36th Parliament, 1st Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 160
CONTENTS
Thursday, November 26, 1998
1005
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PRIVILEGE
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Foreign Affairs and International Trade—Speaker's Ruling
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | The Speaker |
1010
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Randy White |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Fisheries and Oceans
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Charles Hubbard |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Industry
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Walt Lastewka |
1015
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PETITIONS
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Cruelty to Animals
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nelson Riis |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | International Trade
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nelson Riis |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Employment Insurance
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gérard Asselin |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-68
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gérard Asselin |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | TOBACCO ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-42. Third reading
|
1020
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Division on motion deferred
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MARINE CONSERVATION AREAS ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-48. Second reading
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
1025
1030
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
1035
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nelson Riis |
1040
1045
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Antoine Dubé |
1050
1055
1100
1105
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Mitchell |
1110
1115
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvan Bernier |
1120
1125
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Pauline Picard |
1130
1135
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Francine Lalonde |
1140
1145
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. George S. Baker |
1150
1155
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Monique Guay |
1200
1205
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Stoffer |
1210
1215
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
1220
1225
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ghislain Lebel |
1230
1235
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Division on motion deferred
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | FIRST NATIONS LAND MANAGEMENT ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-49. Second reading
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. David Iftody |
1240
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Mike Scott |
1245
1250
1255
1300
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. David Iftody |
1305
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Stoffer |
1310
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Myron Thompson |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Charlie Power |
1315
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chris Axworthy |
1320
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Hart |
1325
1330
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nelson Riis |
1335
1340
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Myron Thompson |
1345
1350
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Roy Bailey |
1355
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | FOREIGN AFFAIRS
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ted McWhinney |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEPATITIS C
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Grant Hill |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PARTNERS IN PEACE
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Richardson |
1400
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HURRICANE MITCH
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE HOMELESS
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Aileen Carroll |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADIAN FARMERS
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Roy Bailey |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADIAN FARMERS
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Wayne Easter |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | JACQUES PARIZEAU
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Robert Bertrand |
1405
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | YEAR 2000
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Philip Mayfield |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MERCHANT MARINE VETERANS
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. René Laurin |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ELECTION CAMPAIGN IN QUEBEC
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Denis Coderre |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADA'S BLOOD SUPPLY
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ELECTION CAMPAIGN IN QUEBEC
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Claude Drouin |
1410
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | JOB CREATION IN MONTREAL
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Francine Lalonde |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | KREVER COMMISSION REPORT
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Diane St-Jacques |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | NATIONAL AIDS AWARENESS WEEK
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Lynn Myers |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | APEC INQUIRY
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Reynolds |
1415
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ST. ANDREW'S SOCIETY
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | AGRICULTURE
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Miss Deborah Grey |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Miss Deborah Grey |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Miss Deborah Grey |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
1420
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | APEC INQUIRY
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Reynolds |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Reynolds |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
1425
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Michel Gauthier |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Michel Gauthier |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Alexa McDonough |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Alexa McDonough |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | AGRICULTURE
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Matthews |
1430
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Matthews |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Monte Solberg |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Monte Solberg |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
1435
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | APEC SUMMIT INQUIRY
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | AGRICULTURE
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Charlie Penson |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Sergio Marchi |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Charlie Penson |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Sergio Marchi |
1440
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | SOCIAL UNION
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Pierre Brien |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Stéphane Dion |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Pierre Brien |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Stéphane Dion |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | AGRICULTURE
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jake E. Hoeppner |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Sergio Marchi |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jake E. Hoeppner |
1445
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Hélène Alarie |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Charles Hubbard |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEALTH
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Grant Hill |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Elinor Caplan |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Grant Hill |
1450
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Elinor Caplan |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | AGRICULTURE
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Dick Proctor |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Rick Laliberte |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | APEC INQUIRY
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Marcel Massé |
1455
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | FOREIGN AFFAIRS
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Sarmite Bulte |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOLDEN WEST DOCUMENT SHREDDING
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Werner Schmidt |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Alfonso Gagliano |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ICE BREAKING POLICY
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yves Rocheleau |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. David Anderson |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | LABOUR MARKET TRAINING
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Pat Martin |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ONTARIO
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Scott Brison |
1500
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Paul Martin |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Randy White |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Don Boudria |
1505
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | FIRST NATIONS LAND MANAGEMENT ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-49. Second reading
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Roy Bailey |
1510
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Jean Augustine |
1515
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gerald Keddy |
1520
1525
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jack Ramsay |
1530
1535
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Division deferred
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MANITOBA CLAIM SETTLEMENTS IMPLEMENTATION ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-56. Second reading
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Bev Desjarlais |
1540
1545
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Derrek Konrad |
1550
1555
1600
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Werner Schmidt |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gerald Keddy |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gerald Keddy |
1605
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Mike Scott |
1610
1615
1620
1625
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. David Iftody |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Stoffer |
1630
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Elinor Caplan |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Charlie Penson |
1635
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | SPECIAL IMPORT MEASURES ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-35. Report stage
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Speaker's Ruling
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland) |
1640
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motions in Amendment
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion No. 1
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Charlie Penson |
1645
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Stoffer |
1650
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. André Bachand |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Tony Valeri |
1655
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Division on Motion No. 1 deferred
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion No. 2
|
1700
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Charlie Penson |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Tony Valeri |
1705
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Division on Motion No. 2 deferred
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion No. 3
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motions Nos. 4, 5 and 6
|
1710
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Charlie Penson |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. André Bachand |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Tony Valeri |
1715
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Division on Motion No. 3 deferred
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Division on Motion No. 4 deferred
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion No. 7
|
1720
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Charlie Penson |
1725
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. André Bachand |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Stoffer |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Tony Valeri |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Division on Motion No. 7 deferred
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Divisions on motions deferred
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | SENATOR SELECTION ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-382. Second reading
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Gilmour |
1730
1735
1740
1745
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Reg Alcock |
1750
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Pierre Brien |
1755
1800
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Pat Martin |
1805
1810
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. André Bachand |
1815
1820
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ken Epp |
1825
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Gilmour |
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Aboriginal Affairs
|
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Bev Desjarlais |
1830
![V](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. David Iftody |
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 160
![](/web/20061116193721im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/crest2.gif)
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Thursday, November 26, 1998
The House met at 10 a.m.
Prayers
1005
PRIVILEGE
FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE—SPEAKER'S RULING
The Speaker: I am now prepared to rule on the
question of privilege raised on Thursday, November 19, 1998 by
the hon. member for Toronto Centre—Rosedale concerning the
publication of a draft report of the Standing Committee on
Foreign Affairs and International Trade on Canada's foreign
policy regarding nuclear weapons.
[Translation]
First, I would like to thank the hon. member for his succinct
and emphatic presentation as well as the hon. members for Fraser
Valley, Beauharnois—Salaberry, Richmond—Arthabaska,
Scarborough—Rouge River and Crowfoot for their valuable
contributions on this question.
[English]
The hon. member for Toronto Centre—Rosedale and several other
members explained that this is, by no means, the first time a
case of this nature has been raised on the floor of the House.
In fact, a case virtually identical to this one was before us
this time last year, to be precise, on December 9, 1997. I noted
at page 2945 of Debates that:
No potential breach of in camera proceedings can be taken up
without a specific allegation of misconduct directed against
particular individuals... a complaint concerning premature
publication of a committee report is incomplete without reference
to a specific source responsible for the disclosure of the
report.
[Translation]
The present case resembles both last year's case as well as a
number of other recent cases where committee reports or draft
reports have been leaked before the committees had presented
their findings to the House.
[English]
Speakers' rulings are consistent in these cases. For example,
Speaker Jerome on June 23, 1977 dealt with the premature
publication of a subcommittee document where the question of
privilege cited a press source for a leak but did not attempt to
identify the source of the leak itself.
The Speaker declined to find the matter of privilege prima facie
because the complaint did not deal with the responsibility of the
House and its members with respect to premature disclosure. At
page 1209 of Journals Speaker Jerome stated: “Since it
misses that point, it misses something I think most important
with respect to the privileges of the House”.
In the case before us today, I must therefore rule, as I have
consistently done in the past, that the matter raised by the hon.
member for Toronto Centre—Rosedale does not constitute a prima
facie matter of privilege. However, that does not mean that the
matter is not a serious one or that no action should be taken.
I would like to remind the House once again of a caution I
issued in dealing with another case of this type on October 9,
1997, at page 689 of Debates:
Members of committees and ministers working with committees have
an obligation to ensure that they themselves and those whose
expertise they seek, be they personal assistants or departmental
officials, respect the confidentiality of their documents and the
integrity of their deliberations.
Committees must address their work processes and be very clear
about how they expect draft reports and other material relating
to in camera meetings to be treated. Everyone present at such
meetings, including officials from departments and agencies, must
realize their obligation to respect the confidentiality of the
proceedings they witness and the material they may therefore be
privy to.
1010
[Translation]
With respect to the present case, it certainly remains open to
the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade
to pursue the question of how their draft report has been dealt
with. Concerning the broader issue raised by the hon. member for
Toronto Centre—Rosedale, it may be that the House or those whom
the House has mandaterd to oversee the practices and procedures
of this place will decide that it is time to examine this
question in its entirety.
[English]
I thank the hon. member for Toronto Centre—Rosedale and all of
the other interveners for raising the matter which I know both
the Chair and the House itself view as one of great seriousness.
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I wish to thank you for
that ruling, which I respect. I wonder if it would be more
efficient and practical if we took it upon ourselves in the House
this morning to refer this issue to the procedure and
House affairs committee so that it may review it and take action
on the issue since it really is not going to go away.
The Speaker: The House can do whatever it wants to do,
but it is not the purview of the Speaker at this point to send
this matter to the procedure and House affairs committee. I am
always in the hands of the House in any case.
Mr. Randy White: Mr. Speaker, I would like to move that
we refer the issue of the privacy and confidentiality of
committee reports to the procedure and House affairs committee.
The Speaker: Does the hon. member have permission to put
the motion to the House?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[Translation]
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant
to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in both
official languages, the government's response to 15 petitions.
* * *
[English]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
FISHERIES AND OCEANS
Mr. Charles Hubbard (Miramichi, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have the honour to present the sixth report of the Standing
Committee on Fisheries and Oceans regarding its order of
reference of Thursday, October 29, 1998 in relation to the
supplementary estimates (B) for the fiscal year ending March 31,
1999 in regard to votes 1(b), 5(b) and 10(b) under fisheries and
oceans.
INDUSTRY
Mr. Walt Lastewka (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Industry, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Standing
Committee on Industry, I have the pleasure and honour to present
its 11th report in accordance with its order of reference from
the House of Commons of Thursday, October 29, 1998. The
committee has considered votes 1(b), 5(b), 20(b), 25(b), 30(b),
35(b), 50(b), 55(b), 70(b), 75(b), 85(b), 90(b), 95(b), 100(b),
110, 115 and 120(b) under Industry in the supplementary estimates
for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1999 and reports the same.
1015
A copy of each of the relevant minutes of proceedings, meeting
74, is tabled and respectfully submitted by the chair, the hon.
member for Essex.
* * *
PETITIONS
CRUELTY TO ANIMALS
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
NDP): Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege for me to present a huge
stack of petitions, probably in the tens of thousands, from
people from Kamloops and other parts of British Columbia
concerned about the unfair treatment of people who carry out acts
of cruelty against animals.
They have a long list of court cases where it has become clear
that individuals have been very cruel to animals and have not
received virtually any sentence at all, a little tap on the
wrist. They feel this is unfair. They point out that the
government consider directing judges to take this issue more
seriously and to consider increasing the penalties for those who
carry out acts of cruelty against animals.
INTERNATIONAL TRADE
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
NDP): Mr. Speaker, I have an additional petition that deals
with international trade. All the petitioners are from Kamloops,
British Columbia. They point out that any future trade agreement
into which Canada may enter ought to include provisions to ensure
actions against child labour and to include environmental
standards and labour standards generally.
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Gérard Asselin (Charlevoix, BQ): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to
Standing Order 36, I am laying before this House today two
petitions signed by several hundred residents of the riding of
Charlevoix.
In the first one, the petitioners call upon the government to
put the surplus accumulated in the employment insurance account
back into the pockets of the unemployed by revoking the current
eligibility rules for new entrants and using surpluses for
training for the unemployed, thereby promoting direct
employment.
In a nutshell, current employment insurance eligibility rules
should be revoked so that more unemployed people can have access
to the plan.
BILL C-68
Mr. Gérard Asselin (Charlevoix, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in the second
petition, gun owners request that the government repeal Bill C-68
and redirect the money being wasted on the licensing and
registering of responsible law-abiding gun owners and their
firearms toward more effective methods of reducing the number of
victims of violent crime.
* * *
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I ask
that all remaining questions be allowed to stand.
The Deputy Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
TOBACCO ACT
The House resumed from November 25 consideration of the motion
that Bill C-42, an act to amend the Tobacco Act, be read the
third time and passed.
The Deputy Speaker: Is the House ready for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Deputy Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to
adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Deputy Speaker: All those in favour of the motion
will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Deputy Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
1020
The Deputy Speaker: In my opinion the yeas have it.
And more than five members having risen:
[Translation]
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, there have been discussions with
representatives of all parties. I believe that you would find
unanimous consent to defer the recorded division requested on
the motion for second reading of Bill C-42 until Tuesday,
December 1, 1998, at the end of the period provided for the
consideration of Government Orders.
The Deputy Speaker: Is it agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Deputy Speaker: Accordingly, the recorded division stands
deferred.
* * *
MARINE CONSERVATION AREAS ACT
The House resumed from November 16 consideration of the motion
that Bill C-48, an act respecting marine conservation areas, be
read the second time and referred to a committee.
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, when the
debate on Bill C-48, an act respecting marine conservation areas,
started at second reading, the Reform Party tabled an amendment
calling for the withdrawal of that bill in its present form.
That amendment was rejected by the majority in this House.
But make no mistake about the meaning of that rejection. Indeed,
during the debate on the amendment, a number of members of this
House clearly condemned, among other things, the serious flaws
of this bill and the phoney consultation process that took
place.
The fact that we rejected the amendment does not mean that we
are prepared to support the bill since, on the face of it, it is
just as unacceptable.
Let us see what this bill is all about.
The purpose of Bill C-48 is to provide a legal framework for the
establishment and eventual development of 28 marine conservation
areas, including eight in Quebec, representing each of the
ecosystems identified to date in Quebec and Canada.
The Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park is the 29th marine
conservation area. However, this park is not included in this
bill because it is covered by ad hoc legislation both in Canada
and in Quebec.
In the preamble to the act, the Minister of Canadian Heritage
states the reasons that led to the establishment of these marine
conservation areas.
The government wants, first, to protect natural, self-regulating
marine ecosystems for the maintenance of biological diversity;
second, to establish a representative system of marine
conservation areas; third, to ensure that Canada contributes to
international efforts for the establishment of a world-wide
network of representative marine areas; fourth, to provide
opportunities for the people of Canada and of the world to
appreciate Canada's natural and cultural marine heritage; and,
fifth, to provide opportunities within marine conservation areas
for the ecologically sustainable use of marine resources for the
lasting benefit of coastal communities.
Clearly, in order to enforce this legislation when it has
obtained royal assent, the federal government would have to
acquire the lands belonging to Quebec or to the other provinces
affected by this plan to establish marine conservation areas.
Paragraph (2) of clause 5 of the bill provides that the minister
may create a marine conservation area “only if the Governor in
Council is satisfied that clear title to the lands to be
included in the marine conservation area is vested in Her
Majesty in right of Canada, excluding any such lands situated
within the exclusive economic zone of Canada”. On the very face
of it, this bill does not respect the integrity of Quebec's
territory.
How can the Government of Canada think for one moment that the
Government of Quebec will hand over ownership of the ocean floor
of marine conservation areas that it is thinking of developing
within the territory of Quebec?
How can the Government of Canada be unaware, or pretend to be
unaware, of paragraph (5) of section 92 of the Constitution Act,
1867, which recognizes clearly that the management and sale of
public lands is an area of exclusively provincial jurisdiction?
What makes the Government of Canada so ignorant, or so arrogant,
that it fails to recognize that Quebec legislation on crown
lands, passed by the Quebec National Assembly, applies to all
crown lands in Quebec, including beds of waterways and lakes and
the bed of the St. Lawrence River, estuary and gulf, which
belong to Quebec by sovereign right?
1025
How could the Government of Canada be so ignorant as to not know
that under Quebec legislation the province cannot cede its land
to the federal government? It knows full well that, within this
legal framework, all the Government of Quebec can do is issue an
order permitting the federal government to use Quebec crown
lands, including the marine floor, only when the federal
government restricts its action to its own areas of
jurisdiction.
According to the notes provided us by the Minister of Canadian
Heritage with regard to Bill C-48, marine conservation areas are
planned for the St. Lawrence, the St. Lawrence estuary and the
Gulf of St. Lawrence. These are three areas in which the marine
floor is under Quebec's jurisdiction.
Why is the Government of Canada trying again with a bill to
invade Quebec jurisdiction? Why is this government, which
should be acting for the good of the population, refusing yet
again to follow the legislative process that worked so well in
the establishment and management of the Saguenay—St. Lawrence
park?
Why is this government refusing to again use the bilateral
agreement process that worked so well in the case of the St.
Lawrence?
Why not sign an agreement like the St. Lawrence action plan,
phase III, which was signed by all federal and provincial
departments concerned, and which provides for an investment of
$250 million, over a period of five years, in various activities
relating to the St. Lawrence River.
Why is the Department of Canadian Heritage acting with such
arrogance this time, by claiming to own the marine floor where
it wants to create marine conservation areas, instead of
resorting to bilateral agreements with the Quebec government and
thus avoiding having Canada once again trample Quebec's areas of
jurisdiction?
By refusing to follow the example of the Saguenay—St. Lawrence
Marine Park Act and by making ownership of the territory an
essential condition for the creation of marine conservation
areas, the federal government is behaving, as Robert Bourassa
used to say, like a centralizing government that wants control
over everything, regardless of recognized jurisdictions.
If ridicule killed, the government would be six feet under by
now. Members will want to listen carefully to this. Not
satisfied with invading the jurisdiction of a neighbouring
government—Quebec—with Bill C-48, the federal government is
invading its own jurisdiction and creating overlaps within its
own administration. Let us look at how ridiculous that is.
Through the Department of Canadian Heritage, the government
plans to create marine conservation areas.
Through the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, it has already
created marine protected areas.
Through the Department of the Environment, it wants to create
marine wildlife reserves.
It should be noted that a single site could find itself
protected under more than one category.
In short, the federal government, which claims to have met all
of Quebec's demands, and which states in its Speech from the
Throne that it is putting an end to overlap and to interference
in areas of provincial jurisdiction, has now found a way to
divide itself into three components and to actually overlap
itself, so as to be absolutely certain to meddle, in one way or
another, in areas that come under the jurisdiction of Quebec and
the other provinces.
After looking at how Heritage Canada went about consulting on
its draft bill and at the results of that consultation, the Bloc
Quebecois concluded that the exercise was a miserable failure
and that it was really too bad that, with all the resources at
the minister's disposal, she did not see fit to conduct real
consultations, which would have made all the flaws in the bill
apparent to her. Despite this disastrous failure, Heritage
Canada boasts that it has public support for the bill. What a
sorry farce.
If ecosystems are to be protected effectively, the Government of
Canada must have the co-operation of coastal communities. The
Bloc Quebecois urges the government to find workable solutions
to the economic woes of coastal communities, if it hopes one day
to reach an agreement with them on protecting the environment.
Its partnership initiative with the Government of Quebec should
have served as a model to the federal government for the
creation of other marine conservation areas. Rather than
demonstrating open-mindedness and co-operation, the federal
government is still taking an arrogant, aggressive, invasive
approach that overlaps other jurisdictions and that is hardly
calculated to encourage us to work with them another time.
Obviously, the Bloc Quebecois is against the bill, mainly for
the following reasons.
Instead of relying on dialogue, as in the case of the
Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park, the federal government wants
to create marine conservation areas irrespective of Quebec's
jurisdiction with regard to the protection of its territory and
environment.
1030
Second, the Department of Canadian Heritage is proposing the
establishment of a new structure, the marine conservation areas,
which will duplicate Fisheries and Oceans' protected areas and
Environment Canada's protected marine areas.
When things are running smoothly, the Government of Canada tries
throwing a wrench in the works, sometimes in the form of
baseball bats or pepper spray. This government prefers to stir
up trouble, ill feelings and even discontent in the population.
It does not understand that Quebeckers have had it with these
arrogant policies that cost a fortune.
I am confident that the people will let them know that
unequivocally on November 30.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would
like to respond to statements made by some of my distinguished
colleagues to the effect that Bill C-48 infringes on provincial
jurisdiction, in Quebec and the other provinces, over the
seabed. Nothing could be further from the truth.
With respect to marine areas surrounding Quebec, there is one
area where the seabed clearly falls under provincial
jurisdiction and that is the St. Lawrence estuary. A special
agreement and matching legislation have been developed for the
Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park, which encompasses this area. I
dare say this was a fine example of co-operation, both within
this House and between our respective governments.
In the other marine areas surrounding Quebec, jurisdiction over
the seabed is either clearly federal or disputed by the two
levels of government, that is the Canadian government and the
Province of Quebec.
In Bill C-48, we are proposing the establishment of marine
conservation areas where the federal government has jurisdiction
over the seabed, based on current possession or a
federal-provincial agreement.
Jurisdiction over the seabed in a specific area may be disputed.
But that is a different mater entirely. The purpose of this bill
is not to resolve such disputes.
We have no intention of acting unilaterally in an area under
dispute. This must be clearly understood. Saying otherwise would
be misleading the House.
Ideally, any dispute concerning jurisdiction over the seabed
should be resolved before a marine conservation area is
established.
We would have consultations to find a mutually acceptable
solution. In some cases, it is possible that the marine region
may be represented by another area where jurisdiction over the
marine floor is not at issue.
Again, contrary to what was repeatedly claimed in this House by
Bloc Quebecois members, we have absolutely no intention of
acting unilaterally in a region where the marine floor is at
issue. Let us be clear on this.
We are already using the model proposed in the bill. Following
the federal-provincial memorandum of understanding signed in
March 1997 with the Government of Ontario, we are now jointly
looking at the possibility of establishing a marine conservation
area in the western part of Lake Superior.
We are also working with the province of Newfoundland and
Labrador on a feasibility study for a marine conservation area
in the Bonavista and Notre Dame Bay areas.
That study was initiated following the signing of a
federal-provincial memorandum of understanding, in February 1997.
Moreover, the MOU on the Pacific marine heritage legacy signed
with British Columbia in 1995 provides that the two levels of
government must undertake a joint feasibility study for a marine
conservation area in the southern part of the Strait of Georgia.
Following these studies, if the governments come to the
conclusion that a marine conservation area can be established,
the next step will be the negotiation of an agreement between
the Canadian government and the province concerned. Such an
agreement would include the terms and conditions under which the
marine conservation area would be established, including
provisions on the transfer to the Canadian government of all
submerged provincial lands, if necessary.
1035
Such federal-provincial agreements are already in place for the
creation of marine conservation areas in Fathom Five, Georgian
Bay, Ontario and in Gwaii Haanas, Queen Charlotte Islands,
British Columbia.
This shows that a good number of provinces are collaborating in
a concept of marine conservation areas that is compatible with
the provisions in this bill.
The model underlying Bill C-48, that is ownership of the land by
the Government of Canada, is clearly necessary when the
Government of Canada already owns the land.
That is the intent of the bill.
Our experience with the agreements and feasibility studies on
marine conservation areas already described shows that the model
proposed in this bill is entirely reasonable and pertinent,
whether those holding the contrary view like it or not.
On this note, I move:
[English]
Mr. Nelson Riis: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
clarification. Are we debating the contents of Bill C-48 or the
motion that has been put forward?
The Deputy Speaker: We are debating the contents of Bill
C-48. The motion is for the previous question, which means that
when debate is concluded on this motion, the motion will be put
that the question be now put. If it is carried then the question
will be immediately put and no further amendments are permitted.
I hope that clarifies it for the hon. member for Kamloops,
Thompson and Highland Valleys.
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am glad I sought that clarification. I
was somewhat confused earlier but I am no longer, essentially.
I appreciate having an opportunity to speak to Bill C-48, an act
respecting marine conservation areas. I want to say at the
outset that the legislation establishes and manages a system of
national marine conservation areas known as NMCAs which are
representative of the 29 marine areas of Canada. The 29 national
marine conservation areas represent a unique biological and a
unique set of oceanographic features.
These areas include fresh and salt waters. The Parks Canada
systems approach has identified the 29 NMCAs within Canada's
Great Lakes, internal waters which are tidal and the territorial
sea as an exclusive economic zone limit, which is the 200 mile
limit.
1040
The debate through second reading stage has revealed many
deficiencies in the legislation as presently proposed. We in the
New Democratic Party agree there are problems with the bill. As
parliamentarians it is our duty to correct errors as we see them
and to act on behalf of Canadians to improve legislation. It is
in that spirit that I will make a number of comments. We want to
enhance the bill. We are not opposing it. We certainly approve
it in principle with a great deal of enthusiasm. It is in that
context that I make my comments this morning.
This is a fitting year to begin the protection of Canada's 29
representative marine areas since 1998 is the year of the oceans.
As Canadians we know there are problems with our oceans which
include such things as the impact of pollution in a variety of
forms, the reality of overfishing, disappearing fish stocks and
general fishing mismanagement. We have witnessed the devastation
of coastal communities on both the east and west coasts. There
are problems on the north coast and problems in the inland water
system.
I say with some regret that evidence suggests the Department of
Fisheries and Oceans has largely mismanaged this resource, which
is indeed unfortunate. I am not enough aware of the situation to
comment on how this mismanagement occurred, but based on the
report of the standing committee on fisheries it is well
documented that mismanagement has led to some very serious
problems on all our coasts including the waters within Canada.
We also know there are problems with our Great Lakes as well as
with other inland waters in terms of pollution and mismanagement.
This is reflected in the recent revelations of the Standing
Committee on Fisheries and Oceans in its freshwater fisheries
report in particular.
Bill C-48 is a step forward in securing coastal and inland
waters for future generations and in ensuring they are in a
relatively pristine state for future generations. We agree that
while there are deficiencies in the legislation—and I will point
out some of them in a moment—this step toward marine area
conservation is too important to dismiss simply for partisan
purposes or rhetoric, as I am afraid to say we have heard in the
previous debate.
Bill C-48 should be considered as an important step toward the
next century. Our country's present day grievous mistakes and
mismanagement are recognized. We can learn from them and, more
important as the legislation may reflect, we can act upon them.
As parliamentarians we must act on behalf of all citizens of the
country to ensure this enabling legislation provides the best
options for future generations and for Canadian communities in
general.
We will continue to support Bill C-48 in principle. However I
will make the following points which we would like to see
addressed in the ongoing debate, in particular in committee, in
terms of securing our support for the process throughout.
The consultation efforts so far must be explored in depth during
the committee hearings. These included 3,000 mail-outs and
approximately 300 responses which were received by Parks Canada.
Upon perusing these responses one recognizes there are serious
concerns on the cost recovery aspects of the legislation. There
is a compelling need for a better definition of proposed cost
recovery measures.
We recognize that access to national marine conservation areas
for local communities and fishers must be maintained. This is a
crucial element. We must recognize that consideration of and
effective measures for ecotourism opportunities must be included
in the final legislation. It is fair to say that ecotourism is
one of the leading edges of the tourism sector in Canada. We
feel strongly about recognizing the attractiveness of the
national marine conservation areas for people interested in
ecotourism. We look forward to seeing that appropriate access
included in the legislation.
Better descriptions and delineation of core areas of the NMCAs
regarding preservation, protection and regulation are important
as is the need for a two year reporting period rather than the
five years proposed.
We are moving into a new area and reviewing this on a two-year
basis makes more sense.
1045
We also feel strongly that first nations rights and a better
explanation and delineation of “reserves” must include full
participation of all first nations people. This could perhaps
follow the consultation and management design procedures used
with respect to the Saguenay—St. Lawrence Marine Park. We hold
it as a good template for future consultations involving these
kinds of initiatives.
The issue of a joint provincial-federal management and
jurisdiction group will require co-operative measures between
parties and governments to ensure provincial land and resource
rights are not compromised.
The effect on proposed NMCAs in the Nunavut lands ought to be
considered with seriousness. We need to address the question of
the use of NMCAs to include a reference to conservation methods
and ecological principles. Both are fundamental in terms of our
support and I suspect they are reflected in the general thrust of
the legislation.
Commercial fishers must be fully involved in the designation and
parks management design to ensure there is a working
relationship. On both our coasts this is obviously an issue of
great sensitivity, but it is something we feel can be easily
managed and incorporated into either the legislation or
subsequent rights.
The impact of river systems on the NMCAs will require adequate
resources for marine sciences and ecosystem modelling. There is
also provincial co-operation and the degree that crown lands and
subsurface rights may or not impact the success of the program.
We want to be sensitive about that particular interface.
As mentioned by my colleagues, the no-take zones must be clearly
defined and allow for adaptation in future years. This must be
written into enabling legislation which would be acceptable for
future needs. Mr. Speaker, I know you yourself feel strongly
about the no-take zones issue.
Regional concerns were also mentioned in the various responses.
In particular west coast concerns will require different
considerations and much flexibility as compared to the east coast
concerns. We understand and I know my friend the secretary of
state appreciates the differences between the east coast concerns
and west coast concerns and the obvious differences between the
two coasts when it comes to the central fisheries issues as well
the conservation areas issues.
The coastal co-ordination between the different departments
involved must be defined. A clear, and I emphasize clear,
definition between Environment Canada's responsibilities for
wildlife and ecosystems adjacent to the NMCAs, Parks Canada's
authority to question and if necessary to veto Department of
Fisheries and Oceans decisions in management of these areas
resources and a clear delineation of the Department of Fisheries
and Oceans responsibilities are all requirements we ought to
consider before the legislation returns to the House.
This may sound a little negative about the DFO. Based on its
past record on sensitivity in its involvement, it has not
necessarily always been in a productive and positive way. This
explains some of the nuances and points that I am making.
I do not think this has to be prolonged. We support the
legislation. We certainly support the principle
enthusiastically. We hope that with the consideration of some of
the points I raised in my presentation that we can see the rapid
and expeditious movement of the legislation through the House as
well as through the other place.
[Translation]
Mr. Antoine Dubé (Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
having been involved in recreation in Quebec for a number of
years, I have always been interested in any project involving
nature conservation.
I also spent seven years as an assistant to former Quebec
fisheries minister Garon, and I have clear memories of his
battles with his counterparts, including Mr. De Bané, who has
since been appointed to the Senate. At that same time, someone
who subsequently became Governor General was involved in epic
struggles while discussing ownership and jurisdiction issues in
relation to the ocean floor, river bed and waterways.
1050
The member for Ottawa—Vanier did not seem to understand the
opposition expressed by the member for Rimouski—Mitis with regard
to Bill C-48. I will just say to him that we have good reason to
get cold feet, and it is not even a play on words when we are
talking about the St. Lawrence and the Atlantic because the
water there has always been and will continue to be cold. The
federal government has forced us to become more and more
distrustful in these areas.
Just consider the fact that three different departments are
involved in marine areas. In this bill, the Minister of Canadian
Heritage talks about marine conservation areas.
We also have marine protected areas that fall under the
jurisdiction of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, and
marine reserves that fall under the jurisdiction of the
Department of the Environment.
Marine areas, marine protected areas and marine reserves, which
come under three different federal departments. They all have
lofty goals, but it all depends on the attitude and the intent.
The member for Ottawa—Vanier said a few moments ago that the
Liberals brought forward this legislation to give the federal
government some authority over marine areas, but they do not
intend to intervene as they did in Mirabel and Forillon Park,
for example. We know where that lead to in some cases in Quebec
and elsewhere, particularly in the maritimes.
When the federal government interferes in a particular area, it
does so forcefully as if it were the superior government in
Canada, whereas in the initial spirit of Confederation, the
federal government was supposed to harmonize its policies with
those of the provinces. At that time, it was not seen as a
superior government that gave orders to other governments, but
rather as a government that wanted to work with them.
I spoke earlier with the member for Chicoutimi about how we
recently witnessed a good example of partnership. Two levels of
government worked together toward the same goal, namely the
conservation and protection of marine wildlife and of the
shores, since one has to go by land to get to a marine area.
That partnership led to the creation of the Saguenay—St. Lawrence
marine park in 1997.
The mistrust on this side is based on the federal government's
past behaviour. Give them a foot, they will take a yard. That is
part of the problem.
The hon. member for Ottawa—Vanier said earlier “We will usually
focus on land owned by the federal government or squarely under
federal jurisdiction”. It would be hard to prevent it from doing
so. However, jurisdiction over several areas is being disputed,
mostly by the federal government, but also by provinces that
wish to protect their territory from invasion. Section 92 of the
Constitution clearly stipulates that the bottom of the river and
other waterways are a provincial area of jurisdiction.
1055
All the governments in Quebec, whether they were led by
federalists or sovereignists, took the same position and said
“We will not let our jurisdiction be infringed upon
unchallenged”. Although, in this case, the goal is laudable, and
we do support conservation, too often the federal government has
taken this kind of opportunity to infringe upon provincial areas
of jurisdiction, especially those of Quebec.
What good is a statement of good intentions from a member who is
not yet a minister, who represents a minister at some committee,
and tells the House that they have no intention of doing that.
Really. It is so easy for the government to make such statements
and then try to pull a fast one on us.
In Quebec we are very sceptical about this.
I believe the government should start its consultations all over
again. I was not a member of the committee. The member for
Rimouski—Mitis is more familiar with this issue since she is the
Bloc critic in this area. She told us about the kind of
consultations that took place. When only 5% of those invited to
the consultation show up, when only 60 out of the 300 pages in
the report are handed out, one has to wonder. From what we could
see, there were very few witnesses from Quebec. There are very
few submissions in French.
The bill is premature, improvised or badly put together. It
leaves too much room for interpretation and legal challenge.
Nothing in this bill tells us the federal government is going to
abide by the good intentions mentioned by the member for
Ottawa—Vanier. This is simply not enough for us, in the House.
Words are quick and vain, we will need to get that in writing.
Laws remain and we know they are followed by regulations that
clarify them. This is often how we can be had.
At second reading stage, I too would like to say that we oppose
the bill. We believe it is one more federal threat against
Quebec. It is aimed at encroaching on Quebec's territory. As
Quebeckers, we cannot allow it.
Mr. Michel Guimond
(Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
it is a great pleasure to speak to this bill, especially since,
as the Bloc Quebecois transport critic, this subject is of
particular concern to me.
We all know—members of Parliament and viewers alike—that
shipping and environmental protection are closely linked if not
intertwined. Immense container ships are now being built in
Korea that can carry some 5,000 or 5,500 containers, I believe.
There are two major container ports in Canada. The port of
Montreal and the port of Halifax.
Halifax is number two. It is not too happy about this, but the
strategic position of the port of Montreal has made it, over the
years, the hub of container transport.
Members will understand what I am getting at regarding this
bill. From the time the Bloc Quebecois arrived here in 1993
with 54 members—there were nine founding members—we have supported
mandatory pilotage in Canada.
1100
I am, of course, talking about pilotage on the St. Lawrence and
the Great Lakes, but also across Canada, because there are
mandatory pilotage zones in the Pacific region and in other
regions of the maritimes.
Why? Not because we wanted to be outrageous or for the pleasure
of it, but we were wondering whether Canada could afford a
second Exxon Valdez, given what had happened in Alaska.
With today's constraints in shipping, vessels are ever bigger
and their cargo is ever more dangerous.
If these foreign and Canadian vessels cannot be guided in by
experienced pilots, the risks to the environment are
considerable. The shipping lobby in Canada is very powerful,
financially speaking, because the major shipping companies
contribute to the campaign funds of the Liberal and Progressive
Conservative parties.
An hon. member: So do the banks.
Mr. Michel Guimond: Yes. My colleague just said that the banks
do so, too. Ten minutes is not enough for me to get into that.
An hon. member: The list is too long.
Mr. Michel Guimond: That is absolutely right.
Mr. Bob Kilger: You should move along; you only have 10
minutes.
Mr. Michel Guimond: The government whip just reminded me that I
have only 10 minutes and that I should move along. Of course.
The members of the Bloc Quebecois want to reiterate that,
although we are against the bill—we have our reasons, and our
colleague, the member for Rimouski—Mitis, expressed our party's
position clearly—we want no misunderstanding, no misleading
statements—we know that our neighbours opposite make such claims
regularly—to the effect that the Bloc Quebecois is against
protection of the environment. Absolutely not.
The Bloc Quebecois reaffirms its position. It is a clear one.
We are in favour of measures to protect the environment.
Why then are we against this bill? We feel that the bill is not
based on dialogue, as was the case with the Saguenay—St. Lawrence
marine park. My colleague, the member for
Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, pointed out quite rightly that there
had been dialogue in that case.
Allow me to digress briefly to say a few words about this
dialogue. I am pleased to see that, in spite of the Canadian
heritage minister's intransigent attitude and proverbial
arrogance, it is the government led by Lucien Bouchard and the
Parti Québécois that signed the documents establishing the
Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Michel Guimond: Thank you.
An hon. member: And it will be re-elected.
Mr. Michel Guimond: Yes, it will be re-elected on November 30.
This shows how, with a Quebec government that can hold its own
against and is taken seriously by the rest of Canada, mutually
satisfactory agreements can be reached. That is not
confrontation.
Let me remind you of what Jean Charest was saying in the early
days of his campaign, when he was making very harsh remarks
about the Prime Minister of Canada, the hon. member for
Saint-Maurice; those were the words of a man who does not want to
come to an agreement.
The PQ government is willing to sit down and negotiate those
agreements that benefit the people of Quebec.
Instead of relying on dialogue, as it did with the marine park,
the federal government is trying to establish marine
conservation areas in spite of Quebec's jurisdiction over its
territory and the environment.
Again, let me come back to this. As much as it pains me, this is
the style of the Minister of Canadian Heritage and member for
Hamilton East; it is her pattern, her approach.
1105
This is a person who should be acting like a lady, but uses
abusive language instead and hurls insults left and right in
this place. That is unfortunate. How can we have a dialogue and
reach any agreement with a person who does not want to? It takes
two to tango, as we say. It is hard to tango when your partner
will not even step onto the dance floor.
The minister is promoting confrontation instead of dialogue, as
evidenced by Bill C-48. This is the pattern; nothing has
changed, this is how it always is with this heritage minister.
Therefore, we have no choice but to oppose this bill.
The second reason the Bloc Quebecois is opposed to this bill is
because Heritage Canada is proposing to establish a new
structure, marine conservation areas, which will duplicate
Fisheries and Oceans Canada's marine protected areas and
Environment Canada's marine protection zones. Simply put, the
federal government is using three departments to infringe upon
areas under Quebec's jurisdiction.
I would like to hear from members of other parties who represent
Quebec. The Bloc Quebecois has 45 members here, but there are
another 30 or so from other parties who also represent Quebec. I
would like to hear what the four remaining Conservative members
from Quebec think of this bill, which infringes upon Quebec's
jurisdictions.
In conclusion, Heritage Canada is clearly acting arrogantly by
claiming ownership of the sea floor where it would like to
establish marine conservation areas.
We suggested that Quebec and Ottawa reach bilateral agreements
to allow, among other things, Quebec to keep its jurisdictions.
Why will the federal government not sit at the table and talk?
It is possible to reach an agreement. The Saguenay—St. Lawrence
marine park is a model.
The federal government prefers to trample on Quebec's
jurisdictions. The Bloc Quebecois will never support a bill that
does not respect Quebec's jurisdictions. This is the reason why
Quebeckers elected 54 Bloc Quebecois members in 1993.
A few days
before the June 2, 1997 election, the current Quebec Liberal
Party leader and former leader of the Progressive Conservative
Party had promised, with a hand on his heart, to get 40
Conservative members elected in Quebec. He will have a hard time
getting 40 Liberal MNAs elected on November 30.
It is for these reasons that I am convinced Quebeckers will
re-elect a PQ government on November 30.
[English]
Hon. Andy Mitchell (Secretary of State (Parks), Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am glad to have an opportunity to participate in the
debate and deal with some of the issues the Bloc has raised,
particularly the critic who made the original intervention, the
member for Rimouski—Mitis, who has worked hard with our
department on a number of issues to try to enhance our protection
of special places in this country.
I am very disappointed to hear the Bloc's opposition to this
bill. The previous speaker from the Bloc tried to suggest to
Canadians and Canadians in Quebec that it is not opposing an
environmental bill, legislation that will help protect our marine
ecosystems.
1110
People should be absolutely clear that they are opposing just
that type of legislation, they are opposing the protection of the
marine environments in that part of the country. Why are they
opposing it? They are opposing it because they put up a
situation that does not reflect the reality of what this bill
would do or reflect the reality of the conditions as they exist
today.
As the member for Rimouski—Mitis said, there are eight
potential marine conservation areas around the province of
Quebec. I believe six of those areas are exclusively federal
jurisdiction and the province of Quebec accepts that. There is no
issue about infringing on provincial rights or provincial
prerogatives. Those are accepted by all parties, by the province
and federal government, as being exclusively federal.
When parks are established in that area, even though they are
federal, as has been our practice in the past, we will consult
with our host communities and the host province, but they are
clearly federal jurisdiction.
There are situations where the jurisdiction could be provincial
and I think we should look at the record when that situation
existed. When we went to Ontario to establish Fathom Five, a
marine conservation area, the first one in Canada, we worked with
the provincial government and came to agreement with the
provincial government. We are working today in British Columbia
in Gwaii Haanas. Again we work with the province and have come
to an agreement with it.
We are working in terms of some feasibility studies, one in my
hon. colleague's riding of Gander—Grand Falls. It is the same
thing when we are working in the straits in British Columbia.
When we worked in an area of the province of Quebec where there
was clearly provincial jurisdiction, as we have with the other
provinces, we developed a model to work in that area. That model
was reflected with the Sagenauy-St. Lawrence bill.
The suggestions by the Bloc that this legislation is somehow a
massive intrusion on provincial authority is just not consistent
with the facts. Not only is it not consistent with the facts, if
one looks at the practices that have been carried out by Parks
Canada one will find that is not consistent with what is actually
taking place. They are creating a controversy, a reason to
oppose, and that reason is not based on the reality of the
situation today.
It is very disappointing to see in the House that they are
taking a piece of legislation which will help protect the
environment, the special places of the marine ecosystems around
that province, as they are around the rest of the country, and
for parochial reasons that have absolutely no basis in fact they
are going to throw away or oppose this very important piece of
environmental legislation.
It is really disconcerting to see them do that. It is
disconcerting to see them fighting a provincial election on the
floor of this House and to find excuses for opposing an important
piece of legislation. They know full well this legislation does
not infringe on provincial jurisdiction.
They know full well it has been our practice in the past to work
with the provincial governments in establishing marine
conservation areas. The hon. member from Vanier made it very
clear that was going to continue to be the policy of Parks Canada
and of heritage Canada. They are simply creating opposition
based on something that is not a fact, that is not true.
1115
It is important that all Canadians understand that. It is
particularly important for those Canadians who live in the
province of Quebec to understand clearly that Bloc members in the
House are opposing a piece of legislation which will help protect
the environment of that area of the country. They are opposed to
it for reasons that are simply not as they state. This is not an
infringement on provincial jurisdiction. I thought that point
needed to be made.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvan Bernier (Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, I generally say that I am pleased to speak on a
bill, but today I must say the emotion I am experiencing in
taking part in this debate is anger. I hope that the hon.
members across the way will open their ears.
The hon. member who has just spoken claims we enjoy land
squabbles, any old squabble. He was unable to prove legally
that what the hon. member for Rimouski—Mitis says is untrue.
I will give him two more good reasons for understanding common
sense. I will try to avoid references to the provincial
election, since I know that gives members opposite hives.
The hon. member will, however, have a clear understanding, from
the reasons I am going to give him, of why Quebeckers are going
to choose a Parti Quebecois government.
The first reason, and this is indecent, is that they come here
boasting of wanting to establish marine conservation areas via
Heritage Canada. We have been living through a fisheries
crisis, one that is still going on. Do members think the
Liberal Party of Canada could be re-elected if it were to traipse
around Newfoundland or Nova Scotia telling people “Well,
gentlemen, we are going to protect your marine areas”. But who
is taking care of the fishers who have lost their livelihood?
Who is taking care of the plant workers who have lost
everything? Who?
It is an absolute shame. If I were a Liberal, I would be
ashamed to show my face again in the maritimes on the weekends.
I would be concerned for my safety.
I can understand wanting to protect everything from the marine
floor up. But in between there are no fishers, no plant workers.
All this to protect one species or take tourists on a boat ride.
This is all very well, but what tourists will see on their
arrival on the coast will be hungry people with nothing to eat,
people who will have lost the dignity work brings. This is
unconscionable. What members opposite are saying is downright
asinine.
Second, when the government comes up with something intelligent
I try to co-operate. We did it in the past. One of the most
recent legislation we passed regarding fisheries and oceans was
the Canada Oceans Act. One of the main thrusts of the bill was
to put an end to the confusion in the management of fisheries;
the fisheries minister was ordered to assume the lead role in
managing all ecosystems.
This bill, which has been enacted, ordered the ministers to talk
to each other. However Fisheries and Oceans was still to be the
lead department for everything concerning our waters.
I do not
understand how the Liberal Party, the current government, can
contradict itself by allowing the heritage minister to create
more marine conservation areas. I remind the House of the
existence of three different names. With have the Department of
Canadian Heritage's marine conservation areas; the Department of
Fisheries and Oceans' marine protected areas, and Environment
Canada's protected offshore areas. All of them talk about
conservation.
You will easily understand why fishers and plant workers are so
desperate since every single time the government attempts to
protect or manage something, the results are disastrous.
A case in point is the collapse of the groundfish fisheries.
I urge the government. If it is really serious about preserving
marine resources, the heritage minister should keep her hands
off it.
1120
DFO's biologists failed in their attempt to protect our cod.
Imagine what the heritage minister's bureaucrats will do. I am
scared.
I would be ashamed if I were in the Liberals' shoes this
morning. What will the Liberals from the maritimes do? I have a
lot of respect for my colleagues who are not afraid to speak in
the House, but I have not seen one member from the maritimes
rise to defend this bill. I am telling them they should get out
through the back door. It is ridiculous. There is no excuse.
What will they do when they go back home? Christmas is fast
approaching. There are just two weeks left before we adjourn.
Those people will go back home and say “Well, gentlemen, we
protected your ecosystem and, thanks to us, everything will be
fine”. But what will they answer when someone stops them on the
street and says “Could I have a Christmas present like everybody
else? Will I have something to eat this Christmas”? It is a
shame.
There were 40,000 people who benefited from TAGS. The government
abandoned 20,000 of them, and it gave a cash payment to the
other 20,000 and told them to go home and shut up.
With this bill, the Liberals are saying that they want to
protect marine resources, but nobody is protecting these
workers, nobody is protecting our fishers. It is really a shame.
[English]
I would like to say some words in English because I have some
friends in Newfoundland and Nova Scotia. I would like to address some
comments to those people.
I would like to be sure that fishermen will call their members
in their areas today and the next day to be sure that those
members remember that nobody protects fishermen and plant workers
now. They have to make those calls. It is incredible. We
cannot let the minister do this in the fisheries areas.
[Translation]
Things never change. This is an unprecedented attack against
provincial areas of jurisdiction. Despite what the parliamentary
secretary may say, there is a conflict. When we want to solve
problems, we need dialogue.
I liked what my colleague, the hon. member from
Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, said
earlier, namely that you have to be two to tango and that he had
the feeling that he was dancing alone. I have the feeling that
the heritage minister wants to tango, but she is stepping on our
toes. This is much worse than someone who does not want to dance
with a partner. She might do better sitting this one out.
What should the government have done? We saw the squabbling that
went on last summer.
If the minister really wanted to protect the resource, why did
she not insist in cabinet that the government, through the
fisheries minister, decide once and for all how the resource
will be shared among the provinces? Because there were squabbles
all summer long.
I remind the House that Canada is part of an international
management system called NAFO. Under that system, once
scientific data are received, since the method for calculating
total allowable catches is already known, every country
transmits its biological data and, in the end, quotas are
established, because they are pre-established as a percentage,
taking into account the history of each member country and
proximity to the resource.
Such discussions would get things going between Canadians and
Quebeckers and we would stop squabbling. Instead of doing that,
the government introduces a bill that will turn everything
upside down.
No one here in this House is defending workers at this time, and
this is unacceptable. I may have an opportunity to repeat again,
because I do not recall what stage the bill is at right now.
An hon. member: Second reading.
Mr. Yvan Bernier: Oh good, it will be coming back.
Someone has to put a stop to this farce. This will never bring
peace.
1125
Members should try to imagine, just for one moment, that the
Minister of Canadian Heritage, tomorrow morning, goes to
Shelburne, in Nova Scotia, or to Cap-aux-Meules on the Magdalen
Islands and says “We will probably establish a conservation area
in this region”. I truly hope that everyone on the islands is
asleep on that day, otherwise I could not guarantee the
minister's personal safety. After the whole industry has
collapsed, it is unacceptable for the government to tell people
that it intends to protect fish and that they have no say on the
issue. This is utter nonsense.
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to
rise to speak at second reading of Bill C-48, an act respecting
marine conservation areas, and the amendment proposed by the
Reform Party. We will not support the bill, and I will explain
why.
First, instead of relying on dialogue, as in the case of the
Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park, the federal government wants
to create marine conservation areas, regardless of the fact that
Quebec has jurisdiction over the protection of its territory and
over environmental matters.
Second, the Department of Canadian Heritage is proposing the
establishment of a new structure, the marine conservation areas,
that will duplicate the marine protected areas of the Department
of Fisheries and Oceans, and Environment Canada's protected
marine areas.
In short, the federal government, which claims to have met all
of Quebec's demands, and which states in its Speech from the
Throne that it is putting an end to overlap and to interference
in areas of provincial jurisdiction, has now found a way to
divide itself into three components and to actually overlap
itself, so as to be absolutely certain to meddle, in one way or
another, in areas that come under the jurisdiction of Quebec and
the other provinces.
One of the conditions essential to the establishment of a marine
conservation area is federal ownership of the land where the
conservation area will be established. Bill C-48 fails to respect
the integrity of the territory of Quebec and the other
provinces.
This is another example of interference and duplication. As my
colleague from Berthier—Montcalm was saying, the situation is
especially complex in Canada, and even more so when bodies of
water are involved.
I will tell you a story. A fisherman wants to go fishing on the
St. Lawrence River. So far, so good. This fisherman has to ask
the provincial government for a fishing licence. He will go
fishing in a rowboat he bought in Quebec, on which of course he
paid federal and provincial taxes. In order to launch his
rowboat, he needs a federal registration.
Before launching his rowboat, he gets ready on the shore of the
river. He is on a territory under Quebec jurisdiction since the
shores come under provincial jurisdiction. However, the moment
he launches his rowboat, he changes jurisdiction since his
rowboat is now on water, which comes under federal jurisdiction.
However, for clarity, I must say that the bottom of the river is
still under provincial jurisdiction. The fish that swims in the
water and that the fisherman will try to catch is under federal
jurisdiction.
But its friend, the crab, which is crawling on the bottom of the
river, is under shared jurisdiction, even though the bottom of
the river is still under provincial jurisdiction.
The fish swimming in the water comes under federal jurisdiction.
But, once it is caught and lying at the bottom of the rowboat,
it comes under provincial jurisdiction. Due attention will then
have to be paid to regulations, because there are federal quotas
for that kind of fish.
Moreover, if this is commercial fishing, there are federal and
provincial laws and regulations with regard to food, the
environment, public health, equipment and so on.
As if things were not complicated enough, Bill C-48 creates
overlap within the federal administration itself. This makes no
sense.
1130
Three federal departments will drag their standards into an area
of provincial jurisdiction, creating overlap in an already
thoroughly complicated situation. It borders on the absurd.
Through Heritage Canada, the federal government intends to
create marine conservation areas. Through the Department of
Fisheries and Oceans, the federal government has already created
marine protection zones. Through Environment Canada, the
federal government wants to create marine wildlife preserves.
How can anyone make sense of this?
For its part—there is more—Fisheries and Oceans is proposing to
set up marine protected areas. Following DFO's consultation
meetings on marine protection zones in Quebec in June 1998,
federal officials wrote the following in their minutes of these
meetings:
There is still a great deal of confusion among stakeholders
regarding the various federal programs on protected marine areas
(marine protection zones, national marine conservation areas,
wildlife marine preserves, etc.). The departments concerned
should harmonize their actions and co-operate to create protected
marine areas.
This is not the Bloc Quebecois talking; these were the comments
of federal officials.
Now, Environment Canada is proposing to establish marine
conservation zones, that could also be called natural marine
reserves, expanding the notion of the national wildlife
sanctuary beyond the territorial sea to the 200-mile limit.
Such overlap and duplication is ridiculous. Who will know what
belongs to whom? But we know what this government wants. It
wants to get its hands on the St. Lawrence River. This is how
it hopes to invade our jurisdiction. This is how it thinks it
will bend us to its will, but we are not having any of it.
Yet an agreement could have been reached, as it was in the case
of the Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park. This initiative could
have served as a model.
In 1997, the governments of Quebec and Canada agreed to pass
mirror legislation to create the Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine
park. This resulted in the creation of Canada's first marine
conservation area.
This first partnership initiative should have served as a model
to the federal government for the creation of other marine
conservation areas. Rather than demonstrating open-mindedness and
co-operation, the federal government is still taking an arrogant,
aggressive, invasive approach that creates overlap and will only
feed our desire to leave as soon as possible.
Phase III of the St. Lawrence action plan could have served as
another model. But the Government of Canada is not happy when
everything is running smoothly.
They prefer to stir up trouble and sow discord. They do not
understand that Quebeckers have had it with their arrogant
policies that cost a fortune, and the people will let them know
unequivocally in a very short time.
The bill is an intrusion into the jurisdictions of Quebec and
those of the other provinces, when they are concerned. Quebec
cannot and will not work in this kind of system. We were very
open with the federal government in dealing with the Saguenay—St.
Lawrence marine park. It is unfortunate that the government has
not learned its lesson.
1135
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, we have to
take part in this debate. We have to, because enough is enough.
I will add that, fortunately, the Bloc Quebecois is here to see
what is going on and to point out loud and clear that federalism
as it is practiced here has nothing to do with what we learn, in
political science books, about this type of government.
Federalism as we see it here is becoming a continuous struggle
between two levels of government, two departmental levels, while
the federal government is using the surpluses that were taken so
cruelly from the unemployed and from those who have suffered as
a result of cuts in health care, in education and in welfare.
It takes a great deal of arrogance, ignorance or insensitivity,
or maybe all of these, to introduce such a bill at a time like
this. My colleague, the member for Drummond, pointed out the
federal government's inconsistency—it could almost be funny if
the situation were not so sad—in wanting at all costs to have
the final say on the environment. As if the government of Quebec
and the other provincial governments could not take care of this
adequately or were not reasonable enough to agree on a joint
program.
This goes completely against the spirit of federalism, but the
federal government is convinced that it is the only one that can
adequately defend or protect, with the taxpayers' money, health
care or any other right of Canadians, Quebeckers and people in
the other provinces.
In fact, these repeated attacks make so little sense that, when
we talk about them, it looks like we are exaggerating. It looks
like what we are saying does not make sense. It is, however, the
plain and simple truth. That is the problem.
Again, we have to fight. Many times, I condemned the fact that
Bill C-54, now before us, constitutes such an intrusion in areas
under provincial jurisdiction that all the provincial and
territorial ministers of justice of all provinces have asked
that it be withdrawn.
But the federal government seems to be carrying on as if this
were unimportant. They could not care less about the law of the
land. They thumb their noses at constitutional interpretation.
They just make laws or use their spending powers.
In the case of concern to us here, the Bloc Quebecois has once
again tried to get the bill withdrawn. We find ourselves faced
with a bill that looks innocuous, with its title of “an act
respecting marine conservation areas”.
Its objective seems most praiseworthy: to ensure—and this was a
promise, an international commitment, by the Prime Minister—the
protection of natural, self-regulating marine ecosystems for the
maintenance of biological diversity. The problem is that the
Prime Minister did not turn to the provinces to ask them how
they could help to achieve this international commitment. No,
that is not what was done.
1140
They proposed a bill in which they say “We will look after this.
We will pass a law. We will establish marine conservation
areas, and in order to ensure that they fit in with what we want
to do, Her Majesty in right of Canada must have clear title to
the lands in question”. This is what appears in clause 5(2).
Clear title to the lands in question means three specific areas,
three large and significant areas, as far as the St. Lawrence is
concerned. The present Government of Quebec, which it seems
will also be the next one as well—and this will come as no
surprise to anyone who has read this morning's papers—had already
initiated consultations on this matter.
It is outrageous, after having made an international commitment,
to turn around and say “Now I am choosing the locations where I
am going to create areas, and if I am going to invest in this, I
have to have ownership”.
Something stands in the way, however. The National Assembly
passed legislation on crown lands which applies, and I quote,
“to all crown lands in Quebec, including beds of waterways and
lakes and the bed of the St. Lawrence river, estuary and gulf,
which belong to Quebec by sovereign right”.
It is fortunate that the Quebec National Assembly has passed
this legislation. It provides that Quebec cannot transfer its
lands to the federal government. The only thing it can do under
this legislation is to authorize, by order, the federal
government to use them only in connection with matters under
federal jurisdiction.
However, the protection of habitats and fauna is a matter of
joint federal and provincial jurisdiction.
The Government of Quebec plans to establish a framework for the
protection of marine areas in the near future, as the member for
Rimouski—Mitis reminded us.
The identified areas are under Quebec's jurisdiction and Quebec
has no intention of giving them away because, as the Bloc
Quebecois critic for fisheries pointed out, the fishing industry
is in dire straits. The only prospect villagers who are
starving, young people who see no future and seniors who have
difficulty making ends meet have is that bureaucrats will come
swarming into this area to handle fish conservation, without
co-operation and without preparation.
Heritage Canada and its minister may want to follow up on the
Prime Minister's commitment, but they cannot do so without
taking Quebec and Quebeckers into consideration.
The only way to meet this international commitment, whose
objectives the Bloc supports, is to do what was done when the
Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park was established, in other
words, to have similar legislation passed simultaneously at the
federal and provincial level and dealing with a joint
management.
1145
I repeat, it is fortunate that the Bloc Quebecois is here, it is
fortunate that Quebec has passed an act respecting crown lands
to protect territorial sovereignty, which is guaranteed under
the Constitution. Quebeckers will not sit idly by.
[English]
Mr. George S. Baker (Gander—Grand Falls, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, after listening to several speakers from the Bloc, I
have to say a few words about the inaccurate assessment of the
second reading of this bill given by some of the opposition
members.
Second reading is about the principle of the bill. What is the
principle of this bill? The principle is a particular type of
conservation, marine conservation.
If I went to the Iles-de-la-Madeleine and asked fishermen what
was the most important thing affecting their livelihood, they
would say marine conservation. In what area were the greatest
errors made by the federal government over the years? It was in
the area of marine conservation.
If I went down to the Gaspé and talked to the people there they
would say the same thing. If I went up to Blanc-Sablon and
talked to the people there they would say the same thing.
Why am I able to say that? I was part of a committee that
travelled in the past year and held public hearings. We had
group after group telling us that the greatest disaster in their
lives was created by policies of the federal government in the
past that destroyed their livelihood. They were very specific.
The hon. member for Drummond stood in her place a moment ago and
made a sarcastic reference to the fact that the Prime Minister
was concerned about the marine resources from the land right out
to 200 miles. Let me correct her. The Prime Minister is
concerned about the resources that go right out to the end of the
continental shelf, not just 200 miles but 350 miles.
I will tell this House why. Go to the Quebec north shore and
ask the fishermen there what happened to their mackerel. It is
the greatest spawning ground in the world for mackerel, as the
Parliamentary Secretary for the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans
and the hon. member who represents Iles-de-la-Madeleine know,
because they are very knowledgeable in the fishery. The greatest
spawning ground for mackerel is the coast of Quebec.
What happened to that resource? In the 1980s licences were
given. To whom? To Norway, Sweden and some other European
countries. It was to block the spawning run where the mackerel
were headed to the coast of Quebec to spawn in late May. That
was poor fisheries management on the part of the Tory government
of the day. It was the most outrageous thing that destroyed the
spawning ground of the mackerel. In one year there were seven
Norwegian vessels right between Sydney Bight and
Port-aux-Basques. The next year there were nine and the year
after there were eleven. Why? It was because of poor fisheries
management of non-conservation of our marine resource.
If we asked the fishermen what perhaps was the second worst
policy of the government of Canada then, they would refer, as the
parliamentary secretary knows, to the policies of former
governments on squid where unfortunately squid cannot get to the
Quebec coast if blocked by foreign nations off the coast of Nova
Scotia.
Why? Because of poor management of our marine resource. If we
ask fishermen on the coast of Quebec what is the third worst
marine conservation measure ever taken by the government of
Canada in the past, they would say the policy on capelin. Why?
Because that is perhaps the most important food of salmon that go
up the rivers in Quebec and other provinces. It is the food of
northern cod and turbot that the people in Quebec need as
fishermen.
1150
[Translation]
Mr. Yvan Bernier: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I know the member for Gander—Grand Falls, and because I know him,
I would like to give him the opportunity to come back to the
issue, which is marine protected areas.
He is talking to us about migrating species—
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member for Gander—Grand Falls is
well aware that this bill deals with the management of
conservation areas. I am sure that, during his discussion on
fish, we will soon get to marine area management.
[English]
Mr. George S. Baker: Mr. Speaker, thank you for your wise
judgment that marine actually means something that is in the
water. Of course marine management means management of something
in the water.
Apart from the other things I mentioned that were missing prior
to the advent of this government, if we ask the fishermen of
Quebec what the next worst thing in marine management and
conservation that affected their lives has been in the past, the
biggest error ever made by a former federal government, they
would say the non-protection of the sea bed. They would say that
for a very good reason. We have over the years allowed the
massive destruction of our ecosystem and allowed intensive
dragging of the ocean floor in our commercial fisheries.
I will give an example of the importance of marine conservation.
Last year there were 123 draggers that took part in the shrimp
fishery on the continental shelf. There were 6 Canadian vessels
and 117 foreign vessels. These were 350 foot vessels with huge
plates on either end of a drag, 10 feet long, 8 feet high, 4 feet
thick, iron and steel that drag the bottom of the ocean and
create a virtual vortex of sediment in the middle like a sand
storm on the bottom of the ocean, destroying everything in its
path. That is why the Government of Canada, in referring to what
the member for Drummond said, is not only interested in what
takes place inside the 200 mile zone, but is interested in
extending our jurisdiction. Before the next federal election the
government is also intent on extending jurisdiction in order to
stop this massive destruction of the bottom of the sea floor.
The parliamentary secretary was there when we had our public
meetings in the province of Quebec, all along the shore from
Blanc-Sablon down to the Gaspé coast. These fishermen and fish
plant workers want to make sure the Government of Canada stops
the destruction of the food supply of our cod, salmon and turbot.
1155
The Government of Canada is firmly there to say no to these
totally destructive methods of fishing that have taken place in
the past which former governments have been guilty of, especially
the former Progressive Conservative government which ruled the
fishery in those days.
It is very unfortunate that the Bloc is not in favour of the
principle of marine conservation. The Government of Canada will
make sure we advance in the future to protect our marine
environment.
[Translation]
Mrs. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ): Mr. Speaker, we are now at
second reading of Bill C-48, an act respecting marine
conservation areas.
This bill seeks to define the legal framework for the
establishment of 28 marine conservation areas, so as to protect
and preserve natural marine areas that are representative of the
oceans and of the Great Lakes, to promote public knowledge,
appreciation and enjoyment of this marine heritage, and to
preserve it for future generations. The Saguenay—St. Lawrence
marine park, which is the 29th marine conservation area and
which was officially established on June 12, is not included.
It is not covered by the bill, because Quebec has its own
legislation.
The Bloc Quebecois finds it perfectly normal and legitimate that
Quebec would apply its own legislation to the marine world.
After all, our province has been assuming for 15 years already
its legislative responsibilities regarding the land along the
Saguenay fjord and a large part of the St. Lawrence estuary.
The Bloc Quebecois has always cared a great deal about
environmental protection measures. I know what I am talking
about, since I was my party's critic on the environment from
1995 to 1997. The Bloc Quebecois supported the government
regarding the establishment of the Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine
park.
That being said, my party will oppose this bill.
We cannot support Bill C-48 which, instead of relying on
dialogue, as was the case with the Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine
park, does just the opposite.
With this bill, the federal government is trying to unilaterally
create marine conservation areas, regardless of Quebec's
jurisdictions, particularly over the environment. This is the
main reason the Bloc Quebecois will not support the bill.
We feel that this legislation is an unacceptable infringement by
the federal government on jurisdictions that are already under
Quebec's strong and effective control.
The Government of Quebec has a proven track record and it has
taken measures to protect the environment, particularly the
marine floor. So why does the federal government feel the urge
again to interfere in an area under provincial jurisdiction? It
is always the same old story.
I would like the Minister of Canadian Heritage to explain to me
why she does not want to use the Saguenay—St. Lawrence Marine
Park Act as a model.
By making ownership of the territory an essential condition for
the creation of marine conservation areas, the federal
government is behaving like a centralizing government that wants
control over everything, regardless of Quebec's jurisdictions.
This is no surprise coming from this government.
This kind of interference is nothing new. Paradoxically, the
federal government has often used the environment as the perfect
example of progressive, open and decentralized federalism.
1200
On other occasions, this same government invoked the notion of
national interest as well as international commitments stemming
from the globalization of environmental issues, as if Quebec
were incapable of facing this new reality on its own. Let us be
serious.
Here are a few flagrant examples that show this government's bad
faith and its insatiable appetite for interfering in Quebec's
affairs, particularly with regard to the environment.
The first example is the implementation of the ecogovernment
policy in which Ottawa totally ignored provincial powers by
favouring a partnership with representatives from industry,
municipalities and agriculture. It deliberately ignored Quebec's
involvement.
The second example is the implementation of the Canadian
Environmental Assessment Act, which infringes in an
unprecedented way on provincial responsibilities and creates
considerable duplication with Quebec's legislation in this area.
Now we have Bill C-48, an Act respecting marine conservation
areas, and there are many other examples.
Speaking of duplication, this bill tops it all. It is an
unthinkable administrative mess.
Bill C-48, proposed by the Department of Canadian Heritage, will
establish a new structure, the marine conservation areas, that
will duplicate the marine protected areas of the Department of
Fisheries and Oceans, and Environment Canada's protected
offshore areas. That does not take into account the overlap
with the Quebec department of the environment and wildlife.
What a fine example of federal bureaucratic inefficiency.
Amazing.
In addition, the bill disregards Quebec's territorial integrity.
We need only look at the wording of the bill.
Clause 5(2) specifically provides that the minister may not
establish a marine conservation area, unless he, and I quote:
Quebec is not for sale. Subsection 92(5) of the Constitution
Act, 1867, recognizes that the management and sale of crown land
are matters of exclusive provincial jurisdiction.
Quebec legislation on crown lands applies to all crown lands in
Quebec, including beds of waterways and lakes and the bed of the
St. Lawrence river, estuary and gulf, which belong to Quebec by
sovereign right.
In addition, this same legislation provides that Quebec cannot
transfer its lands to the federal government. It can, within
this legislation, only authorize, by order, the federal
government to use them under its federal jurisdiction. However,
the protection of habitats and fauna is a matter of joint
federal and provincial jurisdiction, and the Government of
Quebec plans to establish a framework for the protection of
marine areas in the near future.
To top it off, Heritage Canada intends to unilaterally launch
three projects to establish marine conservation areas in the St.
Lawrence River, its estuary and gulf, all three being areas
under Quebec's jurisdiction.
What justifies such arrogance on the part of this government,
which claims it owns the marine floor where it wants, to
establish marine conservation areas? Why does the federal
government not promote bilateral agreements between the Ottawa
and the Quebec government instead, so that Quebec may maintain
its areas of jurisdiction?
This government loves to go it alone and show the rest of Canada
that it is the one laying down the rules of the game, ignoring
its own laws and those of the provinces in the process.
This is another example of how unfairly Quebec is treated in
this federal system.
How stupid and ironic at the same time. Not only is the federal
government duplicating what the provinces do, it is also opening
the door to overlap in its own court.
1205
How can people believe and trust it, when it shows so little
determination and strength in their legislation? Quebeckers will
figure it out and be all the more convinced that pulling out of
the federation is the right thing to do.
Bill C-48 on marine conservation areas is an unacceptable attack
on a predominantly provincial jurisdiction. It will result in
duplication, challenge and the subordination of provincial
processes, as well as large and unnecessary expenditures and
many court challenges. These are becoming more frequent in the
federal system and are becoming unbearable.
Once again, the taxpayers will have to foot the bill after the
federal government has made the wrong decision.
As I said at the beginning, the Bloc Quebecois will vote against
this bill. On November 30, Quebeckers will make the right
decision for Quebec, they will be vote for the Parti Quebecois.
[English]
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Eastern Shore, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, probably one of the problems in the country is that
politics get involved in what would be considered a very good
idea.
Our party supports the marine protection act, although we have
some reservations about it. Allow me to digress for a moment, as
my critic area is fisheries and oceans and I would like to relate
that to this argument. There is a bank off Nova Scotia's shelf
called the George's Bank, which by the way and for the public
record is not named after the member for Gander—Grand Falls. I
mention that because I know he is watching and listening intently
to every word. The Americans have put an oil and gas moratorium
on their side of the George's Bank to the year 2012.
This is a prime fishing area for all the east coast. Although
it has not been accepted and there will be hearings and reviews
of it, Canada is considering the possibility of allowing a
discussion of oil and gas drilling within the George's Bank, one
of the prime fishing areas of the world if not off the coast of
Canada.
For us to even consider having a review, talking to companies
like Shell, Mobil, PetroCan or whatever is unbelievable. We
should not try in any way, shape or form to destroy a resource to
exploit another resources. By the way, the resource we are
talking about in the fishing industry is renewable. If it is
done sustainably with an environmental message behind it, it can
be renewable and bring economic wealth not only for future
generations but for generations to follow.
If we destroy that and allow oil and gas drilling on the
George's Bank, we will have economic wealth for our generation
and nothing for the future, absolutely nothing for the future.
The problem with part of the Bloc, Liberal, Reform, Tory and
even our debate by allowing politics to get involved is that we
can only see in four year terms. I am a new politician. I know
that politicians are a reactive bunch. They are not very
proactive.
The hon. member for Churchill River in northern Saskatchewan is
Metis. His culture and his people look a lot further than the
current generation. The input they have on the land and the
impact they have on resources is for future generations, not just
their children or grandchildren but children hundreds of years
down the road, so that they will be able to access and live with
the species and resources we currently have.
We have some particular reservations about the bill. We would
like to see some refinements, but it is not a bad bill in terms
of what we have done with land. The current Prime Minister is
very proud to say that he has produced more parks in Canada than
any other minister before him. Unfortunately, as in the case of
Banff National Park, we trumpet that success and then allow coal
mining or strip mining on the border of that park for economic
gains right now, but nothing for the long term future of the
country.
I remind all parliamentarians and those people who are watching
today that we are not the masters of the globe. We share the
planet with many other species. For us to exploit a particular
species to its extinction is a detriment to all mankind. It is a
disgrace that we have a list a mile long of species that used to
walk on this planet which are now extinct because of our short
term thinking.
1210
Marine parks just add to the parks in Canada. When the
provinces get involved, they start introducing legislation which
may allow discussions about entering into mining or development
inside the parks. Call me old fashion, but my interpretation of
a park is a park that we can share in, walk around, canoe in and
camp in. It is not necessarily to play golf in, to have saunas,
or to exploit mineral resources, fishing resources or to cut down
all the trees. I would like to think I could move myself in
space 500 years and come back and find the parks just like they
were before.
That will not happen because we are looking at these parks and
areas of our country and our world as avenues in which to
exploit. There is a piece of pie out there and we will take
every last bit of it and not share it with anyone else.
Unfortunately we do not have enough parks and wilderness areas
that are protected. The marine parks act will just move what we
have in Canada to our ocean coasts.
I would like to move the discussion to an area called the Gully
off Sable Island. Actually there is more than one gully, but
this gully, for those who do not know, is a marine wilderness. It
is an absolute explosion of marine aquatic life. We are
allowing, I do not think with much hindsight, oil and gas
drilling in the vicinity of that gully. They say environmental
assessments and everything else have been done, but the fact is I
do not believe they have done enough environmental assessments on
the long term possible damage which may happen not only to that
area of the ocean shelf, the Gully area, but other areas there as
well.
Another area is the renowned area called the Flemish Cap. As
everyone knows, especially the hon. member for Gander—Grand
Falls and the hon. member for Malpeque, the Flemish Cap is a
prime, pristine area of fishing resources. Currently, with
acquiescence from our government and foreign nations, we are
raping and pillaging that resource. We are using long term
draggers.
It is funny that a senior official of DFO actually said in
committee on the public record that dragging could be good in
some cases because it turns up the soil at the bottom. I have
never heard before that dragging a resource, where we exploit
completely, rape and pillage the entire bottom, is actually good.
It is good for very quick economic gains. It is very fast and
efficient but there is no long term thinking in that regard.
If we are to protect the livelihood of fishermen in coastal
communities, we require marine parks on all three coasts and
within the Great Lakes waters so that fish and other species have
a place to go to nurture and to grow. If we do not, there will
be nothing left for future generations.
I find it a disgrace that we as parliamentarians can allow
politics to get involved in something of this nature. We have to
get it out of here. We have to forget the party politics aspect
and start concentrating on our children and our children's
children so that they can enjoy seeing what we see today.
I am sure, Mr. Speaker, being a very young man in age, you must
know right now that things you saw as a child your children, your
nieces and nephews and their children will not be able to see
because we have exploited them. We have altered it. We have
changed it for our specific short term benefit but have not
thought about the long term.
My party and I are in support of the bill with some
reservations. Some changes need to be made and we are hoping
they will be made. We are hoping that the provinces, especially
Quebec, would be very interested in doing this.
Let us face it. If we take away the provinces and the people,
what do we have left? We have the natural resources that were
here long before we were ever here. I do not know who gave us
the right to exploit them and actually exterminate them. If we
do not look at this in the long term, future generations, if we
have any, will look at this generation and say we were a bunch of
spoiled brats who just took everything for ourselves and left
nothing for them.
I will conclude my comments. I extend our support for the bill
with some reservations and hope that all parliamentarians will
look to the future and not just to themselves.
1215
[Translation]
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, Bill C-48,
an Act respecting marine conservation areas, provides for the
establishment of 28 marine conservation areas in Canada.
This raises many serious questions on several issues including
the division of powers regarding the environment—harmonization
with the provinces—territorial integrity, the overlap among
federal departments and the so-called consultations carried out
by the government. I will go over each of these issues and
explain why the Bloc Quebecois will vote against this bill.
As the Bloc Quebecois environment critic, I can say that my
party is in favour of any environmental protection measure that
is efficient.
However, the Bloc Quebecois is opposed to Bill C-48. Instead of
relying on dialogue, as in the case of the Saguenay—St. Lawrence
marine park, the federal government wants to create marine
conservation areas, regardless of the fact that Quebec has
jurisdiction over the protection of its territory and of the
environment.
Moreover, the Department of Canadian Heritage is proposing the
establishment of a new structure, the marine conservation areas,
that will duplicate the marine protected areas of the Department
of Fisheries and Oceans, and Environment Canada's protected
offshore areas. In short, the federal government is splitting
responsibilities among three of its departments so it can meddle
in an area that comes under the jurisdiction of Quebec.
On a different note, Bill C-48 fails to respect the integrity of
the territory of Quebec.
One of the conditions essential to the establishment of a marine
conservation area is federal ownership of the land where the
conservation area will be established.
Subclause 5(2) of the bill provides that the minister can
establish a marine conservation area only if he:
I remind the House that subsection 92(5) of the Constitution
Act, 1867, recognizes that the management and sale of crown land
are matters of exclusive provincial jurisdiction.
Quebec legislation on crown lands, passed by the Quebec National
Assembly, applies to all crown lands in Quebec, including beds
of waterways and lakes and the bed of the St. Lawrence river,
estuary and gulf, which belong to Quebec by sovereign right.
In addition, this legislation provides that Quebec cannot
transfer its lands to the federal government. The only thing it
can do within this legislation is to authorize, by order, the
federal government to use them only in connection with matters
under federal jurisdiction. However, the protection of habitats
and fauna is a matter of joint federal and provincial
jurisdiction, and the Government of Quebec plans to establish a
framework for the protection of marine areas in the near future.
According to the notes provided us by the Minister of Canadian
Heritage with regard to the bill, marine conservation areas are
planned for the St. Lawrence, the St. Lawrence estuary and the
Gulf of St. Lawrence. These are three areas in which the ocean
floor is under Quebec's jurisdiction.
Also, co-operative mechanisms already exist to protect ecosystems
in the Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park, and in the St. Lawrence
River under the agreement entitled “St. Lawrence action plan,
phase III” which was signed by all federal and provincial
departments concerned, and which provides for an investment of
$250 million, over a period of five years, in various activities
relating to the St. Lawrence River.
The St. Lawrence Marine Park is a good model. In 1997, the
governments of Quebec and Canada passed legislation to establish
the Saguenay—St. Lawrence Marine Park.
This legislation led to the establishment of Canada's first
marine conservation area, and one of the main features of this
legislation is the fact that the Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine
park is the first marine park to be created jointly by the
federal and Quebec governments, without any land changing hands.
Both governments will continue to fulfil their respective
responsibilities.
The park is made up entirely of marine areas. It covers 1,138
square kilometres. Its boundaries may be changed through an
agreement between the two governments, provided there is joint
public consultation in that regard.
In order to promote local involvement, the acts passed by Quebec
and by Canada confirm the creation of a co-ordinating committee,
whose membership is to be determined by the federal and
provincial ministers.
1220
This committee's mandate is to recommend to the ministers
responsible measures to achieve the master plan's objectives.
The plan is to be reviewed jointly by the two governments, at
least once every seven years.
Any exploration, use or development of resources for mining or
energy related purposes, including the building of oil lines,
gas lines or power lines, is prohibited within park boundaries.
By means of regulations, the governments of Quebec and of Canada
will be able to determine measures for protecting the park's
ecosystems and resources and for protecting the public.
More specifically, they will be able to define how each category
of area will be used and for how long such use shall apply.
This first partnership initiative should have served as a model
to the federal government for the creation of other marine
conservation areas.
By refusing to take the Saguenay—St. Lawrence Marine Park Act as
an example, the federal government is acting as a centralizing
government that wants to control everything, regardless of
acknowledged areas of jurisdiction.
The Bloc Quebecois reminds the government that it supported the
legislation establishing the Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park.
Moreover, the Bloc Quebecois knows the Quebec government is
embarking on initiatives aimed at protecting the environment,
particularly the marine floor.
The Quebec government is also open to working with the federal
government, as evidenced by the third phase of the St. Lawrence
action plan.
The involvement of several federal departments in environmental
issues is a new trend that leads us to believe the government is
trying to weaken the Department of the Environment.
With this bill, the federal government intends to establish
marine conservation areas through Heritage Canada, marine
protected areas through Fisheries and Oceans Canada, and marine
wildlife reserves through Environment Canada. This means that a
single site could find itself protected under more than one
category.
The Bloc Quebecois thinks these different designations create a
jurisdictional duplication problem that would be solved if the
federal government designated one entity to oversee the
objectives pursued by the various departments.
By taking three separate initiatives with very similar
objectives, the federal government is creating jurisdictional
duplication which will result in confusion among the coastal
populations concerned and frictions not only between the federal
government and the Quebec government, but also within the
federal government.
To show the severity of the problem, the Government of Quebec
has refused to take part in the implementation of marine
protected areas under the Oceans Act because it believes the
federal government is not respecting Quebec's jurisdictions.
Coastal populations, environmental organizations, all
stakeholders must be invited to take part in the consultation
process to express their views. However, that is not the way it
is done in reality. We know the bogus consultation process
conducted by Heritage Canada on the establishment of marine
conservation areas was a failure, as was the one conducted by
Fisheries and Oceans on the establishment of marine protected
areas.
A background document was sent by Heritage Canada to 3,000
groups across Canada. Less than ten of them responded by sending
a letter, and about fifty simply returned the reply coupon
included in the document. Of those responses, only one was in
French.
In view of this, it is impossible to talk about meaningful
consultation. How can the government introduce a bill that
supposedly has the support of all stakeholders if it is not
aware of their concerns?
This leads us to think that this was empty and unfounded
consultation.
We suspect, moreover, that the organizations consulted were
preselected. By way of example, had the ZIPs, zones
d'intervention prioritaire, and the CREs, the conseils régionaux
de l'environnement, been consulted, we could have benefited from
all their expertise. In fact, some 30% of these organizations
were consulted, and that is totally unacceptable.
In conclusion, the Bloc Quebecois opposes the bill for the
following reasons.
Instead of focusing on co-operation, as in the Saguenay-St.
Lawrence marine park, the federal government fails to recognize
Quebec's jurisdiction over it own territory and in environmental
matters. Therefore, there is encroachment on Quebec's
jurisdiction.
The Department of Canadian Heritage is proposing the
establishment of a new structure, the marine conservation areas,
that will duplicate the marine protected areas of the Department
of Fisheries and Oceans, and Environment Canada's protected
marine areas.
1225
For all these reasons, and for a number of others, the Bloc
Quebecois opposes this bill.
Mr. Ghislain Lebel (Chambly, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to
speak to Bill C-48, which, I must admit, did not make much of an
effect on me when I first perused it. I figured everyone wants
to do the right thing, and Quebeckers may be more sensitive than
others to this kind of infringement.
I took a closer look at what the hysterical heritage minister
who introduced this legislation had come up with. No matter how
well-intentioned she is, it is obvious that the minister's
attitude toward Quebec has not changed a bit and that she is as
hysterical now as she was recently, when she asked the Canadian
Olympic committee to postpone the announcement of the city
selected to host the 2010 Olympic Games.
True to herself, the current Minister of Canadian Heritage has
never been keen on consultation, quite the contrary. As far back
as I can remember, she has always acted imperiously to impose
her vision, her ideas. Consultation is definitely not her cup of
tea.
This bill will establish up to eight marine areas in the St.
Lawrence estuary, but there is no indication of whether they
will be located upstream or downstream and how far they will
extend. We simply do not know. For the sake of argument, let us
say they extend to the dividing line between fresh and salt
water, somewhere between Rivière-du-Loup and Montmagny. That is
where the marine conservation areas would be established. But
have those involved been consulted?
I heard the member for Gander—Grand Falls saying earlier that the
spawning grounds for mackerel and other fish common to these
regions are located off the North Shore in the St. Lawrence
River. Can the inhabitants of the North Shore, particularly in
the ridings of my colleagues, the members for Charlevoix and
Manicouagan, be expected to foot the bill, without any
compensation, for marine conservation areas in this sector?
Were these people consulted? Will these areas be open for
certain periods? Will there be more control over fishing? Will
they be given the chance not just to survive, but to make a
living, when the bill is passed?
The minister should realize that this policy of refusing to give
an inch will lead nowhere.
I would like to digress briefly. This morning, I had breakfast
with someone I consider a friend, a minister from across the
way.
He was at a loss and had the following question for me: “What
have the Liberals done wrong in Quebec for it to have come to
this? On November 30, we will take a beating in the francophone
ridings in Quebec. We will keep our strongholds, of course, but
where did we go wrong? What more could we do? We sent you the
saviour himself to rescue the nation.”
I am referring, of course, to Jean Charest. “What went wrong?
What more could he have done?”
1230
Faced with the sort of arrogance we are seeing from the Minister
of Canadian Heritage, Quebeckers have learned over the years.
This kind of attitude, sanctioned by the present Prime Minister,
who was the leading force behind the unilateral patriation of
the Constitution in 1982, leaves its mark on a people.
Quebeckers have become fearful.
Quebeckers are not prepared to trust a government that relies on
remote control, as the Minister of Canadian Heritage is doing by
imposing Bill C-48 on us, having consulted no one except perhaps
a few of her friends on the receiving end of hard-to-trace grants.
Anyway, she has friends in this community, of course. So she
consulted her buddies, who are probably the ones who inspired
the negative outcome we expect from application of Bill C-48.
If the minister had been concerned about the federal
government's image in Quebec, she would have first of all
undertaken consultations with the Government of Quebec. She is
up to her neck now—never has the expression been more apt—in total
interference in legislative jurisdictions.
Yet the Fathers of Confederation were no fools. They were
people who set priorities, people who had believed, in good
faith, that legislative jurisdictions needed to be divided, that
some things were best attributed to one level and some to the
other, according to which one had shown, historically, the
greatest capacity to deal with those issues.
The government possesses huge taxation powers, far beyond its
real needs. It also acts based on its spending power as well as
its ability to appropriate funds, for example in the recent case
of the employment insurance fund.
The government is now faced with a crushing debt, but, on the
one hand, the additional economic input will enable it to do
away with the deficit, while on the other, it dips into the
employment insurance fund and has accumulated $10.4 billion in
surplus over the first six months of the current year. This is
a misappropriation of funds, nothing more and nothing less.
For all these reasons, Quebeckers are apprehensive, and the
backing federal governments had 50, 60 or 70 years ago no longer
exist.
Everything the federal government does is closely scrutinized by
the people, and by members representing Quebec and the other
provinces in the House. My colleagues in the Reform Party look
after the interests of western Canadians. They are more
aggressive when we deal with the Canadian Wheat Board and other
subjects more specifically related to the development of their
own region.
Opposition members have a responsibility to speak up and tell
this hysterical minister who says all sorts of silly things when
she is off the air that it is about time she opened her eyes and
saw what is going on. It is about time she realized what is
wrong in Quebec where the mere mention of the prime minister's
name gives a rash to 35% of the population. There is something
wrong, and it is high time the government, and more particularly
this minister, realized it.
I ask her to put on hold this bill which has the appearance of a
commendable bill, because its goal is to protect endangered
marine species. And who could be against motherhood and apple
pie? Nobody, and certainly not in my party. But the bill also
has the unwanted effect of using the federal spending power to
intrude into jurisdictions that are none of the federal
government's business.
The federal government is forcing things over which it has no
jurisdiction. If it wants to spend so badly, why does it not use
the $10 billion surplus in the EI fund, and spend a little extra
money to help the unemployed, who now get only 43% of the
benefits they deserve?
1235
If the minister's remarks are well intentioned, she should
revise them and admit that she made a mistake when she
introduced this bill. She is getting deeper and deeper into
trouble.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is the House ready
for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is it the pleasure
of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the
yeas have it.
And more than five members having risen:
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
There have been discussions among representatives of all parties.
I believe you would find consent to defer the recorded division
requested on the motion of the Parliamentary Secretary to the
Minister of Canadian Heritage concerning second reading of Bill
C-48 to the expiry of Government Orders on Tuesday, December 1,
1998.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
* * *
FIRST NATIONS LAND MANAGEMENT ACT
The House resumed from November 16 consideration of the motion
that Bill C-49, an act providing for the ratification and the
bringing into effect of the Framework Agreement on First Nation
Land Management, be read the second time and referred to a
committee.
Mr. David Iftody (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Indian Affairs and Northern Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I am pleased to rise in my place today to speak to Bill C-49, the
first nations land management act. This bill ratifies a
framework agreement that will enable 14 first nations to opt out
of land management provisions of the Indian Act.
Hon. members whose constituencies include one or more of these
first nations will attest that they have been leaders in land
administration for many years. This historic land management
initiative is brought forward at their request. It is the result
of government to government negotiations that will enable these
first nations to implement their own land management regimes.
Those who have been following the negotiations of the framework
agreement on first nations land management will be aware as well
that the process has brought the 14 signatories together in a
spirit of co-operation. They will continue to co-ordinate
activities through a land advisory board which they will have to
establish to help them with the development of land codes,
negotiation of individual agreements, model laws and monitoring
of the process.
The first nations through the board will also establish a
resource centre, develop training programs and maintain records
in relation to the first nations land codes and amendments.
The land advisory board is a tool that first nations have
developed to build partnerships among themselves and to build
capacity in their communities. This is a road to
self-government. It is a road to self-reliance.
When decisions can be made at the local level without
departmental approvals, the first nations will be able to respond
more quickly to economic opportunities. The first nations will
have the legal capacity to deal directly with banks to borrow,
contract, expend and invest money.
Revenues, profits and fees from reserve lands administered by
these first nations will be available as security for loans from
financial institutions. These specific first nations will have
the authority to enter into co-management arrangements with other
jurisdictions to develop integrated land and resource use
co-management systems that can serve as security.
1240
From the date a land code takes effect, moneys other than those
derived from oil and gas activities will be collected and managed
by the first nations. Specific accountability mechanisms are
being built into these land codes to ensure financial
accountability to members. Capital moneys derived from oil and
gas activities would continue to be held in accordance with the
Indian Oil and Gas Act.
Another benefit of this legislation for first nations is the
limitations it places on alienation and expropriation. These are
important provisions. They speak to the sacred bond that first
nations hold for their land.
The Indian Act permits surrender and sale of reserve lands but
has no provision requiring the replacement of sold lands. The
bill before us removes these provisions from first nations
operating under the land code. They would be able to alienate
reserve lands but only if they were exchanged for other lands
that would become reserve lands.
This bill does not remove the federal government's expropriation
powers. The Indian Act gives the governor in council power to
permit expropriation of reserve land by provincial or local
authorities for public purposes.
This bill continues to permit the governor in council to
expropriate land for the Government of Canada, provided such
expropriation is justifiable and necessary for a federal public
purpose that serves the national interest. Certain minimum steps
would have to be satisfied. Compensation would have to be paid.
This would include land of equal or greater size and of
comparable value to the land expropriated.
In conclusion, I want to emphasize that the 14 first nations
that are taking part in the framework agreement are eager that
this legislation be passed so that they can start managing their
lands in accordance with this new regime. The people of those
communities have a great deal at stake in how we proceed. It
means jobs, economic growth and a secure livelihood for many
people in those communities.
This legislation is about much more than land management. It is
about self-reliance. It is about economic opportunity. It
speaks to the new relationship that we are building with
aboriginal people, one based on the principles of mutual respect
and recognition, responsibility and sharing.
In January this government launched a new action plan for
aboriginal people called “Gathering Strength”. This plan set
the direction for a new course that would bring real and
practical improvements to the lives of aboriginal people. The
spirit and vision of this plan is captured in the proposed
legislation before us today.
I and the signatories to this agreement urge all members to
support it. I therefore move:
Mr. Mike Scott (Skeena, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I listened
with great interest to the parliamentary secretary. He chose
very nice words and I am sure some people might be persuaded by
them.
I would like to say up front that some aspects of this bill are
certainly going in the right direction and we would like to
support them, especially in terms of devolving land management
away from Ottawa and to the reserves. However, the fact is that
the power to manage these lands is now going to be in the hands
of band chiefs and councils rather than with the department of
Indian affairs.
1245
The question is: Is this necessarily a bad thing? I would
answer that it could be a very good thing if there were rigid
requirements for accountability on reserves today. We are
becoming increasingly aware—and this is something the minister
of Indian affairs has continued to try to downplay, conceal and
deny for the last couple of years—that there are serious
problems with accountability on many reserves. We are not sure
how many of the reserves have these serious problems, but they
are certainly evident in a big percentage of the reserves in
Canada today.
I want to make it clear that this lack of accountability is not
necessarily a failure of the band chiefs and councils. It is a
failure of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development. As much as the minister protests to the contrary,
there are indeed very serious problems with fiscal and democratic
accountability on reserves.
If the parliamentary secretary or anybody else on that side of
the House, or on this side for that matter, doubts this, I would
draw their attention to an article that was printed in today's
edition of the Ottawa Citizen which deals specifically with
this issue. It states:
After a season of badly handling some itsy-bitsy, teenie-weenie
plaything scandals, the Chrétien government could soon have a
real one on its hands.
On Indian reserves there is alleged corruption involving
countless millions of dollars. There are police investigations
in Alberta, there are media reports beginning to expose the story
and there is acknowledgement in the highest power circles in
Ottawa that the surface is only being scratch.
Taxpayers spend more than $4.4 billion in annual subsidies to
native peoples. It is the only government budget that never gets
cut. The allegations are that much of the money does not reach
destitute Indians on the reserve. Instead it is pocketed by
native intermediaries in Armani suits. The oversight department,
Indian and Northern Affairs, doesn't seem to know where much of
the money has landed.
The minister, Jane Stewart, said recently over lunch that while
it is terribly unfair to tar all native peoples with the same
brush on this issue, funding mismanagement is a serious issue.
This is important because it is the first time we have heard the
minister actually acknowledge that it is a serious issue. Up
until now she has been trying to tell us that it has not been an
issue at all.
The article continues:
Is “serious issue” bureaucratese for major corruption scandal?
Top policy makers in the government give that impression. They
cite examples of unbelievable graft.
If this is the case, why isn't the government moving on it?
Getting out front on the controversy instead of waiting to be
cornered by revelations in the media and by opposition parties?
“Can't”, said one of the big men on Prime Minister Jean
Chrétien's campus. “Racism. We'd be accused of racism”. The
mere fact, he said, of suggesting the native peoples are
incompetent at administering their finances would cause a
terrible backlash. For evidence, he could cite the Reform Party,
which has raised the issue and which has been painted in
prejudiced terms as a result.
Thus political correctness takes it toll again. Great wads of
public money go up in smoke, but owing to sensitivities involving
minorities, a waiting game is played.
The article continues:
A Senate committee on aboriginal peoples has begun hearings, some
of which will delve into this issue. Senator Janis Johnson, the
deputy chairman, who is from Manitoba and who is well versed on
the subject, said that while there is some terrific progress
being made among native peoples through government programs,
there is no underestimating the extent of the problem. “If the
general public knew what chaos this department was in and all the
money that was flying around, they wouldn't believe it. It is
out of control”.
That is exactly what we have been saying for two years on this
side of the House.
The article continues:
Despite Ottawa's always-escalating infusion of monies, up to 25
per cent of the country's 600 Indian bands are in debt to the
tune of hundreds of millions.
This is consistent with the kind of feedback we are getting from
grassroots people on reserves and it is the issue that we have
raised in the House of Commons since the summer of 1997, only to
be ridiculed and castigated by the minister of Indian affairs and
others on that side of the House.
We have been told by the minister that only 3% of bands in
Canada are in non-compliance, and yet we have departmental
admission that 25% of the bands in this country are running
deficits in excess of 8% which has required the department to
step in and co-manage.
I would like to give the House some examples of how this affects
people on reserves; where the rubber meets the road, if I can use
that expression.
1250
In my riding several years ago Gitksan band members came to me
and said that the Minister of Health, who is responsible for
aboriginal health in Canada, was considering signing a health
authority or transfer agreement so that the Gitksan band would
have primary responsibility in delivering health care to its
members.
These people came to me because they were very concerned. They
did not want this to happen. They said that their band, as it
was then constituted, was not capable of administering health
care and they did not want it.
I wrote several letters to the minister of health of the day and
explained the views of these people and asked that the minister
reconsider and not proceed with the transfer of health authority.
She reassured me in glowing terms—and I have all of the
correspondence in my file—that there was nothing to be concerned
about, that it was widely and publicly supported by the Gitksan
people and that they would do a good job.
Two and a half years later the roosters are coming home to
roost. We found out, for example, in the spring of this year—
and I raised it with the Minister of Health—that the Gitksan
health authority had invested over $300,000 in the stock market
in high risk stocks and had taken a $40,000 loss. That is a
matter of public record.
Last week we found out through front page headlines in the
Smithers Interior News, a local publication in northwest
British Columbia, that $695,000 was paid out in honorariums over
a period of two and a half years to board members. These are not
people who work for the health authority, but just the health
board.
How is that advancing the cause of health care in the Gitksan
communities? What is that doing for people in the Gitksan
communities who tell me they have to sleep in their pick-up
trucks because when they go to Vancouver to see a specialist they
do not have money for a room?
There was a fellow who went to Prince George for a gallbladder
operation and there was no money for transportation fare. He
hitchiked to the hospital and had the operation. Nowadays when
we have an operation they try to get us out of the hospital as
quickly as they can, so he started to hitchike back to his home
town. He had to stop in Burns Lake because he was so sick. He
had to hitchike from his hospital bed to get back home. There
was no money for him, but there was $695,000 paid out in
honorariums to board members and $300,000 was invested in the
stock market. That is the problem.
Do I blame the Gitksan band? I blame the Department of Indian
Affairs and the Department of Health for not ensuring that the
people who were going to be responsible for these activities were
well versed in ethical procedures, that there was a sound
procedure in place for management and that there were sound
reporting requirements in place. Apparently those things are
non-existent. That is why we have the terrible situation we are
faced with today. That is why the Gitksan people have had their
health care badly compromised.
I can give another example. The Nisga'a people have recently
signed a land claim agreement, in principle anyway because it has
not been ratified by this House. It was reported that in one of
their communities over $1 million in welfare payments was misused
and misdirected. These are small communities and over $1 million
represents a tremendous amount of income for these bands.
We have testimonials from grassroots aboriginals from right
across Canada. My colleague from Wild Rose has the files in his
office, but I believe that well over 125 bands have expressed
concerns to us and asked us to look into these matters.
There are examples in Ontario. One band came to us and said
that the band council had received money for a sewer and water
project. They hired a contractor. The contractor was aware that
the money was in place. The contractor went to work. The band
received the money. The contractor requested payment and found
that there was no money because the band had spent the money on
something else.
There are allegations of a chief in Saskatchewan using band
funds to buy used cars. He brings those used cars back into the
community, sells them to the individuals in that community and
pockets the cash. The list goes on and on. I could provide
example after example.
1255
This is really not about aboriginal people. It is about a
failed system. It is about the failure of the Department of
Indian Affairs and Northern Development to ensure that this did
not happen in the first place. It has created an environment in
which accountability is almost non-existent. It has become a
breeding ground for practices that can best be described as
unethical and at worst corruptive.
For example, all elected public officials in Canada, beginning
with the Prime Minister and going right down to municipal
officials, publicly report their salaries and expenses on a
regular basis. Everybody in Canada is entitled to know what I
make as a parliamentarian, what my expenses are and how much my
travel costs are. That is all a matter of public record. If we
go onto a reserve, no way. What we get is a financial report
which is a glorified pie chart that gives us a percentage of the
total revenue that the band has spent on administration, the
global amount that is spent on health care and so on. But we do
not get a breakdown and we do know what the public officials are
making. That is the reality that these people are living with.
This bill proposes to transfer much greater powers for land
management to chiefs and councils without first correcting the
very serious deficiencies with accountability, both democratic
and fiscal accountability, on the reserves.
I know the parliamentary secretary is aware of this, although I
am sure he will not want to talk about it. I would argue that it
is no accident that the aboriginal women's association of Canada
and the aboriginal women's association of British Columbia are
opposed to this bill. It is they who are most often the ones who
pay the biggest price for lack of accountability. They know full
well that there is no accountability with this bill. They know
full well that they will be worse off as individuals with this
bill in place.
They are not suggesting that the system, as it is, is great.
They are saying that they do not want the responsibility for land
management to be transferred until and unless there is a proper
system of accountability in place so that their views will be
respected in their communities.
People have told us not to worry because provincial laws with
respect to family issues—and this will come down to family
issues—including the disposition of family assets in the event
of marital breakdown, will still apply. In other words, what
they are saying is that there are provincial laws that govern
marital breakdown and there are provincial laws that govern the
disposal of family assets. Even though the chief and council
will have land management rights, the provincial laws will
supersede or override in cases where there is a conflict.
In response to that I give the House this example. I may have
used it before, but it is worth hearing again.
During the last election campaign I met a young native lady in
Prince Rupert. I thought she was interested in the campaign, but
she was there to see me as a member of parliament. She was quite
distraught. She was tearful. She said “Mr. Scott, I need your
help”. I asked her to explain the problem.
She said that she was 35 years old and a young mother with three
young children. Two of the children were not much more than
babies. The oldest was only seven years old. Her children
demanded a great deal of her time. Her husband had left her and
she had no means of looking after herself. She was being forced
to live on welfare.
She had some skills, but she could not work because she had to
look after her children. With what she was getting on welfare
she could not buy the food and clothing which she thought her
children were entitled to. I understood her situation.
I asked where the father was. She said that he had taken off
with a new girlfriend and did not want anything to do with her.
I told her that she had rights. She could go to court and force
the father to pay child support. In essence, her problem was
getting enough funds to support her children properly.
She said that she had tried that, but as soon as she got a
judgment that required her husband to pay child support he moved
back onto the reserve. Guess what? That court order requiring
her husband to make child support payments was not enforceable on
reserve. Where are her rights?
1300
How can the government, the minister and the parliamentary
secretary suggest that we put people in even more peril with this
lack of accountability, putting more people like her at risk?
Right now, in the event of a marital breakdown on a reserve, who
most often winds up with the family home? In non-aboriginal
society most often it is the woman because most often the woman
ends up being the primary caregiver to the children after the
marriage breaks down. On reserves it is the other way around
because the decision as to who ends up with the marital home is
not in the hands of the courts, it is in the hands of the chief
and council. They effectively run the community.
These serious problems have to be addressed and in a manner
which is acceptable to people living on reserve before we can
support this kind of legislation.
While the principle of the bill can be supported, and we would
like to be able to support it, it is putting the cart before the
horse. There has to be accountability first before going to the
next step and devolving more and greater powers to band councils.
The serious and persistent problems on aboriginal reserves must
be addressed first in a manner which is satisfactory and
acceptable to grassroots band members before the government
proceeds with this bill and this kind of legislation. To not do
so is to once again fail some of the most vulnerable people in
this country.
Mr. David Iftody (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Indian Affairs and Northern Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I am extremely delighted that the Reform Party has come such a
long, long, long way in the last five years and is now coming
around to support aboriginal women and native rights in Canada.
That is a great thing. I want to commend the hon. member for his
good, decent and necessary work in that area.
I want to make a couple of points. I will get to the questions
of accountability with respect to the legislation before us and
address the hon. member's concerns. He is concerned, and I think
rightly so, about the division of matrimonial property on divorce
or separation. I believe that he has missed the point entirely
in this piece of legislation. Hon. members who read it carefully
will find that some of the member's concerns and objections very
clearly will be dealt with.
Only two days ago the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs
and Northern Development was discussing issues such as poverty on
reserves in many first nations communities. In that particular
instance it was Inuit communities. Members from the Reform Party
requested that the minister come before the committee. We had
arrived at this place because the Reform Party members had
concluded through their own logic, and I followed it closely,
that in this particular instance it was not the problem of the
Inuit leadership that had caused these difficulties. We brought
in the department officials and they agreed at the end of the
debate and two or three or four hours of discussion on it that it
was not the department officials, that maybe it was the
minister's responsibility.
Perhaps, just perhaps, one of the reasons there are difficulties
in these communities that we are all concerned about or we ought
to be concerned about is because there is not sufficient funds
going to these communities to do the job. The leaders who came
before the committee made a compelling argument that they are
doing their best with scarce resources.
If the salaries of all the chiefs and councils across the
country were cut in half and their flight privileges to go to
meetings or whatever were taken away, do we honestly think that
would clear up the problem in Canada? Is our analysis so
superficial that we would honestly believe and debate this kind
of thing in the House and that we would think that would be an
answer to these difficult problems? I really do not think so and
I do not think that any member can stand and say that with a
straight face in the House of Commons.
Talking about representation, one of the signatories to Bill
C-49 is a band from the area of the member from Prince George.
The chief and council met with the member and said that surely if
the Reform Party believes in the grassroots notions that its
members always talk about, then a vote in the community involving
the women of the community as well would hold some weight. If it
were true and if they held true to their own values and
principles, then it would hold some weight in terms of swaying
that particular member of parliament to support this legislation.
1305
The vote was 381 to 51 for the community in Prince Albert to
support Bill C-49. The member from Prince Albert ignored the
grassroots and stood in this House to say it was unconstitutional
and all sorts of silly things which are not true. Where is the
grassroots there?
Another member from the Reform Party only two weeks ago found
three aboriginal people. Out of a community of some 30,000
aboriginal people he found three in his entire constituency. He
equipped himself with a tape recorder and a camera and went about
diligently looking under stones, trees, carpets and beds to find
somebody in the community who would criticize the leadership so
that he could come back to the House and say that he had
discovered a great evil in Canada and he was going to lay it bare
in front of the Canadian people.
I ask the hon. member if in fact his colleague from Prince
George and that band had voted for this particular bill 380 to
50, is that not grassroots representation?
Mr. Mike Scott: Mr. Speaker, the parliamentary secretary
jumped around from Prince George to Prince Albert, but I think he
meant Prince Albert.
I would say that having one vote on one reserve is not
sufficient. We are aware that there are some reserves that are
not suffering through the problems of accountability because they
have progressive leadership which has ensured that they have
proper accountability. They largely have their membership on
side. That is not the case in many bands.
If we want to talk about a plebiscite, then let us have a
plebiscite of all the aboriginal reserves across Canada. If the
government can show us at that point that there is resounding
support for this, I would agree to support it tomorrow. I do not
think that that support is there.
If the member is thinking that we are picking and choosing and
trying to create something out of nothing in terms of the
accountability issue, which is what he seems to be suggesting, we
have not suggested that anyone's salary should be cut in half. We
have not suggested that people should not travel. We have
suggested that the members of the band should know what the
salaries are and they should know what the expenses are. That is
all we have said. We did not say to cut anyone's salary. We do
know that some of those chiefs are earning upward of $150,000 a
year tax free. I think their members would have a bit of a
problem with that.
The final answer to the member's question is there will be
another meeting hosted by my friend from Wild Rose in Edmonton
this Saturday. I would really urge the member if he is concerned
about the issue to please come and listen to these people. My
friend from Wild Rose will not be saying very much. He will be
listening and I urge the member from across the way to do the
same thing.
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Eastern Shore, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I used to live in the Yukon Territory and I worked quite
extensively with the Kaska-Dena council in that area. Now I am
working with northern fishing groups who are mostly aboriginal,
first nations and Metis people in northern Saskatchewan and
northern Manitoba for them to gain more control or access to
their own resource in terms of the fishing industry.
I know it is a long question and deserves a long answer, but
would the member and his party not agree that the government and
we as parliamentarians should be helping aboriginal and Metis
people to gain greater access and control of their own resources?
Mr. Mike Scott: Mr. Speaker, we should certainly be doing
everything we can as parliamentarians and as representatives to
work toward improving the economic circumstances of aboriginal
people. We know that they face some of the most desperate
circumstances in this country. We know that is not acceptable
when our Prime Minister lauds this country as one of the best in
the world in which to live and we have people essentially living
in third world conditions. That frankly is wrong. I agree with
the member. We have a responsibility and we should take it
seriously.
1310
We have to address the issue of accountability at the outset.
Before we can get on to anything else, that needs to be resolved.
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
parliamentary secretary seemed to allude to the fact that there
really is not much problem in the way of accountability in these
reserves. In the department's own report as reported in the
Ottawa Citizen a couple of days ago, upward of 25% and
probably more are in dire need in terms of fiscal responsibility
and indebtedness.
I have been to the reserves and I have seen the conditions. I
have seen the people living in squalor. A report came down
through the department of Indian affairs that Canada is
considered the number one country in which to live, which is
great, but if we factored in the reserves, we would be about
number 65.
Is the member aware of the reports coming through the department
of Indian affairs and would he care to comment on them?
Mr. Mike Scott: Mr. Speaker, I thank my friend from Wild
Rose for his question. I am very aware of it. As a matter of
fact, we have been raising this issue as vociferously as we can
for well over a year and a half.
We are now finally starting to get the government's attention
because there has been a lot of press on this lately. There have
been front page articles in the Globe and Mail and stories
appearing on CTV and CBC. The government can no longer hide from
it. It has to admit that the policy of concealment is a failed
policy and that the government will have to deal with the issue.
I believe we will find that over the next year or year and a
half this issue will occupy much more time on the part of
government and certainly on the part of the Indian affairs
minister and the parliamentary secretary than it has in the last
10 or 12 years.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Before we resume
debate, the time for 20-minute speeches and 10 minutes of
questions and comments has expired. We will now go to 10-minute
presentations with no questions and comments.
Mr. Charlie Power (St. John's West, PC): Mr. Speaker, I
rise today to speak on Bill C-49, the first nations land
management act, on behalf of our caucus and our critic from the
south shore of Nova Scotia.
We know this act is not all encompassing. We know it does not
solve all the problems of our first nations, however our caucus
will be supporting it because it is a step in the right
direction.
This piece of legislation has been almost 10 years in the
making, beginning in 1989 as the lands revenue and trust review.
That agreement encompassed a number of areas, of which land
management was only one. While that agreement fell through, a
number of first nations persevered with negotiations for land
management.
A framework agreement on land management was signed by 13 first
nations on February 12, 1996. The 13 first nations were joined
on May 12, 1998 by Saint Mary's in New Brunswick to bring the
total number of first nations to 14. I would like to commend
these 14 first nations for taking the initiative to develop the
framework agreement and to persevere with it.
As we can see, it is progressing through the legislative
process. It is being watched carefully not only by the 14
signatories to the agreement who are eager to begin
implementation, but by many other first nations as well.
The framework agreement may become a model for other such
agreements on land management once this legislation passes and
the first nations are given the opportunity to implement it.
Thirty or forty first nations have already expressed an interest
in this framework agreement. I expect many more will do so as
they are able to see the benefits of such legislation.
We are all aware of the faults of the Indian Act. This
legislation will allow first nations to move out from under some
of the restrictions of the Indian Act and provide opportunities
for first nations to manage their own land and resources through
land codes that they will develop specific to their own
requirements.
Not only does this transfer authority from the federal
government to the first nations, but through the land codes it
also encourages stronger community participation. Land codes
must be ratified by the communities and voted on by those first
nations people living both on and off the reserve. This is an
onerous job but one that the first nations felt was important
enough to warrant the extra work.
By providing votes to those people living on and off reserve, it
broadens the process by including the experience and observations
that all these individuals might bring to this process.
1315
The legislation is necessary to implement the framework
agreement that deals specifically with land management. This is
not a treaty and has not changed the constitutional rights of
first nation peoples or the powers of section 91 and section 24
which state that reserve land is a federal jurisdiction. The
first nation land, which will remain reserve land as defined in
the Indian Act, will provide the first nations with greater
control and autonomy over these lands. It is a step toward
self-government, something this Progressive Conservative caucus
supports. We will continue to support the first nations in this
land management agreement.
Mr. Chris Axworthy (Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, on behalf of the New Democratic Party I am pleased to
participate in the debate of Bill C-49, an act to provide for the
ratification and the bringing into effect of the framework
agreement on first nations land management and to offer my
party's support for this important bill.
I am proud to be part of a party that has done so much to ensure
the issue of aboriginal self-government has received its rightful
attention in Canada. I am proud to be part of a party whose
provincial governments have done so much to ensure the
implementation of our obligations enshrined in treaties long
agreed to in the context of 1998. These treaties have provided
the rest of Canada with huge benefits. It is a privilege to be
supporting Bill C-49. I am glad the government has seen fit to
agree with 14 first nations in this context. I am pleased to see
that two Saskatchewan first nations, the Muskoday and Cowessess
are involved in this historical agreement.
In the spirit of the royal commission this bill honours a
federal government commitment to aboriginal people and the
implementation of new ideas oriented toward creating a new
relationship between the Government of Canada and first nations
peoples. Bill C-49 is an act to implement an agreement between
the federal government and 14 first nations. It relates to the
establishment of a new regime under which these first nations
will finally be have the power and the right recognized by the
Government of Canada to manage their own reserve lands and their
own resources.
These 14 first nations are opting out of the Indian Act land
management provisions but the act ensures that first nations
lands are protected for future generations by prohibiting any
surrender or sale or any expropriation by provincial or municipal
governments. It is a new partnership that increases the
self-reliance of aboriginal peoples in the management of their
own resources and their own futures. For that we must all be
very pleased.
This legislation must be viewed as a commitment by Canada to
aboriginal peoples, to the political evolution of first nations
and to the concept of self-government and self-determination to
which surely we are all fully committed. The process needs to be
linked to an orderly transition to a new relationship between
Canada and the first nations peoples.
First nations are plainly looking forward to obtaining the
responsibilities for managing their own lands and resources
contained in Bill C-49. This is a good agreement that will help
create employment and economic opportunities for aboriginal
people. It will also help to increase their own stewardship of
their own environment. In renewing the partnership with first
nations the federal government must implement policies and
government to government relations at a pace that works for first
nations and for all Canadians.
We support the idea that the framework agreement will be open to
other first nations. They may join if they feel ready and that
it is in their best interest to do so. We hope many more will do
so. We call on the government to ensure the right to
self-determination for first nations peoples and to maintain the
territorial integrity of each first nation.
The legislation supports the capacity building initiatives for
the implementation of self-government. We must be sure the
resources will be provided to facilitate the participation of
first nation women in the governance process.
1320
It has been unfortunate that members of the official opposition
have chosen to drive a wedge between Canadians and aboriginal
peoples in their discussion of not only this piece of legislation
but almost every other piece of legislation, policy or other
issue dealing with aboriginal peoples.
It is unfortunate that in the process members of the Reform
Party, including the members for Prince Albert and Athabasca,
have really attempted to accentuate any divisions that exist
within Canada regarding Canadians of non-aboriginal and
aboriginal descent.
It is not helpful, as we build relationships and move forward,
to accentuate the difficulties and to drive a wedge between
decent minded Canadians who want to find a solution to this
problem and aboriginal peoples. It is doing a disservice to all
of us as we see the incitement to disagreement, the incitement to
disregard and the incitement to lessening respect perpetrated by
members of the Reform Party.
It is good to see first nations within the constituencies of
Reform MPs pointing this out to their MPs in the hope that their
MPs will be more accurate, truthful and better represent their
constituents who are first nations. In particular the Muskoday
First Nation has being explicit, clear and firm with regard to
misleading comments by the member for Prince Albert, calling on
him to clear the air and to make sure he rectifies the statements
which he has made that give the impression that this is not an
agreement accepted by first nations people.
The Muskoday First Nation in its referendum voted 309 to 40, an
89% approval rating, for this agreement, almost as good as the
last NDP byelection in Athabasca where the NDP candidate received
94% of the vote. Those approval ratings are not only significant
but we do not see them very often.
Here we have both men and women in a first nations supporting
overwhelmingly the opportunity to finally take control over their
own resources.
It is time the Reform Party stopped baiting and antagonizing
Canadians. It must stop focusing on the negatives and start
building partnerships with aboriginal peoples. Bill C-49 is a
good example of this partnership between the federal government
and the 14 first nations that will strengthen the first nations
governance and support the development of strong communities and
strong local economies.
The NDP is fully in support of Bill C-49. We look forward to
its implementation and expansion to other first nations. We also
look forward to it ensuring that first nation peoples will
finally be able to express themselves in an appropriate way in
Canada with the full support of the federal government and the
Canadian people.
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan—Coquihalla, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise on behalf of the people of Okanagan—Coquihalla to speak on
Bill C-49, the first nations land management act.
The bill has special significance for the people of
Okanagan—Coquihalla, as my riding is home to the West Bank
Indian Band, one of the 14 first nations that will be affected if
the legislation passes.
The legislation will have a major impact on both native and
non-native residents living on West Bank lands. Currently the
federal, provincial and West Bank First Nations have come to an
agreement in principle that is even beyond the scope of this
bill.
Having reviewed both the first nations land management act and
the West Bank First Nations agreement in principle, I have two
very serious concerns that I would like to share with my
colleagues today and with the government.
First, the West Bank First Nation treaty process in principle
was negotiated by federal, provincial and aboriginal parties
without consulting the public.
1325
In fact there was a veil of secrecy that surrounded the
negotiations.
Second, preferential rights for certain Canadians to lands and
resources are entrenched throughout the draft of this agreement
based solely on race.
These two concerns are disturbing in a country such as Canada.
Secrecy and preferential treatment based on ethnicity do not mesh
with the spirit of democracy and equality before the law.
I would like to look at these two issues more closely. I
believe the majority of the Canadian public and backbench Liberal
MPs will agree these concerns warrant a rethinking of the way the
government deals with land management issues.
The first paragraph in the agreement in principle states:
Until otherwise agreed to by the parties, this agreement and
supporting documentation shall be treated as confidential by the
Government of Canada and the Westbank First Nation, subject only
to release to Westbank First Nation citizens for their
consideration.
Now there is Liberal democracy in action. While consent by the
Westbank First Nation through a referendum is required, the
remaining population of Westbank will not be consulted.
According to Indian affairs statistics the Westbank First Nation
is comprised of 517 members. Yet there are 7,000 non-natives on
Westbank land. They are voiceless on this bill and this issue.
To make matters worse, the final Westbank agreement will be
declared valid once approved by cabinet and the enactment of the
legislation. Once the needed legislation is passed by
parliament, the federal cabinet can simply move an amendment to
the agreement leaving no room for democratic review.
By not consulting non-aboriginal residents, the resource
industry and other interested parties, the Liberal government is
demonstrating its Meech Lakian tendency to reject bringing
democracy into the process of dealing with far reaching
aboriginal land claim issues.
My second concern is that this agreement compounded by Bill C-49
creates inequality by granting special rights and privileges
based solely on race. The Westbank First Nation made up of 517
individuals will be authorized to formulate its own constitution
with sweeping powers. The 7,000 non-aboriginal residents will be
largely excluded.
Will the law making power granted under this agreement, Bill
C-49, undermine the Constitution? Is the rule of law so little
regarded by our political leaders? From my reading of the
agreement and Bill C-49, I would have to answer yes to both of
those questions.
Take clause 37 in this bill:
In the event of any inconsistency or conflict between this act
and any other federal laws, this act prevails to the extent of
the inconsistency or conflict.
To me it sounds as though the rule of law and the supremacy of
the Constitution are being disregarded. Bill C-49 will undermine
the rule of law and the Constitution by granting to aboriginal
people the right to create laws that will supersede those of the
federal government.
Caught in the middle will be the 7,000 residents of Westbank who
are non-native. They will lose their rights to be governed by
the laws of Canada, subject instead to the laws set by the
minority based on race. This is absolutely unacceptable.
Debating legislation that grants special rights and privileges
to a select group is not something I imagined I would be debating
when I became a member of parliament in 1993.
The land management powers given to the Westbank government will
be extensive. It will have jurisdiction to manage, administer,
govern, control, regulate, use, protect and benefit from Westbank
lands. It will also be able to grant licences and control zoning
in addition to controlling access to and trespass on Westbank
lands. These are extraordinary powers given to a minority of
people on Westbank land.
The law making process under Bill C-49 and the Westbank First
Nation agreement also exclude the non-Indian majority living in
Westbank.
1330
Only Westbank citizens will be eligible to vote in elections for
the Westbank Band Council. Westbank citizens will be those 18
years or older on the Westbank band list. The majority in most
cases are non-ethnic first nations people and will have no vote
on the laws of the Westbank band though they will be bound by
those same laws. It appears to be taxation without
representation.
The most these non-aboriginal people are entitled to is to
making representations. I quote from the agreement in principle:
This flies in the face of the principles of democracy. How can
the government espouse democracy and equality abroad while
cultivating undemocratic institutions within our own borders?
Bill C-49 and the whole self-government process need to be
brought back to the drawing table. Canada has thrived as a
nation that has garnered international acclaim due to our quest
for the principles of democracy, equality and rule of law. As a
member of parliament with a number of Indian bands in my
constituency I have worked hard to support economic development
and educational development projects within natives communities.
However, trampling the rights of the majority is not the right
path to take and that is the path the Government of Canada has
chosen.
The secretive and piecemeal fashion in which we are approaching
land issues is a recipe for future discontent among all parties
involved. The Department of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development is part of the problem, not part of the solution. We
need to build a new and brighter future and a better relationship
between aboriginals and non-aboriginals. Aboriginal people need
to be full and equal citizens empowered to manage their own lives
without being marginalized. Bill C-49 is not the answer to this
problem.
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate in the
discussion of Bill C-49, an act providing for the ratification
and bringing into effect of the framework agreement on first
nation land management.
I listened with interest to my friend who represents an adjacent
constituency to mine. As in all matters I certainly respect his
views and appreciate all the work he has done. I have been very
supportive of a number of initiatives he has taken. I suspect my
comments may be somewhat in opposition to his. On the other hand
I acknowledge that many of the points he makes are the concerns
of people certainly in the areas that he and I represent.
As my friend indicated, I believe the issues surrounding the
relationship of aboriginal and non-aboriginal peoples will
probably be the most crucial issue in the early part of the 21st
century. We are beginning the long process of enabling first
nations peoples to take their rightful place in Canadian society.
The sooner we see the demise and ending of the Indian Act, the
sooner I will be happy.
I always thought it was very ironic that a copy of the Indian
Act has a longer title in brackets which reads “an act
respecting Indian people”. If ever there were a piece of
legislation that did not respect Indian people, it is the Indian
Act of Canada. We all agree that the patronizing nature of the
Indian Act should be replaced as soon as possible. Replaced in
what way is what this discussion and debate is all about.
1335
From my perspective and that of my party and of the hon. member
for Yukon, our critic, Bill C-49 is a step forward in bringing
self-government to a number of first nations.
There is a great deal of misunderstanding surrounding the issue
of self-government. There is a great deal of misinformation
being circulated about self-government. I do not suggest for a
moment that people are doing this or being motivated for anything
but the right reason. Sometimes I am suspicious of that.
Nevertheless, it is a difficult issue to discuss because of the
varying interpretations of self-government.
When first nations' people are asked what self-government means
there are many variations and definitions. I do not expect we
will ever find ourselves in a position where we will agree on a
single definition of self-government.
In terms of moving to the principle of self-government and how
it might be defined differently from place to place in Canada,
this is a major first step. It would replace the Indian Act and
the minister's discretion under that act for these 14 first
nations.
There is something rather insidious about a country where a
minister of Indian affairs and northern development is asked to
make decisions on probably an hourly basis about the lives of
first nations people. I just got off the telephone moments ago
from talking to an individual who is doing business on an Indian
reserve in the constituency of Kamloops, Thompson and Highland
Valleys. He asked me to intervene with the minister of Indian
affairs to have her approve a certain element of economic
development.
I thought it an odd situation that a minister or a bureaucrat
sitting in Ottawa would be required to sign off on a small piece
of economic development in a distant Indian reservation in
British Columbia. What kind of goofy system is that?
The bill is an attempt to get away from that goofiness and to
suggest that as smart as the minister Indian affairs is she
probably does not know much about running a little economic
development project on the edge of the Shuswap Lakes in British
Columbia. The fact that it requires her signature to begin this
project reflects the sort of lunacy of the way the system
presently operates.
This is a step in the right direction. Others perhaps may not
think so. It gives first nations law making powers with respect
to their land and resources, including the development,
conservation, protection, management, use and possession of land.
The first nations, however, will not be able to sell their land
but may develop or lease it to others. The first nations may
acquire land for community purposes. That is an obvious thing to
do in a free country. The bill sets out conditions for
accountability between first nations and their various members.
The government retains fiduciary responsibility. I appreciate
fiduciary responsibility is something that the federal government
has under the Constitution of Canada, but therein lies one of the
problems. I do not suppose this will change very much. It is a
redraft of Bill C-75 from 1996 which died in the last parliament.
The first nations involved are from a number of provinces:
British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario and
New Brunswick. If I were to identify two or three key points,
the first would be that this is an important step in the building
of self-government for aboriginal peoples across the country.
A significant issue has been the status of women in the
matrimonial home on reserve land upon the dissolution of
marriage. The B.C. Native Women's Society and other individuals
are pursuing opposition to the framework agreement through the
courts at this time. Hopefully when the bill gets to committee
we can find ways and means of addressing their concerns. If not
perhaps we have to relook the whole issue.
Another issue is non-native people who lease homes on reserve
land are unable to vote for those who will be able to make laws
which affect them. That is a reflection of the concern expressed
by some of the previous speakers earlier today about the rights
of non-aboriginal individuals who presently live on Indian
reservations and therefore will not have an opportunity to
participate in decision making of the band. This is a problem.
There is no question about that. It is something that needs
serious examination once the issue gets into committee.
1340
My hon. colleague from Saskatoon presented in a very articulate
and clear way the reasons we support the bill and some of our
very serious concerns at this point. However I want to add one
or two short points. Contrary to some comments being made by
some of my colleagues, section 15 of the charter which guarantees
equality applies to reserve lands and first nation laws. First
nations are not above the Constitution of Canada.
Bill C-49 protects the rights of women during marital breakdown.
Clause 5(4) of the framework agreement and clause 17 of the bill
require the 14 first nations in cases of marital breakdown to
establish rules and procedures dealing with two basic rights: the
right to possession of the matrimonial home and the right to
division of property.
This has been a bone of contention for many years, particularly
when it comes to women, and the legislation attempts to address
the issue. Whether or not it is adequate remains to be seen. We
will see what happens in committee when we hear from some of the
witnesses.
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to talk about the particular issue for a few moments and
would like to point out a couple of matters with regard to what
some of my colleagues have said. What Bill C-49 is trying to
accomplish is honourable. There is a purpose behind the bill
which I am sure a lot of people would like to see happen.
I would like to point out some things that have been said by
grassroots natives across the land from whom I have heard in the
last little while. One comment that sunk deep into my thoughts
was from an ex-chief of the Siksika nation in Alberta. He said
that before we could move to any of these kinds of agreements,
before we could begin to establish any kind of self-government
rule on native issues, we must make sure there are rules in place
that will hold all parties accountable for what happens in that
regard.
He is basing that comment on his experience in his own reserve
and a nearby reserve where his family members and grandchildren
live, the Stoney reserve. Members have heard many things about
the Stoney reserve, which is presently under review by auditors
and will continue to be until some answers are achieved. We
expect a report some day soon.
Comments like those of Roy Littlechief are being said across the
country. Many grassroots people I have talked with everywhere
are saying that accountability must be in place before we can
turn over any kind of self-government to those in charge on our
reserves. That makes sense to me now, having visited many
reserves and having seen the squalor many of these individuals
are living in.
People are living on reserves where there is no running water
and no electricity. They have a path instead of a bath. They do
not have the conveniences we are accustomed to in a great country
like Canada. The reason is that the dollars do not seem to be
there. When we try to find out about where the dollars may have
gone and what has happened there are no answers. When we try to
ask for an investigation because of the accusations of a number
of grassroots people from many of these reserves it is denied.
On one reserve I visited I carefully looked over some documents
the grassroots people managed to get their hands on. They
concerned payments from the social department on the reserve.
I looked down the list of these payments to the persons who were
in receipt. There would be the band member's name for $320,
another band member's name and perhaps $450. Suddenly we came to
a name and it was $9,500. In the next month that same name
reappeared only it was $8,000, several thousand dollars more than
anyone else was receiving on welfare. I asked the persons who
were in possession of these documents why this individual was
getting so much money on the welfare program and the others so
little. They reached into their files and brought out a death
certificate. The individual who was receiving $9,500 and $8,000
per month has been deceased for 13 years.
1345
You do not have to be a rocket scientist to think that is a
little strange and that it is something that ought to be checked
into. Yet when we question it through the department of Indian
affairs, then we question it above that, and we go to the RCMP
who agree that this probably should be investigated, it is all
stopped with the common answer that I get continually from the
Indian affairs department “it's an internal problem”. In other
words, let them solve it themselves.
It is more than an internal problem when these kinds of things
happen. There is accountability that we in this House owe to the
taxpayers of Canada whether we like to admit it or not. When we
pour billions of dollars into the top of the department of Indian
affairs, we should be accountable to the taxpayer where every
dollar of that goes, how is it being used and is it effective.
I have not found one taxpayer yet who is not pleased to put
money into a program such as Indian affairs providing it does the
job of looking after the people in need. Then there are reserves
with 90% unemployment, which is not unusual, 40% drug addictions,
not illegal drugs but medical, where alcoholism is running
rampant, where they have schools which can educate the people on
the reserves and only 16% of those eligible on the reserve are
attending the school. There is something wrong with that.
To jump into a bill like Bill C-49 and say we are going to do
that, the biggest fear that Roy Littlechief and other grassroots
people have is it will simply empower those who are in charge now
to a greater degree and things are going to get a whole lot worse
on an individual basis. He simply says deliver a message to
parliament. Make sure the things are in place that will make the
chiefs, councils and all the leaders right up the ladder
accountable for every dollar that goes into that department.
That is a pretty wise thing to say. A report from the
department of Indian affairs says: “As many as 25% of Canada's
500 Indian bands are broke enough that the federal government
will either have to intervene or take over financial management
this year”. This is what the Indian affairs managers said:
“The bands have made little headway in recent years to dig out
from debtloads that are causing federal officials grave concerns
even as aboriginals strive toward self-government. The trend
blamed on mismanagement, both by federal officials and Indian
leaders, has continued for the past five years. The problem is
like a revolving door. A dozen indebted bands get straightened
out and another 12 sink deep into debt”.
Those kinds of things are happening. My wife and I took tours
into reserves. We sat in tar paper shacks. We were hosted by
elders sitting on apple crates, doing the best they could to host
us with what they had and happy as could be that a member of
parliament for the first time in their history even dared step on
to the reserve to that length.
They have never had an opportunity to talk to a member of
parliament. They are crying out “What can you do to help us? We
live like this”.
1350
I say to the minister of Indian affairs why not address the
issue at hand, the squalor they are living in, the unaccounted
dollars. Make sure all the mechanisms are in place, then bring
Bill C-49 forward and she will probably find all kinds of support
once all those things are there to make sure the right things
happen on behalf of the people.
Some Conservatives, New Democrats and Liberals think it is a
shame that we are exploiting these people and that it is
opportunism. I will tell them what it is.
There are people out there who are suffering, starving, living
in squalor. That is what it is. It is a humanity issue. Every
member in this House ought to come aboard and help me to address
these grassroots problems. I invite members to do so instead of
being so critical about opportunism and all that other hogwash.
Get out there and start solving some problems. It is serious.
Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris—Moose Mountain, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, that is a pretty hard act to follow, but I will do my
best.
I agree with the hon. member for Wild Rose. It seems with this
bill we are putting the proverbial cart before the horse. Some
may ask why I have spoken so many times on bills that relate to
natives? I speak on anything related to my constituency. Because
I have a lot of natives who live in the constituency on reserves,
I am profoundly interested in them. I am profoundly interested
in what they say to me.
I also have received phone calls from people telling me
something very loud and clear and no one can escape it. Get your
head out of the sand in the House of Commons. Wake up and see
what is out there in the real world.
As the chief said to me the other day, how can we have an
extension of a business arrangement with land management when we
do not have a government to proceed with those affairs? There
are fancy terms like new partnership, but we will not have a new
partnership until we have accountability. The government has no
business whatsoever in bringing forth bills like this until it
establishes the basic ground rules for self-government.
Why is it not doing that? Why do we have no self-government?
What is it afraid of? It simply does not want to face reality.
Anyone can say we can have partnership, land expansion and all
kinds of new businesses, but no one would be happier than Reform
to see a business success survive on the reserve survive on new
land. We would all love that. But if they do not have the tools
to establish that business and govern that business, what do we
think will happen? The member for Wild Rose stated it very
clearly and saw where the money was going. There is no
accountability.
I know Indians are worried about accountability and for the most
part it is quite transparent. How can members opposite put out
well over $6 billion with no accountability for that money?
1355
If we are to establish a land venture and a business venture, if
we are to bring in the people who want to come into line with the
new millennium, we cannot expect them to do so until from the
grassroots up they know about government and business and until
they can walk with their heads high and know they can go to the
office any time to get an accurate account of how the money was
spent. Until the government wakes up to the fact that it will
continue to blow billions of dollars without having
accountability, it should not expect a partnership.
I will give an example from the House. Here we have the Bloc
that wants to separate from Canada. When it does so, it will
negotiate the terms. It is completely backwards. We should be
negotiating the terms so intelligent people in Quebec and in the
rest of Canada can know what the separation is about. The same
thing exists with Bill C-49. We are creating land management.
We hope we will create business associated with the land
management but we have not provided the people who need it the
most with a model for self-government. Shame on this government.
Shame on this government for ever using the term partnership.
This is the most important social issue facing Canada today. This
issue is so profound that it is growing every day. And what is
the government doing about it? Nothing. The minister of Indian
affairs says it is because we want a new partnership. I know the
Liberal Party wants to condemn me for being anti-native. Do not
come to my constituency or talk to my natives and say that. They
want self-government and they want the leadership of this
government to provide them with that.
The Speaker: The member will have the floor when
we come back. He still has four and a half minutes to make
his point. It is almost 2 o'clock and so we will proceed to
Statements by Members.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Mr. Ted McWhinney (Vancouver Quadra, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the decision by the British House of Lords judicial committee
that General Pinochet must face the request by Spain for his
extradition on charges of crimes against humanity during his
period as head of the Chilean regime is not merely a decision
updating the customary international law and treaty rules on the
doctrine of immunity of heads of government. It also sends a
signal to the world community on the acceptance of the principle
of legal hue and cry and universality of jurisdiction to pursue
and judge crimes against humanity and similar heinous offences.
* * *
HEPATITIS C
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, one year
ago the Krever report on tainted blood was presented to
Canadians. The expert on a Canadian health tragedy made some
major recommendations, first a new system of blood governance. On
this we have made progress. His second recommendation was clear
lines of authority to bring about scientific advances in
transfusion. Here there has also been some progress. Third,
there should be compensation for all the victims of hepatitis
C from dirty blood. On this subject there is absolute failure.
The decision to financially help only the few victims infected
between 1986 and 1990 is based on legal and technical argument.
Forgotten is the issue of compassion. During this anniversary
year, 1,200 hepatitis C victims have died, their hope after
reading the Krever report dashed, their families' dreams and
wishes lost. I wear black today in memory of those victims and
to remind this House that not one nickel of help has gone to the
victims—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Perth—Middlesex.
* * *
PARTNERS IN PEACE
Mr. John Richardson (Perth—Middlesex, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it is my pleasure to draw the attention of the House to
the presence in the gallery of six Bosnian students who are here
on a 10 day visit to Canada. The Department of National Defence
is proud to have provided support for the Partners in Peace
initiative of the Rotary Club of Edmonton Riverview. These young
people were flown to Canada on a Canadian forces aircraft and
members of the Canadian forces accompanied them during their many
activities.
1400
During their stay they visited the city of Edmonton and got a
taste of our national pastime by attending an Edmonton Oilers
hockey game.
These young students participated in leadership,
multiculturalism, unity and peace activities with Canadians of
their own age. They also shared their experiences of war with
their Canadian peers. At the same time, Canadian students
benefited from being able to hear firsthand about the
difficulties confronting Bosnian youth.
On behalf of all of us, I would like to welcome these
ambassadors of peace to the House of Commons and wish them well.
* * *
HURRICANE MITCH
Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise
to thank all Canadians who are helping the people of Honduras and
other Central American countries in the aftermath of hurricane
Mitch.
The outpouring of aid is extraordinary.
While I hesitate to mention particular groups, I am most
familiar with the work of two from Peterborough, the Friends of
Honduran Children and Candles for Cuba.
Friends has helped Honduran children for many years. It has
become a conduit for aid from our YM-YWCA, churches, schools and
workplaces such as G.E. Canada. The Candles for Cuba group has
diverted its energy and aid from Cuba to Honduras during this
crisis.
I commend the work of all groups like these and I am glad that
the federal government and our armed forces are so actively
involved in this relief effort.
Our thoughts and our prayers are with the hurricane victims.
* * *
THE HOMELESS
Ms. Aileen Carroll (Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, as winter approaches the chronic problem of homelessness
and the plight of the homeless escalate to an acute level.
The mayor of Toronto's homelessness action task force has issued
interim findings which include the disturbing fact that 19% or
5,300 of the homeless people are children.
The task force is setting out guidelines for planning a strategy
to break the cycle of homelessness. While programs such as Out
of the Cold and shelters such as the Moss Park Armouries can
offer band-aid solutions to this increasing problem, many
indicators focus on the need for a co-ordinated effort involving
all levels of government to attack the underlying causes of this
problem.
The responsibilities of the federal, provincial and municipal
governments for income, housing supply and health issues need to
be clarified.
Although the problem is most acute in Toronto and other large
cities, there are homeless people and caring community activists
in my riding in Barrie and Bradford—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Souris—Moose Mountain.
* * *
CANADIAN FARMERS
Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris—Moose Mountain, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food was informed
when we returned to the House after the summer break that farmers
were going broke.
Since that time—and it has taken weeks of pressure—he finally
believes what we already knew. The minister now agrees that
farmers need assistance, but he still does not understand.
He wants the aid he gives the farmers to be matched by the
provinces. That does not make sense in Saskatchewan.
Does he not realize that Saskatchewan has the highest proportion
of farmers to its population? Does he not realize that
Saskatchewan is more dependent on the agri-food industry than any
other province?
If farmers are not making money in Saskatchewan, Saskatchewan is
not making money.
This government did not ask Newfoundland to cough up money when
its cod stocks were depleted and it should not be asking
Saskatchewan to cough up the money now.
* * *
CANADIAN FARMERS
Mr. Wayne Easter (Malpeque, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Canada
has one of the best safety net systems in the world. It includes
the net income stabilization account, or NISA, crop insurance and
companion programs.
In normal circumstances these safety net measures create income
stability for farmers. However, today the hog and grain
producers are not facing normal circumstances. This crisis is
far greater than NISA was designed to handle.
The current farm income crisis demands an extraordinary
response.
I know some producers who are facing the loss of the family
farm. I understand the stress and trauma that this inflects on
individuals and families.
In the short term we must respond to these farmers whose
livelihoods are threatened. I know that the Minister of
Agriculture and Agri-Food has been working hard to resolve this
issue. He has my support and I hope he has the support of this
House.
* * *
[Translation]
JACQUES PARIZEAU
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
former PQ leader Jacques Parizeau on his way through the
Outaouais region yesterday wanted to pull a fast one on the
media.
The old rascal wanted to talk about independence, but behind
closed doors.
His approach raised the ire of the media, and the doors were
opened immediately.
1405
Mr. Parizeau finally spoke the truth about the separatists'
strategy. Both he and the PQ say they are interested only in
federal government money. Jacques Parizeau has finally cut
through the smoke screen over separatist strategies.
We must give him credit: he finally revealed the truth of the PQ
strategy.
A vote for the PQ is a vote for the referendum. It is a vote
for separation.
* * *
[English]
YEAR 2000
Mr. Philip Mayfield (Cariboo—Chilcotin, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the clock is ticking. There are just 400 days until the
year 2000. Do we know if our government will be ready?
The federal government insists that it is doing all it can to
prepare itself for the year 2000, but is it doing too little too
late in trying to cure the millennium bug?
Only now are Canadians starting to realize the serious
implications of the Y2K problem, but a recent Industry Canada
survey shows that many people still feel the government will be
ready in time. We know that will not happen.
Senior bureaucrats testifying before the industry committee say
that parliamentarians can play an important role in raising
public awareness of this issue. But how can we when the
government is not providing an accurate picture of its own
readiness?
We have seen little leadership from government ministers. They
are all too willing to pass the buck. They offer no clear
leadership or direction. How can government leaders say that
they are doing all they can to be ready for the year 2000?
* * *
[Translation]
MERCHANT MARINE VETERANS
Mr. René Laurin (Joliette, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in 1992, the
veterans of the merchant marine were given the same status as
the veterans of the armed forces. They were thus entitled to
the same pensions and compensation. However, this substantial
progress was not made retroactive. Accordingly, the veterans of
the merchant marine are being discriminated against.
Furthermore, the status of veteran was given to sailors in the
merchant marine but denied civilians who served during the
second world war, but only in sectors not considered combat
zones. As enemy submarines struck in waters around the world,
these sailors feel they faced the same risks as all Canadian
sailors.
The Bloc Quebecois considers unjust the treatment afforded the
former members of the merchant marine who filled a vital role,
all the more meritorious because it was dangerous.
We therefore ask that they be accorded the same status and the
same benefits as their comrades who fought in the armed forces,
and retroactively.
* * *
ELECTION CAMPAIGN IN QUEBEC
Mr. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we are in the
home stretch of the Quebec election campaign.
The PQ has resorted to tricks, intellectual dishonesty, ploys
and manipulation. Can you believe that, yesterday, during the
television program Le Point, Lucien Bouchard thought of himself
as Robert Bourassa?
The PQ is trying to hoodwink Quebeckers. It talks about winning
conditions, plotting and scheming to make us believe that Lucien
Bouchard will fight for social union and renewed federalism.
Next time, he will even invite us on an organized trip to the
Rocky Mountains.
I am not interested in Lucien Bouchard's renewed federalism. I
will vote for true federalism. I do not want to hear about
separation. I want nothing to do with tricks. I am not
interested in a referendum, period.
I will vote for a stronger Quebec within Canada.
On November 30, let us put an end to Bouchard's tricks. Let us
vote for a better future for all. Let us vote for truth. Let us
vote Liberal.
* * *
[English]
CANADA'S BLOOD SUPPLY
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, today marks the first anniversary of the Krever report.
Judge Krever recommended no-fault compensation for all victims of
tainted blood.
He recommended that blood products used in Canada should be made
from unpaid donors, not high risk American donors. He
recommended active regulation by the health protection branch.
There has been little or no action on these recommendations. We
will continue to raise issues of blood safety, fair compensation
for victims of hepatitis C and urge action on the Krever report.
However, we cannot forget those who rely on our donations of
blood for their lives and health. We want to see a safe and
efficient blood system that will be there for all Canadians.
This Monday the NDP caucus is sponsoring a blood donor clinic in
Room 200 of the West Block. The telephone number to make an
appointment is 236-0199. My leader and I will be donating blood
together at 11 a.m. and we encourage members of all parties and
staff of the House of Commons and the Senate to give this gift of
life.
* * *
[Translation]
ELECTION CAMPAIGN IN QUEBEC
Mr. Claude Drouin (Beauce, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on Monday,
November 30, Quebeckers will make a crucial decision concerning
the future of Canada.
A vote for the PQ is nothing less than a vote to trigger the
process of Quebec's separation from the rest of Canada.
1410
A vote for the ADQ is simply a lost vote. A vote for the Liberal
Party is a vote for health, education and economic growth.
On November 30, let us not take any chances, because we prefer
by far a Liberal government that will ensure Quebec's economic
growth by, among other things, restoring confidence among
foreign investors who contribute to that growth.
On November 30, I will vote Liberal because I believe in my
country. I believe in a strong Quebec for our children and our
grandchildren. Let us pass on to them a country with the world's
best quality of life, Canada. Let us vote Liberal.
* * *
JOB CREATION IN MONTREAL
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, once again,
all those prophets of doom across the country should hang their
heads in shame. Employment in Quebec is rising.
On November 6, Statistics Canada confirmed that the unemployment
rate in Quebec was below 10% for the first time since the early
1990s.
This morning, the media informed us that Montreal ranked among
the 10 major North America cities where job creation is the
best. In fact, job creation has not been this good in Montreal
since 1987.
We have had it with the arrogance of the Liberals. Quebec is
recovering from the ravages of nine years of Liberal rule and we
have the expertise of Lucien Bouchard's team to thank for that.
I for one am confident and, come Monday, I will be voting for
good government.
* * *
KREVER COMMISSION REPORT
Ms. Diane St-Jacques (Shefford, PC): Mr. Speaker, one year ago
today, the government released the Krever report.
One of the recommendations was that the government compensate
all victims of hepatitis C.
However, instead of taking an approach based on compassion and
respect for all the victims, who have had an incalculable price
to pay emotionally and financially, the Liberal government
continues to insist on excluding those infected before 1986.
Meanwhile, victims like Stan Marshall, the young man who was
featured in the Toronto Star this morning, are dying one after
the other.
Stan Marshall died last month after years of fighting, seething
rage and frustration fueled by the irresponsible attitude of
this government, which neglects to put its moral duty before
anything else.
What is the government waiting for to act? For all the victims
to have died one by one?
* * *
[English]
NATIONAL AIDS AWARENESS WEEK
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
this week is national AIDS awareness week and I would like to
take this opportunity to address the House on this very important
issue.
As most Canadians know, AIDS is a deadly disease. By the end of
1997 Health Canada had reported a total 15,528 AIDS cases since
the beginning of the epidemic. Many of these cases have ended in
death.
I think it is important, especially during this week, to
emphasize the risks and dangers of this horrible disease. Only
through public awareness and education can we attempt to solve
this problem. In recent years the level of reported cases has
dropped, but there is still much ground to cover.
I urge all Canadians to find out more about AIDS and to help in
the fight against it. We must and we will defeat this terrible
disease.
* * *
APEC INQUIRY
Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, as the APEC affair begins to unravel for the Prime
Minister and his disgraced former solicitor general, we hear
today of an increase in the suspension of Terry Milewski, the
maligned CBC journalist who first brought this APEC fiasco to
light.
It is bad enough to have the Prime Minister's office unleash its
attack dogs on Terry Milewski in an attempt to discredit and
muzzle his investigative research, but it is quite another to
have the CBC president become the lap dog of the Prime Minister's
office.
The Prime Minister's staff undoubtedly put pressure on CBC board
members and CBC president Perrin Beatty to have Milewski back
off. In a fashion befitting a person pandering to have his
contract renewed, Perrin Beatty handed Milewski an additional 15
day suspension, and this in the face of the solicitor general's
resignation. I think it is time that Perrin Beatty resigned as
president of the CBC.
* * *
1415
ST. ANDREW'S SOCIETY
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, today I
pay tribute to the contribution that the Scottish people have
made to the development and life of Canada.
In 1542 a Scot by the name of David Ross was the first to map
the mouth of the St. Lawrence River. Following Mr. Ross, the
Scots continued to map out the new world.
In my riding of Saint John, New Brunswick, the St. Andrew's
Society founded in 1798 is celebrating 200 years of unbroken
history in service to the city of Saint John, the province of New
Brunswick and the whole of Canada.
Never numbering much over 150 members, these past 200 years the
society has provided sixteen mayors, four lieutenant governors of
New Brunswick, one lieutenant governor of British Columbia, one
premier of New Brunswick, one chief justice of Canada, three
senators, as well as national and international leaders in
business, law, finance and education.
This is a very proud record. I wish to publicly congratulate
the oldest Scottish society of Canada on 200 proud years of
heritage and contribution to Canada.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
AGRICULTURE
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
for a year now the Prime Minister has known that a farm crisis
has been looming in our country. Prices have been falling and
foreign farmers continue to receive billions of dollars in unfair
subsidies.
The only new farm laws that the government has brought in are to
initiate taxes on farm fuels and fertilizers and to make it a
crime for farmers to sell their wheat.
Why does the Prime Minister not stand up for farmers instead of
finding new ways to punish them regularly?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I challenge the hon. member to be a bit
more specific as far as taxes on fertilizers and fuels are
concerned. They have always been there. We know that. As we
know we would all like to pay lower taxes.
We have recognized and we are recognizing the severity of the
situation they are facing at present. We are working with our
officials, within the cabinet, with the provincial governments
and with the industry to do all we can as quickly as we can.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
we can just see how much support there is for that. He has to do
more than just continue talking.
The United States has just pumped $6 billion more of new unfair
subsidies into its farms. That is on top of the already billions
of dollars that they have. Subsidies make up 30% of a farmer's
income. The Europeans are subsidizing unfairly $60 billion a
year to their farmers. It is impossible for our farmers to
compete.
Why does the Prime Minister not start tackling and taking on the
Americans and the European bullies for their huge subsidies to
farmers?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I find these comments very strange from
the party that does not want to support agriculture.
In the debate we had in the Chamber a couple of weeks ago they
were continually questioned not only by members from this side
but the other opposition members on what they suggested. They
did not have any suggestions.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
it was our motion on agriculture that we debated in the House not
long ago. Perhaps he has had a little memory loss.
It is easier to arrest a farmer in Manitoba than to challenge
the big U.S. department of agriculture. It is easier for the
government to increase user fees and fertilizer taxes in
Saskatchewan than it is to talk to Americans and Europeans about
lowering their subsidies.
Here is the problem. Foreign subsidies are too high and
Canadian taxes are too high. Why does the government not admit
that its heavy handed tax collectors and the light weight
ministers abroad that will not tackle this issue are the real
problem?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, again I find this absolutely amazing. In
their taxpayers budget they were to cut funding to departments
like agriculture, industry, fisheries and natural resources by
$640 million.
They would take away from these departments another $690 million
on a regional basis.
1420
There is a little contradiction in the point that the hon.
member is trying to make.
* * *
APEC INQUIRY
Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, my question is for the acting prime minister.
The Prime Minister in the House over the last few weeks has said
with regard to the public complaints commission “I want the
Canadian public to have the whole answer as soon as possible”.
Today a federal court judge ruled that the panel chair cannot
continue in his job until another judge makes a decision as to
whether or not he is biased. That could take six months. It
could take a year. That is not getting anything going. The APEC
inquiry is off until that is heard.
Will the acting prime minister now commit to Canada to have a
judicial inquiry so we can get on to this issue very quickly and
get it over with?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it is my understanding that the federal court said that
the panel should not continue its hearings until the allegations
of bias are dealt with by the federal court. I think that is an
approach which is understandable. It does not mean that the
panel will not continue. We do not know what the results will
be. Let us wait to hear what the court says.
Also, the government has no authority under the law to stop the
public complaints commission from carrying out the work given it
by parliament. I do not know why the hon. member insists on
interfering on the floor of the House with the work of the
commission.
Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, the government has all the power in the world to
start a judicial inquiry tomorrow to get to the bottom of this
issue.
In the House the Prime Minister and the acting prime minister
say let the commission work. They cannot have it both ways. Ivan
Whitehall, the Prime Minister's lawyer, made no representations
at all to the judge about the delay and the problems that will
cause.
We know delays do not help the situation. Even the Prime
Minister said let us get this behind us. Let us get on to the
issue of health care. Let us get on to the issue of taxes. Let
us have a judicial inquiry right now and get this issue solved
once and for all.
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we do not know as yet just how long the delay will be
before the federal court rules. Before we get worked up like the
hon. member is, let us see what the federal court says. Then it
will be easier to see about the continued work of the public
complaints commission which was established by parliament.
I repeat, the federal government does not have the authority
under the law to tell the public complaints commission not to
continue its work.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in the
APEC commission notice to appear, the chair of the RCMP public
complaints commission limits commissioners to examining the
conduct of RCMP members on the university campus between
November 23 and 27, 1997.
Given this limited mandate, and particularly given the fact that
we heard today that the proceedings are being suspended
indefinitely, how can the Prime Minister say that the
commissioners will be free to investigate his own conduct?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
think we must wait for the federal court to make its ruling.
I think that the hon. member has asked a question that is not
relevant right now.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, what
is not relevant is that we were told today that the solicitor
general would be here, but he is being kept under wraps. They
do not want him to say anything, so he is still absent from the
House. That is what is not relevant, to use his word.
The Speaker: As we all know, it is not permitted to comment on
the absence or presence of a member in the House. I would ask
that this not happen again during oral question period.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: Mr. Speaker, everyone knows that the RCMP
commissioner is appointed by the government and reports to the
solicitor general, who is himself appointed by the government.
What makes the Deputy Prime Minister think that one or the other
of them could blame the Prime Minister? It is ridiculous and no
one believes it.
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
hon. member has made an inaccurate statement.
RCMP commissioners do not report to the solicitor general. He
plays no role, except that of receiving the report. The
commission is independent, as set out in the legislation passed
by this parliament.
1425
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in order to
fend off the accusations that he suspended the civil liberties
of the Vancouver APEC summit protestors, the Prime Minister is
counting on the RCMP public complaints commission, the mandate
of which, according to him, should allow everything to be
brought out into the light of day.
How can we trust in the commission's ability to investigate,
when François Lavigne, one of the investigators, confirms that
it is not independent and that he was frequently asked to change
reports prejudicial to the RCMP?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
commission has been in operation for ten years. From all
reports, it has a very good record, and I believe we must let it
do its work, though obviously under the aegis of the federal
court.
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the former
solicitor general ought to be exactly the right person to know
that, in its ten years, the commission has never had to
investigate the behaviour of a prime minister, as it is going to
have to this time.
How could this commission of inquiry into police conduct feel
comfortable investigating the behaviour of the Prime Minister,
when he goes so far as to publicly prevent his solicitor general
from speaking to journalists, by taking his arm and leading him
away? What kind of message on ethics is the Prime Minister
sending to the members of this commission of inquiry?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, when
calling public hearings into APEC last February, the commission
stipulated that members must “examine all aspects of these
complaints, hear all related testimony, ensure a fair and
impartial hearing in relation to these complaints, and report
the recommendations as authorized”.
It is obvious that the commission intends to do what is
necessary.
[English]
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, like a
wind-up toy the Prime Minister keeps saying let the commission do
its work. He pretends that he wants Canadians to know the truth
as quickly as possible.
Now the commission has shut down for six months. If the Prime
Minister really wants Canadians to learn the truth, why does he
not put an end to this Keystone Cops farce and appoint a full
independent public inquiry now?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it has not been established that the commission will not
be able to begin its hearings again for six months. That is
speculation in the media. The federal court has not said when it
will finish its deliberations on the allegations of bias.
My hon. friend has the premise of her question all wrong, as is
usually the case with her questions.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, it is
just not working. The Prime Minister closed the commission
because he knows it will not work. He knows it is fatally
wounded. He knows the commission will never get to the truth.
Why does the Prime Minister not just admit that he will not
appoint a full independent public inquiry because he does not
want Canadians to learn the truth?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member's assertion is totally wrong. The Prime
Minister has said over and over again in the House that he wants
all the facts to come out and he looks forward to the commission
helping that to happen.
The commission is independent according to the law set out by
parliament. I have said before and I say again that I appreciate
her vote of confidence in the Prime Minister because she wants
the person that she is attacking to set up the commission. I
thank her again for the vote of confidence. For a change she has
said something right. Of all the things she has said so far
about which she knows something it is that the Prime Minister is
a person of integrity and he—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Burin—St. George's.
* * *
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Bill Matthews (Burin—St. George's, PC): Mr. Speaker,
the Minister of Agriculture has known for almost a year that
farmers were suffering through one of the most severe financial
crises in history.
Time is of the essence, but the minister chooses to take the let
us wait and see approach. The minister now can see that farmers
have to resort to destroying their livestock.
How many more farmers have to go bankrupt before the minister
and the government find compassion and announce a comprehensive
compensation package?
1430
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I certainly do not enjoy any more than
anyone else the unfortunate situation too many producers are in
now, and the unfortunate situation where some producers have had
to choose to destroy their livestock or make them suffer.
For that very reason I am talking to my cabinet colleagues and
talking to the provinces. We are going to do all we possibly can
as quickly as we can. We will do it thoroughly and we will do it
with the due diligence it needs to be given as we go through that
process.
Mr. Bill Matthews (Burin—St. George's, PC): Mr.
Speaker, I say to the minister the time for due diligence is
running out.
It is unfortunate that this government's lack of farming
experience at the cabinet table is taking a toll on farmers
across Canada. Farmers are going under while the Minister of
Agriculture and Agri-Food and the Minister of Finance quarrel
over fiscal priorities.
Will the government prove that it has the will to support
Canada's agricultural industry in this crisis? I ask the Minister
of Agriculture and Agri-Food, did he have enough clout at the
cabinet table to announce an emergency aid program for Canadian
farmers?
The Speaker: Colleagues, once again we are having a tough
time hearing the questions and the answers.
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member wants to get personal,
I will challenge him with the number of years that I have spent
in agriculture.
I also challenge him in the renewed and refreshing interest that
the Tory party has in agriculture. Prior to the last election
the Tories said that they would continue and expand the practice
of cost recovery in the areas of the food inspection and
regulatory agency and then speed up the elimination of subsidies
to take more than $6 million out of—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Medicine Hat.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, when
this minister left the farm, I would say he also left farmers
behind.
Farm incomes in Canada have dropped 46% in the last year. We
have seen user fees go up 28% in the last three years because of
the finance minister and the agriculture minister. We see
foreign subsidies going up. We see taxes going up.
When is the ag minister going to get tough with the Europeans
and with the finance minister and make sure that those European
subsidies start to go down and that Canadian taxes go down for
farmers?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I know full well the difficulty that
producers are in. That is why we are taking this seriously. We
are working to put a plan in place that will assist those who are
the hardest hit as quickly as we can.
When I go back to my riding on the weekends, which happens to be
a farming community, I talk to farmers. I do not think the hon.
member talks to too many on the weekends.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
minister has known for a year that this problem was coming. What
is he doing today by going to cabinet to say all of a sudden we
have problems? What took him so long to figure things out?
Why was he talking to farmers last weekend instead of over the
last year? Why does he not come up with some long term solutions
for farmers? What he is proposing simply is not good enough. We
need long term solutions.
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is refreshing. The Reform Party has
said for years that farmers should not have subsidies, that
farmers should not have support and all of a sudden it now cares
about farmers.
* * *
1435
[Translation]
APEC SUMMIT INQUIRY
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
remarks made by Mr. Lavigne, the investigator who stated that
the RCMP public complaints commission had neither the
independence nor the means to do its job properly, have been
confirmed by Pierre-Yves Delage, who, until March, was the
commission's senior counsel.
In light of this development, is the commission, which is only
an administrative tribunal, powerful enough to blame the Prime
Minister and his office staff?
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Hon. Herb Gray: Mr. Speaker, with your permission, I would ask
the hon. member to put his question again.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: If the hon. could simply put his question.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: In light of the facts in the whole APEC
affair, is the commission, which is only an administrative
tribunal, powerful enough to blame the Prime Minister and his
office staff?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
commission noted on October 5 that it was absolutely necessary
not only to hear evidence on the events but also an explanation
on why they occurred and that is why it intends to go wherever
the evidence given by our witnesses leads it.
It is obvious that the commission can and wishes to do its job.
We ask that the hon. member let the commission do its job.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
does the Deputy Prime Minister not understand that the only way
all our concerns about the Prime Minister's involvement in the
APEC affair can be put to rest is by appointing an independent
commission that would report directly to parliament and whose
specific task would be to investigate the actions of the Prime
Minister and those of his entire staff at the PMO, and to shed
light once and for all on this whole matter?
I hope he understood the question and will answer it.
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
under the Inquiries Act, the authority to appoint a commission
is vested in the Prime Minister, not parliament.
If the hon. member is asking that the Prime Minister appoint a
commission, I wish to thank him for the vote of confidence for
the Prime Minister.
* * *
[English]
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister for International Trade.
Many Canadians are asking how we got into this farm crisis.
High taxes here in Canada and massive foreign subsidies.
This year the European governments will pay their farmers over
$60 billion. The U.S., not to be outdone, will match European
subsidies. This has all the makings of an all-out trade war.
Will the Minister for International Trade phone his U.S.
counterpart to work together to reduce these foreign subsidies in
Europe to protect our Canadian farmers?
Hon. Sergio Marchi (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we already did that a long time ago.
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, our
Canadian farmers can compete with any farmers around the world on
the basis of production but they cannot compete on the basis of
foreign government subsidies and massive treasuries.
If the minister has phoned his U.S. trade counterpart, can he
tell us today one positive result of that phone conversation?
Hon. Sergio Marchi (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have the same faith in our farming
community across the country. We have raised it repeatedly not
only with my counterpart, Charlene Barshefsky, but also with Leon
Brittan.
In addition to that, our Prime Minister has repeatedly raised
this with the President of the United States and the European—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
1440
The Speaker: The Minister for International Trade, if he
wishes to continue.
Hon. Sergio Marchi: As I was saying, Mr. Speaker, the
Prime Minister also raised it at the last Canada-European summit.
It will be on the agenda again when the Europeans visit this
capital in two weeks time.
We have appealed to both sides that the commodity base has been
whacked enough without engaging in this war between subsidies
from North America and the European Union. We are hopeful that
they will take heed.
* * *
[Translation]
SOCIAL UNION
Mr. Pierre Brien (Témiscamingue, BQ): Mr. Speaker, yesterday,
the premiers of Saskatchewan, Ontario, New Brunswick and Quebec
once again asked that the social union issue be settled before
the next federal budget.
However, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs says there is
no urgency and that it would be easier to negotiate with a
federalist government in Quebec.
Does the minister realize that, in making this comment, he is
sending us the message that with a more docile government in
Quebec, a Jean Charest government, provincial demands would be
lesser and thus easier to meet for the federal government?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, this is a false allegation. I never said there was no
urgency. I said we were negotiating and good progress was being
made.
Quebeckers do not want to separate. It would be better if they
did not elect a separatist government. Quebeckers are confident.
It would be better if they did not elect a party that relies on
mistrust.
The Canadian social union is about all Canadians helping one
another, something which the member does not seem to be able to
grasp.
Mr. Pierre Brien (Témiscamingue, BQ): Mr. Speaker, how can the
minister explain that, while the ten premiers agree on social
union, he is the one dragging his feet, the one in no hurry, the
one who seems to want to sabotage the talks?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, yesterday, the former PQ leader, Jacques Parizeau, said
that, for Quebec, social union consists in getting its loot.
During the ice storm, the other Canadians did not give their
loot to Quebeckers. They gave their heart and generosity. In
Manitoba, we did not give our loot; we gave our heart and
generosity.
The Canadian social union is about the heart and generosity of
all Canadians. It is about a country that Quebeckers have built
with the other Canadians, and they will not give control to
people who want to destroy it.
* * *
[English]
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Jake E. Hoeppner (Portage—Lisgar, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, when foreign governments overfished Canadian waters,
Brian Tobin stood up to them, but when foreign governments attack
our Canadian farmers with tens of billions of dollars in
subsidies, this Liberal government does nothing to stop these
attacks.
Why do prairie farmers not deserve the same type of respect that
fishermen got when their livelihood was at stake?
Hon. Sergio Marchi (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the minister of agriculture outlined
quite well and eloquently this afternoon that the farming
community is a building block of this country.
He said that the farming community will get the support of this
government and that we have appealed not only to the United
States and the European Union but we are also trying to find
common ground with other countries, like Australia and New
Zealand, and Latin America. Then the international community
will be able to deal with this in an even-handed way.
Mr. Jake E. Hoeppner (Portage—Lisgar, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, things are now so bad on the family farm that hog
producers cannot even afford to feed their animals. Canadians
watched the news in disbelief last night. Farmers are forced to
kill their pigs because there is not enough money to feed them.
How could this Liberal government let things get that bad?
1445
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the member knows full well that
unfortunately this decline in price has happened very quickly. As
soon as it started to happen I met with my provincial
counterparts. We are working with the industry and the safety
nets advisory committee and I am talking to my cabinet colleagues
so we can work together as we have in the past with the provinces
and the industry to put in place an additional support system
that will help farmers in this type of disaster.
[Translation]
Ms. Hélène Alarie (Louis-Hébert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the situation
at the moment in agriculture is very difficult.
Grain and meat prices, especially hog prices, are dropping. The
minister of agriculture is getting ready to announce an aid
program for farmers.
Could we have the minister's assurance that he will adapt his
program to programs already existing in Quebec so that farmers
and producers there may also receive aid and enjoy their fair
share?
[English]
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this government will do as it has done in
the past and will continue to do in the future. When and if a
program is put in place it will be equitable to all farmers in
Canada. It will be available to them if they need to call on it
no matter what province they live in.
Mr. Charles Hubbard (Miramichi, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am
delighted to see all parties in the House recognize the farm
crisis, the droughts we had in Atlantic Canada and Quebec, the
low prices of grains, the tremendous problem in the hog industry,
the need for our provinces and the federal government to
co-operate. Can the minister of agriculture relate to the House
how he plans to co-operate with our provincial governments to
alleviate this farm crisis?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the support of the member for Miramichi
and my colleagues on this side of the House and their bringing
the views of this unfortunate situation before my cabinet
colleagues have been very helpful. We will work to do what we
can as quickly as possible in order to alleviate the disaster
situation on too many farms.
* * *
HEALTH
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, this is the
anniversary of the Krever report on tainted blood. Judge Krever
suggested we compensate every single victim. A year later not
one single victim has been compensated by this government. Twelve
hundred victims died during the course of this year. Is there
anybody across the way who will stand up and say they do not have
a twinge of conscience over the abandonment of those individuals?
Somebody stand up.
Ms. Elinor Caplan (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, one year ago the Government of
Canada received from Judge Krever 17 recommendations aimed
directly at the federal government. I want all members of the
House to know that all 17 have been acted on. We immediately
established the national Blood Safety Council. We have two new
blood agencies, Héma-Québec and the Canadian Blood Services. We
have injected $125 million to enhance Health Canada's blood
regulations—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Macleod.
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I guess the
parliamentary secretary on her first question in the House could
be excused for that nonsense—
The Speaker: I ask the hon. member to be very judicious
in his choice of words and I ask him to please go directly to his
question.
Mr. Grant Hill: Mr. Speaker, the first recommendation was
to compensate all the victims. If the parliamentary secretary
can stand up and say she is proud of the record, I am not.
1450
Ms. Elinor Caplan (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this issue is much too serious for
crass partisan politics. He knows full well this government has
put more than $1.3 billion in this issue and $800 million to
settle class action lawsuits. We believe that people need care.
We put $300 million and offered to do our share with the
provinces to make sure that over the course of their lives,
people who have been infected with hepatitis C will get the care
they need.
* * *
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Dick Proctor (Palliser, NDP): Mr. Speaker, media
reports indicate that the government caucus and the minister of
agriculture finally accept the severity of the situation
affecting many Canadian farmers facing the worst crisis since the
dirty thirties. But the same report suggests all cabinet
ministers may not yet be on side.
My question therefore is for the Minister of Finance. Does the
minister accept the tragic reality facing tens of thousands of
Canadian farm families and, if so, will he commit today to both a
short term disaster relief program and longer term protection for
our beleaguered farm families?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I met with my cabinet colleagues as
recently as over breakfast this morning and lunch today. I can
give the assurance to the hon. member that my cabinet colleagues
fully understand the severity of the situation that too many
Canadian farmers are in at the present time.
Mr. Rick Laliberte (Churchill River, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
our farmers all agree that they are victims of international
trade wars that are driving our prices down. This government
abandoned our producers by prematurely cutting federal support.
The finance minister in 1995 announced the elimination of the
Crow benefit. Our farmers lost $320 million per year just in
Saskatchewan.
Will the Minister of Finance support an immediate and long term
national disaster relief program to save our family farms and
keep them competitive worldwide?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, yes there were adjustments made but the
hon. member forgets to tell everybody that Saskatchewan received
nearly $900 million in a one time capital payment.
* * *
APEC INQUIRY
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, today the noose got a little tighter around efforts
to uncover the truth about APEC. The federal court has placed
the RCMP public complaints commission in a freeze mode and the
process has taken so many blows that the only person in Canada
that has confidence in the process is the Prime Minister and
perhaps his deputy. They prefer to hide behind any cover they
can find. First it was the solicitor general, now it is the
mortally wounded APEC panel.
Canadians want the truth. When will they get straight answers
and an independent judicial inquiry?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Canadian people have always been getting straight
answers from the Prime Minister and his colleagues. What is
missing is straight questions from the hon. member and his
colleagues.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Prime Minister
have mastered the art of saying much but saying little, the test
of integrity is performance, not Liberal talking points. The
pathetic broken record responses from the Deputy Prime Minister
do nothing to improve the faith.
If the government wants to get to the bottom of APEC, why is it
sponsoring Bill C-44 which would allow the cabinet to fire the
public complaints commission chair without any correspondence?
Perhaps the President of the Treasury Board can listen to this
question and answer.
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Bill C-44 has cleaned up a mess left by the Conservatives because
of such patronage over their various years.
1455
Out of 3,000 people named by order in council we have cut over
800 and we have saved millions of dollars by doing it.
* * *
FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parkdale—High Park, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs. The
visit to Canada of United Nations High Commissioner for Human
Rights Mary Robinson marks the 50th anniversary of the universal
declaration of human rights.
What discussions did the minister have with Ms. Robinson about
the decision of the British House of Lords on the extradition of
General Pinochet?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member properly points out the
importance of the visit of the UN high commissioner. We had an
opportunity to discuss many subjects.
The decision on the Pinochet case highlights, as the high
commissioner said, the importance of establishing an
international criminal court and she encouraged Canada to
continue its leadership in establishing this important new
institution.
* * *
GOLDEN WEST DOCUMENT SHREDDING
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
minister of public works was responsible for shredding 22,000
boxes of confidential private information on Canadian families.
Instead of shredding that information, it was sold at a profit.
Yesterday the minister told us that everything is okay, after
all he knew about it since July. The privacy commissioner does
not think so. He is launching his own investigation.
Why did the minister keep this scandal of a major breach of
privacy a secret? Just how bad is the news?
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Public Works and
Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, when my department
realized there was a breach of contract we reacted right away. We
cancelled the contract and all the security checks the firm had.
We did not hide anything. It was all in the paper. The member
just realized it now, five months later. If the privacy
commissioner wants to have an investigation we are ready, my
department and I, to co-operate with the privacy commissioner.
* * *
[Translation]
ICE BREAKING POLICY
Mr. Yves Rocheleau (Trois-Rivières, BQ): Mr. Speaker, yesterday
the minister accused the Bloc Quebecois of spreading
misinformation about ice breaking.
Yet, he knows that the Bloc Quebecois has been dealing closely
with the shipping industry on this issue.
My question is for the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans. With
the legitimate protests and unanimous outcry from the industry
and the implementation of the new fee schedule due in less than
a month, will the minister declare a moratorium until his policy
can be amended as required?
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I met yesterday with a group from the industry to
discuss their counterproposals. I am currently examining their
remarks from yesterday and the counterproposal they gave me last
week.
At the moment, there is no good reason to act on the member's
request. We will see. I have to discuss the matter with my
cabinet colleagues as well.
* * *
[English]
LABOUR MARKET TRAINING
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr. Speaker, a
recent report from the Canadian Labour Force Development Board
states that Canada's labour market training system is in chaos
and confusion.
After dumping training on to the provinces and slashing the
spending by $700 million, now there is no planning, no
co-ordination, no national standards and access is getting to be
a joke.
Will the minister of human resources accept that labour market
training is in crisis and will he use the EI windfall surplus to
restore the $700 million gutted from our training programs?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have not dumped the
responsibility on to the provinces, but for a very long time the
provinces wanted a better partnership with the Government of
Canada. We have negotiated this agreement with the provincial
governments, including two NDP governments in British Columbia
and Saskatchewan.
We have invested $800 million more in active measures to help
unemployed Canadians get back to work and that will bring the
total amount to $2.7 billion per year to do precisely that job in
partnership with the provinces.
* * *
ONTARIO
Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Mr. Speaker, the PC
government in Ontario has led the nation in economic growth and
job creation.
Ontario's economy will grow by 4% this year because Ontario knows
and Premier Harris knows that if taxes are cut the jobs will
grow.
1500
When will this government and when will this finance minister
give the same type of economic growth to the rest of Canada by
cutting taxes, as Ontario has done, to ensure that all Canadians
have the economic opportunities that the Government of Ontario
has provided to the people of Ontario?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, first of all, in the last budget, as the hon. member
knows, we cut taxes by $7 billion over three years.
But if what he would like to do is talk about job creation, in
the five years since we have been in office private sector jobs
have grown by 1.4 million.
In the five years under the previous Tory administration jobs
were up by only 180,000. In fact full time jobs under the Tories
were down by 97,000 and in our case they are up by 1.4 million.
In the last five years of the Tory regime the unemployment rate
went up by 3%.
* * *
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
I would like to ask the government House leader what the agenda
is for the remainder of this week. In fact, I would like to know
the remaining agenda, right up to the last day and whether, in
fact, the last day is December 11.
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to respond to the
question put by the hon. opposition House leader.
This afternoon we will continue with Bill C-49, respecting first
nations land management. This will be followed by Bill C-56,
respecting Manitoba settlement rights. Time permitting, we would
then turn to Bill C-35, respecting imports; Bill C-41, the mint
bill; and Bill C-40, respecting extradition.
Tomorrow we will consider Senate amendments to Bill C-52, the
nuclear test ban bill, which will be followed by third reading of
Bill S-16, respecting certain tax treaties.
I do not expect to call business other than those two items
tomorrow.
On Monday we will resume the list that I have just described.
1505
Tuesday shall be an allotted day, with votes on supply at the
end of the afternoon. I understand that there are a number of
other votes as well that have been deferred, or possibly will be
deferred later today and on other days.
On Wednesday of next week we would like to turn to Bill C-43,
the revenue agency bill. If there is time left on Wednesday we
will then turn to Bill C-57, the Nunavut court bill.
Beyond that we will also be entertaining the pre-budget debate
before we adjourn for Christmas. Obviously, to be very precise
for the last remaining days will require a bit of time yet. But
I am grateful to all House leaders, indeed all parties, for their
co-operation in terms of allocating the business of the House for
the remaining days until we adjourn for the Christmas break.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
FIRST NATIONS LAND MANAGEMENT ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-49, an
act providing for the ratification and the bringing into effect
of the framework agreement on first nation land management, be
read the second time and referred to a committee; and of the
motion that the question be now put.
Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris—Moose Mountain, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, in my remaining few minutes I would like to clear up any
difficulties that some members opposite may have.
Let us set the record straight. Let us make absolutely sure
that we are not disputing the right of Indians to honour their
land treaties. That is not the issue. The issue that is before
us today is how we are going to bring about accountability with
this bill. How are we going to change the conditions which the
hon. member for Wild Rose mentioned?
There are some questions that hang very heavily on the shoulders
of elected officials on the government side of the House. Why
are we denying thousands of people the right which we enjoy of
self-determination in government? Why do we continue to do that?
Why are we prepared to go ahead with massive land claims when the
people at the grassroots want accountability? The government is
not helping them to attain that.
Those areas which have accountability, to a large degree, are
areas in which we do not see what the member for Wild Rose saw.
The more transparency, the more accountability, the better it is
for everybody. We have no right in this House to deny the term
and the meaning in totality of self-government. As we go into a
new century we should not be considering legislation that puts
the cart before the horse.
To deny shows that this government is not really looking at
reality. Government members can talk all they like about
accountability and partnership, but until we put into place the
machinery that brings about accountability, the machinery that
brings about local grassroots governments, then we are going to
continue with the mess that we have in many areas across Canada.
What I ask of this government is to not keep putting forth bills
with no end to them, but to look at the reality of what is
happening in Canada. Let us look at what we have to do to cure
the biggest social issue facing Canada today.
The government can hide from it. Obviously it does not want to
take responsibility.
Sooner or later the responsibility of what goes on from coast to
coast without self-government and without transparency will rest
on the shoulders of government.
1510
Why should we be promoting more avenues and more room for land
claims which we agree with, but which we do not agree with if
they do not contain accountability? This government is quite
prepared to do that, but we are not.
Ms. Jean Augustine (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-49, the first nation
land management act.
The impetus to create this legislation came from the first
nations which developed a workable land management system to
enable them to manage and control their lands and resources. The
new land management regime outlined in this legislation is a
government-to-government agreement that ends the authority and
discretion of the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development to manage these lands under the Indian Act.
This new regime goes to the very heart of our efforts to try to
make life better for aboriginal people across Canada. It places
control over the daily management of lands back into the hands of
several first nations. With this control they will have the
tools to guide their own destiny and to support strong, healthy
communities fueled by economic development and supported by a
solid infrastructure of institutions and services.
This new regime is a striking example of the kind of productive
arrangement envisioned in the paper “Gathering
Strength—Canada's Aboriginal Action Plan”.
When this government launched that paper in January, we
committed ourselves to renewing our partnerships with aboriginal
people and to finding new approaches to bring about real,
practical improvements in the lives of aboriginal people. This
legislation leads the way in our efforts to give first nations
greater autonomy and to strengthen their capacity and expertise.
Hon. members may recognize much of this legislation. It came
before us in December of 1996 as Bill C-75. It received second
reading and then died when the House was dissolved.
Those familiar with the legislation will know that it has a
history that goes back even further. The bill before us, as with
the legislation of the last parliament, seeks to ratify a
framework agreement signed by these first nations in British
Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario and New
Brunswick. This legislation would apply to 14 first nations.
The framework agreement provides authority for these 14
signatories to govern their lands and resources under their own
laws. The first nations must first develop a land code that will
set out their basic rules and procedures to govern lands and
interest in land and resources after the land provisions of the
Indian Act cease to apply to these communities.
The land codes must be consistent with the framework agreement,
which can only be amended by the parties to it. The lands
affected will be known as first nation lands and will continue to
be reserve lands for the purposes of other applicable federal
legislation. For example, the Indian Oil and Gas Act will not be
affected by this agreement.
Each first nation will also enter into an individual agreement
with Canada to determine a level of operational funding for land
management and to set out the specifics of transition from the
current to the new regime.
1515
My colleagues across the way must understand that this framework
agreement requires each first nation's land code to set out a
whole series of requirements: the requirements for
accountability on management of lands and money to first nation
members; the procedures for making and publishing first nation
laws; the conflict of interest rules for land management; a forum
for the resolution of disputes; general rules and procedures for
granting or expropriating interests in first nations lands; the
general authorities and procedures for delegating administrative
authorities; and the procedure for amending its land code or
approving an exchange in lands.
It seems from the discussion across the way that these
requirements are not well understood.
I would also point out that these provisions must be voted on by
the community as part of their opting in procedure. These
measures ensure the participation of the community at the outset
and seek its approval for the process. In this way the first
nations can be assured that their memberships are fully aware and
fully apprised of all aspects of the opting in process and
subsequent administration of the lands and moneys. In other
words, this is an accountability process built to very high
standards.
Both the land code and the individual agreements require
community approval. All members of the first nations who are 18
years or older, whether resident or off reserve, would be
eligible to vote in the community approval process. At least 25%
of eligible voters would have to approve those land codes and
individual agreements for them to be valid.
This process of ratification is further evidence that the
framework agreement will help build and strengthen aboriginal
governance. It will support strong communities, strong people
and strong economies. I would remind the House that these are
the major objectives in the paper “Gathering Strength—Canada's
Aboriginal Action Plan”. There is just so much that one can say
in speaking to this agreement.
It is important to note that the bill provides for each first
nation and the minister to appoint a verifier to confirm whether
the proposed land code and community approval process were
consistent with the terms of the bill and the agreement. The
verifier would also determine whether the land code and
individual agreement had been approved by the confirmed process.
The legislation before us enacts a framework agreement that will
benefit everyone. The signatories will benefit from greater
control over their lands and resources. Neighbouring
municipalities and affected provinces will benefit from economic
development spinoffs. The federal government will benefit from
no longer having to administer certain specific sections of the
Indian Act. It can reduce its involvement in the day to day
management decisions and activities of those first nations.
Other first nations will benefit from being able to study the
effects on these 14 signatories and from using the framework
agreement as a model for future self-government agreements.
Bill C-49 is a good piece of legislation. I urge all my
colleagues to support this legislation.
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, I
appreciate the member's comments that Bill C-49 is a good piece
of legislation. I would agree with her that it is a good piece
of legislation.
I would like to address a couple of the fallacies in this
legislation and a couple of what I believe are mistakes in some
of the statements made by members of this House.
Certainly there are some difficult issues in this legislation
but it is a very positive piece of legislation and one that will
give control of land management to first nations, something that
they do not have now.
I would like to correct the member for Souris—Moose Mountain
who stated that there was no accountability in this bill. This
bill is all about accountability.
Perhaps there are parts of the bill the member did not read. I
will explain the accountability sections in this bill for members
of the House.
1520
Historically the Indian Act has given DIAND virtually all
decision making authority regarding the use and disposition of
reserve lands and resources. The minister has limited
accountability to the members of the first nations for management
of reserves and has limited accountability to the members of
first nations for the management of land transactions, resources,
environment and revenue.
As the law exists now, there is no accountability at all. The
14 first nations that have signed this agreement have made
accountability to their members one of the main principles of the
framework agreement.
Bill C-49 does not deal with elections or other subjects such as
governance which remain under the Indian Act. There are a couple
of important points that should be made about accountability in
this bill.
The framework agreement ensures that a first nations council
will account to both on reserve and off reserve members. First
nations members both on reserve and off reserve must approve the
decision to opt out of ministerial administration of reserves,
the content of the land code and any amendments to the land code
and the individual transfer agreement with Canada. A first
nations council must manage its lands for the use and benefit of
the first nation. That sounds like accountability to me.
A land code must contain provisions to ensure accountability and
transparency of decisions for lands and related revenues. A land
code must contain provisions for first nations law-making
procedures and the publication of first nations laws. All land
codes are public documents available to the members of first
nations and the general public. The land code must identify a
local dispute resolution mechanism for land management decisions.
This bill is about accountability and it is strictly about
accountability. I think it is time that some of those who are in
opposition to this bill sat down and read the bill. Let me give a
few more examples of accountability.
Eligible voting members can introduce first nation land laws for
consideration. Proposed land laws must be publicly posted and
distributed to members before being voted on by council. First
nation land laws must be published. The public has access to
those laws at the first nation office during business hours.
Conflict of interest rules require that persons in conflict may
not participate in making decisions on the matter.
Eligible voting members must approve certain types of leases and
licences of first nation land. Council must adopt a budget,
explain it to its meeting of members and make the budget
available for inspection by any members who request it.
Expenditure and contract controls, books of accounts and records
must be kept in accordance with generally accepted accounting
principles. Any adult member can receive a copy of these
financial statements. The auditor has complete access to the
financial records. It is an offence to restrict access to the
financial records.
Community approval for a ratification vote is required before
certain laws or land transactions can be made. At the annual
meeting, first nation members are required to discuss land
matters and to receive the auditor's report.
That is about accountability. That is what the bill brings to
the nation. That is what the bill brings to the 14 first nations
that have signed the framework agreement.
It is important to understand that those 14 First Nations
stretch from coast to coast in Canada. There are five from
British Columbia: Westbank; Lheit Lit'en; Musqueam; N'Quatqua;
and Squamish. There is one from Alberta, Siksika. There are two
from Saskatchewan, Muskoday and Cowessess. The one from Manitoba
is the Opaskwayak Cree. From Ontario there are four: the
Chippewas of Georgina Island; the Mississaugas of Scugog Island;
the Chippewas of Mnjikaning; and Nipissing. There is also Saint
Mary's in New Brunswick.
Are other first nations interested in joining this initiative?
Yes, 40 or 50 first nations are interested in joining this
framework accord for land management. A number in my own
province of Nova Scotia are interested in joining.
1525
There is absolutely nothing in this agreement that changes the
Constitution. There is nothing that changes the charter of
rights. This does not deal with the difficult issues before us
in the House of Commons. This deals with a very simple idea that
all of us should be very familiar with and that is control of
lands that one owns.
For first nations to try to take their place in Canadian
society, to share in the economic opportunities of this country,
it is criminal that the Indian Act discriminates in the way it
does. The minister of the crown is responsible to tell a first
nations individual living on reserve whether or not they can cut
firewood on that reserve, whether or not they can cut timber on
that reserve, whether or not they can have a gravel pit on that
reserve, whether or not they have an opportunity for mining
interests on that reserve.
Nor does this bill exclude any other bills that have already
gone through parliament. The Indian Oil and Gas Act still
pertains. This does not change legislation. This simply gives an
opportunity for us in the Parliament of Canada to allow first
nations to have economic opportunities of their own upon reserve
in Canada.
It bothers me very much when I listen to the opposition's
discussion of this bill. I have looked at this bill. I have
read it backward and forward and frontward and sideways and I
really cannot see the problem with it.
There was some discussion of first nations women and how they
would be accepted under the aegis of this bill. The fact remains
that the bill deals with the breakdown of marriage. It deals
with the separation of husband and wife. It deals with children
after the breakdown of marriage.
The bill deals with all the pertinent issues that are before the
first nations with the ownership of land upon reserve. It is
incumbent upon us as parliamentarians to support positive
legislation. Certainly this is a piece of positive legislation.
There are many things that are difficult for us as members of
parliament to do. I addressed them before but I think it is
important to point them out again, and that is what this piece of
legislation does not do. It does not change the Constitution of
Canada. It does not change the laws that govern the equality of
rights under the charter of rights. This bill allows first
nations economic opportunity and control of their own land. It
is a good bill. I support it and I would ask other members of
the House to support it.
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I listened
with real intent and interest to my colleague who just spoke. He
referred to clauses of Bill C-49 with regard to accountability
which is very reassuring.
However, we all know that the requirements for accountability in
every facet of expenditures of money in the interests of Indian
people have always been there. Those requirements for
accountability have always been there yet we hear from the
grassroots people, Indian people, some of whom I have spoken to
this afternoon.
When I ask them about Indian self-government and what they think
about it, they tell me they are concerned about it. I ask why
they would be concerned about. They tell me very clearly that
they are concerned about granting their leaders greater powers
and authorities over them. When I ask what the problem is now,
they go on and on at length to explain the problems. My colleague
from Wild Rose and my colleague from Skeena have given examples
of the problems the grassroots people have.
I do not think there is anyone in Canada who would not be
willing to continue the direction of resources into the
aboriginal community for the benefit of their standard of living,
education and so on. But if it is not reaching them, as the word
is coming to us over and over again from all points on the
compass, then we have to look at the whole area of
accountability.
1530
Bill C-49 will pass, but it is the duty and the responsibility
of members in opposition to warn about the defects of the bill as
we see them. The whole area of accountability is of very serious
concern to us and to all members who have talked to Indian people
at the grassroots level.
The unfortunate problem is that there are aboriginal people at
the grassroots who cannot take their concerns to their chief and
council for whatever reason. They cannot take their concerns to
the minister because the minister will be criticized and attacked
by the chief and council if she begins to meet with the
grassroots. She will be accused of going around the local
elected representatives. The minister is caught in a bind in
this regard.
I do not know what the answer is other than to insist on
accountability for 25% of those bands that are not acting
responsibly even though there are guidelines for accountability
in terms of the expenditure of money for the welfare of Indian
children and in terms of schooling, education, health care and
their standard of living. There is a lack of accountability for
the expenditure of funds at the band level. There is a concern.
We are putting our warning voice on record in this regard. No
one in the House does not want to see aboriginal self-government.
However it has not been defined yet. Why has the government not
defined it? Why do we not have a model upon which to base it and
allow the aboriginal people to take greater charge over their own
lives and their own affairs? It must be done on the basis of
accountability to their own grassroots people.
I do not know what the answers are to many of the problems I
have heard about. They are not unlike those of the larger
Canadian society. We as the Reform Party are asking for populist
principles which allow for the people to hold their elected
representatives more accountable for the manner in which they run
the affairs of the country, including plunging us into debt and
having many of the children living in poverty after taxing us at
the highest rate of the G-7 countries, after borrowing and
spending $585 billion over the last 25 or 30 years. Still one
child in every five is reported to be living in poverty.
There must be greater accountability in this place. We want
more free votes in the House. We want the right of the people to
recall us if we do not honestly and faithfully represent their
views and concerns. That is the kind of mechanism within any
level of government which the people must have. Perhaps it is
the answer for aboriginal people and those answers must come from
them.
The degree of accountability in the bill looks good. There are
policies and regulations demanding and calling for accountability
in the way moneys are expended, yet we still hear the cry from
the grassroots. Until that cry is listened to and the problems
are addressed, the bill may be simply adding to the problems of
the grassroots, not to the problems of the Reform, Bloc, NDP, PC
or the Liberal members of the House. It may be adding to the
problems we hear coming from the grassroots in that it will grant
greater power and authority over local government. That is where
there seems to be a lack of the accountability these people are
requesting.
Our duty is to place our concerns on record. We hope everything
works out well, as everyone does, but it has not so far. We are
saying that the bill is placing a greater degree of power and
authority in the hands of the very same people the grassroots are
concerned and complaining about.
I will give an example. Laura Deedza lives in my community but
she is from one of the northern Alberta reserves. She has been
trying to get financial statements from her band. For months she
has had nothing but a fight on her hands as she has been trying
to get even parts of those financial statements for the present
year and for years past.
She has nowhere to go except to the minister. She is continually
complaining to my office that she meets a brick wall at that
level. The procedures for access to these kinds of documents are
clearly outlined in the bill. They are outlined as well for
financial statements to which every band member is supposed to
have access. Laura is just one of many. She is continually
asking us for help.
1535
The meeting which will allow for grassroots people to express
their concerns further to members of parliament on Saturday in
Edmonton ought to be attended by every concerned member of
parliament to hear what they have to say and to bring that
message back to the House. I wish members of the government
would attend that meeting as well so that they can hear directly
from the grassroots people and take their concerns back to the
minister and back to cabinet.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is the House ready
for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The question is on
the motion that the question be now put. Is it the pleasure of
the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour
of motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the
yeas have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Call in the members.
And the bells having rung:
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, there have been discussions
with representatives of all parties and I believe you would find
consent to defer the recorded division requested on the motion of
the Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Indian Affairs and
Northern Development concerning second reading of Bill C-49 to
the expiry of Government Orders on Tuesday, December 1, 1998.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
* * *
MANITOBA CLAIM SETTLEMENTS IMPLEMENTATION ACT
The House resumed from November 16 consideration of the motion
that Bill C-56, an act respecting an agreement with the Norway
House Cree Nation for the settlement of matters arising from the
flooding of land, and respecting the establishment of certain
reserves in the province of Manitoba, be read the second time and
referred to a committee.
Ms. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
debate on the bill up to this point has been very interesting.
Since the Norway House Cree Nation is part of my riding, I would
like to add my own comments.
1540
The bill represents the end result of many years of negotiations
among the Norway House Cree Nation, the province of Manitoba and
the Government of Canada. Any legislation introduced in the
House of Commons to implement agreements negotiated with other
parties, particularly when these negotiations take place for a
number of years, is legislation that includes a great deal of
delegated trust.
In this specific case since the duly elected government of the
Norway House Cree Nation signed the agreement and the people of
Norway House ratified it in a referendum, we must trust that this
agreement is satisfactory to the people of Norway House. This
does not mean we believe there to be unanimous support for the
agreement. Since the people of Norway House voted in favour of
this agreement, it must be assumed that it reflects the opinion
of the majority.
During this debate some members of the House have questioned
whether this agreement reflects the will of the people of Norway
House. Let us be clear about what these members are implying. By
questioning the legitimacy of the referendum results, they must
be alleging that some sort of electoral fraud took place. This is
not the type of allegation that should be made lightly.
At a time when first nations are finally able to regain control
of their affairs, the department of Indian affairs and ultimately
the Government of Canada must ensure that the democratic rights
of every first nation member are not ignored. Failure to do so
is setting their governments up for failure.
Any member of parliament who believes as I do that first nations
have a legitimate right to self-determination knows that it is
not parliament's place to tell first nations people what to do.
Throughout the history of Canada's relationship with the first
nations this kind of patronizing attitude has lead only to
tragedy.
To avoid repeating the errors of the past first nations must be
free to make their own decisions and determine their own path.
Thus, in the absence of unassailable proof that the referendum
was fraudulent, I cannot in good conscience oppose what I must
conclude is the desire of the majority of the people of Norway
House and their democratically elected band government.
To help put this matter in context let us compare the Norway
House Cree Nation with the nearby Cross Lake First Nation. Both
these first nations were among the five affected by the flooding
in the 1970s and both signed the northern flood agreement. Each
has a democratically elected government and as is its prerogative
the government of Cross Lake is following a different path in its
fight for compensation.
Unlike Norway House, Cross Lake has not reached an agreement
with the province of Manitoba and the Government of Canada. The
government of Cross Lake has not been satisfied with the
compensation offered by the federal and provincial governments
for the flooding of their land. Thus they have decided to hold
out for the compensation they were promised under the original
northern flood agreement.
What we have is two first nation governments faced with similar
circumstances choosing different paths to confront their
circumstances. Norway House has chosen to make a deal while
Cross Lake has chosen not to do so. Some have said that Norway
House has made the wrong decision, but we as members of
parliament have no right to tell these first nations what to do.
I support their right to self-determination so the people who
must make this decision are the people of those communities.
The referendum result and the fact that they re-elected their
chief and council indicate that the majority of the people of
Norway House support this agreement, and I respect their
decision. Likewise I support the democratically elected
government of Cross Lake's decision to follow a different path.
It is important to note that the position I am taking to support
the self-determination of each first nation reflects the position
of the first nations themselves. At the last annual general
meeting of the Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak, the chief of
Norway House pledged his support for Cross Lake in their struggle
for compensation. Clearly even when they choose different paths
for themselves first nations stand in solidarity and support each
other's self-determination.
I am pleased that the Norway House master implementation
agreement is bringing some resolution to the community. Most if
not all members who have taken part in this debate have never
been to this fine community in my riding.
I am pleased to report to the House that economic development is
moving forward in Norway House. A new mall was opened this week
creating dozens of new jobs in the community. The community has
embarked on many substantial projects including a new day care
centre and a paving project last summer. Virtually every road in
Norway House is now paved. In addition, there are also new
tourism initiatives under way highlighting the community's long
history and spectacular natural beauty.
However, I am upset and deeply disturbed by recent developments
in Cross Lake which indicate that the Government of Canada and
the department of Indian affairs are trying to leverage that
first nation into signing the master implementation agreement
against its will.
1545
The chief of Cross Lake has asked me to tell the House about the
pressure his government and his people are under from the
department of Indian affairs and the Government of Manitoba.
Cross Lake is the only first nation that has yet to sign the
agreement. Like any government in this day and age, the
government of Cross Lake First Nation also carries a debt.
Unlike most other governments Cross Lake needs the department of
Indian affairs to underwrite its debt. Now the department of
Indian affairs is threatening to stop the underwriting of the
band government's loans, meaning the band will go bankrupt unless
it can immediately pay off its debt.
Imagine if Canada's creditors demanded immediate repayment of
our national debt. It would not be reasonable to expect this and
neither is it reasonable to expect this from the Cross Lake First
Nation.
The department of Indian affairs has effectively put a knife to
the throat of the Cross Lake First Nation. If it signs a master
implementation agreement the immediate cash payments will allow
it to pay off its debt and avoid bankruptcy. But the Cross Lake
First Nation has made it clear that it does not want to sign a
new master implementation agreement.
The Progressive Conservative Government of Manitoba has so far
been unwilling to offer fair compensation so Cross Lake has
chosen to continue with the more time consuming process of
pressing for the compensation it was promised under the northern
flood agreement. It must be free to make this choice.
This blackmail by the department of Indian affairs is despicable
and betrays the Liberal government's utter contempt for the
principle of first nations self-determination. I call on the
Liberal government to end its blackmail of the Cross Lake First
Nation immediately.
We can see that the Liberal government has the capacity to be
unethical in its treatment of first nations. However, there is
no unassailable proof it has used these underhanded tactics with
other bands such as Norway House. In the absence of such proof
we must assume the democratic process is legitimate.
I know the members who are opposing the bill have good
intentions and they feel they are supporting what is right for
Norway House. There are members within the Norway House First
Nation.
Support for this agreement is not unanimous in Norway House and
that is the democratic right of those who oppose it but I call on
all members of the House to support the wishes of the majority of
the people of Norway House by supporting the bill.
I also call on members to join me in fighting the terrible
injustice that the government is currently perpetrating against
the Cross Lake First Nation.
Mr. Derrek Konrad (Prince Albert, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
am pleased to speak today on Bill C-56, the Manitoba claim
settlements implementation act. When we look at the bill we see
that it has two parts. The first part relates to the settlement
of matters that arise from flooding of land and the second part
is a means to facilitate the implementation of land claim
settlements in Manitoba through the creation of new reserves or
the addition of land to existing reserves.
I will highlight some difficulties with the second part that
have arisen because of the treaty land entitlement process in
Saskatchewan and that have been brought to my attention by rural
municipalities and by people who are C-31 Indian people. There is
some difficulty with that.
The flooding of course occurred when the Churchill River was
developed for hydro projects and Indians living along the river
lost the land they had lived on. They lived a hunting and
fishing sustenance lifestyle. I have been there because I was
involved in the development of those hydro projects as a land
surveyor and parked out on the Hudson Bay at the mouth of the
Churchill River and met some of the people who probably have been
affected by this legislation.
We are talking about almost 12,000 acres of reserve land and
over half a million acres of bordering non-reserve land in this
project. That needs to be replaced so that the people can
continue to make a life in the north.
There has been some question about the method of arriving at
agreement on the referendum raised by people from Norway House.
They have charged there have been profound irregularities and
vote buying. I call on the government to look into their charges
if they have made them to the minister as well, because we do not
want any question left when this is over that the right thing had
not been done for the people at the time it was done.
1550
We believe that the chief electoral officer should have
authority over Indian governments in elections to ensure that
they are fair and lawful so that there could be no question as to
whether an election or a referendum had been held legally in all
respects.
We do not have any proof of the allegations but they are serious
allegations that need to be looked into.
The treaty land entitlement history is that in the western
provinces when the treaties were signed, the treaty commissioners
had searched the countryside for Indians at that time to
determine their status, to set aside land for them and get their
names. However, when the surveys were first done it was found
that there was a shortfall in the number of acres that had been
promised to each individual Indian. So at a specific point in
time funds were set aside in Saskatchewan for bands to purchase
land for descendants of those people for whom lands were not set
aside at the time of the purchase. The amount they should have
got at the first survey was 128 acres per person, which works out
to 640 acres or one square mile for a family of five, more than
sufficient for a family to earn a living.
Some of the current problems with the treaty land entitlement
process that have come to my attention by way of Indians
themselves who have brought this up are that the Indian register
was used to obtain funds to purchase land at this point because
there is not enough crown land left in Saskatchewan to transfer
to Indian bands.
The band list, on the other hand, has been used to deny access
to benefits. The band has control over membership of the list
and has a safe list which is used to guard it from unwanted
members gaining access to the band and to the benefits that flow
to it.
That creates real difficulties for people who have a right to
the benefits the band has obtained in their name. We need to
ensure those band lists are not closed when benefits have been
given to the band using their names.
The Reform Party has always felt that private ownership often
should be made available for people who have a lifestyle
different from the bands themselves. Imagine someone growing up
in a major city having to move to a band in northern
Saskatchewan, to a reserve, to enjoy the benefits that should be
theirs as a result of the treaty land entitlement process. These
people do not want to leave behind the schools, friends,
relations, hospital services and all the services that are
available in an urban community. They have not grown up on a
reserve and they do not see themselves as a part of that process.
They need a way to take advantage of the benefits set aside for
them.
I would like to point out another difficulty that arises from
the treaty land entitlement process. In Saskatchewan bands are
free to buy from any willing seller at a price agreeable to both
of them. The band then applies to have the land designated
reserve status. Immediately the rural municipality has a reduced
capability to collect taxes. I know there is an amount set aside
which is supposed to generate enough interest to provide the
services. However, when we come to the business of building
roads across reserves, we find out that when we build a road up
to a reserve or if we have driven these roads that have been
built up to reserves, they are a completely different lower
quality from across the reserve because it is not in the band's
interest to spend its money on a road which is possibly marginal
to its operation. This is happening throughout Saskatchewan.
1555
Haul roads are being built across the province. They are
designated as haul roads and known as super grids. They are
necessary because railroads are being pulled up and rural
elevators are being shut down. Consequently haul roads are
assuming greater importance to rural municipalities.
When a budget is set up for a reserve an amount is set aside for
road construction but there is no requirement for the band to
spend the money as shown on the budget which is simply a document
that states how the money has been given to the band on the basis
of so many dollars. For example, when a rural municipality
builds a road it identifies haul roads in agreement with other
rural municipalities and the provincial government and funds are
set aside for their construction. It receives 73% from the
province. The rural municipality taxes its ratepayers to come
up with the other 27%.
A rural municipality in Saskatchewan recently constructed a new
haul road which crossed three miles of reserve land. The band
did not participate in funding for construction which made the
costs as follows. The federal government contributed 67%, the
rural municipality contributed 33% and because the road was on
the reserve, the province contributed nothing. The band also
contributed nothing. This meant the rural municipality's portion
rose from 27% of the total cost to 33% which represents an actual
increase in taxes needed to build the road of 22%. That is a very
large tax increase.
With the proliferation of reserves due to the treaty land
entitlement process, bands are buying land all over rural
municipalities as they have the perfect right to do but the
reserves begin to have a checkerboard effect throughout the rural
municipalities. Therefore when we are building roads we are
continually coming across these sections with no tax base to
support the construction of roads, never mind the maintenance of
roads which includes gravelling, grading, snow clearing, weed
control and that type of thing which falls under the road
allowance.
Rural municipalities have asked me to tell the government about
the situation they are facing. They are looking for the
government to ensure that the money given to bands for road
construction be used for road construction and not for other
purposes as important and as laudable as they may be.
The band in question has agreed to supply gravel over the next
few years until the value is arrived at, and that is a fairly
enlightened viewpoint, but no band is required to do that. Bands
have the ability to make the rules for road construction when the
rural municipalities are bound more by the province and more by
their own needs of their ratepayers, the farmers who farm the
land, and must get to a delivery point or a market on the other
side of a reserve. It is a very large problem that needs to be
addressed and arises from the treaty land entitlement process. I
trust the Manitoba government will take up the farmers' position
on this so rural municipalities will not have to bear
increasingly high costs of road construction as the checkerboard
effect of small Indian reserves throughout the rural
municipalities takes effect.
We agree with the intent of the legislation that land taken for
road construction purposes should be replaced. The treaty land
entitlement process is an historic process that is accepted
policy in Canada. As such there is no point in fighting it.
There definitely needs to be some review of the method by which
the tax income for a rural municipality is replaced. Otherwise
they will be taxed out of existence.
1600
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I want
to ask my hon. colleague, who made a very good analysis of the
problem, if he could expand just a bit on this checkerboard of
land that is purchased by the Indian bands in various parts of
the municipality.
It is not automatic that these lands become part of a reserve
because it seems to me that the Indian band may purchase these
lands and those lands are then held in fee simple. If they are
held in fee simple, then the tax base that exists for other land
in that area is precisely the same on the land owned by the
Indian band as would be the case if another person owned that
land.
Is it the contention that what the municipality should be
looking for is some sort of a shift in legislation or some
predictable way in which the decision would be made by the
federal government as to how these fee simple lands that have
been purchased by the Indian bands from individuals will become
part of a reserve?
Mr. Derrek Konrad: Mr. Speaker, bands that purchase lands
under the treaty land entitlement act apply to the provincial
government for reserve status, which takes it out of the tax
system. As I mentioned, there is a set-aside, an amount paid
into a fund which is held in trust, the interest of which is
supposed to pay for services.
However, there is another problem. If the province grants
reserve status to farmland, what happens is that the amount that
is paid is based on the current assessment, which is quite low
for farmland. If they convert it to country residential, let us
say, and it is subdivided into 20 acre parcels, on 160 acres that
would be eight separate parcels. That means that eight families
may end up living there. There would be more bussing costs,
education costs and health related costs. The costs would
escalate and the rural municipality would still be left building
roads for the extra people and making sure that services were
delivered.
The re-zoning is not subject to the rural municipality's
objections. That of course goes to the federal government
because it is now federal crown land. There is a definite
loading of expenses onto this level of government in the rural
areas of Canada without commensurate tax revenues.
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, I was
listening to the answer of the hon. member for Prince Albert to
the question of whether or not these fee simple lands were
taxable and I am not sure what his answer was.
However, the legislation states very clearly that it ensures
that fee simple lands provided to Norway House as part of the
compensation plan do not fall under the Indian Act as special
reserve lands. So they are fee simple lands, plain and simple.
Members can draw whatever other conclusions they may want to from
that, but they are fee simple properties.
Mr. Derrek Konrad: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member
for South Shore. He is right, they do purchase them in fee
simple and they can be held in fee simple, but the fact is that
because it belongs to a band it can apply for reserve status.
Once that happens, then it loses its tax exempt status, as
reserve land obviously does. Fee simple lands held by a
corporation or anything like that are obviously taxable at the
going rate.
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, it is
not my intention to take a long time to debate this bill today.
Part of my problem with the bill is not so much what the bill
contains, but how it contains it.
1605
There is a real danger in approaching legislation in an omnibus
fashion like this. We have two quite different pieces of
legislation in one bill. Perhaps we should not be trying to
hurry this legislation through the House. We have a number of
pieces of good legislation that we are trying to deal with. We
should take the time to examine this bill carefully and
understand all of the pertinent issues.
Bill C-56, the Manitoba claims settlement implementation act,
has two parts, the first part being the Norway House Cree Nation
master implementation agreement to establish reserves.
The Norway House signed the master implementation agreement in
December of 1997. The legislation before us allows the
government to affirm certain provisions of that agreement,
although it is being implemented. What this implementation does
is to ensure that fee simple lands provided to Norway House as
part of the compensation plan do not fall under the Indian Act as
special reserve lands.
It also ensures that money provided as part of the compensation
agreement is administered by a trust for the first nation. This
prevents the money from becoming band money as defined in the
Indian Act, thus it is at the disposal of the first nation to be
used as it decides. I guess the wording of that would be Indian
money as declared under the Indian Act. Otherwise they would
have to continue with the time consuming and onerous
administrative requirements of the Indian Act. Instead, this
improves their opportunity for self-reliance and is a step toward
self-government.
The Northern Flood Agreement sets out a means of providing
compensation to the first nations affected by the flooding of
their traditional lands. The agreement was so poorly
constructed, however, that the implementation never occurred.
This legislation attempts to bring some form of closure to many
of the elements of that agreement.
The second part of the legislation improves the process of
establishing reserves. The process could be faster and more
efficient with the minister rather than the governor in council
approving reserves.
First nations also have the opportunity to improve their
economic developments with this legislation, since it allows them
to have third parties continue or begin developments while the
process is ongoing to establish a reserve. This has been a
hindrance to both economic opportunities for first nations and
the parties trying to develop interest on reserve lands.
With a certain willingness to see this piece of legislation
pursue the course of parliament and get to committee before
Christmas, I have no problem allowing this legislation to
continue. I am not going to continue the debate at great length
today. However, I will say again that there is a danger in this
type of legislation which deals with more than one issue.
Actually, we are dealing with three issues. There are certainly
two big issues. There is a certain danger in that. I caution
parliament that if we are going to continue to do this, in the
long run we will end up slowing the process because we do not
have time to study each separate issue in its entirety.
For example, the Northern Flood Agreement consists of 155 pages.
That is just one part of this bill. I realize that all
legislation is complicated and can be fairly onerous, but this
legislation would be much better suited in two bills.
Mr. Mike Scott (Skeena, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I would like
to say that I have had many conversations with members of the
Norway House band over the last year and a half. It is important
for members to understand and agree that before parliament
ratifies and passes this kind of legislation we understand where
the members of the band are coming from and whether there is
consensus. There should be at least general consensus on the
part of the people who are most affected by this bill that it is
something they can support.
I want to talk a bit about the referendum results. I believe
this is critical to this issue.
1610
The Norway House Indian band held a referendum to determine
whether or not they wanted to proceed with the agreement that
this bill represents. I began getting calls to my office a
little more than a year ago from band members who were making
serious allegations over irregularities and improprieties
surrounding the vote.
The first allegation made was that the initial referendum
failed. The Norway House band actually held a vote and the band
council, I think in partnership with the department of Indian
affairs, decided to hold a second vote on exactly the same
agreement. Nothing had changed.
The second allegation that was made was that the second vote was
conducted, but not before a liberal amount of money was used to
buy votes. I do not know if that is true, but that was what I
was told.
Mr. David Iftody: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I would caution the member in the debate on this bill in
his use of language about buying votes. These are serious
allegations and I would caution the member.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I think in this
particular instance the hon. member for Skeena was very aware of
the nature of what he was saying and, as a matter of fact, made
the statement that in fact these were assertions made to him and
in his case he has the responsibility to follow up.
Therefore, I do not believe this to be a point of order.
Mr. Mike Scott: Mr. Speaker, I am very aware of the
seriousness of the allegations. Let me point out to the House
and to the hon. member opposite who raised these concerns that I
certainly did not start phoning Norway House asking for opinions.
These people contacted me. They were making these allegations
and they asked me to look into them on their behalf. They have
asked me and other members of the Reform Party to go to bat for
them, as it were, to try to get to the bottom of this because
they are making some very serious allegations. They made
allegations that people were actually paid money to change their
position with respect to supporting this agreement. Since I was
not there I really do not know.
I would like to ask the government if this referendum was
overseen by Elections Canada. Was there a disengaged third
party, as we have in all elections in this country? Every
federal election in which I have run has Elections Canada, a
disengaged third party that oversees the election so that it can
fairly determine at the end of the night the veracity of the
results. Without that, how can anyone ever say that they had a
referendum and it passed or it failed? No one can do that.
Canadians, I submit, would never accept that.
I think the people on these reserves are absolutely beside
themselves. They are asking why there is one set of rules and
regulations for Canadians that ensures fairness and on their
reserves people can do whatever the hell they want and nobody
cares.
I find it passing strange that the Liberal Party is trying to
represent itself as the voice of aboriginal people when there are
very serious allegations that it does not want to deal with. We
did not have this fairness. We did not have an unbiased third
party, Elections Canada or elections Manitoba or some responsible
party, to oversee this referendum. That did not happen.
Was there a complete and proper enumeration done of all of the
voters? Do we know that? Where is the evidence to support that?
I have asked for that, but I do not have it.
1615
We have to have assurance and the people in that community have
to have assurance that this was a fair representation of
community support. I submit right now that we do not have it.
I want to use another example. It is more recent and it is in
my riding. The same principle is involved. I do not mean to
digress. It is very important that we understand the issue. The
principle here is whether or not these are fair and honest
referendums that actually represent the consensus or the majority
view of the people to be affected by these agreements.
I want to talk about the Nisga'a agreement for just a minute. We
were told approximately 14 days ago that the Nisga'a people in
northern B.C. had a referendum and that they ratified their
treaty. This is the first stage. It has to be ratified by the
B.C. government now and then it is going to be ratified by the
legislature here. Apparently without any free votes, the Prime
Minister is going to ram it down parliament's throat like he does
everything else, but I digress again.
The Nisga'a people voted for two days. The referendum started
on Friday and finished on Saturday night. I live in Terrace
which is just south of the Nass valley where the Nisga'a treaty
is going to come into effect. I waited on Saturday night with
bated breath for the referendum results. I did not get them
Saturday night. I waited all day Sunday and I did not get them
Sunday. I started waiting into Monday. Monday morning there was
an announcement on the radio saying that there should be some
results that afternoon.
On election night Elections Canada counts approximately four
million or five million votes, or maybe it is six million votes,
anyway it is several million votes and we get the results within
an hour and a half. In two hours we know who the next government
will be. We know on an individual basis whether we were elected
or re-elected as parliamentarians.
In a referendum where just slightly more than 2,000 cast a vote,
it took two days to get the preliminary results. They were not
final results, preliminary results.
This is what happened. On Monday afternoon we were told that the
Nisga'a agreement had been ratified by 70% of the Nisga'a people.
It hit the headlines and was carried right across Canada on CBC,
CTV, et cetera. The next day we were told no, that was not an
accurate figure, it was really 51%. I submit there is quite a
difference between 70% and 51%. Again three or four days after
that we were told that no, the final tally was actually 61%. That
is supposed to be the final number.
We have had three different results on one referendum involving
2,000 people. It is a little difficult to accept the veracity of
those results.
I was concerned about this matter. I started getting calls from
some Nisga'a people who were not in support of the treaty and who
felt that this referendum had some irregularities to it.
I phoned the department of Indian affairs in Vancouver and asked
who oversaw the election. They told me that the Nisga'a tribal
council, the very people who had negotiated the agreement, were
actually in charge of the referendum. If anybody across the way
wants to submit to me that that is a fair process, I would like
them to argue that out in public because I do not think the
Canadian people would buy that for a minute.
I found out that the department actually had only one observer
to cover seven polling stations: four in the Nass valley, one in
Prince Rupert, one in Vancouver and one in Terrace. There was one
observer for all seven polls over a period of two days. No one
can possibly persuade me or the Nisga'a people who are not in
support of this treaty that that was a responsible way to oversee
this referendum and to give assurances that the results are fair
and accurate.
These people further made allegations that financial inducements
were offered. Again these are allegations and I have not seen
the hard proof, but I am told by Nisga'a people who live in the
Nass valley that they have seen it for themselves.
1620
I have also heard allegations that underage people were casting
votes. In one case somebody made an allegation that a deceased
person actually cast a vote. I do not know if that is true. I
am not accusing anybody of anything.
What I will say is that there was not something like Elections
Canada, some disengaged third party that is responsible for
overseeing the vote and doing a proper enumeration, making sure
that people who have not been enumerated and who claim to have
the right to vote are given a fair opportunity to state their
case and cast a ballot with a provision that they would have to
have their credentials checked. I do not have a problem with the
way Elections Canada does it and I do not think Canadians do
either. It could be done the same way in the Nass valley for the
Nisga'a people or with the Norway House band.
I find it difficult to understand how the Nisga'a government can
say that 61% of its people supported this treaty in a referendum
when slightly more than 2,000 people voted and it is a band with
over 5,000 members. I did not get top marks in math at school but
my math is a little better than that. I do not understand how
the Nisga'a tribal council, or the Liberals for that matter
because they are totally in support of this, could have us
believe that this represents 61% of the Nisga'a people.
Before we can get on with debating the merits of the bill, and I
am not saying there are not some, we have to have a very clear
and complete picture of what the level of support is. I am
concerned most that the people in the department of Indian
affairs are aware of these allegations and may possibly be
turning a blind eye because they have a vested interest in seeing
these agreements supported and that they go through. I would
never suggest that they would be actively involved but they may
be turning a blind eye to irregularities and downplaying
irregularities and just doing what they think is the bare minimum
to get these things passed rather than seeing that the right
thing is done.
The government should show us the irrefutable evidence that this
was a fair, open and honest referendum, free of influence or
collusion and free of inducements so that it can come to the
House and tell us that it was the will of the majority when it
comes to Norway House. I submit there is no way the government
can do that. There is no way the government can come to
parliament, come before the Canadian people, and say that this
was a fair, open and honest referendum and that nothing
disreputable or in any way reprehensible was done or engaged in.
Until the government can do that, we do not have anything to
debate in this House.
I certainly continue to hear from people from Norway House who
are beside themselves. They consider this is being rammed down
their throats, that it was undemocratic, was not a proper process
to follow and that they will have to live it. They will be stuck
with it and their children will be stuck with it. They do not
accept that the referendum was in any way fair.
I challenge the government to lay before us the irrefutable
proof, if it has it and I know it does not, that this was a fair
process, that it was overseen by Elections Canada or some
independent third party, that there were observers, scrutineers,
and that there was no undue influence being exerted at the polls
by anybody and that what we have is a fair reflection of the will
of the people of Norway House. I am told that is not the case.
I cannot say with authority that the allegations are true. What
I can say is that in the absence of a process that guarantees a
fair result, the Liberals across the way are just blowing hot air
if they try to tell parliament and the Canadian people that this
agreement was supported by the band members of Norway House. I
do not think they have any solid evidence to support that at all.
1625
Mr. David Iftody (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Indian Affairs and Northern Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the hon. member is looking for “irrefutable evidence” that
fraud of some sort did not take place. We have heard this talk
all day. We have heard it on many bills, on C-49. The member
again raises Nisga'a. I am confused at this because each one of
the members has said that they support C-56 but spend 10 or 20
minutes of their precious time in the House pouring vinegar and
ashes all over the deal. I want to know whether they support it
or not.
I would like to read something into the record for the member. I
wish that he would do his homework before he speaks to these
kinds of matters suggesting, and I say this respectfully, that
there was some improper tampering.
On November 25, the federal court, trial division dismissed a
motion that was brought forward by some band members. They had a
right to bring these motions forward with respect to the second
vote that took place on the Norway House agreement. On this
basis the court found “that nothing improper or illegal had
occurred in holding the second referendum for the ratification of
the master”. The federal court has ruled on this matter. It
was open to the people to challenge it, as they did.
If the hon. member had read the facts on this and investigated
that side of the case, he probably would not have risen in the
House and made those kinds of allegations and suggestions. This
has been through a proper court of jurisdiction which found that
nothing occurred that was wrong, improper or illegal.
Mr. Mike Scott: Mr. Speaker, I think if my friend were to
look at what the court actually considered and decided, it was
whether or not it was improper to conduct a second referendum.
That was the issue. The court did not go into any of the
allegations regarding process or perversion of process that were
made by some band members simply because the court did not have
the jurisdiction to do so.
In turning to whether it was legal or proper for a second
referendum to be conducted, I suppose we have seen cases where
governments that disagree with a popular vote in a referendum,
not only in Canada but in other jurisdictions, continue to bring
the same question back to the people until such time as they get
the answer they want. Whether that is illegal is one question.
Whether it is moral is quite another question.
I think if the parliamentary secretary checks his facts, he will
find out that that was the only issue the court was ruling on. It
was not going into the allegations of vote buying or any of the
other concerns that were raised with regard to irregularities in
the referendum process.
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Eastern Shore, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I do apologize in advance if this has already been
discussed.
My colleague from the Reform Party indicates there were many
allegations of concern with the vote process that was going on. I
am wondering if he has received any written confirmation of those
allegations. If he has, has he forwarded those allegations on to
the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development?
Mr. Mike Scott: Mr. Speaker, the answer is yes to both. I
have received a substantial amount of written documentation and
allegations from band members. They have been forwarded to the
Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.
One of the concerns people have in these communities is that
once they stick their heads up, they are liable to get shot at.
They are concerned about that. They have to live in these
communities. These are small communities and oftentimes the
people with whom they are in disagreement in their own
communities could be friends or relatives.
I am sure my colleague would understand that unless band members
give me specific instructions or specific agreement to distribute
the information that I receive, I do not do it in a public
nature. I feel that I have to respect that confidentiality.
1630
We have a file that is about an inch and a half thick on Norway
House. The department of Indian affairs is aware of those
concerns and nothing has been done about them.
Ms. Elinor Caplan (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise to make a comment in
support of the bill that is before us at this time. It is my
hope that the bill will not only pass but will pass unanimously.
We have a long history of trying to resolve our issues and claims
with the aboriginal people. It is one of the blemishes which I
believe the bill will help to eradicate or erase.
We must act in good faith, sit down, negotiate and end up with
an agreement that is supported, although we know negotiated
agreements never have 100% support and approval. I understand
the view of the member opposite that he should be the voice for
those who are the malcontents. I doubt they would ever be
satisfied with anything brought forward in the House.
There is a time for us to set aside partisan attitudes. It is
time for Canada to move forward and treat aboriginal people with
the kind of respect this claim settlement will achieve. We can
then move on proudly to a new era of Canadian history. I hope he
will join the government in this initiative.
Mr. Mike Scott: Mr. Speaker, the wonders of Liberal spin
never cease. Because we stand to voice the concerns of
grassroots people who come to us asking for our help, the member
across the way tries to turn that around and say that somehow we
are against aboriginal people or that we are trying to set
ourselves up in some kind of partisan way.
That is completely irrelevant to the debate we are having. How
can we have informed debate in the House when members opposite
make those kinds of comments? It is beyond me altogether.
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
listened intently to my colleague from Skeena in this debate. He
raised the very important issue of making sure elections are
conducted in a proper and fair manner.
Canadian people have a proud tradition of fair elections in our
democratic process to elect members of parliament, members of
legislatures and members of councils across Canada. We also
travel to other countries throughout the world, countries such as
the newly emerging democracies of eastern Europe and third world
countries, to help them in the democratic process and to try to
guarantee some kind of fair process. At the same time we see
that the Canada elections process is not applied to things like
the Canadian Wheat Board ballots or in areas like the land claims
my colleague has spoken about.
Does it not seem contradictory to be going around the world
telling people how to conduct elections when we are not doing it
fairly at home?
Mr. Mike Scott: Mr. Speaker, that is an excellent
question. We send observers all over the world, most recently to
observe an election in Chiapas, Mexico. In some cases we do not
follow these rules within our own borders. That is reprehensible.
I have been a member of a municipality. I have voted in
municipal elections. I have voted in provincial elections. I
have voted and participated in federal elections. Otherwise I
would not be here. I have never had anybody in any municipal,
provincial or federal election I have been involved in as a
voter, observer or participant ever question the results at the
end of the night.
In the 1993 election an Edmonton riding was decided on as little
as four or five votes. At the end of a judicial recount
everybody went away satisfied that it was an expression of
democracy. Why can most Canadians have that sense of confidence
but as far as members across the way are concerned people living
on reserves do not have to abide by the same standards?
I do not understand. The people who live on those reserves want
to have the same sense of fairness, justice and confidence in
their systems as we have in ours.
1635
Until that happens, when we talk about self-government we are
getting way ahead of the pack. We have to make sure that there
is democratic and fiscal accountability in place first.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is the House ready
for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is it the pleasure of the House to
adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
An hon. member: On division.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Accordingly the bill
stands referred to the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs
and Northern Development.
(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to
a committee)
* * *
SPECIAL IMPORT MEASURES ACT
The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill C-35, an act to
amend the Special Import Measures Act and the Canadian
International Trade Tribunal Act, as reported (without amendment)
from the committee.
SPEAKER'S RULING
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Before getting
into debate I will give the Speaker's ruling with regard to Bill
C-35 and the grouping of the motions.
[Translation]
There are seven motions in amendment standing on the notice
paper for the report stage of Bill C-35, An Act to amend the
Special Import Measures Act and the Canadian International Trade
Tribunal Act.
[English]
Motion No. 1 will be debated and voted on separately.
[Translation]
Motion No. 2 will be debated and voted on separately.
[English]
Motions Nos. 3 to 6 will be grouped for debate and voted on as
follows: (a) Motion No. 3 will be voted on separately; (b) an
affirmative vote on Motion No. 4 obviates the necessity of the
question being put on Motion Nos. 5 and 6; (c) on the other hand,
a negative vote on Motion No. 4 necessitates the question being
put on Motion Nos. 5 and 6; and (d) a vote on Motion No. 5
applies to Motion No. 6.
[Translation]
Motion No. 7 will be debated and voted on separately.
[English]
I will now propose Motion No. 1 to the House.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, I ask for unanimous consent
to propose Motions Nos. 1, 2, 4 to 6, and 7 on behalf of my
colleague from Repentigny.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is it agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
1640
MOTIONS IN AMENDMENT
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (for Mr. Benoit Sauvageau) moved:
That Bill C-35, in Clause 15, be amended by
adding after line 21 on page 10 the following:
“(3.1) In determining whether the complaint is properly
documented, the Deputy Minister shall not take into account
representations received from parties other than the
complainant.”
He said: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak to
Bill C-35, An Act to amend the Special Import Measures Act and
the Canadian International Trade Tribunal Act.
As Bloc Quebecois members have already indicated, we support
this bill.
However, since we have some reservations about certain aspects
of this bill, we are proposing today in this House a number of
motions in amendment to try to improve it.
These motions result from a study of the Special Import Measures
Act done by the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and
International Trade and by the finance committee.
The interventions of Bloc Quebecois members during this study
have already led to a few important changes and substantial
improvements. We suggested, for example, concrete measures
allowing small and medium size producers in Quebec and Canada to
have fair and equitable access to the redress procedures
provided by the current legislation.
We also proposed improvements to the way the Canadian
International Trade Tribunal operates.
The Bloc Quebecois also proposed that the cumulative effect be
taken into consideration by the tribunal when assessing damages.
Furthermore, the amendment of section 76 of the Special Import
Measures Act, requiring the Canadian International Trade
Tribunal to assess the cumulative injurious effects of dumping
or subsidizing in the context of interim reviews was
consolidated as the result of our interventions.
I therefore present to you the motions that we disagree with.
First of all, Motion No. 1, which reads as follows:
That Bill C-35, in clause 15, be amended by adding after line 21
on page 10 the following:
“(3.1) In determining whether the complaint is properly
documented, the Deputy Minister shall not take into account
representations received from parties other than the
complainant”.
A number of witnesses expressed concerns during committee
deliberations.
The Bloc Quebecois shares the concerns of these witnesses, which
include the Canadian Steel Producers Association. It is asking
Revenue Canada to ignore the spontaneous presentations of
parties other than the complainant before the start of an
investigation.
Under this measure, Revenue Canada would take into consideration
only the information of the complainant and would not therefore
be obliged to take unsolicited observations into account. This
measure seems reasonable, since it would apply only in the
period preceding the initiation of an investigation.
Unfortunately, the government does not seem concerned about our
requests or those of an industry of such importance to the
Quebec and Canadian economies as the steel industry. It
therefore rejected this proposal, which does not appear in the
wording of the current bill. This is why we propose Motion
No. 1.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): It is my duty, pursuant to
Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be
raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the
hon. member for Churchill, Aboriginal Affairs.
[English]
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am
happy to participate in the debate on Bill C-35 at report stage.
This has to do with Canada's Special Import Measures Act and the
legislation that would represent. Essentially it is countervail
and dumping duties.
In a perfect world I do not think we would require either of
these, but as we know it is never quite perfect. I think we
simply have to keep this kind of legislation at our disposal if
we need it.
With the advent of the Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement and then
the expansion into NAFTA many integrated industries have
developed. The auto pact was one that developed prior to the
free trade agreement but there are others now.
The steel industry has become quite an integrated industry in
North America. I am thinking of the cattle industry where there
are two way flows of product.
1645
In many of our industries there really is no dumping in the true
sense. There is movement across the Canada-U.S. border every day
with trucks bringing in products. But there are other countries
that dump into Canada. In some cases it is shiploads of steel
and other types of products.
I think we want to keep this legislation at our disposal. There
has been an important development in recognition of a public
interest component in Bill C-35 to be discussed today as well. I
welcome that.
I think we have to look at public interest especially where
Canadian industry sometimes is in a shortage situation for a
period of time when Canadian suppliers cannot supply products and
Canadian importers need to purchase on a short term basis in
order to fill their needs.
In the public interest section as well I think we have to look
at where Canadian producers are inefficient and do not supply
much of the market. Perhaps dumping is not such a big problem
because the Canadian public consumer can benefit a great deal.
In particular I want to deal with Motion No. 1 which we are
discussing today. If a Canadian industry or company decides it is
being harmed by a dumping action, the process starts by filing a
complaint. If it can document and prove its case there is a
process that kicks into gear to determine whether there is injury
as a result of that and whether there need to be duties applied
to stop that dumping process. At the end of that process the
public interest hearings could kick in if there is a requirement
for that.
But the case being made today is that only the complainant
should provide the documentation material and the appropriate
government department would consider whether it is adequate
documentation. No third party should be able to interfere in
that process. The Reform Party agrees with the motion being
proposed by the Bloc to correct this.
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Eastern Shore, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I am speaking on behalf of our critic for international
trade, the member for Winnipeg—Transcona, on Bill C-35, an act
to amend the Special Import Measures Act, SIMA, and the Canadian
Trade Tribunal Act, CTTA. Unfortunately my colleague is ill but
he has asked me to speak on his behalf and I am quite honoured
and proud to do that.
With reference to Motion No. 1, I wish to advise the House that
we are in support of the Bloc's motion and to provide the
position of the New Democratic Party on this bill.
We opposed the bill at second reading on September 25 due to the
fact that in our opinion it may well weaken our anti-dumping
system, in particular as it compares to our major trading
partner, the U.S., the lesser duty provisions being the chief
example.
Canada has repeatedly stuck its neck out and been hurt in its
headlong embrace of trade liberalization measures i.e., support
for our farmers, FDA, NAFTA, and the World Trade Organization. It
is our belief this is not the time to do so again.
Recently we have been hearing in the media concerns about
agriculture and why we find it so difficult to support our
farmers in terms of any kind of subsidy because of what it may do
to countervailing duties from the United States or other nations
we currently trade with. I find that appalling and I am sure
farmers in Canada would find that appalling as well, to know
their government would be hesitant to help them because of the
reaction from other countries.
I am sure that is the last thing on farmers' minds as they see
animals being shot because they cannot be looked after or the
fact that we have grain and seed rotting away because there are
no storage facilities. Farmers are leaving their farms in droves
as our fishing people have done in our coastal communities as
well.
We are a party that opposed the MAI which is an extended
version, we believe, of the NAFTA arrangement. Some European
nations recently have denied the MAI's going further.
Unfortunately the MAI is stalled at the present time.
We would like to drive a stake through its heart because of the
fact that it was modelled on the NAFTA. European nations are
saying quite publicly who in God's green acres would sign the
NAFTA deal. Canada puts up its hand and says we did. They found
a lot of problems with it. We in the New Democratic Party and
our partners throughout the country have found a lot of problems
with it as well.
1650
We oppose this bill but we accept and support Motion No. 1 by
the Bloc.
[Translation]
Mr. André Bachand (Richmond—Arthabaska, PC): I am smiling, Mr.
Speaker, because a twist in parliamentary procedure has my
colleague from the NPD supporting a motion put forward by the
Bloc Quebecois while opposing the bill. Or else this is an
aspect of the NDP philosophy that escapes me.
Our position is clear: we are in favour of Bill C-35. I do not
want to get into a long speech on this bill. As you know, we
support any legislation that will provide better safeguards for
Canadian industries.
We are currently debating Motion No. 1, dealing with the
possibility of initiating an investigation.
When a complaint is received, it must be determined whether the
information may be shared or not, for the purpose of
establishing the validity of the complaint.
There is a risk in checking, as the Bloc Quebecois pointed out
in committee; it can alert competitors across the country and
abroad. The Bloc Quebecois tried on several occasions to
convince the committee to approve this recommendation.
We still have concerns. In the various laws and regulations
governing the antidumping tribunal, there are two provisions
outlining a number of safeguards designed to ensure that
complaints will not be discussed too openly.
We have strong reservations about this. From the reports, I
gather that the hon. member for Repentigny approved clause 15,
albeit with dissent on this recommendation. I am not sure that
this change will improve Bill C-35.
We may be taking something away from the tribunal or the
government to allow an investigation to go further. Still, the
complainant would be protected under two provisions contained in
the legislation.
I will get in touch with my colleague from Repentigny. We tried
to reach him today, but unfortunately he too is very busy. For
the time being, we will be voting against Motion No. 1.
[English]
Mr. Tony Valeri (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to also speak on
Motion No. 1.
The WTO requires that countries avoid publicizing the receipt of
complaints until an investigation is actually launched. As well
when we look at what Canadian industry actually does, it also
does not publicize its complaint. From that perspective one can
generally avoid third party submissions. In effect it is the
industry that in some sense controls whether third party
submissions actually appear.
Revenue Canada considers relevant third party submissions that
it may receive consistent with its WTO obligations. That is
quite explicit in the anti-dumping and subsidy agreements. It is
required to examine the accuracy and adequacy of information that
may be contained in a complaint prior to initiating an
investigation. By following this process it can
be advantageous in some respects to the complainants who can
actually rectify any possible deficiency that one may have in the
actual complaint they are putting forward.
The department does not solicit such third party submissions
before the initiation of the investigation.
1655
For the reasons I have indicated, the government does not
support Motion No. 1. I have heard from the other parties. They
have indicated that they do support it. It is for the reasons
that I have previously indicated that it is not something that occurs
generally because of the process being followed.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is the House ready
for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The question is on
Motion No. 1. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the
motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the
yeas have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The recorded
division on the motion stands deferred.
We will now go to Motion No. 2.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (for Mr. Benoît Sauvageau) moved:
He said: Mr. Speaker, the Bloc Quebecois considers that Bill
C-35 should not contain provision for the minimum duty.
We think it is premature to include the concept of a minimum
duty in the Special Import Measures Act.
We think the government should stop approving policies that
reduce the protection afforded Quebec and Canadian businesses
when our main trading partners are not doing the same thing.
The Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International
Trade recommends including the concept of a minimum duty in
section 45 of the legislation on public interest. However,
clause 27 of the bill incorporates the concept of a minimum duty
by amending section 45 of the existing legislation.
Thus, the Canadian International Trade Tribunal may, on its own
initiative, or on request, initiate a public interest inquiry if
it is of the opinion that the imposition of an anti-dumping or
countervailing duty, or the imposition of such a duty in the
full amount provided for by any of those sections, in respect of
the goods would not or might not be in the public interest.
As a result of a public interest inquiry, if the tribunal is of
the opinion that the imposition of a duty might not be in the
public interest, the tribunal shall without delay do two things.
First, it shall report to the Minister of Finance that it is of
that opinion and provide that minister with a statement of the
facts and, second, it shall cause notice of the report to be
published in the Canada Gazette.
In addition, in that same report, the tribunal shall specify
either a level of reduction in the anti-dumping or countervailing
duty provided for, or a price or prices that are adequate to
eliminate injury, retardation or the threat of injury to the
domestic industry.
It is through this last measure that the concept of minimum duty
is introduced.
That is why we are moving Motion No. 2 to have clause 27, which
introduces this concept of minimum duty, deleted.
1700
[English]
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
want to say from the outset that Reform is opposed to this clause
largely because it contains the public interest portion in the
SIMA legislation that is so important.
There are cases before the panel right now that have to do with
public interest perhaps not being served by duties that were
applied to baby food supposedly being dumped into Canada. The
result of those duties essentially has made one company into a
monopoly supplier of baby food. We think it is important to have
competition. Therefore, we need the public interest section and
the lesser duty aspect of it in order to maintain competition.
Speaking of the lesser duty itself, the question is, why would
we want a duty above and beyond what is required to actually stop
the flow of goods when they are being dumped?
My understanding in some cases is that duties as high as 40% are
being applied when it would only take 5% to stop the product from
coming in. Therefore, we think the lesser duty idea is a good
improvement and we would like to see the public interest portion
of this bill actually reviewed after a few years to see if it is
serving Canadian consumers to the extent that it should.
A joint committee of finance and foreign affairs and
international trade reviewed the SIMA legislation. They received
a number of representations from companies that asked for a
lesser duty. This change is a result of those representations.
While overall we are supportive of Bill C-35 and the need for
some kind of rules regarding countervail and dumping, in this
case the public interest component is a very important component
and we would not want to lose it. Therefore, we will not support
Motion No. 2.
Mr. Tony Valeri (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the consideration of the public
interest was a key issue, as my hon. colleague mentioned, in the
parliamentary review of the act.
Clause 27 essentially gives effect to the parliamentary
subcommittee's recommendations which the hon. member mentioned.
It gives effect, in a sense, to clarify and improve the public
interest provisions that are presently in the act.
In this regard, clause 27 is really a key component of the bill.
It is really integral to the overall balance sought by the
subcommittee. The balance is struck by the proposed legislation.
More important, among those Canadian industries that seek
protection under this act and certainly other Canadian
stakeholders that may be adversely affected by the application of
duties are organizations like the steel producers and, if someone
looks downstream, the auto parts manufacturers as well.
This government is really interested in ensuring that the
interests of those who may be seriously affected by the
application of SIMA duties are properly taken into account in our
trade remedy system.
Hon. Jim Peterson: That is a really good idea.
Mr. Tony Valeri: I tend to agree. I thank the hon.
member for that intervention.
I am sure this is one of the few instances in which we agree
with my colleague's previous statements, that in fact the public
interest is a key component. We certainly would not want to in
any way diminish that.
I think that by going with the clause which exists in the bill
we strike that balance. It is very important to reiterate that
the balance is struck between the industries and the
stakeholders. That is a great improvement to this act and
something which we will look forward to supporting when it comes
to a vote in the House.
1705
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is the House ready for the
question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The question is on Motion
No. 2. Is it the pleasure of the
House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour of the
motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed will
please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the nays
have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The recorded division on
Motion No. 2 stands deferred.
Hon. Jim Peterson: I rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
I simply want to congratulate you on your efforts and the
progress you have made in French. You are a very good role
model, not only for the members of this Parliament, but for all
Canadians.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): That is very nice. Thanks
to all the members.
[English]
Motion No. 3.
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (for the Minister of Finance, Lib.)
moved:
That Bill C-35, in Clause 44, be amended by replacing, in
the French version, line 38 on page 33 with the following:
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (for Mr. Benoît Sauvageau) moved:
That Bill C-35, in Clause 44, be amended by
adding after line 46 on page 33 the following:
“(3.2) For the purposes of subsection (3.1), “material
harm” means harm that is more than negligible and that is not
immaterial or trifling.”
That Bill C-35, in Clause 44, be amended by
adding after line 46 on page 33 the following:
“(3.2) For the purposes of subsection (3.1), “material
harm” has the meaning given to that expression by the
regulations.”
That Bill C-35, in Clause 51, be amended by
adding after line 18 on page 36 the following:
Mr. Speaker, I would like to add my congratulations to
those of the secretary of state. I believe it was highly
appropriate to have you continue, because languages are learned
through practice and besides, hearing you speak French here in
the House was music to my ears.
Motions Nos. 4, 5 and 6 concern the notion of “material
harm”. In our opinion, the definition of material harm is also
problematical.
1710
The Bloc Quebecois calls for insertion of a definition for
the expression “material harm” into the Special Import Measures
Act. This, coupled with the criteria suggested in the present
regulations, would clarify this important concept for everyone.
For the benefit of all our colleagues in this House, I
would like to read the various motions.
That Bill C-35, in Clause 44, be amended by adding after line 46
on page 33 the following:
“(3.2) For the purposes of subsection (3.1), “material harm”
means harm that is more than negligible and that is not
immaterial or trifling.”
That Bill C-35, in Clause 44, be amended by adding after line 46
on page 33 the following:
“(3.2) For the purposes of subsection (3.1), “material harm” has
the meaning given to that expression by the regulations.”
That Bill C-35, in Clause 51, be amended by adding after line 18
on page 36 the following:
The bill would thus leave no uncertainty for Quebec and
Canadian businesses. These motions are very important, because
the bill is supposed to improve the Canadian system of special
trade measures so that it can better reflect the new economic
context and the changes in the rules of international trade, and
leave no room for confusion.
This motion is, moreover, far more constructive than that
of our hon. colleague from LaSalle—Émard which, by substituting
the term “dommage important” for the term “dommage sensible” in
the French, only makes the scope of the concept even more
nebulous.
This is why we have introduced these three motions, and we hope
to obtain the enthusiastic support of the members of this House.
[English]
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, we
support Motion No. 3. I understand this brings the French text
into line with the English text.
However, we have a more difficult problem with Motion No. 4.
Although I certainly sympathize with my colleague from the Bloc
that the French part on material harm does not translate and
therefore needs some clarification, material harm in English has
a very precise meaning in law. It is a stand-alone section. It
does not need to be defined any further. Instead of material
harm, it would now mean that material harm means more than harm
that is negligible, immaterial or trifling. It becomes almost
silly in English.
If there is some way to resolve that I would not have a problem.
But as it stands, if it is not resolved, then we will not support
Motions Nos. 4, 5 and 6.
[Translation]
Mr. André Bachand (Richmond—Arthabaska, PC): Mr. Speaker, we have
no problem with Motion No. 3. We see however a discrepancy with
the term “material harm” that could cause more harm than what we
used to have.
What I have tried to do is go over the notes of the committee to
find more arguments to use in the House. Unfortunately, I did
not find any. Is it only a language issue? I hope not, but it
seems like it.
We will vote against Motion No. 4, therefore against Motion No.
7 also.
[English]
Mr. Tony Valeri (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I refer to Motion No. 3 which is
essentially a technical amendment that has to do with the
translation. In this regard it was the Bloc who suggested that
the reference to “dommage sensible” in the French version of
clause 44, as a translation for material harm, should be replaced
with a different concept.
1715
Essentially that is what Motion No. 3 does, and I am happy to
see that there is support for that from across the way.
With respect to Motion No. 4, essentially I would agree with
colleagues opposite with the exception of the mover of this that
the definition of material harm as it pertains to the disclosure
of confidential information really involves the qualitative
assessment that is dependent on each separate case. The
motion as it is presently drafted in a lot of ways creates
greater uncertainty and really does not clarify the term.
With this motion one adjective is being replaced with three
adjectives and it does not help to clarify anything.
I would suggest that the government would support Motion No. 3
and not support Motions Nos. 4, 5 and 6.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I finished my speech by referring to the motion by our colleague
from LaSalle—Émard, but I did not have time to elaborate on it.
With the consent of my hon. colleagues in the House, I would
like to say a few words about the motion by our hon. colleague,
the Minister of Finance.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, first of all I want to thank
all my colleagues for allowing me to say a few more words on
Motion No. 3 brought forward by the member for LaSalle—Émard.
The amendment proposed by the member for LaSalle—Émard seems
somewhat vague. Replacing the term “dommage sensible” by
“dommage important” in the French version does not add anything
constructive to the notion of harm itself. The new adjective
used to describe the kind of harm is not defined, and we would
like the member for LaSalle—Émard to give us some clarification
on that.
I would also propose, in case our motion is defeated, that the
government define this notion of “dommage important” in the
regulations, so there is absolutely no confusion as to what it
means.
A case involving material harm resulted in a conviction in the
United States whereas a similar case was judged differently in
Canada. In fact, there was no conviction. That is why we want
some clarification on this definition so we do not end up with a
double standard.
I thank all my colleagues in the House for allowing me to make
these few remarks on Motion No. 3.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is the House ready
for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The question is on
Motion No. 3. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the
motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the
yeas have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The recorded
division on Motion No. 3 stands deferred.
[Translation]
The next question is on Motion No. 4. Is it the pleasure of the House to
adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour will
please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed will
please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the yeas have
it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The recorded division on
Motion No. 4 stands deferred.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (for Mr. Benoît Sauvageau) moved:
That Bill C-35 be amended by adding after line 42
on page 36 the following new clause:
“51.1 The Act is amended by adding the following after
section 97:
98. (1) Within three months after the coming into force of
this section, the Governor in Council shall make regulations
amending the sections of this Act so that, in addition to the
prospective method for the imposition of duty, a retroactive
method is used for this purpose, but the retroactive method shall
not be used for the imposition of duty except where
(2) Subject to subsection (2), a regulation made under
subsection (1) shall come into force six months after the coming
into force of this section.
(3) The coming into force of any regulations repealing a
regulation made by the Governor in Council under subsection (1)
is subject to the approval of the House of Commons by resolution,
and where such approval is given, the regulations shall come into
force on the day following the day on which the approval is
given.”
1720
He said: Mr. Speaker, another of the Bloc Quebecois'
suggestions that was ignored in the bill concerns the
prospective or retroactive method for the imposition of duty.
We hope that Revenue Canada will continue to use the prospective
method. However, where the price or the cost of the goods is
likely to fluctuate substantially, we would like Revenue Canada
to be authorized to use the retroactive method.
This method would be used in exceptional cases and only when
Revenue Canada deemed it necessary.
Accordingly, we are moving Motion No. 7 in the House today. It
reads as follows:
That Bill C-35 be amended by adding after line 42 on page 36 the
following new clause:
“51.1 The Act is amended by adding the following after
section 97:
98. (1) Within three months after the coming into force of this
section, the Governor in Council shall make regulations amending
the sections of this Act so that, in addition to the prospective
method for the imposition of duty, a retroactive method is used
for this purpose,
but the retroactive method shall not be used for the imposition
of duty except where
(2) Subject to subsection (2), a regulation made under
subsection (1) shall come into force six months after the
coming into force of this section.
(3) The coming into force of any regulations repealing a
regulation made by the Governor in Council under
subsection (1) is subject to the approval of the House of
Commons by resolution, and where such approval is
given, the regulations shall come into force on the day
following the day on which the approval is given.”
This may sound a bit technical.
This bill is very important, however, as it governs the
imposition of antidumping and countervailing duties on dumped or
subsidized goods where this dumping or subsidizing has or may
have an injurious effect on producers in Quebec and Canada,
while at the same time making changes to the CITT, the Canadian
International Trade Tribunal.
We agree with the intent of this bill, which marks the
government's first effort to clarify things. Quebeckers and
Canadians, through the Bloc Quebecois, have long been calling
for less bureaucracy and more efficiency.
The government must give producers in Quebec and Canada the
tools they need to compete in the global economy. Dumping and
subsidies are tools criticized but often used by industrialized
countries.
This legislation and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal
Act are necessary, in fact essential tools to counter dumping
and subsidies.
It is important that these laws be designed in such a way as to
appropriately meet the needs they were intended to address. This
review has identified a number of changes that need to be made,
but more needs to be done, including the changes put forward by
the Bloc Quebecois today.
We agree that rapid developments in international trade
emphasize the need to review these laws on a regular basis in
the future.
[English]
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
Motion No. 7 would introduce an entirely new concept into the
SIMA legislation. It really has to do with the retroactivity
that we have a serious objection. I do not understand how this
would work. It would cause a lot of confusion for businesses
which need to know what kind of ground rules they are operating
under. Therefore we would not support this motion.
1725
[Translation]
Mr. André Bachand (Richmond—Arthabaska, PC): Mr. Speaker, we will
support this amendment.
This is something that occurs from time to time, exceptionally,
at Revenue Canada. It could be applied, we feel. Despite the
difficulty of application, it would send a signal that the
Government of Canada can apply a measure retroactively through
its laws and regulations.
We are pleased, even though the committee, at recommendation 10,
said not to change anything about keeping measures retroactive.
We think it is a step in the right direction. It also sends a
message.
Once again, we are not inventing sliced bread. It happens
rarely, but it has happened at Revenue Canada.
We therefore support Motion No. 7.
[English]
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Eastern Shore, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, the New Democratic Party will be supporting Motion No.
7. It would empower Revenue Canada to use the retrospective duty
assessment in cases where there will likely be sufficient
fluctuation in prices or costs. In such cases Revenue Canada
could require cash deposits on incoming goods with the final
liability to be determined on review. The reason is that the
U.S. employs this system for all cases, giving it a tougher
overall regime on anti-dumping. It is not unreasonable to allow
Revenue Canada similar powers which could be used in the
appropriate circumstances.
Mr. Tony Valeri (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I want to clearly state that the
issue was carefully considered and rejected by the parliamentary
subcommittees.
The adoption of this hybrid system would among other things
disrupt the basic balance that was struck by the bill among
stakeholders' interests. It would unnecessarily complicate the
administration of Canada's trade remedy system. The government
would not be supportive of this motion.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is the House ready
for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The question is on
Motion No. 7. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the
motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the
nays have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The recorded
division on Motion No. 7 stands deferred.
The House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred
recorded divisions at the report stage of the bill. Call in the
members.
[Translation]
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, I think you would find
unanimous consent to defer the recorded divisions at report
stage of Bill C-35 to the end of the period set aside for
Government Orders on Tuesday, December 1, 1998.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is there unanimous
consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland):
Accordingly, the recorded divisions on the report stage
motions of Bill C-35 stand deferred until Tuesday, December 1,
1998.
It being 5.30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the
consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on today's
order paper.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[English]
SENATOR SELECTION ACT
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.) moved that Bill
C-382, an act to allow the electors of a province to express an
opinion on who should be summoned to the Senate to represent the
province, be read the second time and referred to a committee.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I had hoped to have this bill come
forward before the Alberta election of senators last month. In
my role as opposition Senate critic at the time I put it into the
mill.
Unfortunately it did not get up before that time. The issue
remains very much the same as it did before the Alberta election.
1730
I am pleased to present Bill C-382 to the House today as it
attempts to bring democratic reform to the upper house of
parliament or our Senate.
The purpose of my bill is to ensure that if a province has a law
providing for the expression of the opinion of the electors on
who should be summoned to the Senate to fill a vacancy, no person
shall be summoned to fill the vacancy unless the electors opinion
has been sought and the results transmitted to the Privy Council,
or unless a year has passed since the vacancy was published in
The Canada Gazette. To break down the legalise, basically
my bill allows for elected senators over appointed senators. Our
current system is to appoint them.
This can be done without constitutional change. Time and again
the government has said it cannot be done, that it requires
constitutional amendment. My bill on the election of senators
does not require any change to our current Constitution.
This was shown in Alberta in 1989 when Stan Waters was elected
and appointed to the Senate by then Prime Minister Brian
Mulroney. I make it very clear to the House and to people
watching that this does not require any constitutional change.
The confusion comes when we want to change the numbers of
senators that represent provinces. That does require
constitutional change, but to elect our senators does not.
The Prime Minister would simply be required to respect the
wishes of the voters of any province with a senatorial selection
act. Two provinces to date have senatorial selection acts, B.C.
and Alberta. Alberta has chosen to use its act on two occasions.
Our first senator, Stan Waters, was appointed to the Senate
without constitutional change. In 1989 hundreds of thousands of
Albertans voted for the first democratically chosen senator in
Canadian history. This was an historic first in Canada and
clearly demonstrated how easily democratic change can be done
without changing the Constitution.
My bill is significant. Electing senators has been an issue
that has been around as long as the House. It has been debated
over and over again and tossed back and forth. It needs to be
resolved, the key point being that Canadians do not want a
government by appointment. They want to have a say. A senate
going back to the last century and the thinking of the last
century no longer works. The world is moving ahead. Canada is
dragging behind. It is time we caught up.
Originally our Senate was meant to represent the regions. A
senator from B.C. would represent B.C. A senator from Ontario
would represent Ontario. A senator from Quebec would represent
Quebec. However, as it now stands, the Senate provides little
more than political representation for the party in power. It is
absolutely essential that we remove patronage appointments from
the Prime Minister's hands and put them into the hands of the
people. That is what my bill would do.
Last month Canadians witnessed a Senate election in Alberta.
There are now two senators in waiting. The final results of that
election on October 19 last were Bert Brown with approximately
332,000 votes, Ted Morton with approximately 261,000, Guy
Desrosiers with approximately 147,000 votes; and Vance Gough with
approximately 131,000 votes. Nearly a million votes is a
significant number. There were a million Albertan votes for an
elected Senate. Both Bert Brown and Ted Morton broke Stan
Waters' record of 256,000 votes, which at that time was the
largest number of votes ever received by any elected member in
the history of Canada. These two senators beat that record.
1735
Clearly it is time for the government to acknowledge the
democratic rights of Canadians and agree to appoint these elected
senators to the Senate when vacancies arise. As it now stands it
is simply undemocratic.
Canadians are governed by both houses of parliament, the Commons
that we are in today and the Senate which is the other house of
parliament. In theory both houses have almost equal powers.
Senators have powers similar to those of elected MPs. They can
write laws, vote on important motions and bills, sit on
parliamentary committees and perform other government functions.
Yet most significant is the fact that senators can approve or
veto legislation that comes from the lower house. Any bill
passed by the elected members of this House must also pass the
Senate to become law. It is completely unacceptable that this
powerful part of our government is run by political appointees,
not by elected representatives.
Senators must be held accountable. Yet there is absolutely no
accountability in the upper chamber and this must change.
Canadians expect and deserve accountability in their public
institutions, and the Senate is lagging far behind.
The Senate is exempt from any accountability to the people. This
was painfully demonstrated last year with the actions of former
Senator Andrew Thompson. Thompson demonstrated and showed that
once appointed senators do not have to answer to anyone including
the prime minister. Once senators are appointed and are in
place, if they so choose they are there until age 75. If
Canadians are to obtain an effective upper house we must give the
Senate a democratic mandate similar to what we have today in the
House of Commons.
As I said earlier, Senate elections can be done easily. They do
not require a constitutional amendment. Many changes to our
country's government require complex constitutional changes but
the Senate elections, as we have already seen clearly
demonstrated in Alberta with Stan Waters, show that it can be
easily done and without major change.
Another issue is that many people say that it will cost too
much. Both the elections of Stan Waters and of the senators last
month were done during municipal elections. The cost is not
great. In fact it is quite minimal because people are already
going to the polls in municipal elections. It simply means
printing another ballot.
Canadians are impatient with this issue and with the government
of the day that has failed to change this system. The national
Angus Reid poll conducted last April shows that the public is now
divided between reforming the upper house and abolishing it
entirely. Very few Canadians want to leave the Senate as it is.
There are three options: leave the Senate as it is, which very
few Canadians want; reform the Senate; or abolish it.
A poll taken last May shows that Manitobans overwhelmingly want
the province's next senator to be elected, not appointed. This
survey found that 86% of Manitobans believe that the people, not
the prime minister, should fill vacancies in the upper house.
Only 7% were in favour of having the prime minister appoint
senators and 7% were undecided. In a similar poll in B.C., 84%
of the residents want to elect their senators.
Here are two separate and independent polls, one in Manitoba and
one in British Columbia with 86% in Manitoba and 84% in British
Columbia saying they want their senators elected. This is not a
wishy-washy issue. As demonstrated by the polls and by Canadians
they want this to happen. Senators such as Senator Gerry St.
Germain have acknowledged an elected Senate would be more
democratic. He said that it was realistic to hope this would be
achieved one day.
Clearly an elected Senate would be far more representative,
responsible and democratic than what we have today.
1740
Let me list the record because to date the current Prime
Minister has made more patronage appointments to the Senate than
his predecessor, Brian Mulroney. This is the same Prime Minister
who severely criticized the past prime minister for his patronage
appointments.
The current Prime Minister has riddled the Senate with political
patronage appointments, including eight former Liberal members of
parliament which include four former Liberal cabinet ministers; a
former Manitoba Liberal leader and long time ally of the Prime
Minister; a former Alberta Liberal leader; a former P.E.I Liberal
leader; a former deputy premier of Quebec; a former candidate for
Liberal leader in New Brunswick who managed the Prime Minister's
leadership campaign in 1990; a failed provincial Liberal
candidate and loyal Liberal worker; a former Liberal riding
president and Liberal Party worker; a prominent B.C. Liberal
organizer, golfing and business buddy of the Prime Minister; a
Quebec Liberal organizer; the wife of the son of former Liberal
Prime Minister Lester B. Pearson; and the list goes on.
How can we have a Senate that is unbiased when the Prime
Minister loads it up with Liberals who rubber stamp legislation?
This was done in reverse with the former government. They loaded
it up with Conservatives. This simply does not serve the
interest of Canadians.
To whom are senators accountable? Originally they were supposed
to be accountable to the provinces, accountable to the regions.
However, because of the political appointment system, they are
accountable only to the political party that appoints them. That
is absolutely wrong.
Recent changes to the House of Lords in Britain demonstrate
democratic reform is long overdue. This week Queen Elizabeth
removed the hereditary voting privileges of the House of Lords.
This was historic, democratic reform. What remains to be seen in
Britain is if the election of senators will now become a reality,
or whether they would unfortunately go into our system of
appointment. It is time to bring democracy to Canada's upper
house.
We as members of parliament answer to our constituents. When we
do well, as we all hope to do, we go back to the polls and
hopefully get re-elected. If we do not do well, we are thrown
out as we should be. This is the system that occurs not only in
lower houses but in upper houses in many parts of the world.
Why can we not have our senators elected and answerable to the
provinces and the constituents that sent them there so that they
are accountable to the people who sent them there instead of
accountable to the political party that appointed them? This is
the real wrong in our Senate.
Many people are becoming jaded because they have a Senate they
feel simply does not work. We get wrangling and haranguing, no
change. In my view as a politician this is why many of us are
held in low esteem. We simply do not have an upper house that is
accountable to the people.
Before the 1993 election the Prime Minister proposed an elected
Senate when he said:
Reform of the Senate is extremely important. I believe in it. We
must look for a division of powers that best serves the interests
of the people, all the Canadian people.
The Prime Minister also said in the House:
To meet the hopes and dreams of those who live in the west and
the Atlantic, a reformed Senate is essential. It must be a
Senate that is elected, effective and equitable.
It is long overdue for the Prime Minister to give Canadians what
he promised, an elected Senate. It is my hope that my bill will
give the Prime Minister the prod that is required to allow him to
live up to his promises.
1745
Mr. Reg Alcock (Winnipeg South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to rise tonight to speak on this issue. It is an issue
that I have thought long and hard about during the 10 years that
I have been elected.
To put the remarks I want to make tonight in context, I am
reminded of a poster that a friend of mine has on the wall of his
office. It says for every complex problem there is a simple
answer and it is wrong.
That is the problem I have with this bill. Reform of the Senate
is a very important issue. It is one that members on this side of
the House have been wrestling with for decades. It is one that
the Senate has wrestled with.
I really find it very difficult when I see Senators depicted in
the way the Reform Party chooses to depict them. I am not
certain what cause is advanced by slandering honest, hardworking
Canadians who choose to serve their country. I do not understand
how that furthers the cause of democracy.
There are a lot of very talented Canadians who work in the other
place. They do good work on behalf of the country and they want
reform. When hon. members read the joint Senate reports of 1984,
1987, 1992, Senators were calling for reform of the Senate,
calling for election.
What is a little confusing in the Reform's approach to this is
that the very election cited, the appointment of Stan Waters to
the Senate by former Prime Minister Mulroney, was done out of
respect for section 4 of the Meech Lake accord which called for a
process of appointment upon the recommendation of the province.
This is the example the Reform Party would put forward of how
this should work. It was an example that was part of Meech Lake
and yet, as I recall, it was the Reform Party that campaigned
against Meech Lake and fought for its demise.
An hon. member: And the Prime Minister.
Mr. Reg Alcock: I as well.
In 1992 with the Charlottetown Accord we moved to a point in
this discussion that we have never been able to get to before. We
actually had a proposal for a triple E Senate. We actually had
the agreement of all the provinces that the Senate would be
equal, 6-6-6; 62 members. We made provisions for aboriginal
representation. It was something that I think many people who
are seized with this issue would never believe we would get to,
but we got there. What did the Reform Party do? The Reform
Party had a proposal for an equal, effective and democratically
elected Senate. It opposed it. It fought against it. In the
end it was voted down.
The Meech Lake accord failed, so the process that was used under
that failed along with it. It was rejected. I supported the
Charlottetown accord for those very principles. I think a triple
E Senate is a very good thing, particularly for western Canada.
Now we are into this debate that sort of capitalizes on people's
desire to make fun of the Senate or to continue to denigrate a
group of people who I think do marvellous work on behalf of
Canada and put forward what they say is an important improvement.
I am astounded, frankly, that the Reform Party would support
this bill or even think of proposing it.
The two provinces the Reform Party is most populous in, Alberta
and British Columbia, represent 23% of the population. They have
11.5% of the Senate seats. The Reform Party is proposing that we
enshrine that, that we give that inequality legitimacy. I do not
understand why it would want to make legitimate a process that
contains a real inequality for the west.
There seems to be no particular advantage to be gained from that.
It is true that the Senate needs reform but if we want to have a
democracy, a democratically elected Senate, the member himself
said part of the functioning of a democracy is at the end of the
term that we are elected for we go back and stand in front of the
people again and ask for a renewed mandate. A one time election
of a senator into a position until he or she is 75 does not allow
for any ability to go back in front of the people. On the issue
of how the rest of the Senate functions, we have a few who are
elected democratically and a few who are living out their terms
in the Senate. How does this lead to a competent, functioning,
well organized approach to improving democracy?
1750
I support the goal. The goal is laudable. But the approach
taken by the Reform Party to produce a reform of the Senate is
simply too glib and I think somewhat misses the point.
If we want a Senate that gives true balance to the
disproportional rep by pop that we have in this House, one that
becomes a true house for the regions or the provinces, which I
would like to see it become, surely we need to reform the entire
institution.
It is too complex an organization to play around with one little
item, to change one or two facets of it. We need to sit down and
reform the Senate. We need to do it in the way we have been
trying to solve all the problems we face right now, piece by
piece, looking at the problem, coming together with the
provinces, with our partners, having the discussions, arriving at
a consensus and acting on that consensus. That is the way we
will get to true constitutional change.
That is the way, working through and carefully solving problems
one at a time, we have managed to get from the very difficult
financial circumstances we were in when we came to government in
1993 to today. That is a process I hope all members would
support. But to jump into this debate to change one small facet
of this I suspect makes the problem worse, not better.
I support the member in his desire to continue this debate on
the reform of the Senate. I certainly will be among members of
the House who will spend a lot of time and energy attempting to
produce a more effective parliament for Canadians. But I cannot
support this particular approach.
[Translation]
Mr. Pierre Brien (Témiscamingue, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it is my turn
to speak on this bill introduced by a member of the Reform Party
on the method of appointing senators.
I must confess that I have not spent hundreds of hours preparing
for such a debate and my constituents will surely forgive me,
because many in Quebec believe the Senate to be an obsolete
institution they could quite happily do without.
In our opinion, any change to the way senators are appointed, or
any other Senate reform, will meet with considerable skepticism
among Quebec voters, who attach little importance to this
institution, and most certainly have no emotional attachment to
it.
I understand that attitude, and fully share it.
Whether rightly or wrongly, people often express much cynicism,
and skepticism about the role of elected representatives, and
politics in general, and generally discredit it. Seeing an
institution like the Senate, I believe people's considerable
cynicism is justified. It is an eloquent example of how
outdated and obsolete some institutions are.
Looking at it from the ordinary citizen's point of view, one may
well wonder what use the Senate serves, period. What concrete
or useful effect has it had on our lives? And you could go as far
back as the day of your birth, Mr. Speaker.
1755
There are serious reservations about the fact that we spend
close to $50 million per year on such an institution. That is a
lot of money. Fifty million dollars is a lot of taxpayers' money
which, year in and year out, is wasted on an institution to
which friends of the Prime Minister are appointed. Whether it is
the Grits or the Tories, the party in office appoints its
friends to the Senate, as a reward or to crown a career of one
kind or another. It is not necessarily needy people who are
appointed.
Still, I can understand why some, who want that institution to
be effective and play a specific role, would like to change the
appointment process. I can understand that.
If indeed we must have a Senate, people should wonder about the
appointment process.
When decisions are made in a democratic system, there must be a
minimum of accountability. What is being proposed is to allow
the provinces, and ultimately the public, to decide who will
represent them in that institution.
This does not in any way change my firm belief regarding the
role of that institution. The proposed system would at least
have the merit of being much more respectful of the public. But
of course, we should first ask the public if it wants a Senate
or not.
Last summer I travelled outside Quebec and I realized that many
people, particularly in British Columbia, share my opinion that
the Senate should be abolished. In Alberta, there is a very
strong movement in favour of a new appointment process.
Elsewhere, people are less concerned.
In Quebec, the issue is basically settled. In my own riding,
during the previous parliament, we had a petition circulated in
convenience stores and other locations. In just a few weeks,
close to 8,000 people signed that petition to abolish the
Senate. Some even asked me where they could sign that petition.
We had limited time to circulate the petition, but we still got
8,000 signatures. This is a lot in a riding like mine or, for
that matter, in any riding.
When we talk about the Senate, we immediately realize that it is
a sensitive issue with the public. People say we are wasting
money for no good reason. They are absolutely right,
particularly in the current context.
There is never any excuse for wasting money. But when people
are asked to tighten their belts, when they see the federal
government reducing provincial transfer payments, in the health
sector, for example—payments to Quebec were cut by several
billion dollars in recent years—and at the same time $50 million
is squandered on the Senate, people do not think their tax
dollars are being put to good use, and they are right.
It costs $50 million a year. Think about it. Over the last 20
years, that adds up to $1 billion. Since the government did not
have that money, because it was spending more than it was taking
in, it borrowed $1 billion over the last 20 years to pay for
this institution.
Is there anyone in the House who will tell me this makes sense?
How could we get rid of the Senate?
Of course, those who want another Senate, or another
institution, could hold a debate, but I think the first thing
would be to get rid of it. Then, those who want such a body or
who want another level of political intervention, a level of
wise individuals overseeing the government, could hold a debate.
In the meantime, we would at least not be throwing $50 million
down the drain.
The thing to do would be to hold a vote in parliament, but also
in each of the provincial legislatures. I am sure this would
meet with widespread approval. Ultimately, and this is where
the problem arises, the senators themselves would have to vote.
One wonders how willing they would be to vote themselves out of
a job when they have such a comfortable arrangement. They are
hardly killing themselves working. There is not a lot to do.
They have no duties in the various territories they represent.
1800
The senators have an assigned designation, except the last eight
appointed by the Conservative government, which ran into some
deadline problems with senators blocking the GST. So eight new
senators were added. The Prime Minister can add positions in
the Senate as he likes. There is a problem there too.
The other senators have designations. Are there people among
our audience who recall having seen their senator? Do they even
know who their senator is? I assume not. Certainly, had they
been elected, people would recognize them and know them better.
On the other hand, I am really not in favour of electing these
people for, once elected, will claim that legitimately they
should have more of a say in managing things. We will end up
with—and here I return to my role as a voter in any one of the
provinces—a municipal, a provincial, a federal and, on top of
it all, a senatorial level.
At some point accountability gets a bit thin. We are familiar
with the federal government's knack of meddling in jurisdictions
not its own—a very strong tendency here in Ottawa. There is
nothing to indicate that things will be any different in an
elected Senate. We can therefore appreciate that nothing is
going to simplify the efficiency of the political system from a
Quebec or a Canadian point of view.
We on the other hand are working hard to eliminate one level of
government. We would like the federal level to disappear, and
Quebeckers will decide to do so, I hope.
We are not for adding more levels, on the contrary. We are for
streamlining the process and giving more power to the local
levels, which are much closer to the people.
It is something of a waste of time to be dealing with
strengthening their role, the selection process and so forth.
The first thing to do is to abolish the Senate, sending the
clear message that this kind of institution and the $50 million
a year it costs are no longer government priorities.
This could get things moving. Interested provinces might pass
similar legislation and, eventually, the senators would be alone
to assume the blame for preventing the will of the people to
abolish the Senate, as expressed by their elected
representatives, from being acted on.
All the renovations under way on the Hill at this time are
costing a fortune.
Some work is being done to accommodate our friends in the other
place, who were complaining last year about not having access to
the parliament buildings through a tunnel, something they want.
The public has a problem with this.
I urge members to focus, within reason, on a single resolution,
which could be passed, stating that there will be no more
Senate. This would be better than making cosmetic changes that
will change very little to the fact that the Senate is a
completely obsolete institution that no longer serves any
purpose in our modern political system and in the real life of
ordinary citizens, the people of Quebec and Canada.
[English]
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am
glad to enter into the debate. I have enjoyed the two previous
speeches. I learned a little bit and much of what I heard was
easy to agree with.
Reform of the Senate has been a goal and objective of most
political parties that come to this place. I was doing some
reading prior to coming here tonight. As early as 1919 the
Liberal Party had Senate reform as part of its platform. Prime
Minister Mackenzie King was in power. With our own party and its
founding convention in 1933 the CCF was adamant that Senate
reform would be a real priority. Again when the NDP was formed
in 1960 that found its way into the priorities of our political
platform.
The flaw I find in the bill we are debating is that we would not
see any serious reform. Even if it may be achievable to put in
place an elected Senate through this piece of legislation, it
would not be the triple E Senate the member's party is usually
promoting.
1805
The equal side of the triple E is where the real barrier is.
Even though we may institutionalize or help to formalize the
institution through the democratic process of voting senators in,
if we do not have the other aspects of Senate reform, we have not
made things any better at all. To this day, after all the
constitutional wrangling and all the best laid plans of political
parties coming and going, no one has managed to implement true
Senate reform, especially in terms of equalization of
representation.
The member for Winnipeg South is quite right that we came very
close in the Charlottetown accord. That is one of the reasons I
was happy to work for the Charlottetown accord. I went to the
five meetings across the country as an ordinary Canadian. I
learned a great deal and I was very enthusiastic about the
opportunities Canadians had within their reach with the
Charlottetown accord, a real reformed triple E Senate. That I
could have supported.
We have chucked that away. We chose not to avail ourselves of
that opportunity. It is no longer there for us. I do not have
any optimism that we will see it back in the national forum in my
lifetime. Most Canadians would rather poke themselves in the eye
with a stick than go through another process like the
Charlottetown accord and all the constitutional wrangling and
frankly, I am one of them.
The Reform Party member from Nanaimo cited a number of polls and
surveys that they have done which indicate broad support for an
elected Senate. I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of those
polls. What we did not hear was that some of those polls gave a
number of options: Do you want an elected Senate? Would you
rather see an abolished Senate? Would you rather leave the
Senate exactly the way it is?
There was an interesting trend in the most recent and the
largest nationwide poll which was the Angus Reid poll in April.
The real trend to watch on the graph in that survey is the
growing support for abolition. From the polls in 1987, 1989 and
now in 1998 the number of people who want an elected Senate is
almost equal to those who want the Senate abolished. Forty-five
per cent say they would like an elected Senate. I believe most
of those voters are really thinking of a triple E Senate, not
just elected. In a scientific poll across the country, 41% now
say abolish, abolish, abolish. That is the camp I am in and I am
happy to promote that position on behalf of our party.
We find that the current situation cannot be fixed. Some things
are irretrievably broken. Tampering and fooling around with it
in a minor way is not going to give us the satisfaction we need.
We believe the abolition of the Senate could actually become the
next unity issue, just as the Charlottetown accord was supposed
to pull the country together finally and let us get passed the
differences we have. I think the abolition of the Senate will
become the single one issue we can all agree on and move forward
together on in a very united front.
The Angus Reid survey shows much higher levels of support for
abolition in the province of Quebec than in the rest of Canada.
The figure is 57% or 59% for abolition. The member from the Bloc
who just spoke points to a petition that was recently circulated
in that province. He was talking about the last parliament.
Last summer a petition was circulated broadly across Canada. I
know one member of the Bloc took a copy of this petition and got
11,000 signatures. I believe that is the figure. We have not
seen the tally yet. Again, that was done in the course of a
couple of weeks. I will read some of the preamble from the
petition.
This is what Canadians are signing in droves across the country
and presumably this is what they believe: “We the
undersigned”—etcetera—“that the Senate of Canada is an
undemocratic institution composed of non-elected members who are
unaccountable to the people; and that the Senate costs taxpayers
some $50 million per year;”—another sore point certainly—“and
that the Senate is redundant, given the roles played by the
supreme court and the provinces in protecting minority rights and
providing regional representation; and that the Senate undermines
the role of MPs in the House of Commons; and that there is a need
to modernize our parliamentary institutions; therefore, your
petitioners call upon parliament to undertake measures aimed at
the abolition of the Senate”.
1810
The petition is getting a lot of support right across the
country. There is multiparty support. An NDP MP and a Liberal MP
put this petition together. We have quotes from a Reform MP
saying he would like to abolish the Senate. We have members from
the PCs saying that Reform would have to modify some of its
policies on the united alternative, one being its position on the
Senate. We have the Reform Party quoted in articles saying that
would be something it would be willing to do. It would be
willing to back off its position on the Senate in order to allow
the united alternative to go forward. I would be happy to share
the quotes with the member from the Reform Party.
We find that no single issue has galvanized Canadians quite as
much as this one lately. It is a very tangible, visceral issue.
Although I am not going to dwell on this, isolated cases of abuse
have brought the issue to the forefront.
I am the first one to recognize that there are many fine people
in the Senate of Canada doing valuable work right across the
country. I have had the pleasure to meet a few since I have been
here. I do not think those fine people would stop doing the fine
work they do if they were no longer senators. I know they got to
be senators because they were fully engaged and seized of these
issues. They are not going to drop them because they are no
longer housed in that building.
Frankly, with the $50 million we would save, who is to say that
the Prime Minister or the government of the day would not make
people special emissaries on certain issues.
There is one senator I had the pleasure of working with on the
child labour issue. She is a champion of social justice in that
regard. Who is to say that if she no longer sat as a senator
that the Prime Minister would not put her in charge of a task
force on child labour and be our representative overseas at the
international forums.
That is all within the realm of possibility. Canadians would
see that as money well spent because we would not have the same
issue of the undemocratic and in fact a barrier to democracy that
exists on the other side.
I would like to spend just one minute on the numbers. The
province of Manitoba was cited in the Reform Party's speech. The
actual figures in the province of Manitoba according to the Angus
Reid poll as of April 1998 were that 45% said to reform the
Senate and 41% said to get rid of it. We were exactly on the
national average for getting rid of it and we were one or two
points higher in terms of reforming it. Those are the real
numbers. It was not 87% want an elected Senate and it is
intellectually dishonest to craft the figures in that way.
[Translation]
Mr. André Bachand (Richmond—Arthabaska, PC):
Mr. Speaker, unfortunately,
previous speakers dealt more with whether the Senate should be
abolished or maintained than with Bill C-382. I would like to
get back to focusing on this bill.
I would like to begin with a few comments. There has been much
talk of the polls on abolition of the Senate and on Senate
reform, but I would like to cast some doubt if I may on them
because, in any poll of Quebeckers and Canadians on politicians,
the terms “abolition”, “lack of confidence”, “not credible” and
“dishonest” keep recurring.
If a poll offers Canadians the opportunity to show how little
they trust the entire political machinery, they will take
advantage of it and say so.
Yet, if time is taken to explain to Canadians why the Senate
exists, then we can initiate a period of reflection and a far
more positive debate.
The hon. member of the Reform Party has spoken of polls. The
one I have looked at often these days is the poll that shows
Reform dropping and the Progressive Conservatives rising. It
may well be the only poll of interest to me at present.
1815
I would like to address the bill, a bill that unfortunately
lacks credibility. The Reform member told us that the bill
could come into effect without any constitutional change. That
is absolutely false.
As it is worded, Bill C-382 would require a constitutional
amendment. The member should look further into this.
Changing section 42 of the Constitution Act requires a close
look at sections 38 and 41 which stipulate that, if the method
of appointing senators is changed, there must be a
constitutional change using the 7-50 formula: 7 provinces and 50%
of the population.
The hon. member may want to look into this, particularly in
light of his clause 4, which provides that neither the Queen's
Privy Council for Canada, the Prime Minister nor any other
minister of the crown in right of Canada can appoint someone to
the Senate, contrary to what is provided in the Constitution.
Therefore, this bill is unconstitutional and out of order.
However, we have something interesting to propose. Bill
C-382 does not solve anything. The Reform member told us about
the context in which the bill was introduced. It was on the eve
of an election to elect a senator in Alberta. It was merely to
put more emphasis on the election of an Alberta senator.
But again, considering what the Reformers are proposing in this
bill, a constitutional amendment would be required: seven
provinces with 50% of the population would have to agree. So,
the Reform Party has to go back to the drawing board.
However, while waiting for a constitutional amendment such as
the abolition of the Senate, a change or whatever else Canadians
may want, we could start working here in this House and make
certain changes. First, we propose to limit a senator's term of
office to 10 years.
This would not be a precedent. Yes, it is a constitutional
amendment, but it is a change that was done through an act of
parliament. For example, the first change regarding the number
of years that a senator can sit was brought about under Lester
B. Pearson, who added a clause (b) providing that a senator
could only sit until age 75.
We could adopt a similar procedure and decide that a senator can
sit for a period of ten years, through an act of parliament and
a constitutional amendment. However, such a constitutional
amendment would not be subject to the 7-50 rule, that is seven
provinces accounting for at least 50% of the population.
This would be the first step.
Of course, this measure would not be retroactive, but it would
send a message that parliament is ready to make changes and to
open the debate on the Senate and the whole parliamentary
system.
If the Senate were abolished, the role of this House would
change automatically. It would be a major change. Would the
number of members be increased? Would it be written into the
Constitution that a specific number of members must come from a
particular region? That is how Quebec protected itself in 1867.
The number of senators from Quebec is protected under the
Constitution. Would the number of members from a particular
region, western Canada, Atlantic Canada, Quebec or Ontario, be
protected under the Constitution? Maybe.
Let us stop using senators as a political currency. Let us be
serious. The first serious step would be to limit the term of
office of senators to ten years.
I am sure most of the senators will agree and will ask for
greater changes in the Senate.
Once again, the Reform members have a problem with the Senate
and they are trying to make use of it. However, they are going
about it in a negative fashion. Even in their document on a new
Canada, it is incomplete. Perhaps there should be a review of
the way the Reform Party works on the Senate.
They often discredit the Senate, but when Reform Party or other
members propose such things they are not helping the senators,
the Senate or Senate reform. They add even more to the lack of
credibility of the people in the Upper House.
They could take the time to explain why the Senate exists, then
good ideas and the positive side of parliamentary reform could
take effect.
1820
It may be interesting, but I would like people, before sweeping
changes are made to the country from one end to the other, to
look at what we can do here, as in the matter of denominational
schools for Newfoundland and Quebec, for instance. We did that
here. We did not need the rule of 7 provinces and 50% of the
population.
We could take a step forward in the case of the Senate. It
could be 10 years, 7 years or 12 years. I think that if the
current government is serious about sending a signal on Senate
reform, if all opposition members are serious about the Senate
as well, this initial step could be taken.
There may be abolitionists in the Senate. We abolished its
equivalent in Quebec, the legislative council, at the end of the
1960s. We had reasons to do so.
My colleague from the Bloc Quebecois has said that, for them, it
was not just a question of eliminating the Senate, but rather of
eliminating a level, the federal government. I would just like
to remind the House that Premier Bouchard has said that,
regardless of the outcome, there will be a type of European-style
federal government to manage Quebec-Canada relations, if Quebec
becomes sovereign.
An in-depth change is being made, but in the end an important
level is still being maintained, a federal level.
The Senate is important. It must be changed, must be amended,
must be improved. We also need to take a look at what is
happening in the House as far as parliamentary representation is
concerned. This must, however, be done with credibility, and
this the Reform Party lacks.
Credibility is needed with respect to the role played by the
Senate, and there must be credibility in particular with respect
to analysing polls. As I said at the start of my speech, any
time a reference made to a politician, it is always a negative
one, and this is wrong. Let us stop fiddling with polls and let
us tell it like it is. Let us inform people about the history
of their country, because, unfortunately, they do not know it.
[English]
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I cannot
help but hear what the Liberals are saying about this. During
the election campaign in 1993 the Prime Minister said that he was
going to revise the Senate. He was going to reform it. The
Prime Minister said, and I know this almost by heart, “Within
two years of forming a government we will have an elected
Senate”. Then he went on to say, and I have memorized this,
“As Prime Minister I can make that happen”. It is a broken
promise.
I want to respond to the member from Winnipeg who said that
Reformers were against the Charlottetown accord, which shows
somehow that we have waffled on it. The answer is no. We have
many reasons to be against the Charlottetown accord and the one
little carrot it gave us regarding the Senate was not one of
those reasons. If that was all there was in the Charlottetown
accord, of course we would have supported it.
The Senate that was proposed was not equal and its election
would have been by the provinces. It was not to be by the people
of the province, it was to be by the legislatures of the
province, if they so chose. So it was not a truly elected
Senate, nor was it an equal Senate. Furthermore, there were a
number of inequities in the accord.
I think the real reason this government wants to keep the Senate
is for a haven for its buddies when it wants to give them a bit
of a reward. That is the way it looks. That is the perception
of many people. I strongly think that we have to revise it. We
have to redesign the way the Senate is selected.
Why not? I have no problem with the fact that I am elected and
accountable to the people of Elk Island. If my constituents do
not like what I am saying or what I am doing, they can get rid of
me. In fact, with a Reform government, they would not have to
wait until an election because we are in favour of more
democratic control by the people. We say that our constituents
could recall us between elections if they were really offended by
what we were doing.
But with senators Canadians can never do anything. Senators are
appointed by someone else. Canadians do not have any say in who
gets appointed and there is never any accountability. There is
no reason in the world for a senator to pay attention.
We certainly have that example right now in a senator from
Alberta who is totally misrepresenting what the people of Alberta
believe and want. At the same time this senator is collecting
his salary he is working full time as the election campaign
manager for the Conservatives.
He is their Alberta campaign manager and he gets a full Senate
salary while he is doing that. Our people find that offensive.
There is no way we can ever get rid of him because he is
appointed for life.
1825
Mr. Speaker, I think my time is up. I could speak a long time
on this subject. I am certainly not finished, but I am going to
stop.
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
as is often the case, the Liberals missed much of the point of my
bill. They were talking about a triple E Senate. I was talking
about one of the Es of a triple E Senate, the elected part. That
is the part that can be done today without any constitutional
change.
I was amazed at the Conservative member who said that it cannot
be done without a constitutional change. It has been done. It
was done with Stan Waters. It is doable. But for the Liberals,
basically, it is all or nothing. We have seen the nothing part.
We have seen the nothing part for basically 100 years from
consecutive governments on that side of the House.
My bill addresses only the elected part. It means that senators
would be elected and accountable to the people who sent them
there, instead of the political party that sent them there.
It does not fix all of the problems. As the member from the NDP
said, most Canadians would rather get a stick in the eye than
have constitutional change. I understand that. Canadians are
not ready for constitutional change. I agree with that. But
this part, the elected part, could be done today.
Let us fix it in short bursts, rather than wait to do it all at
once. We have seen that it was not done by the accord, and it
will not be done by this government. Let us do it in bits and
pieces and fix it, so we are crawling before we move. Fix it bit
by bit, but at least we should have some political will in this
House to attempt to fix it, rather than the rhetoric that we have
been hearing from members across the floor. The bottom line is,
they do nothing.
I believe my bill is doable. It has been proven to be doable by
elections already held in Alberta. I would suggest that we move
forward.
Finally, Mr. Speaker, I would ask for unanimous consent that my
bill be deemed votable.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is there unanimous
consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The time provided for
the consideration of Private Members' Business has now expired
and the order is dropped from the order paper.
ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
[English]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to
have been moved.
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Ms. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I would
like to take this opportunity to follow up on a question
concerning the Shamattawa First Nation which I asked in the House
on November 5.
Shamattawa is facing horrific social problems. There have been
over 120 suicide attempts since 1992 and 80% of the first
nation's youth are addicted to solvents. This level of solvent
abuse and the personal and social consequences of it represents a
health and humanitarian crisis that cannot be ignored.
Current efforts to deal with this problem have proven to be
inadequate. The poverty that has led to these problems is a long
term issue that desperately needs to be properly addressed.
Addiction treatment is not available in most first nations,
including Shamattawa, so addicts have to leave their homes to get
treatment. They are then returned to their communities, back
into the poverty and desperation that caused their problem in the
first place, without support. There is a desperate need to
improve social conditions in remote first nations and to provide
ongoing support for recovering addicts when they return to their
communities.
1830
The Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples recognized this
problem and the need for long term solutions. It called for
healing centres in troubled communities like Shamattawa to
provide the ongoing support that recovering addicts need to keep
from relapsing.
Over two months ago the chief of Shamattawa personally delivered
a proposal for a healing centre to the minister of Indian
affairs. The lack of response from the minister prompted my
November 5 question asking why the government was ignoring the
appeals of the Shamattawa First Nation. The answer I received
was the sort of empty, evasive reply we on this side of the House
have become all too used to.
The parliamentary secretary said that the government is
concerned about the level of poverty, in particular in the
community of Shamattawa, and that it is very aware of the
problems in the first nation. He said that the government was
working diligently on these problems. This is all very easy to
say, but the people of Shamattawa have yet to see the benefits of
this concern and diligence. While the government ponders what it
can do about this crisis, in Shamattawa children as young as four
are becoming addicted to solvents and homeless people are being
left outside to freeze.
Six days ago Indian affairs officials in Winnipeg met with the
chief of Shamattawa and would not commit to any help whatsoever.
While this meeting was going on there was another solvent related
death in Shamattawa. A teenage boy, high on solvents, shot and
killed another boy.
The proposal for a healing centre in Shamattawa would cost the
government less than $1 million. Recently we heard that the
government is giving $10 million to alleviate the poverty being
suffered in northern Russia. I am not against foreign aid, but
Shamattawa has asked for less than one-tenth of what Russia got
and received nothing.
There are many remote first nations with social problems as
desperate as those of Shamattawa. It is criminal that in a
country of Canada's wealth such conditions are allowed to
persist. All that is needed is a relatively small amount of aid.
Will the government now commit itself to administering
meaningful aid to to Shamattawa First Nation and to other
northern communities at the earliest possible opportunity?
Mr. David Iftody (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Indian Affairs and Northern Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I am pleased to respond to the hon. member for Churchill on
behalf of the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
concerning the urgent social problems at the Shamattawa First
Nation.
Again the government is very concerned and deeply disturbed
about the conditions facing the Shamattawa First Nation and is
taking action. We have been meeting with the Shamattawa First
Nation over the past few months to formulate long term solutions
to improve life for residents of this community.
At the most recent meeting of November 20, officials from the
Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and Health
Canada met with the chief of the Shamattawa First Nation and
Grand Chief Francis Flett whom I know personally of the Manitoba
Keewatinowi Okimakanak. They discussed ways to improve
conditions for youth in the community to address the high rates
of solvent abuse and suicide.
One proposed solution is for the first nation to build an arena
and recreation facility that would address these social problems
and combat boredom among youth. The Department of Indian Affairs
and Northern Development is pleased to commit $400,000 toward the
construction of this complex, and the first nation anticipates
starting construction in the spring.
The department has also identified $33,000 to assist first
nations in the development of their own long term human resource
strategy. This strategy will target education and employment
opportunities for youth, giving them more opportunities for a
brighter future. We did not stop there or our efforts will not
stop there.
In the 1996-97 budget for the Shamattawa First Nation, in
addition to the regular capital outlays for such things as
housing which affects the social conditions and the psychological
conditions of the people on reserves, we have committed $2.86
million to housing, which will provide 33 additional houses for
the Shamattawa community, and $4.73 million to a water treatment
facility.
To conclude, we are working very diligently in this regard. I
thank the hon. member for her questions. We are working on these
very serious problems in a number of communities across Canada
with the aboriginal leadership. We want to resolve them as much
as the hon. member for Churchill does.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The motion to adjourn the
House is now deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly, this
House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m., pursuant to
Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 6.33 p.m.)