36th Parliament, 1st Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 18
CONTENTS
Wednesday, October 22, 1997
1400
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | TRANSPORTATION
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Duncan |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HOCKEY
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Bonnie Brown |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE LATE DOROTHY LAM
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ted McWhinney |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MEMBER FOR VAUDREUIL—SOULANGES
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Louis Plamondon |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADIAN VOLUNTEER ADVISERS TO BUSINESS
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Wayne Easter |
1405
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | NORTHERN STAR AWARD
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Karen Kraft Sloan |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | JUSTICE
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ken Epp |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | LAND MINES
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Carolyn Parrish |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | NATIONAL SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY WEEK
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Hélène Alarie |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | JOB CREATION
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Denis Paradis |
1410
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PORNOGRAPHY
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Maurice Vellacott |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | BLOC QUEBECOIS
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Denis Coderre |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE ENVIRONMENT
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Rick Laliberte |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | INUIT ART
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Nancy Karetak-Lindell |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MOTHERS AGAINST DRUNK DRIVING
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
1415
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE ENVIRONMENT
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Preston Manning |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Christine Stewart |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Preston Manning |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Christine Stewart |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Preston Manning |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Christine Stewart |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chuck Strahl |
1420
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Alfonso Gagliano |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chuck Strahl |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Alfonso Gagliano |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | FRANCO-QUEBEC ACCORD ON CHILD SUPPORT
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Daniel Turp |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Stéphane Dion |
1425
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Daniel Turp |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEALTH
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Alexa McDonough |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Alexa McDonough |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Paul Martin |
1430
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ENVIRONMENT
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jean J. Charest |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Christine Stewart |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jean J. Charest |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Christine Stewart |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADIAN INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT AGENCY
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Miss Deborah Grey |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Diane Marleau |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Miss Deborah Grey |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | FRANCE-QUEBEC AGREEMENT ON COLLECTION OF SUPPORT PAYMENTS
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire |
1435
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Stéphane Dion |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Stéphane Dion |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ENVIRONMENT
|
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Gilmour |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Christine Stewart |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Gilmour |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Christine Stewart |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | TOBACCO LEGISLATION
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Réal Ménard |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
1440
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Réal Ménard |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | JUSTICE
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Myron Thompson |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Myron Thompson |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | TOBACCO ACT
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Pauline Picard |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADIAN ARMED FORCES
|
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Pat O'Brien |
1445
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Art Hanger |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Art Hanger |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EDUCATION
|
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Libby Davies |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvon Godin |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
1450
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | JUSTICE
|
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Casey |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Casey |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | VIOLENCE
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Shaughnessy Cohen |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Anne McLellan |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | BANKING
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Paul Martin |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | FRANCE-QUEBEC AGREEMENT ON COLLECTION OF SUPPORT PAYMENTS
|
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jean J. Charest |
1455
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | SMALL BUSINESS
|
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Tony Ianno |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. John Manley |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | WAR MEDALS
|
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Abbott |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Hedy Fry |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | NATIONAL DEFENCE
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | NIGERIA
|
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bob Mills |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
1500
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PRESENCE IN GALLERY
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | The Speaker |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | The Speaker |
1505
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Daniel Turp |
1510
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Stéphane Dion |
1515
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PRIVILEGE
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Amending Legislation
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Garry Breitkreuz |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
1520
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ORDER IN COUNCIL APPOINTMENTS
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Marlene Catterall |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Procedure and House Affairs
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ACCESS TO INFORMATION ACT
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-253. Introduction and first reading
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Inky Mark |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | IMMIGRATION ACT
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-254. Introduction and first reading
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Stan Dromisky |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CRIMINAL CODE
|
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-255. Introduction and first reading
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Art Hanger |
1525
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-256. Introduction and first reading
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ted White |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EMPLOYMENT EQUITY ACT
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-257. Introduction and first reading
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ted White |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CRIMINAL CODE
|
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-258. Introduction and first reading
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Forseth |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CRIMINAL CODE
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-259. Introduction and first reading
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Myron Thompson |
1530
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | YOUNG OFFENDERS ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-260. Introduction and first reading
|
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chuck Cadman |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | IMMIGRATION ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-261. Introduction and first reading
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Reynolds |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CRIMINAL CODE
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-262. Introduction and first reading
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Abbott |
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HOLIDAYS ACT
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-263. Introduction and first reading
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Abbott |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PETITIONS
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Human Rights
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Cannis |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Finlay |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Seals
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Duncan |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | National Parks
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Abbott |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Human Rights
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John O'Reilly |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Criminal Code
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Howard Hilstrom |
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Goods and Services Tax
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Miss Deborah Grey |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT ORDERS
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | WAYS AND MEANS
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Customs
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion for concurrence
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADA CO-OPERATIVES ACT
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-5. Second reading
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bob Kilger |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Solomon |
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Eric Lowther |
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Francine Lalonde |
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Lynn Myers |
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Walt Lastewka |
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Susan Whelan |
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Pierre de Savoye |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Keith Martin |
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Walt Lastewka |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Charlie Power |
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Walt Lastewka |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Rick Borotsik |
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Joe Comuzzi |
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Walt Lastewka |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Harvard |
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bob Kilger |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADA CO-OPERATIVES ACT
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-5. Second reading
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Howard Hilstrom |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yves Rocheleau |
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Don Boudria |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Health
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Joseph Volpe |
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Aboriginal Affairs
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Derrek Konrad |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Joseph Volpe |
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | International Trade
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![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Bonnie Brown |
![V](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Julian Reed |
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(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 18
![](/web/20061116193414im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/crest2.gif)
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Wednesday, October 22, 1997
The House met at 2 p.m.
Prayers
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The Speaker: As is our practice on Wednesday we will now
sing O Canada, and we will be led by the hon. member for
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough.
[Editor's Note: Members sang the national anthem]
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
TRANSPORTATION
Mr. John Duncan (Vancouver Island North, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, in 1975 four rail tanks containing 340 tons of toxic
chlorine fell off a barge during a storm on the lower west coast
and have never been located.
In May when I requested a summer 1997 search, the Minister of
the Environment assured me that the fisheries minister has prime
responsibility for this issue. No search was initiated.
We now know that 12 months ago a proven salvage operator in B.C.
approached the federal government with a proposal to find the
tanks for the sum of $30,000. This risk free offer was rejected.
The clock is ticking on a potential lethal chlorine gas escape
22 years after the sinking. People living along the Strait of
Georgia want the minister to stop sitting on his hands.
Does the minister think spending this $30,000 is somehow
unimportant?
* * *
HOCKEY
Ms. Bonnie Brown (Oakville, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, questions
about Canadian identity and unity have been debated for decades,
but such debates have little relevance to the daily lives of
Canadians.
One reality in our lives is that at this time of year our
children are heading back to ice rinks to play a game ingrained
in our identity. It is fall and therefore it must be the start
of hockey season. Clearly hockey is Canada's great unifying
force. We have all just been reminded of the enormous pride we
felt at Team Canada's great victory in 1972.
In backyard rinks and community arenas, people are lacing up
their skates to take part in a Canadian tradition. Therefore it
is appropriate to thank the dedicated families and volunteers who
facilitate Canada's game, for they are the torch bearers of an
integral part of Canadian identity, unity, heritage and pride:
the game of hockey.
* * *
THE LATE DOROTHY LAM
Mr. Ted McWhinney (Vancouver Quadra, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the late Dorothy Lam was the wife of the first Chinese born
Lieutenant-Governor of British Columbia, David Lam, and a most
gracious chatelaine in her own right.
She will also be remembered in British Columbia as the driving
force behind the David and Dorothy Lam Foundation which directed
millions of dollars to universities and to cultural and
charitable initiatives in B.C., including the remarkable Sun Yat
Sen Garden in the centre of downtown Vancouver, in whose
classical Chinese architectural design, as well as in the
planning and financing, she was a main inspiration.
* * *
[Translation]
MEMBER FOR VAUDREUIL—SOULANGES
Mr. Louis Plamondon (Richelieu, BQ): Mr. Speaker, yesterday
the hon. member for Vaudreuil made the following statement “Quebec
is not as open to the minority rights of anglophones as Ontario,
Manitoba or New Brunswick are to francophones”.
With this statement not only did the hon. member for Vaudreuil
expose his ignorance and prejudices publicly, but he also echoed
the government line, for all of its leading lights denigrate Quebec
society, its tolerance, its democratic system.
Today reality is so distorted that the Quebec Liberal MPs firmly
believe that francophone Canadians are better treated than English
speaking ones by their provincial government. The reverse is true.
Rather than getting all indignant about the insulting words of
his colleague yesterday, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs
ought, as should the Prime Minister and the President of Treasury
Board moreover, confess to the same attitude, for he is directly—
The Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member. The
hon. member for Malpeque now has the floor.
* * *
[English]
CANADIAN VOLUNTEER ADVISERS TO BUSINESS
Mr. Wayne Easter (Malpeque, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise to
acknowledge the special achievements of some of my constituents
in the riding of Malpeque.
I would like to congratulate Mr. Gordon and Mrs. Antje
MacEachern who spent 13 weeks in Lodge, Guyana at the
Convalescent Home for Children, an institute operated by the Red
Cross Society.
As members of the Canadian Volunteer Advisers to Business, the
MacEacherns worked to improve the living standards with others in
developing nations.
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In Lodge, Guyana Mrs. MacEachern set up a system and trained
staff in early childhood development which proved to be a great
success. Through lectures, hands-on training, role playing and
video feedback, Mrs. MacEachern helped provide an enjoyable
setting for children and staff.
I would like to congratulate the MacEacherns for their work and
dedication to improving our world one step at a time.
* * *
NORTHERN STAR AWARD
Mrs. Karen Kraft Sloan (York North, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
would like to commend Environment Canada for initiating the
Northern Star Award program. The Northern Star Award will
recognize the environmental contributions of young people aged 16
to 24 in the areas of public policy, community service,
communication and creativity, science and technology, and
environmental entrepreneurship.
The 12 winners of the award will form a group called the Polaris
Network. They will be provided with a group web site and will
receive computer training. Over a period of one year, the 12
members of this network will share their experiences and their
expertise. They will work together to inspire others to get
actively involved in building healthier environments in their
communities and regions.
I ask all members of the House to encourage young Canadians to
apply for this award.
Bonne chance aux étudiants.
* * *
JUSTICE
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, our hearts
go out to the family and friends of Donna Lee Hallett. She was
brutally murdered, bludgeoned to death, in 1993. Now, four years
later, her murderer was sentenced to two years. Adding to their
pain and grief, the bereaved must now also bear the anger of
having her murderer go virtually unpunished.
The judge, in trying to justify the sentence, said that the
murderer was entitled to 10 years of credit for the four years he
served in custody. Stephen Schwalm brutally murdered a
defenceless woman in cold blood and in return he gets four years
of free room and board in the Edmonton Remand Centre followed by
two years in jail. Then he goes free.
When will the justice minister do something, anything, to stop
this kind of travesty of justice, this one happening in her very
own city?
* * *
LAND MINES
Mrs. Carolyn Parrish (Mississauga Centre, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I was pleased to be part of the Canadian delegation of
NATO parliamentarians meeting in Romania last week which passed
the following resolution: “Whereas more than 110 million
anti-personnel land mines are placed in 65 nations around the
world, aware that existing de-mining efforts and techniques clear
fewer than 100,000 per year while 2 million to 5 million are laid
yearly, the assembly urges member governments and
parliamentarians to the North Atlantic Alliance to sign, ratify
and implement a comprehensive ban on the production, stockpiling,
transfer and use of anti-personnel land mines and to devote
additional resources to the development of technologies intended
to improve the efficiency of de-mining efforts and ensure they
are rapidly made available to nations suffering the effects of
the large scale use of land mines”. This passed at NATO.
I would also like to add my sincere compliments to the Minister
of Foreign Affairs for all he has done and to the Prime
Minister—
* * *
[Translation]
NATIONAL SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY WEEK
Ms. Hélène Alarie (Louis-Hébert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, as the Bloc
Quebecois spokesperson on science, research and development, I am
pleased to speak in this House to draw attention to national
science and technology week, October 17 to 26.
Science and technology are the very lifeblood of a modern
country, and this national week must make the government aware of
the need to invest in research funding councils, rather than
sprinkling small amounts here and there, and interfering in areas
of provincial jurisdiction.
National science and technology week is an ideal opportunity
for the people of Quebec and of Canada to become more aware of the
importance of this sector of the economy. Our economic future
depends on our ability to rise to the challenge of international
competition.
* * *
JOB CREATION
Mr. Denis Paradis (Brome—Missisquoi, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, two weeks
ago, I had the pleasure of announcing the creation of new jobs for young
people in my riding of Brome—Missisquoi.
A company from Bromont, Univirtuel-Multimédia & Interconnectivité,
will create 30 jobs in the area of multimedia production. The Government
of Canada will contribute $207,600 to support this job creation
initiative.
1410
By creating these new jobs for young Canadians, Univirtuel-Multimédia
supports our government's youth employment strategy, which is
designed to help our young people find that first job when they come out
of school. The company will kill two birds with one stone since it will
help Bromont strengthen its position in the high tech sector.
I congratulate Guy Désautels and his associates, and I urge other
businesses to follow their example. Welcome to Bromont's high tech park
and thanks to my colleague, the Minister of Human Resources Development.
* * *
[English]
PORNOGRAPHY
Mr. Maurice Vellacott (Wanuskewin, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the group Canadians Addressing Sexual Exploitation has sponsored
white ribbon against pornography week and some of the members of
the House are wearing white ribbons in support of this.
People who view pornography are affected in different ways, but
they are all affected. Child molesters have been shaped by the
pornography they view. Individuals who become rapists have by
pornography been desensitized to the personhood and dignity of
women.
And those seduced by pornography who do not become sexual
criminals nevertheless develop a contaminated view of human
sexuality. This breeds unfaithfulness to one's spouse and is
therefore destructive to families.
We are reminded of the need to restrain the pornography industry
which causes so much personal devastation and societal harm.
Those opposing this cancer are to be commended for their courage
and endeavours in these days.
* * *
[Translation]
BLOC QUEBECOIS
Mr. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the PQ's
loudspeakers in Ottawa made a lot of noise yesterday, in an attempt to
cover the fact that separatists got caught trying to do things behind
the back of Canada on the international scene.
In order to give more clout to Lucien Bouchard's visit to Paris,
the PQ experts in international wheeling and dealing had managed to
include in an agreement on child support wording that would have given
the agreement a symbolic meaning that it was not supposed to have.
It is truly deplorable to see how far Bloc and PQ members are
prepared to go to enlist France's support.
When will separatists stop threatening the harmonious relations that
everyone is trying to establish between France, Canada and Quebec?
* * *
[English]
THE ENVIRONMENT
Mr. Rick Laliberte (Churchill River, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I
rise today to comment on the climate change treaty to be signed
in Kyoto, Japan this December.
Canadians know about global warming. However, empty Liberal
promises, broken international treaties, misleading words and
fearmongering uttered in this House are not giving Canadians an
honest picture. The environment minister and Reform members keep
stressing the supposed costs for all Canadians. Why do they
ignore the potential benefits for our industry and our workers?
Canadians need to know that thousands of jobs would be created
in any country dedicated to meeting international emission
targets. There are more than environmental and economic benefits
involved: There is our children's future. As we enter the new
millennium, Canada should be in the forefront of developing
efficient technologies to use existing fuels, while encouraging
alternative and renewable energy sources.
* * *
INUIT ART
Mrs. Nancy Karetak-Lindell (Nunavut, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the popularity of Inuit art has brought great opportunities to
many northern artists. Unfortunately, Inuit artists are not the
only ones profiting from these opportunities.
An industry producing imitation Inuit carvings and prints,
commonly referred to as fakelore, is making it harder and harder
for legitimate artists to sell their work. This clearly must
come to an end.
This fakelore is so common that a group of Inuit tourists from
my riding were shocked to see that the parliamentary gift shop
here in Centre Block is selling it.
I am pleased to inform the House that following our
conversation, Mr. Speaker, we will be exploring options to
promote legitimate Inuit art in the parliamentary gift shop.
* * *
MOTHERS AGAINST DRUNK DRIVING
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, a young west coast student. An east coast athlete.
A mother and her son in Ottawa. Each belongs to a club for which
membership was not an option. Each was killed on a Canadian
highway by a drunk driver.
This association's membership was sadly increased again today by
four, and does so every day. More than 400 people will also be
injured today as a result of alcohol related crashes. And this
will happen again tomorrow and the next day.
It is a fact that alcohol significantly increases the risk of
motor vehicle crashes. It is also a fact that alcohol increases
the severity of traffic collisions.
Canadians witness far too many tragedies that could be
prevented.
Tomorrow the organization MADD, Mothers Against Drunk Driving,
will be in Ottawa to reveal the results of an important survey.
Following their press conference, I will host an informal
reception where all members of Parliament are invited to meet
with the board and members of MADD and discuss the proposed
initiatives.
1415
I encourage all my colleagues to participate in what will be a
very informative session. Finally, I congratulate MADD for its
tremendous efforts in combating the daily carnage on our highways
caused by drunk drivers.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
THE ENVIRONMENT
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the environment minister is going to Kyoto, Japan in two
months to sign a massive emissions treaty. Depending on how
these negotiations unfold, this emissions deal could end up
affecting the life of every Canadian.
Yesterday the environment minister told the House that the
Liberals have already made up their minds to sign “legally
binding targets in Kyoto”.
Why has the environment minister publicly committed to signing a
treaty that has yet to be negotiated? Is that not putting the
cart before the horse?
Hon. Christine Stewart (Minister of the Environment,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the international community recognizes
that climate change is a global problem every nation in the world
must address.
The prime minister at the meeting of the G-8 in Denver at the
end of May and again at the special session of the United Nations
in June committed our country—and others did the same—to medium
term legally binding commitments in Kyoto, Japan to address this
very serious global problem.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, yesterday we asked the environment minister whether she
will sign the Kyoto deal even if the Canadian provinces do not
agree to it. She refused to answer, saying only that she would
negotiate with the provinces to implement whatever deal she signs
in Japan.
Yesterday Alberta's environment minister said in no uncertain
terms that Alberta will not accept as binding an emissions treaty
arrived at in this way.
Does the Liberal government intend to force this emissions deal
down the throats of Albertans exactly in the same way it enforced
the national energy program?
Hon. Christine Stewart (Minister of the Environment,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, comparisons are odious.
I would like to inform the member across the floor that I have
been, with my colleagues on this side, in dialogue with the
various stakeholders on this issue across the country. I spent a
day long session with my provincial counterparts discussing this
issue. I just finished a meeting with all of them, including my
counterpart from Alberta, and they all recognize the importance
of this country addressing this important issue.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, we remember the dialogue that preceded the national
energy program, so excuse us if we do not have much faith in it.
Yesterday environment said that implementing the Kyoto deal will
“incur costs”. The Conference Board of Canada estimates that
those costs could reach $4,000 a year for the average family.
Canadians have to be told where those moneys are going to come
from. Are they going to come from fuel taxes? Are they going to
come from carbon taxes? Are they going to come from other taxes?
Or are they going to come from all of the above?
Which Canadians are going to have to pay for the Kyoto deal and
how much will they pay?
Hon. Christine Stewart (Minister of the Environment,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the federal government assures all
Canadians that as a national issue we are all going to have to
address the measures that will have to be taken. There will not
be measures that are not discussed thoroughly with the major
stakeholders on this important issue.
There are also important opportunities for this country attached
to addressing this issue.
I would like to quote to the House a statement made by the
chairman of British Petroleum some weeks ago in which he said
“The time to contemplate action is not when the links between
greenhouse gases and climate change can be conclusively proven”.
* * *
GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, on
October 6 the minister of public works claimed that the
government introduced new contracting rules in 1994, rules that
were supposed to clean up the contracting fiasco in his
department. Two years after the changes were supposedly made,
his own director general of audits admits there is evidence of
continuing contract manipulation in his own department.
How can the minister claim that the mess in his own department
was cleaned up when his own officials were saying there was
ongoing contract manipulation?
1420
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Public Works and
Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if the member has
proof that there is manipulation he should come forward and give
it to us. We always try to improve the system. We have a good
system and every day we find some discrepancies and we change
them.
If the member has any proof he should come forward so that we
can look at it properly.
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
have a copy of a leaked confidential memo written by the Director
General of Audits and sent to the Deputy Minister of Public
Works. This memo describes the doctoring of documents and
instances where appropriate ministerial approval was bypassed.
How can the minister reassure Canadians that contracting
procedures are being followed by the Liberal government when his
own Director General of Audits condemns the practices that he has
initiated?
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Public Works and
Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have a third
party review in place. Whenever there is a contract that has not
been following procedure we know about it. We make sure the
rules are followed.
Again the hon. member, instead of throwing into the air the
usual innuendo the Reform Party is used to, should come forward
with specific facts and then we can look at them.
Right now the auditor general report states very clearly that we
have a good system. Every day and every year we are improving
it.
* * *
[Translation]
FRANCO-QUEBEC ACCORD ON CHILD SUPPORT
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Government of Quebec is under no obligation, by tradition or otherwise,
to have Ottawa approve an agreement on a matter within its jurisdiction
signed with another government, in this instance to enforce child
support with the French government.
How can the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs claim today that
Quebec should have this agreement, which is within its exclusive
provincial jurisdiction, approved by Ottawa?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, first of all, I would like to quote, for the benefit of the
hon. leader of the Bloc Quebecois, the statement made by the French
government.
It reads “The prior agreement of the federal government to the
signature of an agreement on mutual legal assistance with Quebec is a
necessary condition to the approval—by the French
parliament—Without this agreement, the Franco-Quebec accord would not
be valid in France”.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, this
is fantastic. The minister is now saying precisely what we were saying
yesterday and the exact opposite of what he said yesterday.
Yesterday, the Minister of Foreign Affairs stated that France had
voluntarily supplied the federal government with the text of the
agreement, claiming there was a problem and that it did not have to,
when the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs should have known.
How could they claim that France, given its legal tradition, its
legal framework, should not supply Ottawa directly with this agreement
signed with Quebec?—
The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs.
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, this statement is wrong, very wrong.
The fact of the matter is that we have signed with France a treaty
which applies to all provinces. Unfortunately, Quebec refused to join
the Canadian and French governments in signing this treaty. That is
Quebec's problem.
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the other Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Minister
of Intergovernmental Affairs.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Daniel Turp: The agreement between Quebec and Paris is an
international agreement having to do with the collection of support
payments and the government seems to want to stretch its tentacles
into provincial areas of jurisdiction.
Is the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs prepared to admit
that, by requiring that the agreement come under Canada's umbrella
agreement, the federal government is denying—
The Speaker: The Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Bloc Quebecois is contradicting itself. The Minister
of Foreign Affairs has just explained that the French government
cannot sign this agreement without the assurance that the Canadian
government is in agreement. That is the fundamental issue.
1425
I will not accuse the hon. member of lying, as the leader of
the Bloc Quebecois is forever doing. I merely point out to him
that he is mistaken.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: I ask all members to be very judicious in their
choice of words. I do not want the members to use the word
“lying”
in the House, even in the manner it was used today.
The hon. member for Beauharnois—Salaberry has the floor.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: He should withdraw what he said.
An hon. member: Tell him he lied.
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): The Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs lied.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
[English]
The Speaker: Colleagues, when we use words that even come
close to being unparliamentary I always ask you to please be
judicious in your words.
However, when words are used that are clearly unparliamentary
you leave your Speaker with very little choice. I will deal with
this matter at the end of question period.
* * *
HEALTH
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
disastrous effects of the finance minister's mistake in slashing
$1.2 billion out of health care this year becomes more and more
evident.
Canadians are shocked to learn that the federal government is
now the lowest contributor among major health care funders. The
latest figures reveal that the federal government used to pay 35%
of health care costs with individuals paying 24%. Today as a
result of Liberal cuts those numbers are reversed with
individuals forced to pay over 31%.
When will the finance minister admit that his excessive cuts are
leading us directly to two tier American style health care?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the House will be well aware that the government is already
committed to establishing a $12.5 billion floor for the cash
transfer to the provinces beginning next year. In doing so we
are acting on the recommendation of the National Forum on Health
that spent two years looking into the needs of the Canadian
health care system.
As we look across the country we see many provinces that have
surpluses, that have money in the bank. If they see the need for
further investment in health care, it is entirely open to those
provinces to make those investments.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
National Forum on Health said that cuts were coming too far and
too fast.
Canadians are paying a terrible price for the finance minister's
cuts to health care. They are paying with their health and they
are paying with their pocketbooks. Canadians are right to be
worried that health care will not be there for them when they
need it.
Will the finance minister agree to correct his mistake and
cancel this year's reckless and irresponsible cut of another $1.2
billion out of health care for Canadians?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, as the Minister of Health outlined very clearly, the
fact is that the way the set-up was occurring and because of the
increase in tax points to the provinces the cash was going down.
It was going down far below $12.5 billion, far below $11 billion,
far below $8 billion and far below $6 billion.
1430
As a result of the actions of the government it has been frozen
at $12.5 billion. That is not a ceiling; that is a floor. It is
an absolute guarantee to every single province and to every
single Canadian citizen that the federal government stands behind
the principles of the Canada Health Act.
* * *
ENVIRONMENT
Hon. Jean J. Charest (Sherbrooke, PC): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of the Environment and is on the
issue of climate change.
The minister will know that for Canada this is an extremely
serious issue not only for our ecosystem but economically,
especially given the fact that our economy is export oriented.
Would the minister confirm and guarantee to the House of Commons
today, as we did at the earth summit in Rio in 1992 where she was
a member of the delegation, and given the seriousness of the
issue and the interlap in jurisdiction, that provincial
governments will be full-fledged members of the Canadian
delegation at the Kyoto summit?
Hon. Christine Stewart (Minister of the Environment,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned earlier, I had a meeting
with all my provincial counterparts a few moments ago. I had
agreed with them some weeks ago that they would be members of the
delegation. The provincial counterparts will determine who will
fill the two to three positions.
Hon. Jean J. Charest (Sherbrooke, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
minister will know how important it is to actually be able to
implement the agreement in Kyoto.
Will the minister today inform us of what will be the Canadian
position and whether or not the Canadian position will also
include a comprehensive approach which allows Canada to take
credit for efforts that we allow, that we enable, in developing
countries with respect to reducing CO2 emissions?
Hon. Christine Stewart (Minister of the Environment,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, an important element of Canada's
negotiating position is to try to put in place the banking of
credit. That is one element of the framework in which we will
place our targets and time lines.
Frankly, with respect, when we made our commitment in Rio in
1992 we really were not enough aware of what we had to do to
achieve our target.
We were not realistic at the time. We hope that through
negotiations with all our partners we can come to realistic,
achievable targets in Kyoto, Japan.
* * *
CANADIAN INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT AGENCY
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
used to be a teacher and I know a lot about doing homework. I
have done my homework today. I want to tell the House that if
any Liberals are convicted of influence peddling it is more than
the principal's office they are going to be heading to; that is
for sure.
It is an undisputed fact that the company of Raymond, Chabot
wrote cheques for $87,000 to the Liberal Party. It is also
undisputed that it received CIDA contracts for $20 million.
Let me ask a question of the minister of public works. Which
came first, the cash to the Liberals or the contracts from the
Liberals?
Hon. Diane Marleau (Minister for International Cooperation
and Minister responsible for Francophonie, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, is this the time for irresponsible innuendo from the
Reform Party? I believe it is.
I do not know that this question deserves an answer.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
hopefully this should be the time for a responsible government to
say what the responsibilities of government are and how some of
these crazy things are happening.
Last night at a Reform dinner people paid money, got a good meal
and a good speech. If it were a Liberal fund-raiser they would
have got a meal, a speech and a nice big juicy contract for
dessert.
Last night we were speaking to the national director of the
Liberals, Terry Mercer, who said that we could get the
information about the dates of these donations from Elections
Canada. They deny even having this information.
Let me ask the minister of public works again because it is
under his domain—
* * *
[Translation]
FRANCE-QUEBEC AGREEMENT ON COLLECTION OF SUPPORT PAYMENTS
Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire (Longueuil, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question
is for the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.
In the matter of the agreement between France and Canada on child
support payment enforcement, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs
interpreted France's consultation with the federal government as
repudiation. It is, however, nothing of the sort. It was part of the
usual process, and the French embassy confirmed that point very clearly.
I would like to know whether the Minister of Intergovernmental
Affairs realizes that he is on the wrong track and that by delaying the
approval of this agreement, he is hampering the efforts made by a number
of women to collect their child support payments from residents of
France?
1435
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
first of all, I wish to withdraw what I said earlier. I did not say that
the member for Beauharnois—Salaberry had not lied.
An hon. member: Answer the question.
Hon. Stéphane Dion: I will now answer the question. No foreign
government wants to find itself in a situation of having to reveal to
Canadian federal authorities the content of an agreement it is to sign
with a Canadian province. This, however, is the situation that Mr.
Bouchard's government placed France in, by refusing request after
request to inform us of the content of the agreement.
Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire (Longueuil, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the minister
should withdraw a number of words. On a whim, the minister is causing
women to suffer.
Will the minister admit that he is so keen to put the Government of
Quebec under the thumb of the federal government that he is making
flagrant errors of judgment by refusing to honour the commitment that
there would be no objection to the conclusion of an agreement between
France and Quebec?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we
have to come up with an agreement that provides Quebeckers with good
services.
Thus, with the aim of signing an enforceable agreement, which
therefore, in the opinion of both governments—the Canadian and the
French governments—must be done within the rules of the Canada-France
agreement, the Government of Quebec is invited to negotiate in good
faith with the Government of Canada.
* * *
[English]
ENVIRONMENT
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday the environment minister did not deny that the Kyoto
treaty would cost Canadians 10¢, 20¢ or 30¢ more per litre of
gasoline.
Today we would like the minister to tell Canadians how much more
they will be paying to heat their homes this winter. Will it be
$100, $200 or $300 more?
Hon. Christine Stewart (Minister of the Environment,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, to set the record straight, I said
nothing about what it would cost individual Canadians to deal
with this very important issue.
I did say that this is an issue when it comes to determining
measures that will be done in consultation with all key players
and the Canadian public. They will be aware of what is required
to meet our target.
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
this is exactly the problem. The government is saying nothing
about this issue.
The Liberal government will bankrupt Canadians with massive tax
grabs. We hear about dialogue with the provinces. Yes, the
provinces will sit at the table, but the minister has not
answered the question that has been asked four times in the
House.
Will she answer it now? Is the minister prepared to guarantee
that all provinces will be on side before the Liberal tax grab
treaty is signed in Kyoto?
Hon. Christine Stewart (Minister of the Environment,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my provincial counterparts are aware of
the fact that Canada is committed to legally binding targets in
Kyoto. They know that I am in dialogue with them.
There are opportunities associated with what Canada will do. I
would like to put another quote on the floor, this time from a
chief executive of General Motors who says “We at General Motors
are not afraid of a Kyoto summit. We welcome it because there
will be global dialogue on a global problem. That's good but it
means all of us have to sacrifice”.
* * *
[Translation]
TOBACCO LEGISLATION
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
because a government refused to listen to the Bloc Quebecois
members when its anti-tobacco legislation was being passed, it is
now in the process of compromising the survival of the Montreal
Grand Prix.
The clock is ticking for sports and cultural events, and I
would therefore ask the Minister of Health the following question:
When will his anti-tobacco legislation be amended? What are you
waiting for, Mr. Minister?
The Speaker: I would remind my colleagues to always address
the Chair.
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I
said last week, we are in the process of preparing an amendment to
the tobacco legislation. It is our intention to honour the
commitment we made several months ago, and the amendment will be
tabled when we are ready.
1440
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker, at
the present time, some major projects have been suspended at the
Montreal Grand Prix site and those involved say that the Grand Prix
will be finished, after 1998.
Does the minister realize that the delay resulting from his
inaction is causing irreparable damage to the survival of the
Montreal Grand Prix?
[English]
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
it is not helpful for the hon. member to put matters in those
terms. I assure him that I have been involved in careful and
methodical consultations with the people involved in Formula I in
the Grand Prix, and we intend fully to respect the commitment we
made some months ago. We will table the legislation when we are
in a position to do so.
* * *
JUSTICE
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday the solicitor general said that he is not running the
parole system. He later on said he is accountable for the
national parole system. Which is it?
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I appreciate very much not only the content but the tone
of the question.
The national parole board operates independently and at arm's
length from the government. The Government of Canada and the
solicitor general are accountable for the decisions but we do not
make them.
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, we
will give him another day to think about an answer to that one.
Yesterday the minister said the parole system is running itself,
that it is motivated by public interest and the interest of
public safety.
Could the minister please explain releasing Larry Takahashi, a
convicted serial rapist, when police are saying that he is a
significant danger to society. How in the world can he explain
that it is in the interest of public safety that he be released?
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it is in the interest of public safety to gradually in a
controlled way release inmates from the system, because the vast
majority of people leave the system. It is that simple.
The success rate in terms of recidivism is much better in the
case of a controlled and gradual release. That is a fact.
* * *
[Translation]
TOBACCO ACT
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of
Health cannot remain indifferent to the problems his anti-tobacco
legislation is causing promoters of cultural and sporting events in
Quebec, who have been left without a leg to stand on.
In light of the ambiguous statements made by the government during
the last election campaign, could the minister tell us whether the
changes to the anti-tobacco legislation promised by the Prime Minister
apply only to the Montreal Grand Prix or to all cultural and sporting
events jeopardized by this legislation?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, our
commitment is very clear. As stated in the letter sent out a few months
ago by the Minister of Health, we clearly committed ourselves to
introducing an amendment to the Tobacco Products Act to allow events
such as formula 1 racing to take place in Montreal. As I said, we are
fully aware of these commitments and intend to fulfil them.
* * *
[English]
CANADIAN ARMED FORCES
Mr. Pat O'Brien (London—Fanshawe, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of National Defence.
Recently a Bloc Quebecois member charged that the Department of
National Defence has not done a thing to recruit women. Will the
minister give us the facts? What steps is he taking to integrate
more women into the Canadian forces?
1445
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Department of National Defence and
the Canadian forces are committed to the elimination of any
discriminatory practices and attitudes. We are making
substantial progress.
We have implemented a number of measures, including Operation
Minerva, a series of nine initiatives instituted to increase
gender integration and awareness in the Canadian forces. We have
a gender integration committee of citizens to oversee this
matter; modifications to uniforms and equipment to improve
performance and comfort for women; the inclusion of integration
and—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Calgary Northeast.
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
while the defence minister is concentrating on Operation Minerva,
in this country some Canadian soldiers are already forced on to
the bread lines. Now the government is going to cut the support
program that pays for soldiers and their families to move by
one-half.
My question is a simple one. Why?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am sorry the hon. member makes light of
our gender integration policy. Let me say that there has been no
decision with respect to how budget cuts will be made. We are
implementing budget cuts, as are all departments and all parts of
the government, in order to get our fiscal house in order and get
into a balanced budget situation.
There are cuts that still have to be made in our department but
we have not made any decision as to where exactly we are going to
make those. Therefore he is far too premature in his assumption
as to where they are coming from.
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
soldiers and their families at the food banks, slashes to
training programs, old equipment and threats of more cuts; with
the morale in the forces already at an all time low, why is the
minister intent on demoralizing our troops even further?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, there are no new cuts. We are just
implementing the cuts that were made in previous budgets as a
result of the program review process. Those are still being
carried out and will be completed by next year.
There will be pay increases this year for the Canadian forces.
Many of the other issues in terms of the social and economic
needs of our forces and the quality of life issues they and their
families face are will be addressed. They are a high priority
with this government.
* * *
EDUCATION
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.
Today the Canadian Federation of Students and B.C.'s minister of
education joined forces to condemn schemes for income contingent
loans. As the minister is well aware, these schemes have nothing
to do with easing student debtload and everything to do with this
government's lack of commitment to funding post-secondary
education.
Will the minister once and for all reject income contingent
loans? Will the minister instead restore hope to Canada's youth
and commit to reducing—
The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Human Resources
Development.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I think the question has
been put in a rather irresponsible way. I am sorry to hear this
because this is a very serious issue. There are a lot of
students who like income related repayment as an option.
This government is acting in a responsible way. Right now we
are talking with all the provinces, the lenders and student
associations. We are going to provide as many options as
possible to help youth to go to university as long as possible.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, that is not
enough. It is blatantly obvious that the Liberals are not listening to
young Canadians. The despair felt by young people is real.
A survey today revealed that 78% of young Quebeckers believe
poverty has increased. Most of them even think that the situation will
continue to worsen.
Is this government prepared to invest in young people in this
country by making access to post-secondary education a national
priority?
In addition to setting objectives and creating jobs for young people,
will this government stop forcing them to eat Kraft dinners?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would first like to draw the member's attention to
the government's youth employment strategy, which is working very well
and which is beginning to produce some very interesting results.
1450
I cannot criticize the hon. member for not having been here when my
colleague, the Minister of Finance, tabled his latest budget, which
contained significant measures to encourage students and ease their
burden by extending the period for paying interests from 18 to 30 months
and offering greater possibilities for saving in this area.
We continue to work very hard. I am currently meeting with the
provinces and lenders, and we are working to give the students as many
options as possible.
* * *
[English]
JUSTICE
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the solicitor general.
Six years ago James Mills was murdered while in his own cell at
the Renous correctional facility in New Brunswick. Corrections
Canada officials came in, removed the body, cleaned up the cell,
then called the RCMP.
Because of that, for six years Mr. Mills has been haunted by
the loss of his son. He has been trying to get answers. He has
been trying to get justice, and he deserves it.
Will the minister, on behalf of the Mills family, take charge of
this situation, find a resolution for it and give the Mills
family a little piece of mind?
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I thank the member for his question. I know how deeply
he feels about this.
The member is aware, I believe, that arrangements have been made
for the commissioner of corrections to visit the region, to meet
with the family and also to meet with the member at the family's
request.
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr.
Speaker, I appreciate that effort but on two occasions now the
RCMP has recommended charges be laid. Nothing has happened.
After six years of investigation, two recommendations by the
RCMP, will the minister tell Mr. Mills why no charges have been
laid and what they are doing to get charges laid against the
people the RCMP said committed the crime?
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, again, I believe the meeting is scheduled for some time
next week.
It is the first time that the corrections service has been able
to reveal its report. Until this point, the RCMP was still
investigating.
* * *
VIOLENCE
Ms. Shaughnessy Cohen (Windsor—St. Clair, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the YWCA's Week Without Violence reminds Canadians of
this serious social problem.
Throughout Canada, agencies like Windsor's Hiatus House have
dedicated themselves to support for victims of violence. Can the
Minister of Justice tell us what steps the federal government is
taking to eradicate violence in Canada today?
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I acknowledge the YWCA for the
commencement last year of this very important week in Canadian
society.
This government has a comprehensive family violence initiative.
This initiative involves a number of departments in this
government, including the Department of Health, HRDC and my own.
To give a few examples of what the Department of Justice has
done in relation to violence against women, we have strengthened
the peace bond provisions, we have made spousal abuse an
aggravating factor in sentencing and we have strengthened—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Qu'Appelle.
* * *
BANKING
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Finance.
There is a letter in the Globe and Mail this morning from
a concerned citizen quoting a statement by Allan Taylor, CEO of
the Royal Bank of Canada.
Mr. Taylor referred to social spending in this country. He said
that any assistance that might be considered useful should be
willingly offered by the private sector.
In light of that, is the Minister of Finance willing to accept
this offer of Mr. Taylor and commit himself to working with the
banks to reduce service charges in this country that are such a
regressive burden on ordinary people?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Minister of Industry and I have on numerous
occasions met with the banks. We have discussed the issues of
service charges. We have looked at their adequacy. We have
looked at the loss provisions that are there, and it is something
we will continue to monitor.
Incidentally, Allan Taylor is no longer the president of the
Royal Bank.
* * *
[Translation]
FRANCE-QUEBEC AGREEMENT ON COLLECTION OF SUPPORT PAYMENTS
Hon. Jean J. Charest (Sherbrooke, PC): Mr. Speaker, my question is
for the Deputy Prime Minister, and it is in fact a different question.
Given the absurdity of the debate going on between the Canadian and
Quebec governments, at the expense of the children and women being held
hostage in this debate,
could the Deputy Prime Minister not ask the Prime Minister to phone the
Quebec premier himself to immediately settle the issue, so that children
and mothers are no longer caught in the middle of this absurd conflict
between the two levels of government?
1455
[English]
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, we have already invited the Government of Quebec to
meet with us so that we can clarify the text that could be signed
under the proper international conventions. If the Government of
Quebec is prepared to meet with me to work out the proper
wording, we can resolve the matter very quickly. All it requires
is an act of political will on behalf of the Government of
Quebec.
* * *
SMALL BUSINESS
Mr. Tony Ianno (Trinity—Spadina, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Industry.
Taking into account that this is national small business week
and there are 2.3 million small businesses creating many of
Canada's new jobs, what will the government do to facilitate the
commercialization of new technologies being developed by our many
innovative small and medium size businesses?
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I thank the member for the question highlighting the
important contribution that the small business sector is making
to the over one million jobs that have been created by the
private sector in Canada over the last four years. This becomes
particularly important in firms that we know are going to grow.
These are the firms that export to markets broader than their own
local markets and that adapt and use technology.
For that reason we have initiated a range of programs to support
their entry into foreign markets, to help them acquire and use
technology. We made an election commitment to increase the
funding available for the industrial research assistance program.
We will continue to support the efforts of small business.
* * *
WAR MEDALS
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
Colonel John McCrae was the World War I doctor who penned In
Flanders Fields.
The heritage minister has known for six weeks that his medals
were coming up for auction this Saturday. The medals have been
authenticated by many historical authorities. The people of
Canada have contributed over $25,000 to this.
I want to know from the government what specific steps it has
taken to ensure these medals end up in a Canadian war museum.
Hon. Hedy Fry (Secretary of State (Multiculturalism)(Status
of Women), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I reiterate that one must be
respectful to the family of Lieutenant-Colonel McCrae. In this
instance the family has questioned the medals. As a result we
are talking with the family and once those medals are
authenticated the Canadian government will do everything in its
power to ensure that those medals remain here and we will give
financial support.
* * *
[Translation]
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of National Defence.
Rumours are still circulating regarding the possibility that the
federal government will acquire British submarines for the Canadian
Forces.
Given the magnitude of such expenditures and the fact that they are
so hard to justify, will the minister tell us clearly, once and for all,
whether there is still a possibility that submarines will be bought for
the Canadian Forces?
[English]
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, no final decision has been made with
respect to acquisition of submarines. However, the matter is
being looked at very carefully. There are further discussions
which are now going on with the British with respect to the
matter, but no final decision has been made by the government.
* * *
NIGERIA
Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, two years ago
Nigeria's rulers killed Ken Saro-Wiwa and eight others. Canada
helped to suspend Nigeria from the Commonwealth.
The minister is now going to travel to the Commonwealth meetings
this weekend to ask it to extend the suspension. Everyone agrees
the suspensions have not worked.
At McGill last week the minister said that we may have to take
more coercive measures. What kind of coercive measures is the
minister talking about?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, during the past two years the Commonwealth
ministerial advisory group has worked very closely on the
Nigerian file. I am pleased to report to the House that we have
been able to arrive at a very clear consensus including counties
from all regions of the Commonwealth.
1500
A report has been prepared that will be presented to the heads
of Commonwealth during the Commonwealth meeting. The measures
being recommended, if accepted by the heads of government, will
provide the right and proper balance of measures which will bring
about the proper signal that we want to see democracy and human
rights restored in Nigeria.
* * *
PRESENCE IN GALLERY
The Speaker: I draw the attention of hon. members to
the presence in our gallery of members of the Standing Committee
of Internal Affairs of the German Bundestag.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
[Translation]
The Speaker:
I would also like to draw the attention of the House to the
presence in our gallery of Bernard Thériault, Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs in the Legislative Assembly of New
Brunswick.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
* * *
[English]
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
The Speaker: I propose to address myself to an
incident that occurred during question period. I am sure all
hon. members are aware that the give and take of question period
is rather accelerated these days. Most members seem to think
this is a good thing.
Also with the acceleration many times we do not always have a
chance to reflect upon the words we use. Sometimes words are
used in the course of the question period which border on being
unparliamentary. When that is the case I usually caution hon.
members to be very judicious in their choice of words.
From the chair I try to hear as much as I can and to see to it
that debate is carried on in an orderly fashion. Whereas some
words are borderline in my view and I use words like judicious
and cautious, there are some words that we cannot accept. Many
times these words are used in the heat of battle and after
reflection we find that perhaps we could have had a better choice
of words.
In this question period, probably because there was not enough
time to react or to think, one of our members used words which in
my view were unparliamentary.
1505
In trying to carry out a question period which is both
informative and at the same time gives us a chance to air our
questions properly, I hope all hon. members would agree that we
should use words that are more than anything parliamentary.
Had the hon. member for Beauharnois—Salaberry had a little more
time, he probably would have used words other than the ones he
used during the course of debate.
I can only deal with the words that I heard outright and I would
appeal to the hon. member for Beauharnois—Salaberry to withdraw
the words “il a menti”. If he would do that then we could get
on with the business of the House.
Would the hon. member please withdraw the words “il a menti”?
[Translation]
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I
would be quite prepared to withdraw these words, as long as I was
sure that the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs will also
withdraw his accusation that my leader had lied.
The Speaker: I understand, from his words, that the hon.
member for Beauharnois—Salaberry has withdrawn—
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Yvan Loubier: No, it is the one on the other side who must
withdraw his comments.
The Speaker: Dear colleagues, there is no question of setting
conditions. Again, I must ask my colleague, the hon. member for
Beauharnois-Salaberry—and, with all due respect, I hope his
answer will be a simple yes—whether or not he withdraws his
comments.
Mr. Daniel Turp: Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, I think it
would be completely responsible for the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs to withdraw the word he used.
[English]
The Speaker: I intend only to deal with one matter at a
time. I will deal with other matters which arose from question
period after I have dealt with this matter.
Without further discussion I once again appeal to the hon.
member to withdraw the words “il a menti”. I will deal with
other matters after I have dealt with this one.
It is a simple yes or no. Will the hon. member for
Beauharnois—Salaberry withdraw the words?
1510
[Translation]
Mr. Daniel Turp: Mr. Speaker, I withdraw my comments, and hope
that the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs will withdraw his.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
[English]
The Speaker: My colleagues, I always caution you that we
are dealing with the institution of Parliament.
The Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs is seeking the floor.
[Translation]
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I
am pleased to repeat what I said a moment ago: I did not say that
the hon. member did not lie.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
[English]
The Speaker: I have a transcript of what was said. It
would facilitate matters a great deal if the hon. minister would
simply withdraw the words. All I want is a yes or a no from the
hon. minister.
The hon. minister is said to have said:
[Translation]
<“I will not accuse the hon. member of lying, as the Leader of the
Bloc Quebecois is forever doing. I merely point out to him that he
is mistaken”.
I am simply asking the hon. minister if he withdraws these
words, yes or no?
Hon. Stéphane Dion: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I withdraw all these
words.
[English]
The Speaker: I think we have invested enough of the time
of the House in this interchange.
Does the hon. member have another point of order which does not
deal with this one?
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: Mr. Speaker, generally speaking, when
someone from the government side utters words he must withdraw, I
think it would be a much better idea if he were asked to withdraw
them immediately. Otherwise, we lose questions on this side of the
House.
[English]
The Speaker: Your Speaker always takes advice from his
colleagues. I will weigh all the advice that will be given to me
today.
I would now like to proceed to a question of privilege from the
hon. member for Yorkton—Melville.
* * *
1515
PRIVILEGE
AMENDING LEGISLATION
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton—Melville, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I rise again on three separate questions of privilege
arising from the question of privilege that I raised yesterday.
Yesterday when I raised my question of privilege the table
officers failed to follow the procedure of the House according to
Beauchesne's. Citation 116 of Beauchesne's Parliamentary
Rules and Forms, sixth edition, states:
Should a question of privilege be based on published material,
the article in question must be submitted and read at the Table.
Yesterday I asked: “I have a copy of this memorandum for the
Speaker. Does he want the article read now?”
Mr. Speaker, I am quoting from the blues because the official
Hansard record does not record my asking you this question
or your response. You responded, and again I quote from the
blues, “I would like to have the article brought to”, and so
on. Neither my question nor your response were included in the
Commons Debates for October 21, 1997.
My first question of privilege is to ask that the official
record of this House be amended to include my question and your
response. I cannot defend my rights and privileges as a member
in this House if the record does not accurately reflect what both
you and I said in the House.
My second question of privilege relates to the fact that the
memorandum which was delivered to you was not read as the
procedures of this House say it must be done. I will not go into
all the details here. I can explain it to you later. The record
shows that you accepted that my question was in fact a question
of privilege and only your ruling was held in abeyance.
The Speaker: I will review the blues and Hansard. I
will review all of the tapes and the television.
I did not say that you had a question of privilege, nor did I
intend to convey that. Because of what went on yesterday I
asked—and you seem to agree—that I would hold in abeyance any
action on this particular point of privilege until I had more
information which was going to be forthcoming from the Board of
Internal Economy.
On the points that you have brought up I will review
Hansard and the tapes, and if corrections are necessary I
will look into it.
As far as having a point of privilege at this point, I have not
made a decision as yet. I will make my decision when I get more
information. With respect to what you are bringing up now, if you
want me to rule on those points, being points of privilege, I
will do so.
Do you want me to rule now on whether those are points of
privilege or not?
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz: Mr. Speaker, I would seek your
wisdom on that. I can wait. I have not introduced my third
point.
The Speaker: I thank you. If you will wait until I get
more information, I will come back to the hon. member and he will
have a chance, if it is necessary, to bring forward any other
point that he wants. Does he agree to that?
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz: Mr. Speaker, I feel that my rights
and privileges need to be addressed as soon as possible.
With respect to the Board of Internal Economy, I do not think it
is their responsibility. It is your responsibility—
The Speaker: It is of course the responsibility of the
House in total to protect all the rights of members but it falls
to your Speaker to do that. I have undertaken to get back to you
at another time.
I will not rule on the point of privilege that you put before me
now. I would like you to hold off until we can come back.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
1520
[English]
ORDER IN COUNCIL APPOINTMENTS
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to table, in both official languages, a
number of Order in Council appointments which were made by the
government.
Pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 110(1) these are
deemed referred to the appropriate standing committees, a list of
which is attached.
* * *
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have the honour to present the fourth report of the Standing
Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding the selection
of votable items in accordance with Standing Order 92.
* * *
ACCESS TO INFORMATION ACT
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Ref.) moved for leave
to introduce Bill C-253, an act to amend the Access to
Information Act (disclosure of results of public opinion polls).
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is my privilege to introduce a bill
entitled an act to amend the Access to Information Act
(disclosure of results of public opinion polls). This bill
requires the government to make public any public opinion poll
commissioned by any department, branch, office, board, agency,
commission, corporation or other body established by Parliament
or by the governor in council.
Public opinion polls paid for with public money should be made
public. Governments in Canada have had a bad habit of being
secretive about the wrong things. Mr. Speaker, you will know
that it was not until the 1980s that Canada even had an access
to—
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
IMMIGRATION ACT
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Thunder Bay—Atikokan, Lib.) moved for
leave to introduce Bill C-254, an act to amend the Immigration
Act (reimbursement).
He said: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to introduce my private
member's bill entitled an act to amend the Immigration Act
regarding reimbursement.
The bill provides that a person is entitled to reimbursement of
the right of landing fee if the Minister of Citizenship and
Immigration is satisfied that the person resided elsewhere in
Canada than in a specified census metropolitan area between the
day the person was granted landing and the day the person
received a certificate of citizenship.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Ref.) moved for leave
to introduce Bill C-255, an act to amend the Criminal Code
(prohibited sexual acts).
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to reintroduce this
private member's bill in the House today. The bill would amend
the section of the Criminal Code dealing with prohibited sexual
acts with children under the age of 14 or in the presence of
children under the age of 14.
If implemented the bill would raise the age of a child as
defined for this purpose from the current age of 14 to 16 years
of age. In effect, the bill would allow for criminal charges to
be brought against any adult who engages in sexual relations with
a person younger than age 16.
1525
I urge all members of the House to seriously consider this bill,
its intent and purpose and to lend their support accordingly.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS ACT
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Ref.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-256, an act to amend the Statutory Instruments
Act (disallowance procedure for statutory instruments).
He said: Mr. Speaker, this bill would establish a statutory
disallowance procedure which does not exist at the moment. It
would allow for instruments subject to review and scrutiny by the
joint Standing Committee for the Scrutiny of Regulations to be
subject to legislative disallowance if the committee rules that
they should be disallowed.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
EMPLOYMENT EQUITY ACT
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Ref.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-257, an act to amend the Employment Equity Act
(elimination of designated groups and numerical goals) and the
Canadian Human Rights Act.
He said: Mr. Speaker, this bill amends the Employment Equity
Act, chapter 44 of 1995, to do as proposition 209 did recently in
California; that is, to remove the misguided Liberal concept of
state sanctioned and enforced employment based on race or gender
instead of qualifications for the job.
The people of Canada are way ahead of the House in recognizing
that the Employment Equity Act is undesirable and they want rid
of it.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby,
Ref.) moved for leave to introduce Bill C-258, an act to amend
the Criminal Code (judicial review).
He said: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the member for York
South—Weston introduced a private member's bill which would
repeal section 745 of the Criminal Code dealing with judicial
reviews of a life sentence for murder.
Today I have the privilege of introducing a similar bill with
one exception. It reads: “That the repeal of section 745 will
not be retroactive”. Previous attempts at repealing this
section raised constitutional argument. I think only bleeding
hearts and murderers want this clause.
An original advocate of the clause no longer has a seat in this
House. Warren Allmand is gone and so should section 745 of the
Criminal Code.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Before we get into
the next private member's bill, I would ask members, when they
are introducing their bills, to restrict their comments to the
content of the bill itself and leave any editorial comments for
debate.
* * *
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-259, an act to amend the Criminal Code (arrest
without warrant).
He said: Mr. Speaker, it gives me pleasure to reintroduce this
bill as I had done so in the last session.
1530
This bill basically is put together to give police the power
that they presently do not have to arrest a parolee who is in
obvious violation of his restrictions.
In other words, the police are telling me that when these
parolees are breaking their parole rules, the police have no
ability to prevent anything from happening because they do not
have that power. This bill will give them that power, a much
needed bill.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
YOUNG OFFENDERS ACT
Mr. Chuck Cadman (Surrey North, Ref.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-260, an act to amend the Young Offenders Act.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I would first like to thank my colleague
from Wild Rose for seconding this bill. I am privileged to
introduce a private member's bill which will amend the Young
Offenders Act to provide for a crown procedural option for anyone
who wilfully fails to comply with section 7 or with an
undertaking entered into pursuant to subsection 7.1(2).
At present, the punishment under section 7.2 of the Young
Offenders Act is limited to a range for summary conviction. This
bill will make the section a hybrid offence with imprisonment not
exceeding two years or punishable by summary conviction.
This minor amendment will place significantly more
responsibility on those persons who agree to ensure that young
offenders will abide with specific court conditions.
I look forward to debating this proposal in this place in the
very near future and I urge all members to give careful
consideration and support to this initiative.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
IMMIGRATION ACT
Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.)
moved for leave to introduce Bill C-261, an act to amend the
Immigration Act and the Criminal Code (refugee or immigrant
applicants convicted of an offence on indictment).
He said: Mr. Speaker, the enactment deals with persons who
commit offences in Canada while applying to remain in Canada as
refugees, or to come into or remain in Canada as immigrants.
It provides that a court that sentences such a person for an
indictable offence is empowered to order the person removed from
Canada. Such a person is not thereafter entitled to bail pending
an appeal or to be released in Canada by any form of early
release or unescorted temporary absence but may only be released
outside Canada.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.) moved for leave
to introduce Bill C-262, an act to amend the Criminal Code
(probation order).
He said: Mr. Speaker, this bill comes as a result of some
comments by a judge in my constituency. This judge is concerned
about the fact that he did not have any way of influencing
probation in future.
In other words, if the judge at the time of conviction believes
there should be certain terms and conditions applied to potential
parole, those should be taken into account at the time that
parole is considered.
In this way, the judgments of the court today will be taken into
account in the future and we will not end up with people feeling
that the courts are not really responsible. In fact, the
probation system is responsible for the ultimate disposition of
the criminal.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
1535
HOLIDAYS ACT
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.) moved for leave
to introduce Bill C-263, an act to amend the Holidays Act.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of the bill is to bring back
to Canada its original name, that being the Dominion of Canada.
We have lost too much of our heritage. The least we can do is to
return Canada Day to Dominion Day. Dominion Day is an entity of
Canada. Let us go back to our roots of the Dominion of Canada.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
PETITIONS
HUMAN RIGHTS
Mr. John Cannis (Scarborough Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36, I have the honour to present a
petition signed by 1,114 constituents and residents of the
surrounding areas.
These concerned individuals call on Parliament to enact
legislation in order to amend the Criminal Code, specifically
sections 173 (indecent acts) and section 174 (nudity) to clearly
state that a woman appearing topless in public places is an
indecent act.
Mr. John Finlay (Oxford, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to
Standing Order 36, I have a petition signed by 135 constituents
of Oxford who request that the Criminal Code be reviewed and
amended to correct and clarify the sections pertaining to public
nudity.
SEALS
Mr. John Duncan (Vancouver Island North, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I have a petition from the Courtenay area in my riding.
These members of the Fish and Protective Association want 40
problem seals culled from the Puntledge River due to their
predation of fish stocks.
The petitioners call on Parliament to advise DFO to implement
the original plan which would allow the local native band to cull
the 40 problem seals. This has the support of the majority of
the community.
The Fish and Protective Association obtained 2,300 signatures on
a separate petition to demonstrate support.
NATIONAL PARKS
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
have in hand 100 signatures of people who state that we, the
undersigned, the citizens of Canada, believe our national parks
belong to all Canadians with our first priority to ensure the
cost for Canadians and their families to use and enjoy the parks
remain affordable, draw to the attention of the House that we are
concerned about the increased entry fees to our parks.
There was a lack of public consultation on the new fee
structure. The petitioners believe the standard fee of $2 for
all passenger vehicles or $25 for a yearly pass should be set for
entry into all Canadian parks.
HUMAN RIGHTS
Mr. John O'Reilly (Victoria—Haliburton, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I have the pleasure to
present this petition regarding public nudity.
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Howard Hilstrom (Selkirk—Interlake, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to present two petitions signed by 100 of
my constituents in the Selkirk and Beausejour districts.
The petitioners ask this House to support Motion No. M-300 and
to retain section 43 of the Canadian Criminal Code. These
Canadian parents wish to ensure that Canada continues to
recognize the right and responsibility of parents to bring up
their children according to their own beliefs.
1540
GOODS AND SERVICES TAX
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
wish to present a petition pursuant to Standing Order 36. The
petition comes from the Christian Booksellers Association of
northern Alberta.
The petitioners say that we should not have to pay a tax to
read. They say that the GST is the first federal tax in Canadian
history to apply to the Bible and other reading material. They
say that taxing reading material is unfair and wrong, that
literacy and reading are critical to Canada's future and that
removing the GST from reading material would help to promote
literacy in Canada.
They urge Parliament to remove the GST from books, magazines and
newspapers, and they ask the Prime Minister to carry out his
party's repeated promise to remove federal sales tax from reading
materials.
Of course I would take it one step further. It seems to me, and
I was convinced, that they wanted to remove the GST, scrap, kill
it, abolish it from everything, so I think this would be a great
idea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The Chair will take
this opportunity to advise members that when they are presenting
petitions it would greatly help the Chair if everyone who wants
to present a petition would rise. That way we can spot members
and call them in some sort of order.
* * *
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I ask
that all questions be allowed to stand.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
* * *
MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I ask
that all notices of motions for the production of papers be
allowed to stand.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
WAYS AND MEANS
CUSTOMS
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (for the Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions, Lib.)) moved that a ways and means
motion respecting the imposition of duties of customs and other
taxes, to provide relief against the imposition of certain duties
and taxes and to provide for other related matters, be concurred
in.
An hon. member: On division.
(Motion agreed to)
* * *
CANADA CO-OPERATIVES ACT
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (for the Minister of Industry) moved
that Bill C-5, an act respecting cooperatives, be read the second
time and referred to a committee.
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to stand in the House
today to make some comments at the second reading stage of the
Canada co-operatives act.
This bill will help federally incorporated co-operatives to grow
and prosper here in our new competitive economic environment. As
members will know, I have been involved in the business of
farming all of my life. In my new role as minister of the crown
I wear a number of hats, including one with the word “co-op” on
it.
Co-operatives have made a tremendous contribution to Canada's
economic and social development and we must ensure that they
continue to do so.
1545
I express my appreciation to the Minister of Industry and his
departmental officials who were instrumental in shaping the
co-operative legislation before us today. Officials in our
respective departments worked closely in developing policy for
this legislation. They worked very closely as well with the
Canadian Co-operatives Association and Conseil canadien de la
Co-opération. These two organizations played a key role in the
development of the legislation.
I know from personal experience the importance of co-ops to the
lifeblood of the country. Four out of ten Canadians are members
of co-operatives, including credit unions and caisse populaires.
Co-operatives are an important vehicle for community based
economic development. They are locally based and provide
services locally. With so many co-operatives located in rural
communities, the co-operative sector has a very significant role
to play in maintaining and enhancing the quality of rural life.
Co-operatives emerged first in rural communities in response to
an inadequate supply of goods and services at affordable prices.
Agricultural producers used the co-operative model to market and
process their production.
Stimulated by European immigrants, co-operative creameries were
founded and formed by dairy farmers in the maritimes, Quebec and
Ontario in the 1870s and 1880s. Co-operatives have been around
for a long time.
In western Canada the first co-operatives were formed at the
beginning of the century by agricultural producers influenced by
American co-operative leaders. Today the biggest non-financial
co-operatives in Canada in terms of revenues are agricultural
co-operatives. In 1996 eight of them had revenues greater than
$1 billion. It has been estimated that co-operatives account for
47% of the market share for poultry, 57% for milk and 59% for
grains.
With industrialization people from rural communities across
Canada moved to urban areas and brought with them to the urban
areas their institutions including co-operatives. Today a
majority of co-operatives are located in urban areas. These
include housing co-operatives and credit unions.
Over all Canada's 10,000 co-ops employ about 136,000 people,
with total assets of more than $155 billion. Co-operatives are a
potent force across a wide range of economic sectors from
agriculture and fishing to housing, to retailing, to public
services.
Many co-operatives are governed by provincial law, but 50
co-operatives under federal jurisdiction conduct business in more
than one province and are among the largest co-operatives in the
country.
The grassroots partnership inherent in co-operatives can play a
major part in achieving genuine lasting economic growth in our
cities and in our rural communities. Co-ops are major economic
engines in Canada with the top 50 co-operatives increasing their
workforce by 5% in 1995. The co-operative movement reaches into
every sector of the Canadian economy. Consumer co-operatives,
mainly retail enterprises, had more than three million members
and $6.4 billion in revenue in 1995.
Perhaps more important the co-operative movement is tightly
woven into the social fabric of the country. For example,
service co-operatives are a growing part of Canadian communities
in the areas of child care, housing, health, community
development, fine arts and cultural services.
Worker co-operatives, mainly small and medium size enterprises,
are becoming well established and give Canadians more control
over their jobs and an opportunity to open viable businesses. In
some cases they have helped keep business ventures alive in the
face of closures or layoffs.
Another example is aboriginal co-operatives which have played an
important role in the economic development of native communities.
With more than 20,000 members they are the second largest source
of employment in the north after government.
The legislation before the House today provides co-operatives
with the tools they need to continue their long history of
contributing to the economic and social make-up of Canada. Under
the revamped legislation co-operatives would be given a
modernized framework similar to the legislation governing other
federal corporate and financial institutions and eliminating
needless red tape.
For example, incorporation procedures would provide for an
approach closer to the Canada Business Corporations Act. Under
this new co-operative legislation, however, enterprises would
have to certify that they operate on a co-operative bases.
1550
Co-operatives will be better equipped to compete with other
businesses by having more flexibility in the make-up of their
boards of directors. They will also have new opportunities to
raise capital.
Under the new legislation a co-op will be able to issue
investment shares to non-members. This will allow co-operatives
better access to equity financing while maintaining control of
co-operatives in the hands of its members.
Putting co-operatives on an equal footing with business
corporations through modernized corporate governance rules
requires a strengthening of co-operative principles in the
legislation. Co-operatives unite voluntarily and pool their
resources in pursuit of common economic interests.
They embrace co-operative principles which centre around
concepts of democratic control, equality, equity, education and
concern for community. The decisions of co-operatives reflect
the interest of the communities in which they operate.
These essential features will be strengthened and enshrined by
reinforcing the requirement that a co-operative must be organized
and operated on a co-operative basis.
Co-operatives are a powerful form of business organization which
contributes in a very significant way to economic growth, job
creation and prosperity of communities across the country.
Modernized legislation will equip these co-operatives with the
legislative and regulatory authority needed to take advantage of
options designed to strengthen their ability to prosper and grow
in an evolving economy.
Co-operatives have already made an important contribution to
rural Canada and to the economic renewal of our rural
communities. This is a key priority of the government, a
commitment we have been delivering on since we took office.
We are helping rural Canadians access information technologies
and the information needed to develop a vibrant, self-reliant and
innovative business sector. In part this is to provide rural
Canada with the tools it needs to take greater charge of its
future. A new Canadian co-operatives act is another important
tool to help make that happen.
Co-operatives will continue to play an important role in
promoting jobs and growth in the future as they have in the past.
For my part I intend to be a strong and effective voice for the
co-operatives sector in the federal cabinet and to do all that I
can do within my department and my jurisdiction to help position
this sector for sustained growth into the next century.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Before we resume
debate, by agreement the House leaders made it possible for the
hon. member for Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre to speak next. We
would then go back to the regular rotation.
Mr. Bob Kilger (Stormont—Dundas, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise on a point of order. In the spirit of co-operation the
member for Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre will have the normal
allocation of time that he would have if he was in his normal
place of rotation, which would be 20 and 10. The spokespersons
for the official opposition and the Bloc would retain their 40
minute allocation in their usual rotation.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The Chair thanks the
the government whip for clarifying the situation.
Mr. John Solomon (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I am very please to say a few words about Bill C-5.
It is quite fitting that we were speaking about co-ops. In the
spirit of co-operation I express my appreciation to the Reform
Party, the Bloc Quebecois and the Liberal Party for allowing me
to speak first due to a prior commitment.
I also express my appreciation to the leader of the New
Democratic Party for assigning me the critic areas of small
business, western economic diversification and co-ops. All these
areas are of great interest to me. I have been a business person
and a member of the co-op and credit union movement for 27 or 28
years. That is a long time for a young person like me. Of
course I joined the credit union and co-operative movement many
years ago.
Bill C-5, an act respecting co-operatives, is the reincarnation
of Bill C-91, tabled in March this year, which died on the order
paper with the dissolution of parliament.
1555
Its reintroduction this fall marks another accomplishment in a
very active year for the co-op movement in Canada, one in which
we celebrate the 10th anniversary of the Canadian Co-Operative
Association founded by the former Co-operative College of Canada,
which was very prominent in the province of Saskatchewan, and the
Co-operative Union of Canada on September 24, 1987.
Also this spring in the Saskatchewan budget the NDP government
of Roy Romanow announced significant new resources and a new
focus on co-op economic development after some months of
consultation and work with the co-op movement in Saskatchewan.
This summer in Vancouver the World Council of Credit Unions
recognized the Canadian Co-operative Association for its
outstanding work in assisting in the development of credit unions
around the world.
As the minister stated, 14 million Canadians are members of a
co-op, a credit union or a caisse populaire. Some 10,000 co-ops
in Canada employ about 135,000 workers often in regions of the
country or economic sectors that have been ignored by the
traditional market economy.
Some producer and marketing co-operatives have been very
successful. Some 17 of the top 500 revenue producing companies
in Canada are registered as co-ops. In 1995, 617,000 people
belonged to agricultural co-ops alone. They are very significant
players in the economy.
These 617,000 people in agricultural co-ops generated $16
billion in sales and handled 40% of total farm cash receipts in
the areas of grains, oilseeds, dairy products, eggs and poultry,
livestock, fruits and vegetables.
Co-ops also make a contribution to their communities inspired by
unique needs identified in the far corners of our country. Many
members will acknowledge, as we do in Saskatchewan, that the
co-op sector is one of the three major engines which drive our
economy: the private sector, the public sector and the co-op
sector.
We have always used the co-op sector in western Canada and other
parts of the country as an instrument to achieve economic
objectives where the private and the public sectors have failed
or were not interested in pursuing those objectives in those
areas.
I am very proud that we are dealing with the issue today and
providing the co-ops in many ways with the modern instruments and
utensils they require to meet the modern challenges facing us.
I raise some examples of co-ops. The Co-op Radio in Restigouche
provides radio service in French for Acadians and local
employment for northern New Brunswick. A co-op named Imagine
That, an artists' marketing co-op in Duncan, B.C., helps local
artisans sell their work to the growing tourist markets on
Vancouver Island.
Arctic co-operatives work to meet the challenges of a remote
economy and marketplace that exist north of the 60th parallel.
The Mountain Equipment Co-op, started by a group of university
students, has grown into a successful and popular consumer retail
co-op operating in four of the country's largest cities.
Prairie Dog Alternative News in my home town of Regina is
providing an alternative voice to the mainstream media. Its
ownership is growing more concentrated by the year. We are very
pleased to see that alternative prosper in Regina, Saskatchewan.
One of the two provinces where co-ops have been most at home is
my home province of Saskatchewan. The other is Quebec. The
Saskatchewan Wheat Pool founded by farmers in 1924 has grown into
one of the largest grain handlers and agricultural co-ops in the
entire world with annual sales in 1996 of $3 billion and gross
revenues in the order of $4.24 billion, up from $2.8 billion just
two years ago.
The Saskatchewan Wheat Pool is the largest co-op in Canada,
followed by Federated Co-ops in Saskatoon. The Saskatchewan
Wheat Pool is also the biggest corporation by sales in the
province of Saskatchewan and the 35th largest company by revenue
in the entire country.
As I said, the extent to which the co-op sector contributes to
economic development in our country may be unappreciated by the
general population. As one of the three engines it is a very key
sector.
The contribution of the co-op sector has always been well
understood in my home province of Saskatchewan and has certainly
been appreciated by the New Democratic Party and our predecessor,
the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation.
In particular I extend our congratulations on the occasion of
National Co-op Week held just last week and International Credit
Union Day held on October 16.
Bill C-5 represents quite an accomplishment for the co-op sector
in Canada and puts it on the leading edge internationally. In
1996 the Canadian Co-operative Association, in co-operation with
the conseil canadien de la coopération, presented a model bill to
the federal government intended to update federal legislation
regulating co-ops.
1600
The Canadian Co-operative Associations Act, 1970 is thus
receiving its first overhaul in almost 30 years and the resulting
statute will in all likelihood serve as a model for coming
changes in provincial statutory regimes for the co-op sector in
years to come.
The two main thrusts of the bill are to offer some
flexible financial alternatives to co-operatives so they can
continue to operate successfully in the modern competitive global
marketplace and at the same time to provide work to
strengthen the cornerstone of the co-op sector's vitality, which
of course is the rights of its individual members.
The federal statute applies to non-financial co-ops operating in
more than one province. Only 51 of the 7,300 non-financial co-ops
in Canada are affected, but some of them are the largest in the
country. It modernizes the regulatory framework for
incorporation, structure and organization of co-ops and permits
co-ops to issue investment equity for the first time in order to
tap new resources and new sources of capital. It also
incorporates the revamped 1995 International Co-operative
Alliance statement of co-operative principles into an updated
definition of what makes an organization a co-op under the act.
Finally, a number of requirements have been modified to
modernize the corporate statute law for co-operatives that are
federally registered, and this complies with the Corporations Act
in many respects.
As spokesperson for co-ops in the NDP I met with a number of
officials with respect to this issue, Industry Canada, the
co-operative secretariat at agriculture Canada. I have had
consultations with the Canadian Co-operative Association, with
prairie pools, with Federated Co-ops of Saskatchewan, with the
president of the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool, Leroy Larson,
representatives of the Alberta Wheat Pool and the Sherwood Co-op,
among many others.
However, some sectors of the co-op movement, in particular in
Atlantic Canada and some of the smaller co-ops in Saskatchewan,
are not in full support of this bill. The differences exist
between the smaller co-ops that support the traditional service
to members co-op model and the larger co-ops that support the
business model of co-ops.
When the bill is referred to committee, which we support, these
issues have to be vetted, discussed and heard by the committee
members. The NDP requests of the minister that the committee
invite witnesses from both viewpoints so that we can understand
more fully the differences they have with respect to this bill.
No doubt we will hear more detailed views at that time.
I take this opportunity to acknowledge the vitality and maturity
of the co-op sector of our economy and to recognize the active
contribution co-op employees and members make to our communities.
On behalf of the New Democratic Party caucus I am pleased to
offer support for referring this bill to committee for further
review.
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
before I address Bill C-5 I would like to encourage all occupants
of the chair to continue to maintain the decorum that we have had
in the House and continue to set the high standard that you are.
I would even encourage you to elevate this standard as need be.
So please pass those comments on.
As I understand Bill C-5 this bill was actually prompted by the
co-operative associations themselves. They recognized the need
for change in its industry. They recognized the need to be
increasingly competitive. They are competing against larger
entities with smaller management hierarchies, with less
bureaucracy. They are competing with large entities that are very
customer focused and front line driven. They have to achieve
some measure of increased efficiency if they are to survive.
They also realized they needed access to investment, investment
dollars and capital. They also realized that in order to
eliminate some of their redundancies in their operations they had
to amalgamate, consolidate and knit themselves together so they
could be more efficient to survive.
The co-operatives through all of this were dealing with reality.
I want to speak about dealing with reality for a minute. I would
really like to encourage our government today to take a lesson
from what the co-operatives have been doing and start dealing
with reality.
1605
Recently the finance minister toured the country celebrating
that soon we would have a balanced budget. It is wonderful to
celebrate that, but it has been more than 27 years coming.
He presents it as if we are there, we have arrived, everything
has been done. He is not dealing with reality. We have
a $600 billion debt in this county and many of us do not realize
it but we are sitting on an interest rate time bomb that could go
off at any minute.
I can remember a day in Canada when interest rates were almost
20%. When they came back down to 12%, we all breathed a sigh of
relief. We have a debt that has an interest rate of around 7% or
8%.
I think the likelihood of those interest rates going down is
very small. The potential for them to go up is real. I read
recently that there is already pressure to move in that
direction.
Here we are celebrating almost having a balanced budget and yet
we are sitting on an interest rate time bomb that could blow away
that balanced budget in a second and we will never see the days
of surplus. But we are not dealing with reality. We are
celebrating an almost balanced budget.
How much is the interest on a $600 billion debt? It is $45
billion a year. How much is that? I cannot conceive of that
much money but let us put it into perspective so that Canadians
can understand.
We talk so much about the importance of secondary education.
Forty-five billion dollars would pay for 4 million young people
to go through a four year degree program. That is how much that
is and we pay that out in interest every year.
We talk about the need for health care. There is a lot of talk
from the other side of the House about how we do not want two
tier health care. The best way to achieve that is to make sure
there is a very strong basic health care system.
Forty-five billion dollars in interest on this huge debt, if we
did not have to pay that, that amount of money would pay for
every hospital in Canada including the ones that are being forced
to close to operate for two years.
That is how much this is costing us, yet do we have a government
that is dealing with reality like the co-ops are? No, we get a
throne speech with 29 new spending initiatives. I heard lately it
is 31.
Canadians are crying out for less government, not more
government. We are asking the government across the floor to
hear this.
There is something else that the co-operatives demonstrated.
They demonstrated they have the ability to plan for the future.
They realize that they need to gain capital so that they can
build a secure future for themselves.
The government should allow Canadians the same privilege. Again
I do not see it listening. Instead, what do we get? We get a
Canada pension plan that has been there for 30 years that people
have been paying into for 30 years. Where is the money? Nobody
seems to know where it is.
The money that goes into that plan by young people and people
working today is the same money that goes out of that plan to
people who are collecting. It is a flowthrough system. There is
no pot of money available. There is a $560 billion unfunded
liability there. It is a flowthrough system.
Canadians are even losing faith in this system. For all the
great rhetoric we are getting from across the floor, a recent
study done in Maclean's magazine showed that 66% of
Canadians said this program will not be there when they need it.
They have lost faith in this program. What is the government's
answer? Its answer is to give us more of a plan that did not
work, not just a bit more but 73% more.
1610
It will go from taking 5.85% from our cheques to 9.9%,
effectively 10%. That is a 73% increase in a plan that has
proven to not work. That is the largest tax increase we have
seen. That is 10% off the income of every Canadian, your money
flowing into a system that does not work.
What troubles me about this on top of everything else is that
the young people of our country who have become trained and are
eager to work and build a future for themselves are faced with
16% to 17% unemployment. We have a government that increases
payroll taxes by 73%, further shortcircuiting the chance for
these young Canadians to build a future in Canada.
The government has an answer for us. The answer is another
government appointed investment board to manage the money that is
contributed. If it is consistent with the track record of most
government appointed investment boards, I can see why Canadians
do not have much faith in it.
The question that should be asked by the members on the opposite
side is whose money is this. This money is earned by Canadians.
It is not a tax. It is meant to be there when they need it at
retirement age. Let them own it and manage it. Within
successful private financial institutions that are professionals
at managing money, they cannot do worse than the government has
done in the last 30 years. It is not possible to do worse than
that. Even modest evaluations with conservative interest rates
prove out that there is a three to fourfold greater benefit
derived by going through private institutions than going through
a government run investment board, taking the critical moneys
that Canadians earn and further shortcircuiting the hopes of our
young people to obtain a job in this country.
The concept of Canadians owning their own investment plan,
owning their own pension plan, having title to it, is not
something radical or unheard of. This concept is being applied
around the world with outstanding success. Countries and
governments are allowing their citizens to plan for their future,
like the co-operatives are doing.
I am asking the government to allow Canadians to do the same
thing instead of going back to a plan that does not work.
There is another dimension of the co-operatives bill. The
co-operative management group had the foresight to implement
measures with this bill that will protect it and allow it to
survive in the long term. That seems like a reasonable thing for
Canadians to expect from their government. That is continually
what the government says it wants to do and yet we continue to be
faced with too much government, too much intrusion in our lives,
huge debt and huge interest rates, as I have spoken to.
We have the highest tax to GDP ratio of any of the G-7
countries, and the government comes back with 29 new spending
initiatives on top of all that. Even as I speak it in this House
I am overwhelmed again with the facts. Surely the light is going
to come on one of these days.
Ten per cent off every paycheque of every Canadian, another
government appointed board, the litany goes on and on. Behind
all this, as we are celebrating a balanced budget finally
wrestled to the ground, there are some facts to be looked at.
1615
The $7.5 billion that went toward balancing the budget was
actually a surplus paid into the unemployment insurance program.
It is not really savings. It is intended for a totally different
purpose but has gone off somewhere else. It is misleading
Canadian people.
The youth unemployment rate is 16.5%. Today I was at a
presentation for some gentlemen who were receiving the Order of
Canada. I had the opportunity to talk to one senior scientist
being recognized about his son who had recently graduated with an
honours engineering degree and sought work in Canada.
We have all heard the story. Members know where I am going and
where he went. He left Canada to get a real job, not a
government job, because he could not get one here. This
passionate Canadian who received the Order of Canada was hurt
that his own son could not apply what he had learned in Canada.
Brain drain to the max, and it is happening.
It is not more government we need. Canadians are burdened with
government, taxes and all that comes with them. They are
carrying a heavy load. Canadians are a stoic bunch. We tend not
to be complainers. We tend to buck up and do it. We have a
government that continues to take another brick and put it on top
of the load. It continues to weigh us down one more brick at a
time, one more brick at a time.
I do not want to depress everybody here although this is a
depressing topic. I want to give Canadians some hope and to
inspire members across the floor. There is a bright note in all
this. The government actually listened to the co-operatives when
they came forward and said what they needed. The government
actually listened and put together the bill. That proves to me
when the heart is willing and they really want to do it Liberals
can listen. They allowed co-ops to plan for their future.
Along with the members of my party I am earnestly requesting the
government to do the same for Canadians. It should deal with
reality and the realities of the debt. It should allow Canadians
to plan for the future and to keep the money they have earned. It
is their money. Let us emphasize that. It should set us on the
road to long term viability and allow for an environment where
young people can hope for real employment in their own country.
Canadians do not want more tax and spend governments. They want
a government that does a few key, important things well for less
cost instead of a lot of things poorly at great expense. It is
simple. That is what they are pleading for and demanding. It
should stop crushing them with the weight of government adding
bricks to the load.
The government has demonstrated that it can listen. It should
now listen to Canadians, listen and deal with reality. We have
waited too long. It is almost too late. It is a critical time.
We have a window of opportunity today to make changes but it is
only here today.
I encourage all members of the House to deal with the realities
and capitalize on the window of opportunity. Whatever we do let
us not miss it or future generations will judge us and indict us.
1620
[Translation]
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, may I
congratulate you on your appointment.
We are here today to speak on the second reading of Bill C-5,
Bill C-91 in the last Parliament. This is a bill which completely
revises the federal legislation on co-operatives, at the request of
the Canadian Council for Co-operatives and its francophone
counterpart.
I would like to start by pointing out that only 50
co-operatives are registered under federal charter. A large number
of these, however, are extremely important ones, which specialize
in the production and distribution of grain.
In Quebec, and I think it is important to point this out, there are
only six federally chartered co-operatives, which are of different
sizes.
Some people may wonder what we in Quebec have to say about
this bill. The same thing, basically, as the representatives of
other parts of Canada, because this bill, while affecting only a
few co-operatives directly, can affect the entire Quebec co-operative
movement indirectly.
In Quebec there is a Conseil québécois des co-opératives, which
is part of the Conseil francophone and which, after some
negotiations I would say, gave its support to the reform proposed
by the Canadian Council. I must point out that, on Bill C-91, some
of the demands by the Quebec council were accepted, while others
were not. Nevertheless, the Conseil endorsed the bill on behalf of
its entire membership.
Still, as the NDP member pointed out, while the bill does not directly
affect co-operatives, it creates problems for a number of them—and I
will try to explain why—in terms of its possible influence.
One may wonder why it was necessary to review, to modernize the
federal legislation on co-operatives.
In Quebec, the provincial government just modernized the
co-operatives act. The same thing is being done in Canada and it has also
been done in recent years in other countries where co-ops are important
institutions. Why? Because of the changes affecting markets, because of
globalization and the stiff competition often faced by co-ops,
particularly those that are key players.
In Quebec, these key players include the Nutrinor agri-food coop,
which is fairly big but not as big as Agropur, the 53rd largest business
in Quebec, and much smaller than La Co-opérative fédérée de Québec, which
ranks 19th among the province's businesses.
Although the bill does not deal with financial coops, I take this
opportunity to say that the Mouvement Desjardins would be number one in
Quebec, with assets of $82 billion.
Businesses located in Quebec and governed by a federal charter must
have some leeway to face new market conditions.
1625
However, we can understand that in doing so co-operatives sometimes
give rise to vigorous debate among their members, among the various
types of co-operatives, because some people wonder whether, through
better financing, by a turning profit in a co-operative fashion and
selling shares on a market, that is, a sort of stock, whether they are
not selling their soul. This debate goes on among the big co-operatives
and between them and others operating in the service industry.
This should be pointed out, because the criticism I will make is in
the context of full support for the bill. However, during committee
work, we will express concerns, and move amendments on a number of
specific points.
Co-operatives, I must point out, are vital in Quebec. When we look
at Canada's history we see they are vital in western Canada as well and
that their emergence showed the producers were taking control of their
future rather than leave it to capitalist development, which, at the
time, was largely unregulated. It is therefore a means of taking of
control and the sign of an economy more collectively oriented and yet a
strong market player.
In Quebec, this truth goes hand in hand with the fact that
co-operatives have given Quebeckers control over a large part of their
economy.
When we put this in a historical context, it takes on proportions even
broader than those in the west of Canada, because there is not only the
context of social ownership, but also of Quebec ownership as opposed to
foreign ownership. This explains the importance we give to having rules
for the co-operative movement and consolidated legislation that
underscores these principles.
There are various types of co-operatives. Some may be threatened
by the new principles appearing in Bill C-5. In addition to
grain, meat or agricultural production co-operatives, which bring
producers together, there are also family investment
co-operatives, student co-operatives—and there are many
flourishing ones in Quebec as young people learn to build
financial strength by using their purchasing power—and there are
increasing numbers of co-operatives in new areas as well.
There are some in the Montreal area, and no doubt elsewhere, in the
new field of electronics; one will be known as “La Puce”, another
will make it possible to offer Internet sites to all community
organizations in the Montreal area with large servers.
It is therefore an area of high activity as far as sectors in
the new economy are concerned, but the service sector is also
represented, with housing and consumer co-operatives. Finally, I
have not mentioned workers' co-operatives, which also operate on
different principles.
So these various kinds of co-operative operate on co-operative
principles having to do with the various aspects of pooling capital
and, in the case of workers, pooling the activities of an
enterprise supplying work. Therefore, even if the new principles
in Bill C-5 do not affect them directly, they may be a cause of
concern for these different kinds of co-operative that wish to
continue to operate on a co-operative basis.
1630
Having done a little research, I must point out that, in the
various countries modernizing co-operative legislation, there are
three approaches. The first is to go with values, but this poses
a problem because it depends on the kind of co-operative involved.
The second approach is to be pragmatic, but this raises concerns,
and I am be inclined to think that Bill C-5 falls into this
category. The third approach is systemic and tries to respect the
inherent logic behind the various co-operative principles as
implemented in co-operatives.
What are the stumbling blocks in Bill C-5?
Once again, I repeat that, overall, the Bloc Quebecois and the
Conseil québécois des co-opératives are in agreement with the bill
as it stands. But a few problems remain.
First of all, the major stumbling block, and I will conclude
with this, is that this bill, the Canada Co-operatives Act, is
modelled on the Canada Business Corporations Act. This raises a
structural problem, because a co-operative is community owned. A
member of a co-operative does not own a share in the co-operative
that he may sell as he wishes to whom he wishes. One cannot
therefore say that one is going to buy a share in a co-operative and
be a member of the co-operative. That is not how it works.
If co-operatives are successful, it is because they let it be known that
they intend to be consumer, producer or worker co-operatives, so they
issue shares, which is why people then meet to achieve a common purpose
stated in their bylaws. That is what co-operative officials' performance
for instance is assessed against by their members.
Co-operative members hold shares that they can sell back to the
cooperative and the co-operative only. They are not free to sell their
shares to whomsoever they wish; it is up to the co-operative to decide
who will be allowed to join. This is a far cry from a business
corporation.
Since the entire legislation is modelled on the Canada Business
Corporations Act, it is understandable that, even if an effort was made
to adapt the spirit of the law, the corporations act sometimes shows
through.
As I said, I do realize that the intent was to update the Canada
Cooperatives Act and enable co-operatives to secure new capital on the
market, without interfering with the spirit of the legislation.
So, this is the first major flaw, as far as I could see—I
perused this very thick bill and checked also with others and these are
the problems we found—in fact, the Conseil québécois des co-opératives
even had a question about this—under the charter, co-operatives are
not required by law to disclose for what purpose they were established.
This is a very serious problem because, for one thing, how can members
be asked to use the services provided by their co-operative if these can
change?
1635
No doubt there is room for improvement. An improvement that
could, one might say, be made fairly easily. The reasons for the
refusal to do so remain to be seen.
The bill also contains some worrisome elements. For example
clause 4, where once again the spirit is really that of a
corporation, where control is defined as going to the person with
control of 50% of the votes. In my opinion, one shared by all
those I spoke to about this, this is incompatible with the
co-operative spirit. This ia one example, but I will not go through
the entire bill because it is a very long one.
Before Bill C-91, fears were expressed concerning the proposal
made by the minister of the time, to the effect that co-operatives
in Quebec, as in the other provinces, could choose to be registered
under either a Quebec or a federal charter. This problem has been
corrected in this bill, and a co-operative must, in order to be
federally chartered, carry out business in more than one province
and have offices in more than one.
This allows me to say that, given the rapidly changing
markets, co-operatives can make acquisitions and find themselves in
a position to be able to use the federal charter, hence the
importance of taking the necessary time to study the wording.
The two clauses that are the most serious grounds for concern
are, however, those which deal with reserve splitting during the
lifetime of a co-operative. This is, one might say, hard to
understand. It could open the door to all sorts of abuse.
I know that the response will be that this bill is an enabling one.
That means that the co-operatives are not obliged to use all of the
clauses, except that the bill, or the act, cannot be a sort of
self-serve affair, either, where one helps oneself to the elements
one wants; it cannot be like that without a real danger of moving
away from the co-operative spirit.
I know that the answer may be “But the co-operative movement
itself will protect the co-operative spirit”. But it is hard to
create the conditions that would allow that to be changed and then
to say that it is up to the co-operative movement to do what has to
be done.
Another important provision stipulates that only two thirds of the
board will be made up of members, which could mean that 20%, if not
more, of the board's membership would have investment shares. The danger
would then be that decisions would not be made by members but by—shall
we say—major investors.
Another provision of the bill seeks to counter such an effect, but
it remains to be seen whether it is adequate. In fact, the principle
underlying the whole notion of co-operatives is that members must have
control over major decisions, and that co-operatives must know what their
mandate is.
1640
The committee has its work cut out. Hopefully, it will have the
time required to do it.
We agree that the legislation must be updated. Quebec has done it.
I imagine the other provinces have also done it or will do it. Other
countries have done it. It is not an easy task, given the rapid changes
occurring in the market and the very stiff competition major
co-operatives must face. Still, we should not throw the baby out with the
bath water.
When we hear those who can help us deal with the issue, we will
have to make sure the bill does not weaken but strengthens the
co-operative movement, which is so greatly needed in Quebec and in
Canada.
I am convinced that co-operativess, as well as the Conseil
québécois, as well as various professors—there are two chairs on
co-operation in Montreal—will be pleased to provide advice to us, as
they did when the Quebec government updated its legislation.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): It is my duty
pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the
questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as
follows: the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, Health; the
hon. member for Prince Albert, Aboriginal Affairs; the hon.
member for Oakville, International Trade.
By agreement with the Conservative Party and the Reform Party
they will switch their time slots, so we will recognize the hon.
member for Surrey Central. We will then go to the Liberal side
and then back to this side.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
am proud to rise today on behalf of the constituents of Surrey
Central to declare our support for Bill C-5, the government's
proposed legislation is to replace the Canada Cooperative
Associations Act.
The proposed legislation, to be known as the Canada co-operatives
act, promises to be a helpful piece of legislation. All sides of
the House of Commons in the 36th Parliament should be proud to
support this bill.
I have some previous experience with co-operatives in Canada. I
am a former director of the second largest credit union in
Canada. The successful story of that credit union is a fine
example of Canadian co-operatives. It was the very first credit
union in Canada to be placed for public trading on the Toronto
Stock Exchange.
Bill C-5 is a legislative proposal prompted by a request from
the Canadian Cooperatives Association to the federal government
to update the current legislation affecting co-operatives in
Canada. The association made specific recommendations as to what
it needed in the bill. Bill C-5 contains the recommendations
which the industry requested.
Bill C-5 will modernize the legislation affecting co-operatives
in Canada. This bill will provide the financing tools the sector
needs to compete effectively. It will strengthen this vital
component of the Canadian economy.
The definitions in the legislation affecting Canadian
co-operatives will be broadened by Bill C-5 so that current
policies, practices, values and principles in this sector of our economy
are reflected in the legislation governing it.
For example, co-operatives will be allowed to access capital
markets directly. Co-operatives will continue to be able to
raise capital from their members.
But also with the passing of Bill C-5 into law they will have
access to the financial markets.
1645
Co-operatives will be able to recruit directors from outside
their membership to a maximum of 20% of the board of directors of
a co-operative.
Bill C-5 also includes definitions of the duties, liabilities
and responsibilities of directors. It addresses the governance
of the board of directors. As a former co-operative director, I
can assure the House that this section of the bill, in
particular, is a very welcome measure. Under Bill C-5 the
standards that apply to directors under the Canadian Business
Corporations Act will now apply to co-operatives.
This bill also gives co-operatives access to the modern and
flexible legislative tools such as the right to amalgamate, which
is very important in this industry.
On behalf of the people I represent, I can declare that this is
a rare occasion. My colleagues in the Reform Party, veterans of
the previous Parliament, have assured me that it is a rare
experience to find ourselves on the side of the House supporting
a successful event accompanied by the lame side of the House, the
government side.
Even the hon. member for Edmonton North, formerly the member for
Beaver River, who is our most experienced team member admits that
by working closely with Canadians and listening to the concerns
of affected parties, the Liberals got it right this time just for
a change.
I mention the deputy leader of the Reform Party because as a new
member of Parliament representing a brand new constituency, she
has taken the time to explain to me, a rookie MP from British
Columbia, that she can remember very few times in the House when
she could cast her vote in support of a Tory or Liberal
government initiative. We rely on her sage wisdom. She has seen
almost every flat footed, maniac antic of Tory and Liberal
governments.
She has seen hundreds of millions of dollars go to Bombardier in
Quebec. Bombardier always remembers the Tories or the Liberals at
election time, of course, depending on which party is most likely
to win.
She has seen Liberal and Tory cabinet ministers, MPs and party
hacks brought up on all kinds of charges of bad behaviour,
questionable conduct and things that extend to criminal acts and
RCMP investigations. Surely, it must have been our deputy leader
who coined the phrase, Liberal-Tory, same old story.
These days in question period she is trying to find out how the
current Liberal government has rigged it so that 70% of the
companies that get hundreds of millions of dollars in contracts
from the Canadian International Development Agency are the same
companies that give hundreds of thousands of dollars to the
Liberal Party of Canada.
Imagine, companies that get CIDA contracts are 70 times more
likely to have given money to the Liberal Party of Canada than
any other company. A group of companies directed by former
Liberal cabinet minister, Marc Lalonde, has donated a whopping
$80,000 to the Liberals in the last two years and the payoff is
$80 million in CIDA contracts. This situation is unacceptable and
almost unbelievable.
1650
Mr. John Harvard: Madam Speaker, I have a civil question.
What in the world do the remarks of the current speaker have to
do with Bill C-5? I know that we take a very liberal approach
around here and that our discipline, when it comes to enforcing
the rules, is quite lax. I can understand that. I just cannot
understand how his remarks are in any way relevant to Bill C-5.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I would ask the hon.
member for Surrey Central to please be pertinent in his comments
during this debate.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Madam Speaker, I am well aware that I
am discussing Bill C-5, but there is a strong desire and need to
mention this particular fact because for a surprise, we see that
this bill, presented by the Liberals, is a strange thing.
In most of the previous bills, they have been dealing with how
to squeeze money from the taxpayers who are taxed to death. For
a surprise, we are looking into this matter. This is a matter
for accountability. I refer to this simply because we are amazed
and surprised how this bill is presented and quoted by them. I
will go to my debate.
The Reform Party whip, the hon. member from Fraser Valley, has
researched this same sort of behaviour by the Liberals which I
mentioned earlier. I believe that there is a need to mention
this because it is pertinent and important here.
He found that a Montreal accounting firm that gave $87,000 to
the Liberals over the past few years has received $20 million in
contracts from CIDA. I suppose that the true reason that the
Liberals have it right this time with respect to Bill C-5 is that
somebody else wrote this bill for them.
The Liberals have, in fact, very little to do with this bill.
That is the reason my colleague from the other side has pointed
out, because they have to do very little to this bill, that it is
not written by them. It is given to them by the co-operative
themselves.
I would guess that most of the Liberal backbenchers, especially
the neglected, lonely and largely unknown members from Ontario
may not have even read Bill C-5. Liberal MPs who are not in the
cabinet do not have to read this bill because they are told by
their Liberal Party whip how they are supposed to cast their
vote, how to behave in committee and what to say in the media and
to their constituents. Their whip does all those things for
them.
The good constituents of Surrey Central know that, as their
member of Parliament, I am free to vote the will of my
constituents. My constituents tell me, not my party whip, how to
cast the vote of Surrey Central in this House.
Again, I point out that this legislation was written for the
Liberals by the co-operatives in Canada to modernize the current
definition of co-operative basis, improve the governance rules,
increase financing possibilities, amalgamation and other
flexibilities needed by many of Canada's co-operatives.
In fact, my constituents and I are glad to be of some service
and assistance to the more than 10,000 co-operatives operating in
Canada by casting the vote Surrey Central has in this House in
favour of approving the passage of this Bill C-5.
Most sectors of the Canadian economy have co-operatives.
Co-operatives have been a very successful component in our
economy. In fact, many co-operatives are non-financial
co-operatives. These co-operatives serve many sectors of our
economy, including agriculture, consumers, fishing, forestry,
health, child care, housing and community development.
The largest amount of co-operatives in Canada exist in the
agriculture sector. These co-operatives include marketing
co-operatives as well as those involved in supply, production and
services.
1655
Canada's co-operatives employ more than 133,000 Canadians.
Canadian co-operatives have over 14.1 million members, which is
about half of the population of this wonderful country.
On this side of the House we are anxious to support anything
which will help Canadians continue to be employed. We want to do
everything we can to create jobs. We want to ensure fair
treatment of the small business community and our co-operatives.
Bill C-5 will assist in ensuring a level playing field for our
co-operatives to be competitive in the business industry.
By supporting an initiative that will modernize and assist the
work of co-operatives in Canada, Bill C-5 will do something to
help overtaxed Canadians who are struggling to find jobs. The
Liberal Party has done nothing to create jobs for unemployed
Canadians; however, it has killed jobs with taxes.
The billions of dollars the Liberals have spent on
infrastructure—which is the wrong approach since the Liberals
have no vision—have failed to change the unemployment rate in
Canada since 1993. For 86 consecutive months Canada's
unemployment rate has been hovering at about 9%.
The co-operative movement in Canada now reaches most sectors of
the Canadian economy. Canadians co-operatives compete head to
head with national and international businesses and corporations.
It is important that the federal government support this
movement, particularly with the globalization of businesses.
The Reform Party supports measures to ensure the successful
operation of the marketplace, including promoting competition.
We recognize private sector investment as an important source of
capital for Canadian businesses, unlike the Liberals, who have
been patting themselves on their backs day after day, even in
question period.
We believe that the private sector is the key to job creation in
Canada. Small and medium size firms in Canada could create more
jobs if they were not taxed to death.
Most jobs in Canada are created by small business. That is not
what the Liberals believe. They continue to spend hard earned
tax dollars on public make-work programs which provide few short
term jobs. Ask any Liberal on the other side and he or she will
put you to sleep rambling on about what the Liberal government
has done to create jobs for Canadians. Any Liberal spin doctor
can give you a seemingly endless litany of things the Liberals
have done to create jobs, but we know that the Liberals just do
not have it right.
Governments do not create jobs. People create jobs. Our small
businesses and entrepreneurs create jobs, but they cannot do that
when the smiling Minister of Finance cripples their businesses
with taxes. How can they do it?
The Liberals have reduced the deficit by increasing taxes. They
have frozen the unemployment rate since they took over the reins
of the federal government from the Tories.
Bill C-5 is a good bill because it addresses the needs of the
private sector. Canada's private sector is in the best position
to determine what it needs to be competitive. For once, we have
the Liberals allowing the federal government to respond to the
needs of the private sector. It is a miracle.
Not only that, but it appears that the Liberals are allowing us
to have a debate on Bill C-5. We were only allowed to debate
Bill C-2, which was the largest tax increase in Canadian history,
for a very brief time, less than seven hours. Following that the
Liberals only allowed one day, a couple of hours, for Bill C-10
to be debated in the House. It was another tax grab. That we
are allowed to debate Bill C-5 is another miracle. I hope that I
will continue to see such miracles in this House for all bills
which come before the House in the future.
We on this side of the House give a clear warning to the
Liberals that we do not want debate on any bill to be suddenly
cancelled, particularly those which dig deep into the pockets of
Canadians.
1700
These are the same Liberals who cancelled the Somalia inquiry.
Never before in the history of our country has any government
shut down a commission of judicial inquiry. The Liberals did.
The Somalia inquiry was only two-thirds of the way through its
work when the Liberals shut it down. The inquiry was very close
to analysing events at the department of defence that took place
under the Liberal government.
In Bill C-10, the bill that only saw the light of this House for a
matter of a few short hours before the Liberals shut down debate,
we saw that the Liberals cannot even do something as simple as
negotiate a tax treaty with another country without trying to
figure out a way to squeeze more money out of the already
overtaxed Canadian taxpayers.
Income tax take has been rising steadily in this country. The
Liberals are balancing the budget on the backs of Canadian
taxpayers. Canadians know that the average family's purchasing
power has been decreasing since 1993. Personal income tax
revenues have increased significantly since the Liberals have
been in power.
The savings rate for Canadians has dropped from 10% in 1992 to
less than 1%—
[Translation]
Mr. Denis Coderre: Madam Speaker, I can understand that our hon.
colleague is new to this place but one must not wander too far away from
the subject matter. We are discussing co-operatives.
We are interested in the opposition's views on co-operatives.
Besides, if we start dealing with what the Reform Party has done wrong,
I could speak for a very long time. I could indeed, but I would like us
to stick to the matter at hand and discuss Bill C-5.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I would remind the
hon. member to please keep the debate pertinent.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Yes, Madam Speaker, I appreciate that
but on the other side, I have to justify why we are supporting
this bill. What we have seen in the past on the other side is
why we have to mention these things. These are bitter truths. I
am not making up these figures.
The finance minister has just introduced the largest tax hike in
Canada, a 73% increase in CPP premiums, that will cost $10
billion to the Canadian taxpayers. Those are the reasons why we
have to mention these things. They are the ones who are not
creating jobs. On this side of the House we have to say these
things because we will support any motion or bill that will
create jobs.
To summarize what I have been saying, Canadians want our federal
government to be effective and efficient in terms of leading our
nation to prosperity. Bill C-5 is a lesson for the Liberals. If
they do their work honestly and well then everyone in this House
can give their support to such work.
When the Liberals are pork-barreling, when they are handing out
patronage appointments, when they turn their backs on the victims
of crime, when they hide their heads in the sand like ostriches
and ignore the unemployed and when they refuse to assist our
private sector to be competitive in the global economy, we will
hold the government's feet to the fire.
In conclusion, on behalf of the constituents of Surrey Central,
I am casting my vote in support of Bill C-5 and the strengthening
of co-operatives in Canada.
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I listened with some interest to the member opposite
with respect to what he was saying and, of course, in typical
Reform fashion, preaching the politics of fear and the politics
of doom and gloom. It struck me, that wonderful picture we saw
in the paper today of Frederik Eaton with the Leader of the
Opposition, whether or not that was the kind of thing they were
discussing last night at the fund-raising dinner held in Toronto.
In reality, the government has created over the course of
the past four years a climate of economic growth unparalleled
since the 1950s and 1960s.
1705
All we have to do, which the hon. member should do sometime, is
look at the evidence. The evidence indicates that we have the
lowest interest rates that we have had for 30 years, housing
starts are up, growth is up and consumer sales are up. The
government has done a very good job, unlike what the member
opposite would lead Canadians to believe.
I was most intrigued by his statement with respect to how he
reflects his constituents. I wonder if he could lay out
precisely for the House how he goes about scientifically taking
the pulse of what his constituents tell him to say on any given
issue. I would be interested in hearing whether he polls,
whether he has town hall meetings, what he does to ensure that
all the people in his riding have their voices heard.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to answer
the hon. member's question. He did not read Bill C-5. He has no
concrete question to ask on the bill so he is asking a question
on what he believes he has been doing on the other side when his
whip tells him to vote in support of the bill or against the
bill.
On this side of the House we keep completely in touch with our
constituents. We meet with them frequently. We have a free
right to vote on this side of the House.
I sent a survey to my constituents asking for their views on
different matters and I have received encouraging responses from
them on various issues. I will be putting forward their concerns
in the House.
Unlike the other side of the House, I am free to vote the way my
constituents want.
Mr. Walt Lastewka (St. Catharines, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
will be splitting my time with the member from Essex.
I rise today on the occasion of second reading to the proposed
legislation regarding the Canada co-operatives act. This bill
marks another step in this government's effort to provide modern
up to date framework laws that establish fair and efficient
marketplace rules.
In the past we have passed legislation to modernize and
streamline laws from bankruptcy, insolvency to copyright. These
framework laws are an important part of Industry Canada's
contribution to the government's jobs and growth agenda.
The bill before us deals with non-financial co-operatives.
Financial co-ops or credit unions were reformed in the last
parliament with the passage of the Co-operative Credit
Associations Act.
The value of Canada's co-operatives can be found when we look at
the kinds of principles they instil in their members and their
communities, principles such as democratic control and concern
for their members, principles such as community development and
education for the young. For the better part of this century
co-operatives have prospered in Canada as an alternative form to
business enterprise.
In communities across Canada co-operatives have proven that it
is possible to flourish in a market economy with principles that
emphasize community participation, democratic equality and
co-operation.
That being said, it is true that even though co-ops are a unique
and distinctive form of business organization they nevertheless
compete in a market economy against business corporations. For
example, retail co-operatives compete against the Canadian Tires,
the Loblaws, the Wal-Marts, the Price Clubs and so on.
Survival in this marketplace depends on innovation and
flexibility. It depends on getting the best advice from board
members who are knowledgeable of the business world. In this
environment co-operatives have been competing for years with
their hands tied behind their backs because the marketplace
framework laws governing these organizations restrict their
freedom to make some choices needed to respond to changing
demands, to changing competition and to changing markets.
These co-operative associations work closely with their members.
They discuss their draft model act within the co-operative
movement. When they have a draft bill ready they approach the
Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food, responsible for
co-operatives, and the Minister of Industry, responsible for
marketplace framework laws.
This is a good way of preparing legislation, working
co-operatively with organizations and the government in
partnership to make things happen.
I hope we see more of these examples in the future.
1710
Industry Canada had to assure itself that the draft legislation
met the requirements of the contemporary marketplace framework
laws. The bill before us governs co-operatives that are
incorporated federally. Most non-financial co-operatives are
incorporated in the province in which they do business. This
means the bill before us today affects only a small portion of
non-financial co-operatives in Canada. But the relatively small
number of businesses affected directly by this bill should not
detract from the importance of this bill.
The bill creates a Canada co-operatives act that provides
co-operatives with the same flexibility now enjoyed by federally
incorporated businesses. However, it still maintains the key
co-operative principles essential in any co-operative
legislation. It leaves the choice to adopt the new business
oriented measures in the hands of the membership, the members.
To help co-operatives compete more effectively in the
marketplace, the bill provides more flexibility to recruit
directors from outside the membership. At least two-thirds of
directors of the co-operative have to be members or
representatives of those members of co-operatives, corporations
or entities. One-third of the board can be from outside. If the
co-op issues investment shares, members will decide on that. In
each case it is the members who decide.
In other words, this bill enables the co-operatives to draw on
the expertise of those who can help guide the co-operative
whether or not they are members of the co-operative themselves.
At the same time, however, the members themselves continue to make
the fundamental decisions that set the rules for the co-op. These
include the articles of incorporation, the bylaws, the right to
make proposals at any annual meeting and the ability to request
special meetings of the members.
In short, this bill gives co-operatives the best of both worlds.
It continues to promote the distinctive features of co-operatives
that have made them such an important force in Canada's economy.
At the same it provides a modern, flexible, business type set of
tools to allow co-ops to compete against other forms of business
on a level playing field. I hope hon. members will join me in
supporting this bill.
[Translation]
Ms. Susan Whelan (Essex, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am very proud to
rise today to speak on a bill that is so important for the health and
prosperity of the Canadian economy, especially as far as rural and
remote communities are concerned.
I want to talk about co-operatives in sectors like agriculture,
fisheries and forestry, co-operatives providing energy to remote
communities and serving aboriginal communities.
[English]
As of 1995 there were over 617,000 members of agricultural
co-operatives in Canada. These co-ops were responsible for
almost $16.3 billion in sales. Types of co-ops in the
agricultural sector include marketing co-ops which account for
34% of the membership and realize 73% of the revenue. They are
responsible for marketing some 57% of the market share in dairy
products, 59% in the grains and oilseed sector and 47% in the
poultry and egg sector.
[Translation]
Take for example the Agropur co-operative in Granby, Quebec. It is
currently the largest producer and distributor of fancy cheese and whey
in Canada. It is represented in the yogurt and fresh deserts sector by
Ultima Foods Inc., a company co-owned by Agropur and Agrifoods
International Co-operative Limited, of British Columbia. In 1995,
Agropur's sales figure exceeded $1 billion. It has 4,500 members and
2,200 employees.
1715
[English]
Agricultural co-ops also include those involved in production
and services. One of the most successful producer co-ops is the
Saskatchewan Wheat Pool, the largest co-op in Canada. It was
formed by farmers in 1924 to handle their wheat harvest. It has
come a long way.
In 1995 it had annual sales of almost $3 billion and handled 60%
of the total grain movement in the province. In recent years it
has successfully diversified into valued added processing, bakery
supply and manufacturing, fertilizer manufacturing, an ethanol
plant, biotechnology development and a host of other areas.
We can see the impact of co-operatives in the energy sector in
Alberta. At one time the rural electrification program carried
out by co-operatives in Alberta accounted for almost 90% of the
electricity supplied to the province's farmers.
Those co-ops are fewer in number today. Many of them have sold
their assets and responsibilities to power companies, but even
while the number of co-ops in Alberta's electricity grid is
decreasing the importance of natural gas co-ops to supply Alberta
farms is increasing. In 1995 these co-operatives accounted for
over 54% of the total sales of energy co-operatives in Canada.
[Translation]
Consumer co-operatives are also having an influence on the
rural economy. Federated Co-operatives Limited, a federally
regulated co-operative, is the second largest Canadian co-operative
in terms of revenue.
[English]
In 1995 it earned $2.1 billion in sales. It is a supply,
production and services co-operative that provides retail co-ops
with food, petroleum, seed, hardware and building products, crop
supplies, livestock feed and family fashions. It also provides a
number of support services such as training, as well as computer,
audit, advertising, legal and communication services. It owns
the Consumers Co-operative Refineries Limited of Regina, seven
feed plants, a plywood plant, a sawmill and the Grocery People
Limited retail chain.
In the fishery sector co-operatives have managed through the
tough times since the 1992 cod moratorium. Their strength lies
in their people. During tough times these people stand together
behind their co-op. We have a situation, for example, where
despite the moratorium there are still over 9,000 members of
fishing co-operatives. We can find a number of success stories
in the fishing sector.
In Prince Edward Island the Tignish Fisheries Co-operative
Limited has be canning lobster since 1925. It has 250 employees
and in 1995 had $14 million in sales. As production moves from
canning to specialty packaging the co-op expects that it will
need to hire more people and keep them working longer.
[Translation]
Forestry co-operatives are enjoying phenomenal success. Their
membership has increased by more than 63% between 1985 and 1995,
and their revenue has gone up 247%.
They are doing particularly well in Quebec. In the
Saguenay—Lac-St-Jean region, for instance, the Co-opérative
forestière Laterrière-Saint-Honoré has a payroll of some $5.4
million and sales of $30 million. It is involved in forest
management, logging, and production of seedlings, as well as
sawmill and planing operations.
[English]
I would also like to mention the important place that
co-operatives have in the economy of aboriginal communities. By
1995 there were 76 aboriginal co-operatives in Canada. They are
especially strong in the Northwest Territories and northern
Quebec. In fact these co-operatives have more than 20,000
members.
Co-operatives are big business for the rural economy and in
communities far from urban centres without losing sight of the
community values that led to their creation in the first place.
They are big businesses that pursue the interest of their members
as a whole. They are big businesses that have shown Canadians
another way to operate in a market economy.
The future of co-operatives in Canada is integral to the future
of the economy in rural and remote areas. The bill before us
gives these organizations the tools they need to keep on
contributing to the economic growth of Canada.
The co-operative movement has a long and distinguished history
of helping people in smaller communities. It goes back 150 years
to when the first modern co-op was formed by the weavers of the
village of Rochdale in Britain.
By the turn of the century there were thousands of co-operatives
throughout Europe and a growing co-op movement in Canada. The
movement gained momentum with the birth of the prairie wheat
pools at the beginning of this century.
1720
[Translation]
But the economy is evolving, and the tools available to
co-operatives must evolve in turn. The Canadian Co-operative
Association and the Conseil canadien de la co-opération submitted
the model legislation, which includes the amendments they would
like to see incorporated in the draft bill. The Minister of
Industry and the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food have
examined it carefully and have circulated a working document
containing their analysis.
[English]
In the best tradition of the co-operative movement this bill
comes from the people. It is not a top down statute designed by
government departments to remedy perceived problems. It is a
bill created by the very people who know best what they need to
maintain a healthy and vibrant co-op movement for the future.
I emphasize that the bill is entirely in keeping with the
government's own stated aims and objectives. I see the bill as a
key element in the government's commitment to strengthen the
rural economy. It is a commitment we made in the Speech from the
Throne when the government made the economic renewal of rural
Canada a priority for this session of Parliament.
The government said it would address the problems facing rural
Canadians in a way that is tailored to their needs.
[Translation]
The bill gives them these tools. I urge the House to pass it.
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, everyone is
interested in co-operatives. I have a particular interest in them,
since there are agricultural co-operatives in my riding. Naturally,
many of my constituents are members of caisses populaires, and even
the weekly newspaper in my riding belongs to a co-operative with
several hundred members. This weekly owns the riding's radio
station, CKNU FM, at 100.9, which broadcasts news about the
Portneuf area from Quebec City to Trois-Rivières.
So you will understand that, when the topic of co-operatives
comes up, I am not just interested but very much involved because
it is a topic of importance not just in my region but in Quebec
and, as I can see, in Canada as well.
As other speakers for the Bloc Quebecois mentioned earlier, we
are going to support this bill in principle. There are certain
provisions that worry us, however, and I would like to ask our hon.
colleague on the government side why, in the case of housing
co-operatives, for example, the procedures for dissolution are
different from those of other co-operatives.
What is the reason for these differences? Could she clarify
this for us? I await her reply.
[English]
Ms. Susan Whelan: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member
for his question.
Co-operatives are associations of individuals who work together,
volunteer and pool their resources. There are many differences
among the different types of co-ops. As I said earlier co-ops
are found in fishing, agriculture, housing and community
development initiatives. They all have slight differences.
I believe the hon. member is aware there are differences for
co-ops because they serve different purposes.
Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member made a very eloquent speech on
co-operatives.
I am very interested in her views on something happening today
that will have a negative effect on the ability of Canadians to
create jobs: the CPP premium hike that will take place by the
beginning of next year.
This hike will almost double the premiums on CPP payments
Canadians from coast to coast will have to pay. It will double
the premiums of those who are independently employed and
employable.
1725
This increase at a time of pending surplus budgets will have a
massive crushing effect on the ability of the primary driver—
Mr. Walt Lastewka (St. Catharines, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise on a point of order. A number of discussions this afternoon
have gone totally away from the subject at hand, Bill C-5 and
co-operatives.
I ask for your direction, Mr. Speaker. I think it would be good
in debate if we stuck to the topic of Bill C-5 and co-operatives
rather than go all the way around the world to all those other
things that have absolutely no relevancy to co-operatives and
associations that worked so hard with the government to get the
legislation to where it is today. I ask for your assistance.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. member is
quite correct. We have to keep the debate relevant.
I was interested in trying to figure out, as were other members,
how the hon. member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca would weave his
comments into a question.
I give the remaining time to the hon. member for Essex.
Ms. Susan Whelan: Mr. Speaker, Department of Finance
officials have been consulted on Bill C-5. They have indicated
that there are no foreseeable tax implications for co-operatives
under the bill.
I am not sure why the hon. member would go off on another issue,
but there are no tax implications in the bill.
Mr. Charlie Power (St. John's West, PC): Mr. Speaker, it
is a real honour to represent the people of St. John's West. This
is my first speech in the House, after having asked a couple of
questions.
Although having represented a riding called Ferryland, part of
St. John's West, in the Newfoundland legislature for about 17
years I am pretty reluctant to call my first speech a maiden
speech.
I thank the people from the constituency of St. John's West for
giving me this tremendous honour. It is a real honour for anyone
to come here and serve the people of Canada. I am very grateful
for that.
I would be a little remiss if I did not also thank the wonderful
team I had who helped me put together my campaign which was very
successful in getting me to the House of Commons.
Tomorrow I will be making a real speech about some Newfoundland
issues. Just so that people understand, one of the duties of
parliamentarians besides representing their own constituents is
to be a critic of certain industries and certain portfolios in
government. My critic responsibility is industry where the
co-operative legislation lies. Thus today I will debate the bill
on co-operatives.
Bill C-5 is a good piece of legislation. It will be supported
by all colleagues in the Conservative caucus. It is a piece of
legislation that has evolved after much discussion with many of
the principals and parties involved, many levels of government,
and the associations of co-operatives both in Quebec and in the
rest of Canada.
It is not very often that we will see such a large degree of
co-operation in the House of Commons. Co-operatives involve
people organizing around a common goal, usually not for profit
but rather for the economic benefit of their members.
I might point out in my first chance to speak in the House of
Commons the purpose of Canada in the beginning: a group of people
organizing together for common goals where everybody works for
the good of everyone else.
In the short period of time I have been here I have seen that
some of us have forgotten that principle of Canada, the principle
of co-operation, the principle of a co-operative, the idea we
should work together.
We are now all broken down into the regions of Canada and each
region seems to lose some of its empathy and compatibility with
the rest of Canada. That is most unfortunate and something that
simply should not be allowed to continue in the House.
Co-operatives come from the grassroots movement. As such
ordinary people are trying to make their ordinary lives a little
better by organizing in certain elements which we now call
co-operatives.
Co-operatives are also in many ways leaders in our community in
environmental issues. They think the economies they are involved
with must be sustainable and must not do any damage to the
environment.
As such I want to commend many of the co-operatives in this
country for taking a very progressive leadership role on the
environment.
1730
Many co-operatives—I presume all co-operatives—are committed
to Canadian economic prosperity. They do this through links with
other international co-operative associations and in doing so
they are able to participate in worldwide trade and many
marketing ventures.
In doing research on Bill C-5 I found the role which
co-operatives have played in Canada to be absolutely amazing. It
started back in the 1800s with the Mutual Farm Insurance Company.
By the late 1800s farmers wanted to have the same security in
producing and marketing their products as successful large
businesses. The farmers decided it was in their best interests
to band together to gain better control over the marketing of
their products and purchases. Today agricultural co-operatives
play a major role in the Canadian economy.
I will be sharing my time with my colleague from
Brandon—Souris, who will elaborate on and emphasize the
importance of agricultural co-operatives.
Agricultural co-ops supply 36% of fertilizer and chemical sales.
They have over 221,000 members and employ 18,000 people full
time. That is something which I, coming from Newfoundland, would
not have understood if I was not the critic responsible for
debating Bill C-5.
There are also many fishery and forestry co-operatives. I was
involved with a fishery co-operative in the small town of Petty
Harbour, Newfoundland, where fishermen had real difficulty in
marketing and selling their product. They formed their own
co-operative. Although they ran into the same difficulties which
all of the Newfoundland fishing companies ran into, they
certainly showed that if people in small communities want to pool
their resources and work together then success stories can
evolve.
There are many consumer co-operatives in Canada. In 1995 there
were 582 consumer co-operatives, with almost three million
members. In 1995 there were also 28 health care co-operatives
that generated $268.3 million in revenue and had over 316,000
members.
There are child care co-operatives that involve either day care
or nursery school services. In 1995 there were 437 day care and
nursery school co-ops in Canada. Where would all those children
receive their day care and nursery schooling if these co-ops were
not in place?
Co-operatives in many areas play a very major role in our
economy.
There are also housing co-operatives. The number of housing
co-operatives has been on the rise since the mid-1970s. In 1995
there were 1,946 housing co-ops across the country, with over
107,000 members. When I was campaigning in St. John's West I
encountered people who were members of a housing co-op. They
were very upset that the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation,
the agency which had funded their co-op, seemed to have classed
them in with social housing, which is a different kind of
housing, and was becoming reluctant to get further involved in
co-op housing.
I talked to the participants of the project which I visited that
day. They are very soundly proud of having co-op housing, which
was funded through the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.
There are workers co-operatives, which reflects the need for
people to have more control over their own employment. In 1995
there were 225 of these co-operatives, with about 14,000 members.
Essentially, there are more than 7,000 non-financial
co-operatives operating in Canada, with over 4.5 million members.
Therefore it is important that we examine Bill C-5 to see exactly
what it means because it affects so many Canadians in so many
different ways.
Our role in the House is to do what we are doing today. Although
I said that Bill C-5 is an excellent bill, and there has been a
lot of discussion, there are still small parts of it which we
want to discuss. I am sure we can do that in committee at a
future time.
While the principle of a co-operative is to function outside a
market economy, it must nonetheless respond to the same pressures
and logic of that market. Therefore competition compels
co-operatives to adopt the operating style and environment of the
market oriented firms which dominate our economy. This point has
fueled the necessity for change in this legislative environment.
It is also why the proposed changes in Bill C-5 mirror some of
the existing rights for businesses which are granted under the
Canada Business Corporations Act. Thus it is called enabling
legislation. Powers are expanded and existing rules are
clarified, but no co-operative is forced to change the way it
currently operates.
While the provinces have been updating their co-operative
legislation over the years, there have been no changes to
modernize the framework of the federal legislation since its
inception.
The proposals put forward by all of the co-operative
associations, both in Quebec and in Canada, were based on
consultations with both memberships.
As previously mentioned, the most notable feature was that the
changes would more closely align the Canada Co-operatives
Association Act with the Canada Business Corporation Act.
1735
It is time to get these changes moving forward, adding more
flexibility, more competitiveness and the principle of using
surplus funds to allow members to access additional funds for
expansion. Finally the principle of education is also
emphasized.
There is also an important principle in this bill which reduces
ministerial authority, which is always good in legislation.
I would like to point out that Bill C-5 is not a controversial
bill. Agreement between all parties was slow. It took over five
years to develop. I believe a reasonable compromise was reached.
Overall this bill is a positive step in bringing co-operatives
into the 21st century by making them more flexible, more
efficient and more competitive.
The changes in Bill C-5 are wide scale adjustments but I am
confident the overall co-op membership of some 4.5 million
Canadians will benefit greatly.
Mr. Walt Lastewka (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Industry, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I want to take the opportunity
to congratulate the member for St. John's West on his maiden
speech. As he said, he has had much practice before, but I would
like to welcome him to this House.
I also want to welcome him to the industry committee. Although
his title might be industry critic, I know that there are many
items that we can work on in co-operation. I would also like to
thank him for sticking to the topic of Bill C-5 and
co-operatives, like the Bloc and the NDP but unlike the official
opposition who went off topic.
It is important when we are talking about a bill like Bill C-5
that we do stick to the topic and put our best foot forward at
all times.
As parliamentary secretary I would like to ask the member
whether he has had a chance to discuss with the co-operatives in
his area and surrounding areas the improvements that have been
suggested in Bill C-5 and how will it benefit his area?
Mr. Charlie Power: Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for
his question.
Obviously in Newfoundland we do not have the same degree of
co-operatives as there are in western Canada. We do have several
very successful fishing co-ops, one being Fogo Island co-op which
has been in existence for many years and has been a model for
many of the smaller co-ops in Newfoundland and Labrador.
We have the Newfoundland Teachers Credit Union of which I was a
member for many of my earlier years when I was teaching. It is a
very successful credit union and it gives excellent services to
the people of St. John's West and to Newfoundland and Labrador.
One of the things we might have missed in Newfoundland was a
greater degree of co-operation and the co-operatives which could
have resulted from that. I mentioned the Petty Harbour co-op.
The community was catching lots of fish in the early 80s, but had
no means to sell that fish, no means to process it. Through the
leadership of people like Mike Hearn and Tom Best in that
community they ran a pretty successful co-op for a period of
time, but then ran into fishery problems.
Co-operatives in Newfoundland could play a much greater role.
One of the greatest problems we have in Newfoundland is finding
access to capital for small business. The Canadian banking
establishment does not aggressively get involved in the
Newfoundland business community. Maybe co-operatives could play
an active role there as well. I hope to see it grow over the
years.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, I also
support this bill.
I want to say to the hon. member that back in Saint John, New
Brunswick we have a lot of co-operative housing. Under CMHC it
has been very successful. I hope that members of the government
will take a look at that program. My understanding is that CMHC
is cutting back on the program and cutting out co-op housing. We
have over 700 families looking for housing.
I ask the hon. member if he will do some work for us on that
because he has stated there is a need. We see the need as well.
1740
Mr. Charlie Power: Mr. Speaker, I would be delighted to
check with Canada Mortgage and Housing officials to see exactly
where their program now stands. I know that during the election
campaign in St. John's West it was of great concern to some
persons who were in co-op housing.
I say to members opposite that it is an excellent program. It
probably does not really cost the Government of Canada any money
because the money gets repaid. I just hope it continues to put
some emphasis on those types of programs.
Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Mr. Speaker, I
appreciate your recognizing me to speak as my colleague has
shared his time. I have 10 minutes, although I would like to
hear the hon. member from across the way. I am sure I can stay
in the House and hear his words of wisdom.
I hope my colleague will not ask as many questions of me as she
did of my colleague from St. John's West.
When I was first elected, not that many months ago, I said that
when good legislation was put forward by the government I would
make sure that I congratulated them and that I would speak
positively on positive legislation. Coming from Manitoba and
western Canada, the birth place of co-operatives, I stand today
to say that this legislation is very positive.
Wherever I walk in my community or in my constituency I
constantly see examples of co-operatives, whether they are
agricultural co-operatives, housing co-operatives or a media
co-op which has been developed within the constituency of
Brandon—Souris. Being the birth place of co-ops, I appreciate
that legislation from the 1970s is being updated to the 1990s and
into the 21st century so that co-operatives can compete in a very
competitive age that we have currently with the private sector.
I should also say that I will not stray, as has been mentioned
earlier. I am not prepared to stand up here and talk about
issues such as Stornoway or hypocrisy or things of that nature. I
would like to speak to the very positive nature of the
legislation put forward, as did my colleague from St. John's
West.
As we all recognize, co-operatives really are the grassroots of
industry and commerce. It started in western Canada in the late
1880s and in fact was put forward because individuals wanted to
work together. They wanted to, as the name suggests, co-operate
with one another, put their resources, assets and abilities
together so that they could, in a non-profit way, make sure that
they had opportunities to compete with the private sector.
By the late 1800s, the farmers were the ones who wished to make
sure that they took up this opportunity in agriculture. In the
FP-500 ranking in 1995, the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool does $2.7
billion worth of business in western Canada. The Alberta Wheat
Pool does $1.5 billion worth of business. The Manitoba Pool
Elevators does $744 million. These are 1995 figures. I can
assure members that the numbers are much larger in 1997 numbers,
to the point where the Manitoba Pool Elevators have shown a
record profit. When I use the term profit, it is profit that
goes back to the owners of that particular co-operative which in
fact are the members of that co-operative.
I can also say that we have, by example, in western Canada one
of the co-operatives that is vying constantly for first place
with that of the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool and that is the
Federated Co-operatives. They are a wholesaler. They make sure
that they supply retail to these other co-operatives and are
extremely successful.
We also have co-operatives, as my hon. colleague has said, in
the Atlantic provinces. They have the Co-op Atlantic. I have to
say that simply because I sit beside the hon. member for Saint
John.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne: You had better believe it or you won't
be able to sit at all.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Rick Borotsik: The principles of the 1970 Canada—
An hon. member: That wouldn't be a bad idea, Elsie.
Mr. Rick Borotsik: Thanks. No, we do not use names here.
We use only the member for Saint John. I am learning, Mr.
Speaker.
1745
The principles of the 1970 Canada Cooperatives Association
Act were based on provincial legislation dating back to the
early 20th century. While the provinces have been constantly
updating their co-operative acts, as provinces normally are ahead
of the federal government, it is about time the federal
government caught up.
I commented and complimented the government on bringing this
legislation forward and I continue to do so, but I should also
say that it was done through the co-operation of the Canadian
Cooperatives Association. It was the co-operatives themselves
who wanted to bring forward legislation that was going to allow
them to compete.
I think it rather interesting and rather appropriate that
national co-op week was held October 12 to October 18. Members
were not in the House during that period, which is unfortunate.
The theme of national co-op week this year was co-operation now
more than ever. I believe sincerely that theme in itself speaks
also to the legislation.
The legislation allows a number of things. First and foremost,
it allows the ability to capitalize in a different fashion from
what they have been allowed to do in the past. They now have the
ability to go public, to sell shares in corporations, which they
never had before. It allows them to capitalize
so they can expand and put more assets back into the
co-operative.
The legislation requires two-thirds or more of the membership to
make changes to a co-operative. That is very important. You
must be flexible in today's global economy to be able to deal
with the issues that are going to face the co-operatives not only
now but in the future.
There is one minor issue that we will be able to discuss at
committee, members' dissenting rights. I will not get into the
detail now but there are some obvious issues that have to be
dealt with in terms of dissenting rights. The question is not
whether members should have the ability to dissent, because they
should. They are members of a co-operative and have every right
to do so. The legislation speaks to a timeframe, and that
timeframe is a period of five years to pay out dissenters of
their equity in the co-op.
A lot of co-ops want to merge, which they did not have the
ability to do under the old legislation. Now I am sure they
would like to in order to compete with the major corporate
structure. In dissenting rights I think timeframe has to be
dealt with. It has to be talked out in committee and perhaps an
extension of the timeframe could be arranged. Instead of five
years perhaps there could be an extension of years so co-ops will
not be dealt with adversely if they have dissenters.
The bill attempts to balance member rights with corporate
directorate. It also allows the directors now on the co-ops to
have a 20% non-membership make-up, which again is very important
to bring in new ideas, new people and new capital to the co-op
systems.
It provides for alternate dispute resolution assistance from the
federal government with regard to grievances between co-operatives
and their members. Again, it is very positive to have that
dispute settling mechanism.
Bill C-5 makes changes to the rules governing a corporation. It
permits co-operatives to incorporate provided they operate on a
co-operative basis, again very positive.
Bill C-5 introduced the concept of natural persons when
describing co-operatives. As a result they are awarded the same
rights and privileges as natural persons. This is instead of
detailing the various rights, powers, privileges individually. It
also is in keeping with the same rights now awarded to business
corporations and mirrors the powers some province already offer
co-operatives, a harmonization of legislation from provinces to
the federal government.
Bill C-5 makes changes to the rules governing the issue of
shares, which is very important. The conditions of issuing
membership shares are set out in the corporation charter. Bill
C-5 will permit co-operatives with share capital to issue
investment shares to their members and to the public. This is
provided the members have agreed to do so and have set out the
rules in the charter bylaws. Traditionally co-ops have looked
only to their members to finance their operations. This is
probably the most important aspect of the legislation that has
been put forward. It is very positive.
The government along with the Canadian Cooperatives Association
has put forward an excellent piece of legislation. It is
important that we do allow co-operatives, people working with
people in order to make it better for co-operatives, to compete
in today's global economy and global society.
1750
When I arrived here I wanted to be positive about positive
legislation. I did not talk about CPP or OAS. I do not plan on
doing that right now. I congratulate the government. We will be
supporting this piece of legislation. Not only does it help
co-operatives but it helps Canadians where they live and where
they work.
Mr. Joe Comuzzi (Thunder Bay—Nipigon, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, thank you for allowing me to ask a question of my
colleague from Brandon—Souris. His most fortunate experience
since coming to the House has been that he is fortunate enough to
sit beside the member for Saint John. I am sure that if he pays
attention he will find much wisdom in his seat mate.
The importance of co-operative housing, in the area he
represents and in the area in Saskatchewan, as we heard earlier
from the spokesperson for the New Democratic Party, and the
federal involvement in co-operative housing has really been a
success story in Canada.
I can only relate my own parochial and personal interest
inasmuch as we have several co-operative housing ventures in the
area I represent in Thunder Bay, one being the Castlegreen
co-operative housing venture. I have visited Castlegreen on many
occasions.
I would like to express exactly what I see when I drive into
Castlegreen. First there is the pride of ownership among all the
residents. It is about the best well kept area in the whole of
our community of Thunder Bay. They have the community spirit
that I do not see in any other communities. It is due to the
residents who live there. It is interesting because many people
who live in this co-operative housing area are physically
challenged. Although they are physically challenged they
participate in all the activities that go on in that area.
My question for the member for Brandon—Souris is on the Sask
wheat pool that he mentioned, as did the member who spoke for the
NDP. I have a concern about the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool, it
being one of the largest co-operatives referred to. I read in
the last while that it became a member of the Toronto Stock
Exchange and is selling its stock.
Perhaps the member could explain how it can be a co-operative
and be a corporation selling shares on a public exchange.
Mr. Rick Borotsik: Mr. Speaker, I met
with the executive of the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool on a number of
occasions. It has a number of subsidiary companies, one which
is referred to as AgPro which has a number of retail enterprises
developed into its whole co-operative structure.
This is exactly what I spoke about, allowing co-operatives to
compete in the global economy and in the economy that we have
developed today in this great country of ours. The Saskatchewan
Wheat Pool has gone public. It has sold shares. They are
non-voting shares. It is allowed.
I talked about dissenting rights. They have in the province of
Saskatchewan dissenting rights. Those members of the
co-operative who do not wish to be part of that co-operative
based on a share structure can with their equity get out of that
particular corporation.
1755
That did not happen, quite frankly, because the members of that
co-operative found that the direction they were heading in with the
share offering they made was quite successful. The dollars
generated from that share offering were used to capitalize the
co-operative to compete further against other member
co-operatives, the Manitoba and Alberta pools, as well as the
private sector. They were able to put up sufficient assets to
compete with the private sector. So it has been very positive
for them.
This legislation will allow the same thing to happen with any
co-operative if it wishes to take that step.
Mr. Walt Lastewka (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Industry, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the member for
Brandon—Souris for his comments and especially for staying
focused.
In various areas of the country there are small and large
co-operatives. There has been some concern that there may be some
problems there and also some work to be done in committee. Has
the member had any feedback or any comments?
The small co-operatives can stay exactly where they are, but it
does not limit the other co-operatives from doing some of the
things the member just mentioned.
Mr. Rick Borotsik: Mr. Speaker, I can honestly say that I
have had very little if any opposition to this legislation coming
from small or large co-operatives.
One area where I did have some concern with was how the private
sector would deal with the legislation. I have made inquiries
and quite frankly the private sector is not opposed to the
co-operative legislation.
Mr. John Harvard (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Agriculture and Agri-Food, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like
to speak in support of the new Canada co-operatives act and right
off the bat I would like to say that I am absolutely delighted
with the tenor of this afternoon's debate. The comments in large
part are very supportive and positive about this bill. That
speaks well of the government's work.
I know the government consulted widely before the introduction
of the bill. It seems that the government has done its work
well, has listened to the people in the co-operative movement. I
think it has done a good job in drafting the bill. I am quite
sure that if anything significant has been overlooked it will be
caught at the committee stage.
Co-ops can be found in many important sectors of the Canadian
economy. They will be found in agriculture and forestry, in
retailing and health care, in housing in most cities right across
the country. These co-ops provide benefits for their members and
contribute significantly to Canada's economic development and
prosperity.
In some sectors of the economy they increase the competition
while in other sectors they provide services not otherwise
available to members.
There is a mentality that goes along with co-op membership.
Co-op members are often people who prefer the distribution of
wealth on the basis of effort rather than on capital. They place
a priority on meeting the needs of the community. Members have
found they can pool their physical efforts and capital resources
to create an effective service they would not have otherwise.
In a co-operative the capital is often invested, not for an
expected return on investments or dividends but rather often
invested for the purpose of providing goods and services at
reasonable costs.
A co-operative does not usually make a dividend on the basis of the
amount of money someone has invested. Rather it distributes its
surpluses on the basis of patronage within the co-operative
itself.
By pooling their resources in a co-operative, members reduce
their individual risks. The co-operative structure provides a
limited liability to its members. They cannot lose on bankruptcy
more than their share of the investment in the co-operative.
This helps enable the service to be as efficient and co-operative
as an incorporated business.
Traditionally a co-operative gives each member one vote in
conducting its affairs. It does not generally allow proxy
voting.
1800
The co-operative structure can increase the efficiency of
capital markets by increasing competition. It promotes a certain
amount of risk taking, innovation and economic growth that might
not otherwise happen. Co-operatives are different. They
contribute to the Canadian economy because of those differences.
They enable Canadians to participate in the growth of the economy
in an alternative way to the other corporate structures that
dominate the rest of the economy.
At the same time most co-operatives are run like businesses.
They charge members a price for services. They return some of
the profit to members. Indeed some of the larger co-operatives
are integrated both vertically and horizontally. Some have joint
ventures with corporations. Some even own corporations.
In September I had the pleasure of spending three days with
executives of the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool in Regina and
Saskatoon. I also visited their terminal facilities in
Vancouver. What I found was a very smooth running, highly
professional and aggressive organization. If all Canadians could
gain an appreciation of Sask pool the way I did I think most
people would come away believing that this is a smart
organization. It really hums along. It is doing well for all
its members.
Many co-operatives are not very small. Sask pool is one and I
will mention more about that in a moment.
In the 1996 Financial Post listing of the top 500
companies in Canada, 17 non-financial co-ops were listed.
According to analysis by the Co-operative Secretariat of
Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, seven of these had revenues of
over $1 billion. The largest is the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool,
number 54 in the top 500. It is incorporated in the province of
Saskatchewan. Two federally incorporated co-ops are the next
largest. Federated Co-operatives Limited ranked number 75, with
revenues of over $2.1 billion, and XCAN Grain Pool Limited
ranked 85th, with revenues of over $1.8 billion.
Other major federally incorporated co-ops include Agrifoods
International Cooperative Ltd., Co-op Atlantic, Western
Co-operative Fertilizers Ltd. and Interprovincial Cooperative
Ltd.
These co-operatives compete directly with business corporations,
whether Canadian or foreign. They need the flexibility and
certainty of good marketplace framework laws so they can respond
to the changes of and competition in the domestic and global
economies. They need the flexibility of good marketplace
framework laws to enhance growth and create more jobs for
Canadians.
When it was first introduced in 1970, 27 years ago, the Canada
Co-operative Associations Act was the first national legislation
specifically developed for co-operatives. It was modelled
primarily on the Canada Corporations Act, the federal law
regulating business corporations at the time. Business corporate
law has been revised substantially since 1970 but the Canada
Co-operative Associations Act has not been amended significantly
since it was first passed. In the meantime co-operatives have
continued to change and evolve.
Provincial legislation regarding co-operatives has continued to
change and evolve as provincial governments update their
legislation. The result is that the co-operative sector has come
to the federal government to inform us that the current federal
act is no longer suitable to meet the business needs of Canadian
co-operatives, not for today and certainly not for the future.
1805
Let me give an example of that. Some co-operatives find the
present act to be very restrictive with regard to access to
capital sources and corporate arrangements. As a result, some
co-operatives have had to seek special legislation to obtain an
acceptable corporate statute law for their operation.
This method of legislative reform is expensive. It is
inefficient and does not result in changes that are available to
all co-operatives right across the co-op spectrum.
Bill C-5 strengthens and clarifies the corporate governance
rules relating to co-operatives. It enhances the ability of
co-operatives to carry out business fairly, efficiently and
effectively.
Co-operatives are a powerful form of business organization. They
contribute greatly to the growth, jobs and prosperity of many
communities right across Canada. Modernized legislation will
ensure that co-operatives have the legislative and regulatory
environment to achieve their full potential in contributing to
the wealth of the country in both rural and urban Canada.
The users of co-operative legislation, the co-operative sector,
told us it needed changes to the act. The Canadian Co-operative
Association, in association with le Conseil canadien de la
coopération, has spent several years developing draft model
legislation. The associations went to the co-operative movement
to discuss this draft model. They built a consensus. Then they
came to the federal government and in effect said what needed to
be changed and the way they thought it should be done. They were
explicit and we tried to respond to their suggestions.
The co-operative movement had another opportunity to provide
input along with all Canadians who were concerned about effective
marketplace framework laws for co-ops.
Industry Canada and Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada released a
consultation paper in September 1996, a little more than a year
ago. They invited all parties who were interested to submit
comments or suggestions. The paper presented a number of key
suggestions as guidelines. They helped solicit comments on the
suitability of the proposals as well as stimulated discussion
about what should be included in the new federal co-operative
legislation.
Before closing I would like to review some great co-op success
stories. There are a number of them. They are not all federally
incorporated co-operatives. For example, Agropur is Canada's
largest fine cheese and whey manufacturer and distributor. It
operates in the yogurt and fresh desert sector through Ultima
Foods Inc., a company co-owned with Agrifoods International
Co-operative Ltd. from British Columbia. In 1995 Agropur had
sales of over $1 billion and 4,500 members and 2,200 employees.
The Fogo Island Co-operative Society Limited was formed in 1967
to salvage the economy in Fogo Island, Newfoundland. By 1994 the
co-op had grown to 1,234 members and 500 employees.
In Alberta electricity and gas distribution co-operatives have
been quite successful. At one time the rural electrification
program carried out by co-operatives in Alberta accounted for
about 90% of the electricity supplied to Alberta farmers.
In recent years as depreciated assets have had to be replaced
many of these co-operatives have sold their remaining assets and
responsibilities to power companies, resulting in a decline in
the number of co-operatives in this sector during the past
decade.
In the meantime natural gas co-ops increasingly supply the rural
areas of Alberta. In 1995 these co-ops accounted for over 54% of
the total sales of energy co-operatives in Canada.
I could go on listing a number of other success stories.
There are a lot of them out there.
1810
The co-op movement is very successful. We can all be very proud
of what has taken place in that field. We expect further
successes in the future. I am sure when the bill ultimately
becomes law will contribute to further successes in the co-op
movement.
I look forward to further examination of the bill when it is
before committee.
* * *
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Bob Kilger (Stormont—Dundas, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise on a point of order. There have been discussions among the
members concerned and among representatives of all parties. I
believe there would be unanimous consent for the House to make
the following order:
That Bill C-202, now standing in the name of the hon. member for
Pierrefonds—Dollard, be kept in its place on the Order Paper but
put down in the name of the hon. member for
Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle instead.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Does the hon. member
have unanimous consent of the House to move the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The House has heard
the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the house to
adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to)
* * *
CANADA CO-OPERATIVES ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-5, an
act respecting co-operatives, be read the second time and
referred to a committee.
Mr. Howard Hilstrom (Selkirk—Interlake, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, Manitoba has many co-operatives. I happen to be a
member of the Red River co-op located in Arborg and Teulon
districts. I wonder how many other members of the House are
members of a co-op and show their support through actual
financial support.
I will leave that aside for a moment. The Manitoba Pool
Elevators has a grain terminal at the end of a rail line owned by
the CPR which runs up to the town of Arborg. This line is
currently in the process of being abandoned. At some point it
will be offered for sale to the federal government. I am not
sure what the federal government's intentions are when that is
done. The ultimate users of the line are the co-op members in
that district.
My question would be along the lines of whether the provisions
of the bill would assist co-op members to raise the capital
necessary to buy this line and maybe operate it as a short line
railway.
Mr. John Harvard: Mr. Speaker, I too am a member of a
co-op. I just pulled my membership card out of my wallet. It is
the Red River Co-operative Ltd. My membership number is 113284.
I have also been a—
Mr. Bob Kilger: Has it expired yet?
Mr. John Harvard: I do not know. It is in my wife's
name. If it has expired she takes full responsibility.
I have been a member of the Astra Credit Union in the city of
Winnipeg for I do not know how many years and it serves me very
well.
With regard to the concern raised by the hon. member for
Selkirk—Interlake, I hope the particular matter would be
addressed by the bill.
However it would be more appropriate for him or one of his party
members to raise that question at committee. I am quite sure he
could get the technical answer to the question.
[Translation]
Mr. Yves Rocheleau (Trois-Rivières, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased
to rise, at this late hour, to speak to Bill C-5, which however dry it
may be, is still very important for both Canada's and Quebec's
economies, even though the co-operative movement, which comes under
federal law in Quebec, is not a strong presence under a federal charter.
The Bloc Quebecois supports this bill and will act as spokesperson
for the co-operative movement in Canada and Quebec, which, after
consultation, supports the bill in its entirety.
I would like to take this opportunity to salute the management and
staff of the Caisse populaire Sainte-Madeleine, of which I am a member.
I became the thousandth member in the early 1950s, and my father, Raoul
Rocheleau, was a founding member in the 1940s.
1815
I would also like to acknowledge the management and staff of the
Fédération des caisses populaires de la région de la Mauricie, who do an
extraordinary job in regional development, and to the management and
staff of each of the caisses populaires in the riding of Trois-Rivières,
which do a most effective job in their areas. In fact, I would say they
make our constituents throughout the area feel more secure.
The caisses populaires and the Mouvement Desjardins form one of our
major institutions, along with other major co-operatives, such as Agropur
or the Coopérative fédérée de Québec, which are booming and continually
growing both at home and abroad.
There are of course other kinds of co-operatives—housing,
consumer protection and worker co-operatives—with new ones being
developed all the time, particularly in the area of the new economy
where Quebeckers are in the forefront technologically through their
co-operative movement.
The Mouvement Desjardins is a jewel in Quebec's economic crown. We
might well ask where Quebec would be economically if there were no
Mouvement Desjardins.
As proof, I have two accounts, which recently came to my attention, one
personal and the other more a collective experience. The collective one
is contained in the account of Mr. Ricardo Petrella, who spoke recently
at a conference in Quebec City on social democracy.
As a European academic, a humanist, a thinker, a renowned
philosopher and president of the club of Lisbon, he expressed the hope
that the Mouvement Desjardins would not only continue to grow but that
the Quebec co-operative movement, which is exemplary, would also continue
to grow. However, he encouraged the management of the Mouvement
Desjardins—and I urge them to heed his advice—to retain its truly
co-operative quality in the face of the current trend to focus more on
business.
These are the words of a credible individual, who is looking at the
Mouvement Desjardins from outside and considers Quebeckers to be in an
enviable position.
Another person who had good things to say was the British
consul posted to Montreal, whom I recently had the honour to host
in my riding. As he was going past the building of the Fédération
des caisses populaires Desjardins, which I mentioned earlier, he
interrupted me to say: “Yes, I know the Mouvement Desjardins. It
is one of the very fine achievements of the Quebec people and is
known internationally”. The consul, Mr. Rawlinson, praised it
highly, and without prompting.
The Mouvement Desjardins has an international presence,
particularly in developing countries in Africa, where, as in
Quebec, the co-operative approach has helped give people more
control over their destinies. One might well wonder what would
have become of these people in Africa, and in Quebec, if they had
not had the good sense, and the backing of the Mouvement Desjardins
and its human resources, to take charge of their destiny by means
of co-operatives.
I would, however, like to draw your attention to some
reservations that the Bloc Quebecois has about certain clauses,
particularly clause 3 regarding the purpose of the co-operative,
which could have been confusing. I will read it rapidly:
3. (1) The purposes of this Act are
(a) to set out the law applicable to the business endeavours
of persons who have associated themselves in a democratic
manner to carry on a common purpose; and
(b) to advance the cause of uniformity of co-operative business
law in Canada.
(2) No co-operative may be incorporated under this Act unless
(a) it will carry on its undertaking in two or more provinces;
This represents a victory by the co-operative movement, because
the government initially intended to drop this clause, present in
the earlier bill, which could have resulted in confusion in
communities faced with both federally and provincially incorporated
co-operatives for the same product.
1820
In Quebec, in any case, it appears that this way was not desirable,
and fortunately it appears that the government understood the message
sent it.
Nevertheless, there is a word in clause 3 that poses a threat, in
our opinion, and that word is “uniformity”. Uniformity, in the mouth of
the federal government, means a lot of things. It can mean hegemony and
centralization as we saw in the case of the securities commission and in
the case of health care, where the government withdrew in financial
terms but wanted to maintain national standards.
We also saw it with the rumours of the federal government wanting to set
up income collection agencies for the country as a whole, eliminating
departments of revenue, including that of Quebec. Therefore, when a word
like “uniformity” is used, it is cause for concern or at least for
finding out the political will behind its use.
Clause 122 on distribution at dissolution contains a broad
principle, which provides that the remaining property of a co-operative
is to be distributed among the members. There are, however, two
exceptions to this. One appears in clause 354 on housing co-operatives
and the other appears in clause 361 on worker co-operatives.
In the case of housing co-operatives, without any explanation, the
clause provides that any remaining property is to be distributed to
other housing co-operatives rather than to members.
There is no explanation. Perhaps this could be explained in committee
soon.
Clause 361 on worker co-operatives provides that, rather than apply
the general principle, at least 20% of the remaining property is to be
distributed to another co-operative or a charitable entity before any
distribution is made to members. Here again things seem a bit arbitrary.
There is no explanation for the double standards, where two types
of major co-operatives, housing and worker co-operatives, are treated
differently from what is provided for in the general principle applied
to co-operatives on distribution at dissolution.
I conclude on this point by saying that the co-operative movement
serves as a sort of insurance for people against the neo-liberal current
in which people are increasingly divided, singled out and where
individualism counts most, where governments are subjugated and where
the social safety net is increasingly in jeopardy. The co-operative
approach is doubtless the way to the future for people, who will learn
to work together to develop solidarity from day one in their own
community recognizing that mutual support and not the need to dominate
is the way to success and to greater social justice.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is the House ready
for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is it the pleasure
of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: On division.
(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to
a committee)
Hon. Don Boudria (Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I think you would find
unanimous consent to call it 6.30 p.m.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is there unanimous
consent to call it 6.30 p.m.?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
1825
[English]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to
have been moved
HEALTH
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, on October 6 I posed a question to the Minister of
Health as a follow-up to a number of other questions pertaining
to the cuts to the drug and food research labs in the health
protection branch of the Department of Health. These cuts took
place on the sly, in secret. They were not presented to
parliament, not presented publicly, but done in the dead of
summer by the Minister of Health at the very time he was
announcing publicly that cuts were over.
Since the cuts were carried out in July, which I might add were
not announced publicly contrary to the minister's statement on
September 24 when he suggested he was placing a moratorium on the
whole area.
The information about the cuts and the news of the devastation
to our health protection branch came about as a result of
conscientious scientists who are concerned about the health and
safety of the drug and food supply of Canadians. It came about
as a result of public pressure and as the result of political
outcry. It also came about as a result of good in depth research
by the media.
At the beginning of this Parliament the minister succumbed
somewhat to that pressure and announced a moratorium on some of
the cuts and proposed changes. Today, one month later, the
Minister of Health puts out a release announcing that he would do
what he said he would do on September 24, 1997.
It will probably come as no surprise to members of the House
that our concerns are still as relevant, as serious and as deep
rooted as they ever were. Despite this announcement Canadians
remain deeply concerned. Let me give four quick reasons for that
concern.
First, in terms of this decision and on every decision of
crucial importance to Canadians the government has operated on
the basis of a very secretive, very undemocratic and almost
despotic approach.
Second, for three to four months the government caused a great
deal of uncertainty and instability to reign over the health
protection branch. That uncertainty was demoralizing to
scientists and upsetting to those who value the work they are
doing and want to contribute to society.
Third, the drug research lab remains closed. There has been no
attempt by the government to address that issue. It is of deep
importance to the health and safety of Canadians on matters
pertaining to drugs.
Fourth, we are still left with a very large question. Is the
announcement today but a temporary reprieve from a much longer
term, very deep rooted agenda to move toward privatization and
deregulation in the health protection branch as a whole?
I conclude by referring to a document from the department which
outlines proposals to look at cost saving measures, privatization
and ways to reduce the liability of the department, all contrary
to the original purpose of the health protection branch and
contrary to the very significant role performed by the drug and
food research labs. Certainly it is contrary to the intent and
spirit of the Food and Drug Protection Act.
I remain concerned and I look forward to the government
addressing these issues on an urgent basis.
Mr. Joseph Volpe (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I applaud the member's attempts,
grudgingly as they were, to recognize that the minister makes
decisions on the basis of good, sound evidence, data, careful
study and analysis.
As well I am glad that she acknowledged the minister announced
today the reinstatement of the majority of the 24 projects in the
food programs branch initially slated for termination last July.
All these projects will be restarted with the exception of five
that would require the use of research animals part way through
the project.
The projects involving the use of research monkeys will be
considered by the Royal Society of Canada as part of its study in
the animal research division. They will also be submitted to a
science advisory board.
The board will be appointed shortly by the Minister of Health to
provide him with the expert advice on how Health Canada's
protection program can be strengthened.
1830
[Translation]
Not only where the food research projects re-established, but the
moratorium also re-establishes the projects and programs in other
sectors of the health protection program and ensures their continuance.
[English]
These announcements underscore the Minister of Health's
commitment that his bottom line is the health and safety of
Canadians. The moratorium stabilizes the health protection
program to ensure that a three-year project to review and
strengthen the science and regulatory capacity of the health
protection program is as comprehensive as possible.
The Canadian public must be reassured that its health and safety
is of paramount importance and that the scientific capacity of
the health protection program remains strong.
Out of a staff of 2,100 individuals, the health protection
branch has some 1,300 scientists and professional personnel. The
moratorium and the scientific review will further strengthen this
capacity for the health protection program of the future.
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Derrek Konrad (Prince Albert, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, on
October 10 I asked a very specific question of the Minister of
Health. The minister chose to answer a question that was not
asked. Today I wish to put my question to the minister again and
trust that the response will address the question asked.
In the report of auditor general some alarming facts were
reported in the chapter on aboriginal health. In the years
between 1986 and 1996 many accounts of prescription drug abuse
were reported among aboriginal people. I was amazed to read that
the Department of Health has known about this for 10 years.
For background I would like to review part of minister's
response to a very specific question. He said:
It is true this problem has been known for 10 years. Throughout
that time the health department has worked with provincial
authorities and with the First Nations to address the problem.
By the end of this year, December 31, we will have in place
technology across the country to help pharmacists detect abuse
and reduce the problem the member refers to.
That is nice. Here are the facts of a real tragedy. The report
of the auditor general shows that in one three-month period
15,000 aboriginal people went to three or more pharmacies, 1,600
obtained more than 15 drugs and over 700 people had 50
prescriptions or more.
For 10 years a very serious health problem, purported to have
caused deaths, has been neglected by those charged with the
responsibility for the care of Canada's aboriginals.
My question is not what wonderful things the government is going
to do to solve the problem. My question is very clear and I would
like a clear answer in response.
Has the minister identified those in his department responsible
for overlooking this very serious matter for 10 years and what,
if any, disciplinary actions or legal sanctions have been taken
or are contemplated by his department?
Mr. Joseph Volpe (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member wants
some indication of what has been happening.
Let me reiterate what was said in the House on October 10.
Specifically, Health Canada has been working on this problem for
a number of years and now has in place, in over 50% of the
pharmacies across the country, a state of the art point of sale
adjudication system. By the end of this calendar year this
system will be in place in all pharmacies. It will eliminate
most of the problems identified by the auditor general.
In addition, the drug utilization review report has been
developed which allows Health Canada to identify potential abuse
situations for physicians, pharmacists and clients. This system
ensures that all those involved can be alerted and that
appropriate follow-up action initiated to address situations
where abuse is identified. In fact, that abuse occurs in a very
limited number of cases. When one looks at the statistics in the
auditor general's report, it would appear that some 98% of the
time First Nations utilize non-insured health benefits drug
programs in an appropriate fashion. No one wishes to condone any
abuse.
Health Canada continues to develop advanced systems, technology
and an appropriate review processes to ensure that all those who
are involved are aware and alerted to the issues of abuse. It
must be clearly understood that addressing these problems is a
joint responsibility of Health Canada, physicians, pharmacists,
provincial licensing bodies and First Nations communities.
1835
It would be unfortunate to stigmatize First Nations citizens as
being the problem when it comes to the issue of prescription drug
abuse. Without the diligent co-operation of providers and
practitioners, this problem will not be completely resolved.
[Translation]
The department's staff worked with the first nations to ensure they
better understand the scope of the problem so strategies may be
developed to resolve matters in the community itself.
[English]
I emphasize this is a complex problem. Abuse exists but it does
so in a very small percentage of cases. Simply designing a
system, no matter how advanced, will only produce maximum results
if all the various jurisdictions collaborate to create an
environment where there is zero tolerance and zero opportunity
for abuse.
INTERNATIONAL TRADE
Ms. Bonnie Brown (Oakville, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, thank you
for this second opportunity to talk about the multilateral
agreement on investment.
Any international agreement on investment, once achieved, will
take us another step further down the road toward globalization
of all economic activity. Some people view this as a positive
step but I do not perceive either a broad knowledge of this
agreement or a broad consensus on its value.
While among the business elite it is politically correct to see
free trade of any kind as a good thing, some Canadians remain
unconvinced. For example, those who lost their good
manufacturing jobs south of the border feel bruised by the free
trade agreement of 1989 and the NAFTA of 1994. Naturally they
are worried about further steps toward globalization.
Beyond that group there is a larger group of Canadians. This
group feels that all the repercussions of NAFTA have not yet been
felt and that the collection and analysis of data on its effects
have not been presented to them. They remember what was promised
if they took the leap of faith and went for free trade on this
continent. They were promised free access to the large market to
the south. That access and the resulting increase in business was
supposed to give us economies of scale, improve our productivity
and thereby make us more competitive in the new global economy.
Leaders in the steel industry tell me that the promised access
on a level playing field to U.S. markets is still blocked by
irritants based on American law. So certainly in one of our
primary industries the current agreement with the U.S. and Mexico
did not deliver the promised access.
We all agree that the key to competitiveness and success in the
global marketplace is productivity. Has Canadian productivity
increased as a result of NAFTA? Two respected columnists in two
different newspapers have said no. Before free trade, Canadian
productivity was under 10% less than American productivity, but
today Canadian productivity is 20% less than American
productivity. I am aware that exports and investment are both up
but most economists agree that it is due to our low Canadian
dollar and our low interest rates, not free trade.
The MAI is supposed to bring in one set of rules to replace the
multitude of agreements in place today. As a medium sized
economy, a rules based system should work to Canada's advantage.
But that is only true if the rules represent our values, our
mixed economy and our business culture, not the cutthroat values
of the unregulated marketplace held up by some as the best
environment for business.
I believe Canadians are worried about the impact of the further
globalization represented by the MAI. Canadians agreed to the
free trade agreement as a leap of faith. They agreed to NAFTA
accompanied by definitions of subsidy and dumping, definitions
that have not yet been agreed upon. I do not believe Canadians
are willing to buy another deal arranged behind closed doors,
then delivered as an unamendable package to be fast tracked
through Parliament.
How is the minister going to ensure that all interested
Canadians are made aware of the controversial aspects of MAI and
have an opportunity to express their opinions before the MAI
package emerges from the negotiations now under way in Europe?
Mr. Julian Reed (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for
International Trade, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if Canada has
learned any lesson in the last 10 years, it is that having rules
for trade and for interactions between countries have been to
Canada's benefit. I should point out that the free trade
agreement with the United States, which is 10 years old this
year, has actually resulted in a doubling of trade with the
United States.
1840
One of the advantages when we have ground rules is that we have
dispute settling mechanisms. It is true that not every
transaction is 100% and entirely smooth, but to have rules in
place has proven to be a benefit to the country, perhaps because
of our smaller size and that we do not have to participate in the
jungle of international trade.
The government has been very forward in trying to put together
an international multilateral agreement on investment. The
negotiations have been taking place for the last three or four
years. However it must go on record that negotiators are still
at the point where they are negotiating what it is they want to
negotiate. Those negotiations will not begin until next January.
The government has put in place a very comprehensive
consultative process committed to ensuring the opportunity for
full public discussion on the proposed MAI. It was initiated at
the same time that MAI negotiations commenced in 1995.
Provincial officials are now consulted through regular meetings.
There are conference calls. The consultation process is
intensifying and will continue to do so until an agreement is
reached.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The motion to
adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted.
Accordingly the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10
a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 6.41 p.m.)