36th Parliament, 1st Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 116
CONTENTS
Friday, June 5, 1998
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
1000
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADIAN TRANSPORTATION ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION AND SAFETY
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | BILL S-2. Second reading
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul DeVillers |
1005
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Inky Mark |
1010
1015
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Michel Guimond |
1020
1025
1030
1035
1040
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Bev Desjarlais |
1045
1050
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Casey |
1055
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PENSION BENEFITS STANDARDS ACT, 1985
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill S-3. Report stage
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion for concurrence
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. John Manley |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Third reading
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. John Manley |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANCER
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. George Proud |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE SENATE
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
1100
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE OTTAWA RIVER
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. David Pratt |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | BROOKLIN SPRING FAIR
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Judi Longfield |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADIAN NURSES
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Mac Harb |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | DELGAMUUKW
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Philip Mayfield |
1105
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | NUNAVUT
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Nancy Karetak-Lindell |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | COLONEL F. G. NOSEWORTHY
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gerry Byrne |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CRTC
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | COMMUNITY ACCESS PROGRAM
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bernard Patry |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE ENVIRONMENT
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Louise Hardy |
1110
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HUMAN RIGHTS
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Réal Ménard |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HOUSE OF COMMONS
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Sheila Finestone |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | NORTHERN IRELAND
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE REFORM PARTY
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul DeVillers |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HUMAN RIGHTS
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Reynolds |
1115
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Hart |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Alfonso Gagliano |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Hart |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Alfonso Gagliano |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Hart |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | IMMIGRATION
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Reynolds |
1120
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lucienne Robillard |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Reynolds |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lucienne Robillard |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | TRANSITIONAL JOBS FUND
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Crête |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
1125
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Crête |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | LABOUR
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Alexa McDonough |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lucienne Robillard |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Alexa McDonough |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lucienne Robillard |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | FISHERIES
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. David Anderson |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
1130
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. David Anderson |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | IMMIGRATION
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lucienne Robillard |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lucienne Robillard |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ATLANTIC GROUNDFISH STRATEGY
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvan Bernier |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvan Bernier |
1135
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEPATITIS C
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Joseph Volpe |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Joseph Volpe |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MAPLE SYRUP INDUSTRY
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Hélène Alarie |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Hélène Alarie |
1140
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | IMMIGRATION
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jason Kenney |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jason Kenney |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ghislain Fournier |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | BOATING SAFETY
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gar Knutson |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. David Anderson |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | IMMIGRATION
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
1145
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lucienne Robillard |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lucienne Robillard |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADA CUSTOMS AND REVENUE AGENCY
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Blaikie |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Blaikie |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEPATITIS C
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Casey |
1150
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Joseph Volpe |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Casey |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Joseph Volpe |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GUN CONTROL
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Paddy Torsney |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Eleni Bakopanos |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | VICLAS
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chuck Cadman |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nick Discepola |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ghislain Fournier |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PAY EQUITY
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Bev Desjarlais |
1155
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Marcel Massé |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | VETERANS AFFAIRS
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Mark Muise |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Fred Mifflin |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CORRECTIONAL SERVICE CANADA
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nick Discepola |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ACCESS TO INFORMATION
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Derrek Konrad |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | SUDAN
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Monique Guay |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Don Boudria |
1200
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EMPLOYMENT
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Louise Hardy |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gerry Byrne |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | REPORT OF THE AUDITOR GENERAL
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | The Deputy Speaker |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PENSION BENEFITS STANDARDS ACT, 1985
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill S-3. Third reading
|
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jim Peterson |
1205
1210
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ken Epp |
1215
1220
1225
1230
1235
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Bev Desjarlais |
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![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Mark Muise |
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![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
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![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PORT-CARTIER PENITENTIARY
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![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ghislain Fournier |
![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion
|
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![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nick Discepola |
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![V](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Appendix
|
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 116
![](/web/20061116190958im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/crest2.gif)
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Friday, June 5, 1998
The House met at 10 a.m.
Prayers
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
1000
[Translation]
CANADIAN TRANSPORTATION ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION AND SAFETY
BOARD ACT
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (for the President of the Queen's Privy
Council and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs) moved that
Bill S-2, an act to amend the Canadian Transportation Accident
Investigation and Safety Board Act and to make a consequential
amendment to another Act, be read the second time and referred
to a committee.
Mr. Paul DeVillers (Parliamentary Secretary to President of the
Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to
speak today to Bill S-2, which amends the Canadian Transportation
Accident Investigation and Safety Board Act and makes
consequential amendments to another Act.
[English]
In 1989 parliament passed the CTAISB act and the act was
proclaimed in March 1990. Following a review that was required
by the statute and on the basis of the operating experience of
the Transport Safety Board, the TSB, over the past eight years
some legislative changes have been proposed to fine tune the
TSB's already good legislation.
1005
[Translation]
Many of the proposed changes are relatively minor, or are
administrative in nature. It is also proposed to improve the
Board's operating practices and its independence.
Thanks to the administrative changes proposed, a number of the
definitions used in the act will be improved, application of the
act as it applies to pipeline accidents and incidents will be
clarified, and it will be made clearer that departments may
continue to perform their duties while the Board is
investigating an accident.
As well, the TSB will be more readily able to respond to
provincial requests to carry out investigations for them, on a
cost recovery basis.
[English]
There are several proposed changes to put increased emphasis on
the identification of safety deficiencies through TSB
investigations.
[Translation]
In order to encourage people to provide the TSB with information
on safety, it is proposed that information provided to
investigators, by witnesses for instance, be better protected.
Civil proceedings may be taken against persons refusing to
provide information to TSB investigators.
[English]
A proposal will provide protection to representations made to
the board on its confidential draft reports by persons with a
direct interest who are asked to review them. Such protection
would be similar to that provided to witness statements.
[Translation]
The bill contains a number of provisions as well concerning
on board recorders, equipment known as black boxes, which can be
very useful in a complex investigation. The on board recordings,
which are already protected, will include the video recordings
of crew activities.
However, sounds heard in on board recordings that are not voice
recordings, such as motor noise, will no longer be protected.
Currently, on board recordings cannot be used in criminal or
disciplinary proceedings. One provision will apply the same
privilege to the recordings to limit their use in civil
proceedings.
[English]
The bill was considered in detail by the Senate and three
amendments were made. The first was to provide assurance that
there would be a minimum number of full time board members. The
second was to accommodate the orderly administration of judicial
and other proceedings started before these amendments become law.
We believe that both of those amendments improve the bill.
A third amendment was made to widen the meaning of on-board
recordings. That amendment leads to some serious problems for
the Department of Transport in its safety oversight role and we
requested that it be defeated. It has the unintended effect of
denying the employer and the regulator access to the information
necessary to ensuring the quality and safety of some elements of
air traffic service. Further, it makes it difficult to take
remedial measures when procedures require amendments. I point
out that the Canadian Air Traffic Control Association does not
object to the removal of this amendment.
[Translation]
Bill S-2 would help improve Canada's already exceptional
reputation in transport accident investigation. I ask all
members of the House to give the bill speedy passage.
[English]
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
am pleased to speak to Bill S-2, an act to amend the Canadian
Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board Act and to
make consequential amendments to another act, the Canadian Labour
Code.
1010
This bill is a reprint of Bill C-86 which was introduced during
the last parliament on March 6, 1997. It passed first reading,
but it was never considered by the transportation committee of
the House of Commons.
Before I speak to the bill I would like to say a few words
about the process that is being followed.
I am on the transportation committee and this is the first time
I have heard about this bill. Would it not make sense for the
transportation committee of the House to see the bill before it
is introduced for debate in the House of Commons? This is one
good reason for the House not to accept bills originating in the
Senate.
The transportation committee of the House of Commons is the
scrutineer of all legislation pertaining to transportation
matters in this country, not the Senate. At no time should the
transportation committee be left out of the process.
We on this side of the House support this bill in principle, but
we need an opportunity to clarify some technicalities in the
bill, hopefully at the committee level. We agree that there is a
need to modernize Canada's transportation safety investigation
regulations to align them with the recommendations made in a 1994
review commission report on the Canadian Transportation Accident
Investigation and Safety Board Act and the 1992 Moshansky
commission report on the Dryden air accident.
One of the goals of the review was to uncover cost efficiencies
as well as increase the flexibility of the board's operations.
Included in its recommendations allowing for part time board
members was that the ratio of the full and part time members
would be left up to the governor in council. That makes a lot of
sense. For example, should there be a large serious accident or
even a series of serious accidents it may seem necessary to the
governor in council to appoint five full time members. At other
times a full time board would not be necessary.
Is it necessary to have three full time members all the time?
Would it not make sense to leave it up to the government of the
day to hire on need?
The good news is that this amendment, unusual as it may be,
would not result in new programs and new expenditures. This is
indeed unusual in most government bills.
The amendments to repeal the Transportation Safety Board's
mandate to initiate and conduct special studies and special
investigations on matters pertaining to safety in transportation
puzzles me. This amendment appears to take away from the
Transportation Safety Board the authority to be independent and
to initiate investigations on its own.
This amendment would make the Transportation Safety Board very
reliant on directions from government on what it can and cannot
investigate.
Bill S-2 will also place a greater emphasis on the
identification of safety deficiencies in the transportation
sector. It will prohibit other federal departments, except the
Department of National Defence, from investigating a
transportation occurrence for the purpose of making findings as
to its causes and contributing factors. An investigation for any
other purpose is sanctioned.
Bill S-2 will strengthen the distinction between safety
investigations and court disciplinary proceedings. It will also
provide for greater protection of information provided to the
Transportation Safety Board. It will prohibit the use of
on-board recordings in legal proceedings and will generally
relieve investigators from the obligation to appear as witnesses
in any such proceedings.
1015
The Reform Party supports the bill. It is critical to the
process that the bill originated in the Senate and should pass
through the transport committee of the House of Commons.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to speak today to Bill S-2. For the
benefit of those watching, this bill was originally introduced
by the government on March 6, 1997 as Bill C-86 but died on the
order paper when the last federal election was called on April
26, 1997.
I would first off like to say that our party, the Bloc
Quebecois, will support the bill. I give the government the
option of proceeding to second and third reading this morning to
permit the bill to be passed quickly before the summer recess.
Even though elements of the bill are of interest to our party,
there is a procedure not often used in the House, which is
sometimes a problem, but which is permitted, namely, the
introduction of bills directly in the Senate. This is why this
bill is known as Bill S-2. So, exceptionally, the government
decided, with the co-operation of the Leader of the Government
in the Senate, to introduce this bill in the Senate first,
rather than in the House first.
Like most Quebeckers, we in the Bloc Quebecois are totally
opposed to the institution that is the Senate. We deplore the
fact that, showing a degree of contempt for democracy, the
government chose to introduce the bill before unelected
parliamentarians. Bear in mind that this archaic institution
from another era is made up of 104 individuals appointed by the
government of the day, who are currently almost equally divided
into two groups: a Liberal majority and a Conservative official
opposition.
To us, as a party, it is absolutely indecent for such a bill to
be initiated by unelected senators. The government should have
followed the usual procedure and introduced the bill here, in
the House of Commons, the house of the people, where we
represent democracy as it was clearly expressed in the June 2,
1997 general election.
Whether we get along or not, or have differences of opinion
about Canada's or Quebec's place on the international scene, we
are all democratically elected members of parliament.
There is no ambiguity about the political colour of the 44
members of the Bloc Quebecois: we are sovereignists. We have
said so before, during and every day we have a chance to do so
in this House since the election. We consider ourselves
democrats, to the same extent as our colleagues from the four
other parties represented in the House. This concludes the aside
I wanted to make regarding the unusual procedure used.
I hope the government will not make it a habit. We work hard in
this place. We have a number of bills to examine. Unfortunately,
it is rumoured that we will adjourn soon, earlier than scheduled
on the parliamentary calendar, because our legislative agenda is
so light.
I see the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration laughing
across the way. But it is true, there is not much to work on. We
are prepared to work hard, night and day and on weekends if
necessary, but we need a legislative agenda to work on.
I believe members of this House have shown that they can be
serious and work hard. There is no need to have bills introduced
directly in the Senate.
1020
I go back to the fact that the Canadian Transportation Accident
Investigation and Safety Board Act was passed in 1989 and
proclaimed in 1990. That legislation provided for a review
mechanism. The board that conducted the review tabled its report
in 1994, and the bill before us reflects these recommendations,
those of the Moshansky commission of inquiry, and also takes
into account various consultations.
I want to deal with three specific issues: the board's
independence, the role given to the provinces in this bill, and
the members of the board.
First, the bill does strengthen the board's independence, and
our party is very pleased with that. The board will deal at
arms' length with the minister. Its independence is also
encouraged by promoting non coercive methods to gain the
co-operation of witnesses and to better protect the confidential
nature of the information provided by witnesses, and by
providing greater protection in legal proceedings, following
statements made by witnesses.
The object of the board is to advance transportation safety by
conducting independent investigations, identifying safety
deficiencies, making recommendations and reporting publicly on
investigations. These responsibilities are stated in clause 7 of
Bill S-2.
The idea is not necessarily to find guilty parties. Rather, it
is to find out what happened, why and what conditions led to the
accident.
The board must play an inquisitive but not necessarily
accusatory role to find out what happened. It must find out the
facts to understand the incident and, of course, to write
reports, which is the important element in clause 7. This will
help to define prevention measures, so that such incidents do
not recur. The issue is transportation safety, it is about
saving human lives.
When we use a means of transportation in Canada or in Quebec, we
expect the company to be serious, reasonable and professional.
Since we naturally trust it, it could be tempted to try to
stretch increasingly limited financial resources a little
further by trying to keep costs down—by cutting a few corners, as
my mother would say, not bothering with every little detail—to
the detriment of safety.
The government therefore has the important legislative and
regulatory role of ensuring that Canadians and Quebeckers have
an efficient, effective and, above all, safe transportation
system.
No matter how many regulations are in place, accidents are still
going to happen. But they must be well documented; we must look
into them, make reports and recommendations so that, when these
accidents occur, we really know what went wrong. And I hope that
that will not be the end of it, that these recommendations will
not gather dust on library shelves and never be consulted again.
It has to have a certain documentary value if prevention is to
be served.
1025
The board's purpose is not to cast blame. Right now, the board
can press charges against individuals refusing to testify. The
issue is one of being compelled to testify. In future, it will
be possible to make an application to the Superior Court or the
Federal Court in order to require an individual to disclose
information or be found in contempt. Our party is pleased with
this procedure. It is faster, less costly and more effective.
We in the Bloc Quebecois are not narrow-minded. We are not in
the opposition for the sole purpose of criticizing and
complaining. When the government gets something right, we say
so. That is a sign of political maturity.
However, when it is wrong, I hope we have to right to sat so,
and I hope the government does not think it is perfect. For
instance, in clause 19, paragraph 15.1, the government is
proposing a faster, less expensive and more efficient process,
that we support, because we think it is a good thing.
On the independence issue, the bill confirms the exclusive
jurisdiction of the board over investigating the causes of a
transportation occurrence. That is stipulated in clause 14.4.
The wording is also changed to show that the board is not an
administrative or quasi-judicial tribunal.
I do not remember the exact wording and I do not have the time
to start looking for it in the bill, but we wanted to
decriminalize the whole process as it concerns the witnesses. If
memory serves, we no longer talk about briefs and witnesses, but
about people giving testimony.
That might sound like a technicality, but still it
decriminalizes the whole process and it indicates that the main
purpose of the board is to investigate the facts and to come up
with recommendations to once again improve safety.
With this bill, the government wanted to eliminate the
quasi-judicial aspect of the proceedings of the board. We support
this move.
My second remark concerns the role of the provinces. Since we
are still in a heavily centralized federal system, it is
unfortunate that the Canadian pact should provide for a strong
central government and provinces that are nearly powerless. This
is one problem. And, partly because of that, Quebec looks
forward to the day when it has full power and does not have to
come begging to the federal government all the time.
This is the system we have to live with for the time being, and
our party being a democratic party has said that it would keep
looking for ways to improve the Canadian federal system from
within.
The provinces will now be allowed to ask the board to
investigate accidents in transportation areas that are under
their own jurisdiction. Paragraphe 15.1 provides that provinces can
use the board.
I think that this provision could be interesting under the new
approach being used with railways in Canada and especially in
Quebec, where we have a number of railway lines. The process is
underway. This procedure could be used in the case of so-called
short line railroads. The board will be empowered to investigate
accidents in transportation areas under provincial jurisdiction.
The fact is that short line railroads are entirely under
provincial jurisdiction when they are not involved in
interprovincial operations.
1030
Of course, the costs of the investigation must then be recovered
from the provinces. Our party does hope the board will be
reasonable in assessing the costs to the provinces. I hope it
will not try to pass on to them the cost of the three inch thick
carpeting which I am sure covers the floor in the board's
offices. If, however, the costs incurred during the course of an
investigation on a means of transportation under provincial
jurisdiction are reasonable, I do not foresee any problem.
This bill encourages co-operation between the board's
investigators and provincial coroners as opposed to peace
officers.
My third and last point, before I conclude, deals with board
members.
The bill provides for the appointment of part time members and a
full board of no more than five members. We acknowledge that
this is bound to make the board more cost efficient.
However, this is another case of bouquets and brickbats. We must
raise an issue that the government really fails to understand or
refuses to accept. When the Liberals were in the opposition,
under the Conservatives, they took issue with the many partisan
appointments made by Prime Minister Mulroney, as can be seen in
Hansard for the years 1984 to 1993, at which point the Liberals
came to power. When they formed the opposition, the Liberals
kept on lambasting Prime Minister Mulroney and his Tory
government for their partisan appointments.
In 1993, the Liberals were voted in, but the practice was
maintained. Today, it is alive and well. Our party would have
hoped that with Bill S-2 the government would have shown an
openness and transparency it has not shown since 1993. We would
have liked to see an open appointment process under which
board's members would be chosen for their skills and expertise,
and not for being a member of the Liberal Party of Canada or a
candidate in a general election.
The Bloc Quebecois is well aware of how the government rewarded
the Liberal candidates who ran against us unsuccessfully in the
Quebec City area. I remember a lady by the name of Margo
Brousseau, who ran in 1993 for the Liberal Party in Louis-Hébert.
Shortly after her defeat to my former colleague, Philippe Paré,
Mrs. Brousseau was appointed to the board of directors of the
port of Quebec City.
We know also that in the last election Jacques Portelance, a
councillor in the municipality of Charlesbourg, was defeated by
my colleague from Charlesbourg. A few months ago, he was
appointed to the board of directors of the port of Quebec City.
I have nothing against Mr. Portelance. And my colleague from
Argenteuil—Papineau is telling me that Stéphane Hébert was also a
Liberal candidate who was rewarded by the government.
The government should have used this bill to say “Enough is
enough”, as Reform members like to say. It should have taken the
opportunity to provide for transparency in the appointment
process. But no, the partisan appointment process lives on.
1035
Everyone will find some benefit in my last comment on the issue.
The Liberals are continuing what the Conservatives were doing
and now, with the Conservatives in opposition, the few
Conservative members we see in this House, because they are
often missing in action, starting with their former leader—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Michel Guimond: These few Conservative members wax
indignant, criticizing the government's partisan appointments,
even though they did the exact same thing during their eight or
nine years in office.
This confirms what we in the Bloc said to Quebeckers in the last
election campaign in 1993: “The Liberals and the Conservatives
are exactly the same, except that they throw the ball at each
other”. When one party is in office, the other complains and
vice versa.
We in the Bloc Quebecois are of one mind in this regard: Since
we field candidates only in Quebec, we know that we were elected
to represent Quebec's interests. What we ask for is a
transparent process. We have no one to reward for contributing
to our election fund. We want the government to appoint the most
able people, regardless of gender, origin or academic
background.
In conclusion, this bill makes various small administrative
changes resulting from the experiences of the last few years. We
think it is normal to make such administrative changes and, as I
mentioned earlier, we believe the board plays an important and
essential role.
It is a good thing that there will be more emphasis on the
identification of safety violations. It is a good thing that the
board will use collaboration and rely on information provided in
all frankness and confidence to improve its investigative
method.
We are happy that, through this bill, the board will confirm
that it is determined to identify circumstances surrounding the
loss of lives in order to promote security, and not to determine
responsibility.
I think it is a clarification that needs to be made.
The issue is not to know who is responsible, but to try to
understand what happened, especially if lives were lost, and to
make sure that it does not happen again.
A country's transportation system depends essentially on the
degree of confidence. People will prefer one means of
transportation over another if they are confident, if they think
safety rules are observed and if they believe they are in an
environment that is safe and sound for themselves and their
families.
It is clear that problems will arise if people in Quebec and in
Canada lose confidence in one means of transportation or
another. We have an example of that right now. Air traffic
controllers are presently negotiating with Nav Canada. I do not
want to sound alarmist, but I hope that the safety of air
passengers is not threatened by these negotiations.
We know there are pressure tactics, we know there are obstacles.
Nav Canada—and this was confirmed by the Auditor General of
Canada, Mr. Desautels—was literally given the air traffic
control system in Canada. I think it would be in Nav Canada's
best interest to sit down at the bargaining table with its
employees, the air traffic controllers, and to find a way to
settle this collective agreement. It is crucial to the safety of
Canada's air transport system as well as to the confidence we
have in this system.
1040
I repeat what I said at the beginning of my speech: We support
Bill S-2 and our party will co-operate with the government should
it decide to proceed with second and third reading of this bill
this morning so it can be passed before the summer recess.
[English]
Ms. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker, back in
1989 the Conservative government originally introduced the safety
board act and we opposed it. It was fundamentally flawed then
and it is fundamentally flawed now.
The bill before us is to amend the act but does nothing to
address the deficiencies in the Transportation Safety Board. The
main idea underlying this act is supportable in principle. In
1989 this act brought a number of federal bodies responsible for
investigating transportation safety under the same roof.
If the Conservative government had wanted to, it could have
streamlined these operations, increased efficiency and saved
money for the taxpayers without sacrificing public. Instead this
act created a seriously deficient Transportation Safety Board, a
board that was and still is unable to fulfil its mandate to
safeguard the lives of Canadians.
Last year there were 2,159 train, marine, air and pipeline
accidents reported in Canada. This is just the number of reported
accidents and does not include any that went unreported. These
accidents resulted in 127 deaths. Yet the safety board's
nationwide investigative staff only consists of 135 people. These
135 people, field investigators, supervisors, laboratory
personnel, forensic investigators have to cover all the accidents
that occur in Canada. No wonder the safety board is plagued with
a backlog.
In its annual report the board states its intention to reduce
the amount of time it spends on each case so that it can reduce
its backlog. Think about that. They are going to spend less time
on each case so they can cut down the backlog. An investigation
into an accident is not something that can be rushed. It is a
matter of public safety and warrants a complete and thorough
investigation, not a rush job.
The government has left the Transportation Safety Board
understaffed and underfunded so much that the dedicated public
servants who work there have little choice but to cope as they
are doing. It should not be this way. This organization is
supposed to advance transportation safety in Canada. It is what
Canadians rely on to protect them and their environment from
accidents on the rails and waterways and in the the skies and the
pipelines of this country.
Canadians rely on the Transportation Safety Board but its
resources are spread too thin. It was a good idea to streamline
safety investigations under one roof, but for it to work we have
to give the board the resources it needs to fulfil such a broad
mandate. By nickeling and diming the Transportation Safety Board
the government is putting the health and safety of Canadians at
risk.
This is not something we can afford to cut corners on, but that
is just what is happening. Apparently the government would
rather save money than lives.
Fortunately the original act included a clause requiring a
review of the Transportation Safety Board. This review was
completed in 1994. By then we had a new government. The Liberals
had replaced the Conservatives.
The Liberals have had a chance to fix the problems with the
Transportation Safety Board to make a meaningful investment in
transportation safety but they have chosen not to. They are just
as indifferent to the health and safety of Canadians as their
Conservative predecessors.
Instead the Liberals have given us the bill before us today,
Bill S-2. Not only does this bill not deal with the deficiencies
of the Transportation Safety Board, it actually makes them worse.
At present the board consists of four members. One of the
amendments that the Liberals are proposing would allow them to
turn some of these appointments from full time into part time
positions. We are led to believe that this is a good thing
because they will be able to spread themselves a lot further. I
am sceptical. I am concerned that the board will have even fewer
working hours to deal with the many important issues it is
mandated to investigate. This is a big step in the wrong
direction.
There are a few good amendments in this bill, but on the whole
it makes a bad act even worse. One of the good amendments which
I will touch on briefly is the extension of the privacy
protections for those who give information to board
investigators.
As an experienced labour activist I know the kind of pressure
and intimidation employers are capable of using against workers.
If employees have information that is of use to the safety board
but may be damaging to their employer, they must be free to give
this information.
1045
However, they might not co-operate with investigators if they
are afraid for their jobs and families. Thus it is vitally
important that testimony given to the safety investigators be
held in the strictest of confidence. This is necessary so that
witnesses can be candid with investigators without fear of
retribution.
The extension of confidentiality in the investigative process is
a good amendment. It gives workers the freedom to co-operate
with safety board investigators and protects them. It is
surprising to see such an amendment in a Senate bill. That place
is hardly an institution known for protecting workers. It has
historically played the role of advocate for the privileged few.
Not that the privileged few have ever needed this protection with
the Liberal and the Conservatives in power.
Even John A. Macdonald acknowledged the other house's role as a
defender of the privileged when he said a larger qualification
should be necessary for membership of the upper house in order to
represent the principle of property. The rights of the minority
must be protected and the rich are always fewer in number than
the poor.
This amendment protecting workers is quite out of character for
that other house. In the context of the rest of the bill this one
amendment is an anomaly. The amendments to this bill that I most
strongly object to are the ones that reduce the independence and
public accountability of the board. These are much more in
character for that unelected and unaccountable institution.
Like the auditor general, this transportation safety board is
expected to be independent of political and outside influences.
That is the whole point. It is supposed to provide an
independent neutral perspective on safety issues in Canada.
Everyone acknowledges this. Yet the safety board act includes a
ridiculous provision allowing ministers and other interested
parties to review draft copies of the board's annual report and
submit comments on it.
This is a glaring contradiction. What this does is allow
parties with vested interests in the board's reports to attempt
to influence these reports to their advantage. Even if the board
members try their best to be neutral they will be undoubtedly
influenced to some degree by these outside submissions. This is
especially true in the case of submissions by ministers since the
board members are appointed by the government. Thus the safety
board is not independent like it should be. It is subject to
undue political influence.
Comprising the board's independence and neutrality in this way
is scandalous. It risks the health and safety of Canadians for
the sake of politics. The safety board must be free of outside
influences so it can focus exclusively on public safety.
Not only does this bill before us today not resolve the board's
independence problem, it makes the problem's magnitude
much worse. At least now when private interests comment to the
board about the draft reports these comments are not secret. At
least the public has a chance to scrutinize these comments and
see how the board is being influenced.
The bill would make these submissions secret. Why is this? Why
do the Liberals in the Senate not want the public to know what
people are saying to the transportation safety board? It looks
like they do not want Canadians to know what is going on at the
board. They are covering it with a shroud of secrecy. It is bad
enough that the current act allows private interests to influence
the safety board. Now the Liberals are trying to hide this from
the Canadian people. It is deceptive. It is patronizing. It is
anti-democratic. It shows how out of touch the Liberals are with
ordinary Canadians.
I am forced to wonder what the Liberals are trying to hide. If
these private submissions they are trying to hide were not unduly
influencing the safety board there would be no reason to hide
them. By placing this shroud over the safety board they are
shattering the illusion of independence.
Canadians expect the transportation safety board to be looking
out for them so that when they travel for business or for
pleasure they can feel safe. That is why they need a safety
board that is independent, neutral and adequately funded. It
must be adequately funded so it has the resources to properly
carry out its mandate. It must be independent so it can focus on
public safety without undue political or private influences
diverting it from its purpose. To deny the board these essential
necessities does a great disservice to Canadians.
As I indicated, there are beneficial aspects of the bill. We
will be in a corner today weighing the benefits being enacted
before the summer or delaying the bill with the hope of trying to
convince the Liberals of the changes in the fall. It is apparent
they have a majority and I am not convinced that delaying the
bill will result in any changes but just a stalling of the
inevitable.
1050
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr. Speaker,
I rise today to give my views on Bill S-2.
We have been provided with a book on this bill which we have
reviewed as best we could. We have contacted as many people as
we could, including officials of the transportation safety board
to find out their views on it. As far as we could tell there
seemed to be consensus for the passing of this bill.
However, the government wants to move it through the system and
avoid the transport committee. It will require unanimous consent
on that. I am going to withhold my consent on that because this
is the second major transportation bill to go through the
government. As members of the transportation committee we have
been denied access to witnesses.
In the case of Bill C-9, a much more profound bill with more
impact, I moved a motion to have witnesses heard but I was
overruled by the committee so we never heard witnesses opposed to
Bill C-9. There is the same effort with Bill S-2 to avoid
allowing witnesses to make presentations. We are only allowed to
hear the people in support of the bill while we are not allowed
to hear the people opposed to it.
When Bill C-9 went to Senate after we passed it in the House,
the senators had witnesses in their senate committee, and many
people opposed it. We were denied access to those presentations.
I feel very strongly that we were sent here to serve the people.
We were put on the transport committee to help make decisions and
proper amendments. If we are not allowed to hear both sides of
the story but are only allowed to hear the government side, we
are not equipped or able to make intelligent decisions. I will be
opposing unanimous consent on this.
I am really sorry with Bill C-9 that I did not push harder for
witnesses to be heard. I did make the motion and I was overruled
but I feel now that I should have done more. I am not going to
make that mistake again. I want to hear both sides of the story,
not just one.
In that effort we contacted officials of the transportation
safety board. They are supportive of this bill. We asked them
several months ago and then asked them again yesterday. They
feel there are some positive changes here which they want to see
go ahead. However, we have not heard the other side of the story
from the people affected, and a lot of people will be affected by
this bill.
Another reason to send it to committee and to call witnesses is
that the government strangely enough moved an amendment in the
bill that was passed but it now wants to withdraw that amendment.
I do not have a satisfactory explanation of what that was all
about. Why did the government move the amendment in the first
place? Who was affected by it? I think air traffic controllers,
perhaps pilots and a lot of people would be affected by that
amendment. Now the government wants the amendment withdrawn with
no explanation, no hearings and no witnesses. That is another
reason to make this bill go to committee and to hear all sides of
the story.
If it is a good bill it will pass committee. I pledge my total
support to see that it goes through as quickly as possible but I
do want it to go to committee. If we allow this bill to go
through without first going through committee and hearing
witnesses, it will be the second transport bill this happens to.
It will be the same as Bill C-9 where we were not allowed to hear
from witnesses.
Bill C-9 was a much more profound bill with more impact. A lot
of people were against it and we were not allowed to hear from
any of them. The only people we heard from are those we reached
out to and contacted ourselves. We did not have an open
committee or testimony from people who were affected. That same
thing will happen with Bill S-2 if we allow it go through via the
speedy process which is going through the House without going to
committee. We will be voting against unanimous approval to
expedite this bill through the system.
1055
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: Is the House ready for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Deputy Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the
motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Deputy Speaker: All those in favour will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Deputy Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Deputy Speaker: In my opinion the yeas have it.
Some hon. members: On division.
The Deputy Speaker: I declare the motion carried on division.
The bill is therefore referred to the Standing Committee on
Transport.
(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred
to a committee)
* * *
[English]
PENSION BENEFITS STANDARDS ACT, 1985
The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill S-3, an act to
amend the Pension Benefits Standards Act, 1985 and the Office of
the Superintendent of Financial Institutions Act, as reported
(without amendment) from the committee.
The Deputy Speaker: The member in whose name the motions
on the notice paper stand is not here to move them. Therefore I
will proceed to put the question on the report stage of this
bill.
Ms. Bev Desjarlais: Mr. Speaker, I would like the
opportunity to speak on Bill S-3.
The Deputy Speaker: I am sorry, there is nothing to speak
on at the moment. We are on report stage. There are amendments
proposed that cannot be put to the House because no one is here
to move them. I intend to put the question on concurrence at
report stage, which is not a debatable motion.
Hon. John Manley (for the Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.) moved that the bill be
concurred in.
The Deputy Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to
adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
An hon. member: On division.
(Motion agreed to)
Mr. Bill Blaikie: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I am not sure exactly what happened but it was our
intention to move and to speak to amendments at report stage.
That did not happen and you moved very quickly to concurrence.
The member for Churchill was intending to speak to the motion
for concurrence. Things are moving ahead very rapidly and
without the full consent of the House.
The Deputy Speaker: There is not a matter of consent. The
motion for concurrence is not a debatable motion. I was required
by the rules to put the motion to the House. I did so. The
motion is put and carried.
The question is when will the bill be read the third time.
Since it can be read now, if that is the desire of the House, we
will deal with it now. The hon. member for Churchill will have
an opportunity to speak on the bill at third reading.
When shall the bill be read the third time? By leave, now?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Hon. John Manley (for the Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.) moved that the bill be read
the third time and passed.
The Deputy Speaker: We are now on debate at third
reading, but it being 10.58 a.m., the first speaker can wait
until after question period.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
CANCER
Mr. George Proud (Hillsborough, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
remind the House that Sunday, June 7 is national cancer survivors
day in Canada.
As my colleagues may be aware, one in three Canadians will be
diagnosed this year. Sometimes it seems like that rate is even
higher in P.E.I. I have too often seen the intense suffering
cancer inflicts on its victims but today, thanks to improved
detection methods, more available information and enhanced
methods of treatment, more than half of all people with cancer
will survive the disease.
The Canadian Cancer Society is planning activities to elevate
the importance and profile of this day throughout Canada. I
encourage everyone to celebrate life, honour our survivors and
recognize the important role of others in the lives of survivors.
I commend the Canadian Cancer Society for its continuing work in
helping combat cancer and raise public awareness of this
devastating disease.
* * *
THE SENATE
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the Senate is not accountable because senators are not elected.
1100
Eighty-four percent of British Columbians want elected senators.
Provincial representation in the Senate is unequal and we know
that the Senate is not effective.
The other day the Prime Minister said that the Senate abides by
its own rules and manages itself. The Prime Minister only knows
who to appoint to the Senate and then he forgets how to manage
them. He said he would reform the Senate, but he is not doing
that.
We need to change the Senate. Otherwise its downward slide will
continue. The Prime Minister is letting the Senate continue its
downward slide. Shame on the Prime Minister for talking the
talk, but not walking the walk. Shame on the government for
doing nothing to reform the Senate. Shame on the Liberals for
allowing the Senate to continue its downward slide.
* * *
THE OTTAWA RIVER
Mr. David Pratt (Nepean—Carleton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
for thousands of years the Ottawa River was the primary
transportation route to the Canadian interior. Long before the
arrival of the white man, our aboriginal people understood its
importance. In fact, the Algonquins controlled the river for
many years and exacted tolls from those using it. It is likely
that Etienne Brûlé was the first European to travel the river in
1610, followed by Samuel de Champlain in 1613.
Today a group of individuals no less visionary than our
aboriginal peoples and the early explorers is seeking to open up
the Ottawa River to navigation from Lake Temiskaming to the St.
Lawrence. Two phases which open the upper reaches of the river
have already been completed by the Ottawa River Navigable
Waterway Corporation. The final phase between the Chaudière
Falls and Lac Deschênes is the only stretch of the river that
remains to be opened.
There is tremendous potential for jobs and economic development
along the Ottawa River. I would like to urge the federal
government to work with this non-profit corporation to initiate a
feasibility study to determine the economic costs and benefits of
constructing a bypass system or a lock system to permit the
navigation of small craft on the Ottawa River.
* * *
BROOKLIN SPRING FAIR
Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the Brooklin Spring Fair, initiated in 1911 and held the first
weekend in June, holds very special significance for the historic
village of Brooklin in my riding.
Traditional events that are held over four days form the
backbone of the fair. On Thursday exhibits are placed in the
arena to be judged in the home craft section. Main events
include a children's pony show, opening ceremonies and the
ambassador of the fair competition. Friday unleashes the
excitement of the midway for children's day, followed by the roar
of the truck and tractor pull. Saturday features a parade, horse
shows, livestock competitions and an action packed demolition
derby. The final day of the fair incorporates the sheep show,
car show and harness horse racing.
The remarkable success and longevity of the Brooklin Spring Fair
can be attributed to the effort and dedication of many
individuals. The variety of the events displayed at the fair
ensures a bright future for one of Canada's oldest fairs.
* * *
CANADIAN NURSES
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Canadians have a great deal to offer the world. Just look at the
Canadian Nurses Association and the excellent work it is doing in
developing countries.
Following CIDA's mandate to strengthen civil society
organizations and satisfy basic needs, Canadian nurses have
provided assistance to 25 developing countries over the past 15
years. Projects range from promoting the professional
development of nurses to encouraging nurses to take a leadership
role in the primary health care of the community.
I would like to congratulate Jane MacDonald, a health educator
from the Centretown Community Health Centre, for her work in
Ecuador. As well, I would like to congratulate Janet Mann and
Anne-Marie Lanctôt for their dedication to strengthening the role
of nurses in Ethiopia.
I join with my colleagues to thank every Canadian who has
volunteered their time and expertise in helping those in need
around the world. Congratulations on a job well done.
* * *
DELGAMUUKW
Mr. Philip Mayfield (Cariboo—Chilcotin, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the Supreme Court of Canada's Delgamuukw decision will
have a long lasting and far-reaching impact on British Columbia.
Section 13 of the British Columbia terms of union laid out that
the federal government was responsible for “The charge of
Indians”. In 1924 the federal government, through an
order in council, stated that the province had successfully
completed all the requirements under this section.
One constitutional expert goes to the very heart of Delgamuukw
by saying “This court decision goes to the very question of
B.C.'s sovereignty and the right of its government to conduct its
publics affairs”. With the provincial government's hands tied
and the federal government's unwillingness to take
responsibility, combined with the Supreme Court of Canada's
activist approach, a solution does not appear to be close at
hand.
British Columbians must insist that the federal government
accept its legal responsibility and the cost of reaching a
permanent solution with all B.C. aboriginal people and, if
necessary, offer a legislated solution to the legal mess that the
Supreme Court has thrown us into.
* * *
1105
NUNAVUT
Mrs. Nancy Karetak-Lindell (Nunavut, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
today's article in the Globe and Mail highlights the dire
situation in Nunavut. All the statistics are true. We do have
uncommonly high rates of substance abuse, high rates of
unemployment and, yes, high rates of suicide.
However, on Tuesday this House voted with a resounding majority
to take the first steps to rectify these problems. Bill C-39 is
part of a new beginning in Nunavut. It is going to be part of
the solution. The answer lies with the people of Nunavut who
will form their new government and begin to reshape their lives.
What we have before us is an opportunity, an opportunity we can
be optimistic or pessimistic about. I choose to be optimistic.
We are asking fellow Canadians to give us a chance to get to the
batter's mound and not strike us out before we even get there.
* * *
COLONEL F. G. NOSEWORTHY
Mr. Gerry Byrne (Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I rise in the House this morning to congratulate a
native of Corner Brook, Newfoundland, a very honourable and
noteworthy individual, Colonel F. G. Noseworthy, who is a member
of my riding of Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte.
Mr. Noseworthy received the Order of Military Merit at an
investiture ceremony that was presided over by Governor General
Roméo LeBlanc on May 29, 1998.
The Order of Military Merit was created over 35 years ago to
recognize meritorious service and devotion to duty by members of
the Canadian forces. Mr. Noseworthy has been with the military
engineering branch of the Canadian forces for over 29 years. It
is my pleasure to congratulate him on such a great
accomplishment.
Mr. Noseworthy was cited for his hard work. He excelled as a
staff planner at both national and international levels,
including as chief of staff of the 12 nation European community
monitoring mission.
His competence and professionalism have not only been noted,
they have now been recognized by such a prestigious award.
Congratulations to Mr. Noseworthy.
* * *
CRTC
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
CRTC continues to make decisions which go against the will of
Canadians.
The most recent ruling of the CRTC calls for an increase in
Canadian content on Canada's radio stations, despite the fact
that both the Canadian people and the radio industry oppose any
such changes. Poll after poll indicates that Canadians are happy
with 20% to 25% Canadian content on radio.
What did the CRTC decide to do? It raised the level to 35%,
despite the fact that broadcasters are already having a hard time
finding Canadian programming.
I had the opportunity to question the chair of the CRTC on this
issue. Her answers were vague and hidden behind cultural
objectives that the Liberals want to force upon the Canadian
people.
The bottom line is that Canadians are masters of their own homes
and are quite capable of making their own decisions. Therefore,
I call upon the CRTC to reconsider its decision.
* * *
[Translation]
COMMUNITY ACCESS PROGRAM
Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on
Monday, June 1, I was pleased to represent the hon. Minister of
Industry at the opening of “L'@venue”, a pilot project of the
community access program in an urban setting, in Montreal.
There were more than 150 people in attendance, including
representatives from the media, municipal, provincial and
federal governments, as well as key partners from the private
sector, like Videotron and the Bank of Montreal.
I talked about the role of the federal government in the
development of the information highway, through the community
access program.
This pilot project is important, not only because it allows the
community to profit from the socio-economic advantages of the
knowledge-based economy, but also because disadvantaged young
Montrealers will be able to acquire profitable skills and
experience, and thereby improve their future job opportunities.
I would like to congratulate all the partners in this important
project and to offer my best wishes of success to all CAP sites
in Canada.
* * *
[English]
THE ENVIRONMENT
Ms. Louise Hardy (Yukon, NDP): Mr. Speaker, there is a
long and sad history of environmental neglect in the north. For
67 years the Dene people of Daline have suffered and died because
of radioactive contamination on their traditional lands and they
need help now.
The Marwell tar pit in Whitehorse has been leaking toxic wastes
into the environment for over 50 years. A man was even trapped
and died there.
The federal government collects money for land reclamation and
reforestation, yet no money goes back.
1110
It takes 200 to 700 years to grow a tree in the north. The
government approved the cut of over 200,000 hectares and only
4,000 have been replanted, and that is because of the efforts of
students in the north.
There are abandoned military sites all over the north and if the
departments of defence, Indian and northern affairs and the
environment value the people and the land of the north this would
never have happened. At the very least it would have been
cleaned up.
If the Minister of Finance is serious about the environment
there is ample opportunity to prove it.
* * *
[Translation]
HUMAN RIGHTS
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker, EGALE,
a group promoting equality for gays, lesbians and bisexuals, is
undertaking a survey on the condition of homosexuals among over
40,000 Canadians.
No one can dispute that lesbians, gays and bisexuals live unique
experiences and share particular problems. This survey is the
first systematic attempt to collect scientific data that should
give us a better knowledge of these communities across the
country.
Through this survey, participants are being asked to take action
for equality, tolerance, openmindedness and mutual respect.
To conduct the survey, EGALE obtained the co-operation of the
Department of Justice and the Canadian Human Rights Commission
and two of is prominent analysts, Stephen Samis and Sandra
Goundry.
I wish them well and at the same time I invite Canadians to
contribute to the success of this operation.
* * *
[English]
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Hon. Sheila Finestone (Mount Royal, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
as we celebrate the 50th anniversaries of both the United Nations
Declaration of Human Rights and the founding of the State of
Israel I would like to thank the government House leader and the
House leaders of all parties for taking a principled stand on the
issue of the holocaust denial.
Yesterday all parties in the House of Commons took this
important stance against Mr. Ernst Zundel. He is an active and
vicious anti-Semite, as well as one of the world's largest
publishers of anti-Semitic and neo-Nazi publications.
In denying him admittance to the precincts of the House of
Commons this House's unanimous decision has paid respect to those
who perished in acts too horrible to describe, as well as to
those who are living witnesses to the atrocities of the
holocaust.
We must continue to counter this hateful, repugnant revision of
history and remember the inhumanity of the holocaust. Mr. Zundel
and his kind do not reflect Canada, its people or its values.
* * *
NORTHERN IRELAND
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, on good Friday, May 22 of this year, the people of
both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland voted
overwhelmingly in support of a peace accord.
We in this House should salute this spirit of compromise. It
clearly prevailed in the hearts and minds of the people of
Northern Ireland, be they Protestant or Catholic. They managed
to set aside centuries of bloody conflict and endeavoured to
reconcile their differences through the fine art of compromise.
Once referred to as a “terrible beauty”, Northern Ireland is
now well poised to take its rightful place in the international
community, free from the sectarian hatred and division that has
so pervaded the past 30 years of trouble.
We in this House, regardless of political affiliation, should
follow this lesson of historic agreement: that the politics of
division and exclusion is destructive and that the politics of
reconciliation is the most effective means to building bridges
across divided communities.
Indeed, examples of what the Irish poet Yeats termed the
“indomitable Irishry” can be found in the contributions of
Irish immigrants to Canada like Samuel McFall of Carrickfergus
and Damian Curley of Galway.
Let us hope and pray that the honourable compromise reached in
Northern Ireland holds true and that peace “comes dropping”
quickly and remains victorious.
* * *
THE REFORM PARTY
Mr. Paul DeVillers (Simcoe North, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Canadians will savour the irony of the Reform Party's efforts to
form an alliance with the only federal political party that seeks
to separate Quebec from the rest of Canada, and this coming from
the party that attempted to make it a point of honour to defend
the Canadian flag in the House of Commons.
Canadians deplore the politically motivated efforts at
rapprochement initiated by the Reform Party. This rapprochement
will fool no one. Canadians will see it for what it is, a
disguised attempt by Reform to increase its political base
outside of western Canada.
[Translation]
Similarly, Canadians will not be fooled by the purely political
manoeuvres of the Parti Quebecois and the Bloc Quebecois in .
These parties know very well that they cannot hope to sell the
idea of a separate Quebec without promising political and
economic partnership with the rest of Canada.
* * *
[English]
HUMAN RIGHTS
Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, yesterday the member for Brampton West—Mississauga
admonished me, my party and the premier of Ontario for our
concern for the safety and human rights of Canadians.
1115
We have misgivings regarding the granting of refugee status to
Canada of eight individuals, including a hijacker, currently held
in an Israeli jail.
What the member and chair of the subcommittee on human rights
neglected to tell the House is that these eight pillars of virtue
have been turned down by every other country where they have
sought refugee status. What she neglected to tell us is that
these eight have been termed a national security risk to the
state of Israel.
Charity begins at home and so do human rights and the right to
feel safe. Do these eight inspire in anyone a feeling of safety
and security for Canadians?
Yesterday I reflected on a picture in my office of Nelson
Mandela and me. I will be writing Mr. Mandela a letter of
apology in the event that he hears that the member for Brampton
West—Mississauga compared him to the group of eight in an
Israeli jail. I hope the member will apologize personally to the
premier of Ontario for her remarks.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan—Coquihalla, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday the government admitted that it fudged the procurement
rules by awarding a half billion dollar contract to Frontec
Corporation without allowing Frontec's competitors to bid.
When this was revealed the government's response was it froze
the deal with Frontec Corporation. The official opposition has
been asking about the $2.85 billion sole source contract to
Bombardier.
When will the Minister of Public Works and Government Services
freeze that contract as well in favour of an open bidding
process?
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Public Works and
Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I quote the deputy
leader of the Reform Party, the member for Edmonton North, who
said in the House on May 6, 1996: “On May 2 I attended a supper
in Grand Centre, Alberta to welcome a NATO delegation. They are
studying the possibility of awarding a 20 year contract to Canada
as NATO's flight training location. The other bidder is Texas
and we are convinced that our program could beat it out by a
country mile”. Maybe the member should speak to the deputy
leader.
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan—Coquihalla, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
Reformers believe that Canadian companies can bid in an open
competitive process and win those bids. This government just
awarded the largest service contract in Canadian history, a $2.85
billion contract to Bombardier. Here are the facts.
NATO was flexible on the time lines. The tendering process was
ignored and the 15 day guidelines for publishing of sole source
contracts were nixed by this cabinet. Will the Minister of
Public Works and Government Services shut down the Bombardier
contract just like he did Frontec? Why the double standard?
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Public Works and
Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the member as usual
is confused on the facts. The contract with Frontec expires
March 31, 2000. Therefore I think there is some time before we
make that decision to renew that contract and we will take the
necessary steps to make sure that every firm has the possibility
to make its representation and proposal.
On NATO training, Frontec said the political side is that we
kept the Reform Party informed on this for three and a half
years.
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan—Coquihalla, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
it is obvious it is the minister who is confused on this issue.
Reformers have been asking for information from the government
for seven months now.
Canadians want an open, transparent and competitive bidding
process. The Liberal government is maintaining a non-competitive
bidding process. The government is risking the loss of Canadian
businesses.
Canadian taxpayers might have to put up with this but foreign
governments do not. Will the Minister of Public Works and
Government Services freeze the Bombardier contract and allow,
like Canadians want, open, transparent and competitive bidding?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, there was a press release, a public announcement made in
1996 that the government in light of the Bombardier consortium
proposal was going to NATO to ask it to give Canada the right to
train NATO pilots. It was public in 1996 and yet no other
companies came forward in spite of the public information.
Speaking of public information, the deputy leader of the Reform
Party knew all about this in 1996 and she liked the deal. If it
was good then, it is good now.
* * *
IMMIGRATION
Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Citizenship and
Immigration.
Yesterday there was an unprecedented and bizarre decision.
The supreme court overturned a refugee board decision and ruled
that a convicted drug dealer cannot be denied a refugee hearing.
A dissenting judge said this individual jeopardized the lives,
health and welfare of many Canadians.
1120
Does the immigration minister agree with this ruling and if not,
what is she going to do about it?
[Translation]
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (Minister of Citizenship and
Immigration, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, members must understand that we
are talking about a Supreme Court ruling. I hope that the
member opposite is not asking me to flout the law of Canada.
That said, the ruling is a very recent one. We are analyzing
its impact, but there are other avenues available to us in the
Immigration Act that would also allow us to take action, and
that is what we are examining.
[English]
Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, a decision of this magnitude has repercussions
around the world and undoubtedly leaves every criminal with
intent to use Canada as a safe haven with a notion that we are
very easy to access.
Will the minister of immigration amend legislation immediately
so that this bad decision for Canada can be overturned? Even two
of the judges say it is a terrible decision for Canada. When
will the minister take action so this drug dealer can be kicked
out of Canada like he should be?
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (Minister of Citizenship and
Immigration, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I hope the member is not
recommending that we not follow the rule of law in this country.
We will respect the rule of law in the legislation that we have.
We have other tools in the Immigration Act right now. I am
thinking about the certificate for danger of the public. When we
tabled that legislation some years ago the Reform Party voted
against that. We will take our responsibility here.
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.
If I correctly understood what the minister was saying about his
EI reform, unemployed workers should be thanking him, because
60% of them are no longer eligible, and young people should be
ecstatic because they are all paying premiums, but three-quarters
of them are not receiving benefits.
If the minister's reform is as great as he would have us
believe, how does he explain that hundreds of people are
demonstrating against it in front of his Montreal office as we
speak?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the EI reform was absolutely
essential. The EI system we had in Canada had not changed in 25
years and did not serve the public's interests well. It had to
be modernized and adapted to contemporary reality.
I know that the Bloc Quebecois members love passive measures and
anything to do with the past. They are always pushing passive
income support, when what people are calling for is a dynamic
labour market and help entering it.
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
minister has carried out his reform so well that, according to
the figures, there are now 1.3 million unemployed workers in
Canada.
If his reform is so wonderful, how does he ignore the fact that
it has meant that 750,000 unemployed workers are not eligible
for any benefits? We are not complete imbeciles.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, what the member has failed to
point out is that the number of jobs in Canada has jumped by 1.2
million since October 1993 because of a healthy economy, because
we have put our fiscal house back in order, because we now have
active measures to help workers back into the job market,
because of 30,000 such jobs, and because of the transitional
jobs fund in regions where unemployment was too high.
* * *
TRANSITIONAL JOBS FUND
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, the Quebec National Assembly, the premiers of
Ontario, Alberta, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, the central
labour bodies as well as groups of employers are unanimous:
employment insurance is not managed responsibly.
What else will it take to make the minister see the light and
make the necessary changes?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on the contrary I think that if
there is a government in this country that has acted responsibly
over the past decades it is the one led by the current Prime
Minister.
1125
Our government is acting responsibly by making difficult and
courageous decisions, when necessary, in order to help people
break out of the cycle of dependency the Bloc Quebecois wants to
keep them in.
I can assure you that we are doing them a service by making
available to them tools far more useful than a cheque every two
weeks, which is what they would be condemned to live on for
years to come.
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, the minister forgot to mention that active
measures are not his responsibility. In most cases, they are now
the provinces' responsibility.
What he is responsible for is employment insurance and the
transitional jobs fund. And he has failed on both counts.
How can the minister talk about helping workers with the
transitional jobs fund when, besides the fact that the fund has
run dry, this measly $300 million over three years represents 40
times less than what he has cut from the unemployed alone?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the funds in the transitional
jobs fund will be spent over the coming months, up until March
31, 1999, as we have committed to do.
I welcome this opportunity the hon. member for
Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques has given me to
say that, at the heart of the employment insurance reform, there
is the new Canada-Quebec agreement, a historic agreement on
manpower.
It is part of this reform that will see $2.7 billion
transferred to the Quebec government so it can implement active
measures for unemployed workers and welfare recipients in
Quebec, who will then have a better chance of re-entering the
workforce.
* * *
[English]
LABOUR
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, just as
the offshore petroleum boom in Atlantic Canada is taking off, the
federal government snatches away long awaited and long promised
jobs for Canadian workers. Thousands of experienced Canadians
are more than ready to take up the challenge of seismic offshore
work but the government is once again prepared to put the demands
of foreign vessel owners for cheap labour ahead of Canadian
interest.
What does this government have against Canadian workers?
[Translation]
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (Minister of Citizenship and
Immigration, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have nothing against
Canadian workers. On the contrary, our government is working to
find them jobs.
That said, we have changed nothing in the immigration
legislation or regulations. A question has arisen just recently
in Nova Scotia about the interpretation of the policy or
practice in use there. We are now looking at the overall
picture.
We are going to do everything necessary to see that Canadians
have work.
[English]
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, that
does not sound like standing up for Canadian workers to me.
For decades federal and provincial governments have dangled the
promise of offshore jobs over the heads of unemployed Atlantic
Canadians. Now the government is fudging and fidgeting around
about interpretations that may do those Canadian workers out of
those jobs.
Again, is the minister prepared to stand up for Canadian
workers?
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (Minister of Citizenship and
Immigration, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I stand up for Canadian
workers. I also stand up to respect the legislation in this
country.
Perhaps the member does not know but the practice was quite
different in Newfoundland. That is why we had that problem. A
private company challenged the department to go to court because
the practices were different in two provinces.
It is the role of the federal government to have a national
policy. That is why we will revise it.
* * *
FISHERIES
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, three weeks ago the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans
slammed the door on Nova Scotia fisheries workers by not granting
a single tonne of the 28,000 northern shrimp quota to any of the
four Nova Scotia community proposals. According to scientific
advice from DFO, the minister is free to allocate an additional
7,000 tonnes of shrimp quota.
In light of his decision to completely ignore Nova Scotian
needs, will the minister consider granting the remaining shrimp
quota to the four Nova Scotia proposals?
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is simply ill informed.
The quota allocation dealt with two sets of components of the
fleet. On the first dealing with the seventeen major license
holders, two and a half of the licenses are held by Nova Scotian
companies.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, several weeks ago we heard the minister say that
fish come first.
He should remember that people in communities come first,
communities like Canso, Mulgrave, Lismore and Arichat. Their
future depends on a reasonable share of the scientifically viable
shrimp quotas.
1130
The quota increase would allow for an allotment to these Nova
Scotia proposals. Will the minister have the courage to come to
Nova Scotia and explain to these individuals involved why his
shrimp quotas have been denied to their communities?
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the ignorance of the member displayed in
the preamble of his first question extends into his second. He
simply does not understand or he is not willing to admit that a
substantial portion of that shrimp quota is going to Nova Scotia
companies.
With respect to the second aspect of his remarks that fish come
first, I simply ask him, can we have fishermen if we do not have
fish? The answer is no. Can we have fishing communities if we
do not have fish? The answer is no. I suggest it is time he and
his party started to recognize the importance of conservation in
making sure we have that fish resource.
* * *
IMMIGRATION
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the minister of immigration.
As an immigrant to this country I know that coming to this
country is a privilege that should not be given out lightly.
Law-abiding immigrants and genuine refugees are welcome but
today's supreme court ruling is an open invitation to criminals
to come to our country. Can the minister not see that it is
wrong to let drug dealers into our country? The minister can
change this decision. She does not have to study it. Will the
minister personally intervene to kick out this convicted dealer,
yes or no?
[Translation]
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (Minister of Citizenship and
Immigration, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have already replied to that
question, but I will do so again.
The Supreme Court handed down its ruling yesterday, and we are
looking at the impact.
That having been said, I cannot discuss the situation of the
individual concerned in detail, but there are other avenues open
to us under the legislation for intervening and ensuring that
this kind of individual is never allowed to stay in Canada.
[English]
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, who
makes the laws in this country, parliament or the supreme court?
This is another decision in which the supreme court is reading
into the law. You have the authority. You have the right to do
it. You have the law to do it. Are drug dealers going to take
precedence over genuine refugees? When will you intervene and
kick—
The Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. member will address
his remarks to the Chair and not to the minister. The hon.
Minister of Citizenship and Immigration.
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (Minister of Citizenship and
Immigration, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this is always a problem
with the Reform Party. As an immigration matter there are very
complex issues here. We have to think twice before making
decisions when it affects the lives of individuals. It is clear
that we will look at it very closely. We have other tools in the
legislation for acting in that case.
* * *
[Translation]
ATLANTIC GROUNDFISH STRATEGY
Mr. Yvan Bernier (Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok, B.Q):
Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources
Development.
Yesterday, the minister stated that he is preparing to make
public the measures to assist fishers after the expiry of TAGS.
He also said “we are working in partnership with the provinces
in an effort to address the situation”.
What answer does the minister have for Minister Beaton Tulk of
Newfoundland, who last Wednesday stated that the federal
government had gone there to announce its intentions, not to
consult him? Is this what the minister means by partnership?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Absolutely not, Mr. Speaker. On the
contrary, I can say that we did not make an offer or a proposal.
The people we sent out went precisely to consult the
governments of the Atlantic provinces, and to see whether
certain of the Government of Canada's ideas were in line with
theirs.
We are aware that the same solution may not be right for every
community or every province. That is why we are working in
conjunction with the provinces.
Mr. Yvan Bernier (Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland appears to be dissatisfied with what
the minister is preparing to announce. That is a bad sign.
Given the real needs of the fishery workers, what does the
minister have to reply to Newfoundland Premier Brian Tobin, who
is calling for between $800 million and $1 billion to cover the
four elements I spoke of yesterday?
1135
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I too have seen what Premier
Tobin is calling for. All I can say at this time is that
dialogue produces results.
Dialogue will certainly lead us to see how we can best serve the
people in our communities, in a post-TAGS context.
For the time being, I will not comment on a totally arbitrary
figure thrown out without any indication as to whether it is for
all provinces or just Newfoundland.
* * *
[English]
HEPATITIS C
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, today after years of waiting, hundreds of victims of
government health care policy will finally receive compensation.
Unfortunately though I am not talking about victims of poisoned
blood. I am referring to victims of forced sterilization in
Alberta. They are being compensated. Alberta initially refused to
compensate these individuals but they swallowed their pride and
decided to deal with the issue.
Why will the health minister not follow Alberta's example, admit
he was wrong and compensate all hepatitis C victims?
Mr. Joseph Volpe (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the member will recall of course
that the first compensation package that was announced some
couple of months ago had as signatories all of the provincial
premiers as well as the territorial ministers and all ministers
of health.
As I indicated in this House before, on a matter of such
seriousness the only thing that is workable of course is a
consensus position, which involves all authorities throughout the
country. It was such a position that was presented to all
victims. I think it received the accord and agreement of
everyone. Now we are in a position where all of those same
players are once again at a table—
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member for Calgary—Nose
Hill.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the province of Alberta showed leadership on the
sterilization issue. All we have seen from Ottawa's health
minister is buck passing and excuses as we have just heard.
If the health minister really was leadership material, you would
think he would be looking for ways to make hepatitis C
compensation happen, not ways to make consensus fail.
What single thing has the health minister done to show real
caring and concern for pre-1986 victims?
Mr. Joseph Volpe (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it might be helpful to trace back
in history to only a year ago to recognize that none of the
provinces or the territories, in fact nobody was interested in
compensation.
If leadership means bringing people to the table when they did
not want to consider any such issues, well then that is
leadership. The minister brought his colleagues from across the
country together to the table. They fashioned out a compensation
package, one that is agreed upon even by members of the
opposition parties. We have before us at least the workings of a
method of dealing with the most tragic issue in this country's
health history.
* * *
[Translation]
MAPLE SYRUP INDUSTRY
Ms. Hélène Alarie (Louis-Hébert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is
for the Minister of Human Resources Development.
During the ice storm, the minister announced a special $40
million fund to hire workers. The fund, managed by Human
Resources Development Canada, had no priorities and operated on
a first come, first served basis.
Since this program continues to be managed by HRDC and has not
been transferred to the Government of Quebec, will the minister
keep his promises to maple syrup producers?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am stunned to hear the Bloc
Quebecois criticizing us now for looking after people who were
in the middle of the ice storm crisis. We had three months to
run this program—from January to April—and we are being
criticized for taking the “first come, first served” approach.
When a crisis occurs, you generally try to deal with the most
urgent matter, that of helping people. I can assure you that
our fellow citizens were very happy to have the Government of
Canada—as represented by the Canadian army, my colleague
responsible for Canada's economic development and the Department
of Human Resources Development—help them, compared with what
other governments did.
Ms. Hélène Alarie (Louis-Hébert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, 600 maple
syrup producers are threatened because of his inaction. Needs
are desperate.
Does the minister not understand that he must change his
position and give HRDC new resources to ensure the survival of
the industry?
1140
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have already done a lot to
help maple syrup producers. We are aware of certain
difficulties.
It is well known that many of these measures are now the
responsibility of the Government of Quebec. The measures we took
to help the producers during the storm were the ones taken over
by the Government of Quebec on April 1.
We spent the money we had set aside for this and, if we can do
more as a government, we will, because we always want to help
our fellow Canadians.
* * *
[English]
IMMIGRATION
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
we asked the minister of immigration for a straight answer on a
simple question about whether or not she believes a convicted
drug dealer should be allowed to stay in Canada and seek refugee
status and she gives us a haughty little lecture about the rule
of law.
Let me tell her about the rule of law. This parliament is
sovereign and it can exercise its sovereign power to amend the
legislation to ensure that convicted drug dealers like this get
kicked out of the country like they should be.
Will this minister act or not?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. minister did not say that she condoned the
conduct of this convicted individual. She was merely pointing to
the fact that in our system, parliament makes laws but they are
interpreted by the courts.
As I see in a press report, and I have not reviewed the ruling,
all the supreme court said was that this individual should get a
hearing. It did not say he should be allowed in the country. I
understand from the press report that it specifically pointed to
the other measures that the minister mentioned that could be used
to deny this person permanent status in this country.
Why does the Reform Party not pay attention to the facts on this
matter instead of making these wrongful insinuations?
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the fact is that the supreme court has ruled that this person has
a right to a hearing when he is a convicted drug dealer who is a
threat to this country and its citizens.
When will this government stand up for Canadians instead of the
rights of drug dealers by amending the legislation?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the legislation in question was a product of the work of
government. The minister said she was going to review the law to
see what other amendments are necessary. She is not even going
to wait for that. She is going to see what other parts of the
existing laws should be used.
The Reform Party is totally out to lunch when it says that this
government is standing up for drug dealers. It is not doing that
at all.
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Ghislain Fournier (Manicouagan, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.
In the riding of Manicouagan, not only do we have to deal with a
shortage of steady jobs and a large number of unemployed, but
the minister has decided to eliminate all specialized resources
in employment insurance for the middle and lower North Shore.
How can the minister justify abandoning the unemployed of the
middle and lower North Shore, when his new reform is creating an
increasing number of problems for these people? Will the
minister answer my question, yes or no?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, all I can say is that, as far as
I can tell, the reform is good for Canadians. Employees in our
offices across the country are now familiar with the new
legislation and they do a very good job of serving their fellow
citizens whenever they call upon them.
I can even see an improvement in the services provided, since
the management of active measures was more difficult at the
beginning. I can assure you that I have not yet heard any
criticism from the North Shore to the effect that the quality of
service has diminished, quite the contrary.
* * *
[English]
BOATING SAFETY
Mr. Gar Knutson (Elgin—Middlesex—London, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, every year in Canada 200 lives are lost and 6,000
non-fatal accidents occur while recreational boating.
Can the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans please tell us what he
and his department are doing to increase the safety of the
boating public on Canada's waterways?
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member has very correctly
pointed out, this is a serious question with respect to loss of
life and also the injury of individuals, many of whom are
children.
In addition to the measures with respect to flotation devices,
measures with respect to speed restrictions and safety equipment,
at the start of Safe Boating Week which begins tomorrow, I will
be making further announcements to enhance boating safety in one
of the most popular recreational activities that Canadians have.
* * *
IMMIGRATION
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, what we
are talking about here is a convicted drug dealer selling $10
million worth of drugs. What about our children?
Why will this government not just simply throw this drug dealer
out of the country?
1145
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (Minister of Citizenship and
Immigration, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I think the Reform Party is
looking for questions this morning. They do not know what to
ask.
This is the fourth question on the same subject. We answered
very clearly on that. We said that we have other tools in the
legislation to deal with that case.
Yesterday we had a decision by the supreme court concerning an
interpretation of the refugee convention of the United Nations.
This is not a simple matter. It is an important one. We will
look at it and will act on it if we have to do so. In the
meantime we can act on that individual.
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, in
fact this is a very simple matter. I am shocked that this
minister is laughing about an issue as important as this one.
We have a convicted drug dealer. Why will the minister and the
government not just throw that drug dealer out of the country?
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (Minister of Citizenship and
Immigration, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have to look at the
impact of the decision that we received yesterday. It only says
that individual should have a hearing in front of the refugee
board.
We have other tools in the legislation to prevent individuals
from going to the refugee board. This was in Bill C-44 voted on
in the Chamber, but the Reform Party voted against it.
* * *
CANADA CUSTOMS AND REVENUE AGENCY
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the minister of national revenue. Yesterday
the government brought in legislation to create the Canada
customs and revenue agency. If there ever were a bureaucratic
blunder looking for self-justification, it is this proposal.
Is the minister of national revenue prepared to reconsider this
matter, given the fact that the provinces have not agreed and
that a lot of the initial justifications for this agency simply
have not manifested themselves?
Why is the government proceeding at this time against all the
advice to the contrary that it has received?
Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal (Minister of National Revenue,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member. He is quite
wrong. In fact with five provinces including British Columbia we
have working groups to look at areas where we can work in
co-operation.
It does not take a rocket scientist to understand that there is
only one taxpayer. If we in the country can get to having a
single tax administration we would all be better off. With one
stop shopping, a single window administration, we will better off
as Canadians.
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, the origin of this agency had to do with the
government's intention to harmonize the GST and to envision this
supertax agency that would reach down and do all the taxing for
all levels of government. A working group does not make a
provincial agreement to participate in these agencies and the
government is being premature in proceeding with this matter.
Instead of proceeding without the original justification, why
does the minister not scrap the agency and the GST while he is at
it and he will have no justification whatsoever for proceeding
with this agency?
Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal (Minister of National Revenue,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member should know that we
already do a lot of work for the provinces. In fact we collect
50% for certain provinces and up to 87% of their taxes. We have
a very good established relationship.
The agency will create an opportunity to even advance that for
provincial participation. Is the hon. member against provincial
participation? The provinces have been asking for it.
This agency will include the provinces. That is good for Canada
and that is good for the provinces. It will provide a better
service and simplify tax administration. I know the hon. member
will support it when he reads the document.
* * *
HEPATITIS C
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Minister of Health.
I have a letter from the hon. Russell MacLellan, premier of the
province of Nova Scotia, a former parliamentary secretary. In
this letter he says “The provincial, territorial and federal
ministers of health have met on hepatitis C and an agreement has
now been reached for individuals who were infected between
January 1984 and 1990”. Previously we were told that the window
was only 1986 to 1990. Premier MacLellan is now saying 1984.
Will the minister confirm this expanded window and tell us when
hepatitis C victims will be notified?
1150
Mr. Joseph Volpe (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the member is probably referring
to some of the proposals that were put on the table at the
earlier part of the week in Edmonton in the two day session when
all submissions were being presented to the working group.
I suspect that the member upon close reading of that letter will
find that some of these suggestions may have had greater weight
than others. I am going to wait, as we will wait, for the
working group to give us a definitive response.
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr.
Speaker, no matter how many times I read this letter it says the
same thing. It says “An agreement has been reached for
individuals with hepatitis C who were infected between January
1984 and 1990”. It says an agreement between the provincial,
territorial and federal ministers.
Somebody is wrong here. Either the premier of the province of
Nova Scotia or the hon. member. Will he tell us which one is
wrong?
Mr. Joseph Volpe (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thought it was pretty clear.
Even if he wants to reread that letter over and over again, I
gave an indication that a series of options was presented.
Obviously there was agreement on some and less agreement on
others. The working group will take all those things into
consideration, evaluate them, weigh them, cost them and give the
appropriate governments an indication of which ones should
receive priority.
If the process is working, as the letter suggests it is, then he
should wait until all that work is done and get a definitive
response.
* * *
GUN CONTROL
Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, today
it is reported that the government will be confiscating firearms
from law-abiding citizens and gun dealers without compensation.
Could the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice
tell us whether the government will be confiscating firearms?
Ms. Eleni Bakopanos (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
thank the hon. member for her question. The government unlike
the Reform and the Conservative parties opposite is committed to
gun control for public safety. We are committed to ensure that
children do not shoot children.
We are also committed at the same time to the respect of
law-abiding Canadian gun owners. Therefore the minister, after
she met with a user group, put together a special amnesty to
respond to the concerns of dealers raised by the executive
director of the Canadian Police Association.
There will be an amnesty for law-abiding Canadian citizens.
* * *
VICLAS
Mr. Chuck Cadman (Surrey North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it
has been a number of weeks since I first asked the solicitor
general about the violent crime linkage analysis system or ViCLAS
that the RCMP computer system used for tracking serial killers
and sex offenders.
Senior police officials say that it is only a matter of time
before a preventable rape or murder occurs because there are
thousands of crimes missing from the computer databank.
Just what is the solicitor general doing to ensure that this
valuable investigative tool gets all the resources required to
keep it running?
Mr. Nick Discepola (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor
General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the
hon. member realizes and has admitted that ViCLAS is an
instrumental tool in helping to solve crime.
As a matter of fact the real problem with ViCLAS is not the
system itself but that the data which have to be entered is the
responsibility of individual provinces.
To that end the solicitor general is reviewing, especially with
the province of British Columbia, ways that we can co-operate
with the various provinces. That is where the bottleneck seems
to be.
I am led to believe also that the province of British Columbia
has already hired four extra data entry clerks to catch up with
the volume.
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Ghislain Fournier (Manicouagan, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.
In view of his reply to my earlier question, how can the
minister explain that it is the postman travelling from village
to village in the middle and lower North Shore who is the
employment insurance expert? How can he explain that?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as the Minister of Citizenship
and Immigration said earlier, Bloc members probably do not have
many questions this morning, because they keep coming back to
the same ones.
If the hon. member has a specific question regarding the very
useful role of the postman and what an employee of Canada Post
can do, I am very pleased to see that the postman is helpful to
people.
However, if the hon. member has a more specific question on how
my department is run, he can come to see me and we will do our
very best to provide good services to North Shore residents.
* * *
[English]
PAY EQUITY
Ms. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker, recent
court cases affecting women workers at Bell Canada have cast into
doubt the likelihood that these women will have their rights
recognized under the federal pay equity legislation which has
been on the books for 20 years.
1155
If the government is committed, if the President of the Treasury
Board is as committed as he says he is to equality for women,
will the minister stand up today for the principle of pay equity
and intervene in the Bell Canada case to ensure that 20,000
Canadian women have their concerns addressed in the appropriate
tribunal to reach a fair and just settlement?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
we have stood for the equality of equal pay for work of equal
value for a long while. In particular the government passed a
law in 1978 that talked about equality.
We have offered $1.3 billion to help women achieve equality. I
ask the member to try to put some pressure on the unions so that
in the end the unions will agree to give that money to women who
fully deserve it.
* * *
VETERANS AFFAIRS
Mr. Mark Muise (West Nova, PC): Mr. Speaker, Sue Riordon
has been fighting to have her husband's pension benefits
increased in light of the fact that doctors have said that he is
90% to 100% disabled. Her husband, Terry, suffers from gulf war
syndrome.
It seems coincidental that since she testified at the SCONDVA
hearings in Halifax that their claim has been denied. This is
yet another example of how the government is ignoring its
veterans.
Will the Minister of Veterans Affairs explain why he is ignoring
the doctors' recommendations by refusing to provide Terry with a
full military pension?
Hon. Fred Mifflin (Minister of Veterans Affairs and Secretary
of State (Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency), Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I think the hon. member knows that the government, along
with many other governments, in fact all governments, does not
recognize that there is such an illness as gulf war syndrome.
I want to tell the hon. member that this country provides
veterans of World War I, World War II, Korean war and retired
members of the Canadian forces and the RCMP with the best
possible benefits of any other country in the world. I am proud
to stand by that.
* * *
CORRECTIONAL SERVICE CANADA
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the solicitor general recently announced that Correctional
Service Canada would hire 1,000 new correctional officers for
penitentiaries across the country. He has also said he believes
that we already incarcerate too many people in Canada.
How does the minister or his parliamentary secretary reconcile
the desire to put fewer offenders in jail with their hiring of
1,000 new correctional officers?
Mr. Nick Discepola (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor
General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hiring of 1,000
new correctional officers is not at all inconsistent with the
desire to reduce the prison population. On the contrary, it is
good news for corrections. It is consistent with our goal to
have effective corrections.
Correctional officers do not simply perform guard duty. They
participate in programming, case management, risk assessment and
provide proactive intervention measures.
In summary, they will reduce the individual caseloads of
officers resulting in more effective corrections and will bring
stability to some of the institutions.
* * *
ACCESS TO INFORMATION
Mr. Derrek Konrad (Prince Albert, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, in
his final report the access to information commissioner slammed
the government's system-wide chronic problem of non-compliance
with the act.
To underscore the problem he included this quote in his report
to characterize the government's attitude: “Never write if you
can speak; never speak if you can nod; never nod if you can
wink”.
When will the government stop winking at the law and start
complying with access to information requests?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the report in question also praised the Privy Council
Office for eliminating the delay in handling access to
information requests.
I point out that Canada is still one of only fifteen countries
in the world to have access to information legislation. We are
taking the lead; we are not lagging behind.
We are certainly willing to review the act to see what
improvements can be made. We are taking the access
commissioner's report seriously, but we have to look at the good
things he says as well as the other parts of the report.
* * *
[Translation]
SUDAN
Mrs. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is
for the Deputy Prime Minister.
Sudan is currently experiencing a terrible famine. CIDA, whose
priority is to attend to people's basic needs, is not yet
involved in Sudan.
Can the minister tell us why, between 1993 and 1997, CIDA cut
one-third of its official development assistance funding to the
48 poorest countries in the world and what his government
intends to do to help Sudan?
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the federal government was indeed
forced, at one time, to cut the Canadian International
Cooperation Agency's budgets, but the hon. member opposite is no
doubt aware of the fact that, in the last budget tabled by the
Minister of Finance, these cuts were cancelled.
1200
Of course, when the country's finances will permit it, this
government clearly intends to do all it can to provide
assistance to those in need around the world, including the
Sudanese.
* * *
[English]
EMPLOYMENT
Ms. Louise Hardy (Yukon, NDP): Mr. Speaker, since the
closure of the Anvil Range mine in Faro, Yukon the unemployment
rate has risen to over 17%. There is a Faro mine reclamation
trust fund set up and this fund was meant for clean up.
Will the minister replace the tough luck, too bad message that
has been sent to the Yukon and use the money to help support jobs
for the town of Faro, the First Nations of Ross River and in fact
for people of the Yukon territory?
Mr. Gerry Byrne (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Natural Resources, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the decision to close
mines based on the availability of natural resources is always a
very difficult one which faces many communities throughout
Canada.
However, in this situation the local people themselves are
working together for solutions. I would like to work with the
hon. member and, quite frankly, I would take the opportunity
right after question period to sit down with her to review the
issue and get more details.
* * *
REPORT OF THE AUDITOR GENERAL
The Deputy Speaker: I have the honour to lay upon the
table the report of the Auditor General of Canada on the
requirement to report specified foreign property under section
233.3 of the Income Tax Act.
[Translation]
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(e), this document is deemed to
have been permanently referred to the Standing Committee on
Public Accounts.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[Translation]
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant
to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in both
official languages, the government's response to no less than 40
petitions.
* * *
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I ask
that all questions be allowed to stand.
[English]
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, for eight months Question No. 21 has been
languishing on the Order Paper. It takes nine months from
conception to delivery.
When will the government give birth to the answer to Question
No. 21?
Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Speaker, I know the member has been
concerned regarding Question No. 21.
As he may have noticed, I presented the responses to no less
than 40 petitions today and we have over 1,000 petitions to deal
with. We have completed well over 80% of the responses to
petitions. We are at 70% or 75% in other responses.
The problem with Question No. 21, as he knows, is that it
involves inquiries to be made in every department of the
government. I want to assure him that we are very close to the
end of this particular marathon.
The Deputy Speaker: Shall the questions stand?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
PENSION BENEFITS STANDARDS ACT, 1985
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill S-3, an
act to amend the Pension Benefits Standards Act, 1985 and the
Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions Act, be
read the third time and passed.
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I very much
appreciate the opportunity to speak to Bill S-3 today at third
reading.
This bill is a well considered and concrete example of how we
are dealing federally with our regulated private pension plans.
We are updating the Pension Benefits Standards Act, 1985, or the
PBSA as it is often called.
1205
These reforms are long overdue. This legislation governs the
private pensions plans in the sectors that are subject to federal
jurisdiction, including banking, interprovincial transportation
and telecommunications. These plans are administered by the
Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions, or OSFI.
Of Canada's 16,000 pension plans about 1,100 are covered by the
PBSA. They represent approximately $45 billion or 10% of the
entire asset value of all private pension plans in Canada.
With the number of seniors in Canada growing so rapidly I assure
the House that sound, secure pensions are and continue to be a
priority of this government. Our colleagues know that over the
past two years we have embarked on a dramatic reform of the
public component of our national pension system, including
changes long overdue in the Canada pension plan. If we had not
made these changes, in 20 years there would have been real
problems and we would not have the type of secure retirement that
Canadians deserve.
The PBSA has not been materially revised since it came into
force in 1987. This is in contrast to the financial institutions
legislation where the supervisory and credential systems were
significantly strengthened, first in 1992, then in 1995 and again
in 1997. There is no question that the PBSA needs to be updated.
While most federally regulated pension plans are fully funded,
some pension plans have come under financial pressure as a result
of demographic and economic factors. These include an aging
workforce. They can also come about from corporate downsizing.
Those are two factors which make pension funding relatively more
expensive for employers.
In this environment there have been solvency concerns regarding
some plans, while others have wound up without sufficient assets
to pay all of the benefits that were promised. In these
situations the employer, whether a single employer or an industry
group, experienced economic difficulties.
Many pension plans made substantial improvements to pension
benefits in the 1980s with the expectation that employers would
always be able to fund them. This also added to the challenges.
In some cases insufficient contributions were made to fund these
improvements. As these problems emerged it became clear that the
current credential and supervisory framework is not always
equipped to deal with problem plans. The range of powers and
regulatory components needed were just not there. Bill S-3 is
our effort to meet these challenges. Under this legislation the
federal government and the superintendent of OSFI will have the
necessary powers and tools to work with plans that are
experiencing problems.
The measures in Bill S-3 flow from a series of basic principles
outlined in our July 1996 white paper. These principles are that
private pension plans be supervised for the benefit of members,
retirees and other beneficiaries, that the pension regulatory and
supervisory framework should contain the incentives and
safeguards necessary to reduce the possibility that pension
promises might not be met, and to provide for early intervention
and resolution of pension plans that are experiencing difficulty.
Outside supervision cannot and will not be expected to guarantee
that pension promises will always be met, nor can it be a
substitute for good governance of plans by administrators. After
all, these plans are governed by the trustees who are appointed
by the workers and by the companies themselves. Regulation and
supervision must be cost effective. Regulatory framework for
pension plans should not impose undue costs on existing plans or
unduly inhibit the creation of new plans.
Members of private pension plans should receive adequate and
timely information from the administrator concerning the precise
financial condition of the plan that person is under.
There must be appropriate accountability and transparency in the
supervisory process itself.
1210
The measures in this bill are as a result of a very broad
consultation process. In drafting this legislation the comments
received on the initial proposals that were contained in the
white paper were considered and the appropriate amendments were
made. Provincial ministers responsible for the supervision of
provincial pension plans were also invited to comment and there
was ongoing consultation among pension supervisors to the CAPSA.
I should mention, too, that other proposals in the white paper
which have not been addressed in this legislation will be
introduced later through regulation. Areas such as additional
disclosure requirements and funding rules are already dealt with
through regulations and this approach will continue.
In other cases, such as planned governance and investments, the
government believes that it is more appropriate to develop best
practices. We recognize that the size and other attributes of
individual pension plans will affect government structures,
government practices and investment strategies.
Considerable additional consultation will take place prior to
the implementation of these regulations and guidelines.
At this time, on behalf of the government, I would like to thank
the Senate, the many industry participants and other stakeholders
who provided such constructive and insightful co-operation and
advice in bringing this legislation forward and in working with
us in such a constructive way to deal with the precise problems
that we faced to fashion legislation which is more responsive to
the concerns that all of us have, which is to maintain secure and
dignified retirements for our pensioners.
I have highlighted the important issues dealt with in this
legislation. All of us believe that the stability of Canada's
private pension regime will be enhanced for the benefit of its
plan members. We are confident of that. I certainly encourage
all colleagues in this House to give speedy passage to this bill
and I thank them for the co-operative approaches which they have
taken in working with us, with pensioners and with the regulators
to provide better legislation for Canada's pension community.
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased
to have the privilege to stand in the House of Commons, Canada's
highest court, we hope. We hope that it would take precedence
over the Supreme Court of Canada.
We also have a responsibility in standing here. Today I
represent not only the people of Canada, not only the people of
my riding, but also I represent, hopefully, the interests of
pensioners or potential pensioners in private plans around the
country.
I would like to give a statement that will put you at ease, Mr.
Speaker. That is, I am not going to use more than about 30
seconds to talk about the Senate today.
People out in the real world who are listening to this debate
are probably not too aware of the fact that bills which initiate
in the House of Commons begin with the letter C. This one
happens to begin with the letter S, which means it started
in the Senate. Of course we have reasons to believe that there
are some untoward government motivations to quickly pass it in
the Senate and then bring it here.
We believe very strongly in the Reform Party that that is
backwards. Bills of this importance should definitely be
initiated by the elected members of our parliamentary system and
not by those who are appointed by political patronage
connections.
This bill is called S-3. That means it started in the Senate.
With that comment about the Senate, I am going to get on to some
of the things which are particularly interesting to us.
I want to draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, and the attention of
all of the Liberals who are pushing this legislation through and
certainly the attention of Canadians to a very important aspect
of Bill S-3.
1215
The parliamentary secretary has already outlined some of the
reasons for this bill. I have to admit there are many things in
this bill we think are commendable and should be proceeded with.
However, there are also some extremely odious components. As a
member of the official opposition it is my duty and
responsibility to draw those to everyone's attention.
Section 9.(2) in the Pension Benefits Standards Act, 1985 is
fraught with a bit of a problem. It states that if an actuarial
report filed under this section indicates that there is a surplus
in a private pension fund, in other words if there is more money
in the fund than what is needed to meet the obligations under a
fixed benefit plan, that surplus may be refunded to the employer.
Section 9.(2) gives some conditions as to when, where and under
what conditions the employer can get the money back. One of them
is that the superintendent must consent to the refund. I will
come back to this in a few seconds.
It also states that an employer has a claim to the surplus or
part of it after being notified of the employer's proposal for a
refund of that surplus or part of it if at least two-thirds of
the persons in the different categories consent to it. If only
50% consent to it then the superintendent will appoint an
arbitrator and will judge the matter.
Does that not raise a red flag? I know Liberals love red. There
is a member across right now dressed in red and I think it looks
great. We are familiar with the infamous red book. So red and
Liberal sort of go together. In this case, however, I hope they
see red. Red is also a warning. In traffic it means we need to
stop. It is a warning for danger. Whenever there is extreme
danger the colour red is used.
This is what I want to talk about. It so happens that section
9.(2) could directly impact on the personal holdings of the
Minister of Finance. For at least a decade there has been a
controversy about actuarial surpluses in private
employer-employee pension plans, a situation that rarely occurred
before the mid-1980s. Is the employer entitled to a surplus or
are the workers?
This issue was brought to a head in 1986 when Conrad Black's
Dominion stores took $63 million from three employee pension
plans and were subsequently forced by Ontario's supreme court to
return the funds. At that time a moratorium was put on all
surpluses regulated by the province of Ontario and although this
has been relaxed somewhat, provincial rules for the division of
surpluses are still very stringent.
There are a number of questions that need to be answered about
the minister's involvement in this legislation before the Reform
Party can approve it and certainly before the Liberals should be
passing this.
The Minister of Finance acquired Canada Steamship Lines in 1981.
The Pension Fund Society of Canada Steamship Lines based on
Montreal has had one of these defined benefit pension plans for
its employees since 1940. The last actuarial evaluation of the
plan on which we have information was done in December 1995 by A.
Foster Higgins & Co. However, according to the Pension Fund
Society's newsletters we know that the plan's assets have enjoyed
spectacular growth in recent years, for example 21% in 1995, 20%
in 1996 and 17% in 1997.
The society's obligation to the beneficiaries was $84 million in
1997. However, net assets in the plan were $252 million and the
total surplus was valued $142 million in that year.
1220
Under the present rules of the superintendent of financial
institutions the employer, in this case the minister, is eligible
to claim $118 million in surplus from this pension fund. He
would probably not get all of it because he would have to strike
a deal to give a part of it to pensioners in order to persuade at
least 50% of them to agree to give him the surplus.
No contributions have been made to the plan by the employer
since December 31, 1984 and by employees since December 31, 1991.
There were 823 beneficiaries in 1996, after 25 had passed away in
that year, which included 127 active employees.
The plan is committed to indexing benefits to 80% of inflation.
Beneficiaries received an increase of 2% in 1996, representing
90% of inflation.
It is very timely for the Minister of Finance that the act be
passed now. It was first introduced by the Minister of Industry
in the House in March, 1997, then in the Senate by Senator
Alisdair Graham last fall with a few minor changes. Under the
bill if two-thirds of beneficiaries vote to release the surplus
funds the employer can have them provided also that the
superintendent of financial institutions agrees. If less than
two-thirds but more than half agree, the matter must go to
binding arbitration. The arbitrator is chosen by the
superintendent if the parties cannot agree on a choice.
This information begs a number of important questions. The
official opposition must receive adequate answers to them before
approving this legislation.
Is the minister in a general conflict of interest when a bill
from which he might benefit so significantly is passed under his
general authority, a bill that receives all necessary support and
impetus from his office? We have searched for an answer to this
important question for some time. We spoke to ethics counsellor
Howard Wilson January 30 about the minister's involvement with
this legislation and he answered that the Canada Steamship Line's
pension fund is incorporated under the Pension Fund Societies Act
under the auspices of the Department of Industry and will not
therefore be directly affected by the Pension Benefit Standards
Act.
The ethics counsellor confirmed to us that the surplus in CSL's
plan is about $140 million. However, we have obtained the 1996
financial statements for Canada Steamship Lines Pension Fund
Society and a number of newsletters from the society. The
newsletters comment often on the passage of the Pension Benefits
Standards Act, 1985 as if it will be directly relevant to the
surplus in their plan. The financial statements from 1996
actually state that the plan is registered under the Pension
Benefits Standards Act, 1985 and the registration number is
55006.
We have also consulted with the Department of Industry and it
has found a registration for the pension fund under the Pension
Fund Societies Act. It is registered under both, while the
ethics counsellor is under the impression that it is registered
under one act only.
We would like an answer to our second question. Is Mr. Martin's
pension plan still registered under the—
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member knows he
cannot refer to members of this House by name. I know he would
not want to make that mistake.
Mr. Ken Epp: I know that, Mr. Speaker. I apologize. The
notes have his name and I guess I was not paying close attention
to what I was reading.
Is the pension plan still registered under the Pension Benefits
Standards Act, 1985? If it is, it means that the Canada
Steamship Lines pension fund will be directly affected by this
legislation. Does this put the minister in conflict of interest?
That is a very important question that needs an answer.
The third question the Reform Party would like to have answered
is a more important one. Why did the ethics counsellor have
incorrect information about the registration of this pension
fund. Who told him that the pension fund was not registered
under the Pension Benefits Standards Act, 1985 currently before
this House but only under the Pension Fund Societies Act? How
did the misinformation come to him? Did it make its way from the
minister's office? Was it an honest mistake or does it represent
an attempt to mislead the ethics counsellor into thinking that
the minister would not be directly affected by the act now before
this House and cause the ethics counsellor to defend the minister
when perhaps he should be warning him?
We have made an access to information request to Mr. Wilson's
office on this issue but we were refused any information he has
on his file. We appealed this decision to the information
commissioner but we think it is strange that all information
would be denied us in a way directly contrary to the spirit of
the conflict of interest and post-employment code for public
office holders approved by the Liberal government in June 1994.
1225
Allow me to read clause 3.2 of the code: “Public office holders
have an obligation to perform their official duties and arrange
their private affairs in a manner that will bear the closest
public scrutiny, an obligation that is not fully discharged by
simply acting within the law”.
It appears that the ethics counsellor does not want the public
to have any insight into this matter, much less the closest
public scrutiny the code requires.
We regard this as a serious issue and we encourage the ethics
counsellor to lay before the public the documents that will bear
the level of public scrutiny required in the code.
Continuing with what the ethics counsellor told us, he then said
that the minister has doubly distanced himself from the passage
of the bill because he left all ministerial work concerning the
bill to the Secretary of State for International Financial
Institutions. Combined with the suggestion that the bill would
not impact the CSL Pension Fund Society, this was a kind of
double indemnity against conflict of interest in the ethics
counsellor's eyes.
However, I would remind the House that the Secretary of State
for International Financial Institutions is not an independent
minister. The present secretary of state was appointed by
cabinet proclamation pursuant to section 11 of the Ministries and
Ministers of State Act which was first passed by the Trudeau
government in 1970. Section 11 of that act tells us that the
duty of the minister is to assist any minister or ministers as
having responsibility for any department and states that the
secretary of state will make use of the services and facilities
of the department.
A copy of the proclamation notice from the June 25, 1997
Gazette states that the present secretary of state was
appointed pursuant to section 11 and it details the duties to
assist the Minister of Finance in carrying out his
responsibilities.
The secretary of state clearly takes his direction from the
Minister of Finance and his job is to follow his orders. This
looks like a suspiciously close relationship and it gives rise to
the follow question. Since the minister's pension fund will be
directly affected by this act and since the minister guiding it
through the legislative process cannot rightly be called
independent, is the Minister of Finance therefore in a conflict
of interest?
We are suspicious about the secretary of state's independence
for a particular reason. As I stated earlier, the Minister of
Industry first introduced this bill into the House a year ago.
This gives rise to yet another question. Presumably the Minister
of Industry first introduced Bill S-3 because he bears
responsibility for the Pension Fund Societies Act, an act that is
separate from the Pension Benefits Standards Act, 1985. Why did
the Minister of Industry then not reintroduce this act in this
parliament? Why was it transferred from the Minister of Industry
to the secretary of state, a junior minister under the direct
control and supervision of the Minister of Finance?
We become even more suspicious when we note that in section 9 of
the act now in question the rules for granting a surplus to an
employer are considerably relaxed. There is no division formula
in the present act. There is no vote required in the present
regulations. We are not opposed to entrenching a formula in
legislation, but in practice in the pension fund industry most
companies hold a vote and receive the agreement of up to 100% of
pensioners.
There are some examples. Last July active and retired employees
of Jenisys Engineered Products voted 95% to divide a surplus. In
December 1997 Unisys employees voted 99% in favour of a division
of a pension fund surplus.
Since July 1990 regulation 10 of the Ontario pension benefits
act has stipulated that for ongoing plans a plan sponsor must
obtain 100% agreement of all members. Later that was changed to
90%, which is the current requirement.
1230
Ontario's legislation may be restrictive but the idea that there
would be a vote requiring the approval of just two-thirds of
employees, and if between one-half and two-thirds of employees
voted for the change it would go to an arbitrator who would make
a final decision is an innovation in the industry. Only the
provinces of B.C. and Quebec allow for mandatory arbitration.
This act will make the surplus much more accessible to the
minister. The present role of the superintendent under the
Pension Benefits Standards Act is to ensure the funded status of
the plan that it remain solvent if any surplus is given. His
role is not to hand out surpluses to employers or employees; the
courts decide who gets any surplus.
The amendments to the Pension Benefits Standards Act in Bill S-3
actually broaden the role of the superintendent in that he must
appoint an arbitrator if 50% of employees agree, a role he did
not have before. The superintendent's office tells us that in
the situation of an ongoing pension plan, like the minister's, it
is very unlikely that the employer would get anything under the
present act. The employer might try to approach employees for
their agreement, but even if there is a vote the superintendent
will still require that the courts give their blessing to any
distribution.
If a plan is terminating, that is winding up, the superintendent
makes a strictly legal decision based on the plan documents. If
the plan itself is silent on who gets the surplus, it again ends
up in the courts. In the minister's case where his company's
plan is ongoing, the case would normally have gone to the courts.
This act removes the issue from the courts and politicizes it to
the point where only half the employees have to agree before the
matter goes to an arbitrator. And get this: the arbitrator is
appointed by the superintendent who in turn is appointed by the
Minister of Finance.
This bill is so different from the norm that it begs two further
obvious questions. The present superintendent, John Palmer, was
himself appointed by the minister in September 1994. He
presumably hopes to be reappointed when the superintendent's
seven year term expires in 2001. The superintendent is therefore
dependent on the minister, but the minister in turn depends on
the superintendent to appoint an arbitrator to get the surplus.
Is this not in itself a conflict of interest?
The seventh question is, at any point during which the
legislation was being developed, did the minister have input into
the make-up of the new surplus division formula? Could he have
brought his considerable authority to bear with the intent of
relaxing the legislative requirements necessary for an employer
to have access to his own pension fund assets?
Our next concern is that the Superintendent of Financial
Institutions regulates about 1,100 private pension plans. The
Minister of Finance will argue that he is just one employer among
many and that he will be treated like every other employer by
this legislation. We would respond by quoting from the 1996
annual report of the superintendent released in March, in the
section entitled “Surplus Refunds”:
In general, surplus must exceed the greater of 25% of the
liabilities of the plan or 2 times the contribution of the
employer to the normal cost of the plan, in order to qualify for
a refund. Very few plans in surplus have levels of surplus above
these thresholds.
If there were many other pensions plans governed by the
Superintendent of Financial Institutions which are in the same
surplus situation, this particular circumstance might not be so
important. But should this act pass, the Canadian Steamship
Lines Pension Fund Society has a surplus that could be made
available to the minister of approximately $50 million. To me,
this is not small change and it would accrue to an individual
rather than a corporation.
An eighth question, part of which we asked through access to
information, is how many other plans are regulated by the
Superintendent of Financial Institutions with surpluses available
to the employer in the neighbourhood of $50 million? If there are
such companies, is the employer an individual such as the
minister or a corporation in which no one has individual
benefits? Is the minister claiming to treat himself as any other
employer when he really belongs in a category all by himself?
Will he receive a personal benefit from this legislation greater
by far than almost all other employers in Canada?
This question was answered in part by an access to information
request of April 1 which detailed for us all actuarial surpluses
over $10 million that the Superintendent of Financial
Institutions oversees.
1235
Just 44 of the 1,100 plans that the superintendent oversees have
surpluses over $10 million and only five of them have surpluses
larger than $110 million. This means that the minister's pension
fund surplus is one of the top five in the country.
This act will provide a benefit for him that only four other
companies in the nation can beat. Those companies may not be
individuals but corporations. We cannot know for sure, but in
all likelihood the minister is the individual in Canada who will
benefit the most from the passage of this legislation.
For all intents and purposes the minister is really in a unique
situation rather than just one more employer among many.
Finally, we would like to receive the minister's personal
assurance that he has kept out of the issue. We note that the
president of the pension fund society of Canada Steamship Lines
is Mr. Gordon Black, long time employee of CSL. Mr. Black is
also listed on the board of directors of Canada Steamship Lines.
So that we might be assured that the minister is not consulting
improperly with the president of the pension fund society who
will look after the interests of the company in the surplus
distribution process, we would like the minister to answer this
question: has the minister spoken to or met with Mr. Black for
any reason since January 1, 1997, just before the legislation was
first tabled? If so, when? What was the subject of the meeting
or meetings?
It is the job of the official opposition to conduct careful
inquiries into these matters in order to ensure that no minister
abuses a position of trust by passing legislation that would
augment his or her private fortune.
We are not accusing the minister of wrongdoing. We are simply
doing our job by asking questions. We are asking for full and
complete disclosure on the part of the ethics counsellor and the
minister himself so that the people of Canada can be fully
satisfied as to the integrity of the Government of Canada.
This government ran on a platform of openness and
accountability. Yet we have had such bizarre situations that the
code of conduct for ministers has been kept secret from us. The
prime minister alludes to it but never ever has presented a copy
of it.
Here we have now a situation where there is a lot of question as
to the propriety of this government actually passing this
legislation.
At the beginning of my speech I said that the Liberals are
associated with the colour red. I have raised a bunch of
questions. They are red flag questions and they are questions
that demand answers. These are questions that must be answered
before this government proceeds to ram this legislation through,
having all its members stand up in concert at the pull of their
strings to vote in favour of this.
I urge the Liberal members who want to build or create for the
first time this reputation of integrity that is so important for
the Canadian people. They want to trust their government. I urge
them to vote against this legislation. Why not let this be the
first bill that this government actually loses? It comes from
the Senate. There is no implication of anything like confidence
in the government or anything on this. Let us defeat this one
because of these unanswered questions.
Ms. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I will
take a little time to go over the bill since we have not had the
opportunity to discuss it fully as a result of the process that
has been taken.
Bill S-3 was passed by the Senate on November 20, 1997. The
legislation governs private pension plans set up for employees
working in businesses under federal jurisdiction, including
banking and interprovincial transportation and
telecommunications. The pensions of parliamentarians and those of
federal public servants are not covered by this legislation.
What is Bill S-3 intended to do? It would introduce to the
Pension Benefits Standards Act the same philosophy that governs
the changes to the legislation governing federally chartered
financial institutions in Canada.
1240
The overall intention of the bill is to set clear ground rules
for housekeeping, to codify the rules on how to handle the
controversial issue of the treatment of surplus assets in a
pension plan, to restore better balance between the employer and
those who benefit from the plan, to enhance the ability of the
minister to enter into agreements with provinces to apply and
enforce the provinces' pension legislation. There is a mandate
for the administrator of the fund to invest the assets of the
fund in a manner that a reasonable and prudent person would apply
in respect of a portfolio.
Why are we opposed to this? All of these are good intentions
and the roads to hell are paved with good intentions.
There are three major reasons we oppose Bill S-3. It entrenches
regulations which unnecessarily bypass parliament. S-3 promotes
an obsession with surplus withdrawal rather than a focus on ways
to improve the existing pension system. S-3 emanates from the
Senate and is part of a sloppy process that abandons the role of
parliament.
First, the regulations which unnecessarily bypass parliament.
Section 10.1(2)(b) of Bill S-3 allows for the imposition of rigid
arbitrary rules without consultation, truly a Henry VIII clause.
There is no evidence that such arbitrary carte blanche is needed.
The provision confers tremendous powers to unaccountable
bureaucrats.
Section 10.1(2)(b) stipulates that there shall be no
improvements in pension plans if the solvency ratio of the plan
falls below a specified level. The solvency ratio is defined by
regulations. We have a major problem with this concept.
According to the testimony of an Office of the Superintendent of
Financial Institutions official before the Senate banking
committee, the prescribed level would initially be set at 105%.
This would have had a very serious impact on the take home pay of
plan members and on the ability of trustees to improve benefits.
It is our understanding that following a discussion with the
Canadian Labour Congress and the Office of the Superintendent of
Financial Institutions, the OSFI now intends to use a less
stringent ratio. Section 10.1(2)(b) allows OSFI to do this
through order in council without having to go back to parliament.
There is no guarantee that an unaccountable bureaucrat at some
point will not impose a harmful solvency ratio at some time in
the future.
What happens if a stringent solvency ratio is imposed? A too
stringent solvency test such as the 105% ratio threatens to stop
the development of any new benefit programs in a pension plan and
even discourages improvements to existing defined benefit plans.
It will be virtually impossible for some private plans to become
more attractive because this may cause short term fluctuations in
their solvency ratio. If similar rules were to apply to the
purchase of homes, very few consumers could purchase a home
unless they could use existing liquid assets to fully purchase
the home or fully pay for any home improvements.
If these rules had been in place 30 years ago, it is hardly
exaggerating to say that we would have had no defined plan in
Canada. Every time an employer based plan improved benefits, it
had to incur a temporary solvency deficiency, which was paid up
later.
At a time when the federal government is encouraging privately
funded fully defined benefit plans, a 105% solvency ratio will
also discourage employers to set up new plans. The Canadian
Institute of Actuaries concurs. We are also concerned that the
solvency test becomes in principle a model for pension
legislation, which the provinces will adopt.
Why a shotgun approach when the OSFI has ample powers to place
restrictions on poorly funded plans or on plans deemed at risk?
OSFI may be looking for the easy way out; a lot of arbitrary
authority but not enough staff for a fine tuned regulation.
Hence, it is much easier for the OSFI to end its examination
function and strap all defined private pension plans into a
solvency ratio straitjacket, even if it freezes initiative and
may end up killing certain plans. At the very least, it shows a
lack of understanding of the historical modus operandi of private
pension plans.
We are uncertain as to which problem this government is trying
to resolve.
1245
There is no solvency crisis in the private pension system. Since
the Pension Benefits Standards Act came into force in 1987, 392
plans terminated. The assets were wound up and distributed. Of
these only nine terminated in less than fully funded status. In
most of the nine the loss of benefits to the members was minimal
and the plans had very small membership. In one plan only the
members received less than 95% of the pension benefits credit. In
that case the members received approximately 80%. The source for
that figure is the Public Benefits Standards Act annual report.
It is inappropriate to undermine the ability of all plans to
enhance pension benefits and become more attractive because of
the exaggerated importance given by the OSFI to short term market
fluctuations. It is the view that prescribing any solvency ratio
test for plan investment is probably not the right approach to
making sure plans do not terminate in an underfunded situation.
Bill S-3 already gives OSFI wide reaching powers to force poorly
funded plans to take whatever action is necessary to bring assets
and liabilities in line. There is no need for a Henry VIII
clause that removes parliament from the equation.
The current five year funding solvency constraint in the PBSA is
already sufficient to limit a situation in which contributions
and plan assets could fall short of termination liabilities. The
five year funding framework also provides ample guarantee that
termination liabilities are funded over a short period. OSFI is
taking a major policy position without any broad discussion. Even
the U.S. has much more relaxed rules.
The government should instead make the plan sponsor liable for
all the unfunded liabilities should the plan be terminated. In
the province of Ontario, for instance, an employer that
terminates a plan has to make up for the unfunded liability and
not just be on schedule with amortization payments as is
currently the case at the federal level.
This creates a self-regulatory incentive for the employer to
follow the prudent per cent approach in making improvements to
the plan. The system works well. Why not pursue this avenue at
the federal level?
The Canadian Labour Congress has said that it may be more
important for OSFI to take action against individuals who have
acted imprudently than to try to create a general rule governing
plan improvements.
An obsession with the surplus withdrawals rather than a focus on
ways to improve the existing pension system is our second
concern. Bill S-3 proposes a mechanism for employees and
employers to take the surplus out of a private pension plan
rather than offer incentives to improve pension plans.
The Liberal assault on the Canada pension plan, old age security
and its gutting of universality on the backs of the working poor
are followed by this assault on the middle class, the main
beneficiary of the private pension system. This lack of
legislated incentive to make things better is a hallmark of a
mediocre management vision of the public interest. It condemns
an increasing number of workers and retirees to poverty.
Bill S-3 should impose an outright ban on the removal of
surpluses from ongoing plans and require the consent of plan
members to remove surpluses in plans being wound up. It is
especially annoying to see the feeble position of the government
on the surplus issue when it is proposing nothing in regard to
inflation protection.
There is today an urgent need for public policy to strengthen
our public and private retirement systems. While CN and VIA Rail
retirees have seen their pensions lose value because of poor
inflation protection, the CN and VIA Rail pension plans are
approaching a surplus or are in a surplus position. Rather than
focusing on surplus refund, would it not be better instead to
focus on ways to enhance the CN and VIA Rail pension plans?
The government has failed to move away from its obsession with
short term bureaucratic efficiency. It should endeavour to work
with employers and provinces to improve pension plans rather than
focus on ways to take the money out.
Bill S-3 emanates from the Senate and is part of a sloppy
process which undermines the role of parliament.
1250
It is worth taking some time to talk seriously about the one
sided and dysfunctional legislative process that bills like Bill
S-3 are symptomatic of. We saw it earlier this morning and we
are seeing it again.
Canadians want to believe in the House of Commons. They want to
believe that what goes on here is a process steeped in trust,
openness and mutual respect. They want a process that allows all
voices to be heard, a process that is respectful of not only the
will of the majority but the rights of the minority, and a
process that is conducted in good faith, recognizing that there
are people whose voices are too often excluded from the most
critical legislative stages.
I could not help but listen to the minister speak on this matter
and indicate that he had heard from the Senate and from industry.
Nowhere did he mention that the House of Commons had a chance to
be heard from. Nowhere did he mention that Canadians as
individuals had a chance to be heard from.
The problem is that the government has made us all so captive to
the process that there is no quarter for those indispensable
principles of democracy. We give up on democracy to deal with
mountains of legislation. While the government is sure to say it
is a legitimate function of the Senate to deal with such a bill,
I would hasten to say that there is no legitimacy in having an
unelected body drafting bills that would affect the pensions of
thousands of workers.
The government has no legislative vision. It is so obsessed
with pushing forward bill after bill that it loses sight of the
delicate interrelations that exist between one program and the
next. We saw this with the changes to CPP.
The New Democratic Party kept calling on the government to table
the changes to old age security as well. We can hardly change
one without knowing what is going to happen to the other. Yet
the government failed to act. Five months later while seniors
fret about their security the government is still tinkering with
the old age security.
There is a lack of consultation. Instead of inviting Canadians
to share their voices with us the government marginalizes people
by consulting with polling firms rather than with Canadians. Bill
S-3 may have gone to the Senate banking committee but I would be
overly charitable if I were to call that consultation.
Only two groups appeared before the committee. More shocking
than that, the government wants us to accept fundamental changes
to these pensions in the absence of broad based consultation.
Even though this bill affects only 10% of total pensions in
Canada it introduces to the private sector a paradigm that may
threaten other plans including those run by the provinces. Would
a government that believed in consultation not have sought out
the voices of the people?
Members on the opposite side of the House are very comfortable
with their slim majority. Canadians see them forcing through
legislation. They see them stopping legitimate debate in the
House and making major policy statements for the cameras rather
than for their colleagues. This sort of arrogance and disrespect
for parliament is a symptom for bad legislation such as Bill S-3.
In conclusion, I was honoured to stand today on behalf of the
member for Qu'Appelle who is our critic and who is in Sault Ste.
Marie listening to what Canadians have to say about bank mergers.
The government has refused to allow parliament to do its job and
called for an all party parliamentary committee to review the
merger. On behalf of that member I present his words.
Mr. Mark Muise (West Nova, PC): Mr. Speaker, Bill S-3
proposes to update the Pension Benefits Standards Act, a law
through which the federal government supervises private pension
plans.
Canada's system of retirement income has three pillars. The
first pillar is the basic old age security paid to all seniors
together with the various supplements paid to low income seniors.
The old age security benefit has come under considerable scrutiny
lately as Canadians await the finance minister's overhaul of the
program.
As recently as last month the finance minister attempted to push
through reforms to the program in Bill C-36. Bill C-36 proposed
changes to the guaranteed income supplement that 1.5 million low
income seniors receive. The changes increased the clawback on
benefits to seniors who work part time for extra money. The PC
Party proposed amendments at report stage of that bill to protect
seniors who would see more of the supplement taken away from
them.
The bill also proposed to change how the supplement was
calculated thereby costing each senior a further cut of
approximately $6 a year.
PC Party amendments to protect seniors from these cuts were
defeated by the Liberal government. However the finance minister
has now agreed to propose further legislation to rescind these
changes.
1255
In a press release of May 25 the minister admitted that these
changes had unforeseen adverse effects on seniors benefits. If
it had not been for our party which brought the government's
attention to these cuts, the proposed changes would have passed.
Retirement savings experts are already telling middle income
Canadians over the age of 50 to be wary of savings in RRSPs
because what they save now will most likely be eaten up in higher
taxes later. This creates a directive disincentive for Canadians
to do what is right and to save for their own future and their
retirement.
The second pillar consists of employment based Canada and Quebec
pension plans. Under the government's reform to this pillar
Canadians will have to pay more to get less.
The third pillar includes retirement savings such as RRSPs and
employer pension plans. The government has moved to restrict
access to RRSPs by freezing contribution limits and forcing
seniors to mature their RRSPs two years earlier. The legislation
deals with other parts of the third pillar such as employer
pension plans. Most employer pension plans are governed by
provincial law, but 500,000 Canadians belong to the 1,000 plans
that fall under federal law.
Ten years ago the Progressive Conservative government overhauled
the Pension Benefits Standards Act, the law which governs those
plans. Significant changes were made to the minimum standards
that plans must meet in areas ranging from survivor benefits to
information disclosure. The bill before us updates that act.
The goals of the bill are to improve the way that the plans are
governed, to improve Ottawa's ability to step in when plan
administrators do not appear to be following sound financial
practices to set up rules for the withdrawal of pension
surpluses. It will also allow Ottawa to enter into supervisory
agreements with provincial regulators through the Canadian
Association of Pension Supervisory Authorities.
Unlike other recent changes to our system of retirement savings
the only parts of the bill to generate even minor controversy are
the provisions that pertain to the withdrawal of pension
surpluses. Pension fund managers are concerned that the surplus
and the wind-up provisions in the bill are weighed heavily
against employers. However the bill is not particularly
controversial. There has some controversy over the introduction
of some government bills in the Senate, a practice which has
fallen into disuse in recent years.
Without getting into debate on Senate reform, if bills are to be
introduced in the Senate, Bill S-3 is especially the kind of bill
on which the Senate can do solid work before sending it on to the
House of Commons. This is particularly the case given the
combination of the technical nature of the bill, the expertise of
those on the Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce in
area of corporate governance and the non-partisan spirit of
co-operation with which members of this committee approach such
legislation.
To not optimize the collective skills, wisdom and experience of
these senators is an affront to Canadian taxpayers. We have a
Senate and the senators on this committee have demonstrated
prowess, ability and expertise in these areas.
I remind my colleagues that to not optimize this expertise would
be denying Canadian taxpayers another level of deliberation on
this type of important legislation. It is an approach that we
could use here from time to time when we look at legislation,
especially legislation affecting areas of corporate governance
where there is a significant amount of institutional knowledge in
the Senate.
The Senate banking committee has made six substantive amendments
as a result of the testimony it heard from officials and from
outside witnesses. The Senate amendments further clarify the
rules to be followed when an employer wants to withdraw from the
pension surplus. It struck a provision that would have given the
Superintendent of Financial Institutions the ability to decide if
a particular allocation of a surplus was fair as the issue of
fairness should be left to employees and employers to be settled,
not public servants.
It also improved the process for allocating a surplus in cases
where a company goes bankrupt or winds down. It is very
important that we protect individuals when a company is faced
with the types of dramatic downsizing and corporate readjustments
that have occurred over the past several years. The legislation
will help improve that process.
Those amendments were developed by opposition and government
members in the Senate working in the spirit of co-operation with
the officials. A spirit of co-operation might be something we
should try to duplicate in the House periodically when we are
working on legislation as important as this.
1300
At the end of this process financial officials conceded that the
bill had been improved by the contribution of the Senate.
The PC party prides itself on working constructively to improve
legislation that enters this House and the Senate which is why we
proposed the amendments we did to this bill and Bill C-36.
I urge all parties to study bills affecting Canadian seniors
with the same scrutiny in order to improve legislation and to
protect our seniors.
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise on a point of order. There have been consultations among the
parties. The critic for the Bloc is unable to be with us today.
He or she will be able to speak when the debate resumes, along
with anyone else.
I think you will find agreement to adjourn this debate and that
the House see the clock as 1.30 p.m. and proceed to Private
Members' Business.
The Deputy Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: The House will now proceed to the
consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on today's
order paper.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[Translation]
PORT-CARTIER PENITENTIARY
Mr. Ghislain Fournier (Manicouagan, BQ) moved:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should
institute a public inquiry on the administration of the
maximum-security penitentiary at Port-Cartier.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I speak to you today on a matter that has,
unfortunately, taken a long time to reach the attention of this
House.
Six months ago, I moved a motion calling for a public inquiry
into events that were occurring at the Port-Cartier detention
centre, which is a maximum security facility and therefore under
the jurisdiction of this government.
Six months have passed since then, and the motion has just
resurfaced today. This motion calling for a public inquiry is,
in my opinion, self-evident.
The public inquiry called for would cast light on the past
events, which forced the guards to work under intense stress for
some days. I have met with mamagement, the unions and the
workers in the detention centre on two occasions since the
incidents, and they have told me directly that everything
possible would be done to try to find solutions to the problem
experienced.
Today, all committees that were struck have presented reports
and, fortunately, the tension appears to have dissipated
somewhat.
It is, however, most fortunate that management decided to take
the bull by the horns. Judging by the length of time it took
for my request to be responded too, it is a good thing no lives
were at risk. If that had been the case, I trust that the
government would have reacted more promptly. This long delay
between the events and the consideration of this motion makes me
wonder, however.
1305
When the motion was moved the Port-Cartier penitentiary, a
maximum security institution, was facing a crisis. The guards,
men and women, had worked long periods in a highly charged
atmosphere. They and all the personnel in the institution know
necessarily that everyone aware of it when the inmates are up to
something.
This very tense situation could have ended in violence. The
inmates threatened the corrections officers and their families
as well.
The corrections officers know when they start working in these
institutions that they can expect rough talk from the inmates at
times.
Nevertheless, patience has its limits, and when insults and
threats are directed at those dear to us it really hurts. A
number of corrections officers at the time were obliged to take
days off to distance themselves from the unhealthy atmosphere in
the institution.
I am not sure any member of this House would agree to work in
such circumstances and be treated the way guards often are in
detention centres. There are always ups and downs in these
institutions. The situation varies from one to another,
depending on the type of inmate.
When I made the motion in September, calling for a public
inquiry into the events at the Port-Cartier detention centre, the
situation was critical. There had been threats to the life of
certain guards, and some inmates had been violent.
It took six months for the matter to be brought before the
House. Six months in which, fortunately, the situation
improved, it appears. Six months in which the management of the
institution worked with all departments, including the union and
workers to find solutions.
But do we have to wait for the situation to arise again before
we intervene? Could we not take appropriate measures now to
make sure that all security guards, regardless of where they
work, can do their work safely without putting their health or
even their life in danger?
There are workers in these institutions who have nervous
breakdowns, anxiety attacks and all kinds of physical problems
related to stress. Guards know all these problems. It is quite
understandable. Corrections officers in maximum security
institutions, like the one in Port-Cartier for example, have to
deal everyday with hardened criminals who are serving a life
sentence in most cases.
The inmate population in institutions like the Port-Cartier and
Donnacona penitentiaries, for example, is very similar. However,
Port-Cartier will also receive inmates facing serious accusations
or those who need protection from other inmates.
Let us not kid ourselves, these are tough guys who fear nothing,
especially not a guard who is asking them to go back to their
cell because it is late.
These inmates are dangerous and violent when they are alone.
Imagine having to face them as a group.
Violence does not stop when the door of the cell is closed. It
often goes on inside in many different forms. That is exactly
why penitentiaries have the infamous hole, which is feared by
all inmates, the place where an inmate will be kept alone for a
certain period of time, where he will have to eat and sleep
alone with very few opportunities to get out.
1310
An inmate is not sent to the hole because he decided to give
flowers to his cellmate. The hole is used for rebels or for
those who need to be protected against violence from other
inmates.
Violence in penitentiaries is a reality, and immediate action
must be taken when a difficult situation is reported. We must
not wait for guards to lose their lives before we react.
Otherwise, why would we put criminals behind bars if guards are
to become the victims of their violence? If guards are killed on
duty, I think it means that there is surely something wrong with
the system.
In any event, I think the judicial system as a whole needs to be
scrutinized, reviewed and adjusted where appropriate. Many
inmates who are behind bars in 1998 have done time before. They
served a first sentence and were released on good behaviour two
thirds of the way through their sentence. In many cases, former
inmates quickly fell back into their old criminal habits and
offended again.
If an individual of any age mercilessly takes away someone
else's freedom or life, or significantly reduces their quality
of life, and if the justice system finds him guilty beyond any
reasonable doubt, it should also deny him all privileges, at
least the freedom he has taken away from innocent victims.
I fully understand that one is innocent until proven guilty. I
agree this is a very important concept. However, I am not clear
about how specific the evidence to the contrary must be.
Must one have witnessed the crime in order to be able to give
proof or will rational analysis be sufficient?
When the spouse of a woman whose child was found dead is
acquitted and, to boot, part of the deposition is dismissed, I
have grave concerns. Does it have to be one or the other? In
granting parole to an individual who has taken the life of a
child, is any consideration whatsoever given for instance to the
full impact of his action?
If, at the time of sentencing, the judge decided he should serve
25 years, why then does he serve only about half his sentence?
Why should an inmate be released earlier than his sentence calls
for, when his victims may have to live with the consequences of
his violent actions for the rest of their lives?
When it is not the victims themselves who have to live with the
memory, it is their relatives and friends who must live every
day without the presence of a loved one. While their lives will
forever be changed, the murderer may be set free after 10 or 12
years.
I find it absurd and I have not yet talked about how the trial
is conducted. When it takes a whole year to produce a report, it
is only normal to forget some elements and to end up producing a
document that is not as clear as if it would have been, had it
been written in the days following the events.
Similarly, when a case takes months before going to trial,
because it keeps being postponed or adjourned, the same thing
occurs. In some cases, it took years before some people finally
got their day in court. All the while, the victim and his or her
close ones were constantly reliving the tragedy.
Finally, the trial takes place and a verdict is rendered.
Imagine the pain of the members of a family following an
acquittal, or even when a jail sentence is imposed, since they
know full well that the offender will not serve out his full
sentence.
1315
Is it the whole judicial system that needs to be reviewed? One
thing is certain: we must review the rules governing parole for
serious offenders who, once released, committed the same crimes
again. While it is true that, in many cases, time spent behind
bars is beneficial and can be a form of therapy, it is not the
case for every inmate.
Going back to the motion before us, the atmosphere that prevails
in certain penal institutions is so bad that an inmate cannot be
rehabilitated. If verbal, psychological and even physical
violence is as prevalent inside the institution as it is
outside, how can we expect to rehabilitate these people?
If it is the case, we must do so before other innocent victims
fall prey to a criminal.
Mr. Nick Discepola (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am also pleased to have the
opportunity to discuss an issue which, as the hon. member for
Manicouagan pointed out, was raised in the House on October 22,
1997.
The hon. member expressed concern about management of the
maximum security penitentiary at Port-Cartier, Quebec, and asked
the government to institute a public inquiry.
[English]
On August 28, 1997 staff from the day shift at Port-Cartier
institution in the Quebec region refused to relieve the night
staff from their posts, citing dangerous working conditions.
Later that morning staff invoked Part II of the Canada Labour
Code.
[Translation]
During the evening, Labour Canada issued an interim ruling
ordering evening shift employees to perform their duties. It
also asked employees to put in writing their reasons for
invoking part II of the Canada Labour Code. Labour Canada
officials were at the Port-Cartier institution on the morning of
August 29 to conduct their inquiry.
I should also point out that, on August 30, the situation at the
institution had gone back to normal. On September 2, at the end
of its independent inquiry, Labour Canada issued its final
ruling, confirming that the immediate safety of the staff was
not at risk.
[English]
It should also be known that Labour Canada is an independent
body which addresses the health and safety concerns of all
employees involved in any federal work within the legislative
authority of parliament. As I have just stated, it acted very
promptly.
[Translation]
The principle of prevention is integrated into the Canada Labour
Code, which gives a number of basic rights to workers in the
federal administration, so as to ensure their safety in the
workplace.
There have been instances where the employees availed themselves
of their right to refuse to work, and where the inquiry
conducted by Labour Canada concluded that their health and
safety were not at risk, or that the danger was hypothetical
rather than actual. Such was the case regarding the events of
August 29, 1997.
[English]
Since the right to refuse to work can often result in an
immediate lockdown, which in turn results in increased tension
within the inmate population, it is extremely important that this
right be used for resolving genuine safety and health concerns.
[Translation]
On October 23 during Oral Question Period our hon. colleague,
the member for Manicouagan, asked the Solicitor General why he
refused to order a public inquiry. As my colleague knows very
well, the solicitor general answered the question a number of
times. He explained his reasons, once again, in a letter to the
member for Charlesbourg October 2.
The solicitor general said it was not necessary at that point to
call a public inquiry, because Labour Canada had already
investigated employees' concerns.
[English]
It is also worthwhile to mention that the hon. member for
Manicouagan submitted an application for access to information at
the Correctional Service of Canada on September 9 to view and
hear the recordings of the events that occurred at Port-Cartier
institution on August 28.
1320
[Translation]
On December 16 the member visited Port-Cartier to view and
listen to the recordings. He watched the video cassettes first
and decided not to listen to the audio cassettes.
He did not raise any specific problem. He did, however,
indicate to the director of the institution that he had met a
number of employees, that things seemed to be going well and
that progress had been made since August.
In the light of these observations, the Solicitor General of
Canada and the Commissioner of Correctional Services Canada
considered the matter closed.
I thank my hon. colleague for expressing his concerns on the
matter.
Mr. Ghislain Fournier: Mr. Speaker, it is true that, in
Port-Cartier, relations are much improved between management,
employees and the union. It is also true, however, that this
motion is six months old and that the events it refers to took
place six months ago.
What I like about this motion is that it allows us to discuss
the judicial system as a whole, a system that I question.
Canadians pay high taxes. Fathers with working children like
myself are still paying school taxes, and I am happy to do so
because we have a responsibility to pay for the education of our
children and grandchildren. It is our civic duty.
While we have a responsibility to pay taxes, a reasonable
quality of life and a safe environment must be provided for our
children and our families.
It is the government's responsibility to protect society.
When I see the justice system releasing inmates before they have
served their full sentence, when I see that it takes years for
cases to get to trial and then they are dropped for lack of a
case, I tell myself that we are not fulfilling our mandate of
protecting society.
The notion is promoted, and the public, whose tax bill is high,
is told “You pay your taxes to have a good quality of life; we
are looking after the public, those who are ill, children,
seniors, the disabled, the mentally ill, and hoodlums as well”.
But they must be looked after in such a way that our society can
again live in freedom, that people are not afraid to go out at
night. I therefore call on the government to overhaul the
entire justice system.
When it does that, it will be serving decent folk.
In my riding I have seen people whose lives were changed by
crimes, such as a child or woman who has been raped. These
people will be marked forever. We cannot ignore these problems.
The system must be reformed and our society protected.
I call on the government to examine the justice system, which is
now in need of reform.
The Deputy Speaker: Since no more members wish to speak and the
motion was not selected as a votable item, the hour provided for
consideration of Private Members' Business has now expired and
the item is dropped from the order paper.
[English]
It being 1.23 p.m., the House stands adjourned until Monday
next at 11 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 1.23 p.m.)