36th Parliament, 1st Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 112
CONTENTS
Monday, June 1, 1998
| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
1105
| CHARITABLE CONTRIBUTIONS
|
| Mr. Chuck Strahl |
| Motion
|
1110
1115
1120
1125
| Mr. Tony Valeri |
1130
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
1135
1140
| Mr. Scott Brison |
1145
| Mr. Dick Proctor |
1150
| Mr. Rey D. Pagtakhan |
1155
1200
| Mr. Jay Hill |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| SUPPLY
|
| ALLOTTED DAY-Unemployment insurance
|
| Mr. Paul Crête |
| Motion
|
1205
1210
1215
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
1220
1225
1230
| Mrs. Maud Debien |
1235
| Mr. Wayne Easter |
1240
1245
| Mr. Paul Crête |
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
1250
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
1255
1300
| Mr. Robert D. Nault |
| Mr. Wayne Easter |
1305
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
1310
1315
| Mr. Paul Crête |
1320
| Mr. Jean Dubé |
1325
1330
| Mr. Odina Desrochers |
1335
1340
| Mr. Robert D. Nault |
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
1345
| Mr. Yvan Loubier |
1350
1355
| Mr. Wayne Easter |
| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| FORESTRY
|
| Mr. Stan Dromisky |
1400
| FRASER VALLEY CONSTITUENTS
|
| Mr. Chuck Strahl |
| SYDENHAM RIVER CLEAN-UP
|
| Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur |
| TEACHING EXCELLENCE AWARD
|
| Mrs. Claudette Bradshaw |
| EMPLOYMENT
|
| Ms. Carolyn Bennett |
| REFORM PARTY OF CANADA
|
| Mr. Derrek Konrad |
1405
| ACCESS AWARENESS WEEK
|
| Ms. Beth Phinney |
| WINDSOR—ST. CLAIR CONSTITUENCY
|
| Ms. Shaughnessy Cohen |
| REFORM PARTY OF CANADA
|
| Ms. Val Meredith |
| REFORM PARTY OF CANADA
|
| Mr. Steve Mahoney |
| CANADIAN ARMED FORCES
|
| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
1410
| VETERANS AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
| REFORM PARTY
|
| Mr. Benoît Serré |
| ENVIRONMENT
|
| Mr. John Herron |
| SENIORS BENEFIT
|
| Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire |
| CALGARY DECLARATION
|
| Mr. Ted McWhinney |
1415
| REFORM PARTY CONVENTION
|
| Mr. Keith Martin |
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
| GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS
|
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| Mr. Preston Manning |
1420
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Hon. Alfonso Gagliano |
| ALLIANCE QUEBEC
|
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
1425
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| HEPATITIS C
|
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
1430
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| FOREIGN AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Rick Borotsik |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Rick Borotsik |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS
|
| Mr. Art Hanger |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| Mr. Art Hanger |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
1435
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
| Mr. Paul Crête |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| Mr. Paul Crête |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| HEPATITIS C
|
| Mr. Maurice Vellacott |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| Mr. Maurice Vellacott |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
1440
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| FOREIGN AFFAIRS
|
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Mr. Ted McWhinney |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Mr. Ted McWhinney |
| MILLENNIUM SCHOLARSHIPS
|
| Mr. Pierre Brien |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| CHILD LABOUR
|
| Mr. Jacques Saada |
1445
| Mr. Ted McWhinney |
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
1450
| NUCLEAR TESTING
|
| Mr. Scott Brison |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Scott Brison |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
|
| Ms. Sophia Leung |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
| Mr. Dick Harris |
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
1455
| SPIRIT OF COLUMBUS PLATFORM
|
| Mr. Antoine Dubé |
| Hon. Sergio Marchi |
| PUBLIC SERVICE
|
| Ms. Bev Desjarlais |
| Hon. Marcel Massé |
| THE ENVIRONMENT
|
| Mr. John Herron |
| Hon. Christine Stewart |
| THE ECONOMY
|
| Ms. Susan Whelan |
| Hon. Ronald J. Duhamel |
1500
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Mike Scott |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
| COMMUNICATIONS SECURITY ESTABLISHMENT
|
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| INTERPARLIAMENTARY DELEGATION
|
| Mr. Yvon Charbonneau |
| HOUSE COMMITTEES
|
| Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development
|
| Mr. Guy St-Julien |
1505
| INCOME TAX ACT
|
| Bill C-412. Introduction and first reading
|
| Hon. Charles Caccia |
| PETITIONS
|
| Public Safety Officers
|
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
| Taxation
|
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
| Highways
|
| Mr. Lee Morrison |
| Rail Lines
|
| Mr. Lee Morrison |
1510
| Abortions
|
| Mr. Werner Schmidt |
| CRTC
|
| Mr. Ken Epp |
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| Mr. Jean Dubé |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| SUPPLY
|
| Allotted day—Unemployment Insurance
|
| Motion
|
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
1515
1520
1525
| Mr. Jay Hill |
| Mr. Yvan Bernier |
1530
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
1535
1540
| Mr. Claude Bachand |
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
1545
| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
1550
1555
| Mr. Claude Bachand |
1600
| Mr. Yvan Bernier |
1605
1610
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
1615
| Mr. Gar Knutson |
1620
1625
| Mr. Charlie Penson |
1630
| Mr. Steve Mahoney |
1635
1640
| Mr. Claude Bachand |
1645
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
| Mr. Rob Anders |
1650
1655
1700
1705
| Mr. Mac Harb |
1710
| Mr. Ken Epp |
1715
| Mr. Denis Coderre |
1720
1725
| Mr. Paul Crête |
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
1730
| Mr. Bryon Wilfert |
1735
1740
| Mr. Yvan Bernier |
| Mr. Grant McNally |
1745
| Mr. Claude Bachand |
1750
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
1755
| Mr. Ghislain Lebel |
1800
| Mrs. Francine Lalonde |
1805
| Mr. Yvan Bernier |
1810
| Mr. Jerry Pickard |
1815
1820
1825
1830
1850
| PARKS CANADA ACT
|
| Bill C-29. Report stage
|
1900
(Division 182)
| Motion No. 1 negatived
|
(Division 183)
| Motion No. 2 agreed to
|
1905
(Division 184)
| Motion No. 6 negatived
|
(Division 185)
| Motion No. 7 negatived
|
(Division 186)
| Motion No. 8 agreed to
|
| Motion for concurrence
|
| Hon. Sheila Copps |
1910
(Division 187)
| Motion agreed to
|
| NUNAVUT ACT
|
| Bill C-39. Third reading
|
1915
| Amendment negatived
|
| ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
|
| Hepatitis C
|
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
1920
| Mr. Joseph Volpe |
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 112
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Monday, June 1, 1998
The House met at 11 a.m.
Prayers
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
1105
[English]
CHARITABLE CONTRIBUTIONS
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.) moved:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should bring
in legislation making the tax deduction for contributions to
charitable organizations no less than the tax deduction for
contributions to political parties.
He said: Madam Speaker, on the weekend as I was sitting on the
couch doing as little as possible trying to recover from my cold,
for a few moments I watched a telethon on television. It was the
Children's Miracle Network telethon. It was raising money across
North America for a whole series of charitable works that it does
to help to provide hospitals for children, hospice care,
counselling and so on.
As I was watching television I noticed at the bottom of the
screen the names and the donations of the people who were putting
forward their widow's mite, so to speak, to help out the cause.
Of course there are millions of dollars required to make this
thing function properly but, as the dollars and names were going
across the bottom of the screen, I noticed an obvious trend.
There was a name such as John Adams, $100; Sarah Smith, $50; and
on it went down the list.
Consistently people were very generously giving to a charitable
cause because they wanted to do what was right and they wanted to
do a good thing. Most of the donations were very small. They
were in the order of $20, $50, $100, and there was the odd large
donation. But, in essence, they were all trying to do a good
thing. They will get a tax credit for doing that. That is good.
We support that in our tax system.
Unfortunately, what is not going to happen is that they are not
going to get the same kind of tax credit as they would if they
gave that same money to a political party. That is not right.
That is why this motion reads:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should bring
in legislation making the tax deduction for contributions to
charitable organizations no less than than the tax deduction for
contributions to political parties.
I will not claim this as an original idea of mine. In 1996 the
24th report of the Standing Committee on Finance recommended that
the government consider enhancing the charitable tax credit for
donations to charities currently funded by governments to make it
as generous as the current political tax credit for small
donations to political parties.
The government chose not to implement that recommendation in
1996. However, the time has come. The budget is now balanced
and it is an option that the government should consider. This
motion, when passed, will ask the government to do the right
thing; that is, to put charities on a level playing field with
political parties.
There are other aspects of charities that some people may want
to debate in the House. For example, the member for
Wentworth—Burlington has done some work on the accountability of
charities themselves, but that is a debate for another day. This
has to do strictly with the donations and how they are handled by
the tax system. That other debate is a good debate for another
session.
Does the present tax credit system benefit political parties
more than charities? Absolutely. For a $100 contribution to a
political party a donor will receive a $75 federal tax credit.
For a $100 gift to a charity a donor will receive a $17 federal
tax credit. Clearly the donations to charities are not treated
the same and are treated far less favourably than donations to
political parties.
1110
Today I will argue two points in relation to M-318. First I
will explain why charities deserve special treatment under
Canada's tax law and, second, why charities deserve no less
favourable treatment than what political parties receive
currently under the tax code.
First, the activities of charitable organizations provide
sociably desirable benefits in a number of important areas of
Canadian life. They includes everything from health services to
services to prisoners, heritage exhibits and shelters for
homeless people. In innumerable ways charities help society.
Charities employ over one million people in Canada. They are a
big employer. Yes they take in charitable donations, but they in
turn put that money back into services for people. Charities
maintain and improve the quality of life in our communities.
Charities provide a more direct and efficient way of identifying
the needs and preferences in our communities than do governments.
I have used this expression before, but I think it is worth
repeating. Governments take our money, deduct 50% for handling,
then give it back in the form of services that the community
often did not ask for. However, when an individual gives to a
particular charitable cause they have chosen to direct their
money to a particular need in their community. Rather than give
$100 to the taxman, they have indicated that they would rather
give their money to the Salvation Army soup kitchen, to a
homeless group or to help someone who is providing hospice
facilities for battered women.
Whatever the cause might be, the individuals have chosen to
direct their money to a certain area. They have not asked the
government to provide a program. They have said they will do
it. They just want the flexibility to be able to direct the
money. They can do it just as well and, in fact, often better
than government.
Alternatively, governments must identify the needs and allocate
resources as best they can to meet the needs. They do this in a
variety of ways. They combine their political agenda with the
perceived needs to create a blanket, country-wide program that
often does not meet those needs. They often do not represent the
needs required in a very diverse country like Canada.
Study after study has indicated that tax incentives designed to
encourage charitable giving will increase revenues to non-profit
organizations by an amount greater than the loss of tax revenues
to the federal government. In other words, when we try to help
the charities with this kind of tax measure we not only encourage
more giving, we increase exponentially the benefits to all
communities across the country.
Why should the charitable tax credit be no less than the
political tax credit? First of all, the status quo hurts
charities. In the 1990s federal, provincial and municipal
governments have reduced spending on programs significantly. As
a result the charitable sector has become a life support system
for the hungry, the homeless, victims of domestic violence,
refugees, the unemployed and medical patients who find themselves
relying more and more on the charitable sector.
To help charities pick up the slack of these cuts the federal
government has implemented a number of tax incentives to
encourage giving to the charitable sector. Those moves which
the government has made have been good moves. Although I have
not agreed with the budgets that the government has brought
forward in the last couple of years, the provisions it
has made to charitable status, for example, increasing the
amount of donations eligible for tax credit from 50% to 75% of
net income, are good.
This indicates the government's acknowledgement that charities
do good work in Canada. We should encourage charitable work.
More than just dollars are involved. It increases the
compassion of society.
We on this side of the House and I think all members would agree
that governments cannot do it all. We will have to rely
increasingly on individuals, on families and on charitable
organizations to pick up the slack. That is not a bad thing;
that is a good thing. That could be a very good thing. But we
need to ensure that we do not discriminate against those
organizations by making the tax system skewed one way or another.
1115
The question that now remains is what are the best public policy
tools to use to generate greater incentives for people to give to
charities?
Motion No. 318 provides one of those tools. It is an excellent
tool to generate greater giving to charities. I do not have a
Canadian study on the equivalent but it probably is much the same
as the American studies. They indicate that for every dollar in
government revenue lost in the U.S. due to higher tax credits,
donations to charities increase by over $1.20. In other words
people pick up the slack and then some. They will say “If that
is a cutback over there, I will give sacrificially in order to
pick up that slack”.
Levelling the playing field between charities and political
parties also would send a signal to Canadians that the government
values donations to political parties and charities equally.
Right now they value the political donations more highly than
they do charitable donations. That is not right. This motion
would eliminate the unfair advantage political parties have over
charities when it comes to trying to attract donations and in
fact when the taxpayer in essence is topping up the funds of a
political party rather than topping up the funds of the local
Salvation Army.
Where does the government stand on this issue? I will be
interested to hear from the government side during this debate.
Certainly in the 1996 prebudget report, the all-party finance
committee recommended that the government enhance the charitable
tax credit for donations to charities to make it as generous as
the current political tax credit for small donations to political
parties. This is exactly the motion I brought forward today.
That is why I admitted earlier I will not claim that this is my
original idea. What it is trying to do is to bring to fruition
the desires I think of all parties in the House to make charities
more viable and give them the assets they need to fill the gap
that has resulted from other government cutbacks.
Where do the charities stand on this issue? What would they
think of this? In November 1995 the president and CEO of the
Canadian Centre for Philanthropy said:
Dare I suggest as well that if you believe, as do I, that the
value of a dollar donated to a voluntary charitable organization
is every bit as important as the value of a dollar donated to
political parties, you might also look at equalizing the tax
treatment for contributions between those two groups or sectors?
Again it is exactly what this motion proposes. Why has the
government ignored it to date? I touched on it briefly. My
guess is that in the period of deficit budgets the government
just felt it could not move any further on ways to help
charities. It felt the budget just did not allow it to do that.
Now that we enjoy a balanced budget and we are going to find
ways of distributing surpluses in the coming year, one of the
ways no doubt will be some tax relief. That is much needed. One
way will be to pay down some debt that is much needed. But
another and a relatively painless way is to do what the all-party
committee recommended which is to allow charities to do their
work and do it better by equalizing this charitable donation. As
Canada moves into this post-deficit world, levelling that playing
field can be not only an affordable idea for the government but
it will become a very politically wise move to show that we value
the charitable organizations in our country.
I deliberately worded Motion No. 318 to talk about equalizing
the charitable and political donation tax credits. I did not
specifically say a percentage rate or whatever because I believe
that could be part of an interesting debate over the three hours.
We can increase the tax credit for donations to charities from
17% to 75%, the same thing as the current political parties get.
That is an option.
The motion is worded in such a way that it allows the government
to enter into this debate to say what it thinks that optimum rate
should be. Obviously I think charities should get more of a
break. We discuss whether political parties deserve any break at
all, something in between or what it might be but certainly not
more preferential than charities.
I will go through a couple of options. Option one is to
increase to 75% the tax credit for charitable donations and
political donations. That would cost the government $190 million
a year. It is no small amount of money. It is significant
dollars but it would at least level it for those small donations,
the ones I mentioned earlier that flash on the screen during
telethons.
1120
Option two as another example is a 50% tax credit. Obviously
that levels the playing field for those small donations. It
costs considerably less. It has the appeal of being the same for
both politicians and charities and would cost even less money.
My preferred option is to make the charitable donations the same
as the current political donation system. That system is very
generous to political parties. It allows a 75% tax credit on the
first $100. It allows a 50% tax credit for donations between
$100 and $550. It would increase the charitable tax credit to
one-third for donations over $550. That would cost $800 million.
Again it is a significant amount of money.
When we consider that kind of a tax credit, if all other studies
remain constant in Canada, it would increase donations to
charitable organizations to well over $1 billion a year. Think
of the good this country could do through its charities. Think of
the goodwill we could extend through those charitable
organizations by showing them through our tax system just how
much we value their contribution to Canadian society.
Canadians are a very generous group of people. In 1996 there
were over five million charity donors. Half of those donors gave
$150 or less to charities. They are small givers. Sometimes they
are people who are starting out in their married lives and cannot
afford to give a lot but they give $100 or $150.
Charities rely on those small donations to make ends meet. That
is their bread and butter. They do not get a big windfall at the
end of the month where somebody comes by and says “I thought I
would drop a million dollars on your organization”. They rely on
those small donations. Logically then it seems appropriate to
reward those people for their gifts and to encourage even more
small donors to get into the habit of philanthropy early in their
lives and give them the tax incentive to make sure that it
happens.
Making the charitable tax credit no less than the tax credit for
political parties is not too expensive. The government can choose
one of these options. We could debate what rates are the most
beneficial or the most preferential. Perhaps the government has
some ideas of its own. I would be interested to hear that.
One must also keep in mind that any public revenue lost in the
form of a charity tax credit will be more than made up for I
believe in reduced social costs. It is part of strengthening the
civil society by allowing charities, families and non-government
organizations to do their work and to do it well. We can do
that. We can strengthen it. We will help out the sick, the
needy, the depressed, the homeless. We can help them all by
increasing our support both tangibly with the money and also our
public support, our words of support, our acknowledgement of the
importance of charitable organizations.
It would also make the system more efficient. We would have a
tax system which treats all those donations the same, whether
they be political or charitable. We would have a tax system that
would at least have one column taken out of the multipage form
which would make it somewhat easier to fill out.
It would become a fairer system to the charity donor. They
would not have to sit there biting their nails wondering whether
it is $100 to the Reform Party or the Liberal Party or somebody
else and that only costs them $25 so maybe they had better do it.
They could also make that similar choice and what a delicious
dilemma to be able to say “Instead I can give it to my local
charitable organization of my choice”.
Motion No. 318 would send an important message to Canadians. It
would signal the importance of charity work and the
responsibility of all citizens to share toward helping to improve
the lifestyle and the lives of everyone in society through
charitable organizations. It would also send a message that
government is not intended nor can it ever be all things to all
people.
There are other ways and other organizations in which we can help
pick up the slack that will be better directed in local
communities rather than in broad national programs.
1125
In conclusion there was a newspaper article in the Vancouver
Sun last year by well-known financial expert Michael
Campbell. He wrote an editorial saying “If the numbers are any
indication of the relative importance politicians place on the
two activities, then in their judgment the re-election of a
political party is about four and one-half times more valuable
than charitable work”.
I do not belittle the work of political parties. They serve a
purpose in society. I am part of one and I will continue to be.
I agree with the all-party committee in 1996 which said “Let us
do it right; let us make the playing field level”. I agree with
comments like Michael Campbell's that say it is time to level
that importance.
Let us put all donations whether they be political or charitable
on a level playing field. When it comes down to debate and the
vote some weeks from now, I hope all parties and individual MPs
in the House will be able to rise to say we did the right thing
by levelling the playing field and finally the charitable
organizations are to receive the equal treatment they deserve.
Mr. Tony Valeri (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to
participate in the debate on Motion No. 318.
I will take a few moments to respond on behalf of the government
to the motion that has been put forward by the member for Fraser
Valley.
The government recognizes the motivation for the hon. member's
motion and fully supports the principle of offering generous tax
assistance to charitable giving. The purpose of the present tax
regime with respect to charitable giving is to encourage larger
donations.
The current tax regime was put in place in consultation with the
charitable organizations. The government has provided additional
incentives to charitable giving in four of the last five federal
budgets. Measures that have been adopted include: lowering the
threshold for eligibility for the 29% level of the tax credit to
$200 from $250; raising the annual income limit for the use of
charitable donations to most charities from 20%, and when the
government took office to 75%; and reducing the income inclusion
rate for capital gains arising from the donation of appreciated
publicly traded securities to 37.5%.
The hon. member should recognize that the differences in
treatment of political contributions and charitable donations
reflect the different policy intention of the two measures. The
design of the federal political contributions tax credit reflects
the desire to encourage greater grassroots involvement by all
Canadians in the political process.
For this reason a generous tax assistance is given to small
political contributions. This tax assistance is reduced by
incremental amounts to the point that the federal tax assistance
is eliminated for amounts contributed to federal political
parties in excess of $1,150 per contributor per year.
In contrast, tax assistance for charitable donations is greater
for amounts in excess of $200 in order to encourage larger
donations to charities. This type of larger scale giving allows
for a greater measure of stability and predictability for
charities.
In the case of very large donations, tax credits may be claimed
for donations up to 75% of a taxpayer's income in any given year.
Tax credits may be carried forward to future years should the
75% limit be exceeded. Recently we have witnessed the important
role that the present tax regime has played in charitable giving.
The charitable industry has reported seeing more large scale
donations from individuals. In particular it has witnessed this
trend following the implementation of the 1997 budget which
contained provisions allowing for reduced taxation of capital
gains on publicly traded shares given to registered charities.
The Globe and Mail recently called this tax change which
effectively cut in half the capital gains tax that donors pay on
such gifts a bonanza for the charity industry.
The University of Toronto has received more than 70 individual
contributions of $1 million or greater during its current
fundraising drive. Gordon Floyd, director of public affairs at
the Canadian Centre for Philanthropy, recently stated that
charities have “all seen a real surge in major gifts of stock
since that legislation changed”.
The executive director of the ROM Foundation has also noted an
increase in tax driven gifts to charities, particularly from new
benefactors.
1130
He states: “Since 1997 we have received gifts from individuals
in the form of shares that we would not have otherwise received.
It has made a difference”.
The incentives for large scale giving also bore fruit in terms
of a new community foundations movement which is a collection of
endowment funds committed to local projects. A coalition of
leaders heading up this movement recently announced in Calgary
that their collective assets are now worth more than $1 billion.
This announcement is clearly good news for communities.
These foundations tend to fill a unique need in that they are
funding locally based projects across the country in almost every
province. Gifts to such foundations can be allocated in many
ways, including a general community fund or a specific cause. A
little more than a week ago members of a youth advisory committee
from Calgary announced a series of grants they were awarding,
including a $1,000 grant to a high school program that helps with
the integration of immigrants. This type of community action by
these foundations is encouraging and helps to reinforce our
collective notion about the relevance and importance of community
in an increasing globalized world.
We can see from these examples that the tax regime that has been
put in place has been working to maximize the benefits of
charitable giving for both individuals and charities and the
important work they carry out. Charities have mushroomed into an
$88 billion affair spreading through 76,000 organizations ranging
from hospitals to houses of worship to social services.
By any measurement this industry has been growing more important
and stronger every year under the present tax structure. While
we have seen that large scale giving has been greatly affected by
tax incentives, we have also found that donations of small
amounts to charities have not been strongly motivated by the
availability of tax assistance. Consequently the greatest effect
of this proposal before the House would be to increase the fiscal
cost of tax assistance accorded to donations that would have, in
all likelihood, been made in any case. Canadians donate in the
smaller increments because they want to.
The level of tax assistance accorded most charitable donations
results in a roughly 50:50 partnership between government and the
private sector in support of charities. It is consistent with
the principle that although charities promote the public good
they have direct control over their activities in these areas and
their priorities will not generally be identical to those of
government.
In summary, the government cannot support this motion for the
following central reason, our basic difference in approach. The
current design of the charitable donations tax credit acts to
encourage larger donations while recognizing the value of smaller
donations verses the argument put forward by the hon. member
across the way where he draws the analogy between charitable
donations and political contributions. The political
contribution tax credit encourages small donations but limits tax
assistance for large contributions. That is the basic difference
between the two. The greatest impact of this motion would be to
increase tax assistance accorded to donations that would have
been made in any case.
Tax assistance accorded charitable donations has contributed
significantly to the growth of this industry. For the reasons
outlined we cannot support the motion. I thank the member
opposite for bringing this motion forward for debate so that we
can all be reminded of the importance of charitable giving and
the worthy causes pursued through their work.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères, BQ): Madam Speaker, it is my
pleasure to rise today to speak to Motion M-318 moved by my
colleague, the Reform Party whip and member for Fraser Valley.
His motion calls for legislation to be brought in to make the
deduction for contributions to charitable organizations no less
than the tax deduction for contributions to political parties.
This motion flows from a recommendation made by the House of
Commons Standing Committee on Finance in its 24th report to the
35th Parliament, which was tabled in January 1996.
1135
Indeed, the committee recommended that the government consider
increasing tax deductions for contributions to charitable
organizations to match the tax deduction for contributions to
political parties. The government never took this recommendation
into account in preparing the various budgets tabled since 1996,
preferring to maintain a policy of cutbacks, particularly in
transfer payments to the provinces.
These cuts have resulted in the first surplus in a very long
time being accumulated in the coffers of the federal government,
which merrily took advantage of this fiscal flexibility regained
through other people's efforts to shamelessly step into
provincial jurisdictions with blatant initiatives like the
millennium scholarships.
As noble as the stated purpose of helping students may be, there
was a hidden agenda to increase the federal government's
visibility at the provinces' expense. In addition, in the riding
of Verchères, the government's erratic fiscal behaviour led to
the termination of the Tokamak project in Varennes, a world
leader in microwave technology stemming from nuclear fusion
research.
Research conducted in the Tokamak laboratories was promising in
terms of new, safe and clean sources of energy.
This motion is a wake up call to the government about its
unfairness and its fiscal inconsistency.
Those making a $100 contribution to a political party enjoy a
federal tax credit of $75. However, a $100 gift to a charity
entitles the contributor to a tax credit of $17. Today's social
difficulties arising from the many federal budget cuts have
created an ever expanding socio-economic role for charitable
organizations because of the increasing withdrawal of
governments.
The donors enabling these organizations to carry on their work
in the community should enjoy the same tax benefit as those,
who, equally legitimately, contribute to political parties.
In my opinion, the government must remedy the situation as
quickly as possible. Most charitable organizations operate
thanks to the many volunteers who work there for nothing. I
take this opportunity to pay tribute to and congratulate our
many fellow Canadians who volunteer body and soul, with often
very limited means, to help attenuate the effects of the
problems affecting our society such as poverty, violence and
suicide among the young, to name but these few.
Charitable organizations operate in a variety of sectors.
There are fundraising activities and help for victims of natural
catastrophes such as the ice storm and the floods of the
Saguenay and of the Red River in Manitoba, for example.
In the fight against poverty, there is United Way and the many
other volunteer action centres we have in our various ridings.
There are services helping young people. I pay tribute to the
workers at houses for youth, drop in centres to help young
people find a job, and cadet, scout and guide troops.
There are also fundraising and volunteer work for hospitals and
seniors' residences.
Fundraising for such foundations as the
Muscular Dystrophy Foundation, the Heart and Stroke Foundation
and the Fondation Enfant-Soleil, which held its telethon
yesterday. I would like at this point to thank all those who,
each according to their means, made the telethon such a success.
Funds are being raised for university research and various
school organizations.
Charitable organizations are involved with young people,
handicapped people, municipal libraries, museums, leisure parks
and summer camps, among other things. I want to take this
opportunity to salute service clubs such as the Optimist Club,
the Lions, the Knights of Columbus, the Daughters of Isabel and
the senior citizens clubs that organize meaningful activities for
young people, the elderly, and underprivileged families.
Raising the tax deduction would encourage donors to invest more
in charities to help them meet their humanitarian and
philanthropic goals, especially since these donors are their
main source of funding.
Speaking of donors, I would like to mention some telling
statistics.
1140
In Canada, in 1996, there were over 80,000 registered charities,
14,000 of them in Quebec, that received over $4 billion, including
$457 million in Quebec, from 5,451,860 donors, 1,255,773 of them
in Quebec. In 1996, the total number of donors was 5,461,860,
compared to 5,460,730 in 1992.
How can we explain the levelling, if not the net drop in the
number of donors? I submit this is the result of a charitable
tax deduction which is not enough of an incentive.
The government must review the tax deduction for contributions
to registered charities and make it more appealing for donors to
take a more active part in funding these organizations.
My colleagues from the Bloc and I will vote in favour of
the motion.
[English]
Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Madam Speaker, it is
with pleasure today that I rise to speak on this motion being put
forward by the member for Fraser Valley.
The PC party is willing to support this motion on behalf of
charities across Canada. With the latest round of government
downsizing, charities across the country have been placed under
even more pressure to perform in many of the same areas
previously the exclusive domain of government.
I think of areas of health care, for instance where many
hospitals across Canada have had to increase their private
fundraising efforts to make up for the slack of the downsizing of
government funding and the reduction to CHST transfers to the
provinces which has resulted in a tremendous amount of hardship,
especially in the Atlantic provinces where the local tax base
simply cannot support, under current charitable donations
regulations, the amount of fundraising required to keep our
health care system alive and well.
I think of the Victorian Order of Nurses. The VON is a national
organization with branches across the country. In recent years
the role of the VON has been forced to expand exponentially as
our health care services have been cut by the Liberal government.
Many branches have been forced to increase their fundraising
efforts to make up for the decline in funding resulting from
these higher level cuts in federal government funding for health
care.
It is one thing to offload financial responsibility to the
provinces. It is another thing to offload leadership, which is
effectively what the federal government has done in the area of
health care.
The VON branch in my riding of Kings Hants has suffered severe
funding cuts from the municipality as the counties struggle to
deal with the cuts from the provincial and federal governments.
When the federal government reduces funding to health care it
creates a domino effect whereby the province of Nova Scotia and
ultimately the municipalities have to pick up the slack. We
simply do not have the local tax base. That is why this motion
is very important. It recognizes the needs at the grassroots
level for changes to charitable donations and the treatment of
charitable donations to increase the incentive for Canadians in
communities across Canada to contribute and to help pick up the
slack for the cuts and the reduced responsibility of the federal
government.
A charitable organization like the VON offers essential health
services to the elderly in my riding. Programs like the PEP
program, promoting elderly participation, which was initiated
with the help of Health Canada during the Conservative
government's time in office, help keep seniors active and
involved with other citizens in their community. They are very
important, particularly in the context of an aging population.
These are programs that no longer receive government funding and
the charities have had to find alternative funding arrangements
just to continue these services.
Organizations like the VON are now forced to fundraise to
subsidize visiting nurses programs, for instance to individuals
who need to be checked at home. For the elderly who cannot
afford to pay for home visits these services are extraordinarily
important.
These visiting nurses programs, combined with the PEP program,
respite care and meals on wheels, would not exist if not for the
dedication and perseverance of volunteers and of course the
generosity of donors.
When a person representing a political party in Canada can offer
a potential donor a greater tax incentive to donate to their
political party than an individual canvassing for a group like
the VON that provides essential health services, it uncovers an
injustice in our tax system and one that the member for Fraser
Valley is quite right in recognizing and in addressing with this
motion.
1145
It highlights a larger problem, that being the complexity of
Canada's tax code. If I had a complete copy of our tax code it
would stand at about the same height as I am standing. I studied
taxation as part of my finance degree in university. Not only
was it one of the driest courses I have ever taken, which I would
not wish on anybody, but it acquainted me with the incredible and
egregiously complex nature of the Canadian tax code.
It is appalling that a person with a small business in Canada
has to hire a tax accountant to deal with the government. Filing
a tax return should be a simple transaction between the person
and the government. They should not need to be represented by a
third party to deal with the government. This motion helps to
recognize the greater problem, which is the tremendous complexity
of Canada's tax code. The PC Party will continue to fight for a
fairer, flatter tax system.
As I discuss tax relief for low income Canadians, it should be
remembered that tax reform needs to be done in a more holistic
manner instead of addressing one part or another. It is
unfortunate that much of the tax reform brought forward serves to
complicate and not simplify the tax code. The guiding principle
behind tax reform should be tax simplification.
Even the finance committee recognized the need to assist our
charities in their efforts to expand their fundraising
activities. During pre-budget consultations last year witnesses
who appeared before the committee suggested that a motion similar
to this motion be brought forward. The finance committee
included this idea in its recommendations to the Minister of
Finance.
Charities like the VON and particularly charities involved in
the provision of health care, which has been so tremendously
affected by the irresponsible cuts of the Liberal government
since 1993, should not be disadvantaged compared with political
parties when canvassing for donations. If we were to increase
the advantages of donating to charitable organizations, or if
they were at least brought into line with political
contributions, charities across this country would receive
considerable benefit. In fact, all Canadians would benefit from
such a change. Charitable organizations offer essential services
to society and they should be encouraged, not discouraged, by
parliament to continue their activities.
Mr. Dick Proctor (Palliser, NDP): Madam Speaker, I am
pleased to take part in the debate today on Motion No. 318 which
was moved by the member for Fraser Valley. The motion suggests
that charitable donations should be treated no less equitably
than donations to a political party. There are some arguments to
be made in terms of fairness and equity on this subject.
I tend to agree with the government member who spoke on this
motion a few minutes ago. He said that we are really discussing
apples and oranges. Political donations have a very limited
threshold. It is 75% of the first $100, 50% of the next $450 and
33% of the last $600, with a cap of $1,150. If a person gives
more than that to their favourite political party they do not
enjoy any form of rebate. The tax credit is given in the year in
which the money is donated to the political party.
That is quite a bit different than the situation we have with
charitable donations where up to 75% of a taxpayer's income can
be forwarded to the charity or charities of their choice. Tax
forwarding advantages can be used on many other things that are
simply not available with the political tax credit.
1150
By way of history, the political tax credit came into being in
this country following the 1972-74 minority government. It was
one of the conditions for our party's support for the then
Trudeau government that it bring in some kind of public financing
for the political process and it may very well be in need of
updating and redressing.
The Lortie commission on electoral reform and party financing
discussed a number of these things several years ago. I might
remind members opposite that this government has managed to
ignore the recommendations of the Lortie commission since it
tabled its report in 1992.
I remember being involved with the Lortie commission on a trip
to Harvard University where we met with a number of American
politicos. They wondered, I think quite correctly, why we were
in their country talking to them about political donations
because we had a much fairer system in this country. Thanks to
funds that come in through public financing for political parties
we get away from all the soft money and all the money that is
raised. There are limits. There is a process. Generally
speaking, it has worked well in this country for the last two
decades.
I think it is all well and good to talk about the explosion of
charities and the need for more money. I agree with what has
been said on that point, but let us get at the reasons there has
been an explosion in the need for money for charities.
As has been correctly pointed out, but with no editorial
comments attached, cutbacks have been made by all levels of
government as they have focused on balancing their budgets,
eliminating their deficits and concentrating on paying off their
debts.
I think we could have a very interesting debate about why we
need all these charities and that if we had a proper tax system
and financing for a number of social programs people would not be
required to go door to door or call us at six o'clock at night
for a donation for their favourite charity.
I think when the member moved his motion he was clearly
directing his attention at the small donor, the person who gives
$50 or $100. It may very well be that we do need to look at
levelling the playing field for those small donors, with a cap of
perhaps $1,150, which is currently what the political tax credit
is, or perhaps with inflation over the last two decades we should
be looking at moving that number up to $2,000 so it is more
appropriate in this day and age.
Someone might make the argument that there should be symmetry
between political givings and charitable donations at the low
end. However, we should be be careful about the absolute amount
that is donated to a political party.
There are lots of good arguments that could be advanced on
another day on that topic, but with respect to charitable
donations, nobody is arguing that we should cap them, so we are
talking, to some extent, about oranges and apples.
In conclusion, I believe that there is a case to be made at the
low end for levelling the playing field, but I would leave it at
that.
Mr. Rey D. Pagtakhan (Parliamentary Secretary to Prime
Minister, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to debate this
motion. However, before we rush to adopt this motion, which on
the surface would appear to give added tax benefits to charitable
donors, let us first examine the present status of tax benefits
for charitable donations and ask ourselves what would be the
fiscal cost to government and, most importantly, what would be
the consequence to charities themselves.
In fact, the immediate consequence to charitable contributors,
were the legislation to be put in place as moved, would be a zero
federal tax benefit for charitable donations in excess of $1,150
per donor per year.
That is the present situation for federal tax credits on
political contributions.
1155
Why is the design for tax treatment different between political
contributions and charitable donations?
The difference in design reflects the difference in the policy
intent and goals of the two. A tax credit for political
contributions is aimed at encouraging greater grassroots
involvement by all Canadians in the political process, while at
the same time preventing the overbearing influence of those who
can afford a large donation. Hence, more generous tax assistance
is given to smaller political contributions.
This tax assistance is reduced incrementally to the point of
zero when political contributions exceed $1,150 per contributor
per year.
In contrast, the tax credit for charitable donations is aimed
not only at recognizing the value of all levels of donations, big
or small, but also at encouraging larger donations to charities.
Hence, tax assistance for charitable donations is greater for
amounts in excess of $200, 29% or more versus 17% for the first
$200, and the threshold for this eligibility was recently lowered
from the original $250.
Moreover, tax credits may be claimed for very large donations up
to 75%, raised from the previous 20%, of a taxpayer's income in
any given year. The tax credit may be carried forward for the
ensuing five years should the 75% limit be exceeded.
The income inclusion rate for capital gains arising from the
donation of appreciated publicly traded securities was also
reduced to 37.5%.
So we can see that in four of the last five federal budgets tax
measures have been taken to ensure that donations to charities
indeed are encouraged.
To date, the level of tax benefits accorded most charitable
donations result in approximately a 50-50 partnership between the
government and the private sector in the support of charities.
What the fiscal cost of the measure would be were we to
implement the motion as moved would be approximately $125 million
per year for the federal government and some $55 million for the
provincial governments. The effect on the level of charitable
donations likely would not be that much.
Small donations to charities are not strongly motivated by the
availability of tax benefits. Thus, treating charitable
donations in the same way as political contributions would not
necessarily increase the total amount of donations from small
donors. At the same time, larger donations from big donors may
in fact diminish in number.
In a recent news item reported in the May 27, 1998 issue of the
Ottawa Citizen, the increase in the number of large
donations—in millions of dollars—to help the Canadian Red
Cross, land mine survivors and cultural institutions was
attributed to tax measures adopted in the last five federal
budgets of this government.
The greatest effect of the proposal would be to increase the
fiscal costs of tax assistance accorded to donations that would
have been made in any case. Charities themselves would receive
little benefit.
I share the principle of charitable giving. We share the belief
as Canadians that charitable giving, which is a defining
character of the Canadian nation, expresses the best in our
people. We are people who take pride in helping the most
vulnerable of our citizens and in advancing lofty causes such as
scholarships, the performing arts, research, professional
faculties, ethnic studies, finding cures for diseases, literacy,
sports, international development projects and others.
In essence, we help to ensure that the Canadian citizenry is
sound in mind and body. This goal is a chance we give as
well to the people in developing nations. This spirit of helping
fellow citizens, neighbours and strangers, is very much a part of
the Canadian culture. Essentially, Canadians, particularly the
small donors, give not because of tax incentives or any monetary
inducement, but because they want to give.
Viewed in this light, Canadians will see the soundness of the
current differential government policy with respect to the two
types of donations and see the absence of need to treat them in
the same way.
A political contribution is a contribution to help advance the
cause of democracy. Charitable donations are more than a
contribution. Charitable contributions are gifts to help advance
the noble causes of the heart. We value and hold in esteem
charitable donors for their gifts of the heart.
1200
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, I see we only have a minute or two left in Private
Members' Business. There is not a lot of time to adequately
address Motion No. 318 put forward by my hon. colleague from
Fraser Valley.
I find it absolutely unbelievable, not only to members on this
side of the House, but indeed to all the people across Canada who
are watching at home today that we would even have to have this
debate, that we would even have to have this motion put forward
by my hon. colleague from Fraser Valley. I certainly applaud his
initiative to bring this matter forward.
We are talking about the issue of levelling the playing field at
a minimum. The motion as my hon. colleague pointed out says “no
less than”. That is a key phrase in the motion itself. It says
that in the opinion of this House the government should bring in
legislation making the tax deduction for contributions to
charitable organizations no less than the tax deduction for
contributions to political parties.
In reply or rebuttal, the hon. member from the governing Liberal
Party who just spoke is missing the point. He said that if this
were to go ahead and we levelled the playing field and treated
both exactly the same, that anybody wanting to make a donation to
a charity of more than $1,150 in any given year would get no
additional tax credit. He is quite correct if we did it exactly
the same, but that is not what the motion says. The motion very
clearly says no less than.
In the excellent presentation that my hon. colleague from Fraser
Valley made in speaking to his private members' motion, and the
need to bring this type of legislation forward, he threw out the
challenge not only to government members but to members from all
the political parties to suggest some options. He said to look at
alternatives.
One of the options I would like to discuss is the option of
eliminating the tax credit for political parties and reassigning
the benefit from that to charities. That type of tax reform would
certainly be supported by a lot more Canadians than the present
system. The small donors, the average donor, the person who can
only donate $50 to any given entity be it a charity or a
political party, those are the people we need to target. We need
to ensure that it is not a case where $100 to a political party
gets a $75 tax credit but $100 to a charity only gets a $17 tax
credit. That is the issue. That is the driving force behind
this motion and the reason why I am certainly speaking in support
of it.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The period provided
for the consideration of Private Members' Business has now
expired and the order is dropped to the bottom of the order of
precedence on the Order Paper.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[Translation]
SUPPLY
ALLOTTED DAY-UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ) moved:
That the
House castigate the government for the catastrophic effects of
its reforms to unemployment insurance; for having taken over
funds destined for unemployed persons; and for its inability to
adapt the unemployment insurance system to the new realities of
the labour market, particularly where young people, women, and
self-employed persons are concerned.
1205
He said: Madam Speaker, I wish to inform you that I will be
sharing my time with the member for Québec, who is also my
assistant on the Standing Committee on Human Resources
Development.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): If the hon. member wants to
share his time, I have to ask for the unanimous consent of the
House to proceed in this fashion. Is it agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Paul Crête: Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to speak today
to this motion brought forward by the Bloc Quebecois.
Around this time last Monday, the Bloc Quebecois launched the
first initiative of employment insurance week, making the whole
country aware, among other things, that only one out of every
four unemployed young people is entitled to employment insurance
benefits. Three out of four young people who have paid
contributions cannot receive EI benefits.
The week dedicated to employment insurance also included a
public forum and a panel of experts.
We saw the impact of that week on parliamentary business. We saw
all kinds of statements, particularly by the Minister of Human
Resources Development, who said that tightening the requirements
was good for young Canadians since it gave them a chance to go
back to school. According to him, there is nothing wrong with
being strict to the point where people who have contributed to a
plan are not entitled to benefits. It is perfectly legal and it
actually shows compassion for our young people. We saw the
public condemn that statement.
Last week also gave us the opportunity to expose what has been
called the employment insurance scandal. We now have the proof
we needed. The minister was forced to admit that the billions of
dollars paid in employment insurance premiums were not put into
a distinct account.
Still, it was again pointed out, as it was by the Auditor
General of Canada, that there had to be a separate account to
ensure that employment insurance was monitored appropriately.
There is no such separate account. The government used the
money to reduce the deficit. We understand the deficit did have
to be dealt with, but we have understood today as well that this
was done at the expense of workers earning less than $39,000 a
year, and of the unemployed, whose eligibility for and duration
of benefits the Liberals have twice managed to reduce, in both
the 1994 and the 1996 reforms.
Late last week, five studies were released on the assessment of
the 1994 reform, and these were not carried out by Bloc
Quebecois experts or by experts wishing to express their
opinions but by experts on the government payroll.
Among other things, these studies addressed the consequences on
long term employment. Part of the conclusion states “It seems
therefore that Bill C-17 has attained its objective, which is to
reduce the eligibility for benefits of those who are eligible
but have spent little time in the workforce”.
These conclusions are an admission that the objective was to
decrease eligibility for employment insurance benefits for
seasonal workers and others with similar jobs.
Another finding of the study addressed the duration of the lost
employment and the eligibility for employment insurance.
According to the expert, “Workers in high unemployment
provinces, the Atlantic provinces in particular, and Quebec to
some extent, or high unemployment industries, such as the
primary and construction sectors, are far more prone to job
loss. A randomly selected worker in these provinces or
industries could expect to lose far more in weekly benefits than
a worker from any other region in Canada, as a result of Bill
C-17”.
Those choices were deliberate. They knew the consequences would
be lower benefits to the unemployed, and even less employment.
Another study on the duration of unemployment benefits was
released at the same time.
1210
It compared two groups: that of 1993 and that of 1995. It said
that belonging to the 1995 group increased one's chances of
getting off unemployment, resulting in a significant decrease in
duration. Right after the election campaign, the Prime Minister
said “We are going to set aside all the Progressive Conservative
reforms and start treating people properly again”.
He did not say it verbally. It appeared in a letter that
pointed out, in so many words, that, under a Liberal government,
they would not treat people that way any more. Yet, less than
three months after the election, they passed a law that was even
tougher, even more restrictive than everything the Progressive
Conservatives had done before them.
It was the GST all over again.
That is why people are angry today. People throughout Canada
are angry; those affected by the cuts resulting from the 1994
reform are angry, but not as angry as those affected by the
cuts resulting from the 1996 reform, because the same implacable
logic is at work.
In 1994 the government said it was going to limit duration of
benefits. It then realized that this was not enough to wring a
bit more out of unemployed workers. In the 1996 reform, it
decided to come at it from the eligibility angle. This was when
it brought in the 910 hours for someone entering the job market.
A young person must work 26 35-hour weeks or, and this is to be
found nowhere, 62 15-hour weeks. Only the Liberals have a 62-week
year.
These young people have no other way of qualifying. That is the
direct reason why only one young person in four qualifies for
EI.
We are therefore looking at two Liberal reforms that have had a
major negative impact. The weekend editorial in the Nouvelliste
said, and I quote: “There is no shame in changing course when it
is clear that our policies are not producing the effects we
thought they would. Minister Martin announced that his old age
pension reform would be reworked, because it became clear that
it was going to penalize those who are setting money aside for
their later years. The time has now come to re-assess the EI
policy. Otherwise, this week's discontent, which goes well
beyond Quebec's borders, could turn into a time bomb for the
Liberals”.
I think the judgment that was passed reflects the reality. Last
year, on election night, almost one full year ago, the federal
Liberals received a clear message both from Atlantic Canada and
from the Quebec regions, who harshly criticized the reforms to
employment insurance. Last week, particularly when judgment was
passed on this issue, all Canadians clearly expressed their
dissatisfaction with the way the funds are currently managed and
stated that the government must react.
I would like to conclude by quoting an expert in this field,
Mr. Marc Van Audenrode, who co-wrote the study that demonstrated
that reforms to employment insurance push people onto welfare.
This morning, this author pointed out, among other things, that
Canada used to have one of the most generous employment
insurance schemes among OECD countries.
Nowadays, our system is not as generous as the average program
provided by OECD countries or by our competitors in New England.
It is about as generous as the program in Alabama.
We live in a parliamentary system. We have a government of
Canada. The duty of this government is not only to look through
the window to see if the economy is growing. Its duty is to
ensure that wealth is adequately distributed. It has to realize
that an adequate employment insurance program is the best way to
ensure that people do not end up unemployed and on welfare.
Given the situation, the federal government must quickly go back
to the drawing board. We offer the government our cooperation
through the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development
and the Status of Persons with Disabilities or in any other way.
The government should consider our six bills
and come up with a concrete proposal, because we cannot afford
to wait any longer.
1215
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Madam Speaker, I
simply want to comment on my colleague's efforts and stress how
much Bloc Quebecois members appreciate his work regarding this
issue and last week's very conclusive results.
It is important that we pursue the fight to achieve greater
fairness and a better distribution of wealth in Canada and in
Quebec. The Bloc Quebecois is particularly concerned about the
plight of young people, since one in four can no longer get the
support needed to ensure his or her future and return to the
workforce.
In light of this, my question to the hon. member has to do with
young people.
I would like to know to what degree young people are penalized
by this reform and how—since this is the object of our efforts—we
could improve their fate by overhauling this employment
insurance reform?
Mr. Paul Crête: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his
question.
Young people are indeed greatly affected. Three out of every
four are no longer eligible for benefits. Part of the solution
is found in our proposed bill, which seeks to bring back the
number of hours worked by a young person to be eligible for
benefits for the first time to a more reasonable figure than the
910 or so hours that are currently required, so as to allow
people, after their first job and particularly when they have
just finished school, to qualify with a reasonable number of
hours.
The other objective is to give self-employed persons access to
the employment insurance program. In addition to being unfair,
the program does not reflect the new realities of the labour
market.
Many young people are self-employed and would appreciate having
some income security. Sometimes, for example, this is what makes
the difference in the decision to start a family. There is a new
reality, but there is also a solution.
These are measures that the government should consider and that
this parliament should approve. Therefore, I ask the consent of
the House to make the motion votable, so that we can effectively
see where each parliamentarian stands on a crucial issue that is
being debated right across the country.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Does the hon. member have
unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Yes.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): There is no consent.
Mr. Paul Crête: Madam Speaker, just to finish answering the
question, I have to say the Liberal majority has not only
refused to discuss this issue in committee, but has just refused
that this motion be put to a vote.
I certainly hope the members from Quebec and the maritime
provinces will have to account for this decision by the
government when they go back in their ridings. Why have they
refused today to have this motion put to a vote? Why do they
show such a lack of courage, and why did they make this
decision? Are they totally out of touch with reality in their
ridings or are they more afraid of their whip than their need
for electors' trust?
I hope this opposition day will be an opportunity for the
Liberal majority to reconsider the issue and change its
attitude. When we ask the House to castigate the government for
the catastrophic effects of its reforms to unemployment
insurance; for having taken over funds destined for unemployed
persons; and for its inability to adapt the unemployment
insurance system to the new realities of the labour market,
particularly where young people, women, and self-employed persons
are concerned, it is because Canada should go back to the
drawing board, examine the situation, and take remedial action
as soon as possible.
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Madam Speaker, like my
colleague, the hon. member for
Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, I am pleased to
speak today on this important issue.
It is a well known fact that the Bloc Quebecois is very
concerned with the employment situation and the new employment
insurance reform.
1220
The Bloc Quebecois has made this whole issue its priority. We
have made many suggestions to the government to improve the
employment insurance reform, which is extremely hard on those
who lose their jobs. This is an unjustified reform, especially
when the government is piling billions of dollars, more
precisely $6 billion a year, in the employment insurance fund.
The motion of the hon. member for
Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques reads:
That the House castigate the government for the catastrophic
effects of its reforms to unemployment insurance; for having
taken over funds destined for unemployed persons; and for its
inability to adapt the unemployment insurance system to the new
realities of the labour market, particularly where young people,
women, and self-employed persons are concerned.
Last past week, there were editorials in various Quebec
newspapers describing this reform as unjustified.
Let me quote a few. La Presse called it primarily intellectual
fraud, a poor approach to taxation, a fundamental lack of
transparency on the part of this government.
The government is not honest with the people. That is what we
have been denouncing for over a year. We have denounced this
lack of transparency where the government helps itself to money
paid first by the workers and second by the employers. This is a
very harsh reform, which runs counter the very essence of what a
real employment insurance reform should be.
In Le Soleil, Donald Charest wrote “This is a fictitious
surplus”. It is well known that the $19 billion soon to be
accumulated in the employment insurance fund are no longer
available. It has been used to pay the government's grocery
bill, its deficit.
The government will be in a jam in the event of a recession. As
one of the editorials said, if at least the government had had
the foresight of accumulating this kind of surplus in case of a
recession, it could have been said that the government had an
ounce of wisdom.
But this is not what is happening in reality, because we know
full well that the amounts have been spent. These amounts are
virtual. They are not in the fund.
The fact that contributions are being maintained at very high
rates, that is $2.70, is very harmful for job creation. They
were reduced by only 20 cents. We know that for a worker who
earns $500 a week, these 20 cents represent $1 less in weekly
contributions.
Through the hon. member for
Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, six bills have
been introduced. When the human resources development minister
responds to our questions in the House, as he did during the
employment insurance week, he is not very credible.
He gives us somewhat farfetched answers that reflect his lack of
humanity and compassion toward unemployed people.
The minister tells us there are 500,000 more part time workers
who were not covered by the system and who are now covered. He
says to women who are on maternity leave that once their
children are raised they will have some extra assistance through
employment insurance. He also says that the government has acted
in a courageous manner and wanted to break the dependence cycle.
I respond to this by saying that even though there are 500,000
more part time workers who were not covered by the employment
insurance system previously, in fact this means that these
workers are paying contributions but cannot get any benefits.
These women do not qualify for employment insurance because they
have not worked enough hours. This is especially true for part
time workers.
For some women who have worked for 40 weeks, if they have worked
more hours during the first weeks, it does not count, because
the calculation is on the last 26 weeks. Consequently, they
receive even less benefits than before.
This is a reform that is unwarranted and we have several
comments as a result of the minister's answers. He says that the
government did not want a repeat of the situation that existed
when the Liberals came into office, when the deficit was at $6
billion. I can fully understand that a $6 billion deficit is a
concern for the government, but when there are $19 billion in
the employment insurance fund, I say to the minister that he is
not in a rush to undertake a reform, because it works to the
government's advantage.
At present, the government gets another $700,000 every hour.
Each and every hour, $700,000 more comes into the government's
coffers. So leaving the reform as it is means that, in the
meantime, the government is making money on the backs of the
workers. This is something to be severely criticized.
1225
I am glad much was made of this last week. The minister
responded to questions from the Bloc Quebecois by saying that he
had been all over the country meeting with people to discuss the
impact of the reform and that it is always a pleasure for him to
listen. He is very polite, but he is not very quick to act.
It is all fine and well for him to listen. However, members of
the Bloc Quebecois are not the only ones criticizing the reform.
Last week, other parties were as vehement in their criticism of
the government's attitude in dipping into the employment
insurance fund to wipe away its deficit, which was very
dishonest and showed its disdain for the public.
The minister does not want to rush into any hasty decisions. I
understand, it is worth his while not to. When a government is
accumulating a surplus of $6 billion every year, there is no
need to worry about the deficit, because the employment
insurance fund is right there to dip into. Taxes could have
been raised, but we are wise to the game the Minister of Human
Resources Development and the government in general are playing.
We are wise to them. They did not want to be unpopular, there
they were with a smile on their faces.
They paid down the deficit and now they can walk with their
heads held high as a result. But I would not be so proud of
myself, knowing that thousands of people are no longer eligible
for employment insurance.
The minister's response to the Bloc Quebecois bills is that they
are no solution that will help the unemployed to get back in the
work force. My response to that is that we are concerned for the
workers in transition, the ones who are short of weeks for
employment insurance, the women who are not qualified for
maternity benefits.
My response as well is that we are very concerned about a
solution that encourages people to go directly onto welfare.
That is the path the present Liberal government is pointing
people to. We know this costs millions of dollars, $845 million
in Quebec and $1.6 billion in the rest of Canada.
This means $2.5 billion downloaded onto the provinces.
As we know, the Canada social transfer was cut by $42 billion
instead of $48 billion. This is what the minister calls giving
provinces money back for health care. We call it cutting less
than previously announced. The minister had announced $48
billion in cuts and he cut only $42 billion. He was able to be
this generous thanks to the employment insurance fund. He did
not even have the honesty to show his true colours, and say what
he really intended to do.
The unemployment insurance reform was aimed at revitalizing the
job market, and what do we see? Thousands of workers in
vulnerable jobs on the fringe of the labour market are being
excluded. This is a disaster. It is estimated that only one out
of four young workers between the ages of 20 and 24 qualifies
for employment insurance benefits.
And then there are women. The minister gives us simplistic
answers. He does not even have statistics to back them up. He
tells us it is due to the birth rate. Then can he explain why
maternity benefits dropped by 6% while the birth rate dropped by
only 1%? The discrepancy is obvious.
I deplore the bad faith of the Minister of Human Resources
Development, who enjoys reading his files, but has very few
concrete measures to offer. The Bloc Quebecois has worked very
hard to find solutions and make the reform easier on the
unemployed. But obviously the government has no intention of
backing off.
1230
The people will judge it on its accomplishments. We know how the
former Minister of Human Resources Development was voted out of
office. He lost his seat because his reform was too harsh on the
least fortunate.
I am asking the government once more, as we did on the human
resources development committee, to review the whole issue of
the reform; hopefully the employment insurance week will give it
cause for reflection.
Mrs. Maud Debien (Laval East, BQ): Mr. Speaker, recently, the
Minister of Human Resources Development said rather suavely if
not innocently “We no longer have a deficit in Canada, which
means that the poor families are now richer.”
Yvon Deschamps, a renowned stand-up comic in Quebec, once said
“It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick.” I do
not know if the Minister of Human Resources Development is
trying to compete with Mr. Deschamps, but with statements like
that one, he is succeeding.
In other words, what the minister is telling us is that, thanks
to the tightening of the employment insurance program, poor
families are getting richer. Since this Liberal government was
elected in 1993, there are 500,000 more people living below the
poverty line in Canada. We cannot hope to solve the problem with
the poverty insurance system we just talked about—because it is
not an employment insurance system, but really a poverty
insurance scheme.
Poverty insurance will particularly affect one category of
workers, pregnant women. For these women, it will become
increasingly difficult to qualify for maternity benefits. The
hon. member for Québec touched on that issue and I would like
her to answer my question.
What will happen to pregnant women whose access to maternity
benefits and special benefits in general, like maternity leave,
sick leave and adoption leave, will be reduced?
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon: Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for
her question. Indeed the minister's statement is shameful. He is
telling us that we are richer because the deficit has been
eliminated.
We know now where the money that was used to eliminate the
deficit came from. It came from the employment insurance fund,
which is essential to help the unemployed find a job at a time
when jobs are precarious and to give them a minimum income so
they do not have to go on welfare.
One and a half million poor children in Canada is nothing to be
thrilled about. One and a half million poor children also means
poor parents. I do not know if the minister can see the
relationship between poor children and poor parents.
Women are also very affected by this reform.
We know now that, with the reform, a woman must accumulate twice
as many hours to become eligible for maternity benefits and EI
special benefits.
The minister's answer to that is that the fertility rate has
dropped. Even though the fertility rate has dropped, do special
benefits not also include parental, adoption and sickness
benefits? There has been a substantial decrease in these
benefits in 1997. Will the minister tell me that people are sick
because the fertility rate is lower? I do not know what his
answer will be. He will certainly come up with another
farfetched answer.
We have spoken out against these kinds of things and will
continue to do so. This will definitely not encourage young
couples to have children.
We know that the minister's reform is not adapted to the job
market because young women have unstable part time jobs and do
not have any strong ties to the job market. Those are the things
that we denounce.
We hope the Minister of Human Resources Development will finally
see the light and will be more human and more realistic in this
reform that particularly affects the unemployed, women and young
people.
1235
[English]
Mr. Wayne Easter (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Fisheries and Oceans, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's
motion talks about the disastrous effects of reform of the
employment insurance system. What disastrous effects?
As I reviewed last week's Hansard and listened to the
speakers opposite today, it is obvious the hon. members opposite
have been trying to raise people's fears, trying to manufacture
disaster where none exists. Instead of assisting people to use
the programs available they are agitating complaints.
I will speak in a moment of a few of the programs available
under the system. The first speaker opposite spoke of the EI
scandal, so-called, alleging that the government is taking over
funds of workers. That is not the case at all. When the
government first came to power there was a major deficit in terms
of the unemployment insurance fund. We have set up the system so
that we are sure there is an investment there in the future, that
there is a fund we can go to in the future that will protect
workers in the future. That is good management to ensure there
is a system available to workers in the future so that employment
insurance premiums do not have to be raised should we get into a
downturn in the economy.
Employment insurance reform is helping Canadians get back into
the workforce. We are accomplishing this through a number of
direct initiatives. This is a reasonable reform package. This
is a compassionate reform package that is clearly in the best
interests of all Canadian workers.
Unlike the old passive UI system, the system the Bloc would have
us return to, employment insurance is a proactive approach to
supporting and encouraging Canadians to stay in the labour market
as long as possible. That is why employment insurance combines
income support with effective active re-employment measures.
Employment insurance rewards people who work. It invests in
people who are prepared to invest in themselves. Taken together,
employment insurance measures are fair and balanced.
Let us consider some of those programs. Let us consider the
five active re-employment measures for a moment, the first being
targeted wage subsidies. The Government of Canada contributes
part of a person's wage and that enables employers to hire
claimants or former claimants who receive valuable on the job
experience. In 1996-97 this measure helped some 9,000
individuals.
For those with an entrepreneurial spirit we provide
self-employment assistance. This measure, and I believe it is
one of the better programs under the system, provides claimants
with financial support and planning assistance to help them get a
viable business off the ground. In 1996-97 this measure assisted
over 13,000 entrepreneurs in starting their own business.
The government believes in proactive collaboration so we have
job creation partnerships where we work with the provinces and
the territories, the private sector, labour and community groups.
Together we develop projects that do two things, generate new job
opportunities for unemployed Canadians and enhance the local
economy. In 1996-97 job creation partnerships assisted over
18,000 workers.
We are also piloting targeted earnings supplements that top up a
claimant's wages for a short time. This active re-employment
measure encourages the person to take work that pays less than
their previous job. It is an effective way of helping them make
a transition back into the workforce and find permanent work.
The fifth active re-employment measure is called skills, loans
and grants. It offers training to upgrade people skills by
helping with fees for study courses and living expenses. Training
is now a provincial responsibility. So this measure is delivered
by the provinces through labour market development agreements
with the Government of Canada.
Those five programs help people get work and have active
re-employment measures to help them get back into the labour
force. Employment insurance reform is generating savings of $800
million that the government will reinvest annually in these
measures.
1240
I can assure the hon. member that the effects will not be
disastrous. They will be highly beneficial to Canadian workers
and to the Canadian economy and to Quebeckers and the Quebec
economy.
For 1998-99 Quebec will receive $5.3 million for active measures
that will go toward helping workers in the hon. member's
province. No one can accuse this government of short changing
Quebeckers. But by golly members opposite, in terms of their
fearmongering and their separatist rabble-rousing with their
misleading information, are killing the economy. They are
causing the loss of jobs. Instead of recognizing the programs
available and talking about them in Quebec and showing people how
they can utilize them to get back into the force, they are out
there with their separatist leanings which are killing the very
economy we are trying to improve.
The hon. member's motion says that employment insurance does not
have the capacity to adapt to the new realities of the labour
market. With all due respect, the member is wrong again. He
should try telling that to a woman in Chicoutimi or in the riding
of the member for Acadie—Bathurst who works 14 hours in a
department store before becoming unemployed. Under the old UI
system that the member for Acadie—Bathurst supports as well she
was just plain out of luck because none of her work was
insurable. Under the new hours based system, after 30 weeks of
work she will qualify for employment insurance benefits. What is
more, under the hours based system women working part time are
now eligible for maternity benefits.
They say it is not adaptable to the labour market. Try telling
that to the 270,000 women now covered by employment insurance for
the first time in their lives. And yes, mothers who left the
workforce to stay home and raise their children and who now want
to return to work are eligible for active re-employment measures.
That is being adaptable and that is looking to the future.
The hon. member says employment insurance reforms are tough on
youth. No, they are not. They are designed to discourage young
people from throwing their lives away by leaving school before
they have completed their education.
Do hon. members opposite want to encourage young Quebeckers and
young New Brunswickers to throw away their lives by dropping out
of school and ending up on the treadmill of short term work
followed by employment insurance income? I should think not, but
their speeches lead me to believe otherwise. That is certainly
not what the Government of Canada wants.
That is why we have the youth employment strategy to break that
cycle. That is why we brought in the Canadian opportunities
strategy to further provide young men and women with the
opportunity to pursue their education and thus improve their
chances of finding employment.
The objective, in case the hon. members do not get it, is not to
see how many young people we can put on to employment insurance
but how many we can find meaningful employment and long term work
for.
What about seasonal workers? Employment insurance is there for
seasonal workers. Again, the basic premise of employment
insurance is to encourage workers to continue to work as long as
possible. We wanted to discourage people from falling into the
old habit of using employment insurance as an income supplement.
That is what created dependency on unemployment insurance. It is
too early to get the complete picture but it appears that workers
are finding extra weeks of employment needed to qualify for
benefits.
When we saw there was a flaw in the system in terms of the short
weeks, we on this side instead of ranting and raving about it put
in place pilot projects to ensure that those short weeks would
not hurt workers and that the program would be there for those in
the seasonal industries.
1245
Unlike members opposite, we on this side are moving forward to
ensure that the system is in place for the workers in the future,
that there is investment so that we have the kind of program and
social safety net the workforce so direly believes in.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, my colleague has criticized my talking about a
scandal.
I quote a sentence from two of the five studies released on the
1994 evaluation “For example, a woman working in the fishing
industry and a man in forestry would have each received an
average of 25 weeks of benefits a year before the new system.
After the bill, the number of weeks was reduced to 20. The
effects of Bill C-17 were therefore disproportionate in provinces
and industries relying most heavily on the insurance system”.
Another study, this time ordered by the government, noted “We
have concluded that Bill C-17 has caused a 20.7% reduction in
benefits paid out, essentially because of shorter qualifying
periods”.
These are two scandalous effects of the 1994 reform in which the
Liberals, three months after an election campaign in which they
talked about moving forward and never repeating Conservative
strategies. Their results were worse than those of the
Conservatives.
I would therefore say to the hon. member in conclusion that he
does not know what he is talking about on the subject of active
measures. These measures were transferred to the provinces for
the good of all Quebeckers and Canadians, because this way they
might be effective.
[English]
Mr. Wayne Easter: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the question.
Again as with so much of what the member opposite said
previously, he has it wrong. He is interested in raising fears
and talking about disaster. The hon. member has heard this before
but I think maybe he should hear it again.
The Government of Canada under this new system, under the labour
market development agreements will invest $2.7 billion over five
years to enable his province to deliver active re-employment
measures. Those are measures designed to get people back to work
and into the labour force.
I again want to emphasize that one of the reasons why we have to
make that investment is that the separatist leanings across the
way are killing the economy and driving people out of the
province. They are raising unemployment.
Let me say that figure one more time. The Government of Canada
will invest $2.5 billion over five years to enable the province
of Quebec to deliver active re-employment measures.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, my
question will be very brief. I wonder if my friend can tell
workers and employers where the $15 billion EI fund is. Is it in
a vault somewhere? Is it invested? What exactly has happened to
that $15 billion fund? I think workers and employers would like
to know that it is stored away safely.
Mr. Wayne Easter: Mr. Speaker, there is no question that
this government has shown how credible it is in dealing with the
finances of the nation.
Members can be assured that with this government and our
Minister of Finance in control the money is going to be there in
the future for those workers who need it. We see it as an
investment. When we came to power there was something like a $6
billion deficit in terms of the unemployment insurance fund at
that time. As a result, premiums were going up under the former
Tory administration. We were able to bring them down and still
have surplus funds in the EI fund to be there to protect workers'
interests in the future. That is good management by this
government.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, it is too bad
my question has to be short because I could say a lot on this
subject. My colleague spoke about Quebec separating, but I can
guarantee one thing: New Brunswick has no plans to separate, but
it does have problems.
The member speaks of part time employees working 14 hours. How
does he explain the fact that fewer than 40% of workers qualify
for employment insurance? All the others were cut off
employment insurance, because of the government.
1250
I will close on this question. How does he explain that, before
the election, his government said that changes to employment
insurance would spell disaster for New Brunswick and, now that
it is in power, it has made them?
[English]
Mr. Wayne Easter: Mr. Speaker, the member's figure of 40%
is slightly off base. In terms of his province, New Brunswick,
the figure is actually 75%. It shows that the system is working
for him. Instead of burying our heads in the sand, we have tried
to put a system in place that gives people the skills and the
opportunity to get back into the workforce rather than to the
continue the cycle of being on EI and using it as an income
supplement.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it
is a pleasure to rise today to address the motion from the Bloc
Quebecois. Because time is so limited I will try to focus on one
aspect of this motion. I wish to address the aspect of the EI
fund.
A couple of minutes ago I asked my friend a very direct question
about the EI fund. I said that I hoped the government had stored
away this money very carefully and that workers and employers who
have contributed more than $15 billion into the fund, which is
more than they have received back in benefits, would want to know
that it had been stored away very safely, that it had been
invested and put away in a vault somewhere. My friend provided
an answer that was a little evasive, a little less than direct.
My friend said in his speech that the government has been
ensuring that the EI fund is there so that we can go into the
future, or some bromide like that.
The EI fund is a myth. The EI fund does not exist in any real
way. There is no fund. It is a fairy tale. It is not exactly
one of the brothers Grimm fairy tales but it is a very grim fairy
tale. Just like leprechauns, unicorns and the fairies of the
woods, the EI fund does not exist. It never has existed.
We have a situation where the government runs around telling
people “If we mandate that money is taken off your cheques and
sent to us, it will go into some fund”. It is very much like
the Bre-X disaster of a couple of years ago. Somebody told people
“Invest in our company. We have millions of dollars of gold
reserves in the jungles of Indonesia that we will soon be drawing
upon. We just need a little money to get it out of the ground.
Pretty soon it will all come back to you”.
Just like the Indonesian goldfields, the EI fund is a myth. It
does not exist. There is a note in the consolidated revenue
fund, an IOU to the workers and employers who have contributed to
this fund. A $15 billion IOU.
My friend who was talking in a rather evasive way about the fund
should be more direct and admit that the EI fund does not exist.
There is no money in there. People who have been paying into it
for years and years have been misled. We see this happening often
in a government that is armed with the ability to tax and to
spend.
We see it as well in things like the Canada pension plan. For
years people were led to believe that all the money they paid in
premiums was going into an account and it was building up for
their retirement, only to find out that it was being lent to the
provinces at below market rates of interest and there really was
not any money. We see it happening with the federal
superannuation pension fund.
Whenever there is a fund of money, the federal government cannot
wait to get its greedy little fingers on it. No matter where it
came from, no matter under what premise it was taken from people,
in the end it never ever uses it for the purpose it was supposed
to be used for. This is another example of that.
1255
Where did the $15 billion go? It is a great mystery.
An hon. member: Indonesia.
Mr. Monte Solberg: Perhaps, who knows? Maybe it went to
Italy. We do not know.
All we know is that it went into the consolidated revenue fund.
We also know that the government is proposing to spend another
$11 billion in the next few years. So we have a situation where
the money that has allegedly come into the EI fund does not
exist. We also know the government is going to spend $11 billion
in the next few years.
We can only conclude that money is going to all kinds of things
that workers and employers did not ask for and do not want. The
government says “We have a better idea. We will spend it for you
because we think we know better”. It speaks to the government's
unspoken assumption that people do not know as well as the
government does how to spend taxpayers' money.
We have a situation now where the government is going to start
to spend this money away. I would argue this is wrong headed. It
is a much better approach to say to employers and employees “Why
do we not allow you to run this fund? Why do we not take this
fund off budget? Why do we not get workers and employers to
decide between them which is the appropriate level of premiums to
pay and what are the right benefits to pay”.
Ultimately there will be a system where both parties will have
their vested interests at the table and they will come up with a
compromise that will somehow suit both parties. That system is
in place in other countries so we think it is a very plausible
way to go. We would argue that if we did that we would have a
fund that would actually be there for people when they need to
draw upon it.
My friends would say that in the past the government has
honoured its IOUs. Fair enough. But in this case, if we go into
a recession in the next couple of months, if as an example the
economy suddenly turned down because the Asian crisis hits Canada
in a hard way, we would be in the situation that because the
government did not prudently set aside the $15 billion, we would
have to go $15 billion into the hole. We would have to start
running deficits once again. That is the effect of not putting
that money aside.
Who would pay to get out of that deficit hole again? It would
be the workers and employers because as the government has done
over the last four years, it would raise taxes to get out of the
deficit. We would see workers and employers paying twice to get
out of the soup.
We argue that instead of perpetuating the myth that there is a
fund, as my friend did a few minutes ago, why not be honest with
Canadians? Why not tell them that the money has been spent away?
Why not resolve not to do it again by setting up a separate
account, hiving it from the actual budget and letting employers
and employees run the account themselves? That would be a much
better plan.
There is another issue associated with this. The other day the
finance minister was before the finance committee. Regrettably I
was unable to be there. He spoke about the EI surplus and was
asked some questions about it. One thing he said which was
rather strange was that cutting EI premiums would not create
jobs. I found that very strange. When the government cut EI
premiums by so very little a few months ago, it issued a press
release in which it said that cutting EI premiums would create
jobs.
Which way is it? Does the finance minister believe that cutting
EI premiums will create jobs as he said a couple of months ago,
or is he saying now that it will not, as he said on Thursday?
The government should make up its mind. One day it will create
jobs, the next day it will not create jobs. The finance minister
better talk to some of the people in his own department and get
it straight.
Canadians want to see some cuts to EI premiums.
I think they have made that very clear. We know the Canadian
Federation of Independent Business has been after the government
for years. We know that the Reform Party has been after the
government for years. We ran in the election campaign on
lowering EI premiums. The finance minister had better get his
act together and quit trying to engage in this type of
doublespeak where he tells what he thinks they want to hear at
different times.
1300
The government has perpetuated the myth for a long time that
this fund is solvent with billions of dollars in it and it will
be there when it is needed in the event of a recession. That is
clearly not the case. I hope my friends across the way would
quit perpetuating this myth, as my friend from Prince Edward
Island did a couple of minutes ago, and start to give Canadians
the honest truth. Only then when we have the complete truth will
we all be able to sit down together like adults and solve these
problems.
Mr. Robert D. Nault (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Human Resources Development, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I find it
somewhat ironic that the member would stand today after a very
successful convention in London where it was decided to reform
the party into change. Obviously the old Reform Party which has
been around for 10 years was not working very well so now it is
in the process of changing.
Based on that I want to get the new Reform Party on record on
where it stands on this issue. The member wants to know whether
there is such a thing as an EI account. We know there is an EI
account because we know by law that this fund is set up to help
unemployed workers through active measures, benefits and a
combination of income support when people are laid off. There
are also some active measures to help people find jobs because
the economy is changing very rapidly and those changes were
needed.
Most economists on Bay Street say the number one choice in
making cuts to put more money in people's pockets is to cut
personal income tax, not to cut EI premiums. EI premiums have a
very limited effect and the majority, except for one NDP
economist in the Globe and Mail, suggested that premium
cuts are the way to go.
Even though the government has cut premiums substantially, they
were rising to $3.30 under the Tories, they are now down to
$2.70. The government is on target to reduce premiums more this
year. I want the member to be aware of two things.
There is an independent commission that does review it. It has
representatives of labour and employers. It makes
recommendations to the minister of human resources and to the
Minister of Finance. The member was incorrect in that. There is
such a commission today.
Which is the new Reform Party's position on this issue?
Mr. Monte Solberg: Madam Speaker, I point out to the
member that the Reform Party has done fairly well. It did
displace eight Liberals in the west in the last election. The
old Reform Party functioned fairly effectively as well as the new
Reform Party does, as the member puts it.
It is safe to say Reformers believe very strongly that we need
to reduce EI premiums. That was part of our election platform in
the 1997 election. We also point out the government should hold
the line on spending instead of engaging in $11 billion in new
spending initiatives and cooking the books to try to run up a big
surplus. If it would hold the line it would find it would have
ample money to both reduce EI premiums and reduce personal income
taxes and to start the process of paying down Canada's behemoth
debt of $583 billion. Being a little disciplined opens up a world
of options for the government.
Mr. Wayne Easter (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Fisheries and Oceans, Lib.): Madam Speaker, the member talked
about the EI fund being a myth. He cannot have it both ways.
On one hand the member says the fund does not exist and on the
other he says the government will defend it.
1305
In terms of government spending on this EI fund for the benefit
of future employment, what is the member's view on the
re-employment measures and the active measures and the millions
of dollars we are spending to get people back to work?
Mr. Monte Solberg: Madam Speaker, I thank my friend
across the way for the question.
Of course there is a line somewhere in the budget that says
employment insurance account, but it is empty. My friend knows
it. It is the actual account itself, the money in it, that is
the myth. There is no money there.
My friend suggested there are various types of programs. I think
he called them partnerships and strategies. I think sometimes
the strategies are tragedies because we know very well that after
30 years of all types of strategies and partnerships and all
kinds of programs unemployment is chronic in many parts of the
country. We know in Atlantic Canada we have unemployment in some
cases of 20%.
I simply ask in return how well have these worked, all these
strategies and partnerships that have left us with 20%
unemployment.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Madam Speaker, I rise today
to express my support for the motion moved by the member for
Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, castigating the
government:
—for the catastrophic effects of its reforms to unemployment
insurance; for having taken over funds destined for unemployed
persons; and for its inability to adapt the unemployment
insurance system to the new realities of the labour market,
particularly where young people, women, and self-employed persons
are concerned.
The EI reforms are proof that the Liberal government is not
listening to the Canadian people. Overly stringent eligibility
criteria have condemned thousands of unemployed workers to
poverty.
My colleague across the way boasted that now a woman working 14
hours in an industry qualifies for EI. But he kept quiet about
the fact that fewer than 40% of workers are now eligible. That
was not mentioned.
He did not mention that my predecessor, Doug Young, won the
election by saying that the changes made by the Conservatives
had been a disaster for New Brunswick. Today, New Brunswick's
premier, Camille Thériault, says that the province lost over
$125 million annually.
The Liberals proudly tell us that they do want to encourage
young people to go on EI. The fact of the matter is that,
instead of EI, the young people in my region are now turning to
welfare, with benefits at $200 a month. That is the reality in
my riding.
Countless times, I have invited the Minister of Human Resources
Development to come and see our young people. He has always
declined. Over and over, New Brunswick's Liberal ministers,
Camille H. Thériault, Jean-Camille DeGrâce and Bernard Thériault,
have denounced the federal government for taking money out of
workers' pockets. They are all from the same party, all
Liberals.
Overly tough EI eligibility criteria have driven thousands of
workers into poverty. Fewer than 40% of this country's
unemployed workers are drawing benefits right now.
This means that, in April 1998, almost 780,000 unemployed
workers were denied access to their own program. It is there
for them, not to help the Minister of Finance pay down the debt.
He has no claim on it whatsoever.
1310
I was sorry this morning when I realized that the Liberal member
from PEI still has not got the message from Atlantic Canada; he
may be the next one to be shown the door, because in Nova Scotia
they got rid of all the Liberals, while in New Brunswick they
dumped some senior ministers such as Doug Young.
The Liberals must see the reality that prevails in the Atlantic
provinces, the Gaspé Peninsula, northern Manitoba, northern
Ontario and northern Alberta. They must see what is really going
on in the country. We have a job problem. The government will
not solve it by punishing families.
When the Liberals were canvassing during the election campaign,
they did not tell people “We will make families suffer”. This is
not what they said.
Perhaps the members opposite who are laughing do so because they
do not have in their ridings people who are starving and who
shoot themselves in the head. They say we must not scare people.
But this is what goes on in our ridings.
The Liberals may laugh all they want, but this is the reality
they created in this country. They took a measure which they had
opposed when the Conservatives were in office. Indeed, when the
Conservatives formed the government, the Liberals were telling
Canadians from coast to coast that all these changes to the
employment insurance program would be disastrous for workers.
Now, they have the nerve to come and tell the public “We are
lowering the debt”.
The member referred to the 400,000 people who got help, but
there are 780,000 who no longer qualify. How can he have the
nerve to rise in this House and say such things? This is
absolutely shameful.
Some workers are being told “We will take money out of your
contributions so that when you do not have a job, you can get
one”. Then, there are employers who fire employees for
absolutely no reason and these employees do not qualify for
employment insurance even though they have contributed for
years. How can the hon. member claim that this is a good
program?
How can the Liberal member from Prince Edward Island, in
Atlantic Canada, dare talk the way he did this morning? This is
truly shameful. He should pack his things and go home. I am
convinced he will when the next election is held. People in
Atlantic Canada and in Kapuskasing who elected Liberals will not
forget.
Their problems are the same. Nobody is begging not to work.
In my own area, companies that set up shop and needed, say, 200
workers got thousands of applications. How can the government
turn around and suggest employment insurance makes people
dependent? How dare it say things like that?
It really is a shame that the government should take the
workers' money through the back door to pay down the debt. It
should be ashamed to use their money to balance the budget. This
is shameful. And the only thing our Reform Party friends can
think of is lowering the contributions.
I have never seen workers take to the streets to demand lower
contributions.
But I did see workers, unemployed people along with priests and
bishops in the streets condemning the federal government because
what it is doing is wrong. I did see the whole community in the
streets during the election campaign, on May 2, 1997, when 5,000
people stood in front of the UI office in Bathurst with priests
and bishops with them.
We even had priests telling the faithful in their churches they
should participate in these demonstrations because it was their
duty and our families are suffering. These demonstrations did
occur. What the federal government is doing with the employment
insurance is shameful and totally unacceptable. And then it has
the gall to tell us the opposition is short of ideas and is not
talking about jobs.
I keep talking about jobs every day. I keep telling the federal
government, which is responsible for this, that we should keep
our fish and process and reprocess it ourselves.
I keep saying that we should process and reprocess our wood
locally.
Every day I say that we should process and reprocess our
blueberries, to make jams or other products.
1315
As long as I am in this House, I will not accept without raising
my voice that the government should steal money from workers to
pay for the national debt and to balance the budget. I will
never do so. I challenge any Liberal member in this House to
stand and say how nice the government is toward workers. This is
a real shame.
The Liberals do not even deserve to be here. They were elected
by human beings to whom they cause hardship every day: women,
children, fathers, entire families are suffering.
The Liberals should be ashamed and should not even stand to ask
questions, because they have doomed Canadians to poverty. This
is what they have done. My colleague from Prince Edward Island
should be ashamed of the way he talked today. He certainly does
not know where his roots are.
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Madam Speaker, I want to congratulate the hon. member for
Acadie—Bathurst on his speech. He described what life is really
for the people in theirs regions. I congratulate him
particularly because the Liberal majority wanted to blame this
on us, to make it an issue concerning sovereignists, separatists
who do not believe in Canada.
That is not the case. This is a matter of social justice and
that is what it is all about.
In support of what he said, I will read from a letter dated
February 17, 1993. I will read you one paragraph and let you
guess who signed this letter:
In my opinion, it is unacceptable for the people of Canada to
continue in this disastrous direction and further penalize the
victims of this recession. Things will change after the people
have had a chance to vote in the 1993 election.
I am sure that a new team with new approaches and directions
will help Canadians regain the confidence and hope they have
lost because of the present government.
This statement was made with respect to the Conservative
employment insurance bill.
Who signed this letter? Who said it was unacceptable and things
would change after the election? The current Prime Minister of
Canada. This letter exists. It is available. It confirms what
the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst said.
Is it not a fact that the federal government unilaterally
decided to break the agreement between source and manufacturing
regions in Quebec and Canada? Some sort of an agreement had been
in place for more than 25 or 30 years.
Source regions supplied primary resources and the philosophy was
to provide an employment insurance plan ensuring a good income
the rest of the year because it helped create jobs,
manufacturing jobs, year round in larger centres. All workers
understood the need for this kind of solidarity.
With its successive EI reforms limiting duration of payments and
eligibility, did the Liberal government not call into question
this agreement between all regions of Quebec and Canada?
Mr. Yvon Godin: Madam Speaker, as my colleague has just
mentioned in quoting the letter, my predecessor, Doug Young, did
the same thing to Inkerman, New Brunswick, before 1993. He told
700 people in a room there “If you elect me, I will fight on
your behalf. I will fight on your behalf for employment
insurance, because otherwise it will be disastrous for New
Brunswick”. He sounded like the current Prime Minister.
You must understand that people at home do not want to be on
employment insurance. They want to work. But what happens?
With the cuts to EI, people stop receiving benefits in January
and end up in the so-called black hole. They get $165 a week
before taxes, which amounts to $135. No one on the other side
of the House can live on so little.
My colleague on the other side of the House who is shouting
should have been here earlier to hear my speech. He should be
ashamed to be in this House.
1320
Doug Young cut UI and he was shown the door. The Liberals then
rewarded him with $6 million for the highway between Fredericton
and Moncton. That is what the Liberals did. That is what they
are bragging about.
The Prime Minister was not saying during the election “You need
Doug Young in Ottawa” He said “I need Doug Young in Ottawa” To
do what? To make cuts like those he made in transport,
employment insurance and national defence. That is what we were
left with.
At home the jobs are seasonal, whereas in the rest of the
country there is much more manufacturing. However, if they
decided to set up some plants in our region today,
I challenge my colleague opposite from Prince Edward Island to
tell us whether our people are lazy and do-nothings, as our
colleague Doug Young has described them. Let him stand up and
tell the people back home what the Liberals said about them.
[English]
Mr. Jean Dubé (Madawaska—Restigouche, PC): Madam
Speaker, it is certainly a pleasure for me to rise today on this
very important issue that we have been debating from day one in
committee and in the House of Commons.
[Translation]
The motion before the House today is very important for the
regions affected. I listened carefully to my colleague from
Acadie—Bathurst, who said what people are feeling. It is
interesting to see the effect of his speech in the House,
because people's feelings are just as he described.
I would also like to comment on the motion moved by the member
for Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques.
I moved a motion at the human resources committee's first
meeting on October 21, 1997. I moved that the committee review
the changes made to the unemployment insurance program to assess
their impact on Canadians and make recommendations to the
government on how to make the EI program fairer for all workers.
I had the support of every opposition party and even some
government members. My motion was defeated by six votes to five.
It was very close. On the government side there are also some
concerns. People are suffering.
[English]
Why I brought this motion so early into committee after
elections at the first committee is because it was urgent. People
in Atlantic Canada and some other regions of Canada through the
reform to the unemployment insurance act are suffering. It is
not that we want employment insurance. People want to work.
The Liberal reform to EI has created much hardship among
Canadians who are most in need, who are unable to defend
themselves. That is why they elected us.
We saw on June 2 what Atlantic Canadians said. I think it was
very clear. They elected mostly Tories in New Brunswick. There
are not very many Liberals I do not think. I heard comments from
the hon. member from P.E.I. a while ago. I am really surprised
that it is coming from Atlantic Canada. I am sure that he has
citizens in his riding who are suffering from the employment
insurance reform.
I hope they heard what he said and I hope they remember what he
said.
1325
We have to come up with a strategy. Our party has been lobbying
from day one to reduce EI premiums. That is a solution for job
creation. These people do not want unemployment. They want
jobs. One of the problems is that there are barriers to job
creation.
EI premiums are a tax on jobs. We have been asking questions of
the finance minister since day one. I believe it was my first
question in the House of Commons. We called the Liberals
pickpockets. It was not considered unparliamentary after it was
analysed. This is a way to create jobs and to get people off
unemployment and off welfare.
The hon. member said a while ago that if people are not on
unemployment they will find jobs. In some regions of Canada they
are on welfare. Believe me, that is not too appetising when we
consider the fact that in order to get a job in today's economy
one must have a good education. In order to get a good education
one has to have money. If people do not have money they cannot
get a good education and they will not get a job. These people
are behind the eight-ball and will be there for a while.
The Progressive Conservative Party of Canada has been calling
for the federal government to reduce EI premiums from $2.70 to $2
per $100 of insurable earnings. We have been saying that since
day one. Even the government's chief actuary agrees that the EI
fund would maintain a sustainable surplus with the kind of EI
premium cuts that we are proposing. If the government does not
take our word for it, it can at least take the word of the chief
actuary.
The Canadian Federation of Independent Business has long opposed
the government's tax grab on the EI surplus. The Minister of
Finance points smugly to what he likes to describe as a happy
economy. In that happy economy is some facts he chooses not to
mention. I will mention a few he does not wish to mention.
Per capita personal income is down after inflation and taxes are
taken into account. We do not hear anything about that. The
number of Canadians living below the poverty line has risen under
the Liberals. Those living below the poverty line are in a
deeper hole than in 1993. We do not hear the government bragging
about that. Canadians are saving less of their take home pay
while taking on more debt. Once again, we do not hear the
government bragging about that.
We hear government members saying that the Tories were there
before and it was over $3. It is a broken record. It is
certainly not helping today's citizens. If I were to go back to
1971 when Pierre Trudeau was here, what would it do for today's
society? It would not do anything. It is certainly not
creative.
Members will be interested to hear that more Canadians went
bankrupt last year than ever before. We have not heard about
that. We do not hear the Minister of Finance stating that. Some
85,000 Canadians declared personal bankruptcy last year. This is
unacceptable.
Canadians want to work. They do not want EI. Until we are able
to remove the barriers to job creation we have to protect the
people who are going through difficult periods, people with
families. It is our responsibility as legislators, as members of
parliament, to protect all Canadians. In times of trouble and in
difficult times it is up to us to bring the issue to this floor
and to protect them. We must treat them equitably and fairly.
When we look at Atlantic Canada, we look at the fisheries and we
look at the wood industry. We have seasonal workers in Atlantic
Canada. The reform to the Employment Insurance Act is certainly
not providing for them. I wonder how government members would
feel fishing on top of six feet of ice. They just cannot do it.
1330
These people have to be protected. People cutting wood for the
paper we are writing on here certainly cannot cut that wood in
the winter with over six feet of snow. These people have to be
protected. There seems to be nothing there for them at all but
hardship.
[Translation]
Young people also are hurt by the employment insurance and by
unemployment. Their jobless rate is twice the national average.
It is truly incredible.
I have this to say to young Canadians who are out of work: since
youth unemployment is only part of the larger problem of
joblessness in Canada, there will be no viable solution to deal
with youth unemployment as long as there is no lasting economic
growth and development. We have a lot to do before young
Canadians can become full members of our society. This is also
why I moved that motion then.
Today I am happy to speak to the motion by my colleague from the
Bloc Quebecois.
In my riding there is an association called Future Street
People. Can you believe this, future street people. We asked to
meet with the minister. He turned us down.
I strongly believe we can solve this problem, but we have to
work together. In the meantime, we must protect people in need.
Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière, BQ): Madam Speaker, I will be
sharing my time with my hon. colleague from Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot.
I am very pleased today to join with my colleagues from the Bloc
Quebecois in decrying the unacceptable behaviour of the Liberal
government.
Even if the Prime Minister likes to think of himself as a great
international diplomat and a great democrat, since the beginning
of the year he has been acting like a political dictator. All of
the government decisions are centralized and made at the office
of “the little guy from Shawinigan”, who is becoming more like a
boy scout from Bay Street, in Toronto.
The Prime Minister is totally disconnected from the reality in
Canada and in Quebec. We all know his position about the
millennium scholarships fund. We know it is an unprecedented
violation of an exclusive area of provincial jurisdiction.
We know about his position concerning the hepatitis C victims.
I will never forget the shame I read on the face of several of
my colleagues opposite when they had to vote against sick
people. Why? Because the Prime Minister had ordered them to do
so. They were forced to vote against their own conscience.
And what about his reforms to employment insurance? I say “his
reforms”, because every decision is made by his own office. Last
week, my colleagues, and in particular the hon. member for
Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, with experts and
former recipients, considered the negative impact of the
employment insurance, which has become the poverty insurance.
Poverty insurance for our young people: one young worker in four
is eligible for benefits, while, in 1990, three young workers in
four who paid employment insurance premiums were eligible. That
is possibly what the Liberals call the new youth employment
strategy.
Poverty insurance for pregnant women: several of them are no
longer eligible.
Nice way to promote the family.
Poverty insurance for seasonal workers in areas such as
construction, fishing, agriculture, truck crop harvesting and
many others.
I have tried to find something positive in this reform. I have
looked again and again, but I have not found anything yet.
The time has come to bring back on the right track the Prime
Minister and the Minister of Finance, who are using the
employment insurance fund surplus as they see fit without giving
any consideration to the real needs of workers.
I am proud to add my voice to those of my colleagues from the
Bloc Quebecois who are in touch with the people of Quebec and
who are not afraid to stand up for the most disadvantaged in our
society.
1335
I am adding my voice to theirs in condemning the Liberal
government for the disastrous effects of the unemployment
insurance reform and for what Ontario Premier Mike Harris has
called theft, speaking about the use of the employment insurance
fund surplus that comes from contributions paid by employers and
employees.
The Bloc Quebecois also condemns the federal Liberals, namely
the Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance and those who hold
the power in this increasingly centralizing government, for
their inability to adapt the employment insurance program to the
new realities of our society, particularly with regard to young
people, women and independent workers.
I would like to talk about another problem stemming from this
infamous reform, namely the fact that the Department of Human
Resources Development has been fiddling with designated areas
since the 1996 reform. The changes that were made penalize the
majority of rural and semi-urban areas in Quebec.
Let us take, for example, my riding of Lotbinière. With this
geographic gymnastics, we end up with two regional unemployment
rates: one at 6% and the other at 11.4%.
In everyday life, this means that a worker who lives in
Leclerville, in the Lotbinière RCM, where the unemployment rate
is at 6%, has to work 700 hours to be eligible for 14 weeks of
EI benefits, while another worker living a few kilometres away
in Parisville, in the Bécancour RCM, an area where unemployment
stands at 11.4%, has to work only 490 hours to get EI benefits
for 22 weeks.
Try explaining that to the unemployed. It is sheer nonsense.
The Mouvement des sans-emploi de Lotbinière has made numerous
representations to the human resources development department,
but nobody in this department could tell us who made the
decision on these territorial divisions, and nobody could tell
us either who could correct those mistakes.
Even the minister is no longer answering the information
requests of local citizens. What is he waiting for?
He is probably busy handing out the EI fund surplus to the
Minister of Finance. That is the Liberal priority.
Let me turn now to the people, very often young people, who work
on the family farm. Revenue Canada and the human resources
development department take the position that, because of
kinship, these workers are very often excluded from the plan,
even when these jobs have all the elements on a standard
contract and the employer would have to hire other people
anyway.
In other words, a father should say to his son that if he wants
to make sure he is eligible for EI insurance, he should work for
some other farmer. Nonsense. Most of the time, these young
people will take over from their parents on the farm.
Moreover, these people whose jobs are deemed uninsurable by
Revenue Canada are being deprived of benefits and must often
reimburse benefits that they received in previous years. This
approach is unfair and infringes on people's freedom.
In fact, this form of discrimination against those who employ
relatives forces owners of farm businesses, where the bulk of
the work is often seasonal, to hire workers from outside,
instead of their own children.
I take this opportunity today to say to the human resources
development minister that I am deeply disappointed with his
department's decision to shut down the student labour office in
Plessisville.
This office, which had been in place for several years, was
meeting the needs of young people from the regional county
municipality of L'Érable.
The government has explained to us that, this year, in order to
reach students, it is posting available jobs on at least five
sites in the municipality. As if posters could talk.
But where will students have to go to be entitled to the same
services that were offered last year in Plessisville? To
Victoriaville, where everything has been centralized for the
summer season. This is yet another nice way to get closer to the
local people.
But we know why the regional directorate of the Department of
Human Resources Development acted in this way. This department
went through so many cuts that regional directorates are limited
to offering minimal and essential services.
In his last report, the auditor general, when commenting on
services offered by the Department of Human Resources
Development, said that individualized services in this
department would no longer be as efficient, given the
significant cuts made in the last few years.
Also, what is the minister waiting for to respond to the urgent
requests of the maple syrup producers who were hard hit by the
ice storm in January? Where are the millions of dollars missing?
This department is a shambles.
1340
In conclusion, as it said in this morning's newspapers, this
government's trademarks in the last year have been arrogance and
especially a lack of compassion on the employment insurance
issue.
[English]
Mr. Robert D. Nault (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Human Resources Development, Lib.): Madam Speaker, based on
the fact the member is a sovereignist or separatist and is very
much interested in seeing his province separate from the rest of
Canada, I want to get some advice from him and his party's
position on the employment insurance system.
The employment insurance system takes premiums from employees
and employers and redistributes that money in provinces that have
high unemployment. In Quebec they get more money than they put
into the system.
If Quebec were to separate it would be running a deficit in that
account if it had to create its own system. Would it not be to
his benefit to tell us what kind of system he would put in place
to deal with an issue like that or if he believes in the EI
system?
The other question deals with the active measures, part two. We
transfer federal dollars under the EI system to the province of
Quebec to operate part two of the EI system. The understanding
is this fund was a consensus in Quebec, was supported by all
factions of Quebec, both the labour movement and the employers.
Can the member tell me if he is in favour or opposed to part two
of the EI system?
[Translation]
Mr. Odina Desrochers: Madam Speaker, I would
like the hon. member across the floor to know that when Quebec
is entirely on its own to administer the revenue and other taxes
it collects from Quebeckers, particularly the employment
insurance that will be repatriated to Quebec, we will certainly
have a far more efficient and far more humane way of using that
surplus. In Quebec, our attitude is far more social democratic
than that of all the hon. members over there.
I see this as very positive, because in their present system
they are penalizing workers by forcing them to go on welfare for
no logical reason. If we ever administer the employment
insurance fund, it will be done in a far more humane way.
We understand that some situations, or economic contexts, are
difficult as far as employment is concerned.
People may lose their jobs, but they then need training, they
need help, and then, if they cannot manage to find work, they
can be prepared for going on welfare. That is the humane way of
doing things, and that is the way things will be done in a
sovereign Quebec.
[English]
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I listened with considerable interest to the hon. member
opposite and I want him to respond to the following. As he and
all members know, under the EI legislation $2 billion is
available to the provinces and territories for active
re-employment measures and related labour market services.
These provisions provide unemployed Canadians, including youth
and women, with improved skills and opportunities for employment.
Employment insurance also helps women by increasing their earned
income through a $50 minimum earnings exemption and by removing
the artificial 15 hour ceiling on part time work and through
employment benefits such as wage subsidies and earnings
supplement.
What would the member have against those two moves?
On the one hand we have money being given over to the provinces
and the territories and on the other we have assistance for
women. What exactly does he have against those two ideas?
1345
[Translation]
Mr. Odina Desrochers: Madam Speaker, I would like to tell the
hon. member across the floor, first of all, that the money comes
from the provinces. The money is collected from taxpayers
living in all of the provinces of Canada. That is the money the
government is trying to administer in the employment insurance
fund.
You will see that, in Quebec, we are going to do things
properly, because an agreement has been signed, not long ago, on
manpower training.
Judging by the way Minister Louise Harel and her colleagues in
the National Assembly are preparing this program, I am sure that
training will be far more appropriate and far more responsive to
the needs of the community, because it will be in the hands of
the Quebec government, and in the hands of the governments of
the other provinces.
Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): Madam Speaker, I
cannot help but notice this morning, during the debate on a
motion put forward by my colleague from
Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, that the
arrogance and cynicism shown last week by the Minister of
Finance and also the Minister of Human Resources Development are
contagious.
The hon. member for Malpeque, in Prince Edward Island, and the
hon. member for Kenora—Rainy River, in Manitoba, were laughing at
us, making disparaging remarks while we were delivering our
speeches, while we were talking about the poverty created
entirely by the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Human
Resources Development. Their smiles, their cynicism and their
disparaging remarks make them unworthy of speaking on behalf of
those they claim to represent.
I was listening earlier to the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst,
who defeated Doug Young. During question period and debates
concerning employment insurance, Doug Young used to demonstrate
the same pompous arrogance and cynicism and make the same
disparaging, uncalled for and unparliamentary remarks as these
members of parliament. My hon. colleague from Acadie—Bathurst
defeated him.
I hope the same thing will happen to the members for Malpeque
and Kenora—Rainy River. If their constituents are watching us, I
want to tell them “Defeat them in the next election. Go to their
riding offices and hold them accountable for their actions. Ask
them why they laughed when we were talking about the poor, the
unemployed and all the people left out of the employment
insurance reforms. Voters from Malpeque and Kenora—Rainy River,
go knock on the doors of these pompous members of Parliament who
claim that the people in their ridings are quite satisfied with
the employment insurance program. Go tell these cynics that it
is not true.
Go tell these sarcastic members they are not worthy of the seat
they are occupying. They are no more worthy than the finance
minister”.
His not being here today will not stop me from mentioning that
last week he appeared before the Standing Committee on Finance
to present his analysis of the supplementary estimates. Do you
think that given the excellent job by the member for
Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques we were going to
stick to the supplementary estimates?
We talked about employment insurance and while I was presenting
all the arguments against the Liberal reform implemented since
1996, the finance minister did exactly the same thing as the
members for Malpeque and Kenora—Rainy River. He was laughing at
people's misery. He was laughing at the results of his policy.
He was proudly boasting about his accomplishments as Minister of
Finance.
Any dummy could have done what he did; it is easy to put your
financial house in order when you choose two targets: students,
who were hit with billions and billions of dollars in cuts to
post-secondary education, and the unemployed, who were robbed
year after year of $6 billion for a grand total of $19 billion.
I listened to my Liberal colleague for Malpeque, who makes fun
of the unemployed and the underprivileged, saying that the EI
fund does exist, but it does not really. What the finance
minister has been doing for the past four years is basically
this: he has been taking employee and employer contributions and
putting them into his own pocket.
1350
When the time came to pay his debts to eliminate the deficit, he
paid cash. That is why there is no money left in that fund. He
stole it. At the end of the current fiscal year, he will have
stolen $19 billion. Next year, it will be $25 billion, and that
amount will continue to grow year after year.
If the member is too thick-headed to know what is really going on
with regard to employment insurance, he should not be here. He
has no right to laugh about the terrible things that are
happening in Canada, especially concerning the management of the
employment insurance fund.
What is going on with regard to employment insurance? What is
going on with regard to the job market?
It is quite simple. Until the early 1990s, more than 80% of
unemployed Canadians, including women and young people, were
able to rely on a form of help called unemployment insurance.
They could rely on that help for a certain amount of time,
enough to relocate and to find another job.
Since 1996, since the reform brought in by the member for
Lasalle—Émard and finance minister and by two successive human
resources development ministers—the first being the one who was
defeated by my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst and the second
being the one whom it would be in our interest to defeat in the
next election—, the proportion of employment insurance
beneficiaries has shrunk almost by half.
Today, only 42% of those who would normally qualify are eligible
to receive benefits; less than half of those people, 42%, are
now eligible because of the new requirements set by the Minister
of Finance, by the Minister of Human Resources Development, in
fact, by the Liberals. A lot of people no longer have access to
employment insurance because of the reform.
These are general figures. Only 42% of the unemployed qualify,
which means the other 58% do not. More than half of those who
are affected by the scourge of unemployment no longer qualify
for EI benefits because of more stringent conditions and a
longer qualifying period. In short, the unemployed have been
thrown out on to the streets.
The Liberals are telling us they want to help young people, but
75% of all young workers who are unemployed, people who have
graduated and are in their twenties, do not qualify for EI
benefits. Some of them are less educated, but others have
graduated and are out of work nonetheless. It can happen to
anybody.
Last week, the finance minister was quite proud to tell the
finance committee that we may have a budget surplus next year,
not a EI fund surplus, which we know about. He is making fun of
us.
He laughs at people right under their noses. He is cynical and
sarcastic, as we saw this morning.
In his last budget, he told us there would be no surplus and no
deficit for the next three years. He is laughing at us. If
nothing changes, the budget surplus will be more than $20
billion three years from now. He is cooking the books.
He was quite proud and he kept laughing when I told him that in
1989, there were 400,000 fewer unemployed and $3 billion more in
benefits being paid out. The finance minister was laughing this
morning, and his colleagues too. His colleagues from Malpeque
and Kenora—Rainy River laugh when we tell them we have 400,000
more unemployed workers today and that they get $3 billion less
in benefits. They find this very funny.
Last week, I asked the finance minister a question about this
problem. I did not get any answer. I will ask my question again
today. Perhaps, we never know, he is listening in a corner of
his office, behind closed blinds because he does not want to
meet anyone at this point. I have just one question for the
finance minister: when he gets up in the morning and looks in
the mirror, is he ashamed of himself? It is a real shame to have
acted in such a way to put our financial house in order.
There are two major sources: the Canadian social transfer, that
is federal transfers to the provinces to fund welfare,
post-secondary education and health care, and the employment
insurance fund, into which the minister has been dipping, year
after year. He puts the money in his pockets and when the time
comes to sign a cheque, he uses the money he has taken from
workers and employers.
The finance minister did not bother answering me. He did not
because I am convinced that he now has doubts. If he does not
have any doubts, there is a lack of intelligence somewhere.
1355
But one cannot undertake a reform in this hurtful way and say
with one's hand on one's heart: “But what is happening to
Canada? Poverty has been on the rise for five years”. I should
say so. There are more poor children than before. Why? There is
no need to be a rocket scientist to know why. One cannot cut
billions of dollars from the employment insurance fund and
welfare and then expect to get away with it by saying “What is
happening? There are more unemployed people than before”.
These are the people responsible, the ones who are laughing this
morning when they are shown the true face of poverty and
unemployment. I hope that Quebeckers and Canadians will open
their eyes and especially their ears wide. Such cynicism cannot
go unchallenged.
[English]
Mr. Wayne Easter (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Fisheries and Oceans, Lib.): Madam Speaker, the last speaker
certainly strayed some distance in terms of describing the
attitude of a couple of members on this side of the House, myself
included. I hope Canadians listen to what we are saying and not
the descriptions used by the member opposite.
We on this side of the House take very seriously the situation
of the unemployed. That is why we have tried to make
improvements to the system. The reality is that the system had
to be changed to ensure it will be there in the future for the
unemployed and the workers who need it.
Is the member opposite suggesting that we take out the provision
in the Employment Insurance Act that allows low income families
with dependants to receive a higher benefit level than they did
under the old legislation? Is he suggesting that we should do
away with the hours based system? This has brought 500,000
people into the system who otherwise would not be entitled to
benefits. Is he suggesting that we deny part time workers who
work less than 15 hours a week? Is he suggesting that we take
them out of the system? Two hundred and seventy thousand women
benefit by that section of the legislation. Is that what he is
suggesting? Is he going to bury his head in the sand and go back
to the old unemployment insurance system? That system is an end
run where people never try to maintain long term jobs.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvan Loubier: Madam Speaker, we simply want justice and
fairness. Currently, everyone, without exception, contributes to
the employment insurance program. This includes young people,
women, older people and middle aged workers. However, access to
the program has been significantly reduced over the past 10
years.
Before 1990, over 80% of unemployed workers were eligible for
employment insurance. Now, only 42% qualify, and only one in
four young people qualife.
The member may claim he was not laughing earlier, but we have
witnesses who can confirm that he did not stop laughing while we
discuss alarming figures on poverty and unemployment. The
Liberals are laughing in our face.
People, particularly the poor and the unemployed, should come
here more often and watch from the public gallery. They would
see the attitude of the members responsible for the cuts and the
human misery. They would see the members responsible for the
significantly reduced access to the EI program and for social
inequity in Canada. They would see that they are dealing with
members who are cynical and sarcastic and who do not care at all
about their fate.
The Speaker: It being almost 2 p.m., we will
now proceed to Statements by Members.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
FORESTRY
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Thunder Bay—Atikokan, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, northwestern Ontario has been chosen by the Canadian
Forestry Association as the forest capital of Canada for the year
2000.
1400
The northwest's bid, led by Development Thunder Bay and Dryden
Economic Development won out over rivals Calgary, Alberta and
Haliburton, Ontario.
The Forest Capital Award is especially significant for the year
2000. Not only is it the millennium year but it is also marks
the 100th anniversary of the Canadian Forestry Association.
This designation means that the region can go ahead with a
series of legacy projects and a calendar year of events
celebrating the economic, social and spiritual values of the
forest.
Canada has much to celebrate.
* * *
FRASER VALLEY CONSTITUENTS
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, what
is it about the Fraser Valley that turns out such good quality
people?
Last week Mr. William Henderson, head of technology education at
Robert Bateman Secondary in Abbotsford received the Prime
Minister's Teaching Excellence Award.
That is not the only award the Fraser Valley has been winning
lately.
On May 19 four Abbotsford students overcame stiff competition to
win gold medals at the Skills Canada national championship. Yale
student Don Poirier won a gold medal in the Architectural CAD
competition. Robert Bateman Secondary students Mike Olson and
Mike Thompson won gold medals in computer animation. Not to be
outdone, Career Technical Centre student Cecil Leclair won first
place in the Principles of Technology competition.
Technical expertise is not the only thing Fraser Valley students
are good at. On May 17 and 18, 13-year old Mathew Pitts of
Chilliwack Middle School took on all comers and won the Canadian
Chess Championship for grade eight students.
I could go on and on. I will sum up by saying Fraser Valley is a
wonderful place to stay and it is a wonderful place to visit, but
it is the wonderful people of the Fraser Valley that make it the
nicest riding in all of Canada.
* * *
SYDENHAM RIVER CLEAN-UP
Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur (Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I rise today to congratulate the town of Wallaceburg and
the dedicated community groups who are working together to clean
up the Sydenham River.
On Saturday I was on hand when scuba divers entered the river in
the centre of town to remove unwanted items. The clean-up
project came about because of a very unfortunate accident. A
year ago a young boy tragically drowned in the river as he was
caught in some underwater debris.
My constituents and I praise the Wallaceburg Rotary Club,
president Jim Tumelty and councillor Chip Gordon as they combined
their efforts with the local police, firefighters, power
squadron, volunteer divers, the Royal Canadian Legion Branch No.
18 and the Environment Club from Wallaceburg District Secondary
School. Together they are improving the safety of the river.
Their hard work and enthusiasm are to be commended.
* * *
TEACHING EXCELLENCE AWARD
Mrs. Claudette Bradshaw (Moncton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on
behalf of the constituents of the greater Moncton area, I rise in
the House today to congratulate Mr. Andrew Campbell who was
awarded the 1997 Prime Minister's Award for Teaching Excellence.
A teacher at the MacNaughton Science and Technology Centre in
Moncton, New Brunswick, Mr. Campbell has been chosen for a
certificate of achievement and has been awarded a cash prize of
$1,000. This amount will be used to purchase resource materials,
teaching aids and other tools to help enhance the teaching
environment at the MacNaughton Science and Technology Centre.
[Translation]
We should always take the time to recognize and to thank our
teachers for their dedication to promoting the development of
our children.
[English]
Once again, I speak on behalf of everyone in the greater Moncton
area when I say to Mr. Campbell, thank you for your wonderful
contribution and congratulations on your well-deserved award.
* * *
EMPLOYMENT
Ms. Carolyn Bennett (St. Paul's, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
government is working hard to help unemployed Canadians return to
work. Last year nearly 400,000 jobs were created and the
unemployment rate has dropped to its lowest level in eight years.
Employment insurance represents a key element in our efforts to
encourage job creation and economic growth for it removes the
disincentives to work which existed under the previous system. It
uses active employment measures to help unemployed workers to
return to work, such as the $800 million investment in
re-employment benefits and the $300 million transitional jobs
fund which has created more than 300,000 jobs in the last two
years in high unemployment regions.
Clearly EI is doing an excellent job of helping unemployed
Canadians get back to work as quickly as possible. For this
reason I want to express my support for this program and urge all
members to work with us to make sure EI can continue to provide
workers with the assistance they need and deserve.
* * *
REFORM PARTY OF CANADA
Mr. Derrek Konrad (Prince Albert, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
this weekend in the beautiful forest city of London, Ontario, the
membership of the Reform Party of Canada constructed its bridge
to the 21st century.
Based as always on the principles and policies which have taken
us from protest movement to official opposition, resolutions to
consolidate opposition to this weak and stalled Liberal
government were passed resoundingly.
More than 1,000 delegates from across Canada voted to forge a
united alternative to form the next government and to begin
nationwide discussions for a newly aligned federation in a new
Canada act.
1405
It is the innovation and the solid foundation laid by the early
Reformers joined with the energy and enthusiasm of our youth that
will provide a bright future not only for the Reform Party but
for all Canada.
This weekend the leadership for a new generation was born in the
actions taken by the Reform national assembly solidly based on
the party's principles, its policies and its people.
* * *
ACCESS AWARENESS WEEK
Ms. Beth Phinney (Hamilton Mountain, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
this week various communities will be celebrating the advances
made by Canadians with disabilities in their communities.
Access Awareness Week reminds us that we are working toward a
goal to enable people with disabilities to enjoy the full
participation in the economic and social life of Canada. It also
gives us an occasion to reflect on the work being done and to
call on our partners to renew our commitment to Canadians with
disabilities so they can create and build opportunities for
themselves.
Just recently the Prime Minister received the prestigious
Franklin Delano Roosevelt International Disability Award at the
UN on behalf of Canadians. This award recognizes our commitment
to work with Canadians with disabilities for their full
participation in Canadian society.
But as the Prime Minister said, much remains to be done. I urge
all members of the House to build on this award and to continue
to work to enable Canadians with disabilities to take their full
place in the economic life of this country.
* * *
WINDSOR—ST. CLAIR CONSTITUENCY
Ms. Shaughnessy Cohen (Windsor—St. Clair, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, at the Reform convention this weekend the name
Windsor—St. Clair became synonymous with the ongoing attempt by
that party's elite to vest even more power in their leader and
his Calgary gang. The so-called Windsor—St. Clair report was the
vehicle they used to try to do this.
Let me tell say that the good voters of Windsor—St. Clair
should not be associated with internecine Reform power struggles.
The real grassroots in Windsor—St. Clair do not even support
Reform. They vote for real representation in the House by voting
Liberal.
* * *
REFORM PARTY OF CANADA
Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, this past weekend London, Ontario played
host to the best example of democracy in Canada, a Reform Party
assembly.
It was absolutely wonderful to see the grassroots members of our
party overwhelmingly support initiatives like the united
alternative and the new Canada act and other policies that would
be beneficial in governing this country. Yet these independently
minded individuals also rejected a number of resolutions that
they felt would be detrimental to the country.
Our assembly once again demonstrated the difference between
Reformers and Liberals. In the Reform Party grassroots members
give direction to the leader, whereas in the Liberal Party
independent thought is prohibited. Their leader rules with an
iron fist, or sometimes a choke hold.
* * *
REFORM PARTY OF CANADA
Mr. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
every so often the Reform Party tries to put a new face on its
tired old policies in the hopes that somehow it will be able to
attract new members.
With its membership growth stagnated, its latest attempt is
called united alternative but the big problem is that it looks
exactly like the Reform Party. It will have the same leader, the
same so-called principles and the same policy as the Reform
Party. Some alternative. Canadians considered the Reform
alternative in the last election and they turned thumbs down.
I cannot say it any better than an Ontario delegate to the
convention who was quoted as saying that he wondered why anybody
from another party would attend a Reform organized assembly
knowing in advance the party's principles were untouchable and
its leader would desperately try to remain leader.
The vast majority of Canadians know that no matter what kind of
sheep's clothing the party wraps itself in, Reform's wolves are
not what Canada needs.
* * *
[Translation]
CANADIAN ARMED FORCES
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, last
week, Maclean's magazine reported on 13 women who were victims
of harassment, sexual assault and rape in the armed forces.
Following this article, 11 other women came forward, bringing to
24 the number of women who have been victims of such abuse.
1410
The Bloc Quebecois wishes to acknowledge the courage shown by
these women in reporting experiences that bring back painful
memories.
We urge all women in the military who suffered such abuse to
come forward, to put an end to this situation and create in the
armed forces a work environment based on respect, equality and
dignity.
* * *
[English]
VETERANS AFFAIRS
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, 26
Royal Canadian Air Force officers were condemned to the
Buchenwald concentration camp by the Nazi Gestapo in 1944. One
of these was a constituent of mine, Mr. William R. Gibson.
Five months ago, I wrote to the Minister of Foreign Affairs
demanding that the Canadian government seek reparations from
Germany. Five months later it appears no action is being taken.
These veterans are not getting any younger. Each day this
Liberal government does not take action is a day it further
disgraces itself to these veterans and all Canadians.
The German government has already made similar reparations to
Britain. The United States is also actively dealing with this
matter. I understand in all that veterans from 19 other
countries who suffered the same fate have received some action
from their governments. Australia and New Zealand have provided
their own compensation for veterans in similar positions.
These veterans deserve justice today. Over half a century is an
obscene amount of time to wait. Justice delayed is justice
denied.
* * *
[Translation]
REFORM PARTY
Mr. Benoît Serré (Timiskaming—Cochrane, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
polls in Quebec are clear when it comes to the presence and role
of the Reform Party. Nobody wants anything to do with them.
The only people interested in this political party are the Bloc
Quebecois. It is truly strange. The Bloc Quebecois is the
party that criticizes the Reform Party for its anti-Quebec stand.
Now the Reformers are looking at them as possible allies.
It is the separatists who will welcome this shift. I can hardly
wait to hear the new Sovereignist-Reform party line. As a third
way, it is pretty sad.
* * *
[English]
ENVIRONMENT
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC): Mr. Speaker, May 31
to June 6 has been designated World Environment Week. This is an
opportunity for all Canadians to reflect on the beauty of our
nation with all its forests, mountains, rivers and lakes, a
landscape that defines a country. It is also a time when
Canadians hope the Prime Minister will for once reflect on his
poor environmental record and reconsider the importance his
government gives to this portfolio.
I urge the government to tackle the problems reported by the
commissioner of the environment and by the environment committee
during the past few weeks.
This government has no plan to protect Canada's biodiversity. It
has no viable plan to address climate change and it is failing to
enforce its own environmental assessment guidelines.
I also urge the government to revisit its cuts to the department
which will hamper our ability to meet our environmental
commitments both at home and abroad.
This government must recognize that reducing the size of the
environmental budget has a direct impact on the Canada we will
leave to future generations.
* * *
[Translation]
SENIORS BENEFIT
Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire (Longueuil, BQ): Mr. Speaker, here is a
poem about this government's treatment of women over 65:
Her endless round of work complete,
madame was much dismayed
when, on retirement, it appeared
that she would not get paid.
The new reform, so brightly wrapped,
ignored all she had done,
and though they were her rightful due,
of payments there were none.
“But what about my kids,” she cried.
“Is no allowance made?
Without them you would all be lost,
and others would need aid”.
The man who held the purse strings said
“Have I not been quite clear?
You never drew a pay cheque, so
you're on your own, my dear”
* * *
[English]
CALGARY DECLARATION
Mr. Ted McWhinney (Vancouver Quadra, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the British Columbia legislature has ratified by unanimous vote
the nine premiers' Calgary declaration on Quebec's status as a
unique society within the Canadian federal system.
The B.C. legislature, to secure unanimity, also cited several
areas of prime concern in B.C.-Ottawa co-operation. These
additions do not legally derogate from the ratification of the
Calgary declaration.
While not a formal amendment of the Constitution, the Calgary
declaration when ratified by the nine provincial legislatures
will acquire its own constitutional legal quality of which
judicial notice may be taken.
* * *
1415
REFORM PARTY CONVENTION
Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Ref.): Mr.
Speaking, last weekend the Reform Party held its seventh assembly
meeting in London, Ontario. The Reform Party laid out a
challenge to all Canadians, a challenge to come together, to work
together and to build a stronger Canada; a Canada that lives
within its means, where taxes are lower, where useless
regulations are removed and job opportunities thrive; a Canada
where all of its citizens, whether living in New Brunswick,
Ontario, British Columbia or any of its provinces and territories
have equal rights and equal responsibilities; a Canada
where there is equality for all and special status for no one;
where a social safety net is there for those who need it and is
not used as a dependent system; a Canada where justice is put
back into the justice system and victims' rights are put first;
where parliamentary institutions reflect the will of the people
and not the political leadership of a party; where aboriginal and
non-aboriginal people work together with equal rights to build a
stronger future for all.
Join Reform's united—
The Speaker: Oral questions.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the government's purchasing rules say that whenever it
buys anything costing more than $30,000 it has to go to
competitive bidding.
Last winter, at a closed door cabinet meeting, this government
decided to award a $2.85 billion contract to Bombardier without
competitive bidding.
What possible excuse does the Minister of Public Works have for
awarding a contract of this size and complexity without a
competitive bid?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, first, the contract went to a consortium
that included Bombardier and other companies. At the time it
brought forward a proposal that was quite unique. The proposal
was such that no other competitor would have existed in this
country. There was absolutely no one else who could do something
of this particular magnitude.
We proceeded with the contract that will save some $200 million
over 20 years in providing this service and 90% of the jobs that
will be saved or created will be in western Canada.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, this contract is unique all right. Let me show you how
unique it is.
Public Works' contracting guidelines expressly say that if the
government is going to sole source a contract public notice must
be given 14 days in advance of awarding the contract to give
companies a chance to respond, to question or to express
interest. In this case cabinet made a decision to bypass this
rule and not advertise the procurement at all.
This is in the ballpark of the Minister of Public Works. Whose
decision was it to bypass the regulations of his department? Was
it his decision?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in addition to the fact that there was no
other known competitor and that no other company could have
matched a project of this magnitude, there was a timing problem.
If we were going to be able to get other countries within NATO to
become a part of this program, then a very timely decision had to
be made. Otherwise we would have lost any opportunity, if we had
gone through a very lengthy process, where there would have been
no other competitors in any event.
Again, the government will be saving a lot of—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: My colleagues, with the usual banter back
and forth it sometimes gets a little difficult to hear either the
questions or the answers. I would appeal to you to be a little
more considerate.
The hon. Leader of the Opposition.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the minister is wrong on both counts. NATO has
indicated that there was time flexibility on this contract and
the assistant deputy minister of Public Works said that there
were other companies that could have done the job.
1420
We have a big contract, we have a military contract, where there
has been bungling before, and we have it with Bombardier, whose
people have been thick as thieves with Liberals at the highest
levels.
Whose decision was it to bend the rules in favour of Bombardier?
Was it the minister responsible or was it the Prime Minister
himself?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, first of all there was no bending of the
rules. Secondly, this was a decision taken by cabinet in light
of all of the information that was brought forward and the
capability of companies to be able to do the job.
It is not just Bombardier. Frontec Corporation of Edmonton, CAE
Electronics of Montreal and British Aerospace of the United
Kingdom are part of a consortium that is involved in this
particular project. This consortium, together, can deliver on
this project. It can save a lot of money for Canadian taxpayers.
It can encourage foreign countries to send their pilots to this
country. It can save the base in Moose Jaw and create lots of
jobs in western—
The Speaker: The hon. Leader of the Opposition.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, the minister is wrong again. He is listing
subcontractors and we are talking about the prime contractor.
Rules were broken. The 14 day advertisement rule was broken and
it could only have been bypassed by a cabinet decision.
How long is the Minister of Public Works going to sit there and
say nothing? This is his department and his regulations were
broken.
We ask the question again. Whose decision was it to bypass the
rules? Was it the decision of the minister or the Prime
Minister?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member seems to have a tough
time understanding that no rules in fact were broken. This was a
government decision and it was the right decision to make in view
of the timing. Otherwise we would have lost the opportunity. We
would have had to close the base. Would the member opposite like
to have the base at Moose Jaw closed with the resulting loss of
jobs in that area?
We have saved those jobs. Ninety percent of $1 billion in
industrial regional benefits will be in western Canada, with over
5,000 person years of employment. It is a good deal. It is one
in which the private sector will carry the risk and we will get
training for our pilots. It will amount to a saving of $200
million over 20 years.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, the simple fact is that the 14 day requirement to
publicly advertise a sole source contract was not kept. If that
rule was not kept, it could only be because of a decision by
cabinet to override it.
Now I will ask for the fourth time: Was that decision the
decision of the Minister of Public Works who is responsible for
procurement or was it the decision of the Prime Minister himself?
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Public Works and
Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I think the Minister
of National Defence already answered that it was a cabinet
decision. This is a very unique and modern project that will
allow the private sector to work co-operatively with the
government.
Let me inform the House that this project was announced in
November. The Reform Party has just woken up now because of a
newspaper story. My department and my officials offered the
Reform critic the opportunity to view all the books to see how
this was done. This is a new concept and everything was done in
an open manner.
* * *
[Translation]
ALLIANCE QUEBEC
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, on the
radio this morning, I heard the new president of Alliance
Quebec, William Johnson, state that he had many friends in the
Liberal Party of Canada.
He even said that the Prime Minister once called him to
congratulate him on some of his positions.
My question is for the Deputy Prime Minister. Can the Prime
Minister, who is apparently an admirer of Alliance Quebec's new
president, tell us whether the government supports Mr. Johnson's
positions, which were adopted last weekend and which in effect
have become Alliance Quebec's platform?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the new president of Alliance Quebec is contemplating
court challenges which seem pointless to us and are probably
doomed to fail anyway because, for one thing, under section 59
of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the National
Assembly or the Government of Quebec may limit access to
English-speaking schools to preserve French.
1425
Also, in a 1988 decision, the Supreme Court ruled that a policy
of making the French language predominant on commercial signs
was justified. The president of Alliance Quebec would be much
better off working together with all Quebeckers, both French- and
English-speaking.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, if I
understand correctly, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs
just spoke in favour of Bill 101, and I congratulate him on
this.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: I would therefore ask this government if, in
any future court challenge involving the expenditure of public
funds by the federal government, it will refuse to award any
grants to Alliance Quebec for this purpose.
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, there are two sources of funding involved. First, there
is the community component of the official languages support
program, which benefits 90% of francophones outside Quebec. In
this case, the Government of Canada could withdraw its grant
should the mandate not be fulfilled. This remedy has never been
used so far, but we have never ruled it out.
There is also a court challenges program, but it is only for
challenges concerning the Charter. It apparently does not apply
to the president of Alliance Quebec, as he does not seem to
understand that, on the contrary, the Charter safeguards the
possibility of limiting access to English-speaking schools for as
long as necessary to protect the French language in North
America.
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, despite what
the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs has just said, the new
president of Alliance Quebec says he was assured by a Treasury
Board official on the weekend that there would be no problem for
the grant from Ottawa.
Given this assurance, are we to understand that the case has in
fact already been heard and that, regardless of Alliance
Quebec's activities—including partition, which the minister did
not mention, civil disobedience, and a court challenge of Bill
101—the grant is in the bag?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, just as the Government of Quebec does not cancel a
grant to a sovereignist group that implies that the right to
vote could be dependent on the French language, so the mere fact
of electing a president does not mean the cancellation of a
grant.
If this were the approach, all organizations in Canada, whether
in the field of language or not, would rise up and ask what kind
of world they were living in.
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the minister's
answer is far from satisfactory. I will give the minister
another chance.
Does the minister think the Government of Canada should provide
up to 90% of the funding of an organization that is proposing
civil disobedience and the partition of Quebec? Does he think
that a 90% funding level is appropriate?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, in that case, the majority of Quebeckers would be
wrong, because a poll of Quebeckers indicates that a majority
feel that regions wanting to remain within Canada should be
allowed to do so.
No one in this country would even be thinking about carving up
Quebec's territory if certain people had not begun actively
promoting the breakup of the country.
* * *
[English]
HEPATITIS C
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, while
the health minister stalls and blunders on hepatitis C
compensation lawyers line up to feed on victims' insecurities.
In Manitoba we now have evidence that victims are being coaxed
to give up 25% of their compensation in exchange for legal
representation.
Can the minister not see that his stalling is driving victims
into the arms of lawyers only too willing to take a hefty cut out
of their compensation?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
as the leader of the party knows, there is a working group in
place which is meeting this very week in Edmonton with
representatives of the Hepatitis C Society and others to examine
a whole range of options available to better deal with the
interests of all those who acquired hepatitis C through the blood
system. I think it is best for us to let them get on with their
work so we can approach a solution with a national consensus.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, today's
hepatitis C negotiations in Edmonton will be a complete waste of
time unless the federal government puts money on the table.
It is simple: the feds put money on the table and negotiations
go forward, or the feds do nothing and victims are doomed to an
endless shuffle between doctors' offices and the law courts.
What is it going to be?
1430
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the member would do well to recall that it is precisely to spare
people unnecessary litigation that the government initiated a
process which resulted in the offer to some 22,000 people who
were infected between 1986 and 1990.
As to the rest, the member would have us put the cart before the
horse. We prefer to do the homework first, and that is why all
interested parties are at work this week on the working group to
find a solution for which there is a national consensus.
* * *
FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Mr. Speaker,
there is a powder keg smouldering in south Asia right now.
Team Canada went to China to make money. We know that the
government cares more about money than it does about regional
security.
I ask the Deputy Prime Minister what steps Canada has taken to
condemn China, since it is now evident that it was China which
transferred technology to Pakistan and made last week's nuclear
blast possible, or is Canadian foreign policy for sale?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I reject the premise of the hon. member's question.
Canadian foreign policy is not for sale.
We have strongly condemned the most recent Pakistani nuclear
tests. We have imposed the same sanctions on Pakistan in this
regard as we have on India.
Our foreign minister intends to take part in the meeting of G-8
foreign ministers on June 12. We have a strong statement through
our foreign minister out of the NATO ministerial council. We are
clearly acting together with our allies on this important matter.
Certainly, with respect to the hon. member's comments, I think
we better check the facts as to what he is talking about.
Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Mr. Speaker,
speaking of allies, President Clinton went against the advice of
the state department, his defence department, the CIA and the
department of justice to give sensitive missile technology to the
Chinese.
Will the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister commit
today to discuss Canada's deep concern with President Clinton's
role in this unstable and dangerous situation between Pakistan
and India before the president goes to China this month?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, first I think we should check the factual basis for my
hon. friend's allegations.
Certainly we are in close contact with the United States. We
want to work with them to help assure the stability of the region
in the interest of the people of the region and the entire world.
* * *
GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, a
$2.85 billion contract was dumped into the lap of Bombardier by
the Liberal cabinet.
With all the political connections, the large donations to the
Liberal Party and the fact that there was no competition in this
award, it is obvious that cabinet bent the rules.
Who decided to bypass all the competition rules? Was it the
public works minister or was it the Prime Minister?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I noted that the hon. member and his
colleagues supported our purchases of submarines. They never
complained about the fact that we did not go out for tender
calls, proposal calls in that case, because it obviously did not
make sense. There happened to be some slightly used ones
available.
Every case has to be examined on its merits. This case was
examined on its merits and it was determined that this was the
best possible direction to go in. There was really no other
choice.
The timing was such that cabinet decided if we did not get this
bid in we would have lost the jobs in Moose Jaw. We would have
lost all our opportunities and we would not have saved the money
we are saving.
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
this is the largest service contract ever issued in Canada.
With all the family connections to the Prime Minister, with the
political donations to the Liberal Party and the fact that no
competition was allowed, cabinet bent the rules.
Who made the decision to bend the rules? Was it the Prime
Minister? Was it the public works minister, or was it both of
them?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we reject categorically the insinuations of the hon.
member that the rules were bent and that there was political
influence.
The rules were followed as far as I am aware and the conditions
and circumstances are proper on this occasion.
What shows the lack of credibility of the member is that he did
not say one word about the sole source purchase of the
submarines. What are the differences? Why is he complaining
about that? Why is he against 5,000 jobs for western Canada, 90%
of them, and thousands of jobs all across the country because of
this project?
* * *
1435
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, last week, economist Pierre Fortin harshly
criticized the employment insurance plan.
Today, economist Marc Van Audenrode has added his voice to that
of Pierre Fortin saying that Canada's plan used to be more
generous than most of those of the OECD countries and is now
less generous on average.
If the minister is trying to justify his cuts affecting young
people by the need to keep them in school, how will he justify
his cuts affecting workers of all ages?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the government is undertaking a
major reform of the plan the opposition member describes as
generous, but which is totally ineffective within the context of
the Canadian economy, as he knows full well. Studies around the
world considered the Canadian system to be outdated and a
disincentive to work.
I think we have done our job in modernizing the employment
insurance system and in adapting it to the modern reality of the
labour market.
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, this same economist noted that our employment
system had become less generous than the system in New England
and was now comparable to Alabama's.
Does the minister really want Canada's employment insurance
system to be comparable to the worst offered by our neighbours
to the south?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, once again we note that the Bloc
is interested only in the passive measures of the system that
was compared with systems in certain states solely in terms of
passive measures, whereas the design and philosophy of our
employment insurance plan is not to have people on employment
insurance but to help them return to the labour market.
That is why we increased budgets for active measures in order to
help them return to the labour force. That is why we created
the transitional job fund. This is much more interesting for
Canadians than a cheque every two weeks.
* * *
[English]
HEPATITIS C
Mr. Maurice Vellacott (Wanuskewin, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
today in Edmonton health ministers will be discussing
compensation for hepatitis C victims.
Apparently one of the proposed options by this government is to
do nothing, to offer no new federal money. Will the health
minister rule out this option of doing nothing, of simply
sticking with the status quo?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
it is not health ministers who are meeting. It is senior
officials from all governments. A number of options are before
those senior officials.
I should stress to the member and to the House that the federal
government has not taken any final position in relation to any of
them. We think it is important to do the homework first to find
out whether there is a basis for a national consensus because
that is in the interest of those with hepatitis C.
Mr. Maurice Vellacott (Wanuskewin, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the minister seems to be suffering from amnesia because he along
with his government on May 5 in the House voted unanimously that
at today's meeting the topic would be “how to address the
financial needs of all the victims”.
The topic was how to address the financial needs of those
victims, not whether to address the financial needs. Why is the
health minister and the government not honouring his commitment
in that recorded vote? Why does he not rule out the status quo
this very day?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
we believe it is important to let these officials do their work.
They are together right now examining the options. They have
representatives of the Hepatitis C Society there answering
questions and responding to specific factual matters that we
raised.
Let us let the working group do its job and then we will be in a
position to assess where we go from there.
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is
for the Minister of Human Resources Development. Only 41% of
unemployed workers are still collecting employment insurance.
Instead of correcting the situation, the minister prefers to
target those who still qualify for benefits. This is the case
for forestry workers, who are being deprived of benefits while
being asked to pay significant arrears.
How can the minister reasonably justify a forestry worker being
deprived of benefits because officials discovered that he was
working with a horse instead of forestry equipment?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we will take a close look at the
situation. I do not think that using a horse instead of forestry
equipment makes a big difference in terms of employment
insurance benefits. I can assure you that we will give due
consideration to this matter.
1440
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, how can the
minister justify that, in addition to significantly reducing
assistance to seasonal workers, his department is now issuing
guidelines to target forestry workers and review their
situation, for the purpose of cutting their benefits?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we hear many biased views about
the impact of the reform on seasonal workers, but there are also
things the other side of the House never wants to talk about.
One of them is that seasonal workers, who sometimes work only a
few weeks but as many as 42, 45 or 50 hours a week, now benefit
from a protection not provided by the old system.
This is a more balanced approach, and this is the balance we are
seeking.
* * *
[English]
FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
Malcolm McKechnie, Canada's deputy ambassador to Italy, was the
frontman for the government's recent whirlwind tour over there.
McKechnie stayed at the posh Excelsior Hotel for three weeks when
he was just getting things ready. The cost was $10,000.
I would like to ask the junior foreign affairs minister this
question. Why was this approved by the Prime Minister's office
and who was it in there that signed the authorization?
Mr. Ted McWhinney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as parliamentary
secretary and not in another title I must say that the figures
quoted are slightly exaggerated, by one-third.
Now let us come to the substance of the issue. The gentleman
concerned had been posted to Rome on his first posting. He did
not yet have diplomatic quarters. His assignment was to prepare
the diplomatic conference.
The decision was made by the embassy which was in charge, not by
the PMO or by the foreign ministry, to have him work in the hotel
where the delegation and conference would be and to work on a 24
hour a day basis—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Edmonton North.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
know we all work tremendous hours, but I bet you a dollar there
is a Holiday Inn over there that would be a whole lot cheaper
than the Excelsior.
I look at the amount of money taxpayers that are on the hook for
this. Whether it is $7,000, $8,000, $9,000 or $10,000, it is an
exorbitant, horrifying amount of money that the Canadian taxpayer
had to fork out. This is scandalous.
There is no way the parliamentary secretary is able to defend
this. I will ask him one more time why this amount of money was
wasted on Mr. McKechnie by the government when he could have had
a free bed at our embassy.
Mr. Ted McWhinney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as already explained,
there were no diplomatic free bed premises available at the time
he arrived.
It seems a not unreasonable administrative decision by the
people in charge of the conference, the embassy, to put him in
the hotel where he would be arranging it. He was in charge of
the administrative arrangements. He was working 24 hours a day,
around the clock.
* * *
[Translation]
MILLENNIUM SCHOLARSHIPS
Mr. Pierre Brien (Témiscamingue, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question
is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.
This morning, the students of Quebec vehemently denounced the
millennium scholarship project. They announced a series of
actions that will take place to block the project. When the
very people who are to benefit from a government program are the
ones to speak out against it, unanimously and unequivocally, it
is because it is not appropriate.
Does the minister not find it paradoxical that he is determined
to put a program in place that the people it is destined for do
not want?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, our government wanted
negotiation and we committed to it in good faith.
The decision to break off negotiations was made by the
Government of Quebec two weeks ago. The Government of Quebec
stuck obstinately to its doctrinaire position on the right to
withdraw with full compensation.
The Quebec National Assembly passed a unanimous resolution,
which the Government of Quebec supported but chose to ignore
when it wrote to the Prime Minister, still referring to its
dogmatic position instead of the resolution adopted by the
National Assembly.
* * *
CHILD LABOUR
Mr. Jacques Saada (Brossard—La Prairie, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of
Foreign Affairs.
One of the scourges afflicting the children of this world is
being forced to work at a very young age in conditions that are
often hazardous and always unpropitious to their schooling and
development.
I would like to know what Canada is doing about these nearly 250
million children whose childhood is being stolen from them in
this way.
1445
[English]
Mr. Ted McWhinney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member
for his question. It is a top priority of this government to act
on child labour. We will seek the co-operation of the opposition
parties, as we did with the land mines convention. We would like
to have it.
We have already established the child labour challenge fund. We
have held consultations with other governments on child labour.
We adopted legislation on sex tourism. We participated in the
Oslo child labour conference. It is our agenda that was adopted.
HRDC has hosted a conference with NAFTA partners. CIDA has
adopted a strategy for children. Health has undertaken a study
on child labour here.
The Speaker: The hon. member for Medicine Hat.
* * *
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
Canadians have been hearing about the EI surplus for some time
now. I wonder if the Minister of Human Resources Development can
tell us where this $15 billion in cash is sitting.
Is it in a bank account? Is it invested somewhere? Maybe it is
under someone's mattress. Exactly where is our $15 billion EI
surplus?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is in the
consolidated revenue fund.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
guess that is cold comfort for people who thought it was going to
be set aside for a rainy day.
As the minister knows, the EI fund is imaginary like leprechauns
and unicorns, like the Bre-X gold fields and like the Prime
Minister's homeless friend.
When will the finance minister break the bad news to all
Canadians? When will he tell them the job safety net that was
supposed to be set aside is spent and gone? What does he have to
show for the $15 billion that Canadians put in there other than
an IOU?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, since our
government took office we have made four cuts to EI premiums.
They have gone from $3.30 down to $2.70. For every 10 cents
we cut in those EI premiums, it costs over $700 million.
The hon. member has to come clean. If he wants us to make the
cuts there, where is he going to cut? Is he going to cut that
out of reductions to the debt? Is he going to cut that out of
other tax relief? Is he going to cut it out of transfers to the
provinces? Is he going to cut it out of transfers for pensions
or health care?
[Translation]
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the Minister
of National Revenue should be ashamed for saying that he made
workers pay the debt. While the Minister of Finance is spending
the $17 billion surplus in the EI fund, fewer than 40% of
unemployed workers are receiving EI benefits.
Will the Minister of Human Resources Development stop conducting
studies and take action? Will he change the EI eligibility
criteria in order to help the 780,000 workers who are not
receiving benefits?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I have said on many occasions
in this House and throughout the country, it is clear that our
government is concerned about the fact that only 42% of
unemployed workers are covered under the existing EI system.
My department has asked Statistics Canada to add a number of
questions over the coming months so that we may get a clear
picture of the situation these unemployed workers are facing.
My department will be able to analyze the information provided
by Statistics Canada and make informed decisions.
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the sooner
they quit doing studies and get on with it, the happier I will
be.
Seventeen billion dollars is a lot of money. Why is this
government refusing to help unemployed workers facing hard
times? Sixty per cent of them are not receiving benefits and,
of those who are, many are getting barely 30% of their salary.
Will the Minister of Human Resources Development show that he
has a heart and increase EI benefits so that poor families can
buy clothing and food for their children?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, our government does have a heart
and it does not want to see these people—
An hon. member: That is not true.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew: —condemned to live on EI for the rest
of their lives, to a cycle of EI and unstable work.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew: On the contrary, what we want is for
Canadian workers—
1450
The Speaker: Dear colleagues, I am sure that we all want to hear
the answer. The hon. Minister of Human Resources Development.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew: Mr. Speaker, what I wanted to say
before the members opposite interrupted was that we want
Canadian workers to have access to the labour market. That is
why we have increased active job measures.
We have created a transitional jobs fund in order to help
thousands of Canadians stay off EI and enter the job market,
because that is the best way of being sure that one can buy
clothing for one's children, to pick up on what the member said.
* * *
[English]
NUCLEAR TESTING
Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Mr. Speaker, on
Saturday Pakistan detonated its sixth nuclear device, adding to
the five set off by India last month. Pakistan has China to
thank for making this possible.
In the past when the world looked to Canada for leadership to
help reduce regional tensions, Canada was there. On Friday the
Times of London called on Canada to again assert our
leadership role.
Will the Prime Minister send negotiators to India, Pakistan and
China to diffuse this nuclear arms race?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, Canada has already offered to mediate the Kashmir
situation with both India and Pakistan. Unfortunately to date
India has not been willing to accept Canadian mediation.
If it will help the situation, Canada is ready to offer its good
offices at the request of the international community. Canada
has already taken firm action to deplore the actions of India and
Pakistan. Canada is playing its part and will continue to do so
to try to restore stability in that part of the world and avoid
any nuclear conflagration. I think we are acting effectively and
we will continue to do so.
Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Mr. Speaker, I have
heard of nuclear warheads but never before of a nuclear war
horse.
Yesterday U.S. senator and former ambassador to India Daniel
Patrick Moynihan said the world is closer to a nuclear war than
we have been at any point since the Cuban missile crisis.
China, a communist totalitarian regime, is providing Pakistan
with the technology to take on India, the world's largest
democracy. Any meaningful Canadian intervention needs to engage
China as well as India and Pakistan.
Will the Prime Minister commit to sending an envoy to India,
Pakistan and China today?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I think the factual basis of the hon. member's
allegations about China needs to be tested. I repeat that Canada
is ready to play a full role in helping to mediate the matter.
However, to do it most effectively it has to be done in concert
with other like minded countries, and that is what we are doing.
* * *
PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
Ms. Sophia Leung (Vancouver Kingsway, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
recently Rick Hansen met with me to discuss neurotrauma and
initiatives to promote prevention and rehabilitation.
My question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.
Is the government going to provide assistance for people with
disabilities in western Canada?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to say the
Government of Canada is working to ensure that people with
disabilities can participate fully in Canadian society.
We have recently announced employability assistance agreements
for people with disabilities with British Columbia and Manitoba.
Under the British Columbia agreement, the Government of Canada
will contribute $25.25 million annually over the next five years
to help the British Columbian government assist persons with
disabilities to find employment. Details of the agreements with
Manitoba and other western provinces will be available soon.
* * *
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Dick Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, last week the finance minister denied that cutting EI
premiums would create some jobs. However, last fall when he cut
20 cents from the EI premium he could not wait to tell the whole
world about all the jobs it was going to create.
On which occasion was the finance minister telling the truth?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased
that the hon. member draws attention to the job creation record
of this government. When we took office unemployment was at
11.4%. Since then 1.2 million jobs have been created by our
buoyant Canadian economy.
1455
We have the strongest job growth rate in the entire G-7. This
is a result of the measures we have put into force. We are the
first member of the G-7 to eliminate its deficit. We are now
paying down our debt. The figures we see today show record
business confidence. We had a gross rate in the first quarter
of—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Lévis.
* * *
[Translation]
SPIRIT OF COLUMBUS PLATFORM
Mr. Antoine Dubé (Lévis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is for
the Minister for International Trade. Since September 1996,
Davie industries has been negotiating financial guarantees for a
contract to rebuild the Brazilian oil platform Spirit of
Columbus.
Given that the platform has been anchored in Quebec City since
September 1997, that SDI has provided its share of the financial
guarantees, and that nearly 30% of the job is already completed,
why is the federal government dragging its feet in giving the
financial guarantees so that MIL Davie can complete this major
contract?
[English]
Hon. Sergio Marchi (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I met with ministers from Quebec on this
issue. I also directed EDC to work with its counterpart in
Quebec, la Société de développement du Québec. Both came up with
a single plan. The last time I checked the file both those
societies were working with Davie and the other stakeholders to
come to grips with the situation.
* * *
PUBLIC SERVICE
Ms. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker, today's
senior managers in the public service will receive performance
bonuses of up to 10% after having received pay raises of up to
19%. Services have been cut. Rank and file workers are being
penalized with wage freezes and court battles for pay equity. The
pay equity tribunal ruling is expected in July. Already the
Treasury Board president is hinting at appealing the decision.
Why will Treasury Board not treat all employees equally?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the increase in the salary mass for managers over four years will
be 7.96%. I have already indicated that we are ready to grant 2%
a year for the next four years to the various unions, which is
exactly the same percentage increase.
Already 10 of the groups have accepted to negotiate and have
concluded negotiations. On Thursday the auditors agreed to
figures of between 2% and 2.5%. Once again—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Fundy—Royal.
* * *
THE ENVIRONMENT
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC): Mr. Speaker, last
week I asked the environment minister to respond to the
environment commissioner's report on this government's handling
or mishandling of the environment.
This report clearly states that if the performance of the
government does not improve the environment and the health of
Canadians will be damaged. The commissioner states this
government has no plan to protect Canada's biodiversity, no
viable plan on climate change and it is failing to enforce its
own environmental assessment guidelines.
Why is this minister allowing the government to deliberately
abandon environment at the cabinet table?
Hon. Christine Stewart (Minister of the Environment,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this government has not abandoned the
environment agenda. It is very important to us.
We have important legislation before the House right now, the
Canadian Environmental Protection Act, which brings in very
important amendments allowing the government to enforce better
environmental quality for all Canadians.
As a nurse I am very concerned about the quality of our air and
our water. I am very concerned, as is the government, about
climate change. We want to protect our nature.
The Canadian Environmental Protection Act will allow us to
improve the quality of our air and our water. I will be bringing
in regulations this fall to do with sulphur in gasoline.
* * *
THE ECONOMY
Ms. Susan Whelan (Essex, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, there is
general agreement that Canada needs more computer experts and
engineers to thrive in a knowledge based economy.
What is the Secretary of State for Science, Research and
Technology doing to address the concerns raised by participants
in Ottawa at the congress of the social sciences and humanities
that social and cultural skills are also necessary in a knowledge
based economy?
Hon. Ronald J. Duhamel (Secretary of State (Science, Research
and Development)(Western Economic Diversification), Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, first let me congratulate the 8,000 plus participants at
the congress who come from a host of disciplines and whose wealth
of knowledge contributes to the quality of life of Canadians.
We are doing a great deal. There are two examples. The Social
Sciences and Humanities Research Council budget will be increased
to $103 million by the year 2000. The federal government is
funding a centre of excellence, Telelearning, that puts together
what the social sciences and other sciences are able to do.
In this case it gives Canadians the tools to adapt to the new
knowledge based economy.
* * *
1500
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Mike Scott (Skeena, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it has been
six months since the Delgamuukw decision was handed down by the
Supreme Court of Canada.
Ownership of every square inch of British Columbia is in doubt.
Industry is saying not one more nickel of investment until this
is settled.
My question is for the minister of Indian affairs. Other than
striking a committee to look at this matter, what is the minister
doing about it?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the whole intention of
writing modern land claims in British Columbia is to achieve
certainty.
Along with our partners, the province of British Columbia and
the first nations, we are working to respond not only to
Delgamuukw but to build on the B.C. treaty process.
I would note that the business community of British Columbia
supports the government getting on with settling land claims and
achieving certainty. I would hope the hon. member opposite would
include himself and his party in such an important undertaking.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[English]
COMMUNICATIONS SECURITY ESTABLISHMENT
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to section 32(1) I have the
honour to table, in both official languages, copies of the annual
report of the Communications Security Establishment commissioner.
* * *
[Translation]
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in
both official languages, the government's response to 18
petitions.
* * *
INTERPARLIAMENTARY DELEGATION
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau (Anjou—Rivière-des-Prairies, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have the honour to table, in both official languages,
the report of the 28th annual meeting of the Canada-France
interparliamentary association.
* * *
HOUSE COMMITTEES
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS AND NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Guy St-Julien (Abitibi, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have the honour
to present, in both official languages, the fourth report of the
Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern
Development.
Pursuant to its order of reference dated Tuesday, May 5, 1998,
the committee has considered Bill C-30, an act respecting the
powers of the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia in relation to education,
and has agreed to report it without amendment.
* * *
1505
[English]
INCOME TAX ACT
Hon. Charles Caccia (Davenport, Lib.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-412, an act to amend the Income Tax Act (food
expenses).
He said: Mr. Speaker, very briefly the purpose of the bill is
to allow people engaged in the bicycle courier business to deduct
certain food expenses from their taxable income.
The amendment would allow recognition of the fact that couriers
consume large amounts of extra fuel, so to speak, to perform
their duties. Those who use their cars for business purposes can
deduct expenses under certain circumstances. The bill is
intended to extend such benefits to bicycle couriers.
The policy goal is to encourage greater use of bicycle couriers,
given the health and environmental benefits of having fewer cars
and more bicycles on our city streets. This measure is also
intended to encourage bicycle couriers to file tax returns,
resulting in increased tax revenues for the federal government.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
PETITIONS
PUBLIC SAFETY OFFICERS
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
am pleased to present two petitions today. The first concerns
police officers and firefighters.
The petitioners would like to draw to the attention of the House
that our police officers and firefighters are required to place
their lives at risk on a daily basis as they execute their duties
and that employment benefits of those killed in the line of duty
do not adequately compensate their families.
The public mourns the loss of police officers and firefighters
killed in the line of duty and wish to support their families in
a tangible way in their time of need.
The petitioners therefore call upon parliament to establish a
public safety officers compensation fund for the benefit of
families of police officers and firefighters killed in the line
of duty.
TAXATION
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the second petition has to do with the family.
The petitioners would like to draw to the attention of the House
that managing the family home and caring for preschool children
is an honourable profession which has not been recognized for its
value to our society.
The petitioners also concur with the National Forum on Health
that the Income Tax Act discriminates against families who choose
to provide care in the home to preschool children.
The petitioners therefore call upon parliament to eliminate tax
discrimination against families who choose to provide direct
parental care to preschool children.
HIGHWAYS
Mr. Lee Morrison (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, it is my honour today to present three petitions.
The first one bears 1,385 signatures of electors resident in New
Brunswick, primarily in the districts of Havelock, Petitcodiac
and Salisbury.
These electors are concerned with the federal-provincial
agreements for financing segments of highways which do not
preclude the collection of provincial highway tolls on jointly
financed projects.
The petitioners therefore call upon parliament, specifically
with reference to one existing road, to terminate any plans which
would allow future tolls to be collected on the River Glade to
Moncton portion of highway No. 2 in New Brunswick.
The second petition is also with respect to highways. This is
about the fifth or sixth petition I have received with respect to
the death strip in western Saskatchewan. It brings the total
number of signatures I have now presented in the House on this
subject to 2,210.
The petitioners draw attention to the fact that the two lane
highway between Gull Lake, Saskatchewan, and the Alberta border
on the Trans-Canada Highway has caused the deaths of 39 people in
the last 20 years.
They humbly call upon parliament to instruct its servants to
immediately commence negotiations with the Government of
Saskatchewan to jointly fund the upgrading of this vital national
transportation link by constructing two additional lanes.
I might note that today on another death strip on the
Trans-Canada three people were killed near Golden, B.C., again
because of the decrepit condition of the highway.
RAIL LINES
Mr. Lee Morrison (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the final petition contains 36 signatures from residents
of Saskatchewan.
1510
This is one of several that have already been presented in the
House calling upon parliament to immediately legislate a
moratorium on rail line abandonments in the three prairie
provinces pending completion of Mr. Justice Estey's review and
the presentation of his report on the grain handling system.
ABORTIONS
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is an
honour to present two petitions dealing with the same subject.
The first petition has been signed by 615 petitioners who
petition parliament to support the motion of the representative
from Yorkton—Melville that in the opinion of the House the
government should bring in legislation in accordance with
provisions of the Referendum Act, 1992, which would require a
binding national referendum to be held at the time of the next
election to ask voters whether or not they are in favour of
government funding of medically unnecessary abortions.
The second petition is on exactly the same subject, the same
motion. It is signed by 125 petitioners who present it to
parliament for its consideration.
CRTC
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I rise to
represent people mostly from my riding but others as well who
have a problem with the CRTC.
An executive summary of their petition would be that they want
to preserve freedom of religion, conscience and expression, and
to stop the CRTC policy which seems to systematically favour
sexually explicit and violent programming over what is called
good, wholesome programming.
* * *
[Translation]
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
suggest that all questions be allowed to stand.
The Deputy Speaker: Is that agreed?
[English]
Mr. Jean Dubé (Madawaska—Restigouche, PC): Mr. Speaker,
I rise on a point of order. I have been up many times over the
past several months on Question No. 21.
Question No. 21 was asked on October 3, 1997. It is a long time
to wait for an answer to a question. I am sure the parliamentary
secretary is doing his best to get the question answered.
I asked the question last week. Will we get the answer before
the break? Could the parliamentary secretary answer?
Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Speaker, the member is quite right.
I know he has been following Question No. 21 very closely.
I pointed out previously that we have received almost 1,000
petitions and we have responded to 70% of them, the vast majority
within 45 days. In the case of the questions we have answered
approximately 75%.
Question No. 21, as the member knows, involves consultations
with every minister in cabinet. That is what is taking the time.
I assure the member he will have a reply as soon as is humanly
possible.
The Deputy Speaker: Shall the remaining questions stand?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[Translation]
SUPPLY
ALLOTTED DAY—UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
The House resumed consideration of the motion.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to advise you that
I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the member for
Waterloo—Wellington.
I am pleased to rise today to speak to the motion before us. I
believe it is important to set the record straight with regard
to the Bloc's motion and the employment insurance program.
Lately it has become obvious that the Bloc is living in the
past.
Instead of moving forward and looking for ways to help people
escape unemployment and go back to work, the Bloc is still
recommending ways for people to draw employment insurance as
long as possible.
The Bloc is still recommending ways to foster greater dependence
on employment insurance while being critical of the new
employment insurance plan designed to help people get back to
work.
1515
[English]
We have no interest in going back. Our government and our
reforms are about moving forward and helping Canadians meet the
challenges of the 21st century. The old EI system was in need of
total overhaul. The system was 25 years old and needed to be
changed to adapt to today's labour market. It was totally
focused on passive income support. It did nothing to help
unemployed Canadians move toward work.
The new economy requires Canadians to constantly upgrade their
skills and knowledge in order to be competitive in the world of
work. The new employment insurance system is precisely about
finding a balance between giving people the temporary support
they need when they lose a job and helping people with the tools
they need to get back to work.
We needed to reform employment insurance, to modernize the
system, to make it fairer and more equitable, to break an ongoing
cycle of dependence on employment insurance, to give unemployed
Canadians access to programs that would help them get back to
work and try to create jobs in areas of high unemployment.
[Translation]
We are convinced that, contrary to what Bloc members are saying,
Canadians would rather work than receive employment insurance
benefits. We believe they want to retrain to acquire the
necessary skills to find employment in the new economy. We
believe Canadians are more optimistic regarding their future
than what the Bloc will ever say in this matter.
Canadians' optimism, coupled with our budget policies, helps
foster an economic climate favourable to job creation. Since
1993, over 1.2 million new jobs have been created in Canada.
Last year alone a further 450,000 Canadians found jobs in
Canada. The unemployment rate is at its lowest in nearly eight
years. In every province the number of people on welfare is
down, including in Quebec where it is the lowest it has ever
been in the past five years.
Our review of the old unemployment insurance plan revealed a
need for change in various areas. The old plan was based on
weeks worked rather than hours. It was unfair. Whether you
worked 15 hours or 60 hours a week did not make any difference.
Your benefits were calculated according to the number of weeks
you had worked. If you worked fewer than 15 hours a week, you
were just not eligible for unemployment insurance.
For thousands of workers, particularly women, this meant being
trapped in a ghetto of 14 hour a week jobs because employers
avoided paying EI premiums by giving them less than 15 hours of
work every week.
When these workers lost their jobs, they did not have access to
income support or any other form of support to find another job.
Now, for the first time, all part time workers are covered under
the plan. Unemployment insurance was a passive income support
system. However, a passive approach does not make people's lives
better. It only maintains them in their current situation
longer.
It may be a good thing for the opposition, but not for the many
workers looking for help to find a new job, a better job, and
not only for a cheque every two weeks.
Our government chose to establish a plan designed to help
workers prepare their future with optimism. That is why we came
up with a series of active employment measures: to help people
get back to work.
1520
That is why we have taken part of the savings generated by the
employment insurance reform and reinvested them in measures that
help people rejoin the workforce instead of maintaining them on
employment insurance.
That is why we are transferring $2.7 billion to the Quebec
government, so that active employment measures designed to help
people go back to work can be developed locally to meet local
needs.
It is because of this employment insurance reform that we were
in a position to negotiate with the Quebec government a historic
agreement on the development of the labour market. That
agreement led to the solving of a difficult issue with the
Quebec government, one that pleases everyone and shows that
Canadian federalism is being modernized and is adjusting.
In order to help people get back to work, we invested $300
million in the transitional jobs fund. The purpose of that fund
is to promote employment, specifically in very high unemployment
regions.
We anticipate that this investment, made over a three year
period, will ultimately result in the creation of 30,000 new
jobs.
[English]
We also felt that unemployment insurance encouraged dependence.
The passive approach lured many Canadians into an ongoing cycle
of short term jobs and unemployment insurance. Worst of all,
studies showed us that easy access to employment insurance often
encouraged young people to leave school and start on a cycle of
short term work and employment insurance. Part of our changes
had to be based on trying to break this cycle of dependence and
to help people find and take available work.
[Translation]
Have employment insurance reforms succeeded in helping
Canadians? The Bloc should ask the woman in Sidney, Nova Scotia,
who is working 14 hours per week in a departmental store. Under
the former system, that woman would not have qualified, but now,
after 30 weeks of work, she is eligible for benefits.
The Bloc should also ask the young father from Trois-Rivières,
who is working at three different jobs for 14 hours per week.
Under the old system, none of these jobs would have qualified
him, but that person can now collect benefits after 11 weeks of
work.
We could also put the same question to the young woman from the
Cornwall area who, through our positive employment measures,
received financial assistance to help her plan and set up her
own business, after losing her job at the local office of a
large insurance company. Her business, Excellent
Secretarial Services, is doing very well indeed.
I think it is important to correct a misleading and incorrect
statement the Bloc Quebecois keeps making about the negative
impact of our employment insurance reforms on women.
I would like the Bloc members to tell us why they are against
our employment insurance reforms, which eliminated the 14 hour
trap for women. Around 270,000 women are now eligible for
employment insurance for the first time.
Close to 70% of those who are getting the new family income
supplement are women who now qualify for this supplement.
We are more ambitious than the Bloc members. What we want is for
workers, whether they are young people, women or experienced, to
really be able to remain in the labour force. And should they
lose their jobs, they will get from our system the tools and the
means they need to get back to work, unlike the Bloc members who
are simply trying to ensure the people stay on employment
insurance benefits as long as possible. It is their only goal.
1525
[English]
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to have this opportunity, as brief as it
is, to ask the hon. minister a question and put a comment or two
forward.
It seemed to me at least, unless I was getting the wrong
impression, that he was bragging during his presentation about
the 270,000 women who are now covered under EI for the first time
with the changes brought forward by the government. He was
bragging about the new eligibility criteria. He was quoting
statistics.
I refer to a working mother in my riding I recently heard from.
This lady works as a permanent part time employee with the school
district as a bus driver. Recently she had to take a six week
medical leave of her duties and applied for medical benefits
through employment insurance. After waiting several weeks she
finally received her cards to fill out. Shortly after a letter
from HRDC arrived informing her she did not qualify for any
benefits. She did not have enough hours. A claimant needs 700
hours in a 52 week period and her total number of hours was only
648.
Her concern is, and I agree, that she is paying for insurance
that she is ineligible to collect. Legislation does not take
into account consideration of this scenario and there are no
exceptions to the rules.
This woman is not alone. I think these people see EI as simply
another tax. When some individuals call EI premiums a payroll
tax, that is exactly what it is. It is especially true when
those individuals are ineligible to collect benefits. To take
those premiums off their pay, as small as it is, is unethical
when they are in a situation where they have this additional tax,
and it is simply a tax because they cannot get any benefits. We
already have the highest tax in the G-7.
I wonder if the hon. minister would care to comment and refer
his comments to the situation with this working mother and the
fact that while on medical leave she was unable to get any
benefits despite the fact that she pays her premiums like all
other working Canadians.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased
to see that the Reform Party is now hinting that maybe we should
make it easier to give benefits to Canadians. I do not know
exactly what is the Reform position. It is the first time I have
heard such a statement from the Reform Party which normally
thinks we are not tough enough on unemployed Canadians and that
we should have even more difficult access to the employment
insurance aspect.
In the case of the woman he raised, she did not have the number
of hours to qualify. It is pretty obvious that if a worker has
not reached the number of hours to be covered by the system at
this stage, they cannot have unemployment benefits.
When she has worked the additional 52 hours she needs to
qualify, whether in this job or some other job, she will be
covered by the employment insurance system because every hour
counts and we will add it to what she has already worked.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvan Bernier (Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Human Resources Development should
try to put himself in the shoes of ordinary Canadians. He gave
us the example of a woman from Sydney.
I will try to be brief. In a region such as the Gaspé Peninsula,
which is severely affected by TAGS, where active measures are
sorely lacking, where nothing is being done and which is being
deprived of $50 million because of reduced benefits and reduced
eligibility, how does the minister think that people can find
new jobs? Why can he not consider restoring some fairness in the
system?
I would like to quote from his leader. I will be very brief. The
quote is from a letter sent in 1993 to a group called
Action-Chômage, in which the current Prime Minister described the
measures put forward by the Conservatives as being very
coercive.
1530
He said: “While they seem to show compassion on the eve of the
election, they are forgetting the names of the victims”.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew: Mr. Speaker, I can assure you of one
thing. Our government is sensitive to the concerns of these
Canadians. The reason we have established a transitional jobs
fund is to create jobs in areas where unemployment is too high.
That is why we want to invest more money in high employment
areas.
We have seen that, so far, in Atlantic and eastern Canada, our
reform has helped a lot of unemployed people find work to
accumulate the additional number of weeks needed to maintain
their level of benefits. I think this incentive to find work
seems to be having positive results so far.
Mr. Yvan Bernier: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I believe the Minister of Human
Resources misled the House when he spoke of the transitional
jobs fund.
I would like all Canadians to take note that the fund—-
The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I think the hon. member is
rising on a point of debate. If there is a discrepancy between
what the minister said and what the hon. member understood, that
is not a point of order.
[English]
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
it is both unfortunate and frustrating that the House is once
again embroiled in a debate based on an outdated understanding of
the employment insurance system.
There can be no debate that the progressive and equitable
reforms to employment insurance introduced by this government are
good reforms. They are good for Canadians out of work, good for
the economy and good for the country.
Canadians inherently know this and certainly the residents of my
riding of Waterloo—Wellington know it and understand it, and
this is in fact true.
With the new Employment Insurance Act this government is helping
Canadians to find work. Instead of just doling out cheques, we
now respond to the real employment needs of people who have
fallen on hard times and we tailor strategies to help them
succeed.
While our hon. colleagues on the opposite side of the Chamber
seem stuck in a time warp, the so-called good old days when the
system perpetuated dependency, we instead are moving forward,
shifting the focus to one of dignity and self-sufficiency by
creating meaningful opportunities for all Canadians.
The new employment insurance system both reflects and responds
to today's labour market. Technological revolution and global
trade are rapidly changing the world of work. Jobs are
disappearing in some sectors, while new positions are being
created in others which require different skills.
Intense international competition is also pushing Canada to
produce higher educated and higher skilled workers. This new
reality is very difficult for individuals who find themselves
falling short of these requirements or who are already left
behind. That is why we are investing in programs that are more
targeted, more results oriented and proven to work for the people
who need them.
The new employment insurance system is designed to help
unemployed Canadians not only cope with but capitalize on the new
economy. We are enabling individuals temporarily out of work to
acquire the necessary skills to secure jobs in the new working
world.
We are helping Canadians, especially those most at risk of
exclusion, to adjust to the knowledge-based economy. We are
empowering them to adapt to economic change so they can once
again lead productive and satisfying lives.
Employment insurance reforms are fundamentally about finding a
balance, about giving people the temporary support they need when
they lose a job and providing people with the tools they need to
get back to work.
We do not have to choose between economics and people. Success
is a question of making the right choices in order to build a
better society.
Societal development goes hand in hand with economic
development. As our population becomes more productive, our
country will be more productive.
1535
An equally important benefit for all Canadians is that the new
employment insurance system allows us to work more efficiently
and less expensively, providing the public with the services they
need and the services they can afford.
Long term affordability of the system is at the heart of the
reserve in the employment insurance account. The government must
pay employment insurance benefits in all circumstances, even when
the account has a deficit, as it did during most of the 1980s and
the early 1990s. The reserve means that the money is there when
it is most needed, during an economic downturn, and ensures that
we do not have to raise premiums at the worst possible time.
In modernizing the system we also make it fairer and more
equitable. For the first time, every hour of work counts.
Counting total hours instead of meeting a minimum number of weeks
makes it easier for most people, particularly women, young people
and seasonal workers, to satisfy entrance requirements. Whether
we talk about the part time worker, the mother to be who will be
able to collect maternity benefits, the construction worker laid
off during the winter months or the student working as a
department store clerk, employment insurance benefits have been
restructured to strengthen the value of work. The system now
recognizes that whether work is full time, part time or
integrated from time to time, every Canadian's contribution
counts.
Perhaps the most important improvements are enhanced active
employment measures that are helping countless unemployed
Canadians get back into the workforce. Wage subsidies, earning
supplements, self-employment assistance, job creation
partnerships and skills, loans and grants are giving many a real
chance to start new careers.
I remind my hon. colleagues that we have broadened eligibility
so that all Canadians who received employment insurance or
unemployment insurance in the past three years can benefit from
these measures. So too can people who collected maternity or
parental benefits during the last five years and then withdrew
from the labour force to care for their child. This means that
up to 45% of provincial social assistance recipients are eligible
for active employment measures to get the skills and the
experience they need in order to re-enter the workforce.
Improved claimant assistance such as counselling and closer case
management will also help unemployed people return to work as
quickly as possible. That ultimately is what the changes are all
about, helping Canadians to find and keep good jobs.
The labour market development agreements with the provinces,
long sought after by the province of Quebec, ensure that active
employment measures are tailored to local needs.
The Bloc fails to acknowledge that these new measures, $2.7
billion over the next five years in Quebec alone, are financed
from savings the government is now achieving as a result of
employment insurance reform. Without these savings the
government would not have the necessary funds to pay for skills
upgrading which is essential to becoming more employable.
Canadians do not want a handout, they want a hand up. They want
the chance to acquire new skills and advance their education.
They want to be able to provide a better standard of living and
quality of life for their families. We must enable them to
achieve their dreams.
We would do no one any favours if we adopted the regressive
measures proposed by my hon. colleagues. They would have us
return to the days of passive income support. They would deny
individuals the opportunity to upgrade their skills and make
themselves more employable.
I point to the government's impressive track record as proof
that our approach is working. The unemployment rate is at its
lowest level in almost eight years. Since the beginning of 1997
543,000 jobs have been created in Canada.
Equally interesting, there was a 6% decline in job losses during
the first year of reform. So it is not surprising that the
number of beneficiaries and the total employment insurance
benefits paid out have decreased since March 1997. Clearly we
are on the right track, so let us stay on it and let us make sure
we carry it forward.
[Translation]
The federal government has worked unceasingly to keep the
Canadian economy on a solid foundation.
The federal government will continue to provide programs which
meet Canadians' expectations and needs.
1540
The federal government will continue to look after the interests
of all Canadians.
[English]
For all the sound and reasoned arguments put forward by myself
and the members of my caucus today, I urge my fellow
parliamentarians to set aside this unnecessary motion. Let us
work together to create conditions conducive to job creation and
economic growth. Let us work together to help Canadians get back
to work.
[Translation]
Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I would like
to respond to the speech by my hon. colleague and to ask him a
question.
I always react to categorical remarks and to accusations that
the Bloc Quebecois is living in the past. I believe we live in
the present, but we do not share the current government's
concept of what the present is. Allow me to explain.
Up to this date, close to $16 billion have been collected in
indirect taxes. I call them indirect taxes because Canadians
and Quebeckers pay provincial income tax, federal income tax,
and both provincial and federal sales taxes, and then on their
weekly paycheque another indirect tax is deducted, which adds up
to $7 billion or $8 billion each year.
In my opinion consumers have had it with government taxes, and
this one is an indirect tax.
There is not even any provision for it in the government's
books. It is sneakily collected from all workers and all
employers, and it is years since this government has contributed
to the fund. Now it has taken upon itself to set the
contribution rate as it pleases and to adjust this indirect tax
to pay down its deficit.
Perhaps my colleague could answer the following. What is his
answer to the voters in his riding when they say they are tired
of paying taxes, taxes and more taxes, income and otherwise, and
now just one more? What is his answer to this, particularly when
we have already been told that in this government's employment
enhancement measures a 10 cent reduction per $100 represents
the creation of 30,000 jobs?
This is not true, according to the way we see things.
People are having problems with employment insurance, which is
an indirect tax on people. What is his answer to his
constituents?
[English]
Mr. Lynn Myers: Mr. Speaker, I want to say at the outset
that there is a lot of evidence that we as a government can put
forward in terms of the kinds of things we are doing for
Canadians from coast to coast. I reference specifically the
programs that are in place to assist workers at a time when they
need it most, which is most important. I think Canadians across
the country understand that and respect it.
The hon. member talks about being in the past. I was doing some
research into what the Bloc has recently introduced by way of
private members' bills on this particular issue. What those
bills would do, in effect, would be to reverse the EI reforms
that we as a government have put in place. I would reference,
for example, Bill C-295, Bill C-296, Bill C-297, Bill C-298 and
Bill C-300. These five private members' bills would turn back the
clock and reverse the kind of progressiveness that we as a
government are ensuring is in place for all Canadians no matter
where they live.
I would also point out to the hon. member that $2.7 billion over
five years is going to Quebec alone in order to ensure that there
are active employment measures in place. That spells good news
not only for Quebeckers, but for Canadians all across this great
country of ours.
We as a government are moving in the right direction with
foresight, according to the needs of Canadians.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, what I would
like to know is what stings a government when it comes into
office.
I have here a letter from the Prime Minister sent to a region in
Quebec, which says, and I will quote briefly from it, “Clearly
the government is not very concerned about the victims of the
economic crisis—he was talking about the Conservatives at the
time—because instead of going after the heart of the problem,
they go after the unemployed”.
1545
Now they are in power. Does this mean that they were living in
the past in 1993? Were they stung by a bee as they took office
so they could go after the unemployed too? It is shameful. I
would like the hon. member to tell me what stung the Liberal
members.
[English]
Mr. Lynn Myers: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member
opposite for the question.
I am astounded at the fact that the NDP in this case would take
us on in terms of what our position is. It really has no
financial credibility. As members all know, that party's
election platform, which was widely rejected by Canadians,
proposed to spend an additional $18 billion in four years if it
had been elected. It is the leader of the NDP who told Canadians
that she never planned on forming a government, so I guess those
kinds of outrageous statements can be made to try to rope the
people in.
The people are not fooled by such nonsense. Canadians have
worked too hard to eliminate the deficit to allow their
government to go on a free wheeling and irresponsible tax and
spending spree.
When the member opposite from the NDP makes those kinds of
outrageous statements, it is incumbent upon those of us on the
government side to ensure that that kind of nonsense is put in
its place. It has no place in this great country of ours and as a
government we will ensure that.
[Translation]
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I will
share my time with my colleague, the member for
Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok.
I am pleased to join my colleagues, the member for
Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques and the
member for Québec East, and to take part in the debate on the
opposition motion they presented in this House, which reads as
follows:
That the House castigate the government for the catastrophic
effects of its reforms to unemployment insurance; for having
taken over funds destined for unemployed persons; and for its
inability to adapt the unemployment insurance system to the new
realities of the labour market, particularly where young people,
women and self-employed persons are concerned.
It was not yesterday that the Bloc Quebecois started criticizing
the reforms to unemployment insurance and its devastating
effects on the people of Quebec and Canada and more especially
on groups of workers in vulnerable situations on the labour
market, such as young people and women, who are being pushed
into the maze of social assistance.
Last week, the Bloc Quebecois initiated an employment insurance
week to draw the government's attention to the experience of the
unemployed in Quebec and Canada.
As we might expect, the Liberal government again displayed its
insensitivity to these groups of men and women, who, after
contributing to the plan, are denied access to it when they need
it most.
However the media did not ignore the questions raised by the
Bloc Quebecois when it reminded us that only 41% of unemployed
workers get benefits and that only 26% of young workers—one in
four—who contribute to the plan end up getting benefits.
All of last week, we have seen and heard reports on television
and on the radio highlighting the fact that the employment
insurance plan is inadequate, given the conditions on the labour
market. This is employment insurance in name only. We should
rather be talking about a deficit insurance plan, because the
government has had no qualms about diverting EI funds to erase
the deficit first and now, with hardly any embarrassment, to
build up budget surpluses.
This whole situation is utterly unacceptable, and groups all
over Quebec are condemning the employment insurance plan and the
government's policies that have thrown so many people into
poverty.
We have to stop this bleeding of public funds. The employment
insurance should be redesigned to ensure a better balanced
support for various groups of workers in Quebec and in Canada.
1550
It is nothing short of shameful that the EI fund is bursting at
the seams while the federal government has to admit the sorry
state of poverty in Canada. In 1989, 14.5% of children lived in
families below the poverty line. There are now 20.5%. There is a
direct link between this and the finance minister's drastic cuts
in social programs.
The federal government can try all it wants to counter through
piecemeal programs the impact of poverty on children in Quebec
and Canada, but it should first give the heads of single parent
families better opportunities to enter the labour market and
support them in between jobs.
It is the same for young Quebeckers and Canadians who hold
precarious jobs, contract jobs for a few weeks or a few months.
This is the reality of the workforce for several of them.
And to encourage them to accumulate this invaluable work
experience that will allow them to apply for better paying and
more stable jobs, the human resources development minister has
found nothing better than to impose a minimum of 910 hours of
work on these newcomers during their first year of employment.
This is what I could call an employment insurance welcome tax.
Indeed, it is a welcome tax for new members in the workforce,
workers who will be the foundation of our economy and who will
ensure the existence of our social programs in the future. Is
this not a situation that should be of concern?
This is quite a gift from the Liberal government to our young
people.
On one side, it pushes them toward welfare and on the other,
with red flags in hand, it claims to help these young people
with the millennium scholarships slogan. Once again, Quebec's
student group representatives came to say no to the Prime
Minister and their speeches were eloquent, according to those
who had the opportunity to listen to the RDI special program
this morning.
The Bloc Quebecois is more valuable than ever, given the
arrogance of this government that pretends to be sensitive to
the Canadian and Quebec people. Our clashing voice in this
stagnant pool of Liberal members who are waiting for their
leader's cue, even when their personal beliefs are at stake, is
echoing the voice of Quebeckers who have been let down by this
dominating and centralizing federal system.
In the riding of Jonquière especially, my team and I have
received many testimonies from people affected by the cuts in
the employment insurance system.
Among the situations experienced by my fellow citizens, there is
the sad situation of several part time workers who used to be
eligible for unemployment insurance and are now unable to
accumulate the number of hours required in a 52 week period.
Seasonal workers, especially construction workers in our region,
are also greatly affected by the employment insurance reform.
For these seasonal workers, it is almost impossible to
accumulate the number of hours required to be eligible for
employment insurance, because work periods in the construction
field are limited and the reform encourages clandestine work.
We have been told that some employers take advantage of the
situation. They hire workers at a lower rate and do not pay any
premium for these workers, which explains why about a hundred
honest workers complain every week, because they are not
eligible for employment insurance or welfare.
Other problems with section 17 of the employment insurance
regulations have been brought to our attention. Some people who
work for the same company but live in different regions, like
the Chicoutimi—Jonquière area and northern Quebec, are being
treated differently under the current employment insurance
scheme.
1555
The number of hours worked to become eligible and the number of
weeks of benefits differ from one region to another, which means
that a resident of Alma could receive benefits during nine weeks
more than a resident of Jonquière.
If, as the Minister of Human Resources Development put it, he is
really “following this reform very closely in order to ensure
that it continues to serve Canadians well”, I would invite him
to take note of all the flaws the Bloc Quebecois has spotted in
his reform of the employment insurance program.
Last week, the health minister announced a new subsidy to
ParticipAction.
Let me encourage this organization to launch a new fitness
program especially designed for the Liberal members, something
to stimulate their brains and help them connect with today's
reality, so they can notice the living conditions of the
unemployed, since almost half of the contributors are no longer
eligible for employment insurance benefits.
Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I was very
impressed by the speech of the hon. member for Jonquière. I know
that she is an extremely hard working woman and that she is also
very present in her riding.
What fascinates me most is the difference between the comments
of the member for Jonquière and those of the Minister of Human
Resources Development. My colleague referred to the
insensitivity of the minister and of the Liberal members.
I wonder if there are people in her riding who tell her that
they have a hard time making ends meet at the end of the month,
or that they used to qualify for a much better system that
allowed them to make the transition to another job, whereas now
they are pretty much left on their own.
Because they are no longer eligible, these people end up on
welfare, which means they have to rely on the state.
The minister continues to say “our government does not live in
the past, but in the present”. This is another ill-conceived
notion of the present. The minister says that they are taking
active employment measures, that they are creating a
transitional jobs fund. Incidentally, there is not one penny
left in that fund.
The minister is taking technocratic measures. I am sure the hon.
member for Jonquière could provide us with examples of people
who are in dire straits, people who, at the end of the month,
have very little food left to put on the table, people who are
overwhelmed by their situation.
I wonder if the hon. member could elaborate on the insensitivity
of that department, and compare it with the sensitivity she
shows in her views and in her good work in the riding of
Jonquière.
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold: Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for
asking me such an important question.
The people who come to me in my riding are people who are no
longer in the system. They do not qualify for employment
insurance or for welfare. The lack of understanding on the part
of this government for people who work hard is beyond me.
My area has the highest rate of unemployment in Canada. It is
nothing to be proud of. But I can tell you that people who come
to me are people who have unstable jobs, who work 14, 15 or 16
hours a week and do not accumulate enough hours to qualify for
employment insurance.
They will certainly not get rich by working only a few hours at
minimum wage. At the end of the day, their employment insurance
cheque will not amount to much.
All they want is to be able to survive, but the new employment
insurance reform does not take this into account. People are not
treated with common sense as they should be.
1600
I wonder when the minister and his government are going to have
the same common sense as ordinary people. The people in our area
do not steal or cheat, they are hard working.
If I contribute to a health insurance plan, it means that when I
am sick I am entitled to benefits. But people are paying
employment insurance contributions and they cannot even benefit
from them. They want protection against something they fear,
protection that will help them get through tough times.
But no. The minister opposite and his colleagues have decided
that even if you contribute to an insurance plan, you cannot
draw on it unless you meet some ironclad criteria. This is
unacceptable; this is the reason why the Bloc Quebecois and the
people in my area are denouncing these social iniquities.
Mr. Yvan Bernier (Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, I will give a brief historic overview. Just from
the name of my riding, which includes the four RCMs in the Gaspé
and the Magdalen Islands, it is obvious that we represent a
large area.
My region is a resource region where seasonal jobs represent
more than one third of all jobs.
For the benefit of the minister opposite, there are
approximately 12,000 seasonal jobs in the Gaspé and the Magdalen
Islands, mainly in farming, fishing and forestry and the
processing of these products, as well as the tourist industry,
including lodging and food services. That pretty much describes
our seasonal jobs.
The proportion of seasonal work in my region is three times that
in the rest of Quebec. This means that, in the Gaspé and the
Magdalen Islands, there are three times as many people on EI,
10.7%, compared to the Quebec average of 3.9%.
With a labour market characterized by seasonal variations in
employment, my riding was hard hit by the EI reform.
Statistics from Human Resources Development Canada show that,
since 1993, the number of EI recipients in my riding has dropped
by 4,000, or one-third, but the number of jobs did not increase
in the same proportion.
According to the HRDC figures, changes to the employment
insurance plan have reduced by $30 million the funds generated
in my region.
In addition to seasonal jobs, there is a high proportion of part
time jobs in the Gaspé Peninsula and the Magdalen Islands. In
fact, 70% of local jobs are either part time or seasonal,
compared with 46% in Quebec.
But regions like the Gaspé and the Magdalen Islands are
particularly hard hit by the tightening of eligibility criteria.
One of the disastrous consequences of decisions made by the
government opposite was that, as figures from the 1991 census
showed, the average household income in the Gaspé was $34,800,
compared with $40,800 in Quebec as a whole, a $6,000 difference.
Between 1987 and 1995, we experienced a 15% drop in jobs in the
Gaspé. These jobs have not been replaced, as shown by the growth
in unemployment, which went from 16.4% in 1987, to 20.2% in
1995, to 25.7% in 1997.
Another disastrous consequence of the blind decisions made by
the people over there is that the people are leaving. In the
past 10 years, 7,300 people have left our region, a 7% drop in
our population.
With figures like these, we in the Gaspé and the Magdalen
Islands have the dubious distinction of being possibly the
poorest region in Canada. It is not something we want to be
known for.
The employment insurance program is a real catastrophe for
regions where unemployment is rampant. Only one in two jobless
people is eligible.
1605
Would you buy life insurance if you had only a 50% chance of any
death benefits being paid? There is only one thing that is
certain, Mr. Speaker, and that is that we are all going to die
one day, but if we count on federal government coverage, our
widows will not live very high off the hog.
The employment insurance program is also catastrophic for
regions with flourishing employment and a low unemployment rate.
Employers and workers thought they were paying into insurance
that would provide a measure of protection in case of job loss,
but that is not the case. The workers in those regions are
directly funding federal programs they never asked for, and on
which they were not consulted in the least.
All the foregoing was just a bit of an overview of the situation
in my riding.
My colleagues have spoken before me, but I would like to touch
on the various measures presented by the Bloc Quebecois as
private members' bills. It would be nice if some of the hon.
members over there, even those in government, would adopt them
as their own and help them through. I am talking about relaxing
the eligibility criteria.
The minister has told us about a lady from Sydney who, much to
her credit, worked 14 hours a week for 30 weeks. But the
minister is misleading the House in saying that the lady was not
eligible for employment insurance before. This lady needs 910
hours. The minister does not know his multiplication tables,
then, because in his example 14 times 30 is 420. Strike 1 for
the minister.
He has also told us just now that there is a transitional job
creation fund.
I dare him to rise in this House and tell us how much money is
left in that fund. Not money that has already been committed,
but money that is left to be spent. He said that the program
will expire in 1999. How many projects can be submitted? Is
there any money left, yes or no?
Strike three: the same minister—and I hope he or his
parliamentary secretary will have the courage to rise—told us
that, as a second active job creation measure, he transferred
$2.7 billion through administrative agreements with the province
of Quebec. That is absolutely false on two points. The amount of
$2.7 billion is not only for Quebec, but for Canada as a whole.
The worst part is that they are thumbing their noses at us in
this House.
Unless I am mistaken, in a memo that I have here regarding this
$2.7 billion, the agreements provide that this money cannot be
spent until 2002. The minister has knowingly misled the House on
three points, which I have just mentioned.
If Minister Saint Peter ever has to face Our Lord Jesus Christ,
well I just told you that the cock crew three times. He misled
the House three times, and that has to be rectified.
If nobody rises on the other side in a few moments, I will take
it as meaning that the members opposite are perfectly capable of
saying anything they want but do not have the courage to right
their wrongs. This is totally unacceptable.
I would like that the Prime Minister was there at the time, on
the opposition side.
I do not know if my colleagues read this letter in its entirety
earlier, but it speaks volumes.
The letter, signed by the member for Shawinigan, is dated
February 17, 1993 and was sent to a group called Action-Chômage
from Kamouraska.
The Deputy Speaker: I have to interrupt the member. He knows my
knowledge of the French language is not perfect. I heard what he
said and I inquired as to the English translation. He said that
the minister has misled the House.
1610
This is unparliamentary and I would ask the member to withdraw
what he said, namely that the minister has misled the House.
I hope the member will do this immediately.
Mr. Yvan Bernier: Mr. Speaker, I will withdraw these words if
they are deemed unparliamentary, but could the clerks at the
table suggest to the Chair and to me another way of describing
what the minister has done.
I have pointed out three statements in the minister's remarks
that are incorrect. If this is unparliamentary, I am at a loss
as to how this should be said.
The Deputy Speaker: There are always differences between members
about what a member has said and what another member thinks he
has said.
In this case, the minister said something and the hon. member
for Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok disagrees. They
harbour different views. But it is obvious the minister did not
do what the hon. member has accused him of doing, because there
is a difference in opinion, and the hon. member was not
convinced by the minister's arguments.
The hon. member did not err, although the minister may have a
different opinion.
There are differences like that all the time. It is the nature
of debate in the House, but the hon. member cannot use
unparliamentary terms to say that the minister did this or that.
All members always want to speak the truth in the House, but the
question of knowing what the truth is has been a matter for
debate from time to time.
I know the hon. member can participate in the debate like all
other members without using those words, and I thank him for
withdrawing them.
Mr. Yvan Bernier: Mr. Speaker, I thank you, but if this is the
new way of putting it, I have to say I profoundly disagree with
the minister.
It is nevertheless all to your credit, Mr. Speaker, that you
picked up on my words, when I would have expected the minister
to defend his honour himself.
I will close with a quote from the member for Shawinigan, who
wrote the following to an Action-chômage group in February 1993.
He said, about the Conservative government of the time, “Instead
of going after the heart of the problem, they are going after
the unemployed. These measures will have troubling
repercussions, because they discourage workers”. The current
Prime Minister went on to say “When the people have an
opportunity to speak in 1993, there will be a change in course.
I am sure that a new team offering new approaches and policies
will help Canadians recover the confidence and hope they lost
with the present government”. He was still talking about the
Conservatives. The signature is that of the member for
Shawinigan.
In closing, I would like to sing part of a famous
song by Félix Leclerc, which goes like this:
On the eve of election
He'll call you his son
The following day, a hundred to one
Your name he will shun
And that is exactly what happened.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, first I would
like to congratulate my colleague from
Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok for his presentation
aimed at illustrating the problem we have in our region. In the
Gaspé and the Acadian peninsulas, the problem is about the same.
1615
I ask my colleague whether he finds it acceptable for the
present Prime Minister to accuse the former Conservative
government as my predecessor, Doug Young, did by saying that
this would be disastrous for New Brunswick. I would like to know
what he thinks about this.
As I said earlier to my colleague on the other side of the
House, what happened to the Liberals between the time they were
in opposition and the day they took office? Something happened
to them, and the member, who has more experience than me, can
perhaps explain this.
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member for
Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok may respond.
Mr. Yvan Bernier: Mr. Speaker, I hope that when you name my
riding, my time is not shortened accordingly.
I note, with my friend from Acadie—Bathurst, that this is
deplorable. This may also be the reason why the people have lost
confidence in politicians, because others who came before you
and me did not keep their promises. They made all kinds of
promises, they promised to look after their constituents'
well-being but they did not deliver.
During the 1993 election, we told the people in Quebec that
there was no difference between the Conservatives and the
Liberals.
I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, I know you are very interested in the
debate between the member for Acadie—Bathurst and myself, so I
will address the Chair.
It is very regrettable, but the democratic system demands that
we learn to live with the people across the way. There is only
one opportunity to get them to listen to reason and that is when
there is an election. In 1993, the Progressive Conservatives
got a taste of it, and in 1997 the Liberals came close. The
hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst shook things up when he defeated
Doug Young. I did the same when I won Mr. Gagnon's seat.
What I am saying is that it is up to the public to take action
when the time comes. Right now, if people want to see other
amendments, they must continue to put pressure on their local
MP. And, with your leave, Mr. Speaker, I would urge all
Canadians in the rest of Canada, in central and western Canada,
to remember that the country to which they are so attached—it is
perhaps sad that it is a sovereignist saying so, but I will say
it anyway—owes its development to the east.
The sun still rises in the east.
We have not yet learned how to gather strawberries in January
and fish crab in February. To everything there is a season, and
we cannot change that. The Minister of Fisheries and Oceans
sets the periods during which we may fish. It is not my fault
if biology tells us that we cannot fish lobster for more than 10
weeks in a given zone.
But what do we do with the fisher after that? Do we send him to
Montreal on a computer course? If he became a good computer
programmer, would he ever return to lobster fishing?
Instead of wanting to cut all the assistance programs, what
steps have Fisheries and Oceans and Human Resources Development
Canada taken with the provinces concerned to improve marketing
of these species and see whether there are not other species
that can be marketed at the same time, so as to increase the
income of fishers, dockhands and plant workers? We, too, would
like not to need EI any more, but there is a difference between
not needing it any more and starving. It is frustrating.
Every weekend, I return to my riding, and what I find the most
surprising today, here in the House, is that the public is still
calm. But I could not guarantee the physical safety of certain
Liberal members across the way in the spots I visited again last
weekend, because discontent is growing and it is palpable.
[English]
Mr. Gar Knutson (Elgin—Middlesex—London, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it is an honour to rise today. I would like to advise
the House that I will be splitting my time with the member for
Mississauga West.
The last comment from my hon. friend in the Bloc was that he
cannot guarantee my safety in his riding because of the tension.
This use of hyperbole, of gross exaggeration is so typical of
when members of the Bloc Quebecois speak. It is ridiculous.
We see this in its motion. It talks about the catastrophic
effects of the reforms that we have had in unemployment
insurance.
1620
I ask the member, is it catastrophic that roughly one million
more people are working today than were working in 1993? Is it
catastrophic that the unemployment rate has dropped from 11.2% to
8.4% and is continuing to drop? Is it catastrophic that our job
creation numbers in the last four months have been outstanding?
We have created more jobs on a percentage basis than has the
United States. Is it catastrophic that there were 171,000 new
jobs in the first four months of 1998? Are these examples of the
great catastrophe my friend in the Bloc Quebecois is talking
about?
Is it catastrophic that the OECD is forecasting the highest
growth, 3.8% for Canada, of any of the countries in the G-7? Is
it catastrophic that inflation is at its lowest level in 30
years? When there is lower inflation we get lower interest rates
and we get more investment by business. With more investment by
business we get more jobs. The jobs that we already have in our
economy become more secure as businesses invest in new plant and
equipment and make those jobs more sustainable.
Is it catastrophic that our deficit has dropped from $42 billion
when we took office in 1993 to zero today, again putting more
pressure on lowering interest rates and higher investments by
firms?
My final comment to my hon. friend about saying that the tension
is so palpable that he cannot guarantee my safety in his riding,
he should come to St. Thomas to see the new investments. He
should come to see 1,000 new jobs coming out of investment by
Magna corporation because of the upswing in the auto industry. He
should come and see the new investment in a new truck plant by
Freightliner which is a subsidiary of Daimler-Benz. Both those
plants will be making products for the world. It represents a
confidence in this country I wish my friend across the way and
his colleagues in the Bloc Quebecois shared.
I know the Liberals will talk about the good news all day today
and the people in the opposition will talk about the bad news.
Clearly one thing is true, that we are better off as a country
than we were in 1993. That is why Canadians rewarded us with a
second mandate and a majority government.
Having said that, any examination of the unemployment insurance
system today, or the employment insurance bill, should
acknowledge that the benefits to unemployment ratio has dropped.
It has dropped from roughly 80% sometime ago to 43%. That on the
face of it suggests a problem. We do have a surplus that is
quite large. Both those elements taken together should cause us
to reflect some on the cuts we made to the EI system.
Without getting into it in some detail, I had a discussion with
front line workers in my local Canada employment office on Friday.
They thought that sick benefits needed to be looked at. Right
now the length of the term for people on sick benefits is 15
weeks. If we are going to make the system more generous we
should expand the number of weeks available for sick benefits.
Another point which was mentioned in the meeting was that we
need to provide more support for unskilled workers. If they get
laid off from their job right now, the number of weeks on EI is
calculated using a formula based on the number of weeks worked
and the local unemployment level. We need to identify people
within the unemployed group who are in particular need of greater
support. Maybe we could provide them with longer term income
support.
Older workers would also fit within this category. It may make
sense that we provide older workers with longer term income
support. An article in Friday's Toronto Star reported that
Statistics Canada had said, and which all of us probably know
anyway, that older workers take longer to find jobs and are more
likely to exhaust their benefits.
Maybe we should take this time of dropping the EI ratio and the
rising surplus to examine the whole issue of support we provide
for older workers. Perhaps that is an area that could have some
tinkering or some extra benefits.
1625
Another issue that comes up is the whole issue of dropping the
EI premium rate. The premium rate has to come down in a gradual
and measured way. The thing we want to avoid is taking premiums
up when we enter the next recession, which none of us want to see
come soon. We all have to admit that the economy goes up and
down. Eventually we are going to be in an economic downturn which
would be the worst time to raise premium rates. It makes sense
to lower them only when we are confident that lowering them is
somewhat permanent and can work its way through the economy.
In the last three years the Government of Canada has dropped the
employment insurance premiums paid by employees and employers by
about $2.6 billion. This year alone Canadians are paying $1.4
billion less in EI premiums than they did last year. They are
paying less because the government has reduced the EI premium
rate four times in the last four years, from $3.07 per $100 of
earnings in 1994 to $2.70 this year. This is the second largest
reduction since the 1970s. The downward trend began when the
government took office and will continue as fiscal circumstances
permit. As premiums come down, it makes it easier to hire people
and I think it is good news for all of us.
The 1998 EI premium rate was set by the employment insurance
commission with the mandate given to it by the EI Act. In making
the announcement last November, the government said it had gone
as far as it prudently could in lowering premiums at that time.
The rate provides for a cumulative surplus at the end of 1998 in
the range of $15 billion to $19 billion, depending on economic
performance. Some of us would say that this huge surplus of $15
billion to $19 billion is a catastrophe. Let me tell the House
what is a catastrophe.
Prior to 1993 we had a UI expense that had grown from roughly $8
billion annually to about $18 billion annually. It was a social
program that was fundamentally unsustainable and cried out for
reform. If we had not dealt with that problem the people who
would have been hurt the worst would have been the unemployed
themselves, because eventually the program would have collapsed
on itself and we would have had no program.
The premium rate must also be set at a level that will ensure
the EI account will have sufficient funds to pay benefits even
during a recession. The government wants to avoid raising
premium rates if and when there is a downturn in the economy. A
major increase in EI premiums during such a time would be harmful
to the economy and to Canadian workers.
Canadians remember only too well what has happened in the past
when the previous government lowered premiums one year when the
times were good and raised them up the next year when times were
bad.
During the recession of the 1990s the account went into a $6
billion deficit. Major cuts to benefits and sharp premium rate
increases were used to stop the account deficit from getting
worse.
We can all remember the bad old days when we were cutting
benefits basically in the depths of the recession. In effect the
program acted as a destabilizer rather than an economic
stabilizer. That is exactly what we want to avoid in the future,
keeping in mind the unpredictable nature of the business cycles.
The experience of the last recession taught us a lesson and
provides guidance for future decisions.
The current surplus makes prudent provisions against rate hikes
in the event of unforeseen economic and global changes. Being
prudent now means we will not have to cut benefits and raise
premiums when the unemployed premium paying workers and employers
can least afford it. Being prudent means that we are prepared to
respond to unpredictable shifts in the labour market. Being
prudent also allows the government to address unemployment where
it is most severe.
The rise in the EI surplus gives us a flexibility we did not
have before. I would suggest that the hon. members from the Bloc
not use such ridiculous terms as “catastrophe” and appreciate
that the economy is in far better shape than when we took office
and give us the credit for that.
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Ref.): Madam Speaker,
I listened with interest to the member for
Elgin—Middlesex—London talk about the EI fund and the money
that was in there and how well the economy is doing.
The discussion today about the $15 billion or $16 billion
surplus in the EI fund reminded me a little bit about the famous
Jim Carey, a Canadian of course who has done very well.
In one of his movies, called “Dumb and Dumber”, they found a
briefcase full of money. They were in the process of returning
it to a lady in Colorado Springs, travelling across the United
States, and when they discovered what was in it they decided to
borrow a bit to finance expenses along the way. By the time they
got there and returned it, it was full of IOUs.
1630
That seems to me a good analogy to use for the EI surplus.
Supposedly we have a surplus in the EI fund, but there is nothing
there at all. It is just a line entry in general revenue and
there is nothing there. The analogy I think is pretty good,
“Dumb and Dumber”.
The member talks about how well the economy is doing. We have
an economy where we export a lot of product to the United States.
Forty per cent of our GDP comes from exports. But I notice in
the last 30 some years that our unemployment rate has been about
4% higher through good times and bad than that of the United
States. We can actually chart it. In the 1980s we can see the
4% spread. In good times and in bad times it is always there.
I wonder what the hon. member's explanation would be as to why
Canada is in the position where it always has an unemployment
rate which is 4% higher than the United States which is one of
our major trading partners.
Mr. Gar Knutson: Madam Speaker, I am delighted with the
question that the hon. member has asked me. I suggest that any
understanding of basic economics would provide the answer.
We provide more generous social programs. We can walk down the
main street of the city of Toronto and then walk down the main
street of a city like Detroit and see the difference. When my
hon. friends were in London last weekend, if they had driven two
hours and gone to the city of Detroit, down Michigan Avenue, they
would have seen a host of differences between the way things are
done in the United States and Canada.
Mr. Charlie Penson: They all have jobs.
Mr. Gar Knutson: They all have jobs, my friend is
shouting across the way. Then perhaps he could have taken two
hours on the weekend and driven down Michigan Avenue. He would
have seen that they do not all have jobs. A number of people are
homeless. A number of people are suffering. There is an
underclass in the United States which does not exist in this
country. Why? Because we have more generous social programs.
When people fall out of work they are not as desperate to find
jobs. They know they are not going to lose their health care
benefits, at least under a Liberal government. What would
happen, God forbid, under a Reform government, who knows. But
they know they are not going to lose their health care benefits
if they become unemployed. They know there is a social program
to take care of them for a while. We have higher unemployment
because we have better social programs.
If hon. members would stop heckling and listen for a bit they
would also have heard that in the last four months our economy,
compared to the United States, has out performed the American
economy.
Mr. Charlie Penson: So why is there 4% more unemployment?
Mr. Gar Knutson: There is 4% higher unemployment because
we have better social programs. When a person falls out of a job
in Canada they are not faced with the same desperate problems as
they are when they fall out of a job in the United States. We
are not prepared to tolerate the same things that the Americans
tolerate. We are not prepared to tolerate a permanent
underclass.
If we were prepared to tolerate a permanent underclass the way
they do in the United States, we would have lower unemployment.
If things are made more desperate, people will take jobs at low
wages, even though they would prefer not to.
Mr. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I am going to strive mightily to focus my remarks
through you. I know that I sometimes tend to get into a dialogue
with members across the way, but I will try to avoid that if I
can.
I find what is going on here to be quite remarkable. This is an
attack on our success. The normal tactic of an opposition party
is to attack the failures, the shortcomings, the shortfalls. The
normal approach—
An hon. member: Attack the workers and the poor.
Mr. Steve Mahoney: Listen to the member from the NDP. I
am going to get to the NDP even though we are addressing the
Bloc's motion. I think the NDP's position in all of this should
be aired publicly so that we can see exactly what its solutions
are.
This is really an attack on the success of this government.
1635
How can we possibly be running a surplus when we have been
reducing premiums? The NDP would probably shout their solution,
but the reality is because the economy has never been in better
shape. The reality is that unemployment has been reduced from
11% to 8%. In fact, as all members know, when this government
took power in 1993 it inherited an unemployment insurance premium
plan that was at $3.07 for every $100 of income. Today it is
down at $2.70. We have reduced the premiums.
How does it work? Premiums are reduced, which means there is
lower revenue, but there is more of a surplus. I think the
equation is simple. There has been a successful reform of
unemployment insurance to make it employment insurance.
I do not really consider employment insurance to be a social
program. I know it is referred to as that. The NDP, of course,
would say that we should just jack up the premiums. That would
put more of a burden on business which, at the end of the day,
would cost jobs. We all know that. But I do not consider it to
be a social program. Welfare is a social program and an
important one for people who need that assistance.
We could say that our health care system is a social program.
But to me employment insurance is not unlike workers'
compensation at the provincial level. There is a premium and for
that there is coverage. It is more of a business plan.
In this country if, through no fault of their own, a person
loses their job, the company downsizes or it is seasonal
employment, whatever the reason, this national government will
stand behind them to help them survive and to help with
retraining. It is not done to the extent that the NDP would do
it. The NDP would just give everything away.
One of the things I find interesting about this is that we are
actually debating government policy in a motion put forward by
the Bloc. The wording is outrageous. It tries to say that it is
catastrophic. It is just nonsense.
I was sitting here thinking about Bloc members. Why are they
here? Why are they in this place? It is really quite amazing.
They are putting forward issues on government policy when we all
know why they are here. They are here to tear the government
apart. They are here to tear the country apart. That is why
they are here. That is their mandate. That is their goal.
The member for Beauharnois—Salaberry recently made a speech in
the United States. He explained the reason the Bloc wants to
separate from what the Americans were saying is the greatest
country in the world. The Americans were having some difficulty
understanding how a party which had been elected democratically
to the House of Commons could actually be travelling around the
world advocating the break-up of this country.
The Americans are pretty straightforward. They are straight
shooters. It is pretty clear to them that they would not allow
that in their government. They would not allow that in their
democracy.
The member was making a speech. He said that the reason they
want to separate from Canada is that they want to have a more
democratic society. Can you imagine a society more democratic
than Canada, which would actually allow a party to be elected
which is subversive and which wants to tear the country apart?
How could we possibly get more democratic than that? That is
their agenda. We know that.
1640
I find it interesting that the Bloc members would put forward a
motion today that deals with an employment insurance fund which
they do not want anything to do with anyway. Or do they think
they can separate from the country and still tap into a national
employment insurance fund? Maybe that is the game. Maybe that
is the thinking. They can keep their national jobs if they
separate from Canada. It is truly amazing.
This attack on the success of the government by a party that
wants to destroy the country is sending a message to Canadians.
Obviously the opposition parties are out of things to find the
government at fault for, so now they are starting to attack the
things the government does best. What do they want?
They say there is no surplus. What did they say when there was
a deficit? They said that it was horrible. Insurance premiums
were too high and there was a deficit in the fund. It was real
then.
I heard a Reform member say that there is no money in the fund,
that it is just a line entry. When it was overdrawn there was
sure as heck real money missing from the pot, so why can they not
now admit that there is a surplus?
Again I use the analogy of “Dumb and Dumber”. I think
Reformers were making the sequel to “Dumb and Dumber” in London
on the weekend. I will leave it to the imagination of the House
to determine who was dumb and who was dumber. I will be
anxiously awaiting the release of that wonderful new movie.
Maybe one of the members opposite will play Jim Carey in the
sequel.
I have compiled what I consider to be the top 10 facts
concerning what this government has put into place and succeeded
with in terms of employment insurance reform.
Fact number one: In 1997 premiums were cut by $1.4 billion.
Since we have taken office the premiums have been cut by $4.5
billion a year. We have reduced premiums four times in the last
four years, from a high of $3.07 per $100 of insurable earnings
under the Tory government to $2.70. It is even lower than the
$2.80 forecast in 1997.
Fact number two: Last year this Liberal government under this
Minister of Finance had the second largest reduction in
employment insurance premiums in the history of the country.
Fact number three: $2 billion is available to the provinces.
Fact number four: 69% of part time workers are women and under
employment insurance approximately 270,000 women in part time
jobs have their work insured for the first time.
Fact number five: The 1998 budget contained a premium holiday
for young Canadians between the ages of 18 and 24.
Fact number six: This new measure builds upon the new hires
program that ends in 1999. All firms are eligible for this
program.
Fact number seven: These and other measures will save $1.4
billion in payroll taxes for workers and businesses in 1998
alone.
Fact number eight: The budget builds on the youth service
Canada program currently funded at $50 million per year.
Fact number nine: It is true that EI revenues are important to
achieving our fiscal targets, but employment insurance premiums
are part of government revenues and benefits are part of
government expenditures. You cannot flip-flop and have it either
way.
Fact number 10—
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Since many members wish to
speak, in order to hear as many questions as possible, I will
take two one-minute questions.
Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint—Jean, BQ): Madam Speaker, first of
all, I feel personally concerned by the remarks made by my
colleague, who is asking members of the Bloc Quebecois what they
are doing here.
Does he think that the 22,000 voters in the riding of Saint-Jean
who voted for me all did so by mistake? Democracy being what it
is, 44 of our members were elected to this place and sent here
by their constituents.
1645
As far as democratic values are concerned, I think we must
recognize that any decision made by the voters is the right
decision. I wish the hon. member would not continually hassle us
with that.
Earlier, he alluded to the nasty separatists bringing in a
catastrophic motion. Is he suggesting that the premiers of
Ontario—Mike Harris—of Alberta, of New Brunswick and of Nova
Scotia, who would probably vote in favour of the motion before
us if they were members of this House, area completely out of
touch? Is he suggesting that they too are separatists? In my
opinion, Mike Harris is not the biggest supporter of Quebec's
sovereignty.
[English]
Mr. Steve Mahoney: Mr. Harris could be called an
anarchist, perhaps, not a separatist.
To respond to the member, the final point that I could not make
does respond. The employment insurance commission and its
actuary have recommended that the government maintain a
substantial surplus in the fund to prevent the need to raise
premiums in the event of a recession. That 10th and final point
is very important.
I am sure there were people who did not vote for the hon.
gentleman and they should not be disenfranchised. If they truly
believe in democracy they should not have members travelling
around the world under the guise of representing parliament
telling people in other parts of the world that they want to
separate so they could have a more democratic society. That is
absolutely outrageous.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): It is my duty, pursuant to
Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the question to be
raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the
hon. member for Charlotte, Hepatitis C.
[English]
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Madam Speaker,
the member talks about the good things the government has done.
Before the government came to power I was old enough to watch
television and I remember that at that time the Liberals said
they would get rid of the GST. They never got rid of the GST.
One Liberal member had to give her resignation and came back
after an election.
I have a letter from the Prime Minister dated February 17, 1993
that states when the Conservatives were doing the changes to the
EI it was a disaster. It was taking from the working people and
it was not morally right. If he wanted to get elected in 1993 he
would change all that. Change how, by beating on the kids and
the parents of this country? That is how he did it. That is how
the government got rid of the deficit and balanced the budget.
They are proud of that? They should be ashamed of themselves.
Mr. Steve Mahoney: Madam Speaker, the NDP solution to
everything in the world is simply to spend more. “The myth that
the solution to every problem is increased spending has been
comprehensively dispelled under the Conservatives. The level of
public spending is no longer the best measure of the
effectiveness of government action in the public interest”.
Would the member be surprised that the quote is from one of his
gurus, the Hon. Prime Minister of Great Britain, Tony Blair, a
Labour prime minister who has finally come around to realize that
you do not solve all the problems in the world by throwing more
money at them.
That is what the NDP would do. That is what I saw them do in
five years. Talk about catastrophic, he should have been in the
Ontario legislature under Bob Rae for five years. I could show
some catastrophes there. That is their solution, spend more.
It does not work anymore; a new reality. You must run
surpluses, pay your bills and build a better country. That is
what we are doing.
Mr. Rob Anders (Calgary West, Ref.): Madam Speaker, here
we are again, another session of us giving the folks at home an
update of what is happening in Ottawa.
To Henry and Martha in Rimbey, Alberta I say put your feet up on
your chair and here we go.
It is another lesson in what is happening with the EI fund. What
it basically boils down to is a $15.7 billion surplus that is
being collected by the finance minister. People are probably
asking themselves where it is going.
1650
It is not actually being set up in an EI fund. It is going
toward general revenue, which means it is kind of being rolled
along with everything else. Remember that Canada pension plan
increase people are all feeling now. It is being rolled along
with that as well. It is all really part of a tax grab. That is
what it basically amounts to.
A lot of people will not qualify for employment insurance out of
this fund. One, they are collecting too much money to even
reasonably be able to pay it out. The other thing is that there
are a lot of students who are paying into this fund who, because
of the temporary nature of their work, will never qualify. Really
it is amounting to a percentage tax on their income.
I ask for unanimous consent for this motion to be votable.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Is there unanimous
consent?
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Rob Anders: Madam Speaker, basically what is
happening is that there are students and part time workers who
will never qualify for any benefits from the EI fund.
Self-employed people are not only paying the EI fund for an
employee but because they are an employer, they are paying for
being an employer as well. Therefore it is double the amount.
When they lose their job or if their business goes bankrupt or
something happens they are never going to be able to collect on
it. In these cases it is a simple matter of a tax. There is no
linkage whatsoever to their employability.
Members have heard mention today that this is basically a
phantom account because it is going into general revenue. It is
a mythical account. It is as mythical as unicorns. It is as
mythical as leprechauns, as mythical as that pot of gold. This
is a pot of gold that the finance minister is hoarding. He
always says it is there, it is over the rainbow. He says that if
we ever run into trouble, it is going to be there for us. As a
matter of fact, it is not. There is no fund. It is a joke. It
is a cruel joke on behalf of the finance minister to all us
taxpayers. It does not exist. It is all being rolled in through
general revenue.
We have to appreciate the finance minister, the tax minister
basically, for his humour on this. He tries to humour us and
twist it by saying he is not the one responsible, that it is
actually the auditor general who is forcing him to put all this
EI fund as it were into general revenue, that he would not want
to do it. He would not want to touch the idea with a 10 foot
pole but the auditor general is the one to blame.
I do not know if we buy that. When the finance minister was in
opposition he did not say payroll taxes were a problem for
creating jobs. He did not say they were an obstacle in creating
jobs. He said they were a cancer on jobs. He said that payroll
taxes kill jobs. Now he sings a different tune. He obviously
has a different set of glasses on now and has the gall to stand
in the House and say he is saving up his slush fund, which does
not really exist anyhow, this pot of gold, for a rainy day.
I do not know when he was telling the truth, now or then, one
of the times at least.
1655
Last year the EI surplus, the difference in the money that
taxpayers put in and what was actually paid out, was $7.1
billion. Without the lowest interest rates in about 40 years and
without the surplus in terms of employment insurance this
government would not have a balanced budget. It would not exist.
Why does the government not come clean and make proper
priorities? Right now we have a government that is still
continuing, while it is taxing every working Canadian with this
employment insurance that is bringing in over $7 billion a year
beyond what it pays out, to give money to corporate welfare.
There are still profitable companies receiving grants and
subsidies. Bombardier was mentioned today in terms of a very
lucrative contract it got because of contributions it made to the
Liberal Party.
The government is continuing to spend close to $4 billion a year
in foreign aid and on crown corporations like the CBC. Yet it is
going ahead and sapping this money out of jobs.
Some economists had some things to say about this. A recent
paper by Canadian economists Livio Di Matteo and Micheal Shannon
found that for each one percentage point increase in payroll
taxes it kills 44,400 jobs.
I ask the House and the finance minister, if he is watching, to
dream with me. For every single percentage point he could lower
the payroll taxes, whether CPP or EI, he would be creating more
than 44,000 jobs. I ask him to please consider that and talk to
that nasty auditor general who is forcing him to put all these
funds toward the general revenue.
It is not just economists who are crying out about this. Over
the length of my speech I will go through a number of groups that
have problems with what the finance minister is doing with this.
Some of the premiers have problems with this. Premier MacLellan
of Nova Scotia has problems with this.
An hon. member: A Liberal.
Mr. Rob Anders: That is right, a Liberal. My goodness,
imagine a fellow Liberal criticizing the EI situation. Premier
Klein in Alberta, a Tory, is criticizing this. The Premier of
Ontario criticizing this. I think many of the Liberals are
elected in the province of Ontario.
We noticed that all these people are saying we should have a cut
in the EI premiums because it will create jobs. Even the finance
minister, once again a Liberal, the one who is making the
decisions in this case, admitted when he was sitting over on the
opposition side that cutting EI premiums creates jobs. Does the
finance minister remember that?
Economist Dale Orr says the premiums could be reduced from $2.70
to $1.85 and still cover the benefit costs. That is now three
economists, three premiers and the finance minister when he was
in opposition. It is starting to add up.
It goes on. The Canadian Federation of Independent Business in
a survey of 19,000 medium and small sized businesses in this
country has come back with the results. More than half of
respondents said that if the finance minister cut the EI premiums
they would be able to hire more workers. I do not know who is a
more credible source on job creation than the CFIB and 19,000
small and medium sized businesses.
Up to this point we have had politicians and economists but we
actually also have people who work for the government. The
government's chief actuary believes we could cut it down from
$2.70 to $2.00 and it would still provide a cushion of $10
billion to $15 billion in the EI fund.
How could anyone go against all these sources? It is not just
all these people. We have a combination of all the opposition in
the House of Commons and, just for the spice of life, Bob White
with the Canadian Labour Congress. If we have the Reform Party,
the CFIB, Bob White of the Canadian Labour Congress, three
premiers and other Liberals who are asking for a cut in the EI
premium, how could anyone be against that?
1700
I would like to go on with a few other comments to drive home a
couple important points. Alberta paid $1.86 billion into EI in
1997. Members are probably asking how much Alberta took out. If
we put in $1.86 billion, how much did Albertans draw upon? It
was $670 million. If we do some quick math we come to the
determination that it was in excess of $1 billion that Albertans
paid in and never received anything back. That includes training
programs, by the way. That is $1.19 billion.
The labour force in Alberta comprises 1.513 million people. That
amounts to $786.52 that Albertans could have had in their
wallets. Let me repeat that $786.52 was what the finance minister
took out of Albertans' wallets to put into his pot of gold scheme
which he says the auditor general was forcing him to do, if we
can believe that. That is what Albertans could have had in their
pockets as discretionary income to spend as they saw fit.
Albertans know that money in their wallets does a lot more than
it does in the finance minister's wallet. Let me say again that
Albertans could have had $786. That is what the finance minister
is taking from Alberta workers. Shame on him.
Let us tally up some of the numbers. Payroll taxes per employee
in 1993 dollars but measured in 1966 were $803. Today they are
$3,272. That is a big increase. I do not know how any finance
minister across the way could say he is doing a good job when
payroll taxes have jumped like that. Does the House remember the
73% increase in the CPP?
At this point I give notice that I am sharing my time with the
member of parliament for Elk Island.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I am afraid it is
already too late. There are only seven minutes left in your
speech. You should have told the Chair about it before.
Mr. Rob Anders: Madam Speaker, here we go for seven
minutes more in terms of this lesson on employment insurance.
Let me ask a question for the folks at home. If the finance
minister kept up his practice of taking $7 billion a year more
than he gives back, what would that amount to by the turn of the
century? It would be $26 billion. The finance minister plans to
take $26 billion more than what he is giving back in employment
insurance.
That is a big slush fund. That is exactly what it is,
unfortunately, because it is going into the general revenue fund.
We will never see it coming back. A lot of students will never
be able to draw on it whatsoever. A lot of self-employed people
will never be able to draw on it.
With the amount of money the government is taking out of the
province of Alberta with its younger demographic and its lower
unemployment rates because of the Alberta advantage, there is no
way we will ever see that amount of money coming back. It just
will not happen. Let us face it.
What will this actually amount to? The average taxpayer is
paying $420 per year more than what he or she is getting out of
the EI fund. In Alberta, as I said, it was as much as $786 a
year. For every Canadian, if we average it out across the board,
it is $420 the average Canadian is paying above and beyond what
he or she is be able to collect in terms of programs, benefits,
training or anything under this plan. Shame on the finance
minister for these types of numbers.
One basic law of economics is that if we tax something we get
less of it. Thus taxing jobs means we will get less jobs and
therefore will have higher unemployment.
If the finance minister admits, as he did previously when he was
sitting on this side of the House, that payroll taxes are a
cancer on job creation, he must know—he certainly did back then
unless he has forgotten—that by cutting the payroll tax he will
be helping to create jobs.
Once again I say that for every point we are able to decrease
payroll taxes we create more than 44,000 jobs.
1705
If we go ahead and we figure out what has happened with the
Canada pension plan, that being more than a four percentage point
increase, and if we look at what we have in employment insurance
where it is taking nearly a full point above and beyond what it
should, that is five points right there that the Liberal
government has put on job creation. It has taken 200,000 jobs at
the very minimum out of the Canadian economy.
How can we argue with all the opposition parties and the unions?
The Canadian Federation of Independent Business is arguing on
behalf of job creators, the companies. Economists across the
board and even government bureaucrats are saying that these types
of things should be addressed. How can we possibly ignore that?
The only person who could ignore it is the finance minister who
forgot his previous promises in previous statements and went
ahead and took this money, along with the lowest interest rates
in 40 years, and used it as an excuse to balance the budget. He
still allowed corporate welfare, money going to people overseas
to fund dictators and some outrageous programs in the country.
How could he do that? I do not know how he justifies it?
I would like to bring home a little story from Alberta. It is
pertinent in this case. Premier Ralph Klein of my province said
that Canadian workers should be given a break and that the $5.7
billion EI surplus should be used to lower premiums. He got some
agreement on that. It was not just the premier who was saying
it. The representative of the Alberta Union of Provincial
Employees, Dan McLennan, said:
Certainly, we feel that the federal government could do a better
job with EI—
It is not just Bob White with the Canada Labour Congress. Dan
McLennan with the Alberta Union of Provincial Employees is
agreeing that the federal government could do a better job.
Let me run through the list one more time: Bob White of the
Canada Labour Congress, Dan McLennan of the Alberta Union of
Provincial Employees, Premier MacLellan, Premier Klein, Premier
Harris, the economists I have been quoting, all opposition
parties, the finance minister when he was in opposition, and
actual people within the government bureaucracy. I do not know
how the government can possibly justify any of these things. It
does not make any sense.
I will open it up now to allow some of my friends across the way
to come forward with good questions as I know they will.
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I never
heard so much rubbish in my entire life. This has to be the most
regressive mathematics or antiquated theory I have ever heard in
my entire life.
What is it that they are asking? Are they saying that if we
were to charge retail taxes we should renovate supermarkets
across the country? Or, if we were to charge taxes on gasoline
we should fix up the pumps, bridges and roads? If we were to do
this our government would not be able to function. Society as a
whole could not function.
The member and his party have to remember that if today we are
charging for insurance policies we are not spending it because
the economy is doing well. What would happen if tomorrow the
economic situation changed and we had a downturn in the economy?
Is he saying that we should tell every employee in the country
that we are sorry but the pot has run out of money because the
Reform Party stood in the House of Commons and asked us to spend
all the surplus we accumulated over the past three years during
good times?
Should we say that it is a bad time they will not be given
anything at all? What a depressing approach these guys have come
up with. It is absolutely terrible.
1710
They are complaining about the government trying to get its
house in order when it comes to the insurance policy governing
CPP, the insurance policy when people retire in the future. They
are telling us that we should not do that: How dare we provide
Canadians with the proper insurance policy so that if they want
to retire in the future there will be a little money for them.
They are saying it is terrible for the government to provide a
proper policy and proper protection for the people of Canada in
the future.
Is the member telling the youth, people and workers of Canada
that today the government should spend all the money it has in
terms of surplus? Is he telling Canadians who are working today
that tomorrow if they do not have work and there is no more money
left in what he is calling a pot, which is not a pot because it
is general revenue, not to expect anything from the government?
If that is the case he had better not stand up at all.
The Speaker: I am going to put him down as questionable
here.
Mr. Rob Anders: Mr. Speaker, I will tell the House what
taxpayers expect. They expect they will get that money back.
They expect they will not overpay and that they are rightly owed
what they deserve. That means that the government should be
giving that money back to them rather than taking it out of their
pockets and that EI premiums should be cut.
I can talk about regressive mathematics. It is paying a half
million dollars a year for every section 45 appeal to try to let
a murderer walk free. Regressive mathematics is giving money to
crown corporations when they are cutting money in the Canada
health and social transfer for education. Regressive mathematics
is sending money overseas and giving it as foreign aid and
funding dictators when they are cutting money to the Canada
health and social transfer for health care. Regressive
mathematics is giving out corporate welfare subsidies and grants
to corporations when they are cutting seniors benefits and the
old age security. That is what is regressive mathematics, and
the Liberals should be ashamed.
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I have a
few comments as well as a question or two for my colleague. I am
intrigued with this idea of the surplus. They keep saying that
we have to have this surplus.
If we have a surplus it means that the money will be
accumulating somewhere. The fact of the matter is that it is
simply going into the general revenues of the government. That
is a fact. We have it right from its documents.
I am very curious about the fact that the employers and
employees are paying this money. If it really were a surplus, if
there really were a separate fund and even if they use it to
reduce the indebtedness, should they, to be honest and fair to
the employers and employees, use it as a loan from them to pay
off other debts and attribute the interest?
I am not terribly good at math. I just did it for 31 years.
That is all. If we have an accumulated surplus of $15 billion
and we assume a nominal rate of 6%, it would provide $900 million
in surplus, almost a billion dollars a year in interest alone.
This is money that has been taken from employers and employees
and applied toward the debt. There is no accountability. There
is no answering for it at all.
I would like my colleague to comment on that. I would also like
him to comment a bit on something that is Reform Party policy. We
would like to rationalize employment insurance funds and
personalize them. Again I have done a few calculations.
If we take the maximum members are paying, employers and
employees together, it comes to $210 a month over the year.
1715
I ask my colleague to take these numbers at face value and we
can do the arithmetic together later. That money accumulates. If
it were put into an individual fund it would give an incentive to
an unemployed person to top up his or her income with as much
part time employment as possible, whereas with the present scheme
they get nothing. It would also permit the person to look very
hard for a job because he would be using his own money instead of
somebody else's money when he is unemployed. In the event that
he is able to go through life without being unemployed, it could
add to his retirement income.
At a nominal 6% if he were to pay for 10 years before asking for
a benefit it could give him a benefit of $685 a week for a whole
year, way more than we get under the present insurance plan. But
the money would be his besides. If he were to use it for
retirement it could give a retirement benefit of $346 per week in
perpetuity without ever touching the $300,000 which has been
accumulated with interest.
That to me would be a very creative scheme to solve the
unemployment insurance and also put a lot of money into the hands
of the people who earned it instead of just having the government
taking it away from them.
Mr. Rob Anders: Mr. Speaker, those are some good ideas. I
sit day in and day out on the human resources development
committee that decides some of these things, or at least we like
to pretend we do. I think some of those ideas should be
considered.
This would be a system whereby people feel they have real
ownership of their plan, where they know that the government is
not going to abscond with the money and do with it as it pleases,
a system whereby they have a real sense of ownership and a sense
of pride and an ability to put more in if they like and an
ability to have it roll over and become part of their retirement
income. I think those ideas are bang on. I wish we could make
the changes necessary to do that.
I see government members across the way who sit on the HRD
committee as well. I hope they give those ideas consideration.
Money right now is going toward employment insurance. Students
and some self-employed Canadians have no ability to collect on
the fund. With the high premiums that are charged to everybody
else there is little likelihood they are ever going to see back
in a given province or a territory the type of money they have
put into it. If they had the ability to put that money into
their own type of fund and therefore draw out what they needed
when times are tough, whatever surplus was left, whether it is
$300,000 or more, with they would be able to roll that over into
a pension fund. Would that not be impressive?
It would be a great incentive for them to want to make sure they
maintain the funds in their own private fund. It would give them
a real nest egg for retirement, something totally unlike what we
have with the Canada pension plan.
Chile has a plan where people feel they have a sense of
ownership. They brag about the benefits of that plan.
The Speaker: I know the hon. member has more to add but
the time has run out.
It has been pointed out to me that I mentioned that the member
for Ottawa Centre was questionable. I did not mean that he was
questionable. I meant that he was questioning some of the
statements made. I hope he will accept my apologies
[Translation]
We will now hear from the member for Bourassa. I would like to
ask him if he will be sharing his time with another member.
Mr. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I will be
sharing my time with the member for Oak Ridges.
I am pleased to rise today to speak to the motion before us.
I think this motion is another example of the attitude of the
member and his colleagues from his party who are trying to
demolish the progressive legislation that our government put in
place during its first mandate.
We have listened to Canadians. The Government of Canada has
modified the outdated unemployment insurance program to adapt it
to the new realities of the job market. After two years of
consultations, we have fulfilled the wishes expressed by
Canadians in that regard.
We have created a forward looking employment insurance program
that is more flexible, that meets the needs of a greater number
of workers and—I really want to stress this last point—that is
self-sustaining.
1720
The main purpose of the new employment insurance program is to
help all unemployed Canadians, regardless of where they live, to
go back to work, and that includes Quebeckers from the member's
riding. The government is very pleased to have been able to help
more than 3,100 residents of the riding of
Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques to find jobs since
1993.
With employment insurance, we have put in place a system that is
more fair and equitable. We wanted to put an end to the vicious
circle of dependency encouraged by the previous system. The
employment insurance program is better equipped to create jobs
in regions where unemployment is high.
Our employment insurance system strikes a balance between
providing workers who lose their job the income support they
need, and giving them the means to return to work.
For example, the system is specifically geared to workers who
are entitled to the family income supplement, which helps low
income claimants with children. For these people, this
supplement is more than double the weekly benefit supplement
that they used to receive under the old system.
Moreover, the employment insurance system sets at $50 the
minimum amount of eligible supplementary earnings, thus allowing
low income claimants to increase their employment income without
having their employment insurance benefits cut. Those who are
entitled to the family income supplement are exempt from the
intensity rule.
Moreover, the system pays back the employment insurance
contributions made by those who earn less than $2,000 a year.
The employment insurance system is not only compassionate, it is
also well thought out. For example, by determining eligibility
based on the number of hours worked instead of the weeks of
employment, the system is more fair and gives greater
consideration to the realities of the current labour market.
It is true that people must work for a reasonable period of time
before qualifying for benefits, but this is only reasonable.
Again, the system is compassionate towards those who did not
work long enough to receive benefits. The new system provides
better support than did the old one.
For example, any person who collected ordinary benefits in the
past three years can benefit from active re-employment measures.
The same goes for those who collected maternity or parental
benefits during the last five years, and who left the workforce
to take care of a child.
These active re-employment measures give unemployed workers an
opportunity to gain the skills and experience necessary to find
a job. We are helping, among others, up to 45% of provincial
welfare recipients.
In his motion, the hon. member claims that employment insurance
treats women unfairly. I do not know where he got this idea. The
system is far from unfair to women, quite the contrary.
Since the employment insurance plan has been implemented, part
time workers, a number of whom are women, are not limited to 14
hours a week jobs like they used to be. Does the hon. member
realize that the plan now covers about 270,000 women who were
not eligible under the former unemployment insurance plan? Does
he realize that nearly 70% of recipients—I must be touching a
nerve, because members opposite are hollering—who get the
family income supplement are women, and that nearly 700,000
women who work part time will have their contributions
reimbursed?
More important, contrary to measures promoted by the Bloc
Quebecois, we are well on our way to helping women re-enter the
labour market through active employment measures and job
creation projects. Any reasonable person will admit that putting
people back to work is better that keeping them on benefits for
a longer period of time.
The hon. member is worrying about the impact of employment
insurance on young people. Let me tell you that young people
today would agree that developing their full intellectual
potential is crucial if they are to get a well paid job in
today's knowledge based economy.
It is a fact that eligibility criteria have been made more
stringent for newcomers on the labour market, but the intent is
not to penalize young people. Quite the contrary, studies have
proven that too easy an access to the former unemployment
insurance plan was an incentive to drop out of school for small
short term jobs followed by dependency on benefits.
Is that what the hon. member wants? I am sure his constituents
will be happy to hear that. The government does not think it is
a good idea to encourage young people to become dependent on
benefits.
Our goal is to encourage them to stay in school as long as they
can and then help them make the often difficult transition from
school to the labour market.
1725
The hon. member of the Bloc Quebecois and his colleagues should
know that the new employment insurance plan is very advantageous
for seasonal workers. Many of them work long hours and are
therefore at an advantage under the new system, which is based
on the number of hours worked. I repeat: many seasonal workers
work long hours and are therefore very much at an advantage
under the new system, which is based on the number of hours
worked.
If the Bloc Quebecois had its way, it would revert to the old
unemployment insurance system, that passive system that
Canadians, including Quebeckers, rejected as outdated.
We will not do that.
We look toward the future and the future has already begun. The
Government of Canada and the Government of Quebec signed a
labour market development agreement under which we will invest
$2.7 billion in the next five years. The province will be able
to develop and manage programs specifically tailored to the
needs of Quebeckers.
But, as usual, for the Bloc Quebecois, there is nothing good and
bad things are our fault.
However we are ready for the future and the employment insurance
program has a role to play in that future, even though the
members of the Bloc refuse to admit it.
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have seldom seen such a demagogic exercise
as the one we have just witnessed.
In studies paid for by the department and conducted by an
economist chosen by the department, to assess the 1994 reform,
we find the following:
Just like workers in provinces or industries where unemployment
is high, in particular the Atlantic provinces and to a certain
extent the province of Quebec, primary industries and the
construction sector are much more likely to lose jobs. Any
worker chosen at random from these provinces or these industries
could expect to lose a lot more weeks of benefits than a worker
in any other region of Canada, under Bill C-17.
For instance, a fish plant worker and a forestry worker both
received an average of 25 weeks of benefits before the new
system came into force. Since the reform, that number has fallen
to 20, which means that Bill C-17 has had a disproportionate
impact on the provinces and the industries that need this
insurance program the most.
The system the Liberals have set up was highly and vehemently
criticized by none other that the current Prime Minister, a few
months before the last general election.
What does the hon. member for Bourassa have to say to all these
experts who state that the employment insurance reform acts more
or less like a tunnel leading to social welfare?
Mr. Denis Coderre: Mr. Speaker, if the separatists were
serious, they would remember there was a consensus in Quebec to
bring about major reforms in the old unemployment insurance
program.
This is strange, because the separatists are advocating the same
philosophy of active measures to put people back to work, but
this time on the welfare issue. They proposed a welfare reform
based on need. This is what we have done in fact.
The important thing is for people to get back into the
workforce. I do not want a society that relies solely and
constantly on these benefits. I want to find active measures for
women, for seasonal workers and for young people to put them
back to work.
What the members of the Bloc Quebecois want is to live like in
the good old system. It is clear that they are totally out of
touch with reality. This is not what Quebeckers want.
They want active employment measures and this is what the
minister has done.
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my colleague
talks about people who are out of touch with reality.
What about the current Prime Minister who, when he was in the
opposition in 1993, said that, instead of dealing with the roots
of the problem, the Conservatives were attacking the unemployed?
What happened to the hon. member's Prime Minister? Can he
explain this to me, without looking for all kinds of excuses?
Let him tell the truth. What happened to the hon. member's Prime
Minister?
1730
Mr. Denis Coderre: Mr. Speaker, a majority of 9,000 people gave
me this seat because I was telling the truth. I am very happy to
be a member of this political party.
I will remind my dear friend opposite that, when we came into
office, with the huge deficit we inherited, and when I see what
deficit the NDP had, for example in Ontario, when that party was
in power, I do not need the hon. member's advice on the
definition of truth or the definition of management.
It is clear that we did our homework, that we took adequate
economic measures. There is never a perfect system, but I can
tell you this: 700,000 more workers benefited from it.
The people in my riding are very happy. In the riding of
Kamouraska, 3,100 more people are benefiting from the new
measures and this is what is important.
The Speaker: Before resuming debate, I would like to remind you
that questions and answers should always be put through the
Chair.
[English]
Mr. Bryon Wilfert (Oak Ridges, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
appreciate the opportunity to participate in today's debate.
There are a few clarifications I would like to make with respect
to this motion as its wording places a negative connotation on
the government's approach to employment insurance.
First I would like to put this topic in some context of the
government's overall fiscal management and deficit reduction
strategy. When the government took office in 1993, it recognized
that the key to a prosperous future for Canadians was getting
Canada's books in order.
Thanks to the government's determined and balanced approach, the
vicious cycle of high deficits, high interest rates and slow
economic growth was transformed into a virtuous cycle where lower
deficits have helped produce lower interest rates leading to
higher economic growth and lower unemployment and leading
ultimately to the elimination of the deficit last year.
Hon. members are aware that the deficit is now dead. It is dead
for 1997-98, 1998-99 and 1999-2000. This is the first time
Canada has had a balanced budget in 30 years. This will be the
first time in almost 50 years that the Canadian government will
have had three consecutive balanced budgets.
Canada I am pleased to report in the current economic cycle has
had the first balanced budget of any G-7 nation. In addition,
the debt to GDP ratio fell last year, the first meaningful
decline in 20 years. Again it will fall even more.
We have also pursued budgets of balance, budgets that recognize
the need to continue to make key economic and social investments
even with demands of fiscal constraint. Over the last four years
we have invested in children by enriching the child tax benefit.
We have improved tax assistance for the disabled and for
charities. We have provided more help for post-secondary
students and for those supporting them. We have placed a high
priority on improving Canadian health care.
As the books improved, one of our first and most significant
initiatives was to introduce legislation to increase the Canada
health and social transfer cash floor from $11 billion to $12.5
billion. This will provide provinces with over $7 billion more
in cash from 1997-98 to 2002-03.
Now with the deficit millstone gone, we can afford to take even
stronger action to help Canadians meet the challenges they face
and take advantage of the opportunities of tomorrow. We will do
this by pursuing and pushing the balanced strategy we have
followed since coming to office, to build a strong economy and a
secure future.
First, we remain committed to responsible management of the
nation's finances. We will reduce Canada's debt burden to a two
front strategy of stronger economic growth and a debt repayment
plan.
Second, the improvement in our finances means we can make
strategic investments such as the Canadian opportunities
strategy. This strategy will improve access to knowledge and
skills Canadians will need in the 21st century.
Third, the 1998 budget launches the process of general tax
relief starting with those who need it most.
1735
Over the next three years $7 billion in tax savings is being
provided primarily to low and middle income Canadians. These
measures must be modest in the beginning because the fiscal
dividend that makes them possible is modest as well.
The government has made it clear though that it will not allow
unsustainable tax reductions to put in jeopardy either Canada's
regard for fiscal health or delivery on the country's priorities
such as health care and education. As the fiscal situation
improves and the debt becomes more manageable relative to the
growth of the economy, the amount of resources that can be
channelled into other areas, such as increased tax relief, will
grow.
This brings me to the subject at hand, employment insurance. As
hon. members know, employment insurance first and foremost is an
insurance system to help the unemployed bridge the gap between
jobs. I can assure the House that our government has no
intention of breaking that very important link.
Some of our critics have suggested, and quite wrongfully, that
the government is being too prudent and is hiding surpluses that
could be used now for other purposes like lower taxes and in
particular the tax that supports EI. This is simply not the case.
There is no denying that the EI account has a material impact on
the government's fiscal health and stability. The annual
surpluses in the EI account have contributed significantly to
achieving the fiscal targets over the last four years. However,
we should also remember that the government's improved fiscal
outlook has a positive impact on employment and the EI account.
The decline in the unemployment rate from 11.2% in 1993 to 8.4%
at present makes that clear.
Look at what else has been happening. The government has
lowered the EI rate four times, from $3.07 in 1994 to $2.70 in
1998. We would like to reduce the EI premiums further but the
premium rate must be set to ensure that the EI account will have
sufficient funds to pay benefits even during a recession.
In the event of an economic downturn a major increase in EI
premiums would be harmful to the economy, as I think the members
opposite would agree, and to Canadian workers. Clearly we must
avoid that at all costs.
The premium rate will continue to come down but in a balanced
manner and in the way to meet all the priorities indicated to us
by Canadians, for example, personal tax cuts and health care
spending.
I will return once more to the word balanced. Canadians asked
for a balanced approach and that is what this government is
giving them. We have reduced both the debt and tax burden and
increased our spending priorities such as on health care. The
fact is that the EI premiums are part of what makes the balanced
approach work.
This is not to say that we are not reducing the EI premiums
because we are. For 1998 alone, we cut premiums by $1.4 billion.
I have just indicated that we will continue to reduce them in a
measured way in the future. To those who would say we should cut
them faster and deeper than we are already doing, my question
would be how? By not cutting the debt? By not reducing taxes?
By not spending on health care? I do not think that is what
Canadians want.
I should remind hon. members that the EI surplus is currently in
the range recommended by the chief actuary of Canada. Let me
provide the House with three important facts on which to reflect.
The EI premium rate must ensure there is sufficient revenue each
business cycle to pay EI costs at relatively stable rates. The
current surplus makes prudent provision against rate hikes in the
event of unforeseen economic and global changes. It also allows
the government to address unemployment where it is most severe.
For example, similar in concept to the 1997-98 new hires
programs, the 1998 budget gives employers who hire young
Canadians in 1999 and 2000 an EI premium holiday. We must also
remember that just a few years ago the federal government deficit
was $42 billion.
At that time the government looked at all aspects of the fiscal
situation and there was no denying the EI surpluses played a role
in restoring fiscal health. This was not done in isolation
however and contemplated other difficult decisions.
1740
The motion put forward by my colleagues opposite uses phrases
such as “catastrophic effects”, “taking over funds destined
for unemployed persons” and the government not adapting “to the
new realities of the labour market”. I do not believe this is
the case.
Canadians and the government and no one else will make the
economic and policy decisions for this nation. We have regained
control of our fiscal future. By regaining control over the
finances, we are setting out a plan to help all Canadians gain
access to the tools of tomorrow's success.
I believe we have taken a balanced approach on this issue.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvan Bernier (Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, I listened to the hon. member's speech. I must say
that some parts surprised me; however, I can see that other
members want to ask questions so I will be very brief.
In his speech, the hon. member opposite said that he was glad
that some premium money was retained, that everything was not
redistributed. He talked a lot about the fact that the
government balanced its books, but when it comes to the
employment insurance fund he is glad that it is not balanced,
that there is more money coming in than going out.
He said he was pleased about that and hoped that there would be
enough money in the fund to face the next recession.
I would like to ask the hon. member whether he knows that the
Minister of Finance has already used the surplus to pay down the
deficit, and that, therefore, his dream of being prepared for
the next recession is not likely to come true? If this is what
he wants, is he ready to side with the Bloc Quebecois and vote
in favour of the private members' bills we have introduced to
establish an employment insurance fund that would not be part of
general revenue?
[English]
Mr. Bryon Wilfert: Mr. Speaker, it is clear that in my
comments I have indicated that the government is taking a
balanced approach. It is very clear that the government has to
make prudent fiscal decisions.
Clearly there is no question that in having that money set
aside, if there is a recession in the future, and we of course
hope there is not, we need to be prepared. The member seems to
forget the fact that this government has reduced EI premiums
continually over four years. There is no question that EI is used
as a bridge between people who are unemployed and their next job.
I believe the government's strategy is taking a very clear
approach, one which will benefit all concerned.
There is no question that I cannot support the Bloc's position
because I think the government strategy is one that has been
working. It is one which will prove certainly in the short and
long term to be the right approach.
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
I would like to set the record straight quickly as I know there
are others who would like to speak. I would like to talk to some
of the information which my hon. colleague provided with regard
to things such as the balanced budget, debt repayment plan and a
few other things such as comments he made regarding the EI fund.
My colleague said that the government is taking credit for a
balanced budget. We applaud that and we think that is very good.
But we also want to make note that this was done by Canadians and
the rate of taxes they have paid. There have been a number of
increases in taxes made by this Liberal government. The credit
should go where it is deserved and that is to Canadian taxpayers.
An hon. member: Name them.
Mr. Grant McNally: My hon. colleague would like me to
name them. I do not have enough time in this brief period to
name the numerous, over 30, taxes that have been applied by this
government since 1993.
This government also talks about being the defender of health
care which I find quite incredible. There have been over $7
billion in cuts to health care and education through the CHST.
I would also like to point out to my hon. colleague the fact
that the debt repayment plan he mentioned is a contingency fund
that the finance minister has said would be used only if money is
available. That is not a concrete plan for debt repayment. The
debt has not been decreased as my hon. colleague may have alluded
to.
I would also like to ask my colleague about the $15 billion
surplus. That would seem to indicate to me that the premiums are
in fact too high and could be reduced. I would like to ask him a
question regarding a comment made by his own finance minister
when he was in opposition and said that high EI premiums are a
cancer to job creation. I want to ask the hon. member if he
agrees with his own finance minister. Yes or no?
1745
Mr. Bryon Wilfert: Mr. Speaker, if on this side of the
House we walked on water the opposition would say “why can't you
swim”. It seems we continually hear from the other side that it
could do it better. I think we are demonstrating that we are
doing it better. I agree with the finance minister because
obviously this government has taken the approach in the last four
years of reducing EI premiums continually, which had not been the
case previously.
Of course it was a partnership. There is no question that
Canadians as a whole worked very hard to make sure we were able
to reduce this deficit. It is now that the government through
the fiscal dividend is able to share, in particular in health
care. The national round table on health said that the government
allocation of dollars was right on. I think the approach we have
taken is the correct one.
[Translation]
The Speaker: The hon. member for Saint-Jean. Is he going to
share his time?
Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I will be
splitting my time with my hon. colleague from Mercier.
I have found this afternoon most interesting, one of the
questions from my hon. colleague from Acadie—Bathurst in
particular. He asked one of our colleagues on the other side
“Exactly what could have bitten you to make you end up in such a
situation?”
In a few minutes I will refer to the letter from the current
Prime Minister, then Leader of the Opposition. I think that
what bit the Liberals was the forgetfulness bug. In other
words, they have forgotten their past. They have lost their
past history.
Not only is this party, which often pats itself on the back for
its liberal values of openness and solidarity, proposing a bill
like this one, but its entire policy leads us to believe that it
is exactly the opposite.
The one with the most serious case of amnesia of all is probably
the former Leader of the Opposition, the current Prime Minister.
I refer to a letter he sent in 1993. This afternoon I heard
reference to it, but I think it would be very important to quote
the entire letter and to comment on it, in order to have a look
at the situation the Liberals are in today. They have
completely forgotten their past, their values of solidarity, the
position they took at that time with respect to the matter we
are dealing with now.
My first quote from the letter by the current Prime Minister,
then Leader of the Opposition, is the following:
<—the Conservative finance minister at the time—
It was the Leader of the Opposition at that time, now the Prime
Minister, who sponsored the measure we have before us today,
employment insurance reform, and who put people in the mess they
are now in. The current Prime Minister is the one who said that
back then.
What about now?
The basic problem is not being addressed. Instead the unemployed
are being hit hard. Their benefits are being reduced, and they
are having trouble qualifying for employment insurance.
In passing I would like to get back to what my colleague who
spoke before me said about the importance of balancing the
budget, the importance of a zero deficit. How was it achieved?
First by slashing transfers to the provinces to the tune last
year of $1.4 billion in Quebec alone, and on the back of the
unemployed. Exactly the opposite of what the former opposition
leader used to say.
I will read some more of the letter:
Where is their consternation today? I listened to every Liberal
speech made this afternoon in support of the Prime Minister and
his cabinet. What happened to their consternation? In those days
they were filled with consternation at the thought the
unemployed were going to be harmed, but today they are doing
even worse than the previous government.
I will quote some more:
By reducing benefits and penalizing more those who willingly
leave their jobs, the government obviously does not care about
the victims of the economic crisis. Instead of dealing with the
root of the problem, the government goes after the unemployed.
These measures will have disturbing effects as they will prevent
workers from reporting cases of harassment and unacceptable
working conditions.
1750
What is going to happen now? Will workers faced with
unacceptable conditions dare say “We are going to have to quit
our job?” Will women who are harassed be able to say “I am going
to quit my job, I am going to try to find something else, but in
the meantime I can rely on the social safety net”?
No, and the statistics are here to prove it; nobody will contest
them. Only 41% of unemployed workers qualify for employment
insurance, half of them are forgotten. When it comes to young
people this rate drops to 26%. And yet all we have heard so far
is that young people should stay in school.
On the other hand, the young guy or girl who gets a job to put
himself or herself through school starts contributing to the
employment insurance plan from the first cent earned, the first
hour worked. These young people contribute to the plan but
cannot benefit from it.
I find absolutely deplorable all the remarks I have heard there
this afternoon. The letter from the current Prime Minister and
former leader of the opposition reads further:
In my opinion, it is unacceptable for the people of Canada to
continue in this disastrous direction and further penalize the
victims of this recession.
Not only did this government go further than the previous one,
but I think it has gone much further in terms of the unfair
conditions imposed on the unemployed.
We are being criticized for this great disaster, for being
disaster stricken.
They say we only talk of disasters. Given the statistics I just
gave you, in a region like the one represented by my colleague,
where nearly 40% of the population is unemployed, it is a
disaster.
This minister would better drop the function and technocratic
approach and come in ridings to see what it is like in the
field, because my colleagues and I know how it is, and it is
disastrous.
Whether our colleagues opposite like it or not, facts are what
matter to us. That is why I have looked at questions in terms of
the concept of reality this afternoon. It is as if these people
were completely out of touch with reality and just follow the
minister's lead or that of their Prime Minister and not consider
the motion before us.
Bloc Quebecois members are not the only ones who happen to think
this is outright theft, and that the victims end up paying the
price. The premiers of Alberta and Ontario have said that this
is nothing short of theft, and you can hardly suggest these
people are out of touch with reality. They support our motion.
People from all walks of life are behind the Bloc Quebecois on
this motion.
And what about the unanimous support of the Assemblée nationale?
Are there not Liberal members of the Assemblée nationale who are
part of the great Liberal family and who claim to share
fundamental values of solidarity? It may be true in Quebec, but
it is certainly not the case in this House.
The government acts alone; it does not give a hoot about the
victims and imposes its decisions.
And then it brags about having a zero deficit this year and in
the coming years. It should be said that the government achieved
this at the expense of the unemployed and of provincial
transfers.
I would like to remind the Liberal Party of the compassionate
values it has always stood for. It should govern itself
accordingly today. If this plan is a safety net, and if wealth
redistribution is important, let the government turn to the
wealthy, to the banks and the big corporations, and not to those
who are on employment insurance because their region has been
devastated by the lack of jobs.
The government should come to its senses, have some compassion
and uphold the values it has always advocated.
I therefore ask the government to support the motion put forward
by my colleague, which is before us today.
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the hon.
member aptly described the problem with employment insurance and
how it affects people in his area.
1755
Many who are listening to us on television today realize that I
am frustrated. My frustration stems from the fact that there is
real problem when, every day, we see in our riding families and
children who are suffering because of the changes to employment
insurance. In 1993, the Liberals promised they would not change
the system.
We often hear from the other side that employment insurance
leads to dependency, that it deters young people from trying to
find work. Back home, it does not deter young people from
working.
The problem is that when they do not find work, they are forced
to go on welfare.
Do you have the same problem in your area? Do people have to go
on welfare, instead of collecting employment insurance and
preserving a minimum of dignity?
Mr. Claude Bachand: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague
from Acadie—Bathurst for his question. He mentions a problem that
is indeed omnipresent.
I said that the Liberal government has been bragging about
eliminating the deficit and getting it quickly to zero, but not
only did it do it at the expense of the unemployed, it did it by
slashing the transfers to the provinces. In fact, transfers to
the province of Quebec has been reduced by $1.4 billion. That
includes transfers for health, social assistance services and
post-secondary education.
Right now, when workers are unable to qualify for unemployment
insurance, they end up on welfare and it is up to the provinces
to take care of them.
Not only has the government cut the transfers, not only is it
making the unemployed pay, but it is also pushing people toward
social welfare and saddling the provinces with the problem.
With a $16 billion surplus over two years, the solution to the
problem we are currently facing is quite simple. We are not
asking for a revolutionary solution. We only want to improve the
system, to ensure that workers in regions like the Gaspé area my
colleague represents can more easily become eligible. These
regions need this insurance program and it is important that we
do it this way.
The other solution would be to reduce the unemployment insurance
premiums, as we have always heard it mentioned. A decrease of 10
cents would create up to 30,000 jobs.
These are the two solutions: improve the system for those who
need it, who need a social security system, and reduce the
unemployment insurance premiums to create jobs and get people
back to work.
Mr. Ghislain Lebel (Chambly, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have a
question for my distinguished colleague from Saint-Jean regarding
the fiduciary role that the federal government has when it
collects money from workers and employers and has the authority,
at least morally if not legally, to distribute that money to
those who paid it. It is still employment insurance.
Professional associations all have a trust account and, despite
the loftiest of intentions, if we take money from a trust
account and use it for other things than what it was intended
for, just like the federal government is doing, if we use it to
pay for groceries and other things instead of using it for its
original purpose, can this not be challenged before the courts,
as some people are beginning to suggest? I would like my
colleague to clarify that for us since I missed that in his
speech.
Mr. Claude Bachand: Mr. Speaker, I am glad my colleague raised
this question. He missed that in my speech for the very good
reason that I did not talk about it, but I thank him for giving
me the opportunity to do so now.
It is true that the auditor general has proposed that the money
be put into a trust account and be used to help those people who
need it. I remind you of a question I asked and a point I raised
earlier. What we have here is an indirect tax. People pay
provincial taxes and federal taxes, and every week there is an
indirect tax on their paycheque. This tax is not used to help
people. For the last two years, it has been used to eliminate
the government's deficit.
I think my colleague has made an excellent suggestion. A trust
account is indeed what we need.
1800
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I in turn
would urge all members of the House to support the Bloc
Quebecois motion. I will reread the major elements:
Nobody can deny the catastrophic effects.
That is what I am going to take a closer look at, and nobody can
deny that either.
No argument here either.
There is one aspect of the present situation that can only be
described as scandalous, and I am choosing my words carefully.
That is the fact that the now $15 billion surplus—around
December, it was estimated at $12 or $13 billion—came about, as
my colleagues and I have pointed out, and many people have added
their voices to ours over the years, because the government cut
benefits to unemployed workers, but also because it continued to
levy a payroll tax that, let us be honest, is expensive.
The minister says he has reduced EI premiums to $2.70 for 1998.
But what members should know is that the department's senior
actuary said that the present regime is costing only about $2.
That is the truth.
What does the Bloc Quebecois say? We say that the government
can have a surplus to cover the unforeseen. It does not have to
be so high, because, as it is now, the system is so weakened
that the fund will never be used up.
It is like a bottomless pit.
Although the fund stood at $12 billion when the government
brought down its budget in the spring, members should know that
it had planned a surplus of at least $6 billion. If half of
this $6 billion were used to lower premiums and the other half to
improve the system, so that more young people, women and
seasonal workers were eligible, the system would make more sense
and be better adapted.
The workers paying EI premiums, because this is the important
point, are those earning up to $39,000. This is the main point.
Above $39,000, workers no longer pay EI premiums.
Why is it that people who work overtime, those who make higher
salaries or who are not in danger of being forced to use
employment insurance do not pay for what we call economic
stabilization?
Employment insurance is not a welfare system, but an instrument
of economic stabilization. What is the finance minister doing?
He is changing it into another welfare system, but with the
difference that it is funded by middle income workers. This is
out of the ordinary.
The second element is that businesses are paying. Businesses
that pay their employees less than $39,000 are mostly small
businesses. A small business employee will seldom earn more than
$39,000, except perhaps a few management people. This means that
on these $39,000, the tax paid by the business is 1.4 times the
one paid by the employee.
Small businesses do not pay this with their profits, but with
their revenues.
This means we are in an absurd economic situation in a country
that wonders why its productivity is low and the unemployment
rate is too high, where workers who earn up to $39,000, not the
others, pay once again to reduce the deficit and to restore a
bit a social solidarity in Canada.
1805
The Minister of Finance was saying “We reduced taxes for
83% of Canadians and eliminated them for 400,000 people”. But
what he is saying? He is saying that the government did so with
money paid mainly by small businesses and by workers earning
less than $39,000. This is redistributing poverty, to a certain
extent. It is clear that this makes no economic or social sense.
I would be inclined to say this makes no political sense.
Mr. Ghislain Lebel: This makes no sense at all.
Mrs. Francine Lalonde: What this means is that the Minister of
Finance, who said he wanted to reduce taxes, did not dare to
make everyone pay, all those who do not necessarily earn income
from a job, but from profits and speculation.
They do not contribute. They benefit from the overall tax
reduction, but they do not contribute.
Big corporations with their huge profits are not contributing
either. The redistribution is done on the back of those earning
$39,000 or less and the businesses who pay their salary. This is
absurd. This is even borderline illegal. How do they explain to
workers and SMEs that they are the ones carrying the load of
economic stabilization and redistribution? There is something
utterly illogical in there.
The finance minister says “Our clients are the
underprivileged”. Since when should workers alone have to look
after redistribution?
Again, even without touching the $12 billion surplus, there is
still another $6 billion planned surplus.
After paying everything, half of it could go to improving the
plan and the other half to reducing contributions, particularly
those of the SMEs.
The EI surplus must somehow bother the consciences of all my
colleagues, including the Liberals. When the finance minister
boasts he is redistributing, they conveniently forget that those
who are paying for it are those who make $39,000 or less. Yes,
workers are ready to do their part, and so are SMEs, but not
alone.
It is illegal, scandalous, it does not make any sense, it is
economically counter-productive. There are many questions which
are not raised in this country, including why we do not seem to
be able to eradicate high unemployment.
Canada is at the point where it will be at head of the pack when
it comes to unemployment, and at the tail end with regard to
social spending. Under this government, Canada will have the
worst of both worlds.
Mr. Yvan Bernier (Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, I would first like to congratulate my colleague
from Mercier for her speech. In the last session, she worked
with us on Standing Committee on Human Resources Development.
Clearly her heart is with the unemployed. She is still very
much aware, she experiences it, she still talks about it and she
moves us.
1810
I wish she could continue. I imagine there is no point asking
the House for unanimous consent to allow her to continue longer,
but I will offer her time.
I would like the hon. member to educate the Liberals a little
about the system, the $39,000, the cutoff point. Before it was
$43,000. But I think there was something more hidden away in all
that.
Was it not also to try to staunch the flow of money from out of
the system, since now the limit is not $43,000 but $39,000.
Is it not bad enough that the Liberals are double dipping?
On the one hand, they set up a procedure that costs them less
and, on the other, they establish a limit. I would ask the hon.
member to continue on this.
Mrs. Francine Lalonde: Mr. Speaker, what my colleague is drawing
attention to is the fact that, prior to this reform, the maximum
amount on which a worker could be required to contribute was
$42,500. For some incomprehensible reason, the Minister of
Finance cut that back to $39,000.
We asked the reason when we were in committee, with an
approximate French translation, and the answer we got was that
people earning between $39,000 and $42,500 did not make much use
of employment insurance. What an answer. So the people paying
into the program should be only those most likely to use it?
That is not all. The reform has surprised a lot of people,
particularly many workers in new sectors. There are sectors
that involve contract workers. People get hired for a set
period of time, and can earn a fairly high income during that
time. In the past, there was a weekly maximum on which
deductions could be taken. Now, for such cases, there is no
weekly ceiling.
This means that a young person who earns $5,000 in one week, for
instance, would have to pay EI on the entire amount.
Curiously, an older person working in another sector and earning
$5,000 would have his deductions stop once $39,000 had been
reached.
This comes pretty close to being illegal. I would not say it is
a program that favours the middle wage-earners, but it is one
intended to fill up the employment insurance coffers.
[English]
Mr. Jerry Pickard (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
what a difference a day or a week or a year or four years makes.
I remember not that long ago a government that sat in this House
with a $6 billion deficit account in EI. That deficit account
was of tremendous concern to every Canadian. Who was making the
payments for that deficit account? It was clearly the Government
of Canada. Just a few short years before that there was a surplus
of $2 billion. What caused the change from a $2 billion surplus
to a $6 billion debt? Obviously it is a cycle that does occur
from time to time. It is a cycle of good employment, steady
growth and then a downturn.
There is absolutely no question that the responsibility of
government is to smooth out those tremendous downturns and peaks
into some realistic form to make sure workers have fair and
equitable treatment whether it is in a difficult time when many
are laid off or when we are doing well.
1815
We have established several programs to smooth out the cycle of
work and the business practice changes in this country in order
to make sure that is done. EI is one of those programs.
When I look back to 1993 and the economy at that time I did not
hear Conservative members suggesting reductions in premiums. As
a matter of fact, the premiums were at $3.07 and they were
suggesting an increase at that time. They were suggesting that
the premiums should rise to $3.25 or more.
An hon. member: $3.30.
Mr. Jerry Pickard: The parliamentary secretary points out
that it was $3.30.
Had the right wing element of this House been elected there is
absolutely no question that the premiums would have increased and
the cost of business would have increased.
I also recall that we had a deficit of $42 billion at that time
and the Reform Party, more than any other party, was clamouring
that we should cut spending and make programs responsible. It
said we should do the things that needed to be done to get this
country back on a business scale that was reasonable. Yes, that
is what it was suggesting. What would it have done with EI? We
might not have an EI program in place today if the Reform Party
had its way.
The EI program was very much in jeopardy, as well as the social
programs in this country, from a to z. The Reform
Party was clamouring for the government to cut and chop, cut and
chop.
I recall the debate. Mr. Speaker, you were involved in that
debate, so you can certainly recall it too. These fellows who
are mourning today the fact that we have only cut EI premiums
four times were saying we would have to increase those premiums
and cut everything out from the support programs to make this
government operate properly. They have totally reversed
themselves.
I have been in the House for three years watching the Reform in
opposition. I heard them say three years ago “Chop and burn.
Slash and burn”. I remember Liberal government members saying
“It is bad news. The slash and burn policies they are
suggesting will destroy the economy of this country”. That was
what the the finance minister said. I do not think anything
could have been more true than his statement that slash and burn
would do no good.
We had to set reasonable targets. We had to look at each
program and deal with each program. We had to move the agenda
ahead in a proper and orderly way.
In four years we took a $42 billion deficit and reduced it to
zero. Why is the government being challenged today? It has had
tremendous success. It has taken a program of overspending by
$42 billion every year and reduced it to zero. It then, with the
EI program, took a $6 billion deficit, turned it around and now
there is a surplus. Building that surplus will cushion the
unemployed, businesses and people who need support so that in the
future when business plans change, when we run into a minor
recession or when some other problem arises we will be prepared.
1820
Liberals have always looked very carefully at what is happening
in the economy at any specific time and have made certain that in
good, solid years of business we do not bring in programs that
will hurt people. Instead we plan for the future to guard
against the difficulties that will come downstream. That is
exactly what we are doing with the EI program. We are guarding
against the potential of difficult times in the future.
Clearly it is very responsible to do that because so many
businesses suffered so badly during the recession when the
Mulroney Conservatives had to jack up the rates again and again
because of the tough times.
They are in the House today, these Reformers who were the
Tories. There is no question about that. This weekend in London
their leader said “Unite the right, but call them Reform. Don't
call them Tories”. That is interesting. Call them Reform and
make Preston Manning the leader. He wants the old Conservative
Party—
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member is an experienced
member. He knows that he must not refer to an hon. member by
name, but by constituency or title. I would invite him to do
that.
Mr. Jerry Pickard: Mr. Speaker, I got so caught up in
this that I went a little overboard.
However, the hon. leader of the Reform Party suggested that he
wanted to unite the party. In other words, he wants to take the
old right wing party, the Progressive Conservative Party, put in
a new leader in, the present leader of the Reform Party, and call
it the Reform Party.
I have some problems with that. I have some problems with how
day by day, month by month, year by year the policies of the
parties opposite change dramatically. There is good reason that
has occurred.
When it comes right down to it, we have been extremely
successful at turning the economy of this country around. We
have been extremely responsible in our actions toward small
business, in our actions toward business in general in this
country and in our actions toward preparing for any problems in
the future. We are not leaving it to chance, pulling the support
out and running at a full run.
Can anyone think of any reason the finance minister of this
country would be prepared to do anything that would not be
beneficial to the business of this country? Clearly he is
working. He is consulting. He is getting input from people
right across this country on a regular basis.
He knows that the smoother the ride the better the opportunities
will be for business to compete. The better prepared workers are
for any ups or downs in the economy, the better off this country
will be. Stability is really the key.
Our finance minister has brought stability to this country. He
has stabilized our finances so that other countries are now
looking at Canada and saying “What a remarkable transition.
What a remarkable change has occurred”.
1825
Canada was really at the bottom of the G-7 as far as its
economic outlook and prosperity for the future because of its
spending. We are now envied by everyone. Canada was struggling,
but we now have a positive, well-prepared structure for the
future.
The Prime Minister pointed out just a short time ago, before we
eliminated the deficit, to all members of the House that
governing gets tougher and tougher as we pay down the debt, as we
pay down the deficit and move toward the situation where we have
positive moneys coming in because quickly the opposition will
latch on to spending. That is what I am hearing now. The
opposition is saying that we should spend, cut taxes and do
things which will alter the whole economic structure of this
country.
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I believe the time will be expiring at 6.30 p.m. I
wonder if the hon. member would give me one minute or 30 seconds
for a question.
Mr. Jerry Pickard: Mr. Speaker, I find the intervention
quite incredible because I have never had a Reform member give me
time to speak. If that is a practice of the House, it is an
interesting practice, but I have some issues that I want to bring
forward and I believe I have 15 minutes to bring them forward.
Now I am being asked to cut my time to 10 minutes and to give
part of my time to the opposition.
Quite frankly, they have spoken all day. They have had all
kinds of speakers up. If they have omitted something, I am not
going to relinquish my time in order to give them extra time.
Let us look at where we are with our EI reforms. We have
modernized the system and we have made it far more fair to
everyone. In reality the thrust in this country has to be to
create more jobs, to do things to get people to work and not to
focus on unemployment totally. We must focus on job creation
because that runs hand in hand with EI.
EI premiums have been talked about a tremendous amount today.
But let us look at the other programs the government has put in
place to support business and to help business down the line.
The new hires program very clearly makes an issue out of what is
happening in this country. We have actually given businesses who
are going to hire youth between the ages of 18 and 24 a premium
year off so they will not have to pay those extra premiums.
We have made benefits available to women who are among the
largest number of part time workers in this country and we have
extended the plan to 68% of the people who were not eligible for
benefits before. We have extended our programs. We have tried
to do everything we can to give the worker the best opportunity.
Quite frankly, when we look at programs for youth and the
programs that we have put in place to help them, they were not
the people who got major support from EI programs, but we are
certainly doing what we can to get jobs for the young people of
this country.
We have done what we can to make sure that women, who form the
major part of the part time workforce in this country, will
benefit from the opportunities in the EI program.
We are building a fund which will make certain that there will
be stability for those people who will need stability when they
are laid off.
We have downsizing, company changes and an EI support fund that
is in a positive economic position that will be able to help
those people in the future.
1830
We have made certain we are not going to take small business
down a trail of pumping up its rates when there is a turnaround
in the economy. These are the kinds of measures the finance
minister and the government have taken to make certain there is
stability, a level playing field for everybody and fairness for
all those in the system. The fairness issue is extremely
important.
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. It being 6.30 p.m. it is my
duty to inform the House that proceedings on the motion have
expired.
The House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred divisions.
Call in the members.
* * *
1850
[English]
PARKS CANADA ACT
The House resumed from May 28 consideration of Bill C-29, an act
to establish the Parks Canada Agency and to amend other acts as a
consequence, as reported (with amendment) from the committee.
The Speaker: We will now proceed to the taking of the
deferred divisions on Bill C-29. The question is on Motion No. 1.
1900
(The House divided on Motion No. 1, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Axworthy
(Saskatoon – Rosetown – Biggar)
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
|
Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bigras
| Blaikie
| Borotsik
|
Brien
| Brison
| Casey
| Crête
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Desjarlais
| Desrochers
|
Doyle
| Dubé
(Lévis)
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duceppe
|
Earle
| Fournier
| Gagnon
| Gauthier
|
Girard - Bujold
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Guay
| Harvey
|
Herron
| Jones
| Lalonde
| Laurin
|
Lebel
| Marceau
| Marchand
| Matthews
|
McDonough
| Mercier
| Muise
| Nystrom
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Plamondon
| Proctor
| Riis
|
Sauvageau
| Solomon
| St - Hilaire
| Stoffer
|
Thompson
(Charlotte)
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Wasylycia - Leis – 52
|
NAYS
Members
Abbott
| Adams
| Alcock
| Anders
|
Anderson
| Assad
| Assadourian
| Augustine
|
Baker
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bertrand
|
Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brown
|
Bryden
| Bulte
| Byrne
| Caccia
|
Cadman
| Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
|
Carroll
| Casson
| Catterall
| Cauchon
|
Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
| Chatters
|
Clouthier
| Coderre
| Cohen
| Collenette
|
Copps
| Cullen
| Cummins
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Discepola
| Dromisky
| Drouin
|
Duhamel
| Duncan
| Easter
| Eggleton
|
Epp
| Finestone
| Finlay
| Folco
|
Fontana
| Fry
| Gagliano
| Gallaway
|
Gilmour
| Godfrey
| Goldring
| Goodale
|
Gouk
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Hanger
| Harb
|
Hart
| Harvard
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
|
Hoeppner
| Hubbard
| Ianno
| Iftody
|
Jackson
| Jaffer
| Jennings
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Karygiannis
| Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
| Kerpan
| Keyes
|
Knutson
| Konrad
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Leung
| Lincoln
| Longfield
|
Lowther
| Lunn
| MacAulay
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
| Manning
|
Marchi
| Mark
| Marleau
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
|
Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Massé
| Mayfield
| McCormick
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McNally
| McTeague
|
McWhinney
| Meredith
| Mifflin
| Minna
|
Mitchell
| Morrison
| Murray
| Myers
|
Nault
| Obhrai
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Penson
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Pickard
(Kent – Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Pratt
|
Proud
| Provenzano
| Ramsay
| Redman
|
Reed
| Reynolds
| Ritz
| Robillard
|
Saada
| Schmidt
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Scott
(Skeena)
|
Sekora
| Serré
| Shepherd
| Solberg
|
Speller
| St. Denis
| Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| St - Julien
| Strahl
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Torsney
|
Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
| Vellacott
|
Volpe
| Whelan
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
|
Wilfert – 181
|
PAIRED
Members
Alarie
| Asselin
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
| Bakopanos
|
Canuel
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Comuzzi
| Dalphond - Guiral
|
Dion
| Dumas
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Guimond
|
Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Loubier
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
|
Ménard
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Normand
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
|
Perron
| Richardson
| Rocheleau
| Rock
|
Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
| Wappel
|
The Speaker: I declare Motion No. 1 defeated.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, I believe you would
find consent to apply the results of the vote just taken on
Motion No. 1 to Motion No. 3.
The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to proceed this
way?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
[Editor's Note: See list under Division No. 182]
The Speaker: I therefore declare Motion No. 3 defeated.
The next question is on Motion No. 2. A vote on this motion
also applies to Motion No. 4.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, if the House would
agree I would propose that you seek unanimous consent that
members who voted on the previous motion be recorded as voting on
the motion now before the House, with Liberal members voting yes.
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in this
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Chuck Strahl: Mr. Speaker, Reform Party members
present vote no to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, Bloc Quebecois members
oppose this motion.
[English]
Mr. John Solomon: Mr. Speaker, NDP members present vote
yes to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, members of our party are in
favour of this motion.
[English]
(The House divided on Motion No. 2, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Anderson
| Assad
|
Assadourian
| Augustine
| Axworthy
(Saskatoon – Rosetown – Biggar)
| Baker
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bertrand
| Blaikie
|
Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
|
Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brison
| Brown
|
Bryden
| Bulte
| Byrne
| Caccia
|
Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
|
Casey
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Cohen
| Collenette
| Copps
| Cullen
|
Desjarlais
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Discepola
|
Doyle
| Dromisky
| Drouin
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
|
Duhamel
| Earle
| Easter
| Eggleton
|
Finestone
| Finlay
| Folco
| Fontana
|
Fry
| Gagliano
| Gallaway
| Godfrey
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goodale
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Harb
| Harvard
|
Harvey
| Herron
| Hubbard
| Ianno
|
Iftody
| Jackson
| Jennings
| Jones
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Knutson
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lincoln
| Longfield
| MacAulay
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
| Marchi
|
Marleau
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Massé
| Matthews
|
McCormick
| McDonough
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mifflin
| Minna
|
Mitchell
| Muise
| Murray
| Myers
|
Nault
| Nystrom
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
|
Pickard
(Kent – Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Pratt
| Proctor
|
Proud
| Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
|
Riis
| Robillard
| Saada
| Scott
(Fredericton)
|
Sekora
| Serré
| Shepherd
| Solomon
|
Speller
| St. Denis
| Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| St - Julien
| Stoffer
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Thompson
(Charlotte)
| Torsney
|
Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| Wilfert – 159
|
NAYS
Members
Abbott
| Anders
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bellehumeur
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bigras
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
|
Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brien
| Cadman
| Casson
|
Chatters
| Crête
| Cummins
| de Savoye
|
Debien
| Desrochers
| Dubé
(Lévis)
| Duceppe
|
Duncan
| Epp
| Fournier
| Gagnon
|
Gauthier
| Gilmour
| Girard - Bujold
| Goldring
|
Gouk
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Guay
| Hanger
|
Hart
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hoeppner
|
Jaffer
| Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
| Kerpan
| Konrad
|
Lalonde
| Laurin
| Lebel
| Lowther
|
Lunn
| Manning
| Marceau
| Marchand
|
Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Mayfield
| McNally
|
Mercier
| Meredith
| Morrison
| Obhrai
|
Penson
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Plamondon
| Ramsay
|
Reynolds
| Ritz
| Sauvageau
| Schmidt
|
Scott
(Skeena)
| Solberg
| St - Hilaire
| Strahl
|
Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Vellacott
|
White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
– 74
|
PAIRED
Members
Alarie
| Asselin
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
| Bakopanos
|
Canuel
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Comuzzi
| Dalphond - Guiral
|
Dion
| Dumas
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Guimond
|
Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Loubier
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
|
Ménard
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Normand
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
|
Perron
| Richardson
| Rocheleau
| Rock
|
Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
| Wappel
|
The Speaker: I declare Motion No. 2 carried. I therefore
declare Motion No. 4 carried.
The next question is on Motion No. 6.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, I think you would
find consent in the House to record the members who have just
voted as voting on the motion now before the House, with Liberals
voting no.
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Chuck Strahl: Mr. Speaker, Reform Party members vote
yes to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, of course, Bloc Quebecois
members are abviously voting in favour of this motion.
[English]
Mr. John Solomon: Mr. Speaker, NDP members present will
vote yes to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, members of our party are in
favour of this motion.
1905
[English]
The Speaker: Because I did not read the whole thing
through for you, I want you to know that the reason we did not
vote on Motion No. 5 is that the only way we would have voted on
Motion No. 5 is if Motions Nos. 2 and 4 had been defeated. They
were not defeated. They were carried.
In case I did not make it clear, I also want you to realize that
we are now voting on Motion No. 6.
(The House divided on Motion No. 6, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
| Anders
| Axworthy
(Saskatoon – Rosetown – Biggar)
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
|
Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bigras
|
Blaikie
| Borotsik
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
|
Brien
| Brison
| Cadman
| Casey
|
Casson
| Chatters
| Crête
| Cummins
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Desjarlais
| Desrochers
|
Doyle
| Dubé
(Lévis)
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duceppe
|
Duncan
| Earle
| Epp
| Fournier
|
Gagnon
| Gauthier
| Gilmour
| Girard - Bujold
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Gouk
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
|
Guay
| Hanger
| Hart
| Harvey
|
Herron
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hoeppner
|
Jaffer
| Jones
| Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
| Kerpan
|
Konrad
| Lalonde
| Laurin
| Lebel
|
Lowther
| Lunn
| Manning
| Marceau
|
Marchand
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Matthews
|
Mayfield
| McDonough
| McNally
| Mercier
|
Meredith
| Morrison
| Muise
| Nystrom
|
Obhrai
| Penson
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Plamondon
|
Proctor
| Ramsay
| Reynolds
| Riis
|
Ritz
| Sauvageau
| Schmidt
| Scott
(Skeena)
|
Solberg
| Solomon
| St - Hilaire
| Stoffer
|
Strahl
| Thompson
(Charlotte)
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
|
Turp
| Vellacott
| Wasylycia - Leis
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
|
White
(North Vancouver)
– 97
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Anderson
| Assad
|
Assadourian
| Augustine
| Baker
| Barnes
|
Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Bertrand
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
|
Bonwick
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brown
|
Bryden
| Bulte
| Byrne
| Caccia
|
Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Charbonneau
| Clouthier
| Coderre
| Cohen
|
Collenette
| Copps
| Cullen
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Discepola
| Dromisky
| Drouin
|
Duhamel
| Easter
| Eggleton
| Finestone
|
Finlay
| Folco
| Fontana
| Fry
|
Gagliano
| Gallaway
| Godfrey
| Goodale
|
Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
| Guarnieri
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Hubbard
| Ianno
|
Iftody
| Jackson
| Jennings
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Knutson
| Lastewka
|
Lavigne
| Lee
| Leung
| Lincoln
|
Longfield
| MacAulay
| Mahoney
| Malhi
|
Maloney
| Manley
| Marchi
| Marleau
|
Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Massé
| McCormick
| McGuire
|
McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mifflin
|
Minna
| Mitchell
| Murray
| Myers
|
Nault
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
|
Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
|
Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Kent – Essex)
|
Pillitteri
| Pratt
| Proud
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Robillard
| Saada
|
Scott
(Fredericton)
| Sekora
| Serré
| Shepherd
|
Speller
| St. Denis
| Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| St - Julien
| Szabo
| Telegdi
|
Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
| Valeri
|
Vanclief
| Volpe
| Whelan
| Wilfert
– 136
|
PAIRED
Members
Alarie
| Asselin
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
| Bakopanos
|
Canuel
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Comuzzi
| Dalphond - Guiral
|
Dion
| Dumas
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Guimond
|
Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Loubier
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
|
Ménard
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Normand
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
|
Perron
| Richardson
| Rocheleau
| Rock
|
Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
| Wappel
|
The Speaker: I declare Motion No. 6 defeated.
The next question is on Motion No. 7. An affirmative vote on
Motion No. 7 obviates the necessity of the question being put on
Motion No. 8 and a negative vote on Motion No. 7 requires a
question being put on Motion No. 8.
[Translation]
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, I believe you would find
there is unanimous consent for members who voted on the previous
motion to be recorded as having voted on the motion now before
the House, with Liberal members voting nay.
[English]
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Chuck Strahl: Mr. Speaker, the official opposition
votes yes to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, Bloc Quebecois members
oppose this motion.
[English]
Mr. John Solomon: Mr. Speaker, NDP members present vote
no to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, members of our party oppose this
motion.
[English]
(The House divided on Motion No. 7, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
| Anders
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
|
Cadman
| Casson
| Chatters
| Cummins
|
Duncan
| Epp
| Gilmour
| Goldring
|
Gouk
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Hanger
| Hart
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hoeppner
| Jaffer
|
Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
| Kerpan
| Konrad
| Lowther
|
Lunn
| Manning
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
|
Mayfield
| McNally
| Meredith
| Morrison
|
Obhrai
| Penson
| Ramsay
| Reynolds
|
Ritz
| Schmidt
| Scott
(Skeena)
| Solberg
|
Strahl
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Vellacott
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
|
White
(North Vancouver)
– 45
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Anderson
| Assad
|
Assadourian
| Augustine
| Axworthy
(Saskatoon – Rosetown – Biggar)
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
|
Baker
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellehumeur
| Bellemare
| Bennett
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bertrand
| Bigras
|
Blaikie
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
|
Borotsik
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brien
|
Brison
| Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
|
Byrne
| Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
|
Caplan
| Carroll
| Casey
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
|
Clouthier
| Coderre
| Cohen
| Collenette
|
Copps
| Crête
| Cullen
| de Savoye
|
Debien
| Desjarlais
| Desrochers
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Discepola
| Doyle
| Dromisky
|
Drouin
| Dubé
(Lévis)
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duceppe
|
Duhamel
| Earle
| Easter
| Eggleton
|
Finestone
| Finlay
| Folco
| Fontana
|
Fournier
| Fry
| Gagliano
| Gagnon
|
Gallaway
| Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
| Godfrey
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goodale
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Guay
| Harb
|
Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
| Hubbard
|
Ianno
| Iftody
| Jackson
| Jennings
|
Jones
| Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
|
Knutson
| Lalonde
| Lastewka
| Laurin
|
Lavigne
| Lebel
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lincoln
| Longfield
| MacAulay
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
| Marceau
|
Marchand
| Marchi
| Marleau
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
|
Massé
| Matthews
| McCormick
| McDonough
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
|
Mercier
| Mifflin
| Minna
| Mitchell
|
Muise
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Nystrom
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
|
Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
|
Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Picard
(Drummond)
|
Pickard
(Kent – Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Plamondon
| Pratt
|
Proctor
| Proud
| Provenzano
| Redman
|
Reed
| Riis
| Robillard
| Saada
|
Sauvageau
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
| St - Hilaire
|
St - Julien
| Stoffer
| Szabo
| Telegdi
|
Thibeault
| Thompson
(Charlotte)
| Torsney
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
|
Turp
| Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
|
Volpe
| Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| Wilfert
– 188
|
PAIRED
Members
Alarie
| Asselin
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
| Bakopanos
|
Canuel
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Comuzzi
| Dalphond - Guiral
|
Dion
| Dumas
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Guimond
|
Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Loubier
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
|
Ménard
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Normand
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
|
Perron
| Richardson
| Rocheleau
| Rock
|
Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
| Wappel
|
The Speaker: I declare Motion No. 7 defeated. A negative
vote on this motion requires the question being put on Motion No. 8.
The next question is on Motion No. 8.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, I believe if you
would find unanimous consent in the House to apply the results of
the vote just taken to Motion No. 8 but in reverse.
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
The Speaker: Agreed.
(The House divided on Motion No. 8, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Anderson
| Assad
|
Assadourian
| Augustine
| Axworthy
(Saskatoon – Rosetown – Biggar)
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
|
Baker
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellehumeur
| Bellemare
| Bennett
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bertrand
| Bigras
|
Blaikie
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
|
Borotsik
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brien
|
Brison
| Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
|
Byrne
| Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
|
Caplan
| Carroll
| Casey
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
|
Clouthier
| Coderre
| Cohen
| Collenette
|
Copps
| Crête
| Cullen
| de Savoye
|
Debien
| Desjarlais
| Desrochers
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Discepola
| Doyle
| Dromisky
|
Drouin
| Dubé
(Lévis)
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duceppe
|
Duhamel
| Earle
| Easter
| Eggleton
|
Finestone
| Finlay
| Folco
| Fontana
|
Fournier
| Fry
| Gagliano
| Gagnon
|
Gallaway
| Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
| Godfrey
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goodale
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Guay
| Harb
|
Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
| Hubbard
|
Ianno
| Iftody
| Jackson
| Jennings
|
Jones
| Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
|
Knutson
| Lalonde
| Lastewka
| Laurin
|
Lavigne
| Lebel
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lincoln
| Longfield
| MacAulay
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
| Marceau
|
Marchand
| Marchi
| Marleau
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
|
Massé
| Matthews
| McCormick
| McDonough
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
|
Mercier
| Mifflin
| Minna
| Mitchell
|
Muise
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Nystrom
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
|
Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
|
Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Picard
(Drummond)
|
Pickard
(Kent – Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Plamondon
| Pratt
|
Proctor
| Proud
| Provenzano
| Redman
|
Reed
| Riis
| Robillard
| Saada
|
Sauvageau
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
| St - Hilaire
|
St - Julien
| Stoffer
| Szabo
| Telegdi
|
Thibeault
| Thompson
(Charlotte)
| Torsney
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
|
Turp
| Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
|
Volpe
| Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| Wilfert
– 188
|
NAYS
Members
Abbott
| Anders
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
|
Cadman
| Casson
| Chatters
| Cummins
|
Duncan
| Epp
| Gilmour
| Goldring
|
Gouk
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Hanger
| Hart
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hoeppner
| Jaffer
|
Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
| Kerpan
| Konrad
| Lowther
|
Lunn
| Manning
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
|
Mayfield
| McNally
| Meredith
| Morrison
|
Obhrai
| Penson
| Ramsay
| Reynolds
|
Ritz
| Schmidt
| Scott
(Skeena)
| Solberg
|
Strahl
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Vellacott
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
|
White
(North Vancouver)
– 45
|
PAIRED
Members
Alarie
| Asselin
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
| Bakopanos
|
Canuel
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Comuzzi
| Dalphond - Guiral
|
Dion
| Dumas
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Guimond
|
Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Loubier
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
|
Ménard
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Normand
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
|
Perron
| Richardson
| Rocheleau
| Rock
|
Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
| Wappel
|
The Speaker: I declare Motion No. 8 carried.
Hon. Sheila Copps (Minister of Canadian Heritage, Lib.)
moved that the bill be concurred in.
1910
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, I believe you would
find consent in the House that the members who voted on the
previous motion be recorded as voting on the motion now before
the House, with Liberal members voting yes.
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Mr. Chuck Strahl: Mr. Speaker, Reformers vote yes to this
concurrence motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, of course, Bloc Quebecois
members are in favour of this motion.
[English]
Mr. John Solomon: Mr. Speaker, NDP members vote no to
this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, members of our party are in
favour of this motion.
[English]
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
| Adams
| Alcock
| Anders
|
Anderson
| Assad
| Assadourian
| Augustine
|
Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Baker
| Barnes
| Beaumier
|
Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellehumeur
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bertrand
|
Bigras
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
|
Borotsik
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
|
Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brien
| Brison
| Brown
|
Bryden
| Bulte
| Byrne
| Caccia
|
Cadman
| Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
|
Carroll
| Casey
| Casson
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
|
Chatters
| Clouthier
| Coderre
| Cohen
|
Collenette
| Copps
| Crête
| Cullen
|
Cummins
| de Savoye
| Debien
| Desrochers
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Discepola
| Doyle
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Dubé
(Lévis)
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
|
Duceppe
| Duhamel
| Duncan
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Epp
| Finestone
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Fontana
| Fournier
| Fry
|
Gagliano
| Gagnon
| Gallaway
| Gauthier
|
Gilmour
| Girard - Bujold
| Godfrey
| Goldring
|
Goodale
| Gouk
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Guay
|
Hanger
| Harb
| Hart
| Harvard
|
Harvey
| Herron
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
|
Hoeppner
| Hubbard
| Ianno
| Iftody
|
Jackson
| Jaffer
| Jennings
| Jones
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
| Kerpan
|
Keyes
| Knutson
| Konrad
| Lalonde
|
Lastewka
| Laurin
| Lavigne
| Lebel
|
Lee
| Leung
| Lincoln
| Longfield
|
Lowther
| Lunn
| MacAulay
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
| Manning
|
Marceau
| Marchand
| Marchi
| Mark
|
Marleau
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Massé
|
Matthews
| Mayfield
| McCormick
| McGuire
|
McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McNally
| McTeague
| McWhinney
|
Mercier
| Meredith
| Mifflin
| Minna
|
Mitchell
| Morrison
| Muise
| Murray
|
Myers
| Nault
| Obhrai
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
|
O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
|
Patry
| Penson
| Peric
| Peterson
|
Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Pickard
(Kent – Essex)
|
Pillitteri
| Plamondon
| Pratt
| Proud
|
Provenzano
| Ramsay
| Redman
| Reed
|
Reynolds
| Ritz
| Robillard
| Saada
|
Sauvageau
| Schmidt
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Scott
(Skeena)
|
Sekora
| Serré
| Shepherd
| Solberg
|
Speller
| St. Denis
| Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| St - Hilaire
| St - Julien
| Strahl
|
Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Thompson
(Charlotte)
|
Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Torsney
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
|
Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
| Vellacott
|
Volpe
| Whelan
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
|
Wilfert – 221
|
NAYS
Members
Axworthy
(Saskatoon – Rosetown – Biggar)
| Blaikie
| Desjarlais
| Earle
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| McDonough
| Nystrom
| Proctor
|
Riis
| Solomon
| Stoffer
| Wasylycia - Leis – 12
|
PAIRED
Members
Alarie
| Asselin
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
| Bakopanos
|
Canuel
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Comuzzi
| Dalphond - Guiral
|
Dion
| Dumas
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Guimond
|
Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Loubier
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
|
Ménard
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Normand
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
|
Perron
| Richardson
| Rocheleau
| Rock
|
Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
| Wappel
|
The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
* * *
NUNAVUT ACT
The House resumed from May 28 consideration of the motion that
Bill C-39, an act to amend the Nunavut Act and the Constitution
Act, 1867, be read the third time and passed; and of the
amendment.
The Speaker: Shall I dispense with the reading of the
amendment?
Some hon. members: No.
[Editor's Note: Chair read text of amendment to the
House]
The Speaker: The question is on the amendment.
1915
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, if the House would
agree, I would ask that you seek unanimous consent so that the
members who voted on the previous motion be recorded as voting on
the motion now before the House with Liberal members voting no.
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Mr. Chuck Strahl: Mr. Speaker, Reformers are very pleased
to vote yes to this amendment.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, Bloc Quebecois members
oppose this motion.
[English]
Mr. John Solomon: Mr. Speaker, NDP members vote no on
this matter.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, members of our party oppose this
motion.
[English]
[Editor's Note: See list under Division No. 185]
The Speaker: I declare the amendment defeated.
ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
[English]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to
have been moved.
HEPATITIS C
Mr. Greg Thompson (Charlotte, PC): Mr. Speaker, tonight I
am on the hepatitis C issue again. It goes back to the original
compensation package that was announced by the government some
months ago.
Many of us are concerned about the package because it only
includes those innocent victims from the years 1986 to 1990. I
think that most Canadians expect more than that for a number of
reasons. We have to realize that these are innocent victims of a
tainted blood supply.
1920
Going back to the original Krever inquiry and the report of
Justice Krever, he states that all victims should be compensated
regardless of the years when they were infected. That is only
fair.
As I have mentioned in this House time and time again, Canada by
far is the number one country in the world. We are rated as the
best country in the world by the United Nations. We are a very
fair and a very generous country. Most Canadians want to see that
fairness and generosity expressed in that compensation package.
We have had some pretty heated discussions in this House on that
compensation package. Up to now those victims prior to 1986 are
not being compensated. We do not have any consideration being
given to those victims after 1990. We are talking I suppose
conservatively about a group of people which could be less than
20,000. The government has led us to believe that the number
could be over 60,000.
Unfortunately, the government cannot substantiate that number.
One would ask why it would use a number that cannot be
substantiated. I think the reason the government did that is that
it might go beyond the government's capacity to pay if the number
was large enough. That is the sort of convoluted logic in my way
of thinking. That is why the hepatitis C association tells us
that yes, the government officials inflated the number making it
appear as if it was beyond the capacity of the government to pay
compensation to those victims. The number is far less than that.
Some experts put the number down as low as 8,000 to 12,000 yet to
be compensated.
The good news out of all of this to this point, if there is any
good news at all, if there is a little comfort we can take in
what has happened is that the provinces and the federal
government are back at the negotiating table. They are back
today as we speak.
I think there is a glimmer of hope that the federal government
might come up with something for those victims left outside the
package. At the end of the day, it is not the provinces, it is
not the provincial health ministers that are responsible for the
safety of Canada's blood supply system. Members know that the
buck stops at the doorstep of the federal health minister. The
federal health minister himself is responsible for the safety of
Canada's blood supply system. He is back at the bargaining table
with the provinces today.
I am hopeful that a package will be arrived at. We are looking
for generosity on the part of the federal government on behalf of
the Prime Minister and his government and we are hoping that is
what happens in the next couple of days. We are hopeful that that
will happen. What we want to see is simply compensation for all
those innocent victims of a tainted blood supply system
regardless of when they were infected.
Mr. Joseph Volpe (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I want to take up where the hon.
member left off with the themes of generosity and fairness.
I think he will be among the first to recognize that prior to
the actions of the federal government and the minister, there was
a reluctance to apply either one of those two terms to the entire
process as seen through the eyes of the victims, those he quite
rightly calls the innocent victims of a terrible tragedy in
Canadian blood history.
He would also at the same time acknowledge that the federal
government has acted with great generosity. It has acted with a
great sense of fairness. It has acted with great deliberateness
in bringing all of the partners together to the table.
He well knows that a mere one year ago these concepts were not
even on the table. There was no discussion of compensation. The
only issue was how well all the governments of Canada would
disseminate information that would allow victims to deal with
their sickness, with their disease in relative comfort.
We are now looking at a package arrived at, cobbled together by
all the governments, the territories, the provinces and the
federal government on, number one, a package of compensation.
Equally important and perhaps even more so in the eyes of many is
that there is an entire package for additional services for those
who have been smitten by this disease.
Most of us have been taken up with the issue of compensating one
group as opposed to another but there has never been a
distinction on the part of the federal government. The idea was
that it would act on behalf of all our citizens.
With due regard to the issue that the opposition have raised up
until this point which is the question of avoidability, if
governments could have acted differently and did not do so, then
there should be compensation. But in all cases there should be
at least a series of measures in place to allow people to live
their lives as normally as possible under the circumstances.
The Speaker: The motion to adjourn the House is now
deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly the House stands
adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order
24(1).
(The House adjourned at 7.24 p.m.)