36th Parliament, 1st Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 23
CONTENTS
Wednesday, October 29, 1997
1400
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
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![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CLEARNET
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Cannis |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADIAN WHEAT BOARD
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Charlie Penson |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | TERRY FOX RUN
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADIAN GENERAL-TOWER LIMITED
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Janko Peric |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CHILD LABOUR
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Maud Debien |
1405
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ROYAL CANADIAN LEGION
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Lynn Myers |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOODS AND SERVICES TAX
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Grant McNally |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | IODINE DEFICIENCY DISORDER
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | TOXIC METALS
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bernard Bigras |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | QUEBEC PREMIER
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Marlene Jennings |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | LIBERAL FUNDRAISING
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chuck Strahl |
1410
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | TEAM CANADA INC.
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvon Charbonneau |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | LIBERAL POLICIES
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Stoffer |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | QUEBEC PREMIER
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Denis Coderre |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | FOOD INSPECTION
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Rick Borotsik |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE LATE CHIEF JUSTICE NATHAN NEMETZ
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ted McWhinney |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
1415
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ENVIRONMENT
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Miss Deborah Grey |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Miss Deborah Grey |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Miss Deborah Grey |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PENITENTIARIES
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Allan Kerpan |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Allan Kerpan |
1420
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PROGRAM FOR OLDER WORKER ADJUSTMENT
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien |
1425
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADA PENSION PLAN
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Alexa McDonough |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Paul Martin |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Alexa McDonough |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Paul Martin |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jean J. Charest |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. David Anderson |
1430
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jean J. Charest |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | TOBACCO ADVERTISING
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Grant Hill |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Grant Hill |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PRISON SYSTEM
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Richard Marceau |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
1435
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Richard Marceau |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | AIRBUS
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jack Ramsay |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Anne McLellan |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jack Ramsay |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PRISON SYSTEM
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Michel Gauthier |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Michel Gauthier |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
1440
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADA PENSION PLAN
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Paul Martin |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Paul Martin |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | TIP EMPLOYEES
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Crête |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | TRADE
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Roger Gallaway |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Herb Gray |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | NATIONAL DEFENCE
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Art Hanger |
1445
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Art Hanger |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PROGRAM FOR OLDER WORKER ADJUSTMENT
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvon Godin |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | FISHERIES
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Svend J. Robinson |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. David Anderson |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HIGHWAY SYSTEM
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. André Harvey |
1450
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. David M. Collenette |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. André Harvey |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. David M. Collenette |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | NATIONAL PARKS
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Nancy Karetak-Lindell |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Mitchell |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE ENVIRONMENT
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bernard Bigras |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | JUSTICE
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Mancini |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Anne McLellan |
1455
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | IMMIGRATION
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Scott Brison |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | TOURIST INDUSTRY
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Eugène Bellemare |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. John Manley |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PACIFIC SALMON TREATY
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Duncan |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. David Anderson |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | TOBACCO LEGISLATION
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Pauline Picard |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Allan Rock |
1500
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PRESENCE IN GALLERY
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | The Speaker |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | POINT OF ORDER
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![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Tabling of Document
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![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. David Anderson |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PRIVILEGE
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Canada Pension Plan Investment Board
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chuck Strahl |
1505
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Don Boudria |
1510
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | The Speaker |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
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![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
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![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Official Languages
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Sheila Finestone |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Procedure and House Affairs
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
1515
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PARLIAMENT OF CANADA ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-13. Introduction and first reading
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Don Boudria |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
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![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Procedure and House Affairs
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![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion for concurrence
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PETITIONS
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Labelling of alcoholic beverages
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![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Szabo |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Public Safety Officers Compensation Fund
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Szabo |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | The Family
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Blaikie |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Criminal Code
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Blaikie |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Goods and Services Tax
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nelson Riis |
1520
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Taxation
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nelson Riis |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Human Rights
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Brent St. Denis |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Nuclear Weapons
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Brent St. Denis |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
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![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | National Defence
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![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion moved and agreed to
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![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT ORDERS
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![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PARLIAMENT OF CANADA ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Don Boudria |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-13. Second reading
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![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Don Boudria |
1525
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Randy White |
1530
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
1535
1540
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bill Blaikie |
1545
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
1550
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Don Boudria |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Louis Plamondon |
1555
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
1600
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MACKENZIE VALLEY RESOURCE MANAGEMENT ACT
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![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-6. Second reading
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![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Reed Elley |
1605
1610
1615
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bernard Patry |
1620
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Keith Martin |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Charles Caccia |
1625
1630
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bernard Patry |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gerald Keddy |
1635
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Division on motion deferred
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![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | INCOME TAX CONVENTIONS IMPLEMENTATION ACT, 1997
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![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Don Boudria |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | DNA IDENTIFICATION ACT
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![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
1640
1645
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Allan Kerpan |
1650
1655
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Richard Marceau |
1700
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Mancini |
1705
1710
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter MacKay |
1715
1720
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nick Discepola |
1725
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | MACKENZIE VALLEY RESOURCE MANAGEMENT ACT
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-6. Second reading
|
1750
1800
(Division 21)
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion agreed to
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![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | NATIONAL SHIPBUILDING POLICY
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Herron |
1805
1810
1815
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Walt Lastewka |
1820
1825
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Werner Schmidt |
1830
1835
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Michel Guimond |
1840
1845
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Stoffer |
1850
1855
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
1900
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Health
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
1905
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Joseph Volpe |
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Public Works
|
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gilles Bernier |
1910
![V](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ovid L. Jackson |
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 23
![](/web/20061116192223im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/crest2.gif)
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Wednesday, October 29, 1997
The House met at 2 p.m.
Prayers
1400
The Speaker: As is our practice on Wednesday we will now
sing O Canada, and we will be led by the hon. member for
Halton.
[Editor's Note: Members sang the national anthem]
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
CLEARNET
Mr. John Cannis (Scarborough Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I rise today to recognize the company whose headquarters have
just relocated to my riding of Scarborough Centre.
Clearnet is a Canadian controlled and managed company which is
on the leading edge of wireless communications. In just three
short years Clearnet has increased its employment by more than
six times to well over 1,000 employees and is expected to create
several thousand more jobs across Canada.
This company's success is an example of what our government
hopes will be the future for all Canadians in the next
millennium. Our commitment to invest in knowledge based
economies such as telecommunications will help success stories
like Clearnet become the norm. Keeping Canada and Canadians on
the leading edge is our ultimate goal.
Not only do I want to welcome Clearnet, but I congratulate it on
its tremendous success which I hope will continue in the future.
* * *
CANADIAN WHEAT BOARD
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it
looks like the minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board
has a death wish for the board. How else can we explain his
erratic behaviour? Let us review the facts which go back several
years.
Farmers are unhappy and want change so the minister hand picks a
committee to make recommendations. When he does not like the
recommendations, he asks for direct consultation. He asks people
to write him. He does not like that either. Then he holds a
plebiscite but he does not ask the question that captures the
debate in the farming community. Then he introduces Bill C-72, a
bill that nobody likes. It dies on the Order Paper. Then the
phoenix that rises from the ashes is even worse. In the new
bill, Bill C-4, he has made provisions to include commodities
such as canola, oats and flax that are not presently under the
jurisdiction of the board.
Just when you think it cannot get any worse, it does. If there
is anything that is going to cause the Canadian Wheat Board to
die, it is a minister who has shown how little he understands
about what farmers want.
* * *
TERRY FOX RUN
Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, once
again this year Canadians and people around the world took part
in Terry Fox runs to support cancer research. In Peterborough
riding, runs in Havelock, Lakefield and Peterborough itself
raised thousands of dollars. So once again did inmates of the
Warkworth Institution.
But this year as last, our high schools deserve special mention.
Nine schools, among them St. Peters, Crestwood, PCVS, Lakefield,
Norwood and Bethany Hills raised more than $130,000 and beat last
year's record of $118,000. St. Peter's alone raised $40,000.
Crestwood is the leading high school in Canada for Terry Fox
contributions during the last decade.
When Terry passed through Peterborough city and county 17 years
ago, he could not have imagined the outpouring of good he was
triggering. Our thanks to all those who take part in Terry Fox
runs around the world.
* * *
CANADIAN GENERAL-TOWER LIMITED
Mr. Janko Peric (Cambridge, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Canadian
General-Tower of Cambridge, a leading North American manufacturer
of vinyl car interiors and other vinyl products, today received
the Environmental Management Award from the Financial Post.
CGT's environmental management plan impacts on every decision
that is made from the top of the company through to the plant
floor.
A founding sponsor of the Ontario Children's Groundwater
Festival, Canadian General-Tower is a company with vision, a
company with pride in its home community of Cambridge and above
all a company always ready to face challenges and to lead by
example. I congratulate CGT on this and its many other
achievements. I also welcome Mr. Gord Chaplin to the House
today.
* * *
[Translation]
CHILD LABOUR
Mrs. Maud Debien (Laval East, BQ): Mr. Speaker, a meeting is
being held this week in Oslo, where ministers, and leaders of
labour organizations and NGOs are discussing the serious problem of
child labour.
Representatives of more than 40 countries will be trying to
find solutions to the most serious forms of child labour: slavery,
prostitution and unsafe work. The Bloc Quebecois salutes and fully
supports this endeavour.
The Bloc Quebecois is aware that forced child labour is
primarily the consequence of poverty and underdevelopment.
The drastic cuts to government aid to development imposed by the
Liberal government are not likely to lead to any improvement in
this situation.
We call upon the government to act promptly to follow up on
the report by the Committee on Foreign Affairs and International
Trade on the exploitation of child labour and to conclude
development pacts to eliminate what we consider a blot on the
record of humanity.
* * *
1405
[English]
ROYAL CANADIAN LEGION
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I am proud today to rise and advise you of a special occasion
which occurred on October 25 and October 26 in New Hamburg,
Ontario. The New Hamburg Branch 532 of the Royal Canadian Legion
celebrated its 45th anniversary.
The members of this branch are widely recognized for the many
hours of community service which they perform each year. In
particular their support of minor sports programs is truly
exemplary of the important role they play in the development of
the community.
On behalf of all constituents of Waterloo—Wellington I wish to
commend the New Hamburg Royal Canadian Legion on its record of
public service. In particular the 10 continuous and charter
members from 1952 to 1997 should be acknowledged for their
dedication.
* * *
GOODS AND SERVICES TAX
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
this Liberal government has begun its second mandate with the
mission statement “We never met a tax we did not like”.
One of the first times I ever wrote to a politician was to
oppose the GST on what was deemed a luxury item, diaper rash
cream for my daughter. My daughter is now seven years old and
that GST rash is still burning butts across the country. Now the
Prime Minister has adopted that diaper rashed baby as his own and
Uncle Brian is smiling.
Last week the government stated that it would turn this lemon
into lemonade. All the sugar in Canada cannot make GST lemonade
sweet enough for any hardworking Canadian to swallow.
We ask what is next. Tainted HST Kool-Aid?
* * *
IODINE DEFICIENCY DISORDER
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
October is IDD month. IDD stands for iodine deficiency disorder,
which is the single greatest cause of preventable brain damage
and mental disability in the world today.
More than 1.5 billion people, including approximately 500
million children, in more than 115 countries are estimated to be
at risk of having IDD.
To prevent IDD a person needs just one teaspoon of iodine over a
lifetime. Every 5¢ raised will save a life by providing one
person iodine in their diet.
Kiwanis International has taken on the challenge of eliminating
iodine deficiency disorder by the year 2000. As an honorary
member of the Ottawa-Vanier Kiwanis Club, I am proud to be a part
of this effort.
We have with us today in the gallery representatives of the
Kiwanis movement and on our behalf I welcome them.
* * *
[Translation]
TOXIC METALS
Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont, BQ): Mr. Speaker, scientific
analyses that have been unearthed by Greenpeace indicate that PVC
plastic items manufactured for use by children contain dangerous
concentrations of two toxic metals: lead and cadmium. The list of
such products that can be bought in Quebec and in Canada speaks
volumes: toys, rain wear, backpacks, and video game cable
coverings.
Lead poisoning is widely recognized as one of the most serious
threats to children's health.
Exposure to even extremely low doses causes permanent nervous
system damage and decreased intelligence.
In this context, how can this government explain that, this
very morning, thousands of children went to school carrying toxic
backpacks? It is unacceptable for there to be only voluntary
measures in this area. The government must take its head out of
the sand and concern itself with children's health, not only
through the anti-tobacco legislation but also through legislation
to protect them from products containing toxic metals.
* * *
QUEBEC PREMIER
Ms. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, you know as well as I do, and as do all members of this House
and indeed all Canadians, that our country, Canada, is internationally
renowned as a great democratic society.
Like me, you know too that our government is also recognized as a
very democratic government. There are great democrats, not so great
democrats and, dare I say, petty democrats.
So, when Premier Bouchard attacks the Prime Minister of Canada for
deciding to allow a free vote on the proposal to amend section 93 for
the Quebec school system, it is clear, and you know it as well as I do,
that our Prime Minister is a great democrat and Premier Bouchard a—I
don't think I need to finish the sentence.
* * *
[English]
LIBERAL FUNDRAISING
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, we
have uncovered the top 10 lines used by Liberal fundraisers in
their successful efforts to squeeze money from prospective
businesses.
Line number 10: If you give it, the cabinet ministers will
come.
Line number 9: Never have so many given so much for such
obvious rewards.
1410
Line number 8: Come on, everybody is doing it.
Line number 7: The end justifies the means.
Line number 6: It is better to give so that you can receive.
Line number 5: The answer is in the mail and trust me, you will
like the answer.
Line number 4: These opportunities usually only come once in a
lifetime, although in this case it comes once every time you
apply for a grant.
Line number 3: If you think we can be influenced by as little
as $3,000 or $4,000, let me tell you this to your face, you are
right.
Line number 2: Of course it may be that you will receive the
grant without a donation. I mean, anything is possible.
The number one line used by federal fundraisers to squeeze money
out of prospective business people: Cheques are fine, but cash
is better.
* * *
[Translation]
TEAM CANADA INC.
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau (Anjou—Rivière-des-Prairies, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, our government is delivering on its promises with respect to
employment support.
In the red book, on page 34, we read that “a new Liberal government
will create a Trade Promotion Agency that builds on the Team Canada
approach to international business”.
To follow up on this commitment, the Minister of International
Trade announced a few days ago a series of new measures to better
co-ordinate trade promotion initiatives by Canadian businesses
already on the export market or looking to be.
Under the umbrella of Team Canada Inc., all public and private
stakeholders interested in exports will form an on-going network, we
will have more trade commissioners abroad, and a special small business
unit will be established within the department, not to mention the 24
hour a day telephone and computer information services that will be made
available.
This is good news for businesses in Canada and in my riding of
Anjou—Rivières-des-Prairies, whose growth depends on finding new export
opportunities on the international market. This is good news because it
will result in job creation.
* * *
[English]
LIBERAL POLICIES
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Eastern Shore, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, recently Canadians have been treated to the spectacle of
two Atlantic Liberal premiers opposing federal Liberal policies
they once supported when they were members of the government.
When he was a member of this House, the premier of Nova Scotia
supported the HST. Now that he sees that the HST does not work,
he comes to Ottawa with hat in hand asking the finance minister
to reduce the HST premiums.
When he was federal Minister of Fisheries and Oceans the premier
of Newfoundland allowed the department's policy to destroy the
livelihood of Newfoundland fishers. Now that he sees how wrong
he was, the premier wants the Standing Committee on Fisheries and
Oceans to go to Newfoundland to re-examine the early cutoff of
the Atlantic groundfish strategy that would devastate fishers in
his province.
Given this double flip flop, Canadians now wonder if the present
Minister of Fisheries and Oceans or the Minister of Finance ever
became the premier of a province whether they would oppose their
own policies because they do not work.
* * *
[Translation]
QUEBEC PREMIER
Mr. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the
leader of the Bloc Quebecois' head office, Quebec's premier designate
Lucien Bouchard, concluded that the Prime Minister of Canada was washing
his hands of the fate of the amendments designed to help establish
linguistic school boards in Quebec by allowing a free vote on this
issue.
How dishonest, how hypocritical, how heretical on the—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: The hon. member for Brandon—Souris.
* * *
[English]
FOOD INSPECTION
Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Mr. Speaker, I
rise today on the concerns Canadians have about our food
inspections. Consumers need to be assured that the food they eat
is as safe as it can be. There are a number of reasons for this
cause of concern.
With the creation of the Canada Food Inspection Agency, the
government has estimated that it will save $100 million over the
next few years, hopefully not at the expense of the consumers.
Recent reports have suggested that food imports arriving at
Canada's borders are not being inspected thoroughly enough. The
November 1996 auditor general's report stated that the level of
inspection activity aimed at different food products may not be
consistent with their potential risk to human health.
It is time for the federal government to recognize that there
are improvements which should be made to our food inspection. The
questions that have been raised about our food inspection system
deserve to be examined by a parliamentary committee. The CFIA
must take a stronger federal role in the area of food safety.
* * *
THE LATE CHIEF JUSTICE NATHAN NEMETZ
Mr. Ted McWhinney (Vancouver Quadra, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Nathan, Sonny, Nemetz, who died on October 21 had a distinguished
career in the professional practice of law in Vancouver and then
served for many years on the Supreme Court of British Columbia
being later named as chief justice of the province.
He and equally his wife, Bel Newman, who predeceased him,
provided intellectual leadership with a very strong liberal
activist bent within the Vancouver Jewish community and also in
the more general political and social thinking within the
province.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
1415
[English]
ENVIRONMENT
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
Canada is now the only country left in the G-7 that has not
revealed its targets for greenhouse gas reductions.
The Kyoto summit is only five weeks away and the Liberals have
not made up their minds. If all our trading partners have their
act together, surely it is time the Liberals made their position
clear on what they will be doing. Canadians taxpayers,
environmentalists and the industry need to know.
Why is it that Canadians always have to pay the price for more
Liberal cabinet squabbles? When will they produce the real
targets?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have nothing to add to what I said yesterday. We are
consulting with the provinces and with the stakeholders. We have
made a very clear statement that we want our position to be
better than the American one. We are working at the same time
with other nations to develop a consensus.
We could just grandstand here, but instead we are being very
practical in our efforts to find a solution that will be
acceptable to everybody in Kyoto. We have to involve both the
industrialized nations and the developing nations.
At least we know we want to do something about climate change,
but I know the Reform Party has absolutely no interest—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Edmonton North.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
yes, we are concerned about all these things. The prime minister
has already said that they have agreed to sign whatever comes up
in Kyoto. They are doing this absolutely backward.
The Kyoto deal reminds Canadians a lot of the failed Meech Lake
accord. Back then a bunch of suits got together behind closed
doors and decided what would be a constitutional proposal, and no
Canadians liked it.
It is the same thing today. The Liberals refuse to wait for the
provinces to agree. They refuse to make any proposals public,
yet they have guaranteed that they will sign anything that comes
forward.
What makes our prime minister think that Canadians would—
The Speaker: The hon. prime minister.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we are going to Kyoto to negotiate with everybody. At
this moment no consensus has been reached at this moment between
nations. We are consulting Canadians. We are consulting with
people abroad and we want to make progress in Kyoto.
I know the Reform Party has no interest in protecting the
environment and has no interest in the problem of climate change
around the world.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
they need to get their story straight. It seems as though the
prime minister is more concerned about looking like a big time
operator overseas than developing a made in Canada workable
solution.
He brags about how he will beat Bill Clinton at whatever he
does. Surely that is not the first priority of the government.
Why are the minister and the prime minister more concerned about
winning a little ego war with Bill Clinton than listening to
Canadians? Whose deal is this anyhow?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have explained to everybody the position of the
Canadian government.
We on this side of the House think it is important to consult
with the provinces and the stakeholders. I can see now that
members of the Reform Party do not want us to talk with the
Alberta government or the Saskatchewan government. They do not
want us to talk with environmental groups. They do not want us
to talk with anybody.
As usual we will have a good and reasonable Canadian position
that will be completely acceptable to the Canadian people.
* * *
PENITENTIARIES
Mr. Allan Kerpan (Blackstrap, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the solicitor general, so I will speak very
slowly.
We have the minutes of a meeting of the inmate committee of the
Joyceville Penitentiary. We showed the minister a copy of this
document last week. The minutes show that the assistant deputy
warden is actually setting up a payment plan so prisoners can pay
off illegal drug debts. Last week the minister said this was
bad, and that is good.
What is he going to do about it?
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, as usual the member is not accurate.
Mr. Allan Kerpan (Blackstrap, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, here
is another example of this minister's benevolence to help ease
the financial burden of convicted criminals. This one comes from
the outside.
1420
According to public accounts released yesterday, the minister's
department has lent thousands of dollars to criminals on parole
and then his department forgave over $25,000 of these loans. At
least somebody is getting out of debt.
I have a question for the temporary minister. Did he know that
his department was giving loans to criminals and then not even
bothering to collect them?
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we have had repeated questions for two or three weeks
now, none of them based on fact.
I bring to the attention of the House that there are no tattoo
parlours. We are looking for gloves for people. Labour Canada
has been in to visit the kitchens in Kingston and there is no
problem. The inmates in Kingston do not have keys to their
cells.
We cannot take these questions seriously.
* * *
[Translation]
PROGRAM FOR OLDER WORKER ADJUSTMENT
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
next Saturday the BC mine in Black Lake will close down, leaving
300 workers without jobs. More than a third of these workers are
aged 55 and over and their chances of finding other work are
extremely slim, given the high unemployment rate in the region.
An application under the Program for Older Worker Adjustment,
or POWA, was filed on March 17, 1996, while the government did not
terminate the program until March 31, 1997.
Since the active measures the Minister of Human Resources
Development is so proud of do not apply in this case, does the
minister intend to reactivate the application—
The Speaker: The Minister of Human Resources Development.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I do not agree with the assumption
by the Leader of the Bloc Quebecois that active measures do not
apply in this case. I do not think that we should underestimate
workers who, over the years, have acquired experience and skills.
I do not underestimate these workers. On the contrary, I
think they are still capable of re-entering the job market, and our
government has made a perfectly generous and flexible offer with
respect to certain active measures to help them in the coming
weeks.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
it is not a question of underestimating these workers. I met with
them. I, for one, took the trouble to meet with them.
But I remember when the Liberal Party was in opposition and
kept on tabling petitions to extend the POWA program. The Minister
of Human Resources Development should remember that. He should ask
the member for Saint-Léonard to fill him in.
Why will the Minister of Human Resources Development not agree
to the offer made by Minister Harel in a letter dated October 6 in
which she asks that the POWA program be extended?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the POWA application was withdrawn
at the express request of the workers' union, which felt that the
program's benefits were not sufficiently generous later on. Let us
be reasonable.
On the contrary, what has been proposed until now is an
improved POWA program. One of the reasons the program was
terminated was that it was very often unfair and inequitable,
particularly because it applies only to workers over the age of 55.
In the present case, the average age of workers is under 55 and the
program would therefore not even apply to most of the workers we
are talking about.
Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien (Frontenac—Mégantic, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.
Contrary to what they were advocating when they formed the
opposition, the Liberals decided last year to eliminate the program for
older worker adjustment, or POWA.
Will the minister go beyond fine speeches and formally pledge to do
what is necessary to help the victims of the closure of the mine in
Black Lake, giving them access to POWA, as Louise Harel, in Quebec City—
The Speaker: The Minister of Human Resources Development has the
floor.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am meeting with
representatives of these workers immediately after question
period.
I can tell you, however, that my officials have already met with
these people. We put together a $2.5 million package of active measures
to help these workers re-enter the labour market. We are committed to
being flexible by adjusting these measures to their specific situation.
And I believe this is the decent and respectful attitude we must have
toward these people right now.
Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien (Frontenac—Mégantic, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
former minister Young, who led the unemployment insurance reform, had
pledged to establish an income support program to replace POWA.
1425
Will the Minister of Human Resources Development follow up on the
former minister's commitment by establishing an income support program
for older workers or, alternatively, by restoring the original POWA?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am very concerned by the plight of older workers.
It is a problem that affects a number of our fellow citizens across the
country, even though older workers generally fare better than the
younger ones who want to join the labour force.
What I do want to point out is that, if we restore programs, these
will be fairer than POWA. Under that program, a seamstress losing her
job was not entitled to any protection, unless she lost her job as a
result of a mass layoff. POWA was too restrictive.
* * *
[English]
CANADA PENSION PLAN
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Finance. Last night in committee
the finance minister acknowledged that women are forced to depend
disproportionately on benefits they receive from the Canada
pension plan.
We know the CPP changes will affect survivors benefits, death
benefits and reduce benefits overall by 10%.
Will the minister acknowledge that the cuts to CPP benefits
disproportionately affect women? Does the government really
believe it is legitimate to penalize women for the fact they live
longer than men?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, precisely because women depend on the public pension
plans more than do men it is important that we guarantee not only
their survival but their success.
Because of that this government along with the provinces put in
place a series of measures which will guarantee to Canadians
young and old, both men and women, that the public sector pension
plan will be there for them.
This was an agreement among all the provinces. The fact is that
there were differences with two provinces on certain things, but
there were no—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Halifax.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
finance minister gave assurances last night that the government
conducted a gender impact analysis on the CPP changes.
Now that I have seen the study I can understand why the
government was not particularly keen that it see the light of
day. It is a narrow actuarial study. It completely fails to
measure the real economic and social impact on women of the
proposed CPP changes.
How does the study live up to the government's commitment made
in Beijing to submit all government initiatives and legislative
changes to comprehensive and detailed gender analysis?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the consultation document that went out to the country
was agreed to by all provincial governments, including the two
NDP governments, as well as by the federal government.
The NDP was at the table for the discussions. All the issues the
hon. member raises were extensively discussed. We will continue
through track two to deal with a number of issues raised by the
federal government. One of the members from Ottawa raised them,
as well as a number of provincial governments.
* * *
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Hon. Jean J. Charest (Sherbrooke, PC): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development. Last
Friday I met in British Columbia with representatives of the
Community Fisheries Development Centre, Coastal Communities
Network, United Fishermen and Allied Workers Union, and
representatives of the north and aboriginal communities.
Essentially they said that the Mifflin plan had been an
unmitigated disaster that affected their communities disastrously
and that the government had no plan.
When will the human resources development minister come forward
with an adjustment plan for coastal communities on the west
coast? When exactly will he deliver on that? What amount of
money will they put to it?
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if in British Columbia the hon. member
had actually bothered to find out what was taking place, he would
have discovered a document I am happy to table, namely the report
for the first eight months of the employment development program,
indeed had $12.5 million of contracts with the department of the
hon. minister of human development.
The organizations that make up the body, the Community Fisheries
Development Centre, are exactly the same ones that he has
referred to today.
In other words he was either—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Sherbrooke.
1430
Hon. Jean J. Charest (Sherbrooke, PC): Mr. Speaker, I
doubt I can be misinformed. One of the things they told us is
that they could not get a meeting with the minister of fisheries.
Today we learned from Canada's negotiators that the Americans
lacked political will to solve the problem of the Pacific salmon
treaty. Envoys Ruckelshaus and Strangway are in Ottawa this
week, according to the minister of external affairs.
I would like to know from the Prime Minister whether he will
give a mandate to the envoys to report to him and President
Clinton at the APEC conference when they will have their
bilateral so that British Columbians and the coastal communities
can finally see some political will exercised by the government
to solve this problem.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, whenever our man wants to report to me, he can report to
me, and the American envoy will report to the President of the
United States.
I do not think APEC should be mixed up with this problem. We
are in touch with the two gentlemen doing the work. They will
report to the President of the United States and to myself in due
course.
* * *
TOBACCO ADVERTISING
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, tobacco
advertisers have quite a new friend in our health minister as he
allows tobacco ads to be put on racing cars again. He does not
think it is a very big deal. Let me read what one of the tobacco
advertisers had to say. “This Formula One car is the most
powerful advertising space in the world. It will carry your
brand to 1.8 billion TV viewers in 102 countries”.
Since the health minister has publicly admitted that he knows
this decision is not right, why has he caved in to the tobacco
companies?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I hope the hon. member knows better than to swallow the ad copy
of advertisers. Let us instead look at the facts of the case.
The government committed last April to amend the Tobacco Act in
order to permit Formula One racing to happen in Canada. As the
hon. member knows, this is a government that respects its
commitments. We are going to respect it. We are going to
introduce an amendment in the House of Commons to change the
Tobacco Act to that effect.
Let me also point out that Formula One races last 90 minutes
more or less. The Tobacco Act works 365 days a year to
discourage smoking in this country.
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the letter
they sent in April was a stupid idea then and it is a stupid idea
now. The minister actually admitted in public that he is
uncomfortable with this decision.
It is interesting that the health ministers of England, Germany
and France were also uncomfortable with race car ads. What did
they do? They stopped them and their Grand Prix races are just
fine today.
Why did the minister cave in to tobacco companies so that the
health of our youth is affected?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
we are respecting a commitment. The health of our youth, when it
comes to smoking, will be protected by the $100 million the
government is going to spend over the next five years on a
tobacco reduction strategy. That is the way to get kids to stop
smoking. That is the way to prevent young people from starting.
That is the effective measure the government is going to take.
* * *
[Translation]
PRISON SYSTEM
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Solicitor General of Canada.
The Correctional Service of Canada and the warden of the
Leclerc penitentiary joined forces to try to calm our concerns
about the unthinkable situation Mr. Deslauriers has put himself in.
It was all very well for the Correctional Service to say that it
was aware of Mr. Deslauriers' business activities, but a serious
problem of ethics remains.
Is it not a serious error in judgment for the head of a
penitentiary to own and, more importantly, manage a hotel two feet
away from a bikers clubhouse, when we know—
The Speaker: The Solicitor General of Canada.
[English]
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it is very important to point out that yesterday the
members from the Bloc made some serious allegations. They
referred to this hotel as a haven for biker gangs and Hell's
Angels.
We have worked diligently since yesterday to find out if we
could confirm that. We have called the Sûreté du Québec, the
RCMP, the municipality and the mayor. The allegations that were
put have not been established.
I think it is shameful that a 30 year veteran of CSC would be put
under that light.
1435
[Translation]
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker, how can
the solicitor general allow the Correctional Service of Canada to
permit the head of a penitentiary to put himself in such a
vulnerable position vis-à-vis a biker gang? Does acceptance of
this situation not indicate serious negligence?
[English]
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it has to be established that the issue is whether the
hotel we are talking about is a haven for biker gangs. It is
not. Four very reputable law enforcement agencies have
established that is not the case. I think it does a disservice
to a 30 year veteran of the correction service to make such
allegations.
* * *
AIRBUS
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, RCMP Staff
Sergeant Fraser Fiegenwald, the government's fall guy in the
Airbus scandal, quit the force today. Millions of dollars were
doled out to settle Mulroney's legal bills but the government
refused to pay a penny toward Staff Sergeant Fiegenwald's legal
bills. Someone is responsible and must be held accountable for
the $3 million Airbus scandal.
I ask the Prime Minister, who is the next target? Who is the
fall guy that has been lined up to take the blame and to protect
the Liberal government and the former justice minister?
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member undoubtedly
knows that Staff Sergeant Fiegenwald decided to resign
voluntarily from the force today.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Hon. Anne McLellan: That led to a decision by the RCMP
to discontinue its internal investigation against the actions of
Staff Sergeant Fiegenwald. I do not think it would be
appropriate to say anything else about the matter at this time.
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, we have
reached the Liberal utopia of absolutely no accountability.
The Liberals spent millions of dollars fighting Mulroney and
millions more to pay for his legal bills. But they would not pay
a single cent for Staff Sergeant Fiegenwald's legal bills and
they drove him from the force. Is this Liberal Airbus justice?
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the government settled the damages for Mr. Mulroney
because a superior court judge in the province of Quebec said we
had to. It was binding arbitration.
* * *
[Translation]
PRISON SYSTEM
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question
is for the Solicitor General of Canada.
The solicitor general is telling us that he is prepared to
accept the situation the director of the Laval-des-Rapides
penitentiary put himself in.
Given the biker gangs' persuasion tactics, is the minister not
somewhat concerned about his penitentiary director owning a hotel
next door to the Hell's Angels clubhouse, whose members are aware
of the fact and could exert pressure on him?
[English]
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I would bring to the member's attention that the
director we are talking about just recently transferred 12 biker
offenders from his institution to maximum security. Two Hell's
Angels challenged that transfer. Last Friday the court found in
favour of the director and the biker gang members were
transferred to maximum security. I do not think that suggests he
is in league with the biker gangs.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the minister
should understand that the prison director's error in judgment lies
not in allowing in two, ten or a dozen Hell's Angels. That is not
the point. The error in judgment is owning a hotel beside the
clubhouse and being subject to constant pressure from a highly
criminal element that is not shy about making itself heard.
[English]
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I can only say after the fact that it has not been
established that the hotel is a hangout for biker gangs. In
fact, the RCMP, the municipality and the mayor of the community
have all said that. It is very unfair to that gentleman that
these people would impugn his reputation with nothing more than
that.
* * *
1440
CANADA PENSION PLAN
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the latest report of the chief actuary for the Canada
pension plan shows that under the finance minister's CPP pyramid
scheme, our children and their children will get only a 1.8%
return for a lifetime of CPP investment.
How can the minister disagree with his own actuary that he is
shafting every young person in this country?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the chief actuary said that if the federal government
and the provinces did not act that the premiums would have gone
to 14.4%. We acted and as a result of that they will be capped at
9.9% There is no cost-free way of solving this problem.
Reform Party members have an obligation to tell Canadians how
they would handle a $600 billion liability. If they are not
prepared to do that, then they should admit that they are going
to renege on an obligation to working Canadians and those who
have already retired.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, Canadians are noticing that every time the minister is
asked to justify his pyramid scheme he changes the subject. He
wants to talk about anything but his own plan.
Let us talk about the $600 billion unfunded liability. There is
a Liberal-Tory national debt of $600 billion that is already
crippling our children's future. Now the minister admits that
the CPP puts them another $600 billion in the hole. Young
Canadians are being saddled with a second national debt.
Will the finance minister admit—
The Speaker: The Minister of Finance.
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, for the first time in two years of debate the Reform
Party finally admits that there is an existing liability of $600
billion.
Last night in committee, with the leader of the Reform Party at
the table, there was an expectation that instead of sound bytes
and political rhetoric, Reform Party members would tell us how
they intend to deal with it. They refused to do so. For two
hours Reform members gave us smoke and mirrors.
Tell us, how much longer are you going to try to flog it by
young Canadians? When are you going to come—
* * *
[Translation]
TIP EMPLOYEES
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les
Basques, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human
Resources Development.
Starting next January 1, the Government of Quebec intends to
require all tip employees to report all of their income. Therefore,
unemployment insurance benefits for tip employees will be determined
according to their total income, but this requires a minor regulatory
amendment that will greatly simplify income reporting.
Can the minister make a firm commitment that Revenue Canada will
make this regulatory amendment before the end of 1997?
[English]
Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal (Minister of National Revenue,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for his
question. I am working with my colleagues, the Minister of
Finance and the Minister of Human Resources Development, to
respond to the letter which I received from Mr. Landry to look at
EI earnings on their change in the way in which they collect
their taxes on tips.
As soon as we are able to look at the details of that we will be
getting back to Mr. Landry.
* * *
TRADE
Mr. Roger Gallaway (Sarnia—Lambton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
because of the large number of departments involved, my question
is for the Deputy Prime Minister.
Following the passage of Bill C-29 last spring, the MMT bill,
Ethyl Corporation launched a NAFTA trade challenge. Can the
Deputy Prime Minister tell us what is the status of this case?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the panel to respond to the NAFTA trade challenge was
launched on September 2. There was a meeting October 2 to
discuss procedural matters. The next meeting of the tribunal
will be in February.
I am sure we all look forward to a fair outcome in the interests
of all sides.
* * *
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the defence minister likes to talk about this new era of openness
in his department, yet yesterday in committee I asked the defence
minister about an incident involving a stray missile in the
Pacific. Surprise, surprise, neither the defence minister nor
his chief of defence staff had any idea of what I was talking
about, but his department sure did.
If the department is so open, why was the minister kept in the
dark?
1445
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I indicated to the hon. member
yesterday, I would look into the matter and have looked into the
matter. Yes, there was during exercises in the middle of the
Pacific back in the spring some firing of missiles. These are
unarmed missiles. Some of them failed in their firing but that
is why they have practice, so that in real conditions these kinds
of things will not happen.
There was absolutely no damage to personal property, absolutely
nobody injured.
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the minister is trying to confuse the issue by talking about a
couple of other matters that happened on the Vancouver. I
am talking about what happened on the Huron. The minister
is trying to confuse the issue. He knows it.
In the past few months the privacy commissioner, the information
commissioner, the Somalia commissioner all reported there is a
lack of openness at defence headquarters. I do not know how much
more evidence the minister is going to need.
The next time a missile goes astray is the minister going to get
a ship to shore or is the message going to come via carrier
pigeon?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member is confused
because back when this incident happened there was a report in
the Vancouver Sun and in other western media. It seems
that the hon. member is taking a long time to catch up with his
press clippings.
* * *
[Translation]
PROGRAM FOR OLDER WORKER ADJUSTMENT
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the BC mine
near Thetford Mines will close Saturday. Three hundred jobs will be lost
and this will have a serious impact on the region's economy.
There have been repeated requests for an adjustment program for
older workers, but the Minister of Human Resources Development has
rejected them all, saying that the workers had to report to the
employment centre. Does this government take pleasure in seeing people
suffer? Because of such heartless policies from the Liberals, all the
communities in Thetford Mines will suffer.
Is the minister willing to set up an early retirement program for
the BC mine workers, so that he can show that he cares a bit for the
people losing their jobs?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the general issue of older workers is a great
concern because there is no doubt that many of them have difficulty
re-entering the labour force.
I do know however that many of them prefer to work again when they
still have 10 or 15 years ahead of them, instead of receiving money to
stay home and do nothing. That is why this government is strongly
committed to policies that actively help these people re-enter the
labour force.
I am being asked to resuscitate a POWA program whose own criteria
made it extremely unfair and unjust. It was great for people who could
enter the program, but the majority—
The Speaker: The member from Burnaby—Douglas.
* * *
[English]
FISHERIES
Mr. Svend J. Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the minister of fisheries. As the minister
knows, the recent report by Yves Fortier, Canada's chief Pacific
salmon negotiator, noted that B.C. fishers and coastal
communities wonder whether their livelihoods will survive another
season of U.S. greed and violations of the treaty and MOU.
Does the minister endorse in full this very significant Fortier
report and, specifically, will he insist that the equity issue be
settled as a priority and oppose any U.S. efforts to two track
these negotiations?
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Mr. Fortier was our very distinguished
negotiator in the very frustrating four years that led up to the
impasse this summer which is left over from the Mulroney
negotiated treaty of 1985. We certainly think he has outlined a
situation, an historical build-up and the issues of equity and
conservation effectively. Shortly after I took office I indicated
my support for Mr. Fortier's work and I still have full
confidence in him.
* * *
[Translation]
HIGHWAY SYSTEM
Mr. André Harvey (Chicoutimi, PC): Mr. Speaker, my question is
for the Minister of Transport.
The minister held an important meeting with the Quebec
Minister of Transport, Jacques Brassard, who is also the MNA for
Lac Saint-Jean.
Could the minister confirm that the priorities defined by the
Quebec minister included highway 175, the most deadly highway in
the country? I would like to know whether this road is one of the
priorities the Quebec minister indicated.
1450
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I did indeed recently meet my Quebec counterpart, Mr.
Brassard, and we discussed a number of topics in the area of
transport.
As he knows, this government is concerned about the national
highway system. I would point out that since the last election we
have invested $9.1 million on roads in his own riding. I think
that is a strong response by our government.
Mr. André Harvey (Chicoutimi, PC): Mr. Speaker, I was not
elected to pretend to be humiliated during each Oral Question
Period, but this agreement was signed in 1993 and has lapsed.
I would like to know whether the minister is prepared to make
a commitment before this House and the 300,000 people I represent
to make Talbot boulevard, the deadliest road in Quebec, a priority?
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, once the federal budget is balanced, perhaps we can talk
about more money for road repairs, but not right now.
* * *
[English]
NATIONAL PARKS
Mrs. Nancy Karetak-Lindell (Nunavut, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Secretary of State for Parks.
In June 1996 Tuktut Nogait national park was created. Recent
concerns have surfaced surrounding the already agreed to borders
of the park.
[Editor's Note: Member spoke in Inuktitut]
[English]
What is the Secretary of State for Parks doing to ensure that
the borders of Tuktut Nogait national park are protected?
Hon. Andy Mitchell (Secretary of State (Parks), Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the establishment of the park is subject to a tripartite
agreement. As part of that agreement, all parties would have to
agree to a change in the boundaries. As a signator to that
agreement, the federal government has no intention of changing
those boundaries.
With the amendments I intend to bring to the National Parks Act
shortly, we will be establishing this as an official national
park in the near future.
* * *
[Translation]
THE ENVIRONMENT
Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is
for the Prime Minister.
Canada remains the only G-7 country that does not have a
position on the reduction of greenhouse gases in preparation for
the Kyoto summit next week.
My question is a very simple one: How can the Prime Minister
justify Canada's not yet having a position in preparation for the
Kyoto summit, when the European Union, which is made up of 15
sovereign countries, managed long ago to reach agreement around a
clear objective?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I had the opportunity to answer that question both yesterday and
today. We are in the process of consulting the provinces, the
petroleum industry and the environmentalists in order to find a
solution to the Canadian problem.
At the same time, we have positioned ourselves for discussions
to ensure that progress is made in Kyoto. At this time, there are
three different basic positions, and we are trying to get the
supporters of those three positions to find a compromise in Kyoto
which will advance the situation and make it possible to control
the problems related to the global climate.
* * *
[English]
JUSTICE
Mr. Peter Mancini (Sydney—Victoria, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday the inquiry into the wrongful conviction of Guy-Paul
Morin heard allegations of judicial bias. In recent months the
Supreme Court of Canada has been critical of federal court
judges, and a retiring supreme court justice has called for a new
process for judicial appointments.
The Minister of Justice has said she is open to suggestions.
Will the minister take action to restore the public's faith in
our justice system by creating a special committee of the House
to examine proposals to reform the judicial appointment process?
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I have said many times in
this House, I think Canadians, quite rightly, have the highest
degree of confidence in the integrity of the Canadian judiciary.
I have also indicated on a number of occasions in this House
that I am willing to look at mechanisms by which I can receive
greater input from interested Canadians and other interested
stakeholders as it relates to the judicial process.
* * *
1455
IMMIGRATION
Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Mr. Speaker, Section
110 of the 1996 U.S. illegal immigration reform act will create
long lines for Canadians at U.S. entry points, delaying and
discouraging legitimate trade and travel.
This act was before Congress for 13 months. Where were Canadian
diplomats during this period? Amending a bill that is already
passed in Congress is very difficult.
Will the Minister of Foreign Affairs table a list of the
specific representations made by our ambassador in Washington
during the 13 month period?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I have to say that it would be a very long list to
table. Within our embassy in Washington we have a very active
program to ensure we are able to protect Canadian interest.
I give the hon. member full assurance that we are now working
with a coalition of American business organizations, American
congressmen, senators and others to ensure the open border stays
open and that we are able to maintain the full flow of goods.
I enlist his support in this very important cause to maintain
this open border.
* * *
[Translation]
TOURIST INDUSTRY
Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Carleton—Gloucester, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Industry.
[English]
In an article that appeared in yesterday's media, Canadians were
given the impression that Canada has lost ground in the tourist
industry.
[Translation]
Can the minister confirm that Canada's tourist industry will
continue to play a lead role world wide?
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
would like to underline the importance of tourism, an industry that
brings in $42 billion in revenue every year, in Canada.
[English]
I also want to underline the importance of the formation of the
Canadian tourism commission in 1994. It has not only created a
partnership with provincial governments and the industry itself,
it has not only increased Canadian promotion of tourism products
internationally, but it has resulted in moving Canada from 12th
to 10th place in tourism receipts and increased—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Vancouver Island North.
* * *
PACIFIC SALMON TREATY
Mr. John Duncan (Vancouver Island North, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the United States caught $650 million more in salmon
than allowed under the Pacific salmon treaty.
The Liberal government has known since 1993 that this has been
happening. We now know that the Liberal's own negotiator advised
that the U.S. federal government, and not the states, is
responsible for the treaty.
Why has the government ignored the advice of its negotiator and
taken a softball approach to the United States government?
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have known for four years, ever since
this Mulroney negotiated treaty failed, that there was no
provision for continuing and no provision for dispute resolution.
We tried year after year to get the Americans to come to the
table so they would recognize the need for continuing
arrangements for fishing. In most of those years we have been
successful with the north and south regional arrangements or with
an overall annual arrangement.
There is no question that American fishermen have taken larger
numbers of fish than we feel they are entitled to and which the
treaty suggests they should have.
* * *
[Translation]
TOBACCO LEGISLATION
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question
is for the Minister of Health.
Yesterday, the Minister of Health said that he would amend the
anti-tobacco legislation so as to allow international Grand Prix
races to be held. The secretary of state for regional development
indicated, and I quote: “It goes without saying that the Formula
1 changes will apply to all events”.
Will the minister confirm the statement by his colleague, the
secretary of state for regional development, that the measures
applied in the case of the Grand Prix races will apply to all major
sports and cultural events?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in
recent weeks I have stated this government's position many times.
We must and we will keep the promise made last April.
I am now working with my colleagues, in particular the
minister responsible for economic development in Quebec, on the
amendment. I would suggest that the hon. member wait until I am
prepared to table this amendment.
* * *
1500
[English]
PRESENCE IN GALLERY
The Speaker: I would like to draw to members'
attention to the presence in the gallery of His Excellency Alvaro
Ramos, Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Eastern Republic of
Uruguay.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
The Speaker: Colleagues, I have two points of order and a
question of privilege. I am going to do it a little bit in
reverse today because I think the points of order might be a
little shorter and I want to give the hon. member a few minutes
at least to put his question of privilege.
* * *
POINT OF ORDER
TABLING OF DOCUMENT
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, earlier in question period I made
reference to a document that I would like to table at this time.
It is entitled “Employment Development Program: Program Report,
January 1997 to September 1997, of the Community Fisheries
Development Centre”. In it, in particular in annex one, you
will discover the $12.5 million in programs that this one
organization has from Human Resources Development Canada.
The Speaker: Of course we will table the document. The
other point of order has been withdrawn so I am going to go
directly to the question of privilege.
* * *
PRIVILEGE
CANADA PENSION PLAN INVESTMENT BOARD
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise today on a question of privilege to bring to your attention
an issue which I think compromises the rights and privileges of
all members of this House.
I speak in particular of a news release dated Thursday, October
23 brought to my attention last night in which the Government of
Canada announced that provincial and federal governments had
constituted a nominating committee to nominate candidates for the
new Canada pension plan investment board.
This nominating committee consists of 10 members and will be
responsible for drawing up a list of recommended candidates for
the new CPP investment board proposed by Bill C-2 presently
before this House.
From this list the federal Minister of Finance will select 12
directors, including a chairperson for this board. This is what
the finance minister is quoted in his release as having said,
that “the nominating committee will play a key role in selecting
the CPP investment board”.
The press release ends by saying that the nominating committee
is expected to submit its list of recommended candidates to the
federal finance minister and the finance ministers of the
participating provinces before the end of this year.
The nominating committee I have just described is provided for
under clause 10(2) of Bill C-2 which reads:
The minister may establish a committee to advise the minister on
the appointment of directors. The committee shall consist of a
representative designated by the minister and a representative of
each participating province designated by the appropriate
provincial minister for that province.
I want to refer to two precedents from Hansard.
1505
On March 9, 1990 Speaker John Fraser ruled on a question of
privilege brought by the member for Kamloops in which a pamphlet
regarding the GST was disseminated by the government prior to the
passage of the GST legislation. Speaker Fraser ruled it not to be
a question of privilege but only because the pamphlet stated
within it that the legislation was before the House and that the
information in the pamphlet was only a proposal.
The second precedent also concerns the goods and services tax.
The member for Cape Breton—East Richmond brought a point of
privilege on March 16, 1991 on exactly the same point. Speaker
Fraser once again ruled on March 25, 1991 that it did not
constitute a point of privilege, on the grounds that the
newsletter indicated that the information it contained were
proposals only. Specifically he decided that the minister had not
acted as if the House had already passed the budget measure
approving the GST and that the advertising did not prejudice a
future decision of the House.
The situation before us is similar but much, much more serious.
Obviously the Minister of Finance has already designated a
committee defined under clause 10 of the bill. He clearly expects
the committee to meet, to incur expenses and to make important
decisions that will obligate the Government of Canada in various
ways, in other words to perform a function that is essential to
the thrust of Bill C-2.
The question of privilege arises in that the bill only went to
the Standing Committee on Finance for consideration on second
reading yesterday. Members of the committee may want to alter
clause 10 of the bill and the government is proceeding as if
Parliament has already given the minister authority to act under
that section when it clearly has not done so.
If the government is allowed by the House to proceed to enact a
bill that has not been passed by the House, a dangerous precedent
will have been set, a precedent that undercuts the authority of
Parliament and derogates from the rights and privileges of every
member to have input into legislation prior to its enactment.
Once again the action considered today is a matter of privilege
for the reasons I have already stated. The minister has actually
designated a committee under an act yet to be passed or even
considered in the standing committee, and the nominating
committee has already been given a deadline to submit names as
the bill directs if it were to be passed in its present form.
Since the bill only went to committee yesterday, this matter is
very timely and is very time sensitive.
Mr. Speaker, I would urge you to give this matter careful
consideration so that the rights and privileges of all members of
Parliament and ultimately the rights and privileges of all
citizens of Canada will be protected and preserved and that the
proper constituted authority is followed.
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, there are a number of things
that the Chair may want to consider before it rules as to whether
or not this a prima facie question of privilege.
First the member referred to proposed Bill C-2 and that
recommendations would be made by the minister. In other words,
in both instances where the hon. member across the way made such
references, he made references to things that were not
definitive, namely a proposal and a recommendation as opposed to
a specific action of appointment.
Second, when referring to the March 9, 1990 decision, the hon.
member recognized that the action at that time did not constitute
a question of privilege. Again in 1991 the advertising at that
time was not deemed to be a question of privilege because,
according to the hon. member and I agree with him, it did not
jeopardize the passage of the bill.
One would have to be pretty hard pressed today in the House of
Commons to arrive at the judgment that the House would be
influenced to pass or not pass the bill, as to whether or not a
proposal has been made or recommended to have people to sit on an
advisory committee to recommend others to sit on a future
committee to be put in place after the passage of the bill. As
such, it would be overstating the facts considerably.
No one is saying that the government in that advertisement will
put this bill in place or put in place the eventual board of
directors whether the bill is passed or not. That is not claimed
at all by the government. As a matter of fact, I say to the
people across the way that this is an advisory committee to
recommend people to sit on a future committee. Of course the
future committee would only exist with the passage of the bill.
1510
Obviously if the bill does not pass there is no need to have the
permanent committee in place. Nor do I think the government
would ever consider putting such a permanent committee in place
if that were the case. It is an advisory committee to select
members to sit on the future permanent committee which is not yet
in place.
One has to hold the following proposition before Canadians and
before Your Honour this afternoon. The bill if passed, and I
would like to say when passed, will come into force next January
1. If it does not pass, it will cost Canadian taxpayers the sum
of $400 million if there is a delay of one year. Therefore the
government has to be ready with all the proper recommendations
just prior to the January 1 tentative implementation date. The
implementation date will only be firm once the bill is finally
passed.
Once the bill is passed, the government would only be prudent to
take the necessary lead time to make the necessary preparation in
order to then have at that time the final nomination of the
people for the permanent committee. It is the prudent thing to
do. It is one that saves taxpayers dollars which is essential
not only in the eyes of the federal government but in the eyes of
the eight provinces that have signed on to the agreement and even
in the eyes of the other two that have also said they want to
place people on the board of directors should it come into place
once the bill is adopted.
The Speaker: Colleagues, as I mentioned the last
time, I want to have a look at any question of privilege that
impinges on members of the House. The hon. member for Fraser
Valley quoted from a document which I have not seen. I would ask
him to please leave me the document so I can read it. I want to
have a look at this thing and I want to reserve judgment on it.
If the House will grant me, I will return to the House if and
when it is necessary, but I want to have a look at the document
before I make a ruling.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[English]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
OFFICIAL LANGUAGES
Hon. Sheila Finestone (Mount Royal, Lib.): Mr. Deputy
Speaker, first it is a pleasure to welcome you in that seat. It
is very nice to have you call for this report which I am honoured
to present as the chair of the official languages committee. It
is the first report of the Standing Committee on Official
Languages.
PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have the honour to present the sixth report of the Standing
Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding the membership
and associate membership of the Standing Committee on Citizenship
and Immigration. If the House gives its consent, I intend to move
concurrence in the sixth report later this day.
* * *
1515
PARLIAMENT OF CANADA ACT
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.) moved for leave to introduce Bill C-13, an act
to amend the Parliament of Canada Act.
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. government House leader, on
a point of order.
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Speaker, I wish to seek unanimous
consent to deal with this bill later this day.
The Deputy Speaker: Perhaps we could have the bill read a
first time and then I will deal with the minister's motion.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
The Deputy Speaker: When shall the bill be read a second
time? The hon. government House leader on a point of order.
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Speaker, rather than the
traditional later sitting of the House, I wish to seek unanimous
consent that the bill be dealt with later this day. There has
been consultation among all parties.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there agreement that the bill be
ordered for consideration later this day?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
* * *
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if
the House gives its consent, I move that the sixth report of the
Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, presented to
the House earlier this day, be concurred in.
(Motion agreed to)
* * *
PETITIONS
LABELLING OF ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have two petitions today. The first has to do with health warning
labels on the containers of alcoholic beverages.
The petitioners would like to bring to the attention of the
House that the consumption of alcoholic beverages may cause
health problems and that fetal alcohol syndrome and alcohol
related birth defects are preventable by avoiding alcohol
consumption during pregnancy.
The petitioners therefore pray and call on Parliament to mandate
the labelling of alcoholic products to warn pregnant women and
others of the certain dangers associated with the consumption of
alcoholic beverages.
PUBLIC SAFETY OFFICERS COMPENSATION FUND
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): The second
petition, Mr. Speaker, has to do with our public safety officers,
police officers, firefighters and RCMP.
The petitioners say that police and firefighters are required to
place their lives at risk on a daily basis and that when one of
them loses his or her life in the line of duty all of us mourn
that loss.
The petitioners therefore pray and call on Parliament to
establish a public safety officers compensation fund for the
benefit of families of public safety officers, including police
officers and firefighters, who are killed in the line of duty.
THE FAMILY
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
I have two petitions.
The first petition calls on the government to amend the charter
of rights and freedoms to (a) recognize the fundamental right of
individuals to pursue family life free from undue interference by
the state and (b) recognize the fundamental right and
responsibility of parents to direct the upbringing of their
children. They furthermore urge the legislative assemblies of
the provinces to do likewise.
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): The second
petition, Mr. Speaker, petitions Parliament to affirm the duty of
parents to responsibly raise their children according to their
conscience and beliefs and to retain section 43 in Canada's
Criminal Code as it is currently worded.
GOODS AND SERVICES TAX
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, NDP): Mr. Speaker, it is my
honour to rise, pursuant to Standing Order 36, to present a
petition on behalf of a number of constituents, as well as a
number of individuals from the Guelph—Wellington constituency,
who have signed a petition which states they are deeply concerned
about the government's decision to continue taxing reading with
the GST.
They go on and on about all the reasons why we need to encourage
people to buy books to practise their reading skills, and to
encourage young people to buy books.
1520
In particular, a young person points out that she has to pay the
GST on her bibles that she sends off to people in developing
countries. She is very determined to have that changed.
TAXATION
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the next
petition is again about taxes. A great number of people from the
city of Kamloops as well as the city of Clearwater, British
Columbia point out their concerns that our tax system is unjust,
biased and unfair and ought to have a complete and total
overhaul.
I again endorse the comments of these constituents.
HUMAN RIGHTS
Mr. Brent St. Denis (Algoma—Manitoulin, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have several petitions to present today.
I have dozens and dozens of petitions from my riding from people
who are concerned about the decision made last year in Ontario
concerning women being allowed to be in public bare breasted.
The petitioners call on the federal government to take measures
to deal with this issue.
NUCLEAR WEAPONS
Mr. Brent St. Denis (Algoma—Manitoulin, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the second petition is from constituents in the city of Elliot
Lake in my riding who are concerned about the nuclear weapons
that still exist in the world and ask that something be done
about it.
* * *
[Translation]
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would
ask that all questions be allowed to stand.
The Speaker: Is it agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
* * *
[English]
MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I ask
that all Notices of Motions for the Production of Papers be
allowed to stand.
The Deputy Speaker: Is it agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Speaker, I think you would find
unanimous consent for a motion with regard to committee travel.
The Deputy Speaker: Does the hon. parliamentary secretary
have the leave of the House to propose his motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
* * *
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.) moved:
That four members of the committee and one staff member of the
Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs be
authorized to travel to Aviano, Italy; Zagreb, Croatia; Velika
Kladusa, Coralici, Bihac, Druar, Zgon, Banja Luka, Sarajevo,
Bosnia; and Zurich, Switzerland from November 2 to 13, 1997 in
order to examine Canada's continuing involvement in the
international stabilization force in Bosnia.
(Motion agreed to)
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
PARLIAMENT OF CANADA ACT
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. government House leader on a
point of order.
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I believe that you would find
unanimous consent that Bill C-13 be dealt with at second reading,
committee of the whole and third reading this day.
The Deputy Speaker: The House has heard the proposal of
the government House leader. Is it agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.) moved that Bill C-13, an act to amend the
Parliament of Canada Act, be read the second time and, by
unanimous consent, referred to a committee of the whole.
[Translation]
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to briefly address Bill
C-13, an act to amend the Parliament of Canada Act.
[English]
The discussions with the opposition parties have now resulted in
an agreement for the membership of the Board of Internal Economy
and to allow appropriate representation of all parties in a way
that is responsive to the present composition of the House of
Commons.
1525
You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that since the opening of
Parliament, the House leaders of the various political parties
have taken steps to ensure that processes—for instance, the size
and the number of standing committees—be adjusted to ensure that
the work of parliamentarians is supported by a fair and
reasonable system.
We have also taken measures, in co-operation with the Speaker,
to ensure that a system is in place to have a question period
that was functional, given the five political parties presently
in the House of Commons.
We have adjusted budgets for research offices and support
services for members of Parliament, reflecting the same kind of
change.
This leads me to believe that those who predicted that this
would be a form of pizza Parliament, with members of Parliament
unable to co-operate with each other, were wrong.
We have different points of views in the House of Commons. We
will disagree with one another on various issues of substance,
but we were all sent here to represent our constituents. The
members of the five parties were sent here by Canadians not to
make this Parliament dysfunctional. We were all sent here to
make Parliament work.
I want to congratulate the House leaders of all parties for
their work in that respect thus far. I also congratulate the
Speaker for his excellent work and for his guidance from time to
time.
The proposed changes to the Board of Internal Economy will
essentially do the following. They will create a situation
whereby five members of the government will sit on the Board of
Internal Economy: two ministers and three members. The Leader of
the Opposition, or his delegate, will be represented on the
board. In addition, a member of the official opposition caucus
will be on the board and also a member from all other parties,
duly recognized, in the House of Commons.
There is also a formula in the new bill by which such amendments
will not be necessary in the future, were there to be more
changes in the numbers of of parties sitting in the House of
Commons, either after the next election or in the event that a
party ceases to be a political party within this Parliament.
These changes have been made with the support of all the parties
involved. I want to reiterate my appreciation for the support
and co-operation of everyone.
[Translation]
Negotiations of this type are never easy. Still, it is important to
note that all political parties, regardless of their ideology, agree
that we must work together to ensure the proper operation of this
Parliament and to provide the best possible government to Canadians, who
sent us here to represent them during this 36th Parliament.
[English]
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
it is a pleasure to speak to Bill C-13 which amends the
Parliament of Canada Act.
This amendment provides for members of the Progressive
Conservative Party and the New Democratic Party to be
full-fledged members of the Board of Internal Economy.
I believe in any organization in our democracy, matters which
affect employees or members of any organization should work by
way of input from those members. I do not believe that the House
of Commons should take a different approach than that which is
taken by any other organization in our country. In fact, we
should set the trend and the style for those kinds of things.
The act did not previously provide for membership on the board
for those two parties and this amendment corrects that situation.
While we may differ in the House from time to time on many
issues, I do not believe that the Board of Internal Economy is a
place in which differences occur by way of motions. I believe it
is a consensus organization. In fact, it is a management
organization that keeps the members' interests at heart and, in
particular, keeps the members' interests, on an ongoing basis,
regardless of party politics. Presumably it is non-partisan.
1530
New members should be reminded that the Board of Internal
Economy operates on a consensus basis. Therefore, with the new
membership and the more people we have on the board, it is
imperative to keep the consensus building ideal and not get into
motions and partisan issues. We should manage the way any good
organization should manage. Hopefully that is what this
amendment to the bill does.
We wholeheartedly agree that these two parties be active members
of the Board of Internal Economy. We wish them well in future
discussions and debates that will occur there.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to
address Bill C-13, an act to amend the Parliament of Canada Act, on
behalf of the Bloc Quebecois.
It is definitely appropriate and timely for Parliament to amend the
Parliament of Canada Act, so as to reflect what happened on June 2, when
Canadians and Quebeckers elected 301 representatives from five different
political parties to the House of Commons.
This reality was not recognized in the former act, or in the
current Parliament of Canada Act, until the tabling of this amendment,
whereby the Board of Internal Economy, which is basically the
administrative body for the House of Commons, now recognizes two new
official political parties in the House, namely the New Democratic Party
and the Progressive Conservative Party.
However, we would have liked the amendment to also recognize that
Canadians and Quebeckers elected to this House not only members from
five different political parties, but a specific number of MPs from each
of these parties.
I think that if there is one conclusion we can draw from the June
2 election, it is that it has shown how fragmented Canada really is,
with five parties, basically representing the five regions of Canada,
being elected to this place. The Liberal Party, of course, is primarily
concentrated in Ontario; the Bloc Quebecois, as we know, is primarily—in
fact exclusively—concentrated in Quebec; the Reform Party has its
stronghold in western Canada, except for a few small pockets of
resistance from other political parties, and the maritimes are divided
between the Progressive Conservative Party and the New Democratic Party.
That having been said, the point I was making is that there is, in
this House, a certain level of party representation that we would have
liked to have seen reflected in every body of this House.
We have fought to have the Bloc Quebecois adequately represented on the
House of Commons Board of Internal Economy.
We must recognize however that, while the bill before us today, to
amend the Parliament of Canada Act, recognizes the fact that five
parties are represented in the House of Commons, it does not recognize
the level of representation of each party in this House for the Board of
Internal Economy.
Let me give an example. In the June 2 election, the Bloc Quebecois
won 44 seats, or approximately 14.7% of the seats in this House. Under
the formula proposed by the government, the Bloc Quebecois ends up a
level of representation of 9% on the Board of Internal Economy, which is
less than its level of representation in this House.
Compared to the representation of all other parties, the Bloc Quebecois
is the only one to be penalized in any significant way by the
distribution of the seats on the Board of Internal Economy.
1535
The hon. government House leader was right in pointing out that the
negotiations between the various political parties were long,
painstaking and difficult, but also fruitful. He is right in saying that
they were fruitful, because we in the Bloc Quebecois wanted to show our
good faith in allowing this Parliament to function properly. We
especially wanted to allow the two political parties that have made a
new beginning in this House, in this 36th Parliament, to sit on the
Board of Internal Economy, as provided for in the bill under
consideration.
However, as I pointed out, the Bloc Quebecois is being penalized to
some extent because we gave the Bloc Quebecois, the Progressive
Conservative Party and the New Democratic Party the same representation
on the Board of Internal Economy, that is to say, one representative.
This means that the Bloc Quebecois, which has a few more elected members
than the Conservative Party and the New Democratic Party combined, now
has one less member on the Board of Internal Economy than the
Conservative Party and the New Democratic Party combined. It is evident
then that the principle of proportional representation is not being
respected at that level.
I would say—I see my colleague, the chief government whip,
nodding to me, and he agrees with me on this—that the negotiations
were difficult but also, as I said, fruitful. These negotiations on
proportional representation have been held in just about every area
since we arrived here on June 2.
Of course, on the Board of Internal Economy—and we can see the result
today—but also in the case of the Parliamentary Internship Program, the
Bloc Quebecois is penalized again by the formula that the various
political parties in this House have chosen.
As for House committees, proportional representation was of course
recognized for each committee, but when you take all the committees
together, the Bloc Quebecois has exactly the same number of members as
the New Democratic Party and the Conservative Party. Following these
negotiations which were, I repeat, difficult but fruitful, this
principle of proportional representation was finally recognized when the
Bloc Quebecois was allowed two more representatives, one on the foreign
affairs and international trade committee and another on the human
resources development committee.
But the same problem still crops up, also in connection with the
composition of the parliamentary delegations. With all of the good
faith that has led us to a consensus on Bill C-13, I am calling
upon the good will of all of the colleagues in this House so that,
in all of the bodies of the House of Commons, we will acknowledge
the will of the people of Canada and of Quebec that was manifested
in the composition of this House, which gives Bloc Quebecois
members 14.7% of the representation in this House. We would like
to see that proportion respected as far as possible in all bodies
of this House.
That having been said, to pick up on the words of the hon.
leader of the government in the House, it was our desire, along
with all the political formations present, to ensure that, to
demonstrate that this Parliament can function properly, doing
things well regardless of the differences of opinion which separate
us.
But, as the House leader of the Reform Party has also said,
the Board of Internal Economy is a body which operates on a
consensual basis. In other words, the partisan aspect, the
confrontational aspect, does not exist within the Board of Internal
Economy and this, I believe, has fostered the desire of all
political formations to move ahead with this amendment.
Last of all, and the point on which I shall conclude since it
appears that the wish is to move through all of the business of the
House quickly today, on Bill C-13, and the amendments in which my
colleagues and I had a hand, is that I wish to make a
clarification.
The government was rather understanding when it agreed to not increase
its representation on the Board of Internal Economy and it deserves
praise for doing so.
1540
Still, Bill C-13 includes an amendment allowing the government to
include a member of the Privy Council on the Board of Internal Economy,
which was not the case before.
Section 52 of the current Parliament of Canada Act reads:
52. (2) In the event of the death, disability or absence of the
Speaker, five members of the Board, of whom one shall be the Deputy
Speaker or a member of the Board designated by the Speaker or the
Deputy Speaker to chair the meeting, constitute a quorum.
No reference is made to a member of the Privy Council. Until
now, it was of course the government's prerogative to decide
whether of not to send a member of the Privy Council. However,
the proposed amendment expressly provides for the presence of
such a member in the above-mentioned situation.
The amendment reads: “In the event of the death, disability or
absence of the Speaker, five members of the Board, of whom one shall be
a member of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada appointed under
subsection 50(2), constitute a quorum. The members present shall
designate a member from among themselves to chair the meeting”.
This is a change to include something which, until now, was not
expressly provided for in the Parliament of Canada Act. The amendment
formally includes a member of the Queen's Privy Council on the committee
made up of five members of the Board of Internal Economy.
I will conclude by thanking all those who took part in the
negotiations leading up to today's consensus. We are pleased to be a
part of this consensus, in spite of everything I pointed out.
[English]
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
I too rise in support of Bill C-13, an act to amend the
Parliament of Canada Act to permit New Democrats and Progressive
Conservative representatives to sit on the Board of Internal
Economy.
The amendment of this piece of legislation is in keeping with
the spirit of parliamentary reform that brought the Board of
Internal Economy as we know it into existence. I refer to the
reforms of the House of Commons which followed from the special
committee on the reform of the House of Commons, chaired by the
Hon. Jim McGrath in 1985-86.
Fewer and fewer of us will recall that prior to that time the
Board of Internal Economy was run entirely by the government.
Cabinet ministers and government backbenchers sat on the Board of
Internal Economy. There was no opposition representation on the
board.
This had dubious advantages in the sense that opposition members
never had to take any responsibility for the management of the
House of Commons or for the decisions taken in that context. It
was the feeling of the special committee on the reform of the
House of Commons that the House, like other parliaments in the
democratic world, should involve the opposition in the management
of its affairs.
A recommendation was made in the report of the special
committee, sometimes known as the McGrath report, which led to
legislation that permitted members of the opposition to sit
on the Board of Internal Economy.
As with many things we tend to be creatures of our own time and
context. The legislation drawn up at that time assumed a three
party House for ever and ever. The legislation was drawn up to
reflect that reality, which turned out to be a contingent and
temporary reality.
We found ourselves in this Parliament with five recognized
parties and a piece of legislation that did not permit the spirit
of reform to be lived up to unless there was an amendment such as
the one we now have before us. Once passed it will enable all
five parties to be represented on the Board of Internal Economy,
the spirit of the McGrath report to be respected in its entirety.
1545
I am very glad, as the last surviving member of the McGrath
committee in this House, to see that this report is still alive
and well, in some respects anyway, and that the Parliament of
Canada Act is being amended accordingly.
To a couple of things that were said by my colleague from the
Bloc Quebecois I would want to take issue with at least one thing
he said when he spoke about the regionalization of the House.
I know he was not intentionally oversimplifying but I want to
remind him that there are New Democrats from the west. It is not
only Reformers in the west. In my home province of Manitoba NDP
members outnumber Reform members four to two.
I notice the obsession with proportionality. Agreed that the
Bloc has put aside this attachment to proportionality just as the
government had to put aside its initial position in respect of
the Board of Internal Economy in order for us to come to a
workable solution on this.
I commend the Bloc for that but I ask the member to reflect on
the fact that the position of the Bloc and of Quebec in general
is not always one of strict proportionality when it comes to
other matters having to do with the Constitution, having to do
with amending formulas, having to do with the percentage of
Quebec seats in Parliament.
In many other debating contexts it is not the traditional
position of Quebec that proportionality is the first principle
that needs to be held up. Perhaps that is why, in the final
analysis, the Bloc was willing to make the compromise that it
did.
Sometimes groups or provinces or institutions are entitled to
representation by virtue of their status as opposed to their
numbers. What we are representing here today is that all
political parties need to be on the Board of Internal Economy.
That fact has been recognized and I welcome this development.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I rise to lend the voice of the Progressive
Conservative Party to supporting Bill C-13 as well. I will be
brief.
I want to thank the government House leader as well as all the
House leaders present for their participation and co-operation
with respect to this agreement. I think it does show an
important sign to this House and to the Canadian people that
there is a spirit of solidarity and co-operation that can help to
facilitate bills such as this.
I think it is important particularly when there is a breakdown
in the House as we experience here where there are five parties
for the first time in Canadian history.
It is also extremely important democratically to have
representation on behalf of the Progressive Conservative Party as
well as my friend in the New Democratic Party to participate in
the important decisions that are made at the board.
This bill continues with a floor level of 12 members of a party
that gains access to the board. I believe that the House, at
some point in the future, should take a look at this number after
an election because it may help to avoid some unpleasantness that
arose in the last Parliament.
There is nothing particularly significant about 12 other than
the fact that this happened to accommodate the political
situation decades ago.
The bill will also make amendments to provide for the operation
of the board in the event of the demise or the disability of the
Speaker and to ensure that a minister of the crown is included in
the quorum of the board if it should have to select a new
chairperson. Obviously we hope and pray this will never occur.
I will also acknowledge, as did my friend in the NDP, the spirit
of co-operation and the concession that was made by the Bloc. We
appreciate that. With respect to the proportionality, there was
a concession made and we do acknowledge that.
1550
I want to congratulate all the members who participated in this
decision. It is our hope that once we gain actual participation
within the board of economy this spirit will continue.
The Deputy Speaker: Is the House ready for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Deputy Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to
adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the House
went into committee thereon, Mr. Milliken in the chair)
The Chairman: The House in committee of the whole on
Bill C-13, an act to amend the Parliament of Canada Act.
(Clause 1 agreed to)
The Chairman: Shall clause 2 carry?
[Translation]
(On clause 2)
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères, BQ): Mr. Chairman, further
to my earlier intervention regarding clause 2, and for the benefit
of members of the House and all those now listening to the debate,
I would like to ask the minister a question.
In view of the information provided by the House leader of the
Conservative Party, can he explain to us the addition to section 52
of the existing Parliament of Canada Act of the words “a member of
the Queen's Privy Council for Canada”, in the event of the death,
disability or absence of the Speaker, for the purpose of appointing
a new Speaker?
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Chairman, the explanation is a rather simple
one. As you know, the amendment to the bill means that there will
henceforth be an equal number of government and opposition members
on the Board of Internal Economy, which is of course chaired by the
Speaker of the House.
In the event of a death, and we all wish the Speaker a long
life, but in the event of a death in another Parliament, perhaps,
it must be pointed out that the following situation could arise:
there could be a quorum on the Board of Internal Economy consisting
entirely of opposition members.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Which is highly unlikely.
Hon. Don Boudria: I know it is highly unlikely, as my
colleague opposite quite rightly points out, and we all wish the
Speaker of the House the best of health, making it even more
unlikely. A situation could nonetheless arise in which there could
be a quorum consisting entirely of opposition members on the House
of Commons Board of Internal Economy. The addition of this clause
means that there would be at least one government member, in this
case a minister.
It is merely in order to ensure that there could not be a
quorum composed entirely of opposition members. That is the
purpose. Naturally, with the Speaker in the Chair, the situation
does not arise, but should there be no Speaker, it is still
technically possible to have a quorum without government members.
The amendment in question is designed to ensure that such a
situation, however unlikely, cannot arise.
Mr. Louis Plamondon (Richelieu, BQ): Mr. Chairman, what the
minister is saying surprises me. He is saying that of course this will
not happen, because the Speaker is there. Are you assuming that the
Speaker is partisan?
Hon. Don Boudria: No, Mr. Chairman, the situation is this: the
Speaker is not partisan. Of course no one wants to imply that. The fact
is that with the new board, the quorum is six, that is half of the
members plus one. Therefore, since there are only five members from the
opposition, this will mean the five members from the opposition plus a
sixth member, who must be a government member or the Speaker.
1555
So the fact is that they are not all members from the opposition,
since the Speaker, as the member from Richelieu pointed out, is at least
neutral by definition. So he is not partisan in favour of the
opposition.
[English]
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Chairman, I want to pose the question again to the government
House leader that is this not covered by the fact that the Deputy
Speaker could fill that role.
This seems to be the omission with respect to this. The Deputy
Speaker would automatically assume the position of the chairman.
I have never seen a situation where there Deputy Speaker would be
anyone other than a government member. This seems to be an
automatic ascension to the chairperson's position. This would
prevent any concern on the part of the government side.
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Chairman, there was a certain
gleefulness in the chair, I seem to detect, when the hon. member
was making that statement.
No, that is not the case because the bill in question removes
the reference to that effect. From here on in it will be a
number of members of the governing party and opposition party,
plus the Speaker. There is no longer a reference to the Deputy
Speaker from here on in. That is why that is necessary because
the deputy speakership will no longer be referred to in the act
once we pass this amendment.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères, BQ): Mr. Chairman, on the same
question, would it not have been wiser to provide that in such a
situation, the Deputy Speaker would automatically take charge of the
Board of Internal Economy to ensure that its operations can continue,
instead of requiring that a member of the Queen's Privy Council be
present, because it is clearly specified that it must be a minister and
not simply a government member.
I ask the question following my colleague, the House leader of the
Conservative Party. Would it not have been better to include in the
proposed amendment on those present in such a situation that we do not
want the Deputy Speaker to take over the duties of the Speaker until a
new Speaker has been appointed?
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Chairman, this issue of the Speaker and of
the number of members from the government and from the opposition has
been dealt with in lengthy negotiations.
Without going into the details, because these are negotiations
between the House leaders, this was in fact an issue in the
negotiations, where it was finally agreed that there would be five
members from the government, two members from the official opposition,
in this case the Leader of the Opposition, who can of course be its
representative, plus another member, and a representative from each
other political party. That was one of the issues in the negotiations
and it was in fact the last issue that was resolved, so that today we
have this agreement.
[English]
(Clause 2 agreed to)
(Title agreed to)
(Bill reported, concurred in, read the third time and
passed)
* * *
1600
MACKENZIE VALLEY RESOURCE MANAGEMENT ACT
The House resumed from October 28 consideration of the motion
that Bill C-6, an act to provide for an integrated system of land
and water management in the Mackenzie Valley, to establish
certain boards for that purpose and to make consequential
amendments to other acts, be read the second time and referred to
a committee.
Mr. Reed Elley (Nanaimo—Cowichan, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it
is with pride and pleasure that I rise in the House today to give
my first speech in the Chamber.
By way of my opening remarks, I thank the voters of
Nanaimo—Cowichan for allowing me the privilege to serve as their
member of Parliament. It is an honour for me to be able to
represent the views of my constituents in Parliament, and I will
do so to the very best of my ability.
In debating Bill C-6, which is before the House today, I feel it
is necessary to discuss the background of the legislation. In
this regard, Bill C-6, the Mackenzie Valley Land and Water
Management Act, is the reincarnation of Bill C-80 which was
tabled in the last parliament.
As with Bill C-80, the bill provides for the establishment of
management boards to co-ordinate environmental assessment as well
as land and water regulations in the Mackenzie Valley of the
Northwest Territories. In this respect it fulfils the
requirements under a land claims agreement reached in the 34th
Parliament calling for such co-ordination.
Bill C-6 requires that 50% of the new board members be nominated
by first nations, with the other 50% by the governments of the
Northwest Territories and Canada. The intent is to give
aboriginal people and other northerners a stronger role in
resource management decisions. This is a very commendable goal.
As a Reformer I have no problem with giving our aboriginal
peoples more control over their destinies. When we in Reform
talk about equality for our aboriginal peoples, it is to put them
on the same footing with their fellow Canadians.
I must say, however, that in this regard I do get rather tired
of pious criticism of Reform Party policy on aboriginal affairs.
It comes mostly from a Liberal government which in the main has
not put its money where its mouth is.
For many years now a number of us in this party have taken a
grassroots interest in our native peoples. From a personal
perspective it has been an experience that I have shared with my
wife over the past 18 years. During this time, and even now, we
have cared as foster parents for many aboriginal children with
medical problems. Three of our eight children are aboriginal. We
love them as much as we do our first family of birth children.
What really gets me is that we have had to care for these little
ones as a direct result of the Liberal and Conservative
mismanagement of a system which has effectively abused our native
population for decades.
I remind members of the House that when they start to attack
Reform Party policy in this area they ought to be prepared to
walk in my shoes and in the shoes of others who have actively
helped and supported our native peoples.
1605
When I criticize the bill before us, when I indicate that I will
not vote for it in its present form, when I state that changes
must be made, when I do all this, it is not because Reform is
insensitive to the needs of aboriginal people as my Liberal
friends believe. To do so would be insulting.
I urge hon. members across the way not to attack my position
because they somehow construe it to be anti-native. It is not
that at all. It is because the bill is flawed.
Aside from aboriginal concerns, the issue we are addressing also
seems to be one of environmental and economic concern. The media
communications office of the minister of aboriginal affairs seems
to want this to be the focus when it claims that industry will
benefit from improved efficiency and cost effectiveness of a
regime which purports to build a single environmental impact
assessment process and to streamline the process of obtaining
water licences and land use permits.
Reform recognizes the validity of the goals in the legislation,
in particular the need to resolve commitments made by Canada
under land claims agreements. In this regard agreements on land,
water management and protection of the environment in the
Mackenzie Valley are issues of importance to residents of the
region and Canadians in general.
Reform's objections to Bill C-6 centre on the creation of yet
another level of bureaucracy and the resulting duplication of
services. In addition there are specific industry concerns which
need to be addressed, as the Northwest Chamber of Mines notes,
“before the confusion, delays and cost of this new system grind
mineral exploration to a painful halt”.
The chamber of mines points to the recent decision by Inco to
defer development at Voisey's Bay because of the onerous and
poorly defined regulatory demands, and this in a system that is
ostensibly far better defined and more unified than that which is
being proposed for the Mackenzie Valley.
Reform is further opposed to Bill C-6 as it erodes the standards
of resource management regulation for the perception of stronger
northern influence. But it does so at a price. The new system
would repeat the difficulties present within the existing system
and would compound them with additional burdens.
Let me illustrate. First, it will create yet another layer of
interjurisdictional confusion. Second, there will be even less
clarity in the rules and standards. Third, all this will result
in an inevitable increase in the costs of compliance.
The Northwest Territory Chamber of Mines speaks for business and
individuals active in the area. It outlined its concerns
following an information session held by the Department of Indian
Affairs and Northern Development officials in Yellowknife on
September 25, 1997.
The chamber stressed a number of points. There would be new
obstacles for resource development including the potential for
interference with staking of mineral claims, the change in the
role of leases and land use permits, new powers to boards to
suspend permits and leases, poorly defined terms for new rights
to compensation, and a confused enforcement policy.
They also felt the lack of clarity would instigate litigation.
In this regard attendees at the Department of Indian Affairs and
Northern Development information session in September raised many
questions and far too many were answered with uncertainty.
1610
Far too often they were given the worrying response that such
matters would have to be settled in court. If legal recourse is
now recognized as the only way to settle matters the chamber says
regularly arise in the north, surely this is the time to amend
the legislation before it ever gets that far.
Critics also point to the vulnerability to deliberate, delaying
tactics inherent in the legislation. There is the fear that
deficiencies in the act will encourage parties to use delay as a
tactic to impede environmental review. It is believed that this
would be done in order to rest concessions that are largely
unrelated to the protection of the environment or to the
specifics of the proposal.
While Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
officials dismiss this concern as improbable, the chamber pointed
to the region's recent experience with federal environmental
reviews. It referred to them as growing pains encountered in
Nunavut and to current difficulties in Fort Providence as
evidence. On these matters the chamber said:
It is our extensive experience with operating in this region that
leads us to put such a high priority on clarity, fairness and
consistency in the rules and their application.
The Northwest Territory Chamber of Mines also had reservations
about public representation on public boards. In this respect it
feels there is also a lack of clarity in the process for
selecting members to serve on various panels and boards.
Bill C-6 introduces three new board levels, but it does not
spell out what criteria will be used in determining who is a
proper representative of the public interest. A process that is
not open and clear can surely lead to a perception of mistrust
and bias.
Some conclusions reached in regard to Bill C-80 will ostensibly
apply to Bill C-6 as well. In particular, conversations with
other industry representatives consulted by the Department of
Indian Affairs and Northern Development during the development of
Bill C-80 confirmed their belief that a single review process
which avoids duplication of time and effort is the single most
important issue. The bill does not address this concern.
In addition, the Canadian Energy Pipeline Association and the
Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers have not made comment
since the fall of 1996. At that time they too stressed the need
for an agreement with the goal of efficiency.
In view of all of this, amendments at committee stage may well
save the day for the bill.
The chamber of mines represents about 600 companies and
individuals currently engaged in mineral exploration, mine
development and mine operation in the Northwest Territories. The
chamber of mines has called for substantial amendments in two
areas which we in the Reform Party can support.
First, the lack of clarity in the law and in the rules is likely
to produce very uneven regulations. It will do so across the
region from one applicant to the next, resulting in a highly
litigious process.
Second, the new system is seriously under-resourced, especially
in its technical capacity. This will likely prove to be a
disadvantage in dealing with the large workload created by
transitional arrangements. It will also affect changes to
leasing.
1615
In conclusion, unless there are changes which address the
shortcomings of this legislation, I serve notice of my intent now
to vote against this bill. I urge my colleagues on both sides of
the House to do the same. As I said earlier, voting against this
bill does not somehow mean you are insensitive to the needs of
aboriginal people. It does however mean that you recognize that
the bill is flawed and that there are changes which are
necessary.
Mr. Bernard Patry (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Indian Affairs and Northern Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I would like to thank my colleague from Nanaimo—Cowichan for his
speech and his dedication to the First Nations. I would like to
tell him some of the features of the Mackenzie Valley Resource
Management Act.
First, an advantage to the Mackenzie Valley First Nations
without land claims settlements is that the aboriginal and treaty
rights will be protected. The act will also be reviewed in
consultation with First Nations with respect to any
self-government agreements that might be negotiated. It does not
affect the Indian Act. First Nations may also nominate members
to the boards, providing a much stronger voice in resource
management decision making throughout the Mackenzie Valley. It
also allows for permanent regional land and water panels upon
settlement of claims.
What are the changes for the industry? The implementation of
land claims brings the certainty required to enhance the
investment climate. The integrated resources management brings
efficiency and consistency to the Mackenzie Valley. The land and
water system is based on familiar regulations: the Northwest
Territories Water Act; the territorial land use regulation with
some changes to reflect the land claims; aboriginal water rights,
clauses 73 to 79; modernizations from security deposits in clause
71; and a penalty for offences clause.
Finally, it encourages and provides for co-operation to
eliminate duplication and environmental reviews.
We know the people living and working in the Mackenzie Valley
are in favour of this bill. We know the large majority of the
population of the Mackenzie Valley is from the aboriginal
population, and the Northwest Territories government with a
majority of members coming from the aboriginal people is
supportive of this bill. The Council of the Gwich'in First Nation
and the Council of the Sahtu Nation are in favour of this bill.
Knowing that this bill brings many advantages to the actual
situation, my question to my colleague is, why is it that the
Reform Party wants to impose its solution knowing that this
proposed solution is one drafted with and for the population of
the north?
Mr. Reed Elley: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon.
member very much for his comments and question. I am sure that
the hon. member would agree that in our parliamentary democratic
system it is the responsibility of a good opposition to take a
very constructive look at government legislation. We would be
remiss if we did not say here is an area where we feel there
needs to be some changes.
As I have already pointed out, there are some very good things
in this bill. At the same time we know there are some concerns.
I would hope that the government would take a good look at the
concerns that have been raised by the chamber of mines and
others. After all, if we run into problems in this thing later
on and it is seen that this kind of bill actually does impede the
development of mining in the north, then all the people are going
to suffer, natives and non-natives alike. It will mean fewer
jobs and less money going into our northern areas. No one would
want that.
We in the Reform Party are saying we should take a little closer
look at this bill. Let us see some areas where there are flaws.
Hopefully in committee work we will be able to iron some of these
out.
1620
Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to commend my colleague from
Nanaimo—Cowichan for a very powerful and eloquent speech on this
issue. He has worked for many years with aboriginal peoples and
has given more than most people ever will.
My colleague brought up a number of very interesting questions
relating to this issue and also on the larger issue of aboriginal
peoples in this country. I am very interested to know his views
on the following.
We know that the social parameters among aboriginal peoples in
this country rival those in third world nations: a lifespan
which is eight years shorter; an infant mortality rate which is
1.7 times higher; a tuberculosis rate that is eight times higher
than that of the non-aboriginal community; and a diabetes rate
that is three times higher.
As the member mentioned in his speech, this bill has actually
prevented a lot of employment from taking place in the north.
I ask the hon. member the following question. Does he believe
that the inability of government policies to work with aboriginal
peoples in creating jobs has been a prime motivating factor in
contributing to the social ills that they see in a lot of these
communities?
I ask whether or not he believes that the factor of aboriginal
people not having responsibility and control over aboriginal
people's affairs and their inability to develop long term
constructive employment within their communities has been a prime
factor in contributing to the despicable and horrible situation
one finds in some of these aboriginal communities.
Mr. Reed Elley: Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague
very much for both his observations and his question.
It has been my experience in my own lifetime of observation and
working with our native peoples that indeed over a large period
of time now, government mismanagement in this whole area has led
to the terrible conditions that exist on many reservations across
Canada. We in the Reform Party have had a number of concerns in
this area for a long time.
What concerns us about a bill like this in regard to our
aboriginal peoples is that far too often the negotiations go on
with the band chiefs and the band councils and if I might use the
term, a band elite. They have very little reference to the
ordinary aboriginal person who makes up the majority of the band
population.
When speaking to aboriginal peoples, their concerns differ very
little from yours and mine. They want a good job. They want to
be a useful productive person in society. They want to live a
good and peaceful life.
Unfortunately the kind of mismanagement of aboriginal affairs by
consecutive Liberal and Conservative governments has just driven
our native peoples into a land of despair and one that is without
hope. It grieves me tremendously to see what is happening with
our aboriginal peoples today.
Somehow we have to fix this problem. We have to work with our
native brothers and sisters to do something about it. From my
perspective it really does start at the grassroots level, our
making constructive contacts with native peoples to work at this
whole concern.
Hon. Charles Caccia (Davenport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let
me start by congratulating the minister for introducing Bill C-6.
It is a very fine Liberal initiative in the tradition of modern
Liberal thinking. It will go a long way in the long overdue
recognition of the rights of our native people. It will provide
for a land claims agreement which we have all wished would see
the light of day and finally the day has come.
Bill C-6 would implement the terms of the Sahtu Dene and Metis
comprehensive land claim agreement as well as the Gwich'in
comprehensive land claim agreement.
This is to be done in terms of land use planning and land and
water management. Also it takes into account environmental
impact review as to the implications of certain specific
proposals. This is a long overdue initiative as the land claim
agreement in question deserves full implementation as soon as
possible.
1625
There are a number of important issues that should receive the
attention of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and
Northern Development. I would like to indicate a few through
this intervention.
The committee could study ways and means to ensure that there is
an integrated system of management of land use planning, land and
water management and environmental impact assessment. This is
the first and most important consideration if the bill is to live
up to the considerations and goals relating to sustainable
development.
The second point is the committee would be very wise in
examining the effect of this bill on the quality and type of
environmental assessment that will be done in the Mackenzie
Valley. It might be worthwhile noting that the Mackenzie Valley
covers quite a wide territory. It includes everything north of
60, south of the Inuvialuit claims area, east of the Yukon border
and west of the Nunavut settlement area. It is a huge area.
At present the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act applies in
much of the land north of 60. Together with other existing and
proposed regimes we could over time end up with a patchwork of
environmental assessment regimes as they apply in the north. That
is something we would like to prevent.
The existing regimes include in addition to the federal act, the
process under way under the Inuvialuit land claims agreement
process and the James Bay and northern Quebec agreement. The
proposed regimes include the Yukon development assessment
process, better known as DAP, and the process to be administered
by the Nunavut impact review board, plus the framework proposed
in part 5 of this bill.
Before such a patchwork is to emerge, it might be worthwhile for
the committee to examine certain questions. For instance is the
system which is currently in place working? Will the proposed
additional regimes improve the situation? Will each of the new
regimes address transboundary, international and environmental
impacts? A cursory review of clause 141 of the bill which is
entitled “Transregional and External Developments” seems to
indicate the need for stronger wording so as to ensure a
comprehensive review of potential effects whenever they may
occur.
Mandatory rather than permissive language will also make for
greater certainty of the process to be followed which is in the
interests of all participants. This is a point of discussion in
almost every piece of legislation relating to the environment.
They are more effective when mandatory rather than permissive
language is used.
The fourth point has to do with the following question. Is
there adequate provision in the bill for participant funding in
environmental assessment? Participant funding is a critical
component for decision making because it requires meaningful
public participation. Members of the public do bring important
contributions to the discussion of what comprises their health
and what effects there may be on the environment of an area where
industrial development is proposed.
In addition, the public can bring important input to whether
there are health and environmental trade-offs for the development
that is being proposed.
1630
Canada has many environmental assessment regimes. The federal
act provides for funding for participants. We are very proud of
that fact. This funding was introduced by Liberal legislation
some years ago.
I would like to add that the co-management bodies established
under this bill will constitute institutions of government.
Therefore, it will be essential for parliamentarians to become
involved. This will require thorough committee reviews. Of
course, the availability of funding for participants is very
essential. With that thought in mind, might I say that the
aboriginal affairs and northern development committee would be
well advised to travel to the northern communities to hear the
views, which I am sure are diverse, on this bill.
To save time in this debate, because this is a fine measure
which ought to be given speedy passage, I would like to
congratulate the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development for introducing the bill. I would reiterate my
suggestions for the committee, namely to consider how it can
ensure that environmental assessment, as well as land and water
management, are conducted in accordance with the principle of
sustainable development as outlined in the Brundtland report
entitled “Our Common Future”. In doing so we will achieve
something of lasting value for many generations to come.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): It is my duty
pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the
questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as
follows: the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, Health; the
hon. member for Tobique—Mactaquac, Public Works.
Mr. Bernard Patry (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Indian Affairs and Northern Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I would like to thank the hon. member for Davenport for his
speech, knowing his dedication to environmental issues.
I have one question. Is the member supportive of the provisions
of Bill C-6 where it provides for joint environmental reviews,
co-operation and co-ordination, by the National Energy Board, the
Yukon and Nunavut territory, a province or the Minister of the
Environment under the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act?
Hon. Charles Caccia: Mr. Speaker, I thank the
parliamentary secretary for his question which relates to joint
reviews.
In reading that passage of the bill I was struck by its broad
scope and its imaginative approach. I think it can only lead to
very positive results. Therefore, my answer is in the
affirmative.
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, I would
like to make a few comments on what the hon. member on this side
previously said.
I listened very intently to—
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. member must
direct his comments to the hon. member who is engaged in the
debate at this time. We will be calling for debate again after
the time allotted for questions and comments. Perhaps the hon.
member could put his point at that time.
On questions and comments, the hon. member for South Shore.
Mr. Gerald Keddy: Mr. Speaker, because the Mackenzie
River Valley is 4,241 kilometres long and because the north—
1635
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): It is tough some
days. The microphones, as hon. members know, pick up any little
sound. I recall one time when an hon. member had a clock timing
his speech and we were all looking around wondering what that
little beep was. Again, on questions and comments, the hon.
member for South Shore.
Mr. Gerald Keddy: Mr. Speaker, thank you for your
patience. I will put my paper down. I am not going to grind my
paper and I am not going to grind my teeth but I will rub my
hands.
However, because of the size of the Mackenzie River Valley and
the fact that the people in the Northwest Territories and along
the Mackenzie River Valley have waited since 1973 for some action
on this matter, 24 years, that is why we need to support the bill
and that is why this bill needs to move forward.
We can listen to the criticism and we can listen to the debate,
but I would like to make one point on this for the House. Are we
going to move forward on this very important matter? Are we
going to have some devolution of power in this House to the
Northwest Territories or are we going to wait another 24 years,
as some would seem to think we should, or are we going to move
ahead? I suggest we move ahead.
Hon. Charles Caccia: Mr. Speaker, I think that everybody
in the House today would agree with the hon. member that it is
time to move ahead and with speed.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is the House ready
for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The question is on
the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the
yeas have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Call in the members.
And the bells having rung:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Accordingly the vote
is deferred until the end of government orders today.
On a point of order,
the hon. government House leader.
* * *
INCOME TAX CONVENTIONS IMPLEMENTATION ACT, 1997
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, there have been consultations
among all parties and I believe that you would find consent for
the following motion. I move:
That the order referring Bill C-10 to the Standing Committee on
Finance be rescinded and that the said bill be referred to the
Standing Committee on Industry.
(Motion agreed to)
* * *
DNA IDENTIFICATION ACT
Bill C-3. On the Order: Government Orders
September 25, 1997—the Solicitor General of Canada—Second
reading and reference to the Standing Committee on Justice and
Human Rights of Bill C-3, an act respecting DNA identification
and to make consequential amendments to the Criminal Code and
other acts.
Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.) moved:
That Bill C-3, an act respecting DNA identification and to make
consequential amendments to the Criminal Code and other acts, be
referred forthwith to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human
Rights.
1640
He said: Mr. Speaker, as this is my first opportunity to speak
with you being in the Chair I would like to congratulate you. I
know you are going to do a great job. I enjoyed very much our
working together in the past.
I am pleased to speak today to the motion to refer Bill C-3 to
committee before second reading. Bill C-3 provides for the
establishment of a national DNA data bank. The DNA
identification act will make Canada one of only a handful of
countries in the world to have a national DNA data bank.
I am also pleased to inform the House that with this
groundbreaking legislation we have reached a major milestone in
the government's safer communities agenda. Forensic DNA analysis
has been instrumental in securing convictions and has also helped
to exonerate wrongly convicted individuals. It has already
proven to be one of the most accurate methods of obtaining solid
evidence in criminal investigations. However, DNA analysis also
raises important privacy concerns because it has the potential to
reveal much more about a person than does the analysis of a
fingerprint.
Given the scope of the issues surrounding the use and potential
misuse of DNA profiles and samples, we want to ensure detailed
and careful study of this legislation. The introduction of the
DNA identification act marks the second phase in the government's
DNA strategy. The first phase was implemented in July 1995 when
amendments to the Criminal Code were passed to allow the police
to obtain DNA samples from suspects in criminal investigations
with the use of warrants.
With those provisions now firmly in place we are now creating
the legal framework for storing both the biological samples and
using the identifying information that they hold. It is another
concrete step toward protecting Canadians from violent criminals.
I wish to share what has been done to bring us to this point.
The former solicitor general began a process of consultation in
January 1996 with the release of a DNA consultation document to
various groups and individuals across Canada. Input was sought on
several key issues, such as whose DNA profile should be banked,
under what circumstances and whether biological samples should be
retained.
Last year consultation sessions were held across the country and
written comments were received from over 70 respondents. The
results of those consultations were summarized in a report that
was released in February 1997. A tremendous amount was learned
through this process. The consultations indicated strong support
for the creation of a national DNA data bank. However, a number
of concerns were raised in relation to privacy and charter
considerations associated with the collection of biological
samples and the storing and use of DNA profiles.
The views of those who participated in the consultation process
have been carefully considered. We are confident the bill
strikes the appropriate balance between privacy and charter
concerns and our goal to do more to protect Canadians from
violent crime.
The national DNA data bank will be an important tool that will
help police link a suspect with evidence left at the scene of a
crime. It will be much easier for police to identify repeat sex
and violent offenders and help eliminate innocent suspects in the
course of their investigations. Combined with the DNA warrant
legislation, which is already in place, the ability to store and
later retrieve DNA profiles will shorten investigations and help
prevent further victimization from repeat offenders. It is the
next logical step to ensure that the warrant legislation is used
to its fullest potential.
I will briefly explain how the proposed data bank will work.
Biological samples will be collected from offenders convicted of
designated criminal offences. These include the most serious
personal injury offences, including homicide and sexual offences.
Young offenders will be treated in the same manner as adults with
respect to the taking of DNA samples for the purposes of data
banking. The DNA extracted from the sample will be analysed with
the resulting profile entered into a convicted offenders index in
the data bank.
The DNA data bank will also contain a crime scene index that
will contain DNA information retrieved from unsolved crime
scenes. The data bank will be established and maintained by the
RCMP. It is very important to note that access to the DNA
profiles contained in the convicted offenders index and to the
samples themselves will be strictly limited to those directly
involved in the operation of the data bank.
1645
The benefits of using such a system are numerous. Police will
be able to identify and arrest repeat offenders by comparing DNA
information from a crime scene to the convicted offender's index.
They will also be able to determine whether a series of offences
was committed by the same offender or whether more than one
perpetrator was involved. Police will be able to cross-reference
and link DNA profiles to other cases within and across
jurisdictions.
Using DNA profiles will help focus police investigation by more
quickly eliminating suspects whose DNA is already in the data
bank in a case where no match with the crime scene evidence is
found.
Finally, we anticipate that the knowledge of DNA testing to
solve crimes may also deter offenders from committing further
offences.
We are keenly aware of the significant privacy concerns
associated with the bill, particularly in relation to the
retention of biological samples. Strong arguments have been
advanced by the scientific community indicating that in its view
the retention of biological samples is essential for the DNA data
bank to be able to adapt to technological changes in the future.
We are aware that the field of forensic DNA analysis is
developing rapidly and forensic scientists have told us that as
the technology evolves the DNA profiles of today are likely to be
come obsolete later on. If samples are retained, they can be
reanalysed using new technology, thereby ensuring that Canada's
data bank is able to keep pace with technological advances.
The bill includes strict prohibitions and criminal penalties in
relation to any misuse of either the samples or the information
contained in the samples. However, despite the safeguards
included in the legislation there continue to be concerns
regarding the retention of biological samples.
I believe there are compelling arguments on both sides of the
issue and this is one of the reasons why I am asking the House to
refer the legislation to the justice committee prior to second
reading to allow for detailed study and full public debate.
To conclude, there is no doubt that over the past few years we
have made enormous progress in our efforts to contribute to a
safe, just and peaceful society. The addition of forensic DNA
analysis and the ability to store DNA profiles will help us
target those who commit the most serious crimes and hold them
accountable.
Canadians can continue to enjoy the safety of their streets and
have a sense of security knowing that police forces across the
country have access to one of the most sophisticated tools
worldwide.
I urge hon. members of the House to support the motion to refer
Bill C-3 to committee prior to second reading.
Mr. Allan Kerpan (Blackstrap, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
congratulate you on your appointment. This is my first
opportunity to say this publicly with you in the chair. As do my
colleagues, I look forward to this session with you in the chair.
Let us talk about Bill C-3. No one from our party would be
opposed to a national DNA registry. The theory is sound and
solid. No one in this party would disagree with that.
However, my concern is that I do not believe the bill takes us
far enough into the future and makes arrangement for a DNA
registry that will encompass all the things that should be in it.
We think the bill at very best is a half measure.
I just spent a week in Washington meeting with officials of the
justice department. One of the issues we talked about at some
length was the issue of DNA evidence and registry. I would like
to quote from a book of case studies carried out and issued by
the U.S. department of justice about how important DNA evidence
can and will be. I quote Rockne Harmon, senior deputy district
attorney for Alameda County, California:
The introduction of forensic DNA typing into the legal system
was heralded as the most significant event in criminalistics
since dermal fingerprint identification. Few developments ever
live up to their advanced billing—but DNA has.
Cases are now being prosecuted that never would have been
possible before the advent of DNA typing. Many states have
created DNA data bases on known offenders that they can compare
against unsolved crimes.
—the results occasionally exonerate a suspect or suspects.
Such cases rarely are front page news because the tests have
served their purpose. Investigators can redirect their efforts
to alternative suspects.
1650
I use that quote because Canada is on the cutting edge, the
leading edge of this type of technology. Our thinking on this
side is why would we want to cut that process off at the knees.
Let us make this DNA registry supply the tools that the people in
our justice system need in order to carry out their jobs more
efficiently.
Equally important for a DNA registry is the ability to exonerate
someone who is actually not guilty of a crime. I use a well
known case in Canada, from the province of Saskatchewan, the
David Milgaard case. This past summer with the use of DNA
evidence David Milgaard was released from prison. He was
released because through DNA testing it was found that he did not
commit the crime he was accused of and for which he spent 23
years in jail.
The evidence is so conclusive that the Saskatchewan government
immediately entered into negotiations with Mr. Milgaard on how
much they were going to pay him in compensation. Very few
governments would take that route without convincing evidence.
The province of Saskatchewan had no doubts about the
conclusiveness of the DNA test.
To quote from the same book I quoted from a moment ago, Walter
F. Rowe, professor of forensic science at the George Washington
University said:
An unforeseen consequence of the introduction of DNA profiling
has been the reopening of old cases. Persons convicted of murder
and rape before DNA profiling became available have sought to
have the evidence in their cases re-evaluated using this new
technology. In some cases, DNA test results have exonerated
those convicted of the offences and resulted in their release
from prison.
The point I am getting at is this technology is so critical and
crucial to law enforcement agencies that we must do the very best
job we can to put this registry together so it serves the
purposes of those involved.
Our plan on this side of the House would be to go much further
than the Liberals in their original draft of Bill C-3. We would
like to make the DNA registry and Bill C-3 completely parallel to
the current fingerprint legislation whereby a suspect at point of
arrest would have a sample of DNA taken. That sample would then
be used in order to either convict or exonerate that person
accused of the crime. Anyone found not guilty of a particular
crime would have the right to ask the department to remove their
DNA sample from the registry, as they are allowed to do under the
fingerprint legislation.
One of the arguments we get from some of the civil libertarian
groups is that it goes too far. What is too far? That really is
the question.
My answer to that is if you are going to make a mistake, if you
are going to err, it is far better to err on the side of victims
than on the side of accused criminals.
The other argument I hear is why would you want to take this
sample at point of arrest. You are certainly not convicted of a
crime at that point in time. That is true, of course. Law
enforcement agencies have better things to do than arrest people
without some justification. The police I talked to, the men and
women protecting this country, have reasonable grounds before
they arrest any person.
The other argument I hear is about the security of the registry
itself. Of course there is no guarantee and there cannot be any
guarantee that the system would be fail safe.
1655
The good part of this bill, and I agree there is a good thing in
this bill, is that it does have very tough penalties for the
unauthorized use of the registry. That must be continued and
strictly enforced.
When I look back through the history of fingerprint legislation,
we have never had a problem, to my knowledge, of a breach of
security for the fingerprint system.
This bill should be a very critical part of our justice process.
That goes without saying. It must be a major part of our
process. It is not the be all and the end all of solving cases
or exonerating people from crimes they have convicted. However,
if used properly, it can go a very long way toward making the
justice system, which many people in this country are very
frustrated with, more appealing to the Canadian people.
If we give the police and the justice system all the tools
available, we could put those resources, both human and
financial, to better use. We can put those people back on the
streets where they need to be and where they must be.
On the other hand, as I mentioned before, it also gives people
wrongly accused of crimes all the tools available in this day and
age to ensure them a fair and conclusive trial. That does
happen. We have seen evidence of that in Canada during the last
few years. That is something no one can argue with in this
country.
I know we are going to have the opportunity to speak about this
bill as it goes through the regular parliamentary process. I am
looking forward to that. I expect that our party may well put
some amendments forward to this bill and we will discuss those in
the House.
I urge the government to take heart as to what is said in
committee from those witnesses who come forward, to take heart
and take note of what is said in this House as this bill goes
through the rest of the process.
[Translation]
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the bill
before us today deals with a very important issue, something that
cannot be taken lightly.
We must decide today, in our consideration of the bill, what
is most important: the fight against crime or the respect of
individual rights and freedoms, including respect for an
individual's private life and person.
In principle, the Bloc Quebecois supports the bill, because
the crime rate in this country can never be too low, because the
number of unresolved crimes is never too low and because the work
of the police is too important for them not to have all the tools
they need.
We all know that a DNA profile is the best way to identify
someone. It raises some questions, however, first because it
involves an individual's person, second, because we are talking
about people's DNA profile and, third, because the possibilities of
improper use are limitless. We must therefore ensure a very high
level of confidentiality for the bank.
What sort of questions might we have? There are some I would
mention here today. First, the bill contains provision for the
storage of bodily substances taken.
I would like to know why a sample will be kept once the genetic
information has been taken, because the comparison is not done with
the sample, but with the information taken from the sample. The
point of having the bank is to establish a relationship between an
individual and the scene of the crime, which can be done without
the need to keep the sample once the analysis has been done.
1700
Who is to say that, if these samples are preserved, there will
not be pressure from a segment of the population saying “Let's do
genetic testing to see if there is not some genetic predisposition
for becoming a criminal”. Once again, these are huge ethical
questions. Where will it stop? This is a slippery slope, one which
we ought not to embark upon, in my opinion. By destroying the
samples, while keeping the information gleaned from them, we will
be able to resist the temptation to carry out unnecessary testing.
I have another concern. The bill provides that samples may be
taken by a law enforcement officer.
In the opinion of the Bloc Quebecois, samples ought to be taken,
not by a law enforcement officer, but by a health professional,
either a physician, a nurse or a qualified medical technician.
I have good friends on the police force and I respect their law
enforcement work, but if they came after me with a needle I would
feel pretty uncomfortable. Let us give sample collection over to
qualified medical personnel.
There is also the question of the disclosure of profiles. It
is possible, and somewhat normal in today's world, for information
to be transferred between countries or between organizations. I am
thinking of such things as the FBI or Interpol. Once a foreign
state or organization has been given information, what assurance is
there that if a file is sealed in Canada it would be sealed
elsewhere?
Perhaps there could be a notification process whereby foreign
states to whom information had been forwarded could be told that
the file had been sealed in Canada and asked to seal it as well.
Agreements could also be drawn up between Canada and these states
so that once a profile is sealed here in Canada, it could also be
sealed in the foreign state to whom we transmitted the information.
Another question we have concerns access to the information in
the data bank. As it now stands, the bill gives commissioners
considerable leeway. This raises certain problems of
confidentiality of data.
Perhaps we could put measures in place, or require the
commissioner to make public the list of persons with access to this
bank so that there are certain limits to the commissioner's
discretionary authority.
In conclusion, we support the bill in principle, but feel that
there should be very serious consideration of certain provisions,
some of which I have just mentioned. It merits serious
consideration and we in the Bloc Quebecois would be very pleased to
take part in such consideration.
[English]
Mr. Peter Mancini (Sydney—Victoria, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
as indicated by my colleague, we will be supporting the bill in
principle but with some very serious reservations and concerns
that have to be addressed.
I will comment on some of the remarks made by a previous
speaker, but first I welcome the debate initiated by the
solicitor general. I take him at his word that he wants to
ensure a detailed analysis of the legislation because it is
crucial legislation. As my colleague has already indicated, we
are trying to find a balance between information that can be
vitally important to both the police and prosecution services and
at the same time protecting the civil rights and liberties of
individuals.
I look forward to debate on the retention of DNA samples. The
solicitor general indicated there were compelling arguments on
both sides at the current time. My own feeling would be that
retention causes real problems.
I look forward to that debate in the House as well.
1705
I would be remiss if I did not also comment on the remarks of
the hon. member for Blackstrap who indicated that the bill did
not go far enough for his party. I respect his opinion on that.
I can see we will have lively debate when the bill comes before
the committee.
He quoted some information from the United States. Again with
the greatest of respect I am very cautious of that kind of
information because our systems are so different in many
situations.
I appreciate when he says we should err, if we must err, on the
side of victims and not criminals and therefore their support to
take the DNA samples at the time of the charge. I remind my
colleague, as I am sure he is aware, there is no criminal until
such time as a court determines guilt. At the time individual
are charged they are the accused.
At that time the person we are calling the victim is the
accuser. If I come before a court and say that the hon. member
has done something to me, at that time I am not a victim and he
is not a criminal. At that time I am the accuser and he is the
accused. As I indicated we will have a lively debate on that
aspect of the bill.
It has been stated that an opportunity has been presented to
find that balance and I think we will. History is fraught with
examples of situations where societies and communities felt they
had the answer to solving crime problems and investigative tools,
only to be proven down the road that scientific evidence was not
as accurate as we might have hoped and that many innocent people
suffered as a result of what society thought was the perfect test
for guilt.
We must approach this kind of scientific information with some
scepticism because it deserves to be treated carefully and
critically.
Certain sections of the bill require real examination. As the
solicitor general indicated, many groups made presentations to
him. Many groups opposed the legislation. Among them were the
Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres, the Elizabeth Fry
Society, the National Action Committee on the Status of Women,
and women's organizations like the Feminist Alliance on New
Reproductive and Genetic Technologies. Several other groups felt
the legislation was not necessarily the best way to use
government funds. As indicated previously civil liberties
associations had real concerns about the legislation.
I can point to specific examples in the legislation where I
think the solicitor general and the government have gone too far,
or sections that require very careful consideration and debate.
Clause 7, as my colleague has indicated, provides for tremendous
discretion on the part of the commissioner to provide access to
information about an individual's DNA index to other groups.
The very taking of the DNA samples is questionable. Why would
we do it automatically instead of perhaps suggesting that an
application be made by the prosecution or by the defence?
Certainly there are benefits to the accused. Why should an
application not be made to the judge hearing the case who could
then exercise his or her discretion accordingly with procedural
safeguards for the civil liberties of the individual charged? The
automatic taking of the sample is something I have some problems
with.
Clause 10 which provides for further testing if there are new
developments is fraught with real problems. On the storing of
the substances which has been referred to, especially the storing
and keeping of the substances when an individual is pardoned,
when a higher court overturns a conviction, I think we must ask
the question why we would keep the substances once an individual
is determined to be innocent of the crime. Then the sample ought
not to have been collected in the first place.
Why we would continue to keep that index and the information
derived from the samples is something we have to look at very
carefully.
1710
The application to young offenders and the keeping of the
samples for 10 years is a portion of the legislation we have to
look at very critically. As well we should look at the offences
to which the taking of DNA samples will apply.
Those concerns will demand very real examination in committee.
As I have indicated, the NDP will support the bill in principle
at this point and will certainly support referring it to
committee.
However, if I can summarize, a number of issues need to be
addressed such as the indefinite period of keeping the DNA on
file; the inclusion of young offenders in the act, in every
single portion of the act, to be treated the same way as adults;
the issue of who has access to the DNA databank and how the
information may be used; the fact that the DNA may be taken even
while a case is under appeal or kept while the case is under
appeal; and the taking of DNA be mandatory upon conviction rather
than at the discretion of the judiciary.
I cannot stress that enough. I feel very strongly about that
point. I am willing to listen to other arguments and debate, but
it is something we have to be very careful about.
The fact that a person can be detained for a reasonable amount
of time for the taking of the samples, as opposed to a clearly
defined period of time during which the samples could be taken,
requires consideration. Who will be taking the samples? Will it
be a member of the police force or a trained individual?
Another very real question that has to be addressed is the
funding formula and the costs of establishing the DNA databank.
Who will pay for it? Obviously the commissioner will be a member
of the RCMP. The RCMP will have a huge influence on the way the
legislation is dealt with. All those questions deserve very
careful consideration.
As I have indicated I look forward to the debate. I think it
will be lively. I especially look forward to the comments of the
next speaker, the hon. member for
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough. He is a former prosecutor. I
am a former defence counsel. The two of us worked in the same
province. We did not have the opportunity to lock horns in the
courtrooms of Nova Scotia, but I look forward to our debate in
committee.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak to Bill C-3, the DNA identification
act. As my learned friend in the New Democratic Party pointed
out, I was a crown attorney in the province of Nova Scotia and
had the opportunity to deal with a number of cases which featured
DNA evidence.
Although this may give lawyers, both prosecutors and defenders,
a unique perspective on the legislation, I would suggest that DNA
evidence is something that has a tremendous effect and impact on
the criminal justice system for all Canadians.
There has truly been a number of changes within our legal system
and DNA type testing is certainly the next generation of
fingerprinting.
Since 1988 trial judges have allowed DNA evidence from the
accused to be identified in several criminal prosecutions
throughout the land. Indeed forensic DNA analysis has been
instrumental in securing convictions in hundreds of violent
crimes, as well as resulting in the release of wrongfully
convicted persons, as referenced by the Reform member. He
mentioned the Morin case as well as the Milgaard case in his
province. The key here is that both an inculpatory and
exculpatory notion arise from the use of DNA evidence.
During the early years of DNA evidence there existed a vacuum in
regulating the collection and use of DNA data. In a number of
cases judges allowed DNA samples which were taken from
individuals without their consent. This is something which is
addressed within the proposed legislation. It is something which
will certainly lead to more lively debate with respect to
individual rights, as opposed to the rights of the victims and
their families. Caution must always be exercised in the use of
this type of technology.
Organizations such as the Canadian Police Association have
warned the Liberal government that legislation would be needed to
ensure proper and effective use of DNA evidence similar to the
type of evidence that is introduced through the identification of
criminal acts with photos and fingerprints and of the need to
potentially purge the samples if a person was found not guilty.
1715
In December 1993 the Canadian Police Association met with the
then justice minister and in January 1994 met with the then
solicitor general. The purpose of the meetings was to raise the
urgent need for updating the evidence laws, including DNA
technology. Despite the warnings from the country's top law
enforcement personnel, the men and women who are on the front
lines enforcing the laws, the Liberals decided to wait. They
dragged their heels until the Supreme Court of Canada intervened
in 1994, much the same way they continue to drag their heels on
the faint hope clause, the Young Offenders Act, victims bills of
rights and impaired driving legislation.
The supreme court ruled that in the absence of federal
legislation the police did not have any lawful authority or means
to obtain a search warrant for the seizure of bodily substances
for the purposes of DNA typing. This lack of legislation led the
Supreme Court of Canada to determine that DNA evidence obtained
without the consent of the accused risked being excluded at
trial. I did see this happen in a case that arose within my
constituency of Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, the Queen vs.
Borden.
The government finally took the step to provide a legal
framework for DNA evidence in 1995 by passing Bill C-104. That
bill gave the police the right to seek a warrant that, if
approved by a provincial court judge, would authorize the
collection of bodily substances for DNA analysis.
Bill C-104 also legislated the criteria for our judges to
consider when reviewing DNA warrant applications. Police
officers, lawyers and judges finally had some guidelines, albeit
very broad guidelines, to govern the collection and use of DNA
evidence.
With Bill C-104 in place the obvious question arose of what
would the government do with the DNA samples once they were
collected. The logical answer was the creation of a national DNA
data bank in which the collected samples could be stored for
future reference in the use of criminal investigations or trials.
Even the justice minister at the time, when not preoccupied with
cracking down on law abiding gun owners or launching politically
motivated witch hunts, did concede that the importance of a
national DNA bank existed. He felt that it was so important that
when Bill C-104 was approved he promised complementary data bank
legislation for the fall of 1995.
That promise bit the dust when the government decided to start
consultation again in January 1996. A discussion paper entitled
“Establishing a National DNA Data Bank” was tabled.
Interestingly enough, the cover note on the news release which
accompanied the discussion paper of the day stated that the
government would bring in DNA legislation within the coming year.
We all know what happens when these promises are made on justice
issues. The coming year seems to be stretched into 16 months and
the promised legislation was tabled in April this year just in
time for its inclusion in the writing of the order paper. It was
also introduced in time for inclusion in the red book.
Thankfully the Liberals did not use this as an election excuse
to delay the potentially important piece of legislation before us
today. With some minor exceptions, technical language that is,
Bill C-3 is essentially the same bill that was introduced in
April during the dying days of the last Parliament.
The solicitor general has outlined many of the positive elements
of this bill, of which there are several. The national DNA data
bank, to be managed by the RCMP, will consist of two main
components, a crime scene index that will contain DNA profiles
obtained from unsolved crime scenes, as well as a convicted
offenders index which will contain DNA profiles of adult and
young offenders convicted of designated Criminal Code offences.
Because police officers would be able to cross-reference these
data from certain convicted offenders with unsolved crimes, the
DNA identification act is a great improvement over the vacuum
which previously existed in terms of storing the DNA data.
But will this national data bank established under Bill C-3
provide police officers with an effective tool to solve crimes
and keep our streets and communities safe as referred to by the
solicitor general?
Police officers, particularly those involved in the Canadian
Police Association, do not feel it will. The Canadian Police
Association, which has been at the forefront of lobbying the
government to establish this DNA data bank, is concerned about
the effectiveness of Bill C-3. In essence, it is opposed to the
legislation in its current form.
1720
The major concern of the Canadian Police Association is the
timing of DNA collection. According to the CPA, a national DNA
data bank will only be successful if the collection of DNA
evidence from a person charged with an indictable offence is done
at the time of arrest. Why is this the case? Because the only
guaranteed opportunity to obtain DNA evidence from an individual
charged with an indictable offence is when the police have actual
custody and possession of this individual.
The proposed convicted offenders index, while somewhat useful,
would not help police with unknown murderers and rapists. It
might even encourage suspected offenders to skip bail. Most
people charged with offences do receive release pending trial.
Our criminal justice system grants bail in more than 95% of cases
when individuals are charged. According to Juristat in
1995, 66,000 people broke bail or failed to appear as required.
Consider this example of what might happen if a person were
arrested with respect to an offence related to juvenile
prostitution, a designated offence for which the DNA collection
would apply. If that person had also committed an offence such
as a murder or a sexual offence in another part of the country
from which the offender's unidentified DNA was to be collected,
that person would know that if convicted for juvenile
prostitution, an offence not as serious as the prior offences I
have mentioned, the DNA analysis would be obtained,
cross-referenced with the crime scene and then that person could
potentially face a murder charge. It does not take a rocket
scientist to figure out that under the bill in its current form
the offender would certainly have an incentive to skip bail
knowing that he was going to face more serious charges.
As it stands, this bill is a huge loophole that we do not need.
We certainly do not need more unnecessary loopholes in our
justice system. I understand the fears of individuals in Canada
with respect to privacy but I believe there are ways to deal with
this without compromising the collection of samples and the
ability to solve serious unsolved crimes.
I respect the fact that many members in the opposition have
posed serious questions that will be debated at the committee
level. I also look forward to taking part in that rigorous
debate and to seeing that this bill is brought forward in such a
way that it will aid our law enforcement agents throughout
Canada.
[Translation]
Mr. Nick Discepola (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor
General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have seven or eight
minutes left. I will try to conclude my remarks by 5.30 p.m.
I am pleased to speak to Bill C-3 today. It is entitled the
DNA Identification Act. It concerns an issue never before dealt
with in Canadian legislation.>
The registration of DNA profiles in a bank and the storage of
samples and bodily substances raises many ethical and legal
questions and warrants thorough consideration in an open
discussion. Rest assured that the Government of Canada is taking
these questions seriously. That is why the Department of the
Solicitor General last year consulted widely on the creation of a
DNA data bank.
In January 1996, the solicitor general at the time made public
a consultation paper on a national DNA data bank. This document
was used as the basis for consultation across the country, in which
a number of questions were asked, including: what genetic material
should be included in the bank; when should samples be taken and
who should do so; should we keep biological specimens and DNA
profiles; and how should the DNA data bank be funded?
The document was given to provincial and territorial
governments, to police departments, to national police
organizations, to those responsible for privacy, to lawyers, to
representatives of correctional services, to women's groups, to
victims' groups and to experts in the field of forensic medicine.
You can see a broad cross section was consulted.
The number of participants in consultations and the number of
briefs received raised considerable interest in the creation of a
national DNA data bank.
1725
On the whole, the consultation also showed that there was
strong support for such a bank, particularly from the police. On
the other hand, those concerned with privacy issues and jurists
stressed the necessity of adopting balanced legislation which would
include the necessary guarantees, limits and protections to ensure
that privacy is respected.
The Department of the Solicitor General summarized the results
of the consultation process in another document titled “Summary of
consultations”.
This report stated that there was no true consensus among
respondents on such questions as preservation of biological samples
of bodily substances and the range of offences involved.
Given the complexity of this matter, and the diversity of
views on this aspect of how the data bank would operate, I must
take advantage of this opportunity to congratulate the Solicitor
General of Canada for introducing legislative provisions which
reflect both the necessity to improve protection of the public and
the obligation to respect the individual's right to privacy.
The national DNA data bank will offer police forces an
invaluable tool to assist them in their battle against violent
crime.
Police investigations will be facilitated by the use of DNA
analysis and by the possibility of comparing genetic data from
biological samples from convicted criminals with those found at the
scene of unsolved crimes.
[English]
It will help ensure that those guilty of serious crimes, such as
repeat violent sexual offenders, are identified and apprehended
much more quickly. At the same time, the bill contains strict
rules governing the collection, the use, the retention of DNA
profiles and biological samples in order to ensure that privacy
interests are protected.
Building on the success of the DNA warrant legislation passed in
July 1995, the current bill includes similar safeguards and
processes related to the collection of the samples. To date, we
all know that the DNA warrant scheme has withstood charter
challenges and thus provides a solid foundation on which to build
the DNA data bank scheme.
The legislation includes numerous safeguards. For example, as
has already been stated, the RCMP will be responsible for safely
and securely storing all biological samples. In addition, the
legislation limits access to DNA profiles contained in the
convicted offenders index and access to the samples themselves
will be limited to only those directly involved in the operation
and maintenance of the data bank.
[Translation]
In order to ensure the appropriate use of information
contained in the data bank, the bill states clearly that only the
name attached to the profile may be transmitted to the authorities
responsible for implementing the legislation in the course of
criminal investigations.
The bill also provides for prison terms of up to two years
less a day for infractions. Infractions involving unauthorized use
of the data bank will also be included in Canada's Criminal Code
and in the legislation on identification by fingerprints.
This is an extremely important bill that will be invaluable to
the police in combatting violent crime.
As my esteemed colleague, the Solicitor General of Canada, has
already said, however, the complexity and innovative nature of the
bill require the full attention of members and of experts with the
necessary experience and knowledge to advise us on issues relating
to technology, privacy, law and ethics.
In conclusion, therefore, I support the motion of the
Solicitor General of Canada to refer Bill C-3 to committee before
second reading, and I urge all my colleagues in the House to do the
same.
* * *
MACKENZIE VALLEY RESOURCE MANAGEMENT ACT
The House resumed, from October 28, 1997, consideration of the
motion that Bill C-6, an act to provide for an integrated system of
land and water management in the Mackenzie Valley, to establish
certain boards for that purpose and to make consequential
amendments to other acts, be read the second time and referred to
a committee.
The Deputy Speaker: It being 5.30 p.m., the House will now
proceed to the deferred recorded division on the motion at second
reading of Bill C-6.
Call in the members.
1750
[English]
Before the taking of the vote:
The Speaker: I know it is a new Parliament but members
should not come between the person speaking, the Chair and the
mace. Therefore, when members have to cross the floor, I ask you
either to go around the chair or around the table.
Actually what I have is a trap door here, and if you don't—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: —you go down.
Also, when members enter the House or leave it—it is a
tradition—but you acknowledge the authority of the Chair. The
overwhelming majority already do it, but it is simply to bow to
the Chair when you come in and when you go out.
The question is on the motion.
1800
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Anderson
| Assad
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
(Saskatoon – Rosetown – Biggar)
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
| Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
|
Baker
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
|
Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
|
Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blaikie
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Brison
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Byrne
| Caccia
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Casey
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Charbonneau
| Charest
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Cohen
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
|
Cullen
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
|
Discepola
| Dromisky
| Drouin
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
|
Duhamel
| Earle
| Easter
| Eggleton
|
Finestone
| Folco
| Fontana
| Gagliano
|
Gallaway
| Godfrey
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goodale
|
Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
| Guarnieri
|
Harb
| Hardy
| Harvard
| Harvey
|
Herron
| Hubbard
| Ianno
| Iftody
|
Jackson
| Jennings
| Jones
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Keddy
(South Shore)
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
|
Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Laliberte
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lincoln
| Longfield
| MacAulay
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
|
Mahoney
| Maloney
| Mancini
| Manley
|
Marchi
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Massé
| Matthews
|
McCormick
| McDonough
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
|
McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mifflin
|
Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Muise
|
Murray
| Myers
| Nault
| Normand
|
Nystrom
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
|
Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
|
Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Kent – Essex)
|
Power
| Pratt
| Price
| Proctor
|
Proud
| Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
|
Richardson
| Riis
| Robillard
| Robinson
|
Rock
| Saada
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Serré
|
Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
| St - Julien
|
Stoffer
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
|
Torsney
| Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
|
Vautour
| Volpe
| Wappel
| Wasylycia - Leis
|
Wayne
| Whelan
| Wood
– 175
|
NAYS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Alarie
| Asselin
|
Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bigras
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
|
Brien
| Cadman
| Canuel
| Casson
|
Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
| Cummins
| Dalphond - Guiral
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Desrochers
| Dumas
|
Duncan
| Elley
| Epp
| Forseth
|
Gagnon
| Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
|
Goldring
| Gouk
| Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
|
Guay
| Guimond
| Hanger
| Harris
|
Hart
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
|
Hoeppner
| Johnston
| Kerpan
| Konrad
|
Lalonde
| Laurin
| Lebel
| Loubier
|
Lunn
| Marceau
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
|
Mayfield
| McNally
| Ménard
| Meredith
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
| Pankiw
| Penson
|
Perron
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Plamondon
| Ramsay
|
Reynolds
| Ritz
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
Schmidt
| Scott
(Skeena)
| Solberg
| Stinson
|
Strahl
| Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
| Turp
| Vellacott
|
Venne
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
– 82
|
PAIRED
Members
Dubé
(Lévis)
| Duceppe
| Marleau
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
|
Pillitteri
| St - Hilaire
|
The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
(Bill read the second time and referred to a committee)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): It being 6.03 p.m.,
the House will now proceed to the consideration of Private
Members' Business as listed on today's Order Paper.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[English]
NATIONAL SHIPBUILDING POLICY
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC) moved:
That, in the opinion of this House,
the government should actively develop an innovative
National Shipbuilding Policy which focuses on making ship
yards internationally competitive by providing tax
incentives and construction financing comparable to what is
being provided elsewhere in the world and which ensures
reasonable access to foreign markets, particularly the
United States of America; and should recognize that such a
policy would not provide direct subsidies, but create
alternatives methods of support to ensure the growth of the
industry.
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is with the utmost of honour that I
introduce my motion which calls on the government to review,
revitalize and renew Canada's shipbuilding policy.
1805
For the past number of months various sectors have been
pleading, in fact demanding, development of a national
shipbuilding policy. A focused and unified consortium of
stakeholders recognize the industry is in need of governmental
leadership and initiatives to ensure the future of a strong,
self-sufficient and export driven industry.
These stakeholders include the Shipbuilder's Association of
Canada and the Canadian Ship Owners Association. Labour is
represented by the Marine Workers Federation and even all 10
provincial premiers are on side.
This motion addresses the need for policies and initiatives to
ensure Canadian shipyards have reasonable access to international
markets. Today's debate brings the issue to the forum where
change must and can only be delivered, on the floor of this
House.
My objective is for the House to recognize through constructive
debate what others know to be true, that the federal government
has a responsibility to respond to the needs of Canada's
shipbuilding industry.
I stress the need for all members to reach a consensus so this
issue will reach the desk of the Minister of Industry in an
urgent fashion. Reaching a consensus would be a major step
forward for the shipyards and individuals who earn their living
in this high tech industry.
Before we get into detail, the support and changes that I and
the industry are advocating are not about subsidies. We are
calling for changes to simplify regulations to enable our
shipyards to compete. These changes would do more for the
industry than any subsidy ever could.
The industry recognizes the way it has been supported in the
past by government contracts will not continue. It is eager to
find new markets internationally where it knows it can compete.
This is the key to the success of a shipbuilding industry and our
ability to be competitive in a global marketplace.
Canada's marine industry employs 40,000 people nationwide and
adds over $2 billion to gross domestic product. Canadian
shipbuilders have rationalized 40% of their shipbuilding capacity
over the last decade. They have become more efficient and are
lower cost producers.
The industry has evolved and modernized. What it needs now are
initiatives to use this modernization to be able to compete.
Canadian shipyards are now high tech companies supporting
Canada's ocean and marine shipboard technology and are part of an
industry with a future, yet we continue to impede their progress
with a paternalistic approach.
The federal government has no specific industrial or trade
policy dealing with shipbuilding. The international trade
business plan, Canada's integrated plan for trade, investment,
technology and development, does not include shipbuilding.
While this motion does not call for subsidies, I think we need
to recognize that all other shipbuilding nations have direct
subsidies or a variety of programs that enable them to compete
internationally. Canada does not. This forces us to compete on
an uneven playing field.
At the same time, Canadian shipyards have become more
competitive by incorporating new technologies and processes,
adding new equipment and modern facilities. The fact is that
Canadian shipyards could be cost competitive with other European
Economic Community and United States shipyards building naval
ships today and have the potential to become competitive building
merchant ships if we had the opportunity to compete on a more
level playing field.
Shipbuilding is a relatively labour intensive activity, thus
labour costs have a major impact on the total shipbuilding cost.
Over the past 10 years hourly wages in Canada have gone from
being among the highest in the mid-1980s to near the lowest in
1996 when compared to European and American shipyards. This is a
result of significant currency exchanges, improved Canadian
efficiency and rising labour costs abroad.
Due to excess subsidies, low cost shipbuilding nations such as
Korea, China, Poland, Ukraine, Brazil and Spain target low
technology ships such as crude tankers and bulk carriers with
high steel content and low outfitting needs. Canadian shipyards
cannot, would not and have no interest in participating in this
aggressive market.
1810
While some nations are losing their market share in
shipbuilding, others are finding success in specialty niche
construction. Canadian shipyards would focus on product
carriers, chemical carriers, offshore vessels and specialty ships
requiring special paint coatings, improved steel treatment and
specific instrumentation, navigation and communication systems.
These ships are presently built in high wage areas, such as the
EU, Japan and the United States.
Over the past decade Canadian government procurement has been
the main source of work for domestic shipyards. However, because
of shrinking government budgets and reduced government
requirements for ships, new markets must be found.
International markets provide the only possible military and
commercial shipbuilding opportunities for larger Canadian firms.
In the near term the commercial market offers the best prospects
for maintaining and/or expanding production.
Considering the fact that only 2% to 3% of Canadian shipyard
capacity is exported today, there is a real opportunity for the
government to assume a leadership role and empower the industry
to grow. Canadian policies must support both international market
entry and sales to Canadian operators and owners. We must agree
that the future of the shipbuilding industry in Canada is tied to
its ability to compete in the international commercial
shipbuilding markets.
Shipbuilding construction has shown consistent increase in
demand since the early 1980s. Shipyards around the world are
preparing for continued growth. The longer Canadian shipyards
wait, the more difficult it will be to enter these international
markets.
Canadian officials continually point to the need to follow the
1979 OECD agreement, yet we are the only country to abide by
these terms. Members of the EU generally provide direct subsidies
to their shipyards of up to 9% of construction costs. Other
assistance, such as research and development, tax benefit
programs and export financing are also provided.
Providing subsidies is not a solution that I am advocating. It
is not a made in Canada solution. There are alternatives which
would enable Canada to compete on a more level playing field
which do not involve subsidies.
The premiers, the Canadian Shipbuilding Association and other
stakeholders believe that there are financial mechanisms used by
the Americans which could form part of our Canadian solution.
First of all, the U.S. federal ship financing program, known as
Title 11, is a good example. After a long absence from the
international commercial market, U.S. shipbuilders have appeared
in the world order book compliments of Title 11. This financing
program recognizes the common practice of ship buyers demanding a
financial package as part of the total sales package.
Title 11, established in 1936, provides for federal government
guarantees of private sector financing for the construction of
U.S. ships for both domestic and foreign ship owners. The
success of the Title 11 export financing and loan guarantee
program is an indisputable success.
In fiscal year 1996 more than $1 billion U.S. in U.S. ships were
exported and delivered courtesy of Title 11 guarantees. It is
worth noting that there has not been a default under this
program. There has been no cost to the U.S. government since it
was established in 1936.
A second initiative which the shipbuilding stakeholders support
involves revisions to Revenue Canada leasing regulations. Leased
financing has become a predominant method of financing
significant capital items. The current regulations make the
ownership of leased financing of a Canadian ship uneconomical.
Accelerated depreciation was the backbone of the shipbuilding
industry only a few years ago and resulted in many ships being
built. The industry is imploring the government to visit this
initiative immediately. There is no reason the government cannot
take that step right away. It is not precedent setting and it
would make a significant difference in additional activity and
reduce social costs to the government.
Major items of capital equipment are already exempt from
existing Revenue Canada leasing regulations, such as computers,
rail cars, trucks and others.
1815
The industry also wants to see the one-sided aspects of NAFTA
eliminated. The American 1920 Jones Act legislates that cargo
carried between American ports must be carried aboard American
ships that are American built, registered, owned, crewed,
repaired and serviced exclusively by American firms. Otherwise
they are open to free trade. This legislation was exempted from
the FTA and from NAFTA.
Canadian shipbuilders do not have access to the American market
which is our natural market, yet American shipbuilders have the
right to sell to the Canadian market duty free. This unfair and
imbalanced version of free trade puts Canadian shipbuilders at a
severe disadvantage. The chances of reaching a quick resolution
with the Americans are slim because protectionism has pervaded
U.S. shipbuilding policy since 1920, as we found out in FTA and
in NAFTA.
However it is possible for us to revisit the Jones Act using a
strategic piecemeal approach. We need to push for bilateral
agreements on certain types of ships and vessels. I think all
members would agree that some form of market penetration is
better than none.
Currently U.S. grain exporters are unhappy with the Jones Act as
they perceive the legislation to be an infinite tariff that has
reduced competition and driven up shipping costs. This
represents an American chink in the Jones Act armour which may
enable better dialogue on possible bilateral agreements later on.
When referring to the government strategy for better economic
and industrial development in Atlantic Canada the Minister of
Industry stated:
The emphasis has to be on working with community strengths and
building on community advantages, and not on wielding a pot full
of cash and dispensing it to people on the basis of who they know
and who they voted for in the last election.
I agree with the Minister of Industry on this issue. If he
wants to work with the community strengths and the community
advantages he need not look any further than Canada's modernized
state of the art shipyards.
We have highly tooled yards and highly skilled labour. What we
do not have is access to markets. Subsidies, or as the minister
said a pot full of money, are not needed but a national policy
that faces up to the realities of the global marketplace is.
The industry has proven that it is competitive. What it needs
is export financing, revisions to Revenue Canada leasing
regulations, and attempts at bilateral trade discussions to
ensure we have access to our natural markets. A combination of
any one of these initiatives would create jobs and make the
industry more viable.
The development of a national shipbuilding policy has widespread
support. The member for Saint John has been a tireless supporter
of the shipbuilding industry since she has become a member of
Parliament and during 20 years in municipal politics as well.
At the first ministers meeting in July the premiers recognized
the challenges currently faced by Canadian shipbuilders in their
efforts to become internationally competitive. They recognized
the need for a national shipbuilding policy. The industry and
the ship owners association are calling for a national policy.
The current finance minister stated in 1988 as owner of Canada
Steamship Lines why he had to have ships built in Brazil:
I fought hard to have the ships built in Canada but was unable to
convince the government of the need to have an aggressive
shipbuilding policy. If we are not going to do that we will
never be a factor in commercial shipping.
All these folks are not wrong. Simply put, we need to develop a
modern policy to give Canada access to international markets.
While I am pleased that constructive debate is taking place, I
believe it is a great injustice that we are not able to vote on
this matter.
Therefore I would like to seek unanimous consent of the House to
make Motion No. 214 a votable motion. This is a national policy
that benefits shipyards in Vancouver on the western coast, inland
shipyards whether in Quebec or Ontario, and in Atlantic Canada as
well.
This is a national policy. All we are imploring the government
to do is to begin dialogue. Everybody wants a national
shipbuilding strategy: the ship owners, the workers, the premiers
and I believe members of Parliament.
Mr. Walt Lastewka (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Industry, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this is a motion respecting the
shipbuilding industry in Canada.
The shipbuilding industry has a long and rich tradition in the
country. It continues to play a key role in many coastal and
port communities, from major yards in Saint John, New Brunswick,
to Levis, Quebec, to smaller ones dotted across the country in
Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, P.E.I., Newfoundland
and British Columbia.
1820
As has been stated earlier, overall the major shipyards employ
about 4,000 workers. They are highly skilled, well paying jobs.
The smaller yards and facilities employ many other workers. All
these people can take great pride in the work they do and the
contribution they make.
The shipbuilding industry is a small but important component of
Canada's overall marine industry, making a significant
contribution to Canada's economic growth.
Shipbuilding is one of only a few industry to benefit from
comprehensive government initiatives. Essentially there are
three elements to the policy.
First, we made a commitment to use Canadian shipbuilders for the
renewal, repair and overhaul of government fleets. We will
continue our policy of domestic procurement on all federal ships
and repairs where it is possible to do so.
Second, we have a 25% tariff on all non-NAFTA foreign built
ships over 100 tonnes entering Canadian waters, with the
exception of fishing vessels over 100 feet.
Third, between 1986 and 1993 we spent $198 million on an
industry led rationalization process. The industry decided that
it was necessary to reduce its capacity so that the remaining
shipyards could survive and stay competitive. Therefore the
structure of the Canadian shipbuilding industry has changed
dramatically since 1986 due to this rationalization. Certainly
in the last five years there has been no real change in the
domestic international market situation to support reversing the
approach of the current government.
In addition, the Government of Canada has several other key
initiatives to support this sector. There are tax measures
available to ship owners in the form of accelerated capital cost
allowance on new ships built in Canada. Shipbuilders are also
encouraged to keep pace with new technology through the research
and development tax credit system. Through government
institutions there is financing available to this sector like any
other sector for commercially viable projects. For example, the
Export Development Corporation can provide financing for export
sales of Canadian products including ships.
We recognize that the international playing field is not level.
First, major distortions in the marketplace result from massive
subsidies from foreign governments to their shipping industries.
To defend our domestic industry we will continue our efforts to
eliminate foreign subsidies through the OECD. At the same time
the European community is looking at eliminating its country's
subsidies by the year 2000. Things are slowly changing.
Second, let me address the U.S. situation and the Jones Act.
Under the legislation only vessels built in the United States and
operating under the U.S. flag can engage in U.S. domestic trade.
This prohibits building or rebuilding any vessels for the U.S.
coasting trade in non-U.S. shipyards.
I remind the member for Fundy—Royal that he was not a member of
the House at the time the previous government led by his party
negotiated the free trade agreement and did not work out any
details to change this awful protectionist system under the Jones
Act.
However there are opportunities for Canadian yards to capture
some of the U.S. ship repair markets which will become more
accessible as the standard U.S. 50% tariff on repairs continues
to decrease over time and will be eliminated in 1998 under NAFTA.
It is still important to continue our efforts to encourage the
U.S. government to update an archaic 77 year old Jones Act in
line with NAFTA and WTO principles.
While the majority of U.S. legislators are supporters, a growing
number of legislators as well as other organizations such as
citizen tax groups are attacking the act on the grounds that it
is effectively a subsidy paid by the consumer.
In 1996 the International Trade Commission estimated the Jones
Act raises the price of water borne transportation by 26%.
The extra costs get passed along to consumers in higher prices.
This constitutes a hidden Jones Act tax of between $3.8 billion
and $10 billion a year. There is a result of subsidies.
1825
A U.S. senator has recently introduced the legislation to allow
foreign flagships to operate between two U.S. ports, if the
operator or charter of the ship is a U.S. citizen or is eligible
to engage in business in the U.S., and if the operator operates
regularly scheduled freight service in the ocean trades including
the Great Lakes. This is a very slight improvement but still not
good enough.
However all parties in the U.S. are acknowledging this is a long
term issue with no immediate solution. That is what they say
every year.
There is little doubt the Canadian shipbuilding industry has
faced some hard times in recent years. However recent
developments might help to stimulate new business in Canada for
shipbuilding and marine construction. They include the need to
revitalize the aging Great Lakes shipping fleet and the
development of high speed ferry services in offshore oil and gas
developments such as Hibernia, Terra Nova and Sable Island.
Certainly new opportunities are out there. There is evidence
that the international shipbuilding industry has come out its
global recession. The deep sea shipping fleet is aging and needs
replacement. Double hauling will soon be mandatory for ships
entering U.S. ports, requiring modifications to newer ships and
possibly the replacement of older ones. Each of these
developments may provide some opportunities to Canadian shipyards
in the future.
We must be prepared to compete in the global marketplace. To
become globally competitive Canadian shipyards must aggressively
continue to adopt modern technology. Acquiring the latest
technology in shipbuilding will help reduce production costs,
increase productivity and reduce labour. A lot of work has been
done but a lot more has to be done.
Around the world Canadian shipyards have earned a sterling
reputation in specialized markets such as coastal ferry systems,
icebreakers and self-unloading bulk carriers. Canada enjoys a
significant technological advantage and market edge because of
its experience in the construction of these specialized vessels.
Many new opportunities are looming on the horizon for
shipbuilding and the refit and repair industries in Canada. There
is much work to be done.
Although I cannot support the motion as submitted by the member
for Fundy—Royal, I congratulate him on his preparedness and his
desire to continue to work on behalf of the Canadian shipbuilding
industry. I hope we can continue to do so in the months and
years ahead.
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I too
congratulate and commend the motion presented to the House, the
depth of the research that has been done and the understanding of
the industry. I also commend the Parliamentary Secretary to the
Minister of Industry for his light on the subject.
The intent of the motion is probably one we could all support.
There ought to be a sound industrial policy not only with regard
to shipbuilding but with regard to all industrial development in
Canada. That is what is lacking in the government currently in
charge of the affairs of Canada.
I cannot help but to refer back to a particular response the
Ministry of Industry made as recently as yesterday. It is no
wonder people are confused, particularly the hon. member who
proposed the motion. The Minister of Industry in reply to a
question by the member for Halifax West said:
If he is asking me to announce that Canada will get into a
subsidy bidding war in shipbuilding, the answer to him as it was
for the member for Saint John last week is absolutely no.
The interesting contrast is that the same Minister of Industry
is quite prepared to enter into a subsidy bidding war when it
comes to the aerospace industry. How is it that the same
minister will unequivocally say “absolutely no” to the
subsidization of the bidding war with regard to shipbuilding but
it is absolutely okay when it comes to the aerospace industry?
1830
This is the same minister who does this. The unfortunate part
of it is that is not unusual. It so happens that this is a
Liberal government right now. There was a PC government before
it which did exactly the same thing. It also subsidized the one
but not the other. So there is nothing new here.
What this motion does is allow us to articulate
rather clearly that while there is nothing new, the PCs did the
same thing as the Liberals, Liberals do the same thing as the
PCs, now they are saying the government needs to have policy.
That is right. It does need to have a policy but so do the PCs
because they do not have one either.
This is just one of those crazy back and forths. One would
think it was a ping-pong game we were involved in here. The
unfortunate part of it is that the people who are suffering in
this are those working in the shipyards, the families involved,
the lack of work for these people. That is where the problem
lies for not having a good policy come to the floor.
I want to read this motion. The motion is a very
interesting study in semantics. It reads something like this.
They want the policy to focus:
—on making shipyards internationally competitive by providing
tax incentives and construction financing comparable to what is
being provided elsewhere in the world and which ensures
reasonable access to foreign markets, particularly the United
States of America; and should recognize that such a policy would
not provide direct subsidies, but create alternative methods of
support to ensure the growth of the industry.
What other alternate forms of support would their be than
subsidies, maybe not direct but certainly indirect?
The hon. member said that there are all these other programs.
Indeed there are. In fact, there is the foreign investment
opportunity company and all kinds of other programs that exist
which do allow countries that want to buy these ships to get
financing from the Canadian government.
There is nothing new here. What there is, and I commend the
member for this, is to articulate very clearly what the problem
is in certain parts of this country.
I happened to be at the vision conference in Moncton, New
Brunswick and I was particularly impressed by the tenure and
discussion that took place at that conference. There were
premiers and business leaders from the Atlantic provinces who all
had one theme at this vision conference, a vision for the
Atlantic provinces. It was led by the premier of New Brunswick.
Today this gentleman has retired from his position but he said
to the assembled group “we want the federal government to get
out of the subsidy business, get out of the grant business and
give us that money in the form of tax breaks or reduced taxes”.
The Reform Party has talked about this for the last eight years.
We know that is the answer. The answer does not lie in subsidies
or grants. Grants and subsidies create dependency and operations
that are now competitive, operations that do not search out
markets, that do not have the incentive to apply the most recent
technology, the most efficient ways of applying that technology
and the most efficient deployment of personnel and people who are
skilled. That is what is wrong with subsidies.
What has to happen here is that the environment needs to change.
We said limit things like ACOA and grants and subsidies and then
these industries could become indeed competitive, search out the
markets and do the kinds of things that really matter.
From that point of view I support the motion but unfortunately
that is not what it states. It states one thing and I am not so
sure that it totally explores it the way it should. Perhaps the
motion could be reworded in such a way so that we could fully
support it and be enthusiastic about it.
The specific questions with regard to the shipbuilding industry
really could be summed up in two questions. First, is the
shipbuilding industry in trouble because it did not remain
competitive? Second, is it in trouble because there is not
enough of a market or the market is not large enough to sustain
another international global shipbuilder?
1835
Those are two absolutely critical questions. They lie at the
very base of a Canadian shipbuilding policy. What ought it to
be? I think the hon. member will agree that those are the key
questions. I do not have the answers to those questions.
I suspect that the Canadian Shipbuilding Association does not
have an answer to that question either, but I think it needs to
address those two questions and then come to wherever the policy
ought to change so that indeed the competitiveness of the
marketplace can be established as far as the shipbuilding
industry is concerned and the size of the market identified as to
whether the capacity for building ships ought to be expanded. I
think that is a major issue.
The hon. parliamentary secretary indicated that there was a
rationalization of the shipbuilding industry. Part of it was to
reduce the number of ships, and that is fine. However, what we
now need to do is not only rationalize in terms of the numbers of
ships that are to be built, but the kinds of ships that ought to
be built and the technology that exists in those ships so that
they can become competitive in the international marketplace and
that they will then build the kind of profit picture into the
people who own those shipbuilding yards so that they can hire
people and give them work so that they can supply their families
and friends with the things they need.
I wonder as well whether we should not become very serious about
this whole business of how industry ought to run in this country.
What kind of an environment ought the government to create for
this country so that business could compete?
The number one issue it seems to me is to have a level playing
field. We do not have a level playing field in Canada. It is
anything but level when the government interferes in the
marketplace with agencies like regional economic development
agency like ACOA, western economic, FEDNOR or whatever it is.
That creates an artificial intrusion into the marketplace.
When the government intrudes into the marketplace in giving
specific grants to particular industries that are not repaid,
that create an unfair advantage to the manufacturing agents
receiving that money over and against a group that does not. It
also raises the question of providing certain kinds of guaranteed
loans.
I understand under title 11 in the United States, which is
what I believe the member referred to, there have been no
defaults on the money that has been granted since 1936.
The significant aspect here is that we know that in Canada there
have been many defaults of various kinds of government repayable
loans. This is a double whammy on the taxpayer. First the
taxpayer is asked to give the grant or subsidy to a particular
industry. When that industry defaults, the taxpayer has to pay
again.
That is what is wrong with this kind of system. We cannot
afford to do that. I encourage the member to go back and reword
his motion slightly so that we could support it and recognize
that subsidies and grants are anathemas to good business.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, BQ): Mr.
Speaker,I am pleased to speak to this motion in my capacity as the
Bloc Quebecois transportation critic.
Let me begin by telling my colleague for Fundy—Royal that our
party finds his motion very interesting and is in favour of it.
Unfortunately, that support cannot take the form of votes, because
this motion is not votable. The debate this evening is, however,
highly relevent.
In Quebec we have the wonderful motto “Je me souviens”, but
sometimes unfortunately we do not use our memory effectively. I
will explain with an anecdote.
During the 1993 election campaign, I had the opportunity to
represent my party in a debate on Radio-Canada, participated in by
Jean Pelletier, the executive assistant of the current Prime
Minister, and the ineffable or unspeakable Pierre Blais, erstwhile
Minister of Justice in the Conservative government, a man very
taken with his own importance.
You will not be surprised to hear that, since this debate was
held in the greater Quebec City area and was apparently broadcast
as far away as the Magdalen Islands and the Portneuf region, the
question of the survival of MIL Davie Shipbuilding at Lauzon was
raised.
1840
Remember, this was 1993. I recall very clearly that Pierre
Blais, a Conservative minister, and therefore in the same party as
the member moving this motion, said to me “For the nine years that
the Conservative Party has been in office, it has given contracts
to MIL Davie”. I asked him how much they had given and his answer
was $1.2 billion.
I told Pierre Blais, the Conservative minister at the time,
that, while the Conservatives had given $1.2 billion to MIL Davie,
they had given $11 billion in contracts to shipyards in the
maritimes. This shows that, Liberal or Conservative, it makes no
difference.
Naturally, we agree that the government should provide tax
incentives to revitalize shipyards, but I would remind all our
listeners—and I am sure they include former employees of Canadian
Vickers in Montreal, Marine Industries in Sorel and present
employees of MIL Davie in Lauzon—that no more than 12 or 15 years
ago, Quebec had three major shipyards. They were responsible for
50% of the shipbuilding in Canada, and the only province that has
rationalized its shipyards is Quebec.
Canadian Vickers was shut down; Marine Industries in Sorel
also shut down, leaving only Mil Davie. Meanwhile, the
Conservatives encouraged the founding of shipyards in the
maritimes. The people at MIL Davie in Lauzon did their bit. They
rationalized.
Recently, when this shipyard was sold, when the present Government
of Quebec encouraged a private promoter to take it over, the men
and women of MIL Davie scrapped their collective agreement and
showed their complete flexibility in order to create a climate
conducive to building. All that remains is to deliver.
I want to tell you that the management of MIL Davie or Les
Industries Davie, as it is now called, has shown leadership. Last
August 30, the Port of Quebec received the world's second largest
drilling platform, the Spirit of Columbus, which will be repaired
in the port by people from Les Industries Davie, providing
employment for 400. Les Industries Davie has shown that it can
land international contracts.
What I am concerned about, however, is having certain tax
incentives to encourage our Canadian shipowners to build ships here
and repair them here, in Quebec and in Canada. It is on this point
that I agree completely with the motion moved by my colleague, the
member for Fundy—Royal.
I would remind members that, during the term of office running
from 1993 to 1997, the Conservatives, with a leader and one member,
were not very visible in the House of Commons. But I will tell the
member for Fundy—Royal that the Standing Committee on Transport,
of which I was then a member, tabled a report in May 1995 that was
essentially the precursor of Bill C-9 now before us. This report
led to Bill C-44, which, as we know, died on the Order Paper, in
the Senate. That is why we are debating Bill C-9 again today.
The Standing Committee on Transport had tabled a report
entitled “A National Marine Strategy”. This report included a
recommendation, Recommendation No. 22, which I think is relevant.
The report gives an indication of the Liberal government's
willingness to go in this direction.
1845
This is what the Liberals promised in 1995. Recommendation 22
provided: “In order to ensure the long-term viability of the
Seaway, the federal government—this is the Liberal majority
speaking in committee—should give serious consideration to the
development of an incentive program to stimulate new construction
and refitting of Canadian and foreign flag Seaway-size ships based
on the essential condition that the work is done in Canadian
shipyards”.
We in the Bloc Quebecois prepared, with my colleague, a
minority report containing, if memory serves, 26 or 27
recommendations. There were some recommendations we certainly
could not live with. That is why we tabled a minority report.
This is what the dissenting report of the Bloc Quebecois said
with respect to Recommendation 22: “The Bloc Quebecois members on
the Committee are pleased to note that the majority of members
agreed with this proposed recommendation—that was our position.
They fervently hope that the minister will consider it as it is
vitally important to the future of the St. Lawrence Seaway and to
shipyards in Quebec and in Canada”.
So, bouquets aside, it is very important to note the Bloc's
concern. What we would like and what we want from the Liberal
government is for it to behave like Bernard Landry, the Quebec
minister of finance, in its next budget.
Minister Landry was congratulated by the shipbuilding industry on
the measures in his May 9, 1996 budget to encourage the building
and repair of ships here, in Quebec particularly.
This budget included four points that are of interest: a new
tax credit for builders; financial guarantees that would be given
through the SDI; a reduction in the capital tax on the acquisition
of ships; and, finally, a tax holiday for Quebec's sailors. These,
I think, are measures that encourage shipbuilding in Quebec and in
Canada.
The present Minister of Finance would do well, because we know
his links with Canada Steamship Lines, to propose these sorts of
incentives.
We are trying to fight a war with water pistols, because we know
that owners turn to other countries that have incredible tax
benefits to build their ships, and we are unable to compete. That
concludes my remarks.
[English]
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Eastern Shore, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I rise to speak in favour of the motion brought forward
by the hon. member for Fundy—Royal.
As my colleague, the member for Halifax West, stated yesterday
in the House, we in this party believe that Canada is in
desperate need of a national shipbuilding policy.
Shipbuilding has a vital place in the economy of this nation, in
its heritage and, more importantly, in the lives of numerous
coastal communities. To let it wither on the vine would be a
wanton act of industrial sabotage that would haunt the present
government for generations to come.
Canada was once a key player in the global shipbuilding
industry. As a major coastal nation and a central partner in the
Allied military effort during the second world war, Canada
entered the post-war years with a robust and healthy shipbuilding
sector.
Today, after decades of short-sighted Liberal and Conservative
stewardship, the industry is on its knees. The industry which
once was a vital part of our industrial base is now barely
afloat. We have reached the stage where we can barely meet our
own modest shipbuilding needs, let alone aspire to become a major
provider to the global market.
More sadly, the tragic lack of foresight and innovation
exhibited by successive Liberal and Conservative governments have
condemned thousands of highly skilled workers to unemployment or
idleness. Since the beginning of this decade alone, the
workforce in this sector has fallen from 12,000 to less than
5,000 hourly and salaried workers in 1996.
This is a shameful performance.
It is especially so when we reflect on the fact that these same
workers have made tremendous strides in improving their value
added and productivity per worker, increasing it by almost
one-quarter between 1986 and 1993. Alas, no such vision or
dynamism has been apparent in the approach taken by the
government to the future of this strategic sector. Apathy,
resignation and ineptitude have been the hallmarks of its
approach.
1850
The government approach has had devastating consequences. Total
sales of the Canadian shipbuilding sector have declined by about
one-half since 1991, from $1.5 billion to less than $800 million
in 1996. The decline in the value added of of the shipbuilding
industry to the Canadian GDP has been even more dramatic, falling
from $450 million in 1990 to less than $200 million today. While
other countries continue to make the necessary investment in
upgrading their shipbuilding yards and technology, with some
exceptions Canada has continued to rely on outdated capital
equipment.
Most forecasts suggest that the demand for new ships and marine
technology will grow rapidly in the coming years. The need to
modernize our Great Lakes fleet, the requirement for high speed
ferry and commuter services, developments in the offshore oil and
gas sector all point to a renewed demand for ships. However,
every indication at present is that Canada is in no position to
meet this renewed domestic demand.
If we are ill-equipped to meet domestic demand, our preparedness
to meet global demand is even weaker still. As world trade
grows, demand for new, economically efficient ships to replace an
aging world fleet will be strong. Close to one-third of the
world fleet is more than 20 years old. In sectors such as oil
tankers this figure is much higher. There is also demand for new
cruise ships from the expanding leisure industry. Opportunities
for economic growth in jobs in the coastal shipbuilding yards
abound, yet the minister sticks to his banal and naive view that
he will not be dragged into a subsidies bidding war.
I can assure the minister that while he clings to these
doctrinal absurdities, other nations are busily preparing
themselves to meet the renewed demand. The U.S. with its Jones
Act ensures that cargo carried between U.S. ports is carried
aboard U.S. ships that are U.S. built, U.S. registered, U.S.
owned, U.S. crewed and repaired and serviced by U.S. firms.
European nations use innovative tax credits, competitive bank
financing, share purchases and tax shelter programs to encourage
investment in shipbuilding. In Germany, for instance,
individuals or corporations who invest in ship shares receive
total deductions equal to 100% of the total investment.
The do nothing approach taken by this government to date is no
longer acceptable. Canada must show some audacity and seek to
develop new markets for our industry in niche areas such as
ferries, icebreakers or specialized cargo ships. Canada must get
out of the business of subsidizing foreign shipbuilders, many of
whom utilize cheap labour and fail to comply with fair social and
environmental standards.
Since the completion of the frigate building process and the
refurbishment of Tribal class destroyers, Canada's shipbuilding
industry has been waiting in vain for direction from Ottawa. Hard
pressed coastal regions are looking to Ottawa to abandon its
dismal hands off policy which has been so fatal to the industry.
As it is increasingly obvious that neither the minister nor his
senior officials have any idea how they might begin to
re-invigorate the industry, let me suggest some basic life
support measures which would benefit the industry over the medium
to longer term.
First, let us rid ourselves of the short-sighted and damaging
notion that private market forces alone should determine the
future development of this important industry. While we do not
endorse an escalating subsidy war, it is time to recognize that
governments have a role to play in managing a fair allocation of
shipbuilding production between competing countries. A managed
trade approach, akin to the auto pact, would ensure that the
Canadian shipbuilding industry would receive an overall volume of
new orders consistent with our own shipbuilding requirements.
This would amount to the extension of the U.S. Jones Act
principle to international shipping and would ensure that each
major seagoing nation would achieve a certain target level of
shipbuilding activity.
Second, the government should lobby for the inclusion in any
future international agreement regulating shipbuilding of a
social clause. The problem in the past was that the term subsidy
had been defined too narrowly. In many countries anti-union
laws, low wages and non-existent health and safety laws amount to
a subsidy to private shipbuilders. In these cases a subsidy is
paid by the workers through lower wages or less safe working
conditions rather than explicitly by the government.
We recommend that future international agreements in relation to
subsidies take a broader view and include a social clause
requiring participating countries to respect basic social,
democratic and labour norms.
1855
Third, we must recognize and co-ordinate the close links that
exist between the regulation of the shipping industry and
government efforts to support the shipbuilding industry.
In the past, shippers have been given too much discretion to
select companies on the basis of price alone. The result has been
that considerations relating to Canadian content, basic health
and safety and environmental concerns have been neglected. In
many cases the trade in Canada has become dominated by foreign
flag vessels, flying flags of convenience from low tax
jurisdictions such as Panama.
In fact, it is alleged by observers of the industry that Canada
Steamship Lines, a company owned by the finance minister, has
made use of these tax evading measures in the past. We believe
that to be simply scandalous. It is time for Canada to implement
a Jones like act that would require minimum levels of Canadian
content in shipping activities. Furthermore, it is time that we
insisted that ships traversing Canada's inland waterways be
Canadian built and Canadian flagged.
Fourth, Canada has long been relying on its production and
export of natural resources. We now recognize that greater value
must be added to these raw, unprocessed resources here in Canada.
It follows that Canada should be more involved in constructing,
maintaining and operating the vessels that carry our natural
resources to their destination markets. Canada is a great trading
nation and it makes obvious sense that we have shipping and
shipbuilding industries that reflect our stature as one of the
top ten exporting nations.
Finally, it is time the government paid greater attention to
maintaining appropriate levels of investment in our coastal
infrastructure. Liberal cutbacks to lighthouses, coast guard
search and rescue services, port upkeep and other maritime
services have been highly detrimental to the safety, security and
efficiency of our maritime communities. New public investment is
needed by the coast guard and would generate additional work for
Canadian shipyards.
In conclusion, I would like to state that we reject the view
that the key decisions affecting the shipbuilding industries
should be left to private shipbuilders and the private shipping
companies. It is time for the government to embrace the public
interest in promoting a vibrant, domestic shipbuilding sector.
Shipbuilding workers, coastal communities and Canada's status as
a major maritime nation are too important to be left to the
vagaries of the marketplace.
To my colleague for Fundy—Royal, I too endorse your request
that this important motion be a votable one. I will do what I
can to support the motion. I beg your indulgence, Mr. Speaker,
to look into that aspect.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to be able to participate tonight in the debate on the
motion of my colleague for Fundy—Royal which urges the
government to develop a national shipbuilding policy.
I heard the hon. member from the government talking about money
that has been invested in shipyards. The shipyard at Saint John
is the most modern shipyard in the whole of Canada and perhaps,
in the world. That is because of what the Liberals and the
Conservatives have done in the past.
The investment is there but now the shipyard cannot compete.
There is no work and it is sitting idle. The private industry
people who own the shipyard are very frustrated and are saying
that changes have to be made. They have spoken with a number of
members.
I rose in the House this past week and asked the Minister of
Industry if he was going to look at a shipbuilding policy to put
our people back to work. His statement was that the government
is not in the subsidy business. I want to make it clear that we
are not advocating subsidies at all. We are seeking the
simplification of regulations to enhance the industry's export
capabilities. That does not mean subsidies.
There are two specific areas where the industry can be helped to
be more competitive: improvements to export financing and loan
guarantees and the exclusion of newly Canadian constructed ships
from the present Revenue Canada leasing regulations. For the
life of me I cannot understand why the government would not look
favourably on that. It is done for rail cars, for vans, trucks
and computers.
Over 10,000 people in the country would be put back to work.
The Liberals can become heroes. When they do it, we will stand
up and applaud. Those trained people are being told to go to
Calgary, Alberta and look for work, or go to Texas and look for
work. And what happens then? The families come to us saying
“Daddy is gone. Daddy is not coming back.”
1900
We have an obligation to put our people to work ad we have an
opportunity to do that. We have an opportunity to make use of
the tremendous investments that have been put into Canada in all
our shipyards. So we are saying to them please, please. We are
not saying subsidies, no. I understand the Minister of Industry
has heard form the private sector this week to clarify that when
that was his answer to my question.
Lease financing has become a predominant method of financing
significant capital items. However, the regulations as presently
stipulated make ownership and lease financing of a Canadian
constructed vessel very unattractive if not uneconomical.
I am saying tonight that we can all work together on this. This
must be a votable item. Like my hon. colleague from
Fundy—Royal, I would like to seek unanimous consent to declare
this motion votable.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): For the
clarification of the Chair, is the hon. member moving to seek
unanimous consent to have this made a votable item? Has it been
seconded? If so, by whom?
Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I moving that,
seconded by the hon. member for Fundy—Royal.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Does the hon. member
for Saint John have unanimous consent to have this motion made
votable?
An hon. member: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): There has not been
unanimous consent. The time provided for the consideration of
Private Members' Business has now expired and the order is
dropped from the Order Paper.
ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
[English]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to
have been moved.
HEALTH
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, my comments today flow from my question to the Minister
of Health on October 3 pertaining to the influence of
multinationals over this government's drug policies and drug
pricing policies. Perhaps the fact that we are discussing this
issue on the same day that the Minister of Health publicly caved
in to the tobacco industry says it all.
There is a very disturbing pattern taking place with respect to
Liberal style government and Liberal legislative priorities. The
influence of multinational corporations over policy development
and decision making is apparent in every area and pervasive
throughout this government. On every turn the public's interests
have been subsumed by commercial interests.
Whatever happened to the idea of government as an instrument of
the people, as a truly democratic institution reflecting the
collective interests of society, the institution protecting the
common good? It is increasingly apparent that this government is
beholden absolutely to the big corporations, the bankers, the
stockbrokers and the bondholders in the global community today,
that it is no longer able to distinguish between the public
interest and the commercial interest. Nowhere is this more
apparent than when it comes to drug policy.
I do not think anyone can dispute the fact that this government
is absolutely controlled by the big brand name drug companies.
Let me refer to the evidence, the complete flip-flop by the
Liberals on Bill C-91 legislation to extend patent protection to
20 years for multinational drug companies. When in opposition
Liberals stood up and talked about government siding with
multinationals on drug policy. What did they do when they became
government? They simply carried on with Bill C-91.
That brings me to my second concern. What did they do when the
standing committee reviewed this issue last year? What happened
to the draft report of that committee?
Why was it watered down so that all meaningful recommendations
were eliminated?
1905
Third, let us mention the elimination of the drug research lab,
the one independent bureau we have in this country for research
into drugs. This government eliminated it and put the
responsibility into the hands of the drug companies.
Let me also point to the refusal of this government to ensure
that the work of the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board is
open and transparent.
Finally, let me refer to the backing away by this government
from a promise made as recently as the last election for a
national drug plan. In that campaign the Liberals promised to
look at a publicly funded, universally administered single payer
drug plan, provided nationally. What did we get in the Speech
from the Throne and what have we heard from the minister and this
government since then? They are looking into the feasibility of
studying the possibility of better access to medically necessary
drugs.
My question today is why has this government changed its mind so
quickly on such an important program to Canadians. Is it so much
influenced by the big brand name companies and by the money that
those companies provide the Liberal coffers that it cannot put in
place good public policy?
Why has this government not taken seriously the concerns we
raised in the House on October 3 about an obvious and apparent
conflict of interest with employees from its own Patented
Medicine Prices Review Board—
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon.
Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health.
Mr. Joseph Volpe (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this is a great place because you
can get rhetoric and fiction or you can listen to parliamentary
secretaries and get fact and reality.
I am pleased to have the opportunity to give this House the
government's plans with respect to a national approach to
pharmacare.
One of the recommendations of the national forum on health was
the expansion of medicare to include other medically necessary
services such as home care and drugs. The federal government
intends to pursue the examination of these future directions
recommended by the national forum.
On drugs, for example, we will develop a national plan, a
timetable and a fiscal framework for providing Canadians with
better access to medically necessary drugs.
On pharmacare, the federal government recognizes that as a
country we can do better with how we deal with prescription drugs
in the health care system and with respect to the coverage that
is provided; in other words, with compliance and prescription. We
can do better with respect to integrating our health care system
and in allocating resources among drug therapy, hospital therapy
and medical care.
Drugs have become a medically necessary component of health care
and it is time for us to start talking about how we are going to
ensure that all Canadians have access to this care.
[Translation]
But the dialogue has just begun. The federal government has
no ready made national pharmacare scheme secretly prepared in
Ottawa. Canada's health care system is a partnership. The federal
government is counting on working fully with the provinces and the
territories to explore the possibility of pharmacare.
[English]
As part of the new health transition fund, $150 million over
three years announced in the last budget, the Minister of Health
will be co-hosting a national conference on pharmacare with the
minister of health for Saskatchewan. This will be an important
step in our discussions on a national approach to pharmacare.
The federal government wants to do what it can to promote
optimal drug therapy for all Canadians and a national approach to
pharmacare will make a significant contribution.
PUBLIC WORKS
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Tobique—Mactaquac, PC): Mr. Speaker,
on October 7 the auditor general released a report chronicling
serious deficiencies in the internal controls regulating the use
of government credit cards, also known as acquisition cards.
Since 1992 the use of acquisition cards has grown from 2,000 to
over 20,000 this past year, representing $172 million in
purchases in 1996 alone.
The idea behind the use of acquisition cards is sound. They
reduce the need of individual departments and public works to
process numerous cheques and purchase orders for small purchases
and thus save the government badly needed dollars. I believe any
idea that can save taxpayer money is definitely worth looking
into.
The problem with these cards, however, arises with the
implementation and administration of a proper control system and,
as documented so clearly the auditor general earlier this month,
the government has been at best sloppy, at worse apathetic, in
implementing such a system.
1910
For example, in his report the auditor general noted that credit
cards are not issued based on need and that the the credit limits
on cards seldom reflect the use of the cards. People who do not
need cards are getting them and people who should have cards are
not.
Further, employees do not accept responsibility for cards and
are not required to follow regulations. Employees are not
properly instructed on the use of acquisition cards. When an
employee leaves, cards are not properly cancelled. Even more
alarming is that government organizations do not monitor and
follow up card accounts that are inactive or that are suddenly
used after lying dormant.
Organizations do not monitor, verify or audit their employees'
purchases even though Treasury Board requires them to do so.
Often an employee can certify the payment of their own account
without management double checking to ensure that all purchases
are valid ones.
The auditor general also observed that cards were being used to
make unauthorized purchases. In many cases it was difficult to
tell if the card was actually being used by the employee to whom
it was registered or used by some other unauthorized person.
There was even evidence that items had been purchased on
government cards that were for non-government use.
The report went on to condemn the fact that quite often
departments do not know how many credit cards under their control
have been lost or stolen.
Finally to add insult to injury, during three months last year
the government was so shabby with its record keeping that it
racked up late payment charges of almost $80,000 because the
government could not pay its credit card bills on time.
I own a small convenience store in Tilley, New Brunswick. I can
say without prejudice that if I ran my store the way this
government goes about its business without proper control over
expenditures, I would certainly have been out of business years
ago.
Last week the minister stated that he felt there was not a
problem yet and that eventually the government would get around
to fixing it. If you have a leaky roof, is it good enough to say
that since it is not raining you do not have a problem?
Let me ask the minister once again. What steps is he prepared
to take to stop this reckless use of acquisition cards and
thereby save taxpayers from having to foot the bill for the
government's carelessness on this matter?
Mr. Ovid L. Jackson (Parliamentary Secretary to President of
the Treasury Board, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the government
welcomed the report of the auditor general on this issue. We
were pleased that no significant amount of damage or loss was
found at this time.
The acquisition card program was implemented in 1991 in an
effort to introduce greater efficiency in the way the government
procures small value goods and services such as office supplies.
Since the beginning, regular monitoring activities have been
introduced by the Treasury Board Secretariat. As well, clear
policy guidelines on the do's and don'ts of using such cards have
been provided to departments and employees and are updated
regularly.
In our times of restraint, departments are identifying better
ways of operating. The acquisition card program has proven to be
a very cost-effective method of procuring and paying for goods
and services. In fact since its inception we have had a savings
of some $6.5 million.
The auditor general's report will help us in focusing on further
improvements to the policy guidelines. In the coming months the
Treasury Board Secretariat will publish new guidelines designed
to address the concerns of the auditor general and to provide
departments and employees with comprehensive information and
guidance on the use of the acquisition cards.
In addition, further to a competitive processes, new contracts
will be awarded for acquisition cards. These new contracts,
effective January 1, 1998, will provide departments with
electronic tools to better control the use of the cards.
The government intends to monitor closely the acquisition card
program to prevent any abuse or losses. The government also
intends to continue to use the method of procurement and payment
which has proven to be both efficient and cost-effective for the
citizens of Canada.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The motion to adjourn
the House is deemed to have been adopted. The House stands
adjourned until 10 a.m. tomorrow, pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 7.14 p.m.)