36th Parliament, 2nd Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 34
CONTENTS
Friday, December 3, 1999
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
1005
| CRIMINAL CODE
|
| Bill C-18. Second reading
|
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| Mr. John Maloney |
1010
1015
| Mr. Eric Lowther |
1020
1025
| Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
1030
1035
1040
1045
1050
1055
| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN
|
| Mr. Yvon Charbonneau |
| VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN
|
| Mr. Inky Mark |
| PARLIAMENT HILL
|
| Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
1100
| PHILIPPINES
|
| Mr. Rey D. Pagtakhan |
| INTERNATIONAL DAY OF DISABLED PERSONS
|
| Mr. Ian Murray |
| INTERNATIONAL DAY OF DISABLED PERSONS
|
| Mr. Eric Lowther |
| INTERNATIONAL DAY OF DISABLED PERSONS
|
| Mr. Maurice Dumas |
| LANDMINES
|
| Mr. Andrew Telegdi |
1105
| FREEDOM OF SPEECH
|
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
| THE GREAT LAKES
|
| Mr. Brent St. Denis |
| REPUBLIC OF PALAU
|
| Mr. Odina Desrochers |
| JOB CREATION
|
| Mr. Robert Bertrand |
| RACISM
|
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
| EMPLOYMENT
|
| Mr. Tony Ianno |
1110
| SMALL BUSINESS IN PORT-CARTIER
|
| Mr. Ghislain Fournier |
| FIREARMS ACQUISITION CERTIFICATE
|
| Mr. Gerald Keddy |
| HANUKKAH
|
| Mr. Jacques Saada |
| TEMPSDEM DANCE COMPANY
|
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
| WORLD HOCKEY CHALLENGE
|
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
1115
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
| NATIONAL UNITY
|
| Mr. Grant Hill |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Grant Hill |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Grant Hill |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| FUNDRAISERS
|
| Mr. Grant McNally |
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| Mr. Grant McNally |
1120
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| REFERENDUMS
|
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| CANADA ELECTIONS ACT
|
| Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral |
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral |
| Hon. Don Boudria |
1125
| TRADE
|
| Ms. Bev Desjarlais |
| Mr. Bob Speller |
| Ms. Bev Desjarlais |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
| AIRLINE INDUSTRY
|
| Mr. Charlie Power |
| Mr. Stan Dromisky |
| Mr. Charlie Power |
| Mr. Stan Dromisky |
1130
| TAXATION
|
| Mr. Ken Epp |
| Mr. Roy Cullen |
| Mr. Charlie Penson |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| CHECHNYA
|
| Mrs. Francine Lalonde |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
| Mrs. Francine Lalonde |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
1135
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Jim Gouk |
| Hon. Robert D. Nault |
| Mr. Philip Mayfield |
| Hon. Robert D. Nault |
| AIRLINE INDUSTRY
|
| Mr. Stan Dromisky |
| Mr. Stan Dromisky |
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Darrel Stinson |
1140
| Hon. Robert D. Nault |
| Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
| Hon. Robert D. Nault |
| ORPHAN CLAUSES
|
| Mrs. Monique Guay |
| Hon. Claudette Bradshaw |
| LANDMINES
|
| Mr. John McKay |
| Hon. Maria Minna |
| FISHERIES
|
| Mr. John Duncan |
| Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal |
1145
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
| Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal |
| NATIONAL DEFENCE
|
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
| Mr. Robert Bertrand |
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
| Mr. Robert Bertrand |
| HEALTH
|
| Mr. John Herron |
| Mr. Yvon Charbonneau |
| Mr. John Herron |
| Mr. Yvon Charbonneau |
1150
| NATIONAL DEFENCE
|
| Mr. David Pratt |
| Mr. Robert Bertrand |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. Rick Casson |
| Mr. Bob Speller |
| ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE
|
| Mr. Yvan Loubier |
| Mr. Jacques Saada |
| THE ENVIRONMENT
|
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
| Mr. Yvon Charbonneau |
| FISHERIES
|
| Mr. Mark Muise |
1155
| Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal |
| CENSUS
|
| Mr. Mac Harb |
| Hon. John Manley |
| PRISONS
|
| Mr. Myron Thompson |
| Mr. Jacques Saada |
| PCB CONTAMINATED SOILS
|
| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
| Mr. Stan Dromisky |
| PORT OF BELLEDUNE
|
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
| Mr. Stan Dromisky |
| SEARCH AND RESCUE
|
| Mr. Mark Muise |
1200
| Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal |
| POINT OF ORDER
|
| Oral Question Period
|
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
| HOUSE OF COMMONS
|
| The Speaker |
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
| COLUMBIA RIVER TREATY
|
| Mr. Brent St. Denis |
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Procedure and House Affairs
|
| Ms. Marlene Catterall |
| BANK ACT
|
| Bill C-391. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Mac Harb |
1205
| CANADA SEAT BELT ACT
|
| Bill C-392. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Mac Harb |
| CONSUMER CREDIT INFORMATION ACT
|
| Bill C-393. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Mac Harb |
| DEFICIT PREVENTION ACT
|
| Bill C-394. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Mac Harb |
| PROTECTION OF PRIVACY (SOCIAL INSURANCE NUMBERS) ACT
|
| Bill C-395. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Mac Harb |
| INCOME TAX ACT
|
| Bill C-396. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Mac Harb |
| PETITIONS
|
| Adoption
|
| Mr. Eric Lowther |
1210
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Ms. Carolyn Parrish |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| CRIMINAL CODE
|
| Bill C-18. Second reading
|
| Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
1215
1220
1225
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
1230
1235
1240
| NISGA'A FINAL AGREEMENT ACT
|
| Bill C-9—Notice of time allocation
|
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| CRIMINAL CODE
|
| Bill C-18. Second reading
|
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
1245
1250
1255
| Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
1300
1305
| Mr. Mark Muise |
1310
| Mr. John McKay |
1315
1320
| Mr. Eric Lowther |
1325
| Mr. Myron Thompson |
| Mr. Darrel Stinson |
| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
1330
| CANADA LABOUR CODE
|
| Bill C-212. Second reading
|
| Mrs. Monique Guay |
1335
1340
1345
| Mr. Steve Mahoney |
1350
1355
| Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
1400
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
1405
1410
| Mr. Charlie Power |
1415
1420
| Mr. John McKay |
1425
| Mrs. Monique Guay |
| Appendix
|
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 34
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Friday, December 3, 1999
The House met at 10 a.m.
Prayers
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
1005
[English]
CRIMINAL CODE
Hon. Don Boudria (for the Minister of Justice and Attorney
General of Canada) moved that Bill C-18, an act to amend the
Criminal Code (impaired driving causing death and other matters),
be read the second time and referred to a committee.
Mr. John Maloney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
with Bill C-18 of the present session and Bill C-82 of the
previous session, the government has responded positively to
every one of the 10 recommendations made by the Standing
Committee on Justice and Human Rights for specific amendments to
Criminal Code provisions related to impaired driving.
[Translation]
In October 1997, the House of Commons directed the standing
committee to review the impaired driving provisions of the
Criminal Code. On May 25, 1999 the committee tabled its report
entitled “Toward Eliminating Impaired Driving” with an appended
draft bill.
Within two weeks of receiving that report, the government
introduced Bill C-82, which was fast-tracked and given royal
assent, as amended, on June 17, 1999.
[English]
As tabled, Bill C-82 followed very closely the draft bill which
the standing committee had appended to its report.
In order to achieve speedy passage, the provision raising the
maximum penalty for impaired driving causing death to life
imprisonment was removed from Bill C-82 and placed in Bill C-87.
Bill C-82 came into force on July 1, 1999. With prorogation,
Bill C-87 died on the order paper. The government committed
itself to reintroducing in this session the provision that was
found within Bill C-87.
Bill C-82 amended seven penalty provisions and one investigation
provision as follows. It increased the minimum fine for impaired
driving offences to $600. It raised the minimum driving
prohibitions for all impaired driving offenders and increased the
maximum driving prohibitions for second and subsequent offenders.
The bill specified that judges must consider a blood alcohol
concentration reading above 160 milligrams per cent as an
aggravating factor in sentencing.
It specified that a judge may make a probation order for
assessment and treatment in relation to addiction in a
jurisdiction that has such a program. The bill also specified
that a judge may make a probation order for ignition interlock
use in a jurisdiction that has such a program. It introduced a
new maximum penalty of 10 years of imprisonment for leaving the
scene of an accident knowing that someone was injured. It also
introduced a new maximum penalty of life imprisonment for leaving
the scene of an accident knowing that there was a death or an
injury and not caring whether death ensued and death did ensue.
It raised the maximum penalty for driving while disqualified to
five years of imprisonment where the crown elects to proceed by
indictment. Finally, the bill extended the period from two hours
to three hours during which an officer with reasonable grounds to
believe an impaired driving offence had occurred can demand a
breath sample.
1010
Bill C-18 follows through on the government's commitment to
reintroduce the provision found in Bill C-87. It would raise the
maximum penalty for impaired driving causing death from 14 years
to life imprisonment, as recommended by the Standing Committee on
Justice and Human Rights in its report. This maximum penalty
would equal the maximum penalty for the offences of manslaughter
and for criminal negligence causing death.
A maximum penalty is reserved for cases involving the worst
offender in the worst factual circumstances. However, even when
considering the appropriate sentences for offenders who are not
sentenced to the maximum penalty, the courts can consider the
fact that the maximum penalty for an offence has been raised and
adjust the penalty accordingly. This amendment will contribute
to the message that still needs to be sent: society will not
tolerate impaired driving.
There is another amendment in Bill C-18 that implements the
positive response by the government to a recommendation made by
the standing committee in its report “Toward Eliminating
Impaired Driving”. This is an amendment that would add drugs to
section 256 of the criminal code as a basis upon which a peace
officer may seek a warrant to obtain a blood sample. Currently,
the warrant may only be sought where the officer reasonably
believes that a driver committed an impaired driving offence
involving alcohol, in circumstances involving an injury or a
death, and where the driver is unable to consent to the taking of
a blood sample. This will add to the tools that peace officers
may use in investigating certain drug impaired driving offences
committed in violation of paragraph 253(a) of the criminal code.
Besides meeting commitments for specific legislative changes
made by the government on October 22, 1999, when it tabled its
response to the report of the Standing Committee on Justice and
Human Rights, Bill C-18 also contains two provisions that are
technical in nature.
One of these would amend the French definition of a motor
vehicle found in section 2 of the criminal code to accord with
the English definition, which excludes vehicles propelled by
means of muscular power.
The other technical amendment will delete the offence of driving
while disqualified from the list of indictable offences found in
section 553 of the code that come within the absolute
jurisdiction of a provincial court judge. This is necessary
because Bill C-82 raised the maximum penalty for driving while
disqualified from two years to five years of imprisonment where
the crown proceeds by indictment. The charter provides the right
to a jury trial for an offence carrying a maximum penalty of five
years or more. Therefore, the amendment in Bill C-18 will ensure
that section 553 is in compliance with the charter.
The government did not naively believe when it put forward the
amendments contained in Bill C-82 that criminal code changes by
themselves would eliminate all incidents of impaired driving. Nor
was the standing committee naive in makings its proposals. The
criminal law must do its part in the struggle against impaired
driving; however, other systems must also fulfill their important
parts. Governments, many public and private organizations,
families and individuals have contributed to a real shift in
public attitudes toward impaired driving over a period of time.
However, despite significant reductions over the past decade in
the percentage of fatally injured drivers who have a blood
alcohol concentration exceeding the legal limit, the remaining
extent of impaired driving is still an enormous problem. The
government will continue to work with other governments and
organizations to combat impaired driving.
In addition to continuing work in the field of criminal law,
prevention and educational work related to impaired driving is
carried out by Health Canada as part of Canada's national drug
strategy. Improving road safety measures to fight impaired
driving is an important aspect of work carried out by Transport
Canada. If we have learned anything from the standing
committee's review of the impaired driving provisions, it is that
individuals and organizations are working with various levels of
government and police agencies to develop a combination of
countermeasures that will eliminate impaired driving.
It has been a pleasure to observe parliamentarians of all
political stripes laying aside partisan politics and working
together in order to address the serious problem of impaired
driving. I wish especially to thank all members of the standing
committee for their hard work in writing a report and drafting
legislation to meet a common goal.
1015
It is also gratifying to see the extent of public interest and
participation in the development of criminal law responses to
impaired driving.
While we may not all agree on every measure that has been
proposed to eliminate impaired driving, together we have taken
some important steps which improve the criminal law and
contribute to the combination of measures aimed against impaired
driving.
I ask that members of the House give their support to Bill C-18
which responds to the standing committee's remaining two
recommendations for specific criminal code amendments.
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise today to speak to Bill C-18. I heard the member opposite
applaud the standing committee and the work it has done. I too
concur that the work that has been done on this particular bill
is very positive and serves to protect the lives of Canadians
from the tragedy of harm and death that can come from impaired
driving.
This particular bill, as the member opposite has just stated, is
intended to increase the maximum penalty for impaired driving
causing death to life imprisonment, providing for the taking of
blood samples for the purposes of testing for the presence of a
drug and making a number of other amendments as detailed here.
I want to draw attention to the excellent work of my colleague
from Prince George—Bulkley Valley on this particular initiative
and the long persistent road that he has been on to bring this
forward to the House of Commons. The very reason that this issue
was even before the standing committee was largely due to the
result, effort and the determination of one particular member of
the Reform Party, the member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley.
Let me allow the House to reflect, and those watching today, on
the long road it has travelled to actually get this bill to the
House here today. It was more than three years ago, February
1996, that a private member's bill was put forward by the member
for Prince George—Bulkley Valley with the Reform Party, Bill
C-201. It was an act to amend the criminal code to provide for a
seven year minimum sentence for those convicted of impaired
driving causing death. At that time there was no minimum jail
term. The maximum sentence was unclear. The bill was defeated
in the House by a margin of 31 votes.
Mr. Speaker, you might think that might be the end of the story,
that the hon. member might have quit there after having finally
got his bill to the floor and votable, which is not an easy thing
to do in the House. There is a long series of lotteries, in
effect, that one has to go through to get to that point. He got
his bill to the floor with great public support and yet it was
defeated in the House.
That was not going to deter the member for Prince
George—Bulkley Valley. On December 2, 1996, because of the
great public support for what he was doing, he proposed a private
member's motion, M-78. The motion read that pursuant to Standing
Order 68(4)(a), the Standing Committee on Justice and Human
Rights be instructed to prepare and bring in a bill to amend
those sections of the criminal code which deal with impaired
driving in order to (a) enhance deterrents and (b) ensure that
the penalties reflect the seriousness of the offence.
He did not give up on the bill and he went ahead with a motion.
That motion then was unanimously adopted by the House of Commons
on February 7, 1997, a year after he had started this initiative.
That started the ball rolling in a sense here in the House of
Commons. On October 30, 1997, another motion, M-78, was
introduced as an opposition day motion. Nothing really happened
on the first motion but to keep the pressure on, this member
again brought it forward in our caucus. He brought it forward as
an opposition day motion. The member for Prince George—Bulkley
Valley proposed Motion No. M-78, which again asked for the
unanimous consent of the House and with further instruction that
the justice committee carry out a review and report back to the
House of Commons with legislation by May 15, 1998.
Unfortunately, the government took no action at all even though
that motion was given unanimous consent. Nothing happened even
though it was approved by the House of Commons. There was no
movement by the government opposite. There may be a variety of
reasons for that.
1020
The main thing here that was important to people who supported
this initiative of the Reform Party member for Prince
George—Bulkley Valley was that they wanted to see some action
and there was none. It was not until the fall of 1998 that an
extension to the deadline was agreed to just to keep it alive
until November 30, 1998.
It was because of not wanting to let this die, because we wanted
to keep it alive, the member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley
negotiated to extend the deadline to May 15, 1999. More than
three years from when he started this initiative he would not let
go of this much needed legislation to protect the innocent from
the damaging and sometimes life terminating effects of drunk
driving.
The committee conducted hearings throughout February and March,
1999 and tabled its report in the House in late May. The
resulting legislation, Bill C-82, which was part of a package,
was passed by the House and came into effect on July 1, 1999. It
was a long road to see a good section of what was called for by
the member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley. It was
strengthened, admittedly, by the committee and was adopted by the
House.
On December 1 the bill we are debating today was introduced,
Bill C-18. It deals with some sections that some members of the
House were not comfortable having included in Bill C-82. We are
moving ahead today on Bill C-18. We are hopeful that Bill C-18
will be passed by the House and this will complete the long road
that the Reform Party, led by the member for Prince
George—Bulkley Valley, has championed.
This whole persistent determination to see good legislation
brought forward to protect Canadians and the lives of Canadians
by a member of the Reform Party reminds me of other pieces of
legislation that this party has brought forward in the House and
has caused changes to occur that have subsequently been adopted
and championed as their own by the Liberal Party opposite. I do
not begrudge that. I suppose that is part of the dynamics here.
But today I want to reflect on some of the other impacts the
opposition has had on positive legislation in the House.
For example, some of the changes to the Young Offenders Act that
have occurred recently in the new youth criminal justice act were
largely brought about by members of our party. I know there are
many members opposite who would agree with that. The requirement
to have parents in the courtroom when juveniles are being
sentenced is an initiative of the Reform Party. The requirement
to have some degree of accountability for parents when a charged
youth is released into their custody was an initiative of the
Reform Party that has been adopted in the youth criminal justice
act. There are many other initiatives as well. I suspect we
would not even have seen the changes to the youth criminal
justice act that are being proposed had it not been for the
pressure that was put forward by members of the Reform Party
responding to the concerns of the public, of grassroots
Canadians.
We are all celebrating a balanced budget but I can remember back
in 1998 looking at the information put forward by the Reform
Party that showed a huge debt hole that had been dug by previous
Tory and Liberal administrations. Just as Bill C-18 and Bill
C-82 were initiatives of members of the Reform Party, so it was
that it was the Reform Party responding to the deep debt that had
been incurred by these previous governments that pressured for
balanced budgets which today we have.
1025
I had a bill that was designed to better protect children from
sex offenders, particularly when those sex offenders want to work
for an institution that cares for children, allowing these
institutions or volunteer organizations to better do a complete
assessment if there was any record of this person who wants to
work with that organization.
That bill was passed by the House twice, made it through
committee and, in fact, went on to the Senate. Unfortunately,
after prorogation I do not believe that bill has been resubmitted
by the Liberal government into the Senate and it now floats in
the ozone. However, that does not mean we are going to give up
on it. Again, a particular initiative brought forward by the
official opposition to better protect children.
Again, another member of our party brought forward the whole
initiative on organ donation, organ transplants and saving of
lives through appropriate legislation to allow for that activity.
Once more the Liberal government has responded to another good
idea from the Reform Party and the official opposition.
One I know we will all remember, it is recent, is the call right
across the country from families calling for fair family
taxation. Last year we had a public outcry from those tired of
tax policies that discriminate against certain family choices of
child care. There was a call by single income parents across the
country for fair family taxation so that the dollars and the
choices are left in the hands of parents. What happened with
that was it forced the subcommittee of finance to actually look
at this whole issue. A report came out of that committee that
contained a number of good recommendations.
Again, that whole issue was brought forward and brought to light
in the House through the Reform Party responding to public
pressure from across the country.
Let me return to Bill C-18. I want to conclude my comments by
applauding again the Reform Party member for Prince
George—Bulkley Valley who met with the Mothers Against Drunk
Driving from coast to coast and attended many of their meetings.
He brought forward their issues in the House during question
period and during statement time as well as their petitions from
across the country.
There are a lot of things that demand our time here in the House
of Commons. He could have chosen to do other things, but he
responded to the outcry of parents who have had children killed
or spouses maimed by drunk drivers. He said “No, I am not going
to let this go”.
He persisted until today we have legislation in the form of Bill
C-82 that has been passed by this House and is going on to be
made law, and now Bill C-18 to complete the package. It makes me
proud to stand among my peers in the Reform Party. We are
responding to the concerns of the grassroots. We are bringing
forward issues and getting them into committee where they can be
heard by committee members and witnesses can be brought forward.
In effect it demonstrates that, collectively, in the House when
we can get a good idea into committee and the members opposite
hear the witnesses, it can result in excellent legislation.
Again, I applaud the member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley
and the Reform Party for the leadership shown on this particular
issue.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Mr. Speaker, once
again in the area of justice we are going to play the spoiler
role, because this bill is completely unacceptable.
Perhaps not the part dealing with taking samples, because I
argued in favour of that, even in committee, but the provision
calling for life sentences for impaired driving.
In the forty minutes available to me I shall attempt to show
why.
Forty minutes is a very short time, however, to try to convince
the government over there on this subject, which is both truly
important and extremely serious.
1030
I consider it a privilege to speak on Bill C-18.
Today, what we are debating is not the seriousness of the
offence of impaired driving causing death. We all agree that
this is unacceptable, and ought never to happen, absolutely
never.
Not one member of this House would contradict the Minister of
Justice on that point.
Every parliamentarian sympathizes with the victims of the
horrible negligence suffered by some of our fellow citizens.
This is why we must fight this unforgivable excess, which takes
away too many innocent lives.
As long as there are victims of impaired drivers, something must
be done. The problem must be addressed directly. There can be
no hiding behind easy measures. As long as the statistics show
there are victims, the Bloc Quebecois will take an interest in
the issue, try to prove certain approaches and work on it.
However, today the objective of the legislation is not my
problem. The objective is a good one. I support it.
My problem is not with it.
We all want to reduce the number of deaths on our roads, and as
quickly as possible, but the means to this end proposed by the
Minister of Justice are inappropriate, unacceptable even. The
minister's approach is too simplistic. I would say even that
the minister's approach is quite senseless.
What the minister is claiming is not too complicated. I would
say even that it is so uncomplicated as to be irresponsible.
She simply says “Pass this bill. Let us impose life
imprisonment and the number of highway deaths will drop”. That
is magical thinking but it is pretty simplistic.
With Bill C-18, the Minister of Justice intimates that
incarceration is effective in the fight against impaired driving .
According to her, the threat of life imprisonment should have a
direct influence on the behaviour of potentially dangerous
citizens.
In her opinion—and Mr. Speaker I am sure you fully agree with
me because you are a very wise man—the risk of getting life
imprisonment instead of a 14 year sentence would have an impact
on the behaviour of uncle Joe or cousin Pete who, for example,
partied a little too hard at Christmas or New Year. The minister
is saying “Let us send a clear message to the public”. One
wonders whether the minister is not confusing the terms message
with cheap publicity.
Either way, such a communication plan could end up costing us
dearly in the long term, particularly since there is absolutely
no guarantee that it will work.
Actually, Bill C-18 should trigger a substantive debate on the
excessive use of incarceration by this government. We have here
a government that chooses the easy way, the simple way out. The
equation used by the government, particularly since the current
Minister of Justice was appointed, is the following one:
seriousness of offence plus pressure from the right
automatically equals unjustified extension of jail terms. This
is some formula coming from a Minister of Justice.
Unfortunately, this is what the Liberal government has got us
used to in recent years.
1035
It goes without saying that those who oppose this simplistic
approach are not always making friends, but I am not in politics
primarily to make friends. I am in politics to get messages
across, to make common sense prevail, to remind the government
opposite that it is going in the wrong direction.
Those of us who oppose this simplistic approach are being
accused of lacking compassion for the victims and of
systematically siding with the accused, which is not the case,
of course. Those who are aware of what goes on in the Standing
Committee on Justice know very well that this is not the case.
The opponents of the doctrine of law and order are also accused
of being soft on law. If the responsible approach being taken
by the Bloc Quebecois is synonymous with being soft on law, the
Bloc Quebecois is only too glad to be so labelled, particularly
as it is not alone in advocating a responsible approach to
justice.
Recently, the supreme court had occasion to warn the public and
the Liberal government in particular about overreliance on jail
sentences as a means of reducing crime-related problems.
I would like to take a few minutes of my speech to quote the
Supreme Court of Canada on some extremely important matters,
because it is clear from Bill C-18 and all the bills the Minister
of Justice is introducing lately, including the young offenders
bill, that the minister and the government have not read this
extremely important decision.
I am referring to the Gladue decision handed down last year by
the judges of the supreme court, some of whom, including Justice
Cory, put the federal government on trial for its sentencing
policy.
Members might wish to make a note of the Gladue
decision, and take a look at it, because it is very important
and the Liberal government might perhaps change its approach to
justice.
I will therefore read an important part of the Gladue
decision dealing with what the court described as “the problem
of overincarceration in Canada”. The excerpt I would like to
read goes as follows:
Canada is a world leader in many fields, particularly in the
areas of progressive social policy and human rights.
Unfortunately, our country is also distinguished as being a
world leader in putting people in prison.
Although the United States has by far the highest rate of
incarceration among industrialized democracies, at over 600
inmates per 100,000 population, Canada's rate of approximately
130 inmates per 100,000 population places it second or third
highest. Moreover, the rate at which Canadian courts have been
imprisoning offenders has risen sharply in recent years,
although there has been a slight decline of late. This record of
incarceration rates obviously cannot instil a sense of pride.
This is not the Bloc Quebecois member for Berthier—Montcalm, but
a justice of the Supreme Court of Canada who is saying that
“This record of incarceration rates obviously cannot instil a
sense of pride”. The decision then reads as follows:
The systematic use of the sanction of imprisonment in Canada may
be dated to the building of the Kingston Penitentiary in 1835.
I hope this has no link whatsoever with the Chair, but there was
certainly something political in all of this, because if a
prison was built in Kingston, it had to filled up. Therefore,
people had to be sent to prison. This is not the supreme court
justice talking, but the member for Berthier—Montcalm.
Now back to the decision:
The penitentiary sentence was itself originally conceived as an
alternative to the harsher penalties of death, flogging, or
imprisonment in a local jail.
Sentencing reformers advocated the use of penitentiary
imprisonment as having effects which were not only deterrent,
denunciatory, and preventive, but also rehabilitative.
with long hours spent in contemplation and hard work contributing to the
betterment of the offender.
1040
However, things have changed since that time.
The supreme court goes on to say:
Notwithstanding its idealistic origins, imprisonment quickly
came to be condemned as harsh and ineffective, not only in
relation to its purported rehabilitative goals, but also in
relation to its broader public goals.
The history of Canadian commentary regarding the use and
effectiveness of imprisonment as a sanction was recently well
summarized by Vancise J.A., dissenting in the Saskatchewan Court
of Appeal in McDonald, supra.
This justice said:
A number of inquiries and commissions have been held in this
country to examine, among other things, the effectiveness of the
use of incarceration in sentencing. There has been at least one
commission or inquiry into the use of imprisonment in each
decade of this century since 1914.
At this point, I would like the members opposite to listen very
closely.
An examination of the recommendations of these reports reveals
one constant theme: imprisonment should be avoided if possible
and should be reserved for the most serious offences,
particularly those involving violence.
They all recommend
restraint in the use of incarceration and recognize that
incarceration has failed to reduce the crime rate and should be
used with caution and moderation.
Imprisonment has failed to
satisfy a basic function of the Canadian judicial system which
was described in the Report of the Canadian Committee on
Corrections entitled: “Toward Unity: Criminal Justice and
Corrections” (1969)
As “to protect society from crime in a
manner commanding public support while avoiding needless injury
to the offender”.
The supreme court continues its analysis and says:
Canada does not imprison as high a portion of its population as
does the United States. However, we do imprison more people than
most other western democracies.
The Criminal Code displays an
apparent bias toward the use of incarceration since for most
offences the penalty indicated is expressed in terms of a
maximum term of imprisonment.
A number of difficulties arise if
imprisonment is perceived to be the preferred sanction for most
offences.
Perhaps most significant is that although we regularly impose
this most onerous and expensive sanction, it accomplishes very
little—
I repeat “accomplishes very little”. This is in reference to
imprisonment.
The court continues:
In the past few decades many groups and federally
appointed committees and commissions given the responsibility of
studying various aspects of the criminal justice system have
argued that imprisonment should be used only as a last resort.
This is important and it is the justices of the supreme court
who are saying so. They go on:
With equal force, in Taking Responsibility the Standing
Committee on Justice and Solicitor General stated—
This is in 1988, not many years ago. The committee said:
It is now generally recognized that imprisonment has not been
effective in rehabilitating or reforming offenders, has not been
shown to be a strong deterrent, and has achieved only temporary
public protection and uneven retribution, as the lengths of
prison sentences handed down vary for the same type of crime.
They go on:
Since imprisonment generally offers the public protection from
criminal behaviour for only a limited time, rehabilitation of
the offender is of great importance. However, prisons have not
generally been effective in reforming their inmates, as the high
incidence of recidivism among prison populations shows.
1045
These are the conclusions of a House of Commons committee, which
are quoted in the supreme court decision.
The use of imprisonment as a main response to a wide variety of
offences against the law is not a tenable approach in practical
terms.
Most offenders are neither violent nor dangerous. Their
behaviour is not likely to be improved by the prison experience.
In addition, their growing numbers in jails and penitentiaries
entail serious problems of expense and administration, and
possibly increased future risks to society.
Moreover, modern technology may now permit the monitoring in the
community of some offenders who previously might have been
incarcerated for incapacitation or denunciation purposes.
Alternatives to imprisonment and intermediate sanctions,
therefore, are increasingly viewed as necessary developments.
The committee proposed that alternative forms of sentencing
should be considered for those offenders who did not endanger
the safety of others. It was put in this way, at pages 50 and 54
of the report:
One of the primary foci of such alternatives must be on
techniques which contribute to offenders accepting
responsibility for their criminal conduct and, through their
subsequent behaviour, demonstrating efforts to restore the
victim to the position he or she was in prior to the offence
and/or providing a meaningful apology.
Except where to do so would place the community at undue risk,
the “correction” of the offender should take place in the
community and imprisonment should be used with restraint.
I now go back to the decision by the Supreme Court of Canada,
which concluded thus:
Thus, it may be seen that although imprisonment is intended to
serve the traditional sentencing goals of separation,
deterrence, denunciation, and rehabilitation, there is
widespread consensus that imprisonment has not been successful
in achieving some of these goals.
Overincarceration is a
long-standing problem that has been many times publicly
acknowledged but never addressed in a systematic manner by
Parliament.
As we have seen, the Supreme Court of Canada, superior court
justices in certain provinces and parliamentary committees have
studied this issue over the last 30 years. Recently, in the
Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, which includes
the Department of Justice and the Solicitor General of Canada,
everyone agreed that putting people in jail is not the solution.
We have to find other ways of dealing with the problem.
The minister had the opportunity to show us that she had learned
something from these 30 years of study, that she had
understood the direction suggested by the Supreme Court of
Canada in its recent judgement. She had the opportunity to show
that her interpretation of that supreme court judgment led
toward something other than a life sentence for someone who has
committed a crime.
However, we will have to wait for another bill, because it is
not the case in this one.
I know justices who must be extremely disappointed in what they
are hearing in this debate today. How can the minister seriously
claim that a life sentence will have a deterrent effect on
Canadians?
If she does not want to listen to the point of view the Bloc
Quebecois, she should at least heed what the justices of the
Supreme Court of Canada had to say.
I will repeat what the supreme court said about the
effectiveness of incarceration. It is very important for members
opposite to understand this. The supreme court justices said
that incarceration was harsh and ineffective. In 1998, the
members of the justice committee repeated that incarceration had
no deterrent effect on the behaviour of offenders.
What is obvious to the whole legal community does not seem
obvious to the justice minister. Where does the minister get the
idea that imposing harsher jail sentences will affect the crime
rate?
1050
The Minister of Justice may not appreciate what the
Supreme Court had to say and I quote “This record of
incarceration rates obviously cannot instil a sense of pride”.
Some may argue that the bill before the House is going to
bolster Canada's image. Does the minister appreciate the fact
that Canada will be known as one of the highest ranking
developed countries in terms of the incarceration rate?
If the minister takes pride in such things, then I understand
why she introduced Bill C-18, because it will only push Canada
higher on that scale. Maybe our goal is to rank higher than the
United States.
Do we want to americanize our justice system? I do not think so;
I really do not think that is our goal.
It comes as no surprise that the minister does not feel she has
to follow through on the representations we regularly make to
her in the House. The government always does as it pleases,
without taking into account the views of the members of this
House, and that is nothing new. However, it is unfortunate and
even troubling to see that the minister and her government have
chosen to ignore the advice of their own court of justice.
The government has no qualms about referring matters to the
Supreme Court of Canada in order to put Quebec in its place and
to prevent from achieving its goal democratically.
It is all fine and good to listen to the supreme court in such
instances, but perhaps the Department of Justice and the
government should listen to and read the supreme court decisions
on other cases than those referred to it in order to bring
Quebec to heel and to put it in its place.
Again I invite the minister to read the latest decisions on
imprisonment handed down by the supreme court. I would hope that
this will convince her to backtrack on Bill C-18.
Not only has the minister not taken good note of the advice of
her magistrates, but she is now overdoing it. She has introduced
a bill that will certainly not result in a reduction of the
incarceration rate in Canada.
If the minister could demonstrate that increasing prison terms
would help decrease the number of deaths caused by impaired
driving, then we could view the increase of inmate population as
a necessary evil.
Yet the minister is just not able to do that, because it simply
cannot be done. Many studies have already found a total absence
of causal link between longer prison terms and a lower crime
rate.
Moreover, we must not forget to consider the adverse effects of
an unwarranted increase in the inmate population.
In this regard, let us recall the supreme court decision in the
Gladue case, which said the increasing number of offenders in
jails is causing severe cost and administration problems and may
increase the threat these offenders might pose to society later
on.
This is the problem that parliamentarians are too often
confronted with: the excessive and systematic use of jail
sentences. Not only is this excessive use of jail sentences
unwarranted in the general framework of sentencing policies, but
it is not suited to the nature of the specific offence we are
dealing with today.
Indeed, data compiled by the Canadian centre for justice
statistics show that the number of deaths caused by impaired
driving has not increased in Canada.
On the contrary, the numbers for 1998 are the lowest since 1989.
The offence of impaired driving causing death is not rising
sharply, as the minister opposite wants us to believe for
political motives.
Although this statistical fact does not allow us to claim
victory, it deserves some consideration during the examination
of a bill that implies that the number of offences of impaired
driving causing death is greatly increasing.
Indeed, we were entitled to expect that such an extension of the
sentence was reflected in the statistics on this offence. As we
cannot justify this hard line approach based on its effect on
crime, we might have wanted to deal with a problem that was
really on the rise. But this is not the case.
There is another factor that deserves our attention in the
debate on Bill C-18, and it is how the courts operate. And this
is very important.
1055
A dearth of legislative resources available to the courts might
perhaps have justified increased sentences. But, the statistics
show that the courts have never handed down a jail sentence of
more than 10 years for the offence of impaired driving causing
death.
The courts, which are the best placed to evaluate the
circumstances of each offence committed, have never seen fit to
impose the maximum sentence now available in the Criminal Code,
which is 14 years. The question then arises as to what real
effect adopting the sentence of life imprisonment would have on
the practice of our courts.
As well, imposing life imprisonment for impaired driving might
result in some ridiculous situations. For instance, a drunk
driver who was clearly negligent could receive a stiffer
sentence than a hired assassin who deliberately set out to kill
someone and who receives a reduced sentence for being an
informer. Consideration should also be given to certain
sentencing statistics having to do with other offences similar
to the offence of impaired driving causing death.
In the Criminal Code, impaired driving causing death carries a
life sentence of 14 years. Since 1985, the average sentence
handed down by Canadian appeal courts for this type of offence
is 19 months.
How can the minister justify a shorter sentence for someone who
cold-bloodedly kills someone while driving recklessly than for
someone driving under the influence of alcohol?
Let us not forget that incarceration is a last resort.
Mr. Speaker, will I have time to complete my speech?
The Speaker: Yes, indeed.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: I will therefore resume after question
period. I still have much left to say.
The Speaker: The hon. member still has twelve and a half minutes
remaining. He will have plenty of time to continue his speech.
As it is now almost 11 o'clock, we will proceed to
Statements by Members.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[Translation]
VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau (Anjou—Rivière-des-Prairies, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, next Monday is the national day of remembrance and
action on violence against women. This is not just an occasion
for reflecting on the past; it is also one for looking ahead to
the future.
Canada holds the enviable title of the best country in the world
to live in, but we know that some people here are living better
than others. As a rule, for example, we know that the women of
this country are economically and socially disadvantaged and
that some groups of women are particularly vulnerable to
discrimination: older women, young women, disabled women,
aboriginal women, immigrant women.
Violence against women is the most extreme form of
discrimination, for this is a violation of their basic rights.
Violence has enormous economic and social costs to the
individual, their families and the community as a whole.
If we want to see Canada remain the best country in the world,
we must renew our commitment to—
The Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member.
The hon. member for Dauphin—Swan River.
* * *
[English]
VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
on Monday, December 6, we will mark the 10th anniversary of one
of the most unfortunate events in Canadian history. Marc
Lepine's malicious act gunning down 14 young women in Montreal
will never be forgotten.
Although the Montreal massacre was the height of violence
against women, it is important to remember that women live daily
with the threat of violence and deliberate acts of violence.
That is why education and ongoing initiatives to curb these
attitudes must continue. Vigils are being held across the
country on Monday. In my home riding of Dauphin—Swan River the
Parkland Status of Women has led the way on action to combat
violence against women.
Several events will take place across Canada, including here in
Ottawa. The third annual candlelight vigil across the Internet
will also help to share thoughts and feelings surrounding the
entire issue.
We must all think and act on ways to end violence against women
as the dawn of the year 2000 and a new century approaches.
* * *
PARLIAMENT HILL
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, in past years the beautiful display of colourful lights
that illuminates Parliament Hill were unfortunately turned off on
January 3 before many Orthodox Christian communities have a
chance to celebrate Christmas.
1100
I am delighted that when the lights on Parliament Hill and
across Canada were illuminated last night they will remain on
until January 8, 2000 and every year thereafter.
Many thanks to the Speaker for his co-operation in response to
my initiative last year to have the lights remain on. The
recognition of Canada's multicultural heritage that this
extension symbolizes will be greatly appreciated by millions of
Canadians who celebrate Christmas after December 25.
Mr. Speaker, merry Christmas and a happy new year.
* * *
PHILIPPINES
Mr. Rey D. Pagtakhan (Winnipeg North—St. Paul, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, 50 years ago tomorrow, Canada opened its first consulate
office in the Philippines, starting the bond of goodwill that has
since grown to full diplomatic relations; a bond that has seen
Canada's involvement in the Philippines and the immigration of
Filipinos to Canada, contributing to the well-being and fabric of
the two nations.
As an offspring of this relationship, I am at once filled with
pride and humility. Pride with gratitude, because Canada has
given me the opportunity to pursue my medical career and raise my
family on her nurturing soil, and now to serve fellow Canadians
as a member of parliament. Humility, because I know I could not
have done it alone for I will continue to owe part of myself to
my roots.
I share the joy I feel as I stand in the House today and note
the 50th anniversary of enduring relations between the country of
my birth and the country that adopted me as a son.
Mabuhay. Vive le Canada et les Philippines.
* * *
INTERNATIONAL DAY OF DISABLED PERSONS
Mr. Ian Murray (Lanark—Carleton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
today marks the seventh anniversary of the United Nations
International Day of Disabled Persons. This day provides an
opportunity to recognize the many accomplishments of Canadians
with disabilities and to reflect on the contributions they make
to society every day.
In 1998, the Prime Minister accepted the Franklin Delano
Roosevelt International Disability Award in recognition of the
Government of Canada's efforts toward enabling people with
disabilities to achieve equality.
To mark this day, various federal departments have formed
partnerships with agencies and representatives of people with
disabilities. Today's celebration at the headquarters of the
Regional Municipality of Ottawa-Carleton includes the
presentation of several community awards and features displays to
increase public awareness of programs and assistance available to
people with disabilities.
I encourage all hon. members to support persons with
disabilities as the various levels of government work with the
private sector to encourage equality in the workplace and in
society.
* * *
INTERNATIONAL DAY OF DISABLED PERSONS
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
today is the last International Day of Disabled Persons for the
20th century.
According to statistics, more than half a billion people in the
world are disabled as a result of mental, physical or sensory
impairments. Today is the day to recognize the contribution that
those with disabilities have made to our society and the dignity
and value of each and every person.
We have seen the incredible spirit and character of those in the
Special Olympics, and they can be proud of their example to us.
People like Terry Fox and Rick Hansen have been an inspiration
to millions, but we must also not forget all those with
disabilities who strengthen the meaning of human life and make
our country a better place to live.
Today, I and my colleagues salute our friends, families,
neighbours and co-workers with disabilities and we thank them for
the joy and inspiration they bring to the lives of us all.
* * *
[Translation]
INTERNATIONAL DAY OF DISABLED PERSONS
Mr. Maurice Dumas (Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
today is the International Day of Disabled Persons.
With the year 2000 mere weeks away, we are forced to admit that
we are still very far from giving anything more than lip service
to their right to a full-fledged role as citizens.
In Quebec, it is estimated that close to one million persons are
living with a handicap, and there are close to half a million in
the workforce. Of those, many would like very much to be
employed.
A 1996 study pointed out that the incomes of the disabled could
be raised by academic upgrading, skills training and access to
certain categories of employment.
The society in which we live can no longer turn a blind eye to
this situation. Given the indecently large budget surpluses of
the federal government and the crying needs of the disabled, how
could we not be willing to give concrete recognition to their
right to work, their right to independence and respect?
* * *
[English]
LANDMINES
Mr. Andrew Telegdi (Kitchener—Waterloo, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, two years ago, Ottawa hosted a conference whereby over
120 countries agreed to ban anti-personnel landmines. Those
hidden killers that maimed or killed over 20,000 women, men and
especially children each year are now being destroyed throughout
the world.
Our Minister of Foreign Affairs led the world to this goal.
Today he is honouring the creation of the Canadian Landmines
Foundation whereby individual Canadians can contribute to the
cause of ending hidden killers.
When I left Hungary as a child, I walked through those killing
fields. Let other children today forever lose those fears that I
felt that night.
* * *
1105
FREEDOM OF SPEECH
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
three journalists arrested and carried away in a paddy wagon for
photographing a peaceful protest; a grandmother handcuffed and
hauled off by the police for staging a silent, solitary vigil; a
peaceful citizen arrested for displaying a sign quoting from the
UN charter on children's rights.
Where did all these gross violations of freedom of speech occur?
In China? In Cuba? No, right here in Canada. What do they
have in common? They were all perpetrated on Canadians speaking
out for their belief in the sanctity of human life.
A variety of injunctions and laws have sprung up across Canada
prohibiting Canadians who oppose abortion on demand from expressing
that view. Consequently, attacks on their right to peacefully
speak have become widespread, from citizens arrested for
displaying signs in Sturgeon Falls to students attacked for
handing out pro-life literature at the campus of UBC last week.
John Stuart Mill told us that if the right to freedom of speech
exists for one person, it exists for all and that unpopular
opinions much be protected as much as popular ones. It is time
for society to consistently defend freedom of speech.
* * *
THE GREAT LAKES
Mr. Brent St. Denis (Algoma—Manitoulin, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, much of my riding borders on the beautiful Great Lakes
of Huron and Superior, world famous, as hon.
members will know. Many of my constituents enjoy sport fishing,
commercial fishing, swimming and recreational boating in these
waters. We are lucky to have this resource in our midst.
However, some of my constituents have expressed concern about
the possible damage bulk water removal would cause the
environment should it be allowed.
Our government has acted to address these concerns. Very
recently the foreign affairs minister introduced amendments to
the International Boundary Waters Treaty Act to prohibit bulk
exports of water from Canadian boundary waters, including the
Great Lakes.
I am pleased to see that our government is committed to ensuring
that our freshwater resources, especially the Great Lakes, are
there for future generations.
* * *
[Translation]
REPUBLIC OF PALAU
Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, on November
9, 1993, in their eighth referendum, the people of the Palau
Islands, a former U.S. protectorate, chose sovereignty by
majority vote.
The question put to the Palau people was as follows: “Do you
approve of free association as proposed by the free association
pact?”
On the ballot, along with the question was the information that
the majority required was 50% plus one.
On October 1, 1994, the pact of free association was signed with
the United States, and, on December 15 of the same year, the
Republic of Palau joined the United Nations.
The Prime Minister and his acolyte in intergovernmental affairs,
rather than deny the commitments they made in 1995 and propose
positions that are undemocratic, should realize that sovereignty
partnership is the way to the future for Quebec and Canada, and
the threat to twist the principle of voter equality will simply
damage Canada's reputation abroad.
* * *
JOB CREATION
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
this morning, spectacular economic news was revealed by
Statistics Canada on the country's job situation.
The unemployment rate has dropped by .3% to 6.9% nationally, the
lowest rate in 18 years.
What is more, over half of the new jobs created are in Quebec.
The strong growth in employment has resulted in a drop in the
unemployment rate to 8.4% there, the lowest level in Quebec
since April 1976.
Finally, climate of business in the private sector seems even
better, since the number of employees increased by 42,000 in
business in November.
Such encouraging results lead me to ask a clear question: Should
Quebec separate with such good results? Certainly not.
* * *
[English]
RACISM
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, racism
is an odious and infectious disease which continues to thrive in
our world. Unfortunately, we see racism here in Canada, even in
places where we would least expect it.
The United Nations has recognized the urgency of eliminating
racial discrimination with its convention for the elimination
of racial discrimination. This convention has received the
support of many countries, including Canada. However, while other
countries supply annual reports providing information on actions
taken against racism, the Government of Canada has failed to make
submissions to the United Nations for the past two years. Just
what is this government hiding?
I call on the Liberal government to file a report for Canada
before the end of 1999 outlining initiatives to combat racism,
but more than that, to go beyond filing a report and take real
action to fight racism in our communities. Let us enter the new
millennium with something to show on fighting racism in Canada.
* * *
EMPLOYMENT
Mr. Tony Ianno (Trinity—Spadina, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it
gives me great pleasure to stand here today and state that the
unemployment rate is the lowest since August 1981.
From a high in 1993 before we took office at 11.6%, to today at a
rate of 6.9%, a decrease of approximately 4.7% in six years. In
1993, 13 million Canadians were working. Today close to 1.9
million more Canadians have joined the workforce, bringing the
total to 14.9 million.
1110
Our Liberal government has achieved this through a balanced
approach. We put a strategic plan in place, working with many
sectors of our economy to ensure that we put jobs and Canadians
first. We will continue to help Canadians achieve a higher
standard of living through the dignity of work, while always
trying to ensure that no one is left behind.
* * *
[Translation]
SMALL BUSINESS IN PORT-CARTIER
Mr. Ghislain Fournier (Manicouagan, BQ): Mr. Speaker, every
entrepreneur and business owner will tell you that being a
businessperson is not always easy.
One must juggle many things, and this on a daily basis. However,
when our work is publicly recognized, it is the best present and
reward that one could think of. This is what happened to seven
businesses in my riding, which all won awards at Port-Cartier's
business of the year gala.
Congratulations to Boutique Marie-Fleur, Ébénisterie
Concept-Plus, Auberge Étoile du Nord, FMS Usitech and Clinique
Physio-massage. All these businesses won awards in various
categories.
Congratulations also to Boucherie Margil for its 20 years of
existence and to Clinique Physio Massage Santé et Forme, which
won the public's award for the quality of its products, services
and hospitality.
* * *
[English]
FIREARMS ACQUISITION CERTIFICATE
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, a South
Shore constituent, who volunteers for senior's literacy, recently
wrote to me concerning a police record check. He understands
this process is meant to filter out unsuitable applicants but he
resents the administrative bureaucracy.
After hand delivering his request to the local RCMP for a police
record check, he realized he did not have his birth certificate
but he did have a current Firearms Acquisition Certificate which
has a scanned photo and a birth date on it. However, this card
is not accepted by the RCMP to do a police check.
In order to obtain his FAC, he is required to submit his birth
certificate so that a police and background check could be
carried out as a prerequisite to its issuance. Logic would
dictate in the circumstances described that the Firearms
Acquisition Certificate is a verification of one's birth. Surely
even this government could figure that out.
* * *
[Translation]
HANUKKAH
Mr. Jacques Saada (Brossard—La Prairie, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, today
is the first day of the Jewish festival of lights called
Hanukkah.
It is a great celebration for the Jewish community, because
today millions of Jewish people will remember the injustices
done to them not so long ago.
It is especially important to point out the great sense of
solidarity of a people that was able to turn the page in order
to live and set down roots in a country as open and welcoming as
Canada.
[English]
This festival has a rich tradition and history of its own.
Observed by millions of Jews around the globe, it commemorates
the victory of faith over tyranny.
[Translation]
I therefore invite the hon. members to join in the celebrations
of this community, my community, whose courage and perseverance
are an integral part of its values.
* * *
TEMPSDEM DANCE COMPANY
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I rise today
to draw attention to the considerable accomplishments of the
Acadian dance company Tempsdem, which has developed a worldwide
reputation in recent years.
As ambassadors of Acadian culture, they touch us deeply with
their imaginative choreography and remarkable talent. In 1998
they showcased Acadian culture in Ottawa on Canada Day. Now
they are headed to Nice for its Carnaval, where they will
proudly represent Canada and Acadie.
The high calibre of their performances reflects the long hours
of practice that lie behind them. I congratulate the members of
the dance company, their parents and the organizers. You are
the pride of the Acadian peninsula.
* * *
[English]
WORLD HOCKEY CHALLENGE
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I am thrilled to inform the House that Pictou
county, in another sporting triumph, will be welcoming the world
to our community in January 2001 when it hosts the under 17 World
Hockey Challenge.
This tournament brings together the best 16 year old hockey
players in the world, many of whom will go on to star in the NHL.
Joe Sakic, Pierre Turgeon, Mike Recci and Wade Redden, to name a
few, are all former participants of the tournament.
1115
The talents of these young men will be showcased at the New
Glasgow stadium, which in 1998 hosted the Air Canada Cup and this
summer raised to the roof the sweater of Stanley Cup champion
John Sim.
They will be participating in the Under 17 World Hockey
Challenge and will be surfacing again representing their country
at the world junior championships and, quite possibly, the
Olympic Games.
My congratulations are extended to those who have worked so
diligently to bring this winning bid in the first ever world
hockey championship to be hosted by the province of Nova Scotia.
As any Nova Scotian will tell us, this province is no stranger to
hosting these types of tournaments.
On behalf of the PC Party, I extend our support and
encouragement to all participating teams.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
NATIONAL UNITY
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, yesterday
the official opposition presented a clear unity plan for
everybody to see. On one side we have issues that will improve
the federation and on the other side clear rules on the issue of
secession.
Why, after the government has been in power for six year, is
there not more than one clear unity plan on the table for Canada?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we have a clear unity plan. Its good results are shown
by the fact that the unemployment rate is lower than at any time
in the past 20 years.
Our plan is based on balanced budgets, low interest rates, low
inflation, lower taxes, strategic investments and a strong social
safety net.
We have a plan. It is working.
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, our unity
plan is focused on fixing the way the federation works, working
on the democratic processes, working on the way this parliament
works and fixing things like the supreme court.
Why, after the government has been in power for six years, is
there only one clear plan A on unity in this country?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we have a clear plan A. It is exemplified by the
evidence of the lowest unemployment rate in 20 years, and
especially lower unemployment in Quebec.
The Reform Party is whining, but Liberals are working in the
interests of Quebecers and all Canadians and we will keep doing
that to maintain the unity of our wonderful country.
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, our
unemployment rate is down in spite of the policies of the
government.
Our plan has a strong position on the issue of secession. If in
fact a province decides to leave the country there needs to be a
two-pronged question, for surely if Canada's borders are
divisible, so are a province's borders divisible.
Why, after six years in government, is there only one clear
position on secession in this country?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I recall the clear position of the Reform Party when it
had those shocking ads with the Xs across the faces of Quebecers,
saying that they were not supposed to be ministers. Now
Reformers have the nerve to talk about a better plan for Canada.
It is to laugh. Mr. Speaker, it is to laugh.
* * *
FUNDRAISERS
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the Reform Party is the only party that has had a plan in place
for five years.
On another topic, the chairman of the National Battlefields
Commission spent $1,700 of taxpayers' money at Liberal Party
fundraisers. Mr. Juneau claimed he was actually saving
taxpayers' money because it would be cheaper for him to attend
the fundraiser to talk to Liberal cabinet ministers than to fly
to Ottawa.
In March the government issued a policy directive to prevent
this kind of thing from happening. Why has the Liberal
government broken its promise and allowed this kind of thing to
happen?
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the exact opposite is the
reality.
The hon. member knows that on March 5 I issued a statement on
behalf of the government. On March 19 we put the rules in place.
The government acted right away on this issue.
I would remind the House that when the Reform Party talked about
crown corporations donating to the Liberal Party in March, it had
received some of those contributions itself.
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, there we go. The Liberals are trying to deflect their
own record once again rather than taking responsibility for their
actions.
The policy directive that the minister talks about has forbidden
agencies and boards from donating to political parties. How can
the government possibly justify spending taxpayers' dollars on
Liberal Party fundraisers?
1120
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, again the hon. member is
factually incorrect. The funds were given back. The hon. member
knows that the individual paid for it himself. I just hope that
the Reform Party has itself reimbursed funds that it may have
received from contributions it was not entitled to receive.
* * *
[Translation]
REFERENDUMS
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, according
to this morning's Globe and Mail, the government's real
objective is to introduce legislation that will justify in
advance its refusal to negotiate, regardless of the results of
any future referendum in Quebec.
Will the government confirm that its bill has but one purpose:
to keep Quebec in Canada forever, regardless of the
irreproachable democratic process Quebec has adopted to decide
its future?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
think I should quote what the Prime Minister said yesterday. He
said: “Mr. Speaker, the government intends to introduce an
initiative in the House of Commons, and it is the House of
Commons that will reach a decision. All members will have the
opportunity to speak out”.
I suggest that the hon. member wait for the Prime Minister's
initiative.
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, we
understand that this government has already made up its mind
that Quebec will never leave Canada.
I remind the House, however, of something Robert Bourassa said
when he was premier: “Canada must understand very clearly that,
whatever is said and done, Quebec is and always will be a
distinct and free society, able to assume responsibility for its
own destiny and development”.
Will the government promise that its bill will respect the rules
of democracy that must prevail in any modern society?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this
government introduced a bill to confirm that Quebec was a
distinct society and the Bloc Quebecois voted against—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Some hon. members: That was not a bill.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Liar.
Hon. Herb Gray: Raising this issue shows a lack of credibility.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Liar. It was not even a bill.
The Speaker: Order, please.
The hon. member for
Berthier—Montcalm used the word “liar”. I would like him to
withdraw that word immediately, please.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Mr. Speaker, I will withdraw that word
if the member gives a—
The Speaker: Order, please.
I simply ask that the hon. member withdraw that word, and we
will leave it at that.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: I will withdraw that word, Mr. Speaker.
* * *
CANADA ELECTIONS ACT
Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Mr. Speaker, on
March 5, 1999, following a question by the Bloc Quebecois, the
government leader in the House of Commons was reported in Le
Devoir of March 6 as saying “The government or government
agencies should not give money to political parties”.
If the minister really wanted to prohibit government funding of
political parties, why did he not include this prohibition in
Bill C-2?
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, a directive to prevent this sort of
thing was issued by the Treasury Board. This is precisely what
the Treasury Board did on March 19.
Bill C-2 has not yet even been passed by the House of Commons at
final reading, although it likely will be, I hope, in the next
few days.
Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
in the same paper, the minister said he intended to include a
ban in this area “to make doubly sure that there will be no more
gifts of this sort”.
Why today is the minister content with an empty order preventing
only organizations other than Crown corporations from
contributing to election campaigns, unless it is because the
order has limited scope, may change and gives parliamentarians
no control?
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, what the hon. member has said is
incorrect. What she has said does not reflect reality.
The ban by Treasury Board has been established. A subsequent
order has been adopted and published in the Canada Gazette. The
member knows that as well.
The prohibitions exist, and the statements by the political
parties are all made public at the end of the year. It is all
transparent at every level.
* * *
1125
[English]
TRADE
Ms. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker, U.S.
President Clinton is pushing for enforceable core labour
standards at the World Trade Organization. Core labour standards
are the most basic rights: the right of workers to organize, no
slave labour, no child labour. The Americans support core labour
standards in trade agreements but Canada opposes them.
The trade minister even said that the American move calls for
damage control. Why has the trade minister become the new poster
boy for sweatshop labour?
Mr. Bob Speller (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for
International Trade, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member likes
to quote President Clinton. Let me also quote him. He said “We
know that countries which have opened their economies to the
world have also opened the doors to opportunity and hope for
their own people. Where barriers have fallen, by and large,
living standards have risen and democratic institutions have
become stronger”.
The hon. member should know that the Canadian government
supports core labour standards. The Canadian government at every
opportunity at the ILO stands very forcibly on this issue. The
fair rules of the WTO are good for Canadian jobs, good for
Canadian labour and are certainly good for the Canadian economy.
Ms. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker, nobody
contests that trade with different countries is good, but we also
know that labour standards are good as well and they have to be
enforceable. Canada used to fight for social justice. Now we
lag behind the Americans. The member has to quote President
Clinton because he cannot quote this government.
I ask the Minister of Foreign Affairs, why is Canada's trade
minister choosing to fight for sweatshop owners instead of
fighting for children and adults who are trying to survive in the
global economy?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is distorting the facts and
misleading the Canadian public. The fact of the matter is that
Canada has taken the lead at the ILO to implement a protocol to
protect against abusive labour and to protect child labour. We
have taken to trade forums the need to bring the ILO and the WTO
together in a co-operative way to share those issues. Canada was
taking a leadership position long before President Clinton ever
thought about it.
The Speaker: I would ask hon. members to stay away from
the word misleading.
* * *
AIRLINE INDUSTRY
Mr. Charlie Power (St. John's West, PC): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Transport.
Today there is a transportation crisis in Atlantic Canada and
Quebec. On August 13 the Minister of Transport said there was a
crisis in the airline industry. The direct and immediate result
of the minister's comments was the demise of InterCanadian. Its
bookings quickly dropped by over 30%.
Today there are over 700 employees who will not be paid and
there are thousands of Atlantic Canadians who are having
difficulty making travel plans. The situation will only get
worse as we approach the Christmas season.
Will the minister tell us what he proposes to do to end this
Atlantic Canada transportation crisis?
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform the
member and the House that the Government of Canada is monitoring
closely the situation with InterCanadian. We are aware that the
company is making its best efforts to come to an arrangement with
its major creditors that would allow services to restart in the
next few days. We know the company is keeping its employees and
its representatives informed on these efforts. We can understand
the effect that the uncertainty of the situation may be having on
InterCanadian employees and their families, and we hope there
will be a resolution to the problem as quickly as possible.
Mr. Charlie Power (St. John's West, PC): Mr. Speaker,
that answer is simply not acceptable either to the travelling
public or the employees of InterCanadian.
The minister was prepared to get involved in a multimillion
dollar foreign takeover of Air Canada. The minister declared a
national emergency and suspended the Competition Act. Now that
there is a real national transportation crisis, created by the
government and the minister, will the minister show the same
level of concern and involvement? Will he get involved to save
the 900 jobs at InterCanadian and give the people of Atlantic
Canada reasonable travel services?
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, first I would like to clarify
one of the positions that the hon. member has taken, that is,
that the government has interfered and the minister has taken an
active role. We are talking about private concerns, private
business, and the minister has constantly informed the House that
he is at arm's length from this whole process and operation.
* * *
1130
TAXATION
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is a
tribute to the ingenuity of Canadian businesses that in spite of
the government's record tax hikes they have managed to create
jobs. Most of those jobs have come from Ontario and Alberta
which are stimulating growth with tax cuts. One hundred thousand
Canadians are off the unemployment lists because they have found
jobs in the United States.
Why does the government not give Canadians a tax break so that
we can get closer to the 4% unemployment rate south of the
border?
Mr. Roy Cullen (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon.
member for the compliment about the unemployment rate and the
creation of jobs.
There were 16,000 new jobs created in British Columbia in the
month of November and this is the lowest unemployment rate in a
generation. The government is continuing to cut taxes. A family
of four with an income of $50,000 has had their federal tax bill
cut by 16% in the last two or three budgets.
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
there are no congratulations due to the government. The
congratulations and the celebrations should be for Canadians and
Canadian businesses which have managed to prosper despite the
government's policies. They have managed to prosper despite the
government's high tax regime, one of the highest in the
industrial world.
What might Canada achieve? We might achieve something like the
United States with 4.1% unemployment. How could we do that? We
could listen to what some of the CEOs of Canadian major companies
are saying. The CEOs of CN Rail, Nortel and the Chamber of
Commerce say cut taxes. Why will the government not listen to
these prominent Canadians and take action?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member is pushing on an open door. We began
cutting taxes years ago.
First we had targeted tax reductions for the disabled and
students and in the last two budgets we had general tax
reductions for all Canadians. These tax reductions are worth
billions of dollars. We said in the throne speech and in the
finance minister's fiscal update that we are going to move to
broad based, multistage, multiyear tax reductions. We have begun
the move to tax reductions. We are going to continue. As a
result the good effects on the Canadian economy are going to
continue in spite of the whining. Canadians—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Mercier.
* * *
[Translation]
CHECHNYA
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, last Saturday,
the Managing Director of the IMF said that financial assistance
to Russia could be put on hold if that country continued its war
with Chechnya.
This comes close on the heels of comments by Russia's former
minister of finance, who estimated the cost of the war in
Chechnya at $600 million U.S. so far.
Knowing that this IMF loan is being used indirectly to pay for
the war in Chechnya, will the Minister of Foreign Affairs
undertake to bring pressure to bear on the IMF to withhold the
payments promised Russia until there are signs of a negotiated
peace?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, next week, there will be a meeting of the G-8
ministers of foreign affairs.
There will certainly be serious discussions with respect to
Chechnya at that time. I prefer to work with the other
countries, particularly those who are strongest economically, to
determine the next step with respect to the war in Chechnya.
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the Agence
France Presse reminded us this morning that Moscow has curtly
dismissed western pressure for a political solution to the
conflict.
The minister should know, and perhaps he could respond to this,
that if he is not in favour of the war in Chechnya, he cannot
agree to finance it.
[English]
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, we have deplored very directly. The Prime Minister
raised the matter at the meetings in Turkey. I have had the
occasion to have a direct meeting with the Russian foreign
minister.
The member was not exactly accurate when she said that Russia is
spurning these efforts. In fact, Mr. Vollebaek, who is the
chairman in office for OSCE, met just this week in Russia to
determine the role of the OSCE. We are working on getting proper
access for humanitarian organizations so they can bring support
for those displaced persons inside that country.
I can tell the hon. member that we are working very actively to
make sure that civilian—
The Speaker: The hon. member for
Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan.
* * *
1135
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the Gitanyow testified before a parliamentary committee
that their hereditary lands were being given to the Nisga'a. The
Nisga'a got to vote on accepting these lands, but the Gitanyow
did not get to vote on giving them up.
This Nisga'a treaty has an impact on aboriginal and
non-aboriginals alike throughout B.C., including ranchers in the
Okanagan, fishermen on the west coast and loggers everywhere. Why
is the government refusing to allow all affected British Columbians
the vote in a province-wide referendum on this precedent setting
treaty?
Hon. Robert D. Nault (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as has been said in the
House many times before, the commitment that the government made
when we first started negotiating the Nisga'a was that we would
enter into discussions and negotiation, then it would go from
that negotiation to approval. There would be a referendum with
the Nisga'a people, then it would go to the legislature in
British Columbia, then to the House of Commons where we are now.
That is the commitment we made. We are not about to change
course as the opposition tends to do whenever it sees a poll. We
are going to continue to honour our commitments.
Mr. Philip Mayfield (Cariboo—Chilcotin, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, in a letter dated November 1, 1999 to a native woman in
British Columbia, the Secretary for State for Multiculturalism
and the Status of Women acknowledges a so-called legislative gap
in the protection of native women's property rights. Yet, the
secretary of state supports the Nisga'a treaty saying that this
gap can be addressed later by aboriginal communities.
Is it the government's position that non-native women should be
protected under the charter of rights and freedoms, but that
native women should have to fight for their rights as stated by
the Secretary of State for Multiculturalism and the Status of
Women?
Hon. Robert D. Nault (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, there they go again. The
fact remains that if these members would read the treaty that
deals with the Nisga'a, they would find that we are not dealing
with the Indian Act. We are dealing outside of the Indian Act
which allows aboriginal women to be treated the same as any woman
in British Columbia through provincial legislation. So, there we
go, the charter does apply as we have said over and over again.
I want the member to know that we do agree with him that the
Indian Act is silent on aboriginal women's rights. We have every
intention of correcting that. I will be making that announcement
for him very soon.
* * *
[Translation]
AIRLINE INDUSTRY
Mr. Michel Guimond
(Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
nearly 500 InterCanadian employees are in Ottawa at the present
time protesting the monumental fiasco in which the Minister of
Transport has plunged regional air travel since his announcement
this past August 13.
Will the minister agree to organize an emergency meeting with
all parties concerned, in order to ensure that InterCanadian
gets its flights back up and running as quickly as possible?
[English]
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform the
House that the hon. member has used just as much enthusiasm and
drive ever since the month of February at the transportation
committee to address the concerns we have about the
restructuring and competition within the airline industry. He
has attended meetings and he knows the facts. If he would now just
be objective and not only be concerned about Quebec, but take a
look at the whole process as we deal with the whole air industry
in this wonderful country called Canada.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Guimond
(Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
what an incredible answer.
Does the parliamentary secretary realize that this shutdown of
operations has left the regions of Quebec and the Maritimes
without airline service, as well as throwing 900 employees out
of work? That is irresponsible.
[English]
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that the
union and the hon. member feel they need to blame the government
for a situation that they dislike at InterCanadian.
The fact is that we do not control the private sector.
InterCanadian has made a business decision, in fact, a whole
series of business decisions which led to the suspension of
service in a particular market with particular circumstances.
The union's and the member's energy would be better served in
examining all these factors from the beginning of the creation of
this InterCanadian airline company to the present time.
* * *
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Darrel Stinson (Okanagan—Shuswap, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, in 14 different instances self-government rights in the
Nisga'a treaty provide “In the event of an inconsistency or
conflict between the Nisga'a law and federal or provincial laws,
the Nisga'a law will prevail”.
1140
How can the government award the Nisga'a or anybody else the
right to make laws which are superior, not just to provincial
laws, but also superior to the laws of Canada?
Hon. Robert D. Nault (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is pretty obvious the
member did not read the treaty. I think he should read it. I do
not know which treaty the members opposite are debating. The
debate they are having must be some sort of mystical treaty.
The reality of it is those 14 areas we are talking about relate
to language, culture and custom of the Nisga'a people, nothing
really to be concerned about as it relates to Canada's
sovereignty.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
with the Nisga'a treaty the Liberals are creating the third tier
of government, based on ethnicity. By trying to amend the
constitution through the back door this weak Liberal government
is creating permanent inequality. It is disenfranchising
non-Nisga'a people. It insists on segregating our aboriginal
people with agreements based on race.
Is this the reason it is trying to shut up the people of B.C. by
not holding a referendum?
Hon. Robert D. Nault (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the party here that is at 9%
nationally does not have to give us any lessons about
representing Canadians. That is the first thing. If it was at
least a party that knew what its name was, we could have a
serious debate.
Let me make it very clear to the hon. member. We have a
position as a government as it relates to negotiation and dealing
with rights of aboriginal people. I am still waiting, as I did
yesterday in the House, for this party to tell us what its
position is as it relates to dealing with aboriginal rights that
are in the constitution under section 35.
* * *
[Translation]
ORPHAN CLAUSES
Mrs. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ): Mr. Speaker, today, the
Bloc Quebecois will debate its Bill C-212.
The purpose of this bill is to eliminate any provision in a
collective agreement that discriminates against newcomers on the
labour market, and to ensure that employees hired after a
specified date enjoy the same benefits, wages or conditions of
employment as the other employees.
My question is for the Minister of Labour. What concrete
measures does she intend to take to prohibit discriminatory
orphan clauses, and when will she do it?
Hon. Claudette Bradshaw (Minister of Labour, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
all collective agreements are put together by management and the
union. Therefore, it is up to them to include appropriate
clauses in these agreements.
* * *
[English]
LANDMINES
Mr. John McKay (Scarborough East, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
this is the second anniversary of the signing of the land mines
treaty. People are being killed and maimed at a terrible rate
even as we sit here in question period.
Canada takes great pride in successfully concluding that treaty,
but I would ask the Minister for International Cooperation what
financial resources has Canada actually put on the table in the
execution of this treaty.
Hon. Maria Minna (Minister for International Cooperation,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, less than a year after its entry into
force the land mines treaty process has created a new
international arm against this weapon and its impact is
significant. Victims' rates are falling. The use, production
and trade of AP mines are all declining. Over 14 million
Thugfeld mines have been destroyed.
In addition, I announced a $3.4 million contribution to help
Kosovo, Colombia and regions of Africa to reduce the threats of
land mines.
* * *
FISHERIES
Mr. John Duncan (Vancouver Island North, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, yesterday RCMP and fisheries officers seized 30 tonnes
of Fraser River sockeye from a business. This is not the first
time. These fish were caught under a native food fishery
supposedly for consumption by the Sto:Lo, Musqueam and Tsawwassen
band members, this in a year when there was no commercial fishery
on the Fraser for conservation reasons.
Is the minister going to take control of the west coast fishery,
or wait until we no longer have a fishery?
Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal (Minister of Fisheries and
Oceans, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, illegal fishing is a serious
problem. We at fisheries are investigating. This shows us the
example where fisheries officers, with the RCMP, are
investigating and, if they have to be, charges will be laid
against anybody who is fishing illegally.
1145
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
due to gross mismanagement DFO has destroyed the Atlantic cod
fishery and, according to the auditor general, is about to do the
same with Pacific salmon.
The auditor general states that the Pacific salmon fishery is in
trouble and the sustainability of the fishery is at risk. He
warns that the Pacific salmon fishery may face a five year
closure to allow stocks to recover.
When will the fisheries minister do as the auditor general
suggests and actually manage the west coast fishery?
Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal (Minister of Fisheries and
Oceans, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, that is not what the auditor
general said. Let me read to the hon. member what he said, that
the department had already taken the first steps to address the
challenges it faces. It has affirmed conservation as its primary
objective to protect existing salmon stocks. The hon. member
knows that is what the auditor general said. Unfortunately it is
very convenient for him to leave that out.
The auditor general also said we had to reduce capacity, and
that is exactly what we are doing in the buyback licence. He
said as well that we had to work together with the provinces, and
that is what we are doing as well. We are already taking the
necessary steps to make sure that we have a sustainable fishery
on the west coast.
* * *
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
regarding alternative service delivery the auditor general said
that the Department of National Defence had real problems
identifying baseline costs for projects, CFB Halifax being a case
in point.
The report also clearly showed that in-house bids met all the
criteria of the good business case while outside industry bids
fell short of the requirements.
Would the minister ensure that an in-house bid would be welcomed
and considered for supply chain projects?
[Translation]
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the department is really
committed to this program, which helps us do our job much more
effectively by freeing up resources that can best serve and
support our operational capacity.
To improve the program, we followed up on all the
recommendations made by the auditor general.
[English]
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
auditor general said projected savings from alternative service
delivery may have been overstated.
The first supply chain business case projected a 15% to 30%
saving, but the second revised case projected only 4% to 14%
savings, and even that would not start to accrue for seven years,
a lifetime in business terms.
Will the minister tell the House exactly what the expected
savings will be?
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have so far saved
$68 million and we expect to increase those savings in coming
years.
* * *
HEALTH
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC): Mr. Speaker, this
week the Ontario College of Family Physicians and the Canadian
Environmental Law Association released a damning report on the
effects of pesticides on Canadian children.
Pesticides are now assessed based on adult exposure and
sensitivity to a product, ignoring the vulnerability of children
and pregnant women. In the U.S. a similar report requires its
new legislation to re-examine pesticides by looking at their
effects on children and fetuses.
We now know the draft legislation that has been ready since 1997
does not include this scientific criterion. Why is the Minister
of Finance willing to actually risk the health of Canadian
children?
[Translation]
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the issue of pesticides is currently
being reviewed, both by the Standing Committee on the
Environment and by the appropriate authorities at the Department
of Health.
The necessary amendments will be made when the time and
expertise become available.
[English]
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC): Mr. Speaker, we
heard just last week that the pest management advisory council
has seen draft legislation that has been ready since 1997. Claire
Franklin of the PMRA stated that the legislation had been sitting
there for essentially three years.
Why do we not have legislation tabled that has been ready for
three years? The minister told me last week in question period
that he was still consulting individuals, but the pest management
advisory council has not met since June. If the minister is
still consulting, who is he consulting and why will he not table
a bill?
[Translation]
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health is still
reviewing the situation and meeting with the appropriate
stakeholders. He will bring in amendment proposals in due time.
* * *
1150
[English]
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. David Pratt (Nepean—Carleton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
last year the defence committee produced a report about the
significant quality of life problems faced by Canadian forces
members, problems with pay, housing and support for families.
Could the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National
Defence explain what action has been taken to implement these
important recommendations from the defence committee report and
whether or not the Canadian forces have the resources to proceed
with the quality of life improvements?
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague
for that very important question. Last year when we brought out
the report there were 89 recommendations. We have acted on 24 of
them so far. There have been improvements in pay, housing and
welfare for veterans.
The report was extremely well received. It was almost
unanimously voted on. Four parties voted for it but one party
voted against it, the Reform Party, and it has the gall to stand
up here—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Lethbridge.
* * *
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Rick Casson (Lethbridge, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, we will
get a real question now. Despite the fact that Canada has taken
agriculture subsidies away from our farmers, the government has
failed to get any commitment from our trading partners to
eliminate their trade distorting policies.
Canadian farmers from every region of the country are under
constant threat of illegal trade actions by our closest trading
partners. Our producers need quick action by the government to
resolve these disputes.
Why does the government not use the same ruthless determination
it used when slashing support for our farmers when it is dealing
with our trading partners?
Mr. Bob Speller (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for
International Trade, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, that is somewhat
funny, coming from the Reform Party which is the only party in
the House that did not support the united position of all farm
groups across the country on a strong united front for Canada to
stand up to the European Union and for Canada to stand up to the
United States in terms of export subsidies.
In Seattle today the Minister for International Trade and the
Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food are in very important
meetings doing exactly that.
* * *
[Translation]
ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE
Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): Mr. Speaker, a few
days ago in the House of Commons, the members of all political
parties, including the party forming the government, unanimously
passed a Bloc Quebecois motion giving the Standing Committee on
Justice a mandate to study in the coming year all the ways to
fight organized crime more effectively.
In view of this, could the solicitor general promise that no
positions at the RCMP will be cut until the Standing Committee
on Justice has completed its deliberations?
Mr. Jacques Saada (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I understand this question is a
very emotional one for my colleague, and we all share this
emotion.
As regards his very specific question, I do not think it is
appropriate to impute motives to the government. The solicitor
general has not received any official document recommending
anything relating to such cuts. The government has indicated
neither intent nor decision in this regard.
The situation is clearly totally unchanged at the moment, and I
want to confirm that officially.
* * *
[English]
THE ENVIRONMENT
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, in June of this year the government was forced to
acknowledge that there had been a potentially lethal spill at the
virology lab in Winnipeg, a facility designed to handle the
world's most deadly viruses.
After understandable public outcry, the government and the
health minister promised on August 10 to set up a community
liaison committee. Today it is December 3 and there is no
committee and no community accountability. Only word is that the
government is prepared to open this facility early in the new
year.
When will the committee be struck? Will the citizens of
Winnipeg be assured by the government that level 4 operations at
the lab in Winnipeg will be put on hold until a committee has
reviewed safety protocols and made recommendations—
The Speaker: The hon. parliamentary secretary.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank our colleague from the NDP
for having raised this issue once again, and I will pass it on to
the Minister of Health without fail.
* * *
[English]
FISHERIES
Mr. Mark Muise (West Nova, PC): Mr. Speaker, paragraph 17
of the supreme court decision clearly indicates that aboriginal
treaty rights do not belong to any individual but to the
community and can only be exercised by registered persons of the
local band.
Could the minister of fisheries tell the fishermen of West Nova
what he is doing to prevent aboriginals from distant communities
from fishing in LFA 34?
1155
Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal (Minister of Fisheries and
Oceans, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member knows there
was an agreement between commercial fishermen and aboriginals.
There were some problems in terms of that agreement. Our
officials are out there speaking to the Acadia band and
consulting with fishermen.
As I said yesterday we feel that situation will be resolved. We
are very confident that it will be. Meanwhile the judgment is
pretty clear as to who the beneficiaries are of the Marshall
decision. The member should go back and read it again if he has
any questions about it.
* * *
CENSUS
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, many of
my constituents have written to my office requesting that
Statistics Canada release census information dating back to 1911.
What is the Minister of Industry planning to do to respond to
these requests?
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, this is actually a very difficult question. On the one
hand there are very legitimate interests on the part of
historians and genealogists in obtaining this information. On
the other hand the census data were obtained from Canadians on
the basis of a law that did not anticipate it ever being released
to the public.
In order to try to deal with these really conflicting,
diametrically opposed interests, I have asked a panel of experts,
chaired by Dr. Richard Van Loon, president of Carleton
University, to review the situation to see whether they can give
us a recommendation that might balance these two interests and
report back to us by the end of May of the coming year.
* * *
PRISONS
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, they
are going to have to give their questions a day earlier if they
are too tough. I now have in my possession a stack of e-mails
from prison guards in Edmonton max. They are begging to be armed
properly as escorts of dangerous high risk offenders.
At minimum they need guns, bullet proof vests and unmarked
vehicles. Because of the high degree of gang related events at
this prison, this is the least we could do and the least we could
provide to them.
Will the solicitor general and his officials stop predicting
human behaviour and truly and fully protect our guards at
Edmonton max before someone is seriously hurt or killed?
[Translation]
Mr. Jacques Saada (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, everything to do with the
operations of the corrections service, as you know, is governed
by the Corrections and Conditional Release Act.
If my colleague has recommendations, since this bill is
currently under consideration, why does he not contact his own
colleague and recommend to him that the problem be brought to
the Standing Committee on Justice, instead of trying to make a
show out of something that is of as much concern to us as to
him?
* * *
PCB CONTAMINATED SOILS
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, twice
now, Public Works and Government Services Canada has postponed a
call for tenders to decontaminate soils containing PCBs at
Dorval airport.
By its actions, it is delaying the elimination of PCBs, while
Récupère Sol, the only company in the running which is certified
by Quebec's Department of the Environment, has the necessary
expertise and is ready to proceed.
Does the Minister of the Environment think he will take action
in this case, and assume responsibility for setting the
deadlines for storage of PCBs, a responsibility that he himself
took on when the Canadian Environmental Protection Act was
passed?
[English]
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, that is a very valid question
to be presented in the House.
I would like to inform the member, as well as everyone else,
that the Ministry of Transport and other government agencies are
examining the situation and are on top of it because safety is an
extremely important factor in the country.
* * *
[Translation]
PORT OF BELLEDUNE
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the port of
Belledune is essential for the economic development of
northeastern New Brunswick. The federal government has already
written off the debts of several ports in Canada, including the
port of Saint John.
Will the government now ensure equal treatment for all ports in
Canada and write off the $43 million debt of the port of
Belledune?
[English]
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, again I inform the member that
a great number of variations regarding deals with various ports
under the Canadian Ports Authority have been established.
Much negotiation is ongoing. Some of it is just about complete.
Much of it has been completed and negotiations will continue.
* * *
SEARCH AND RESCUE
Mr. Mark Muise (West Nova, PC): Mr. Speaker, the federal
government sent a Labrador search and rescue helicopter to
Yarmouth to patrol the opening of the lobster fishery.
Unfortunately, like most of our Sea Kings, this helicopter broke
down and was unavailable to rescue four victims of a sinking
fishing vessel.
This simply highlights the need to maintain the emergency coast
guard helicopter service in Yarmouth. Will the Minister of
Fisheries and Oceans make this commitment today, yes or no?
1200
Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal (Minister of Fisheries and
Oceans, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, search and rescue is extremely
important. We take our responsibility very seriously as a
government both in coast guard and DND. We work together to
ensure that we provide expeditious service to all Canadians
whether on the east coast, the west coast or on the Great Lakes
to make sure that we provide search and rescue as quickly as
possible.
* * *
[Translation]
POINT OF ORDER
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, when
I answered a question during Oral Question Period, instead of a
bill on distinct society I should have said a motion on distinct
society passed by the House, which the Bloc Quebecois opposed
anyway. They did vote against it.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
during Oral Question Period you asked me to withdraw something I
said, which I did.
I appreciate the fact that the Deputy Prime Minister is
correcting the answer he gave me, because it is his answer that
caused me to use the word I then had to withdraw. He had mislead
the House with his answer. I recognize that he has now corrected
his answer.
The Speaker: So the matter is closed.
* * *
[English]
HOUSE OF COMMONS
The Speaker: I have the honour to lay upon the table
a report entitled “Building the Future—House of Commons
Requirements for the Parliamentary Precinct”, October 1999.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[English]
COLUMBIA RIVER TREATY
Mr. Brent St. Denis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Natural Resources, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing
Order 32(2), I have the honour to table, in both official
languages, the annual report of the Columbia River Treaty
Permanent Engineering Board to the Government of the United
States and the Government of Canada for the year ending September
30, 1997.
* * *
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have the honour to present the 13th report of the
Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding its
order of reference of Tuesday, October 19, 1999 in relation to
Bill C-2, an act respecting the election of members to the House
of Commons, repealing other acts relating to elections and making
consequential amendments to other acts.
[Translation]
The committee studied Bill C-2 and is reporting it with
amendments.
* * *
[English]
BANK ACT
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-391, an act to amend the Bank Act (definition of
infant).
He said: Mr. Speaker, the bill is to ensure compliance with the
United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
1205
CANADA SEAT BELT ACT
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-392, an act to provide that all vehicles under
federal jurisdiction must be equipped with seat belts and to
require the Minister of Transport to consult with the provinces
to maximize the use of seat belts in school buses.
He said: Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what this bill will do,
as you have said.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
CONSUMER CREDIT INFORMATION ACT
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-393, an act to require federally regulated
financial institutions, credit bureaus and federal corporations
to advise consumers before giving any information on their
financial history to a credit grantor or credit bureau and to
allow for correction of a record following an objection by a
consumer.
He said: Mr. Speaker, this bill will do just that.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
DEFICIT PREVENTION ACT
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-394, an act to prevent deficit budgets.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the bill will ensure that there is no
deficit incurred by the House or any government in the future.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
PROTECTION OF PRIVACY (SOCIAL INSURANCE NUMBERS) ACT
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-395, an act to protect personal privacy by
restricting the use of social insurance numbers.
He said: Mr. Speaker, this is also to restrict the use of the
social insurance number except by an agency or organization
authorized by law.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
INCOME TAX ACT
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-396, an act to amend the Income Tax Act (donors
to food banks).
He said: Mr. Speaker, the bill will allow somebody who makes a
contribution to a food bank to receive a tax receipt.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
PETITIONS
ADOPTION
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
am presenting today a number of petitions with thousands of names
of people who draw the attention of the House to the significant
contribution that adoptive parents make.
1210
The petitioners call on the House to recognize the contribution
and costs that are often incurred in adopting children. They are
seeking House support for a private member's bill that I put
forward, Bill C-505, that would recognize the costs to adoptive
parents and allow them a tax deductible expense.
* * *
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Ms. Carolyn Parrish (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on
behalf of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, I ask that all questions be
allowed to stand.
The Deputy Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[Translation]
CRIMINAL CODE
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-18, an
act to amend the Criminal Code (impaired driving causing death
and other matters), be read the second time and referred to a
committee.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
before oral question period, I was trying to show that Bill C-18
should not be passed because it is not in keeping with what the
justices of the supreme court and provincial superior courts,
some legal scholars and all justice committees have said in the
last few years about prison terms being useless in reducing the
crime rate.
According to the justices of the supreme court, there are way
too many prison terms handed down in Canada. Offenders are often
sent to prison when other measures could have been better for
them and, in particular, could have protected society better. I
was just beginning to give examples to show that Bill C-18 is not
consistent with the Criminal Code structure we have be using for
years.
I gave several examples, one of which I will repeat so that the
Liberals can understand that something is wrong with this bill.
Here is the example I gave. I talked about a drunk driver, who
was clearly negligent, who had decided to drive after having a
drink and who hit and killed someone. This is extremely serious.
This is a crime. However, this person could receive a stiffer
sentence than a hired assassin who deliberately set out to kill
someone. The hired assassin could receive a reduced sentence for
becoming an informer; he will often be accused of a lesser and
included offence and get off with a shorter sentence than the
drunk driver who has killed someone.
There is a principle of law called mens rea, whereby it must be
established the individual acted with the intent to kill. It is
not the case here. He did not intend to drive off while under
the influence and kill someone. I realize, however, that some
recidivists should get harsher sentences, but the Criminal Code
already provides a 14-year prison term in such cases.
The judges have already tried recidivists, individuals as they
are referred to in the lingo of lawyers, who have a criminal
record one mile long. There was one case in Canada where the
judge handed down a 10-year prison sentence for impaired driving
causing death. There is only one such case in all of Canada.
Judges therefore have the necessary leeway to hand down
sentences of up to 14 years.
The other example I gave had to do with reckless driving causing
death.
1215
The Criminal Code provides a 14-year prison term for reckless
driving if the same driver kills someone while deliberately
driving recklessly. He was not impaired, but drove recklessly.
He is not accused of impaired driving, but of reckless driving
causing death. The maximum sentence provided by the Criminal
Code is 14 years.
Having reviewed the jurisprudence concerning this section as
well as the sentences handed down for reckless driving causing
death, we find that the Canadian appeal courts imposed prison
sentences averaging 19 months for this type of offence.
How can the minister justify the fact that an offender who
killed somebody in cold blood by driving a car dangerously will
receive a lesser sentence of imprisonment than a driver who was
impaired by alcohol? I want the minister to give a logical
response to that. I want her to tell me how that makes sense.
Moreover, let us not forget that imprisonment is a last resort
solution to any delinquency problem. Again, the Supreme Court,
whom I quoted extensively in the first part of my speech, was
very clear on that subject.
I will quote once again what the justices of the supreme court
said. They said this:
In the past few decades many groups and federally appointed
committees and commissions given the responsibility of studying
various aspects of the criminal justice system have argued that
imprisonment should be used only as a last resort and/or that it
should be reserved for those convicted of only the most serious
offences.
The Minister of Justice has not demonstrated that she has
exhausted all the means available to her to deal with the issue
of impaired driving to protect the public.
Instead, she decided to choose the easy solution by proposing to
drastically increase the term of imprisonment set out in the
Criminal Code. She opted for a Reform policy when she could have
acted differently. To win a few easy votes, she decided to play
with the criminal justice system and upset its balance. This
shows a lack of courage on her part.
We must look at the whole picture. It is an extremely serious
problem. What is the main objective of any legislation on
impaired driving? To try as much as possible to make people
understand that impaired driving is a criminal offence a serious
one.
We did this last June through a series of amendments. Let us
wait and see the results before amending the Criminal Code
again.
While impaired driving is a serious offence, there are other
effective alternatives to incarceration that can minimize its
impact, including the use of alcohol-ignition interlock devices.
There are two provinces where this device is in use, Alberta and
Quebec.
At the committee stage, it was the Bloc Quebecois that sold the
idea of this device and convinced the committee members that it
had to be included in the legislation so that provinces wanting
to offer such a program could do so.
The Bloc Quebecois won its case for a first offence.
The first time an individual is arrested for impaired driving he
can, in order to reduce the period of his driving license
suspension, have his car equipped with an alcohol-ignition
interlock system.
However, in terms of prevention and education and especially in
terms of reaching the first objective, namely changing the
driving habits of drinkers, we would have liked, in the case of
a repeat offence, the driver or the repeat offender to be
compelled to have his car equipped with an ignition interlock
device.
The government took the easy way out by proposing these
amendments.
1220
I could go on all afternoon about impaired driving and the
implications of the changes the minister wants to make through
Bill C-18. I am sure whoever was in the Chair would pay as much
attention as you are now, but my time is limited.
I think I have demonstrated to everyone that the justices of the
supreme court and of superior courts, legal experts,
psychologists, chairs of parliamentary commissions and
committees who studied the issue all found that incarceration
does nothing to change bad habits and lower the crime rate.
Education and prevention as well as effective and active
measures the provinces can implement the answer.
Members also know what the Bloc Quebecois thinks of this bill. I
checked to see what reporters and columnists covering Quebec
courts thought about this issue.
In June 1999, La Presse, which surely cannot be called a
separatist newspaper, ran an article with a catchy headline “The
Bloc is blocking”.
For once, Mr. Pierre Gravel was of the opinion that we were
doing our work by creating a filibuster to stop Bill C-82 in its
tracks, because, among other things, the bill provided life
sentences for impaired driving causing death.
He agreed with us that this was absurd.
He said this about the Bloc Quebecois. “On the contrary, it is
its”—meaning the Bloc Quebecois'—“firm attitude that put a damper
on the over-zealousness of the proponents of zero
tolerance”—meaning the Liberals.
Today, there is another editorial, by Mario Roy, entitled
“Drinking and driving: let's not lose our heads”. It is clear
he is talking about the minister, because she lost her head a
long time ago.
What does Mr. Roy say in this editorial? He says that the
minister is making a mistake. He also says that, having
consulted legal experts and watched what goes on in court, he
can tell her bill makes no sense. He gives several examples. I
will read this one because it is a good one.
Those who follow court proceedings know the real purpose of the
Criminal Code provisions dealing with manslaughter.
Members opposite explained that they chose the life sentence
because the Criminal code provides for life sentences in the
case of manslaughter, and killing someone when driving under the
influence is just as serious as manslaughter.
Speaking of what those who follow court proceedings know about
what the Criminal Code provisions dealing with manslaughter
stipulate, Mr. Roy added:
The crown prosecutor and defence counsel often resort to plea
bargaining, sometimes with the approval of the jury, even in
cases of horrible, cruel and premeditated murder.
Manslaughter is a lesser and included offence as compared to
premeditated murder.
The Liberals equate an impaired driver who
hits and kills someone with a murderer who planned the crime.
The driver did not plan to kill.
Unfortunately, he had one drink too many, and what he did was
criminal, I agree, but those opposite are comparing him to a
murderer who planned his crime in advance. This journalist finds
that unacceptable, and justifiably so, especially after
consulting those who am familiar with the courts.
I was reading in Le Droit this morning that certain Quebec
lawyers are critical of the minister's approach in this matter.
Worse yet, the chief of police in Aylmer is opposed to it and
says it makes no sense. He wonders whether it will be
applicable and applied by the courts.
1225
I know that the minister, and especially the government House
leader made a deal with some of the opposition parties in June
to let the bill pass. I also know that a number of members on
the government side oppose this bill.
I know that the member for Brome—Missisquoi, a former president
of the Quebec bar association, does not support giving a life
sentence to an impaired driver who has caused death. I would
hope he will be man enough to rise and criticize the Minister of
Justice's backward approach, which, clearly, will never achieve
the objectives sought.
Stiffening the sentence and putting people in prison for life is
not going to change the habits of drinkers who get behind the
wheel at the end of an evening.
The holidays—Christmas and New Year—are coming. They should
think of their relatives, friends and colleagues at the office
party. Some of them will be driving while impaired. If they
kill someone, should we treat them as criminals? Perhaps, but
not in the same way as a hired killer.
[English]
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to rise today to speak to this subject. I know I speak
on behalf of my constituents when I stand to address the issue of
drunk driving.
I would like to begin by commending the work of one of my
constituents, Geraldine Dedrick, who is a very active member of
Mothers Against Drunk Driving for the Halifax region. Geraldine
faced the terrible tragedy of losing a son to an accident related
to drunk driving. I am honoured to stand here to support her
efforts and those of countless others who are working today so
that people tomorrow may be spared this tragedy.
The whole issue of impaired driving causing death is a very
important issue in the province of Nova Scotia. The current
president of Mothers Against Drunk Driving is Mr. Pat Dutton, who
heads the Halifax, Annapolis Valley and Digby chapters. I
commend him for his very important work in this area.
Every day people living in the riding of Halifax West face a
very real and possibly fatal threat. Every day in my riding
people are concerned about someone they know who may be drinking
and driving. I am sure it is the same throughout the province of
Nova Scotia and across Canada.
Since the criminal code was amended to deal with persons who
drink and drive, it has been estimated that 20,400 Canadians have
died at the hands of those who choose to drink and drive. At the
same time, up to 1.5 million Canadians have been injured during
the time span since these laws were enacted. The death and
casualty numbers read like those of war. The government has the
tools at hand to reduce this carnage.
I and my colleagues of the New Democratic Party support the
review and enactment of legislative measures to enhance
deterrents and to ensure that we use the tools of legislation to
do what we can to put in place laws to reduce these accidents.
When we talk about this issue, we are not talking about people
who have sacrificed their lives for our country or for any higher
ideal; we are talking about people who have had their lives or
their good health ended because someone chose to drink too much
and subsequently turned their vehicle into a terrible weapon out
of control.
Even while I am speaking, it is likely that a Canadian will lose
his or her life due to drunk driving. An average of more than
one Canadian every five minutes is injured due to drunk driving.
An average of one Canadian is killed every six hours. This is
simply obscene.
While clearly the loss of life and limb is paramount, let us not
ignore the incredible toll that this takes on our health care
system and the ripple effect on other costs to taxpayers. This
is not only an issue of death and injury, it is an issue of
responsibility in so many ways.
Clearly the responsibility lies at many levels. There is the
level of the individual. We all have individual responsibility
in this matter. I have chosen not to drink at all. I know
several others who have made this choice. I know there are many
other responsible social drinkers who would never climb into a
vehicle with anywhere near the legal blood alcohol limit.
Then there are others who are social drinkers who occasionally
make the wrong choice about drinking and driving. This wrong
choice is estimated to be responsible for a death every single
day in this country.
1230
Then there are the repeat offenders, many with serious drinking
problems who cause much of the carnage.
Then there is the responsibility of the community. More and
more communities are banding and working together to change the
laws. It is largely due to their efforts that the backwards
social philosophy of “one for the road” is increasingly
becoming a thing of the past, and we are very thankful for that.
Mothers Against Drunk Driving and many other organizations have
become very sophisticated and involved and have done much of our
homework in this particular area. It is good to have such
community-responsible citizens who are taking up their
responsibility to make sure this tragedy does not persist. This
enables us as legislators to help address the problems.
There are many small business owners who serve alcohol who are
undertaking initiatives in their businesses to curb irresponsible
drinking and to reduce the incidence of drunk driving. I commend
them for their efforts.
It is foolish to think the entire problem can be legislated
away. It is no more than criminal not to make every change we
can as parliamentarians to address the loss of life and health
through drunk driving accidents. The government should have no
fear of addressing this issue if it is concerned about the polls
because nine out of every ten Canadians believe this is a problem
for the government to address.
Almost three of every four Canadians support lowering the blood
alcohol concentration level from 0.08 to 0.05. We would not be
breaking any new ground here. Many countries are ahead of us.
Australia, Belgium, Finland, Greece, Netherlands, Norway,
Portugal and France have all lowered their legal levels to 0.05.
Some provincial governments have taken the lead on this issue.
Newfoundland has implemented a 24 hour licence suspension with a
$100 licence reinstatement charge if a person's level is over
0.05.
I am pleased to inform the House as to what Nova Scotia has done
in this area. As of the beginning of this month, new legislation
is in place that has been approved by all the parties in the
legislature in Nova Scotia. These new drinking and driving laws
taking effect include the immediate 24 hour suspension of a
driver's licence for someone pulled over with a blood alcohol
level of between 0.05 and the legal limit of 0.08. For the first
conviction there is a one year revocation of driving privileges.
A second conviction warrants a three year suspension, up from the
current two years. Three time offenders will lose their licence
for at least 10 years. A fourth time offender will never drive
again. These are very important changes under the motor vehicle
act of Nova Scotia. They underscore the significance of the
whole issue that we are talking about.
Mr. Pat Dutton, president of the Halifax, Annapolis Valley and
Digby chapters of Mothers Against Drunk Driving, compared these
new laws to a Christmas list being fulfilled. He said: “Today
all the things that are being put in place are things that are on
our list”.
It is very important to see this kind of involvement by
communities, to see the changes that are taking place in various
provinces and to see that all this is working together to try to
ensure that lives are protected and that people do not suffer
needlessly as a result of impaired driving.
The last time I spoke on this matter I indicated the concern
among my constituents of Halifax West that there should be the
capacity under provincial legislation to confiscate cars involved
in these offences. That is a very important issue.
Let us explore in committee the possibility of automatically
requesting from drivers breath and/or blood samples in crashes
resulting in serious injury or death. Let us review the current
two hour presumption limit to obtain a breath or blood sample.
Let us review all these things with a view to trying to improve
this situation. Let us not be afraid to examine the code, to
expand the reasonable or probable grounds on which law
enforcement officers can investigate crash scenes that involve
death or serious injury.
One of the big concerns in my riding of Halifax West is the
extent to which we are able to determine the role alcohol plays
in accidents causing death. Let us look at ways to ensure that
we know if alcohol has played a part in someone's death or injury
due to a traffic accident.
The policy statement Mothers Against Drunk Driving includes this
very important phrase: “While an individual's decision to
consume alcohol is a private matter, driving after consuming
alcohol or other drugs is a public matter”.
1235
I would like to just comment briefly at this point on the impact
the whole matter of drunk driving can have upon the lives of
families and on the lives of people who are affected.
We need not lose someone through drunk driving to know how
serious it is and how much pain one can feel when a loved one is
lost. I lost a nephew a number of years ago. He was aged eight.
It was as a result of a serious vehicle accident. The young
fellow was driving his bicycle on his way home and was crossing a
busy highway when a truck hit and killed him. We do not know in
that case whether there was alcohol involved, but whether there
was alcohol involved or not, the pain is still the same when we
lose a young life like that.
I remember this young fellow when I was actively involved in
karate. He wanted me to break some boards for him. Sometimes in
karate we have a technique where we break one inch boards. He
said, “Can you break a board for me, Uncle Gordon?” and I said,
“I suppose I could”. He ran down to his basement and came back
with a big 2x4. I looked at it and said, “I think maybe I will
have to do this on another occasion”. Sadly, the other occasion
did not arrive. I did not have the opportunity to break a board
for him because his young life was cut short at the age of eight
due to the accident.
When we add to that the loss of a loved one through drinking and
driving, we can imagine how much more pain and suffering we go
through knowing this life did not have to be lost.
Turning to Bill C-18 which deals very specifically with the
whole issue, it is an act to amend the criminal code and to deal
with the issue of the penalty. This legislation amends the
criminal code in order to strengthen impaired driving provisions
to ensure a sufficient deterrent effect on potential offenders
and that the sanctions to be imposed for offences involving
impaired driving reflect the gravity of the offence as well as
the degree of responsibility of the offender. Bill C-18 would
raise the maximum penalty for impaired driving causing death from
14 years imprisonment to life imprisonment.
The amendments implement recommendations of the House of Commons
Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights in its report,
“Toward Eliminating Impaired Driving”. The committee's
recommendations on the provisions of this bill are in response to
public pressure spurred by Mothers Against Drunk Driving, police
associations, victims groups and members of parliament from all
parties.
The NDP fully supports the legislation. The criminal code
amendments strengthen the penalties and increase the deterrent
values of the impaired driving provisions in the code. The
legislation addresses the seriousness of impaired driving in our
society by both strengthening the penalties for offenders and
increasing the options and powers available to the police and the
courts to more effectively combat drunk drivers.
We believe that passing legislation to ensure swift
implementation of the new provisions will save lives. It sends a
very important message that impaired driving is an avoidable
criminal act which carries unacceptable risks of injury and
death. In 1985 parliament added the offences of impaired driving
causing bodily harm and impaired driving causing death to the
criminal code with maximum penalties of 14 years imprisonment
where the result is death and 10 years imprisonment where bodily
harm is caused.
To the extent that penalties can discourage those who might
leave an accident to evade getting caught for impaired driving,
the changes to the offence of leaving the scene will send the
message that running away from a collision where someone is
injured or killed is a very serious behaviour and it carries a
serious penalty.
Estimates found there were roughly 1,300 deaths due to impaired
driving in 1997. Information from the Traffic Injury Research
Foundation study in Ontario suggested impaired drivers comprised
55% of the driving fatalities. The 1999 report by the Insurance
Corporation of British Columbia indicated that in each of the
years 1995, 1996, 1997 more than 80% of the impaired driving
deaths in British Columbia were comprised of impaired drivers and
their passengers.
The NDP would like to see zero tolerance on drinking and driving
on our streets and that these horrible statistics be greatly
reduced or eliminated so future generations of Canadians need not
suffer the horrible losses of this terrible crime.
1240
It is incumbent upon all of us as individuals to do what we can
to try—especially as we approach this holiday season when we
know a lot of people engage in frivolity, in celebrations and
quite often in drinking too much—to exercise due care and
responsibility to ensure that lives are not needlessly lost on
the highways.
* * *
NISGA'A FINAL AGREEMENT ACT
BILL C-9—NOTICE OF TIME ALLOCATION
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. An
agreement could not be reached under the provisions of Standing
Orders 78(1) or 78(2) with respect to the report stage and third
reading stage of Bill C-9, an act to give effect to the Nisga'a
final agreement.
Under the provision of Standing Order 78(3) I give notice that a
minister of the crown will propose at the next sitting a motion
to allot a specific number of days or hours for the consideration
and disposal of proceedings at the said stages.
The Deputy Speaker: Questions and comments.
Mr. Peter MacKay: Mr. Speaker, are these questions and
comments for the government House leader or for the previous
speaker, because I would like to ask how many times the
government has invoked closure at this point in the parliament.
The Deputy Speaker: We are not getting into a question
period on a point of order. The government House leader got up
on a point of order. He made his point of order and I am afraid
that is the end of the matter.
If the hon. member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough and the
hon. government House leader would like to have a discussion
about this, I suggest they do it in the lobby.
* * *
CRIMINAL CODE
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-18, an
act to amend the Criminal Code (impaired driving causing death
and other matters), be read the second time and referred to a
committee.
[Translation]
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC): Mr. Speaker,
it is always with pleasure that I rise in this House, and
particularly now to address this bill. I believe it is critical
that the minister recognize this important issue and have this
legislation introduced before Christmas.
[English]
I am very pleased that after months of delay the government has
come forth with legislation that will reintroduce the life
imprisonment clause for impaired driving causing death. This is
a very timely introduction of the bill.
The life imprisonment provision was originally part of Bill
C-82, the act to amend the criminal code with respect to impaired
driving, which came into law and into effect in the last
parliament.
Bill C-18 will allow a judge the discretion to invoke a life
sentence for impaired driving, in essence strengthening the
existing provisions of the code. Obviously it is contemplated
for the worst of all case scenarios, most aggravated
circumstances, repeat offenders, high readings and the like.
This simply raises the ceiling for this type of offence.
Vehicular homicide is murder, let there be no doubt. When it
comes to the result of a reckless and negligent act, the
intrusion that this places upon the victims of these types of
offences, the harsh reality is that a person killed by a car is
just as dead as a person killed by a gun.
These imprisonment provisions came in exchange for speedy
passage in the House. Some of the parties in opposition backed
away from this particular provision at the justice committee when
the legislation was to be introduced. Now they have
recapitulated and come forward in support and I am hoping that
support will continue throughout this debate.
The Conservative Party felt that these provisions were very
important and thus assurances were received from the Minister of
Justice that these clauses would be reintroduced as separate
legislation. I congratulate the minister for having had the
integrity and foresight to follow through with that.
The Conservative Party does support Bill C-82 but felt that
there were areas for improvement, this being one of them. Bill
C-82, without a doubt, improves upon the current outdated
legislation and introduces tougher sanctions in the areas of
fines and suspensions. But the bill itself did not give police
sufficient powers to protect society from hard-core drinkers
resistant to charges of impaired driving, nor did it allow for
automatic breath and blood samples to be taken from those who
were involved in impaired driving related accidents.
Tragically, most people have experienced or know a person
directly or indirectly whose life was affected due to careless
and negligent acts of a drunk driver.
1245
Criminal offences involving drunk drivers have declined 23%
since 1994. However, this is a bit of a misleading statistic.
In 1997, we know that the statistics started to level off again.
It is misleading because many individuals involved in this type
of activity simply do not get caught. We know that with the cuts
to police forces across the country, detachments are often
understaffed and officers simply do not have the sufficient
equipment and patrol cars to be out on the roads to combat this
most serious problems.
Mothers Against Drunk Driving released a press release in
November 1999 in which Carolyn Swinson dealt with the stats over
the last 15 years. The press release stated:
Jurisdat (did the statistics) reports that 103 people were
charged with impaired driving causing death. Yet Transport
Canada reports that 1,350 were killed due to impaired driving.
Jurisdat reports that 886 were charged with impaired driving
causing bodily harm. According to 1996 figures, there were
approximately 46,000 Canadians seriously injured in alcohol
related crashes...in some cases, police are opting to suspend an
impaired driver's licence with provincial administrative
sanctions rather than lay a federal criminal code charge.
This is because provincial governments proceed quicker through
the courts when a code section is invoked under those provisions.
As well, provincial governments do not collect statistics that
reflect this. Therefore, to suggest that the statistics are
truly indicative of the numbers of impaired drivers on the
highway is quite wrong.
British Columbia does collect statistics of provincial licence
suspensions that arise from these types of problems, and these do
increase proportionately to the same number that are showing up
in the federal statistics.
The problem itself is quite clear. Hard core drinkers continue
to get behind the wheel irregardless of efforts that are made
either through federal or provincial statutes. We should not be
content until we have tightened up both federal and provincial
legislation to deal with this problem in every way possible.
Where we can accomplish the saving of lives, it stands to reason
and is a statement of the obvious, that we as legislators and
elected persons should be putting every effort into the task of
ensuring safety on our roads and highways.
Positive steps that do come from this legislation include
provisions that would increase the time limit for breathalyzers
and approved screening devices in the testing of impaired drivers
to three hours, and also encouraging and strictly enforcing the
over .08 provision of blood alcohol concentration. All these
amendments will assist police officers in the performance of
their duties.
The previous speaker from the NDP spoke about the province of
Nova Scotia and the efforts made there to toughen its impaired
driving legislation. Nova Scotia Premier John Hamm has just
introduced and ushered in legislation that would suspend drivers
for 24 hours if .05 trace of alcohol was found in a person's
blood while operating a motor vehicle.
Premier Hamm and members of his administration, like Jim
DeWolfe, Bill Dooks and Ron Chisholm, are all working very
hard for all Nova Scotians and their constituents in this
particular legislative area. Yet, sadly, the problem persists.
It does not only persist with young people, which is another
misnomer about this particular problem. The Canadian Automobile
Association, CAA, says that its message to drunk drivers and the
dangers that flow from this is getting through to the age group
of 16 to 25, but impaired driving remains a stubborn problem with
respect to those in the age group 35 and older.
In 1997 in Ontario, more than 300 people were killed on the
roads as a result of drunk driving. If all of these drivers were
caught, that would hopefully stem the problem. However, it does
not stem the problems for the victims of these related accidents.
We know that lifetime suspensions that can result are one way to
deal with these particular drivers as an after the fact approach.
1250
However, drivers do have the provision and option now to install
interlock devices that will get them back on the road sooner.
These are very encouraging steps that the government, in
co-operation with the opposition, has worked toward bringing into
fruition.
Fines can be increased to at least $2,000, with judges being
given the option of imposing higher fines if the circumstances
dictate.
The Insurance Bureau of Canada says that over a two year period
an impaired driving conviction costs at least $5,000 in terms of
additional premiums to consumers. There are obviously spinoff
costs that relate to this problem as well. It is surely not to
suggest by any means that this is just a fiscal problem, because
the cost in human life and limb is the most prevalent and serious
aspect of the issue.
Yet even with financial hardship, embarrassment, publication of
names and this type of information, there are still individuals
who take the chance or stubbornly refuse to give up this type of
lifestyle and activity. The message has to be sent and sent
clearly.
There is often reference in the criminal code and in the court
rooms across the land to deterrents and denunciation. However,
the seem to be, in many instances, bad words or words that are
not quickly embraced by the justice system in the country. They
are noticeably absent from the new youth criminal justice act.
However, deterrents, both general and specific, still very much
have a role to play when judges and our criminal justice system
are attempting to send a message to individuals. That is to be
coupled with all sentencing provisions and all of the
considerations that judges must take in when crafting a sentence.
To combat the problem itself, we must assist police officers.
Police on average indicate that it takes two hours and forty-five
minutes to process a criminal code charge relating to impaired
driving. Police need better access to mobile breathalyzers,
physical sobriety testing and passive alcohol sensors to make
their job more efficient and to enable them to assist the public
in this battle against impaired driving.
Police officers do an amazing job with the tools that they have
but they are faced with fiscal undermining and a very complicated
and ever-increasing active criminal element in the country. The
police do the best they can to the best of their abilities but
they are increasingly frustrated. Warnings and fines do not work
on hard-core drinkers. The police need to have their powers
enhanced in some instances to get that message across.
As I indicated earlier, the Minister of Justice is to be
commended for reintroducing the legislation. I hope, and the
previous speakers have indicated that there will be broad support
for the legislation. I hope it will receive swift passage
through the House.
When it comes to the age of majority and the age of drinking,
one has to recognize that with privileges come responsibility.
Some consider a driving licence to be more of a right, than a
privilege, but it is in fact a privilege. It is incumbent upon
the legislators in this place to remind Canadians that there is
responsibility associated with that. Giving additional powers to
police officers to demand breath and blood samples whenever an
accident occurs would also be a welcome inclusion in the criminal
code when the accident that results from an impaired driver
leaves a person dead or injured.
I understand that the demand for a breath or blood sample
without sufficient evidence raises problems in the legal
community. There is a strong argument to be made about the
violation of an individual's rights, the presumption of innocence
and the charter implications, but on balance the need for these
powers to gather evidence and protect society from impaired
drivers, and because of the prevalence of this particular type of
offence, I suggest it is justified. This minor infringement is
certainly in the public interest. Currently an officer is
allowed to request a roadside breath sample based on reasonable
suspicion.
Based on an accident, this, in and of itself, is a suspicion
that an officer should and could rely on for the demand for a
blood or breath sample. In the confusion of an accident, it
stands to reason that officers are often very much concerned with
assisting injured individuals and evidence is simply lost.
Instead of forcing police officers to make sometimes very tough
judgment calls, everyone should be subjected to a breath or blood
sample within the discretion of the officer when the
circumstances arise.
This eliminates the judgment calls and relies on technology to
determine the guilt or innocence based on an approved screening
device.
1255
Inevitably there is a lengthy and legal wrangling that will
result over the admission of this type of evidence and the police
are very often put on trial in these types of criminal code
offence prosecutions.
This will allow a police offer to better do his duty. I also
suggest that it would free him up to be back on the street sooner
doing the job that he or she is entrusted to do.
I am suggesting that the strengthening of impaired driving
legislation will help the country. It will help all citizens in
improving the safety on our highways. It certainly will
strengthen the criminal code in its approach to this type of
offence. Bill C-18 is but a part of the puzzle. I am hopeful
that the House will also consider future changes to the criminal
code in this particular area.
Mothers Against Drunk Driving and other such administrative arms
have done a terrific job in raising the profile of this issue. We
can do a great deal more in terms of educating people about the
problem itself. We do have to do more to send a message to
habitual offenders who continue to endanger lives on the
highways.
Judge Clyde MacDonald, in my hometown of New Glasgow, Nova
Scotia, often used to say that an impaired driver under the
influence of alcohol driving down the Trans-Canada highway,
pointing the vehicle at innocent oncoming traffic, was no
different than pointing a gun at a person. That is the type of
realistic approach that we are hoping judges will take when
combating this problem.
We hear time and time again from the government, and hopefully
with all sincerity, that public safety has to be the number one
concern. I encourage all Canadians to support and embrace Bill
C-18.
I would like to recognize all members of the justice committee
who participated and worked extremely hard on this legislation. I
also want to thank the numerous witnesses who appeared before the
committee and gave their expertise and insight into this issue,
many of whom had been affected directly and gave heartbreaking
stories about how their lost loved ones had been taken from them
by impaired drivers.
For these people and for all Canadians, we have to send a
message that impaired driving will not be tolerated. As they did
with Bill C-82, I am hopeful that all members of the House will
put aside partisan politics and work together in this public
interest and vote in favour of Bill C-18.
Mr. Speaker, I want to take the opportunity to wish you and all
members of the House the best for the holiday season, a healthy
and safe holiday season.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I
work regularly with the Progressive Conservative member who just
spoke. I know that he is very attentive, knows his issues very
well and is a lawyer by training. He did practise law and, if I
am not mistaken, he was a crown prosecutor. The hon. member is
therefore very familiar with the whole structure of the Criminal
Code.
He also knows that some offences are more or less comparable to
impaired driving causing death.
I know that the hon. member has read several studies—if he has
not, I would invite him to do so, but I believe he has—
regarding the impact of imprisonment on an individual.
If a prison term is imposed on a person, what will be the real
impact of that measure on the individual when he gets out of
prison? Will that person have understood? Are there studies
showing that an offence that can lead to life imprisonment is a
deterrent to such a person?
Earlier I made a speech and I quoted justices from the supreme
court and the superior court.
I also quoted some reports from parliamentary committees. After
studying the same subject nearly every year for the past 20 years
at least, we have come to the conclusion that imprisonment will
not help lower the crime rate.
1300
In this case, the possibility of life imprisonment will not
deter an impaired driver from getting behind the wheel of his
car.
My question is very simple. A reading of the supreme court
decisions shows that it feels that there are far too many prison
sentences handed down in Canada, that Canada is one of the
countries that hands down prison terms the most in the western
world.
Committee reports say imprisonment is useless. In their reports,
the legal experts say that it is not the right way to deal with
those who have drinking problems.
By increasing the present 14-year sentence for impaired driving
causing death, no longer even imposed by judges, to life
imprisonment, does the member really think that it will
effectively reduce the number of offences of impaired driving
causing death? Does he really believe that it will have an
effect on those who drink and drive?
Mr. Peter MacKay: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my hon. colleague
who is a member of the Standing Committee on Justice for his
question. The hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm has worked very
hard.
[English]
The hon. member makes a very good point about rehabilitation.
There is no question that a person with an alcohol addiction
problem will not be cured out and out by a lengthy prison
sentence. However I spoke about the issues of deterrence and
denunciation that are required when it comes to the taking of a
human life.
The simple short answer to his question is that yes, sadly there
are occasions when a person has repeatedly taken a chance by
getting behind the wheel. As remarkable as it might sound, there
are occasions when four, five, six or ten convictions are racked
up and even after having spent time in prison the person will
still take that chance. If one life can be saved by a lengthy
period of incarceration, why would we not want to give judges the
discretion to impose that type of deterrent sentence?
My hon. friend is also a practising member of the Quebec bar. He
is intimately familiar with the criminal code, speaks in a very
erudite way about criminal law matters and shares my passion for
criminal law. However he knows that even the imposition of a 14
year sentence, or potentially a life sentence, does not mean that
the person will serve that amount of time in prison.
Time and time again we have seen corrections and the parole
board release individuals one-third, one-sixth or one-fourth into
their sentences. If a judge decides that an individual offender
has taken liberties and has jeopardized human life or human life
and limb, the person deserves a sentence in the range of a life
period of incarceration, which in Canada does not mean life. We
know that means at a maximum 25 years and usually much less. If a
judge can get the message out to the community, the small
communities that are willing to take the risk, then let us put
the tools in the hands of our judiciary to send that message.
Mr. Eric Lowther: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I did not want to interrupt the previous speakers, but
earlier this afternoon the House leader gave notice that there
would be closure on the debate on the Nisga'a bill. I am not
clear on this so I just want to ask the Speaker whether after one
day of debate it is appropriate to invoke closure.
There are 469 amendments.
I do not see how we will be able to deal with them in one day.
Can I have some advisement from the Chair in this regard? It
seems inappropriate.
1305
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bryden): I thank the member for
Calgary Centre for his intervention. The government only gave
notice and that really is not subject to debate.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Mr. Speaker, I
have a question. It is rare that we have the opportunity to ask
another a question after an answer, but I think that we must not
confuse the issue.
In the case of someone who has a drinking problem and who drives
while impaired and is arrested four, five or six times, the
Criminal Code, as amended last June by Bill C-82, allows for
stiffer sentences, and I applaud that.
If there had been better follow-up on that person, and if
participation in certain programs had been required—and I made
proposals in this regard in committee, but the government did
not respond—we might have been able to rehabilitate that
driver. It is a criminal offence, I repeat, to drive while
impaired.
My question is more technical. I know that the member was a
crown prosecutor, so he will be able to shed light on this
question for the House. He knows that the Criminal Code contains
the offence of dangerous driving. The maximum penalty is 14
years for hitting and killing someone.
Under the bill, if that person were hit and killed by an
impaired driver, there is a possibility of life imprisonment.
Does the hon. member find it logical to put that in the Criminal
Code?
[English]
Mr. Peter MacKay: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to respond to
the question. I agree that there are other sections of the
criminal code that address similar types of situations.
Impaired driving could also be prosecuted as criminal negligence
causing death. I personally favour the insertion in the criminal
code of a section that recognizes vehicular homicide. Perhaps
that might satisfy the hon. member in terms of having a code
section attached to that provision when there is a degree of
negligence coupled with the presence of alcohol.
With the greatest respect to my colleague from Quebec, we have a
difference in philosophy in terms of the rehabilitative process.
We also have a difference in philosophy on the vision of the
country. There is no question that we can do more about
rehabilitation when it comes to alcohol and drug related
problems, but the money has to be available.
Currently that is not the situation. The government has not put
the money forward for these types of programs to protect society.
Sometimes these individuals have to be incarcerated for lengthy
periods of time.
Mr. Mark Muise (West Nova, PC): Mr. Speaker, I was very
interested in the interaction between my two colleagues. Having
heard of deaths caused by impaired drivers in my riding and how
devastating it is to families, and also touching on the work that
organizations such as Mothers Against Drunk Driving have done, I
think this piece of legislation is worthy of debate. I find it
quite interesting to hear my hon. colleague from Quebec say that
we should not be imposing a life sentence.
I would ask my hon. colleague from
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough if there is any difference
between driving a car and killing someone while impaired or
taking a gun while impaired and pointing it at someone and
shooting? If it is good for one, why would it not be good for
the other?
Mr. Peter MacKay: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the question
of my colleague from West Nova. I know that he and all members
of the House are very concerned about this type of scenario.
He poses a very practical question.
1310
Earlier I referred to the commentary by Judge Clyde F. MacDonald
in Pictou county when he made that exact analogy. I suggested
that the current criminal code provisions spoke to murder and
manslaughter when alcohol was involved. Oftentimes that is the
case, particularly in domestic situations. It seems in those
cases it is only an aggravating circumstance. Or, sometimes
defence lawyers use it as a mitigating circumstance as to the
state of mind of the individual who committed the murder.
Surely impaired people, who voluntarily put alcohol in their
systems and get behind the wheel and go out on the highway and
kill someone, have to be dealt with very harshly under the
current provisions of the criminal code.
Mr. John McKay (Scarborough East, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
congratulate you on your ascension to the chair. You do indeed
look quite comfortable up there.
It is a pleasure to have the opportunity to speak to Bill C-18,
a bill with which I am quite familiar as a result of sitting on
the justice committee for the last two years. Originally the
bill saw the light of day as Bill C-82. The genesis of Bill C-82
was in fact in this parliament. Parliament instructed the
justice committee to draft a report and a bill and then report
back to parliament.
The committee listened to extensive testimony and became quite
familiar with the issues surrounding drunk driving in the course
of the testimony. The committee did in fact draft a report and
then the bill. Both the report and the bill were adopted
unanimously by the committee. It then successfully persuaded the
Minister of Justice to sponsor the bill back into the House, and
she was gracious enough to do that.
When the bill returned to the House, the Bloc Quebecois refused
to let it proceed unless the clause with respect to life
imprisonment was deleted. This was after unanimous agreement
among members of the justice committee on both the draft report
and the bill. The House leaders agreed that the clause would be
dropped and reintroduced. The balance of the bill was proceeded
with and proclaimed on July 1.
I have done very few things in parliament for which I have
received more compliments than the bill we introduced on July 1.
Constituents were thrilled with parliament and the government's
response to drunk driving. Frankly they were quite disturbed
when they later learned that we had not retained the provision
with respect to life sentencing.
They were very pleased with the committee's initiatives. It is
one of the most satisfying experiences I have had as a member of
parliament. It was quite a non-partisan experience as members on
both sides of the House worked very carefully. To quote one of
the members, we all put “a little water in our wine” to achieve
unanimity.
As I was saying, the clause with respect to life imprisonment
has been referred back to the House in the form of Bill C-18. The
issue in the bill is quite simple. If a drunk driver causes the
death of another person, that drunk driver is guilty of an
indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for life.
Presently the maximum is 14 years.
The other difference is with respect to the authority of the
justice of the peace to issue a warrant for the taking of a
sample if an accident has caused death as a result of the
consumption of alcohol or a drug. We heard some testimony in
this regard and I am pleased to see that the minister has taken
the opportunity to reintroduce that issue.
The issue of which I wish to speak is with respect to
imprisonment for life for causing death while one is impaired. I
would like to take this opportunity to bring before the House
certain pieces of testimony that we heard and which were very
persuasive to the committee.
The first was the testimony of Sharleen Verhurst and Jennifer
Dixon, both of whom are from British Columbia. Jennifer's
background is in the faculty of medicine at the University of
British Columbia. Sharleen's background is in the faculty of law
and criminal justice at the University College of Fraser Valley.
Sharleen is involved with the local RCMP detachment as a crime
prevention co-ordinator and speaks personally and with great
passion about these issues as her life has been affected.
I will take this opportunity to read into the record the
testimony because it gives reasoning to the debate, something
that is not always present here. It compels one to reach the
conclusion that the committee came to after listening to the
testimony. It reads:
In keeping with the need to view impaired driving as the serious
and deadly crime that it is, maximum sentencing requirements
should be aligned with that of a crime involving a weapon, as a
vehicle operated by an impaired driver is just that, a weapon.
1315
That point was mentioned by my hon. friend from
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough:
Minimum sentencing considerations should account for the sad fact
that though the offender receives jail time, family members and
friends receive “life sentences” without their loved ones.
There is simply no reason for an impaired driver not to deal with
the consequences of their own selfish actions.
It would seem that a maximum sentence for impaired driving
causing death should follow criminal code section 220(a), causing
death by criminal negligence using a firearm, as in both cases a
type of weapon is used to cause death.
She went on to recommend two things, one of which was
imprisonment for life for someone who kills while impaired.
The second piece of testimony that impressed the committee was
that of the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba and the Winnipeg
Police Services in a joint submission. Again I will read from
the record:
Present inconsistencies in sentencing give a message which
suggests that death or injury resulting from impaired driving is
somehow less serious or the driver is less responsible than death
or injury from other acts of irresponsible behaviour. The
drinking driver is no less responsible, having made the decision
to drive after drinking or by failing to make other arrangements
for transportation prior to drinking.
The simple message out of both of these testimonies is that if a
person causes the death of another human being by virtue of
drinking and being impaired, that person should be criminally
responsible for their behaviour and the penalty should be the
same as if the person caused the death of another person by means
of a weapon or by means of criminal negligence causing death.
If we think about it for a moment we will come to the
conclusion, as did the committee, that there is really no logical
counter argument. Whether the individual is dead by virtue of
the discharge of a firearm, a stabbing incident or a drunk
driver, the penalty should be parallel.
Think of the legal absurdity. If I am found to be guilty of
criminal negligence causing death while driving my car, but I am
stone sober, I am exposed to a life sentence, but if I kill
somebody while I am impaired in exactly the same circumstances,
my maximum exposure is 14 years. Should I therefore go out and
become impaired to reduce my liability? It does not make a great
deal of sense.
It makes no sense to give a life sentence for a form of
behaviour while sober and a lesser maximum while impaired and
engaging in similar behaviour. If I can get life imprisonment
for criminal negligence causing death or manslaughter, there is
really no compelling reason why a driver should not be given life
imprisonment for drunk driving.
Paragraph 54 of the committee's report states:
Because neither criminal negligence causing bodily harm or death,
nor manslaughter offences provide for a mandatory minimum prison
term, it would be inappropriate to do so for impaired driving
convictions, at this time.
The committee did not go with the minimums:
Otherwise, there could be a very great incentive to an accused
person to offer a plea to criminal negligence or manslaughter,
and a similar incentive to a crown attorney to accept it. The
same concern militates against increasing the 10-year maximum
penalty for impaired driving causing bodily harm, since the
maximum penalty for criminal negligence causing bodily harm is
also currently 10 years. However, because the maximum penalty
for both manslaughter and criminal negligence causing death is
life imprisonment, the committee is persuaded that the maximum
penalty for impaired driving causing death should be the same.
That recommendation was made after several months of testimony
which we heard all across the country and it was a unanimous
recommendation of the committee.
Therein lies the reasoning of the committee, and it is reasoning
supported by the testimony that has a logical symmetry so that
there is a parallelism and a balance in the criminal code with
other forms of behaviour which cause the death of an innocent
person. It really should not matter whether this death was
caused by manslaughter, was caused by criminal negligence or was
caused by impaired driving. The result is the death of another
human being and therefore the punishment should be similar.
Therefore, the committee was persuaded that a judge should be
able to sentence an individual to life imprisonment if the facts
and circumstances warrant that kind of sentence.
It made no sense to the committee to permit a judge to sentence
someone to life imprisonment if the death was caused by criminal
negligence or manslaughter but would be limited to 14 years if it
was caused by an impaired person driving a motor vehicle.
Therefore I think the reasoning of the committee is sound. It is
based on the evidence. Therefore I urge all members to support
the bill.
1320
I have heard a number of extraneous arguments in opposing the
bill. May I say that really many of those arguments have nothing
to do with the reasoning of the committee. It had nothing to do
with whether this is a rehabilitable offence or issues such as
that. It had everything to do with needing a logical consistency
and symmetry in the criminal code. If we do not have that we
will have other sets of logical inconsistencies which will make
absolutely no sense to the public.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for this opportunity to speak. I would
appreciate any opportunity to respond to questions.
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
generally appreciate the comments from the hon. member opposite.
He made many very good points that were agreed upon by people in
the committee.
There is one area on which I have a bit of an issue with him.
We need always to try to apply credit where credit is due when it
is possible. I think the committee did a good job but I think
there are the yeoman's efforts that were put forward by the
member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley that were largely
responsible for bringing this issue forward.
I heard the member opposite say that the Liberal government has
shown much strong initiative on this. Yet I am reminded, and
would be curious to hear his comments on this, there was a motion
on this put forward by the opposition led by the member just
mentioned back in 1996 that was unanimously adopted by the House
and no action was taken. We brought it forward again in 1997 and
it was adopted by the House. There was no action by the
government and then again in 1998. Finally we got some agreement
to get some action on it if we would delay the deadline until
1999. Now finally we have some legislation before us.
I see this largely driven by the Reform Party and the member for
Prince George—Bulkley Valley. The justice committee did
eventually respond. But I would just like to hear the member
opposite recognize the contribution made by the member mentioned.
Mr. John McKay: In the context of recognizing the
contribution made by the member for Prince George—Bulkley
Valley, I would also like to recognize the contribution of the
member for Berthier—Montcalm, the member for
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, the member for
Scarborough—Rouge River, the member for Sydney—Victoria. I
would say to the hon. member this was an all-party initiative,
that it did come from the House, that it was referred by the
House to the committee. The committee did ask for and did
receive an extension in time because as one got into the issues,
one started to realize that the issues were fairly complex. We
were rewriting the criminal code.
For a lawyer, it gets no better than that, to dive into the code
and rewrite the code in accordance with testimony that we heard.
We heard testimony from literally all over the country, some of
it initiated by the member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley. But
there are other areas where the member for Prince George—Bulkley
Valley was off in directions to which the committee would not and
could not go when they were logically inconsistent and could not
be supported.
For instance, the issue in this bill was minimums. If we think
about it for a few minutes, putting minimums in on this would
create another level of absurdity much like the member for
Berthier—Montcalm, who was concerned about the individual who
goes to a Christmas party, drinks one too many and kills an
individual. His argument was that takes the offender up to a
life sentence.
It would be even worse if we went to a minimum of seven years
because it may well be that a judge would say in the
circumstances that this is not an individual who is a habitual
drunk driver and that this was a mistake and even though there
was a very tragic consequence that the sentence should not be a
minimum of seven years. That is one of the reasons we did not go
that way. The member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley would
have gone that way.
There was much give and take in the committee. It was a period
of time of the committee which made me proud.
1325
There was a minimum of partisanship. After we got into the
bill, after we heard the testimony and after we drafted the
report we recognized that it was hard to take partisan positions
because it did not make a lot of sense. I thought it was a great
moment for the committee, and that member along with a number of
members of the House made significant contributions to the
committee.
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
realize it is difficult for a Liberal to give credit where credit
is due, particularly if that credit goes to a Reform member. I
want it to be publicly known that through his private member's
initiative the whole thing came to light. I applaud the member
for Prince George—Bulkley Valley on his efforts.
Does the member for Scarborough East believe that this law
should apply equally to persons under the age of 18?
Mr. John McKay: No, Mr. Speaker. It is fairly simple. We
treat individuals differentially when they engage in criminal
behaviour under age 18. I commend Bill C-3 to the member's
attention. That is not one of the recognized offences. I
appreciate the opportunity to answer the question.
Mr. Darrel Stinson (Okanagan—Shuswap, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I have more of a comment to make than a question. When
lawyers talk about that what they live for is rewriting the
criminal code, I want the member to know that they scare the
living daylights out of ordinary citizens. I say that in all
honesty.
I cannot see why those under 18 would not be charged the same. A
life is a life. When one is old enough to drive one is old
enough to take responsibilities. An impaired driver who drives a
vehicle is actually handling a weapon. It is the choice that one
makes when one decides to drive impaired.
Mr. John McKay: Mr. Speaker, the committee is not
composed of only lawyers. We did not receive a great deal of
testimony from lawyers. The only two lawyers' organizations that
made representations were the Canadian Bar Association and
Barreau du Québec.
The testimony that we received was from police officers and a
variety of other witnesses from across the country. My thought
on it was that it was actually good testimony which helped us to
think about it.
My comment with respect to writing it was that as a practising
lawyer it literally gets no better than having an opportunity to
open the criminal code and arrive at a legally sound and a
reasoned position so that the imposition of certain kinds of
penalties on certain kinds of criminal behaviour is consistent
with other parts of the code, because one can arrive at legal
absurdities which other lawyers will quickly exploit.
With respect to the issue of under 18, as far as I am concerned
people under 18 are still not adults. They are held criminally
responsible for their activities pursuant to the Young Offenders
Act, which is about to be changed pursuant to Bill C-3. If the
hon. member feels compelled that it should be brought before the
committee, that drunk driving should be included in category 6
offences which can receive adult sentences, I am open to the
idea. On the face of it, it strikes me as not a particularly
good idea. It strikes me as diminishing the whole concept and
philosophy of youth justice.
The Deputy Speaker: It being 1.30 p.m., the House will
now proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business as
listed on today's order paper.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
1330
[Translation]
CANADA LABOUR CODE
Mrs. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ) moved that Bill C-212, an act
to amend the Canada Labour Code, the Parliamentary Employment
and Staff Relations Act and the Public Service Staff Relations Act
(prohibited provision in a collective agreement), be read the
second time and referred to a committee.
She said: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise today
in the House to speak to Bill C-212, an act to amend the Canada
Labour Code, the Parliamentary Employment and Staff Relations
Act and the Public Service Staff Relations Act.
What this long title means in fact is that Bill C-212 would
render any provision in a collective agreement concluded under
these acts, excluding a provision based on the seniority
principle, of no force or effect where employees hired after a
specific date do not receive the same employee benefits, wages
or conditions of employment as those received by other employees
covered by the collective agreement.
Thus, if such a provision is contained in a collective agreement
signed on or after the coming into force of the act, it will be
declared of no force or effect.
Also, if such a provision is contained in a collective agreement
signed before the coming into force of this enactment, it will
be of no force or effect on a day that is two years after the
day on which this enactment comes into force.
In short, as a responsible political party, the Bloc Quebecois
would like to do away with orphan clauses, or discriminatory
clauses if you prefer, in all collective agreements under
federal jurisdiction.
Let us be clear. The labour minister and the federal government
absolutely refuse to admit there are orphan clauses in a number
of collective agreements under their jurisdiction. But, later on
in my remarks, I will prove that there are some.
Before going any further, we should agree on a definition of
orphan clauses. These are clauses in collective agreements under
which employees hired after a specified date do not receive the
same employee benefits, wages, or conditions of employment as
those received by other employees who have been hired before
that date.
Let us examine the direct and indirect impact of such clauses on
our society.
In Ottawa, the Bloc Quebecois has always been the only party to
care about this issue. But just in Quebec, we have over 100,000
workers who come under federal labour legislation, and are not
covered under the Quebec labour code. This is true not only for
Quebec workers, but for all workers in the rest of Canada.
Discriminatory clauses are the source of a lot of frustration
and create a rift between older and younger employees,
generating tensions within businesses where they are in use.
They greatly contribute to social inequality. Several studies
have shown that income inequalities in Canada are linked to
salary inequalities between young workers and more experienced
ones.
Between 1981 and 1993, the salaries of men aged 18 to 24 dropped
by 20%, while the salaries of men in the 45 to 54 age group
increased by 20%.
The orphan clauses are a problem that must be fixed. They
prevent young couples from providing their children with decent
living conditions from a very early age.
The Canadian Institute of Child Health explains the financial
difficulties young families are facing, and I quote:
Economically, today's young families with children are worse off
than were those of their parents' generation. In 1976, a single
parent with one child needed to work 41 hours a week at minimum
wage to bring the family up to the poverty line; in 1993, this
had increased to 73 hours per week.
The federal government, especially the Minister of Labour, must
recognize the long term effects of this kind of short term
solution, which badly penalizes young people.
1335
What is even more absurd, is that the labour minister and the
federal government do not recognize that these provisions are
discriminatory. A hundred thousand workers from Quebec who are
subject to the Canada Labour Code are not protected against
these discriminatory provisions.
When will the government understand that the opposition to these
orphan clauses has nothing to do with a generation gap, but
rather that these discriminatory provisions are what divide the
generations?
Discriminatory provisions hurt the younger workers and that has
significant social consequences on our society.
The goal here is not to make victims out of our youth, but to
take the time to consider the facts that seem to go against the
values of solidarity and fairness which are necessary to social
cohesion.
Orphan clauses in collective agreements can make members of some
generations feel they are being treated unfairly. Unfairness at
a time when people are not as wealthy as they used to be is
totally unacceptable. In this period of austerity, we have to
stick together.
In order to decry and fight against the unfair treatment handed
out to the poor, the young, the elderly and so on, generations
absolutely have to stand united.
Why does the federal government not do as the province of Quebec
did and create a parliamentary committee to consider the issue
of discriminatory provisions in federal collective agreements?
Are the labour minister and the federal government scared of
facing the truth? Why not give the various stakeholders and
parliamentarians the opportunity to go before a parliamentary
committee and discuss this issue? Holding a social debate
throughout Canada, would that not be a healthy and democratic
way to address such an important issue as the orphan clauses?
The federal government would rather stay mute, turn a deaf ear
and not take responsibility for a social problem that is all too
real.
In Quebec there is a strong consensus among a number of
different stakeholders against the so-called orphan clauses.
Opponents include the Bloc Quebecois, the national executive of
the Forum Jeunesse du Bloc Quebecois, the Conseil national du
Parti Quebecois, the Conseil des jeunes du PQ, the Jeunes
libéraux du Québec, the CSN, the FTQ, the CERQ, to name but a
few.
Moreover, a Sondagem survey carried out from March 20 to 24
found that 59.6% of the population of Quebec was opposed to
unions signing collective agreements which imposed working
conditions and salaries on new employees that were less
advantageous than those of existing employees, and 41.7% of
respondents reported that they would accept a cut in salary in
order to make it easier for young people to enter the work
force.
Given these survey findings, it is inconceivable that the
federal government continues to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear.
If it really intends to put an end to these orphan clauses, let
it pass legislation along the lines of my Bill C-212.
When will the federal government finally have the courage to
speak out against orphan clauses as the people of Quebec have?
I can assure hon. members that the Bloc Quebecois will keep on
the federal government's case until it abolishes these clauses.
As I have said, certain federal collective agreements do indeed
contain discriminatory clauses. I will give some examples.
Let me start with the CBC. The Syndicat des techniciens et
artisans du réseau français de Radio-Canada has negotiated an
agreement with an orphan clause. Article 31.1 of that agreement
reads as follows, and I quote:
Job guarantees, employees hired prior to December 1983.
When the Corporation makes a decision to significantly reduce
operations at a given location, there will be no layoffs,
terminations or salary reductions for STRF and NABET employees
who were on strength as of December 31, 1983 and who are still
employed on the date of signature of this collective agreement,
provided they have completed their probationary period.
1340
And article 31.2 reads as follows, and I quote:
Unprotected employee (hired after December 1983).
An employee who has completed a probationary period but is not
personally protected under article 30.1.1 above or article 31.1
below, may be laid off, have his employment terminated or have
his salary reduced if the workforce reduction is for reasons
other than those set out in article 29 (section 9), pursuant to
article 33 (section 9).
Obviously, a worker who joined the CBC after December 1, 1983
may be laid off, have his employment terminated or have his
salary reduced.
But workers who joined before December 1 have job and pay
guarantees.
Here is concrete proof that there are indeed orphan clauses in
federal government agreements. So the minister should stop
telling us otherwise, because it is not true.
Orphan clauses are not restricted to collective agreements.
They are probably one of the most discriminatory clauses in
Canada and can be found in the EI legislation.
The EI clause, introduced in 1993, goes a long way towards
explaining why the rate of coverage for young people between the
ages of 20 and 24 has dropped from 49.1% in 1993 to 26.6% in
1998.
This provision affects approximately 56,000 young people
annually. The clause that discriminates against young people
can be found in section 7, Part 1, of the Act.
The eligibility criteria for new entrants and re-entrants to the
labour force are different. This is a clause similar in every
respect to the one found in certain collective agreements. But,
in this case, we are talking about the federal government's most
important social safety net. This clause potentially affects
every young person in Canada. Not only does it create two
classes of workers, but it also creates two classes of citizens.
Bill C-212 seeks to put a stop, by eliminating any legal
loophole, to any form of discrimination based on the use of
orphan clauses, and should thus punish any violation of the
principle governing intergenerational solidarity, without which
a just and fair society cannot exist.
The fight of the Bloc Quebecois against discriminatory clauses
is a quest for equity. All workers in Quebec and in Canada are
entitled to the protection that will be provided by Bill C-212.
This fight is about ensuring a more just and fair society.
On February 9, the hon. member for Charlesbourg introduced Bill
C-470 which, like Bill C-212, sought to prohibit discriminatory
clauses.
At the time, the federal government refused to debate the
proposed measure. Today, I am coming back with Bill C-212.
I do hope that the government will finally open its eyes and
recognize that the use of orphan clauses creates social
inequalities, something which must be condemned.
I hope the other opposition parties will support the Bloc
Quebecois legislation. We should not engage in petty politics,
as the Liberals really enjoy doing, when we are dealing with
such an issue.
I also ask those Liberal members who have a social conscience to
break ranks with their party and to support my bill.
The evolution of society must not be viewed strictly with the
present generation in mind. We must look further ahead and think
about the future generations that will ensure our social,
economic, political and cultural development.
Bill C-212 seeks to give hope to young workers in Quebec and in
Canada who work in a federally legislated business, and who are
entitled to the same benefits as their elders.
With its Bill C-212, the Bloc Quebecois wants to send to the rest
of Canada a clear message that young workers, and those who are
trying to join the workforce or are preparing to do so, must be
considered full-fledged citizens, like all the other citizens of
Canada.
1345
[English]
Mr. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I would like to make a couple of points with particular regard to
the comments by the hon. member who just spoke in support of her
private members' bill.
First of all, I would take some exception that this is about
having or not having a social conscience. Frankly, this is very
clearly an issue about labour relations. To suggest that because
a member on this side of the House, or of another party, does not
support this means that somehow we do not have a social
conscience is not an acceptable remark.
This is clearly about the relationship between Canada and the
provinces. The Minister of Labour in the province of Quebec has
introduced a bill that this one mirrors. In fact, this one is
drawn primarily from that bill. It is Bill 67 in the province of
Quebec. I understand the minister in that province held a number
of public consultations where people, including young people,
gave their advice and opinions on this bill.
The minister has admitted that she was unable to arrive at a
consensus within her own province of Quebec, yet she is going
ahead with introducing it into the national assembly. I presume
that is because there are fundamentally only two parties of
strength in the legislature and it will carry. I assume that Mr.
Bouchard's government will pass this into law. This is a
provincial labour issue they are dealing with and they have every
right to do that within the rights and the boundaries of their
particular jurisdiction.
I find it strange though that a member of the Bloc would stand
and say that because this is good for her province that this
should necessarily expand to be good for all Canadians. It is
quite an unusual day to see a separatist defending anything
outside the borders of the province of Quebec. I have some
difficulty with the rationale that somehow this should be good
for all of Canada. In fact, this is gerrymandering and political
manipulation with the socialists who are obviously chirping away
and who are obviously in bed with the separatists. So we have
the socialists and the separatists, the separatists and the
socialists, together once again. Philosophically I understand
that. I know where they come from. They believe that all the
collective bargaining and contracts should be done by mother
state as opposed to allowing the collective bargaining process to
work.
That is fundamentally the difference of philosophy between this
side, the government, the NDP, and in this case the Bloc. The
Bloc members are fundamentally socialists.
I will talk about my dad who the member went on about. My
father, when he was national director of the United Steelworkers
of America, in all of Canada by the way, negotiated an agreement
with Inco in Sudbury. He negotiated a seven year collective
bargaining agreement, the longest collective bargaining agreement
in history. That agreement put into place the protections that
were necessary for the employees of the day and for new hires who
came along as the seven year process expanded.
I wonder what people like Bill Mahoney or Larry Sefton would say
about the parliament of Canada telling the unions and the union
leaders, who are duly elected by the rank and file of their
union, who have a mandate given to them by the men and women who
are in that union, what they should do to protect the men and
women in their union. Not only people like my father and Larry
Sefton, but I think of old time, hard working union leaders like
Joe Morris, Dennis McDermott and Johnny Barker from Sault Ste.
Marie, who had a great saying. The socialists will love this.
Johnny used to say, “Don't let your bleeding heart run away with
your bloody head”.
I always thought it was a classic. Johnny understood that if
there was not a plant in Sault Ste. Marie that was functioning
and creating steel products, there would not be jobs for the
members. Johnny understood that this was not a sector of society
where the government should be sticking its palmy, greedy little
fingers. Allow the union leaders and the executives who work in
the industrial part of this country to come together and to work
out agreements that make sense.
1350
While I am on that subject, the labour movement is big business.
We think about it in terms of being a union. Let me tell the
members it is big business.
When I was 16 years old I drove the getaway car for my dad when
we went to Sudbury with the steelworkers leading the raid on mine
mill. Why? We wanted to get the communists the heck out of the
labour movement. There were too many of them infiltrated in the
mine mill and we wanted to get them out. We needed a getaway
driver because it was dangerous stuff.
It was scary stuff. They attempted to assassinate him on a
couple of occasions. There were brawls in the hall of the
President Hotel in Sudbury. There were police in the streets.
It was violent stuff, and I did not understand. I said “Dad,
what the heck are you doing this for?” I did not understand
what he was doing. I thought this was a lot of scary stuff and I
would rather be back home in Toronto, in Etobicoke, in my
comfortable home than up here with all these tough mine workers
and steel workers and all the fighting and everything else.
Do the hon. members know what it was about? It was about money.
Let me tell the members why. I did not know it then, but the
mine mill people were paying monthly dues into their union and so
were the steelworkers. We had two unions, both negotiating
directly with the company in Sudbury. They were negotiating. One
would get a deal, then the other one would come in and say “I
want a better deal” and the other one would come in and say “I
want to one-up those guys”. There were conflicts. There were
more fights between the unions in Sudbury in those days than
there ever were between the company and the union.
It is really interesting to hear the NDP members going on. They
have no understanding of the relationship, the positive, the
pragmatic relationship that could be developed between a
pragmatic labour leader representing the constituents, not
walking around saying “I am vice-president of the New Democratic
Party. Hear me roar”. What a bunch of nonsense.
NDP members should ask themselves a question. If all people in
the labour movement are socialist, how come those guys never get
any votes? How come the New Democratic Party does not form a
government? How do we elect federal Liberals in Sault Ste. Marie
and Oshawa? How do we do that? How do we elect, God forbid,
provincial Tories in places like that?
The NDP have to get elected somewhere. NDP members have to get
a job somewhere. I understand that. We know that they are in
trouble. They have gone from two, and what are they up to, half
a dozen or a dozen or whatever it is. Joe who? Joe what?
It is really an interesting thing. Why is it that the people in
the labour movement in Windsor—think about it, Windsor—why do
they not elect New Democratic Party members? I do not know. They
have even tried getting together to do strategic voting and they
get thrown out of office. Maybe they should understand that the
men and women who work in the industrial heartland of this
country have the same problems that we all have. They want to
put their kids through school. Their VISA bill is about to
explode. Christmas is coming and they have to find the money to
buy gifts for their families.
They are concerned about their future. They are concerned about
their pensions. They are not concerned about political
manipulating and gerrymandering by any level of government to
interfere in what is a true, great democratic process in this
country called collective bargaining. It works. We should
support collective bargaining and we should stick to what we need
to do as a government which, I would say to the hon. member
opposite, is to keep this country united as the greatest country
in the world in which to live.
1355
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise to participate in the debate on this private members' bill
brought forward by the Bloc Quebecois member for Laurentides.
This bill seeks to ban the so-called orphan clauses or
grandfather clauses from being included in collective agreements
bargained for under the jurisdiction of the Canada Labour Code,
the Parliamentary Employment and Staff Relations Act and the
federal Public Service Staff Relations Act.
These clauses allow older workers or senior workers and long
time employees to keep their acquired rights and privileges such
as hours or pay rates. These clauses are needed whenever a new
collective agreement is reached which changes the previous
conditions of employment.
The problem that is created with this is that new and mostly
young workers begin a job that, for example, pays less in the new
agreement than it did in the old. It could be that an employee
who has been with a company for 10 years is making more money
than a new employee doing the same job. This would happen if a
10 year veteran had his or her pay rate from a previous
collective agreement protected in a subsequent collective
agreement that applies to a new employee coming on to the job
after that new agreement takes effect.
This is the problem that the hon. member is trying to address.
At face value it seems a noble pursuit. She is fighting a
seemingly discriminatory two-tiered wage scheme. If the workers
who are generally young people start at lower rates, it can take
longer for them to catch up. I believe that these things should
be worked out at the bargaining table during collective agreement
negotiations between the employer and the employees.
For the benefit of those who are listening, Reform Party policy
on employment and labour management relations states:
A. The Reform Party supports the right of workers to organize
democratically, to bargain collectively, and to strike
peacefully.
B. The Reform Party supports the harmonization of
labour-management relations, and rejects the view that labour and
management must constitute warring camps.
C. The Reform Party supports the right of all Canadians,
particularly the young, to enter the work force and achieve their
potential. Unions and professional bodies may ensure standards
but should not block qualified people from working or from
gaining the necessary qualifications.
Among other things regarding labour relations and collective
bargaining, this is what the grassroots members of our party have
written as our policy.
I commend the hon. member for bringing Bill C-212 before the
House. She has no doubt done a great deal of work on her bill.
I asked her office to provide me with further information,
further to the bill itself, for my information, knowledge and use
in preparing to speak today. But the member refused. She told
her assistant to tell my assistant that she would not provide me
with explanatory notes or any other information related to the
bill. This was most peculiar. Why the secrecy?
At any rate, I did my own research on this bill. I have spoken
with Labour Canada and the Professional Institute of the Public
Service of Canada. I contacted the Action démocratique Québec in
the Quebec legislature and I have done research including a
search of the media to find out what other people are saying
about this issue and this bill.
This bill is similar to Bill 67 introduced by the Quebec
separatist government.
1400
This explains why the hon. member is bringing this matter before
the House. She wants the federal government to apply the same
laws that the Quebec separatists are going to apply in their
province.
The separatist government in Quebec tried to pass this
legislation before the last Quebec provincial election but it
failed. It is trying to pass it again and it is having problems
again.
Consultations were held throughout Quebec. Employers were
accused of not treating young people fairly and unions were
accused of bargaining for less favourable working conditions for
young people.
A report prepared by the Quebec labour department and tabled by
the Quebec labour minister in the Quebec legislature says that if
Quebec passes the law it will cost thousands of jobs. I might
add that the Quebec media reported that the labour minister
tabled the report without even knowing if it concluded that these
jobs would be lost. Not only does this uncover the incompetence
of the separatist minister, but it also points to the
difficulties of accomplishing what this bill is trying to do.
It is no wonder that one is hard pressed to find any other
jurisdiction that has this legislation. This legislation is not
found anywhere because it is not needed. Even if we give the
hon. member the benefit of the doubt and try to justify the
federal government becoming involved in the collective bargaining
process, we find that we would place the government in the
position of micro-managing things. These kinds of policies lead
to a crippled, ineffective government.
We are trying to remedy a phenomenon that took place in the
1980s. The recession caused two tier wage schemes to be adopted
as a means of fighting the economic recession and saved jobs from
being lost. These two tiered systems were not resorted to
everywhere, and where they were, we hope they will be negotiated
away by the arrival of the new millennium.
The stagnant Quebec economy, almost entirely ruined and soon to
be entirely ruined by the minority separatist movement, appears
to be continuing to suffer from the two tier wage scheme. This
is to be lamented. Jobs in Quebec are indeed extremely valuable.
The separatists should learn from this debate. They should
learn that in their economy there have been unique problems
because of the political separatist movement. Their economy
cannot grow because investors do not want to risk their money in
a place that could plunge into turmoil and chaos at any time.
Problems that are at least 20 years old continue to persist as
the separatist political leaders stubbornly continue on their
mission at the expense of workers and young Quebecers. It is
sad, but true.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased
to rise in the House today to support Bill C-212 sponsored by the
hon. member for Laurentides.
This bill would amend the Canada Labour Code, the Parliamentary
Employment and Staff Relations Act and the Public Service Staff
Relations Act. It renders any provision in a collective
agreement concluded under these Acts—excluding a provision
based on the seniority principle—of no force or effect where
employees hired after a specified date do not receive the same
employee or pay benefits or conditions of employment as those
received by other employees covered by the collective agreement.
In practical terms, this bill is a protection for new entrants
in the workforce and for and younger workers newly hired by a
business.
1405
This bill provides that these workers will receive the same pay
and conditions of employment as those received by other workers.
This bill addresses the issue of what is commonly called the
orphan clauses. These clauses provide for workers hired after a
specified date conditions that are lower than those set out in
the collective agreement for other workers, in terms of pay,
probationary period, social benefits, employment security of
retirement plans.
These clauses may be temporary or permanent, depending on
whether or not the new workers will be able in the short, medium
or long term to enjoy the same working conditions than the older
workers.
There are four main types of orphan clauses.
The first ones are permanent clauses dealing with pay scales.
Under these clauses, the pay of older workers and the pay of new
ones increase according to different pay scales, and the new
workers cannot reach the same pay ceiling as the older workers.
There are also permanent clauses concerning flat rates of pay.
Under these clauses, older and new workers are paid according to
a flat rate, the rate for new workers being lower than the one
for older workers.
Third, there are permanent clauses dealing with both a flat rate
of pay and a pay scale.
There are two possible scenarios under this scheme: either the
older workers are paid according to a flat rate while the new
workers are paid according to a wage scale without having the
chance to ever reach the top rate given the older workers, or
the older workers are paid according to a wage scale while the
new workers are paid according to a flat rate which never
reaches the pay ceiling granted to the older workers.
Finally, there are the temporary formulas applicable to wage
scales, where the pay of old and new employees increases
according to separate scales whose higher levels are established
at the same rate.
It is clear that no matter what formula is applied,
discriminatory clauses are causing a lot of frustration, are
creating a cleavage between old and new employees and are
generating tensions within businesses.
Discriminatory clauses can also affect the solidarity of union
members, while undermining the credibility of unions with young
people.
This bill addresses these legitimate concerns toward these
discriminatory clauses that guarantee the working conditions of
employees who are now in their position but that provide for
reduced benefits for future employees.
Discrimination toward new employees, mainly young people, is the
direct consequence of these agreements.
This bill recognizes and supports the seniority principle.
However, it would prevent the implementation, in a collective
agreement, of other discriminatory clauses that would allow
employers to fill vacant positions by giving reduced salaries or
benefits.
Young people already have so much difficulty in the labour
market without facing this additional discrimination. First of
all, it is quite a challenge to find a job. Too often young
people come out of universities and colleges, but cannot find
work because they do not have the experience required.
It is a vicious circle where our young people are trying to gain
experience but do not have the opportunity to enter the job
market. Right now, once again, some people want to punish them
and discriminate against them.
I can understand, having been a union negotiator in the past,
that union representatives are sometimes pushed to the wall.
They are being told that if they do not want this or that they
will not have a collective agreement. Some governments have used
blackmail, saying “if you do not want that, everybody will be
fired”. So they did not have a choice and were caught in this
war to try to keep the jobs of their employees or their members.
It is unfortunate to see that the member for Mississauga West
has so little respect for unions when his brother worked for a
union for years and his union salary allowed him to put food on
the table. He was able to eat thanks to the steelworkers union.
He should be ashamed to rise today in the House of Commons and
not be able to make a speech in all honesty and not even have
respect for his own brother and for all the work he has done in
this country.
1410
For those who manage to find jobs, they are always temporary
contract jobs that provide no security.
Once their contract is over, these same young people are left
without a job and most of them are not eligible for employment
insurance because of the 910 hours rule for new entrants. Once
again, this is the fault of the Liberals and the Conservatives,
who just keep hammering young people. That is what happened and
today they still want to hammer young people by offering them
salaries that are different from those of other employees.
Right now, only 15% of young people who are unemployed receive
employment insurance benefits.
For young women without a job, the situation is even more
precarious. Only 10% of them get employment insurance benefits.
As if the situation of young workers were not difficult enough
as it is, we have multiplied the number of orphan clauses
according which new employees are paid lower wages and get lower
benefits than their fellow workers who perform the same duties.
We must put an end to such discrimination. Our young workers
deserve the same wages and benefits as their fellow workers who
perform the same duties. After all, it is a matter of equity.
When I was a union representative, I even refused that a student
be paid differently than another worker who had more seniority
in the business.
Our young people must not be discriminated against, as they are
our children. Any member who is unwilling to support our
children does not deserve to represent his riding.
Today, I noticed that the member for Laurentides asked a
question to the Minister of Labour on this subject. The minister
answered this, and I quote “All collective agreements are
drafted by management and the union. Therefore, it is up to them
to include appropriate clauses in theses agreements”.
How can the Minister of Labour adopt such an attitude toward
our young workers?
When we talk about the Minister of Labour's duties, we are
mostly talking about the public sector. Does the Minister of
Labour really want the future generation to lose everything we
fought so hard for for so many years?
Young people's lives should get easier from one generation to
the other. However, for the current generation they are getting
worse. Post-secondary education is more and more expensive even
if the quality of education is diminishing.
As I have said before, jobs are more difficult to find and
working conditions are getting worse. We are now faced with
orphan clauses which deal directly with our young workers' wages
and working conditions. The Minister of Labour says that she has
nothing to do with it. If she really wants to protect the rights
of young people and workers, she should support this initiative.
As parliamentarians, we should ensure that future generations
will benefit from a better quality of life than what we have
now. However, we often consider only the short term and in so
doing we neglect the needs of our young people.
This initiative of the member for Laurentides is a good
opportunity to begin to correct this situation. It is a good
occasion to tell our young people “You are important to us and
we will make sure that your interests are taken into account”.
I urge all my colleagues to support Bill C-212 and to end this
discrimination against our young people.
And to the Reform Party, which keeps talking about separation
and separatists, I say that right now, on a Friday in the month
of December, Quebec has not yet separated from Canada and we
should not be talking about separation. We should work together.
I commend the hon. member for Laurentides for having introduced
this bill in the House. I support it.
[English]
Mr. Charlie Power (St. John's West, PC): Mr. Speaker, I
too would like to associate myself with the comments of the
member for Acadie—Bathurst and say, yes, I am delighted that on
December 3 Canada and Quebec are still partners in this great
Confederation. I am sure that this is the way it will stay for
many generations to come.
1415
I want to congratulate the member for Laurentides for bringing
in any piece of legislation, private members or otherwise, that
tries to protect the rights of workers in this country. In this
country, albeit we do have great difficulties on occasion, one of
the difficulties we have is making sure our workers are treated
fairly and properly in the workplace.
When we look at some of the things that are happening to the 1.3
million Canadians who are unemployed, it is a case where in many
ways they are the forgotten members of Canadian society. There
are 1.3 million Canadians unemployed every given day, December 3,
December 4, January 3, January 4, the year 2000, the year 1999,
the year 1998. It seems to make little or no difference that we
have this stagnant high unemployment rate of 1.3 million
Canadians, over 8% across the country. In Newfoundland, something
like 17% of our workforce is unemployed. We will be more than
happy to support any piece of legislation that will increase the
chance of workers to earn a decent livelihood and be treated
fairly in the workplace.
Being treated fairly in the workplace means that the government
has to do a lot more than what it is doing now for the unemployed
and the workers. If we are unemployed in Canada, we seem to be
forgotten by the government. If we go work, we seem to get
gouged by the government at every opportunity.
The EI fund is one example of where workers are abused and
discriminated against in the country, where they are taxed above
the norm and the tax goes into the employment insurance fund. The
fund has a surplus in excess of $30 billion which is owned
primarily by the workers and the employers of Canada. Whether
people are unemployed or working in the country, they can be
discriminated against in many different ways.
Our party thinks that the EI fund has to rectified. Workers'
rights have to be preserved and enhanced in any way possible.
Bill C-212 does some of that and we are more than happy to
support it.
When people are or are not working in Newfoundland, they find
that there are no training dollars. People do not realize it but
the HRDC office in Atlantic Canada and in Newfoundland, in
particular, continually flaunts the statistics which say that the
better educated and better trained we are the more opportunities
we will have to get a job.
In Newfoundland there is not one solitary cent of discretionary
spending that can now be approved for training in January of this
year. All of the training money that was allocated has been
committed up to August. The new budget starts on April 1 and by
August all the training money will be committed. This means that
a large number of Newfoundlanders who are among the 17%
unemployed and who would like to get into the workforce, pay
taxes and contribute to Canada, have no opportunity to do so
because the Government of Canada has not seen fit to put some of
the money, that it is taking from the working public of Canada
through the EI fund, back into the training and education
programs.
Those are examples of discrimination against workers. This
morning I asked some questions of the Minister of Transport, or
his parliamentary secretary, about the InterCanadian employees.
Today we have 900 employees whose lives are in a state of chaos
because they do not know if they have a job. Of those employees,
700 in non-management have not received a paycheque this week
because InterCanadian has had to cease business.
Why did it have to cease business? It had to cease business
because the Minister of Transport said that the Canadian airline
industry was in crisis. As a result, InterCanadian lost a
significant share of the market and was not able to effectively
conduct their business.
This was a crisis created by the Minister of Transport who said
something and then did not get involved in finding a solution.
Today there are 700 families with no paycheques coming in from
InterCanadian in Quebec and in Atlantic Canada. It is a shame.
This was caused by the Government of Canada saying one thing and
not being willing to get involved to the same degree that it was
in an earlier deal when some big shots, some very well-connected
people, were going to use Onex, as a Canadian company, for a
foreign-based takeover of Air Canada.
There is discrimination against workers in the workplace. We
saw the same thing happen with Air Atlantic when it moved out of
Newfoundland and Atlantic Canada without any warning. The
Minister of Labour for the Government of Canada gave it relief
from a 16 week severance package proviso that is in the labour
code and had to be followed unless the Minister of Labour gave an
agreement not to have it so done, which meant it took money out
of the pockets of every worker who used to work for Air Atlantic.
When the member for Laurentides brings up Bill C-212, a bill
that promotes equal treatment of employees within the workforce,
allowing for the provisos of seniority, then we in our party are
more than happy to support it. If it equalizes wages, benefits
and opportunities for people in the workforce, then we are more
than happy to do it.
1420
We congratulate the member for bringing forward the bill. It is
one more way to make the workplace somewhat more fair. It takes
into account the concerns relating to seniority which are in all
workplace agreements.
The Progressive Conservative caucus will be happy to support the
legislation because it makes the workplace somewhat more fair for
those who are lucky enough to be in it.
Mr. John McKay (Scarborough East, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
welcome the opportunity to speak to Bill C-212, although I cannot
see myself supporting it. As far as the government is concerned
the bill is not good public policy. It is an invitation to
micromanage complex employment-employee relations from afar. If
experience has taught us anything, it is that government is not
good at micromanagement.
The bill is not consistent with the intent and philosophy of the
Canada Labour Code which sets the framework and fundamental
principles governing free collective bargaining in federal
jurisdiction. The Canada Labour Code has served the workers of
Canada for in excess of 100 years. Canada's philosophy
concerning relations is based on notions of freedom of
association and free collective bargaining, no micromanagement.
We believe in an approach to industrial relations that allows
parties in the workplace to determine the terms and conditions
that best govern their situation. The heavy hand of government
should not be present in all relations between employers and
employees. We do not believe government should regulate the
relationship. We do not believe the Canada Labour Code should
intrude unnecessarily into the collective bargaining process.
As hon. members will recall, our government brought forward
amendments to part I of the Canada Labour Code last year. The
legislation was passed in January of this year. Amendments
improved and modernized the code, making the provisions governing
collective bargaining in the federal jurisdiction more efficient.
Before bringing forward the new legislation extensive
consultations were undertaken. The consultations took many
forms: public consultations, written submissions, informal
meetings, consultations with interested groups, academic round
tables, consultations with the Canada Labour Board, and labour
management consensus groups.
The consultations addressed four key issues including ways to
improve the collective bargaining process, methods to ensure the
effective and efficient administration of the code, ways to
facilitate labour-management co-operation, and changing workplace
and employment relationships.
A total of 87 submissions were received from a broad spectrum of
stakeholders in the federal jurisdiction. They included employer
groups, unions and labour organizations, academics, provincial
governments, territories, and other interested parties. Each
part of the country was represented including many organizations
from the member's home province of Quebec, but none of the
submissions asked for the kind of changes the member is asking
for in the proposed bill. In hockey parlance, it did not make
the cut.
In other words, based on such an extensive consultation process
involving such a wide variety of persons there does not appear to
be a widespread concern within the labour community for the
changes proposed in the bill. As a member of the government
party of Canada I am opposed to the bill because it is not
consistent with the philosophy and objectives of Canada's
industrial relations system.
I understand the Government of Quebec has introduced amendments
to Bill 67 which amends Quebec's labour standard legislation. The
bill has an objective that appears similar to Bill C-212. It
also came to our attention that the original bill introduced by
the Quebec minister of labour last June has run into some
difficulties. We saw in the media, for example, that there was a
growing opposition to the Quebec bill from some groups, even
those who advocate change.
On balance there does not seem to be consensus on what needs to
be done in Quebec. Organizations representing students and young
workers have expressed concerns about a situation which according
to them discriminates against younger workers who do not receive
the same wages and benefits as older workers. They have pressed
for a legislative answer.
1425
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member,
but, as he knows, our rules allow the mover of the bill five
minutes to wrap up at the end of the hour provided for the
consideration of Private Members' Business.
Therefore, the hon. member for Laurentides has the floor for
five minutes.
Mrs. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ): Mr. Speaker, after having
heard all the speakers, I would like to summarize the situation
and say a few more words about Bill C-212.
The Liberals, the governing party, have once again buried their
heads in the sand. Once again, they have ignored the problem
caused by orphan clauses. It is a if it did not exist as far as
they are concerned. Instead they indulged in petty politics,
answering me almost rudely.
They said that all Quebec talked about was separation and that
we should not get involved in the orphan clause issue. I have
been sitting as an elected member of this place for six years
already. I deal with federal issues, not with Quebec issues at
the National Assembly; I do sit in the Parliament of Canada. The
orphan clause issue is related to the Canada Labour Code.
First, I find it unfortunate that this bill got so little
attention. Then, what really distressed me was the fact that
the Minister of Labour, present in this House, did not even
respond. She did not even dare to rise and say what she really
thought or at the very least give her opinions, even if they
differed. We could accept that.
What we cannot accept is having people say nothing because they
are afraid, or for whatever reason, perhaps because they do not
consider the matter important enough.
Tabling a bill involves a whole procedure. It takes a lot of
time to move it from A to B or to C. It is a long and difficult
process, worthy of the importance due it. What I saw today was
a shrug of the government shoulders meaning forget that.
I was not surprised by the reaction of my colleague in the
Reform Party. I know that, nothing to do with unions and
employee and employer relations, excites them—and I choose my
words to be kind. So, I am not surprised by their reaction.
On the other hand, I am very happy that my colleague from the
NDP and my colleague from the Progressive Conservative Party
understood the importance of reacting at this point. A reaction
is vital, because there has long been discussion of
discriminatory clauses. The government has long had its head in
the sand and done absolutely nothing in this matter. It is time
to move.
There are a lot of young people in the labour market who want to
join big companies or the public service and who will not enjoy
the same rights as their elders. Their education alone has put
them in debt over their head.
Nowadays, they are given jobs in areas where they will be
penalized by discriminatory clauses that will prevent them from
progressing as fast as their elders.
Today, one out of four children lives below the poverty line. I
believe it is time to open our eyes. We have huge budget
surpluses, a projected $25.3 billion, but we are unable to
provide fair working conditions for our young people. The
minister could act immediately, but of course, she will not. As
a matter of fact, she did not even dare to speak on the bill
although she was here.
It is time we give our young people working conditions equal to
their elders by giving them as good a career start as others
enjoyed in their youth.
Have we ever thought how rotten the atmosphere must be in a
firm, a big company where there are dissimilar pay levels and
working conditions?
This is utterly unacceptable nowadays. If the minister really
wanted to make a difference, first she would have risen in the
House today to at least face the music, and second, the Liberals
would not have played politics with such an important piece of
legislation as this bill on discriminatory clauses.
The Deputy Speaker: The time provided for the consideration of
Private Members' Business has now expired and the order is
dropped from the order paper.
It being 2.30, the House stands adjourned until Monday next at
11 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 2.30 p.m.)