EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 124
CONTENTS
Wednesday, September 23, 1998
1400
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | FEDNOR
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Carmen Provenzano |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | YOUNG OFFENDERS ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Myron Thompson |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MICHEL DOUCET
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Claudette Bradshaw |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EXPERIENCE CANADA
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Stan Dromisky |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MERCHANT NAVY VETERANS
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | OLDTIMERS' HOCKEY NEWS
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | YVES DE ROUSSAN
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | WALK A CHILD TO SCHOOL
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Sarmite Bulte |
1405
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CULTURAL POLICY
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Janko Peric |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MERCHANT NAVY
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Goldring |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | RIDING OF BEAUPORT—MONTMORENCY—CÔTE-DE-BEAUPRÉ—ÎLE-D'ORLÉANS
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PAY EQUITY
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Angela Vautour |
1410
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | SEARCH AND RESCUE
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. George Proud |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | TORONTO INTERNATIONAL FILM FESTIVAL
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Carolyn Bennett |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CHEESEMAKER LUC MAILLOUX
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Pierre de Savoye |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | LITTLE LEAGUE CHAMPIONS
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Randy White |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | WORLD MARITIME WEEK
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvon Charbonneau |
1415
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | APEC SUMMIT
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Preston Manning |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Preston Manning |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Preston Manning |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Reynolds |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
1420
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Reynolds |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Richard Marceau |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Richard Marceau |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Alexa McDonough |
1425
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Alexa McDonough |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
1430
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Abbott |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Abbott |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Michel Gauthier |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Michel Gauthier |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE SENATE
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Miss Deborah Grey |
1435
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Miss Deborah Grey |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADIAN ECONOMY
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvan Loubier |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Paul Martin |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvan Loubier |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Paul Martin |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE SENATE
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Rahim Jaffer |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
1440
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Rahim Jaffer |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MONTREAL CONVENTION CENTRE
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Antoine Dubé |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Martin Cauchon |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PRESIDENT OF SOUTH AFRICA
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Marlene Jennings |
1445
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. David Kilgour |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADA PENSION PLAN
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Paul Martin |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Paul Martin |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | APEC SUMMIT
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Svend J. Robinson |
1450
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Svend J. Robinson |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Diane St-Jacques |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Diane St-Jacques |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEALTH
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gurbax Singh Malhi |
1455
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | AGRICULTURE
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Howard Hilstrom |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | SCRAPIE
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Hélène Alarie |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | APEC SUMMIT
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Mancini |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | FISHERIES
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Matthews |
1500
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | AGRICULTURE
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Harvard |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Sergio Marchi |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | INTERNATIONAL LABOUR ORGANIZATION
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | POINTS OF ORDER
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Public Works and Government Services
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
1505
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | INTERPARLIAMENTARY DELEGATIONS
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Carolyn Parrish |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Joe Comuzzi |
1510
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | COMPREHENSIVE NUCLEAR TEST-BAN TREATY IMPLEMENTATION ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-52. Introduction and first reading
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. John Manley |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADA SMALL BUSINESS FINANCING ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-53. Introduction and first reading
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. John Manley |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADA POST CORPORATION ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-431. Introduction and first reading
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Pat Martin |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | LABOUR MARKET TRAINING ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-432. Introduction and first reading
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Pat Martin |
1515
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CRIMINAL CODE
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-433. Introduction and first reading
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PETITIONS
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-225
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Richardson |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Crime Prevention
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Marriage
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ted White |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Post-TAGS Early Retirement Program
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Matthews |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Natural Health Products
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Grant Hill |
1520
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hepatitis C
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Grant Hill |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Firearms Act
|
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Howard Hilstrom |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Transferred for debate
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Pankiw |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Dick Harris |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Transferred for debate
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT ORDERS
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | COMPETITION ACT
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-20. Third reading
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lucienne Robillard |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Bryden |
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Mac Harb |
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Rahim Jaffer |
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Antoine Dubé |
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chris Axworthy |
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Jones |
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Walt Lastewka |
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Division on motion deferred
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Suspension of Sitting
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bob Kilger |
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Sitting Resumed
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(Division 229)
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion agreed to
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CRIMINAL CODE
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-258. Second reading
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Forseth |
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Eleni Bakopanos |
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Nunziata |
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Grant McNally |
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Lynn Myers |
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Forseth |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Bonwick |
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Aboriginal Affairs
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gordon Earle |
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. David Iftody |
![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Health
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Greg Thompson |
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![V](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Elinor Caplan |
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(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 124
![](/web/20061116183929im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/crest2.gif)
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Wednesday, September 23, 1998
The House met at 2 p.m.
Prayers
1400
The Speaker: As is our practice on Wednesday we will now
sing O Canada, and we will be led by the hon. member for Fraser
Valley.
[Editor's Note: Members sang the national anthem]
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
FEDNOR
Mr. Carmen Provenzano (Sault Ste. Marie, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I rise to congratulate FedNor, northern Ontario's
regional economic development agency, on a highly successful
youth internship program.
Designed to promote the employment of recent college and
university graduates, FedNor's internship initiative gives
participants a needed chance to gain valuable work experience in
community economic development, market research and the
application of new business technologies.
Industry Canada through FedNor has invested nearly $1.5 million
this year in northern Ontario youth internships. In fact, an
investment of over $69,000 in internship funding was announced in
my riding just last week.
The best news of all is that FedNor's funding was stabilized in
the 1998 federal budget, meaning young northern Ontarians will
benefit from this internship program for years to come.
* * *
YOUNG OFFENDERS ACT
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
everyone here in the House of Commons will be receiving a letter
from Keith Addy who is with us today in the gallery. Keith was a
security guard from Ottawa who was in a coma after a hit and run
by young offenders. The accident left him unable to fulfil his
dreams of becoming a police officer.
I hope that you all will take time to respond to this young man.
I think he deserves more than just a form letter from the
government benches.
The following are some excerpts from his letter: “I have
become, due to the intentional actions of a group of young
offenders in July 1996, a victim. I did not choose this
notoriety, it was thrust upon me that morning and has changed my
life forever.
“Will incidents like mine be properly dealt with by the law? I
think not, so long as the government fails to punish young people
in a meaningful way for their crimes. All we victims ask for is
justice.
“Our Minister of Justice and the rest of the federal government
need to hear that the public is calling out for the Young
Offenders Act to be abolished. The present amendments made to
the YOA are by no means sufficient and the time to act is long
overdue”.
* * *
[Translation]
MICHEL DOUCET
Mrs. Claudette Bradshaw (Moncton«Riverview—Dieppe, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, on September 18, Michel Doucet, Dean of the Université
de Moncton Law School, was on the merit list on the occasion of
the national symposium on official languages.
Mr. Doucet has made a huge contribution to the advancement of
language rights of the Acadian and francophone communities. He
has always encouraged the promotion and development of the
socio-legal aspects of official languages. As well, his ideas
culminated in the creation of the Association des juristes
d'expression française du Nouveau-Brunswick.
[English]
Mr. Doucet is an ardent supporter of the advancement of
linguistic rights of Acadian and francophone communities.
I would like to congratulate him on being conferred an award of
distinction, an honour he truly deserves.
[Translation]
My sincere congratulations to Mr. Doucet for this well-deserved
honour.
* * *
[English]
EXPERIENCE CANADA
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Thunder Bay—Atikokan, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, Experience Canada is a national career development
program designed to reduce youth unemployment and increase
national unity by helping graduates gain the work experience they
need to qualify for the modern workplace.
Eligible participants benefit from an all expenses paid, 24-week
work experience in a province or territory other than their own.
They emerge from the program with a better understanding of the
country, greater confidence and real work experience.
This is a win-win program. Canada wins because young Canadians
are made more productive. Participants win because they acquire
new skills and confidence. Funding comes from the private sector
and Human Resources Canada.
Here is another fine example of how this government is helping
young Canadians.
* * *
MERCHANT NAVY VETERANS
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, I rise
today to once again address this government's lack of compassion.
Early this morning, merchant navy veterans began to arrive on
the Hill and two of them are up here in the gallery today. They
arrived to protest the absence of the minister's promised
legislation. This legislation was to make these veterans equal
with all veterans in Canada.
When the minister stopped this morning to speak to the veterans,
he was asked about compensation. His reply was “We cannot turn
back the clock”. Thank God these brave soldiers did not turn
back in World War II. Instead, they fought for our freedom and
were never given any meaningful recognition for their role. These
men and women may perish on the steps of Parliament Hill but the
freedom they gave to us will never die.
It is my hope that the government will show some compassion soon
and not turn its back on these vets as it did on the innocent
victims of hepatitis C.
* * *
OLDTIMERS' HOCKEY NEWS
Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
everyone knows that oldtimers hockey began in Peterborough.
However, some may have forgotten that the bible of the sport, the
Oldtimers' Hockey News, was also conceived and born in
Peterborough. It was first published in 1975 by Dave Tatham but
it was stolen away by Ottawa.
I am pleased to announce that the Oldtimers' Hockey News
is once again being published in Peterborough. It has been
acquired by Peterborough This Week, one of our community
newspapers. This means that 37,500 readers around the world will
be hearing from Peterborough throughout the hockey season.
My congratulations to Peterborough This Week for bringing
this important part of our local national heritage back to
Peterborough. I urge all members to renew their subscriptions to
the Oldtimers' Hockey News.
* * *
YVES DE ROUSSAN
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise to pay homage to Yves de Roussan, one of the two Canadians
killed on Swissair flight 111.
Mr. de Roussan was a regional adviser with UNICEF, the United
Nations Children's Fund. His wife and four children survive him.
The Canadian and international aid community and the developing
world will miss him.
He began working with UNICEF helping street kids in Brazil. He
worked with children on the front line with issues like AIDS and
drug abuse. In Madagascar and Angola he headed emergency
programs under extremely difficult conditions.
He was appointed regional adviser for youth programs in the
former Soviet Union and central Europe.
Mr. de Roussan left behind a legacy of hope for deprived
children in the world.
We have lost a great Canadian and an aid worker who has done our
country proud around the world helping people and children in
particular.
* * *
WALK A CHILD TO SCHOOL
Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parkdale—High Park, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to recognize and salute the
city of Toronto's first annual Walk a Child to School Day.
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Today parents from my riding and throughout the city of Toronto
took the time to walk their children to school.
By supporting today's walk, parents, teachers and children are
addressing many of the important issues that our society faces.
Today parents and teachers are promoting safer streets, stronger
communities, healthier students and a cleaner environment.
While this special day may have started in Toronto, the idea has
already spread and has captured the imagination and interest of
parents across our country. Schools in Vancouver, Calgary,
Ottawa, Halifax and Surrey will also take part in this special
day.
It gives me great pleasure to salute the organizers and the
participants who today took the time and made the effort for our
children and participated in the first annual Walk a Child to
School Day.
* * *
CULTURAL POLICY
Mr. Janko Peric (Cambridge, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise to
congratulate the Minister of Canadian Heritage for her vision and
leadership in organizing an important international meeting on
cultural policy this summer.
The goal of this meeting was to build alliances and promote
international co-operation for enhancing cultural sovereignty and
diversity in the face of globalization.
Discussions during the Ottawa meeting were built around three
themes: cultural diversity; the role of culture in global
relations; and culture and trade.
Through meetings such as these, the importance of protecting and
enhancing Canadian and other cultures is brought front and centre
on the world stage.
I urge the minister to continue to build on this success.
* * *
MERCHANT NAVY
Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
Canada's merchant navy of World War II is proud of its
contribution to a free world and should remain the recipient of
the enduring respect of all Canadians.
Canadians must recognize fully that our existence and privileges
enjoyed today are due not only to the efforts of our veterans but
also to the efforts of their missing comrades around the world.
Few finer examples of Canadian wartime success and magnificent
effort can be found than in the annals of the Battle of the
Atlantic, where merchant seamen sailed the enemy infested sea in
keeping allies supplied in World War II.
Now 55 years hence, three determined seamen, Pope, MacLean and
MacArthur, await with resolve for a response to their grievances
and hunger strike.
Why, Mr. Minister, are they driven to such dire straits? Please
answer their call lest a tragedy occur at the very door of this
House.
* * *
[Translation]
RIDING OF BEAUPORT—MONTMORENCY—CÔTE-DE-BEAUPRÉ—ÎLE-D'ORLÉANS
Mr. Michel Guimond
(Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—île-d'Orléans, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
I am pleased to point out to you that my riding will now have a
new name, one which will task your memory, but which better
reflects the nature of the riding. That name is
Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—île-d'Orléans.
I will explain the characteristics of this designation:
Beauport refers to the city in the centre of the riding;
Montmorency refers to the majestic Montmorency Falls, which I
would remind you are higher than Niagara Falls; the name Beaupré
refers to the magnificent landscapes along that part of the
shores of the St Lawrence, and reminds us of the part it played
in the first colonization by the French in America; finally, Île
d'Orléans, immortalized by our famous poet Félix Leclerc, is
where the highest concentration of 17th century houses and the
best strawberries in America can be found.
From now on, whenever the name of my riding is heard in the
House of Commons, I know that I shall be the envy of my
distinguished colleagues.
I invite all members to come and see for themselves how true my
claims for the riding are.
* * *
[English]
PAY EQUITY
Ms. Angela Vautour (Beauséjour—Petitcodiac, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, women across this country have been waiting 14 years for
government to recognize pay equity.
Federal employees have been waiting far too long. It is
unacceptable.
Let me tell the House about one of these employees. For 25
years Marie Ann Wry from Sackville in my riding was a loyal
federal employee working at the Dorchester Penitentiary. She
strongly believed in pay equity.
In 1992, concerned about the Conservative stalling tactics to
implement pay equity, she wrote to the leader of the opposition,
now our Prime Minister. The leader of the opposition replied
that a Liberal government would try to promote greater equality
in the public service and Canadian society in general.
That letter was really important to Ms. Wry. She held on to
this letter until her death last January. Until her last day she
was hoping the Liberals would honour pay equity. It was in vain.
How many more women will have to die before this is settled?
* * *
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SEARCH AND RESCUE
Mr. George Proud (Hillsborough, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is
my pleasure today to bring to the attention of this House the
outstanding bravery of two members of the Canadian forces. On
November 12, 1996 an individual on a Danish trawler near
Resolution Island lay critically ill. To save his life two
search and rescue technicians from Greenwood made a dangerous and
unprecedented night parachute jump into freezing arctic waters.
They could easily have said no but Master Corporal Keith
Mitchell and Master Corporal Brian Pierce made the daring
decision to jump when bad weather forced the original rescue team
to land their helicopter. They battled three-metre waves and high
winds that carried them away from the vessel. Struggling to stay
afloat, the two men fought off the beginnings of hypothermia
until a Zodiac picked them up. After the harrowing experience
they stabilized the critically ill man's condition, saving his
life.
For their efforts each were awarded the Cross of Valour,
Canada's highest decoration for bravery in peacetime. These two
people represent the type of men and women who serve the Canadian
forces and face adversity with courage. Congratulations to them
both.
* * *
TORONTO INTERNATIONAL FILM FESTIVAL
Ms. Carolyn Bennett (St. Paul's, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this
past Saturday night marked the closing gala of the 23rd annual
Toronto International Film Festival. The film festival, which is
one of the most highly respected and renowned in the world, saw
the presentation of 311 films from 53 countries over 10 days. I
am most proud of the fact that 26 Canadian feature films and 42
Canadian shorts were screened at this festival.
I would like to extend my congratulations to Mr. Piers Handling,
festival director, who was bestowed the insignia of Chevalier des
Arts et Lettres by the French delegation at a ceremony held on
September 15. Through the hard work of individuals such as Mr.
Handling, the film festival has become a truly impressive
showcase of talent to the world.
Canadian film making has always provided a lens through which to
gain insight into our unique Canadian culture. The Toronto
International Film Festival affords us an outstanding opportunity
to present that to the world while at the same time it provides
us with a forum to display our outstanding facilities, talented
industry workers and extremely knowledgeable audience. I am
delighted to rise today—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Portneuf.
* * *
[Translation]
CHEESEMAKER LUC MAILLOUX
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, today I am
pleased to honour a cheesemaker from my riding who was recently
awarded the Dairy Farmers of Canada Grand Prix in Halifax. The
jury also awarded him the trophy for Grand Champion, all
categories.
This cheesemaker, Luc Mailloux, owns Piluma de Saint-Basile farm
in Portneuf county, which produces Saint-Basile, Chevalier
Mailloux, Sarah Brizou and Sainte-Angélique, which are all raw
milk cheeses.
I would just like to point out that, had it not been for the
Bloc Quebecois' initiative two years ago, raw milk cheeses would
have been banned by the Government of Canada. Fortunately, Luc
Mailloux and his wife Sarah Tristan have been able to continue
to produce these excellent cheeses—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Langley—Abbotford.
* * *
[English]
LITTLE LEAGUE CHAMPIONS
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
members of the House of Commons and all Canadians, this summer
Canadians watched a team of young men from Langley, British
Columbia capture the Canadian Little League Championship. We
then watched this outstanding team as they progressed to the
semifinals of the Little League World Series.
This Langley, British Columbia team consisted of dedicated young
men, coaches, a manager, parents and a caring community all
contributing and striving to be the very best they can be.
Langley in my riding is well known for its beautiful scenery,
community involvement and strong family values. It is now also
known as the place where the Canadian Little League champions
reside.
We in this House of Commons and indeed we in Canada want these
young ambassadors, their parents, supporters and sponsors to know
that we are very very proud of their strength, dedication and
achievements.
* * *
[Translation]
WORLD MARITIME WEEK
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau (Anjou—Rivière-des-Prairies, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, this is the week the UN has declared to be World
Maritime Week. It gives us an opportunity to reflect on the
contribution the seas have made to the development of mankind.
They are a source of inestimable wealth, and, over the
centuries, have been indispensable to explorers seeking new
vistas and adventures far from home.
Woven into our history and vital to our economic development,
the seas remind us daily of our common duty to protect and
develop them so that their wealth may continue to contribute to
the development of all nations.
1415
This duty is particularly compelling for us whose country they
border to the east, the north and the west.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
APEC SUMMIT
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the greatest security risk at the APEC summit was not
from peaceful protesters, it was from armed bodyguards
surrounding dictator Suharto of Indonesia.
Some of these bodyguards even talked about shooting Canadians
for carrying signs. Five of them became so violent they
actually had to be arrested themselves.
What does it say about the Prime Minister's priorities when
foreign hit men are allowed to do their own thing on Canadian
streets but Canadian students are not?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, they were arrested.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, five were arrested—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition.
Mr. Preston Manning: Five were arrested, Mr. Speaker.
The rest were not and none of them were pepper sprayed.
Surely it is the responsibility of the Prime Minister to stand
up for human rights, at least at home, and not to fluff the
pillow for some foreign dictator.
What Canadians do not understand is why the Prime Minister went
to such extraordinary lengths for a foreign dictator who is
reviled in his own country, even suppressing the rights of
Canadians in order to protect him simply from embarrassment.
The next time the government invites a brutal dictator to
Canada, does the Prime Minister intend to conduct himself in the
same way?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the APEC meeting rules were established to protect the
security of all the leaders. The rules apply to all the leaders:
the President of the United States, the Prime Minister of
Australia, the Prime Minister of Malaysia, the Prime Minister of
Japan.
We had a system to make sure that they could come to the APEC
meeting, a very important meeting, and deliberate in a peaceful
atmosphere. The exact same rules applied to everyone.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, Canadians are still waiting to hear precisely what was
the Prime Minister's role in authorizing the special treatment of
Suharto and the attack on the Canadian students.
The public complaints inquiry will not tell us that because,
according to the RCMP Act, that inquiry only investigates the
conduct of RCMP officers and not their political masters.
Who will be investigating the role of the Prime Minister in this
whole affair? Will the Prime Minister co-operate fully?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have nothing to hide. There is an inquiry and in fact
it has asked two members of my staff to appear. They have
volunteered to be there. The sherpa responsible for the
conference will appear also.
The commission will decide who it wants to hear. It will do its
work. Let it do its work.
Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister. Forty boxes
of evidence were turned over to commission counsel and virtually
nothing in those boxes had any evidence from the Prime Minister's
office or the PMO.
What assurance can the Prime Minister give Canadians that,
unlike the Somalia affair, documents of the APEC affair will not
be shredded?
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I think the Public Complaints Commission has
distinguished itself over the years quite remarkably.
In fact, Canadians have every right to the truth on this matter.
Parliament, this institution, decided that the way to get to that
truth was through this very organization. I really wish that they
would let them do their work.
1420
Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is to the Prime Minister.
We, like all Canadians, want to know the truth. We know there
is a commission. We know the commission cannot investigate the
government. We want assurances from this government that unlike
Somalia, unlike the Krever commission, documents will not be
shredded so that this commission gets everything that is
available from this government.
Anybody who did anything from the PMO, the solicitor general's
office and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs should be before that
commission. That is what Canadians demand. We want the
assurance from this government that they will do that.
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it is because we have such high regard for the Public
Complaints Commission that when it makes these requests it gets
the information it asked for.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday, the Prime Minister said, and I quote “I have been in
politics for a long time. As a minister, I have seen many people
in departments speaking on behalf of their ministers or on
behalf of the Prime Minister, not knowing—”
Was the Prime Minister telling us that individuals in his own
office acted without his knowledge in the Suharto matter,
without his being informed?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the answer is no.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
either the Prime Minister was informed or he was talking for the
sake of talking yesterday. It has to be one or the other, not
both.
Could the Prime Minister tell us whether the Minister of Foreign
Affairs, on his return from Indonesia, told him of the
commitments he had made that there would be no problems and that
Suharto would not be troubled during his visit to Vancouver?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the Minister of Foreign Affairs made a statement about that
yesterday.
We told all heads of state that they could come to Canada, that
their lives would not be in danger and their security would be
ensured and that we could carry on normal talks, because we were
discussing very important problems at that point, such as the
Asian financial crisis.
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question
is for the Prime Minister.
One might wonder how innocuous student groups could endanger the
lives of other leaders. We learned this morning that not only
did the RCMP brutally repress the demonstrators in Vancouver,
but that it also infiltrated student groups.
Does the Prime Minister deny the direct link between the
extraordinary promises of the Minister of Foreign Affairs and
the extraordinary actions of the RCMP, who pepper-spray,
infiltrate, shove and even, as a preventive measure, arrest
completely harmless students?
[English]
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it surprises me that members of parliament would have
such disregard for an instrument that was set up by parliament to
get to the truth of this matter.
These are old questions that relate to that inquiry and they
have the responsibility to let the instrument of this place do
its job.
[Translation]
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Prime Minister, since the solicitor general
has, as usual, been left out of the loop.
Is the clearly extreme behaviour of the RCMP, who infiltrate,
rough up, and—I repeat—as a preventive measure, arrest
demonstrating students, not the direct result of this Prime
Minister's obsession with doing whatever it took to bring this
dictator to Canada?
[English]
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, in a free and democratic society Canadians have the
right to a way of challenging the law enforcement agencies, in
this case the RCMP.
That instrument, as established by the Parliament of Canada, is
the Public Complaints Commission. Most of the questions being
put here today are questions that would be directed to the Public
Complaints Commission and I wish that the members opposite would
let it get to the truth because that is what Canadians deserve.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Prime Minister. Yesterday the Prime Minister
blamed staff for the shameful suppression of the peaceful protest
that took place at the APEC summit.
He has now had time to reflect on those facts.
Will the Prime Minister tell us today whether it was his staff
acting in his name or whether he himself gave the orders?
1425
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member likes to make vague accusations based on
nothing.
There is an inquiry and the inquiry will ask questions.
They have asked for the presence of two people on my staff, who
said they would be happy to go. The other people who are
responsible for the meeting, like the sherpa, are willing to go.
Everything will be available for the commission to look at.
We received these leaders and everything went according—
The Speaker: The hon. leader of the New Democratic Party.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
Prime Minister may deny involvement, but eyewitnesses suggest
otherwise.
Inside the APEC security net, Chief Gail Sparrow saw the Prime
Minister barking out orders, not just to his own staff but to
security staff as well.
When will the Prime Minister stop denying his direct
participation in this fiasco?
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I think it is important for members of all parties to
recognize that, in Canada, Canadians have the opportunity to
challenge the authority of the RCMP in this case. There is a
process in place. It was set up by the previous government and
it deserves the right to do its job.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, today
Canada welcomes President Nelson Mandela, who spent his life
fighting for human rights and civil liberties.
Canada's former prime minister, Brian Mulroney, stood up with
President Mandela in that noble struggle. Today we have a Prime
Minister who appears to care less about civil liberties and more
about sparing dictator embarrassment.
Will the Prime Minister, like Mr. Mandela, do the right thing?
Will he give this House a full account of his role in the RCMP
actions against Canadians at the APEC summit?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I can see that the hon. member is moving from blue to
almost red at this moment. We know that she understands the
party has to evolve a bit.
Yes, I am happy to say that Prime Minister Mulroney, like his
predecessors, starting with Prime Minister Diefenbaker, were
working strongly against apartheid in South Africa. And we are
very happy that Nelson Mandela is coming here.
With respect to human rights, I would like to tell the hon.
member that I was the one, as the minister of justice, who worked
for months with attorneys general and the House of Commons to
have—
The Speaker: The hon. leader of the Conservative Party.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, section
19 of the Immigration Act prohibits security personnel who work
for a government engaged in gross human rights violations from
entering Canada unless the immigration minister is satisfied
these people are not detrimental to the national interest.
1430
Indonesia under Suharto killed countless people. Since the
Prime Minister will not answer my first question, will the
minister of immigration tell us if she believes it was in
Canada's interest to let in Suharto's so-called goons with guns,
the same goons who asked the RCMP if it was okay to shoot
Canadians?
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, once again the hon. member displays a real lack of
understanding as to the process in place. The public complaints
commission established by her government, the last government,
was established specifically so Canadians would have recourse.
They have it and I feel strongly that we need to protect the
integrity of that process so that we can get to the truth.
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
so far the Prime Minister has been hiding behind the solicitor
general under the assumption of the Canadian public that this is
actually going to be a public inquiry. It is not. It is under
the public complaints commission of the RCMP act. It has no
ability to be able to go after the Prime Minister and the
political interference.
I ask the solicitor general to quit guarding and hiding the
Prime Minister under his assertions and do the right thing, a
judicial inquiry so we can uncover this affair.
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I would ask the hon. member to quit undermining the
integrity of the public complaints commission and let it do
its job.
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
it will be of interest to this House to realize that under the
Canada Evidence Act, which this inquiry is working under, in
section 37 a minister of the crown may object to disclosure of
information.
What kind of an inquiry are we going to have if the minister,
the Prime Minister, decides that he wants to withhold
information? This minister has a responsibility as the solicitor
general. He is not just a cabinet minister. He is the Solicitor
General of Canada for all Canadians.
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): That
is quite right, Mr. Speaker, and I am very much aware of that.
That is the reason I am protecting this process from the slams it
is receiving from the other side.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, we recently
learned that the members of dictator Suharto's entourage were
arrested, heavily armed, and even wearing commando fatigues.
My question for the government is the following: Does the fact
that these people feel so free to behave as they wish in Canada
not indicate that the Minister of Foreign Affairs went too far
in the guarantees he gave Mr. Suharto and his entourage that
nothing would be done to make his visit in any way unpleasant
for him?
[English]
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the security arrangements around the APEC conference
were the responsibility of the RCMP. The RCMP have a system to
do an inquiry into the actions of the RCMP. That is the inquiry
that is in play right now. It deals specifically with the kinds
of allegations being put. If we will allow them to do their job
I think the interests of Canadians will be served as was intended
when the PCC was struck.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, just as, in
our opinion, the Minister of Foreign Affairs went too far in
meeting the demands of Suharto and his gang, did not the Prime
Minister also go too far in his directives to the RCMP, which
authorized its officers, they claim, to arrest young Canadian
students merely wishing to exercise their civil rights before
they had even done anything?
[English]
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the security arrangements are the responsibility of the
RCMP and the RCMP are being investigated in the broadest possible
way by the public complaints commission. We will get to the
truth, as Canadians expect. This is an institution that was
struck by this House and I think it deserves the respect of this
House.
* * *
THE SENATE
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
for months now the Prime Minister has treated Ralph Klein and
Alberta's Senate election as if they were a joke. The final slap
in the face came last week when he appointed a senator just weeks
before a vote. The Prime Minister says he believes in a triple E
Senate. Really?
1435
Our candidates are here today. They are off and running. Can
the Prime Minister name one tiny thing that he has done since he
became Prime Minister to bring about real Senate reform, just one
thing?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I travelled through Canada and I went to Alberta during
the Charlottetown accord to ask Albertans to vote for the
Charlottetown accord so we could have an elected Senate. The
opposition I faced when I was there was from a bunch of
protesters from the Reform Party.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
just to refresh the Prime Minister's memory, the Charlottetown
accord was in the fall of 1992. He became Prime Minister in the
fall of 1993.
I will repeat my question in light of the fact that he
continues to talk about the Charlottetown accord which he knows
full well would never have given a triple E Senate.
Since he became Prime Minister in 1993, let him name for this
House and our Senate candidates here today one tiny thing that he
has done to accomplish real Senate reform.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, everybody knows that to really reform the Senate, not
just half baked propositions like this one, to have an elected
Senate, a triple E Senate, means that it would be equal across
the land and effective. We need real reform, which needs the
consent of the provincial governments. We cannot do it alone.
We had a great chance at the time of the Charlottetown accord
and the Reform Party blew it.
* * *
[Translation]
CANADIAN ECONOMY
Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): Mr. Speaker, as all
the private sector analysts are lowering their forecasts for
Canada's economic growth and Statistics Canada is telling us
that once again, in the month of August, the situation worsened,
the Minister of Finance and the Governor of the Bank of Canada
are the only ones saying that everything is fine.
Rather than rejecting all suggestions about stimulating economic
growth and ruling out all possibility of recession in 1999,
should the Minister of Finance not agree to the idea of a
special budget providing for tax cuts and increased social
transfers?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is
certainly our intention to cut taxes in the next budget, just as
we did in the last budget. However, it is certainly not our
intention to accept the Bloc Quebecois' suggestion.
If I may, I would simply quote Claude Piché, a journalist with
La Presse, who said in reference to the Bloc Quebecois' position
that, by recalling the Commons in an emergency session in the
middle of summer, “the government really could find no better
way to project an image of disarray and lack of planning. This
sort of spectacle will not help the dollar”. So much for the
suggestion of the Bloc Quebecois.
Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): Mr. Speaker, quote
for quote: the Governor of the Bank of Canada said this morning
that he had underestimated the effects of the monetary crisis.
I think the minister should take note. The minister was asked
to table a special budget providing for tax cuts and increased
social transfers as soon as Parliament resumed.
Does the minister realize that, if he does not act now, he will
be party to a recession in Canada within some ten months?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, once
again, I am not saying you should take my word for it. I would,
however, quote Vincent Marissal of La Presse, who wrote:
“Economists think that the cure proposed by the Bloc Quebecois
is worse than the disease affecting the loonie”.
* * *
[English]
THE SENATE
Mr. Rahim Jaffer (Edmonton—Strathcona, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, we know the Prime Minister has done nothing since he was
elected to bring us closer to a triple E Senate. When Premier
Klein tried, the Prime Minister insulted him and the whole
province of Alberta. The Prime Minister's excuse is he wants to
reform the Senate but elections just are not enough.
If he really does support Senate reform then where is the Prime
Minister's plan for a triple E Senate? Our plan is up there in
the gallery.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the election promoted by the Reform Party was so
ludicrous that neither the Tories federally or provincially, the
NDP federally or provincially, nor the Liberals federally or
provincially had a candidate because they knew it was just a
charade because that party is completely empty of new ideas.
1440
Mr. Rahim Jaffer (Edmonton—Strathcona, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, it is obvious the Prime Minister is not serious about
Albertans' concerns at all. I guess he expects Premier Klein to
snap to attention to all his pet issues while Albertans' dreams
go down the toilet.
I ask the justice minister, the so-called minister for Alberta,
what concrete steps is she taking to respect the wishes of
Albertans and create real Senate reform?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Constitution of Canada gives the prime minister the
authority to name senators. I was very happy to use this to name
more women than men to the Senate. I have named people of
different religions and different colours. I have given them the
chance to be in the other house.
I am here to defend the Canadian Constitution, to defend
tradition; a Quebecker, a Francophone defending a British
tradition.
* * *
[Translation]
MONTREAL CONVENTION CENTRE
Mr. Antoine Dubé (Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
action in the matter of the Montreal Convention Centre has
become urgent.
All of the business world is calling for the federal government
to do its share in the expansion project. With every passing
day, Montreal is at risk of losing conference business, and
meanwhile the Secretary of State says he is looking at an
alternative.
Since the Minister of Industry said there are no more funds
available, can the secretary of state responsible for regional
development tell us what alternative he is looking at, and what
deadline he has set for making a decision?
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Secretary of State (Economic Development
Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec), Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
at the risk of repeating myself, I join with my colleague, the
Minister of Industry, in saying that there is no vehicle
available at the present time for intervening in a project as
significant as the Montreal Convention Centre. There are similar
projects just about everywhere in Canada.
I would like to repeat, however, that a rather strong impression
is created by the fact that the Government of Quebec made no use
of any of the funding from the appropriate vehicle for such a
vital project, when this government has invested $630 million in
the province of Quebec via the Canada-Quebec infrastructure
program.
Notwithstanding this poor judgment by the Government of Quebec,
we shall make every effort to find alternative solutions, since
an important project is at stake.
* * *
PRESIDENT OF SOUTH AFRICA
Mrs. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, as all members of Parliament are already aware, the
President of South Africa is arriving today for an official
visit.
I would like to know what Canada intends to do to mark—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
1445
[English]
The Speaker: Now we will proceed with wonderful
Wednesday.
[Translation]
Mrs. Marlene Jennings: Nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, my question is
harmless enough.
As all members of Parliament already know, the President of
South Africa is arriving today for an official visit. I would
like to know what Canada intends to do to mark the exceptional
contribution made by Mr. Mandela to equality and democracy.
Hon. David Kilgour (Secretary of State (Latin America and
Africa), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, President Mandela's struggle for
human rights and the dignity of national reconciliation in his
country remains a source of inspiration for Canadians.
In welcoming Mr. Mandela to our country and bestowing on him the
Order of Canada, Canadians will have an opportunity to recognize
the exceptional importance of his work and his devotion to human
rights and to the well-being of South Africans and of citizens
the world over.
Tomorrow, President Mandela will address Parliament.
[English]
We will all have the opportunity to hear one of the democratic
giants of 20th century.
* * *
CANADA PENSION PLAN
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, yesterday the finance minister, when asked what he knew
about the firing of Canada's chief actuary, said he was
“informed afterwards”. That is not much of an answer since all
of Canada eventually found out.
Will the minister tell us if he knew before August 25, 1998,
that the chief actuary was to be fired? Yes or no.
Hon. Paul Martin (LaSalle—Émard, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have already answered that question, but I will do it again for
the benefit of the member. I am often informed of management
problems in the department except that in the case of people who
report to me I do not make such decisions.
I was informed in general terms some months earlier that the
superintendent had difficulties with Mr. Dussault over management
issues. On the weekend of August 22 I was informed by the
department that the superintendent intended to confront Mr.
Dussault about these issues. Three days later at a previously
scheduled meeting the superintendent informed me that he had
asked for Mr. Dussault's resignation the previous day. That was
the first time I had heard of that. Let me be clear—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Calgary—Nose Hill.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, with respect, I think this is a very important issue for
Canadians. We need to know what the finance minister knew and
when he knew it.
He was a seven year veteran in one of the top posts in this
bureaucracy who was protecting Canadians' interests in an
independent way. Just weeks before his major report was due he
was suddenly out the door.
This raises real suspicions in the mind of any reasonable
Canadian, so I would like the finance minister to continue to
inform the House fully about the circumstances of his firing.
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am delighted to do so. I did not give an opinion. I
was not asked for an opinion and I would not have given an
opinion had I been asked.
Human resources management issues are the exclusive domain of
the professional managers within the public service. I do not
make those. Mr. Dussault reports to the Superintendent of
Financial Institutions.
Mr. Speaker, in Canada we have separated politics from the
administration of the public service, so consider carefully what
the Reform Party is saying. It is suggesting that politicians
should influence personnel decisions within the public service.
That would lead to the politicization of the public service, and
I will not do that.
* * *
APEC SUMMIT
Mr. Svend J. Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, we wish the Prime Minister would avoid the
politicization of the RCMP in the same way.
1450
Canadians were appalled to learn that when our foreign minister
met with Indonesia's foreign minister before APEC last year he
apologized to him for the anti-Suharto poster campaign in Canada
and attacked the East Timor alert network.
Will the Prime Minister now apologize to all Canadians for this
disgusting sucking up to a third world dictator all in the name
of promoting—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Colleagues, I would ask all of you to be a
bit more judicious in your choice of words.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I believe members are going a bit far in their
accusations based on no facts at all, especially making a
statement like that, which a veteran of the House of Commons for
many years and an extremely respected person, the Minister of
Foreign Affairs, denied yesterday.
It is a shame to see the member making that accusation, just to
be sure he will be on TV tonight.
Mr. Svend J. Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, the document of the ambassador speaks for itself.
We have now learned that the RCMP planted a spy in the student
group APEC Alert before the APEC summit. Will the Prime Minister
explain to Canadians why the RCMP infiltrated this peaceful,
non-violent group, using the kind of tactics that Suharto uses
instead Canadian democratic values?
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I know the hon. member is aware of the role of the
public complaints commission. I know the hon. member is aware
that these issues are being investigated. I know he is aware
that if I were to express an opinion on this it would be called
political influence on my part, and I will not have it.
[Translation]
Ms. Diane St-Jacques (Shefford, PC): Mr. Speaker, my question is
for the Prime Minister.
Suharto's bodyguards needed the approval of the Minister of
Immigration to enter Canada. Once they got here, they
threatened to shoot Canadians.
Why did the Prime Minister not expel them from the country?
[English]
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I think it is vitally important that members opposite,
particularly members of the party that created the commission,
would respect its right to do its work and that we would not be
reacting to every piece of information as it comes along.
It is very important that we let this exercise continue because
Canadians deserve to know the truth.
[Translation]
Ms. Diane St-Jacques (Shefford, PC): Mr. Speaker, in case this
government does not know, I will inform it.
Suharto's army has killed millions of people in Indonesia.
These are the very soldiers they let into Canada.
When they asked the RCMP if they could shoot at the
demonstrators, why did the Prime Minister not have them expelled
from the country?
[English]
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, as I have said, the security arrangements around APEC
were the responsibility of the RCMP. It is those very
arrangements that are being investigated by a structure that was
put in place by the House and deserves our respect.
They are going to get to the truth and I wish members opposite
would let them do their job.
* * *
HEALTH
Mr. Gurbax Singh Malhi (Bramalea—Gore—Malton—Springdale,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of
Health.
The minister recently announced the launch of a series of
nationwide consultations on the future of the health protection
program in Canada.
Could the minister explain the full scope of these consultations
by outlining how he plans to strengthen and modernize our
capacity for protecting the health of all Canadians?
1455
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the process of renewing and strengthening the health protection
branch is well underway.
During the summer we published discussion documents which set
out the principles we want Canadians to consider. There are
public hearings being held now across the country. Winnipeg
tomorrow. Halifax earlier this month.
We are identifying a need for leading edge science in the health
protection branch. We want to make the process is more open so
that whether it is drug approvals or veterinary products
Canadians will understand the process by which we consider, weigh
risks and give approval or denial. We also appointed an arm's
length science advisory board.
* * *
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Howard Hilstrom (Selkirk—Interlake, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, in addition to the non-tariff trade barriers from South
Dakota, Americans have initiated anti-dumping action against our
beef, dairy and the transparency of the Canadian Wheat Board.
Yesterday the agriculture minister stood and told the House he
would take action under NAFTA and the WTO. Twenty-four hours
have elapsed. What NAFTA or WTO action has been taken?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the ambassador in Washington is meeting
with high level people in the United States today. We are making
it very clear to those in the United States that we will take
action if they do not fix this situation and bring their people
into line. We will follow the legal course that is available to
us through NAFTA and WTO.
* * *
[Translation]
SCRAPIE
Ms. Hélène Alarie (Louis-Hébert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question
is for the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food.
To date, 11,000 sheep have been killed in Quebec to prevent
scrapie. According to our information, the minister is
preparing to carry on and slaughter thousands more.
Instead of continuing the massacre, should the minister not stop
it, examine the whole situation and control the disease more
intelligently than by slaughtering entire herds?
[English]
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we are treating this disease the same way
that we treat all reportable diseases in Canada and in an
equitable way across the country.
The disease has to be treated in that way. We are doing it
exactly the way in which the advisory council of the chief
federation for Canada advised us and requested us to do. We will
continue to proceed on that and work with the industry and the
provincial government of Quebec in order to help the industry.
I would again request that the hon. member might ask the
minister of agriculture in Quebec to respond to the
correspondence from me.
* * *
APEC SUMMIT
Mr. Peter Mancini (Sydney—Victoria, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday and again today the Prime Minister said students with
complaints against the RCMP would have an opportunity to present
their views to the public complaints commission.
My question is for the solicitor general, and he should be able
to answer this one. Why was funding for legal counsel to the
students denied even after the federal court indicated funding
would be essential to assist the students in presenting their
case?
How can they tell their story, or is this something else the
solicitor general just will not have?
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, quite the contrary. Because the public complaints
commission represents the interests of Canadians, that was the
reason we did not want to offer support to hire lawyers. We do
not want this to become a court. We do not wish this to take on
an adversarial nature.
We have been assured by the public complaints commission that
these processes are done informally. It is not intended to be
adversarial. The students will have their opportunity to appear
before the agency that has been struck in their interest.
* * *
FISHERIES
Mr. Bill Matthews (Burin—St. George's, PC): Mr. Speaker,
individuals 53 and 54 years of age with 35 years of attachment to
the Atlantic fishing industry do not qualify for the government
post-TAGS early retirement program. People who are 55 with 10
years of attachment to the industry receive benefits.
Would the Minister of Human Resources Development devise a
formula of age plus attachment to the industry and redirect funds
from the $730 million post-TAGS fund to consider those people
with 30, 32 and 35 years of attachment to the industry and give
them—
The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Human Resources
Development.
1500
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opposition
member's question about this very difficult issue and indeed over
the early retirement package that we offered last June to
fishermen in Atlantic Canada. We are well aware that we had to
make very, very difficult decisions.
We have come with what I think is a fair and balanced package.
We have respected in our decisions the standard age of 55,
which has always been the standard age we have used for early
retirement packages.
We are also directing money from other essential elements to
give fishermen the tools they need to get on with their lives
and to do something else.
* * *
AGRICULTURE
Mr. John Harvard (Charleswood St. James—Assiniboia,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister for
International Trade.
Will the minister further update the House on efforts to stop
harassment by several U.S. states of Canadian trucks carrying
agricultural products across the line? What action is the
minister taking to force the Americans to respect existing trade
agreements?
Hon. Sergio Marchi (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as the Minister of Agriculture has stated
today and yesterday, the actions of the U.S. governors are both
wrong and irresponsible. As a result, the Government of Canada,
at all levels, has been active and aggressive in trying to
convince the federal government in the United States to intervene
and stop this unilateral action.
Our patience is not unlimited. That is why we will not be shy
to look at the NAFTA and the WTO which offer provisions.
We would rather have it settled between reasonable people, but
two can play at this game.
The Speaker: That brings to a conclusion our question
period for today.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[English]
INTERNATIONAL LABOUR ORGANIZATION
Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister
of Labour, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to an International
Labour Organization requirement for its member states to
introduce new ILO conventions and recommendations to the
competent authorities, I am pleased to submit two copies, in both
official languages, of the Canadian position with respect to
conventions and recommendations adopted in 1996.
* * *
[Translation]
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant
to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in both
official languages, the government's response to 12 petitions.
* * *
[English]
POINTS OF ORDER
PUBLIC WORKS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order concerning an
announcement made this morning by the Minister of Public Works
and Government Services.
1505
He made a statement outside this House concerning matters of
considerable concern to this exact House, namely the costs
associated with a multi-year renovation and restoration project
for the parliamentary buildings.
The government's reluctance to make this type of ministerial
statement in the House shows contempt for this place and it is
something we have seen in the past.
Keep in mind, as well, that this statement was made at a time
when most caucuses were sitting and members of parliament were
unable to attend.
This is the exact House that these renovations apply to. This
is also the House that occupies the most parliamentary space
during this restoration period.
We are members of parliament who are answerable to the public,
which does not always differentiate between the actions of the
ministry, the departmental officials or the membership of the
House of Commons.
The minister became involved in a very public dispute with a
senior official in his department. That senior official was
subsequently removed from the responsibility of this
parliamentary project, which has been the subject of considerable
debate, considerable criticism and rumour.
There are large chunks of the renovation which were in the
original budget that have now simply evaporated, so there are
massive costs still to come.
The minister owes it to the House to come to this House and give
a full public accounting.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The comments of the
hon. House leader of the Conservative Party are on the record. I
am sure the Speaker will consider them.
Now we will return to the daily routine of business.
* * *
INTERPARLIAMENTARY DELEGATIONS
Ms. Carolyn Parrish (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have the honour today to present, pursuant to Standing Order
34(1), in both official languages, the third and fourth reports
of the Canadian NATO Parliamentary Association which represented
Canada at the joint committee meetings of the North Atlantic
Assembly of the NATO Parliamentary Association.
The North Atlantic Assembly held its first defence and security,
economic and political committees in Brussels, Belgium,
February 15 and 16, 1998. The second meetings were held in
Madeira, Portugal, March 27 to 29, 1998.
As vice-chair of this committee it is a real honour and
pleasure for me to present these reports. It is my last official
act, as I will have to resign as vice-chair of the NATO
committee.
I think it is important to note that members of all parties who
serve on the NATO committee have done their part to assist the
Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Prime Minister in passing the
anti-personnel land mine proposal into law and getting countries
to sign on. We almost got the United States to agree.
It is my pleasure to present this report and my official duty to
do so.
Mr. Joe Comuzzi (Thunder Bay—Superior North, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, following the House rules I present, in both official
languages, the report of the Canada-United States
Interparliamentary Group held in Massachusetts between May 4 and
May 18, 1998.
We all realize the importance of our relationship with the
United States. I am particularly proud to report that we have
four ongoing committees that are working on issues which affect
both countries.
The most important issue that we have included in the report is
one that is bothering all Canadians, and that is with respect to
the United States immigration law, particularly section 110,
which would create havoc on all persons travelling to the United
States.
The importance of the issue is simply that the immigration law
in the United States was supposed to take effect on September 30,
1998. However, I can report that it will not take effect on
September 30.
It is presently before the conciliation committee in the
Congress of the United States. They will be resolving the issue
in the very near future. I am pretty sure that after that has
been resolved the issue which we fear on our border crossing
points will be resolved in favour of the Canadians who travel to
the United States on a daily basis.
That is one of the real achievements of the Canada-United States
Interparliamentary Group. We have several others on which I will
report at a later date.
* * *
1510
COMPREHENSIVE NUCLEAR TEST-BAN TREATY IMPLEMENTATION ACT
Hon. John Manley (for the Minister of Foreign Affairs,
Lib.) moved for leave to introduce Bill C-52, an act to
implement the Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
CANADA SMALL BUSINESS FINANCING ACT
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Industry, Lib.) moved for
leave to introduce Bill C-53, an act to increase the availability
of financing for the establishment, expansion, modernization and
improvement of small businesses.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
CANADA POST CORPORATION ACT
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-431, an act to amend the Canada Post Corporation
Act (mail contractors).
He said: Mr. Speaker, the bill that I am introducing today
would do one very simple thing. It would eliminate one clause in
the Canada Post Corporation Act which currently bars a group of
employees from free collective bargaining and from their right to
form a union. I am speaking about the rural route mail couriers
of which there are 5,000. They are the only group of workers
that I know of in this country who are specifically barred from
the right to free collective bargaining. By the simple
elimination of this one section of the act, it would solve that
problem and give these people that access.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
LABOUR MARKET TRAINING ACT
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-432, an act to provide for the establishment of
national standards for labour market training, apprenticeship and
certification.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the second bill which I am introducing
today concerns the creation of joint labour-management committees
to deal with labour market training on such matters as curriculum
development, national standards for entrance requirements and
national standards for certification in those skilled trades. It
speaks to a real demand from many industries and many industry
practitioners who have pointed to the need for national standards
now that labour market training has devolved to provincial
jurisdiction.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
1515
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
moved for leave to introduce Bill C-433, an act to amend the
Criminal Code (order of prohibition).
He said: I am indeed very pleased to have an opportunity to
present this private members' legislation, an act to amend the
Criminal Code respecting orders of prohibition as they presently
exist in the Criminal Code.
This bill would amend section 161 of the Criminal Code. If
passed, the bill would allow the courts to make an order of
prohibition prohibiting the offender from being in a dwelling
house where the offender knows or ought to know that a person
under the age of 14 is present, and the person having care or
custody of that child is not present.
At this time I would like to also pay special tribute to a
fellow Nova Scotian, Donna Goler, who brought this particular
matter to the attention of all members of parliament. Ms. Goler
is a survivor of sexual abuse and brought this loophole in the
Criminal Code to the attention of myself and others.
I hope that by tabling this bill, this House and this government
will act to adopt this measure to help prevent crimes of the most
heinous nature against children. I ask for the support of all
hon. members in passing this bill through the House.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
PETITIONS
BILL C-225
Mr. John Richardson (Perth—Middlesex, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I rise to present three petitions containing the names
of 247 constituents from my riding of Perth—Middlesex regarding
Bill C-225.
CRIME PREVENTION
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am
extremely pleased to present this petition on behalf of the
people of Lakeland constituency who ask for the repeal of Bill
C-68, and that the money being spent on this bill be redirected
to programs that are proven to be cost effective at reducing
crime and in improving public safety such as an increase in the
number police officers on the street and more effective crime
prevention programs.
MARRIAGE
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
have two petitions to present to the House today.
The first is signed by Patricia Scott and 54 others of North
Vancouver who ask parliament to recognize the concept of marriage
as only the voluntary union of a single, that is unmarried, male
and a single, that is unmarried, female.
They ask that we consider it to be the duty of parliament to
ensure that marriage as it has always been known and understood
in Canada be preserved and protected and therefore, that we enact
Bill C-225, and act to amend the Marriage Act.
Mr. Speaker, the second petition which is on the same matter is
signed by Eleonora Mares and 45 others from North Vancouver.
POST-TAGS EARLY RETIREMENT PROGRAM
Mr. Bill Matthews (Burin—St. George's, PC): Mr. Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36, I rise to present this petition on
behalf of approximately 8,700 people from Atlantic Canada who are
calling upon the federal government to make changes to its
post-TAGS early retirement program to devise a formula consisting
of age plus years of attachment to the fishing industry.
There are grave injustices and inequities in the present
program. People who are 53 and 54 years of age with 35 and 36
years of attachment do not qualify for the government's early
retirement program. Yet someone who is 55 years of age and with
8 to 10 years of attachment to the industry are eligible for
benefits.
This petition asks government to reconsider the early retirement
program and to devise a formula consisting of age plus years of
attachment.
NATURAL HEALTH PRODUCTS
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I have two
petitions to present today.
The first one is from both British Columbia and Alberta. It
asks parliament to support the Reform health freedom amendment
Bill C-307 which gives us broader freedom for natural health
products.
1520
HEPATITIS C
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the second
petition is primarily from Ontario and asks the government to
revisit the hepatitis C compensation issue to give fair
compensation to all those who received tainted blood in Canada.
FIREARMS ACT
Mr. Howard Hilstrom (Selkirk—Interlake, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I have a petition with over 500 names on it from my
riding, people all interested in the Firearms Act. They indicate
that of the offences committed, very few involve firearms and
that the millions of dollars in taxes that are spent on the
Firearms Act could be better spent in other areas. I present this
petition on behalf of those constituents.
* * *
[Translation]
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
ask that all questions be allowed to stand.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
* * *
[English]
MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, would
you be so kind as to call Notices of Motions for the Production
of Papers No. P-30 in the name of the hon. member for
Cariboo—Chilcotin and No. P-31 in the name of the hon. member
for Prince George—Bulkley Valley.
That a humble address be presented to His
Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this
House a copy of all Memorandums of Understanding (MOUs) between
(a) Environment Canada and U.S. Customs; and (b) Environment
Canada and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency relating to
intelligence and surveillance capacity concerning ozone depleting
substances.
Mr. Jim Pankiw: Mr. Speaker,
I rise on a point of order.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): We have a point of
order but first we will call the notice of motion and then we can
have the point of order.
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, with
respect to P-30 which requests certain memorandums of
understanding, there are no formal memorandums of understanding
between Environment Canada and U.S. Customs or the U.S.
Environmental Protection Agency relating to intelligence and
surveillance capacity concerning ozone-depleting substances.
I therefore ask the hon. member to withdraw his motion.
1525
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The Chair recognizes
the solicitor general.
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I suggest the motion be transferred for debate.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The motion is
transferred for debate pursuant to Standing Order 97(1).
Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Speaker, there is a second point.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Just a moment,
please. On a point of order, the hon. member for
Saskatoon—Humboldt.
Mr. Jim Pankiw (Saskatoon—Humboldt, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
I rise on a point of order relating to questions Q-78 and Q-79.
These questions have been on the Order Paper for over seven
months. On April 24 and June 10 I rose on points of order
regarding the delay.
I am asking for a third time. Could the parliamentary secretary
inform me as to when I can expect a response? I hope it will not
be the same response I have had on previous points of order where
he says they will come. I want to know when I will have an
answer.
Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Speaker, I do understand the
member's concern with respect to questions Q-78 and Q-79.
As you know, the government's record in responding to questions
is extremely good at the moment. I regret to say that I do not
have the answers to the member's questions as yet.
Mr. Dick Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I would like Motion No. P-31 to be called.
That a Humble Address be presented to His
Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this House
a copy of the Prime Minister's ethics code for ministers.
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
information sought by the hon. member is considered a confidence
of the Queen's Privy Council and in keeping with Beachesne's 6th
edition 446(2)(1) and s.69 of the Access to Information Act, I
ask that the hon. member withdraw his motion.
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, transfer for debate.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The motion is
transferred for debate pursuant to Standing Order 97(1).
Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Speaker, Notice of Motion for the
Production of Paper No. P-4 in the name of the hon. member for
Trois-Rivières and No. P-29 in the name of the hon. member for
Cariboo—Chilcotin are acceptable to the government and the
papers are tabled immediately.
That a Humble Address be presented to His
Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this
House a copy of his schedule since January 1, 1996, specifying:
(a) the number of official visits made in Canada, (b) the date
and location (by municipality and province) of the visits, and
(c) the planned schedule to December 31, 1997, with the same
data.
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of
all Memorandums of Understanding (MOUs) between: (a) Environment
Canada and Customs Canada; and (b) Environment Canada and the
Royal Canadian Mounted Police relating to intelligence and
surveillance capacity concerning ozone depleting substances.
Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Speaker, I ask that the other
Notices of Motions for the Production of Papers be allowed to
stand.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
COMPETITION ACT
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (for the Minister of Industry, Lib.)
moved that Bill C-20, an act to amend the Competition Act and to
make consequential and related amendments to other acts, be read
the third time and passed.
Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I will be leading off the debate for the government side
on the third reading of Bill C-20.
I wonder if I could have unanimous consent from the
House to share my time with the member for Ottawa Centre.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Does the hon. member
for Wentworth—Burlington have the unanimous consent of the House
to share its time on the first speech?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. John Bryden: Mr. Speaker, it is a real privilege to
lead off the debate on Bill C-20 for the government in
co-operation with the member for Ottawa Centre. This is a case
where the government is standing aside to give some backbench MPs
an opportunity to tell the House and the world that these
backbench MPs have had a chance to introduce amendments to Bill
C-20 that are of a substantial nature and which are going to have
a very important impact on Canadian society.
1530
I will now speak to my two amendments. Getting these amendments
into the legislation was not easy as I had to convince the
officials of the competition bureau and the justice department
that amendments could be created to address the concerns I had. I
had the encouragement of the industry minister throughout. When
it came to committee my amendments and the amendments of the
member for Ottawa Centre passed unanimously.
The first amendment to Bill C-20 changed the definition of
business in the Competition Act to include the raising of funds
for charitable or other non-profit businesses. This is a huge
leap forward in addressing the terrible problem all across the
country where various organizations are preying on Canadians,
chiefly senior Canadians, by making all kinds of promises to
raise money for charitable purposes.
Everyone has a horror story with respect to charitable and
non-profit organizations and sometimes organizations that are
neither. They get on the telephone or send out direct mail
solicitations and ask for money in return for promises they
cannot keep and sometimes promises they know are not truthful.
I will give just one example of the type of telemarketing pitch
that seniors are being subjected to. I will condense the script
from a telemarketer in Toronto called Univision Marketing Group.
The person calling whose name is whatever says “I am calling
for the Children's Emergency Foundation. I will only keep you
for a short minute or two. By the way, do you have children or
grandchildren or your own? Well, our foundation was started by a
group of Canadian mothers who wanted to do something about the
state of child poverty and hunger right here in our own country
and our province”.
The caller continues “We think as Canadians we have a
responsibility to look after our children, so we started
supporting child feeding programs in Ontario and across Canada.
These take place in schools at breakfast or lunch, in community
centres and in housing projects where some 5,000 are already
being provided with hot nutritious meals each day”.
We wonder whether that is so, but this is the real catch. “In
the light of the shocking facts of child poverty right here at
home, would you pledge a one time gift of $75 to feed 75 Canadian
school children?”
That is the essence of what my amendment addressed: when
organizations promise that 100%, 80% or whatever of the money a
person donates to a worthy cause actually gets to that cause,
while it was never intended to and will never get to that cause.
I could only trace the Children's Emergency Foundation to an
apartment building. It is a charity, however. As a result of
this amendment a complaint to the competition bureau will enable
it to undertake an investigation. If the investigation of this
type of claim shows there has been a wilful misrepresentation,
the organization or individual responsible for the
misrepresentation will be subject to the penalties of the
Competition Act. As an indictable offence that would involve
five years in jail and an unlimited maximum fine. Bill C-20 also
provides for summary conviction that could lead to a fine of some
$200,000.
For the first time non-profit and charitable fundraising comes
under legislation that provides for real penalty where there is a
deliberate attempt to get money from the public through false
representation.
It is amazing to think that non-profit organizations and
charities have never been subject to the Competition Act but it
is true.
If we split hairs it is possible to say that the Competition Act
could have been applied to charities and non-profit organizations
but it never has been. As a result of this amendment I suggest
that it will.
1535
Let us not make any mistake. I am not only talking about
charities and non-profit organizations. There are many
organizations out there which are neither and are raising money
by pitching all kinds of things to the Canadian public.
I will cite an example. The International Fund for Animal
Welfare is an organization based offshore. I cannot trace it as
a non-profit organization in Canada but it has an address in
Ottawa. This organization specializes in misrepresenting an
animal rights situation somewhere in the country, for example in
our north with respect to the seal hunt. The scheme is to put out
all this information saying that there are people out there
beating and killing seal pups and to send out beautiful
literature showing bleeding white coats. The reality is that it
is against the law to kill white coats. We do not do that here
in Canada.
However, they have no compunction. They are known worldwide.
They do the same thing when it comes to elephants in Africa and
their ivory. They have all kinds of other causes. All we know
about them is that they get about $36 million U.S. in revenues
from around the world by falsely raising these issues and then
conducting a mail out fundraising campaign showing animals
suffering and asking for donations. Their slogan is something
like “Remember, 80 cents on the $1 of whatever you send in”
will go toward saving the dog or the cat or whatever is in their
literature.
I suggest that my first amendment will address wilful
misrepresentation of facts in order to fundraise. We must
remember that the operative word is wilful. Accidental is one
thing but wilful is another. It does not matter whether it is a
bona fide organization in Canada; it still applies. Even if an
individual who misrepresents in order to raise funds from the
public will be caught by the Competition Act.
The amendment will also address partly the terrible problem that
has been in the news lately which has led to comments from the
solicitor general where we know there are certain charitable
organizations in the country that have become fronts for
terrorist activities abroad. We do know that this is a growing
problem and has been a problem for some time. Charitable
organizations or non-profit organizations raise funds for one
purpose in Canada and they turn out to be financing conflicts in
other parts of the world.
General legislation is needed to address that problem but at the
very least if organizations pitch one thing and then finances
something else abroad like terrorism they would come under the
Competition Act and would be subject to prosecution. If is a
partial first step.
I cannot stress enough that this is the first tool for the
government and the taxpayer to protect the consumer from people
who would misrepresent the way the money they are raising will be
spent abroad.
The second amendment deals with using foreign direct marketers
and telemarketers to market into Canada. What the amendment
states is that the act will include permitting a false
representations to be made. It addresses a problem whereby
hundreds of charities and other non-profit organizations in
Canada use foreign for profit marketers abroad, usually in the
United States, to do telemarketing or direct marketing in Canada.
I will give a little example. I have two fundraising letters in
my hand. The first one is from the Ontario Society for the
Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and the second one is from
OXFAM. If we examine these letters we see that they are printed
on exactly the same paper even though they are very different
organizations, have the same type face and the same ink. We also
see that the bulk mailing number on both envelopes is 05110874.
In other words, they have the same account with Canada Post.
1540
What is really happening is that the account is with a for
profit marketer that is doing this service for them. The reason
we have to make sure that the Competition Act catches
organizations that use offshore direct marketers to fundraise in
Canada is to make them responsible when these offshore
fundraising organizations misrepresent into Canada. This again
is an enormous step.
I will give an example of the problem. As is often with these
organizations in Canada, they do a deal with a direct marketer in
the United States for a profit. The idea is that the for profit
company, in exchange for using the name of the organization,
fundraises in Canada at no expense to the organization until it
has created a donor list that is so large that a profit is
created and all the expenses are met of the for profit
fundraiser. Then the balance goes back to the charity or
non-profit organization.
My first amendment will catch organizations that are doing
fundraising by using telemarketers and direct mail services and
are saying that the money is going to charity when in fact the
deal is that 100% of the donated money for which they are getting
tax receipts is going to the for profit organization in the
United States. None goes to charity until the for profit direct
marketer in the United States finally meets its expenses. Then a
bit of money goes to charity.
It is another abuse that exists in the charitable sector which
will be addressed by the first amendment and by the second
amendment where the for profit marketers in the United States
misrepresent in Canada, when they overstate how much money is
going to charity and when they overstate the facts in any way.
Again the operative word is wilful. Where an organization allows
this to be done in its name wilfully in the United States, the
Competition Act penalties will apply.
I do not want to be too long because I know the hon. member for
Ottawa Centre wishes to speak. However, just to give an idea of
the dimensions of the problem, I have here a list of
organizations in Canada which are using a for profit direct
marketer in the United States, which means they are getting
telemarketing services and direct mail from the United States:
$1000+ Lifetime Members of a TV Ministry representing 12,000
people, the Agnes McPhail Foundation, AIDS Committee of Toronto,
the Alberta Lung Association, the Alzheimer's Society of Ontario,
Amnesty International, the Animal Alliance of Canada, Arctic
Society of Canada, Arthritis Society, Asthma Society of Canada,
B'Nai B'rith, the Barbra Schlifer Clinic, BC Association for
Community Living and the BC Lung Association.
We must remember that they are giving to for profit
telemarketers and direct marketers in the United States the
privilege and the opportunity to earn money selling the
fundraising into Canada.
The list continues: Big Sisters of Ontario, the Canadian
Abortion Rights Action League, Canadian Association for the Deaf,
Canadian Blind Sports Association, Canadian Centre for Victims of
Torture, and Canadian Christian Heritage Donors involving 53,000
people. I am sure they would like to know the for profit
marketer in the United States that has their names has to give
them literature which at least is honest.
I will continue: the Canadian Civil Liberties Association,
Canadian Corporate Donors, Canadian Diabetes Association,
Canadian Environmental Defence Fund, Canadian Federation of
Humane Societies, Canadian Hearing Foundation, Canadian
Hemophelia Society, Canadian Hunger Foundation, Canadian Liver
Foundation, Canadian Paralympic Committee, Canadian Paraplegic
Association, Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society, Canadian
Peace Alliance, Canadian Wildlife Federation and Canadian Mental
Health Association. Why in heck can they not do their own
fundraising, for heaven's sake?
The list continues: Candlelighters Canada, Care Canada, Channel
17 Public Broadcasting, Child Find, CNIB, Council of Canadians,
Covenant House, Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of Canada, CUSO,
Cystic Fibrosis, David Suzuki Foundation, Developing Countries
Farm Radio Network, Doctors Without Borders, Earthroots,
Elizabeth Fry Society, Energy Probe and Epilepsy Canada.
It does go on and on. There is nothing wrong with using these
organizations but it is useful for members of the public to know
that when they get this mail in their mailboxes it is coming from
a for profit direct marketer in the United States.
We can go on. Friends of Canadian Broadcasting. One would think
they would be able to do it on their own. Greenpeace Canada,
Heart and Stroke Foundation Ontario, Help the Aged,
Homemakers magazine, Horizons of Friendship, the Humane
Society of Canada, the International Planned Parenthood
Federation.
1545
The International Fund for Animal Welfare. They do not even do
their own work on their own. Interval House, Kidney Foundation,
Kids' Help Foundation, learning disabilities, Leukaemia Research
of Canada, Lupus Canada, Match International, McMichael Gallery,
Media Watch, quite a group, Multiple Sclerosis Society, NAC,
which I think is the National Action Committee for the Status of
Women. I note it only has 5,000 members with this organization
in the United States, which is a little bit different from what
we are given to understand.
The National Association of Women and the Law, the National Gay
and Lesbian Rights Supporters, North York Women's Shelter,
Ontario Association for Community Living, Ontario March of Dimes,
Ontario SPCA, Ontario Special Olympics, Osteoporosis, Outil de
paix, OXFAM, the Pet Savers Foundation.
Planetary Society, Planned Parenthood Federation of Canada:
Pollution Probe, Project Ploughshares, the Red Cross of Ontario,
Ronald MacDonald House, Save the Children, Schizophrenia Society,
Scouts Canada, select Canadian religious donors. That is not a
charity. There are some 22,000 of them.
The Sierra Legal Defence Fund, Sistering, Ski Patrol, Society
for Manitobans with Disabilities, SOS Childrens Village, Spina
Bifida, St. John's Ambulance, St. Stephen's House, Toronto Dance
Theatre, Toronto Disarmament Network.
Toronto Humane Society, TV Ontario, UNICEF, United Nations
Association, United Way of B.C., United Way of Greater Toronto.
It is interesting that only these two United Way organizations
appear. I guess other United Way organizations deal with other
direct marketers in the United States.
Voter Education South AfricaCanada, Whale Adoption Fund, the
White Ribbon Campaign. We remember that. It was up here a
few years ago. Wildlife Preservation Trust Canada. That is
enough.
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise
to speak briefly on Bill C-20. In particular I would like to
speak on a whistleblowing amendment which the committee was
dealing with.
Before I do that I want to pay tribute to my colleague from
Nickel Belt who has been working with me on this issue for quite
some time. If not for his excellent work on this issue in the
very early stages, I do not think we would have been able to see
this amendment before the House as part of Bill C-20, legislation
which will hopefully sail through the House of Commons early this
afternoon.
I want to thank him because I know his constituents will be as
happy as my constituents and consumers all across the country
when they see that the government has taken action on important
issues dealing with consumer rights. It deals also with the
question of the ability of the consumer or a member of a
corporation or an organization to speak out when they see
something wrong taking place in their place of work or within
their organizations.
The amendment deals with everything under the Competition Act.
Any organization already covered by the Competition Bureau or by
a federal statute, this amendment deals with them.
The motivation behind it really has to deal with the question of
gasoline prices, the oil industry across the country as well as
with people who either work or have anything to do with those
types of industries.
It has three components to it. It is a whistleblowing
amendment. In other words, an employee or a retailer can speak
out when he sees something wrong.
In the past when we had a consumer, a worker or a retailer who
wanted to speak out they went before the Competition Bureau,
which remained confidential up to a point.
1550
At some point in the process that confidentiality cannot be
maintained because they will have to bring the name of the
individual forward before the court.
This legislation makes it imperative that the identity of the
individual who brings forward information to the Competition
Bureau remains confidential.
The other element of the proposal deals with prohibition. In
the past many retailers or employees of companies feared
reprisal. They were afraid that if they were to speak out and if
their employer found out these individuals would take action
against them and would at some point let them go.
This amendment prohibits employers or contractors from
dismissing or retaliating against someone who speaks out if that
person is under the belief that something wrong or something
illegal has taken place.
There is a third component to this proposal which deals with
offence and punishment. This amendment would make it a criminal
offence for an employer or a contractor to take action against an
employee because this employee or retailer has spoken out.
What this government is doing is sending a very strong message
across the country to those who are thinking about playing around
with the consumer and also to those who know of someone who is
doing something illegal. This government is telling those who
are trying to do something wrong that it is a criminal offence
and the government will take action against them. This government
is telling consumers and retailers who might be speaking out that
it will defend their right to speak out.
It is a great day for our democracy because now, for once and
for all, we can say we have another loophole that we have closed.
In the past we had many people who phoned our offices and told us
they could not speak out because of fear. This amendment deals
with this.
At the same time this amendment sends an unequivocal signal
from coast to coast to say that we want to see fairness in the
marketplace, we want to see transparency in the marketplace and
we want to see consumers protected in the marketplace.
This amendment would not have seen the light of day if not for
the assistance of my colleague from Nickel Belt as well as the
parliamentary secretary, the staff members of the department who
have co-operated at every level and the people in the Competition
Bureau who came forward and responded to questions that were
posed to them by members of the committee.
I want to say how delighted I was to have been able to join the
industry committee which has adopted this amendment unanimously.
I thank every member, including the chair, for a job very well
done. It crossed all the boundary lines of both sides of the
House and every one of my colleagues has supported it.
To that extent I want to say it is excellent news and I want to
tell my colleague from Nickel Belt congratulations, felicitations
and good luck. It is my hope that this bill will become law very
quickly, go to the Senate and receive royal assent so we can get
on with the business of this House to deal with other issues.
Mr. Rahim Jaffer (Edmonton—Strathcona, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to rise again on Bill C-20, an act to amend
the Competition Act and to make consequential and related
amendments to other acts.
My predecessor and colleague from Kelowna has given the bill
substantial consideration and has deemed the legislation to be
worthy of the support of members of this House. As the bill has
been on the table since 1996, I look forward to being a part of
facilitating its long overdue passage.
Given the bill's broad support within this House and among the
members of the business community, I do not consider it necessary
to use my full allotted speaking time.
The most important element of this legislation deals with
telemarketing. It is the protection of consumers against
telemarketing deception that has captured my interest in this
legislation.
1555
As telemarketing fraud is so often directed at seniors and other
vulnerable members of society, it is imperative that the
government act to provide the legal framework for dealing with
fraudulent telemarketers.
This bill provides very clear guidelines for professional
telemarketing conduct. First, telemarketers must identify who
they are representing. Second, they must disclose the price of
the services or products they are selling. Third, they must tell
why they are calling. Without these provisions a telemarketer is
given complete license to mislead the consumer.
By providing these guidelines legitimate telemarketers can be
given some protection against those deceptive telemarketers whose
conduct has brought their industry into disrepute. The
telemarketing business in Canada is a billion dollar industry.
Without adequate protection against fraud this industry will not
continue to grow. Legitimate telemarketers will not continue to
operate in an environment ruled by outlaws and frauds.
While I support the initiative to create a civil and criminal
law framework for telemarketers, I am very dubious about the
Competition Act. The Competition Act rests on the assumption
that the government can meddle and regulate its way into a free
market.
In his recently published book entitled The Myths of
Antitrust author Armentano wrote that trades of private
property are either voluntary or they are not. One cannot
legislate the free market or create competition. To have a free
market, the government must leave the markets alone. To have the
state make markets free is again a contradiction of terms.
Leaving the markets alone does not mean that the government
should ignore its duty to create laws that protect against fraud,
for instance as Bill C-20 does with regard to telemarketing. It
does not mean that the government should not work to build a
criminal and civil law framework that protects private property
and to ensure the integrity and sanctity of contracts. That is
exactly the role that government should play in a free economy.
Only if the government entrenches property rights in the
constitution will Canada's business environment strive. Only
when the cost of the regulatory burden is lifted from business
will new players be able to enter the market, creating more
competition. Only when the banking industry is deregulated will
new and innovative companies be able to find the financing and
the challenge those companies with substantial market share.
Only when the tax burden is reduced will companies think of
innovating and expanding.
These are some of the very fundamental problems that must be
addressed if Canada is going to foster a competitive marketplace.
These problems should be addressed before the government creates
more cumbersome and costly regulations.
I am reminded of the Nobel prize winning economist Dr. Friedman
who wrote that a monopoly can seldom be established within a
country without overt and covert government assistance in the
form or a tariff or some other device.
This government is a disease on the economy masquerading as its
own cure. It is the cause of uncompetitive markets, not the
solution. For instance, the government has created an environment
in Canada that has encouraged the creation of a banking
oligarchy. Instead of deregulating the banking industry to allow
for competition, it meddles further into the banking industry
with the Competition Act.
When Canadian small businesses cannot get adequate funding for
new innovations that will foster competition the government
justifies the need to create another government program called
the Small Business Loans Act. We can see how one government
intervention leads to many more until we are so far removed from
the free market that we cannot begin to understand the potential
for market based solution to public policy problems.
If the government ran a house cleaning service it would bill us
for air fresheners when all it needed to do was take out the
trash. If our house was cold the government would subsidize the
costs for new sweaters when all it needed to do was close the
door and shut out the draft.
The funny thing is the minister actually expects a pat on the
back every time he sprays around a little air freshener or buys a
few new sweaters. I will start patting the minister on the back
when he starts taking out the trash and closing the doors. I
will start patting him on the back when he starts understanding
the fundamentals of a strong economy.
If we examine it carefully, the mandate of the Competition Act
is a little strange. The entire purpose of being in business is
to drive your competitors out of business. Every entrepreneur
wants to capture more and more of the market share by providing a
better product at a better price than his competition. This
according to the Competition Act is illegal. It is called
anti-competitive pricing and dumping.
1600
Entrepreneurs eager to obey the minister should not try to outdo
their competitors by providing consumers a better price. They
should keep their prices and services at the same levels as their
competitors. Sorry, that too is against the rules. It is called
collusion.
Entrepreneurs should raise their prices far above their
competitors so that they are not guilty of anti-competitive
pricing or collusion. Wrong again. It is called price gouging.
Our competition laws are an unenforceable mess of
contradictions. I think if the members of this House give these
laws some honest consideration, they too will come to this
conclusion.
The Reform Party believes that the creation of wealth and
productive jobs for Canadians is best achieved through the
operations of a responsible, broadly-based, free enterprise
system in which private property, freedom of contract and the
operation of a free market are encouraged and respected.
Economic competition and the resulting prosperity will come only
as a result of a deregulated market and cannot be achieved by
government intervention.
As the critic for industry, I will be working with the private
sector to identify those obstacles to business being successful
and will not let this government continue to get the fundamentals
wrong with impugnity.
The minister will tell us that he is just trying to protect
Canadian consumers. This is simply not true. The minister
refused to remove the 6% tariff on imported automobiles and parts
despite the unfair burden this places on Canadian families.
He has helped to create a regulatory burden in Canada that costs
the equivalent of 12% of our GDP. That is money that comes
directly out of the pockets of average Canadians in the form of
higher prices for goods and services. The minister is an old
friend of the Canadian consumer.
I would also like to touch briefly on the amendments to merger
regulations. Again, while I question the legitimacy of the
Competition Act as it currently stands, I do support this bill
insofar as it simplifies the process by which uncomplicated
mergers can be processed.
This aspect of Bill C-20 makes a bad piece of legislation better
and it therefore has my qualified support. In fact, Bill C-20
achieves its goal of working to modernize the Competition Act. I
think this should be the starting point for reforming the act
rather than an end point.
I would like to conclude my remarks by reminding this House that
there are real people outside these walls who are affected by
what we do. There are consequences, seen and unseen, that these
people will have to contend with if we do not engage in thorough
and thoughtful debate.
It is the standard of living of Canadians that I will keep in
mind throughout my term as opposition critic for industry. I
will never remain silent while this government uses the pay
cheques of Canadians to play politics. I will never remain
silent while this government solely creates an environment in
Canada that is stifling and suffocating for small and large
businesses.
Bill C-20 makes some very important amendments to the
Competition Act and, while I have some very serious concerns with
the act itself, the amendments put forth in this legislation
deserve our support.
[Translation]
Mr. Antoine Dubé (Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
as the Bloc Quebecois representative on the Standing Committee
on Industry, I am pleased to take part in the debate on third
reading of Bill C-20.
The position I present today has been drawn up in conjunction
with the hon. member for Mercier, who also sits on that
committee. As many are aware, she has analyzed the matter in
great depth and looked at every aspect of this bill, which as a
number of hon. members have admitted, is a highly complex one
and not very accessible to the average citizen.
Let us recall that the purpose of Bill C-20 is to amend the
Competition Act and to make consequential amendments to other
acts, yet all those who have spoken on it have focussed on
deceptive telemarketing. Why? Because Bill C-20 contains a
number of technical proposals which would not particularly
fascinate the general public, with the exception of the ones on
fraudulent telemarketing, because telemarketing is a sign of our
times and a timely topic.
1605
We are becoming aware of the increasing frequency of fraud in
this area, not only in Canada, but pretty well everywhere else
in the world. Now that there is cut-rate long-distance calling,
telemarketing can be done across borders.
For the Liberal government, this bill offers an opportunity to
pull a fast one, to cover up one more incidence of interference
in provincial jurisdictions, those of Quebec in particular. We
have our own Civil Code and the Government of Quebec has already
put into place a number of legislative and regulatory means, the
Office de la protection du consommateur in particular, to
protect the consumer from this type of abuse.
Voting against this bill puts us at risk of being seen as
opponents of any regulation of fraudulent telemarketing,
something that already affects thousands of people who are not
well-off, the elderly in particular.
Voting for Bill C-20 means that we are making radical changes to
the Competition Act, and in our opinion the consumer will suffer
as a result.
I believe a number of MPs have fallen into this trap, with the
possible exception of the NDP members. For that I congratulate
them. They looked at the interests of consumers in establishing
their position. I thank them for supporting most of the
amendments we have proposed.
To avoid having to make an impossible choice, the Bloc Quebecois
proposed amendments such that any progress in the control and
criminalization of deceptive telemarketing would not be to the
detriment of other aspects of competition.
As usual, the Liberal government has declined to support them,
probably so that its representatives would not look like they
were remiss. I again pay tribute to the support of NDP members.
I will quickly review the various motions. Yes, we are in
favour of a legislative framework for telemarketing activities
so that the reputation of this kind of commercial activity does
not suffer because of a few dishonest individuals.
To that end, we think that Bill C-20 should revert to section 52
of the present Competition Act.
Although at first glance the amendments contained in Bill C-20
appear minor, closer examination reveals that they represent a
major change in the scope of the Competition Act.
The criminal provisions in section 52 would now apply only to
representations that were false or misleading in a material
respect—in this regard, I would point out that there has been no
legal definition of what is meant by a material respect—, but
which will now have to be proven to have been made knowingly or
recklessly.
Is such a provision evidence of any real desire to have this
legislation protect a swindled consumer? It means that the
requirements for establishing guilt are no longer the same.
How are we going to tell the elderly that, even if they continue
to be badly served by this law, there is ultimately nothing we
will be able to do, because it will often be impossible to prove
that the false and misleading representations were made
knowingly and recklessly? Will a lie detector be used to
determine whether individuals' intentions were bad or whether
they were perfectly aware of the consequences?
In a telemarketing operation, for instance, the bosses may know,
but do the employees? These are sometimes large outfits. At
this level, the case law on similar provisions in other
legislation shows that it is very difficult to prove.
1610
When it is impossible to prove the intent to mislead, the person
who intended to mislead may not be cleared, but they are not
charged and there is no follow-up. This is a serious and
significant problem. Legislation has to be good. We know it
has to be fair and equitable, but it must also be enforceable.
We think this law will be hard to enforce, since it involves
intent. It is paradoxical. The focus on intent is a bit of a
snow job, since in practice it is just about impossible to prove
somebody's bad intentions.
Bill C-20 permits judicial authorization for unapproved
interceptions of private communications in the course of an
investigation in cases of conspiracy, bid-rigging and deceptive
telemarketing. This opens the door a little more to electronic
bugging. The issue here again is intent. When it is thought
that an individual is guilty, more sophisticated bugging is
carried out.
There is some contradiction in the fact that the bill permits
the competition bureau to have this powerful investigative tool
while it decriminalizes many of the offences under the act, in
order, it appears, to lighten the system. They want to
decriminalize these offences so they can impose fines, which are
not specified in the bill but will no doubt be spelled out in
the regulations.
I note that the new commissioner—since the director of the
competition bureau will now be called a commissioner—can, on
his own, determine whether an individual must appear in court
and set a 48 hour time frame. Within this period, businesses
can reach an agreement with him. This is another aspect we
cannot accept: the considerable powers given the new
commissioner.
We also wanted to include the Internet in the provisions of the
law to avoid its becoming quickly outdated. We were told that
the Internet is less interactive and therefore people contacted
can easily cut short communications.
There is, however, one thing I do not understand. Does false
and misleading information that causes an individual to buy a
product become excusable because it is transmitted on the
Internet?
Unfortunately, by rejecting the inclusion of the Internet in the
scope of Bill C-20, the Liberals are preventing this bill from
being enforceable or effective.
I must, however, state that I did note some degree of
receptivity on the part of the parliamentary secretary at the
report stage with respect to our amendments. I hope he was
sincere about the possibility of bringing in corrections with
future legislation, and I believe he was.
When one thinks that the standing committee spent half its time
last year focussing on the Year 2000 bug, it is difficult to
grasp that no thought has been given to the Internet, which is
going to be more and more a part of everyone's daily life.
The hon. member for Portneuf, a specialist in computers and all
telecommunications matters, has just been telling me that,
according to his information, 30% of Quebec families, and
probably of Canadian families as well, are already connected to
the Internet. This is already a reality.
Some people may think the Internet is a complicated affair that
requires costly computers and gadgets, but my colleague also
told me that a person can use a little box that costs about $400
to hook up to a phone line, and then access the Internet through
the television set. That is the way of the future. I know that
the millennium bug is close at hand, but I think that all the
problems associated with the Internet should have been
addressed.
1615
We wanted to balance the power Bill C-20 gives to the director of
the competition bureau. In the bill as it stands, only the
future commissioner may ask the tribunal whether someone engaged
or is engaging in reviewable conduct. That is a lot of power
for one person. In the past, people could file complaints and
the final decision was left to the tribunal.
Now, more power is being given to the director of the
competition bureau, who will now have the title of commissioner,
and he, and he alone, will decide whether or not it will go to
the tribunal. We think that this is leaving a great deal of
power in the hands of one non-elected individual.
We are not questioning his competence—that is not the issue—but we
feel this leaves a lot of power in the hands of one person.
I now know why the Liberal government wanted to take this route.
It wanted, of course, to protect its own interests, which is
fine, but it also wanted to acquire greater powers, as I
explained, over Quebec in particular, which, as people know, has
a civil code, unlike the other provinces in Canada, and an
agency to protect consumers with respect to such things as
telemarketing.
Like members of the New Democratic Party, we think that the
reason the government and Liberal members are introducing this
bill has very little to do with their concerns about consumers.
We think that competition should be at the heart of this bill,
and we do not think that it is. That is why members of the Bloc
Quebecois will be voting against the bill.
It needs a lot of improvement.
We are also unhappy that all the amendments we proposed were
rejected. The Liberal member who just spoke, and his colleague
as well, was pleased that, after trying for months, apparently,
he managed to convince the Liberal majority to pass his
amendment about whistleblowers. We supported it too, but we
see, and this is sometimes a bit discouraging, that the
government is very reticent, even intolerant. It almost never
passes amendments from the opposition parties, not just from the
Bloc Quebecois, purely so that it can give the impression that
it has anticipated everything, that it has analyzed all aspects
of a bill and its consequences. But we do not think this to be
the case, quite the contrary.
It is odd. The Liberals in opposition swore they would throw
out the free trade agreement, because it was worthless. We know
what happened. The free trade agreement was kept. The same
thing happened with the elimination of the GST. In the words of
the Prime Minister—Quebeckers will not have any trouble
understanding—he talked of scrapping the GST. However, nothing
happened.
I recall as well that the Liberals said they would not be going
after the disadvantaged. They blamed the Conservatives for
doing just that. I recall a letter from the Prime Minister, when
he was the leader of the opposition, which expressed his horror
at the treatment by the former Conservative minister, Mr.
Valcourt, of the unemployed with cuts to unemployment insurance.
However, we saw what they did later on. They made more cuts;
they went even further.
They paid the price, in the Maritimes, for example, as we know.
Today, however, the Liberal Party has left these concerns far
behind. It too used a miracle marketing approach to permit
certain businesses to profit at consumers' expense. However,
the Liberal government can prove that it honoured its promises
knowingly and without concern for their consequences.
This is why the members of the Bloc Quebecois will oppose this
bill, whose objective was laudable, nonetheless.
1620
The bill's lack of clarity will make it hard to enforce and,
ultimately, prevent it from truly protecting the interests of
consumers.
[English]
Mr. Chris Axworthy (Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, Bill C-20 can easily be divided into two parts.
The first part deals with telemarketing fraud and the
significant consequences which have befallen many Canadian
consumers at the hands of those who would defraud them of
significant sums of money through the telephone. Like all other
members of this House, New Democrats fully support the thrust of
the telemarketing fraud provisions. There are things we would do
differently and I will raise them in a minute. As my colleague
from the Bloc Quebecois has indicated, mostly it has to do with
enforcement and the seriousness with which we take the
enforcement of these crimes.
The second part of Bill C-20 is much more troublesome. It deals
with basic aspects of competition, with offences committed by
businesses to further their economic aims. This includes the
various misleading, fraudulent and deceptive practices they
pursue as well as some matters dealing with mergers. It is that
part which falls short of what Canadians need.
I will talk briefly about the telemarketing fraud provisions. We
have all had an opportunity to speak on this question in the
past. I am sure we have all heard from constituents who have been
cheated out of considerable numbers of dollars by these fraud
artists.
I can think of one couple in particular who responded to the
heavy duty pressure from a telemarketing operation. That couple
handed over some $10,000 or $12,000 in response to this pressure.
These senior citizens could ill afford $500 let alone $12,000.
We might ask how could that ever take place. As we know, the
telemarketing fraud operators prey on the most vulnerable members
of society. They make extravagant claims which we might not
accept but which many others do. Those operators have made a lot
of money in the process.
We all know the plight of many who have been bilked for
thousands of dollars and the apparent ease with which these fraud
artists continue their work over and over again. They work for
different companies under different names but use the same
offices with the same telephone equipment. They have basically
thumbed their noses at the law and at Canadians over a very long
period of time.
Project Phonebusters is a relatively small operation headed by
Barry Elliot, an OPP officer. It has essentially the sole
responsibility of chasing after these guys across the whole of
Canada. This small unit is not funded well enough of course. It
does not have enough people to pursue these claims in a timely
way. Consequently the situation in Canada is we have not been
enforcing our laws seriously enough. Had we been more serious
enforcers, we would have saved many Canadians many thousands of
dollars.
It is incumbent upon the solicitor general as the minister
responsible for the RCMP to take a leadership role in fighting
this fraud at the national level and to ensure that there are
more RCMP officers engaged in this activity. Project
Phonebusters and Barry Elliot need more help to do an even better
job. They have done quite a remarkable job with very limited
resources.
There is an obligation on the part of the Government of Canada
following the provisions in Bill C-20 which deal with
telemarketing fraud to actually put some resources where its
mouth is. The government should not just pass legislation in the
hope that something will improve. It should rigorously and
completely enforce the legislation and commit more resources to
it.
1625
I also want to commend my colleague for
Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière for proposing to the government
some significant changes which would have also protected many,
many Canadians.
We know about the issue dealing with the Internet. We know that
this is just the beginning of an incredibly important market for
commercial transactions. Many, many people have already begun to
do business on the Internet, whether it is the buying of stocks
and bonds, holidays, or other goods and services. We have all
probably used the Internet for these purposes.
Technological advances will ensure that the Internet is more
secure and safe and that we can use our credit cards on the
Internet without fear of incurring bills that we were not
intending to incur. Once all of that technology is in place, and
it is just around the corner, we will see a huge burgeoning of
trade on the Internet.
The member for Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière who was trying to
move the government to take this matter seriously made some very
good points in proposing that the Internet be added to this
section. The argument was that it did not quite fit within
telemarketing.
It does not fit perfectly but it does not fit badly either. We
have a new form of marketing which is based on technology. It is
not all that different from telemarketing. There is the one
element that a person is not on the line forcing someone to make
a decision but the mechanism of the Internet also makes it very,
very attractive and persuasive.
I would have hoped that the government would have taken note of
these suggestions. I know the parliamentary secretary is very
diligent in these matters. I hope we can do more than hope that
the parliamentary secretary will help us, that we will see some
movement to deal with some legislative action after proper study
on the question of the Internet. He is nodding his head so I am
sure that is what will happen.
The government is making a fundamental mistake regarding the
competition provision. It has simply not regarded the importance
of having a fair and fully competitive market so that not only
consumers are protected but legitimate, honest businessmen and
businesswomen are protected too. That part I cannot accept. It
is not because of what is in it; it is mostly because of what is
not in it. It should have been made tougher, not weaker. We
will therefore be voting against this bill although we are very,
very supportive of the telemarketing fraud provisions.
Mr. Jim Jones (Markham, PC): Mr. Speaker, it is my
pleasure to speak on a bill that is important to the success of
business competition in Canada, a bill that introduces amendments
that will modernize regulations for Canadian business
environments.
The Progressive Conservative Party is generally pleased with
Bill C-20 and its intentions. Specifically, the time has come to
aggressively respond to the ever growing problem of telemarketing
fraud.
In recent years total telemarketing sales in the United States
and Canada have exceeded $500 billion per year. While most
telemarketing activities are legitimate, unfortunately some are
not.
It is those initiatives I am concerned about. The report of the
Canada-U.S. Working Group on Telemarketing Fraud highlights
that telemarketing has become one of the most pervasive and
problematic forms of white collar crime in Canada and the United
States.
It has been estimated that telefraud cost Canadians in excess of
$60 million in 1995.
This figure ballooned to over $75 million in 1996. Worst of all,
in many cases these frauds are committed against the elderly and
those who least can afford the losses.
1630
It is estimated that this form of crime accounts for as much as
10% of the total volume of telemarketing. In Canada that would
mean $400 million annually. Studies show that those targeted are
the vulnerable and the lonely in society.
Unfortunately that equates to millions of dollars from the
pockets of many of our seniors, the very same seniors who are
experiencing lower and lower GIC or guaranteed income supplement
payments and old age security benefits.
We believe that the new crime offence of deceptive telemarketing
is a proper response to this activity. The acts of these scam
artists are hurting the legitimate telemarketing industry that
created employment for thousands of Canadians. Today we begin
fighting back. Five years in prison and fines at the discretion
of the courts should be enough of a deterrent to these would-be
fraudsters.
As we know the promotion of competitive markets is of
fundamental importance to today's economy. Competition
stimulates innovation and growth in jobs, provides businesses and
consumers with competitive prices and product choices, and
increases the average standard of living in society.
Without a modern competition law Canadian businesses may
encounter anti-competitive barriers to their entry or expansion
in their markets. They may find it difficult to source input at
competitive prices or they may encounter other refrains in their
ability to remain competitive.
Bill C-20 proposes amendments to the Competition Act, an act
that strives to guide businesses in a fair and equitable way. It
is time to bring this act up to date with contemporary business
practices. Canada needs a legal framework which supports up to
date competitive business practices. This framework is an
essential contribution to sustaining the competitive strength of
the private sector.
Bill C-20 was reviewed exhaustively by the Standing Committee on
Industry. As a result of these hearings my party believes that
we have an acceptable response to many of the concerns of
companies operating within the Canadian marketplace.
Notably we are pleased with the intent of the bill in the area
of misleading advertising. Bill C-20 represents the beginning of
an important principle as it applies to misleading advertising.
Specifically with this legislation the Competition Act will be
stressing the importance of compliance over punishment.
The government said the criminal sanctions were an incomplete
response to false advertising. On this point we agree with the
government.
The drawback includes the stigma attached to the criminal
process; the inability to stop misleading advertising quickly;
and the cost, time and resources needed for a successful
prosecution. The Retail Council of Canada believes the
availability of a civil offence will result in fairer and more
effective enforcement and will recognize the true nature of many
of the offences which are not done with any criminal intent.
Because of this move Bill C-20 should be able to achieve its
goal of a quicker and more efficient process leading to
compliance. We in the Conservative Party believe that the time
test and volume test provisions of the bill are a fair response
to the issues of regular price claims. Retailers will no longer
be able to make claims about the regular price of a product
unless that price was charged on a substantial volume of sales
over a substantial period of time.
Canadians have shown a preference to sales and sale priced
items. The bill aims to clarify what is a sales item and how a
sales price is established. Claims about regular prices and
related savings can be powerful marketing tools. However, both
retailers and consumer groups say that the current law is unclear
on what constitutes a regular price.
My party will be supporting the bill but that is not to say we
are completely satisfied with all its provisions. The business
of mergers was not satisfactorily dealt with in the bill. The
threshold for mergers was not raised to $500 million from the
existing $400 million as has been requested by several witnesses.
Simple inflation would have dictated that this was a reasonable
request. It also would have brought the act in line with the
Investment Canada Act which contemplates an annual increase to
reflect inflation.
I have spoken to several interest parties and groups that have
expressed their concern about the bill. They and the PC Party
see the need to update the bill to contemporary practices.
We acknowledge that there are several discrepancies.
1635
Businesses call for change that will bring the act more into
line with current market practices. They also want the intention
of parliament to be clear. They stress that greater clarity
regarding the intent of the law is needed by both retailers and
consumers, their customers.
The definition of telemarketing should be clearer. What exactly
does telemarketing constitute? Bill C-20 tells us that
telemarketing is the practice of using interactive telephone
communications for the purpose of promoting directly or
indirectly the supply or use of a product and for the purpose of
promoting directly or indirectly any business interest.
The Retail Council of Canada would like to see a clearer
definition of what constitutes telemarketing. The Canadian
Chamber of Commerce also wants a clearer description of the term
interactive. So too was the recommendation from the Canadian Bar
Association. That means putting a clear definition in the
legislation. Unfortunately this was not changed in the committee
process.
The Retail Council of Canada also points out that the wiretap
provisions have had relatively little public discussion and were
not part of the report of the consultation panel. The issue of
wiretapping should be of great concern to all Canadians. There is
some uncertainty as to how this might be applied.
The Competition Bureau tells us that it intends to seek
permission to wiretap only in cases of egregious behaviour.
However, this is a way to capture this focus in the law.
My party would liked to have seen this provision opened up to
more public input. The legislation needs to include just how and
what are misleading claims when it comes to telemarketing. It is
simple for the government to say that telemarketers cannot make
any false or misleading claims that would influence a customer to
buy a product. However, stringent guidelines should be set to
stop this activity.
We would like to see a more detailed plan on how the government
plans to coordinate efforts with the United States on
telemarketing fraud. Lack of coordination only puts a damper on
effective cross-border enforcement. Co-operation and strategy,
education and prevention need to be looked at. The PC Party
would encourage the government not to jeopardize our relationship
with our largest trading partner on this issue. Let us give this
legislation all the teeth possible.
If Canadian operations are crossing borders into the pockets of
United States citizens illegally, we must put a stop to it. Bill
C-20 is a good first step but is not all encompassing on this
issue.
Evidence shows that telemarketing fraud is a serious economic
crime problem. Immediate and effective steps need to be taken.
This means aggressively stopping those operators who insist on
choosing targets that are out of province or in another country
simply because they know police authorities have difficulty
dealing with victims in other jurisdictions. Lack of
coordination is an obstacle to effective cross-border
enforcement.
Through education, prevention and a strong strategy, notorious
operators can be shut down. As long as the government seeks to
achieve this the PC Party will back it up.
I do not agree that the Internet should have been included in
the bill because proper consultation was not done with all
interested parties. I know that the industry minister is well
aware of the high tech industry and the fast movement of the
Internet. I think over the next year or so we will be looking at
incorporating Internet into the Competition Act. However this
was not appropriate without consultation.
In spite of its shortcomings, the PC Party will be voting in
favour of Bill C-20.
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order
38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight
at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for
Halifax West, Aboriginal Affairs; the hon. member for New
Brunswick Southwest, Health.
[English]
Mr. Walt Lastewka (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Industry, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank the members who spoke
this afternoon and the members of the industry committee who
toiled for many hours on the bill.
Although we come from different parties I believe the debate was
fruitful and the bill we have before us today is very valuable
especially for seniors who get caught in many scams and by
misleading advertising.
1640
I thank all parties for their contributions on the industry
committee with regard to the bill. It was very important to the
Minister of Industry, and I thank them for their debate at first,
second and third readings and when it was in committee.
The Deputy Speaker: Is the House ready for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Deputy Speaker: The House has heard the terms of the
motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Deputy Speaker: All those in favour of the motion
will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Deputy Speaker: All those opposed will please say
nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Deputy Speaker: In my opinion the yeas have it.
And more than five members having risen:
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: Call in the members.
And the division bells having rung:
The Deputy Speaker: At the request of the chief government
whip, the division is deferred until 5.15 p.m. this afternoon.
[English]
SUSPENSION OF SITTING
Mr. Bob Kilger (Stormont—Dundas, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise on a point of order. The government is not going to bring
forward any other business for the rest of this day. We would
ask for consent to suspend the workings of the Chamber until 5.15
p.m.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to suspend
the sitting of the Chamber until 5.15 p.m., at which time the
bells will sound for the 15 minutes required for the vote at 5.30
p.m.
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(The sitting of the House was suspended at 4.43 p.m.)
1710
SITTING RESUMED
The House resumed at 5.14 p.m.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Order, please. It being
5.15 p.m., the House will now proceed to the taking of the
recorded division on the motion at the third reading stage of
Bill C-20.
Call in the members.
1745
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
| Adams
| Anders
| Anderson
|
Assad
| Augustine
| Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
| Bailey
|
Baker
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
|
Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
|
Benoit
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
|
Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
|
Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brison
|
Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
| Byrne
|
Cadman
| Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
|
Carroll
| Casson
| Catterall
| Cauchon
|
Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
| Chatters
|
Clouthier
| Coderre
| Cohen
| Comuzzi
|
Copps
| Cullen
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
|
Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
| Dromisky
|
Drouin
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duhamel
| Duncan
|
Easter
| Elley
| Epp
| Finestone
|
Finlay
| Fontana
| Forseth
| Fry
|
Gagliano
| Gallaway
| Gilmour
| Godfrey
|
Goldring
| Goodale
| Gouk
| Graham
|
Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Grose
| Guarnieri
|
Harb
| Harris
| Hart
| Harvard
|
Harvey
| Herron
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
|
Hilstrom
| Hubbard
| Ianno
| Iftody
|
Jackson
| Jaffer
| Jennings
| Johnston
|
Jones
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Keddy
(South Shore)
|
Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
| Kerpan
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
|
Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Konrad
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lastewka
| Leung
| Lincoln
| Longfield
|
Lowther
| MacAulay
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Manning
| Marchi
|
Mark
| Marleau
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Massé
|
Matthews
| Mayfield
| McCormick
| McGuire
|
McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McNally
| McTeague
|
McWhinney
| Meredith
| Mifflin
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Muise
|
Murray
| Myers
| Nault
| Normand
|
Nunziata
| Obhrai
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| Pagtakhan
|
Pankiw
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Penson
| Peric
| Peterson
| Phinney
|
Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Pratt
| Price
|
Proud
| Provenzano
| Ramsay
| Redman
|
Reed
| Reynolds
| Richardson
| Ritz
|
Robillard
| Saada
| Schmidt
| Scott
(Fredericton)
|
Scott
(Skeena)
| Sekora
| Serré
| Shepherd
|
Solberg
| Speller
| St. Denis
| Steckle
|
Stewart
(Brant)
| Stinson
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
|
Strahl
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
|
Torsney
| Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
|
Vellacott
| Volpe
| Wappel
| Wayne
|
Whelan
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
| Wilfert
|
Wood – 201
|
NAYS
Members
Alarie
| Asselin
| Axworthy
(Saskatoon – Rosetown – Biggar)
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
|
Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
| Bigras
| Brien
|
Canuel
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
| Dalphond - Guiral
|
Davies
| de Savoye
| Debien
| Desjarlais
|
Desrochers
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
| Dumas
|
Earle
| Fournier
| Gagnon
| Gauthier
|
Girard - Bujold
| Guay
| Guimond
| Laliberte
|
Laurin
| Lefebvre
| Lill
| Loubier
|
Mancini
| Marceau
| Marchand
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
|
McDonough
| Ménard
| Mercier
| Nystrom
|
Perron
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Plamondon
| Robinson
|
Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
| Solomon
| Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
|
Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Vautour
| Venne
|
Wasylycia - Leis – 53
|
PAIRED
Members
Folco
| Lalonde
| Rock
| St - Hilaire
|
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare the motion
carried.
(Bill read the third time and passed)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The House will now
proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business as
listed on today's order paper.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[English]
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby,
Ref.) moved that Bill C-258, an act to amend the Criminal Code
(judicial review), be read the second time and referred to a
committee.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I begin today by expressing my delight in
being back in the House of Commons after the summer recess.
The summer provided me some chance to review what issues my
constituents are most concerned about. One of the things they
speak about is the economy. Today they are concerned about the
falling dollar and the problem of future economic prospects.
They see Canada for sale at fire sale prices and they are worried
that draconian measures might have to be taken. They are
concerned they will be paying out of their own pockets for this
downturn in the economy.
1750
They know that a large part of this crisis is due to a
government that spent months sitting on its hands while the
loonie was falling. It just did not quite know what to do.
We all know that the Liberals are really not good financial
managers and that the international community has rendered its
judgment on that point, a very negative judgment.
The economy is foremost in the minds of my constituents in New
Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby and I am certain that it is
foremost in the minds of every Canadian. Almost in the same
breath those who have spoken with me mentioned law and order and
security as a very close second. They wonder if they are safe on
the streets. Can they leave a window open all night long? Will
their children be safe to and from school. My constituents are
very passionate on these issues. They are passionate because
they realize that no family, no one is immune from crime in
Canada.
In my part of the country there is a divide between those who
live from the streets and those who are trying to clean up the
streets.
Some in this House may have read in the newspapers last week of
the idea in Vancouver of having what you call in the vernacular
shooting galleries, legal hangouts to do drugs. Certainly we can
do so much better than this.
There is a proposal to open up a building where heroin addicts
and others can congregate to get a fix. The proposal is to give
them clean needles and in essence monitor that they do not
overdose on drugs. It would not surprise me if the addict there
will soon be provided with the drug itself from the government.
Proponents say this is going to clean up the streets and make
the streets safer. I know that the member for Vancouver East is
a proponent of this idea and has contemplated coming forward with
a bill on this very subject. It will be a sad day if any level
of government would ever give in to funding such a program.
These are the types of issues my constituents are talking about.
They are worried. They want to be protected and they will be
confident if criminals are off the street and they will have a
better sense of safety. They will feel less worried knowing that
violent criminals are actually behind bars where they belong.
Of course maintaining correctional centres is not inexpensive.
The cost per criminal sometimes seems very enormous for
continuous custody, especially very secure custody. But is it
not also the best insurance that money can buy? Ask someone from
St. Catharines, Ontario if having Paul Bernardo or Karla Homolka
locked away makes them feel more at ease.
The reason I am speaking here today has to do with fixing a
problem, a problem that has plagued our nation since 1976 when
Warren Allmand, then solicitor general, introduced a law that
gave a glimmer of hope to the worst criminals sentenced to life
in prison.
Mr. Allmand wanted criminals to have a chance at serving a
lesser sentence if they could convince people they were suitable,
so called, to return to society. Mr. Allmand never really liked
the term life in prison, and capital punishment was not an
option. He felt that was barbaric. Certainly he was focused on
the offender rather than the balance of justice and victim
rights.
After 15 years this Liberal government believes that a criminal
should be allowed to seek the option of applying to a court for
permission to be heard before a parole board. It supports the
criminal agenda to walk, and who can blame them? I would not
want to be locked up. Nobody would.
These criminals committed crimes, very serious crimes, and
therefore they should be prepared to do the time, the whole time,
25 years before being allowed to apply for parole. That was the
minimum exchange and the bargain that was made with this country
for cancelling capital punishment from the law books.
Today when I finish my speech this House is going to hear the
Liberal perhaps getting up and saying the chance for a Clifford
Olson or a Paul Bernardo getting paroled is so slim that the
Canadian public has nothing to worry about. Do we really think
that Canadians want to gamble with those types of stakes
especially when we see the record of those who are in charge of
the system? I think not.
Bill C-258 would simply repeal the faint hope clause; very
simple and straightforward. It is not necessary for the proper
administration of justice. It has no place in criminal law. It
undermines the system. However, repeal would come with a twist.
In past debates on this very issue Liberal members in this House
have cited that if the clause were repealed it would immediately
create constitutional challenges. In other words, criminals who
were sentenced after the Criminal Code was changed to include
faint hope would not be affected by a repeal of the clause in
this bill.
1755
It was an issue of retroactivity. I want to unequivocally state
that while I would prefer to see the act changed to include
violent criminals like Clifford Olson and so on, I see that maybe
there are problems regarding constitutionality. Perhaps if we
were to expand the debate, we could get into the flaws of
Canada's constitution. This is not the place or the time for
that.
The debate surrounding the issue has surfaced a great deal,
particularly since Reformers came to Ottawa in 1993. We raised
the issue for one simple reason. It is an issue that Canadians
care about deeply.
As a country we want to feel safe. We want the reassurance that
violent criminals, those who have committed murder are kept
behind bars, are sent to prison for life. We want to feel that
the rights of victims supersede the rights of criminals. The
last point is important because Liberals are ignoring it.
Warren Allmand said in the House: “If the person is really
reformed and no longer a danger to the public, that person after
15 years can be put back on the street to earn his or her living,
to support his or her family, to pay taxes rather than being paid
for by the state while in prison while the family is being
supported by welfare. I am talking about a person who is no
longer a danger to the public, who is no longer a risk and who is
deemed to be rehabilitated by the parole board”.
Warren Allmand, like many of his misguided colleagues in this
House during that parliament, put the rights of criminals ahead
of victims.
I want to read a quote from Sharon Rosenfeldt whose son was
savagely murdered by Clifford Olson. Ms. Rosenfeldt spoke these
words during the last parliament debate before the Standing
Committee on Justice:
When I learned that Olson had indeed made the application, I was
stunned. Suddenly many images flashed through my mind. I felt
shock but I shouldn't feel shock. I felt angry but I shouldn't
feel angry. I felt hurt but I shouldn't be hurting. I felt
betrayed and I felt panic. I couldn't breathe and I couldn't
stay still. I kept pacing from room to room. I wanted to cry, I
wanted to scream and I wanted to run.
Why do we have to go through this again? I felt weak and
vulnerable. I could not lose my dignity again. I went into the
family room and took my son's picture off the cabinet. I sat
down and stared lovingly at him, outlining his face with my
hands. He looked so perfect.
You see, I always have to reconstruct his face in my mind
because a hammer was used on him. He was beaten beyond
recognition. I cradled his picture next to my heart and once
again made the same promises I had 15 years earlier. I got on my
knees and I asked God to give me the strength to keep my dignity.
This is very important to me because after Clifford Olson took
my child's life, he also took my dignity for a while. I will not
let Olson and the system do that again.
I would like my colleagues opposite just for a minute to put
themselves into the situation of that victim or another. I would
be interested to know how many Liberal members would preach the
same message regarding the faint hope clause if someone close to
them was murdered and then allowed the chance to be released
early.
It is easy to talk the talk. Liberals preach that we should
really give murderers another chance. Liberals say they served
some time, therefore if they are reformed then let them have
another crack at open society.
Would they really feel comfortable having the murderer walk the
streets, the same murderer who took the life of a loved one?
Would they maybe change their minds?
The reason I introduced this bill and the reason that I will
continue to fight for the repeal of the faint hope clause has
everything to do with standing up for victims like Sharon
Rosenfeldt.
These victims deserve the right to have a voice. They deserve
the right to be shown the utmost respect. However, the way the
bleeding hearts have crafted our judicial system, it seems to
give most of the rights to the criminal. That is the impression
the Canadian public has.
The Liberals will say victims are given many rights such as
victim impact statements and so on. The truth is that if they
cared so much about victims, people such as Sharon Rosenfeldt and
the thousands of others who find themselves in similar situations
would not be so disgusted with the justice system.
Bill C-258 unfortunately would do little to stop Clifford Olson
from his opportunity for a hearing. It would, however, stop such
travesties of justice in the future. It would change the meaning
of a life sentence. It would allow victims some peace of mind.
Clifford Olson will again be allowed the right to be heard
before a court some day. Every time this happens, victims will
be made to endure agony. There are many like him all because of
a small clause in the Criminal Code, section 745, all because
bleeding heart Liberals think the rights of the criminal
supersede others.
As legislators we are bound by so many things. Reformers are
doing whatever we can to change the system to make it fairer, to
be more responsive to the Canadian agenda, more transparent.
1800
We will fight for what is right, even if it is one small step at
a time. That is the purpose of this small bill.
When a judge sentences a criminal to life in prison it should be
understood that they will serve 25 years before eligibility for
parole. I shudder when I think that someone like Olson, who
brutally murdered innocent people, children, would be given a
chance at all for parole, but that is the law.
The section I am trying to repeal provides a glimmer of hope to
someone who does not deserve one. I understand it is not a
guarantee that a criminal will be released, but that glimmer of
hope is enough to send a shiver down my spine.
Members of this House should imagine only for a moment what it
must be like for a victim knowing that the murderer of their son
or daughter will have a chance to walk free.
I say to my Liberal friends, bandage up your bleeding hearts
just for once and take a stand on behalf of victims of this
country. I do not believe that any member wants the most violent
criminals of this world to be walking the streets. That is not
the issue. Therefore, there is no reason to want to keep the
faint hope clause in the Criminal Code. I ask, for once do what
is right and get rid of section 745.
[Translation]
Ms. Eleni Bakopanos (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Bill
C-258 proposes to delete section 745.6 of the Criminal Code,
which provides for judicial review of the parole ineligibility
period in respect of persons convicted of murder or high
treason.
The government believes that section 745.6 ought to continue to
be applied in exceptional and deserving cases. For this
reason, the bill being proposed by the hon. member of the
opposition clearly runs counter to federal government policy,
and we are not, therefore, in favour of it.
As the hon. members are aware, section 745.6 was passed in 1976,
at the time the death penalty was abolished in Canada. At that
time, this House believed that section 745.6 was necessary in
order to provide hope of rehabilitation to those convicted of
murder and to protect prison guards. Adoption of this clause
was also a recognition of the fact that, in certain cases,
incarceration in excess of 15 years was not in the public
interest.
I believe that the reasons justifying addition of this section
to the Criminal Code in 1976 remain valid today. Section 745.6
of the Criminal Code allows persons convicted of murder to apply
for a judicial review of the number of years to be served before
eligibility for parole, after they have served 15 years of their
sentence.
In the case of first degree murder or treason, the time to be
served before eligibility for parole is set by law at 25 years.
In the case of second degree murder, the number of years of
imprisonment without eligibility for parole is 10 years, unless
the judge at trial extends it to 25. The offender may not apply
for judicial review of the number of years of imprisonment
without eligibility for parole until he has served 15 years of
his sentence.
The offender has to convince a jury of 12 ordinary citizens that
the number of years should be reduced. After the jury has
examined the evidence presented by the applicant and the crown
attorney, including any victim statements, it decides whether it
is appropriate to reduce the number of years of imprisonment
without eligibility for parole.
If the jury does decide to reduce it, the offender has the right
to submit an application to the National Parole Board on expiry
of the period as reduced by the jury under section 745. The
parole board then looks at his file and grants parole when it
sees fit to do so.
In order to reach its decision, the National Parole Board must
determine whether paroling the offender would constitute an
undue threat to public safety.
I must stress one point that is essential to an understanding of
this matter, but may not be readily understood by the public.
The life sentence imposed upon a person convicted of murder or
high treason weighs upon this individual for the rest of his
life.
1805
Thus, when an offender is released, his sentence still applies,
and he may be reincarcerated at any time if he violates the
conditions set by the parole board.
This is not an easy way to get out of jail, as the opposition
would have Canadians believe. Section 745.6 establishes an
extremely rigorous procedure, and those who apply are very
rarely successful. The fact is that the vast majority of those
eligible to apply for a judicial review never do so. They
simply decide to forgo the opportunity of their own accord,
perhaps because they know that their efforts would be to no
avail.
[English]
We all know that there is a great deal of public concern about
section 745.6. Many have asked for the repeal of this section
out of concern for public safety. Others have cited the
revictimization of the victim's family by the review hearing held
15 years down the road at a time when the terrible wounds
inflicted by the crime may have just started to heal. Others
focus on the appropriate minimum period of incarceration for the
worst offence in our Criminal Code.
This government shares the concerns of Canadians. That is why
the government amended section 745.6 in the last Parliament.
As many members of the House will know, Bill C-45 brought three
key changes to section 745.6. The first eliminated judicial
review for all multiple murders committed in the future whether
the murders are committed at the same time or not. This would
include serial murders. The proposed amendment is consistent
with the notion long found in the Criminal Code which states that
a repetition of the offence should be treated more harshly by the
law than the single offence.
The second created a screening mechanism whereby a judge of the
superior court could conduct a paper review of the application to
determine if there is a reasonable chance of success before the
application is allowed to proceed to a full hearing before a
jury.
The third provided that the parole ineligibility period may only
be reduced by unanimous vote of the community jury, whereas
previously only two-thirds of the jury were required. As a
result of this provision an application for a reduction in the
parole ineligibility period will be denied whenever the jury
cannot reach a unanimous conclusion to reduce the period.
Section 745.6 was intended to be applied only in exceptional and
deserving cases where the offender has really been able to turn
his or her life around. Our government's amendment to this
section has strengthened this and has gone a considerable
distance in preventing non-meritorious cases from coming forward.
With the changes we have made, our government has attempted to
reach out to the families of victims. In this mandate the
government is also looking at what more can be done for victims
and their families to acknowledge the pain they feel. Improving
the criminal justice system to respond to victims' concerns is
one of the top priorities for the Minister of Justice.
Following the receipt and review of the report of the Standing
Committee on Justice and Human Rights in the fall of 1998, the
Minister of Justice intends to move ahead with appropriate
legislation and non-legislative initiatives to improve the
situation of the crime victim.
In April 1998 the minister tabled in this House a letter which
she sent to the chair of the Standing Committee on Justice and
Human Rights expressing her interest in its review of the
victim's role in the criminal justice system. In the letter she
noted particular issues which she anticipated would be raised in
the committee proceedings, including the adequacy of existing
provisions to facilitate the participation of victims and
witnesses in the criminal justice system, the need to explore
reforms to the victim impact statement provisions, enhancements
to the Criminal Code's victim fine surcharge provision and the
need to accommodate the interests of victims in the youth justice
system.
The minister also noted that she was considering various models
for the establishment of an offence for victims of crime within
the Department of Justice which would, among other things, ensure
that the victim's perspective is considered in the development of
all criminal law policy and legislation.
There is a lot more we can do for victims and their families
than just focus simplistically and single-mindedly on the repeal
of section 745.6, as the official opposition has in the past few
months in the House.
These amendments came into force on January 9, 1997.
At present officials from the Department of Justice are
monitoring their impact on this section to see if they are
achieving their aim.
1810
Yes, I do have blood in my veins, as the official opposition
would like us to believe. Yes, we are bleeding heart Liberals.
But if that means that we are compassionate and that we care
about every Canadian in the country, yes, that is what it means.
Compassion is part of what this government is all about.
I am proud to be a bleeding heart Liberal if that is the
definition that the official opposition would like us to believe.
[Translation]
The government believes, as do many Canadians, that even those
found guilty of very serious criminal acts should be able to
acknowledge their crimes and rehabilitate themselves. We feel
that it is important that our justice system have a mechanism
allowing people, in exceptional cases, an opportunity to rebuild
their lives.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
echoing the government member somewhat, we in the Bloc Quebecois
also believe that this bill is not votable. If it were, we
would vote against it, because I believe that there are some
very important principles involved, ones which the Reform Party
appears to have ignored.
It must not be lost sight of that the objective of this bill is
the deletion of sections of the Criminal Code which allow a
judicial review of the parole ineligibility period with respect
to certain life sentences.
Certainly, on first examination, the Reform Party approach seems
to have some merit, but once again—and this is not the first time
I have said this—we must look at the Canadian justice system in
its entirety, and not just approach it piecemeal, trying to
solve certain problems one at a time.
I believe the entire Canadian system is a bit like a giant
jigsaw puzzle.
If one piece is taken away, there is a whole section that cannot
be put together, and this is a very dangerous thing. In the
case before us now, what the Reform bill would have us remove is
a vital piece of the justice system.
Much has been said on this. I had a written text, but I do not
think I shall follow it, because the basic problem is readily
understood. Where the justice system is concerned, we must not
go overboard. The justice system must not be examined in the
light of some cases that make front page headlines. This is not
the way the problem can be solved.
At the present time, the Criminal Code contains a series of
sections on parole mechanisms, starting with 745.6.
It is not true, as I have heard said on this side of the House,
that it is so easy for a criminal to obtain parole. We must
start with the basic premise that the parole system has one very
clear objective, and that is rehabilitation. If there is no
agreement on that principle from the start, it is obvious that
what will follow will be fruitless dialogue and that we will
never be able to reach an agreement.
In Quebec, for the past 30 years at least, we have had a clear
idea where both young and adult offenders are concerned that
there must be a rehabilitation component to the parole process.
This is extremely important.
Rehabilitation is not automatic, obviously. Before a case is
examined in order to see whether a person who has committed a
serious crime and been given a life sentence can obtain any type
of parole, within the system we have at the present time, it is
certain that an analysis has been carried out.
We have to be sure that the offender's behaviour will not pose a
threat to society. It is not true that just anyone is released.
A case is examined and an extremely important review procedure
takes place.
This procedure can be found in section 745.6, which was debated
in the House in 1996 with Bill C-45, as I am sure members recall.
At the time, the government proposed limiting accessibility to
the review procedure through a series of legislative amendments.
I remember this very clearly because I thought back then that
the government was going too far.
1815
Even today, I think that the government went too far, but it is
now part of the system. We must live with it and make the best
of it.
If we examine the issue from a public safety standpoint, the
higher the bar is placed for a criminal seeking release, the
greater the guarantee of public safety, of course. Even before
the government's amendments, the safeguards for society were
adequate, but the government added additional obstacles for
these offenders and the result is that today we are fine with
the amendments.
Even with the government's amendments to Bill C-45, the Reform
Party is proposing the repeal pure and simple of the review
process.
When we look at the legislation that the government opposite is
producing, inspired by Reform Party ideas, we can see
similarities between the two parties.
From a justice and legislative point of view, there are
similarities with respect to severity and repression. We will
see this again in the very near future, when the government
introduces a young offenders bill. I am sure that the
government will crack down and that Reform Party members will
say the government is not going far enough. But this is not how
Quebec has looked at things for at least 30 years, as I have
already mentioned.
To come back to the review procedure which is the focus of the
bill, section 745.6 cannot be viewed as an escape clause for
offenders trying to shorten their sentence. I think that the
review procedure provided for in section 745.6 is complex and
elaborate.
We must avoid the conclusion that criminals purging life
sentences have too easy access to early parole because of
section 745.6 of the Criminal Code.
A clear understanding of the application for review procedure
necessitates reference to section 745.6 and sections 745.61 to
745.64, which describe how the review procedure works. On
reading these new sections, we see that the review is not a
matter of chance. It is far from being a lottery for inmates.
If they are lucky, they get paroled, if they are not, their
applications get turned down. The review is rigorous and has
two stages. First, there is the initial examination mechanism
and then the admissibility of the application is considered.
I listened earlier to the parliamentary secretary as she clearly
summarized the review application procedure.
I will focus on one point only, which is that the application,
once accepted, is put to a jury, and, here again, it is no
cakewalk for the inmate. He must convince the jury of the
validity of his application for release. This is no easy
matter. The procedure is highly complex. I am not saying it is
too complex for the criminal. I am saying there is no need to
alert public opinion over such matters.
Our system has been improved over the years. There are of
course cases like Olson's, which a Reform member mentioned
earlier. Everyone agrees that such cases could no longer occur
under the current legislation. There was indeed a loophole in
the Criminal Code, but we tried to plug it.
Although I may once again appear to be defending the government,
my purpose is in fact to see that justice prevails.
This is a matter of fairness. Even in cases involving
criminals, I think the legislation must be fair.
1820
I will sum up very briefly why the Bloc Quebecois is opposed to
this bill. First, we oppose it because it goes against the
sentencing guidelines of public safety and rehabilitation.
Second, the bill is based on the misconception that early
release is impossible, even if rehabilitation has truly taken
place. Third, the review procedure provided for in the bill is
too complex and elaborate to think that offenders serving life
sentences can abuse it. Finally, the opportunity to declare an
offender dangerous under section 752 of the Criminal Code
reduces the possibility of repeat offences.
The fact is that I have not had the time to elaborate on the
subject but, once again, there are provisions for declaring
someone a dangerous offender and this entire review procedure is
impossible.
For the reasons I have mentioned, I think that Canada's parole
system does not jeopardize public safety.
[English]
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House to speak in
support of Bill C-258 as moved by the hon. member for New
Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby.
This bill is consistent with Progressive Conservative policy to
repeal section 745 of the Criminal Code, better known as the
faint hope clause. It is also consistent with a motion that I
tabled in the House last year similarly calling for the repeal of
section 745.
It is sadly ironic today that the Liberals are defending the
faint hope clause since yesterday we heard their defences of Bill
C-68, which should be henceforth known as the false hope clause.
The Liberals have truly shown themselves as more than happy to
give faint hope to convicted killers such as Clifford Olson, as
previously mentioned, while giving false hope to Canadians
worried about crime committed with firearms.
Although the amendments proposed in the bill by the hon. member
would not apply retroactively, it would at least ensure that
murderers are fully held accountable for the crimes that they
commit. Accountability is a very important principle in our
justice system and one which many feel has been neglected of
late. From the Prime Minister's recent performance in the House,
it would seem that accountability is also being neglected in the
Chamber.
An injection of accountability into our justice system is
something most Canadians would surely welcome. This would be
taken into account with other principles of rehabilitation, as
has been mentioned by friend from the Bloc; general and specific
deterrents; other sentencing principles; and principles of
justice and fairness.
In early 1997 the Liberal government of the day amended the
Criminal Code to restrict the provisions for judicial review.
Three fundamental changes were enacted at that time. First,
offenders who committed multiple murders would no longer have the
right to apply for section 745.6 under the Criminal Code.
Second, applicants, including those serving time for murder at
the time of the amendments coming into force, would no longer
have the automatic right to a section 745 hearing, going instead
to a superior court judge to decide whether the applicant could
then show a reasonable prospect for success before the
application moved any further.
The third amendment to that section would require that a jury
reach unanimous consent to order a release instead of the
previous threshold of only a two-thirds majority.
While those amendments were certainly well intentioned, they
contained a number of flaws. The new provisions implied that a
single murder should be considerably less serious than multiple
murders. Since multiple murderers convicted after January 1997
would be ineligible to apply for judicial review under section
745 at the time, it brings into question the overall fairness
when one considers it from the victim's point of view.
As they would later do with the hepatitis C victims, the
Liberals apparently drew an artificial line in the sand with
respect to multiple murders as opposed to single premeditated
murders. I would suggest that all premeditated murders should be
treated equally under this provision. Does it not degrade the
memory of the murder victims and the suffering that was inflicted
upon them and their families to draw this sort of distinction?
My second criticism of those amendments was that the
government's much touted amendments of section 745 amounted to no
real changes with respect to the way judicial review hearing
processes were conducted.
1825
I am sure all members will agree the process is extremely
important in that the hearings for early parole eligibility
remain with the very limited information about the crime
committed by the offender. To seriously restrict information
with respect to the crime committed during these hearings is akin
to restricting information with respect to the crime itself
during the original trial and sentencing proceedings.
The Liberal amendments also created another level of
bureaucracy, that is the government's decision to replace the
criminal's absolute right to a hearing with an absolute right to
apply for a hearing which might also lead to further appeals
within the system.
One of the arguments the Minister of Justice, the solicitor
general and their respective departments advanced at this time
against the over reliance on incarceration is therefore lost. The
Liberals make this contention while they create another level of
bureaucracy to facilitate the release of convicted killers.
It is a sad and telling statement on the priorities of the
government. It provides different ways for murderers to get out
of jail while victims of crime still to this date have no voice,
no advocate within the criminal justice system at this level. The
Minister of Justice and the solicitor general can only scratch
their heads and wonder why Canadians continue to have a cynical
and distrustful view of our justice system.
Section 745, regardless of the Liberal government's amendment a
year and a half ago, continues to force families of victims to
relive the murders and to relive them at the cost of the
taxpayer. Some would say that the lack of a death penalty is the
hallmark of a civilized society, but there are certainly many
Canadians who would suggest it is certainly uncivilized to force
the families of murder victims to once again go through this type
of judicial revisiting of the offence itself. We certainly
witnessed that just over a year ago with Mr. Olson's hearing in
British Columbia.
Perhaps the families of murder victims should launch a legal
challenge under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms on the basis
that a section 745 Criminal Code hearing violates their section 7
charter rights that everyone including these victims have a right
to life, liberty and the security of persons and a right not to
be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of
fundamental justice.
Is a section 745 hearing in accordance with the principles of
fundamental justice? I doubt it. I challenge any hon. member in
the House who supports section 745 to rationally assert that this
is fundamentally just. I fear that it might come to that and that
the victims of crime and their families will have to go to court
to get a judicial opinion with respect to this piece of
legislation.
The Reform Party has often made its views very clear in the
House about judicial activism. I suggest there is a graver
danger at work, that is legislative pacifism where society's most
vulnerable individuals, victims and in many cases children, have
no other public forum to have their views addressed by the
courts. What are we doing in the House if we are not doing
everything to protect those persons?
Therefore I would suggest that section 745 needs to be repealed,
and the sooner the better. We in the House need to reflect upon
the wishes of those individuals who are unable to speak for
themselves. This is why I put forward the premise and the
suggestion that the government should be establishing an
independent ombudsman for victims which would also be in
accordance with the government's repeated position that it wants
to do more for victims. This would be consistent with that wish.
Victims would be given a greater voice within the justice system.
They would be given an independent person, a place of appeal, for
information, a place where they could go to have their voices
heard.
I urge all hon. members of the House, especially the government
members who spoke so passionately in favour of victims rights, to
justify their support for Bill C-68, to join with opposition
members in supporting the bill. As such, at this time I move for
unanimous consent to make this bill deemed a votable item.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. member for
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough has asked for the unanimous
consent of the House to make this bill votable. Is there
unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
An hon. member: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Four
members would like to speak to the bill before the mover gets the
last five minutes to wrap up. If hon. members would keep that in
mind, we will see if we can get everybody worked in given that we
have 15 minutes to go.
1830
Mr. John Nunziata (York South—Weston, Ind.): Mr.
Speaker, I commend the hon. member for New
Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby for again bringing this matter
forward.
In December 1993 I had a similar private member's bill before
parliament. At second reading parliament voted in favour of the
bill, including 80 members of the Liberal caucus. Parliament in
effect pronounced itself on the matter but regrettably when the
bill was referred to committee the Liberal dominated committee
effectively killed the bill. Subsequent to that Bill C-45 was
brought forward. As I have said on many occasions, Bill C-45
simply does not go far enough. Short of a complete repeal of
section 745, I do not believe Canadians would be satisfied.
We are dealing here with the penalty for first degree murder,
the most serious and offensive crime in the Criminal Code of
Canada. We are not dealing with a crime of passion. We are not
dealing with manslaughter. We are dealing in some cases with
second degree murder. For the most part we are dealing with
those individuals who have the wherewithal to plan the murder of
another human being in a very deliberate way. These are people
who have in some cases murdered a single individual and in other
cases more, like Clifford Olson who murdered 11 innocent
children.
This evening we are discussing what the appropriate penalty
should be for that crime. Surely to give to certain people who
commit that type of crime the right for their parole
ineligibility be reduced to 15 years is nothing short of
unconscionable.
It is clear where Canadians stand on what the punishment ought
to be for first degree murder. Poll after poll over the years
has indicated that Canadians support capital punishment. This
House voted against the reinstatement of capital punishment a
number of years ago.
Short of that the Canadian public would like to see a just
criminal justice system that would entail a severe penalty for
first degree murder. Most Canadians thought that the penalty for
first degree murder was a minimum of 25 years in prison. Until
recently when the media would report a conviction they would say
that the individual would be serving a minimum of 25 years. That
was not the case. As my hon. friend pointed out, in 1976 the
so-called faint hope clause was inserted into the Criminal Code.
It took 15 years before Canadians came to realize that the faint
hope clause was in effect the sure bet clause because the success
rate was around 80%. So 80% of those who applied to have their
parole ineligibility reduced had their parole ineligibility
reduced. That is simply not acceptable.
I estimate that 95% to 98% of Canadians would like to see the
repeal of section 745 to render the criminal justice system a
just system. Right now Canadians are cynical about the criminal
justice system. There is considerable disrespect not only
because of the inclusion of section 745 in the code but other
problems with the Young Offenders Act, concurrent sentencing,
parole and probation provisions.
Canadians want to see a criminal justice that is just, that puts
public safety and the rights of victims in front of the rights of
accused persons and criminals, including those serving time for
murder.
Regrettably Bill C-258 will not be voted on because of the
private members' process that we have in existence today. That
is another debate.
It is unfortunate because it seems to me that the whole process
is somewhat meaningless unless matters such as this are brought
to a vote in the House so all members of parliament can exercise
their democratic duty and pronounce themselves on behalf of their
constituents. This bill could, if voted on, be made retroactive
if parliament were to decide to use the notwithstanding clause.
1835
I again express my concern about section 745 and my complete
support for its repeal. I believe it is consistent with the
views of my constituents and the overwhelming majority of
Canadians. I am pleased that we are once again debating this
matter. I hope that at some point the government will allow this
matter to be brought to a vote so that all members of parliament
can express the views of their constituents.
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
I too support the bill proposed by the hon. member for New
Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby, Bill C-258. I will keep my
comments rather brief and to the point through a personal story.
If there is every a place that you do not want to meet somebody
it is at a hearing involving a section 745 case. Unfortunately
that is where I met one of my constituents for the first time,
Mr. Ray King. Mr. King is the father of one of Olson's victims.
Mr. King came to me prior to that case and shared with me the
years of anguish he went through personally as a result of the
incident that unfortunately happened to his son.
That is what this is about. We have heard in the House today
philosophical difference. There certainly is a very big
philosophical difference. This philosophical difference has a
dramatic impact on individual lives, Mr. King's life being a
clear example of that.
I will read into the record a few of the comments made
by Mr. King and the anguish that he shared personally and
publicly in this process he had to go through:
The nightmares that had been absent in my life for several
years returned (after going through this process).
We get a life sentence too. And it doesn't end after 15 years or
20 years. Having those victim impact statements read aloud in
the presence of this person was the ultimate obscenity.
Throughout it all, the grin never left his face.
I found it impossible to make any sense of the fact that this
person, who had taken away our right to see our children grow up
to adulthood, should demand and be afforded concessions.
This is the heart rending situation in this section 745 case and
this bill. It is not understandable why this bill is not votable
today.
The parliamentary secretary mentioned the changes the government
has made. I think she said it goes against government policy,
therefore it is not in favour of it. It is simply bad policy.
It is bad legislation.
We have to ask ourselves on this side and individuals across
Canada have to ask themselves is this government willing to
accept bad policy and bad law which negatively affects
individuals across this country. We must conclude by the actions
and the statements made here today by members on the government
side that it is the case. That is a sad commentary on the state
of this government and its response to the criminal justice
system.
Mr. King's comments are comments I will never forget. I was an
18 year old in Coquitlam where Olson was when his reign of terror
was going on. I have mentioned that in the House before and I
mention it again because I know personally the fear that gripped
the community. I also many years later was in the unfortunate
circumstance of having to hear Mr. King's tragedy and the loss
that changed his life forever. It is not fair to put individuals,
not one individual Canadian, through that experience.
If this government had the initiative to remove section 745 not
one Canadian would have to go through what Mr. King went through.
That is the tragedy we are talking about.
1840
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
as the former chairman of the Waterloo regional police I have a
very keen and strong interest in this area of the Criminal Code.
Bill C-258 proposes the repeal of section 745.6 of the Criminal
Code, a provision which provides for judicial review of the
parole ineligibility period for persons convicted of murder and
high treason.
I want to re-emphasize the position of the government. We
believe that section 745.6 should be retained for exceptional and
deserving cases and as such Bill C-258 is in direct conflict with
government policy and therefore certainly I do not and the
government does not support it.
Section 745.6 was enacted in 1976 when the death penalty was
abolished in Canada. That section was necessary as a source of
hope for the rehabilitation of convicted murderers and as a
protection for prison guards.
I believe the reasons that justified its addition to the
Criminal Code then are still valid today. An offender must
satisfy a jury of 12 citizens drawn from the community that the
parole ineligibility period should be reduced. At that hearing
after evidence called by the applicant and by the crown including
any information the victims of the crime may wish to bring to the
attention of the jury it is the jury which decides whether to
reduce that parole ineligibility period.
I want to emphasize a point that is crucial to an accurate
understanding of the issue. However, it is not always understood
by others and perhaps some in the public that the life sentence
imposed on a person convicted of murder or high treason continues
literally for the offender's entire life. Accordingly in those
cases where such an offender is released on parole the offender
continues to be subject to the sentence and can be reincarcerated
at any time should he or she breach a condition of release
imposed by the parole board.
Section 745.6 sets out an extremely rigorous procedure. If we
look at the facts the vast majority of those eligible to apply
simply never do.
There is a great deal of public concern about section 745.6. I
share that and the residents of Waterloo-Wellington and all
Canadians share that. The government certainly shares that
concern as well and that is why the government amended section
745.6 in the last parliament. We recognized the concerns that
were raised and we moved to deal with them.
As many members of the House will know, Bill C-45 brought three
key changes to section 745.6. The first eliminated judicial
review for all multiple murders committed in the future whether
the murders are committed at the same time or not. This would
include serial murders. The proposed amendment is consistent
with the notion long found in the Criminal Code that the
repetition of the offence should be treated more harshly by the
law in a single offence.
The second created a screening mechanism whereby a judge of a
superior court would conduct a paper review of the application to
determine if there is reasonable chance of success before the
application is allowed to proceed to a full hearing before a
jury.
The third provided that the parole ineligibility period may only
be reduced by a unanimous vote of the community jury, whereas
previously only two-thirds of the jury were required. As a
result of this provision an application for reduction of the
parole ineligibility period will be denied whenever the jury
cannot reach a unanimous conclusion to reduce the period.
There is a lot more we as a government are doing for victims and
their families. It is much more than simply focusing in on
single minded or simplistic views such as the repeal of section
745.6. The government believes, as many Canadians and certainly
residents in my area do, that people who are guilty of a terrible
act should be given a chance to come to terms with their crime
and rehabilitate themselves. In the government's view it is
important that our justice system include a mechanism which gives
some people a chance in exceptional circumstances to turn around
their lives.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): This being Private
Members' Business, the mover of the bill has the last five
minutes. Since we are in the last five minutes we will go to the
hon. member for New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby.
1845
Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, from the government side we have just
heard an incredible rationalization for releasing dangerous
offenders. Liberals have demonstrated today that they are soft on
crime.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Excuse me, if the
hon. member for Simcoe—Grey would be kind enough to sit down I
will explain how Private Members' Business works.
If the hon. member for Simcoe—Grey would like to speak in
Private Members' Business when the time has elapsed, he needs
only to stand in his place and request unanimous consent for the
time to be extended.
Mr. Paul Forseth: Mr. Speaker, we have to go back in time
and remember that section 745 of the Criminal Code was slipped in
but the effects of it, the consequences were not really
appreciated at the time by the public. It took quite a while
before these early untimely parole eligibility processes began to
kick in. The press began to respond to the emerging public
concern if not disgust, leading eventually to outrage when for
example Clifford Olson laughed at parliament, Canadians and every
misguided politician who supported the twisted logic of this
section.
Section 745 has to go. It serves no positive benefit for the
administration of justice. I have been on the line supervising
parolees. I have heard all the games. It has no place in
Canadian criminal law.
This section has been a focal point, a lightning rod, an example
of something that brings the justice system and parliament into
disrepute. Reformers will not rest until section 745 is gone.
That is the people's agenda, the agenda from coast to coast.
Thousands of names have been tendered in petitions here in this
parliament on the subject.
We have had protest rallies on Parliament Hill and across the
country on it. What does it take to get it done? Once it was
mistakenly put in place it has been so long and so hard for
Canadians to get government to correct the wrong done to the
country.
Here again we have the topic before parliament and the Liberal
members through their control of the system for private members'
bills would not let a vote occur on my bill. However, it is
still a national issue that will not go away. I brought my bill
forward again to bring it up.
The House Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights needs
to deal with this topic as it considers victims of crime in its
deliberations. Therefore, I propose a carefully worded motion to
remind the government of its duty to Canadians.
Mr. Speaker, I ask that you canvass for unanimous consent that
Bill C-258, an act to amend the Criminal Code (judicial review)
be not read a second time but that the order be discharged, the
bill withdrawn and the subject matter thereof referred to the
Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights to be included in
its review of victims of crime.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. member for
New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby has asked for unanimous
consent to have the subject matter of the bill referred to
committee.
Is there unanimous consent?
An hon. member: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): There is not
unanimous consent.
Mr. Paul Bonwick (Simcoe—Grey, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise on a point of order. I was going to request the unanimous
consent of this House to allow me an additional three or four
minutes simply to convey some remarks on behalf of the
constituents of Simcoe—Grey and myself.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. member has
asked for unanimous consent to extend Private Members' Business
by three minutes.
Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Paul Bonwick: Mr. Speaker, as you can see I was not
fully prepared for a 10 minute address.
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I would like to thank my hon. colleagues for the opportunity to
address this issue. As was noticed earlier on it is something
that is very near and dear to my heart. I carry a certain
passion for it.
I should first clarify my position on this. As the member of
parliament for Simcoe—Grey and dealing with a private members'
bill I am a very significant proponent for repealing section 745.
I do so for a couple of reasons. Those two reasons are justice
and victims rights. I encourage the members of this House to give
consideration to the elimination of section 745 for those two
reasons.
I will not repeat what some of my colleagues have commented on
with respect to justice and the amount of time served for first
degree murder. In a just society, I believe there should not be
an opportunity to have a reduction in sentence when in fact a
premeditated murder has taken place. Perhaps even more important
are the victims that are left behind to deal with this over and
over again. I would like to provide a short example. I think it
might impact on some of the hon. members of this House.
I too have a constituent in my riding that has had to experience
the loss of a loved one. In turn the murderer had the opportunity
to go through the section 745 process. It was not the spouse
that had to relive that tragedy, that travesty which took place,
but the children. She had a very easy explanation to understand
and certainly it is why I am a proponent to have this section
eliminated.
The children dealt with it as children some 17 or 18 years ago.
They were able to put it behind them and get on with their lives.
She was able to address it accordingly and raise her children in
a very good way. Some 15 years later, the children were forced to
deal with it again but this time as adults. That had a very
negative consequence on their lives. It has had a dramatic
effect on that.
I believe if we are to give true consideration, if we are truly
to be supportive of victims rights, then we have no option but to
eliminate section 745.
On behalf of the constituents of Simcoe—Grey, I voice my
comments here on this private members' bill and wholeheartedly
endorse the removal and elimination of section 745.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The time provided for the
consideration of Private Members' Business has now expired and
the order is dropped from the order paper.
ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
[English]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to
have been moved.
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, on May
12 I asked the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development and the Minister of Justice and Attorney General for
Canada questions concerning the fiduciary responsibility of this
federal government toward aboriginal peoples.
The Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development clearly
confirmed the government's honouring of the fiduciary
relationship. But then, and this is when things get baffling,
the Minister of Justice actually declared to this House that the
government's recent actions were consistent with its fiduciary
responsibilities. I am hoping the government can clarify the
increasingly muddy waters.
This Liberal government's justice minister intervened on the
side of the New Brunswick government to appeal a lower court
ruling which exempted aboriginal peoples from sales tax. This
government actually and explicitly took the position that
aboriginal peoples in this case should not be exempt from sales
tax. This clearly sets this government in opposition to the
interests of aboriginal peoples.
How then can the Minister of Justice justify to this House that
directly opposing the interests of aboriginal peoples is somehow
supporting the interests of aboriginal peoples?
In the factum submitted to the supreme court, the Minister of
Justice took a position adverse to the First Nations people of
New Brunswick. The actions of the Minister of Justice appear to
have been a gross betrayal of this government's fiduciary
responsibility.
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The 1993 report of the Canadian Human Rights commissioner
states:
The fact that Canada seems to be moving in the direction of
self-government in no way diminishes the responsibility that the
Government of Canada at present has to “uphold the honour of the
Crown” with respect to its fiduciary undertakings.
The present finance minister, then an opposition member, wrote a
letter on June 11, 1991 wherein he stated:
My understanding of this situation is that the government must
recognize the tax immunity of First Nations people. Upon proof
of status, a First Nations citizen should not be required to pay
the GST levy.
He then went on to state:
I urge you to rectify their present situation and honour the
fiduciary responsibility of the federal government in relation to
tax immunity to aboriginal Canadians.
I wonder why the finance minister did not stick to his word and
come out strongly against the intervention of the justice
minister against the interest of first nations people on this
issue.
The Prime Minister himself took up the torch on this issue a
year and a half after the finance minister made his views clear.
The Prime Minister, then Leader of the Opposition, wrote on
January 22, 1993:
I have pressed the Minister to amend the policy for off-reserve
purchases, which are exempt from the GST only if they are
delivered to the reserve by the vendor. This policy, as you can
attest, has the practical effect of denying a tax exemption
guaranteed by the Indian Act.
The Liberal government has done a real disservice to all
aboriginal people and all Canadians. The Minister of Justice has
failed to uphold the government's fiduciary responsibility to
aboriginal people.
It also appears that either the Prime Minister and the finance
minister did not know of the justice minister's actions and
stance on the issue of taxation of first nations people or were
willing to admit their earlier letters on the issue were little
more than a pre-election ploy to curry votes from aboriginal
Canadians.
I trust the government will admit that it has failed to uphold
its fiduciary duty to aboriginal people and come clean with the
public on where the government stands with respect to taxation on
aboriginal peoples.
Mr. David Iftody (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Indian Affairs and Northern Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I am pleased on behalf of the Minister of Indian Affairs and
Northern Development to respond to the hon. member for Halifax
West concerning Canada's fiduciary responsibility toward its
aboriginal people.
The federal government takes very seriously its fiduciary
relationship with aboriginal people. However, in a legal
context, there is much uncertainty within fiduciary law on what
the specific duties or obligations of the federal government are
because of this relationship.
The Supreme Court of Canada has begun to outline Canada's
specific obligations in this complex area, beginning as far back
as the Calder case. Mr. Calder was one of the elders of the
Nisga'a clan with whom we have just signed a very historical
agreement. The Sparrow case is another one reaching the Supreme
Court of Canada, and most recently the well known Delgamuukw case
in which the supreme court outlined a broad context by which the
federal government must interpret the specifics in each
arrangement with its first peoples.
The government has studied these decisions carefully to ensure
that Canada's actions conform to the principles articulated by
these esteemed courts. Among these principles is Canada's
fiduciary responsibility to ensure that surrenders of reserve
lands reflect the intentions of the first nations for whom the
reserve has been set aside.
The courts are one process chosen by aboriginal people to
resolve outstanding grievances, as they should from time to time.
In some instances the Government of Canada has intervened in
courts cases to which aboriginal people are also parties. Crown
intervention decisions like other positions in court are taken
carefully, considering the implications for aboriginal people as
well as for government policy.
With our special relationship with aboriginal people and with
the Gathering Strength initiative, the government encourages the
use of negotiation rather than litigation.
HEALTH
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Mr.
Speaker, I want to follow up on a question I asked the Minister
of Health back in June relating to the health protection branch
of government.
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There are a number of disturbing things happening, but what I am
questioning is the safety and integrity of the health protection
branch. I think it is putting many Canadians at risk.
I do not think we have to look any further than the relationship
that now exists between private industry, perhaps the
multinational drug companies, and the health protection branch.
There is lots of evidence out there to suggest that they are
using a great deal of power and influence to push through the
approval of certain drugs in Canada. In fact, if the testimony
of some of the scientists who work for the Government of Canada
at the health protection branch proves to be as accurate as
reported, we are in a great deal of difficulty.
Just about every newspaper in Canada has had articles about the
various drugs that have been pushed through the system. That is
wrong. It endangers every Canadian.
We have been talking about the hepatitis C victims and what
happened following some of the misadventures of the Department of
Health and its inability track what was happening.
As an example, the health protection branch would notify the Red
Cross a year in advance as to when it was going to conduct a
review of its operations. That fact was brought out in the
Krever inquiry.
There is something wrong when the chief inspector tells someone
that he is going to inspect their operation. What will the
person do? He will clean up his act. That is exactly what
happened in the case of the Red Cross.
Fundamentally, the problem is that the department does not have
the resources to do its job. We are relying on the private
sector to do the job for us as Canadians. We are relying on the
private sector to tell us whether or not a drug is good or bad.
The relationship that presently exists between the Government of
Canada and the scientific community is an uneasy relationship
that puts every Canadian at risk.
We are putting drugs on the market that have not gone through
the proper channels of inspection. Clinical trials, for example,
are threatening the health of every single Canadian.
What I am asking the minister to do is to please take a serious
look at the health protection branch. At the end of the day, we
have to depend on the Minister of Health and the Government of
Canada to protect all Canadians.
We are asking the Minister of Health to get a hold on his
department and to do what is right so that at the end of the day
all Canadians will be protected.
Ms. Elinor Caplan (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to respond to the
member for New Brunswick Southwest, although I believe the
question he asked of the minister some time ago was with respect
to the bureau of veterinary drugs.
However, if his question is about the HPB, the health protection
branch, I want to assure him that this minister and this
government take the health of Canadians very seriously. We
understand the very important role that is played by the health
protection branch.
The minister today in the House spoke about a task which has
been undertaken that will look at the role of the HPB into the
future. We have begun a countrywide consultation.
There has already been a meeting in Halifax. There will be
meetings right across this country. I would encourage the member
opposite to participate in those discussions. The role of the
health protection branch, whether in veterinary drugs, pesticide
management, approval of new drugs, medical devices and so forth,
touches the lives of Canadians every day. It also has a very
important role to play in the area of not only protection but
promotion.
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We are all equally concerned about ensuring that Canada is as
prepared as it can be and that we have the very best science.
That is the reason the minister brought together leading
Canadians with a science focus. The science advisory committee
is overseeing the review.
We are very serious about ensuring that the health of Canadians
is protected at all times and that the role of the federal
government and Health Canada under HPB is appropriate to meet the
needs of Canadians today and into the new millennium.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The motion to
adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted.
Accordingly, this House stands adjourned until tomorrow at
2 p.m., pursuant to order made Friday, June 12, 1998.
(The House adjourned at 7.06 p.m.)