36th Parliament, 1st Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 70
CONTENTS
Tuesday, March 10, 1998
1005
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | POINTS OF ORDER
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Business of the House
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Don Boudria |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Scrutiny of Regulations
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Derek Lee |
1010
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PETITIONS
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Public Safety
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Szabo |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Prayers
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Eugène Bellemare |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | National Defence
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Claudette Bradshaw |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HOUSE OF COMMONS
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Preston Manning |
1015
1020
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Don Boudria |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion
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1025
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HOUSE OF COMMONS
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
1030
1035
1040
1045
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvan Loubier |
1050
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Art Hanger |
1055
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT ORDERS
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE BUDGET
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Financial Statement of Minister of Finance
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvon Godin |
1100
1105
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Szabo |
1110
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Ethel Blondin-Andrew |
1115
1120
1125
1130
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nelson Riis |
1135
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Myron Thompson |
1140
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. René Laurin |
1145
1150
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Szabo |
1155
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yves Rocheleau |
1200
1205
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Szabo |
1210
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain |
1215
1220
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Monte Solberg |
1225
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Rey D. Pagtakhan |
1230
1235
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Rick Casson |
1240
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gerry Ritz |
1245
1250
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Karen Redman |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Szabo |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Reed Elley |
1255
1300
1305
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Szabo |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Monte Solberg |
1310
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Lynn Myers |
1315
1320
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Monte Solberg |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Szabo |
1325
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jack Ramsay |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Charles Hubbard |
1330
1335
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Monte Solberg |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Dick Proctor |
1340
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Art Hanger |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Szabo |
1345
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nelson Riis |
1350
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Monte Solberg |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Tony Valeri |
1355
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Charlie Penson |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | SOULPEPPER THEATRE COMPANY
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Sarmite Bulte |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CRIMINAL CODE
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chuck Cadman |
1400
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | WINTER OLYMPICS
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Aileen Carroll |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADA-IRELAND INTERPARLIAMENTARY FRIENDSHIP GROUP
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Pat O'Brien |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PARALYMPICS
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Reg Alcock |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADIAN ARMED FORCES
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Art Hanger |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | SALIMA GHEZALI
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Maud Debien |
1405
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GUN CONTROL
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Maloney |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ASSOCIATION FÉMININE D'ÉDUCATION ET D'ACTION SOCIALE DU
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | INFRASTRUCTURE
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Claudette Bradshaw |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE SENATE
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![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Rick Casson |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MEMBER FOR EDMONTON NORTH
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gerry Byrne |
1410
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE SENATE
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nelson Riis |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | QUEBEC FLAG
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Denis Coderre |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | INVESTMENTS IN CANADA
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Marlene Jennings |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
1415
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CUBA
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Preston Manning |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Preston Manning |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chuck Strahl |
1420
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Crête |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Crête |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEALTH
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
1425
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jean J. Charest |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jean J. Charest |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
1430
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | KOSOVO
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Daniel Turp |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ted McWhinney |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Daniel Turp |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ted McWhinney |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEALTH
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Pauline Picard |
1435
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Pauline Picard |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | DECRIMINALIZATION OF MARIJUANA
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bernard Bigras |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bernard Bigras |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Anne McLellan |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Susan Whelan |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Ronald J. Duhamel |
1440
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | DISABILITIES
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Rick Laliberte |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Rick Laliberte |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HIGHWAYS
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Casey |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. David M. Collenette |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Casey |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. David M. Collenette |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | FISHERIES
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gurbax Singh Malhi |
1445
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Wayne Easter |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | IMMIGRATION
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Nunziata |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lucienne Robillard |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Nunziata |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lucienne Robillard |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | SHIPPING
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Michel Guimond |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. David M. Collenette |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Michel Guimond |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. David M. Collenette |
1450
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvon Godin |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvon Godin |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADIAN ARMED FORCES
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. David Price |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. David Price |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | STATUS OF WOMEN
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Joe Jordan |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Diane Marleau |
1455
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | SENIORS' BENEFIT
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Paul Martin |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEALTH CARE
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nelson Riis |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Greg Thompson |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Szabo |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Ethel Blondin-Andrew |
1500
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PRESENCE IN GALLERY
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | The Speaker |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | POINTS OF ORDER
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Oral Question Period
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Paul Martin |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Don Boudria |
1505
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chuck Strahl |
1510
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Michel Gauthier |
1515
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Solomon |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
1520
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
1525
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | The Speaker |
1530
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE BUDGET
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Financial Statement of Minister of Finance
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Budget motion
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Eugène Bellemare |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. John Manley |
1535
1540
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvan Loubier |
1545
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Rick Borotsik |
1550
1555
1600
1605
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Harvard |
1610
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Garry Breitkreuz |
1615
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE BUDGET
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Financial Statement of Minister of Finance
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Duncan |
1620
1625
1630
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Mitchell |
1635
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Reynolds |
1640
1645
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Scott Brison |
1650
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Wayne Easter |
1655
1700
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien |
1705
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Maurizio Bevilacqua |
1710
1715
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Libby Davies |
1720
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Gilmour |
1725
1730
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
1735
1740
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Roy Cullen |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Mitchell |
1745
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Roy Cullen |
1750
1755
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Garry Breitkreuz |
1800
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jean Dubé |
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Eleni Bakopanos |
1805
1810
1845
(Division 97)
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion agreed to
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HOUSE OF COMMONS
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bob Kilger |
1855
(Division 98)
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Amendment agreed to.
|
1905
(Division 99)
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion agreed to
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE ECONOMY
|
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Sarmite Bulte |
1910
1915
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Myron Thompson |
1920
1925
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
1930
1935
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
1940
1945
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. André Harvey |
1950
1955
2000
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Susan Whelan |
2005
2010
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Abbott |
2015
2020
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John McKay |
2025
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Steve Mahoney |
2030
2035
2040
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Crête |
2045
2050
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Louise Hardy |
2055
2100
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Bryden |
2105
2110
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Herron |
2115
2120
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Carolyn Bennett |
2125
2130
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Forseth |
2135
2140
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Stan Dromisky |
2145
2150
![V](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Réal Ménard |
2155
2200
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 70
![](/web/20061116174940im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/crest2.gif)
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Tuesday, March 10, 1998
The House met at 10 a.m.
Prayers
1005
[English]
* * *
POINTS OF ORDER
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I believe you would find unanimous
consent for the following that I would now put to the House.
I know we are immediately dealing with the motion of the member
for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough and I understand that after the
Hon. Leader of the Opposition has spoken and one representative
from the Bloc Quebecois that the following order would take
place.
I move:
1. That the business taken up this day under government orders
be consideration of the budget;
2. That immediately after the aforementioned business, all
questions necessary for the disposal of the motion of the member
for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough for a reference to the Standing
Committee on Procedure and House Affairs shall be put without
further debate or amendment;
3. Immediately thereafter there shall be no proceedings pursuant
to standing order 38, but a motion to adjourn shall be deemed to
have been proposed and shall be debated no more than three hours,
during which time members may speak on economic affairs for no
more than ten minutes each, provided that no quorum calls,
dilatory motions or requests for consent to propose any other
motion may be received, provided that at the end of three hours
or when no member rises to speak, whichever is earlier, the
motion shall be deemed to have been adopted.
The changes from two hours to three hours is a small amendment
to the draft I circulated to colleagues.
Just to further elaborate, this would mean that the vote on the
motion proposed by the hon. member for
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, would be taken at 6.30 p.m. this
evening, prior to the adjournment debate, that I mentioned would
actually take place.
I believe you would find consent for that, Mr. Speaker.
The Speaker: Does the hon. minister have permission to put
the motion?
Some hon. members: No.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[Translation]
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant
to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in both
official languages, the government's response to five petitions.
* * *
[English]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
SCRUTINY OF REGULATIONS
Mr. Derek Lee (Scarborough—Rouge River, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have the honour to present, in both official
languages, the second report of the Standing Joint Committee on
Scrutiny of Regulations concerning sections 56 and 57 of the
Royal Canadian Mounted Police regulations, 1988.
It is the view of the joint committee that these regulations do
not conform to our scrutiny criteria, Nos. 2, 9 and 12. Our
concerns relate to the constitutionality of these regulatory
provisions.
* * *
1010
PETITIONS
PUBLIC SAFETY
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have the honour to present a petition signed by a number of
Canadians, including in my own riding of Mississauga South.
The petitioners would like to draw to the attention of the House
that police officers and firefighters are required to place their
lives at risk on a daily basis and that when one of them loses
their life in the line of duty, employment benefits do not often
provide sufficient compensation to their families and also that
the public mourn that loss of police officers and firefighters
killed in the line of duty and wish to support in a tangible way
the surviving families in their time of need.
The petitioners, therefore, call upon Parliament to establish a
public safety officers compensation fund for the benefit of
families of public safety officers who are killed in the line of
duty.
PRAYERS
Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Carleton—Gloucester, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have the honour to present to this house a petition
circulated by Iftikha Chan and members of the Islamic society of
Cumberland.
This petition calls for the President of the Treasury Board to
direct all federal departments and agencies to set aside space in
the workplace for obligatory prayers for Muslims.
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mrs. Claudette Bradshaw (Moncton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise in the House today to present a petition on behalf of Rudi
Saueracker, a constituent who resides in Dieppe, New Brunswick.
This petition urges the federal government to officially
recognize the efforts of Canada's approximately 4,000 military
members who served in the war and the gulf war instead of special
duty area, Persian Gulf.
* * *
[Translation]
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Question
No. 60 will be answered today.
.[Text]
Mr. Greg Thompson:
Has the sale of Dunhill cigarettes been prohibited under section
27 of the Tobacco Act and if not, why?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.):
Section 27 of the Tobacco Act prohibits the furnishing or
promotion of a tobacco product if any of its brand elements is
displayed on a non-tobacco product that is youth or lifestyle
oriented.
Rothmans, Benson & Hedges Inc. has been advised by Health Canada
that the link between Alfred Dunhill non-tobacco products and
Dunhill cigarettes is under review. The department has also
informed the company that it may continue to distribute Dunhill
tobacco products during this review. This approach follows the
tobacco compliance policy which is consistent with compliance
policies for other acts that are the responsibility of the
Minister of Health.
[Translation]
Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Speaker, I would ask that the remaining
questions be allowed to stand.
The Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
* * *
[English]
HOUSE OF COMMONS
STANDING COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
The House resumed from March 9 consideration of the motion.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I rise to speak against the motion before the House,
against the very idea that an MP should be censured in any way
for proposing that the Speaker resign, and against the spirit of
partisan pettiness that would even inspire such a motion as the
one before us.
While I am at it, I also rise to speak against any ruling that
would curtail the use of the Canadian flag or the singing of O
Canada in this House and against the spirit of timidity and
fearfulness that would even contemplate such a ruling.
To put it more positively, I rise to speak in favour of freedom
of expression as guaranteed by section 2(b) of the Canadian
charter which includes freedom to fly the Canadian flag, freedom
to sing the Canadian national anthem and freedom of speech for
members of Parliament inside and outside this House.
Let me briefly recount the series of incidents that brought us
to the point of this ridiculous motion. A member of the Bloc
Quebecois, a party dedicated to the break-up of Canada, travelled
to the Olympic Games in Japan at Canadian taxpayers' expense.
While there she publicly complained that there were too many
Canadian flags on display.
Presumably, had these games been held in a separated Quebec,
there would have been flag police to prevent such an exaggerated
expression of patriotism, but fortunately these games wherein
flag police exist are neither in Japan nor Canada. In any event,
the member returned to this House of Commons and, exercising her
right to freedom of expression as guaranteed by the Constitution
of Canada, which the Bloc does not recognize, she rose to ask a
question.
If the hon. member had been rising in the French National
Assembly after insulting the French flag on foreign soil, she
would have been booed and hissed out of the chamber. But this is
Canada, the land of extreme moderation, the land of extreme
tolerance, the land where we are all irrevocably, irredeemably
nice.
So the member is greeted not with boos and hisses but by a
positive greeting from MPs waving Canadian flags and singing the
national anthem, on key and in both official languages, so as not
to be accused of being either musically or politically incorrect.
1015
The member and her Bloc colleagues should have taken it all in
stride, perhaps laughing it off and moving on. But no. Besides
being devoid of any sense of Canadian patriotism or Canadian
nationalism, the separatists, like the socialists, are also
devoid of a sense of humour. Instead of tolerating, even
celebrating, such an expression of freedom of expression, the
Bloc House leader demanded that the Speaker of the House rule
against the displaying of Canadian flags on the desks of Canadian
members of Parliament.
Naturally the vast majority of members of the House were enraged
at even the prospect of such a ruling. They find the very idea
that a House, which imposes no limits on the Bloc's freedom to
advocate the destruction of the country, would impose a limit on
the freedom of Canadian federalists to express their commitment
to Canada by flying the flag and singing the anthem.
The hon. member for Elk Island, as all members know, is one of
the most affable and friendly members of the House. There is not
a mean bone in his body. He is a nice man, in the best sense of
the word nice. The member for Elk Island is also a Canadian
patriot. He expressed the view, as members are free to do, that
any Speaker who ruled to curtail the singing of O Canada or the
displaying of the flag in the Canadian House of Commons could
very well find himself unsupported by a majority of the members
of the House, of whom he is the servant.
The Bloc House leader, whose very party represents a threat to
the integrity of Canada, professes to see in these remarks a
threat to the integrity of the House. Who would believe that
someone who cares nothing about threatening the integrity of a
country really cares at all about threats, real or imagined, to
the House?
Then, to top it off, the House leader of the fifth party, the
ragtag remnant of the once great Progressive Conservative Party,
the same party that voted with the Bloc against application of
the rule of law to the issue of secession, moved not a motion in
support of freedom of expression in the House, not a motion in
support of singing the national anthem, not a motion in support
of the flag, but a motion that would send the words of other more
patriotic and forthright members to a committee for censure or
discipline.
We have asked before, and we ask it again because it is
relevant, why it is that some members of the House are
embarrassed and offended for the wrong reasons. Why are some
members embarrassed or offended about things over which there
should be no embarrassment and not embarrassed or offended by
things which should cause them to blush? In other words, why
does the House blush when it ought not to blush and fail to blush
when it should?
In the last parliament the government was embarrassed about the
pressure put on the Speaker with respect to his ruling on the
official opposition status of the Bloc, yet it was not
embarrassed about having a separatist party as the official
opposition.
Government members were embarrassed when Reform Party members
wore buttons in the House regarding MP pensions but were not
embarrassed about the exorbitant pension they gave themselves.
They were offended when the Reform Party questioned the
appointment of His Excellency the Governor General but were not
offended by the patronage appointments made by their government
every day.
They are embarrassed when the Reform Party questions the
legitimacy of the Senate, but they are not embarrassed when they
continue to appoint unelected, unaccountable senators who are
capable of voting down any decision of the House.
The Speaker does not feel that we should be offended when the
government continues to mock parliament by implementing
legislation before that legislation is passed by the House. Yet
he is embarrassed to recognize members with a Canadian flag on
their desks because it might offend the separatists in the House.
We are not expected to be concerned over the erosion of our
influence in the supply process. We are not supposed to be
offended when the House becomes a rubber stamp to an unelected
Senate. Backbench members should just get over the degradation
of the treatment given their private members' bills. Yet the
Speaker is deeply troubled when the House engages in a brief and
orderly demonstration in defence of the Canadian flag.
Here we are again today considering whether we should be
embarrassed about certain members of the House voicing a strong
opinion in support of displaying the Canadian flag in the
Canadian Parliament. Yet in the last parliament the majority of
Liberal members was not embarrassed by a letter written by a Bloc
member to encourage military personnel to join an independent
Quebec military.
1020
I ask why it is that the House blushes when it ought not to
blush and fails to blush when it should. What are we to think of
all this? More important, what are Canadians to think of all
this?
I will tell the House what Canadians think. They think it is
high time we stopped being so confoundedly nice, that we not take
our instructions on when and where to display the Canadian flag
or sing the national anthem from separatists dedicated to
breaking up the country.
Canadians think it is time the Speaker and the traditional
parties stop falling over backward to accommodate separatists who
want to break up our country and show some patriotic backbone.
They think it is time, in the words of the national anthem which
we sing so glibly after an enormous amount of pressure from this
party to even get it sung in the House, “to stand on guard”: to
stand on guard for freedom of expression, not to bend over
backward for its violation; to stand on guard for the freedom to
fly the flag; to stand on guard for the freedom to sing the
national anthem; to stand on guard for these freedoms everywhere
in the country including Quebec; and especially to stand on guard
for those freedoms in the Canadian House of Commons.
I therefore advise that this motion be defeated; that the
Speaker's ruling affirm, not restrict the freedoms of expression
that I have mentioned; and that we then get on with the business
of making the country so strong, so united, so prosperous and so
great that no one in his or her right mind, including the hon.
member, would want to leave.
* * *
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I
believe that you would find consent for the motion that I
proposed earlier this morning. I am willing to read it again, if
it is the pleasure of Mr. Speaker:
1. That, after hearing from the hon. member for Berthier Montcalm,
the business taken up this day under Government Orders be
consideration of the budget;
2. That immediately after completion of the aforementioned
business at 6.30 p.m., all questions necessary for the disposal
of the motion of the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough
for a reference to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House
Affairs shall be put without further debate or amendment;
3. Immediately thereafter there shall be no proceedings pursuant
to Standing Order 38, but a motion to adjourn shall be deemed to
have been proposed and shall be debated for no more than three
hours, during which time members may speak on economic affairs
for no more than ten minutes each, provided that no quorum calls,
dilatory motions or requests for consent to propose any other
motion may be received, provided that, at the end of three hours
or when no member rises to speak, whichever is earlier, the
motion shall be deemed to have been adopted.
The Speaker: Does the hon. minister have permission to
put the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Speaker: The House has heard the terms of the motion.
Does the House agree with the terms of the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to)
* * *
1025
HOUSE OF COMMONS
STANDING COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
The House resumed consideration of the motion.
Hon. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Mr. Speaker, I am proud to
stand here today as a northerner, as a Canadian and as a member
of the government to speak to what I consider to be a truly
balanced budget. After a week—
The Speaker: We are on the question of privilege by the
hon. member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough. Is that what
you are on?
Hon. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Mr. Speaker, I have notes on
both. As a member of the House I do not
believe I have risen on a question of privilege in almost 10
years.
I find it quite disturbing when I think that Canadians are
watching us as members of Parliament. We all have a certain
responsibility to uphold the decorum that my colleagues spoke
about. When they came to the House of Commons they said they
would change decorum in the House because we who preceded them
were apparently quite objectionable in our behaviour.
However, what I see being demonstrated here is something that is
adding fuel to the fire. It is adding to a sense of intolerance.
I am quite disturbed by the fact that a sensitive area is drawing
me into this discussion. Members opposite seem to have the—
The Speaker: The understanding I had of the deal that was
made was that we were going to hear from the Leader of the
Opposition and one other speaker. Now I am faced with a dilemma.
If the deal has been made then we will go with the deal.
I do not know all the understandings in the House. Would you
please sort this out among yourselves for a couple of minutes.
Mr. Chuck Strahl: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I think it has gone beyond sorting it out among
ourselves. The House has passed a motion that the Leader of the
Opposition and a member from the Bloc would be speaking next. We
would then revert to Government Orders which is the budget
debate.
I believe it is not really the opinion of me or you or anybody
else in the House. A motion has been passed and we should now be
listening to the Bloc member speak to the motion.
Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Speaker, I agree with what the whip
of the Reform Party said. I regret any error that has been made
on this side. As was agreed, we will listen to the Bloc and then
revert to the budget debate.
The Speaker: That is the understanding. We have heard
from the Leader of the Opposition and now we will hear from the
member for Berthier—Montcalm.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it
is a pleasure to speak following the leader of the Reform Party.
After hearing what I have to say, I think Reformers will regret
having fought to allow me to speak because there were things
mentioned in the Reform leader's speech that need to be
clarified. Having done that, I will very specifically address the
motion.
The whole argument put forward by the leader of the Reform Party
on how parliamentarians should behave in this place rests on his
statement that the House ought not to blush over the incident
that took place on February 26, when the Canadian flag was waved
about and the national anthem was sung in this House. There are
rules I will remind him of in a moment.
Perhaps I should start by saying that, if there is one man in
this House who ought to blush at his own behaviour, it is
certainly the leader of the Reform Party, with the political
flip-flops he has being doing since becoming the Leader of the
Opposition.
We remember the limousine incident in 1993. In front of the
media, he gave the keys back. But what did he do the very next
day? He got his party to buy him the limousine, with money raised
by his party, which is funded to the tune of 75% by the federal
government. He also had his suits paid for by his party.
1030
Recently, he described Stornoway as a bingo hall, and now he is
living there and renovating it to the tune of thousands of
dollars. If there is anyone in the House who should be
embarrassed today, it is the leader of the Reform Party.
On this topic, I have one last point. He mentioned pensions, and
said that Bloc Quebecois members had revolted in the House
because Reform members wore buttons protesting fat government
pensions. I look forward to hearing what Reform members have to
say in the upcoming re-examination of the pension system, and to
seeing how many of them change their minds and want to opt back
into the federal MPs' pension system.
I look forward to seeing if these political flip-flops will
embarrass Reform Party members.
But the matter raised by a member of the Progressive Conservative
Party regarding the events that occurred in the House on February
26, 1998 is much more serious. I think that the House can
tolerate politics of all sorts. I think that we can have
opposing views on the future of the country, budgets, ways of
approaching things, or whatever, but I think that all
parliamentarians have one thing in common and that is our
democratic system.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: And I urge the Reform members to listen.
Perhaps—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Mr. Speaker, if
the members paid attention, they might commit fewer blunders in
this House. I would like them to pay attention because, if
there is one thing that all parliamentarians have in common—be
they Reform, Conservative, Bloc Quebecois or NDP members—it is the
democratic system.
We saw this in Quebec, when this vital element, democracy, was
raised in connection with the reference to the Supreme Court.
There was a huge consensus in Quebec on that democratic right.
They criticize, they protest, but nevertheless there is a link
between what is going on in the Supreme Court with respect to
democracy and what happened here on February 26, 1998.
What were the hon. members trying to accomplish with their
actions that day? They were trying to intimidate an MP who had
been democratically elected by the people in her riding. Some
Reform MPs even mocked us, saying we looked like deer caught in
the headlights. They figured they had pulled a good stunt.
But what they had done was something extremely significant, an
antidemocratic act. They wanted to intimidate and frighten an
MP, make her sit down, prevent her from asking the minister a
question, and prevent the minister from answering her question.
What is more, when you stood up, Mr. Speaker, they started to
sing the Canadian national anthem in order to prevent you from
speaking. Two separate acts of collusion between Liberal and
Reform members to prevent the Canadian democratic system from
operating properly. That is extremely important.
Today, we see them acting outraged by what is going on in this
House, yet they are the ones responsible for it. It is not the
Bloc's fault if we have lost two days in discussion. It is the
fault of Liberal and Reform members, as the Jacob affair was as
well.
We must talk about the Jacob case. I expended a great deal of
energy and time, both in committee and in this House,
participating in debates and examining the legislation and
precedents applicable to the situation, because once again an
important principle was involved. Reform and Liberal members
wanted to put the brakes on a Bloc Quebecois member, to stop him
from doing his work, from acting democratically and fulfilling
the democratic mandate he had been given. There is a common
denominator in all of this. It is always the same. The hon.
members today—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: It is hard to hear the truth so early in
the morning. Yet—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Yes, there you are. They are speaking of
sedition, of high treason.
1035
Yet, what did the hon. member for Charlesbourg, Mr. Jacob—we
can name him since he is no longer a member of this House—say?
He simply said that, following a victory by the yes side, and
after holding negotiations, members of the Canadian forces who
are from Quebec would be allowed to join the Quebec army should
they wish to do so. Because a sovereign Quebec would have an
army. It might not be like the Canadian army with big tanks,
state-of-the-art helicopters and nuclear submarines like those it
wants to buy, but Quebec would have its own army. Reform members
felt this was high treason, sedition.
Mr. Yvan Loubier: Mr. Jacob was exonerated in that case.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: After weeks of proceedings, of hearings,
of listening to experts. It cost hundreds of thousands of dollars
to find out that Mr. Jacob had the right to say what he said.
He was totally exonerated from the false accusations made by
Reformers.
Today, these same Reformers are outraged by what is going on in
this House. What are they saying? What did they say? What did
some Liberal members tell the media? They directly challenged the
decision-making authority of the Speaker of the House of Commons.
This is unacceptable.
Reformers would greatly benefit from reading Beauchesne's sixth
edition. Let me read article 167, on pages 48:
The Speaker as Presiding Officer of the House of Commons
167. The essential ingredient of the speakership is found in the
status of the Speaker as a servant of the House.
The Presiding Officer, while but a servant of the House, is
entitled on all occasions to be treated with the greatest
attention and respect by the individual Members because the
office embodies the power, dignity, and honour of the House
itself.
Some members made statements to the media; no one denies this.
Yesterday, I was here during the debate and those who had been
accused of making such comments to the media rose one after the
other to repeat and expand on what they had said. They went even
further. Look at their desks. Reformers still have Canadian flags
on their desks. I understand Liberal members were given the word
last night.
Mr. Darrel Stinson: Yes, you bet.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Reformers never cease to amaze me, Mr.
Speaker.
The Liberals understood overnight. They slept on it. They put
away the Canadian flags. However, the Reform Party, just to
provoke the House a bit more and contrary to your ruling,
because you did make a ruling—. Until you rule on the merits, we
agreed that no members would have a Canadian flag on their desks
or, at least, that you would not recognize them. However,
yesterday, some members with Canadian flags on their desks rose
in their places and spoke without a problem.
As you can see, Mr. Speaker, in addition to failing to recognize
what you represent, they are continuing their provocation today.
More importantly, Mr. Speaker, paragraph 168 on page 49 of the
sixth edition of Beauchesne's provides, and I invite the
Reformers to listen attentively:
168. —No member may rise when the Speaker is standing.
Reflections upon the character or actions of the Speaker may be
punished as breaches of privilege.
The actions of the Speaker cannot be criticized incidentally in
debate or upon any form of proceeding except by way of a
substantive motion.
There are rules in this House. We do not always agree with
rulings, but we do honour the rules of this House. We have
always obeyed them, and I do not think anyone in this House can
accuse the members of the Bloc Quebecois of not doing responsible
work, of not obeying the rules in place.
It is like in the courts. It is like two lawyers arguing a case.
Good arguments are used. We present arguments to express our
point of view.
I think the Liberals do so too. As do the Conservatives.
1040
But there is one party that has not done so since 1993, for all
kinds of reasons: the Reform Party. Today, they are scandalized
because we want to apply the rules governing how this House
operates. I think there is something abnormal in all of this.
We introduced an amendment to the main motion, stating that the
matter must be dealt with as promptly as possible. When I began
to speak this morning, I said that this was an extremely
important question. I think it is the most important matter you
will have to decide on since becoming the Chair of the 36th
Parliament. It is a matter directly related to your powers.
Your ruling will set a precedent for the future.
Precedents are often cited in this House in support of a
position. I would not like to have to cite you in the future as
ruling in support of the right to do just about anything here.
I do not believe that is the objective. I do not think I need
argue any further about proper procedure in this House. I think
that the rulings you have brought down have been fair and have
always advanced the cause of parliamentarism. Naturally, your
vision of Canada and mine cannot be the same, but you have
nevertheless brought down rulings based on the Standing Orders of
this House, and they have never been disputed. We have taken
note of your decisions and I hope that this House will do the
same.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: There they go again, the people who want
to be Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II's opposition. They wanted
to be the official opposition and they have been patting
themselves on the back since June 1997, but they are not even
capable of respecting the most basic rule of order in the House,
which is to listen when a member is speaking.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Luckily we have a Speaker who ensures
that order is observed in the House and that each member's right
to speak is respected. I was very upset and hurt on February 26,
1998 when all members waved Canada's flag around like
five-year-olds during a royal visit and sang the national anthem in
the House. I think the Canadian flag was used for propaganda
purposes. I think the flag and the national anthem were used to
provoke and I find that unacceptable in our democratic system.
Whether members are federalists, or sovereigntists like the Bloc
Quebecois, I think they must show respect for the flag and the
national anthem as we have. We are not saying we like this
national anthem, but we respect it, as we respect the American
national anthem. We respect the Canadian flag, as we respect
flags of other countries. I think that is what tolerance is all
about. I think that the Reform Party and certain Liberal members
do not have the word in their daily vocabulary. I hope that your
ruling on this matter will provide a bit of enlightenment for
parliamentarians because, as you know, the 36th Parliament is
still very young.
In the coming weeks and months, some extremely important meetings
will take place in Quebec. I hope that Reform and Liberal members
will adopt a slightly different attitude to Quebec, put aside
their arrogance and vengefulness, and eventually be able to sit
down with Quebec and work out problems that it would be timely
and very useful to resolve as quickly as possible for the good
of Canada and particularly for the good of Quebec.
1045
Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): Mr. Speaker, first I
want to congratulate the hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm for
making such an eloquent speech in support of democracy and
respect for parliamentary institutions.
If I am not mistaken, today, March 10, is the birthday of his
father, Gilles Bellehumeur from Berthierville, whom we salute.
I want to ask the hon. member if he was listening when the
Reform Party leader said, and I quote: “It is time we stop
falling over backwards to accommodate separatists”.
They would have had to have been nice to us in the first place,
which is far from obvious. In any case, we never asked these
people to be nice to us.
I wonder if the hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm could elaborate
on the comment made by the leader of the official opposition.
Did he mean that, from now on, the Reform Party will no longer
show respect—lack of respect and intolerance being common traits
of Reformers—in this House the voice of 44 duly and
democratically elected members from Quebec, who represent a vast
majority of Quebeckers? Is this what the Reform Party leader
meant?
Does this intolerant and, frankly, paternalistic comment mean
that, in the future, whenever any of the 44 duly elected Bloc
Quebecois members will rise in this House, Reform Party members
will neither recognize nor show respect that member? Will
Reformers see to it that our right to speak is constantly
interfered with?
Is this what was implied? If so, is such attitude not
reminiscent of what used to be called fascism? It is something
totally unacceptable that could be associated with the Reform
Party. If we look at some action and comments made in the past,
including some intolerance shown toward the Chair, we see a
behaviour reminiscent of a group from the far right.
Could the hon. member elaborate on this.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Mr. Speaker, in response to the question
from the hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, we need only think
back to the last election campaign to answer the question as to
whether Reformers have always been nice, or ever were, to Bloc
members or to Quebec.
We need only remember that in the last election campaign, at
least half of the time, they ran their campaign on the back of
Quebec. Think of the slogans they were chanting during the last
campaign. To win votes in western Canada, they did it on the
backs of Quebeckers. They did not want a Quebec leader. They did
not want the big bad separatists to sit in this House, and so on.
They ran at least half of their campaign on the backs of
Quebeckers. We must bear this in mind, as I answer the hon.
member's question.
As for not being nice to separatists any more, I think they
never were, especially since they formed a coalition with the
government, in particular on plan B, the hard line plan against
Quebec, and sided with the Liberals over the reference to the
supreme court to try to change the rules of the game and scare
Quebeckers. I think the leader of the Reform Party is an ally of
the government.
In fact, on the whole reference issue, the Reformers are just
about the Liberals' only allies.
In addition, I think the hon. member is justified in wondering
how far the Reformers' intolerance will go. Where will this all
stop?
I am very concerned—it all depends on how you will rule, Mr.
Speaker, to put an end to this nonsense—that members of the
Reform Party, along with some government backbenchers, may indeed
attempt repeatedly in the future to interfere with our freedom of
speech, interrupt our remarks and prevent the 44 members of the
Bloc Quebecois, who were democratically elected in their
respective ridings, from doing their job. I think this is but the
beginning.
There was an incident on February 26, but unless a momentous
ruling is made by the Chair, I think worse may be yet to come,
with harsher attacks on the Canadian democratic system, hence the
important role you play in this matter, Mr. Speaker.
The ruling you will be making is extremely important for the
future of the Canadian parliamentary system.
1050
[English]
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
listened to the comments of the Bloc member with interest. He
said that they respect the Canadian flag, yet they oppose even
the waving of the flag in this House. They oppose the waving of
the Canadian flag in other countries of the world where Canada is
represented. I find that to be reprehensible. I assume from the
comments of the member that they want the fleur-de-lis to fly
instead of the Canadian flag.
Since they have so much respect for this country, for its
institutions and its flag, I will ask the member if he will be
singing O Canada tomorrow when it is sung in this House. Will he
be here to sing O Canada tomorrow?
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Mr. Speaker, I think this indicates very
clearly that the members of the Reform Party have understood
absolutely nothing and have no comprehension of the Quebec fact,
of Quebec's claims or anything at all.
First, on the subject of the flags at Nagano, or abroad, we were
upset by the arrogance of the Canadian organizers in plastering
the buildings with flags. There were too many. It was arrogant
and provocative in terms of the other countries that were
competing at the Olympic Games too.
It was arrogant and provocative behaviour on February 26 on the
part of the Liberals and the Reformers, when the member of the
Bloc Quebecois rose to put her question in this House. How did
they interrupt her? With the Canadian flag. On top of that,
how did they interrupt you, Mr. Speaker? With the national
anthem. That was provocation and arrogance.
In response to his wondering whether I will sing O Canada here in
this House, I tell him no—not because I have no respect for it.
An hon. member: It is in fact because we do respect it.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: It is because I respect it and because I
am told I sing off key, but I simply will not do it, because I
have no feeling for it. I feel no call when it is sung. I am
not drawn by deeper roots; it is Quebec that calls me. However,
I do not come because I have no respect for the national anthem.
I do not come because it is not what I am looking for.
However, I have great respect for the Canadian flag. No member
of the Bloc Quebecois has behaved disrespectfully toward Canada's
flag.
We have never shown disrespect nor said anything against the
national anthem. On the contrary, we hold it in respect, and it
is not the focus of today's debate.
I will close on this. I would add that the national anthem was
written by a Quebecker.
An hon. member: Hear, hear.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Perhaps the members of the Reform Party
did not know that, as they do not know a lot of things. I will
close by quoting the remarks our leader made in the House
yesterday. I think they summarize the debate very well, and
perhaps the Reformers should pay attention to what I am going to
say. The Bloc leader said:
Members of this House must not make the Speaker feel that, should
he rule in favour of the separatists and against the flag, he
would have to resign or be replaced.
He also said, Mr. Speaker, that you must not rule in favour of
the flag over the separatists but rather in favour of compliance
with the Standing Orders over failure to comply with them. That
is the issue, and I dare to hope that your ruling on the matter
will be enlightened.
1055
[English]
The Speaker: Pursuant to the order made earlier today,
this terminates the debate on the question of privilege. We will
now proceed to orders of the day.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[Translation]
THE BUDGET
FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF MINISTER OF FINANCE
The House resumed from March 9 consideration of the motion that
this House approves in general the budgetary policy of the
Government.
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to
have this opportunity to comment on the budget brought down by
the Minister of Finance on February 24. The budget sets out the
federal government's priorities for the coming years.
Unfortunately, this government's priorities are far from being
Canadians' priorities.
This budget does not address the concerns of Canadians. It says
nothing about job creation, nothing about our crumbling health
system, and contains but a few crumbs when it comes to the
serious problem of poverty and education.
I would like to begin by looking at job creation. The Liberals
were elected in 1993. During their campaign, they spoke about
job creation. Now we hear in the House that it is not the
government's responsibility to create jobs, but it was a
different story before they got elected: “We are going to create
jobs. Elect us and we will create jobs”. Once in office, it was
no longer their responsibility. That was what the Liberals said
in 1993, and now they are saying it is no longer their
responsibility.
Today, five years later, 9% of Canadian workers are receiving EI
benefits, not to mention how many are on welfare.
Yesterday, it was pointed out that 730,000 people who used to
qualify for EI had had to turn to welfare. This is a national
disgrace.
Today they rise in their places and tell us how wonderful they
are. It is unbelievable, completely unbelievable.
It is the government's responsibility to build infrastructures
that will lead to job creation. Take the natural gas line in
New Brunswick. Why have it go from Nova Scotia, and then turn at
Moncton and continue on to Saint John and then Boston, instead
of having it go through New Brunswick, benefiting the whole
province, connecting it to Bernier in Quebec, and going on to
make it a national line? Why not do that? But no. They are
going to have it turn at Moncton and then go through Saint John
to Boston, so they can sell gas to the Americans. But Canadians
are not going to reap the benefits.
I suppose, for example, that not everyone can benefit from the
arrival of a company in New Brunswick, in terms of the jobs
created. Residents of northern New Brunswick, where the
unemployment rate is 19.9%, will not benefit from it. They will
not benefit from companies coming to our province because it
costs these companies less to operate their business. Of course
not. But the government has a responsibility. It is the
government that gives the green light. “We are not concerned
about you, even though the unemployment rate stands at 19.9%,
not to mention the number of people on welfare. We are not
concerned about you”.
We have to be careful about the budget. The government is
boasting about a zero deficit. Great, but at whose expense has
this been achieved? It was done at the expense of the poor.
A lady phoned me last week. Yesterday, I listened to a Reformer
who mentioned the case of a lady in his riding and wondered what
would happen to her because she must pay $800 in taxes. It may be
that Reformers only get one such call, but I get 50 every day.
So, a lady phoned me and said “Yvon, what can you do for us? My
husband and I are on welfare. The wood in our house is rotten all
the way up to the windows. In the bathroom, we have to be careful
not to fall through the floor and end up in the basement. The
kitchen floor is not even covered with linoleum and the fridge is
empty”.
1100
That is more worrisome than someone who cannot pay $800 in income
tax. I had a call from another lady who said “Mr. Godin,
yesterday my husband and I thought about shooting our kids and
then ourselves, because we can no longer feed them”. That is
more of a concern than reaching a zero deficit, far more.
I cannot bear to watch our country get into debt, but neither can
I bear to watch the country pay its debts at the expense of the
poor. That is not what the Liberals said while they were
campaigning. They talked about job creation, and now today that
is no longer their responsibility. They have the responsibility
to administer the country justly, not to impoverish people still
further. That is their responsibility.
Those hon. members from northern or southern Ontario whom I hear
telling us that all their constituents are in favour of the
federal budget, very much in favour of it, let them come down to
New Brunswick and they will see people who are far less in
favour of it.
The provincial health minister stated on tv or radio, and in the
press, that there is absolutely nothing in the budget for health
in New Brunswick. The provincial education minister was quoted in
the newspaper and interviewed on television—and we cannot claim he
was misquoted by the journalists because he was the one
speaking—as saying there is nothing for education.
The New Brunswick finance minister appeared in print and on
television stating that there is nothing for New Brunswick.
Their counterparts in Newfoundland said the same thing, as did
the premier of PEI. Are they all lying? These are all Liberals.
The New Brunswick finance minister, Edmond Blanchard, is a
Liberal. Russell King is a Liberal. What have they done? They
have put money into health and have tried to defend their actions
in the area of health. They were given money and they do not
know how to manage it.
There was a time when provincial money was spent on health. The
provinces were not given the chance to spend it on whatever they
wanted, to pass it on to their friends, as we have seen in our
province with Doug Young for the four lane toll highway. That
was not the case in the past. The money went into health.
If money was given for education, where did it end up? In
education. Not any more. The government is administering the
country badly, I can assure you of that, because their own
Liberal counterparts in the provinces are saying so.
So was it because they have not read the budget or do not know
how to read, or because they cannot count or do the math? They
are trying to shift blame to others, but who created the system
that allows this? The Liberals did.
But the bottom line is that people are suffering. I get calls,
and I know that people from my riding are listening today and
know what I am talking about when I say that I am getting 50
calls a day and cannot even get back to everyone. They are
destitute but they want to work. They are courageous people,
not lazy like a former minister in this House would have us
believe. Our people are hard-working. When a company starts up
and says it wants to hire 300 people, 2,000 to 3,000 people
apply. Then it turns out to be a false alarm because the company
is not starting up after all.
We are talking about hard-working people who want to go out and
work.
And then there is the business with EI. Yesterday, the Minister
of Human Resources Development turned around and said they were
not his changes, that the three reforms had begun with the
Conservatives and the Liberals had followed on. Two weeks ago,
he said it was too soon to say what was happening, to know how
many people were affected.
I urge the minister to come with me and visit homes in my riding
where there is nothing on the floor but holes and no food in the
refrigerator. I issue an invitation.
Then the government boasts about all the money it has set aside
for education. Only 7.1% of students attending university will
benefit from the fund; the remaining 92.9% will get zip.
And they are so pleased with themselves.
1105
Imagine trying to convince Canadians that this is a good budget.
When we look at what is happening in hospitals, when we see the
elderly and the young in the corridors, that is the health system
the Liberals have given Canadians. Before the budget, Canadians'
message was clear: “We want money to be put into the health
system. Nothing is more important than Canadians' health”.
The Liberals did not listen. They let Canadians down, paid no
attention. For the good of this country's inhabitants, I call on
the Liberals to examine their conscience.
[English]
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
the member who just spoke has outlined an scenario where the
government should take a posture where it is responsible for all
things and the solution to all things. In my experience in
corporate life and in government life, for every complex problem
there is a simple solution, and it is wrong.
The member has suggested that this is a bad budget and that the
government has forced Canadians into poverty. Yet the member did
not concede at any point that Canadians have a role to play as
well. The member talked a lot about education. I would raise
with him the issue of education. As he knows, the budget
contains substantial provisions for assisting Canadians to
improve their educational background so they can acquire those
jobs they need so they will not be in poverty. I would raise
specifically for him the issue of the level of education with
regard to youth unemployment.
For a university graduate under 25 their unemployment rate in
Canada now is about 6.5%. For a high school graduate their
unemployment rate is approximately 15%. But for a high school
drop-out their unemployment rate today will be somewhere in the
range of 23%. The member is from New Brunswick. He probably
should know that the drop-out rate in New Brunswick approaches
30%.
That directly relates to the level of unemployment and certainly
the level of poverty and difficulty that some Canadians have. As
the member also knows, the jurisdiction with regard to high
school education is provincial. He should look very carefully at
what each of the provinces has done to invest in those young
people to provide for their future.
The member also talks about families and I praise him for
raising the issue of families. It is very important. He knows
that the budget brought in an important first step, a care giver
tax credit related to home care for those who prefer care in the
home for the infirm or the aged. He knows that there is a
commitment on behalf of the government to home care and to
pharmacare and to those kinds of issues.
He must also recognize that we have just balanced the budget and
we are now turning a critical corner in which we will be able to
reinvest. Those items are there.
I would ask the member philosophically whether he would agree
that there is an important role for all to play to invest in
things like early childhood development and the early education
of children, et cetera, so that some of these problems like
unemployment, health care and social programs would be alleviated
in order that all Canadians, regardless of their status in life,
have a role to play in ensuring that we have Canadians who are
physically, mentally and socially healthy.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvon Godin: Madam Speaker, I would first like to thank my
colleague for his question. It gives me an opportunity to
elaborate on my ideas a bit. I honestly did not come to Ottawa
to play games. I believe in our people. I think they are
hard-working people.
Supposedly at home some 30% of young people drop out of school.
But those who go to school and university end up with debts of
$25,000 or $30,000. They cannot repay them, and their parents
are stuck with them. There is no work, and that has to be taken
into account.
1110
What does February's budget have to offer? Perhaps a $3,500
exemption on a loan, but people who are unemployed will still
have $22,000 to pay back. They come out of university and have
no work. That is one of the major problems.
I will give you an example of what happens at home. With the
employment insurance surplus—since there is the $5 million the
federal government gave—we should be able to resolve the
problems with employment insurance, but things are done always
at the last minute. There is no way to get organized ahead of
time to give our people a good education. It is a last-minute
band-aid approach that is badly organized.
I said there are things we can do, and we will do them by
working together.
[English]
Hon. Ethel Blondin-Andrew (Secretary of State (Children and
Youth), Lib.): Madam Speaker, as the member of Parliament for
Western Arctic, I am proud to stand here today as a northerner, a
Canadian and a member of this government to speak to the budget
debate.
First, I want to commend the Prime Minister and the Minister of
Finance for their leadership which has brought our nation to this
turning point. Canadians can look to the millennium with hope
and anticipation of still better things to come.
Unfortunately the whole debate that preceded this casts a long
dark shadow over this debate. It is quite unfortunate that some
members of this House feel they have a hierarchy that is higher
than the ordinary Canadian, better than most members of
Parliament, that they are in a preferred category of having the
ideologies that speak better to all Canadians than other members.
This is unfortunate. No one is more godly than God, more
Canadian than Canadians. When we are all sent here by Canadians
to work with one another to co-operate and to share a great sense
of duty to do what is right for the Canadian people, we should
not be appealing to the dark sides of one another. We should not
be appealing and speaking to each other's weaknesses. We should
do something quite unusual. We should be helping one another to
promote the ideals of Canadians. It is unfortunate that we have
this kind of blatant arrogance and ignorance that seems to be
predominating in this House.
Unfortunately this affects our work. It affects the kind of
work that can happen in committees. It affects the kind of
relationships we can build to do good things for Canadians.
Maybe after 10 years I see things a little differently. My
primary role is not to self-aggrandize but to try to promote what
Canadians want us to do. If I look at the budget I see something
that is quite relevant to my mandate. My mandate is for children
and youth. What I find in this budget is that we have done what
no federal government in Canadian history has done. We have
followed an economic policy and undertaken the kind of specific
initiatives that are more in tune with the hopes and dreams of
young Canadians and their families.
Speaking of young Canadians and on the issue of young, I had the
privilege of working with Doug Young, the former minister of
human resources development. Mr. Young is a very accomplished
Canadian. Mr. Young is the minister who allowed the department
to double the funding for youth summer employment. We went under
minister Doug Young's leadership from $62 million a year to $120
million because he believed that young people across the country
should have that privilege. I have no doubt in my mind that the
former minister will create many jobs out there in what he does.
Those were his parting words, I was doing that and now I am going
out there to try to help people create jobs to help people. I
believe that.
Let us look at youth unemployment. Unemployment is one of the
most serious problems facing young Canadians. We are moving on
many fronts to help young people to prepare to find and to keep
jobs. Last year we introduced our youth employment strategy with
a budget of $315 million. To encourage employment for young
Canadians in this budget we offer an EI premium holiday to
employers to hire persons between the ages of 18 and 24 in 1999
and 2000.
This measure will pick up and expand the existing new hires
program. It will make it more attractive for employers to hire
young people.
1115
The budget will also help youth at risk, particularly those who
have not completed high school and have difficulty finding and
keeping work. This is very important. It is important that we
make an investment in the education of young people. It is
important that we do early intervention.
Like many of my colleagues from all sides of the House, I spent
last week in my constituency and in other parts of Canada. I
evaluated what we are doing as a government in terms of policy
and programs and services and how they affect the lives of
children, youth and communities that work in early intervention
programs.
I started in Inuvik, Northwest Territories. I visited a whole
round of programs and services and ended with town halls where I
heard people's concerns. There are some difficulties and
challenges but good things are happening as well.
In Inuvik we visited a child care program and saw infants to
preschool age children. They were working with their mothers in
child development in a setting that was conducive to proper
nurturing. We also visited a computer lab. Students who had had
difficulties in pursuing education are all gainfully occupied in
learning new skills, in working together and in getting
themselves into the system. It is quite marvellous and we had a
chance to experience that. We shared with parents and other
people in the community their concerns about the future of their
young people.
Then we travelled to another isolated community, Fort Simpson.
We were able to see the benefits of what is happening with
prenatal nutrition. There is a lot of talk about child poverty
and rightfully so. We all have that commitment and dedication.
In Fort Simpson, Northwest Territories we saw a centre that is
working with young people. We talked to people who are
undertaking a youth service Canada project that speaks to
community service. These are young people who have essentially
failed in the regular system, the institutionalized form of
education. These young people went out on the land. They
worked, hunted and shared their kill with the community. They
did community service. They cut a lot of wood for the elders who
needed it cut. These are things that are really hard to
institutionalize but need to be done. This is the kind of
community service young people are undertaking but which is not
recognized. We only hear about the bad things about young
people.
There were 12 points in Fort Simpson at which programs and
services were being undertaken in early childhood development.
The open door society does wonderful work there. Government
cannot go in and save communities. Communities that organize
themselves are the ones that are able to do it. We can best
accomplish what we need to accomplish by empowering them and
assisting them.
Then we went to Hay River, Northwest Territories. We met with
various groups. We checked some snares with the preschool and
head start children from the reserve in Hay River. These young
people have had many kinds of cultural experiences that are very
good for their nurturing and development.
We went to a youth service Canada project. Young people with the
Metis nation were working in various communities. One set up an
elders visitors centre. Another did the layout for a magazine
which talked about what young people were doing. Others carried
on with other projects. Some of the young people were moving on
to other experiences.
We visited a group of young people in another program. They
were on the verge of dropping out but are now getting quite high
marks because an investment was made and an instructor was hired.
They are now prepared to reintegrate into their regular high
school and they are going there with special skills.
They are able to take life skills. They are able to have
discussions about complicated and sensitive issues. They are
also able to write their own resumes. These are basic functional
skills which are needed to get into the workplace. They are all
things that these young people experienced.
1120
To round out the week I met with a hard working and dedicated
group of professionals. They work on the whole issue of fetal
alcohol syndrome and fetal alcohol effects. This is where we need
to continue to work.
Previously the Stan Wilbee report was done in a standing
committee of the House of Commons. We need to revisit some of the
goals and recommendations in that report. Perhaps it might be
advisable that we do a national survey of best practices of what
is happening.
The group is guided by the leadership of Dr. Geoff Robinson. He
is one of the foremost experts on FAS and FAE and works with
other professionals in B.C. They do very good work. This has to
be promoted.
Perhaps what is needed is a national committee or working group
to dedicate itself to some broader issues related to FAS and FAE.
We also need to work into the national children's agenda and the
centres of excellence a cornerstone piece of research on FAS and
FAE.
If people are wondering how fetal alcohol syndrome and fetal
alcohol effects relate to their particular area of concern, look
at the young offenders who are filling the juvenile delinquent
centres. Many of them suffer from FAS and FAE. There is a
direct correlation. It is very relevant to what we are trying to
do in other areas.
We need to seriously look at an approach that is going to
promote the work that is happening on this particular issue.
To end the week on Sunday, I joined Senator Landon Pearson and a
young lady by the name of Cherry Kingsley at an international
conference on the sexual exploitation of children.
Under the tutelage of Senator Landon Pearson and others, Miss
Cherry Kingsley, who is a young aboriginal person originally from
Alkali Lake has taken the leadership. She has taken charge of
how to change the world into a safer place for her and her
colleagues and to perhaps find a different path and if not, to at
least have security for those persons who are affected by all of
these things.
This was an international conference. There were people from
Bolivia, Guatemala and representatives from the UN.
It is a very serious issue which all members should consider.
All this is to say, yes, there are many challenges we face but I
also know there is much happening.
Most of what I have just said refers to youth at risk. This is
a very important issue. In 1995 more than 160,000 Canadians
between 22 and 24 years of age had not completed high school.
They are at risk of repeated unemployment because the workplace
continues to demand ever higher levels of education and skills
they do not have.
There are many such programs. We have doubled money for the
youth at risk program because we have experienced an 85% success
rate with youth service Canada. Most participants have either
found permanent employment or have gone back to school full time
or part time. It is the reintegration of young people who were
totally socially marginalized because they were not in the
education loop or any other social milieu that would help them
advance in society.
Everyone knows about the Canada millennium scholarships. There
has been much talk about that. There are 100,000 students per
year with scholarships averaging $3,000 a year.
This will provide relief to graduates who are having trouble
managing their student debt load. There are other measures which
will make it easier for students and their families to finance
higher education.
1125
In the budget there is the opportunities strategy which
equalizes access in another way. There is increased funding for
SchoolNet and the community access program. There is also $205
million of increased funding to connect Canadians which will help
young people, especially those in rural communities.
We talked about child poverty. One of the ways we thought we
could augment our efforts was to invest $850 million in the
national child tax benefit. That will happen in July.
Furthermore we will invest another $425 million in July 1999 and
another $425 million in July 2000.
These measures will mean cost savings in social assistance. Our
big battle is how to reinvest that money with our provincial
partners in youth programs.
Perhaps the whole area of FAS and FAE, fetal alcohol syndrome
and fetal alcohol effects, is one of special need. Other special
needs children are falling between the cracks in regular learning
institutions. We need to give further consideration to that
issue. Perhaps this would be an opportunity for us to integrate
it into the national children's agenda which is currently being
undertaken.
I would like to talk about the north a bit. I deal very much
with child and youth issues and I would like to give some
consideration to the area I come from. I would like to point out
how the opportunities in the budget will affect northern
Canadians.
At page 61 of the budget the government commits to working with
territorial governments and other partners to develop a modern
economic development strategy which will recognize the dynamics
of the north and the need to establish more diversified
economies. The government recognizes that the economies of
Canada's territories are undergoing significant change.
Everyone knows that in April 1999 we will face the division of
the territories into the western part and Nunavut. Northern
governments must embrace diversification by pursuing all forms of
sustainable development from traditional economic activities such
as hunting, trapping, arts and crafts, and the development of
other art forms to the new knowledge based industries and to
Canada's first diamond industry.
As many know, the Northwest Territories are on the verge of
becoming a major source of diamonds with the first production
expected this October. Northerners are now exploring how to
maximize northern participation in all aspects of the diamond
industry. A secondary or a value added industry is very much on
the minds of many northerners and very much the debate of the day
in the north. Throughout the north, diversification, full
participation and sustainable development are watch words for
economic strategies which will bring us into the new century.
I look forward to working with my colleagues in cabinet and my
colleagues in the north to make this commitment a reality which
will have a real impact on northerners. Canada has an opportunity
to map a blueprint for a more secure future for northerners from
which all of Canada can benefit.
There are other measures in this budget which northerners will
find beneficial, such as increases in funding for First Nations
and Inuit health services. These are necessary to keep pace with
population increases. We have committed to similar increases in
transfer programs which will be administered by the Department of
Indian Affairs and Northern Development.
I must point out that the north has a very young and growing
population compared with the rest of the country. These
increases are absolutely essential in maintaining the progress we
have made in the health of northern peoples.
All of the budget commitments demonstrate a balanced and
compassionate approach by this government to our young people, to
health care, to social services and to the economic well-being of
Canadians from all regions while maintaining the kind of fiscal
responsibility Canadians expect.
We could not have done it without Canadians. Canadians helped
us carve this path and make the commitments we have made to
children and youth. As the Secretary of State for Children and
Youth, I feel we are on a very good path with our young people.
We are fixated on early intervention, childhood development and
parenting skills. These are the essentials for building healthy
citizens in our society.
1130
In terms of the Northwest Territories, we are undergoing a huge
change. As of October we are essentially going to become the
largest diamond producing centre in the western hemisphere but we
need the resources and the infrastructure to help businesses take
advantage of the opportunities there.
From our visits across the Northwest Territories, we know that
the highest form of building on capacity is to empower people. We
cannot do for people what people can do for themselves.
Governments are facilitators and catalysts, not doers. It is the
people in the community at the grassroots who will make the
difference for themselves and their sense of self-determination.
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, NDP): Madam Speaker, I know
there are others who want to ask questions so I will keep my
questions very short.
Last week I had the opportunity to meet with a number of
aboriginal leaders from central British Columbia. They pointed
out two serious concerns that they faced, recognizing the need
for empowerment and the fact that they feel they can solve so
many of the challenges facing them on their own, but they do need
further education and training. A number of individuals living
on reserves indicated that they simply are not able to access
funding for education, particularly at the post-secondary level.
It is a serious problem.
Second, native young people who see part of the answer to be
through friendship centres are complaining about the dramatic
lack of funding to support the programs in the friendship
centres.
Could my hon. friend comment on these two areas where yes, there
is support today, but I think she would also agree that the
funding is seriously underfunded in terms of the challenges and
the needs there? What hope can she give that changes are in the
offing?
Hon. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Madam Speaker, I am very
pleased that my hon. colleague asked this question. It gives me
an opportunity to share some information with him that he or some
of the young people he spoke about may not be aware of.
For three years, ending in 1999, we have invested $200 million
for a labour market training program called the regional
bilateral agreements which were done under national frameworks.
All the labour market development programs have gone to the
provinces or territories except in the case of First Nations,
Inuit and Metis. We did framework agreements with them and then
struck regional bilateral agreements so that money could flow to
the people from those boards that are designated by those people
who make those decisions. An amount of money has been out there
and it is a lot of money.
I was involved with the negotiations in B.C. We cannot
guarantee that every single individual who wants to be served at
a certain level will be served because we have removed that
responsibility from ourselves.
Post-secondary education is an issue that has, I believe, some
crossover. There have been some sponsorships. In fact, the
Metis from Ontario took some of this money and did a scholarship
program with their partners so there was a lot of leveraging
going on.
Further to that, we have just built what we call the aboriginal
human resources development strategy. It will be funded to a
higher amount, I believe, than the current arrangement. However,
as soon as this one ends in 1999 another one kicks in for another
five years. It does not quite meet what the royal commission
wanted which was 10 years but we did not feel we could do that so
we did it for an additional 5 years. There will be more money
there than there was previously. It will be for training in
labour market development. This is not necessarily
post-secondary education but it does not necessarily exclude that
either.
The national association of friendship centres get their core
funding from heritage, so I cannot speak to that. Because the
centres were not under the $200 million, we set aside a separate
provision of $26 million under which the friendship centres
benefited.
1135
They were the beneficiaries. I cannot remember their exact
amount but they are beneficiaries under the $26 million and I am
not sure how they spend that money but that is entirely within
their purview on setting their priorities and what they should
do.
There is a cry about core funding but that is not something that
I have the responsibility for or can speak to.
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Madam Speaker, in
1993 when we first came to this Parliament, I remember the
statement on several occasions that there were somewhere in the
neighbourhood of one million children in this country living in
poverty and suffering.
In 1994 I heard the same thing. In 1995, 1996, 1997 and now in
1998 I still hear the same thing. Over one million children are
living in poverty in this land and we need to address that. I
know that the children aid societies in most of the cities that
are trying so desperately to take care of so many people are
struggling in terms of dollars and cents. We have not seemed to
have gained anywhere because of the million children figure we
keep hearing about continues to exist each and every year.
The education the member was talking about is good to hear and
the opportunity to expand on that is great. But right now I am
referring to young people, young children and families across
this land who do not know for sure where their next meal is going
to come from, who do not have proper clothing to wear in some of
the wicked winter months that come through. There is genuine
suffering going on and yet each year nothing seems to change.
We find millions and millions of dollars to give away for free
flags which is a nice thing to do, nobody would deny that, but
surely $25 million for flags would have fed a lot of hungry kids.
There are kids out there who need dental work and they cannot get
it done. Nobody can afford it, yet convicts in our
penitentiaries eat three square meals a day, they are very
comfortable at night in terms of getting out of the weather. A
dentist visits the institution and takes care of their teeth.
They are getting better treatment than our young people out there
in that million who are starving.
This budget does not do anything to address that, nor any budget
in the past since I have been here. I would like to know why. I
would like the member to answer that.
Second, I would like to know why, by the auditor general's
reports and everything through Indian affairs, for every dollar
funnelled in at the top here only about 20 cents reaches the
reserve where it is mostly needed. In the Stony reserve where I
have toured around many times, there are people suffering and I
would like to know why these budgets do not address those very
basic needs. The education and the at risk programs I understand.
That is all good. Nobody denies that. But what about the very
basics?
Hon. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Madam Speaker, I am really
pleased that my hon. colleague has risen on this issue. It shows
his commitment and concern and I would like to just let him know
that we have had great opportunities in the last little while.
His representatives at the provincial level as well as federal
partners in terms of our minister and the Minister of Health are
working on a national children's agenda.
It is unfortunate that we do have a child poverty issue but let
me tell the member what is the basis of this. We have to empower
and engage parents in order to deal with part of the problem. If
the hon. colleague cared to be so informed we could provide him
with an overview of some of the most successful programs we have
that have made a difference in the lives of children. Those are
the programs I saw this week when I travelled in my riding and
they are prevalent, hundreds of them across the country. He
should take the opportunity.
There are community action plans for children's programs and
prenatal nutrition programs. There are headstart programs, there
are First Nation Inuit child care programs. There are many other
initiatives. The community action plan for children's programs,
the centre of excellence for children and the $850 million that
we talked about that kicks in in July will give more money to low
income families.
We have also done a bit of debt relief for those low income
families as well and we were not going to book until the next
budget week but we have booked the additional, doubled that $850
million. This will accrue in savings on social assistance which
should be able to be reinvested back to children.
This is the agreement we have with our provinces.
1140
Regarding the auditor general's report, I cannot speak for
Indian affairs but I can speak for what human resources
development does.
The agreements that we have struck are based on client to
service. We will not prop up the industry of poverty. We will
not prop up the industry of employment. What we are doing is
giving the money directly to the people who are affected. The
$200 million I spoke about earlier, that is the way we administer
it. There is an element of risk. We know that but we have a
strong accountability framework. We give them money directly so
they can serve the clients. It does not go to a middle person or
an middle organization. It goes directly into servicing the
clients we have.
Our youth programs are like that. We put a very small
percentage of our money into youth programs which results in
complaints. We do not provide core funding. We believe the
organizations wanting to engage have the ability to do so and
have the infrastructure for that. We give them money that goes
directly to the young people who are affected.
With Youth Service Canada many of our youth who participate end
up with a completion bonus fee. If they finish the program, they
get some money at the end to take a supportable wage subsidy,
tuition paydown or another form of credit note for starting a
small business.
[Translation]
Mr. René Laurin (Joliette, BQ): Madam Speaker, I would like to
inform you that I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the
hon. member for Trois-Rivières.
The message I would like to share with the citizens of Canada
and those of Quebec in particular is that the budget tabled by
the Minister of Finance has left a bitter taste in our mouths as
it is very generous with other people's money. For years now, the
federal government has been saving money on the backs of the
provinces, the disadvantaged and the workers.
Statistics show that, between 1994 and 1998, federal transfer
payments to the provinces were cut by 52%.
While the federal government reduced its own spending by only
12%, cuts in tax relief and transfer payments to individuals
amounted to 37%. At the same time, the federal government gave
itself a 51% share of any new spending to be incurred between now
and the year 2000.
After impoverishing people and lessening the power of the
provinces, putting them in a situation I would describe as
perilous, the government then tries to pass itself off as a
saviour and tells people “See, were it not for us in the federal
government, you would not be getting the help you need right
now”. The fact of the matter is that, were it not for the federal
government, we would not be in this situation in the first place,
a situation the government itself has dragged us into by spending
wildly left and right in the past few years.
The federal government, which is primarily responsible for this
situation, would have individual taxpayers believe it is their
saviour.
In an editorial comment in Le Devoir, renowned journalist
Jean-Robert Sansfaçon gives the following analysis of the
situation:
In an effort to save about $6 billion a year, Ottawa presumably
sent a $2.5 billion bill to the provinces. To add insult to
injury, the Chrétien government cut transfer payments intended to
cover part of the costs of social assistance.
1145
On the one hand, there is the classic example of employment
insurance. What has the federal government accomplished with
it? It has given less money to the unemployed. In reality,
there are far fewer unemployed persons eligible for employment
insurance. What do people do when they are not eligible for
employment insurance? They turn to welfare, which is a
provincial responsibility.
Indirectly, through its employment insurance reform, the federal
government has imposed an additional financial burden on the
provinces, because people turn to welfare in order to survive.
As we know, welfare is a provincial responsibility.
Provincial expenditures are increased because of the welfare
burden, yet their transfer payment revenue from Ottawa is cut.
The provincial governments therefore have more responsibilities,
but lower revenues to meet them. Why is this? Because of
federal government actions.
That is why it has always been said that this country had one
government too many. One government—the federal—never stops trying
to acquire powers, with the result that the powers of the
provincial governments are increasingly becoming merely
symbolic. I am certain that the underlying intent of this
federalist government is to one day end up with a single
government in this country, the one in Ottawa.
This is what Quebec has been opposing for years, because it knows
that such a system would result in Quebeckers being assimilated.
They would see their culture assimilated, their traditions
assimilated; their language, their fundamental values and
everything that makes Quebec different would be drowned out
under a single government, which would be called the Ottawa
government, the Canadian government.
This is sadistic; every time the government, from one budget to
another, from one election to another, gains a year, or four or
five years, this is just one more step toward subjugation of the
provinces to the federal government. This is the ultimate
objective of this government, one that never changes, regardless
of which party is in power.
Right now, we have a Liberal government, but the situation would
be exactly the same if the Conservatives or the Reformers were in
office. This is because the underlying objective is not to create
a true partnership with the provinces, as could have been
developed and implemented since 1867, but to subject the
provinces to the authority of the federal government.
Here is another example. I just referred to employment insurance
and welfare, two areas of provincial jurisdiction the federal
government has encroached upon. Another example is that great
initiative announced in the Liberal budget, the millennium
scholarship fund.
As was said, and it is worth repeating again, this is a spending
initiative in an area of provincial jurisdiction.
Quebec already has a loans and grants program that is the envy
of all the students and stakeholders in the other provinces,
whether at the elementary, secondary, post-secondary or university
level. These people are unanimous in praising Quebec's loans and
grants program, which is unique in the sense that the other
provinces do not offer grants.
The federal government, under the pretence of helping less
fortunate students, decided to spend $2.5 billion in the
country, with the obvious goal of being able to tell students
“What the province cannot do for you in education, the federal
government can, thus helping you continue your education”.
1150
Why are the provinces hard pressed to resolve the educational
problem? Because the federal government, since 1993, has cut
billions of dollars from education and health care. It has cut
money to the provinces and now wants to give back some—and I
mean only some—to individuals, like students, so they will
realize the situation they would be in were it not for the
federal government. That is what is ironic about the situation.
Everytime the government has a chance, it deprives the provinces
of real and potential revenues, which it should be giving back to
them as transfer payments, and then, it uses that money for other
purposes.
The millennium scholarships are simply a means for the government
to raise its visibility and the number of votes for federalism.
That is all. The average debt of students in Quebec is $11,000.
In the other provinces it is $25,000. The problem is really
different in Quebec. There a system of loans and grants already
in existence. In the other provinces it is not as well developed
or sometimes there is none.
Quebec is calling on the federal government to allow it to
withdraw from this program and to give it financial compensation
to enable it to set its own educational priorities, wherever it
has identified them. It considers it is better placed to
identify its own priorities.
Children arrive at school in the morning without eating or having
a glass of milk. For the most part, these children live below
the poverty line.
I hope to have an opportunity through questions and comments to
finish explaining the example I wanted to give you.
[English]
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
I do have a comment and a question for the member. I would like
to state on the record that I was delighted that the secretary of
state who spoke previously raised in the House again the issue of
fetal alcohol syndrome and fetal alcohol effects. It is a very
important issue to Canadians. It costs us $2.1 billion a year to
deal with this problem. I appreciate her raising this in the
House.
The member who just spoke has raised a number of issues. I
would like to focus on the thing that he raised with regard to
the federal government, as he put it, grasping power for itself.
The member will know that Canadians look to leadership from the
federal government on a broad range of issues. In partnership
with the provinces on a wide range of areas such as health care,
post-secondary education and social security, the provinces are
the front line and administrators and deliverers of those
services. That partnership is extremely important.
The member also referred to what he called downloading and
offloading and that the transfers under the Canada health and
social transfer have been reduced. There is no question that
that is true. He also should acknowledge that with the federal
funding of the health care system, post-secondary education and
the social security system, the provinces were granted taxing
authority called tax points.
Under the tax points, although the cash transfers may have gone
down by some $7 billion, the value of the tax revenue to the
provinces has gone up about $3.5 billion. The net effect is that
the burden that the provinces were asked to share in dealing with
the $42 billion deficit was much, much smaller than the federal
government in its programs absorbed.
The provinces were asked to do a very small share of it. Indeed
we have many provinces now which have balanced budgets and which
have granted tax breaks to their constituents and not
correspondingly shown that health care and post-secondary is a
priority for their government. The member should well know that
there are two partners in this.
My question has to do with the direct issue of the millennium
scholarship fund.
1155
There is no question that education is important and one of the
most significant elements with regard to the success of people
having a job. The member will know that university graduates
have an unemployment rate of only about 6.5%. He will also know
that high school drop-outs in Quebec approach almost 40%. It is
the highest number in all of the provinces.
I would ask the member simply to answer the direct question
whether or not he feels that students in Quebec should say no to
the millennium scholarship fund in their best interest?
[Translation]
Mr. René Laurin: Madam Speaker, the hon. member opposite
demonstrated the federal government's inability to understand
the problems confronting the provinces when he spoke of
partnership. But what kind of partnership is there in the
millennium scholarship fund? The federal government plans to
consult the provinces after the millennium foundation has been
established. In a partnership, people sit down with their
partners and discuss the best ways of dealing with problems.
He mentioned as another example the fact that zero deficit has
already been achieved in some provinces; therefore, the measures
put forward by the federal government will help all the
provinces. This is not exactly the case in Quebec and Ontario.
These are the only two provinces that do not have a balanced
budget as of yet. Their circumstances being different, it is
normal that their priorities and the solutions contemplated are
different.
Perhaps students in Quebec will not say no to millennium
scholarships. But when the hon. member describes the suicide
rate in Quebec as one of the highest, does he think that the
introduction of these scholarships will result in fewer students
dropping out and fewer suicides in Quebec? Whether or not there
are millennium scholarships has nothing to do with the dropout
rate. We already have a loans and grants program in Quebec.
The cause lies elsewhere. That is why Quebec asked the federal
government for compensation to help it address problems
identified in education, problems like children who have nothing
to eat before leaving for school in the morning or children
without appropriate supervision who are suicidal or those who
need psychological treatment that cannot be subsidized because of
the cuts in transfer payments. That is what partnership is about,
when one understands what it means.
Mr. Yves Rocheleau (Trois-Rivières, BQ): Madam Speaker, I am very
pleased to take part in this debate on the budget. I will direct
my remarks primarily at the millennium scholarships which, while
little has been said, are evidence of the federal government's
wish to change the rules of the game and shift the focus of
decision making from the provinces to Ottawa in the next century.
We would enter a new era in Canada, and the millennium
scholarships are a very good example, where centralization will
be complete and Canada will behave like a unitary country, where
provincial governments will increasingly be viewed as regional
governments, thus flouting the Canadian Constitution, which
gives the provinces very specific jurisdictions.
This is a direct attack on the whole issue of Quebec, because we
are a people, not just a province, although a province is all we
are considered to be right now.
The debate is not over, because these issues are fundamental to
the development of our societies.
As for the millennium scholarships, some context is required.
The federal government wants to set up a special $2.5 billion
fund, that would provide for approximately 100,000 scholarships
averaging $3,000 over a ten-year period beginning, as it happens,
two years from now. There are a number of criteria for awarding
these scholarships, notably merit and mobility.
What people need to know is that, as this fund is being
contemplated, tuition fees in Quebec are approximately $1,700,
while they are about $3,200, or almost twice that amount, in
Canada. In Quebec, student indebtedness stands at an average of
$11,000, while it is $22,000 in the rest of Canada.
1200
It must also be realized that, from 1993 to 2003, according to
the federal government's budget, transfers to the provinces for
education will have been reduced by $10 billion, including $3
billion for Quebec alone. These cuts have already greatly
increased the debt load of students in Quebec and in Canada and
of post-secondary institutions.
Just this morning I read in the
paper that the CEGEP of Trois-Rivières is calling for help,
because it is at the end of its rope. Who is listening? The MNA
for Trois-Rivières, a Quebec minister, and not the federal
government, which does not care and keeps making cuts at the
expense of the provinces.
There are cries for help in my riding because the federal cuts
have made it impossible to provide the services college students
used to get. It is almost indecent on the part of the federal
government to take cover in this fashion, while all the pressure
is on the Quebec government, considering that federal measures
contributed to the problems we are now facing.
We already have the Canada student loan program, but the federal
government is adding the millennium scholarship fund, which will
be based on merit. Quebec is being denied the right to opt out of
that initiative, contrary to what was agreed in 1964 between the
Lesage and Pearson governments, when the Canada student loan
program was established. This right to opt out of the millennium
scholarship fund is being denied to the people of Quebec. This is
unacceptable. If the federal government respected the letter and
the spirit of the Canadian Constitution, it would promptly
congratulate Quebec on its good management of this provincial
jurisdiction—the loans, grants and financial assistance sector—and
automatically give Quebec the amount it expected to spend
in that province through its millennium fund.
The underlying philosophy of the two programs is totally
different. The millennium scholarship fund is based on merit,
while the Quebec loans and grants program is based on the desire
of students to pursue their education. Quebec then provides
support to the students, based on their material and financial
needs.
The Canadian scholarships, on the other hand, are going to be
awarded according to merit, a pernicious notion contrary to the
philosophy of the Quebec government loan and bursary program. So
we will, obviously, end up with still more federal-provincial
quarrels, stirred up by the Canadian government's trampling over
the field of education because it is shaping the Canada of
tomorrow, which involves all of the people of Quebec.
The Canada of tomorrow will have Quebec as a region, no longer a
provincial government, and this will be the result of a decision
made here in the Langevin Block with no consultation,
particularly not with Quebec.
Speaking of debt, I would like to refer you to the words of
Martin Roy, student association president at UQTR, the
Université du Québec campus in my riding of Trois-Rivières. On
February 5, when he learned of the federal government's plans
relating to students in need, he said:
The needs are increasing every year. So far in 1997-98, UQTR's
financial aid office has already handed out close to $400,000 in
emergency funds to this clientele. They are increasingly in need
of financial assistance to meet their basic needs for survival,
not merit scholarships to finish their studies. At UQTR alone,
these merit scholarships total close to $1.8 million.
Those merit scholarships, moreover, come from the private sector.
Speaking of the private sector, a kind of near-privatization is
taking place. This $2.5 billion is being entrusted to a
foundation to be directed by none other than Yves Landry.
1205
Six months ago, on October 22, 1997, in a speech to our Chamber
of Commerce in Trois-Rivières, Yves Landry, who was not aware, I
think, of the federal government's plans, said, and I quote:
I do not understand Mr. Landry. He was either misinformed or
conned. Nothing is impossible with these people. He was either
misinformed or conned.
Given Mr. Landry's views, I cannot understand why he agreed to
serve as president of this foundation, which is completely at
cross-purposes, because we never asked the federal government to
look after this kind of scholarship.
In conclusion, I would like to read some passages from a
remarkable and extremely perceptive article by Lysiane Gagnon
that appeared on February 26. Mrs. Gagnon is known for views
that are not normally very favourable to us. The article is
entitled “A demagogic and provocative project”, and I quote:
Future generations will find no better illustration of the reign
of Jean Chrétien than these millennium scholarships: the perfect
example of a superficial and demagogic policy, of window dressing
that does nothing at all about the real problems and that may
even create a few new ones.
These scholarships will swallow up money that should have been
put towards improving the school system, and they will contribute
to the further deterioration of relations, if they can possible
get any worse, between Quebec City and Ottawa.
Further on, she says:
The decent thing—would have been to substantially increase
provincial transfer payments, now that Ottawa has put its fiscal
house in order. This would not have been a question of
generosity, but rather repayment of a blatant debt.
But there was the vanity of Jean Chrétien, who wants his name
associated with some sort of government handout, not to mention
the deep-seated need of any government for maximum visibility. A
direct gift to taxpayers brings in more votes than turning money
over to the provinces.
And further on:
If the Liberal Prime Minister was even remotely sincere in his
wish to stimulate education, he would have provided assistance to
schools, through the responsible governments. But obviously,
when it comes to votes, it is more productive to distribute
maple-leaf bearing cheques to post-secondary students—all the
more so because they, unlike primary school students, have the
right to vote.
The millennium scholarships will be grafted, God knows how, onto
an already existing grant system.
Either they will based on different criteria, and this will
thwart provincial policies, or they will be based on the same
criteria used for existing scholarships, and this will be a
patent case of duplication of services.
With that, I conclude my remarks. I would like to thank those
who helped with the pre-budget study in my riding and, on budget
night, with the study of the finance minister's budget.
Rapidly, they are: Michel Dupont, of the FTQ; Michel Angers, of
the CSN; Yves St-Pierre, of Action-Chômage; Jean-Louis Lavoie, of
the Mauricie St-Jean-Baptiste society; François Brunette, of the
AQDR; Martin Roy, of the UQTR students' association; and Brian
Barton, of the Trois-Rivières Solidarité populaire.
[English]
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the member from the Bloc Quebecois commented on a number of
issues but concentrated substantially on the jurisdictional role
in education and specifically on where the Canadian millennium
scholarship foundation fits in.
I believe the member was in error on one aspect which I would
like to lay out for him. As he knows, now that we have turned
the corner and balanced the budget, education was an important
theme. The Canadian opportunities strategy was the prime theme
in terms of directing funding toward the education of Canadians.
The member will also know that the Canadian millennium
scholarship fund is the centrepiece of the Canadian opportunities
strategy. It is designed to create new opportunities for
Canadians by expanding access, knowledge and skills for the jobs
they need and a higher standard of living for Canadians as a
whole.
The area with which he dealt and in which I believe he was in
error was the concept of eligibility for merit.
1210
The Canadian millennium scholarship is intended to remove
barriers for low and middle income Canadians. It is intended to
get the post-secondary education or advanced technical training
they need. The issues here are directed to low and middle
incomes and accessibility.
Beginning in the year 2000 the scholarships will be awarded to
over 100,000 full and part time students each year over 10 years,
with the initial endowment of $2.5 billion. This is the single
largest investment ever made by the federal government in support
of access to education. We are speaking conceptually of the
principle of access.
There is no question the provinces are responsible for the
delivery of the post-secondary system. When it comes down to who
was unemployed, youth unemployment and general poverty, it is the
federal government that cannot stand back and leave it up to the
provinces to be fully responsible. The federal government must
play a role in ensuring Canadians have accessibility to education
and an opportunity to have jobs.
If the member is so insistent that the funding is necessary for
the school system in Quebec, could he explain to the House why
the Quebec provincial government is spending millions of dollars
annually on embassies abroad?
[Translation]
Mr. Yves Rocheleau: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his
question. I remind him that, on page 14 of the budget speech,
reference is clearly made to criteria, and I quote:
—In particular, the Foundation will have the authority, subject
to mutually agreed needs, merit and mobility criteria—
So, when we say the fund will be based on merit, it is not a
figment of our imagination. The budget speech clearly alludes to
needs, merit and mobility criteria.
As for mobility, one wonders what it means for Quebeckers.
It may be a good thing for Canadians, but it is not necessarily
the case for Quebeckers.
We also believe that Canadians should get to know their country
better. Therefore, recipients of the Canada Millennium
Scholarships who want to travel to study outside their home town
or province will be provided help to do so.
I do not believe such opportunities are a priority for
Quebeckers.
Since I could not do so earlier, I remind the hon. member that
when the Minister of Human Resources Development says the federal
government makes an enormous contribution to loans and grants in
Quebec, he may not realize it but he should know that this
supposedly enormous federal contribution has been of the order of
15% to 20% since 1990.
This is no big deal, particularly because every time the
government gets involved in education, health and social
programs, it directly contravenes the letter and the spirit of
the Canadian Constitution, which it is supposed to respect. It is
like the rules of the House of Commons, which are trampled
whenever it suits certain people.
The same goes for the Canadian Constitution. When it does not
suit the needs of this Parliament, of this government, it is
simply flouted.
This is probably one of the main reasons why it is in the
interest of Quebeckers to leave this country and to deal with
Canada on an equal footing, so that the rules of the game can be
redefined, that we can be recognized as a people and that our
province is no longer the laughing stock of this country.
[English]
Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister
of Labour, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time
today with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister.
It gives me great pleasure to rise today in support of the 1998
federal budget. When we took office on October 25, 1993 our
government was faced with a very difficult decision. In 1993 our
government had three choices. The first was to continue spending
without any concern for the future as the past Conservative
government had done. We could have continued to add to the
deficit. This choice would have been irresponsible and our
country's future would have been at risk.
The second choice could have been to make deficit elimination
our number one goal. This was the Reform Party's position. The
most vulnerable in our society would have been abandoned.
The young, the elderly, the sick, they would all have been
abandoned by this approach. Instead, what choice did our
government make back in 1993? We chose the most difficult
option. Our choice was to reduce the deficit while preserving
social programs. This approach required sacrifice from all
Canadians.
1215
Where are we today, five years later? We are in this House
discussing a balanced budget for the first time in 30 years. It
is the first time since 1969 and 1970 that there is no deficit.
Not only are we committed to balancing the budget this year, it
will be balanced the next year and the next. It is the first
time in almost 50 years the budget will be balanced for three
consecutive times. I am delighted to be a part of a debate
highlighting our dramatic and historic balanced budget.
This budget of balance addresses the needs and concerns of
residents of Guelph—Wellington. Guelph—Wellington asked for a
zero deficit. They got it. Guelph—Wellington asked for tax
relief. They got it. Guelph—Wellington asked for increased
spending on education and health care and they got it.
By dedicating 80% of this budget spending to health care and
education, the government is addressing the priorities of all
Canadians. The first and largest increase was for health care.
This increase in funding acknowledges the many people in
Guelph—Wellington who have asked us to make health care a
priority.
When the Minister of Finance announced that assistance for
advanced research had been increased, he was speaking directly to
the University of Guelph and Guelph Conestoga College.
In this budget the minister increased the funding for the three
granting councils. It was an increase of more than $400 million
over three years.
Who in this House is going to stand up and say no to research
and development? I should hope no one. The Liberal government
recognizes the importance of research and development. These new
research and development resources will provide increased support
for the many students and faculty at the University of Guelph.
In a letter to the Minister of Finance, this is what Mordechai
Rozanski, the president of the University of Guelph, had to say
about this funding increase: “I am writing to applaud the
initiatives you announced in today's budget to reinvest public
funds. The University of Guelph is a research intensive
institution with a growing reputation world wide. We appreciate
the leadership shown by the federal government in today's budget
announcement”.
The 1998 budget provides $1.4 billion in tax relief to 14
million low and middle income Canadians. This is good news for
Guelph—Wellington and for Canada. Beginning July 1, 1998 the
amount of income that low income residents of my community can
receive on a tax-free basis will be increased by $500. This
means that residents of Guelph—Wellington will be among the
400,000 Canadians that will be taken off the tax rolls.
Beginning July 1, 1998, 13 million Canadian taxpayers will no
longer pay any federal surtax. This means that 83% of all
Canadians will pay no surtax whatsoever. This type of tax relief
is directed at those whose needs are the greatest. It is tax
relief for Guelph—Wellington's working parents with low incomes,
for students, for the disabled and for our local charities.
Again, how can anyone fight against it? How can anyone oppose
it?
The federal government has always recognized the importance of
volunteers. For this reason the 1998 federal budget announced
that the tax-free allowance for volunteer firefighters would be
increased from $500 to $1,000. Not only that but the tax-free
allowance has been extended to other emergency service
volunteers.
I ask this House, why is the government taking such progressive
action? The answer is simple.
1220
We know that volunteers are important. Volunteers are what make
many, many communities go round.
Our government has always recognized the importance of
self-employed business people. Starting in 1998, those who are
self-employed will be allowed to deduct premiums from
supplementary health care and dental costs against their business
income.
This measure addresses concerns residents of Guelph—Wellington
had with the inequity that allowed owner-managers to receive tax
exempt private coverage, but not the self-employed.
Since being chair of the Liberal economic development caucus a
year and a half ago, I have been working hard to combat the
underground economy: many, many meetings.
This budget ensures that mandatory subcontracting income is
reported. This measure has been included to ensure fairness and
equity in the tax system for all contractors. There are many
contractors in Guelph—Wellington who will benefit from this
measure.
With this budget, the Minister of Finance has made the job of
the opposition extremely difficult. How do you criticize a
balanced budget? How do you criticize tax relief that assists
90% of all Canadians? How do you criticize 80% budget spending
on health care and education? The answer is you don't.
The opposition should be congratulating the Minister of Finance
who took an out of control deficit, balanced it as promised and,
may I add, one year before the Reform had promised—the Reform
had promised much, much harsher measures—while protecting our
social programs. There is the key. We are protecting our social
programs. That would not have happened under the Reform's
proposition.
This budget stays the course. Canadians are now seeing the
results of all the hard work and sacrifices they have made since
October 1993. This budget takes a balanced approach that is
delivering real benefits for the residents of Guelph—Wellington
and all Canadians together are making a stronger country. We are
making a difference.
I hope every member in this House is willing to stand up and
applaud this budget. It is an important one and it is unique.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
thank the hon. member for Guelph—Wellington for her speech, but
I do want to take issue with some of the assertions she made.
I heard her say a minute ago that we should be congratulating
the finance minister for balancing the budget. Surely the member
knows it was the Canadian taxpayers who balanced the budget.
Revenue is 70% higher than when the government took power.
We have a situation now where the government has completely
reversed its stand from 1993. I point out in the 1993 election
campaign we had the Prime Minister, the then Leader of the
Opposition, saying zero deficits, zero jobs, zero hope.
What conversion on the road to Damascus did the Prime Minister
go through? All of a sudden, it sounds as though the member for
Guelph—Wellington is somehow suggesting that a balanced budget
was the government's idea all along. Quite the contrary. In
fact, they spoke against it in the election campaign.
I want to point out, leading to my question, that the hon.
member does not intentionally want to lead people to believe that
somehow they are going to get a tax break under this government.
I am certain that is not her intention.
I simply want to point out by way of a question that the member
is mistaken if she believes Canadians are going to be getting tax
relief under this government's proposals. I point out that if
the CPP increases that came into effect January 1 are included,
if the effective bracket creep that takes place every year is
included, amounting to just over a billion dollars in tax
increases that Canadians face, and this is all netted out, we
find that we in Canada will pay $2 billion more in taxes in
1998-99, $2.15 billion more in 1999-2000 and $2.8 billion more in
taxes in 2000-2001.
1225
Given those facts, will the member acknowledge that Canadians
will be facing higher taxes, not lower, because of this
government's actions?
Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased
that the hon. member for Medicine Hat started off his debate with
the fact that there are more revenues coming into Canada. That
is the reality. More Canadians are working now.
In 1993, and I am glad he pointed this out, when we took office
the unemployment rate was almost 12%. Now we are down to 8.6%
nationally. It is wonderful that we all recognize that there has
been an almost 4% decrease, and I thank the member for pointing
that out. That does mean that the economy and everything else
works better. We do have more money to support our social
programs.
When the hon. member talked about the finance minister and gave
him credit, it is true, all Canadians shared in this. My speech
did reflect that. Perhaps the member missed that part of it.
What I also want to say is we do also need to have leadership
shown at the federal level. We do need to have somebody
directing and saying that we are on a course. Clearly the
finance minister did. He has said right from the beginning that
we will balance the budget, we will have no deficit. Along with
that he also made a very clear statement that we must preserve
our social programs, that we must invest in health care, we must
invest in education, we must invest in research and development.
This budget does reflect those very values.
Ever since the Reform Party came to this House, it has said
consistently that the bottom line is to reduce taxes at all
costs. We are Canadian. Our vision in who we are is the fact
that we believe in social programs. We believe that health care
is important. We do not believe in a two-tier health care system
like the Reform Party.
We have clearly stood up and said no to the Reform Party's
agenda. We will balance the budget. We will and have reduced
the deficit.
Clearly it is a budget we all should be proud of.
Mr. Rey D. Pagtakhan (Parliamentary Secretary to Prime
Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate in
this budget debate.
Let me start with what the Prime Minister and the finance
minister have said. I quote: “The victory over the deficit is
due to the hard work and sacrifice of Canadians over the past
four years. Therefore, achieving a balanced budget is a win not
for the government but for Canadians. This is their victory”.
The only way to measure the significance of this achievement is
to look at where we started. First, when we came to office four
years ago our deficit stood at $42 billion, the highest in
Canada's history. At 6% we had the second highest deficit to GDP
ratio of any G-7 country. Second, the federal debt to GDP ratio
was almost 72% and rising. Third, the unemployment rate was
11.4% at the beginning of 1994. Last, our interest rates were
above rates in the United States. That is where we were in 1994.
That was our dismal starting point.
Where do we stand today? Today the deficit is dead, dead for
1997-98, 1998-99 and 1999 and the year 2000. This is the first
time Canada has had a balanced budget in almost 30 years. What a
monumental accomplishment. I believe that all Canadians, and I
hope that all the opposition parties, will applaud. Canada has
the only balanced budget of any G-7 nation.
That is not all. This shall be the first time in almost 50
years that the Canadian government will have three consecutive
balanced budgets. Last year the debt to GDP ratio fell, the
first meaningful decline in 20 years. It will fall again even
more. By the turn of the century, the debt to GDP ratio is
projected to fall just over 60%, the biggest percentage decline
of any G-7 nation again.
1230
What about jobs? More than a million new jobs have been created
since the government took office in 1993. Last year alone some
372,000 jobs were created. Employment has risen in every region
of our country during the past 18 months.
We admit that the unemployment rate is still high, but it has
dropped remarkably since 1994 and the downward trend definitely
is clear.
What about interest rates? For the first time ever both our
short and long term interest rates are below those in the United
States. That means that a home owner who gets a five year term
$100,000 mortgage will save more than $3,000 a year on mortgage
payments compared with three years ago. It means that a consumer
who gets a car loan of $18,000 will save $320 a year. It means a
saving of some $7,500 on a $25,000 small business loan over 10
years.
That is not all. According to a Statistics Canada report issued
a couple of weeks ago the economy grew by 3.8% in 1997. Inflation
is at its lowest level in three decades. Consumer confidence
rebounded in 1997. Business confidence achieved record levels in
the same year.
Let me quote what others have said. From the Globe and
Mail, a longstanding and acerbic critic of federal budgets,
Jeffrey Simpson, said: “This week's budget was the best in a
generation. It got priorities—right. It helped redefine the
proper role of government in a modern economy. It balanced
revenues and expenditures. It opted for prudent forecasts”.
It is a major accomplishment. In a four year period we have
gone from a $42 billion deficit to zero.
The CTV Ottawa bureau chief was poetic when he said Canada was
the Titanic that missed the iceberg.
I would like to read quotations from my province of Manitoba.
The headline in the Winnipeg Free Press read: “In the
black. Surpluses rolling in after 28 straight years of deficit
spending”.
There is more from the Free Press: “Door opens to tax
relief. Measures benefit 90% of taxpayers”.
I remind members of the opposition that means tax relief for
about 14 million Canadians.
The president of the Canadian Federation of Independent
Business said: “The biggest thing in there for small business was
the income tax reduction. Putting more money into people's hands
is good for the economy”.
Another headline in the Free Press read: “Students' debt
pains eased”. It will ease the crushing student debtloads. It
will increase interest relief and make post-secondary education
more accessible for Canadians.
Indeed praises for the budget come from a cross-section of
people across the country. They come from the Canadian Alliance
of Student Associations, from the Canadian Youth Foundation, from
the Association of Universities and Colleges. I hope that
opposition members will share the sentiments of those people who
are truly concerned and interested in the budget.
The chairman of the Association of Universities and Colleges,
Paul Davenport, said: “The millennium fund is going to help
students. So for student assistance, this is the best budget that
I've ever seen in my 20 years of university life. This is a
breakthrough budget for universities, a tremendous boost for
accessibility in Canada. This is going to help our young people
participate in the knowledge based economy”.
1235
Why do they praise the budget? Perhaps the best quotation has
come from a Toronto Star editorial: “This budget tells the
nation how the Liberals see Canada in the 21st century. Their
vision rests on the principle that every Canadian should have the
right to learn”. With those praises I really cannot understand
how opposition members can still find things that are not in the
budget. If they focus on what is not in the budget they will
miss the great things that are in the budget.
The research granting councils receive an extra $400 million.
This will certainly prevent our best scientists from leaving the
country. This is of benefit to our scientists and students and it
is good news for all Canadians, for the fruits of the labours of
our researchers will certainly spill over for the benefit of all
Canadians.
Another quote in the papers was by the social critics: “The
finance minister heads in the right direction”. Perhaps another
article I will quote from in the Free Press will sum up the
social vision of the Liberals and the social conscience that we
can see in this budget, in addition to transferring $1.5 billion
for health care and social transfer for the years far ahead. The
finance minister said there are those who seem to believe there
is nothing government can do and nothing government should do,
that we should just unleash the market and let loose the forces
of change and abandon those whom opportunity has passed by. That
view is not ours. A rising economic tide tide does not lift all
boats.
In conclusion, I am very glad to see the Prime Minister and the
finance minister working on a coherent tangent and vision for the
country. I have one last quote from the Winnipeg Free
Press editorial: “This budget is a milestone in Canadian
politics. It is the first time we have had a surplus in almost
28 years. It is the first time since 1970 that the federal
finance minister has been able to talk about long term choices,
not short term choices. This is the first time that we are able
to build a country instead of just holding it together”.
Mr. Rick Casson (Lethbridge, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, while I
have been listening to the people opposite congratulate
themselves and the Minister of Finance, calling this a historic
budget, there are a few things that are historic. We have
historic high taxes. We have historic high unemployment rates
for youth. We have a historic amount of families living on the
edge of poverty.
I remind the member that the people who are to be congratulated
here are the people of Canada, the long suffering taxpayers of
Canada who have balanced this budget. It was not the Minister of
Finance or that government, it was the people of Canada. I just
want to keep reminding him of that.
They keep bringing up the fact that we would, as an opposition,
destroy social programs. I would like this member to explain to
me how, by not addressing the debt and the fact that some 30 some
cents of every dollar that comes to Ottawa goes to service that
debt, the projections in the Liberal budget for the next two
years do not reduce that debt by $1. What is that doing to
social programs in this country? If that were reduced could we
not have more money for social programs? Could we not make it
truly a historic budget? I would like to hear his comments on
that.
Mr. Rey D. Pagtakhan: Mr. Speaker, I will answer the
question directly, but first let me state very clearly that the
member who asked the question was not listening at all. When he
said that instead of congratulating ourselves we should
congratulate the people of Canada, did I not begin my speech by
saying what the Prime Minister and Minister of Finance said, that
the victory over the deficit is due to the hard work and
sacrifice of Canadians over the past four years?
1240
To even start a preamble to the question without recognizing
what I have said in the beginning meant that this member was not
listening at all. If he does not listen how can he get the right
message to his question, whether in fact by reducing the debt we
would be able to spend more on social programs?
We have an amount of money and we have a need at this time for
health care and education. If we put all this money into the
payment of the debt where will be get the money for health care
and education? It is simple arithmetic.
[Translation]
Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand (Québec East, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my hon.
colleague is surprised that no one is listening. That is because
he is basically repeating what has been said by every other
Liberal speaker these past few days. It is as if they all had the
same person writing their speeches in praise of the budget. We
know full well that the budget did not meet all the expectations
of Canadians, especially in the area of education.
He went on and on about the great millennium scholarship
program. But let me quote Professor Trent, a professor of
political science at the University of Ottawa, who had this to
say about the Prime Minister's millennium scholarships:
[English]
“It amounts to the rape of federalism. It is also politically
egocentric, administratively inept and strategically stupid.
Moreover, it is unnecessary”.
[Translation]
This is what John Trent wrote. Professor Trent is right, because
everyone knows full well that, with this budget, the government
is once again trying to encroach some more on the provincial
jurisdiction over education, especially since Quebec has the most
sophisticated loans and grants program in Canada. Quebec students
have the smallest debt load, with an average student debt of
$11,000, compared to $25,000 in Ontario.
I ask my colleague this: Does he not agree that there is
duplication, that the federal government is once again
encroaching on the provincial jurisdiction over education?
[English]
Mr. Rey D. Pagtakhan: Mr. Speaker, to the observation
that the Liberals are repeating almost the same speech, we cannot
help it. The Liberals have the same message.
We have to keep repeating the message if the opposition refuses
to listen. We also know that not all expectations have been
achieved. The job of this government has not been concluded yet,
and that is why we have three phases in the plan for our budget.
The first phase has been completed. We are now in the second
phase and we will go to the third phase. If the member will wait
he will see all the beauty of our budget.
On his question about the millennium fund, I am glad to say that
Quebec has a loans program as well for its students. Does it
hurt for the students to get extra help from the millennium
scholarship fund? Let Mr. Trent tell his message to the students
and I would like the students to reply. The students will
criticize Mr. Trent.
Mr. Gerry Ritz (Battlefords—Lloydminster, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I will be splitting my time with my colleague from
Nanaimo—Cowichan.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister said in his
speech that this is a milestone. I am here to say my
constituents regard this more as a stone in your shoe than a
milestone budget. Millstone is another good word.
It should be a great honour to stand here today and deliver my
first speech on a federal budget. I am honoured but I have
serious reservations about the honour reflected in this budget.
My constituents and I certainly understand what budgets are all
about, making choices. Inevitably there will be people on both
sides of the debate. Some will be pleased and many will find
fault no matter what you do.
I would like to sympathize with the government on that point but
I cannot because what we see in this budget is that it has have
made no tough choices at all.
The Liberals claim their approach is balanced but I think the
more accurate term for them would be indecisive or unimaginative.
What we see here is a major disappointment, a huge flop and a
missed opportunity that Canadians will continue to pay for, for
decades.
1245
Canadians made it clear in our prebudget deliberations that the
tax burden on them and their economy was excessive. That tax
burden drags on job creation. We see that reflected in our
permanent persistently high unemployment figures.
Not only has the finance minister ignored the opportunity to
create real sustainable jobs, but these policies continue to
penalize the unemployed. Thousands find themselves ineligible
for benefits or have had their benefits cut to minimal levels
while the finance minister shovels billions of dollars into an EI
surplus fund. He announced nickel and dime cuts to premiums late
last year but continues to operate that EI fund as a cash cow
rather than the insurance program it was intended to be. I do
not find much honour in that.
The minister's colleagues will quickly point out that there is
money in the budget for job creation but experience with
government shows these programs are at best short term fixes with
excessive bureaucratic costs that still leave not thousands, not
tens of thousands, but hundreds of thousands of Canadians outside
the targeted groups.
This is the choice they make when they try to be the magic
bullet that aims itself at narrow agenda items instead of
creating broad policies that treat all Canadians equally and
treat the economy not as a revenue generator for government
excess but as the public trust that belongs to all its citizens
and their descendants.
We have seen programs across the political spectrum that reflect
the choices the Liberals have made to be always the party of the
special interest groups as opposed to being the party of the
whole Canadian community. We see them choose to base their
programs on race, language, gender or regionalism rather than on
creating equal opportunity for everybody.
A government must create an environment where people are not set
at each other's throats in a competition for rights and benefits
that excludes their neighbours. We on this side of the House
know there are localized or specific problems that must be
addressed by directing programs but too often these directions
are given by the special interest and lobby groups with agendas
that do not reflect the values held by the majority of Canadians.
The finance minister said that the time has passed when a
government could be all things to all people. By having so many
priorities it in fact has none. The finance minister was trying
to paint the budget as a point in the nation's history when we
would turn from the irresponsible, misdirected, wasteful spending
of the past and open a new chapter where every tax dollar would
be spent in such a way that it would always reflect focus and
balance. I am not saying these buzzwords are meaningless, but I
am saying that the actions of the government drain them of any
real meaning.
The finance minister rejected the notion that the treasury could
afford broad based tax relief. He rejected the advice of many
finance committee witnesses who said that decisive debt reduction
was not only prudent but would pay large dividends almost
immediately for all Canadians and their descendants. Instead he
made the choice to be many things to many people. In the process
he rejected the values of Canadians by ignoring the polls that
said people wanted debt reduction and tax relief most of all.
The minister left many important things out of the budget. There
is no mention of the crisis in agriculture or transportation on
the prairies, no mention of crisis in the east and west coast
fisheries, no mention of the tax burden carried by our small
business owners who are the real job creators in the economy. He
says to them that they will have to wait, but can they afford to
wait for this tax relief?
We can afford $600 million for an office of official languages.
We apparently cannot afford to attack the debt, but we can afford
to subsidize our own heritage to the tune of $440 million per
year. I am not saying that there are not worthy causes in there
somewhere but these expenditures are never questioned. Would
Canadians abandon their own culture or a second language if these
things were not subsidized? I think the evidence would point to
the contrary. The evidence suggests that the majority of
Canadians being compassionate and reasonable will do many things
on their own without being bribed with their own money.
What are the Liberals afraid of? The budget shows what they are
afraid of. They are afraid that if they give Canadians the
freedom to make their own choices they will choose to support
common values; they will strengthen their families, contribute to
their communities and naturally gather into a strong country with
a shared vision of our future.
By failing to make any courageous choices, the government has
not changed anything from the previous three decades of its
irresponsible predecessors. Canadians will continue to finance
massive programs. They will continue to spend 30 cents of every
dollar on nothing more than interest on the national debt. They
will continue to hear from Ottawa that bureaucrats know better
than they do how to run their own lives. I see nothing
honourable in that.
1250
Mrs. Karen Redman (Kitchener Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I would like to take this opportunity to ask the member opposite
for some clarification of his comments.
He talked about having an exclusionary budget and then he went
on to talk about regional initiatives. I see those two things as
cross purposes. I would like to hear his response as to the
lifting of the surtax and the benefit that is to all Canadians.
How could he possibly speak against an initiative such as that,
as well as the contingency fund which when it is not needed will
go toward paying down the debt? That is exactly what Canadians
asked for and this government delivered.
Mr. Gerry Ritz: Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for her
question. She is also a member of the finance committee so she
knows what we heard on the road from people talking about debt
and tax relief.
Many regional programs that we have seen governments direct are
always mistargeted. The cost of bureaucracy is excessively high
and never create the long term sustainable jobs we would like to
see.
She talks about a reduction in the surtax. We think that is
great. It should apply to everybody. It is great that they
started off and targeted a few people, but the complexity that
they have added into the system with this budget takes a tax
accountant and a Philadelphia lawyer to figure out the
idiosyncrasies of this system, which certainly is at cross
purposes to pandering to the poorest sectors of society that are
not able to afford an accountant to begin with.
In addition, that complexity flies in the face of the target
they are trying to make. When they take the huge CPP increases,
which certainly affect Canada's working poor, and balance them
off with the nickels and dimes we see tossed their way in the
budget, the end result over the three year program shows the
working poor as being worse off than they are now. I do not see
that as helping that sector of society.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
during the member's speech he said something that caught my
attention. It is quite unfortunate that he used these words, but
he said that the government was pandering in the budget to
special interests and was somehow providing special attention
based on race, language, gender and region rather than equal
opportunity.
I do not know what part of the millennium scholarship fund falls
into the special interest envelope he painted. I do not know
what part the tax relief to low and middle income Canadians falls
into the special interest envelope he painted. I do not see
where the caregiver tax credit for those who provide care in the
home to the elderly and the infirm falls into this special
interest envelope the member painted.
The member stated very clearly in the House that the budget
somehow pandered to special interests, in his words, specifically
on the basis of race, language, gender or region rather than
equal opportunity. I would like the member to stand in his place
this instant to tell the House one example where race, language,
gender or region is the basis of the budget.
Mr. Gerry Ritz: Mr. Speaker, we covered quite a bit in
that and I am sure I do not have time to cover it all.
One thing that pops to mind for race right off the bat is that a
short time ago the department of Indian and northern affairs
announced $350 million to address the abuse suffered by natives
at the hands of aboriginal schools years ago. Even the
aboriginal community was not consulted in that. I know the chief
of the grand council is having a terrible time trying to sell it
to his people. It is a day late and a dollar short in their
estimation. Maybe he should have consulted with them a little
more than he did.
The member talked about the millennium scholarship fund. In
reality that fund addresses 6% to 7% of students in Canada. What
do the other 93% or 94% of students do? Do they sit and wait?
This does not kick in until the year 2000. Students in our
universities are in a crisis now. They need some help today, not
two years down the road. That is a little too late.
He talked about the caregiver tax credit of $400. Fantastic. My
elderly inlaws are living with us and $400 do not even cover the
cost of putting in a bathroom rail so they can get in and out of
the tub. At an $11,500 income that tax credit disappears. It
just does not go far enough.
Mr. Reed Elley (Nanaimo—Cowichan, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it
is with a great deal of pleasure that I take part in my very
first budget debate since having been elected by the voters in
Nanaimo—Cowichan this past spring.
1255
One might have hoped that it would be under much better
circumstances. However, having seen what the finance minister
has brought down, I can only draw one conclusion. Canadian
taxpayers have been robbed of debt and tax relief and the
Liberals are going on a spending spree once again. It is a
shame. In fact the budget is not just a shame. It is a sham.
I could not believe my ears when the finance minister stood in
the House to declare that in effect the deficit battle had been
won by his government. I know they go to great pains to disclaim
that but that was said.
Nothing could have been further from the truth. It is incumbent
upon us as opposition members of Parliament to keep pointing out
that the government was able to hopefully balance that budget
only on the backs of working men and women. They are the ones
who have been paying an extra $33 billion in taxes since the
Liberal government took office in 1993.
What is the reward for the sacrifices Canadians have made? What
are taxpayers getting now that the books are supposedly balanced
and the government expects to start running surpluses? One short
word, nothing. What they should be getting is broad based
meaningful tax relief. They deserve nothing less. They are
telling me as their representative when I go back to the riding
that they are disappointed in the budget because they did not got
that relief.
In 1993 Canadian taxpayers paid $107 billion in income tax. This
year we will pay close to $140 billion in taxes to fund the big
red tax and spend Liberal machine. The chequebooks are out
again.
In order to be in a situation where the government could even
contemplate a balanced budget, let alone a surplus, program
spending for 1998-99 came in at about $103.5 billion. Just as
taxpayers have eliminated this deficit the government is
resorting to the same tax and spend policies that got us into
this mess in the first place.
This year the Liberals will spend $161 billion. In fiscal year
1999-2000 they will spend $167 billion. Finally, projected
spending for 2000-01 will be about $173 billion. Most of the
money being spent over 1997 levels is money that could go toward
paying down the debt or providing Canadians with real meaningful
tax relief.
The Liberal government does not seem to get it. Canadians are
being squeezed and they desperately need tax relief. Is it any
wonder that come tax time each year more and more of us feel like
we are taking one step forward and two back?
Take, for instance, my son in Calgary who has a wife, a little
girl and another on the way. As a construction worker at the low
end of the wage scale he has had trouble making ends meet even in
boom town Calgary which knows something about eliminating debts
and deficits and having the lowest taxes in Canada. Why? It is
mostly because the federal government still takes so much out of
his paycheque that he does not have anything left over.
The deficit battle is won on the backs of people like my son and
other Canadian taxpayers who have endured 33 tax increases by the
government since 1993. The budget holds hardly any hope for any
change.
The most insidious tax of them all is the bracket creep. It was
a present from the Tories and one which the Liberals have enjoyed
using against Canadians as well. By keeping the Tory bracket
creep tax, the Liberals have turned a blind eye to preprogrammed
tax increases. Why could they have not done something about
that?
Bracket creep, since the Liberals have taken office, has taken
an accumulative $13.4 billion in new and higher taxes out of our
pockets. That is not acceptable. Indexing for inflation in 1997
would have prevented an automatic $860 million personal income
tax increase. This represents an increase totalling $4.3 billion
over the next five years. This tax just keeps on taking and
taking out of the pockets of Canadians.
Statistics Canada reports that between 1989 and 1995 real after
tax family incomes fell by $3,461 from $41,084 to $37,623.
1300
Here is another graphic example of bracket creep. An individual
taxpayer earning $30,000 a year in 1993 whose income increases
just at the rate of inflation will end up paying $1,581 more in
federal income, CPP and EI taxes after he files his return this
year.
We have to see that there are social consequences to this budget
as well. By not providing tax relief and by failing to pay down
the debt, the government jeopardizes the social programs that we
have in this country. After adjusting for the government's
liquid assets the net public debt will stand at around $583
billion by the end of fiscal 1997-98.
This mountain of accumulated federal debt requires interest
payments. Interest payments on the Liberal and Tory mortgage
amount to $46 billion for this fiscal year. Canadian taxpayers
will pay approximately the same next year to service the debt.
Think in terms of social spending what $46 billion represents.
It represents the entire annual budget for the four western
provinces. It represents the entire annual budgets of Quebec,
P.E.I. and Newfoundland. It represents enough to pay for all
Canadian hospitals, physicians and drug costs for an entire year.
We have to do something about the interest payments on this
debt. It represents enough to provide every poor child in Canada
with a $30,000 a year endowment. Do you see how important this
is? As I said at the outset, this budget is both a shame and a
sham because it fails Canadians.
Until we pay down the debt, we cannot free up that money which
is being used to pay interest on the $583 billion debt. Surely
the lost opportunity that these interest payments represent
should be reason enough to commit 50% of any surplus to debt
reduction.
I urge my colleagues across the way to think of what this means
to Canadian taxpayers. Those of us over here are intent on
finding out what our constituents feel about this. I asked for
people to write to me and let me know how they would spend the
surplus, if there ever was a surplus in this country. I would
like to read a letter.
Dear Sir:
I would like to give you some input from some taxpayers in your
riding on the issue of what to do with any government surplus (if
in fact one ever occurs). In short, think deficit reduction. Yes
we feel heavily taxed and yes we feel some services have been cut
a little too far and our take home pay buys less than it used to,
but the $600 billion national debt is a disgrace and a millstone
around the necks of all Canadians. It will be even worse for
future generations if we don't face reality and deal with this
debt.
That is from Bruce and Deborah Maher in my riding.
Public debt charges will eat up 33 cents of every revenue dollar
in the current fiscal year or 69 cents out of every personal
income tax paid by Canadians.
In 1997 the average Canadian taxpayer will pay about $3,285 a
year in taxes just to pay interest on the debt. Large debt
burdens also force interest rates higher. This increases the
cost of mortgages, automobile loans and household items like
washing machines and refrigerators, and carrying credit card
balances.
Debt reduction frees up a fiscal dividend for reinvestment in
the Canadian economy. This can be done in the form of
strengthened social programs, lower taxes or a combination of
both.
Cutting the debt in half would put about $1,600 back into the
pockets of every average taxpayer in this country. Or the
government could even give a mix of tax relief. Anything would
be better than what we have.
The government could provide an 8% reduction in personal income
taxes, or something it promised a long time ago, the total
elimination of the GST. The Liberals could finally honour their
1993 election promise to scrap that hated tax. This could only
be done if the Liberals reduced the accumulated federal debt by
half. Given the most recent offering by the Prime Minister, I do
not think this is likely to occur at any given time.
Sadly this budget does nothing to help ordinary taxpaying
Canadians. If anything it impoverishes them further by
increasing the tax burden. If that fact is not now readily
apparent to taxpayers, when we all sit down and start filing our
income tax in the next month or so, then reality will hit us once
again.
I cannot support this budget.
1305
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
want to deal with a couple of the errors, or misconceptions
maybe, that the member has indicated in his speech.
First of all he left the impression that since the tax revenue
of the government is going to increase from $107 billion to $140
billion that somehow, and members opposite use the phrase over
and over again, this is being done on the backs of Canadians. The
hon. member is using a little bit of smoke and mirrors.
There are a million more people working in Canada than there
were in the prior year or since the mandate of this government
commenced. That means there are more taxpayers working, more
taxpayers paying their taxes and there is more revenue for the
government. It is absolutely erroneous to suggest that somehow
this is a greater tax burden on the individual Canadian.
The member also talks a lot about bracket creep. He had a lot of
fluff in there about all the editorial commentary. The member
should probably well know, and I think Canadians should well know
that this bracket creep issue has to do with the indexation of
the basic personal amount as an example, which is $6,456 and an
inflation rate exceeding 3%. Given what the inflation rate was
for instance last year and taking the federal rate, what we are
talking about is approximately $12.46 for an ordinary taxpayer in
terms of the federal coffers.
The member goes on and on about 33 tax increases since this
government took its mandate. We are talking about small items. We
are not talking about the substantive items.
I want to ask him a question about tax relief. Tax relief in the
amount of $7 billion was provided to Canadians in this budget. It
included items like increasing the provisions under the basic
personal amount. It included a number of measures, but it
accumulated to some $7 billion. That is included in the
determination of a balanced budget. The member may suggest that
the tax relief is nominal, but it was $7 billion.
If the member is going to make the argument, can he stand up and
explain to the House exactly how or what he is going to change in
this budget? What item is he going to change specifically to
provide which tax benefit? I want him to say exactly what tax
benefit he is going to provide to Canadians. How much is it
going to cost? And is he still going to be able to deliver the
balanced budget that Canadians have asked for?
Mr. Reed Elley: Mr. Speaker, the most important person to
consult in this whole thing is the Canadian taxpayer.
I went back to my riding last week and held town hall meetings
all across my riding. I sat down with Canadian taxpayers to whom
I give a lot of credit and who have the intelligence to look at
this budget and say whether it is really helping them. All I can
say in answer to the member's question is that those people have
told me that the ordinary average Canadian on the whole feels
they are not getting enough tax relief out of this budget. For 27
years they have been paying for these deficit budgets by Liberal
and Tory governments and they feel it is time that the government
finally rewarded them.
Mr. Paul Szabo: How much?
Mr. Reed Elley: I cannot tell the hon. member how much,
but I can say that they felt that it would certainly have been a
whole lot more if this government had been listening to
Canadians.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
just heard the Liberal member comment on the tiny impact of
bracket creep. Actually it is about over $1 billion a year that
it takes from taxpayers' pockets. But I point out to my friend
that the government's tax reduction strategy next year will only
be $880 million. In other words, bracket creep completely
eliminates the tax relief the government is so proud of.
Will my friend from Nanaimo—Cowichan comment on this? Will he
also comment on the huge impact that CPP tax increases will have
on the pocketbooks of average Canadian taxpayers?
Mr. Reed Elley: Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague has hit
the nail right on the head. This government is taking money out
of Canadian taxpayers' pockets, whether it is giving minimal tax
relief or not. It is taking money out through things like the
CPP.
I suspect this government will find other more innovative ways to
take more money out of the pockets of Canadian taxpayers through
user fees. Things which we used to get basically free from
government we will now be charged for. The government will find
other ways to do this so it can continue on its big spending
spree.
1310
How could the government do it otherwise? It would not be able
to do it. It has to have more money coming in to pay for the
money that is going out. It will do it somehow.
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Miramichi.
I welcome the opportunity to participate in today's budget
debate and to congratulate the Prime Minister and the Minister of
Finance for leading us and all Canadians into the era of balanced
budgets.
To me it is not the applause of economists and accountants that
makes our first balanced budget so historic. It is the fact that
our fiscal progress allows us to begin an equally crucial journey
and that is to relieve the heavy tax burden which Canadians must
shoulder. The residents of Waterloo—Wellington are grateful for
the very steady course which has been taken by the government.
I am also very proud of the way the budget has launched this
journey with reasonable prudent steps. The increase in the basic
exemption and the elimination of the general surtax for Canadians
earning under $50,000 a year will benefit 14 million citizens.
They also ensure that our hard won fiscal progress is not put at
jeopardy.
Of course we have already heard the squawks and the screeching
that our tax initiatives should have gone further. As opposition
parties it is always easy to advocate broader based tax relief,
but this government has come too far in the fiscal battle to let
that type of political grandstanding jeopardize the progress we
have made to date and for which Canadians have worked so hard.
The challenge we must continue to meet and master is clear. We
can only begin moving to even larger tax cuts when the attack on
the fiscal mess left by the previous governments is truly over.
That means not just continuing to run balanced budgets but also
ensuring that the debt itself is set on a real downward course.
I am confident that most Canadians know that wider tax relief
today would have been paid for in one of two ways: either by
pushing us back into a deficit, or by cutting back on our
investments in vital social programs. The increased funding we
are providing to the provinces under the Canada health and social
transfer as an example, or our funding for the Canadian
opportunities strategy as another example would have been cut.
What about that funding, especially the Canada millennium
scholarship fund? I know it is tempting for critics to look at
this $2.5 billion endowment and suggest that it might better go
toward augmenting our $1.6 billion personal revenue tax relief
for low and middle income people. However, the fact is that the
scholarship fund is a one time investment. Its payouts will be
spread across the 10 years in which we will be providing the
scholarships. The general tax relief announced by the minister
is much more permanent.
As a result of the two measures, the increase in the basic
exemption and the elimination of the surtax, single people
earning $30,000 a year will see their tax burden reduced by 3%.
For single people earning $50,000 a year, they will see a 2.4%
reduction. For families this is an important measure. Taxes will
fall by 3.3% at $50,000. This means that a family with an income
of $30,000 will receive a 31% reduction in taxes, with its total
federal income taxes falling to about $300 or 1% of income.
Let us look at the saving to the total number of taxpayers. The
combination of the increase in the basic exemption and the
elimination of the general surtax will deliver $880 million in
savings in the first year. As the economy and incomes grow, that
saving will increase to almost $1.7 billion by the year 2000-01.
In fact in over just three years the bottom line saving to
taxpayers will exceed $4 billion. It will continue to grow year
after year.
That is the fair and honest comparison which critics should
make: our scholarship endowment with its one time $2.5 billion
cost, equal to $250 million a year; and our tax relief, saving
consumers $1.7 billion year after year.
To me this reflects the fair and balanced strategy which has
become our hallmark since coming to office. We are not the party
which tries to play Canadians off against each other.
Our philosophy centres on acting where the need is greatest and
where the government can do the most good. Surely taxpayers and
students meet those criteria.
1315
Let me emphasize, as the minister did in his budget speech, that
this government's goal continues to be lower taxes and lower
taxes even further. That is a pledge that Canadians can trust as
our track record clearly shows and makes clear.
Remember, from our first days in office we have understood the
economy and the social problems that are caused as a result of
Canada's high taxation levels. That is why we did not increase
personal taxes in any of our budgets.
You would probably have to go back a long time to find any
comparable period when personal tax rates stayed unchanged, much
less dropped as with this budget.
From the start, where we could afford it and where it could do
the most good, we have implemented targeted tax cuts. These are
cuts that this budget also builds on.
For example, it is our government that in 1998 lowered the
employment insurance premium rate for employees from $2.70 per
$100 of insurable earnings from the previous $2.90 rate. For
workers, this means paying up to $78 less in premiums in 1998
than in 1997. For employers, it means paying up to $109 less per
employee.
In fact, the 1998 premium rate reduction is the second largest
drop in EI premiums since the 1970s. It will reduce premiums
paid by employers and employees by an estimated $1.4 billion.
It was our government that in the 1997 budget proposed a
two-step enrichment for the current $5.1 billion child tax
benefit to create a new $6 billion Canada child tax benefit by
July 1998.
Overall, more than 1.4 million Canadian families with 2.5
million children will see an increase in federal child benefit
payments as of this July.
Also, it was this government that took concrete actions through
the tax system to assist Canadians with disabilities. For
example, a list of expenses eligible for the medical expense tax
credit has been significantly broadened and the customs tariff
amended to provide duty free entry for all goods designed to use
for persons with disabilities.
It was this government that acted through the tax system to
enhance initiatives for charitable giving. These are already
before this House in Bill C-28.
Once passed, this legislation will reduce the income inclusion
rate on capital gains arising from charitable donations from 75%
to 37.5%. This puts Canadian charities on an equal footing with
those in the United States.
Let me highlight just a few more tax reduction measures we have
implemented over the last four years to help Canadians and
sectors most at risk or in need.
We have eliminated the seven-year limit on unused RRSP room so
that Canadians who face short term economic problems do not have
to feel that their retirement saving is in jeopardy.
We have raised the annual limit on the transfer of the tuition
fee and education amounts to those who support students from
$4,000 to $5,000. We have increased the annual limit on
contributions to registered education savings plans from $1,500
to $2,000 and the lifetime limit from $31,500 to $42,000. Through
Bill C-28, we are increasing the annual limit another $2,000.
We have broadened the eligibility for the child care expense
deduction to assist parents who undertake education or
retraining. We allowed most charitable and public organizations
to raise funds without collecting and remitting GST on sales. We
have provided a 100% GST rebate on books purchased by public
libraries, educational institutions and other specific bodies.
We still have no illusions that these measures are more than
very small steps in addressing a very large problem but they are
real steps, steps designed to do the most good with the resources
we have available. Most important, most of them are steps that
reflect our national values, providing mutual support for
Canadians in need or who face real disadvantage.
That is why our 1998 budget keeps our red book II promise to
further enrich the Canada child tax benefit. This enrichment
will be made in two steps, an increase of $425 million annually
beginning in July 1999 and a second increase of $425 million
annually commencing in July 2000.
Next, as the Minister of Finance told us to help working
Canadians with children, the 1998 budget proposes to increase the
limit on the child care expense deduction.
1320
Beginning in 1998, the limits for the child care expense
deduction will increase from $5,000 to $7,000 for children under
age seven and from $3,000 to $4,000 for children between the ages
of seven and sixteen. This measure will benefit some 65,000
Canadian families with children.
We have also been a government that recognizes the challenge of
the aging population. We have had to address this in connection
with the Canada pension plan. We will be addressing it further
with the seniors benefit, but this budget takes it a further
step.
There are other tax measures in this budget that I could
highlight and other examples of actions in previous budgets that
we can be proud of but I think my point is clear. Our
performance on behalf of the average taxpayer is concrete,
credible and consistent. I look forward to our future budgets as
our fiscal strength expands, when this government will further
broaden and deepen the tax relief that Canadians not only deserve
but also desire.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, my
friend across the way just put the best possible face on the
budget, which I had expected. However, in fairness, the official
opposition has to put things in perspective here.
My friend did not mention that Canadians face the highest taxes
in the G-7 today, 56% higher than the G-7 average. He did not
mention that in the last 15 years, between 1980 and 1995, we saw
taxes in this country increase relative to GDP by 29% while they
went down in the U.S., Japan, the U.K. and Germany. Our taxes
have gone absolutely through the roof.
What my friend did not point out is that it is people at the low
end of the income scale who pay the highest price because of this
huge rise in taxes.
My question to my friend across the way is, given that the
government has introduced targeted tax relief but also introduced
broad based tax increases with the net effect of raising taxes by
close to $7 billion over the next three years, notwithstanding
its tiny $7 billion in tax relief, the net effect is still a $7
billion increase, how does that help Canadians and in particular
how does it help low income Canadians?
Mr. Lynn Myers: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the hon. member
to look at the budget and read it very carefully so that he
understands fully that low and middle income Canadians have in
fact benefited from the kind of progress that we as a government
are making. The member should consider the evidence. We have
some of the lowest interest rates in historical perspective. We
have generated an incredible amount of activity which has created
the kind of climate that Canadians not only want but deserve.
The member makes reference to the G-7. We are leading the G-7
in terms of the kind of economic activity that we are doing. We
have selectively noted that there will be tax reductions for low
and middle income Canadians which is a good move and one that is
very much deserved. We will see more of that. As time
progresses there will be an opportunity for those kinds of
initiatives to kick in. I look forward to that because it is
important that we as a government move on that front.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
congratulate the member on his speech concerning this very
historic budget.
One of the important elements of this budget, after we consider
the impact of balancing it, is the theme of education as it
relates to preparing our youth for their place in the workforce
as they move through their lives.
The member well knows that under the Canadian opportunities
strategy, the Canadian millennium scholarship foundation is the
centrepiece. In addition to that, the tax relief on interest
payments on student loans, the tax free RRSP withdrawals for
lifelong learning and an education credit and child care expense
deduction for part time students are certainly some of the
others.
I thought I would just ask the member if he would like to
comment a little bit on the issue of education, maybe from the
perspective of his own riding, concerning the reception that
Canadians have been giving to the investment that we are making
in our youth.
Mr. Lynn Myers: Mr. Speaker, as a former educator, I can
say that I was absolutely elated in terms of the kinds of
initiatives that we see for our young people especially, for our
youth who deservedly need that kind of assistance.
1325
The reception not only in my riding but in Ontario and across
Canada has been overwhelming in terms of the kind of reception
people, and especially our young people, have given. They know
full well this was an important historic budget that will sustain
them into the year 2000 and the 21st century. It is very
important that we give our young people those all important first
chances and opportunities to enable them to carve out the kind of
thing they require in terms of their lives and futures. I am
proud to be part of a government that has been able to do that.
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I was
moved by the member's comments about the benefit this budget
provides for young people. My wife and I have raised four young
people. My son Spencer has worked for a low paying income that
most young people are forced into or it may be just a matter of
growing up. He made $14,613.32 in the last fiscal year. He paid
$393.16 in UI, $1,572.45 in income tax and $296.83 in Canada
pension plan for a total of $2,262.44.
Could my hon. friend across the way tell me if this is being
fair to the young people of this country?
Mr. Lynn Myers: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for
his question. This government has created the kind of climate
for the economy that will enable all our young people to excel
and proceed into their futures with not only confidence but also
knowing full well they will have an opportunity we used to take
for granted and now they should too.
We have been able to do that in a way that is commensurate with
the kinds of dreams young people have. It is important that we
proceed accordingly and carve out that kind of opportunity for
all Canadians and especially our young people.
Mr. Charles Hubbard (Miramichi, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is
certainly a privilege today to speak on behalf of all the good
citizens of Miramichi riding. I congratulate the Minister of
Finance and our Prime Minister for a budget that finally
addresses the terrible problem of the annual deficit in Canada.
As I listened to the members opposite, I heard concerns being
expressed that it was not the Minister of Finance but rather the
Canadian people who balanced this budget. I assure them that it
was the Canadian people who balanced this budget, but the
Canadian people did this after receiving strong leadership,
direction and a commitment to make sure the finances of this
country were brought under control.
Fifty-two months ago when our party took control of the
government, we were faced with a terrible situation in terms of
our country almost being on the verge of bankruptcy. The annual
deficits were in the vicinity of $40 billion to $50 billion each
year. The international bankers were almost on our doorsteps.
It is interesting to note that members opposite do not seem to
recognize the necessity of saying to our Minister of Finance that
he has done a very good job in bringing our deficit under
control.
In 1993-94 the government recognized that a comprehensive
strategy was needed in order that our government and our country
could be brought back to a fresh new direction. It had to bring
confidence back into our economy. It had to bring forward
programs that would eliminate waste, that would develop new
markets, that would attract new investment and above all that
would restore some hope and confidence for our Canadian people.
This budget in 1998 is a continuation of the plan that was set
forward in 1994. On February 24, for the first time in 30 years,
the Minister of Finance brought forward a budget that was
balanced in terms of our Canadian nation. That is an outstanding
accomplishment.
1330
All Canadians can take pride in the fact that we now have
brought our economy and our government spending under control.
We are facing an opportunity now to enter the 21st century with a
sound economic and fiscal approach to our government and to our
country.
This ever improving financial situation for Canada has helped
drive down interest rates. Those wanting to invest in our
country today have some of the best interest rates that they have
had in the last 30 years.
We have heard today about employment and unemployment. Being
from the Miramichi I have to be continually concerned with the
need for our people to seek employment. We have had difficulties
in the Miramichi. In 1996 we saw the closure of base Chatham. We
saw a lot of people lose their jobs. That along with the
difficulties that we have in Atlantic Canada was a major concern
for us and the province of New Brunswick.
I am happy to report today on the outcome. Great efforts have
been put forward by our former premier Frank McKenna, by members
of the legislative assembly of the province of New Brunswick and
by our community leaders in the Miramichi. All of us have worked
together to enhance our economy and to provide more job
opportunities for our people.
The member opposite alluded to youth. In our country we have to
be continuously concerned that our youth are provided with
opportunities where they can obtain successful and rewarding
employment.
In the last few years we have seen the unemployment rate in this
country drop from 11.2% to approximately 9%. This has certainly
been an achievement. Our government must work diligently to make
sure that unacceptable levels of unemployment especially among
young Canadians remains a very great concern.
Recently we announced the internship program. Some 3,000 people
will be offered an opportunity to take part in internship with
governments and private industry.
We also see in this budget that employers who hire young people
between the ages of 18 and 24 will be given an employment
insurance benefit holiday for the youth they hire in the years
1999 and 2000. Every member of Parliament has to make sure that
our young people, our most enthusiastic workers in many cases,
are given opportunities to get gainful employment.
We talked about the great national debt which approaches some
$600 billion, a legacy of overspending particularly by the
governments before us. This debt is affecting the lives of all
Canadians. Some 28.3 cents of every tax dollar are committed
toward paying the interest on that debt. All of us on all sides
of the House must make sure that we continually approach the
concept that reducing that debt will be in the best interests of
all Canadians.
The debt has to have a rigorous program to make sure that it is
maintained and kept under control and above all, eventually
brought down to a minimum. We hear people casting stones about
the debt. All Canadians have some degree of debt, whether it be
a mortgage, a car loan or some personal loan. As Canadians, even
though we have to look at the debt in different ways, we must
assume that the debt generally has been used to pay for some
worthwhile assets that our country now has.
We find that more than 14 million Canadians will only get a
minor break in tax relief, but it is a start. It is a beginning.
We have the $500 increase in the amount of dollars people can
claim on a non-taxable basis. This will benefit most Canadians,
especially those in the lower and middle income groups.
We also have to recognize that money is being put into the child
tax benefit program by which Canadians of lower incomes, below
$20,921, can receive $1,625 for the first child and $1,425 for
each additional one.
I am also happy to see the great attention being placed on
education in this budget. We have certain breaks now for those
who are having difficulty with their student loans.
We have the concept of Canadians being able to invest in their
children's education. The Canada education savings grant program
will mean the government too will contribute toward the annual
amount that each taxpayer can contribute into an RESP.
1335
I see my time is running out and I have to shorten my speech.
Overall I would say that most young people in this country, most
university students, most of our youth see this budget as a very
favourable beginning.
University programs have been good. We also see the concept of
money being offered in terms of tax breaks to those who volunteer
as firefighters and members of local fire departments.
In general even though we may hear criticisms from the other
side of the floor, I think this is only part of our governmental
process. We on this side of course are doing our best to make
sure that the programs are well explained. On the other side,
and I see some members nodding, it is their duty to point out
what is difficult in the budget.
I would like to see more positive solutions instead of negative
criticisms which really add very little to our debate. Hopefully
before the vote is held tonight, we will hear some more positive
remarks from those members who are sitting opposite.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
want to thank my friend opposite for his speech. I want to point
to a statement he made when he praised the finance minister for
his leadership, as he phrased it, in battling the deficit.
I want to point out to my friend that in 1995 when the finance
minister brought in his budget he did make a commitment to reduce
spending by $5 for every dollar in new revenue that he brought
in. Imagine the surprise of Canadians when three years later they
found out what actually happened was that the government brought
in $2.10 in new revenue for every dollar it cut. In fact the
government actually reversed completely the promise it made in
1995.
I think that is a betrayal. I think Canadians believe in a
small limited government, a government that lives within its
means and understands its limitations, understands that it can
only do a certain amount of things.
It was taxpayers through revenues who really beat this deficit
down. If we look at the numbers, we will find that 69.1% of the
improvement in the government's fiscal position was due to new
revenues. A very, very minor portion, about .6% of the
improvement in the government's fiscal position was due to
departmental spending cuts and the rest was cuts in transfers to
the provinces.
Would my friend agree that the rewards of the surplus should be
distributed to people on the basis of that formula? In other
words, two-thirds of the surplus should go to taxpayers, .6% back
to bureaucrats for increases in government spending and the
remainder back to the provinces to fix the health care and higher
education that this government helped destroy.
Mr. Charles Hubbard: Mr. Speaker, it is always good to
hear my hon. friend because I think he has almost as many facts
as the computer that sits near my desk and we have to judge them
accordingly.
We have to recognize that some 700,000 or more new jobs have
been created and that we have a great number of new taxpayers.
That is what this government is all about. We are out there
trying to get more Canadians employed. I mentioned that some 9%
today are unemployed. I would like to see that figure at 5%.
With that, our revenues would increase accordingly. We would be
able to restore more people working in terms of our economy,
building a greater confidence in their ability to invest and to
purchase goods. We would have a tremendous economy. The hope is
there as we approach the 21st century.
Mr. Dick Proctor (Palliser, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
member opposite indicated unacceptable levels of unemployment. If
I heard him correctly, he used the figure of 11.2% as being
unacceptable. It is down to about 9%. I think it might be at
8.9%.
I am wondering whether he could shed some insight into why this
government is so reluctant to set some targets for unemployment
levels. The government has done it on reducing the deficit. It
did it over a period of years.
1340
I am wondering why there is such reticence on the government
side to set realistic targets to reduce unemployment,
particularly among young people because their level is nowhere
near the 11% or the 9%. It is in the high teens if they are
lucky. Perhaps the member opposite could answer that question.
Mr. Charles Hubbard: Mr. Speaker, certainly the levels of
unemployment among our youth are of great concern, but in terms
of our goals, I think all of us should aim toward seeing that
everybody who wants to work is able to get a job. We cannot
really set 5%, 4% or whatever the structural amount might be. We
eventually have to provide an opportunity to every Canadian who
wants to participate in our economy to have work.
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
have listened for the most part to the member's presentation.
Job creation is the key to the thinking of most Canadians that
would satisfy them in earning and contributing to this big
country of ours and feeling productive. Of course the jobs are
not out there. Even with the rates of unemployment that we now
have and this spurred economy, many people are concerned that
they will still remain unemployed or underemployed.
We have a projected debt that will remain at $583 billion. This
debt will cost every Canadian family $6,000 a year. How can the
Liberal government justify its position of not reducing that debt
and tax burden on Canadian families and continuing on its route
of spending the surplus?
Mr. Charles Hubbard: Mr. Speaker, there is an old saying
in a book on statistics, which I think was written by Lord
Ashley, that figures lie and liars figure. Some 14 million
Canadian families are being offered some degree of tax relief. To
try to assume that each Canadian family has $6,000 of debt on
average may be correct, but it is really not a fact. Hopefully,
as big corporations such as our banks and other groups improve
and contribute more to our economy we will see that overall
general debt being reduced.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
am pleased to have the opportunity to speak to the most historic
budget in Canada in almost 30 years.
After the budget was presented all members of Parliament had the
opportunity to go back to their constituencies and hold town hall
meetings and to have consultations with their constituents
concerning this historic budget.
When I was back in my own riding of Mississauga South I received
a few phone calls and a number of letters. I spent time walking
through the neighbourhoods and talking to businessmen. The one
thing that became very clear was that there was a great pride in
the fact that we as a country had managed to put our financial
house in order and balance the budget. That was the clear
message I received in my riding.
1345
There is no question that Canadians were asked to step up and do
their share to deal with a $42 billion deficit. They were asked
to bear some of the hardship. Members across the House have
raised a number of points. I think all Canadians understand that
if we did not get our fiscal house in order nothing could be done
in terms of backfilling areas of health care, education and
social programs. We had to get the fiscal position under
control. We had to balance the budget.
I would like to indicate that I will be splitting my time with
the Minister of Industry.
The clearest indication of what the budget has done is the
signal international financial markets gave to Canada in terms of
their assessment of the job we had done in managing the fiscal
situation of this country.
For ordinary Canadians the clearest indication that was
happening had to do with interest rates in Canada which dropped
to the lowest levels in some 30 years. There was a point at
which short term rates were some 4% lower than they were in the
United States.
An environment was created in Canada which led to massive
initiatives to stimulate job creation in Canada. It was not by
the government. The government does not create jobs. In fact as
part of getting the fiscal situation in order there was
significant downsizing of the federal public service. Spending
of the government had to decline significantly. There were
people who had to bear that pressure and that burden. It was
very tough for many Canadians and many public servants.
The fact that interest rates came down represents one of the
single largest tax breaks to Canadians that they have seen in a
long time. It means that Canadians now have the opportunity
provided by lower interest rates. Since house prices and
mortgage interest on houses started to go down more Canadians
were able to buy houses.
Let us look at the figures, at housing starts, at the number of
families that finally have an opportunity to buy houses, and at
the sale of cars. The automobile sector represents 30% of the
economy in my province of Ontario. Automobiles sales went up.
In addition to the issue of balancing a budget and turning that
corner, this is the first budget of this new mandate. This is
not the only budget. There are things yet to do. There are
commitments to be made.
Certainly we have in the budget an emphasis on education, tax
relief and debt relief. The stage has now been set for further
changes to be made. In the absence of an economic downturn, I am
absolutely sure we will see continued benefits for Canadians both
in terms of tax relief and social programs as well as the
important reduction of Canada's debt.
I will conclude my comments because I am sure members will have
some questions.
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I have a
quick question.
My friend stated that governments did not create jobs. While I
say that is true to a point, could my hon. friend tell us who
pays doctors, nurses, teachers, members of the RCMP, people who
work in our trade offices overseas, our armed forces and our
parole officers?
Canadians and the Minister of Health are calling for more home
care and for more opportunities in hospitals. Will my hon.
friend tell me who pays for these very essential people in
society?
Mr. Paul Szabo: Mr. Speaker, I do not exactly understand
the point of the member's question, but I would say that the
remuneration of doctors comes from the provinces. The
remuneration of the nurses comes from the provinces.
1350
The member wants to debate whether we are talking about another
level of government or this level of government. I am sorry, but
we are playing with semantics.
The key thing for Canadians to understand is the solution the
NDP has to all of our problems is to throw money at them: hire
everybody and pay for everything. That is not the way to manage
an economy in a fiscally responsible manner.
NDPers have their way. I understand where they are in the
political spectrum. I understand where they are in the House.
That is why the Liberal Party is the governing party. It has
demonstrated time and time again that proper fiscal management
translates into a balanced budget, tax relief and debt reduction
for which Canadians asked. We promised those things and we
delivered.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
thank my hon. friend for his speech and I have a question for
him.
My friend is a defender of families. He has written a book
about families. He advocates that all families be treated fairly
in the taxation system.
I wonder how he would respond to the government's measure to
increase deductibility for child care expenses only for those
families who take their children to day care. The government did
absolutely nothing for all those families who choose to look
after their children at home. How does the member respond to
that?
Mr. Paul Szabo: Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for
plugging my book. It is called Strong Families Make a Strong
Country.
I understand the thrust of his question. In the budget there is
an increase in the child care expense deduction from $5,000 to
$7,000 and from $3,000 to $5,000 for older children. Indeed that
benefits Canadian parents who choose to have others care for
their children while they go to work, earn income and pay taxes.
As I said earlier, this is the first budget of the mandate. We
brought in the caregiver tax credit. I put forward a motion to
implement a caregiver tax credit for those who provide care in
the home to preschool children, the chronically ill, the aged or
the disabled.
We have delivered on the disabled. We have delivered on the
chronically ill, the infirm and the aged with regard to the
caregiver tax credit. We now have an opportunity to look at
providing some sort of caregiver tax credit to families who
choose to provide direct parental care to their children.
I still support that. I want the member to know that I continue
to discuss it with the finance minister and have his assurance
the House will be dealing with the issue of unpaid work in
Canada.
Mr. Tony Valeri (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his
hard work on the finance committee as well as for his work in his
constituency on prebudget consultations. He certainly had a
dramatic impact on the budget. He is very learned in terms of
tax issues.
Would the hon. member draw upon his tax experience and comment
on the tax system in general? Would he also provide some input
on what he has heard from his constituents with respect to the
opportunities program that was put in place by the budget? That
program will be essentially for families, on which the hon.
member continues to focus.
The hon. member for Mississauga South has consistently been a
strong promoter of families. He has done a fair amount of work
in that area and continues to do so. He has spoken with me on
the issue, as well as with other members of our caucus.
Could the member tell us what he heard from his constituents
after the budget was presented? I am sure he has talked to a
number of people. I would be very pleased to hear what his
constituents had to say.
Mr. Paul Szabo: Mr. Speaker, it is important for
Canadians to know that parliamentarians listen carefully to their
constituents with respect to government actions or proposed
actions. With respect to the budget, as I indicated, the aspect
of balancing the budget was first and foremost in the minds of
Canadians.
As the parliamentary secretary has outlined, the whole issue of
the Canadian opportunities strategy has been extremely well
received by my constituents of Mississauga South and others across the
country, as others members of this place have seen.
1355
The millennium scholarship fund, the increased funding for the
council on advanced research, the tax relief measures for student
loan interest and the improvement of the Canada Student Loans Act
are very important parts of the budget. As well there are tax
measures for promoting life-long learning, EI premium breaks for
employers hiring young Canadians and funding for SchoolNet and
Internet projects. There is an opportunity for families to
provide future education for their children through the RESPs.
Many Canadians are unaware of some of these programs. The job
of members of Parliament is to pass on this kind of information
to their constituents through householders and otherwise to let
them know about the opportunities that have been made available.
The theme in the budget has been preparing our young people for
the knowledge based economy of the 21st century. I thank the
member for his kind words. There is no question there is an
appetite in the House to see that families have all the
flexibility, options and choices they need to ensure we invest in
our children, the future of Canada.
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
listened to the member comment on the new millennium fund his
government introduced.
If it is such a good idea to have scholarships available for
Canadian students and if the program is being front ended by $2.5
billion this year, why can Canadian students not access it this
current year?
Mr. Paul Szabo: Mr. Speaker, the member asks an
interesting question. I noted that provision. Certain
accounting rules of the Government of Canada are not
discretionary. There are accounting rules as there are for any
business. The auditor general is the one who determines whether
or not charges to a particular fiscal period are appropriate.
With regard to the millennium scholarship fund and the $2.5
billion, it is clear a decision was taken. Once the legislation
is dealt with that endowment will go forward and start earning
income. It will have the value that will be necessary to provide
100,000 scholarships for needy Canadians who show the merit of
post-secondary education over the next 10 years.
The member asks a particular question as to the propriety of the
charge which would be better posed to the auditor general.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
SOULPEPPER THEATRE COMPANY
Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parkdale—High Park, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, yesterday in Toronto, 12 of Canada's leading theatrical
artists joined forces for the launch of that city's first
classical repertory company.
Martha Burns, Susan Coyne, Ted Dykstra, Michael Hanrahan, Stuart
Hughes, Robyn Stevan, William Webster, Joseph Ziegler and
artistic directors Diana Leblanc, Diego Matamoros, Nancy Palk and
Albert Schultz are the founding members of the Soulpepper Theatre
Company.
This company will present vital Canadian interpretations of the
classics while providing professional training for classical
theatre.
The company's inaugural season will be directed by its first
guest master director, Robin Phillips, and produced in
association with the Harbourfront Centre. Joining the company
for the inaugural season are two of Canada's most celebrated
actors, Brent Carver and Peter Donat.
I wish the members of Soulpepper the best of success on this
very exciting initiative.
* * *
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Chuck Cadman (Surrey North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
section 745, the faint hope clause, is alive and well in Ottawa.
Brett Morgan was convicted of murdering Louise Ellis. He also
killed an Edmonton woman and is a suspect in another murder. An
Ottawa judge recently sentenced him to life with no opportunity
for parole for 25 years.
Yesterday I had lunch with Susan Ashley whose 16 year old
sister, Linda Bright, was murdered by Donald Armstrong 16 years
ago. Like Morgan, Armstrong is believed to have killed before.
Like Morgan, Armstrong was sentenced to life with no chance of
parole for 25 years.
Linda Bright's family was shocked and angered when Armstrong
applied under section 745. I expect Louis Ellis' family will
also be shocked.
It is time for the government either to scrap section 745 or be
honest with Canadians by admitting it believes that murderers
should serve no more than 15 years before being eligible to apply
for parole.
We all know what our Canadian police have been saying in our
offices this week: “Scrap section 745”.
* * *
1400
WINTER OLYMPICS
Ms. Aileen Carroll (Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I rise in the House today
to congratulate the athletes and coaches who honoured their
community of Barrie by participating in the Olympic games at
Nagano.
As member of Parliament for Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, I hope this
House will allow me some bragging rights.
Last night the city of Barrie and the Barrie Sports Hall of Fame
honoured these Olympic athletes, coaches and other participants
who live, work and train in Barrie. These include Olympic silver
medalist and world figure skating champion Elvis Stojko, figure
skater Jeff Langdon, Shanye Corson on the men's hockey team and
Stephen Cousins, British figure skating champion.
Also honoured were figure skating coaches Robert Tebby and Doug
and Michelle Leigh, co-operators of the world renowned Mariposa
School of Skating in Barrie and the training quarters for skaters
from 17 countries.
I am proud to express my appreciation for the distinction these
Olympians—
The Speaker: The hon. member for London—Fanshawe.
* * *
CANADA-IRELAND INTERPARLIAMENTARY FRIENDSHIP GROUP
Mr. Pat O'Brien (London—Fanshawe, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
am pleased to inform the House that the Canada-Ireland
Interparliamentary Friendship Group has been officially formed.
I wish to thank the hon. members from Egmont and
Victoria—Haliburton for their good work in helping form this
association. Also, thanks to former MP Mary Clancy who in the
35th Parliament chaired an informal association which helped
prepare the ground for our formal friendship group.
The Canada-Ireland association has been formally launched with
56 members from the House and Senate. All five political
parties, even the Reform Party, in every region of Canada are
represented.
I am honoured to be elected first president of this association
and I look forward to welcoming many more members.
Our major goal is clear, to maintain and strengthen the historic
bonds of friendship between our two great nations, Canada and
Ireland.
* * *
PARALYMPICS
Mr. Reg Alcock (Winnipeg South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise today to remind the members of this House that the winter
Olympics are not over.
This week in Nagano the Paralympics are taking place. Canada
has sent a team of 32 athletes as well as coaches and medical
support staff to the games. Our athletes are competing in four
of the five sports, alpine skiing, biathlon, cross-country skiing
and sledge hockey.
This past Sunday Canada won its first two medals of the games.
Collette Bourgoneya of Saskatoon won a silver medal in
cross-country skiing and Dan Wesley of New Westminster, B.C. won
a bronze in men's alpine.
Like the athletes who competed in Nagano in February, Canada's
Paralympians also personify the Olympic motto: higher, faster,
stronger.
I would like the members of this House to join me in recognizing
the superlative achievements of all Canada's Paralympians.
* * *
CANADIAN ARMED FORCES
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
hundreds of Canadian forces personnel have once again answered
the call, packed their bags and headed for the Persian Gulf. The
brave Canadians who sign up for military service do so out of a
sense of duty to their country. It is a terrible shame that our
government does not have the same sense of duty in return.
On February 11 the defence minister rose to assure this House
that Canadian personnel in the gulf were being inoculated
forthwith against anthrax. Time was of the essence for that
vaccine to work. It was only this past weekend, however, that
the first sailors actually started getting inoculated against
such a threat, which everyone knows exists in the region, almost
too late.
Was it because the defence minister could not get organized? Or
was it because he did not care? In either case, his assurances
were hollow.
The defence minister should be ashamed of himself. We need to
pay the highest respect to our forces. We need to give them all
the protection they need to do their job.
* * *
[Translation]
SALIMA GHEZALI
Mrs. Maud Debien (Laval East, BQ): Mr. Speaker, to follow up on
International Women's Day, I want to pay tribute to Salima
Ghezali, a teacher turned reporter, who distinguished herself as
a leader in the struggle of women in her country, Algeria.
This opponent of religious fundamentalism and winner of the
Sakharov human rights prize awarded by the European Parliament
and the Olof Palme award was honoured for her courage in bearing
witness against the violence inflicted upon the Algerian people
while herself under constant threat of death.
This straight talking woman who is the manager and editorialist
of the weekly La Nation does not hesitate to condemn the
situation in Algeria.
1405
The problems of the Algerians are beyond description. Tens of
thousands of people have died because of the murderous
destruction of terrorism. Human rights violations are also a
major problem in that country.
Let us salute this woman who has the courage to stand up for her
beliefs, in the face of adversity and in these troubled times in
Algeria.
* * *
[English]
GUN CONTROL
Mr. John Maloney (Erie—Lincoln, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
congratulations go out to the Quebec Court of Appeal for its
good sense in ruling that the four year minimum penalty for
committing an offence with a firearm does not violate the
Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The automatic sentence
was part of the federal government's tough gun control package
that was introduced in 1995.
Prior to the amendments, the one year minimum penalty for using
a weapon while committing certain crimes was supposed to be in
addition to the sentence for the crime itself. The new provision
was challenged by a first time offender and the judge wisely
ruled that the four year minimum did not constitute cruel and
unusual punishment contrary to the Canadian Charter of Rights and
Freedoms. The judge continued to say that the mandatory sentence
was severe but it was not disproportionate and did not offend the
standards of decency.
I welcome this decision as we try to cope with the rights of
victims. The victim is much more traumatized by robbery with a
firearm than without. The four year mandatory is the right way
to deal with the trauma imposed. The four year mandatory is the
right way to go.
* * *
[Translation]
ASSOCIATION FÉMININE D'ÉDUCATION ET D'ACTION SOCIALE DU
QUÉBEC
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I add my voice
to those of the members of Quebec's Association féminine
d'éducation et d'action sociale, or AFEAS, in making
recommendations to the government with respect to the new
legislation that will be introduced regarding the seniors
benefit.
The AFEAS wants the government to respect the principle of
individuality in paying every man and woman benefits calculated
on the basis of their personal income instead of family income;
to maintain a universal basic benefit recognizing the unseen work
done by women for children and other relatives; and to provide
substantial financial assistance to the disadvantaged instead of
a small handout, which is cancelled out by a series of tax
measures that reduce available income.
These are recommendations worth looking at, and they are in
contrast with the confusion cultivated by the government on this
issue.
* * *
[English]
INFRASTRUCTURE
Mrs. Claudette Bradshaw (Moncton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
am glad to see that the member from the fifth party representing
Tobique—Mactaquac is now embracing the infrastructure program
after his party refused to support it.
[Translation]
The infrastructure program is not a Mulroney program where
members' staff would have been imposed on their communities.
Instead, this program is designed to ensure that local
communities determine their needs themselves and set their own
priorities.
[English]
The decision making process of the infrastructure program has
always reflected the needs and priorities set by local
communities and will continue to do so as long as this government
remains in power.
Due to the previous success of the initial infrastructure
program, this government decided to introduce a second
infrastructure program which is now enjoying the same measure of
success.
* * *
THE SENATE
Mr. Rick Casson (Lethbridge, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, in 1989
Albertans proudly chose Stan Waters as their first elected
senator in Canadian history. In Edmonton last week Albertans,
their provincial government as well as their federal government
representatives reaffirmed their overwhelming support for an
elected Senate, the first step toward a triple E Senate, elected,
equal and effective.
The Prime Minister is on record saying: “I pledge to work for a
Senate that is elected. As Prime Minister I can take steps to
make it happen”.
Talk is cheap but unfortunately an unaccountable, out of control
Senate is not cheap. Canadians can ill afford the status quo of
unaccountability and absenteeism.
I urge the Prime Minister to heed the democratic will of the
people to end backscratching patronage appointments to the Senate
and to make good on his pledge for an elected Senate, or is the
pledge for an elected Senate just one more in a long line of
broken promises?
* * *
MEMBER FOR EDMONTON NORTH
Mr. Gerry Byrne (Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, as the youngest member of caucus in this government, I
am obliged to stand in defence of senior citizens in this
country.
I and all other members of this house who recently read an
article in the Victoria Times were shocked at the comments
made by the Reform member for Edmonton North when she spoke of a
73 year old, Mr. Archibald Johnstone. In questioning Mr.
Johnstone's energy level at the age of 73 she said: “Sir,
retire, get a motorhome and go to Florida”. What a message from
the Reform party to senior citizens.
1410
I just want to ask one question. If Senator Johnstone's age was
not a factor when he served Canada at the age of 16 as a crew
member of the Royal Air Force heavy bomber squadron during World
War II, there is no reason why Senator Johnstone cannot serve his
country in the Senate.
Senior citizens across the country are outraged to note—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Kamloops.
* * *
THE SENATE
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, NDP): Mr. Speaker, one issue
that unites Canadians from coast to coast to coast is the issue
of Senate reform.
It costs Canadian taxpayers approximately $60 million a year to
run the Senate. In overwhelming numbers Canadians want the
existing, unelected, unaccountable, undemocratic Senate
abolished.
A Senate filled with political hacks, flacks and bagmen has no
place in a modern day democracy, but despite his rhetoric the
Prime Minister refuses to initiate any process of real Senate
reform when opportunities occur.
Recently in British Columbia a Senate vacancy provided an
opportunity for the Prime Minister to begin the process of real
Senate reform.
The premier of British Columbia supports Senate abolition and
Senate reform. The people of B.C. want to abolish the Senate.
B.C. is fed up with the Senate. With 13% of the population of
Canada it has less than 6% of the seats.
Why does the Prime Minister continue to ignore B.C.? Why does
he not listen to the people of British Columbia? Why does he
ignore the government and the premier of British Columbia calling
for abolition of the Senate?
B.C. does not want another appointed senator. B.C. wants this
Senate abolished.
* * *
[Translation]
QUEBEC FLAG
Mr. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on January 21,
1948, the National Assembly adopted the fleur-de-lys as the
official flag of Quebec, and an order-in-council to that effect
was enacted on March 9, 1950. The premier of the time made it
perfectly clear that this flag was to be the flag of all the
people of Quebec.
The fleur-de-lys is a symbol of the pride of Quebeckers, and their
sense of belonging to a society which has developed within a
context of respect for all cultures, and defence of the French
language and culture.
The fleur-de-lys is also a symbol of a people whose duty it is to
jealously guard this treasure of their society and to take great
care that no government whatsoever will take it over for
partisan purposes.
I repeat, it belongs, not to one party, but to all the people of
Quebec. This flag is the symbol of past battles for freedom, for
the defence of democracy, and for the determination of the people
of Quebec to achieve their full potential within a North American
cultural context.
Long live the flag of Quebec!
* * *
[English]
ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, today
Canadian police forces across this country have been meeting with
parliamentarians to discuss issues of great concern to them.
One issue relates to the RCMP. And in my province of New
Brunswick the provincial government has unilaterally replaced
municipal police forces in the city of Moncton with the RCMP.
And it plans to do the same in two other municipalities, the
villages of Grand Bay and Westfield.
Our municipal police forces are worried, and rightfully so.
When the RCMP comes in and takes over there is no guarantee that
municipal police officers will be hired. Those who are hired do
not enjoy the same employee rights that they once did under the
provincial law.
Today these officers are in the gallery and are asking for a
very simple measure from this government. On behalf of them, I
urge the solicitor general to instruct the RCMP to adopt a
takeover and hiring protocol similar to that employed by the
Ontario Provincial Police.
* * *
[Translation]
INVESTMENTS IN CANADA
Ms. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, after the federal budget's prediction that the deficit
would be eliminated, Statistics Canada has released some
interesting figures on investment forecasts.
Businesses and public administrations predict record investments
of $120 billion in facilities and equipment in 1998, which is
5.5% more than last year. Quebec's performance should exceed the
Canadian average. This is a good argument in favour of keeping
Quebec within Canada.
In the private sector, the situation will also be favourable.
For example, shipping companies project investments of $6
billion in 1998, $1 billion more than in 1997.
In Quebec, investments will exceed the Canadian average for the
first time in three years, and should increase by 8.4% this
year, compared to 6.2% for the country as a whole.
Such reports destroy the sovereignist myth that the Canadian
economy—
The Speaker: We will now proceed to oral question period. The
Hon. Leader of the Official Opposition.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
1415
[English]
CUBA
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, yesterday a prominent Liberal MP compared life under
Cuba's dictatorship to life in Frank McKenna's New Brunswick.
After all, he said, both Castro and McKenna held all the seats in
their legislatures. This MP was speaking as a representative of
this House and these remarks might even be viewed by some as the
position of the government. Does the government agree with these
outrageous statements?
The Speaker: Colleagues, I would judge that question is
quite borderline. I would ask the hon. Leader of the Opposition
to be very judicious in posing his other questions. I will
permit the question if the hon. Deputy Prime Minister wishes to
answer it.
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition did not identify the member
in question but I can say if he is referring to press reports
that the individual in question was not speaking on behalf of the
government and was not expressing the position of the government.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, Cuba has no freedom of the press, no real political
freedoms and Castro throws his political opponents in jail. But
this prominent Liberal MP whose views could be construed as those
of the House or the government denied that human rights in Cuba
were a problem, saying it was an internal matter that we should
not criticize. He said that Castro's jailed political opponents
were just so-called political prisoners—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: In the preamble of the question, although no
member was mentioned, I find that any statements made by the
Speaker do not fall under the administrative responsibility of
the government. I had asked the hon. member to please be
judicious in his words and I will pass on. The hon. member for
Fraser Valley.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
today Canada hosts U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, a
representative of one of our closest allies and our strongest
economic partner. She is here to discuss issues of mutual
concern including human rights issues. So imagine our surprise
to wake up this morning to see the headlines in our national
newspaper that scream out outrageously “Speaker lauds Cuban
democracy”.
What is the Prime Minister—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Laurier—Sainte-Marie.
* * *
1420
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, on
March 4, in Rivière-du-Loup, the Minister of Human Resources
Development acknowledged that an employment insurance plan
covering only 42% of unemployed workers was inadequate.
According to Mr. Fortin's study, not only is the plan inadequate,
but it encourages people to leave the labour market and go on
welfare.
Will the minister acknowledge that a very high proportion of the
58% of unemployed workers excluded from his plan have no choice
but to turn to welfare?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I said yesterday in this
House, I am delighted that the number of people on welfare in
Quebec is at its lowest in the past five years.
This is certainly the result of the economic reforms in this
country, which have led to improved growth in the labour market.
Because we have a dynamic market and we have corrected certain
systems that were operating very badly, our economy is running
better.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, while
the number of welfare cases has dropped in Quebec, the minister
neglected to say that it would have dropped even more had it not
been for his plan, because people no longer entitled to
unemployment insurance end up on welfare. This was eloquently
demonstrated by Professor Fortin.
Does the minister, who is always talking about his active
measures, realize that the measures he is proposing have
contributed to reducing participation in the job market to its
lowest point in 50 years because people are hesitant to take
jobs that are too precarious? They know that they will no longer
be entitled to employment insurance and so they turn to welfare.
That is the reality, not what the minister's technocrats see.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I find it staggering that the
government is being criticized for the additional million jobs
in Canada we now have. This means our economy is running
smoothly.
Second, people on welfare in fact do have the opportunity to
benefit from active measures, because we broadened access to
these measures, as people, whether they be on welfare when they
qualify or on employment insurance when they are unemployed, want
active measures to be able to return to the labour market.
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the minister was patting himself on
the back for having made it possible, through his so-called
reform, for 450,000 more women to have the pleasure of
contributing to employment insurance.
The real question, however, is this: Does the minister admit
that, according to his own department's estimates, only 10% of
these 450,000 women contributors will one day have any hope of
gaining access to EI benefits?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the improvements we have made to
the employment insurance system met the aspirations of women,
who are far more likely to be part-time workers.
What we are pleased to have accomplished is that people can now
accumulate hours worked, sometimes in two or three different
jobs, so that they are insured, where they were not in the past.
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, a mistake has to be acknowledged before it can
be corrected. The minister's problem is that he is determined to
deny the evidence.
How can the minister continue to defend his reform, when it is
clear that far fewer unemployed people will draw benefits than
in the past, that a large number of them will have no choice but
to go on welfare, and that Ottawa will save billions of dollars
yearly at their expense, as a result of this reform?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we are greatly concerned by the
fact that participation in the employment insurance system has
dropped, and I have acknowledged this in the House on numerous
occasions.
This is something we need to understand more thoroughly before
decisions are made, because that is how we operate. We need to
understand why this drop has occurred, before we can find an
effective solution to the problem.
Mr. Michel Gauthier: You are not helping unemployed workers.
Mr. Yvan Bernier: Including unemployed women.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew: But if people want us to return to an
obsolete system which penalized our country's workers and its
economy, that is not what we are going to do. We are going to
continue to serve Canadians properly.
* * *
[English]
HEALTH
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, the Minister of Health said yesterday that home care is
the most urgent element of modernizing and enhancing medicare.
1425
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Speaker, I do not know why
they are clapping across the way because the finance minister
obviously does not agree. There was not one penny in his budget
for home care.
My question for the Minister of Health is why did he make those
earnest statements yesterday when he does not have the support of
his own government?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
this is so typical of the New Democratic Party. According to
that party, we should spend first and find out why afterward.
What we prefer to do is identify priorities, make a plan,
develop a partnership with the provinces and then invest wisely
to get the job done. That is exactly what we are going to do.
Yesterday we set out the priorities and now we are going to
create the plan and develop the partnerships. We will then solve
the problem.
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, the Minister of Health will know that the issue of a
national home care plan has been studied for many, many months,
including an in depth analysis by the National Forum on Health
Care. Canadians do not want more studies. They want cash on the
table.
If home care is such an urgent priority, why is the Minister of
Health promising only to study this idea for another 12 to 18
months? If it is such an integral part of medicare, why is there
no money for home care now?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
had the hon. member attended the conference she would have seen,
as I did, that 400 knowledgeable people from across the country
who know the subject agreed that the important thing to do is to
plan wisely and invest carefully if we are going to solve the
problem.
The hon. member's leader attended yesterday only long enough to
go to the microphone and play politics instead of trying to be
part of the solution.
Hon. Jean J. Charest (Sherbrooke, PC): Mr. Speaker, when
we asked the government about health care spending last week, the
Prime Minister blamed Ontario and the province of Quebec. I
understand that yesterday the Prime Minister blamed Manitoba.
The Prime Minister said there would be further cuts in health
care funding in Manitoba, but when we checked we found that not
only have there been tax cuts in Manitoba, the government of Gary
Filmon included $100 million more for health care.
Could the Prime Minister and the government tell us why health
care seems to be a priority only for the premiers and not this
Liberal government?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the hon. member will have seen in the budget two weeks ago the
importance of health care. The first thing this government did
when fiscal circumstances improved was to cancel the intended
reduction in transfers to the provinces. This resulted in $1.5
billion more in transfer payments this year. We have also given
$60 million for a new blood system and investment in medical
research.
It is clear that the priority for us is health which is
reflected in the budget this year as it will be in the future.
[Translation]
Hon. Jean J. Charest (Sherbrooke, PC): Mr. Speaker, the Minister
of Health would do well to listen to the Canadian Medical
Association, which said the health care system was in crisis.
Seven out of ten provinces will see a drop in the funding they
receive from this Liberal government.
I want to know if the minister, along with the Prime Minister, is
prepared to repeat the remarks he made in the House of Commons to
the premiers, who are now calling for a federal-provincial
conference on the health care crisis. Will they accept the
invitation from the premiers to sit down with them to discuss
the future of health care?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I
have just said, we increased transfer payments to the provinces
in this year's budget.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Hon. Allan Rock: It is also very important to point out, as I
did yesterday, that the crises are, in most cases, the result of
home care needs. Yesterday, in Halifax, during a pan-Canadian
conference, we put forward a co-ordinated agreement to tackle
home care and improve the health system.
1430
The Speaker: The hon. member for Skeena.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: The hon. member for Beauharnois—Salaberry.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
* * *
KOSOVO
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, another
major conflict appears to be brewing in the Balkans with the
crisis in Kosovo, and once again the international community is
being asked to come to the aid of peoples threatened by
massacres.
My question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs. Does he
consider that the bilateral sanctions he announced and the
multilateral sanctions proposed by the U.S. Secretary of State,
Madeleine Albright, are truly effective ways to restore peace to
Kosovo?
[English]
Mr. Ted McWhinney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Foreign
Affairs at this very moment is in discussion with the Secretary
of State of the United States on measures to resolve the Kosovo
crisis.
The measures announced are those that are within our present
grasp, that is to say the termination of the export credits to
the Export Development Corporation, the cessation of discussion
of bilateral arrangements with Yugoslav airlines and the
interdiction of any export of arms to the region.
Other measures can be discussed further. We are in continuing
contact with countries in the region which are also directly
affected.
I would ask the hon. member—
[Translation]
The Speaker: The hon. member for Beauharnois—Salaberry.
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, will
the minister recognize that it may be necessary to expand the
role of SFOR, the stabilization force in Bosnia, that was set up
to restore peace there, which may well be needed to restore peace
this time in Kosovo?
[English]
Mr. Ted McWhinney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, that rests as a
possibility, but I would also remind the hon. member that there
are other countries not so far present in the resolution of the
Bosnian issue that are involved. It may well be that the
peaceful resolution will require widening the boundaries of
discussions to include these too.
* * *
[Translation]
HEALTH
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is
for the Minister of Health.
Last week the minister stated that the provinces' priorities for
health were not the right ones. Yesterday, the minister
indicated that the priority was to establish a national home care
program.
1435
How can the minister responsible for billions of dollars in cuts
in health care, via the Canada social transfer, be so arrogant as
to contend that provincial governments have set the wrong
priorities regarding health?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday, I identified what the priority was for the federal
government, that is, to strengthen the health system in Canada,
especially in the area of home care.
I said yesterday that, in the months to come, I intend to work
with my partners at the provincial level, my provincial
counterparts, to find a way to meet the challenge of home care
and remedy obvious flaws in the current system in Canada. That is
what the priority is for the Government of Canada.
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, are we to
understand that, after infringing upon education with the
millennium scholarship, the federal government is now set to
repeat its feat in health with a national home care program, in
spite of the fact that health is an exclusive provincial
jurisdiction?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Not at all, Mr.
Speaker. It is not a matter of infringing upon a provincial
jurisdiction. The federal government has an important role to
play and we intend to play that role and honour it.
* * *
DECRIMINALIZATION OF MARIJUANA
Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is
for the Minister of Health. Polls tell us that a majority of
Canadians and Quebeckers now support decriminalizing marijuana
for medical purposes.
Is the minister prepared to set up a parliamentary committee to
conduct an in-depth review of this issue, so that recommendations
can be made regarding the decriminalization of marijuana for
medical purposes?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
issue is under consideration by my department and by the
Department of Justice. Along with my colleague, we are reviewing
all the aspects of the issue, particularly the use of marijuana
for medical purposes. We hope to present our policy in the coming
months.
Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
supplementary is for the Minister of Justice.
Will the minister recognize that, by refusing to take a stand
and to assume her responsibilities in this matter, she is leaving
it up to the courts to make the decision?
[English]
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would not concede that I am
shirking my responsibility in this matter. In fact, as the
Minister of Health has indicated, he and I have put our officials
to work to develop a position that we will bring forward for
consideration by all members of the House.
I think the Minister of Health and I concede that the possible
decriminalization of marijuana for medicinal purposes is an
important issue. It is one that we are studying. It is one that
we are going to continue to look at.
* * *
RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT
Ms. Susan Whelan (Essex, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, expenditures
on research and development in Canada are lagging behind other
countries, particularly our major trading partners such as the
United States and Germany.
I have a question for the secretary of state. What is this
government doing to invest in Canada's future?
Hon. Ronald J. Duhamel (Secretary of State (Science, Research
and Development)(Western Economic Diversification), Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the budget provided $405 million additionally over three
years for our brightest and our best graduates to conduct leading
edge research throughout Canada to ensure that we continue to be
competitive and additionally so.
[Translation]
I could mention several other initiatives, but I will stop here.
* * *
1440
[English]
DISABILITIES
Mr. Rick Laliberte (Churchill River, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
last week the Prime Minister received an international award for
Canada's progress on disability issues. At the same time in
Spiritwood, Saskatchewan, Mr. Maurice Bourassa, a man missing
both his legs and an eye, was again denied disability benefits
from the government.
Does the minister of human resources support the CPP decision
that losing two legs and an eye does not meet severe prolonged
criteria? What is his answer to Mr. Bourassa today?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, of course all Canadians are
quite proud that the United Nations recognized our country and
our great efforts toward disabled Canadians.
The Prime Minister received recognition for the work and the
progress we have made as far as disabled people in Canada are
concerned.
I commend the work of the Minister of Finance as well who worked
with our ministry of human resources. I have been able to
promote a number of very positive improvements for disabled
Canadians in the country.
Mr. Rick Laliberte (Churchill River, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
further to this issue, Mr. Bourassa has tried for years to be
self-sufficient. He has been taking courses and working hard but
his injuries keep preventing him from succeeding.
He is left with student debts and little hope. He is betrayed
by this country and abandoned, a victim of bureaucratic loopholes
and budget targets.
Will the minister responsible admit that his department is
making a mistake and tell Mr. Bourassa today that he will not be
a statistic and his claim will be accepted?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, of course there is an
element of confidentiality. I would not begin to discuss the
precise file of a Canadian citizen in the House.
I will look into the file. I will look into the situation and I
will make sure that we do the proper thing.
* * *
HIGHWAYS
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr. Speaker,
it is time for a good highway question. In September 1995 the
Minister of Transport put $16.2 million into a highway project in
New Brunswick on one condition, that the province of New
Brunswick put $16.2 million in as well.
As soon as the federal money was in the province pulled its
money out. The people of Canada entrusted the minister to look
after their $16.2 million.
Will the minister now call the province of New Brunswick to put
the money back as it agreed?
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I have answered the question before. I have talked
at length on this matter with the hon. member. I assure him that
as far as the Government of Canada is concerned this agreement
was executed faithfully.
New Brunswick discharged its end of the bargain. The federal
government only paid for work once it was audited and the work
was done in compliance with the contract.
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr.
Speaker, clause 5.2(d) of the agreement says that any
modification of the financial agreement requires the approval of
the federal Minister of Transport in writing. If the minister
did not approve this change in writing, in effect the federal
government has broken a contract as well.
Did the minister agree in writing and will he table that
agreement today?
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I think I have gone out of my way to give the hon.
member all the details as far as the federal government is
concerned on this highway agreement.
I will try to get more answers for him so that he is satisfied.
He knows, and I have acknowledged it in the House, that there is
an issue that has to be dealt with in future agreements, that is
the application of tolling arrangements.
I invite the hon. member to give his ideas on how we could
effect a better policy for a national highway program.
* * *
FISHERIES
Mr. Gurbax Singh Malhi (Bramalea—Gore—Malton, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, my question is for the Parliamentary Secretary to the
Minister of Fisheries and Oceans.
It is my understanding that Canadian approved inflatable personal
flotation devices, PFDs, will soon be available for Canadian
boaters. How will these new inflatable personal flotation devices
help to improve safety for Canadians?
1445
Mr. Wayne Easter (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Fisheries and Oceans, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, safety is a primary
concern to the Canadian coast guard.
The initiative my hon. colleague talks about is about saving
lives. Current research indicates that many people when they are
in the water and boating do not wear PFDs because of their
bulkiness. The new devices will differ from current devices in
that they are lighter and more comfortable to wear and it is
assumed people will use them.
* * *
IMMIGRATION
Mr. John Nunziata (York South—Weston, Ind.): Mr.
Speaker, my question is for the minister of immigration.
The minister is now seized with a report which recommends that
people who cannot speak French or English should not be allowed
to immigrate to Canada. Is the minister prepared today to
categorically reject this racist recommendation?
[Translation]
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (Minister of Citizenship and
Immigration, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member should
have listened to my statements on the consultations I am
currently holding across the country.
I personally expressed some concerns regarding such a
recommendation. Strict adherence to these criteria would, I
believe, prevent some very good potential citizens from
immigrating to our country. This is true not only for the
language requirement, but also for age and education. I have made
it very clear that I myself have some reservations.
[English]
Mr. John Nunziata (York South—Weston, Ind.): Mr.
Speaker, I did not hear a categorical rejection of that
recommendation. Her own leader at Queen's Park said yesterday
“I cannot support any federal immigration policy that
contradicts the spirit of Canada's tradition”.
I put the question to the minister again. Will she today
categorically reject the racist recommendation?
[Translation]
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (Minister of Citizenship and
Immigration, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, again, during these
consultations, which end tomorrow in Ottawa, I heard various
groups express their concerns on the issue.
However, these groups showed much more moderation in their
comments than the hon. member does. They told us that, indeed,
learning a new language is an asset for someone coming to Canada.
However, to make this an essential requirement would be going too
far.
Obviously, we will look at what Canadians think about this
requirement and apply the best—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans.
* * *
SHIPPING
Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
recently 40% of the passengers on the Norwegian Star were
infected by a virus on three consecutive cruises.
As tourists from cruise ships are vital to the economy of the
ports along the St. Lawrence, the government intends to
implement a program to carry out health inspections on all cruise
ships calling in the ports along the St. Lawrence.
My question is for the Minister of Transport. Who will pay for
the new service: the passengers, the shipowners, the port
authorities or the government?
[English]
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, we are very concerned about what goes on in ships in
Canadian waters. The hon. member should know that the federal
Department of Health has been concerned about some of the
incidents of lack of hygiene on the ships. It is moving to try
to bring in better standards to ensure that safety is paramount
when these ships arrive at Canadian ports.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, is the minister aware that the cruise industry is very
lucrative for the St. Lawrence and that it should be promoted
and not further taxed?
[English]
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I certainly appreciate the value of the cruise
industry not only to the St. Lawrence but also to the Great
Lakes. Last fall in my home city of Toronto we welcomed the
first cruise ship in many years. We hope it is the first of many
more to come.
This is a matter we are concerned about. We are interested in
encouraging these cruise ships and we are making sure when they
do come that health standards are respected.
* * *
1450
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, here we are
with the third employment insurance reform since 1990, and the
consequences are clear. Fewer people draw benefits, and when
they do, it is just a pittance. At the present time, scarcely
40% of this country's unemployed qualify for EI.
When will the situation be critical enough to make the Minister
of Human Resources Development act? When that figure drops to
25%? When it drops to 15%? What will it take to get the minister
to revise the eligibility criteria for employment insurance?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for
Acadie—Bathurst for his question.
I have already stated on a number of occasions, including last
week at Rivière-du-Loup, that I am concerned by the fact that the
proportion of EI recipients is only 42%, when it used to be 80%.
Before making any decision whatsoever, we must have a proper
grasp of the figures and I have yet to receive an explanation.
Once we have understood the reality, we will take corrective
action.
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, does the
Minister of Human Resources Development not realize that human
beings are suffering, that children are going hungry?
Is the minister prepared to strike a parliamentary committee to
settle the EI problem for once and for all?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for
Acadie—Bathurst would do well to start learning about his own
region. The employment insurance participation rate in the
Atlantic region is 75%. The participation rate in the province
of New Brunswick is over 80%.
The problem as he describes it may not even exist in his own
region.
* * *
[English]
CANADIAN ARMED FORCES
Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, PC): Mr. Speaker,
our soldiers in the gulf have finally received their vaccine
against anthrax. However, our sources at the Pentagon inform us
that the anthrax vaccine was tainted while being shipped to the
gulf.
What information can the minister add? Can he assure this House
that the vaccine taken by Canadians is 100% effective and safe?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have medical professionals who are
administering inoculations, the first dose of which has already
been given. They ensure that anything we give to our troops is
safe.
Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, PC): Mr. Speaker, I
want to thank the minister of defence for taking my party's
advice and finally having our men and women who are now in the
gulf vaccinated for anthrax.
Canadians who have served under the flag of the United Nations
in the Golan Heights since 1967 are in the direct line of fire of
any attack on Israel by Saddam's anthrax. Why are these
Canadians not being vaccinated for anthrax?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member had been following the
news, he would know that the threat in the area is even lower
than it was previously and it was very low to start with.
With the agreement that secretary-general Kofi Annan has been
able to work out, hopefully we will see the appropriate
diplomatic resolution of this matter. Meanwhile, any of our
people in the area will receive the appropriate medical support
that they require. There are antibiotics and other inoculations
for other possible diseases. Anything that our allies get we
will be getting as well to ensure that we give the maximum
support to our troops.
* * *
STATUS OF WOMEN
Mr. Joe Jordan (Leeds—Grenville, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
this year's theme for International Women's Week is the evolution
of women's rights, a lifelong commitment.
As someone who has had experience working in Ethiopia, I would
like to know what the government is doing to bring help to as
well as to engage women in developing countries.
Hon. Diane Marleau (Minister for International Cooperation
and Minister responsible for Francophonie, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, Canada is the leader in terms of development work with
women in the developing world. Many of our programs focus on
women and young girls, including the access to potable water,
adequate sources of nutrition and education. We even go as far
as to have a program to help them with micro credit.
Helping women in the developing world is very important for
Canadians.
* * *
1455
[Translation]
SENIORS' BENEFIT
Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire (Longueuil, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
government is now reviewing the existing system of retirement
income security.
Instead of being based on individual income, this new seniors'
benefit would henceforth be based on family income, thus
depriving many women of a pension. Since this was announced, we
have heard an outcry of protest, from the AFEAS among others.
My question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.
Does the minister admit that an approach such as the one he
appears to favour may well strike a hard blow to women's economic
independence?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, since
the basic principles of the reform were set out in 1976, we have
consulted with a number of groups, including the AFEAS. It is
our intention, following the consultations, to introduce
legislation this year.
* * *
[English]
HEALTH CARE
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, NDP): Mr. Speaker, we
witnessed earlier today a form of parliamentary hooliganism.
Unlike the Reform Party, I am going to ask the government a
question regarding home care. Hooliganism has no place on the
floor of this Parliament. I think it is time we consider
question period in a serious vein.
My question is for the Minister of Health. When will Canadians
see a commitment in financial dollars for home care?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I made it plain yesterday that when we have consensus among the
governments which must act in partnership, when we have a clear
plan as to how to achieve this priority, the Government of Canada
will be there to fulfil its responsibility to make its
contribution of an appropriate amount.
We cannot now spend before we know what we are spending on. It
is one thing to say there is a problem. It is quite another to
take the time and trouble to develop the right solution. That is
exactly what we are going to do.
Mr. Greg Thompson (Charlotte, PC): Mr. Speaker, I have
raised a number of times in the House the compensation issue for
victims of hepatitis C. I have repeatedly asked the minister to
act unilaterally to save a great deal of hardship.
The minister is on the record as saying, and I have to believe
him, that he does not want to see this issue go to the courts
because it will be very costly and it will be a very protracted
legal entanglement.
I am asking the minister today, on compassionate grounds, will
he act unilaterally on behalf of these innocent victims?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
in my judgment, and I hope the hon. member would agree, the
interests of the victims themselves are best served by some form
of out of court resolution or compensation which involves both
levels of government. That is exactly what we have been working
on.
In recent weeks I have been engaged in discussions with my
provincial counterparts. We are making progress. I believe we
are going in the right direction. I am very hopeful that before
too long we will have a co-ordinated announcement to make in
relation to compensation.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is addressed to the Secretary of State for Children and
Youth. I know that she is very knowledgeable about the issue of
fetal alcohol syndrome and fetal alcohol effects. I also know
she is aware that the Canadian Paediatric Society and Health
Canada have issued a joint statement which states that the best
decision for pregnant women is to abstain from alcohol during
pregnancy.
Will the secretary of state advise the House as to exactly what
her ministry is doing under the youth strategy program with
regard to fetal alcohol syndrome and fetal alcohol effects?
Hon. Ethel Blondin-Andrew (Secretary of State (Children and
Youth), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, FAS and FAE, fetal alcohol
syndrome and fetal alcohol effects in some parts of Vancouver
affect one out of every five children.
The costs attributed to FAS and FAE are in the billions of
dollars for aftercare. Many correlations are made between FAS,
FAE, young offenders and young people who are incarcerated.
The government in all of its programs has to take note of this
problem and work on it. It cannot be just one department. I
think the main players would be human resources development and
Health Canada.
There are outstanding reports from previous governments which
contain good recommendations. There are things which we can look
at and actively pursue.
1500
The Speaker: My colleagues, that will bring to a close
our question period.
* * *
[Translation]
PRESENCE IN GALLERY
The Speaker: I wish to draw the attention of members to the
presence in our gallery of Emmanuel Akoghe Mba, delegate to the
Prime Minister and head of the Government of Gabon.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
[English]
The Speaker: I have received notice of a number of points
of order and I will hear them.
* * *
[Translation]
POINTS OF ORDER
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in a
reply to the hon. member for Longueuil, it appears that I
referred to a consultation process that started in 1976. The year
was 1996. Let me explain: it was not my father who did this in
1976.
[English]
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is with some reluctance that
I rise to bring the issue that I am to the floor of the House.
It is the issue of what went on earlier today in question period,
what I would call one of disrespect for the chair and its
occupant.
It is a privilege of all of us, perhaps even our duty, to be as
partisan as we feel necessary in order to make our points in this
House. I for one, who has been around here for a long time, some
might say too long, have been more than partisan upon occasion,
both as a government supporter and an opposition MP, which I also
was, as your Honour will know, for a very long time.
In all the years that I have been in this Chamber I have not yet
witnessed what I saw occur here today in terms of asking
questions, not only referring to the Speaker as “a prominent
Liberal MP” but also to ask directly in a subsequent question
about what Mr. Speaker as a person said outside of this Chamber.
Mr. Speaker, I bring to your attention Citation 168 of
Beauchesne's Sixth Edition, on page 49 of this document. It says
of the occupant of the chair:
The chief characteristics attached to the office of Speaker in
the House of Commons are authority and impartiality. As a symbol
of the authority of the House, the Speaker is preceded by the
Mace which is carried by the Sergeant-at-Arms and is placed upon
the Table when the Speaker is in the Chair. The Speaker calls
upon Members to speak. In debate all speeches are addressed to
the Speaker. When rising to preserve order or to give a ruling
the Speaker must always be heard in silence. No Member may rise
when the Speaker is standing. Reflections upon the character or
actions of the Speaker may be punished as breaches of privilege.
The actions of the Speaker cannot be criticized incidentally in
debate or upon any form of proceeding except by way of a
substantive motion.
This has been a consistent ruling as outlined in the
Journals as early as June 4, 1956. These are very old
principles in our Parliament and must be respected. I believe
that they are by the vast majority of us. Hopefully they will be
in the future by all of us.
I read further:
Confidence in the impartiality of the Speaker is an
indispensable condition of the successful working of procedure,
and many conventions exist which have as their object, not only
to ensure the impartiality of the Speaker but also, to ensure
that there is a general recognition of the Speaker's
impartiality.
The Speaker takes no part in debate in the House, and votes only
when the Voices are equal, and then only in accordance with rules
which preclude an expression of opinion upon the merits of a
question.
1505
The rules of this House are quite clear for all of us. I
believe, notwithstanding anything that members might have said,
that these rules are well known either explicitly or implicitly
by all of us. Even if they were not, the proper rules of decorum
in which all of us are to operate would dictate that everything I
have just said should be the basis of our working here in
Parliament.
I, for one, and I am sure all of my colleagues have the utmost
confidence not only in the great office of the Speaker, but in
the present occupant of the chair and those who support and
fulfil this very important function.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Speaker, I would hope that any
action that may have taken place in the heat of debate today will
be withdrawn and instantly regretted by those who have made the
remarks that have been made so we can continue from here on in to
have the confidence in you that we have always displayed in you
and for the great office that you hold.
We owe it to this House and to this country and those who came
here alleging new ways of doing parliamentary business, new and
respectful ways of the authorities, will see fit to do that here
and now.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise on a point of order in regard to what went on today in
question period, the admissibility of the question that I tried
to ask in the questions that were put forward by the Leader of
the Opposition.
These questions were intended to address ministerial
responsibility of the government because they were designed to
clear any doubt as to the position of the government in regard to
its relationship to Cuba. The doubt, whether the member opposite
or anyone else likes it or not, was necessary because of comments
and headlines in national newspapers this morning that we all
woke up to, and saw in the Quorum.
I refer you to Beauchesne's 6th Edition, Citation 162 which
states:
Citation 164 states that the Speaker communicates the
resolutions of the House. Citation 166 explains the rank of the
Speaker which states:
The Speaker's rank is defined by Order in Council of December 19,
1968, in which it is provided that upon all occasions and in all
meetings, except where otherwise provided by Act of Parliament,
the Speaker shall have precedence immediately after the Governor
General, the Prime Minister of Canada, Chief Justice of Canada,
former Governors General, former Prime Ministers and the Speaker
of the Senate, and immediately before Ambassadors and Members of
the Cabinet.
Mr. Speaker, you truly do hold a high and exalted role in
Parliament and in the Canadian parliamentary system. When you
speak and when you are quoted, with your rank also comes the
responsibility of being quoted properly and of being answerable
for those comments since you do in fact speak on behalf of all of
us when you speak publicly in your role as the Speaker.
I believe the opposition was doing the responsible thing in
asking the government to clear any misconceptions about the
government's position toward Cuba, in our relationship with Cuba
and so on.
1510
Mr. Speaker that is what the question was, certainly that asked
by the Leader of the Opposition, where he asked the government to
clear up what is our position. The first question was answered
by the Deputy Prime Minister. He tried to clarify it. The
Leader of the Official Opposition rose again to get more details
about what was being done about the communication of that
position and at that point, you refused to listen to him. You
refused to listen to him for the remainder of the question
period.
The questions of the Leader of the Opposition were an attempt to
clear up any misconceptions that the headlines and the quotes
brought upon the position of this Parliament and, I think, the
position of the government. Certainly that was the intent of
those questions. Mr. Speaker did not listen to those questions
and did not allow the normal rotation that has been negotiated
between House leaders about the rotation between the parties
during the question period. I think this was shortsighted
because we never did get to the bottom of what the government
position was.
Those quotes from Beauchesne's I think properly puts you in the
elevated spot that parliamentarians and Canadians hold you in but
that does not mean that we cannot ask questions that have been
raised both publicly in the press and in a public forum in your
role as the Speaker in order to clarify them and allow the
government to put their position on the table.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, we just went
through some very sad events and I must say that I agree with
the last comment made, to the effect that you play an extremely
important role at the core of the whole democratic and
parliamentary system of this country.
This role was protected by those who, in the past, through
wisdom and through practice, established the rules governing how
this House operates.
I will not spend a lot of time on this issue. I simply want to
tell you that, in our opinion, this role of yours—which is to
protect democracy, to see that all parliamentarians are equal in
this House, regardless of the political party to which they
belong, and to ensure the proper administration of the affairs of
this House, including in committee and any other place where
parliamentarians have to work—is being fulfilled remarkably
well.
At times, we could have, given the situation in which we find
ourselves in this Parliament—and we were tempted to do so,
which is only human, as you know—challenged decisions that were
not to our advantage or that did not please us.
At times, we were even tempted to leave Parliament, to show that
we were unhappy with the way things were done.
But always guided by the most elementary wisdom and respect for
those who sent us here, those who came here before us and those
who will come after us, we controlled these initial impulses.
We agreed that it was important to put our confidence in you
and, time after time, this confidence has been justified:
decisions have been rendered in our favour when we were right and
others against us when we were wrong.
As I indicated yesterday, there has been a general feeling of
unease these past few days, with members unexpectedly rising to
issue an extremely serious challenge to the institution that is
the Chair.
I have no intention of raising this issue again today, but I
would just like you, Mr. Speaker, to know that no member of this
House has the power to challenge the Standing Orders or the way
they are applied by you in this place on our behalf, as we have
mandated you to do with the support of the table officers, whose
expertise is undeniable.
1515
Your rulings cannot be questioned. We may not always be happy
with them, but we must recognize their wisdom and, usually, in
time, we realize that it is in everyone's interest to operate
within the very specific structure provided by the rules
governing deliberative assemblies such as ours.
It is a matter of respect for democracy. It is a matter of
respect for authority. I would not want any parliamentarian to
tarnish the image of this House by behaving in an unacceptable
manner.
In that sense, Mr. Speaker, given that, as far as we are
concerned, your duties have always been carried out with dignity
and competence and that all of us are here for a number of months
if not years, we will have to learn to toe the line and obey the
rules, not to defy authority and to realize that, however
partisan or impassioned the debate, the kind of behaviour we have
witnessed cannot and will not be tolerated.
In the name of democracy, of this institution and of my
political formation, I tell you that we have confidence in the
work that has been done so far. We reiterate our confidence and
are prepared to help implement measures to restore confidence in
those who obviously do not work well within this system and
ensure that their behaviour is worthy of parliamentarians.
Recall does not exist yet in politics. Perhaps this is a good
thing for those who show no respect for our institutions.
[English]
Mr. John Solomon (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I rise to offer the NDP's view on this point of order
which I believe is an extremely important matter that the
government House leader has raised.
I was a member of the Saskatchewan legislature for almost 10
years. I have been a member of this House of Commons for about
four and a half years. I have never seen such a blatant action of
hooliganism in my view by any political party anywhere in Canada
in those 14 years.
If the issue with respect to the Reform Party was a matter of
foreign policy, what they did was not raise the issue of foreign
policy but try to raise political points on the Speaker which in
my view, and what should be the view of every member of
Parliament in this House, is that the Speaker's position
is sacrosanct and should be independent.
It is perhaps ironic that today was the national lobby day for
the Canadian Police Association. In my discussions with them we
talked about a number of issues, including the Young Offenders
Act and hooligans and yet, maybe in spite of the national lobby
day by the police association, we see a very blatant display of
hooliganism right in this House of Commons. They have tried to
hijack the House of Commons and I personally take offence at
that.
The final point I want to raise is in reference to what the
Reform whip has made reference to but did not finish reading.
That is citation 164 in Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules &
Forms. The Reform whip read:
He did not finish the sentence, which continues on:
It is my view, Mr. Speaker, that you should study this issue,
study the point of order that has been raised by the government
House leader, and in your capacity as Speaker if you find that
this is a point of order relevant to Beauchesne's, that you take
your authority and reprimand the Reform Party for its disgusting
action in this House of Commons.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, there has been a lot of reference to this incident.
There has been reference to you and your role as the Chair.
Perhaps the most important word that has been used here is
respect.
I would also suggest an important word is impartiality. When you
don the cloak of the Speaker, of the Chair, you also don the
impartial role of presiding over this House for all members,
regardless of partisan politics.
1520
Mr. Speaker, the language that was used in the question that you
ruled in my opinion rightly out of order had in its preamble
reference to you particularized as a prominent Liberal MP. I
would suggest that you rightly ruled this out of order.
As a point of reference in your deliberations over this
government point of privilege, I refer you to section 404 of
Beauchesne, sixth edition, where it states at page 119:
No questions of any sort may be addressed to the Speaker. If
information relating to matters under the jurisdiction of the
Speaker is required, it must be obtained privately.
There were options available. Had the Reform Party wished to
address this matter, it could have raised it on a point of
privilege or a point of order. However they chose not to do so.
They did so in an improper way which you ruled out of order.
It is also with some regret that I make reference to the fact
that we are here again in this situation, mired down in a debate
that could have been avoided.
Yesterday, you will recall, there was a point of privilege
brought forward by the Conservative Party. At that time the
government remained silent on this point.
There has been a very frightening and disturbing trend in that
there is a disintegration in the rules of Parliament, something I
am sure you are aware of and something I am sure that you have to
be concerned about. We are seeing this happen quite readily over
the last two weeks.
Mr. Speaker, I am sure, and I join with the voices of support in
this House for you, that you will make a proper, deliberate,
judicious ruling, to use your words, over these points of
privilege and points of order.
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to add a few comments to those already made
on the point of order raised by my colleague, the government
House leader.
I want to say that none of the precedents cited by the Reform
whip in any way suggest that the Speaker of the House is ever the
voice of the government. Section 162 of Beauchesne says: “The
Speaker of the House of Commons is the representative of the
House itself in its powers, proceedings and dignities”.
This is understandable because section 163 of Beauchesne says
“The Speaker is elected by the House itself”.
The Reform whip attempted to suggest that words of the Speaker
of this House had some significance as words of the government
because of the Speaker's place in the order of precedence. Let
us take a look at section 166 of Beauchesne. It says: “The
Speaker's rank is defined by Order in Council on December 19,
1968 in which it is provided”, and I go on to read: “that the
Speaker shall have precedence immediately after the Governor
General, the Prime Minister of Canada, the Chief Justice of
Canada, former governors general, former prime ministers and the
Speaker of the Senate and immediately before ambassadors and
members of the cabinet”.
There is nothing whatsoever in this citation that suggests that
whenever the Speaker expresses himself, whether in this House or
outside this House, he is speaking on behalf of the government.
If the interpretation of the Reform whip of section 166 were
accurate, then he himself would be attempting to argue that when
the Chief Justice speaks, he is speaking on behalf of the
government, or when the Governor General speaks he is speaking on
behalf of the government. This is patently wrong and patently
ridiculous.
With respect to the questions raised by the Leader of the
Opposition, I do not think it is proper in the light of the
precedents of this House for a question to even imply that the
Speaker of the House is anything other than impartial and that
anything he says is raised on behalf of the government.
This is something that should be obvious to somebody in this
place from the very first moment he enters this House.
1525
Therefore, I underscore the points made by the government House
leader and others that the remarks, the implications in the
questions of the Leader of the Opposition were totally out of
order. The implication suggested in the questions by the Leader
of the Opposition that the press reports, assuming they were
accurate, in any way meant that the person involved was speaking
on behalf of the government is totally wrong. I respectfully
suggest that the best way for things to be put back on their feet
is for the Leader of the Opposition to come into this House,
recognize what he did was wrong and express words of apology.
When the Reform Party first came to this House in some
substantive number, its members said that they intended to bring
a new tone to the House of Commons, a new atmosphere of civility.
I wish they would look at their words at that point in time when
they first entered the House and take these words seriously.
They should have these words reflected in their actions today.
If the members of the Reform Party reflected on what they said
at the opening of the 1993 Parliament and contrasted what they
said with their actions today, they would feel ashamed of
themselves. The best way to remove that shame is for the leader
of the Reform Party to express words of apology. Mr. Speaker, I
am sure that you and we would accept those words and we could get
back to serving Canadians and serving the business of Canada.
The Speaker: Colleagues, the last thing I ever wanted
to be was the focal point of any kind of anger or any kind of
criticism in this House. My only reason for being the Speaker of
this House is to see to it that all of you, my colleagues and
myself as a member of Parliament, are treated fairly.
From the outset I have tried to see to it that all of you
Canadian parliamentarians had the chance to express yourselves
and be heard within the rules of the House of Commons. You have
entrusted me to look at the rules and to make decisions on behalf
of the House.
There can be no doubt that there was criticism of me in the
House this afternoon. Of course there was. Perhaps the hon.
whip of the opposition party has every right to criticize what I
do. Perhaps the Speaker should be criticized when he brings—I
do not want to use the word dishonour, but I will use the
member's word if indeed it was that—shame—
An hon. member: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Please, my colleagues.
But there is a way. There are avenues that we have to deal with
our Speakers and their actions. Our rules and practice provide
avenues for such criticism. I do not think it should be done
under the guise of a point of order. I do not think it should be
done under the guise of debate.
1530
I would suggest to you that if the Leader of the Opposition who
spoke earlier today or the government whip if he wishes to by
moving a substantive motion against the Speaker, he has this
procedure open. They both have this procedure open; you all have
this procedure open to you.
I do not want to be the focal point of the debate.
[Translation]
Heaven knows there are enough problems, enough important issues
in our country that I should not be the focus of attention.
[English]
We have gone on now for a few days taking up valuable time, your
time, talking about actions of the Speaker, what he did do, what
he did not do. We have better things to do.
I, with all respect to you, to every one of you my colleagues, I
invite you that if you do have these strongly held views to bring
a substantive motion against me. I invite you to do it now so
that we can clear the air.
Mr. Chuck Strahl: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate your
comments. I will look at that option and get back to you as
quickly as I can.
The Speaker: My colleagues, this matter is closed for
now. Orders of the day.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
THE BUDGET
FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF MINISTER OF FINANCE
The House resumed consideration of the motion that this House
approves in general the budgetary policy of the government.
The Speaker: Do I have another point of order?
[Translation]
Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Carleton—Gloucester, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise on another point of order.
I want to tell you that I was hurt, insulted, saddened and even
disgusted to see the Reform member for Medicine Hat throw the
Canadian flag on the floor of the House, in a fit of rage
directed at you.
The Reform Party leader, who claims to be a champion of the
Canadian flag, should apologize for such contempt toward our
flag.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
[English]
The Speaker: We will take that as a point of debate. We
have gone to orders of the day.
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to return the debate to budget 1998.
Over the last two weeks, I have had the occasion to meet with
Canadians in many parts of the country and out of the country. I
have discussed this budget in communities like Sudbury, Toronto,
Vancouver, Oakville, London, Medicine Hat and Vancouver. I had
the occasion last week to speak with business leaders at the
Chicago Executive Club in Chicago, Illinois.
I can say that everywhere people are recognizing that this
budget represents a major economic achievement. It is a national
achievement, an achievement in which all Canadians can take pride
because all Canadians have contributed to our victory over the
deficit.
[Translation]
Congratulations are due to my colleague, the Minister of
Finance, and the Prime Minister for their leadership in achieving
a balanced budget by the end of this fiscal year—the first
balanced budget in almost three decades.
1535
In four years, with the commitment and support of all Canadians,
we have wrestled a $42 billion deficit to the ground and set
Canada on an irrevocable course to reduce the debt. The benefits
are now clear. On the fiscal side, we are already moving on debt
reduction. The 1998 budget delivers $7 billion in tax relief over
the next three years.
[English]
This budget is more than a milestone in our battle against the
deficit and debt. It sets the agenda for building a knowledge
based Canadian economy for the 21st century. The knowledge
revolution is changing the basis of success for individuals,
businesses, communities and nations. It is breaking down the
barriers of time and distance. It is redefining old notions of
competitive advantage, giving greater prominence to the quality
of people's skills and the inventiveness of their ideas. It
affects all sectors of our economy.
To meet the demands of our knowledge economy, we face the
challenge of developing a learning culture. It will spark the
continuous improvement and the creation and application of new
ideas that we need. It will feed a stronger Canadian innovation
system.
The 1998 budget builds on initiatives that we have taken in
previous budgets to build an innovative learning culture in our
country, initiatives such as the technology partnerships Canada
program and the Canada foundation for innovation. Budget 1998
expands and deepens that record of action across the industry
portfolio. It injects new resources into key programs that
invest in people and technology such as the agenda for connecting
all Canadians.
Last September the Speech from the Throne included our
commitment to reach an ambitious goal, to make Canada the most
connected nation in the world by the year 2000. We want to make
Canada the world leader in developing and using an advanced
information infrastructure to achieve our social and economic
goals in the knowledge economy.
This budget commits an additional $260 million to the agenda for
connecting Canadians. Of that amount, $205 million will support
the expansion of successful programs such as community access,
CAP, and SchoolNet. Our old goal for SchoolNet was to connect
every school in Canada to the Internet. We will achieve that
goal this year, 1998. With the new funds we will go on to link
every classroom in every school.
[Translation]
The new funding for CAP will allow us to surpass our old target
of connecting 5,000 rural Canadian communities to the Internet by
the year 2000. Now we will be able to expand CAP into urban
areas, providing an additional 5,000 sites, making all centres
sustainable and upgrading the network.
We will also create the Voluntary Sector Network Program
(VolNet) to link voluntary and charitable organizations across
Canada to the Internet and to each other. Our initial goal is to
link at least 10,000 voluntary organizations to the Internet.
[English]
At the heart of connecting Canadians is the right
infrastructure. The budget also responds to that need. It
includes $55 million for CANARIE to build the next generation
Internet, the world's first all optical broadband network.
Connecting Canadians is only one way the budget is investing in
building Canada for the 21st century. We are making important
investments in university research and the development of highly
qualified people by increasing the budgets of the three
university research granting councils by more than $400 million
over the next three years.
We are expanding the National Research Council's successful
industrial research assistance program, IRAP, by an additional
$34 million this year. That support will help more Canadian
small businesses to adopt new technologies. It will help them
develop new products and processes for commercial markets here
and internationally.
IRAP provides technical advice to more than 10,000 small and
medium size enterprises each year. It provides financial
assistance to help more than 3,000 businesses with research and
development. These kinds of initiatives are changing the
economic face of Canada.
1540
If we look at this city in which we are now, Canada's high
technology centre tells that story very well. As we all know,
this was once a city seen as the home of the federal government
and little more. Those days are gone. Over the past years a
solid base of high technology employment has expanded enormously.
I am proud to say that co-operation between federal research and
development agencies and our private sector leaders have helped
to spur that growth.
According to the Ottawa-Carleton Economic Development
Corporation, in 1990 the Ottawa region had 300 high tech
companies. By 1997 that figure was more than 800 and it is
continuing to rise.
[Translation]
Some of these new leading-edge businesses are spinoffs from the
work of the NRC, NSERC and our other agencies. For example, last
October, the NRC announced five new spinoff companies, four of
those setting up shop here in Ottawa.
The new and expanding companies in our high tech sector mean
jobs. OCEDCO estimates that their growth will mean that
Ottawa-area employers will need to fill nearly 20,000 positions in
the telecommunications and information technology sectors alone
over the next five years.
[English]
Once again the agencies that are getting increased support
through this budget are helping to solve that need. The National
Research Council is working with educational and private sector
partners to address the critical shortage of software engineers
through programs such as the O-Vitesse partnership.
The investments in learning and in our innovation system that
the budget is making are important. They are creating
opportunities for young people to learn and to find work. They
are creating opportunities for businesses to master the tools of
the new economy. They are building on our fiscal success to make
Canada a strong trader in the global knowledge based economy of
the 21st century.
I have travelled over the last two weeks literally from one end
of Canada to the other. I met with people to talk about the
important aspects that we find in this budget. We were talking
not just about the realization of a long time target of reaching
a budgetary balance, but of the new investments in the ability of
Canadians to make the adaptations that are necessary to enter
fully into the knowledge based economy of the 21st century.
I saw in each of the cities that I visited a realization that
this indeed is the key to Canada's future. Our success in the
past can be built upon by a success in the future that recognizes
the importance of human resources, the importance of knowledge,
the importance of learning and the importance of technology.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
listening to the Minister of Industry, one would think one was
on another planet. He says he has gone across the country and
has found that business people, and indeed everyone, is happy
with the finance minister's latest budget.
I would just quote a few comments made by business people,
including Mr. Cléroux, vice-president of the Canadian Federation
of Independent Business, who said the day the budget was brought
down, and I quote “It is a budget lacking vision, with no job
strategy”.
So, when we are told that the business community was happy, we
have our doubts.
There was some unanimity around the budget, to the effect that
it was not the budget of a visionary, and that, as far as real
strategic planning with respect to the economy and jobs, the
Minister of Finance was not perhaps the best person.
He says that everyone was happy. The day the budget was brought
down, and the following day as well, all the provincial finance
ministers and premiers—Mr. Romanow spoke on behalf of all Canada's
premiers—were united in condemning this budget, saying that the
Minister of Finance was taking credit for all the benefits of
putting the fiscal house in order when it was their work that had
made it possible and that they had received nothing for their
efforts.
The Income Taxpayers' Association also had something to say.
There were people representing taxpayers.
They found $4 billion in tax cuts over the next three years
laughable. Since he has been Minister of Finance, do you know
how much the taxes of Quebeckers and Canadians have gone up? By
almost $31 billion in three years.
1545
So, thanks to him, people have paid an additional $31 billion in
taxes over the past three years. Now he is telling us that, in
the next three years, he will be reducing taxes by $4 billion.
That amounts to laughing in people's faces.
The Minister of Finance is much quicker and more effective when
it comes to voting in legislation for himself that suits him in
terms of international shipping business than when it comes to
reducing everyone's taxes for the collective good.
I have a question for the minister, in view of his remarks. We
know that the first deficits date from a Liberal government some
25 years ago.
I would ask him whether he agrees with our voting on an
anti-deficit law in this House that would set specific parameters
ensuring the accountability of the Minister of Finance to the
House of Commons?
Would he agree to anti-deficit legislation to ensure that the
Liberals do not fall back into their old ways of spending and
put us in the situation they did 25 years ago?
Hon. John Manley: Mr. Speaker, all I can say is that throughout
Canada, on my visits following the budget, people welcomed me
enthusiastically and expressed their pride at finally having a
balanced budget.
For 25 years—it indeed started in the early 1970s and continued
until last year—we increased the debt burden. It was a major
problem, and we were limited in the choices the government could
make because of the deficit and the debt.
Now that we have a balanced budget—the first of the G7 countries—we
have choices. We can regain control over our finances and decide
ourselves on the vision we will follow in the coming years.
[English]
The new economy will not be built by bricks and mortar. The new
economy requires knowledge, learning and connections of all
Canadians to the new technologies that will exist.
The budget has the vision to do that, but it is based on the
sanity of finances that has been recovered as a result of the
efforts of the Minister of Finance.
Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Mr. Speaker, it
is with some delight that I rise to talk to the budget of 1998, a
budget of which Liberals are so proud. Quite frankly they do
have not a lot of reason for such pride.
Yesterday in the House, in response to a question that I asked
of the Prime Minister, I suggested that maybe health care was the
top priority of Canadians generally across the country, whether
they be premiers of provinces, finance ministers, health
caregivers or other Canadians. The Prime Minister suggested to
me at that time that I should probably go back to the Winnipeg
budget and look at the budget of my colleagues, the Tories in
Manitoba, who reduced taxes but did not add one cent to medicare.
I have had the opportunity to go back and look at the Manitoba
budget that came down four days ago. I suggest that we can make
some comparisons between the Manitoba budget and the Liberal
budget tabled in the House. I honestly say that the Liberals can
learn something from my colleagues in Manitoba.
Its budget was the fourth balanced budget Manitoba had put
forward to its citizens. Over $100 million of new money was added
to the Manitoba health care portion of the budget to bridge
significant federal cuts to Manitoba's transfer payments.
In response to the Liberal government, Manitoba has shown that
health care is a priority. Additional dollars are and have been
going into health care in the Manitoba budget. Of that $100
million Manitoba spends $1.93 billion or 34% of its total budget
on health care. I use that to stress the fact that the province
of Manitoba recognizes health care is in a crisis and is a
priority of its budget.
1550
I also suggest that maybe the Liberal government would like to
go a little further and take another lesson from Manitoba which
has implemented balanced budget legislation. The Liberal
government could learn from Manitoba. Its balanced budget
legislation has been in place for a number of years. If the
budget of Manitoba is not balanced, ministers and the premier
have to pay the consequences.
In the budget which was just brought down in Manitoba there was
a reduction in personal income tax. Is the government listening?
There was a reduction in personal income tax. There was debt
repayment and a plan for continued debt repayment in the Manitoba
budget. It was increased from $75 million to $150 million in
this budget year to retire the debt. The Liberal government
unfortunately has not learned those lessons.
In the Manitoba budget small business was acknowledged. An
economic opportunity will be available if the businesses are
treated properly. In the small business reduction the payroll
tax went from 2.25% to 2.15%, but it was a reduction in
regressive payroll taxes. Unfortunately the Liberal government
has not learned the lessons of other provincial governments.
There was a capital tax reduction. There was an increase in the
exemption from $3 million to $5 million. That is very positive.
The Manitoba government recognizes that small business is the
backbone of our economy. The Liberal government should take
lessons from it.
The Prime Minister suggested that I make some comparisons
between the Liberal budget and the Manitoba budget. Let us talk
about the Liberal budget. It is balanced for the first time.
Congratulations. I am very pleased that finally the budget is
balanced.
Let us understand why the budget is balanced. It is not because
of the last three and a half or four years of this
administration. It goes back to 1991 when a policy was put into
place to target inflation. The 1991 policy caused interest rates
to drop, which allowed the government to balance the budget.
Other policies were put into place from 1991 to 1993. One of
them was the NAFTA. Make no mistake about it. The reason the
economy is so strong today in Canada is international trade. We
live in a global society. We live in a global economy.
When members of the government were in opposition they said “We
will rip it up. We will have nothing to do with international
trade. We will have nothing to do with globalization”. Now
they have decided that it is such a good thing they will expand
the NAFTA. We are going to expand into Europe. We are going to
expand with the MAI. We are going to expand into South America.
Make no mistake. That policy was put into place by a previous
administration.
Then there was the GST. The same people who are now in power
said “We will scrap it. We will not have it any longer”. In
fact the GST, which was put into place by the previous
administration, was used to bring the operating deficit down to
zero in this year's budget. The Liberal government should thank
the previous administration immensely for balancing the budget of
1998.
Let us have a look at the Liberal record. Canada today, after
four years of Liberal administration, has the highest personal
income levels of the G-7 countries. We did not hear that in the
finance minister's budget speech but it is fact. The Liberals
have raised taxes 40 times since 1994.
1555
According to an Industry Canada study that was done with the
United States, Americans today are 25% richer than Canadians.
American manufacturing workers get paid $1 per hour more than
their Canadian counterparts. America's jobless rate is 4.7%
while Canada's is 8.6%. Canadian wage earners pay roughly
one-third more in taxes than their American counterparts.
Canadians have been making up for stagnant incomes by eating
into their savings and borrowing more. I know my colleagues on
the government side will pooh pooh this, but there is another
statistic that in this year there will be more bankruptcies than
ever before. There will be record levels with 97,000 registered
bankruptcies in Canada this year.
The government cannot blame anybody. It cannot blame previous
administrations. It cannot blame the economy. It can blame only
itself and the tax record it put forward to the country.
According to Statistics Canada, taxes took the largest bite out
of the household budget in 1996. Taxes took 22% of every dollar,
whereas 17 cents went for shelter, 12 cents went for food and 12
cents went for transportation.
I hope Canadians were not looking for a big break on taxes in
the budget, because they got none. Quite frankly they will have
to pay more taxes. Even though the spin doctors are putting the
spin that there were tax reductions in the budget, the fact of
the matter is that when it comes down to the dollars and cents
off a paycheque, at the end of every month they will be paying
more in taxation than they have in tax breaks in the budget.
Liberals continue to overtax Canadian workers and employers and
kill jobs by keeping employment insurance premiums unnecessarily
high. It was our position that the government should take the $7
billion overexpenditures and transfer those dollars to CPP and
not increase the CPP payments the way it did. That is where it
comes to the fact that Canadians this year will be paying more in
tax dollars than they did last year. They have had huge
increases in CPP but have not had an offset in employment
insurance premiums.
I go back to the Manitoba budget. Manitoba recognizes that
business is a very important part of the economy. It reduced
regressive payroll taxes. It increased the exemption in capital
assets. It reduced capital tax. It allowed Manitoba businesses
to have an environment to expand, to hire people and to develop
an economy that Manitoba would like to have.
The Prime Minister said “Go and compare with the Manitoba
budget”. He and the finance minister should have made that
comparison prior to tabling their own budget in the House.
The Liberals are planning no measure to ensure that a fiscal
dividend will either be achieved or become a permanent part of
the federal budget scene. Like the province of Manitoba, the PC
Party believes that there must be tough balanced budget
legislation to ensure the country is never again caught up in the
spiral of deficits and debt. We propose a balanced budget law
that would reduce the pay of the Prime Minister and cabinet if
the deficit ban were broken.
Let us talk about that. We have a budget that was tabled in the
House by the finance minister. It was the first and only budget
I have ever seen that never used any assumptions. It never
showed Canadians exactly what the surpluses would be. It never
showed Canadians a fiscal plan to reduce the debt on an ongoing
basis. Why was that?
The reason was that the finance minister did not want to show
Canadians exactly what the surpluses were. The estimates are
that there should be between $5 billion and $15 billion worth of
surplus if the job were handled properly by the government. That
$5 billion to $15 billion surplus should translate into debt
reduction and tax reduction.
Unfortunately we never saw those numbers at the bottom of the
finance sheet because the finance minister is afraid to show them
in case his caucus, his colleagues and his cabinet may wish to
spend those dollars on other issues. Quite frankly they spent
those dollars because they have not been translated into tax cuts
or have not been translated into deficit reduction or to debt
reduction.
The Department of Finance projected several billion dollars in
the government's surplus, but the money has been spent anyway
before Canadians got a chance to see it.
1600
Jeff Rubin, chief economist for CIBC Wood Gundy, said that the
Minister of Finance “does not have a political mandate to run
budgetary surpluses so he is hiding them from Canadian taxpayers
in an effort to explain why he is not giving them tax relief. If
he were to acknowledge where he really stands, this budget would
be politically indefensible”.
The budget raises the basic personal amount of deduction by only
$500. The basic exemption right now in this budget is $6,956,
taking 400,000 people off the tax rolls. My party would raise
the basic exemption level to $10,000 which would take two million
Canadians off the tax roll.
There is nothing in this budget to encourage job creation for
Canadians by alleviating the tax burden on small business. The
Prime Minister said that the member for Brandon—Souris should
look at the Manitoba budget to see what it has done with health
care in terms of priorities. The member for Brandon—Souris
looked at the Manitoba budget and found that there had been a
personal reduction on income tax in that province. There has
been a personal reduction of income tax in Alberta and Ontario
but the Liberal government is obviously deaf to those who talk to
the reasoning of tax reductions.
Taxation policy can influence the economic environment which in
turn may affect the competitive position of a country in a global
market. As such, a competitive and stable taxation policy has
the potential to be an effective tool for the Canadian government
to promote investment in economic activity in the country.
Taxation generates immense perceptions from investors who are
looking for new opportunities worldwide. In recent years Canada
has shown significant improvement in terms of lowering the tax
burden. Nonetheless, even if the present trend continues it will
take some time to shed the perception of Canada as a high taxed
country.
Catherine Swift from the Canadian Federation of Independent
Business comments on the budget: “Further tax cuts would help
create jobs. We're still not seeing a major job creation agenda
here and from a small business job creator standpoint that really
should be a prime target”.
I hate to repeat myself but I will. Let us go back to the
Manitoba budget. The Prime Minister suggested I do that. Do I not
listen to what the Prime Minister says? Go to the Manitoba
budget. I went to it and believe me, the Manitoba budget does
speak to assistance to small business. We would speak to
reducing small business taxes from 12% to 8%, to reducing
corporate tax rates from 28% to 24% and to increasing the small
business deductions from $200,000 to $300,000.
The PC party would also increase the capital gains tax exemption
from $500,000 to $750,000. Entrepreneurs and people in the
farming industry are more willing to take risks and bring their
ideas to market when they know they will be able to keep more of
what they earn. Increasing the capital gains tax exemption is
just one suggestion for attracting investment capital for start
up or expansion. The agricultural small and medium size business
sector is the most dynamic sector of the economy and should be
rewarded. None of those words were even considered by the Liberal
budget, which is a travesty because small business was the loser.
The budget of the finance minister and the government failed to
restore the $6 billion the Liberal government took out of
transfers to the provinces for health care, education and social
assistance. I was told to go back to look at my own province
because it is not showing it as a priority. Wrong. We put $100
million into health care which did not come from the federal
government in the form of any transfer payments. It came from
the pockets of the taxpayers of Manitoba. Seven out of ten
provinces continue to get less cash for health care and education
than they did before the Liberals formed this government.
Here are some glowing reports from some provincial politicians
concerning this Liberal budget: “It is a further kick in the
teeth to all provinces and I think you will see more provinces
retreating into saying we are on our own, we've got to solve our
own problems”. That comes from Ontario Premier Mike Harris.
“Canadians, Manitobans, premiers, finance ministers,
governments right across this country have called for the federal
government to put back into place some of the support for health
care”.
That comes from the Manitoba finance minister, Mr. Eric Stefanson.
1605
I repeat this budget has done virtually nothing for the
provinces which in fact are doing the job and doing it very well.
They are doing it without any federal assistance.
One area of my responsibility is agriculture. I have looked
through the budget and I looked through the throne speech. In
neither have I seen any indication that agriculture is even
playing an important part in the Canadian economy.
“Canadian farmers gave their pint of blood over and over again
to help Ottawa get its deficit under control. Now the federal
government has to deal with the serious issue of farm income and
security”. That comes from Jack Wilkinson, Canadian Federation
of Agriculture.
Nowhere did this budget deal with any of the issues that are
facing agriculture not only now but in the future.
“There is painfully little in this budget on agriculture. It
looks like they basically said goodbye to that productive sector
in terms of any new initiatives for family farms. It makes it
pretty clear that we are way down on the list of those who are
deemed to be worthy of attention”. That comes from Nettie Wiebe
of the National Farmers Union. But she had a point. There was
nothing with agriculture in this budget.
The federal government offers nothing to the agriculture
industry in this budget, nor did the government even mention
agriculture in the throne speech. Two strikes. A third strike and
I believe agriculture will see this government out.
The only measure it confirmed was the $20 million over the next
four years Canadian rural partnership program. I have received
and looked at the criteria of the Canadian rural partnership
program. It is a $20 million over four year program. That is $5
million a year.
What is it going to do? It is going to facilitate some pilot
projects. It is going to allow departments to come together so
that they will be allowed to see how effective the programs are
they now have in place. We will put $5 million a year over four
years and basically accomplish nothing.
Ministry of agriculture's Pest Management Regulatory Agency
budget for 1997-98 is going to have a $4.5 million deficit. The
deficit was a result of the PMRA's not properly analysing its
product base to generate fees.
We are going to put $5 million in one hand to try to look at the
programs are, the pilot projects and facilitate programs for
farmers. Yet farmers are going to pay $5 million a year more for
PMRA which they did not want in the first place.
I know it is time to wrap up. I appreciate your time and this
House's time. I must say that the balanced budget is the only
good positive thing that I can say about the budget that was
tabled. Other than that, all the issues that were dealt with in
this budget, unfortunately, could be dealt with much better.
Mr. John Harvard (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Agriculture and Agri-Food, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon.
member for Brandon—Souris brought up our home province a number
of times in his presentation. I think it is only responsible in
my reply to respond to some of the things that the hon. member
has said.
He said that he was concerned about some of the things that were
somehow omitted, certain kinds of information omitted from the
finance minister's budget of last month. Given that the hon.
member is concerned about omissions, I would like to cite a
couple of omissions on his part.
First of all, the hon. member for Brandon—Souris mentioned that
the Filmon government in the province of Manitoba devotes 34% of
its budget to health care. Maybe the hon. member for
Brandon—Souris would like to know that 36% of Mr. Filmon's
budget comes from the federal government, just a little, small
point that he might be interested to know.
Let me go a little further because he makes certain implications
about how the provincial government or the province of Manitoba
is treated by this budget.
I would like to remind the member for Brandon—Souris that when
our government came to office in the fall of 1993, about four and
a half years ago, Manitoba, my province, his province, received
in both transfer payments, the CHST and equalization payments, a
total of $1.951 billion.
1610
What is it in the next fiscal year starting in less than three
weeks, April 1? It will be $1.944 billion, a difference of $7
million. Let us put that $7 million into context. In the last
three years, as a result of lower interest rates brought about by
this government's fiscal policies, the Filmon government in the
province of Manitoba has realized savings of $135 million. The
province of Manitoba is doing quite well I would say to the hon.
member for Brandon—Souris.
Let us also put these transfer payments into further context. I
mentioned that the transfer payments will exceed $1.9 billion
starting April 1. That accounts for 36% of Manitoba's estimated
revenues. That is 50% above the national average and the highest
of the four western provinces.
I must admit it is really difficult to take criticism from a
representative of the Progressive Conservative Party that ran our
economy into the ground between 1984 and 1993. In the interest
of facts and in the interest of informing Canadians, the member
from Brandon—Souris owes us this piece of information about how
the province of Manitoba has been treated by this budget and
successive budgets over the last four years.
Mr. Rick Borotsik: Madam Speaker, I have a lot of faith
in the finance minister of the province of Manitoba. I believe
he has done an exceptional job over the last four years. He has
balanced his budget for four years. He has not raised any taxes
in the province of Manitoba and the economy is doing very well.
The reason I brought my example up was to make sure that the
Liberals recognize there are ways of reducing taxes in a budget
to make sure the economy is going to be improved.
I would like to quote the finance minister of Manitoba:
Providing Manitobans with the best health care possible has
always been and continues to be our top program priority.
Stefanson said: “Our
funding commitment to health care is 45% or almost $600 million
more than we spent in 1987—in contrast to the federal government
cutting health transfers 35% in the last three years”.
The proof lies in the pudding. Needless to say the hon. member
believes that the federal government is treating provincial
governments fairly. That is a head in the sand attitude because
I can give the member quotes from every premier and every finance
minister who say that is not the case. That is okay, the member
can hide his head in the sand.
The hon. member talks about how previous to 1993 the Progressive
Conservative government caused the problems for our country with
respect to deficits. I talked about the reason why the deficit
now no longer exists. It is because of policies that were put in
place in 1991-93. I can also say that I remember the Trudeau
years when deficits and debt were the trademark of the day. If
we want to talk about who put Canadians into this debt and
deficit position, they have to look no further than their own
history.
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton—Melville, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, I have two questions. It will only take several
moments to ask them.
I really appreciated the member's plea for more tax reduction
and increasing the personal exemption to $10,000. I
wholeheartedly agree with that. We desperately need that kind of
help for especially low income Canadians.
1615
The question I have relates to that in the sense that the
government has put in place a child care credit or tax reduction
that applies only for those who use care outside of the home. I
think this is a gross injustice. I cannot agree with it.
My concern is that this child care credit should apply to all
parents. They should not be forced to take their children
outside of the home. I was wondering if the member would agree.
The second question is in regard to agriculture. He made a big
point about agriculture and the fact that it was not addressed in
this budget. I agree with him. In fact agriculture will be
devastated by what this government has done.
In just one example, the CPP premium increase is going to hit
all Canadians but farmers are going to find that the price of
their produce, the things they have to put in, their input costs
into their crops and whatever, are going to increase because of
the CPP premium increase. It is going to add to all of their
costs, as it will for all Canadians.
I am wondering if he would agree that we need tax reduction,
especially in the area of agriculture. I know there needs to be
improvements to infrastructure, transportation and all this but
the tax increases, I hope he would agree, that have been
implemented by this government are going to hit agriculture very
hard.
Mr. Rick Borotsik: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the
question from the hon. member from Yorkton—Melville.
The first question with respect to day care, what we believe in
and obviously with the basic personal income tax exemption of
$10,000, we believe that sufficient dollars would then come back
into those individual's pockets who best know how to spend their
dollars, and in fact would allow them more dollars to have day
care for their individuals, whether it be in the home or whether
it be in licensed day centres.
However, back to agriculture, I could not agree more,
particularly with the CPP. If you are in fact a small business
or a self-employed individual, the contributions to CPP are twice
as much as what they would be if you had employer contributions.
Agriculturalists, farmers, obviously are going to be impacted
quite dramatically by this. It takes a substantial amount of
cash out of their own personal pockets to put into a CPP plan
which I am still not convinced, and have not been convinced by
government, is going to be there when in fact those individuals
are going to recover some of their investment from it in
benefits.
I agree, we agree, small business, personal income tax
deductions and small business tax, regressive payroll taxes
should be reduced, as by example in Manitoba and fortunately the
member from Winnipeg suggests that we should be looking at
Manitoba as being a benefactor from the federal government. The
fact is that Manitoba has benefited because of these types of
reductions to regressive payroll taxes.
* * *
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
there has been consultation among the parties and I think that
you will find unanimous consent for the following change to
standing order 95(2).
I move:
That when an item of Private Members' Business that is not
votable is proposed, the Member moving the item shall speak for
not more than 15 minutes. Thereafter, no Member shall speak for
more than 10 minutes for a period not exceeding 40 minutes. After
40 minutes or earlier, if no other Member rises in debate, the
Member moving the said item shall, if he or she chooses, speak
again for not more than 5 minutes and thereby conclude the
debate.
(Motion agreed to)
* * *
THE BUDGET
FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF MINISTER OF FINANCE
The House resumed consideration of the motion.
Mr. John Duncan (Vancouver Island North, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, I must say I have enjoyed this budget debate. We had a
certain amount of finger pointing. After all, the budget and the
exercise that goes into it is the single most important activity
carried out by government.
1620
How did we ever get where we are now after 30 years of running
unbalanced books basically? The last member was pointing fingers
at Prime Minister Trudeau's administration. If we look back to
that time and place, we see 14% annual increases in spending
throughout that mandate which was what got us started. We then
ended up with a Conservative administration that added to the
burden once again.
One has to wonder when we have the single most important
activity of government and we cannot get it right. Even though I
have been in this place since 1993, it still astounds me that we
ever arrived at where we are and are still paying the price.
Whoever was the architect back then should be ashamed.
I have two things to talk about today. I want to talk about the
budget in general and make some comments about the fisheries
specifically.
I am still at a loss today to say anything positive about the
budget that was brought down by the minister. For 30 years, as I
have already explained, Liberals and Tories abrogated their
primary responsibility which is to prioritize government
activities in spending in order to optimize the benefits to
Canadians. This obviously did not happen. This has led to the
taxpayer being penalized. They paid the penalty of balancing the
books which led to the ongoing penalty of Liberal debt costing
Canadian families $6,000 annually to service.
This is not the only legacy. We still have Canadian jobs and
economic opportunities that are being stifled which is continuing
to hamper social program spending. Canadians have clearly stated
what their priorities are: pay down the debt, reduce taxes, and
spending that is focused on things like health and education.
I and many of my colleagues have asked the question of many of
our constituents. Some of my constituents want to know why I am
asking such a common sense question. The answer is so common
sense that they wonder why I am asking the question. In a sense
I agree with them, but common sense seemed to be out the window
for 30 years in this place. Let us hope we never get back there
again. Maybe we are still there.
What does this budget do? It has 100% new spending, 0% debt
reduction and 0% tax relief. After 30 years the government
balanced the books on the backs of the taxpayers over the last
several years. In this budget it robbed those same taxpayers of
well-deserved tax relief and debt reduction.
Let me just talk about the department I am most familiar with in
this Parliament, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. This
was one of the most heavily cut government departments in the
last Parliament and it is ongoing. At the same time that costs
are being cut in fisheries, we have a crisis of unprecedented
proportions in the cod fishery on the east coast. We have salmon
disappearing on both coasts. We have unresolved issues with
Alaska on the west coast. We also have a huge lack of vital
information on many species on all three coasts.
How can we maintain, as the minister has done, that our prime
concern is conservation if we do not spend any money or devote
any resources to it?
The standing committee on fisheries travelled to both the east
coast and west coast. We have yet to go to the north coast. We
have heard from fishermen everywhere we have gone about the lack
of biologists and how appalling all that is. Yet, we seem to
have a healthy, in terms of numbers, bureaucracy in DFO in
Ottawa.
However, when an entrepreneurial fisherman wants to start up a
box crab or other new fishery, we do not have the DFO biology
resources to assist in the feasibility study. Everyone
recognizes and agrees that field enforcement has been shorted in
a major way.
1625
When fishermen complained about the DFO it was never about the
frontline workers who provided so much support. The frontline
workers were often the people who were familiar with the
community as well as the fisheries. They were located where the
action was. They tended not to be bureaucratized and were
promoted from within the ranks. They were effective in
galvanizing whole communities to assist in the stewardship of the
fishery resource.
With the poorly thought out cutbacks, they are no longer there.
It seems that the DFO has a leadership which cares more about
perpetuating its own self-importance than it does about the
people who really matter. The department does not seem to
realize that without fishermen to manage, it has no mandate.
Many fishermen have complained that the DFO is only interested
in supporting large companies and does not care about the
independent small businessman. This government may say that it
is more cost effective to have large companies fishing and that
individuals do not have enough of a profit margin to make them
viable. However, we do not think it is up to government to make
that kind of judgment.
If a person wants to try to set up a business, and if the
government has set up certain barriers in the way of studies that
have to be done, it is up to the government to assist those
individuals in meeting those requirements. It is not up to the
government to put up more barriers and create a Chinese maze for
approval seeking.
The DFO needs a new, strong mission statement which includes all
people. It needs a new vision which includes empowering lower
levels of the organization. Many of the lower level employees
are paranoid about making decisions because the decisions they
have made in the past have been countermanded so many times.
The DFO needs consistency and honesty at the uppermost levels
for without this the lower levels are paralyzed. People need
direct leadership in order to do their jobs in an enthusiastic
and creative fashion.
We all understand that cuts had to be made in order to fix the
fiscal mess of this and previous governments. What is now
required are measures to ensure that spending is prioritized so
we do not choke off the lifeblood of our nation.
We have heard that one of the new spending initiatives of the
Liberal government includes $40 million to something called
strengthening communities. I would think that hiring a few
biologists and allowing them to do their jobs and allowing local
fishermen to develop new fisheries would strengthen a community.
For every fisherman who is allowed to fish, other jobs are
created, such as crew and plant workers to process the fish. The
spin-off is wonderful and can be multiplied many times.
We do not need only a few large corporations doing the fishing
to make work for other people and to keep communities alive. In
fact, we keep hearing from fishermen that large companies can
ruin local communities by centralizing operations and by being
too remote from the realities of daily living.
I have heard from many groups and individuals who have attempted
to develop entrepreneurial opportunities, often with 100% of the
investment coming from private sources, who have been stymied and
frustrated by their inability to find one advocate within the
DFO, or DFO personnel question the economic viability and tell
them how to rig their boats for new fisheries when it is the
fishermen who should be determining viability.
DFO personnel should be worrying about fisheries management and
biology, not boat owner viability, particularly in the pioneer
fisheries, such as some of the offshore and outside 200 mile
limit fisheries which are being created.
1630
This government must reset its priorities. It must roll up its
sleeves and do real work in determining where money should be
spent and where it can be cut. When you toss around figures with
too many zeros after them, you lose your sense of reality. This
government has lost that sense. When we try to talk to a
government that has its nose up in the atmosphere where only
millions and billions make sense, we naturally become discouraged
and disillusioned. How can we relate to the government? We
cannot.
The government is too complacent by far. It needs to go out and
talk to the grassroots, those people without whom we would all be
out of a job. This government needs to pay back Canadian
taxpayers by delivering debt and tax relief. The Liberal
campaign promise was to dedicate half the budget surplus to debt
and tax relief.
There is no surplus in 1998 because the government spent it.
There is no debt reduction forecast because the government budget
wipes out the surplus for each of the next three years. The
Liberal election promise was quickly broken by a government with
no shame.
I am splitting my time with the member for West
Vancouver—Sunshine Coast so I will finish now.
If a government cannot keep its promises in regard to the most
important mandate it has, then why should it be trusted to keep
any of its promises?
Hon. Andy Mitchell (Secretary of State (Parks), Lib.):
Madam Speaker, I am pleased to have an opportunity to question
the hon. member on a very specific component of his speech. He
talked critically about the fact that we were spending money on
strengthening communities. I was quite surprised to hear him say
that.
One of the measures in the budget that my constituents were very
pleased with was the increase from $500 to $1,000 for the tax
exempt portion of income for volunteer firefighters.
The member may not be aware of it but in rural Canada, in
communities like Bracebridge, Gravenhurst and Parry Sound, fire
protection is provided by men and women who volunteer as
firefighters. Without that volunteerism, without the dedication
of those volunteers, we would not have the kind of fire
protection and safety we have in our communities.
It is positive and important for this government to recognize
that volunteerism by increasing the tax exemption by 100% from
$500 to $1,000. The recognition of those individuals is
important. It is critical and it strengthens our communities.
Why is the member against assisting those men and women who are
the volunteer firefighters in our rural communities?
Mr. John Duncan: Madam Speaker, there is nothing quite
like somebody putting words in your mouth. In terms of tax
relief measures and the kinds of measures that are quite generic,
those are very good things.
The member will not find a Reformer arguing that we should not
increase basic exemptions for items such as the one mentioned by
the member. In terms of strengthening communities, who can argue
against motherhood? We want to strengthen communities. My point
is that this government is doing things in an insensitive
fashion.
The government is hurting coastal communities in particular.
That was my point. The government's attempts to cut costs have
tended to take away from the field and centralize. As a
consequence rural and coastal communities, specifically in terms
of the fisheries file, have been very much damaged.
It is ongoing.
1635
This week we are talking about light stations on the coast. The
light stations on the west coast are more important to many rural
communities than are the post offices in Ontario communities for
example. They are much more important. If those light stations
were in Ontario, with as many Liberal members of Parliament as
there are in Ontario the government would not be doing what it is
doing to the light keepers on the B.C. coast. That is just one
tiny example, but the fisheries file has all kinds of them; what
has happened to our field personnel, our enforcement personnel
and our biologists.
Entrepreneurs cannot try to get anything done when it comes to
developing a new fishery. There is nobody there to be their
advocate when they talk to the Department of Fisheries and
Oceans. This is a big item. Thousands of jobs are going begging
in B.C. right now in shellfish aquaculture alone because of a
lack of people within DFO to be an advocate to either keep
existing operations going or to allow new entrepreneurs to do
their thing. It is very sad.
Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.):
Madam Speaker, it certainly is a pleasure to speak on this budget
debate. I am sure the Liberal members who had questions to ask
of my colleague will also have some to ask me when I am finished.
When the Liberals took office, Canadians were paying $125
billion a year in taxes. After five years of the Liberal
government in power, we are now paying $162 billion in taxes. By
the year 2000 we will be paying $173 billion in taxes according
to this latest budget. That is a $48 billion increase, $5,000
for every taxpayer in Canada.
When the Liberals took office, we were $500 billion in debt. A
lot of that was blamed on my colleagues from the Conservative
Party but the Liberals were in power before them. Between the
Liberals and the Tories it was $500 billion. Today one would
think from all these great speeches on the other side that we had
eliminated that debt. We have a deficit that is down to zero, or
so they say. The debt is at $583 billion. The Liberals have
increased that debt in their short term in office by $83 billion.
That is at a cost of $6,000 per year for every taxpayer.
The Liberals have the chequebook out again. They get the
deficit down to zero and they come up with $11 billion in new
spending. No tax relief and no debt repayment.
Like all other members, I was in my constituency last week going
from community to community. A Liberal member asked a question
about small communities. I was up in the Sunshine Coast in the
area of Sechelt. A great little business seminar was going on.
It was business opportunities. A lot of government departments
were there, both provincial and federal. They were giving out
information to small business. A lot of small businesses had
some great ideas which I thought we could use in this House.
One of the people at that conference who was with his wife
pulled me aside and told me about some of the things they were
concerned about. I asked him if he would mind writing them down
and faxing them to me on the weekend. I told him I would be
speaking on the budget and I would like very much to pass his
comments on to my colleagues in the House of Commons.
I would like to read some of the comments that the husband and
wife made. These people are in their retirement age. They state:
“Currently there is a lot of concern regarding planning for
retirement especially for taxpayers 50 to 60 years old due to the
uncertain changes to old age benefits. Taxpayers in this group
do not have the time to overhaul planning for their retirement
which has been based on long term legislation. Accordingly, now
that the budget has been balanced perhaps consideration could be
given to some other alternatives that would take into account the
time factor that is so critical to long term planning for
retirement”.
They talked about an old age pension phase-in to change the
entitlement. It is not a bad idea. It is being done in other
areas. They talk about age 56 to 65 in the year 2000, no changes
with benefits at 65. People of the age 46 to 55 now in the year
2000 will receive old age pension at 66. People of the age 36 to
45 in the year 2000 will receive old age pension at the age of
67. People now age 26 to 35 will receive old age pension at 68.
People age 12 to 25 in the year 2000 will receive old age pension
at 69. Under the age of 16 in the year 2000 people will receive
old age pension at the age of 70. Their attitude was that this
would scale it down and help balance the books a lot quicker than
what the government is doing now.
1640
There were other concerns that my constituents had. Their
comments to me were the constant delays in implementing increased
RRSP limits, allowing the self-employed to an expense of half
their CPP contribution to be accorded consistent treatment with
employed personnel. This is a great concern of a lot of the
senior citizens in my area and people who are self-employed.
Provide some relief for single income families who choose to
have one parent at home to raise children. There are many
responsible young parents who sacrifice much to have the mother
stay at home to raise their children because they understand the
importance of such a task. Our government needs to encourage this
endeavour with appropriate measures that give consideration to
some form of joint tax filing.
Consideration should be given to allow interest on RRSP loans as
an income tax deduction restricted to perhaps the interest paid
only in the year of contribution.
That is what people are thinking when we talk to them in our
constituencies. They are not all that thrilled that the deficit
is down. They expected when they elected this government that it
would get that deficit down. The message was very clear. It was
very clear to the Conservative party. It went from a great big
majority to two seats in Canada. It did not take a brain surgeon
to figure out that we should get the deficit down.
What has this government done for the debt? Nothing. It has
announced $10 billion in new spending programs. We have to look
at those programs and ask would the average Canadian not be
better with taxes lowered, with just a little bit more in their
paycheque. Let us let Canadians spend the money instead of
forming new government programs and new bureaucracies. Let us ask
this government what it is doing.
I want to talk a little bit about British Columbia. British
Columbia has been a contributor to Canada for many years, in
excess of what we raise in our province in taxes. We are very
happy to do that, to help Canada be a united country. But we ask
what has this government done in fisheries? My colleague our
fisheries critic has talked about that.
I can tell you that British Columbians are pretty upset with the
treatment and the respect they get when it comes to fisheries. I
can only hope when I see the comments about the number of people
being fired at fisheries on the east coast that they are ready to
swing the broom and the hatchet in British Columbia. Let us get
some action out there so we can get some employment in this area.
There is a harbour in Squamish that this government has been
collecting $200,000 a year in fees for as long as you can go on.
We have asked why the government is not dredging the harbour. For
those who are boaters, if you read the chart it says you can go
into the Squamish harbour with no problem, that there is lots of
depth. Well the silt has built up. If you were to try to go
into that harbour in high tide right now, you would likely go
aground and somebody could be seriously injured or even killed.
We have advised the ministry of that but it says there is no
money for it. Where is the money it collected? We know the
government is trying to download the harbours and I have no
disagreement with that as long as everyone does it fair and
square. But while we are waiting for that we should not have to
wait to dredge a harbour that is a danger to British Columbians
and tourists who will travel into that area.
We look at immigration in British Columbia. What is this
government doing in immigration? I asked a question in committee
last week about what it would cost to bring that department into
the 21st century with proper equipment and the answer given was
$100 million. An awful lot of money, but not when you consider
that there is $300 million being spent on welfare alone on people
who are coming into Canada and abusing our refugee system by
coming in from safe havens across the U.S. border and other
areas.
Those are the types of things British Columbians want to see
this government do something about. They want to look at the
transfer payments to British Columbia. I said that we pay our
fair share but we are suffering in health care because this
government has cut payments in those areas. It should be doing
more to assist and we should be getting more of our share back.
The infrastructure program is a political game with this
government. Everyone has their applications in but it is
amazing. I checked with my Reform colleagues. Not very many
infrastructure programs are being funded in the areas with Reform
members but the minister of fisheries has funding programs and
the provincial government has funding programs. They are playing
politics with the infrastructure program in British Columbia.
British Columbians are not happy about that, no matter what their
politics are. That program should be equally shared among all
British Columbians.
With regard to coast guard services, we are not getting our fair
share.
I see Liberal members laughing. It is not a funny matter. One
even sounds like a separatist. Only my colleague in the Senate
has ever talked about British Columbia being separatist.
1645
British Columbians are Canadians. They have supported Canada
quite happily over the years. But we want to know that British
Columbia is recognized here in Ottawa.
Premier W.A.C. Bennett, one of our long serving premiers, used
to say it is a 3,000 mile flight to Ottawa but it is 35,000 miles
back. That is the feeling still, unfortunately, of a lot of
British Columbians.
I came to this House in 1972 and I could give some of the same
speeches I made in 1972 right now with what the people in British
Columbia are thinking about some of the issues as they face
British Columbia. We want to make sure our voice is being heard.
It was one of the great issues in British Columbia during the
last election. That is why the Reform Party won the majority of
the seats and why they won the majority of seats in Alberta, and
why we are growing in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. It was because
people there knew that a grassroots party was listening to the
people, was bringing a message to Ottawa, and oh, will this place
be exciting after the next election when the Reform Party sweeps
Ontario and chases a lot of those Liberals home.
Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Madam Speaker, the
hon. member brings an interesting perspective on the issue of
fiscal policy to this House. As he mentioned, he was elected in
1972, I believe.
The process of deficit reduction has taken 15 years. Those are
not my words. Those are the words of the Leader of the
Opposition in the budget debate, that it has taken 15 years of
policies, including the GST, free trade, deregulation of
financial services, transportation and, I would add, the
elimination of the national energy program.
The Conservative government was able to reduce the deficit as a
percentage of GDP from 8% in 1984 to 5% in 1993 and reduce
program spending growth per year from 14% to 0% growth when the
Conservative government left office in 1993. I think the hon.
member should look back with some pride at his contribution at
that time and having contributed to deficit reduction and
policies that contributed to it and that were continued under
this government.
During the 1970s and 1980s, we saw significant debt growth, in
fact debt growth from zero in 1970 in Canada and in many
industrialized countries, including the U.S. Public opinion was
not in favour of reduction in social spending. Public opinion
ran contrary to the whole notion of attacking debts and deficits
during the late 1960s through to the early 1990s.
My question for the hon. member: As a member of a party that
professes to be focused on grassroots populism and on effectively
listening to the public and responding to whatever the public
wants, representing via a poll or whatever means that it has at
that time, as a Reformer, if he or if his party had had access to
the levers in the 1970s and 1980s when the public clearly did not
want reductions in social spending and when the public clearly
was not focused on deficit reduction, would he not, as a
corollary of that argument, have focused on and supported public
opinion at that time and would he not have perpetuated policies
effectively representative of the public at that time?
Mr. John Reynolds: Madam Speaker, I should remind the hon.
member that I was a member of the Conservative Party and left in
1977 when there were still reasonable budgets in this country. I
was not part of the party when it went through the great spending
program.
The hon. member asks me would I have spent that money and would
I have listened to the public. It was not the public they were
listening to, it was the professional spin doctors and pollsters
that have become such a professional part of this business of
politics for both the Liberals and the Conservatives.
If the hon. member were to go out and listen to the public and
watch the public, he would understand why in western Canada there
really is not any Conservative Party any more.
They stopped listening to the people.
1650
I can remember being at meetings in western Canada with members
of the Conservative Party who were friends of mine. They would
try and tell us that we did not understand, this is the way we
have to do it in Ottawa. I told them I did not understand them
because they were going to be kicked out of office. That is
exactly what happened.
It is the people in this country. We can stand up in this House
and make all the speeches we want. I have been in and out of
this business a few times. I had talk shows and radio shows in
between. If we are not out listening to the people we will not
understand. That is why there are 60 Reformers here and why
there will be more in Ontario after the next election.
The people of Canada told the Conservative Party what they were
doing in the years it was in office by taking the party from one
of the largest majorities in Canadian history to the lowest
number of seats that any major party has ever held in Canadian
history.
Mr. Wayne Easter (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Fisheries and Oceans, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I will be sharing
my time with the member for Vaughan—King—Aurora.
I am most pleased to participate in this debate on this budget.
My seatmate, the member for Vancouver Quadra, in his response put
it quite appropriately when he said and I quote “On the budget
it is a defining moment in our history”. It is indeed a
defining moment in our history.
After almost three decades of deficit financing that clearly
handcuffed our ability to govern in the interests of communities,
people and the nation as a whole, we now have a balanced budget
and have greater flexibility in making decisions in the future.
I heard the remarks of the members for Vancouver Island North
and West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast earlier. They talked about
their concerns about dredging and some other concerns they had in
fisheries and oceans. I would agree. There are concerns in that
area. Now that we are in a position that we are able to balance
the budget, I would hope that they would be onside in terms of
spending in some of those areas instead of giving tax deductions
to the wealthy.
Gaining this position has not been easy. The last four budgets
from a personal point of view have not been easy, especially in
the region where I come from, Atlantic Canada and in rural areas.
In getting to the position of balancing the budget, rural
Canadians have had to share a greater part of the burden than
people in other areas.
Now we have accomplished our goal. We have a foundation which
we can build on in the future. I have been accused of a lot of
things. On this, I will clearly say that it is good to see a
real Liberal budget again.
I quote from Giles Gherson of the Ottawa Citizen on
February 25. He said:
How better to define Liberalism for the 1990s than closing the
widening income gap between rich and poor by giving the country's
poorest people not just a tax cut, but help to get the training
needed for high-skilled, high-paying jobs of the new knowledge
economy.
What he clearly says in that statement is the direction that we
have gone in this budget. We have balanced the budget. We have
targeted more to the low income people. It has been called an
education budget in terms of looking at the future. It goes in a
very different direction than members opposite seem to want to go
with greater and greater tax relief for the wealthy instead of
looking at all the people of this great country.
1655
In the general sense, this budget is an education budget with
its emphasis on youth, education and training and a lot of
initiatives. I just want to list a few: financial assistance to
students through the Canada millennium scholarship foundation and
the Canada study grants; support for advanced research and
graduate students through several granting councils; helping to
manage student debt loads through tax relief for interest on
student loans and improvements to the Canada student loans
program; helping Canadians to upgrade their skills through tax
free RRSP withdrawals for lifelong learning and tax relief for
part time students; encouraging families to save for education
through a Canada education savings grant; supporting youth
employment through EI premium holiday for youth employment and
youth at risk; and, connecting Canadians to information and
knowledge through the SchoolNet and community access programs.
Those are measures targeted at the people of tomorrow, the
people who are going to build this country into the future. That
is the kind of forward-looking budget and forward-leaning
government that this government on this side of the House is.
Such measures show foresight and are indeed building for the
future.
In my province of Prince Edward Island the increase in the cash
floor of the CHST from $11 billion to $12.5 billion is extremely
important. I know others have argued that it is not enough. It
is never enough, but the fact that we are increasing the cash
portion of the transfer means a lot more to Prince Edward Island
than to some of the other provinces. Because of our smaller
population base, just transferring tax points to Prince Edward
Island as we have traditionally done would not be as important to
us as is the transferring of the cash itself. That is extremely
important to the health care issue in the province of Prince
Edward Island.
One member opposite said there was no tax relief in this budget.
He is clearly wrong. I believe there is $7 billion of tax
relief over the next three years to those who need it most. That
is the difference between Liberals and Reformers. We are
targeting it to those people who need it the most, not those who
need it the least.
The number of taxpayers in Prince Edward Island who are going to
benefit from tax relief will be about 70,000 people; that is
97.2% of taxpayers in Prince Edward Island who will benefit from
the tax relief measures outlined in this budget. That is good
news.
I should make some other points on tax relief in part because of
members opposite who are trying to leave the illusion that there
is no tax relief. There is an additional $850 million to the
child tax benefit program. The child care expense deduction will
go from $5,000 to $7,000 for children under the age of seven.
There is the new caregiver credit. There is the Canadian
opportunities strategy. I do not want to take a lot of time on
this but the list goes on and on.
What about rural areas? I do not mind putting on the record
that I still have a grave concern about cost recovery and where
it is going to lead in the long term. I would hope that in
future budgets and in future government initiatives that we can
move to reduce the cost recovery measures. I am concerned that
cost recovery over the long term can kill the very economy that
we are depending on for growth with the cost recovery fees, in
particular in agriculture and fisheries.
I put out a caution that I would have liked to have seen more
done in this budget, especially in the area of cost recovery.
In terms of the budget working for rural Canada, we ought to
recognize that many of Canada's most important industries, such
as agriculture, energy, mining, forestry and fishing, are based
in the rural communities.
1700
These primary industries account for almost half of Canada's
exports. Canada's improved financial situation helps to keep
interest rates low, encouraging small businesses, farmers,
fishermen and others to invest in rural areas. That is one thing
that certainly a balanced budget will help us with.
The group that will benefit most from the 1998 budget initiative
to allow self-employed Canadians to deduct the cost of health and
dental insurance premiums is rural Canada. That is a very
important initiative, especially for the farming community.
The 1998 budget confirms the four year, $20 million Canadian
rural partnership initiative. This initiative will support
innovative programs to help rural Canadians find community
solutions to challenges such as maintaining good soil and water
and charting a successful course in a rapidly changing global
economy.
In conclusion, the budget has foresight. It is balanced and it
is leaning and looking toward building for the future in both
rural Canada and especially among our young people.
[Translation]
Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien (Frontenac—Mégantic, BQ): Madam Speaker,
listening to the hon. member for Malpeque, the Parliamentary
Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, one is tempted
to take him seriously. However, his partisanship clouds his
thinking. According to a basic law of physics, for every action
there is an equal and opposite reaction. In preparing his budget,
against the revenues the Minister of Finance also wrote a list of
expenditures.
I would like the hon. member for Malpeque, who primarily
represents middle-class Canadians from Prince Edward Island, to
comment on the 10% increase provided for in this estimates for
the Senate.
A $45 million budget for 104 senators. This represents roughly
$450,000 a year per senator. Given the amount of work they do in
a year, one might say they are paid a very high hourly rate.
I would also like the member for Malpeque to tell us what he
thinks of the 12% increase in the budget for the Governor General
of Canada and his staff. During last week's break, I asked more
than 250 of my constituents to name the governor general and not
one of them knew who he was. I told them he nonetheless cost them
$12 million a year. Yet no one knew his name.
I would like our colleague from Malpeque, who with his wife runs
a successful dairy business, whose dairy herd has a good yield,
why there is absolutely nothing for the farm community in this
budget he just praised, a so-called forward-looking budget.
What is left for agriculture after the WGTA, which provided a
grain transportation subsidy for Quebec and the maritime
provinces, was eliminated, after the subsidy for industrial milk
producers was phased out over five years and after almost all
research stations were shut down? Nothing.
Back home in PEI, he will boast about this budget for the
future. In that sense, the mind of the Parliamentary Secretary to
the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans is clouded by partisanship
because there is nothing in this budget for the middle class,
which really needs tax relief.
1705
[English]
Mr. Wayne Easter: Madam Speaker, the hon. member started
by saying that it was a relationship of physics. I was wondering
where he was going in terms of his physics lesson in the
beginning.
In terms of the three last points he made including the feed
freight assistance program, yes, they were cut in the previous
budgets, but the fact is that we paid funds to compensate
producers. Now they have been able to build some additional
industries because of the money we put into those areas including
his home province of Quebec.
The dairy subsidy is one of the benefits, and he knows it, of
the supply management system in Canada. When that subsidy was
dropped over a period of time, farmers were still able to get a
return on their cost of production plus a fair return on their
labour investment. He should look at the number of dairy
producers in his home province of Quebec that benefit from that
kind of scheme.
In terms of his point on research, the fact is that with our
matching initiatives we have been able to considerably increase
the funding going into research.
If the member would have held meetings in his home province in
terms of how much Canada as a nation was transferring to Quebec,
he might have seen some better discussions in terms of those
meetings.
Mr. Maurizio Bevilacqua (Vaughan—King—Aurora, Lib.):
Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to have an opportunity to
address the House on this historic occasion. When I first came
to the House of Commons as a member of Parliament almost 10 years
ago, I could not have predicted that one day we would be speaking
of a balanced federal budget. No one could have. At that time
deficits had become a permanent part of our political culture.
Since I moved to Canada in the early 1970s our country never
witnessed a balanced budget. Deficits were the reality of my
generation. Younger generations grew up with them. It is the
reality we lived with. This is a discouraging fact. The deficit
was always a dead weight around our nations leg, slowing us down,
holding us back.
The deficit robbed the government of its freedom to act in the
best interest of Canadians. It clouded our vision and limited
our horizons.
In my first term as a member of Parliament the only thing that
was more discouraging than the existence of the deficit was the
former government's failure to control it. Every year at budget
time Canadians were presented with an impressive sounding plan to
reduce the deficit. Then year after year after year the deficit
would rise and our faith in the government's fiscal policies
would fall.
Finally Canadians ran out of patience and voted for change. When
the government took office it inherited a deficit of
approximately $42 billion. It was an overwhelming challenge but
the government did not shrink from it. From the outset the
Minister of Finance brought forward budgets based on credible
plans to control and reduce government spending. By sticking to
these plans the government was able to slowly wrestle the deficit
to the ground.
The Minister of Finance deserves our congratulations for
succeeding in a task that has defeated many of his predecessors.
However, let me echo what he said in his budget speech on
February 24. “Canadians can be very proud today. This is their
victory”.
Since the government took office Canadians have been key players
in the budget making process. The public prebudget consultation
introduced by the government gave every citizen an opportunity to
speak directly to the government on this issue. Individuals and
groups responded with enthusiasm. They came forward with their
proposals for what should be in the federal budget.
Last year I participated in the prebudget consultations. The
finance committee held public hearings from Vancouver to St.
John's.
These were complemented by prebudget town hall meetings held by
members of Parliament in communities throughout the nation.
1710
As a result, last year's exercise was the most extensive
prebudget consultation to date. On behalf of the finance
committee I would like to express our warmest and sincerest
gratitude to the thousands of Canadians who made insightful
contributions. Many of their thoughts, ideas and recommendations
were addressed very clearly and precisely in the 1998 budget.
The people of Canada spoke out in a loud and clear voice. They
told us that they want balance; not just a balanced budget but a
balance in government policies, in its goals and in its results.
The government has listened and it has acted. The budget is the
response. The 1998 budget responds to the expectations of
Canadians.
Let us consider the following points. The government has
eliminated a deficit which has been a priority for Canadians for
many years. It has put in place a mechanism to start paying down
the debt, which many have identified as the next challenge that
government must attack. The government has taken some major
steps toward tax relief. It has invested funds in certain key
areas guaranteed to secure the maximum advantage for the
resources available.
The budget is a turning point. This is the year we stop
borrowing from our children. This is the year we start giving
them something back. Instead of mortgaging their future we are
now helping them to build their future.
With the Canadian opportunities strategy we are introducing a
comprehensive approach which will ensure that all Canadians have
access to an education. This is the cornerstone of our
government's commitment to ensuring the future prosperity of this
great nation.
Let us make no mistake. Getting an education is crucial. It
will decide whether young Canadians will work as active players
in the knowledge economy or they will be pushed to the sidelines.
The Canadian opportunities strategy is the key to a bright and
rewarding future. It includes measures to help those who are
currently students, graduates coping with student loans, the
worker seeking to renew his or her skills, parents and
grandparents saving to pay for students' education,
post-graduates and others working in scientific and medical
research, young people facing challenges in joining the
workforce, and children in communities trying to gain access to
the Internet.
I am personally very pleased to see the emphasis that has been
placed on helping Canada's youth. It is tangible evidence of our
commitment to Canada's future.
The budget contains other strategic targeted investments. For
example, to help families with child care expenses the budget
proposes to increase the limit on the child care expense
deduction. For Canadians providing care for the elderly or
disabled family members the budget proposes a new caregiver
credit which will reduce federal taxes by up to $400.
Self-employed Canadians, owners and operators of small
businesses will now be able to deduct premiums for health and
dental insurance against their business income.
At the same time the government is moving forward in key areas.
During last year's prebudget consultation Canadians told us that
they support a measured approach to tax relief. They understood
that as we enter a new era of balanced budgets no steps should be
taken which might jeopardize the hard won victory over the
deficit.
Therefore the vast majority of people who participated in the
consultations agreed that in the initial stages tax relief
measures should focus on Canadians in greatest need. That is
what we have done. The government has taken measures to increase
the basic income tax exemption. They will mean that 400,000 low
income Canadians will no longer have to pay taxes. Another 4.6
million people will see their taxes drop as a result of these
changes.
The budget also eliminates the 3% general surtax in its entirety
for individuals with incomes up to $50,000. The general surtax
will also be reduced for those with incomes between $50,000 and
about $65,000.
Taken together, these tax relief measures will amount to a
saving of approximately $7 billion for Canadians over the next
three years. In all, 14 million low and middle income Canadians,
90% of all taxpayers, will benefit.
This is only the first step. In the years ahead as resources
permit, the government is committed to extending tax relief to
other Canadians.
1715
Finally, the budget addresses a third concern shared by a large
number of Canadians: reducing the national debt. In the years
ahead the government will continue to include a $3 billion
contingency reserve in its budgets to prepare for unforeseen
developments. If as was the case in recent years that reserve is
not needed, it will go directly to paying down the debt.
At the same time, our government will continue paying down its
market debt, the funds it has to borrow on financial markets.
Already this year the government has paid down almost $13 billion
of this debt.
For these reasons and many more, it is fair to describe this
budget as an historic budget. Not only does a balanced budget
represent something no other government has accomplished in 30
years, more importantly, it was done without destroying Canada's
social safety net.
That has been the genius of the government's budgets. They have
always combined fiscal responsibility with social responsibility.
By doing so the government has ensured that Canadians will leave
future generations with the legacy of expanding opportunities
rather than one of high taxes and escalating debt.
There is no question in my mind that Canadians believe that
tomorrow will be better than today.
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Madam Speaker, I
heard the member opposite say that this budget focused on
Canadians in greatest need and that the prebudget consultations
were extensive. He also mentioned that all Canadians will have
access to post-secondary education. I really disagree with those
statements.
I remember the prebudget hearings that were held in Vancouver,
where I come from. I can say that the people at those hearings
had serious and sharp disagreements with the priorities of the
government.
The hon. member said that the budget has been brought forward
without destroying the social safety net. I would suggest that
the evidence shows that the social safety net has already been
destroyed by the Liberal government and the billions of dollars
that have been taken out of the transfers to provincial
governments.
I want to ask one question on education. The member says that
there will be access for all Canadians. We have heard that the
millennium fund and the $2.5 billion that has been provided will
assist only 7% of students in this country. That is certainly
not access for all to post-secondary education.
The child tax benefit that the Liberals have made so much about
has not been indexed for inflation. It will not begin until
1999. And it will amount to a measly 80 cents a day for poor
kids in poor families.
I would ask the hon. member to explain to the people of Canada
how he believes this budget is helping those who are most in
need.
Mr. Maurizio Bevilacqua: Madam Speaker, as a member of
Parliament I have travelled extensively throughout the country,
not only as a member of the finance committee but also during the
years when we were dealing with social security review. Many of
the measures that have been announced in this budget actually
address the concern cited by Canadians may I say from coast to
coast to coast in relationship to key areas.
I do want to go back to the issue raised in reference to the
Canadian opportunities strategy. There is no question that it
does include measures that will benefit those who are currently
students, graduates who are coping with student loans and workers
who are trying to upgrade their skills.
Also there is the registered education savings plan and the
greater flexibility therein and the government's contribution to
postgraduate students who are working in scientific and medical
research. The hon. member ought to say that we are investing
precisely in the areas she has stated.
1720
I can say with a great deal of certainty that in many quarters
this budget is being dubbed at times as the education budget, as
a budget that speaks to the development of human resources in our
country. When we look at the amount of funding that has been
directed toward those areas, the member must admit that students
are much better off today than they were prior to the budget. We
have to have a sense of fairness in addressing this particular
budget as it relates to the quality of life that students will
have as a result of the measures.
I can honestly say it addresses some of the concerns I had many
years ago when I was sitting in the opposition benches about the
various cuts the then Conservative government was imposing on
youth programs. I am really glad to see that the government has
highlighted youth as a major issue that we need to make great
investments in.
On the question of transfers to the provinces, the hon. member
knows that we raised the floor to $12.5 billion, as much as the
national forum on health said that we should. We followed up on
that.
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.): Madam Speaker,
I will be splitting my time with my colleague from Calgary—Nose
Hill.
It gives me great pleasure to speak on this budget. As
environment and Senate critic for the official opposition, I will
be addressing both of those issues in turn.
One of the new spending initiatives outlined in the budget
includes new spending for climate change. Before 1997 the
Liberals spent over $100 million in direct funding each year to
address climate change. The last budget provided an additional
$20 million per year over the next three years. We are now up to
$120 million. This budget provides another $50 million per year
over the next three years, bringing the budget for climate change
up to $170 million a year.
The government is muddling through on this issue. First, it
fails to address the real agreement. It knew that this issue was
coming down the pipe. It had been coming for many years. Yet
this government failed during Kyoto. It had the opportunity to
set up consultations beforehand to go to Kyoto as other countries
did with a plan in mind. It failed to do that. The government
failed to do its homework and show Canadians the various
implications of the targets that it was about to sign.
The provinces have to be onside for any global agreement on
climate change within Canada. What did our government do? It
consulted with the provinces beforehand and then immediately
dismissed the provinces and settled for a level that was 6% more
stringent than the provinces had agreed to. It is the provinces
that are going to have to implement this deal. What a nifty way
to start out on a deal; alienate one of the partners you are
trying to work with.
To show where we are, the government agreed to levels 6% lower
than the 1990 levels for climate change. Picture where we are
now. We are already 13% above the 1990 levels.
Now the government says we are going to go 6% below that target
in the next 10 or 12 years. Collectively 13% plus 6%, we have to
change 19% over the next 10 or 12 years.
1725
This is not fearmongering, but to give people an idea of what
that 19% means, to reach those levels we could take all Canadian
light cars and trucks off the road. I do not think we want to do
that. Or we could remove 90% of the commercial trucks and air,
marine and rail transportation. Or we could eliminate the
heating in all of our homes, all of our commercial buildings and
all natural gas distribution. Or we could shut down
three-quarters of our fossil fuel power generation.
That is the level this government agreed to in Kyoto. The
problem is how we are going to get there. There is no plan. This
government has not put forward a plan. Look at the players. It
is every Canadian. It is the provinces. It is industry. It is
all of us combined, yet there is no plan.
Throw $170 million at it. That is the answer. That simply will
not wash.
Instead of consulting Canadians on the implications of the deal
and working together to find common ground to develop a strategy,
this government has a half-baked idea of getting 26 Order of
Canada members together so that they can express their feelings.
That is going to get us a long way.
Where is the plan? That is the bottom line. I would hope that
with the $170 million we will see a plan from this government
over the next few months. Then both sides of this House can see
where we are going with it, work with the provinces, work with
all Canadians so that we can solve this problem.
While I have the opportunity I would also like to touch on
endangered species. Bill C-65 on endangered species died on the
order paper at the last election.
There were a number of concerns with that legislation. I have
had meetings with various provincial environment ministers, and
industry and environmental groups. I would hope that the minister
is doing the same thing. The legislation was so flawed that even
many Liberals on the other side of the House would not have been
able to vote for it.
I hope those concerns will be addressed in a new bill dealing
with endangered species that would come forward probably at the
earliest next fall. We all want to work together to have good
endangered species legislation which protects the species but
also works well for Canadians.
One of the major flaws with Bill C-65 was the lack of private
property rights. There has to be a mechanism to deal with
private property rights. There has to be a compensation mechanism
so that if people have something on their land they are not
basically thrown off their land, they can be compensated and move
forward.
There is another issue which comes very much to the fore. It
has come from a number of groups I have met with. The
legislation has to be at arm's length from politicians. We
cannot get at it. The example I will use comes from the last
election when the cod fishery was opened up on the east coast
just before the election. It was an issue that was just there to
catch votes. Any endangered species legislation has to be at
arm's length so that we as politicians cannot do that. I am not
sure what the mechanism is but there has to be a mechanism that
allows a relationship so that any political party cannot get at
it to play with or manipulate the system.
There also has to be clear federal-provincial guidelines. The
old legislation basically went into provincial jurisdiction. This
was a major problem with most of the provinces. With the
citizen's right to sue, this was a concern where third parties
had the ability to sue. There were major concerns with the
legislation.
I would hope legislation that is possibly going to be introduced
in the fall will address these issues and that it will be
legislation we can all support.
Finally in my portfolio I deal with the Senate.
Some members opposite may say that is the other house and we
cannot deal with it. There is one way we can. Our very first
vote, vote one of the estimates is the Senate. It is the Senate
appropriation. It is the Senate's money. This year the Senate
has asked for $44,691,000 which is $4 million more than it had
last year, a 10% raise. I would challenge anyone to look at the
budget and justify why other departments would require a 10%
increase. I do not think they do. A few departments would have
that. I am not on a witch hunt. I am simply looking for
accountability.
1730
Something happened for the first time in the history of Canada
during the last Parliament. Through the public works committee
this House passed a resolution to send a letter to the Senate
that requested the Senate finance committee to come before the
House of Commons to explain its expenses. The Senate refused to
do that. We have another House that is unaccountable. That is
the point we should be dealing with. We appropriate the Senate's
funds so we should have the ability to scrutinize the Senate's
budget.
I hope this government in its budget will not only just throw
money at issues like climate change, I hope it will involve
Canadians and the provinces, and that we have legislation we
could all support at the end of the day.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to add some comments on the
budget. As the official opposition's social policy critic I look
at the budget in terms of how it will affect average individual
Canadians and their families.
As we all know, our federal government has lived on borrowed
money every single year for the last 30 years. I ask Canadians
watching this debate did you as a regular Canadian run your
family finances that way? Did you borrow more and more money
every single year for the last 30 years? What if you had done
that? What shape would you be in now?
That is about the shape our federal government is in after its
members have been such poor stewards and fiscal managers. Now we
have a federal debt of $583 billion. That is a mortgage on our
children. Every single year they have to pay interest on that
debt. That is money they will not have to look after their own
security. If we add provincial debts, even though five provinces
have balanced their budgets in years past, the total debt of
Canadians is $900 billion. Because of that each Canadian family
of four owes $77,000 on the federal debt alone.
I ask Canadians, suppose the federal government took out a
$77,000 mortgage on your house and expected you to make the
monthly payments. That is exactly what has been done. Annual
interest payments of $45 billion are made every year by Canadians
on the federal mortgage. The average family of four pays $6,000
each and every year as its share of interest on the national
debt. That has to come out of taxes. There is no money growing
on trees yet.
I ask Canadians watching this debate what you and your family
could do with an extra $6,000 every single year. Nearly
one-third of total government spending goes down the drain to pay
interest. That would be enough to pay for the total federal
government support for all our important social services, for
health, for education, for welfare, for equalization and for old
age security.
That is how much money we give to our lenders every year just in
interest payments.
1735
Because we have to pay so much each and every year in interest
on our monstrous national mortgage this is what has happened to
the transfers to support health care, education and welfare.
In 1994 the government supported those important programs to the
tune of $19.3 billion. In 1995 it slipped to $18.6 billion. In
1996 it slipped to $14.9 billion. In 1997 it slipped to $12.5
billion. That is what has happened to the government's support
for the programs which it has pretended to protect.
Since the government took office interest on the debt increased
by $7.5 billion a year. It is no accident that the same
government has reduced health and social transfers to the
provinces by $7 billion. Interest goes up and social funding
goes down.
If an individual has a credit card balance or a bank loan they
have to pay finance charges. Those dollars are taken away from
discretionary spending. They are taken away from saving for
emergencies. They are taken away from the amount each of us has
to educate our children. They are taken away from the amount
each of us can put away for retirement.
In the same way our enormous national mortgage and the interest
we must pay on it every year limits the social security which our
citizens can expect.
We have seen that happen. I have just talked about it. We have
seen $3.3 billion a year cut from EI benefits. We have lost $7
billion from the health care, education and welfare programs.
What has that led to? It has led to hospital closures and longer
waiting lists. Now the government is making a big deal about
home care. I guess there has to be home care because there is no
hospital care. Of course there is no money to fund home care.
Students are facing rising tuition fees and high levels of debt.
There is less security for families.
What will happen when another recession hits, as it inevitably
will? There is a business cycle. This will require an increase
in social spending. Where will that money come from?
What will happen when interest rates rise? They are at historic
lows. They will not stay that way forever.
Lower debt is the key to social security, both for us today and
for our children and our grandchildren, but the government has no
serious plan to tackle the mortgage which we have burdened our
children with.
Not only has Liberal and Tory gross mismanagement of Canada's
fiscal house for decades imperilled the security and social
services to protect Canadians, their insatiable grasping for more
and more tax revenues is impoverishing our citizens. The average
Canadian family has suffered a $3,000 drop in real income since
the Liberals took office. Canadian taxpayers must start paying
taxes at under $6,500 a year of income. It is less than $12,000
for a family of four.
How many people do we know who can live comfortably on $6,500 a
year? Anything they make after that the government starts taking
out of their pocket.
The average Canadian family spends more on taxes, about $21,000
a year, than on food, shelter and clothing combined, which is
about $17,000. Since 1961 families have spent less on shelter,
food and clothing. What they pay in taxes has nearly doubled
over the same time period. It is brutal taxation. People are
not able to keep enough of their own money to meet basic needs
and yet every year the government wants more.
1740
I quote from a recent study by the Vanier Institute of the
Family: “Because expenditures on basic necessities take a larger
share of the monthly budget for lower income families, relatively
little room is left for other items which can be very important
for the health and well-being of our family members”.
The Liberals in their last budget made much of child poverty and
how they were going to attack it. Liberal budgets have caused
child poverty. Liberals should be hanging their head in shame.
The same study found that families need an average of 76.8 weeks
of employment to pay for all of their expenses. Of course, there
are only 52 weeks in a year. What happens is that many families
become dependent on various income security programs to survive.
Inflation and increasing tax bites are leaving even that security
in tatters. The value of the child tax benefit declines every
year. The refundable GST credit declines in value every year.
Personal taxes payable creep up steadily every year. These
stealth taxes fall most heavily on the working poor.
The government makes much of the tiny bit of tax reduction
thrown into this budget but the facts are that over four years
total tax relief will be $6.3 billion but bracket creep over the
same period of time will bring in $8 billion, a net tax increase
of $1.7 billion. Only a Liberal could call a $1.7 billion net
tax increase tax relief.
Families and Canadians must have tax relief. They must have a
sensible determined plan to get rid of this mortgage on our
country. Because neither of these things were done in this
budget, I will not be supporting the budget in the vote tonight.
Mr. Roy Cullen (Etobicoke North, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I
would like to put a question to the member for Calgary—Nose Hill
which she may or may not want to answer. I do not mean to pry
but I was wondering whether she has ever had a mortgage on a
home, her own home.
I had the good fortune of owning a home in Canada. When I
bought my first home in the late 1970s I had a mortgage of
$50,000. Frankly, I thought I would have to declare personal
bankruptcy within the first or second month. However, in another
six months to a year I looked at my mortgage and it was suddenly
fairly manageable. I had not become obsessed with the mortgage
and life went on.
I do not want to treat the member's remarks about dealing with
the debt facetiously. I am all for dealing with the debt, but I
think there is a danger of becoming obsessed with it.
I wonder if the member would answer my question, although I
would understand if she declined.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: Madam Speaker, the mortgage on our
country is not backed up by any asset. The mortgage on our
country is simply and solely money that our children owe. We
have a situation where we have consumed $583 billion that we did
not pay for. Now we are simply loading it on our children's
credit cards and telling them to pay the interest every year and
maybe sometime somebody will get around to paying down the debt.
For this member to suggest this is in any way analogous to
buying a house shows how very little the Liberals understand the
terrible injustice that has been done to our children.
I would just point out to Canadians watching this debate that
this is the kind of frivolity with which the Liberals treat the
mortgage that has been put on our children's future. It is not
backed up by any asset and not fairly incurred.
Hon. Andy Mitchell (Secretary of State (Parks), Lib.):
Madam Speaker, there are two points that I would like to make to
the hon. member.
1745
First of all, she talks about taxpayers. She is right to talk
about taxpayers. They are an important part of Canada. In fact,
there was $7 billion worth of tax relief in this budget. What
this member and what her party do not talk about are those
Canadians who are not taxpayers: the disabled who are unable to
work; seniors who are living in poverty; Canadians who are unable
to find work for whatever reason. Those 10 million plus
Canadians in this society who are not taxpayers deserve the
interest of this government as much as Canadian taxpayers.
Second, and I will be very brief here, it was interesting that
the member, in talking about transfers to the provinces, failed
to bring up the fact of equalization and the fact that
equalization payments have actually increased. Do you know why I
think she may not have brought it up? Because her party's
platform in the last election called for the absolute gutting of
these transfer payments, of these equalization payments, so that
our poorer provinces, the provinces where access to basic
services are important and need the support of equalization,
would be disadvantaged. That party would simply do away with it.
So I ask the question: Why would she not talk about
equalization payments and her party's determination to gut them?
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: Madam Speaker, the Liberal member
opposite has a lot of nerve to talk about gutting when this is a
party that has cut $7 billion from support for health care and
education. That is gutting.
What we have done in our program is to say that equalization
must go to the poorest provinces. Remember, equalization does not
come from the federal government. It goes from have provinces to
have not provinces. It has nothing to do with federal government
spending.
Let us talk about what this government has done for seniors and
the unemployed.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I am afraid the time
has expired.
Mr. Roy Cullen (Etobicoke North, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I
am pleased to share my time with the member for Ahuntsic.
I guess the member opposite has had a mortgage and is still
alive and well and unfortunately she missed the point of my
question.
I am very pleased and honoured to be part of a very historic
moment because our federal government budget will be balanced for
the first time in almost 30 years. We have achieved this with
balance and with determination. We have not been slashing and
burning. We have been listening to Canadians. This balanced
budget could not have been achieved without the support and with
sacrifices from many Canadians. The effort has been worth it.
A balanced budget means no new borrowing by the Government of
Canada. We can now begin to pay down our public debts. We can
reduce the tax burden of Canadians and we can make important and
strategic investments in our health care system and in providing
Canadians with access to the knowledge and skills that will be
necessary for the jobs of the 21st century.
Our federal budget will be balanced for 1998, 1999 and 2000.
This is the first time in almost 50 years that the federal
government will have balanced its books for three years in a row.
That is why I am pleased to be part of this historic moment.
Some, including members of the official opposition, call for
more departmental and program budget cuts. Certainly there will
always be room to increase efficiencies and make sure that
programs are still relevant.
I would like to highlight that by the end of the year 2000
federal program spending in relation to GDP or the size of our
Canadian economy will be at the lowest level in 50 years. That
is quite an achievement. Over the next two years the percentage
of our federal debt in relation to the GDP, the size of our
Canadian economy, will drop from 72% to 63%. It will decline
very quickly in the years following.
1750
We have started the very important process of paying down the
public debt and we will continue to do so. As my colleague
pointed out, so far this year $13 billion of market debt has
already been paid down.
In this budget the Minister of Finance is providing $7 billion
in tax relief to Canadians. When members opposite say there is
no tax relief, please, there is $7 billion in tax relief. In
terms of new spending initiatives, 80% of our new spending
initiatives reflect two of the highest priorities of Canadians,
access to knowledge and skills and increased funding for health
and education through increased transfers to the provinces.
The key to jobs and growth in the years ahead is knowledge and
skills. The Canadian opportunities strategy will help prepare
Canadians for this rapidly changing world. The Canadian
opportunities strategy acts on seven fronts: one, to help
students in financial need to cope with rising costs; two, to
increase assistance for advanced research and graduate students;
three, it helps individuals repaying student loans, particularly
those in need; four, it helps Canadians upgrade their skills
throughout their working lives; five, it helps families save for
their children's education; six, it encourages employers to hire
young Canadians and help young people make the transition to
work; and seven, it helps bring the benefits of information
technology into more classrooms and communities across Canada.
A very important component of the Canadian opportunities
strategy is a Canada millennium scholarship foundation. Canada
millennium scholarships will be awarded to more than 100,000 full
and part time students each year over the next 10 years. This
initiative will level the playing field or begin to level the
playing field for low and middle income individuals who
demonstrate academic merit.
I was very pleased also to see more support for research in
Canada. The increased funding to three granting councils will
complement very well the $800 million Canada foundation for
innovation which our government launched last year. As a nation,
we must invest increasingly in both the public and the private
sectors in research, development and in our people. Our federal
government, as the fiscal capacity permits, is demonstrating this
commitment.
Many conscientious students in my riding come to my office with
problems paying off their students loans, so I am very pleased to
see the improvements in the Canada student loans program that
were announced in this budget. These measures include income tax
relief for interest charges on student loans and the extension of
loan repayment periods.
Changes to RRSP provisions, the new Canada education savings
grant and an increase in the limits of contributions to the
registered education savings plans will provide greater
opportunities for adults to participate in lifelong learning and
for them to save for their children's future education.
This budget allocates a further $850 million to enrich the
Canada child tax benefit, a further investment in the future of
our children. When children are deprived of the opportunity to
reach their full potential, we as a country are deprived of our
full potential.
Canadians are concerned about the state of our national health
care system. This budget confirms an increase in the cash floor
of the Canada health and social transfer from $11 billion
annually to $12.5 billion annually. This amount responds
directly to the recommendations of the national forum on health.
In addition to this annual cash contribution, our federal
government will pour over $13.5 billion in 1998-99 into
provincial coffers in tax points for health and social programs.
This is totally different from the equalization transfers.
1755
There has been much misinformation about the impact of federal
transfer payment reductions to the province of Ontario over the
last few years. I would like to clarify that.
When fully implemented, Mike Harris' 30% tax cut scheme will
reduce provincial revenues by $4.8 billion per year, money that
could have been used to balance the budget or fund health care.
It is more than five times as much as the $850 million that
federal transfer restraint will have cost the province by the
year 1998-99. Let us put things in the proper perspective.
The province of Ontario has made some choices as we have and we
have not sacrificed important social programs for tax cuts.
General tax cuts will come when we can afford them as Canadians.
This budget begins the process of tax reductions as I said, and
I am confident that more tax reductions will follow. We have
heard much recently about the so-called brain drain. Some would
call it the brain trade, but I think it is clear that we need to
pay attention to differential tax policies in the United States
and Canada as it affects individuals.
In the United States, for example, tax policies encourage
employees to own shares in their own company. Tax policies also
encourage employers to set up employee share ownership plans.
The results are significant. Increased productivity, more
employment, greater job satisfaction and many other benefits. I
believe we should be moving aggressively in these areas as well.
In the overall equation, we need to understand and accept the
fact that individuals moving to the United States are often
making a lifestyle choice. I quote from the Toronto Globe and
Mail recently from a professional who moved to the United
States and then moved back to Canada after some years in the
United States. The article is entitled Back from the Brain
Drain. He said: “I doubt that there are substantial tax gains
to be made for the average young professional if he had to pay
the real cost of health care and relocation.”
This is not from a right wing think tank. This is not theory.
This is from a Canadian who went to the United States and has
come back.
There are many other positive provisions in this budget which we
cannot really outline here in any detail. We have heard about
many of them from my colleagues. Not too many of the other
members opposite have mentioned them but there is health care,
child care expenses, people with infirmities, with disabilities,
self-employed individuals, the voluntary sector and a host of
other very positive provisions.
To sum up, this budget has balance. It is the Liberal way but I
would ask all in this House to celebrate this historic moment and
agree among parliamentarians that we will work together to
build a stronger future for all Canadians.
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton—Melville, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, I have a very simple question for this member. I have
asked this question previously but really did not get an answer.
One of the things that the government has done in its budget is
give a tax break to parents who use child care outside of the
home.
I feel this is totally unfair and unjust. The member talks
about balance. There is no balance here. Does he not agree that
parents giving care to their children in the home provide just as
valuable a service to society as anyone else and should be
afforded the same tax considerations?
It is going to have a very negative effect on the family to have
parents subsidize other parents who use child care outside of the
home. Those parents that make that choice, I believe, should be
afforded the same privileges as those that use child care at
home. Would he agree?
Mr. Roy Cullen: Mr. Speaker, the question the member
poses I think raises some fundamental questions about the imputed
value of a number of different services that are provided by
members of the family. For example, we have questions about the
value of services that housewives provide. Is there imputed
benefit to that that should be considered in the overall tax
system? As far as caregiving in the home, I think it is sort of
tied up in that question.
Mr. Cullen
1800
It is an issue I think we need to consider but in fairness there
is a cost to making moves with respect to those provisions.
It has ramifications throughout the whole tax system. I think
we need to look at them carefully but cautiously.
[Translation]
Mr. Jean Dubé (Madawaska—Restigouche, PC): Mr. Speaker, I have
listened attentively to the comments by the government member.
My question is about transfer payments. Listening to the
comments by the Liberal member, he seems to be praising the
government for this budget. In reality, seven of the ten
provinces will lose money with this budget.
In my province of New Brunswick, the health system is deplorable.
I myself was at a hospital in my region this past weekend, and I
saw beds out in the halls; people were waiting for operations.
The hon. member says it is a good budget. New Brunswick will
lose another $11 million by the year 2001 or 2002. That is $11
million, Mr. Speaker.
Seven provinces out of ten will lose money. Quebec will lose
$333 million.
Does the Liberal member believe that his government is right to
continue to make cuts, or should it not put its finger on the
problem and put an immediate end to the cuts in transfers to the
provinces affecting the health system?
Mr. Roy Cullen: Mr. Speaker, I thank the
hon. member from New Brunswick for his question.
[English]
When the federal government dealt with our budgetary deficit it
was unrealistic to expect we could not deal with federal
transfers. We had to deal with federal transfers which comprise
20% to 25% of the total budget of the federal government.
We gave the provinces the lead time required. We told them that
some modest adjustments were coming and we gave them time to
prepare.
With respect to New Brunswick, the figures the member opposite
is quoting may be slightly out of context. If we look at the
federal government transfers to New Brunswick, from the year
1993-94 to 1998-99, including equalization and the Canada health
and social transfer, it has actually gone up, although not by a
large amount.
In 1998-99 transfers to New Brunswick will exceed $1.5 billion.
They will account for about 34% of New Brunswick's estimated
revenues and they are expected to total about $2,000 per person,
which is more than 75% above the national average.
With respect to New Brunswick I think our government has been
very fair and the equity is obvious.
Ms. Eleni Bakopanos (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
am very proud to rise in the House in support of our government's
outstanding achievement in bringing Canada back to economic
prosperity.
[Translation]
In 1993, the Liberal Party received a very clear mandate from
Canadians: that the government's finances must be put in order.
Now, more than a year before the target date, we have kept our
word and fulfilled our promises. Canadians had sufficient
confidence in our ability in this area to give us a second
mandate to keep up the good work.
[English]
In January 1994 the deficit was $42 billion. The unemployment
rate was higher than ever and our debtload had jeopardized the
future of our social programs, health programs and most of all
our children's futures, my two daughters' futures.
1805
Five years ago I was very concerned about my daughter's future.
The country was in a financial and political crisis. But since
the Liberals took office over five years ago, more than one
million jobs have been created, the unemployment rate has dropped
steadily down to 8.9% in January. Now Canada is the first G-7
country to reach its target of a balanced budget. With a growth
rate of three and a half per cent in 1998 we will be leading the
group of most industrialized countries according to the OECD. So
I have good news to tell my two daughters.
With this budget Canadians regained the liberty to choose their
future and what they want for their country. We can set our
priorities, we can invest in our children and young people, we
can create an optimal environment for economic and social
prosperity while at the same time pursuing our goal to reduce our
debt.
Contrary to what is being said by the official opposition we are
not putting aside our concern for the debt. We are putting money
aside to take care of the debt. The 50:50 formula proposed
during the last election campaign and reaffirmed in the Speech
from the Throne is a well balanced approach allowing us to invest
in the future while assuring our financial stability. In other
words we are beginning to build a house from the foundation up
and not the other way around according to some of the opposition
members.
To be fiscally responsible while ensuring all citizens have
access to high quality health and social services while fighting
against social exclusion and creating optimal conditions for
growth is what this government is offering to Canadians.
Some members of this House would have us believe that the
government should not invest in our future, that it should
concentrate solely on debt reduction. We believe the quickest
way to reduce our debt is to have a growing economy and therefore
to invest in job creation and most of all in education.
I believe the government has a role to play in providing the
tools to facilitate growth and this is exactly what this budget
is doing.
[Translation]
In my riding of Ahuntsic for example, investments made by the
federal government in the transition job fund enabled several
textile companies to update their equipment and hire more
employees.
Thanks to federal grants, Tricot Giorgio, Tricot Terrytex and
Christina Canada were able to buy new state-of-the-art equipment
and export their products to new markets. This initiative has
generated 366 new jobs in my riding of Ahuntsic since September.
This goes to show the emphasis placed by this government on job
creation and the development of a vital economy for my city,
Montreal, my province, Quebec, and my country, Canada.
[English]
I and many of my colleagues believe that education should be a
priority for any government. As we all know, education is a
priority for this government. By investing in education the
government is showing its clear commitment toward the future of
our youth and our country.
My parents believed in education. They sacrificed their own
future in order that I would have a better future by coming to
Canada. They truly believed, and thanks to them today I can say
education is the reason I sit in this House. As the mother of
two young daughters I also place a high premium on education.
When I have occasion I encourage all the young people in my
riding to continue their studies. I believe this is what the
budget does. It encourages young people to stay in school and to
get a good education in order to have a better future.
The Canadian opportunities strategy will provide Canadians,
especially young Canadians, with greater opportunities to prosper
in the new knowledge based economy. I believe the federal
government has a responsibility to prepare our youth for the 21st
century.
[Translation]
Establishing the Canadian millennium scholarship foundation, to
support young people who wish to pursue post-secondary studies,
fits in with this. Through an initial endowment of $2.5 million,
the foundation will provide scholarships to over 100,000 part
time and full time Canadian students, and this will be done in
partnership with the provinces and the various stakeholders in
the education community. This is the most important investment
ever made by a Canadian government in support of the education of
our youth.
Some criticize this initiative, as if the federal government
were trying to take the place of the provinces in the field of
education.
No one, however, has questioned the fact that the provinces are
responsible for programs and their contents, as well as
administering educational institutions.
1810
On the contrary, I believe the creation of an independent
foundation designed to better position Canadians on the labour
market will benefit the provinces. In order to avoid any
unnecessary duplication, the administration of the fund and the
allocation criteria for scholarships will be decided upon in
partnership with the provinces, through an organization at arm's
length from the federal government.
Faced with the challenges of the new millennium, governments
have a duty to work together. However, we know that the Quebec
separatist government does not really intend to co-operate. That
might show that Canada works, that Canada is a good place and
that Quebeckers should remain in Canada.
I feel it would be unfair to penalize thousands of young people
from Quebec and elsewhere in the country simply because of the
illusions of the separatist leaders.
[English]
A well educated labour force creates employment. The youth
employment strategy announced in 1997 to help young Canadians in
gaining experience in the workplace has been renewed. This is
extremely important for young Canadians.
In my riding of Ahuntsic 51 organizations and private enterprise
used federal funds to hire 81 young people last summer. Hopefully
they will hire more because we have increased funding in that
program.
Thanks to these programs, young Canadians are able to find a
crucial first job that bridges the gap between school and work.
Also, this budget supports youth employment by more than doubling
funding for youth at risk, principally those who have not
completed high school.
I had occasion to work on three such projects since I was
elected to this House. I can say that the young people who
finished those projects felt it was one of the best experiences
they had. Three of them returned to school, and they were street
kids to begin with.
Another measure that encourages youth employment is the
employment insurance premium holiday provided to employers for
additional Canadians age 18 to 24 hired in 1999 and 2000.
These initiatives will make it easier for young Canadians to
integrate into the work force. Yes, with the Canadian
opportunities strategy this government is clearly showing its
commitment toward the future, a future firmly anchored in the
social values of this country and in liberalism and our Liberal
values also.
This government is very recognizant, despite what the opposition
members would have people believe, of the sacrifices of all
Canadians. With Canadians' support and good Liberal management
we now have a balanced budget which allows the government to
reduce taxes without affecting our social programs.
I believe tax relief must be targeted to support Canadians'
priorities and to those who most need it. In fact, my
constituents told me so. I polled my constituents and the
majority of them asked that there be some tax relief for those in
the most need in Canada.
This is what the 1998 budget is proposing by delivering $7
billion of tax relief over the next three years to middle and low
income Canadians.
Starting in 1998, the basic personal exemption will increase,
meaning 400,000 low income Canadians will no longer pay any
federal income tax.
Also, there will be $850 million which will be injected to
increase the child tax benefit and to help working Canadians with
children.
The government proposes to increase the limit on child care
expense deductions from $5,000 to $7,000 for children under 7 and
from $3,000 to $4,000 for children between 7 and 16.
[Translation]
The 1998 budget is in keeping with the tradition of sound
financial and economic management initiated by this government
when it was first elected, in 1993. This approach reflects the
priorities of Canadians. This new budget is very significant. By
balancing its books, the Liberal government gave back to
Canadians the freedom to decide the future of their country. We
can now define our priorities and invest to prepare the future of
our children and our youth.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): It being 6.15 p.m.,
it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith
every question necessary to dispose of ways and means Motion
No. 5.
The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House
to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): In my opinion the
yeas have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Call in the members.
1845
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
|
Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
| Byrne
|
Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Charbonneau
| Chrétien
(Saint - Maurice)
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Cohen
| Collenette
| Copps
| Cullen
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Finestone
| Finlay
| Folco
|
Fontana
| Fry
| Gagliano
| Gallaway
|
Godfrey
| Goodale
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Harvard
| Hubbard
|
Ianno
| Iftody
| Jackson
| Jennings
|
Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
|
Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lincoln
| Longfield
| MacAulay
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
| Marchi
|
Marleau
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Massé
| McCormick
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McTeague
|
McWhinney
| Mifflin
| Milliken
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Minna
| Mitchell
| Murray
| Myers
|
Nault
| Normand
| Nunziata
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
|
O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
|
Patry
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Pillitteri
| Pratt
| Proud
|
Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
|
Robillard
| Rock
| Saada
| Scott
(Fredericton)
|
Serré
| Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
| St - Julien
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Wappel
| Whelan
|
Wilfert
| Wood – 146
|
NAYS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Alarie
| Anders
|
Asselin
| Axworthy
(Saskatoon – Rosetown – Biggar)
| Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
|
Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
| Bergeron
|
Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bigras
| Blaikie
|
Borotsik
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brien
|
Brison
| Casey
| Casson
| Chatters
|
Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
| Dalphond - Guiral
| Davies
|
Debien
| Desjarlais
| Desrochers
| Doyle
|
Dubé
(Lévis)
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duceppe
| Duncan
|
Elley
| Epp
| Forseth
| Gagnon
|
Gauthier
| Gilmour
| Girard - Bujold
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
|
Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Goldring
| Gouk
| Grewal
|
Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Guay
| Guimond
| Hanger
|
Hardy
| Harris
| Harvey
| Herron
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hoeppner
|
Jaffer
| Johnston
| Jones
| Keddy
(South Shore)
|
Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
| Kerpan
| Konrad
| Laliberte
|
Lalonde
| Laurin
| Lebel
| Loubier
|
Lowther
| Lunn
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Manning
|
Marchand
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Mayfield
| McNally
|
Ménard
| Mercier
| Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
|
Morrison
| Muise
| Obhrai
| Penson
|
Perron
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Plamondon
| Power
|
Price
| Proctor
| Ramsay
| Reynolds
|
Riis
| Ritz
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
Schmidt
| Scott
(Skeena)
| Solberg
| Solomon
|
Stinson
| St - Jacques
| Stoffer
| Strahl
|
Thompson
(Charlotte)
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
|
Vautour
| Vellacott
| Venne
| Wasylycia - Leis
|
Wayne
| White
(North Vancouver)
| Williams – 119
|
PAIRED
Members
Anderson
| Barnes
| Canuel
| de Savoye
|
Fournier
| Lefebvre
| Marceau
| McCormick
|
O'Brien
(Labrador)
| Pickard
(Kent – Essex)
| St - Hilaire
| Volpe
|
The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
* * *
HOUSE OF COMMONS
STANDING COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
The House resumed consideration of the motion and of the
amendment.
[Translation]
The Speaker: The next recorded division is on the amendment to
the motion relating to privilege.
Mr. Bob Kilger (Stormont—Dundas, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I think you
will find unanimous consent to have members who voted on the
preceding motion recorded as having voted on the motion now
before the House, with Liberal members voting yea.
[English]
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in this
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
An hon. member: No.
The Speaker: The question is on the amendment. Is it the
pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Speaker: All those in favour of the amendment will
please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Speaker: In my opinion the yeas have it.
And more than five members having risen:
1855
(The House divided on the amendment, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Alarie
| Alcock
| Assad
|
Assadourian
| Asselin
| Augustine
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
|
Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellehumeur
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
|
Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Bigras
|
Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
|
Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brien
| Brison
|
Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
| Byrne
|
Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
|
Casey
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Chrétien
(Saint - Maurice)
|
Clouthier
| Coderre
| Cohen
| Collenette
|
Copps
| Crête
| Cullen
| Dalphond - Guiral
|
Debien
| Desrochers
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
|
Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
| Dromisky
|
Drouin
| Dubé
(Lévis)
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duceppe
|
Duhamel
| Easter
| Eggleton
| Finestone
|
Finlay
| Folco
| Fontana
| Fry
|
Gagliano
| Gagnon
| Gallaway
| Gauthier
|
Girard - Bujold
| Godfrey
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Goodale
|
Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
| Guay
|
Guimond
| Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
|
Hubbard
| Ianno
| Iftody
| Jackson
|
Jennings
| Jones
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Keddy
(South Shore)
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lalonde
| Lastewka
|
Laurin
| Lavigne
| Lebel
| Lee
|
Leung
| Lincoln
| Longfield
| Loubier
|
MacAulay
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
| Malhi
|
Maloney
| Manley
| Marchand
| Marchi
|
Marleau
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Massé
| McCormick
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McWhinney
|
Ménard
| Mercier
| Mifflin
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Minna
| Mitchell
| Muise
| Murray
|
Myers
| Nault
| Normand
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
|
O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
|
Patry
| Peric
| Perron
| Peterson
|
Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Pillitteri
|
Plamondon
| Power
| Pratt
| Price
|
Proud
| Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
|
Richardson
| Robillard
| Rocheleau
| Rock
|
Saada
| Sauvageau
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Shepherd
|
Speller
| St. Denis
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Szabo
| Telegdi
|
Thibeault
| Thompson
(Charlotte)
| Torsney
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
|
Turp
| Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
|
Venne
| Wayne
| Whelan
| Wilfert
|
Wood – 193
|
NAYS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Anders
| Axworthy
(Saskatoon – Rosetown – Biggar)
|
Bailey
| Benoit
| Blaikie
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
|
Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Casson
| Chatters
| Davies
|
Desjarlais
| Duncan
| Elley
| Epp
|
Forseth
| Gilmour
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
|
Gouk
| Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Hanger
|
Hardy
| Harris
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
|
Hilstrom
| Hoeppner
| Jaffer
| Johnston
|
Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
| Kerpan
| Konrad
| Laliberte
|
Lowther
| Lunn
| Manning
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
|
Mayfield
| McNally
| Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
|
Morrison
| Nunziata
| Obhrai
| Penson
|
Proctor
| Ramsay
| Reynolds
| Riis
|
Ritz
| Schmidt
| Scott
(Skeena)
| Solberg
|
Solomon
| Stinson
| Stoffer
| Strahl
|
Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Vautour
| Vellacott
| Wasylycia - Leis
|
White
(North Vancouver)
| Williams
– 66
|
PAIRED
Members
Anderson
| Barnes
| Canuel
| de Savoye
|
Fournier
| Lefebvre
| Marceau
| McCormick
|
O'Brien
(Labrador)
| Pickard
(Kent – Essex)
| St - Hilaire
| Volpe
|
The Speaker: I declare the amendment carried. The next
question is on the main motion as amended. Is it the pleasure of
the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Speaker: All those in favour of the motion will
please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Speaker: In my opinion the yeas have it.
And more than five members having risen:
1905
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Alarie
| Alcock
| Assad
|
Assadourian
| Asselin
| Augustine
| Axworthy
(Saskatoon – Rosetown – Biggar)
|
Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
| Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Baker
|
Bakopanos
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellehumeur
| Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bergeron
|
Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
|
Bigras
| Blaikie
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
|
Bonwick
| Borotsik
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
|
Brien
| Brison
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Byrne
| Calder
| Cannis
|
Caplan
| Carroll
| Casey
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
|
Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Chrétien
(Saint - Maurice)
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Cohen
| Collenette
| Copps
| Crête
|
Cullen
| Dalphond - Guiral
| Davies
| Debien
|
Desjarlais
| Desrochers
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
|
Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
| Dromisky
|
Drouin
| Dubé
(Lévis)
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duceppe
|
Duhamel
| Easter
| Eggleton
| Finestone
|
Finlay
| Folco
| Fontana
| Fry
|
Gagliano
| Gagnon
| Gallaway
| Gauthier
|
Girard - Bujold
| Godfrey
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
|
Goodale
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
|
Guay
| Guimond
| Hardy
| Harvard
|
Harvey
| Herron
| Hubbard
| Ianno
|
Iftody
| Jackson
| Jennings
| Jones
|
Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Keddy
(South Shore)
| Keyes
|
Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
|
Laliberte
| Lalonde
| Lastewka
| Laurin
|
Lavigne
| Lebel
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lincoln
| Loubier
| MacAulay
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
|
Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
|
Marchand
| Marchi
| Marleau
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
|
Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Massé
| McCormick
| McGuire
|
McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McWhinney
| Ménard
| Mercier
|
Mifflin
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
| Mitchell
|
Muise
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Normand
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
|
Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
|
Perron
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Pillitteri
| Plamondon
| Power
|
Pratt
| Price
| Proctor
| Proud
|
Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
|
Riis
| Robillard
| Rocheleau
| Rock
|
Saada
| Sauvageau
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Shepherd
|
Solomon
| Speller
| St. Denis
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Stoffer
|
Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Thompson
(Charlotte)
|
Torsney
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Vautour
| Venne
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| Wayne
| Whelan
| Wilfert
|
Wood – 205
|
NAYS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Anders
| Bailey
|
Benoit
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Casson
|
Chatters
| Duncan
| Elley
| Epp
|
Forseth
| Gilmour
| Goldring
| Gouk
|
Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Hanger
| Harris
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hoeppner
|
Jaffer
| Johnston
| Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
| Kerpan
|
Konrad
| Lowther
| Lunn
| Manning
|
Mayfield
| McNally
| Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
|
Morrison
| Obhrai
| Penson
| Ramsay
|
Reynolds
| Ritz
| Schmidt
| Scott
(Skeena)
|
Serré
| Solberg
| Stinson
| Strahl
|
Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Vellacott
| White
(North Vancouver)
| Williams – 52
|
PAIRED
Members
Anderson
| Barnes
| Canuel
| de Savoye
|
Fournier
| Lefebvre
| Marceau
| McCormick
|
O'Brien
(Labrador)
| Pickard
(Kent – Essex)
| St - Hilaire
| Volpe
|
The Speaker: I declare the motion as amended carried.
Pursuant to order made earlier today, the motion to adjourn the
House is now deemed to have been moved.
* * *
THE ECONOMY
The Speaker: It is my understanding that all speeches
will be 10 minutes or less.
Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parkdale—High Park, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it is truly a privilege and honour to rise this evening
to speak to the first balanced budget since 1970.
While the credit undoubtedly goes to the Minister of Finance and
the Prime Minister for their vision and leadership, primarily
first and foremost it must go to all Canadians. Without the
partnership that existed between the government and Canadians
from coast to coast in our first mandate and our subsequent
re-election on June 2, a balanced budget would not have been
possible.
Some other good news from the budget of 1998 is a guarantee of
consecutive balanced budgets for 1998-99 and 1999-2000.
While hon. members from across the floor may disagree with
aspects of the budget, they must accept at the outset that a
balanced budget is a good start. Many of my colleagues have
talked about the wonderful aspects for education the budget gives
our youth in retraining and the vision of the budget as an
educational budget.
I would like to concentrate in my 10 minutes on actually talking
about the government's renewal of the arts and cultural
industries in Canada. I submit that the budget already sets the
stage for dialogue about the strategic reinvestment in our arts
and cultural industries.
In the budget it is clear that we are again promoting Canadian
culture.
1910
The Speaker: I think some colleagues are close by and
their conversation is coming over the system. I wonder if we
could just ask them to take their meeting outside.
Ms. Sarmite Bulte: Mr. Speaker, three programs were
announced by the Minister of Canadian Heritage prior to the
release of the budget: the additional $25 million to the Canada
Council, an increase of $15 million in support for our publishing
industry, and an additional $50 million to cover athletes and
coaches.
Most important, what I would like to talk about is the
government's renewal of the Canada television and cable
production fund. This fund represents a uniquely successful
blend of public and private funding. It joins government and
cable industry contributed moneys to enhance the broadcast
presence of high quality Canadian programs.
Last year the fund supported from 19,600 full and part time jobs
throughout Canada. I must emphasize it was throughout Canada.
Most of these jobs were in highly specialized skilled and were
well paid jobs. The direct economic spin-off benefits are in the
range of $625 million.
There also exists further economic benefits to those small and
medium size businesses that supply services as a result of this
increase in production activity.
The funds objectives are clear: to increase the quality and
quantity of Canadian programming available to Canadians on
television, to assist job creation and growth in all regions of
Canada, to enhance the capacity to produce and distribute
domestic television programs, to maintain and increase broadcast
presence of distinct Canadian programs, and to encourage greater
export opportunities.
The fund is financed by the Department of Canadian Heritage,
Telefilm Canada and the cable industry's former cable production
fund. In its first year of operation the new television and
cable production fund has made possible a record number of 2,221
hours of Canadian programming that reflect the dynamic increased
talents of Canadians and reach wide audiences both at home and
abroad.
At a time when Canadians watch an average of 24 hours of
television a week we must realize that this medium is our primary
source of entertainment, information and news.
Coupled with the size and resources of the television industry
of our neighbours to the south there exists a real danger of
Canadians, young and old but especially our young people, our
future, knowing more about the United States than about their own
country, Canada.
The renewal of the fund represents not only the government's
commitment to Canadian television but recognizes the positive
economic impact of Canada's arts industry.
A country's real strength lies in its people. The arts and the
culture of a people are the expressions of their heart and soul.
It is the movies, television, music, painting, dance and theatre
that enable Canadians to laugh, talk and cry together. Through
them we can express our identity, our similarities and
differences.
The production fund is a proven success, culturally and
economically. The government's decision to extend the program is
recognition of that success and of the importance we attach to
Canadian cultural expression.
Canadians have a right to see and hear their own stories on
television, the most powerful cultural medium of our time.
Canadians deserve Canadian programming.
The renewal of the Canada television and cable production fund
will go a long way to achieve this end. To date the fund has
delivered more than 2,200 hours of high quality prime time
programming from all regions in Canada. Without funding from the
fund, many of these projects would never reach television
audiences in Canada.
This is not just good news for television. This fund in
particular was good news for the CBC. The 1996 cable production
fund brought critical new resources to CBC schedules.
In 1996-97 the fund supported independent production for CBC-SRC
totalling $91 million and produced $218 million in overall
program budgets.
The fund supported independent production for CBC-SRC totalling
some 384 hours in 1996-97 with over 300 more new hours projected
for 1997-98.
1915
The CBC's Canadianization of English television and the
significant enrichment of French television could not have
happened without the fund.
There was the establishment of quotas for access to funds
investment and licence fee components by independent producers
working with the CBC. Half of the fund's moneys went to fund CBC
programming production.
This targeted predictable funding has partially offset other
funding cuts. It has permitted the CBC's television services to
pursue national cultural objectives that would not otherwise be
obtainable.
The broadcast schedules are unique in the volume and
distinctiveness of their identifiably Canadian programming, from
Omertà and Urgence to Wind at My Back and
Black Harbour, from Juste pour rire to The Red
Green Show. There are programs that arise from both the major
centres and the regions of Canada, from Riverdale to
North of 60 and from Watatatow to L'Ame d'un
peuple. There are programs that affect all of Canada's
peoples and reflect the way we look at each other.
As I stated this is just the beginning of our reinvestment into
the arts. One of the things the public has sometimes felt is
that when we are investing in the arts we are only investing in
arts organizations. That is not true. The message we must bring
to all Canadians is that when we invest in the arts, we are also
investing in our economic and social well-being.
Recently the Canadian Conference of the Arts published a
discussion paper “Arts in Transition Project”. It looked at
how and why the Canadian public should justify public sector
funding. I would like to conclude by reading from this report.
No reasonable Canadian believes that the purpose of our health
care system is to employ doctors. No one complains that our
legal system exists only to pay judges—.We value our health
care, legal, and educational systems because of the fundamental
benefits they make available to all Canadians who want or need
them, whether or not specific individuals ever go to a hospital,
take a case to court, or study at a post-secondary institution.
I would challenge our arts and culture industries and the
government to work together with the public to show once again
that our strategic reinvestment in the arts and culture
industries is not just to benefit the artists and arts
organizations, but is to benefit Canadians and our economic and
social well-being as a whole.
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it
feels just a little bit strange tonight after the episode that we
have gone through over the last couple of days that I would be up
speaking on the budget which has already been passed. I thought
the purpose of a debate was that hopefully you could sway
somebody to see things your way and maybe influence them when the
issue came to a vote, but this issue has been settled and we are
still debating it.
I am pleased to participate to that extent but I find it really
strange. I should not get too upset or worried about it. What I
have seen happen in this House in the last four and a half years
that I have been here is that most of the decisions are made
before we start talking about them in the House of Commons.
Unfortunately, behind closed doors a decision is made by a few
then everybody is instructed how to vote. That is exactly what
happens. They come out like little puppets and vote the way they
are told, then it carries and the debate does not really mean
much anyway.
I am going to take this opportunity to extend my gratitude to
the taxpayers of Canada. Although for the last month the
Liberals across the floor have been busy patting each other on
the back for a job well done, we all know that the balanced
budget is due to the hard work and sacrifice of Canadians from
coast to coast. Their sacrifice has been compounded through
provincial hardships which no one wants to talk about in this
House.
1920
The truth of the matter is that the federal government has
forced the provincial governments to do its political dirty work
by reducing transfer payments by up to 55% for health care and
education. That has put an additional strain on our already
strapped provincial governments while the Liberal government has
been allowed to write in black ink. It has forced provincial
governments into the red in an effort to balance their budgets.
This cannot, in my view, be considered a success.
To add insult to injury, the Liberals have begun a surplus
spending spree, which is a very good habit of theirs. We can
simply look at the $600 billion debt. We know that the Liberals
started that debt and then the Conservatives chimed in. They
really like to spend. They spread our hard earned gains so thin
that no real good will be done.
Instead of giving taxpayers well deserved tax relief or reducing
the debt, they have launched $11 billion of new spending. Once
again we have all sizzle and no steak from our finance minister.
It is a classic example of short term thinking and there will be
no long term rewards for our nation. It is obvious the Liberals
can only think as far ahead as the next election.
The big government philosophy of the 1980s has not yet left the
Liberal Party. We continue to see billions of tax dollars wasted
each year in the name of political pride.
First we had the Pearson fiasco to the tune of $260 million.
Then we had the Airbus scandal which cost us $3.4 million. It
was a futile but expensive effort to try to embarrass a past
prime minister. The helicopter deal cost us $478 million in
cancellation penalties. Only in the Liberal Party could they
spend twice the amount for half of the helicopters and call it a
good deal.
This budget is clearly without a plan.
In presenting the 1991 budget Michael Wilson stated “We will
establish a debt service and reduction fund solely dedicated to
offsetting the costs of the public debt. All revenues from the
goods and services tax and from privatization will flow into this
fund”. That was a promise made back when the fabulous GST was
brought in, which the Conservatives were going to steer directly
toward the debt in order to get it under control. It was a big
joke.
If nothing else, the 1991 budget had a vision. It was not long
after that that the Tories gave up the responsible spending fight
and selected the easier tax and spend rhetoric, just like the
Liberals are doing today. We really only need two parties in the
House, the spenders and the non-spenders.
In addition by the year 2000, Canadians will be paying $48
billion per year more in taxes than when the Liberals were
elected. This increase alone is equivalent to $5,000 per
Canadian family. Beware Canadian families. The day is coming.
Taxes are going to go higher and higher. This budget proves it.
In addition, by the year 2000 the Liberals will be collecting
$22 billion per year in GST. That is 46% more than the year they
were elected. That is an awful lot of money for a tax which our
Prime Minister promised to abolish. He gave the nation his word.
He was going to abolish it. Instead it is going to draw 46%
more.
As a former teacher I am deeply concerned about the young people
of Canada. What will the future hold for them? This budget
offers them little hope.
The Prime Minister's millennium legacy scholarship fund and job
training programs, such as youth service Canada, are merely
band-aids and not solutions to the problems facing youth. Once
again our government is playing a public relations game with
Canadian youth. On the one hand there is the slash and burn
approach to cutting education transfer payments to the provinces
which makes the dream of a university education unattainable for
many. Then in a vain attempt to make itself look good, the
government offers a select few students funding by way of
scholarships which will not begin until the year 2000. For the
vast majority of desperate youth today, the millennium fund will
be too late.
The Liberals' ambivalence toward children begins at an early
age. By expanding the child care expense deduction they have
added to the degeneration of the Canadian family unit by
promoting non-parental child care. It is beyond me why the
government does not understand that a child's parents will
provide the best care available.
Our entire tax structure focuses on those who use alternative
care. A recent Compas research poll stated that 90% of the
population believes a family setting is preferable to daycare
when asked what is the best for an infant or a preschool child.
1925
I really have a tough time when I hear about a father or mother
who wishes to stay home with the children while the other one
works and they are not going to be able to because of this budget
and this government. These parents must work in order to meet
the taxes that they are going to be obligated to pay. I truly
believe that many of the problems with today's youth, including
violent crime, teenage pregnancies and the intolerable dropout
rates stem back to the government's promotion of limited home
parental care.
When I came here in 1993, the Liberals said there were one
million children in this country who were living in poverty and
starving. Now in 1998 I still hear the same thing from that side
of the House. I heard a member a moment ago talking about all the
wonderful money they are going to give to the CBC, the little
give outs here and all the wonderful glorious things they are
going to do. But nobody has given any money to these children.
How about giving to the children's aid societies in these cities
that are struggling to try to keep food on these kids' tables and
clothes on their backs. When are they going to start doing
something like that? I guess that is not the politically popular
thing to do.
One more group which has been neglected and which I would like
to speak about is the seniors. This budget has left them
standing in the cold. In 1996 the seniors benefit was floated as
a trial balloon in the budget with the legislation promised for
the fall of that year. This proposal established a punishing
marginal tax rate of up to 75% for middle and upper income
seniors while providing a meagre 17 cents a day to the poorer
seniors. Two years have passed and the finance minister has not
found a face-saving solution to this dilemma.
Reform believes that changes should be made on the following
basis. The benefit must be better targeted to those in need. Any
reduction in benefits must treat middle and upper income groups
fairly. There must be sufficient time for not yet retired people
to make retirement plans. For those whose birthdays cause them
to miss the cutoff date they are being unduly penalized.
Apparently this government feels that it is fair to ignore
Canadians who have generously paid taxes their entire lives and
are looking to enjoy what few years they have left. They should
not get their hopes up because there is nothing in this budget
that is going to make that happen.
Next on the list of those that do not concern the Liberal
government are the Canadian small businessmen. It has upped the
payroll taxes and given no tax relief to the businesses,
especially small businesses that provide jobs. People running
small businesses should not get their hopes up because nothing is
going to happen through this budget.
In conclusion, the Canadian government has finally stopped
acting like a household living beyond its means. It may have cut
up the credit cards but the debt remains. Regretfully the
Liberals' spending of our surplus on new programs is a sign that
we will soon see a deficit again which will truly be a shame.
[Translation]
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to
take part in the debate on the budget speech, all the more so as
it is ironically at complete odds with its title: Building
Canada for the 21st Century.
What this budget really does is provide the tools to weaken
Canada. It seems that a real blueprint for society should
contain a genuine vision, and that is what this budget lacks. It
should also respect its partners and be attentive to the needs of
the disadvantaged. It is about this lack of vision, respect,
compassion and transparency in the budget speech that I am going
to talk to you today.
After four years of fighting the deficit on the backs of the
provinces, the unemployed and the disadvantaged, the Liberal
government is in a hurry to get back to its old habit of
spending. In his budget, the Minister of Finance announced over
$10 billion in new spending and tax cuts of $7.2 billion by 2001.
But nowhere did he mention that his government wanted to pass an
anti-deficit bill, the purpose of which would be to balance the
budget.
1930
The federal government will once again be interfering in
provincial areas of jurisdiction, ones that do not belong to it.
Instead, it should be looking in its own backyard, reducing its
own expenditures so the people of Canada and of Quebec will never
again have to experience the situation they were thrown into of
battling the deficit. As we know, everyone contributed heavily
to that effort.
The Minister of Finance's audacity does not stop there, moreover.
The Liberal party bagman, the man with the heavy responsibility
of deciding what he will do with the surplus, is talking about a
balanced budget. The provinces, who got hit with 52% of federal
cuts, are entitled to only 23% of the new expenditures.
Individuals got hit with 37% of the federal cuts and are
entitled to only 26% of the new expenditures. Federal spending
was cut by only 12%, yet accounts for 51% of the new
expenditures.
So it is easy to understand why the President of Treasury Board
has said “When Mr. Bouchard has to cut in Quebec, we in Ottawa
will be able to demonstrate that we are the only ones preserving
the future of social programs”. We can say that this greatly
desired objective of the President of Treasury Board has been
attained.
What is happening in the provinces? Cuts are being made. What
is happening at the federal level? Money is being spent left and
right in areas under provincial jurisdiction, without any real
vision or strategies. The deception has now been revealed, the
figures are there to prove it.
How can the minister talk about balance when he has reduced his
own spending by only 9 per cent? We all know that he had promised
cuts of over 19 per cent. Therefore, it is not the first time the
finance minister has made vague and contradictory statements.
On January 10, 1997, this same Minister of Finance said, and I
quote: “I believe child poverty is the greatest political
challenge of our time from a social point of view”. Whatever
happened to this minister's willingness to fight poverty? Instead
of eliminating the problem, I think he is making it worse.
The government just gave a meagre $600 million that will be
added to the $250 million announced in 1995 for the child tax
benefit. This increase will not take effect until next July. The
finance minister also announced another $425 million for July
1999 and the same amount again for the year 2000.
He has been saying since 1996 that he would do something to
fight poverty and he has not done anything yet. He is promising
something for next July, but he is already $250 million behind.
To be effective in our fight against poverty, we need $2 billion
right now. Members of the Bloc deplore the present situation.
If the Minister of Finance took action to index the child tax
benefit, 50,000 more children would be eligible for this
benefit, children who are not eligible now because no indexation
has been done in a very long time. There were indeed solutions,
but the minister did not want to listen to the solutions proposed
by various groups. That is what Campaign 2000, a very well known
organization in Canada, had proposed to the finance minister to
deal with the issue of child poverty.
In the fight against poverty, the government could have tackled
the indexation of personal income tax tables and the GST. Once
again, the minister failed to go after the real problem of
poverty. Had he done so, 840,000 low income households would
not have paid income tax. At the moment, because there is no
indexation, they do.
These are therefore specific measures that the Minister of
Finance often neglects. He could have taken real action to fight
poverty among adults and children, because when children are
poor their parents are poor too.
Another measure the Minister of Finance neglected was a reform of
employment insurance. Such a reform has a negative impact on
poverty. The reforms that took place were hard on people
without work.
1935
The first report on EI reform recently obtained by the Standing
Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status of
Persons with Disabilities is a great disappointment. You might
say the Liberals are incapable of seeing the day to day reality,
and are promising another report to evaluate the impact of these
measures.
We all know that those who cannot get employment insurance are on
welfare. Studies have been done in Quebec showing that 220,000
people are on welfare. When you are on welfare, you are not in
the labour market. This is where to attack the problem of
poverty.
That means an additional 194,000 welfare cases in Quebec. That
means that Quebec has to pay out an additional $845 million in
assistance to people who cannot find jobs.
Countrywide, the figures are as follows: an additional 730,000
welfare cases or an additional cost of $2.5 billion to the
provinces, while the federal government saves $6 billion. That
will enable it to spend wildly, as it wishes, with its
propensity for meddling in provincial jurisdictions.
The sum of $2.5 billion is destined for the millennium
scholarship fund. That is not acceptable because it does not
deal with the problem; rather, it amounts to investing money
without vision or strategy. There have been cuts in Quebec.
Canada has cut $10 billion in education, including $3 billion in
Quebec.
The Bloc Quebecois has proposed many measures for analysis by the
Minister of Finance. Instead of that, we get this skimpy budget.
And who is going to pay for it in the end?
We are paying too much in federal taxes for the strategy chosen
by the Minister of Finance. It is a short term and shortsighted
strategy that ignores the demands of the various stakeholders.
In education, for example, a number of people told the Minister
of Finance that their energy was misdirected. They were ignoring
educational priorities. Furthermore, a lot of people are
dropping out of school and there is a shortage in funds for
education because the transfers to the provinces are not there.
I will not name everyone in positions of authority in the various
university and college administrations who want the money needed
for education to be given to the provinces. The students
federation and a lot of people are disappointed at the federal
government's attitude regarding the millennium scholarships.
It is ignoring what is happening in the provinces.
We have asked the minister to stop spending in areas of
provincial jurisdiction, to not create any new programs and to
give the money back to the provinces. The administration of the
employment insurance plan must also be changed. There must be a
targeted reduction in the tax burden. Legislation must be
passed—
The Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but her
time has run out.
The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre.
[English]
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I rise today to express the disappointment of my
constituents and Canadians everywhere with this federal budget.
It was a budget of profound disappointment for Canadians,
particularly on the health care front. It was a budget that was
greeted not only with disappointment, but with disbelief from
Canadians who really believed that this government was prepared
to deal with the critical health care situation in this country.
We have heard those sentiments expressed from all parts, all
areas in this country. We have heard it from nurses. We have
heard it from doctors. We have heard it from people in hospital
hallways and many other Canadians. We have even heard it from
the Minister of Health. Medicare is underfunded and people are
suffering unnecessarily for it.
This budget offers no new money for medicare. We have heard
time and again from Liberal members suggesting that the cancelled
cut of $1.5 billion is new money.
1940
Let us be clear, it is not. It goes no distance at all to
reversing the $3.5 billion that this Liberal government took out
of health care in 1995. There is no new money in this budget for
health care. There is no federal leadership in this budget.
There is no commitment to expanding on our medicare model by
putting money toward home care in this budget.
It does not work for Canadians to continue to recycle old
commitments and to transform foregone cuts as if they were new
proposals and new initiatives. It does not work to continue to
blame the problem on the provinces although it is quite obvious
that one cannot ignore negative developments on the provincial
front.
This afternoon I listened very carefully to comments by the
member for Brandon—Souris who tried on the one hand to suggest
that the federal government had made a terrible mistake in this
budget with respect to health care and I agree with him on that
point.
On the other hand he tried to suggest that the Conservative
government in Manitoba had made brilliant decisions with respect
to health care and done a great service to Canadians in that
province. It makes no sense to on the one hand criticize the
federal government and then to praise the Manitoba government for
doing precisely what has been happening here federally.
On both counts we are dealing with governments which are so busy
offloading and privatizing and deregulating in the area of health
care that it is in fact the patients who are suffering and
Canada's health care system that is in disarray.
It is true that there is no longer a fiscal deficit in this
country, but what cannot be overlooked is that there is a
profound human deficit. It is the result of another kind of
deficit, a moral deficit on the part of this government.
The Liberal government does not want to reinvest in health care
because it is afraid it will not get the credit for it as those
funds are channelled through the provinces. People can literally
suffer, even die, because the Liberals may not get the credit
they and only they feel they deserve.
Another offensive argument that is being used by the government
to justify their continued squeeze on the health care system is
that if they give the provinces money, it may not be used for
health care because we have a block transfer system for health
and social services.
Let us not forget who established this block transfer system.
It was the Liberals and now the same Liberals are using it as a
convenient excuse to starve medicare out of the billions of
dollars it took out of it.
In these difficult times it is important to acknowledge how
Canadians are struggling and trying to cope in the face of these
continued and demoralizing cuts. The media have also played a
role in bringing these stories to the public's attention;
painful, personal stories about waiting for hours in an emergency
ward before receiving any treatment, stories about nurses working
24 hour shifts and collapsing from exhaustion.
When the Liberals patted themselves on the back for this budget,
Canadians did not let them forget the terrible cost. We once had
one of the finest health care systems in the world. For decades
our health care system provided efficient, good quality service
for all Canadians. Now, because of successive Conservative and
Liberal cutbacks, we are left with a system practically in chaos
in which people can no longer count on timely treatment.
The solution is clear. A reinvestment in medicare is absolutely
imperative. Let us not turn to a private system in which the
rich go to the front of the line and low and middle income people
suffer and die on long waiting lists. Let us reinvest in
medicare so every Canadian has access to timely, good quality
health care.
On another matter, it is clear that there is a set of issues
that have been certainly left off this agenda for a very long
time.
1945
It is hard to believe from the absence of discussion on child
care, on women's health, on violence, that in 1984 there was
actually an all party leaders' debate on women's issues.
Yet today many of the issues that are central to the lives of
women, that are critical for the advancement of the goal of
equality, have been forgotten, ignored, disregarded, and are
invisible on the agenda and in the budget. Like pay equity, for
example, the federal government continues to refuse to pay its
own women workers what they are worth.
On another matter, we had hoped to see in the budget a
restoration of funds to the women's program which has been cut
back by millions of dollars over the years.
The fair share campaign is calling for the government to spend
$2 for every woman and girl in Canada, on organizations and
projects that bring women and men closer to social, economic and
legal equality. Unfortunately the government and the Secretary
of State for the Status of Women are silent on this matter in the
budget.
The government has committed itself to analysing all policies
and programs for any possible differential impact on women and
men. It begs the question where that analysis is in the
formulation of the budget. We want to know if this analysis was
ever considered in terms of the budget decisions like the
decision not to reverse the Liberal's $7 billion cut to health
and social services.
Women, as we all know, make up the majority of workers in and
users of health care and social services. These cuts clearly
have a disproportionate affect on women.
In the budget child care expense deductions were raised. That
is a good step, but where is the national child care program that
was promised and promised until the Liberals were blue in the
face? The 1993 red book promise of 150,000 new spaces is long
forgotten. What good is a child care expense deduction by itself
for those parents whose children have been waiting on lists for
years?
I want it to be known that my colleagues in the NDP caucus, in
particular the member for Vancouver East and the member for
Beauséjour—Petitcodiac, have launched a national campaign for
child care on behalf of NDP participation in the women's
committee. We will do what we can to put pressure on the
government.
There are many other issues to raise, but let me conclude by
saying that I am certainly proud to represent the people of
Winnipeg North Centre. It is a diverse riding made up of
seniors, children, parents trying to make ends meet, people
working in all sorts of jobs and professions, and people looking
for work. What is in the budget for them? Not much.
The government plays with numbers. It sets targets for
inflation. Why can it not set targets for employment, to get
people into jobs? There is no new spending for youth employment.
Less than half of one per cent of unemployed youth will get a
job as a result of the budget.
The Liberal government now has the money to do something about
health care and unemployment and chooses not to. That is the sad
and unacceptable thing about the budget. The government had a
wonderful opportunity to deal with both fiscal issues and the
human deficit. It has missed this opportunity and left a
terrible price for all Canadians to pay.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey (Chicoutimi, PC): Mr. Speaker, we are being
spoiled this evening. I am pleased to speak to the budget
speech. Normally, the main purpose of a budget speech is to
generate a bit of enthusiasm among people, to generate a bit of
hope, but after a few hours, this budget has been completely torn
to shreds. We are going to have to live with a budget that has
not inspired a single Canadian.
The vast majority of editorial writers across the country panned
the budget, which is completely regressive, and puts Canadians in
an even tighter spot.
1950
Instead of generating hope, the budget has shown us once again
that this government has absolutely no agenda of any sort.
Budget-wise, this government has spent the last five years
fixated on the deficit. It should at least have done its
homework, however, in preparation for introducing progressive
measures, because it knew full well that, in the ten years
leading up to 1984, the debt had been increased eleven-fold by the
former Trudeau government from $18 billion to $200 billion.
Over almost the same length of time, about ten years, instead of
multiplying the debt by 11, we multiplied it by two. The
operational deficit was kept under firm control during that
period.
But, in the meantime, we had to adopt measures that would
subsequently enable us to wipe out the deficit and also pay down
the debt. We adopted measures such as free trade. As members
will recall, we waged an extremely strong campaign on the issue
of free trade. We were almost defeated on the issue, and this is
what enabled us—and I point this out to our colleague who used to
work in the finance and trade sector—to increase our exports from
$90 billion to $215 billion over a seven-year period.
Sight must not be lost of the money this brought into Canada for
the government. They had promised to abolish this measure. The
government campaigned on a platform of abolishing free trade. In
the end, this government embraced free trade with a vengeance.
Talk about an about-face. This takes the cake.
Let us not forget the GST. It was a disaster for us, the goods
and services tax. We knew at the time that it was the fairest
tax. It was the best route to take before starting on a major
tax reform to get the richest people contributing to the
government coffers. Obviously, a doctor or engineer earning
$50,000, $100,000, $150,000 or $200,000 will pay more GST than
someone who just gets the old age pension. That was precisely
the objective.
Tax shelters were considerably reduced. We knew it would not win
us any popularity contests, but we felt in all conscience that
when one has a country to administer, one must do so
objectively, and with the conviction that the best interest of
the country is being served.
Our ultimate goal was a comprehensive reform
of the tax system for individuals and small businesses. But what
did this government do? Absolutely nothing. They raised taxes,
40 tax increases for a total of $30 billion, a pretty
considerable amount, as well as several billions in cuts to
essential services. If we add on the considerable tax hikes and
the cuts in transfer payments to the provinces, we have our
answer. The deficit was attained at the expense of the poor and
of the individual taxpayer. Such is the policy of the present
government.
I could spend a couple of hours listing all of the tax increases
the present government has slipped in. There is nothing
surprising that nearly all the media reports state that Ottawa
is pocketing the savings and sticking the provinces with the
bill. That is how it is in all fields.
Our fellow citizens in every province are afraid to get sick,
because of the budget cuts, the cuts to transfer payments, made
without consulting the provincial governments.
Millennium scholarships have been created to benefit tens of
thousands of students, while thousands of children in primary
and secondary school no longer have even basic services. There
are schools that no longer have guidance counsellors, that no
longer have psychologists. They are trying to convince us that
they believe in the importance of education for our young people.
No way. They are making drastic cuts.
1955
When an organization like the OECD blames the shrinking of
available income after tax and the major brain drain in this
country on our overall tax policy, I think we should take heed.
We are told that our small businesses are no longer able to
reinvest because of our extremely regressive tax system, which
is aggressive to them, they not longer have the required net
assets to reinvest. I think this is serious.
Editorial writer Alain Dubuc said “Here is why Mr. Martin is no
longer credible”. These are not my words but those of an
editorial writer known from coast to coast. “In March 1997, the
minister announced that the deficit for fiscal year 1996-97, which
was ending, would be $19 billion.
It turned out to be $8.9 billion”. That is not a small
miscalculation; it is a huge one.
This was an error of $10.1 billion. Mr. Dubuc went on to say
“This did not stop Mr. Martin from once again announcing an
obviously unreasonable deficit of $17 billion for 1997-98. It
turned out to be a zero deficit. This is a $20.5 billion
miscalculation, and Ottawa anticipated expenditures like those
associated with the millennium fund”.
To establish such a fund when most provinces, and Quebec in
particular—we will speak for Quebec—have a very well organized
system, for the sole purpose of ensuring that recipients will see
that their cheques were issued by the federal government and not
to promote harmony, again this borders on provocation.
There are two major problems in Canada. In both cases,
provocation is involved.
On the constitutional issue, on numerous occasions over the past
30 years, Canadians agreed on proposals but, invariably, the
Liberal government was responsible for one failure after another.
Support for the sovereignist movement in Quebec has grown from 3%
originally to 50% today. Why? Because of provocation.
Fiscally, the federal government has yet again found a way to
use a budget to provoke the provincial governments. That takes
some doing. It could have said “We are for harmony and good
understanding; there is a little money left over, we will
transfer it to the various provincial governments; you are good
managers, you are close to your people, you will manage these
surpluses”. It did not even do that.
Instead, it arbitrarily—fancy that—established a new $3 billion
fund that cannot be used for another two years.
Again, it is only to create a little interest among those
concerned. But, in fact, these budget measures that do not favour
decentralization and do not respect other levels of government do
nothing but accentuate our problems.
Not only does the government base its economic intervention on
provocation, but it travels the world singing the praise of
economic missions. In my mind, the first economic mission that
the government must undertake is the Canadian economic mission.
For the whole world, Mr. Chrétien's government is in favour of
free trade, but not for Canada. Tariff barriers between the
provinces cost a fortune each year.
The time has come for businessmen from Chicoutimi, from Nova
Scotia, from Shefford, from New Brunswick, from all regions, to
travel across Canada with the various governments to create free
trade within our country.
I will tell you a secret. Do you know how many jobs a 10%
increase in interprovincial trade would create? Free trade
strictly within Canada would create 200,000 jobs. I think that if
there is an issue that needs to be addressed, it is the issue of
Canadian free trade. We must eliminate trade barriers between the
provinces.
2000
That is the reality the government must work on. It must stop
provoking all the provincial governments by creating new
programs without ever consulting them, or pretending that it is
consulting them through committees that travel across the
country, knowing full well that the Minister of Finance will not
listen to them. He is not interested in that. All he wants is to
write cheques for the millennium scholarships.
I do not think this is the road to the future. It seems to me
that when a party governs a country such as Canada, it must do it
a lot more selflessly than the Liberals are doing right now.
I was pleased to say a few words on the budget. We should also
have a long discussion on the growing problem of poverty in our
country.
People on welfare eat very poorly because of cuts in transfers.
[English]
Ms. Susan Whelan (Essex, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is a
pleasure to rise in the House of Commons this evening to
represent the people of the riding of Essex and to participate in
this economic development debate.
On February 24 we introduced our fifth budget. I am unsure if
this is the most important budget in our country's recent history
or if the distinction more rightly belongs to our government's
first budget which set the course that allowed us to be debating
today, for the first time in 28 years, a balanced budget and the
economic development that results from a balanced budget.
One thing I am sure of is that our Prime Minister and our
Minister of Finance deserve praise and thanks for restoring
fiscal sanity to our country's books and for ensuring the future
of Canada's children and grandchildren for years to come.
When we were first elected in 1993, the federal deficit stood at
$42 billion. It is sad but amazing to consider that prior to
this budget one in three Canadians, everyone under 27 years of
age, had never seen their federal government balance its books.
For the 1997-98 fiscal year there will be no deficit, for the
first time since 1970. This historic announcement that the
Government of Canada has recorded its first budgetary surplus in
28 years is great news for all Canadians.
I also want to extend praise and to thank all Canadians who
helped guide this government through the difficult task of
balancing the books.
One thing this government did different from previous
governments in addressing the deficit problem was to consult with
Canadians. I know full well from my experience as vice-chair of
the finance committee last year on how widespread those
consultations were and how seriously the Minister of Finance
viewed them. It is not just the finance committee that holds
prebudget meetings. Many individual members of Parliament also
do.
Each year since being elected in 1993 I have hosted prebudget
hearings in my riding. Each year I am pleased with the
articulate and well thought out presentations and how many of the
suggestions, which come up in similar meetings across the
country, are reflected in the budget. I held my fourth prebudget
consultation in the town of Essex on November 14, 1997. I would
like to read into the record my conclusion from that meeting.
“In conclusion, the one point on which there seemed to be
almost universal agreement was that the federal government should
be allocating financial resources and management to training and
to research. Although the debt was acknowledged as a problem, it
was not given priority over basic concerns for our social
programs, pension plans, health care and education”.
I would like to take a moment and compare that statement to the
1998 budget. One of the themes of my meetings was the need to
allocate financial resources and management to training and
education. This is certainly reflected in the 1998 budget.
In the budget the government introduced the Canadian
opportunities strategy which builds on actions in the 1996 and
1997 budgets and also introduces new measures. The Canada
millennium scholarship program is the centre of the Canadian
opportunities strategy. It is the single largest investment ever
made by a federal government to support access to post-secondary
education for all Canadians. Through an initial endowment of
$2.5 billion, the arm's length Canada millennium scholarship
foundation will provide scholarships to over 100,000 students
over 10 years.
Scholarships will go to help Canadians who need help financing
their studies and demonstrate merit. For full time students
scholarships will average $3,000 a year. Individuals can receive
up to $15,000 over a maximum of four academic years. The Canada
millennium scholarships could reduce the debt load that
recipients would otherwise face by half.
The government is also introducing Canada study grants. These
recognize that many students needs are not fully met by
scholarships and student loans. Beginning in 1998-99, Canada
student grants of up to $3,000 a year will go to over 25,000
needy students who have children or other dependents.
These grants will help both full time and part time students and
will cost up to $1 million annually.
2005
As we are aware, student debt has become a heavy burden for many
Canadians. In 1990 a graduate completing four years of
post-secondary education faced an average debt student loan of
$13,000. By next year the same graduate's average debt will
almost double to $25,000.
To deal with this problem, the budget proposes five things.
First, all students will get tax relief, 17% federal credit for
interest paid on their student loans. Second, we are increasing
the income threshold used to qualify for interest relief on
Canada's due loans by 9%. More graduates will be eligible.
Third, we are introducing graduated interest relief which will
extend assistance to more graduates further up the income scale.
Fourth, for individuals who have used 30 months of interest
relief, we will ask the lending institutions to extend the loan
repayment period to 15 years. Fifth, if after extending the
repayment period to 15 years a borrower remains in financial
difficulty, there will be an extended interest relief period.
Finally, for the minority of graduates who still remain in
financial difficulty after taking advantage of these relief
measures, we will reduce their student loan principal by as much
as almost half.
Another item in terms of training that often came up at my
prebudget hearings was that assistance needed to be targeted, not
just toward youth and students, but also to assist individuals
already in the workforce who needed to upgrade their skills.
Several new measures are proposed in this budget that will
improve Canadians' access to learning throughout their entire
lives. The first is tax-free RRSP withdrawals for life long
learning. At least six million Canadians have RRSPs with total
assets of $200 billion. This represents an important source of
funds. Beginning on January 1, 1999 Canadians will be able to
make tax-free withdrawals from their RRSPs for life long
learning.
An individual who has an RRSP and has enrolled in full time
training or higher education for at least three month during the
year will be eligible. An individual will also be able to
withdraw up to $10,000 a year tax free over a period of four
years to a maximum of $20,000.
To continue to upgrade knowledge and skills can be particularly
hard for the growing number of Canadians studying part time and
trying to manage the difficult balance of work, family and
studies. The 1998 budget proposes two measures to help them.
Beginning in 1998 the education credit will be extended to part
time students and, in addition, for the first time parents
studying part time will now be able to deduct their child care
expenses.
The Canadian opportunities strategy also addresses the urgent
problem of youth unemployment. The actions we are taking will
give young Canadians the job experience they need and provide
support for those who have dropped out of school and face
particularly tough challenges.
As well, the 1998 budget provides employers with an employment
insurance premium holiday for hiring additional young Canadians
in 1999 and the year 2000 between the ages of 18 and 24. This
will increase employment opportunities for youth and reduce
payroll costs for employers.
Second, investing a further $50 million in 1998-99, $75 million
in 1999-2000 and $100 million the year after will more than
double fund the youth at risk who lack basic education and
skills.
These programs do work. For example, there are several at work
in my riding currently. There were four youth centres in my
riding just last week which received $33,000 in funding to run
programs to assist young people, to help find employment, write
resumes and prepare for job interviews.
Another comment that came up during my prebudget hearing, not
just this year but over the last several years, was the need for
Canada to invest in research and development. As chair of the
industry committee, this is a theme very close to my heart.
Consequently, I was thrilled to see the 1998 budget provides
additional funding of $34 million annually for the national
research council industrial assistance program to help small and
medium size businesses as was announced in our election campaign
promises.
As well, the budget also makes available increased funding for
more than $400 million over three years for science research
granting councils: the medical research council, the national
science and engineering research council and the social science
and humanities research council: $120 million in 1998-99, $135
million in 1999-2000 and $150 million in 2000-2001, providing
invaluable service to Canada. This will encourage our best and
brightest to stay in Canada.
Again, similar to the concerns of my constituents, this budget
has proposed a rational approach to reducing national debt, and
to do so in a manner that does not put our social programs or
health care or education at risk. I know that in my home
province the premier has claimed the opposite.
2010
To set the record straight, I would like to quote a Southam
newspaper journalist, Andrew Coyne, who had little time for the
tired old provincial complaint about transfer cuts, pointing out
that “the total cut to federal cash transfers to the provinces
amounted to barely over 3% of total provincial revenues,
hardly draconian”.
In conclusion, I would like to outline for my constituents that
this budget also confirms a four year, $20 million Canada rural
partnership initiative. It will support programs, help rural
Canadians and communities to find and support maintaining good
soil and water and charting a successful course.
In conclusion, our budget has many stages and we go on into the
future. It delivers real benefits for Canadians today and a
great outlook for Canada as we start the new millennium.
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
this budget is very interesting in terms of the response that it
has had in my constituency. The members of my constituency have
seen through this budget very clearly. They have seen the
flimflam that is involved with it.
First, they are asking a very simple question, one of many. For
example, the finance minister is very proud to have eliminated
the deficit retirement surcharge for most Canadians. We note that
the finance minister has also eliminated the deficit. Under what
pretext does he continue to collect the deficit retirement
surcharge from any taxpayers? This is part of the flimflam.
Second, they are also aware of the fact, and this is according
to a news release from the Government of Canada dated March 9 on
supplementary estimates, that what Canadians may know is that
obviously there are estimates made as to what revenue and
expenditures we are going to have.
After the fact, there have to be adjustments to reflect reality.
They are also very well aware of this fact. The government
document calls for decreases in the expenditures, a decrease of
$4.5 billion in public debt charges from $46 billion printed in
the 1997-98 main estimates to $41.5 billion reflected in the
supplementary estimates.
I do not understand how this government can possibly take the
credit for the fact that world interest rates have declined. As
a result of the world interest rates declining, it has had a
windfall of $4.5 billion. That is part of its saving.
The document also talks about a decrease of $1.4 billion in
forecast employment insurance payments resulting from
improvements in labour market conditions. This government is
still taking $5 billion to $6 billion out of the pockets of
Canada's workers and Canada's employers in the form of a tax for
employment. In fact, if there was a decrease of $1.4 billion in
the forecast for employment insurance payments, surely there
should have been a decrease in the premium.
It is unconscionable that this government continues the practice
started by the Conservatives of including in general revenue the
so-called insurance rates under Employment Canada.
I am the heritage critic and I would like to deal specifically
with the heritage department.
Again in the supplementary estimates, we see that all of a
sudden they have had to ask for and have achieved an increase of
$59.9 million just for department expenses. That is over a one
year period. The department itself will now be spending $1.1
billion on itself.
The National Capital Commission is looking for and has received
an increase of $1.6 million. The National Capital Commission is
now budgeted to spend $72.7 million, up $1.6 million. The
National Film Board, an increase of $2.4 million, now up to a
rate of $61.4 million.
This kind of spending we know about because it has ended up in
supplementary estimates. It must drive most Canadian taxpayers
wild.
2015
Why in the world must we have constant increases in spending
while at the same time there is a meagre, tiny turnback of tax
revenue for Canadians? Canadians want to know why we must have
these increases.
Let us look at one specific area of Canadian heritage, that of
sports. It is interesting to note the comments made by Ms. Lori
Johnstone, the chair of Athletes Canada, to the committee a
couple of weeks ago. She was commenting on the Nagano Winter
Olympics which were held at that time. She said:
It's very exciting. There's a lot of interest and emotion. At
the send-off in Calgary, (the heritage minister) thanked the
athletes for letting us share the dream. These athletes are
representing our nation and we are sharing in their successes and
their failures, their disappointments, their joy and also their
controversies.
She went on to say about the athletes:
In terms of sacrifices, the cost question was asked earlier, the
cost of pursuing the dream and roughly, athletes at an elite
level can incur as much as $10,000 per year of their
national—dream. When you combine that with the income that
most amateur national team athletes make, which tends to be under
$15,000, it's quite a powerful statement of the willingness to
make sacrifices to pursue the dream.
As a matter of faith it strikes me that the heritage minister,
and indeed the whole government, should respect the fact that we
have some of the world's finest athletes in Canada. They go to
world events to compete for us. Not only do they make
themselves, their parents, their sponsors and their coaches proud
but they make us as Canadians proud. And what do they get?
I quote from an article published today in the Globe and
Mail in Toronto entitled “Canadian athletes want shirts to
pin medals on”:
Six months from the opening of the 16th Commonwealth Games in
Kuala Lumpur, Canada's team is outfitted with 400 airline
tickets—and perhaps 400 fig leaves.
The Commonwealth Games Association of Canada is about $1.5
million short of its budget of $3 million to take a full team to
the Games and the team hasn't a stitch to wear.
“Clothing is what we need, big time,” says Margie Schnell, the
chef de mission for the Canadian team. The games will be held
Sept. 10-20 in Malaysia.
“It will cost about $6,000 per athlete to outfit and send the
team. Air Canada and Malaysian Airlines are looking after most
of the travel, but we still don't have clothes”.
This compares with the question I asked in the House on Monday.
I asked where the Minister responsible for Francophonie got the
idea that she could arbitrarily, off the top of her head,
determine that she was going to offer free airline tickets to
foreign athletes to come to Ottawa-Hull for the Francophonie
games in the year 2001.
At the time she made that commitment she new the Ottawa-Hull
games were budgeted by the federal government for an expenditure
of $12 million. She also found out that it was likely
Ottawa-Hull would not get the games, that Lebanon would get the
games with the backing of France. The reason she thought Lebanon
would get the games was that it was offering to pay half the
airfare for the athletes to go to Lebanon.
What did our minister do? This comes right back to the starting
point of my speech. Where did these extra expenditures come
from? How did they happen?
Off the top of her head she suddenly said “Why don't we give
free airfare to all the foreign athletes so they can come to
Canada?” We are talking about 42 countries and probably 2,000
athletes. We do not know how many millions of dollars it would
cost to get them here. Meanwhile back at the ranch our Canadian
athletes do not even have uniforms to pin their medals on. It is
absolutely ludicrous.
Furthermore, in a report to parliament from the International
Assembly of Parliamentarians of French Language on February 17 I
noted that some prize winners at the earlier games, that is at
the Francophonie games, have still not even claimed their prizes.
2020
I would like to know the priority of the government. Is the
priority of the government to get foreign athletes to come to
Canada? Indeed, should the priority of the government not be our
athletes? They are contributing money from their own pockets.
They are contributing their time, effort and sweat to represent
us as Canadians. The priority of the government should be to
properly look after our athletes.
I cite this as one example of a thousand stories I could tell to
illustrate how the government is completely out of control. The
government has no idea where it is going. All it knows is that
it has a blank cheque. Guess what? That cheque was signed by
Canadian taxpayers and the government is spending it.
Mr. John McKay (Scarborough East, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise in the House tonight to add my congratulations to the
Minister of Finance on the balanced budget. Not only did he
balance the budget but he brought in a budget with balance.
Governing is more than merely making the books balance. If you
are not fiscally responsible you will soon not have a nation to
govern.
I am one of those who thought that debt reduction should be the
first priority. After 30 years of running deficits it seemed to
me that getting our fiscal house in order was the highest
priority. I heard that at the door. I heard it at three town
hall forums. I heard it by way of correspondence and I heard it
in my office. The people of Scarborough East repeatedly said to
me that debt reduction was the highest priority.
I communicated those views to the minister and to the Prime
Minister, privately and in caucus. I was therefore pleased to
see the commitment of the minister to debt reduction. It is
something to be celebrated.
The budget documents that the debt for fiscal year 1997-98 will
be $583 billion. That is a serious amount of money by anyone's
standards.
The debt is divided into two components: market debt and
non-market debt. Approximately $477 billion or 80% of the debt
is in fact market debt. Because the total is so high our
percentage of GDP is approximately 73.1%, which has since been
revised down to about 71%. Some market analysts actually put our
GDP to debt ratio at about 68%, primarily due to the growth in
the economy.
We will recall recently that when the Prime Minister was in New
York he chastized money market traders who buy and sell the
Canadian dollar. He called them the men in red suspenders. He
was upset because Canada's fiscal house was in order, the
fundamentals were the best of all the G-7 nations, and yet the
dollar continued to be discounted.
Unfortunately our debt is high relative to our G-7 partners and
the traders have noticed. We have no choice but to commit
ourselves to a steady reduction in the absolute amount of the
debt.
Some economists feel that the economy will grow us out of our
debt difficulties. However, if one is to commit oneself to the
virtuous circle, one needs to make an absolute commitment to debt
reduction.
With the greatest respect, I do not believe that merely letting
the economy grow us out of our difficulties is an answer. There
are at least two significant reasons beyond interest rate
fluctuations for that view. The first is the diminished size and
role of government in the lives of Canadians. The second is the
wild card effect of a rogue provincial government.
When the people in red suspenders look at Canada they are not
only looking at federal government debt. They are looking at
national debt. The provinces contribute to the national debt. In
fact, if we add the provincial debt to the federal debt, it
virtually adds up to 100% of the gross domestic product.
If every man, woman and child worked in this country for an
entire year they might pay off the debt.
2025
Canadians have been saying in a variety of ways that there is
too much government and too much overlap. In some measure the
government has listened and has devolved or even abandoned areas
of jurisdiction to other levels of government. The House has
vociferously debated those things, but even after the cacophony
has died down this is a reduced federal government, a reduced
entity.
The net effect of the role of government, therefore, in terms of
GDP is a reduced role. The government plays a significantly
reduced role in the gross domestic product and the red suspenders
crowd has noticed.
Another reality is the role of provincial government national
debt. New Brunswick, Saskatchewan and Alberta have all balanced
their budgets and are not contributing to the debt. However I
cannot say that for Ontario.
Ontario will over the course of the mandate of the current
government add $30 billion to the national debt. It is a charter
member of the flat earth society. It expects that the provincial
economy will grow its way out of its difficulties. This is a
terrible waste of a time of prosperity. It is as if we have
learned nothing. We have learned nothing from the Mulroney years
where there were periods of prosperity which were squandered.
The men in red suspenders have taken note and Canada does not
get enough respect, a la Rodney Dangerfield, because Canada is
far from out of the woods when it comes to the management of the
national debt.
The federal government, to its credit, paid down $13 billion of
market debt last year. In addition, it did not go to the market
for any new debt. It reduced the ratio of foreign debt as a per
capita and a per cent of the overall federal debt. It is on the
way to becoming a master of its own house.
However, certain provinces have not seen the light, in
particular the province of Ontario. The good efforts of the
federal government may well be offset by those provinces. The
men in red suspenders, I anticipate, will have a few more
profitable years.
The federal government wants the ratio down from 73% over the
course of the mandate to a low 60% or 50%. A number of private
forecasters have in fact said that will happen. For instance,
CIBC-Wood Gundy predicts that even if the contingency reserve is
not used there will be an absolute reduction in the net debt by
about $20 billion over the next two budget years.
Instead of a debt to GDP ratio of something in the order of 70%,
it will be down around 59.7% according to that private
forecaster. It is good news indeed and something that the red
suspenders crowd should notice. However, it will not have any
impact on the dollar unless provinces make similar commitments.
Spending one's way to prosperity does not work. Tax cutting
one's way is equally foolish.
Books that balance is a laudable achievement but a balanced
approach to debt reduction makes the budget even better. Building
into the budget a contingency is prudent. Committing to debt
reduction on a straight line basis is even more prudent.
Diminishing the per cent of debt to GDP is more prudent again.
However, balancing to other compelling priorities is the most
prudent thing a government can do, and to heck with the red
suspenders crowd.
Mr. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I am pleased I am not wearing my red suspenders this evening. I
congratulate my colleague from Scarborough East for some
thoughtful comments on the budget, on the state of the economy
and on where we are going.
2030
I want to specifically talk this evening about one page in this
budget that I think is equally as telling and equally as
important in laying out what this government thinks about turning
the economy around and moving forward. It is page 127. While I
certainly would agree with my friend and my colleagues who have
spoken about the significance of a balanced budget and what that
will do to the overall economy, what happened on page 127 will go
an enormous way toward bringing fairness to our economy and
increasing the revenue not only for the federal government but
for the provincial government which we constantly hear talking
about how it has been cut back and it is always moaning, at least
in the case of the province of Ontario, which my friend has
referred to.
The reality is page 127 of this budget will indeed put more
money in the hands of Ernie Eves in the province of Ontario and
all provinces. Perhaps even more important than that, it will
put more money in the hands of average Canadians. The heading is
Tax Fairness: Tackling the Underground Economy.
There have been studies done on the underground economy. We all
know what we are talking about. If you do this for cash we will
not pay the taxes. We will give you a special deal if we pay you
under the table. We know this goes on. We also know, and I
think we should admit, that a tax regime that is too high and
does not put fairness into the system will drive the economy
underground.
Page 127 in my estimation goes a long way toward tackling and
fighting the battle of the underground economy. It goes on as
follows:
Tax evasion through participation in the underground
economy penalizes honest taxpayers. The federal government has a
comprehensive strategy for addressing this problem. This budget
announces additional measures to reduce the underreporting of
income.
Federal departments and agencies will begin issuing
information slips for contract payments made from January 1, 1998
as will federal crown corporations effective January 1, 1999.
The various associations involved in the construction industry
have been concerned with competition from the underground economy
for some time.
I might add that it is the construction industry that actually
tackled the underground economy head on. It came united with the
private sector, with the labour movement and with academia. It
came united to this place and said it had a plan that will fight
tax evasion in the underground economy. This was not something
that was dreamed up in the finance department. It was not
something dreamed up by a committee of parliamentarians. It came
from the men and women who work in the industry on all sides. I
really congratulate them for their foresight.
The budget page goes on:
In response to their concerns, the 1995 budget implemented a
voluntary reporting system for the construction industry.
More recently, key industry associations, including the building
and construction trade department of the AFL-CIO and the Interior
Systems Contractor's Association of Ontario, have indicated that
the reporting system to be effective needs to be made mandatory.
The private sector and the unions came forward and said
voluntary is not working, they need this to be a mandatory
reporting system.
In conclusion on this page:
Effective January 1, 1999, reporting of construction contract
payments to Revenue Canada will become mandatory. The federal
government will consult with industry to ensure that any industry
compliance costs are minimized and the system is effective.
In perhaps a little more plain English what this simply means is
that if contractor A wins a contract for $1 million and decides
to sub it out to three contractors, B, C and D, for $300,000 each
and pocket $100,000 for doing it, that is perfectly legal. We
have no problem with that. What this budget change will do is
ensure that contractor A must not only say that he has offloaded
$900,000 worth of revenue but now in a mandatory prescription he
must say who exactly he is paying it to.
2035
Heretofore what would happen is that contractors B, C and D
would have the option of taking that $300,000 in cash, maybe even
discounting it and doing the work for $250,000 and avoiding
taxes.
We are not just talking about a sales tax. We are talking about
the ability to avoid employer health tax which would be an
enormous loss in revenue to the provincial government here in
Ontario. We are talking about an ability to avoid worker's
compensation premiums, extremely important particularly in the
construction industry.
What this does is give some security and some assurance to the
men and women who work in the construction industry and let us
face it, most are men but there are also more and more women
coming into the business. It gives them the assurance that they
need not worry about getting injured on the job and then finding
out that their employer ducked the responsibility of paying the
workers compensation premiums.
It really makes the entire process transparent. I think it is
an enormous step to put this mandatory reporting system in place.
I think we will see over time. Rather than simply guessing at the
figures, I think we should monitor this and the people in finance
should monitor this to see exactly what it does to the revenue
base of this country.
It is my belief right across the country we will see an increase
but we will also see greater protection for our workers. One of
the reasons that this is important is there are tens of thousands
of people who work in this business in the construction trades.
Whether we are talking about carpenters, electricians, boiler
makers, pipefitters, formers, we are talking about labourers, it
is tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of men and women
across this country.
Until this change was brought in by the minister of finance in
this budget, they were simply at the mercy of some of the
companies. Not all of them were. I do not want to cast
aspersions across a broad perspective or suggest that everybody
in the construction business is avoiding taxes. I do not think
that is true. I do not think that is fair.
This amendment came about as a result of the efforts of people
like Joe Maloney with the Construction and Building Trades
Council here in Ottawa. A number of people along with Joe, his
colleagues, did their homework. They explained to us on this
side of the house how important it was.
I know one of the concerns was that business would come out and
say you cannot do this, it is more red tape for business. But
ask a simple question. If a business does not want to disclose a
contract that it just received the question is why. What is it
trying to hide? What is it trying to avoid? There really is
nowhere to hide in this. It is transparent and it is fair.
On the issue of what it means in our communities, let me just
tell a little about my riding Mississauga West which is
fundamentally a bricks and mortar economy. Certainly we depend
on the auto industry, just like many other parts of this great
country, and we depend on software companies. We are known for
pill hill where all the pharmaceutical companies are, in the
north end of my riding.
We are, if nothing else, a bricks and mortar economy and as the
construction trades win a contract they then put into practice a
process that leads to the development of new communities,
industrial, residential communities. Out of that comes everything
a family needs when it moves into a home, everything a business
needs when it opens in a new industrial complex, and it goes on
and on.
It is a snowball rolling downhill and it all starts with an
amendment like the one on page 127 which brings fairness to the
economy, which helps to fight the underground economy, ensure
that employees, hardworking men and women in the construction
trades, are protected, and ensure that government gets its fair
share so that we can continue to provide the services Canadians
want and indeed deserve.
2040
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to take part in the debate
this evening. My speech will reflect what my constituents think
of the budget.
I asked my constituents whether this budget was supportive of
regional development or not. The first finding is that it is a
standardizing budget. The government decided to treat all the
regions of the country in the same way, regardless of their
specific circumstances. The only exception is northern Ontario.
Everywhere else in the country, the proposed measures have a
standardizing effect.
Yet, in the case of the employment insurance surplus, the
government could have said “Some regions are in a more difficult
situation as regards employment. We will show some innovative
spirit”. For example, the government could have allowed
businesses and employees in high unemployment areas to stop
paying employment insurance premiums and make up for the lost
premiums by dipping into the surplus. After all, it is these
workers and these employers, along with those of the other
regions of Canada, who generated this surplus. The government
could have allowed people in high unemployment areas to stop
paying premiums, so as to promote employment. But there are no
such initiatives. There are no specific measures to give all
Canadians the same opportunities to find work.
The budget reflects a neoliberal philosophy. It is in keeping
with the practice started by the Conservatives and perpetuated by
this government, by the current Minister of Finance, to the
effect that the market will regulate everything. We see the
result of this reliance on the market.
We now have a situation where there is high unemployment in some
regions, in spite of an improved economy.
The situation of some people is getting worse all the time. More
and more people end up on welfare, mainly because of the
restrictive employment insurance rules put in place by this
government, as part of its fight against the deficit. We now have
a surplus, but the government refuses to budge. Those who made
sacrifices are not the ones eligible for the benefits generated
by this surplus, and I think the government will be judged very
severely on this issue.
The millennium scholarship fund is another element which I
considered in the context of regional development. Will this
fund be a good thing for Canadian regions?
We have to realize that the province of Quebec has developed an
education system where regional universities, such as the
Université du Québec in Chicoutimi, for instance, or in my region
of Rimouski, and the general and vocational colleges called
cegeps are funded by the provincial budget, a part of which is
made up of transfer payments coming from the federal government.
For example, since 1994, for each dollar the Quebec government
has had to cut, 75 cents were because of the decrease in federal
transfer payments. This year, we had hoped that with the surplus
the provinces would get a break and receive more money for health
and education. But that is not the case.
What really upset our regions was to see that the surplus was
used for the millennium scholarship fund.
A marvellous program that will provide grants to students,
mostly in the other nine provinces, where the student debt level
is very high. These grants will surely be welcomed. In Quebec,
however, we already have a student loans and grants program. We
already provide grants, which explains why the average student
debt in Quebec is $11,000 compared to $25,000 in the rest of the
country.
One can understand why the residents of the nine other provinces
have asked for a grants program, such as the one that has been in
place in Quebec sine 1964. The program is in place. On this
issue, the sovereignists, the Liberal Party of Quebec, the
student federations, university presidents, all of the
stakeholders in education want the same thing. They want the
money to go to the Quebec government so that it can be added to
the existing program which—the evidence is there—is the best
one to keep the student debt load down and to provide well
balanced funding in the area of education.
So, millennium scholarships will be granted to students, but
where will these students choose to study? If the Université du
Québec in Rimouski does not have the necessary funding to ensure
its future, if it is unable to develop interesting programs to
attract the students, these students will go and study outside
their native areas.
It is like the Hygrade sausage complex. The less money
universities have to offer interesting programs, the less
students go to these universities and the less funding these
universities will get.
2045
It is this vicious circle that the government should have broken
by putting money back into transfer payments. However, this is
not in the budget. Therefore, it is a budget against regional
development.
I was saying this was because of standardization; I am also
saying this is because of the federal government's intrusion in
the education sector, as there is no other reason for it than
visibility.
Indeed, the prime minister has admitted here, in response to a
question by the member for Lac-Saint-Jean, that the government was
doing this so that people could see where the money was coming
from.
This could have been done in another fashion. The government
could have given the money to Quebec and ensured it was known
that it was coming from transfer payments. This type of situation
was uncalled for. It is a bit like someone who owns a house. You
have maintenance expenses to pay, you have made plans to repaint
it and, all of a sudden, there is money coming from someone else,
from an inheritance or some other source. You are told that, with
this money, you will have to build a chimney, a fireplace. You
say this is not what you need, that you have to repaint the
house. The person who lends you the money says that it is for the
chimney and nothing else. This is not doing a favour to the
homeowner.
It is the same thing here. The federal government is not doing a
favour to the provinces by not allowing them to get some money
for their education and health sectors. This has a major negative
impact in our regions. This further contributes to depopulate the
regions. Students will go elsewhere and we will have less chance
of seeing them come back home.
I think there is a principle here that this government did not
put forward at the beginning. Quebeckers and Canadiens had the
right to live in their region, to develop the human and financial
resources available to them, and to promote interesting life
environments, without people being displaced from one end of the
country to another for no reason. The market alone must not
dictate what happens. This cannot be the choice to be made in our
society. There again, the budget is not interesting.
The holiday on EI premiums for emplloyers hiring 18 to 24 year
olds is a pretty good thing in terms of visibility but in reality
it could have consequences for a small business with only four,
five or six employees. What small business will create a job
paying $20,000 or $25,000 a year in exchange for a premium
holiday of $800? This is not the way to generate growth of the
economy.
What was needed was a more general reduction of premiums
representing a significant amount of money for a business. This
would have generated enough growth to promote job creation. A
small business of 20 employees that could save $10,000, $12,000
or $15,000 in EI premiums would be interested in creating jobs.
The government could also have also required that the premium
holiday be applied to the hiring of young people. This could have
been an interesting requirement but the government's initiative
lacks that kind of originality.
The last thing I would like to say is that as early last
January, I told my constituents to watch to see whether the
government would introduce measures in the coming budget to
address the issue of poverty. There again, the government has
failed. It does not get a passing grade. The most effective way
for the government to address poverty would have been to improve
the conditions of the employment insurance program and allow
people to maintain an acceptable standard of living between
jobs.
This week, we had clear evidence. Almost 750,000 people,
including 200,000 in Quebec alone, had to go on welfare in Canada
because the employment insurance program was not adequate or did
not provide an acceptable standard of living. The areas with high
unemployment were particularly hard hit. I think there is nothing
in the budget to address poverty effectively.
I believe that in this year's budget, the federal government
missed a fantastic opportunity to give their due to those people
who had contributed to the fight against the deficit and to go
back to a value traditionally shared by Quebeckers and Canadians,
that is a fair distribution of wealth. The budget lacks those
elements. For these reasons, I believe that the Minister of
Finance should go back to the drawing board.
In particular, I call upon the Minister of Human Resources
Development to review the employment insurance reform so that
such measures can be implemented in the future. There is a lot of
money in the fund, and each year the surplus will be $6 billion.
There will be a $25 billion surplus at the beginning of the
year 2000.
I will end on that. The government has a chance to go back to
square one and ensure fairness in the future, otherwise
Quebeckers and Canadians could continue to judge the government's
budget very severely.
2050
[English]
Ms. Louise Hardy (Yukon, NDP): Mr. Speaker, a close
examination of the budget reveals to Canadians that this budget
fails point by point and initiative by initiative to live up to
the expectations and the needs of the Canadian people.
In education, providing only 7% of the nation's students with
benefits of the proposed millennium fund, which will be
administered by the CEO of Chrysler, for industry to train people
for industry ignores the role that education plays in our
society.
Instead of reinstating funding for post-secondary institutions,
the Liberals have chosen to dole out some money which is
desperately needed to a few students who are cash starved and
then to offer advice to them on how to manage their debt. They
are ignoring the student debt crisis and advancing our
educational institutions at an alarming rate.
Even the Yukon, a very poor area of Canada, has recognized the
importance of investing in education and for over 20 years has
provided approximately $5,000 for each of its graduating students
accepted at an accredited institution. Part of that is for
travel and part is for tuition and books.
This is a really poor area of the country that through thick and
thin has provided that amount of funding for students. I believe
the federal government should match that as well as provide
funding for the institutions to make sure that our students and
our young people have a place to go and be educated.
The modest increases in transfer payments to the provinces and
territories do not begin to restore the cuts made in 1994. The
Liberal government is only giving back a small portion of what
was taken from Canadian people.
Saddest of all, this budget ignores the poor people of our
country. It has nothing for the poor and the minimal tax breaks
announced will for most families amount to less than $500 in tax
relief a year.
It will not take the elderly poor off the tax rolls. Over and
over members of my community ask why, when they get so little,
they have to pay so much in taxes. That is income taxes and the
GST. People are struggling to make ends meet. Gone are the days
when the single income would support a family.
This budget is a reflection of free enterprise government, a
government willing to transfer responsibilities for governing
this country to large, private corporations or business
associations.
The Liberals have created fundamental shifts in the building
blocks of this Canadian society. Canada is running toward a
society where the protection of profits and corporate rights are
paramount to the protection of our individual rights, our
culture, our health, our social and our educational institutions.
This budget confirms the direction of policies that select a few
to thrive and prosper while the rest sink and suffer. An
important aspect that we are missing in the debate is the
original causes of the huge government deficit.
The finance minister stated that never again will we let old
habits return of defining bigger government as better government
or believing that every problem requires another program.
What is happening is the denying of anything more than a minimal
role for government in the economy and a minimal role for
governing our country, a government that believes only private
companies and market forces will bring employment and prosperity
to Canadians. This is not true. It has brought only poverty,
not prosperity.
The liberal Conservatives or conservative Liberals running the
government are believers in high unemployment but low in stable
inflation and low in stable interest rates as the tools for
profit oriented companies looking to take over the role of
government in society.
The Minister of Finance is preaching a misleading hypothesis
that deficits have been caused by extravagant, big-spending
government and the only cure was to cut back. Who was cut was
the poor and middle class.
The deficit came from high interest rates, overspending and
support for very big business and high unemployment. A
Statistics Canada study indicated that the rise in deficits came
mainly from high interest rates to a Bank of Canada obsession
with zero inflation.
An Alberta former civil servant explanation of the deficit is
government overspending on business support while slashing health
and education that was the real cause of the deficit.
2055
Montreal economist Harold Chorney argues that high unemployment
with its loss of revenues and social costs has created far more
debt than social spending. The above explanation seems to be
shared by the finance minister who said that only a quarter of
the savings that cut the deficit came from program cuts. Far
more were due to low interest rates, growth and raiding the UI
funds.
There is no balanced budget with the present government
policies. There was a drastic shift of federal government
deficit to the provinces through federal transfer cuts, then to
municipalities and finally to individual Canadian families. We
see the consequences of these policies in our health system, our
education system, in UI benefits that are no longer available, in
housing that is no longer there and in the total loss of a whole
generation of young Canadians.
Canadian priorities and the priorities of the NDP are being
ignored by Liberals. There are no new job strategies, no support
for education or health infrastructure and no indication of a
fair tax system. Our priorities for the federal budget are to
make full employment the primary goal of government and to make a
real commitment to addressing the cost of education. It is not a
sustainable policy to provide a student with small financial
relief if the universities are not being funded and are forced to
increase tuition costs to counter government cutbacks.
We want strategic investment to rebuild health care and targeted
direct tax relief. This government must stop taxing the poor and
the elderly who live below the poverty line. We want targets for
the elimination of child poverty as many countries do not accept
the level of poverty we accept. Our country is wealthy and we do
not have to accept poverty in our midst. We want to rebalance
taxes to achieve greater fairness and advance broader goals. We
want to see government bring the people of Canada to the centre
of government policies.
Between 1993-94 and 1996-97 government budgetary revenues
increased by $24.9 billion. Of this increase, 48% was due to
personal income tax. Corporations through corporate income tax
paid $7.6 billion or just 30%, a clear indication that the
federal government is squeezing the people of this country.
To reward Canadians for their individual contributions to the
reduction of the federal deficit, the government reduced federal
cash transfers to the provinces for health care, education and
social assistance from $18.7 billion to a floor of $12.5 billion.
The Yukon has already faced a reduction of 11% in just one year
which comes at the very time of a major closing of a mine in the
Yukon and absolutely devastates its economy. The federal
government is not willing to do anything to recognize the
hardship and strife of Yukoners. This is compounded by changes to
the EI system where people are not eligible and will not be
relocated out of the north to places where they can work.
Canadian living standards are falling. An ever increasing slice
of the family budget is consumed by income tax. Twenty-two per
cent of Canadian families spend their budget on income tax. The
federal government has been taking a bigger slice of Canadians'
income but there are still hundreds of rich Canadians who are
very good at not paying taxes.
Recent figures indicate that 230 individuals who earned at least
a quarter of a million dollars did not pay income tax. Another
1,520 who earned between $100,000 to $250,000 a year did not pay
any tax. These figures provide a very good picture of the
growing disparities in our country. It is clear that the
Liberals are not reinforcing the foundations of an egalitarian
society at all.
The minister needs to look back to students with high debts and
no jobs, back to those waiting for surgery, back to working
Canadians who are slipping economically and socially, to those
who are not working and who cannot even get UI. The federal
government says that it has won the war on the deficit but its
policies are based on the need to make corporations profitable
while the social and economic costs are not a concern.
Let history record that the Liberals tore up the just
fundamentals of our society and that the deficit was defeated on
the backs of Canadian people and the fundamental tenets of a
caring society.
2100
Numbers and words say this budget is balanced, but is our
country balanced? Poor regions are sinking into poverty and they
are taking the young and elderly with them. This budget makes
sure it will stay that way.
Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise in this debate.
My remarks by coincidence are going to dovetail to a certain
extent the remarks of the member for Mississauga West. The
member was commenting that one of the provisions in the budget is
the mandatory reporting of construction contracts which would
help solve some of the problems of the multibillion dollar
underground economy.
The member for Mississauga West was saying that this change in
the budget came as a result of lobbying by members of the
construction industry, the unions and so forth. I do not doubt
that these groups lobbied, but I happen to know that a colleague
of the member for Mississauga West, the member for Mississauga
South, was a very strong champion throughout the previous
Parliament in addressing the issue of the underground economy.
Indeed he moved a private member's motion that addressed among
other things the possibility of bringing transparency to the
reporting of construction contracts as a means of solving the
problem of GST evasion.
This is one of the things I like about the budget. We on all
sides of the House should admire this budget as it is very much
the MPs' budget. As we look through it we find many instances
where the finance minister has heard MPs and made the appropriate
changes.
I am thinking for example of the restoration of funding to the
Medical Research Council. There was an enormous movement inside
the Liberal caucus asking for this funding to be restored. I do
not doubt that members on the opposite side also campaigned to
restore this funding.
Similarly there was a concern on all sides of the House about
the problem of student debt. This budget has provisions which
will help alleviate the problem to some extent for students who
have found themselves burdened with enormous debts at the
conclusion of their studies.
I too had input into the budget and had hoped that the finance
minister was listening to me. I must say that after reading the
budget I was disappointed to a certain degree because I have long
been a champion of cutting back on the GST. Reducing the GST by
even one percentage point in my view would be a very positive
saving for Canadians, particularly because of the underground
economy. In the previous Parliament I was very concerned about
the amount of money that was being lost to government coffers and
to the economy at large because of unreported work and the
resulting unpaid taxes.
I was disappointed for a short while in what I found in the
budget, but then I encountered that portion of the budget which
dealt with the elimination of the 3% surtax for all those
Canadians earning incomes of less than $50,000. The more I
looked at this provision, the more I realized the government had
come up, if I may say so, with its own novel answer to some of my
own concerns. I do not remember at any time before the budget
was actually brought down a debate at least in my own caucus
about getting rid of the 3% surtax.
When we examine this initiative we can see that there is some
genuine wisdom on the part of the government. By limiting the
elimination of the tax to 13 million Canadians whose income is
less than $50,000, what we are in effect doing is putting more
money in the pockets of not only less better off Canadians but
also younger Canadians.
The reality is that those who earn more than $50,000 are likely
to be the more affluent Canadians and more likely older Canadians
who have established households. They have boxed their worldly
wealth and are probably enjoying retirement and perhaps leaving
the country to take holidays down south.
Younger Canadians on the other hand, those earning less than
$50,000 are the ones who are going to be buying consumer goods.
They are going to be buying automobiles, refrigerators and new
homes. They are going to be stimulating construction.
2105
When we think of the elimination of the surtax in this context,
that it actually puts money back into the pockets of consumers,
what we see is a very efficient way of not only stimulating the
economy but getting maximum value for the tax cut dollar which
has been put in place.
When these young people buy things, it creates jobs. It creates
employment. It creates salaries for people who will in turn pay
taxes. The tax cut which is involved in eliminating the 3%
surtax has enormous repercussions throughout the economy.
Particularly after the remarks of the member for Mississauga
West, I realize that the government in its wisdom has found a
better solution than I had thought of with respect to the
underground economy. It is stimulating younger Canadians to
purchase by eliminating the surtax instead of simply taking a
percentage point off the GST. That would have been an across the
board tax cut. It would not have been half as effective as
eliminating the 3% surtax.
It is very important not only to praise the government and to
look at what was done in this budget, but also to look ahead. We
have to tell the finance minister at this early stage what we
would like to see in the next budget.
I regret that sometimes the opposition members focus only on
criticizing what is already on the table and what is already very
good. They should be looking at this debate as an opportunity to
make suggestions to the finance minister on what we can do next
year. He listens.
In fact I will give an offhand compliment to the Reform Party.
The Reform Party embarked in 1993 on a deficit reduction platform
and continued the deficit reduction campaign. If the NDP had
been the official opposition, there is no doubt in my mind that
the finance minister would have perhaps within his own caucus had
more of a struggle with the very good and tough medicine he came
up with. Even the Reform Party shares in the success of the
finance minister's budget, and so it should be.
Let us look ahead. I am very interested in finding novel ways
in which to make the economy run more efficiently. One of those
ways is for the government to address those sectors of the
economy which have been overlooked for decades. One of those
sectors is the not for profit sector.
Some people would be amazed to realize that the Canada Business
Corporations Act has fairly stringent reporting requirements for
profit companies, yet it requires virtually nothing of not for
profit companies. For example, not for profit companies are not
required to prepare financial reports on an annual basis, as are
for profit companies. There are no standards set for not for
profit companies to prepare financial reports for their own
members. There are problems.
Some of the not for profit companies are very large. Many
charities are not for profit companies. Large entities such as
the Canadian Automobile Association are not for profit companies.
These companies take in millions of dollars a year, yet the
government requires no financial reporting to government of their
activities. There are no mandatory standards on how these not
for profit companies should report to their memberships.
It is amazing to realize that the Canada Business Corporations
Act does not even require not for profit companies to use a
qualified accountant or auditor to prepare financial statements
for their members. Literally anyone can do them. There is a lack
of transparency. I could go on.
2110
Even Revenue Canada has no way of adequately tracking the
financial activities of not for profit companies. Such reports
as are required of these companies to Revenue Canada are not
public documents.
I would like to see the federal government take careful aim in
the next budget at the not for profit sector and rewrite the
Canada Business Corporations Act. It should require of the not
for profit sector the same standards of financial transparency as
are required of the for profit sector. Since the not for profit
sector deals with an area of the economy in the billions of
dollars, I think it would be a very positive measure for the next
budget.
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC): Mr. Speaker, it is
with pleasure that I have this opportunity to speak on the 1998
budget.
This budget represents a lost opportunity for Canadians. It is
a lost opportunity for us to actually change course in the
direction we have had within our economy.
I will be speaking over the next 10 minutes about our plan for
growth and what we should have seen in the budget. It is the
plan presented by the member for Sherbrooke, the leader of the
Progressive Conservative Party of Canada. He is someone who will
be the best prime minister we will ever see in this country in a
few years from now.
We need a plan for growth in this economy. A plan for growth
based on less tax and less debt will ultimately mean more jobs
and more money back into the pockets of Canadians.
Budgets are supposed to be a reflection of our values and our
priorities. I find it very difficult to understand that this
budget has not provided tax relief to the middle and lower income
Canadians. By that I mean as a society, within this budget we are
saying it is acceptable to tax someone who makes $7,000 per year,
$14,000 less than the poverty line. We are saying as Canadians
that it is acceptable to tax those individuals.
We need a plan to grow our economy so that more individuals,
middle and lower income earners, can actually participate in the
economy to the degree they are capable of doing it.
It is not just the Progressive Conservative Party that actually
understands that we need a plan for growth in our economy. I
would like to make reference to a press release sent out by the
Canadian Chamber of Commerce on February 24, shortly after the
budget. The Canadian Chamber of Commerce challenged the
government to draw up a detailed fiscal framework for the new
millennium based on clear criteria for growth, competitiveness
and opportunity rather than arbitrary commitments to allocate
half the surplus to spending and half to debt reduction and tax
relief. We need to deal with it more strategically.
I am speaking on behalf of the citizens of Fundy—Royal.
Actually the chairman of the board of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, Gerry
Pond, happens to be a Fundy—Royal resident. What he is saying
can actually be incorporated with the initiatives we have put
forth in this budget.
Before we actually start talking about a surplus or perceived
fiscal dividend, I think it is very healthy for us to actually
examine whether we have a surplus in the first place.
Members probably know as they may have heard when we were out
campaigning back in the month of May leading up to the election
on June 2 that there is a $14 billion accumulated surplus in the
employment insurance fund, $14 billion. I know the member from
Kings—Hants and the member from Chicoutimi understand that that
money belongs in the pockets of Canadian taxpayers. The chief
actuary for the EI fund maintains that the EI fund is sustainable
at $2 per $100 of insurable earnings as opposed to $2.70 where it
certainly lies.
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There has been a lot of debate on whether lowering job killing
payroll taxes will actually have a jolt in terms of job creation.
One does not have to take it as my word. In this very same press
release the Canadian Chamber of Commerce stated that if the
premium were a $1.95, which is even lower than the $2 I
mentioned, instead of the present $2.70 per $100 of insurable
earnings, every medium size company across Canada would be able
to hire at least one more person. Those are not my words but
those of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce.
We need to put more disposable income into Canadian taxpayers'
pockets. I would like to quote the member for Sherbrooke who
understands this initiative. He stated that the message the
Prime Minister and his government seemed to be sending to
Canadian taxpayers was that he knew how to spend their money
better than they did. The truth is that less taxes and less debt
means more growth and more jobs for Canadians and more money in
the Canadian taxpayers' pockets.
The government actually maintains that there is tax relief
within the budget. The average amount of tax relief for a low or
middle income earner in Canada is about $80. That represents a
cup of coffee a week. As the hon. member for Kings—Hants
pointed out it would represent one a month if you go to
Starbucks.
We are actually pledging as one of our primary first initiatives
to raise the personal exemption on the income tax form from
$6,500 to $10,000. That one initiative alone would take two
million off the tax rolls overnight, two million Canadians who
should not have been there in the first place.
We are also calling for an initiative that actually kills the 3%
surtax, the deficit elimination surtax, as the budget is now
perceived to be balanced. We can actually put more money back
into Canadians' pockets.
Before I go further I want to point out that we have a balanced
budget. We should say bravo, that is good for all Canadians. It
ensures that we are headed in a better direction and that we will
not continue to mortgage the future of younger generations any
further. We have a debt of $600 billion. The younger you are,
the higher proportion of the debt you have to repay. It is
fiscally immoral to pay for today's programs with tomorrow's
moneys.
We need to ensure that we never go into the spiral of deficit
spending again. I challenge the government to bring in a
balanced budget legislation with teeth. One of our proposals
within our plan for growth, which the member from Kings—Hants
was instrumental in developing, was to ensure that if we do not
balance the budget we would cut the salary of the Prime Minister
and the salaries of the cabinet ministers if they failed to reach
their actual targets. That is the minimum we owe Canadians.
The balanced budget initiative has been a result of almost 15
years. As pointed out in the Economist magazine's year end
review, Canada's balanced budget is largely due to structural
changes in the Canadian economy implemented in the late 1980s and
early 1990s. It pointed to tax reforms, privatization and making
our economy that much more cost effective, or free trade as the
member of Kings—Hants pointed out.
Meanwhile the Liberal government has balanced the budget on the
backs of Canadian taxpayers by only having the courage in
leadership to cut Ottawa bureaucratic spending by a mere 9% while
cutting transfer to the provinces for health care and education.
These are the priorities of the Liberal government. Yet it
actually maintains that its priorities are health care and
education. It gutted health care and education by over 35%.
Over the past five years the government has taxed and cut
indiscriminately. The advent of a balanced budget does not give
the authority to tax and spend indiscriminately. Canadians have
made their priorities clear: increased job creation, the
protection of health care service and investing in young people's
future through education.
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Canada needs a plan for growth. In the budget the government
had an opportunity to outline some positive measures to make our
economy grow, and that starts with real, meaningful, across the
board tax relief.
I apologize to the 410,000 unemployed young Canadians that I am
leaving youth to the end of my speech. In terms of our economic
spending we almost forget about our youth. When it comes to
student debt, I understand that back in 1993 in Atlantic Canada
there were nine students who actually had a student debt of over
$30,000. Today there are 904 students who have a debt of over
$30,000.
If we do not actually provide the funding that today's younger
generation requires to ensure that they have access to
post-secondary education, and we do not have a lower tax regime
so that once they graduate from university they actually have a
chance to seek a job and have some opportunity, the brain drain
we talk about will turn into a brain train.
I challenge the government to actually provide Canada with a
plan for growth through less tax. Less debt means more jobs and
more opportunity for young Canadians.
Ms. Carolyn Bennett (St. Paul's, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it
is with great pride that I am able to speak to the budget,
especially after my week back in the riding of St. Paul's where
it was very clear that the people of St. Paul's and indeed the
people of Toronto were extremely grateful to the Prime Minister
and to the Minister of Finance for their leadership in what they
felt they had asked for, in what they had voted for and in what
had been delivered.
I would like to thank the people of St. Paul's and all other
people of Canada. Everybody knows that over this past four years
there had to be tough decisions. Those people have paid in ways
that they felt hard. They are very relieved that the days of
cuts are over.
The comments I had on the budget back in Toronto were that it
was thoughtful, intelligent, practical and compassionate. It
exceeded people's expectations of how well the pulse of the
people had been taken.
As has been said before, it was not only a balanced budget but
it was a budget that demonstrated balance in its being able to
deliver new programs, debt reduction and strategic tax relief.
The people felt relieved.
It was a great privilege last week to see my predecessor, John
Roberts, who was ecstatic that we could actually reach a time
where Jeffrey Simpsom from the Globe and Mail could
actually applaud a Liberal budget. His quote was:
As a long-standing and often acerbic critic of federal budgets,
let me switch gears completely. This week's budget was the best
in a generation. Here's why: It got priorities roughly right.
It helped redefine the proper role of government in a modern
economy. It balanced revenues and expenditures. It opted for
prudent forecasts. It resisted the temptation to spend gobs more
money in the wrong areas—
It contained modest tax cuts. It was a balanced budget. It
provided additional spending in the right places and avoidance of
foolish spending. It adds up to the best budget in a generation
and it sets a stage for what must come next, lower taxes and less
debt.
The budget has been called an education budget. It was
interesting to see the faces of our Reform colleagues at the HRDC
meeting last week when Frank Graves of Echos Research came to
present his data on what Canadians wanted with respect to the
role of the federal government in training and education. Well
over 59% of Canadians said that the federal role must be
increased and 21% said that it must at least remain the same.
It was interesting that the sentinel piece of the budget is
indeed the $2.5 billion millennium fund which the Prime Minister
promised to Canadians. When we look around the world in the year
2000 we will see that lots of countries built buildings and great
monuments to themselves. This country will be seen to have
created a legacy in terms of the future of our young Canadians.
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Life-long learning is indeed the future. As we see people
perhaps requiring four careers in a lifetime, the ability to go
to university is one of the biggest things we can give.
Last week at a skating party in St. Paul's Ken Dryden came to
sign autographs and was able to talk to people about what we were
raising some money for in terms of the three out of the cold
programs in our riding.
Mr. Dryden actually has his own scholarship fund where every
year he is able to fund six young Canadians. He chooses young
Canadians from either group homes or foster homes. He says that
the hardest thing is to read those 75 applications for those six
precious spots and realize that every one of those extremely
special young children has demonstrated with very little family
support an ability to go to university. He would love all 75 of
them to be able to go.
It is interesting to look at the other budget items in terms of
the RESP and the Canada education savings grant, huge incentives
for parents to save for their children's future education.
The tax free withdrawals for life-long learning from RRSPs is
important when we realize that the most important indicator for
Canadians at 30 years of age of whether or not they are working
is whether or not they have been to university. It is something
important for us to move forward on. The presence of the
university community was felt today on Parliament Hill.
University presidents are very happy with the millennium fund, a
future investment in young Canadians.
Robert Pritchard from the University of Toronto, where I am on
the faculty, said that we could not do a better as a country. He
could not be happier for our students because this help will make
all the difference in the world to them and their ability to
manage the costs of higher education.
As a physician I heard clearly the member for Winnipeg North
complaining about no new money for health care. I feel I should
respond and say that I am very happy with the direction of the
government in health care. The restoration of the CHST to $12.5
billion is exactly what the National Forum on Health asked for.
The additional $134 million for the MRC, the $211 million for the
HIV and aids initiative, and the $60 million for the new blood
agencies are indeed new money.
The innovative tax relief evidenced in the budget in health and
dental care allows self-employed people to proceed with
preventive care. The caregiver tax credit is the beginning of a
home care plan. Tax credits for training courses for caregivers
of dependent relatives with disabilities and helping families
with child care show the ongoing commitment and dedication of the
government to health care.
I was happy with the 1997 budget where we began with a health
transition fund of $150 million, the innovation fund of $800 and
the national system on health information with $50 million. These
are the building blocks to creating a sustainable health care
system for the future.
I believe the percentage of GDP, which is a good marker for
countries in terms of health care, is appropriate. At 9.7% for
Canada it is clear that the 14.2% in the United States does not
give better health care, does not give better perinatal mortality
or better health in all the other markers we now have.
I am encouraged. We need principles and values. Then we can
form a plan and only then can we cost it out. The health
transition fund is helping us with these three conferences, the
last of which concluded today on pharmacare, information
structures and home care. We still do not have consensus on
exactly what is the right thing to do. We cannot in any way
allocate budgets until we know what we want to do.
In pharmacare there is still a debate on whether it should be a
single payer or whether we should patch the holes in the
patchwork quilt. In information structure we know we need an
ability to be able to measure quality as we go so that we can
then allocate resources appropriately.
Information technology is imperative. We are still overcoming
the stumbling blocks of privacy and confidentiality. We must do
those things first.
2130
In terms of home care we need research into health care
delivery and we still need to debate who is doing it.
Yesterday the minister of health eloquently articulated the
principles and values and the priority of this government to
maintain the confidence of Canadians in our health care
system. We recognize that when medicare was designed health care
was delivered in hospitals by doctors and nurses. Times have
changed and we must now evaluate that delivering medically necessary
services to Canadians cannot depend on the building in which
the care is delivered.
We must move on to a new system so that Canadians do not lose
confidence in their system. We as a government are committed to
that and we will not allow the slippery slope of two tier
medicine that happens when Canadians lose confidence in the
system. We have to do our homework. We develop a plan and then
together we can go together with the post-budget consultations
and plan for the budget of 1999, the health care budget.
Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the constituents I represent I think have
a correct sense that the country is not functioning anywhere near
its economic potential. They know they are generally worse off
this year than in past years and they know that the average
person is not confident about their financial future. Neighbours
talk about the weather but soon they break into groans of dismay
or sad laughter of hopeless resignation that the federal
government just does not care. They are saying that it knows
little about their financial realities, the real truth about
families and what they face.
My neighbours may not be experts in macroeconomic and the
doublespeak of the annual budget speech. However, they did have
some reasonable expectations this time around and they were sadly
disappointed. It was not extreme but reasonable to desire that
the federal government live within its means and not spend more
each year than it takes in.
The federal Liberals were excruciatingly slow to get this
country to the balanced budget situation, and in hindsight the
numbers reveal that the most prudent course would have been a
balance last year after the debacle of the Conservatives.
Their government was replaced in October 1993 and the Liberal's
spending control really began with the 1994-95 budget. However,
like in 1984 when there was a national mood and general public
will to quickly get the national finances in order, the Liberal
government dithered and we wound up with worse pain and unneeded
deeper financial wounds to heal.
There was a big missed opportunity in 1984, and again in 1994
there was brief hope but it was soon dashed with another big
disappointment when the Liberals set such an anemic response to a
Canadian financial situation that was by then almost out of
control. We plodded so slowly toward a balanced budget but we
failed to reap the benefits of earned confidence from the
international community and we dragged out the pain of internal
disruption.
We also achieved a balanced budget through massive tax hikes
rather than a more appropriate balance of spending restraint. We
got to the right economic position in the wrong way, in a
needlessly painful way, especially concerning health care. The
Liberal's cut on that national trust was heartless. It reflected
their lack of competence to cut elsewhere, to stop the giveaways
to favourites. They failed to be realistic with program review
concerning measuring the actual results of much of their program
spending. Then from a balanced budget Canada is again
disappointed.
Setting a right course for budgets is not all that difficult
when a government listens and strives to be accountable to the
community. The Liberals are weak in view of the national
challenges because of that very fact. They are not committed to
local community accountability. They have too many vested
interests. They care too much about other agendas and they are
too weak to control them. The needy average Canadian at the
lower end of the economic order becomes only a Liberal
afterthought or a mere slogan. The Liberals lack the
accountability to what average Canadians want and need, and this
is revealed in the numbers of every budget since the election in
1993.
My constituents have told me that they agreed with the opinion
of the leader of the Reform Party when he said: “What a
disappointment. For the first time in a generation a prime
minister could have charted a new course for our country.
He could have set us on the path to debt reduction and tax
relief, but he blew it”.
2135
This is what the Leader of the Opposition said at the first
question period following the February 24 budget speech. What is
resonating in British Columbia is exactly this, debt reduction
and tax relief. It seems that those from the left are also
attempting to adopt the notion of fiscal responsibility, albeit
with a radical twist.
The NDP member for Qu'Appelle recently made some interesting
comments in a newspaper article when he stated: “The party and
the left in general now has realized that we have to have now a
sound financial base”.
This goes back to the CCF and Tommy Douglas. The first thing he
preached is that you can't do anything for people unless you have
your financial house in order.
The radical twist is that the NDP now wants the government to
allocate large amounts of money on new program spending while
maintaining strong fiscal practices.
I would like to suggest to the member for Qu'Appelle that a
sound financial base includes debt reduction. We cannot ignore
the debt. As of today, it is moving frighteningly close to $585
billion or more. Canada's fiscal house is not in order. It is
not even close.
The Liberals in the last election promised that of the surplus,
half would go to new spending and the other half would go to debt
reduction and tax relief.
Canadians may have been impressed by this notion, however
Reformers knew very well that, like so many broken promises
before, this was just another to throw on the heap of promises.
The Liberals promised to make changes to the North American Free
Trade Agreement and they did not. The Liberals promised to scrap
the EH-101 helicopter deal. At first they did and then the
pressure got to them and they were forced to renege on that
promise. Then there was the infamous promise to scrap, kill and
abolish the GST. They did not.
These were major policy decisions upon which governments are
made or unmade, a series of broken promises. I cannot speak for
all Canadians, but I can speak for my own constituents in New
Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby and I can assume that their
feelings are similar to those from other cities and provinces and
territories. They simply want promises kept. It is as simple as
that.
Why is it so tough for this government to understand what is
meant by integrity in politics? Government members sit in their
seats, smirking, thinking about how wonderful it is to have
gotten away with broken promises. They said things to get
elected which they had no intention of keeping. These actions
will come back to haunt.
I watched the newspapers quite closely following the budget. It
was important to me to see how the others reacted, in many cases
columnists and financial institutions in the private sector with
their finger on the pulse of the nation.
I want to read a couple of the quotes that I pulled from the
papers: “The government's approach in this budget falls
far short of providing adequate emphasis on debt reduction”.
That is Ernst & Young's analysis of the 1998 federal budget.
Another one: “Lower tax rates would generate more spending,
jobs and income. They would increase Canada's attractiveness for
new investment and improve the quantity and quality of job
opportunities, particularly among our youth”. That was also
from the Ernst & Young analysis.
Another quote: “For a situation in which balanced budgets are
being forecast for the years ahead, there is not nearly enough
relief for overburdened taxpayers who have taken the hits for
deficit reduction”. That was Neville Nankivell of the
Financial Post.
From the Canadian Chamber of Commerce: “The federal budget
sets its sights on the wrong target by focusing on spending
rather than taking strong action to pay down the massive $583
billion national debt. The federal debt translates into $19,000
for every man, woman and child”.
Canadians are being squeezed to death and they are pleading for
tax breaks, yet the finance minister feels that Canadians want
more program spending. Did the minister not consult with the
average citizen to see what they really needed most and wanted?
Did the average citizen really tell the minister that what was
needed was a $2.5 billion millennium scholarship fund that would
only affect 6% of all students in Canada and would discriminate
against students who choose open public universities that do not
take taxpayer money through direct support?
Did the minister believe that Canadians would accept a tax
increase to pay for new program spending of paid day care while
discriminating against parents who sacrifice income for one
parent to stay at home to look after their own? Absolutely not.
The minister does not care what ordinary Canadians think because
they have expanded their discriminatory ways. The only thing
that the minister cares about is finding new methods to reclaim
the old Liberal ways of spend, spend, spend.
The Reform's budget plan says there is a need to revise the
Income Tax Act regulations to end discrimination against parents
who provide child care at home and also ensure equitable
treatment for one income child care at home.
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Thankfully this year's budget is balanced but now is not the
time to open up overall spending again. Canada cannot continue
down that path. Our fiscal house is not in order. The finance
minister cannot claim victory. There is still a tremendous
amount of work to do.
Moody's Investor Service of New York has indicated that it is
not ready to reinstate Canada's highly coveted triple A rating.
It says that the success of this budget was due to extremely good
luck due to the upturn in the economy and tax increases. This
says to me that the government could have done so much more. Had
the government attacked the debt Moody's may have been compelled
to boost the national credit rating.
I want to close by saying that though things may not look very
good, Reform is not going to give up. In 1993 we came to Ottawa
with ideas that made sense and they make even more sense now. The
vision we have for this country is sound and we have stood by our
principles and our promises. We believe in Canada and we believe
strongly that it can recover from this fiscal crisis.
I desire to serve to bring a better Canada to everyone
regardless of economic situation, and with more economic
compassion we can do better as we enter the next millennium.
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Thunder Bay—Atikokan, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it feels like a very short time ago, but a little over
four years ago I as a newcomer to the House of Commons heard my
first budget presentation by the hon. Minister of Finance.
It brought a little apprehension to me because after listening I
believed what he was saying. He said that we could do what was
necessary to achieve our deficit target of 3% of GDP and we would
repair the disaster that was left to us by previous
administrations. Naturally I had faith in his plan, a plan that
was laid before us. However, I am going to be very honest, there
were some reservations.
Why did I have these reservations in my mind? It was simply
because I as a student of the political scene had followed the
34th session of Parliament during Brian Mulroney's government and
had watched the hon. minister of finance, Mr. Wilson, time and
time again make predictions and discover that he was always way
off in his predictions. I was a little fearful that maybe that
would be a permanent sort of occurrence that happened with every
budget.
Fortunately with my faith I knew that we could achieve the
target. However, not in my wildest dreams did I think we might
be in the position that we are today, balancing the budget so
quickly and so far ahead of schedule.
Sure, I am ecstatic about this situation and proud but I am also
relieved to see that the promises made back then have been
fulfilled and then some. We have a balanced budget and Canadians
should be proud. Their efforts and sacrifices have paid off.
Yes, we have all made sacrifices. We all know the vast majority
of companies in this country have debts. We know the vast
majority of households in this country have debts. However, there
comes a time, whether in a corporation, a company, a business or
in a household, when some decisions have to be made. We cannot
have expenditures exceeding income. That is when the sacrifices
have to be made. In a household that is when the husband and
wife get together and say they cannot afford this or that and
must make a decision. They have to curtail their spending. They
decide that the wife will not get a fur coat this winter but will
get it when they can afford it.
In other words, sacrifices of that nature had to be made on a
personal basis by all Canadians in order for us to achieve the
targets that we have in a little over four years.
As a long time educator, I was particularly pleased to see the
efforts that were made to improve the situation that faces our
students. Improvements for the management of student debt, the
provision of tax relief for interest payments on student loans
and the granting of increases in funding for advanced research
and for graduate students were most welcome announcements.
2145
We all are aware of the fact that we have done quite a few
things by implementing certain measures in past budgets as well
as this one. I predict that there will be many more measures in
budgets in the years ahead. These measures will help many to
survive and benefit from their involvement in the post-secondary
educational system.
I would like to point this out to all the august members of the
House of Commons who are here to listen to my presentation
tonight. Just about everything the budget implements has a
direct or indirect bearing on the educational development of each
and every citizen of this country. Whether they be health,
agriculture or industry, whatever measures are implemented will
have positive spin-offs as far as learning processes are
concerned.
Despite popular support for this educational budget initiative,
we are still hearing complaints from the opposition. For
instance, Premier Bouchard and his Bloc allies have claimed that
the millennium scholarship fund represents interference in
provincial jurisdiction. Others also complain about that very
same issue. The reality of the matter is that his position is
seriously at odds with the sentiment of his constituents.
A survey which was taken last fall by a major polling company
indicated that the notion of a scholarship program was widely
popular in Quebec, so much so that only 6% of Quebeckers opposed
the concept of a scholarship fund. This is clear cut evidence
that the Bloc and Mr. Bouchard are seriously out of touch with
their constituents, as are other premiers of this country.
Last weekend I was very fortunate to have spent three days in
Montreal. On Friday night I spent over two hours with four
students, three from McGill University and one from a college.
They pointed out to me that they were not opposed to any
federally funded initiative that would help people in
post-secondary educational systems in their province, provided
that it was fair.
When I asked for their definition of fairness they said “What
is good for the goose is good for the gander. If we can get it,
it must be equally available to someone else in another province.
Whatever they get in British Columbia we should also receive”.
An interesting point emerged. They felt that fairness could
only be achieved through national federal programs. That is
quite obvious. When there are as many provinces and partners as
there are in this federation, which represent a variety of
ideological political positions and which have a variety of
strategies for achieving their goals, there will be great
discrepancies between and among each and every province.
The only way we can get uniformity and the only way we can
maintain a degree of fairness is to have a nationally instituted,
initiated, administered program.
I believe the real problem is that Mr. Bouchard has a serious
problem allowing young Quebeckers to be aware of the fact that
Canada contributes moneys to their education.
Let us take a look at what is happening in the province of
Ontario. There have been a lot of complaints about the transfer
payments. We know that the 30% tax cut pledge of the Mike Harris
government will cost that province $4.8 billion each year.
This represents money that could have been used for education and
health care in Ontario.
2150
This tax cut in the province of Ontario amounts to approximately
five times more than the federal transfer reductions to Ontario
in 1998 and 1999. Rarely does a premier of any province mention
the transfer of tax credits which is another strategy we have
agreed upon to transfer money directly to the provincial coffers.
Higher and higher levels of education are now necessary in order
for Canadians to adequately participate in today's job market. I
am not only concerned about the job market, but also about
quality of life. It is absolutely essential that we be the
guardians of the individuals in this country. That is the main
purpose of a government, to protect its citizens, to see to it
that their quality of life is enhanced on an ongoing basis, to
see that its citizens grow. We must bring about those strategies
to guarantee that all people in Canada will continue to progress.
I could go on for another two or three hours talking about all
the wonderful things that have happened, are happening and will
happen under this government.
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker, like
you and everybody else in the House, I am really eager to wrap up
this debate, which is of concern to all our fellow citizens,
since we are talking about the budget.
I am extremely disappointed by the budget brought down by the
finance minister. He is known to be somewhat undemonstrative,
with a lack of vision and imagination, as shown in previous
budgets. What we did not know, however, was how little concern
the Minister of Finance and his government had for social issues.
Mr. Speaker, you who are concerned with social justice, can you
understand how this government, in a context of budget surplus,
the first in a number of years, can give no thought to those
people who are our society's most disadvantaged and who need the
government's help?
I would have hoped to see much greater concern in this budget
over the social role of the banks. I would like to give you an
example of the situation in the United States since 1977, when
the Democrats passed a certain bill. It certainly cannot be said
that the United States does not foster freedom of enterprise.
Well, since 1977, they have legislation that requires banks to
become involved in underprivileged communities.
This legislation annually reviews a public report, which
obviously receives a lot of attention from consumers. The
report, released in June, evaluates the social behaviour of
banks.
Is there one good reason why such legislation would not be well
received in Canada? There is one: we need a government that has
some backbone, that has vision and that can stand up to the
financial world. We know that we are not talking about this kind
of government.
Like you, Mr. Speaker, I am a great traveller and, undaunted by
a challenge, I went to Washington three months ago.
There I met members of the American Banking Association,
businessmen and consumer groups and I was told about all the good
this sort of legislation brought about.
I got the list of investments. If members want to obtain a copy,
I would be delighted to circulate this list.
Since 1977, American banks have invested $356 billion in local
communities?
2155
What did Canadian banks do? Throughout the world, conventional
wisdom has it that Canada is the easiest country of all for
banking. It is a well-known fact that Canada is a very well
protected market for bankers.
What has happened in Canada? We have four major chartered banks
which have made record profits. In 1994, profits stood at $4
billion, but they reached $7 billion last year, and there is no
reason to believe this trend will abate.
In this context of banks getting richer and richer, with our
Canadian borders closed to foreign competitors, banks have
resorted to the most drastic streamlining ever.
I remind the House that since 1991, banks have laid off one way
or another 10,000 employees. In the next ten years, they are
expected to lay off 35,000 more. All of this, when profits are at
a record level and the return on common equity has never been so
high.
Why should this Parliament remain indifferent and silent,
callously silent, about the social role banks could play?
In many communities experiencing a great deal of poverty and
unemployment, where it would be important for the banks to get
involved in the development of the local economy, banks are
conspicuously absent.
Let us take the riding of Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, for example,
which I believe you had the chance to visit recently, Mr.
Speaker. The number of underprivileged people there is quite
high. But I hasten to add that there is also an intense community
involvement, so that for each of the existing problems, we have
community resources to help individuals through their particular
situations.
Seniors in my riding tell me that 20 years ago, we had about ten
branches of the various chartered banks. Believe it or not, no
more than two are still there.
They tell me that there are no banks in Saint-Henri any more. If
it were not for institutions like the caisses populaires, it
would be impossible for people to access basic financial
services.
How can a Minister of Finance responsible for preparing a budget,
one with any feelings, remain cruelly silent on the question of
financial institutions? Are members aware that, across Canada,
there are 600,000 Canadians who have no bank account, because the
existing rules demand identity documents, and some branches even
require them to have a job, and they therefore do not have access
to basic financial services.
I believe that it must be made perfectly clear that the banks
have acted like highwaymen, like Shylocks, like thieves, without
any respect for consumers.
In major cities, there are voices asking that we, the law
makers, regardless of political affiliation, take action to get
the banks to shape up.
I think that in the next few days, we could adopt a community
investment bill, as they call it in the United States. We could
give the Superintendent of Financial Institutions the mandate of
assessing them on the basis of widely known and accepted
criteria; this could be done in co-operation with community
groups, representatives from the banking community and the
private sector. Banks should have to account every year, in a
report which would be made public, for their actions, investments
and community involvement.
2200
You know what I am like. I am certainly not someone who shrinks
from political life. Faced with the problem of the banks, I
introduced a private member's bill that, as luck would have it,
is now before the House and should be debated in the coming
days, probably in early April.
I call on the solidarity of all my colleagues. Can it be that,
for once and for all in the House, we are going to ask the banks
to behave like true corporate citizens with a stake in their
community? It requires a certain amount of political courage.
It requires that we work together.
I have not given up the hope of creating a coalition with a
number of members to pressure this government to provide
legislation such as they have in the United States.
Mr. Speaker, I need only your support now. I know you support
such action, and I am sure that legislation of this kind
ensuring social justice will, in the end, be passed in Canada.
The Deputy Speaker: Pursuant to order made earlier this day, the
motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted.
Accordingly, this House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 2
p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 10.01 p.m.)