36th Parliament, 1st Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 97
CONTENTS
Friday, May 1, 1998
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
1005
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MI'KMAQ EDUCATION ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-30. Second reading
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bernard Patry |
1010
1015
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Derrek Konrad |
1020
1025
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
1030
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ghislain Fournier |
1035
1040
1045
1050
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
1055
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | WALLEYE FISHING DERBY
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Larry McCormick |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEPATITIS C
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Reynolds |
1100
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | UNITY PEAK
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. David Pratt |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | STS. CYRIL AND METHODIUS UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Walt Lastewka |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | NATIONAL TEXTILES WEEK
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Eleni Bakopanos |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HUMAN RIGHTS
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | INTERNATIONAL WORKERS DAY
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jacques Saada |
1105
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | INTERNATIONAL WORKERS DAY
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ghislain Fournier |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CÉLINE DION
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Denis Coderre |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE SENATE
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ken Epp |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | INTERNATIONAL LABOUR DAY
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MAY DAY
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Pat Martin |
1110
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ENVIRONMENT
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Charles Caccia |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEALTH CARE
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gilles Bernier |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MICHELIN CANADA
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | SOUTH SURREY EAGLES HOCKEY TEAM
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
1115
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEPATITIS C
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Preston Manning |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Preston Manning |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Preston Manning |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Grant Hill |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
1120
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Grant Hill |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Réal Ménard |
1125
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Réal Ménard |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gilles Bernier |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
1130
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gilles Bernier |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Preston Manning |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Preston Manning |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PAY EQUITY
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Hélène Alarie |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Marcel Massé |
1135
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Hélène Alarie |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Marcel Massé |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEPATITIS C
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Maurice Vellacott |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Maurice Vellacott |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | TOKAMAK PROJECT
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Ralph E. Goodale |
1140
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Ralph E. Goodale |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEPATITIS C
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chuck Strahl |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chuck Strahl |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | OLD AGE PENSIONS
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Maurice Dumas |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jim Peterson |
1145
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Roy Cullen |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Ethel Blondin-Andrew |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEPATITIS C
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jason Kenney |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jason Kenney |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Pat Martin |
1150
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Pat Martin |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Marcel Massé |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Marcel Massé |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HUMAN RIGHTS
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Judi Longfield |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Hedy Fry |
1155
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEPATITIS C
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jack Ramsay |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Richard Marceau |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nick Discepola |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gordon Earle |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bernard Patry |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEPATITIS C
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gerald Keddy |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Eric Lowther |
1200
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | VACANCY
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Sherbrooke
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | The Speaker |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Procedure and House Affairs
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
1205
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CRIMINAL CODE
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-397. Introduction and first reading
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Eric Lowther |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MI'KMAQ EDUCATION ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-30. Second reading
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
1210
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Lee Morrison |
1215
1220
1225
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gordon Earle |
1230
1235
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Lee Morrison |
1240
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gerald Keddy |
1245
1250
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Citizenship and Immigration
|
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion
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![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT ORDERS
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![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MI'KMAQ EDUCATION ACT
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![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-30. Second reading
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![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Division on motion deferred
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![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
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![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CRIMINAL CODE
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![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-251. Second reading
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![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Albina Guarnieri |
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![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jack Ramsay |
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![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gordon Earle |
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![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
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![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nick Discepola |
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![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ken Epp |
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![V](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Appendix
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(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 97
![](/web/20061116174319im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/crest2.gif)
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Friday, May 1, 1998
The House met at 10 a.m.
Prayers
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
1005
[English]
MI'KMAQ EDUCATION ACT
Hon. Allan Rock (for the Minister of Indian Affairs and
Northern Development, Lib.) moved that Bill C-30, an act
respecting the powers of the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia in relation
to education, be read the second time and referred to a
committee.
Mr. Bernard Patry (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Indian Affairs and Northern Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I rise to address the House on second reading of Bill C-30, the
Mi'kmaq education act. I will be asking hon. members to join me
in supporting this proposed legislation which provides for the
transfer of jurisdiction for education from Canada to nine
Mi'kmaq first nations in Nova Scotia.
Bill C-30 is neither a lengthy nor a technical bill. It deals
with a very specific issue for a distinct group of people. Yet,
this is a truly historic piece of legislation that will stand as
a milestone in the strengthening of aboriginal communities in
Canada.
Why is this bill so important? It is for the simple reason that
it represents the first time in our history that jurisdiction for
education will be transferred from the federal government back to
first nations where it belongs.
In one sense Bill C-30 is a step into the past because we are
returning control of an important community activity to the local
level, but it is also a step into the future in that it signals
the beginning of a new relationship between governments and Nova
Scotia first nations. We are hopeful it will lead to many more
undertakings.
When this government unveiled its aboriginal action plan in
January it made a clear commitment to strengthen aboriginal
communities by investing in people. In my view the single most
important investment we can make in a community is in the
education of its youth.
For aboriginal people in particular education is an essential
instrument for achieving self-sufficiency and solidifying Mi'kmaq
identity. By providing the tools children and youth need in
today's society education can help break aboriginal peoples'
traditional reliance on governments and social assistance.
Higher levels of education are critical if aboriginal people are
to achieve self-government, take full advantage of land claims
agreements, participate effectively in the new economy and live
longer and healthier lives.
In short, education will open many doors of opportunity that
have been closed to first nations people for far too long.
[Translation]
I know that the members of this House are in favour of providing
aboriginal people with quality education. I am sure also that
some of my distinguished colleagues will agree that decisions
regarding the education of Mi'kmaq children and youth should not
be made here, in Ottawa, but in the communities where these
children live and go to school, communities like Eskasoni,
Wagmatcook, Whycocomagh and Pictou Landing.
Thanks to this transfer of jurisdiction over education, the
Mi'kmaqs of Nova Scotia will be able to preserve their past and
participate in their future.
1010
Bill C-30 will allow the nine participating first nations to
determine their children's curriculum. They will be able to
develop programs and courses in keeping with their own customs,
traditions and culture, all in their own language.
This initiative will have a huge positive effect on the sense of
identity in Mi'kmaq communities and on students' self-esteem.
This is not a new concept. It has long been recognized that
there are tangible long term benefits to transferring education
management to aboriginal communities.
That is why, in the past 30 years, it has been a policy of
successive governments to transfer educational responsibilities
to the first nations.
Bill C-30 goes well beyond the mere transfer of responsibility
over the program. This delegation of powers is based on the
recognition of the inherent right to control education locally.
This initiative is fully consistent with this government's
inherent-right policy and responds to a recommendation of the
Royal Commission on Aboriginal People to give aboriginal people
more power over education.
While not a self-government agreement per se, Bill C-30 will pave
the way to self-government for these first nations.
The bill will also help meet the objectives stated in the
document entitled Gathering Strength: Canada's Aboriginal Action
Plan, which is the government's recent response to the royal
commission.
One of these objectives is for the federal government to work
with aboriginal people, the provinces and territories, as well
as other partners, to develop practical, sustainable governance
arrangements for aboriginal people that are built on legitimacy,
authority and accountability. The bill is an important step
toward this objective.
Bill C-30 provides the necessary legislative framework to
implement the agreement to transfer the powers and duties
related to education, which was signed in February 1997 by
Canada, Nova Scotia and the leaders of the nine Mi'kmaq first
nations.
[English]
Through this proposed legislation the government will delegate
to the participating first nations the authority to pass laws for
primary, elementary and secondary education on reserves for band
members.
Bill C-30 also transfers jurisdiction for post-secondary student
support funding for members of participating communities living
on and off reserve. In accepting this jurisdiction the Mi'kmaq
agree to provide equivalent education to non-members living on
reserve. The level and the quality of education they provide
must ensure that students can successfully transfer to any other
education system in Canada.
In order to exercise education jurisdiction, each Mi'kmaq first
nation will establish its own education authority. These
authorities will adopt a constitution that clearly outlines their
responsibilities, accountability and reporting structure, the
process that will be used to pass laws, and a transparent appeals
process.
Bill C-30 also provides for the establishment of the Mi'kmaw
Kina'matnewey, a new corporation that will assist first nations
in the exercise of their education jurisdiction.
The chiefs of the participating first nations will form the
board of this new corporation, which will provide collective
services such as curriculum development, culture and language
initiatives, special education and post-secondary support
services, and reporting functions. Like the education
authorities, this corporation will be governed by a constitution
that ensures a fair and open accountability regime and dispute
resolution process.
The final agreement also provides for the transfer to the nine
first nations of approximately $24 million per year. This
funding will be used to operate and maintain education facilities
and for related band administration and capital requirements.
Funding levels will be reviewed after five years.
This funding will come from the Department of Indian Affairs and
Northern Development's existing education budget. It is not new
money, but money that has already been allocated on a per student
basis to provide education services to these nine Mi'kmaq first
nations.
1015
I would be remiss today if I did not acknowledge the Government
of Nova Scotia for its support of this transfer of education
jurisdiction.
As hon. members know, education is primarily a provincial
responsibility and the Government of Nova Scotia has a long and
effective partnership with first nations in the province. In
recognition of the aspirations and capabilities of the Mi'kmaq
people, the provincial government has acknowledged Mi'kmaq
jurisdiction for education on reserves. This will be affirmed
through separate provincial legislation.
The participation and co-operation of the provincial government
in this transfer process is indicative of the commitment that
exists in Canada today to build new partnerships with aboriginal
people. It is also further proof that the Canadian federation is
flexible and can accommodate the interests and expectations of
all people.
[Translation]
We are transferring jurisdiction over education to certain
Mi'kmaq communities, because they want it, they need it and they
deserve it. The transfer process began in 1991, when Mi'kmaq
leaders made representations to the federal government to have
greater control over education programs in their communities.
After several years of discussions and negotiations, we reached
an agreement that satisfies everyone's needs. In January 1998,
the nine participating first nations approved a resolution
asking the federal and provincial governments to pass
legislation to implement the agreement.
Today, I am asking members of parliament to take that resolution
into account.
I can assure them that Bill C-30 was drafted in close co-operation
with Mi'kmaq leaders and provincial officials.
The views of individual band members were also taken into
consideration, through a vast consultation process held in the
communities, and a ratification process conducted by the first
nations. We received letters of support from many non-aboriginal
groups in Nova Scotia, including colleges and universities,
school boards and the Diocese of Antigonish.
I should also point out that this legislation is not imposed on
any first nation.
The other four Mi'kmaq first nations will be able to benefit
from the bill at a later date and any of the signatory first
nations can opt in or out just by having their names added to or
withdrawn from the Schedule to Bill C-30.
As I said earlier, the government hopes that this legislative
measure will be the first of a number of similar agreements with
first nations throughout the country. In fact, I can tell the
House that similar negotiations are underway with several first
nations in Ontario. Bill C-30 and the final agreement it will
implement could be used as a model for future devolution of
powers in the area of education.
Bill C-30 positively recognizes the capability of the first
nations to take control over their lives and their future.
It will give control over the Mi'kmaq education system back to
the native people, at the local level, back to the parents and
officials who take care of the Mi'kmaq children.
This is certainly an initiative that members from both sides of
the House can support and I would ask them to quickly pass this
bill, so that we can implement the final agreement in spring, in
time for the 1998-99 school year.
[English]
Mr. Derrek Konrad (Prince Albert, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
would like to request the unanimous consent of the House to
divide my time with the hon. member for Calgary East.
The Deputy Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Derrek Konrad: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak
about Bill C-30, the Mi'kmaq education act. I want to take a few
moments to acknowledge my appreciation of those leaders of the
Mi'kmaq communities who came to my office to discuss Bill C-30
with my staff and me. They came with the purpose of promoting the
bill.
However, during the course of our discussions we also delved
into the more substantial issues of how aboriginal people relate
to society at large. While we did not agree on many things
regarding technical arrangements by which we co-exist, I am
encouraged by the good will expressed and the willingness to
build and maintain friendships in the future.
I look forward to the day when I will be able to travel to the
Chapel Island Reserve and enjoy their promised hospitality.
1020
With regard to Bill C-30 I considered many factors in deciding
whether to support it. I concluded that I cannot support it in
its present form. Most of the reasons for withholding support at
this time I also discussed with the members of the Chapel Island
Reserve who came to my office.
The purpose of the proposed legislation is to implement an
agreement signed by the government and nine of the 13 Mi'kmaq
communities in Nova Scotia. The communities will, under the
terms of the bill, exercise control over both primary and
secondary education. It sets up a corporation to be known as
Mi'kmawkina'matnewey which will have no share capital. Twenty
four million dollars of capital will be injected into the
corporation for existing department of Indian affairs funding,
with an additional unspecified amount for start-up costs.
The stated purpose of the corporation is to support delivery of
educational programs and services under the proposed act. Its
members will be the chiefs of the participating communities and
they together will constitute its board of directors and will be
responsible for management and conduct of the corporation.
As laudable as the stated aims of the bill are, the Reform Party
cannot support the legislation at this time and I will explain
the reasons for withholding support.
The main objection to the bill is the provision which makes the
chiefs ex-officio members of the Mi'kmawkina'matnewey, the
governing body. This key portion of the bill concentrates too
much power in the hands of one group. When this point was raised
during discussions the comment was made that to have an elected
board is to create one more level of bureaucracy.
When we are talking about the provision of education anywhere in
Canada we always assume the existence of a board of education
charged with the sole responsibility for both management and
delivery of educational services. There are times when an
elected board dedicated to one purpose is in the best interests
of the people. Furthermore, it also makes sense for the
electorate to hold an education board accountable for education
and to deal with it at the polls on that one issue.
Political leaders by necessity have a broader outlook and
responsibility for the overall leadership and management of the
community as a whole. The objection was raised, probably
correctly, that neither governments nor other educational
authorities would give credence to an elected board. I would
submit that after an initial period of adjustment a board of
education would achieve credibility in its own right,
particularly if it had the full support of the bands from which
its membership was drawn.
If the bill is amended as I am suggesting then support for the
bill could be extended. There are, however, other concerns with
the proposed legislation and consequences flowing from it that I
would like to draw to the attention of the House.
As members are no doubt aware the Reform Party has a
longstanding position on equality of all citizens and will find
it extremely difficult to support legislation which furthers the
separation of Canadians from one another. Full participation in
society by all people including aboriginals is the goal of our
party. It is our belief that the best interests of Canada's
aboriginal people can best be addressed through equality and full
participation in all matters pertaining to education.
On another matter, while I realize the chiefs have been elected
to represent their people it does not appear the bill is before
the House today has the full backing of all members of all the
communities. As I previously noted, 4 of the 13 bands in the
area are not participating in the planned education system. From
what I have seen in aboriginal communities so far there is no
consensus on much of the process of devolving responsibility for
program management to local communities. On the point previously
mentioned, the fact that there is wide disagreement about
devolution of powers to local band councils and chiefs is also
important to the debate over the bill.
The press kit which accompanied the bill to my office mentioned
that the legislation is historic in that it establishes a new
relationship between aboriginal people and the federal government
in the area of education. Undoubtedly the bill, if enacted, will
be used as a model for other agreements of a similar nature.
When developing legislation of a historic nature there must be
widespread discussions by all groups, both those immediately
affected and those potentially affected.
In the area of education, as in so many others which affect
people's relationship with governments and with one another, a
broad consensus must be obtained. The general public must be
involved in the process as well as any group attempting to
establish a special education system, and this does not appear to
be the case here.
1025
There appears to be a fair amount of uncertainty about the
effects of the bill on smaller communities in terms of how they
would benefit economically from arrangements like those
envisioned in the proposed legislation. Concerns such as theirs
have not yet been heard.
While withdrawing from society, which is the point of this bill,
appears to be attractive in some measure, I do not believe its
long term effects will prove beneficial. The world is changing,
and the conditions that led to the reserve system and to the
separation of native and non-native cultures are long past. I
believe both the Mi'kmaq and society at large will be better
served by refusing to be separated and consequently
misunderstood. Aboriginal people can and should be full and equal
participants in Canadian society with all its benefits and
privileges.
We are calling for amendments to Bill C-30 that would make the
governing body, responsible for administering education on
reserve, more responsive to the band members' direction.
Acceptance of this key amendment will improve this legislation
immensely and I request serious consideration of it by all
members of this House.
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it
is my pleasure to speak to Bill C-30 which gives educational
rights to Mi'kmaq nations. It is a privilege for me to talk from
a minority point of view on this bill. I would very much like to
support this legislation. However, as my colleague pointed out,
we do have some serious reservations. We would support this
legislation if our amendments can be incorporated.
My party's cornerstone policy is equal treatment for all
Canadians. We want all who live in Canada to be equal
participants in the Canadian mosaic. We recognize that the first
nations have a very unique culture and unique customs, which we
encourage them to maintain. We also want them to be an equal
part of this Canadian mosaic.
When we talk about issues like this one, allowing education to
be run by cultural groups, these questions arise. What kind of
education? How will that education relate to joining in the
Canadian mosaic? The bill states quite clearly that this
educational system should be compatible with other Canadian
educational systems so that students can transfer from one system
to another. However, our concern is that in past experience this
has not been the case.
The board is set up so that chiefs have the power and they will
be the board members, but there is the concern of who the chiefs
are accountable to. The chiefs are supposed to be accountable to
the people of the bands but past experience indicates this has
not been going on. This raises the concern of how this board
will be run. School boards are technically run by parent
councils, teachers and elected trustees. Why should that
principle not apply here? Why should they not have trustees
elected by the band members to run the schools?
We do not see that happening here. This is a top down approach
where the chiefs will be the board members and there will be no
elections. That is our first major concern. How will the band
member be part and parcel in directing school policy?
This bill will be used as a precedent for other aboriginal
communities so it is right for us to address the important issues
related to the accountability of these systems. We would not
have much problem if there were a board to address the needs of
the full native community, if the board were elected by the band
members, the teachers and others in the education field. Then
they could provide the best education for these children who
would go on to become future Canadians of excellence in their
fields.
This is possible in providing a framework for native Canadians.
1030
As my colleague mentioned, it is important to recognize
something which is a cornerstone of my party's policy. Are all
Canadians and we should be learning to build bridges with each
other. Canadians should not be separated. Canadians should not
be compartmentalized.
When we create schools and compartmentalize people into
different areas, when will these Canadians interface with other
people who have come from all over the world to live in this
country? After all, we are citizens together. Where will they
understand brotherhood? Where will they understand comradeship?
Where will they understand being proud Canadians? Even the
military would not go to this extent because we need brotherhood.
We should be together.
We are creating what to us is a division but we also recognize
that there are unique requirements of the first nations, their
culture and their customs. We understand that and we respect
them very highly. We feel that can become part and parcel of a
broader picture of teaching native culture and native customs not
only to Mi'kmaq but to all Canadians in schools. In that way we
can build bridges with each other, we can understand each other.
I have reservations to this bill. I would like to see further
discussion and amendments brought in so that we can have a
greater picture on this.
[Translation]
Mr. Ghislain Fournier (Manicouagan, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it gives
me great pleasure this morning to speak to Bill C-30 concerning
the Mi'kmaq people. Because this is a technical bill and the
product of many years of research, I will refer to my notes.
As an associate member representing the Bloc Quebecois on the
Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern
Development, I wish to comment on Bill C-30 at second reading.
The bill before us must be passed in order to give effect to an
agreement signed by the chiefs of the nine Mi'kmaq first nations
and the governments of Canada and Nova Scotia on February 14,
1997. This agreement provides that the federal government, by
means of federal legislation, will delegate authority for
education on reserves to Mi'kmaq communities.
The final agreement sets out the nature and scope of the powers
transferred, including support for primary, elementary,
secondary and post-secondary students. The agreement also
defines the powers, responsibilities, functions and structures
of the Mi'kmaw-Kina'matnewey, which would be the Mi'kmaq
organization responsible for education.
Given all the discussions that have taken place between January
1991, when the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs was
initially approached about setting up a Mi'kmaq organization
responsible for education, and February 14, 1997, when the final
agreement was signed with the Chapel Island first nation, it is
altogether understandable that we should do our utmost to wrap
this up quickly.
1035
The Mi'kmaq have been calling for full authority over education
during all this time. Apparently, all the prior stages having
been completed, the bill before us must be passed in order to
implement this agreement, which was approved, as I mentioned, by
all the chiefs of the nine Mi'kmaq first nations and the
governments of Canada and Nova Scotia.
Now that a tripartite agreement has been worked out between the
province of Nova Scotia and the federal government, which has
jurisdiction over first nations education, it seems to me that
it is time to wrap things up and proceed to the implementation
stage.
This has been in the works since 1991 in a kind of
one-step-forward, one step back negotiation process. The first
agreement between the federal government and the 13 Mi'kmaq
chiefs of Nova Scotia dates from 1992. At that time, the
Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development agreed to
transfer educational programs to the first nations. Agreement
after agreement followed and finally, on February 14, 1997, a
final agreement was signed by 9 of the 13 Mi'kmaq communities,
which stipulated that the first nations would have power over
education at the primary, elementary and secondary levels.
I would remind the federal government, which is today wondering
about the impact of such a transfer of powers to the Mi'kmaq
communities or about the first nations' ability to assume the
responsibility for educating their members, that there is a
precedent in this area, the Cree school board which was created
by the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement. That agreement
was signed more than 25 years ago, on November 11, 1975. If the
federal government is questioning this situation, perhaps it is
because of its memories of the negotiations with the Cree.
I should also point out to my colleagues from Nova Scotia that
they need to be very cautious about one thing. When the
agreement with the Cree and the Inuit was negotiated, all points
appeared to have been clarified, but Quebec ran into an obstacle
nevertheless. That obstacle came from the federal government of
the day.
It is very certain that, when the famous tripartite agreement
was signed, the federal government was acting in good faith. I
will merely point out that my colleagues from Nova Scotia need
to be very certain of the government's willingness to fulfil all
conditions of the contract.
Aboriginal people perhaps do need to be given power over
education, but it must be kept in mind that, in 1966, Quebec was
forced to claim $119 million from the federal government as
reimbursement of the federal share of the costs of educational
services put in place by the northern Cree, Inuit and Naskapi
communities. Although as we speak, the three parties appear to
have reached agreement on all points in this matter, there may
well be a flaw in this agreement, as there often is.
When Quebec and the New Quebec school board signed this
agreement with the Cree and the Inuit, everything seemed to be
clear. But surprises were still to come, particularly where
capital assets were concerned.
In order to remedy this situation, Quebec had to make
investments, but when it came to foot the bill, Quebec had to
wait to be reimbursed by the federal government. Quebec
therefore had to wait from 1980 to 1996 before getting
reimbursed for the federal government's share.
1040
By the time the refund came in 1996, the federal government owed
Quebec $130 million. We should therefore have assurances that,
if necessary, the government will pay its share.
Furthermore, Nova Scotia should remind the federal government
that it cannot speak from both sides of its mouth. It cannot, on
the one hand, boast by saying “Look how nice we are, we have
decided to allow the aboriginal people in Nova Scotia to take
control over their children's education” and, on the other hand,
hinder the development of Nova Scotia and its aboriginal people
by denying them the large sums owed to them.
I remind this House that the agreement signed on February 14,
1997, has been approved by all stakeholders in the non-aboriginal
population of Nova Scotia. All these groups, from the Assembly
of first nations to the Nova Scotia Association of School Boards
and the diocese, unanimously agree that this agreement, which is
a historic one for the province, is a step forward and was the
best way to go. This is an opportunity for the aboriginal people
in Nova Scotia to demonstrate how autonomous they are.
As an opposition party, the Bloc Quebecois has intervened and
continues to intervene in favour of aboriginal people. We have
made statements in the House of Commons and through our
involvement in federal politics we have been able to build ties
with the first nations, the Metis and the Inuit. Our party
advocates an ongoing dialogue with all aboriginal and
non-aboriginal groups in Quebec's planned society.
The Bloc Quebecois believes it is important that there be focus
groups like the forum with equal representation from Quebeckers
and aboriginal people. The Bloc Quebecois recognizes aboriginal
nations as distinct and, as such, entitled to have their own
culture, language, customs and traditions as well as the right
to develop their own identity. They should therefore enjoy
greater autonomy. The bill before us today is a fine example of
this.
We want to reach a consensus through non-violent means, based on
the principle of peaceful co-existence between aboriginal
nations, Quebec and Canada, both before and after Quebec
achieves sovereignty. That is why Quebec asks that the Canadian
government speed up all discussions and negotiations on
self-government.
This group has written a manifest on the future of relations
between aboriginals and Quebeckers. We hope that similar
initiatives will foster a better understanding of our vision of
a sovereign Quebec.
Moreover, the Bloc Quebecois critic on this issue, the hon.
member for Saint-Jean, and the leader of the Bloc Quebecois have
initiated discussions with aboriginal groups. A series of
meetings are underway between the Bloc Quebecois and the leaders
of the Assembly of first nations, including Phil Fontaine and
Ghislain Picard, from the Quebec section.
Of course, in the bill before us, the government will have to be
vigilant in transferring legislative and administrative
responsibilities for education to these nine first nations.
If this bill allowed the Mi'kmaq to put in place education
systems and institutions that would preserve and respect the
values and traditions of their culture, it would still be
important to ensure that the programs are in line with those
offered in other Nova Scotia schools so as to facilitate the
transition from these schools to institutions that are under the
jurisdiction of that province or any neighbouring province.
As a matter of fact, the agreement says that school results
obtained under the education standards specified in the final
agreement must be transferable, without penalty, to any other
Mi'kmaq or Canadian teaching institution. If this bill applies
to the preschool, primary and secondary levels, members of the
first nations who want to pursue their studies should be able to
do so without having to readjust.
1045
Canada's action plan on aboriginal issues recognizes the
important role played by education in ensuring a promising
future to aboriginal communities in general, and to young people
in particular. If the bill is passed, we will have to ensure
that these young people—who will have attended elementary and
secondary schools run by the first nations—are prepared to make
a smooth transition to post-secondary institutions. I do not have
to tell you how hard it is nowadays for people to find work if
they did not get a proper education.
If the bill becomes law, the three parties involved, namely the
federal government, Nova Scotia and the participating first
nations, will know how to make a success of this initiative.
While the federal government should not have to hold the hand of
those who will run the new institutions, it will have to form a
partnership with aboriginal people, until they are fully able to
look after their own institutions.
In any case, the federal government is only involved in
education when it comes to aboriginal communities, since
education is under provincial jurisdiction.
Nova Scotia agrees with transferring to the Mi'kmaq jurisdiction
over education on the reserves. We must now ensure that the
federal government takes into consideration the province's
co-operation and agreement regarding this issue.
The consultations that led up to the bill took a long time. The
consultations with Nova Scotia's first nations alone lasted 18
months. The Mi'kmaw Kina'matnewey did everything necessary to
distribute the information to all the first nations concerned.
It not only informed those directly involved, namely aboriginal
people, but also all the stakeholders in Nova Scotia's education
system. All agree that this must be done, and nine of the 13
Mi'kmaq communities, which represent about 8,900 people, are
prepared to go ahead with the project.
I just used a term we should use with great care. I am referring
to the word “community”. I wonder about the definition of that
word in the bill. Does it mean that a band council does not
represent only one community? Also, in French, do the words
”collectivité” and “communauté” mean the same thing? There is a
reference to negotiating with band councils, but the Royal
Commission on Aboriginal People recommended that agreements be
negotiated with nations, not band councils.
I would like to draw the attention of the House to the costs
that will go along with implementation of this system if the
bill is accepted. It is said that, in order for the signatory
communities to be able to exercise their powers under the final
agreement, the parties will have to reach agreements providing
financial resources. There is talk of $24 million from the
financial framework already in place within the department. Is
this a one-time payment, like a separation payment, or is it a
recurring amount, to be paid for by all of the taxpayers, year
in and year out?
As well, I hope that the scenario proposed is for there to be a
single school board for all nine communities, or some sort of
consolidation of boards if there is not just one, so as to
minimize expenses and avoid the taxpayers' having to pay for
unjustified infrastructures.
If this is not the case, allow me to point out that the
Government of Quebec, in its desire to put public finances on an
even keel, is doing absolutely everything within its power at
the present time to reduce education expenditures.
The educational field has been hard hit, as have many others,
and decreasing the number of school boards by combining a number
of them into one has not always been the best solution.
1050
But rationalization is the new watchword, and school boards have
bowed to government demands. In my riding of Manicouagan alone,
the five school boards have been reduced to three. The distance
between cities is enormous in some cases. The Fermont school
board, for instance, has been merged with that of Sept-Îles. The
only means of transportation between these two cities is by air.
Quebeckers would therefore take it very ill if their tax dollars
were used to fund small school boards.
I also draw the House's attention to the precedent that could be
set by this new bill. It would not be surprising, in fact, if
other first nations were to call for the same powers with
respect to education.
Although the Mi'kmaq live within a well-defined and fairly
limited area, at least in Nova Scotia, the same is not true of
aboriginals such as the Montagnais, who are scattered throughout
Quebec.
Aboriginals are calling for increasing autonomy and, as I
mentioned a bit earlier in my speech, the Bloc Quebecois has
heard the message loud and clear. To those who have perhaps not
taken it in yet, I will quote something the late René Lévesque
said at a historic meeting with aboriginals in 1978.
Mr. Lévesque said:
Because we do not know each other, we cannot know what, in each
other's identity, we must respect. We cannot know what
aspirations and ideas to respect because they are unknown to us.
Nothing can be built on ignorance.
In closing, I would mention that the Bloc Quebecois is in favour
of Bill C-30, which deals with the transfer of jurisdiction over
education from the federal government to the nine first nations
in Nova Scotia that signed the February 14 agreement, but would
remind the House that all aspects of the bill must be examined
and analysed.
In my speech, I referred to the fact that the Bloc Quebecois is
still in favour of autonomy for provinces and aboriginal
peoples, and especially for Quebec. We feel that education and
the health system are the purview of Quebec alone. The federal
government has pulled out, taking the money with it, and told
the provinces: Make it work. We are keeping the money and
leaving you to look after the education system.
[English]
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to rise today to speak to Bill C-30, an act respecting
the powers of the Mi'kmaq in Nova Scotia in relation to
education. I am not going to speak too much on the actual
content of the bill, as former speakers have done that.
The purpose of this bill is to implement an agreement signed by
the government and nine of the 13 Mi'kmaq communities in Nova
Scotia. It gives these communities control over primary and
secondary education, at least for those band members and non-band
members who live on reserve. It is interesting that it does not
apply to band members who do not live on reserve.
This bill has been presented by the minister as part of the
answer to RCAP. However, the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia have been
working on this since January 1991. It is something that has not
just come up, it has been in the works for some time.
This bill is the first of its kind. It is interesting that Phil
Fontaine has referred to this bill as a historic piece of
legislation. That concerns me. If viewed as a historic piece of
legislation, my guess is that it will be applied in the future to
other reserves across the country. Therefore, it should be of
concern to any member of parliament who has a reserve in his or
her constituency. I will speak later on this from that point of
view.
1055
I want to again stress that this has not been supported by all
13 Mi'kmaq reserves in the area. There are four groups which so
far have not supported the legislation. Two of the four are not
supporting it because they are waiting to see how it all comes
together.
Before I get too far into my presentation, I would like to ask
for the unanimous consent of the House to share my time with the
hon. member for Cypress Hills—Grasslands.
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member does not need consent
to share his time. He is entitled to divide his time because we
are now into 20 minute speeches. His colleague needed it because
he was on a 40 minute speech. Therefore, if the hon. member
indicates he is dividing his time it is divided ipso facto.
Mr. Leon E. Benoit: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate
the explanation.
This legislation has not been supported by all 13 reserves.
There are two reserves which do not support it because they want
to see how it will all come together. However, there are two
other reserves that think the federal government should not
abandon its responsibilities.
Beginning last November and early December I put together an
aboriginal task force in my constituency. From a group of 20 we
came up with four members who helped me with the process. The
purpose of this task force was to hear concerns from aboriginals
in the constituency and to hear their recommendations with
respect to dealing with these concerns.
One of the things this task force heard as it listened to
aboriginal Canadians in the constituency, both status and
non-status Indians, Metis and anyone else who wanted to make a
presentation to us, was that there was certainly not unanimous—
The Speaker: My colleague, you will of course have the
floor when we resume debate. As it is almost 11 o'clock we will
now go to Statements by Members.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
WALLEYE FISHING DERBY
Mr. Larry McCormick (Hastings—Frontenac—Lennox and
Addington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this weekend marks the annual
walleye fishing derby, Walleye '98, in Napanee, in my riding of
Hastings—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington and in the neighbouring
Bay of Quinte.
Established in 1954 by Chuck McGarvey, it has evolved over the
years into the biggest catch and live release walleye tournament
in North America.
This year organizers expect as many as 6,000 registered anglers
to participate from all over the country. Walleye '98 is also on
the Internet, making it easier for many anglers to fish for
details.
Money brought in from ticket sales is redirected back into
community oriented projects and to conservation organizations.
This event exemplifies one of the many things rural communities
do to promote tourism and to bolster their local economies.
I salute the Napanee Rod and Gun Club and the sponsors and
volunteers who make this family oriented event a success every
year. I extend a warm invitation to my colleagues in the House
and to all to the walleye weekend, May 2 and 3. May all
participants have a safe and enjoyable weekend.
* * *
HEPATITIS C
Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, over the past four days the Prime Minister and the
Minister of Health have spoken about hepatitis C victims as cases
and files, little more than legal briefs to be closed.
Expediency is their mantra, not compassion.
Today let me put a human element to this disease and tell them
about Sara MacDougall. Sara has hepatitis C.
In 1988 Sara was stabbed in a Calgary parking lot and left to
die. Blood transfusions and 12 major surgeries saved her, sort
of. Sara received tainted blood through the transfusions.
She is now a victim, not a file.
1100
Sara fortunately falls under the compensation guidelines, but
Sara is not taking the package unless everyone who suffers from
hepatitis C is compensated.
There is a message here for the Prime Minister and the Minister
of Health. Will they listen?
* * *
UNITY PEAK
Mr. David Pratt (Nepean—Carleton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on
June 21 a group of students from South Carleton High School in my
riding will stand atop a very special mountain in the Alberta
Rockies. The mountain is called Unity Peak. The 85 participating
students along with their teachers and parents can be proud that
they were granted the privilege of naming this peak themselves, a
first for any high school in Canada.
Two years ago just after the Quebec referendum, the students and
their teacher, Marc Bourgon, decided to do something special in
the name of Canadian unity.
Since then they have fundraised over $90,000, researched and
studied their way to a plan to both name and climb Unity Peak.
While they are on site these enterprising young students will
collect geological samples and start a three year environmental
impact study on the effects of tourism on the Lake Louise area.
They will also be raising money for the Canadian Cancer Society.
I am pleased to say that I have accepted their invitation to
join them on their 3,153 metre climb. Congratulations to everyone
involved in the Unity Peak initiative. I look forward to joining
them on June 21 on this climb for Canada.
* * *
STS. CYRIL AND METHODIUS UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
Mr. Walt Lastewka (St. Catharines, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
today I am honoured to celebrate the official heritage
designation of Sts. Cyril and Methodius Ukrainian Catholic Church
in St. Catharines.
The church was constructed from 1944 to 1946 to support a
growing Ukrainian population. The first Ukrainian settlers had
come to St. Catharines in the early 1900s. They came to work on
the Fourth Welland Canal, in the papermills and the automotive
industry. More importantly they came to work the soil for the
tender fruit, vegetable and wine industry, for it was the warm
weather and the rich soil of Niagara that reminded them of their
native land.
As a Canadian of Ukrainian descent I am proud to say that my
father Michael was one of the church pioneers. He and many other
Ukrainian settlers founded this beautiful church, designed in the
Byzantine revival style by Belgium architect Reverend Philip Ruh.
I join with the congregation in honouring those who built this
church and in celebrating its official heritage designation. Sts.
Cyril and Methodius Ukrainian Catholic Church has always been and
will continue to be a special place of worship and fellowship in
St. Catharines.
* * *
NATIONAL TEXTILES WEEK
Ms. Eleni Bakopanos (Ahuntsic, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, last
week, April 20 to 26 marked national textiles week in Canada
which was organized by the Textiles Human Resources Council to
focus on innovation and excellence within the Canadian textile
industry.
[Translation]
I recently had the opportunity to visit Silver Textiles, a
textile manufacturing firm in my riding of Ahuntsic. There I
noted the technology and innovative processes that have
propelled the rapid growth of the textile industry.
Since 1988, exports have tripled, capital investments have
reached unprecedented levels and even jobs have increased in the
past five years from 50,000 in 1993 to 56,000 in 1997.
Doubletex and Montreal Fast Print are textile manufacturers also
located in my riding of Ahuntsic.
[English]
Another example of the way this government has helped Canadian
entrepreneurs become competitive at home and on the international
scene are programs such as le programme de développement des
marchés d'exportation and le programme d'aide à la recherche
industrielle.
* * *
HUMAN RIGHTS
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, 1998
marks the 50th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human
Rights. On December 10, 1948 the General Assembly of the United
Nations, of which Canada is a member, affirmed the basic rights
of all individuals on earth.
Since then we have come a long way in terms of respecting the
basic human dignity of people around the world. Whether it
involved the freeing of colonies from imperialist rule, the
ending of legislated discrimination in South Africa or the
collapse of oppressive regimes across eastern Europe, we have
made tremendous progress since 1948. However as Tiananmen Square
and more recently Kosovo have taught us, the struggle for freedom
is not yet finished.
Let us pause for a moment to congratulate ourselves for the
strides we have made. Then let us get back to work to ensure
that all people's rights are respected.
* * *
[Translation]
INTERNATIONAL WORKERS DAY
Mr. Jacques Saada (Brossard—La Prairie, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
would like to draw particular attention to May 1, International
Workers Day.
In a changing economy, the conditions of workers continue to
change at the dawn of the year 2000. We can never stress enough
the vital contribution made by this part of the active
workforce, which is causing society to grow.
Some will say the work environment is better than in recent
years and others will say that globalization has had a definite
impact on the quality of life.
1105
Whatever the case, all governments must give priority to job
creation while not losing sight of an essential element of the
quality of our life, which is the implementation of measures to
fully protect the health and safety of workers.
In the new world order we are trying to establish, civil society
will be given a vital role to play. Workers will therefore be
called on to play a larger part.
with
* * *
INTERNATIONAL WORKERS DAY
Mr. Ghislain Fournier (Manicouagan, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the Bloc
Quebecois is proud today to mark International Workers Day.
In 1998, 58% of workers in Quebec are not unionized. They are
often the people working in difficult conditions and run the
risk of facing psychological harassment or other abuse.
In addition, workers who lose their jobs have an increasingly
difficult time qualifying for employment insurance, since the
reforms by the Chrétien government penalize them.
Given this situation, the Bloc Quebecois commits to continue the
fight to defend workers' rights.
* * *
CÉLINE DION
Mr. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, today singer
Céline Dion will be receiving the Order of Canada, in
recognition of her world-renowned talent which brings honour to
all of Canada. But it is also in recognition of her efforts
throughout her life to hone that talent now so familiar to us
all.
We all congratulate Céline on the honours paid to her this week,
and we are proud to see her conquering the world and making
everyone everywhere aware of the Canadian music industry.
She has come a long way since her first television appearance
with Michel Jasmin, or when she sang “Une colombe est partie en
voyage” for the Pope in 1984. Like the dove in that song, our
songbird Céline has gone far, to become a fully-developed artist,
and the ideal spokeswoman for Canadian culture.
Céline Dion deserves our utmost admiration for her skyrocketing
rise to fame, characterized by such gusto and professionalism.
Thank you, Céline, for representing us so admirably, and good
luck in your continuing career.
* * *
[English]
THE SENATE
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, Alberta
Premier Ralph Klein is bravely proceeding with Senate elections.
He knows it is time to give senators the respect of explicit
approval of the voters.
We get only doublespeak from Liberals on this subject. In 1993
the Prime Minister promised “We will have an elected Senate. As
Prime Minister I can make this happen.” Now in power, he does
just the opposite. The justice minister says that the
constitution requires the Prime Minister to make the appointments
but she fails to mention there is nothing preventing him from
appointing a person who has been chosen by the people.
What about Liberal Senator Nick Taylor? He was a key opposition
player in carving out the Alberta Senatorial Selection Act 10
years ago, but now he says that mental patients on leave from
psychiatric wards will be seeking the position. What an insult
to candidates. What an insult to Albertans. What an insult to
people with mental disabilities. He should be ashamed of
himself. He should run for election and test whether this kind
of outrageous statement has the support of Albertans.
* * *
INTERNATIONAL LABOUR DAY
Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain (Guelph—Wellington, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to bring to your attention that today, May
1, is International Labour Day.
On the eve of the next millennium, the economy is ever changing
and so are labour conditions. One cannot stress enough the
importance of the labour force's contribution to Canada's social
development and economic growth.
Some will say that the work environment is better than in the
past, while others fear that such things as globalization are
certain to affect the quality of life of Canadian workers.
Whatever the case, all governments must make job creation a
priority without losing sight of the fact that to improve our
quality of life we have to ensure that measures are taken to
protect the health and safety of all Canadian workers.
I salute our Canadian workers.
* * *
MAY DAY
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr. Speaker, since
1889 workers around the world have celebrated the history of our
struggle on May 1. This date was chosen to commemorate the
hay market massacre in Chicago where police opened fire on workers
whose only offence was to demonstrate for the eight hour work
day, something which we all take for granted today.
I am proud that in this country our labour code does enshrine
workers rights. We are currently in the process of enhancing that
code and strengthening it, in spite of an anti-union official
opposition.
On May Day, Canadian trade unionists remember our own history of
struggle. We commit ourselves with renewed determination to
support the struggles of working people the world over.
1110
Based on the principle that what we want for ourselves we wish
for all people, we stand in solidarity with the Australian dock
workers, with the workers on the roads in Burma, garment workers
in Indonesia and in the maquiladoras in Mexico.
We all move forward when we move forward together.
* * *
ENVIRONMENT
Hon. Charles Caccia (Davenport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, by
withdrawing from a group opposed to greenhouse gas reductions,
Royal Dutch Shell has dealt a blow to the oil industry coalition
opposing the Kyoto treaty on greenhouse gases. Shell says that it
supports ratification of the treaty on reduced emissions
responsible for climate change.
Shell's support for the Kyoto treaty reveals an important policy
shift in favour of an increasing dependence on energy efficiency,
conservation and renewable resources in anticipation of the fact
that we will one day run out of non-renewable sources of energy.
Shell's far-sighted decision sets an example to the petroleum
industry which is still being dragged reluctantly into the 21st
century.
* * *
HEALTH CARE
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Tobique—Mactaquac, PC): Mr. Speaker,
I rise today to say how this government's 40% cut to health care
is hurting vulnerable Canadians in our society.
Charles Chase, a disabled adult from my riding of
Tobique—Mactaquac, depends on the services he receives in
community residence to live. Cuts in health care transfers have
dramatically reduced staffing and services for the disabled who
live in these facilities.
Now Charles' future and the future of other disabled people are
threatened as more cuts are anticipated. If this trend
continues, Charles and people like him face being moved to a
nursing home. They will be institutionalized and their quality
of life will be lost.
Charles and his parents did not choose for him to be disabled.
He was born with his disability but he and other disabled people
have a right to live independently and to participate in the
everyday life of their communities.
If we cannot take care of those who need help most, then this
government has failed in its duty to the people. This is just
one example of how this government's drastic cuts to health care
are causing great hardship for those who are least able to defend
themselves.
* * *
[Translation]
SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, this week
in Jonquière, the Pyrovac group announced it would be investing
$40 million to develop a new technology, unique to Quebec and a
world's first, recycling by pyrolysis. This new process of
pyrolysing ground and dried bark will yield wood oils and
charcoal, both of which are in considerable demand commercially.
This innovation holds great promise for yet another means of
exploiting the resources of Quebec's forests, and fits into the
strategy for sustainable development of the resources nature
makes available to us.
At a time when we are particularly concerned with battling the
greenhouse effect, without a doubt this procedure of converting
organic material into valued added products will draw world
attention, and will place Quebec in an advantageous position in
the renewable energy market.
* * *
[English]
MICHELIN CANADA
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, there is good economic news in Pictou county, Nova
Scotia. On April 9 Michelin Canada announced an additional
investment of $75 million to expand its operations at its
facilities in Granton.
By installing a new rubber mixing line at the Granton plant,
this innovative company will not only create upward of 70 jobs,
but also will contribute $15 million worth of contracts for local
companies. This amount is in addition to the $25 million
directed to local contractors that resulted from the previous
Michelin expansion.
I am however concerned about the recent musings from the Liberal
government to phase out the Atlantic Canada investment tax
credit. Along with Nova Scotia's strong work ethic and great
quality of life, it is one of the many attractive incentives to
private sector job creation.
I urge the government to continue this tax incentive so that we
will have more economic success stories like Michelin, a cutting
edge company that directly employs more than 3,500 Nova Scotians.
* * *
SOUTH SURREY EAGLES HOCKEY TEAM
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise on behalf of the people of Surrey Central to congratulate
the South Surrey Eagles hockey team for winning the Doyle Cup
championship for the second year. Now the Eagles are soaring to
the Pacific Region Royal Bank Cup national championships tomorrow
in Nanaimo. The people of Surrey Central are proud and wish them
every success.
I urge all members of the House to take an interest in the
sports activities of the young people in their ridings. Our
young athletes should be encouraged to pursue the social, health
and fitness benefits they receive from their sports activities.
Youth should be encouraged to get involved in the community and
to be a part of the solutions to our problems. Young athletes
like the players on the South Surrey Eagles present fine role
models for all young people in Canada.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
1115
[English]
HEPATITIS C
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, for weeks the Prime Minister has claimed that he could
not possibly compensate all the victims of hepatitis C because
the provinces would not agree, but every day now another province
announces that it is willing to develop a new deal. Instead of
responding with hope or encouragement, the Prime Minister
castigates the provinces and engages in name calling.
Instead of being petty, why does the Prime Minister not show
some leadership and agree to work with the provinces for a new
compensation package?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, in spite of comments reported on the part of some
provincial ministers and one provincial legislature, no
provincial government, no territorial government has withdrawn
from the accord they entered into some months ago in which they
said that only post-1986 victims should be compensated and for
which responsibility should be shared and for which they were
putting up $300 million. That actually as a matter of fact has
not changed.
Speaking of being petty, we are not being petty. We are putting
$800 million on the table.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, a real leader would have responded to the provinces with
an open mind instead of with insults or statements like this.
After all, if anyone has a right to be angry, it is the provinces
themselves. They have been bad mouthed in this House with
respect to their role. They are the ones that are paying the
medical bills for the victims. They are the ones that have had
their health care funding cut by billions of dollars by this
government.
Is it not true that the real reason for the hold-up here is that
the Prime Minister does not know how to help the victims without
losing political face?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is the last person to talk
about cuts to health care. After all, he was going to scrap the
Canada Health Act, bring in a two tier health system and make
Canadians pay for private health insurance and user fees. Now
another attack of crocodile tears.
After all, we are still providing billions and billions of
dollars for the health care system which, if he had his way, he
would eliminate.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, real leadership would do three things for these victims.
First of all the Prime Minister would get the premiers together
and negotiate a new deal. Second, they would confirm the facts,
and the facts are what Krever said, that there was a test before
1986 and he confirmed the number of victims. Third, they would
instruct the finance minister to find the money to finance this
package within the existing spending envelopes by reallocating
resources.
Why will the government not simply swallow its pride and get on
with the job?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the Leader of the Opposition does not understand the callous game
that some of these provinces are playing.
I was the one who was at the table. I was the one who was in
the room last summer when the minister of health for Ontario said
he would not discuss compensation for any victims under any
circumstances, saying he was afraid that if he did so, people on
waiting lists for surgery who were not operated upon early enough
would sue him. I was in the room when the minister of health from
British Columbia said compensation for nobody because there are
problems with children's aid and they would be suing too.
It was the federal government showing leadership that got this
issue on the national agenda.
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, we do not
want to hear from the discredited health minister unless he is
standing up to announce a compensation package or his
resignation.
[Translation]
On behalf of the official opposition, I want to commend the
Quebec government's leadership in speaking out on the issue of
compensating all hepatitis C victims.
This is a time when francophones and anglophones, separatists
and federalists alike, are united on what is best for all
hepatitis C victims.
Does the Prime Minister at least plan to hold discussions with
the provinces to—
The Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member. I now
recognize the hon. Minister of Health.
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
Government of Quebec agreed with us to compensate those victims
who were infected between 1986 and 1990. This week, it changed
its position with respect to what the appropriate period should
be.
1120
This was a cynical and meaningless move. It is politics at its
worst. They told victims “You should indeed be compensated, but
we will not compensate you”. That is cynical, inappropriate and
cruel for the victims.
[English]
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, a
discredited minister, a discredited answer.
The provinces have simply said “We are now willing to
discuss”. The federal government is acting like a petulant
schoolchild who will take their marbles away so nobody can play.
If political opponents can set aside their differences, why
cannot the federal government at least sit down at the table and
talk about compensation for all the victims of hepatitis C?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, in reply to the petulant and discredited health critic
of the Reform Party, if he would drop his petulance and rely on
the facts he would recognize that it was the federal government
which sat down with the provinces and brought about the agreement
which still stands, to which all the provinces, through their
governments, are continuing to say that only post-1986 victims
should be compensated. While the federal government put on the
table $800 million, the provinces admitted their own
responsibility and put $300 million on the table.
Those are the facts and the critic's petulance will not change
anything, no matter what the tone of his questions may be.
[Translation]
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Quebec government was pleased with the agreement and still is,
but it will not turn a deaf ear to the calls of the public,
which is asking that all victims be compensated.
When will the minister realize that he is now isolated and that
he has no choice, but to compensate all victims?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
position adopted this week by the Quebec government is
unacceptable. Indeed, it has come up with a very important
principle, namely that someone else should pay, not the Quebec
government. But this would not be appropriate.
The public knows full well that this is cynical and
unacceptable. It is hypocritical.
[English]
The Speaker: My colleagues, I would once again ask you to
stay away from words such as hypocrisy. They do not add to the
debate. The hon. member for Rimouski—Mitis.
[Translation]
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, so far
the federal government has cut $7 billion in transfer payments
to the provinces for health, and it is not over yet.
At the same time, it may end up with a surplus of about $4
billion for the year that ended on March 31, 1998. With all the
money that is available, how can the minister have the nerve to
claim that he cannot afford to compensate all hepatitis C
victims?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
Quebec government and the Bloc are very sensitive to the issue
of provincial jurisdiction, particularly for Quebec.
Minister Rochon has often told me that health is an exclusive
provincial jurisdiction. This is not true. But now, the Quebec
government is saying that the federal government alone must pay
for the victims infected before 1986. This is cynical and
totally unacceptable.
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Health. He can say what he
likes but everyone knows that the federal government has the
means to compensate all hepatitis C victims and that the
provinces do not.
Rather than making ill-advised decisions, such as the one to
spend $750 million on submarines or fork out $2 billion for
military equipment that does not even meet the army's
requirements, what will it take for this minister to show some
compassion and compensate all hepatitis C victims as the people
of Quebec and of Canada are calling on him to do? The federal
government should come up with the money.
1125
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
government has already agreed to share responsibility with the
provinces. If it had not, why did they put down $300 million to
compensate victims? It is too late to say that the provinces
are not responsible. The provinces, especially the province of
Quebec, have already admitted and accepted this responsibility.
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker, this
money, which comes out of taxpayers' pockets, must be returned
to those of us in the greatest difficulty.
Does the minister understand that he is not being asked to be
generous, but to be compassionate, humane, and to compensate all
hepatitis C victims by extending the agreement signed between
the federal government and the provinces?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
according to La Presse, Quebec's health minister, Jean Rochon,
said, and I quote: It is the provinces that are responsible for
running the Canadian blood system. The federal government has
no business interfering. Mr. Rock's only business is to see
that standards are met.
This speaks volumes about the provinces' responsibility in this
issue.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my question
is for the Minister of Health.
The minister has often said in the House that he had the support
of the provinces in the matter of hepatitis C, however, thanks
to Liberal Daniel Johnson, Quebec is no longer on side and
neither are Ontario, British Columbia, Manitoba or Alberta.
Given the provincial support for another proposal, is the
minister prepared to reopen the matter and come up with fairer
compensation for all victims of this disease?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
hon. member is mistaken. He should read the replies by Lucien
Bouchard and Jean Rochon. This week they said “We have adopted
the appropriate principle to protect the health care system by
compensating only those infected during the period of time
authorities should have acted”. That is what Lucien Bouchard
and Jean Rochon said this week.
They changed their position—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Qu'Appelle.
[English]
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr. Speaker, it is
not about saving face, it is about showing leadership, Mr.
Minister. The file is open. I repeat, the file is open, Mr.
Minister. The provinces—
The Speaker: My colleague, please address your questions
through the Chair. I would ask the member to go directly to his
question.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom: Mr. Speaker, I want to know today
whether or not the minister will put more money on the table
since the government has a surplus and it cut back billions of
dollars in transfer payments for health to the provinces. Is he
going to put more money on the table and fairly compensate all
the victims of hepatitis C as the provincial health ministers are
now calling for?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
as Premier Romanow was saying last Friday when he visited Ottawa,
governments are doing the right thing. They are showing
leadership; the federal government most of all by offering
compensation to those who were injured at a time when governments
could have prevented it. The governments of Canada are taking
that position because it is the right thing to do and the hon.
member knows it.
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Tobique—Mactaquac, PC): Mr. Speaker,
this morning the Saskatchewan health minister is holding a
conference call with all provincial health ministers. Quebec,
Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia have recognized that more
must be done to compensate all hepatitis C victims. If the
provinces come to the federal health minister with a request to
renegotiate the compensation package, will the minister reopen
the file?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
as the Deputy Prime Minister pointed out just a few moments ago,
there is not one provincial or territorial government that has
said it is withdrawing from the agreement to contribute to an
offer of compensation of $1.1 billion.
1130
Instead, what has happened is that some provincial ministers
have engaged in the empty, hollow, cynical exercise of saying
“Oh, yes, others should be offered compensation too. But we are
not going to do it”.
The Canadian people will see that for what it is. They will
also see the federal government standing on the principle it
thinks is right and showing courage and leadership.
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Tobique—Mactaquac, PC): Mr.
Speaker, the ultimate constitutional authority for protection of
blood and blood products rests with the federal Minister of
Health. He has the final authority on compensation. The only
reason the government is in this mess today is because it has a
health minister who obviously cannot do his job.
The minister has only two choices. Will he reopen the
compensation file or do everyone a favour and resign?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I shall do what the Prime Minister and this government have done
from the outset. I shall do the right thing.
We have proceeded on the correct principle in offering cash
payments to those who were injured as result of institutional
fault.
For the others, I invite the hon. member and all other members
of this House to work with this government on its agenda to
strengthen medicare so that all of those who are ill in this
country can have the highest possible quality of care. That, at
the end of the day, is our most fundamental obligation.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, he keeps referring to his opponents in the provinces as
cynical and callous. I will tell the House what is cynical and
callous. It is throwing half the victims of hepatitis C out of
the lifeboat. It is coercing these backbenchers into supporting
a position and then pretending to take the high ground.
If the minister wants to do away with cynicism, I suggest he
excise it from his government, from his caucus and from his own
heart.
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
nothing is less edifying for the people of Canada than to see
this kind of display of name calling.
People have watched the theatre over there this week. They have
seen the member for Macleod, that party's health critic, who has
become the chief ambulance chaser for the opposition. They have
seen the opposition refer to a 15 year old child as a victim of
this tragedy without even knowing if that 15 year old is covered
by the compensation that has been offered. They do not even
understand the package. They do not even know what we offering.
Yet, they stand to call names—
The Speaker: I would encourage my colleagues to please
stay from personal remarks as much as you can.
The hon. Leader of the Opposition.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I will tell the House what is edifying. This lawyer in
health minister's clothing stood in the House and told the House
repeatedly that he has the support of the provinces behind his
limited compensation package, when the fact and the truth is that
he does not have that support. It is being shredded away every
day.
Since the health minister has misled the House on this issue of
provincial support for his package, why does the Prime Minister
not demand his resignation? Why should we listen to the repeat
of these arguments?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we should listen to the minister because he is an
outstanding minister. He is doing a first class job.
The leader of the Reform Party has brought forward no
information to say that the provincial governments, as such, have
left the accord. They are still there. They are accepting
responsibility. If that was not the case why did they put $300
million on the table and not leave everything to the federal
government? The facts show that this is a shared responsibility
and the federal government has certainly accepted more than its
share.
* * *
[Translation]
PAY EQUITY
Ms. Hélène Alarie (Louis-Hébert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is
for the President of Treasury Board.
Pay equity is not negotiable, it is a matter of justice.
Section 11 of the Human Rights Act was adopted in 1977 in order
to put an end to economic inequality between men and women in
the workplace.
What is the President of Treasury Board waiting for before
sitting down with the Public Service Alliance to settle the pay
equity issue, which has dragged on since 1997, once and for all?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and Minister
responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the matter
of pay equity is clearly one in which the government has made
the right proposals. The government made a proposal which now,
in light of the most recent court decisions, is seen as having
been very generous.
1135
On numerous occasions we have asked the unions to pass the offer
on to their membership because we are convinced that the
majority of their members would vote in favour of the government
offer.
I beg my hon. colleague to try to change the inflexibility of
the union leadership and to ask them to submit our offer to
their members.
Ms. Hélène Alarie (Louis-Hébert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, does the
President of Treasury Board realize that his actions are sending
the message to major employers under federal jurisdiction that
legal obligations can be avoided by challenging them before the
courts?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and Minister
responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if there is
one group which is demanding negotiation of the pay equity
issue, it is the group dealing with pay equity matters within
the government.
We have tried for months and months to reach a negotiated
conclusion. In fact, at the present time it is the unions which
are stopping their membership from voting on a more than
generous offer from the federal government.
* * *
[English]
HEPATITIS C
Mr. Maurice Vellacott (Wanuskewin, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
what is cynical is when the government does not acknowledge that
the provinces will be paying $1.6 billion in health services over
the years ahead because of the negligence of this government. It
has not acknowledged that it was not the fault of the provinces.
The federal regulators were at fault and this federal government.
Yesterday we had revealed something about the character of the
Prime Minister when he responded to the provinces calling for new
negotiations to compensate hepatitis C victims. He could have
said “I am willing to discuss it. I am open to new ideas. I
have some concerns, but together we can overcome them”. A true
leader would put personal frustrations aside and sit down with
the provinces to work out a new deal. Instead, he—
The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health.
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
for the last five weeks in this House we have stood on the
principle that governments should pay cash compensation when they
have caused damages and when those responsible for the system
could and should have acted. That is an important principle.
It is true to say that in the last couple of days some of the
health ministers and some of the premiers of this country have
departed from that principle, but Canadians will see that for
what it is. They depart from the principle but they then say
that Ottawa must pay, not them. It is easy to cry crocodile
tears and then say that someone else should be responsible.
Mr. Maurice Vellacott (Wanuskewin, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the provinces will be paying to the tune of $1.6 billion in
addition to that $300 million in the years ahead because of the
fault of this federal government.
Let us be very clear that it was the federal government that had
responsibility for regulating the blood supply. The provinces
had no statutory authority in this matter. It is irresponsible
for this Prime Minister to now blame the provinces. It is
juvenile and petty to use that kind of hostile rhetoric. Why
does he not take seriously the federal government's obligation
and show even a hint of prime ministerial leadership by improving
the package to hepatitis C victims?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, if the hon. member is correct in what he is saying, why
did the provinces agree to be part of the March agreement and put
$300 million on the table? If it is entirely the federal
government's fault, then the provinces were certainly wrong
themselves to be part of the agreement.
If it is entirely the federal government's responsibility, why
is he asking the federal government to open discussions with the
provinces? The hon. member's arguments simply do not add up.
* * *
[Translation]
TOKAMAK PROJECT
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question
is for the Minister of Natural Resources.
In reply to a question which I asked a few weeks ago to his
colleague, the environment minister, the Minister of Natural
Resources said, and I quote “With respect to the need to expand
in terms of renewable energy, alternative sources of energy,
co-generation projects and so forth, indeed those are very much a
part of our agenda to deal with climate change”.
Can the minister tell us if nuclear fusion is among these new
forms of renewable energy covered by what he refers to as “our
agenda to deal with climate change”?
[English]
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, Canada is very fortunate to have a very broad mix of
energy sources and it is important that we use all of those
sources prudently and wisely.
1140
Some of those sources are still in the realm of scientific
development. The one the hon. gentleman refers to is one of
those. There is certainly interest in that subject matter but it
is one of a very long term nature that does not seem to have a
short term payback in terms of dealing with issues like climate
change, say in the next five to ten years.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères, BQ): Mr. Speaker, how can the
minister reconcile the nice principles that he is referring to
now and that he referred to a few weeks ago with his
government's unjustifiable decision to cut its modest annual
contribution of $7.2 million to the Tokamak project, in
Varennes?
[English]
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the scientific activity the hon. gentleman refers to is
scientific activity that is perfectly legitimate and valid but
has a return period that is some 20, 30 or 40 years into the
future.
In terms of dealing with the climate change issues we must deal
with in the next 5 to 10 years, obviously the timing horizon of
30 or 40 years into the future is not particularly helpful. That
is not, though, to undermine or to demean the importance of
fusion research and it is a subject matter that may well—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Fraser Valley.
* * *
HEPATITIS C
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
today the provinces are getting together and are trying to
develop some sort of compensation package, or at least they are
realizing that right now in this country there are two two tiers
of victims, pre-1986 and post-1986. They realize there is
something wrong with that kind of package.
They are trying in their own way to develop another package that
could address the needs of all those victims.
Will the Prime Minister do the right thing today and meet with
those provincial counterparts, convene a meeting to see if there
is some way we can look after the needs of all hepatitis C
victims?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
we have an agreement with the provinces and I have heard no
province say it is abandoning that agreement.
The agreement calls on both levels of government to contribute a
sum of money to be offered to people who were harmed when it
could have been prevented.
Let us remember the basis of this. Money or damages or cash
payments are being offered to people who were harmed when it
could have been prevented. That is what is at issue here. For
those who were infected before when it could not have been
prevented, we are taking a different approach.
The Canadian people support that and I invite the member and his
colleagues to join with us in our ambitious agenda to strengthen
medicare to provide—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Fraser Valley.
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
discredited health minister knows there were tests available
prior to 1986. He knows Horace Krever has documented that in his
study on the issue.
Why does the Prime Minister not convene a national meeting of
premiers or health ministers and himself, show some leadership,
invite Horace Krever to talk about who is liable and when the
tests were available, and then develop a compensation package for
all hepatitis C victims? Do the steps, one, two, three and it
will work.
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Mr. Justice Krever wrote four volumes of the report. If the
member will look at them he will see that it was clear that by
early 1986 the governments and those responsible for the blood
system should have put tests in place and did not.
Canadians understand there is a difference between someone who
is harmed when we could have prevented it and someone who faces a
risk inherent in the clinical medical system. They also
understand that if we offer cash to people who become ill just
because they become ill, we cannot go on.
Governments have taken the tough decision to make that
distinction and do the right thing.
* * *
[Translation]
OLD AGE PENSIONS
Mr. Maurice Dumas (Argenteuil—Papineau, BQ): Mr. Speaker, on
several occasions, I asked the Minister of Finance questions on
old age pensions. It would seem that, pressured by many
organizations, including the AFEAS, the minister has now changed
his mind. But we still do not know what he has to propose.
When will the minister inform us of his intentions so that
present and future retirees can stop worrying?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International Financial
Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in the 1996 budget, the
minister announced changes to old age pensions, which provide
that every Canadian whose yearly income is over $40,000 will
have to pay more.
On Monday, the minister had discussions with groups of seniors
from across Canada. Discussions will continue, and he will take
their views into account.
* * *
1145
YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT
Mr. Roy Cullen (Etobicoke North, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my question
is for the Secretary of State (Children and Youth).
There has been much talk about government measures to help
students who plan to go to university but a lot less about the
situation of those, and they are the majority, who do not and
who face a much higher unemployment rate than university
graduates.
Could the secretary of state tell this House what concrete steps
the government has taken to help these young people?
[English]
Hon. Ethel Blondin-Andrew (Secretary of State (Children and
Youth), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this year alone our youth
employment strategy is helping over 95,000 youth to get valuable
work experience to break the no experience, no work dilemma they
undergo.
Under the strategy we are funding worthy projects, hundreds of
them, making the bridge between school to work for young people.
One great example of this is on May 14 the Minister of Human
Resources Development will attend, along with 750 students in
Vancouver, the fifth national skills Canada competition.
Seventy-five per cent of youth do not go on to university and we
need to encourage them—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Calgary Southeast.
* * *
HEPATITIS C
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
this brilliant Minister of Health has advised us there are four
volumes—
The Speaker: Order. What we have here is one member
saying this fellow is discredited, the other one is discredited,
and we are just going back and forth. I appeal to members to
address one another as hon. colleagues. I think that would help
matters a bit for all of us.
Mr. Jason Kenney: Mr. Speaker, this health minister who
has done so much research into the hepatitis C issue just advised
us that there were four volumes of the Krever report. The last
time we checked there were three volumes. I wonder if he has
actually read them, because the provinces certainly have.
This health minister told his caucus members, implied, to allow
themselves to be run roughshod over in the vote the other night,
he would open up this file again. Then he said it is closed. Now
the provinces have opened it up again.
This minister does not have a clue what is going on. Instead of
calling the provinces names, why does he not work with them to—
The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health.
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
now we see what the source of the problem is. The Reform Party
has not read the fourth volume of the report.
My point is that it is a careful and detailed report which
indeed I have read. Mr. Justice Krever went through the history
of this whole matter, examined what happened and when. It was
very clear that from and after early 1986 those responsible for
the system should have acted. They did not. People were harmed.
The principle on which we are offering cash payments is not
because people became sick. We do not do that in this country.
We cannot. We are offering cash payments because there was fault.
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Actually,
Mr. Speaker, maybe he missed the fourth volume because that was
the one with the recommendation that every victim should be
compensated. That seems to be a section of the report the
minister seems to be completely unaware of. The province are not
now. The same government which has accused the provinces of
being cheap is the government that cut health transfers by
billions of dollars, which has offloaded the medicare costs for
hepatitis C victims on to the provinces.
How dare this minister and government take shots at the
provinces which are doing their best to solve this problem. Why
do they not exercise co-operative federalism instead of attacking
their provincial partners?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member may not have read all the volumes of the
Krever report but we have read the Reform platform. That platform
says that if there is a Reform government it would scrap
medicare. It would scrap the Canada Health Act.
If the hon. member wants to point the finger on health care, he
had better point the finger back at his own party and his own
leader and get them to change their position against medicare
before he lectures anybody else.
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr. Speaker, for
the last month the government has been saying it is refusing to
compensate all hepatitis C victims as a matter of principle.
Tommy Douglas used to say that when they tell you it's not the
money, it's the principle, you know it's the money.
Every Canadian can see it is not a matter of principle or
precedent. It is the money.
If the minister will not reopen the deal with the provinces,
will he now negotiate a new supplementary deal for all the rest
of the hepatitis C victims?
1150
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I ask the hon. member what principle was the
Saskatchewan NDP government of Roy Romanow following when it
refused to have a free vote on a motion in the Saskatchewan
legislature and all the members of the NDP in the legislature
voted against changing the existing deal? Was there no lack of
principle there? I do not say that, but he does.
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I
think Canadians deserve a better answer than that. I asked a
legitimate question.
Now we have learned from the auditor general that the government
has been fudging its books and hiding its money away from
hepatitis C victims.
We all know the money is there. Why will the Minister of Health
not show some real leadership and some real political courage and
revisit the issue? If you will not open the old deal,
negotiate—
The Speaker: Address your questions to the Chair, please.
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the hon. member does not express the view of his party in
Saskatchewan. His party, which forms the government in
Saskatchewan, stands with the federal government on the principle
involved.
Tommy Douglas, called by many the father of medicare, would
surely be the first to say that medicare cannot be sustained if
the principle on which we are going to proceed is if a person
becomes ill they not only get treated, they get paid.
It is an important principle. Surely payment should be for
those where there is fault. That is the principle on which we
have proceeded.
* * *
ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, contrary to what the President of the Treasury Board
has said, the privacy commissioner and human resources
development have advised us that information concerning grant
applications to HRDC must remain confidential until both Quebec
and federal ministers approve them.
For example, how can the minister explain that on February 20,
1997, one month prior to the minister for manpower in Quebec's
approving the grant, Raglan Company received a visit from now
convicted criminal, Liberal fundraiser Pierre Corbeil to
improperly solicit funds?
How can the minister allow confidential information to be abused
in such a blatantly criminal manner?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
this matter has been dealt with. It was a member of the
government who indicated these allegations to the RCMP. A full
inquiry has been made. All the facts were in front of the
inquiry. One charge was put forward and the person has pleaded
guilty. That is the end of it.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I can assure the House the file is not closed and
perhaps we need more charges.
The President of the Treasury Board has someone in his office who
has breached public confidence and brought his minister and the
government into disrepute. To suggest otherwise is mendacious.
What steps has the minister taken to assure the Canadian—
The Speaker: I ask the hon. member to withdraw the word
mendacious and to put the question directly.
Mr. Peter MacKay: Mr. Speaker, I withdraw that word.
What steps has the minister taken to assure Canadians that his
office is no longer an information source for Liberal shakedown
artists like Pierre Corbeil?
The Speaker: The way the question is put is quite
borderline. I will permit the hon. minister to answer.
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
if the member has accusations like that, let him try to make them
outside and see what happens to him.
In this case the investigation has been done. The investigation
is complete. All the facts were in front of the RCMP and the
matter is closed.
* * *
HUMAN RIGHTS
Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
would like to turn the attention of the House to the very
important issue of human rights, an issue the Reform Party seldom
if every raises in the House.
I am very disturbed to hear of the reported rise of hate and
bias activity in British Columbia.
Can the secretary of state inform the House what initiatives she
and her department have taken to combat the promotion of hatred
and to prevent its growth in our communities?
Hon. Hedy Fry (Secretary of State (Multiculturalism)(Status
of Women), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, since the government has come
to power we have strengthened, under Bill C-41, hate and bias
crime prevention, which the Reform Party voted against in the
House.
We also happen to know that laws are not enough to stop hate and
bias crime, that we need to work and to educate and to promote a
society in which there is no room for hatred.
As a result my department's multiculturalism program, which
again the Reform Party would cancel, is very important in working
with the schools, with municipalities and with communities to
educate and promote a society of intercultural understanding so
that there is absolutely no—
1155
The Speaker: The hon. member for Crowfoot.
* * *
HEPATITIS C
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, why will
the Prime Minister not ask Judge Krever to confirm the
availability of pre-1986 testing procedures for tainted blood and
to determine the number of hepatitis C victims involved in this
issue? Why will he not do it? Is the real reason because he is
afraid the facts will destroy the excuse for abandoning the
hepatitis C victims? Is that the real reason?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
first of all, there is no question there were tests available
before 1986. Some American states had them, some parts of Europe
as well. The judgment of those who know is that by January 1986
there was enough information that those responsible here in
Canada should have put the tests in place. Before that it was
speculation, it was uncertainty. January 1986 was the turning
point.
On the numbers the member asked about, Mr. Justice Krever
accepted the analysis of Health Canada's director of the
laboratory centre for disease control on the number of victims.
The Speaker: The hon. member for Charlesbourg.
* * *
[Translation]
ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker, we have
learned that throughout the year a number of activities are
planned in celebration of the RCMP's 125th anniversary.
I would like the solicitor general to tell us how much these
activities will cost and where the money is coming from.
Mr. Nick Discepola (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am proud to inform the House
and the member, who refuses to accept this, that businesses
interested in contributing are holding fund-raising activities
throughout Canada, and that thousands of volunteers are raising
money in their community to celebrate an event that is very
important for Canada and for Quebec.
* * *
[English]
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, this
government is responsible in part for the crisis developing on
crown lands in New Brunswick. In the New Brunswick situation what
has this government done in response to the recommendations of
the royal commission on aboriginal peoples that the federal
government work with the provinces and aboriginal communities to
improve aboriginal access to forest resources on crown lands?
[Translation]
Mr. Bernard Patry (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Indian
Affairs and Northern Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I think
what this government has done in this regard should be pointed
out. Including the first nations in certain areas, such as
forestry in New Brunswick, is very important for them.
We are working with New Brunswick and with all provinces across
the country. I am very pleased to point out, with respect to
forestry, that the Government of New Brunswick has established a
round table with New Brunswick first nations.
* * *
[English]
HEPATITIS C
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Health. There are two huge holes
in the minister's excuse not to compensate all hepatitis C
victims.
First, the government was responsible for blood products prior
to 1986 because it refused to allow blood users to bank their own
blood, thus forcing them to use untested blood.
Second, if the government has only so much money, so be it. We
still have an obligation—
The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health.
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the member is entitled to his view but the facts as laid out by
Mr. Justice Krever make it plain in our view that it was in the
beginning of 1986 that there was really a turning point.
That was the stage at which there was enough knowledge about
testing that those responsible for the system should have put the
tests in place. As a result, some 22,000 people were infected
between 1986 and 1990 when the tests were put in place. As a
result governments, provincial and federal, have offered cash
payments.
The member goes beyond that and says all those who were sick
should be paid cash. Tommy Douglas—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Calgary Centre.
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
provincial health ministers are showing some leadership. They are
being sensitive to the needs of the tragic victims of hepatitis C
and are reviewing this issue. But what are they getting from
across the way? Insults and putdowns.
1200
Now is the time for action. We are asking the Prime Minister to
show some real leadership on this issue. Will the Prime Minister
commit to joining with the leadership shown by the provincial
health ministers and come to the table to reopen the hep C file
which this minister has so heartlessly locked?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the hon. member demonstrates that he does not have any idea what
leadership is all about. He thinks leadership is the minister of
health for Ontario or Quebec saying to victims infected before
1986 “Oh yes you should be compensated but we are not going to
do it, let Ottawa do it”. He thinks that is leadership.
Leadership is having the courage to take a tough position on a
difficult issue as a matter of principle and to stand by it. If
he does not realize it, that is exactly what this government is
doing.
The Speaker: That would bring to a close our question
period.
* * *
VACANCY
SHERBROOKE
The Speaker: Order, please. It is my duty to inform the
House that a vacancy has occurred in the representation. Mr.
Charest, member for the riding of Sherbrooke, resigned on May 1,
1998. Pursuant to subsection 25(1)(b) of the Parliament of Canada
Act, I have addressed today my warrant to the Chief Electoral
Officer for the issue of a writ for the election of a member to
fill this vacancy.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[Translation]
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in
both official languages, the government's response to 8
petitions.
* * *
[English]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have the honour to present the 31st report of the Standing
Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding its order of
reference from the House of Commons of Thursday, February 26,
1998 in relation to the main estimates for the fiscal year ending
March 31, 1999 in regard to vote 5 under Parliament, House of
Commons. The committee reports the same.
* * *
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
following questions will be answered today: Questions Nos. 53,
63 and 64.
.[Text]
Mr. Guy St-Julien:
Concerning the acquisition of a parcel of land for the RCMP in
Amos, Quebec, in 1991: (a) when did the RCMP begin taking step
in order to purchase the land; (b) with whom did it deal;
(c) where was the land located in relation to the courthouse
and the detention centre in Amos; (d) how long did the
negotiations go on; (e) what was the surface area of the land
to be used for the RCMP's needs; (f) what was the approximate
purchase price of the land; (g) was this amount included in the
budget and, if so, for what year; and (h) what were the reasons
the file was closed?
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): In so
far as the Ministry of the Solicitor General of Canada is
concerned, the answers are as follows. Concerning the
acquisition of a parcel of land for the Royal Canadian Mounted
Police, in Amos, Quebec, in 1991:
(a) The RCMP began planning to build a detachment in Amos
around September 1989. Steps to purchase land were initiated
after the funds required to purchase land had been approved,
i.e., on October 22, 1990.
(b) The RCMP only dealt with Public Works and Governmnent
Services Canada, PWGSC. PWGSC dealt with the onwer of the land,
Clair Foyer Inc.
(c) The land was located on 3rd Street West which is located
just south of the court house.
(d) The RCMP commissionned PWGSC to start looking for a
suitable piece of land in April 1991. Following this, the
recommendation to purchase the land was made on December 12,
1991. The option to purchase was exercised on January 5, 1993,
and the purchase contract was signed on or around October 21,
1993.
(e) The surface area of the land was 3969 square metres (63 m x 63 m).
(f) The land was purchased for a sum of $77,201.00. If we
take the fee paid to PWGSC into account, the total cost of the land to the
RCMP was $92,000.
(g) Building a new detachment in Amos had been discussed since
1989 and the purchase cost of the land was included in the
1992-1993 budget. The purchase of the Amos site was identified
under Vote 40 in the amount of $50,000 in fiscal years 1992/93
and 1993/94 of the main estimates. The actual expenditure was
$92,000 in fiscal year 1993/94 and was paid out of the
capital construction program.
(h) The project to build a new detachment in Amos was put on
hold on December 14, 1993, and the construction file was closed on
September 1, 1994. Those decisions came as a result of the
following:
—On September 16, 1993, a message from the commissionner
announced that the RCMP had to cut its overall budget by some
$32.7 million during fiscal year 1994/95 and by an additional
$36.9 million over the next three years.
—On February 18, 1994, a letter was sent from the deputy
commissioners, criminal operations and corporate management to
the commanding officers asking them to start reviewing the
operation of their respective divisions for the purpose of
streamlining and restructuring their resources.
—On March 4, 1994, the commanding officer, “C” Division,
Assistant Commissioner Mr. Thivierge, announced the creation of a
divisional streamlining committee.
The divisional streamlining committee first met on April 13, 1994,
and it was then decided to set up subcommittees which would be
each responsible to review some RCMP activities in Quebec. One
such subcommittee analysed the organization and restructuring of
the police function. On August 18, 1994, this subcommittee
submitted a report on the project to streamline “C” Division
RCMP detachments in the Abitibi region. This report contained
seven recommendations, which are summarized as follows: to close
down Amos and Val d'Or detachments and to centralize RCMP
activities in Rouyn-Noranda; to relocate RCMP personnel from Amos
and Val d'Or; not to staff the vacant position of NCO in charge
Amos detachment; to make sure that a 1-800 line be available to
Amos and Val d'Or residents; to check with PWGSC that extra space
be available on the first floor of Rouyn-Noranda detachment; to
sell the land purchased in Amos and to allocate part of the funds
set aside for the construction project in Amos ($874,000 in
1995/96) to fit out and renovate Rouyn-Noranda detachment; to
make sure that the civil authorities and clients departments in
Amos and Val d'Or be sensitized accordingly.
Those recommendations were approved by the division executive
committee as well as by headquarters, Ottawa, with the result that
the construction project in Amos was cancelled on September 1,
1994, as mentionned above.
On September 30, 1994, the commanding officer, “C” Division, and
the officer commanding Montreal subdivision met the member of
parliament for Abitibi at the time, Mr. Bernard Deshaies, to
advise him of the RCMP's intention to amalgamate its detachments
in the Abitibi. The latter approved of the initiative. On
October 14, 1994, Val d'Or mayor, Mr. Tétrault, was met. He
expressed his disapproval but, according to correspondence dated
November 23, 1994, signed by Chief Superintendant G. Zaccardelli,
then acting Commanding Officer Mr. Tétrault understood that we had
to cope with budget restraint and had no choice but to streamline
our services.
On February 7 and 8, 1995, meetings were also held with the
mayors and chiefs of police of Amos and Val d'Or. According to
correspondence dated February 17, 1995, signed by Insp. P. Droz,
acting officer commanding, Montreal subdivision, those
representatives unanimously denounced the choice of
Rouyn-Noranda. However, the mayor of Amos expressed his interest
in an exchange program between the RCMP and Amos police
department.
The foregoing answer to part (h) of the question briefly
summarizes the studies made and steps taken in this file to meet
budget cuts.
Mr. Guy St-Julien:
Regarding the construction of a new building for the Royal
Canadian Mounted Police in Rouyn-Noranda, Quebec: (a) when did
the RCMP begin looking to buy a lot; (b) with whom did the RCMP
deal; (c) what lot size did the RCMP require; (d) what was
the purchase price of the land; (e) did the RCMP request public
bids in selecting land in Rouyn-Noranda; and (f) was the plan to
purchase the land contained in the budget forecasts and, if so,
for what year?
Hon. Andy Scott (Soliciter General of Canada, Lib.):
In so far as the Ministry of the Solicitor General of Canada is
concerned, the answer is as follows.
(a) The Royal Canadian Mounted Police began planning to build a
detachment in Rouyn-Noranda in 1988-1989. Steps to purchase
land were initiated after the funds required to purchase land had
been approved, i.e. June, 1997.
(b) The RCMP dealt with Public works an Government Services,
PWGSC. PWGSC dealt with the owner of the land, which in this
case was the Rouyn-Noranda school board.
(c) The RCMP's initial requirements to PWGSC were for a lot
between 21,000 to 45,000 square feet. The surface area of the
land eventually purchased was 56,822 square feet (294ft x 174ft).
(d) The land was purchased for a sum of $179,557. If we take
the fee paid to PWGSC into account, the total cost of the land to
the RCMP was $205,000.
(e) No; a competitive process was held and a follow-up was put in
place by PWGSC who issued a request for public bids in June 1997.
In July 1997, 6 bids had been selected and following a
comparative analysis, a final site was selected in July 1997.
(f) Building a new detachment in Rouyn-Noranda had been discussed
since 1988 and the purchase cost of the land was reflected in the
“C” Division budget in the 1997/98 RCMP capital construction
program. It was not reflected in the main estimates because the
project was being advanced.
Mr. Guy St-Julien:
Regarding the construction of new buildings for the Royal
Canadian Mounted Police in Amos and Rouyn-Noranda, Quebec; (a)
how much did these buildings cost to build; and (b) were these
costs contained in the budget forecasts and, if so, for what
year?
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): In so far
as the Ministry of the Solicitor General of Canada is concerned,
the answer is as follows:
(a) In the case of Amos detachment, the projected construction
cost was $924,000. In the case of Rouyn-Noranda, the projected
construction cost was $1.1 million.
(b) The construction costs for a new detachment in Amos were
included in the 1995/96 capital construction program budget as
well as the main estimates, at a total cost of $924,000 with
$374,000 to be spent in 1995/96.
* * *
[English]
QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if
Question No. 51 could be made an order for return, this return
would be tabled immediately.
The Deputy Speaker: Is it agreed that
Question No. 51 be made an order for return?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
.[Text]
Mr. John Cummins:
With respect to
aboriginal fishing activities in British Columbia during the
period from March 31, 1992, to November 30, 1997, with the
exception of salmon and herring fisheries: (a) which aboriginal
groups received communal licences or other authorization to fish
excluding commercial fishing licences of the same type issued to
the all-canadian commercial fishing fleet in British Columbia;
(b) what period did each licence include; (c) what species did
each licence include; (d) what quantity of each species could be
harvested under each licence; (e) what quantity of each species
was reported as harvested under each licence; (f) what evidence
does the Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) possess to
conclude that these aboriginal groups have an aboriginal right to
harvest the species for which the licence was issued in the area
in which the fishing activities take place; (g) what evidence of
pre-contact harvesting of the species did the aboriginal groups
provide to convince DFO such that they now ought to be awarded an
aboriginal licence; (h) were any coastal waters of British
Columbia closed either permanently or temporarily to fishing by
other Canadians to accommodate these aboriginal fisheries; (i) if
certain areas were closed, which areas, for what period and to
accommodate which aboriginal group fishing and for which species;
(j) what evidence does DFO possess to conclude that an area
closure was necessary to protect the claimed aboriginal fishing
right; and (k) in the absence of a proven aboriginal right to
fish, on what grounds or on what basis does DFO close waters to
fishing by Canadians other than those belonging to a designated
aboriginal group?
Return tabled.
[English]
Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Speaker, I ask that the remaining
questions be allowed to stand.
The Deputy Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Eric Lowther: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I seek the unanimous consent of the House to revert to
the submission of private members' bills.
1205
The Deputy Speaker: Does the House give its unanimous
consent to revert to the introduction of private members' bills?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
* * *
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-397, an act to amend the Criminal Code
(prostitution).
He said: Mr. Speaker, this bill relates to offences of
communicating for the purposes of prostitution to make it a dual
or hybrid offence. It would allow prosecutors the option to
treat the offence as either a summary or an indictable
conviction.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
MI'KMAQ EDUCATION ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-30, an
act respecting the powers of the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia in
relation to education, be read the second time and referred to a
committee.
The Deputy Speaker: When the House broke for question
period, the hon. member for Lakeland had five minutes and thirty
seconds remaining in his speech. I invite him now to resume the
floor.
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am
not exactly sure where I was in my speech when the interruption
took place. I will begin by saying that with regard to this bill
on education, the Reform Party supports national standards for
education and apprenticeship across the country.
In a broader way, the Reform Party's ultimate goal on aboriginal
matters is that all aboriginal people be full and equal
participants in the Canadian citizenship, indistinguishable in
law and treatment from other Canadians. I want to clarify that
just so there is no doubt about what we are saying.
By saying that the aboriginal people should be full and equal
participants and indistinguishable in law and treatment, we are
not saying that it means they should be indistinguishable in
cultural, language, dress or character. That is not what we are
saying at all. I am clarifying this because I have had people
interpret it that way to me.
I personally very much enjoy the culture of aboriginal people.
Over the last few months I have had ample opportunity to enjoy
that culture, the character and the formal ceremonial dress of
the aboriginal peoples.
I want to end my presentation by asking the government four
questions in response to the bill. I will also make some
comments on the questions.
First, do the grassroots aboriginals on the reserves that are
being covered under this legislation support the change that this
legislation would make?
1210
We already know that only nine of the thirteen reserves that are
covered support the legislation. We have no idea whether the
grassroots people themselves on the nine that have supported it
support this legislation in any way. It is crucial that this be
determined before the bill continues. We know Phil Fontaine
supports the bill. We know that the chiefs and councils from the
nine reserves support the bill, but do the grassroots
aboriginals? I would like an answer to that question.
Second, $24 million will go into this fund to be managed by the
chiefs and councils. It has been said that there will be a
requirement for an independent auditor and some accounting for
that spending.
Specifically my question is what level of accounting will be
required? In what detail? How will the auditor be chosen? Will
the Auditor General of Canada who after all is the final auditor
on federal spending have the final responsibility to check into
the spending of this money? This is critical.
In the aboriginal task force I set up, in the private
presentations and at the public meetings, and in the
presentations made to the questionnaire, the issue which came up
more than any other issue was that of accountability on the part
of chiefs and councils to the grassroots aboriginals. That
question must be answered.
Third, if this deal is being made to help status Indians move
toward self-government, has this government determined in fact
that is what they want? It is an important question.
At the largest of the public meetings I had on this issue, there
were about 75 people. About 70 people were aboriginal and I
would think 40 of them were status Indians. Television cameras
were there. I asked how many would support self-government. Not
one hand went up. One woman stood up and said “What do you mean
by self-government?” I said that that was a very good question.
That question remains unanswered.
What exactly is self-government? Do grassroots aboriginals
support it? Certainly the people we have heard from do not. They
support no new level of control on the part of their governing
bodies until the time that they are assured that there will be
real accountability.
This fourth point is a comment. With regard to the quality of
education, the task force found, and it was expressed very
clearly and strongly, that better education is required. Better
education is the key to two things. It is the key to things
becoming better on the reserves. It is also the key to giving
those people who choose to leave the reserves a fighting chance
when they go. This was expressed very clearly. That is why I need
some assurance that this change will provide a better quality of
education. I really do not feel that I have that assurance right
now.
As we go through the rest of the process, through the amendments
to the bill at committee, at report stage and at third reading, I
ask the government to provide that assurance in a way that really
means something. I also ask that the government answer my
questions.
In closing, there are too many unanswered questions. I
certainly cannot support the bill as it is now, but I will look
at what happens over the rest of the process.
Mr. Lee Morrison (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I do not wish to address the technical details of this
bill. This has been done by other members. My objections to the
legislation are more philosophical than technical.
I object because the bill in my eyes is a reflection of the
government's agenda to create a system of benevolent apartheid,
velvet glove segregation enforced not by truncheons and attack
dogs but with chequebooks and devious dealings.
1215
When the Prime Minister of Canada was the minister of Indian
affairs some 30 years ago, he knew better than to perpetuate the
system we have in this country today. In fact, he issued a white
paper which would have brought the native people holus bolus into
Canadian society. Had he had his way at the time, the majority
of the problems the native communities are now facing in Canada
and by extension the rest of us would not exist.
However, he was not a senior member of the government at that
time. He was beaten down by Prime Minister Trudeau. He was
beaten down by the Indian chiefs. Now apparently he no longer
recognizes the wisdom of his thoughts in those days. The
Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development is off and
running on the same track which this government has followed ever
since it was elected, which is to maintain segregation.
Let us be clear that when we talk about not segregating the
native people, we in the Reform Party are not saying that there
should not be any cultural distinctiveness. Any group in
society, if it has a culture to protect and defend, should be
able to so. What we object to is administrative distinctiveness.
The southern United States used to refer to facilities,
primarily education facilities, being separate but equal. This
was the line of the Bull Connors type of person or, if we want to
get someone a little more civilized, George Wallace. Surely
these are not the models which we in Canada should follow in
developing our social policy.
I would like to speak for a moment about what I think may be one
of the impetuses behind the establishment of a natives only
educational system. I would like to speak about the much
maligned residential schools. One should remember that at the
time when most natives, particularly in northwestern Canada,
lived on the land, these were the only available options for an
academic education for native children.
I used to work with a number of young men who graduated from the
Fort Providence residential school. They had formally completed
what was then referred to as a grade eight education. I would
say their general level of sophistication and general knowledge
was at least equal to that of the average contempory high school
graduate. Had it not been for the residential schools, the
construction of the educational foundation on which to build
native political power would have been delayed by at least 20 or
30 years. Where do members think the leaders came from who were
able to integrate themselves into the system—I use the word
integrate advisedly—and effectively they beat the caucasian
migrants at their own game?
I know some of these residential schools were tough. The one
that my friends went to was apparently tough. When they talked
about it, they did not talk about it in tones that would suggest
they had been devastated by it. They spoke about it in a rather
jocular fashion. In the days they were there all schools were
tough. I attended a school where corporal punishment was the
norm. I somehow survived.
As has been admitted, there were perverts and sadists in the
system, as there are everywhere in society. There were some
terrible events. But that does not condemn the entire system
which by and large was run by dedicated, sensitive people who
really had the best interests of their students at heart.
1220
In any event, with modern communication and modern
transportation there is now no need for residential schools. If
the Mi'kmaq children were to ride school buses to universally
accessible community schools there might be some cultural shock
but certainly much less than would be experienced by native
people in other parts of Canada. Segregated schools are
unfortunately a geographic and demographic necessity in some
parts of the country but certainly not in Nova Scotia.
Anyone who has been watching the events on television lately the
disputes over logging would certainly have been struck by the
down home Nova Scotia accents of some of the disputants. These
people are for all intents and purposes integrated into general
society. This government is proposing what I would call a policy
of dis-integration.
Many people would like to forget the band system in Canada,
which this new educational policy would help to perpetuate, was
the model for South Africa's system of homelands. The designers
of that system actually studied our reserves at a time when our
domestic apartheid was not benign, as it is today. They thought
this was wonderful and went home and did the same.
We still have the apartheid system. We still have the reserves.
Thank heavens they are now a little more benign, but at what
cost? We have created this gigantic bureaucracy both in Ottawa
and in and about the reserves. We have a class of people known
outside of the Indian community as the Indian industry which
comprises not just bureaucrats but the chiefs, the bands, all the
people in power, the people who have their hands on the money and
who will retain their power, their influence, their trips, their
meaningless meetings and their good life as long a we continue to
boost up the band system. It is a classic example of this type
of band boosterism when we give people their very own schools
apart from the rest of society.
Therefore I cannot in conscience support this type of
legislation. It is wrong to divide people. It is wrong to set
up a system where we have a money elite with power bestowed by
the federal government, both economic and social power, who are
in effect the representatives, whether the people being
represented like it or not, of the vast majority of rank and file
natives who have no choice in the matter.
This is the old colonial system. This is the way it was done in
colonial times. They set up a leadership system that would
eagerly collaborate with the senior governments. They gave them
lots of perks and privileges and through that they were able to
maintain permanent control, permanent separation, permanent
economic subjugation of the vast mass of the people allegedly
being represented.
1225
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to address Bill C-30, an act respecting the powers of the
Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia in relation to education.
It has been said by some that the Mi'kmaq should blend in with
the rest of society and become a part of the rest of the Canadian
society. I think interface was a word that was used.
History has recorded very well the results of the attempt to
assimilate and have first nations people blend in through the
residential school system which robbed them of their culture,
history, dignity and heritage. It is time for a change, to face
the reality of today's situation.
This bill will be the first of its kind in transferring
jurisdiction for education to first nations communities. The
royal commission on aboriginal peoples argues strongly that
education in all its dimensions be placed under the control of
aboriginal people.
On February 14, 1997 the chiefs of nine Nova Scotia bands signed
an agreement concerning jurisdiction for education. I emphasize
that the chiefs represent their communities. Bill C-30 would
allow for the transfer to occur.
The chiefs of Eskasoni, Membertou, Chapel Island, Whycocomagh,
Wagmatcook, Pictou Landing, Shubenacadie, Annapolis Valley and
Acadia signed the agreement to transfer jurisdiction for
education on reserve.
This development is not a new idea. Mi'kmaq have been
struggling to preserve and develop their education for a very
long time. Marie Battiste, a Mi'kmaq, stated as cultural
curriculum co-ordinator for the Eskasoni school board in 1992:
In Eskasoni we do have language instruction going on in the
school. We do provide cultural integration into the curriculum
and we do a lot of things toward cultural enhancement, enrichment
and appreciation. And those have many kinds of positive
outcomes.
Throughout the royal commission hearings presenters told the
commission and wrote in their reports that education must in part
develop children and youth:
As aboriginal citizens, linguistically and culturally competent
to assume the responsibilities of their nations. Youth that
emerge from school must be grounded in a strong, positive
aboriginal identity. Consistent with aboriginal traditions,
education must develop the whole of the child, intellectually,
spiritually, emotionally and physically.
I extend my congratulations and those of my caucus colleagues to
all those involved in the negotiations and discussions that have
brought us to this point.
The final agreement, signed less than three months ago, sets out
the powers, duties, functions and structures of the Mi'kmaq
Kina'matnewey, or the Mi'kmaq Education Corporation.
This agreement provides for the corporation to have the ability
to pass laws for primary, elementary and secondary education on
reserve for band members only. However, the Mi'kmaq under this
agreement are obligated to provide equivalent education for
primary, elementary and secondary education to non-members. This
point will need to be discussed in committee because Mi'kmaq must
provide education to non-band members on the reserve under this
agreement but there is no capacity to cover Mi'kmaq not on
reserve.
One of the highlights of the agreement is that an education
standard is transferable between the Mi'kmaq nation and any other
education system in the country. If we are concerned about
addressing the interface and the reality of Canadian society,
this is provided for in the bill.
1230
Bill C-30 will give effect to that final agreement. It is about
time. Since schools have been operated by religious missions for
over 300 years much of the history of aboriginal formal education
has been about so-called educating the spirit, culture and being
out of aboriginal youth. One description given to the royal
commission is that it has been tantamount to beating the Indian
out of the child.
While there are some people who would still advocate that today
by their policies and philosophies under the guise of mixing and
interfacing, it is important that aboriginal people maintain
their heritage, their identity and their culture.
Many schools were explicitly used to break down the transmission
of culture, language, history and spirit from one generation to
the next. Mi'kmaq educator Marie Battiste said:
Cognitive imperialism—is [the attempt to change] a whole way in
which people see things. I think it is important at this point
to tell you a bit about the Mi'kmaq language. It is a beautiful
language. It has many, many ways of expressing things. There are
more ways to express things in Mi'kmaq than there are in English
and the language is built around relationships—
The language is the cement and the bonds. It provides the moral
communion, if you will, of the community. And when we begin to
take that language away from the people, when we tear the people
away from the very rudiments of that language in terms of the
relationships of people to each other, the relationship to their
universe, their relationships to the animals and the plants, we
take away their interconnectedness and we leave them empty, lost
and alone. This is a tremendous loss the people feel—
This bill, thanks to the resolve and creativity of the Mi'kmaq
leaders, sets to change the course of education in a significant
way.
One of the recommendations of the royal commission report calls
for:
—federal, provincial and territorial governments to collaborate
with Aboriginal governments, organizations or educational
authorities, as appropriate, to support the development of
Aboriginally controlled education systems by introducing,
adapting or ensuring the flexible application of legislation to
facilitate self-starting initiatives by Aboriginal nations and
their communities in the field of education.
This bill is a significant first step in that direction. I know
my colleague, the hon. member for Bras d'Or, recently spoke with
Chief Lindsay Marshall from Chapel Island about these issues, as
did I. I am sure the member for Bras d'Or is proud that this
history is being made in her riding.
Just before I conclude my remarks I would like to add a personal
note with respect to the value of education for all peoples.
My father had probably less than grade six formal education and
my mother had about grade nine formal education, but those two
people were very well educated, much more educated perhaps than
people who had gone through university. They were very wise in
their years. They were self-educated and self-taught.
It was due to circumstances beyond their control that they were
unable to complete their education in a formal sense. My
father's father died when he was quite young and he had to take
charge of trying to help support his family. My mother came
from a larger family and had to, because of economic
circumstances, take part in trying to help support her family.
The one thing that was of great significance to me as a young
person growing up in that family setting was the importance that
my mother and father stressed upon education. I can remember my
father saying to me “Son, never let any man or any person put
you down because of the colour of your skin. Get your education.
Pursue education, be proud of who you are and what you are, and
work hard to become educated so you can compete in this world”.
It is because of those words of encouragement and support that I
am here today and I am the person I am.
This was not an attempt to mix or interface with the rest of
society. This was being proud of who you are based upon your own
personal being, your own values and the mores and the values that
came as a part of the family in which I grew up.
Many aboriginal people did not have that opportunity. They were
torn away from their families, from their homes and from that
kind of support.
They did not have that advice because they were taken away from
their mothers and fathers who cared for them in the same way as
my mother and father cared for me.
1235
I can recall my mother and father going to school meetings,
discussing our progress with the teachers of the day and taking
great pride in our report cards. Many aboriginal children did
not have that opportunity because they were torn away from their
culture. They did not have the opportunity to discuss their
progress with their elders and the people within their community
who meant so much to them and who could have provided the kind of
support which I received.
When we talk about moving in the direction of giving aboriginal
people control over their own affairs, I feel it is time this was
done. We know the message that history has given us of
non-aboriginal people trying to take control of aboriginal
people's lives. So many people are afraid to move to something
different and allow people to change.
I would urge very strongly that every member of this House give
serious thought to the principle that is involved in this bill
and not the technicalities about how much money is going to be
involved and how the taxpayer is going to be involved. Those are
incidentals that can be worked out in a different forum. It is
the principle and the heart of the bill which are important. The
bill will enable people to take charge of their own lives. They
will be able to do the kinds of things they should be able to do.
They will once again have pride in their heritage. They will
have control over their own destiny and their own affairs. There
is nothing for people to fear about that concept.
I say to all members that we should think seriously about this
bill and lend it the support it has been given by the aboriginal
communities and by the province of Nova Scotia, which have signed
this agreement with the federal government. We should move
forward so that every aboriginal person may take their rightful
place in Canadian society.
Mr. Lee Morrison (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to compliment the member for St. John's
East on his presentation. To me the member is representative of
the very philosophy which I was trying to espouse in my speech.
In other words, here is a man who has succeeded. He was
encouraged and helped by his family, but he went out and did what
had to be done within general society and has finally arrived
here as a member of the Parliament of Canada.
I would ask the hon. member if he attended a segregated school
when he was on his way up. If he did attend such an institution,
did he think that was a good idea?
Mr. Gordon Earle: Mr. Speaker, I would applaud you for
referring to my riding correctly as Halifax West. It is not St.
John's East, as my hon. colleague has indicated. One of the
problems in our society is that quite often we do not get things
straight.
In response to the question, I would like to comment first upon
my hon. colleague's remarks about the general society. Part of
the problem is that many times we do not recognize that
aboriginal people are a part of the general society.
By that very terminology we are excluding aboriginal people. We
are isolating and doing the very thing that he is trying to
purport he is not doing, which is segregating and separating.
Aboriginal people are a part of the general society. It is just
that they have not been afforded within that context the
opportunities that have been afforded to other people. One of
those opportunities should be to allow people to have their own
culture, heritage and form of education. There is nothing wrong
with that.
There are many systems of education today which are quite
different. There is no one common system for Canadian society.
There are public schools and private schools. There distance
education via computers. There is home schooling. Are people
who teach their children at home less a part of the general
Canadian society than someone who sends their children to the
public system?
Why would someone who is pursuing education within the confines
of the Mi'kmaq community be any different from someone who is
pursuing a home education course?
We must be careful not to apply our standards to other people
and feel that because their standards do not apply or conform
with our standards that they are not a part of the general
society.
1240
In so far as my own schooling goes, I grew up in the north end
of Halifax. The school I attended had people from various races
and that in itself does not necessarily support the member's
contention that I would have done any better or any worse.
What made me do well, and I emphasized this during my speech,
was the support I received within the confines of my home
environment, which can be accomplished by aboriginal people in
the confines of their home environment within the context of
self-education controlled by the Mi'kmaq community. The two do
not conflict.
I fail to see the point the hon. member is getting at. I feel
it is very important that this bill be supported and I stand on
that.
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, I rise
today to speak to Bill C-30, an act respecting the powers of the
Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia in relation to education.
Bill C-30 is a historic piece of legislation that will provide
the Mi'kmaq communities in Nova Scotia with jurisdiction over
education on reserve. This will be the first piece of
legislation transferring jurisdiction over education to first
nations and it will set a precedent across Canada.
Education is a provincial matter, but the federal government is
responsible for programs and services for aboriginals living on
reserve. As such, the federal government, the provincial
government and the Mi'kmaq first nations worked together to bring
about this legislation.
To give a little history and background to this legislation I
would like to point out that the process which led to Bill C-30
began in 1991. At that time the Mi'kmaq first nations in Nova
Scotia, namely a group of band chiefs and concerned citizens,
approached the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development requesting control over education.
This led to the signing of a framework agreement in 1992 between
the federal government and the 13 Mi'kmaq first nations in Nova
Scotia. These first nations are: Acadia, Annapolis Valley, Bear
River, Chapel Island, Eskasoni, Horton, Membertou, Millbrook,
Pictou Landing, Shubenacadie, Wagmatcook and Whycocomagh.
Following the signing of the framework agreement meetings were
held between the federal government and the Nova Scotia chiefs
and culminated with the signing of a political accord in November
1994. This accord began negotiations for the transfer of
jurisdiction over education.
A process of consultation with band councils preceded this event
and consultations were conducted with the Mi'kmaq people and the
general public to apprise them of the current state of
negotiations and the extent of jurisdictional control requested
by the Mi'kmaq first nations.
My point here is that we have had seven years of negotiations
and discussion on this bill already. It has been in the public
eye for seven years. This is not the first time the public has
heard of it. Parliamentarians should not think that all of a
sudden there is some type of conspiracy going on which will
threaten education on native reserves across Canada. This is a
piece of legislation that has been discussed prior to today,
which will hopefully be enacted after this discussion today.
The corporation, known as Mi'kmaq Education, was established to
help with the anticipated transfer of jurisdiction to the Mi'kmaq
communities. Mi'kmaq Education's purpose is to facilitate and
support the Mi'kmaq communities in the setting of objectives to
ensure a program and structure is in place to deal with the
administrative requirements associated with such a transfer.
Mi'kmaq Education established by the 13 Mi'kmaq first nations
hired three Mi'kmaq people to consult with the Mi'kmaq community
members and the general public. These consultations were carried
out in a number of ways, including newsletters and information
booths, in an effort to reach as many people as possible.
As well, the team met with Nova Scotia first nations schools,
Nova Scotia universities and the Nova Scotia School Board
Association. The team visited each community twice, meeting with
both the band council and community and business members. This
led to the negotiation of an agreement in principle which was
signed on May 3, 1996.
The final process at the community level was conducted through
the signing of band council resolutions which demonstrated that
each band council had the support of its community and there was
support for the chief to sign the final agreement on their
behalf.
However, no referendum was conducted to determine community
support and the Millbrook first nation later raised this as a
point of contention.
1245
Nine of the Mi'kmaq first nations signed the final agreement on
February 14, 1997. The four that did not sign, Afton, Bear
River, Horton and Millbrook, did not feel they had informed
consent from their respective communities. However, clause 12 of
the legislation allows these bands to join the process at a later
date if they have the support of the band council to sign the
agreement. The governor in council may then add the name of any
Mi'kmaq first nation in Nova Scotia, thus granting the band
jurisdiction over education.
The reverse may also occur. If the band council authorizes the
withdrawal of the first nation from the agreement, the governor
in council may do so. Both these procedures would be effective
as of April 1 the following year.
It is important to note that the act allows for bands that have
not signed on to this agreement to come into it. It also allows
for bands that have signed on to the agreement and that may later
see it does not suit their purposes to leave the agreement. It
encompasses all Mi'kmaq first nations.
Four of the thirteen first nations in Nova Scotia did not sign
the final agreement for various reasons. Horton first nation
consists of a small number of Mi'kmaq, most of whom live off
reserve. The advantage of the legislation is therefore minimal
for this group. Two of the others, Afton and Bear River, still
have questions regarding the process and are content to wait and
see how the legislation progresses and how successful the program
is. It is expected that they will join at a later time which the
process allows for.
Millbrook was looking for legislation that would establish an
inherent right process. While Bill C-30 is a step in that
direction it does not go that far toward self-government since
this remains a delegated jurisdiction. Chief Lawrence Paul of
the Millbrook first nation expressed concerns over the funding
arrangements supporting this legislation. Chief Paul felt the
funding should be guaranteed for a period greater than five years
agreed on by the federal government.
Twenty-seven Mi'kmaq first nations currently exist in Canada.
They are located in four of the Atlantic provinces and in Quebec.
Thirteen of these bands are in Nova Scotia. They are situated
across the province. They have a long history and a strong
culture. There are approximately 9,000 Mi'kmaq in Nova Scotia,
with 6,200 living on reserve. There are 2,200 Mi'kmaq students
in Nova Scotia with this number split evenly between those living
on and off reserve. Half the on reserve students go to public
schools off reserve. This legislation does not provide the
Mi'kmaq with greater powers or control over schools that are not
on reserve.
Mi'kmaq culture historically relied heavily on story telling as
a means of entertainment and communication. It incorporated
songs and dances into these stories which were a means of passing
on Mi'kmaq history. It is a goal of Mi'kmaq education to
preserve Mi'kmaq culture and traditions. Giving control of
education to Mi'kmaq communities ensures this is possible. The
goal of Mi'kmaq education is to incorporate traditional languages
and cultures back into the school system. This was one of the
reasons the 13 Mi'kmaq first nations requested the federal
government to transfer jurisdiction to their Mi'kmaq communities
in 1991.
This legislation covers elementary and secondary jurisdictions
and the allocation of funding for post-secondary education. Thus
first nations will have control over what is taught to their
students but they will have to ensure the education is equal to
that of other students in Nova Scotia and that it meets
university entrance requirements.
Without this legislation, the Mi'kmaq have no opportunity to
make laws for education on reserve. The Indian Act gives the
federal government this authority. Bill C-30 repeals sections
114 to 140 of the act and delegates jurisdiction to the Mi'kmaq.
This will force the Mi'kmaq to develop structures to properly
manage education and to make laws in line with standards set out
in a constitution. Each community will first have to develop a
constitution before it makes up its laws.
This legislation should increase accountability for the Mi'kmaq
with regard to their education system. Currently band councils
are not accountable to members. Instead they report to the
federal government.
Bill C-30 will increase community involvement, and accountability
will improve through the preparation of financial statements and
the annual report.
1250
There are some detractors to this important piece of legislation
but if we read the legislation thoroughly and carefully, which I
would encourage all hon. members to do, this is a very precedent
setting piece of legislation and increases accountability. It
does not diffuse accountability.
Mi'kmaq communities recognize there will be challenges ahead
such as the construction of schools on reserves, in particular
for those bands outside Cape Breton. Moreover, there are
challenges of finding Mi'kmaq who can teach students their own
language and there are challenges of maintaining standards as
required to meet both school board and university requirements.
Most first nations in Nova Scotia seem to be happy with the
proposed legislation and feel this is a step in the right
direction not only toward self-government but to improving the
education their students receive.
When I spoke with a number of bands affected they stated they
were pleased to be getting control over education. While they
expect some hurdles along the way ultimately this is seen as a
positive move.
This legislation also has its critics within the Mi'kmaq
community but the legislation is designed and written to
encompass those critics and to give them the opportunity to have
their say and also to perhaps make changes in the legislation.
Bill C-30 would be a stepping stone for other first nations
across Canada to begin taking an active role in educating their
own people. Taking an active role would mean that the 53% of
natives living on reserve under age 25 would have some say in
their education process. This is an area of great importance to
the first nations and its students. First nations want to ensure
their traditions and heritage continue while the young people
want and need an education that will prepare them for the future.
First nations in Manitoba and Ontario are looking at the process
but because of different treaties they will have to tailor it to
meet their own needs and circumstances. Furthermore, this is a
move toward self-government, something my party has and continues
to support as a means of improving economic development for
aboriginal peoples.
This is a historic piece of legislation. The Mi'kmaq first
nations in Nova Scotia have requested and are prepared to
administer it and I am pleased to support it at this stage.
I look forward to examining it in greater detail as the process
continues in committee.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[English]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, there
has been consultation among the parties and I think you will find
there is unanimous consent for the following motion. I move:
That the members of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and
Immigration and the necessary staff be authorized to travel to
Toronto on May 7, 1998, in order to visit a Toronto refugee
detention centre.
(Motion agreed to)
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
MI'KMAQ EDUCATION ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-30, an
act respecting the powers of the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia in
relation to education, be read the second time and referred to a
committee.
The Deputy Speaker: Is the House ready for
the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Deputy Speaker: The question is on the motion. Is it
the pleasure to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Deputy Speaker: All those in favour of the motion
will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Deputy Speaker: All those opposed will please say
nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Deputy Speaker: In my opinion the yeas have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Deputy Speaker: Pursuant to Standing Order 45, the
division stands deferred until Monday, May 4, 1998 at the
ordinary hour of daily adjournment.
1255
Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Speaker, I suggest that we further
defer the vote to Tuesday evening at the conclusion of the time
provided for Government Orders.
The Deputy Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Speaker, I also suggest that the
House see the clock as 1.30 p.m. and proceed to Private Members'
Business.
The Deputy Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[English]
CRIMINAL CODE
Ms. Albina Guarnieri (Mississauga East, Lib.) moved that
Bill C-251, an act to amend the Criminal Code and the Corrections
and Conditional Release Act (cumulative sentences), be read the
second time and referred to a committee.
She said: Mr. Speaker, volume discounts for rapists and
murderers, that is the law in Canada today. It is called
concurrent sentencing. It means that serial predators can serve
penalties for multiple crimes at the same time and be out on the
street in only a fraction of the total sentencing.
Concurrent sentencing cheapens life. The lives of individual
victims are erased from the sentencing equation. The suffering,
the pain and the death of the second, third or eleventh victim is
of no consequence to the courts. The minimum penalty always
applies for even the most prolific killers.
For the third time in two years I am presenting a bill which
offers parliament the opportunity to correct one of the justice
system's most jagged obscenities. My bill, now called Bill
C-251, asks that Canada stop giving volume discounts to its
rapists and murderers through concurrent sentencing.
On this third attempt my bill has finally been deemed votable
and for that I extend my heartfelt thanks to the 166 members of
the House from all parties who lent their names in that cause.
Their support will give all members the opportunity to weigh the
arguments and determine whether consecutive sentencing will bring
our justice system a little closer to justice.
The current penalties for murder were imposed over 20 years ago.
Yet I can find no record of any minister or member of Parliament
for that matter who spoke in the House in favour of concurrent
sentencing for Canada's most vicious criminals. As near as I can
tell, it was never discussed and certainly never available for
public debate.
I believe it is time for the people's representatives in
parliament to determine whether serial killers and rapists
deserve special leniency they are currently afforded under the
law and by our courts.
Bill C-251 has as its purpose three simple objectives, to reduce
our inhumanity to the families of victims, to restore some truth
in sentencing and to stop gambling away lives on the chance that
a multiple murderer or serial predator will not attack again. It
seeks to achieve these ends not by increasing the penalty for any
one crime but by ensuring that these penalties have meaning by
being served consecutively.
We do not have concurrent sentencing for parking tickets. If
one parks illegally 10 times, one pays 10 tickets. One does not
get a volume discount.
1300
My bill seeks the same proportionality for the most serious and
vicious crimes committed against Canadians. I believe very
simply that justice is about proportional penalties, about relief
for victims and about protecting the safety of citizens. Clearly,
concurrent sentencing runs counter to each of these principles.
In the five years that I have been working on this issue, I have
seen the human consequences of the current legal framework which
is indifferent to the crimes committed against the second, the
third or the eleventh victim of a serial predator.
I have talked to the families of victims and to victims
themselves, some of whom never had their case prosecuted because
the crown determined that any additional sentence would only be
washed away by concurrent sentencing. Many of these victims have
mustered the courage and drawn purpose from their personal horror
by trying to change the system which treated them with such
callous indifference. They journey here to Ottawa thinking that
MPs, that parliament, will listen and spare future victims.
In the summer of 1996, not just one but two multiple murderers
were free on parole in Mississauga. Concurrent sentencing had
given these repeat killers volume discounts for their crimes.
For John Lyman Kehoe, the second child he murdered did not
affect his sentence so he was free to create yet a third victim.
On July 2, 1996, Kehoe and another paroled multiple murderer
ambushed a real estate agent by the name of Wendy Carroll,
slashed her throat and left her for dead. She survived, but no
thanks to the justice system or the parole board which opened the
cages of her assailants.
Wendy Carroll's life was nearly erased because our sentencing
system erases victims. Had John Kehoe served a second
consecutive term of parole ineligibility for the second child he
murdered, he would not have been free to prey on Wendy Carroll or
anyone else. Wendy Carroll wrote to me, after narrowly surviving
these predators. She wrote:
For some reason our politicians have decided to grant rights to
violent criminals who have taken every right away from their
victims. What are they thinking? How many people must endure
the horrific and extremely painful experience I did in fighting
criminals like these for my life? How many more innocent people
must die before parliament decides to make some changes?
Wendy Carroll cannot understand how two predators who had been
convicted of killing four people between them could have been set
free to attack again.
Albert Einstein once noted that “the world is a dangerous place
to live in, not because of those who do evil, but because of
those who let them do it”.
In this case, the cages were flung open by volume discounts
applied to their sentences which disregarded all but the first
victim and left two predators eligible for parole in half the
time. Of course the National Parole Board proved to be no
barrier between predator and prey.
Bill C-251 does not ask the parole board to be any less
irresponsible. It does not increase the penalty for any crime.
What it asks is that penalties that currently apply to each
murder or rape conviction be served and not be written off as
part of a bulk rate for carnage.
The consecutive sentencing approach proposed by my bill is an
uncomplicated attempt to restore a degree of truth in sentencing.
It recognizes that each sentence applies to a specific crime, an
individual victim, a personal horror. It insists that the price
for murder must not be marked down.
Last summer I had occasion to witness the obscene spectacle of
Clifford Olson's 745 hearing. His remarks reinforced my resolve
to continue to resubmit this bill until the issue was dealt with
by this parliament. Olson read out a letter from his lawyer
advising him to admit to all his murders at once. This way, the
lawyer indicated, Olson could take full advantage of concurrent
sentencing. Olson mocked in the court “They can't do nothing.
They can only give me a concurrent sentence”.
1305
Today we have to answer why Olson and other predators should
only be given a concurrent sentence, and why our justice system
should continue to offer a bulk rate for brutality.
The only persons negatively affected by my bill are future
serial killers and serial rapists. This is not a bill that
affects shoplifters, tax evaders, drug dealers, vandals, or petty
thieves. Concurrent sentencing will still be available to all
but our most vicious criminals.
I ask members of this House to place their compassion where it
is deserved. There is no compassion in inflicting a lifetime of
parole hearings on a family already destroyed by a serial killer.
Just two weeks ago I was visited by a father in my own riding
who begins each and every year by going to a parole hearing to
prevent the murderer of his 11-year old daughter from getting
back on the streets. He owes it to his daughter to keep going
because he knows that without his intervention the parole board
would release her killer on to other victims. This father
suffers from legislation that is focused on the welfare of
killers rather than compassion for victims.
In the debates over the past two years I have heard no
compelling arguments being offered by those who support volume
discounts for serial predators.
In Hansard members will find it argued that we have too
many people in jail and that we have to double bunk a quarter of
all the inmates. I am not kidding. This was raised in this
place just last year as a reason to give serial killers early
release. I would hate to tell Wendy Carroll that she was nearly
killed by two paroled multiple murderers just to increase the
percentage of single cells. That sadly is what has been argued
in this House.
It was also argued that we cannot have consecutive life
sentences. Canadians are gradually catching on to the deception
of life imprisonment. Half of all those convicted of second
degree murder and sentenced to life are released after less than
12 years. Denis Lortie, who machine gunned three people to
death, was released after serving only 11 years, about three and
a half years of lost freedom for each person he murdered. That
is the bargain basement price of life in our courts and under our
parole system.
Sickeningly, Denis Lortie was not an exception. He was
representative of the fact that the only meaningful part of his
sentence is the period of parole ineligibility. The rest of the
sentence is just an option, an option our system allows to
revictimize the parents or the relatives of the victims. It
potentially forces them to join countless other victims in having
to dredge up gruesome memories just to provide impact statements
and petitions to keep the cages closed. But the quality of mercy
is not strained.
It has been argued in this House that concurrent sentences
“counter any need to reduce sentencing dispositions for
individual offences in order to achieve an overall just result”.
It is never a just result to reduce a sentence for rape or
murder just because the victim was not the only victim of the
predator involved.
It is worse yet for the courts to mask the fact that they do
discount sentences in precisely that way time and time again
through concurrent sentencing. There is no more justification
for disguising a volume discount than there is for giving one.
The courts should not be able to placate victims by hiding the
ugly truth behind their decisions. They should have to impose
consecutive sentences when the crimes are as devastating as
murder and sexual assault.
The argument has also been made in this House to suggest that we
give volume discounts for rapists and murderers so that we can be
different from the United States. I quote “I question whether
we want to follow the American example of building more
prisons”. This is the kind of hyperbole and exaggeration that
protects an utterly flawed system with respect to Canada's most
dangerous offenders.
I think the most efficient use of our prisons is to keep those
predators who have killed or have sexually assaulted multiple
victims securely away from future victims.
If space in prison needs to be found, more creative forms of
punishment and rehabilitation should be found for non-violent
offenders guilty of property or commercial offences.
1310
When it comes to serial predators, public safety must be our
first concern. We know that each convicted serial predator is
capable of more horrific crimes. Their actions have identified
them as a permanent threat to society. To ignore that threat is
to negligently endanger innocent lives.
A corrections research and development study from the Department
of the Solicitor General showed that released child molesters who
targeted boys had a 77% recidivism rate. That means for every
100 of these child molesters released, at least 77 more children
are victimized. If a children's toy had that record, it would be
banned.
The National Parole Board considers its record, its annual
slaughter to be a success story. I have heard it argued that the
National Parole Board is fit to decide what predators should be
released, but the fact that the average murderer can get full
parole within two years of eligibility illustrates that our
parole system has lost its balance.
The Olson hearing proved to everyone who witnessed it that
absolutely any predator can appear with a corrections worker who
will attest to his good character and press the parole board for
release. I was amazed when the corrections worker responsible for
Clifford Olson testified in court as an Olson witness and talked
of how he was more concerned with Olson's safety than he was his
own, and how he relied on Olson to keep him informed on current
events.
This Corrections Canada employee was even a member of the prison
program planning board. He told the court that Olson was a
diligent worker who did a good job. Addressing Olson directly,
the same corrections worker said “Most of our interactions were
done in an open room sitting side by side at a table. I never
saw you as a threat to me. My main concern was more for your
safety than for my own”. He went on “I am sure everyone is well
aware that you are considered a jailhouse lawyer. They consulted
you for advice. You gave them advice. You helped them prepare
documents and by the peer group, you were well thought of”.
The corrections worker added later “I always found you very
interesting to work with as a matter of fact, for several
reasons. One is you are well read. Because I live in a rural
part of Saskatchewan, I do not have television facilities and you
had several channels on television. You kept me informed of what
was going on”.
If Clifford Olson can get such an endorsement from Corrections
Canada, every other murderer must deserve the Lady Byng trophy.
That experience was a demonstration of the distorted picture
parole boards must be given on a regular basis. If Clifford
Olson can find champions among corrections personnel, so can any
criminal.
Some time ago I watched a television debate where one of the
commentators suggested that consecutive sentencing for Clifford
Olson, which would amount to genuine life imprisonment, would
amount to nothing more than revenge. This sort of hyperbole is
common in the predator protection industry. Life imprisonment is
not some form of revenge.
If the families of the Olson victims were to hack him to death
with a rusty axe, that would be revenge. Sentencing Olson to
life in prison where he can educate corrections workers on
current events is not revenge but very civilized and measured
justice in response to a series of vicious crimes.
It has always been the tactic of those who earn their living
defending predators to accuse anyone who opposes the early
release of serial predators of being emotional, vengeful and of
giving in to their primitive instincts. They think instead it is
somehow superior to test their pompous theories by releasing
known serial predators on to an unsuspecting public.
By far, the most distasteful argument I have heard in the
defence of the status quo also had the most impact. When I first
brought this bill to the House, one of its chief opponents told
me that he could not support my bill because he did not want to
create a victims industry.
That is right. He did not want public policy to result in a
victim's industry that would continuously challenge established
legal practices. In short, he wanted to preserve the silence of
the lambs.
1315
Instead it is the predator protection industry that is
supported. It is that industry that thrives on the endless parole
process that annually threatens to unleash the chained savagery
of predators, consuming untold tax dollars while dismembering the
future of victims.
Let me summarize the arguments to defend volume discounts for
rapists and murderers. They say we need concurrent sentencing
because we do not want to double bunk predators. We do not want
to reveal the fact that the courts are discounting sentences for
individual crimes. We want to be different from the United
States. We do not want to be emotional. Most importantly, we do
not want to create a victim's industry.
That is all I have heard in the past two years to defend a
system that cheapens life, revictimizes the families of the dead
and recklessly exposes every Canadian to unnecessary risk from
released predators.
I am asking members of this House to reach beyond the grasp of a
legal system that not only fails victims but fails us all. I ask
them to smooth the barbed face of Canadian justice and allow
victims to find justice in our laws. I ask them to defy the
predator protection industry by ending volume discounts for
rapists and murderers.
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I want to
thank my colleague from Mississauga East who has just spoken, not
only for bringing forward this bill for a second time, but for
the words she has given this House to consider as well as all
Canadians who are struggling to understand why we have a justice
system that allows this kind of thing to go on and on.
Surely it is fair and just that we take a look at what our
courts are doing in terms of sentencing individuals like the
Clifford Olsons of this country to terms of imprisonment that are
in fact a bargain price for criminality.
I rise in support of this private member's bill. This is a good
bill. It was a good bill when it was introduced last parliament
as private member's Bill C-321, a bill that may have been law
today if our Liberal colleagues had deemed it votable.
In 1993 the Liberals campaigned on a promise to give
backbenchers more weight in this government through added private
members' bills. For those members new to this House, in the last
parliament the member for Mississauga East accused the Liberal
dominated, four-member committee that determines which private
members' bills will be votable of short-circuiting controversial
bills.
The Mississauga East MP, and I hope she does not mind me quoting
her comments since they are on the record, said:
We supposedly have open government, but we have secret committees
and I'd guarantee that no member of that committee would oppose
the bill openly. They were just encouraged in secret. I'm not
suggesting it's a kangaroo court; it's more like a cockroach
court. You can't see them at work and they run.
In 1996 the hon. member was also quoted in the Hill Times
as saying:
If I had a bill on lawn care, I bet I'd have success in getting
it through the committee—. If I had a bill that offered better
treatment for criminals it would race through the place in a
week, but if you have a bill that wants to side with the victims
or correct an obscene injustice in our system you can expect
resistance and many years of effort and debate.
The member made these comments in reference to her private
member's bill on consecutive sentencing, Bill C-321, which was
rejected by her colleagues.
I commend the member for having the fortitude to once again
bring this most important bill forward.
Harsher comments appeared in the Hill Times in reference
to private members' business. These words, which I would like to
reiterate, were from Debbie Mahaffy, the mother of murder victim
Leslie Mahaffy. Mrs. Mahaffy said:
I am disgusted but not surprised by the heartless comments on the
issue of consecutive sentencing that came out of the flapping
mouths of government Liberal members as reported in your paper on
November 11, “MPs Slag Private Members' Business.”
1320
Mrs. Mahaffy went on to state:
—the Secretary of State for the Status of Women says she was
not familiar with this serious issue for victims' families
because she had not attended caucus that week and as a result had
nothing to say. Could it be that the issue of consecutive
sentencing has been at more caucus meetings than she? Or perhaps
she simply doesn't read newspapers about serious issues of crime.
Another cruel remark dealing with sentencing of serial predators
made by another bright light, Liberal—. chair of the women's
caucus is equally inane. Her diatribe that she might support
consecutive sentencing if [the member from Mississauga East]
brings the issue to the forefront again, is mindless and absurd
to say the least.
Well, if the floor is hers again we will see what that member
has to say.
Mrs. Mahaffy went to state:
The fact that she made this comment after consulting with [the]
Justice Minister and the Liberal [member from Mississauga East]
adds to the obscenity. With this calibre of consultants, I
suggest it is time for [the member from Etobicoke—Lakeshore] to
seek better advisors.
I have omitted a small portion of Mrs. Mahaffy's letter to the
Hill Times, but I would like to read her last paragraph:
Shame on all of you for adding to our pain and for your lack of
humanity, and the lack of wisdom to make a difference.
When we talk about our justice system and those in this House
who are responsible for amending our laws and bringing forth new
initiatives I cannot help but be reminded of an article in
yesterday's newspaper by Jeffrey Simpson. It is headed “A
Justice Minister with a Lower Profile than a Groundhog in
Winter”. That is not very flattering, but I think it strikes
very close to the truth. The reason for that is because our
justice minister has really done very little, if anything, during
almost a year of holding one of the strongest portfolios in
government. It is certainly one of the two portfolios that
has the mandate and the responsibility to look into things like
ending concurrent sentencing and moving toward more just and
applicable pieces of legislation.
I would also like to read from an article which appeared on
November 27, 1996 in a B.C. newspaper regarding the standing
committee on justice's national forum on youth justice, which
occurred at the end of the 10 year review of the Young Offenders
Act. For the record, I could not support the expenditure of
$60,000 to host this meeting. That was what the estimate was. I
do not know what the actual cost was, but that is what we were
asked to support. I could not do that because I felt we would be
going over old ground by hearing from a number of witnesses who
had already appeared before our committee. My opposition to this
wasteful use of taxpayers' money caused me to endure a bit of a
berating from the chair of that committee, which is hard for me
to forget, although I have forgiven that member for that type of
an attitude toward me because of the feelings the member
experienced at the time. Nevertheless, it did happen. That
displays an attitude that is all too prevalent in those who are
responsible for the direction that our justice system has been
taking, certainly during the last five years since I have been a
member of this House.
I quote from that article:
Ottawa was a bust for [the member for Surrey North]. [The member
for Surrey North], whose teenage son Jesse was stabbed to death
by another teen four years ago, was invited to speak before the
federal standing committee of justice affairs last weekend in
Canada's capital city. But the Guildford dad, who founded the
victims' rights group Crime, Responsibility and Youth (CRY) after
his son was murdered, says the trip was a waste of time. “I
spoke maybe five minutes total,” he said. “It was a joke. I
shouldn't have even bothered going.” The meeting was poorly
chaired, he charged.
Of 33 participants, [the member for Surrey North] said, only
himself and a representative of Canadians Against Violence
Everywhere Advocating its Termination (CAVEAT), another victims'
rights group, spoke from the victims' perspective. The other
participations were lawyers, criminologists and members of groups
like the John Howard Society, a group advocating convicts'
rights. Everything else was geared to the rights of offenders
[the member for Surrey North] said. “I was the only person in
the whole damn bunch who took the victims' side to anything,” he
said, “and someone from CAVEAT.” He said he appreciated being
asked to attend, but added, “it was so obviously one-sided.”
1325
It is certainly not the first time a witness or an observer has
called the committee a bust or a sham. The mayor of Cornwall
walked out on the committee, called it a complete waste of time
and accused the committee of being predisposed. I was and remain
a member of that committee and I cannot disagree with the
observations of the member for Surrey North and the mayor of
Cornwall.
By December 1996, three years after the 1993 election, 16
private members' bills were introduced to reform Canada's
criminal justice system. None have become law. It is unfortunate
that despite the hard work and effort of many parliamentarians
from all sides of the House, a similar pattern is emerging in
this parliament.
Included in those bills that died was one introduced by the
member for York—South Weston, Bill C-234. This very necessary
bill did not become law. It did not even come back to the floor
of the House of Commons because the Liberal members of the
justice standing committee killed it. They did this despite the
fact that Bill C-234 had the overwhelming support of the Canadian
Police Association and Victims of Violence. Bill C-234 most
certainly had the support of the Reform Party because this
private members' bill would have repealed section 745 of the
Criminal Code. It would have quashed the killer's glimmer of
hope for being released before serving his full sentence.
I commend my colleague from Mississauga East for her courage in
standing in a caucus where there is not much support for what
many people across this country are asking for. I assure her
that she has my support on this bill and the support of my
caucus.
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to address Bill C-251, an act to amend the Criminal Code
and the Corrections and Conditional Release Act. This enactment
provides for the imposition of consecutive sentences where a
person commits sexual assault and another offence arising out of
the same events or where the person is already serving another
sentence at the time.
The enactment also provides that a person sentenced to life
imprisonment for first or second degree murder is not eligible
for parole until the person has served, in addition to the
portion of the sentence that the person must serve for murder,
one-third or a maximum of seven years of any other sentence
imposed on the person in respect of an offence arising out of the
same events or that the person is already serving. The mandatory
portion of each life sentence imposed on a person who is
convicted of a second murder must be served consecutively before
the person is eligible for parole.
There are two main parts to this private members' bill. The
first section deals with consecutive sentencing for those who
commit sexual assault and another offence arising out of the same
events, for example, sexual assault and a break and enter, or
where the person is already serving time for another sentence at
the time.
Sentencing in Canada is a relatively complex matter. Sentencing
principles are set out in section 718.1 and section 718.2 of the
Criminal Code. Degrees of punishment are set out in section
718.3.
There are two types of sentencing in penitentiary: consecutive
and concurrent. Concurrent is when the time runs together. For
example, in a case of eight months for break and enter and four
months for theft, the offender would serve eight months.
Consecutive is when the sentences are cumulative. In this case
the offender would have the two sentences added together for a
total of 12 months.
Judges can currently impose consecutive sentences under section
718.03 of the Criminal Code, but not for life imprisonment.
Sentencing is complicated by the principle of totality which says
that the total sentence, that is combined sentences, is “just
and appropriate” and will rarely exceed the harshest sentence
for the most serious crime of all those being considered at the
time of sentencing.
This is a common law principle and is well entrenched in law.
Consequently with regard to the first section of this bill, Bill
C-251 provisions already exist which address consecutive
sentencing.
1330
The second aspect of the bill provides for a consecutive portion
of another sentence to be served upon an offender who is serving
time for murder. Thus someone who is serving 25 years for murder
and who is also found guilty of sexual assault and sentenced to
nine years would have three years added to any parole eligibility
requirements.
This section of the bill recognizes the nature and severity of
certain crimes and imposes additional penalties to serious
offenders and deals with public safety concerns. In that area I
would support this part of the bill.
Having said that, while I could support the second part of the
bill and appreciate the intent of the first part, the first
section of the bill complicates existing law and is contrary to
the principles in common law. Consequently we find we cannot
support the bill in its present form.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I am also very pleased to speak on Bill C-251, an
act to amend the Criminal Code and the Corrections and
Conditional Release Act. I would suggest at the outset that this
is a very timely and important bill.
Let me start my remarks with a quotation from the mover of this
bill, the hon. member of Mississauga East, from a speech which
she gave in the previous parliament. The bill was then labelled
Bill C-321, the ancestor to the present bill:
Since I reintroduced this bill I have sadly been visited by too
many victims of crime who have now come to realize that they are
also victims of parliament. Some had lost children, some had lost
parents, some had lost spouses, but all had lost faith in the
courts, lost faith in parole boards and, most of all, lost faith
in parliament.
Very sad words. I must say again at the outset that I commend
the hon. member for Mississauga East for her dogged determination
and pursuit of this very important principle and for bringing
this bill forward again.
How true her statements ring when we look at what has happened
this week in the House. We and the Canadian population have seen
that the Government of Canada has displayed some callousness
toward victims. Although I listened very carefully to her words,
I must say that the quality of mercy is strained by what has
happened to the victims of hepatitis C.
I do want to say with that on the record that I am glad to see
there is at least one member who does care for victims. I know
she has been working very hard over the past number of years to
bring this matter forward in the form of a votable motion.
She stated in her remarks that there were three basic principles
behind this bill: inhumanity and to avoid it, improving humanity
toward victims, and certainly to protect us against those who
offend. I congratulate her on her work. I am happy to see that
members in this House and some members of her own government have
decided to make this a votable item.
The member for Mississauga East has moved this important bill
and has given a very eloquent speech before this House. This is
the kind of intelligent, impartial and passionate speech we see
far too seldom. Her speech clearly described how difficult it is
for victims of crime in this country to face the justice system
and how far too easily it is for them to lose faith.
Today parliamentarians have an opportunity to speak on this
important piece of legislation to help improve our justice
system, to help bring to Canadians confidence in the system and
more important to improve the protection of society from violent
offenders. These are very collective and substantive suggestions
the hon. member has made. Again I state on the record that I
wholeheartedly and unequivocally support her motives.
Bill C-251 provides for truth in sentencing, something we must
see. It is a very brief, straightforward and easy to understand
amendment to the Criminal Code, something which we and all
members of this House should encourage.
When it comes to the issue of sexual assault and section 271 of
the Criminal Code there is a substantial need for this amendment.
There is a need that sentences which are imposed by judges be
served consecutively so that the punishment reflects the gravity
of the offence.
At the present time there is the ability for these types of
sentences to be served concurrently. That is, if there is more
than one offence or the offence of a sexual assault occurs at the
same time as other offences such as break and enter, theft or
simple assault, the sentences are served at the same time.
It is tantamount to having loans from three different
institutions and only having to pay back one loan, to put it in
simple terms.
1335
The principles of sentencing are set out in the Criminal Code of
Canada. Section 718 of the code sets out what legislators in the
past have tried to do and tried to reflect in the sentencing
principles. Section 718.1 states: “A sentence must be
proportionate to the gravity of the offence and the degree of
responsibility of the offender”. It goes further in setting out
what these principles are and it speaks of the need for
reformation and rehabilitation to be balanced against the more
important, I would suggest, principle and that is the protection
of society.
The Criminal Code states: “Where consecutive sentences are
imposed, the combined sentence should not be unduly long or
harsh”. Try to explain that to victims. Try to explain that to
those who have lost their loved ones or had their loved ones
attacked, beaten or killed. It is hard to impose this very
strict and I would suggest heartless, callous principle and make
them understand.
We have to revisit the principles of sentencing. The suggestion
by the hon. member is a good one.
Bill C-251 would expand the ability of judges to impose a fair
sentence. No one should be getting a free ride in our justice
system. Sadly, that is precisely what happens on occasion. We
permit sexual offenders and other offenders who commit two,
three, four or more crimes to serve one sentence at one time. It
is absolutely absurd.
The name Clifford Olson has been mentioned in this Chamber far
too often. I shudder to even mention that man's name. This is an
individual who killed 11 children and is serving one life
sentence. He should be serving 11 life sentences. The
manipulative and self-serving evidence that he gave at his
section 745 hearing is an absolute disgrace. It is a black eye
for the entire country and our justice system in particular.
There is no meaningful sentence that would ever reflect the
heinous nature of the crimes that waste product committed.
One cannot help but be alarmist and reactionary when one hears
the individual circumstances that surround some of these crimes,
but one has to be thoughtful and thorough when approaching the
subject of sentencing. Common sense has to apply at some level.
For people like Olson and Bernardo, to suggest that 15 years to
life is an adequate response is absolutely ludicrous.
This is why I hope that the member for Mississauga East will
also support members of parliament on the opposition side when we
continue to call for the abolition of section 745 of the Criminal
Code, the so-called faint hope clause. I am sure that based on
the time she spent watching this debacle in British Columbia she
will be of a similar mind.
The principles of her bill are completely undermined and useless
as long as we continue to have section 745 in the Criminal Code.
It is my belief that each of the innocent lives that were taken
deserve at least the validation of having a consecutive sentence
to represent their lives.
Conditional sentences are another subject, but that is another
matter that has to be revisited. I would suggest that serious
sexual assaults and violence should never be considered by judges
for the imposition of conditional sentences.
It is also my belief that a person who commits multiple crimes
should be given an appropriate sentence to reflect each and every
one of those offences if committed at a different time with
different circumstances.
Bill C-251 addresses that. It does so in a substantial and
common sense fashion. Therefore I support the member and I
support her bill. I support truth in sentencing. I support a
justice system that does not marginalize by bargaining away the
ability of society to protect itself and reflect its revulsion of
violent crimes.
The second clause of Bill C-251 also amends section 120 of the
Corrections and Conditional Release Act. It requires offenders
sentenced for first and second degree murders to serve their full
parole ineligibility period on the sentence, plus one-third of a
maximum of seven years, whichever is less. Again it is an
innovative way to ensure that there is some truth in sentencing.
1340
There are times and factual circumstances when the judge should
impose a sentence that would really reflect what the crime
represents. If a judge says 25 years, it should be 25 years and
that should be the end of it. That would give the offender and
society the belief in their justice system.
When a person is sentenced to a term of imprisonment for life
for first or second degree murder, and after being sentenced to a
term of imprisonment for life in respect of another crime, why
should that sentence not be served consecutively? It is a very
good motion on the part of the hon. member.
Simply put, cumulative sentences play a very important role when
it comes to parole eligibility. With a double murderer, Bill
C-251, would be the best way to address this. The victim's
family of the second murder, are left with the fact that their
victim is not being addressed by the justice system when the
sentence has to be served concurrently.
A person capable of serious violence and sexual aggression is a
risk. It has to be a priority. It has to be something that we
are prepared to address. This bill is worthy of our support.
Bill C-251 is a step toward improving our justice system overall
and our sentencing principles. We must do more. We must
continue to work toward this important goal.
In conclusion, I and the Conservative Party support this bill
wholeheartedly and congratulate the member for Mississauga East.
[Translation]
Mr. Nick Discepola (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to
speak in this debate on Bill C-251.
First of all, I would like to congratulate the hon. member for
Mississauga East on her tenacity and dedication to an issue that
concerns us all.
It would seem that, for the rest of this session, the criminal
justice system will be a major focus in this House. The Minister
of Justice is continuing consultations on the subject and
proposing changes on various criminal justice issues, including
legislation regarding young offenders, the difficult situation
we are all aware of concerning victims and recommendations made
as a result of recent investigations.
As for the solicitor general, he is presiding over the review of
legislation including the Criminal Records Act and the Transfer
of Offenders Act. He is also involved in reviewing the
Corrections and Conditional Release Act. This review is a major
initiative of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human
Rights.
Essentially, the government is open to suggestions to bring
about positive change and is fulfilling its responsibility,
which is to provide Canadians with a more efficient criminal
justice system.
I would certainly not give the impression that our legislation,
even the most comprehensive and recent, is perfect. Lawmakers
have the duty to keep an eye out for changes that may require a
reform of existing legislation and for legislative
inconsistencies and anomalies that may create inequalities.
Private members' bills are a tool to put forward corrective
measures, which are sometimes adopted. I firmly believe in the
value of debating issues raised in private members' bills.
Nevertheless, I am concerned that Bill C-251, an act to amend the
Criminal Code and the Corrections and Conditional Release Act,
may take away flexibility and discretionary power from our
courts and add to the already heavy burden of correctional
bodies, when it comes to administering sentences.
The proposed changes would introduce new elements to the
legislation adopted by parliament not so long ago. They would
amend existing legislation in ways not foreseen by those who
drafted it, who took part in discussions, and who made the
amendments that give them their present form. If adopted, these
amendments could well lead to serious challenges under our
charter of rights and freedoms.
The amendments proposed by the hon. member for Mississauga East
seem to be the solution that has always been called for by any
groups calling for heavier penalties for law-breakers.
1345
As other hon. members have said, Bill C-251, in its present form,
and the prior forms of these proposed amendments are aimed at
responding to the demands of a group which is attempting to
convince us that longer sentences and later releases will
enhance public safety. This admirable group is made up of
police officers and victims, that is well-intentioned people who
deserve our respect.
I would, however, like to respectfully submit that law
enforcement agencies are sworn to enforce the law, while
lawmakers are the ones responsible for drafting it.
Moreover, it is an underlying principle of our justice system
that the state guarantees the objectivity of the criminal
justice system by prescribing penalties, and thus eliminating
any element of personal vengeance.
The impressive list of legislative measures drafted by previous
hard-line governments, as well as the improvements introduced in
recent years, have had an impact on a large number of criminal
justice issues.
In some cases, the new legislative provisions were the direct
consequence of suggestions from police and victim assistance
organizations. They were consulted in all cases. Most of the
time, the measures that were adopted lengthened sentences and
made the system more stringent.
[English]
I know that sometimes unusual and tragic events put considerable
pressure on hon. members in the House to find solutions to
problems in the area of criminal justice. The public reaction to
recent deplorable and senseless crimes is also quite
understandable. The efforts of individual Canadians and groups
to exert positive influence are for the most part very
commendable.
The proposed amendments, however, invoke punitive measures that
far exceed the restrictions now set out in the Criminal Code and
Corrections and Conditional Release Act as well as threaten
freedoms defended by the charter, as I mentioned.
Nevertheless, Bill C-251 is before us today and as described by
its subtitle proposes cumulative sentences that could in some
cases double or triple current levels of sentences.
Although I do not doubt the motives or intentions of the hon.
member for Mississauga East, I must point out that support for
the bill will come from those who believe that life should mean
life.
There is a certain element here that has been addressed in past
sessions when similar attempts were made to achieve the same
objectives. The thrust of these proposals applies to those who
might otherwise anticipate earlier eligibility to be considered
for conditional release under current rules of sentence
calculation.
I will attempt therefore to provide some details of how the
government has come to address corrections and conditional
release issues. In so doing I submit that it will become clear
to my hon. colleagues that the proposals now before us do not at
this time reflect the best interests of the Canadian public.
We are living in times of tremendous change, as hon. colleagues
are well aware. Change is experienced no less by the criminal
justice system than by any other institution in our society.
For the criminal justice system the past decade has been a
period of difficult and sometimes painful questioning. Is our
justice system working? Is it protecting our most vulnerable
citizens? Can we assure Canadians that their safety is of
paramount concern to the Government of Canada? These are all
valid questions.
[Translation]
The 1988 report of the Standing Committee on Justice and the
Solicitor General was entitled: “Taking Responsibility”. In that
report, the committee recognized the need to make certain
improvements to sentencing, conditional release and the
correctional system, and included detailed recommendations to
that effect.
The work of that committee is greatly appreciated, and its
members know that their concerns were instrumental in the
reforms proposed by our government. These reforms seek to
improve public security and to restore public confidence in the
system.
In the second half of the 1980s, the country had been shaken by
a series of unusual and tragic events that made our criminal
justice system look rather bad.
Moreover, because of an increase in the crime rate, the public
was urging the government to change the system and to adopt
harsher measures that would reflect the new limits of tolerance
for certain types of crimes. The 1988 report, along with other
basic reviews of the correctional system, led to the adoption,
in 1992, of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act.
1350
This radical reform of legislative measures pertaining to
correctional matters and parole responded to public pressure by
making the system more open, more just and more accessible and
recognized the need for significant change to bring it into line
with public opinion and values. The current government
considered it appropriate on two occasions to change the law,
after consulting with interested Canadians and with its criminal
justice system partners.
Throughout the process, the first priority was to re-establish
public confidence. We must continue to respond to public fears
about crime and concerns about criminal justice.
We must, however, take account of the change in the landscape.
The number of violent crimes has consistently and considerably
dropped in recent years.
For us to properly respond to public concerns, we must work to
improve understanding of the nature of crimes currently
committed and of our criminal justice system, which has changed
appreciably in recent times.
As I mentioned, the government now intends to keep the criminal
justice flexible in part through a review of the Corrections and
Conditional Release Act.
[English]
The Solicitor General of Canada will be addressing the House
justice committee on Monday in introducing its review of the
CCRA. I encourage the hon. member to put forth her
recommendations under that exhaustive review. I will work with
her on that committee.
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I certainly
want to add my congratulations and thanks to the hon. member for
Mississauga East for her tenacity and courage in continuing this
fight and bringing this important debate to the House.
I am also very pleased to see that after the third time this
private member's bill has come this far and is going to be
votable. We will find out when the vote is held who actually
speaks for Canadians and who speaks for victims.
I am actually really restraining myself in my reaction to the
speech we just heard. I cannot use the words because they are
unparliamentary. It is really deplorable that the frontbench of
this government has so little regard for victims in this country.
While I was sitting here listening I thought of the word empathy
which means feeling with someone who is hurting. It is different
from sympathy. Empathy is feeling with.
Recently I went to Saskatchewan to visit my parents. We drove
down a road that we drive every time we come from our home in
Alberta down into Swift Current, Saskatchewan where my parents
live. When we make a certain corner I always think of a person
who died at that corner. That person was Eugene Martens.
He was a rancher who gave part of his farmland in order to put
up a camp for children and young people. I attended that camp as
a youth and later on as a counsellor. It was one of those
situations where a man had a significant influence in my life
because of his generosity. He was killed on the corner of
highway 4 north of Swift Current because, I believe, of icy
roads. It was not because of drunken driving. It was an
accident.
Even though this man was not a member of my family, every time I
go by that place I think of that person and I say a little prayer
of gratitude for his life and for what he did. That helps me to
empathize with a person whose family member, a loved one, has had
their life taken from them by someone else's negligence or by
someone else's misguided and wilful act.
When I think of their pain and how they must hurt it absolutely
drives me to distraction to think that there is a government in
Ottawa that cannot empathize with those victims.
I cannot understand how that can be. All one has to do is try to
put oneself into the same situation.
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We are dealing with the question of changing the rules for
sentencing. How should a criminal who was charged and convicted
of committing a serious crime be sentenced?
The present system is that individuals who are charged with more
than one crime at a time often get concurrent sentences. That is
incredible. One can take a life, or two, three, four or more and
at a certain time their sentence starts and they are able to
serve all sentences at the same time whether they have killed one
person, two, three or eleven, a significant number in this
country. It is unconscionable that we allow that to happen.
Our media paid quite a bit of attention to the application of
Clifford Olson for eligibility for early parole last summer. I
was interviewed by a local person and I said really he should
have had 275 years. When we think of each of those victims, if
life sentence means 25 years in prison, ll times 25 is 275. Then
I said if he behaves, we will let him off after 250. That is not
to make light of it in any way. Here are families of victims with
an inescapable sense that some of the lives taken do not matter.
There is no penalty for them at all.
I am indeed one of those who believe that a life sentence should
mean life. It should at least mean 25 years.
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: I hesitate to interrupt the hon. member, but
the time provided for the consideration of Private Members'
Business has now expired and the order is dropped to the bottom
of the order of precedence on the order paper.
[English]
The next time the matter is under consideration, the hon. member
will have four minutes remaining in his time.
It being 1.56 p.m., this House stands adjourned until Monday
next at 11 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 1.55 p.m.)