EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 128
CONTENTS
Tuesday, September 29, 1998
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
1000
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CRIMINAL RECORDS ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jay Hill |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PETITIONS
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Marriage
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Marlene Catterall |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CRTC
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Marlene Catterall |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Multilateral Agreement on Investment
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Marlene Catterall |
1005
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Marriage
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Lee Morrison |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-68
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Lee Morrison |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Marriage
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Tom Wappel |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Dale Johnston |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-68
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Darrel Stinson |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Young Offenders Act
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jack Ramsay |
1010
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-68
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jack Ramsay |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Marriage
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jack Ramsay |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Property Rights
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jack Ramsay |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gar Knutson |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | DNA IDENTIFICATION ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-3—Time Allocation Motion
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Don Boudria |
1055
(Division 230)
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion agreed to
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Third Reading
|
1100
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Lynn Myers |
1105
1110
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ghislain Lebel |
1115
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain |
1120
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
1125
1130
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain |
1135
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nick Discepola |
1140
1145
1150
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Judi Longfield |
1155
1200
1205
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Steve Mahoney |
1210
1215
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Abbott |
1220
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Abbott |
1225
1230
1235
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Marlene Catterall |
1240
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
1245
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul DeVillers |
1250
1255
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Hart |
1300
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Randy White |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Bryden |
1305
1310
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
1315
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Hart |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Randy White |
1320
1325
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Derek Lee |
1330
1335
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jack Ramsay |
1340
1345
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jerry Pickard |
1350
1355
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | SUPPLEMENTARY REPORT OF THE AUDITOR GENERAL OF
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HUMANITARIANS
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jerry Pickard |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | FIRST MINISTERS CONFERENCE
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
1400
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ARTHRITIS
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEALTH
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Bev Desjarlais |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | WILLIAM HANCOX
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John McKay |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE ENVIRONMENT
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. David Pratt |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE SENATE
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Val Meredith |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | JOHN EAKINS
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John O'Reilly |
1405
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE LATE PRIVATE GILLES DESMARAIS
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Benoît Serré |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | SCRAPIE
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Odina Desrochers |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | VICTIMS OF VIOLENCE
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chuck Cadman |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | SOCIÉTÉ SAINT-JEAN-BAPTISTE
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Denis Paradis |
1410
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | INTERNATIONAL YEAR OF THE OCEAN
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MAISON PARENT-ROBACK
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Marlene Jennings |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | JUSTICE
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Casey |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | LAND MINES
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ted McWhinney |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | VETERANS AFFAIRS
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Mark Muise |
1415
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Preston Manning |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Preston Manning |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Preston Manning |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Monte Solberg |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Monte Solberg |
1420
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Crête |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Crête |
1425
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Alexa McDonough |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Alexa McDonough |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
1430
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Mike Scott |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Mike Scott |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Michel Gauthier |
1435
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Michel Gauthier |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | SOCIAL INSURANCE NUMBERS
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Williams |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Williams |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
1440
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Serge Cardin |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Serge Cardin |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | APEC SUMMIT
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bob Mills |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bob Mills |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | SCRAPIE
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Hélène Alarie |
1445
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | STEEL INDUSTRY
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Carmen Provenzano |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Sergio Marchi |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | APEC SUMMIT
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Miss Deborah Grey |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
1450
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Miss Deborah Grey |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvon Godin |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvon Godin |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | APEC SUMMIT
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
1455
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | SCRAPIE
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Denis Coderre |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | FISHERIES
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gary Lunn |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. David Anderson |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CHILEAN REFUGEES
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Réal Ménard |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lucienne Robillard |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PHARMACEUTICALS
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
1500
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PRESENCE IN GALLERY
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | The Speaker |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE LATE GILLES ROCHELEAU
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
1505
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Marcel Massé |
1510
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Rahim Jaffer |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. André Harvey |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE LATE PAUL TARDIF
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Eugène Bellemare |
1515
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Lee Morrison |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Odina Desrochers |
1520
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Jones |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | DNA IDENTIFICATION ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-3. Third reading
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Rob Anders |
1525
1530
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gurbax Singh Malhi |
1535
1540
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Val Meredith |
1545
1550
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Lou Sekora |
1555
1600
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Darrel Stinson |
1605
1610
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Shaughnessy Cohen |
1615
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Keith Martin |
1620
1625
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Bonwick |
1630
1635
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gerry Ritz |
1640
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Goldring |
1645
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Suspension of Sitting
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Marlene Catterall |
1710
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Sitting resumed
|
1745
(Division 231)
(Division 232)
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADA SMALL BUSINESS FINANCING ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-53. Second reading
|
(Division 233)
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Amendment negatived
|
1750
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CRIMINAL RECORDS ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-284. Second reading
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gerry Ritz |
1755
1800
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Lynn Myers |
1805
1810
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
1815
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Diane St-Jacques |
1820
1825
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Grant McNally |
1830
1835
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Eric Lowther |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Division deemed demanded and deferred
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Railways
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Solomon |
1840
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Stan Dromisky |
1845
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Employment Insurance
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvon Godin |
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Bonnie Brown |
1850
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ENVIRONMENT
|
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Charles Caccia |
1855
![V](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Paddy Torsney |
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 128
![](/web/20061116192935im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/crest2.gif)
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Tuesday, September 29, 1998
The House met at 10 a.m.
Prayers
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
1000
[English]
CRIMINAL RECORDS ACT
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, there have been consultations among the parties and I
believe you will find unanimous consent for the following motion.
I move:
That following the conclusion of debate on Bill C-284, standing
in the name of the member for Calgary Centre, the question be
deemed put, a recorded division requested and deferred to the
completion of Government Orders on Tuesday, October 6.
The Deputy Speaker: Does the hon. member have the
unanimous consent of the House to propose this motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to)
* * *
PETITIONS
MARRIAGE
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have several petitions to present today. The first
petition draws to the attention of the House the definition of
marriage as the majority of Canadians understand it.
Accordingly, the petitioners call upon parliament to enact Bill
C-225 to amend the Marriage Act and the Interpretation Act to
define marriage as being between a single male and a single
female.
CRTC
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the second petition comes from a large number of
constituents and concerns the decision of the Canadian
Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission not to licence
four religious television broadcasters. The petitioners call
upon parliament to review the mandate of the CRTC and direct the
CRTC to encourage the licensing of religious broadcasters.
MULTILATERAL AGREEMENT ON INVESTMENT
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the final petition I wish to present relates to the
multilateral agreement on investment. The petitioners request
parliament to impose a moratorium on Canadian participation in
MAI negotiations until a full public debate has taken place.
1005
MARRIAGE
Mr. Lee Morrison (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I have two petitions to present this morning. The first
petition, with 175 signatures, comes from my constituency,
primarily from the districts of Leader, Prelate and Mendham in
Saskatchewan.
The petitioners wish to point out that the concept of marriage
is a voluntary union of an unmarried male and an unmarried female
and that it is the duty of parliament to ensure that marriage as
it has been known and understood in Canada should be preserved.
The petitioners therefore call upon parliament to enact Bill
C-225, an act to amend the Marriage Act and the Interpretation
Act so as to define in statute that a marriage can only be
entered into between a single male and a single female.
BILL C-68
Mr. Lee Morrison (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the second petition comes primarily from residents of
Mount Albert, Ontario.
The petitioners call upon parliament to recognize that Bill C-68
was supported by misleading statistical data when it was
presented to parliament, that there is no evidence that the
criminal use of firearms is impeded by restrictive firearms
legislation, that the enforcement of Bill C-68 would be a major
burden on police officers and that the search and seizure
provisions of Bill C-68 would constitute a breach of traditional
civil rights and would be an affront to all law-abiding
Canadians.
The petitioners therefore call upon parliament to repeal Bill
C-68 and all associated regulations with respect to firearms and
ammunition and pass new legislation designed to severely penalize
the criminal use of any weapon.
This brings the tally to 4,026 signatures on petitions of this
nature which I have recently presented in the House.
MARRIAGE
Mr. Tom Wappel (Scarborough Southwest, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have seven petitions, all on the same subject matter.
They total approximately 450 signatures.
The first petition comes from my riding of Scarborough
Southwest. The others are from New Westminster, British
Columbia; Calgary, Alberta; Saskatoon, Saskatchewan; Winnipeg,
Manitoba; LaSalle, Quebec; and Lower Sackville and Fall River,
Nova Scotia.
All of the petitions call upon parliament to enact my Bill
C-225, an act to amend the Marriage Act and the Interpretation
Act so as to define in statute that which is already in federal
common law, namely that a marriage can only be entered into
between a single male and a single female.
Mr. Dale Johnston (Wetaskiwin, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I have
a petition to present on behalf of residents of Wetaskiwin and
other areas in central Alberta. The petition deals with the
concept of marriage as only being a voluntary union between a
single male and a single female.
The petitioners call upon parliament to enact Bill C-225, an act
to amend the Marriage Act and the Interpretation Act so as to
define in statute that a marriage can only be entered into
between a single male and a single female.
BILL C-68
Mr. Darrel Stinson (Okanagan—Shuswap, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to table a petition today from B.C.
residents who recognize that registering firearms does nothing to
fight violent crime.
The petitioners want Bill C-68 to be repealed and the money
spent on effective anti-crime measures, including prevention and
more policing.
YOUNG OFFENDERS ACT
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I would
like to present a number of petitions calling for significant
changes to the present Young Offenders Act. Over 350 petitioners
call upon parliament to make the protection of society the number
one priority in amending the Young Offenders Act through measures
such as reducing the minimum age of young offenders, publishing
violent young offenders' names, increasing the penalties for
crimes committed by youth and ensuring parental responsibility.
1010
BILL C-68
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I would
also like to put forward a number of petitions regarding the
issue of firearms registration and firearms control. Almost 150
petitioners have asked that the House repeal Bill C-68 and
redirect the funds for the registration and licensing scheme to
more effective means of reducing violent crime and improving
public safety, such as more police and crime prevention programs,
women's crisis centres, suicide prevention centres and increased
resources for fighting organized crime and street crime.
MARRIAGE
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, 70 of my
constituents have asked me to present their petition supporting
Bill C-225 which would define in statute that a marriage can only
be entered into between a single male and a single female.
PROPERTY RIGHTS
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I would
like to present a petition asking the House to support private
member's Bill C-304 which would strengthen the protection of
property rights in the country.
* * *
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Gar Knutson (Parliamentary Secretary to Prime Minister,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I ask that all questions be allowed to
stand.
The Deputy Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[Translation]
DNA IDENTIFICATION ACT
BILL C-3—TIME ALLOCATION MOTION
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I move:
That in relation to Bill C-3, an act respecting DNA
identification and to make consequential amendments to the
Criminal Code and other Acts, not more than one further sitting
day shall be allotted to the consideration of the third reading
stage of the bill and, 15 minutes before the expiry of the time
provided for the government business on the allotted day of the
third reading consideration of the said bill, any proceedings
before the House shall be interrupted, if required for the
purpose of this order, and in turn every question necessary for
the disposal of the third reading stage of the bill shall be put
forthwith and successively without further debate or amendment.
The Deputy Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the
motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Deputy Speaker: All those in favour will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Deputy Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Deputy Speaker: In my opinion the nays have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Deputy Speaker: Call in the members.
1055
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Anderson
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
|
Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
|
Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
| Caccia
|
Calder
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Catterall
|
Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
| Chrétien
(Saint - Maurice)
|
Clouthier
| Coderre
| Cohen
| Collenette
|
Copps
| Cullen
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
|
Dion
| Discepola
| Dromisky
| Drouin
|
Duhamel
| Easter
| Eggleton
| Finestone
|
Finlay
| Folco
| Fontana
| Fry
|
Gallaway
| Godfrey
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Hubbard
| Ianno
|
Iftody
| Jackson
| Jennings
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Leung
| Lincoln
| Longfield
|
MacAulay
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Manley
| Marchi
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Massé
|
McCormick
| McGuire
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McWhinney
|
Mifflin
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
| Mitchell
|
Murray
| Myers
| Nault
| Normand
|
O'Brien
(Labrador)
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
|
Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
|
Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
|
Pillitteri
| Pratt
| Proud
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Robillard
|
Rock
| Saada
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Sekora
|
Serré
| Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Whelan
|
Wilfert
| Wood – 138
|
NAYS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Alarie
| Anders
|
Asselin
| Axworthy
(Saskatoon – Rosetown – Biggar)
| Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
| Bailey
|
Bellehumeur
| Benoit
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
|
Bigras
| Blaikie
| Brien
| Brison
|
Cadman
| Cardin
| Casson
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
|
Crête
| Cummins
| Davies
| de Savoye
|
Debien
| Desjarlais
| Desrochers
| Doyle
|
Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duceppe
| Dumas
| Duncan
|
Earle
| Elley
| Epp
| Gauthier
|
Gilmour
| Girard - Bujold
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
|
Gouk
| Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Guimond
|
Hanger
| Harris
| Hart
| Harvey
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Jaffer
| Johnston
|
Jones
| Keddy
(South Shore)
| Konrad
| Laliberte
|
Lalonde
| Laurin
| Lebel
| Lefebvre
|
Loubier
| Lunn
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mancini
|
Manning
| Marceau
| Marchand
| Mark
|
Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Mayfield
| McDonough
| McNally
|
Mercier
| Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
|
Muise
| Nystrom
| Obhrai
| Pankiw
|
Penson
| Perron
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Power
|
Price
| Ramsay
| Reynolds
| Riis
|
Ritz
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
| Scott
(Skeena)
|
Solomon
| Stinson
| St - Jacques
| Stoffer
|
Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Venne
| Wasylycia - Leis
|
Wayne
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| Williams – 103
|
PAIRED
Members
Alcock
| Byrne
| Canuel
| Dalphond - Guiral
|
Gagliano
| Gagnon
| Grose
| Marleau
|
St - Hilaire
| Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
|
The Deputy Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
[English]
THIRD READING
The House resumed from September 21, of the
motion that Bill C-3, an act respecting DNA identification and to
make consequential amendments to the Criminal Code and other
acts, be read the third time and passed; and of the amendment.
The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Perhaps hon. members
who are carrying on discussions in the Chamber could have them
outside so the business of the House could resume. I am sure
there are hon. members who wish to debate this bill.
1100
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I will be sharing my time with the Parliamentary Secretary to
Minister of Labour.
I have been closely following both sides of this debate and I
rise today to speak in support of Bill C-3. As the former
chairman of the Waterloo regional police I have a keen interest
in this area and in this debate.
We have heard from several hon. members that a DNA bank will
increase public protection for all Canadians. The police
community has told us that a data bank will help law enforcement
agencies identify suspects where they have no leads, that it will
assist in identifying offenders who commit serious crimes across
all police jurisdictions in Canada, and that it will help prevent
future violent crime.
To ensure the police have the most effective tool possible Bill
C-3 has been drafted in accordance with the Constitution. Bill
C-3 will authorize the courts to order persons convicted of
designated offences to provide DNA samples for inclusion in the
data bank. Upon conviction for a primary designated offence or a
serious violent offence the court will issue an order requiring
the offender to provide a DNA sample for the data bank, except in
the most exceptional circumstances.
In the case of a conviction for a secondary designated offence
which includes robbery and break and enter, offences that
Clifford Olson for example was convicted of in his early criminal
career, the court upon application by the crown may issue an
order for the DNA sample to be taken for data banking purposes.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. An hon. member has
the floor and it is very difficult for the Chair to hear the hon.
member because of the loud conversations that are being carried
on in the House.
I remind hon. members that there are lobbies where these
discussions can take place. I invite members who are having
discussions to please carry them on outside the Chamber so those
who wish to hear the debate will be able to do so. The hon.
member for Waterloo—Wellington has the floor.
Mr. Lynn Myers: In deciding whether to make an order in
this instance the judge will consider the offender's criminal
record, the nature of the offence and the circumstances
surrounding its commission which are all relevant factors in
identifying violent predators at a very early stage.
The data bank will capture penitentiary inmates who pose a high
risk of future violent reoffending. Bill C-3 will authorize DNA
samples to be taken retroactively from designated dangerous
offenders, repeat sex offenders and serial murderers. The last
group of offenders was added to Bill C-3 by the Standing
Committee on Justice and Human Rights in response to concerns
that offenders like Clifford Olson should be captured by the data
bank.
By targeting offenders already in custody the data bank will
offer the hope of solving long outstanding crimes where police
have no leads. It will make the most dangerous offenders think
twice about committing a violent offence again because their
genetic imprints will be in the data bank for future and quick
identification.
The Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights studied Bill
C-3 in depth and supported it. Members of the House have closely
examined it and have had an opportunity to study the expert legal
opinions concerning its constitutionality. The legal experts
have advised us that Bill C-3 in its current form is consistent
with Canada's Constitution. However some members continue to
discount this fact. They insist on delaying passage of the bill
by repeatedly arguing that it can be easily amended. In so doing
they are forgetting about the supreme court and the Canadian
Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Amending the bill to permit the taking of DNA samples at the
time of arrest or charge is a radical proposal that disregards
the basic rights and freedoms guaranteed by the charter. Any
accused person in Canada has the right to be presumed innocent
and protected from unreasonable search and seizure. Bill C-3
reflects a clear statement from our highest court that the taking
of DNA samples constitutes a search and seizure which requires
prior judicial authorization. Before the police can search
anyone's home or business premises they must first obtain
judicial authorization to do so.
1105
A search of a person's bodily substances is much more serious
than searching a home or business because it interferes with
bodily integrity and undermines human dignity. Therefore the
taking of a DNA sample for law enforcement purposes demands high
standards of justification. Taking a sample on the off chance
that it might help the police crack an old and cold case simply
does not meet those standards.
I emphasize that the requirement for prior judicial
authorization before DNA samples can be seized following
conviction is one of the key features of Bill C-3. It ensures
that the charter rights of all Canadians are protected. We must
not overlook the fact that the police already have authority to
take a DNA sample from a person for investigative purposes at the
time of arrest or charge, or at any other time, as long as they
first obtain a warrant allowing them to do so.
The DNA warrant legislation has been commended by the Supreme
Court of Canada and has survived all constitutional challenges to
date. The most important reason the scheme has survived is that
it provides for judicial oversight of the collection of DNA
samples.
We must be mindful that the police have never had an automatic
right to search and seize in Canada. This is because we have
placed a high premium on our reasonable expectation of privacy,
on the security and the dignity of the person, and on the right
to be free from unnecessary state interference with those rights.
It is these basic rights that make Canada one of the best
countries in which to live.
Bill C-3 builds on the solid foundation of the DNA warrant
scheme and provides the police with the added capacity to compare
DNA samples obtained from crime scenes with DNA samples from
convicted offenders.
Last week, for example, we heard the misguided suggestion that
taking samples upon charge would be constitutionally defensible.
It is not. On the contrary, the legal experts have clearly and
emphatically stated that this is not true.
Last May the government publicly released independent legal
opinions on this issue from three of the most experienced legal
minds in the country: former Justice Martin Taylor of the
British Columbia Court of Appeal, former Chief Justice Charles
Dubin of the Ontario Court of Appeal and former Chief Justice
Claude Bisson of the Quebec Court of Appeal.
These opinions are comprehensive and fully consistent with the
views of the Canadian Bar Association and representatives of the
Ontario attorney general, the New Brunswick attorney general, the
Privacy Commissioner of Canada and the federal Department of
Justice.
I would now like to turn to what these eminent judges had to say
about the proposal being put forth by the police community. I
quote the hon. Martin Taylor when he said:
—I am of the opinion that legislative extension of police
authority under Bill C-3 to sanction the taking of DNA samples
without judicial warrant in the case of persons charged or
arrested but not tried and convicted would be held contrary to
the guarantees contained in one or more of ss. 7, 8 and 11(d) of
the charter, would not be saved by s. 1 of the charter, and would
therefore be found unconstitutional and of no force or effect
under s. 52 of the Constitution Act.
The hon. Claude Bisson said the following in his legal opinion:
An enactment authorizing—the taking of bodily sample without a
prior judicial authorization will not be, under the charter, a
reasonable exercise of the power of parliament.
Therefore, the guaranteed rights of a person by the charter
having been infringed, the legislation would be invalidated
because section 1 of the charter would not save such
legislation—.There is no equation to be made between
the—taking of fingerprints upon arrest and the taking—also
upon arrest and without judicial authorization—of bodily
samples.
Fingerprinting is not a search and seizure; the taking of bodily
substances and samples is and, as such, should not be performed
without the greatest safeguards, the first of it being a judicial
intervention.
Finally, this is what the hon. Charles Dubin concluded: “the
proposal to allow automatic seizure of bodily samples for DNA
analysis upon arrest appears to me to serve little social
purpose”.
The fingerprinting and DNA warrant provisions that already exist
allow proper identification of arrested persons and provide
police with the ability to obtain samples for DNA analysis from
an individual who they reasonably believe is a party to a
designated offence.
The only additional purpose of automatic seizure of bodily
samples on arrest would appear to be to increase a pool of
contributors to the DNA data bank.
1110
However the significance of this law and the enforcement
interest, based on the chance of a match between a person
arrested and an unsolved crime, pales when compared with the
intrusive nature of a seizure of bodily samples and does not
outweigh the need for prior judicial authorization.
As parliamentarians we cannot dismiss these legal opinions as
being overly cautious, paranoid or even out of touch with the
frontline police objective to better protect the public.
Let me conclude by saying we all share the goal of better public
protection for all Canadians. We also recognize the need to
implement the DNA data bank quickly to prevent violent crime.
Through the comprehensive review of Bill C-3 by the standing
committee, our review of the legal opinions of the eminent judges
and the extensive debate in the House the government has listened
to all sides of the debate. In the end the government has
carefully balanced the competing views we have heard to develop
proposals that will uphold the Constitution.
We have a responsibility to give the police a tool they can work
with, but we also have the responsibility to put forward a
balanced piece of legislation that will not be thrown out after
the first constitutional challenge. Bill C-3 strikes this proper
balance.
I would encourage all members of the House to join me in
supporting Bill C-3 so we can move forward in implementing an
effective DNA data bank for all Canadians.
[Translation]
Mr. Ghislain Lebel (Chambly, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I listened with
great interest to what my colleague said, still I have a major
concern about this bill.
The principles put forward are genuine, right and
straightforward. The problem with this kind of evidence is that
it is hard to contradict or rebut by ordinary citizens or
lawyers defending themselves. This engineering evidence is so
elaborate and complicated that it has to be made by a scientific
consulting firm. Such means of rebuttal are generally not
available to the defence. That is the danger presented by this
kind of legislation.
I am totally in favour of the principles, but we must ask the
question.
Recently, in Quebec, evidence was fabricated by crooked cops in
the well-known case of the Matticks brothers. So, I wonder how
the defence could rebut evidence like what would be required
under Bill C-3 if it were dealing with, say, officers like the
ones involved in the case I just referred to. That is my only
concern. As for the rest, the principles, I am in favour.
I would therefore ask for reassurances concerning the tools
available to an honest defence to rebut evidence made by the
crown on the basis of Bill C-3.
[English]
Mr. Lynn Myers: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member
opposite for the question. I certainly agree with his premise
that this is a very complex issue and one that requires real
balancing on the part of the government in this important area.
Sometimes it is very tricky to ensure the competing interests
are balanced in a way that is fair and equitable, but I think in
the great scheme of things we as a government have been able to
do this.
In response to part of the hon. member's question, through my
experience of 10 years with the Waterloo regional police I can
say that the police of the country are great professionals who do
a great job on behalf of all Canadians, wherever they may be. The
police do the type of work that all of us should be proud of not
only as parliamentarians but as people who live in this great
land of ours, Canada.
It is absolutely crucial that we support the police whenever and
however possible, knowing full well that they put their lives on
the line for each and every one of us.
1115
Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister
of Labour, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to lend my
support to Bill C-3, the DNA identification act.
Bill C-3, as it stands now, is a good first step in increasing
public safety for all Canadians. Protecting Canadians is and
always has been a priority for this government. I feel that the
DNA database that will be created as a result of this bill will
help police fulfil both aspects of their jobs. It will help them
to protect Canadians while upholding the law.
Extensive consultation went into the creation of this bill. Law
enforcement officers, legal experts and those concerned with the
protection of privacy all contributed to Bill C-3. The bill has
been drafted to reflect their contributions and their concerns.
Granted, there are those who argued and who continue to argue
that Bill C-3 needs to be stronger, that DNA samples should be
taken at the time of arrest. I have felt this way too. However,
in responding to this argument there are a few things to keep in
mind.
First, in order for this DNA databank to be effective in
increasing public safety, it must be developed in accordance with
the Constitution. One former justice and two former chief
justices all agreed that taking DNA samples on arrest or charge
without prior judicial authorization would be unconstitutional.
These legal experts and others have all said that if Bill C-3
were amended to allow DNA samples to be taken at the time of
arrest or charge the legislation would be found to be
unconstitutional.
If this bill were to violate the Constitution it would fail,
criminals would go free and this entire process of researching,
drafting, amending and debating Bill C-3 would have been a
complete waste of our time and of taxpayer money.
Second, we must remember that the Criminal Code already allows
the police to take a DNA sample from a person at the time of
charge or any other time as long as they obtain a warrant to do
so. This legislation introduced in 1995 has been praised by the
Supreme Court of Canada and has survived constitutional
challenges to date.
Bill C-3 builds on the existing legislation by allowing samples
to be taken from individuals once they are convicted of serious
offences, including murder, sexual assault or break and enter,
all heinous crimes.
The bill also allows for samples to be taken retroactively from
those deemed to be dangerous offenders and from those convicted
of more than one sexual offence or murder. These are the
criminals who could very well have committed crimes other than
those they were convicted for.
We owe it to the victims and to their families to explore every
single option in catching the criminals who hurt them. The
retroactive taking of samples will enable us to see if the
criminal responsible has already been caught. Just think of the
peace of mind that victims and their families would have once
they knew that the criminal responsible for hurting them or their
loved ones had already been convicted and was behind bars.
Third, taking fingerprints and the collection of DNA samples are
not the same. We all know that police take fingerprints at the
time of arrest. However, the Supreme Court of Canada considers
the taking of bodily samples to be a search. To allow a sample
to be taken based on a police officer's belief that a person is
guilty of a given crime without the permission of a judge would
be a warrantless search or seizure and therefore
unconstitutional.
Finally, Bill C-3 is an important first step. This is ground
breaking legislation that requires a cautious approach. Once
this has been put into practice and tested we may be able to
proceed further. Taking samples for the databank when a criminal
is convicted as opposed to when a suspect is charged will not
prevent the police from doing their job. On the contrary, it
will provide them with an important and effective investigative
tool that will allow them to do their job which is, as I
mentioned previously, to protect Canadians and public safety and
to uphold the law.
Bill C-3 is a good start. Under this legislation young
offenders will be treated in the same way as adults with the
exception that their DNA profiles will be retained for a shorter
period of time.
This is in keeping with the length of time for which their police
record is retained.
1120
Bill C-3 allows law enforcement officers in Canada to co-operate
with their colleagues in other countries for the purpose of
criminal investigation. This will allow Canadian police to
access information in foreign DNA databanks to help solve crimes
committed here in Canada and vice-versa.
As a parent I would never support a piece of legislation that I
felt would put my family at risk. As the member of parliament
for Guelph—Wellington I would not support Bill C-3 if I thought
it would not protect my neighbours and my community. I am not
one to be soft on crime or on criminals. I firmly believe that
people who are guilty should serve hard time if they have
committed a serious offence.
However, I also believe that a person is innocent until proven
guilty. Canada is a democracy based on the principles of peace,
order and good government. The UN has recognized our great
nation as being the best country in the world because of the wide
range of opportunity and high standard of living we provide to
our citizens. To create a law that would violate someone's basic
human rights would not only be unconstitutional, it would be
un-Canadian. That is something I could not support.
This is a good piece of legislation, one that will work to
further protect public safety for all Canadians and one that will
withstand legal scrutiny. It will make the streets of
Guelph—Wellington safer for my family, my neighbours and my
entire community. It will do the same for all communities right
across this great land of ours.
It is an important first step, one that I hope the government
will build on and I look forward to all members of parliament
supporting the legislation.
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise today to voice my opposition to Bill C-3, an act respecting
DNA identification.
This morning we saw a very sad spectacle in the House of Commons
where a closure motion was put on Bill C-3. If I remember
correctly, when those members were on this side in opposition
they were the ones screaming the loudest when the former Tory
government did the same thing with closure motions. Today what do
they do? The same thing, they put closure. No wonder Canadians
find respect for politicians at the bottom of professions.
The parliamentary secretary did mention certain things as being
the first step. She said Bill C-3 was just a first step.
However, as with Bill C-68, it will be watered down to where it
actually becomes ineffective. She says this bill if thrown out
would be a waste of taxpayer money. This watered down bill is a
waste of taxpayer money because was does it do? It does a half
job. It does not give our law enforcement agencies the full
tools they need to fight crime.
She has taken the position that she is tough on crime. The
record of being tough on crime is not there. The Young Offenders
Act is watered down. Bill C-68 is watered down. Bill C-68 has
been changed to a degree where it is supposed to stop crime but
it is not, it is infringing on the rights of Canadians.
The government transforms simple legislation into the most
complicated legislation costing Canadian taxpayers a lot of money
and does not do the job it is supposed to do.
1125
The parliamentary secretary said Canada is the best place to
live in the world as stated by the United Nations. Yes, when you
look at other factors, but Canadians today are demanding that
streets be safe. On that this government has a terrible record.
I am firmly committed to restoring confidence in our justice
system. Canadians need to know what it is to have a true sense
of security. This can be achieved only by strengthening our law
enforcement agencies. How do you do that? By giving them all
the tools they need to protect and apprehend the perpetrators of
the most violent crimes.
DNA identification is an example of one of those desperately
needed tools. If this process is used to its full potential, DNA
identification could very well be the single most important
development in fighting crime since the introduction of
fingerprinting.
We fully support the concept of DNA identification because it
gives our law enforcement authorities one more weapon in their
battle to combat crime. However, if Bill C-3 is passed unamended
it will give Canadians a false sense of security and therefore I
cannot support this inadequate piece of legislation.
The bottom line is that Bill C-3 has such limited scope that I
cannot in good conscience support it. Bill C-3 requires those
convicted of certain designated offences to provide samples of
bodily substances for DNA analysis. The problem with this is
that the offender must be convicted prior to the processing being
instituted. This will result in the databank being of limited
use to police for suspects and persons charged.
The Canadian Police Association has raised concerns over this
specific issue too. Police officers rightly point out that
offenders arrested and charged with an offence would likely flee
while on bail if they knew that DNA linking them to other
offences would be obtained on conviction.
The government has stated this is within the charter of rights
and the Constitution. I say it is more important to give tools
to ensure that victims have more rights than criminals. That is
extremely important to recognize. I say to the Supreme Court of
Canada as well remember it is more important to recognize the
rights of Canadians and victims than it is to recognize the
rights of criminals which this government keeps doing time after
time and destroying a good piece of legislation dealing with that
problem.
Bill C-3 has offences that are split into two groups. The first
group automatically leads to DNA testing. Crimes listed under the
first category include sexual assault, murder and sexual
exploitation. The second group permits seizure only if the court
is satisfied that to do so is in the best interests of the
administration of justice.
Here is the problem. This is left to the courts again and we
know the courts have been lenient with criminals. The courts
have been looking at the rights of the criminals over the rights
of the victims and Canadians to make the streets safe.
We see that Bill C-3 has limited applicability in that it
applies only to certain offences. However, even for this limited
list it is not guaranteed that the taking of DNA will be
authorized. It is clear that an effective, no-nonsense system of
DNA identification is desperately needed in this country. Does
Bill C-3 under the current act fulfil this needed desire?
1130
By having a system that only applies to convicted felons who
commit a narrow definition of listed crimes, we are truly doing a
disservice to all Canadians seeking safer streets. The fact of
the matter is that DNA is a modern identification tool which is
to the 1990s what fingerprinting was to the early 1900s.
Many American states have DNA data banks, including South Dakota
which takes DNA testing once a charge has been laid. A few years
back Great Britain implemented a system that called for DNA
seizure after a charge had been laid and the list of offences is
far wider than what Bill C-3 covers.
We should never allow ourselves to be so stubborn that we could
not turn our backs on a good idea simply because it is not a made
in Canada idea. Today we fingerprint all those who are charged
for a crime.
The government has been saying, and this is where I differ, that
a fingerprint is not a seizure. A fingerprint is from our body.
In here it is saying that taking bodily fluids is a seizure. For
the sake of crime and making streets safe, it is a justifiable
seizure. If this is the case then why can this government not
expand the very little role it has given to the DNA collection?
While it may be true that DNA seizure involves the invasion of
personal privacy, it does serve a greater role in solving and
controlling crime.
At the end of the day parliamentarians must be able to look
Canadians straight in the eyes and tell them that we have done
everything in our power to protect them. I do not see how we can
do this by voting in favour of this legislation.
Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister
of Labour, Lib.): Madam Speaker, the past speaker referred to
the fact that the Reform Party cannot support this piece of
legislation. That makes me very sad. This group of people claim
to be law conscious and believe that we must move forward to try
to do what we can to protect society. I understand this has been
a very big plank in the Reform Party's platform. Again we see it
breaking promises and moving away from the good of Canadians.
That is a very sad thing.
As a government we know we have to enact laws that will
withstand constitutional challenges. We are told that at this
time this bill will do that. It is important to do that. The
Reform Party says to go ahead. It will do anything. It does not
matter. It does not matter if it is legal. As a government we
cannot behave like that. We must work within a legal framework.
We must be respectful of the law. We must be respectful of
Canadian citizens whom we represent.
It is strange that the hon. member talked about the best place
in the world to live. However he said it with such disdain and
negativity. The Reform Party has made it also a plank in its
platform to deal with the dark side, to fearmonger, to not move
ahead. That is unfortunate because we cannot continue to do
that. We have to move ahead. We have to do things that are
right for Canadians and that will help them.
Reform says that this is a false sense of security. My question
for the hon. member is, how could Reform possibly not support DNA
identification for criminals?
Mr. Deepak Obhrai: Madam Speaker, it looks like my speech
went over the top of my colleague's understanding.
We said yes, we believe in this concept. We agree that we need
tools to fight crime. The problem with the DNA bill is that it
is a watered down bill that will not give us these tools.
We support this concept. We want the government to make this
bill tougher so that Canadians feel protected.
1135
It is interesting that my colleague on the other side says that
we should stay within the law. In the last week and a half we
have seen the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance not
obeying the law of the land, specifically the Minister of Finance
when he—
Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point
of order. That statement is unfounded and untrue.
Mr. Deepak Obhrai: Madam Speaker, we have seen the
Minister of Finance trying to go into the EI fund to use it for
other purposes even though that is not allowed under the law and
is illegal. It is quite surprising that my colleague on the
other side would not recognize that.
In answer to the hon. member's question, I repeat again that the
Reform Party supports the concept of DNA testing but it has a
problem with this bill. If this legislation is made really
tough, then the government will get our support.
[Translation]
Mr. Nick Discepola (Vaudreuil—Soulanges, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
over the last few months, I have followed this debate with great
interest. As members of this House were told last week, Bill C-3
will help the police in a number of ways, across the country and
even internationally.
Having a DNA data bank will provide police with a strong tool in
its fight against crime. It will also allow Canada to be a
leader in the use of DNA identification technology and to then
establish a national DNA data bank.
The Solicitor General of Canada deserves to be congratulated for
the caution he showed in asking that the bill be carefully
reviewed by a committee of the House made up of members from all
parties. Personally, I also congratulate him for involving
Canadians in the process, through a public debate on the
subtleties and scope of this legislation.
It is very important that Canadians be allowed to express their
views and have a say in how their government operates. This is
why the government held public consultations right across the
country, before drafting and tabling its legislation last year.
When the bill was referred to the Standing Committee on Justice
and Human Rights before second reading, the committee heard over
30 witnesses and diligently reviewed all the information
submitted.
Since it was introduced, Bill C-3 has been examined openly and
transparently. It really reflects Canadians' viewpoints.
Genetic analysis is a powerful investigative tool, and the bill
provides strong measures to protect against its possible abuse.
The government has heard testimony from top experts, who said
that genetic evidence can reveal much more about an individual
than a breath sample, a finger print or even a blood sample.
Given the power of genetic analyses, the issue of privacy is of
considerable concern to our government. We must therefore act
with the utmost care.
1140
As regards the protection of privacy, I would like to explain
what the government considers to be the problems and how Bill C-3
represents, in my opinion, a solid and balanced approach.
I would first like to raise the issue of keeping the samples.
Scientists have put forward solid arguments showing that
biological samples must be kept for the genetic data bank to
take advantage of future technological progress.
In addition, a forensic science expert from the RCMP told the
committee last March that significant progress had been made in
recent years in DNA identification technology.
Smaller samples, including those found in decayed matter, can
now be examined.
These technological advances prove that genetic analysis is
clearly one of the most active and rapidly evolving scientific
areas. With developments in the technology, today's DNA
profiles could become outmoded.
Bill C-3 provides therefore that samples will be kept. Canada's
national DNA data bank will thus mirror the technological
progress made the world over, and Canada will be able to send
DNA information for medical and legal purposes to other
laboratories and data banks throughout the world.
The question of who will have access to the samples and to the
DNA profiles arises.
Drawing on the bill passed in July 1995 on warrants authorizing
samples to be taken for DNA analysis, Bill C-3 includes
protective measures and provisions on these samples.
Up to now, statutory provisions on warrants have withstood all
legal challenges under the charter and have provided a solid
basis for the creation of the DNA data bank.
Bill C-3 therefore contains strict rules on biological sampling
and DNA identification and on the retention of DNA profiles in
order to protect personal information.
I repeat, personal information will be protected under this law.
The RCMP will be responsible for the secure storage of all
biological samples. Access to DNA profiles and samples will be
limited strictly to those responsible for the operation and
maintenance of the data bank.
So that information is not misused, the bill provides explicitly
that only the name associated with the profile will be supplied
to police authorities during criminal investigations.
The bill
also makes it an offence under the Criminal Code and the DNA
Identification Act to misuse any profiles or samples and
provides for criminal sanctions against offenders.
The DNA data bank will respect the right to privacy of all
innocent people at the crime scene or of law-abiding citizens who
volunteer to provide DNA samples to the police.
In fact, the bill contains provisions for the destruction of
information in the crime scene index pertaining to a victim or
individual no longer considered a suspect after a police
investigation.
This is an important safeguard designed to ensure that the data
bank does not contain the DNA profiles of innocent people.
The bill also allows those required to give samples to state
their preference as to the bodily substance to be taken.
The police must take these preferences into account, but are not
in any way obliged to act on them, being required to consider
other factors as well.
1145
For instance, the Ontario Court of Justice ruled that the taking
of hair samples violated charter provisions, and forensic
experts said that blood was best suited to DNA analysis.
Bill C-3 accordingly leaves it up to the police to decide on the
most suitable samples to be taken.
Clearly, the bill has been drafted with extreme care.
The Government of Canada is convinced of its ability to strike a
balance between public safety on the one hand and the protection
of privacy on the other. In addition to the protective measures
and sanctions set out in Bill C-3, there are other mechanisms
aimed at guaranteeing that the bill will be applied in such a
way as to maintain that balance.
Once the data bank is in operation, the Privacy Commissioner
will be able to carry out an audit at any time. He is already
authorized by the Privacy Act to monitor the use of personal
information in the hands of the federal administration.
In addition, Canadian forensic laboratories are in the process
of drawing up accreditation standards.
Once these standards are in effect, forensic laboratories can be
audited by an independent body as well, in order to guarantee
compliance with internationally recognized quality assurance
standards.
There are already provisions, such as those in the Privacy Act,
to ensure that information, including DNA information, cannot be
provided to another country unless an agreement is in place with
that country. The Privacy Act also prevents personal
information from being provided to another country for any
purpose other than law enforcement or investigation.
When the RCMP becomes responsible for the DNA bank, its
operations will have to comply with RCMP internal standards, and
these, I am proud to say, are among the most stringent in the
world.
In addition, the RCMP works in close collaboration with a number
of international groups and committees in this area, including
the FBI-sponsored Technical Group on DNA Analysis Methodology
which provides Canada with state of the art technology and makes it
possible for our country to ensure that its standards are in
line with those in effect elsewhere in the world.
I would now like to explain to you why sampling must be done at
the time of sentencing, not at the time the person is arrested
or charged, as some have proposed.
We have looked into this matter in great detail, both in the
Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights and as a
government.
During consultations on the bill, and during the committee
hearings, many individuals and groups of experts told our
government most emphatically that sampling at the time of arrest
was problematical.
DNA identification alone rarely leads to a conviction. In fact,
crime scenes do not always yield DNA evidence. A number of
factors—alibis, motives, fingerprints and eyewitness
statements—are taken into consideration in criminal cases.
However, in the face of insistence by the police community,
which asked it to consider the possibility of amending the bill,
the government consulted legal experts to find out whether
samples could be taken without a warrant when an arrest is made
or when charges are laid without contravening the provisions of
the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Three eminent former justices of the courts of appeal of Quebec,
Ontario and British Columbia considered the matter in an
independent investigation.
1150
They unanimously upheld the government's position. Under the
law, taking samples during arraignment would contravene the
provisions of the charter.
I repeat, taking samples when charges are laid would contravene
the provisions of the charter. In Canada, the accused is
presumed innocent and must be protected from all unreasonable
searches or seizures.
Let there be no doubt on this point. The government must
continue to act cautiously and with forethought in this matter.
We want to take the approach most favourable to all Canadians.
It serves no purpose to intrude in the personal privacy of
everyone arrested, when genetic imprints may not even be
necessary. There is no point pondering this question further
when the legal experts have told us on many occasions that there
would be too great a risk of a challenge under the charter.
Finally, we cannot endanger the establishment of a genetic data
bank—whose purpose is to better serve Canadians—by being over
zealous.
Sampling at sentencing will permit the effective application of
legislation and protect individual rights during a criminal
investigation.
Let us therefore pass a bill that will be effective rather than
a text that will surely not stand up to court challenges.
The police know how easily the Constitution is used to dismiss
charges.
I think that all members will share my view that it is contrary
to public safety to have cases thrown out on technicalities.
It is therefore up to all members to play a constructive role in
creating a DNA bank that will strike a balance between
protection of the public and privacy rights under the charter.
We are obviously on the right track in our fight to protect
Canadians against crime. With Bill C-3, I believe that our
government has struck the right balance.
I therefore have no hesitation in supporting this bill and I
recommend that all my colleagues in the House do likewise.
[English]
Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
I am pleased to rise and speak on Bill C-3, an act respecting DNA
identification and to make consequential amendments to the
Criminal Code and other acts. I would also like to commend my
colleague, the hon. member for Guelph—Wellington, the
Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Labour. I agree with
almost all the comments she made during her presentation this
morning.
This bill represents the second phase of the government's DNA
strategy. The first phase, Bill C-104, was put in place two and a
half years ago when amendments were made to the Criminal Code to
create a DNA warrant system. That system provides for a
provincial court judge to issue a warrant allowing police to
collect samples of bodily substances when a person is suspected
of committing a designated offence.
We heard from those on the front lines who tell us that the use
of DNA evidence has been a very powerful investigative tool. It
is already proven to be one of the most accurate methods of
obtaining solid identification in criminal investigations.
The warrant system is working well. I remind members opposite
that it can be obtained on arrest and charge. With reasonable
and probable grounds warrants will be issued.
The second phase of the DNA initiative further demonstrates that
the government is committed to fighting crime, especially violent
crime, as described in our safer communities agenda. For the
benefit of those who may not be familiar with this bill I would
like to take the opportunity to outline some of its major
components.
1155
This bill provides the legal authority for the RCMP to set up
and maintain a national DNA bank. I know that all members of
this House support the maintenance of a DNA bank.
This DNA databank will consist of two indices or databases. The
first database is called the crime scene index and will contain
DNA profiles from bodily substances found at the scene of a
crime.
The second database which is known as the convicted offenders
index will contain the DNA profiles obtained from persons
convicted of certain crimes. Police will be able to cross
reference information in one index and help one another to solve
the unsolved crimes. Hundreds of victims and their families who
thought they would never see justice done will find the justice
they seek through this legislation.
I am supporting this legislation because it is preventive in
nature. At the committee hearings Chief Brian Ford, chair of the
law amendments committee of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of
Police, said:
Madam Chair, members of the committee, we support Bill C-3. This
is important legislation and we encourage you to favourably
recommend its passage to parliament. Bill C-3 is unlike other
criminal legislation because it is fundamentally preventative in
nature. This makes Bill C-3 very special.
The theory of prevention in Bill C-3 is that when a person
actually knows that his or her DNA has been recorded this person
is unlikely to reoffend, knowing that the prospects of detection
and conviction are so high. This deterrent is pure prevention.
So in passing this bill, parliament should know that it is
preventing crime, not just giving police more tools to
investigate.
I agree with Chief Ford. Should the prevention of crime not be
our first responsibility as law makers? Our police forces need
this bill. I am an ardent supporter of the police and I am
supporting this legislation because it gives them the tools
necessary to fight crime and keep Canadian communities safe. I
know, and as I have said before, all Canadians agree that we need
a DNA databank in Canada.
I quoted Chief Ford and I would not want to mislead members of
the Canadian public. While Chief Ford indicated that this bill
was worthy of support, he also was very forceful in indicating
that the police associations feel it does not go far enough. I
have felt this also. I believe there is some merit to what they
are saying but as the member for Guelph—Wellington pointed out
earlier, have to be very mindful of our Canadian Constitution. I
am not willing to put the excellent aspects of this bill in
jeopardy through a constitutional challenge. I think that is
something we need to work out.
The main disagreements that have been articulated by Chief Ford,
Scott Newark, Neal Jessop, members of the Canadian police
associations arise when we are talking about when DNA samples are
collected. I think there is a certain amount of merit in being
able to say that when there is probable cause, whether the person
has been convicted or not, the collection of DNA samples may be
proper.
I remind members of the House that currently as a result of the
first part of legislation talking about DNA, this is available to
police. It is not automatic as they would wish but if they could
show probable cause, then the police are able under the current
warrant system to collect the DNA samples they feel they need.
They can be run with the inclusion of this new bill through a DNA
bank.
Currently police will tell us that the warrant system is working
very well but it lacks one major component and that is the actual
creation of a database. Bill C-3 creates this database that will
allow police to take what has already been working well, the
warrant system of collection, one step further.
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Members of the police association and others, most particularly
members of the Reform Party, argue that the scope of offences for
automatic DNA data banking should be expanded. I think they have
valid concerns. I would like to see the scope of those offences
for which automatic DNA testing is done expanded.
While I have a great deal of sympathy, I do not feel that the
concerns raised are enough to provide opposition to the bill. The
creation of the data bank is vital and this bill brings it to
fruition. We need to support it and, as legislators, we need to
work with the police and other law enforcement agencies to
strengthen the bill in the future. However, I think we have to
do it one step at a time. I would hate to see the bill thrown
out simply because it does not go as far as some people would
hope.
I would like to examine the proposal that DNA sampling is no
different than collecting fingerprints. I would argue very
fundamentally that while the actual process may not seem
intrusive, the data collected is very different from that of a
fingerprint. A fingerprint is one form of identification and it
is very narrow in its scope. Once we have collected a DNA
sample, then a person's entire genetic make-up is available for
one and all.
This also raises other concerns. I have reviewed much of the
testimony that went on at the committee meetings. I would remind
members that this debate is not one day in the House of Commons.
This has been going on for a long period of time. The scope of
the committee has made it possible for all members from all
parties to talk to the minister and to cross-examine witnesses.
They have raised some very valid points, but I continue to say
that as much as I support many of the points and would like to
see this bill go a lot further, that is not sufficient to delay
passage of a very important tool in the hands of police
authorities.
Madam Speaker, how much time do I have left?
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Eleven minutes.
Mrs. Judi Longfield: Madam Speaker, I will not be using
all of the 11 minutes remaining.
The results of DNA testing could bring some very difficult
questions forward. If as a result of DNA testing it was
discovered that someone had AIDS or another communicable disease,
what is the liability of police enforcement agencies or those
taking the samples to then get that information out? This raises
some questions that need to be dealt with.
There have been some very critical issues raised. I am a strong
supporter of giving police the tools they need to protect us
because that is the role of law enforcement agencies. However, I
would remind members that as legislators it is important that we
also protect the rights of the innocent. One of the pillars of
our justice system is that everyone is innocent until they are
proven guilty. We have to remember that.
This is something that we need to continue to monitor. I think
it is worthy of continued debate as we go along. I would like to
congratulate the members of the committee. I hope that all
members of Canadian society realize that we on the government
side are very concerned and want to see things progress in a fair
and logical way.
I will now turn over the remainder of my time to my colleague,
the hon. member for Mississauga West.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Colleague, I am
afraid it is too late for you to ask for that privilege as you
went over the 10 minutes allotted to you, unless you would like
to ask the House to agree unanimously.
Mrs. Judi Longfield: Madam Speaker, when I asked how long
I had and you said 11 minutes, I assumed you thought I was taking
20 minutes.
I have 10 minutes left in the 20-minute allotment, the other 10
to go to my colleague. If it requires unanimous consent, then I
would ask for unanimous consent.
1205
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Is there unanimous
consent to proceed as such?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I must admit that I am somewhat surprised there was
unanimous consent, but I am also appreciative of it.
This is really a fundamental Canadian issue and I think we
should look at it from that perspective. I appreciate some of
the concerns that some of my colleagues have expressed on this
side of the House, as well as in opposition, about the timing of
the collection of DNA material and the issue surrounding whether
or not it should be available upon charge or only upon
conviction. I appreciate that there have been concerns expressed
about that and much of the debate around this whole legislation
has been on the timing issue.
There is something very fundamental about Canada and it is
probably one of the main reasons we continually get rated as the
best country in the world in which to live. I know some members,
particularly members opposite, get tired of hearing us talk about
that, but it happens to be a reality. One of the fundamental
reasons that we achieve that success, that rating in
international circles, is the fairness that exists in our laws.
They are not perfect. There is no question that if allowing the
police to gather DNA evidence on every charge would prevent
certain crimes from occurring, then one would say, from a common
sense perspective, not necessarily from a legal point of view or
a constitutional point of view, that that might have some merit.
I understand that. But when one balances that with the basic
premise that innocence is clearly one of the rights in our
justice system, until proven guilty, how far does one go? I
guess that is the real issue that the government is wrestling
with, that human rights activists wrestle with, that lawyers and
obviously parliamentarians wrestle with.
This particular bill will go some distance toward ensuring that
at least those who are convicted of a crime—and this is
critical—will have information in a data bank. I think that
will help in terms of repeat offenders or those who have served
their time and paid their penalty to society. The data bank is
there to help the police in their investigative process.
I think that one of the most important fundamental aspects of
this is that it will provide a balance for police forces, both
the national force and local forces right across this country, to
access information and to access it quickly.
Who among us would not like the opportunity to prevent some of
the tragedies we have seen in the past, such as the Bernardo case
and the Homolka case? However, in that particular case would a
DNA bank with information filed upon a charge have assisted the
police? In fact when hon. members study the entire case they will
note that the arrest was not made and that charges were not
filed, so there would not have been an opportunity to know in
advance or to have this information on file in advance. Upon
conviction is a totally different story.
1210
Could we think for one minute about filing this information upon
arrest or upon charge? That would be the other point. Should it
simply be done upon an individual being detained? What do we do
concerning people coming into this country? There is potential
for abuse when someone is held in detention and a DNA sample is
put in the data base to be compiled in some central bureaucratic
computerized storage compartment and used in whatever capacity.
The potential for abuse is serious. It is not a step we need to
take.
An hon. member: That's a red herring.
Mr. Steve Mahoney: It is not a red herring. The member
opposite said that it is a red herring. That is one of the
differences in this country. It is one of the reasons we are
judged to be such a well balanced country. We do not knee jerk.
We do not have an over reaction or a simplistic solution.
The national data bank proposed in this bill will help police to
better protect Canadians. Will it solve all the problems? No.
But it is time we used the technology and the modern method of
collecting this data to help police do their job. We believe
that this may not be a panacea, that in a simplistic world
members of the Reform Party might think this would be an easy way
to target everybody, to number everybody, to put all their data
into a file. I do not want to be an extremist or a radical by
using terms like police state because I do not think it applies,
but I really think that we have to analyze the benefits and the
purpose of data collection.
The Criminal Code already allows police to take a DNA sample
from a person at the time of charge or any other time as long as
they first obtain a warrant to do so.
If we want to talk about red herrings, let us go back to the
debate on gun control which members opposite love to do. The
issue they like to fly is that the police will be able to knock
on doors at any time they want, day or night, because they
suspect the person might have a loaded pistol and want to do a
full search. Members opposite know that is not true, yet through
their association with the American gun associations and the gun
lobby in general they continually put out this kind of
information. It gets people all excited and whipped up. We saw
the demonstration on the front lawn of Parliament Hill last week.
The amount of misinformation about issues like that is quite
astounding. Members opposite know there is a requirement for a
warrant to be issued, or you open your door and allow them to
come in. There is none of this jackboot mentality where police
officers can show up at three in the morning, kick the door down
and run into the homes of law-abiding Canadian citizens.
In this case there is a definite comparison. The DNA sample
could be taken if permission were granted. Perhaps that issue
could be dealt with. Clearly, the sample can be taken if police
obtain a warrant to do so. What is involved in the process? The
police must go before a judge, a man or woman that I presume the
Parliament of Canada has some faith and trust in, to seek a
warrant to collect the sample at the point of a charge being
laid.
I really believe that innocent until proven guilty is one of the
fundamental tenets of democracy and freedom in Canada. That does
not mean that in any way whatsoever we would condone or be soft
on crime. Quite the opposite. Some of the changes in the
justice ministry of this government are absolutely
groundbreaking, precedent setting and are saying to criminals
that we are not prepared to allow them to take control of our
streets and our communities. We are going to be tough.
This bill will put in place a data collection system for DNA
samples taken appropriately, taken in fairness and taken in
justice. It will ensure that Canada is still a wonderful, safe,
free and democratic country but with strict rules. We will fight
crime with this legislation and other bills as they are needed.
1215
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, does the member understand what is in the bill? I
believe I heard him just say that the bill would allow for DNA
samples to be taken at the point of the charge being made. In
fact the problem with the bill is that the DNA sample, as he
should know, will be taken at a time of conviction.
The reason I said red herring a couple of minutes ago is very
straightforward. He was trying to make out that anybody who is
held, like for example the student who was held by the RCMP at
the APEC fiasco for 14 hours, would have his DNA taken. I
believe the example he used was that when somebody comes into the
country, perhaps through the refugee process and is being
detained, the DNA sample would be taken. That is why I said his
comments were a red herring.
What we are asking for, what the Canadian Police Association is
asking for and what any responsible, reasonable Canadian is
asking for is that the DNA sample be taken at the time of a
charge, not as the member was putting forward as though there
would be a DNA sample taken just because a person was taken into
custody and held for a period of time.
The conclusion of his speech was quite enlightening when he
referred to the concerns there are about Bill C-68. I am saying
that there will not be a jackboot mentality and that the police
will need some probable cause for the terribly onerous law and
the provisions in Bill C-68. His justification of that is
exactly the justification that we make for having the DNA sample
taken at the time of charge. I believe the police forces in
Canada are typically very responsible in the way they enforce the
law.
For him on one side of the coin to say it is bogus, that the
police will not be doing things under Bill C-68, under the
so-called gun control law, and make a case for that is to make a
case for our point that in this instance the samples should be
taken at the time of charge.
How can the member square the round peg he has created?
Mr. Steve Mahoney: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the
comments but as usual the member and some of his colleagues tend
to be rather selective in their hearing process.
I did not say at any time—and Hansard will so
record—that this bill allows the police to take DNA samples. I
said the Criminal Code of Canada already allows police to take a
DNA sample from a person at the time of charge if they have a
warrant. That is the critical distinction the member so easily
overlooked.
The point is that we are creating a framework for storing DNA
samples and for using that information in the investigation of
serious criminal offences. If a convicted criminal—and I
emphasize the word convicted—reoffends and his DNA samples are
in a database, the police will be able to identify the
perpetrator at the crime scene through the use of modern
technology and the database of DNA samples. They will know who
they are looking for. If that person was convicted, is now out
either on parole or has completed a sentence and reoffends, it
will allow the police to use this facility to expedite their
investigation dramatically.
The member opposite should not try to interpret my comments in
this place in any way other than the spirit in which they were
given, which is that innocent until proven guilty is a
fundamental tenet of the Canadian justice system and one that I
support.
1220
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): Madam Speaker,
this bill is very interesting in that it has direct connection to
Bill C-68 and section 745, which was to change the whole issue as
to when a convicted murder could apply for parole. Bill C-68,
section 745 and DNA are all inextricably linked in a pattern. The
government has shown us that it is weak-kneed when it comes to
making streets safe for law-abiding Canadian citizens and to
protecting Canadian citizens and their property.
In my judgment the most contentious part of this bill lies in
the comments of the solicitor general when he was before
committee. He said:
Taking samples after an offender has been convicted of designated
offence balances our concern for the safety of all Canadians with
our need to respect the rights protected by Canada's Charter. We
cannot ignore that the accused has the right to be presumed
innocent and protected from unreasonable search and seizure.
The speakers this morning have been waxing rather eloquent. They
have said that taking these samples would “undermine human
dignity”. I am not sure what that meant, but that is what they
said. Another speaker said that it would not only be
unconstitutional but un-Canadian.
Hyperbole or extreme statements are sometimes part of the
rhetoric in the debates that happen in the House, but for Liberal
members to pretend for a split second that we are making extreme
statements and calling this un-Canadian when they should be
taking action to create safer streets and protect victims and
society at large is a bit thick.
Let us take a look at the connection between Bill C-68, section
745 and DNA. In the Bill C-68 issue I note that Liberals go out
of their way to constantly quote the Canadian Police Association.
At the time when debate on Bill C-68 was at its peak, the
Canadian Police Association, after much internal wrangling,
decided that it would come out in favour of and in support of
Bill C-68.
It was interesting that at exactly the same time there was also
a debate with the former justice minister who is now Canada's
Minister of Health. The former justice minister also had on his
plate demands from Canadians at large that section 745 of the
Criminal Code be repealed. Section 745 permits a judge to say,
as a consequence of a first degree murder, that the person has
been convicted of first degree murder—we must remember it is
premeditated murder—and as a consequence sentenced to 25 years
or life.
The public at large assumes that means 25 years. How wrong they
are. The judge may even say as a result of a particularly
heinous crime that it is with no chance of parole for 25 years.
Again wrong. Because of the historic soft-headed approach of the
Liberal government going back to the time of Warren Allmand who
brought this in during the late sixties, the whole approach has
been to say maybe the presiding judge did not know what he was
talking about or maybe the person has changed over this last
period of time.
1225
Under section 745 the murderer convicted of first degree murder
is permitted to apply for parole after 15 years. The justice
minister at that time brought forward a half-hearted motion,
which unfortunately was passed, where if persons were convicted
of more than one first degree murder they could not apply.
However, if it was just one first degree murder they could apply.
I believe the leaders of the Canadian Police Association at that
time were really upset by this half-hearted measure to take away
section 745. I believe they were influenced by the justice
minister saying that if the association would give him its
unqualified support for Bill C-68 he would see what he could do
about section 745.
That is pure speculation on my part because I am sure I do not
know what was going on behind closed doors. It strikes me as
passing strange that no matter whom I spoke to in the Canadian
Police Association, particularly members in the lower levels,
they were all saying that the application of Bill C-68 and the
cost of the useless registry was a stupid way to spend money. Yet
they flipped and said they supported Bill C-68.
Historically the government has said its support for Bill C-68
comes from the Canadian Police Association. The Canadian Police
Association knows what it is talking about. Whether the Canadian
Police Association was influenced or not by some behind the
scenes talk about section 745 we will never know.
It is interesting that the same Canadian Police Association
which the government quotes in support of Bill C-68 had this to
say about Bill C-3 in a letter dated September 16 to members of
parliament. The signatory, Neal Jessop, the president of the
Canadian Police Association, wrote:
I am writing to you in relation to Bill C-3 and the creation of a
national DNA data bank. As you know, Bill C-3 is awaiting third
reading and it is our understanding that it will likely pass such
a stage shortly after parliament resumes this fall.
The Canadian Police Association represents approximately 35,000
frontline police officers across Canada. It is because of our
practical, hands on experience that the government has come to
rely on our advice on issues such as gun control, search warrants
and parole reform. It is the same experience that leads us to
the conclusion that Bill C-3, as currently drafted, is seriously
flawed, and will needlessly allow Canadians to be put at risk.
The CPA has lobbied for the creation of a DNA data bank for many
years. Since the beginning, we stressed the important impact a
bank could have on public safety, a goal that we worked towards
every day whether it be on the streets or on Parliament Hill. We
said then, as we say now, that for this initiative to work
samples must be taken from suspects when arrested. In doing so,
we will maximize the potential crime prevention aspects of the
bill which is a goal we all share.
Let us be clear. A properly structured DNA data bank will save
billions of dollars, but more importantly it will save lives and
significantly reduce victimization. This, in our opinion, should
be the goal of any criminal justice legislation the government
passes. As an elected official, this should be your main
consideration when you are called upon to vote on Bill C-3.
Consider the following scenario. In the Ottawa area, there are
currently a number of unsolved outstanding cases of homicide or
sexual assault. Assume that a person is arrested for a break and
enter and, unknown to the police, is responsible for some of
those unsolved crimes. Like 90% of all offenders, this
individual is released on bail without DNA samples being taken
(if C-3 is enacted). Knowing that he faces detection on the
other charges if he returns, the offender flees to B.C. and a
warrant for break and enter is issued by the Ottawa court. Two
months later he is picked up on other matters by police in B.C.
who check CPIC and discover the existing B and E warrant. When
they check with Ottawa to see if he should be returned, the
answer according to today's practices will be no.
Remember that police do not know whom they are dealing with.
Any woman this individual encounters will be at risk. This is
unacceptable because it is entirely preventable. While this may
be a mere anecdote for some, it is a reality for us.
This issue is paramount to Canadian police officers, and by
virtue the CPA. We have obtained an independent (unlike the hand
picked judges who wrote decisions supporting the government's
position) legal decision that states our position on this issue
is constitutionally sound. We attempted to work with the
Department of Justice and they were unable to understand the
significance of our position, perhaps because they have never had
to look into the eyes of a sexual assault victim or a grieving
family member. We now turn to you, our elected representatives,
to do what is right for Canadians. If you choose not to, we as
police officers will be forced to explain to that grieving family
member that his or her government had the information and the
ability to prevent such an act of violence, but they chose not
to.
Do not underestimate the importance of this issue to the CPA. We
are not, and never have been, averse to take every public
opportunity to inform the public when the government creates and
passes flawed legislation. We will do that again regarding Bill
C-3. We will make sure that Canadians understand that their
government is risking their lives. We will make sure that if one
of your constituents is harmed because of this flawed
legislation, they will know who to ask for an explanation.
Please accept our offer to work with you and develop legislation
that would enhance public safety and still remain
constitutionally valid. Despite contradictory rhetoric from the
Department of Justice, it is an achievable goal. As an MP, we
urge you to take this opportunity to come to your own conclusion,
not that as dictated by the Prime Minister.
1230
This is the same organization that this government chooses to
quote in support of its flawed Bill C-68. I ask members very
simply, if the CPA is right, and I do not believe it is, but if
the CPA is right in its support of Bill C-68 and if the
government is going to continue to quote that source, why will
the government not quote the source, the CPA, and the CPA's
position on Bill C-3?
It is because the Minister of Justice and the Solicitor General,
working under the Prime Minister of Canada, are taking directions
from him. He has said that this bill will pass as it presently
is. It is a real shame that there is not the ability within our
parliamentary process as currently constructed by the Prime
Minister for there to be legitimate dissent within his own ranks.
It is a real shame that the Liberals are whipped into a position
by the party whip to make sure that they vote that this
ineffective bill will end up passing.
For someone to say the bill is unconstitutional is an opinion
that may be backed up with some fact. But to call the bill
un-Canadian when the purpose of the bill, of taking the DNA
sample upon charge, is going to give us the opportunity to
interdict people and create a situation where we can return them
from various jurisdictions as required, is beyond my ability to
comprehend.
To show how the spin works, it was interesting that about six
weeks ago the spinmeisters for the Liberals were going on about
the fact that if we take the sample and we actually conduct the
lab tests, it is going to be far too expensive. It is going to
cost $5,000 each.
I find this number to be somewhat suspicious. I say that
because this is the same government that told us in order to come
up with the registry program on Bill C-68 that the cost was only
going to be $85 million, whereas now it is actually admitting
that it will cost at least a quarter of a billion dollars.
1235
The Liberals got everyone on side with the $85 million. For
Liberals a million here, a million there pretty soon adds up, but
it was only $85 million. They got a fair number of people on
side with that lowball number.
Either the government was incompetent and did not realize how
much this useless registry is actually going to cost, or it was
not giving Canadians the facts required to know that it will cost
at least a quarter of a billion dollars. As a matter of fact,
estimates are in the neighbourhood of $1 billion to $1.2 billion
for this registry program.
If the government can fudge and exaggerate the figures on the
justification for the registry program under Bill C-68, I can
imagine what it is doing to scare people off with a high figure
on being able to actually conduct the lab work when the sample is
taken. We can see there is within Canada, as there should be, a
fair lack of trust of the numbers the government chooses to use
to justify its actions from time to time.
It is a shame when Canadians who the justice minister herself
said are concerned about their safety on the streets. The
justice minister herself has said that Canadians are losing
confidence in Canada's justice system. As a matter of fact I
choose to call it Canada's legal system. We have to get some
justice back into it.
Canadians have lost faith. To those who still believe there is
some hope the Liberals will come around and actually work to put
the protection of law-abiding Canadian citizens, their well-being
and their property ahead of the rights of criminals, I have a
bridge in Brooklyn I would like to talk to them about.
This bill will be passed today because the Prime Minister has
said so. Shame on the Liberals for being whipped into shape to
pass this bill as presently constructed.
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, the member is probably right that this bill will be
passed. However it will be passed today not because someone has
dictated from on high but because Liberals want to see a DNA bank
in this country to improve the enforcement of the laws against
criminals who perform acts that are contrary to all decency and
humanity.
The Reformers obviously do not want to see that type of a system
because they have made it clear they intend to vote against the
bill.
I would like the hon. member to make a comment. I too have
discussed with the Canadian Police Association that it would like
the legislation to allow samples of blood to be taken before
someone is convicted. I have a big concern with this and would
like the member to comment on it.
What do we tell Canadians 10 years down the road if this
legislation, with that provision in it which is constitutionally
risky, is challenged and defeated in the Supreme Court of Canada?
The result would be that 10 years of convictions of possible
murderers and sexual assaulters would be overturned. There would
be nothing we could do to go back and recoup those convictions
which had been based on what the courts in ten years might decide
was tainted evidence.
I want a DNA bank so we can deal with those horrendous crimes. I
am not prepared to risk 10 years of convictions. And I am not
prepared to vote against the bill because it does not have a
provision in it that would do that.
I wonder if the hon. member would comment on that.
Mr. Jim Abbott: Madam Speaker, I really respect the
intervention by the member. I know she feels very strongly that
way. I commend her for her conviction and I know she is sincere.
It strikes me that within the criminal justice system many
aspects of it are handcuffed by virtue of our Canadian Charter of
Rights and Freedoms. The vast majority of Canadians highly value
that document, as they should.
1240
The difficulty is that the Canadian charter in some instances
does get in the way not only of good law, such as this would be
in strengthening this DNA data bank, it even gets in the way of
Corrections Canada. The inmates are running the show as a result
of the charter of rights. There is going to have to come a day
when, and perhaps this bill would be as good a one as any,
whether we call it the notwithstanding clause or whatever is
brought into effect.
The charter with all of its good points has unnecessarily
handcuffed the ability of peace officers, whether they are in
Corrections Canada or are police officers, from being able to do
what is fair and reasonable. We therefore have a charter
industry populated by some very expensive, hundreds of dollars an
hour lawyers who are constantly digging this thing up and taking
things apart.
It strikes me that the safety of the people of Canada, their
families and their property should come before these other
considerations. I realize and admit that this is a rather
extreme statement, but we have to reach a point where we are
going to have to ask who comes first, the criminal or the
law-abiding citizen?
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Madam Speaker, I listened to the previous question with great
interest, even more so than the response by the hon. member.
This ongoing government position really astounds me. It
reflects the charter constipation that seems to exist on the
government side of the House when it comes to certain important
pieces of legislation.
There is a fear that somehow these judges may decide to strike
down a piece of legislation because hypothetically a lawyer out
there somewhere in Canada lurking in the bushes might decide to
challenge based on a constitutional infringement. That is
absolutely asinine. I can guarantee that it will happen because
that is what lawyers do. In this instance, with regard to this
particular bill, to fear that this might somehow be challenged
under a charter infringement is ridiculous.
My question for the hon. member is with regard to the use of DNA
data banks and when and at what point in time should the police
be permitted to take this piece of evidence and use it not only
in the investigation they are pursuing but also use it in
comparison to the DNA data bank that will eventually come into
fruition.
Why would we in this House not pursue the goal to arm the police
rather than to give them a toothless piece of legislation, one
that goes to some degree in the direction that we want? Why
would we not go all the way with DNA? Why would we in this House
not like to give the police an opportunity to do their jobs, to
do the very best they can to protect Canadians in their
communities and to do the very best they can to raise the alarm
and work toward a justice system that truly does reflect the will
and desire to protect people in their communities?
Mr. Jim Abbott: Madam Speaker, that is a very good
question but I do not have a clue what the answer is. Look at
the window dressing about Bill C-68 for example where the
government keeps on claiming that it is going to make the streets
safer. I am sure I do not know how.
Look at the chagrin, the problems and the pressure there was on
the families of the victims of Clifford Olson when he went
through that circus and those families were put through the
excruciating parole hearing under 745. Just to keep the record
straight, if the justice minister of the day had done his job in
a timely manner, Clifford Olson would not have been able to put
those victims on the spot the way he did.
1245
I lay that completely at the feet of the former justice
minister. Now we take a look at this DNA databank which is
another half measure. I have absolutely no idea.
Let me state our position very clearly. The protection of the
people of Canada, the law abiding citizens, their persons and
their property must be the primary and paramount objective of
this Chamber. Until we get rid of this bunch on the other side,
I do not have any hope that is ever going to happen.
Mr. Peter MacKay: Madam Speaker, I could not help but notice
that in the remarks by the hon. member there was reference made
to Bill C-68. That bill can be compared to the faint hope clause
because it really should be called the false hope clause. In
fact, this bill is not going to do exactly what we are talking
about here, protect law abiding citizens, because it is aimed
specifically at law-abiding citizens.
What does the hon. member think or what is his party's position
with respect to the application of the infrastructure that is now
in place with respect to gun registration, the computer
terminals, the hook-ups, the incredible spiralling cost that we
now know exceeds $135 million or $134 million and is going to
perhaps double again by the time that this is actually
implemented, even with the delay that we have seen in
anticipation that the Alberta Court of Appeal will strike it down
some time within the next few days?
I wonder what the hon. member would say to the suggestion of
applying this infrastructure, the computers, to the use of
registering criminals under this new Bill C-3.
Mr. Jim Abbott: Madam Speaker, I think that is an
outstanding idea, absolutely. There is going to be at least a
quarter of a billion dollars uselessly spent according to the
numbers provided by the Liberals on this useless so-called gun
control program.
Taking even a small portion of that money and putting say, $100
million toward a proper DNA registry program is clearly the route
to go. That is an effective and intelligent use of Canadian
taxpayer money.
Mr. Paul DeVillers (Simcoe North, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I
will be sharing my time. I am pleased to speak in support of
Bill C-3 which proposes the creation of a national DNA databank
which will be maintained by the RCMP.
There has been some discussion recently about the timing of the
taking of bodily samples in order to supplement the databank. In
my view this is an area which clearly demonstrates the great care
that has been taken to ensure that the national DNA databank
meets all constitutional requirements.
The focus of my remarks today will be on that one aspect of the
bill, the timing of the collection of the DNA samples for the
purpose of the national DNA databank.
[Translation]
Nowadays, law enforcement officials, both in Canada and
throughout the world, are turning increasingly to DNA
identification in the fight against crime.
But as the Ontario Court of Appeal recently observed in
Terceira, it is important to remember that matching DNA profiles
in the context of a criminal proceeding does not resolve the
ultimate question of the accused's guilt.
It does, however, make it possible to establish important
circumstantial evidence that can be considered along with other
evidence in support of the crown's contention that the accused
was at the scene of the crime and committed the offence.
[English]
DNA sampling is an important and powerful investigative tool.
However, its intrusive nature has been clearly recognized by the
highest courts in the land. As such, Bill C-3 must reflect the
state of our constitutional law. In other words, the taking of
bodily substances must be done in accordance with constitutional
principles.
As originally introduced in the House, Bill C-3 stipulated that
bodily substances would be taken after the person is convicted,
discharged under section 730 or, in the case of a young person,
found guilty under the Young Offenders Act of a designated
offence.
Some organizations came before the committee to urge that the
bill be amended to provide the police the authority in
legislation to take DNA samples on arrest or at the time charges
are laid similar to the authority they have to take fingerprints
without prior judicial authorization under the Identification of
Criminals Act. In their view there should not be the
intervention of a judge to decide whether it is appropriate to
seize the bodily samples.
1250
The proponents of this proposal believe that if the police could
take DNA profiles from persons charged with designated offences,
the databank would be more effective simply because it would hold
more DNA profiles. They question why it was necessary to wait
for a conviction to take the DNA samples for inclusion in a
national DNA databank when this was not the case in the United
Kingdom. They also contended that the collection of bodily
substances for forensic DNA analysis is no more intrusive on a
suspect's privacy than is the collection of fingerprints.
At the same time, other parties came before the committee
seriously questioning the constitutionality of this proposal and
they presented firm views that the taking of bodily samples
without prior judicial authorization constitutes a seizure that
is likely to be unconstitutional.
On March 11, 1998 the committee heard from officials of the
Department of Justice who had carefully reviewed the legal issues
relating to this proposal and they stated that the taking of
bodily samples from an accused constitutes a search.
[Translation]
Department of Justice officials also stressed that the supreme
court has established a clear distinction between fingerprinting
and the taking of physical evidence for DNA analysis. They
argued that the court had assigned great importance to the
invasiveness of the second type of procedure and had expressed
its great respect for physical integrity and the individual's
right to retain control over his or her bodily substances. in
Borden, 1994, and Stillman, 1997.
[English]
Fingerprinting and taking bodily samples for the purpose of DNA
testing are simply not the same and they cannot be equated. In
other words, one should not contend that the taking of bodily
substances upon arrest is constitutional on the basis that the
taking of fingerprints in those circumstances has been ruled
constitutional.
To permit the taking of such bodily samples simply on the basis
of a police officer's belief that the person has committed a
designated offence without complying with the requirements that
there be prior judicial authorization would constitute a classic
example of a warrantless search or seizure which would prima
facie be unconstitutional.
[Translation]
Justice officials were not the only ones raising the point that
there was a very strong possibility sampling at the time a
suspect was arrested would be considered unconstitutional. The
same reservations were expressed by the criminal section of the
Canadian Bar Association, and representatives of the solicitors
general of Ontario and New Brunswick, among others.
[English]
The opponents of the proposal were clear that it would have been
inconsistent with existing constitutional authorities and would
have jeopardized the viability of the national DNA databank. In
the end on this issue the committee approved the bill as it had
been originally drafted. The taking of samples would occur only
following conviction.
However, that did not end the matter. The proponents of the
collection at charge option continued to press for amendments to
the bill at report stage to provide for the collection of DNA
samples at the time of charge. In an attempt to make this more
palatable it was suggested that the samples would not be analyzed
until a person was convicted or unless that person failed to
appear at trial.
Unfortunate statements were made suggesting that if the bill was
not amended the legislation would be useless. Similarly it was
stated that without these changes long unsolved crimes would
never be solved. These arguments were intended to scare
Canadians and could of course lead to the worst excesses all the
way to the end justifies the means.
1255
Not only was this wrong, it seemed to miss the point. Bill C-3
is not meant to allow warrantless searches for the purposes of
supplementing the databank. Bill C-3 is meant to create a
databank through appropriate, legitimate and constitutional
means. It is a databank which can produce leads which the police
can pursue in order to solve serious crimes without fearing any
evidence resulting from such information would be found
inadmissible at trial because it had originated from an
unconstitutional search.
I said that these kinds of statements were exaggerated because
they imply that the large number DNA profiles from dangerous
criminals would be lost to the databank if they were not taken at
the time of charge. There is a considerable difference between
being charged with an offence and being convicted of an offence.
Moreover, the very same DNA samples could be taken later in the
criminal justice process under Bill C-3 from those persons
convicted of a designated offence. The only advantage,
therefore, considering that under Bill C-3 or the new proposal
the bodily samples would not be analyzed until after the person
was convicted, would be administrative convenience. This would
not be sufficient justification to permit the violation of one's
privacy and of a seizure of one's genetic material.
The truth is that under the scheme set out in Bill C-3 the
police will be equally able to solve long unsolved crimes because
the DNA analysis would occur only following the conviction in
either case.
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan—Coquihalla, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
I listened with interest to the member's speech. The people of
Okanagan—Coquihalla strongly support the taking of fingerprints
in criminal cases. They also strongly support a relatively new
technology, the taking of DNA samples when it comes to the
possibility of solving a crime.
I challenge the member on the issue that these measures are
intrusive. There are literally hundreds of unsolved cases of
rapes and murders in Canada that police could go now and find the
evidence if they were able to use the DNA system to solve these
crimes. As the member has pointed out, that would work only if
they are a felon or if they have had a criminal record before.
That is the only way the Liberal DNA databank system is going to
work, if it is a previously convicted felon.
I had to jump up when I heard another Liberal member stating
that the Paul Bernardo case could have been solved sooner. Paul
Bernardo did not have a criminal conviction. He would not have
been in the DNA databank.
I challenge the Liberals on this. They are afraid of a
constitutional challenge in the supreme court. The Government of
Canada, if it did happen, should on behalf of the people of
Okanagan—Coquihalla and other Canadians fight for a simple and
very understandable rule, that the rights of law abiding citizens
of Canada outweigh the rights of the perpetrators of crime or
those accused of crime. Taking a hair sample or a saliva sample
or a blood sample is not out of the question. To think it is is
totally irrational and not serving Canadians.
Mr. Paul DeVillers: Mr. Speaker, it is exactly the rights
of law-abiding Canadian citizens that the charter of rights is
there to protect. Those are the rights of innocent people we are
trying to protect from the invasion or intrusion of the taking of
samples without any conviction and on suspicion only of a police
officer or a crown attorney. The government is proposing in this
bill that the samples be taken only after conviction so that the
rights and liberties of those innocent law abiding Canadians are
protected.
1300
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, as we try to put some logic and common sense into some
of the bills before the House, I hear once again from the
government side the argument about the legal community and the
Canadian Bar Association, but I do not hear the argument on
behalf of victims, victims' rights and the law-abiding Canadian
citizen.
I wonder what the member opposite thinks about the
notwithstanding clause in the Constitution. Notwithstanding the
comments he has made about the Constitution, why could this
government not stand up for a change and say “Notwithstanding
what we perceive might be a problem, we are going to proceed in
this way and we are going to take DNA samples at the time we have
an accused”?
Mr. Paul DeVillers: Mr. Speaker, once again I can see the
Reform Party is engaging in lawyer bashing. It was joined by the
hon. member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough in a similar
practice.
Mr. Peter MacKay: I am a lawyer.
Mr. Paul DeVillers: That gives you a prerogative.
That is not the point. The point is that the rule of law
applies, that due process applies. That may be inconvenient and
it may get in the way of the plans and aspirations of the Reform
Party in certain cases, which is joined by the Tories in this
case. However, that is what the charter of rights is there to
protect. Those are the rights of all Canadian citizens whom we
are trying to protect.
Once a person is convicted, then certainly the DNA would go into
the data bank. That will be a very effective tool for police in
future crime solving.
Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am glad to have the opportunity to speak in this
debate. It gives me occasion to raise with all members what I
think is quite an important issue which spins off from the debate
about DNA sampling.
I will first address the DNA sampling issue as I see it. If I
were on the other side of the Chamber and if I were listening to
groups like the Canadian Police Association, I would indeed take
the stand I hear from those on the other side. Fair is fair.
There are some good grounds for believing that if DNA samples
were taken on charge there would be advantages in tracking down
criminals and bringing more safety to our streets. I do not
think there is any doubt that the more tools we can give our law
enforcement officers, tools which they demand and want, the
better they can carry out their jobs.
However, I must be frank with members opposite and tell them why
I cannot support that position. I sympathize with what they are
saying, but I cannot support it. And this is me speaking, not
the government. The reason is that DNA sampling takes personal
identification to a much higher level than just fingerprinting.
We heard people say earlier in the House that DNA sampling on
charge is not much different from taking fingerprints. They said
that taking fingerprints had not been a problem with respect to
the charter of rights. Actually, there had been a problem. When
the breathalyzer test procedure was first introduced it was
challenged before the supreme court, which found that while on
the surface it would appear that forcing people to give breath or
blood samples appeared to be contrary to their charter rights,
there was an element of reasonableness in the procedure, the good
it did for society, which permitted the courts to uphold the
principle of taking a breathalyzer test or a blood sample at the
time of charge, or at least forcing them to be taken.
If we go from fingerprinting to breathalyzer testing to DNA
sampling, we go into an enormous domain that goes much beyond
simply blowing into a container. The problem with DNA sampling
is that it is the ultimate fingerprint.
1305
DNA sampling is based on the fact that each one of us as
individuals contains unique sets of DNA markers on our
chromosomes. Consequently, any sample is believed, at least so
far science tells us, to be uniquely identifiable with an
individual. One can see where this could be an enormous crime
fighting tool.
But a DNA sample is like a tattoo that we all carry. All that
has to happen is for an authority to peel away a tiny bit of
skin, reveal the tattoo, put it on the record and there it
remains.
This is where the difficulty comes about. It was only 55 years
ago that a similar tattooing procedure existed in Europe. I do
not want members opposite to get excited about this because I am
not casting aspersions on their position. But the reality is
that at one time in European history tattooing became a useful
tool of the police forces to keep track of undesirables in
society. These undesirables were Jews, gypsies and the mentally
infirm.
We know where that led in the end. That led to a genocide that
this world has not forgotten and I hope never will. It was a
systematic genocide. It was conducted with the agreement of the
state, using police forces.
The problem is that when we come to something like the absolute
identification of us as individuals, we become that much closer
to that type of state interference in our personal and private
lives which led to the atrocities that finally occurred in Nazi
Germany.
I am not saying that this could happen in Canada, although we
have to always remember in a democracy that there is always the
danger that if we allow the state too much intrusion into the
privacy of the individual, into the identity of the individual,
we run the very serious risk of becoming a cipher, of becoming a
tattoo, and if the state or the police get a little out of
control, then the rights of citizens can indeed be destroyed.
It is an ethical issue that disturbs me. I am not saying that a
DNA sampling at charge is necessarily not the thing to do. What
I am saying is that it is too early for us as as a parliament to
make that grand a decision. We have to go out into the community
and, over time, talk to the people who are concerned about ethics
in society: talk to the church, talk to all those who are
worried about the human dignity of being an individual, rather
than a number. When we look back at the tattooing that was done
during the period of Nazi Germany, what distresses us most is not
just the death it led to, it is the fact that human beings were
reduced to numbers.
I say that DNA itself is nothing more than a human bar code of
the 1990s. Before we engage in using this as a tool for the
police we have to have a very serious debate, not just with
parliamentarians, not just with the police, but also with church
leaders and others. I would think the Jewish community might
have something to say about this whole question.
Nevertheless, the real point that I came before the House to
discuss was not the DNA sampling because it is an ethical issue.
I did not expect to change the minds of those opposite because
they are charged to be in the opposition and to speak in
opposition to government bills. But one of the things that
disturbs me in this whole debate is that I, like every MP,
received correspondence from the Canadian Police Association,
lobbying heavily to have DNA sampling accepted at charge rather
than after conviction. I have no problem with the Canadian
Police Association lobbying for this because it is very concerned
about successful law enforcement.
Where I have the problem is that the letter I received from the
Canadian Police Association contained a threat. What it
basically said was that if I as a parliamentarian did not agree
with the Canadian Police Association, that if I chose not
to—that is, not to support the position of the Canadian Police
Association—the letter tells me that “we as police officers
will be forced to explain to the grieving family members that his
or her government had the information and the ability to prevent
such an act of violence but chose not to”.
1310
What is happening is that the Canadian Police Association has
taken it upon itself, in this instance and in other instances, to
apply political pressure on the people in this Chamber to do what
the Canadian Police Association thinks is right.
Also I refer to the campaign that was conducted by the Canadian
Police Association during the last election in which it took out
huge billboards showing pictures of known murderers and compared
those people to the local Liberal MPs who rejected the private
member's bill that would have made retroactive the legislation
regarding the faint hope clause. It would have made it
retroactive so that no convicted killers could go before the
early parole procedure which then existed. Our justice minister
changed that provision but did not make it retroactive. The
billboards occurred during the election campaign. They were
propaganda and they lied.
During an election we accept a bit of stretching the truth. It
occurs not only among politicians during an election, but among
the special interest groups that back one political party or
another. We accept that. However, what was happening in this
case was that we had a police body engaging in an attempt to
influence politicians.
This is an issue of great concern to parliamentarians. The
British parliamentary tradition is that the legislators, the
courts and the police are supposed to be separate. I cannot
interfere in a police investigation or with the courts. The
courts cannot interfere with the politicians, and so it should
have been with the police. It has always been our tradition that
the police do not attempt to put direct pressure on politicians.
This is now occurring in Toronto as well. The Toronto police
association is attacking local politicians over their attitude
toward the special investigation unit.
I suggest that this is a serious threat to our fundamental
democracy in parliament and every parliamentarian has to be very
concerned. The reason we have our own police force in the House
of Commons and not a state police force, the RCMP or any other
body, is because of the tradition that parliament has to keep the
police and the military separate from politics. I hope the
police association hears my remarks and considers very carefully
what it has been doing in the past.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, it is very interesting to hear the hon. member
opposite from the Liberal Party talking about the arm's length
independent relationship between the RCMP and the Prime
Minister's Office and government given the facts that are now
being examined regarding the APEC summit.
My question specifically relates to this legislation. I was a
member of the justice committee when we debated the bill at that
level. We know that DNA evidence is inculpatory as well as
exculpatory. It is evidence that can be used to free
individuals, not only to convict them.
The debate over intrusiveness has drawn a lot of fire from both
sides of the House. Intrusiveness for whom? Intrusiveness for
an individual charged and arrested? I would think that many
individuals in this country, given the opportunity to clarify the
situation, would voluntarily want to give their DNA if they truly
felt they had nothing to do with a particular criminal matter.
My question specifically surrounds the assertion that this type
of evidence is going to protect Canadians to the full extent that
it could, given the fact that if an individual is picked up on a
charge in one part of the country, this legislation, in its
current form, will not allow the police to take a DNA sample to
cross-reference it to an outstanding matter to which there may be
DNA evidence at the crime scene that was entered into the DNA
data bank. This hypothesis was brought forward by the police
community.
If an individual is picked up in one part of the country and
charged with an offence, the police cannot take the DNA. If
there is existing DNA at another crime scene, a murder or a rape,
the individual will be released because presumably there will be
no evidence to hold him based on the seriousness of that
particular crime. We do not have returnable warrants in most
parts of the country, so the person can then flee the
jurisdiction and therefore be held unaccountable.
1315
This scenario is a real one. It is something that will happen
without a doubt.
I ask the hon. member to address that situation and tell us how
that gives any assurance whatsoever to Canadians that this
legislation goes far enough to address that.
Mr. John Bryden: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member was so
lengthy in framing his question it was difficult for me to follow
it. The danger with extending the legislation as proposed by the
opposition to taking samples upon charge is that it would
encourage police to go on a fishing expedition.
We have to protect the rights of the people who may be assumed
to be the type that would commit crimes. We believe in this
country that you are innocent until convicted and we must not
lose sight of that. We must be very careful on how wide a
mandate we give the police as far as their powers of arrest are
concerned.
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan—Coquihalla, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
I think Canadians in general listening to the member's comments
that somehow Nazi Germany and tattooing are associated with DNA
testing would think that is a stretch. I think it is totally
irrational.
On this side of the House we will continue to fight for
increased health care so people can get the help they so
desperately need. I think that is a principle we can all agree
with.
I question whether seizing DNA is really an invasion of a
person's privacy. DNA samples is like the member said, it is
using a series of numbers from the chromosomes to make an
identification.
It is very similar to fingerprinting, for instance. The
difficulty here is that you cannot see that it is very similar to
fingerprinting in that sense because it is more precise. It is
the new technology we have available today and Canadians believe
it should be used to solve crime. It is probably one of the best
tools we have.
Why does this government continue to mislead the public in
suggesting that this is an invasion of a person's privacy when it
is not? It is a sample of hair or saliva. It is not going to
give any information except whether that person matches the DNA
found at a crime scene. It does not talk about their mental
health, their health in any other way or release any other
personal—
The Deputy Speaker: I am afraid the time for questions
and comments is about to expire. The hon. member for
Wentworth—Burlington can have a brief reply.
Mr. John Bryden: Mr. Speaker, following that logic, why
should the government not take DNA samples of every individual at
birth and order DNA samples from every individual that exists so
that any time a crime is committed that tattooing mark is
available to the authorities? That is too big a power for police
to have and that is too big a power even for government to have.
I would not support it.
The Deputy Speaker: It is my duty to inform the House
that the five hours allotted for 20 minute speeches with 10
minutes for questions and comments has now expired. We are into
10 minute speeches without questions or comments.
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
how come the House leader of the official opposition misses out
on the 20 minute part?
I think I have heard it all in here today. I want to talk a
little about some of the comments in a minute. What a lot of
people do not understand here is that the DNA legislation does
not apply to some 14,000 prisoners currently sitting in our
prisons.
Once again the government feels that it is not quite appropriate
to take DNA samples of those people. I will tell members the
effects that will have on our country. It does, however, say it
will take DNA samples of prisoners currently serving time for
multiple murders, multiple sex offences and dangerous offenders.
Keep those three categories in mind here.
I have seven federal penitentiaries within half an hour's
driving distance of my house in Abbotsford, British Columbia. We
have around 100 released prisoners on day parole, UTA and ETA at
any given time.
1320
Sumas Centre is a day care facility with no fences, no guards,
and the inmates are basically walking our streets. They have a 7
or 8 o'clock curfew at night. I have long talked to the
government about increasing security there. In the last 10
months, from April 14, 1997 to February 1998 we have had four
sexual attacks in my area by residents of this facility. We have
had well over 55 unlawfully at large from that facility and not
one of them has had a DNA sample taken from them.
A person who sexually assaulted a lady and robbed her store was
from this facility and had 63 prior convictions. There was not
one DNA sample taken from this person.
When I stand up here I ask what part of this message do they not
understand. Perhaps they do not have enough prisons in their
ridings. Perhaps it has not affected them like it has many of
us. However, this DNA sample is important. It is important to
victims of crime and important to people who will become victims.
I sit here in the House and listen to members across talking
about constitutional issues, the Canadian Bar Association and on
and on it goes, what if, maybe, could be, but I never once heard
a discussion about victims or potential victims.
I guess it does not come as a surprise to anybody why we still
have the faint hope clause in this country, section 745, why
prisoners now vote, why prisoners are entitled to overtime pay,
and why we outlawed pepper spray for the law abiding Canadian
citizen yet we use it on university kids if they get in the way.
What is wrong over there with the mentality? Let us look at
some of this mentality and some of the quotes I just heard.
“This could lead to the atrocities of Nazi Germany”. I cannot
believe Liberal members actually believe that. I am telling this
government here and now that every day in my community the people
walking out of prison are sex offenders, murderers, drug addicts
and bank robbers. They are all sitting in there at night and
come out in the day but the government does not have the courage
to take a DNA sample of these people. In my community we have
people who are victims every single week.
I do not know how anybody can compare tattooing with DNA. That
is out of the blue. A Liberal member opposite says it is too
early in this stage of parliament to make such a decision. When
is the time to make a decision? How many people in my riding
have to suffer as a result of indecision? When is it, the year
2006, 2010, when enough victims are stacked up in this country so
that the public puts on the pressure and then there is change?
1325
Are all these opposition parties here crazy? Are we making
these stories up?
I made a presentation after forcing this government to have a
review on the Sumas Centre in my riding. At that time in March
there were approximately 43 unlawfully at large prisoners. We had
all types of robberies committed by these individuals, three
sexual assaults, no notice being taken. It fell on deaf ears
over there.
I went to the review commission and I asked why not stop here
and do something. DNA would be a good idea. Then when these
individuals walk out and perpetrate a crime we will know
immediately. In fact, many of them do not get caught
perpetrating crimes so we would probably find out faster if, when
and where these people were. Nothing happened with that.
Since I spoke to them just a few short months ago we have had 13
more unlawfully at large prisoners. Some are sex offenders. We
had not taken DNA samples of them. Why? They were not multiple
sex offenders. Two qualify and one does not. There is a
brilliant concoction of reasoning to me.
James Armbruster has 63 prior convictions, one sex offence
relating to his grandmother, and he is not DNA sampled. Why? He
did not have two victims. But now he does.
I do not know if it makes much sense trying to convince those in
a majority government when they refer to the potential of this
leading to the same atrocities of Nazi Germany. How do you argue
with that kind of reasoning? It is absolute nonsense.
We are sincerely in trouble in this country with logic such as
this from across the way that is so illogical to victims of crime
and potential innocent people.
Mr. Derek Lee (Scarborough—Rouge River, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have been following the debate today on this bill to
adopt legislation which would create a DNA databank for Canada.
This was a major piece of work for us sitting on the House of
Commons justice committee earlier this year. As have all
colleagues on the justice committee, I have had an opportunity to
look at the legislation from several perspectives and now we have
a debate in the House.
It is quite useful to all of us in the House to have an
opportunity to look at the different aspects of the bill from a
public interest point of view. I think we have done our very
best to make this bill as good as we can, as good as it can be,
so it will serve the public interest.
The perspectives of the opposition are useful here today.
They like the principle of the bill, but they are suggesting the
bill could be better. That is the way the opposition is supposed
to operate around here, and I urge them to continue. All of us
here in government and in opposition are listening and looking
for ways to improve the content of our legislation all the time.
1330
What does the bill do? We have heard that it creates a DNA data
bank for the first time for Canadians. We have not had one up
until now. We do use DNA in criminal investigations and in court
prosecutions. We have embarked on that road. We have made
amendments to our Criminal Code, and successfully so.
It is important to remember that although we are setting up a
DNA data bank for certain classes of DNA samples, we do have
outside of that DNA data bank a process for obtaining DNA samples
on warrant for criminal investigations. That will continue. Just
because the DNA data bank proposed here will not have a DNA
sample from a particular class of convicted criminals or some
other category, it does not mean that the police are not using
DNA in criminal investigations and in the public interest.
I would also point out that the manner in which the DNA data
bank is being created here is, from the point of view of
government, reasonably cost effective. There are methods of
approach here that we could have spent a bundle on, but the
minister and the Royal Canadian Mountain Police have made a real
attempt to get the data bank up and running in a cost effective
way and I think we should take note of that.
Dominating the discussion and leading up to this point in the
House has been concern over the charter or civil liberty
implications of the data bank. In fact it is true to say that
those concerns have shaped the data bank itself, the design of
it, and how the DNA will be used.
I can say right away and I think all members accept that the
privacy provisions contained in the bill are as good as we can
make them. Doubtless there are always privacy concerns, but the
protection of the information is as watertight as we can make it
in the public interest. The DNA analysis and the samples do have
to be used for the purpose intended. That means real people
doing real jobs. The police community will have to have access
to the sampling and to the analysis, but there are serious
penalties attached to the misuse of that information.
I accept, and colleagues all around the House note, that a DNA
sample is capable of revealing an awful lot of information about
a human being. Its use in the data bank is solely for the
purpose of identification, nothing else. The material will have
to be monitored and disposed of as quickly as the public interest
will allow.
What are the charter concerns? I want to focus on the big one
because I think there has been some misunderstanding of what the
charter hurdle has been. Why were we not able to construct a DNA
data bank that allowed the taking of a sample at the time of
charge or at any time for that matter? Why did we insist that it
be taken only at the time of conviction?
It is not the privacy concern. We have a privacy concern here
no matter who the sample has been taken from. Whether the person
is a convicted person or not, we still have a privacy issue. It
is not privacy that is our hurdle. I believe the big charter
problem, the big hurdle is the current intrusiveness of the
sampling process.
1335
At this point in time in order to get a DNA sample something
actually has to be physically taken from the human body. It has
to be scraped, it has to be gouged, it has to be expressed, a
hair has to be yanked out by the root. The physical integrity of
the human body has to be intruded upon in order to get that
sample.
I am comfortable with the concept that at this point in our
history our charter protects our bodily integrity from that type
of state intrusion, unless we consent to it or unless the law
allows it in some other way. I do not think we have made a case
here that will allow under our charter the state to gouge or pull
or scrape or express a piece of a person's body simply because a
person has been charged on the basis of reasonable grounds. That
is the hurdle.
Let us talk about what the future may bring. It may come to
pass, it may already be here or we may be very close to it, that
technology and science may allow the taking of a DNA sample
without that degree of intrusiveness. The simple pressing of a
finger or a palm against a plate may allow the taking of a DNA
sample. If that is the case, if that is the degree of
intrusiveness, then we may indeed have something similar to a
fingerprint. We take fingerprints now not on conviction but at
charge.
We have to get to the point where the sampling process is simply
not intrusive, as non-intrusive as the taking of a fingerprint,
and we are not quite there yet. There are half a dozen ways to
get a sufficient sample for an analysis here and none of them are
quite as simple as the thumbprint. We have not got that yet.
I am told and at committee we seemed to have information which
indicated that technology is moving at a pace now where we may be
able to extract a sufficient DNA sample from something similar to
blowing into a breathalyser or taking a palm print. When we get
there, society and the law may accept that we can take DNA
samples at charge or at birth or whenever. This is an issue
Canadians doubtless are going to have to address in the future.
I will leave the subject matter there. The 10 minutes has run
by rather quickly. As a legislator, if I am still around in this
place in a few years, one never knows, but the House will
doubtless have an opportunity to enhance and upgrade the DNA
provisions of the Criminal Code just as we have done for the last
five or 10 years. We will get another kick at the cat, and no
offence to the cats of Canada. I hope we do get there and I hope
the DNA data bank created by the bill gets off and running
quickly so the RCMP can do their best to enhance public safety as
intended by the bill.
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I have
just a couple of points I would like to put on the record in this
final reading debate of Bill C-3. I would like to follow up on
the closing remarks of the hon. member for Scarborough—Rouge
River.
During the examination of the bill by the justice committee of
which we were both members, the record will show that the justice
officials who appeared before the committee on two different
occasions indicated there was a necessity to go slow on the
taking of DNA samples. There must be some degree of reluctance
to move into the area we are asking the government to take the
bill. At a later date we could do that. I think this was the
inference by my hon. colleague who spoke last, let us give this
some time and let us advance the bill into these areas after some
time has elapsed.
1340
To me the inference of this is that the judges may rule
something unconstitutional today that they are going to rule
constitutional tomorrow. If that is the case, then I would
suggest the three independent legal opinions that were submitted
late by the government on this bill are simply redundant and
meaningless.
I add as well that I have listened to many of the speakers
today. They do not seem to understand that their concerns over
the intrusive nature of taking a blood sample, a hair sample or a
saliva swab have already passed the constitutional test. It is
there in the Criminal Code now for something that is not always
tried by indictment, impaired driving. At least one of the former
judges who submitted a legal opinion on this bill referred to
that fact. If it is not a constitutional violation to take a
blood sample in connection with an impaired driving charge which
may be tried by indictment or summary conviction, then why would
it be unconstitutional now to take a blood sample, the most
intrusive of three methods of taking a DNA sample from a human
being?
We examined these two very strongly presented arguments against
going beyond what the bill does now, which is the intrusive
nature of it as well as the privacy of the individual. We heard
many times from witnesses as well as from members of the
committee. I believe we heard it here today during this final
debate that the extensive nature of the information gained from a
DNA sample is what causes people to be concerned about allowing
this to occur.
We know every day there are blood samples taken and lodged in
clinics and in a bank somewhere. The detrimental or negative
impact of having those samples somewhere in a data bank has not
resulted in the negative aspects which many witnesses and members
of the government have put forward would occur if we went beyond
where the bill takes us today.
My colleague from Scarborough—Rouge River referred to another
point, the rapid advancement of the technology to take DNA
samples. There may come a day when we will leave a sample on the
barbershop floor that will be suitable for DNA testing. We know
that a blood sample is taken when every child is born. The sample
is lodged somewhere in a data bank at least for a certain period
of time.
When we examine the privacy aspect and the intrusive nature, and
I can refer hon. colleagues back to the record of the witnesses
who appeared before the committee, there is just not an arguable,
sustainable, logical, comprehensive debate on either of these two
issues to deny further advancement of the taking of DNA samples
at the time of charge. It simply does not exist.
My hon. colleague from the Tory party who sits on the committee
has touched upon the real reason we are not going as far as we
should be going to satisfy the needs of the Canadian Police
Association and other law enforcement spokespersons as well as
members in the opposition parties. There is fear and concern and
a degree of timidity with regard to what the Supreme Court of
Canada will say.
1345
I go back to my opening comments. If we are to go slow or to go
into the area we want the bill to cover at a later date because
of a fear that if we bring it in too early the supreme court will
strike it down, we are really saying that what it declares
unconstitutional today it will not declare unconstitutional
tomorrow as it gets used to it and as it becomes part of our
legal system, the legislation and the process. That is wrong.
What is constitutional today must be constitutional tomorrow. How
can what is constitutional today be unconstitutional tomorrow?
I do not understand or comprehend that argument. Inasmuch as we
have opened the door and entered the room of taking samples from
those who are convicted and incarcerated for designated primary
offences, we have taken that step and will take samples from
certain individuals.
What is the difference in going beyond that? Why is there a
reluctance to go beyond that and include all primary designated
offences in that category? I do not understand. When we asked
that question before the committee the answers were not
comprehensible to me and were not justifiable in refusing to move
further into that area.
I wrap up my comments by saying we all know the bill is moving
in the right direction. However, the role of the opposition is
to leave its concern indelibly marked on any document it does not
feel is in the best interest of Canadians.
The government is to move this bill forward and it will pass. I
hope members of the Senate will take a hard look at what we have
been asking for, what the Canadian Police Association has been
asking for and what others have been asking for. Some good work
comes out of the other place regardless of our feelings about its
make-up and constitution. When it gets to the Senate I hope the
committee that looks at it will examine our concerns and why
opposition members could not endorse the bill.
Perhaps the government is right. Perhaps in time all our
requirements will be met. The problem is that it is a matter of
safety, of concern and of providing the police with the tools
they could have now but will not have on the passage of the bill.
This is a shortcoming we cannot accept and must object to. We
will do so by the way we vote on the bill in the House.
Mr. Jerry Pickard (Chatham—Kent Essex, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it is a privilege for me today to speak to Bill C-3
which provides for the establishment of a national DNA data bank.
The DNA identification act will make Canada one of only a
handful of countries in the world to have a national DNA data
bank. I am pleased to inform the House that the ground breaking
legislation this measure supports will signify Canada as a mover
in the world community on a very special base as one of a handful
of countries that has gone forward with this type of legislation.
This new legislation strengthens our commitment to combat crime,
especially violent crime in Canada. The plan that was developed
early in July 1995 gave provincial judges the power o put
together warrants which allowed police, after they collected
samples, to identify people who had committed serious offences.
We have stepped forward today by adding a law which will usefully
put together a framework for DNA samples in a data bank.
1350
This is another concrete step toward protecting Canadians from
violent criminals. We should make no mistake. Bill C-3 gives
Canadian police access to a powerful tool in its fight against
crime. As we all know, forensic DNA analysis has been
instrumental in securing convictions. It has also been crucial
in helping to exonerate wrongly condemned people, but it also
raises potential privacy and charter concerns because it has the
ability to reveal much more of a person than what a fingerprint
would reveal.
Given the magnitude of these issues surrounded by the use or
potential misuse of DNA information, the government has taken
steps to ensure that a detailed and careful study of the
legislation has taken place.
The legislation was referred to the Standing Committee on
Justice and Human Rights before second reading. The government
also went to Canadians to hear what they wanted to say. Bill C-3
reflects the views of Canadians across the country. The
reflections came from a broad spectrum of Canadians which
included police associations, victims groups, legal
organizations, provincial attorneys general, academics, privacy
experts and medical people. The committee was vigilant in making
sure it heard from those with concerns over the charter and from
those whose overriding concern was public safety. The goal has
always been to protect Canadians from violent criminals.
Some other issues were discussed as well. The data bank will
include two indexes: a scene of the crime index containing DNA
profiles from actual crime scenes and a convicted offenders index
containing profiles of offenders convicted of designated
offences. With this structure, stored DNA information can be
cross-referenced in order to identify linkages and to help solve
serious crimes in any police jurisdiction anywhere in the
country.
Sharing information is the key to successful arrests of
offenders. Bill C-3 sets out the circumstances where samples can
be taken and stored in a data bank. Where a person has been
convicted of a primary designated offence the court will, except
in most exceptional circumstances, make an order requiring that
person to submit bodily substances for data bank purposes. Where
a person has been convicted of a secondary designated offence and
where the crown makes an application to the court, the bill lets
the judge make an order requiring the offender to provide bodily
substances for DNA banking purposes. In making that order the
court must satisfy that it has the interest of administration and
justice in order.
The primary and secondary designated offences listed in the bill
were developed on the basis of the serious nature of the offences
and the likelihood of finding DNA evidence at the scene of the
crime. DNA samples are most likely to be found at crime scenes
of primary offences like those of murder and sexual assault. On
the other hand, DNA evidence is less likely to be found at the
scenes of secondary offence crimes such as those of robbery or
arson.
Taking samples after an offender has been convicted balances an
overriding concern for the safety of all Canadians. It also
takes into account the need to respect the rights protected by
Canada's charter. The accused has the right to presume innocence
and protection from unreasonable search and seizure. I think
members would agree with that statement.
The issue of when DNA samples should be taken has garnered much
attention throughout the development of the bill. The vast
majority of Canadians we spoke with said that taking samples from
convicted persons is the only way to respect the rights of all
Canadians under the charter. The majority of those consulted
also took the position that taking samples at the time of arrest
or charge would pose a very serious risk of being struck down as
unconstitutional. Legal experts from the Department of Justice
and three of Canada's most eminent justices have told the
government that taking samples before a conviction would be
unconstitutional.
I think we can all agree developing legislation that will be
thrown out by the courts is not useful for the justice system and
not useful for Canadians who look to parliament to develop
appropriate legislation.
1355
Bill C-3 will not only capture serious offenders following
conviction. It will also permit DNA samples to be collected from
high risk violent offenders under penitentiary sentence who were
convicted before the bill comes into law. Samples will be taken
retroactively from the designations of dangerous offenders,
repeated sex offenders and murderers who have killed more than
once. Collection of DNA samples from these offenders will give
police valuable information to help them solve outstanding
criminal cases.
Young offenders will be treated in the same way as adults with
respect to taking DNA samples for the purpose of data banking.
The DNA extracted from a sample will be analysed with the
resulting profile entered into the convicted offenders index of
the data bank.
Bill C-3 authorizes the RCMP to establish and maintain a data
bank. It is worth noting that access to DNA profiles contained
in the convicted offenders index and the samples themselves will
be strictly limited to those directly involved in the operation
of the data bank.
There is no question that this law is very appropriate at this
time. It will provide a service to Canadian police officers so
that they will be able to pursue and follow up in a much more
scientific way on actions of violent crime in the country. I
recommend that every member of the House support the bill in the
name of criminal justice.
* * *
[Translation]
SUPPLEMENTARY REPORT OF THE AUDITOR GENERAL OF
CANADA
The Speaker: I have the honour to lay upon the table the
supplementary report of the Auditor General of Canada to the
House of Commons, Volume II, for September 1998.
[English]
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(e), this document is deemed to
have been permanently referred to the Standing Committee on
Public Accounts.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
HUMANITARIANS
Mr. Jerry Pickard (Chatham—Kent Essex, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am privileged to recognize Heather Bondy and Crystal
Smith, two outstanding humanitarians from Chatham—Kent Essex.
Heather is the driving force behind Chatham Outreach for Hunger.
She has raised thousands of dollars and collected tonnes of food,
hospital and school supplies which have been taken to the
Dominican Republic, Zaire and Uganda where she has personally
delivered that aid. Heather is presently planning to deliver
tens of thousands of dollars in aid to Haiti.
Crystal Smith, a 20 year old student, works in an orphanage in
Ukraine that houses many victims of Chernobyl. The orphanage was
called “The Place that God Forgot”. Thanks to Crystal, it is
now the place that God remembers.
I thank Heather and Crystal for their great work. All the
citizens of this country are very supportive of their efforts. I
add a thanks to Air Canada, British Airways and the Department of
National—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Calgary East.
* * *
FIRST MINISTERS CONFERENCE
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, at
the December 1997 first ministers meeting the premiers and the
Prime Minister agreed to begin a process which would result in a
better, more efficient social union for all Canadians.
Since then the provinces and territories have been hard at work
negotiating on issues vital to Canadians such as education,
social welfare and health. They have unanimously agreed to an
arrangement in the design of social programs in areas of
provincial jurisdiction. In short, the provinces have embarked
on a project which seeks to improve their partnership with the
federal government.
How has the Prime Minister responded to these overtures? By
stating “If the premiers do not want to take what I am offering,
they take nothing”. This is Liberal co-operative federalism in
action.
The official opposition congratulates the premiers of Canada for
working on behalf of all Canadians and we call upon the Prime
Minister to begin doing the same.
* * *
1400
ARTHRITIS
Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur (Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, September is arthritis month in Canada.
Arthritis is a painful, debilitating disease that threatens the
independence and quality of life of more than four million people
in Canada. More than 600,000 Canadians are disabled by it.
Direct and indirect costs associated with arthritis and related
disorders in Canada are nearly $18 billion a year.
With no cure yet, some symptoms and consequences can be lessened
through research, education and healthier lifestyles.
September is the month we recognize the Arthritis Society's
efforts and its thousands of volunteers. For 50 years the
Arthritis Society has contributed over $100 million for research,
striving to find a cure.
I ask the House to join me in wishing the Arthritis Society a
very successful month.
* * *
HEALTH
Ms. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
Liberals have allowed health care to deteriorate and the lives of
Canadians are at risk.
Nowhere is the problem more severe than among the first nations
where diseases such as TB, diabetes and HIV are rampant. This
problem is aggravated by unacceptable housing conditions in many
first nations. Families live in overcrowded houses without
modern sewage facilities and are deprived of safe drinking water.
It is reprehensible for the government to allow these third
world conditions to persist. The government must honour its
obligations to the first nations and take meaningful action to
alleviate this crisis.
* * *
WILLIAM HANCOX
Mr. John McKay (Scarborough East, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise today to invite you and my colleagues in this House to pay
tribute to the late Detective Constable William Hancox who was
killed on duty August 4 of this year.
Billy Hancox was not a man the world would call a hero. He was
not a famous general, a superior athlete or a noted statesman.
He was our neighbour, a decent man whose wife Kimberley and
daughter Sandra will remember his kindness and happy nature. His
son Sean, born after his death, will tragically never know him.
Billy Hancox wanted to be a police officer to serve and protect
the rest of us in the community and he lost his life doing so.
Every time he went to work he knew there were risks but he
accepted that responsibility.
We should expand our understanding of the word hero to include
Billy Hancox, his wife and his family who represent everything
that is honourable in Canadian society.
* * *
THE ENVIRONMENT
Mr. David Pratt (Nepean—Carleton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
climate change is the greatest global environmental threat we
face. It is imperative that we have an international plan to
reduce greenhouse gases and meet the climate change challenge
head on.
Last week this government co-hosted with Brazil a ministerial
clean development mechanism forum. The purpose of the forum was
to listen, ask questions and move toward an international
consensus on what needs to be done to implement the CDM.
The CDM is one of the international mechanisms agreed on in
the Kyoto protocol which will help parties to achieve their
emission reduction obligations.
By working in a global partnership we can successfully reduce
our greenhouse gas emissions while continuing to develop our
economies in a sustainable manner. The forum is an example of
this government's commitment to working co-operatively with all
countries seeking to develop a global climate change solution
which will work for developed and developing countries and the
environment. This can be a win-win-win situation for all.
* * *
THE SENATE
Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister's arrogance in
appointing a senator for Alberta has left a bad taste not only in
Alberta but in British Columbia.
This approach, this total disregard for the citizens' desire to
elect a senator, does nothing for unity in our country. How can
the Prime Minister expect co-operation from any of the provinces
when he shows such contempt for the people and their provincial
governments?
In B.C. we experienced this contempt during the salmon dispute
with the U.S. Atlantic Canada saw this arrogance with the east
coast fishery. Manitoba saw it with the Red River flood and the
federal election call. Ontario seems to be in constant conflict
with the federal government.
This past spring the 10 provincial premiers met to discuss a
social union and amazingly came out of this meeting with almost
unheard of agreement with all 10 premiers on a social accord.
What was the Prime Minister's response? Outright refusal to
consider this agreement.
Prime Minister, how can this arrogant, combative approach help
Canadian unity?
* * *
JOHN EAKINS
Mr. John O'Reilly (Haliburton—Victoria—Brock, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I rise today to pay tribute to a dedicated and
hardworking former member of provincial parliament from my
riding, the late John Eakins.
1405
John Eakins passed away in Hamilton on September 16, 1998 while
undergoing cancer therapy treatments where he was staying to be
closer to his family.
Mr. Eakins was first elected to the Ontario legislature in the
riding of Victoria—Haliburton in 1975 and served five terms
until he retired before the 1990 election. From 1985-87 he was
Minister of Tourism and Recreation and after that Minister of
Municipal Affairs.
Prior to entering politics Mr. Eakins served as a councillor in
the town of Lindsay for three years and mayor of the town for six
years. He was well respected by his constituents and he was a
friend to many he served.
I would like to thank John for his many years of public service
and ask that this House offer condolences to his family.
* * *
[Translation]
THE LATE PRIVATE GILLES DESMARAIS
Mr. Benoît Serré (Timiskaming—Cochrane, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it
is with great sadness that I rise today to inform the House of
the death of Gilles Desmarais, a Canadian serviceman who was
serving with the NATO peacekeeping force in Bosnia. Private
Desmarais died on Friday, September 25, 1998, after being
accidentally electrocuted in a Canadian camp.
Private Desmarais was 23 years old. He was born in Noëlville, in
my riding, and had been serving in Bosnia since early July. He
was scheduled to return to Canada at the end of January 1999.
[English]
He was a three year veteran of the regular Canadian Forces,
having also previously served as a reservist with the Second
Battalion of the Irish Regiment in Sudbury, Ontario.
[Translation]
I wish to extend to the family and friends of Private Desmarais
my most sincere condolences. My thoughts and prayers are with
them as they go through this difficult time.
[English]
I take this opportunity to salute all our Canadian Forces troops
serving on peacekeeping missions. These fine women and men put
their lives at risk on a daily basis for their country and for—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Lotbiniere.
* * *
[Translation]
SCRAPIE
Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, 11,000
sheep have been arbitrarily destroyed since January 1997. Who
will put an end to this carnage, which imperils the entire sheep
industry in Quebec?
No one in the Liberal government opposite can answer this
question, as this government has put the management
responsibility in the hands of the Canadian Food Inspection
Agency, and this agency lacks transparency on this issue.
Information is either diluted or non-available.
Officials of this federal agency—this commando created by the
Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food—are traumatizing sheep
farmers by harassing them on the phone, showing up unannounced
to inspect their sheep barns, threatening punitive action or
providing them with incomplete information.
Enough is enough. The federal government must act and stop
putting forward measures that do nothing except show how
incompetent and arrogant the minister is.
* * *
[English]
VICTIMS OF VIOLENCE
Mr. Chuck Cadman (Surrey North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, last
Friday night my wife and I presented our son's memorial
scholarship to a young aspiring musician. Our son had similar
dreams. His drums are now silent in the basement and we think
what if? Young adults leaving the nest, a ritual he was denied.
On Saturday we attended the annual soccer tournament held in his
memory. More than 300 boisterous young boys. His goalie gloves
were cremated with him. We remember.
On Sunday his mother presented trophies and then attended a
bridal shower for one of his friends. Pain only a mother can
know. Soon we will mark the sixth anniversary of the evil which
cut his young life short.
I am privileged to be able to speak in this place not only for
my family but for thousands of other families that endure a
similar grief in silent anonymity.
Our laws allow too many excuses for violence, everything from a
disadvantaged childhood to drug abuse. Predators forget.
Families do not. Our considerations belong with them, the silent
ones.
* * *
[Translation]
SOCIÉTÉ SAINT-JEAN-BAPTISTE
Mr. Denis Paradis (Brome—Missisquoi, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, last
Saturday, in Orford, a municipality located in Brome—Missisquoi,
Prime Minister Jean Chrétien became a lifetime member of the
Société Saint-Jean-Baptiste, in the diocese of Sherbrooke.
Like Sir Wilfrid Laurier before him, the Prime Minister reminded
us that French Canadians have played a prominent role in the
history of our country, as one of the two founding nations.
I would like to mention the hard work of Micheline Dupuis and
Marcel Bureau, with the 11,000 members of the Société
Saint-Jean-Baptiste in Sherbrooke, of Gaston Deschamps, with the
33,000 members of the society in the diocese of Valleyfield, and
of Léo Gagné, with the 6,000 members of the society in the
diocese of Quebec City.
Let us follow in the footsteps of Wilfrid Laurier, the first
French Canadian to become Prime Minister of the country.
* * *
1410
INTERNATIONAL YEAR OF THE OCEAN
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
United Nations has declared 1998 International Year of the
Ocean, in an effort to raise public awareness of the importance
of our oceans and of the vital nature of the marine world.
In the Lower St. Lawrence region, the marine world impacts on
our cultural and social reality, and it is an essential
component of our economic life, partly because of its fishery
resources and its potential for the tourist industry.
The riding of Rimouski—Mitis is known internationally in the
field of marine sciences.
In addition to the Institut maritime du Québec—the only
institution to provide a college education program—we have
distinguished professors and researchers at the INRS-Oceanology,
UQAR's department of oceanography, the Fisheries and Oceans
Research Centre, and the Maurice-Lamontagne Institute.
While respecting and preserving marine resources is definitely a
collective responsibility, the government must act as a leader
in improving management, at the international level, of the
world's oceans.
* * *
MAISON PARENT-ROBACK
Mrs. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I take great pride in reporting that the Maison
Parent-Roback was officially opened last Sunday in Montreal.
It groups together 12 provincial women's groups working to
improve the conditions of women in such varied areas as the
economy, culture, health and the campaign to eradicate violence
against women.
It is also worthy of mention that the secretary of state
responsible for the status of women has contributed a total of
$795,000 since last April to 9 of these 12 provincial women's
groups.
The corporation selected the name Parent-Roback for the building
in order to pay tribute to the work and friendship of two
pioneers in the women's movement, Madeleine Parent and Léa
Roback.
We are very proud of this government for its support of this
type of project for the women of Quebec and Canada.
* * *
[English]
JUSTICE
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr. Speaker,
seven years ago James Mills was murdered while a prisoner of the
federal prison in Renous, New Brunswick. Yes, he was convicted of
a crime but he was not condemned to death.
For seven years the Mills family has waited for justice to be
served. For seven years the file has been passed from
corrections Canada to the RCMP to the New Brunswick crown
prosecutor.
I understand that on two previous occasions the RCMP turned the
file over to the crown prosecutor and recommended that charges be
laid.
Recently the RCMP have reported they have turned over new
evidence to the crown prosecutor. Hopefully with the new
evidence the crown prosecutor can now take action that will
finally give the Mills family some closure.
I sincerely commend the solicitor general for his personal
attention to this file and for pressing for further
investigation.
Now I ask the solicitor general to do all he can to ensure that
the appropriate authorities follow through to once and for all
resolve the murder of James Mills.
* * *
LAND MINES
Mr. Ted McWhinney (Vancouver Quadra, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the land mines treaty, opened for signature in Ottawa last
December and quickly signed by more than 120 states, has now
entered into legal force, the 40th ratification having occurred
this month in record time.
It may be argued on doctrinal legal authority that the treaty
because of the number of state adherents has now become part of
the general principles of international law and binding as such
even on non-adhering states.
Apart from this a challenge of Canadian diplomacy may be to
persuade the holdout states to declare significant parts at least
of the new treaty as fully binding upon them in the conduct of
their foreign policy.
* * *
VETERANS AFFAIRS
Mr. Mark Muise (West Nova, PC): Mr. Speaker, since being
elected to represent West Nova I have worked diligently with
World War II veterans and residents of Cornwallis for the return
of their stained glass windows.
These memorial windows were donated to CFB Cornwallis by naval
recruits who wanted to commemorate all those lost on our navy
ships during the battle of the Atlantic.
Since the closure of the base the residents have demanded the
return of the stained glass windows for display in their new
naval museum. Sadly the Minister of National Defence has
steadfastly refused to return these windows to their rightful
place.
I ask all members of the House to look up at the beautiful
windows and imagine what this place would look like if they were
removed and replaced by a sheet of plexiglas. Perhaps now they
understand why the residents of Cornwallis want so desperately to
display the windows in their chapel.
1415
Mr. Minister, perhaps you believe the battle over the stained
glass windows is over, but let me tell you, for the residents of
Cornwallis the battle has just begun.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the law on employment insurance is clear. If there is a
surplus because the government has been overcharging employers
and workers, then the money belongs to them and it is illegal for
the Prime Minister to take that money and use it for something
else.
Why does the Prime Minister not obey the law and give those
excess funds back to the workers and employers to whom they
belong?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, there is a debate going on at this moment in preparation
for the budget and how to deal with the finances of the nation in
the next budget. Some representations have been made to the
government that it would be more advisable perhaps to cut income
tax than to do that because it will go into the pockets of the
taxpayers and not to the corporations.
There is a debate. I know that the Leader of the Opposition
does not want that money to be used to cut income tax. We know
that. It is part of the debate.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, why is the government even contemplating breaking the
law? If the Prime Minister loots the employment insurance fund,
who precisely is he taking this money from? He is taking it from
the small business person, the factory worker, the construction
worker, the clerk, the waitress, to whom these funds belong.
Who will stand up for the rights of these workers and employers
if the Prime Minister will not?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it is pretty nice to have a problem like this one when
we have run the nation in such a way that we have a problem with
surpluses. If we had operated a government the way that it was
operated before, we would still be at a 11.4% unemployment level.
Now we are at 8.3% and it is going down, and 1.2 million new jobs
have been created in Canada in the last five years.
We have the problem that the government has probably been too
good to the satisfaction—-
The Speaker: The hon. Leader of the Opposition.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, we are talking about to whom do these surpluses belong.
We are talking about obeying the law. We are talking about funds
that were contributed in trust. We are not talking about general
revenues and we are not talking about some Liberal slush fund
that the government can spend however it pleases.
Will the Prime Minister tell his tax addicted finance minister
to keep his hands off the employment insurance fund?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I think that the Minister of Finance has been pretty
good. I see that we have reduced the deficit from $42 billion to
zero. I see that we have less than 1% inflation. I see that the
Financial Times of London has said that in terms of finance
management, we are the top dogs of the G-7.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
government is calling for a debate to cover up its planned raid
on the $6 billion EI overpayment. We are no more entitled to
debate the raiding of the EI fund than we are entitled to debate
the raiding of the Prime Minister's own personal RRSP. The EI
fund is not his money to spend. That is what the law says.
Why does the Prime Minister not respect the law and give workers
and employers that money back? Respect the law.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the consolidation of this fund with the consolidated
revenue of Canada was done long before we formed the government.
There is no slush fund. It is just the money available to the
government for the operation of the government. The Minister of
Finance and rightly so is doing something that did not exist
before, having a public debate before preparing his budget.
As usual, like the past five years, the Reform Party is all over
the place.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
what the Prime Minister is saying is that the end justifies the
means and they will break any law they have to in order to get
their hands on taxpayers' money.
1420
Mr. Speaker, if the government cannot—
The Speaker: I would ask the hon. member to go to his
question, please.
Mr. Monte Solberg: Mr. Speaker, instead of trying to
change the law to raid the money they are not entitled to by law,
why do they not just obey the law and give that money back to
workers and employers? Obey the law.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, there are some people who think it would be better if
the money was to go into the taxpayers' pockets rather than into
the coffers of some corporation. Sixty per cent of the money is
going to the corporations and 40% to the taxpayers. Some think
it might be better to give it to those who earned the money
working on an hourly basis.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, since
the Minister of Finance was caught helping himself to the EI
surplus, the only excuse he has managed to come up with is that
a broad debate is necessary to determine the use to which this
surplus should be put.
Will the Prime Minister admit that the real debate, the one that
is urgently required, is not about what to do with the money
lifted from the pockets of workers, the unemployed and small
businesses,
but about why the Minister of Finance took money that was not
his to take?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
would point out to the hon. member that, if we had stuck with
the legislation passed by the Conservative government, premiums
on January 1, 1994 would have been $3.30 on every $100, but we
reduced them in successive budgets to $2.70.
Before taking any further decision, the Minister of Finance
wants to have everyone's opinion. But apparently the Bloc
Quebecois would like the money to go to companies rather than
employees.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
reading of the situation is that the Minister of Finance—aided
and abetted by the Prime Minister—dipped into the pockets of
workers, the unemployed and small businesses.
He should realize that the only reason there is a surplus is
that there are unemployed workers who no longer qualify for
benefits, even though they have paid their premiums, and that
some workers are paying more than they need to. These are
average folks whom the Prime Minister probably does not know,
having spent so much time on Bay Street.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
people understand that 1.2 million new jobs have been created
since this government was elected in 1993. They understand that
the level of unemployment has dropped from 11.4% to 8.3%.
And they understand that, because the fund has been very well
administered, we now have a surplus, which we are going to
administer, as we have always done, with care so as to serve the
interests of all taxpayers.
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the Minister of Human Resources
Development said in this House that he was trying, with the help
of Statistics Canada, to figure out why the participation rate
in the employment insurance system has been dropping, to the
point where only two out of every five Canadians out of work now
collect benefits.
Does not the minister not yet realize that, while he is trying
to find out why an increasingly smaller number of unemployed
persons qualify for benefits, his colleague, the Minister of
Finance, has already made off with the fund and is now wondering
how to spend money what belongs to the unemployed?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, first of all, we must
understand that contributions to the employment insurance fund
are not made exclusively by workers, but also by employers and
major businesses. So, enough of the Bloc's demagoguery.
We are fully aware that we must take—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Human Resources Development
has the floor.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew: So, we are aware that the participation
of workers in the employment insurance system is extremely
important to ensure the program's integrity, and that is why we
want to make sure we fully understand the figures and numbers
before taking appropriate action.
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, what I understood is that the Minister of
Human Development Resources is holding the bag while the
Minister of Finance is digging into it with both hands.
How can the minister explain that, with the powers vested in him
by law, he was unable to stop the Minister of Finance from
plundering the employment insurance fund?
1425
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I want to point out to Bloc
Quebecois members that a decision has yet to be made.
Also, we have been working closely with the Minister of Finance
for a number of years. This co-operation between the Minister of
Finance and myself, under the direction of the Prime Minister
and together with the support of our colleagues, has led to the
national child benefit, aimed at eliminating family poverty.
We have also set up a transition program, the Transitional Job
Fund, in regions where the unemployment rate is too high.
We have created a fund to help students who had problems
completing—
The Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. minister, but I
now give the floor to the hon. leader of the New Democratic
Party.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my question is
for the Prime Minister.
All workers in this country pay employment insurance premiums.
Despite their contributions, however, three out of five
unemployed persons do not receive any benefits. Yet the
Minister of Finance is drooling at the prospect of getting his
hands on a slice of the employment insurance pie.
Before he gets his hands on the whole thing, has this government
given even one thought to the Canadians who contributed to this
fund and yet are getting nothing from it?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister,Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Human Resources
Development and myself have said we want a debate on what should
be in the next budget. There are all kinds of ideas on this.
Some people feel the best thing to do would be to make the fund
available to workers and not to employers.
We are going to look at things, we are going to get everyone's
opinion, and we are going to find a reasonable solution, as we
always do, one that has the interests of workers and of the
Canadian economy at heart.
[English]
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, 800,000
Canadians who are unemployed in this country today are not
receiving any employment insurance benefits. That is because the
government has changed the rules to make them ineligible.
The Prime Minister talks about choices, about a debate of what
to do with the employment insurance fund but he never talks about
reinvesting any of those funds in supporting the unemployed and
their families. Is he saying that improving access or improving
benefits are not among the choices?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we are having a debate at this time. We want to make
sure that the money is used for the interests of the workers.
We have all sorts of programs being discussed to maintain what
we have been able to do. We want to carry on helping those who
need it most. That has been the policy of this government. We
are having a public debate at this time and would like the
contribution of her party.
The government will make a decision that will be part of the
federal budget next February.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, yesterday
the finance minister said that this government will not “give up
that area of its financial manoeuvring” when asked about the
surplus in the EI fund.
The EI fund was not set up to be the finance minister's wriggle
room. He is not being asked to give up something that belongs to
him. The money in the fund is paid by Canadian workers and
employers. That money does not belong to the finance minister or
to any member of this government.
When will this government stop treating the EI fund like its
personal line of credit and give back a tax break to the
employers and the employees?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the leader of the Conservative Party is not interested
in having a tax cut for employees only. She is very keen that we
give the money to the employers. If we do that, 60% of the money
will go to the employers and only 40% will go to the employees.
If that is the position of the Conservative Party, fine. We know
it prefers to give money to business instead of to employees.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, I want
to tell you that I heard here today from the Prime Minister about
how the government has created jobs. Let me say that we have
never had as high an unemployment rate in the city of Saint John
in the last 25 years as we have today.
The Minister of Veterans Affairs, all the merchant navy vets who
are on a hunger strike and who want their compensation—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
1430
The Speaker: The hon. leader of the Conservative Party.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Veterans
Affairs told the members of the merchant navy, who are on a
hunger strike and who want fair compensation, “I am not offering
anything”. The Minister of Health told the innocent victims of
tainted blood that the file was closed.
Is the government now telling Canadian workers that the EI fund
is its personal piggy bank, open for taxpayer contributions but
closed for payroll taxes?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, perhaps the leader of the Conservative Party should talk
to the member of parliament for the city of Saint John about its
problem.
The reality is that 1.2 million new jobs have been created since
October 1993. The level of unemployment that existed at the time
of the Conservative government was 11.4%. Now it is 8.3% and
going down.
We will not take the advice of the leader of the Tory party and
go back to the good old days of the Tories.
* * *
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Mike Scott (Skeena, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, on August 24
Leona Freed wrote to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development and the Minister of Health complaining about the
sewage system on her reserve. That letter was illegally leaked
back to her chief and council and she is facing a lawsuit as a
result.
Yesterday—
The Speaker: Colleagues, I appeal to you. We are having
a tough time hearing the questions and the answers.
The hon. member for Skeena.
Mr. Mike Scott: Mr. Speaker, on August 24 Leona Freed
wrote to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
and the Minister of Health complaining about the sewage system on
her reserve. Her letter was illegally leaked to the chief and
council and she is facing a potential lawsuit as a result.
Yesterday the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development accused the Minister of Health of leaking that
letter. We would like to know from the Minister of Health: Is
that true? Did your office leak that letter?
The Speaker: Colleagues, please address the Chair when
you are asking your questions and giving your answers.
The hon. Minister of Health.
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
a letter of August 24 was received by a Health Canada official
from Leona Freed complaining about a broken sewer pipe that was
apparently draining into a creek. She was worried about it being
a health threat and she demanded immediate action.
The Health Canada official, anxious to solve this problem,
forwarded a copy of this letter to the tribal council which is
responsible for fixing it, and then set to work on getting the
problem fixed.
Sending on that letter was not in keeping with protocol. That
official has written to Leona Freed to express regret. We have
re-circulated the protocol to remind all officials—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Skeena.
Mr. Mike Scott (Skeena, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is good
to see the minister acknowledging wrongdoing.
Given the government's past performance with regard to
confidentiality we would like to know: Is the minister aware
that this is a breach of privacy? It was found to be so in the
spring when the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development violated Bruce Starlight's privacy. What is the
government going to do to ensure this does not happen again? We
do not want to be back here in six months with the same problem.
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the letter that was sent to the health official was copied to the
Reform Party's critic, the member for Skeena. It was also copied
to the provincial minister. It was about a leaking sewage pipe.
There was nothing on its face to demonstrate confidentiality.
The Health Canada official acted in good faith to get the
problem fixed. I have already said that he has expressed regret
and we have circulated the protocol.
In the meantime, the problem has been fixed. What we are left
with is the Reform Party messing around with this issue.
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, three
unemployed individuals in five are no longer entitled to
employment insurance benefits. In Canada now only one young
unemployed young person in four is entitled to benefits. The
employment insurance reform is a catastrophe.
1435
After we thought we had hit the bottom of the barrel with Doug
Young, we now realize that things are worse than ever for the
unemployed.
Given the responsibilities of the Minister of Human Resources
Development under the Employment Insurance Act, will he
expressly oppose any change to the law?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I want to tell the former
leader of the Bloc Quebecois how committed the government is to
young Canadians.
This is why we set up, outside the employment insurance fund, a
youth employment strategy in order to help young people gain
entry into the labour market. The hon. member is asking us to
help young people go on unemployment. What interests us is
helping them enter the labour market.
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, unlike what is
happening opposite, every Bloc Quebecois member without
exception is asking the minister to look after the unemployed.
Some hon. members: Right.
Mr. Michel Gauthier: Does the Minister of Human Resources
Development realize that, through his incompetence and lack of
concern, he has made the unemployed the government's cash cow,
no more no less?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, what our government has done is
put a lot more money in the pockets of the unemployed in terms
of active measures to get them into the labour market.
We have invested more than any other government in training. We
reached with the Government of Quebec an agreement on manpower
under which we will transfer $500 million annually to the
province to provide training.
We have established a modern system adapted to today's labour
market and we intend to continue serving Canadians well.
* * *
[English]
SOCIAL INSURANCE NUMBERS
Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
auditor general tabled his report today with the usual stories of
mismanagement in government. We find that there are millions of
social insurance cards circulating in Canada with no legitimate
owners. In a sample test of 3,600 cards the auditor general
found that one-third were being used to defraud the government of
millions of dollars.
My question is for the Minister of National Revenue. Will he
tell Canadians how many millions of dollars we are paying on
these fraudulent cards and why he has not stopped this abuse
already?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have read the auditor
general's report very carefully and we agree completely with the
auditor general's recommendations. We need to improve the
integrity of the social insurance number. My department has
already begun to work on every one of the recommendations of the
auditor general, both the recommendations on the social insurance
number and on the registry. We intend to continue to have good
collaboration with him.
Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, all I
can say is thank goodness for the auditor general, but I do not
know what to say about the government. It issued temporary cards
with no expiry date. It has issued 600,000 temporary cards, yet
there are only 200,000 legitimate users in Canada.
We have already heard the minister say they are going to fix
this, but why has this not already been fixed? We have spent
millions of dollars paying these fraudulent claims which should
have been stopped years ago. When is the government going to be
accountable for that type of inaction?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have already begun work
on the integrity of the system. It is very important that we
actually improve it. We are following up on the recommendations
of the auditor general.
As the member knows, much of the information comes from the
provinces, for instance when a Canadian citizen dies. Along with
the provincial governments we are improving the situation. They
are feeding information into our systems so the kind of anomalies
and frauds the hon. member is referring to will not happen too
often.
1440
We are working hard at improving the system alongside the
provinces and I am confident that it will be better very shortly.
[Translation]
Mr. Serge Cardin (Sherbrooke, BQ): Mr. Speaker, according to
Human Resources Development Canada data, there are more than
311,000 people over 100 years old in Canada. It would also seem
that there are three times more temporary social insurance
numbers than there are temporary residents in Canada.
Does the Minister of Human Resources Development realize that,
by failing in the management of social insurance numbers, he is
becoming a party to real or potential frauds?
The Speaker: The question, as it stands, is not acceptable. I
would ask the hon. member to please move to his supplementary.
Mr. Serge Cardin (Sherbrooke, BQ): Mr. Speaker, not only should
there be an RCMP investigation to shed light on this issue, but
will the minister recognize it is his duty to explain to the
public why it was only after the auditor general became involved
that it was discovered that the minister had lost control over
social insurance numbers?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my department has been working
very hard on this issue for quite some time now.
I want to assure this House and the Canadian public that we
totally agree with the auditor general's recommendation that the
integrity of the social insurance numbers and log must be
improved.
My department has already initiated discussions with the
provinces among others. We should be getting a great deal of
information. For instance, when a death occurs, we will now be
getting more information, through the partnership we are in
process of creating, which will make our system more effective.
* * *
[English]
APEC SUMMIT
Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, yesterday
the foreign affairs minister said “Canada is very concerned
about the use of the Internal Security Act to restrict the
freedom of speech and the freedom of assembly in Malaysia”. He
was talking about Malaysia.
Why did he not express those same sentiments of freedom of
speech and freedom of assembly when it came to APEC?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is, that is exactly what we
did during APEC.
This government provided substantial support to ensure that a
people's summit was held. The people's summit brought together
Canadians and people from around the world to discuss APEC, those
who were in favour and those who were against. The people's
summit had an opportunity to present its findings to ministers
and to the Prime Minister. It was the most open people's summit
ever held under APEC.
Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, a long,
long time ago, when the foreign affairs minister was a young man,
he believed in human rights and democracy. When he was a kid he
even marched in civil rights marches in Alabama. Back then there
was a bigoted sheriff. His name was Bull Connor. He sicced the
dogs on the protesters.
What happened? Why did this 1960s hippie turn into a 1990s
sheriff Bull Axworthy?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I have to admit that at heart I really am still a
hippie.
* * *
[Translation]
SCRAPIE
Ms. Hélène Alarie (Louis-Hébert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, with each
passing day, the sheep producers in Quebec become increasingly
distressed. They are losing money and hope. Each day's delay
brings a pile of worries.
1445
Does the minister intend finally to give them some help and what
does he plan to do for all those whose herds have been infected
with scrapie since January 1997?
[English]
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I continually inform the hon. member,
we are working with the unfortunate incident of the scrapie
disease in the sheep flock in the province of Quebec in as
equitable manner as we have in every other province. We are
compensating them in the same way as we would with reportable
diseases across Canada.
To date we have already compensated the affected producers to
the tune of over $2 million.
* * *
STEEL INDUSTRY
Mr. Carmen Provenzano (Sault Ste. Marie, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, my question is for the Minister for International Trade.
Is the minister aware that the Canadian steel industry is being
seriously threatened by unprecedented steel imports at dumping
prices from Japan, Korea, Russia and other foreign producers? If
so, what action is the minister prepared to take to protect this
important sector of our economy?
Hon. Sergio Marchi (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let me thank the hon. member for his
question as well as for his leadership vis-à-vis Algoma Steel in
Sault Ste. Marie.
I am certainly aware of the difficulties faced by our steel
producers given the excess capacity in the world market. I
recently met with the Canadian Steel Association, which is
working on joint proposals with other industries in the NAFTA
partners.
I assure the member and the House that the Canadian government
will continue to work with the association as well as with our
NAFTA partners to come up with the right remedies.
* * *
APEC SUMMIT
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, a
purely riveting statement from another Liberal. Even hippies at
heart should have the right to protest peacefully.
I would like to make a comment about this foreign affairs
minister who supposedly supports Canadian values of free speech
and democracy when he is travelling around the world, but at home
it is a very—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: The hon. member for Edmonton North.
Miss Deborah Grey: This foreign affairs minister talks
about free speech and democracy all around the world but just
does not happen to do it at home.
Why is it that he cannot practice at home what he preaches
abroad?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I take it that this is a question coming from the
resident biker of the House of Commons.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Perhaps we could leave our outside
activities out of the House of Commons.
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would be more
than happy to. I hope members will understand on this very
crucial question that during the APEC meetings the Government of
Canada went to great lengths first to hold a year long
consultation inviting Canadians from all walks of life to
participate in exactly what they thought the direction of APEC
should be.
Second, we supported a people's summit.
Third, we told all the leaders and their delegations that there
would be demonstrations and that we would establish the proper
sort of setting in which Canadians could express themselves.
Furthermore, we maintain that right of free speech not only
everywhere in the world but here in Canada.
1450
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the minister talks tough here on the floor of the House of
Commons but what we see on TV is quite a different picture than
that.
When the minister is visiting a foreign dictatorship he does not
talk about those except maybe privately he lets us know that. He
missed a chance to show dictators from around the world what real
democracy should look like.
Just what lesson did the minister hope these foreign dictators
would learn when he pepper sprayed peaceful protesters?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, frankly the premise of the hon. member's question is
absurd.
The whole question about what happened on the UBC campus is
under investigation by a commission. It will determine who is
responsible.
I want to make very clear to the hon. member, because I do not
think she understands, that during all these meetings we were
able to demonstrate very clearly that the openness of this
country was expressed at APEC. We raised issues that Canadians
asked us to raise.
To use a comment of a previous speaker, her question was a lot
of—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst.
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, when he was
Leader of the Opposition, the Prime Minister wrote “By lowering
premiums and increasing the penalties for those who voluntarily
leave their job, it is obvious that the government is not very
concerned about the victims of the economic crisis. Instead of
getting at the root of the problem, it targets the unemployed”.
Now the Minister of Finance has his eye on the surplus in the EI
fund. Will the Prime Minister keep the promise he made in the
spring of 1993 and come to the assistance of Canada's unemployed
workers?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
that is exactly what we have done. We have created 1.2 million
new jobs in Canada since being elected to office.
The rate of unemployment has dropped from 11.4% to 8.3%. The
Minister of Human Resources Development has implemented all
sorts of programs to help people adjust to the workplace and get
ready for new jobs.
That has been the focus of this government for the past five
years, and it continues to be our focus.
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, 60% of
unemployed workers do not qualify for EI because you have forced
them to go on welfare.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: My colleague, I must ask you to put your remarks
through the Chair.
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, as with the GST and pay equity, the
Prime Minister seems to have forgotten the promise he made to
unemployed Canadians.
To use the Prime Minister's own words, the government should
quit targeting the employed and get at the root of the problem.
The problem is that over 60% of unemployed workers in this
country do not qualify for benefits.
Will the government use the fund surplus to increase access to
EI, instead of forcing people to go on welfare?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
if the hon. member bothered to look at the facts, he would see
not only that the number of unemployed workers has dropped, but
also that the number of people on welfare has decreased in all
provinces of Canada since we formed the government.
The number of unemployed workers has dropped, as has the number
of people on welfare, because we had the right policies. We
know what the facts are, and the member will not alter reality
by choosing to ignore them.
* * *
[English]
APEC SUMMIT
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, last night the Prime Minister proved once and for
all that his government really is the home of the whopper when he
said that his government had never been involved in scandal in
the last five years.
We now know that all but one of the RCMP public complaints
commissioners were appointed by the Prime Minister. Why should
Canadians have any faith that the public complaints commissioner
will get to the bottom of the APEC peppergate scandal when this
is not arm's length or accountable?
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I think it is very inappropriate for a member of
parliament to say that anybody who wants to do public service for
their country to get to the truth in this matter can somehow not
be independent. I do not accept that premise and I do not think
Canadians accept it either.
1455
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, not even the Prime Minister's imaginary homeless
friend believes that the government is not involved in this APEC
matter. The mandate of the RCMP Public Complaints Commissioner
is not holding him back. He admitted as much yesterday in his
statement.
Will he commit to making a ministerial statement in the House to
convene a public inquiry if the commission confirms next week
that its mandate does not include the involvement of political
interference?
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the kind of interference the hon. member is suggesting
is exactly the kind of interference he is condemning.
* * *
[Translation]
SCRAPIE
Mr. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my question is
for the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food.
Since January 1997, nearly 12,000 sheep have been slaughtered
because of scrapie.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: The hon. member for Bourassa has the floor.
Mr. Denis Coderre: Mr. Speaker, on this side of the House we are
serious.
Since January 1997 in Quebec, nearly 12,000 sheep have been
slaughtered because of scrapie.
We are wondering about the way the food inspection agency
handled the matter, and especially how they treated the
producers.
What does the minister plan to do today to respond to the
legitimate demands of producers and to this problem, which has
gone on too long?
[English]
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we all know that this is a difficult
situation. As a result of the actions of everyone to date we are
making considerable headway and achieving success in the
eradication of this disease.
As I said a minute ago, the affected producers have already
received over $2 million in compensation. I have asked for a
review of the compensation levels. That is taking place.
Unfortunately the industry is not able to discuss that until
October 16, but this Friday I will be meeting with industry
representatives to discuss new and continuing measures in order
to help eradicate this disease and to assist the affected
producers.
* * *
FISHERIES
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
last week the minister of fisheries claimed success in
negotiating with foreign nations to have observers on foreign
fishing vessels while fishing off Canada's east coast. What he
did not tell us was that once again he gave our stocks away,
lucrative shrimp, to foreign nations by moving a boundary which
is under moratorium.
What does the minister have to say to Canadian shrimp fishermen
after giving their shrimp away to foreign nations while their
boats are left at home tied up at the docks?
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I welcome the hon. member back from
Paris, but he has lost sight of the problem of shrimp fishermen.
We have dramatically increased the quota for east coast
fishermen this year. In one of our major areas off the coast of
Newfoundland it has in fact doubled this year. The shrimp
species is in abundance and the east coast fishermen are enjoying
that abundance at this time.
* * *
[Translation]
CHILEAN REFUGEES
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration.
While the Government of Quebec is examining the cases of Chilean
refugees, the federal Minister of Immigration is sending them
back to their country before Quebec has even finished its
analysis.
Can the Minister show some compassion and humanity, and stay the
deportations of the Chilean refugees until Quebec has finished
looking at their files? Will she have a heart?
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (Minister of Citizenship and
Immigration, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I wish to inform the hon.
member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve that we are working on this
matter in close collaboration with the Government of Quebec. He
may not be aware of this, but I have not received any request
from the Government of Quebec to stay the deportations of
Chileans.
I believe that Canada is honouring its humanitarian traditions.
It has accepted applications from all these individuals. They
were entitled to an independent hearing by two board members,
who found that they were not refugees, and they had the
possibility of appealing to the Federal Court.
Now they have reached the stage of having to exit the country if
they wish to apply—
The Speaker: I am sorry but I must give the floor to the hon.
member for Winnipeg North Centre
* * *
[English]
PHARMACEUTICALS
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, the auditor general reported today that the board which
sets the prices Canadians pay for patented prescription drugs
relies essentially on information provided by the very drug
companies that sell those drugs without checking the facts and
without regard for the impact on consumers.
1500
When will the government begin pricing drugs in the interests of
Canadians instead of in the interests of international drug
conglomerates?
Will the Minister of Health specifically take steps to ensure
that drug pricing decisions are transparent and at least that
information from the drug companies is checked for accuracy?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I was happy to see that the auditor general himself observed that
the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board, has been, as he put
it, a constraining influence on the price of patented medicines
in Canada. That is a good thing.
As to recommendations for change, the member may know that the
board itself is in the middle of public discussions and
consultations about changes in its mandate and the way it does
business.
We will be happy to look at the auditor general's observations
as part of that. I will make sure that the board and its chair
take them carefully into account.
* * *
PRESENCE IN GALLERY
The Speaker: I would like to draw to hon. members'
attention the presence in the gallery of three distinguished
visitors.
First I would like to welcome to our House of Commons the hon.
Dr. Peter David Phillips, Minister of Transport and Works of
Jamaica.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
The Speaker: Colleagues, I would also like to welcome on
your behalf the Hon. Trevor Sudama, Minister of Planning and
Development for Trinidad and Tobago.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
The Speaker: Colleagues, I would like you to welcome to
our House of Commons His Excellency Rinchinnyamyn Amarjargal,
Minister of Foreign Affairs of Mongolia.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
The Speaker: Colleagues, we will now begin our tributes
to a former member of parliament, Mr. Gilles Rocheleau. I would
ask the first speaker to be the leader of the Bloc Quebecois.
* * *
[Translation]
THE LATE GILLES ROCHELEAU
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I met
Gilles Rocheleau in 1990. I had heard about him long before
that, however, because he had been active in politics for many
years.
1505
He was a municipal councillor in Hull from 1967 to 1974, mayor
of Hull from 1974 to 1981, an MLA and then a minister in the
Quebec government from 1981 to 1988. He served as a Liberal MP
in Ottawa from 1988 to 1990, and then as a member of the Bloc
Quebecois from 1990 to 1993.
One thing never changed. Gilles Rocheleau was a forthright man
who always said what he thought. An admittedly sometimes rough
exterior concealed a sensitive man who took a close interest in
those around him.
The Maison des Citoyens, of which he was rightly proud, was
built while he was mayor of Hull, and its agora today bears his
name.
Gilles was a man of discipline, who defended his point of view
with determination, but knew when to step back into line when
his views were not shared. And step back into line he did, but
not without good reason, for if his beliefs were questioned,
Gilles Rocheleau did not hesitate to set aside his personal
interests and take up the challenge. So it was that he joined
the Bloc Quebecois in 1990.
This is a path many Quebeckers have taken. Gilles Rocheleau was
therefore also, if not primarily, a fighter. Sovereignists were
happy to have him on their side, having seen what a strong
opponent he could be. The militant federalist Gilles Rocheleau
became a staunch sovereignist.
Gilles Rocheleau was also a man of some experience, having
worked in many arenas, but he always kept the respect of his
friends.
He was not afraid to speak his mind, to put it mildly. He would
not stand for duplicity and his tongue sometimes got away from
him, but never out of spite. He was not politically correct, but
he said what he was thinking, whether he was right or wrong.
I offer my condolences to his children, and to Hélène Roy, his
wife and partner, who is with us today. I know that all those
who knew him will never forget him, especially the people of
Hull. On their behalf, I thank him.
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and Minister
responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this year,
the people of Hull—Aylmer lost a man who had devoted his entire
public life to the service of his fellow citizens.
Gilles Rocheleau served the City of Hull for 14 years as
alderman and mayor. He then went on to represent his fellow
citizens in the Quebec National Assembly for seven years,
serving first of all under Claude Ryan and then as a minister
under Robert Bourassa.
Finally, in 1988, his fellow citizens elected him to this
Parliament to defend their interests on the federal scene.
Gilles, as he was fondly referred to by everyone in the
Outaouais, was a man with definite ideas and no hesitancy to
express them, but he will long be remembered by all, primarily
for his love and legendary devotion to his fellow residents of
west Quebec.
On behalf of the Government of Canada, I offer sincere
condolences to his wife and family.
1510
Mr. Rahim Jaffer (Edmonton—Strathcona, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I also
wish to pay tribute to Gilles Rocheleau, who died on June 27,
1998.
A native of Rigaud, Quebec, Gilles Rocheleau devoted his life to
serving the people of the Outaouais region. He was mayor of
Hull from 1974 to 1981, and was elected to the House of Commons
for the Outaouais region in 1988, where he sat until 1993.
He represented the riding of Hull—Aylmer in the Quebec National
Assembly, and was also appointed minister. He was a Liberal
member in Ottawa from 1988 to 1990. Then, until 1993, Mr.
Rocheleau sat with the Bloc Quebecois and contributed to that
party's advancement.
The efforts of Mr. Rocheleau were invaluable, and they did not
go unnoticed.
On behalf of the Reform Party, my most sincere sympathies to the
Rocheleau family.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of
my party, I would like to pay tribute to Gilles Rocheleau, who
was the member for the riding of Hull—Aylmer in the House of
Commons.
I knew him well, because we were both members at the same time.
I recall that he was a two career man. He was a business man
for many years and then he was in politics for 25 years.
If I am not mistaken, he was a provincial MLA in Quebec City and
mayor of the fine city of Hull. He then became a member of the
House of Commons for two parties: the Liberal Party and then
the Bloc Quebecois, of which he was a founding member, along
with Lucien Bouchard and others.
He was a good MP, and I think the Outaouais has lost a great
defender. He was widely known. For a number of years, when I
came to Ottawa, I lived in Aylmer. He was very popular, widely
known and a strong defender of Quebec.
On behalf of my party, I offer my condolences to his family and
friends.
Mr. André Harvey (Chicoutimi, PC): Mr. Speaker, I pleased to say
a few words about Mr. Rocheleau on behalf of the Progressive
Conservative Party. While I did not have the opportunity to
work within the same party with him, I can say he deserved our
full respect.
I am not going to review his career, because my colleagues
speaking before me have so. What struck me especially about him
was his involvement, at a very early age, in the social and
economic activities of his region.
At 27 or 28, he was I believe the chairman of the Association
des hommes d'affaires. This was an indication of his passion in
the defence of the interests of his region.
He then became involved at various levels of government, in
Quebec City, among other places, and then in Ottawa.
His involvement was marked by the effectiveness of his
interventions. People who had dealings with him when we were in
government found his work to always be constructive.
On behalf of the Progressive Conservative Party I extend my
condolences to his family and hope that Mr. Rocheleau will agree
to pass on to us from above some of his fine qualities. What
struck me most about him, obviously, was his huge
disappointment—it was existential—at the failure of the Meech
Lake accord. I think all Quebeckers working to bring about
national reconciliation at the time were struck by the decision
Mr. Rocheleau made. I think we could learn something from it for
future use.
The Speaker: We lost another of our number recently as well,
Paul Tardif. Tributes to him will now follow.
* * *
THE LATE PAUL TARDIF
Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Carleton—Gloucester, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
would like to pay tribute to Paul Tardif, who died on August 2
at Ottawa, at the age of 90.
When he was the federal member for Russell, that riding ran from
Ottawa to east of the present riding of
Glengarry—Prescott—Russell.
1515
Paul Tardif was elected four consecutive times to the House of
Commons, and sat from 1959 to 1968. In all, he devoted 31 years
of his life to politics, first as a school board member, then as
a City of Ottawa alderman and councillor, and finally as an MP.
He went on from there to become a citizenship court judge.
[English]
Mr. Tardif had a charming, colourful and gregarious personality.
He was a master of grassroots politics and a master communicator.
The media loved him. His constituents adored him. Those who
knew Mr. Paul Tardif were always proud to be associated with him.
[Translation]
Mr. Lee Morrison (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
am pleased to have this opportunity to honour the memory of Mr.
Paul Tardif, a former MP, who died on August 3, 1998.
Born and educated in Ottawa, Mr. Tardif devoted his life to
serving the people of his native city. In 1959,, he was elected
to the House of Commons for Russell in a byelection, and
returned in 1962, 1963 and 1965. He retired undefeated in 1968.
From 1968 to 1978, he was a citizenship court judge.
Before entering federal politics, Mr. Tardif sat on the school
board from 1937 to 1943, and served in the municipal government
as alderman, controller and finally deputy mayor.
Mr. Tardif was known for his lively wit, charm and
public-spiritedness. He clearly understood the saying that all
politics are local politics. An attentive listener, he could
always find time to talk with anyone, anywhere.
He was a true man of the people.
Mr. Tardif's efforts have been very much appreciated. On behalf
of the Reform Party, my deepest sympathies to his family.
Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased
today to pay tribute to Paul Tardif, a former member of this
House, who died in August at the age of 90.
He sat in this place from 1959 to 1968. Born in 1908, Mr.
Tardif was a Quebecker born and bred, his father hailing from
Kamouraska in the Lower St. Lawrence region.
Mr. Tardif always liked politics and worked hard to defend the
public's interests. At the tender age of 29, he was elected a
school board trustee, a position he held from 1937 to 1943. He
also served as alderman for Ottawa's Victoria ward from 1942 to
1948, in addition to holding the position of controller in that
city from 1949 to 1959.
It was during this period that Mr. Tardif frequently crossed
swords with the well-known Charlotte Whitton, former mayor of
Ottawa.
With his school board and municipal experience, he decided to go
into federal politics. He entered the House of Commons on
October 5, 1959, having won a by-election in Russell as a
Liberal.
He was re-elected in the general elections of 1962, 1963 and
1965. He therefore served in the government of the Right Hon.
Lester B. Pearson.
On June 22, 1967, he was appointed assistant deputy chairman of
the House of Commons Committees of the Whole, having
distinguished himself by his initiative, energy and integrity.
In 1968, he left federal politics and was made a citizenship
judge, a position he held until his retirement in 1978.
1520
Throughout his political career, Mr. Tardif was known as someone
who listened to what the public had to say and was very much in
touch with the grassroots. He was deeply attached to his
community.
On behalf of my colleagues in the Bloc Quebecois, I would like
to extend my deepest condolences to his friends and family.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Qu'Appelle, NDP): Madam Speaker, I also
want to pay tribute to Paul Tardif, a former member of this
House.
Mr. Tardif was not a member of Parliament in 1978, when I
was elected, because he did not run in that election, but I
clearly remember his good reputation as a member who represented
his riding well and he was well respected by everyone here.
He was first elected in a 1959 byelection and re-elected in 1962,
1963 and 1965, while John Diefenbaker was in power. If I am not
mistaken, he was deputy speaker of this House for a time.
On behalf of my party, I wish to extend my condolences to his
family and to his many friends.
[English]
Mr. Jim Jones (Markham, PC): Madam Speaker, on August 3
of this year Canada lost a fine example of excellence in
citizenship. Paul Tardif held office as a school board trustee
and an Ottawa city alderman before serving as a Liberal member of
this House for the riding of Russell.
Success in Russell was not to be ours during Paul Tardif's
watch. In light of the fact that he was known for his keen mind
and jovial wit, I know he would take it as high praise if I
referred to him as a thorn in the side of the Progressive
Conservative Party.
He was first elected in a 1959 byelection, just one year after
the Diefenbaker sweep. He followed that up with three successive
election wins, each with an overwhelming majority. The electoral
success he enjoyed is only possible when candidates are able to
transcend the process and compel people to vote with their
hearts. In the hearts of the people of Russell and Ottawa is
where Paul Tardif remains.
On behalf of the PC Party caucus I would like to extend our
thoughts and prayers to the family of a man who defined the term
public servant.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
DNA IDENTIFICATION ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-3, an
act respecting DNA identification and to make consequential
amendments to the Criminal Code and other acts, be read the third
time and passed; and of the amendment.
Mr. Rob Anders (Calgary West, Ref.): Madam Speaker, we
can hear the jackboots marching. A time allocation measure has
been brought in on Bill C-3 and there is absolutely no good
reason for it. Indeed, we did not have a situation where the
opposition was trying to run up as many members as possible to
speak to this bill. This was clearly a matter of the bill being
earnestly debated because we saw honest problems with it.
I will tell the House how many times the government has brought
in time allocation and I will point out how useless this last
measure was. In the 35th Parliament some sort of restriction was
brought in, either time allocation or closure, 35 times. In the
last Parliament there were 32 time allocation motions and three
closure motions, which brings the total to 35, which matches the
35th Parliament.
In the first year of the 36th Parliament there have been seven
time allocation motions. That means that this government has
brought in either time allocation or closure 42 times since it
took office in 1993. There have been 39 time allocation motions
and three closure motions. There was absolutely no good reason
for it. The government is shutting down honest debate.
When I hear the comments of people with regard to this bill I
think of my seatmate. He was a member of the RCMP who has said
that the police in this country should be able to effect these
tools immediately. He says that they should not have to have a
loophole or a restriction with regard to the use of some of this
technology.
1525
He brings forward a legitimate complaint, something that I know
he has brought forward in committee a number of times. I know
that his concerns are absolutely legitimate. I do not question
anything he has to say with regard to this because I know that
his interests are at the heart of the Canadian public.
The member for Langley—Abbotsford talked about the people in
his riding who are suffering as a result of the seven
penitentiaries that are within a half hour drive of his riding.
He talked about honest, legitimate concerns that he has.
What do people across the way talk about? They talk about what
the bar associations and the lawyers want.
The opposition is not running on and on about this. All we
wanted to ensure was that there was legitimate debate on this
bill. Everything I heard this morning brought forward by all
opposition parties were legitimate suggestions to improve this
legislation. It is a step in the right direction but it needs to
be better. The idea to bring in time allocation on something
like this is wrong.
Government members need to hear the questions that are important
when we consider things like time allocation, restricting debate,
or when we pass any piece of legislation.
What fruit will it bear? What fruit does it bear when there is
not a long list of people who want to run on with the debate,
when perfectly legitimate points are being made with regard to
Bill C-3 and the DNA data bank? What type of fruit does it bear
when they try to restrict debate? They bring forward closure.
They end debate. How does that serve the Canadian public? How
does that improve the legislation?
It is our job as the official opposition to question the
government and to try to improve legislation. Forty-two times
since the government was elected in 1993 it has brought in time
allocation and closure to restrict our freedom of speech, to
restrict our ability to constructively criticize government
legislation and to make it better.
It fits in with what it did at the APEC conference in Vancouver.
It likes to restrict freedom of speech. It is certainly doing it
to members of parliament and to the opposition in the House
today.
Who wants it? Who wants some of these things with regard to
time allocation? Who does it serve? Nobody but the government.
It is a public relations exercise to try to quell the debate on
an issue, to try to silence it.
In terms of Bill C-3, maybe it serves the bar associations or
the odd lawyer or two who happen to feel they are going to get
more money or more cases from this. It certainly does not help
the average citizen and the victims of crime. They do not want
it. The Canadian taxpayers do not want it.
Who will slip through the cracks as a result of some of these
things? That is another fundamental question. For example, the
people who have been assaulted once, if they have been assaulted
by somebody who has committed only one rape or one murder. Those
are the types of people who are going to suffer. There are a lot
of people out there who are included in that category of victims.
By improving the legislation we would be able to address those
things.
The government does not want to hear that. It wants to close
its ears and stifle the debate. Maybe it feels that it has done
its duty, that it has come through with this legislation. Even
though there are good and legitimate arguments that the
opposition is putting forward to make this legislation better, it
wants to ram it through and not take any of those things into
consideration.
The victims slip through the cracks. The police officers who
want the tools to do the job slip through the cracks. The
taxpayers who are being ill-served by this type of thing slip
through the cracks. The opposition falls through the cracks as
well because our ability to do our job is restricted by these
closure and time allocation motions. The press, whose job it is
to provide information to the Canadian public, slips through the
cracks. Nobody benefits but the government.
Will it solve the problem it intends to address? This
legislation is a move in the right direction, but we were trying
to make it better than it is. That is our job. All of us in the
House have an interest to try to improve the country and make it
a better place. Canada is number one in our hearts and concerns
and we were trying to make the legislation better than it is.
Time allocation and not accepting some of the amendments and
suggestions the opposition has made with regard to Bill C-3 does
not solve the problem that the legislation can be better.
Indeed it brushes it over and tries to rush it through.
1530
Are they attacking a strawman? The government always tosses in
a strawman. It says that the opposition, for example, is not
addressing real concerns. Real Canadians are victims of crime.
They toss a strawman or a red herring into the argument by saying
that there may be some potential problem with a constitutional
aspect or some sort of suggestion on behalf of a bar association
or a group of lawyers that do not happen to like something.
I can guarantee that in a large enough group of lawyers, as a
matter of fact two, there will be some disagreements on opinion
and if they have enough money to fund it they will continue with
the debate for as long as it takes for the money to run dry.
That alone, the whole idea of a red herring or a strawman, is
not enough to stifle debate on Bill C-3. I have heard very good
arguments on behalf of the opposition side of the House today for
why we need further debate and why improvements need to be
included in the legislation.
Forty-two times closure and time allocation have been used in
the House of Commons since the Liberals took power in 1993. It
is a shame that it has happened on something like Bill C-3
because there was absolutely no justification for it. The types
of arguments that are being put forward by the opposition were
merely to improve the legislation to make it a better piece of
work.
Mr. Gurbax Singh Malhi (Bramalea—Gore—Malton—Springdale,
Lib.): Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to rise to speak in
support of Bill C-3 which, when it comes into force, will permit
the creation of a national DNA data bank in Canada.
There has already been much public debate on the need for such
legislation. I believe there is consensus in the House and
across the country in support of the creation of a national DNA
data bank as proposed in Bill C-3.
Canadians know that in 1995 parliament enacted amendments to the
Criminal Code which introduced the DNA warrant scheme into our
criminal law. This legislation has been successfully used in the
three years since in the investigation of serious crimes such as
sexual assault and murder. Criminals who might otherwise have
gone undetected and unpunished have been brought to justice.
I do not intend to use my time today to add to the reasons we
should all agree that Canadian law enforcement should be provided
a tool which will allow it to take fuller advantage of forensic
DNA science. Rather my comments today will focus on one issue,
perhaps the most controversial issue dealt with in this important
legislation, the timing of the collection of bodily substances
for inclusion in the national DNA data bank.
It is no secret that the Canadian Police Association and the
Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police would have favoured a
scheme which permitted police to take DNA samples for the
purposes of the DNA data bank from suspects at the time of charge
rather than following conviction. This is what the government
proposes.
Both organizations have appeared before the Standing Committee
on Justice and Human Rights. Both are sincere in their views and
both believe that a DNA data bank would be more effective if it
was broader in scope. With respect, both have closed their eyes
to the constitutional dangers of what they proposed.
1535
While the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police has taken the
high road on this issue, the Canadian Police Association has
persisted in a questionable campaign against Bill C-3. The CPA
claims that if the bill is not amended in keeping with its wishes
it will only be a matter of time before the government will be
blamed for a murder or a rape or a child sex scandal.
In a letter recently written to all members of parliament the
CPA had the nerve to criticize the independent legal opinions
concerning this issue which were obtained by the government
simply because they were obtained by the government. Or, was it
simply because they support the legal advice provided to the
standing committee by the justice department experts when they
appeared before it and that of their counterparts from the
ministry of the attorney general of Ontario and the department of
justice of New Brunswick? Or, was it because they cannot bear
that the legal opinions completely discredit the ones obtained by
the association?
The CPA seems to suggest that the government's outside legal
opinions are less independent than the one obtained by the CPA.
Is it suggesting some indirect pressure was brought to bear on
the legal minds that provided the government with their opinions?
On Friday, May 1, 1998, the Department of Justice released the
legal opinions of three of the most respected legal minds in
Canada, three former court of appeal justices, regarding the
issue of when DNA samples can be collected for the purposes of
the national DNA data bank.
Former Justice Martin Taylor of the British Columbia Court of
Appeal and former Chief Justices Charles Dubin of the Ontario
Court of Appeal and Claude Bisson of the Quebec Court of Appeal
each concluded independently that the proposal to permit the
police to take DNA samples from persons at the time of charge for
the purposes of the national DNA data bank would not survive
charter scrutiny.
The CPA has chosen to close its eyes and ears to the advice of
legal experts. It continues to urge changes to the bill which
would clearly be unconstitutional. It ignores the clear signs
which exist for all to see. It is as though it has embarked on a
high speed chase on black ice in a school zone and ignored the
signs that warn of a school crossing ahead as it hurtled
carelessly forward.
The government cannot act dangerously. It has the duty to
anticipate the results of the legislation it presents to
parliament and to consider that if the legislation is found
unconstitutional the results in terms of justice will be tragic.
Let us consider, for example, that any evidence resulting from a
match of DNA profiles in the national DNA data bank would likely
be thrown out in a criminal case. As well, persons convicted on
the basis of such evidence could ask to have their convictions
overturned and they might seek compensation for having been
wrongly convicted.
It is clear that the DNA profiles of these persons would have to
be removed from the data bank. Canadians would be shocked by
such a disaster, especially when it could have been avoided.
1540
I will close my remarks by saying that Bill C-3 promises the
proper blueprint for a national DNA data bank in Canada, one
which is respectful of constitutional requirements and effective.
The views of the police in this matter are self-evident. Members
of the House must carefully weigh, in deciding how they will vote
on the legislation, the likelihood of the government's proposal
surviving an obvious constitutional challenge as opposed to the
chances of the police scheme meeting the existing constitutional
requirements.
Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley,
Ref.): Madam Speaker, I would like to take the opportunity to
speak about two aspects of what has happened this afternoon and
to Bill C-3.
First I will speak about time allocation which the government
has used once again. I cannot believe the government would
continue a practice that it started in the last parliament. There
were 32 time allocations in the 35th parliament, and government
members have already done it seven times in this parliament.
It is abhorrent to me and to Canadians that we have a government
that is afraid of free speech, afraid of the opportunity for
elected parliamentarians to come into the House to debate issues
that are important to Canadians. Canadians deserve their elected
officials having the opportunity to debate these issues, to
debate government legislation, to make sure that the end product
is the best that it can be for Canadians. If the government
cannot stand criticism and is afraid of being honest and open
with Canadians then government members have no business sitting
there.
Bill C-3 establishes a DNA data bank. I do not think Canadians
have any problem with establishing a DNA data bank. However, I
think Canadians including the people in my riding have a problem
with a data bank only collecting DNA samples from people who have
been convicted. After the fact will not help the police solve
the crime. I know people in my constituency would like the
police to have everything at their disposal, everything that is
available to them by way of modern technology, to find some
conclusive evidence to convict people and bring them to court.
The bill falls far short of providing our law enforcement people
with the facilities and the analysis they need to bring some of
these cases to conclusion. It is hard on families who know that
only for DNA samples a suspect may be wandering the streets.
I suggest to the government that DNA is no different from
fingerprinting. In the past when the government of the day
wanted to institute fingerprinting as a normal investigative tool
I am sure there was an outcry that it was an infringement on a
person's right to have their fingerprints taken. I am sure a
similar debate went on at that time and that it was considered to
be the most intrusive measure on an individual's person.
I also suggest that it is now a matter of course, a matter of
fact. It is just a natural thing that happens: suspects are
charged, fingerprinted and become part of the collective
knowledge of our system. We are overreacting to the business of
DNA being intrusive. It is not intrusive to take a fingernail
clipping. It is not intrusive to prick a finger to get a drop of
blood. I mean, come on.
1545
We are not talking about a hospital stay overnight. We are not
talking about cutting a finger open. That is not what we are
talking about. It is very simple and easy to get the required
sample.
I would suggest that the day will come. Perhaps this government
will not be the vehicle that will institute it but the day will
come when DNA sampling is banked, when it is part of the normal
course of investigation once a charge is laid.
Why are we wasting time? Why are we reluctant to take that
step? Is it because it may be challenged in the supreme court?
So what? Is the government not going to make legislation on
behalf of the Canadian public, legislation that is good and
beneficial for the future of this country because it is afraid it
might end up in the supreme court? The role of this House, the
role of the legislators who sit here is to make the law. If we
are not going to make the law because we are afraid of the
courts, then there is something serious here that we had better
address.
If we have a government that is going to refuse to address the
issues of the day and be aggressive and forthcoming in solving
the problems we face in this country because of fear, then it
does not deserve to be here. The government does not deserve to
take this country into the 21st century if it is living in the
19th century.
Canadians are looking for a government that has guts, that has
some fortitude to challenge things that are wrong in the Canadian
system and to do things in a progressive manner, to move into the
21st century and provide our police with a tool that is available
from technological advancement. Are we going to be driving
horses and buggies, walking around, taking trains rather than
flying and going to the moon? Technological advancements such as
DNA offer us opportunities. We are remiss if we do not take
advantage of them.
People in law enforcement should have this tool available for
their use in investigating crime and in laying charges, not just
for use i after a person has been convicted. It is a little bit
late to wait for that.
I hope the government will consider the arguments. It would be
unusual for the Liberals to do so. They have invoked closure so
they are obviously not willing to listen to the other side, not
willing to listen to a debate and not willing to listen to logic.
They have made up their minds. They really do not care what
Canadians think. It is typical of the arrogant attitude of the
government.
I hope that members on the government side will stop, look at
the legislation, realize that it is a missed opportunity, that
there is something there, that the timing is such that we can
move on and will change their minds and make some adjustments to
the bill. It has never happened before to my knowledge. I do
not expect this government to be any different from the previous
government. It would be nice if Canadians could feel that open,
honest debate occurred in this House and that the government
really took into account the comments, the positive and creative
criticism from the opposition, and would make some attempt to
improve legislation.
This is a good idea but it needs to be broadened and expanded. I
am remiss in saying that I doubt there will be anyone in the
official opposition who will be supporting it, simply because we
feel it is not good enough to support. It is bad legislation. We
do not get anywhere by supporting something that is not going to
meet the needs of the law enforcement community.
If we support this bill and if it is enacted, which it probably
will be anyway, then the government will put it aside and leave
it alone. It will miss the opportunity of doing something very
constructive in allowing our law enforcement people to have
another tool to help them in protecting Canadians on a day to day
basis.
1550
I think it is negligent on the part of the government to
continue this kind of posturing, the attitude that it knows best,
that what it decides is good for all Canadians. It is not
willing to listen to any kind of critique.
Again, I would urge the government to reconsider, to look at
improving this legislation. Make it a piece of legislation that
will actually do some good for the Canadian public. It may be a
cold day before I see that but I hope this government is
listening.
Mr. Lou Sekora (Port Moody—Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam,
Lib.): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to address the House today
on third reading of Bill C-3, which provides for the
establishment of Canada's national DNA data bank.
Bill C-3 will make Canada one of only a handful of countries in
the world to have a national system of this kind. It is
important to recognize that this is ground breaking legislation
and a major milestone of the government's safer communities
agenda.
Public safety is a priority of this government. To that end,
Bill C-3 is an important part of our commitment to Canadians. We
know that Canadians want a data bank for better public
protection.
The intention of this legislation is to create an effective law
enforcement tool, one that stands the test of time. We must be
careful in creating this data bank so that it is a tool that
balances public safety needs with the privacy rights which are
highly valued by Canadians.
The government has heeded the call from those on the front lines
who have told us that this new law must help them to do their
jobs. We have taken the advice of those who have told us that it
must not infringe upon basic rights under the charter. We have
listened to those who have told us that we must get on with the
business of putting this valuable enforcement tool in place. I
believe that we have found the right balance in Bill C-3.
Since the bill was introduced last year, members of this House
have proceeded cautiously in their consideration of this proposed
legislation. The government has welcomed this debate. Given the
scope of the issues surrounding the potential misuse of DNA
profiles and samples as well as the legal and ethics concerns, it
is vital that a bill of this nature be debated thoroughly, taking
all views into account.
This is the very reason why Bill C-3 was referred to the
all-party Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights before
it proceeded to second reading. The solicitor general did so at
the time of introduction because he had the very expectation that
we would come out of this exercise with a better bill. He
expected that amendments would be made to improve it and in fact
encouraged the committee to focus on making the bill better. In
my view, this is exactly what has been achieved.
The committee examined this bill thoroughly. The policing
community, those on the front lines included, provided their
views. This government listened to those views and we acted on
them.
Last week we heard from critics in this House who asked the very
same questions that were brought and debated before the
committee. We have heard those same concerns time and time
again. We have addressed them in the amended bill before us
today.
We must not lose sight of the benefits of Bill C-3 and of the
value it will bring as one of the most powerful investigative
police tools to date. To do that, we need only to reflect on the
development of Bill C-3 from the time it was introduced one year
ago.
From there we can easily see how it has been improved as a
result of extensive consultations at every stage along the way.
Perhaps more important, it becomes apparent why this bill
provides that bodily samples be taken for DNA testing at the time
of conviction and not at the time of arrest or charge.
1555
The introduction of the DNA identification act marks the second
phase of the government's DNA strategy. The government
recognized early in the process that the first important step
involved laying out the requirements for when DNA samples could
be obtained in order to be used in criminal investigations.
As a result in 1995 amendments to the Criminal Code allowed
police to obtain DNA samples from suspects by using a warrant.
That first step provided the police with an extremely effective
tool that has helped them solve many serious crimes.
It has been effective because it has been used to help eliminate
suspects and secure convictions. It has been effective because
it has been instrumental in obtaining guilty pleas therefore
sparing victims the trauma of testifying. It has been effective
because it has helped to reduce overall court costs. It has also
withstood constitutional challenges.
With the DNA warrant legislation now firmly in place in Canadian
law and in the police investigation process, the government is
now in the midst of the next phase of its DNA initiative. We are
now creating the framework for storing DNA samples and for using
that information in the investigation of serious crimes.
A national DNA data bank will be an important tool to help
police link a suspect with evidence left at a crime scene. The
ability to store and later retrieve DNA profiles will shorten
investigations and help prevent further violence by repeat
offenders. This means better public safety for all Canadians.
Bill C-3 will authorize police to collect DNA samples from
offenders convicted of designated criminal offences. These
include the most serious personal injury crimes such as homicide
and sexual offences. They are crimes that are most likely to be
associated with DNA evidence found at the crime scene.
Samples will be analysed with the resulting profile entered into
the convicted offenders index of the data bank. The data bank
will also have a crime scene index containing DNA information
retrieved from crime scenes. The purpose of having this
structure is to ensure that the DNA profiles in each index can be
cross referenced and a match in the system can be identified.
The benefits of using the system like the one we have laid out
in Bill C-3 are very clear. Stored DNA information will help the
police more quickly identify suspects where they may otherwise
not have had any leads. It will allow them to identify repeat
offenders no matter what police jurisdiction they are in. It will
also have a deterrent effect as criminals will know that because
their DNA profiles are already in the data bank they can no
longer slip through the cracks.
Throughout the development of Bill C-3 the federal government
has sought the advice and expertise of many groups and
individuals. I want to make the point that those on the front
lines have been consulted from the very beginning and throughout
the process.
In addition the standing committee held 15 hearings on the bill
and heard from representatives of 17 different organizations.
Those 17 organizations, which included police, victims, and
officials in our legal communities, represented thousands upon
thousands of Canadians.
While it is true that one of the critics of this bill, the
Canadian Police Association, may represent 35,000 front line
police officers, we have heard from even more who support this
bill wholeheartedly.
We have considered all views represented in our country. Our
consultations revealed strong support for the creation of a
national data bank.
There were also a number of concerns about fundamental values
that make Canada unique and are reflected in the rights
guaranteed to all Canadians by our charter. These include
individual rights to privacy and equality under the law, as well
as public protection. To respond to those concerns and to improve
the strength of the bill, a number of amendments were made since
the legislation was first introduced.
1600
I would like to share some of those concerns and changes.
Various interest groups, including the privacy commissioner, the
Barreau du Québec and the National Action Committee on the Status
of Women, have suggested that the bill did not contain sufficient
safeguards.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): It is my duty,
pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the
questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as
follows: the hon. member for Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre,
Railways; the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst, Employment
Insurance; the hon. member for Davenport, Environment.
Mr. Darrel Stinson (Okanagan—Shuswap, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, I rise today to speak to Bill C-3 with mixed emotions.
I say that because this bill does not go far enough in addressing
the concerns of the law-abiding citizens of this country.
Since I was elected to this House in 1993 I have listened to
hon. members on the other side of the House who have stood here
time after time to proclaim how concerned they are about the
judicial system in this country, how concerned they are about the
victims of crime in this country, how they are going to work
toward stopping crime in this country. Since 1993, I am sorry to
say, I have seen them do absolutely nothing with regard to this.
They have come up with Bill C-3, respecting DNA. We all agree
that DNA sampling is good. It has to come into play. There is
no argument. But when we go through the bill and we see again
our caring, sharing Liberal government on that side decide that
the rights of criminals far outweigh the rights of victims, I
have to wonder exactly what it is doing and how it keeps getting
away with this.
I have said time and time again that the first priority of any
government has to be the protection of its law-abiding citizens.
I will say it again in this House. This government has no
intention of supplying that. To me this bill shows it.
In this bill there is the authority to deny the taking of DNA
samples from any individual if it is believed that by doing so it
will impact the individual's privacy and security. This is
somebody who has been picked up with regard to a crime. The
government says they do not have to take this. The government
says it infringes upon their constitutional right. Never mind
the rights of the victims, it infringes upon this individual's
rights.
If I am picked up, accused of committing a crime, and I know I
am innocent, I will be the first one there to roll up my sleeve.
I will let them take the hair. I will let them take
fingerprints. In fact they can take fingerprints today. Is that
not an infringement? They take breathalyser tests for drunk
drivers. Is that not an infringement? They take blood samples
today. Is that not an infringement?
I have to shake my head at the stupidity of what is going on
here. The Liberals does not seem to understand.
They forget the many victims who have come into this House, the
many victims who have been to their offices and talked to them.
1605
I want to speak of the concerns of the rape victims in this
country who have had to sit and wait. They can sit and smile
over there, but they know it is true. The victims have been to
their offices to beg and plead for something to happen with
regard to this DNA bill so they can go on with their lives. They
want to know whether they have been infected with a disease or if
there will be an impact on their families. They do not want to
wait 12 months for the results. That is what this bill does not
allow. This is the sharing, caring government of this country?
It is a shame.
We have information from the police associations that this bill
does not go far enough. It is a joke. The government gets
support, the screaming and the hollering from the criminal
lawyers, and it decides that maybe it can pick that up and run
with it. It tries to offset this because it might be against
somebody's constitutional rights.
The Liberals stand day after day to say that Canada has been
voted as the best country in the world in which to live. By
being here today the Liberals are pulling off a sick, sad joke on
the law-abiding citizens of this country. We have seen it time
after time.
We live in a democracy, a great democracy. The Liberals like to
tell us about this great wondrous democracy called Canada. In
this House of Commons, to which we have been sent, duly elected
by people in our constituencies to represent them, we have today
a thing called closure in regard to this bill. It is by the same
bunch that sat over here and said they would never do what the
Conservatives did when in power. That same bunch has moved time
allocation and closure in this House more times than any previous
government in the history of Canada. Some democracy. That is
some way to look after the law-abiding taxpaying citizens of this
country. They are the people who pay the government's wages and
it shuts the door.
The Liberals will stand and say they do not understand how we
could not vote in favour of this bill, that there is a little
section in the bill that is good. There is a little section that
is good, that can be covered in four words, while the remaining
36 pages are total garbage.
They want us to accept this. They would love us to stand here
and sell out our principles for those three little words that are
good in this bill. I absolutely refuse to do that. It is a
shame that they play politics this way. Maybe it is time it
changed. I think in the next election it will change because
people are sick and tired of things like this coming down the
tube.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Darrel Stinson: They can laugh all they want over
there, but the time is coming. Even some of them have not agreed
with this. They will go along with it because they are whipped
into shape to do it. It is unbelievable.
We have a multitude of unsolved crimes in this country. We
spend hundreds of millions every year trying to solve these
crimes. Yet with DNA sampling, most of these crimes could be
solved at a minimal expense and it would clear up a whole
backlog. It would clear up our courts. It would clear up a
multitude of sins that have been committed in this country. But
not for this government. It would not like to see that.
Again I have to come back to whether the government's first
concern is for the criminal lawyer or whether it is for the
law-abiding citizens of this country. I do not think I have to
ask too many people on this side of the House who it is for. They
do not leave too much doubt over here. I would sincerely like
the people from the other side of the House to sit down with some
of these victims when they come to them.
Ms. Shaughnessy Cohen: Been there, done that.
Mr. Darrel Stinson: Yes. Been there, done that. Have
you? You have not listened one little bit though, have you?
1610
Ms. Shaughnessy Cohen: I read more than you do.
Mr. Darrel Stinson: There is absolutely no concern at
all. I cannot believe it. Yet we will hear the same thing from
the justice minister tomorrow about how caring she is. Although
we never know over there, do we?
I just have to say that this is a disgrace.
Ms. Shaughnessy Cohen (Windsor—St. Clair, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, the self-righteous prattle is certainly coming hard and
strong from the other side. I wonder if the last speaker and the
other speakers from the Reform Party on this debate today have
ever heard of the Constitution or the charter of rights and
freedoms because there is a balance that has to be struck here.
We have struck this balance before. Recently we struck a
balance with Bill C-68, which was upheld today by the Alberta
Court of Appeal, in spite of Reformers telling us last week, loud
and strong, that they thought it was going to fail.
This government respects the constitutional balance that has
been created in this country between parliament and the courts,
and it respects the fact that the charter of rights and freedoms
exists to protect all Canadians, including Canadians who are
accused of crimes but who have not yet been proven guilty.
This balance is seen in Bill C-3. While the debate on Bill C-3
has interested me, I must say it is about time that we see an end
to it. It is time to bring this debate to close. It is time
that we move to make this bill law. We know that Bill C-3 will
place Canada at the forefront in the use of DNA technology in
criminal investigations in the world.
Canada will become one of only a handful of countries to have a
DNA data bank. We know that once that bank is in place it is
going to be a major milestone in policing technology and
investigative procedures.
Public safety is a priority for this government, but public
safety and privacy rights have to be balanced, understood and
seen to be in sync with one another. To that end, Bill C-3 is an
important part of our commitment to Canadians. It is a major
achievement, a significant part of our government's safer
communities agenda, and safer communities, after all, are what
all Canadians want.
Canadians want the police to be able to use a tool like the DNA
data bank to help ensure that safe communities stay that way.
However, Canadians do not want to give police powers that violate
their rights to privacy and their rights pursuant to our
Constitution.
The intention of this legislation is to create an effective law
enforcement tool, a tool that will stand the test of time. I
believe that Bill C-3, as written today, will do just that. I
also believe that legislation of this kind needed to be developed
very carefully and was developed very carefully. It was also
studied very carefully in the justice committee last term.
It is my view that Bill C-3 balances the needs of Canadians who
want public safety as their top priority with the need to take
into consideration the privacy rights that Canadians value.
Criminal penalties have been included as a safeguard for any
misuse or abuse of this data information bank and I do not think
the Reform Party is objecting to that. However, in addition to
that, the bill was drafted in accordance with Canada's
Constitution. It has been drafted to ensure that the rights of
all Canadians will not be infringed. It upholds one of the
primary considerations in our legal system, one which I think the
rhetoric today has left behind, and that is that an accused has
the right to be presumed innocent and to be protected from
unreasonable search and seizure.
Bill C-3 reflects the views of the highest court in the land
which has said that the taking of DNA samples constitutes a
search and seizure that requires judicial authorization. We see
this in the most straightforward searches that police now conduct
of homes or offices. Even for those, police must first get a
warrant to search.
When asked for a bodily sample to be taken from an individual
person, the importance of the court's authorization cannot be
understated. A search of a person's bodily substances needs to
be taken more seriously than the search of a home or an office
because it involves bodily integrity and it undermines human
dignity.
1615
The supreme court has made that clear. Therefore, taking a DNA
sample from a person for investigative purposes clearly demands a
high standard of justification.
DNA samples taken from every suspect without a warrant, as the
opposition would suggest, no matter how minor the offence not
only would waste valuable law enforcement time and resources, but
also would not meet the standards that have been clarified by our
courts. We cannot forget the fact that police can already take a
DNA sample from a person at the time of arrest or charge so long
as they obtain a warrant to do so. Reform does not raise this
because it does not fit its assault on the government.
The fact of the matter is that that DNA warrant legislation came
in in the last parliament. It has been used very successfully in
a wide range of cases. Warrants have been given upon the right
grounds being ready.
The Criminal Code already provides a way of allowing police to
obtain a DNA sample from a person they suspect of having
committed a very serious offence, by using a DNA warrant. This
provision is consistent with the charter, giving the police the
assurance that their case will not later be thrown out of court.
It gives individuals the assurance that indeed it is taken very
seriously by police when they are about to invade someone's
privacy.
Our colleagues are obviously overlooking the fact that DNA
warrant legislation has been in place for three years. They are
ignoring the fact that the Supreme Court of Canada has commended
that legislation.
DNA warrants are well used by police. They have been helping
investigations tremendously. They have been used to eliminate
suspects and secure convictions. They have been instrumental in
obtaining guilty pleas, thereby sparing victims the trauma of
testifying. They have been cost effective because they have
helped to reduce overall court costs.
The DNA warrant legislation has also survived all constitutional
challenges to date. It has survived those challenges because the
legislation provides that judicial authorization be obtained for
the collection of DNA samples.
There is no doubt that over the past few years we have made
enormous progress in our efforts to contribute to a safe, just
and peaceful society. The addition of forensic DNA analysis and
the ability to store DNA profiles will help us target those who
commit the most serious of crimes and hold them accountable.
Canadians can continue to enjoy the safety of their streets and
have a sense of security knowing that police forces across the
country have access to some of the most sophisticated tools
worldwide, but have restraints on their actions so that they
cannot violate the privacy of individuals.
I urge all members of the House to support Bill C-3 so that we
can proceed to create Canada's first national DNA data bank.
Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, it is a pleasure today to speak on Bill C-3.
After listening to my hon. colleague's comments, we certainly
understand her concerns and the concerns of others from the
government and those civil libertarians who suggest that the
taking of DNA is somehow a gross infringement on people's rights
and has to be taken in a very narrow definition. This is what
Bill C-3 does. That is the part we actually oppose. We believe
that the taking of DNA samples as defined in this bill is too
restrictive.
Let us look at the larger public good. That is what we are
talking about and where a great deal of disagreement concerning
this bill exists between our party and the government. The
government feels that the taking of DNA should be restricted to
very narrow circumstances, such as multiple murderers and people
who have committed sexual offences. In these cases DNA samples
can only be extracted after the conviction has taken place. This
does not help the police. It does not help the victims groups.
We suggest that DNA samples be taken beforehand. Why? It serves
two purposes. Number one is very important in that it helps to
exonerate the innocent. We have not heard much about this from
the other side. It is a double edged sword. One would argue
from the other side that this is restricting people's personal
freedoms. We would argue that there is a larger public good
here.
The larger public good refers to the protection of innocent
people and the conviction of the guilty. The only thing Bill C-3
does in its current form is it helps to convict those individuals
who have committed the most heinous of crimes.
1620
The way the bill is configured, it can act as a shield behind
which the guilty can hide themselves. It does little to protect
the innocent. If we were more aggressive with this bill, if we
were able to take DNA samples from people before they were
convicted, then those DNA samples could be used to exonerate the
innocent and convict the guilty. That is what we are trying to do
here.
We in this party are trying to put faith back into the justice
system. When we speak to Canadians, they have lost a lot of
faith. It is not that they have lost faith in the Canadian
police departments and the RCMP. They have a lot of faith in the
men and women who put their lives on the line every day to
protect us and keep us safe. It is in the process and the
management of our justice system and the implementation of the
laws of this land that the Canadian people are having less faith
in all the time.
Bill C-3 could be a strong bill. Members from my party have put
forth constructive suggestions, such as that the DNA be taken
right from the word go, right from when a person is picked up and
is suspected of having committed a crime, and that the breadth
upon which the different types of offences that this can be
applied to be extended beyond multiple murderers and multiple sex
offenders.
Had we had this bill a few years ago and had it been
appropriately applied, Clifford Olson would not have been able to
kill the number of people he killed. He committed 80-odd
offences before he even murdered one person. If this bill had
been in place in the manner in which we would like, Clifford
Olson would have been behind bars and a lot of people's lives
would have been saved. A lot of families would not be enduring
the pain and suffering that they endure to this day.
This bill needs a number of other amendments. The data bank
that exists today is far too limited. The data bank should be
formed in such a way that the information is kept a long time
after the person is convicted. That does not exist in Bill C-3.
The information, if utilized, would enable the police to pick up
somebody very quickly if their bodily fluids were found at the
site of a crime, in which case again we would be preventing
further crimes from occurring. The government somehow fails to
see this. Although we understand its concerns in dealing with
civil liberties, we would argue that a higher good and the
greater good is the protection of innocent civilians, including
those who are falsely picked up for a crime they never committed.
There is a positive side to this bill in that it can be used to
protect and also release the innocent. We would not get cases
such as the Guy-Paul Morin case, which has been such a tragedy
for him and the Morin family.
A lot of other aspects with respect to Bill C-3 can be dealt
with here. I would ask that the government listen to the police
departments who would like to see the DNA data bank go forth, as
we would, but in a much stronger and effective fashion.
The government needs to pursue the issue of crime prevention.
The Minister of Justice to her credit recently implemented a
crime prevention strategy dealing with kids from zero to six, I
believe, in Edmonton. This is a head start program. I would
strongly urge the government to implement our motion that was
passed in May of this year calling for a national head start
program.
One of the great things that one can do, and the cabinet
ministers can certainly take advantage of this in their position,
is to take the leadership role that is desperately needed.
Although the rights and responsibilities of various areas are
divided up and parcelled off among three levels of government,
the federal government has the unique opportunity to call
together its provincial counterparts in a number of areas, put
their minds together and come to the table to develop a
comprehensive plan which people across the country would benefit
from.
One of those areas is in the justice area and is associated with
Bill C-3. It is the national head start program. The Minister
of Justice along with the Ministers of Health and HRD, can take a
leadership role. They can call together their provincial
counterparts here in Ottawa or anywhere in this country and look
at what is already on the table with respect to early detection
and crime prevention strategies. Keep what is good, throw out
what is bad, use existing resources and deal with crime
prevention.
1625
This should not be done when a person is 13, 14 or 15 years of
age when they may be suffering from conduct disorders, have run
afoul of the law, have endured years of sexual abuse, violence or
perhaps have been subjected to alcohol while in utero with
resulting fetal alcohol effects. It should be done before that.
In order to have an effective crime prevention strategy, it has
to start in the first eight years of life. We know
scientifically that in the first eight years of life the building
blocks of a normal psyche are developed. Events such as being
exposed to sexual abuse, violence at home or improper nutrition
damage the building blocks of a normal psyche and at adolescence
it is very difficult for that child to engage appropriately with
the environment. Unfortunately many run afoul of the law.
Programs such as the Moncton head start program, in which the
member for Moncton has taken such a leadership role, the programs
in Hawaii and the Perry Preschool Program in Michigan have
clearly demonstrated that early intervention programs can be
highly cost effective. On balance these programs save about
$30,000 per child. They lower dependence on welfare and keep
kids in school longer. They have lowered teen pregnancy rates.
They can have a dramatic effect at lowering child abuse. The
program in Hawaii reduced child abuse by 99% in a cost effective
fashion.
With the fragmented nature of social programs in the country,
the federal government has an enormous opportunity to work with
its provincial counterparts to implement a provincially managed
but shared funded national head start program. One message apart
from what we have spoken about in Bill C-3 would be to implement
the program using existing resources.
The government could do what was done in Hawaii. It could use
trained volunteers and the medical community starting before a
woman becomes pregnant. Trained volunteers could be used for the
child at birth up to age four and the schools could be used when
the child is between the ages of four and eight.
If the government did that we would have a dramatic positive
effect in decreasing youth crime and in improving the social
welfare for the most underprivileged in the country. It would
save the taxpayer billions of dollars and provide a more secure
and safe environment for all Canadians.
Mr. Paul Bonwick (Simcoe—Grey, Lib.): Madam Speaker, in
the last 10 days I think I have heard it all.
I truly wonder if there is no depth to the rhetoric, the
repetitive redundancy of the Reform Party members. They told us
on the one hand last week that it is not okay to ask people to
register deadly firearms. Today they tell us it is okay to take
bodily fluids from a potentially innocent person. This is from
one end of the spectrum to the other. I am absolutely amazed.
They cite time and time again examples from the U.S. I cannot be
any clearer on this. This is not the United States. It is
Canada. We do things differently here.
Today I am extremely proud to stand up and show my support for
Bill C-3. This is a good bill. As we have heard in the House
time and time again, DNA analysis cannot be compared to a
fingerprint which involves only a minor intrusion on privacy or
the removal of bodily fluid. An argument that equates
fingerprints with DNA is simply a flawed argument. Fingerprints
only reveal an impression of a person's extremities and allow
that person's identity to be confirmed.
DNA samples reveal far more. A DNA sample is a part of a person
and it contains that person's genetic blueprint. Because of that
important distinction, Bill C-3 ensures that DNA information is
safeguarded and used only for the purposes of forensic DNA
analysis. In doing so it sets out very limited and controlled
access to the data bank. It prohibits any improper use of
information and limits access to only those directly involved in
operation and maintenance.
1630
The opposition in the House seems to think the police have
automatic rights to search and seizure. That has never been the
case in Canada because Canadians place a high priority on a
reasonable expectation of privacy, on security and dignity of the
person, and on the right to be free from unnecessary state
interference in those rights. Taking samples automatically when
a suspect is charged would be constitutionally indefensible.
Not only has the government taken the advice of those who have
said that the legislation to create a national DNA data bank must
not infringe upon our charter of rights. We have also listened
to those who have said that it is important that this legislation
be put in place as soon as possible.
The bill has seen introduction and reintroduction. It has been
the subject of thorough review by the Standing Committee on
Justice and Human Rights, yet I hear my Reform colleagues talk
about closure and time allocation. They talk about limiting
their right to offer constructive criticism to the bill, yet they
spend 70% of their speeches talking about time allocation rather
than actually talking about Bill C-3. If they have something
positive to add, why do they not add it?
The bill has been reviewed by some of Canada's most respected
judges. The opposition seems to be dismissing the validity of
the intense scrutiny under which Bill C-3 has been developed. We
cannot lose sight of the fact of the benefits of Bill C-3 and the
value it will bring as one of the most powerful investigative
police tools known to date.
The Liberal government and the police community have the same
objective: to provide Canadian law enforcement officials with
practical and effective access to DNA technology to solve crimes
and to protect the public.
A national DNA bank will be an important tool to help police
link a suspect with evidence left at a crime scene. The ability
to store and later retrieve DNA profiles will shorten
investigations and help prevent further violence by repeat
offenders. This means better public safety for Canadians,
something that quite obviously Reform is prepared to compromise.
The DNA data bank will let police quickly identify suspects
where they have been unable to do so in the past. They will be
able to match profiles in the system to find repeat offenders no
matter what jurisdiction they are in. Other suspects could be
eliminated more quickly and the information will be stored so
that police have access to it when it is needed.
Clearly the government is satisfied that Bill C-3 has been
carefully drafted and on the basis of extensive consultation with
various interest groups. Contrary to what we have heard in the
House, taking samples for the data bank at the time of conviction
will not prevent police from doing their job. Instead it will
give police an effective investigative tool that will comply with
our constitutional requirements as defined by the Supreme Court
of Canada.
I believe Bill C-3 is a much stronger bill as a result of the
extensive consultation and debate that has taken place. As it
currently stands it is the government's view that Bill C-3 is
fundamentally sound. There is no question that the use of DNA
evidence has been a significant breakthrough in the criminal
justice system. We must not forget that we are dealing with a
powerful tool and one that must be safeguarded against potential
abuse.
The creation of a data bank that can be upheld in the courts
will go a very long way toward protecting Canadians from violent
and repeat offenders, and that is what we are here to do.
There is also no question that Bill C-3 has been and will
continue to be an important priority for the government. Public
safety is one of the government's top priorities. We will stand
behind that commitment 100%, unlike our Reform colleagues.
I believe all parties are motivated by the same goals: to
establish a national DNA data bank system that helps our law
enforcement personnel protect the public. The question is how do
we get there?
The government's position is prudent, responsible and ultimately
the best one for Canadians. It is a position that balances the
need of law enforcement to protect the public safety, the
interests of human rights and the democratic values of all
Canadians, something time and time again my Reform colleagues
seem to lose sight of.
1635
The legal opinion of three former justices from three different
provinces are entirely consistent with the opinion of the
Department of Justice and legal opinions, including legal counsel
for several provinces who testified before the standing
committee. The legal opinions underline the danger of including
provisions in Bill C-3 which would not withstand a charter
challenge. To effectively implement a DNA data bank, we need to
do it right, and that is what the government is doing.
It is better to have a law that works than one that is certain
to be struck down by the courts, which the Reform seems to have
no regard for. I am confident that Bill C-3 finds the
appropriate balance and I support it. I urge the members of the
House to support Bill C-3.
Enough of party propaganda, enough of arm twisting and using
special interest groups. Support it. It is a good bill. We can
proceed and create one of our nation's most valuable policing
investigative tools to date. This is a good bill and I am proud
to stand here today to speak to it.
Mr. Gerry Ritz (Battlefords—Lloydminster, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, it is certainly a pleasure to rise today to speak on
behalf of my constituents of Battlefords—Lloydminster regarding
Bill C-3, the DNA data bank.
The Reform Party continues to be firmly committed to restoring
confidence in our justice system and providing Canadians with
true security in their homes. This means providing the law
enforcement agencies with the latest technological tools to
detect and apprehend criminals. DNA identification is certainly
this type of tool. If used to its full potential, the DNA data
bank could be the single most important development in fighting
crime since fingerprinting.
Bill C-3, in its present form, denies police the quality tools
they need to fight and solve crime. At best Bill C-3 is a half
measure aimed to placate Canadians.
DNA data banks are currently in use in the United States, Great
Britain and New Zealand. DNA forensic analyses have been
instrumental in securing convictions in hundreds of cases in
Canada and have helped in the release of wrongly convicted
persons.
Bill C-3 in its current form gives law-abiding Canadians a false
sense of security. The Reform Party cannot support the bill in
its current form because of that. We do support the creation of
a DNA data bank, but the current scope of the bill is much too
limited. It seems the government would rather protect the
interests of criminals over those of law-abiding citizens, not an
equitable trade-off I am sure.
The government cites finances as one of the reasons why it is
not willing to expand the DNA data bank and allow for samples to
be taken at the time of charge rather than conviction. The
Reform Party proposed that samples be taken at the time of charge
and not analysed until conviction. This would have satisfied the
concern of the Canadian Police Association regarding offenders
who are released on bail pending trial and constitute a flight
risk.
The total cost of the DNA data bank, we are told, would be in
the $15 million to $18 million range. We see Bill C-68
implemented at a proposed cost of $85 million on the premise that
it may save one life, The costs have now escalated to two,
three, four times that. No one is sure. Again in order to save
one life we are wondering why the implementation of a DNA data
bank, which has proven to save lives and convict criminals in the
long run, would not be a good buy.
Unlike Bill C-68 costs can be recouped. The conclusive nature
of DNA evidence often results in substantial savings for police
in their investigations and the courts since that investigation
can be narrowed down and a trial simplified. Therefore in the
long term this is a cost effective tool and a great protection to
society. By analysing the DNA of all persons charged with
violent offences we could have numerous samples in that data
bank. We should think of the added security this would mean to
Canadians.
There are hundreds of unsolved assaults, rapes and homicides
where DNA evidence has been left at the scene. DNA
identification now offers us an unparalleled opportunity to solve
many of these cases. They have a real opportunity to strengthen
our hand-cuffed justice system and they refuse to change.
People's lives are at stake here as well as their quality of
life living in safer neighbourhoods. It is interesting to note
that the taking of a blood sample in the case of a suspected
impaired driver does not raise much concern. In fact society
applauds that policy. Why is it different, then, in the case of
DNA samples left at the scene of a crime? We take blood samples
for purposes of determining impairment. There is no difference.
1640
The invasion of privacy has already taken place. The Criminal
Code looks after that. Is there a difference here? I think not.
The authority to take samples is already in the Criminal Code and
overrules the privacy issue.
The Canadian Police Association prepared and submitted a legal
opinion to the justice committee concluding that there would be
no constitutional concern about taking samples at the time of
charge.
We all want to fight and reduce crime and reduce the time it
takes to solve a crime. We have a tremendous backlog in our
courts. If the fear is over the data bank and the keeping of
blood or fluid samples, we just have to look at the thousands of
samples taken by doctors and nurses each day and kept in some
sort of bank. These bank files are not being exploited so why
would a DNA data bank constitute any more of a risk?
This is certainly a major and very important piece of
legislation. The government must justify to the Canadian Police
Association and Canadian voters the reasons for invoking time
allocation for the seventh time to ram through a work in
progress. Canadians deserve better from their elected officials.
Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton East, Ref.): Madam Speaker,
I rise today to speak to Bill C-3 representing the constituents
of Edmonton East.
A member earlier in the House compared data bank registering to
tattooing during World War II. I thought at that time it was an
outrageous comparison. How could this possibly be compared to
something that evil done during the war? More likely I would
compare it to the simple registering we have with our social
security numbers. I think that would be a more apt comparison as
a reference.
Do we need to wait for another Olson before the government gets
serious and insists on a sample from all persons charged with
indictable offences? The legislation is based on the false idea
that DNA is useful in investigating some offences, mainly sexual,
but does not help others.
The fact is that offenders like Clifford Olson commit both types
of offences. He was convicted of more than 80 offences before he
killed his first known victim. DNA, if taken on these previous
charges, would have linked him to the first victim and led to his
arrest. None of the convictions were for charges that the
legislation covers. They were for theft, break and enter and
armed robbery. Police and victims groups favour making the
legislation more inclusive, but the government does not listen to
their concerns.
Samples should be retained in the same way fingerprints are kept
on file, essentially forever. Samples should be taken on charge
just as with fingerprints. Collections of samples should be the
same for the same offences as for fingerprinting. We should
obtain DNA as routinely as we obtain fingerprints.
We take blood samples in certain cases. We utilize blood
samples in the case of impaired driving and other charges. We
take breath samples for liquor offences. Taking breath samples
is a permanent record because the result of being over in the
test will go on a permanent record.
We must make the best use of this tool but the Liberal bill is
unduly restrictive. It costs only $50 to $60 to get a sample
into the database. This is a drop in the bucket when compared to
the costs, even the estimated costs, of what the gun registration
program is expected to be.
Obtaining DNA is not an onerous process and involves no real
invasion of the privacy of the person. It can come from saliva
or from a single hair or a drop of blood. DNA identification
does not endanger privacy since the information is just a series
of numbers and tells nothing about the person's health or mental
capabilities.
DNA can also exonerate a person suspected of a crime. I think
that point is one of the most important. It can clear those who
are falsely accused. It can clear them quickly and clear the air
forever. It will absolutely clear the person of having something
hanging over his head of which he has been accused and the
thinking that he just may possibly be guilty.
1645
The bottom line is really the most important and it is that DNA
has the potential to assist the police in their work and to save
lives. It is a tool of today. It is a tool that certainly is
used internationally in many countries. It is a tool as
important as fingerprinting was when fingerprinting was first
started and possibly is more descriptive than fingerprinting.
DNA is a tool that is useful. It is a tool police departments
want. It is a tool that will be good for Canadians and I believe
it is a tool that we must have now for all Canadians.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Is the House ready
for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The question is on
the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the
amendment?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): All those in favour of
the amendment will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): All those opposed will
please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): In my opinion the nays
have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The vote will be
deferred until 5.15 today.
SUSPENSION OF SITTING
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The House is now through
with debate and so I suggest you seek unanimous consent that the
House suspend until the calling of the vote.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(The sitting of the House was suspended at 4.48 p.m.)
1710
[Translation]
SITTING RESUMED
The House resumed at 5.15 p.m.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): It being 5.15 p.m., the
House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred division on
the amendment to the motion for third reading of Bill C-3.
Call in the members.
1745
[English]
(The House divided on the amendment, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Anders
| Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
|
Bailey
| Benoit
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Borotsik
|
Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
| Brison
| Cadman
| Casey
|
Casson
| Cummins
| Doyle
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
|
Duncan
| Elley
| Epp
| Gilmour
|
Goldring
| Gouk
| Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
|
Hanger
| Harris
| Hart
| Harvey
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Jaffer
| Johnston
|
Jones
| Keddy
(South Shore)
| Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
| Konrad
|
Lowther
| Lunn
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Manning
|
Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Matthews
| Mayfield
|
McNally
| Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
|
Muise
| Obhrai
| Pankiw
| Penson
|
Power
| Price
| Ramsay
| Reynolds
|
Ritz
| Scott
(Skeena)
| Stinson
| St - Jacques
|
Strahl
| Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
| Wayne
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
|
White
(North Vancouver)
| Williams – 66
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alarie
| Anderson
| Assad
|
Assadourian
| Asselin
| Augustine
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
|
Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Baker
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
|
Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellehumeur
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bergeron
| Bertrand
|
Bevilacqua
| Bigras
| Blaikie
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
|
Brien
| Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
|
Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
| Cardin
|
Carroll
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Clouthier
|
Coderre
| Cohen
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
|
Copps
| Cullen
| Davies
| de Savoye
|
Debien
| Desjarlais
| Desrochers
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
| Dromisky
|
Drouin
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
| Duhamel
|
Dumas
| Earle
| Easter
| Eggleton
|
Finlay
| Folco
| Fontana
| Fournier
|
Fry
| Gallaway
| Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
|
Godfrey
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Graham
|
Guimond
| Harb
| Hubbard
| Ianno
|
Iftody
| Jackson
| Jennings
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Laliberte
| Lalonde
|
Lastewka
| Laurin
| Lavigne
| Lebel
|
Lee
| Lefebvre
| Leung
| Lill
|
Lincoln
| Longfield
| Loubier
| MacAulay
|
Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
| Mancini
|
Manley
| Marceau
| Marchand
| Marchi
|
Marleau
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Massé
|
McCormick
| McDonough
| McGuire
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
|
McWhinney
| Ménard
| Mercier
| Mifflin
|
Milliken
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
| Mitchell
|
Murray
| Myers
| Nault
| Normand
|
Nystrom
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Peric
| Perron
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
|
Plamondon
| Pratt
| Proctor
| Proud
|
Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
|
Riis
| Robillard
| Robinson
| Rocheleau
|
Rock
| Sauvageau
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Sekora
|
Serré
| Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
|
St. Denis
| Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
Stoffer
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
|
Torsney
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Ur
| Valeri
|
Vanclief
| Vautour
| Venne
| Volpe
|
Wappel
| Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| Wilfert
|
Wood – 193
|
PAIRED
Members
Alcock
| Byrne
| Canuel
| Crête
|
Dalphond - Guiral
| Finestone
| Gagliano
| Gagnon
|
Grose
| Guay
| Marleau
| Saada
|
St - Hilaire
| St - Julien
| Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
| Turp
|
The Speaker: I declare the amendment defeated.
Mr. John Harvard: Mr. Speaker, I would like to be counted in the vote
in support of the government.
The Speaker: I have announced the results and
your vote will not be counted on the last vote but will be
counted on this one.
The next question is on the main motion.
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, I would propose that you
seek unanimous consent to apply in reverse the results of the
vote just taken to the motion now before the House, adding the
member for Charleswood St. James—Assiniboia.
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Alarie
| Anderson
| Assad
|
Assadourian
| Asselin
| Augustine
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
|
Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Baker
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
|
Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellehumeur
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bergeron
| Bertrand
|
Bevilacqua
| Bigras
| Blaikie
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
|
Brien
| Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
|
Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
| Cardin
|
Carroll
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Clouthier
|
Coderre
| Cohen
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
|
Copps
| Cullen
| Davies
| de Savoye
|
Debien
| Desjarlais
| Desrochers
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
| Dromisky
|
Drouin
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
| Duhamel
|
Dumas
| Earle
| Easter
| Eggleton
|
Finlay
| Folco
| Fontana
| Fournier
|
Fry
| Gallaway
| Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
|
Godfrey
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Graham
|
Guimond
| Harb
| Harvard
| Hubbard
|
Ianno
| Iftody
| Jackson
| Jennings
|
Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
|
Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Laliberte
|
Lalonde
| Lastewka
| Laurin
| Lavigne
|
Lebel
| Lee
| Lefebvre
| Leung
|
Lill
| Lincoln
| Longfield
| Loubier
|
MacAulay
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Mancini
| Manley
| Marceau
| Marchand
|
Marchi
| Marleau
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
|
Massé
| McCormick
| McDonough
| McGuire
|
McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McWhinney
| Ménard
| Mercier
|
Mifflin
| Milliken
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
|
Mitchell
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Normand
| Nystrom
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
|
O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
|
Patry
| Peric
| Perron
| Peterson
|
Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
|
Pillitteri
| Plamondon
| Pratt
| Proctor
|
Proud
| Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
|
Richardson
| Riis
| Robillard
| Robinson
|
Rocheleau
| Rock
| Sauvageau
| Scott
(Fredericton)
|
Sekora
| Serré
| Shepherd
| Solomon
|
Speller
| St. Denis
| Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Stoffer
| Szabo
| Telegdi
|
Thibeault
| Torsney
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Vautour
| Venne
|
Volpe
| Wappel
| Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
|
Wilfert
| Wood – 194
|
NAYS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Anders
| Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
|
Bailey
| Benoit
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Borotsik
|
Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
| Brison
| Cadman
| Casey
|
Casson
| Cummins
| Doyle
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
|
Duncan
| Elley
| Epp
| Gilmour
|
Goldring
| Gouk
| Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
|
Hanger
| Harris
| Hart
| Harvey
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Jaffer
| Johnston
|
Jones
| Keddy
(South Shore)
| Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
| Konrad
|
Lowther
| Lunn
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Manning
|
Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Matthews
| Mayfield
|
McNally
| Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
|
Muise
| Obhrai
| Pankiw
| Penson
|
Power
| Price
| Ramsay
| Reynolds
|
Ritz
| Scott
(Skeena)
| Stinson
| St - Jacques
|
Strahl
| Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
| Wayne
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
|
White
(North Vancouver)
| Williams – 66
|
PAIRED
Members
Alcock
| Byrne
| Canuel
| Crête
|
Dalphond - Guiral
| Finestone
| Gagliano
| Gagnon
|
Grose
| Guay
| Marleau
| Saada
|
St - Hilaire
| St - Julien
| Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
| Turp
|
The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
(Bill read the third time and passed)
* * *
CANADA SMALL BUSINESS FINANCING ACT
The House resumed from September 28 consideration of the motion
that Bill C-53, an act to to increase the availability of
financing for the establishment, expansion, modernization and
improvement of small businesses, be read the second time and
referred to a committee; and of the amendment.
The Speaker: The House will now proceed to the taking of
the deferred recorded division on the amendment to the motion at
second reading stage of Bill C-53.
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, if the House would agree, I
propose that you seek unanimous consent that members who voted on
the previous motion be recorded as having voted on the motion now
before the House with Liberal members voting nay.
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Chuck Strahl: Mr. Speaker, Reform Party members
present will vote yes. I would like to note the absence of the
member for Peace River for this vote.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, Bloc Quebecois members are
opposed to the motion.
[English]
Mr. John Solomon: Mr. Speaker, members of the NDP vote no
on this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, members of our party will vote
against this motion.
[English]
(The House divided on the amendment, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Anders
| Bailey
|
Benoit
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
| Cadman
| Casson
|
Cummins
| Duncan
| Elley
| Epp
|
Gilmour
| Goldring
| Gouk
| Grewal
|
Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Hanger
| Harris
| Hart
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Jaffer
| Johnston
|
Kenney
(Calgary - Sud - Est)
| Konrad
| Lowther
| Lunn
|
Manning
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Mayfield
|
McNally
| Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
|
Obhrai
| Pankiw
| Ramsay
| Reynolds
|
Ritz
| Scott
(Skeena)
| Stinson
| Strahl
|
White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
| Williams – 47
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alarie
| Anderson
| Assad
|
Assadourian
| Asselin
| Augustine
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
|
Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellehumeur
| Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bergeron
|
Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Bigras
|
Blaikie
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
|
Borotsik
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brien
|
Brison
| Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
|
Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
| Cardin
|
Carroll
| Casey
| Catterall
| Cauchon
|
Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
|
Clouthier
| Coderre
| Cohen
| Collenette
|
Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
| Davies
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Desjarlais
| Desrochers
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
|
Doyle
| Dromisky
| Drouin
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
|
Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duceppe
| Duhamel
| Dumas
|
Earle
| Easter
| Eggleton
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Fontana
| Fournier
| Fry
|
Gallaway
| Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
| Godfrey
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Graham
| Guimond
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
| Hubbard
|
Ianno
| Iftody
| Jackson
| Jennings
|
Jones
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Keddy
(South Shore)
|
Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
|
Kraft Sloan
| Laliberte
| Lalonde
| Lastewka
|
Laurin
| Lavigne
| Lebel
| Lee
|
Lefebvre
| Leung
| Lill
| Lincoln
|
Longfield
| Loubier
| MacAulay
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
|
Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
| Mancini
|
Manley
| Marceau
| Marchand
| Marchi
|
Marleau
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Massé
|
Matthews
| McCormick
| McDonough
| McGuire
|
McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McWhinney
| Ménard
| Mercier
|
Mifflin
| Milliken
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
|
Mitchell
| Muise
| Murray
| Myers
|
Nault
| Normand
| Nystrom
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
|
O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
|
Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
| Perron
|
Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Picard
(Drummond)
|
Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Plamondon
| Power
|
Pratt
| Price
| Proctor
| Proud
|
Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
|
Riis
| Robillard
| Robinson
| Rocheleau
|
Rock
| Sauvageau
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Sekora
|
Serré
| Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
|
St. Denis
| Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
St - Jacques
| Stoffer
| Szabo
| Telegdi
|
Thibeault
| Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
| Torsney
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
|
Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
| Vautour
|
Venne
| Volpe
| Wappel
| Wasylycia - Leis
|
Wayne
| Whelan
| Wilfert
| Wood – 212
|
PAIRED
Members
Alcock
| Byrne
| Canuel
| Crête
|
Dalphond - Guiral
| Finestone
| Gagliano
| Gagnon
|
Grose
| Guay
| Marleau
| Saada
|
St - Hilaire
| St - Julien
| Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
| Turp
|
The Speaker: I declare the amendment negatived.
1750
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The House will now proceed
to the consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on
today's Order Paper.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[English]
CRIMINAL RECORDS ACT
The House resumed from May 15 consideration of the motion that
Bill C-284, an act to amend the Criminal Records Act and the
Canadian Human Rights Act (offences against children), be read
the second time and referred to a committee.
Mr. Gerry Ritz (Battlefords—Lloydminster, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, it is a pleasure to stand here this evening and speak in
the final hour of debate on the private member's bill put forward
by my colleague from Calgary Centre. It is of profound
importance for the health and well-being of our most important
resource in Canada, our children.
Governments at all levels often say that they recognize the
importance of children's welfare for the future of the country,
but they often have a strange way of showing it. Our income tax
structure encourages two income families and common law
relationships, although there is overwhelming empirical evidence
that both these situations are among the least desirable for the
healthy development of children.
Many members of this House have probably bought into United
Nations documents that are supposed to protect the rights of the
child. Because of manipulation by special interest groups, many
subsidized by the Canadian taxpayer, these charters actually seem
to undermine the ability of and the responsibility for parents to
guide and nurture their children.
In a recent news article the Secretary of State for Children and
Youth said “We feel our activities are child centred. Our main
concern is what happens to children, and the issue of parents is
very, very, I would say, controversial”. If the concern really
was for the child, then the well-being of parents and their
families would be front and centre, not considered an annoyance
by this government.
The term “child centred” also appears in education literature
that was popular a few years ago. The philosophy that letting
kids decide what they wanted to learn, when they felt like
learning it, was somehow going to lead to happier, well adjusted
students. The result, as we now know, is that a lack in
direction and in an appreciation of the responsibilities that
adults were supposed to provide them, many children felt no
obligation to learn at all. Many jurisdictions across Canada are
retreating from the failed experiment of trying to turn innocent
children into miniature adults.
I am not claiming that there is a direct connection, but the
policy of absolving adults of their responsibilities to behave
properly seems to be the other side of the coin. We seem to have
forgotten the social impact of giving individuals a free ride
when it comes to the consequences of their actions. We often
seem so concerned about the rights of the convict that we
completely ignore the loss of dignity, privacy and the enjoyment
of life that these criminals visit upon their victims and
families.
1755
Members on this side of the House recognize that all legislation
must be concerned with balance.
The administration of justice requires not only a presumption of
innocence for the individual charged with a crime, but that any
punishment that results from a rightful conviction must fit the
crime.
There is a process in place for dealing with criminal activity
that has to include mitigating circumstances. We may stop a lot
of thieves by ordering their hands to be cut off, but our society
has decided that sort of punishment is too extreme.
We believe in mercy and we believe that people should get a
chance to atone for their transgressions at a later date. At one
time these were a couple of elements among many in our justice
system, but these days many Canadians feel that they have become
the driving force.
Many Canadians feel that the balance has been upset and now the
justice system assumes that criminals are always remorseful and
will automatically respond to things like day parole and
psychiatric counselling. Far from it.
Rightly or wrongly, the perception has been created that the
justice system has been skewed to give every consideration to the
criminal and little is being done to heal the wounds of the
victims.
Many Canadians have expressed the desire to see more done on the
side of prevention. They want more police officers on the
street, more direct and immediate consequences for all criminal
acts, more onus being placed on parents for the actions of
minors, a greater emphasis on making criminals pay the full price
for their crimes and less of a push to get them back on the
street.
While opposing sides may argue about the efficiency of
incarcerating versus rehabilitating criminals, police are aware
that a rash of property crimes, for example, usually points to
the recent release of a criminal who favours that sort of action.
It is a fact of life.
There is no end of statistics to show the tendency of various
criminals to reoffend and these are often used by people to prove
their pet theories about justice.
I do not want to get into a numbers game, nor do I want to argue
whether criminals need more or less jail or whether one kind of
punishment is more effective than another. That is not what Bill
C-284 is all about. It is not about tormenting a particular type
of criminal for the rest of their life or imposing more jail time
on someone who has supposedly served their time and is now trying
to make a life for themselves.
It is true that Bill C-284 does target a particular kind of
criminal and seeks to put at public disposal an item of personal
information that our system has a method of keeping from the
public under ordinary circumstances.
Some may interpret this as being unnecessarily intrusive, but
this bill seeks to safeguard a particular kind of victim and is
an attempt to bring balance to the system on that victim's
behalf.
We recognize that criminals have certain rights and that the
criminals who have served time for their crimes may have earned a
certain relief from further punishment. However, the victims who
we are concerned with here, like many victims who survived the
violation against them, often serve a lifetime sentence
themselves. They carry those emotional scars for life.
The victims who this bill concerns itself with are usually
helpless, vulnerable and find it difficult to comprehend or deal
with what is done to them. These victims are our children and
our families.
The perpetrators of this most hideous crime are known as
pedophiles or sex offenders. Despite what our deepest revulsion
urges us to do to these people, we try to remember that we must
have balance.
The members of this House should understand that Bill C-284 is
not about the punishment of that individual based on suspicion or
prejudice, it is about directing convicted criminals away from
situations in which they have proven they cannot be trusted.
We are not asking that pardoned sex offenders be barred from
society, but that people in positions of responsibility over
children be given the opportunity to discover the true history of
the potential employees they are looking at hiring.
This bill does not call for the public broadcast of anyone's
criminal history. It merely allows for responsible parties to
find out if an individual had ever been pardoned for a sexual
offence, and then only if that individual actually applies for a
job working with children.
When we consider the words of Correctional Services Canada that
there is evidence of a substantial increase in the risk for
sexual re-offending for that group of offenders with a prior
history, and when we discover that the National Parole Board does
not even keep track of the more than 16,000 pardons it hands out
by type of crime, then we can say that there is a very small
price to pay in terms of curtailing the freedoms of this group.
I would like to close by saying that the solicitor general
already has the legal authority to override a pardon if it is in
the interest of the administration of justice.
I believe it is only just that we work to prevent the tragedy of
child victimization any way that we can, and this bill gives us
one more tool to accomplish that end. I urge everyone in this
House to support the bill.
1800
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I rise today to address a very important issue on behalf of the
residents of Waterloo—Wellington. It is obvious the hon. member
for Calgary Centre has worked very hard to bring this matter to
the attention of the House as a votable item. His desire to
improve the law, to redress the anomaly he perceives in the
legislation and his suggestions for reform outlined in the bill
before us today are examples of the impact private members can
have in the Parliament of Canada.
The hon. member is doing the House and the government a service
by identifying an area of the Criminal Records Act that affects
the process of granting pardons and the subsequent treatment of
both the pardoned records and the pardoned individual. He points
out that the current provisions of the act could favour the
pardoned individual to the possible detriment of society at
large.
It follows therefore that the proposals put forward by the hon.
member may adversely affect Canadians with criminal records even
after they have successfully turned their lives around and been
given the benefit of a pardon. Therefore by proposing solutions
as he has done the member is contradicting the apparent intent of
the legislation which at its inception was duly considered and
approved by those who went before us and by the members of the
other place.
While we might all benefit from his industrious example and
emulate his thoughtful efforts, we must carefully consider what
he is saying. He clearly believes that the reasoning applied in
drafting our current Criminal Records Act and indeed the human
rights act was somehow faulty. This is a level of intervention
we must all take seriously. I find that my attention is
immediately engaged when it becomes necessary to amend our human
rights act to accomplish a legislative change that is otherwise
put forward as a positive reform. Most often we discuss issues
in terms of generalities or as they say now at the macro level.
However, in our jobs there can be insufficient time to respond
fully to the concerns of individual constituents. This is
particularly problematic when the issue concerns those citizens
who do not have experience in dealing with the mechanism of
government and who feel powerless in the face of bureaucratic
rules. Also left out are those who do not have an organized or
sophisticated proponent to speak loudly for their rights.
The hon. member for Calgary Centre has taken the time to be just
such an advocate by responding to reports of harm done in a few
individual cases. I am not saying for a moment that harm has
not befallen Canadians or that individual tragedies are
unimportant. They are. In particular I recognize the level of
concern we must bring to bear on the protection of young
Canadians from sexual predators. Nothing that may occupy our
time in this place is more important than the safety of those
least able to defend themselves.
Nonetheless, difficulties may arise from the pursuit of
solutions based on specific experiences however distressing and
tragic. I could offer as examples some of the most recent cases
of deplorable, repeated and devastating child sexual abuse where
the predators had no previous record to be found, pardoned or
otherwise. In others, the organizations responsible for the
offenders' involvement in positions of trust had not only made no
effort to investigate the offenders' backgrounds but also had
actively shielded them from complaints and possibility of
investigations. In light of these examples, it is possible that
the proposal put forth through Bill C-284 may be either
incomplete or somewhat misdirected.
I believe that more and more the role of the private member may
be to respond to the needs and aspirations of individual
citizens. This is why I believe the effort of the member for
Calgary Centre in identifying a possible source of inequity and
harm and in proposing legislative solutions is so important. By
sponsoring the initiative before us today, my honourable
colleague has fulfilled his most important obligation as a
private member.
What problem has my colleague identified and what solutions does
he propose? The purpose of Bill C-284 is to amend the Criminal
Records Act to provide for the automatic revelation of the
pardoned criminal records of offences relating to the sexual
exploitation of children should the offender thereafter seek a
position as a caregiver, coach or in another role in which he or
she might have power and influence over young people.
Bill C-284 is limited in focus to a single primary objective. It
seeks to address concerns over the current act which requires
that the records of those who are granted a pardon be sealed and
set aside to be revealed only in a very particular circumstance
and only on the approval of the Solicitor General of Canada. The
proposal suggests a pardon that could be set aside in a much more
casual way at the stroke of a bureaucratic pen.
We must proceed very cautiously in this regard.
1805
It should be noted that regardless of the disposition of a
criminal record reference to the particulars of a case may exist
in various locations and be under the control of various
authorities. When the Criminal Records Act was passed the
limited effect of pardons granted under its auspices was
acknowledged.
As I am sure other hon. members will mention, only the release
of federal records is directly constrained through the granting
of a pardon.
There may be local court and police records that persist and
certainly the original media coverage and local knowledge of the
crimes in question remain unimpeded except by the passage of
time. Such historical records are becoming more available
through the search capabilities of our society's increasingly
sophisticated electronic research tools. The benefits of a
pardon are limited but the hon. member nonetheless seeks today to
remove even this relief from certain pardoned offenders.
My colleague's proposal for the revelation of records in a
narrow and specific fashion may prove difficult to implement.
I reiterate that there is no single exclusive record keeping
system in the country. Due to the federal nature of our
political arrangements, records of criminal occurrences including
records of arrest, trial, conviction and conditional release and
supervision may exist in many places. As mentioned, media
reports are more likely to exist in cases that may be of such a
serious and shocking nature that they may lend themselves to
media sensationalization. These are the records the hon.
member seeks to remove from the protection of pardons under the
Criminal Records Act.
A further complication is that the pardoned record sought in the
interest of a children's safety offence may form part of a series
of charges and dispositions. Should these more or less related
convictions also come to light? I think not.
Perhaps the most significant flaw in the hon. member's bill is
that it ignores that the Criminal Records Act already provides
for disclosure and indeed revocation of pardoned records where
necessary and appropriate.
Under section 6 of the act the solicitor general may at any time
disclose a pardoned record to any person where the minister is
satisfied that it is desirable to do so in the interests of the
administration of justice or for any purpose related to national
or international safety or security. This is a very broad test
if not an onerous standard to meet. Any person or organization
may make an application for the unsealing and disclosure of an
ex-offender's pardoned record.
Further, under section 7.2 of the act a pardon will be
automatically revoked if the person is ever again convicted of an
indictable federal offence. It does not end there. Under section
6.2 of the act there can be limited disclosure of the existence
of a pardoned record to police forces under specified
circumstances.
I mention all of this because the bill before us today seeks to
provide corrective solutions to a factor that may not be as
problematic as it first appears. Let us be clear that there are
already a number of straightforward mechanisms for disclosing or
revoking a pardoned record in appropriate circumstances. Many
people have advocated more substantial reform during the past
decade. Specific proposals have been developed which identify
other provisions under the current act which would benefit from
review and amendment.
Representatives of some provincial governments have made their
views known, as has the voluntary sector active in the criminal
justice system. These wider reforms are intended to address
identified inconsistencies as well as important areas of possible
improvement which have been put forward.
If the outcome of the member's work to date has been that the
government is moving ahead to complete a review of outstanding
issues focusing particularly on the areas to which my friend has
drawn our attention, I suggest this has been an indication of the
close collaboration between private members and the government.
This would amount to proof of the effect that one member speaking
for the rights of private citizens and constituents can have in
changing the laws in Canada.
In wrapping up I return to a theme which I commented on earlier,
the important role of private members' bills and the often
unheralded accomplishments of those members who identify
problems. I thank the hon. member for bringing that to our
attention.
1810
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Madam Speaker,
the aim of Bill C-284 is to provide for a specific instance where
public interest so requires for a limited disclosure of a record
of conviction for an offender who has been pardoned where the
conviction was for a sexual offence against a child. Thus when
a sexual offender applies for a position of trust with respect
to a child or children, the employer could have access to the
individual's criminal record.
Before looking at the individual clauses in detail, I think it
would be a good idea to look at the clauses individually.
Clause 1 amends the preamble to the Criminal Records Act by
providing for an exception whereby a criminal record may be
disclosed where public interest so requires it.
Clause 2 amends section 6 of the Criminal Records Act by
requiring—and this is very important—the minister to disclose
information on the criminal history of a job applicant pardoned
for a sexual offence against a child.
Clause 3 amends the Canadian Human Rights Act by providing that
a hiring policy based on a criminal history is not
discriminatory where the job involves young children.
The aim of Bill C-284 is to protect society and especially
children against potential repeat offenders.
Crimes involving violence against young children are probably
the most repugnant of all. People find such acts both shocking
and incomprehensible. It is difficult to comprehend how an
individual can sully youth in this manner and, more importantly,
then want to put themselves in a position to repeat the offence
with young people in a job involving the care of children or
such like.
The member for Calgary Centre is legitimately attacking this
scourge. He proposes that someone who has committed a sexual
offence against a child be never permitted to obtain work that
would put children in his care or put him in a position of
authority over a child.
We have already examined this in the past. Society has already
looked as these problems, but there are perhaps loopholes in the
law, and the hon. member's work is important.
Our community recognizes that everyone has the right to be free
from all forms of discrimination on the basis of social
conditions. In this respect, section 2 of the Canadian Human
Rights Act states:
The purpose of this act is to extend the laws in Canada to give
effect—to the principle that every individual should have an
equal opportunity with other individuals to make for himself or
herself the life that he or she is able and wishes to have,
consistent with his or her duties and obligations as a member of
society, without being hindered in or prevented from doing so by
discriminatory practices based on—conviction for an offence
for which a pardon has been granted.
The Quebec charter of human rights and freedoms more
specifically provides that individuals may not be discriminated
against upon hiring on the basis of criminal background.
Let me read you section 18.2 of the charter, which provides for
an exception that is extremely important and interesting in
relation to our debate today. It reads as follows:
No one may fire, refuse to hire or penalize a person in any
other way in his or her job by reason solely of the fact that
this person has been convicted of a criminal or penal offence—
What follows is very important. I read on:
The phrase “provided this offence has no relation to the job” is
extremely important.
As we can see, the right to non-discrimination is not an absolute
right; in some cases, the lawmaker saw fit to include
exceptions. For example, section 15 of the Canadian Human Rights
Act states:
It is not a discriminatory practice if (a) any refusal,
exclusion, expulsion, suspension, limitation, specification or
preference in relation to any employment is established by an
employer to be based on a bona fide occupational requirement;
This means an employer may refuse to employ an individual who
does not meet the skill requirements without this being
considered a discriminatory practice.
1815
On the other hand, recognition of the employee's right to not be
penalized for having committed a criminal act under section 18.2
of the Quebec charter does not prevent the employer from acting.
In fact, where the alleged offence is related to the job, the
employer may take appropriate measures to bypass or sanction an
employee whose duties are directly linked to a criminal past.
This applies to positions considered ones of trust by the
public, such as those held by peace officers, teachers and even
lawyers.
Under the Criminal Records Act, rehabilitation and pardon are
synonymous. It is therefore to be expected that an individual
who has been given a pardon may enjoy unrestricted freedom.
Rehabilitation should ensure that such an individual is no
longer a threat to public safety. However, this is not always
the case, even where rehabilitation has occurred. Certain
illnesses, as I shall mention, are hard to treat.
Nevertheless, as responsible lawmakers, we must make sure that
rehabilitation does not lead to recidivism. For example, some
experts say that pedophilia is incurable and that no
psychological treatment can correct this deviance. If this were
true, all penal corrective measures would be ineffective. Given
that pedophiles are not in prison for life, it is reasonable to
fear that on their release some form of recidivism is possible.
It is probably because of this uncertainty, which young people
could pay for, that the lawmaker established ways to supervise
and monitor sexual criminals after their release.
I think the government member covered this earlier, but
unfortunately, this monitoring and supervision is not foolproof.
Section 161 of the Criminal Code provides that the court may
prevent a sexual offender from taking or keeping a job or
volunteer work that would put him in a position of trust or
authority with persons under 14 years of age.
The effectiveness of the process in section 161 of the Criminal
Code is, however, contingent on the good faith of the offenders
who want to comply with the court order. One only has to visit
the courthouse on days when the court is sitting to realize that
many orders are breached. Section 161 is a good section, it is
a start, but it is too discretionary. It puts the onus on the
offender to declare certain things.
Follow up is a problem, because follow-up is based on the good
faith of the offender.
A question arises here: Are we to enable employers to anticipate
the bad faith of certain offenders by allowing them to have
access to offenders' records and to deny employment as a result?
I think this is a question raised by the bill, and with all I
have said, we must say yes to this question in order to protect
children.
In conclusion, non-discrimination implies the right to not be
subjected to an illegal distinction based on criminal offences
for which one has been pardoned. Non-discrimination is not,
however, an absolute concept.
Public safety may justify specific measures which take
individuals' characteristics into consideration, their criminal
background for instance, as well as giving consideration to
those whom we wish to protect.
In the case of Bill C-284 introduced by the hon. member for
Calgary Centre, those we wish to protect are children, and I
wholly support that objective.
Since the safety of children necessitates unceasing vigilance
and since the right to non-discrimination is not an absolute
concept, in that the public interest could justify restriction
of that right, a controlled disclosure of the records of sex
offenders could be justified. For this reason, I can tell the
hon. member introducing this bill that the Bloc Quebecois is in
favour of it.
Ms. Diane St-Jacques (Shefford, PC): Madam Speaker, it is with
great interest that I take part in the debate on Bill C-284.
Let me say from the outset that this bill should get the
unanimous support of the House, on behalf of all the children in
this country.
1820
[English]
I would first like to praise the member for Calgary Centre for
tabling such a pertinent piece of legislation. Bill C-284 which
proposes to amend the Criminal Records Act and the Canadian Human
Rights Act with respect to sexual offences against children is
important in the sense that it focuses on one of the highest
priorities this assembly should have: the protection of children
from abuse.
Indeed, as parliamentarians we have the responsibility to fulfil
the fundamental role of government to ensure the protection of
our citizens. This is especially true for the most innocent in
society, our children.
[Translation]
Millions of them, throughout the country, are counting on us to
find the path that will safely lead them to the adult world.
With the innocence and the openness that are their trademarks,
children successfully meet sports, recreational and educational
challenges; they take part in community activities with
enthusiasm and creativity; they fill us with joy and contentment
and give meaning to the role of guide and protector that society
has bestowed on us, today's adults.
We must not betray the trust that children put in us. Better
still, we must earn that trust.
To this end, it is imperative that we shield their efforts and
their valuable contribution to the building of tomorrow's
society.
Unfortunately, children are all too often the victims of the
trust and the authority they bestow upon us with such
spontaneity and candour.
As a mother, I am always disturbed by statistics such as those
telling us that one girl out of three is the victim of a sexual
assault before reaching the age of 18, and that one out of every
six boys suffers the same fate before the age of 16.
This is even worse when you consider that we, in this country,
have the means to deal with sex offenders who, as you know, have
one of the highest recidivism rate among criminal offenders.
These statistics suggest that we are sorely failing as
legislators.
The bill proposes a way to increase our vigilance by creating a
fair balance between the right of offenders to return to
society, and the right of our children to remain full members of
our society and to be safe.
Some may wonder about the right to privacy. As the sponsor of
this bill explained when he introduced his legislation in the
House, the privacy commissioner has already ruled that the act
he administers does not prevent the disclosure of personal
information when this is done in the public interest.
[English]
It is without a doubt in the public interest for children not to
be exposed to those who have abused them in the past and who are
likely to do so again in the future as the relevant statistics so
clearly show.
[Translation]
Who is targeted by this initiative? Any adult convicted of a
sexual offence against a child who applies for a new job and
could again be tempted to use a position of trust and authority
to abuse, once too often, young victims placed under his care.
That is the only purpose of this bill. The proposed changes are
explicitly aimed at people applying for a position of trust and
authority with respect to children.
Who among us has never had to put a loved one under the
supervision of a day care centre, a sports monitor or a
recreation leader? Beforehand, we enquire about the reputation
of the agency or the group in question.
This reputation, which is crucial to the survival of any
organization dealing with children, can easily be tarnished by
unscrupulous individuals who readily take advantage, to commit
more offences, of the position of trust the organization or
group put so much energy and patience into building up.
Make no mistake about it: when such a crime occurs, it is as
much a tragedy for the organization as it is for the actual
victims. Therefore, we have to provide these organizations with
the tools they need to maintain a flawless reputation and
significantly contribute to the harmonious development of the
Canadian society.
[English]
We all know that Canadians need to believe that organizations in
which they entrust their children's safety have taken all the
necessary actions to protect them.
1825
The bill would enable those responsible for children to make
fully informed decisions about whom they hire by having the
capacity to identify and eventually keep out those who present
more of a risk when in a position of trust.
Let us be clear. Bill C-284 does not propose that sex offences
against children can never be pardoned. It does not propose
either that if one makes a mistake such as this it should be
forever on one's criminal record. What the bill proposes is that
if one sexually abuses children the person could effectively be
prevented from holding a position of care or authority over
children again.
[Translation]
Children must remain our absolute priority. They are the ones
that will have to deal throughout their entire lives with the
often painful and sometimes disastrous effects of an experience
they should have and could have been spared.
Permit me, if you will, to point out the government's position
in this regard: “The experiences of Canada's children,
especially in the early years, influence their health, their
well-being, and their ability to learn and adapt throughout their
entire lives”.
This quote from the speech from the throne brings us back to the
point and encourages us to assume our responsibilities towards
those who represent our nation's future.
I therefore encourage the government to support this bill, which
invites us to assume our responsibility as lawmakers and to help
all victims according to the widely shared principle of
prevention.
In this regard, we will recall that the government made a
commitment to provide an additional $850 million annually to
improve the Canadian child tax benefit. I congratulate it on
this, although I maintain that the benefit should be indexed.
That said, would it not be ironic to hear our leaders say, on
one hand, that they want to invest in our children while, on the
other, refusing to take the measures necessary to protect this
investment.
Yet there is no point in hoping that the government can
successfully build a true partnership with the private and
volunteer sectors for the development of our children, if it
does not first and foremost take the necessary steps to protect
both the organizations in question and the young people they
serve.
I would like to point out, if I may, that this bill dovetails
perfectly with the youth justice strategy announced by the
Minister of Justice this past May.
At that time, one of the recommendations she made was
publication of the names of all young offenders convicted of
serious sexual assault charges.
What is being proposed here is merely an extension of that
measure to adults, along with a framework for doing so. People
must not draw the conclusion that what is involved is a blanket
disclosure.
On the contrary, these amendments would apply only within the
context of an offender's applying for a position of trust with
respect to children. As well, disclosure would not be done
without his knowledge, because the bill stipulates that
applicants are to be informed.
In closing, I am calling on all members of this House for
unconditional support of Bill C-284, hoping that we can place the
interests of our children foremost, before any partisan
differences.
[English]
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, it is an honour to be able to speak in support of my
colleague's bill, Bill C-284. The member for Calgary Centre has
done a lot of hard work on this very important issue.
Many in society are concerned about the safety of our children.
Many are concerned about ensuring that those responsible for
children will not abuse their position of trust. Many are
concerned about how difficult it is for children's organizations
to know whom it is they are hiring and to be sure they are not
putting children at risk. These are the concerns which Bill
C-284 intends to address.
The bill would enable those responsible for children to make
fully informed decisions about whom they hire. Bill C-284 will
give parents with children and third party care the assurance
that those responsible for looking after their children have not
abused this position of authority in the past.
Bill C-284 is specific in its intent to better protect our
children from those who have been abusive toward them in the
past. Bill C-284 proposes to allow for the limited disclosure of
an individual's criminal record if the individual has been
convicted of a sexual offence against a child and later applies
for a position of trust with respect to children.
1830
Such a disclosure will include an individual's criminal record
for a previous sexual offence against a child or children, even
if one had served one's sentence and had later received a pardon
which had removed the notice of conviction from the individual's
criminal record.
I am glad to note that this is a votable bill and that so many
members are speaking in favour of this very important bill.
It is certainly in the public interest for children not to be
exposed to those who have abused children in the past and are
more likely to do so again. It is in the public interest for
parents to have confidence in those who are caring for their
children.
As a former teacher and child care worker I know the importance
that working with children has and the position of trust
individuals in those positions are entrusted with. I emphasize
that the limited disclosure, which I mentioned earlier, will only
take effect when an individual applies for a position of trust
with respect to a child or to children, a point which we hope the
government takes note of.
I also support this bill for other reasons. This bill does not
propose that sex offences against children can never be pardoned.
This bill does not propose if one makes a mistake such as that,
it should be forever on one's record. Rather, Bill C-284
proposes that if one does sexually abuse children, that person
should effectively be prevented from holding a position of
authority with children again. Those responsible for children
will be able to see that a job applicant has abused such a
position of trust in the past and thus be more judicious in their
hiring practices.
Why is Bill C-284 necessary? Essentially it sends a message
that the protection of our children is of paramount importance.
What more valuable resource do we have, as other members have
alluded to earlier in this chamber, than our children? Not only
as individuals, as families, but as a society we must protect our
children.
We see that many statistics and reports have been made that show
that individuals who have committed these types of offences are
more likely to offend again. I am not saying that all do, but
research shows that individuals are more likely to offend again
if they have committed these types of offences before.
I would also like to mention the point of privacy which was
brought forward by the government member. In a May 1996
discussion paper the Privacy Commissioner explained that the
Privacy Act does not prevent the release of personal information
if it is in the public interest to release such information. In
fact the act specifically permits the release of personal
information in the public interest.
In April 1996 an RCMP protocol manual said that they defined
public interest as evaluated on the basis of whether it is
specific, current and probable, and where there is a possible
invasion of privacy balanced against the public interest
consideration may be given to who would be receiving the
information and whether any controls can be placed on the further
use or release of this information.
I would submit to members of this House that the disclosure
provisions of Bill C-284 fall well within the accepted protocol
for the release of personal information of which one's criminal
record is a part.
I would like to close by noting a particular case that happened
in the town I lived in when I was a youngster. In fact, this
story was brought to mind by an article written in the Ottawa
Citizen back in November of last year by an individual
whose name is Abby Drover. For those who have suffered from
sexual abuse, she characterized it as a life sentence.
I remember this particular case because of its gruesomeness. I
do not want to go into the details of it, but just say that those
who would commit such offences against children violate not only
our children but us as a whole and as a society. We must put the
emphasis on protecting our children because they are the most
valuable resource that we have.
1835
As the father of four young children, I speak strongly in
support of this bill. I urge all members when we vote on this
very important bill next week to give it their full support.
Mr. Eric Lowther: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I was wondering if it would be agreeable to the House
that I might seek unanimous consent to conclude debate on this
particular bill in the time remaining.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Is there unanimous
consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I
want to thank all hon. members for the support that has been
given to this bill. It clearly demonstrates that we can work
occasionally in a non-partisan way. I also appreciate the
comments.
I just conclude on some of the points that were made here today
and give a clarification on some key themes that were repeated.
In Canada today almost 99% of those who apply for pardons
actually get a pardon. It is almost a case that if you want one,
you get one. Currently there is no information kept as to what
kind of crimes are pardoned and which ones are not.
We know for a fact that pedophiles have a high rate of
recidivism and we put people at risk who are in their care,
particularly children of course. This is what the bill is trying
to address which is what we have talked about.
Another key thing we have talked about is that this is in the
public interest, so much so that it overrides the privacy
concerns of the Privacy Commissioner and he has even said so.
It is an important bill to support. Sometimes what happens with
specific bills like this is that the government says it has to do
a much more comprehensive review of the issue. Things go on hold
and we live with the status quo. Sometimes when we go with the
comprehensive review, the idea is that it is too comprehensive
and something more specific is needed so nothing ever happens.
This bill, if it can help one child being delivered from abuse
and not having to experience the life sentence that abuse is, is
worth us putting in place. If we want to do a more comprehensive
review on a go forward basis, I have no problem with that.
My appeal to the House is that even if this just stops the abuse
of one child then is it not worth it to move this bill along and
make the larger changes if need be in the future.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Pursuant to an order
made earlier today, the question is deemed put and the recorded
division is deemed demanded and deferred until Tuesday, October
6, 1998 at the expiry of the time provided for Government Orders.
ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
[English]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to
have been moved.
RAILWAYS
Mr. John Solomon (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, NDP):
Madam Speaker, on June 2 I urged the transport minister to ask CN
for a standstill on rail line abandonments until Justice Estey's
report is received at year end. This question was precipitated
by CN's announced closing of the Imperial subdivision in my
riding.
The transport minister said he was counting on the goodwill of
the railways not to abandon lines until the grain transportation
review by Justice Willard Estey was complete. So much for
goodwill. Both CN and now the CPR have announced their intention
to close branch lines under the new process implemented with
changes to the Canadian Transportation Act.
This request seemed reasonable because every day in question
period the government told us it was waiting for the MacKay
report on the bank mergers. Well why wait for MacKay but not
Estey? That is what I want to know and so do the farmers in
Saskatchewan.
For the record, the mandate of Justice Estey's review includes
“ensuring that Canada has the world's most efficient, viable,
and competitive grain handling and transportation system to meet
the ongoing and long term expectations and demands of all
customers”.
I guess there are a number of ways to do that but the way the
Liberal government has approached the entire grain transportation
system is not one of them. Here is what the Liberals did
instead: They spent millions of taxpayers' dollars to upgrade
CN's rail lines. Then they privatized the CN. Then CN announced
it would abandon those lines for a salvage value of between
$25,000 and $80,000 per mile, lines that will cost $1 million per
mile to rebuild.
1840
The Liberal government also changed the Canadian Transportation
Act to remove the federal transport minister's ability to say no
to rail line abandonments. Now when asked to support a
standstill he can say “my hands are tied”. It is a great
trick. Houdini ties his own hands. Just like Houdini, maybe the
minister could untie them again by making amendments to the CTA,
like the ones suggested by the Government of Saskatchewan.
I do not have time to go into the list today of what the
government has proposed, but if there is no action from the
Liberal side of the House, I will introduce a private members'
bill to deal with those amendments myself.
A major cost associated with this policy of rail line
abandonments is the increased wear and tear on Saskatchewan,
Alberta and Manitoba highways. Justice Estey during public
consultation meetings in Saskatchewan said that roads are the
biggest single issue facing this review.
The provincial transportation ministers agreed at their May
meeting on a proposal for federal participation in a national
highways program. Canada is the only OECD country without one.
They suggested that the federal government take the $300 million
it already spends on various highway programs, add $500 million
more from the debt reduction fuel tax, for a total of $800
million which the provinces would then match. This proposal was
endorsed by the premiers. As yet we do not know what happened to
it from the federal government.
A number of new developments have occurred. A number of recent
developments on the rail issue should be brought to the attention
of the House today. It concerns me because it makes it seem like
the tail is wagging the dog a bit.
The Sask wheat pool announced the closure of 235 elevators in
170 locations on September 15. Then the CPR announced six branch
line closures on September 17. Then the transport minister told
his provincial counterparts on September 25 that there can be no
official moratorium on rail line abandonments. But CN officials
told me months ago which elevators the wheat pool would be
closing. The wheat pool told CN that it would not tell me as a
member of parliament and it did not announce it for another four
months publicly. I wonder, did they tell the transport minister?
Did they tell Justice Estey?
To conclude, I believe that most participants in the grain
transportation system have confidence in Justice Estey's work.
That is why we should wait for the report. I worry that the
federal government is undermining his work though by letting the
railways get away with announcing closures now and that the wheat
pool is doing more or less the same thing.
I encourage the Minister of Transport to step up his efforts
with the railways, consider amendments to the transportation act
to give himself back some clout in this regard, and to keep
fighting the Minister of Finance so that we can get a national
highways program in our country.
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to respond to
the matters raised by the hon. member for Regina—Lumsden—Lake
Centre on June 9, 1998 regarding the discontinuance of operations
over railway lines.
Mr. Estey, who is studying all aspects of the grain industry in
western Canada, has been asked to recommend ways to ensure Canada
has the world's most efficient, viable and competitive grain
transportation and handling system to meet the ongoing and long
term expectations of our customers. Mr. Estey's recommendations
will not affect the economics of the operation of any prairie
branch lines. Those lines with low or declining traffic owing to
the closures of elevators by the grain companies will remain
classified as uneconomical.
However, the rail network rationalization process was designed
to encourage commercial purchases of low traffic density lines.
In the event that commercial transfers are not possible, it will
allow for provincial and municipal governments to preserve these
lines by purchasing them at net salvage value.
Rail network rationalization in Saskatchewan is to be driven by
the decisions of the grain companies. As grain companies divert
grain to newer or expanded loading facilities, country elevators
are closed and traffic disappears from these branch lines. The
province of Saskatchewan has not exercised its right under the
Canada Transportation Act to acquire these lines at net salvage
value.
In closing, I would emphasize that the rail rationalization
process has proven to be very successful. At the urging of the
Minister of Transportation, the railways have not proceeded with
the discontinuance of lines if community groups have expressed
interest in acquiring them. For every line discontinued six
lines have been transferred. Therefore, the government does—
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I am afraid I must
interrupt the parliamentary secretary, but his time has expired.
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[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Madam Speaker, last April,
I asked a question about employment insurance eligibility.
There is a problem in the maritime regions with all the cuts in
cod and crab fishing quotas and even a moratorium on cod
fishing. We have talked several times, here in the House of
Commons, about the hardship experienced by fish plant workers.
For the past three years, the federal government has had to send
money to the provinces for what is called the black hole, which
stretches from February to May.
People wonder if they will have to live like that for the rest
of their lives. Will fishers and fish plant workers have to
experience that kind of hardship for the rest of their lives?
Will all seasonal workers have to experience that kind of
hardship for the rest of their lives?
Who can live on $165 a week? Not the Minister of Finance, I can
guarantee that. Neither the Minister of Finance nor the Prime
Minister can live on $165 a week less taxes.
Today, in fact, I asked the Prime Minister a question. In
February 1993, when he was in opposition, he had taken the time
to send a letter to a Canadian.
In it, he said that when—he did not say if—he was elected in the
fall, he would make sure that something was done about EI, as
well as the GST and pay equity. But what kind of Prime Minister
do we have? What are the Liberals now doing for Canadians?
They are making find-sounding promises that they cannot keep.
The EI fund belongs to workers. It is not there to reduce
taxes. It belongs to workers and businesses. Is it not their
fund? Morally, the government has no right to touch the money.
It is disgraceful what is happening in our country, how the
government wants to grab the money in the EI fund so that it can
proudly tell us how it has balanced the budget. It has balanced
the budget and reduced the deficit to zero. How has it done
this? On the backs of workers.
It is not true that workers will put up with this. It is no
different from an insurance company. Suppose that today you
purchase an insurance policy for your car and that, ten years
from now, you have an accident. You have paid insurance for ten
years, and when you go to collect, you are told: Sorry, the
insurance company has used the money for something else.
This is an insurance policy that belongs to workers. It is time
the Minister of Human Resources Development stopped letting the
Minister of Finance push him around.
He should stand up to him, do the job he is supposed to do, and
assume his responsibilities.
It is unacceptable. Today the Prime Minister told me I did not
know what I was talking about. I would encourage the Prime
Minister to pay a visit to my riding. We would love to see him.
Let the Minister of Human Resources Development come to my
region, where winter finds 46% of workers on EI because there is
no work.
The government should assume its responsibilities and quick.
[English]
Ms. Bonnie Brown (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Human Resources Development, Lib.): Madam Speaker, we are all
concerned about unemployed workers in Atlantic Canada and we are
working to improve their prospects. In response to the member's
comments regarding access to EI, let me point out that nearly 80%
of unemployed workers in New Brunswick receive EI benefits
contrary to what the member continues to assert.
Second, I point out that the government is taking strong steps
to help unemployed fishers and fish plant workers in Atlantic
Canada. Rather than trying to set up temporary programs for
those affected by the collapse of the fishery we are trying to
give workers the tools and programs they need to get on with
their lives. This summer we announced $730 million in fishery
restructuring and adjustment measures for the Atlantic
groundfishery. These measures include early retirement, active
employment measures and economic development.
1850
We also have the transitional jobs fund which has been very
beneficial to Canadians living in areas of high unemployment. The
transitional jobs fund has already created over 31,000 jobs. In
New Brunswick alone we helped create over 2,300 jobs for New
Brunswickers and we expect to create more.
Simply providing passive income support through regular EI
benefits is not a sufficient response to the unemployment
problem. That is why we have worked with the provinces and
territories to develop labour market arrangements tailored to
local and regional needs. These arrangements are aimed at
providing real solutions for unemployed Canadians.
I wish to remind the member that we are transferring $228
million over three years to the Government of New Brunswick so
that New Brunswickers can access programs that better respond to
the particular labour market challenges of New Brunswick than was
possible in the past. In addition, many social assistance
recipients will have access to these programs.
This is just a highlight of the steps we have taken to help
Atlantic Canadians and Canadians in the member's own province,
and I can assure the House that we will continue in our efforts.
* * *
ENVIRONMENT
Hon. Charles Caccia (Davenport, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
last summer Canadians suffered from increased smog levels causing
breathing problems, increased hospital admissions and premature
deaths.
Smog results from the burning of oil and coal creating nitrogen
oxides and volatile organic compounds together with other
substances which lead to the formation of ground level ozone
which is then part of the smog phenomenon. Scientists identify
nitrogen oxides from the burning of fossil fuels not only because
it forms smog but also because it is a component of acid rain.
We have here a domestic problem as well as an international one
because at the Lennox plant in eastern Ontario, Ontario Hydro has
not installed the equipment needed to reduce nitrogen oxide
pollution. In addition new United States pollution regulations
designed to reduce smog could force Ontario Hydro to install
emissions abatement equipment if it wants to export power to the
United States.
Selective catalytic reduction technology is available to reduce
smog and Ontario Hydro should bite the bullet and install it.
From an international perspective one must remember that in 1991
Canada and the United States signed the air quality agreement
whereby each country is responsible for the effects of air
pollution it causes in the other country. Canada and the United
States also agreed to consult and deal with any existing
transboundary air pollution problems.
Therefore what we do in Canada to reduce nitrogen oxide is
desirable not only to improve air quality and prevent health
problems but also to make a case to the United States that it
should do its part in reducing air pollution. However the
reverse also applies.
Last week we learned of a significant announcement by the United
States Environmental Protection Agency that 22 eastern United
States will be required to cut nitrogen emissions by 28% starting
in the year 2003. Such steps could lead to a substantial
reduction in smog formation.
Will Canada reciprocate? This is why I am asking the Minister
of the Environment what progress has been made to ensure Ontario
makes every effort to minimize air pollution through the
reduction of nitrogen oxide emissions.
Unfortunately Ontario Hydro has apparently made the decision not
to outfit an oil burning power plant in eastern Ontario with the
next generation of pollution control devices which permit the
reduction of nitrogen oxides.
As I did on March 30, I would like to inquire of the
parliamentary secretary whether the Minister of the Environment
will ask her Ontario counterpart to intervene with Ontario Hydro
and see to it that its decision is reversed; that the nitrogen
oxide reducing equipment is installed at the Lennox plant, thus
permitting Canada to keep its international commitment; and to
reciprocate to the United States Environmental Protection Agency
initiative of issuing new tough standards for emission of
nitrogen oxides aimed at reducing smog levels as reported today
in a national newspaper.
1855
Ms. Paddy Torsney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of the
Environment, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I thank the member for
Davenport for raising this important issue which the Minister of
the Environment has taken seriously.
In September 1997 the federal Minister of the Environment
expressed her concerns regarding the Ontario Hydro situation in a
letter to her provincial counterpart, Norm Sterling. She
encouraged Mr. Sterling to ensure that Ontario Hydro took full
account of environmental issues as it developed its recovery
strategy.
As the House may know, Ontario has laid up some of its nuclear
power plants and is using more of its fossil fuel fire power
plants like the Lennox plant to ensure Ontario's energy demand is
met. The member will be pleased to know that Ontario Hydro has
indicated that it plans to modify two of the units at Lennox so
that they will operate on natural gas, which of course is a
cleaner fuel than oil.
In Mr. Sterling's response to the minister he ensured that they
would look at the mitigation of the environmental impacts of
Ontario Hydro's recovery plan and that it would be a major
consideration for the all-party select committee on Ontario Hydro
nuclear affairs formed by the provincial government as would the
investigation of the economic and environmental viability of
alternative energy supply options.
Our Minister of the Environment is prepared to discuss this
issue again with Mr. Sterling to further impress upon him the
need to ensure that the electricity supplied by Ontario Hydro is
generated in a manner that is both safe and environmentally sound
and to encourage him to consider actions to further reduce air
pollution in Ontario.
Mr. Sterling's ministry has placed a cap on nitrogen oxides and
sulphur dioxide emissions from Ontario Hydro facilities and the
company has indicated that it will continue to meet those
demands. Minister Sterling is also aware that further reductions
in those emissions will be necessary in order to address both
domestic and transboundary acid rain and smog issues.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The motion to adjourn
the House is now deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly, this
House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 2 p.m. pursuant to
Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 6.57 p.m.)