36th Parliament, 2nd Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 50
CONTENTS
Wednesday, February 16, 2000
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| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| LITHUANIAN INDEPENDENCE DAY
|
| Ms. Sarmite Bulte |
| FARMERS
|
| Mr. David Chatters |
| UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL
|
| Mr. Ted McWhinney |
| THE LATE J. ANGUS MACLEAN
|
| Mr. Joe McGuire |
| BIOSPHERE RESERVES
|
| Hon. Charles Caccia |
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| FARMERS
|
| Mr. Jay Hill |
| NATIONAL UNITY
|
| Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain |
| LABELLING OF TRANSGENIC FOODS
|
| Ms. Hélène Alarie |
| AUTOMATION TOOLING SYSTEMS
|
| Mr. Janko Peric |
| TAXATION
|
| Mr. Charlie Penson |
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| HEALTH SYSTEM
|
| Mr. Marcel Proulx |
| ACADEMY AWARD NOMINATIONS
|
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
| BILL C-20
|
| Mrs. Francine Lalonde |
| CANADIAN ECONOMY
|
| Mr. Claude Drouin |
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
| Ms. Angela Vautour |
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| MEMBER FOR BRANT
|
| Mr. Paul Bonwick |
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
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| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Eric Lowther |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Eric Lowther |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
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| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
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| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Chuck Strahl |
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| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Chuck Strahl |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Paul Crête |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Paul Crête |
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| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
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| Hon. Jane Stewart |
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| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Jay Hill |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Jay Hill |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| HEALTH SERVICES
|
| Mr. Réal Ménard |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
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| CHECHNYA
|
| Ms. Jean Augustine |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Ms. Val Meredith |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Ms. Val Meredith |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| GASOLINE PRICES
|
| Mr. John Solomon |
| Hon. John Manley |
| Mr. John Solomon |
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| Hon. John Manley |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Jean Dubé |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Jean Dubé |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| PRESENCE IN GALLERY
|
| The Speaker |
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| POINTS OF ORDER
|
| Business of the House
|
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| Question Period
|
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
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| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
| Mr. Rey D. Pagtakhan |
| Mr. Chuck Strahl |
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| Ms. Marlene Catterall |
| Mr. Jay Hill |
| Mr. Pierre de Savoye |
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
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| Mr. René Laurin |
| Mr. Ovid L. Jackson |
| The Speaker |
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| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
| GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Health
|
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
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| SALES TAX AND EXCISE TAX AMENDMENTS ACT, 1999
|
| Bill C-24. Introduction and first reading
|
| Hon. Ralph E. Goodale |
| INCOME TAX AMENDMENTS ACT, 1999
|
| Bill C-25. Introduction and first reading
|
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
| INCOME TAX ACT
|
| Bill C-429. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
| CANADA HEALTH ACT
|
| Bill C-430. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Jim Gouk |
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| INDIAN ACT
|
| Bill C-431. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
| RAOUL WALLENBERG DAY ACT
|
| Bill C-432. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Clifford Lincoln |
| INCOME TAX CONVENTIONS IMPLEMENTATION ACT, 1999
|
| Bill S-3. First reading
|
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
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| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Library of Parliament
|
| Mr. Raymond Lavigne |
| Scrutiny of Regulations
|
| Motion for concurrence
|
| Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
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(Division 686)
| Motion agreed to
|
1630
| PETITIONS
|
| Canada Post Corporation
|
| Mr. Jim Gouk |
| National Highways
|
| Mr. Jim Gouk |
| Genetically Modified Foods
|
| Mr. Jim Gouk |
| Child Pornography
|
| Mr. Jim Gouk |
| Gasoline
|
| Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur |
| Child Poverty
|
| Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur |
| New Identities Program
|
| Mr. Jay Hill |
| Genetic Engineering
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
1635
| Canada Post Corporation
|
| Mr. Reed Elley |
| Genetically Modified Foods
|
| Mr. Reed Elley |
| Child Poverty
|
| Mr. Scott Brison |
| Children
|
| Ms. Jean Augustine |
| Abolition of Nuclear Weapons
|
| Ms. Jean Augustine |
| Crimes Against Humanity
|
| Ms. Jean Augustine |
| Cruelty to Animals
|
| Ms. Jean Augustine |
| Equality
|
| Mr. Peter Goldring |
| Child Poverty
|
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
| Immigration
|
| Mr. Ted White |
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| Child Poverty
|
| Mr. Rick Casson |
| Taxation
|
| Mr. Rick Casson |
| Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
| Child Pornography
|
| Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
| Immigration
|
| Mr. Bob Mills |
| Child Poverty
|
| Mr. Bob Mills |
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| Hon. Martin Cauchon |
| Hon. David Anderson |
| Hon. David Anderson |
| Mr. Stan Dromisky |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| REQUEST FOR EMERGENCY DEBATE
|
| Economy of Cape Breton
|
| Mr. Peter Mancini |
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| The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault) |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| CAPE BRETON DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION DIVESTITURE
|
| Bill C-11. Second reading
|
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
1650
1655
| Mr. Alex Shepherd |
| Mr. Grant McNally |
1700
| Mr. Hec Clouthier |
| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
1705
1710
1715
| Mr. Brent St. Denis |
1720
| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
| Mrs. Michelle Dockrill |
1725
| Mr. Peter Mancini |
| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
| AUDITOR GENERAL ACT
|
| Bill C-203. Second reading
|
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
1730
1735
1740
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
1745
1750
| Ms. Louise Hardy |
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| Suspension of Sitting
|
1815
| Sitting resumed
|
1820
| Mr. Gilles Bernier |
1825
1830
| Ms. Bonnie Brown |
1835
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
1840
| ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
|
| Health
|
| Ms. Sarmite Bulte |
1845
| Mr. Yvon Charbonneau |
| Gasoline prices
|
| Mr. Guy St-Julien |
1850
| Ms. Bonnie Brown |
| Employment Insurance
|
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
1855
| Ms. Bonnie Brown |
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 50
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Wednesday, February 16, 2000
The House met at 2 p.m.
Prayers
1400
The Speaker: As is our practice on Wednesday we will now
sing O Canada, and we will be led by the hon. member for
Etobicoke—Lakeshore.
[Editor's Note: Members sang the national anthem]
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
LITHUANIAN INDEPENDENCE DAY
Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parkdale—High Park, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, today the people of Lithuania and Lithuanian Canadians
are celebrating the occasion of the 82nd anniversary of the
Declaration of Independence.
Canada has always had a very positive relationship with
Lithuania. This is partly due to our steadfast refusal to
recognize the Soviet occupation of the Baltic states and also our
rapid recognition of re-independence in 1990.
Canada's active Lithuania Canadian community has also greatly
contributed to fostering exchanges and maintaining the friendship
between our countries. The cultural and diplomatic ties between
our countries have been fostered and strengthened over time
through the twinning of cities, military co-operation through
NATO's partnership for peace, as well as trade investment
initiatives such as the Baltic express mission in 1998. The
government is currently planning a follow-up Baltic express
mission which will take place in September of this year.
I would like to offer my congratulations to President Adamkus,
the Lithuanian parliament and to the people of Lithuania on this
momentous occasion.
* * *
FARMERS
Mr. David Chatters (Athabasca, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, for
months now I have had farmers from my riding of Athabasca coming
to me to tell me how they are suffering. Alberta farmers are
being crushed under a burden of debt and non-existent profits due
to crop failures, high input costs and low commodity prices.
Many of the municipalities in the province of Alberta have
declared their regions disaster areas, and life is not getting
any easier for our farmers since this government is unwilling to
provide them with any substantive relief or assistance.
I have been trying my best to help our farmers, but now I
realize that what I should have been telling them all these
months was, instead of lobbying the agriculture minister for
assistance, they should have sent in bogus applications to the
Minister of Human Resources Development. No doubt they would
have received more money than they could ever have hoped for.
When I go back to the farmers to give them an update I can tell
them that the reason they have not received any real assistance
is that this government was too busy losing over a billion
dollars to worry about western farmers.
* * *
UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL
Mr. Ted McWhinney (Vancouver Quadra, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
as one of the 10 non-permanent member states currently elected to
the United Nations Security Council for a two-year term, Canada
has taken concrete steps to increase the transparency and
openness of the council sessions and procedures by providing
regular updates to non-members of the security council—170-plus
states at any time—posting regular information about the
security council and its activities on our Ministry of Foreign
Affairs and International Trade website, and advocating the
opening up of council meetings to non-member countries.
Through these initiatives we are working actively to ensure that
the concerns of all countries are heard at the United Nations
before one of its key parliamentary institutions.
* * *
THE LATE J. ANGUS MACLEAN
Mr. Joe McGuire (Egmont, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Prince
Edward Island and Canada have lost one of their most
distinguished citizens. J. Angus MacLean, a long-time member of
the House and a former premier of P.E.I., died yesterday.
The man everyone knew as Angus served our province as opposition
leader from 1976 to 1979. He was premier from 1979 to 1981. He
retired from leadership but continued to serve his constituents
as their MLA for another year.
Prior to his tour of provincial duty, Angus was one of the
members of parliament for the dual riding of Queens in Prince
Edward Island, which became the riding of Malpeque in 1966. He
served in the House in a most distinguished fashion for 25 years.
During that period Angus was Minister of Fisheries from 1957 to
1963.
Born on a small farm in 1914, Angus never lost his affinity for
the rural way of life. He left the island to serve his country
in World War II in 1939. His aircraft was shot down, he spent 10
weeks behind enemy lines and finally made his escape to safety.
Decorated for his heroics with the RCAF during the war, Angus
returned home to his beloved province and a life of public
service.
A man of principle, Angus drew respect from people of every
political stripe. His common sense approach and sense of fair
play endeared him to all. His droll sense of humour also served
him well.
* * *
BIOSPHERE RESERVES
Hon. Charles Caccia (Davenport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Canada now has eight biosphere reserves. Six are located in
Quebec, Alberta, Ontario and Manitoba. There are two new
reserves, which are Clayoquot Sound in British Columbia and
Redberry Lake in Saskatchewan. They are now designated as
international biosphere reserves under the UNESCO's Man and the
Biosphere Program.
1405
This is a great victory for the communities involved, the
Western Canada Wilderness Committee and the Friends of Clayoquot
Sound, as well as the Nuu-chah-nulth Central Region First Nation.
They all deserve special recognition for their dedication and
work which led to the nomination of the Clayoquot Sound Biosphere
Reserve.
The Minister of Canadian Heritage and the Minister of the
Environment also should be recognized for their support for this
fine initiative.
* * *
FARMERS
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, yesterday I spoke to Nick Parsons on his cellphone.
Nick, a farmer in my riding, is into the second week of his
combine odyssey from Farmington to Ottawa aboard “Prairie
Belle”, his big red combine.
Nick hopes to open the eyes of the Prime Minister to the plight
of Canada's farmers. According to Nick, “If the Prime Minister
won't stand up for farmers, he should step aside for someone who
will”.
When I spoke to Nick he was having coffee with farmers at a
Massey dealership in Watrous before heading for Yorkton,
Saskatchewan. He described his trip as tears and fears, a very
emotional journey.
On Monday a priest stopped Nick's combine to talk about his
fears regarding farmers in his parish on the verge of committing
suicide. At the end of their conversation the priest reached
into his wallet and donated $20 to Nick's survival of the family
farm trust fund.
I commend Nick on his monumental journey and encourage Canadians
to give him a supportive call at area code 250, 784-4677.
Keep her between the ditches, Nick.
* * *
NATIONAL UNITY
Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain (Guelph—Wellington, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am very proud to be Canadian. I believe that Canada
is the best country in the world in which to live and I am
determined to see it remain united.
My love for my country is why I am also very proud to support
Bill C-20, the clarity act. On an issue as important as national
unity we cannot let our judgment be clouded. The question must
be clear and the majority must also be clear. Anything less
would be unfair to all Canadians, past, present and future.
Yesterday was flag day. I was proud to see people in
Guelph—Wellington and across Canada show their patriotism and
commitment to making this country work. As the saying goes,
something worth having is worth fighting for, and our country is
definitely worth fighting for.
* * *
[Translation]
LABELLING OF TRANSGENIC FOODS
Ms. Hélène Alarie (Louis-Hébert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, on January 29,
a protocol on biosafety was adopted in Montreal.
Despite the efforts of Canada and its buddies in the Miami group
to limit the scope of this protocol, it now allows a country to
ban importation of a genetically modified product if it feels
there is not sufficient scientific proof of its safety. It also
sets rules for shipping, requiring cargoes containing GMOs to be
identified. The protocol left the issue of labelling of
transgenic foods unresolved, however.
The Canadian government cannot continue to do nothing on this
issue until the protocol is ratified and implemented. It must
respect the rights and wishes of consumers to know what they are
eating and to choose accordingly, by moving quickly to require
the labelling of all foods containing genetically modified
organisms.
* * *
[English]
AUTOMATION TOOLING SYSTEMS
Mr. Janko Peric (Cambridge, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Automation Tooling Systems, a world-class high tech company in my
riding of Cambridge, yesterday announced a multimillion dollar
expansion and the creation of 300 to 400 new jobs.
ATS operates an automation systems plant, a metal components
plant and recently made a breakthrough in the health care
industry. This successful company employs close to 3,000 people
worldwide. Half of its employees work in Cambridge and
Kitchener.
I would like to congratulate the management and employees of ATS
for their ongoing success in the new economy.
* * *
TAXATION
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, yes,
Virginia, there is a brain drain and overtaxation is to blame.
Hurrah, the industry minister has finally acknowledged the role
that high corporate taxes play in driving our best and brightest
out of Canada. But what is he going to do about it?
Witness after witness appearing before the industry committee's
productivity study have called for lower corporate and personal
income tax rates. Leading economists, such as Pierre Fortin,
have said that the answer to Canada's declining standard of
living is to cut taxes and pay down debt. It is very simple:
cut taxes and pay down debt.
Clearly it is time for the minister to stand for Canada. It is
time for him to put his money where his mouth is and deliver real
tax cuts on budget day.
* * *
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[Translation]
HEALTH SYSTEM
Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Canadians are
very much attached to their public and universal health system.
It is the responsibility of the Canadian government to ensure
that the five principles for health care set out in the Canada
Health Act are respected. These are: accessibility,
portability, universality, public administration and public
funding.
In the 1999 budget, the Government of Canada earmarked $11.5
billion over five years for strengthening and modernizing our
health system.
In that context, the Liberal government calls for the
collaborative efforts of all of the Canadian provinces in order
to provide the best possible services throughout the country.
With a united effort we are going to improve health services, in
the interests of enhancing the quality of life in all of the
regions of Canada.
* * *
[English]
ACADEMY AWARD NOMINATIONS
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, it is Academy Award nomination time again. There are
some Oscar nominees who have been overlooked by the academy, so
we offer them to you today.
Best actor: The Prime Minister. There is no doubt about it.
For seven years he has been cutting health care and acting like
he is not.
Best makeup: The Canadian alliance or the Reform Party, or
whatever they are calling it. Every Canadian knows it is the
same old Reform underneath, no matter how many times they change
their name.
Best foreign language film: This would be the Reform Party too.
Canadians consistently say their priority is health care, but
Reform thinks it is tax cuts for the rich, which is foreign to
anyone who is staying in a hospital.
Best performance in a musical: The health minister for his
question period renditions of the same old tune “I'm saving
medicare”.
Best supporting actor: The finance minister for his portrayal
of Scrooge in the Liberal government's budget series.
Finally, best lead in a horror feature: Ralph Klein for
“Destroying Medicare III—The Privatization Bill”.
* * *
[Translation]
BILL C-20
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, eight years
ago, on February 8, the foreign affairs ministers of the 12
members of the EU signed a new monetary, economic and political
partnership agreement. This was the Maastricht agreement, the
new Europe.
Then the acceptance or rejection of this agreement was put to a
vote in referendums in these countries. In all instances, the
rule of absolute majority applied.
What a contrast to Bill C-20, which, in addition to failing to
recognize the rule of absolute majority, denies Quebecers the
right to ask their government to negotiate a new economic and
political partnership agreement with Canada.
While Europe is built on openness, equality of peoples and
respect for the rules of democracy, the federal government is
trying to restrict democracy and to deny the equality of peoples
in order to preserve the status quo.
Hats off to Europe of the people and democracy and shame on the
federal government of Canada.
* * *
CANADIAN ECONOMY
Mr. Claude Drouin (Beauce, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on scrutiny, the
Liberal government's economic performance is impressive.
Thanks to the concerted efforts of Canadians, our economy is the
best it has been in over ten years. The economic indicators
bear witness to its good health.
In 1999, there were 427,000 new jobs in the country. That
represents a 3% increase over 1998. The Liberals have created
some 1.9 million jobs since they took office in 1993.
The unemployment rate was 11.4% in 1993. It is now at 6.8%,
something not seen since April 1976, nearly a quarter of a
century ago. The unemployment rate is therefore 4.6% lower than
it was when we took office.
The figures, not to mention the elimination of the $42 billion
deficit, amply prove the statement that the Liberal government
works for Canadians.
* * *
[English]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Ms. Angela Vautour (Beauséjour—Petitcodiac, PC): Mr.
Speaker, no action has yet been taken by the department of HRDC
to help the growing crisis in Atlantic Canada among seasonal
workers called gappers.
Since the last cuts to the EI program seasonal workers have been
unable to make it from season to season without running out of
benefits for weeks or even months.
Unfair economic zoning has also contributed to this growing
crisis.
What is the government's plan of action to help these seasonal
workers make it through these very difficult times?
The pain and suffering can no longer be ignored by the
government. How can the government deny money to seasonal
workers in need, and give millions of dollars to Wal-Mart and
Vidéotron?
Until the government fixes the problem it has created it must
recognize the hardship these people are facing.
1415
Again I ask what is the minister's plan of action, or does she
simply not have one? The workers living in seasonal communities
are waiting for answers and a solution to the problem they sadly
face year after year.
* * *
MEMBER FOR BRANT
Mr. Paul Bonwick (Simcoe—Grey, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, today
I pay tribute to one of parliament's most hard working and
conscientious members. I am referring to the member from Brant,
Ontario, who is the Minister of Human Resources Development.
Since her constituents first elected her in 1993 she has been a
role model, a leader and a respected parliamentarian of whom all
Canadians can be proud.
For the past two years I had the pleasure of chairing a regional
caucus of which the minister was an active member. Her passion
and caring for all Canadians are unparalleled. She truly is a
parliamentarian who cares about her country. She has never
wavered from her dedication and concerned interest in serving
Canada to the best of her abilities.
On behalf of the constituents of Simcoe—Grey, and indeed all
Canadians who support her, I commend the minister for her
excellent work and tell her to keep up the good work.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Her office does
write a good Standing Order 31. Mr. Speaker, listen to this
familiar story. A letter was sent to urge approval of a
government grant even before anyone applied. We have seen that
pattern before. This one came from the Prime Minister's Office
and he lobbied Canada economic development for a fountain in his
own riding.
Finally a month later the application form actually showed up.
The Prime Minister broke the rules and now just last week we saw
the announcement, with a big fanfare and a big press release,
about $200,000 going to Heritage Shawinigan.
Why is the letterhead of the Prime Minister and the Prime
Minister's Office a legal application form for grants now?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the city of Shawinigan and the city of Shawinigan-Sud
have been working on this file for years. It is nothing new.
When there is a project in my riding I do like Reform Party
members do. I support projects in my riding that help to create
jobs and make the area very attractive.
When my caucus visited Shawinigan a year ago with a lot of our
friends from the press they found that Shawinigan is much more
attractive than it was before.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): I dare say,
Mr. Speaker, I am sure it is a lovely fountain. There we are
with government slush funds draining into government slush funds,
which is something else, and finally getting sucked into the Jane
drain at the bottom.
There were Liberal demands attached to this. First, the
minister responsible must be invited to the announcement and,
second, the Government of Canada must get the last word at the
press conference.
This is not about jobs. It is not about fountains. Why is it
that the Prime Minister's Office and his letterhead are now the
official application form for grants? Why would that be?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, long before the letter there was an application started
by the city of Shawinigan and after that the city of
Shawinigan-Sud and so on. This project involves the people of
Shawinigan, the Historical Society of Shawinigan and I have
helped them of course.
Yes, it is very important in every riding of Canada that the
people of the ridings know, when there is a subvention coming
from the taxpayers of Canada, that the money is coming from the
taxpayers of Canada, particularly in areas where some people want
to quit Canada because sometimes they do not know the good that
this government is doing for its citizens.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
surely it is absolute blackmail to try to pay the people of
Quebec to keep them in Canada.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
1420
The Speaker: Order, please. I would ask the hon. member
not to use the word blackmail.
Miss Deborah Grey: Mr. Speaker, insults do not impress
people. The Prime Minister's Office demanded funds for a
fountain. The fountain may be lovely but they had not even
applied for any money. No one had even applied for that.
Now, in the middle of this huge boondoggle where we have seen
all kinds of arrogance, wastage of money and misspending, a
quarter of a million bucks was just announced last week for this
fountain. When the Prime Minister brings up taxpayers' money,
why is it he keeps thumbing his nose at these taxpayers?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, when I was re-elected as a member of parliament and came
back with this government in 1993 we had 11.5% unemployment in
Canada. It is down now to 6.8%.
The result is that the program is helping: 1.9 million new jobs
have been created in bit more than six years and unemployment is
down from 11% to 6%. I understand when I see the Leader of the
Opposition travelling the land telling everybody that the Reform
Party has no future.
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
Prime Minister can try to claim innocence all he wants, but the
fact remains that he has been caught playing fast and loose with
the rules again. We know the Prime Minister twisted the arms of
bureaucrats to get crooked loans for hoteliers—
The Speaker: I ask the hon. member to withdraw the word
crooked.
Mr. Eric Lowther: I withdraw.
The Speaker: I ask the hon. member to go to his question.
Mr. Eric Lowther: Mr. Speaker, he knew from his
experience that these bureaucrats would not say no. Why does the
Prime Minister consistently break the rules and funnel other
taxpayers' dollars into his riding?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the riding of Saint-Maurice is made up of citizens of
Canada who are entitled to exactly the same programs as anybody
else. All the rules are respected. The grants are analyzed by
all the bureaucrats.
I am happy that one of the things they are doing, which is very
good for me personally, is that they are attacking me because I
do my job. I want the unemployment level in my area someday to
be as low as that of any city in Alberta.
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the situation here is that the Prime Minister does not follow the
rules. The Prime Minister argues that he demands high standards
for his ministers, but he makes a point of personally interfering
with their portfolios.
His ministers do not mind, though. It means they do not have to
bother with those annoying little rules either. The human
resources minister has bungled $1 billion as a result.
Is the Prime Minister defending the human resources minister
because he does not care about taxpayers' money or is he guilty
of the very same thing himself?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we are very careful with the money of Canadian people,
but we are not like the Reform Party. We think the government
has a role for the people who very seriously want to find jobs.
We know very well what the Reform Party will do. It will scrap
all these programs that are helping those who need it in Canada
to give a tax break to the rich guy they want to support.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
current HRDC fiasco takes us back to the Corbeil affair, in
which a political adviser obtained from the Department of Human
Resources Development a list of grant applications which,
according to the minister in charge at the time, was not
confidential.
1425
Can the minister tell us today how it is that a political
organizer from the Liberal Party came to be in possession of
lists of grant applications when it is so hard for members to
obtain documents concerning projects that were approved?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the particular case the hon. member makes
reference to was handled appropriately at the time. It was
referred to the RCMP and it has been dealt with by them.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I
know what happened. I do not wish to know whether he pleaded
guilty or whether the RCMP did its job. I wish to know whether
the minister herself did her job and whether she can reply to us
today.
How is it that it was so easy for a Liberal organizer to obtain
such lists, when for the life of them members cannot obtain all
the documents relevant to the projects that were approved?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have answered on a particular
circumstance, but the hon. member asked if this minister is doing
her job. I am doing my job.
I took the information provided by this audit seriously. I have
worked with my department and those outside to create a plan that
would fix this problem. That is what Canadians want and that is
what will be done.
[Translation]
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it is
becoming very difficult to have a clear picture, when the
information in the possession of Human Resources Development
Canada is being given to us piecemeal, and members of parliament
are reduced to getting their information through the Access to
Information Act.
Can the minister explain to us how she can reconcile the orders
she gave to her staff to make departmental information public
with the fact that MPs are reduced to relying on the Access to
Information Act to get hold of more credible information?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I have said at committee and as I have
said in the House, we are working with the department to see if
indeed we can pull the information together in an effective way
so it can be used by members of parliament.
I want to remind the House that the programs we have are not
necessarily kept by riding. They are focused on their intent:
helping young people, helping Canadians with disabilities,
helping those who want to find work.
As I have said, we are working to try to see if we can provide
new and useful information to members of parliament, and as it is
available we will do so.
[Translation]
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have
an important question to ask of the minister: can she confirm to
this House that Liberal MPs have the same information as
opposition MPs, and that they have no more than we have?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I have said to the House and as I have
said to the committee, they asked for information. There have
been motions passed by the committee for information. We are
working to be able to satisfy those interests and to the best of
our ability we will do that.
* * *
AGRICULTURE
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Prime Minister. Yesterday the Prime Minister
took the time to wrap himself in the Canadian flag. I wonder if
the Prime Minister will take the time today to concern himself
with the plight of farm families on the prairies.
When there was flooding in the Saguenay, Canadians pulled
together. When there were ice storms in Quebec and Ontario,
Canadians pulled together. I wonder whether in that same spirit
and before the budget the Prime Minister will finally go to the
prairies to see for himself the desperation on family farms on
the prairies.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we did the same thing in Manitoba when there was a big
flood. In fact we gave a billion dollars over two years a few
weeks ago in order to help that situation.
1430
I said that if there is a very specific problem that is
important to any provincial government and if they want to
contribute to a special program, we will contribute to the
special program. But they have the responsibility to say to the
federal government to take it over. We have done it to the tune
of $1 billion and the money will be available to the farmers for
their planting through the program. The program—
The Speaker: The hon. leader of the New Democratic Party.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, all of
the political parties in Saskatchewan, including the Liberal
Party, agree that the federal government must take the lead. The
federal government must take the next step.
If the Prime Minister thinks that the federal government's
response to the prairie farm crisis has been adequate, then he
clearly does not understand the depth of the crisis. That is why
the Prime Minister needs to go to the prairies and see for
himself before the budget. Why—
The Speaker: The hon. Prime Minister.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we are aware that there is a serious problem. We have
acted.
The federal government is providing 60% of the money that is
available at this moment to resolve this difficulty. It is a
very difficult problem. We have made a decision that will permit
the farmers to have access to money early so they can have the
money for the seeding season. The program is in place. If the
provincial governments think they need something else or they
want a different program, I already said that if they want to put
money—
The Speaker: The hon. member for
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough.
* * *
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, two companies, RMH Teleservices and Duchess Foods,
moved to the HRDC minister's riding and between them received $2
million of taxpayers' money. Duchess Foods was lured into the
minister's riding from the riding of her colleague from Hamilton
Mountain at a cost of $370,000.
How can the minister justify this flagrant misuse of public
money?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am very proud to stand in my place as
the member of parliament for Brant to say that the transitional
jobs fund and the Canada jobs fund have made a difference in
providing opportunities for employment for the people of my
riding. In both of these cases men and women who have not had the
opportunity to work for years are now employed. That is what
these programs were intended to do.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I do not know why she would be proud to take jobs
from her colleague's riding.
The minister has quoted unemployment statistics for her riding
in 1995. Surely similar information should be available to all
MPs, not just Liberal MPs. When several of our MPs called their
local HRDC offices, they found that this information is only
available by economic region. In 1995 the unemployment rate in
the minister's riding was 8%. How then did she qualify for TJF
funding? Why did the minister get preferential treatment?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, indeed the statistics as compiled by
Statistics Canada were available for my riding and that is the
information that was used.
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it
does seem that we have seen this movie before. The Prime
Minister and his office sent a letter to the bureaucrats asking
for money but of course there is no application actually on file.
What happens? The bureaucrats write back a hurried memo saying
that while it is outside the rules, the Prime Minister asked for
it so they had better get moving.
The last time he wanted money was for a hotel in his riding. We
remember that deal. He got the grant even though no application
was ever found. This time it is a $200,000 fountain in
Shawinigan.
Why is there one set of rules for the Prime Minister and his
cabinet and another set of rules for the rest of Canadians?
1435
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, this is a project. Reform members should do their
homework. It is not with the department of human resources but
with regional development agency for Quebec.
This project is financed like the infrastructure project was,
partly by the federal government, partly by the provincial
government and partly by the municipal government. It is a joint
venture. The three levels of government made an agreement. That
is why the project exists. It is not a unilateral decision by
the government. It is a joint venture by the three levels of
government which are working together to make sure the people of
that region can enjoy jobs like anywhere else in the country.
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
Prime Minister makes my point. It does not matter which
department. This problem goes right to the Prime Minister's
office and throughout the government. It is no wonder the HRDC
minister has such a problem in her department. When she sets up
illegal trust funds there is no reaction over there—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. Stay away from the word illegal,
please.
Mr. Chuck Strahl: Mr. Speaker, she uses public money to
lure jobs from other people's ridings and ignores audits not only
in her own department but in the last department she ran. Why
does she do that? Because she does not get any problem from the
Prime Minister. He says that this kind of stuff is okay. In
fact he bends the rules in his own riding. Why is there one set
of rules for the Prime Minister and the front bench while the
rest of Canadians have to play by the rules every single time?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the rules apply to everybody on both sides of the House.
They are always asking questions. I know why their leader is
struggling and trying to get rid of what is known as the Reform
Party and starting a new one.
In every riding we can make applications and receive grants when
we qualify, ministers and members on both sides of the aisle. In
fact, with some of these funds, very often more money goes to the
ridings of the opposition than to the ridings of the government
side.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the minister said in this House
that the unemployment rate used for the transitional jobs fund
was the 1995 rate and that the rate for the Canada jobs fund was
the 1997 rate.
How does the minister explain that the monthly rate is used for
the unemployed and a rate outdated by several years is used for
grants to business?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the program criteria have to be based on
something and in this case it was 1995—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Human Resources
Development.
Hon. Jane Stewart: Mr. Speaker, as I said, the program
criteria for the transitional jobs fund were based on employment
statistics for 1995. The program criteria for the Canada jobs
fund were based on statistics for 1997. It is the same for
ridings on this side of the House as it is for ridings on that
side.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, how does the minister explain the questionable
efficiency of her department in the frantic rush to hunt down
the unemployed, when shamelessly little attention is given to
the administrative follow-up of grants to business?
1440
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the programs are working. They are
working in our ridings. They are working in the ridings of the
Bloc members. It is thanks to programs like the transitional
jobs fund, like the Canada jobs—
Mr. Yvan Loubier: Why not define?
The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Human Resources
Development.
Hon. Jane Stewart: Mr. Speaker, the criteria applied are
the same in ridings whether they be opposition ridings or
government ridings.
The transitional jobs fund came into vogue in 1995 with the
changes to the Employment Insurance Act. It transitioned itself
into the Canada jobs fund in 1997 and the rules are there.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, we could pursue that for sure but I would really like to
know about the transitional jobs fund and why the minister is
making it into the transfer of jobs funds. She used it to lure
Duchess Foods from Hamilton into her own riding, a whole distance
of 30 kilometres by the way, not to create jobs but to bolster
the minister's image.
The only reason the company moved was because the minister
dangled $370,000 in front of it. How could this possibly benefit
Canadians who are footing the bill?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I say again that I am very proud of the
investment that went to this company and ensured that 156
citizens of my community who were not working before now have
employment.
The real issue here is that day after day the Reform Party
stands up and undermines the effect of the transitional jobs fund
and the Canada jobs fund, but day after day I received phone
calls from the offices of individual members and letters from the
offices of individual members. The Reform Party cannot suck and
blow at the same time.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay: What did she say? We did not get
the translation.
The Speaker: Sometimes some words are more
difficult to translate than others, so we should stay away from
it.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the minister should not be surprised that the opposition
is calling her office to find out why she is mismanaging
Canadians' money. And speaking of—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: The hon. member may begin her question.
1445
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: Speaking of sucking and blowing,
Mr. Speaker, this minister is very good at—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: We are really not getting anywhere on both
sides. I would ask members to please listen to the questions and
then to the answers. I ask the hon. member to please go directly
to her question.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: Mr. Speaker, this minister seems
awfully good at sucking jobs from other ridings into her own with
public money. She lured Duchess Foods and she lured an
international call centre from Sarnia into her riding.
My question is very simple. Why should other Canadians be taxed
to feed this minister's political ego?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the programs are working in my riding and
I am very glad, as are the members and constituents of the riding
of Brant.
The hon. member suggests that members of the Reform Party are
phoning to ask about the internal audit, which they are not. They
appreciate, as does the hon. member, that we have a plan that is
going to work.
What they are calling about are programs like the one on my desk
right now from the riding of Skeena. The hon. member for Skeena
wrote last fall saying “As member of parliament for Skeena, I
wish to extend my support for Prince Rupert Custom Processors
Limited”. The member went on to say that the creation of a
minimum of 70 full time new jobs—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Quebec.
1450
[Translation]
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the minister
took us by surprise with her statement that a computer problem
could have left the impression that a number of projects were
approved several months after receiving grants.
I would like the minister to explain how her department and its
computer system can be so adept at going after unemployed
workers and so ham-handed when a grant approval process involving
billions of dollars is involved?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on this particular issue that has been
raised in the House with regard to the internal audit, we are
taking it seriously. We have a plan of action that is now being
implemented. The auditor general says it is going to work. As
the minister, I will ensure that the problem gets fixed.
[Translation]
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, when the
minister was telling us how her department had been in the dark
ages as far as management was concerned, was she referring to
computer problems, administrative methods, directives from the
then deputy minister, Mel Cappe, directives from the then
minister, who is now the Minister for International Trade, or
all of the above?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the work and investments made by the
Department of Human Resources Development Canada are
extraordinarily important across the country, whether they be
grants and contributions, support for children and young people,
skills development, employment insurance or old age security.
Those are incredibly important and valuable investments that
Canadians make on our behalf.
My job is to ensure that the foundation of our administration is
strong. With the six point plan and our focused attack on this
issue, we will ensure that is done.
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, when the Minister of Human Resources Development was
busy with Indian Affairs and Northern Development, she knew about
problems with millions of dollars that were funnelled from HRDC
to the Metis Provincial Council of B.C. In fact she received
over 50 complaints from the Metis regarding, guess what, missing
funds, sloppy bookkeeping, political interference and possible
conflicts of interests.
What did the minister do? She did nothing. What has she done
about this since she became minister of HRDC? She has done
nothing.
Why does the minister do nothing about complaints, warnings and
audits until they receive media exposure?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, again the hon. member is wrong. In
reference to this issue, a third party audit was done by
Consulting and Audit Canada. We are working with the Metis
nation to improve the relationship we have with them and to deal
with the issues that have been brought forward on that account.
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I am glad the minister mentioned the audit because the
audit of the Metis program stated “internal policies, procedures
and monitoring were either not in place or not being followed”,
referring to things such as nepotism, missing documents, missing
applications. Does that sound familiar? Two audits, two
programs, same minister. Does the House see a pattern here?
With her disastrous track record, why does the minister not just
admit that she is way out of her league and resign?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I categorically reject everything the
hon. member has said here.
On this side of the House, we believe that the Government of
Canada can work with individuals and organizations to make a
difference in the lives of Canadians. We will continue to stand
up for that, and I, as minister of Human Resources Development
Canada, will ensure that in the area of grants and contributions
we have an administrative practice and process in place that will
support these very important programs.
* * *
[Translation]
HEALTH SERVICES
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Prime Minister has received a letter from Dr. Pierre Gauthier,
the president of the Fédération des médecins spécialistes du
Quebec, calling on the government to abandon its plan to
increase funding for home care. Dr. Gauthier reminded him that
health is a provincial jurisdiction and that, under the
Constitution, it is up to the provinces to define their health
policies.
Is the Prime Minister going to ignore this warning from medical
specialists, just as he is continuing to ignore what the
provinces think?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is
obvious that the present state of health services is
unacceptable. The status quo is unacceptable.
We have put certain ideas on the table with a view to improving
the situation and I think that these ideas are valid both in
Quebec and elsewhere.
1455
I have invited my counterparts to a meeting in a few weeks' time
and I hope that Mrs. Marois will be there.
* * *
[English]
CHECHNYA
Ms. Jean Augustine (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, over the past few months many of my constituents, in
particular organizations like the Polish Canadian Women's
Federation, the Polish Combatants Association and the Polish
Canadian Congress, have been expressing great concern about the
human suffering in the Russian Republic of Chechnya.
Can the Minister of Foreign Affairs tell the House what Canada
is doing to end this human suffering?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, last November the Prime Minister directly raised
this question with the Russian leadership during the OSCE
meetings. Following that, the minister for CIDA announced major
humanitarian programs that would be allowed.
Two weeks ago I had the opportunity to raise directly with the
Russian foreign minister following on the Prime Minister's
position that it is important to care about the civilians in that
area, and in doing so, provide an opening for humanitarian
intervention.
I think it is also incumbent upon the Russians to provide proper
investigation of alleged atrocities in that area so that they can
really live up to their commitments under international law.
* * *
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, two weeks before the last election when
the riding of Vancouver East was still in Liberal hands, it
received a $500,000 job grant.
However, when the voters of Vancouver East tossed out their
Liberal member of parliament, they were informed that they did
not qualify for any job grant.
Could the minister tell us why this constituency qualified for
job grants when it was a Liberal riding, but was told it did not
qualify for job grants when it was an opposition riding?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am glad to confirm that the project in
the riding did create 18 jobs and did make a difference in that
very poor riding that needs assistance.
To date there have been no requests from that riding for Canada
jobs funds.
Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, since the minister's own audit said that
15% of the grants given out did not even have application forms,
why should Vancouver East be the only one that requires an
application form?
The 1996 census shows that only 13.2% of the families in the
minister's riding of Brant were considered low income, yet her
riding gets millions of dollars in job funding. By contrast, in
Vancouver East, 34.9% of families are considered low income, yet
this minister gives them not one single penny.
Why do the people in the minister's riding get millions of
dollars but the people in Vancouver East get nothing?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, since the hon. member is so interested, I
am glad to confirm that the people of Vancouver East did get
millions of dollars.
* * *
GASOLINE PRICES
Mr. John Solomon (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, gasoline and diesel prices are at record levels and home
heating oil has doubled. Consumers are being shafted by the OPEC
cartel and the big oil companies and the Liberals do nothing
about it.
Today the U.S. energy secretary ordered extra home heating oil
into New England and offered emergency aid of over $250 million
to help low income families pay their heating bills.
The industry minister found $20 million for millionaire hockey
players, but will he do anything to help consumers being gouged
by the big oil cartel, or will he allow Canadians to freeze in
the dark?
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it is very interesting to hear from a member of the New
Democratic Party from Saskatchewan, knowing the responsibility
that the provinces have, if they wish to do so, to impose
regulations on retail pricing.
The province of Prince Edward Island has chosen to do it, but in
Saskatchewan the NDP do not seem to have the will to do it.
Perhaps the hon. member might like to address the question to his
own government.
Mr. John Solomon (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, if the Liberal government believes this issue is
serious, it would call in all the provinces and all the oil
companies and hammer out a solution or lay down the law. Instead,
the minister passes the buck.
The Bank of Canada is warning that rising energy costs can push
our inflation rate over 3%, threatening everyone from families to
businesses and local school boards. Energy is the underpinning
of our economy.
1500
What is the Liberal action plan to defend our economy from OPEC
and to defend Canadians from the impact of record energy prices?
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, that was a lot of rhetoric. If the hon. member had
looked at the newspapers he might have noticed that a year and a
half ago crude prices were about $10 a barrel and today they are
quoted at $30 a barrel.
I know that the NDP believes governments are omnipotent and can
control world prices. I do not think that we can do that.
That is not to say that this is not a problem which consumers
across Canada are concerned about. It is one which we have in
fact worked on with the provinces. Provincial and federal
governments have discussed this issue together.
I think it would be helpful if the hon. member did a little
homework on this before rising in hysteria.
* * *
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Jean Dubé (Madawaska—Restigouche, PC): Mr. Speaker,
the minister of HRDC keeps referring to her riding as having
pockets of unemployment which qualify for the TJF.
I called the HRDC offices in New Brunswick and when I said
“pockets” they asked “What are you talking about?” They do
not seem to exist in all provinces—
The Speaker: I ask that members address all of their
remarks through the Chair, please.
Mr. Jean Dubé: Mr. Speaker, why was her riding given
special consideration? Why the favouritism?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, perhaps the hon. member would be
interested in knowing that another pocket of high unemployment
was found in the riding of the hon. member for Saint John. She
too got transitional jobs funds as a result of outlying high
unemployment areas in that community in which opportunities were
provided.
Mr. Jean Dubé (Madawaska—Restigouche, PC): Mr. Speaker,
on Monday the minister responsible for HRDC used selective data
for Brant to justify HRDC grants.
Let me tell the House the rest of the story for five months:
August, 11.8%; September, 11.8%; October, 10.8%; and December,
11.4% With these numbers she does not qualify.
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let me confirm that indeed the riding of
Brant did qualify according to the rules.
I again stand in my place and say that I am proud, as a member
of parliament, to have had these programs that have made a
difference in the lives of many of my constituents. I can tell
you, Mr. Speaker, that back home they know the value of
transitional jobs funds and Canada jobs funds.
* * *
PRESENCE IN GALLERY
The Speaker: I draw the attention of hon. members to
the presence in the gallery of four very distinguished visitors,
my brother speakers from the different provinces of Canada:
The Honourable Murray Scott, Speaker of the Legislative Assembly
of Nova Scotia;
The Honourable George Hickes, Speaker of the
Legislative Assembly of Manitoba;
The Honourable Ron Osika, Speaker of the Legislative Assembly
of Saskatchewan; and,
The Honourable Anthony Whitford, Speaker of the Legislative Assembly
of the Northwest Territories.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
* * *
1505
POINTS OF ORDER
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I
wish to inform the House that I am designating tomorrow, February
17, as an allotted day.
QUESTION PERIOD
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
I thought I would rise on a brief point of order related to what
has been happening in question period the last few days. I rise
partly out of concern for the whole House, but partly to make a
specific case for the smaller parties. It is a case I have made
before.
Mr. Speaker, as you know, if you have to take a lot of time
standing, waiting for order, that uses up time which would
otherwise go toward questions and answers. If we do not get to
the so-called third round, that is to say, the third opportunity
for the smaller parties, the smaller parties then lose a much
larger percentage of the time for questions that is available to
them than the Reform Party and the Bloc.
I submit empirically, and not in any partisan way, that it is
just the nature of the place, that most of the banter, the noise
and the shouting—although we contribute from time to time, the
same as the Conservatives—takes place between the government and
the two major opposition parties. In effect, we as a smaller
party are punished for behaviour to which we are only minor
contributors, if you like.
I think this accumulates day over day into a form of unfairness
which I am asking you, Mr. Speaker, to address. I am asking you
to be tougher with the House in this respect, in terms of order.
I am pleading with my fellow House leaders and fellow colleagues.
We do not need the level of racket in this place that has come to
characterize it. We cannot hear each other. There is too much
cheap hollering going on when people are trying to listen. I do
not like a lot of the answers that are given, or for that matter
a lot of the questions, but I would like to hear them. If we
cannot do that, then what is the point of being here?
I implore you, Mr. Speaker, to be tougher with members. If you
ask members not to say something and they say it, move on. Do
not stand there and plead with them for minutes and use up
minutes that belong to the smaller parties. If you ask people to
move to their question and they do not move to their question, if
the next sentence that comes out of their mouth is not in an
interrogatory form, move on. They will get the message. They
will stop doing it. I think we need less exhortation and more
punishment. That is what has to happen in the House.
I would urge you, Mr. Speaker, to consider what I have said.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I cannot help but echo the same sentiments of the
House leader of the New Democratic Party. There is a
disproportionate price that is paid by the smaller parties as a
result of the system and the process that has evolved. When
question period is cut short due to the racket, it is the two
last questioners in the House who inevitably lose their
questions.
1510
As has already been pointed out—and I think the government
House leader would support this position—there should be an
intervention on the part of the Chair because the acquiescence,
in essence, hurts parties that are not causing the problem and we
are paying a disproportionate price. To lose one question out of
a possible five or six is a huge portion of the amount of floor
time that we have in the House of Commons.
I would echo that sentiment and ask that the Chair be more
diligent in interventions if questions are not posed properly.
If time is being wasted we should move to the next party or the
next questioner.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, there is something being lost, which is the fact that if
members on the government side make a lot of noise and I, as was
the case today, am penalized because of their noise, I cannot get
my question out and I cannot make the points that I carefully
considered before even asking the question. If I am then cut off
and directed to move right to the question because of the
misdemeanour of Liberals, that is not fair. I carefully consider
what I want to put to the minister. I have a complete package
and if I am cut off because of their misdemeanour that is not
equitable.
I would ask, Mr. Speaker, that when you consider this point of
order you also consider the fact that my rights are being
interfered with inappropriately when I am cut off because of
noise from the government benches.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
I would like to make three comments on the matter we are
addressing at this time.
First of all, I must say that I feel a great deal of sympathy
with the views expressed by the NDP and Progressive Conservative
House leaders. I do feel that time wasted in this House results
in missed opportunities for questions, not just for the two
smallest opposition parties, but also for the other two
opposition parties. This is indeed most regrettable.
I would, however, like you to also take into consideration the
point of view expressed by our Reform Party colleague, who has
just said something I am in complete agreement with. As members
of the opposition, when we ask a question, we must not be taken
hostage by the lack of discipline of the Liberals, which might
result in question period being speeded up. We have to be
careful about that.
The third point I would like to raise is that, while I have
every sympathy for the point of view of the NDP House Leader, I
strongly deplore the tone in which she addressed you,
Mr. Speaker; it was cavalier to say the least.
[English]
Mr. Rey D. Pagtakhan (Winnipeg North—St. Paul, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, let me add my thoughts to the debate on this point of
order. I agree that decorum is a bulwark of democracy.
Civilized behaviour during question period enhances our image in
parliament.
Mr. Speaker, when you make a ruling and advise any member,
whether the member occupies a position of title or not, that
ruling truly must be upheld immediately. With that kind of
decision, Mr. Speaker, the Speaker's chair will earn the greater
respect of parliament and Canadians.
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
too empathize with the House leaders from both the NDP and Tory
party who have described what happens when time is wasted in
abundance.
Today during the intervention by the member from Nose Hill it
took nine minutes for the government side to quiet down long
enough for the member to get out a truncated question because of
the delaying tactics. It took nine minutes. We could sit here
as quiet as mice during that time, but if the uproar continues
over there, not only do the smaller parties, but all of us,
including Canadians, get short shrift because other good
questions get lost in the hubbub.
It is very true that sometimes when asked to go directly to a
question when a member has done nothing wrong, Mr. Speaker, you
can make the judgment call on who is creating the fuss. However,
often when someone has been interrupted two or three times, not
by any noise made on this side of the House but by standing
ovations and carrying on over there, if the ruling is delivered
“You are finished, go directly to your question”, that is not
the fault of the member asking the question, it is the fault of
the government, in this case, which chose to take up nine minutes
with general hubbub and carrying on. That is not right.
1515
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, an important point has been raised here. I do think it
is not just the responsibility of the Speaker, but it is the
responsibility of all of us in the House. I think we were all
encouraged when a time limit was put on questions and answers. It
allowed more participation in question period and it certainly
helped pick up the pace of question period. On both sides of the
House there is some fault and some correction to be taken.
Inflammatory language in questions simply stirs a response.
Perhaps that response should be more contained than it is, but I
do encourage you, Mr. Speaker, to do whatever you can.
I want to speak on behalf of Liberal members who do not usually
get their first question on until at least 2.45 p.m. We are the
ones who are most penalized if question period drags on longer.
I support some of the comments that have been made but I also
encourage all members in the House to support you, Mr. Speaker,
in trying to do your job.
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I have a brief comment about this point of order.
I commend you for extending question period today by a few
minutes. I know it is difficult for you to make that judgment
call, but perhaps that is one avenue you could choose in the
future. If the majority of the disturbances in question period
are coming from the government side, then obviously as many have
made the point, it is the opposition that primarily is penalized.
If you were to extend question period by another five or ten
minutes or whatever time they want to take up, I do not think it
would take very many days before the government side would learn
the lesson that questions will still get asked.
[Translation]
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, certainly,
when decorum is absent from our deliberations during Oral
Question Period, fewer questions are asked.
It must kept in mind, however, that the objective of question
period is not just to ask questions, but to get answers. The
public's expectation of Oral Question Period is that it will
gain a better understanding of how government and parliament
operates.
I do deplore the lack of decorum, which results in not all
questions getting asked. Unfortunately, answers are rarely
forthcoming, and I realize this is beyond your control,
Mr. Speaker, and not affected by decorum.
Please excuse me for saying what I think.
[English]
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): I rise on the same point of
order, Mr. Speaker.
I think representations to you suggesting in any way that your
demeanour has not led to expeditious handling of these matters in
the House would be totally unfounded. I think you have
demonstrated exemplary behaviour in the way you have tried to
bring order at times. I think the solution to the problem lies
with members themselves on all sides of the House.
The Speaker: I will hear three more interventions and
then I will go from there.
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Mr.
Speaker, I think we all agree that we have confidence in the
Speaker. I want to pick up on the minister's comments as well.
It is incumbent upon us as members of parliament when we are
putting the question that most of us in the Chamber are mature
enough to know what words are unparliamentary. When we choose
that type of language we should be shut off completely from
getting up and going over the question once again because it is
time delay. I think both sides of the House would agree on that.
We are under time restraints as individual members. There is a
35 second limit on our questions. Mr. Speaker, I think you have
been very, very good in enforcing that. Whether it is our party
or some other party, including the government, but when the
members use spontaneous applause and standing ovations for their
members, the stopwatch should begin. If they are on their feet
for 30 seconds, question period should be extended by 30 seconds.
I think a set of rules that will work are known to all of us,
but we have to set the rules and live by those rules. I think we
would all be supportive of that.
1520
[Translation]
Mr. René Laurin (Joliette, BQ): Mr. Speaker, if I may, I would
say I think the House would benefit from your penalizing those
who abuse your generosity by causing a ruckus.
If an opposition party causes a disturbance, you should
intervene by taking a question away from it. If you discover
that the commotion comes from the government side, they too
should be penalized by having Oral Question Period extended by
the amount of time they spent reacting to one of our questions.
I make this suggestion to resolve the problem in all humility.
[English]
Mr. Ovid L. Jackson (Bruce—Grey, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
human being is the only animal that when one word is used
inappropriately gets into all kinds of problems. That is why we
have Beauchesne's, Robert's Rules of Order and what have
you.
It is important in this House when one member is speaking that
other members are listening. For the most part I sit here very
quietly and listen to a lot of rhetoric from all sides. It is
very important for us and the Canadian people that when somebody
is speaking, other people have the courtesy to be quiet.
The Speaker: All of us would agree that in the last
two days our question periods have not been the best that we have
had in the last short while. It seems like we are all getting in
a circle and we are pointing fingers. The fact of the matter is
that we should just turn our fingers around and point them at
ourselves.
As the Speaker I could stand up and yell for order until I am
blue in the face but I am not going to do that. I am not going
to try to outshout this House of Commons. I will not do it.
We have heard interventions from every party in here. We all
agree that if we are going to get more questions in and hopefully
more answers in, we are going to have to co-operate. I would
remind you that in the last parliament when it came to question
period I was forever asking you to please shorten the questions
and the answers so we could get more questions in.
[Translation]
The House decided collectively to do something for itself. The
party leaders came to me saying “We need certain questions; they
mentioned a number”. I said “That is easy. We have 45 minutes
and there are 60 seconds in each minute. If you multiply the
two and divide by the number of questions you want to ask, you
end up with 35 seconds for the question and 35 seconds for the
answer”.
[English]
Everything went well. Why? Because it came from the House. It
came from us collectively that we could make this House function.
When there is a question posed, what possible good can it do to
heckle so we cannot even hear the question? If a person asks a
question, it is surely because that person wants to hear an
answer. I cannot control the quality of the question nor the
answer but I can now control, thanks to you because you agree,
the length of the questions.
Instead of pointing our fingers at one another, let us look at
ourselves. I am not here to lecture you. God knows, I have sat
on those benches and I know what it is like in question period. I
know what you are trying to do. It is not as if I arrived here a
couple of weeks ago.
Having said that, surely we can come to some kind of an
agreement that we will be able to conduct ourselves the way we
want to conduct ourselves so that the people who are asking the
questions will get the answers and those who are giving answers
will be heard on the other side.
1525
You want me perhaps to take punitive measures. There are
suggestions. I do not take offence when a member parliament
stands and says that maybe I should try this or maybe I should
try that. That is okay. It is advice. I will listen to advice.
If you get a little bit frustrated, I sit in this chair day
after day and hear our own members not give each other the chance
to speak or be heard on the other side.
If I have been a little too lenient, perhaps I should tighten it
up to the point where at least we can function a little bit
better. But as your Speaker, I do not want to be be some kind of
dictator or martinet. I do not want to do that. I want all of
us, the 301 of us, to be able to do our work in such a fashion
that we will be proud of what we do in here.
I ask all of you to review what has been said by your peers.
This is not somebody from outside; this is you who have spoken in
here today. Look at Hansard and look at your own conduct,
and me too. Let us see if tomorrow we can do a little bit
better.
I have heard the points you brought up and I am going to take
them to heart. But unless and until this House collectively
wants to discipline itself, I suggest that your Speaker can stand
here and shout all through question period and it will not make
one iota of difference until we want to make this House the place
that it should be. As the hon. member from Winnipeg said, we owe
each other that respect.
Once again, I ask you to respect each other as parliamentarians.
Tomorrow shall we see if we can have a better day for ourselves.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[Translation]
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have
the honour to table, in both official languages, the
government's response to 26 petitions.
* * *
[English]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
HEALTH
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I have the honour to present in both official languages
the first report of the Standing Committee on Health.
Pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, November 29, 1999,
your committee has considered Bill C-13, an act to establish the
Canadian institutes of health research, to repeal the Medical
Research Council Act and to make consequential amendments to
other acts. Your committee has agreed to report it with
amendments.
1530
I also have the honour to present, in both official languages,
the second report of the Standing Committee on Health pursuant to
Standing Order 108(2) and with regard to the study of Bill C-13,
an act to establish the Canadian institutes of health research,
to repeal the Medical Research Council Act and to make
consequential amendments to other acts. Your committee has
agreed to make the two recommendations listed in the attached
report.
* * *
SALES TAX AND EXCISE TAX AMENDMENTS ACT, 1999
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (for the Minister of Finance) moved
for leave to introduce Bill C-24, an act to amend the Excise Tax
Act, a related act, the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act, the Budget
Implementation Act, 1997, the Budget Implementation Act, 1998,
the Budget Implementation Act, 1999, the Canada Pension Plan, the
Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act, the Cultural Property
Export and Import Act, the Customs Act, the Customs Tariff, the
Employment Insurance Act, the Excise Act, the Income Tax Act, the
Tax Court of Canada Act and the Unemployment Insurance Act.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
INCOME TAX AMENDMENTS ACT, 1999
Hon. Jim Peterson (for the Minister of Finance) moved for
leave to introduce Bill C-25, an act to amend the Income Tax Act,
the Excise Tax Act and the Budget Implementation Act, 1999.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
INCOME TAX ACT
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-429, an act to amend the Income Tax Act
(deduction of mechanics' tool expenses).
He said: Madam Speaker, once again I am honoured to table a
private member's bill which would allow mechanics to deduct the
cost of purchasing tools under $200 or the capital cost allowance
on tools valued at over $200 when it is a job requirement to
purchase these tools. It is long past time when this should be
implemented into law.
I am proud to introduce the bill and encourage the whole House
to support it when it comes up for debate.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
CANADA HEALTH ACT
Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, Ref.) moved
for leave to introduce Bill C-430, an act to amend the Canada
Health Act (conditions for contributions).
He said: Madam Speaker, my bill is actually a notification
protocol for emergency response workers whose duties may expose
them to an infectious disease without their knowledge.
Due to a concern for patient confidentiality there is currently
no official procedure to notify these workers if it is discovered
they were exposed. My bill is designed to provide the
notification protocol urgently requested by the Canadian
Association of Firefighters while still protecting that
confidentiality.
1535
The need for this protocol is urgent. Emergency response
workers put their lives on the line to protect us when they are
attending accidents. We in turn owe it to them, their families
and their communities to take the appropriate steps to protect
them by swift passage of this non-partisan bill.
I have contacted the House leaders for each of the parties
requesting their support. I therefore request at this time to
seek the unanimous consent of the House that the bill be adopted
at second reading and sent to the Standing Committee on Health
for its timely consideration. If the House agrees, the bill will
be a non-partisan gift from all of us to those who put their
lives at risk for our safety and protection.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Is there agreement to
proceed in such a way?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
INDIAN ACT
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-431, an act to amend the Indian Act (election of
chiefs and councils).
He said: Madam Speaker, I am honoured again to table this
private member's bill which would be an amendment to the Indian
Act to put in place monitoring by Elections Canada of all
elections of chiefs and councils.
In speaking with aboriginal peoples in my constituency and
across the country one thing I have heard is that they want
accountability and certainly accountability in elections will
come if Elections Canada monitors all elections. We can be
pretty much assured that we will have fair elections. That is
what the bill is about. I cannot imagine anyone not supporting
it.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
[Translation]
RAOUL WALLENBERG DAY ACT
Mr. Clifford Lincoln (Lac-Saint-Louis, Lib.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-432 entitled an act respecting Raoul Wallenberg
Day.
He said: Madam Speaker, I have the honour to present a bill to
celebrate the life of Raoul Wallenberg, a Swedish citizen who
could have taken advantage of the fact that his country was a
neutral country during the war and led a very quiet life.
Instead, he almost lost it.
He risked his life to save more than 100,000 Hungarian Jews.
[English]
Indeed he saved more Jews during the war from the Holocaust than
many countries of the world. The intent of my bill is to
proclaim January 17 as Raoul Wallenberg Day.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
INCOME TAX CONVENTIONS IMPLEMENTATION ACT, 1999
Hon. Jim Peterson (for the Minister of Finance) moved that
Bill S-3, an act to implement an agreement, conventions and
protocols between Canada and Kyrgyzstan, Lebanon, Algeria,
Bulgaria, Portugal, Uzbekistan, Jordan, Japan and Luxembourg for
the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal
evasion with respect to taxes on income, be read the first time.
(Motion agreed to and bill read the first time)
* * *
1540
[Translation]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
LIBRARY OF PARLIAMENT
Mr. Raymond Lavigne (Verdun—Saint-Henri, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
with leave of the House, I move that the first report of the
Standing Joint Committee on the Library of Parliament, tabled in
the House on December 16, 1999, be concurred in.
This report establishes the mandate of the committee, its quorum
and its entitlement to sit during sittings of the Senate.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Does the hon. member have
unanimous consent to move his motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
[English]
SCRUTINY OF REGULATIONS
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Ref.): Madam Speaker,
I move that the first report of the Standing Joint Committee on
the Scrutiny of Regulations be concurred in.
This is the organizational report of the committee and its
content is the same as it has been at the beginning of every
session in this and the previous parliament, so the motion may be
deemed adopted.
[Translation]
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay: Madam Speaker, we are opposed to this
motion. There is a quorum restricting groups, etc., and we
oppose this proposal.
We would like the Chair to ask if there is unanimous consent on
this motion, so we can voice our opposition to it.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The hon. member for Surrey
Central moved a motion. We are now on debate, questions and
comments.
However, if no one rises to debate the motion, I can put it to
the House. Does anyone want to carry on the debate?
Some hon. members: No.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Is the House ready for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The House has heard
the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to
adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): In my opinion the
nays have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Call in the members.
1625
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Adams
| Anderson
|
Assad
| Augustine
| Axworthy
| Bailey
|
Baker
| Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Benoit
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
|
Blondin - Andrew
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
| Brison
| Brown
|
Bryden
| Bulte
| Caccia
| Cadman
|
Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
|
Casson
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Chatters
| Chrétien
(Saint - Maurice)
|
Clouthier
| Collenette
| Copps
| Cullen
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Discepola
| Doyle
|
Dromisky
| Duhamel
| Eggleton
| Elley
|
Finlay
| Folco
| Fontana
| Forseth
|
Fry
| Gagliano
| Gallaway
| Godfrey
|
Goldring
| Goodale
| Gouk
| Graham
|
Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Grose
|
Hanger
| Harb
| Harris
| Herron
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hubbard
| Iftody
|
Jackson
| Jennings
| Johnston
| Jones
|
Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Keyes
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Konrad
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Leung
| Limoges
| Lincoln
|
Longfield
| Lowther
| MacAulay
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
|
Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
|
Mark
| Marleau
| Matthews
| Mayfield
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McNally
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
|
Minna
| Mitchell
| Muise
| Murray
|
Nault
| Normand
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
|
Obhrai
| Pagtakhan
| Pankiw
| Paradis
|
Parrish
| Penson
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Price
| Proud
| Proulx
| Reed
|
Richardson
| Robillard
| Rock
| Saada
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stinson
| Strahl
|
Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
|
Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Torsney
| Ur
| Valeri
|
Vanclief
| Vellacott
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Wayne
| Whelan
| White
(North Vancouver)
| Wilfert
|
Williams
| Wood – 162
|
NAYS
Members
Alarie
| Asselin
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bigras
|
Canuel
| Cardin
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Dockrill
| Dumas
|
Earle
| Fournier
| Gagnon
| Girard - Bujold
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Gruending
| Guay
|
Guimond
| Hardy
| Lalonde
| Laurin
|
Loubier
| Mancini
| Marceau
| Marchand
|
Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Ménard
| Mercier
| Nystrom
|
Perron
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Plamondon
| Proctor
|
Sauvageau
| Solomon
| St - Hilaire
| Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
|
Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Venne – 42
|
PAIRED
Members
Mr. Werner Schmidt: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I noticed that the member for Trinity—Spadina and I
came into the House at about the same time. He was allowed to
vote and I was not. If I had been here at the same time, I would
have voted with my party.
The Speaker: Did the hon. member for Trinity—Spadina
enter the House after I had read the motion?
Mr. Tony Ianno: Yes, Mr. Speaker.
The Speaker: The member's name will be withdrawn from the
voting list.
I declare the motion carried.
It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the
House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of
adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Parkdale—High
Park, Health; the hon. member for Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik,
Gasoline Prices; the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst, Employment
Insurance.
* * *
1630
PETITIONS
CANADA POST CORPORATION
Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, I have had several petitions to present for some time,
but because of the unusual proceedings in the House I have not
been able to introduce them.
The first petition deals with rural route mail carriers. The
petitioners seek the support of the House in ensuring basic
rights to help Canada Post improve wages and working conditions
for rural mail carriers, which are unfair and discriminate
against rural workers. Therefore the petitioners call upon
parliament to repeal section 13(5) of the Canada Post Corporation
Act.
NATIONAL HIGHWAYS
Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, I have another petition from constituents who are
calling on parliament to fund the national highway system in the
2000 budget to reduce fatalities and injuries on roadways.
GENETICALLY MODIFIED FOODS
Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, in the third petition the petitioners call on parliament
to enforce labelling on all foods containing genetically modified
organisms.
CHILD PORNOGRAPHY
Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, the final petition deals with child pornography,
particularly in British Columbia. The petitioners request that
parliament, at the earliest opportunity, invoke section 33 of the
charter of rights and freedoms to override the B.C. court of
appeal decision and reinstate subsection 163.1(4) of the criminal
code, making possession of child pornography illegal.
GASOLINE
Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur (Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I am pleased to present a
petition signed by residents of Newmarket, Mississauga,
Kitchener, Burlington and Whitby which urges the government to
support the auto industry in its clean fuel program and to
implement new fuel standards for gasoline with zero MMT.
CHILD POVERTY
Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur (Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I have another petition signed by residents of Petrolia,
Brigden and Corunna who urge the government to help in
eliminating child poverty by using the federal budget to
introduce a multi-year plan to improve the well-being of Canada's
children.
NEW IDENTITIES PROGRAM
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, I rise today to present a petition signed by over 600
people from Newfoundland, Quebec, Prince Edward Island, Alberta,
B.C., Ontario, New Brunswick, Manitoba and Saskatchewan. The
petitioners call on parliament to pass into law Bill C-494, which
would formally fund and administer the new identities program
under the witness protection program, providing necessary
protection of last resort for those trying to protect their lives
and the lives of their children from abusive spouses.
GENETIC ENGINEERING
Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I am
pleased to rise to present a petition from citizens of the
Peterborough area who are concerned about genetic engineering.
Genetic engineering of food, plants and animals is still
relatively new, but it is expanding at an extraordinary rate. It
now involves the manipulation of the most basic building blocks
of life and requires such a high level of science and technology
that it places new forms of basic foods in the hands of large
corporations.
Genetic engineering of plants in one field can affect those in
another through the spread of pollen.
1635
Plants have been developed to produce a terminator gene which
prevents farmers from growing seed for future plantings.
The petitions call upon parliament to direct the Government of
Canada to ban all terminator gene development in Canada and to
work with the United Nations to ban such development worldwide.
CANADA POST CORPORATION
Mr. Reed Elley (Nanaimo—Cowichan, Ref.): Madam Speaker,
I have two petitions which I would like to present today.
The first petition is on behalf of 77 petitioners from my riding
who draw to the attention of the House that rural route mail
carriers are not covered under a collective agreement. They call
upon parliament to repeal section 13(5) of the Canada Post
Corporation Act to protect these workers.
GENETICALLY MODIFIED FOODS
Mr. Reed Elley (Nanaimo—Cowichan, Ref.): Madam Speaker,
it gives me a great deal of pleasure to present to the House a
petition signed by 5,325 people from Vancouver Island.
The petitioners draw the attention of the government to the
problem of genetically modified organisms. They call upon
parliament to enforce labelling of all foods that contain
genetically modified organisms and to make sure that adequate
testing is done on these foods to ensure the safety of our food
supply.
CHILD POVERTY
Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Madam Speaker, it is
with pleasure that I rise today to present a petition signed by
people from across Nova Scotia, who urge the government to
fulfill the 1989 House of Commons pledge to end child poverty by
the year 2000.
Obviously we are now in the year 2000, which makes it even more
important that we address the very important issue of child
poverty post-haste in the House.
CHILDREN
Ms. Jean Augustine (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, it is my pleasure to
present four petitions on behalf of my constituents of
Etobicoke—Lakeshore.
The first petition calls upon parliament to use federal budget
2000 to introduce a multi-year plan to improve the well-being of
Canada's children.
ABOLITION OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS
Ms. Jean Augustine (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, the second petition requests that parliament support the
immediate initiation and conclusion by the end of 2000 of an
international convention which will set out a binding timetable
for the abolition of all nuclear weapons.
CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY
Ms. Jean Augustine (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, the third petition calls upon parliament to support Bill
C-479, the recognition of crimes against humanity act.
CRUELTY TO ANIMALS
Ms. Jean Augustine (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, the fourth petition requests parliament to enact animal
protection legislation that will enforce sanctions upon persons
convicted of cruelty to animals.
EQUALITY
Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton East, Ref.): Madam Speaker,
I take great pride in presenting a petition put forth by over
2,000 concerned Canadians, mostly from the province of Quebec.
The petitioners ask our government to affirm that all Canadians
are equal under all circumstances and without exception in the
province of Quebec and throughout Canada.
They wish to remind our government only to enact legislation
that affirms the equality of each and every individual under the
laws of Canada.
CHILD POVERTY
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
I am pleased to present a petition signed by a number of
Canadians, including those from my own riding of Mississauga
South, on the subject of child poverty.
The petitioners would like to draw to the attention of the House
that one in five children in Canada lives in poverty, according
to the Statistics Canada low income cut-off, and that on November
24, 1989 the House unanimously passed a resolution to seek to
achieve the elimination of child poverty by the year 2000.
The petitioners therefore call upon parliament in this federal
budget, and indeed through other initiatives, to seek to achieve
the elimination of child poverty as soon as possible.
IMMIGRATION
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I
rise to present a petition on behalf of Vladimir Cicha, Mavis
Johnson, Fran Lewis and 240 others from North Vancouver.
The petitioners bring to the attention of the House the fact
that the recent arrival of a ship bearing 123 illegal Chinese
migrants to Vancouver Island has underscored how illegal
immigration is one of the most serious issues facing Canada.
1640
The petitioners call upon parliament to enact immediate changes
to Canada's immigration laws governing refugees to deal with the
situation.
I might add, Madam Speaker, that the government's response to
these petitions so far has been less than satisfactory.
CHILD POVERTY
Mr. Rick Casson (Lethbridge, Ref.): Madam Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36, it is my pleasure to table the
following petition from concerned Canadians in my riding of
Lethbridge.
The petitioners call upon the House of Commons to fulfill the
promise made in 1989 by the House of Commons to end child poverty
by the year 2000.
TAXATION
Mr. Rick Casson (Lethbridge, Ref.): Madam Speaker, the
second petition is also from concerned Canadians in my riding of
Lethbridge.
The petitioners call attention to the fact that Paul Martin
has raised federal taxes in six budgets and that in Paul Martin's
six budgets the tax burden—
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I remind the hon.
member that we do not refer to members by their names in the
House of Commons.
Mr. Rick Casson: In the six budgets of the Minister of
Finance revenues from the GST, which the Liberals promised to
kill, scrap and abolish, have grown by 30%.
Therefore, the petitioners call upon parliament to give Canadian
taxpayers a break by instituting tax relief of at least 25% in
the next three years, starting immediately.
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Madam Speaker, the
first petition I would like to present concerns taxation. The
petitioners, mostly from the Cold Lake area, call for the
government to lower taxes because it has increased taxes 30%
since it became the government, it has not honoured the promise
to scrap the GST and high taxes are job killers.
The petitioners call on the government to reduce taxes by at
least 25% over the next three years.
I fully support this petition.
CHILD PORNOGRAPHY
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Madam Speaker, the
second petition has to do with child pornography and the problem
which we still have in the country with the possession of child
pornography being legal in British Columbia.
The petitioners call on the government to rectify the situation
immediately.
I fully support this petition as well.
IMMIGRATION
Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Ref.): Madam Speaker, today I
rise to present two petitions signed by the people from
the constituency of Red Deer.
The first petition, which is signed by 28 individuals, requests
that parliament immediately enact changes to Canada's immigration
laws governing refugees.
CHILD POVERTY
Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Ref.): Madam Speaker, the second
petition is signed by 325 constituents, who urge parliament to
fulfill the 1989 promise of the House of Commons to end child
poverty by the year 2000.
* * *
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
the following questions will be answered today: Nos. 6, 48, 51,
60, 62 and 65.
.[Text]
Question No. 6—Mr. John Herron:
With regard to RESPs, does the Minister of Finance have a plan
to ensure financial planners are permitted to apply for
administrative relief and, if so, what is the plan?
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of National Revenue and Secretary
of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions
of Quebec), Lib.): Registered education savings plans, RESPs
have existed and have been registered with the Department of
National Revenue, now the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency, for
several years. To date there has not been a need to establish a
policy regarding administrative relief.
However, with the introduction of the new Canada education
savings grant program in 1998, there has been a significant
increase in RESP activity which has given rise to a few requests
for administrative relief.
The Canada Customs and Revenue Agency is monitoring the
situation and will consult with the Department of Finance and the
Department of Human Resources Development if the problem becomes
significant and a policy needs to be developed.
Question No. 48—Mr. Charles Caccia:
What has been the tonnage of SO2 cross-border coming from the
United States into Canada for the last five years?
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of the Environment, Lib.): This
information does not currently exist. It would require complex
models, which have not been attempted to date. What is known,
based on 14 years of data, 1980-1994, is that while Canada has
been emitting only 15% of the sulphur, it has been receiving 41%
of the sulphur wet deposition. This implies a strong influx from
south of the border.
Question No. 51—Mr. Charles Caccia:
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of the Environment, Lib.): The
estimated annual deposition of sulphate in Eastern Canada for the
years 1990-1995, the most recent year for which we have data, is:
1990—4.44 million tonnes
1991—3.81 million tonnes
1992—3.90 million tonnes
1993—3.54 million tonnes
1994—3.43 million tonnes
1995—2.73 million tonnes
Question No. 60—Mr. Bill Casey:
With regard to the exchange of surplus land at Mirabel Airport
for two property lots belonging to the town of Mirabel, for which
the federal government's approval was announced by the Minister
of Transport on November 22, 1999, what are the current market
values of these three pieces of land?
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Lot 15-1815 of the Cadastre of Mirabel,
registration division of Deux-Montagnes which was transferred by
the federal government to the province of Quebec in 1995, was
appraised at $489,000 by an independant appraiser, Barbeau,
Lavoie, Gauvreau, Vaillancourt et associés inc., hired by
Transport Canada. It was valued at $304,937 by the province for
the exchange with the town of Mirabel.
The two lots owned by the town of Mirabel to be exchanged for
lot 15-1815 were appraised at $67,110 and $156,509 by the town of
Mirabel.
Question No. 62—Mr. Yvan Loubier:
With regard to the salary scale for directors of Human Resources
Development Canada centres: (a) can the salary scale include
performance pay; and (b) if so, what is the average amount of
such performance pay (i) for Quebec as a whole, (ii) for the
Montérégie region, and (iii) for central Quebec?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): (a) A performance bonus is a lump sum payment that is not
part of the salary scale. The pay scale for Human Resources
Centres of Canada, HRCC, directors is $74,300 to $87,400.
(b)(i) Human Resources Centres of Canada directors in Quebec as a whole
received an average of 1.05% of their salary as a performance
bonus, taxable, which was in the range of $780 to $917 gross.
(ii)(iii) Since there are so few HRCC directors in Montérégie and central
Quebec, departmental privacy policy does not allow for the
release of this information.
Question No. 65—Mr. John Williams:
Regarding page 10.14 of the Public Accounts of Canada 1998-1999.
Volume II (ii), under the rubric Ex Gratia Payments—Department
of Health, Compensation for damages to multiple infrastructure
projects in the amount of $55,000 can the government provide a
breakdown of: (a) what was damaged; (b) the costs or
repairing the damage per item; (c) who was responsible for the
damage; (d) were those held responsible reprimanded and/or
terminated; (e) was the incident reported to the authorities or
to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): The payment of
$55,000 was erroneously coded to ex gratia. The transaction was
related to the construction of a Health Canada health center.
[English]
Mr. Derek Lee: Madam Speaker, I ask that the remaining
questions be allowed to stand.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
* * *
QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker, if
Questions Nos. 19 and 35 could be made orders for return, the
returns would be tabled immediately.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
.[Text]
Question No. 19—Mr. Eric Lowther:
With respect to the import of what is or was known as “grey
market” direct-to-home or digital satellite systems and digital
broadcasting equipment, devices or components which are deemed to
be in violation of sections 9 and/or 10 of the Radiocommunication
Act: (a) what federal taxes and/or duties have been collected
from those importing this equipment into Canada; (b) what is
the estimated amount of federal taxes collected on the import of
this equipment for each year since 1993; (c) what is the
estimated amount of customs duties collected on the import of
this equipment for each year since 1993; and (d) what is the
estimated value of this type of equipment which has been imported
into Canada?
Return tabled.
Question No. 35—Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis:
For the financial year 1999-2000, how much money has the
government (a) spent before September 1, 1999, and (b)
allocated for the reduction of smoking, in each of the following
activity areas: (i) anti-smoking programs aimed at youth and
young Canadians, (ii) research into tobacco use and its
consequences, (iii) enforcement of federal laws on tobacco use,
(iv) enforcement of laws against cigarette smuggling, (v)
measurement of the tobacco use by Canadians, (vi) development of
regulations under the new Tobacco Act, (vii) costs associated
with the tobacco industry challenge of the Tobacco Act, (viii)
cessation programs or other support for Canadians addicted to
cigarettes, and (ix) grants and/or contributions to health and
community organizations?
Return tabled.
* * *
[English]
MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
Notice of Motion for the Production of Papers No. P-8, in the
name of the hon. member for Calgary Centre, is acceptable to the
government and the documents are tabled immediately.
That an Order of the House do issue for copies of
all studies and/or reports since September 1993 of the
operational and regulatory costs of the Canadian Radio-television
and Telecommunications Commission (CRTC) to Canadian industry
and/or consumers.
Mr. Derek Lee: Madam Speaker, I ask that all remaining
Notices of Motions for the Production of Papers be allowed to
stand.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
* * *
REQUEST FOR EMERGENCY DEBATE
ECONOMY OF CAPE BRETON
Mr. Peter Mancini (Sydney—Victoria, NDP): Madam Speaker,
I rise today to seek leave under Standing Order 52(2) to move,
seconded by the hon. member for Bras d'Or—Cape Breton, that this
House do now adjourn for an emergency debate to address the
deepening economic and social crisis facing the Island of Cape
Breton.
I will not speak just about the Devco situation because I know
that would not be sufficient under the rules. However, during
the month of January it was indicated by the provincial
government that it would either sell or close down the Sydney
Steel Corporation.
It has not sold it. It has listed the assets for sale. This
means 700 people will lose their jobs in that industry.
1645
Because of cuts at the CBC, the Pit Pony series has been
cancelled resulting in the loss of 200 jobs. If we combine that
with the 1,500 jobs that will be lost when the government passes
the Devco legislation, this comes to about 2,400 jobs in an area
that already has an unemployment rate two to three times the
national average.
This is a national crisis. It is an emergency. It has happened
over the last month. It has been precipitated by the actions of
the provincial government and the federal government. Every one
of those jobs has two or three spinoffs.
I would ask for leave for an emergency debate. I will leave
this in the Speaker's hands.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): At this point I
must tell the member for Sydney—Victoria that I really do not
feel such a request meets the criteria for an emergency debate.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
CAPE BRETON DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION DIVESTITURE
AUTHORIZATION AND DISSOLUTION ACT
The House resumed from November 15, 1999 consideration of the
motion that Bill C-11, an act to authorize the divestiture of the
assets of, and to dissolve, the Cape Breton Development
Corporation, to amend the Cape Breton Development Corporation Act
and to make consequential amendments to other acts, be read the
second time and referred to a committee; and of the amendment.
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Madam Speaker, I
rise today to follow up on the comments I made on November 15,
1999 on Bill C-11, an act to authorize the divestiture of the
assets of, and to dissolve, the Cape Breton Development
Corporation. On that occasion I spoke about the Liberal
government's lack of respect for the workers in Atlantic Canada
and how Bill C-11 was just another insult to the workers who have
given their lives to Devco.
Since November 15 much has happened in Cape Breton with regard
to the Liberal government's treatment of the Devco question.
[Translation]
On January 4, Devco miners had to resort to a strike to get the
Liberal government's attention. Did it listen? Of course not.
It continued to stick its head in the sand. It was only when
miners barricaded themselves underground and threatened to go on
a hunger strike that the government began to take an interest.
Finally, after a year of asking for a meeting with the Minister
of Natural Resources, union representatives were able to sit
down with the minister and air their concerns.
Negotiations on the pension plan began on January 11 and were
referred to a mediator last week.
Miners should have been granted the right to negotiate their
pension plan from the outset of the dispute. However, we should
never expect the Liberal government to consult those concerned.
That would be far too much to ask.
[English]
While the miners were fighting for the right to negotiate, it
was revealed that the finance minister's shipping company was
part of the fleet bringing coal in from Columbia and the U.S. It
was also reported that the finance minister's company had
expressed interest in buying some of Devco's assets.
The Liberal government has no shame. It cuts thousands of jobs
in Cape Breton while the finance minister directly profits from
the sale of Devco. In my books that is what I call a conflict of
interest.
That is not the only problem with the Liberal government's quick
sale of Devco. The moneys set aside for economic adjustment are
inadequate even by the government's own estimates which placed
the need at $300 million. The proposed funding package is
definitely inadequate in comparison to the Gardiner-Pinfold study
which suggested the cost to offset fallout from the closure of
Devco would be $1.5 billion.
The government is once again writing its policy on the run. It
refused to consult the affected communities, the unions that
represent the workers affected and other community groups who
live in Cape Breton and know what the impact will be if Devco is
sold.
Too often my Liberal colleagues on the other side of the House
forget that the policies which they support have a direct impact
on the lives of Canadians.
1650
Many of the policy decisions made by the government have hurt
Canadians. The cuts to social transfers have crippled our health
care system and increased tuition fees for universities to such a
level that many Canadians no longer consider post-secondary
education. Because of changes to the employment insurance,
800,000 unemployed workers cannot receive EI benefits, even if
they contributed to the fund.
Do the hon. members opposite realize the hardship that will
descend on the people of Cape Breton if Devco is closed? It is
sometimes hard to imagine the effect on a community when it is
not ours.
Unfortunately, I have seen the devastation caused by
unemployment. I have seen families thrown into poverty, children
going to school with no food in their bellies and workers going
to the employment insurance office day after day hoping to find
jobs but leaving empty-handed. This kind of desperation takes a
toll on the family and on the community.
The government is content with turning its back on Cape
Bretoners when it could have proceeded in a humane and proactive
manner. It could have sat down with community leaders, unions,
elected representatives to figure out what needed to be done to
fulfil the government's obligation under sections 17 and 18 of
the original Devco act.
Instead of its drive-by announcement, the minister could have
actually talked to Devco workers, answered a few of their
questions and, heaven forbid, actually have acted on their
recommendations.
Why does the government always run away when the Canadian people
want to talk to them? The former Minister of Human Resources
Development categorically refused to meet with unemployed workers
even though his department administered the Employment Insurance
Act which condemned thousands of Canadian families to poverty.
Now the Minister of Natural Resources comes in, announces the
Devco closure and takes off. Why do Canadians have to take to
the streets to get the Liberal government to listen to them?
The members for Bras d'Or—Cape Breton and Sydney—Victoria have
stood in the House repeatedly to identify the fundamental
problems with this bill. They outlined the lack of public
consultations, but did the Liberal government listen? Of course
not.
Sadly, it is par for the course for this government. Let me
talk about other areas where the Liberals have let Canadians
down: the lack of leadership in the aboriginal fisheries crisis;
the inaction of the government on homelessness; the government
turning its back on hepatitis C victims; the Liberal government
cuts in social transfers which have plunged our health care into
crisis; the sky-rocketing cost of getting a post-secondary
education; the cuts to employment insurance; the bungling of HRDC
grants.
The government has made a habit of letting down Canadians and
this Devco sell-off is just another item on the list.
However, it is not too late. The government can still set
things right. I hope the Minister of Natural Resources and his
colleagues listen carefully to the debate that is going on now
and act in the best interest of the people of Cape Breton. It is
pretty clear they have not so far.
The government should have more respect for those people who
have spent 30 years working underground in the coal mines. I bet
not many members in the House of Commons have ever worked
underground. I know what it is like to work underground because
I worked for 15 years underground. However, I did not work for
the coal industry.
The government must show respect for the people of Cape Breton.
It must take a lead hand and take care of those people who have
spent 30 years of their lives underground in Cape Breton. The
government has a responsibility. It cannot just sell off Cape
Breton to the Minister of Finance who wants to be the next Prime
Minister.
1655
Mr. Alex Shepherd (Durham, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in
listening to the hon. member's speech, I know there must be
another side to the story of Cape Breton. I know that I speak
for millions of Canadians when I say that we understand just how
difficult the closing of the mines of Cape Breton is for the
miners and their families.
There are members of the House who should be ashamed of
themselves for trying to make Canadians believe that Cape Breton
miners cannot be retrained. They would have us believe that the
economy of industrial Cape Breton is nothing more than coal mines
and steel mills, which we just heard today, and that its future
can never move beyond the old economy. There are members of the
House who would sustain political careers by keeping Cape
Bretoners chained to industries that are no longer viable as
presently operated.
It is no secret to the people of industrial Cape Breton that the
economy has been on life-support for over 30 years. Is this fair
to the miners? Is it fair to their wives? Is it fair to their
children? Is it fair to these families to put more money into
industries going nowhere when money can be spent on industries
that have a future?
Cape Bretoners can and will make changes to their own future.
They have done it in the past with people like J.P. McLaughlin,
Moses Coady and Father Thompkins. The federal government is not
turning its back on Cape Breton.
I will review what the federal government is doing in a later
comment.
There are very few miners who in fact are going to be
dislocated. Jobs are available at the Prince mine. They have a
chance of employment there. There are over 500 jobs being
created.
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, I really welcome the
comments by my Liberal colleague across the way, but not his
question. It shows how disconnected he is to the problems in
Cape Breton. He did not see the families who came here to meet
with parliamentarians. He did not see the wives crying and tears
rolling down their cheeks because of what the government has done
to the people of Cape Breton. He seems to have forgotten what
the Liberals have done to those families of Cape Breton. He
should take another look at what has been done.
One cannot train people at 50 years of age and think that they
will go back into the mines. That is what we are talking about.
We are talking about people over 45 years old, those who are 50
and 54 years old. Do you want them to be trained and go back to
college? You should quit thinking that because it is not right.
What we are talking about is giving a fair agreement to those
people so they can put bread on their table and feed their
families.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): We will go to the
hon. member for Dewdney—Alouette, but before we do that may I
ask hon. members to address each other through the chair.
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, it is incredible what we have just witnessed in this
place. We have a colleague from the New Democratic Party who has
lived the life of a Cape Bretoner with the experiences he was
talking about and the hon. member for Durham, a Liberal, has the
gall to stand up in this place and lecture that member and other
members of the opposition about what they should do and what they
should think.
It is the Liberals' policies and their arrogance, which he has
just demonstrated, that has led to this kind of situation in Cape
Breton. This is the kind of arrogance that is a pattern across
these benches that speaks every day to the reason why we need a
change in the governing party and to throw them out of office so
that people will have a different approach and a different way of
governing in this country.
I would just ask my colleague if he might comment on that.
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, there again I would like to
thank the hon. member for his comments and not his question.
That is what the government failed to do for all the years it
was in power in Cape Breton. When Cape Breton was in its hands
why did it not begin training people? Why did it wait until it
had closed the mines and put people on welfare before beginning
to train them? Why did it give them the hardships they have
today?
For years and years the government was served on a silver
platter by Atlantic Canadians. Do the Liberals know why they
were kicked out? Do they know why Doug Young was kicked out. It
was because of their attitude, as the hon. member just showed.
That is why Atlantic Canada has kicked the Liberals out of
office. I hope that the rest of the country, along with Ontario,
smartens up and kicks them out too, because they do not deserve
to have a place in the House.
1700
[Translation]
Mr. Hec Clouthier (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, when my good friend the member for Acadie—Bathurst gets
upset, I worry he will have a heart attack.
[English]
I empathize with my colleague. No one likes to see people lose
their jobs, but I have to disagree with him on two statements
that he made. He said that the Liberal government had cut health
care to the bone. Yes, we did make some cuts to health care in
1993, but now the funding has been returned to health care in the
year 2000 to what it was in 1993.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Hec Clouthier: They keep yelling.
[Translation]
All the yelling across the way will not make more housing
available after the next election. This is ridiculous.
[English]
This is the question I want to ask my friend. Devco has been
supported for 30 years by the federal government. My colleague
said that. How can we make a change at Devco? Do we keep on
putting money into something that continually loses money?
Mrs. Michelle Dockrill: Give them a fair deal. That is
what the government should do.
Mr. Hec Clouthier: The member is saying that it is a fair
deal. In my region we lost many people from the lumber industry.
I am sure it is the same in Acadie—Bathurst. Sometimes when the
resource is no longer there or people cannot make any money, they
have to make a change.
What would my colleague suggest the federal government do in
order to keep the people working at Devco? I just cannot see how
it can stay open if it loses money.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, I am very fond of my colleague
opposite. He goes to the same barber as I do, and we get our
hair cut the same way.
If I have a heart attack here, in the House, fighting for the
people in the Atlantic region, it will have been worth it.
[English]
I will repeat it in English. If I have to have a heart attack
in this Chamber fighting for the people in my riding and the
people of the Atlantic, it is worth it to have one.
Regarding health care, in 1969 the government was paying 50% of
the cost of health care. Today we are down to 13%. I do not
care what happened back in 1993. The Liberals have cut health
care. That is why seniors do not have adequate health care any
more. That is why people want to privatize health care. It is
because the Liberals have cut health care.
Our grandparents and our children have to wait in the hallways
of hospitals to get service. When our parents have cancer they
have to go to the United States to get service. That is what the
Liberals have done in our country.
To answer the hon. member's question about Devco, we need a fair
deal for those people so that they can get up in the morning and
be proud because they have served the country for 30 years. For
30 years they have gone underground and put their lives on the
line for the country. They deserve better than what the Liberals
have given them today.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Unfortunately, there is no
more time for questions and comments. The hon. member for
Jonquière.
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I rise to
speak today in the debate on second reading of Bill C-11, an act
to authorize the divestiture of the assets of, and to dissolve,
the Cape Breton Development Corporation, to amend the Cape
Breton Development Corporation Act and to make consequential
amendments to other Acts.
The reason we are having to debate this bill is that, on January
28, 1999, the federal Minister of Natural Resources announced
the closure of the Phalen Mine and the privatization of the
Price Mine, both of these being coal mines located in Cape
Breton and operated by the Cape Breton Development Corporation.
Bill C-11 means the withdrawal of the federal government from
coal mining in that region.
1705
As a result of this decision, once the closure and privatization
have taken place, some 1,000 people will be without work in a
region where the unemployment rate is already close to 25%.
I believe we should take advantage of the debate on this bill to
properly examine how this could happen. Our role as
parliamentarians requires us to question the economic
development choices made by the federal government in the past,
so as not to keep on repeating the same planning errors.
Today we have an example of this in the coal mining sector.
In recent years, the fishers have also had to pay a high price
for the federal government's lack of planning and poor resource
management.
We must also ask ourselves how the government needs to act in
future to ensure regional development, and we must wonder, in
light of its numerous failures, whether it ought not to leave
this to the provincial governments, which are often in a better
position to know what a population to which they are closer
needs.
In closing, I shall focus on the importance of planning
replacement industries when the decline of others is
predictable, and particularly on the replacement of polluting
energy sources such as coal by renewable and cleaner energy
sources.
But I would like first to return to the situation of the
workers, who, after years of work in the harsh conditions of the
mining industry, find themselves without work and with few
prospects for the future.
That moves me, because last year, with some of my colleagues, I
met the representatives of these workers, who were very
concerned about their fate. They had come to Ottawa to tell
parliament and the government that they should do something to
save their community. To my way of thinking, they are the
victims of the lack of vision of the federal government, whose
economic strategy for this region hinged solely on the mining
industry.
Since 1967, the federal government has injected over $1.5 billion
in coal mining by the Cape Breton Development Corporation.
However, by the end of the 1960s, a commission on the future of
the industry on Cape Breton Island indicated that coal
production should be phased out and the local economy
diversified. Unfortunately, the Liberals of the day, like the
Liberals of today, lacked political courage. Instead of
planning a change in the economy in co-operation with the
provincial government, the federal government preferred to keep
its little empire, which assured it maximum visibility.
And so the federal government continued over the years to
encourage hundreds of young workers to go into the mines like
their father.
It said to them “Trust the federal government, you young men,
you will have jobs for the rest of your days. Keep on mining”.
We can see what happened. Today, the government is putting the
key in the door and proposing an early retirement program that,
however, excludes some 230 miners with over 25 years' seniority.
These events are serious, very serious.
In my opinion, the federal government has a moral responsibility
to these workers and to the some 6,000 people living off coal
mining, since it is in large measure responsible for this
situation. I encourage my colleagues who will be examining this
bill in committee to remember this responsibility when they
address the issue of pensions and acquired rights.
This situation totally upsets me, since I have seen the federal
government behave this same way in many other sectors of the
economy, dropping them overnight, with no transition, with no
alternative, when its visibility was threatened.
1710
One only has to think about the program for older worker
adjustment. That program was designed to help workers who were
often the victims of the federal government's mismanagement and
of plant closures. That program helped workers, in spite of
being underfunded and in spite of criteria which were sometimes
inflexible and which did not take specific circumstances into
account. But at least there was a program.
Unfortunately, this is no longer the case since 1997. The then
Minister of Human Resources Development stubbornly refused to
maintain the program.
And the new Minister of Human Resources Development did not have
anything concrete to propose to these workers, even though a
unanimous report from the human resources development
subcommittee recommended that measures be taken for workers,
including the 230 miners. But the government has nothing for
these people. This is how caring this government is.
The government abandons these workers, but it has no qualms
about using employment insurance surpluses, about using money
that belongs to workers and to which they are entitled. These
workers are even more frustrated when they see that the
Department of Human Resources Development uses their money for
political purposes and distributes it so freely that it is
unable to know who got money and for what purpose.
In order to avoid other human dramas such as the closing of the
Cape Breton Development Corporation, this government must
absolutely have greater long term vision. If mines in Cape
Breton had to close, other coal mines elsewhere in Canada could
suffer the same fate.
Alberta produces 50% of Canada's coal and British Columbia
produces 35%. And even if western coal is of better quality than
eastern coal, the fact remains that power plants, which are the
main users of coal, are gradually replacing it with natural gas.
Moreover, the price of coal on the international markets has
declined sharply over the past 20 years.
Between 1981 and 1994, prices of the two leading types of coal
dropped by 40% to 50%. And this trend is expected to continue
because this is a source of energy that leaves a high level of
very polluting residue in the air.
Even the report released last September by the federal
government appointed task force said that coal use was coming to
an end. It felt that Canada should rapidly cut back on its use
of coal to produce electricity if it was to meet its commitments
to reduce domestic greenhouse gas emissions.
The report also concluded that, in order to produce more
electricity while reducing pollution, coal would have to be
replaced by energy sources that produce less atmospheric
pollution, such as hydroelectricity and natural gas.
An analysis suggests that Canada should reduce its production of
coal-generated energy by 38% over the next decade.
I point out in passing that while Canada, by signing the Kyoto
protocol, undertook to reduce domestic greenhouse gas emissions
by 6% annually to 1990 levels by the year 2012, Canadian
emissions increased by 13% between 1990 and 1997 and that,
without a radical change in government policies, greenhouse
gases could increase by as much as 41% by 2020.
In light of the predictable decline in fossil fuels and given
its international greenhouse gas reduction commitments, it is
high time the federal government invested substantially in the
development of alternative forms of energy.
The government must have a long term plan to favour the use of
energy that is less harmful to our health and our environment,
such as hydroelectricity, wind energy and solar energy.
If the government had acted 25 years ago, we would not see what
is happening now in Cape Breton. We would not be faced with the
fact that 1,000 workers will lose their jobs and that an entire
community is threatened because of decisions that were not taken
25 years ago.
1715
I will take this opportunity to mention that the federal task
force report I referred to earlier asked the federal government
to harmonize its environmental assessment process with the
provinces' processes, so that it will no hinder the development
of new sources of energy, particularly hydroelectricity, which
could help Canada meet the targets set out in the Kyoto
protocol.
Therefore, I encourage the federal government to start planning
now, in co-operation with provincial governments, the
transitional measures that will be required to reorient the
economy of areas that are in decline such as Cape Breton,
particularly in the energy sector.
The federal government can no longer afford to close down entire
industries or regions by walking away from its responsibilities
to workers and communities.
[English]
Mr. Brent St. Denis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Natural Resources, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I would like to make
it clear to the House and to those who are listening to the
debate on television that our friends in the opposition are
confusing two very important elements with respect to Bill C-11.
Bill C-11 essentially authorizes the sale of the Devco assets so
that the private sector can take those assets to create jobs and
continue coal mining in Cape Breton.
I appreciate that the opposition would use this as a platform to
talk about the human resources package, to talk about health care
in Canada, to talk about any number of other issues some related
and some not. But using this simple bill which will allow for
the sale of Devco assets and the continuation of coal mining as a
platform for other issues could create a delay, but hopefully
would not, that may hurt that process. I do not think anyone
wants to see that.
I simply want to make it clear that on the human resources side,
which is very separate from this bill, the government has made a
commitment of $111 million of severance and early retirement
measures for the workers and $68 million for economic
development. Add to that $12 million from the province. This has
been made available to the communities so that they may redevelop
their local economies to respond to the realities at Devco.
The member for Jonquière raised a number of very good points. I
go back to my comments and questions to the opposition last
November. Do we not believe that the best ideas for economic
renewal come from the communities, their leaders and their
citizens as opposed to Ottawa or elsewhere in the country? Should
we not empower them to find the best solutions for the challenges
they face?
I caution opposition members to focus on the need to get on with
the future of Cape Breton. Focus on the need to make sure that a
strong private sector buyer is able to create the jobs that we
hope can be maintained. Do not confuse the human resources
package with the need to move on with the private sector partner.
Does the member for Jonquière not agree that the very best
solution for local communities is to allow local leaders and
citizens to implement their ideas so that their economy best
reflects their needs and the capacity of their citizens in this
millennium?
1720
[Translation]
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Madam Speaker, I
thank my colleague across the way for his question. I believe
he has not looked at the history of what has been going on in
Cape Breton for the past 25 years. He is not familiar with
history, a history that was made by this government, by the
Liberal government of the day. This government is responsible
for the situation we are in today. Had it left the local
communities and the province to do what they wanted, had it not
played sugar-daddy in order to build up its empire and get back
its visibility, things would not have ended up like this.
In the past 25 years, the government has invested $1.5 billion,
or $1 million for every one job.
Instead of handing it back to the people, it invested again in
order to extend the life of something that was doomed to
failure.
I have quoted federal government studies which have stated for
years that our thoughts about coal have to be changed. It has
continued telling people “Things are fine. Stay as you are, the
future is no problem.”
This government had no social conscience. Today, once the harm
has been done, the hon. member over there tells us “We are going
to pull out. We are going to leave the local communities to
become self-governing”. They turn everything topsy-turvey and
then they withdraw. They cannot ignore the fact that they are
the ones in the wrong, and they are the ones who have to right
that wrong.
[English]
Mrs. Michelle Dockrill (Bras d'Or—Cape Breton, NDP):
Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for her comments with respect
to what is happening in Cape Breton. I hear the members on the
government side talk about the real issues, about what we are
talking about and that this has nothing to do with the human
resources package. As my colleague has mentioned, what we are
talking about is that the government has funded this corporation
and clearly and obviously has run this corporation into the
ground and has now decided to walk away.
What we expect from the government is a fair settlement for the
men, the families and the communities of Cape Breton Island. I
hear the government members saying would it not be better to
allow the communities to decide their fate. Cape Bretoners have
been wanting that opportunity for 30 years, but they have never
had that opportunity. It has always been left in the hands of
the friends of the government to decide for Cape Bretoners what
is best for them. That is what has happened to this crown
corporation.
Does my colleague agree with the New Democratic Party that this
is not about the government making the decision to arbitrarily
get out of the industry? It is the government and it can make
that decision. This is about ensuring that Cape Breton miners,
their families and communities are given a fair settlement before
the government walks away and sets this corporation up to sell it
probably to another Liberal friend.
[Translation]
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold: Madam Speaker, I thank my NDP
colleague for her question. I think she has clearly identified
the cause and the effects.
A government that turns things upside down, that decides to
withdraw from certain fields after making sure that these fields
no longer meet the aspirations of the locals, is not entitled to
do so. It must do so according to the conditions of the people
who have been deprived of development in their region.
I have never been to Cape Breton, but I hope to go there one
day. People have said to me that solutions were put to this
government over the years.
Earlier, I spoke of the POWA.
This program existed before. It did not suit everyone, but it
was one small way this government could, with our money, with
its ever diminishing open-mindedness, meet the needs of these
people.
Well, no. It did not suit it any more, since it was good for
the people. So it withdrew it.
1725
This government has always acted unilaterally, pulling out once
it has deprived communities of their independence.
It must meet the needs of the people of Cape Breton. It must
give them a hand. It must help them. These are proud people.
They love their community and want to stay there. They are very
ingenious and have my full support. The government has got to
have a social conscience.
[English]
Mr. Peter Mancini (Sydney—Victoria, NDP): Madam
Speaker, it is interesting that in the month of January the
miners had to go underground on strike to try to get a negotiated
settlement.
It is not as if there were no precedent. One example is medical
benefits. When Via Rail was shut down, medical benefits were
provided to those employees. When CN was shut down, medical
benefits were continued for those employees. When Devco was being
closed down, the government told the miners who have gone
underground and suffered injuries and their families that there
would be no extension of any medical benefits whatsoever.
That is the kind of settlement the miners are seeking, in other
areas as well, in terms of relocation and in terms of education.
My colleague has done her homework for which I commend her. She
has a sensitive understanding of the issue. Would she not agree
that these people should be entitled to the same benefits as the
government has given to other Canadians when it phased out
industries?
[Translation]
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold: Madam Speaker, in reply to the New
Democratic Party member, I think it is obvious that they are
entitled to the same benefits as other Canadians in similar
situations.
This government will have to stop closing its eyes. It is
throwing money out the window. Billions of dollars have gone
missing. Communities have legitimate rights and the government
is denying them those rights?
I think the government is on the decline. In life, things keep
moving forward, until one day they take a turn in the opposite
direction. I think that this government is completely cut off
from the real concerns and needs of ordinary people.
The people of Cape Breton have needs that must be met. It is
the government's fault they are in this mess.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): It being 5.28 p.m., very
little time remains before we must proceed to Private Members'
Business. Is there unanimous consent to see the time as 5.30
p.m.?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): It being 5.30 p.m., the
House will now proceed to the consideration of Private Members'
Business as listed on today's order paper.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[Translation]
AUDITOR GENERAL ACT
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ) moved that Bill C-203, an act
to amend the Auditor General Act (Poverty Commissioner), be read
the second time and referred to a committee.
She said: Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to talk about the
creation of the position of poverty commissioner. On March 25,
1999, I introduced a bill to amend the Auditor General Act.
Because the session was prorogued, I reintroduced this bill and
we are finally discussing it.
When I introduced this bill last year, I had no idea that
today's debate would take place in the context of the scandal
relating to job creation at the Department of Human Resources
Development. The management of job creation programs reflects
badly on the whole Liberal government. In this context, having a
poverty commissioner would be a good thing.
Before talking about the purpose of creating the position of
poverty commissioner, I want to briefly remind the House about
poverty. The figures say it all.
1730
We can quote four sources, including the Canadian Council on
Social Development. Between 1989 and 1997, the number of
children living in poverty increased by 37.5%. In 1989, the
members of this House unanimous passed a resolution to eliminate
child poverty. Ten years later, there is a 37.5% increase,
according to the CCSD.
Campaign 2000 made the same finding: there was a 47% increase in
the number of poor children in families with an income below
$20,000, a 44% increase in the number of children living in low
income families, and a 51% increase in the number of children
living in a family relying on social assistance.
Data from Statistics Canada indicate that between 1993 and 1996,
23% of single parent families had experienced poverty for a
period of four years. Single individuals make up 19% of the
poor, and single parents 23%, a very large proportion of whom
are women. It is also reported that one quarter of the
population has experienced poverty for at least one year.
In the 18 to 24 year old group, 33% have been poor for one year.
According to the Canadian welfare council, the fourth source of
reference, four out of ten heads of single parent families are
living in poverty, as well as single individuals.
Clearly, four different sources that have analyzed the increase
in poverty among children, adults, women and female single
parents tell us that since 1989 there has been a real increase
in poverty, and this is a source of concern. Certain categories
of the population suffer more from poverty, for instance the
elderly. Although their situation has improved markedly, we are
very much aware that the older one gets the more chance there is
to find oneself poor. This is the case for those over the age
of 74. It is primarily older women who are poor, and it is said
that the proportion is twice that for men.
The situation of young people aged 18 to 24 is also cause for
concern. According to Statistics Canada, their poverty rate is
the highest of all age groups, 26% in 1995.
It is said that, after taxes, 32.5% of young people between 18
and 24 have faced poverty for a full year.
So, poverty is also expressed in terms of increased demand on
the food banks. In all our ridings, there has been an increase
in demand on the food banks, more suicides, student and family
debt, many bankruptcies and reduced savings.
I have cited a lot of figures, but behind them lies a lot of
human drama. There is a lot of economic vulnerability, even
though the growth rate is strong. Part of the public is not
entitled to the redistribution of wealth.
Too many people are kept from being full-fledged citizens. I see
poverty as being on a continuum, where, at one end, people are
extremely poor and, at the other, people are poor. Those who
are extremely poor have a hard time obtaining the essentials,
that is, food, clothing and housing. According to the UN, they
represent about 6%. At the other end, there are the people who
just manage to make ends meet at the end of the month. But
where it hurts is the lack of manoeuvring room these people have
in meeting their family's daily needs.
Here too work must be done to understand all the facets of
poverty. In our society, poverty has many faces, even though
they say we live in the best country in the world.
1735
With the present government, we have just gone through six years
of social deficits. Let me raise four points, or four government
decisions that have really contributed a great deal to the
unravelling of our social fabric.
Let us take the Canada social transfer. Provincial governments
have lost $33 billion in transfers. This is $33 billion less in
provincial coffers, but also $33 billion less in the pockets of
individual citizens. The Canada social transfer provides money
for education, health, and welfare.
I am now travelling throughout Quebec to speak about what the
federal government has done, and the drastic cuts it has made.
The sick, women, and children are those who have been hurt.
Those cuts will last until 2003. That is right, the cuts are not
over just yet. Since the government came to power, the cuts have
totalled $21 billion.
What does this mean, cuts of $21 billion, in practical terms. It
means a loss of revenue for the provinces. In Quebec, it means
we will be hiring 3,000 physicians less, 5,000 nurses less, and
5,800 teachers less. It also means that those most affected,
welfare recipients, will get $500 less.
It really hurts. Cuts in the Canada social transfer affect
individual citizens the most.
Another issue is the EI surplus. Twenty six billion dollars
were snatched back, and six unemployed workers in ten no longer
qualify for employment insurance, the new name for unemployment
insurance. The problem is that people who suddenly find
themselves out of work can no longer count on benefits that
would at least ensure them a decent standard of living until
they found another job.
Another problem the government has not had the courage to tackle
is the non-indexing of tax credits and tax thresholds. The result
is an additional $2 billion in the federal government's coffers.
This means that, between 1993 and 2001, non-indexing will have
enabled the federal government to rake in an additional
$17.59 billion.
A fourth issue is federal government funding for social housing.
This has become a matter of serious concern. If the federal
government had put more money into social housing, there would
have been 30,000 additional units in Quebec so that families had
decent housing.
The cycle I spoke of earlier in connection with poverty also
exists for those who are homeless or do not have decent, safe
accommodation, with a roof over their heads that does not leak.
During the holiday season, we saw troubling images of the
quality of housing occupied by certain people. This is a
disgrace in a country that claims to have the best standard of
living in the world. A poverty commissioner could keep close
tabs on this government.
I moved a motion in the House of Commons asking the government
to develop a concrete plan of action for the next ten years,
with full funding, not the piecemeal approach we are used to
with this government. There should also be someone in charge of
ensuring that any measure taken by this government is properly
managed, and monitoring its impact.
We are concerned about the impact of the measures taken
haphazardly by this government. It is a big machine. We are all
aware of the scandal that was just uncovered at Human Resources
Development Canada. We know how this scandal is hurting
individuals who might have benefited from government grants
awarded through HRDC.
1740
What is happening right now at Human Resources Development
Canada is nothing new. I have here an article published in 1987,
where a $1 billion black hole is mentioned. This article was
written in 1987 by a reporter saying that the way public
finances were managed had created a $1 billion black hole.
The government had introduced a tax deduction, a tax loophole
really, for businesses involved in research and development. It
was later found out that some of them had taken advantage of
this loophole but did not give anything in return, because they
had not done any research and development. There was no control
with regards to the way public finances were managed. This is
very troubling.
It is said that such things date back to the time of Marc
Lalonde, a Liberal Minister of Finance. Then came another
Minister of Finance, Michael Wilson, who wanted to put on the
brakes but realized it was too late, because the total was up to
one-tenth of the national deficit, because of these very
shortcomings, these programs and measures that are taken without
any real thought.
I could list a number of such shortcomings between 1983 and
1987. I would, however, prefer to continue with the importance
of having a poverty commissioner. There is a scandal going on
at the present time. In three weeks we may no longer be talking
about it, but we know that we taxpayers are the ones providing
the funds, and we want to ensure it is better redistributed
throughout all of society, to provide more help to those who
need it.
It is therefore very difficult to assess the effectiveness of
the federal government's actions, which is why a poverty
commissioner could put some order in all of this. Not after five
or ten years. The auditor general reports on the government's
management of various departments, but I consider that the
government distributes its largesse with excessive randomness
and lack of rigour. There is an ongoing saga of financial
shortcomings in all of this government's programs.
I have contacted the auditor general. I would have liked to
have seen him report to the House on child poverty in this
country, in light of the resolution adopted in 1989.
I asked him to assess the measures, decisions and the feedback
mechanisms proposed by the government in 1989 having a direct
impact on child poverty and to measure the effects on the
targeted clientele.
The auditor general's response was that I was raising a very
important issue, but that it was the government's responsibility
to do such an assessment itself. However, when the government
does its own assessments, we know whose desk they land on and
how difficult it is to get answers from the minister.
So, the creation of a position of poverty commissioner would set
the record straight. The Minister of Human Resources
Development is acting as judge and jury in the scandal raging at
HRDC.
When a government is under attack, it defends itself, and often
we do not get the whole picture or the whole truth.
An independent poverty commissioner could answer
parliamentarians' questions instead of getting the run around as
we are getting the run around at the moment. We in the Bloc
Quebecois want an independent auditor. This was supported by
100 of our colleagues in the House of Commons; ten members from
all parties.
My fight is not over. I have brought it here to parliament, but
I want to recruit support. I have had a lot of it, but what I
am after is to have the government see to it that public funds
are better managed. Too many people are suffering as a result.
[English]
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, I am pleased to speak to this private member's bill
presented by my colleague from the Bloc. It is a bill to amend
the Auditor General Act to appoint a poverty commissioner.
1745
The purpose of this bill is to create the appointment of a
poverty commissioner for the purpose of reducing or eliminating
poverty in Canada. The poverty commissioner would report to the
auditor general and through him annually to the House of Commons.
The bill gives the poverty commissioner powers to study the
causes and effects of poverty, to recommend courses of action to
the government, to hold public consultations and to evaluate the
effectiveness of measures taken by the federal government.
I have worked with the member and I know she has a heart of
compassion for people and a real desire to see people in distress
have some measure of assistance and have their concerns addressed
in a meaningful way. I commend my colleague for her caring and
compassion. When we are in public office we need these
perspectives in order to have practical measures to address the
concerns of a wide range of Canadians, including those who live
in poverty.
There are members in this House who have probably experienced a
measure of poverty in their own lives. Some have been more
fortunate but we all know that we are responsible to assist each
other when we are in need and in distress. This is a proposal
whereby we can be of practical assistance.
There is a point of debate here, and I welcome the opportunity
to participate as my colleague has invited us to, as to what
degree we are personally responsible to be involved in the lives
of other people. The poverty commissioner to some degree may
allow some of us as Canadians to feel that we do not have to
become personally involved in empathizing and caring for the
needs of each other because there is an official to do that. My
colleague will possibly address this concern when she makes her
summary remarks.
We would want to make sure that in taking official measures to
address the needs and concerns of our fellow citizens that we do
not forget our personal responsibility to reach out to others to
care for them, to give them that kind of person to person
assistance. That would be more meaningful than all of the
debates, studies, interventions, lobbying and papers could ever
be.
I wonder whether the member would consider adding an element to
her bill. The poverty commissioner she is proposing would also
propose, suggest and advocate ways in which we as citizens could
personally reach out to each other in a meaningful way.
As she has pointed out, there are many causes of poverty. I
would suggest that to some degree when Canadians are in
circumstances of distress, someone reaching out to them in a
personal and caring way can make a tremendous difference. The
encouragement and the interaction during circumstances of
distress can give a lift that more official measures will not do.
Perhaps my colleague would consider that as an element of her
proposed plan and of the work of the poverty commissioner.
We could get into a long debate about the definition of poverty.
I am not sure that would be particularly fruitful at this time.
At some point we would want to make some distinctions between
levels of poverty. There have been a number suggested.
There is the low income cutoff in Canada below which everyone is
considered to be of low income or in poverty. However, that
level keeps riding as the standard of living rises and perhaps is
not a measure of poverty in its truest sense.
1750
The social union and the talks between the provinces and the
federal government have suggested a market basket approach.
Poverty would be measured by an individual's or a family's
ability to afford the necessities of life such as food, clothing
and shelter.
These things can be debated. I think my colleague would agree
that is not the point she is making at this time. It is not
about splitting hairs or becoming technical in the definition of
poverty, but about a more meaningful approach in extending
practical assistance to people who are in distressed financial
circumstances. If she agrees with that, and I think she does,
then possibly at this point we could leave aside that element of
the debate.
In a country as rich as Canada, it is inconceivable that there
are not the resources to ensure that all of our citizens have the
necessities of life. My colleague has made that point very
eloquently. This country has the resources to provide people
with the necessities of life when they are unable to secure those
necessities themselves. It also has the resources to provide them
with access to education, health care, transportation, housing
and learning information because we need knowledge in order to
build skills to provide ourselves with the means to secure the
necessities of life and more.
It is a point well taken. It is disturbing that in a country
like Canada we would have to debate this in the House of Commons.
We have seen on our television screens the horrific scenes from
countries like Sudan. That is something that goes beyond poverty
to tragedy. In a country like Canada we generally do not think
in terms of that kind of need. We should not have to think in
those terms. It is important that we realistically address the
expectations we have for all of our citizens and not just for
some.
I have a suggestion for my colleague who has made this proposal
of a poverty commissioner. There needs to be measures whereby
people can move from the category of poverty to, shall we say,
more desirable circumstances.
Many of us were impoverished students at one time. We were
barely able to afford one meal a day but we knew that was
temporary. We did not consider ourselves to be impoverished
because we knew it was a temporary step before we gained the
skills and employment we needed in order to have much better
circumstances.
Similarly there are people who are new to our country and who
are becoming established. They are in very straitened
circumstances, to use an old fashioned word. Again they know it
is temporary and they look forward to entering our country's
economic life and succeeding.
There are individuals who technically but temporarily are in
poverty. However I think the member is referring to people to
whom poverty all too sadly is more or less a permanent way of
life. We need to address this in a coherent fashion. We have
piecemeal approaches, some of which, as the member pointed out,
have just recently fallen under some cloud. We want to have a
very comprehensive way of addressing serious issues like this
one.
I commend the member for her efforts. I hope that these remarks
will be of assistance to her.
Ms. Louise Hardy (Yukon, NDP): Madam Speaker, I am
pleased to participate in the debate on private members' Bill
C-203 to amend the Auditor General Act to create a poverty
commissioner.
1755
I agree with other members who have said that it is very sad we
even have to contemplate the creation of a poverty commissioner
in a country as wealthy as ours.
I want to reflect on the first international trip I made as a
member of parliament with the minister for CIDA. We went to
Jordan and Israel and into refugee camps on the West Bank and the
Gaza Strip. I had never seen or experienced poverty like that.
It was so crushing. The smell and the sight were really
appalling and shocking. All I wanted to do was turn around and
go back to my beloved country but I still had five more days to
go through those refugee camps to experience and see what those
people had to live through. There is no escape at that level of
poverty. They are walled in with security and armed guards all
around them. There is very little hope for those people.
Last spring I made a trip up the James Bay coast to various
first nations communities. I saw the poverty they were forced to
live in. It was incredibly degrading for them. They had to send
their children to a residential school. That was an incredible
symbolism of oppression and degradation for them. The school had
no fire exit and only one door. None of the fire escapes on the
four storey building functioned.
It is unbelievable that in this country people are forced to
send their children to those schools. People live three and four
generations in one home because our country will not accommodate
them in any way and help them live in dignity. The fact is that
in the first place they had been forced to move to an area that
could not sustain their traditional way of life. This meant they
could not feed their children in the way their parents had
managed to feed them. We forced them into poverty and then
abandoned them to that poverty.
Think about what is happening around us right now with the
rising cost of heating oil. For many people it could be
completely unaffordable. I do not know if any other members of
parliament have ever had to wake up in a house with no heat in
the middle of winter and know that there would not be any heat
for a long time. That is an experience of poverty which families
suffer in this country. There will be even more because social
assistance rates are very minimal. They are not adjusted when the
cost of heating oil goes up. People who need to heat their house
have to take that money out of the food money for their children.
Our first nations people suffer poverty in disproportion to
everyone else in this country. The kinds of institutions that
would help them or those living in our inner cities move out of
poverty are not there. Shamefully, our inner cities are
degenerating and there is no hope for the people to move out.
[Translation]
[Editor's Note: The fire alarm bells having sounded:]
SUSPENSION OF SITTING
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): We have to suspend the
sitting.
(The sitting of the House was suspended at 5.59 p.m.)
1815
SITTING RESUMED
The House resumed at 6.18 p.m.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Order, please. There are 30
minutes left for the consideration of Private Members' Business
and we will then go to adjournment proceedings. Thus, the
business of the House will be extended.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Madam Speaker, we must have the unanimous
consent to do so.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): According to Standing Order
30(7), and I quote:
If the beginning of the Private Members' Hour is delayed for any
reason, or if the Hour is interrupted for any reason, a period
of time corresponding to the time of the delay or interruption
shall be added to the end of the Hour—
1820
[English]
Ms. Louise Hardy: Madam Speaker, I reiterate my support
for the creation of a poverty commissioner. As well, I urge the
government to take a serious look at the causes of poverty.
We know that more women live in poverty than men. The rate of
children living in poverty has increased. Single parent families
headed by women often live in poverty. Women's wages are lower
than men's. If women want to escape poverty through education,
tuition costs have risen astronomically, which makes it even more
difficult for women to achieve higher education unless they have
the goodwill and financial help of their families to carry them
through.
The poverty commissioner would evaluate the effectiveness of
measures taken by the federal government to reduce and eliminate
poverty, and advise the federal government on measures it could
take to reduce or eliminate poverty.
With the change from unemployment insurance to employment
insurance we have a very successful method of redistributing
wealth to those who are in need and have paid insurance to cover
the losses when they are unemployed.
However, outside of that strip along the southern U.S. border,
where most Canadians live, there are those of us who live in
remote, rural areas who work in extreme climates where employment
is seasonal. We were disproportionately affected by the changes
to employment insurance. In Yukon alone it meant a reduction of
$7 million. That money was not coming into our area because
people were no longer eligible for employment insurance benefits.
There are similar stories across the country in every single
riding.
I would like to comment on something the Reform member said
about creating a poverty commissioner, how it would somehow take
away from an individual's ability to reach out in a personal way
to help those around them. With the cuts we have seen, people
have been trying to look after each other in very practical ways,
especially in the areas of education and health care. However,
even at the height of the cutbacks there was no lack of people
looking out for each other. It never took away an individual's
initiative to help someone, to see someone in need and go the
extra mile for them. Creating a poverty commissioner would not
disempower a single Canadian from taking the initiative to help
someone else, to mentor them so they can then become responsible
members of our community.
I would like to end by quoting a very respected former member of
this House, J. S. Woodsworth, who said “What we desire for
ourselves, we wish for all”. To this end, may we take our share
of the world's work and the world's struggles.
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Tobique—Mactaquac, PC): Madam
Speaker, I am pleased to rise on behalf of the Progressive
Conservative Party to join the debate today on this bill which
would establish a poverty commissioner.
In January of this year the PC Party released the report of our
task force on poverty. Set up last March, the task force held 16
public meetings across Canada to listen and learn about the
causes, the effects and possible solutions to the growing problem
of poverty.
We proposed 41 recommendations, which will be considered at our
policy convention in May. These recommendations focus on fixing
the problems, not allocating blame.
Our task force was set up because the government refused to
agree to a joint parliamentary committee to study the problem of
poverty, as proposed by one of my colleagues last year during a
day-long debate on the issue.
Poverty is a cause of despair among Canada's disadvantaged,
while the growing threat of poverty is a source of insecurity for
its middle class. It is clearly time to move forward on this
issue.
The task force report of my party presents a menu of proposals
to start addressing the problems of poverty. Poverty is not a
choice for many Canadians; however, poverty comes with a high
cost to all Canadians. It is a major social and economic problem
which denies our great country access to millions of Canadians
who, due to circumstances, cannot contribute to the growth of our
great nation.
1825
The direct economic costs totalled billions of dollars in income
support and other programs. The indirect economic costs could be
even higher since poverty compromises the realization of Canada's
potential as an innovative, competitive and prosperous nation in
our new global economy. The human costs are immeasurable.
Poverty is a fact of life for almost one in five Canadians.
What is most alarming is the growing number of children living in
poverty. These children are starting life at a disadvantage.
Our task force was told that those who are born poor are at
greater risk than children from higher income families of
experiencing poverty right through their adulthood.
Today many children are going to school hungry. Children are
also part of the growing number of homeless people in Canada. In
some of our wealthiest cities the use of food banks is growing at
an alarming rate.
The return on investment in preventing and reducing poverty in
Canada would be tremendous. The economic and social well-being
of all Canadians would be improved. Our task force was told that
each dollar invested today in programs to reduce and eliminate
child poverty could result in future savings of up to $7.
There are no easy solutions to poverty, but it is time to
recognize and deal with this growing problem. The successful
implementation of an anti-poverty strategy requires a mechanism
by which results can be measured and governments held
accountable.
Internationally, Canada has been measured and found wanting in
dealing with the issue of poverty.
Our task force talked to Canadians about the need for a social
audit. We proposed that a Canadian social audit be conducted by
an arm's length agency similar to the auditor general, the
privacy commissioner and the information commissioner, including
representation from all Canadian governments and all sectors of
Canadian society. We are proposing that the social audit agency
be appointed by and report to parliament. The social audit
should include a mechanism for public input and the results of
the social audit should be made public. This would help
Canadians determine how well their social programs are working
and would give us a tool in developing workable solutions to the
problem of poverty in Canada.
The bill we are debating today proposes a similar mechanism.
The bill would establish a poverty commissioner under the
auspices of the Auditor General Act. The poverty commissioner
would analyze the causes and effects of poverty in Canada,
evaluate the effectiveness of measures taken by the federal
government to reduce or eliminate poverty and advise the federal
government on measures it could take to reduce or eliminate
poverty.
The poverty commissioner would be a senior officer reporting
directly to the auditor general and would report annually to the
House of Commons as the Commissioner of the Environment and
Sustainable Development does now.
Canada currently participates in an international social audit
led by the United Nations committee on economic, social and
cultural rights, which is charged with monitoring and reporting
on countries' compliance with the international covenant on
economic, social and cultural rights. Canada ratified the
covenant in 1976 with the written agreement of every provincial
and territorial government in Canada. By signing this agreement
Canada explicitly recognized in particular the right of every
Canadian, as outlined in Article 11, to “an adequate standard of
living for himself and his family, including adequate food,
clothing and housing, and to the continuous improvement of living
conditions”.
The international covenant requires periodic reviews of Canada's
compliance with the agreement. In 1986 a group of independent
human rights experts formed the United Nations committee on
economic, social and cultural rights, which was created to
develop a meaningful system of supervision to monitor countries'
compliance. The Canadian report is prepared by a
federal-provincial-territorial committee of officials responsible
for human rights legislation in Canada. The UN committee reviews
the reports, questions government officials and seeks input from
Canadian NGOs. Then it publishes its own conclusions and
recommendations.
The last report was critical of Canada and its lack of progress
in implementing this covenant. Specifically, the United Nations
committee report noted that:
—since 1994, in addressing the budget deficits by slashing
social expenditure, the State Party has not paid sufficient
attention to the adverse consequences for the enjoyment of
economic, social and cultural rights by the Canadian population
as a whole, and by vulnerable groups in particular....The absence
of an official poverty line makes it difficult to hold the
federal, provincial and territorial governments accountable with
respect to their obligations under the Covenant.
1830
Under international law we are obligated to take action to
improve the standard of living of our poorest citizens. We do
not need international experts telling us that it is time to deal
with this problem. It makes more sense for Canadians to judge
how well the social needs of Canadians are now being met.
It is clear that a domestic social audit for Canada would be an
invaluable tool to determine the effectiveness of our social
programs in meeting the needs of all Canadians. As our task
force stated in its report, it is up to us to start working
together to build a road from this poverty. An arm's length
poverty commissioner or social auditor could give the government
invaluable guidance in targeting Canada's social programs to make
them as effective as possible.
I feel kind of sad that the bill is a non-votable bill because
it is an extremely good one. I assure the Bloc member that we
support the motion even though it is non-votable. If it were a
votable item, my party and I would surely support this kind of
bill.
Ms. Bonnie Brown (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Human Resources Development, Lib.): Madam Speaker, the hon.
member for Québec has introduced an interesting bill aimed at
putting into place under the auspices of the auditor general a
poverty commissioner who would report directly to parliament
annually.
The commissioner's task would be to analyze the causes and
effects of poverty in Canada, to evaluate the effectiveness of
federal measures to reduce poverty and to advise on measures that
could be taken to reduce or eliminate poverty.
We should recognize that this function would not be at all in
keeping with the mandate of the auditor general. For one thing,
the task would confer an advocacy role on the office, which
conflicts with the requirement for the auditor general to remain
completely objective.
In fact, the Government of Canada has already in place what
amounts to a de facto poverty commissioner. Some 30 years ago,
in 1969, the federal government established the National Council
of Welfare. Since then the council has published regular poverty
profiles and further advises the Minister of Human Resources
Development on matters of concern to low income Canadians. Unlike
the proposed poverty commissioner, the National Council of
Welfare enjoys and activates its advocacy role.
Let me assure the House, however, that the Government of Canada
shares the hon. member's concerns for the poor. Much of the
agenda of the government has been directed at creating the
economic conditions and building a social safety net that
protects all Canadians. The government has recognized from the
beginning that an effective social safety net must be built on
strong fiscal management and a sound economy. In the final
analysis, the best way to reduce poverty is through a strong
economy delivering opportunities to all Canadians.
In addition, the Government of Canada has been taking direct
action to strengthen the social safety net and thus reduce
poverty. The 1999 budget increased cash transfers for all
provinces over the next five years, including $11.5 billion for
health care and $5 billion in equalization payments. As well,
$850 million was invested in the national child benefit in 1997.
A subsequent $850 million in increases announced in 1998 by the
federal government will provide substantial support to low income
families with children. Moreover the government is committed to
a third significant increase in July 2001.
Our employment programs help groups such as people with
disabilities, youth, Canadians in areas of high unemployment and
people who want to go back to school to get more skills.
Aboriginal people have access to a number of programs, including
help to increase their education. Centres are being created to
reach out to street youth to provide support and counselling. The
aboriginal human resource development strategy has a new urban
component to focus on the unemployment of and training needs of
aboriginal people in urban areas.
These initiatives and the issues they were designed to address
serve to illustrate a point that is pertinent to the discussion
of Bill C-203. We have to remember that poverty is a
multi-jurisdictional issue. It is painted in many different
colours across the country and varies over time.
Many initiatives of many governments impact on the issue of
poverty. We must remember that the federal government does not
hold all the levers of social policy. We share them with
provincial and territorial governments.
That is why a concerted co-operative effort of all the players is
required to mount an effective campaign to reduce poverty across
the nation.
1835
The national child benefit is one example of a joint effort by
the federal, provincial and territorial governments to support
families and reduce child poverty. By July 2000 the federal
government will have increased the Canada child tax benefit to
$1.7 billion and, for their part, our partners in the provinces
and territories are investing in complementary programs and
services.
Yet another example of effective co-operation is the strategy
that has been developed concerning Canadians with disabilities,
an issue that is also related to poverty. All governments came
together to release a document called “In Unison: A Canadian
Approach to Disability Issues”. It establishes a blueprint for
full citizenship for people with disabilities. It will focus
long term policy development on three interrelated building
blocks: disability support, employment and income.
I cite these initiatives to illustrate the point that in a
multi-jurisdictional society like Canada poverty is an issue that
must be dealt with through a partnership such as the social
union. Poverty is a concern to all levels of government, as well
it should be, but no one government acting alone can be expected
to succeed in eliminating it.
I believe that the introduction of the bill has served a useful
purpose in focusing the attention of the House, and we hope the
Canadian public, on the subject of poverty. Let us hope it will
serve to hurry the development of transjurisdictional policies
and strategies to achieve our common goal of eliminating poverty
across the country.
[Translation]
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Madam Speaker, first of
all, I wish to thank members who took part in the debate. It is
a shame that we did not have more than one hour to discuss a
problem as serious as poverty.
I will reply to the first question by the Reform Party member,
who said that a poverty commissioner is no substitute for the
assistance that the public should provide to the less fortunate.
I could not agree more that a poverty commissioner is no
substitute for what each one of us should be doing to help those
in need. However, a poverty commissioner is one means by which
parliamentarians could keep tabs on what this government is
doing.
I find most unfortunate the remarks of the Liberal member, who
has rhymed off a long list of programs that have an impact on
poverty. This is precisely the problem: we are not able to
measure the full impact of all these measures. The HRDC scandal
has made that abundantly clear. There were programs to help
certain areas in various regions. We know how the money was
spent and how effective the programs were.
I find the self-serving remarks by the Liberal Party member an
even greater incentive to call for the creation of a position of
poverty commissioner. The type of management under the Liberal
government, the management of the Department of Human Resources
Development, is not a recent development; it goes back some
years. In 1987, a journalist wrote an article about this
government's tax measures; in his view, those measure were
catastrophic. So it is one failure after another. It is a
massive machine, I agree. We should not be commenting on the
track record over five years. This should be done every year for
every measure. I think there has to be a better assessment of
what should be done and what is being done.
I have heard from several national groups in Quebec and in
Canada, who support the creation of a position of poverty
commissioner.
It was mentioned that such a resource does not exist. We talked
about the Canadian Council on Social Development, which gives
advice to the government, but the poverty commissioner would
have much more authority and would have greater access to the
government's management than any outside consultant.
1840
While the figures provided by the CCSD are relevant, a poverty
commissioner could ensure government effectiveness. He could
give advice to the government and he could even hold public
consultations to assess the situation.
I am very concerned. It may be that, ten years from now, I will
no longer sit in the Canadian parliament. However, I am
concerned about the fact that ten years ago we were deploring
the way in which the government was managing public finances.
This year, we have a scandal with Human Resources Development
Canada, and we know that some communities are being excluded
from these federal grants because things are done very much at
random.
We could use the examples from Human Resources Development
Canada and from the billion dollar gap created in 1983 by a few
measures adopted by the then Liberal government.
This year, when we say we need more money and families can not
make ends meet, it is precisely because there were not enough
watchdogs to keep a eye on public finances. It is about time
that parliamentarians decide to put their financial house in
order and that the government's wealth is available to share
around.
The problem is not that there is no money. What is important is
how that money is spent and to what end. When policies are
developed to prevent tax avoidance, when some companies which
are are friends of the ruling party have better access to
government grants, it is time to worry.
Unfortunately, I have used up all the time available to me to
talk about such an important issue as increased poverty.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The time provided for the
consideration of Private Members' Business has now expired.
Since the motion was not selected as a votable item, the item is
dropped from the Order Paper.
ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
[English]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to
have been moved.
HEALTH
Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parkdale—High Park, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, epidermolysis bullosa or EB is a group of rare and
debilitating genetic skin diseases in which the skin and mucous
membranes are so sensitive that the slightest touch may cause
painful blistering. EB is a lifelong disease often present at
birth, which causes severe physical, emotional and financial
hardships for the affected persons and their families.
There are two types of EB, non-scarring and scarring. The
non-scarring type varies in form from the severity of seasonal
blistering in the hands and feet to widespread blistering during
much of the year. In some cases blisters appear over 75% of the
body inside and out.
Even the mildest form can transform simple tasks such as walking
and typing into impossible ordeals. Open sores and blisters that
heal slowly if at all characterize the most severe form of EB.
This continuous blistering leads to scarring causing
disfigurement and immobilization of fingers, toes, arms and/or
legs. Blisters that form in the mouth, oesophagus, throat and
stomach cause serious complications leading to secondary
infection, anemia and malnutrition, general debilitation, cancer
and premature death.
When I think of EB I think of the courage displayed by those who
suffer from EB. I think of the pain and frustration, the shame,
the guilt and the toll it takes on one's self-esteem and
self-confidence. I think of the parents of children such as the
Foreman family whose son Quinn was diagnosed when he was five
weeks old. Approximately 70% of his body was covered in
blisters.
Through Mrs. Foreman's letters I have come to understand how
their lives were turned upside down. Due to the lack of
awareness by both the public and the medical profession, the
diagnosis for Quinn was very slow in coming. For nearly five
months Quinn was fed through a syringe because his mouth and
throat were completely covered with blisters, but this child's
suffering did not end there. He lost all his fingernails and
toenails.
1845
It seemed as though every time Quinn was picked up by one of his
parents, he received a new blister. From then on the only time
his parents picked him up was to feed or change him.
Mrs. Foreman describes the hardest part of this ordeal was
having to break the blisters and bandage him up as if he were a
burn victim. This process took approximately two hours every
day.
When I think of EB and EB sufferers, I think of the almost total
lack of services and support offered to those who live with this
disease every day. I think of the measures taken by parents
seeking a miracle which often involves going to the United States
or abroad, where governments have invested in research into this
illness and have attempted to treat its symptoms with procedures
such as apligraf.
The parents of these infants are provided with little
information, if any at all, about the disease at birth. A
diagnosis is rarely arrived at easily.
When I think of EB, I think of my constituent Kevin Campbell.
Both Kevin and his sister inherited this disease. Kevin is a
perfect example of the hidden potential and ability that people
with EB possess. If it were not for Kevin's initiatives to raise
awareness of EB for all Canadians who suffer from it, there may
not be the Dystrophic Epidermolysis Bullosa Research Association,
more commonly known as Debra Canada. And I would not have joined
this fight to raise awareness of EB in the House of Commons.
Living with EB means being engaged in a never ending battle to
educate. My question is for the Minister of Health. What steps
are being taken by his department to encourage and facilitate
research and development into the cure and treatment of Canadians
suffering from EB?
[Translation]
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Madam Speaker, on behalf of the health minister,
I would like to thank our hon. colleague from Parkdale High Park
who raised the issue of epidermolysis bullosa with both
sensitivity and competence.
As she pointed out, it is a rare genetic disease. It
dramatically affects a number of our fellow Canadians. That is
why the federal government is willing to help Canadians
suffering from this disease and to improve the health of the
whole Canadian population.
[English]
Through the Medical Research Council of Canada, the federal
government is funding biomedical and clinical research expertise
on skin diseases across Canada. The foundation of knowledge that
these men and women are building will give the researchers of
tomorrow the building blocks necessary to find cures on such
conditions as EB.
To further its commitment to health research, the federal
government proposed the creation of the Canadian institutes of
health research.
[Translation]
Over the next few months, a number of health research institutes
will be created and each institute will put in common the
expertise of Canadian health searchers all across Canada. Just
imagine for a moment how great it would be to bring your child,
for example, to a hospital which would be linked to a Canadian
Institute of Health Research. Then you would know that the
physicians examining your child would be able to benefit from
the expertise of searchers located anywhere in Canada and
working in every field of health research.
Physicians linked to such an institute would have direct access
to the most recent and relevant data, whether it be the latest
developments in the area of biomedical research on that disease
or other related diseases.
That would be more reassuring than the current situation and
your child's health would be in good hands.
Therefore I encourage our colleague to continue—
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I am sorry, but I have to
interrupt the hon. parliamentary secretary.
GASOLINE PRICES
Mr. Guy St-Julien (Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
I rise tonight on behalf of Canadian consumers who, for months,
have been paying high prices for gasoline, diesel fuel and
heating oil.
Those who are at home having dinner or on the road, as well as
truck drivers who are working, wonder why the price at the pump
of a litre of gas is so high. The only reason it is so high is
because people do not know what the price would be if it were
not for the federal, provincial and other hidden taxes.
1850
Last Friday, I watched a program with Paul Larocque on TVA in
Quebec City. On this program, Denis Dauray, from Les Pétrole Maurice,
called for a real inquiry into the oil market in Quebec and
Canada.
He is asking for concrete measures from the federal government
and the Government of Quebec. This is what I am asking for
tonight on behalf of consumers, of people who are at home
tonight, of those who are in their truck working and of those
who are driving to work.
I am demanding that the Government of Canada take concrete
action in co-operation with provincial and territorial
governments, towards the reduction of the federal excise tax, a
uniform reduction of the road tax in Quebec and the restoring of
a special monetary subsidy on the price of fuel oil for families
that have used this product since December 1, 1999. It would be
in force for four months.
It would be the same thing the President of the United States
just gave several Eastern States. In Nova Scotia, steps have
been taken in that direction.
My question for the industry minister is the following: Why can
we not strike as soon as possible, in February or March, a real,
public inquiry into petroleum markets? It must not be conducted
behind closed doors, as all studies have.
What we are asking for, and the request comes from consumers, is
a real public inquiry that will include—and we must not forget
them this year—independent producers, in order to shed light on
the production costs of a litre of gas, of a litre of diesel and
of a litre of fuel oil.
We want concrete action because we want to know what is really
going on in the Canadian petroleum industry, and we want to know
as soon as possible. That is what consumers want.
[English]
Ms. Bonnie Brown (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Human Resources Development, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I thank my
colleague for bringing the issue of increases in gasoline, diesel
and home heating prices to the attention of the House.
Just last week following a question from the same member, the
Minister of Industry asked the petroleum industry to meet with
him so as to explain the reasons for recent diesel fuel price
increases in particular.
The fact is that all members of the government are concerned
about this issue since we all represent consumers.
The federal Competition Bureau must ensure that prices are
determined by market forces and that the provisions of the
Competition Act are respected. I can assure the hon. member that
if the Competition Bureau finds that companies or individuals
have engaged in anti-competitive conduct, it will not hesitate to
take immediate and appropriate action under the Competition Act.
The fact is that no federal agency has the authority to directly
regulate retail prices except in emergency situations. Consumers
who may be asking the hon. member to have gas prices regulated
should take their message to the provincial governments.
Presently only Prince Edward Island and Quebec have elected to do
so in some manner.
Finally, we must remember that there are also outside factors
influencing the price of fuel. Such factors include cutbacks by
OPEC in crude oil production, an increase in demand for heating
fuels and low levels of stocks in industrialized countries.
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Madam Speaker, on October
26, 1999, I warned the House and the Minister of Human Resources
Development about the disastrous situation of seasonal workers.
Alain Boudreau, a young seasonal worker, is getting $50 a week
in EI benefits because the method of calculation takes only his
last 26 weeks of work into account. If the calculation were
based on a year, Alain would receive $272 in benefits. This
makes a world of difference for a young person starting out.
1855
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources
Development answered this:
Mr. Speaker, we have to remember that EI is not an industry or a
business. It is an income support program for those who qualify.
Mr. Beaudreau does qualify under the Employment Insurance Act,
but he only gets $50 a week. The parliamentary secretary added:
Those who are eligible apply for it and receive benefits based
upon the earnings they have been taking home from the jobs they
have had.
If the calculation were based on a year, Alain Boudreau would
get $272. For the government to believe that, when people
qualify and get $50 in employment insurance benefits, it is an
industry or a business is maddening. I wonder what is and
industry or a business when the Minister of Human Resources
Development gave away $300,000 of taxpayers money to relocate a
company from Hamilton to Brant, in her own riding. That is an
industry.
A company like Wal-Mart, which has millions and does not need
money, was able to get $500,000 from the government to build a
warehouse in Canada. Now, we very well know that this building
would have been built here anyway and that Wal-Mart did not need
money from the government.
How can the government say in this House that workers who have
lost their jobs consider employment insurance as a business?
They do not control jobs. They are not responsible for losing
their jobs. Their employer is. Workers have no control over
that.
Yet, the government rewards employers by giving them $300,000
here and $500,000 there. The Prime Minister sold one of his
businesses in his riding to a friend who did not have the money
to pay and who later got money from the government.
This employer bought the business from the Prime Minister, who
later got his money. While such scandalous practices are going
on in our country, the government refuses to help people like
Alain Boudreau, who receives $50 a week, and who has been
accused of seeing employment insurance as an industry.
This is unacceptable. This is why I ask the government, the
minister and the parliamentary secretary to examine their
conscience and consider changes to employment insurance—
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I am sorry to interrupt the
hon. member, but his time is up.
[English]
Ms. Bonnie Brown (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Human Resources Development, Lib.): Madam Speaker, let me
begin by denying the allegation. No company was transferred from
Hamilton to Brantford because of any HRDC programming. I also
want to say that the company known as Wal-Mart received no HRDC
funding. If the member would like to talk to me about that
afterward, I will be happy to go into the details.
We are helping young Canadians like Alain Boudreau every day.
Unlike the member opposite, we do not want to increase his EI
benefits. Rather we want to encourage him to have the
opportunity to access a good education and then a good job. That
is precisely what we are doing.
We invest $155 million every year to help young people get on
the job experience. As well we provide assistance and advice on
how to enter the workforce. We offer various types of financial
assistance so that young Canadians can have access to a good
education and get a good job.
I remind the member that employment insurance is a temporary
income support program for people who are between jobs. It has
programs to help unemployed people return to work as quickly as
possible.
It is not a needs based program. It is not like the social
assistance programs run by the provinces. Rather, it is an
insurance program. Those who are eligible apply for it and
receive benefits based on the earnings they have been taking home
from the jobs they have had.
EI is also about helping Canadians get back to work through a
reinvestment of about $800 million in re-employment benefits. In
addition, the Canada jobs fund was introduced to help create
lasting jobs in high unemployment regions. We introduced an
hours based system that addresses the special nature of seasonal
work which often involves large numbers—
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I regret to interrupt
the hon. member but the time has expired.
[Translation]
The motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been
adopted. Accordingly, this House stands adjourned until tomorrow
at 10 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 7 p.m.)