36th Parliament, 1st Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 15
CONTENTS
Friday, October 10, 1997
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
1000
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADA MARINE ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. David M. Collenette |
1005
1010
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Lee Morrison |
1015
1020
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Michel Guimond |
1025
1030
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Bev Desjarlais |
1035
1040
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
1045
1050
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Stan Keyes |
1055
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | NATIONAL MENOPAUSE AWARENESS MONTH
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Jean Augustine |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | UKRAINIAN CANADIANS
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Inky Mark |
1100
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | IMMIGRATION
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Susan Whelan |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | NATIONAL FAMILY WEEK
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Eleni Bakopanos |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | NATIONAL CO-OPERATIVE WEEK
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Antoine Dubé |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PAY EQUITY
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Mac Harb |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | RED RIVER FLOODING
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jake E. Hoeppner |
1105
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | LAND MINES
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Robert Bertrand |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE LATE GILLES BOULET
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | LAND MINES
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Beth Phinney |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | VIOLENCE
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Grant McNally |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | YOUTH EMPLOYMENT
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Sarmite Bulte |
1110
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | NORTH AMERICAN INDIGENOUS GAMES
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Rick Laliberte |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EMPLOYMENT
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Steve Mahoney |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | AGRICULTURE
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Scott Brison |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | JUSTICE
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Carmen Provenzano |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HIGHWAYS
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Casey |
1115
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | RCMP INVESTIGATIONS
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Miss Deborah Grey |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Marcel Massé |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Miss Deborah Grey |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Miss Deborah Grey |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Marcel Massé |
1120
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chuck Strahl |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chuck Strahl |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Marcel Massé |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Marcel Massé |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Richard Marceau |
1125
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Marcel Massé |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Richard Marceau |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Marcel Massé |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chris Axworthy |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chris Axworthy |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Marcel Massé |
1130
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Marcel Massé |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | TAXATION
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Eric Lowther |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Paul Martin |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Eric Lowther |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Paul Martin |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | FISHING INDUSTRY
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvan Bernier |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. David Anderson |
1135
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvan Bernier |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. David Anderson |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EDMONTON INSTITUTION FOR WOMEN
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jack Ramsay |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nick Discepola |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jack Ramsay |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nick Discepola |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | SEARCH AND RESCUE HELICOPTERS
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bernard Bigras |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bernard Bigras |
1140
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | KINGSTON PENITENTIARY
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Myron Thompson |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nick Discepola |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Myron Thompson |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nick Discepola |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Crête |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EMPLOYMENT
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
1145
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Derrek Konrad |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bernard Patry |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Derrek Konrad |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EMPLOYMENT
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nelson Riis |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Paul Martin |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nelson Riis |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Paul Martin |
1150
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jean J. Charest |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Paul Martin |
1155
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Wendy Lill |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Marcel Massé |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PUBLIC WORKS
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gilles Bernier |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Marcel Massé |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | FOREIGN AFFAIRS
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Sophia Leung |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CRTC
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Pankiw |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. John Manley |
1200
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE ENVIRONMENT
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. René Laurin |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Karen Kraft Sloan |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | INDIVIDUAL MEMBER'S EXPENDITURES
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | The Deputy Speaker |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ORDER IN COUNCIL APPOINTMENTS
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Procedure and House Affairs
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | STANDING ORDERS
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Don Boudria |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion
|
1205
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Finance
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Don Boudria |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Procedure and House Affairs
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion for concurrence
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PETITIONS
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Co-op Housing
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Raymond Bonin |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Conditional Sentencing
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chuck Strahl |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Criminal Code
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chuck Strahl |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Herbal Remedies
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chuck Strahl |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Sex Offenders
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chuck Strahl |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Rights of the Child
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chuck Strahl |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Highways
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nick Discepola |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | National Unity
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nick Discepola |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Taxation
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nelson Riis |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Goods and Service Tax
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nelson Riis |
1210
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Gasoline Prices
|
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nelson Riis |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Canada Student Loan Program
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nelson Riis |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Highways
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jerry Pickard |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Taxation
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Grant McNally |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Health Care
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | The Senate
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Sophia Leung |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT ORDERS
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADA MARINE ACT
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-9. Consideration resumed of motion.
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bob Kilger |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ken Epp |
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Stan Keyes |
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Inky Mark |
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Antoine Dubé |
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Wendy Lill |
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Casey |
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jake E. Hoeppner |
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Crête |
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Finance
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Don Boudria |
![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT ORDERS
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADA MARINE ACT
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-9. Consideration resumed of motion
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Hélène Alarie |
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![V](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Appendix
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(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 15
![](/web/20061116195113im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/crest2.gif)
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Friday, October 10, 1997
The House met at 10 a.m.
Prayers
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
1000
[English]
CANADA MARINE ACT
Bill C-9. On the Order: Government Orders
October 2, 1997—the Minister of Transport—Second reading and
reference to the Standing Committee on Transport of Bill C-9, an
act for making the system of Canadian ports competitive,
efficient and commercially oriented, providing for the
establishing of port authorities and the divesting of certain
harbours and ports, for the commercialization of the St. Lawrence
seaway and ferry services and other matters related to maritime
trade and transport and amending the Pilotage Act and amending
and repealing other acts as a consequence.
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.)
moved:
That Bill C-9, an act for making the system of Canadian ports
competitive, efficient and commercially oriented, providing for
the establishing of port authorities and the divesting of certain
harbours and ports, for the commercialization of the St. Lawrence
seaway and ferry services and other matters related to maritime
trade and transport and amending the Pilotage Act and amending
and repealing other acts as a consequence, be referred forthwith
to the Standing Committee on Transport.
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is a great pleasure for me to have the
opportunity to speak to hon. members about the bill before the
House, the Canada marine act. One of the government's central
goals is to strengthen Canada's economy and create a climate that
supports job creation and investment. Only with a solid economic
foundation can we retain the standard of living and social
benefits that we have come to expect as Canadians.
Fast, reliable, low cost transportation is critical to Canada's
economy. We must have a transportation system that is safe,
efficient, competitively priced and operated according to sound
business practices.
[Translation]
We have been working since 1993 to modernize Canada's
transportation network, by commercializing operations, reducing
subsidies and modernizing the legislation.
In all modes, air, surface and maritime, we are working toward
greater efficiency by increasing user input and improving community
and regional economies.
[English]
Our goal is a national integrated transportation system for the
new millennium, one that will help Canada meet the challenges of
competing in a global marketplace. A modernized multimodal
transportation network will help to create jobs and growth by
supporting domestic and international trade and by promoting
tourism.
Marine transportation is of vital importance to Canada's
economic health and makes an enormous contribution to our
international trade, tourism and jobs. The sector handles 40% of
the freight we ship each year. That accounts for 200 million
tonnes of our trade with other countries, which translates into
more than $2.5 billion a year in revenue and more than 45,000
Canadian jobs.
1005
Canada's marine sector has to adapt to the challenges of the
next millennium. It must keep up with changing markets,
competition and a changing commodity mix. Modernizing the marine
sector will have a direct impact on jobs and growth. A stronger
and more efficient marine transportation system will improve our
international trade performance and that means more jobs for
Canadians.
It was to accomplish this goal that the Department of Transport
began a review of Canada's marine management and regulatory
regime in 1994. The next year the House of Commons Standing
Committee on Transport undertook a study of the marine sector.
The leadership of my now parliamentary secretary, the hon. member
for Hamilton West, was evident throughout the process.
The report on the marine sector became known as the Keyes report.
There were many recommendations which flowed from this report to
improve the marine system.
Following the report the department held regional meetings with
shippers and industry to discuss the recommendations and then
began a series of consultations with key players in the maritime
sector. Together these activities helped to shape the
government's national marine policy which was announced in
December 1995.
The policy is designed to increase efficiency in the maritime
sector, reduce costs and give communities more control over their
ports. It will help to ensure that Canada's marine sector
continues to support international trade. It will also help us
to continue to meet our top priorities, safety, security and
environmental protection.
The policy calls for the government to continue, as regulators,
our commitment to safe marine transportation and a clean
environment.
The centrepiece of all this is the bill before us, which the
government has reintroduced as Bill C-9. It was originally
tabled in the House in June 1996 but did not complete the
parliamentary process when the House adjourned in April 1997,
prior to third reading in the Senate, as the election intervened.
We have reintroduced the legislation as it was passed in this
House last spring. Not a dot, a comma or a change has been made.
If changes are to be made the committee will deal with them.
We consider this an important bill. That is why we have
introduced it as is. It is important to the competitiveness of
our marine sector.
I welcomed the co-operation I received from the other parties
who have agreed with my judgment that this bill should be
referred to committee as soon as possible so that detailed study
can begin.
We know that industry supports this bill and wants to see the
marine system improved.
[Translation]
The revised act will consolidate and simplify maritime
regulations, reduce red tape, and speed up commercial decision-making.
It will enable the ports to meet client needs more
efficiently and to reduce the bureaucracy. Overall, it will make
our maritime sector competitive.
[English]
The bill will meet seven broad objectives. First, it will
promote and safeguard Canada's competitiveness and trade
objectives. Second, it will base marine infrastructure and
services on international practices and approaches consistent
with those of our trading partners. Third, it will ensure that
marine transportation services are organized to satisfy the needs
of users and are available at a reasonable cost. Fourth, it will
provide a high level of safety and environmental protection.
Fifth, it will provide a higher degree of autonomy for the
management of the marine transportation system. Sixth, it will
manage the marine infrastructure according to good business
practices. Seventh, it will provide for the transfer of certain
ports and facilities.
There are four main components to this bill. I do not think
time will permit me to get into detail on all of them. However, I
would like to say a few words about one in particular which is of
great interest to members of the House, the port system. The
bill will deal with pilotage, on which I believe consensus was
reached in the last Parliament. It will deal with the seaway and
it will deal with the ports themselves.
The port system has to be modernized. There is no question
about that.
1010
We have to go into the new millennium with a structure for our
ports which is comprehensive and adaptable to all the needs that
will be thrust on them.
[Translation]
We need to step up the commercial discipline of the port
system and to simplify the decision-making process.
The bill will help us to make public ports into commercial
ventures, and to gradually phase out the Canadian Ports
Corporation.
[English]
Ports deemed essential to domestic and international trade will
form a national port system and will be managed by Canada port
authorities made up of representatives of user groups and
governments.
Any port can apply to become a port authority, CPA as we
affectionately call it. To be accepted it has to meet four
criteria. It has to be financially self-sufficient, it must have
diversified traffic, it must have strategic significance to trade
and a link to a major highway or railway line.
The CPAs will be set up as non-share capital corporations with
board of directors made up of federal, provincial and municipal
appointments and user representatives. CPAs will recover their
costs from fees charged to customers and must comply with the
relevant provisions of the Canada Business Corporations Act. They
will not receive federal funding. The era of federal subsidies
is over.
CPAs will be agents of the crown. Agent status will allow ports
to pay for grants in lieu of taxes and will reinforce the ports'
immunity from provincial taxation and regulation. Agent status
will be limited to core port activities.
The directors of the CPAs will have to conform to codes of
conduct and the government will set up a public accountability
regime with new disclosure requirements. In addition, there will
be annual financial audits and special examinations of the
management operations and financial performance of CPAs every
five years.
Port authorities will be accountable to their customers, local
communities, the financial community and to the three levels of
government, federal, provincial and municipal.
CPAs will have to seek financing from the private sector. The
federal government will no longer be around to be responsible for
their debts.
A second category of ports, regional and local ports, will be
transferred to provincial and municipal governments, community
organizations, private interests and in some cases other federal
departments over the next six years. The process of divesting
these ports is already well under way. To assist this the
government has established a $125 million six year port divestiture
fund to ease the transition.
The Government of Canada will continue to ensure operation of
remote ports. Remote ports have been identified using criteria
which reflect the communities degree of isolation. Reliance of
marine and transportation is essential to their survival and we
shall continue to support them.
This policy will be applied equitably and consistently across
the country.
I want to pay particular attention to the sensitivities which
some members have expressed to me in Atlantic Canada about the
future of ports in that region. This is Canada's original
maritime area. The sea, the ports and sea traffic are so vital
to all those communities. In particular there appears to be a
challenge in Prince Edward Island. This is a challenge I would
hope the committee could examine in great detail.
Many of these concerns were expressed in the other place when
Bill C-44 was before committee. In addition, many of my
colleagues have approached me in the last few weeks with
concerns.
I and my colleagues in cabinet will be sensitive to those
concerns. We shall try to address all legitimate problems in a
fair and equitable way to ensure this bill does truly reflect the
national consensus.
Time does not permit me to talk about the other elements but
other speakers on our side will talk about the rest of the bill
and how important it is for quick passage by the House.
Mr. Lee Morrison (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the general thrust of Bill C-9 is compatible with Reform
Party policy. Several of us voted in favour of its previous
incarnation as Bill C-44. However that is not to say there is no
room for improvement.
1015
I had been looking forward to working with the minister and his
department to address some of the concerns that have been
expressed with respect to this legislation. I found them to be
very forthcoming and helpful. It is regrettable that the
co-operative atmosphere here has been so poisoned by the
contemptuous, I might even say contemptible actions of his
ministerial colleagues in the House a couple of days ago that it
is going to be difficult.
During the summer I had the opportunity to discuss the
legislation with many interested parties. Others have come to
the Hill to express their views since Parliament reopened. During
the Thanksgiving break I plan to go to Vancouver to consult with
stakeholders there.
Up to now I have found remarkable consensus among shipping
companies, stevedoring firms, unions, even shippers, both in
general support for the legislation and in the identification of
shortcomings. In the limited time available for me today I can
only touch briefly on a few areas where we would like to see
further work.
The clauses of the bill which define the capacity and power of
port authorities are inconsistent with the stated objective of
allowing them to operate according to business principles. They
are neither fish nor fowl.
The port authorities will have the responsibility to operate
with commercial discipline but they will be denied the tools to
do so. They may not, for example, diversify by establishing new
subsidiaries on port property. Their borrowing and investment
powers will be rigorously constrained and they will be subject to
the vagaries of ministerial discretion in the setting of the
annual fee that they must pay to the federal government out of
gross, not net, revenues.
Port authorities will have to be self-sufficient but the
minister will be empowered to continue federal contributions to
the seaway for capital works. This constitutes unfair
competition for railways and deep water ports, courtesy of the
Canadian taxpayer. Again, the legislation is inconsistent with
the expressed objective of commercialization. It is the partial
pregnancy syndrome that afflicts the government in so many of its
endeavours.
The bill does not address the problem of excessive costs and
featherbedding arising from pilotage monopolies. There is no
incentive to cut pilotage costs by certifying the masters of
Canadian vessels that ply the same inland waters back and forth
on a routine basis or by the employment of available new
technology.
The proposed boards of directors for port authorities are
potential patronage havens as well as being a mechanism for
continued political control. Government participation in
entities which will be managing crown assets is normal and
acceptable but if the government is serious about
commercialization, indirect government control is not. Again, we
are looking at partial pregnancy.
The size of the proposed boards, seven to eleven members, is far
too large for most ports and the majority will be appointed by
the minister, ostensibly in consultation with port users. Ah,
patronage joy.
The Liberals should remember that governments come and
governments go. They will not be forever in power. Do they
really want to set up such a juicy system, not just for
themselves now but for whomever comes behind them? Their
mandatory provision for individual directors to be appointed by
host municipalities and provinces is defensible and sensible.
Each jurisdiction gets one.
It is unfortunate that there is no provision for labour
representation on each board. This could readily be done by
specifying that there be one on each board. It could be done
without increasing the size of the board simply by reducing the
number of ministerial appointments from these famous lists.
1020
The elimination of ports police is problematical. I do not
believe that was well thought out and it should be
reconsidered. There is a lot more to port policing than guarding
the security of cargo.
Sea ports, especially the larger ones like Vancouver, are
wonderful funnels for contraband, for illegal entrance and they
are targets for organized crime. When mobsters get the upper
hand in a port they are extremely hard to dislodge.
Few municipalities have the resources to properly police a port.
If the government is determined to do away with ports police it
should seriously consider establishing a specialized branch
within the RCMP.
Finally, there is no mechanism for the resolution of disputes
with shippers. If the Canada Transportation Act can contain
provisions with respect to railways, why can we not have
something equivalent in Bill C-9 with respect to ports? Why should
they be treated differently?
I cannot read the minister's mind. I do not know the intent of
fast tracking this bill to committee. In theory, getting into
committee early seems like a great idea, a chance for MPs to sit
down and reason together away from the hurly-burly of the House
and work together for the common good. It is a great theory but
in practice in the last Parliament we Reformers learned the hard
way that this is generally a policy for stifling any meaningful
debate and ramming a bill through to the report stage according
to ministerial specifications.
Therefore we do not support the procedure. We will vote against
it. If subsequent events prove that our suspicions were
unjustified I will personally apologize to the minister and
nobody will be happier than I.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, as this is the first time I have spoken in the debate on
the bill, I would like to take the opportunity to thank the voters
of Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans for placing their trust in me
once again in the June 2 election. They may rest assured that I
will do my best to meet their expectations from me as their member
of Parliament.
Right off, I would like to say that the Minister of Transport
earlier presented a true picture of the procedures that led to this
bill's return to the House of Commons.
He probably forget, however, as memory is fallible, or perhaps
he omitted—a little more serious in this instance—to mention
that the bill is back before the House because the members of the
other House, the senators, blocked the bill before Parliament
adjourned prior to the elections. This is more serious in a
democracy.
There was a lot of input on the previous bill, Bill C-44. The
former Minister of Transport, the member for Victoria, confirmed he
had consulted Canadians across the country. The consultations took
place in capitals, communities and among the people. We in the
Bloc proposed a number of amendments to the bill.
The initial consultation cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, if
not millions.
1025
So where does that leave us today? Unfortunately, because of
unelected people appointed either by the ruling party or by the
Conservative party, we must let unelected people interfere with
democracy and completely set aside a piece of legislation that was the
subject of extensive consultations. This is cause for concern. It has to
be denounced because the members of this House have been democratically
elected, they have been sent here by the people of their ridings. Is it
normal and acceptable in this day and age to have unelected senators
come and tell elected members what to do?
I will get to the substance of the bill in a moment. While all this
is going on, the entire maritime industry in Canada and Quebec is
suffering, and that is cause for concern. This puts an end to what I
might call my preliminary remarks. I now come to the bill before us.
First of all, I want to reiterate the Bloc's position on this bill,
for the benefit of the current transport minister. As for the principle
of the bill, we in the Bloc Quebecois agree with it because, except for
the dates, the vast majority of the provisions contained in the bill are
identical to those in former Bill C-44.
In this respect, to avoid making the system even more cumbersome,
it might have been possible, perhaps even advisable, to pass the bill
quickly.
At any rate, the minister can rest assured that, if the transport
committee approves the few changes we are seeking, it will be possible
to proceed quickly with this bill.
We will recall that the government had given Bill C-44, now Bill
C-9 before us, the bombastic name of Canada Marine Act, which was
undeserved, as we in the Bloc Quebecois pointed out, denouncing the fact
that it did not contain—and still does not contain—anything about
shipbuilding, shipyards and the merchant navy. That is a concern.
In 1994, when I was the transportation critic of the official
opposition, the Bloc Quebecois, I suggested in committee a tax policy
designed to promote shipbuilding in Canada and in Quebec, as is done in
several other countries. Unfortunately, the legislation is silent as
regards that proposal.
The bill before us essentially shows how miserably the federal
maritime policy has failed in the past 20 years. The federal government
just realized that its involvement over the years has resulted in costly
and cumbersome bureaucratization as well as ineffective management. In
this regard, I want to congratulate the government, and the current
Minister of Transport and his predecessor, for accepting a proposal
which the Bloc Quebecois had been pushing since 1994, namely to abolish
Ports Canada.
Ports Canada was a fantastic tool for pork barrelling and
patronage.
I remember condemning that situation and putting questions to the former
president of that body, who had engaged in lavish spending. He behaved
as people did when money was not a problem in Canada. He spent tons of
money for suites at the hotel located in the West Edmonton Mall. People
slept in the so-called Truck Room. They slept in pick-up truck boxes
equipped with jacuzzi baths for six to eight people, at a cost of $280
to $300 a night. Ports Canada people slept there.
The parliamentary secretary, who represents the riding of Hamilton
West, is doing the right thing by supporting my comments. I am the one
who told the House about these things, and I am pleased that the
government has accepted the Bloc Quebecois' request to abolish Ports
Canada.
1030
Of course, we are happy to see that the government has also
accepted the Bloc Quebecois' recommendation that compulsory pilotage be
maintained in Canada. Once again, with all the modesty I can muster,
the Bloc Quebecois was the only party to defend pilotage on a Canada
wide scale.
The parliamentary secretary and member for Hamilton West will
recall a report on the future of the St. Lawrence Seaway in which the
Liberal majority even recommended allowing foreign captains to navigate
in Canadian waters, which are dangerous waters—look at the St. Lawrence
River—without a pilot on board.
It was crazy. I told the parliamentary secretary, “You are giving
me arguments to use against you. You are giving me ammunition. Do not
do it, it makes no sense”.
Unfortunately, this was the recommendation the government made in
its majority report. Fortunately, today's bill includes pilotage and we
in the Bloc Quebecois are happy to have, once again, the assurance that
the environment will be protected by qualified maritime pilots such as
those we have on the St. Lawrence, especially those on the Lower
St. Lawrence, in Central Quebec and in the port of Montreal, as far as
Quebec is concerned.
Since I have only one minute left and since, in any event, there
will be another opportunity to speak of it,
I now come to certain points with which we have problems, such as the
divesting of ports with an envelope to undertake unproductive
improvements. The former bill mentioned $125 million. We are still
waiting to hear the amount. If the federal government stops running
ports, it should hand over tools so that they can be improved and
modernized, as it did with airports.
There is one last point that we disagree with completely. Since
the government is no longer running ports, it should also give up its
power to appoint the majority of representatives in local port
authorities. On the one hand, the government is saying that it is
leaving, but on the other it wants to hold onto control of port
authorities.
In conclusion, we are looking forward to some good work in the
transport committee with respect to this bill.
[English]
Ms. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my
party opposes this bill as is for the following reasons.
Bill C-9 will create a patchwork of privately run ports with new
mandates supposedly oriented to financial self-sufficiency. It
seems less likely that these ports will form an integral part of
a coherent national strategy for meeting our transportation and
regional development needs. Instead we will have a set of local
activities which are not linked to a national vision or plan. The
danger arising from the withdrawal of a federal presence in the
port system is that we will be handicapped in relation to our
principal competitor the United States.
The U.S. government has a transportation policy based on the
national interest. It has developed mechanisms to support and
fund national transportation infrastructure. The trust fund
mechanism is used to fund airports, highways, inland waterways
and harbour maintenance. For example in the U.S., dredging of
harbours is done by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and is
financed by the harbour maintenance fund.
Under the proposed legislation we are considering today,
Canadian ports that need dredging will have to pay for it
themselves. This is estimated to cost a port like Saint John
between $1 million to $1.5 million a year. This imbalance in
funding and resources in the absence of a commitment from the
national government will undoubtedly hurt Canada's position in
competing for the lucrative business of international container
cargo and freight.
The proposed privatization will ultimately have negative
implications for many of the people presently working in the port
system and the maritime industry generally. Despite assurances
from the government about job security, it seems likely that as a
new profit driven management approach is broadened jobs will be
lost among the longshoreman and administrative workers who
presently work within the Canada Ports Corporation. There is
evidence from numerous other sectors that short term financial
considerations will inevitably prevail over the preservation of
jobs and the maintenance of fair working conditions.
1035
As productivity and throughput considerations become more
dominant, who will look out for the welfare of the staff who
remain in the service of the ports organization? Cuts to
workforce inevitably put additional pressures on the remaining
staff. The added stress this creates is often reflected in
increasing numbers of industrial accidents. These sorts of
conditions are rarely reflected in this sort of legislation.
Can the government assure us that there will be a fair and
representative cross-section of the different interests who have
a stake in the Canadian port system? Will the federal government
be able to protect the national interest in the future?
In many cases the most important users of the port facilities,
those with a real stake in its performance and fees are the
farmers from the prairie provinces. Under the new arrangements
they will also be granted only one voice on the board. We
believe that the board must be more than just an expression of
the interests of the local business community. There is no
guarantee under the proposed legislation that this will be the
case.
Furthermore will there be a representative of labour on the new
board of directors? As a vital player in the activity of ports,
surely there is a case for union representation on the decision
making structure that will oversee the agencies.
Even more appalling to this scenario especially in light of the
statement by the Minister of Industry that if you did not vote
Liberal do not expect to be treated fairly, and the Prime
Minister's obvious approval of this prostituting of their favours
for votes, two or maybe three members of the board will be
appointed, not elected, and the remaining four to eight members
will be appointed directly or indirectly by the minister.
The former transport minister made the rather arrogant statement
that you do not have to be Sherlock Holmes to check surveillance
monitors and ensure doors are locked in reference to work done by
port police. Although that may be one aspect of the work done, it
is still done in a dangerous environment where without question
criminal activity, drug, people and weapons smuggling is a major
factor.
I think it is irresponsible to suggest that lower cost security
guards should have their lives devalued and put at risk. The
proposal to remove the Canada ports police from the newly created
entity seems an unwise step. Private security firms are not
peace officers and do not have the same range of powers enjoyed
by the police.
It is likely that drug smuggling, already a significant problem,
will increase as a result of this legislation. Neal Jessop,
president of the Canadian Police Association in March 1997 was
quoted as saying that abolishing Canada's ports police will open
the floodgates to the smuggling of drugs, guns and other
contraband by organized crime. What passes through the ports
will end up on the streets of our towns and cities from coast to
coast to coast.
Let us look at the case of Vancouver, for example. The Minister
of Transport at the time said that Canada Ports Corporation will
provide $1 million to B.C. to cover the cost of one year of a
10-person Vancouver city police unit to patrol the port 24 hours
a day. When the $1 million for Vancouver policing runs out it
will be up to the city and the port to determine who should pay
for more.
Ian Whittington a port police officer and president of the Port
Police Association for the Pacific region stated that the level
of policing within Canada's largest and most major port will
digress drastically. Of course Vancouver will not be the only
port affected. St. John's, Newfoundland and Saint John, New
Brunswick, Halifax, Quebec City and Montreal, every part of the
country is going to be affected.
We need to have commitments that will ensure that all Canadians
are safe. The privatization of the ports fits into a pattern of
the gradual withdrawal of the federal government from a host of
activities and functions vital to the well-being of coastal
communities. Cutbacks to the coast guard search and rescue
capacity and the demanning and automation of lighthouses form the
backdrop to the privatization of the ports.
There are estimated to be approximately 500 public ports and
harbours in Canada. It seems safe to assume that communities
with ports smaller than those of Vancouver, Halifax and Montreal
are likely to feel the brunt of this legislation. Why is the
Liberal government turning its back on the legitimate needs of
the smaller coastal communities?
When the existing employees of the ports and the St. Lawrence
seaway are transferred to the new authorities, there is no
provision in the act for the continuation of superannuation
benefits for existing employees within the new regimes, as was
the case with the air traffic controllers when they were
transferred to the not for profit corporation Nav Canada.
It might seem somewhat paranoid to suggest that these types of
things are going to happen. However, I happened to be in
Churchill, Manitoba the day after the signing for the turnover of
the port to the new owner. The prime example of the pilotage
situation came into question as a contract had not been signed
with the pilot who was then going to be working and bringing in
the tugs. Because the contract was not signed and the pilot was
thinking about not taking in the tugs, it was suggested that an
American pilot might be able to bring the tug in instead. Thank
heavens for wiser heads prevailing and immigration seeing fit to
make sure that would not happen. It certainly leads us to agree
with the Bloc member that piloting was a major question.
1040
The bill fails to provide for the capital financing that would
be required to construct new port facilities at some future date.
The submission of the Halifax Port Development Commission is
highly instructive on this point and worth quoting at length:
The funding needed for construction of major port facilities can
only be arranged in part, if at all, in the private sector. No
private sector lender or investor can advance the bulk of such
funding against user commitments which may or may not materialize
when the facilities are completed, and if they do then
materialize, may or may not continue until the funding has been
repaid. Under such a scenario, funding can only come from
governments which have the necessary financial resources and can
justify, in the interests of promoting the economy of their
constituents, the assumption of the attendant commercial risk.
Had Bill C-9 been in effect in the late 1960s, Halifax would
never have been able to build and equip even one container berth,
and the harbour would long ago have fallen into disuse.
Should these ports be privatized? Will they be required to
disclose their capital expenditure plans for local community
input and review? The kind of secrecy that normally shrouds the
investment activities of private companies must not be allowed to
prevail within the ports where a range of public groups have a
vital stake in the financial posture of their ports. Why has the
government not chosen to make mandated public disclosure of all
financial plans a precondition for the transfer of the ports to
the private sector?
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, I rise to
speak on Bill C-9. I have a great deal of respect for the hon.
member in the Liberal Party who chaired the committee and brought
the committee meeting to Saint John, New Brunswick. I really
appreciated that our people had the opportunity to have their
say.
This bill was debated as Bill C-44 in the House during the 35th
Parliament. It later died in the Senate. When this bill was
debated earlier in the House I had a specific concern with
respect to the section that deals with the policing of our ports.
Nothing has changed with the reintroduction of this bill. The
section is still there. But there is a question that I have for
the minister.
This government's intention contained in clause 108 of Bill C-9
is to disband the Ports Canada Police across Canada. It will
have a major negative impact on all Canadian citizens and port
users. With the elimination of the Canada Ports Corporation the
requirement for local port authorities to maintain and pay for
the detachment of Ports Canada Police will disappear. How could
this government allow the Vancouver port police to be disbanded
when we are still debating the bill that allows for that
disbandment? I cannot imagine this has taken place. What
happened to democracy? Where did it go?
I have a copy of a letter that was sent on October 2 to all port
police in Halifax port. The letter said in effect “Here is your
pink slip, this is it, by the end of the year you are gone”.
Those men, like the men in Saint John, have worked for 24 years.
And those who have become superintendents in just the last few
years are getting a larger severance package than the men who
have been there for 24 years. The minister has to step in and
take a look.
The Saint John Ports Canada Police service will be disbanded as
will be the case for all other port detachments if this bill
passes. Not only will well qualified and experienced port police
officers lose their jobs, but port and community protection will
be lost as well.
The policing of Canada's major commercial ports started in the
early 1800s at the port of Quebec with the operation of private
police forces.
1045
In the late 1960s most major ports had a security force, but the
security force was unable to cope with the policing requirements
of the national ports. Smuggling, theft, drug offences, assault
and traffic violations were the order of the day. The serious
escalation of crime in the major commercial ports was very
detrimental to Canada's international trade reputation and raised
public concerns for the safety and security of the ports and of
the communities.
In 1967 the Cassidy report traced the problem of our ports to
the neglect of port policing by port management. That report
revealed the deplorable criminal conditions which existed in the
national port systems across Canada. This of course included my
own city, Saint John.
The National Harbours Board adopted the Cassidy report in 1968.
It reorganized its locally managed and autonomous police and
security forces into a national force. Professional police
officers were hired to command the force at the head office in
Ottawa and at the port police detachments. The National Harbours
Board brought the ports policing up to professional standards
through recruitment, training and supervision. They had to take
and pass eight courses, and members became legally sworn police
officers.
The decision to reorganize the national police force in 1968 was
taken only after study of all other viable options, which were an
RCMP takeover, a provincial police takeover and a municipal
police takeover. Allowing a locally controlled security force
was not even considered, but it is considered by this government
today. It is considered that the municipality's police force can
take over, yet that report said it would not work. It also said
the RCMP could not do it.
With a national ports police force we were safe, but the
citizens and port users witnessed a complete turnaround as the
ports gradually gained a reputation of low cost and low loss with
the change to a security system.
In 1997 the Liberal government declared Canada's ports police
redundant. The minister announced that it would be disbanded,
yet we are debating it today.
The minister made this decision before Bill C-44 was passed.
After it died on the order paper the Minister of Transport of the
day still went ahead with the disbandment. Here we are debating
it today. I have to ask how the government can eliminate the
ports police before the bill becomes law. I have never heard
tell of that before. I am sure that you, Mr. Speaker, have not
either.
The minister is saying “I do not care about democracy. I do
not care about the parliamentary system. I do not care about
debate. I am going to disband it. I am going to move”. I find
that incredible.
Mr. Stan Keyes: A lone voice.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne: I do not know whether I am a lone voice
in the wilderness, but I know that I have every port policeman
behind me all the way.
With Bill C-9 an attempt is being made to download port policing
responsibilities on to the municipal taxpayer. We saw what
happened in Vancouver. The municipal police force in Vancouver
took it over. It got a $1 million cheque from the government. I
do not know how that happened when it has not been agreed to. The
local police in Vancouver took it over but found that there were
so many problems it could not possibly do it without adding 10
more local police officers.
The government has cut transfer payments to the provinces and
the local police departments have been cut. In Saint John 30
police officers have been cut already. There is no way they can
afford to take on the ports without more officers and without
training.
There should be a marine act and there should be a marine unit
in all local police departments. If the bill is passed the boys
who are leaving the port police should be hired by local police
departments. We should also be making sure they are being funded
to allow that to happen.
1050
There have been other examples of major North American ports
abolishing dedicated port policing and all have reverted to a
dedicated port police.
In Toronto, port policing was absorbed by the municipal force.
Experience proved that port policing required a dedicated service
and a specialized marine unit. This had to be created and had to
be paid for by someone, but they did not have the dollars.
At the port of Boston, dedicated policing services were
withdrawn in favour of relying on city resources. Without a
dedicated and fully empowered police agency to target violations
of environmental laws, the pollution in the Boston harbour
increased tenfold and within six months they had to put back the
port police.
The same thing happened in the port of Miami. This is happening
everywhere. They try it but it does not work.
The Ports Canada police currently appears to be our first line
of defence and its demise would be rejoiced by those elements
sitting out there with criminal control of port operations and
access.
It is very evident from the report that a dedicated port police
function should remain. I feel a sense of déjà vu today for we
have been down this road before and the amendments to change the
port policing aspect of the bill were defeated.
I urge all members of the House and indeed members of the
committee on transport to listen to the witnesses that will come
before them. We must not allow Canada to become the country of
choice by criminals.
Mr. Stan Keyes (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on a question of information,
I suppose the clock will run out prior to the conclusion of my
remarks. I would like to continue and conclude after question
period.
In the one minute I was given on the first day of the 36th
Parliament I called on the provincial government of Ontario to
call an independent inquiry into the so-called Plastimet fire in
the north end of my constituency. It has still to respond.
Today I have a little more time so I will first take the
opportunity to thank the constituents of my home town, Hamilton
West, for their overwhelming support, re-electing me to a third
consecutive mandate with 50% of the vote. I promise to continue
to be a strong voice for my home town and to remind myself it is
a privilege to serve in the highest court in the land, the House
of Commons.
On to the business of today, quite frankly I have lost count of
the number of times I have had the privilege on many occasions
both here in the House of Commons and across the country to speak
to a bill that will prepare Canada's marine transportation system
to meet the challenges of the 21st century.
Formerly it was Bill C-44 and now it is Bill C-9, the Canada
Marine Act. Regrettably it was not approved prior to the
dissolution of parliament last April. The government has
reintroduced the legislation in exactly the same form. It is
vitally important to Canada's transportation system. We heard
from industry that it wants to see the bill adopted.
During the summer months the minister and I met all key
stakeholders, including shippers, ship owners, port managers and
pilotage interests. We have consistently heard the marine sector
industry. It wants to see the bill adopted immediately, as soon
as possible.
The government's overall goal is to strengthen Canada's economy
and create a climate that supports job creation and investment.
To support that goal the government took steps to modernize
Canada's transportation system, commercializing transportation
operations, cutting wasteful subsidies and overhauling
legislation.
In all modes of transportation, air, surface and marine, we have
made great progress in moving toward greater efficiency, greater
say for those who use the system, and more local and regional
autonomy. Much has been accomplished at Transport Canada by the
government and by three successive ministers of transport, but
more remains to be done.
1055
Bill C-9 will make it easier for ports to operate according to
business principles and will ensure those most affected by port
related decisions are involved in making them. It will
consolidate and streamline marine regulations, cut red tape,
allow for faster business decisions and help our marine sector
become more competitive.
Let us have a look at the history. For the benefit of those
members who were not with us in the last parliament and to
refresh the memories of those who were, I would like to take a
few minutes in the short time I have left before question period
to review the history of the bill and the development of the
government marine policy.
In 1995 the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transport,
called SCOT for short, undertook a study of the marine sector and
made a number of recommendations to improve the marine system,
many of which were later incorporated into Bill C-44.
Following the SCOT report, Transport Canada held regional
meetings with shippers and industry to discuss the
recommendations. Based on the consultations the government
adopted the national marine policy in December 1995.
I remind members opposite how much work has gone into the bill
in close to three years. We had the SCOT report. We did a study
across the country. We developed a marine policy. We went
across the country. We developed the Canada Marine Act. We went
across the country. We spent many months in committee with
literally hundreds of witnesses and we developed a consensus.
There was give and take across the land by ports, harbour
commissions, pilotage authorities, ferry services, and a
consensus was reached. Because there was give and take, because
there was an air of co-operation among all stakeholders, users
and industry in the system, we were able to come up with the
Canada Marine Act.
They came to us as early as this summer and told us not to come
back to their communities with more bright ideas about how to
modernize the marine sector. They have heard it all. They want
us to get on with the job.
The Speaker: You will have five minutes remaining after
question period.
As it is almost 11 o'clock and we seem very eager to get at it,
we will now have Statements by Members.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
NATIONAL MENOPAUSE AWARENESS MONTH
Mrs. Jean Augustine (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to inform the House that October is
National Menopause Awareness Month.
Menopause is a major health concern of Canadian women. By the
year 2000 approximately four million women will be entering or
will already have experienced menopause. There is a need to
build greater awareness through the dissemination of information
on the effects of menopause.
Menopause can act as a trigger to accelerate the risk of certain
diseases such as osteoporosis, which affects one in four women
because of estrogen depletion.
The Liberal government has made a commitment to women's health
through the establishment of five centres of excellence for
women's health. These centres are mandated to conduct research
and provide information to the public on key health issues
affecting women.
Through the initiative of these centres and the work of other
national organizations such as the Society of Obstetricians and
Gynaecologists of Canada, greater awareness on menopause will
make our health—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Dauphin—Swan River.
* * *
UKRAINIAN CANADIANS
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the richness of Ukrainian culture displayed annually at Canada's
National Ukrainian Festival in my riding of Dauphin—Swan River
stands in sharp contrast to the injustice done to thousands of
Ukrainian Canadians during Canada's national internment
operations of 1914 to 1920.
When war broke out these hard working men, women and children
were categorized as enemy aliens, imprisoned, their property
confiscated, and their basic rights and freedoms removed. Five
thousand Ukrainians were interned in 24 concentration camps
across Canada.
From the 1980s Ukrainian Canadians sought acknowledgement from
the Government of Canada of a wrong and restitution of the wealth
confiscated from internees that still remains in federal coffers.
1100
Despite efforts in 1991 by the member for Kingston and the
Islands the situation remains unchanged. I ask hon. members to
join me in bringing justice and closure to this regrettable event
in our nation's history.
* * *
IMMIGRATION
Ms. Susan Whelan (Essex, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, over 15 million
people cross the Windsor-Detroit border each year. Imagine the
chaos if all those people were required to file a U.S.
immigration form each time they crossed the border. That is what
section 110 of the 1996 illegal immigration act would do if
Canadians are not exempted.
Last month while at the annual Canada-U.S. Parliamentary Association
meeting I raised this issue with U.S. representatives and
senators and I was assured this law would be amended.
Yesterday the Canadian ambassador to the United States met with
U.S. Senator Spencer Abraham, chair of the U.S. Senate
immigration subcommittee, and agreed to form an alliance to
defeat these proposed new border controls.
I commend both the Government of Canada and the senator for this
important initiative. U.S. Senator Spencer Abraham is holding
immigration committee hearings on the effects of the U.S. act. I
encourage all affected Canadians to fax a written submission to
the senator's office at (248) 350-0420 or deliver them to my
office so I can submit them to the U.S. committee.
* * *
[Translation]
NATIONAL FAMILY WEEK
Mrs. Eleni Bakopanos (Ahuntsic, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, National
Family Week is an opportunity to consider the fundamental
importance of families and our relationships with those near and
dear to us.
Once again this year, I have organized a drawing contest for
grade 4 and 5 pupils in the riding of Ahuntsic. They are being
asked to illustrate how they see the family. The three finalists
will have their drawings reproduced in the annual calendar I send
out to every household in the riding.>
[English]
As members of Parliament we have a responsibility to show our
young people, the future leaders of this country, the importance
of promoting the family's well-being. This government
demonstrated its commitment to families through several
initiatives, including the establishment of children's centres of
excellence and an increase in its contribution to the Canada
child tax benefit.
Our families help us to realize our potential by providing us
with the strongest support possible to deal with life's
challenges. This week and throughout the year let us celebrate
our families.
* * *
[Translation]
NATIONAL CO-OPERATIVE WEEK
Mr. Antoine Dubé (Lévis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the week of October
12 to 18 will be National Co-operative Week, with the theme “co-operation
more than ever”.
This is a particularly appropriate one under the
circumstances, since it emphasizes how modern the co-operative
formula still is. It also reminds us of how long co-operatives
have been with us.
Soon the Mouvement Desjardins, founded in Lévis in 1900, will
soon be marking its 100th anniversary. This year has also marked
the 75th anniversary of the Coopérative fédérée de Québec.
The week will also honour the work of the thousands of unpaid
board members in the co-operative movement, who have been
instrumental in the growth of the movement in our communities.
Quebeckers are particularly proud of the co-operative movement,
for Quebec has more co-op members per capita than any other place
in the world.
May I wish everyone a happy Co-operative Week.
* * *
[English]
PAY EQUITY
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, there
are tens of thousands of public servants affected by pay equity.
Many of these are my constituents who call my office continuously
asking when they will receive their benefits.
While the matter is now before the human rights tribunal, I
believe a negotiated resolution is in the best interests of
everyone involved.
I call on our government to continue its work toward a
resolution. The recent $1.3 billion offer is an indication of
Treasury Board's good intentions to make payments to affected
public servants.
I call equally on union president Daryl Bean and his executive
to put aside political differences and work with Treasury Board.
In the best interests of public servants, the union and Treasury
Board should declare their commitment publicly to a negotiated
settlement.
My constituents are demanding action. I encourage them, commend
them and support them.
* * *
RED RIVER FLOODING
Mr. Jake E. Hoeppner (Portage—Lisgar, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
Manitoba residents faced a terrible period of destruction and
loss last spring with the catastrophic Red River flood. Now
months later with winter approaching many residents are still
trying to rebuild their lives.
Instead of receiving flood relief as promised by the federal and
provincial governments, they find themselves caught in the middle
while these two governments argue over who is liable to bear the
costs.
I received a letter from an Ontario resident who sympathizes
with those affected by the flood and with the struggle for
compensation they now face.
1105
She suggests Liberal members of the House should move into
trailers in Ottawa to get an understanding of what Manitobans are
going through.
Last spring the prime minister went to Manitoba to show how he
could throw a bag of sand. When is the government going to
honour its commitments and start throwing some real help to
Manitoba flood victims?
* * *
[Translation]
LAND MINES
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, October 10, 1997 marks a special day for a campaign fought
by a collective of over 1,000 agencies over the past several years.
This group presided by Jody Williams has sought to put an end to
the manufacture and use of land mines.
The Nobel Peace Price represents one of the sweetest victories
for Canadian diplomacy and for the Minister of Foreign Affairs, who
has worked long and hard for this cause.
We have won a battle in the fight for the ban on the
manufacture and use of this weapon of the weak.
However, the fight continues until we can convince the great powers
such as the United States, China and Russia to join Canada this
December here in Ottawa to ratify the treaty.
* * *
THE LATE GILLES BOULET
Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, on Wednesday night, Gilles Boulet passed away. He was one
of the bulwarks of Quebec's education system. We will remember him
as a man who had a major impact on the people of Quebec.
In 1960, Mr. Boulet founded the Centre des études de Trois-Rivières,
which became the Université du Québec in 1978. He
supported the extension of university training to the regions by
encouraging the establishment of the Université du Québec in Hull
and in Abitibi—Témiscamingue. He also oversaw the fortunes of the
Université du Québec for a decade.
Known both at home and abroad, he was appointed an officer of
the Order of Canada in 1985 and received the Légion d'honneur in
1988. He became an officer of the Ordre national du Québec in
On behalf of myself and the Bloc Quebecois, I extend my
sincere sympathies to the family of Mr. Boulet and express our
gratitude for his great gift to Quebec society.
* * *
[English]
LAND MINES
Ms. Beth Phinney (Hamilton Mountain, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
we are pleased that the Nobel peace prize has been given to those
working to ban land mines worldwide.
We hope this award will encourage the United States to join the
over 100 countries planning to come to Canada in December to sign
the Ottawa agreement.
We especially want to congratulate our Minister of Foreign
Affairs for his leadership in achieving this international ban.
* * *
VIOLENCE
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
it is with great sadness and heartfelt regret that I rise today
to offer sincere condolences to the Holtam and McKelvey families
and their friends. They have suffered a great loss in the
senseless murders of Leonora Holtam and her 6-year old daughter
Jenny.
This tragedy occurred five minutes from my own home in Mission,
British Columbia. We soberly consider our own families in the
precious gift of life and mourn the tragic loss of the Holtams.
As members of this House I believe we can stand united against
such violent and tragic acts which so horribly affect so many.
I respectfully limit my words today to use the rest of my time
to pray for young Cody Holtam who is fighting for his life and
for the families and friends of the victims whose lives will be
forever changed by this tragedy.
* * *
YOUTH EMPLOYMENT
Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parkdale—High Park, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Liberal government's job strategy is working for
Canada's youth.
We have just had the longest run of monthly job growth since
1994 and Canada's young people are feeling the improvement;
63,000 new jobs for youth since May, the best four month
performance of the 1990s. The youth unemployment rate is down
from 17.2% in May to 16.4%.
There is still a lot of work to do. We are committed to work
with other governments, the private sector, communities and young
people to equip them for the future.
In anticipation of national co-op week and international credit
union day—
1110
The Speaker: The hon. member for Churchill River.
* * *
NORTH AMERICAN INDIGENOUS GAMES
Mr. Rick Laliberte (Churchill River, NDP):
[Editor's Note: Member spoke in Cree]
[English]
I rise today to give tribute and acknowledgement to
the 8,000 young participants in the North American indigenous
games that were hosted in Victoria, British Columbia this past
summer. The impact of experiencing and sharing the involvement
of fellow athletic and cultural participants from all over North
America is a profound accomplishment.
Congratulations to the organizers and the people of British
Columbia for making this event another success. It is our hope
that these games will be a base for indigenous peoples'
participation in the world's Olympics.
I would also like to recognize the four time champions of these
events, Team Saskatchewan. Canada should be proud of its
aboriginal peoples.
* * *
EMPLOYMENT
Mr. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
statistics show that we are indeed seeing major improvements
around the country in employment. Newfoundland, Prince Edward
Island and New Brunswick had significant reductions in the their
unemployment rates last month. There has been a substantial
shift in the country from part time to full time employment in
the month of September.
The situation for youth has improved tremendously over the last
four months, with a nearly 1% drop in the unemployment rate.
Employment is up by nearly 300,000 jobs since February. The
unemployment rate is 2.2 percentage points lower and private
sector employment is up by a million jobs since the government
took office.
It is very clear that the job strategy of the government is
working for Canadians.
* * *
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
summer of 1997 was very cruel on agriculture producers in Nova
Scotia as dry weather conditions created the worst growing season
in 100 years. Crop shortages are creating fear and apprehension
among farmers who dread the long winter ahead. The situation for
beef farmers is particular severe. Feed shortages of 50% mean
that by February they will run out of feed for their herds. The
prospect has many so concerned that they are putting their cattle
on the market now and prices are depressed lower than
those in the 1950s.
Dairy farmers have sought a price increase of 6 cents per litre
to ensure they can buy feed for their cattle. Potato yields are
likely to be two-thirds or less of the normal yields,
jeopardizing the viability of this industry. Nova Scotia farmers
face an extremely grim winter.
The Government of Nova Scotia has requested help and the prime
minister himself has been asked to intervene but to date there
has been no reply. I urge the minister of agriculture to stop
delaying and meet with his provincial—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Sault Ste. Marie.
* * *
JUSTICE
Mr. Carmen Provenzano (Sault Ste. Marie, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, here are the disturbing facts surrounding the recent
sentencing of three convicted rapists in Montreal. Found guilty
of gang raping and sodomizing a pregnant teenager, they were
sentenced to two years less a day. The court was told the men
held a 17-year old girl captive for more than 12 hours,
repeatedly assaulted her, and at one point dangled her over an
apartment balcony to deter her from reporting the incident. One
of the rapists was the father of the victim's unborn child, a
gruesome circumstance which apparently prompted her to have an
abortion.
In announcing the sentence the judge said the crown attorney's
recommendation for prison terms of 10 to 12 years was grossly
exaggerated. He also said that while the rapists' actions were
deplorable, the victim had no signs of provable violence.
In my opinion there is no such thing as a non-violent rape.
There is no such thing as torture without pain. As
parliamentarians—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Cumberland—Colchester.
* * *
HIGHWAYS
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr. Speaker,
this week I met with and outlined in detail to the director of
investigations at the Federal Bureau of Competition aspects of
the Highway 104 agreement that contravened the Competition Act. I
also met this week with the auditor general to point out areas
that break terms of the federal-provincial SHIP agreement. Both
have shown an interest. In the last two weeks I have asked the
Minister of Transport and the parliamentary secretary questions
regarding untendered contracts, and with all due respect, their
answers are incorrect.
1115
Now the Prime Minister has written me a letter dated September
30, and with all due respect, his information is incorrect as
well.
It is clear that the top levels of the government do not
understand that this deal involves contracts that have gone
untendered, funding formulas that have been improperly changed
and federal funds that are being used in a way never intended.
The time has come for the Prime Minister and the Minister of
Transport to realize they have a serious problem and they must
contact the Nova Scotia government and fix it.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
RCMP INVESTIGATIONS
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday we saw the minister of the treasury board squirming
about a criminal investigation of his own office. He gave four
different answers in four minutes. Surely that is a new Canadian
record.
Now that he has had 24 hours to get his alibi straight, I was
wondering if he could tell us just what—
The Speaker: Yesterday I asked the hon. member to please
be judicious in her choice of words. I do not want her to push
me too far, because then she will lose a question.
Miss Deborah Grey: Mr. Speaker, let me ask the minister
this question. Could he tell the Canadian public what he knew
about this investigation and the search warrant and why he knew
it in the first place?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I am glad to have the occasion to put the facts straight.
The first time I learned about a mandate that would possibly
have been issued for a search warrant to search the regional
offices of the ministers in Quebec was during the course of
question period yesterday, in a question from the Conservative
member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
it is pretty hard to even read from a prepared script.
The RCMP investigation into the illegal fundraising tactics
first of all was delayed until after the election. Then when the
police did get two search warrants, they only acted against the
party bagman, not the Liberal minister to whom he answered.
I want to ask the question one more time. Who in the world is
running this investigation, the RCMP or the Liberal minister of
the treasury board.
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the answer is very clear. The investigation is being
run by the RCMP at arm's length from the government and at arm's
length from ministers.
I want to tell the hon. member, after her totally wrong
assertions about grants in the Prime Minister's riding, not only
should she apologize but she should not be taken seriously on
anything she says in the House on any subject.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
we are coming up with the facts. There are a lot more where
those came from and the House will hear more about them.
Somebody, somewhere on the inside was giving special lists of
these companies to Liberal bagmen so they could shake some cash
out of these people. Somebody, somewhere on the inside was
giving the minister confidential information about the RCMP
investigation and secret, and I note, secret search warrants. The
minister said yesterday “we were well organized.” That is the
point. You betcha.
Just how well organized is this Shawinigan shakedown?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I will continue to indicate clearly what the facts are because
these are allegations that are totally without foundation.
One of my employees was listening to the debate yesterday and
immediately called Montreal, relayed the message to my
legislative assistant who was here in the lobby and who sent me a
note through a page which said that in Montreal there have been
no search warrants executed. Those are the facts. That is how I
knew.
1120
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, we
have just learned about another tainted fundraising deal that was
consummated in the heat of the Liberals' re-election passion.
The federal government cut a cheque to Les Confections St. Elie
for $62,108 two days after the minister for HRD called in the
police. Les Confections St. Elie then donated $1,500 to the
Prime Minister's personal election war chest.
Why did the minister send that big cheque through just two days
after the RCMP were involved? Was it because they gave a $1,500
donation to the Prime Minister's election fund?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, that is ludicrous. All
projects from the transitional jobs fund are based on merit. That
is absolutely clear.
As of this morning there have been nine projects in the Prime
Minister's riding. Seven of them did not give a cent to the
Liberal Party.
A representative of Mégatec company said very clearly this
morning that he gave money to the Liberal Party without being
pressured by Mr. Corbeil or anyone, and received the project
strictly on its merits—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Fraser Valley.
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
this Shawinigan shakedown can no longer be written off as an
isolated incident.
The minister admits that at least five companies were approached
for campaign donations in return for government grants. We have
found four other examples of companies receiving money from this
tainted fund after they made donations to the Prime Minister. In
fact, Les Confections St. Elie received a further grant of
$220,000 after the Prime Minister was re-elected.
Why have they allowed this transition jobs fund to be misused as
the Prime Minister's private election slush fund?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I could also give him the
example of the Ryder Travel Group which has received a $600,000
grant and has only contributed to the Conservative Party, not a
cent to the Liberal Party. It is based on merit.
Also I can give an example which pleased the official
opposition. The hon. member for St. Albert was very pleased to
write to me on July 24 supporting the transitional jobs fund in
the St. Albert constituency, with funds going to Alexander Wood
Products.
I could tell them—
[Translation]
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the President of the Treasury Board.
Yesterday, the minister finally admitted that a warrant had been
issued to search his Montreal office, but he said it had not been
executed.
Who informed the minister of the existence of a search warrant if
it has yet to be executed?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and Minister
responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I already said,
I learned of the possible existence of a warrant when a Conservative
member indicated yesterday that a warrant had been issued and then gave
its number.
At that point, one my assistants checked with our Montreal office
and was told that no search had been carried out. This is why I said
that while a warrant may have been issued, it had not been executed.
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
according to information we checked with various sources this morning,
search warrants issued in the course of criminal proceedings are only
made public after they are executed, when a report is tabled in the
court house.
Who informed the minister that a warrant had been issued but not
executed?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and Minister
responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I already answered
the question. But it is a very good question, since I learned of the
existence of a warrant when a Conservative member told us.
The real question is: How did the Conservative member know that a
warrant had been issued, and also knew its number, since he mentioned it
in the House?
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is
for the President of the Treasury Board, because the more he tries to
explain, the less clear it gets and the less we understand.
Yesterday, when asked by journalists how he knew about the search
warrant, his answer was, and I quote: “Because we are well organized. We
checked and we were told it was not executed”.
1125
My question is very clear. Was the minister suggesting he knew
about the search ahead of time because he had access to privileged
information?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and Minister
responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have already given
a very clear answer to this question. One of my employees phoned the
regional office in Montreal and was told that no search warrant had been
executed. This information was then relayed to my legislative assistant,
who mentioned to me that no search warrant had been executed. That is
how it happened. It is quite simple.
Perhaps it is worth repeating that allegations were made by the
opposition regarding one of my employees, and Radio-Canada had to
retract yesterday. I think I should warn opposition members that the
same could happen to them.
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker, they can stop
the melodramatics. When the minister says that they are “well
organized”, does this mean that a minister's office which is under
investigation might be informed of a search ahead of time? That is the
question.
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and Minister
responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am saying that
what is important to know is how the Conservative member, who disclosed
the information in the House, had found out? That is the real question.
[English]
Mr. Chris Axworthy (Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, we have heard a lot about Liberal influence peddling
over the last few days. You know what they say, if you throw a
rock and you hear a squeal you have probably hit a pig. And we
have heard a lot of squealing on this—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Go directly to your question, please.
Mr. Chris Axworthy: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the
Deputy Prime Minister. When did the arm's length relationship
with the RCMP and the government end?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the relationship continues as it was in the past. The
arm's length relationship is still there as it should be.
My hon. friend in his squealing has not made a valid assertion.
He should look at himself in the mirror before he presents these
unwarranted premises to his questions.
Mr. Chris Axworthy (Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, NDP):
Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Prime Minister and the President of
the Treasury Board indicated that they knew what the RCMP was
doing.
Why did the Liberal government call in the RCMP on this
investigation? Why did it not call in the Sûreté du Québec, the
provincial police, which should be looking into this question?
Is it because the government knew it would get better, more
regular reports from the RCMP than it would from the sûreté?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
this is an unwarranted slur on one of the finest police forces in
the world. The assertion, which is false, is particularly
strange coming from the hon. member who comes from the province
of Saskatchewan, the historic home of the RCMP.
I think his constituents will soundly criticize him for this
unwarranted slur. It is totally unjustified. It is perfectly
logical that the hon. minister thought that since these
allegations related to matters—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC): Mr.
Speaker, yesterday in response to my question about a search
warrant at his Montreal office, the minister told me it was
irrelevant. Then he said that the warrant may have been
executed. He then said that he knew of a warrant that may have
been executed. Finally he said, and told us again today, that he
learned about it from me. This does not sound well organized.
It is obvious that the minister does not know or does not want
us to know anything about this matter. Can the minister at least
clear up one thing for us today? How can a field organizer know
about pending applications, the stage of the applications and the
fact that they were on his desk?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the real question is how did the member know. I learned about
it from him in the House. The Conservative member mentioned at
the same time that there was, which I do not know. The member
also mentioned the number of the search warrant which I do not
know.
1130
The real question here is how did he know the information about
there being a search warrant?
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question again to the minister is
very simple. Will the minister come clean and tell us—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: I am having a difficult time hearing the
question and I know we all want to hear it.
Mr. Peter MacKay: Can the minister come clean and tell us
by whom and how Mr. Corbeil was informed that applications
awaiting approval by the government were sitting on his desk? Can
he tell us that, please?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
can the member come clean and tell us how he had information that
was supposed to be confidential?
* * *
TAXATION
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
Liberaldom was rocked yesterday by the comments of New Brunswick
Premier Frank McKenna. Now free from Liberal office, the premier
can honestly say that federal transfer payments and income
support had become the opiate of the Atlantic region. The premier
instead suggests that maritime businesses be stimulated by
lowering taxes. Imagine that.
My question to the finance minister is, will the minister take
this frank advice and make broad based tax cuts this government's
number one priority?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
am delighted to see this last minute conversion by the member for
the Reform Party.
In the last House the great advantage of the harmonized sales
tax was that it substantially reduced taxes for small and medium
size businesses in Atlantic Canada. That is why the then premier
called for it and the other premiers in Atlantic Canada called
for it. It was to lower the tax burden on those who were
creating jobs. I am delighted to see that the hon. member now
recognizes the wisdom of that approach.
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
Premier McKenna said that he can finally speak his mind now that
he has stepped down from office. I wonder if the minister across
the way can actually say the same. To point to harmonized tax
cuts does not at all address my question.
We have a national unemployment rate of 9%. It is time for the
government to take off its rose coloured glasses and look at real
solutions.
Will this government listen to the millions clamouring for tax
relief or is it still stuck with the old vision of big government
spending?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the member undoubtedly saw this morning that there were in fact
16,000 new jobs created and over 279,000 new jobs created since
we have taken office. More important, the vast majority of those
jobs have been permanent full time jobs. Not only that, but we
have just come through the best four month period of job creation
for young Canadians since 1990. This government is creating
jobs. Canadians—
The Speaker: The hon. member for
Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok.
* * *
[Translation]
FISHING INDUSTRY
Mr. Yvan Bernier (Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Fisheries and
Oceans.
Last July, during a visit to my riding, the Minister of Fisheries
and Oceans said, and I quote: “It is clear that a certain transition
will be required for the Atlantic groundfish strategy ending next
May”.
Now that the auditor general has made public the failure of
government policy, which is tarnishing the reputation of coastal
communities, can the minister now tell us what transition measures he
intends to put in place?
[English]
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question. I did
visit his riding, Gaspé, as he indicated. I pointed out at that
time in discussions with fishers in that area that we have too
many boats and too many fishermen out there chasing too few fish.
We have not had the recovery of northern cod stocks in
particular that we would like. Therefore it will be necessary to
continue with rationalization of the fleet and a reduction of the
number of licences. These are programs that will come forward in
due course. I should point out however—
1135
The Speaker: The hon. member
Bonaventure—Gaspé—îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvan Bernier (Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, the minister's irresponsibility is affecting 22,000
people.
Are we to understand from what the minister has just said that he
will be leaving fisheries workers in the lurch as of May 1998, when his
government had promised assistance until 1999? We need to know what is
going to happen.
[English]
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I was saying a moment ago, we realize
there have to be some transitional measures with respect to
licence retirement. This will affect fishers in Atlantic Canada,
including the area of Gaspé.
I would point out to the hon. member that the TAGS program will
continue until May 1998. My colleague the hon. minister of human
resources has put in place a process for analysing the impact of
the termination of the TAGS program. We will await of course
decisions in due course.
* * *
EDMONTON INSTITUTION FOR WOMEN
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, Jan Fox,
the warden of the Edmonton Institution for Women deliberately and
knowingly placed Denise Fayant in a dangerous environment that
led to her murder. A year and a half later the Edmonton city
police are now conducting a criminal investigation into her
activity based upon the possibility of criminal negligence. I ask
the solicitor general, will he immediately suspend Jan Fox from
her position until this criminal investigation is over?
Mr. Nick Discepola (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor
General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I want to assure the
House that Correctional Service Canada is co-operating fully with
this investigation. It seems to me ironic that when we have
similar incidents in men's prisons, the member does not call for
the suspension of the warden.
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, in
response to previous calls for her resignation, Jan Fox has
refused stating “People are murdered in institutions all the
time”. This is a shocking and at least an amoral statement by
an administrator who is responsible for the lives and safety of
prisoners under her care.
I ask the solicitor general what measures has he taken to hold
Warden Fox accountable for her contribution to the murder of
Denise Fayant?
Mr. Nick Discepola (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor
General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am shocked. This
member has already prejudged the warden of the Edmonton
institution before she had a fair hearing.
I would like to quote a member of the prison advisory committee
in the Edmonton Journal this morning: “It feels to me
like there is a witch hunt going on”. I would also like to quote
from the president of that same advisory committee who said:
“Why are we looking for one person to blame? It seems to me
that the member of the committee has agreed to work with him”.
I am wondering who is really on the witch hunt here. Let the
investigation take its course. Let the RCMP do their job.
* * *
[Translation]
SEARCH AND RESCUE HELICOPTERS
Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is for
the Minister of National Defence.
The government is planning to buy 15 search and rescue helicopters.
We have learned that Augusta Westland's Cormorant model has apparently
been selected by the government.
How can the government justify choosing the same type of helicopter
as the one in the contract it cancelled at great expense in 1993?
[English]
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have made no decision as to which
helicopter we are going to purchase. There are four finalists in
the bidding process.
We still have the matter in process. Absolutely no decision has
been made. But I expect that it will soon be made because we
need to get good equipment, new equipment for our search and
rescue operations because they are saving a great many Canadian
lives. They provide a very valuable service.
[Translation]
Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in view of the
very negative impact of the government's 1993 decision on the Montreal
area, does the minister not agree that the government should seriously
look at the offer that would result in the greatest spinoffs for
Montreal and surrounding areas?
1140
[English]
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, whatever decision is made it is going to create
jobs here in Canada. I hope that they will be distributed as
widely as possible so that the maximum number of Canadians can
benefit, but again I reiterate that we have made no decision.
The decision to cancel that previous contract was made because
it was not an affordable product. It was far too much money, far
too much equipment that was not necessary. What we are doing here
is we are looking to get good value for the taxpayers and good
operational equipment. But we have not, I reiterate, decided on
which helicopters to purchase.
* * *
KINGSTON PENITENTIARY
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, can
you imagine a cop killer in the Kingston Penitentiary with a meat
cleaver? I find that like a fairy tale but it is indeed a fact.
Not only that, the authorities are issuing this killer a cleaver
or a knife to go to work in the kitchen along with 20 other
inmates who all work together with one guard. And I might add
that the guard is a tad bit nervous. I talked to him personally.
Does the solicitor general condone such ridiculous situations
that exist in the penitentiaries?
Mr. Nick Discepola (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor
General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the solicitor
general's office and the correctional service staff are
constantly monitoring inmates. We often have searches where we do
find such weapons made by hand. Fortunately we deal with them at
that time.
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, these
weapons are not made by hand. They are issued by the authorities
to these guys. They take the guns away from the guards and they
issue knives to the killers in Kingston Penitentiary.
The guards have a number of problems that are happening. They
are afraid they are going to be dragging bodies out of that
penitentiary if something is not done quickly and now.
The guards have proposed some very cost effective solutions to
the problems that exist in Kingston Penitentiary. The minister
and his office has the authority to make the immediate changes
necessary to protect people in that penitentiary. Will he do it
now?
Mr. Nick Discepola (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor
General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is not a question
of doing it now, it is a question of an ongoing commitment to the
employees who work diligently. We will take a look at each
incident.
We have advisory committees that work with the inmate
committees. We look at the individual situations and we take the
necessary measures.
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les
Basques, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human
Resources Development.
Again yesterday, the minister did not respond to my question
concerning the Auditor General's severe criticism of the way the
government is managing the employment insurance fund.
Today I would like to have a clear answer. Can the minister
tell us what amount of employment insurance fund reserve is
reasonable, according to his department's analysis?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, what the Auditor General's report
was suggesting is that certain information might not be clear.
What I am saying, as I told the hon. member yesterday, is that
the information on the employment insurance fund is, in my view,
perfectly appropriate. It is already published with the federal
budget. It is also published in the estimates and in the
documentation provided each year when contribution rates are
announced.
The information, therefore, seems to me to be crystal clear,
and transparent. Technical analyses show us that attention must be
paid to the results.
The hon. member ought to note also that the Auditor General
had praise for—
The Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. minister. The
hon. member for Brampton Centre.
* * *
[English]
EMPLOYMENT
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources
Development.
After several months of a continued drop in the unemployment
rate, today's job figures show that unemployment stayed the same
in September. How does the minister explain these figures and
especially what is the situation on job creation for our young
people in Canada?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I welcome that question
very much.
The numbers that we saw yesterday are quite interesting. It is
true that Canadians across the land do have a feeling of
optimism. There is an optimism out there precisely when they
look at the numbers.
1145
Indeed 230,000 real jobs have been created in the last six
months, many of them for young Canadians. Just this month we
lost three-tenths of a point in youth unemployment.
We have created a number of jobs. We are on the right track but
more needs to be done.
* * *
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Derrek Konrad (Prince Albert, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
auditor general reported this week that aboriginal youth are
killing themselves. Their suicide rate is five to eight times
higher than that of the general population.
Will anyone in the government, as the minister is not in the
House, admit to failing our aboriginal youth and begin—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: I know we are a new parliament but we never
mention whether or not a person is absent in either our questions
or our answers.
Would you go directly to the question.
Mr. Derrek Konrad: Will the Minister of Indian Affairs
and Northern Development admit to failing our aboriginal youth in
this regard in its programs and begin developing some kind of a
plan to end this human tragedy right now?
[Translation]
Mr. Bernard Patry (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Indian Affairs and Northern Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to rise in response to the question asked by the hon.
member from the Reform Party.
I would just like to tell him that, as regards the RCAP, the
report of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, the
government will soon release its response on all issues,
particularly the ones we take most to heart: youth and the suicide
rates among aboriginal people.
[English]
Mr. Derrek Konrad (Prince Albert, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
chapter 13 of the auditor general's report reveals that the
health department has known for 10 years that aboriginal people
have been suffering prescription drug abuse that leads to death.
The department's veil of secrecy has been torn away and the
minister cannot hide behind it any longer.
What specific action will the minister take to discipline those
in his department who caused untold suffering to Canada's
aboriginals?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the Department of Health is responsible for delivering uninsured
health benefits to aboriginal communities across the country.
Some six million claims are made every year for prescription drug
usage in those communities.
It is true this problem has been known for 10 years. Throughout
that time the health department has worked with provincial
authorities and with the first nations to address the problem.
By the end of this year, December 31, we will have in place
technology across the country to help pharmacists detect abuse
and to reduce the problem the member refers to.
* * *
EMPLOYMENT
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my question
is for the Minister of Finance.
Despite of all the cheer leading we heard this morning,
Canadians woke up to the cruel reality that unemployment is stuck
at 9%, a level which it has been at or worse for the past 84
consecutive months. To top it off, the Minister of Finance says
that he will have to increase interest rates and kill off more
jobs.
Does the minister want to be remembered as the Minister of
Finance or as the notorious killer of Canadian jobs?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member has been in the House long enough to
know that he is speaking nonsense.
We have embarked on a very steady process of job creation. The
comments of the minister earlier on youth unemployment is
something all Canadians can take a great deal pride in.
He also knows that last week long term interest rates and
mortgage rates came down to a record level. The monetary
stimulus the Bank of Canada has provided over the course of the
last four years is paying off.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, NDP): Mr. Speaker, how can
the Minister of Finance stand there, let alone his colleagues
cheer, when we have 1.4 million unemployed people? There is a 9%
unemployment rate, continuing month after month after month, 64
consecutive months at 9% or worse, and he says the government is
doing a decent job. That is simply not right.
Will he at least tell the Governor of the Bank of Canada that he
will not tolerate an increase in interest rates? He knows the
recovery is consumer led and that even a half per cent increase
will result in that being thwarted.
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Canadians know that when we took office over 200,000 jobs had
been lost for the previous three years prior to 1993.
Since we have taken office the private sector has created over a
million jobs.
1150
Why is the NDP arguing against the very same policy that Labour
brought in when the new Labour government was elected in England?
Is it because the NDP is back somewhere in the 14th century and
refuses to recognize the necessity to evolve?
Hon. Jean J. Charest (Sherbrooke, PC): Mr. Speaker, every
time we ask the government about the plight of the unemployed,
people who are out of a job and who are looking for some hope,
all we get is warmed over rhetoric from the previous campaign,
blaming the previous governments, blaming provincial governments,
blaming the private sectors, or quoting statistics to people who
are actually looking for some hope and a job.
The Minister of Finance just told the member of the NDP that his
assertion was nonsense. Let me quote to him what the Minister of
Finance said when in opposition and there were rising interest
rates. He said, and I quote—
The Speaker: The hon. member on his supplementary
question.
Hon. Jean J. Charest: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of
Finance said young Canadians would begin to ask themselves if
there was a future for them in this country.
What is the jobs policy of a government that allows interest
rates to increase when it is not necessary, has high UI premiums
and has CPP premiums that will take $11 billion out of the
economy and hurt jobs? What is the job policy of the government?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I would be delighted to tell the hon. member what our
jobs policy is.
When his government was in power, 370,000 full-time jobs were
lost. Since we have taken office 900,000 jobs have been created.
When his government was in office, real disposable income was
down by 8%. Since we have taken office it is going up.
When his government was in office net worth per household was
stagnant. Since we have taken office it has gone up by 6.8%.
Their government did not produce; our government has produced.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
The Speaker: The hon. member for Vancouver Kingsway.
Ms. Sophia Leung: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the
Minister of Foreign Affairs.
Canadians have a grave concern over—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Is the hon. member in her seat?
Some hon. members: No.
Hon. Hedy Fry: Go to your seat.
The Speaker: The hon. member will go directly to her
question.
Ms. Sophia Leung: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the
Minister of Foreign Affairs.
Canadians have grave concern over the recent incident in Jordan.
The elite—
The Speaker: We will come back. The hon. member for
Dartmouth.
* * *
1155
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Ms. Wendy Lill (Dartmouth, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my question
is for the Minister of Human Resources Development. This week
the Public Service Commission reported the efforts to bring
employment equity to those with disabilities were going in
reverse. There are now fewer persons with disabilities in the
public service than there were 10 years ago.
Yesterday the supreme court ruled that disabled and deaf persons
have a right to effective communication when receiving health
care. The government has a clear obligation to Canadians with
disabilities to take immediate action to respond to these
challenges.
When will the government announce a plan to address the
employment and access problems that face disabled Canadians?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the government deeply cares about people with disabilities. It
is part of our various plans to try to increase their numbers in
the public service.
In the last report we indicated that we increased the number of
various visible minorities, but unfortunately in the area of the
handicapped we have to make even greater efforts in future years.
* * *
PUBLIC WORKS
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Tobique—Mactaquac, PC): Mr. Speaker,
it was said in the auditor general's report the other day that
there are now over 20,000 credit cards loose in federal
government offices.
The report indicates that the regulations governing the use of
these cards are not properly enforced, meaning there is nothing
to prevent civil servants from spending taxpayers' money on
personal items or from lending their government cards out to
friends.
Will the minister of public works bring in proper controls to
ensure there are no abuses of taxpayers' money?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the government welcomes the auditor general's report on this
issue. The report also mentions there is no significant amount
of damage or loss at the present time but there is certainly room
to strengthen the framework and the controls.
In November 1997 the Treasury Board will issue the best
practices guide for departments about acquisition cards.
* * *
FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Ms. Sophia Leung (Vancouver Kingsway, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
could the Minister of Foreign Affairs tell us what commitment he
has received from the Government of Israel regarding the illegal
use of passports?
Some hon. members: Good question.
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for her timely and well
placed question.
I am very pleased to tell the House that I received a written
communiqué from the minister of foreign affairs of Israel this
morning, first apologizing for the fact that any misuse of our
passports may have caused inconvenience or problems of safety for
any Canadian citizen and, second, agreeing that Israel will now
undertake measures to ensure it will never happen again.
* * *
CRTC
Mr. Jim Pankiw (Saskatoon—Humboldt, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
last Friday I raised concern that the CRTC violated its own
guidelines by awarding a wireless cable broadcasting licence to a
telephone monopoly, Teleglobe's Look TV.
The Minister of Canadian Heritage not only avoided my question
but displayed a profound lack of intellectual capacity by
suggesting that I was somehow in contempt of court.
I would like a sensible answer directly from the Minister of
Industry. Why does the Liberal government condone the CRTC
violating its own guidelines? Does the government want more
power for monopolies or less choice for consumers?
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am sure the hon. member has respect for process as do
all members of the House.
There are processes involved in hearing applications for
licensing where some of the allegations of the nature he has made
are present. They can be adjudicated by the courts where there
are disagreements on policy or other grounds. There is an appeal
to the governor in council and I am sure he respects that
process.
* * *
1200
[Translation]
THE ENVIRONMENT
Mr. René Laurin (Joliette, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is
for the Minister of the Environment.
Twenty-four years after the Irving Whale went down in the Gulf
of St. Lawrence, the people of the Magdalen Islands are still
waiting for a proper decontamination of the floor of the Gulf of
St. Lawrence polluted by 150 kilograms of PCBs.
When will the minister deign to listen to the watchdog
committees, including that of the Magdalen Islands, that are
calling for action to deal once and for all with what the
government itself is calling a time bomb.
[English]
Mrs. Karen Kraft Sloan (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister
of the Environment, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the minister has been
working with the people in the area. She has had consultations.
It was as a result of the consultations that the Irving
Whale was lifted to avoid a terrible environmental disaster.
* * *
[Translation]
INDIVIDUAL MEMBER'S EXPENDITURES
The Deputy Speaker: I have the honour to table the document
entitled “Individual Member's Expenditures for the Fiscal Year
1996/97”.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[English]
ORDER IN COUNCIL APPOINTMENTS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to table, in both official languages, a number of order
in council appointments which were made by the government.
Pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 110(1) these are
deemed referred to the appropriate standing committees, a list of
which is attached.
* * *
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have the honour to present the third report of the Standing
Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding the associate
membership of some committees.
If the House gives its consent, I intend to move concurrence in
the third report later this day.
* * *
STANDING ORDERS
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I believe that you would find
unanimous consent for the following motion. I move:
That Standing Order 95 be deleted and the following substituted
therefor:
(1) When an item of Private Members' Business that is votable
is under consideration, no Member shall speak for more than ten
minutes, provided that the Member moving the item may speak for
not more than twenty minutes.
(2) When an item of Private Members' Business that is not
votable is under consideration, no Member shall speak for more
than ten minutes, provided that the Member moving the item may
speak for not more than fifteen minutes and provided that the
said Member may, if he or she chooses, speak again for not more
than five minutes, commencing five minutes before the conclusion
of the hour during which the said item is to be considered.
This is an amendment to the standing orders.
(Motion agreed to)
* * *
1205
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
FINANCE
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.) moved:
That the Standing Committee on Finance be permitted to adjourn
from place to place within Canada during its proceedings pursuant
to Standing Order 83(1), and that the necessary staff do
accompany the committee.
(Motion agreed to)
PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
move that the third report of the Standing Committee on Procedure
and House Affairs, presented to the House earlier this day, be
concurred in.
(Motion agreed to)
* * *
PETITIONS
CO-OP HOUSING
Mr. Raymond Bonin (Nickel Belt, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have two petitions from my constituents asking the minister
responsible for Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation to
immediately suspend negotiations on social housing with the
province of Ontario and to resume negotiations only if the
minister proceeds under publicly declared principles established
with the input of co-operative housing stakeholders.
CONDITIONAL SENTENCING
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
have several petitions to present to the House. These names are
in addition to the many on petitions that I have already
presented in the House.
The first petition indicates that the petitioners are against
the conditional sentencing provisions put forward in the last
Parliament.
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
second petition is signed by some 234 people who support my
private member's bill against the joy riding provisions of the
Criminal Code.
HERBAL REMEDIES
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
third petition concerns the government's treatment of herbal
remedies. I support the petition.
SEX OFFENDERS
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
have now presented to the House a total of 34,000 names on
petitions regarding sexual offences, about the way sex offenders
are supervised and the way their records are kept.
This is the largest petition I have had to date on that subject.
RIGHTS OF THE CHILD
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
have other petitions which I wish to present regarding the UN
convention on the rights of the child.
I am happy to table these petitions on behalf of my
constituents.
HIGHWAYS
Mr. Nick Discepola (Vaudreuil—Soulanges, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to present three petitions, two of which
deal with the upgrading of the national highway system.
NATIONAL UNITY
Mr. Nick Discepola (Vaudreuil—Soulanges, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to present a petition regarding Canadian
unity.
The petitioners call for the indivisibility of Canada. They say
that the boundaries of Canada, its provinces, its territories and
waters may be modified only through a free vote of all Canadian
citizens, as guaranteed by the charter of rights and freedoms or
through an amending formula, as stipulated in the Canadian
Constitution.
TAXATION
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, NDP): Mr. Speaker, it is my
pleasure to rise pursuant to Standing Order 36 to present a
number of petitions on behalf of the residents of the city of
Kamloops and a number of surrounding communities.
The first petition deals with a concern of constituents
regarding our present tax system. I do not want to go through
the long list, but they point out half a dozen areas of major
concern in its unfairness, its bias and so on.
The petitioners call on the Government of Canada to undertake a
fair tax reform process so that consumers do not continue to
suffer financial security and unfair costs at this point in time.
GOODS AND SERVICE TAX
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I have
another petition which I wish to present.
The petition is signed by a long list of students at the
University College of the Cariboo who point out that the
government is presently taxing reading materials. They believe
the 7% GST on reading materials to be unfair, unjust, wrong,
stupid, dumb, and the list continues. Actually they do not use
the words stupid and dumb, but that is what they are saying.
The students quote Newfoundlander Brian Tobin, who says “It is
a violation of the concept of freedom of speech to tax the
written word, to tax the ability of people to communicate with
each other”. They simply agree with Mr. Tobin on that point.
They ask that the government come to its senses and back off
from taxing reading materials.
1210
GASOLINE PRICES
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, NDP): The third petition
concerns the increase in gas prices. I notice gas prices in this
part of Canada are on the increase.
The petitioners ask the federal government to step in and
establish a board to oversee the price of fuels, recognizing that
Canada is a northern country and the cost of fuel is factored
into the cost of living for every Canadian citizen.
They also suggest that the government give some consideration to
Canada's crumbling national highways.
CANADA STUDENT LOAN PROGRAM
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, NDP): Finally, Mr. Speaker,
petitioners are concerned about the debt load faced by students.
They point out that students graduating from university on
average have a debt load of $25,000.
Considering that so many young people have a difficult time
finding employment, particularly employment at a decent salary,
to enter their working life with this kind of debt load is wrong.
They ask the government to give more consideration to changing
the Canada student loan program and to coming up with a number of
programs to support students.
As a personal comment, perhaps this is the time to consider
doing away with tuition fees as many other countries have done in
an effort to provide equal access for all students regardless of
their level of income.
HIGHWAYS
Mr. Jerry Pickard (Kent—Essex, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have a petition signed by several residents in my riding asking
that the federal government work along with the provinces to
upgrade the highway system in Canada.
TAXATION
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
I present a petition from approximately 300 Canadians who would
like to see the income tax law changed so benefits can be applied
not only to a surviving spouse but also to any designated
individual, whether a common law partner, a son, a daughter, a
friend or any other designated individual.
The petitioners believe the current law is unfair.
HEALTH CARE
Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have
a petition from citizens in the city and county of Peterborough
concerned about freedom of choice in health care. In this case
there are approximately 150 signatures.
Among other things they ask that the only foods the Government
of Canada may restrict from the market are those that are proven
unsafe or fraudulently promoted and that section 3 and schedule A
of the present Food and Drugs Act be deleted so that true claims
for any product that prevents, treats or cures any of the 46
specific conditions can be allowed.
THE SENATE
Ms. Sophia Leung (Vancouver Kingsway, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I have a petition from British Columbians asking that the Senate
be reduced in size. They feel there are too many senators and
that the Senate is too costly. They would also like to see an
elected Senate.
* * *
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I ask
that all questions be allowed to stand.
The Deputy Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
CANADA MARINE ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion.
Mr. Bob Kilger (Stormont—Dundas, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
believe that you will find consent for the following motion. I
move:
That at the conclusion of today's debate to refer Bill C-9 to
committee before second reading, all questions to dispose of the
said stage of the said bill be deemed put, deemed requested and
deferred until Tuesday, October 21, 1997 at the end of Government
Orders.
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I apologize
but I was not informed by my leadership. Will the whip give me
assurance that consent has been reached?
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to confirm to
the member for Elk Island that the discussions have included
leaders of all the opposition parties. We have come to an
agreement that the vote on today's matter be deferred until
Tuesday on returning after the Thanksgiving break.
1215
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Qu'Appelle, NDP): That consultation
did take place and we do have an agreement.
The Deputy Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to
adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to)
Mr. Stan Keyes (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, picking up where I left off,
the centrepiece of the national marine policy of 1995 is the
Canada marine act.
The bill was originally tabled in the House in June 1996. There
followed discussions with stakeholders and a review by the
Standing Committee on Transport which held hearings across this
country.
SCOT, as it is commonly referred to, proposed a number of
amendments to the bill after hearing a wide range of comments
from interested parties, and further amendments were made at
report stage here in the House of Commons before the bill was
sent on to the Senate. Parliament was dissolved and we did not
get to the completion of the bill.
I would like to discuss briefly how Bill C-9 will help modernize
the three key components of Canada's marine transportation
system, ports, the St. Lawrence seaway and marine pilotage.
First, the federal government will focus on those ports that are
vital to domestic and international trade and on preserving
access to remote regions. The remaining ports are being
transferred to local interests who are in a better position to
manage them efficiently and in response to local needs.
The legislation will create Canada port authorities, CPAs, with
a majority of their boards of directors appointed in consultation
with port users.
Bill C-9 repeals the Canada Port Corporation Act and the Public
Harbours and Port Facilities Act. The Canada Ports Corporation
will be dissolved.
To become a Canada port authority, a port must have financial
self-sufficiency, diversified traffic, strategic significance to
Canada's trade and have a link to a major rail line or highway.
Port authorities will be incorporated by letters patent for the
purpose of operating a particular port. They will have powers to
engage in activities related to shipping, navigation,
transportation of passengers and goods and handling of storage of
goods as well as other activities deemed necessary to support
port operations.
Each board of directors will be composed of between seven to
eleven members. The majority of each board will be appointed by
the federal government only after consultation with the users who
will then put the names on a list of candidates that will be
considered by the Minister of Transport.
The remaining directors will be appointed by the municipality or
the municipalities adjacent to the facility, involve provinces
and the Government of Canada.
Perhaps the most important accountability mechanism in the bill
is the provision that ports will have to go to the private sector
for financing. As a result, all port related development plans
requiring investment will be subject to commercial risk
assessment.
During the last Parliament the biggest change introduced by the
standing committee was to give the new port authorities crown
agent status. Crown agent status gives port authorities a clear
exemption from full property taxation and would enable them to be
covered by the municipal grants act.
Then they will pay grants in lieu of taxes to the municipalities
at the same levels as other federal facilities and installations.
For most of the ports that will become CPAs this represents
mostly a continuation of the status quo.
Any new obligations arising from agent status would come mainly
to the federal government and not the agent. For example, crown
agent status applies only to core activities of the ports and not
to other more peripheral or non-core activities that they may
undertake.
To make sure third parties know when they are dealing with a
crown agent, the legislation obliges the port authorities to make
this clear in their non-agent dealings.
The bill requires ports to borrow in their own name and not in
the name of the crown. This emphasizes to lenders that the crown
does not stand behind these obligations.
Another initiative I will address is the part of the legislation
that will permit us to commercialize the operation of the Great
Lakes St. Lawrence seaway system.
This system is a crucial waterway but it is also a business. The
seaway faces formidable challenges, including high asset renewal
costs.
Bill C-9 enables the minister to enter into agreements with a
not for profit corporation or any other private sector interests
to operate and maintain all or part of the seaway. The federal
government would retain regulatory control over the navigation in
the seaway and the existing seaway authority would be dissolved
at an appropriate date.
The new not for profit seaway corporation would be responsible
for operating the system for asset renewal costs up to a specific
limit. There would be incentives to achieve operating
efficiencies and lower costs.
1220
Transport Canada is negotiating the transfer of the seaway
operation to a group representing the major shippers and carriers
on the seaway. We believe that this so-called users group is best
suited to take over the system because users want to minimize
their seaway tolls and ensure the long term integrity of the
system. The industries represented, in particular the steel
industry and the marine carriers, require the seaway for their
long term survival.
On marine pilotage Bill C-9 allows the Minister of Transport to
improve the way pilotage authorities operate in Canada. The
authorities will have legislative support to ensure that they
recover their costs from those who use their services as well as
a streamlined appeals process for new pilotage rates.
Of course as always, safety and environmental protection will
continue to be the government's top priority and any changes will
help to ensure that our high standards of safety continue to be
maintained.
In conclusion, Bill C-9 meets the goals of the national marine
policy and it strikes a balance in how we manage our marine
institutions and facilities. The bill complements the
government's other transportation initiatives and is an important
element in the overall effort to prepare our transportation
system for the coming century. But no matter what changes are
made or how many services are commercialized, Transport Canada
will continue to make the safety and security of Canada's
transportation system its first priority.
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
am pleased to speak on Bill C-9. I am glad to hear that the
member opposite is positive about making all these changes to the
marine act. I am afraid it is some 50 or 60 years too late.
I am here to talk about history. I want to give members of the
House a history lesson. As we know, this bill will have a huge
impact on the port of Churchill in Manitoba, which has been
grossly neglected by this government and former governments.
It is ironic that in 1930 members of this House had a vision for
the future of this country and built this huge shipping facility
and in 1929 a railroad was built to reach that port.
Unfortunately from 1930 to 1997 not a lot has been done with that
port. It has been neglected, misused or underutilized.
I am glad to hear that the Liberal government has finally
realized that privatization is not a dirty word. I am glad to
hear that the government believes the private sector can perhaps
carry on the business of transportation of commodities, including
airports, much better than the government sector.
In the short time I have I would like to talk about the port of
Manitoba, our direct access to the world. Its main purpose for
construction as outlined in the Ports Canada document is that
about 25% of western Canada's grain growing area is located
closer to Churchill than to any other port. This covers the area
of central and northern Saskatchewan, northeastern Alberta and
northwestern Manitoba. In other words, Churchill is up to 1,600
kilometres closer to European markets than the port of Thunder
Bay. Those are facts.
Even though those are the facts and that was the original intent
for the construction of the port of Churchill the Liberal
government and previous federal governments over the past 50
years have totally neglected this fact and have put the cost of
transporting agriculture commodities on the backs of farmers.
That is the reason we have an east-west focus rather than a
north-south focus.
Like the hon. member for Churchill, I visited Churchill this
summer and had a chance to meet with Mayor Spence and his
council. I was amazed at the facility there. What really amazed
me was the shape it was in and how long it had been there.
I differ from the member for Churchill. I understand from
speaking with the stakeholders at Churchill that the changes in
the marine act will have an immense impact economically on the
community of Churchill.
1225
We also fail to understand that not only is grain exported
through the port of Churchill but also consumer goods. It is a
gateway to the big north of Canada. There is over $300 million
in consumer products transported through the port of Churchill by
barge and there is no doubt this will increase as further
development takes place in northern Canada.
I would like to put on record the myth that the port of
Churchill is really not the place to export grain and agriculture
products to the world, therefore forcing the farmers over the
last 50 years to pay all these ridiculous transportation costs at
the ports on the east coast as well as on the west coast. Today
we are still doing that; 60% of agricultural products shipped go
west and 40% go to the east.
The break even point at the port of Churchill, I believe, is
between 500,000 and 600,000 tonnes. Having spoken to the port
manager yesterday, so far this year 11 ships have come in and two
more are scheduled to arrive. He stated to me that 400,000
tonnes will be shipped through the port of Churchill this year,
about a 30% increase from 1996. The projection is that management
of the port would like to see 3% to 5% of the prairie crop
shipped through the port of Churchill.
The three western provinces produce about 30 million tonnes of
grain; approximately 1.5 million tonnes are shipped through the
port of Churchill, which is very little in terms of the total
export and transportation of grain in this country.
It is good news with the passing of this bill that the port of
Churchill will be out of government hands and into private hands.
I have a concern that there will be a lack of a voice on the
port board by the producers and a lack of a voice in the
transportation company which has taken over the rail line between
The Pas and Churchill.
It is my hope that farmers will be consulted by both the new
owners and stakeholders of the port and the rail line. Otherwise
we will end up with another monopoly as we had in the past when
CN was run by government and the ports were run by government and
the farmers will get the short end of the stick.
Another concern I have is that the Canadian Wheat Board must
increase the amount of grain moved through Churchill. It is long
overdue that farmers get their grain to market without being
hosed by the transportation system in this country.
[Translation]
Mr. Antoine Dubé (Lévis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased as the
member for Lévis to rise in this debate, because everything marine
is of great interest to me. My constituents are also particularly
interested, because the chantier maritime de Lévis is in my riding.
It was Canada's main shipyard before the Liberals arrived. It
still has the potential to be the greatest one.
It also concerns me because, as the member for
Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans pointed out, all the Great Lakes
traffic passes by us. Unfortunately, it often just passes by. We
do not always reap the benefit, because there is not enough
legislation favouring Quebec.
1230
Bill C-9 is not new, as it replaces Bill C-44, which died on the
Order Paper last spring, when the Prime Minister decided to call an
early election. Bill C-44 had gone through all the stages in the House
and had been referred to the Senate, which is not known for acting
expeditiously. So, the old Bill C-44 was not passed by the Senate and is
now being reintroduced as Bill C-9.
At this stage, we cannot be opposed to it, since second reading
deals with the principle of the bill. The Bloc Quebecois is not opposed
to the objectives of the bill, even though we feel they are too modest.
We, of course, strongly support the purpose of the bill, which is to
transfer responsibilities to local communities.
But there are major uncertainties. The bill is flawed in terms of
what it does not cover. For example, the $125 million fund for port
authorities seems woefully inadequate. It would not even cover Quebec's
needs, let alone those of the whole country.
It is insufficient. If that amount remains unchanged, we will
probably oppose the legislation at third reading. But let us give the
government a chance.
Then there is the appointment of the members of port authorities,
which are supposed to be privatized. The government is keeping way too
many powers, given that these authorities should manage their own
affairs. Changes will have to be made in that regard, otherwise we in
the Bloc Quebecois will oppose the bill.
We have other concerns. The hon. member for
Kamouraska.—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques will
discuss these, including the issue of pilots on the St. Lawrence
River, which is a concern, particularly to those of us who are
from the Quebec City region. The bill provides that St. Lawrence
pilots will continue to ensure marine transportation on the St.
Lawrence River.
Since I represent the riding of Lévis, I will of course primarily
discuss the flaws of this bill, pompously called the Canada Marine Act.
There is absolutely nothing in this bill about shipbuilding.
In Lévis, which, as I was reminding you earlier, was, and potentially
still is, the largest shipyard in Canada, the federal government has
done nothing in its first term of office.
But during the 1993 election campaign, these folks made a number of
promises. The first was to hold a Canadian summit on the future of
shipbuilding in Canada. Not a whiff of a summit have we had, nor have
we heard anything about the future of shipyards in Canada.
I am telling you this because the Conservatives did not manage to
finalize anything before the 1993 election, but the Liberals had said
they would do something about the project to replace the Lucy Maud
Montgomery, the ferry running between the Magdalen Islands and Prince
Edward Island.
The Liberal government dragged its heels and took forever to bring
forth what looks like a mouse to me, because instead of allowing the
Lévis shipyard to build a new boat for $60 million, it preferred to pay
$30 million to refit an Irish ferry for service to the Magdalen Islands.
This is no way to promote economic and maritime development in Canada.
In addition, we called for action; at the time, we formed the
official opposition. We pointed out that the Liberal Party in
its red book had promised money for the conversion of defence
industries such as the Lévis shipyard to peacetime purposes.
Yet, nothing, not a single penny, was provided in this area to
help not only our shipyard in Lévis but also shipyards across
Canada. Not one penny.
1235
That was a fine promise, another broken promise. Each time the
question of the shipyard in Lévis was raised, the then transport
minister—and there have been quite a few—and the industry
minister would reply: “The shipyard in Lévis should have a
business plan. They should submit a business plan.” They did.
The management of the shipyard submitted a plan but, in the end,
they never saw a penny. This time, they were given a different
set of reasons: new terms and conditions had to be negotiated
into the collective agreement, and the workers had to make
concessions. And they did. But even then, they never saw a penny.
There was, in the background, another condition the government
did not dare state publicly. The shipyard was the property of the
Société de développement industriel, a Quebec crown corporation.
They said: “As long as the Quebec government is a shareholder,
the federal government will not put money into this
corporation.” Dominion Bridge, a private company, took over the
shipyard a year and a half ago. Still, not a penny was provided
for infrastructure, for military or civilian conversion. Nothing.
And no contracts either.
Then, the shipyard in Lévis underwent a slight change in
orientation. It secured the oil rig contract and has three
contracts lined up and ready to go, including one from a
Brazilian Crown corporation called Petrobras to build the Spirit
of Columbus. But financial securities are required from both
levels of government: the Quebec government, which has done its
part, and the Canadian government, through the Export Development
Corporation. Nothing has moved in a little over a year. All the
while, there is a rig moored in my colleague's riding, at least
in part, as the port of Quebec is right at the limit of the
riding of Québec. It is the second largest rig in the world and
we get to see it every day, but the federal government will not
lift a finger.
I see that the hon. member for Beauce, who is supposed to represent
the interests of the Quebec region, is listening. That is good, because
I hope he will convey the message. Time is running out. This contract
could create 400 jobs. So it is important.
Even workers from his riding are involved because his riding is
next to mine. The same applies to the member for Bellechasse, the
minister of state responsible for agriculture and agri-food and for
fisheries and oceans. He was loudly defending the federal government in
his riding instead of defending his riding on the federal scene. I woke
him up at one point and told him: “Be careful. When there were 2,000
employees at MIL Davie, 500 of them came from the Bellechasse riding.
You should look after their interests.” I urge the member for Beauce to
do the same.
Furthermore, they let two bills die on the Order Paper when they
called an early election. Now we know why: the Liberals were afraid of
allegations and investigations. The Prime Minister said to himself:
“Given the usual sluggishness of the federal government, the
investigations will take so long that there is enough time for an
election”. He called the election and he did the right thing. I
congratulate him. I think he now has a majority of four members.
It could have been different.
The Liberal government is not to be congratulated as far as
maritime issues are concerned. I am not the only one to say so. All
ridings with major shipyards are represented by opposition members, not
by Liberal members; the Liberals were all defeated because of their
inertia. And Canadian shipowners agree with us.
It is high time that the government did something in this area.
[English]
Ms. Wendy Lill (Dartmouth, NDP): Mr. Speaker, as the
member for Dartmouth and the representative of thousands of
people who are employed and affected by the activities of one of
Canada's most vital ports, I would like to discuss the impact on
Atlantic Canada of Bill C-9, the Canada Marine Act.
First I will discuss the issue of divesting certain harbours and
ports on the communities of Nova Scotia. Then I will look at
some of the aspects of Bill C-9 that will have negative impacts
on the port of Halifax.
1240
The federal government announced in its national marine policy
in 1995 that it planned to divest itself of all of its port
facilities across the country which were under the control of
Transport Canada.
Ottawa said it was spending $50 million each year to operate the
country's 572 ports. The marine policy later became Bill C-44
which died in the House when the last Parliament was dissolved.
Transport Canada is continuing with the divestiture scheme using
other mechanisms.
The list of Nova Scotia port facilities reaches over 150. There
are Amherst, Baddeck, Mulgrave, Port Hawkesbury, Canso, Liscomb,
Mahone Bay, Tor Bay, over 150 communities which depend on their
ports as an important pillar of their communities are in
jeopardy.
Like their churches, their schools and their post offices, for
those who still have the luxury of having a post office, the
ports are an important part of their existence. So far Transport
Canada has managed to unload three ports. The Weymouth port was
sold to Irving for about $250,000. The Shelburne port was taken
over by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the Daysprings
port was purchased for $30,000 by a shipyard company.
In the near future the Country Harbour facility will go up for
public auction and the Sheet Harbour and Iona ports will be
available for public tender. How many other buyers are there for
these little ports? I would say precious few.
Transport Canada is holding public hearings in the affected
communities. An executive assistant to Transport Canada's
Atlantic region divestiture team has said that the affected
communities are very hostile during these meetings. I can
imagine why.
So many of these communities are angry because they do not think
they have the resources to maintain or take over these facilities
and they do not. These communities will go to ruin. These ports
will go to ruin without the infrastructure that the government
provides.
How can a port with revenues of $2,000 and expenses of $20,000
be profitable? But is profitability the only criterion by which
we judge things now? Over 100 small ports which are central to
the maritime fabric of life will flounder and go to ruin. For
what? To save a few dollars.
This is the same mentality that wiped out the Yarmouth-Bar
Harbour ferry in the winter time. It is the same mentality that
will force people to pay a toll on the trans Canada highway. This
is the same mentality that led the government to privatize the
air traffic control system for a billion dollars less than it was
worth. This is privatization ideology run rampant.
It is ironic that the Prime Minister is presently meeting with
the four Atlantic premiers to talk about Atlantic Canada's need
to get ahead at the same time as the government is pushing
through legislation which undermines the essential transportation
infrastructure in Atlantic Canada. At the same time it tightens
the grip of big corporations such as Irving on our communities.
The port of Halifax-Dartmouth is another community which has
major concerns about Bill C-44. The bill will prevent access for
the port authority to the traditional primary source of funding
for major capital projects and that is the federal government.
This is the primary negative feature of the bill. Many port
facilities such as Halifax are capital intensive and have to be
built well in advance of user commitments. Users often do not
come until the facilities are in place. In the case of Halifax,
because little of its traffic is captive, when users of the
facility arrive there is no guarantee they will stay.
Ships float and boats are floating assets. They will not stay
if they find another port which provides cheaper access to the
markets in the North American interior that they seek to serve.
No private sector lender or investor can advance the bulk of
such funding against user commitment which may or may not
materialize when the facilities are completed. Funding can only
come from governments which have the necessary financial
resources and can justify, in the interest of promoting the
economy of their constituents, the assumptions of the attendant
commercial risks. This is true of all Canadian ports but also
ports the world over which do not have enough captive or near
captive traffic for their major borrowings to be bankable.
1245
Had the bill been in effect in the late 1960s Halifax would not
have been able to build and equip even one container berth and
the harbour would long ago have fallen into disuse.
The bill should be changed to delete the provisions intended to
prevent the federal government from providing capital funding to
the new port authorities.
Another concern that we have in Atlantic Canada is the concern
of labour with regard to this legislation. Labour needs a place
at the new port authorities. From labour's standpoint the Canada
Marine Act does not legislatively ensure that port labour will
have a place at the new port authority boards. Port labour in
Halifax is asking that it be grandfathered into the new board of
the port authority so as to ensure that labour has a continued
voice in the direction and running of the Halifax port.
The Halifax Port Development Commission also has serious
objections to the bill on the one hand denying any access
whatsoever for ports to parliamentary appropriation of federal
funds, while on the other hand continuing to offer access to the
consolidated revenue fund for the seaway.
As clause 67(c) states, the objective is to protect the long
term operation and viability of the seaway as an integral part of
Canada's national transportation infrastructure. The port of
Halifax and the CN gateway are at least as critical a component
of Canada's national transportation infrastructure as the seaway,
and given industry trends, hold considerably greater potential to
expand their role in international trade for the benefit of all
Canadians.
It should also be noted that in many instances the seaway
competes with Halifax for traffic, making the discrepancy of
treatment that much more objectionable. We therefore strongly
recommend that Bill C-9 be amended to ensure that the major ports
and the seaway are treated in a consistent and equitable manner
with respect to access to federal funds for capital investment.
Bill C-9 in its present form will have many detrimental effects
on the communities of Atlantic Canada ports both big and little.
Atlantic Canada and the port of Halifax deserve to have their
needs met. Bill C-9 is not acceptable in its present form and we
will be examining it carefully and constructively in committee.
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Madam
Speaker, congratulations on your appointment to the Chair.
I am certainly pleased to talk on Bill C-9 today. It will have
a big impact on my community and in many communities of the
province of Nova Scotia and the entire maritime provinces because
it deals with ports and harbours. It also deals with the St.
Lawrence seaway which does not directly affect us but it
certainly does indirectly. There will be a major impact on the
federal ferry system, the pilotage programs and harbour police.
Many aspects of the way of life in coastal communities either on
the west coast or on the east coast will be affected.
The bill talks about the impact it will have on the ports and
harbours and the pilotage people. It does not talk about the
impact it will have on municipalities. It does not talk about
the tremendous impact it will have on the provinces and the
people. It will have an incredible impact on the people who are
affected by the downsizing programs.
The thought crossed my mind as I was reading the bill that it is
very much along the line of the present government policy of
downsizing which seems to be pervasive throughout government
programs. In some cases it seems to be innocuous and maybe even
sensible, but the fact of the matter is that whenever national
standards are taken away and the responsibility is given to the
provinces and then down to the municipalities, we lose
consistency and control over how the ports are managed. There
will be inconsistencies from port to port from province to
province and all over the country when this bill passes. I know
it will cause a lot of grief.
Right now we have national policies which are inconsistent.
Provincial policies change very rapidly. Provincial policies can
change in an instant, whereas national policies only change over
a period of time. They are much slower to change. The people
involved who are affected by these quick decisions by the
provinces will be hurt a great deal more than if the control of
the port stayed with the federal government.
1250
The pervasive downsizing approach by the government was
eloquently repeated yesterday by the premier of the province of
Nova Scotia, a former member of this House, who said, “We have
suffered hundreds of millions of dollars in cuts in recent years.
Just give us a chance to get our bearings. It seems that the
cutbacks are promoting cutbacks. Let us lay off for a little
while until we get on our feet before you come back at us
again”. That is what this is doing. This is coming back at the
smaller communities and the smaller ports. Even though the
premier of the province of Nova Scotia was a former member, he
recognizes that.
A really good example of the negative impact of downloading and
losing the consistency of national policies is the port police
policy that the hon. member for Saint John so eloquently talked
about a little while ago. The port police in Canada are highly
specialized and highly trained police. They are specialized in
the fields of drugs, immigration, firearms and contraband, all
things that are really important to Canadians. If we lose an
effective police force on the ports, the whole country will pay a
huge price for it.
Under Bill C-9 all the ports police are being disbanded and
municipal police or whatever are going to take over this
responsibility. It is not even clear who is going to take this
over. The government is disbanding the ports police and there is
no plan.
Again we run into the inconsistency problem that I mentioned
before where one port is doing one thing, another is doing
something else and other ports have no plan at all. Basically if
we do go to inconsistent port police we will have training that
is inconsistent, quality that is inconsistent and the application
of the rules and the law that is inconsistent.
We feel that the ports that have poor policing systems will be
identified by the criminal elements in our country. They will
become the ports of choice for criminal operations. We think
that is going to happen because we are losing our national
standards for our ports police. We are going to have every port
with its own police application and approach. That is another big
impact from downloading.
I am again going to quote Nova Scotia Premier MacLellan. He
said yesterday, “Nova Scotians have been devastated by what
Ottawa did. We have to get our financial house in order, there
is no question about that, but excessive financial brutality is
something else again. We just cannot do that. It is not the way
to treat people”. That is what is happening.
Let us move on to a few other aspects of C-9. Probably the most
important issue is the classification of ports. The government
is dividing all ports into three classes: major commercial ports
that are financially viable; regional ports that are to be
divested over six years—I almost used devastated and that could
be interchanged with divested because I believe they will be—;
and the other class of ports is remote ports.
These again are separate from the fisheries and oceans small
craft harbours where the same thing is happening. Those wharves
are all being divested or becoming port authorities. It is going
to have a tremendous impact on the communities.
Somebody in the closet in Ottawa who is writing this legislation
does not have any idea of the impact this will have on
communities like Wallace, Pugwash, Barachois and Parrsboro that I
am sure Madam Speaker is very familiar with. Communities like
Advocate and Shelburne in Nova Scotia where a military base just
closed. Now they are having their port taken away from them or
they are disowning the port I should say because the port is not
viable by itself and they are going to lose.
The first classification of ports is major ports. They will
become Canadian port authorities. They will probably be all
right because they have already been designated as viable. The
regional ports have a very uncertain future and this is where we
are going to focus our attention. The third is the remote ports
which will continue to be supported by the federal government.
Our focus will be on the regional ports such as the ports I
listed a minute ago. These ports have not had the opportunity to
be heard. They do not even have any idea what is going to happen
to them. They do not even have any idea that this is happening.
We want to make sure that the regional ports do know what is
happening. We will make sure, to the best of our ability, that
they are informed and given the opportunity to speak and tell us
what the impact will be on their communities.
Often the port, the wharf, is the lifeblood of the community. If
you take away the port and let it collapse, and this legislation
will eventually force many ports to collapse, the whole community
will collapse.
I do not think we can stand by and let that happen.
1255
One option that has been put up for the regional ports is to
privatize the port facility or sell it. Sell it to whom? What
about the community? What about the community that uses it for
recreational boating and fisheries and as a centre of its
commercial activity? What happens if it is sold to a company
that has no interest in the community?
There was a proposal in Bayside, New Brunswick to sell the wharf
and the whole port to a U.S. company. It wanted to take control
over the entire port. It wanted to open a gravel pit or a quarry.
It said that the only way it could do that would be if it totally
controlled the whole port of Bayside. What happened to the
people in Bayside? What about their concerns?
Had it not been for the MP for Charlotte, that deal probably
would have gone ahead and an American sand and gravel company
would now own a port in New Brunswick. It would own the whole
port that tax dollars paid for, a port that is the centre of
activity in the whole area of Bayside.
Again I hearken back to Premier MacLellan's comments about
downloading, devastation, brutality. Let us go slow on this
regional ports facility deal. We will be monitoring the regional
ports facility issue very very closely.
There has not been enough consultation with the regional ports.
They do not even know what is happening to them. We may propose
that we split the bill. We should do the national ports and
remote ports now and the regional ports later as we get other
alternatives that will offer opportunities for these communities.
We just cannot wipe out hundreds of communities. There are
hundreds of communities on the list that have been presented.
Regional and local ports from all parts of the country in every
province will be affected. These communities do not realize that
they are about to lose the hub of their whole community. They
have to know and must have a chance to speak and be heard. We
will be bringing that to their attention.
The privatization aspect of this bill is really frightening. An
American company can buy a port since there are no restrictions
on who can buy and own ports. The bill just states that the
ports are going to be divested, that they will be sold to the
highest bidder. There are now planned auctions for ports in Nova
Scotia. This is an incredible way to treat the people and the
citizens of these ports that will be sold.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Whelan): Debate. The hon. member
for Portage—Lisgar.
Mr. Jake E. Hoeppner (Portage—Lisgar, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, your father must be very proud of you in your elevation
to the Chair. I congratulate you and wish you well.
I will take a different slant on this issue. I will try to
point out why some of these ports are probably not profitable and
why we need more cost effective transportation or handling of
these ports.
My hon. colleague from Souris—Moose Mountain gave me some stats
from the Canadian Grain Commission. They really tell the story
of what has happened to many of the ports. The dates for all of
these ports range from 1987 to 1996.
The Atlantic coast ports decreased from 552,000 tonnes in 1987
to 73,000 tonnes today. That is quite a decrease. The ports
along the St. Lawrence have had an even bigger decrease. In 1987
they handled 11.8 million tonnes of grain. Today they are only
handling about 4.4 million tonnes. We can see that the flow of
traffic as far as grain is concerned has been diverted to some
other transportation systems.
Thunder Bay has done a little better. It has actually increased
from 1.1 million tonnes to 1.4 million tonnes, possibly because
of the grain going to the U.S. being loaded in Thunder Bay and
then unloaded at Duluth. Churchill, which my hon. colleague from
Dauphin—Swan River talked about, used to handle about half a
million tonnes or better of grain in 1987.
In 1996 they were down to 227,000 tonnes. As we heard today that
has increased to about 400,000 tonnes, which is a good trend for
Churchill.
1300
The Pacific coast has actually stayed very stable at from 60
million tonnes in 1987 down to 40 million tonnes in 1996. Because
of market trends in shipping products to Asia, west coast ports
have done better than east coast ports.
Why is that? One of the big reasons is that the costs at some
of these ports have become almost unbearable for the shippers,
especially grain farmers.
In 1990 the St. Lawrence Pilotage Authority negotiated a new
wage contract that gave a 32% increase in wages over three years,
which was unheard of in those days for other industries. Why
these people were able to leverage this kind of a contract I have
no idea.
In a nine month period pilots earn from $115,000 to $156,000. We
were told during the hearings in Thunder Bay that they did not
want to prove or disprove after nine months of operation that
they still qualified for unemployment insurance. Their yearly
earnings were fairly well looked after.
This brought to light other things. I am looking at some of my
notes. Mr. Kennedy, one of the town fathers of Thunder Bay,
pointed out that the cost of a tonne of grain going down the St.
Lawrence Seaway on a 20,000 tonne freighter would be $2.50 per
tonne just for the pilotage. That is more money to be paid by
farmers than all the fuel taxes on a tonne of grain being shipped
across the country. We can see the additional costs.
For a laker coming up stream with another type of freight it
would be about $1.25 a tonne or about half. It is still very
high and adds to the cost of operating the port.
He also pointed out that a 10 day trip from Montreal up through
the Great Lakes to Thunder Bay and back would cost shippers
$53,000 just for the pilot. That is as much as the total wage
bill for the crew of the ship. We can see that something is
wrong in the pilotage authority that should be addressed in the
bill.
In 1995 we were led to believe that this was one of the most
important issues and that it would be dealt with when the marine
bill was brought forward. However it has been deleted and that
really bothers me.
People will have to begin realizing that if grain transportation
costs are not brought down there will not be much grain going
through some of the ports. The sooner we recognize that, the
better off we will be.
When I looked at some of the figures that the grain companies
gave us, it was astounding what property taxes were doing to some
of these ports and terminals.
Cargill has a terminal in Duluth which is a third bigger than
its terminal at Thunder Bay. It was paying $27,000 property
taxes at Duluth and $1.25 million at Thunder Bay. It is about
the same for west coast ports. They are somewhat lower but the
property taxes on some grain facilities are unbelievable. That
will have to be addressed, or we will begin to see things happen
such as what is taking place in rail transportation now.
Going back to figures the hon. member for Souris—Moose Mountain
gave me, direct shipping to the U.S. by rail in 1987 was 60,000
tonnes. In 1996 it was 1.889 million tonnes. We see that these
ports are interfering with the shipment of grain, in which
direction it should go, because of the costs.
1305
The Canadian Wheat Board, one of my favourite friends, tried a
number of projects to ship grain down the Mississippi. It was
quite successful. It would take grain up to Minneapolis, barge
it down the Mississippi and export it.
Those things are happening. The government will have to realize
it better do something to address the costs of ports or they will
totally lose the business. Once the business is gone it is
pretty hard to bring it back, except it can be attracted with
lower costs that are feasible and reasonable.
I was astounded by what the pilotage did to shipping on the
Great Lakes. A Canadian ship owner who testified before the
hearings had five vessels in the seaway system. In 1994 he
estimates he could have saved $475,000 on pilotage costs if they
were in a competitive environment and operated on commercial
rates. That was half a million dollars for four ships. When 10
or 12 million tonnes of grain are taken through the system, we
can be seen how it affects shippers.
Why is the Government of Canada allowing these things to happen?
As the whole transportation system was developing there was so
much government interference in the system that they do not know
how to rectify it. It is so far out of whack compared to the
U.S. system.
While freight costs are a little higher as far as rail is
concerned in the U.S, if I ship a load of grain through the
handling system from my farm in Snowflake, Manitoba, to Seattle,
I can save $16 a tonne just by elevation and handling charges in
the grain handling system. These are items that we have to
address.
I have a little story to finish up the whole debate. In the
1930s during the Bennett buggy days car tops were taken off,
shafts were put on the wheels and cars were pulled by horse. In
those days one of my neighbours who was shipping a carload of
barley to Thunder Bay got a bill for a number of dollars and the
price of the barley did not cover the freight.
The station master sent him a bill. He went to the station
master and said “Sir, I haven't got any money. I can't pay this
freight bill. The barley didn't cover the cost of it, so you are
just out of it”. Things being very tough in those days, the
station master said “Bring me a rooster and we will call it
even-steven”.
About a week later the farmer came back to town and brought two
roosters with him. The station agent said “Sir, I only asked
for one rooster. Why would you bring me two?” He said “Well,
sir, you have forgotten I have another carload of barley to
ship”.
That is about the way we are running our transportation system
today. It is becoming so costly that shippers cannot survive
with it. Sooner or later it will die. If we have to pay it in
roosters, the chicken industry in Ontario will also fold.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les
Basques, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the Bloc Quebecois wishes, of course, the
bill to be sent to committee as soon as possible. Let us remember that
this is the old Bill C-44, to which we made a very constructive
contribution to get meaningful results.
The government had not agreed to make some amendments that we
considered essential, which is why we had voted against the bill at
third reading. These amendments are still not to be found in the new
bill.
Yet it has to be recognized that this is an important bill.
It will create the port authorities and finally allow the regions to
take over control of their port infrastructures, which is what the
people of Quebec, among others, have been calling for over the past 20,
25 or 30 years, while the federal government has long been a distant
observer of the vitality of our regions and of the use of port
facilities in our regions.
1310
This bill will introduce some interesting elements, but only
if the federal government decides to put more than $150 million
into the compensation fund it plans to put into place for when a
regional port is handed over to regional authorities. Let me give
you an example.
There are several port facilities in my riding that are
affected by this situation. Since the community of Cacouna found
out two years ago that a new ports policy was coming, it undertook
some projects. A port development corporation has been created.
It has already twinned with the French port of La Rochelle.
It is getting a commercial development plan drawn up under the
leadership of the director general of a pulp and paper mill in
Rivière-du-Loup, a very dynamic business man.
The community has taken its fate into its own hands. It is
prepared to take over, to assume administration of the facility,
but only under acceptable conditions, and the federal government
must turn over the facility under conditions which will maximize
the port's future business opportunities.
For example, they expect that if the port entrance needs
widening, or if the port needs dredging, that must be done. In
other words, like any property, that it not be sold in a rundown
condition. It must be sold in an acceptable condition and at a
price that will enable the community to take it over.
The commercial ports are not the only ones affected by this
bill. There are also ferry ports. Three are affected this way
in my riding: the Rivière-du-Loup—Saint-Siméon ferry, the
Trois-Pistoles—Les Escoumins ferry and the ferry between
Saint-Juste-du-Lac and Notre-Dame-du-Lac on Témiscouata Lake.
Each case necessitates divestment, and the community has to
take over the facility with the assurance that there will be a
future for ferry services. In Rivière-du-Loup, an impact study by
the Corporation de développement économique confirms that the ferry
brings in $25 million and provides each government with some $2
million in tax dollars.
The talk of giving money to the regions out of kindness and a
concern for equality is over. Governments have to consider ferry
ports in Rivière-du-Loup an investment that stimulates the
economy and provides revenues much higher than the cost of
maintaining the facilities and especially divestment in the
interest of the people of the community.
There is also the Trois-Pistoles ferry, which is a private
operation, and which the Government of Quebec did not consider an
essential service, but which in practice provides an essential
service. It provides transportation to the North Shore alleviating
traffic problems on the Saguenay ferry.
The federal government must be open and permit this port to
operate at full capacity. It must also acknowledge the
recreational and touristic aspects of the port developed in
recent years. It is a haven where tourists, who have made
Trois-Pistoles the cultural capital of the Lower St. Lawrence,
can use the port infrastructure as a gateway to the river and
enjoy all the benefits of the various tourist developments in our
region.
All of these things are dealt with in the bill, which is why we
want it sent to committee as soon as possible, so that the government
can listen to our arguments and agree to a number of amendments,
including one to increase the compensation fund to make it efficient and
operational and ensure that the local authorities will be able, 10 or 15
years from now, to take charge of their own future and to control their
port infrastructure.
There are other reasons why we want to send the bill to
committee as soon as possible. There is the whole issue of the
maritime pilots on the St. Lawrence. The last time the bill was
before the committee, the Liberal majority came up with a
last-minute amendment. We do not know where it came from but it
did smack of influence peddling. This amendment took away from
the pilots the role they were playing in terms of security. The
amendment was designed to replace these people with machines, to
remove some of the security measures they used to have and to
threaten the independence they enjoyed as pilots on the St.
Lawrence.
1315
I had a quick look at this amendment, and I was surprised at the
attitude of the government. I had discussions with pilots, who clearly
demonstrated to me the essential nature of their functions, as good
human judgment is essential to navigation on the St. Lawrence, where
security is paramount.
There is also the question of the language of work for pilots on
the St. Lawrence. Over the years, they have developed a tradition of
working in French, and this tradition should continue.
In committee, we fought real hard and convinced the government to
withdraw this amendment. Today, this aspect of the bill is acceptable to
us, and pilots want to see the bill passed as soon as possible.
To conclude, let me add that we would like to vote in favour of the
bill as a whole at third reading. That is why we would like to get a few
additional amendments from the government.
When Bill C-44 was in committee, we managed to have the port of
Trois-Rivières designated as a Canadian port authority, thanks in
part to the hon. member for Trois-Rivières, who made very
significant representations. Among other things, he provided
information that helped the Prime Minister better understand what
was best for Trois-Rivières, after originally saying that the
status of regional port might not be a bad thing for that city.
In any case, the hon. member for Trois-Rivières was able to
demonstrate that Trois-Rivières deserved to have a port authority, and
he managed to convince the committee. This resulted in an improved piece
of legislation.
There are still a few things that need to be corrected in the
bill. If the government is prepared to do so, the end result will
be even better. I am thinking in particular of a clause that
seems quite obsolete. I am referring to the fact that port
masters in Canada are appointed by the government, in a blatant
display of patronage.
After the 1993 election, we had a port master who had been
similarly appointed by the Conservatives, but who had developed an
expertise. He had been there seven, eight or ten years and had become an
expert in the field. Still, the Liberals got rid of him and appointed
someone else. I have no doubt about the new appointee's competence, but
he had to learn everything from scratch. I believe an amendment would be
in order regarding this issue.
All this to say we are prepared to go to committee. We hope the
review takes place as soon as possible, and we also hope the government
will give favourable consideration to our amendments, so that, in the
end, the bill is a true reform of Canada's marine policy and a tool to
promote our economy.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[English]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
FINANCE
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I believe you will find
unanimous consent for the following motion. I move:
That, pursuant to Standing Order 119.1(1), this House authorizes
the televising of meetings of the Standing Committee on Finance
held pursuant to Standing Order 83(1).
(Motion agreed to)
The Deputy Speaker: Resuming debate.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
CANADA MARINE ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion.
[Translation]
Ms. Hélène Alarie (Louis-Hébert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, as someone
who comes from the Lower St. Lawrence and lives in a riding on
the banks of that river, it seems only natural that I should take
part in the debate today.
1320
Without waxing nostalgic, I would like to tell you, and members of
the House, that, in my youth—this goes back a bit—transportation was
generally by boat. Boats took the place of trucks and trains. Things
have changed over time, but I still remember those days when any child
living along the river knew that its moods changed, just as moods change
here in the House.
We in the Bloc Quebecois support the policy to divest and
commercialize ports. However, as those who spoke before me have said,
certain questions arise.
In Bill C-9, the Canada Marine Act, one of the first questions that
comes up concerns the fate of ports. We know that, historically, ports
were not necessarily located where they might be today. We know that
the facilities in certain ports are completely obsolete, and that others
have been transformed over the years from ordinary harbours to deep sea
ports. But on the whole these ports continue to serve the public and
certain businesses.
Even though a reserve of $125 million has been set aside to help
with the restructuring or sale of certain ports, serious questions come
to mind. Will the free trade rules mean that people will buy only ports
that are ready for use and financially viable? Will other ports, which
often contribute to their region's economic development, be completely
divested?
I am really concerned and I wish other members would share my
concerns about who will buy these ports. Will local disparities be
taken into account? Will these ports, as in our case, still be
owned by Quebeckers? Since it was mentioned that Americans or
people from outside Quebec will be able to buy ports, we do not
know how the ports will be managed and what impact this will have
on local and regional markets.
Consequently, we would like to have more information on this
whole aspect of the port transfer before giving our consent to the
bill.
My colleague from Lévis also spoke about shipbuilding. He is
concerned about the issue of shipbuilding in the greater Quebec
City area. In other areas in Quebec, we are also very concerned
about this issue. He mentioned the rig. I will not come back to
that, but it is nevertheless a monument which could become a
monument to shame if the people opposite do not make funds
available to allow the required work to be performed as soon as
possible. This would bring—I will not say grist to the mill,
that would be too easy—more rig overhaul contracts our way.
Shipyards are also involved in ship refit. There were years when
over 2,000 people, or 2,000 families, lived off the contracts awarded by
the federal government to repair or overhaul ships. The mood of the
people in our region depends largely on the employment situation. Now
that only 500 to 700 people work in our shipyards, this is becoming a
problem. And what about construction starts?
But this is a thing of the past, and I do not want to sound overly
nostalgic. There is nothing in bill C-9 on this.
There is another major point, which I will call the interference
issue. Bill C-9, the Canada Marine Act, is a fine model of
interference. We are familiar with this in my riding, where,
following the 1993 election, the defeated Liberal candidate,
Margo Brousseau, was appointed to the port of Quebec's board of
directors. We would not want these things to go on. We would
like people to be appointed to these positions because of their
abilities, not because of their contacts.
1325
Under Bill C-9, the government will appoint directors who will have
decision making powers within port authorities, but it is withdrawing
from any financial involvement. What a nice model of centralization that
does not reflect the realities of the industry.
In concluding my remarks, I want to say a few words on the Pilotage
Act. My colleague from Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les
Basques already spoke on this issue, but I would like to add a few
words. We know the habits of our pilots on the St. Lawrence and we would
like things to stay the same.
Therefore, we are totally opposed to the possible repeal of the
Pilotage Act in favour of the creation of a central body such as the
port secretariat, for which the government is already trying to find a
role. The Bloc Quebecois will keep a close eye on this issue because it
is of great interest to us, and we will not let it go.
In conclusion, we will not vote in favour of this bill unless
certain amendments are made to our satisfaction.
The Deputy Speaker: Pursuant to order made earlier this day, the
question on the motion is deemed to have been put and a recorded
division deemed demanded and accordingly deferred until Tuesday, October
21, 1997, at the ordinary hour of daily adjournment.
(Division deemed demanded and deferred)
[English]
The Deputy Speaker: Is it agreed that we call it 2.30?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Deputy Speaker: It being 2.30 p.m., the House stands
adjourned until Monday, October 20 at 11 a.m., pursuant to
Standing Orders 28(2) and 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 1.27 p.m.)