36th Parliament, 1st Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 69
CONTENTS
Monday, March 9, 1998
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
1100
| THE BUDGET
|
| Financial Statement of Minister of Finance
|
| Budget Motion
|
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
1105
1110
1115
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
1120
| Mr. Werner Schmidt |
1125
1130
| Mr. Tony Valeri |
1135
| Mr. Andrew Telegdi |
| Hon. Hedy Fry |
1140
1145
1150
1155
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
1200
| Ms. Libby Davies |
| Mr. Jim Gouk |
| Mr. Dick Harris |
1205
| Mr. Dick Harris |
1210
1215
| Mr. Tony Valeri |
1220
| Mr. Darrel Stinson |
| Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
1225
1230
| Mr. John Richardson |
| Mr. Andrew Telegdi |
1235
| Hon. Andy Scott |
1240
1245
| Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand |
1250
| Ms. Libby Davies |
| Mr. Bryon Wilfert |
1255
1300
| Mr. Howard Hilstrom |
1305
| Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand |
| Mr. Paul Bonwick |
| Mr. Gilles-A. Perron |
1310
1315
| Mr. Peter Adams |
1320
| Mr. Tony Valeri |
| Mrs. Pauline Picard |
1325
1330
| Mr. Tony Valeri |
1335
| Mr. Paul Steckle |
1340
1345
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
1350
| Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand |
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
1355
| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| COMMONWEALTH DAY
|
| Mr. Bob Speller |
| INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY
|
| Ms. Val Meredith |
| QUEBEC FLAG
|
| Mr. Robert Bertrand |
1400
| WOMEN HOCKEY
|
| Mr. Steve Mahoney |
| YOUNG OFFENDERS
|
| Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
| INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S WEEK
|
| Mr. Paul Bonwick |
| RAIL TRANSPORT
|
| Mr. Guy St-Julien |
1405
| THE SENATE
|
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
| COMMONWEALTH DAY
|
| Ms. Jean Augustine |
| INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY
|
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
| IMMIGRATION
|
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
| INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY
|
| Ms. Raymonde Folco |
1410
| STATUS OF WOMEN
|
| Mrs. Maud Debien |
| INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S WEEK
|
| Ms. Diane St-Jacques |
| INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY
|
| Ms. Eleni Bakopanos |
| THE BUDGET
|
| Mr. Maurizio Bevilacqua |
| TOBIQUE RIVER
|
| Mr. Gilles Bernier |
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
1415
| THE SENATE
|
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
1420
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
1425
| Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| HEALTH CARE
|
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
1430
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Mike Scott |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Mike Scott |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| CHILD CARE EXPENSES
|
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Jack Ramsay |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
1435
| Mr. Jack Ramsay |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| HEALTH
|
| Mrs. Pauline Picard |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mrs. Pauline Picard |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| FISHERIES
|
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
| Hon. David Anderson |
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
| Hon. David Anderson |
1440
| NATIVE WOMEN
|
| Mr. Claude Bachand |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| THE BUDGET
|
| Mr. John McKay |
| Hon. Hedy Fry |
| FRANCOPHONE GAMES
|
| Mr. Jim Abbott |
| Mrs. Claudette Bradshaw |
| Mr. Jim Abbott |
| Mrs. Claudette Bradshaw |
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
1445
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| FOREIGN AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Nelson Riis |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
| HEALTH CARE
|
| Mr. Rick Borotsik |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Rick Borotsik |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. Claude Drouin |
1450
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
| CANADIAN ARMED FORCES
|
| Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| STATUS OF WOMEN
|
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
| Hon. Hedy Fry |
| PAY EQUITY
|
| Ms. Bev Desjarlais |
| Hon. Marcel Massé |
| HEALTH
|
| Mr. Gilles Bernier |
| Mr. Joseph Volpe |
1455
| FOREIGN AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Andrew Telegdi |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
| TAXATION
|
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| CANADIAN CENTRE AGAINST SEXUAL ABUSE
|
| Mrs. Maud Debien |
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| IMMIGRATION
|
| Ms. Libby Davies |
| Ms. Maria Minna |
1500
| PRIVILEGE
|
| House of Commons
|
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
1505
| Motion
|
| Hon. Don Boudria |
1510
| Mr. Chuck Strahl |
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
1515
1520
| Mr. John Bryden |
| Mr. Benoît Serré |
1525
| Mr. Nelson Riis |
| Mr. Dan McTeague |
1530
| Mr. Garry Breitkreuz |
| Mr. Ken Epp |
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
1535
| Mr. Derek Lee |
1540
| Mr. Ivan Grose |
| Suspension of Sitting
|
1610
| Sitting Resumed
|
| Speaker's Ruling
|
| The Speaker |
| HOUSE OF COMMONS
|
| Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs
|
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Motion
|
1615
| Hon. Don Boudria |
1620
| Mr. Jim Abbott |
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
1625
1630
| Mr. Nelson Riis |
1635
| Mr. Bill Casey |
1640
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| Mr. Chuck Strahl |
1645
1650
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
1655
| The Speaker |
| Mr. John Bryden |
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
1700
| Mr. Dennis J. Mills |
1705
1710
| Mr. Pierre de Savoye |
1715
| Amendment
|
1720
| Mr. Bob Kilger |
| Motion
|
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
| ORDER IN COUNCIL APPOINTMENTS
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
1725
| SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES (B)
|
| CRIMINAL CODE
|
| Bill C-365. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Dick Harris |
| INCOME TAX ACT
|
| Bill C-366. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
1730
| MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY ACT
|
| Bill C-367. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Dan McTeague |
| SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES (B)
|
| Reference to Standing Committees
|
| Hon. Marcel Massé |
| Motion
|
| PETITIONS
|
| Taxation
|
| Mr. Nelson Riis |
| Multilateral Agreement on Investment
|
| Mr. Nelson Riis |
| Pensions
|
| Mr. Nelson Riis |
1735
| Health
|
| Mr. Philip Mayfield |
| Public Safety
|
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
| Young Offenders
|
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
| Age of Consent
|
| Mr. Chuck Cadman |
| Canadian Radio and Television Commission
|
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| Mr. Tony Valeri |
| Mr. Tony Valeri |
| Mr. Tony Valeri |
| Hon. Marcel Massé |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURN
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
1740
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| THE BUDGET
|
| Financial Statement of Minister of Finance
|
| Budget motion
|
| Mr. Alex Shepherd |
1745
1750
| Mr. Lee Morrison |
| Mr. Dick Harris |
1755
| Ms. Libby Davies |
1800
1805
| Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain |
1810
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
1815
1845
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
(Division 96)
| Amendment negatived
|
| ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
|
1850
| Banks
|
| Mr. John Solomon |
1855
| Mr. Tony Valeri |
| Fisheries
|
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
1900
| Mr. Wayne Easter |
| Highway System
|
| Mr. Roger Gallaway |
| Mr. Stan Keyes |
1905
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 69
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Monday, March 9, 1998
The House met at 11 a.m.
Prayers
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
1100
[English]
THE BUDGET
FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF MINISTER OF FINANCE
The House resumed from February 26 consideration of the motion
that this House approves in general the budgetary policy of the
government; and of the amendment.
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
it is with pleasure that I rise to comment on the government's
budget. It is a budget which I see as a missed opportunity, a
shallow budget and it does not deal with the issues.
However, let us deal with the positives. In most things there
are positives and negatives. The positives will be brief. This
is the first balanced budget in 28 years, something we can all
celebrate and be proud of.
The next question, after a balanced budget, we have to ask
ourselves is what are we going to do with the surplus, if there
is any, and how are we going to go in the years ahead.
I want to inform the House that I did a poll in December and
received just short of 2,500 responses.
An overwhelming number of people from Saanich—Gulf Islands
responded to the poll.
1105
One of the questions I asked was what we should be doing with
any future surpluses. I asked is our spending just right, do we
need tax relief, do we need debt reduction, what should the
priorities be.
I want to inform the House that 95% of the 2,500 respondents
from Saanich—Gulf Islands stated very clearly that the
priorities have to be lower taxes and debt reduction. This
government does not have it yet.
Now we are going to the downside of the budget. It was actually
2,491 respondents who replied to the survey. What we have, and
it scares me, is a bunch of ministers who are now lined up at the
Prime Minister's door with their Christmas wish lists, and this
government has just gone into a spending binge like it has never
seen money before. That really scares me.
What we saw in this new budget is $11 billion for spending over
the next three years. There are a number of my colleagues around
me from British Columbia. If anybody can talk about high taxes
in this country, British Columbians can. They are crippling the
economy. The British Columbia economy will, out of all the
provinces in this country, have the best economic growth. Why? We
are one of the highest taxed provinces.
That has to start out of this House. This House has to lower
the taxes. The government has a priority. What have we seen?
Not lower taxes, but this is the very government that has brought
tax increases which caused the downturn in the recession of
British Columbia.
We have seen the single largest tax increase, the Canada pension
plan increase. This government is proud of it. It is one tax
increase after another. Yet we see the minister stand up, very
proud of his so-called tax reductions, but they are
insignificant. Those members stand up and go on and on. We have
the new millennium fund. They talk about that providing an
education for students, giving them opportunities.
If the so-called slush fund of the Prime Minister is dissected
and if we ask what it will do for students, we will see that it
will help a handful of them. A whopping 6% of all the students
are going to see one dime of that money. The other 94% will not
see five cents worth of it. The government has not addressed any
of the real problems at all.
The other factor the government did not address is the debt. We
know we need tax relief. Canadians are telling us loud and clear
that we still have a massive debt in this country.
This government since 1993 has added $75 billion to this debt.
Every Canadian taxpayer's first $3,200 goes to pay interest on
the debt. That does not talk about paying down the debt. It the
first $3,200 that people send into this House right here. There
is something wrong and this government has to make it a priority.
There is no money allocated to debt reduction. We have seen the
Prime Minister say we will put $3 billion into this new fund and
after three years we will decide if we want to put it on the
debt.
The government has no vision. It has no plan. It does not know
which programs and how long the wish lists are of its ministers.
It wants to make sure it has enough money in this little fund to
accommodate all the wish lists first. Then, and it is a big if,
it is a maybe, like everything with this government, it will tell
us if it will put anything on debt reduction.
I do not have a full 10 minutes since I spoke for a few minutes
last time, therefore I will go right to the back end. This is
what disturbs me the most regarding this budget.
We have heard the word discrimination used in this House. If we
want to talk about discrimination, here is a budget that is
discriminatory. It really troubles me.
This government has not only failed to address the importance of
parents who choose to stay home to raise their children and the
value they bring into society, but it is discriminating against
them, which is worse.
1110
The government has increased the limits for child care expense
deductions to $7,000 for children under age 7 and to $4,000 for
children ages 7 to 16. These deductions are only available to
people if they are working. When a person chooses to stay home
and care for their families, it is in my view probably the single
most important role we have in our society today, and this
government puts zero importance on that. It is an absolute
disgrace.
The Liberals should be ashamed of themselves. They can sit over
there and hang their heads, which they should. They not only
failed to address the important role stay at home parents play in
society today, but they made it worse for them.
There are so many areas in our tax act which could allow one
parent who recognizes the importance, value and contribution this
makes to our society to stay at home. I have had many personal
experiences of these things happening in society. When these
people apply for a bank loan they are asked what they do. They
say, for example, “I am just a housewife”.
We have a responsibility in this House to change this and make
it a priority. However, there is absolutely nothing in this
budget which does that. I think this is an absolute disgrace.
The government should scrap the refundable child care tax credit
and make it available to all families' children whether the
parent is working or not. Maybe that stay at home parent, who
has been working a lot more hours than anyone who goes out into
the workforce, wants a day to themselves and be able to put their
children in child care. Maybe they would like one day a week to
do something. But they do not get that chance. If someone is
working the government will pay for day care but it will not look
after the child care expenses for the stay at home mom.
We often talk about crime, which is a serious problem. My hon.
colleague from Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca introduced a private
member's motion a few weeks ago concerning crime prevention as
opposed to crime management. I suggest that this goes to the
very root cause of some of our societal problems. We need to
have people who place importance on the value of raising children
in the home.
I appreciate that not all parents can do that. It is very
expensive in our society today and many families are forced to
have two incomes to survive. However, they at least should not
be discriminated against. They should be able to choose. They
have enough of a challenge living on one income. We should at
least give equal benefit to those parents who choose to work.
There are a number of issues in this budget but I would like to
remind the government that its number one priority is the
taxpayers and it is high time it gave them some of the dividend
that is due to them.
I saw many media reports that stated the Minister of Finance has
finally balanced the budget. Imagine that, the finance minister
has balanced the budget. I think he is sadly mistaken. It is the
Canadian taxpayer who has balanced the budget. I suggest the
finance minister was probably clueless about this. Six months
ago he was telling us that he had a $17 billion deficit. That
was when the election was called. The minister did not know what
was going on and that was his best guess.
If the truth be known, this government has raised taxes which
are, ironically, all sneaky and hidden taxes. The Liberals stand
up and say they have no real tax increases. However, we have
gone through the list and there are 34 or 35 of these sneaky
hidden tax increases. I have just been advised that there are 37
sneaky and hidden tax increases. This government should be
ashamed of itself. It is time it paid that dividend back to the
Canadian taxpayers and then put some on the debt, which is what
is going to kick start this economy. It is not the minister's
wish list lined up at the Prime Minister's door waiting to spend
this great big pot of money that they can hardly wait to get
their sticky fingers on.
I take interest in the fact that the members on this side of the
House are listening. Hopefully they will take this message back
to their caucus and rethink this one.
1115
Mr. Speaker, I have just been advised that I was supposed to
announce that I was splitting my time. I did announce it at the
beginning of my speech, just before the break. I spoke for three
minutes and I understood I had seven minutes to complete my
speech. There was some confusion.
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member had the advantage of
getting a full 10 minutes on this occasion because he was
starting up following the vote on the amendment to the amendment
which took place. He is now making a new speech on the amendment
which is now the subject of the debate before the House. He got
the benefit of an extra three minute bonanza. I had assumed that
he was going to do a 20 minute today and really let the
government have it. That is fine.
Questions and comments on the hon. member's speech. The hon.
member for Calgary Southeast.
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
I commend the hon. member for Saanich—Gulf Island for his
eloquent remarks.
During his remarks he addressed the question of tax fairness for
stay-at-home families, families that choose to stay at home.
During my election campaign in Calgary Southeast I debated a
Liberal candidate from Calgary West, Alderman David Bronconnier,
who said that by wanting to eliminate the tax disparities that
exist in the tax system for stay-at-home families, namely by
wanting to eliminate the child care tax deduction and replace it
with a refundable credit available to all parents, including
those who stay at home, Reformers wanted to put women barefoot
and pregnant back in the kitchen. I wonder if the hon. member
could comment.
Does he believe that women and men who choose to stay home and
care for their children, who give up the second income, who make
the financial sacrifices and who get no tax recognition of that
effort, does he believe that they are barefoot and pregnant in
the kitchen? Does he dismiss their effort in that kind of
arrogant way or does he believe that they should be treated
fairly by our tax code?
Mr. Gary Lunn: Mr. Speaker, I am glad that it was not me
who heard those comments during the election because I would have
been absolutely disgusted and appalled.
I can give the member a personal experience. My brother-in-law,
who has been married to my sister for four years, chose to stay
home and raise his three daughters while my sister worked as a
teacher. I made it very clear that this is not a gender issue.
We are in the 1990s. Maybe some of the Liberal people who ran in
the election were not aware of that. It is an issue where
families have chosen to stay at home, especially when children
are young and it is so important that they get that important
start and that they get the nurturing, love and caring that they
need and that they get the values.
Some families are just not in the financial situation where they
can. Some have chosen that the second parent will only work half
time because they want to be their for their children to give
them that most important start.
If this government could recognize that there is so much
unfairness in our tax system to these families, it might be able
to have more people stay home if it gave them the same
opportunities that it gives both parents who work.
If my wife went out and got a job for zero money, I would be
further ahead because we would both be working and would be given
different tax incentives which we are not now entitled to. That
is the point. We could deduct $7,000 off our income for child
care expenses. It is incredible.
The situation in my family is we have two very young children,
ages 2 and 4. My wife was a professional and gave up her career.
She would some day love to go back to work. Right now she
believes it is so important for our two children. They need her
at home right now. She is staying at home and gets zero,
absolutely zero. What is even worse is that she does need time
for herself. She does need a half a day. She does need a day.
She would not get the same thing as if somebody takes her
children off to day care. This is only one example. There are
many, many areas in our system today where we do not recognize
the importance of raising children as an important role in
society. This tax unfairness is only one aspect.
1120
We have a very important role to ensure that this gets
recognition. This is one of the most important occupations in
the land. I think it will go a long way to starting to change
this kind of discrimination and tax fairness for all. I am going
to be addressing this in the months ahead and pressing this
government.
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is an
honour and a privilege to enter the debate on the budget and what
has been presented to the House of Commons. There are three
words that I use as a focus for my speech this morning. The three
words are stop, look and listen. These words are addressed to the
Minister of Finance and to the Prime Minister: stop, look and
listen. These are the three words that we often use when we
prepare young people and children when they are going to cross
the street: stop, look and listen before you cross to make sure
that you are safe.
Why have I chosen these three words in terms of the context of a
budget? There are a number of reasons. The first one is the
finance minister should stop increasing the debt to larger than
it is already. He says we have stopped that, we have balanced the
budget, there is not a deficit this year. He did that, he says.
No, he did not do that. He increased taxes and taxpayers balanced
this budget. Fine, we will grant that the deficit continuation
has been stopped. That is good.
Let us go on and ask why it is that it should continue to be
stopped. We tell our children to stop, look and listen because we
love them. Because we cherish them, we want to preserve the good
quality of life that they have. We here in Canada are enjoying a
quality of life that is the envy of many parts of the world. Many
organizations, agencies and countries have declared Canada as the
preferred country in which to live. If we do not stop the
burgeoning of the debt, we are going to be in trouble and we will
lose that preferred point.
We want to go now to the next word, which is look. Look where
the Prime Minister and the finance minister are standing today.
If we look at this very carefully we will recognize almost
immediately that Canada is standing at the precipice of fiscal
disaster. All we need to do is step forward and go into that debt
creation spiral once more and we will create a problem not only
for ourselves but for generations to come and reduce Canada's
position in the world.
Why do I say this? I say this because we need to address a
particular question. What are the social consequences of
maintaining the position of not preparing and stopping this
growth of the debt.
First of all, we should remember that we have in Canada an
absolutely inadequate research funding proposal. I want to draw
attention here to what has happened in terms of our research and
development funding in Canada. In fact, we rank number six and
number 14. Let me list the countries that are in a better
position than we are in terms of spending on R and D. Sweden
spends 2.9% of its GDP on research and development; Japan, 2.87%;
Switzerland, 2.8%; United States, 2.75%; Germany, 2.6%; France,
2.4%; United Kingdom, 2.08%; Finland, 2.2%. Netherlands, Norway,
Denmark, Belgium, Austria, all of them spend more on R and D than
we do.
1125
We claim that we are one of the preferred countries of the
world. We say that we want to be competitive. We want to compete
successfully in the international marketplace. How can we expect
to do this when these other countries are spending more money on
research and development than Canada?
It is impossible for us to maintain that position. Why?
Because Canada is essentially an exporting nation. We depend
upon other countries to buy our products. If they are spending
more money on research and development of new ideas and new
discoveries, how can we hope to compete with them? The time has
come to look at this very seriously.
Then we have the gall of the Minister of Finance telling us that
the research money has been put back into the funding councils
like MRC and NSERC. All that happened is that the money that was
taken away five years ago has been put back.
It has not been put back in one amount. Listen to what the
Minister of Industry said in his recent publication that he sent
to all MPs. New funding he calls this. New funding for the
granting councils will be increased over a three year period
beginning with an additional $120 million in 1998 to 1999,
continuing with $135 million in 1999 to 2000 and levelling off at
$150 million in 2000 to 2001. This will restore the councils'
funding levels to 1994-95. Now is that not an interesting twist
of logic. First of all he starts off with new funding and then
he says this will restore their funding to where it was in
1994-95.
There is no new money here. This is just replacing what they
took away. What does this do? Not only does it threaten our
competitiveness and our ability to innovate, it demoralizes and
challenges, in fact it discourages, the brightest and finest of
our intellectual people. Why? Because the material and
equipment that they need to use to do their research is
inadequate. There is a lack of appreciation for the work that
they are doing, there is decreased motivation to pursue new
ideas.
What do they do? They leave the country to go elsewhere where
their efforts are supported and where they can have better
equipment and where their particular work is encouraged and
developed.
I want to refer to a particular article that was given to me
from the Ottawa Citizen. This is a very serious
development that has taken place. In this instance, the
declining of money for R and D, the story chronicled the
departure of 11 of 17 research scientists. That is well over
half. They went to other nations because of the funding cuts in
Canada. Eight of these went to the United States. We cannot
afford to have this brain drain happen in Canada because that
means our brightest and finest are leaving this country and going
elsewhere.
It is not just research funding that is the problem here. There
is also the question of taxes and salaries. Let us compare a
person earning $50,000 in the United States. That person pays,
in the United States, $4,910 in taxes. In Canada, that same
person earning $50,000 pays $10,647.
Not only is the money there to provide for the equipment and for
the research and development but also in the personal taxes that
these people pay. Is it any wonder that they leave?
We need quality research. We need to develop it further. Let
me point to one particular development at the University of
Saskatoon and the establishment there of the Synchrotron
facility. That needs to be developed and expanded so that it can
do the kinds of things that need to be done in this country.
Medical research has slipped back. The application of new ideas
and the development of new technologies is in jeopardy. That is
not all. The other social costs that come out of this is that
students are unemployed; 16.8% are unemployed. That is far too
high. First of all when they graduate, they carry on their
shoulders a government debt of $20,000 because of the huge debt
that is there. The average student has another $25,000 of
student loans. That is a $45,000 debt charge right off the top
and that poor student has to start paying income taxes the minute
he reaches a salary of $25,000.
What kind of justice, what kind of fairness is that in this
particular country?
1130
Not only do we need to look at the social consequences of not
stopping the marshalling and the growing of the debt but we have
to listen.
In four different high school classes last week I was told for
the first time ever by young people that it was not fair that
those who graduate from post-secondary institutions have to begin
to pay for the debt the government was unable to pay for. The
government spends money on their behalf so that they live a
standard of life they are not prepared to pay for. They think it
is not fair they should be saddled with a tax bill that is so
large they are groaning under its burden.
The time has come for the government to stop wasteful spending,
to stop giving grants and subsidies to business and industry, and
to look at where it is and where it is going. Government should
listen to what the people are saying. It should reduce the debt
and lower taxes.
Mr. Tony Valeri (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I listened attentively to the
comments of my colleague opposite. I want to make a couple of
points regarding the debt.
The debt is certainly declining. The debt to GDP ratio will
decline 63% over the next two years, the largest drop of all G-7
countries.
I want to focus on the stop, look and listen idea put forward by
the hon. member. Yes, we have stopped the deficit. We have
stopped the rise of the debt. Certainly we will continue to look
and listen to Canadians, to reflect Canadian priorities and to
ensure that those priorities are reflected in budgets.
This brings me to my comment about this budget. Essentially it
is an education budget. The hon. member says that we are doing
all these terrible things when in fact we are giving young
Canadians an opportunity.
I draw the attention of the hon. member to the Globe and
Mail article of this morning. It says quite clearly that the
work is going to those who have earned a university degree, a
college diploma or some other form of post-secondary educational
certificate. If young people can do anything to insulate
themselves from joining the unemployed, the data paints a
pervasive picture that the answer can be summed up in one phrase:
stay in school.
We have reinvested in young people, reinvested in the Canadian
priority and provided some vision with respect to education. That
is the linkage that provides competitiveness for this great
country which will bring us into the next millennium.
We could talk about restoring funding to the granting councils.
The member is unequivocally correct that we are restoring funding
to 1994 levels. He must realize—and I am sure he does—that
Canadians have waited 30 years to balance the budget. We have
finally done that. We are reinvesting in Canadian priorities.
How could the member honestly ridicule the budget and say that
it does not reflect Canadian priorities? It does. I draw the
hon. member's attention to the article in the Globe and
Mail. I could pass a copy on for him to read.
Mr. Werner Schmidt: Mr. Speaker, I thank the
parliamentary secretary. I read the article. I know the budget
apparently is balanced. I think that is wonderful. That is
great. The Prime Minister says that there is a millennium
scholarship fund. It is to be a wonderful thing.
Is it not interesting how Liberal logic works? First, they cut
the spending for education penalizing all students. Then they
come in with a great big millennium scholarship fund which will
maybe benefit 6% of students. Is that not interesting?
They take it away from 100% and give it back to 6% and say this
is what they have done for the citizens of Canada. What a bunch
of misleading logic.
Are there some good things in the budget? Have the Liberals
listened? I am glad the hon. parliamentary secretary said that
the deficit has been stopped and that they are going to listen.
Notice he said that they were going to. They have not done it.
They have not demonstrated that in the budget.
The time has come for us to get serious about exactly what we
are going to do. When will government pass a law that says there
shall be no more deficit spending or that it will be a liability
for each MP who voted for going into a deficit position.
We need such a law. We also need to recognize that the people
have said that if there is a surplus it should be used to pay
down the debt and reduce taxes.
We need to get serious about that. We do not need new spending.
1135
We did not hear people ask the government to spend more money.
They have asked for taxes to be cut and the debt to be reduced.
That is what they said absolutely, unequivocally and very clearly
all across the country. The CFIB said it. The Canadian Chamber
of Commerce said it. The Chamber of Commerce in Kelowna said it.
Ordinary citizens on the street say it. Students in the schools
say it. I say it. The official opposition says it. The
government should listen.
Mr. Andrew Telegdi (Kitchener—Waterloo, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the member talked about not spending money. Then he
came after the government about spending money on research and
development. It just does not jibe.
What does he have to say to the president of NSERC, the
president of the NRC, the presidents of the universities in my
riding including the University of Waterloo, Wilfrid Laurier and
Conestoga college, and to students who have praised the budget
for what it does for the future of the country? I do not want to
see him sucking and blowing at the same time.
Mr. Werner Schmidt: Mr. Speaker, we need to put money
into NSERC and into research and development by reallocating
funds.
If the member would have listened carefully as he should have,
he would have heard me say that we need to cut wasteful spending.
EI premiums should be reduced so that we do not have an $8
billion surplus there. We need to do away with grants and
subsidies to industries that do not need them. We need to do
away with the wasteful spending that exists and many duplications
in various departments. Then the money will be there for
reallocation to essential research and development. That is the
answer.
[Translation]
Hon. Hedy Fry (Secretary of State (Multiculturalism) (Status of
Women), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am proud of the fact that, for the
first time in 20 years, we have a balanced budget.
[English]
I am proud to speak to the budget as Secretary of State for
Multiculturalism and the Status of Women and as a member of
parliament from British Columbia.
[Translation]
Balancing the budget was our initial objective, and one we shall
continue to pursue in the next millennium. This balance will
have a profound impact for years to come.
[English]
The budget is not a stand alone budget. It builds on past
budgets. It is a building block for future budgets. The budget
is providing a solid infrastructure for Canada for years to come.
It tries to address the things we need today while it looks for
the things we will need 20 and 25 years down the road. That is
one of the reasons I see it as a very important budget.
The budget builds a strong and stable infrastructure for Canada
in the future, a strong and stable infrastructure for Canada in
terms of its economic growth, its human resource development, and
its ability to have clear committed social programs to assist
those who are disadvantaged or who have barriers to achieve the
opportunities they need to move forward and become contributing
citizens.
The budget therefore builds on youth employment as have past
budgets. It builds on money that was put forward to assist with
child poverty as have past budgets. It assists with tax
incentives and with student loan incentives as have past budgets.
It continues to build on slow changes in tax initiatives. It is
a brick by brick budget. It is a budget by budget budget. It is
a balanced budget. It is a budget of balance because it reflects
the values of equal opportunity and social justice for all
Canadians.
Given the situation we were in, let us not forget that when we
first talked about deficit reduction we promised that in three
years we would bring our deficit down to 3% of GDP. We are now
at four years and we have eliminated our deficit entirely. We
did not only do what we said we would do. In the same very
measured, very controlled, very conservative manner, we managed
to do more than we said we would do.
We have even surpassed our own expectations.
1140
Last year we brought the debt down by $13 billion. We do not
need to be defensive about the budget because it speaks for
itself. We have done something that no other government has done
in 30 years. In the next three years we will have done something
that has not been done in the country for 50 years. We can stand
it up against anything anyone chooses to say about the budget.
We talked about how we would slowly move into debt reduction. We
talked about how we would at the same time not do one thing at
the expense of another. We have looked at how we are building an
economic base and how we are building a social infrastructure. We
have also looked at tax relief.
This is a very measured budget. It cannot do everything for
everyone. That is how we have managed to get to a point we can
be proud of today and to speak about the changes that have been
made in the country over 50 years.
This is not a one fell swoop budget. Some people across the
floor would like us to say “Let us target one thing only and let
the others go by the wayside; let them take care of themselves”.
That is not the Liberal way. The Liberal way is to look at how
we balance things and at how we ensure that we set priorities. We
look at all our communities and the things that are needed across
the board.
We decided as well in the budget that since we could not do
everything all at once we would set our priorities and our
targets so that low income Canadians and moderate income
Canadians are our first priorities.
As the Secretary of State for Status of Women, I want members to
know this is a budget that has listened to the collective voices
of women across the country. It addresses the diversity of
women's needs and priorities at every stage of their lives. Given
that women make up 51% of Canadians, it is completely
unacceptable to decide that we would build a strong country,
build a competitive nation and not make sure 51% contribute to
the social economic growth of the country. No business people
would ever do that. No business people would take 49% of their
resources, stretch them and then ignore the other 51%.
Clearly it is one way of building human resource potential.
According to the Bank of Montreal study last year women are not
victims. Women are employers. Women are able to form
businesses. Women are able to contribute to the economic growth
of the country. In so doing they take the power for themselves
so that they can deal with their lives, move forward and
contribute fully. We have looked at women not only in one phase
of their lives. We have looked at women from students to
entrepreneurs, from single mothers to caregivers.
One of the most significant elements in the budget for women is
the recognition for the first time of unpaid work in the home.
Unpaid work is part of the foundation of our economy. Even by
conservative estimates we know that women do two-thirds of the
unpaid work, community work and volunteer work. When women do
this work it means that the government does not have to pay for
that work to be done by other sectors. It also means that women
are contributing without any reimbursement whatsoever to the
gross domestic product of the country. This was recognized in
the budget. Only one other country in the world has such a
recognition, and that is Norway.
I am extremely proud of the budget. There are those who will
say that value for unpaid work by women is too little or not
enough. We recognize that the budget will be a building block
for future budgets. We have done something extremely historic
and important this time.
The budget proposes that a new caregiver credit will reduce
federal tax for up to $400 for Canadians providing care and
support for elderly or disabled family members. That tax
exemption will also apply to GST and harmonized sales taxes for
any expenses incurred from providing care for a person with
limited means of self-care. It targets people who need help the
most right now.
In the budget we looked at low income families. That was one
place we felt we would start first. We needed to help low income
families, especially low income families with children. Some 85%
of low income families with children are headed by single women
and 65% of those women are living in poverty.
1145
This budget has built on the last budget when we committed $850
million to the child tax benefit. This budget commits another
$850 million over two years. This brings it to a total of $1.7
billion to help low income families with children, which consist
of very many single women.
We also look at how we help women to get an education so they
can become independent workers and can move on if they choose.
It is about choice. This budget is about the most important
thing to Canadians, the ability to choose.
Women with dependants can now go to school and can extend the
education tax credit for part time work. Women with children
tend to go to school part time. This is very important for them.
It also increases the child care expense deduction for part time
schooling.
The opportunities strategy is going to give up to $3,000 a year
in a grant, not a loan, to persons with dependants who are in
financial need. This goes straight to the heart of all of those
women with children or those women who care for someone in the
home and cannot afford to go to school. They are going to be
given money that they will not have to pay back. This is about
building the human resource potential of this country.
The student loan repayment initiative is going to be based on
helping those who are in financial need. This again touches very
many women who are in this particular class.
I heard the millennium student fund being bandied about across
the way. Obviously members do not seem to understand that when
we give money directly to people as we are doing, and if we focus
on people who are in need and who have talent and ability, it
strikes at the heart of what we have all believed as Canadians,
that one day our children will be able to do better than we have
done. This means that children or young people who have ability
and talent but who do not have money will be able to get money so
they can have a post-secondary education, a college education or
skills training in any kind of school. Then they can find work
and put their talent to work for the benefit of this country.
There are so many things in this budget that assist women and
which I am extremely proud of. There are also some things which
as a member of Parliament for British Columbia I am extremely
proud of. I just talked about all of the student initiatives. I
have one of the largest student populations in my riding. All of
the things that are going to happen today, the students who need
loan repayment assistance, the ones who will need to go to school
in the future, the single women students in the riding are going
to be assisted.
There are three universities in my riding and there are many
hospitals which are doing valuable research. The money that has
been given back to the research councils is going to be very
important for many of these universities and hospitals in my
riding. I have already heard from them. They have called me up
to say well done, that they needed this and that it is very
important. It is something that says we believe in the ability
of the creativity of Canadians to continue to lead in the
technological age.
Tax measures are an important tool. We know having done some
very important gender economic indicators with the provinces over
the last two years and in which every province participated, that
income tax assists women. It is one of the most important tools
to equalize women's income. Women do better after taxes than
before.
The tax relief for low and middle income Canadians this budget
provides is good news for millions of men and women across this
country. In fact over the next three years some $7 billion in
tax relief will be provided to low and middle income Canadians.
As of July 1 the government will raise the amount of income that
can be earned tax free by low income single Canadians by $500.
Most of them are women. It will go to $1,000 for a family. I
can assure this House that the women who are partners in those
families will welcome the relief, even if that relief helps to go
to what is putting down money so that their children when they
reach 18 can go to go to university.
We hear those across the way talk about how we have done nothing
about tax relief, that we have done nothing on income tax. It
depends on who you think are your constituents. We think our
constituents happen to be the low and middle income Canadians who
need our assistance right now, not the very well-heeled friends
of my friends across the way.
1150
Effective July 1 some 83% of taxpayers who are earning under
$50,000 will see the 3% general surtax eliminated entirely. For
middle class Canadians and middle class women this is an
extremely important piece of tax relief.
The Bank of Montreal recently said that small and micro
businesses run by women entrepreneurs are increasing at three
times the rate of male entrepreneurs. This budget introduces
changes for self-employed Canadians who cannot incorporate. We
know that these Canadians run very small micro businesses. Many
of them are run by women and nearly always from their homes.
These women cannot incorporate. They will now be able to deduct
health and dental benefits which they would not have been able to
deduct before. That is very significant.
We know that women entrepreneurs earn far less than their male
counterparts. However, last year they created more jobs than the
top 100 Canadian companies. We are talking about job creation.
At the same time we are talking about empowering the people who
are proving to be the best entrepreneurs in the world.
Everyone has been talking about health care. I think I know a
little about health care. It is an issue of vital concern to
many women, to me, as well as to the many women in my
constituency. Not only are women the major consumers of health
care, they make up the bulk of the health care workforce. They
are the health care providers. They have taken responsibility
for many of the health care services which communities can no
longer afford to provide. When the hospitals close down their
acute care units and send people out into the communities, the
people who pick up the slack are women. That is why the tax
credit for caregivers is a very important move.
Important research is being done in my riding. There are also
important things being done elsewhere in British Columbia and
right across the country. Today I heard an hon. member say that
we should not be subsidizing or lending money to businesses in
Canada that do not need it. The initiative taken by Industry
Canada has assisted business innovation in this country.
Businesses have been able to move forward. It has put us at the
forefront of world technology.
Recently in my riding the government lent $305 million to
RADARSAT II which is based in Richmond. This will provide
leading edge technology for mapping the whole world. Canada is
the only country in the world which has been able to achieve this
kind of technology. Just think of the spin-offs which will come
from that kind of loan.
Bombardier just received $2 billion in international business as
a result of a very small loan.
In British Columbia Ballard industries has moved into leading
edge technology with respect to environmental pollution and new
energy sources for cars.
Forty million dollars of loan assistance has brought billions of
dollars from the rest of the world which is looking for Canadian
technology. That provides jobs for Canadians.
We are thinking in a very holistic way. We are not thinking in
a linear way with blinkers on. It is a little difficult for my
friends across the way to take their blinkers off and look in a
broader and more long term way at what we need to do in this
country.
This budget's reaffirmation to address aboriginal issues and
youth unemployment will have an impact on many young people
across the country. We know that Canada's youth are looking for
something which will give them hope for the future. We cannot
simply look at youth as one set of people between the ages of 17
and 25. If we look at the unemployment rates of young people in
this country we will know that aboriginal youth have an
unemployment rate of almost 40% and that visible minority youth
have an unemployment rate of 27%.
1155
We need to understand that some youths in this country face
extraordinary barriers. We are trying to address some of these
barriers. It is not the one size fits all policy. It is not a
let us throw everything out to everyone and see who can catch the
best because it is the people who jump the highest who will
always catch it.
We have to talk about how we marshal for ourselves in the 21st
century a country that is going to build its human resource
potential. It is a country where our young people will take the
talents they have, where our businesses will take the technology
they have, where the 51% of our human resources who are women
will prove to be the employers and will move forward and
contribute to Canada's growth in the way we know they can.
This is a remarkable budget. I am proud to be a member of the
government that has brought this budget down.
The Deputy Speaker: I can see there are a lot of
questions. We have 10 minutes of questions and comments so what
we will do is five one-minute comments and one-minute responses.
That should take up the full 10 minutes.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
that does not leave us much time.
I simply must point out that some of the assertions the minister
made were perhaps a little bit misleading. First, the minister
suggested that the federal government is the first government to
balance a budget in 30 years. I would point out that just the
other day Manitoba announced its fourth balanced budget in a row.
I would point out that Alberta and Saskatchewan have done the
same. I would point out that municipal governments balance their
budgets as a matter of course every year. The government should
not be patting itself on the back so heartily for something that
is regularly done by most governments.
I would also point out that taxpayers are the ones who have
balanced the budget. The member asserted that it was her
government that balanced the budget. However it was taxpayers
overwhelmingly who balanced the budget through higher taxes.
The minister has stated that taxes are going down. In fact when
one includes the hike in CPP premiums and bracket creep, taxes
have been going up each and every year of the government's
mandate. I do not know how the minister can make her assertion.
How can the minister assert that taxes in fact are going down?
When one includes CPP premiums and bracket creep, the effect is
that taxes are actually going up.
Hon. Hedy Fry: Mr. Speaker, the 3% surtax was put on by
the Conservative government ostensibly to bring down the deficit.
What it in fact did was it kept the deficit going up and up and
up. We had promised to take that surtax off and it has now been
taken off. That is going to affect 83% of taxpayers. The 3% may
not be a lot of money to some people in this House but for some
of my constituents it represents a great deal of money.
When we talk about bracket creep and taxes going up, the member
is not taking into consideration the middle income Canadians who
are going to be helped by this measure.
It is very fine to talk about other people who have balanced
their budgets, but we are speaking here about the federal
government. We are the ones who inherited a $42 billion deficit.
[Translation]
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I suspect the
minister does not read the same newspapers we do. This budget
cannot be described as taking a number of realities into
consideration, particularly with the manoeuvrability left to the
government after the many cuts that have been made.
The minister is responsible for the status of women. The $850
million in child tax benefits are far too little. Moreover, a
number of groups, Campaign 2000 for one, are calling for $2
billion to be invested immediately, not two years from now. What
this budget indicates is that a step in this direction will be
taken next year or in two years.
There is therefore no short term strategy in place to help
children, among others.
In my opinion, this budget does not take into consideration the
overlaps in Quebec. As we saw in this morning's newspapers,
students are calling for compensation to adapt a program to the
reality of Quebec. The true problems of students are not being
addressed.
We also know that the pickings were pretty slim where the status
of women was concerned—
The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The hon. secretary of state.
[English]
Hon. Hedy Fry: Mr. Speaker, first and foremost we
probably do not read the same newspapers. The newspapers I read
have an overwhelming number of students saying that this is a
very important budget for them. They have applauded this budget.
Second, we talk about children. If we look at this budget and
take it in isolation, one will recognize that it builds on past
budgets and it is a building block for future budgets. In three
years we would have spent $1.7 billion on the child tax benefit.
That is not in isolation.
1200
Provinces are working in partnership with this government to put
up equivalent amounts of money that will equal $3 billion between
the two levels of government to assist children. The provinces
will look at the services for assisting these children while we
hand them money.
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I
listened to the hon. member and and heard her say that the budget
is remarkable. What is remarkable is that this budget has
absolutely failed poor kids in this country, it has failed the
unemployed, it has failed women and it has failed students.
I would like to ask the minister, if this is such a remarkable
budget, why is it that only 7% of students will be covered
through the millennium fund?
If it is such a remarkable budget why is there nothing in this
budget that addresses women's equality and pay equity? If this
is such a remarkable budget, why is it that poor kids in this
country will have to wait until next year to get a measly 80
cents a day through the national child benefit when we have heard
repeatedly that what is needed is about $2 billion to ensure that
those kids are helped.
What is remarkable is that this budget has failed.
Hon. Hedy Fry: Mr. Speaker, again, I think there must be
some sort of collective mental block across the hall because when
we talk about this budget building on the last budget and being
the building block for future budgets, we are talking right now
about what was promised in the last budget—the $850 million that
will be starting in July and the other $850 million that will
come over the next two years—together with the provinces which
are anteing up money to put into services to help those same
children who live in poverty, there will be a total of $3 billion
over the next three years between the two levels of government.
It's pretty simple math.
Mr. Jim Gouk (West Kootenay—Okanagan, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the secretary of state talked quite a bit about the
millennium fund.
The fact is that this is only going to put about $300 million in
to replace the money lost to the provinces which were the
recipients of a $7 billion cut a year. So it is a small drop in
the bucket.
She said specifically she has a lot of students in her riding,
and to quote her words “who need to be able to go to school
tomorrow”. How does she think that she can stand and talk
positively about a Liberal budget that puts in a small portion of
what was taken away in transfer payments? It is not going to
help people until the year 2000 so it can build a monument for
the Prime Minister.
Hon. Hedy Fry: Mr. Speaker, there are the up to $3,000 a
year grants for students in financial need with dependents.
That is going to be happening now. Perhaps the hon. member
might like to listen to my answer so that maybe in future he will
understand the realities of the budget and not continue to find
some very strange interpretations of it.
Mr. Dick Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, only Liberal arithmetic could talk about this budget
as being a benefit to Canadians.
As a matter of fact, if you look at the budget very
carefully—which we have done and they obviously have not—you
will see that because of the budget there is no net gain for
Canadians. In fact, there is a net detriment to Canadians to the
effect of $4.8 billion in increased taxes by the year 2000 since
the Liberals came to poewr.
I want to specifically go back to the health care issue of which
the member is so proud. The fact is that the Liberals have cut
$7.5 billion out of health care and education since 1993. They
are putting $1.5 billion back into it. That is a net loss of $6
billion.
Even the NDP party can figure out that is a net loss. Why can
the Liberal Party not figure that out?
Hon. Hedy Fry: Mr. Speaker, I might want to point out
that it is Liberal arithmetic that got rid of a $42 billion
deficit in under four years.
That is real arithmetic. That is not imaginary. But you know,
it is interesting to say that there is a sort of tunnel vision
when we talk about the budget. Probably why the arithmetic is
mixed up and our arithmetic managed to do positive stuff is that
when you look at the fact that you are talking about taxes, let
us look at the assistance for the deduction of health and dental
benefits for unincorporated small businesses.
These may mean nothing to hon. members across the way, but it
sure means a lot to a lot of the women in this country who are
trying to make ends meet.
1205
When we talk about the holiday from payroll taxes for people who
hire young people between the ages of 20 and 24 who do not have a
high school education, until the year 2000 there is a holiday
from those taxes. These are real taxes. People pay them. It is a
way of assisting business to be able to help employ young people.
This is real money that is being offered up. I think hon.
members might want to look at some Liberal arithmetic for a
change and learn something.
Mr. Dick Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I will be sharing my time today with the member for
Surrey Central.
It is interesting that the member across the way just finished
talking about this tax relief for business in regard to the EI
premiums. I can tell the hon. member that I was in business for
over 25 years as a small businessman and I never hired one single
person because there was some money available from the
government. I hired additional people because I thought that my
business could improve and make money by having more staff. So
these government programs that the hon. member is talking about
really are not a big incentive for businesses to expand. I want
her to know that, particularly in the small business sector where
the small businessman has to be very cautious in his approach to
expanding, and I have that experience.
I am pleased to speak to the budget today. I have done a
reasonable amount of travelling in my life in Canada, in the U.S.
and in some other countries of the world. What struck me when I
was travelling outside of Canada was how people from some other
parts of the world believe that Canada is a caring country, a
country that looks after its citizens.
Today, across the House, is a government that claims to have the
best interests of Canadians at heart. In the last few months I
have talked to Canadians from all parts of Canada, all walks of
life, all sectors of employment and I have noticed one thing, and
that is that they simply do not buy this line about a caring
Liberal government.
After decades of massive overspending, helped on by their
brothers and sisters in the Tory party, massive debt, the highest
tax rate among industrialized countries in the world, after
seeing education costs skyrocket, after massive tax hikes that
the Canadian people have endured, after watching our health care
system crumble like ancient ruins, after all this there is no way
that this government can sell this idea that they care about the
citizens of this country. This budget will simply harden and
strengthen this opinion that they are not the caring government
that they claim to be.
Let me start at an obvious point: our children. A caring party
would see children as the key to Canada's future. It would want
to make sure that they get the very best start in life possible.
A caring party would make the families of these children the
highest priority in a budget, but the Liberal budget does not do
this.
For instance, the increase in the child tax benefit will not
replace the billions of dollars in cuts to health care and
education that families are having to face now. It will not even
begin to lift our poor families out of poverty because the
increase in benefits, as small as they are, will be taken back
through increased taxes.
For example, the 15% in income for a $21,000 income a year two child
family is taken back by their income tax burden, up 15% since
1992. The increases in the child care expense deduction will not
help families much either, especially—and these were
overlooked—single income families where one parent chooses to
stay home to look after the children. This government treats
single income stay at home parents as second class families in
this country.
The official opposition, the Reform Party, would end this
discrimination by extending the child care deduction to all
parents, including stay at home parents. In short, Reformers
would make staying at home to raise children a choice, not a
sacrifice. That is what Canadians want more.
They want to have choices and they want the freedom and the tools
to do it. Reformers would also increase the spousal amount from
$5,380 to $7,900, levelling the playing field for all parents,
all families.
1210
Our policies in the Reform Party put families first because they
deserve to be first, and certainly they should be first in a
budget by this so-called caring Liberal government. But these
things are not in this government's budget.
Children grow up fast. The first thing you know, they are off
to college and university. Does the Liberal budget help a young
Canadian currently with a $25,000 student loan debt? If the
student is maybe one of the lucky 6% to get the maximum each year
from the Prime Minister's personal trophy, the millennium fund,
their outstanding debt would go down to $10,000. At first glance
that looks good.
That is fine until they go out and get a job and they are
finished university. If they happen to be making the average
industrial wage of $36,900, then whatever help they may have got
through the millennium fund is quickly eaten up by the tax burden
they are going to have to endure as soon as they start working.
Students do get a little tax relief on the debt, but it is
quickly eaten up because over the next 12 years they would pay a
73% CPP tax increase, they would pay every cent and more back to
the government that they ever got from the millennium fund and
they would still have the leftover portion of the student loan.
What we are talking about here is sleight of hand budgeting by
the Liberal Party. On one hand the government gives to students
and on the other hand it takes it back. That is what this budget
represents. What we have here when you do all the math is a zero
net benefit to our Canadian students.
Looked at this way, the millennium fund is sleight of hand
funding for students. It helps only about 6% and it leaves the
current students with heavy debt loads simply out in the cold.
The official opposition has a lot more compassion for the
younger generation than this so-called caring Liberal government.
As a start, we would restore health care and education funding by
putting $4 billion back into it, not the $1.5 billion that the
Liberals have so generously said they were going to. We would
put $4 billion back into it.
This will do a lot more for the students and the Canadians
worrying about their health care than the millennium fund or the
small amount of the $7 billion that the Liberals have cut from
health care and education in the last three years.
Canadians wanted a budget that has some compassion for the
seniors in our country. When it comes to overspending, patronage
or pork-barrelling, these Liberal governments can never be
accused of dragging their feet, but somehow they missed the
seniors.
This budget offers no benefits for Canada's seniors. Two years
ago the Liberals announced the new seniors benefit proposals. Two
years later, now, seniors are still waiting to find out what it
is all about. Two years later, seniors are still wondering how
it is going to affect their retirement plans. When the seniors
benefit kicks in, if it does, seniors will be looking at it,
wondering what it has been all about because there has been
precious little released on it.
They do not know how to plan for their retirement appropriately
to work into the new seniors benefits because they do not know
what is in store for them. They are angry and afraid. For
instance, this great benefit will not even begin to help the
poorest seniors. It will provide them with a scant 17 cents a
day in increased benefits and that is not enough to buy a cup of
coffee in this country.
At the same time, this being zero help to the poor seniors, the
benefit discriminates against the middle income and upper income
seniors by taxing back up to 75% of their personal retirement
savings that they have sacrificed and put away so they can be
secure in their retirement.
What it means is that the poorest seniors will not benefit and
the seniors who make sacrifices in their working career will be
penalized for doing so.
1215
So this is the heart of the matter. Canadians expected a budget
that would respect the challenges and the sacrifices they have
made in their lives. They wanted a budget that tells them that
the government appreciates the challenges they face and thanks
them for the sacrifices they make; for the young boy up on his
father's shoulders looking around believing every dream was
possible; for the students up late at night studying, trying to
make their dreams possible; for the mid-career Canadians hoping
for their dream of a secure retirement; for the seniors who have
had their dream of retirement with dignity shattered. Where in
the budget are the dreams of Canadians? There are no dreams,
only nightmares.
There are high taxation levels, promises of debt reduction that
have been broken and increased spending programs that give ample
evidence that the tax and spend days of the Liberals are back
again. The only thing that happened was that Canadians woke up
to the reality that this Liberal government is not the caring
government it claims to be.
Mr. Tony Valeri (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I have a couple of points. I
find it somewhat amusing to actually have a member of the Reform
Party talk about the fact that this is not a caring government.
I only want to remind the hon. member that some of the documents
that the Reform Party has put out talk about reduction in program
spending to 10.5% of GDP, which equates to $10 billion, another
$10 billion to be found somewhere. The Reform Party talks about
spending more on education and health care and reinvesting in
Canadians when in fact it does not talk about where it is going
to get that money.
The Reform Party offers up a bunch of one time savings that even
the auditor general says are only one time savings. It talks
about ongoing expenditures. It talks about cutting equalization
which will affect the majority of provinces. That is what the
Reform Party is talking about. At the same time it talks about
caring.
It talks about student loans and that this budget does nothing
for students. We spent the last week talking to a number of
university students and college students who talked about the
investment that this government has finally made in education so
that students do have access.
I would like the hon. member to stand up and say that this
budget was wrong when it now allows a student to write off the
interest cost they incur for their education, just like a
business writes off the costs that it would incur to run its
business. What is wrong with that?
The member focuses on the millennium scholarship. It is a seven
point program. The hon. member should take the time to read what
the education package is all about so that he can go out and
speak intelligently with the students in his own riding and not
just focus on one particular part of the strategy that he does
not like. I would submit that Canadian do support it.
Mr. Dick Harris: Madam Speaker, the old Liberal
arithmetic is going full force over there.
The member absolutely knows that the millennium fund is a trophy
for the outgoing prime minister. It is going to benefit only 6%
of the students in this country. What about the other 94% who
will not be able to take part in it? For those 6% it does
benefit, the tax increases this government has put in have
ensured it will get back every single penny and more from those
6% once they start their jobs. That is the fact.
Let us also look at the economy. The one thing the Liberals do
not get as far as building a healthy economy is that there is a
undeniable direct link between lower tax regimes and lower
unemployment and an economic growth. There is a direct link.
Countries with low or even reasonable tax regimes have much lower
unemployment than we have in Canada and they have a healthier
economy that is growing at a better rate than Canada's. These
Liberals do not get that because it is not in their philosophy to
give a reasonable tax regime to Canada. They do not get it.
1220
Mr. Darrel Stinson (Okanagan—Shuswap, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, I have been listening very intensely all morning to the
so-called sharing and caring Liberal government and now I have a
question for the hon. member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley.
I have heard about the money flowing back into education and the
health care system from this government. My understanding is
that it has ripped billions out of this system and is now
basically giving us back pennies in return. I would appreciate
if the hon. member could address this.
Mr. Dick Harris: Madam Speaker, the fact is, to use the
words of the finance minister, that since 1993 the Liberal
government has ripped seven and a half billion dollars out of the
health care and education systems. Now it is looking for the
crown of heroes for putting a billion and a half back. That is a
net loss of six billion dollars. The government is putting the
money back by specifically targeting it for pure political means.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Ref.): Madam Speaker,
I rise on behalf of the people of Surrey Central to voice our
views on the budget. Six provinces already have balanced budget
legislation in place but this government does not. Balanced
budgets should be mandatory for every government by legislation.
It is not the pen of the finance minister filled with the black
ink given to him by the Prime Minister but the Canadian
taxpayers who have made the balanced budget. Seventy per cent
of the deficit was eliminated by the increase in tax revenues.
Canadians now pay 56% more tax than the average of the G-7
countries and 23% more tax than the average of the OECD
countries.
Since it took office, this government has increased taxes 37
times and has squeezed every dollar from the taxpayers. It has
squeezed $48 billion worth of revenue from taxpayers and has
added $83 billion to the huge debt that now stands at $583
billion. This has been accumulated by the mismanagement and lack
of vision of this Liberal government and previous Tory
governments one after the other.
On average Canadian families pay $6,000 per year just to pay the
interest payment of $45 billion on the debt. A third of each
dollar goes to service the debt. A newborn baby is not assured
of good health care, education, a job or a pension. That newborn
baby is assured of one thing, a $20,000 debt. That is shameful
in this country.
This government has made no real effort to give tax relief to
taxpayers or to lay out a plan to pay the huge debt. It is this
debt and the high tax rate that discourage domestic and foreign
investment in Canada. The debt and the high tax rate stagnate
job creation in Canada. The debt and tax rate hinder economic
growth in Canada. The debt and the high tax rate cause the brain
drain in Canada.
Budget day was a martyrdom day for this country. The Liberal
finance minister has sacrificed the future prosperity of Canadian
taxpayers. He has made martyrs out of Canadian taxpayers. If a
budget is balanced by increasing tax revenue alone, it could have
been done 25 years ago. Where was this Prime Minister who was
then finance minister in the Liberal government? Where was that
bottle of black ink 25 years ago if he wanted to balance the
budget?
It has not reduced federal spending at all. It has not pursued
the elimination of waste in the government. This government has
all kinds of credit cards and cheque books even for future
generations and is issuing one cheque after the other.
1225
In this budget the government has already announced 17 new
spending initiatives worth $11 billion. This shows that the
government completely lacks vision and accountability.
The other day the Leader of the Opposition and other colleagues
gave many examples of irresponsible spending by this government.
Let me turn for a minute to my critic role. This budget adds $90
million to foreign aid this year and $50 million to it next year,
while foreign aid donated by other countries around the world has
decreased. The private sector investment is increasing.
By throwing out more money, this government is rewarding the
CIDA minister for her failures, inefficiencies and mismanagement.
The CIDA minister has said before the committee on foreign
affairs and international trade “the cuts in the budget have
made us work smarter”. What a funny quote. Why could her
ministry not work smarter before the cuts were made?
On the other side, on page 29 of red book II it promised that
50% of a surplus would be used to reduce the debt and the other
50% would be used to address social and economic needs through
program expenditures. But this government, like its GST promise,
its jobs, jobs, jobs promise, and like 136 other promises, has
again betrayed the trust of Canadians. We know that Canadians
will not forget this great betrayal by this government.
Two economists from the major banks are saying that the
government is understating its surplus by $5 billion to $6
billion this year and $9 billion to $10 billion next year. This
government should not play political football with the future of
Canadians.
I am also a member of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.
We have been very disappointed with what we have learned about
the political mismanagement by the Liberals of federal government
affairs which were brought, one after the other, before the
committee. According to the Auditor General of Canada, the
Liberals have overstated the 1996-97 federal deficit by $800
million. How? It has paid the $800 million to a dummy
organization which did not even exist in that fiscal year. What
a shame. That $800 million was paid to a company that did not
even exist in that fiscal year.
I have another example. The auditor general insists that the
Liberals eliminate their $20 billion gap between their estimates
and the actual liabilities of the federal government's employee
pensions. The auditor general made it very clear that the $20
billion figure was based on a political decision and not on an
accounting decision. The Liberals are using creative accounting
practices, something no small or medium size business could ever
use.
The auditor general has scolded the Liberals for not following
the generally accepted accounting principles or the public sector
accounting auditing board guidelines. If it is not a cooking of
the books what is it? They should not follow the laws of the
cooks but the laws of the books.
The government should be credible, honest, clear,
straightforward and accountable to Canadians. It must maintain
transparent accounts. This is not leadership by example. How
can Canadians trust this finance minister regarding what he calls
a balanced budget? Why does this minister use a surplus to play
politics with?
Rather than caring about the future of Canadians, I think this
budget looks like a shell game. Canadians cannot be fooled by
this shell game.
1230
A few years ago in Canada on average one parent used to work and
the other parent took care of the children and the family at
home. Nowadays and for some time both parents work and the
average family makes less money. Parents get less time to spend
with their children.
When those children go to school they have to struggle to get
quality education with the competition and it being so expensive.
They go to schools which are famous for drugs, gangs and crime.
When they graduate they have to struggle to get jobs. There is
18% unemployment rate for youth. When they get jobs they go on
the same vicious cycle of paying taxes and in the end when the
time comes for retirement the situation is terrible. There may
be no money left for their pension.
The system is unfair and the government lacks accountability.
The government lacks vision. Every corner of our lives is
mismanaged by big government. It may be the Young Offenders Act.
It may be victim rights. It may be the multilateral agreement on
investment. Whatever we talk about, the government is famous for
mismanagement.
Mr. John Richardson (Perth—Middlesex, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I just listened to a maze of questions that led nowhere.
The member never got out of the maze. The facts and figures he
laid on the table were typical after the fact set-up by Reform
Party. If there was any intelligence I could not find it.
I would like to know the basis of the facts he presented. This
is the number one country in the world for the third year in a
row. It is leading the G-7 in its fiscal responsibilities. It
is looked up to all around the world. However people across the
way are so close to the problem they are blinded by the reality.
I ask the member to give us some facts to support his
statements.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Madam Speaker, the question by the
hon. member suggests that he is out of touch with the books. He
is out of touch with Canadians. He is out of touch with his
constituents who will tell him that Canada is paying 56% more tax
than the average of the G-7 countries. The average Canadian is
paying 23% more tax than the average of all OECD countries.
The hon. member on the other side should spend some time looking
at the auditor general's report. He will find the same facts and
figures I am speaking about in that report. They will show that
the member is out of touch. He should read those books and tell
the finance minister what the auditor general is saying.
Mr. Andrew Telegdi (Kitchener—Waterloo, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, when I listen to the member for Surrey Central it sounds
like he is speaking about a third world country. We have the
best country in the world and there is an historical reason why
that is so.
When I listen to the member talk about credibility I have to ask
him for which party he ran for nomination in the last election.
He lost that nomination and then went over to the Reform. That
is credibility.
He made a comment regarding the auditor general's finding on
$800 million which relate to the infrastructure fund for renewal
of research infrastructure. That $800 million commitment was
made in the last budget. The liability occurred in the last
budget. All the member can criticize is the fact that we were up
front with taxpayers.
We said that we incurred an $800 million liability in the last
budget and that we would experience a debt in that fiscal year.
If that is not honesty in accounting, I do not know what is.
There was a genuine disagreement with the auditor general. Most
members of the public accounts committee disagreed with the
auditor general.
1235
The member opposite who likes to flip-flop from one party to
another is trying to confuse the issue. When will he stand in
the House to acknowledge the fact that Canada is the best country
in the world in which to live? Immigrants and refugees from all
over the world want to come to this country. When will he stand
up for Canada instead of running it down continually?
Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Madam Speaker, I ask the member to
withdraw the false statement he made in the House that I ran for
nomination for another political party. I ran only for one party
and that is the Reform Party. I believe in the principles of the
Reform Party. I ask the member to withdraw the false statement
he just made.
I would like to answer his question. His facts are not right
because he never bothers to read the facts. The Canada
Foundation for Innovation was formed in April 1997. The payment
was made to the foundation on July 31, 1997. The books of the
government closed on March 31. The $800 million is a commitment,
not a liability. The government cannot put commitments on the
books. Liabilities have to be put on the books. If the people
who run private businesses did that they would be thrown into
jail.
I would ask the member to check his facts before he speaks in
the House. I would also ask him to withdraw—
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The time for
questions and comments has expired.
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I am particularly delighted to participate in the 1998
budget debate because the deficit which has plagued us for so
long has finally been vanquished and despair among Canadians of
all ages is giving way to confidence and optimism.
I pay tribute to the Minister of Finance whose leadership in the
past five years in making this extraordinary feat possible—
Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member during this
debate, but a false statement has been made in the House which
damages my personal character and personality. I ask the hon.
member to withdraw the statement. He alleged that I sought the
nomination for another party, which I did not do.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I advise the hon.
member that I will be checking the blues and I will get back to
him as soon as we check the statements made by the other hon.
member.
Hon. Andy Scott: Madam Speaker, I would like to pay
tribute to the Minister of Finance whose leadership over the last
five years has resulted in making this extraordinary feat
possible. Prospects for Canadians have not been as good in a
very long time. It is through the responsible stewardship of the
nation's finances that we have reached the enviable position we
find ourselves in today. One need not go much beyond the various
countries of the world that are glowing in their praise of what
we have been able to accomplish in Canada in very short order.
This remarkable turn of events required discipline in terms of
the leadership of the country but, most important, it required a
considerable sacrifice from rank and file Canadians.
What the government did to balance the budget under the
leadership of the finance minister was not based on ideology.
Rather it was based on sheer necessity.
1240
In 1993 we inherited a $42 billion plus debt. The recovery
process was hard on Canadians, was hard on Atlantic Canadians. As
a progressive Liberal myself, I am reminded of the challenges
faced by the government to secure the long term sustainability of
our social safety net. It has certainly not been easy.
However it had to be done. Re-engineering, restructuring,
downsizing, reorganization and ultimately the reining in of
government spending were necessary. Now that the fiscal house is
in order, the far-sightedness of government allows us to begin
the process of recovery and building a secure future for all
Canadians.
The budget speaks to two principal objectives in that regard,
the first being prosperity. Job creation is recognized as the
basis upon which Canadians will share in a more prosperous
economy. Illustrative of the prosperity strategy in the budget
of 1998 is the Canadian millennium scholarship foundation. By
putting aside $2.5 billion this year, by the year 2000 funding
will be solidly in place to provide 100,000 scholarships both
full and part time for each of the next 10 years.
There are other important prosperity initiatives in the budget:
the Canada study grants, tax relief for students to retire their
debt, encouraging educational savings, more R and D, and helping
Canadians upgrade their skills in the area of life long learning.
Prosperity for this generation and the next is based on
knowledge, skills and education infrastructure.
Canada is a generous country, more especially so when Canada is
prosperous. If we take away prosperity, equity is no doubt
affected. If we take away equity, prosperity is tainted. Both
equity and prosperity are what Canada therefore must stand for.
The second objective in the budget is equity. The Canadian
millennium scholarship foundation, for example, makes it possible
for Canadians, regardless of their ability to pay, to access
educational opportunities. This is equal opportunity at its
best.
By introducing the scholarship fund this week the Prime Minister
has helped raise the bar for thousands of Canadians who will now
be able to attend our universities and colleges. If there is any
doubt as to what I have just said, hon. members should ask the
president of the University of New Brunswick student association,
the student association president at St. Thomas University in
Fredericton and students anywhere in Canada, what equal access to
post-secondary education really means.
Hon. members should ask Cynthia Hilliard, Ontario community
college student, parliamentary association president who said of
the budget that at long last we were seeing a government make a
commitment to life long learning instead of giving it lip
service. They should ask Lucie Bohac Konrad, executive director
of the Canadian Youth Foundation, who said that overall it was a
good day for Canadians and with the budget young people could
look forward to some relief from the crushing burden of almost a
decade of youth joblessness and increasing shares of education
costs.
The 1998 budget contains several other equity pieces as well:
tax relief for interest on student loans, education credit for
part time students, child care deduction for part time students,
tax free RRSP withdrawals for life long learning, increased child
care expense deductions, enriching the Canadian child tax
benefit, helping those caring for families, eliminating EI
premiums for students under the age of 24, deducting health
premiums for self-employed Canadians, and tax relief for
volunteer emergency service workers.
There is also an important feature in the budget in terms of its
regional impact. All initiatives in the budget assist Atlantic
Canada significantly but none of them marginalizes Atlantic
Canada. Atlantic Canada benefits by the improved educational
infrastructure. It ultimately will benefit by stemming the brain
drain. This then is the prosperity and equity agenda at work.
Two weeks ago I announced through ACOA a $7 million technology
initiative at UNB, putting it at the cutting edge in Canada.
1245
Before Christmas I participated along with St. Thomas University
in the establishment of a criminal justice degree program at that
institution. A week ago I announced a project in New Brunswick
that will allow young Canadians with disabilities access to the
labour market.
These are national programs that make sense in Atlantic Canada.
I want to emphasize how important ACOA is to our region. I say
so because Canada has such diversity that regional development
instruments are required and regional agencies are a way for us
to make national programs tailor made for regional needs. ACOA
is critically important to Atlantic Canada.
I would like to address briefly my own ministry, a ministry with
an annual budget of over $2.6 billion. To our office, to our
ministry, public safety is overarching. That is the business of
the Ministry of the Solicitor General.
This year we have two major priorities, dealing with organized
crime and effective corrections. On the organized crime front,
it seems to me that only an organization as large and as national
as the ministry, in particular in this case the Royal Canadian
Mounted Police, with that kind of breadth in Canada can take on a
leadership role to deal with what is a significant issue in
Canada, organized crime.
We have gone to great lengths in the last Parliament and in this
Parliament to revive law enforcement agencies and the tools they
need in terms of anti-gang legislation, proceeds of crime, the
new DNA legislation. We have gone to great lengths to provide
tools in law enforcement but we also have to recognize a huge
obligation on the co-ordination side, given that we have access
to all corners of this country.
In the area of effective corrections, we want to provide
alternatives for low risk offenders so that those people who
would be more appropriately dealt with in the community will be
there, reserving of course the opportunity in the institutions
available to the correctional service to deal with offenders
whose crimes are more dangerous and more violent and who pose a
greater risk to society.
By making that delineation more effectively, and great efforts
have been made in the last Parliament to do so, we are going to
get better and more efficient results.
We have to build up the infrastructure in communities to allow
us to do that. That is a principal part of what we are going to
be doing this year in the area of effective corrections.
Linked to these priorities of course is the all important matter
of crime prevention. To break the cycle that leads to an
overloaded justice system and overcrowded prisons, it is very
important that we recognize the root causes for crime, be they
poverty, economic circumstances or regional issues.
The fact is at the end of the day the country is going to be all
the safer if we get to those root causes and not deal only with
these issues after the damage has been done. The result of
course will always be a safer, healthier community.
Also, inside the ministry there will be responsibility for
aboriginal policing in corrections, national security and the
integrated justice system.
The bottom line for the Solicitor General of Canada is the
safety of Canadians. I am proud to say that Canada's law
enforcement and corrections systems are among the very best in
the world.
In conclusion, the 1998 budget symbolized by the Prime
Minister's millennium scholarship fund is a perfect example of a
national policy that pursues both prosperity and equity. This is
the hallmark of the great Liberal Party.
[Translation]
Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand (Québec East, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I
listened with great interest to the remarks made by my hon.
colleague in praise of the last budget.
Can he acknowledge the fact that, in Quebec alone, the cuts made
in transfer payments to the provinces and in employment insurance
have resulted in the number of welfare recipients increasing by
200,000? According to a recent study by Montreal economist
Fortin, there are now 730,000 more Canadians on welfare. This is
not necessarily good news.
My colleague also talked about how great the millennium
scholarships were, saying “Ask any student in Canada; they'll
tell you how great the Prime Minister's scholarships are”.
1250
Perhaps my hon. colleague could ask Nicholas Ducharme, the
president of the Quebec students' association, who views these
millennium scholarships as an ego trip on the part of the Prime
Minister, in the sense that they constitute a monument to his
political career.
After all the cuts made in health and education, if it really
cared about the student debt load, this government might have
given this money directly to the students and right away, not two
or three years down the road and without creating yet another
administrative structure, as suggested by Mr. Ducharme, this
student who is the president of the Quebec student's association.
Indeed, he suggested that the federal government should give the
money immediately to the students through the existing grants and
loans system, which is excellent in Quebec.
I would like to know if my hon. colleague thinks that the
increase in the number of people living on welfare in Canada is a
good thing and that introducing these millennium scholarships is
really an ego trip on the part of the Prime Minister.
[English]
Hon. Andy Scott: Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for
the questions. I can answer them relatively easily.
I do not think the exercise is an ego trip on the part of the
Prime Minister. Quite the contrary. What this speaks to very
specifically is that the future prosperity of Canada is
inextricably linked to our ability to provide a well educated and
to the largest extent possible publicly financed well educated
students. It is not only a matter of economic priority, although
I can see that is a significant piece of it. It is also a matter
of fundamental fairness. I believe people who have the capacity
and ability to go to university should have that opportunity.
In recent years the Canada student loans program was designed to
offer that access. Because of the economic circumstances
following graduation and because tuitions were increasing, Canada
student loans could no longer serve that purpose. It was very
important to deal with that. I am glad that the Prime Minister
and the Minister of Finance did.
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
this morning we heard one of the government members describe the
budget as remarkable. Just now we have heard another hon. member
from the government describe this budget as an equity budget. I
find this astounding.
I would like to ask the member to explain to the people of
Canada that if this is an equity budget where in the budget is
there a guarantee that pay equity will be provided for the women
who work for the federal civil service. If this is an equity
budget, why is it that only 7% of students will have access to
the millennium fund? Why is it that there will be no increase in
transfers for education to the provinces to ensure that tuition
fees will not continue to skyrocket?
This is not an equity budget. I would ask the minister to
explain to the people of Canada what he means by an equity
budget?
Hon. Andy Scott: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the
opportunity to do just that. There are many elements and I have
recited a large number of those in speaking to the budget.
Access to university has significantly improved. The student
associations in my constituency of the universities of New
Brunswick and St. Thomas have said so glowingly and publicly.
We have not been able to deal with all the things that fair
minded Canadians would like to see us deal with. Ultimately we
would find ourselves in five years going through the exercise
which we have just gone through if we thought we could accomplish
everything that we would like to without regard for how much
resources are available to accomplish those things.
I point to those things in the budget that speak to questions of
equity and I applaud them.
Mr. Bryon Wilfert (Oak Ridges, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is
with great pleasure that I rise today to comment on the 1998
federal budget.
1255
The Minister of Finance is to be congratulated on leading this
nation from a state of economic stagnation and a deficit of $42
billion to a balanced budget, the first in almost 30 years.
Brian Neysmith, president of the Canadian Bond Rating Service,
stated: “The Minister of Finance and the Liberals have
accomplished what they actually set out to accomplish. They
achieved a balanced budget. They achieved it ahead of schedule,
and from that point of view, you have to give them full marks”.
I have been disappointed to see the members of the opposition
take such partisan approaches to this accomplishment. Canadians
clearly support this approach and the determination of the
government to get our fiscal house in order.
Opposition members harangued the government about the deficit.
Now that the books have been balanced and now that we have a
balanced budget for the next two years, we hear cries of
“shame” because it was not balanced the way they would have
done it.
Harry Houdini is alive and well and living on the opposition
benches. They would provide deep tax cuts, eliminate the debt
and provide social programs, it seems, through various magic
vanishing acts. The government, however, has to deal with
reality.
The end results prove that the government made the tough
decisions and with the support and understanding of Canadians it
made Canada the first G-7 nation to balance its books.
Governing is about choices, it is about leadership and providing
a clear vision for the future. This budget has mapped out a
vision of economic and fiscal planning that will secure a bright
road ahead for all Canadians.
I had the opportunity to host a post-budget breakfast in my
riding last week. I had representatives from the chamber of
commerce, community organizations, social agencies, young people
and municipal councils. A common theme was heard during the
discussions. We have our priorities straight. Debt reduction is
front and centre, followed by new expenditures for skills
development and health and selective tax reductions.
The three key elements were welcomed by the participants at my
meeting, namely a two year fiscal plan based on prudent economic
planning assumptions, as the current plan commits to balanced
budgets over the next two years; the inclusion in the fiscal plan
of a contingency reserve of $3 billion in each year; and the use
of a contingency reserve when it is not needed to pay down the
public debt.
This could mean that if the contingency reserve is not needed,
up to $9 billion could be used to pay down the public debt. The
minister has been cautious and prudent in his calculations. The
debt to GDP ratio is the most relevant measure of a country's
ability to manage its debt. It represents a true measure of debt
burden. The government has already paid down almost $13 billion
in market debt so far this year. More important, however, the
debt to GDP ratio will be put on a permanent downward track
through sustained economic growth and debt repayment plan.
The government is committed to bringing down the debt quickly
and it has a strategy in place to do so. Given the effectiveness
of the government in dealing with the deficit, I believe
Canadians support this approach.
The St. John's Evening Telegram stated on February 25 that
while the $13 billion payment will not cure everything overnight,
it is a promise that the country will not be plunged into the
debt more deeply in the future, that it will no longer mortgage
our children's futures, and with the economic returns on the
fiscal year yet to come in, even more may yet be applied to the
debt.
The budget speaks to youth. As Lucie Konrad, executive director
of the Canadian Youth Foundation stated, overall this is a good
day for young Canadians. With this budget, young people can look
forward to some relief from the crushing burden of almost a
decade of a youth jobless recovery and increasing share of rising
education costs.
The Canadian opportunities strategy provides a co-ordinated set
of measures building on the 1996 and 1997 budgets to create
opportunity by expanding access to knowledge and skills needed
for better jobs and higher standards of living in the 21st
century.
As a former educator I applaud the minister on placing a very
high priority on providing greater opportunities for young people
to prosper in the new knowledge based economy.
The budget demonstrates leadership by announcing the Canadian
millennium scholarships and Canada study grants, tax relief on
student loan interest and improvements to the Canada Student
Loans Act, supporting youth employment through education,
insurance premium holidays for employers for the young Canadians
they hire in 1999 and 2000.
These are investments in our future. Young people must be
encouraged to dream and to seek opportunity in Canada.
1300
The government has listened to the concerns of our youth.
Heather Taylor of the University of Alberta student union stated
that these educational measures in this budget are things for
which we have been fighting for the past eight months. It shows
the government is listening to students. It will have a huge
impact on students.
The 1998 budget provides for the first time tax relief for
interest on student loans. Beginning in 1998 all students will
be eligible for a 17% federal tax credit on their student loan
interest. Interest relief extensions will help about 100,000
graduates.
The editorial in the Toronto Sun on February 26 stated:
“We applaud the finance minister. We think he has made the
right choice in the first post deficit budget. The nation has a
responsibility to help the 600,000 young Canadians who fear they
will never have a good job or a decent career”.
The opposition has talked about a need for tax relief. The
government will deliver $7 billion of tax relief over the next
three years, tax relief for low and middle income Canadians
through an increase in the basic personal exemption and the
elimination of the 3% general surtax on Canadians with income up
to $50,000. Those are two measures that will take 400,000
Canadians off the tax rolls and reduce taxes for 14 million
Canadians by the year 1999-2000.
This government does not just talk tax reductions. It has taken
clear and firm actions in this area. The government is
continuing to provide targeted tax relief. I believe Canadians
have examined the budget and have strongly indicated it is a
balanced approach to the economic well-being of Canada.
I remind members of the opposition that we have a four to five
year mandate. Obviously during that time we will be able to take
other measures which I am sure Canadians will be supportive of.
The next few years will continue to see tax relief and continued
social spending in the area of health care. The impact of the
1998 budget over three years is clear. Forty per cent of new
government spending focuses on investments in social and economic
priorities and sixty per cent is targeted toward debt reduction
and tax relief.
The government has demonstrated solid economic leadership that
bodes well for the economic well-being of all Canadians.
Mr. Howard Hilstrom (Selkirk—Interlake, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, last Friday the Manitoba government brought down its
budget which indicated that $150 million would go to pay down the
debt. That figure is related to a timetable that brings down the
debt to GDP ratio by the year 2028. It is a hard and fast
timetable to get the province of Manitoba at a manageable level
of debt.
Could the member advise this House of the government's timetable
for reducing Canada's overall debt?
Mr. Bryon Wilfert: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member
for his question. When the government was able to bring down the
deficit, it was because we were controlling our own spending.
The government has indicated three, three and three in relation
to the debt.
I suggest to the member that these figures are conservative.
There is no question that if the performance of the economy
continues to be bright, which I believe it will, we will be able
to put more money toward debt reduction. I indicated in my
comments that $13 billion was earmarked for the debt and it has
already brought down the debt measurably.
I am confident in the strategy the government has put in place.
Let us be clear that the finance minister has put a clear debt
reduction strategy in place. The opposition wanted to know where
we stood on it. We have placed it front and centre.
1305
[Translation]
Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand (Québec East, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I would
like to return to the issue of education my colleague raised in
his potpourri speech.
As we know, education is a provincial matter. I would ask my
colleague whether he thinks the federal government could improve
on what the provinces are doing currently with loans and grants
by setting up the millennium scholarship fund.
Second, I would like to know whether, given the existing student
debt load, he thinks it would not be better to give students
money now rather than wait three or four years.
[English]
Mr. Bryon Wilfert: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member
for his question.
There is no question that education is a provincial
responsibility, although we know that the federal government
provides significant dollars to the provinces for post-secondary
education. There is nothing in this budget which would suggest
in any way that the federal government is interfering with
provincial jurisdiction as far as educational curricula is
concerned.
The government is providing needed assistance to students in
this country. The government is showing leadership. I cannot
believe that anyone would be opposed to providing financial
assistance, whether it is through tax credits or tax points, to
students.
Clearly the response of students, both inside and outside of
Quebec, has been very positive. Finally they are seeing true
leadership in education. The government is providing the
necessary financial assistance to students. That bodes well for
students in the future. We do not want them graduating from
university with significant debt, and the figure often quoted is
$25,000 per student.
Mr. Paul Bonwick (Simcoe—Grey, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
first I would like to congratulate the hon. member for his
involvement in the past budget. He played a very integral role,
as we saw in caucus, and he should be congratulated.
I was wondering if he would respond to some of the accusations
which have been made by members opposite that perhaps the
government was not in a position to invest in youth and
education. Would he care to respond to that and tell us if we
actually were in a position to do so?
Mr. Bryon Wilfert: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member
for his question and his kind remarks.
I would point out that in fact the government is targeting very
clearly skills development. The government clearly has looked at
the role which youth will play in the next century and is
providing the necessary dollars.
We have the Canadian opportunities strategy. Whether it is
increased funding for advanced research, tax relief on student
loans or assistance to employers through tax relief in terms of
hiring in future years, the fact is that this government has made
these things a high priority.
The human resources development committee met with
representatives of student associations from right across the
country. It met with representatives from the banks. It
listened to what they had to say and it is now acting.
In this four to five year mandate I expect to see increased
support for students in this regard.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles-A. Perron (Saint-Eustache—Sainte-Thérèse, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, if you will allow me, I will share my time with my
charming colleague from Drummond.
I applaud this first balanced budget since the 1970s. Do not get
me wrong, however. I am not congratulating my friends opposite.
My congratulations go primarily to the provincial governments,
which have had to manage cuts to their social, health care and
education transfers. They go as well to the employers and
employees who have suffered the adverse effects of the
government's shameless dipping into the employment insurance fund
in order to balance its budget. That is scandalous.
I applaud the people of Quebec and of Canada, the poor and the
middle class, who contribute in no small measure to this
government's revenues through increased taxes.
1310
Let us move on now to my comments on the budget. Like most
Canadian politicians, the experts and journalists, I find
nothing or next to nothing in this budget. The proof is in the
press reviews the following day, which said “That's it, that's
all”. Journalists and experts were describing it as lacking
substance and vision. The economists were calling it weak and
insipid. I will leave it at that, otherwise I will be spending
my ten minutes commenting on the budget.
It is so nebulous that those opposite have started a promotional
campaign and are asking their ministers, their big guns, to visit
the ridings and sell the budget.
The President of the Treasury Board was in my riding last week
to sell the finance minister's budget. What he finally said was
that he was there to hear people's views on what the government
should be doing.
I have some advice for the President of the Treasury Board. Quit
wasting your time. This same finance minister started the
practice of having the finance committee travel across Canada to
take the public's pulse. I even held a prebudget meeting in my
riding. All this work by the experts did not reach the finance
minister's ears. He was deaf to it, or perhaps too busy
worrying about Bill C-28.
The cross-Canada committee, as well as people from my riding, had
some good suggestions for the finance minister.
They suggested he stop cutting provincial transfer payments, put
an end to the disgraceful waste of this government, clean up
existing programs, index taxes and tax credits, reform taxation,
lower the premiums paid by employers and employees to the EI fund
by a significant amount, not a measly 20 cents, implement job
creation programs, introduce an anti-deficit bill, and on and on.
What did the Minister of Finance do? He ignored these experts.
He did absolutely nothing.
Yes, there was the Millennium Fund, and I would like to talk
about that. What do we know about it? Not a great deal, except
that it will perhaps be based on need, or merit, it has not yet
been decided, and that its president will be Mr. Landry, the
president of Chrysler Canada. This is a good opportunity for
him to advertise his automobiles.
That is all that we know.
There is one more thing that we know, and that is that this
government has cut between $2.3 and $2.7 billion in education
since 1993. Now it is preening itself over a $2.5 billion fund.
This government is going to continue to make cuts of over $10
billion in education between now and 2003. But still it creates
a fund.
What are the stated and unstated purposes of this fund? Is it a
way of boosting the Prime Minister's image before he leaves
active politics? Is it a springboard for the finance minister
in the race for leadership of his party? The Prime Minister
himself has admitted that one of the goals is to distribute or
promote the Canadian flag.
On February 26, the Liberals and the Reformers showed us in this
House how good they are when it comes to promoting the Canadian
flag.
1315
There is another thing that is condemned by everyone and
confirmed by the following media report: “It is the government's
stated goal to provoke and to get directly involved in the
affairs of provincial governments, under the pretext of helping
our students, starting in the year 2000. But students need help
now. The government should be ashamed of playing politics at the
expense of our students”.
Let me provide some background on Quebec's loans and grants
program.
It was in 1964 that a true Prime Minister, a true Liberal,
Lester B. Pearson, a Nobel Prize winner, set up the Canadian
student loans program to help students continue their education.
At the request of the Quebec premier of the day, the Hon. Jean
Lesage, who wanted to manage and implement a program that would
meet Quebec's needs, Mr. Pearson decided, after giving the idea
some thought and finding nothing wrong with it, to give Quebec
the right, or rather the privilege, because it did not confer any
special status, to establish and manage its own program. The
other Canadian provinces could have availed themselves of the
same privilege, but they chose not to do so, preferring to manage
an already established program.
The result is that Quebec now has a unique student loans and
grants program that is superior to anything that exists elsewhere
in Canada. Quebec spends $600 million on a program designed to
provide loans and scholarships to 170,000 students.
Our province also invested $18 million in a scholarship program
based on merit. The net result of this is that education costs in
Quebec are lower than in the rest of Canada, and the average debt
of Quebec students is $11,000, compared to $25,000 in the rest of
the country. Ottawa must grant Quebec the privilege to opt out
with full compensation.
I will conclude by referring to an article which said that in
1995, the federal Parliament adopted a motion recognizing
Quebec's distinct character and formally guaranteeing Quebeckers
that the departments, institutions and agencies of the Government
of Canada would take that into account when making their
decisions. The Liberals must live up to their commitments.
[English]
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
wonder if the member opposite, in his discussion of the
scholarship program, has approached the undergraduate students
and the graduate students in Quebec who will be receiving this
summer the science scholarships from the federal government which
will allow them to work in the labs of the universities and the
hospitals?
Has he considered approaching the students who are at present in
Quebec universities and are undertaking degrees based on funds
provided by the grants councils, the Medical Research Council,
the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council and NSERC,
the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council? All of
them are federal councils. All of them are providing money to
students in universities in Quebec. Is he suggesting that those
students should give up those scholarships they have at present
and that they will have next summer and next winter?
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: Mr. Speaker, I thank my wise colleague for
his question, but I would remind him that the money being given
out comes from Quebec.
1320
I would also remind my colleague that Le Quartier, the University
of Montreal newspaper, wrote “In the millennium fund, Ottawa
should step aside for Quebec”, and “Save the university”. In La
Presse, Claude Piché, no friend of the sovereignists, called it
the “millennium catastrophe”. The same press review also says,
on the subject of the position adopted by the Quebec university
students' association “millennium scholarships rejected”. I am
speaking on behalf of the people of Quebec.
[English]
Mr. Tony Valeri (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have just a couple of points
of clarification. I think the hon. member in his speech
indicated that the transfers to the provinces were going to
continue to go down. I would caution the hon. member that he
should read the numbers again.
We have in fact seen a reinvestment in the Canada health and
social transfer of $1.5 billion a year. He will also see because
of the system of transfers being made up of cash and tax points
that transfers to the provinces will continue to increase.
I want to speak directly to the comments made on the millennium
fund. What does the hon. member say to the Fédération étudiante
universitaire du Québec and the Fédération étudiante collégiale
du Québec when they say they would like to see both governments
co-operate, to set aside political squabbles and find a formula
so they can have access to these funds because they need them?
Essentially the students in Quebec and students right across the
country are saying not to get into political squabbles, but to
deal with the issues. That is what we have attempted to do with
the millennium scholarship fund. There is a vast amount of
support for this program by the students. If the hon. member
wants to help students he should stand in his place and support
this scholarship fund which will ensure that students get the
money they need to access education.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: Mr. Speaker, my colleague opposite is hard
of hearing or he did not listen to my speech, perhaps because it
was in French.
We are saying duplication must end, that the $82 million should
come back to Quebec, that it must be sent, transferred to Quebec,
and that Quebec is capable of looking after this $82 million. We
have proven it. By managing the program established by Mr.
Pearson, Quebec has a less expensive system of education, and its
students have the smallest debt load. Instead of spending money
and treading on toes, the government should send the $82 million
to Quebec and let it look after it. Students would be better
off.
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I would like to
thank my hon. colleague from Saint-Eustache—Sainte-Thérèse for
sharing her time with me.
I too am pleased to take part in the discussion on this
universally criticized budget. Even if we agree with the
results, we can have some very serious reservations on the means
used to accomplish them, because we know that this zero deficit
plus surpluses has been reached at the expense of the provinces,
middle-income families, the unemployed, the sick, students and
welfare recipients.
But where does this surplus come from? In 1993, the Liberal red
book said it was unrealistic to wish to eliminate the federal
deficit in five years. The Prime Minister stated that such an
objective could not be attained without pillaging social
programs, and no Liberal government would agree to do such a
thing.
Four budgets later, the federal deficit is now eliminated, but
at the price they refused to pay in 1993.
The main accomplishment of the Liberal government as far as
beating the deficit is concerned can be summarized as follows:
$42 billion in cuts to hospitals, universities and welfare, an
employment insurance reform which impoverishes the unemployed,
coupled with an economic upturn combined with non-indexed tax
tables. That is what the zero deficit is all about.
1325
But, let us face it, this approach of getting other people to do
what one is incapable of doing oneself has put the federal
government in a position where, for the first time in a long
while, there was the possibility of somewhat lightening the tax
burden of Canadian and Quebec taxpayers, the working and the
unemployed, in short those who are responsible for the situation
we are now in.
Fifty-four per cent, or more than half, of the cuts in
expenditures made by the federal government between 1994 and
1998, moreover, were dumped onto the governments of Quebec and
the provinces, to the tune of $6.3 billion annually. An annual
amount of $6.3 billion is no trifle.
Yet in 1993, the Prime Minister stated “In our program, we have
no intention of cutting payments to individuals or to the
provinces. That is clear and it is in writing”. I refer those who
may want to know where this quote is from to the September 25,
1993 edition of La Presse. Of course, no one believed at the time
that this promise would be kept any more than the others, the GST
for example.
However, the current fiscal situation, which was achieved thanks
to the efforts of provincial governments, permitted at the very
least that the provinces be compensated for the losses caused by
this offloading. To this end, the government could have given
them as tax points 25% of the next two years' surpluses, thereby
cancelling out the cuts imposed during the first Liberal mandate
in the transfers for health, education and social assistance.
This would have enabled the provincial governments to regain the
flexibility lost in previous budgets while not affecting the
federal government's finances. Indeed, it would still record a
surplus of approximately $30.8 billion in 2001-02, even if 25% of
the next two years' surpluses were paid back to the provinces.
There they go creating new programs. It has been known for
months that the finance minister's latest budget would be a
surplus budget, or at least a balanced budget. All the
stakeholders, be it the Bloc Quebecois or the other opposition
parties, the premiers and finance ministers of Quebec or the
provinces, asked, begged the Liberal government not to start
spending again before having made up for the losses resulting
from the cuts made these past few years in health, education and
social programs.
Nothing was done. The government has gone right back to wasting
taxpayers' money, introducing a myriad of new measures that will
duplicate or overlap what is already being done in the provinces,
and running the risk of again losing control of its spending and
plunging us into a deficit spiral.
The best example of this renewed interference is the creation of
millennium scholarships. This fund is a pointless affront to the
governments of Quebec and of the other provinces and makes no
provision for withdrawal with compensation. The Prime Minister
is bent on sending out cheques with the maple leaf on them and
was certainly not going to be stopped by considerations of
jurisdiction, as defined in his own Constitution.
This morning, in an article about a new home care program, a
health department official told us why the federal government
was introducing this new program: “We want to see the maple leaf
on the cheque”. As one of my constituents said to me, if the
Prime Minister is so interested in visibility, all he has to do
is put his picture on the twenty-dollar bill.
Quebec already has a student assistance program that is a vast
improvement on all similar programs in Canadian provinces. Not
only is it the only program with loans that are advantageous for
students, but it is the only one where they do not have to pay
back scholarships when they graduate. The result is that the
average indebtedness of Quebec students is half that of students
in other provinces.
1330
No one in Quebec wants to see that money wasted on some program
that would duplicate what is already being done and done well.
Even the education sector condemns this “operation visibility”
which, in the end, will be conducted at the expense of the
students themselves. Hopefully, the appeals to common sense made
by Quebec stakeholders will be heard by the Prime Minister,
before the upcoming meeting with Quebec government officials.
I also want to talk about health, since I am the critic on this
issue. In Quebec, and everywhere in Canada, health is probably
the sector where the federal government has done the most damage.
Disconnected as it is from the medical realities in the
provinces, the federal government offloaded its deficit onto
provincial health programs, at a time when the provinces
themselves were in the middle of a restructuring process. After
blaming the provinces for its cuts, the federal government should
have redistributed the surplus of the last budget to alleviate
the negative impact that it helped create in the first place.
Yet, the new budget does confirm that federal cuts totalling $42
billion will be made between now and the year 2002. However, it
is silent on how the government will use the additional $70
million that will be generated by the increase on tobacco taxes.
The budget includes no new measures to deter young people from
smoking, and it does not provide any compensation for sports and
cultural events.
But the biggest disappointment is the lack of any reference to
the financial compensation the victims of Hepatitis C
contamination have been awaiting for years, which the government
can now afford to pay immediately. Unfortunately, a measure of
this type did not fit in with the Liberal's objective of keeping
a high profile. Yet the federal government could implement this
immediately, without waiting for the provinces, which are already
saddled with the costs of services provided to these victims
through the health system.
The biggest surprise where health is concerned came, not in the
budget speech, but from the mouth of the Minister of Health, when
he brought into the open the federal government's true intentions
as far as encroachments on health are concerned. This is
unacceptable.
Since you are indicating I have only a minute left, Mr. Speaker,
I will move on immediately to my conclusion, which is that the
latest budget by the Minister of Finance has once again confirmed
what the Bloc Quebecois has been saying for a number of years,
that the federal government's plan is to put the provinces in a
shaky situation budget-wise, and then to come along to rescue them
with new initiatives in areas that fall within provincial
jurisdiction.
The best illustration of this approach is provided by the
President of Treasury Board himself, with his statement that
“When Bouchard has to make cuts, we in Ottawa will then be able
to demonstrate that we have the means to preserve the future of
social programs”. Here we have both overlap and duplication.
[English]
Mr. Tony Valeri (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I listened as the hon. member
went on and on about how the government was hell bent on creating
duplication, overlap and all the rest of it.
Earlier I made a point about what the students of Quebec were
saying. They want provincial governments and the federal
government to work together to ensure that this program works, to
ensure that students have access to post-secondary education and
skills training so they can compete for the jobs, and to ensure
they have the quality of life we all want them to have.
Over and over again the hon. member made reference to the
millennium scholarship fund. It is not about creating a
bureaucracy. It is not about overlap. It is essentially about
putting money directly into the pockets of students. It is
bypassing politicians. It is bypassing institutions. It is
bypassing bureaucracy.
The hon. member said that the sole motivation of the government
was to ensure there was a flag on every cheque. The sole
motivation of the government is to allow young Canadians
opportunity and access to skills training.
We saw in the Globe and Mail today that the difference
between those that have opportunity and those who do not is
education.
That is the great equalizer. We want to ensure that every
student has opportunity and access to that information.
1335
The hon. member keeps talking about how the government wants to
get in the way of the provinces. I disagree wholeheartedly. I
believe that young Canadians who want to see access and want to
see the millennium scholarship work support it.
I hope the hon. member will say that her motivation is to say
that they want Quebeckers, young Canadians and Canadians in all
other provinces, to have improved access to education and
improved access to opportunity. I hope they will work with us to
ensure that in fact will occur.
[Translation]
Mrs. Pauline Picard: Mr. Speaker, I can understand the secretary
of state defending the budget. What I do not understand and what
I reject is the extent of his lack of knowledge of the Quebec
system of loans and grants.
The millennium fund simply duplicates things. He cannot deny
that. If he understands the Quebec system, if he has examined
it or if he is interested in it he will see that this fund
duplicates what already exists. Why not give this $80 million to
the provinces in compensation and to help them improve a system
they all approve?
All the provincial ministers of finance and education acknowledge
that in Quebec we have the best system of student loans and
grants.
I do not know where he gets the idea that students do not agree
with us and are in favour of the millennium fund, because it is
not true.
He only need contact the various representatives of certain
federations, such as the Fédération des universités et des
cégeps and the Fédération des étudiants du postsecondaire to
discover their total disagreement.
Currently, students receive an average of $3,800 annually in
grants open to all students, according to need. The millennium
fund promises $3,000 on the basis of need and merit, to be
determined by a board of directors. This is a waste. Where is
the system that will really ensure justice or determine a
student's merit?
Do you think a student in debt, who is poor and has to work part
time to pay for his studies, is going to do as well as a student
whose parents are well off and can look after his needs? This is
where the unfairness lies.
Regardless, what is being proposed at the moment is the
duplication, in Quebec, of one of the best systems, a system
praised across Canada. So why not give Quebec the right to opt
out with compensation so it can help more students who are in
debt?
I suggest the government go back to the drawing board on this
and, if it is really so open, allow Quebec to opt out of the
millennium fund.
[English]
Mr. Paul Steckle (Huron—Bruce, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, at
the outset I would like to indicate that I will be sharing my
time with the hon. member for Durham.
I begin my address today by extending my personal
congratulations to the Minister of Finance. The minister has in
this fiscal year achieved something that no other finance
minister has been able to do since 1969. He has brought order to
the country's finances. Not only are the books balanced this
year but it is projected that they will balance for the next two
consecutive fiscal years, a feat that has not been matched by any
Canadian federal administration for half a century.
I come from a small and traditional farming community that was
built firmly upon the premise of hard work. Over the years I
remember several instances when, after completing a very long
tiring and productive day in the fields or in the barn, all that
I desired in the world was a few hours of rest.
In short, often the most welcome reward for an honest day's work
is a good night's sleep.
1340
Let me be among the first to say that the minister has now
completed the proverbial hard day's work and is to be
congratulated for that. When the aforementioned theories are
applied to the completion of the task of bringing order to our
financial house, one would think an accomplishment of this
magnitude would be a feat sufficient enough to warrant at least a
momentary time of reflection; a break in what has been a constant
four year crusade to eliminate the deficit.
That is what one might think. However, as a lifelong farmer
turned politician I would have to say that national fiscal
management is certainly not comparable to hard work on the farm.
If it were, I am afraid that the cattle would long be gone and it
would perhaps be too late to close the gate to the corral.
I guess what I am trying to say is that we have now balanced the
books but we must not become too complacent. If we let down our
guard we run the risk of permitting last year's crop of problems
to once again take root. We must never forget it was only four
short years ago that our annual deficit stood at over $42
billion. Inflation was soaring. The only thing lower than
consumer spending was consumer confidence.
In 1993 there were fierce storm clouds collecting on the
horizon. This bleak economic outlook which was perpetrated by a
blatant mismanagement of the public purse forced us into a
position where we had to borrow over $30 billion annually on
foreign money markets just to service the accumulated public
debt. In the most basic of terms we were paying our Visa card's
minimum monthly balance with our American Express in the hope
that we would one day get a pay raise.
It was clear to anyone with even the most rudimentary of
mathematical skills that this trend was neither practical nor
sustainable. I cannot fathom that even one single Canadian or
businessman would have attempted to justify this or to apply the
practice to his or her own fiscal life without expecting dire
consequences.
I am certain that to an outsider it must have seemed like we
were building the social fabric of Canada in a manner which could
only be compared to the construction techniques of a house of
cards.
In 1993, with financial chaos looming over our heads, Canadians
demanded that their government immediately move to rectify the
problem of the treasury being in constant overdraft. Canadians
called upon the Liberals to tackle the nation's financial crisis.
Prior to 1993 the Department of Finance routinely set and missed
its own targets, which caused international investors to become
apprehensive at the mere mention of investing in Canada. In a
nutshell, the confidence that our citizens and business leaders
once enjoyed was rapidly and needlessly eliminated.
Immediately after assuming office the government took firm
control of the financial reins of the country. In his 1995
budget the Minister of Finance declared “We have broken the back
of the deficit”. This was the first in a series of
announcements which signalled the beginning of a long and overdue
journey along the road to financial recovery.
On February 24 of this year the Minister of Finance announced
that the goal had at long last been realized. For the first time
in 50 years there seemed to be a genuine light at the end of the
tunnel.
There is little doubt that the 1998 federal budget represents a
turning point on the national course. Our path both socially and
economically has been dramatically altered for the better,
hopefully forever. No longer are we financing our current
lifestyle by committing to a second and third mortgage on our
children's future. In the words of the finance minister “the
government has cut up its credit cards”, an announcement that I
am all too happy to hear.
Just prior to the budget I held a public forum to consult with
my constituents on this issue. As always, I was impressed with
the high quality of input I received from the residents of my
riding of Huron—Bruce. Although the group was made up of people
from several different political stripes, we checked our politics
at the door and proceeded to have a productive discussion.
There was unanimity in the belief that our massive federal debt
had placed Canada in an ever weakening position with respect to
global economic credibility. Our capacity to effectively
negotiate trade deals, direct the internal inflation rate,
control domestic employment levels, and to set and to execute
national priorities were all being seriously hindered. In short,
the government's ability to effectively govern was in danger of
falling victim to total erosion.
It was agreed that if we were to truly overcome our money
problems we must adopt a two pronged approach. First, we must
begin to pay down our massive federal debt. Second, we must
reinvest in the areas hardest hit by cost cutting: health,
education and skills development. In the report presented to the
Standing Committee on Finance this notion was summarized by
saying that we must not sell the house to pay the mortgage.
Since first assuming office in 1993 our government has
maintained that after we managed to remove the red ink from the
national balance sheet we would begin to tackle the problem of
the debt and that we would expand upon our commitment to reinvest
in valuable social programs, youth and skills development.
1345
To that end, this year the budget theme is building Canada for
the 21st century a strong economy and a secure society.
Financially speaking we are now in a position to begin to reap at
least some of the benefits accumulated as a dividend of over four
years of belt tightening.
Along with balancing the books this government has once again
resisted the urge to increase personal income taxes. Quite to
the contrary, we have provided at least some form of tax relief
to nearly 14 million low and middle income Canadians. This was
done by reducing or eliminating entirely the 3% federal surtax
for individuals who have income levels of less than $65,000 per
year.
We have also increased the basic personal tax exemption by $500
and we have earmarked another $850 million to enhance the child
tax benefit. This is in addition to the various other tax
credits and new exemptions that were announced on budget day.
I know that many of our colleagues claim we did not go far
enough with our tax reduction strategy. To those people I would
say that if reducing or eliminating federal income tax for 90% of
the current taxpayers does not constitute real tax relief, then
what does?
In the 1997 election the Liberals committed that it was our goal
to, after a zero deficit had been achieved, put the debt to GDP
ratio on a permanent downward track. Without question we have
done just that. It should be noted that in 1995 the
aforementioned ratio was hovering at almost 72%. By the turn of
the century, it will sit at approximately 63%, nearly a 10%
decrease in five short years.
In addition to that, we have managed to broker a new three year
agreement with the Bank of Canada that will see a continuation of
the inflation control targets. This agreement promises to keep
the national rate of inflation inside the range of 1% to 3%.
The objectives of this monetary policy are simple: to
contribute to sustainable expansion, to support high levels of
employment and a rising standard of living. These I believe are
goals that every Canadian can support.
In addition to tax breaks for those who need them the most, in
addition to balancing the books into the next millennium and in
addition to cutting the cost of running the government, we have
also begun to reinvest in education and health. Time and time
again these have been clearly identified as national priority
areas.
This budget announced measures designed to address the mounting
problem of student debt and unemployment. To this end I believe
that the $2.5 billion millennium scholarship fund, the 17% of
student tax credit, the EI premium holiday for small businesses
that hire students and the increase to the RESP levels will go a
long way.
I agree there are still unsolved problems facing us, however
this budget represents a positive first step. Rome was not built
in a day. And who are we to think that a country as great as
this one can be repaired with one budget?
Canadians can be proud today. Together we have achieved what
seemed impossible only four years ago. Fundamental problems have
caused a fundamental change in the way that government operates.
The days of wasteful overspending and foolish megaprojects are
gone forever. They have been replaced by an era of strategic
investment and co-operative partnerships.
We can argue the pros and cons of this budget until the cows
come home but the facts are obvious. The business community has
begun to once again regain its lost faith in the state of
Canada's finances.
Since 1993 interest rates have dropped to record lows, consumer
confidence has increased and our economy has begun to grow in
leaps and bounds. In fact the latest projections place Canada in
the best financial shape of all the G-7 nations.
This House is divided into five officially recognized political
parties each applying a somewhat different philosophy and
different agenda. As Liberals we have a very long history of
fostering a strong sense of community responsibility. Canadians
view many of our social programs as defining national
characteristics. I am happy to hear that the 1998 budget
reaffirms our continuing commitment to many of these core
programs.
This budget clearly recognizes the need to stay the course with
respect to fiscal prudence. Indeed this budget does many
positive things. However its real strength comes from what it
does not do. What it does not do is lose sight of the values
that we as a country hold in the highest regard.
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
I thank the hon. member for his remarks.
One of the policy changes announced in this budget was an
increase in the child care tax deduction from $5,000 to $7,000.
The minister has claimed that this is an indication of the
government's commitment to children.
1350
This increase in the child care tax deduction merely increases
the unfairness and inequity faced by single income families who
choose to care for their children at home. They have access to
no tax deduction for their at home child care even though they
are forgoing a second income. They also do not have the
opportunity to split their incomes and take advantage of all of
the deductions and exemptions in the tax system.
I wonder if the hon. member could comment on whether or not he
supports this increase in the inequity with respect to single
income families proposed in this budget.
Mr. Paul Steckle: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon.
member for that question. It allows me the opportunity to expand
on what I believe is an inequity in terms of how we deal with the
families that have a spouse who remains within the home to take
care of their own children.
As I said earlier this budget has not addressed every inequity
in the country. To me, families are the highest priority we have.
If children could find support in their mothers and fathers as we
believe they should, we would probably find that we would have
fewer social problems.
It is certainly my wish that in future budgets we address this
whole issue of accommodating a tax credit for those spouses who
stay home to look after their children. It hardly seems fair that
someone can take care of my children and I can take care of
someone else's children and we are given a tax credit.
We have begun the process. The process has a long way to go. It
will be my commitment to this House to ensure that members on
this side of the House at least understand the inequities. I will
ensure that the minister responsible will be told of this.
Hopefully we can address this in next year's budget.
[Translation]
Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand (Québec East, BQ): Mr. Speaker, coming
back to the matter of education, more specifically the
millennium scholarships, the member for Huron—Bruce touted this
fund as one of the obvious pluses of the budget. But not
everyone, even in English Canada, agrees with this initiative. I
quote from an article by John Trent, a professor of political
science at the University of Ottawa, who says:
[English]
“The $2.5 billion Canadian millennium scholarship foundation
announced in Tuesday's budget amounts to a rape of federalism. It
is also politically egocentric, administratively inept and
strategically stupid. Moreover it is unnecessary”.
[Translation]
Mr. Trent points out what many have said about the millennium
scholarships. Basically, the government's strategy is once
again to boost its visibility, but it is also determined to
impose another administrative system on Quebec, and to do so in a
clearly provincial jurisdiction.
Does the member agree or not that introducing a federal system of
scholarships and loans adds an additional layer of administration
to the existing provincial system? Does he, or does he not,
agree that this amounts to interference in provincial
jurisdiction?
[English]
Mr. Paul Steckle: Mr. Speaker, the simple answer is no, I
do not agree with the hon. member's assumptions that we have
interfered in provincial areas of educational responsibilities.
The kind of rhetoric I heard just a moment ago even if it came
from a man as he has just mentioned does not surprise me. We hear
that kind of rhetoric in this House. I am surprised that people
in the position this gentleman is referring to would allude to
such rhetoric, because I believe what we have attempted to do is
to assist those who are being educated in our society. We are
creating an incentive for them to go on to further education. We
are doing this aside from the programs that are already in place
through normal scholarships.
I do not believe that the students of today are the ones who are
using this kind of rhetoric. I am rather appalled that we would
find people in this House saying this, because we have not. We
have made this fund available to Canadians everywhere in Canada,
including the province of Quebec.
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I am sure the member for Huron—Bruce has heard from
constituents and knows that for many Canadians there is deep
disappointment about the absence in this budget of any new funds
for health care transfers.
He knows undoubtedly that we have a critical situation in every
part of this country with overcrowded emergency wards. People are
suffering because they cannot get the service they need.
Hospitals are under so much stress.
1355
Is the member for Huron—Bruce aware of any plans the government
may have for starting to reinvest in health care and starting to
put some money into the health care transfer payment system?
Would he have any idea when we can expect to see the government's
millennium budget for health care?
Mr. Paul Steckle: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member
would understand if she had read her budget that we have already
applied $1.5 billion in further transfers to the CHST.
Living in the province of Ontario I am quite aware of the kinds
of arguments that are being made. I sympathize with those who
are finding health services at a premium these days. The
province of Ontario says the reason we are short is because the
federal government has made cuts. What the people are not being
told, and I can only speak for the province of Ontario as that is
where I come from, is that the 30% the province is giving back in
tax reductions only apply to those who are paying tax. The ones
who are getting the most back are the ones who pay the most taxes
and who need it the least. If the province had applied that, the
province would have four times the amount of money related to the
amount of money that we have withdrawn from health services.
I would suggest that if Ontario and other provinces want to
complain, they had better look at how they are doing their own
books and be more insightful in those areas.
The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. It being almost 2.00 p.m. the
House will now proceed to Statements by Members.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
COMMONWEALTH DAY
Mr. Bob Speller (Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am honoured to rise in this House as chair of the
Canadian branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association to
draw the attention of my hon. colleagues that today is
Commonwealth Day. This important event is celebrated annually on
the second Monday in March to mark the establishment of the
modern Commonwealth.
Our nation has benefited greatly from its membership in the
Commonwealth. The Commonwealth stands as a symbol of
international co-operation and it is a model for all nations to
work together in friendship.
The theme of Her Majesty's Commonwealth Day message is “Sport
Bringing Us Together”. Apart from more formal contacts between
governments, the Commonwealth provides many special links between
its members, one of those being through sport.
The Commonwealth Games which are being held in September in
Malaysia are indeed known as the friendly games and for good
reason. This great sporting event will bring together people
from every background proudly representing their countries,
competing for the love of their sport and with only one goal, to
be the best that they can be.
I hope all members and Canadians will join with me in wishing
our Commonwealth friends peace and happiness.
* * *
INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY
Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, yesterday was International Women's Day,
an occasion to recognize the many women who have had an impact in
Canada and abroad.
Women like Mary Ann Schadd, the first black newspaper women in
North America and Charlotte Ross, one of the first female doctors
in Canada, achieved success and recognition because of their
abilities, their perseverance and their determination. These
women were pioneers at a time when women were not even recognized
as persons in the British North America Act. Even today many
women around the world are denied their rights as individuals and
this must be a concern to all.
Today I am pleased to recognize all women who have made valuable
contributions to society as mothers, doctors, scientists,
businesswomen and politicians.
* * *
[Translation]
QUEBEC FLAG
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
fifty years ago, Quebec adopted the fleur-de-lis as our provincial
flag. Two years later, on March 9, 1950, Quebec's legislative
assembly passed a bill giving this decision the force of law. It
is this anniversary that I wish to remember today.
Quebec has seen many changes in the last fifty years. It has
moved ahead with great speed in all areas. Over the years,
people from all four corners of the globe have come to Quebec and
played a role in making our province what it is today.
It has become a modern, dynamic and outward-looking society.
As the new millennium approaches, Quebec has everything it needs
to continue on this course.
The fleur-de-lis is obviously a reminder of the francophone
identity that runs through our province's history, but it is
also a rallying symbol for all Quebeckers.
1400
I look to it with pride in my beautiful riding, in my identity as
a Quebecker and as a Canadian. It is my belief that, in the
future, the fleur-de-lis and the maple leaf will continue to fly
side by side.
* * *
[English]
WOMEN HOCKEY
Mr. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday was International Women's Day, a day when women around
the world marched for equality. It is with this in mind that I
rise to pay tribute to women's hockey in Canada.
For most of us fans, the debut of women's hockey at the Nagano
olympics showed that hockey is not only a man's sport. The world
championship Team Canada with Cassie Campbell, Lesley Reddon and
Jayna Hefford of Mississauga proved that by bringing home an
olympic silver medal.
Most of the credit for the success of women's hockey must go to
the Mississauga based Ontario Women's Hockey Association. As the
only organization of its kind in the world, it was the driving
force behind the establishment of the World Women's Hockey
Championship and can take a great deal of credit for the
inclusion of women's hockey in Nagano.
No tribute to women's hockey would be complete without mention
of Mayor Hazel McCallion who earned $5 a game playing
professional women's hockey in the forties. As an active member
of the board of directors, she has remained a strong advocate of
the sport and was a key force on the road to the olympics. All
Canadians can take pride in the achievements of Canada's
women hockey players.
* * *
YOUNG OFFENDERS
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise on behalf of the people of Surrey Central to mourn the death
of Sandor Nyerges, a veteran of the two world wars.
He was deaf, mute, 80 years old and lived alone. My constituent
was left with the loss of his eyesight, hundreds of stitches in
his head and body, a broken nose and he suffered two heart
attacks following a beating. He was a victim of a ferocious
beating that led to his death. The alleged assailant has a long
record as a young offender.
We have urged this Liberal government since 1993 to get tough on
crime. The Liberals are dragging their feet and sitting on their
hands while seniors remain targets of violence day after day
after day.
My constituents and I are furious. When will the Liberal's
defend and protect our citizens? When will the Liberal's stand
up for Canadians? Why was this freedom fighter not free from
crime? Fix the Young Offenders Act.
* * *
INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S WEEK
Mr. Paul Bonwick (Simcoe—Grey, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Canadians join the world this week in celebrating International
Women's Week.
The origins of International Women's Week can be traced back to
labour strikes of 1857 and 1908. Conditions were overcrowded,
dangerous and wages were paid more to men than they were to
women.
This week communities of Simcoe—Grey and across Canada will be
celebrating International Women's Week by giving their support
and participation to a variety of special events. Further, the
National Film Board of Canada is hosting a series of films this
week highlighting issues affecting women's lives.
I pay tribute to all Canadian women and particularly those
honoured Saturday evening at the annual Georgian Bay Fruit
Growers Association where over 200 constituents came together to
thank these women for their considerable contribution to the
agricultural industry. Women have come far in their battle for
equality but we must reflect on how far we also still have to go.
On behalf of my Liberal colleagues, I say hats off to women all
over this world. Your sacrifice and contribution are
appreciated.
* * *
[Translation]
RAIL TRANSPORT
Mr. Guy St-Julien (Abitibi, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in yesterday's
edition of La Presse, an article by journalist Camille Beaulieu
of Rouyn-Noranda appeared under the following headline: “Study
predicts the end of regional rail services”.
The profitability of the railway system, the environment, road
safety, competition, and even the survival of several plants and
the development of new businesses will be compromised in the
Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean, Haute-Mauricie and Abitibi regions if Quebec
extends to these regions the changes in load limits for road
trains, or tractors towing two trailers, implemented elsewhere
in Quebec in June 1997.
The study showed that increasing the limit from 59 to 62.5 metric
tonnes may jeopardize the viability of railway lines in areas
where traffic volumes will drop below the critical level. The
remaining customers, those for whom railway service is clearly
valuable, may be hard hit.
Quebec transport minister Jacques Brassard should be advised
that the people of Quebec want a public debate on his road train
load reform as it applies to these regions.
* * *
1405
[English]
THE SENATE
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
what are the qualifications required to become a Canadian
senator?
Well, here they are. First, lose an election or, better yet,
lose two elections. Chances are you will be a shoo-in for a
Senate appointment and who better to represent the people than
the candidate who people rejected at the polls.
Another way is to have blatant political connections, for
example, working for a Liberal MP, or better yet, having the
Prime Minister work for you and offering the Prime Minister a
good deal on your company shares or co-chairing the Prime
Minister's leadership campaign or chairing an election campaign
or arranging candidate nominations.
Do your duty for the Liberals and you will be rewarded. So,
Joan Cook of Newfoundland and Ross Fitzpatrick of B.C., come on
down. Your seat in patronage heaven is assured.
* * *
COMMONWEALTH DAY
Ms. Jean Augustine (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, today is Commonwealth Day. It is a day to remember,
celebrate and learn about the Commonwealth.
Since 1949 the second Monday in March was chosen to be the day
when member countries around the world would observe their
association as Commonwealth members.
The modern Commonwealth recognizes the Queen as head of the
Commonwealth while being republics, indigenous monarchies,
sultanates, elected chieftaincies or as realms. Canada plays an
important role as a member of the Commonwealth.
Building partnership and mutual respect among a community of
nations takes effort. Celebrating and observing Commonwealth Day
is a strong symbol of this effort. Happy Commonwealth Day to all
parliamentarians in the Commonwealth.
* * *
[Translation]
INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, on this
day celebrating the place and role of women in our society, I
would like to add my voice to theirs.
During the recent conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina, rape was
widespread and it was used as a veritable weapon of war. To
judge those who committed these atrocities, the international
community established an international criminal court. For the
first time in history, rape, one horrendous act among many, will
be considered a war crime.
But while charges have been laid against them and their
whereabouts are known, the alleged offenders have yet to be
arrested, in spite of the fact that security forces from several
countries, including Canada, are participating in the SFOR
operations. This complacent attitude has lasted long enough.
I sincerely hope that those who committed rape will be arrested.
I also hope that the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Minister
of National Defence will encourage SFOR to participate more
actively in arresting criminals so that justice can be done for
all women.
* * *
[English]
IMMIGRATION
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Eastern Shore, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I rise in the House of Commons as a proud Dutch-born
immigrant who along with my father, mother and five brothers and
sisters, immigrated to Canada in September 1956.
I cannot remain silent and allow this government to even
consider in any way, shape or form the current recommendations of
the minister's advisory group. Nor will I and my fellow New
Democrats across this great country allow the racists and
fanatical right wing to implement their own views on current
policy.
My family came to Canada with very little English or French
skills or very little finances. Within a very short time my
oldest brother, Arnold, and my oldest sister, Roely, got
employment to support the family.
My mother and father ran a group home for over 25 years to look
after foster children, their way of thanking Canada for allowing
their doors to be open for us.
I encourage all members of this House to denounce the
recommendations of the minister's committee and to stand up and
be proud to live in a country as compassionate and caring as
Canada.
* * *
[Translation]
INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY
Ms. Raymonde Folco (Laval West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, yesterday,
the whole world celebrated International Women's Day.
The Canadian government plays an active role in promoting equal
opportunities and rights for all women, because it is clear that
an enormous amount of work remains to be done in every part of
the world.
Last week, I travelled to Algeria with the parliamentary
delegation. On that occasion, Canada renewed its resolve to
continue to press Algeria to amend its family code, which
restricts the rights of women in that country. We were also moved
by the despair of the most vulnerable people in Algeria, namely
the women who became orphans or widows during the continued
slaughter.
Women around the world have made giant steps toward greater
equality. It is up to every one of us to rise and to affirm our
rights, whether in the workplace or at home.
* * *
1410
STATUS OF WOMEN
Mrs. Maud Debien (Laval East, BQ): Mr. Speaker, Canadian and
Quebec women have made significant progress toward gender
equality. In particular, they have gained notional rights to
equality, wage equity and security.
However, there is a world of difference between theory and daily
reality. Wage equity has yet to be achieved in the public
service. Women are still afraid at night. Their salaries are
still lower than those of men. They are still, along with their
children, the most vulnerable members of our society.
The last federal budget is an insult to their intelligence.
Women were asking $2 per woman and girl child to continue their
progress toward equality.
They got nothing, absolutely nothing.
The Bloc Quebecois reminds the government that our society's
progress toward equality is everyone's business, and that the
federal government has a role to play.
Therefore, the Bloc Quebecois demands that the government review
and increase the budget for the advancement of women. To invest
in gender equality is a public responsibility the federal
government must assume.
* * *
INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S WEEK
Ms. Diane St-Jacques (Shefford, PC): Mr. Speaker, on the occasion
of International Women's Week, I would like to draw attention to
the work done by my fellow citizens, and especially that of
Pauline Ranger, who, despite obstacles, has not only managed to
put her personal life in order but has become involved in helping
women who are victims of domestic violence.
Since 1995, Pauline Ranger and her team at the Maison
d'hébergement pour elles have worked to promote respect for
independence, differences and individuality in women's lives.
Women's great struggle for dignity, social equality and pay
equity is being fought daily by men and women working as
responsible partners to build a better world for everyone and
for the future of our children.
* * *
INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY
Ms. Eleni Bakopanos (Ahuntsic, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, yesterday,
Sunday, March 8, was International Women's Day and marked the
start of International Women's Week.
This year the day was dedicated to all those working to raise the
profile of women's rights, underscoring the commitment that will
be required in the future to promote their equality.
[English]
Women's rights are human rights. Today for the third year in a
row I gathered together representatives from diverse women's
organizations for our breakfast in my riding.
[Translation]
We must, as the government, focus attention on the important work
done by women in such organizations as Transit 24,
Concertation-femmes, the Montreal Italian Women's Centre,
Maji-Soi, the Maison buissonnière, Remue-ménage, Mono-vie Ahuntsic,
Entraide Ahuntsic Nord et Sud, the Association de gardiennage
d'Ahuntsic and the Centre d'action bénévole Bordeaux-Cartierville
to name but a few.
[English]
I am honoured to work closely with these women to continue to
make important change and improve the lives of all women in my
riding. Let us all applaud these women as unsung heroes.
* * *
THE BUDGET
Mr. Maurizio Bevilacqua (Vaughan—King—Aurora, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, last Thursday in the town of Aurora I hosted my
post-budget town hall meeting to speak with residents of
Vaughan-King-Aurora, hear their views on the 1998 budget and to
solicit their recommendations for future fiscal and economic
policy.
Participants favoured the budget's balanced approach to economic
and fiscal management. They approved of the government's plan to
put the national debt on a permanent downward track, to provide
tax relief for 14 million Canadians and to make wise investments
in key priority areas such as health care, education, youth
employment, technology and research and development.
Residents agreed that a balanced budget is not an invitation for
a spending spree and share the view that we should not allow
deficits to threaten our economic sovereignty or our ability to
chart our own future as a nation.
Last Thursday, residents of Vaughan—King—Aurora showed a great
deal of confidence. They feel that as a nation we are into a new
era, an era of optimism and expanding opportunities for all.
* * *
TOBIQUE RIVER
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Tobique—Mactaquac, PC): Mr. Speaker,
the Tobique River runs from New Brunswick's tallest mountain,
Mount Carleton, to the wonderful village of Perth-Andover. It is
a favourite vacation spot and supports many communities as the
source of their drinking water.
Unfortunately, this delicate river is being contaminated by raw
sewage that discharges into the river from the thirty year old
Plaster Rock sewage lift station.
Who is responsible for defiling this beautiful river? Look no
further than the solicitor-general and MP for Fredericton.
Last year I joined with the residents and village council of
Plaster Rock in supporting a proposal that would have replaced
the ancient lift station. This project was vetoed by the
solicitor general because he thought the money could be better
spent building shiny new offices for his Liberal colleagues in
Grand Falls.
Shame on him. I hope that every time he takes a drink of water
or takes a bath or cooks his food he will stop and think about
what it would be like if his water was contaminated by raw
sewage.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
1415
[English]
THE SENATE
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, last week Environics released the results of one of the
largest polls on Senate reform ever taken in Alberta. Ninety-one
per cent of Albertans, including Premier Klein, want the right to
elect their next senator. Only seven per cent want senators
appointed by the Prime Minister.
Alberta has now called for a Senate election in the fall and it
will elect two standby senators.
Will the Prime Minister respect the wishes of 91% of Albertans
and appoint these standby senators to fill the next vacancies?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. leader of the Reform Party should have listened
to Albertans when he rejected an elected, equal Senate that was
proposed in the Charlottetown agreement. The people on this side
of the House voted for that.
Now the Reform wants to have a scheme that will perpetuate our
current Senate system. There are more people in Alberta today,
with six senators, than there are in the four Atlantic provinces
with 30 senators. I am not against elections for senators. I
voted for it and he voted against it.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, he knows as well as I do that Albertans wanted a triple
E Senate and that is why they rejected the half baked Senate
reform proposals in Meech Lake.
Three weeks ago we asked the Prime Minister about Senate
elections. He said we would like to reform the Senate and the
best way is to try to convince the provinces to do so.
Alberta has been convinced. It will have a Senate election this
fall.
What is the Prime Minister's excuse this time? In this
democratic age why should patronage appointments to the upper
house continue instead of respecting democratic elections?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, he talks about a half baked Senate reform but he is
proposing a one-third baked Senate reform because this has
nothing to do with the equality of senators and an effective
Senate. Why should we go with a one-third proposition? We had a
proposition for an equal, effective and elected Senate and they
voted against it.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, last month the Prime Minister said: “Senator Thompson
should do the honourable thing and resign. The Canadian people
are asking him to do so”. Ninety-one per cent of Albertans are
asking their unelected and unaccountable senators to do the
honourable thing and resign to make way for elected senators.
The Prime Minister told Andrew Thompson to resign. Will he now
tell the unelected, unaccountable senators from Alberta to resign
their seats?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the father of the leader of the Reform Party was
appointed to the Senate and he was a very respectable person.
Nobody asked him to resign because he had lost something in
accepting to serve in the upper chamber.
We have a system that was established in 1867. We did propose a
change to it and he said no.
I am for the reform of the Senate. I want real reform of the
Senate and I want to make sure the representation of the regions
will be better balanced. If we were to take the advice of the
Leader of the Opposition that would ensure we keep the same
system for generations to come.
I am responsible and when I vote I know the consequences,
something that—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Edmonton North.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
Senator Manning was always in favour of Senate reform and he
still would be if he were alive today.
This past Friday the Prime Minister appointed a new senator from
B.C. to fill a recent vacancy; another patronage appointment, his
friend Ross Fitzpatrick. It just so happens that the Prime
Minister was a director on the board of Fitzpatrick's company,
Viceroy Resource Corporation, and the Prime Minister was offered
up to 50,000 stock options.
Did the Prime Minister consult with the ethics counsellor before
appointing a man who had offered him stock options worth
potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I worked for a corporation with Mr. Fitzpatrick when I
was not in politics at all. I never realized the options that
were offered to me for my services to the company and I received
no remuneration when I was there. I am happy to quote the
premier of B.C. about the appointment of Mr. Fitzpatrick.
1420
He said he has a lot of time for Ross Fitzpatrick and has no
criticism of him. He said he was a big help during the
restructuring of Canadian Airlines and he believes he will be a
good advocate for B.C.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the people's republic of B.C. probably does not have a whole lot
to say on that because the Prime Minister went ahead. The only
Canadians who seem to be happy with the Senate the way it is are
the Prime Minister and of course the current senators who love
it.
Instead of an elected, accountable senator for B.C., British
Columbians now have to live under a man whose chief qualification
for that job is that he is a Liberal business pal of the Prime
Minister.
Let me ask the Prime Minister, if a Senate seat in B.C. is worth
50,000 stock options, just how much would it cost for an Alberta
seat in the Senate?
The Speaker: I will permit the Prime Minister to answer
the question.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, talking about Senate reform, I would like to quote
something and ask the member to apologize to the House for
talking about a senator we appointed, Archibald Johnstone, who is
a very respectable 73 year old man. She should apologize to him
and to all seniors for saying “sir, retire, get a motorhome and
go to Florida”. What an insult to people who are retired.
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, on
October 31, the Bloc Quebecois pointed out the disastrous effects
of EI reform.
The Minister of Human Resources Development told us that
“welfare figures in Quebec have not gone up since our reform”.
A scientific study has now shown, however, that Quebec's welfare
roles have swelled by 200,000 because of these new policies.
Is the minister finally aware of the devastating impact of his
reform?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I must say that I have not yet
had the honour and the pleasure of reading the study by Mr.
Fortin that the media drew to my attention this morning. I look
forward to it with much anticipation.
Mr. Fortin, however, was trying to measure the impact of several
successive EI reforms, and was not looking just at the reform it
was my pleasure to introduce last year. He was also looking at
the reform introduced by the Conservative government in 1990 and
another reform in 1994.
I stand by what I have already said on this topic, and I see that
the time—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Laurier—Sainte-Marie.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, Mr.
Fortin was indeed talking about the last three reforms, one by
the Conservatives and two by this government. That was his
focus.
On the day after International Women's Day, when we know that
women are the hardest hit by these reforms, what does the
minister have to say to all the women who have now joined the
ranks of those on welfare in Quebec as a direct result of the
reform he presided over in the House?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin by
pointing out that the number of welfare recipients in Quebec is
the lowest it has been in four years.
An hon. member: Oh, oh.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew: Absolutely. Members can check the
figures.
I can also tell the House that the preliminary figures
available to us show a decrease in the number of new
applications from women, and in the total number of new
applications. But I do not think it very likely that this
decrease can be chalked up to the reform. There has also been an
improvement in the economic context, with the creation of one
million additional jobs. This means fewer people needing EI.
Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire (Longueuil, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question
is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.
Women who work part time, and have to work twice as long to get
half the benefits, and mothers who are no longer entitled to
maternity benefits—these are the victims of the unemployment
insurance reforms, one of the most devastating offensives for
impoverishing women.
How can the minister claim that the reform is good for women when
10,000 fewer women were entitled to maternity leave in 1997?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, our reform was also for the
benefit of women, because it modified the system, which had been
based on the number of weeks worked. We brought in one based on
the number of hours worked, which benefits part-timers, who are
very often women.
1425
Other elements of our reform are also extremely helpful to
women. For example, they now have a far stronger attachment to
the work force, and can take far greater advantage of active
measures to help them return to work than in the past.
Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire (Longueuil, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
minister can certainly make fine speeches. He has been
subjecting us to his fine speeches for two years now.
Will the minister admit clearly and openly in this House today
that his reform is a real disaster for women?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the number of women in this
country whose work is now insured has risen by 450,000. In
other words, 450,000 more women are covered by employment
insurance, because access to the system is now hours-based.
With this new system, if they have been in the work force during
the last five years, they are now entitled to active measures to
help them return to the work force. This is a good reform, and
one that will help women get back into the work force.
* * *
[English]
HEALTH CARE
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, this weekend the Minister of Health asked Canadians to
lobby his own government for more money for medicare because he
just could not get through to his cabinet colleagues. Obviously
the minister pushed and lost at budget time. There was not one
cent for home care and not one new dollar for health care
transfers.
Will the Minister of Finance tell Canadians when they can expect
new dollars for a crumbling health care system and for badly
needed home care?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Minister of Health is very preoccupied, as we all
are, with this matter. That is why we have legislation before
the House at this moment to raise the floor for social transfers
to $12.5 billion, as recommended by the national forum on health.
In the last budget we committed $60 million of new money for a
blood agency and $211 million over five years for an HIV
strategy. There was an additional $134 million in the last
budget for medical research. Money was also given to care
givers—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre.
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, even the Minister of Health did not call what was in the
budget for health care an investment. He called it a forgone
cut.
The health care system is crumbling yet there are no new dollars
in the budget for health care transfers. Can the Prime Minister
explain just what are his government's plans? Will there be an
investment in home care this year? Will there be new dollars for
health care transfers this year?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, when I met with the first ministers in December we
discussed improvements for home care and pharmacare. They told
me it was not their priority at this time. They said this has to
be worked out among ministers. That is exactly what the Minister
of Health is doing today with his colleagues.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, last August provincial premiers asked the government
to make health care funding its top priority. Instead the recent
budget reflects that it has no priority. As a result, Premier
Binns wrote to Premier MacLellan asking him to speak with all the
premiers and territorial ministers about an immediate meeting
with the Prime Minister on health care funding.
Will the Prime Minister meet with those ministers?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I had the occasion to reply to that question earlier.
However, I will repeat that we have established a floor of $12.5
billion. That was the recommendation. The hon. member will be
invited to vote for it. It is exactly what the national forum on
health asked the government to do.
On top of that we have committed $60 million for a new blood
agency, $211 million over five years for a national HIV strategy
and a $134 million increase over three years for the medical
research council. The Minister of Finance also introduced new
care giver tax credits in the last budget. It is a fair amount
for one budget.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I take it that is a no.
1430
Nova Scotia will continue to see federal health care funding go
down over the next five years. That is the reality. Nova Scotia
Conservative Leader John Hamm has called on Russell MacLellan to
support a first ministers meeting on health care funding.
Last week the Prime Minister's solution to doctors who were
asking for increased health care funding was to throw a $10 bill
in the bucket. Is that the Prime Minister's answer to health
care funding, throwing $10 at the doctors?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I realize that the leader of the Tory Party in Nova
Scotia needs a lot of help.
The member has a very good premier. If I was in Nova Scotia I
would vote for a man of experience like Russell MacLellan.
* * *
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Mike Scott (Skeena, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, Bruce
Starlight wrote a confidential letter to the Minister of Indian
Affairs and Northern Development last year which was deliberately
leaked to Chief Roy Whitney.
The Reform Party asked the privacy commissioner to investigate.
The commissioner has now ruled that the minister's office broke
the law and violated the Privacy Act.
Since the minister's own investigation has not identified the
individual responsible, will she take personal responsibility for
this illegal behaviour?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have said on a number of
occasions in the House that I took the circumstances surrounding
the Bruce Starlight letter very seriously.
I asked for an investigation and it was completed. The privacy
commissioner too has completed an investigation and was unable to
identify how the letter got into the hands of Chief Whitney.
Having said that, it must be a very trying time for Mr.
Starlight. I apologize to him for anything that my department
did to create that difficult time for Mr. Starlight.
Mr. Mike Scott (Skeena, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the privacy
commissioner is explicit and unequivocal in his ruling. The
minister's office broke the law.
The record shows that the minister's office was in the habit of
breaking the law, based on testimony by hundreds of grassroots
aboriginals who have written to her. Yet we have not heard the
hint of an apology, until right now, from this minister to Mr.
Starlight.
Will the minister now stand in her place and apologize directly
to Mr. Starlight and his family for the anxiety, pain and
hardship they have had to endure because of her department's
illegal behaviour?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I believe I just did.
* * *
[Translation]
CHILD CARE EXPENSES
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is
for the Minister of Human Resources Development.
In its last budget, the federal government announced that
deductions for child care expenses would be increased. However,
the Quebec government has already begun implementing its $5 child
care services. This means that, from now on, Quebec parents will
have to pay hardly any money for child care.
Does the minister realize that, once again, a so-called national
tax measure is going against what Quebec has already
implemented, and that Quebeckers will not really benefit from the
federal initiative?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this
tax measure will greatly help parents in Quebec and I find it
unbelievable that the hon. member would oppose such initiative.
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
supplementary question is for the Minister of Human Resources
Development.
Does the minister realize that, once again, a so-called national
tax measure is going against what Quebeckers want?
The Quebec government program to provide child care services for
$5 will result in tax savings for the federal government.
Therefore, will the minister pledge to appropriately compensate
Quebec for the savings that his government will achieve?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I think my colleague, the
Minister of Finance, just gave a very good reply.
Obviously, we will make sure this tax measure benefits
Quebeckers in an appropriate manner, as we always do. Indeed, we
also make sure the Quebec government and Quebeckers get their
share. This is why transfers of some $10 billion are made to the
Quebec government, something which should help Mr. Landry when he
tables his budget next month.
* * *
[English]
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, last week
the privacy commissioner declared that Bruce Starlight's personal
information was improperly disclosed and that his rights had been
breached.
Why does the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
continue to dodge responsibility for the illegal actions of her
department? If she is not responsible, who is?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as a result of the
investigation that was completed there were seven recommendations
which came to me for implementation to improve the administration
of such letters in my department.
1435
We are implementing those recommendations as we speak. We have
taken responsible action.
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, Mr.
Starlight's rights have been violated, yet this minister refuses
to release the full investigative report into this very serious
offence. The minister has censored six out of the nine chapters
of that report.
Why is the minister so good at keeping secrets that would
embarrass her department and so bad at keeping secret the
confidential information given to her by Bruce Starlight in his
letter?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is quite the opposite.
Indeed it was very important from my point of view to share with
the public the results, the conclusions and the summary of the
investigation. We in fact briefed the opposition on the details
of that investigation.
As the hon. member will understand, the issue of the
investigation is itself about privacy. Certainly there are
procedures at play that we will very eagerly comply with if
someone wants to employ—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Drummond.
* * *
[Translation]
HEALTH
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is
for the Prime Minister.
According to a persistent rumour, the Minister of Health is
planning to establish a new $1 billion national home care
program.
Does the Prime Minister agree that this new program is first and
foremost designed to ensure the visibility of the federal
government, as suggested by a Health Canada official this
morning?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
everyone agrees that home care is a new health priority for all
the provinces and the federal government as well. That is why the
Minister of Health is having discussions with his counterparts to
try to come up with a program that is acceptable to all.
My apologies. I indicated earlier that the Minister of Health
met with ministers this morning. The meeting was not with
ministers but with members of the health community. He has
already met with the ministers, he is now meeting with members of
the community to look at how to further this issue, which is very
important to all Canadians.
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, if the Prime
Minister has money for health, why does he not heed the request
by the Fédération des femmes du Québec to restore transfer
payments to the provinces?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
that is exactly what I said earlier. The national health forum
met and asked that we set the cash floor at $12.5 billion and
that is exactly what we have done. We have introduced a bill,
Bill C-28, which is designed to ensure that transfers remain at
the desired level. Bill C-28 should be passed in the next few
days.
* * *
[English]
FISHERIES
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the fisheries minister stated that he would replace senior
bureaucrats if evidence showed they were responsible for the
collapse of the Atlantic fishery.
Will the minister accept the evidence of hundreds of fishermen
and scientists who testified before the committee about DFO's
incompetence and cover-ups which have led to this disaster? Will
he accept their evidence? Will he act now and fire the top
bureaucrats?
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I think, out of deference to the House
and its committee on fisheries, I as minister of fisheries should
wait until I receive the report of the fisheries committee.
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I am responding to comments made by the minister, not to
anything else. These comments were made by the minister. They
were in all the papers across the country.
Will the minister accept the evidence of thousands of fishermen
on both coasts and scientists who have stated that the management
of this fishery has been an absolute colossal disaster? Will he
act now and accept their evidence? It is his comments I am
asking about.
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this is one of the most curious questions
yet in the House. The hon. member asks me to look at the
evidence before the committee that the committee itself is meant
to evaluate. He wants me to substitute my opinion for that of 17
good members of Parliament whose job it was to examine the
evidence.
If he and his party believe that the members of parties on a
committee should be ignored, not considered, and that I should go
directly to those who speak to them, that is an extraordinary
approach for a member of the House.
* * *
1440
[Translation]
NATIVE WOMEN
Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): Mr. Speaker, one of the
recommendations by the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples
was that native women be included in the administration of
aboriginal health and healing facilities, as a means of lessening
the effects of the violence from which they and their children
too often suffer.
Can the minister explain to us why, in the action plan presented
last January in response to the Royal Commission, she does not
assign any lead role to aboriginal women in community health
programs and in the planned aboriginal health institute?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the effect of residential
schools was devastating for aboriginal people. As a result, in
our statement of reconciliation that we provided to aboriginal
people on January 7 the government took responsibility and
recognized the impact of past approaches to our relationship with
Canada's first people.
In the particular case of residential schools, the Native
Women's Association of Canada was offered a seat on the interim
board and it denied taking that seat.
* * *
THE BUDGET
Mr. John McKay (Scarborough East, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday was International Women's Day. The budget was of
considerable benefit to Canada's youth, to low income families
and to students. Yet women continue to be disproportionately
impoverished.
Would the Minister for the Status of Women tell the House what
if anything the budget held for women?
Hon. Hedy Fry (Secretary of State (Multiculturalism)(Status
of Women), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, there were significant
initiatives in the budget for women across the spectrum.
For low income women with children there is a tax benefit of
about $1.7 billion. For middle income women a 3% surtax has been
removed. For women working in the paid workforce there is an
increase in the child deduction benefits. For women who work at
home with no pay there is a caregiver tax credit. For women with
dependants who are students there is an up to $3,000 a year grant
so they can go to school. For women who are entrepreneurs and
who tend to have small incorporated businesses there is the
ability to deduct a health and death benefit.
* * *
FRANCOPHONE GAMES
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
it has now been revealed that Ottawa-Hull won the 2001
francophone games after the federal government sweetened its bid
by offering free air fare at a cost of several million dollars to
athletes coming from competing countries.
At the same time I regularly receive correspondence from
Canadian athletes who do not receive one thin dime for their
travel to participate in olympic and world events representing
Canada.
Could the minister tell our Canadian athletes why we are paying
the travel costs of foreign athletes to come to Canada when we
are not able to support our Canadian athletes participating
outside Canada?
Mrs. Claudette Bradshaw (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister
for International Cooperation, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, first I
congratulate our minister for getting the games to Canada.
Yes, we are negotiating how many young people we will be
bringing to our country so they can participate. As we take care
of children and youth here in our country, we will do the same
for the other countries when they come here.
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
this is the House of Commons of the people of Canada. I am
concerned about Canadian athletes.
In fact what was going on in that particular event, when we were
trying to get the francophone games here, was that we simply
outbid France and Lebanon in order to get them here.
I still ask the same question. What are our priorities? Why is
it that when we do not have enough money to be able to support
our Canadian athletes we can support foreign athletes, about
2,000 of them, at Canadian taxpayers' expense to come here?
Mrs. Claudette Bradshaw (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister
for International Cooperation, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we just
finished the games in Nagano. We did very well and we are quite
proud of our Canadian athletes, as we will be quite proud when we
hold the games in our country. Let us do it the Canadian way by
making sure that everyone will participate.
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, a report by the
economist Pierre Fortin shows that employment insurance reform
has created 730,000 welfare recipients in Canada.
Barely 40% of the unemployed in this country qualify for
employment insurance. Many people are therefore forced onto
welfare.
1445
Will the Minister of Human Resources Development use the
employment insurance fund surplus to come to the assistance of
these thousands of people who are suffering and to make it
easier for them to gain access to employment insurance? Will he
finally admit that these are rotten reforms and that changes must
be made immediately to employment insurance?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I had occasion to state a
little earlier in this House, I have not yet had the opportunity
to read Mr. Fortin's report.
From what I could get from this morning's papers, this is a study
which looked at the last three employment insurance reforms, back
to 1990, and speculates on the impact on welfare over the next
ten years. Thus a 20-year period is involved.
The figure of 200,000 additional recipients is over those 20
years. We will analyze it but I do not believe the way it has
been described here reflects the scientific reality that is found
in the report.
* * *
[English]
FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, NDP): Mr. Speaker, will the
Minister of Foreign Affairs tell this House what diplomatic steps
Canada is taking to ensure that Serbia respects the autonomy and
human rights of the citizens of the province of Kosovo? Can the
minister also assure us that Canada will be in the forefront of
advocating a concerted and immediate international response to a
conflict which has such dangerous regional and global
implications?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, our position is quite clear that the Federal
Republic of Yugoslavia's government must understand that the
repressive actions taken will not be tolerated by the
international community.
In support of international efforts, we are prepared to take the
following steps today: to put a halt to any export credit
through the Export Development Corporation; to put on hold any
negotiations with the Yugoslav airlines for landing rights; to
put on hold any discussions on bilateral efforts; and to consider
what kind of support we might provide on a humanitarian basis.
We will also have the opportunity tomorrow after the Prime
Minister meets with Secretary of State Albright to talk about how
Canada can join in a broader multilateral effort.
* * *
HEALTH CARE
Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Mr. Speaker,
last year the Prime Minister threw a sand bag to stop the flood
in Manitoba. Last week the Prime Minister gave $10 to stop the
crisis in health care in New Brunswick. Every premier, every
provincial finance minister, every health care worker and every
Canadian says there is a health care crisis.
Is the Prime Minister going to rebuild the health care system or
is he simply going to throw a sand bag on this particular crisis?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it seems that the hon. member will have a chance to vote
for Bill C-28 very soon. This bill will establish a floor of
$12.5 billion, an increase of $1.5 billion than was planned some
months ago. He should know this because I gave a long list to
his House leader.
The minister is meeting with the stakeholders today to discuss
an expansion of the system because home care is a big complement
to medicare. It is part of our program to help the provinces to
establish a very effective system of home care.
Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Mr. Speaker,
that answer is wearing very thin with Canadians, with premiers
and with the provincial finance ministers. The government has
not increased the floor of health care spending. It has simply
stopped the expenditures.
The health minister said Canadians have to put pressure on the
government to get more health care dollars. If the health
minister cannot do the job himself with his caucus, is the Prime
Minister prepared to replace the health minister with someone who
can?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member should go back to Winnipeg and look at
the budget of his provincial colleagues, the Tories, who reduced
taxes but did not add one cent to medicare.
* * *
[Translation]
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Claude Drouin (Beauce, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my question is for
the Minister of Agriculture.
Last Thursday, the Government of Quebec announced that it had
reached an agreement with the Government of Canada on a program
to compensate full time farmers. The Government of Quebec is
ignoring part time farmers.
Does the Government of Canada not feel that part time farmers
should receive fair treatment?
1450
[English]
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we feel it should be a fair program for
both part time and full time farmers. That is exactly why this
government announced on February 17 that because of the ice storm
we will treat part time farmers exactly the same as we treated
part time farmers in the Saguenay and in the Red River region. I
would encourage the Government of Quebec to come on side with a
subsidiary agreement so it too will treat part time farmers the
same as it treated part time farmers in the Saguenay.
* * *
CANADIAN ARMED FORCES
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
following the crash of a passenger plane in Manitoba on December
9, Canada's air force arrived at the scene four hours after a
civilian helicopter. An inquiry into the mission found that
unnecessary risks taken by the pilot, a lieutenant colonel, put
the Hercules itself and the town in jeopardy, yet the only one to
be punished for this was the junior officer.
Does the minister of defence feel it is good for morale to allow
a junior officer to once again be a scapegoat for his superior?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the matter is still under investigation.
We must bear in mind that lives needed to be saved here. The
aircraft sent in by the military went in under some very bad
weather conditions. The pilot had to make a judgment to disperse
the fuel so he could get in and out with the passengers at a
lower level than would normally be the case. He did it in as
safe a way as possible in a remote area north of the airfield. He
got in and was able to rescue people who were then able to get to
hospital.
* * *
[Translation]
STATUS OF WOMEN
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question
is for the Secretary of State for the Status of Women.
Budgets for promoting the status of women have been severely cut
in recent years. They now stand at a mere $8.2 million for all
of Canada, for over 400 women's groups.
In a period of budget surpluses, how can the Secretary of State
for the Status of Women justify that she has not managed to come
up with any additional money for women, when this is what women's
groups unanimously recommended to the Standing Committee on
Finance?
[English]
Hon. Hedy Fry (Secretary of State (Multiculturalism)(Status
of Women), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the budget cuts that came
about for every department in the past is what has brought us to
the point where we can now get rid of a $42 billion deficit. We
are now talking about what we gave to women in this budget. We
had a choice, we made a priority. We gave money to women so they
can live every day of their lives with the reality of extra money
and extra help. This budget did that. In future budgets we will
look at other things, but this budget addressed the reality of
women's lives.
* * *
PAY EQUITY
Ms. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Secretary of State for the Status of Women.
Pay equity is a basic human right that is denied to many
Canadian women. In acknowledging International Women's Week, the
secretary of state talks of pay equity and human rights. As we
celebrate International Women's Week, does the secretary of state
intend to have her government settle the pay equity dispute
within the public service? Will she put words into action and
prove to Canadians that women are truly equal and worthy in this
government's eyes?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
once again on the question of pay equity the government has made
a very generous offer. It is now only a matter of the unions to
answer that offer. We have gone from about $300 million to $1.3
billion. During this time, the unions have not even moved from
their position. If anything they have increased it.
In the circumstances we are in favour of pay equity. We will
continue to fight for it for the women who deserve it.
* * *
HEALTH
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Tobique—Mactaquac, PC): Mr. Speaker,
four years ago at the age of 43 Wanda Bradstreet died from
hepatitis C. She was a victim of tainted blood transfusions she
received 10 years earlier. Her husband had to leave work in
order to care for her because she was too ill to work. Eventually
they had to sell their business to pay the expenses associated
with her liver transplant. Mr. Bradstreet still has outstanding
bills. The Minister of Health has been stalling. Why does this
government not use some compassion and leadership and act
unilaterally—
The Speaker: The hon. parliamentary secretary.
Mr. Joseph Volpe (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member in a moment of
rationality will acknowledge that the minister's initiatives in
this regard are the only things going. The minister has already
acted unilaterally. He has shown leadership. He has invited his
colleagues at the provincial level to participate with him in a
joint program. He has given them very clear indications and
parameters.
He has invited them to sit at the table, to negotiate properly
and to ensure that this issue is put to rest once and for all for
the sake of all who suffered this regrettable tragedy.
* * *
1455
FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Mr. Andrew Telegdi (Kitchener—Waterloo, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
The present situation in Kosovo where over 100 ethnic Albanians
have been killed is intolerable. We cannot allow a repeat of the
slaughter and ethnic cleansing that accompanied the break-up of
the former Yugoslavia.
Will the minister consider supporting the extension of the
authority of the tribunal for war crimes to include Kosovo and
help to bring about a speedy resolution of the present conflict?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, we have already taken a number of
independent measures to send the message to the regime in the
Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
In London today the contact group for the Balkans did recommend
that the international tribunal take under advisement applying
its jurisdiction. That should be discussed with the chief
prosecutor.
It is certainly a measure which the Prime Minister and I will
have the opportunity to discuss tomorrow with Secretary of State
Albright.
We will participate in international actions to try to bring
peace and stability to Kosovo under the circumstances which we
think are the most effective.
* * *
TAXATION
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
imagine that Canadians have to leave the country to find work.
That is not uncommon these days. Now the moment they leave the
federal government is forcing them to pay taxes on their Canadian
assets even though they have not yet been sold.
First it was the head tax on immigrants. Now it is an exit tax
on all those economic refugees who are fleeing this country
because of high taxes.
How can the minister expect Canadians to pay millions of dollars
in taxes on capital gains they have not yet realized?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the measure to which the hon. member refers has in fact
been in place for a considerable number of years. This is not a
new procedure. What is happening is that it is being extended to
other forms of property.
I would point out to the hon. member that one would not be
obliged to pay taxes when leaving the country if in fact one was
able or desirous of posting security.
* * *
[Translation]
CANADIAN CENTRE AGAINST SEXUAL ABUSE
Mrs. Maud Debien (Laval East, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is
for the Minister of Justice.
In a letter signed on June 5, the former justice minister
undertook to provide the Canadian centre against sexual abuse
with annual funding of $1 million over the next five years.
Since then, the centre has been given to understand that it will
receive only part of this money.
Since we are still awaiting a reply from the minister, can she
tell us whether or not she intends to honour the commitment made
by the former justice minister and see that the centre receives
the promised funding, or is this again—
[English]
The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Justice.
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I hope everyone in the House
knows that this government is committed to fighting domestic
violence wherever it happens.
My predecessor made a number of commitments in relation to
funding for projects to address domestic violence across the
country. We are negotiating with those groups right now to
determine levels of funding.
* * *
IMMIGRATION
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Prime Minister.
The government has allowed only very limited public hearings on
the immigration legislative review. Already there is resounding
opposition to the discriminatory and biased recommendations
particularly as they pertain to language, education and refugees.
Will the Prime Minister assure the House that these
recommendations will be rejected by the government and that
legislation will not be forced through?
Ms. Maria Minna (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Citizenship and Immigration, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, first of all
this is the first time that a minister has gone out to consult on
recommendations. This is not a government report nor is it
government policy.
I have talked to the minister during the last 10 days. She is
still holding consultations.
There are very good recommendations in the report, but there are
sections which the minister herself has said publicly many times
this past week that she has some very serious concerns with. She
has expressed those views publicly and very clearly. There are
sections in the report which also have some good recommendations.
The report will be studied by the minister. She is consulting.
It is a very good omen for this country.
1500
The Speaker: That would bring to a close our question
period for today.
Colleagues, I have notice of a question of privilege raised by
the hon. House leader for the Progressive Conservative Party. I
will hear that question of privilege now.
* * *
PRIVILEGE
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege that arises from a
circumstance surrounding a newspaper article which appeared in
the March 8 edition of the Ottawa Sun. Within that article
there were quotations attributed to members of this House which,
in my view, constitute an overt and outrageous attempt to
intimidate you, the Speaker of this House, and collectively the
House itself.
It is my hope that the members involved will rise in their place
and tell the House that they have been misquoted and that the
remarks that were attributed to them are in fact untrue. Perhaps
we should all recall what Samuel Johnson said when he said that
patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Mr. Speaker, I have sent you the article and have tabled it with
the Table. This article, which appeared on page 7 of the March 8
edition, was headlined “Standing on guard for flag—MPs
threaten Speaker's job in flap over Maple Leaf, anthem”. I am
not going to go through all of the quotations from within that
article, but I would suggest that they were inappropriate and
intended to intimidate or, at the very least, affect you in your
ruling on this matter.
What we do in this House certainly is watched by the nation. I
would suggest that this article, which appears in public, affects
the integrity of this entire House. Members of this House are
certainly entitled to agree or disagree with the wisdom of your
rulings, Mr. Speaker. If they do not like the way the Speaker
rules or they do not like the way you are acting in your office,
they have every right to voice objections. However, they should
do so by way of a substantive motion in this House.
What members do not have the right to do, I suggest, is to make
statements on these matters which are before the Chair for
adjudication and, through these statements, attempt to influence
the judgment before it has been rendered.
Mr. Speaker, influencing your rulings through the media is
totally wrong. It really will not matter, I suggest, what your
judgment is for these statements have now prejudiced whatever you
do.
Mr. Speaker, the parliamentary authorities are clear and
unqualified on this point. Erskine May states on page 150 of the
19th Edition:
You, Mr. Speaker, are a member of this House. It also states on
page 230:
Reflections upon the character or actions of the Speaker may be
punished as breaches of privilege. His action cannot be
criticized incidentally in debate or upon any form of proceeding
except a substantive motion.
I also quote from citation 168 at page 49 of Beauchesne's:
Confidence in the impartiality of the Speaker is an
indispensable condition of the successful working of procedure,
and many conventions exist which have as their object, not only
to ensure the impartiality of the Speaker but also, to ensure
that there is a general recognition of the Speaker's
impartiality.
1505
The material that is before you in this article touches upon
your high office. It is not fair for you yourself to resolve
this matter. I would suggest it is a matter that is best left
for the judgment of the House itself.
While it might be argued that these statements were made outside
the House and therefore should not fall under the purview or
rubric of the question of privilege, I would suggest that it is
clear from the precedents that this House has addressed such
matters of contempt in the past.
Citation 78, page 21 of Beauchesne's again clearly speaks to
this issue and it states the Speaker should be protected against
reflections on his or her actions. Citations 71.2, 71.3 and
71.4 also provide direction on this point, Mr. Speaker.
I suggest it is therefore evident that this House has in the
past considered media reports to be within the ambit of its
jurisdiction. The statements attributed to the members of this
House serve to undermine your authority by their very utterance.
They give the impression that the Speaker will give a judgment
based on partisan consideration or that he will act out of fear
or censorship from some members of this House.
The partisanship should not affect your rulings whatsoever. The
speakership of the House is not to be brought into these partisan
battles. In Beauchesne's again, as a point of reference, the
essential ingredient of the speakership is to be found in the
status of the speaker as a servant of the House. The presiding
officer, while but a servant of the House, is entitled on all
occasions to be treated with the greatest attention and respect
by the individual members because the office embodies the power,
dignity and honour of the House itself.
I repeat that duty upon this matter should be placed before the
House. The reference for that, the Speaker should be protected
against reflections on his or her actions at all times.
Your integrity has been brought into question and compromised by
these statements. In matters such as this, I suggest it is up to
the House to act. It would be inappropriate for you, Mr.
Speaker, now to be put in the position of having to try to
explain this situation or scold its members. This is not a
matter for the Speaker. It is a matter for the House and it is
incumbent upon us to defend you.
Until there is a denial of these statements or until there is an
apology tendered to this House, to the Speaker, there is a cloud
over your chair in this House. Therefore, I would ask that you
find that there is a prima facie case of privilege before this
House requiring immediate consideration and in that event, I am
prepared to move the following motion:
That certain statements attributed to members of the House of
Commons may bring into question the integrity of the House of
Commons and its servant, the Speaker, those comments appearing at
page 7 on the March 8, 1998 Ottawa Sun be referred to the
Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.
[Translation]
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, first let me say that, at least as
far as I am concerned, and I am convinced I am expressing the
opinion of all the members of this House, we have, of course,
full confidence in your work.
I would like to quote—and this may seem strange to you—what I
said myself on February 26, 1998. At the time, I proposed the
following to the House, and I quote:
In a spirit of calm, the House leaders of the parties will
carry
on their tradition, as the member for Roberval said himself, of
finding some common ground on a number of thorny issues. Our
behaviour this afternoon in this matter indicates just how
thorny it is and perhaps for obvious reasons, without going into
all the details.
For someone like myself who believes strongly in the unity of his
country, flag waving is not provocation, but an act of pride.
Someone of a different persuasion may see it differently, and I
accept that. I find it regrettable, but I accept it.
A little further, you said yourself, and I quote:
We have had a suggestion from the hon. government House leader
that the House leaders of the different parties come together to
discuss how these things should be handled—
Mr. Speaker, you yourself offered to speak on behalf of the hon.
member for York South—Weston since, as an independent member, he
does not have a House leader.
1510
What I want to say is that, at the time, we agreed to discuss
the issue amongst ourselves and then make a recommendation to the
Speaker, on behalf of the House leaders. The Speaker himself
would have consulted the independent member.
[English]
That being said, I found the article rather unusual because in
fact the article suggested that Mr. Speaker is going to rule on
this today.
Of course this would be surprising to me because in fact the
House leaders have not met. Therefore, we have not had the
opportunity of making our recommendations to Mr. Speaker and
presumably Mr. Speaker would not be ruling until having heard
that recommendation, given what Your Honour said the last day we
sat.
That being said, there will be a meeting of House leaders as
early as tomorrow. While I cannot predict a conclusion of any
discussions we will or might have tomorrow, I can surely say to
Mr. Speaker that we will not be making a recommendation until at
least late in the day tomorrow and possibly later.
Therefore, someone speculating on what the ruling of the Speaker
might be today is very hypothetical, particularly given that the
Speaker will not be making, I believe, a ruling on this issue
today for the reasons I have just outlined.
Maybe we should all take another deep breath—as we did on
Thursday, February 26—for a couple of days and let the events
unfold as they should. In other words, the House leaders would
meet, make a recommendation to Your Honour, then we can discuss
it and a ruling can come down.
In the meantime perhaps we can all contribute by ensuring that
our discussions are held through our various House leaders rather
than by using other means.
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
would like to comment briefly on the question of privilege raised
by the House leader of the Progressive Conservatives.
I have two or three comments. First of all, we of course are
kind of half way through the due process to be followed on this.
As the government House leader has already mentioned, this has
already been referred to not only yourself but also to the House
leaders for discussion and hopeful resolution before it comes to
a prima facie case of privilege and a full-blown debate here in
the House.
We are already in the midst of dealing with this in whatever
fashion is deemed appropriate and the due process I would say
would be improperly interrupted at this time, to start a debate
when that process has not had a chance to come to fruition.
Second, I kind of agree with the hon. House leader of the
government that this speculation that today you were going to
make a ruling again is, was, is, was, still is speculation.
I see in the other reports today that you are going to make
another ruling tomorrow on this and you may not have even known
that yet. The facts of the matter are not as printed in the
article in the Ottawa paper.
Third, I have faith that when the time comes you will make a
judgment and a ruling. I am not supposing that a single article
in a newspaper is going to be the one that sways the Speaker one
way or the other.
You will make a ruling, I am convinced, on the proper legality
of the arguments and the soundness of the arguments. I do not
think a newspaper article by anyone is going to particularly sway
you.
I think we should take a bit of a breather on this thing,
discuss it as was agreed during the last week the House was in
session and I think we can come back with an agreement that will
settle this once and for all.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, while
recognizing the efforts made by the government leader and by the
Reform whip, I would like to come back to the substance of the
point raised by the leader of the Progressive Conservative Party
in this House, which is an extremely serious one, in fact the
most serious matter that has been raised in this Parliament since
I, and many others I am sure, have been sitting in this place.
Here is what this is about. You have very clearly stated, to the
satisfaction of all members of this House, that you would be
ruling on the disturbance at question period the other day, which
was brought to your attention.
1515
What is serious about this matter is that members were named in
the item and their remarks were quoted. They have threatened the
Chair. Never in any Parliament—I do not know if this will get
through—does anyone, even the Reformers, have the right to
threaten the Speaker. To threaten the President is to threaten
the Chair. And the Chair in any Parliament is the institution
that ensures that all democratically elected parliamentarians can
speak. To threaten the person in charge of protecting the right
of parliamentarians to speak is to threaten Parliament itself.
Members of Parliament, including the Reform members for Edmonton
East, Yorkton—Melville and Elk Island, clearly said the Speaker
better watch himself because they would replace him.
Such a threat cannot be tolerated.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Michel Gauthier: Reformers had better listen up. At this
rate, their beloved Parliament is threatened to disappear. There
are also Liberal members involved, who, like the members for
Timiskaming—Cochrane and Pickering—Ajax—Uxbridge, simply said
“We will challenge the Speaker”.
Never will the Speaker of the House of Commons or the Speaker of
a Parliament accept that members of Parliament, whose right to
speak he is in charge of protecting, tell him through the papers
to do as they please or face the consequences. That is a threat.
An hon. member: That is intimidation.
Mr. Michel Gauthier: That is unacceptable. That is appalling.
That is intimidation, and those Reformers who are laughing
probably do not understand what they are doing, because the best
way to destroy a country is to destroy its Parliament. By
destroying the Chair—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Michel Gauthier: —they are destroying Parliament and their
country.
[English]
The Speaker: I would like to hear what hon. members have
to say on this matter. This is our parliament. It deals with
our parliament. I hope we will extend to each other the courtesy
of listening when one of us has to speak.
I am going to return to the hon. member for Roberval.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Gauthier: Mr. Speaker, surprisingly, this is the
second time in two weeks that I am obliged to rise in this House
to explain to the great saviours of Canada, to those who want to
preserve it at all costs, that they themselves are destroying
their own country. It is totally ridiculous.
We are advocating a political option that threatens the existence
of Canada in its current form. However, the members of the Bloc
Quebecois could never be criticized for failing to respect this
country's institutions and the Chair.
We do not have the right, you do not have the right and no one
here has the right to threaten the Chair, whoever may occupy it.
You, Mr. Speaker, have always had the confidence of this House.
We elected you. You the full respect of the government, of the
Bloc—as we have said—of the Conservative Party, which is
rightly concerned by events here, and of the New Democratic
Party, most certainly.
1520
The political parties in this House cannot allow individuals,
who, obviously, do not know where they are headed when they make
such serious accusations as this against the Chair, to destroy
the institution of Parliament.
The best way to destroy a country is to destroy Parliament. We
do not want to destroy Canada, we want to rework it and to make a
Canada that functions well in partnership with a Quebec that
functions well. We do not, however, want to destroy the
institutions. They do.
I close by saying that your role, Mr. Speaker, is to protect the
right of speech of parliamentarians and not to protect
partisanship, which is what these people want you to do.
[English]
Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to submit that this is certainly not a case
of contempt of parliament because the comments and questions
attack individuals and not parliament as a whole.
As it happens we in the House are always subject to criticisms
and attacks. The Prime Minister is subject to it on a daily
basis in question period. I submit, Mr. Speaker, that you should
be subject to it from time to time as well, if MPs so choose to
make these comments.
The very essence of free speech in a democracy is that every
member of Parliament has the opportunity and the right to express
his views no matter how unpalatable they are to the rest of us.
It is the very essence of a democracy that the newspapers have a
right to seek and report those views.
In this case there was no threat. There was merely speculation
that you, Mr. Speaker, would be subject to extreme criticism from
within this parliament because of whatever decision you might
bring down in this instance.
I remind you, Mr. Speaker, you are an elected person. I can
remember at the end of the last parliament there was a great deal
of newspaper speculation about whether you would be re-elected in
the next parliament as a result of some of the decisions that you
made. This is normal. This is the kind of fair comment that
should exist in a democracy.
We cannot stop MPs from expressing themselves even though the
majority of us may disagree with what they say. It is a threat
to free speech if in any way, Mr. Speaker, you rule that this is
a case of contempt.
[Translation]
Mr. Benoît Serré (Timiskaming—Cochrane, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, you
know the respect I have for you and for the role you perform in
the House.
Mr. Yvan Loubier: You do not have any respect, saying things like
that.
Mr. Benoît Serré: I will not get up on my high horse, like the
member for Roberval. I will try to keep my remarks calm and
rational.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: The member for Timiskaming—Cochrane.
Mr. Benoît Serré: I was going to say that you know the respect I
have for you, for the role you perform in the House and for this
institution.
The Ottawa Sun has attributed comments to me. You know that
journalists take a half-hour conversation and boil it down to one
sentence.
Mr. Yvan Loubier: No, no. It is a quote.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Benoît Serré: I would ask the separatist members to have the
respect to listen, as they asked us to do earlier. We were quiet
and listened to the member for Roberval. We ask that you show
the same respect.
The comments I made to the journalists amounted to one thing:
the position I took was that, as a Canadian citizen, elected by
Canadians to sit in the Parliament of Canada, I felt—
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
The Speaker: I am going to hear what the member for
Timiskaming—Cochrane has to say.
Then I will come back to the point of order. We are now talking
about a point of privilege.
1525
Mr. Benoît Serré: Mr. Speaker, what I
was going to say is that, as a Canadian citizen elected by
Canadians to sit in the Parliament of Canada, it is not only my
right but my duty to promote the Canadian flag and all it
represents.
If my comments are perceived by anyone as an attack against or a
lack of respect to the Chair, I withdraw them and apologize.
The point I wanted to make, is that I, as the member for
Timiskaming—Cochrane, have taken the position that I have a right
and a duty to show the Canadian flag in the House, in the
Canadian Parliament, and that, regardless of the Speaker's
decision on this, I am prepared to carry the flag and to face up
to the consequences of the Speaker's ruling like a man.
Mr. Yvan Loubier: And he is sexist to boot.
[English]
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I
participate in this question of privilege on behalf of my party
with a great deal of reluctance. However, having listened to
what has been said, this is not a debate about the
appropriateness of the flag or whatever.
Mr. Speaker, we made the arguments in the House of Commons in
the usual thoughtful and eloquent way before we recessed. We
asked that you make a decision on the appropriateness of what
happened. That is the issue and you are weighing that decision
now.
However, while you were making that decision and presumably
looking at the Debates and contemplating the comments that
were made, some members of this House—I do not want to identify
them—made comments such as “he will demand the Speaker's
removal if he rules in favour of the BQ”. Another person said
“if he rules any other way I am most offended and I think we
will have to call for the election of a new Speaker”. Somebody
else went on to say “there will be grave consequences if he does
not rule in favour of our position”. Another warned that the
Speaker would face demands for his resignation.
Mr. Speaker, those are threats to you. People are going to
demand your resignation. They are going to call for a vote if
your decision does not go in their favour.
How many of us have listened to your decisions time and time
again and the automatic reaction, whether or not we agree
personally, is to accept those decisions and move on. We have to
accept whatever decision you take as our representative elected
by the House.
An hon. member: He hasn't made a decision.
Mr. Nelson Riis: That is the point. As the Reform whip
has indicated, you have not made a decision but while you are
considering the arguments, as the House leader for the
Conservative Party put so eloquently, we ought not to be issuing
comments that could be considered by yourself as a threat.
Before this ends it would be appropriate for those people who
are quoted at least to indicate the point they were making if it
was not a threat to the Speaker's decision. I put a simple
question to bring this to an end. If it is not a problem, what
were those comments intended to produce?
[Translation]
Mr. Dan McTeague (Pickering—Ajax—Uxbridge, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am
also rising to speak in light of the comments attributed to me in
this weekend's Toronto Sun as well as the Ottawa Sun.
Those comments do not refer to the Chair or to yourself, but
obviously to a larger question: the privilege of all the members
in this House.
1530
[English]
The thousands of men and women who laid down their lives for
this country, in defence of the unity of this country, are being
insulted each and every day with the continuation of this debate.
They fought for a united country and a united flag.
It is for those reasons that I have absolutely no desire at this
point to suspend free speech, to allow members of Parliament not
to be able defend themselves when veterans are talking to them
about what is going on in this great House.
There are grave consequences to whatever decision should be
made, Mr. Speaker. That is not a reflection on you. However,
this Parliament should not dismiss it, in a rather dilatory
fashion, by trying to throw out a couple of interesting rules
which are suddenly conjured up, especially when the country is
concerned about national unity.
I may have an opportunity to be quoted by a person of the press
as to my position with respect to the flag. If that causes any
difficulty to the Chair then I sincerely apologize for it, but I
do not apologize for the unity of my country, nor do I apologize
for the Canadian flag, especially with the separatists.
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton—Melville, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I would like the leader of the Bloc to rise in his place
and withdraw his accusation. He made a mistake. He was in
error. He had his facts wrong when he directly accused me of
comments I did not make. In the diatribe which he just gave he
named me specifically. I think it is in order that he withdraw
it immediately because it is a false accusation.
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I rise—
[Translation]
The Speaker: I am listening.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
The Speaker: The member for Elk Island has the floor first, and
you have it after him.
[English]
Mr. Ken Epp: Mr. Speaker, I rise on what I think is a
very solemn occasion. I want to assure you, the electorate of my
riding and all Canadians that I have nothing but respect for this
place, what it stands for, for your office, for your position and
for the duties which you bear.
When I have expressed myself on this issue I want to make it
very clear that I have done so on principles which I believe in
very strongly.
My parents came to this country to seek freedoms, the freedom of
expression being among them. I am here to defend that.
I would also like to speak specifically to the motion which the
member from the Conservative Party is proposing concerning the
issue before us. He is calling for this to be an immediate point
of privilege. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that there can be no
immediate point of privilege since you have not yet brought your
ruling. Therefore I think you need to rule against this being an
immediate issue.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I rose on a
point of order, which, unfortunately, seems fruitless to me at
this point, but I will make my point for other cases that may
arise.
May I respectfully remind you that, last week, the Chair ruled
that members with a flag on their desk would not be recognized
so long as you had not made your ruling. You recognized our
colleagues from Timiskaming—Cochrane and Elk Island, who,
however, had a Canadian flag on their desk.
I want to make myself quite clear here. We have no objection to
the presence of Canadian flags in this House.
That is not the issue. The fact is that the Canadian flag, like
the national anthem two weeks ago, was used knowingly not in an
expression of pride in the flag or the anthem, but simply to
interrupt, deride and intimidate one of our colleagues. What is
unacceptable is the partisan use of a symbol that should be an
object of respect. They lowered themselves in using it, as my
colleague for Roberval put it, as a mere tool of protest.
I therefore remind you of the ruling by the Chair not to
recognize members with a Canadian flag on their desk until the
Chair has given its ruling.
An hon. member: They have no respect for the Chair.
1535
The Speaker: Before giving the floor to the hon. member for
Scarborough—Rouge River, I want to say that the hon. member for
Verchères is right.
The Speaker in this Chair at the time ruled on the flags that
were here. And there are some here now.
I think the matter before us at the moment is very important for
Parliament. I would kindly ask the following of all members
here.
[English]
Please co-operate while I am listening to a point of privilege,
a privilege that affects all of us in this House. Because it
affects all of us, it affects all Canadians. So I would ask you
very respectfully, while I am hearing this point of privilege
please remove the flags or leave them on your desks for a minute.
I go to the hon. member for Scarborough—Rouge River.
Mr. Derek Lee (Scarborough—Rouge River, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the issue we are discussing here now, and I know we all
want to get back to the work we have come here to do this
afternoon, is not what we are calling the flag issue. That matter
has been taken under advisement by Mr. Speaker and by the House
leaders. I am fairly sure we will end up with a resolution on
that. For those members who want to push the flag issue or
whatever, perhaps while our leadership in the House is dealing
with this, this is not the most appropriate time to push the
envelope.
I do not really want to talk about the flag here in the way it
has been spoken of by some members. What I want to address is the
point of privilege that has been raised by the House leader for
the Progressive Conservative Party and it is a very important
point of privilege.
At this point it is important for us all to realize that what
has happened by this particular publication is that the office of
the Speaker in which we place our trust, all of us as members,
has been taken out of this place and taken out into the street.
The office of the Speaker has been dealt with in a manner and in
a way that the Speaker is unable by himself to deal with because
of the nature of his office and the impartiality which he is
called on to use and to exhibit as he works in this House.
Some of our colleagues have caused this to happen. Maybe they
have been induced by aggressive journalists to make it happen. I
will leave to colleagues the decision as to whether or not it
should have happened, whether it was good or bad or right or
wrong. But right now the member raising this matter of privilege
has asked the Speaker to find that it is a matter of the
privileges of this House, prima facie, and that he should take it
under consideration and have the matter disposed of at the
committee designated for that purpose.
Although all of us here will not be fully familiar with all the
bits and pieces of the parliamentary privilege that goes in to
making up the rules and the regime that I have tried to
articulate here, I know that Mr. Speaker will have the full
benefit of that in looking at this issue.
1540
I submit that all you have to do today, and perhaps I make it
sound like a simple question, is determine whether what has been
alleged here today, which is generally not disputed, is
sufficiently egregious vis-à-vis the privileges of the House to
cause you to find that it is a prima facie breach of the
privileges and to ask members to dispose of it.
I am not able to add my voice to whether it is or is not because
the evidence is contained in a newspaper report and some of
comments of members here.
I submit that is what we should be dealing with now. We should
not be dealing with the broader matter of the so-called flag
issue here.
The other minor comments that have come up that have caused
members to react on both sides of the House I would hope could be
dealt with very quickly so that we can allow Mr. Speaker to move
on to the business of the House for the day.
Mr. Ivan Grose (Oshawa, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, at this point
I will make an admission. I was the initiator of the
demonstration that was put on last Thursday.
It was to illustrate my patriotism, my love for my country and
my love for the flag. I thought I and my country and this House
had been offended. That was my way of demonstrating that I had
been offended, my country had been offended and this House had
been offended.
It may have been ill advised. It never was supposed to go this
far. At this point I would ask hon. members on both sides of the
House whether we could let this thing die and whether we could
get on with the business that we are supposed to be doing for the
people who elected us.
As far as I am concerned, it is a dead issue. I would ask all
members, on both sides of the House, to adopt the same attitude.
We have important business to do and what we are doing now is
not important business. I very much doubt that I can get
unanimous consent, but I will try for it.
The Speaker: Colleagues, as I said a little earlier, this
is a serious matter. The hon. House leader of the Progressive
Conservative Party, the member for Scarborough—Rouge River, the
member for Kamloops and others have underlined the seriousness of
this matter before the House. I would like the indulgence of the
House.
SUSPENSION OF SITTING
The Speaker: I will suspend the House until 4 p.m. At
that time I will return with a decision.
(The sitting of the House was suspended at 3.40 p.m.)
1610
SITTING RESUMED
The House resumed at 4.10 p.m.
SPEAKER'S RULING
The Speaker: My colleagues, I thank you for your
indulgence. I have sought advice and I have considered the
matter that is before us today. It is very important that the
House be seized with this matter.
I find a prima facie case and I am going to permit the hon.
House leader of the Progressive Conservative Party to put his
motion. After the motion has been put we will begin debate until
we have ceased debating.
* * *
HOUSE OF COMMONS
STANDING COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, in light of your ruling that a prima facie case
exists, I move:
That certain statements attributed to members of the House of
Commons which may bring into question the integrity of the House
of Commons and its servant the Speaker, appearing at page 7 of
the March 8, 1998 Ottawa Sun, be referred to the Standing
Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.
1615
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is with regret that I rise to speak on
this issue. It is unfortunate we have found ourselves in this
position. It is obvious that what occurred here in the House of
Commons invoked a visceral and emotional response from many of
its members. That is not the issue or the point I wish to bring
to the floor.
The main issue here is the integrity of this place and of you as
our Speaker. What we have seen happen here is tantamount to an
effort, deliberate or otherwise, to undermine your integrity. To
make an analogy, I would suggest it would be totally
inappropriate for litigators in a court case to step outside the
court room to comment on a decision of a judge in the wake of
that decision. What has happened in this case before the House
is very similar to that. We have members of this House choosing
to comment. I choose my words cautiously when I suggest that it
may be for the purpose of threatening you, to make you decide in
one way or another.
What has happened is very unfortunate. It is with regret that
we have to go through this. If those members choose in their
wisdom to withdraw or to clarify what they intended by making
these statements in such a way, that may cause the issue to
settle down. All members of this House must be very cautious not
only in what they say on the floor of the House of Commons but
also in what they say outside these doors.
Mr. Speaker, this matter must be dealt with by the entire House
because you have found yourself in a compromised position as a
result of what I would suggest is a personal slight to you as the
Speaker. Again, it is with some regret that I move this motion
but it is a very important matter which we must deal with. We
should deal with it as quickly as possible so we can move on to
deal with the very important business of the nation.
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I will take a moment to ensure
all colleagues have knowledge of the exact content of the motion.
I know earlier today there was at least the possibility of
something somewhat different being moved. If I understand
correctly, these are the precise words:
That certain statements attributed to members of this House of
Commons may bring into question the integrity of the House of
Commons and its servant the Speaker appearing at page 7 of the
March 8, 1998 Ottawa Sun be referred to the Standing
Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.
I do not want to speak for very long. I wish we would return to
the budget debate. It is the reason many MPs are here today and
their constituents expect them to speak on the budget. I want to
return to that as quickly as possible but I will make a few brief
comments.
Your Honour has ruled in his judgment which I respect that this
is a prima facie case of privilege. We should support the motion
now that you have ruled that way. In so doing that would
indicate our support for Mr. Speaker which I look forward to do.
Members who are accused—and I use that word loosely—or whose
reputations are being taken into question with this motion will
have the opportunity to defend themselves. I hope they will be
vindicated as I hope they meant no harm. I trust they meant no
harm. I have been here a long time and I know many of the members
personally. In my heart I believe they meant no harm. I hope in
the end that will be the conclusion of the procedure and House
affairs committee. It is for that committee to make a
recommendation which will then be brought to the floor of this
House.
Mr. Speaker, meanwhile we respect the decision you have made, a
decision whereby there is a prima facie case of privilege. That
is what you have ruled. Having said that, it is our duty to
support the decision you have made by referring the issue to the
committee as quickly as possible. I hope we will not have a
prolonged debate on this issue.
1620
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
this issue goes to the issue of freedom of speech in Canada. If
we or any other member of the population of Canada are not free
to speak our mind, if we are going to be shut down and censored,
that is absolutely and totally unconscionable in the democracy of
Canada. This cannot stand.
If this is referred to the procedure and House affairs
committee, the matter will be dragged out which might be to the
benefit of certain people who have ulterior political motives.
More importantly these people who have very simply spoken their
minds will then be dragged through a very long, arduous
procedure, and for what effect?
It is absolutely unconscionable that we could possibly be voting
in favour of a motion to turn this over to procedure and House
affairs. We must at all cost stand up for the principle of
freedom of speech and democracy.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it is most
unfortunate that we find ourselves in this kind of situation.
There is a motion before this House to debate remarks, extremely
offensive remarks made by some members, which go far beyond
anything said in the past about the Chair as an institution and
hopefully not about the person in the Chair.
Allow me to summarize the facts for the benefit of everyone. We
will recall that some members disrupted oral question period.
These are objective facts can anyone can verify.
All members of this House are welcome to check the video
recording of the proceedings if they want to.
Members disrupted oral question period by preventing one of our
members, namely the member for Rimouski—Mitis, from putting her
question to the government and preventing the government from
answering.
To this end, they used the flag. Everyone respects the flag.
Everyone respects the national anthem. Everyone respects
Parliament. Or so they say. In fact, however, what the Liberal
members, who now seem repentant, and members of the Reform Party,
who are not repentant, did—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
[English]
The Speaker: Colleagues, when we talk about freedom of
speech, surely we should be listening to what each other has to
say. I would encourage all hon. members to listen to each other
out of courtesy.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Gauthier: Mr. Speaker, thank you for enforcing my
right to speak. I am grateful to you for protecting my privileges
as a parliamentarian in this House. Were it not for you, I would
not be able to speak in this place as the parliamentary leader of
44 members. That is incredible, Mr. Speaker. Thank you. I
appreciate this parliamentary protection you are giving me. I
appreciate the fact that your role allows democracy to have a
voice.
Will anyone stand up to say that the people of Quebec who
elected members of the Bloc Quebecois should not have a voice in
this House? Is this what it has come to in this country: to think
that the people of Quebec who voted for the Bloc do not have a
say in the matters being debated? That is incredible. We must
make them see reason.
We must also make them see reason about using the flag and the
national anthem to disrupt oral question period. They would have
used any pretence. However they would have expressed their
disapproval, you would have called them to order.
1625
If Bloc Quebecois members prevented Reformers from asking
questions or the government from replying by making a lot of
noise, by using the Quebec or the Canadian flag, or by doing
anything else, Reformers and Liberals would be the first ones to
say it is not right.
In this case, some members inopportunely and outrageously used
their own flag—which they claim to revere and to have the
utmost respect for—as a means to stop oral question period. This
is no minor incident.
You must make a ruling.
To be sure, no one questions your respect for the flag. You have
one on either side of the Chair. This is a precedent, but it is
not what is at issue here. What you must rule on is whether or
not members of this House can stop oral question period at any
time by using the Canadian flag or the national anthem, and
whether or not they should be allowed to do so.
The decision that will be made—and I say this for the benefit
of members, because the Speaker is, in a way, facing a
dilemma—will not concern the flag, but the fact that oral
question period was disrupted, in violation of the Standing
Orders and, worse still, by using a flag that some feel should be
revered. But this is not the issue.
Members of this House must not make the Speaker feel that,
should he rule in favour of the separatists and against the flag,
he would have to resign or be replaced. This is unacceptable. It
is not the flag versus the separatists. When will they understand
this? It is not the flag versus the separatists, it is respect
versus contempt for the rules.
Reformers say Canada is a democracy that enjoys freedom of
speech. In what kind of country can parliamentarians, in the name
of freedom of speech, rise and wave the flag, or start singing O
Canada, at any time, during oral question period, during debates,
to interrupt proceedings and reconsider all parliamentary
activities under the pretence of using the Canadian flag.
I sat to the members of this House that they should be very
careful, because if a decision were made, with respect for the
flag as a pretext, that the business of the House could be
disrupted anytime, they might have some surprises the day Quebec
decided to disrupt the business of this House. They would be very
happy and would also need the rules of the House to be respected.
We have always done so and we need them to respect those rules.
This is not democracy.
How can the Reform Party invoke respect for democracy? It is not
democracy to be able to interrupt question period whenever one
feels like it, to play around with the flag. Is this democracy,
Canadian style? It is not freedom of speech to be able to stand
up in this House for any reason with flags and have fun while
singing O Canada. Is this the freedom of speech of this country?
Come on, this is not the way it works.
I plead with my colleagues. The fact is we do not have the right
to do so, as parliamentarians, whatever our political opinions. I
repeat that you are not here to protect political opinions, but
to protect the right to speak of all parliamentarians, Mr.
Speaker. You cannot be asked to enter into a partisan debate.
Members should understand that. We understood that a long time
ago in Quebec.
Perhaps this should be understood in some areas of Canada. This
is not your problem. We have no right to ask you that. We ask you
to protect our right to speak and to protect the choice of
Quebeckers and of people from Manitoba, Saskatchewan and British
Columbia. Your duty is to ensure that, within the rules, these
people can speak and express their opinions.
1630
We have no right to threaten the Speaker when he is making a
decision as to whether we can disrupt question period or not.
Come on. It is common sense that no member in this House, with or
without a flag, has the right to prevent question period from
being held; no member ever had that right. The exercise of
democracy means that the opposition can question the government.
When Reform members, the official opposition, plead for this,
have they not understood anything about their role? They should
be the ones to want to protect oral question period. They are at
the centre of oral question period. Have they not yet understood
that?
Mr. Yvan Loubier: No, they do not understand anything.
Mr. Michel Gauthier: This is not the way Parliament works.
In conclusion, I will only say how sad it is to see that those
who claim they want to save Canada can think of nothing better
than waving—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Michel Gauthier: They had better listen, they might
understand better what Quebec is all about.
Those who think they can save the country by waving pictures and
flags, singing the national anthem, and making such a racket in
the House of Commons that they disrupt the debates, those who
think this is the way to save Canada, are a thousand miles away
from the understanding needed to nurture a constructive dialogue
which might lead them to where they want to go.
This is not the way to go forward. This is not the way to make
progress, and they should know that. Everybody in Quebec thinks
the flag war started in this Parliament by the people opposite
and now waged by the official opposition is ridiculous.
Everybody thinks it is absolutely unconscionable that in Canada
the only way to counter sovereignists' arguments is to wave the
flag and sing O Canada at inopportune moments. But this is the
sad truth.
How weak they are those Canadians who, instead of arguing, find
nothing better to do than waving colours and symbols! Are all
the champions of the country cheerleaders?
Mr. Yvan Loubier: Could be.
Mr. Michel Gauthier: In conclusion, I will say that we support
the motion. We want these issues out in the open. I believe every
member mentioned in the article should withdraw his comments and
realize that this has gone way too far.
This is going beyond the struggle between pseudo-federalists and
sovereignists.
This is going much further than it should. This is turning into
infighting among federalists, who are self-destructing, because
they do not even respect the bare minimum, namely Parliament, the
Parliament of Canada, the very Parliament we separatists have
always respected and will keep on respecting, whether they like
it or not.
[English]
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, NDP): Mr. Speaker, this is not
a great day for Parliament. Perhaps we are being put to the
test. There are a number of issues that are being mentioned, some
of them, I think, indirectly, but there are only two issues that
we are being asked to debate at this particular point.
We are not being asked to debate the appropriateness of the
so-called flag issue. That is still awaiting your decision, Mr.
Speaker, although some of my friends think this might be the
point and place for that debate.
I think it is fair to say that people got caught up in an
emotional demonstration in the House of Commons, motivated for
the very best of reasons. Others felt it was inappropriate. But
that is not what we are talking about here.
I think all of us also appreciate the fact that our constituents
watch this House operate on their television sets and by and
large are not impressed often with what they see. Today is a
good example of that.
Today we are supposed to be debating the budget, Mr. Speaker. We
are not debating the budget.
We are debating some alleged comments that some people made about
the procedure before the House.
1635
This is not necessarily a question about freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech does not mean you have the right to say
anything you want about anybody or anything. It is within
certain accepted rules. How we behave in here in also based on a
long established set of traditions and rules. We make a point of
memorizing those rules. As members of Parliament we have books
presented so that we know what the rules of order are. We know
what is expected of us in the House. What is it?
You are being asked, Mr. Speaker, to decide whether or not a few
days ago the proper procedures were followed. We are awaiting
that decision. That is not what is before us at the moment.
Brought to us by the House leader for the Progressive
Conservatives was the alleged comments made by a number of
members from various political parties that may bring into
question your integrity when bringing down a decision about the
appropriateness of behaviour in this House. That is the question
before us.
I listened with interest to the spokesperson for the Liberal
Party who said now they have no choice. You have ruled that this
is a prima facie case of privilege that now must go on to the
appropriate committee—the procedure and House affairs
committee—where it will be dealt with appropriately. The
so-called alleged comments will be addressed. That is where it
will be dealt with.
Surely if we are going to do the right thing for this
Parliament, we do not challenge your rule now. We do the right
thing and vote to send this to the appropriate committee which is
a standing committee of this House represented by all political
parties to finalize and deal with this unfortunate issue.
I would urge my colleagues, let us make this a unanimous vote.
You have asked us to support your decision. That is what this
vote is all about. For goodness sake, colleagues, let us not
separate at this point on this critical issue. Let us send it
off to committee where it will be dealt with appropriately in a
dispassionate way where everyone will have the chance to have
their say. This will then be brought to a satisfactory
conclusion.
I am urging, not only on behalf of my party, that we all support
this motion unanimously.
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr. Speaker,
I rise in support of the motion by the member for
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough. Again, as the last speaker
said, this has nothing to do with flag waving or singing songs;
it has everything to do with an attempt to influence your
decision and intimidate, as far as I am concerned.
If you consider that members from the government party and the
official opposition both took a position that said if you did not
as Speaker make a decision that they wanted that they would make
every effort they could to remove you as Speaker, I think that
has to be intimidation and a deliberate attempt to influence your
decision. If you consider the timing, this is what is critical
here. Had they made these comments after your decision, that
would be one thing, that they should question your decision, but
to do it just before your making a decision is a deliberate
attempt to try to influence your decision.
In the newspaper article in question none of the members talked
about their position. They did not try to support their
position. All they did was try to intimidate the Speaker by the
threats, as it says here in the newspaper article: “we'll demand
Parent's removal as Speaker if he rules in favour”. As another
member said: “There will be grave consequences if he doesn't
rule in favour”. Two other members warned “that Parent will
face demands for his resignation if he does not rule it the way
we want him to rule”.
In my view, there is no question about this being a deliberate
attempt to influence your decision. As the previous speaker
said, I urge all members to make this a unanimous decision to
have this go to committee and have it resolved.
The Speaker: It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38
to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at
the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for
Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, Banks; the hon. member for
Saanich—Gulf Islands, Fisheries; the hon. member for
Sarnia—Lambton, Highway System.
1640
Mr. Derek Lee (Scarborough—Rouge River, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, in this debate I want to address an aspect of the
procedure that we are dealing with here. Some members have
referred to this as being a matter where we should be voting in
favour of the motion to support the ruling of the Speaker.
I bring to members' attention my understanding of the rules
here, that we are not voting to support or not support the
Speaker. What we are doing is voting on a motion moved by our
colleague, and that motion is on the floor because the Speaker
has ruled that there is a prima facie breach of that privilege of
the House.
This does not mean that there has been with certainty—agreed to
by all members—a breach of those privileges.
The ruling of the Speaker allows this motion to come to the
floor and to be debated on and adopted or not, as we see fit. So
the whole issue of whether or not there has been a breach of
privilege still remains in the hands of members and the Speaker
did not, and I say this respectfully, wish to become one of the
voters or movers of the motion.
Whether we vote for or against in this particular instance, we
are not voting for or against the Speaker. We are already here
in the House with the Speaker who has our support. That is not
at issue.
All of the issues surrounding whether or not there has been a
breach of the privileges of the House will be taken up by a
committee of this House which we set up for that purpose and that
committee will report back to the House with the report. At that
point in time every member of this House will have an
opportunity, dependent on the rules of the House. to debate the
report and the House may or may not adopt the report.
That report may make recommendations as to how we should deal
with this issue if all the facts are shown to be correct, how we
should deal with it among ourselves as members of Parliament
given the issues involved. It involves a number of our
colleagues.
I wanted to make that point in the hope that the debate this
afternoon would not get too much into the flag issue and too much
into support or non-support of the Speaker—we always support the
Speaker—but whether or not the matter should be taken up by all
members through the committee we have designated for that
purpose.
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
have just a few points on this debate.
I agree with others who have said that it is an unfortunate
detour from the regularly scheduled business of the House that we
are even engaged in this debate. We are because the House leader
of the fifth party decided he wanted to bring it. That is
unfortunate in and of itself. Besides that, it is interesting to
me and the rotation here has allowed me a minute or two to calm
down, which is probably just as well.
I have difficulty engaging in debate someone who I cannot exceed
in decibels, which would have been the case had I followed the
House leader of the Bloc Quebecois who seems intent that he
believes in that old adage that when your argument is a little
weak, yell louder and perhaps someone will believe you. That is
unfortunate.
We should engage in the debate and the merits of this motion
before the House. I would argue with people who would say we
must be unanimous, with those in the House who say it is not
appropriate that we would even dispute the motion before the
House, to debate it, the pros and cons. Would it be because we
are a flock of sheep?
I say not, Mr. Speaker. I say that you have brought this to the
House for the House to make the decision and that is why you have
brought it to this place, so that all of us could bring our
collective wisdom on this decision to see whether it will be
referred to the procedure and House affairs committee or whether
it will not.
If, Mr. Speaker, the standing orders gave you the power to just
by fiat declare it to be so, that is what the standing orders
would say, but they do not say that.
You have come to the House and have asked for a decision and for
people wherever in this House to say that now we should not
debate it, now we should give it unanimous consent or we somehow
are flying in the face of our Speaker, that is nonsense.
We support the Speaker in his decisions but we also support the
decision of the House of Commons as a collectivity. It is our
right to speak on this motion and others and vote as we see fit,
not to be coerced by people who somehow think it is wrong to
speak our minds, and to vote the will of our constituents or our
own minds in this case.
1645
Specifically I want to say a couple of things on this matter.
The silly season has struck early with this motion by the House
leader of the Progressive Conservatives.
I think back to the last parliament when we dealt with a case of
contempt of Parliament or privilege. I think it was contempt. It
was the case of Mr. Jacob which was brought forward as a contempt
of Parliament because he had urged members of the armed forces to
consider joining the Quebec army the moment after the referendum.
That was a very serious issue that pro or con needed to be
examined. For goodness' sake, the defence critic of the official
opposition at that time urged people to leave the Canadian Armed
Forces the moment after a referendum and join the Quebec army,
which does not even exist. It was quite a statement and it was
referred to committee.
What happened in committee? That is why I am worried about this
motion. It went to committee and what happened was that the
majority in that committee took control of the agenda, took
control of the committee, and did not listen to the debate. What
they did was ramrod through a decision, in that case saying that
Mr. Jacob was not in contempt according to the majority,
supported by the official opposition at that time. In fact many
speakers thought they should actually condemn the Reform Party
for even bringing up the issue.
Imagine being concerned when someone says that someone should
desert the Canadian army and join the non-existent Quebec army
and we are the ones who are chastised. It is ridiculous. It is
just silly, sick and perverse that people who bring up things as
a bona fide contentious point of privilege and contempt of
parliament instead are chastised in the public House of Commons
for even bringing up the case. It is ridiculous in the extreme.
That is what will happen to this motion too if it gets sent to
committee. The silly season sets in. That is what happens when
they do this sort of thing. The House leader of the fifth party
should know that. It goes off to committee and there it sits and
waits for days and weeks and months while it festers away instead
of being dealt with it as it should have been dealt with quickly
and put aside.
I will not vote in favour of the motion as it stands because
this thing should have never gone the route it has gone today. It
is unfortunate Progressive Conservatives have chosen to tie up
the House in this way. It is unfortunate that we will have to
deal with it. We will have to push it through to a vote. Then
perhaps it will be sent to committee where it will languish away,
festering and burbling away in the back rooms of this place
instead of being dealt with quickly and succinctly as it should
have been all along. Therefore I move:
In that way we can say that if people believe this is harsh on
the Speaker or harsh on the House, let them say so. This should
not be referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House
Affairs. This should be treated as any newspaper article should
be.
I can envision the PC Party bringing its Frank magazines
in here next week and saying “Oh, my goodness, look, another
article that somehow brings things into disrepute. We had best
haul everybody out in front of everybody again and shut down the
procedure of the House”.
It is ridiculous. It should not be happening. We should be on
to the business of the budget. That is why this motion in effect
should say that hon. members can say what they want about the
newspaper article, but we are not going to waste our time here
and we are not going to waste our time in committee on a motion
that should have never been brought to the House to begin with.
1650
The Speaker: I will take the amendment under advisement.
We will have a look at it. I will continue with the debate.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères, BQ): Mr. Speaker, since you
are about to make a ruling, I would like to tell you that if this
amendment completely alters, as I think it does, the nature of
the motion moved by the House leader of the Progressive
Conservative Party, it should obviously be ruled out of order.
I have been listening with a mixture of amusement and sadness
the arguments of the official opposition chief whip to the effect
that a newspaper report should not be given so much significance.
He said we should not give too much importance to comments
reported in the media. Maybe the official opposition chief whip
has just realized now that he is a public figure, that his
comments can indeed be reported in the media, and that his
comments as a member of this House are of some import.
He said he finds it distressing that this issue has been raised
in the House. On the basis of remarks made outside the House
concerning a deputy speaker, our former colleague for Rosemont
was urged to withdraw his statement, despite the fact it had not
been made in the House.
In my view, there are precedents, whether the official
opposition chief whip likes it or not. Just two weeks ago, he
condescendingly likened the members of the Bloc Quebecois to deer
dazed by oncoming headlights. Listening to him a moment ago, he
made me think of a child who has just broken a window pane, and
closes his eyes pretending it did not happen.
What has happened is quite serious. Rather that letting the
issue rest, as you asked, and wait for your ruling, a few members
have decided deliberately to add fuel to the fire and inflame the
situation, so that the debate has not been made more civilized,
but uglier.
I hear the chief whip of the official opposition saying “My, it
is so sad we have to talk about this, that we have to refer the
matter to the Standing Committee on Standing Committee on
Procedure and House Affairs, that we have to drag members'
reputations through the mud for months on end”.
The chief whip of the official opposition was far less scrupulous
when what was involved was dragging the reputation of the former
member for Charlesbourg through the mud, as he did outrageously a
while ago by totally misrepresenting the words of that hon.
member. The former member for Charlesbourg, I would remind you,
had not invited the members of the Canadian Armed Forces to join
the armed forces of an independent Quebec, but had merely raised
that possibility. This matter was thoroughly examined by the
Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, and it was
decided at that time that there was no contempt of Parliament,
Probably the chief whip for the official opposition, being
disappointed and somewhat frustrated with that decision, is
referring to it today in order to indicate just how unfortunate
and regrettable it would be if his colleagues were to have to
appear before the Standing Committee on Procedure and House
Affairs to answer for something they said which was reported
publicly in the media.
Mr. Speaker, I speak for my colleagues in stating that we are
going to support this motion because it makes sense. We are
going to support this motion because it is normal, if MPs
challenge the authority of the Chair when it is required to make
a ruling and attempt to influence that ruling with intimidation
and threats, that they must face up to what they have said.
We are therefore going to support this motion, because it is
obvious that we should, and also because, as some of our
colleagues have pointed out, you have asked us to do so.
1655
[English]
The Speaker: I have looked at the amendment to the
motion. I refer hon. members to Beauchesne's sixth edition,
citation 568, which states:
It is an imperative rule that every amendment must be relevant
to the question on which the amendment is proposed. Every
amendment proposed to be made, either to a question or to a
proposed amendment, should be so framed that, if agreed to by the
House, the question or amendment as amended would be intelligible
and consistent with itself.
On that basis I find the amendment out of order.
Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I would not for one instance disagree with any ruling
that you make with respect to this issue being a prima facie case
of breach of privilege. I realize that you have carefully
considered the issue and you have consulted with the experts you
have around you.
My concern is with the motion itself. I have to say to my
House leader and to my colleagues on all sides of the House
that I believe the motion is of sufficient importance that we
should treat it as an issue of conscience and as a free vote.
It is for this reason. If my colleagues speak out in criticism
of you, Mr. Speaker, which is what this is all about, and they
are then as a consequence brought before a committee of the House
and required to defend what they have said, I feel that their
punishment has been meted out, that they have been called to
account, that there have been sanctions.
As I spoke earlier, I believe in our parliamentary system and
our democracy that every MP should have a right to criticize
anyone as long as the criticism falls into the realm of fair
comment. In this instance the criticisms fell into the realm of
fair comment. I am sure, Mr. Speaker, you would have found ample
precedents on other occasions where MPs have suggested because of
a Speaker's ruling that the Speaker's election may be in jeopardy
at some future time.
I am concerned that this issue strikes at the very heart of the
freedom of MPs to speak out both within and without the Chamber.
If they do not feel free to speak out, if they hesitate to speak
out because of some perceived sanction that may be imposed upon
them at a later time by their colleagues in committee, I do not
think we will get the debates, either in the Chamber or in
public, that we need in order to proceed to consider the issues
carefully in a democratic fashion.
I hesitate to say this because I always want to support my side
in the House. I considered very carefully the comments of the
government House leader. However, on an issue as close to the
heart as the freedom of every one of us in the House to speak
out, both within and without the House, I have to say I cannot
support the motion.
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
I would like to make a few points. I want to respond to the NDP
member for Kamloops who suggested that you really want this to go
to committee. I believe that is not accurate at all. Your
reason is that we are debating it before the House because you
want the House to decide without question.
I want to respond to the member who brought the motion forward,
the Progressive Conservative member who has drawn an analogy to a
civil case. I do not see this analogy and I will explain why.
It is true before the courts, or the general public for that
matter, that litigants are not permitted to lobby the judge, the
arbitrator or a juror when making a decision.
I submit that is not the issue here at all. When the
original motion was brought forward, or the point of order, I was
also standing along with the member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca.
As is your role, Mr. Speaker, you recognized him. I respected
that and I sat down. I did not have a chance to voice my
concerns, but I had twice gone looking for you and was
unsuccessful in finding you. This was an important enough issue
for me that I wanted to talk to you and say that I at least have to
voice my concerns to you on this point of order.
I was absolutely going to try to influence your vote, without
question. I believe that is perfectly appropriate in these
circumstances.
1700
I also believe it is perfectly appropriate if the public
telephones you or faxes you or lobbies you to put their comments
on the record.
This is an issue about your integrity. I believe that is why you
are sitting in the chair. That is why we elected you. We are
confident that you will make a decision which we will respect.
I had every intention of lobbying you, Mr. Speaker, because I
did not have an opportunity to speak on the original motion and I
felt it was very important that I do so. I disagree with the
analogy which was made by the member of the Progressive
Conservative Party that if this were a civil court case it would
be improper to lobby you outside the House concerning your
decision.
I am sure you have received faxes from the public, Mr. Speaker,
on a matter of this importance. I am sure you have received
phone calls from the general public. I would respectfully submit
that the general public is not in contempt. They have every
right to send information to you.
It is a matter of voicing our opinions. It is very important to
me that you hear my concerns. I will not do that now. I want
to, but I have not been able to do it. I will respect your
decision, but again I think I have the right to let you know how
I feel.
Some members have chosen to do that through the newspaper. We
deal with it all the time. Every single day we see things in the
newspaper about members of the House, their staff and other
government officials. We have to filter through them to know
what they mean.
Mr. Speaker, I have the highest respect for your office and for
that matter for yourself. I will put that on the record.
However, had I walked out of here and somebody had stuck a camera
in my face and had asked me for my comments, I would have stated
them quite openly, quite honestly and quite appropriately I may
add with no disregard for your office whatsoever.
Again I will say that I respect your decision to let the House
decide the issue. The other point of order is a separate issue
entirely. We must respect your decision. We must respect your
office. You are sitting in that chair because we put you there
and because we believe in your integrity. Otherwise you would
not be there. I am convinced of that.
I will not support the motion. Although I may not have chosen
to lobby this way, other members have. They feel quite strongly
about the issue and want to have their comments on the record.
You are sitting there waiting to make a decision, which you can
do with total impartiality.
Mr. Dennis J. Mills (Broadview—Greenwood, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I feel privileged to have the opportunity to participate
in this debate. I did not realize until I arrived here this
afternoon that this tempest in a teapot had taken on a new
proportion.
I want to begin by going back to my first year in this city,
1980. I and my good friend, the late Norman Wood who was a
senior bureaucrat for many years, were given the job by the then
prime minister of Canada to do an analysis of the Government of
Canada presence right across the country. The purpose of doing
this study about the presence of the Government of Canada at that
time was to try to figure out why there was such a deep-seated
feeling of western alienation when the Government of Canada had
done all kinds of things especially in western Canada.
We travelled from coast to coast and placed special emphasis on
western Canada. My very dear friend Norman Wood and myself took
slides. We took thousands of pictures.
We discovered that there were literally thousands of Government
of Canada services right across the country but especially in
western Canada where the Government of Canada presence did not
exist.
There were agricultural buildings, there were youth services in
colleges and universities. The Government of Canada was
providing all of these services but with no Government of Canada
presence.
1705
Shortly thereafter we got the Canada word mark with the flag on
top. We put these signs and flags not just in western Canada but
right across the country. The whole purpose of that was to make
sure the Government of Canada presence was recognized. It was
not hidden in some back office. It was out there for the public
to realize that this Chamber actually did useful things in every
region of the country.
I say that because I do not want anybody in this Chamber to
think for a second that my commitment to the flag, my commitment
to the Government of Canada have diminished in any way, shape or
form since 1980.
With reference to this incident, last week the member for
Rimouski—Mitis came into our committee. I have had a very good
relationship with her over the last two terms. I asked her quite
openly what the big fuss was over the flags at the Olympic games
celebration.
The member responded in what I thought was quite a constructive
way. She put a bunch of pictures on the table which I wish we
could display to Canadians. She was not objecting to the
Canadian flag per se. When the initial comments were made she
was referring specifically to that avenue where representatives
of all countries were in the Olympic village and the Canadian
presence, which we celebrate, outnumbered the presence of any
other country by about 20:1. My colleague from Scarborough Centre
was there and he concurs with this.
There is a sense that the member asked whether it was
distasteful to have this many flags. Those remarks were blown
right out of proportion. I know some people will stand up and say
that I am in bed with the separatists. If members choose to take
that line of thinking, then that is their privilege in this
House. It is very important that we understand the origin of
this member's remark. I believe quite frankly that the member
was not spitting on the flag, she was not jumping on the flag.
She was merely making a comment about whether this was
artistically the right thing.
An hon. member: That is nonsense.
Mr. Dennis J. Mills: That is fine, the member can say it
is nonsense, but I have my privilege to stand in this House and
say what I think just as that member does and I happen to
disagree.
I am not in bed with the separatists. Anybody who has been in
this Chamber for the last 10 years knows that I find dealing with
the separatists to be a very tough situation. I also believe we
should understand. If a member makes a remark that suddenly
becomes coast to coast front cover headlines when it was a musing
thing, not a statement of hurt nor a statement to diminish Canada
but a comment, then it is important to take it in the whole
context.
In emotional moments in this Chamber, whether we sing O Canada,
show the flag five times or a hundred times when our athletes or
astronauts come home, it is the privilege in my own view although
I defer to your judgment, Mr. Speaker, of all of us to
emotionally show excitement and gratitude.
On that score, I separate again from the separatists.
1710
At the same time, Mr. Speaker, I want to say to you, and I am
totally loyal to your judgment in this, that it is very important
that a person not be condemned, hung out to dry, when it was a
simple musing comment. In no way, shape or form in my judgment
was she stomping on the flag.
[Translation]
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, this afternoon
we are talking about a serious matter.
This afternoon we are talking about something that concerns us
all, that concerns you personally as well, Mr. Speaker. We are
talking about respect for democracy in the House. We are talking
about your ability to lead the House to conclusions. And we are
talking about respect for this ability as it relates to the
institution of the Parliament of Canada.
A few moments ago, our Liberal Party colleague referred to
remarks made by the member for Rimouski—Mitis with respect to the
large number of Canadian flags she saw in Nagano.
The remarks made at the time were respectful of the institution
and the flag and all they evoke.
What we saw on Thursday, two weeks ago, and I was in the House,
profoundly shocked me. I feel that a country's flag is something
sacred. It is more than just a piece of fabric, more than just
colours. It is something that represents a people. I respect
the flag of Quebec, I respect the flag of Canada, and I respect
national flags.
National anthems also have a sacred character and, in my view,
may not be used whenever and however people wish. It would be
ill viewed, as I think everyone here would agree, if a student
were to stand up in the middle of a class and begin singing the
national anthem or waving flags in the name of freedom of
expression.
There is a time and a place for everything.
What happened here, two weeks ago, upset me precisely because we
used a flag, the Canadian flag, and a national anthem, O Canada,
at an inappropriate time.
During oral question period, the time allocated to hon. members
for putting their questions and to ministers for answering them
is quite limited, and you see to it, Mr. Speaker, that we keep
things rolling. The disruption that occurred during our
proceedings meant that some hon. members who could have asked
questions did not have time to do so, and that the ministers did
not have time to answer them. I know as you do, Mr. Speaker, that
the House cannot operate properly under such circumstances.
After the incident, Mr. Speaker, you said—I was there—that you
would take the matter under advisement and that you would get
back to the House. In the meantime, some hon. members have
questioned your eventual decision.
Mr. Speaker, once you have made the decision, anyone who
disagrees with it will be free to say so. But until you make a
decision, it is our duty to give you the time you need to ponder
the issue and make the necessary consultations, and to put our
trust in you.
1715
You have my confidence and I think you also have the confidence
of the vast majority of the members of this House. However, some
have allowed themselves, publicly and openly, not in private
conversations but in front of the media, to question the decision
that you will make. Worse still, they indicated that they would
withdraw their confidence in you should your ruling not be what
they think it should be.
This is totally unacceptable. Such behaviour jeopardizes the
democratic institutions that are Parliament and the House of
Commons.
If I speak freely here this afternoon, it is because I know that
hon. members, whether or not they agree with my comments, will
listen and let me exercise the right to speak that is mine since
I was elected through a democratic process.
Hon. members also know that I do the same when you recognize
them, Mr. Speaker. They enjoy the same freedom of speech, because
they were also elected through a democratic process. I respect
your authority because we collectively decided that you, our
fellow member of Parliament, would ensure that the debates take
place in a climate of respect that is conducive, hopefully, to
the best possible outcome, and, more importantly, that is
consistent with democracy.
I listened to some members, and sometimes I just cannot believe
my ears.
Whatever happened to respect for democracy among those of our
colleagues who are trying to influence your decision, to kill
debate, and to put a lid on the issues, instead of allowing a
debate that would lead to a solution?
I do not know what your decision will be. I will anxiously wait
for it, like many of us here. However, I do know that if your
decision is made within the rules of our parliamentary system, it
will get the support of a majority of members of this House, as
are all decisions made in this fashion. We are bound by a
democratic pact and this is why I will accept your decision,
whatever it is.
If I had the authority to do so, I would apologize to you on
behalf of the members of other parties who more or less
threatened you. I do not have this authority, but it makes me
very sad to see certain members show such disrespect for you.
Since I feel this is a fundamental issue, I would like to
propose an amendment to the motion before us.
I move:
That the motion be amended by adding,
between the words “referred” and “to the Standing
Committee”, the word:
1720
The Speaker: The motion, as worded, is in order.
[English]
Mr. Bob Kilger (Stormont—Dundas, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
am pleased to join in this debate today. I move:
The Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the
motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
An hon. member: On division.
(Motion agreed to)
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[Translation]
ORDER IN COUNCIL APPOINTMENTS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to table in both official languages a number of order in
council appointments which were recently made by the government.
Pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 110(1), these are
deemed referred to the appropriate standing committees, a list
of which is attached.
* * *
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour
to table, in both official languages, the government's response
to 23 petitions.
* * *
1725
[English]
SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES (B)
A message from His Excellency the Governor General transmitting
supplementary estimates (B) for the financial year ending March
31, 1998 was presented by the President of the Treasury Board and
read by the Speaker to the House.
* * *
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Dick Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley, Ref.)
moved for leave to introduce Bill C-365, an act to amend the
Criminal Code (desecration of the flag).
He said: Mr. Speaker, all over this country our national flag
flies proudly from government buildings, from residences, from
places of business, from public gathering places. This is a flag
that our country has a right to be proud of. People have indeed
given their lives for our national flag.
This motion would seek to make it a criminal offence for any
person or persons who would consider desecrating in any way the
national flag of Canada. I am proud to introduce this private
member's motion.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
INCOME TAX ACT
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-366, an act to amend the Income Tax Act
(deduction of mechanics' tool expenses).
1730
He said: Mr. Speaker, this private member's bill would allow
mechanics to deduct their tool expense, which is now denied,
provided that it is a requirement of their employment to purchase
the tools.
The deduction would encompass maintenance, rental, insurance
costs and the full cost of tools under $200 and the capital cost
allowance above $200. That is consistent with what artists,
musicians, chain saw operators and other individuals now do when
claiming the cost of their tools as an income tax deduction.
I am very pleased to present this bill on behalf of mechanics.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY ACT
Mr. Dan McTeague (Pickering—Ajax—Uxbridge, Lib.) moved
for leave to introduce Bill C-367, an act to amend the Motor
Vehicle Safety Act.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I wish to flag your attention to the
problem which has persisted for some time in the minds of the
public about the question of public safety with respect to the
automotive industry.
The purpose of this bill is to amend the Motor Vehicle Safety
Act to make manufacturers notify the public in a prescribed
manner when they become aware of a design, construction or
functional defect in vehicles which they either manufacture or
import for sale.
The bill would also give the Minister of Transport the power to
order an immediate recall of defective vehicles which have caused
or are likely to cause injury or death and prevent the sale of
these vehicles until the defect is corrected.
I thank the hon. member for Laval West for her support.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
[Translation]
SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES (B)
REFERENCE TO STANDING COMMITTEES
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and Minister
responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to
Standing Order 81(5) and 81(6), I would like to table a motion to
refer the estimates to the standing committees of the House.
Therefore, I move:
That the Supplementary
Estimates (B) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1998,
laid upon the Table on March 9, 1998, be referred to the
several Standing Committees of the House, as follows:
As there is a lengthy list attached to the motion, if it is
agreeable to the House, I would ask that the list be printed in
Hansard as if it had been read.
The Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
[Editor's note: The above list is as follows:]
Indian Affairs and Northern Development, Votes 1b, 5b,
6b, 15b, L20b, 35b and 40b
Canadian Heritage, Votes 1b, 5b, 10b, L21b, 25b, 45b, 60b,
65b, 70b, 85b, 95b, 105b, 110b, 115b, 130b and 145b
Foreign Affairs, Votes 1b, 5b, 10b, 11b, 20b, 25b and 26b
To the Standing Committee on Human Resources
Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities
Industry, Votes 1b, 5b, 20b, 30b, 35b, 50b, 60b, 65b, 80b,
85b, 90b and 120b
Justice, Votes 1b, 10b, 15b, 20b, 25b and 35b
Solicitor General, Votes 1b, 10b, 15b and 35b
Canadian Heritage, Votes 135b and 136b
Governor General, Vote 1b
Natural Resources, Votes 1b, 20b, 25b and 35b
Privy Council, Votes 1b and 10b
Public Works and Government Services, Votes 1b, 5b, 15b,
16b, 17b and 18b
Treasury Board, Vote 1b
(Motion agreed to)
* * *
[English]
PETITIONS
TAXATION
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, NDP): Mr. Speaker, it is my
honour to present a petition, pursuant to Standing Order 36.
Because of the necessity of dealing with the budget debate I will
not read the petition. I will simply say that the petitioners
are calling for tax reform of a comprehensive nature.
MULTILATERAL AGREEMENT ON INVESTMENT
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I have a
second petition which I wish to present. A large number of
petitioners from throughout British Columbia are calling upon the
government not to sign the multilateral agreement on investment,
period.
PENSIONS
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I have a
third petition which I wish to present. The petitioners are
concerned about the government's plans to change the pension
system and the retirement income system of Canada. They call
upon the government, at least this time, to ensure there is
adequate public debate on the issue before any decisions are
taken.
1735
HEALTH
Mr. Philip Mayfield (Cariboo—Chilcotin, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I am honoured to rise today in the House of Commons to
present a petition signed by more than 100 constituents from the
Quesnel, Wells and Williams Lake Districts of my riding
Cariboo—Chilcotin.
My constituents are concerned that freedom of choice in health
care is becoming increasingly curtailed and further threatened by
legislation and statutory regulations of the Government of
Canada.
My constituents request that Canada's Food and Drug Act be
revised to allow for freedom of choice in health care.
PUBLIC SAFETY
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
am pleased to present a petition signed by a number of Canadians,
including from my riding of Mississauga South.
The petitioners would like to draw to the attention of the House
that police officers and firefighters are required to place their
lives at risk on a daily basis as they discharge their duties.
When one of them is killed in the line of duty, their employment
benefits do not often provide sufficient compensation to their
families to deal with their needs. The public mourns that loss
when a police officer or a firefighter is killed in the line of
duty and they wish to support in a tangible way the surviving
families in their time of need.
The petitioners therefore ask Parliament to establish a public
safety officers' compensation fund for the benefit of families of
public safety officers who are killed in the line of duty.
YOUNG OFFENDERS
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
I am honoured to present a petition on behalf of 564 constituents
of Saanich—Gulf Islands and the surrounding area.
The petitioners call upon Parliament to enact legislation to
repeal the Young Offenders Act and replace it with an act that
will provide penalties for violent crimes committed by young
people that will act as a deterrent to such actions and provide
safety and security to the general public as well.
We have had a very large increase in crime in our area. The
public is gravely concerned and they are of the belief that what
is in place is clearly not working. They are asking Parliament
to act.
AGE OF CONSENT
Mr. Chuck Cadman (Surrey North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to present this petition of some 2,000 names requesting
Parliament to raise the age of consent for sexual activity
between a young person and an adult from 14 years to 16 years.
These petitioners are concerned, as are all Canadians, about the
increasing sexual exploitation of our young people. They look to
us and this place to do something about it.
CANADIAN RADIO AND TELEVISION COMMISSION
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
I rise to present a petition signed by some 47 residents of
Calgary who expressed their concern about the July 22, 1997
decision by the Canadian Radio and Television Commission to
license the Playboy channel at the same time that it denied a
license to four religious broadcasters, including the
International Catholic Broadcast.
These petitioners pray that Parliament will review the mandate
of the CRTC and direct the commission to administer a new policy
which will permit and encourage the licensing of religious
broadcasters to end this mark on freedom of expression in Canada.
* * *
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
following questions will be answered today: Nos. 26, 40, 48, 49,
59 and 69.
.[Text]
Mr. Rick Borotsik:
With regard to the CN Rail line to Churchill, Manitoba, (a) what
were the specific contract details concerning the $34 million
that was spent on upgrading; and (b) why was $6 million given to
CN Rail in order to ensure the sale of the line?
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): (a) On August 8,
1997, the Hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, on behalf of the
Minister of Transport, announced that the Government of Canada
would be transferring the port of Churchill to the Hudson Bay
Port Corporation in accordance with Canada's national marine
policy. In support of that transfer, Transport Canada is
providing a total of $14.45 million under its port divestiture
fund for health and safety upgrades to the port facility. These
upgrades include improved dust control, a new hopper car unloader
and concrete restoration measures.
Additional funding of $19.6 million is being provided for
capacity enhancements at the port including a new tug and
trackmobile, wharf face repairs and dredging of the port. This
funding consists of $9 million from western economic
diversification, $4.6 million under the western grain
transportation adjustment fund and $6 million from the province
of Manitoba. This funding will be provided to Hudson Bay Port
Corporation under a contribution agreement with western economic
diversification with funds to be provided on a reimbursement
basis after eligible costs have been incurred.
Total federal support of $28.05 million along with provincial
funding of $6 million are key elements in ensuring that the port
of Churchill will be internationally competitive and economically
viable and independent over the long term.
(b) In a separate transaction, CN rail has sold the bay line to
Churchill to Hudson Bay Rail Company. Western economic
diversification will provide $16 million to CN in recognition of
its losses on the bay line and to allow it to proceed with the
sale rather than abandon the line and recover the salvage value.
The rail line transaction involves 1,300 km of track connecting
the communities of Flin Flon, Lynn Lake, Churchill and other
smaller centers. This rail link is critical to the economy of
northern Manitoba and under its new ownership it will provide the
opportunity for new growth and development in the area.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy:
With regard to the government's formulation of the projections
for income, expenses, account and account earnings, contribution
rates, yield and paygo rate for the latest Canada pension plan
proposal: (a) how many separate actuarial runs did the government
require to complete the proposal; (b) how many officials were
involved in the computations and how long did it take them to
arrive at the finished product; (c) how many private consultants
were involved; (d) what services did they perform at what cost;
(e) how long did the process take; and (f) how much did the
entire process cost?
Mr. Tony Valeri (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): (a) 2,251 projections were prepared by
the office of the chief actuary of the Canada Pension Plan since
the tabling of the 15th actuarial report in February 1995, for
the purpose of developing the federal-provincial agreement on the
CPP.
(b) Three full time officials and one half time official were
employed by the chief actuary in the Office of the Superintendent
of Financial Institutions.
(c) No private consultants were involved
in preparing projections.
(d) None, as private
consultants were not involved.
(e) The 2,251 projections were prepared after the February 1995
tabling of the 15th CPP actuarial report and continued to the
present.
(f) The Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions
received $1,375,000 in 1996-97 from the CPP account to provide
ongoing actuarial services for the CPP, including the preparation
of actuarial reports required by the CPP act and all other
actuarial services relating to the CPP. These funds covered all
salaries and other goods and services. The office received no
additional resources to prepare projections for the review.
Mr. Dick Harris:
With regard to the government's and Canada Deposit Insurance
Corporation's ongoing litigation involving, directly or
indirectly, the former board or directors of the Northland Bank,
what services did each of the following law firms perform and how
much have each of the following firms charged the Canadian
government or the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation from
September 1, 1985, to the present: (a) Ogilvie and Cole of
Manitoba; (b) Howard Mackie of Calgary; and (c) Fraser & Beatty
of Toronto?
Mr. Tony Valeri (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): The law firm of Ogilvie & Co. of Edmonton was
appointed as agent of the Attorney General of Canada to conduct
the litigation on behalf of the Government of Canada and the
Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation; to December 31, 1997 it has
been paid $6,154,819.56 for its services. Howard Mackie and
Fraser & Beatty have not performed any services on behalf of the
Government of Canada or the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation
in respect of this litigation. They act for the liquidator of the
bank appointed by the Court of Queen's Bench of Alberta in the
companion litigation brought by the liquidator against, among
others, certain former directors of the bank. Any response
regarding those firm's charges to the liquidator should be made by the
liquidator, but it can be said that the amounts recovered as a
result of the settlements achieved to date far exceed the total
fees charged by all three law firms added together.
Mr. Dick Harris:
With regard to the government's and Canada Deposit Insurance
Corporation's ongoing litigation involving directly or
indirectly, the former board or directors of the Northland Bank,
did any of the law firms retained on this case or the Department
of Justice prepare any opinions within the last 12 years as to:
(a) cost recovery; (b) time frame for completion; and (c) the
likelihood of a favorable outcome?
Mr. Tony Valeri (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): The opinions given have been in respect of
ongoing litigation and the subject of solicitor-client privilege.
Mr. Ken Epp:
With respect to the auditor general's report (Public Accounts,
1997) statement that the value of computers stolen is $2,228,122
and the value of computers destroyed or damaged is $40,282: a)
has the President of the Treasury Board enacted any measures to
ensure that departments are more accountable for their equipment
and b) if so, what are these measures?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and Minister
responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.):
The Treasury Board is responsible for establishing the required
policy framework within the Government of Canada with respect to
the management and security of computer systems and networks.
Departments are responsible for protecting sensitive information
and assets, such as computer and related systems, in accordance
with Treasury Board policies.
Under the government security policy, the Royal Canadian Mounted
Police, RCMP, is identified as a lead agency in physical and
information technology security. The RCMP has been providing
basic security advice to departments for many years which no
doubt has reduced the number and impact of the occurrences of the
theft of entire computer systems and components. In addition to
the ongoing advice and guidance to departments in the areas of
physical security and information technology security, the
following specific measures have been taken:
Departments are encouraged to consult with the Treasury Board
Secretariat, TBS, on matters of computer security and meetings are
held with departments following the theft of computers or
components. While TBS can work with departments to help
establish additional methods of securing government assets and
information, a theft should be reported to the RCMP in order for
an investigation to be conducted.
The Deputy Comptroller General Branch at TBS is responsible for
the policy of security for government assets. A document
entitled “Guide to the Review of Material Management” is posted
on the department's web site located at www.tbs-sct.gc.ca under
Contract, Material and Risk Management. The main objectives of
this policy are focused on the reduction of physical losses,
optimizing the utilization of resources and ensuring value for
money.
A guidance document entitled a “Guide to minimizing computer
theft” was issued in June 1997 and is available at the RCMP's
Internet site.
A RCMP investigator was seconded to the Ottawa-Carleton regional
computer component theft team.
Each federal government department has a departmental security
officer to deal with the RCMP. This individual is responsible
for security issues particularly with respect to personnel and
information technology.
Departmental security officers are members of an association
that allows them to consult and share information on security
issues. Each officer also reports to their respective deputy
minister to keep him or her updated on matters of security.
A number of physical security devices were tested in government
to lock down systems and prevent systems from being opened. For
instance, computers can be bolted down to desktops.
One hundred per cent security is unattainable in any setting,
nor would it be desirable because of prohibitive cost. We feel
that with departments implementing the advice provided, component
theft will be kept under control.
Mr. Reed Elley:
With respect to the Participaction program, what has the
government determined to be the total cost to the Canadian
taxpayer in each of the last five recorded fiscal years for money
spent by this organization on advertising and other promotional
activities related to its mandate?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): With respect to
the Participaction program, Health Canada has provided
Participaction with funds for advertising and other promotional
activities related to physical activity:
1993-94—$477,000
1994-95—$420,000
1995-96—$425,000
1996-97—$275,000
1997-98 (to date)—$275,000
[English]
Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Speaker, I ask that the remaining
questions be allowed to stand.
The Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
* * *
QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURN
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if
Question No. 41 could be made an order for return, this return
would be tabled immediately.
The Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
.[Text]
Mr. Mark Assad:
How much has the Canadian International Development Agency
(CIDA) spent during each of the last five years in each of the
following areas: (a) primary health care, (b) basic education,
(c) drinking water and (d) sanitary services?
Return tabled.
[English]
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, this is in relation to a question that still remains
outstanding. It is No. 12. I have requested several times that
we receive the answer and it is still in abeyance.
1740
Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Speaker, I apologize once again to
the member. As he says, he has asked on a number of occasions.
I will continue to press for a reply.
I should point out to you though, Mr. Speaker, that this is a
question that involves virtually every, if not every department
in the federal government. It is taking some time to reach them
all. I will continue to do my best to obtain the response.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
THE BUDGET
FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF MINISTER OF FINANCE
The House resumed consideration of the motion that this House
approves in general the budgetary policy of the government; and of
the amendment.
Mr. Alex Shepherd (Durham, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it gives
me great pleasure to enter this debate on the budget. In some
real ways, this is the culmination of how I ended up here.
Indeed, I spent many years wondering how it was possible that
Canada can continue to go so close to the abyss of financial
ruin. It was clear to me that we needed a new way to do
government.
That is why the week before last it was my great pleasure to
listen to the Minister of Finance bring in the first balanced
budget that this country has seen in over 30 years.
One thing that is very noticeable about this budget is that it
talks about education. One thing I have always believed, and it
is very important, is that a country educate its people.
We talk about Canada being a resource based country and, indeed,
we are but our best resources are the resources between our ears.
Finding better ways to use those resources is what is going to
make Canada a better country in the 21st century.
I would like to talk about productivity. Some people think this
is an economic concept. What it basically means is the ability
of people to use their surroundings, to use their resources in an
effective way to produce products.
We have been changing our economy so that we are moving away
from the resource based industries of the past and we are moving
towards a service sector orientation.
For that reason, it is very difficult sometimes to measure
productivity. Why am I talking about productivity? The problem
of Canada and Canada's economy is that we have been lagging many
of our competitors in the area of competition.
In the area of productivity, Canada lags our chief competitor,
the United States, by something like 30%. Why is that? What is
it going to mean for our economy? It means that our competitors
are able to use technological advances quicker, more rapidly in
their production capabilities as well as in their service sector
than are Canadians.
Some people suggested that the decline in the value of the
Canadian dollar is directly related to our decline in
productivity.
The Conference Board of Canada has made a tremendous number of
reports basically stating that while Canada has one of the
highest per capita spending in the western world on education, we
are still very much scorned in the mid-term in the areas of
science and math.
Indeed, our illiteracy rate in Canada is mid-term. It is really
quite a disgrace for a modern nation like ours to have illiteracy
rates as high as we do. That is why I was very proud to be part
of a government that brought in an accentuation that, while we
have been able to manage our debt and deficit so that we have a
balanced budget, we have been able to accentuate those things
that are going to empower ourselves to be a better and more
competitive nation in the future.
In those things, exclude that we look at the education area. I
was very happy to see a restoration of funding for NSERC and the
Medical Research Council. These are ways that governments can
support our institutions and create more opportunities for
technological advancements in our universities and colleges.
I should mention I was very proud when the Minister of Finance
mentioned a college in my riding, Durham College. Indeed at the
same time, the president for Durham College was in the gallery
listening to that.
The next morning, I gave a post-budget breakfast in my riding
for basically all the business community.
I can tell this House that those people were all very happy and
supportive of the budget we presented.
1745
I can remember back in 1994 it not being that way, that there
were very ugly meetings sometimes when people wanted us to move
fast on this or that envelope. It has been very much that the
Canadian people have come to the realization that this government
brings sound, good management.
Some of the areas that this budget talked about were registered
education savings plan. My background has been one of an
investment adviser and accountant. When I used to practise, these
registered educational savings plan we basically shunned. The
reason was that they were very much a gamble on behalf of parents
who wanted to save money for the support of their children going
for post-secondary education, because the mean factor was that if
one's kid did not go one lost the money. The benefits were great
because 50% of the people did not actually go so the people who
stayed in the plan of course got good rewards.
Most people are not into gambling, they are into saving for some
positive returns. What has happened with these plans is that we
have now made them so that if a child does not go on for
post-secondary education, parents can roll them back into their
registered retirement savings plan.
The government has gone one step further by providing a 20%
grant. The federal government is going to put that money directly
in that plan as well. There is a partnership arrangement going on
between parents, their children and the federal government. I
think that is a very healthy attitude. The only comment I heard
from people I talked to was why did we wait so long.
It is unfortunate that the baby boomers—me with three children
in post-secondary education—are not going to be able to get the
benefit of that, but the reality is that it allows people to put
money aside. It is a great trepidation for a lot of parents to
have young children who are going to go to university which will
possibly cost as much as $10,000 a year to place them there. This
gives them a way in which to see that their children do get
adequate education.
Another area that I found very interesting was the ability of
people to withdraw up to $10,000 in any one year and a cumulative
of $20,000 from their registered retirement savings plans for
their own education.
It is obvious that we are living in a society of continuous
learning. We have to try to find ways to encourage people to go
back and learn in new and better productive facilities in which
to upgrade their skills. These all come back to my original
theory of increasing Canada's productivity and making us a very
competitive nation as we go out to fight it out with our
neighbours and other countries in the world for our share of
economic development.
I once suggested that we should use the employment insurance
this way. In other words, we should provide certain funding
through the employment insurance system to allow people the
discretion to go out and re-educate themselves. This is another
way to get at the same thing.
I was listening to the radio the other day and I heard a
financial planner criticizing this plan. His criticism was that
the government was scheming to reduce people's RRSP savings so it
could get them out and tax them. In other words, if people took
out those moneys that were in their plans and went back to
school, of course they would not be appreciating and therefore
the government would be able to tax that money sooner. I do not
think anything could be more ludicrous. The way to solve that
problem is simply by reducing the benefits of RRSPs or the
premium contributions.
There is no question in my mind that the government's prime
purpose is to make a down payment on the whole concept of
continuous learning.
As an aside, there is one other little thing here that is not
about productivity that I thought I would mention, the home
givers tax credit. I was in a seniors home the other day and I
mentioned this credit. Everybody's eyes lit up because the
government was now recognizing how we are going to have to do
health care differently in this country.
1750
We cannot continue this process of institutionalizing people at
great cost when in fact many people are at home taking care
of their loved ones. They are often women who need that little
extra break, the $400 care giver tax credit, a down payment on a
different way and a better way to health care.
In conclusion, I am very happy to be part of a government that
has brought in such a sensible budget. Unfortunately it has
taken us a number of years but we are going to continue on that
track of reducing our deficit and debts in the future.
Mr. Lee Morrison (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Ref.):
Madam Speaker, the hon. member talks about a sensible budget. I
would like to give him an example of what this sensible budget
does to some ordinary people.
I have in my hometown a young single mother named Kathy McGuire.
She works for the town. She tosses garbage cans. She looks
after the water supply maintenance, whatever is necessary.
This woman by any definition is not wealthy. She has been hit
with an income tax bill of $800. This is how this government
repays people who work hard, who try their best to get along in
the world.
If Kathy had been a wealthy Toronto lawyer she would have got a
$3,000 child care expense deduction from her income tax.
Actually, under the new budget it will be $4,000. But this woman
cannot afford child care. So there is a catch-22. She is not
eligible to receive that wonderful deduction. She is caught.
Kathy has contributed to the balancing of the budget. I am sure
this makes her feel really great. She has also, if one wants to
be a little more cynical about this, contributed to about 1% or
2% of the cost of sending four freeloading members of Parliament
to Nagano to attend the Olympics.
I would like to know if the hon. member feels that this is
appropriate, that people at the bottom end of the pay scale have
to be hit with taxes. I hear some yapping over there. To some
of these people $800 is not a lot of money. I will tell you, it
is a heck of a lot of money to people who are out there doing
their best trying to make a living.
On behalf of everyone in this place I would like to extend my
sincere thanks to Kathy McGuire for forking out to help keep this
zoo going and for helping to balance the budget.
Mr. Alex Shepherd: Madam Speaker, I am sure that if I
knew Kathy McGuire's income perspective I could find something
that was very positive about this budget, but of course this is
the way the members ask their questions, just give you half of
the information so you cannot possibly do that.
The reality is I am very proud of that budget because in fact we
removed thousands and thousands of people, low income families
and low income people, from bracket creep by increasing personal
exemptions.
I have many constituents, senior citizens, who were paying taxes
before who are not paying them today. That is a major commitment
from the lower income people of this country.
Mr. Dick Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley, Ref.):
Madam Speaker, the hon. member from the Liberal Party certainly
did not answer the question from my hon. friend from
Saskatchewan.
1755
What he asked is how does the Liberal government explain its
caring budget to the lady in Saskatchewan who is scraping to get
by collecting cans and doing whatever she can. She cannot afford
to send her child to daycare. Therefore she is ineligible for
the child care tax credit.
How does this so-called Liberal caring government so proud of
its budget explain that budget to this lady who has been
relegated to some sort of a third class citizen because of this
budget? I would like the member to explain that.
Mr. Alex Shepherd: Madam Speaker, it is very simple to
explain to the member that within the last budget, the previous
budget, $850 million was given to the area of child tax credit
which his constituent would have benefited from.
Let us be honest. Let us be serious. The reality is that woman
is better off today than she would have been under a Reform
government.
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Madam Speaker, I
appreciate the opportunity to speak in response to the budget and
provide the views of the New Democratic Party. I will be sharing
my time with the member for Acadie—Bathurst.
We have heard a lot today and in other responses to the budget
that this budget is an education budget. It is a budget for
youth. We heard today in debate that it is a budget for equity, a
budget for women. More recently we heard it is a remarkable
budget and a sensible budget.
I want to tell the members of this House that having been in my
riding, like many other members, for the past week and speaking
with many of my constituents, this budget has been a huge
disappointment.
In my riding of Vancouver East people are asking a very key and
a very legitimate question. How will this budget improve the
lives of people in east Vancouver? The response I got was that
this budget is a failure.
It is a failure because if we look behind the fine lines and
fancy words it is a failure because it does not address the
issues of people who are unemployed. We have heard today in the
House in question period of the number of people who are
unemployed and because of the drastic changes to our EI program
the number of people who are now ending up on welfare.
The budget failed those people. It is a failure for people who
are living at and below the poverty line and who are working at
minimum wage jobs or in part time work and found nothing in this
budget to improve their standard of living.
This budget has failed women and we have heard a lot of
discussion today about international women's day and
international women's week but there is nothing in this budget
about pay equity or child care, for example.
This budget also fails people who are sick and who look to our
health care system and find there are enormous waiting lists or
lack of service and accessibility. This budget has also failed
aboriginal people who live in the urban environment. In my
riding I have a very large number of urban aboriginal people who
saw nothing in this budget that will address their very real
concerns of unemployment, poverty, lack of access to services.
This budget also failed children who live in poor families and
it fails students who are still facing massive cuts and
skyrocketing tuition fees.
The plain reality is the total program spending delivered in
this budget will decline to $104.5 billion in 1998-1999 from $106
billion in 1997-1998. That is a real decline in program spending
despite the promises made by the finance minister that 50% of the
surplus would go toward programs spending. The Liberals failed to
meet even their own promise and the other reality is that not a
single dollar of the cash transfers to provinces eliminated over
the past three years will be restored.
I would like to focus on two issues that involve my critic
areas. One is education and one deals with the child tax
benefit.
The first is education. We have heard so much hype about the
$2.5 billion going into the millennium fund. First of all, we
have to understand that this fund will not even begin until the
year 2000. Students need help today, not in the year 2000.
By the time we get to the year 2000 and this millennium fund
begins with its $250 million a year, we will have seen $3.1
billion taken out of post-secondary education.
That is devastating to our institutions, our universities, our
community colleges and our places of higher learning.
1800
The finance minister had a choice to restore the funding to the
provinces so we could strengthen post-secondary educational
facilities and ensure tuition fees would not continue to go up
and up. The government did not make that choice. The choice it
made was to set up a private foundation so it could hand out
little cheques every now and again to 7% of students, which means
that 93% of students will not be assisted by the millennium fund.
In a most cynical ploy the finance minister in all of his
background papers told us there were plans to change the
bankruptcy laws to ensure students are not able to declare
bankruptcy until 10 years after they complete their studies,
which is a change from the current two years. If the government
believes so strongly that it is helping students, why has it so
cynically changed the bankruptcy laws?
In British Columbia, Premier Clark announced a few days ago that
for the third year in a row tuition fees would be frozen. That
is the kind of leadership we wanted to see from the Liberal
government. It would say to students that we understand their
debt loads are too high, that tuition fees must be frozen and
that we are willing to support provincial transfers to increase
post-secondary educational facilities.
The child tax benefit is another issue. Every time the question
of unemployment and poverty comes up in the House we hear the
minister crow about the child tax benefit and what a glorious
program it is. I heard the minister say that it is the most
significant social policy since the 1960s.
I will explain what the reality is. This is not an anti-poverty
measure. We are talking about a program where the additional
$425 million will not even begin until July 1999. So much for
helping poor kids who live in poor families. What will that help
be? It will be a measly 80 cents a day. That is what we are
saying to kids. The child tax benefit is not indexed and does
not apply to people on welfare. There is not one mention in the
budget about a national child care program.
If the government truly cares about poverty, about helping
unemployed people and about equality as we heard today in glowing
terms, why does the budget fail to address any of these measures?
The reality is that the budget that was announced and debated
will not close the gap between the wealthy and five million
Canadians who are struggling to make ends meet and who are living
below the poverty line.
The Reform Party says that it wants tax cuts. I will read from
an article by Seth Klein of the Canadian Centre for Policy
Alternatives published in the Canadian Review of Social
Policy. The key goal is job creation. That should be the
government's priority. The paper points out very eloquently that
tax cuts are an inefficient way to create jobs. The tax cut
theory rests on the unsubstantiated hope that consumers will
spend more, that this in turn will translate into companies
hiring more people, and that the evidence suggests direct
government hiring and spending would create substantially more
jobs than tax cuts.
If we pursue this information further we see from the latest
information from Informetrica that directing $1 billion toward
new government hiring would create 25,000 jobs in the first year.
In contrast $1 billion toward personal income tax would create
only 9,000 jobs.
There is a very real issue about what course the government has
chosen. After four years of a slash and burn approach, of
cutting the transfers to the provinces, not one new dollar was
included in the budget in terms of restoring and reinvesting in
education and social programs. It is the height of cynicism and
hypocrisy that even the measures around the child tax benefit
will do nothing to seriously alleviate poverty.
Did the budget speak to a progressive taxation system?
Absolutely not.
There was silence on that measure.
1805
Did the budget deal with the $7.5 billion that the banks are
racking up in profits? Did it speak to reinvesting that money
so that ordinary Canadians could benefit? There was not a word
about that.
In closing, according to my constituents and other people across
Canada the budget failed miserably to address the growing
inequality in Canada. It lacked the leadership, the vision and
the courage to tackle head on the crisis of unemployment and the
lack of jobs.
The reality is that this was a banker's budget, not a people's
budget.
Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain (Guelph—Wellington, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, the hon. member talks about the budget being so
terrible. I represent Guelph which has a university. Its
president has written to say that this is a good budget. He is
very pleased because of all the things for students, for the
university, and for research and development.
When I hear the hon. member yelling and hollering about how
terrible everything is, it brings to mind the fact that we had an
NDP government in Ontario which spent way more than it could
afford. It lasted four years and was kicked severely out of
office because it never ever balanced a budget. It never spent
within its means.
I am afraid the member across the way is dreaming in Technicolor
to think everyone can afford everything. We have balanced the
deficit. We have a zero deficit after many years. The member
should recognize that there is a balancing act. We have put huge
amounts of money into health care and education. Eighty per cent
of the budget represents a spending in health care and education.
While the member is aghast, she need only look at the $1.5
billion in transfers and the megadollars put into many projects
for students that will benefit my community and others all across
Canada.
In my constituency office I have had very positive reviews on
the budget. I wish the hon. member could somehow talk about the
fact that even in the NDP's election campaign it overspent and
had to issue another book because it had spent so much.
The member needs a little dose of reality. Does she not think
that it is important to spend on education as we have in these
projects?
Ms. Libby Davies: Madam Speaker, I see reality every day
in my riding of Vancouver East. I understand what it is about
for people who live in poor housing, who are without work or who
do not have adequate health care resources and so on.
I ask the hon. member to check the facts. The budget did not
increase spending for health care. If the member checks the
facts, program spending is actually decreasing from $106 billion
in 1997-98 to $104.5 billion in 1998-99. If we just want to look
at education, there is not one increase in dollars for the
transfers to the provinces in education.
The government has announced a shell game, a $2.5 billion
millennium fund over a 10 year period or $250 million a year. By
the time that program starts we will have lost $3.1 billion from
post-secondary education.
Those are the facts and that is the reality. That is why
tuition fees and student debt will continue to go up despite the
bits of window dressing the government has brought in.
1810
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, on the weekend I happened to be in the hon. member's
constituency of Vancouver East. I understand the difficult
social and economic conditions of which she speaks.
The east end of Vancouver in many respects is a tragic scene of
economic devastation and social problems. For six years now
British Columbia has been governed by a New Democratic government
which has raised taxes and in so doing increased unemployment,
reducing opportunities for the people who now find themselves on
skid row in Vancouver.
The same thing happened in Ontario. Bob Rae raised taxes and
unemployment skyrocketed. If we look at Ontario we see that the
Mike Harris government has cut taxes, revenues have gone up, with
them health care spending has gone up and so too has employment.
Unemployment has gone down.
I ask the hon. member to compare her constituency to the city of
Calgary, for instance, which is in the province that has the
lowest provincial taxes in the country and an unemployment rate
of approximately 5%, nearly a third of what it is in the east end
of Vancouver.
Could she comment on the regional disparities with respect to
taxes and economic growth which exist in the country?
Ms. Libby Davies: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member
for his question and his comment. I would be happy to show him
what life is like in Vancouver East. He said that he visited
there recently. I would be happy to provide more detail about
the impact of federal cuts over the years.
It needs to be said that the situation in British Columbia and
in other provinces has worsened because of the incredible
devastation caused by the lack of transfer payments and the
diminishing transfer payments from the federal government. If
the Reform Party and the member cannot acknowledge that, they are
only telling part of the story.
In B.C. we are very fortunate that we still have a provincial
government which, for example, is committed to the provision, the
development and the financing of social housing. When he talks
about the people of my riding who are in very dire circumstances,
I would think he should be the first one to recognize the fact
that the Government of B.C. has continued to provide housing for
very low income people.
There was no mention of housing in the budget. If we want to
talk about jobs, what better program to generate jobs than a good
housing program? That is something the B.C. government has done.
When it comes to education, despite the cuts from the federal
government the province of British Columbia has maintained and in
fact has increased funding for education above that of any other
province, as well as funding for health care. It has also
maintained a tuition freeze for three years.
That is something we should be proud of. That is something the
federal government should be following and working to implement
with other provinces.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): It being 6.15 p.m.,
it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith
every question necessary to dispose of the amendment now before
the House.
Is the House ready for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The question is on the
following motion: Mr. Martin (LaSalle—Émard), seconded by Mr.
Gray (Windsor West) moved: That this House approves in general
the budgetary policy of the government.
Shall I dispense?
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Mr. Manning, seconded by Mr.
Solberg, moved: That the motion be amended by replacing all the
words after the word “That” with the following:
“the House of Commons reject the budget statement by the Minister
of Finance because it denies Canadians debt and tax relief by
spending away the federal budget surplus, thus killing
opportunities for job creation and economic growth; it leaves
Canadians saddled with the highest personal income tax rates in
the G-7 countries resulting in a systematic brain drain to
jurisdictions with lower taxation levels; it allows interest
charges on the national debt to consume one-third of every tax
dollar collected by the federal government and to exceed
spending on health care, education and old age security combined;
it continues the steady decrease in real disposable income for
the average Canadian through tax hikes; and it does not keep the
government's promise of committing 50% of the surplus to new
spending and the remaining 50% to some combination of debt
reduction and tax relief”.
1815
[English]
The question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the
House to adopt the amendment?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): All those in favour of
the amendment will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): All those opposed will
please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): In my opinion the
nays have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Call in the members.
1845
During the taking of the vote:
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
The motion moved too quickly and we did not get up in support of
the motion and it then reverted to the no. We wanted to register
our vote in favour of the motion and it moved to the opposite
side on the no vote before we had an opportunity to rise.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Does the hon. member have
unanimous consent of the House for the votes of the members of
his party to be recorded now?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
[English]
(The House divided on the amendment, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Bailey
| Benoit
|
Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Borotsik
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
|
Brison
| Cadman
| Casey
| Casson
|
Chatters
| Doyle
| Duncan
| Elley
|
Epp
| Forseth
| Gilmour
| Goldring
|
Gouk
| Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Hanger
|
Harris
| Harvey
| Herron
| Hill
(Macleod)
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hoeppner
| Jaffer
|
Johnston
| Jones
| Keddy
(South Shore)
| Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
|
Kerpan
| Lowther
| Lunn
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
|
Manning
| Mark
| Matthews
| Mayfield
|
McNally
| Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
|
Muise
| Obhrai
| Power
| Price
|
Ramsay
| Ritz
| Schmidt
| Scott
(Skeena)
|
Solberg
| Stinson
| St - Jacques
| Strahl
|
Thompson
(Charlotte)
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Wayne
| Williams – 64
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alarie
| Alcock
| Anderson
|
Assad
| Assadourian
| Augustine
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
|
Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Baker
| Bakopanos
| Beaumier
|
Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellehumeur
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bertrand
|
Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
|
Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brien
| Brown
|
Bryden
| Bulte
| Calder
| Cannis
|
Caplan
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Chrétien
(Saint - Maurice)
| Clouthier
|
Coderre
| Cohen
| Collenette
| Copps
|
Cullen
| Davies
| de Savoye
| Debien
|
Desjarlais
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Discepola
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duceppe
| Duhamel
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Finestone
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Fontana
| Fry
| Gagliano
|
Gagnon
| Gallaway
| Gauthier
| Godfrey
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goodale
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Guimond
| Harvard
|
Hubbard
| Ianno
| Iftody
| Jackson
|
Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
|
Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lebel
| Lee
|
Leung
| Lincoln
| Longfield
| Loubier
|
Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
|
Marchand
| Marchi
| Marleau
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
|
Massé
| McCormick
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
|
McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mercier
|
Mifflin
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
| Mitchell
|
Murray
| Myers
| Nault
| Normand
|
Nunziata
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
|
Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
|
Perron
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Pickard
(Kent – Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Pratt
|
Proctor
| Proud
| Provenzano
| Redman
|
Reed
| Richardson
| Riis
| Robillard
|
Rocheleau
| Rock
| Saada
| Sauvageau
|
Scott
(Fredericton)
| Serré
| Shepherd
| Solomon
|
Speller
| St. Denis
| Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| St - Hilaire
| St - Julien
| Stoffer
|
Szabo
| Telegdi
| Torsney
| Turp
|
Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
| Vautour
|
Venne
| Volpe
| Wappel
| Wasylycia - Leis
|
Whelan
| Wilfert
| Wood – 175
|
PAIRED
Members
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I declare the
amendment defeated.
ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
1850
[English]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to
have been moved.
BANKS
Mr. John Solomon (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, NDP):
Madam Speaker, in question period on February 2 I asked the
finance minister what proof he could give the House that the
monster merger between the Royal Bank and the Bank of Montreal
would be better for small businesses, farmers and Canadian
communities. I asked at the very least if he could promise it
would not make things worse. The minister replied that the
government had asked the task force on financial services to
address service to small business in its deliberations.
His answer offers little reassurance to small business owners or
farmers in my riding and in other parts of Canada. No one
believes the task force should be allowed by the Liberal
government to consider anything other than the interests of Bay
Street and the agenda of the big banks. That is why the NDP has
been calling for a parliamentary inquiry with full cross-Canada
public hearings so the people of Canada can speak to elected MPs
about their concerns regarding the bank merger.
It is pretty clear from the Canadian Federation of Independent
Business study entitled “Credit Where Credit is Due” that small
business is pretty close to fed up with the treatment it is
getting from the big six. CFIB president Catherine Swift told
the Globe and Mail that “the proposed merger between the
Royal Bank of Canada and the Bank of Montreal is worrisome to
small businesses because they want more, not fewer financial
institutions to choose from. The prospect of reducing the
already few players to even fewer is not a happy one”.
Eleven per cent of small business loan applications were
rejected by banks last year. This is up from 9% ten years ago, a
full 2% increase. Other studies show that only 3% of bank loans
granted by the big six are under $100,000.
In addition the CFIB found that small business loans are priced
well above loans to their larger counterparts and the gap is
widening. Big loans to big business equal small service charges
to big business, whereas small loans to small business equal big
service charges to small business. Is this fair? I think not.
The greatest problems for small businesses occur when they have
to deal with the very high turnover in account managers at the
big six banks. Many firms deal with three or more managers in as
many years. This situation is unlikely to improve if the monster
merger and others like it are approved. The banks seem to be
more interested in chasing risky international commercial loans
than in servicing their small business customers in Canada.
We have no reason to believe that foreign banks will provide any
more than minimal staff in our country. Meanwhile the bank
merger could cost up to 30,000 Canadian jobs.
The finance minister made the bizarre and quite desperate
accusation that somehow the NDP has found new friends in the
banks. As my leader said, he should look in the mirror. His
party accepted a quarter of a million dollars in donations from
the Royal Bank and the Bank of Montreal last year, and he himself
received a tidy $1,000 from Royal Bank chief executive officer
John Cleghorn for his own campaign in addition to another $1,000
from Nesbitt Burns.
The government can make some choices. It can choose to approve
the monster merger and reduce competition still further or it can
pass a community reinvestment act and require the Canadian banks
to do their job and service the credit needs of small businesses,
farmers and communities in our country. If these minimum
requirements are not met, perhaps issuing a bank charter to
Canadians who want to meet these national objectives should be
looked at.
1855
If the chartered banks will not do what they are supposed to do
for Canadians under their charter, maybe their charter should be
given to those who will.
Mr. Tony Valeri (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): Madam Speaker, this government has supported
and will continue to support increasing small business access to
financing. However the CRA approach is not the only vehicle under
which this can be done.
It is also important to assess the impact this legislation has
had in the United States. Overall the legislation has been useful
in raising U.S. lenders' awareness of their lending patterns by
requiring data reporting and record keeping.
It is also not clear whether a CRA regime would be well suited
to Canada. Unlike the regional and highly fragmented banking
system in the U.S., we already have a national banking system
that transfers resources from savers to borrowers in all regions
of this country. My concern is that any policy that requires
balancing of lending and deposits within communities could in
fact serve to restrict rather than propel economic growth.
It is also important to mention that the House industry
committee represented by members of Parliament from across this
country has successfully convinced the banks to provide
information, without the CRA legislation, on business loans by
size, region and industrial grouping. We will continue to monitor
this reporting to ensure that the banks continue to do their
share in financing of small business.
On the issue of mergers which the member brought up as well, he
talks about little reassurance being given by the finance
minister and the fact that he calls for cross-country hearings. I
would say and we have said time and again that this deal is on
hold. It is going nowhere until we have had the opportunity to
hear from the task force and Canadians have had their say on its
recommendations.
Our bottom line is that in fact until the big questions are
answered and unless this deal works for Canadians, it will not
work at all. I cannot be any clearer than that.
Once again I thank the hon. member for his interest. I invite
him to join the finance committee when in fact we go across the
country to hear from Canadians.
FISHERIES
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, on February 6 I asked the Minister of Fisheries and
Oceans a question with respect to Yves Fortier who had just quit
as Canada's chief Pacific salmon negotiator.
This is an issue which I have been deeply concerned about. This
government has had four years to deal with it. As I stand here
in my place and speak today, we are worse off than we were on
June 2 when I was elected. I will not say that it seemed to be
the height of the crisis because I think it could get even worse,
but it was a very tough and difficult time for us, as has been
the last four years.
We are worse off today than we were before. At the present time
we have no negotiators acting on Canada's behalf. We have heard
the minister make statements in recent weeks that they are
waiting for the United States to contact Canada to resume
negotiations. I would suggest that we have had over four years
now, a time of waiting, and we have to get on with it.
The reason I asked the question about Yves Fortier is that he
was the one person whom British Columbia fishermen had confidence
in and he was acting on their behalf. He has now left and it is
arguable why he left. I would suggest he left because the
government did not give him the backing he needed. He saw no way
out of the dispute without a commitment from this government.
Will the minister tell British Columbia fishermen how they can
expect to have any confidence in this government when our
negotiator had none?
This is a very serious issue. At present we are only a few
months away from the beginning of the next fishing season and we
do not have anybody representing our issues. We are not even in
discussions. We are not in negotiations. Nothing is happening.
Zero. Four years of nothing and it is going downward.
This government has to get on with it. This is a very important
issue. Again I ask the parliamentary secretary what his
government's plans are. When is the government going to act?
When can we expect negotiations to resume? Does the government
anticipate having this matter resolved prior to the next fishing
season?
1900
Mr. Wayne Easter (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Fisheries and Oceans, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I wonder where
this member has been for the last while. On February 23 I
answered this very same question for the member for
Sackville—Eastern Shore.
In any event the resignation of Mr. Yves Fortier as Canada's
chief negotiator in Pacific salmon is a matter that we on this
side admit is of great regret.
Since 1993 he has worked tirelessly to achieve an agreement with
the United States to implement fully the provisions of the
Pacific salmon treaty. His negotiating skills, as the member has
mentioned and I agree with him on this point, and his dedication
to the task have earned him admiration and the respect of
ministers, government officials and, most important, Canadian
fishermen.
Given the high regard in which Mr. Fortier is held, he is being
done a disservice by those who have attempted to use out of
context excerpts from his letter of resignation and put a
negative spin on his views.
Mr. Fortier's letter to Ministers Axworthy and Anderson
describes his experience as chief negotiator over the past five
years. He assesses the current situation and he provides advice
on the direction we should go. All Canadians share his
frustrations on this point.
Mr. Fortier explains why an agreement was not attainable.
Primarily it was the reluctance of the United States federal
administration to insist that the United States regional
interests honour obligations toward Canada under the treaty.
This point comes as no surprise to anyone who has followed this
file over the past five years.
Mr. Fortier's letter cautions that meaningful change in the
United States negotiating position is unlikely. This remains to
be seen, but no Canadian is under the illusion that we cannot
achieve a negotiated—
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The hon. member for
Sarnia—Lambton.
HIGHWAY SYSTEM
Mr. Roger Gallaway (Sarnia—Lambton, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, on November 25, 1997 I asked the question what are we
doing as a government to prepare for the coming NAFTA
superhighway.
We often have a habit in this place of saying “well, if it is
highway it is not a federal responsibility, it is a provincial
responsibility and don't talk to us about it”. I must say I
was very pleased to hear the minister's response that there is an
interparliamentary group working to ensure that we do monitor
activities in the United States and that we are paying attention
to this issue.
For those who are not familiar with this concept, the NAFTA
superhighway is an American idea whereby they are going to build
a trade corridor. This is not simply a transportation issue,
this is an issue of trade between two countries. This is an
issue which is of great concern in a number of border crossings
in Ontario because highways are not just places where people
drive trucks and cars these days, but they are trade routes.
They are, by way of analogy, the railroad passage way of another
era.
It is very important that we as a country, particularly when in
southern Ontario at one crossing there are exports of more than
$200 million worth of goods per year, ensure that there is an
adequate highway system. It is going to be more than a highway
system, it is going to be a communications system. When these
goods are exported or when goods are imported, it will be done in
a timely fashion and there will not be interference. For
Canadians this is a massive project for trade. Jobs and trade go
hand in hand.
I am pleased to know that the government is monitoring this and
that in the future the Department of Transport will be ready to
move in concert with out American neighbours.
Mr. Stan Keyes (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Madam Speaker, given the hon. member's
intervention, I guess there really is no need for an answer of
any kind.
The hard working member for Sarnia—Lambton raised an important
question concerning trade corridors in the national highway
system. The member's question demonstrates his keen awareness
that transportation is a strategic asset that can drive a
country's economy. To capitalize on continental trade links we
need not only the right rules and regulations, but we also need
to have the right infrastructure.
Transport Canada certainly recognizes the importance of
north-south trade corridors, but also the critical importance of
their productivity with east-west highways.
In this regard the department is currently working, as the member
is obviously aware because it was stated in the House moments
ago, with the provinces to update a national highway system
study.
1905
Highways in Canada are under provincial jurisdiction.
Nevertheless, the federal government has assisted the provinces
with highway construction since 1919. Future cost shared
programs must consider highways important to our trade, whether
north-south or east-west.
Federal departments are also actively promoting trade and
traffic through co-operative efforts with counterparts in the
U.S. to enhance the efficiency and operation of border crossing
facilities. In this regard the federal government is well aware
of and closely monitoring proposals being considered in the U.S.
for funding in areas such as trade corridors and border gateways.
In summary, there are a number of cross-cutting issues which
affect trade and transportation corridors. We must recognize
that while there has been strong growth in north-south trade the
east-west dimension remains critically important and we must
co-operate in and co-ordinate the deployment of intelligent
transportation systems in order to enhance trade and reduce
congestion. We must pursue standards harmonizing under the
NAFTA. Finally, we must explore the trade benefits which may be
possible through the maximization of modal efficiencies and
inter-modal linkages. There may also be important environmental
benefits inherent in this total approach.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The motion to adjourn the
House is now deemed adopted. Accordingly, this House stands
adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order
24(1).
(The House adjourned at 7.06 p.m.)