36th Parliament, 1st Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 120
CONTENTS
Thursday, June 11, 1998
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
0900
| INTERPARLIAMENTARY DELEGATION
|
| Mr. Pierre de Savoye |
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Transport
|
| Mr. Raymond Bonin |
0905
| Citizenship and Immigration
|
| Mr. Stan Dromisky |
| GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| PARLIAMENT OF CANADA ACT
|
| Bill C-47. Introduction and first reading
|
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| MARINE CONSERVATION AREAS ACT
|
| Bill C-48. Introduction and first reading
|
| Hon. Andy Mitchell |
| FIRST NATIONS LAND MANAGEMENT ACT
|
| Bill C-49. Introduction and first reading
|
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
|
| Bill C-422. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Raymond Bonin |
0910
| PARLIAMENT OF CANADA ACT
|
| Bill C-423. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. John Solomon |
| INTERNET CHILD PORNOGRAPHY PREVENTION ACT
|
| Bill C-424. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Chris Axworthy |
| CRIMINAL CODE
|
| Bill C-425. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
0915
| CRIMINAL CODE
|
| Bill 426. Introduction and first reading.
|
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
| NATIONAL DEFENCE ACT
|
| Bill C-427. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Richard Marceau |
| PETITIONS
|
| Kosovo
|
| Mr. Bill Graham |
| Nuclear Weapons
|
| Mr. Andrew Telegdi |
| Age of Consent
|
| Mr. Andrew Telegdi |
| Gun Control
|
| Mr. Lee Morrison |
0920
| Trans-Canada Highway
|
| Mr. Lee Morrison |
| Marriage
|
| Mr. Lee Morrison |
| Public Safety Officers Compensation Fund
|
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
| Marriage
|
| Ms. Marlene Catterall |
| Kosovo
|
| Ms. Marlene Catterall |
| Bioartificial Kidney Project
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
0925
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| Mr. Mark Muise |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| NATIONAL PARKS ACT
|
| Bill C-38. Report Stage
|
| Speaker's Ruling
|
| The Deputy Speaker |
| Motions in Amendment
|
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
| Motions Nos. 1 and 2
|
0930
| Mr. Paul Bonwick |
| Mr. Keith Martin |
0935
0940
| Mr. Rick Laliberte |
| Mr. Mark Muise |
0945
| Division on Motion No. 2 deemed demanded and deferred
|
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
| Motion No. 3
|
0950
0955
| Mr. Paul Bonwick |
1000
| Mr. Mark Muise |
| Mr. Rick Laliberte |
1005
1010
| Hon. Andy Mitchell |
| (Division deemed demanded and deferred)
|
| JUDGES ACT
|
| Bill C-37. Third reading
|
| Hon. Marcel Massé |
| Ms. Eleni Bakopanos |
1015
1020
1025
1030
| Mr. Jack Ramsay |
1035
1040
1045
1050
1055
1100
| Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
1105
1110
1115
1120
1125
1130
| Mr. Peter Mancini |
1135
1140
1145
1150
| Mrs. Marlene Jennings |
1155
1200
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
1205
1210
1215
1220
| Mr. John Bryden |
1225
1230
| Mr. Derek Lee |
1235
1240
1245
1250
| Mr. John Bryden |
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
1255
| Division deemed demanded and deferred
|
1300
| NATIONAL PARKS ACT
|
| Bill C-38. Report stage
|
1325
(Division 216)
| Motion No. 2 negatived
|
1330
(Division 217)
| Motion No. 3 negatived.
|
| Motion for concurrence
|
| Hon. Sheila Copps |
1335
(Division 218)
| Motion agreed to
|
| JUDGES ACT
|
| Bill C-37. Third reading
|
1340
(Division 219)
| NATIONAL DEFENCE ACT
|
| Bill C-25. Third reading
|
(Division 220)
| MI'KMAQ EDUCATION ACT
|
| Bill C-30. Third reading
|
(Division 221)
| CANADIAN WHEAT BOARD
|
| Bill C-4. Motion for concurrence in Senate Amendments.
|
1345
(Division 222)
| Amendment negatived
|
(Division 223)
| Motion agreed to
|
| Suspension of Sitting
|
| Ms. Marlene Catterall |
1355
| Sitting Resumed
|
| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| PUBLIC SERVICE OF CANADA
|
| Mr. Gurbax Singh Malhi |
| PROSTATE CANCER RESEARCH
|
| Mr. Ted White |
| MICHAEL STARR
|
| Mr. Ivan Grose |
1400
| SAEED BAGHBANI
|
| Mr. John Cannis |
| ICELAND
|
| Mr. John Harvard |
| BUSINESSLINC PROJECT
|
| Ms. Aileen Carroll |
| THE SENATE
|
| Mr. Howard Hilstrom |
| SKYLINK AVIATION INC.
|
| Ms. Shaughnessy Cohen |
1405
| S. MATTE HARDWARE STORE IN SAINT-TITE
|
| Mr. Réjean Lefebvre |
| THE JUDICIARY
|
| Mr. Reed Elley |
| JUSTICE LOUIS-PHILIPPE PIGEON
|
| Mr. Claude Drouin |
| DAVIS DAY
|
| Mrs. Michelle Dockrill |
| SAGUENAY-LAC-SAINT-JEAN
|
| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
1410
| INDIAN AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Bernard Patry |
| SENIOR CITIZENS MONTH
|
| Mr. Jean Dubé |
| FIRST NATIONS LAND MANAGEMENT ACT
|
| Mrs. Karen Kraft Sloan |
| GREAT BRITAIN
|
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
| NATIONAL CAPITAL COMMISSION
|
| Mr. Jim Abbott |
1415
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
| HEALTH
|
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
1420
| Mr. Grant Hill |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| THE ECONOMY
|
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| ATLANTIC GROUNDFISH STRATEGY
|
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
1425
| Mr. Yvan Bernier |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| Mr. Yvan Bernier |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| HEALTH
|
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
1430
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE
|
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Hon. Andy Scott |
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Hon. Andy Scott |
| CANADIAN ARMED FORCES
|
| Mr. Art Hanger |
| Mr. John Richardson |
| Mr. Art Hanger |
| Mr. John Richardson |
1435
| ATLANTIC GROUNDFISH STRATEGY
|
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| CANADIAN ARMED FORCES
|
| Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
| Mr. John Richardson |
| Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
1440
| Mr. John Richardson |
| AIR TRANSPORTATION
|
| Mr. Michel Guimond |
| Hon. David M. Collenette |
| Mr. Michel Guimond |
| Hon. David M. Collenette |
| CANDU REACTORS
|
| Mr. Charlie Penson |
| Hon. Sergio Marchi |
| Mr. Charlie Penson |
| Hon. Sergio Marchi |
1445
| AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY
|
| Mrs. Francine Lalonde |
| Hon. John Manley |
| YEAR 2000
|
| Mr. Alex Shepherd |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Mike Scott |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Mike Scott |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
1450
| BANKS
|
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| NATURAL RESOURCES
|
| Mr. Gerald Keddy |
| Hon. Ralph E. Goodale |
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. John Herron |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
1455
| CALGARY DECLARATION
|
| Ms. Raymonde Folco |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| VETERANS
|
| Mr. Peter Goldring |
| Mr. Ted McWhinney |
| FISHERIES
|
| Mr. John Cummins |
| Hon. David Anderson |
| BC MINE IN BLACK LAKE
|
| Mr. Pierre de Savoye |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
1500
| FOREIGN AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
| Hon. Sergio Marchi |
| FISHERIES
|
| Mr. Bill Matthews |
| Hon. David Anderson |
1505
| HOUSE OF COMMONS PAGES
|
| The Speaker |
| BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
|
| Mr. Randy White |
| Hon. Don Boudria |
1510
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| PARLIAMENT OF CANADA ACT
|
| Bill C-47. Second reading
|
| Hon. Don Boudria |
1515
1520
| Mr. Randy White |
1525
1530
1535
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
1540
1545
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
1550
1555
1600
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
1605
1610
| Mr. Ted White |
| Hon. Don Boudria |
1615
| Mr. Jim Hart |
1620
1625
| Mr. Jay Hill |
1630
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
1635
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
1640
| Motion for concurrence
|
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| Third Reading
|
1645
1650
| THE ROYAL ASSENT
|
| The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland) |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| PARLIAMENT OF CANADA ACT
|
| Bill C-47. Third reading
|
| Mr. Randy White |
1655
1700
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
1705
1710
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
1715
| MESSAGE FROM THE SENATE
|
| The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland) |
| THE ROYAL ASSENT
|
1720
1730
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES READJUSTMENT ACT
|
| Bill C-410. Second reading and concurrence in Senate
amendments
|
| Ms. Marlene Catterall |
| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
1735
| INCOME TAX ACT
|
| Bill C-227. Second reading
|
| Mr. David Chatters |
1740
1745
1750
| Mr. Tony Valeri |
1755
| Mr. Dick Proctor |
1800
1805
| Mr. Gilles Bernier |
1810
| Mr. David Chatters |
1815
| ACCESS TO INFORMATION ACT
|
| Mr. John Bryden |
| INCOME TAX ACT
|
1820
| ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
|
| National Highway System
|
| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
1825
| Mr. Peter Adams |
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 120
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Thursday, June 11, 1998
The House met at 9 a.m.
Prayers
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
0900
[Translation]
INTERPARLIAMENTARY DELEGATION
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 34, I have the honour to table, in
both official languages, two reports of the Canadian section of
the International Assembly of French Speaking Parliamentarians,
as well as the financial report relating thereto.
The first report relates to the forum on the information highway
and the parliamentary francophonie, held on April 20, 1998 at
Quebec City. The second relates to the AIPLF commission on
education, communication and cultural affairs, which met April
21 and 22, also at Quebec City.
* * *
[English]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
TRANSPORT
Mr. Raymond Bonin (Nickel Belt, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have the honour to present, in both official languages, the
fourth report of the Standing Committee on Transport with respect
to the review of passenger rail services offered by VIA Rail and
the means to revitalize this important mode of transportation
within the context of the fiscal and environment concerns facing
the government entitled “The Renaissance of Passenger Rail in
Canada”.
In so doing I thank committee members for their hard work in the
short period of time they were present at meetings. They had
many meetings per day and per week. In particular I thank the
parliamentary secretary who has a lot of experience and who has
assisted me as a new chairman of the committee.
We believe that this document will allow government to insert
into the passenger rail system opportunities for everyone to
contribute to this great service.
0905
I also thank opposition members of the committee, some of whom
are present here. They worked very well with government members.
We believe this report is the product of much co-operation.
CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Thunder Bay—Atikokan, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have the honour to present, in both official
languages, the first report of the Standing Committee on
Citizenship and Immigration entitled “Immigration, Detention and
Removal”, which concerns the important functions of citizenship
and immigration.
Officially for the record I acknowledge the dedication,
co-operation and harmonious manner in which all members of the
committee worked on this awesome task. They were totally
dedicated and I appreciated it.
Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Speaker, I ask for unanimous consent
to revert to tabling of documents in order for me to table the
responses to a good number of petitions.
The Deputy Speaker: Does the House give its consent to
revert to tabling of documents for the purpose indicated?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
* * *
[Translation]
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant
to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in both
official languages, the government's response to 16 petitions.
* * *
[English]
PARLIAMENT OF CANADA ACT
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.) moved for leave to introduce Bill C-47, an act
to amend the Parliament of Canada Act, the Members of Parliament
Retiring Allowances Act and the Salaries Act.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
The Deputy Speaker: When shall the bill be read the
second time? Later this day in accordance with special order
adopted yesterday.
Some hon. members: Agreed.
* * *
MARINE CONSERVATION AREAS ACT
Hon. Andy Mitchell (for the Minister of Canadian Heritage)
moved for leave to introduce Bill C-48, an act respecting marine
conservation areas.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
FIRST NATIONS LAND MANAGEMENT ACT
Hon. Jane Stewart (for the Minister of National Revenue)
moved for leave to introduce Bill C-49, an act providing for the
ratification and the bringing into effect of the Framework
Agreement on First Nation Land Management.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
ACT
Mr. Raymond Bonin (Nickel Belt, Lib.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-422, an act to amend the Canadian
Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission Act (annual
report).
0910
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to table the bill
entitled an act to amend the Radio-television and
Telecommunications Commission Act (annual report).
The CRTC exercises incredible influence on what Canadians hear
on the radio and watch on television and how much they pay for
cable and local telephone services.
This power must be tempered by public accountability. The bill
will make the CRTC more accountable to Canada's elected
parliamentarians and ensure a stronger voice for Canadians in
decisions affecting broadcasting and telecommunications.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
PARLIAMENT OF CANADA ACT
Mr. John Solomon (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, NDP) moved
for leave to introduce Bill C-423, an act to amend the Parliament
of Canada Act (meetings of the Board of Internal Economy.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to introduce an act to amend
the Parliament of Canada Act with respect to the meetings of the
Board of Internal Economy.
As parliamentarians know, the Board of Internal Economy is a
very secretive operation. Decisions taken there are very
important not only to this precinct but to the public as well.
The public is not allowed at this point to attend meetings. Nor
are members of parliament.
The purpose of the bill is to allow members and others with an
interest to attend and observe meetings of the board. The bill
makes board meetings public with the exception of those devoted
to certain specific topics like management, personnel or matters
before the court.
This follows up on many other jurisdictions like Saskatchewan
which has public attendance at board of internal economy
meetings.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
INTERNET CHILD PORNOGRAPHY PREVENTION ACT
Mr. Chris Axworthy (Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, NDP)
moved for leave to introduce Bill C-424, an act to prevent the
use of the Internet to distribute pornographic material involving
children.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of the bill is to prevent the
use of the Internet to unlawfully promote, display, describe or
facilitate participation in unlawful sexual activity involving
young persons.
We know that the possession of child pornography in most
circumstances is a crime in Canada but there are significant
difficulties with regard to the Internet.
What the bill would do is require the Internet service providers
to be licensed by the CRTC and then to constitute an offence for
an Internet service provider to knowingly permit the use of its
service for the placing of child pornography on the Internet by
anyone who has been convicted of an offence or by somebody who is
committing an offence under the act.
It also provides for the Minister of Industry to block access to
certain types of materials when he or she becomes aware of them.
It provides for the use of search warrants on the Internet on the
same grounds that would be available for search warrants under
the Criminal Code in general.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.) moved for
leave to introduce Bill C-425, an act to amend the Criminal Code
(public disclosure of the names of persons who have served a
sentence of imprisonment for an offence of a sexual nature).
He said: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the bill this
morning. This enactment amends the Criminal Code to provide a
mechanism for public disclosure of the names of certain criminals
when they have served their sentence of imprisonment.
Under this enactment a person who believes on reasonable grounds
that another person who has been sentenced to a term of
imprisonment for an offence of a sexual nature will commit the
same offence or another offence of a sexual nature may, before
the date fixed for the expiration of that person's sentence with
the consent of the attorney general, lay an information before a
provincial court judge.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
0915
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.) moved for
leave to introduce Bill C-426, an act to amend the Criminal
Code.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to introduce this Private
Members' Bill. The purpose of this enactment is to amend the
Criminal Code to permit legitimate research into a jury's
deliberative process with a view to improving the administration
of justice.
This bill is being introduced as a result of the Guy Paul Morin
inquiry and the recommendations coming out of that inquiry made
by Judge Kaufman pertaining to jury deliberations.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
[Translation]
NATIONAL DEFENCE ACT
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-427, an act to amend the National Defence Act
(Her Majesty's Canadian Ship).
He said: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak in this House, and
with you in the Chair, moreover, to introduce this bill which is
aimed at continuing the francization that has been begun within
the Canadian Armed Forces, and at doing away with the use of
HMCS, Her Majesty's Canadian Ship, as the official title of the
ships of the Canadian navy.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
[English]
PETITIONS
KOSOVO
Mr. Bill Graham (Toronto Centre—Rosedale, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, on behalf of some of my constituents I wish to present
petitions concerning the Kosovo crisis. The petitioners have
specific recommendations for the Canadian government which they
believe will encourage a peaceful solution to the problems in
that region.
NUCLEAR WEAPONS
Mr. Andrew Telegdi (Kitchener—Waterloo, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased that you are able to see all the way back
here.
I am presenting two petitions. One petition is regarding the
abolition of nuclear weapons. It reads “Your petitioners pray
and request that parliament support immediate initiation and —”
The Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. member is not
permitted to read the petition. I know he will want to summarize
it briefly for the House in accordance with the rules.
Mr. Andrew Telegdi: Basically it calls for the abolition
of nuclear weapons by the year 2000 and to set forth a binding
timetable. In particular seeing what happened in Pakistan and
India, this is something that we would all applaud.
AGE OF CONSENT
Mr. Andrew Telegdi (Kitchener—Waterloo, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the next petition relates to the age of consent for
sexual activity. The petitioners ask parliament that the age be
raised to 18, with the exception of husband and wife
relationships.
GUN CONTROL
Mr. Lee Morrison (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I have 11 petitions. You will be pleased to know that
nine of them are identical in form and content. These nine
petitions originate from about a dozen small Saskatchewan
communities with a few signatures also from northern and eastern
Alberta.
The petitioners wish to draw the attention of this House to the
uselessness of the proposed new gun regulations of Bill C-68.
They draw to our attention the fact that the search and seizure
provisions and other infringements on civil liberties included in
Bill C-68 are an affront to law-abiding Canadians. They
therefore pray and call upon parliament to repeal Bill C-68 and
all associated regulations with respect to firearms or ammunition
and to pass new legislation designed to severely penalize the
criminal use of any weapon.
0920
On those nine petitions, there are 1,815 signatures which brings
the total that I have presented in the last few weeks on that
particular subject to more than 3,000.
TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY
Mr. Lee Morrison (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Ref.): The
next petition is from residents mainly of Gull Lake and Medicine
Hat regarding the death strip on the Trans-Canada Highway.
These 244 petitioners are pointing out that the section of
highway between Gull Lake, Saskatchewan and the Alberta border is
a disgrace to our national highway system and that the Canadian
government should immediately enter into negotiations with the
Government of Saskatchewan to finance the twinning of that
section.
MARRIAGE
Mr. Lee Morrison (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, this is the last petition I have. There are 37
signatures on this petition. It is from citizens of Limerick and
Assiniboia, Saskatchewan.
The petitioners draw the attention of the House to the fact that
most Canadians understand the concept of marriage as a voluntary
union of an unmarried male and an unmarried female and that it is
the duty of parliament to ensure that marriage as it has always
been known and understood in Canada is preserved and protected.
The petitioners pray that parliament enact Bill C-225, an act to
amend the Marriage Act and the Interpretation Act so as to define
in the statute that a marriage can only be entered into between a
single male and a single female.
The Deputy Speaker: When the hon. member for Cypress
Hills—Grasslands started citing a petition from Limerick, I
thought he was going to break into verse.
PUBLIC SAFETY OFFICERS COMPENSATION FUND
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
am pleased to present a petition on behalf of a number of
Canadians, including from my own riding of Mississauga South. It
concerns our police officers and firefighters.
The petitioners would like to draw to the attention of the House
that police officers and firefighters are required to place their
lives at risk on a daily basis as they discharge their duties.
When one of them loses their life in the line of duty the
employee benefits often do not provide adequately for their
surviving family members. Further, the public also mourns that
loss and wishes to recognize in a tangible way the officers who
are killed and to assist their surviving family members.
The petitioners therefore call upon parliament to establish a
public safety officers compensation fund for the families of
police officers, firefighters and all public safety officers who
are killed in the line of duty.
MARRIAGE
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have one petition to present calling upon parliament
to enact Bill C-225, an act to amend the Marriage Act.
KOSOVO
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.): I have
a second petition following a meeting with representatives of
Canadians of Serbian descent calling to parliament's attention
that the actions of the Canadian government with regard to Serbia
are in their views non-democratic. The petitioners are asking
that the House of Commons consider the best interests of all
citizens of Serbia for peace and democracy in the Kosovo region.
BIOARTIFICIAL KIDNEY PROJECT
Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have
another petition from the people of Peterborough on behalf of the
18,000 Canadians suffering from end stage kidney disease.
These people recognize that kidney dialysis and kidney
transplants are very important lifesaving treatments. They point
out that access to dialysis treatment and the rate of organ
donations are not sufficient to meet the need.
The petitioners call upon parliament to work and support
research toward the development of a bioartificial kidney that
will eventually eliminate the need for both dialysis and
transplantation for those suffering from kidney disease.
This petition is particularly important to the people of Mount
St. Joseph and Milltronics.
* * *
0925
[Translation]
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would
ask that all questions be allowed to stand.
The Deputy Speaker: Is it agreed?
[English]
Mr. Mark Muise (West Nova, PC): Mr. Speaker, I rise on a
point of order. I respectfully ask the hon. member when we could
expect an answer to Question No. 21 which we asked not so long
ago, I believe it was on October 3, 1997. Can we get some kind
of commitment as to when that answer could be expected?
Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Speaker, I know that the member and
his colleagues have been particularly interested in Question No.
21. As I pointed out, this has required inquiries of every
department in the government. I can assure the member there will
be a response before the end of this session.
The Deputy Speaker: Whenever that may be.
Mr. Mark Muise: Mr. Speaker, is the end of the session
the end of this parliament or the end of this sitting session?
The Deputy Speaker: That is an academic question. The
hon. parliamentary secretary may wish to illumine us on that.
Mr. Peter Adams: It is a very good question and the
answer is yes.
The Deputy Speaker: Shall the remaining questions stand?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[Translation]
NATIONAL PARKS ACT
The House resumed consideration of Bill C-38, an act to amend the
National Parks Act, as reported (without amendment) from the
committee.
SPEAKER'S RULING
The Deputy Speaker: There are three motions in amendment
standing on the notice paper for the report stage of Bill C-38,
an act to amend the National Parks Act.
The motions will be grouped for debate as follows:
(a) Motions Nos. 1 and 2 will be voted on separately;
(b) Motion No. 3 will be debated and voted on separately.
I shall now put Motions Nos. 1 and 2 to the House.
MOTIONS IN AMENDMENT
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ) moved:
That Bill C-38 be
amended by replacing the title on page 1 with the following:
“An Act to amend the National Parks Act (creation of Tuktuk
Nogait National Park)”
That Bill C-38, in
Clause 1, be amendedby replacing line 8 on page 1 with the
following:
She said: Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would like to seek the
unanimous consent of the House to make a change to Motion No. 1
because, both in French and in English, the name of the Tuktut
Nogait park has been misspelled.
I therefore seek unanimous consent to replace the last “k” with
a “t” so the title of the act reads as follows: an act to amend
the National Parks Act (creation of Tuktut Nogait park).
The Deputy Speaker: The purpose of the motion is just to change
one letter in the title.
Does the hon. member have unanimous consent to make this change?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay: Mr. Speaker, I thank you and I also thank
the hon. members.
This amendment to the motion is both a minor and a major one,
since it merely specifies that Bill C-38 makes direct reference
to the park. The amendment only seeks to point out that the
legislation refers to this park. I have no other points to make
regarding this first motion.
As for the second motion, nowhere in the legislation is
reference made to the fact that the creation of this park is the
result of a very long process that began a long time ago.
0930
That process began with an agreement signed in 1984 by the
Canadian government and the Inuvialuit, the Inuvialuit Final
Agreement.
This was followed by the act, which was also passed in 1984.
Negotiations lasted a long time. I believe it took seven years
to sign an agreement on Tuktut Nogait, in 1996. Finally, in
1998, we will now pass the bill to create this park.
It is important to know that the claims were recognized in the
Inuvialuit Final Agreement and in the Western Arctic
(Inuvialuit) Claims Settlement Act.
This is why we would like to see this amendment included in the
bill, whose content is rather limited.
[English]
Mr. Paul Bonwick (Simcoe—Grey, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, with
regard to Motion No. 1, the government would support that motion
with the correction of the spelling error.
Motion No. 2 the government cannot support. It is not because of
the intent. The intent is certainly in the right direction.
However, a legal opinion has suggested that the recognition does
not actually give the Inuvialuit settlement region any further
guarantees or claims. There are already provisions in there with
respect to the Western Arctic land claim, the Inuvialuit final
agreement and the Western Arctic claims and, therefore, it is not
appropriate to have that second reference or change.
Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, it is a pleasure today to speak at the report stage of
Bill C-38.
The Reform Party will support Motion No. 1, which will change
the name of the new national park to Tuktut Nogait.
We feel that Motion No. 2 is unnecessary. It is an amendment
that is covered already under Bill C-38. The Reform Party will
be opposing that motion.
The third motion, which was put forward by the Bloc, changes the
boundaries of the park which will allow exploration for minerals
in an area that is a calving ground for bluenose caribou, and we
will be opposing that motion.
I would be remiss in not using this time as an opportunity to
castigate the minister for her short-sighted views on Banff
National Park. The government has done some good work with Bill
C-38, but it is also missing the boat.
The minister said that one of the greatest goals that exists—
[Translation]
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
Should the first and second motions not be debated?
The Reform Party member has already discussed the third motion
and he is raising an issue which is not even on the agenda, that
is Banff national park. I think we should go back to the agenda,
that is Motions Nos 1 and 2.
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member is right. The debate is on
Motions Nos. 1 and 2 on the Order Paper, which are amendments to
Bill C-38.
I hope the hon. member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca will direct his
comments to these motions and amendments.
[English]
Mr. Keith Martin: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member
for allowing me the opportunity to speak to Motions Nos. 1 and 2.
Bill C-38 will create a new national park. The creation of
national parks is important. The minister has said before that
one of the objectives of this government is to expand the habitat
of our national parks and we agree with that objective. However,
it is important for her to realize that with the expansion of the
parks the individuals within those parks will be unable to raise
the money to develop them because there will be no new funds.
How will we manage to develop parks such as Tuktut Nogait? How
will we manage to buy the land and provide the money for the
conservation officers, the habitat protection, the scientific
research and the equipment that is required to be able to manage
these parks?
0935
The minister should look at some of the good work that is being
done by the World Wildlife Fund. The World Wildlife Fund has
utilized a basic theory in various parts of the world, including
Central America where a number of species, including the golden
lion tamarin, were becoming extinct. They asked themselves “How
do we manage to rescue these animals when we do not have very
much money”? They utilized the basic theory that parks have to
pay for themselves. They utilized the park and were able to
generate revenues in an environmentally sound fashion. With
those revenues they managed to hire park staff, to do research
and to expand the park to the surrounding areas. They also used
the revenues for health care, education and many other services.
By doing that they created a buffer zone around the park. The
people took ownership of the park themselves because they derived
benefits from it and they saw the value of the park in their own
lives. Without any new funds they expanded the habitat of the
park. They managed to raise funds to research the flora an fauna
within the park and saved many useful species that were becoming
extinct. This was accomplished without using any new revenue.
It was extremely clever. We need to learn from this experience.
There is not any new money, but parks have an unusual ability to
raise funds and use the funds for expansion. As Motion No. 1
attests, the development of habitat is exceedingly important in
the ability of flora and fauna to exist. The destruction of
flora and fauna is intimately entwined with the destruction of
habitat. Therefore, the expansion of habitat is exceedingly
important in saving flora and fauna.
How do we manage to expand and develop a park such as the one
mentioned in Motion No. 1, or Banff, without providing new money?
We can do that by generating revenues within the park.
I will use Banff as an example.
Banff has an ability to raise funds. The people within Banff
are asking for 850,000 square feet of land to be developed within
the boundaries of the city. They do not want to expand Banff
into other areas. This is exceedingly important to understand.
They will be able to generate funds from that development.
Within the boundaries of the park that money could be poured back
into Banff National Park for the expansion of the habitat and the
development of conservation initiatives. That would give the
conservation officers the tools they need to do their job.
One of the biggest problems we have is that our conservation
officers do not have the tools. The argument that was put forth
by the minister was that conservation officers are spending too
much time on developmental work. If we want to give conservation
officers the necessary tools, we should use the money generated
from the development of the park. That money could easily be put
back into the park as designated revenues, rather than general
revenues, to be used for something completely different.
Some places in the world charge a 1% or a 2% surcharge on hotel
accommodations and other tourist facilities. That money is
designated for park services.
This would help our threatened flora and fauna. It would enable
the minister to fulfil her objective in expanding habitat and
providing funds to preserve our wilderness areas.
The models around the world which are used by the World Wildlife
Fund and others can be adopted in Canada. However, we have to
have the political will to do that. I hope the minister sees the
opportunity to generate revenues within the parks which could be
used to preserve them.
0940
Mr. Paul Bonwick: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I am looking for a clarification. Are we speaking about
the strip mall in Banff National Park or are we speaking to the
amendments that the hon. member from the Bloc has put forward?
The Deputy Speaker: I thought the hon. member was
discussing national parks in a fairly general way, but he was, in
theory, discussing the amendments that were put forward by the
hon. member for Rimouski—Mitis on Bill C-38, Motions Nos. 1 and
2.
Mr. Keith Martin: Mr. Speaker, for clarification, this
does relate in particular to Motion No. 1. We are talking about
the development of a new park. I hope I was presenting some
constructive solutions that he might take to the minister that
can be applied to the new park.
As I mentioned before, one of the threats to the parks, be it
the park mentioned in Motion No. 1 or any other park, is the
threat to habitat. The threats to Banff National Park and the
threats to Tuktut Nogait are one in the same in many ways.
I would implore the minister, rather than penalizing the parks,
to use the model of the World Wildlife Fund. Those funds could
be generated by a surcharge of 1% or 2% on hotel accommodations
and other tourist facilities and that money could be directed
back into the park for the development of habitat. If we do not
do that we will be in trouble.
We as a country are one of the leading conduits of endangered
and threatened species from around the world. Animal parts from
tigers to rhinos to endangered birds are coming into Canada and
being distributed around the world. We are a major conduit.
Poachers and traffickers of endangered species know this. They
are using our country illegally for this illicit trade that is
destroying populations of threatened species around the world.
Money is required to combat that. This is a way we could
generate the money to give our conservation officers the ability
to preserve flora and fauna not only in our country but around
the world.
Mr. Rick Laliberte (Churchill River, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
these two motions deal with the creation of Tuktut Nogait
National Park and the effect that will have on our caribou
calving grounds.
I would point out that this park is being created specifically
in the settlement region of the Inuvialuit.
I agree with Motion No. 2, that the Western Arctic claim and the
Inuvialuit final agreement should be recognized. The Tuktut
Nogait National Park, also known as the Bluenose National Park,
should include the Nunavut settlement region and the Sahtu Dene
settlement region, which is another 12,000 square kilometres of
park. It should be all encompassing.
This government should not have dragged its heels in the last
few years. It should have been finalizing the agreement of the
total park boundary and not just dealing with one region, the
settlement region of the northern Arctic.
The community has made specific claims. I believe that the next
motion will deal with the requests it has made.
With respect to retaining the integrity of our national parks, I
am sad to see that the Reform Party has taken a pro-development
position within our national parks. The integrity of the ecology
of our national parks should be preserved for future generations.
There should be sustainable development. The species and the
beauty of these parks should be preserved for future generations
to enjoy.
Mr. Mark Muise (West Nova, PC): Mr. Speaker, I would like
to speak to Motion No. 1, which was put forth by my hon.
colleague from Rimouski—Mitis.
On behalf of the Progressive Conservative Party I support this
motion. It puts a bit more meat or teeth into the beginning of
the bill to say exactly what we are creating. Therefore, I
support the motion.
0945
The Deputy Speaker: Is the House ready for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Deputy Speaker: The difficulty the Chair is facing is
that we have a House order that requires that all questions are
deemed put, divisions demanded and deferred, but I understand
there may be agreement to carry one of these motions now.
Is it agreed that we proceed and put the question on Motion No.
1?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Deputy Speaker: The question is on Motion No. 1. Is
it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion No. 1 agreed to)
The Deputy Speaker: The next question is on Motion No. 2.
In accordance with the order adopted yesterday, this motion is
deemed to have been put, a division demanded and deferred until
later this day.
[Translation]
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ) moved:
That Bill C-38, in
Clause 1, be amended
“Thence north along longitude 123 degrees 20 minutes west to
a point at the intersection with latitude 68 degrees 55 minutes
north;
Thence easterly along latitude 68 degrees 55 minutes north
to the intersection with longitude 122 degrees 49 minutes west;
Thence northeasterly to the intersection of longitude 123
degrees west and latitude 69 degrees 13 minutes north;
Thence westerly along latitude 69 degrees 13 minutes north
to the intersection with the surveyed boundary of Paulatuk lands
at longitude 123 degrees 10 minutes west;” and by”
She said: Mr. Speaker, so that it can be noted for posterity,
I would like to take the time to read this motion, which is a
very lengthy one and which would amend the park's boundaries in
line with what the Inuvialuit themselves are requesting. I will
read the motion, which is also somewhat technical, for the
record.
The amendment I am moving would delete lines 26 to 37 on page 2
of Bill C-38.
The amendment reads as follows:
“Thence north along longitude 123 degrees 20 minutes west to
a point at the intersection with latitude 68 degrees 55 minutes
north;
Thence easterly along latitude 68 degrees 55 minutes north
to the intersection with longitude 122 degrees 49 minutes west;
Thence northeasterly to the intersection of longitude 123
degrees west and latitude 69 degrees 13 minutes north;
Thence westerly along latitude 69 degrees 13 minutes north
to the intersection with the surveyed boundary of Paulatuk lands
at longitude 123 degrees 10 minutes west;”
This lengthy amendment gives a very clear idea to inhabitants of
this region of exactly where the park's boundaries lie. The
average person would need a course in advanced geography to know
exactly where the park is located. We have specified the
boundaries.
Why am I moving this amendment? I find myself in a rather
difficult situation. For the first time since being elected to
the House, I really feel that I have not had enough time to do
my homework and I am still a little uncomfortable with the
situation.
0950
First of all, I wish to thank the secretary of state responsible
for parks for agreeing to see me and for providing me with
additional explanations. It helped me understand some of the
government's arguments.
First, there was the Western Arctic claim, which led, in 1984,
as I mentioned earlier, to the Inuvialuit Final Agreement.
This agreement states clearly—I will not read the entire
agreement, rest assured—in paragraph 16(2) that:
16.(2) Canada and the Inuvialuit agree that the economic
measures set out in this section should relate to and support
achievement of the following objectives: full Inuvialuit
participation in the northern Canadian economy; and Inuvialuit
integration into Canadian society through development of an
adequate level of economic self-reliance and a solid economic
base.
This was the agreement the government concluded with the
Inuvialuit in 1984. A lot of water has flowed into the Beaufort
Sea since then and government representatives have met with the
Inuvialuit to try to reach an agreement on park boundaries.
That agreement was concluded in 1996. I must acknowledge that
there were five parties involved in signing with the government.
One of those parties now wants to reopen it and ask that 2.5% of
the land be removed.
One of the government's arguments is that acceding to this
request from the aboriginal people would set a precedent which
could led to a whole series of debates to discuss the borders of
the parks that have not as yet been developed.
Another of its arguments is that the caribou breeding grounds
need protection. However, if that is what the aim is, a still
bigger park should have been created in order to protect all of
the lands occupied by the caribou.
Caribou do not stay in one place. They move around, and so we
should have gone over to the Nunavut side to create a bigger
park so as to protect all the herds. One day, perhaps, that
will be done, but at that time it will have to be seen as a new
park.
This matter of the caribou is an argument raised by the animal
protection people and the associations of ecologists who have
tried to lobby my office. They could not understand why I did
not accept Bill C-38 with my eyes closed. My biggest problem is
that I have met people who were used to seeing caribou in their
area, but had had to have food animals brought in specially.
Caribou had to be brought in from elsewhere because there was no
herd in their area that year, so they would have had trouble
finding game for food.
We cannot pretend that the caribou herd is that strong an
argument for not taking 2.5% away from the park.
Restricting mining exploration is an excellent thing in itself.
However, what I see as important is the arguments of the
Inuvaluit themselves, who see the mining potential of the
territory as a means of creating more lasting employment, more
worthwhile jobs, so they may be more independent economically.
I think it is important that subsection 16(2)(b) of the final
agreement be a concern of the government.
0955
Without prejudging the results of the vote, several parties have
already made their position known on this motion. I hope the
government will make a firm commitment, which will encourage the
community to ensure they are given a chance to develop
economically and open up alternatives to always relying on
welfare.
I seems important to me to give them this economic tool and I
very much regret that this bill had to be considered in such
haste that we did not have an opportunity to really weigh the
pros and cons.
There is no environmental study showing there is any risk in
changing the park's boundaries and none showing it would be a
good thing either. This is very unusual for me since I was
elected to this place, but this dilemma I am facing is making me
feel uneasy.
I think the government moved too quickly for me to have time to
assess the situation properly. The government will probably
proceed with the current boundaries. Obviously, it does not need
the opposition's support, it has a majority. Still, I really
think that the government should commit, in this House, to
promoting the economic development of the Inuvialuit outside the
park.
[English]
Mr. Paul Bonwick (Simcoe—Grey, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
might start by offering some thoughts from some of the people who
were present at the committee. They had the same difficulties as
the member had in wrestling with this most difficult question
with regard to the boundaries and the requested change for the
boundaries.
Basically it boils down to one thing only, a request from a
mining company. It is simply that. I put a question to one of
the witnesses who came forward in trying to find a solution that
might be somewhat flexible and workable. The question I asked was
is there any reason other than pure economics or the money
generated from this mine in the park to move forward on this or
change the boundaries. The answer was no. It was pure and simple
mining.
There are three main points why the government cannot support
this motion. The first one is the integrity of the park. The
integrity of the park or the ecosystem within is extremely
delicate and the boundaries of the park, agreed on some years
ago, need to be maintained not just for our generation but for
future generations. To allow a chunk of land, some hundreds of
thousands of acres, to be severed off for purely economic
reasons, this government can simply not support that.
The second reason is the animals within, the calving groups of
the bluenose caribou. They do shift but, as I mentioned earlier,
the ecosystems are extremely delicate and to take up several
hundred thousand acres of the mating or calving grounds of these
animals is simply not appropriate. These animals play a huge
role in the overall diet of the native people within that area.
My third reason is economics. This process has been going on
for 20 years. It has involved all parties. The agreement was put
in place I believe in 1996 and due to some new ways of testing
for mineral resources in the latter part of 1996-97, a mining
company found deposits within the national park itself.
This is not contingent on the mining process moving forward.
Only 20% of the total find is within the national park. What they
are asking for is to mine that 20%, to compromise that very
delicate ecosystem and to compromise the bluenose caribou.
1000
It was for no other reason than economics.
This government and certainly all parties were having a
difficult job with it because they certainly do not want to
appear as if they are not supportive of the economics and the
native people moving forward and having job opportunities from
mining.
That is why I bring to the House's attention that it is only 20%
and it is important to understand that. Based on the testing
this is not the number one site for exploration. This was the
third site on the priority list for exploration and thereby is
not simply the only place they are pursuing.
The government simply cannot support this for the reasons
mentioned. It is an extremely difficult thing but when one looks
at these three reasons it becomes very simple.
Mr. Mark Muise (West Nova, PC): Mr. Speaker, I begin by
speaking on Motion No. 3 put forth by my hon. colleague from
Rimouski—Mitis. She is a very diligent, hardworking and
conscientious member of our committee and I totally respect the
motion she has put forth.
All members of the committee were faced with a very difficult
situation because we wanted to do what was right. That was the
intent and I sensed that from all members of the committee. It
was difficult to deal with this and I had to do quite a bit of
soul searching and reflection on the representations made to the
committee.
An agreement is an agreement. There had been an agreement signed
by all six parties involved. The agreement stated that if all six
signatories were in agreement the agreement could be
renegotiated. Not all six signatories wanted it reopened. What
happens if, for example, the federal government comes in as one
of the signatories and decides it wants to reopen? Other members
of the agreement might not be in favour of that. An agreement is
an agreement and unfortunately or fortunately we have to stand by
that agreement.
As my hon. colleague mentioned, the group that made
representations to have this reopened stated this was done purely
for economic reasons so that the people of the Inuvialuit region
could derive some financial benefits from that. I see absolutely
nothing wrong with that. There is 80% to 90% of the anomaly of
the potential mineral find that falls outside the boundaries of
the park. This in no way will prevent these people from being
able to earn income from this mineral find. This is another
reason I have trouble in supporting this motion.
There is also the bluenose caribou herd whose main calving
ground falls into this area which some people would like to see
changed or carved out of the park and I therefore have concerns
with this.
If we change the boundaries set forth in this park we are
setting a dangerous precedent. There are other parks that fall
into this category such as Gros Morne Park as well as other parks
and if we change the boundary for this one then we are leaving a
lot of other parks open for renegotiation. I think that sets a
dangerous precedent.
With all due respect to my colleague for Rimouski—Mitis, on
behalf of my party, we cannot support this agreement.
Mr. Rick Laliberte (Churchill River, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I
also share the views of the hon. member regarding hearing the
community's point of view in making this decision.
1005
As the government speaker said, keeping the integrity of the
Tuktut Nogait is of the utmost priority. I also come back to the
point that there are two additional proposed areas for this park,
the Nunavut area and the Sahtu area.
No discussion or reference has been made to these two regions
because the bluenose herd requires the entire region for its
protection. The community of Paulatuk and Inuvialuit settlement
region are compromising their lands to create this park. There
is no assurance that the other lands will be included in future
park expansion with the existing bill. There is no reference to
this. The speaker did not mention this at all.
I would beg that this government make this clear to the people
in Paulatuk who are reconsidering a new economic opportunity by
the anomalies that have been discovered, the distance they are
from the surface. The anomaly inside the park is of prime
mineral extraction.
I also go back to the agreement that says protecting the herd is
most important because for generations the people of the north
have been provided life and sustenance by this herd. I believe
this herd can still sustain life in the northern regions of this
country without compromising the ecology, practices and
traditional way of life of the people of the north.
This government has made a parks agreement with the people of
the Inuvialuit settlement region. The agreement includes job
creation, training for the people and human resource development
and also the environmental and ecological creation of eco-based
tourism that the people of the north could benefit from. This
agreement gives them first opportunity to gain access into that
sort of industry.
There are also agreements in the park legislation for creation
of co-management to include the people in making decision on how
the park is developed, land use decision and development within
it.
There is the question of adjusting the boundaries to gain access
to minerals. Our party has always spoken in favour of creating
and keeping the integrity of the parks. We cautioned this
government during creation of the Cheviot mine neighbouring the
Jasper National Park.
In other regions of the world parks also have a sphere of
influence surrounding them for the integrity of the species and
the ecology. If this were taken into account in this country the
development of Banff, the development of Jasper and also the
mineral extraction neighbouring some of these parks would be
scrutinized in a different light. I think that should be done.
A short term gain of mineral extraction and the impact it leaves
in most cases must be taken very seriously.
For the time being I challenge the government to include in the
Tuktut Nogait national park all the proposed boundaries and
clarify to the people of the north that the entire park and its
proposed boundaries will be included.
It would be like if we live in an urban centre and the local
government decides to put an easement between people's properties
it is not fair that the local government make an easement on my
property first before it makes a total easement on all the
properties affected.
1010
In dealing with the Inuvialuit settlement region let us be fair
with them. Let us be up front with them that they are not going
to be the only ones comprising their lands to create a national
park for this country. We must be up front with them and tell
them that the Nunavut settlement region and the Sahtu settlement
region will also be contributing to this huge national park which
has a better chance of keeping the integrity of the ecology and
also the integrity of the bluenose caribou herd.
Hon. Andy Mitchell (Secretary of State (Parks), Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to take a moment as the Secretary of State
for Parks to thank the committee members who on this piece of
legislation have done a lot of work, have examined it. We see
some of the results of their analysis and soul searching as we
hear the debate taking place here at report stage. I would be
remiss if I did not take an opportunity to thank the members for
their work.
Some of the members have said in debate that part of the overall
agreement revolves around helping the people of Paulatuk and the
community in terms of pursuing economic development
opportunities. There are parts of the agreement that indicate
that there is the intention of parks to work with the community
on economic development opportunities presented by the park. We
will work with the community and with the Government of the
Northwest Territories to move forward on these things. That is
one of our intentions as a department and as the federal
government and we intend to pursue this.
My colleague has talked about the government's position on this
amendment. I will not reiterate his position but I did want to
take the opportunity to thank the committee and to make the point
about moving forward on economic development.
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: The question on Motion No. 3 is deemed to
have been put and a recorded division deemed demanded and
deferred until 1 p.m. today.
* * *
[English]
JUDGES ACT
Hon. Marcel Massé (for the Minister of Justice and Attorney
General of Canada, Lib.) moved that Bill C-37, an act to
amend the Judges Act and to make consequential amendments to
other acts, be read the third time and passed.
Ms. Eleni Bakopanos (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
am pleased today to speak on Bill C-37, an act to amend the
Judges Act.
I begin by putting this bill in its proper context. The
judiciary is one of the fundamental institutions of our
democracy. Since 1982 Canadian judges have been asked to assume
increasingly demanding constitutional functions, determining
issues of fundamental importance to all Canadians.
This government recognizes that in doing their job judges in
their decisions are not always popular. It seems to me that this
is inevitable given that we as legislators have given them the
sometimes unenviable task of determining some of the most
difficult and divisive legal, social and economic issues of our
time. It is for this very reason that we do not want popular
judges. Indeed it is and has always been of primary importance
to all Canadians that judges are independent and free to make
those difficult and sometimes unpopular decisions.
It is the principle of judicial independence that provides the
foundation for a strong and courageous judiciary as well as being
a cornerstone of our democratic society, a principle clearly
reflected in and protected by sections 96 through 100 of the
Canadian Constitution.
1015
[Translation]
In 1981, in recognition of the importance of judicial
independence and the unique constitutional role of the
judiciary, Parliament provided for an independent commission to
examine the adequacy of judges' salaries and benefits.
In September 1997, the supreme court underscored the importance
and necessity of the role played by such independent commissions
in ensuring public confidence in the independence and
impartiality of the Canadian judiciary. The supreme court gave
the example of the federal commission.
In its recent decision, the supreme court stressed the
importance and necessity of the role played by such independent
commissions in ensuring public confidence in the independence
and impartiality of the Canadian judiciary.
A key part of that decision is to require public justification
by government for a decision not to implement, or to only
partially implement, the recommendation of such a commission.
[English]
The most recent triennial commission headed by David Scott heard
from a range of organizations and individuals including all the
provincial and territorial ministers of justice and attorneys
general before putting forward a thoughtful and comprehensive set
of recommendations. This government continues to support the
principles that led parliament to institute the judicial salary
commission process 17 years ago. In light of those principles
and of the enhanced constitutional role of independent salary
commissions following the supreme court decision, we have given
serious consideration to all the recommendations of the Scott
commission.
It was not unexpected that the issue which has evoked the
greatest interest since the response was released and Bill C-37
was introduced is the proposed judicial salary increases. The
Scott commission recommended an appropriately phased upward
adjustment of 8.3% on the expiration of the salary freeze on
April 1, 1997. We have accepted this recommendation and Bill
C-37 will implement the Scott recommendations by providing a
phased-in increase to judicial salaries of 4.1% per year over two
years effective April 1, 1997.
The proposal is consistent with the government's view that it
would be unreasonable for the judiciary not to share in the
necessary economic restraint that was exercised from 1992 until
very recently by all Canadians paid by the federal government. I
want to express my strong agreement with a statement made by
former Chief Justice Dickson of the Supreme Court of Canada in a
seminal decision on the issue of financial security for judges in
R. v Beauregard.
The chief justice observed “Canadian judges are Canadian
citizens and must bear their fair share of the financial burden
of administering the country”. This view is echoed in the recent
decision of the Supreme Court of Canada where the Chief Justice
of Canada observed “Nothing would be more damaging to the
reputation of the judiciary and the administration of justice
than a perception that judges were not shouldering their share of
the burden in difficult economic times”.
Canadian judges are entitled to receive fair compensation that
reflects both the importance of their role and the personal
demands of their office. In deciding what was reasonable, the
Scott commission in my view correctly recognized that a whole
range of factors must be considered in establishing an
appropriate level of remuneration, including the need to ensure
levels of compensation that attract and keep the most qualified
candidates for judicial office. That is what we are seeking, the
most qualified candidates.
Bill C-37 would also implement the Scott commission
recommendation for certain pension related amendments to the
Judges Act, including the rule of 80 which will permit retirement
when the sum of a judge's age and years of service equals at
least 80 and the judge has served on the bench for a minimum of
15 years. In our view the proposed rule of 80 responds in an
important way to the changing demographic profile of the
judiciary. More and more judges are being appointed at a younger
age. I would like to add that many of these younger judges are
women. The government has made many attempts to assure that there
be equality on the bench for the two sexes.
1020
The current provision, although based on the rule of 80,
requires a minimum age of 65. A judge who retires before 65 has
no right to a pension at all. Therefore, a judge appointed at
the age of 50 can retire with a pension at 65 with 15 years of
service. However, a judge who is appointed at 40 must serve 25
years to receive any pension at all. This is a situation that is
increasingly considered unfair.
This situation is even more unacceptable when we consider that
it has a particular impact on women judges who constitute the
majority of those appointed at an early age. The rule of 80
would allow older, longer serving judges to retire when they feel
they no longer wish to continue in the role. Permitting this
will be good for them and for the court itself as an institution.
The Scott commission has proposed a different retirement option
for the judges of the Supreme Court of Canada. It recommended
eligibility for retirement with a full pension after serving a
minimum of 10 years on the bench. The government agrees with the
commission that the immense workload and heavy responsibility
inherent in membership on the supreme court justifies the
proposed retirement provision. However, the government proposes
to limit it to those judges who have reached the age of 65 years.
The bill also makes a couple of other changes to judges pensions
in the interest of fairness. It will allow common-law spouses to
receive surviving spouses' annuities. It will give a judge who
marries or commences a common-law relationship after retirement
the option of receiving an actuarially reduced pension which
continues until the judge and the spouse have both died. These
are both common features of other pension plans.
A very important part of Bill C-37 is improvements to the
judicial compensation commission process designed to reinforce
the independence, objectivity and effectiveness of the process as
a means of further enhancing judicial independence. The Supreme
Court of Canada in its decision of last September set out
guidelines for such process improvements.
In order to be independent, commission members must enjoy
security of tenure by being appointed for a fixed term and the
judiciary must nominate a member. To be objective, a commission
must use objective criteria in coming to its recommendations.
And to be effective, governments must deal with the commission's
recommendations with due diligence and reasonable dispatch.
[Translation]
The supreme court also expressly stated that it was up to the
executive and the legislator to define the institutional models,
and that the administrations should be free to choose the
procedures and provisions best suited to their own reality.
[English]
In our proposed design, the length of time between commissions
would be extended from the current three to a four year period.
The new commission would conduct an inquiry similar to that
conducted by previous commissions, including public hearings and
inviting submissions from all those interested in judicial
compensation, including all Canadians.
While this will be a permanent commission in the sense of having
a mandate for a fixed period of time, the members of the
commission would be part time only. As a general rule, members
will only be active during the first nine months of each four
year period until the report is delivered. Furthermore, the
members will only receive per diem fees for the time they are
actually performing commission business.
The commission would have nine months to complete its inquiry
and submit a report to the Minister of Justice. To provide
flexibility, the period to report could be extended on agreement
of the minister and the judiciary.
The exception to the general nine month period of activity would
be when the minister decides to submit a matter to the commission
for its inquiry as permitted under these proposals. This
provision would allow for changes to judicial compensation to be
made where necessary between the fixed four year timeframe. This
is necessary in light of the new constitutional requirement
established by the supreme court that future changes to judicial
compensation cannot be implemented without prior consideration by
a judicial compensation commission.
This power to refer matters might also occasionally be used to
have more detailed and informed consideration of particularly
complex policy issues.
1025
The independence of the commission would be enhanced by our
proposal that it would have one member nominated by the judiciary
and one nominated by the Minister of Justice. The
representatives of each side would in turn nominate a third
member who would be the chair. Members would be appointed by the
governor in council for a fixed four year term, on good
behaviour, removable for cause. Terms would be renewed once on
renomination.
The bill also includes a proposal that the Minister of Justice
be required to respond to a report of a salary commission. The
role of parliament in reviewing the commission recommendations
has also been preserved in the continuation of the current
requirement that the report of the Judicial Compensation and
Benefits Commission be tabled before both houses of parliament.
I am delighted that another key element of Bill C-37 appears to
have secured widespread support across party lines. It provides
for the largest ever expansion to date of unified family courts
in Canada. This broad support is natural and welcomed since
unified family courts are widely recognized to be responsive to
widespread concerns that the family law system is too slow,
confusing and expensive and intensifies and prolongs the degree
of family conflict.
Delay, conflict and confusion arise in large part because of
jurisdictional overlap and the traditional emphasis on courts and
litigation to resolve family issues. Unified family courts reduce
these problems by enabling a single judge to hear all family
matters under both federal and provincial law. Unified family
courts also provide access to an array of services which promote
durable, mutually agreeable solutions to family law disputes and
improve the long term outcomes for children and their families.
I must say that being a member of the mixed committee of both
houses on custody and access, a lot of the witnesses that came
before the committee praised this type of move on the part of the
government. They encouraged the federal government to work with
the provincial governments in ensuring that this type of system
is available from coast to coast to coast.
I am therefore very pleased that the level of funding provided
in the 1997 budget will permit the appointment of 24 additional
judges to unified family courts. The cost will be $4.4 million
ongoing to support the salary and benefits of federally appointed
judges. Three other positions are currently available under the
Judges Act for a total of 27 new unified family court judges.
Unified family courts demonstrate an effective
federal-provincial partnership to meet the needs of children and
parents when family disputes occur, reflecting the high degree of
interdependence in this area of law and social policy. The
federal government provides and pays for specialized family law
judges with complete jurisdiction. This allows for one-stop
shopping, less delay in costs and better understanding and
outcomes. The provinces use the resulting savings to provide and
pay for an array of social services for families experiencing
disputes which will result in reduced levels of conflict,
mutually agreeable outcomes and better futures for families and
children.
[Translation]
In the long term, this bill will benefit children, because the
risks of conflict will be lower and these conflicts will be
settled more quickly. Children's needs will be better cared for,
the results will last longer and, in terms of protection, child
support, custody and access, the approach will be based on
intensive and integrated services.
Once again, this reflects exactly the views expressed by those
who appeared before the joint committee of the House and the
Senate to the members representing all political parties, and to
the senators.
[English]
In conclusion, these amendments will serve to strengthen what is
already one of the best judicial systems in the world by
enhancing the independence of our courts and improving access to
justice. The improvements to the judicial compensation process
will ensure continued public confidence in the independence of
our judiciary.
Increased judicial resources for unified family courts combined
with provincial commitment of support services will improve the
way our courts respond to families and children in crisis.
That certainly is one of the priorities of the government and I
am sure of all members of the House.
1030
I hope we can look forward to the support of all members in
moving these important amendments to the Judges Act quickly
through parliament to the benefit of all Canadians.
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I extend
my appreciation for the clear and forthright manner in which the
parliamentary secretary to the justice minister has put forward
the program of government in the bill and the rationale that she
has presented. We can examine that and we can critique that, and
I appreciate that.
I rise today to debate Bill C-37 for the last time. This is the
third occasion I have had the opportunity to state Reform's
opposition to the bill which grants judges an unprecedented
salary increase within the public service of 8.3% over the next
two years.
For those who are listening or who may be reading Hansard
either in paper form or on the Internet, I want to point out that
8.3% over the next two years does not tell the whole story. We
have to ask 8.3% of what. It is of the base salary judges are
making at this time. The average salary of federal court judges
is approximately $140,000 a year.
The question is whether this is the appropriate time to be
taking more wealth out of the hands of the people to give our
public servants, in this case our federal court judges, a raise
at a time when families are struggling to make ends meet and to
keep body and soul together.
As I said in earlier debates on this subject I think this is
wrong. It is the wrong time. I often wonder about the Scott
commission which made this recommendation to parliament and that
representation to the justice committee when witnesses were
called. Mr. Scott himself appeared. I wonder if members of that
commission went to the people of the country, to the families
that money will come from to grant federal court judges that kind
of a raise. I ask as well if members of the government have
considered this not only in view of Bill C-37 but also in view of
the report table that will give MPs a 2% raise, which amounts to
about a 10% increase over the next four years. Is this the time
to be doing this?
I say that it is not. We should be asking the people who will
pay more in taxes whether or not this is fair and whether or not
judges and members of parliament at our salary levels can suffer
a bit longer, perhaps another two or three years. Perhaps we can
see our way clear to giving the people of the country an economic
benefit either through enhancing the economic climate of the
country or reducing taxes to them and allowing them to take home
more pay.
Would it not be wonderful if we did that first? The Scott
commission and the government are now asking the people of the
country to dig deeper into their pockets to give someone making
the pay of an MP or the pay of a judge, $140,000 on the average
for a federal judge, more pay so that they can take home a
greater benefit. There is something wrong with this, and I just
want to give some statistics.
Before I go any further I express my gratitude to the House and
to the government for accepting my amendment to Bill C-37 that
was supported and passed earlier this week. As a result every
four years the standing committee on justice will have the
opportunity to review the report of a commission on judges'
salaries and benefits.
1035
This task will not be left solely to the Minister of Justice. We
will be able to call witnesses from the public to see whether any
increase recommended by the commission to be established by the
bill is fair, to see what are the economic conditions of families
and people of Canada at the time, and to see whether there is a
proper balance between the need for more take home pay by judges
and the plight of Canadian families. We must remember that it is
reported that one child in every five is living in poverty.
Did the Scott commission consider that? Did the commissioners
realize that by asking for this kind of pay raise for federal
court judges they would be taking money from the families of
those children who are reported to be living in poverty? They
are living in poverty while our judges are taking home a minimum
of $140,000 a year on average.
There is something wrong. I understand the need to attract the
best in the legal community to the bench. Surely there are top
legal minds out there who are prepared to serve their country and
its people and to show the leadership we so desperately need in
this area.
A poll in July 1997 showed that 52% of Canadians had little
faith in their courts, in their judges. Why is that? The people
are saying to us, to the courts and to other Canadians that they
are dissatisfied with the leadership being shown in some of the
decisions being made by judges, which indicates very clearly that
some decisions are not being made in the best interest of the
majority of the people.
Are they pleased to be taxed more? Are they pleased that the
power of the state is being used to take more money from people
including families whose children are reported to be living in
poverty in order that judges might have more take home pay? This
is the wrong time.
I agreed with my Bloc colleague on the committee when he pointed
out that it was not the right time. Should we not wait until we
see the heads of families taking home more income than they are
now before we begin to give ourselves and judges a raise? There
is no question in my mind. If the government would take the
proper economic course we would not be far from that.
The government has balanced the budget mainly on the backs of
taxpayers. We are now in a position where we might be able to
offer tax relief and debt reduction and to give our children and
grandchildren hope that one day they will be able to take more of
their dollar home. Fifty per cent of every dollar the average
Canadian earns is taken by taxes in one form or another, and now
the Scott commission and the government are asking that they take
less home. Why? It is be cause we must have a pay raise of 10%
over the next four years and the judges must have a pay raise of
very close to 10% over two years, compounded as it is.
Let me give some statistics. According to an Ottawa
Citizen article on June 10, family incomes are still
dropping. As a result Canadians need to stretch the family
budget more to keep a roof over their heads. The reason is that
while housing costs eased during the first half of this decade
family incomes declined even more. That nudged the proportion of
Canadians who spend at least 30% of their income on shelter and
thus potentially face problems covering their housing costs to
one in four households or almost 2.8 million households. These
are the people the government and the Scott commission are asking
to pay a little more.
Why? First, the judges want more money. We have to make sure
they take home more pay even though the people of Canada will not
be able to take home to their families more pay to provide for
their children and their needs in the areas of clothing, food and
shelter.
We spend more on taxes in Canada than we do on those three items.
We are the highest taxed country in the G-7. Why? Is it not
because of decisions such as this? Is it not because of
legislation such as this? Through the force of law we are to
take more money from these people. I do not think that is right.
1040
The findings I referred to were released by Statistics Canada
and were derived from the 1996 census. An additional
Citizen article on the same date also revealed that more
and more two parent families had two parents in the workforce in
1996 while at the same time the number of children left at home
was increasing.
Statistics Canada reported that the overall lower incomes among
Canadians in 1996 is the reason both parents were being forced
into the labour market. Is that not wonderful, while judges and
MPs will be taking home more money? How can we go back to our
constituents and argue that? How can we do that? How can we say
to those folks that we know they are struggling?
My constituency is facing a drought. I received a call from a
rancher out in the Byemoor area of my constituency who said they
were finished if it did not rain. They will have to sell off
their herds. Their cattle are being moved out to the grasslands
now because there is no grass. We are saying to them that is
their problem but we need more money from them. Why? It is
because we want to have more take home pay and we want the judges
to have the same. How can we do that? I cannot do that.
We stand as the opposition to cry out against it. Although
there are good things in the bill to which I will come that we
could support, we cannot support a bill that will do this to the
people of Canada. We just cannot do it. How can we look in the
mirror and say this is fair? How can we do that?
As elected representatives of the people we are required to
justify this to the source of our authority, the people who
elected us, the people we represent. We represent everyone in
our constituency, even those who voted against us. We have a
duty to stand on guard to protect the economic viability of their
farming and ranching operations. Some of them take home meagre
pays.
My wife and I raised four children. I have young twin sons who
are in the labour force now. The tax return of one son showed
that he made $14,000 working at just above minimum wage. He had
to pay with taxes and deductions almost $2,000. The bill is
saying that Spencer Ramsay will be required to pay more. Why? It
is because judges want to take home more pay and members of
parliament want to take home more pay. He will have to provide
that for us through the force of law and if he does not we will
take him to court. We have ways of dealing with him.
There is something wrong with this story. There is something
wrong when we do this to our own people and then we cry—
An hon. member: We can sell Stornoway.
Mr. Jack Ramsay: We could deal with that and we could
deal with a lot of other things.
We are talking specifically about a bill that is designed on the
surface to look good. Judges do a tough job and are required to
interpret the law. They have studied long and hard and were
found worthy to be appointed to august positions of
responsibility. However, when we compare their lifestyle with
the lifestyle of one out of every five children reported to be
living in poverty surely we can tough it out a bit longer.
1045
Surely the judges can go another year or so. Hopefully the
economy will provide an upturn for them so that the wealth we tax
from them will not be in as great a proportion as it is today.
Surely we can do that. As members of parliament, we should be
able to do that as well.
Yes, our judges need decent courts. They need decent facilities
to function in, as we do. The people do not begrudge that but we
are not talking about that in this case. We are talking about our
take home pay. Really we are saying taxpayers are going to have
to take home less pay because we want to take home more. How can
we say that?
We confuse the issue. We mix it up with legal jargon and we put
it in a bill. We have a commission look at it. It makes its
recommendations. Then we do not go beneath that to look at what
it has been looking at.
We just say this is the recommendation by the commission. Its
members have looked at it. We have assigned them and we have
appointed them to do the job. That is it. We are going to take
their recommendations and go forward. The bottom line always is
where does the wealth come from.
Governments do not create wealth. They only take it from people
who do. We must do it in a balanced and fair way. I do not
think most of our judges are selfish people, not at all.
How many of them are saying a raise would be nice, but let's
consider everything, consider the people who are going to have to
pay for their raise, how are they doing? I am sure they would say
that.
We are not involving them directly. It would be hard, I
understand, perhaps to do that. Nevertheless, when we look at a
$17,000 pay raise over two years for some of our federal court
judges, when my children and the children who are now entering
the labour market take home $14,000 after labouring for a year at
just above minimum wage and our judges are going to take $17,000
more home in the next two years and we as MPs over the next four
are going to take home another $5,000, I can suffer a little
longer. I think the judges can as well.
I want to point out what we can support in this bill, the
appointment of additional family court judges to the bench.
Although this speaks of certainly a social if not a moral
condition existing within our country where we need more judges
in family court to deal with the increased workload, the backlog
of cases coming forward, we can support that.
We do not think individuals who require the services of a court
and the wisdom of a judge to decide the legalities of their
precarious situations or any situation that might demand the
scrutiny of a court should have to wait and wait. In the criminal
court in B.C. I understand there are over 40,000 cases
backlogged.
I cannot support this bill because of the financial burden it is
going to place on our taxpayers. I think at times when we have
to provide greater services in needed areas, we can do that.
If we have to ask the people to sacrifice more, it has to be in
those areas and not to provide judges and MPs with more take home
pay. We cannot do that. If we can, then I am missing something
in this whole debate.
If we can say to my son and all our sons and daughters who are
out there entering the labour force and making minimum or just
above minimum wage that we are going to take more from them to
give someone making $140,000 a year more take home pay, I cannot
argue that.
I cannot debate that with them because I will be on their side
saying it is not fair because it is not fair and it is not right.
1050
The greatest threat to the economic stability of the family and
the individual is the unlimited power of the state to take, to
tax away their wealth which they create. That is the greatest
threat. Since I have been in this House since 1993 we have seen
the continued erosion of the take home pay of our families.
Since 1993 the average family's disposable income has dropped by
some $2,500. That is probably the minimum. We just go blindly
on because the minister has brought in a bill. We are going to
pass this and suffer the consequences. Who is going to suffer?
Not the judges and not the MPs. We are not going to suffer but
our sons and daughters will, our children will and our
grandchildren will.
What are we getting to? Are we going to take more and more out
of the economy and away from the families? Are we going to see
the number of children living in poverty increase because of
this? This bill is just a symptom where people are saying they
want more and we are going to have to give more. We are saying
that to the taxpayer.
I cannot support this bill, although there are parts of it that
I can support. Not unlike the report tabled in the House on this
benefit package, there are some things there that I can support,
others I cannot. I cannot support the bill.
In this area I want to touch on something that is extremely
important. It is the motivation for this bill. This bill was
motivated as a result of the Supreme Court of Canada's decision
on the Alberta case and the P.E.I. case where those governments
were attempting to roll back the salaries of judges because of
the economic conditions existing in those provinces. They were
trying to get their spending under control and so the judges
fought that and took it to court.
The Supreme Court of Canada has simply decided that all
governments in this land, including the federal government, must
set up a commission which will at the federal level at least
every four years examine the need for increased benefits to the
judges.
The most alarming part of that decision is that it has been
inferred that any unwarranted interference by the government,
unwarranted in the eyes of the courts, interference in the pay
and benefits of the judges, can be considered an interference
with the judicial independence of the court. I say that is a
grave decision because of what it means.
It means that if in dire circumstances we want to reduce as a
government the tax burden on the people of this country and roll
back the salaries of the civil servants, including MPs and
judges, the courts alone can say we cannot do that because that
constitutes in their judgment an interference in the judicial
independence of the court.
I support the dissenting opinion of Judge La Forest that the
Parliament of Canada and the governments of the provinces do have
that right and that it does not constitute an interference in the
judicial independence of the courts.
The spinoff effect of that is if this thinking and rationale are
to be accepted by this parliament, what it means directly or
indirectly is the courts impinging on the power of parliament to
tax.
1055
What they are saying is that we cannot reduce taxes to lower
pay. We must maintain the taxation rate or increase it. That is
an encroachment on the supremacy of this parliament in the area
of taxation.
Although I would like to see the people of Canada have the power
to encroach on parliament's power to tax, if the courts are going
to do that then I think we are moving to the edge of a slippery
slope. As this bill goes forward and as this parliament accepts
that decision and the consequences of that decision we will see
where this eventually leads this country.
It is so important that we maintain the division of powers
between the executive and the judiciary. Do we not see the
disintegration of the division of powers between our judiciary
and the executive or the Parliament of Canada in some of these
decisions, particularly this one? Where is it going to stop? How
do we stop it?
How do we intervene? This bill does not intervene. This
parliament is accepting and embracing it. I hope the upper
chamber, the chamber of sombre second thought, will click in and
take a look at this because it is obvious we cannot stop it here.
We have not even looked at that aspect of it.
We had two hearings before our standing committee with two sets
of witnesses where we could not even broach that question because
it was outside the realm of this bill. It motivated the bill. It
directly related to this bill because this is what spawned the
bill. That decision created the need for this bill.
Is the Government of Canada prepared to hold back a minute to
question whether it is prepared to accept the consequences of
this decision? Are we prepared to accept an encroachment on our
right of taxation? Are we prepared to accept that the Supreme
Court of Canada appears to have read into the charter of rights
of freedoms this whole question of judicial independence being
interfered with by the Governments of Canada and the provinces?
If they decide they cannot give a raise or they have to roll back
pay, if this in a subjective way is not agreed to by the courts
of this land, that is what we are looking at.
The gravity of that is yet to come and yet we are seeing that.
If we see the collapse of the division of powers in this country
what are the consequences of that?
Where did our parliamentary system evolve from? It evolved from
the divine rule of kings. When we saw the split and division
that occurred between those who create the law and those who
interpret and enforce the law, that created the basis for a
democracy. When we see the collapse of that then what are we
going back to? Are we going back to the divine rule of kings
where we are going to exclude the division of powers and the
groups that represent the competing responsibilities in this
country? Are we going to do that?
I say that this bill is heading us in that direction. In fact,
I see the judicial activism in this bill loud and clear. The
warnings are there. As the official opposition we are putting
that warning on the record and have expressed that concern in
committee.
1100
I hope that other members who will be speaking on this bill will
express their opinion on that. If I am wrong, then show me where
I am wrong and I will accept that. Show me what I have not
considered.
As a policeman I always followed the truth: the evidence, the
facts. I based my decisions upon them. At the end of a day I
might come to a conclusion based upon all the facts gathered, but
the next day might bring additional facts which would expand my
conclusion or change my opinion.
I invite members who might have an interest in this particular
area of the bill to address it, to add their experience,
knowledge and wisdom to this particular question.
Are we seeing in this country an erosion of the division of
powers between our executive and our judiciary? If we are, what
can we do about it?
I have great concerns about the bill. Earlier I spoke about it
being the wrong time to give judges and others, including
ourselves, a pay raise, when families are struggling to make ends
meet. I recognize the need for us to suffer a little longer with
them until the economy turns around and we can grant them greater
take home pay through cuts in taxes and so on.
We are supposed to be working for them. If we deserve a pay
raise, why do we not ask them? If we have done our job well and
they are taking more pay home and doing well, and if there are no
longer families and children living in poverty, at that point we
could ask, if we are doing a good job and working very long
hours, do we deserve a 2% raise? Do the judges deserve a 4.5% or
4.3% raise over each of the next two years? I think questioning
that would be fair. Right now it is not fair.
This bill is heading in the wrong direction. The timing is
wrong. I hope I hear from some of my colleagues in the House. I
respect their opinions and always have in this area. I hope this
area might be addressed. Are we witnessing a disintegration of
the division of powers between the judiciary and the state? If
we are, is it a good thing or a bad thing? Or am I seeing
something in this bill that does not exist? I will leave it at
that and wait with anticipation to hear from some of my learned
colleagues who will be speaking to this bill.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Mr. Speaker, this
morning we are considering Bill C-37, an act to amend the Judges
Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.
I think
the first question we should ask is why, today, we are at this
point. We are at third reading of a bill concerning judges'
salaries, Bill C-37. I think I should first provide a bit of
background first and take a look at the constitutional context
of the whole matter.
On September 18, 1997, the Supreme Court of Canada in a
reference on the pay of provincial court judges in Prince Edward
Island, determined the constitutional requirements the
legislator must abide by in establishing judges' pay.
The court stipulated that the independence of the court system,
as protected by the Constitution, involved the establishment of
an independent and objective commission with sway over decisions
on judges' salaries.
The provincial and federal attorneys general asked the supreme
court to stay the effects of the decision to enable them to meet
the constitutional requirements.
1105
The supreme court acted on this request in its decision. On
February 10, the court decided to stay the effect of its
decision from September 18, 1997 until September 18, 1998.
The justices of the supreme court sent us, the lawmakers, the
following message “Change the law to comply with our recent
decision, and we will give you time to do it, that is, one year,
until September 18, 1998”.
Since time flies—here we are at the end of the session—the
House must consider this legislation and its amendments and act
on them.
The government amendments we have before us, however, are not
necessarily what I would have liked to see. As it stands, the
supreme court ruling calls for the creation of an independent
commission, nothing more.
This is clear from reading the
ruling. It calls for the creation of an independent commission,
period. The government party is not right in saying that it is
merely giving effect to a supreme court ruling with its salary
increases. Naturally, I will come back to the government's
salary increases for judges during my speech.
The supreme court ruling is not to be interpreted as a
requirement to increase judges' salaries. To respect the
constitutional imperatives imposed by the court in the
reference, parliament is not obliged to go along with the Scott
commission recommendation to increase judges' salaries.
At the very outside, parliament should undertake to set up an
independent commission that can influence, but not dictate,
judges' salaries. Here again, it is very important to look at
the supreme court ruling, to understand it and to compare it to
the bill before us.
The Minister of Justice was not obliged—and I choose my words
deliberately—to include an 8.2% salary increase over two years
for federal judges in order to meet the constitutional
requirements set down by the supreme court. Clause 5 of the
bill we are now studying, Bill C-37, which contains the salary
increase provision, threatens the whole bill, in my view. This
is unfortunate because the bill contains some very good
elements, such as the creation of permanent judicial
compensation and benefits commissions.
The Bloc Quebecois considers that the government is far
exceeding the conditions set by the supreme court in proposing a
salary increase of 4.1% per year for two years. The government
used a false claim of unconstitutionality to justify a salary
increase that was not required by the supreme court in the
reference on judges' salaries.
While only one clause in the bill being considered poses a
problem, we cannot support the bill. The Bloc Quebecois is
entitled to demand rigour from the government in the drafting of
its bills and the avoidance of unjustified discrepancies.
It is immediately clear from the bill that the government has
gone much farther than the justices of the supreme court asked
it to.
If we add up all the increases proposed in the Scott report and
those authorized by government for the statutory increases
provided under the Judges Act, passage of the bill will give the
judges an increase of 12.4%.
1110
As it appears that the government has been preparing this one
for a long long time, the bill is likely to be passed intact.
While clause 5 of the bill refers to a salary increase of 4.1% a
year for two years, the federal judges will be entitled to an
increase of over 12% retroactive to April 1, 1997, if the bill
is passed by the House of Commons.
If we add indexing of 2.1% on April 1, 1997 and 2.08% on April
1, 1998 to the 8.02% provided by the bill, the total is an
increase of exactly 12.38% that will be given the judges. An
increase of 12.8% just calculating the increases provided under
the law and Bill C-37.
It is simple math. Just add 4.1 twice, plus 2.08, plus 2.1%. We
must add up all these increases to understand that,
retroactively, this makes a total increase of 12.38%.
Any accountant and reasonable person who looks into the matter
will tell you that the combined effect of these individual
increases is an overall increase of more than 12.38% because
increases are all one over another. Factor in retroactivity and
we have been told by accountants that it is actually closer to
13%. That does not make sense.
As a the matter of fact, under Bill C-37, if passed, a superior
court judge will earn approximately $175,800 a year. The chief
justice of the Supreme Court of Canada will see his salary
increase from an attractive $208,200 to a lovely $225,700. I do
not think these can be considered middle class incomes.
Yet, the government is granting judges a salary increase of
approximately 13%.
Let me digress for a moment. At present, it is clear that the
government across the way is not even able to come to an
agreement with his own employees. Our pay clerks at the House of
Commons did not get even a small salary increase, only crumbs
off the table of the rich. They have to fight with their
employer, and the pay office. They have to fight with the
government, the Board of Internal Economy, just to get what they
are owed, to maintain salaries similar to those paid elsewhere
in government. They cannot get a small increase and adequate
recognition for the work they do.
The government over there will be giving about $25,000 in pay
raises to senior justices, and $20,000 to the rest.
These judges perform very useful work, I am sure, but I also
believe that certain government employees do extremely necessary
work, including the pay clerks, who are currently involved in a
dispute with the government.
Returning to the judges' raises in particular in Bill C-37, the
Bloc Quebecois cannot honestly understand how the government can
commit to a pay raise of 12.4% for federal judges, when we know
that the attack on the deficit, and the subsequent budget
surplus, are being achieved on the backs of the least well off.
The incomes of those most in need are being cut, and those with
high incomes are being given increases.
The government is not capable of competing with the lucrative
private job market.
That is one of the arguments that has been raised. We are told
that, if we want to have competent judges, we have to pay them
properly. I agree, but I think that, at some point, there has
to be a limit.
1115
David Scott, the head of the commission that looked into judges'
benefits in 1995, told the justice committee that the government
ought to raise the pay of federal judges if it hoped to attract
the best candidates from the private sector.
At this time, the lists of candidates for judgeships are full to
overflowing. The Judicial Council will attest to the fact that
there is no shortage of applicants. Lots of people are queuing
up to get judicial appointments.
If, however, the government has set itself the objective of
going after the top-flight lawyers in the major law firms, the
4.1% increase yearly for two years will not make any difference
to that.
When a lawyer emeritus decides to make the leap to a judgeship,
he or she does so for the professional prestige, not just for
the money. Despite the salary freeze of recent years, the
federal courts have excellent magistrates at this time. Let me
take this opportunity to congratulate and thank them for the
excellent work they do in all the courts in Canada, particularly
the provincial courts in Quebec, the superior court and the
court of appeal. I congratulate them on their excellent work.
They do not do that excellent work because of the pay. They do
excellent work because they have the qualifications and
qualities required, they have good judgment, they are
professionals, and I congratulate them.
Again, it is not because we are giving them a 4.1% raise over
two years that they will do an even greater job. Judges will
continue to work the way they have been since they were
appointed to the bench.
Are we to understand that the government decided to opt for a
strategy similar to that used by major professional sports
teams, which are prepared to raise the stakes in order to
attract the best athletes? If so, the government should find a
new approach, because it is not in a financial position to
compete with private law firms. We all know that some brilliant
lawyers in some big private firms make a lot more than $200,000
per year.
However, this does not necessarily mean that a lawyer who earns
$150,000 in a private firm is not as good as one who makes
$250,000 or $300,000. This is not how lawyers are rated.
But the government seems to think so. I do not agree.
I know judges who used to work for legal aid, a government
service. I know some who used to be crown attorneys and who are
now excellent judges. These people did not earn $250,000 or
$300,000 per year, yet they are very good judges because they
believe in their profession and in the justice system. They are
good, but they were not paid like brilliant lawyers in big law
firms around the country, including in Montreal and in other
major centres. Yet, they do a great job.
I heard all sorts of things about the review of Bill C-37. At the
risk of offending some people, I say that anyone who works for
his or her country—for Quebec or for Canada—must be considered
a public servant. The salary of that person is paid by Canadians
through their taxes.
Senior public servants, secretaries of state, ministers, the
Prime Minister and others are all paid with taxpayers' money,
which means they are at the service of the public and the state.
Judges—and this may upset some people—are also at the service
of the state, since it is the people who pay the judges'
salaries through their taxes.
We must keep that in mind when we give a raise or when we pay a
salary to someone who works for the state.
1120
Of all the people working for the government, in Canada,
specifically the professionals, including the Prime Minister,
the ministers and all the members of this House, the judges are
the best paid.
In considering the salary of judges, we have to think what an
individual might earn in a liberal profession of similar scope.
The Bloc Quebecois agrees with all those who say that judges
perform very important functions and should be held in esteem in
our society because of their position.
The Bloc Quebecois is not starting a war against the judges. On
the contrary, it is simply raising the choice the government has
made, which, in our opinion, is not the right one.
So the judges are the best paid in the professional category in
Canada.
In an article on May 13, the Toronto Star informed us that our
judges earn an average of $126,000 a year. That is more than
medical specialists and lawyers earn. Medical specialists earn
about $123,000 and lawyers in private practice, an average of
$81,000.
Mr. Speaker, I have a question for you. Should judges earn more
than medical specialists? Which is more important in society?
I think the question is an easy one to answer or that, at least,
it raises other questions. Is this the way we should look at
it? Maybe not. Maybe we should not be comparing the salaries
of judges and doctors.
The point I want to make, however, is that a medical specialist
is every bit as important to society as a good judge. Why give
an astronomical increase to judges and not to medical
specialists? At some point, we have to stop and think. Is the
increase too high? I think the government did not give it
enough thought.
Another thing that bothers me a little bit about this bill is
that they are trying to conceal the fact that it is retroactive.
It is retroactive to April 1997. Why should there be
retroactive compensation for the salary freeze of recent years?
That is the reason we are being given. It is not retroactive,
but it goes back to April 1, 1997 because judges' salaries have
been frozen in recent years. Either it is retroactive, or it is
not. If the government wants to compensate them for a freeze,
they should be compensated for what they lost, and not more. In
response to the minister, therefore, indexing would have been
enough.
But the government is giving more.
The 1995 Scott commission's report on judges' salaries and
benefits proposed an 8% increase as compensation for the ground
they lost in recent years. The Minister of Justice probably
based the 8.2% increase mentioned in clause 8 of Bill C-37 on
this figure.
As even certain Liberals on the Standing Committee on Justice
and Human Rights have said during hearings, this catch-up policy
is unacceptable. When salaries are frozen, it is because the
public purse cannot keep pace with the consumer price index.
A
salary freeze does not necessarily go hand-in-hand with a promise
of an increase when the situation has improved.
We are barely out of a budgetary crisis—a look at Canada's
deficit makes it plain we are not yet out of the woods—and one of
the ways this was done was by making the most disadvantaged
members of society foot the bill, and the government is
preparing to spend money retroactively by increasing judges'
salaries and indexing them as well.
Public service salaries also dropped during the period when
indexing was frozen. Members also had their salaries frozen for
five years.
1125
When the freeze was lifted, if one could call it that, the 1% or
2% indexation was restored, but there was never any question of
raising salaries to compensate for the money lost because of the
freeze. Why should we give judges special treatment? Whey
should they be treated differently than other government
professionals or salaried workers?
We also know that the least well off are the ones who have had
to bear the brunt of the fight against the deficit, as I have
already pointed out.
Now. the government is making those same people pay for the
judges' salary increases.
Those in greatest need get cuts, and those with what I consider
respectable salaries are given an increase that works out to
around 13%, when all the raises are combined.
Time is flying, but I would like to quickly remind people of the
cuts to social transfers. The government over there cut
billions in transfer payments. The eligibility criteria for
employment insurance, formerly unemployment insurance, have been
tightened up. In fact, judging by the effect on the public, it
ought to be called poverty insurance. The government will be
taking billions from the pockets of workers.
Now that the Minister of Finance has a bit of money to play
around with, he wants to give it to the most well-off in salary
increases.
I think that both an individual and a collective contribution
are required here. The Minister of Finance is digging into the
employment insurance fund to solve his budget problems, and
everybody knows it. I think the Bloc Quebecois has done
excellent work on this. It has alerted the public to this
extremely important matter.
I have already referred to transfer payments. It must be kept
in mind that the amount the federal government transfers for
health has been cut back terribly. This week we heard the
minister boasting that the cut was only $42 billion, rather than
$48 billion. Forty-some billion is a really big amount.
I am not saying he was right or wrong. I am simply saying that
he made these cuts on the backs of the most disadvantaged and
vulnerable in our society, and on the backs of the sick; so he
should not turn around and give the money he cut to the
wealthiest.
The public remembers that the same people always pay. We have
to conclude, in the case of Bill C-37, that the rich are not
treated like the poor and disadvantaged.
The government wants us to agree and approve a bill awarding an
increase like this. The government is accusing us of failing to
honour the Supreme Court decision. That is not true. We want
to comply with it.
We are simply saying that the government is going well beyond
the Supreme Court decision, because there was no mention of what
sort of increase we should give the judges in that decision. The
Supreme Court said “Set up an independent commission”. We could
simply have limited the scope of the bill to establishing the
commission sought by the justices of the Supreme Court of
Canada.
In closing, judges too, in my opinion, should make budget
sacrifices. Ask the man in the street. I am sure you will find
that they agree with the Bloc Quebecois that judges, ministers,
Prime Ministers and the like should contribute equally to the
effort to eliminate the budget deficit.
Those opposite often criticize what goes on in the Quebec
National Assembly.
1130
Mr. Bouchard and his government could probably teach the members
across the way something about making budgetary sacrifices,
because that is what they have done in Quebec City, the premier
included. Judges also did their part. The government reduced
its payroll by 6%.
Why would it be any different here? If the federal government
is taking in too much in taxes and no longer knows what to do
with all the money, it could perhaps turn it over to the
provinces so that they could use it as they saw fit, for their
own objectives, to reduce their own deficits and ultimately
lower taxes.
Since the federal government is providing increasingly fewer
services to the public, if it no longer knows what to do with
the money, it should get out of a lot of areas and leave the
taxes for provincial governments, including the Government of
Quebec.
I believe that all members of our society must work collectively
to put our fiscal house back in order, and federal judges are no
exception. An increase in the salary of federal judges during a
period of cutbacks would, in our view, further undermine the
public's confidence in the judiciary.
In closing, I wish to cite Mr. Justice Lamer himself, whose
opinion can be found in the reference on judges' remuneration.
It will help the members opposite in their reflections.
In the supreme court ruling, Judge Lamer said the following:
I want to emphasize that the guarantee of a minimum acceptable
level of judicial remuneration is not a device to shield the
courts from the effects of deficit reduction. Nothing would be
more damaging to the reputation of the judiciary and the
administration of justice than a perception that judges were not
shouldering their share of the burden in difficult economic
times.
It could not be stated more clearly. Even the supreme court
judges, in their ruling, told the Parliament of Canada that it
should not give them salary increases because it would be
prejudicial to the public's perception of them.
I sincerely believe that an increase that is close to 18% and
that is retroactive to April 1, 1997 is ill-advised, and that it
will not achieve the specific goal of increasing the public's
confidence in the judiciary.
[English]
Mr. Peter Mancini (Sydney—Victoria, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
it gives me pleasure to rise to speak to Bill C-37, an act
respecting changes to the Judges Act, changes to salaries with
respect to eligibility for annuity, et cetera.
I will begin my comments by indicating, as has been done by some
other speakers, particularly my colleague in the Bloc Quebecois,
that there are some good things in this bill. I have indicated
that in previous addresses to this House.
Clearly the creation of the unified family court in provinces in
this country is an important step forward.
Like the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice, I
am honoured to serve on the Special Joint Committee on Child
Custody and Access. I would say that one of the difficulties in
sitting on that committee is that it sits at the same time as the
Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.
I appreciate the frustrations that both the parliamentary
secretary and myself have had in trying to make both meetings.
However, at the meetings we have attended, it has been clear that
many individuals who have come before that committee have had
experiences in provincial courts dealing with the issues of
custody and access, and perhaps matrimonial property if the court
has the jurisdiction to do that. In some provinces it may and in
some provinces it may not. Then they find themselves before a
superior court dealing with the federal legislation of divorce
and a whole range of matters that have already been dealt with
which have to be re-adjudicated.
1135
The movement toward a unified family court is a good move. Were
it not for other aspects of this bill, my party would support it.
With regard to the special joint committee on child custody and
access, I mentioned the difficulty that the parliamentary
secretary and I had in attending those meetings. That has been
compounded by the fact that, like her, I have constituency work
to do and voters to be answerable to. They are the most
important reason we are here today and they are the most
important priority for myself and for other elected members of
this House. Unlike certain colleagues in the Senate who have a
lot more time because they do not have constituents to answer to
and they are only on one committee, we have had to divide our
time between the many responsibilities that we have as elected
representatives.
This bill moves in the direction of providing annuities and
benefits to the surviving spouses of the judiciary. It provides
a mechanism for the division of property for the judiciary.
An amendment was suggested by a member of my party to change the
definition of spouse in the act. I will read the definition:
“A surviving spouse, in relation to a judge, includes a person
of the opposite sex who has cohabitated with the judge—”. In
recent court rulings of the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia and in
other human rights cases there is some question as to whether or
not the definition of spouse, which is an older definition in the
act, will hold up to judicial scrutiny at some point down the
road. It seems that we could have gone further and taken out the
heterosexual nature of the definition of spouse in the act and
saved it from litigation at some point down the road. However,
that amendment was not deemed important enough to be brought
forward.
Those are some of the good aspects of this legislation that are
worthy of consideration. At the same time there are important
areas that could have been addressed by the Minister of Justice
in bringing forward amendments to the Judges Act that have not
been addressed.
First, I will deal with the formation of the committee that
reviews judicial salaries. I have said before and I say again
that I think that committee could have been expanded. I
appreciate that the Minister of Justice used a model from
arbitration, where a member is nominated by the judiciary, a
member is nominated by the government and a third party is
nominated by both individuals. However, we could have expanded
that committee. We could have included a member of the Canadian
Bar Association. No one knows better how much work the judiciary
does than the lawyers who appear before the courts on a regular
basis.
Some of the judiciary in this country are exemplary. Some go
beyond the call of duty. They work late nights. They accept
responsibilities. When cases fall through, they go looking for
other cases to deal with their workload. At the same time, we
know there are members of the judiciary who are not as
hardworking as others. As parliament continues to play an
increasing role in certain areas, some members of the judiciary
have simply retreated from making decisions.
For example, consider the results of Bill C-41 which brought
into existence the maintenance tables that the judiciary now uses
upon divorce. There was a time when the responsibility of the
judge upon divorce was to inquire as to what the means and the
needs of the parties were, whether the children were provided
for, what special circumstances families had to take into
account. Today many of the judiciary simply ensure that the
guidelines are imposed. They say they have no responsibility to
make further inquiries. They have abandoned that work.
1140
I will again refer to the Divorce Act where in many cases the
plan is put forward by the children. We heard on the special
joint committee on child custody and access repeated calls for
parenting plans to be put forward by parents of children upon
divorce.
In many cases it is left up to the lawyers to negotiate that and
to ensure that there is a checklist for the judiciary. The
judiciary simply checks things off in the way a clerk might. They
say “Well, you haven't filled in all the blanks, so take the
divorce papers back and when the lawyers do all the work bring it
back to me and I'll sign on the dotted line”.
When we hear that type of thing the bill falls short of what
might have been done.
First of all, the committee could have been expanded, as I have
indicated, to include members of the bar association and to
perhaps include a member from the Canadian Union of Public
Employees. The Canadian Union of Public Employees represents
public servants in this country who are paid by the taxpayer in
the same way that the judiciary is. Why not have someone sitting
on that committee on judicial salaries who understands what other
public employees across this country are dealing with in terms of
their own expenses and costs of living?
It has been mentioned by both my colleague in the Bloc and the
member for Crowfoot that the people who work in the court system,
the people who work in the protonotary's office, the people who
work in the deeds office and the people who sit at the feet of
the judges transcribing what goes on in the courtroom have
suffered as a result of the government's emphasis on deficit
reduction, have suffered roll-backs and freezes at both the
provincial and federal levels. It would have been very
interesting to have a representative of the Canadian Union of
Public Employees sit on the judicial salaries commission.
The failure to expand the committee is a flaw in the bill.
I also think, and this has been the crux of many comments from
other individuals, that the size of the increase in pay at this
point in time for the judiciary is one that we have to question.
The estimates and the figures we have been given range from 8.4%,
I believe from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of
Justice, to well over 13% from the hon. member in the Bloc
Quebecois. Either figure at this point in time we have to
question, given the nature of what people in this country have
gone through.
Further, given the fact of what we have seen in this country
under the current economic policies, the gap between the wealthy
and the poor continues to increase. That ought to give us pause
for concern as we move to increasing the take home income of some
of the wealthiest people in the country by either 8% or 13%.
It is not that I do not think the judiciary ought to be well
paid. It is not that I do not think the judiciary has a
difficult and important job to do. However, at a time when those
who work in the court system and those who appear before the
courts are suffering, it is unacceptable that we give such a high
increase.
I see my hon. colleague from Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough in
the House today. He and I walked a picket line in Halifax. I
must say that it was not a situation he was most comfortable with
or used to. I had to give him a few lessons on where to turn and
how to hold his sign, but he passed with flying colours. It was a
sight to be seen. I think our picture appeared on the front page
of the daily news. I am sure that Conservatives across that
province will take great comfort in the fact that the
Conservatives are now walking the picket lines.
However, on a more serious note, we walked that line with the
crown attorneys for the province of Nova Scotia. We walked that
line with the crown prosecutors in the province of Nova Scotia
who were forced onto the street because they had been struggling
with pay reductions and increased workloads and simply could not
handle it any more.
1145
The legal aid lawyers appear before the judiciary on the most
serious matters every day, the most serious criminal matters, the
most serious family issues that come before the courts on the
questions of custody and access. They defend people who are
charged with the most heinous crimes. The crown prosecutors
prosecute those crimes to ensure justice is done. They have not
had a pay increase. In fact they have had services and incomes
slashed in the last four or five years.
I refer to section 41 in the Judges Act. I find this most
interesting especially at this point in time. There is a section
which allows and authorizes the court to pay for conference
allowances, reasonable travel and other expenses actually
incurred by the judiciary in travelling to conferences. As I
have said I do not oppose that. I think it is important that
judges attend conferences and that they understand and have an
opportunity to explore the law.
However in my own province the travel budget for legal aid
lawyers, and I am sure it is the same for any crown prosecutor,
to travel to a conference to further educate themselves has been
cut to the point where they cannot go. It is impossible. They
have been told “We may pay for the registration fee but you pay
for the travel allowance. You pay for your accommodations. You
clear your schedule and find a lawyer who will cover for you. If
you can accomplish all of that, you can go”.
Understanding the importance of continuing legal education, we
have made provisions for the judiciary to have their reasonable
expenses met. So what are we doing? We are creating a situation
where the judiciary sitting on the bench will be even more
critical of the lawyers who appear before them because the
lawyers cannot afford to go to the same conferences to be as up
to date on the law as they should be. How does that advance the
interests of justice?
If the money is available for the judiciary, then we have to
make it available for other programs. If it is not available for
the other programs, then it is the wrong time to advance for the
judiciary a pay increase of the magnitude which we have before
us.
There are a few other important points to make. My colleague
the member for Crowfoot from the Reform Party has raised some
interesting issues on the question of the supreme court case
which resulted in the creation of this commission and judicial
independence. He and I have discussed the issue before.
The member says that we see an increasing role for the judiciary
at the expense of the supremacy of parliament. I would point out
that the supremacy of parliament requires checks and balances and
always has. The idea that the British parliamentary system is
one that has always met the needs of its population is one that
is open to historical scrutiny.
It seems to me that on the very issue of universal suffrage, the
Parliament of England refused to grant universal suffrage time
after time after time up until the turn of the century. It was
the charterists in England who I think first brought before the
House of Commons in the late 1860s or early 1870s a petition of
1.6 million names of workers who asked for the right to vote and
were turned down. They came back a second time with another
petition and were turned down. They came back a third time with
a petition containing I think five million names and were turned
down. Had it not been for the labour movement and the
organization of workers in England and in other countries in
Europe, the sovereign House of Commons in England would not have
granted universal suffrage.
Today the right to vote and the freedom from discrimination can
be challenged in the supreme court of this country and other
courts at the provincial level.
1150
Had England had that charter of rights and an activist court,
then the check on the supremacy of parliament may have provided
for universal suffrage much earlier. I say that not to say
parliament should not be supreme, but until we have real and
radical changes to the way in which we make laws in this country,
we have to have a check on this very House. The check has to be
more than the opposition of the government.
The way the laws are made in this country is clearly available
for anyone who wants to read a political science book. The
cabinet and 20 people in the front rows of this House determine
what the law will be. Let us look at Bill C-37. They determine
what the changes are to be in the legislation. It is presented
to the House. There is an airing of different views. It is
presented to committee and committee at times can make
recommendations and amendments. Realistically at the end of the
day the majority of the government members because of party
discipline will vote in favour of the legislation. The
opposition members may vote against it, but the legislation will
pass.
We ask ourselves where is the check on the supreme power of
parliament? The check is not in the Senate. I found it
interesting to hear the hon. member for Crowfoot mention the
house of sober second thought where he hopes this bill will be
examined. I find it interesting to hear the Reform Party speak
in favour of the Senate that way. It will not be realistically
challenged because the government also has a majority in the
Senate. It will not be checked by the governor general. The
only check on the power of this House and on the legislation put
forward by the government is the judiciary. The judiciary does
play an important role.
Unfortunately, because the bill has not gone as far as I would
like it to, we cannot support it. I do not want that to be seen
as casting a bad light on the judiciary. Given the economic
times, given the fact that the bill did not go as far as we like,
and I have not touched on the method of judicial appointment
which could have been included in this bill and is an important
factor, but given those situations and given the fact that my
time is running out, I say to the House that we will not be
supporting the legislation because it is a missed opportunity.
Mrs. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the member says he cannot support this
particular bill. I find that quite disappointing given the fact
that it goes very far in ensuring that judicial independence and
impartiality. They are critical to public confidence in the
judiciary and by extension to our justice system and are enhanced
by this legislation.
The whole issue of judges pensions is very important. Anyone who
has looked into the whole issue of judicial impartiality and
independence would know that their financial independence is a
very crucial issue to being able to act independently, being able
to act with impartiality and not having to worry about financial
considerations.
I also find it rather disappointing that the member does not
support this bill because of the whole issue of the adjustments
of the judges salaries. Those salaries need to be brought in
line with today's world. This legislation goes a significant way
in doing that.
Notwithstanding the fact that he has debated this issue for
quite a few minutes now, I do not understand why he cannot
support this bill given the fact that it does go a long way to
ensuring public confidence in our justice system by ensuring
financial independence of the judges.
I am not going to talk about the issue of the unified family
courts which is very important as well. We know that there are
barriers to women in the legal profession to gain access to our
judiciary precisely because of what I would call our archaic
rules and conditions for judges pensions. I do not know if the
government would call it that, but I would call it that being
someone who is part of the legal profession.
Personally I would have a very difficult time if anyone had ever
considered me to be qualified to be a judge to accept an
appointment because of those archaic rules simply on the issue of
the pensions and not even talking about the issue of the
salaries.
1155
I would like to hear a little bit more from the member on that.
I am trying to understand your opposition to this legislation.
The NDP is a party that is known or prides itself, justly or
unjustly, on being for social justice, on ensuring that all
segments of our society receive adequate justice in all spheres,
especially social justice, as does this government. I would like
to hear a little bit more from you on that.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Just before the hon.
member for Sydney—Victoria responds, may I remind all hon.
members to please address each other through the Chair so as to
not allow the Chair to feel left out.
Mrs. Marlene Jennings: Mr. Speaker, I apologize most
sincerely and humbly. I would never want you to feel left out.
You are an integral part of this entire process and a necessary
part of this process. I apologize most humbly.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Actually it is the
Chair that is the integral part.
Mr. Rick Borotsik: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. That is simply one member's opinion. I would like that
on the record.
Mr. Peter Mancini: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member
for her questions. I think she raises some good points. I want to
address as many of them as I can in the time allotted.
The first one I would talk about is salaries and the issue of
pensions for women and the lack of women judiciary in the
country. This is an important issue. As a practising lawyer
married to my spouse who is a practising lawyer at Nova Scotia
legal aid, I say to the member that if she thinks that the rules
for pensions are arcane for the judiciary, she should see what
some of pension plans for the legal aid lawyers or crown
prosecutors look like. In some cases they are a substantial bar
to appointing women to the bench.
We need to go beyond that and this ties into the next point the
member made and that is public confidence in the judiciary. I
believe the member would concur with me that the reality is that
part of the reason we do not have as many women on the bench or
that we do not have as representative a bench as we should have
is that the appointment of the judiciary in this country has for
a long time been a reward for political favouritism. That is the
reality and we may as well say it.
I could go through the annals and point to the members of the
judiciary who have been appointed not because they were the best
lawyers or because they had the best minds, but because they
collected enough money for the right political party at the time.
That is a historical reality we have to correct.
When we talk about public opinion and public confidence in the
courts it is not enough until we amend the way the judiciary is
appointed. I agree with the Minister of Justice in that I am not
in favour of an elected judiciary in this country but the kind of
method of appointment that there is south of the border.
When I say there was a missed opportunity, at the same time I
think we could have looked at ways of improving the methodology
of the appointment of the judiciary to take into account the
needs of women lawyers and minorities and to ensure that the
bench was better represented and that the public had confidence
in the method of appointment.
The problem with political appointees is that even if the
appointee has been involved in politics and would be a good
judge, and there are some of those, they wear the disrespect of
those who everybody in small communities particularly know climb
their way to the judiciary because of political favouritism.
The hon. member has asked for clarification on the reason I do
not support the bill. First of all on just those narrow issues,
it does not go far enough to help public confidence in the
judiciary.
It does not go far enough.
1200
She said that the NDP has always been a party that is proud to
ensure that people are properly compensated. That is why I
belong to it. At a time when the government has told us all and
sent a message across the country that we cannot afford some of
the essential things that we as Canadians have always believed
were important, to turn around now and say that we have money to
increase judiciary salaries by 8% or 13% and not provide money
for legal aid and not provide more money for the crown
prosecutors is why I cannot support it.
I said at the beginning I do not mind the judges making money so
long as every other service is increased proportionately or more
so where the need is greatest. That has always been our strength
as a party in terms of social justice, in terms of making sure
that the resources are fairly distributed. Because they are not
we cannot support the bill.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House and speak today on
this bill as well. It is always an honour to follow the hon.
member for Sydney—Victoria who pointed out that he and I did
partake in a protest of sorts in Nova Scotia some time ago.
Although I am not prepared to proclaim complete solidarity with
the hon. member on political grounds, I guess it is not only
politics but professions and personal contacts that sometimes
make strange bedfellows as well.
Turning my attention now to the legislation before the House, it
is a piece of legislation that we have seen has invoked a great
deal of passion and a great deal of provocative commentary within
the House of Commons and to some extent a great deal of righteous
indignation on the part of some. Much of that I think arises
from the issue of the salary increase itself and the fact that
judges, as a result of this legislation, will be receiving a
significant increase in remuneration.
I think it is important as well to focus on the role of judges
and the important task they are charged to perform. Although Bill
C-37 does address a lot of other issues such as the commission of
salaries and benefits and unified family courts, I think we have
to put the salary question in perspective.
We have had an opportunity throughout today's debate and earlier
to talk about the important question of the separation of powers
in our society. I indicated in earlier remarks and reiterate
that judicial independence is definitely the cornerstone of our
democracy. There is no question that we in parliament may not
always agree with what the courts decide, and there are numerous
examples I can think of. The most recent perhaps is the Feeney
decision. Parliament has since come to grips with that issue.
The broader issue is that there is another body out there, a
check on what takes place in parliament.
This body is armed with the charter. The charter has been the
subject of much debate in recent years. Parliament once elected,
and the important difference being the election of the members of
parliament as opposed to the appointment of judges, can at times
be heavy handed. Majority governments in particular have a
tendency after several years in power or successive mandates to
perhaps embark on heavy handed measures which the judiciary may
be called on to check. I think that is a very important balance
that has to be struck. It cannot be stated often enough or with
enough vehemence the importance of having our judiciary
independent of the elected body.
On September 18, 1997 the Supreme Court of Canada released a key
decision that related to the constitutional requirements of
financial security of judges. That decision reinforced the
principle of judicial independence and it outlined broad
constitutional requirements for the determination of judicial
compensation.
The creation of an independent, objective and effective
commission is what makes recommendations on aspects of judicial
compensation, salaries and benefits possible. This arm's length
body, independent of the judiciary, independent of parliament, I
think is an important step that this piece of legislation does
bring about.
1205
To be independent, commission members must be appointed for a
fixed term and the judiciary must nominate one of the members,
and to be objective the commission must also use objective
criteria to come to its decisions. To be effective, the
government must deal with the recommendations of the commission
with due diligence and reasonable dispatch.
Bill C-37 creates a body that will in effect set up a commission
for any future changes with respect to remuneration. I will be
the first to admit that timing in life seems to be everything and
the timing of this bill is something that does lead to questions
from the opposition, questions from the governing side as well,
as to why this piece of legislation is coming through when it is
coming through.
The perception out there among the Canadian population may be is
this a priority, is this something that should be happening now.
Without casting aspersion on the bill, I do cast aspersion on the
decision making and the priority setting of this government in
the timing of this piece of legislation.
The proposed amendments brought about by Bill C-37 that will,
following the supreme court decision, improve the independence
and objectivity and effectiveness of salary and benefit
remuneration process must be viewed in a positive light. Bill
C-37 will also implement the Scott commission's recommendations.
The Scott commission recommended that judges' salaries be
gradually increased from 8.3% from the date which the salary
freeze was lifted, April 1, 1997, and bring about a gradual
process rather than a lump sum process.
In the supreme court decision in Beauregard: “Canadian judges
are Canadian citizens and must bear their fair share of financial
burden of administering the country”. Although judges' salaries
will be increased as a result of this piece of legislation, they
will obviously be in a tax bracket which will see a significant
portion of that salary returned to government, as all Canadians
in their various tax brackets.
I certainly share the view echoed in the recent supreme court
decision that judicial compensation is a necessary thing when it
comes to placing the importance and the significance of the role
judges play. I quote from that decision again: “Nothing could
be more damaging for the reputation of the judiciary and the
administration of justice than a perception that judges are not
shouldering their share of the burden in difficult economic
times”.
The timing is always questionable. That is perhaps what has led
to some of the animosity about when this salary increase is going
to be effective. We cannot blind ourselves to the fact that the
important role of judges leads to the necessity for making this
an attractive job financially.
It has been discussed at the justice committee and it has been
raised here in debate that if we are to have individuals willing
to give up the practice of law and become appointed and take on
that task, there has to be compensation that is at least
attractive enough to, in some cases I suggest, result in a pay
cut.
I know that what we are talking about here is a salary in excess
of $100,000, which is certainly a great deal of money when one
considers the average salary of Canadians.
In to Toronto as opposed to New Glasgow, Nova Scotia there is a
difference in the salary range. But the suggestion is if we are
to have the best and the brightest leave the practice of law and
take on the role of a judge, we have to be able to compensate
them in a fair way that is at least going to be on par or perhaps
in the ballpark of what they were making in private practice.
In deciding what was reasonable, the Scott commission recognized
that a complex range of factors had to be considered in
establishing an appropriate level of remuneration and that
included the need to ensure that levels of compensation did
attract the most qualified candidates.
1210
During the hearings in the standing committee I asked on
numerous occasions of different witnesses appearing on this issue
if salary was an important factor for lawyers in the decision to
accept or refuse a judicial appointment. Each and every time,
sometimes reluctantly, the answer was yes. It was an important
decision.
We can no longer let qualified and excellent private
practitioners refuse judicial appointments due to salary alone.
If we need to improve the quality of our tribunals and judicial
appointments, and certainly this is something we want and strive
to do, I believe we cannot simply ignore that salary and
compensation is an important factor.
Salaries may very well be one factor but certainly the quality
and the process in making those selections is equally important.
Although it is somewhat off the topic of this bill, certainly
what we want to do is ensure that we do have a process in place
that enables input from the various levels of society that are
going to be most affected by judicial appointments.
I keep in mind some of the comments made by previous speakers
about judges. I am troubled with the perception the Reform Party
would leave with the Canadian public on the issue. I am not here
to say that all judges are infallible and that decisions are not
sometimes bizarre and difficult to understand and stretch the
bounds of comprehension. That is one of the human qualities
every judge has. We in this House have bad days too. It happens
on occasion that a judge makes a terrible decision and that the
following day with some circumspect and perhaps a different
outlook he or she may have made a completely different decision.
There is no need to engage in what I saw taking place during the
debate on this topic that judges themselves are being personally
attacked, much in the same way that we see senators personally
attacked. It would seem that judges, when they do not
religiously follow the Reform Party line, can be denounced as
elites. They are denounced as undemocratic and they are
described, quoting the words of the hon. member from Wild Rose on
March 30, 1998, as greedy little parasitic fraternities that
exist across the land.
In my opinion that goes a long way to further undermine public
confidence in the judiciary. It does not add anything to the
debate.
A basic respect has to exist and this type of personal scathing
attack should not occur here or anywhere for that matter. It
happens far too often. I think it bears repeating that this is
not going to further this debate in any way. There are always
those in every profession of whom we will be less than proud but
judges, like all professions, are for the majority a number of
hardworking professional and committed people who are in the
pursuit of justice. That is what is important. They do a very
necessary job and at times a very stressful and morally taxing
job. We have to try to avoid that type of talk when we can.
There are a number of provincial governments across Canada that
have already reacted to the supreme court's decision of
increasing judges' salaries. In most cases retroactive
adjustments would also have to be made to remedy previous salary
cuts and freezes. For the reasons I have outlined, the
Conservative Party does not oppose these amendments to the Judges
Act to increase the salaries by 4.1% for two years, effective
April 1. It is proportionate and we believe it is not a bad
thing.
The old expression that you get what you pay for does apply in
this instance. The bill also provides for new rules in
establishing an independent commission for the responsibility of
reviewing salaries and benefits every four years for judges.
These rules do not ensure in any certain way that the system will
be perfect.
However I suggest it goes in the right direction in ensuring that
it will be equitable and reflect reality in Canadian society. A
four year review seems like a reasonable period of time. The
Conservative Party of Canada has concerns that we must always
emphasize there will be changes. New proposals may arise. New
circumstances may come to light. A four year review process is a
necessary step.
1215
As parliamentarians we must also ensure that the commission will
be held accountable to parliament and that the process is as
transparent as possible. While three members on the commission
is a good idea, there will be an appointment by the Minister of
Justice, another from the judiciary and the third one by the
first two appointees.
One suggestion would be that perhaps the third person should be
selected from the bar society. I believe it was the hon. member
for Sydney—Victoria that made the suggestion. It is a good
suggestion and one that we would support. It would approve
accountability and transparency. Another suggestion might be
that the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights have a
hand in making that appointment.
The bill provides for a commission that would report every four
years. The report would be presented by the Minister of Justice
who in return would bring it to the House and table it here. This
improves accountability. It improves input and the process
itself is elevated as a result. It is certainly a way of doing
what the government often talks about and that is having more
transparency. I question whether that is happening to the extent
that it could.
Another suggestion would be that the commission could be held
accountable directly to parliament. Like the human rights
commission which reports directly to the House of Commons and not
through the minister, this commission could report directly to
the House and therefore be held more accountable. It would also
allow the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights to
review the report in a more significant way.
In summary, with respect to this element of the bill and these
amendments pertaining to salary, we see them as positive
improvements that perhaps could have been brought about in a
different way. The timing could have been different, but I
believe it is the beginning of a recognition that in the justice
system there is a need for more resources.
I do not disagree with the suggestion about other segments of
the justice system like legal aid and crown prosecutors who are
presently toiling in Nova Scotia under less than ideal
conditions. There is a need to improve the situation of
frontline police officers. There is a need to have more
children's aid societies and more programs aimed at preventing
crime. However I believe this is a start. Perhaps it is the top
end when it comes to judges but it is a start.
There is also a very important segment of Bill C-37 which deals
with the unified family court. Bill C-37 supports the creation
and expansion of the unified family court across the country. The
Conservative Party supports the model of a unified family court
in part because it allows one judge to resolve all family court
issues: issues relating to separation, divorce and custody
access. This reduces complexity and delay when its comes to the
court. This is a problem that many encounter in the court system
today.
It would create a system which would ensure that matters are
presided over by experts in the area, judges who have an
expertise particularly in the area of family matters which can
become very complex and emotionally driven. I see it as a
positive step.
Unified family court offers services which include information
on family law, educational programs on the effects of separation
on children, home studies, referrals to counselling and other
community services, information on alternatives to litigation,
and access to services that include mediation and supervised
visits to homes.
These are areas that we should be focusing on. The bill is a
step toward improving our system in family courts. Because these
services would be available under one roof, public access would
be improved as a result.
1220
From the perspective of the children involved, better long term
plans can be expected from these changes; lower levels of
conflict; quicker resolutions; greater focus on the impact on
children; and increased durability of outcomes with emphasis on
integrated services, an intense approach to child protection,
child support, custody and access. All these things are viewed
positively by the Conservative Party.
Bill C-37 will also appoint 27 new federal judges for the
unified family court in four provinces, eight in the province of
Nova Scotia. We welcome these additions. These amendments will
permit the governments and the provinces to improve legal
services available to families.
Regarding the pension itself, Bill C-37 provides for changes to
the criteria of the supreme court that allow retirement with a
full pension. Judges will now have to be 65 or older and have to
accomplish at least 10 years of service on the bench prior to
their retirement. The Conservative Party does not have
difficulty with that change.
In conclusion, we are encouraged generally that these amendments
have been brought about in good faith although we question the
timing. We believe there could be other improvements as they
pertain to the accountability and transparency of the salary and
benefits commission. As a whole we support the bill. We are
ready to support it because we believe it is a good thing. The
bill will bring about some of the changes that we have had the
opportunity to discuss. We are thankful for the opportunity to
do so.
Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I thank the member for his excellent remarks.
When a bill comes before parliament that deals with the
remuneration of public figures it serves the very useful purpose
of giving us the opportunity to examine the roles of those public
figures. It is very much in the public interest that we do so.
The member alluded to some of the earlier debates on the bill
and mentioned that the Reform Party had made some disparaging
remarks about the behaviour of judges and their quality.
I draw to his attention that this attitude of questioning the
discretion of judges is not something that is exclusive to the
Reform Party. It is a very worrisome trend that exists generally
in society today, on this side of the House and in the justice
department.
The issue is how far we go in giving discretion to judges. As
the member mentioned, the law and the interpretation of the law
and the issues it deals with are very human issues. Traditionally
in common law we have relied on the judges to use their good
judgment, their experience of life and their compassion to
interpret the law.
Unfortunately there seems to have been a very alarming trend
over recent years to withdraw some of the discretionary powers of
judges. A perfect example is the whole concept of minimum
sentences.
This is question and comment period. I was hoping to offer the
member some comments which I think are very important and
directly arise from his remarks. A number of private members'
bills were before the House in the previous sitting that dealt
with minimum sentences for drunk driving. We had quite a sharp
debate here and I spoke on that occasion.
My concern is that while we want to protect victims rights and
that kind of thing we must allow the judges compassion to deal
with cases in which perhaps even no sentence at all or no jail
term at all is appropriate because sometimes there are rare
instances like that.
For the member's benefit I refer to another bill that passed
through the House in the last parliament, Bill C-46, the access
to records legislation. It is now before the supreme court on a
challenge. I do not want to refer to the charter challenge that
Bill C-46 is now encountering.
What was relevant in that bill was that it limited the
discretion of judges to request the records of therapists in
sexual assault cases. Judges already had the power to hear from
the accused, to look at the records and to determine whether the
records were relevant.
1225
Bill C-46 seriously curtailed the judge's discretion to seek
records by citing certain conditions the judge would have to take
into account before he could request those records from
therapists on behalf of the accused.
This type of restriction on a judge's ability to interpret the
law and to act equally on the side of the person making the
accusation and more important the defendant causes some concern.
We must never hobble a judge's discretion to use his discretion.
I feel there is an alarming trend particularly in victims rights
cases and cases involving sexual assault, drunk driving and
alimony. These are areas in which the opportunities for judges
to exercise discretion were limited by bills in the last
parliament.
Could the member comment on that? I believe it is a very
serious problem to restrict the opportunity of judges to do their
job. One reason we want to pay judges well is to get the most
talented individuals possible who will exercise the best
discretion possible. We must give those judges that discretion.
Mr. Peter MacKay: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member
for his commentary. His remarks reflect a great deal of insight
into this area.
With respect to the issue of mandatory minimum sentences which
he raised, I tend to agree that judges need to exercise
discretion. That is what they do. They exercise discretion
daily. The scope, breadth and effect of decisions are sometimes
staggering. The effect they can have on the everyday lives of
Canadians and of those affected can be very far reaching. However
there is a time and place for some limitations on that and those
would be imposed by mandatory minimum sentences in the Criminal
Code.
It is important to note that increasing victims rights does not
necessarily mean decreasing the right of the accused to be
presumed innocent. I do not think it is necessarily a
proportionate counter to say that any increase in victims rights
will result in a decrease in the rights of the accused.
I use as an example the discretion of a judge to use conditional
sentences in the area of serious sexual assaults or crimes of
violence. There is a need for parliament in that instance to
place some restrictions on the discretion of a judge to use a
conditional sentence for those types of crime. I do not think
that was the intent of parliament when conditional sentences were
introduced into the Criminal Code. As is the case with the law,
a growing tree moves in different directions. I believe that
provision of the code has been misinterpreted.
Impaired driving legislation was another example that was cited
by the hon. member. Once again I believe there is a need for
changes to the provisions of the Criminal Code as they pertain to
impaired driving. There is a need to improve the level of
accountability that impaired drivers suffer to their peril when
they decide to get behind the steering wheel of a car and
potentially put people's lives in jeopardy. If that means upping
the ante or improving the provisions of the Criminal Code for
sentencing I would encourage those changes.
He also spoke of the discretion judges can exercise in ordering
therapy or mandatory treatment for offenders. That is something
we should be encouraging, not trying to limit by imposing
mandatory use of those provisions in the sentencing provisions of
the code.
There is certainly a need for more discussion in this area. I
look forward, as I am sure the hon. member does, to trying to
improve our justice system and working diligently in that
direction.
1230
Mr. Derek Lee (Scarborough—Rouge River, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, over the last few weeks it has occurred to me that the
record of debate on this bill is less fulsome than perhaps it
should be. There are some issues that I think should be outlined
for the record for Canadians and for that other class of citizens
we do not see too much in the political arena, the judges. Yes,
they are all citizens and generally all active civic
participants. They care a great deal about what happens in our
communities, in our courts, in our parliaments and in our
legislatures.
One of their handicaps as a group is precisely that we in our
society legally and in many other ways set judges aside because
we want them to be and appear to be impartial. We want them to
be wise and experienced and to bring that with them to the bench
when they are appointed. But after they get to the bench they are
relatively pigeon-holed, set aside, relatively secluded and
unable to generally engage in public debate or in community or
political discourse which is the source of the problem that
originally gave rise to the Supreme Court of Canada decision in
the Beauregard case and one other court application.
It was not a decision that changed the course of Canadian
history but I believe it could be called a landmark because for
the first time the court set down what it believed was the proper
constitutional framework for the other parts of government in
Canada to deal with the judiciary as an administrative wing.
Canadians all realize our judges are paid from the public purse.
Somewhere in the public service in Ottawa and in each of the
provincial capitals cheques are cranked out, as they are for all
public servants, and judges are paid an amount. However, judges
do not have a union or a collective agreement. I think there was
some reference earlier today to crown attorneys in the province
of Nova Scotia walking a picket line. Judges do not walk picket
lines either, at least the last time I looked, and they do not do
it for the reasons I outlined earlier, which is that legally and
socially our judges are asked to set themselves aside and
maintain their impartiality.
That impartiality is a two sided coin. What happened over the
last few years were a few occasions of governments, not
necessarily legislatures but administrative governments, making
changes to the levels of compensation of judges in various
provinces. Some of the judges in these provinces took exception
to the process that was used. When they did, which they could
not do publicly, there was a disagreement over who was in charge.
The judges maintained the position that stated there should be a
continuing and ongoing process so that everyone, the judges, the
governments and the legislatures, will know what the process is
for dealing with matters of compensation, pay and benefits and
working conditions of judges.
The Supreme Court of Canada has given guidance to all
governments in Canada, including the Government of Canada, and
guidance to the parliaments and legislatures in Canada as to what
this process should be. I do not see how any Canadian or
parliamentarian in the House could object to their being a
process that was in place and continued to operate for that
purpose.
1235
It was important that the supreme court do that because
governments are prone to do from time to time, and we in this
House on both sides know about this phenomenon, taking their
piece of the power pie and using it the way they feel is best
with or without the guidance of legislatures and parliaments, in
this case perhaps without the consultation with the judicial
constituency.
That process is in place. We have to keep in mind that our
judges do not have an outlet, a mechanism, an ombudsman, a method
of dealing with the issues that deal with the administration of
their pay and benefits. The court has said there must be a
process. That process in part involves what previously was a
three year commission. Every three years a commission would look
at the issues of pay and benefits and report back to the
respective government. In this case it is the Government of
Canada.
Some provinces did not have this mechanism. Now based on the
supreme court decision that process will be required to be in
place. We in this House have taken advantage of that decision
and have decided to refine or modify the current process. We do
have a process for federal judges. The changes are modest. The
commission will do its work every four years rather than every
three years. There are some fine tuning provisions regarding how
the individuals on the commission are selected and how they will
be remunerated for the period of time they spend on the issue.
One of the compelling political issues surrounding the existence
of a commission and the process has been raised by the member for
Crowfoot. He seems to be asking whether parliament must be
subservient to whatever is in this commission report, whether
parliament must rubber stamp what is in it.
I think it is important to read the supreme court decision which
is there for our guidance. It has stated there must be a process
and the process should not be interfered with by other forces.
When the commission makes its report it should be adopted.
The question is does a government, does a parliament, does a
legislature have to adopt comprehensively every element of the
report. I do not think that is what the supreme court said. But
it certainly did say that if a parliament or a legislature or a
government were to proceed in a direction other than that which
was provided for in the report, then it must have good reasons
that apply to the country as a whole.
I do make reference to the provision of the supreme court
decision that says judges cannot shield themselves from the
economic circumstances that other Canadians must endure. They
have to shoulder their fair share of what the country is or is
not into economically. I am quite sure all judges endorse that.
There is a frustration on the part of some parliamentarians and
some suggestion perhaps that somehow parliament, because the
supreme court says we must proceed this way, has lost control.
This is not the case. When this measure is voted on, not all
members of parliament will vote in favour of the bill.
1240
I suggest that manifests very clearly that it is not wrong or
improper to not follow what the report says. The courts do say,
and I support this, that if the report is not to be followed the
reasons should be rational, clear and relate to the circumstances
that apply to all Canadians.
One of the other underlying themes of this legislation is the
process by which we set judges' salaries. I know there is an
underlying principle and I hope Canadians accept it. In
selecting compensation levels for judges our goal is to pay
amounts that will attract the best and the brightest to the
judiciary. I accept that it is not our goal to simply attract
judges. We must attract the best available people, the best
candidates to be judges. It is difficult to make comparisons
with other professions such as a surgeon. We want people who
would not simply open the owners manual and go through the manual
as to how one does a heart operation. We want people who not
only know the manual and the specs but who are extremely capable,
intellectually capable, well rounded people who understand all
the elements that go into judicial decisions and dispute
resolutions in our country.
We have to make sure we have the best. To do anything other
than that is penny wise and pound foolish. If we pay low amounts
for judges we run the risk that we will not get the best. If we
do not have the best making judicial decisions this will, more
than anything else, undermine the confidence of Canadians in our
Canadian judiciary and our justice system. The judges are the
focal point of that system. They are the fulcrum on which the
whole system turns. If judges are not good at what they do our
judicial system will suffer. We do have a good one in Canada. We
have one of the best in the world. People come from all over the
world to take a look at how we run things in Canada. We want to
keep it that way.
I must address the level of increase for judges. The commission
did its very best to isolate what it felt was the appropriate
compensation level for judges of the calibre and level that we
are dealing with in our courts. Historically, going back 10, 20,
30 years, there was a benchmark established. It was a rough
benchmark. Some judges thought it was a good idea. Others did
not. We did not have Gallup do a poll with the judges to figure
these things out. We have to make these judgments in this House.
The benchmark was one that set judges' salaries at a level
equivalent to the level of the civil service category called
DM-3. I think that means deputy minister three. It would be the
third level of deputy minister. That is one of the highest
levels of the deputy minister compensation package.
Over the last few years the DM-3 level has gone up. Judges'
salaries were frozen back in the early 1990s along with almost
all other public servants and members of parliament. There was
some drift. Now the DM-3 level of compensation has gone up and
the compensation level of the judges has stayed.
1245
The Scott Commission has addressed this and in its own way has
pointed out the percentage levels by which we should be
increasing the judges' salaries to get back to the benchmark.
Because some judges have rejected the concept of judges being in
the same category as public servants, I think the Scott
Commission report did not pay a lot of attention to that direct
linkage and it looked at other reasons to provide the increase.
Let us put on the record what the increase is. It is the
equivalent, over a two year period, of roughly 4%, plus 4%, plus
2% relative to the cost of living, plus 2% relative to the cost
of living. If this bill is adopted those increases would be the
ones that would be applicable to judges' salaries and they would
be retroactive to last year and would move up into 1999.
Originally I had a problem with the way the Scott Commission
report was worded. It might have been interpreted by some to
suggest that what the judges were doing was simply catching up
from where they were before the salary freezes were imposed
across the federal public service.
On that basis, as a member of parliament, I would have fully
rejected the proposal. I am not accepting that judges or anyone
else in the federal public service should have what has become
known as “catch up”. I did not buy it. Because some of the
percentage increases I have just referred to were the equivalent
of the remuneration lost during the period of the salary freezes,
I was very cautious about the recommendations. But at the
justice committee hearings it became clear that what the Scott
Commission was trying to do was to place judges back in the
ballpark of the DM-3 level where they have been for many years.
It was not catch up for the salary lost through the freeze
period.
I am more comfortable with that now. The only missing item in
the circumstances at play now is that we need a better
understanding among parliamentarians of the process that is at
play so that the next time a commission report comes up it will
not be necessary for parliamentarians to stand and say “How can
one court of unelected judges be dictating to Canada's sovereign
Parliament what it must legislate?”
That type of suggestion reflects a misunderstanding of the
process recommended by the supreme court. I do not quite know
how to bring parliamentarians to a better understanding of that.
I am sure the supreme court judgement would make boring bedtime
reading, but I do commend it to those who have an interest in the
issue.
Last but not least, just to put things in perspective a bit, I
note that the member for Crowfoot is an active member of the
justice committee. His remarks earlier referred to the dollar
amounts of the increases and how there were still pockets of
poverty and people in Canada in difficult economic circumstances,
all of which is true and all of which this House continues to
recognize.
He was indicating that a large dollar amount is involved. I
just want to say that if the increases are the equivalent of
$10,000 or $15,000, the last time I looked at the tax rates there
is a consolation prize for the taxpayers because about half of
the increases will come back in income tax deductions from the
judges' cheques. That is true for all Canadians, not just
judges.
I suppose the point I am making is, let us not be too distracted
by the numbers and let us make the best decision consistent with
the supreme court and the needs of our judicial community.
1250
Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I asked a question of an earlier speaker with respect to
the growing trend in legislation to limit the discretion of
judges. The member who just spoke was in the Chamber at that
time and heard my question. I wonder if he would like to share
with us some of his thoughts on this whole question of limiting
the discretion of judges.
Mr. Derek Lee: Mr. Speaker, the issue put forward by the
hon. member is one that is not amenable to easy debate.
The reason we give discretion to our judges in dispute
resolution or resolving issues is because we the lawmakers are
unable to organize, set out and nail down with precision how
every dispute should be resolved. It is simply impossible for
the House to sit in judgment and settle disputes between citizens
as the Lord Chancellor of the Exchequer used to do for the king
or as the king himself used to do centuries ago.
Judges are sometimes uncomfortable if the laws do not set out a
proper framework. I have often read judgments where judges point
out that the area they are dealing with is one that should be
addressed by legislators and structured a bit better to give
better direction to judges and those who are organizing their
affairs.
On the one hand we have a group in society which suggests that
judges have too much discretion, too much power, which, being
unelected, they should not have. There are others, and I think I
am in the second group, who say that if there is too much
discretion, if we fail to structure it properly in our laws, then
it is our job to make sure we do it right. That is an ongoing
process in society and I think we are doing reasonably well in
this parliament.
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
I appreciate the opportunity to speak briefly to Bill C-37, an
act to amend the Judges Act. I know we will be breaking for
votes in several minutes and I will therefore summarize my
remarks.
I would like, first of all, to commend the hon. member for
Scarborough—Rouge River for his thoughtful remarks. He spent a
great deal of time and attention on this issue and I share many
of his concerns about the question of judicial compensation.
I also wish at the outset to associate myself with the remarks
of my hon. colleague from Crowfoot whom I think eloquently
expressed the inappropriateness of parliament granting a de facto
10% compensation increase to members of the federal judiciary
over the next two years at a time when Canadians have suffered
from a reduction in their after tax disposable income over the
past two decades.
It occurs to me that parliament's principal obligation is to
promote the interests of all Canadians and not small groups of
Canadians. It seems to me that until all Canadians have seen
some increase in their disposable income and an increased
standard of living, we ought not to be using our power to
increase the disposable after tax income of a particular discrete
elite in our society such as judges.
I would also like to say that we are now debating Bill C-37 and
this afternoon we are going to be very briefly debating Bill
C-47, which applies to compensation increases for members of this
House. One cannot comment on the judges bill without taking note
of the fact that we will be voting on our own pay increase this
afternoon.
Unfortunately I will not have an opportunity to speak to that
bill because of a motion that was granted by unanimous consent of
this place to limit debate.
1255
The Scott commission on the increase in federal judges' salaries
recommended this 10% increase and the government has taken that
recommendation in the sense that it has legislated it in Bill
C-37. I find it very interesting that there is a double
standard. Bill C-47, concerning MPs' compensation, which we will
be debating and voting on this afternoon, has been brought before
this place without consideration being given to the report of
another independent commission, the Blais commission, which was
established following the last general election to review and
make recommendations on the compensation paid to
parliamentarians.
It occurs to me that we are creating another double standard.
Canadians have shrinking disposable incomes because of high taxes
and we are proposing an increase in pay for judges. We are also
creating a double standard when we accept the binding
recommendations of one commission on compensation, the Scott
commission, but on the other hand ignore the recommendations of
the Blais commission.
I have a very serious problem with this process which I would
like to put on the record. I feel that the Blais commission,
like the Scott commission, did good work and was sincere in its
recommendations, which I thought were very thoughtful and
appropriate.
Among other things, the commission recommended full transparency
in MP compensation. It recommended scrapping the tax free
expense allowance and replacing it with a proportionate amount of
taxable income so that MPs alone could no longer exempt
themselves from the tax laws that we impose on other Canadians.
It recommended no net increase in actual compensation, contrary
to the recommendations of the Scott commission for judges, and it
recommended reform of the members' pension plan. It also
recommended an increase in the housing allowance available to
parliamentarians.
On the whole, I thought these were sensible recommendations
which respected the need for a single standard of compensation
for all Canadians. We ought not to choose one particular group
of people, in particular ourselves, to exempt ourselves from the
laws that apply to the rest of Canadians, as we do by exempting
one-third of our income from the Income Tax Act. We ought to
follow the same guideline when it comes to our retirement
allowances.
When the Scott commission came down with its report, the
government said “Fine. Everything is well. We will go ahead
without even a review of a parliamentary committee and legislate
this 10% increase”. When the Blais commission came down with
its report, suddenly there was a huge clamour among government
MPs who said that they rejected its recommendations. I do not
suspect all of them did, but certainly some did.
I quote, for instance, the hon. member for Mississauga Centre
who in the February 9 edition of the The Hill Times said
with respect to the recommendation of the Blais commission that
we eliminate the tax free expense allowance and gross up the
taxable salaries “If we are going to get nailed, at least we
want to get nailed for a reason and see it in the wallet. Screw
the Blais report”.
I find that very difficult to swallow, coming from a member of
the government which legislated the Scott commission report. We
did not say, in the words of that hon. member, “Screw the Scott
commission report”—excuse me, Mr. Speaker, but I am quoting
another member—but we did with respect to the Blais commission
report.
I would like to put this on the record and say that I object to
the process by which our own compensation has been handled. I
think the process that is contemplated in Bill C-37 is far more
appropriate, where an independent commission would make the
decisions and recommendations. Although I disagree with the
recommendations of the Scott commission and will vote against the
bill because of them, I do think that we need to take these
decisions out of our own hands, particularly where there is a
conflict of interest.
I hope that we will at some point in this place revise the
manner in which we change our own compensation so that it is an
arm's length process which will not be compromised by an inherent
conflict of interest.
The Speaker: Pursuant to order made on Wednesday, June
10, 1998, all questions necessary to dispose of the third reading
stage of the bill now before the House are deemed put and the
recorded divisions are deemed requested and deferred until
immediately after completion of the divisions on Bill C-38.
* * *
1300
NATIONAL PARKS ACT
The House resumed consideration of Bill C-38, an act to amend
the National Parks Act, as reported (without amendment) from the
committee.
The Speaker: The House will now proceed to the taking of
the deferred recorded divisions at the report stage of Bill C-38.
The question is on Motion No. 2.
Call in the members.
1325
(The House divided on Motion No. 2, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Alarie
| Axworthy
(Saskatoon – Rosetown – Biggar)
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bellehumeur
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bigras
| Blaikie
|
Brien
| Canuel
| Dalphond - Guiral
| Davies
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Desrochers
| Dubé
(Lévis)
|
Duceppe
| Dumas
| Earle
| Fournier
|
Gagnon
| Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
|
Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Guay
| Guimond
| Laliberte
|
Lalonde
| Laurin
| Lebel
| Lefebvre
|
Loubier
| Mancini
| Marceau
| Marchand
|
McDonough
| Ménard
| Nystrom
| Perron
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Plamondon
| Proctor
| Robinson
|
Sauvageau
| Solomon
| St - Hilaire
| Stoffer
|
Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Vautour
|
Wasylycia - Leis – 53
|
NAYS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Adams
| Alcock
|
Anders
| Anderson
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Bailey
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Benoit
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
|
Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
|
Bonwick
| Borotsik
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
|
Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
| Brison
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Byrne
| Caccia
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
|
Chatters
| Chrétien
(Saint - Maurice)
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Cohen
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
|
Cullen
| Cummins
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
|
Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
| Dromisky
|
Drouin
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duhamel
| Duncan
|
Easter
| Elley
| Epp
| Finestone
|
Folco
| Fontana
| Fry
| Gagliano
|
Gallaway
| Gilmour
| Godfrey
| Goldring
|
Goodale
| Gouk
| Graham
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Hanger
| Harb
|
Harris
| Hart
| Harvard
| Harvey
|
Herron
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
|
Hoeppner
| Hubbard
| Ianno
| Iftody
|
Jackson
| Jaffer
| Jennings
| Johnston
|
Jones
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
|
Keyes
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Konrad
|
Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lee
|
Leung
| Lincoln
| Longfield
| Lowther
|
Lunn
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
| Malhi
|
Maloney
| Manley
| Manning
| Marchi
|
Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Massé
| Matthews
| Mayfield
|
McCormick
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
|
McNally
| McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mifflin
|
Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Minna
| Mitchell
|
Muise
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Normand
| Obhrai
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Penson
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Pickard
(Kent – Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Pratt
|
Price
| Proud
| Provenzano
| Ramsay
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Ritz
|
Robillard
| Rock
| Saada
| Scott
(Fredericton)
|
Sekora
| Serré
| Shepherd
| Solberg
|
Speller
| St. Denis
| Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Stinson
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
|
Strahl
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
|
Thompson
(Charlotte)
| Torsney
| Ur
| Valeri
|
Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
| Whelan
|
White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
| Wilfert
| Williams
|
Wood – 201
|
PAIRED
Members
Asselin
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
Eggleton
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| MacAulay
| Marleau
|
Mercier
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
| Rocheleau
| Venne
|
The Speaker: I declare Motion No. 2 defeated. The next
question is on Motion No. 3.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, I would propose that
you seek the unanimous consent of the House that the members who
voted on the previous motion be recorded as having voted on the
motion now before the House, with Liberal members voting no.
1330
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Chuck Strahl: Mr. Speaker, the official opposition
will vote no to this as well. I would ask that you include in
this vote the member for Crowfoot, the member for Cypress
Hills—Grasslands and the member for West Vancouver—Sunshine
Coast who are with us for this vote.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, members of the Bloc
Quebecois will be voting in favour of the motion. The hon.
member for Manicouagan, who had to leave, should however be
excluded from this vote.
[English]
Mr. John Solomon: Mr. Speaker, the New Democratic Party
members present vote no on this motion except for the member from
Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar who stepped out to hold a press
conference on his Internet child pornography prevention act.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, the members of our party who are
present vote nay on this motion.
[English]
Mr. Mike Scott: Mr. Speaker, on the first vote I
abstained from voting and I would like to be recorded as voting
in favour of this motion.
The Speaker: The abstention will not be recorded but you
will be recorded on this vote.
Mr. Gerald Keddy: Mr. Speaker, I would like to be
recorded as voting no on this motion as well.
Mr. Rob Anders: Mr. Speaker, I voted against the first
motion but I am voting in favour of the second.
The Speaker: Colleagues, we can do this quite
expeditiously. Those who want to vote differently from their
party on this vote, I invite you to stand and I will call you by
name.
The hon. member for Cypress Hills—Grasslands, the hon. member
for Skeena, the hon. member for Cariboo—Chilcotin, the hon.
member for Saanich—Gulf Islands, the hon. member for Calgary
West, the hon. member for South Shore.
(The House divided on Motion No. 3, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Alarie
| Anders
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bellehumeur
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bigras
| Brien
|
Canuel
| Dalphond - Guiral
| de Savoye
| Debien
|
Desrochers
| Dubé
(Lévis)
| Duceppe
| Dumas
|
Gagnon
| Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
|
Guay
| Guimond
| Keddy
(South Shore)
| Lalonde
|
Laurin
| Lebel
| Lefebvre
| Loubier
|
Lunn
| Marceau
| Marchand
| Mayfield
|
Ménard
| Morrison
| Perron
| Picard
(Drummond)
|
Plamondon
| Ramsay
| Reynolds
| Sauvageau
|
St - Hilaire
| Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp – 44
|
NAYS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Adams
| Alcock
|
Anders
| Anderson
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Bailey
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Benoit
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
|
Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blaikie
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
| Brison
| Brown
|
Bryden
| Bulte
| Byrne
| Caccia
|
Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Charbonneau
| Chatters
| Chrétien
(Saint - Maurice)
| Clouthier
|
Coderre
| Cohen
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
|
Copps
| Cullen
| Cummins
| Davies
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
|
Doyle
| Dromisky
| Drouin
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
|
Duhamel
| Duncan
| Earle
| Easter
|
Elley
| Epp
| Finestone
| Folco
|
Fontana
| Fry
| Gagliano
| Gallaway
|
Gilmour
| Godfrey
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
|
Goodale
| Gouk
| Graham
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Hanger
| Harb
|
Harris
| Hart
| Harvard
| Harvey
|
Herron
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
|
Hoeppner
| Hubbard
| Ianno
| Iftody
|
Jackson
| Jaffer
| Jennings
| Johnston
|
Jones
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
|
Keyes
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Konrad
|
Kraft Sloan
| Laliberte
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Leung
| Lincoln
| Longfield
|
Lowther
| Lunn
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Mancini
| Manley
|
Manning
| Marchi
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Massé
|
Matthews
| Mayfield
| McCormick
| McDonough
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McNally
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mifflin
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Muise
|
Murray
| Myers
| Nault
| Normand
|
Nystrom
| Obhrai
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Penson
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Pickard
(Kent – Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Pratt
|
Price
| Proctor
| Proud
| Provenzano
|
Ramsay
| Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
|
Ritz
| Robillard
| Robinson
| Rock
|
Saada
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Scott
(Skeena)
| Sekora
|
Serré
| Shepherd
| Solberg
| Solomon
|
Speller
| St. Denis
| Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Stinson
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
|
Stoffer
| Strahl
| Szabo
| Telegdi
|
Thibeault
| Thompson
(Charlotte)
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Vautour
| Volpe
|
Wappel
| Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
|
White
(North Vancouver)
| Wilfert
| Williams
| Wood – 216
|
PAIRED
Members
Asselin
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
Eggleton
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| MacAulay
| Marleau
|
Mercier
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
| Rocheleau
| Venne
|
The Speaker: I declare Motion No. 3 defeated
Hon. Sheila Copps (Minister of Canadian Heritage, Lib.)
moved that the bill be concurred in.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, I believe you would
find consent in the House that the vote taken on the previous
motion be applied to the vote on concurrence in reverse.
1335
Mr. Chuck Strahl: Mr. Speaker, at concurrence stage on
Bill C-38 the Reform Party will vote yes.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, members of the Bloc
Quebecois are against this motion.
[English]
Mr. John Solomon: Mr. Speaker, members of the NDP will
vote yes with the inclusion of the member for Bras D'or who has
just arrived.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, members of our party vote yea on
this motion.
[English]
The Speaker: I invite members who are voting opposite to
what their party has said to please stand and be recorded.
Mr. Mike Scott: Mr. Speaker, I would like to have my
vote as abstaining on this motion.
The Speaker: Colleagues, as you know, we do not have
abstaining votes in the House.
Mr. Chuck Strahl: Mr. Speaker, we are getting close to
the end. We must have a provision if we are going to apply votes
for those who do not wish to stand. We either have to go through
the whole process here and allow people to remain seated or we
have to strike the member for Skeena from either yes or no, just
not recorded.
The Speaker: That is what we are going to do.
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Adams
| Alcock
|
Anderson
| Assad
| Assadourian
| Augustine
|
Bailey
| Baker
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
|
Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Benoit
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
|
Bevilacqua
| Blaikie
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
|
Bonwick
| Borotsik
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
|
Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
| Brison
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Byrne
| Caccia
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
|
Chatters
| Chrétien
(Saint - Maurice)
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Cohen
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
|
Cullen
| Cummins
| Davies
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
| Dockrill
|
Doyle
| Dromisky
| Drouin
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
|
Duhamel
| Duncan
| Earle
| Easter
|
Elley
| Epp
| Finestone
| Folco
|
Fontana
| Fry
| Gagliano
| Gallaway
|
Gilmour
| Godfrey
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
|
Goodale
| Gouk
| Graham
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Hanger
| Harb
|
Harris
| Hart
| Harvard
| Harvey
|
Herron
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
|
Hoeppner
| Hubbard
| Ianno
| Iftody
|
Jackson
| Jaffer
| Jennings
| Johnston
|
Jones
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
|
Keyes
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Konrad
|
Kraft Sloan
| Laliberte
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Leung
| Lincoln
| Longfield
|
Lowther
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
| Malhi
|
Maloney
| Mancini
| Manley
| Manning
|
Marchi
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Massé
| Matthews
|
McCormick
| McDonough
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
|
McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McNally
| McTeague
| McWhinney
|
Mifflin
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Minna
|
Mitchell
| Muise
| Murray
| Myers
|
Nault
| Normand
| Nystrom
| Obhrai
|
O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
|
Parrish
| Patry
| Penson
| Peric
|
Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Kent – Essex)
|
Pillitteri
| Pratt
| Price
| Proctor
|
Proud
| Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
|
Richardson
| Ritz
| Robillard
| Robinson
|
Rock
| Saada
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Sekora
|
Serré
| Shepherd
| Solberg
| Solomon
|
Speller
| St. Denis
| Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Stinson
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
|
Stoffer
| Strahl
| Szabo
| Telegdi
|
Thibeault
| Thompson
(Charlotte)
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Vautour
| Volpe
|
Wappel
| Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
|
White
(North Vancouver)
| Wilfert
| Williams
| Wood – 212
|
NAYS
Members
Alarie
| Anders
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bellehumeur
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bigras
| Brien
|
Canuel
| Dalphond - Guiral
| de Savoye
| Debien
|
Desrochers
| Dubé
(Lévis)
| Duceppe
| Dumas
|
Gagnon
| Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
|
Guay
| Guimond
| Keddy
(South Shore)
| Lalonde
|
Laurin
| Lebel
| Lefebvre
| Loubier
|
Lunn
| Marceau
| Marchand
| Mayfield
|
Ménard
| Morrison
| Perron
| Picard
(Drummond)
|
Plamondon
| Ramsay
| Reynolds
| Sauvageau
|
St - Hilaire
| Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp – 44
|
PAIRED
Members
Asselin
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
Eggleton
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| MacAulay
| Marleau
|
Mercier
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
| Rocheleau
| Venne
|
The Speaker: I declare the motion agreed to.
* * *
JUDGES ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-37, an
act to amend the Judges Act and to make consequential amendments
to other acts, be read the third time and passed.
The Speaker: Pursuant to order made on Wednesday, June
10, 1998, the next recorded division is on the motion at the
third reading stage of Bill C-37.
[Translation]
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, you would find there is
unanimous consent that the hon. members who voted on the
previous motion be recorded as having voted on the motion now
before the House, with Liberal members voting nay.
[English]
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Chuck Strahl: Mr. Speaker, Reform Party members
present vote no to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, members of the Bloc
Quebecois vote nay on this motion.
[English]
Mr. John Solomon: Mr. Speaker, members of the NDP present
vote no on this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, the members of our party who are
present vote yea on this motion.
[English]
The Speaker: I invite members who are not voting with
their party to stand and be recognized.
Mr. Gary Lunn: Mr. Speaker, I wish to be recorded as
voting in favour of this motion.
The Speaker: You will be recorded.
1340
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Anderson
| Assad
|
Assadourian
| Augustine
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
|
Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
|
Borotsik
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brison
|
Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
| Byrne
|
Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
|
Carroll
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Chrétien
(Saint - Maurice)
| Clouthier
|
Coderre
| Cohen
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
|
Copps
| Cullen
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
|
Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
| Dromisky
|
Drouin
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duhamel
| Easter
|
Finestone
| Folco
| Fontana
| Fry
|
Gagliano
| Gallaway
| Godfrey
| Goodale
|
Graham
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Harb
|
Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
| Hubbard
|
Ianno
| Iftody
| Jackson
| Jennings
|
Jones
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Keddy
(South Shore)
|
Keyes
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lincoln
| Longfield
| Lunn
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
|
Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
|
Marchi
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Massé
| Matthews
|
McCormick
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mifflin
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Minna
| Mitchell
| Muise
| Murray
|
Myers
| Nault
| Normand
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
|
O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
|
Patry
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Pickard
(Kent – Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Pratt
|
Price
| Proud
| Provenzano
| Redman
|
Reed
| Richardson
| Robillard
| Rock
|
Saada
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
| Steckle
|
Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
|
Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Thompson
(Charlotte)
|
Torsney
| Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
|
Volpe
| Wappel
| Whelan
| Wilfert
|
Wood – 161
|
NAYS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Alarie
| Anders
|
Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bigras
| Blaikie
|
Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
| Brien
| Canuel
| Chatters
|
Cummins
| Dalphond - Guiral
| Davies
| de Savoye
|
Debien
| Desrochers
| Dockrill
| Dubé
(Lévis)
|
Duceppe
| Dumas
| Duncan
| Earle
|
Elley
| Epp
| Gagnon
| Gauthier
|
Gilmour
| Girard - Bujold
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
|
Goldring
| Gouk
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Guay
|
Guimond
| Hanger
| Harris
| Hart
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hoeppner
|
Jaffer
| Johnston
| Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
| Konrad
|
Laliberte
| Lalonde
| Laurin
| Lebel
|
Lefebvre
| Loubier
| Lowther
| Mancini
|
Manning
| Marceau
| Marchand
| Mayfield
|
McDonough
| McNally
| Ménard
| Mills
(Red Deer)
|
Morrison
| Nystrom
| Obhrai
| Penson
|
Perron
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Plamondon
| Proctor
|
Ramsay
| Reynolds
| Ritz
| Robinson
|
Sauvageau
| Scott
(Skeena)
| Solberg
| Solomon
|
St - Hilaire
| Stinson
| Stoffer
| Strahl
|
Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Vautour
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
| Williams – 96
|
PAIRED
Members
Asselin
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
Eggleton
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| MacAulay
| Marleau
|
Mercier
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
| Rocheleau
| Venne
|
The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
(Bill read the third time and passed)
* * *
NATIONAL DEFENCE ACT
The House resumed from June 10 consideration of the motion that
Bill C-25, an act to amend the National Defence Act and to make
consequential amendments to other acts, be read the third time
and passed.
The Speaker: Pursuant to order made on Wednesday, June
10, 1998, the House will now proceed to the taking of the
deferred recorded division on the motion at the third reading
stage of Bill C-25.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, I propose that you
seek unanimous consent from the House that the members who voted
on the previous motion be recorded as having voted on the motion
now before the House, with the Liberal members voting yes.
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Chuck Strahl: Mr. Speaker, Reform Party members
present vote no to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, members of the Bloc
Quebecois oppose this motion.
[English]
Mr. John Solomon: Mr. Speaker, members of the NDP present
vote no on this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, members of our party vote nay on
this motion.
[English]
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Anderson
| Assad
|
Assadourian
| Augustine
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
|
Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
|
Byrne
| Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
|
Caplan
| Carroll
| Catterall
| Cauchon
|
Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
| Chrétien
(Saint - Maurice)
|
Clouthier
| Coderre
| Cohen
| Collenette
|
Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
| Dromisky
|
Drouin
| Duhamel
| Easter
| Finestone
|
Folco
| Fontana
| Fry
| Gagliano
|
Gallaway
| Godfrey
| Goodale
| Graham
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Harb
| Harvard
|
Hubbard
| Ianno
| Iftody
| Jackson
|
Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Keyes
|
Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
|
Lavigne
| Lee
| Leung
| Lincoln
|
Longfield
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Manley
| Marchi
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Massé
|
McCormick
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mifflin
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Minna
| Mitchell
| Murray
| Myers
|
Nault
| Normand
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
|
Pickard
(Kent – Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Pratt
| Proud
|
Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
|
Robillard
| Rock
| Saada
| Scott
(Fredericton)
|
Sekora
| Serré
| Shepherd
| Speller
|
St. Denis
| Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
St - Julien
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
|
Torsney
| Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
|
Volpe
| Wappel
| Whelan
| Wilfert
|
Wood – 145
|
NAYS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Alarie
| Anders
|
Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bigras
|
Blaikie
| Borotsik
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
| Brien
|
Brison
| Canuel
| Chatters
| Cummins
|
Dalphond - Guiral
| Davies
| de Savoye
| Debien
|
Desrochers
| Dockrill
| Doyle
| Dubé
(Lévis)
|
Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duceppe
| Dumas
| Duncan
|
Earle
| Elley
| Epp
| Gagnon
|
Gauthier
| Gilmour
| Girard - Bujold
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
|
Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Goldring
| Gouk
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
|
Guay
| Guimond
| Hanger
| Harris
|
Hart
| Harvey
| Herron
| Hill
(Macleod)
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hoeppner
| Jaffer
|
Johnston
| Jones
| Keddy
(South Shore)
| Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
|
Konrad
| Laliberte
| Lalonde
| Laurin
|
Lebel
| Lefebvre
| Loubier
| Lowther
|
Lunn
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mancini
| Manning
|
Marceau
| Marchand
| Matthews
| Mayfield
|
McDonough
| McNally
| Ménard
| Mills
(Red Deer)
|
Morrison
| Muise
| Nystrom
| Obhrai
|
Penson
| Perron
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Plamondon
|
Price
| Proctor
| Ramsay
| Reynolds
|
Ritz
| Robinson
| Sauvageau
| Scott
(Skeena)
|
Solberg
| Solomon
| St - Hilaire
| Stinson
|
St - Jacques
| Stoffer
| Strahl
| Thompson
(Charlotte)
|
Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Vautour
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
| Williams – 112
|
PAIRED
Members
Asselin
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
Eggleton
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| MacAulay
| Marleau
|
Mercier
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
| Rocheleau
| Venne
|
The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
(Bill read the third time and passed)
* * *
MI'KMAQ EDUCATION ACT
The House resumed from June 10 consideration of the motion that
Bill C-30, an act respecting the powers of the Mi'kmaq of Nova
Scotia in relation to education, be read the third time and
passed.
The Speaker: The next recorded division is on the motion
at the third reading stage of Bill C-30.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, I think you would
find unanimous consent that the members who voted on the previous
motion be record as having voted on the motion now before the
House, with Liberal members voting yes.
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Chuck Strahl: Mr. Speaker, Reform Party members
present vote no to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, members of the Bloc
Quebecois will be voting in favour of the motion.
[English]
Mr. John Solomon: Mr. Speaker, members of the NDP present
will vote yes on this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, members of our party vote yea on
this motion.
[English]
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Alarie
| Alcock
| Anderson
|
Assad
| Assadourian
| Augustine
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
|
Baker
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
|
Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellehumeur
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
|
Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Bigras
| Blaikie
|
Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
|
Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brien
| Brison
|
Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
| Byrne
|
Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
| Canuel
|
Caplan
| Carroll
| Catterall
| Cauchon
|
Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
| Chrétien
(Saint - Maurice)
|
Clouthier
| Coderre
| Cohen
| Collenette
|
Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
| Dalphond - Guiral
|
Davies
| de Savoye
| Debien
| Desrochers
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
|
Dockrill
| Doyle
| Dromisky
| Drouin
|
Dubé
(Lévis)
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duceppe
| Duhamel
|
Dumas
| Earle
| Easter
| Finestone
|
Folco
| Fontana
| Fry
| Gagliano
|
Gagnon
| Gallaway
| Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
|
Godfrey
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Goodale
|
Graham
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Guay
|
Guimond
| Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
|
Herron
| Hubbard
| Ianno
| Iftody
|
Jackson
| Jennings
| Jones
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Keddy
(South Shore)
| Keyes
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Laliberte
| Lalonde
|
Lastewka
| Laurin
| Lavigne
| Lebel
|
Lee
| Lefebvre
| Leung
| Lincoln
|
Longfield
| Loubier
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Mancini
| Manley
|
Marceau
| Marchand
| Marchi
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
|
Massé
| Matthews
| McCormick
| McDonough
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McTeague
|
McWhinney
| Ménard
| Mifflin
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Minna
| Mitchell
| Muise
| Murray
|
Myers
| Nault
| Normand
| Nystrom
|
O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
|
Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
| Perron
|
Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Picard
(Drummond)
|
Pickard
(Kent – Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Plamondon
| Pratt
|
Price
| Proctor
| Proud
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Robillard
|
Robinson
| Rock
| Saada
| Sauvageau
|
Scott
(Fredericton)
| Sekora
| Serré
| Shepherd
|
Solomon
| Speller
| St. Denis
| Steckle
|
Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
| St - Hilaire
| St - Jacques
|
St - Julien
| Stoffer
| Szabo
| Telegdi
|
Thibeault
| Thompson
(Charlotte)
| Torsney
| Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
|
Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Ur
| Valeri
|
Vanclief
| Vautour
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| Wilfert
| Wood
– 212
|
NAYS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Anders
| Bailey
|
Benoit
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
| Chatters
| Cummins
|
Duncan
| Elley
| Epp
| Gilmour
|
Goldring
| Gouk
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Hanger
|
Harris
| Hart
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
|
Hilstrom
| Hoeppner
| Jaffer
| Johnston
|
Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
| Konrad
| Lowther
| Lunn
|
Manning
| Mayfield
| McNally
| Mills
(Red Deer)
|
Morrison
| Obhrai
| Penson
| Ramsay
|
Reynolds
| Ritz
| Scott
(Skeena)
| Solberg
|
Stinson
| Strahl
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
|
Williams – 45
|
PAIRED
Members
Asselin
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
Eggleton
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| MacAulay
| Marleau
|
Mercier
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
| Rocheleau
| Venne
|
The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
(Bill read the third time and passed)
* * *
CANADIAN WHEAT BOARD
The House resumed from June 10 consideration of the motion in
relation to the amendments made by the Senate to Bill C-4, an
act to amend the Canadian Wheat Board Act and to make
consequential amendments to other acts; and of the amendment.
The Speaker: The House will now proceed to the taking of
the deferred recorded division on the amendment to the motion to
concur in the Senate amendments to Bill C-4.
[Translation]
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, you would find there is
unanimous consent that the hon. members who voted on the
previous motion be recorded as having voted on the motion now
before the House, with Liberal members voting nay.
[English]
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Chuck Strahl: Mr. Speaker, the Reformers are proud to
vote yes to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, members of the Bloc
Quebecois oppose this motion.
[English]
Mr. John Solomon: Mr. Speaker, NDP members present vote
no on this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, the members of our party who are
present vote yea on this motion.
1345
[English]
(The House divided on the amendment, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Anders
| Bailey
|
Benoit
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Borotsik
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
|
Brison
| Chatters
| Cummins
| Doyle
|
Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duncan
| Elley
| Epp
|
Gilmour
| Goldring
| Gouk
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
|
Hanger
| Harris
| Hart
| Harvey
|
Herron
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
|
Hoeppner
| Jaffer
| Johnston
| Jones
|
Keddy
(South Shore)
| Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
| Konrad
| Lowther
|
Lunn
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Manning
| Matthews
|
Mayfield
| McNally
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
|
Muise
| Obhrai
| Penson
| Price
|
Ramsay
| Reynolds
| Ritz
| Scott
(Skeena)
|
Solberg
| Stinson
| St - Jacques
| Strahl
|
Thompson
(Charlotte)
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
| Williams – 60
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alarie
| Alcock
| Anderson
|
Assad
| Assadourian
| Augustine
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
|
Baker
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
|
Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellehumeur
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bertrand
|
Bevilacqua
| Bigras
| Blaikie
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
|
Brien
| Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
|
Byrne
| Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
|
Canuel
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
|
Chrétien
(Saint - Maurice)
| Clouthier
| Coderre
| Cohen
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
Dalphond - Guiral
| Davies
| de Savoye
| Debien
|
Desrochers
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
|
Discepola
| Dockrill
| Dromisky
| Drouin
|
Dubé
(Lévis)
| Duceppe
| Duhamel
| Dumas
|
Earle
| Easter
| Finestone
| Folco
|
Fontana
| Fry
| Gagliano
| Gagnon
|
Gallaway
| Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
| Godfrey
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Goodale
| Graham
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Guay
| Guimond
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Hubbard
| Ianno
|
Iftody
| Jackson
| Jennings
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Keyes
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
|
Kraft Sloan
| Laliberte
| Lalonde
| Lastewka
|
Laurin
| Lavigne
| Lebel
| Lee
|
Lefebvre
| Leung
| Lincoln
| Longfield
|
Loubier
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Mancini
| Manley
| Marceau
| Marchand
|
Marchi
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Massé
| McCormick
|
McDonough
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Ménard
| Mifflin
|
Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Murray
|
Myers
| Nault
| Normand
| Nystrom
|
O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
|
Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
| Perron
|
Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Picard
(Drummond)
|
Pickard
(Kent – Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Plamondon
| Pratt
|
Proctor
| Proud
| Provenzano
| Redman
|
Reed
| Richardson
| Robillard
| Robinson
|
Rock
| Saada
| Sauvageau
| Scott
(Fredericton)
|
Sekora
| Serré
| Shepherd
| Solomon
|
Speller
| St. Denis
| Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| St - Hilaire
| St - Julien
| Stoffer
|
Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
|
Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Vautour
| Volpe
|
Wappel
| Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| Wilfert
|
Wood
– 197
|
PAIRED
Members
Asselin
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
Eggleton
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| MacAulay
| Marleau
|
Mercier
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
| Rocheleau
| Venne
|
The Speaker: So that there is no confusion, we were
voting on the amendment and I declare the amendment defeated.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, I think you would
find consent that members who voted on the previous motion be
recorded as voting on the motion now before the House, with
Liberal members voting yes.
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Chuck Strahl: Mr. Speaker, Reformers present will
vote no to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, members of the Bloc
Quebecois will be voting in favour of the motion.
[English]
Mr. John Solomon: Mr. Speaker, members of the New
Democratic Party will vote no to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, the members of our party who are
present vote yea on this motion.
[English]
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Alarie
| Alcock
| Anderson
|
Assad
| Assadourian
| Augustine
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
|
Baker
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
|
Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellehumeur
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
|
Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Bigras
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Brien
| Brison
| Brown
|
Bryden
| Bulte
| Byrne
| Caccia
|
Calder
| Cannis
| Canuel
| Caplan
|
Carroll
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Chrétien
(Saint - Maurice)
| Clouthier
|
Coderre
| Cohen
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
|
Copps
| Cullen
| Dalphond - Guiral
| de Savoye
|
Debien
| Desrochers
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
|
Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
| Dromisky
|
Drouin
| Dubé
(Lévis)
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duceppe
|
Duhamel
| Dumas
| Easter
| Finestone
|
Folco
| Fontana
| Fry
| Gagliano
|
Gagnon
| Gallaway
| Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
|
Godfrey
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Goodale
| Graham
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Guay
| Guimond
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
|
Hubbard
| Ianno
| Iftody
| Jackson
|
Jennings
| Jones
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Keddy
(South Shore)
| Keyes
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
|
Kraft Sloan
| Lalonde
| Lastewka
| Laurin
|
Lavigne
| Lebel
| Lee
| Lefebvre
|
Leung
| Lincoln
| Longfield
| Loubier
|
MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Manley
| Marceau
| Marchand
| Marchi
|
Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Massé
| Matthews
| McCormick
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McTeague
|
McWhinney
| Ménard
| Mifflin
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Minna
| Mitchell
| Muise
| Murray
|
Myers
| Nault
| Normand
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
|
O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
|
Patry
| Peric
| Perron
| Peterson
|
Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Pickard
(Kent – Essex)
|
Pillitteri
| Plamondon
| Pratt
| Price
|
Proud
| Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
|
Richardson
| Robillard
| Rock
| Saada
|
Sauvageau
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
| Steckle
|
Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
| St - Hilaire
| St - Jacques
|
St - Julien
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
|
Thompson
(Charlotte)
| Torsney
| Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
|
Turp
| Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
|
Volpe
| Wappel
| Whelan
| Wilfert
|
Wood – 197
|
NAYS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Anders
| Bailey
|
Benoit
| Blaikie
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
| Chatters
|
Cummins
| Davies
| Dockrill
| Duncan
|
Earle
| Elley
| Epp
| Gilmour
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Gouk
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
|
Hanger
| Harris
| Hart
| Hill
(Macleod)
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hoeppner
| Jaffer
|
Johnston
| Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
| Konrad
| Laliberte
|
Lowther
| Lunn
| Mancini
| Manning
|
Mayfield
| McDonough
| McNally
| Mills
(Red Deer)
|
Morrison
| Nystrom
| Obhrai
| Penson
|
Proctor
| Ramsay
| Reynolds
| Ritz
|
Robinson
| Scott
(Skeena)
| Solberg
| Solomon
|
Stinson
| Stoffer
| Strahl
| Vautour
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
| Williams – 60
|
PAIRED
Members
Asselin
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
Eggleton
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| MacAulay
| Marleau
|
Mercier
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
| Rocheleau
| Venne
|
The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
(Amendments read the second time and concurred in)
SUSPENSION OF SITTING
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I think you might find consent that the House suspend
until the beginning of question period.
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(The sitting of the House was suspended at 1:48 p.m.)
1355
SITTING RESUMED
The House resumed at 1.56 p.m.
The Speaker: In the hopes of getting as many people in as
we possibly can for Statements by Members, we will begin now.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
PUBLIC SERVICE OF CANADA
Mr. Gurbax Singh Malhi (Bramalea—Gore—Malton, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, next week Canadians pay tribute to the tremendous
contribution of the federal Public Service of Canada.
With all the pain associated with downsizing in recent years, it
is important during Canada's post-deficit period that we openly
express the tremendous pride we feel for our public service.
We are at a crossroads in our history as the role and direction
of governments around the world are being re-evaluated. Our
public service is known as one of the best in the world. All
Canadians benefit from the many services it delivers, which makes
Canada the number one country in which to live.
Today I wish to thank our public servants for their dedicated
quality service and their commitment to finding better ways to
improve Canada.
* * *
PROSTATE CANCER RESEARCH
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
Sunday, June 21, is Father's Day. It is also the day for
Canada's first ever run for prostate cancer research in Victoria,
B.C.
Volunteers have been working for months to organize and promote
this event and have even managed to attract the sponsorship of
major corporations like CIBC, a company which also supports
breast cancer research.
Until recently very few people were talking about prostate
cancer even though one man in eight will be struck with the
disease during his lifetime. As a result prostate cancer
research has struggled to attract research funding, just
one-twentieth of the money going to breast cancer research and
less than one-hundredth of the money going to AIDS research.
It is time for governments to begin distributing their research
funding in a more equitable manner and to catch up with public
awareness about prostate cancer.
Congratulations to the Victoria, B.C., organizers of Canada's
first ever run for prostate cancer research. They have overcome
enormous obstacles to help raise awareness of a very serious
disease.
* * *
MICHAEL STARR
Mr. Ivan Grose (Oshawa, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it was my
privilege on Wednesday, June 3, to attend a dinner in Oshawa to
recognize the honourable Michael Starr.
Mike Starr was born in northern Ontario in 1910. He served as
mayor of Oshawa and his other public activities covered three
pages in his bio.
He became minister of labour in 1957 in the Diefenbaker
government, but, as a I say at home, even the most illustrious
among us sometimes has a shortcoming.
1400
Mike Starr served in a Tory government but his work in
anti-discrimination and fair labour laws would have qualified him
to be a Liberal, maybe even NDP. Now he is an ardent supporter
of the Reform Party which of course assures that his candidate in
Oshawa will continue to lose.
After the foregoing unpaid ads, I will expect applause from all
sides of the House.
* * *
SAEED BAGHBANI
Mr. John Cannis (Scarborough Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I rise today to congratulate a young constituent in my riding of
Scarborough Centre.
Saeed Baghbani is just 14 years old but he has already reached
the pinnacle in the Canadian karate world. In 1997 Saeed became
the Ontario karate champion and on May 6, 1998 Saeed went on to
win the gold medal in the Canadian national karate competition.
Saeed will now go on to represent Canada at the Pan American
Games which will be held in September 1998 in Argentina.
In addition to these impressive accomplishments, Saeed has been
selected as the best athlete for 1997-98 at Wexford Collegiate
Institute in Scarborough.
I want to congratulate Saeed on his terrific accomplishments and
wish him well with the upcoming games in September. This young
man represents the great things that our youth can achieve with
the proper support and encouragement. It is exactly the
environment that our government is striving to create for young
Canadians now and in the next millennium.
Congratulations, Saeed.
* * *
ICELAND
Mr. John Harvard (Charleswood—Assiniboine, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, on the occasion of Canada receiving a new ambassador
from Iceland, I want to share with members the strong ties that
exist between Canada and Iceland.
My Icelandic ancestors first came to the shores of what is now
Canada almost 1,000 years ago. Icelandic settlers immigrated to
Manitoba as early as 1875 and established the republic of new
Iceland on the shores of Lake Winnipeg. Their descendants have
made contributions in a wide range of fields, including
agriculture, medicine, literature, business and government. They
have helped build a better Canada.
Each year in August the Icelandic festival Islundingadaggurin is
held at Gimli, Manitoba. I invite all Canadians to Gimli to
share the experience.
We of Icelandic ancestry are proud Canadians who have not
forgotten our heritage.
I offer my best wishes and full support as our two countries
work together toward a closer and stronger relationship based on
a longstanding friendship and mutual respect.
The Speaker: Like the hon. member, we are all very happy
that the ambassador was able to be with us today.
* * *
BUSINESSLINC PROJECT
Ms. Aileen Carroll (Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, in the United States the unemployment rate is the lowest
in 28 years. However the White House recognizes that there are
marginalized constituencies and urban areas left behind in the
rush to meet the challenges of global competitiveness.
Last Friday, Vice-President Gore announced several new private
sector commitments to invest in low income communities. He
launched an administration initiative to encourage large
businesses to work with local small businesses in distressed
areas. The BusinessLINC project includes such high profile
partners as BankBoston, Prudential Insurance and Pfizer Corp.
As we in Canada struggle with similar realities of global
competitiveness, I ask if there are aspects of this community
reinvestment model which our large businesses such as bank merger
hopefuls might consider as part of their contract with the people
of Canada.
* * *
THE SENATE
Mr. Howard Hilstrom (Selkirk—Interlake, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the Reform Party has long campaigned for a Senate that
is equal in representation for all provinces, elected by the
people and effective in operations. Our appeals for Senate
reform seem to fall on deaf ears as the Liberals ignore the
obvious problems in the Senate and continue to make patronage
appointments.
Even the Prime Minister has begun to recognize the need for
change. On June 3 the Prime Minister said “When there will be
an elected Senate there will be an elected Senate for all
Canadians at the same time. If we want reform of the Senate we
need a complete one with equality and effectiveness”.
The Prime Minister has not yet seen the light. Canada deserves
an equal, elected and effective Senate. The Prime Minister knows
this but is unwilling to make that necessary first step of
recognizing the democratic will of the people who want to elect
their next senator.
* * *
SKYLINK AVIATION INC.
Ms. Shaughnessy Cohen (Windsor—St. Clair, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I want to pay tribute today to a Canadian company that
is playing a leadership role internationally through the
provision of rapid deployment evacuation air services.
1405
Skylink Aviation, based in Toronto with operations throughout
the world including a freight service in Windsor, has
demonstrated incredible courage moving people out of dangerous
circumstances.
It provided evacuation services on behalf of UNICEF and the
world food program in flood ravaged Somalia. On May 16 and 17,
Skylink flew into Jakarta, Indonesia and evacuated 420 Canadian
nationals. Skylink was the only cargo carrier to provide food and
medical supplies to Afghanistan while evacuating seriously ill
people and UN personnel.
Last Friday, Skylink undertook a most dangerous mission in
Eritrea on behalf of the United States state department. During
bombing and air fire resulting in the downing of an Ethiopian
plane, Skylink landed and safely evacuated 220 people out of
Eritrea to Frankfurt.
It is most gratifying to see a Canadian company demonstrating
leadership and courage in the protection of human lives
throughout the world.
* * *
[Translation]
S. MATTE HARDWARE STORE IN SAINT-TITE
Mr. Réjean Lefebvre (Champlain, BQ): Mr. Speaker, a page of
history will soon be turned in Saint-Tite, in the riding of
Champlain, when André Matte and his sister Odette will, for the
last time, close the door of the family hardware store that has
been part of that small community for 116 years.
The Mattes still have the basket and the snow-pusher that are
associated with their business in Saint-Tite. One can still find
many other items on the shelves of the family business that was
started by Siméon Matte, in 1882.
André and Odette loved their work and did not count their hours.
The S. Matte hardware store is closing not because of financial
problems, but because there is no one to take over the business.
André et Odette Matte, both in their 60s, will enjoy a
well-deserved retirement.
On behalf of all the residents of the Mékinac region and the
municipality of Saint-Tite, I thank them both. You will be sorely
missed.
* * *
[English]
THE JUDICIARY
Mr. Reed Elley (Nanaimo—Cowichan, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
political correctness and social engineering. These are just two
of the loathsome byproducts perpetuated by judicial activism.
Courts are no longer interpreting laws made by parliament but are
instead making them on behalf of governments, derelict in their
duty and void of responsibility.
The situation has resulted in the removal of parliament as the
supreme law making body and given us court rulings that reflect
the political agenda of precious few in this country.
This collective assault by the judiciary has meant an erosion of
the traditional values held by Canadians. It has also trampled
individual rights and freedoms while advancing collective rights
to the detriment—
The Speaker: My colleague, your statements are coming
very close to criticizing the judiciary as an institution. I
would cut it right there.
* * *
[Translation]
JUSTICE LOUIS-PHILIPPE PIGEON
Mr. Claude Drouin (Beauce, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, a rare event is
taking place this afternoon in Sainte-Foy, Quebec. The Quebec
Minister of Justice will unveil a commemorative plaque to honour
a former judge from the Supreme Court of Canada, Louis-Philippe
Pigeon.
You will remember that Justice Louis-Philippe Pigeon was a
brilliant lawyer and an eminent adviser to Premier Jean Lesage,
before being appointed to the Supreme Court of Canada and
eventually becoming chief justice.
The building that houses the Quebec Department of Justice will
now be called Louis-Philippe Pigeon. Let us hope that this will
be a source of inspiration for the current minister and his
successors in making decisions.
This is yet more proof that Quebec has a real and full place in
Canada.
* * *
[English]
DAVIS DAY
Mrs. Michelle Dockrill (Bras d'Or, NDP): Mr. Speaker, in
coal mining communities across Cape Breton Island today, schools
and businesses are closed and the streets are quiet.
Today is Davis Day commemorating the miner shot by coal company
police during the strike in 1925.
Today Cape Bretoners remember when their island was the engine
for the Dominion, when their blood and sweat fed the war machine
of the British Empire. Today working people remember how they
fought and died for things we now take for granted. Living
wages, pensions, protection from bosses who would rather shoot to
kill than bargain in good faith.
On Davis Day we remember our history. Cape Bretoners have
reason to be proud and Canadians have reason to be thankful.
* * *
[Translation]
SAGUENAY-LAC-SAINT-JEAN
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, today I
invite my colleagues to join me in celebrating this day of
festivities for all the people of the Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean
region.
As a start to regional pride week, the people of our fine corner
of the country want to share with you this moment of pleasure,
which bears witness to the vitality of our community. Our
people proudly raise the regional flag and with one voice sing
the song of the Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean region.
1410
I will share one of the verses with you:
Once long ago a country wild,
Oppressed by a conqueror
Of courage far beyond the strength
Of your unflinching majesty.
Th'emboldened hand of ancestors
Made you into their dwelling place
And did create with strokes so sure
Your vistas all magnificent.
Happy celebrations to all the people of the Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean
region.
* * *
INDIAN AFFAIRS
Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
Canadian government is actively involved in an important project
for aboriginal people, namely self-government.
I find it unfortunate, however, that the opposition parties are
calling on the government to rush such a complex issue through.
That is exactly what we do not want to do, for rushed solutions
to aboriginal issues might well compromise all the groundwork
that has been done so far.
[English]
We are trying to work together to find solutions that are
appropriate and in accordance with the wishes of those who will
have to live with the new reality.
[Translation]
To put it succinctly, respect for culture and ancestral
conditions involve, first and foremost, dialogue and concerted
efforts.
* * *
SENIOR CITIZENS MONTH
Mr. Jean Dubé (Madawaska—Restigouche, PC): Mr. Speaker, the month
of June has been designated Senior Citizens Month.
Seniors have contributed, and continue to contribute, to our
communities and our country. They deserve our admiration and
respect.
Yet the present government persists in launching an
unprecedented assault on our older citizens. Its Canada Pension
Plan reforms will reduce what Canadians will receive, while
increasing their contributions.
Recently, Bill C-36 would have meant lower Guaranteed Income
Supplement payments for needy seniors. We are still waiting to
see the strategy this same minister will come up with in his
reworking of the senior benefit project.
As we begin Senior Citizens Month, I wish to assure the senior
citizens of Canada that we will be proud to be their staunch
defenders. We in the Progressive Conservative Party will look
after their interests.
* * *
[English]
FIRST NATIONS LAND MANAGEMENT ACT
Mrs. Karen Kraft Sloan (York North, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the First Nations land management act which received first
reading today will allow 14 communities to opt out of the land
sections of the Indian Act.
I am honoured to represent the Chippewas of Georgina Island, one
of the 14 communities. Georgina Island voted overwhelmingly to
adopt their own land code. The speedy passage of this
legislation is crucial for First Nations to respond to economic
opportunities and create jobs. All members, men, women and
children of these First Nations communities will benefit.
I congratulate Chief McCue, the council and the community for
their vision and determination. I call on all members of both
houses to support Chief Bill McCue, Georgina Island and the other
13 First Nations communities.
* * *
[Translation]
GREAT BRITAIN
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Bloc Quebecois wishes to acknowledge the open mind of the
British minister responsible for relations between Canada and
Great Britain regarding Quebec's sovereignty.
Yesterday, in the Vancouver Sun, Ms. Liz Symons was reported as
saying that, if Quebec says yes to sovereignty, it will be very
important that a good relationship be maintained with Quebec.
Such an open-minded attitude on the part of a foreign government
on a political issue as sensitive as the future of Quebec is in
sharp contrast with the Canadian government ministers' pattern
of behaviour with their Plan B.
Clearly, this kind of open-mindedness was not brought back home
at the same time as the Canadian Constitution.
Liberal ministers must now understand that more and more states
will no doubt be as realistic and open-minded when Quebec
achieves full sovereignty.
* * *
[English]
NATIONAL CAPITAL COMMISSION
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker
the National Capital Commission is an unelected, unaccountable
body which administers properties and events in the nation's
capital. It has just announced a humdinger of a 50-year plan for
Canada's capital. The idea came from none other than the Prime
Minister himself.
The 50-year plan would involve demolishing at least two
churches, five heritage buildings and Ottawa's main public
library. Great vision. Some legacy. That amount of demolition
is like clear-cutting buildings.
Speaking of vision, the same people at the NCC who intend to
implement this plan have had to sell greenbelt area around Ottawa
to raise cash to pay for their daily operations.
Instead of such a controversial and big budget vision for our
nation's capital we need democracy in the National Capital
Commission.
1415
I call on the heritage minister to dismantle the current
unelected, unaccountable NCC board and replace it with elected
representatives, a commission accountable to the people who have
to live with their decisions. The beleaguered Canadian taxpayers
always has to foot the bill.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
HEALTH
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, this week as parliament comes to a close the government
may be thinking that it can finally close the file on hepatitis C
victims, but the hands of the Prime Minister like those of Lady
MacBeth are stained with his treatment of tainted blood victims.
“Out, damned spot” is what she said. “This file is closed”
is what he said. But the victims will not be so easily silenced.
Does the government really believe that it can get away with its
shameless treatment of the victims of tainted blood?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
it is important for the Leader of the Opposition to remember that
until the government came along, until the leadership of the
Prime Minister was in place, those who sought recompense for
tainted blood were turned away.
The one single answer from all governments was no. As a result
of the leadership of the Prime Minister's government some 22,000
who contracted hepatitis C through the blood system have now been
offered a reasonable recompense.
A process is now under way with other governments to determine
whether a consensus can be reached for dealing with all victims.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the government may think that the questioning of its
conduct on this issue will stop when question period stops, but
this summer these questions will grow louder and even more
insistent.
For each Liberal MP out there trying to wash the stains of the
government's record on this issue from the Prime Minister's
hands, there will be hundreds of victims telling the truth.
What are Liberal MPs supposed to say at the barbeques and the
town hall meetings when these victims ask “Why did you betray
our interests?”
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I should think that the leader of the Reform Party had trouble
enough on his own hands telling his own members what they will be
saying all summer when all of them refuse to support the Reform
Party.
We shall have enough to say. We shall point to the leadership
we have taken. We shall point to the steps that we have
undertaken to offer recompense to those who were injured as a
result of the fault of those responsible.
Over the coming weeks I assure the Leader of the Opposition that
governments will continue to work together to find a new
consensus to deal with the interest of all those who contracted
hepatitis C.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the government thinks it has a dozen ways to wash these
stains from its hands. The Prime Minister blames the provinces.
The Prime Minister compares the victims to cigarette addicts and
junkies using dirty needles. The Prime Minister uses party
discipline to force his own Liberal MPs to vote against the
victims.
However, there is only one way for the government to wash this
stain from its record and this is its last chance before
parliament rises. Will the government agree to compensate all
victims of hepatitis C just as Justice Krever recommended?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the government is very proud of the steps it has already taken to
deal with those who were injured through the fault of those who
were responsible from 1986 to 1990. The government's efforts
continue.
1420
As I have said to the hon. member, officials will continue to
meet and governments will work away to find a new consensus. Let
us let that process continue. Let us let it complete a new
consensus to deal with the interests of all those who contracted
hepatitis C through the blood system.
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, on the issue
of hepatitis C assistance the excuses have failed. The public
says that it should look after every victim. Finally the victims
are mounting this campaign for the long, hot summer.
Could someone on the government side stand to explain why the
Prime Minister on the issue of hepatitis C is as stubborn as a
mule?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the member should know that it is not just the federal government
that is at the table. There are other governments that have
their own positions.
Reform Party members are great champions of constituents. They
used to say let us stand and ask a question that was inspired by
a constituent.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health has the floor.
Hon. Allan Rock: I understand that Ralph Klein is a
constituent of the Leader of the Opposition. Why will the Leader
of the Opposition not do what Ralph Klein says? He is content
with the process in place at the moment. Why will he not support
his constituent on this?
* * *
THE ECONOMY
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
Canadian dollar is trading at historic lows today. Instead of
propping up the dollar with higher interest rates, why will the
government not take some steps to strengthen the fundamentals of
the economy?
Why is the finance minister refusing to bring in a package that
will pay down debt over a period of time and give Canadians the
lower taxes they need and deserve? Why will he not do it?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member knows that the Minister of Finance will
not comment on the value of currency.
However, if one wants to talk about the fundamentals of the
Canadian economy, we have the strongest growth we have had in
decades, in fact the strongest growth of any of the G-7
countries. Over the course of the last four years the country
has created over 1,200,000 jobs. At the present time our
unemployment rate is down to 8.4% from 11.5%. Our inflation is
low. Our productivity is up. The country is leading the G-7.
Those are our fundamentals.
* * *
[Translation]
ATLANTIC GROUNDFISH STRATEGY
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
tension is running very high in the maritimes, the Magdalen
Islands and the Gaspé.
Again today, people are vocalizing their dissatisfaction as the
Atlantic groundfish strategy comes to an end.
Since we have been telling the Minister of Human Resources
Development for months now that things are going badly and that
a tragedy is in the offing, how is it that we are now one day
from the end of the session and are still being told that
officials are working hard, that the matter is being looked at
closely, when nothing concrete has yet been done for the victims
of these federal government decisions?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I have said on several
occasions in the House, this is an issue that concerns us
enormously.
We have met with people from the communities and we know that
many of them are finding the situation extremely difficult.
Some people are living with terrible uncertainty. That is why
the issue must be handled very carefully.
I have spoken, through my officials, with representatives from
each of the provinces. We will, I hope, be in a position to
make an announcement shortly.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
rather than speaking through his officials, as the member puts
it, he should be going to see the people on the Magdalen
Islands. Perhaps they will teach him something.
Will the minister at least give us an undertaking by tomorrow,
when the session is expected to end, that he will either put in
place a substantial program to replace TAGS, or extend the
program for as long as it takes to get a new program up and
running?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I see that once again the Bloc
Quebecois is calling for passive measures, income support, and
still wants to keep people in a state of dependency. Two or
three years down the road, it will be the same impossible
situation all over again.
We are looking to the future, and what we are interested in is a
genuine restructuring, if that is what is required.
1425
We may want to pursue the idea of licence buybacks. We want to
introduce measures to help people re-enter the labour market. We
want economic development. We are interested in active
measures, not in keeping people dependent, which is what the
members opposite always seem to want.
Mr. Yvan Bernier (Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, the anger and impatience of the victims in the
fishery crisis mount daily in Newfoundland, the Magdalen
Islands, the Gaspé, all over.
All of this is happening because this government, which is
responsible for the mess in the fisheries, has yet to announce
substantial and fair measures to follow the TAGS program.
Does the minister, who is trying to cover his inaction with a
flood of fine words, realize the explosiveness of the social
situation in the maritimes and eastern Quebec, because the
people—
The Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources
Development.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I said to his leader and to
the entire House a few minutes ago, the situation of the people
in Atlantic Canada at the moment concerns us enormously. We are
very much aware of the fact that these people are facing
considerable uncertainty.
Our government acted responsibly in setting up the TAGS program
at the time, and we have consulted widely. We have met with
people from the fishing industry, with fisher and community
representatives, and I hope we will soon be able to announce the
programs we will implement.
Mr. Yvan Bernier (Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, ordinary measures and ordinary insensitivity as
well.
Does the minister realize that at stake here is not just
families' survival, but the preservation of the future of these
maritime communities and their way of life? Does he realize
that, if he does not help these people, they will have no choice
but to leave?
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I can assure you that what we
want to do in partnership with the provinces—which I hope will
work with us on this—is to create jobs in these communities so
that people will have something to do other than wait for the
fish to return.
These Atlantic communities must learn to live with a much
reduced fishing industry, a situation which unfortunately is
unlikely to change any time soon. This is why we have to make
structural changes to the economy.
* * *
HEALTH
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, as children do,
the Minister of Health is going through the no stage.
According to him, there is no problem at health protection, no
problems with toxic toys and no problems with blood products and
prescription drugs. An independent report, however, points to
an organization in crisis.
When will the minister act like an adult, stop playing with the
health of Canadians and acknowledge that not everything is rosy
at the health protection branch?
[English]
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
perhaps when the New Democratic Party grows up it will learn to
read. When it does learn to read it will take into account the
things that have been published which demonstrate that the health
protection branch is doing its job and doing it well.
The leader of the New Democratic Party should know that the
science advisory board which I appointed some months ago, chaired
by the distinguished Dr. Roberta Bondar and including 15 or 20
outstanding Canadian scientists, is now doing an audit of the
science capacity of Health Canada. We do our job well. We will
soon have independent—
The Speaker: The hon. leader of the New Democratic Party.
1430
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, no
wonder there is no strategy or deadline to deal with the crisis.
The minister continues to refuse to recognize that there is a
crisis. Sleepwalking through the problem is what one Health
Canada official called it today.
Scientists in the minister's own department today revealed that
drug companies are influencing approvals of questionable safety.
What will it take for the minister to admit that there is a
crisis in his own department?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the NDP is a little unpredictable. One day the drug approval
process takes too long and today it is going too quickly.
The only crisis in this House is the crisis over in that corner.
They cannot seem to attract attention to themselves with facts,
so they make them up.
One week they tell us that children will die because of
phthalates in toys and then they are proven wrong. The next week
they tell us that there is a crisis with albumin and they are
proven wrong. The next week it is breast implants and they are
proven wrong. They ought to do their homework before they come
to this House.
* * *
ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, today we obtained further proof that the RCMP does
not have the resources it needs to fight organized crime. Despite
existing problems, the solicitor general plans to cut $74.1
million from the RCMP federal policing services, whose main
objective is to fight organized crime.
The U.S. state department has already said it considers Canada
to be one of the best places in the world for criminals to
launder money.
How can the solicitor general justify cutting the RCMP organized
crime budget by 13% when Canada is already a haven for money
laundering?
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member has his numbers wrong and, as far as
money laundering is concerned, we are circulating a discussion
paper right now with the intention of bringing in legislation
this fall to do just that.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, here is a number. Three times in the past 20 months
solicitors general of this government have promised tough
legislation for money laundering but none have been delivered.
The solicitor general knows full well that Bill C-95 in the last
parliament did not include mandatory reporting requirements for
cross-country currency movement or suspicious financial
transactions.
How long do we have to wait before the government puts some
teeth into the laws? Will the solicitor general stop the
rhetoric and the heel dragging and introduce legislation to give
police officers the tools they need to fight organized crime and
money laundering?
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, when we took office in 1993 there were a lot of
outstanding issues that were being asked of us by the police. We
have delivered on most of them. We still have a few left and we
are delivering on them now.
* * *
CANADIAN ARMED FORCES
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday Ann Margaret Dickey told her story for all to hear and
said that she wanted her complaint to be investigated.
In January the NIS told Ann Margaret Dickey that the
investigation was suspended. Yesterday in the House the Prime
Minister said that the investigation was ongoing. In Halifax
yesterday the National Investigation Service confirmed that the
investigation is finished. However, the NIS in Ottawa said it is
ongoing.
Who is telling the truth?
Mr. John Richardson (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the National
Investigation Service, which was established in September 1997,
has been working on Mrs. Dickey's case since September 17, 1997.
We will not know the facts, nor will we ask questions about the
investigation, until the Canadian forces provost marshal says
that the investigation is complete.
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
happened to view a videotape of the NIS informing Ms. Dickey that
the investigation was suspended. In that particular tape the
military investigators told her that the case would be suspended
unless she provided or came up with supportive evidence of her
allegations. They asked her to do it.
What kind of investigative unit would ask the victim or the
complainant to go out and gather her own evidence in order to
bring her attacker to trial?
Mr. John Richardson (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the individual in
question has made some very serious and complicated allegations.
Serious and complicated allegations must be investigated
seriously and thoroughly.
1435
All of the facts, which neither the member opposite nor the
media nor I have, must be gathered and investigated. The
Canadian forces have an excellent impartial mechanism in place to
do just that.
* * *
[Translation]
ATLANTIC GROUNDFISH STRATEGY
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, regarding the
issue of fisheries and the Atlantic groundfish strategy, the
Minister of Human Resources Development accused us earlier of
wanting to keep fishers in a state of dependency because we are
asking the government to help them.
Such comments from the minister are worrisome, because the last
time he discussed the issue, he decided to exclude 60% of all
unemployed people from the program.
Are we to expect that, under the pretext of implementing active
measures, the minister will deny 60% of workers in the fishing
industry any government assistance, as he did with the
unemployed?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Absolutely not, Mr. Speaker. As I said
repeatedly, I hope to soon be in a position to make an
announcement.
Consultations with the five provincial governments were
successful. Yesterday, the Bloc Quebecois—which was misinformed
about the situation in Quebec City—said that the Quebec
government was not even in a position to know what was going on.
This is not true.
Perhaps there is a problem in Quebec City between the Department
of Intergovernmental Affairs, which centralizes everything, and
the Department of Fisheries, but meetings were also held at that
level. I hope to soon be in a position to make an announcement.
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, while we are
imploring the minister to help fishers in eastern Canada, who
have been adversely affected by the decisions of Liberal
governments in Ottawa in the fishery sector, how can the
Minister of Human Resources Development provide a meaningless
reply when, in fact, the Atlantic region is on the verge of a
crisis?
The minister must go there, listen to fishers and find solutions
himself, instead of relying on his public servants in Ottawa.
That is the reality.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the situation is extremely
serious. We know these communities, and we are aware of the
situation with the fisheries.
The problem is that fish stocks are diminishing in the Atlantic
because of overfishing by previous generations.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew: I can tell you one thing: we will set
up the necessary programs to help our fellow citizens in these
communities make a decent living—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Dear colleagues, I would ask you to please listen
to the replies.
* * *
[English]
CANADIAN ARMED FORCES
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it has
been nearly three years since the investigation into Ms. Dickey's
complaint started. It has been almost three years since the
complaint was filed and her superiors have brushed it off again
and again.
After three years, finally a statement was taken. Then they told
her “But you have to come up with the evidence to have the
investigation carry on”. They told her to get her own evidence.
I would ask the parliamentary secretary, why did it take
so long to start the investigation and—
The Speaker: The hon. parliamentary secretary.
Mr. John Richardson (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that hon.
members opposite want to discuss this case. However, we are
doing the responsible thing and respecting the integrity of the
investigation. I would urge the member to do likewise.
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is
clear that the parliamentary secretary is not going to talk about
this case. We do not know whether the investigation actually is
going on or not. We have conflicting evidence.
A couple of days ago an ombudsman was appointed, who supposedly
would be able to deal with this situation, but the ombudsman
himself said that he relies on the minister to gain access to
information through the ranks.
If this is the way the ranks deal with information, I wonder how
this ombudsman appointment is going to help fix things up in any
way.
1440
Mr. John Richardson (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the National
Investigation Service is an independent organization. It was
established in response to the review done by Chief Justice
Dickson of the military justice system. It was recommended by
the Somalia inquiry as well.
The head of the NIS, the Canadian forces provost marshal, does
not answer to anybody in the chain of command. In addition to a
large staff of its own, she has unfettered access to civilian
police services if she requires their assistance.
* * *
[Translation]
AIR TRANSPORTATION
Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, claiming a strategy of two national carriers in Canada
and rejecting Air Canada's bid for several new international air
routes, the federal government is jeopardizing the development
of the Montreal airport.
My question is for the Minister of Transport. Could the
minister explain how he reached the conclusion that Montreal's
development had to be reined in to promote that of Canadian?
[English]
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, the hon. member should really take a look at the
press release I issued last week. He will clearly see that Air
Canada received permission to operate a daily service from
Toronto to Hong Kong. It received authority to have five
code-sharing arrangements of its choice to anywhere within the
Star Alliance. It also got assurance that we would look at the
specific question of T'aipei later this year and that we would
review the entire file within 12 months.
Now, tell me that Air Canada did not get anything out of it.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, what will it take for the Minister of Transport to stop
limiting the development of new air routes out of Montreal in
order to ensure the development of Canadian?
Does the
government have to hear from the entire Montreal business
community before the federal ministers from Quebec get moving?
[English]
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is from the province of Quebec. I
would invite him to go to Dorval airport to see the level of
increase in traffic; not just domestic traffic, but international
traffic. Open Skies, which Air Canada did not want, was brought
in by this government and it has benefited Montreal as well as
all the other cities.
* * *
CANDU REACTORS
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, on
Monday of this week the Minister of International Trade told this
House that his government had little to do with the $1.5 billion
contract of Candu reactors and the loan guarantee.
Now we learn that there has been a letter released that quotes
David Dodge, the former deputy minister of finance, as saying
that there were negotiations between finance and EDC for months
to put this deal together.
Will the minister now admit that the cabinet knew full well the
extent of this deal and ultimately had to sign it before it could
be approved?
Hon. Sergio Marchi (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the only contradiction is in the member's
mind.
Earlier this week the allegation made by the NDP was that there
was no financial due diligence done by the department. I
responded by saying that was false because the financial specific
due diligence was done on the contract by AECL and on the
financing by EDC. At no time did I ever mention that the
Government of Canada ultimately did not make the decision.
After that process by those two crown corporations, and based on
their recommendations, of course the Government of Canada
ultimately made the decision.
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
that is not what the House understood on Monday. It understood
that this government did not have much involvement with this
deal, that it was basically EDC that put this deal together.
EDC official Rod Giles said that the loan had to be approved by
cabinet before it could go through because it was a Canada
account loan.
Will this minister now admit that cabinet had full knowledge of
this deal before it went through?
Hon. Sergio Marchi (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am surprised that our trade critic does
not understand the process. The fact is that no one on this side
has ever said that the Government of Canada was not involved.
What we said to the allegations was that financial due diligence
was done. It was done by EDC on financing and the contract
specifics were done by AECL. Then, after their work, of course
the cabinet made the final determination, as it did in terms of
giving a broad spectrum.
I do not know why the members are surprised. That is the way
things have always been done.
* * *
1445
[Translation]
AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is
for the Minister of Industry.
The GM plant in Boisbriand is in trouble. It is the only car
manufacturing plant in Quebec. The jobs of thousands of workers
are at stake. Yesterday, the Minister of Industry said he was
prepared to work with GM to save the Boisbriand plant.
In order to reassure plant workers, is the minister prepared to
tell us what specific action he plans to take to help save the
Boisbriand plant?
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
thank the member for her question, because it is a very
important one.
The report on the competitiveness of the automotive industry
released yesterday indicates that this sector is very
competitive here in Canada. We have made the necessary
investments. We have taken economic decisions to ensure that
our sector is competitive. GM has the capacity to do very well—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Durham.
* * *
[English]
YEAR 2000
Mr. Alex Shepherd (Durham, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my question
is for the Minister of Finance. The millennium bug is
threatening to bring havoc to our small and medium size business
communities with the result of job losses.
What is the minister prepared to do to come to the assistance of
our small and medium size businesses to ensure that they and the
jobs they create will be there in the year 2000?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we are prepared to take immediate action. On behalf of
the Minister of Industry and the President of the Treasury Board
I am pleased to announce that retroactive to last January 1 and
until June 30, 1999 all small and medium size businesses in
Canada will be entitled to take a 100% capital cost allowance on
all purchases up to $50,000 in hardware, software and information
technology.
[Translation]
Retroactive to January 1, SMBs gearing up for the millennium bug
will be allowed to deduct 100% of their purchases in this area
in the first year.
[English]
I would like to thank the industry community, the members of
this House—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Skeena.
* * *
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Mike Scott (Skeena, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, we thought
softball was played only in baseball diamonds.
Yesterday we made the tiniest bit of progress with the minister
of Indian affairs when she finally admitted that British Columbia
belongs to all the people of British Columbia. The native summit
in British Columbia representing 3.5% of the population is
claiming the entire province.
How does the minister reconcile these two completely opposite
points of view so fundamental to B.C.'s future?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, there are so many points I
would like to make. In the context of the question, it sounds
like the member is assuming it applies only to some people, that
British Columbia applies only to some of its residents. It is so
obvious it applies to all. The member is so wrong when he says
and tries to assume that first nations feel they are laying claim
to all of British Columbia.
Chief Victor Jim from Wet'suwet'en said: “I think this is going
to be good for the territory. It is going to be good for the
economy and in the long run I think it will bring the aboriginal
and non-aboriginal people together”. He says—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Skeena.
Mr. Mike Scott (Skeena, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, just because
people say it is so does not make it so. The native summit
claims all of British Columbia. The minister knows this position
cannot possibly prevail. She knows this is impossible.
When will this minister and this government admit their
irresponsible actions and words over the last few years have
raised expectations to impossible levels? When will they admit
publicly that these demands cannot be met?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I absolutely deny what the
hon. member is saying. They just do not get it.
1450
The chief also said: “We were here before the white man came.
The sharing is going to have to continue, but we are going to
have a more focused working relationship”.
The people of British Columbia know that this can work. Nine
out of ten support settling land claims with compensation.
Seventy-two per cent say it will not harm the economy, in fact it
will improve it.
The people of British Columbia appreciate the approach we are
taking. They know this is the right track and it has been proven
in other parts of the country—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Qu'Appelle.
* * *
BANKS
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Finance.
The TD bank and the CIBC wish to merge. Yet despite that,
yesterday Charles Baillie, CEO and chairman of the TD bank, said
he did not think that the proposed mergers are “necessarily good
public policy or good for Canadians”.
I wonder whether the Minister of Finance agrees with the
president of the TD bank.
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it is our intention to monitor all the mergers, Bank of
Montreal, Royal, TD, CIBC, the Bloc and the Reform Party, all
summer. We will check them all out.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr. Speaker, if
the minister can monitor the merger of the Reform and the Bloc
Quebecois, that is okay, but what I want is a decision on the
other mergers.
I have been travelling the country extensively in the last
couple of months. An increasing number of Canadians are in
opposition to the mergers.
There is growing opposition in his Liberal government backbench
committee against the mergers as well. I wonder whether the
minister might consider over the summer the idea of having a vote
in parliament in the fall at the appropriate time, better yet a
free vote, so we can express the will of our constituents on the
wisdom or lack thereof of these proposed mergers.
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I can assure the member there will be full public
hearings and plenty of opportunity for debate. I do intend to
concentrate and think about it this summer.
Hull, a small restaurant, the moon in the sky, the member from
Rimouski, the member for Wild Rose, a tourtiere, a bottle of
wine, she talks about flags, he talks about prisons—it's going
to be wonderful.
* * *
NATURAL RESOURCES
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
Minister of Natural Resources knows that the B.C. forest industry
suffered losses of $192 million in 1997. This was due in large
part to strikes, market shutdowns and the impact of the
Canada-U.S. softwood lumber agreement.
Recent U.S. customs rulings have restricted imports of Canadian
lumber even further. What actions have the Minister of Natural
Resources and the government taken to resolve the impact of these
restrictions on Canadian lumber and the impact on the B.C.
economy?
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Wascana, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
hon. gentleman knows that the major portion of forest management
is within the jurisdiction of the province of British Columbia.
But within federal jurisdiction we have been taking a number of
initiatives. For example, the Minister for International Trade
continues to work on the issue of Canadian access into the U.S.
market four our softwood lumber, including the most recent
customs ruling by the United States.
We have also met with the Government of British Columbia to
organize an effort to ensure that Canadian access to European
markets for our lumber supplies will not be impaired by certain
consumer action—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Fundy—Royal.
* * *
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
government owned Port Radium mine employed native Deline workers,
over half of whom died from work related cancer, carrying uranium
ore like sacks of flour.
In order to enhance the trust the minister tried to build
yesterday, will she ensure that no government communications in
the future ever question the effect of uranium mining on the
health of the Dene people?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am glad to report to the
House that yesterday I, along with my colleagues the Secretary of
State for Children and Youth, the Minister of Natural Resources
and the Minister of Health, met with a delegation of the Dene
from Deline. We talked about the historical impacts of uranium
from the Port Radium mine.
1455
One of the things we identified as being important was to get
the facts straight, to share together and find a means to ensure
that the issues we are dealing with are common and well
understood. That would be part of the go forward strategy that
we talked about yesterday.
* * *
[Translation]
CALGARY DECLARATION
Ms. Raymonde Folco (Laval West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, yesterday
Nova Scotia became the last province, with the exception of
Quebec, to adopt the Calgary declaration.
Can the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs tells us what the
level of support of the Calgary declaration was across Canada,
and what the message is that this sends to all Quebeckers?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, with the exception of one Bloc Quebecois-commissioned
survey in which it directed the questions, all opinion polls
held and compiled in Quebec, and all consultations and votes
held in the nine provinces and two territories, show a very
strong support for the principles of the Calgary declaration.
Behind that very firm support lies a profound desire to live
together, eyes resolutely fixed on the future, and Quebeckers
and other Canadians are reaching out their hands to each other
and saying no to division, no to separation.
* * *
[English]
VETERANS
Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
over one week has gone by since I revealed the 43 year government
cover-up of Hong Kong veteran claim rights against Japan.
The Minister of Foreign Affairs also knows these veterans were
forced into slave labour camps. This morning for the second time
in this session of parliament, the foreign affairs committee
voted unanimously and recommended slave labour recompense for
Canada's Hong Kong veterans.
With proof of a cover-up and a second unanimous recommendation
from his own committee, will the minister commit to settle these
affairs and these claims—
The Speaker: The hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the
Minister of Foreign Affairs.
Mr. Ted McWhinney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the minister has asked
for the full facts on events that occurred 40 years ago. When we
get the facts, we will draw the legal consequences.
We have not got access to all the legal documents. The
relations with Switzerland involve a country not at war with
Japan. We are dealing with a peace treaty. The minister has
been in touch with the chair of the veterans organizations and he
has undertaken that we will look for a solution. I can assure
the House of this.
* * *
FISHERIES
Mr. John Cummins (Delta—South Richmond, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, a company owned by friends of the minister of fisheries
was charged with failing to provide critical catch information.
Those charges were dropped days after the minister went fishing
with the company's vice-president. The minister says the charges
were dropped because the department had an agreement to get the
data through a third party. His department now says no such
agreement exists.
How does the minister explain this contradiction?
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the company in question the hon. member
has been pursuing so vigorously for such a long time is a company
that employed last year I believe 1,200 British Columbians in the
fishing industry.
It is impossible for the minister of fisheries to avoid the
personnel of companies that employ fishermen and others. That is
my job.
With respect to the question of charges on the issue of
information, that should be addressed to the Minister of Justice,
whose department oversees the crown prosecutors. They press or
do not press charges.
It has nothing to do with me. The hon. member should know
this—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Portneuf.
* * *
[Translation]
BC MINE IN BLACK LAKE
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is
for the Minister of Human Resources Development.
In order to help finance a pre-retirement program for the former
BC mine workers of Black Lake, Minister Louise Harel is prepared
to do her part and the mine is prepared to do the same. The
only contribution lacking is one from the federal government.
Does the minister commit to also doing his part, to joining
with the Government of Quebec and the mine management in drawing
up an agreement for these former workers?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): I see that the Government of Quebec's local
branch plant here in the House is doing a good job of passing
its commitments on to us.
I have had the opportunity on several occasions to discuss this
matter with Mrs. Harel, and I can state that we were the first
government to act in this matter, which we have been following
very closely, by making close to $3 million available to the
former BC mine workers, specifically in order to provide them
with as much assistance as possible in terms of training and
active measures.
1500
I am totally confident that we shall still be able to do more
for the BC mine workers, in order to help them back into the
work force and to improve their situation.
* * *
[English]
FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Minister for International Trade.
In responding to a question earlier about his answer to me on
Monday, he claimed that he had never denied that the Government
of Canada had any responsibility in the signing of the financial
arrangements for the sale of the Candu reactor to China, yet he
did exactly that. If we check the record, he said that it only
had to do with the Export Development Corporation and AECL.
If he is changing his mind now and saying that the Government of
Canada is actually responsible, then why was there not the
environmental review that should have been in place? The
minister cannot have it both ways. Either you were responsible
and there is a review, or you were not responsible and you are
telling us something different here today.
Hon. Sergio Marchi (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the only member who is changing his mind
is the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona. The fact of the
matter is that on Monday he alleged that there was no financial
review, that there was no process. We said then and we repeat
again that that is wrong.
He said it should have been the Department of Foreign Affairs
and International Trade or the Department of Finance. They do not
do that particular specific due diligence. That is the job of
the two crown corporations. No one had ever alleged that the
Government of Canada at the end of the day did not go forward
with that project. So the hon. member cannot have it both ways.
* * *
FISHERIES
Mr. Bill Matthews (Burin—St. George's, PC): Mr. Speaker,
the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans has closed the last
remaining Atlantic salmon fishery on the Labrador coast. The
closure of this fishery is the result of a serious decline in
Atlantic salmon returning to our rivers to spawn.
While our own salmon fishery is shut down, just nine miles off
our coast the French islands of St. Pierre et Miquelon are still
carrying on a commercial salmon fishery. Yet these French
islands have no salmon rivers. They are not contributing to the
resource.
Why are our own fishermen forced to welfare while the French
fishermen harvest Atlantic salmon? And while he is on his feet—
The Speaker: The hon. minister of fisheries.
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is correct that the last
commercial salmon fishery has been closed down. The recreational
fishery is still continuing in Atlantic Canada and there are many
excellent opportunities for people who wish to take advantage of
that.
With reference to the French islands of St. Pierre et Miquelon,
there is approximately 500 fish taken there. It is approximately
3% of the take in the northern area of Labrador which was closed.
We will now be discussing with the French. Now that we have
closed our commercial fishery we will be discussing with the
French, and also with the Danes with respect to Greenland because
we want to make sure that high seas—
The Speaker: My colleagues, I do not know when parliament
is going to rise, but today is a special day for us and it is a
very special day for our pages. I often use the words “call in
the members”. Now I would like to call in the pages.
* * *
1505
[Translation]
HOUSE OF COMMONS PAGES
The Speaker: Dear pages, to follow parliamentary
proceedings from the floor of the House of Commons is an honour
bestowed to very few. However, this opportunity was provided to
you in this busy year during which another chapter of our
country's history was written.
Your time with us is coming to an end, but I am sure you will
bring wonderful memories back with you, as one cannot be
unaffected by all the rich history, beauty and traditions of our
Parliament.
Whether we are pages, clerks or members of Parliament, it is a
real privilege to serve our democratic institutions, and you
have lived up to the challenge.
[English]
There is no doubt that you will leave the House more
knowledgeable about our parliamentary way of life, but I hope
that you have also gained a sense of pride in our democratic
institutions and all the men and women who serve them.
Through one another you have probably learned a great deal about
Canada, our Canada, and all its wonderful diversity and promise
that pages have come to represent.
May you take what you have learned and combine it with all of
your talent, spirit and yes, dedication to help us all to build
an even better Canada in the next century.
On behalf of all of my colleagues here, thank you for your
excellent work and for the loyalty and professionalism that you
have shown in the past year. I and my colleagues offer you our
very best wishes for great success in the future.
Thank you for serving us so well.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
* * *
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
I understand you indicated that the House may not be sitting. I
expect as House leader that I will be here next week and that is
the good news. The bad news is that it will be all by myself.
I would like the government House leader to tell us which day
will be the last day and will they be presenting any more
legislation that we can bicker about.
The Speaker: Before I give the floor to my esteemed
colleagues on both sides, I just forgot for a second. If this is
our last day and I do not know that it is, but if it is, in any
case there will be a reception in my chambers at about four
o'clock. I invite all hon. members to please join me and the
pages so that we can take some refreshment together.
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to respond to the
question of the hon. opposition House leader.
The good news is that regardless of whether we sit or not, I will
be here next week and will gladly keep company with the hon.
member, if that is his wish.
1510
This afternoon, as already announced yesterday, the House will
consider the Parliament of Canada Act amendments. I believe that
is Bill C-47.
Tomorrow we hope to complete Bill S-2, the transportation safety
bill at all stages including committee of the whole and
subsequently third reading. Then we will proceed to Bill C-38
respecting the Tuktut park. I understand one other bill is under
discussion between hon. members. If there is consent we could
add it tomorrow but I will not add anything else at the present
time unless there is that consent.
If everything that we can expect to happen has happened, I would
then call a motion which is now standing on notice in my name
which would make some minor adjustments to House procedure, some
adjustments that would not be necessary had last Monday night not
occurred. That motion when adopted would bring to a conclusion
the spring portion of this session.
Mr. Peter MacKay: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order
arising out of question period. There was some discrepancy about
the figures I put before the House and they were questioned by
the solicitor general. I would like to table the main estimates
so the solicitor general might have an opportunity—
The Speaker: I believe they are already there, but does
the member have the consent of the House?
Some hon. members: No.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
PARLIAMENT OF CANADA ACT
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.) moved that Bill C-47, an act to amend the
Parliament of Canada Act, the Members of Parliament Retiring
Allowances Act and the Salaries Act, be read the second time and
referred to committee of the whole.
He said: Mr. Speaker, before I begin my comments I would like
to ask the Chair to notify me after 10 minutes of speaking
because I want to share my time with colleagues on all sides of
the House.
I am pleased to rise today to speak to Bill C-47, an act to
amend the Parliament of Canada Act, which I had the honour of
introducing earlier. The bill responds to recommendations of the
Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs which was
tabled on Wednesday, June 3 in response to the Blais commission
report on MPs compensation.
[Translation]
As the commission so aptly put it:
An MP is someone who serves the public, and therefore must not
expect their pay to be a windfall. In fact, no one expects that.
By the same token, no one should be forced to experience
financial hardship after winning an election.
This means that compensation and benefits must be reasonable,
realistic given what is expected from MPs in practical terms,
and in line with general trends in society—or at least not lag
too far behind. However, we are seriously lagging in this
respect.
1515
[English]
I would like to commend the chair of the committee, the hon.
member for Peterborough, and the members of that committee for
their report. The report is a reasonable response to a complex
and even more sensitive issue. Interestingly, it seems like
everyone in the media finds this issue to be more important than
many other areas of government policy.
Mr. Rob Anders: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order
to seek the unanimous consent of the House for the second reading
to be discharged and this bill, an act to amend the Parliament of
Canada Act, the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act and
the Salaries Act, to be withdrawn as it does not reflect the
priorities of Canadians.
The Speaker: That is not a point of order, but does the
hon. member have unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: No.
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Speaker, it had been up to now a
non-partisan response that addresses concern expressed by all
parties. This bill is an example of parliament coming together
to act on what is a sensitive issue.
Here are some of the key provisions of the bill. It is
straightforward. It simply implements the committee's report
which was adopted by the House.
[Translation]
There are two key elements to the bill. First, an increase of
2% to the salaries of MPs and senators will come into effect on
January 1, 1998 and will be payable annually on January 1 for
the duration of this parliament.
This increase would apply to the sessional allowance and to all
other allowances. It would replace the cost of living
adjustment, which would have been approximately 1% this year.
In other words, this amount is not in addition to it, but
replaces it.
[English]
A 2% increase is modest and it is also reasonable in the context
of increases in the private sector, parliamentarians in other
countries and the public service. I would like to speak to that
in committee of the whole if some members intend to raise it
later.
Private sector wage settlements were 2.2% in February 1998 and
recent public service settlements have averaged over 2%. MPs
have not had a remuneration increase other than a partial cost of
living adjustment since 1980, and since 1991 nothing at all.
In 1980 the sessional indemnity of a member of the House was
120% of the average salary of a high school principal. In 1996
it was 75% of the salary of a high school principal. I see some
former educators who are members of the House and I am sure they
know all about it.
In 1997 a Canadian MP ranked 9th in a survey of remuneration,
below Japan, the United States, France, Germany, the U.K.,
Australia, Norway, New Zealand and several other countries. The
Blais commission report noted that a Canadian parliamentarian's
salary in October 1997 was 37% that of a U.S. congressman. If we
include the tax free provision it is in the order of 58%.
Everyone knows that American legislators get a whole number of
things in addition.
[Translation]
The second element of this bill provides that members who chose
to not participate in the pension plan in the last parliament
may join within the next 90 days.
[English]
For those members who choose not to opt back in there would be a
supplementary severance allowance and I believe that this is
fair.
Members of the House who retire at 55 years of age or over and
who are not entitled to a pension would receive an additional one
month of remuneration for every year of service up to a maximum
of 12 months.
Members who are under 55 and retire would receive the
supplementary severance when they turn 55, just like MPs who
participate in the pension would receive it at age 55. I also
believe that this is fair.
This provision is also very similar to the severance package that
exists in the Ontario Legislature.
1520
The bill also provides for a small increase allowance for the
Speaker of the other place and the Speaker pro tempore in the
other place. This was recommendation by the Blais commission
report.
[Translation]
We should not always be guided solely by what the media have to
say. However, you will permit me to read a few quotes.
La Presse said “The average income of MPs is an income many
professions, middle managers in the private sector, senior
public officials and unionized employees in certain specialized
jobs would find ridiculous”.
I will read other quotes.
[English]
From the Toronto Star: “It is the right time for a modest
increase in parliamentary salaries. A 2% a year increase over
four years is reasonable”.
[Translation]
Finally, from La Presse again, and I quote “In the interest of
democracy, MPs' salaries must be increased”.
[English]
Last July the Blais commission was appointed. It made its
report which was tabled last January and which was referred to a
committee. The committee reported on June 3. The House voted on
the report earlier and now the bill is before us. I commend it to
all members.
Mr. Rob Anders: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I seek the unanimous consent of the House to have a recorded
division.
The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
I do apologize to some extent for some of the things being said
here.
This is one of the few times in the House that members will find
me dedicating a speech. I have done so on a number of occasions
where I thought that an individual or individuals have deserved
such a speech to be dedicated to them. I therefore dedicate this
speech to my colleagues in the Reform Party who have had the
intestinal fortitude to stand up for what they believe in.
It is those principled individuals who took it on themselves to
opt out of the gold plated MP pension plan who got the
alternative pension placed before the House today. Tomorrow who
knows, perhaps we will have convinced all members of the House
that this alternative, which could be turned into an RRSP type
plan, will be the only plan in the House.
To be sure that we have a clear position on the issue of pay and
pensions, I want to go through this and make it absolutely clear
where we are coming from.
One of the great difficulties we have with the legislation
placed before us is the omnibus characteristics of the bill.
Having read this final version before me for the first time last
night, I expressed great concern for the complexities that exist
within it. Let me give some examples.
Within the bill are issues such as numerous adjustments for the
Senate which are not part of the MP pay and benefits issues. This
bill contains issues about tax free allowances, about issues of
pay increases to MPs and a substantial issue to some of us here
on this side of the House of an alternative pension plan in terms
of RRSP to the three parties that have opted out of the gold
plated pension plan. All these issues are contained in this
omnibus bill. It is quite inappropriate that we deal with it all
in one.
All these and more in one bill cover three other acts. It makes
it extremely difficult for Canadians to determine what MPs are
for and what they are against. To make it very clear I am going
to do the best I can to express our position on each and every
issue, while at the same time knowing full well that the Reform
Party may be outvoted on those issues we are against in any
event.
I want to talk for a moment about the incidental expense
allowance. It is necessary to give Canadians the confidence that
all pay and allowances paid to members of parliament are up front
and clearly visible at all times.
1525
All Canadian payroll income is taxable. Reform Party MPs feel
no exception should be made for federal members of parliament. We
do not support any proposal that will continue to hide taxable
income. MPs currently receive a non-taxable allowance of
$21,400. There is not reason whatsoever that this should not be
grossed up and included in the annual salary of $64,800 and
taxed. There is no problem at all. It amounts to the same
amount of money but then it becomes clearly visible for all to
see.
I want to talk a bit about MP salaries. The Blais commission
report recommended no increase at this time or at least until
such time as RCMP, military and civil service receive increases.
Although MPs have not received a pay raise since 1991, we feel
there is still no great rush for this. We agreed with the Blais
commission report that raises are not necessary now and we have
no particular desire to change our minds.
Higher priorities, such as an alternative MP pension plan, have
more merit and would positively affect all Canadians through
lower taxpayer paid pension costs. Therefore we cannot support a
proposal with a pay increase; $64,800 plus a non-taxable
incidental expense allowance of $21,400 is not considered a low
income.
I will spend a bit of time on this because, as most people know
in Canada, it is a very near and dear issue to us. It must be
crystal clear that Reform MPs did not ask to have this option put
into this bill. We do not support the inclusion of this clause.
It is ironic that such a clause ends up in legislation. We know
there are three parties in this House that did opt out of the
plan. It is also ironic that no reporters have been after the
other parties to find out who is opting in. It seems they have
been asking us. I will address that in a few minutes. I am not
aware of any Reformers in this caucus to date who have indicated
precisely to me that they are in. They have time to think about
that.
It has been reported that Reform is opting in. Such comments
have been made by groups like the national citizens coalition. I
wonder about things like bias, prejudice, poor reporting or other
political machines trying to take the heat off themselves.
I hope to influence all my colleagues about the current MP
pension plan. I have had a fair bit of experience in designing
pension plans. This is truly the most convoluted, inequitable,
unreasonable plan of its kind in North America. Within the plan
exists separate benefits and rules for 263 of 301 MPs elected
prior to 1993. It also includes rules for MPs elected after
1993. There are rules for people who have opted out, for members
who leave the House of Commons after six years who are younger
than 55, and members who have been elected twice but who have
broken service periods. The plan for 263 people is so convoluted
it escapes any rational actuarial assessment.
This year alone $584,000 had to go into this plan to keep it
viable. The contributions MPs make, excluding those who have
opted out, amounts to 9% of payroll. Yet the government
contributes a whopping 37.5%. Meanwhile those 38 remaining
Reform MPs who have opted out receive no pension whatsoever and
to date have saved the Canadian taxpayers $3.5 million, for which
I applaud my colleagues. All these situations clearly reflect
that government is continuing to allow such convoluted conditions
to exist. Any actuary in this country would agree that it cannot
continue.
We constantly ask ourselves why the media and a few other
Canadians out there want Reformers to expose some form of
weakness and not back in rather than go to those who are already
in asking why they will not opt out. Reform MPs have been
negotiating for an alternative pension plan for a long time. This
has been a long term plan and is in line with our party's
longstanding policy.
1530
I am going to quote that policy to the House:
The Reform Party supports the provision of pensions for MPs only
if those pensions are no more generous than private sector norms
and meet all requirements for a registered plan under the Income
Tax Act.
That is a longstanding policy, but it is so rational that most
private sector employers say “What else is there?”
It is now apparent that perhaps other MPs in this House reject
the position of not abandoning the rich MP pension plan for an
alternative RRSP type payout. I do not think that is because
they think it is right, but because an alternative pension plan
would establish a reasonable, responsible precedent for all MPs.
The Canadian public would expect MPs then to enroll in the new,
more reasonable, alternative plan.
Let us just see for a moment what Reformers established in this
omnibus bill as far as an alternative pension. It may be called
a severance pay, but in effect it amounts to approximately $6,067
per year given to a member to purchase an RRSP. This is well
within the tax limits of the Income Tax Act and is fairly common
in private industry.
If my colleagues and I had not opted out of the MP pension plan
there would have been no changes in 1994 which resulted in a 20%
decrease in contributions. If we do not establish this beachhead
for an alternative, then there will be no goal posts established
so that we can encourage those in the old plan to feel
comfortable with an eventual RRSP alternative.
Let me compare this alternative plan to a similar plan recently
designed for members of the legislature in British Columbia. In
the plan which is before us today is a deferred payment amount
approximately equal to $6,067 per year, which is the employer's
share of an RRSP in effect, which our members would have to
purchase. I provided a calculation in my notes, but I will not
go through it here.
Some of this could be taxable to members of this House. The
employee, or the member in this case, would match this if they
wanted the maximum allowable limit in an RRSP. So we would have
an employer's portion and an employee's portion.
This may be called a severance, but it is clearly the
alternative pension plan we have insisted upon since 1989.
I congratulate my colleagues in obtaining what they were looking
for in the first place. I also congratulate them for having the
stamina to stay with it.
All of this is within the Income Tax Act.
Let us look for a moment at what B.C. MLAs receive. The B.C.
MLAs adopted a citizens panel report in 1997. That report
eliminated the gold plated legislative pension plan for MLAs. The
employer, the B.C. government, matches 9% of the MLA's salary,
which equates to approximately $7,300 per annum. This is based
on a salary of $69,900. That is approximately $1,000 per year
more than the alternative plan in Bill C-47.
Is it any wonder why we are committed to retroactively changing
the MP pension plan when we become government? I do not think
so. In the meantime, 38 Reform MPs have a difficult option.
When all is considered, this bill will likely pass because we 59
members in opposition cannot carry the day. We hope this
alternative pension plan will encourage all members of this House
to seriously look at eliminating such flawed legislation as the
MP pension and rejuvenate the confidence of the Canadian people
by providing a simple payment for RRSPs which will ultimately
provide a monthly income upon retirement of approximately $500
after serving two terms versus $2,200 indexed.
That is all I have to say regarding the pension. I think I
speak for my colleagues when I say that our commitment, our
resolution to try to change the system does not stop here today,
it continues.
I would like to talk a bit about Senate remuneration. The Blais
commission report recommended changes to Senate salaries. The
Reform Party will have no part whatsoever in accommodating the
Senate until such time as that institution takes responsibility
for itself through Senate elections.
1535
I cannot understand why it is necessary for the House of Commons
to initiate legislation that provides any remuneration to that
organization when, in fact, that organization can initiate its
own through a Senate bill.
If the Senate were operating properly and Canadians were
convinced of its effectiveness, perhaps one way out of the
difficulties politicians have in legislating increases for
themselves would be to have the Senate review the House of
Commons and the House of Commons to review the Senate. However,
that is not to be and that is for another day.
Finally and overall, the 1998 pay pension benefits issue is
still inequitable. It still lacks credibility with taxpayers and
is not supported by Reform Party members.
If these undesirable changes are implemented by virtue of a
majority vote, Reform MPs, like all of my colleagues who would
vote against this, must accept the consequences.
I think it is reprehensible, quite frankly, that MPs in the
first place must vote on increases for themselves. A better
process must be put in place.
We came to Ottawa. We opted out of the gold plated pension
plan. Most of the 1993 Reform MPs, by the way, have donated 10%
of their salaries at one time or another. I only have to look to
my left to my colleague from Edmonton North to say that we all
understand the difficulties some have had.
Have we been successful? I do not know. Things have not
changed yet, but we are still trying to develop alternative
pension plans, trying to make do, trying to get the system
changed.
I think one day my colleagues will look at this pension plan and
say “Yes, there are other ways of doing it”. Until then we
will work toward something better.
Finally, I want to address one other issue that has come up
recently. Some have asked why there is no standing vote in this
House. From my perspective, Canadians will have the Reform
Party's position from exactly what I said here today.
Votes on division are commonplace in this institution. The
billions of dollars passed on division on Tuesday night are but
one example of how that system works. It is not perfect and
perhaps it needs change. But then again, I am not government.
The very important point is that our position is on the record
for all to see. I thank those who have listened and those who
will understand what these dedicated people behind me have tried
to do over the years.
[Translation]
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to address Bill C-47 and to explain the Bloc Quebecois'
position on this legislation.
My comments will deal with five issues related to the bill,
which, as pointed out in the summary, primarily seeks to
increase the salaries and allowances payable to
parliamentarians, to permit members of the House of Commons to
be again subject to the Members of Parliament Retiring
Allowances Act, and to provide for the payment of a
supplementary severance allowance to members of the House of
Commons to whom the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances
Act does not apply.
The Bloc Quebecois is opposed to this bill. First, we oppose the
2% salary increase.
Let me be clear. The Bloc feels that the increase is justified.
There is no doubt in our minds that members of Parliament
deserve this 2% raise. Considering the quality of their work,
not to mention the number of hours worked, we are absolutely
convinced that the increase can be justified.
There is also no doubt in our minds that this raise would help
attract quality candidates to this place. Therefore, why do we
oppose this 2% increase? There are three basic reasons.
1540
First of all, we were aware of the pay situation before we came
here. We knew what the salary was, what the allowances were,
what expenditures would be reimbursed, and so on.
We accepted those conditions because we were coming here in a
very specific context. We knew we were not here for very long.
Thus we do not feel all that much concerned about changes to the
working conditions of MPs because, as you know, we hope to no
longer be MPs because we will have our sovereign Quebec.
We do, however, plan to be here for as long as the people of
Quebec wants us to be here defending them, and as long as
sovereignty has not been achieved.
The main thing that forces us to refuse and oppose the 2% pay
increase, however, is the situation in Quebec. Quebec is
experiencing a great many budget cuts at this time. There are
many restrictions of all kinds, and the premier of Quebec has
called upon everyone to make sacrifices in order to attain zero
deficit. He has even asked government employees to accept a 6%
salary cut. We therefore feel that we must show solidarity with
the people of Quebec and we cannot support this call for a
salary increase.
As for the severance allowance, that is an amendment that
slipped past us during the 35th parliament. The bill will
correct this.
Thanks to the reforms made to the MPs pension plan in the last
parliament, we have in a way created a new category of member,
those who would be eligible for pension when no longer MPs, who
have six or more years of service, but the bill we passed in
1994 calls for them not to collect pensions until age 55. That
was an important change made to the act in 1994.
As all of us are aware, moreover, MPs are not entitled to
employment insurance. Let us consider the example of a former
MP, a 40 year-old father of three, who is eligible for pension at
age 55. He has no other job.
So he will receive a six months' severance package. I think it
is perfectly legitimate, in most cases, for employers to agree
with their employees who are leaving their jobs and give them
conditions like this one, that is, severance pay to enable the
member to find another job and to try to earn a living, since he
still has a number of good years ahead of him.
A major change in this bill is the right to rejoin the pension
fund. Of course we agree that our colleagues may do so. The
surprising part is that anyone was allowed to leave it at all.
As I have seen throughout my career, whenever a pension is
provided for a group of workers, no one can join or leave the
pension fund whenever it suits them.
We came here. We knew the conditions. We knew there was a
group pension fund. I think the first mistake we made was to
allow people to leave the pension plan. That was a mistake, in
my opinion.
1545
It is usual for everyone to have the same pension plan and for
all MPs to be on the same footing in terms of the plan. I
consider that basic justice.
Since in the future it will no longer be possible to leave the
plan, we are making an excellent decision today in order to
avoid having undue political pressure force people to leave the
pension fund.
The bill provides a special severance allowance for those not
contributing to the pension plan and not taking advantage of the
90 days they have to decide whether or not to rejoin the pension
plan.
Once again, in this country we are very democratic. We do not
force our colleagues who opted out of the pension fund in 1994
to opt back in; we give them 90 days to think about it.
Those who decide not to contribute to our pension plan—but it is
very clear that this will be their last chance—will receive, at
age 55, an amount more or less equivalent to the portion of the
premium paid by the government to the MPs' pension fund.
As everyone knows, members pay half and the government pays the
other half. The portion not paid by the government, if the
member is not contributing to the pension fund, will be paid to
him or her as a premium at age 55. There are provisions for
death or other exceptions, of course but, in principle, payment
is made when the member turns 55. What will be the amount of
this premium? It will be the equivalent of one month's salary
for every year worked, up to a maximum of 12 years.
The fifth point I wish to make, and the second reason for our
opposition to this bill, involves the Senate. This bill also
contains provisions applying to the Senate. The Bloc Quebecois'
opposition to the part of the bill dealing with the Senate is
not intended in any way as a comment on the nature or the
quality of the work done by those who sit in the Senate.
Our opposition is based not on this but on the logic peculiar to
our political party. We do not want a Senate. We want to see
it abolished. It would therefore be difficult to endorse any
measure that would improve working conditions for a group of
individuals that one sees no need for. Once again, this is not
a judgment of the work they do in the other chamber.
That sums up briefly what we think are the main features of
interest in the bill, as well as the two reasons we will be
voting against it, those being the 2% salary increase and the
provisions for the other chamber.
[English]
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
I will begin by saying that I do not think there is ever a good
time or comfortable time in which to deal with the kind of
legislation we are dealing with this afternoon.
I have had the opportunity to be here for a number of years and
I have seen these kinds of issues dealt with before. I know some
of the pitfalls that present themselves to members of parliament
on the occasion of this kind of legislation.
Surely it is an opportunity for us to be overly critical of each
other. It is an opportunity for the public to be overly critical
of us. It is an opportunity for various forms of temptation,
various forms of self-righteousness and grandstanding of one kind
or another.
1550
We all need to resist the temptation for the sake of parliament,
for the sake of our relationships with each other and for the
sake of not bringing into disrepute the reputation of this place
or of members of parliament.
It is also an opportunity for people to misrepresent, sometimes
deliberately and sometimes unintentionally, what is going on when
we come to these kinds of deliberations.
Some of my colleagues in the Reform Party have experienced that
over the last while. As we have come to this point in time many
unfair things have been said about them and many things have been
alleged about them in the media. I say welcome to the club. I
have had all kinds of things alleged about me over the years with
respect to this issue that have been very unfair, as have members
of parliament in general.
I can only think of the way in which it is often said that
members of parliament after only six years are entitled to a full
pension. Not so. After six years we are only entitled to
six-fifteenths times 75% of the average of the best five years. I
agree that is a pension, but oftentimes if we look in the media
we get the impression that members get a full pension when they
leave after six years. I do not know how many times I have had
to correct that perception about the MP pension plan.
Another perception is the tendency on the part of those who are
critical of the plan to add up everything a member would receive
from now, at whatever particular age, to age 75 and give the
impression that somehow an MP would receive this in the form of
one lump sum or one cheque upon leaving the House of Commons
instead of annual instalments of about $48,000 in the case of a
full pension to age 75 and beyond if the member lives beyond 75.
Sometimes there is a great deal of manipulation of facts to
create an impression that is much more negative than the actual
facts demand. If people want to be critics of the current
pension, I would submit that there are things to be said about it
which are true. I am only objecting to the things that are said
about it which are untrue.
Some of my colleagues have had the experience of seeing how
easily this sort of thing is picked up and run with on the part
of people whose only agenda, it seems, is to make members of
parliament or politicians look bad.
There is no good time to do this. On the other hand, given the
way the system works now, there is no other way to do it except
for members of parliament to deal with it themselves.
That brings me to the question of process. The NDP has
advocated in the House for years and years that this process be
taken out of the hands of members of parliament. The Reform
Party House leader said this in his speech. I want him to know
that we have been saying this for a long time. We agree but it
has not been done.
Until it is done we will be in the dilemma in which we find
ourselves today. Either nothing will be done or we will do
things that need to be done. Some of us will agree with some of
it and others will disagree with some of it, but all of us will
feel a bit uncomfortable. I think we should be lifted out of
this situation.
It is not enough to have statutory reviews of MPs pay and
benefits after every election. That is not an independent
review. I am not saying the members who were appointed were not
independent minded, but it is within the political class that it
is done.
Former members of parliament are appointed to review the pay of
members of parliament. I do not think that goes far enough in
terms of establishing both independence and some form of binding
recommendations that could come forward from the independent
commission that would be set up if the NDP were to have its way.
1555
Why? We can set up all the independent commissions we like, but
if in the end members of parliament have to decide to implement
or not to implement the independently arrived at recommendations
we are right back to where we started from.
What has often happened in the past when people have looked at
MPs' pay and benefits is that they come back with a
recommendation that we be paid a heck of a lot more than we are
being paid. Then members of parliament have to say, because of
the sensitivity of the matter, we cannot accept that
recommendation and we are right back to where we started from.
If we are to have some kind of independent review and
recommendation we need to have what goes with it, a mechanism for
automatic legislation or implementation of those recommendations
without it having to come to the floor of the House of Commons
and without our being put in the position that we are in today
and every other day that we have to deal with this kind of
legislation. That has been the longstanding recommendation of
the New Democratic Party.
With respect to the details of what we have before us, we are
not one of those parties which has members who have opted out of
the pension plan. Therefore we have no self-interest either
individually or collectively in either the opting in provision or
in the supplementary severance. We support this because we see
it as an opportunity to address the situation that some of the
members who have opted out of the plan find themselves in, a
situation which they can either address through accessing the
supplementary severance or, if they so choose, opting back into
the plan. That is up to individual members and we leave it at
that. It did not affect any of our members in any way
whatsoever.
The opposition House leader kept referring to the three parties
that had opted out of the plan. I do not think that is quite an
accurate way to describe it. No parties opted out of the plan.
Every party in the House has people in the plan and three parties
in the House have individual members outside the plan. The
Reform Party has more than any other party. The Liberals and the
Bloc have a few. It is not really a question of parties; it is
a question of individuals in parties.
I would like to indicate what we are not saying when we indicate
our concern about the raise. I would be moved to defend the
raise against certain kinds of criticisms. I have been here
before when I once opposed a raise. I found myself eventually
defending it because I was offended by the kinds of criticisms
offered about parliament, about members of parliament and about
my colleagues who had supported the raise.
I found myself at that time ending up defending the raise
because of the unreasonable and vicious kinds of things that were
said about members of parliament who decided they needed a raise
after a long period of time in which there had been none, the
situation we find ourselves in today.
I want to make clear that our concern about the raise had more
to do with timing than with substance. We felt, and I think this
was reflected to some degree in the Blais report, that if we were
to get a raise of 2% we would have preferred that it happen after
everyone else in the public sector had received a raise in that
range.
That is not an option that is before us today. We have before
us the option of dealing with the legislation today. We do not
choose when these things will be dealt with. However that was
one of the concerns we had and we do have a reasonable hope that
others in the public sector, as the government House leader said,
will get a raise in that range.
In any event, these are some of the things I wanted to put on
the record. We think it should be dealt with in an independent
and binding way.
1600
We regret that is somehow not able to happen, but it is
certainly something that we will continue to work for in this
parliament and in subsequent parliaments.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to take part in this debate and pleased
as well to gain further insight from the hon. member for
Winnipeg—Transcona.
Hon. members such as he who have been in this place a long time
have different perspectives on this issue from a new member of
parliament. That is the case with many of the members in the
Progressive Conservative Party. We are here for the first time, a
year as of June 2.
I think there is some important insight to be gained from
members such as he who have indicated yes on the 2% raise in
terms of merit, in terms of whether it is deserved. The hon.
member has said he would defend that position. I would agree
with that and the Progressive Conservative Party takes that
stance.
However, it is an issue of timing. With respect to that, the
Progressive Conservative Party has taken the stance that given
the sustained high level of unemployment in this country, given
the average salary of the average Canadian, we do not feel this
is the time to implement such a raise.
With respect to the other element of Bill C-47, the element that
would pertain mainly to the official opposition, the Reform
Party, once again when one looks at merit those members should be
treated no different from any other member of Parliament. In
essence we feel they should be welcome back into the pension plan
in whatever form they choose, whether the severance type of
arrangement or the regular pension plan.
However, it is important that sanctimony be left at the door and
that it should also be left out of the press releases. We all
need to be a little prudent as to what we say not only here on
the floor but at home in our constituencies. When I return to
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough I am sure I am going to receive
questions about this. Every individual member is going to be
forced to have a gut check. They are going to be forced to check
their conscience and decide what they choose to do if this raise
is passed through the House today.
When one looks at the bigger picture as to what MPs receive in
terms of remuneration and the work done here, one has to take a
wider view and see what salaries are paid in other professions,
doctors, lawyers, professional athletes, professional
entertainers and heads of corporations. One has to make a
comparison in those areas when looking at this increase. I am
sure there is going to be a great deal of scrutiny about it in
the coming days.
There is certainly an element of sensitivity about Bill C-47,
but the discussion that has taken place here today and the
opportunity that members and parties have had to put their
perspective forward is an important one.
Once again I indicate that we are not supporting the legislation
because we cannot pick and choose elements of the bill we want to
see implemented and what elements we do not want to see
implemented. We find ourselves in the position of not supporting
it wholeheartedly.
The political angling and the reality of what is going to occur
is important. I hope a lesson was learned in all this. A lesson
in process may have been absorbed. There has been a great deal
of criticism about a perceived gold plated pension by the Reform
Party and a great deal of political hay was made out of that
characterization over the years. Reformers now find themselves
in the official opposition status. They have moved forward in
their political aspirations.
1605
I could not help but notice in the remarks of the House leader
of the Reform Party the reference to when they achieve
government. Pipe dream is the word that comes to mind. If the
Leader of the Opposition chooses to take clothing allowances,
housing allowances like Stornoway, a car allowance, all those
things, while in opposition, one can only shudder to think what
would happen if he were ever to achieve his aspirations of the
prime minister's office.
I am not going to engage in partisan remarks but that is on the
record observation. Bill C-47 has been brought to the floor and
I guess the timing is suspect with but a day remaining. It was a
government priority to bring this bill forward and that has to be
questioned in terms of why we would bring this to the House of
Commons on the day before it closes.
We choose not to support the legislation and yet we are going to
be subject to criticism too because there is no opting out
provision. The hypocrisy is there for all to see. We can choose
not to support it yet we will be the beneficiaries of it. Those
will be the glaring remarks in the editorials.
There is no option. It is a piece of legislation that allows us
no option but to take the raise. There should not be different
levels of members of parliament, those who are receiving a
certain set pay compared to what other members of parliament
receive.
There has also been reference made to what individuals may
choose to do with that 2% increase accrued over the life of this
parliament. I do not think here in the House of Commons or in
the media is the place to talk about what individual members
choose to do with it, whether they choose to put a percentage of
their salary into a certain charity or name those charities.
That is an individual choice every member is going to be forced
to make.
The opportunity is there for Canadians to judge for themselves
as they will and to choose how to react to this and ultimately
come the general election they will choose to make this a large
issue or a small issue. In the grand scheme of things, it is not
a major issue for most Canadians. More important issues will
come to the floor, one would hope, on the national agenda and
then we can earn our pay, so to speak. Canadians can then judge
for themselves what members have earned their pay. Those results
will no doubt be seen at the time of the next general election.
The timing of this is suspect and it also comes in very close
proximity to Bill C-37 which would also raise the salaries of
judges. I am sure there is an inevitable comparison that will be
made again between the decision of this government to bring
forward those types of legislative initiatives so close to the
end of this parliament.
On behalf of the Conservative Party all I can say is that we did
not ask for it and we did not anticipate it. The members of this
party did not run with the expectation that we would be receiving
an increased salary. We also did not feel it was a priority at
this time.
The Deputy Speaker: It being 4.11 p.m., pursuant to order
made on Wednesday, June 10, 1998, it is my duty to interrupt the
proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose
of the second reading stage of the bill now before the House.
1610
Pursuant to order made Wednesday, June 10, 1998 the motion is
deemed carried on division. Accordingly, this bill stands
referred to committee of the whole.
(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the House
went into committee thereon, Mr. Milliken in the chair)
The Chairman: Order, please. House in committee of the
whole on Bill C-47, an act to amend the Parliament of Canada Act,
the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act and the
Salaries Act.
(Clauses 1 to 5 agreed to)
(On clause 6)
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
clause 6, section 9, refers to the interest which would be
payable or will accrue on the amount of the supplementary
severance allowance from the time a person becomes entitled to it
until the time it is paid.
I would ask the minister to clarify what interest rate would be
accruing on that entitlement.
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, initially the clause in question
was drafted somewhat differently. It was not clear as to whether
there was a provision for interest should a person for instance
who has opted of the pension system leave at age 51. The person
would then draw the amount not at 51 but at 55, the same as a
member of parliament who is contributing to the pension system
would unless the person is grandfathered into the former system
and receive benefits at age 55. Both systems are parallel.
The difference is the following. A person who receives a pension
obviously receives it for some time, unless of course they pass
on before they start receiving the benefits. In receiving the
benefits there are adjustment periodically. Arguably that is a
form of interest.
In the case of someone who receives the benefit of the
supplementary severance it was silent in the bill. For greater
certainty the words that are there were added and the reference
is “shall accrue on the amount of the supplementary severance
allowance from the time the person becomes entitled to it”, in
other words the day the person ceases to be an MP, “to the time
it is paid”.
How does one establish the rate? I am told that this is the
normal form, what is referred to as the crown rate. It is the
same rate applied if someone has money otherwise owing to him or
her from the crown.
For example, it could be an income tax reimbursement that is
overdue or some other similar benefit. It is not a higher rate
of interest, it is almost a nominal one, but one which exists in
law at the present time and recognized in the form in which it is
in the bill.
1615
Mr. Ted White: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister
could enlighten the House as to what the present crown rate
would be. Is he aware of that figure at the moment?
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Chairman, the rate is adjusted
periodically, but the crown rate I am told, as of very recently,
possibly even the one which applies today, is 5%. It is the same
rate payable by government for other deferred payments. So
whatever the rate is for a deferred payment, as I indicated
earlier, it would be the same. At the present time it is in the
area of 5%.
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan—Coquihalla, Ref.): Mr. Chairman,
I am wondering if the minister could talk a bit more about the
severance allowance.
There are 301 members of the House and it appears that the
remuneration of many members is different. It is not a level
playing field. It is unequal. Having the severance allowance,
or a golden handshake, makes the situation even worse because
different members of the House of Commons would receive different
compensation.
I would ask the minister when he anticipates the government will
equalize all remuneration for every member of the House.
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Chairman, when we discuss this
whole area of a level playing field, it is rather interesting for
members of parliament because our functions are different.
It depends on the area of the country in which we pay income
tax, for instance, or other kinds of charges on our salaries.
There could be at least 12 different kinds across the country.
Each one of us generally pays taxes in the province in which we
live. I think very few members choose to pay income taxes in
Ontario if they are not from Ontario, although they could, I
suppose, if they had two residences, one here and one in their
riding.
The point I am making is that there is an uneven playing field
at the best of times.
I am told that when the committee was studying the report that
was one of the problems involved in the so-called gross up of the
income of members of parliament. The Blais commission had
arrived at a formula that worked something like this. It assumed
a rate of gross up to arrive at the same net benefit as people
living in Ontario with two or three dependants and so on.
Of course, if a member lives in a province which has a higher
tax rate than Ontario, for example, B.C., Newfoundland or Quebec,
they would have to gross up the salary a larger amount to arrive
at the same net benefit.
Furthermore, to illustrate a few complications in that regard,
some members of parliament already make a different salary than
others. Some of us in this Chamber represent very large rural
ridings. I think there are 10 or 12 members in that category in
the Northwest Territories and I believe there is one in British
Columbia. I see my colleague across the way nodding. He is one
of them. Those members already make a larger salary. If one was
to calculate a grossing up amount, that person would
automatically end up with less salary if the law of averages was
used.
That brought the following proposition to the minds of many. We
would have had a gross up which, at least in appearance, would
have been a salary increase, with many members of parliament
going home with a substantial decrease in income.
I am told that was one of the reasons the committee that looked
into this issue decided that was not a particularly wise way of
doing it and abandoned that plan.
1620
As I said previously, we still have a number of people with
different incomes. Right now, for instance, I believe that I pay
something like $10,000 a year in premiums for the MP pension
plan. There are those out there who write articles and
publications and so on, who insinuate, by their silence and
sometimes otherwise, that this pension is free. But my income is
$10,000 a year less than some other members of this House because
I opted into the plan. Naturally, the benefit comes later
because I get a pension. The reverse is also true.
Those are the various salaries that exist now. To say that we
have a condition whereby there will be various levels of income,
yes that is true. It is going to be true with several different
kinds of retirement plans. But that is true at the moment, even
before the passage of this bill.
Mr. Jim Hart: Mr. Chairman, we are almost there, but not
quite. We talked about tax rates in different provinces.
However, I am specifically referring to clause 6, the severance
allowance which is being offered. I am talking about the
equality offered there in comparison to the MP pension plan
currently in place.
If my memory serves me correctly, regardless of whether a person
works for Eaton's or the Bay, in Nova Scotia, in Calgary or
wherever in this country, they participate in the same pension
plan. It is an actuarial requirement. It is actuarially
required that every employee participate in the same plan. But in
the House of Commons there is this inequality that we have
designed for ourselves, where we have different members paying
different amounts and receiving different benefits. It is a very
small plan. There are only 301 members.
I would like to put it to the minister again. To make it an
actuarially sound plan, would it not be better to bring in a plan
by which all members of parliament would receive a pension plan
that is comparable to the private sector? At the same time as
being comparable, it would level the playing field for all
members of the House of Commons so that we would not have the
situation where we have 301 members and probably five or six
different categories of pension benefits available to us.
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Chairman, if anyone thinks that we
could have a pension plan which would be the same for every MP
under any kind of scheme, that is unachievable.
By definition, the tenure here is different for everybody. We
are obviously subject to the democratic rule. Some members are
elected at 45 and finish at 55. We have a colleague in this
Chamber who was elected for his first term at the age of 69 and
is now in his second term. We had a colleague who resigned in
1993 when he was 82. We have a colleague in this House right now
who was elected at age 22 or 23.
There is a whole variety of these things at any time. This is
not a conventional employer, nor are we conventional employees.
That is the difference.
Comparable to the private sector is an interesting thought.
What about executives in the private sector?
Some have referred to the present plan for members of parliament
as being generous and gold plated. However, I do not believe it
is.
I read from page 139 of the Blais commission report which
states:
The pension plan for Members of Parliament, while appearing to be
generous, is not necessarily out of line with public and private
sector plans that recognize the impact of mid-career hire aspects
of the career path of their senior employees.
That is from the Blais commission report.
The other thing about the plan is that the Chief Actuary of
Canada, in and around 1990 when there was controversy about the
plan, published a report in which he talked about assuming an
equal employer-employee contribution. That does not exist in any
public sector plan because we do not vest the money in a
particular fund. We do now for the new contributions to CPP that
this government brought forward, but that is a new beginning in
that regard. Other plans are not like that.
1625
Some would argue that the superannuation plan has a second
component which has that feature. But generally it does not.
There is an unfunded liability because the premiums are not
invested in various schemes that generate interest dividends and
other forms of income. That is true of public sector plans.
In 1990 I believe it was, the chief actuary said that he
believed this plan was just as solvable as one in the private
sector.
Should everyone be in the plan? Yes. That is my position.
When people opted out of the plan two years ago, I remember
making passionate speeches in this House to my opponents telling
them they should stay in. That is what I said at the time and I
have not changed my mind.
If anyone thinks today that I will accuse them of being
hypocritical if they decide to opt into the pension plan, no, I
will not. I refuse to participate in that dialogue. I have to
be consistent with what I said.
If I said four years ago that it was wrong to opt out of the
pension plan, surely I have to say now that it is right to opt
in. Otherwise it would not be very logical and I would be
quickly reminded of that not only by people opposite in this
House, but also by the media and by the public generally.
I do not think it is wrong. I think it is right. I said so
before and I stand by what I said. I am the first to say that
what is offered to MPs overall, as the Blais commission report
recognized, is not onerous.
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Ref.): Mr.
Chairman, dealing with clause 6 of Bill C-47, I was wondering
about subclause (6) which deals with the eligibility for this new
supplementary severance allowance.
My understanding is that under the existing Members of
Parliament Retiring Allowances Act when an MP reaches the age of
55 they qualify for the MP pension. In fact, there is a phase-in
period of one year, from 54 to 55, built into the act. When they
qualify for the MP pension, they no longer qualify for the
standard six-month severance that all members of parliament
qualify for, regardless of whether they are in or out of the
pension plan.
I wonder if the hon. minister could clarify for us, under clause
6, whether those MPs who are not in the MP pension plan who reach
age 55 will qualify for the six-month standard severance, plus
the additional supplementary severance allowance at the time they
retire, or when they are not re-elected, if they are 55 or over.
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Chairman, here we are getting into
an area that is a little complicated. For MPs who are in the
plan, we had a difficulty. I am talking about the MPs who are in
the plan, not the ones who were grandfathered. An MP who is in
the plan qualifies for a pension at age 55. Say that MP was
defeated at age 52. Because the MP had six years of service, they
would be pensionable. Therefore, they would no longer qualify
for the severance. But, of course, the MP did not get a pension
because he or she was not 55, so they ended up getting neither.
This is as a result of the change that we made in the pension
plan some four years ago to place the threshold at age 55. At
that time a companion change should have been made to the
severance.
What there will be now is a phase-out to ensure that someone
does not resign at age 54 years, 11 months and 29 days in order
to collect both. There would be a phase-out for people in the
pension plan.
If an MP ceases to be an MP and is out of the plan—and I
understand there are some 48 at the present time—the MP in
question would receive, if the person is less than 55, six months
severance and, at age 55, the supplementary severance plus the
interest at the crown rate that I described a moment ago in
answer to a question from the member for Vancouver North.
1630
I believe that answers that scenario. I do not know if there
are any other scenarios possible. I guess there is always the
one of the MP, like myself, who is in the plan and has
contributions at both the old system, the grandfathered one, and
the new one. Because I would be collecting a pension right now,
of course I would not get a severance at all.
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr.
Chairman, I have a comment and then a question. In terms of some
of the concerns that have been raised by my colleagues that there
is a sort of multilayered pension, I would say that in part this
is due to the fact that a minority of members of parliament asked
that there be different provisions. Those requests were
respected by the Prime Minister in 1994. Subsequently when other
changes were made it was necessary to respect that certain other
members had been in the old plan for so long that it would have
been quite unfair to try to fit them in to the new conditions.
That is not unusual even in the private sector. Looking at a lot
of major companies that have existed for a long time, there are
employees who belong to one plan and employees who belong to
another arrangement of the same plan because they began much
later than those other employees. From my own experience, my own
family in the CNR, there was the 1958 plan and then there was a
plan that existed before 1958 and I think some changes came after
that.
I think if the record is searched there would be other examples
in the private sector where this is done, not because people have
some kind of urge for complexity, but just because as changes
happen, the welfare of those who have already invested a certain
period of time in the existing plan has to be respected,
otherwise they would be treated quite unfairly.
My question for the government House leader has to do not so
much with this legislation but with other amendments to the MPs
pension act that have been sought in the past by my colleague
from Burnaby—Douglas. Could the government House leader tell me
if it is the government's intention, obviously not today and not
in the context of this legislation but at some other point, to
bring in legislation that would respect the decision taken in the
Rosenberg case and amend the MPs pension allowances act to
provide for benefits to same sex spouses? Is it the intention of
the government to do that at some point or not?
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Chairman, there has been at least
this one court decision, the Rosenberg case that has been
referred to. At the moment I am sorry that I do not know whether
or not it is the intention of the government to appeal this case.
I do not have knowledge of that at the present time.
Perhaps I should limit my comments to say that certainly it is
my feeling that any rules that apply eventually in the case of
civil servants generally in regard to survivors benefits should
be at least in principle similar when applied to members of
parliament. I believe for instance the rules we use now for
spouse and so on for the members of parliament plan is identical
or a mirror image of the ones utilized in the public service.
Thinking of it rationally, if there are changes in the future, my
belief is that they should respect the fact that whatever rules
apply in regard to survivors benefits in the public service
generally should equally apply to this particular plan.
Mr. Randy White: Mr. Chairman, I want to confirm an issue
that my colleague brought up here on the severance.
If an individual who is 60 years old had opted out of the plan
originally, he would receive six months severance plus one
additional month's severance for each year of service. I would
like that confirmed.
1635
Hon. Don Boudria L: Mr. Chairman, that is precisely it.
If the MP in question had 12 years or more of service, the
individual would in fact receive 18 months of severance. The
supplementary severance, to repeat what I said, is identical as
far as I know to the one in the Ontario legislature that is in
existence for its members who have opted out of the pension plan.
That is basically where the idea came from. I reason it to be
very similar.
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Mr. Chairman,
the government House leader in response to an earlier question
said that MPs in the current standard defined benefit plan make
financial contributions of up to $10,000 a year. That is true. I
am one of the people to whom he refers who in the past has
written articles about this. I have never denied the fact that
contributions are paid and that they are substantial.
The problem with the plan as continued through lack of amendment
in this bill is that it provides benefits much, much greater than
the contributions. In fact the benefits paid to an average
member out of the defined benefit plan are some 3.8 times greater
than the total average member's contributions.
The government House leader also spoke about a recommendation of
the Blais commission which would have eliminated the provision in
the Income Tax Act which allows members of parliament to shelter
a third of their de facto income from taxation. I think this is
an outrageous double standard that we impose on Canadians.
The government House leader also said that the committee which
discussed the report of the Blais commission decided that this
would be inequitable in terms of its treatment of people in
different provinces. I take a rather different view of why the
Blais commission's recommendations were not adopted.
I refer in particular to a statement made by the hon. member for
Mississauga Centre, the government caucus chair, who on February
9 was quoted by the Hill Times as saying with respect to
the recommendation to gross up the salary and replacement of the
tax-free expense allowance that “if we are going to get nailed
at least we want to get nailed for a reason and see it in the
wallet”. She furthermore said that the government should
“screw the Blais report”.
Does the hon. government House leader think that portrays a
constructive attitude to the report of an independent commission?
Does he not think that the bill before us today would be more
credible with the public were it to have reflected the binding
recommendations of an independent commission? Does he not in
other words think that this process should be changed so that it
is an independent one and that we are not put into a possible
conflict of interest position?
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Chairman, I think there are
basically three questions in there. The first one is the
statement that benefits are greater than the contributions. Of
course. It is a pension. The benefits coming out of the plan
are by definition and that is true of any pension plan.
What is different with this case is there is no assumed income
on the matched employer-employee contributions and that is why it
is not calculated. Take the matched employer-employee
contribution and assume to it a normal form of income and as far
back as 1990 the chief actuary said it was sound. But we have to
make that assumption because most investments do bring in income.
Some of the largest owners of shares in banks today are pension
plans. The Ontario teachers pension plan for instance owns a lot
of shares of many of the large banks in this country and the
pension fund is doing quite well. That is true. I recognize
that.
On the issue of what an hon. member may or many not have said
about the Blais commission report, I have not cast stones on
anyone in this House for any element of what is in this bill,
across the way to my own colleagues or otherwise. I will not do
so.
I think this package is reasonable overall. Even if there is
some provocation, I will not participate in that. I want to end
this debate in the tone which I think is right and which I
believe I have demonstrated through the process. I will not take
part in that.
1640
I am against the issue of binding recommendation. I am against
saying to my electors “I got a salary increase but it is not my
fault. It was a binding recommendation”. That is wrong in my
opinion. I am going to St. Isidore de Prescott in my riding this
weekend. They will say that I voted myself a 2% increase and I
will say yes. That is what I want to say. Yes. It is called
accountability. Not my fault is not my way of doing things.
Eventually I will be judged for what I do. There will be that
judgment day and I will accept the judgment of my electors. But
I will not chicken out. I will never say that it is not my
fault.
The Chairman: The 30 minutes having been taken up in
committee of the whole, pursuant to order made on Wednesday, June
10, 1998, it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put
forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the committee
stage of the bill now before the House.
(Clauses 6 to 16 inclusive agreed to)
(Title agreed to)
(Bill reported)
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.) moved that the bill be concurred in.
The Deputy Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to
adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Deputy Speaker: Pursuant to order made on Wednesday,
June 10, 1998 the motion is deemed carried on division.
(Motion agreed to)
The Deputy Speaker: When shall the bill be read the third
time? Now.
Some hon. members: Agreed.
[Translation]
Hon. Don Boudria moved that the bill be read the third time and
passed.
[English]
The Deputy Speaker: It is my duty pursuant to Standing
Order 38 to inform the House that the question to be raised
tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon.
member for Jonquière, National Highway System.
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Speaker, I would like you to
indicate to me when I have spoken about six or seven minutes so
that the time allotted can be divided among all parties. I want
everyone to have an opportunity to speak.
I want to make the third reading remarks brief first because we
have the half hour limitation for all parties and second because
I believe that this issue has been thoroughly debated.
We have had the report from the Blais commission which I was
offered to appoint. Ultimately the Prime Minister appoints all
commissions but I was asked to appoint such a commission
immediately after I became Minister of State and Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons.
It was my duty to do so pursuant to the Parliament of Canada Act.
1645
I believe the people who served on the Blais Commission did a
very good job. I thank Commissioner Blais, Dr. Jérôme-Forget and
Mr. Ray Speaker. All three of them have worked very hard at
producing this document. The bill we have before us today in
large measure, although not exactly, reflects the recommendations
they provided to us. Again I thank them. I believe they did a
good job.
As I have indicated in speeches in the House before, I have been
around Parliament Hill for a very long time. I came here on
October 25, 1966. I started from the most junior ranks of this
place and have had the opportunity of meeting truly great
Canadians who were called upon by their constituents to serve in
this place. I probably had the occasion of meeting more than
perhaps many in this room. I have had the opportunity of knowing
members of parliament both as a staffer looking upon those
almighty and powerful people who are parliamentarians and as a
parliamentarian myself.
An hon. member: And learned the truth.
Hon. Don Boudria: Yes, I have learned the truth. We are
the leaders of the country. That is the truth and I make no
apologies for it. This is a very noble profession and outside of
being called to represent one's fellow people in religious
offices it is the highest calling in the land. This is what I
believe.
Mr. John Diefenbaker, I happen to think, was a great Canadian.
He was not of my party but a great Canadian nonetheless. I met
him on many occasions as a staffer on the Hill. He said it well
when he said that there was in his view no greater honour and no
greater privilege, and let us not forget the second part, than to
serve in the House. I believe that to be true.
I also believe the House should be designed and should function
in such a way as to attract people from all across the country
and all walks of life. A doctor should be able to be a MP. Some
are. People from the agricultural community should be MPs. Some
are. People from finance and people from the teaching profession
should be able to be MPs. Yes, a busboy in the parliamentary
restaurant should also aspire some day to be a member of
parliament, and one did. As a matter of fact I believe I am the
only servant of the House of Commons ever to have been elected in
the history of Canada. That is okay. Every Canadian should be
able to aspire to come here. That is a principle of democracy.
One of my pet hobbies is the study of history. The great Reform
Act of 1832 in Great Britain talked about the shortcomings of
democracy in Britain at the time. Let me summarize what the two
main ones were. One was that the franchise was too small. Not
enough people in Britain had the right to vote. That was
undemocratic. It had to be widened so people could participate.
A second thing was wrong at the time. Daniel Patrick O'Connell,
the liberator of Ireland, had been elected to the British House
of Commons, the first Roman Catholic ever to get there. The only
reason he got there was that he was rich. No one else could.
Members of parliament were not paid.
The second element of the great Reform Act that is important to
me and that I want to bring to the attention of the House is that
people were demonstrating for their members of parliament to have
a salary so that people like themselves could serve in the
highest court of their land, the parliament of their country.
I am proud that I am able to do that in this country in spite of
the fact that I am not rich and probably never will be. I am
proud of the fact that people who are rich can also be here along
with me, all of us together.
1650
I agree with the articles that say that one does not come here
in order to get rich. That is true. However one does not come
here to come out of here broke as so many people have. That is
not right. Both those propositions are wrong.
There is a middle ground we should all believe in even if
sometimes we have to take a bit of heat when we go in front of
the media. I will do that because I believe that it is right. I
recommend the bill to the House of Commons.
[Translation]
Mr. Speaker, I thank you and all my colleagues in the House of
Commons. As this is perhaps the last bill I will be introducing
before the summer recess, I would also like to thank my
colleagues, particularly the House leaders of the other parties
for their support during the session. Together, we have all
contributed to the operation of what Mr. Diefenbaker called the
highest court in our land, the Parliament of Canada.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Before we resume the
debate I have a couple of announcements to make.
Colleagues, as some of you may know there has been a rumour
concerning the health of the hon. member for Wild Rose. To put
members' minds at ease he is alive and well and looking forward
to coming back and resuming his duties here. His illness was a
figment of imagination.
Again, before we get to debate, I want to explain to our
visitors that I will now make an announcement that we will be
leaving the Chamber in about half an hour to go to the Senate for
royal assent. What I am doing now is giving notice, in both
official languages, that we will be leaving the Chamber.
THE ROYAL ASSENT
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Order, please. I
have the honour to inform the House that a communication has been
received as follows:
I have the honour to inform you that the Honourable Charles
Gonthier, Puisne Judge of the Supreme Court of Canada, in his
capacity as Deputy Governor General, will proceed to the Senate
chamber today, the 11th day of June, 1998 at 7.15 p.m. for the
purpose of giving royal assent to certain bills.
Yours sincerely,
Anthony P. Smyth
Deputy Secretary Policy, Program and Protocol
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
PARLIAMENT OF CANADA ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-47, an
act to amend the Parliament of Canada Act, the Members of
Parliament Retiring Allowance Act and the Salaries Act, be read
the third time and passed.
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
I must say I am a bit at a loss. I thought we had interpretation
here for everybody. The notice was read in English and French.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): For the information
of the hon. member, there are certain historical things that must
be done in both languages. That was one of them.
Mr. Randy White: Mr. Speaker, that was well done.
1655
I am going to try to convince my colleagues in the House, those
on the other side in particular, to have a look at the current MP
pension plan. I listened to government House leader who was
getting a little excited about the fact that he has the right to
stand and encourage pay raises and that sort of thing.
Others in the House have an equal amount of passion in why pay
raises should not be. The fact that they are in an omnibus bill
we have to vote for one thing and another. They may not like one
thing that is in there for one party or another and we may
equally not like some other things. I think all of us in the
House understand that.
I want to tell members opposite that if they want to heckle I am
in a good mood for it. I think they had better keep peace over
there.
I want to talk about the current MP pension plan. I would like
my colleagues to listen for a few minutes about why I believe
that what has to occur in the House is some form of independent
actuary or some consulting firm, not a full-blown inquiry but
some form of assessment of the plan.
The reason this is required is that there are about 263 members
currently involved in the plan. There are those who were elected
prior to 1993 who have 5% of their salary each year going into
the fund. There were some changes relevant to that plan in 1994.
What happened was at that time in 1994 a number of members from
all three parties opted out of the plan because they did not like
it. Also at that time more changes were made to the plan, that
is those elected subsequent to 1993 now receive 4% of their
salary a year, and some other changes. That gives pre-1993,
post-1993 and those who have opted out.
There are also others in the House—and one of my colleagues is
involved in that regard—who are elected at this time and had
been members of parliament at some other time in the past. They
have broken service for which basically there has not been any
arrangements made. There have to be some rules for that as well.
That is the fourth kind. Then there are those MPs who are less
than age 55, may retire under the post-1993 plan and now are able
to get a severance. That is different from the other plan.
We have five situations. As one of my colleagues said we have
another situation where we have severance which will ultimately
end up in an RRSP.
We are talking about a total of 301 people with the most
convoluted pension plan I have ever seen in my life, and I can
tell the House I have seen a lot of them. For the benefit of all
concerned I am not asking at this point that members opt out of
the plan. I am asking that the House consider some kind of
avenue where a real actuarial firm—no political appointments but
real people out there—looks at the plan and makes some
recommendations that maybe everybody can live with: the taxpayer,
the general public, the average worker, those who have opted out
and those who want to opt out.
It is such a convoluted exercise that something must be done. It
will not go away. It is true we have established something here
today. For my colleagues to have RRSPs to get them through later
life is a good idea.
If we look at the concept that the B.C. government has come up
with, it is quite similar to what we have designed today except
that the government says it is taking 9% of the pay and putting
it into RRSPs and the member contributes equally. That is exactly
where we are headed.
1700
I think it is a natural process to go through. What we are
looking at here is an evolution of a pension plan that just got
under the back side of the taxpayers so much that it forces
change.
Now we have seen an acceptance by others in this House to
understand that a pension of some form is needed. Perhaps with
the wishes of my colleagues we acknowledge that it is not needed
to the extent that it is given to some.
A number of people have given up dollars out of this. We accept
that on this side. I take exception to the Conservative member
who took shots at us for this.
We need something reasonable. We do not expect to gorge off the
public. If this were just a flash in the pan from 1993, that
would be different but it is not. Our members who were elected in
1997 want the plan changed as well. They are sitting here hoping
that there is some agreement ultimately to change this plan.
They are embarrassed by being in it.
Ultimately something has to give. I think the members of this
House would be well advised before we turn this into another
fight again to at least have a look at it. We are not asking
them to opt out. We are asking them to have a look at it.
That is our position. That is where we are at. From here on in
we hope we look at a government and an institution that look
after their members in the same way private industry looks after
its members.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères, BQ): Mr. Speaker, first of
all, I would like to join with the government House leader in
thanking the members of the Blais commission for the work they
did and the report they produced to guide parliamentarians in
the proposed legislation, which we now have before us, that is,
Bill C-47.
I think that my colleague, the member for Rimouski—Mitis,
expressed very eloquently the Bloc Quebecois' position with
respect to the bill on MPs' remuneration. She put the reasons
very clearly.
They boil down to the following two points: Bloc Quebecois
members are opposed to the 2% salary increase for MPs and to any
increase in senators' pay, given our view that the Senate is an
institution that is already wasting close to $50 million of
Canadian taxpayers' money. There is therefore no need to throw
good money after bad.
But so that there is no misunderstanding about the Bloc
Quebecois' position, I would like to refer to an article by
Pierre Gravel that appeared in the June 8 edition of La Presse
under a very insidious, in my view, heading: “Pretendin”.
I see this right off as a psychological projection, since Mr.
Gravel takes the liberty of expressing several opinions on what
parliamentarians really think, without bothering to find out
what truly motivates them.
The Bloc's opposition to this bill is real. While we agree with
many of the provisions, there are two we cannot agree with. My
colleague made this point earlier very well. It is not because
we do not think parliamentarians do not deserve a decent salary
or a pay increase.
It is simply that, at the start of our mandate, recently
elected, knowing the conditions of the position we wanted to
occupy, it is a bit strange for us to be arranging for such an
increase.
1705
I have two quotes from Mr. Gravel:
Some members, when they sit in opposition, make the pretence of
opposing an increase, knowing full well that they will get it
anyway.
He concluded by saying:
They would better serve their cause by stopping the pretence of
not wanting it, when they are all dreaming of it.
This is what I meant when I talked about psychological
projection.
I was saying, at the beginning of my speech, that this
opposition is real. Mr. Gravel's quote, however, refers to
something else.
He basically said “They oppose it, knowing full well it will
apply to everyone”. The bill before us also allows us to
correct something we did a few months ago, when we allowed some
members to withdraw from the MP pension plan and others to
remain within.
Naturally, and logically, when Parliament passes legislation
concerning the remuneration of MPs, if it passes, it applies to
all.
I find Mr. Gravel's allusion rather insidious.
In the same vein, he refers to our colleague from Abitibi as
follows:
Liberal Guy St-Julien, from Abitibi, refused to cash the cheque
for a tiny salary increase of under 1% last January, and
promises to do the same again.
Mr. Gravel holds our colleague from Abitibi up as a sort of
model MP, probably forgetting that, on several occasions, our
colleague from Abitibi exhibited behaviour and actions that were
somewhat unworthy of this venerable institution in which we sit.
Moreover, he refers to “this case which at least has the merit
of consistency”—our colleague from Abitibi with the merit of
consistency! Does Mr. Gravel recall that the hon. member for
Abitibi sat with Brian Mulroney, under the Conservative banner,
at the time of Meech and Charlottetown, a period of great
conciliation with Quebec, and now sits under the Liberal banner
with Jean Chrétien and his plan B, which is all about a hard
line with Quebec? As far as consistency is concerned, he could
find a better example!
Reference was also made to a minority report by the parties in
opposition.
He writes, and I quote:
—a House of Commons committee report recommending improved pay
for MPs stirred up protest from representatives of the Reform
Party, the Bloc, the NDP and the Conservative Party. The
opposition spokespersons deemed it indecent to vote raises like
this for themselves when what was more important was to “look
out for Canadians first”, starting with the public servants,
whose salaries are lagging far behind.
I do not know what minority report Mr. Gravel is referring to,
as far as the Bloc Quebecois is concerned, because the Bloc's
minority reported stated:
In keeping with its public position on this, the Bloc Quebecois
is opposed to recommendations 1 and 3 in the report with respect
to the 2% raise in the parliamentary allowance, the expense
allowance and the additional special duty allowance for MPs,
where applicable.
Over all, then, this is a report I would describe as modest,
very succinct and to-the-point, very moderate in its wording.
This does not correspond at all with the impression Mr. Gravel
has of the Bloc Quebecois position. He continues by lumping
together issues such as the 2% increase, the increase from
$6,000 to $12,000, and so on.
I repeat that the Bloc Quebecois' opposition applies only to the
2% increase.
1710
As for the $6,000 to $12,000, which is not part of the
legislation before us and which was already approved by the
Board of Internal Economy, I would point out that the Bloc
Quebecois did not oppose this increase, because it is normal
that the housing allowance, which was set some years ago and
never amended, should be increased at this time.
Any enterprise that requires its representatives to travel
provides a housing allowance and per diems.
It is entirely normal that parliamentarians be entitled to such
an allowance and that it be indexed.
The same goes for the pension plan. As I said earlier, we agree
that members who opted out in recent years should now be allowed
to opt back in under conditions set out in the bill. We also
agree with the provision regarding the departure allowance. It
is well known that the minimum standards for any professional
job include a departure allowance. We are therefore in favour
of this allowance.
I will simply say that, in my view, and with all due respect for
Mr. Gravel, whom I generally find to be a completely
professional editorial writer, this editorial was based on
incomplete and erroneous information.
I think I have made that clear today.
I would like to pick up on Mr. Gravel's conclusion, and then I
will conclude myself with a paraphrase of his introduction. Is
there anything more annoying than journalists and editorial
writers who shed crocodile tears over the bad reputation MPs
enjoy with the public, when they often contribute to that bad
reputation through their writing?
I therefore invite Mr. Gravel to reflect on this conclusion and
I also invite parliamentarians to acknowledge that, of course,
the job needs to be properly paid, not just on its own merits,
but also in order to attract quality candidates for the good of
the institution, as has already been said.
But we must not lose sight of the fact that this increase was
proposed just after we were elected to this House, that we were
aware of the conditions when we decided to run in the election,
and that we felt the salary was quite appropriate at the time.
Consequently, in our opinion, there is no need to change it.
It must also be kept in mind, as far as the Bloc Quebecois
position is concerned, that we feel it is most inappropriate to
increase the pay of the members of the other place.
[English]
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
the debate this afternoon has been conducted with appropriate the
tone and in the appropriate manner. As I said earlier, this is a
difficult thing. I wish it did not go with the territory. I
wish we could have a process in which these kinds of decisions
were removed from us. I do not agree with the government House
leader that there would be something wrong with taking this out
of our hands, but that is a legitimate point of view.
When I say it goes with the territory I am reminded of once
being in a bookstore and looking through a collection of old
newspaper stories somebody had put together on the occasion of
the anniversary of something. When I was flipping through I
noticed that in 1905 the headlines read “MPs give
themselves—”. So we might take some comfort from the fact
that plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose and that this has
always been a matter of some controversy, at least as far back as
93 years ago and probably before that.
1715
I want to say something with respect to something the House
leader of the official opposition said about the fact that there
are so many different categories. I understand his concern but
if the House leader of the official opposition were to get his
way surely, and I do not speak against this in principle, there
would be more categories. Unless all the people who are in the
plan now in various stages were to be dealt with in an incredibly
unfair way, the investment that they have made in the particular
plans would somehow have to be recognized. We would then have
another category.
Even if the Reform Party were to form the government and bring
in its own plan, unless it was going to act in a way that it
would otherwise condemn in every other aspect of human life it
would have to take some account of the reality of individuals and
their participation in the existing plans.
All I am saying is that there is no way to escape complexities.
If an entirely new plan were brought in and you were to
recognize, as you should in some way, the participation of people
in the past and in the present in pre-existing plans, you would
have to wait until everybody in all those other plans died off
and then presumably you would only have one plan for everyone.
That would take a long time.
I do not think we should be against complexity in principle. I
think that where fairness demands complexity then complexity it
is. Simplicity in itself is not a virtue when it comes to these
kinds of things.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): It being 5.18 p.m.,
pursuant to order made Wednesday, June 10, 1998, it is my duty to
interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question
necessary to dispose of the third reading stage of the bill now
before the House.
Pursuant to order made Wednesday, June 10, 1998, the motion
is deemed carried on division.
(Motion agreed to, bill read the third time and passed)
* * *
MESSAGE FROM THE SENATE
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I have the
honour to inform the House that a message has been received from
the Senate informing this House that the Senate has passed a bill
to which the concurrence of this House is desired.
Mr. Randy White: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
Does this still apply now that the government has flown in the
face of Canadians and appointed five more senators just now? Are
we still going to go through with this?
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I cannot respond to
the hon. House leader of the opposition because I have no idea
what he is referring to.
THE ROYAL ASSENT
1720
[English]
A message was delivered by the Usher of the Black Rod as
follows:
Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Deputy to the Governor General
desires the immediate attendance of this honourable House in the
chamber of the honourable the Senate.
Accordingly the Speaker with the House went up to the Senate
chamber.
1730
And being returned:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I have the honour to
inform the House that when the House went up to the Senate
Chamber the Deputy Governor General was pleased to give, in Her
Majesty's name, the royal assent to the following bills:
Bill C-9, an act for making the system of Canadian ports
competitive, efficient and commercially oriented, providing for
the establishing of port authorities and the divesting of certain
harbours and ports, for the commercialization of the St. Lawrence
Seaway and ferry services and other matters related to maritime
trade and transport and amending the Pilotage Act and amending
and repealing other acts as a consequence—Chapter 10.
Bill C-12, an act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Superannuation Act—Chapter 11.
Bill S-3, an act to amend the Pension Benefits Standards Act,
1985 and the Office of the Superintendent of Financial
Institutions Act—Chapter 12.
Bill S-9, an act respecting depository bills and depository
notes and to amend the Financial Administration Act—Chapter 13.
Bill C-31, an act respecting Canada Lands Surveyors—Chapter 14.
Bill C-39, an act to amend the Nunavut Act and the Constitution
Act, 1867—Chapter 15.
Bill C-15, an act to amend the Canada Shipping Act and to make
consequential amendments to other acts—Chapter 16.
Bill C-4, an act to amend the Canadian Wheat Board Act and to
make consequential amendments to other acts—Chapter 17.
Bill C-411, an act to amend the Canada Elections Act—Chapter
18.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. As a result of the royal assent that just took place,
business that normally would have been conducted under Government
Orders was not conducted.
I am going to ask for unanimous consent to return to government
orders for approximately one minute so that the House can hear a
motion to approve the amendments made by the Senate to Bill
C-410, an act to change the name of certain electoral districts
and to concur in it.
This is a bill that is of importance to all parties in the
House. The names of ridings are changing and there is a certain
urgency that this proceed as quickly as possible.
If you would ask the House for consent that that motion be put,
I do not think it requires any debate. It would just require a
minute or so of House time.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The chief government
whip has asked for unanimous to revert Government Orders for a
short period of time, no more than five minutes, for the purpose
of disposing of a bill. Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES READJUSTMENT ACT
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.) moved
that the seconding reading of, and concurrence in, amendments
made by the Senate to Bill C-410, an act to change the name of
certain electoral districts.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is the House ready
for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is it the pleasure
of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to, amendments read the second time and
concurred in)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The House will now
proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business as
listed on today's order paper.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Order, please. I
have received notice from the hon. member for Elk Island that he
is unable to move his motion during private members' hour on
Friday, June 12, 1998.
It has not been possible to arrange an exchange of positions in
the order of precedence. Accordingly, I am directing the table
officers to drop that item of business to the bottom of the order
of precedence. Private members' hour will thus be cancelled and
the House will continue with the business before it prior to
private members' hour.
* * *
1735
INCOME TAX ACT
Mr. David Chatters (Athabasca, Ref.) moved that Bill
C-227, an act to amend the Income Tax Act (income deferral from
forced destruction of livestock or natural disaster), be read the
second time and referred to a committee.
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to present my private
members' bill. It would appear it is the last private members'
bill of this spring session of parliament.
It is actually quite a simple issue. It is an attempt to
correct a strange anomaly in the Income Tax Act. I would have
real trouble understanding how any members of this House could
reasonably object to it.
Certainly in recent years Canadians across this country have
suffered devastating emotional, psychological and financial
impacts of natural disasters with huge costs and losses of both
property and peace of mind.
Farmers who are individuals with the most intimate professional
and personal ties to the land oftentimes compose the group that
is most severely affected by these natural disasters. Over the
past three years, farmers across the country have suffered
serious losses due to the disastrous flooding of major river
systems.
Extensive national media coverage familiarized most Canadians
with the Saguenay flood in Quebec and the Red River flood in
Manitoba. However, fewer Canadians were aware of the flooding
that took place in northern Alberta and certainly in my riding.
During these periods of flooding my constituency office was
bombarded with calls from distressed farmers in dire need of
assistance. Many have been forced to sell their cattle as they
were unable to feed them due to destruction of their feed crops.
These same constituents were concerned that they would be unable
to make ends meet that year let alone make enough headway to be
back on their feet by the following year. The constituents' calls
I received are what gave rise to this bill being discussed here
today.
This bill would allow farmers to defer for one year all income
from the sale or destruction of livestock given that the sale was
necessitated by a shortage of feed due to a natural disaster.
This bill would also allow farmers to defer income from
compensation they receive from Agriculture Canada in the case of
forced destruction of livestock because of infectious disease
such as anthrax. This deferment of income tax would lessen the
immediate financial burden on farmers, giving them time to repair
damage to their farms or to rebuild their stock of farm animals.
Unfortunately Bill C-227 is non-votable. However, I am hoping
that the discussion today will raise awareness in this House of
the positive changes that could and should be made to aid those
farmers adversely affected by natural occurrences beyond their
control.
Through this bill I am not asking that the government introduce
an entirely new element to the Income Tax Act. Currently the act
does allow for deferment of income from the sale of livestock but
for some curious reason only in the event of drought.
This bill simply aims to remove the inequity by extending that
same consideration to all farmers forced to sell or destroy
livestock due to natural disasters, infection or disease.
Therefore acceptance of the principles of this bill would simply
mean recognition of the need to close the gaps in existing
legislation.
Frankly, I am appalled that such gaps were allowed to exist in
the first place. Surely if insufficient moisture preventing the
growth of crops to feed livestock is sufficient reason to defer
income from the sale of the animals, then excessive moisture that
destroys the crops needed to feed the animals is also sufficient
reason to defer income from the sale of animals.
1740
In both cases the farmers are forced to sell their livestock
because of natural occurrences beyond their control. In one case
the natural occurrence is drought, while in the other it is
flooding. In both cases the farmers would benefit from income
tax deferral which would give them time to recover from whatever
disaster has occurred.
In addition to the many phone calls I received both during and
after the northern Alberta floods, I also received an abundance
of letters. One letter written by a constituent on behalf of the
farmers in the Kinuso area detailed the financial minefield faced
by farmers on flooded lands. This constituent described their
situation as a vicious circle of high cost and low returns.
During the northern Alberta floods the vicious circle went
something like this. Excessive moisture due to heavy rains and
excessive flooding drastically reduced the amount of hay that
farmers were able to bale and what they were able to bale was in
very poor condition. If any crop was harvested at all or if any
hay was baled, it was only enough to supplement the feed that had
to be brought in from elsewhere.
At the time farmers were faced with exorbitantly high prices for
feed because of the shortage of feed in the area and unusually
low prices for cattle simply because there was an excess of
cattle forced onto the market by the forced sell off. The
constituent's letter describes the situation as a triple whammy:
no local feed, high prices for imported feed and very low cattle
prices.
Many farmers were faced with a situation in which they could not
afford to feed their livestock, but if they sold it, they would
receive such low prices that they would not be able to replace
their livestock for the same price at a later date. Of course, a
substantial amount of that income that they received from the
sale of livestock would then be claimed by the tax man, leaving
them even less to replace the cattle with in another year after
the natural disaster had passed.
When the farmers were taxed on the pittance they received for
the sale of their livestock, the additional financial burden of
taxation was unbearable to many.
All farmers are affected by natural disasters but it is the
young farmers who are financially destroyed. Unlike the more
established farmers, they do not have something to fall back on.
Oftentimes they have invested all that they have into a small
farming business, only to see it swept away by some merciless
flood.
Immediately taxing these young farmers on their income from the
forced sale of livestock is unduly harsh when they do not have a
financial safety net to fall back on. The immediate spike of
income that is generated through the forced sale of livestock in
many cases makes the same young farmers ineligible for existing
safety nets that are there for financial disasters.
The principles of this bill would be especially helpful to those
farmers who are just beginning and who are desperately struggling
to make ends meet.
I am hopeful that all members of this House will see the value
of this bill, although I am uncertain of the response from the
opposite side of the House, given their horrendous track record
in regard to meeting western farmers' needs.
If any other economic group in this country were to suffer the
level of discrimination that the western Canadian farmers have
had to suffer over the last number of decades in this country,
there would simply be blood in the streets. That may be a harsh
statement, but that is not an exaggeration. One only has to look
back in Canadian history to the Winnipeg strike or some of the
protests by the aboriginal community. When other groups found
themselves backed into a corner, they took drastic action to
right that wrong.
When one looks at the record, the western Canadian farmers
certainly have suffered some real injustices in this country. If
we look back at the Crow rate, the subsidized freight rate that
was introduced in this country, it was not to help the western
Canadian farmers, but to help the central Canadian feedlot
operators to move feed grain from the plains of western Canada to
southern Ontario to feed cattle. At the same time, the western
Canadian farmers had to simply turn around and pay the full rate
for manufactured goods returning west from central Ontario.
If that is not discrimination I do not know what is.
1745
We can think of many other examples. We have been debating the
issue of the Canadian Wheat Board in this House for some months.
It was not created to benefit the western Canadian farmer. It
was created originally to produce wheat to ship to Britain to
help the war effort. Western Canadian farmers were again asked
to contribute billions of dollars to the war effort, more than
what the manufacturing workers of central Canada were asked to
contribute. I could go on and on with different examples where
that discrimination exists.
In recognition of the unfairness of some of these things the
government could move quickly to deal with this issue and bring
some fairness. I am not terribly optimistic that will happen. In
conjunction with the issue of the flooding in northern Alberta I
asked this House through private member's Motion No. 11 to
provide the same kind of disaster relief for the farmers whose
property and farms were destroyed in the flooding simply to give
those farmers the same level of disaster relief that farmers in
Ontario and Quebec were granted because of the ice storm and the
flooding. I think the reaction from the other side of the House
was an insult. A simple request for some fairness and equality
was simply turned down without even a moment's consideration.
My motion would have guaranteed that the part time farmers who
intended to become full time farmers but who were forced to seek
off farm employment to build farm equity financial assistance in
the event of a natural disaster. It is unfortunate that after
the motion was debated, the government quickly and with very
little thoughtful consideration voted it down.
I experienced additional disappointment earlier this year when I
received a phone call from a constituent who was faced with
extreme financial hardship and simply felt he had no place to
turn. Through no fault of his own because of heavy flooding and
heavy rains over the last couple of years in our part of northern
Alberta this farmer had been forced to go two consecutive years
without being able to harvest a crop. This put the farmer in
real financial hardship. He was unable to meet his commitment to
the Farm Credit Corporation.
One would think that under those circumstances a crown
corporation like the Farm Credit Corporation could show this
individual some compassion and some consideration. But no, that
was not possible. It simply evicted this man and his family and
they were out on the street. It is the height of cruelty in such
a situation to treat him like that after he had faced that kind
of hardship and psychological bombardment while at the same time
not two miles away, Alberta Pacific Pulp Mill was unable to meet
its obligations under a contract with the Alberta government and
it turned around and negotiated a settlement to forgive some $250
million worth of interest on the debt.
Surely if this government can afford things like the $1.5
billion subsidized loan to China to buy Candu reactors or the
several hundred million dollars in farm aid to Indonesia, it
should certainly be able to show some compassion for these
western Canadian farmers who through no fault of their own have
found themselves in financial trouble. It simply does not
happen.
This individual not only lost his farm but his home. He was
dealt with very callously by representatives of the Farm Credit
Corporation. In spite of appeals I made to the minister and to
farm credit head offices, they had no time to look at the
situation.
1750
An hon. member: A predatory organization.
Mr. David Chatters: The hon. member could not have said
it better.
However, if members on the opposite side of the House think I am
being unduly critical of their performance I would like to remind
them that the changes proposed by this bill present the perfect
opportunity for the government to show that it does care about
the needs of farmers.
Certainly farmers in my riding and presumably farmers across
Canada would be pleased to see the changes I am proposing. I
would therefore implore all members of the House, but especially
those members opposite, to give serious consideration to this
bill. Although not votable by choice of the committee
responsible to make that decision, it is my hope that this
discussion has highlighted the gaps in the existing legislation.
It is also my hope that the government will take advantage of
this excellent opportunity to pursue greater fairness not only
for the flood victims in my riding but for all farmers across
this country forced to sell or destroy livestock as a result of
disease or natural disaster.
Mr. Tony Valeri (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this private member's bill
endeavours to extend the current one year tax deferral for income
from forced destruction of livestock to other amounts paid to
farmers with respect to natural disasters.
The hon. member for Athabasca in proposing this wishes to ease
the financial burden on farmers whose property is damaged or lost
through a capricious act of nature. I applaud my colleague for
his initiative in this regard. It is important as we all
witnessed during the recent ice storm that lives and livelihood
disrupted by natural emergencies be quickly restored. I also
agree that governments have a crucial role to play in the
rebuilding process that follows devastation.
I would also like to point out, however, that while I support in
principle the spirit of this proposed amendment, it is flawed in
two very important respects. The proposal before us today is
inconsistent with existing tax deferral provisions for farmers.
In addition, the proposal fails from a technical perspective
because it fully identifies neither the amounts to be deferred
nor the circumstances whereby deferral would take place.
The Income Tax Act allows farmers to defer for tax purposes
amounts received with respect to livestock in two important
circumstances, forced destruction under statutory authority and
in the case of widespread drought.
The proposed amendment attempts to build on the current one year
tax deferral for income from the forced destruction of farm
animals. The government from time to time orders the destruction
of livestock known or suspected to carry various diseases in
order to prevent the spread of illness to other animals or
humans. Farmers may defer the inclusion in income of amounts
paid by the government as compensation for the slaughter of
diseased animals and need only report these amounts in the year
following the year of animal loss.
This tax treatment is proper because the government recognizes
that the disposal of livestock was involuntary on the farmer's
part. In addition, depending on the timing of government action,
farmers may not have sufficient time to replenish livestock
before the end of the year. To maintain tax neutrality affected
farmers are allowed to defer the proceeds to the next taxation
year and offset it by deducting the cost of animal replacement as
it takes place.
The phrase “under statutory authority” in this regard is both
clear and necessary. For income deferral to occur the government
must be responsible for the timing of animal destruction as well
as for the associated compensation. Unless these conditions are
satisfied no special tax treatment is allowed.
The proposed amendment, on the other hand, would extend this
special tax treatment to amounts paid with respect to a natural
disaster under statutory authority. The use of the phrase
“under statutory authority” in this context is confusing and
inappropriate. Unlike the case of diseased livestock, the
government does not order property destroyed through a natural
disaster and does not compensate farmers in this regard under
statutory authority.
A tax deferral is also provided to farmers for livestock sales
associated with a prolonged drought. However, for special
treatment to take place affected farmers must carry on business
in a prescribed drought region as determined jointly by the
Minister of Finance and the Minister of Agriculture and
Agri-Food.
In addition, relief is only extended to farmers whose herd is
reduced by a specific magnitude throughout a taxation year and
only a portion of income from the sale of livestock is eligible
for deferral.
These conditions were put in place through consultations with
affected farm groups and agriculture Canada to ensure that relief
is granted for widespread drought and not for localized cases.
1755
However, the proposed amendment includes no similar threshold
even though droughts are also natural disasters. Thus the
amendment is inconsistent with the current tax policy in this
area.
Moreover, the current income deferral mechanisms are limited to
livestock only where the proposed amendment is not. The proposal
therefore represents a fundamental departure from previous policy
and is not simply an extension of the current provisions.
I am also concerned that the intent of this amendment providing
tax relief to farmers hit hard by nature is not fully realized by
the proposed language. To begin, the proposal does not make
clear which amounts are to benefit from special tax treatment.
Amounts with respect to a natural disaster could include payments
from numerous sources such as governments, insurance companies
and other individuals.
Payments could also be made for a variety of purposes such as
replacement of inventory, recovery of capital assets or even
protective measures against future catastrophes. Some of these
amounts should perhaps qualify for tax relief but others
decidedly should not. Under the proposal all such payments could
potentially qualify.
In addition, the meaning of natural disaster is not anywhere
defined by this amendment. When we say disaster we normally
refer to a sudden calamitous event resulting in great damage,
loss or destruction. But for the purposes of tax law this does
not suffice. In extending special tax treatment we must be very
specific to ensure that relief is provided only where warranted.
It should also be noted that farmers already receive favourable
tax treatment in Canada. For example, farmers may elect to
report income and expenses on a cash basis rather than on an
accrual basis as in most other businesses. Farmers are also
eligible for the $500,000 lifetime capital gains exemption for
farm property. They may be able to defer proceeds from the sale
of a farm property through a 10 year capital gains reserve and
are in fact exempt from making quarterly tax instalments.
I believe everyone present here today will agree that victims of
natural disasters deserve the federal government's and the
nation's full support and empathy in reconstructing their homes
and businesses.
However, I also believe that all levels of government already
play a significant and constructive part in the process of
restoration. The proposed amendment despite its good intentions
is not consistent with current tax policy and does not
effectively address the difficulties faced by affected farmers.
I thank the hon. member for bringing this issue forward. As he
mentioned in his opening remarks, perhaps the discussion will
shed some additional light on how we may find some other type of
vehicle to address the concerns that the hon. member has brought
forward. I reiterate that the amendment is not consistent with
current tax policy and does not effectively address the
difficulties that may be faced by affected farmers.
I bring to the attention of the House that although I do once
again thank the member for bringing forward this issue, I must
suggest that this proposal not be adopted by the House.
Mr. Dick Proctor (Palliser, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to speak to Bill C-227, an act to amend the Income Tax
Act regarding income deferral for farmers who must sell or
destroy livestock in the case of a natural disaster.
I congratulate the member for Athabasca for taking the
time to investigate the Income Tax Act and to isolate some of the
problems that farmers encounter when natural disasters occur.
In congratulating him I certainly would not want to agree with
him about his comments and would want to disassociate myself with
the comments he made about the Canadian Wheat Board. If he
wanted to refer to the Crowsnest Pass freight rate agreement and
the dissolution of the Crow benefit a few years ago, he would be
on firmer ground and enjoy more support from this caucus.
This bill would allow farmers to defer income for 12 months if
they have to sell off livestock or destroy livestock because of a
natural disaster. This would give the farmer time to rebuild his
or her livestock once that natural disaster was over.
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Furthermore, in a case where Agriculture Canada orders livestock
to be destroyed, any taxation on compensation would not be
included in the farmer's taxes for a 12 month period. Again,
this would give the farmer time to rebuild once the disease had
been eradicated.
In the bill before us, Bill C-227, the hon. member is referring
specifically to the aftermath of a flood in the Lesser Slave Lake
area, but the bill would clearly apply to other areas where
natural disaster has occurred. We think of the Red River flood,
the Saguenay flood and the ice storms in eastern Ontario and
Quebec of last winter.
The disaster financial assistance arrangements have been in
place for some time. I believe they have been in place for 28
years. The program provides assistance when disaster strikes. It
works, accordingly, that the federal government may be requested
by a provincial government to help out financially. This
assistance is provided through the disaster financial assistance
arrangements and the payments help those governments to meet the
basic costs involved.
This financial assistance arrangement has been in place, as I
say, for almost three decades and is administered under
guidelines ensuring that federal financial assistance is provided
in a fair and equitable way across Canada. The amount of this
federal compensation is determined by a formula based on
provincial population and other criteria.
With reference to the ice storm of 1998, despite the existence
of the arrangements under DFAA, problems did occur. I know that
we received calls and letters from the Canadian Federation of
Agriculture following that severe ice storm and we were told that
the provisions of the DFAA applied to some situations but not to
others.
The federation told me that federal and provincial legislation
covered capital losses but not the loss of income. For example,
if a farmer had to throw out milk because the truck could not get
to the yard to pick it up, he or she was compensated. On the
other hand, trees in a farm orchard which were injured or
stressed from the storm meant that the farmer was not compensated
for lost productivity resulting from that.
In addition, there were problems with the definition of farmer
for purposes of compensation. Many people who are forced to work
off farm to support their operations were then considered to be
hobby farmers and not eligible for assistance under the DFAA,
although I think eventually there was an exception made for
farmers affected by the ice storm and so-called hobby farmers
were included back in January and February.
We know that off farm work has become the exception, not the
rule, and that farmers work to subsidize their operations.
There is a need for a more detailed look at the DFAA as it
relates to the loss of income and who is eligible for
compensation. I know that the bill of the hon. member for
Athabasca relates to the Income Tax Act, but what we are talking
about is a measure of protection for the income of farmers.
Any discussion of protecting farm income must also take into
account the government's lack of support for the agriculture and
agri-food sector. The support has declined drastically
throughout this decade. It stood at $6 billion in 1991 and it
had been reduced to less than $2 billion by 1997, a decline of $4
billion, and this year's budget confirmed even further cuts.
Farmers and other rural dwellers have sacrificed enormously in
the fight against the deficit. One might well ask what the
agriculture minister is doing to represent the interests of rural
Canadians at the cabinet table. We believe the government is
doing too little rather than too much to support farmers facing
difficult circumstances.
I want to refer briefly to an opposed vote in the supplementary
estimates printed recently in the Order and Notice Papers. I
would have liked to have spoken to this the other day, but time
allocation did not permit it, so I will make reference to it now.
It involves the member for Prince George—Peace River, who was
opposed to the federal department of agriculture spending $13.8
million on crop reinsurance for Saskatchewan. I want to go
through this because I think it was perhaps a shortsighted, mean
spirited approach. I just want to give a little bit of history
to back up the point.
In the 1980s the provincial Conservative government of
Saskatchewan set up a number of farm insurance programs.
1805
Members will recall that there was a serious drought in
Saskatchewan at that time and indeed some action was needed.
Ottawa got involved. It was probably one of those late night
phone calls between then Premier Devine and then Prime Minister
Mulroney. In any event, they hastily devised ad hoc programs and
carried so much debt that they drove the cost of farmers'
premiums through the roof.
Following the 1991 provincial election in Saskatchewan, the
incoming government moved to remedy the situation. The federal
and provincial governments both wrote off a portion of the debt
in these programs to put them on a sound financial footing.
Saskatchewan made a payment to do away with the debt and Ottawa
did the same. As I understand it, the money involved in this
vote is to be used for that purpose, namely, to retire a debt
that was driving premiums not only up for farmers but out of
sight.
Therefore, I cannot understand why the member for Prince
George—Peace River would want to prevent this money from going
to Saskatchewan farmers and I am sure the farmers in that
province would not understand it either. I notice in passing
that the member for Prince George—Peace River has asked the
minister of agriculture on several occasions over this session to
provide assistance to farmers in the Peace River area where crops
had been lost due to rain and flooding.
I too have spoken out in this House, urging the minister of
agriculture to do more to help the farmers in Peace River. So I
am disappointed that the Reform Party member who wants assistance
for Peace River farmers would ask that Ottawa turn its back on
farmers in Saskatchewan. It seems to me that it is yet another
example of that party picking and choosing who it is going to
support and who it is not. I am sure this will not go unnoticed
by farmers in my province.
In conclusion, I congratulate the hon. member for Athabasca for
his private member's bill and assure him of my support for it.
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Tobique—Mactaquac, PC): Mr. Speaker,
Bill C-227, moved by the member for Athabasca, is similar to
Motion No. 11 that was moved by the hon. member some time ago.
This bill is an effort to provide equality and fairness for
farmers.
This bill will allow farmers to defer income for one year if the
farmer has to sell off livestock or destroy it because of a
natural disaster, in the case of floods, drought, et cetera.
In the case of a natural disaster, if the farmer must sell
livestock because their feed has been destroyed or for any other
reason, the taxes on the income received from the sale will be
deferred for one year. This will give the farmer time to rebuild
the livestock once the natural disaster has passed.
In the case of an Agriculture Canada order to destroy livestock,
any taxation on compensation would not be included in the
farmer's taxes for one year. Again, this will give the farmer
time to rebuild the livestock once the disease has been
eradicated. This money is not taxed in the case of drought, so
it should logically be extended to include livestock affected by
other natural disasters and forced destruction of livestock for
other health reasons.
With the aftermath of the ice storm of January 1998 there is a
great need to re-evaluate the income support mechanism in the
agricultural sector. When a natural disaster occurs, whether it
be the floods of Manitoba, the Saguenay, northern Alberta, or
last summer's drought in Nova Scotia, it is most often farmers
who are hit the hardest financially.
It is time for the federal government to take a more proactive
rather than reactive stance and start developing policies that
benefit producers in good times and in bad times. In saying
that, it is important that we emphasize the word consistency when
we talk about disaster assistance. Without consistency in the
delivery of assistance programs for farmers it would only create
division between farmers across this great nation.
Before I go on any further, I would like to state for the record
that when the Progressive Conservative government was in power
between 1984 and 1989 support for our farmers was greater than
ever before. Crop and income insurance totalled $21.7 billion,
about $4 billion a year. Grains and oilseed farmers hurt by the
1988 drought received $850 million in emergency assistance.
It was also the Progressive Conservative government that in
January 1991 brought in a new generation of farm safety net
programs that farmers could count on. They were aimed at
boosting farm income.
1810
One of the most important programs, which continues to exist to
this day, the net income stabilization account, replaced ad hoc
programs and put in place help for farmers in all regions of this
country.
The bill before us clearly demonstrates the need for us to
re-evaluate our income protection system for farmers. Although
government officials might say that weather conditions are never
the same, disaster assistance is not the same either. I would
suggest that this is where the problem lies.
There must be consistency in determining the level of
assistance. It should not simply be based on the amount of
publicity a natural disaster gets. This consistency must be
applied to circumstances from coast to coast. Ad hoc programs
provide for ad hoc solutions.
With the environmental and climatic changes that this world is
undergoing, it is vital now, more than ever, to monitor these
issues on an ongoing basis and develop consistent policies that
would help farmers deal with these changes both financially and
realistically.
I would like to mention that the hon. member for
Brandon—Souris, our party's agriculture critic, has a private
member's bill, Bill C-387, which addresses the problem of
consistency. The hon. member's bill would establish a national
committee to develop policies and procedures to ensure
co-ordination in the delivery of programs by governments in the
case of agricultural losses or disasters created by weather or
pests, to co-ordinate the delivery of information, assistance,
relief and compensation and to study the compliance of such
programs with the WTO requirements.
The committee would consist of a membership of up to 21 members.
Three would be nominated by the Minister of Agriculture and
Agri-Food. One member would be nominated by each provincial
agriculture minister. Five members would be representatives of
farmers and would be nominated by such organizations representing
farmers. Three members would be representatives of industry
related to agriculture products and would be nominated by such
organizations representing that industry.
The committee would monitor situations on an ongoing basis and
discuss what income protection measures would be available to
farmers in the event of disasters or unusual conditions caused by
weather or pests, taking into account crop insurance, flood and
drought protection programs and NISA.
That being said, the PC Party will support this bill. I hope
the hon. member for Athabasca will also support my colleague's
bill when it comes before the House. Unfortunately, Bill C-227
is not votable. It is important that all provinces from coast to
coast have input and share ideas on income protection for the
farming community. This bill clearly shows that there is a much
larger problem. The main problem is the need for consistency in
all financial arrangements between the federal, provincial and
territorial governments. What is needed is for the federal
government to show leadership on this issue and ensure that
equity and fairness is there.
In conclusion, now that we know the House will rise tomorrow for
the summer recess, I wish all members of parliament, including
you, Mr. Speaker, a very nice summer vacation.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. member for
Athabasca, as the mover of the bill, has the last five minutes to
sum up.
Mr. David Chatters (Athabasca, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
expected the response that I received from the government.
Nonetheless, I am still very disappointed with it. We can always
find ways around the issue. We can always find flaws in the
bill. My intention was to raise the issue of fairness and
equality.
I would encourage the government, as imperfect as my bill is, to
address the issue and to make an effort, through the Minister of
Agriculture and Agri-Food, the Minister of Finance, or whomever
would be appropriate, to bring some fairness to the issue so that
those livestock producers who have to sell off livestock the same
as they would in a drought or in a flood situation would be able
to retain that income in the following year to replace that
livestock.
1815
In that spirit I would like to move that Bill C-227 be withdrawn
and the subject matter thereof be referred to the Standing
Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. member of
Athabasca has requested the unanimous consent of the House to
have the contents of the motion referred to the Standing
Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food.
Does he have unanimous consent of the House to move the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
* * *
ACCESS TO INFORMATION ACT
Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I rise as a private member on a point of order to seek
unanimous consent. I feel very awkward after what just occurred
two seconds ago.
Last October I submitted a private member's bill dealing with
the access to information bill which proposed a great number of
amendments to the legislation. I received support from all
parties. There were representations from the Bloc, the Reform
Party, the Conservatives and the NDP. I received seconders from
all opposition parties and seconders to a total of 113 on the
government backbenches.
Unfortunately in the time since then I have had many
representations on my bill. A lot of people looked at it and
made suggestions. They have noticed some flaws and some
technical difficulties in a few areas which maybe I did not think
out very clearly.
I emphasize here it is still at first reading; it has not been
picked. If it ever does get to be read in second reading I would
not want debate to be deflected on the flaws. I would hope the
debate would deal with the good points of the bill.
Therefore I would request unanimous consent of the House to
substitute the text, which I will forthwith table, for the text
submitted last October and that the said bill keep its number,
which is Bill C-264, and standing on the order paper as there is
no change in title.
I point out that the other option would have been to simply
submit it under a new title, but I would much rather keep it
under the old designation of Bill C-264.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The House has heard
the request for unanimous consent by the hon. member for
Wentworth—Burlington to submit a new text for a bill already
presented standing in his name.
Does the House give it unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
* * *
INCOME TAX ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill
C-227, an act to amend the Income Tax Act (income deferral from
forced destruction of livestock or natural disaster), be read the
second time and referred to a committee.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): There being no
further members rising for debate and the motion not being
designated as a votable item, the time provided for the
consideration of Private Members' Business has now expired and
the order is dropped from the order paper.
1820
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, according to the
order tabled and adopted yesterday I seek unanimous consent for
the House to proceed to the adjournment debate.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is there unanimous
consent to proceed to the late show?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
[Translation]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to
have been moved.
NATIONAL HIGHWAY SYSTEM
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, thank you
for this opportunity to re-establish the facts concerning the
debate between the Minister of Transport for Canada and his
Quebec counterpart on highway 175.
On June 4, I asked the Minister of Transport what game he was
playing.
I asked him why, in his response to the hon. member for
Chicoutimi on June 2, he neglected to mention that the Quebec
Minister of Transport had formally invited him to discuss a new
strategic highway improvement program agreement, particularly
for highway 175, at the meeting of the transport ministers in
Edmonton?
In a letter dated May 27 and faxed the day before the Edmonton
transport ministers meeting, Minister Brassard wrote as follows:
A new agreement strikes me as necessary in order to continue and
complete projects begun under the strategic highway improvement
program. It would also make it possible to initiate a new and
top-priority project to bolster the economic development of
Quebec.
He goes on to add:
Recent statements by Minister Massé when in the
Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean and north shore regions open the door to
new negotiations on highways 175 and 169 in the Laurentides
wildlife reserve, as well as highway 389.
At the end of his letter, Minister Brassard stressed his
availability to discuss a new strategic highway improvement
program with his federal counterpart at the Edmonton meeting.
How then are we to interpret the words of the Minister of
Transport for Canada, when he neglects to mention the existence
of this letter or its contents, and claims Minister Brassard did
not mention highway 175 to him in Edmonton? The least one can
say is that his words are not very transparent, and hide his
inability to act on this.
What is clear, however, is that Quebec is prepared to negotiate
a new SHIP agreement. The Government of Quebec will, in
December 1998, table the conclusion to an opportunity study for
a divided four-lane highway in the Laurentian wildlife sanctuary,
which includes a section on funding possibilities.
From what the minister has said, are we to conclude that, if the
Government of Quebec decides to go ahead with a four-lane
highway, the federal government is prepared to fund its share of
the project?
1825
In the short term, the people of Quebec and more particularly
the people in my riding would like to know whether the minister
is prepared to start new negotiations for a new SHIP agreement.
I have the following questions for the minister. First, I would
like to know whether he convinced his cabinet colleagues to
increase funding for the national highway system, as his
provincial counterparts have asked, or whether, on the contrary,
he was turned down. Second, if cabinet is open to his request,
would the minister tell me when he intends to give his officials
the go-ahead to begin bipartite negotiations to conclude a new
SHIP agreement?
These are clear and precise questions. I ask the parliamentary
secretary to answer my questions directly, because, like me, the
people in the riding of Jonquière want to know whether the
federal government is prepared to invest in repairing the roads
in Quebec and thus return the millions of dollars it collected
with its 1.5 cent tax on gasoline.
[English]
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, first
of all let me thank the hon. member for Jonquière for her
interest in the national highway system. I apologize for reading
this reply in English but if I were to read it in French, it
would take too long.
The federal government has recognized for some time that a
significant additional effort will be required to maintain and
upgrade Canada's national highway system.
As the minister stated in response to this question on June 4,
the minister of transport for Quebec did not raise the question
of funding for highway 175 during the Edmonton meeting, but he
did raise the matter shortly afterward. Also he raised the
subject of this highway in a letter dated May 27 in a broader
perspective.
Transport Canada officials are presently looking at all the
issues that were raised in the letter and the minister will be
responding to that letter in the near future. In the meantime,
the federal government will continue to work closely with all
provinces, including Quebec.
If we succeed in developing a new funding program for the
national highway system, highway 175 will undoubtedly be eligible
for funding by the federal government if the Government of Quebec
also agreed that it was a priority.
I would ask the member to convey my regards to my friends in
Jonquière. I greatly enjoyed the month that I spent there.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The motion to adjourn the
House is now deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly, this
House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m., pursuant to
Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 6.26 p.m.)