36th Parliament, 2nd Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 51
CONTENTS
Thursday, February 17, 2000
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
1005
| CANADA TRANSPORTATION ACT
|
| Bill C-26. Introduction and first reading
|
| Hon. David M. Collenette |
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Transport
|
| Hon. David M. Collenette |
1010
| Library of Parliament
|
| Mr. Raymond Lavigne |
| PETITIONS
|
| Charter of Rights and Freedoms
|
| Mr. Eric Lowther |
| Dangerous Offenders
|
| Mr. Eric Lowther |
| Taxation
|
| Mr. Eric Lowther |
| Criminal Code
|
| Mr. Nelson Riis |
| Senate
|
| Mr. Nelson Riis |
| Goods and Services Tax
|
| Mr. Nelson Riis |
| Criminal Code
|
| Mr. John Solomon |
1015
| Labelling of Genetically Engineered Foods
|
| Ms. Hélène Alarie |
| Criminal Code
|
| Mr. John O'Reilly |
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Mr. Yvon Charbonneau |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| SUPPLY
|
| Allotted Day—Legislative Committee on Bill C-20
|
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Motion
|
1020
1025
| Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand |
1030
| Mr. Yvan Loubier |
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
1035
1040
| Amendment
|
1045
| Mrs. Pauline Picard |
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
1050
| Hon. Don Boudria |
1055
1100
1105
1110
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
1115
1120
| Mr. Jay Hill |
1125
| Mr. Grant Hill |
1130
1135
1140
| Mr. John Bryden |
| Mr. Gilles-A. Perron |
| Mr. Gilles Bernier |
1145
| Mr. Eugène Bellemare |
| Mr. Benoît Sauvageau |
1150
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
1155
1200
1205
1210
| Mr. John Bryden |
1215
| Mr. Benoît Sauvageau |
1220
| Mr. André Bachand |
1225
1230
1235
1240
| Mr. John Bryden |
1245
1250
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
1255
1300
| Mr. Paul Mercier |
1305
| Mr. Dennis Gruending |
1310
| Mr. Odina Desrochers |
1315
| Mr. Mac Harb |
1320
| Mr. Bernard Patry |
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
1325
1330
1335
| Mr. Rick Casson |
| Mr. Benoît Sauvageau |
1340
| Mr. Claude Drouin |
1345
1350
| Mr. Ghislain Lebel |
| Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien |
1355
| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| HEALTH
|
| Mr. Ovid L. Jackson |
| CORRECTIONAL SERVICE CANADA
|
| Mr. Myron Thompson |
1400
| FLAG DAY 2000
|
| Mr. Hec Clouthier |
| STUDENT SUMMER EMPLOYMENT
|
| Mr. Raymond Lavigne |
| STOCKHOLM INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE
|
| Mr. Irwin Cotler |
| GOVERNMENT GRANTS
|
| Mr. Inky Mark |
| ACADEMY OF MOTION PICTURE ARTS AND SCIENCES
|
| Mr. Rick Limoges |
1405
| THE ECONOMY
|
| Mr. Mac Harb |
| HEALTH CARE
|
| Mr. Grant McNally |
| SNOW SCULPTURE
|
| Mrs. Pauline Picard |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Bill Graham |
1410
| CREDIT UNIONS
|
| Mr. John Solomon |
| BILL C-20
|
| Mrs. Pierrette Venne |
| THE LATE ANGUS MACLEAN
|
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
| NORTHERN SCIENTIFIC TRAINING PROGRAM
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| FISHERIES AND OCEANS
|
| Mr. Mark Muise |
1415
| AMATEUR SPORT
|
| Mr. Alex Shepherd |
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
1420
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| HERITAGE CANADA
|
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Sheila Copps |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Sheila Copps |
| Mr. Pierre de Savoye |
| Hon. Sheila Copps |
1425
| Mr. Pierre de Savoye |
| Hon. Sheila Copps |
| GASOLINE PRICES
|
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
| Hon. John Manley |
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
| Hon. Ralph E. Goodale |
1430
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
| Mr. Paul Crête |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Paul Crête |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Paul Forseth |
1435
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Paul Forseth |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Stéphan Tremblay |
| Mr. Stéphan Tremblay |
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
1440
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| PARENTAL INSURANCE
|
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| IMMIGRATION
|
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
| Hon. Elinor Caplan |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Jim Hart |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Jim Hart |
1445
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mrs. Michelle Dockrill |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mrs. Michelle Dockrill |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Jean Dubé |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Jean Dubé |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| PULP AND PAPER INDUSTRY
|
| Mrs. Marlene Jennings |
1450
| Hon. Gilbert Normand |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. Dick Proctor |
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
| NATIONAL DEFENCE
|
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
1455
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| HOUSING
|
| Ms. Raymonde Folco |
| Hon. Alfonso Gagliano |
| ANTIPERSONNEL MINES
|
| Mr. René Laurin |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| NATIONAL DEFENCE
|
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
1500
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| PRIVILEGE
|
| Oral Question Period
|
| Mr. Pierre de Savoye |
| POINTS OF ORDER
|
| Oral Question Period
|
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
1505
| Parliamentary language
|
| Mr. Jay Hill |
| Mr. Pierre de Savoye |
| BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
|
| Mr. Chuck Strahl |
1510
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| SUPPLY
|
| Allotted Day—Legislative Committee on Bill C-20
|
| Motion
|
| Mrs. Francine Lalonde |
1515
1520
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
1525
| Mr. Claude Drouin |
| Mrs. Francine Lalonde |
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
1530
1535
| Mr. Derek Lee |
1540
| Mr. Reg Alcock |
1545
1550
| Mr. Dennis Gruending |
1555
| Mr. René Laurin |
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Ms. Raymonde Folco |
1600
1605
1610
| Mr. René Canuel |
| Mr. Gilles Bernier |
1615
| Mr. Rahim Jaffer |
1620
1625
| Mr. Reg Alcock |
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
1630
| Mr. Gilles Bernier |
| Ms. Val Meredith |
1635
1640
| Mr. Dennis J. Mills |
1645
| Mr. Gilles Bernier |
| Mr. John Bryden |
1650
1655
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
| Mr. Richard Marceau |
1700
| Mr. Paul Crête |
1705
| Mr. Yvon Charbonneau |
1710
1715
| Division on amendment deferred
|
| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
1720
| VETERANS HEALTH CARE
|
| Mr. Peter Goldring |
| Motion No. 13
|
1725
1730
| Mr. Bob Wood |
1735
1740
| Mr. Réal Ménard |
1745
1750
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
1755
1800
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
1805
1810
| Mr. Peter Goldring |
1815
| ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
|
| Fisheries
|
| Hon. Charles Caccia |
1820
| Mr. Denis Paradis |
| Taxation
|
| Mr. Grant McNally |
1825
| Mr. Brent St. Denis |
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 51
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Thursday, February 17, 2000
The House met at 10 a.m.
Prayers
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
1005
[Translation]
CANADA TRANSPORTATION ACT
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.) moved for
leave to introduce Bill C-26, an act to amend the Canada
Transportation Act, the Competition Act, the Competition
Tribunal Act and the Air Canada Public Participation Act and to
amend another act in consequence.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
[English]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
TRANSPORT
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I apologize for being so rusty on the rules, but
under the first order of business I neglected to table, in both
official languages and pursuant to Standing Order 109, the
government's response to the Standing Committee of Transport
report on the restructuring of Canada's airline industry,
fostering competition and protecting the public interest.
1010
I would seek unanimous consent to allow me to table that
response.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Does the minister
have the unanimous consent of the House to table the response?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
[Translation]
LIBRARY OF PARLIAMENT
Mr. Raymond Lavigne (Verdun—Saint-Henri, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if
the House gives its consent, I move that the first report of the
Standing Joint Committee on the Library of Parliament, which was
tabled in the House on December 16, 1999, be concurred in.
This report sets out the mandate of the committee, its quorum
and its entitlement to sit during sittings of the Senate.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is there unanimous consent
for the hon. member to move the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
* * *
[English]
PETITIONS
CHARTER OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
have a number of petitions to present this morning, and one from
petitioners right across the country. There are many hundreds of
names.
The petitioners call on parliament to retain in the preamble of
the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms the reference to the
supremacy of God.
DANGEROUS OFFENDERS
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
second petition has been signed by people all across the country.
They are calling for the protection in law of children from
pedophiles and sex offenders. They want the law for these
situations to be strengthened.
TAXATION
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): The next
petition, Mr. Speaker, calls for a relief from the burden of
income tax that families have to bear in the country. The
petition contains many hundreds of signatures.
I will be tabling all these petitions this morning.
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
NDP): Mr. Speaker, it is my honour to present a petition,
pursuant to Standing Order 36. The petitioners are all from
Kamloops.
They are calling on the Government of Canada to amend the
criminal code to prevent persons convicted of serious crimes from
being released from custody pending the hearing of their appeal,
except in exceptional circumstances.
SENATE
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
NDP): Mr. Speaker, my second petition is also from the people
of Kamloops, who are calling on the Government of Canada to
simply abolish the Senate.
GOODS AND SERVICES TAX
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
NDP): Mr. Speaker, it is a particular pleasure for me to
present this next petition. As you can see by the petition
itself, Mr. Speaker, this is not a prop. This is a petition
bearing thousands and thousands of names, maybe 20,000 names, of
people from Kamloops who are concerned about the GST.
They are suggesting that if we are going to have a tax reduction
in the upcoming budget, we should phase out the GST so that
everyone benefits from the tax reduction: children, people on
low incomes and people with fixed incomes. They feel that every
single Canadian would benefit from a reduction in the GST;
whereas if we simply reduce the income tax only people who pay
income tax will benefit. This is the fairest way to reduce
taxes. Thousands of people in the great city of Kamloops are
calling on the government to do just that.
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. John Solomon (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to present a petition this morning,
pursuant to Standing Order 36, on behalf of many constituents as
well as people from across Canada, including Kamloops, British
Columbia.
These Canadians are concerned that the Criminal Code of Canada
makes it too easy for people, who have been convicted of serious
crimes, such as murder, attempted murder, sexual assault and
manslaughter involving imprisonment greater than five years, to
obtain release from custody pending the hearing of their appeal.
The petitioners are asking the House of Commons and the
Government of Canada to amend the Criminal Code of Canada to
prevent persons convicted of these serious crimes from being
released from custody pending the hearing of their appeal except
in exceptional circumstances.
I think many Canadians would support this particular petition.
1015
[Translation]
LABELLING OF GENETICALLY ENGINEERED FOODS
Ms. Hélène Alarie (Louis-Hébert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased
to rise, pursuant to Standing Order 36, to present a petition
signed by 1,581 constituents from my riding.
The petitioners call on Parliament to move quickly in order to
pass legislation making mandatory the labelling of all foods
that are wholly or partially genetically modified.
This is one more in a series of similar petitions signed by
thousands in my riding and in the ridings of a number of other
members who have presented similar petitions in the House.
[English]
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. John O'Reilly (Haliburton—Victoria—Brock, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I am pleased to present a
petition from the people of Haliburton, Minden, Tory Hill and
Wilberforce.
The petitioners call on parliament to direct the Department of
Justice to vigorously defend section 43 of the criminal code and
to terminate all funding for this case under the court challenges
program. They request parliament to affirm the duty of parents
to responsibly raise their children according to their own
conscience and beliefs and to retain section 43 of Canada's
criminal code as it is currently worded.
* * *
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I ask that the remaining
questions be allowed to stand.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[Translation]
SUPPLY
ALLOTTED DAY—LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE ON BILL C-20
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ) moved:
That this House instruct the Legislative Committee on Bill C-20,
An Act to give effect to the requirement for clarity as set out
in the opinion of the Supreme Court of Canada in the Quebec
Secession Reference, to hold public hearings in all regions of
Quebec and Canada so as to hear as many witnesses having an
interest in the Bill as possible, that the hearings be broadcast
and that the Committee be given sufficient resources to hold such
hearings, all in accordance with the rules and practices of the
House.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: I rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
I simply want to draw to your attention and to the attention of
the members of this House that the Bloc Quebecois leader will be
sharing his time with the hon. member for Beauharnois—Salaberry
and that all the Bloc Quebecois members who will rise afterwards
will also be sharing their time.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: Mr. Speaker, we are moving this motion
today, the day after the committee began its proceedings on Bill
C-20. As we know, this bill deals essentially with two things:
the alleged clarity of the question and the percentage or
majority required.
Overall, this is a bill that seeks to deny the rights of the
National Assembly, which has held referendums under its own
rules in the past. I am referring to the two referendums on
sovereignty, in 1980 and 1995, and to the referendum on the
Charlottetown accord, in 1992, when a Liberal government was in
office in Quebec. The federal government is now questioning
these eminently democratic exercises.
As for the issue of clarity, it is somewhat surprising to think
that the members of the House of Commons, 75 of whom come from
Quebec and 226 from the other provinces, are better able than
the members of the National Assembly to determine the clarity of
a question.
1020
Moreover, we know that two thirds of the members from Quebec,
representing the people of Quebec and democratically mandated to
do so, oppose this bill. Those who think they speak on behalf
of the Quebecers should look at those who represent them in this
place and note that they represent only a third of the Quebec
delegation in the House of Commons.
One wonders how people from Moose Jaw, Regina, Halifax,
Vancouver or Toronto would be in a better position to determine
the clarity of a question than people from Chicoutimi,
Tadoussac, Laval, Quebec City, Montreal, Trois-Rivières or Hull.
This sort of thing is rather insulting.
What makes no sense is the fact that the government claims these
people would be more able to determine what makes the question
clear, but refuses to let the committee consult these people
across Quebec and Canada to see whether the bill is clear.
There is more than an apparent contradiction here. There is a
real one.
Why do they want to consult everyone in Canada when Quebecers
have to decide their future, but refuse to let the people of
Canada and Quebec be consulted when the time comes for the House
to pass this bill?
On the subject of clarity, let us look at the latest referendum.
On the eve of the referendum, I heard the Prime Minister say in
a speech to the people, as he looked them in the eye with the
camera focussed on him so that everyone could see his alleged
sincerity “The question is clear: if you say yes, you leave; if
you say no, you stay”. I was not the one saying that, it was
the Prime Minister of Canada.
That evening, I said to myself that it was really clear, that if
the Prime Minister understood, if the member for Saint-Maurice
understood, a lot of people understood.
I find that rather contemptuous of the 94% of Quebecers who took
part in this very democratic process. That day, apparently 94%
of the people went to vote without having any idea what they
were doing. That is extraordinary. Those who voted no
apparently understood, and those who voted yes, apparently did
not know what they were doing.
And what about all those Canadians who flocked to Montreal to
take part in a love-in, thanks to Canadian Airlines' generosity—a
$100 fare from Vancouver to Montreal, but not the other way
around? Was the question not clear when all these folks came to
Montreal to tell us that they loved us? Was the question not
clear when they all rushed panic-stricken to implore us not to
leave?
I have to wonder about the reasoning. Did these people come for
nothing, or was it perhaps that what was not clear was how much
they actually loved us. Now that is something else again.
An hon. member: Yes.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: Finally, I looked at the question asked in a
referendum held under the auspices of the federal government in
the Lac-Saint-Jean region, for the Montagnais, I believe.
There are two questions, but only one possible answer. It is
not possible to answer yes to the first and no to the second.
There are two questions, but it is yes or no to both; it is not
possible to answer yes to the one and no to the other, or vice
versa. There are three paragraphs, some 250 words referring to
a few pieces of legislation, to some regulations about an
agreement that is not included.
The federal government talks to us about clarity. In this
referendum, and I am thinking of the other point about this
bill, there is a 50% plus one rule. In this referendum, they
will accept 50% plus one of the votes, a clear majority, an
absolute majority, as they say in the book.
That is exactly what we are saying. You know what an absolute
majority is, Mr. Speaker. It is more than half of the votes,
50% plus one. That is what a majority is.
A majority was good enough in the Lac-Saint-Jean referendum for
the Montagnais. A majority was good enough for Newfoundland in
1948. What was good enough for Newfoundlanders or the
Montagnais is not good enough for Quebecers?
Yesterday, I listened to the Minister of Intergovernmental
Affairs. He should realize that his bill accords more importance
to a federalist vote than a sovereignist one. The vote of the
Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs would carry more weight
than mine. Is not everyone equal before the law?
Yesterday, when I heard him get upset and talk to my colleague
from Beauharnois—Salaberry in a familiar tone, saying “How can
one assume there would not be any negotiations?”
1025
With the contempt he showed yesterday, talking to a colleague
with such familiarity, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs
reminded me of Pierre Elliott Trudeau, when he was the Minister
of Justice here in Ottawa. At the time, he addressed the then
Quebec Premier, Daniel Johnson senior as “the member
from Bagot”. Daniel Johnson replied by calling him “the member
from Mount Royal”. That is what it was, the same kind of
slightly contemptuous attitude that the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs displayed yesterday.
He said that we could not take for granted that he would not
negotiate. But what are we to expect from someone who talks
about clarity but is unable to set a threshold, which could be
different from 50% plus one in his view? He wants clarity, but
he says “Listen, let us first have a referendum, and then, in my
greatness, I will tell you whether the result is acceptable or
not”. It is rather disturbing for his students. I wonder if, as
a professor, he used to tell his students “Write the exam first,
I will decide if you made the grade later. I will let you know
whether the passing mark was 60%, 75% or 80% and will determine
if my question was clear enough”.
This is what he told us and is telling us. He talks about
clarity, but it was quite extraordinary to see the attitude he
displayed yesterday. Of course we have to assume that he does
not want to negotiate when we know that he will not even tell us
what the required percentage is. How can we trust anyone who
acts as judge and jury? This is what the minister is doing,
acting as judge and jury.
He used some arguments, when answering a question from my
colleague and critic for the Conservative Party, the hon. member
for Richmond—Arthabasca, who was asking “The Bloc members, are
they not afraid of losing their pension?” Why, as members, would
we would not be entitled to our pension if they are? He need not
worry, when the federal members' pensions is the only thing left
to negotiate, we already know who we will choose as our two
negotiators: the Prime Minister of Canada and André Ouellet.
They have a major interest in negotiating theirs. I can assure
you of that, Mr. Speaker, and I trust them in terms of
negotiating their pensions.
I think the minister is currently moving in circles where others
have moved in the past. It is very easy, as a Quebecer, to
become a very popular minister in English Canada, as he is
currently. As for the two solitudes, he personifies both of
them, and could be called a hero in English Canada in Quebec.
He certainly does not represent the people of Quebec. Now this
is easy, it is what is expected from Quebec politicians; they
are very popular in English Canada when they are used to stifle
Quebecers. This is what he is doing and it is shameful.
For all these reasons, it seems to me that it would be normal—and
my colleague will get more specific—to let the committee travel
in every region in Canada and Quebec to meet people. All the
other opposition parties agree with that. We differ on the
bill's content, but certainly not on the need to consult
Canadians and Quebecers in order to bring some clarity in this
confused legislation.
Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand (Québec East, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I thank my
leader for speaking out on this issue of the utmost importance
for Quebec.
I would like to ask him a question regarding the fact that there
are Liberal members from Quebec who are taking part in this
attack on Quebec.
1030
I would like to know what he thinks of members who were elected
for the Liberal Party in Quebec and who support Bill C-20.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: Mr. Speaker, first of all, they have the
right to have an opinion that is different from ours, but they
should have the courage of their convictions and come to Quebec
to explain their position. That is what I think.
Some of them are here today. It would be interesting if they
took part in this debate and asked questions, but it would
appear that they are not going to do so.
I remember the patriation of the Constitution in 1982. Out of
the 75 federalist members representing Quebec, at that time,
only two expressed their opposition, namely Roch LaSalle, a
Conservative, and Mr. Duclos, a Liberal, who had the courage of
his convictions and told his party “No. I refuse to play the
role English Canada is asking me to play in Ottawa. I represent
Quebecers.
I am not a pawn to be used by those who want to impose their
will upon us”. We remember that the federal Liberals had the
lesson of their life in the following election. Since then, they
are a minority in Quebec. They paid for what they did.
I hope that, in the next election, voters in Canada will realize
that the time has come to have people other than Liberals to
represent them in Ottawa. I agree with the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs and the Prime Minister when they tell
us that they will not negotiate after a yes victory in Quebec.
They are right, because Canadians will send other people to
negotiate on their behalf. The work of Liberals will be
finished. They will have failed.
Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I
thank our leader, the hon. member for Laurier—Sainte-Marie, for
this fine sortie against Bill C-20.
I would like to know his impressions on one specific issue. If,
in 1995, during the referendum debate in Quebec, the National
Assembly had passed such a bill against the federalist vote,
limiting it so that it would have less weight than the
sovereignist vote, what would people have thought of the
National Assembly and of its Parti Quebecois members?
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: Mr. Speaker, we did not, and would not, do
such a thing, because of our respect for democracy. For us it
is a matter of one person, one vote. Everyone is equal in the
eyes of the law.
It would have been most extraordinary, if we had said “Votes in
sovereignist ridings hold more weight than those in federalist
ridings. Let us weight them differently, arrange things so that
it passes, and then we will let people know the outcome. Vote
first and then we will tell you the outcome. We will concoct
one”. That is what they are telling us.
This makes no sense. The same goes for clarity. If the
question had been “Do you want Quebec to become a sovereign
country?” and then the whole debate had centred on partnership,
they would have said “Aha, there was a trick in it. You
referred to a partnership.
You did not dare put it in the question”. Damned if you do, and
damned if you don't, as they say. We are used to that here.
Quebecers have wakened up. Let Canadians do the same, and open
their eyes to the fact that the Liberals are misinforming them
about Quebec. Let them send their own representatives to talk
to Quebecers, equal to equal. Let them respect the fact that
Quebecers are a people, just as they are. We are neither
superior nor inferior. For once in this whole business, we want
to speak together on an equal footing, with the same status, not
inferior and not superior.
We will never be the first country in the world. There is no
such thing. This is a ridiculous illusion.
We want to have our country, like the Canadians have theirs.
Perhaps then we will be able to get along as friends, which we
have trouble doing while under the same roof.
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I also
rise on behalf of the Bloc Quebecois to support this motion I
will move an amendment to, at the end of my remarks, and to
explain that Bloc Quebecois members really want Quebecers and
other Canadians to have the opportunity to be heard on Bill C-20.
1035
We have made this request repeatedly in the House. It has always
been refused by the Prime Minister, the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs and the Leader of the Government in
the House.
We tried again in the committee Bill C-20 was referred to. The
Liberal majority rejected this proposal, which was supported by
the three other opposition parties.
For the last time in this House, we would like to try to
convince the government members that Canadians should be given
the opportunity to air their views on this bill, whether they
agree or disagree, in a place where it will be easier for them
to do so, that is in their own town or city, in the town hall or
community centre where they usually take an active part in the
democratic process.
My remarks will deal with the undermining of democracy by Bill
C-20, but also by the process by which the government wants to
have it passed.
The architect of this bill, the Minister of Intergovernmental
Affairs, does not like it when we tell him about the
undemocratic nature of his bill. Nor does he like it when we
talk about the extremely undemocratic nature of the process,
which is under way, whereby this bill will be considered and
passed by the House of Commons.
I want to talk about the undemocratic nature of this. I am not
shy to talk about it, and I believe a great majority of
Quebecers share this view. In this respect, we, of the Bloc
Quebecois, are very representative of what Quebecers think both
about this bill and about the process by which the House wants
to have it passed.
When we think of it, this bill is undemocratic because the
democracy it is creating will disallow what the national
assembly and the Quebec people decide. This is also democracy
that gags the work of the House and the work of the committee
considering Bill C-20. Let me explain.
This is a democracy of disallowance, a sick democracy because it
wants to disallow the national assembly, to disallow a national
assembly that always had the privilege and the authority to
adopt a question, to decide what Quebecers would be consulted
on, to frame a question which was debated by the national
assembly for 35 hours, which was debated by majority and
opposition parties, sovereignist and federalist parties, and
which was finally adopted by the assembly, the seat of the
sovereignty of the Quebec people, who must continue to freely
decide its own future.
Bill C-20 would allow the House of Commons to disallow a question
adopted by the national assembly.
Despite all the rhetoric about the respect of the national
assembly's right to determine the content and wording of the
question, this bill confirms the right of the House of Commons
to determine that a question adopted by the national assembly is
not clear.
The House of Commons tells and, in a way, orders the national
assembly not to ask a question dealing with a mandate to
negotiate, or referring to an economic and political partnership
that Quebec would generously offer Canada.
Such a democracy is a democracy that disallows the jurisdiction
and prerogative of Quebec, its national assembly and its people
when it comes to deciding its future and how to shape that
future.
1040
While a breach of the national assembly's prerogatives is very
serious, a breach of the Quebec people's sovereignty is even
more serious because under this bill the federal government
could challenge a majority vote by which the Quebec people would
have decided to have its own country.
Indeed, Bill C-20 is totally confusing in that respect, the very
opposite of the principle of clarity it proclaims. For instance,
clause 2(2) sets out a number of criteria that give no clear
indication of what would constitute a real majority.
This democracy disallows the people of Quebec and the choice it
would make in a referendum. As the Premier of Quebec said a few
days ago, such a bill shows the will of the government to give
this House a true power of disallowance and reservation
regarding resolutions passed by the national assembly and
decisions made by the Quebec people.
This is unacceptable, it is undemocratic and we will repeat it
both in this House and in committee. We will have no reservation
denouncing Bill C-20 as an undemocratic measure.
This democracy is also characterized by closure.
The Leader of the Government in the House will not like to hear
us say that, seeing as he introduced time allocation motions to
end to the debate on the bill before the House after only a few
hours of debate at second reading, when only seven members from
the Bloc Quebecois had the opportunity to speak.
That gag order introduced by the government House leader is
unacceptable and all opposition parties condemned it at the
time of the vote. A democracy that gags debate on such an
important bill for the future of Quebec people and in fact all
Quebecers and other Canadians is a very troubled democracy
indeed.
We can see the same kind of closure attitude and democracy in
the committee that was set up to study the bill. At its very
first sitting, members were informed that only 45 witnesses
would be heard. Quotas were imposed on the parties. Each party
is allowed to call in a certain number of witnesses: 15 for the
Liberal Party, 12 for the Reform Party, 10 for the Bloc
Quebecois and 4 for the Progressive Conservative Party and
the NDP. We were even refused the right to inform the
citizens of Canada and Quebec that hearings were being held and
that the committee was prepared to hear their views and receive
their briefs. The work of the committee was gagged.
Today, we know that the government is determined to move extremely
quickly and to steamroller the opposition even though it represents 62% of
Canadians in this House. The Bloc Quebecois represents a lot
more Quebecers than the majority government party.
On behalf of my party, I want to move an amendment to the
motion. I move:
To conclude, I will cite the August 1998 opinion of the Supreme
Court of Canada. In reference to democracy, the supreme court
said:
No one has a monopoly on truth, and our system is predicated on
the faith that in the marketplace of ideas, the best solutions
to public problems will rise to the top. Inevitably, there will
be dissenting voices. A democratic system of government is
committed to considering those dissenting voices, and seeking to
acknowledge and address those voices in the laws by which all in
the community must live.
1045
There are many dissenting voices concerning this bill. There is
a clear majority of dissenting voices. The government should
listen to these dissenting voices and withdraw Bill C-20.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The amendment is in
order.
[Translation]
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I would like
to congratulate my colleague from Beauharnois—Salaberry for his
speech and thank him for enlightening us on the underhanded
dealings by the government in its efforts to deny the basic
rights of the people of Quebec.
Subclause 3(2) of Bill C-20 contains an unacceptable threat to
territorial integrity and a threat whose intent is to limit the
right of the people of Quebec to freely choose its status and
its political future.
I would like to ask my colleague from Beauharnois—Salaberry: in
Quebec whose task it is to set the terms of its authority over
all parts of its territory?
Mr. Daniel Turp: Mr. Speaker, when we realize that the bill
talks of borders in the clause my colleague has cited, we truly
understand that the issue of borders is raised not to enlighten
Quebecers on what will happen, but to frighten them, to intimate
that the territory of Quebec may likely or possibly be
partitioned.
Although the minister has said—and he repeated it yesterday—that
it is perhaps a matter of border correction as was the case in
Slovakia or in other countries that achieved sovereignty, I am
pleased to note that bill 99, currently being debated in the
Quebec National Assembly, reaffirms the Quebec consensus on this
matter, which involves all provincial political parties, be they
the Parti Quebecois, the Quebec Liberal Party or the Action
démocratique.
This bill reaffirms that Quebec's territorial integrity must be
preserved and that all the political party leaders are unanimous
in saying that, in the event of separation, Quebec must keep its
borders.
I think that this is a healthy thing. In most, all—I should
say—of the recent cases of declaration of independence, even
those involving minorities or native populations, the new
republics of the USSR, Yugoslavia or Slovakia, for example, kept
their borders. This makes good common sense.
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I thank my
colleague for covering all aspects of this bill, which flouts
democracy in Quebec and in Canada. It is a disgraceful con job.
1050
The member for Beauharnois—Salaberry also explained that there is
another piece of trickery going on and that is the choice of
date. We must remember the strategy used shortly before
Christmas, and the impact this choice of date had on democracy.
The public was not consulted. They mention 45 groups. They
seem to want to flaunt the fact that 45 groups will be appearing
before the committee. They think that 45 groups will do, but
there is also a need for the public to be made aware of the
impact of this bill.
Mr. Daniel Turp: Mr. Speaker, my colleague is giving me an
opportunity to inform the House, if it is not already aware,
that it is very difficult to interest witnesses in appearing
before the committee on such short notice. Since it began its
work, the committee has had great difficulty getting witnesses
to appear.
There were supposed to be witnesses yesterday evening, and none
appeared. Some were scheduled for 9.30 this morning, but the
first were heard at 10.15 a.m. We have no agenda for this
afternoon because no witnesses could be recruited. I do not
know what is on the agenda for tomorrow or next week.
The haste with which the government wishes to proceed is an
affront to Canadian democracy, which usually permits
parliamentary committees to give citizens notice and invite them
to appear and present briefs, which in many other instances has
allowed committees to travel abroad, in Quebec and Canada to
hear from witnesses.
The prognosis for democracy in Quebec and in Canada is not good.
That is why we want this bill withdrawn.
Should Bill C-20 be passed anyway, it will not have any
legitimacy because 60% and maybe more of federal members from
Quebec will have voted against it.
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to take part in
today's debate, even though, basically, it is sad to have such a
debate.
It is sad because the Bloc Quebecois moved this motion for a
somewhat artificial purpose, under the pretence of a procedural
debate. However, as we just heard, on the substantive issue,
they of course want to start the debate on Bill C-20 all over
again, a debate they did not really participate in because they
wasted the time of the House by wanting to table press clippings
and old newspaper articles, and by resorting to other similar
tactics.
Today's motion from the Bloc Quebecois reads as follows:
That this House instruct the Legislative Committee on Bill C-20,
An Act to give effect to the requirement for clarity as set out
in the opinion of the Supreme Court of Canada in the Quebec
Secession Reference, to hold public hearings in all the regions
of Quebec and Canada—
Presumably, this means of Quebec and of the rest of Canada, but
this is how the motion is worded.
The government is opposed to this motion which would instruct
the legislative committee on the bill to hold public hearings
outside Ottawa. Why? First, because the goal of the Bloc
Quebecois is not to make the committee travel to hear more
witnesses.
Its objective is to cause unreasonable delays. We already have
plenty of evidence to that effect.
Bloc Quebecois members tried to table in this House close to 300
press clippings, 300 articles from old newspapers. They
preferred to do that instead of hearing themselves talk. One
must conclude that what they had to say was not very important
since, instead of making speeches, they resorted to such
manoeuvres in a futile attempt to attract the attention of the
media and of Canadians.
1055
Second, one cannot say that the parliamentary committee is not
doing its work properly. To start with, the members sitting on
this committee are doing excellent work. They are all members
who take this whole debate to heart.
Moreover, the witnesses appearing before the committee are of
great quality. Of course, there are those who choose not to
invite witnesses they want to be able to say that these
witnesses could not be heard. For example, the committee is
hearing today from Mr. Lebel and Mr. Castonguay. They are not
just anybody.
I am not saying that I will agree with all the witnesses who
will appear before this parliamentary committee, but there are
people who have something to say, important things to say,
presumably, and who will appear before the committee.
I might add that the committee hearings will be televised and
that all Canadians will be able to watch them.
[English]
All hon. members are aware of the real agenda behind this
motion. It is not to enable more Canadians to testify before the
legislative committee. Bloc members have admitted that they are
not even using all the time slots available to them now to
produce witnesses, so how can they claim that they need even
more? It is not to hear from witnesses.
[Translation]
Finally, I have to mention something important. I heard some
members of the Bloc say a few days ago that certain witnesses
will not be able to appear before the committee in Ottawa.
However, these very same witnesses, at least several of them,
and many others came in Ottawa a week ago to insist on being
heard by the parliamentary committee. Now they claim that they
cannot come to Ottawa to be heard by the committee. It is
absurd. It is still the same distance to come to Ottawa as it
was last week. How can we take them seriously when they are
saying that it will be impossible for these witnesses to be hear
d?
[English]
No, the real agenda is to do anything but have an open
democratic review of this bill. The real agenda is to stall Bill
C-20. We have proof of that. Anyone who has watched the House
of Commons over recent months will know. When members of
parliament try at least 300 times to waste the time of the House
by tabling old newspaper clippings instead of making speeches, it
is quite obvious what is going on. The agenda is to kill the
bill.
[Translation]
I pointed out to the House leader of the Bloc Quebecois that the
way the legislative committee conducts its business depends,
first, on the committee's recommendation and, second, on the
House's decision. As I noted, regarding the selection of
witnesses, Standing Order 113 says that the committee is
empowered to examine the bill and to hear as witnesses people
who have a technical expertise to offer.
The government wanted to be as flexible as possible by offering
members of this House the opportunity to use a definition of
these witnesses on technical matters that is broad enough to
allow the people to participate fully in this process, as long
as some members of this House do not, of course, use this as an
excuse to slow down the work of the parliamentary committee.
I also noted that, because Bill C-20 affects all men and women in
Canada, whether they live in Quebec or elsewhere, its
proceedings should be televised so that all those who wish to do
so, since 80% or 90% of Canadians who have access to cable
services, can watch the witnesses appearing before this
parliamentary committee.
1100
[English]
I also responded to a letter from the leader of the Conservative
Party who claimed that he wanted to propose a reasoned amendment
to improve the bill. One does not need to be a student of
parliamentary procedure for too long to know that a reasoned
amendment does not amend the bill. A reasoned amendment amends
the motion of the bill. It can only do one thing, kill the bill.
This is from time immemorial. It is in all of our procedural
documents. The bill would disappear after a reasoned amendment
was carried which is what the leader of the Conservatives
offered. The bill would disappear from the order paper. That is
on page 640 of our procedural manual.
[Translation]
Nor does the government intend to do what the Conservative Party
leader asked for.
The legislative committee agreed to hear witnesses from all over
Canada, witnesses such as the Minister of Intergovernmental
Affairs who yesterday made an excellent presentation before the
parliamentary committee. Almost all Canadians, whether they
live in Quebec or elsewhere, will be able to watch that
presentation and many others on television. The media can also
air excerpts in their news reports.
An hon. member: That's something new.
Hon. Don Boudria: The hon. member across the way says it is new.
It is not something completely new, but it is nevertheless an
exception for a parliamentary committee—
An hon. member: An exception?
Hon. Don Boudria: If the hon. member wants to hear the answer,
he should listen. If a committee is televised, it is an
exception, nevertheless, something that happens by order of the
committee chairs in collaboration with the whips.
An hon. member: Several committees are televised.
Hon. Don Boudria: This does not happen with more than one
committee at a time. Anyone who comes to parliament regularly
knows how things work in parliament. In general, there can be
only one parliamentary committee at a time with access to the
room prepared for televising.
This matter has been in the public domain since the supreme
court's opinion on the reference, in August 1998. The hon.
members over the way cannot, therefore, claim that this is
something new, something about which the Canadian public knew
nothing.
It will be remembered that even the premier of Quebec
congratulated the supreme court at the time. He said he was
delighted with the court's decision.
Let us remind ourselves of what the supreme court said in this
decision. It said that it was up to the political actors, to
the elected representatives, to determine what constituted a
clear majority in the case of a referendum. The court chose to
add the word clear, a question that should be clear or
unambiguous. These then were the two criteria established since 1998.
When certain members claim, as one just has, that the contents
of the bill introduced in the House on December 13 last were
unknown until then, they are not acting very seriously. The
supreme court opinion had been known of since 1998, so there was
nothing new about it.
Furthermore, they are not acting very seriously either in
claiming simultaneously that this bill was introduced on
December 13 and that the House is pushing it through too quickly
on February 17 of the following year. The members across the
way are not acting very seriously, and they are well aware of
this.
1105
Members will remember that other bills have been passed in this
House and elsewhere a lot faster.
I would like to remind the House why this government believes
that we should pass Bill C-20. It is a vital issue for our
country. The Government of Canada must play an important role to
follow up on the requirement for clarity as set out by the
Supreme Court of Canada in its opinion dated August 20, 1998.
It is our duty and our obligation to say which factors will be
considered when the time comes to decide if we must negotiate
the separation of one province from Canada. Obviously, like most
Canadians and Quebecers, I hope this will never happen.
The Bloc members accuse us of having no respect for the National
Assembly of Quebec and the population of Quebec. Since when is
it undemocratic to ask for clarity? The members opposite say
that they respect democracy. Yet they refuse to accept the
result of two democratic referendums. They say “Till next time.
See you soon” or something to that effect.
The members opposite say “It is not a problem if the public does
not share our views. We do not have to respect democracy when
the answer is not the one we want. When it is the one we wish
for, it is a different matter”. And they claim to be great
democrats.
We are not the ones who launched this debate. It is not the
Government of Canada. It is not the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs nor the Prime Minister of Canada nor
the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons. It is not
the Government of Canada who is seeking to destroy the country.
However, we said that we would discuss the matter and give the
House a role in the decision to undertake negotiations on the
secession of a province in the unlikely event—an event I hope
will never happen—that a province wanted to leave this beautiful
country, which the United Nations has been determined is the
best in the world.
We would like very much to put aside the debate concerning
another referendum on secession, but the separatist leaders in
Quebec refuse to do so.
An hon. member: We have to talk about the Americans, the French
and the Germans.
Hon. Don Boudria: I just heard a member on the other side
talking about the United States, France and other countries. It
is rather interesting, because the United States of America and
France are both indivisible countries. And yet, the members
opposite say that “other countries are indivisible, but Canada
can be divided”, even if people say that Canada must stay
together and have said so twice in Quebec. But they do not care
about that.
Is the Bloc afraid of asking Quebecers whether or not they wish
to separate from the rest of Canada and become an independent
country? Yes, of course. The member opposite just said so.
An hon. member: We are not afraid.
Hon. Don Boudria: The members opposite have proven that they are
afraid to ask a clear question and to obtain a clear answer.
That is why we have always had ambiguous questions in the past.
They were questions 70 and 120 words long to ask Quebecers “Do
you want to separate, yes or no?”
An hon. member: In my riding, 94% of the voters said yes and you
claim that they did not understand? This is really incredible.
Hon. Don Boudria: I see that some members opposite are reacting.
They are free to do so.
A province's separation is too serious and too irreversible for
our government to undertake negotiations leading to secession
without its being sure that this is what the people really want.
The Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs spoke of this in his
December 13 speech. The more serious the decision, the more it
must have the unanimous support of society. This has been a
principle of democracy from day one. It is so strongly
entrenched that even people's organizations say that it takes a
two thirds majority to change their bylaws.
1110
The Prime Minister has spoken of this. He even referred to
groups such as hunting and fishing clubs, unions or other
organizations, which require substantial majorities before their
bylaws can be amended.
An hon. member: The Montagnais too.
Hon. Don Boudria: However, the people opposite are trying to
tell us that the people of Quebec were able to say no to their
proposal twice, even if the question was totally ambiguous, even
if the members opposite tried to confuse the people. With a yes
vote, they could break up the country, even though the supreme
court has said this is not the way to go about it. This is what
the members opposite claim.
No, this is not the way to break up a country. Naturally, in
any case, the people of Canada, whether they live in Quebec or
elsewhere, do not want to break up this country. Canadians want
to keep it whole.
I was born in Quebec and am a Franco-Ontarian by adoption. I too
want this country to remain whole—
An hon. member: Oh, oh.
Hon. Don Boudria: Yes, I hear the comments by the members
opposite. I heard them again, as I have often heard them in the
past, on the subject of francophones outside Quebec. This
happens often—
An hon. member: Your language, your culture.
Hon. Don Boudria: —among the Bloc Quebecois element, contempt for
francophones outside Quebec—
An hon. member: That is false.
Hon. Don Boudria: —is often heard. We heard it again a few
minutes ago in this House. I do not like that.
I am used to it a bit, but we know the source of it.
It always comes from the same source naturally. The people
opposite will not manage to break up the country. Neither will
they kill off francophones outside Quebec with the disdain
Mr. Maurice Dumas: That is wrong.
Hon. Don Boudria: —they so often display, even today.
The clarity bill sets out the circumstances in which this House
would say that the government of Canada would be required to
undertake the negotiation of the separation of a province from
Canada.
Of course, we all want the country to remain united and strong
as it is now. The bill is reasonable. The government has imposed
a reasonable approach. Day after day, we have witnessed the
delaying tactics used to hold up the bill.
Then, we moved it on to the next stage. We let it go unto the
Order Paper about two months ahead of proceeding to the next
stage, again in order to let the people take part in the
process.
I would like to take this opportunity to remind the leader of
the Bloc that, in 1997, when we were considering the
non-denominational schools amendment, he said that the creation
of a parliamentary committee not a travelling committee because
the Bloc refused to hear about that was a stalling
antidemocratic tactic and an affront to the democratic process.
This held up the bill for five days.
There is nothing time wasting or antidemocratic about the
process being followed by this government. On the contrary, we
want the public to be involved; we want parliamentarians to be
involved. This is why we used a reasonable approach under the
very capable leadership of the Minister of Intergovernmental
Affairs.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am
happy because we will get to the bottom of some things.
First of all, as far as linguistic school boards are concerned,
let me remind the government House leader that there was
unanimity at the Quebec national assembly. Through its national
assembly, Quebec had the power to determine the structure of its
schools because, as far as I know, education is a provincial
jurisdiction.
Ottawa wanted to teach us a lesson and said “No, no; maybe they
do not understand properly in Quebec. We are going to show them
how things are done”.
1115
For those people across the way, a consensus is not enough; the
unanimous consent of the national assembly is not sufficient.
This time, things are very different because the Quebec
government is opposed to the measure. That is why the situation
is not the same. Let us compare what is comparable.
Second, some people say we look down on Francophones living
outside Quebec. I have heard that very often. It is absolutely
false. Maybe we have talked about the Reform Party, but we have
also talked on several occasions about the sovereignists.
Francophones outside Quebec have rights simply because they
exist and not because Quebec is part of the federation. They
will never serve as hostages in negotiations with Quebec. English
Quebecers have rights in Quebec, not because Quebec is
part of the Canadian federation, but because they do have rights
and these rights will be respected.
I submit to the hon. member that he should fight in the other
provinces so that francophones outside Quebec enjoy the same
rights as anglophones in Quebec. He should support the Montfort
battle instead of making false accusations here.
Third, as regards unions, the member's former colleague was the
president of a central labour body in Quebec. I was with the
CSN, where a change to the constitution required a vote of 50%
plus one.
If a union wants to leave a central labour body, there
is a so-called period of union raiding. The hon. member is not
familiar with the Quebec legislation, but his colleagues from
Quebec should be. Every two or three years, a union can leave
and join another central labour body.
The ultimate way to effect a change is when the Department of
Labour, which is more or less the supreme court of labour
relations, imposes a vote in which the absolute majority
applies, that is the 50% plus one rule. The hon. member knows
that.
An hon. member: Let us talk about the vote.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: I am not talking about the vote. Obviously
the CEQ did not engage much in raiding activities, because it is
involved in the education sector. But when a vote is taken at
the labour department, the 50% plus one rule applies.
Mr. Yvan Loubier: He does not even know what was going on at the
CEQ. He was totally out of it.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: The hon. member is talking about the
signature of cards. A distinction must be made.
The hon. member was not involved in the organization at the
grassroots level, he was president. I worked at the grassroots
level.
When we sign the cards, it is 50% plus one. But when things are
not clear, the department wants clarity, and it is 50% plus one
of the persons participating.
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Speaker, first, the member refers to the
constitutional amendment on school boards, claiming it enjoyed
unanimous support among the people. Of course, I do not know too
many issues enjoying unanimous support, which was certainly not
the case for this amendment, event though it was a good one.
Second, the member claims that parliamentary unanimity means
that the Constitution may be circumvented. He says, for
instance, that such a constitutional amendment does not need, or
hardly needs, the agreement of the Parliament of Canada. He
knows full well that a constitutional amendment must be ratified
by a resolution of the proper legislative assembly, in this case
the National Assembly of Quebec, and of course by both Houses of
the Parliament of Canada.
Because a constitutional amendment only concerns one province in
particular does not mean that it should not be ratified by the
Parliament of Canada. It had to be done, and it was done with
the support of members across the way. It was necessary,
therefore. At the time, even ministers from Quebec came and
testified before the committee. Mrs. Marois was one of them.
I have dealt with that point and would like now to deal with the
issue of francophones outside Quebec since it has just been
raised by the leader of the Bloc Quebecois, who said that
francophones—
An hon. member: Assimilated.
Hon. Don Boudria: I am being accused of being assimilated. This
is the theme raised a while ago and one the Bloc leader has just
renounced.
We, the francophones outside Quebec, the Acadians, the Ontarians
and all the other, have been called all kinds of names, but we
are used to it. We do not like it, but we are used to it. We
know those people.
An hon. member: Turncoat.
Hon. Don Boudria: According to the Bloc members across the way,
francophones outside Quebec are turncoats.
1120
My point is this. For members opposite to suggest that somehow
Quebec is not the motherland of French speaking Canadians
throughout Canada is to negate their very existence.
I am an Ontarian, and I recognize the importance of Quebecers
and of the French culture in my country. How could I do
otherwise? How can members opposite tell me Quebecers' culture
has no significance for francophones outside Quebec? It is
nonsense, because we do know the importance of Quebecers for us
and for our own survival. I never would have thought that Bloc
members would suggest the opposite.
[English]
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I listened with great interest to the hon. House leader
of the government on this very important issue.
I want to begin my very brief comments by saying that the Reform
Party, as the official opposition, supports the bill. We support
this initiative by the government, but we do not support fast
tracking it. We see no need for that.
Very seldom do we see a situation where all four opposition
parties agree. In this case, at the special legislative
committee formed to study Bill C-20, when meeting to discuss
setting the agenda for the committee, all four opposition parties
agreed that the committee should travel to seek the widest
possible input from Canadians on this issue of importance. I
find it ironic that the Prime Minister, before Christmas, touted
Bill C-20 as an extremely important bill for Canada, for the
national unity of our country, and yet the Liberal members on the
committee said “It is not all that important. There are only
three clauses. It is no big deal. We do not need to have much
input from Canadians. We will hold committee hearings here over
the next week or week and a half and we will ram it through. No
problem”.
I ask the hon. government House leader to address this concern
of all Canadians. Why, when all opposition parties say the
committee should be allowed to travel, in particular to Quebec,
is the government refusing?
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Speaker, first, let us remember
what happened. The bill was tabled in the House on December 13.
We all know that the bill was put in the public domain at that
time. The supreme court reference was on August 20, 1998.
Things are not being discovered five minutes prior here. This is
something that is progressing and it is an issue which has been
in the public domain for a long time.
When we tried to introduce the bill last fall, the House was
greeted with all kinds of dilatory motions to stop the bill from
proceeding. Newspaper clippings were tabled and hours and hours
of House time were wasted. It is not the government which acted
in an unreasonable way.
Finally, the bill was tabled. The Minister of Intergovernmental
Affairs made an excellent speech in the House at the beginning of
the debate. The very first item of business for the House to
consider when we returned in February was this bill. It has a
very high priority. It is an important issue.
That does not mean the bill is very long. That is a different
proposition. It does not have hundreds of pages and thousands of
clauses. It is not a bill which is very lengthy to study or
read, but it is important. Those are two different concepts
which some people seem to confuse when it suits them.
We have had several hours of debate. We have had stalling and
more stalling in the House. Then we put the motion for time
allocation.
Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand: Talk about closure.
1125
Hon. Don Boudria: We did not propose to do the bill under
closure, with three readings in one day. We had one reading and
then we sent it to committee. We are listening to a maximum of
45 witnesses. That is a very, very large number, as witnesses
go. We will have several days of listening to witnesses. The
government is behaving in a very reasonable way. Then of course
we will have report stage and, finally, third reading.
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, this is my
opportunity to express, once again, the official opposition's
support in principle for the so-called clarity bill.
I want to address the big issues which the official opposition
wanted to address with this bill. First, we felt that it could
be improved in terms of its clarity. The journalists in this
country have named it the so-called clarity bill for good reason.
There are some areas that could be improved.
Second, we felt that the idea that this could be established by
a few people in a room somewhere is old fashioned politics. We
wanted to have the broadest consultation possible. This was a
strategic decision that we made.
We also felt that some of the issues that were being put forth
in the bill—and there are four of them—could be expanded. We
wanted to make sure that all the issues were addressed; the
major, important issues.
Finally—and this is the area that I think the bill completely
misses—we wanted to put forward things that could improve this
federation, to stop the eternal and infernal battle that the bill
addresses.
I listened carefully to the House leader say that he felt it was
reasonable to move time allocation at second reading and to
shorten the committee process because the Bloc was doing things
to slow down the whole process of parliament. That is
legitimate. My colleagues in the Bloc have done everything they
can to slow down the work of the House. However, I know that the
government never approached the Bloc to say “If you stop this we
will allow the broadest consultation to take place”. That, to
my mind, would have been the reasonable, prudent course to take.
The government should say “We understand you are really against
this, but this is so important that we will allow the broadest
consultation to take place”. That is the sort of thing we would
expect.
Here we are as the allies of the government on the bill. It is
very rare for all opposition parties to want to consult broadly.
Maybe we have different motives in doing that. Maybe some would
want to inflame passions. Maybe others would just want to have
this very well debated throughout the country so that everyone
would know whether this was the right way to go. I hope that the
positive motives would be the ones ascribed to the official
opposition.
I vigorously denounce the committee events which took place. The
words we use in the House are carefully chosen. I use that as
the strongest denunciation of the process. We went in with the
idea that witnesses would be heard. We had prepared our
witnesses long in advance. Other parties had not expected this
to be so hasty and did not even have their witnesses available.
We felt that surely the provinces should be brought into this
process, and we presented a motion to that effect. This is very
important. The Prime Minister said that. That motion was
defeated. I will never understand the defeat of the motion to
bring in every provincial legislature, the premiers' offices, at
least to present a brief.
We were allowed 12 witnesses for this whole process. Who are
our witnesses? We called for every provincial legislature and
the territories to be our witnesses. That does not seem to me to
be something that the official opposition should have to do. It
would be a natural thing for the government to say “Please give
us your input. Come if you will or present a brief if you
will”. It is a very strange process in my view.
1130
I could use a host of words to describe the process at the
committee such as arrogant and anti-democratic. That would sound
chippy and partisan, so I will only say that I denounce
vigorously the process at committee, and I am the ally. Why
would the ally not get at least a hearing for something this
important? I vigorously denounce it. I think it is a mistake.
[Translation]
This is playing into the sovereignists' hands, because they will
be able to say this is undemocratic. They are right, because it
is.
[English]
Let me turn then to the one thing that we gained from the
committee. This is to say that we did gain something. We gained
televised hearings. The hearings are televised. Even clause by
clause is televised. That was not preferred by the government,
but there was this one small gain. The public will be able to
listen to and watch the witnesses. There are witnesses,
literally at this moment, being heard on Bill C-20.
I will go back to the things that the official opposition wanted
to do. We wanted to clarify the question. This is something we
have vigorously agreed with and talked about back in the history
of our presence in the House. A clear question is mandatory. We
take it so far as to suggest a question.
[Translation]
The question is this. Should this province secede from Canada
and become an independent state without any special legal link
with Canada, yes or no?
[English]
I have listened to my colleagues in the Bloc say that there is
no need for it because the assembly in Quebec will put forward a
clear question. I say quite frankly that is an area in which we
disagree.
The previous questions talked about more than one thing.
Although every politically active person in Canada knew exactly
what the question meant, I do not think the average Joes on the
street, paying attention to politics periodically, had the
absolute idea that there would be no more MPs in Ottawa from
Quebec if it had passed. I do not believe for one second that
they felt their passports would be taken away from them in the
broader context. A plain question in my view is fair to
Quebecers and fair to everyone else. Those are my comments on
the clarification of the question.
On the clarification of the majority the minister and I had an
interchange yesterday. He said that the official opposition
position was not fair and not reasonable. In fact he used a very
strong word. He said that it was irresponsible.
Let me explain to every person in Canada why we feel 50% plus
one of the voters voting in the referendum is fair, reasonable
and legitimate. First, the two previous referenda were run under
those rules, in my judgment. I listened to the Prime Minister
say “We won the last referendum” when it was 50.5%. It was
very close. The Prime Minister himself said “Phew, we won”.
It is difficult to change the rules in the middle of the game.
It can be done if both parties agree. I listened to things such
as amending the constitution for various reasons takes
two-thirds. The parties agreed when they signed that
constitution. If only the Fathers of Confederation had thought
of this we would not have the problem. I agree that it is not
the ideal percentage, but it is the one that the last two
referenda were run under.
There are two sides to this question. The bill mentions that
the boundaries of Quebec is one of the issues that needs to be
discussed. If 50% plus one will break up Canada, in my
estimation it could also break up a province trying to secede.
Because the question would be clear and the majority would be
clear it removes all the fogginess. That is debatable. I will
admit that.
1135
I ask the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, if 50% plus one
of all votes cast in a referendum is not acceptable, to tell me
what is. We can debate that. With arguments well presented
maybe he could change my mind and the mind of the official
opposition. For various reasons that is not on the government
agenda.
Once again that is a bit of a gift to those who say that they
raised the bar, no matter what the percentage, to suit their
purposes. That is risky and leaves an opening for those who want
to say that Canada is not democratic. The committee proceedings
and that particular point are not particularly democratic.
I also listened to the minister ask how we could possibly break
up the country on a judicial recount. It does not matter what
number we put on it. What about 60% plus one? Could there be a
judicial recount there? What about 70% plus one? That is not an
argument that has logic behind it.
[Translation]
The four major issues in the bill are minority rights,
definition of borders, the native people's position and the
sharing out of the federal debt.
There are other things too, such as citizenship and the use of
the Canadian passport, the sharing out of federal assets, the
maintenance of creditor confidence, the use of the Canadian
currency, international recognition, participation by the
province in question in international agreements to which Canada
is a party or its exclusion from them, as well as transportation
and service corridors. All these things are important to me and
I would like to understand why these issues are not included in
the bill.
[English]
I talked about a battle between what I consider to be the status
quo in Ottawa and the desires of Quebec. These are legitimate
desires to have the original constitution respected. These are
very similar to aspirations that come from outside Quebec. I was
born in Quebec. I have lived in the west. I have family in
Quebec. I have a reason to be concerned and interested in what
happens there, more than just the Canadian flag.
I would like to give the message that there is another approach
to continuing this battle. There is another way other than going
down the road of the status quo versus those who feel they need
to leave the country. We need to listen to one another. There
are strong allies outside Quebec for the changes that Quebec is
hoping to undertake.
[Translation]
In conclusion, I would like to say that millions of Canadians
from outside Quebec also believe that we cannot accept the
status quo. Quebec will therefore be able to count on friends
and allies if it tries to change Canada. Quebec will notice that
many people also consider that a fundamental reform of the
federation is a priority.
1140
[English]
Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I thank the member for his speech which I followed with
great attention.
I would like to explore one aspect that he raised. That is the
question of his party inviting the provinces to the committee to
testify. In my reading of the legislation, the legislation deals
entirely with federal powers, unless he has an opinion opposite,
and I hope he will express it. As far as I can see there is
nothing in this legislation that goes beyond what are the powers
of this parliament.
Not to exclude the provinces absolutely, but I fail to see the
utility of provincial testimony. I can see other groups from
society, but I do not quite understand where he sees that the
provinces themselves have something material to offer on what is
entirely federal jurisdiction.
Mr. Grant Hill: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the question.
The issue for me is that this is why the Charlottetown accord and
some of the other big narrow processes failed. They were done
behind closed doors with a few individuals talking about them.
That is something that does not equate to broad consultation on
something this important.
I believe that the provinces have a significant part to play.
Do I think they would agree? I believe all but one would agree
with this bill. Do I think they might have some mechanism of
improving the bill? I would invite them here to listen to that.
That has not been done. There have been very informal
consultations. I would formally consult with the elected
representatives on this issue and do it so that all Canadians
would know that their provincial government had the same
feelings. Beyond that we are back into the elitist mode which
does not serves our country very well at all.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles-A. Perron (Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, BQ): Mr. Speaker, to
put it bluntly, the member for Macleod insulted me in his
speech.
He has insulted all Quebecers by saying that the people from
Quebec are not intelligent enough to understand the question,
that we politicians are the only intelligent people here. This
is an insult, pure and simple.
Tell me, sir, why did 95% of Quebecers vote? Tell me which of
them are intelligent: those who voted yes or those who voted no?
Please tell me.
Mr. Grant Hill: In my view, Mr. Speaker, this is not a very
emotional issue. If I think the question is not clear, that is
my opinion. If the hon. member says the question is very clear,
that is his opinion.
I think that for politicians, the question is very clear. If
people in Quebec believe it will still be possible to elect members
of parliament here after sovereignty, obviously, the question is
not clear.
Why is the Bloc afraid of having a clear question, a question
on sovereignty and nothing else? Quebecers are very intelligent,
Bloc members too. In my view, with a clear question the battle
is over.
[English]
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Tobique—Mactaquac, PC): Mr.
Speaker, I listened very attentively to the speech delivered by
the member for Macleod. I must say that I am impressed with the
Reform Party.
The member said that there was a need to improve the term
clarity. He also said that the Reform Party would want more
consultations and more issues addressed. There must be more ways
to improve federation. The member across the aisle on the
Liberal side said that the reason the provinces should not be
involved is that it is within federal jurisdiction, which is
total nonsense.
I have a question for the member for Macleod. If he has all
those points against the bill, why is the Reform Party or CRAP,
whatever its name is, supporting the bill?
1145
Mr. Grant Hill: Mr. Speaker, the support in principle for
clarity allows me to say that the bill could be improved. I
would hope that an intelligent member of parliament would try to
listen to the improvements. I would hope that he would debate
with me and try to say that those points are incorrect. It is a
straightforward matter of saying that in principle clarity is
important. Is there any other way to do this? I do not know.
[Translation]
Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Carleton—Gloucester, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
would like to commend the hon. member for MacLeod for his
interest in the clarity bill. I have a question for him.
Does he believe that Canada should stay united? Does he believe
in official languages, yes or no? I would like him to explain.
How it is that in the Standing Joint Committee on Official
Languages the hon. member for MacLeod, as a representative of
the Reform Party, voted against a proposal from the committee
asking the province to designate as bilingual the national
capital, the new city of Ottawa, which will be restructured by
the year 2001. Why did he object to the city of Ottawa becoming
bilingual?
Mr. Grant Hill: Mr. Speaker, I am for bilingualism. Ideally,
everyone should speak many languages. I support voluntary
bilingualism. I am against forced bilingualism. Here in Ottawa,
as the member well knows, things are bilingual because there is
a need.
Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ): Mr. Speaker, first of
all, I wish to say how unhappy I am, and I am trying to put this
nicely, with the member for Macleod who sits beside me. I
am having trouble when he says that those who did not
understand the question are not intelligent enough and when he
goes even further and says that if anyone does not agree with
the bill, it is for lack of intelligence.
My problem is that he saying that in this country—and this
will be a clear question—the English are intelligent and the
French are a bit thick? Is that what he is saying, yes or no?
Mr. Grant Hill: Absolutely not, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Mr. Speaker, the Liberal members of the
ridings of Beauce, Laval West, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Verdun,
Lac-Saint-Louis, Brossard—La Prairie, Pierrefonds—Dollard,
Vaudreuil—Soulanges, Brome—Missisquoi, Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle,
Anjou—Rivière-des-Prairies, Ahuntsic and Gatineau, who are not
ministers from Quebec, but members from Quebec, were probably
ordered by their government not to talk about Bill C-20.
I would urge them, through you, Mr. Speaker, to ignore the party
line on this, at least.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. member for Macleod
should have an opportunity to reply.
Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Yes, Mr. Speaker. And perhaps he will give
us the benefit of his superiority and enlighten us. It is said
that God does not need to be present for his will to be known.
I therefore ask the member for Macleod to use his superior
intelligence. Does he not believe that these members should
ignore the party line, which prevents them from commenting
officially on Bill C-20, and participate in questions and
comments at the very least so that we may know what they think?
Or does he think that they all aspire to ministerial positions
and therefore want to remain silent?
1150
[English]
Mr. Grant Hill: Mr. Speaker, I cannot imagine how the
member could have misunderstood my comments when I said that the
question that was asked in the last referendum in my opinion was
not clear, that it could confuse.
The member may say that that somehow reflects on intelligence.
That in my mind reflects on a very specific wish to make the
question somewhat cloudy. It involved more than one issue. It
had some negotiation with it. It talked about something other
than sovereignty.
The Bloc members have been very plain in that they want the
country to split up. They should say that and let us vote on
that. I do not believe that is what most Quebecers want and they
are very, very intelligent.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Before we resume
debate, from my position in the chair, if you will give me a
second for an editorial comment—
An hon. member: No, we do not.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Well I am going to
take it anyway. I remember when most of us arrived here in 1993,
there were many who were unilingual French or English. It is
amazing the number who are able in a rudimentary fashion to
converse in a second language. As I sit here watching this
debate it is an interesting ironic thrust.
As the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona informed me, I should
not be making editorial comments, so we will give the hon. member
on debate the opportunity to admonish the Chair.
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
far be it from me. I want to address the motion before us. I
compliment the Chair on his wise observations.
I rise on behalf of New Democrats in the House today to support
the motion that has been moved by the Bloc Quebecois. I think it
points out what is wrong with the process that has accompanied
the introduction of Bill C-20 and the process that has followed
the introduction of Bill C-20.
New Democrats have been unhappy with the process right from the
beginning. We were unhappy before we ever saw the bill. We felt
that the Prime Minister was engaging in a rhetorical battle with
the Bloc and with others in Quebec and creating an expectation
about the bill that turned out not to be accurate. That is to
say, there was some speculation prior to the introduction of the
bill that the bill might actually set a particular percentage of
support that would have to be met in any referendum. Not just
separatists but federalists were also concerned about that
particular prospect.
The bill was introduced by surprise when commitments had been
made that the bill would not be introduced until the following
week. Then all of a sudden on a Friday morning it was
introduced. It was debated at second reading in the House. There
were only three days of debate and closure was moved.
I know the government House leader likes to say he only moved
closure because the Bloc Quebecois members were not really
interested in debating it, that they were using dilatory measures
to preoccupy the House with matters other than Bill C-20. The
fact is that we cannot win with the government House leader on
this. If we use dilatory measures, then he says that we do not
really want to debate it. And if we debate it, he says we have
had enough debate, that we have had lots of opportunity to debate
it.
When we have a bill like this one, which on the face of it, as
we like to say in procedural matters is of prima facie import,
having to do with the possible breakup of the country, it is
something that parliament should debate in principle for a long
time. A long time in this parliament has come to mean three days
of debate.
That is certainly not what a long time used to mean in terms of
parliamentary debate.
1155
When it comes to unimportant things, we can debate them forever.
We can bring them forward this week, then three weeks later bring
them up again, four weeks later bring them up again and five
weeks later bring them up again. But if it is really important,
we must not debate it at any length because somehow that
transgresses on the government's understanding of how parliament
works. It does not transgress on the understanding of how the
opposition thinks parliament works and I do not think it
transgresses on the understanding of how the Canadian people
think parliament should work. They would think “Why do those
guys not spend their time on the important stuff and be more
efficient with the not so important stuff”. We have it exactly
backward in parliament. When something is really important—
Mr. Jim Jones: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I
notice there is not quorum in the House. Can you please call
quorum?
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. member for
Markham has requested a quorum call. There is not quorum. Call
in the members.
And the bells having rung:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): There is quorum.
Mr. Bill Blaikie: Mr. Speaker, I was commenting on the
fact that tradition in this parliament, thanks to the Liberal
government, has been that when important things come up for
debate, we debate them only briefly and then time allocation is
invoked whereas we seem to be able to debate unimportant things
for a long time.
When we are debating things that even the government says are
important, as the hon. member in his own way has pointed out, and
I know it is not proper to refer to individual members not being
here, but collectively speaking, government members are not in
the Chamber. This is something that has been raised before with
the government.
Government consistently shows contempt for the House of Commons
by not taking upon itself the responsibility of maintaining
quorum. This is something that in the past governments did as a
matter of course, as a matter of routine. It was regarded as
part of governmental responsibility. The government after all
has 150 members yet it cannot muster four. Well, it has just
mustered four of 150. Yet it expects the opposition to maintain
quorum. But I am not here to talk about quorum. I am talking
about the motion before us. As I said before, we support this
motion because we believe the committee—
Mr. Jerry Pickard: Mr. Speaker, where are the rest of the
hon. member's members?
Mr. Bill Blaikie: Mr. Speaker, we will match our
percentage of members with theirs anytime unless they cannot do
the math. It is kind of obvious to anyone who has two brain
cells to rub together who has the higher percentage of members
here in the House.
The problem is that the committee on Bill C-20 should have made
a commitment to travel. It should have made a commitment to
consult widely with Canadians in Quebec and in the rest of Canada
about the procedure the government intends to establish with
respect to the possible secession of any province and therefore
with respect to the breakup of the country. It would only make
sense that this is the kind of process that should have been
followed.
We have committees that travel the country asking Canadians
about other things, about fishery matters, transport matters,
agricultural matters. Almost every other matter has had a
committee travel the country to ask Canadians what they think
about that particular matter. Yet when it comes to something as
important as breaking up the country or at least the procedure
for doing so, or the procedure for a referendum to initiate
negotiations to break up the country, the government says not
only will we not travel, we will begin hearing witnesses on a
Wednesday of one week and on Friday of the following week we will
report the bill back to the House.
The plan in the committee is to hear the minister on Wednesday,
as we did yesterday. By next Wednesday we will move into clause
by clause study and in that period of time hear all the witnesses
who want to appear, but not all the witnesses, just all the
witnesses the committee decides to hear. That is a limited
number; we are only going to hear 45 witnesses.
We will be lucky if we can hear those in the little timeframe
that the government has established. I predict that we will
probably have to extend the life of the committee anyway because
witnesses have lives. Witnesses just cannot kind of pack up
their lives and say, “Oh, the Liberals need me”, or “The Bloc
needs me”, or “someone else needs me and I must truck on down
to Ottawa and destroy my schedule for next week because the
process that the House of Commons has decided, pursuant to the
will of the Liberal majority in the committee, means that I don't
have any time to plan ahead. I don't have any time to write a
brief. I don't have any time to gather my thoughts. I just have
to get down there and present”.
1200
It may well be that the government plan will falter to some
degree on the fact that witnesses simply cannot fit themselves
into the government timetable. There will be a certain amount of
justice in that.
We support the motion. We feel that the committee should have
travelled. The motion also includes something having to do with
televising, but my understanding is that the committee is being
televised. I am not sure why that is in the motion. It seems to
be a bit redundant. It is like protesting something that is not
there. The committee is being televised. Why protest the fact
that it is not being televised or why move a motion to televise
it when it is being televised. There is a certain kind of
inadequacy in the motion that we will overlook because we support
the spirit of the motion which is that the way the government has
handled this particular bill has been sorely inadequate and in
violation, I think, of the best traditions of parliament when it
comes to dealing with things that are very important.
However, Canadians should not let our objections to the process
obscure the fact that we do support the bill in principle, that
we support the view that there is a role for parliament, pursuant
to the opinion of the Supreme Court of Canada, in laying out what
parliament would regard as the conditions that would create an
obligation to negotiate on the part of the rest of Canada with a
province of Canada having to do with secession.
The Supreme Court of Canada, in its opinion, said that there
would have to be a clear question and a clear majority. It said
that what constituted a clear question and a clear majority would
have to be determined by the political actors; in other words,
the court said that it would not determine that itself.
Surely no one would want to argue that the Parliament of Canada
is not one of the political actors that the Supreme Court of
Canada had in mind. Surely no one would want to say that the
only political actors that the Supreme Court of Canada might have
had in mind are provincial governments alone or a provincial
government alone; that is to say, the provincial government of
the province that brings in a referendum. I do not think that
was what the court was saying. I do not think anyone could
credibly argue that was what the court was saying.
The bill is saying that, yes, the Parliament of Canada has
certain responsibilities, just like the provincial legislatures
of provinces have certain responsibilities, and like the National
Assembly of Quebec, it has responsibilities, it has rights and it
has the right to ask any question it likes in any referendum it
likes. That right coexists with the right of this parliament to
say that only a certain kind of question, responded to by a clear
majority, will create an obligation on the part of this place,
the Parliament of Canada, to negotiate secession. It does not
eliminate the possibility of other kinds of referendums on
association, or partnership or new forms of the federation. All
those kinds of things are still available and they are available
in the ordinary course of politics.
A province may want to have a referendum in order to demonstrate
that the people are behind its new constitutional proposal for a
new division of powers or whatever. That is all part of the
ordinary political process.
1205
What the bill talks about is an extraordinary political
situation in which a province would ask the Government of Canada
to begin negotiations on secession. It seems to me that
parliament would be shirking its duty if it said “Oh, we can't
have anything to say about that because that is up to the
seceding province. It has to determine that”. This is not a
credible position.
We have responsibilities here in parliament as the
representatives of all the people in Canada, including the people
of Quebec. We have our own jurisdiction in Quebec. Quebec is
not a separate country, and we hope it never will be. However,
it is not yet a separate country and therefore the federal
government has its own jurisdiction in Quebec. It has a right,
on behalf of people in Quebec and people outside of Quebec, to
determine what the conditions would be that would create the
obligation to negotiation secession. That is what the bill does.
Earlier on I talked about political actors. I am not talking
about what goes on during question period. I am talking about
the language of the supreme court which talked about political
actors, and the political actors being the ones who would have to
determine a clear question and a clear majority.
What we find unfortunate in the bill, not just the process, is
two things with respect to how the bill delineates who are the
political actors. There are two sections in the bill in which
the government lists people whose views it would have to take
into account in determining whether or not a question was
clear—and that would happen prior to a referendum—and in
determining whether or not a majority was clear. As the bill
stands now, that would happen after a referendum.
Who does the government list? It lists the Parliament of
Canada, obviously, and the provinces, the territories and the
Senate, which I will get to in a minute, and any other views that
it might deem relevant. It has the same list with respect to a
clear question and a clear majority.
We in the NDP contend that this particular list is faulty in two
grievous ways. First, it includes the Senate. It includes this
unappointed body and gives to it a role that we feel is
unwarranted, undeserved and not necessary in any constitutional
way in the determination that those sections of the bill lay out.
Having given this undeserved status to the Senate, the bill then
compounds the moral offence by not giving status to the
aboriginal people of provinces that hold such referendums.
Here we have a situation in which provinces and territories are
listed. The government has to take the views of these people
into account, as well as the views of the Senate or anybody else.
I guess maybe aboriginal people fall under anybody else. Yet,
these are the same people, in the case of the Cree and the Inuit
in Quebec, who won the last referendum for the federalist cause.
These are the people whose solid block of votes for Canada made
the difference between a winning referendum and a losing
referendum in 1995 and the government has the unmitigated gall to
ignore them and to treat them with contempt. This is the one
thing that unites federalists and separatists in this country.
When we see the process that is going on with respect to Bill 99
in Quebec and in Quebec City, the aboriginal people there in that
context are ignored as well and not given full recognition of
their rights and status. I might add that that committee is not
travelling either. It is not going to northern Quebec to get the
opinion of the Cree, when we hear all the self-righteousness of
the Bloc. Two wrongs do not make a right. The committee in this
House should show up the committee in Quebec City and do the kind
of travelling that is not being done there.
Those of us who are New Democrats find this to be a major flaw
in the bill. We hope the government will see its way to amending
this. I asked the minister in committee yesterday why he did not
have the aboriginal leadership of a province listed in this.
He said that he listed only the people who were constitutional. I
told him that the native people are in the constitution. I said
that I was there when they were put into the new constitution
when it was patriated in 1981. He then said that it is people
who are involved in the constitutional amendment process. I said
that the supreme court did not say “take into account the views
of constitutional political actors”. I would argue that
aboriginal people are constitutional political actors, but let us
leave that aside for a minute. In the government's own bill it
lists the territories. The territories do not have a part in the
constitutional amending process, yet their views have to be taken
into account, and rightly so.
1210
I said to the minister that since he has the territories in
there, why does he not have the aboriginal people in there. The
minister said that the territories are not in the bill. I told
him to check the bill. He had a little huddle, came back and
said that I was right, that the territories are in the bill.
An hon. member: Who wrote that bill?
Mr. Bill Blaikie: I thought the minister wrote the bill
but I now have to take that back. Somebody else clearly wrote
the bill.
I am not trying to be too cute here, but there is a good case to
be made, both in terms of the bill itself having listed the
territories, and rightly so, and the rights of aboriginal people
as established both in the constitution and by constitutional
convention going back to the Charlottetown accord when Ovide
Mercredi was at the table. Are we retreating now from what was
accomplished then in terms of aboriginal people having a place at
the table?
I submit that in order for the bill to be as just as the
government wants to portray it as being, aboriginal people should
be included in that list of people whose views have to be taken
into account. They should be listed clearly, definitively and
separately from everyone else.
The bill should also provide that in any negotiation of
secession, subsequent to a referendum with a clear question and a
clear majority, that aboriginal people are not just people whose
interests have to be taken into account, which is the way the
bill reads now, but should be part of the negotiating process.
Having done that, I think the government would be much better
able to come before the House and say that this bill is indeed a
piece of democratic legislation. I do not accept the view of the
Bloc that it is antidemocratic. There is still all kinds of room
there for sovereignists to win. If they really feel Quebecers
want to have a sovereign country then they should not be afraid
of a piece of legislation that asks them to ask a clear question.
If they get their clear majority they can have their country.
Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, it is a pleasure to hear the member for
Winnipeg—Transcona speak on this issue because he is a member
with great experience. But I think he has actually misread the
act in some respects, and there is a contradiction in what he
said.
In the course of his speech, he made allusions several times to
the fact that Bill C-20 sets conditions on the question and the
prospect of separation. But I submit that is not what Bill C-20
does at all. What Bill C-20 does is it sets limits on the
government. It says very clearly that the government cannot
enter into negotiations before the House of Commons has
determined whether the question is clear or not and other aspects
of the percentage and that kind of thing.
In my view—and I would like the member to comment on this—this
is quite a different kettle of fish, shall we say. Limiting the
government is something that indeed all members of parliament,
even those of us on the backbench on the government side, would
like to see a government limited from time to time and indeed
this bill does that. I would suggest to the member that not only
does it do that, but that everything in the bill is entirely
within the scope of the House of Commons. It is not something
that is inconsistent with what we can do as members of parliament
because we have added no additional powers to parliament. We
have merely limited the powers of government, which I would have
thought would be entirely in keeping with what this parliament
should be doing at any time.
1215
Mr. Bill Blaikie: Madam Speaker, I am not sure whether
the hon. member is fishing for differences that are not there. I
never said that it is was not within the purview of parliament.
In fact, I thought I had made an argument about why it was within
the purview of parliament.
With respect to the language of conditions, I used the word
conditions in an entirely different sense than the hon. member
attributed to me. What I said was that the bill outlines what
would create the conditions for an obligation to negotiate. I am
trying to stick very carefully to the supreme court ruling. It
said that only after a clear question and a clear majority—a
clear question being a question that was very clear about the
fact that it had to do with separation and with the province
holding the referendum on becoming an independent country and
with a clear majority on that clear question—would there be an
obligation to negotiate. That is the sense in which I was using
the word conditions.
[Translation]
Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ): Madam Speaker, I have
several questions for the hon. member from the New Democratic
Party.
First, he talked a little about the clear question. I would now
like to hear him describe his idea of a clear majority.
Second, he should explain the biological or genetic advantage
that the people from Winnipeg, from his riding or from his
province have over Quebecers to understand what is a clear
question. What is missing biologically or genetically in
Quebec the explanation surely lies there so that we cannot
understand what is a clear question while they can?
Why should we need the advice of the hon. member from the
northeast part of Prince Edward Island, a member whom I do not
know but for whom I have much respect? Why should his advice be
superior to that of the national assembly that, unanimously or
by a majority, could determine what is a clear question? I would
like him to enlighten us about that as well.
While I am not very experienced, I know that we cannot mention
absent members in the House, but we can present members. The
hon. member for Anjou—Rivière-des-Prairies who is here surely has
much to say on this issue, but he has not risen since this
morning. I rose in part to take his place.
The hon. member for Brome—Missisquoi has been reading La Presse
all morning. Perhaps he would also have something to say about
Bill C-20.
I am looking at the member for Brossard—La Prairie, who has been
twiddling his thumbs all morning. He might have had something to
say about Bill C-20. I could say the same for the member for
Bourassa.
Members from Quebec have been instructed to shut up or else
they are simply devoid of ideas and afraid to stand up. I am
therefore speaking on their behalf.
In closing, I would like to ask the member from the New
Democratic Party if he thinks the following question is clear,
and I will read it slowly:
Do you accept and approve the settlement agreement dated, for
reference purposes, the 14th day of December 1999, between the
Montagnais band of Lac-Saint-Jean and Her Majesty the Queen in
right of Canada?
That was the first question. I will now read the second one:
Do you agree to sanction, pursuant to sections 38(1) and 39 of
the Indian Act, the absolute transfer to Her Majesty the Queen
in right of Canada by the Montagnais band of Lac-Saint-Jean of all
its rights and those of its members to all parcels of reserve
lands on concession IX of the Ouiatchouan township?
By voting “YES”, you authorize the Chief of the Montagnais band
of Lac-Saint-Jean or any other member of the band council duly
authorized by resolution to sign on behalf of the band council,
the band itself and its members all documents, and to take all
measures required to put into effect the settlement agreement
and the absolute transfer of all parcels of reserve lands on
concession IX of the Ouiatchouan township. Yes or no?
Does this question, written by the governmental party without
any consultation, seem clear to the hon. member?
1220
[English]
Mr. Bill Blaikie: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon.
member for leaving me so much time to answer his questions, for
having gone on and on about something that I had nothing to say
about, and for pointing out in his own procedurally quirky way
the absence of people that he is not supposed to point out the
absence of.
With respect to the last question, I know what the member is up
to. He wants me to say it is a clear question. Then he is going
to point out that 50% plus one is enough for that, and then he is
going to extrapolate from there that 50% plus one is good enough
for any other referendum.
Of course, what is debatable here is whether a referendum having
to do with the secession of a province like Quebec is in fact a
qualitatively different kind of referendum, and whether 50% plus
one is all that would be required. That is part of the debate
that is going on in committee.
There are people in all parties who feel that 50% plus one is
the standard, and there are people who do not. Whether it comes
to be something that is actually in the bill, or whether
amendments are moved to that effect, we shall see.
The member also brought up this genetic, biological argument,
which I think was unfortunate. The fact of the matter is that,
yes, voters in my riding, voters in Prince Edward Island, which I
think he also mentioned, voters everywhere in Canada ought to
have a say through their parliament about what the conditions
would be which would obligate them to negotiate the secession of
a province that contains some 10 million of their fellow citizens
from their country.
As far as I am concerned that is self-evident. I do not think
we are non-participating spectators in the process that would
break up our country. I am sorry, but I have to disagree with my
colleague from the Bloc. I think that all Canadians have a say
in what conditions would create an obligation on the part of
their government to negotiate the secession of a particular
province from Canada, and I make no apologies for that.
Quebecers have their rights too. This relates to the other
thing the member said. He was listing members from Quebec and
why they have not said anything. He believes that in order to be
a true Quebecer one has to agree with him. These other people
who have not spoken up in favour of the position he advocates,
they are somehow not true and real Quebecers. I think this is
one of the more despicable elements of the way the Bloc members
conduct themselves with respect to this debate, that somehow
people who do not agree with them are not real Quebecers.
I allow for a Canada in which Quebecers can defend their right,
not the right of the rest of Canada, but their right to have a
clear question and a clear majority, their right not to be
snookered by a separatist government that has a strategy to get
them into the lobster pot that Jacques Parizeau described.
That is a democratic principle which respects the rights of all
Quebec citizens and not just the rights of sovereignists and
separatists to cleave to their own particular strategy.
[Translation]
Mr. André Bachand (Richmond—Arthabaska, PC): Madam Speaker,
during my speech, I will certainly raise points that may be
somewhat redundant. Since I do not want to sound redundant, I
will put some emphasis on certain points that were raised this
morning.
I will start by taking a look at the motion brought forward by
the Bloc Quebecois.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. André Bachand: I can see that, by my mere presence, I woke
up a number of government members and I am very happy about
that.
The motion before us today arises from the frustration expressed
by the four opposition parties about the approach used by the
government to decide how the committee on Bill C-20 will proceed.
It felt a little strange to hear what the eight members
delegated by the government to deal with this issue had to say.
They all said the same thing, almost word for word “You know,
with just three clauses, this bill is not all that important. It
is not very detailed. There is no reason to worry”.
1225
We realize that it is indeed important. Besides the
great legal and constitutional issues raised by this bill, which
I will address in a moment, the fact remains that it stirs up
emotions and triggers reactions. As a matter fact, this bill is
the result of a poll taken last summer by the federal government
and paid for with our taxes.
What I really want to discuss is what happened at committee on
Monday night when we were trying to decide how to operate. We
discussed whether the committee should travel. The government
said no, the committee should not travel. Its position was
clear: people can come to Ottawa, it is not that far. If people
from Quebec want to come to Ottawa, the government will pay
their expenses. It is as simple as that.
That is the decision that was made. The government said “The
committee will not travel”.
We then thought “Okay, the committee will not travel, but
why?” And the answer came back “No time”. It is clear, you are either
for or against it. We were told we would not travel. We said
“Okay, it is fine, we cannot travel”.
Then we asked “Will there be any time for people to prepare,
because we are breaking new ground here?” Not only can we not
travel, but we are now being told that we must be done by
Friday. An member of the opposition introduced a motion
requesting an extension until February 28, to give people time
to put a brief together. The government said “No, there is no
time. It is now or never. Your mind must be made by now; this is
a simple bill. Show up now or forget it”.
We suggested publishing a notice in the papers to let people
know when the committee hearing would be held. The government
said “No, you cannot do that”. “Could we at least send an
invitation to the provinces, we asked, telling them that we will
be doing some legislative work and considering an important bill
that concerns them in certain regards? Could we simply invite
them, to tell them that we are here and that we will try to do a
good job?” The answer was “No, that is out of the question”. We
then asked that the committee be allowed to hear witnesses who
wish to appear. Again, the government said “No, that is out of
the question”.
The committee will hear only 45 witnesses.
We asked “Does this mean that we will all submit our lists of
witnesses and the steering committee will decide?” Again, the
answer was no. Limits are being put on the number of witnesses
by political party. Some members suggested we might look at that
together. The government said “No, this has been decided; there
will be 15 witnesses for the Liberal Party, 12 for the Reform
Party, 10 for the Bloc Quebecois, four for the NDP and, because
we are very kind, another four for the Progressive Conservative
Party”. “Does this mean we may invite other witnesses, we
asked?” Again the answer was no. A committee member asked “Could
someone who wants to appear, who is following the committee
proceedings on television, invite himself? This is a democracy.
One may want to be heard and say 'I have questions and I would
like to address them'.” The answer remains no, he cannot.
For the first time—for one of very few times at least—to be a
witness at a legislative committee studying a bill, one has to
be sponsored by political party. Those who have no connections,
like the non-aligned people—because I was asking the question:
what do non-aligned people do? Imagine this, the government will
invite witnesses who will toss ideas that might be more or less
close to ours, but at least we will discuss. As for the others,
the doors are closed. This is a tightly closed committee.
Mr. Antoine Dubé: Undemocratic.
Mr. André Bachand: Exactly. The hon. member for Lévis just said
it. Is the bill undemocratic? We will discuss this later. But is
the legislative committee democratic and open? The answer is no.
This is absolutely terrible.
We will, of course, support the Bloc Quebecois motion asking for
the committee to travel.
But when we say that the committee will travel, whether you like
it or not, that means that more witnesses, maybe, will be heard,
that we will take more time. We are talking about a bill that,
for the Liberals, has become unimportant. We talked about a flip
flop by some opposition parties on Bill C-20. But it is quite a
flip flop that the Liberal Party has made on the most important
bill ever introduced in this House. But it is not important,
there are many other things to do. That is quite a flip flop, is
it not? The Prime Minister should look at himself in the mirror.
That is quite a flip flop.
We are only hoping that, in effect, this will be discussed
because it is not clear. The role of the committee is not clear.
The bill is not really clear either.
1230
We just hope that the
government will wake up and say to the committee: “Listen, you
are having problem getting witnesses in the short term because
you are pushing people around.” The people are told: “Come and
appear before the committee. These are the days and time of the
hearings. You show up on this day, at that time, or do not
bother. You either show up or you do not.” Then I go: “Wait a
minute, I have previous commitments. I am a member of a board or
of an organization.” And they say: “No, this is it. Either you
find it important or you do not. You come on that day or you do
not show up at all.”
This is an outrage, a slap in the face by the committee. And the
funny part is that we had our “Cassoulet”, as he was called.
Members will remember that children's program on Radio-Canada
called “Plum-pouding”. The star of that show was the father of
Marc Labrèche, a comedian whose first name I forget now; he
played a French spy. He would take off his hat and call his boss
to receive orders. He always said “What do I do now?” The name
of the character was Cassoulet.
What I am about to say is unbelievably funny. There was a
Cassoulet, the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs, in committee until I rose in the name
of the opposition. He was listening to the proceedings, but his
cellular phone was on all the time. He took notes and brought
them to the parliamentary secretary, who then said “Here is my
position”. The connection was direct. There was another
invisible player and I can tell members it was not the Holy
Ghost, but minister's office or the office of the government
House leader.
This is insulting. It was funny to see, really. However, it was
insulting for the eight Liberals present. They had absolutely
nothing to say. The cellular phone determined everything. I
agree that technology is important nowadays, but I do not agree
with Cassoulet and his cell phone. This makes no sense
whatsoever.
The motion will probably be defeated because Cassoulet, the
House leader, the whip, and the Prime Minister will say no, we
vote against that. Let us get it out of the way. We have
important issues to deal with. The government has a heavy
legislative program.
Yesterday, we had the opportunity to talk briefly about Bill
C-20, the bill dealing with the clarity of the referendum question.
If it were so clear, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs
would probably never have submitted a 16 page document dealing
with a three clause bill, three clauses that are supposed to
define what negotiations will be in the event of a secession. Is
that clear? No, it is not. The bill makes no mention of the
question nor does it specify what the majority will be. The
committee has already started hearing witnesses, at least those
who have been able to come before it, but they do not agree.
Everybody wants a clear question and a clear majority. What
everybody is really saying is that if Quebecers decide to get
out of this federation, everybody must agree on this. We do not
need a bill to do this. I asked this question to the minister,
because it is important.
We are currently considering a lot of legislation. There is, for
instance, Bill C-23, which contains hundreds of clauses. They are
significant. These bills mean something to us. They call for our
careful consideration, as citizens and as members of this House.
We did not hesitate to propose amendments.
The minister said that we must not complicate things. He said
that if Quebec ever leaves this country and thus breaks Canada
apart, things will have to be kept simple. Maybe because it will
be too complicated. This bill is supposed to enlighten
everybody, but it does so only partially.
I want to raise some points that show how unclear this bill is.
Of course, the question is not clear, because it is not spelled
out. The majority is not clear either, because it is not
defined.
Yesterday, I asked the minister about this.
For those who were unable to watch that wonderful program live,
I said “The only thing you indulged in in your presentation,
Minister,—and even in French I used the English term—is Quebec
bashing”. It was bashing, and nothing else. People need only
read the minister's speech. The only province associated with
secession was Quebec.
I therefore asked the minister “If you wanted the bill to be so
clear, Minister, why did you not have the balls to be clear and
use Quebec and not a province in all three clauses? Are you
telling us that another province wants to separate?
1235
That is certainly not the case, since you spoke only of Quebec
in the whole 20 minutes. You attacked almost all democratic
institutions. Thus I contend that you do not want to use the
term Quebec”. The answer was “We do not want to use the term
Quebec”. Why? The supreme court opinion was about what? Cape
Breton? Prince Edward Island? No, it was about Quebec. The title
mentions Quebec. The preamble mentions Quebec.
They thought it might be dangerous to attack Quebec directly, so
they removed the term Quebec from the clauses. The minister
avoided the issue and said “Well, I will not reply to that”.
The other question I asked him was “Is this constitutional
amendment?” He answered “Yes”. I asked “What amending formula
will apply?” Because the supreme court referred to a
constitutional amendment. “What amending formula? The
7-50 formula? Unanimity? Which one?” He replied “We do not know,
we will see”. I said “What? You are supposed to be clear, and
you do not know? There is a problem”. If the 7-50 formula
applies, the weight of some provinces increases or diminishes,
depending on whether or not Quebec is a partner to that amending
formula.
I even went further because, sometimes—most often in the rest of
Quebec, among anglophones and allophones and even among some
Quebecers—people are afraid of telling the truth and asking the
real questions.
In this case, it is Mr. Bouchard, in Quebec City, and the Prime
Minister and member of Shawinigan, in this House. Let us suppose
there is a yes vote on a clear question. The result will be
clear. But who negotiates for whom? How will the people of
Ontario accept that Quebecers share the debt and the assets of
the country? Are the hon. members of this House comfortable with
this? Probably not. Am I comfortable with the idea of entrusting
a Quebecer, namely the member for Shawinigan, with the task of
negotiating? I am not sure.
What do we do with the 75 members from Quebec, men and women who
were elected democratically, whatever their political stripe?
Are they still part of the constitution? If the constitution has
to be amended unanimously, does Quebec have a veto? If a
negotiating committee on secession is struck will Quebec be
part of it?
If members ask those questions to the members of the government
party, they will say “André, do not raise those points, people
in the west will react negatively”. I say “Of course, it is all
fine and well not raise those points, but do you want clarity,
yes or no? If you do not, stop.
If you do not, you have to go all the way”. Let us ask the real
questions.
Mr. John Bryden: The Bloc members and the Conservatives know
that.
An hon. member: We are Quebecers first and foremost.
Mr. André Bachand: I believe one can be a proud Quebecer and a
proud Canadian. Earlier the NDP member told the member for
Repentigny that being a Quebecer does not necessarily mean being
a sovereignist, and being a Canadian does not necessarily mean
being a Liberal.
An hon. member: Put that in your pipe.
Mr. André Bachand: The court
talks about political actors, as mentioned by several speakers.
Why is it that the federal government decided it was the
political actor? It wants to have the lead role, maybe like
Bruno Pelletier in “Notre-Dame de Paris”, or something like that.
It wants to be applauded, but this is not what the supreme court
said.
It said “it will be for the political actors to determine
what constitutes a clear question”. It will be for the political
actors to determine what constitutes a clear majority, to engage
in a negotiating process, to decide what its results will be.
Liberal members are political actors. We are political actors.
The provinces are political actors.
We could go much further and broaden the scope. The Liberal
government has highjacked the supreme court's opinion, and is
serving it up its own way.
It put people in a comfort zone regarding the future of the
country. It told “With this bill, Quebec will never separate;
you can sleep on both ears, everything is under control”. We
must remember what the Prime Minister was saying before the 1995
referendum “Everything is being looked after”.
1240
I am definitely not a sovereignist; I am definitely not a
Liberal. But I most definitely have questions. For us in the
Conservative Party this bill has been a hard blow. We have
members outside Quebec. But we should abide fully by everything
the supreme court said.
As I asked the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs yesterday,
what is a political actor? He answered with a non-answer. I
said “If the provinces are political actors, do you suggest
that the provinces pass the same bill, this bill that is so
clear? The provinces are, so far as I know, equal partners in
the federation, so if they are equal partners, are you prepared
to suggest that they adopt the same bill?” The minister
replied “Not really; it is not necessary.”
I also asked whether or not we like the Senate, until
there is a constitutional change, have to live with it. It
needs to be improved, clearly. We Conservatives agree with
that. But how is it that the Senate has no representative on
this legislative committee of the House of Commons?
We have a bicameral system after all, two chambers. Whether we
like how it works, or not, we have to live with procedures.
Whether or not we like to have the wool pulled over our eyes by
the Liberal majority in a legislative committee, we must
unfortunately live with it.
Power must be properly exercised because it is something we run
into head on pretty quickly. I asked the minister “So what
about the Senate?” “Oh, we don't know about that”. But the
Senate has a right of veto on this. There are Liberal senators
traipsing about with a letter demanding an amendment, because
the government is not even respecting the parliamentary system.
When it hits the Senate, the senators are going to tell you
“Here we are, and maybe we are appointed, but there are some in
our bunch that would like to do their job properly and to have
some recognition. Maybe not individual recognition, but we do
have the upper chamber. Show at least some respect for your own
parliament”.
I followed up with two questions, with which I
shall close. “Are you open to amendments?” Because in a
parliament system—
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. André Bachand: The answer was “No, it is not necessary.
It is clear and quite simple.
You are for or against”. It is a slap in the face. As the
parliamentary process goes, it is a kick in the pants. The
government brings in a bill and says “You may consider the bill,
but we will not change it.” Not at all. What purpose are the
witnesses going to serve in committee? One witness would say “I
think the majority should be 70 %.” The government is going to
say “Good”. The witness would add “The territory of
Quebec is indivisible”. To which the government would reply
“Oh, I do not know about that”.
Why refer the bill to a legislative committee if the
government cannot make a difference?
My last question, and I will finish with that, was for the
minister:
“If the bill is so simple, so clear, so directly in line with
the Supreme Court of Canada, before Royal Assent, since you have
the prerogative to do so, could you not ask the Supreme Court to
establish if it is contrary to the opinion of the Supreme Court,
to the existing legislation in Canada and to the Canadian
Constitution or in keeping with them?” The answer was “No”.
[English]
Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his excellent speech. He
covered a lot of territory there.
Mr. Gilles Bernier: Because he knows what he is talking
about.
Mr. John Bryden: He may know what he is talking about. I
hope he does. At any rate, he raised one issue that makes me
question whether he knows what he is talking about. He made
allusions several times to the fact that Bill C-20 sets
parameters on the events and the negotiations leading to the
secession of a part of Canada or a province of Canada.
1245
I submit to the member that if he reads the act very carefully
he will see that the act exactly does not do that. It does not
define the question. It does not define the number required for
a majority vote, and it does not define the actual conditions of
the negotiations. It precisely avoids doing that.
What it very clearly does instead—and I would ask the member to
agree with me or disagree with me, and if he disagrees to please
explain—is limits the power of a government, any government, a
future government of this country, to negotiate with a province
on secession. It says that government must first go to the House
of Commons and determine whether or not the House of Commons
approves of the certain events leading up to the negotiations
that government might want to do, for example the question has to
be clear, the House of Commons has to determine what is a clear
majority, and so on and so forth.
I submit to the member that in doing so, in limiting the power
of future governments in negotiating with a province that wishes
to secede perhaps on an ambiguous question, what in fact the
government is doing is withdrawing from the separatists in
Quebec. I do not necessarily say this to members of the Bloc
Quebecois because they are very good parliamentarians, but it
withdraws from the separatists in Quebec of having one of their
winning conditions. That winning condition would be a leader of
a government side who would be willing to negotiate on an unclear
question and might have a majority in the House that has such
party discipline that they would follow that leader no matter
what he did.
Basically the winning condition that we are trying to avoid by
Bill C-20 is surely the leader of the Conservative Party who we
know, if he ever did come to power, would be instantly ready to
negotiate on an ambiguous question.
[Translation]
Mr. André Bachand: Mr. Speaker, on the last comment of the hon. member,
I should say that if Mr. Clark were in power, if there were a new
government, we would probably not be faced with the same
situation.
Two things I want to say. When the hon. member says “limit the
power of this government”, it is not true. He should read the
opinion of the Supreme Court and examine the bill, then he would
see that it is not a question of limiting the power but of
increasing it. They are grasping, claiming to be political
actors. The rules for the vole are not altered. What percentage
will be needed in this House to say that the question and the
majority are clear and to start negotiating the dismantling of
our country? Will it be 50% plus one or will there be new rules?
Under Bill C-20, the federal government would force all of
Canada to negotiate the terms and conditions of secession, if
49% of members in the House said the question was not clear and
51% said it was.
The federal government has given itself every power. This bill
may not seem important today, but I dare the government to take
it to the supreme court right now.
The member says the bill does not mention a clear question or
suggest a clear majority and a negotiation process. I will
reiterate what the hon. member said. We in the Progressive
Conservative Party will take his note and his remarks and send
that to the people of Ontario and western Canada. We will tell
them that the clarity bill is not clear on the question.
It is not clear on the majority and it is not clear on the
negotiation process.
Therefore, I want to thank the hon. member personally and on
behalf of the Conservative Party and all the federalists who
still hope to accomplish something in this country.
[English]
Mr. John Bryden: Mr. Speaker, I am delighted. We appear
to be having a kind of dialogue here. I draw the member's
attention to a subclause 2(4) of the bill, and I will only read
it in part, which says very clearly: “The Government of Canada
shall not enter into negotiations on the terms” of a province
seceding “unless—there has been a clear expression of a will
by a clear majority of the population of that province”.
1250
The act is absolutely clear. It says a government will not
enter into negotiations unless parliament has approved. What we
have simply done by this bill is that we have given parliament
the power, not government the power. We have given parliament
the power to decide whether any government, especially a
Conservative government, shall ever enter into negotiations to
break up this country. As for myself, I will trust parliament
any day over a government that might be led by a Mr. Joe Clark.
[Translation]
Mr. André Bachand: Mr. Speaker, this is good news. If we ever
come to power, and he leaves, so much the better. That is good
news. I cannot disagree with that.
My point is that, according to him, without a clear question and
a clear majority there is no negotiation. He says “This
parliament is given the power”. But the way it works is that
there is no exceptional provision in the bill.
The government now wants to include an exceptional provision in
case secession occurs, but not within our own operation. They
eliminate all the provinces, all the other partners and the other
place and they say “Here is where it is done”. And they do not
change one iota of parliamentary proceedings. Who are the
Cassoulets in the Liberal realm? The PMO decides. On an issue
as crucial as this one, why did it not say it would be decided by
a free vote in the House to the two thirds representing seven
provinces, minimum. Why not have done that? Why could the
government not take the spirit of the amendment to the
Constitution of 1982 and establish it here in this House?
Before someone on the other side of the House is empowered to
negotiate the break up of this country, it will take more than
50% plus one, from all appearances. There should be a majority
of the members here, representing a majority of the regions of
the country, before a Prime Minister, who has done nothing to
save the country, can go and negotiate the end of it.
[English]
Mr. John Bryden: Mr. Speaker, I am delighted actually
because the member wants to refer everything to the supreme court
which, I have to say, follows the tradition of the Mulroney
Tories who made laws so vague that we are still cleaning up the
mess with the supreme court.
I point out to the speaker that the supreme court in this
country comes under the Supreme Court of Canada Act. The supreme
court comes under this parliament. So what he wants us to do is
to refer the question to a body that in fact is under this
parliament. There is a sort of confusion. We are going to go
round in circles here.
Why does he not become a real true parliamentarian and take
control in this House of the future of the country and use this
House as the forum for debate and decision rather than going
outside to an unelected body like the supreme court?
[Translation]
Mr. André Bachand: Mr. Speaker, it is the Liberals who started
the supreme court “game”, not me or the opposition parties. Who
made the reference to the supreme court? Who said “We do not
know what to do with the sovereignist, nationalist, and
independentist movement in Quebec. Help. We call on the wisdom
of the supreme court judges. We will ask them questions and hope
they will side with us”? Who said that? Not me. We were opposed.
We are of the opinion that, within a country, people are
supposed to talk to each other, to understand each other, and to
make compromises. Clearly, that is not how they see things
across the way.
Yesterday, the Minister of Intergovermental Affairs stated—and it
said it all, a wonderful, poetic statement—“I respect the supreme
court of my country”. The minister should teach a lesson to the
hon. member and show him how to respect the judiciary system of
this country.
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am
really pleased to take part in the debate on the opposition
motion on Bill C-20 put forward by the Bloc Quebecois.
Some may think the Bloc Quebecois is exaggerating or wants to
set a precedent by asking the government that the legislative
committee on Bill C-20 be allowed to travel across Quebec and
Canada.
But there are three fundamental reasons for the Bloc Quebecois'
request.
1255
First, it is common practice for the House of Commons to have
committees travel. Since 1994, parliamentary committees have
travelled throughout Canada and abroad on more than 60
occasions. A few examples will prove to those listening that the
government does not stint on money and resources when it is not
worried about consulting the public.
The Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs
travelled to Germany in January of 1999.
The Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights travelled to
the eastern provinces in March of 1999.
The Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International
Trade travelled to Quebec City, St-Hyacinthe, Montreal, Halifax,
Winnipeg, Toronto and Vancouver in March and April of 1999.
The Standing Committee on Natural Resources and Government
Operations travelled to British Columbia in May of 1999.
Before signing the Nisga'a treaty, the Liberal government had
the committee responsible for examining this treaty travel to
British Columbia to hear from citizens there who wished to voice
their concerns about the treaty.
Finally, as we speak, the Standing Committee on Fisheries and
Oceans is now travelling in British Columbia and in the State of
Washington.
The second reason is that all the opposition parties, which
represent 62% of voters, have asked that the committee be
allowed to travel.
The Reform member for Macleod has accused the Liberals of not
respecting Canadians or democracy. The NDP leader and member
for Winnipeg—Transcona said the following, and I quote: “The
government has acted not expeditiously but with arrogance. It
is showing its disdain for the rules and traditions of the House
on matters of such importance. This bill deserves more
attention and different treatment”.
These are not the words of a Bloc Quebecois member or a
sovereignist, far from it.
In addition to the opposition parties, a large number of groups
of Canadians and Quebecers, a large number of individuals, have
called for the committee to travel in order to make it easier for
the witnesses to take part. Who are these groups that are
deploring the government's tactics for looking at Bill C-20?
Let us see what the spokespersons for some of them think about
the government's steamroller tactics. Let us see what they
think, which is probably what is stopping the Liberal government
from letting the committee travel, for fear of hearing the truth
about Bill C-20.
Marc Laviolette, president of the CSN, said “Basically, the
Prime Minister ought quite simply to pass legislation stating
that Quebec is not entitled to secede. Period. That would be
the end of it, and it would be clear. But instead he has
decided to play at being democratic.”
Henri Massé, the general secretary of the FTQ said “There are
all the makings of a good debate in Quebec, and this has been
the case since the 1970s. The debate is being conducted in a
civilized fashion, the forces present are quite responsible and
need no outside help”.
Monique Richard, the president of the CEQ, also had this to say
“This bill flies in the face of the most basic rules of
democracy and our parliamentary system. What entitles the Prime
Minister and his Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs to come
blindly marching into this debate and tell us what to do and how
to do it?”
Daniel Baril of the FEUQ calls for the withdrawal of the bill in
the following terms “Mr. Prime Minister, we demand the
withdrawal, pure and simple, of your bill and we ask you to come
back down to earth with us”.
1300
Geneviève Baril puts it as follows “If the Prime Minister wants
to give lessons on democracy, let him go back to school and do
his homework”.
The Montreal Saint-Jean-Baptiste Society says “We will never allow
Ottawa to eliminate the right of the people of Quebec to freely
decide its future. Canada will lose a few feathers in Quebec,
but it will lose more internationally. No one on this earth
will ever again listen to a country that promotes rights and
freedoms but fails to honour them itself.
Canada is violating its international commitments and is turning
into a prison of nations. It is time the Prime Minister get out
of his village and realize that he is taking an action that is
an embarrassment to the whole international community”.
As for François Saillant, of the Front d'action populaire en
réaménagement urbain, the FRAPRU, he said “The federal
government is tarnishing the image of the Canadian people on the
international scene by denying the people of Quebec a right as
fundamental as the right to self-determination. This is totally
unacceptable on the part of a government that has been boasting
for years that we are the best country in the world. The
Canadian government is once again showing its hypocrisy when it
comes to the respect of fundamental rights”.
Jean-Yves Desgagnés, of the Front commun des personnes assistées
sociales du Québec, points out the following “The federal bill
is an attempt unprecedented in Canadian history to impose on the
people of Quebec a legal yoke to prevent it from being the
master of its own destiny. Twice, in the 1980 and 1985
referendums, Quebecers were asked to decide on their future.
That process was conducted under rules determined by the Quebec
national assembly and no one in Quebec, whether on the
federalist or the sovereignist side, challenged the legitimacy
and democratic nature of these two consultations. Why question
the political maturity of that people and its ability to discuss
its future in serenity and in the respect of the various views
expressed?”
Mrs. Claude Majeau, of the Fédération des locataires
d'habitation à loyer modique du Québec, had this to say “The
federal referendum bill is a tactic which may divert the
attention of Canadians and Quebecers from a very important
issue: the use of the federal government's budgetary surpluses”.
All the parties in the national assembly and a great many
community groups in Quebec and in Canada are begging the federal
government to withdraw Bill C-20. This shows that there is a
strong consensus in Quebec.
The government is too afraid of being democratic. It knows that
its bill undermines the basic principles of democracy. It knows
it will have to withdraw it. So it goes underground. It works
behind the scenes, hoping that the legislative committee will
make as few waves as possible.
There is an old saw about still waters running deep, but we
should also heed what appears on the arch over the door to
the opposition lobby. It says in part:
“A time will come, which is not yet, when I'll bite him
by whom I'm bit.”
Mr. Paul Mercier (Terrebonne—Blainville, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I
have a question for my colleague.
Suppose the national assembly decides to hold a referendum and
prepares a question, and the House of Commons likes the
question. Now suppose the vote in favour of sovereignty is 52%.
1305
In this very original game where one of the players sets the
rules once the game is over, one can expect that, with a 52% yes
vote, the federal government would say that a 54% majority is
needed. With a 54% yes vote, it would probably say a 56%
majority is needed.
In any event, it would not recognize this 52% result. We would
therefore find ourselves in a situation where Quebec would be
48% federalist and 52% sovereignist. Yet it would remain within
the federal system, which means that it would be dominated by a
minority. This is obviously undemocratic.
I would like to ask my colleague what kind of social peace she
thinks we would have in a province that is part of the
federation against the will of the majority of its people.
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay: Mr. Speaker, this is probably an
extremely interesting question to ask, but the answer could be
fraught with consequences.
I have a problem when I hear, for instance, my colleague from
Richmond—Arthabaska, and when I note all the questions he asked
the minister yesterday in committee, and all the answers he got.
We told the government on many occasions that nobody wanted to
hear about it. Why also is it that the Prime Minister said “This
is a small bill, it will go through fast; nobody is interested
in it”. I wonder why, instead of striving for harmony and
seeking some kind of agreement, the Liberal government
constantly does its best to pour oil on the fire.
When, in committee, it tells our colleagues “We will see, we
will decide later; we will work something out”, it leads one to
believe that Quebec will never in a million years meet this
government's requirements. As my colleague said, the percentage
might not be to its liking. As for the clarity of the question,
it look for someone who claims it is not clear. It is telling us
that it will consult as long as—it is not written, but we can
sense it—it has not found someone saying it is obscure. As our
leader said this morning, funny enough, both times, in 1980 and
in 1995, Mr. Trudeau and the current Prime Minister respectively
told Quebecers “Remember, the question is clear. A yes vote is
irreversible”.
So why is what is clear one day obscure the next? This is rather
strange. So, this is what is going to happen: it will be obscure
one day, and obscure the next, or rather, clear one day, and
obscure the next. This government cannot be trusted. As my
colleague said, this government has done nothing to save Canada.
It gloats it is Canadian, but it does not even know what that
means.
[English]
Mr. Dennis Gruending (Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, NDP):
Mr. Speaker, I have heard my hon. colleague talk eloquently about
the democratic need for the committee to travel. We in the NDP
agree with that, as my hon. colleague from Winnipeg mentioned
earlier.
I would be interested in a little more detail as to where the
hon. member believes the committee should go and over what period
of time. How thorough should these hearings be?
[Translation]
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay: Mr. Speaker, in Quebec we have a very
democratic process when it comes to consulting, to parliamentary
committees. The rules compel the government to publish
advertisements in newspapers saying “A committee has been struck
to study such and such a topic. If you want to have an input,
register with the committee's secretary by such and such a
date”.
Here in Canada, people are so afraid of democracy that it takes
a vote by the government majority to decide who will be called
as a witness. Witnesses have to be sponsored by a party, and
there is a limit on the number of individuals or groups who can
come and testify here.
1310
In view of the significance of the issue for Canada as a whole,
as the Prime Minister said, I believe ads should be published in
every Canadian newspaper saying that a bill has been introduced,
and that there will be hearings in the provinces that have asked
the committee to come. It should take the time to consider the
bill properly if it is really serious about the future of this
country.
Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I welcome
the opportunity to participate in today's historic debate that
has already left its mark on my short political career.
I rise today in this Canadian parliament, which has a rich
tradition and a strong respect for democracy, to condemn the
most undemocratic operation ever organized by the federal
Liberals, led by the current prime minister, the last servant of
his grand master, Trudeau.
History will show that this man dedicated his whole political
career to trampling down the people of Quebec. Today, with his
accomplice, another loyal supporter of the Trudeau philosophy,
the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, he wants to impose a
permanent gag order on the people of Quebec.
Ottawa will now decide on the future of Quebec. The men and
women who have been democratically elected to the National
Assembly are not capable of doing it. This is a real insult to
democracy. Canadian democracy, under the adepts of Trudeau's
philosophy, is sick. It no longer works.
This government is constantly imposing time allocation motions,
better known as gag motions, to silence the democratically
elected members. This parliament has become a place where
undemocratic measures are taken repeatedly.
Last week, when I saw the government House leader get up at
second reading stage to move closure again, I told myself that
democracy was on its way out.
This closure motion upset me tremendously. I would like to
remind members that for about fifteen years, I worked in the
media, where people get to hear the various declarations of the
main decision makers in society, a place where people can find
out what is going on.
Here, in Ottawa, in the House of Commons, they want to gag
democracy.
Seeing the Liberals' arrogance, I realized that members of the
House no longer have the right to express themselves and take
part in important and significant debates on the future of our
society.
The gag imposed last week and the rules set by the legislative
committee show us that this government no longer wants to listen
to the population. The Prime Minister and his Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs do not want to allow Quebecers to
express themselves. They have set up a rigid framework, limiting
to 45 the number of witnesses to be heard by the committee; 45
people will be heard in Ottawa, and nowhere else. Out of this
number, ten witnesses can be selected by the Bloc Quebecois.
Moreover, the rules of procedure laid down by the committee
endorse the whole undemocratic operation orchestrated by the
champion of arrogance in the House, the Prime Minister of
Canada.
We are now living here in Ottawa, in the House of Commons,
through some dark moments in our current democracy,
unfortunately supported by 26 members of parliament from Quebec,
26 members who refuse to see the political consequences of Bill
C-20, that constitutional ripoff.
History will be harsh with them, as harsh as it was in 1982,
when 74 Liberals unilaterally approved the patriation of the
constitution.
1315
In 1984, the Quebec people responded by throwing them out of the
Canadian parliament, and the little guy from Shawinigan, the
great democrat, resigned in 1986 because he disagreed with the
leader of the Liberals at the time, John Turner. Once again, we
we see what sense of democracy the current Prime Minister has.
I once again appeal to all my federal Liberal colleagues from
Quebec. Wake up. Bring the Prime Minister to his senses. Talk to
the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. This is serious. As a
member of the Standing Committee on Finance, I had the
opportunity to take part in consultations throughout Canada.
As a member of the Standing Committee on Agriculture, I
travelled to Australia, Washington, Paris, Chicago and even
Brazil. But today, for Bill C-20, we must stay in Ottawa and be
bulldozed under by this government, which is ignoring all the
demands of Quebecers and Canadians who would have liked to be
heard by this committee.
All opposition parties demand that this legislative committee
travel across the country and in Quebec. Since this undemocratic
bill was introduced, members of my party, the Bloc Quebecois,
have spoken out repeatedly in this House and across Quebec to
inform people of the political consequences of Bill C-20.
Only yesterday, about 20 of my colleagues travelled throughout
Quebec to condemn the approach of the legislative committee of
the House of Commons. Back home, in Lotbinière, I have had five
interviews with regional media and, during the weekend, a series
of events will be held to continue informing and alerting people
about the impact of this bill intended to muzzle Quebecers.
Again, on behalf of democracy, on behalf of Quebecers, I ask the
Liberal government to allow the committee to expand its
consultation process and to travel wherever Canadians want to be
heard.
Some 40 years ago, the people of Quebec, the people of the
riding of Lotbinière, proud Quebecers, embarked on a long
political process that will very soon lead them to Quebec's
sovereignty. It will be soon because Bill C-20 will become the
necessary political tool to convince Quebecers that the only
real way to gain complete freedom of action and to fulfil
Quebecers' expectations is sovereignty.
Neither Bill C-20 nor the antidemocratic stubbornness of Liberals
in this House will prevent me from continuing this battle, which
is so dear to me, to have Quebec's flag at the United Nations
and to live in a Quebec free of the federalist yoke once and for
all.
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is
interesting to see our colleague express his emotions while
trying to teach a lesson to my colleagues on this side of the
House.
However, he forgets that it is the supreme court ruling which
stated that the political players will be the ones to determine
what is a clear majority in reply to a clear question, depending
on the circumstances of any future referendum. This does not go
against the bill put forward by the government.
My colleague will recall that, during the last referendum, when
one entered the city of Montreal one could see posters showing
the Canadian dollar, the “looney”, with a Yes beside it. There
were other posters with a shovel and a Yes, suggesting that if
we voted yes, we would have much more money in our pockets, and
yet other posters suggesting that there would be many more jobs.
1320
This was hypocrisy on an international scale. It shows that the
question was not clear.
Is my colleague opposed to a clear question without any other
hypothesis? Does he agree with that yes or no?
Mr. Odina Desrochers: I cannot believe what I am hearing, Mr.
Speaker. I think the hon. member is from Ontario. Where is he
from?
An hon. member: From the nation's capital.
Mr. Mac Harb: I am from the nation's capital.
Mr. Odina Desrochers: Well, if I am not mistaken, the nation's
capital is in Ontario. So, I was right.
An hon. member: Close to Montfort.
Mr. Odina Desrochers: Is there a split in the nation's capital?
I cannot get over such a diagnostic! For 20 years, I worked in
the communications sector. Excuse me but I have never seen such
a twit! Do you know what a twit is in Quebec? A twit is someone
who does not understand anything, who should go back to school,
who needs to learn.
Frankly, if such explanations are supposed to convince us that
Bill C-20 will make things clearer, I am worried, very worried
indeed.
Concerning the supreme court opinion, people always seem to
forget one crucial sentence. It is because of this sentence that
we now have Bill C-20. It says that after a winning referendum,
you will have to negotiate our becoming a sovereign country. Get
that through your head once and for all!
Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have a question for the member for Lotbinière.
The hon. member suggests that we take up this issue with the
Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. Was the question put to
Mr. Facal, Quebec's intergovernmental affairs minister, who said,
in November, that the government of Quebec would never comply
with the supreme court opinion? This was a call to civil
disobedience. Does this means that the hon. member is for civil
disobedience?
I would even go further. If 50% plus one is the democratic limit
universally accepted, why is it not mentioned in Quebec's
referendum legislation? Why did Mr. Burns, the PQ minister
responsible for this legislation in Quebec, say, when
introducing this bill, that the “moral weight” of a referendum
that would be won based on the clearly and widely expressed will
of the people would have to be assessed?
I have a very interesting question for the hon. member. If 50%
plus one is the democratic limit universally accepted, does he
support the precedent that France created regarding Comoros, the
group of islands off Madagascar, when it decided that regions
that vote against independence may remain a part of France?
Mr. Odina Desrochers: Mr. Speaker, my colleague's question makes
so little sense that I would be inclined to think it was written
by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.
The member is referring to an international context that has
nothing to do with our own context. He is trying once again to
engage in demagoguery with regard to the Quebec minister of
intergovernmental affairs. Since we came back here in the
fall, the federal Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs has
repeatedly shown his arrogance by ignoring all of Quebec's
demands. In that context, I have nothing to learn from these
people.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Resuming debate. I know
that the hon. member for Châteauguay would like to ask
questions, but I promise that as soon as there is an
opportunity to do so I will give him the floor.
[English]
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
this is indeed an important debate, one in which Canadians take a
great deal of interest, and rightfully so. We are talking about
the very country in which we exist.
I believe it is important that all members of the House have the
opportunity to debate a matter such as this. I am very pleased
to be a part of this great and historic debate.
1325
The member for Rimouski—Mitis talked about the Prime Minister
having to go back to school to do his homework. I also heard
somewhat of a lecture from the hon. member for Lotbinière, who
seemed to indicate to the hon. member for Ottawa Centre that he
too should go back to school.
That kind of arrogance and condescension really is inappropriate
in the House. The hon. member opposite claims to be a
communications expert. It seems to me that he should listen to
his constituents, to the people of Quebec, and indeed to all
Canadians. People do not want to go down this path, no matter
where they live in this great country of ours. They want to talk
about jobs. They want to talk about taxation levels. They want
to talk about health. They want to talk about education. They
do not want to talk about another referendum. They do not want
to talk about the breakup of this great country. Quite frankly,
we have better things to talk about.
The motion before us today is really quite frivolous. I
certainly oppose it, and I would urge all members of the House to
do likewise.
The Bloc has moved that the House legislative committee
considering Bill C-20 hold hearings in all regions across the
country. I ask, to what purpose? Why would we do that?
My colleagues and I understand the importance of this bill. I
think everyone in Canada does. We understand the importance of
consulting Canadians. However, I and others draw the line at
insisting that the House committee cross this land to obtain
input.
The committee can and will hear ample witnesses without having
to travel. It is open to the public and we will hear a number of
witnesses, all of whom will be invited, without any holdback, to
attend. It is televised to Quebecers and to all Canadians.
Through the television they can watch the deliberations of the
committee.
The committee has decided in its own right to remain in Ottawa.
This type of decision is its prerogative and I certainly respect
that, as do other members of the House. I am confident that the
committee will be able to fulfill its mandate and satisfy
Canadians that it is an accessible and democratic process, one
that is in place and one that will serve Canada well.
I can say, for example, as chairman of the health committee,
that we deal with issues all the time of grave and great
importance to Canadians, no matter where they live. We do not
travel. We have other ways of doing it, in the sense of, through
other mechanisms, allowing witnesses to come here and still have
their say and input without having to go to that expense.
I remind the House that the committee examining the province of
Quebec's Bill 99 is not travelling through Quebec. When the
Quebec national assembly examined the Calgary declaration, Mr.
Jacques Brassard, the Quebec Minister of Intergovernmental
Affairs and Deputy Leader, said the issue was of primary concern
for all Quebecers, but that committee did not travel either.
We hear one thing from the Bloc, but we hear quite another thing
from the Government of Quebec. It is not always clear in terms
of what the Bloc wants and how it wants to go about things.
Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for
Beauce.
Let me be clear that under Quebec's referendum law, when the
national assembly examines a referendum question, it does not
even have to refer the question to committee, let alone a
travelling committee. Imagine that. It does not even have to
refer the question to a committee. It does not even have to hear
technical witnesses. It can debate the question and after 35
hours—a measly 35 hours—adopt it without listening to any
public input whatsoever.
Why has the Bloc put forward this motion to have our committee
travel? It does not strike me as being vital to the functioning
of the committee examining Bill C-20. It is simply another
example of the Bloc twisting and turning for its own purposes.
Those purposes, I say, are twisted.
1330
The committee has been tasked with studying the clarity act
which the government holds as important and urgent. I believe
that all Canadians do as well.
Bill C-20 follows the opinion of the supreme court. As
political actors, the House of Commons and the Government of
Canada have a duty to make their views known on how they should
assess the circumstances of clarity that would trigger an
obligation for the Government of Canada to negotiate secession.
In a recent press release from the Prime Minister's office it is
important to note that the government indicated:
Insisting on clarity is about respecting the rights of Quebecers
to make an informed choice. It is about respecting democracy.
Those who choose to obstruct the democratic system with cynical
delaying tactics to prevent a real debate should be held
accountable for their own anti-democratic actions.
This is what the Bloc has been doing all along. It is not on
this side of the House that it is undemocratic, it is on that
side of the House. They are the anti-democrats. What we are
seeing today is the proof and the proof justly shown. We on the
government side will have no part of it and neither will
Canadians. Bloc members are the ones accusing us of undermining
the principles of democracy by tabling the bill in the House.
Imagine. What nonsense.
On the contrary, the bill is about democracy. It reflects our
democratic heritage by ensuring that Canadians would be asked a
difficult yet clear question and that they would fully understand
the consequences.
One of the criticisms directed against us in the House relates
to the 50% plus one rule to define a majority which the Bloc
members consider ironclad. We all know that it is an
internationally recognized principle of democracy that 50% plus
one does not always suffice. It is not difficult to understand
that under some circumstances a majority of this amplitude is
simply not enough. Would it justify so grave an action as
breaking up a country such as ours? I do not think so.
A Reform member opposite caterwauls while this huge and historic
debate is going on, asking what is the number. I would point out
that in my view those Reformers opposite are every bit as much
separatists as those other people opposite. It is unbelievable
how they flip-flop on such an important issue. They have
flip-flopped repeatedly when it comes to Canada.
I would ask the Reform member opposite and all his colleagues
sitting in the House, why is it that the Reform Party does not
stand up for Canada? Why is it that the Reform Party always
wants to break things apart, pit society against society, people
against people, region against region, province against province?
Why is it that they are always intent on doing that? I do not
know. What I do know is that Canadians reject that kind of
nonsense and rightfully so.
The simple majority touted by the Bloc is not by any means
absolute. How can we be criticized for opposing a simplistic
vision of democracy which holds that a simple majority is
sufficient to take such a serious and irreversible step? The
rule of 50% plus one cannot apply when it comes to amending a
province's political and legal status. This is only common sense
and Canadians understand that. Canadians understand common
sense.
We have tabled the bill because we believe that democracy is
more than mere arithmetic, unlike the Reform Party and unlike the
Bloc. They have always been close allies. Even at their own
convention Reformers had Monsieur Biron, a separatist, as the
lead speaker. Imagine, a separatist speaking at the convention
for the Reform Party. Does that not tell Canadians a great deal
about who those Reformers are and what they stand for?
We have tabled the bill because we believe in democracy. We
believe it is important. It is a protection of rights. It is
one of the four principles the Supreme Court of Canada said we
must consider if ever we have to tackle the important issue of
secession.
1335
I want to be crystal clear. The Bloc's objective is not to have
the committee travel but to destroy Bill C-20 by unreasonable
delays. That is unacceptable. We on this side of the House will
simply not allow it.
Let us defeat this motion. Let us expose it for what it is. Let
us get on with the business of the House. That is what all
Canadians want us to do.
Mr. Rick Casson (Lethbridge, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, we have
listened to a lot of things in the House. What we just listened
to was at the bottom of the list as far as intelligence or having
any meaning or relevance in Canada.
I could not sit here and let the gentleman across the way call
me a separatist because I am not. I will do whatever I can to
work hard to keep this country together.
The motion we are debating today is about opening up the debate
and allowing Canadians to have input. I would like the member to
explain why he feels that Canadians from coast to coast to coast
should not have input into this clarity bill, a bill that has a
potential to divide the country. All Canadians have an interest
in this. All Canadians have a right to come forward and to
speak. I would like him to clarify the government's position on
not doing that.
Mr. Lynn Myers: Mr. Speaker, it is always interesting to
hear what the Reform Party has to say and how it says it.
Canadians see through its kind of tone and extremism.
I think back to before Christmas. All members know that the
Nisga'a treaty was a huge and very important treaty. When the
clarity bill which we are talking about today and that historic
Nisga'a treaty came before the House, where was the Leader of the
Opposition? He was in Mexico. We are dealing with these all
important issues and where is the Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal
Opposition? He is not in the House. I assume he is still
getting taxpayers' money to be here.
[Translation]
Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I believe
you forgot to tell him he is not allowed to mention who is not
in the House. It must be an honest oversight. I mentioned who
was present, not who was absent since that is not allowed.
My hon. colleague, who is a stalwart and, I must say, very
convincing Liberal, must recall the time when, in 1980, at the
Paul Sauvé Centre, Pierre Elliott Trudeau very eloquently stated
“Trust me, ladies and gentlemen, the question is clear. If you
vote yes, you will leave Canada”.
Fifteen years later, in the riding of Verdun, Jean Chrétien said
“Ladies and gentlemen, the choice before you is gut wrenching.
The question is clear. If you vote yes, you will leave Canada”.
By the way, they both made promises they did not keep. I am
anticipating the answer. They both promised renewal, and neither
delivered.
My point is that both said the question was clear. In 1995, 94%
of Quebecers voted on a question the Prime Minister had
determined to be clear. Why is the hon. member suggesting today
that it was not, contrary—incidentally—to what his leader, his
Prime Minister and his own party said?
Second, as my Conservative colleague from Richmond—Arthabaska
mentioned earlier, is it going to take a majority of 50% plus
one in the House to determine if the question is clear? This is
another question.
Third, who can tell us what the numbers will be? Earlier he told
the Reform member that, if you inquire about the numbers, it
means you are a separatist. But if one inquires about the
numbers when dealing with a clarity bill, it might be that one
wants to be perfectly clear. What are the numbers according to
him?
[English]
Mr. Lynn Myers: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member talks about
my historic memory. I would appeal to his historic memory.
I would appeal to him to reread the questions of 1980 and 1995. I
will not bore the House by doing it here but I can say that they
went on and on and on. They were not clear; they twisted and
turned with all kinds of nuances. That will not happen again.
1340
We as the government on this side of the House will ensure that
we will keep whatever promises we made in terms of including all
Canadians. We will also continue to provide the peace, order and
good government required by all Canadians. That is not to twist
into this kind of nonsensical equation. Rather we will make sure
that we provide jobs for Canadians. We will make sure that we
have our fiscal house in order. We will make sure that we
provide the kind of government, health care and all the things
that Canadians want.
As far as the numbers are concerned, the supreme court was very
clear. Even Mr. Bouchard said that the supreme court's judgment
had merit. The supreme court said it will be a clear question
and a clear majority. That is good enough for me. It is
democratic and it is what Canadians want.
[Translation]
Mr. Claude Drouin (Beauce, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, first, I want to
say that I am opposed to the motion introduced by the leader of
the Bloc Quebecois because it is not designed to broaden or
advance the debate on the clarity bill. On the contrary, it is
part of the Bloc Quebecois' strategy on this bill, which is more
or less respectful of democracy.
The Bloc's motion before us today would have the House
“instruct”, and I stress the word “instruct”, the legislative
committee on Bill C-20 to hold public hearings in all regions of
the country.
All of us in the House who sit on various committees are well
aware of the standing orders of the House governing committees.
We all know that the committees of the House can establish their
own rules and restrictions, as long as they do not exceed the
basic powers granted to them by the House.
We, on the legislative committee on Bill C-20, have availed
ourselves of that prerogative and decided, by ballot, that the
committee would sit only in Ottawa. We have also taken steps to
ensure that a wide range of witnesses are heard and that
committee hearings are broadcast so that the people interested
in the clarity bill can watch the debate.
So far, the legislative committee on Bill C-20 has acted in
accordance with the standing orders, but our colleagues from the
Bloc would now have the House give orders to this committee.
Now, do I have to remind this House that our colleagues from the
Bloc, after having tried everything they could to prevent the
introduction of this bill, after having delayed and disrupted
the second reading debate, tabled, on February 10, a motion that
this House decline to give second reading to this bill.
So much for the respect our colleagues have for the legislative
process which aims, as we all know, to allow open debates on
bills.
All members of this House know that the Bloc resorts to these
tactics and strategies because its members are opposed to this
bill which they consider antidemocratic. I would like to use the
time I have to go over a few basic notions of democracy and say
a few words about how democracy is perceived by the members of
the Bloc and their independentist mentors.
There is nothing like a definition to put things in their true
perspective.
Here are some simple definitions found in dictionaries. A
democracy is “a country where the people choose their government
by voting for it.” Also “a government in which the people hold
the ruling power either directly or through elected
representatives; rule by the ruled.”
As our colleague, the Minister for Intergovernmental Affairs,
said in a speech before students of the University of Montreal
law school, and I quote:
The history of Canadian democracy, despite its failures and dark
chapters, can be put up against democracy in any other
countries.
He also quoted what an historian of the University of Edinburg
said on the 150th anniversary of the responsible government in
Canada:
With regards to the crucial combination of grassroots
participation, human rights and self-government, the history of
Canada is unequalled in the world.
1345
Democracy does not boil down to simple mathematics or to a
simple majority in a vote.
In the introduction of its opinion on the reference concerning
the secession of Quebec, the Supreme Court of Canada warns
against that danger:
Democracy is a fundamental value in our constitutional law and
political culture. While it has both an institutional and an
individual aspect, the democratic principle was also argued
before us in the sense of the supremacy of the sovereign will of
a people...Democracy is commonly understood as being a political
system of majority rule.
It is essential to be clear what this means. It would be a grave
mistake to equate legitimacy with the “sovereign will” or
majority rule alone, to the exclusion of other constitutional
values.
In the January 29 issue of the prestigious magazine The
Economist there was an editorial describing what could
constitute secession rules and dealing namely with the majority
issue in light of the underlying challenges posed by the
secession project. After defining one of the problems at the
very heart of any secession project, the author asked about
those who are left behind and those who are dragged along
against their will. He declared that any secession should be
made only if a clear majority—of a lot more than 50% plus
one—opted for it freely.
After reading that article, will the proponents of separation
speak out against the editorial staff of The Economist? Probably
not. They know all too well that this 50% plus one rule, which
they say is sacred, is arbitrary, as evidenced by the fact that,
on November 24, 1996, the day after a vote of confidence in the
leader of the Parti Quebecois and current Premier of Quebec, a
headline in La Presse read “Bouchard shaken up after finding out
he does not have the confidence of one delegate out of four”.
The article said this:
Behind the scenes, it was mentioned that Mr. Bouchard, who was
expecting a lot more support, was stunned when he heard the
results in the presence of his closest advisers. Strategists had
set the psychological threshold at 80%, assuming Mr. Bouchard
would clearly get more.
The vice premier and finance minister of Quebec said, and again
I quote from La Presse “Like him, we are stunned; we would have
liked to get a lot more support”. Nobody said that Mr.
Bouchard's attitude was undemocratic. Nobody said that.
Everybody understood he wanted a clear mandate.
If, for our opponents, wanting to clarify something through
legislation within the rules of our democratically established
institutions is a breach of democracy, members will agree that
we ourselves could easily question their good faith as
democrats. Our opponents are pulling their holier-than-thou
routine. Are they really above reproach as far as behaving
as true democrats?
Philippe Séguin, the former president of the French national
assembly, found it appropriate recently to point out that one
must accept the result of a referendum even though it is
different from what one expected.
On February 1, during an interview he gave on Radio-Canada's
Téléjournal, he said:
—I was an opponent...of the Maastricht treaty...I know one cannot
hold referendums on the same issues within a relatively short
timeframe. I am an expert on lost referendums and I know that if
today, eight years after Maastricht, I was to ask for another
vote on Maastricht, my fellow countrymen would find it odd.
This person, who until very recently was a friend and ally of
Jacques Parizeau, simply recognizes that, in democracy, once the
people has expressed its will, one must accept the result.
Once voters have expressed their will, a political party must
not try again and again to obtain a result that would be
favourable to its position, hoping to wear voters down.
1350
As far as the infamous rules governing referendums on secession
to which the secessionist leaders are constantly referring to
are concerned, we are being accused of doing a flip-flop and of
suddenly refusing to abide by these rules for the wording of the
question and the majority. However, it takes two to tango. We
were never consulted when these rules were established and,
moreover, contrary to some reports, we never accepted them
complacently, as if they were untouchable principles which
absolutely could not be questioned.
I wish to remind the House that before the 1980 referendum,
the Prime Minister of Canada had very clearly said that if
somebody knocked on the door of sovereignty association, there
would be no answer.
What can be said of the leaders' refusal to recognise a role for
the members representing the people they would leave behind and
the others that they would drag along with them against their
will? Refusing the right to speak in their name to the members
of this House is, members will agree, a serious breach of
democracy.
Accordingly, members will understand my refusal to support this
motion which basically is only another example of the great
liberties that our colleagues from the Bloc are taking with
democracy. My refusal is even more categorical due to the fact
that these same colleagues are trying to us how democracy should
operate.
Mr. Ghislain Lebel (Chambly, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I listened with
interest to the speech by the hon. member for Beauce, who paid a
lot of attention to the opinion of the supreme court. He said
“The supreme court said this, the supreme court said that, the
supreme court thought that—”
The supreme court is their court. The court whose judges they
appoint. My colleague who just spoke probably does not know
this, but before 1949, when there was a dispute, particularly a
constitutional dispute, things were referred to the privy
council in London. It was a neutral arbitrator that could rule
on disputes of this nature.
I also say so for the benefit of the member sitting to the right
of the member for Beauce, because I am sure that she does not
know it either. These references to the privy council in London
were prohibited in 1949. Does my honorable colleague know that
out of the nine judges sitting on the supreme court, three come
from Quebec? These are usually not the type of people who would have
sovereignist leanings or who would even be able to understand
what the sovereignists are asking for.
It is a bit like a divorce case, where the wife would say “In
our dispute, the arbitrator will be my mother”. The verdict is
easy to predict.
Does the member who keeps talking about the supreme court not
recognize that it is acting a bit in this way? I would like to
say something, but I will not say it here because it would not
be polite. I also have a mother and she would be offended. I
would rather let him answer on the subject of his beloved
supreme court.
Mr. Claude Drouin: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate this question,
because it gives me the opportunity to quote a certain statement
to the House “I have practiced law for 20 years and I can
testify that justice in Canada is in good hands, that we have
judges who are responsible and at all times aware of their
obligations”.
This was said in the House on September 1, 1988 by Quebec's
premier himself, Lucien Bouchard, who was then the leader of the
opposition.
He added “I am for the rule of law, and it should always be
respected”. Put that in your pipe.
Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien (Frontenac—Mégantic, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
riding of Beauce is next to mine, and I know the people from
Beauce very well.
I think that, today, all the people in that riding must be quite
disappointed with their member.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien: Speaking about democracy, in the last
election in Quebec, in 1995, the riding of Beauce-Sud elected Mr.
Quirion with a majority of 68 votes. In the riding of
Beauce-Nord, Normand Poulin was elected with a majority of about
100 votes.
1355
These are not overwhelming majorities, but it was democratic. We
had judicial recounts and all citizens in Beauce accepted the
verdict, even with such narrow victories.
I have two questions for the hon. member for Beauce. If Bill C-20
is so clear, why is he refusing to travel with the committee to
his riding? That is what all his constituents want. Why is he
refusing?
In Bill C-20, the majority is not indicated anywhere. From his
seat in the House, can he tell us whether the majority will be
79%, 59% or 50% plus one? If he has any idea, let him tell us.
If not, he should not say a word. But he should tell his
constituents that he has no idea.
Mr. Claude Drouin: Mr. Speaker, in my opinon, it is deplorable
that the president of Frontenac—Mégantic should try to think for
the people of Beauce. They are quite capable of expressing
themselves. Moreover, they did so in the last election, in 1997,
by electing me.
Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. The
member was elected in 1997, like most of us. He should know that
we are here as members of parliament, not as association
presidents.
The Speaker: I will give the member 30 seconds to answer.
Mr. Claude Drouin: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry if I have been
disrespectful to you.
The hon. member for Frontenac—Mégantic mentioned there was an
election where the member for Beauce-Sud won with a majority of
68% and the other with a majority of 61%.
I think he has a
selective memory, because he forgot to mention that the member
for Beauce-Sud who replaced the late Paul-Eugène Quirion, the
member for Beauce-Sud, was elected in the next to last election
with a majority of 5,000 votes and was elected in the last one
with a majority of 3,500 votes, that the member for Beauce-Nord
was elected with a majority of 2,000 votes, whereas I myself was
elected with a majority of 10,000 votes, something I am very
proud of.
The people of Beauce are very proud to be Canadians, Quebecers
and inhabitants of Beauce.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
HEALTH
Mr. Ovid L. Jackson (Bruce—Grey, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, our
system of public health was created by Canadians who believed
that all citizens deserve equal access to high quality medical
care regardless of where they live in this great country.
Canadians I have spoken to are proud of this accomplishment.
Today our health care system is under stress. Both service
demand and costs are rising while hospitals and medical personnel
are attempting to stretch their budgets to new limits. Clearly
the realities of health care have changed over the last 30 years.
While we know more about illness prevention, we continue to
depend on technology and drugs to cure ailments that might be
addressed at a lower cost with equal success.
It is time to engage in open, inclusive debate to address the
challenges of our health care system. I believe we can continue
to provide Canadians with the care they deserve by renewing our
health care system and addressing today's realities.
* * *
CORRECTIONAL SERVICE CANADA
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, during
the year 2000 it will be my personal mandate to educate the
solicitor general on the nefarious activities of the Commissioner
of Correctional Service Canada.
The first lesson is an easy one. Guards need weapons and
inmates should not be served filet mignon. They are there to be
punished. The more serious lesson today involves the
commissioner's 50:50 plan. This policy is to reduce the inmate
population by 50% regardless of the risk.
Both the commissioner and the solicitor general will deny this
policy exists. However, in my possession I have a letter from
the warden of the Grande Cache institute congratulating his staff
for releasing 2,004 convicted offenders back into our community
and therefore exceeding the commissioner's goal of 2,000.
Tonight's homework for the solicitor general will be to read
this memo I have forwarded to his office and educate himself on
what this bungling bureaucrat is really up to. My only hope is
that the solicitor general will terminate the commissioner before
my next lesson.
* * *
1400
FLAG DAY 2000
Mr. Hec Clouthier (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, this week I was pleased and privileged to be with
over 300 students at our Lady of Fatima School in Renfrew to
celebrate a defining moment in the history of our great country,
the 35th anniversary of the unveiling of our Canadian flag.
Organized by teacher Earl Bennett, the outdoor rally on a
bright, beautiful winter morning was symbolic of all that
Canadians hold near and dear to their hearts. We paid tribute to
a shining, scintillating symbol that is recognized throughout the
world as an icon for peace, prosperity, hope and tolerance.
The theme for Flag Day 2000 was “Take pride in Canada.
The place to be in the 21st Century”.
When I looked out at these eager young students, I saw the
future of our country Canada. Rest assured, Mr. Speaker and
colleagues, that the next generation of Canadians will dare to
dream. They will reach for the stars and they will build an even
better country for each and every one of us as we march into the
next millennium.
* * *
[Translation]
STUDENT SUMMER EMPLOYMENT
Mr. Raymond Lavigne (Verdun—Saint-Henri, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this
is the time of year when students across Canada are thinking
about finding summer employment.
The Canadian government is there to give them a hand with this,
thanks to its Student Summer Job Action program.
The program offers the opportunity for secondary school, college
and university students to acquire valuable experience during
their holidays.
The program has two objectives: to encourage employers to hire a
student and to help students launch their own projects.
We wish all students who are seeking summer employment the best
of luck. I would invite all individuals, companies and students
in my beautiful riding of Verdun—Saint-Henri to take advantage of
this project. Is our Canada not a fine country?
* * *
STOCKHOLM INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE
Mr. Irwin Cotler (Mount Royal, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I wish to
share with my colleagues the concerns and aspirations that were
expressed at the recent international conference on the
Holocaust, held in Stockholm.
[English]
First, the dangers of racist hate speech, which in Bosnia and
Rwanda took us down the road to ethnic cleansing and genocide.
As the Supreme Court of Canada put it in upholding the
constitutionality of anti-hate legislation, “The Holocaust did
not begin in the gas chambers, it began with words”.
Second, the danger of remaining silent, of indifference to evil,
be it the killing fields of Sierra Leone, Chechnya or Burundi,
“Dans ce temps-ci, qui s'excuse, s'accuse”.
Third, the importance, as Sweden has demonstrated, of Holocaust
and human rights education as an antidote to racism, xenophobia
and hate.
Fourth, the struggle against impunity; of fidelity to the
Nuremberg legacy of bringing war criminals to justice.
Finally, the inspiration of a Raoul Wallenberg, the Swedish
non-Jew who saved 100,000 Jews in the Holocaust, who showed that
one person can make a difference, that each one of us in our
daily lives can make the world a better place.
* * *
GOVERNMENT GRANTS
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
this government needs to add a new page for its famous binder
boy. This page should be entitled “Accountability”.
The Speaker: Order, please. I would prefer that we
address each other by our titles rather than give each other
nicknames.
Mr. Inky Mark: Mr. Speaker, the government needs to add a
new page. This page should be entitled “Accountability”. Not
only do we see the lack of accountability in Human Resources
Development with the transitional jobs fund, but it appears more
six point plans are required in departments like heritage.
The heritage minister, through the Canada Council, signs off on
hundreds of millions of dollars worth of grants with little
scrutiny or follow-up.
The auditor general should look into it: for example, $34,000
for an artist to reflect and develop his thoughts, $34,000 for an
artist to work 18 months without the usual financial strain.
Farmers in my riding are asking for disaster relief. They are
going broke. Yet the government finds $15,000 for year two of
the continuous garbage project.
Canadian taxpayers have a simple question: Whose accountable in
the government and where will the buck stop?
* * *
ACADEMY OF MOTION PICTURE ARTS AND SCIENCES
Mr. Rick Limoges (Windsor—St. Clair, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
allow me to congratulate all of the Canadians nominated this year
by the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.
Two films by the National Film Board of Canada were nominated
for an Oscar in the short film, animated category. They are:
When the Day Breaks, directed by Wendy Tilby and Amanda
Forbis and produced by David Verrall; and My Grandmother
Ironed the King's Shirts, directed by Torill Kove and produced
by Marcy Page of the National Film Board and Lars Tommerbakke of
Studio Magika in Norway.
1405
Congratulations to the National Film Board for its 64th and 65th
Oscar nominations.
Two other films in the same category have Canadian connections:
The Old Man and the Sea, a Canada-Russia-Japan
co-production, an IMAX animated film produced by La Maison de
production Pascal Blais of Montreal; and 3 Misses, directed
by Paul Driessen also of Montreal.
The Red Violin, a Canada-Italy co-production that has
received many awards in Canada and internationally, was also
nominated for the work of composer John Corigliano for best
original score.
* * *
THE ECONOMY
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Canadians have confidence in the economy and the future. This
good news is directly related to the Liberal government's skilful
management of social and economic demands.
There are many indicators that reinforce this positive attitude.
For example, housing sales have reached record levels in many
communities. According to the Canada Mortgage and Housing
Corporation, new housing starts rose another 3% over the last
year.
The news does not end here. The Canada gross domestic product
is expected to grow by 4% in 2000. Also, the help-wanted index
has steadily risen over the last three years and this trend
continues to grow. Even factory shipments were up 9.3% at the
end of 1999.
The numbers say it all. Canadians are confident in their
economy and they are confident in their government. I am
positive that the Minister of Finance's upcoming budget will
result in even greater economic confidence for Canadians.
* * *
HEALTH CARE
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the Liberal government is responsible for the crisis in our
health care system. It has cut over $10 billion in health
transfer payments to the provinces and now fund less than 20% of
medicare costs, a far cry from its 50:50 cost sharing promise.
In my home town of Mission, B.C., severe service cuts are being
proposed at the Mission Memorial Hospital. Over 1,300 people
recently attended a public forum to share their concerns about
these proposed cuts. In addition, my office has received
hundreds of letters and phone calls urging me to bring this issue
to the attention of the Minister of Health.
The people of Mission are fearful that they may lose core health
care services in their community. This is a fear that my
constituents and all Canadians should not have to live with.
I want to tell the Minister of Health that his slash and burn
approach to health care funding hurts real Canadians.
My constituents want the government to take immediate action to
ensure that small towns like Mission can maintain adequate
facilities to care for their communities.
* * *
[Translation]
SNOW SCULPTURE
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, “Mon pays ce
n'est pas un pays, c'est l'hiver”, sang Gilles Vigneault. Last
week, the Quebec team proved it once again by winning the third
snow sculpture competition here on Parliament Hill.
Normand and Martine Rousseau, of Notre-Dame-du-Bon-Conseil, and
Camilien Belhumeur, the mayor of St-Guillaume, took first place
with a magnificent sculpture of the “Rocket”, Maurice Richard, a
hero to Quebecers and the ideal person to illustrate the passion
of our people.
This trio from the Drummondville area is not savouring its first
success. Martine and Normand Rousseau have just won for the
second consecutive year the international snow sculpture
competition at the Quebec City carnival. Camilien Belhumeur has
participated three times in the Parliament Hill competition,
coming second in 1998.
On behalf of the people in the riding of Drummond, I would like
to pay tribute to the members of the Quebec team, past masters
at their art.
Mr. Belhumeur and Mr. and Mrs. Rousseau, we are proud of you.
* * *
[English]
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Bill Graham (Toronto Centre—Rosedale, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, today I share with the House the contents of a letter to
the editor of the Globe and Mail sent by the executive
director of Dixon Hall, an important social agency in my riding
located near Regent Park, the first social housing complex built
in Canada. Still today, a very fragile social environment.
Mr. MacDougall's letter challenges an editorial about HRDC which
suggests that they are lining up at the trough for easy money and
recommends that the fund be closed. It describes the much needed
projects that this funding supports for women, for homeless
individuals, and projects that train people for jobs and work in
carpentry, child care, baking and small business development.
“For this money” he says, “we write extensive applications,
sign contracts and report monthly to HRDC—The deep impact of
HRDC funding cannot be so callously dismissed”.
Every week I visit worthwhile projects funded by HRDC in my
riding. I want the House to know that the funding that HRDC
delivers to my riding is well spent and is having a real effect
on the lives of vulnerable Canadians.
* * *
1410
CREDIT UNIONS
Mr. John Solomon (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, more and more Canadians are fed up with their banks and
are switching to credit unions. Now the credit union movement is
taking over rural bank branches deserted by the Bank of Montreal.
Can a bank change? Apparently not. Can credit unions save the
day? I am pleased to say that they have been able to save 63
jobs in rural communities across Saskatchewan by buying up 17
branches that the Bank of Montreal wanted to close, plus 17 more
branches saving 53 jobs in the province of Alberta. Former
customers of the Bank of Montreal in both provinces will be able
to continue doing business with a financial institution in their
rural communities.
I salute the important role played by co-ops and credit unions
as one of the three vital engines of the economy in our country.
As the vehicle of their members, rather than their shareholders,
co-ops and credit unions prove every day that people can run a
successful business by serving their customers instead of milking
them dry.
I congratulate the credit union movement for saving jobs and
financial services in rural Canada and helping to revitalize the
rural way of life. Well done.
* * *
[Translation]
BILL C-20
Mrs. Pierrette Venne (Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
exceptionally, the Prime Minister has told us the whole raw
truth: Bill C-20 is a “petty” bill. He did not think he was
expressing it so well, since the sense of it can readily be
extended to apply to the general attitude of the Liberals in
this matter.
Tabling the bill just before Christmas, imposing closure in the
House of Commons to prevent those opposed from speaking out;
preventing the legislative committee from travelling or even
from extending its deliberations in order to hear more
witnesses: there are not a lot of great democrats on the other
side of the House.
The federal Liberals from Quebec, far from defending democratic
values, would be prepared to give the rest of Canada a veto on
the people of Quebec's desire for change. There are indeed not
a lot of great defenders of Quebec on the other side of the
House.
Yes, Bill C-20 is a “petty” bill, another Liberal attempt to
shrink Quebec and deny the existence of its people. What else
could we expect from a “petty” government?
* * *
[English]
THE LATE ANGUS MACLEAN
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, this week
Canadians mourn the loss of a true Canadian hero and a man of the
people. Former Diefenbaker cabinet minister and P.E.I. premier,
Angus MacLean, passed away Tuesday at the age 85.
In World War II, Mr. MacLean was shot down over the Nazi
occupied Netherlands and managed, through his keen and
resourceful intelligence, to survive for 72 days on the run in
Holland.
This rural P.E.I. farmer and decorated airman decided to enter
politics in Canada in 1951. He made his way to Ottawa to
represent islanders with decency, loyalty and steadiness but
without pretensions. For the following 25 years, Mr. MacLean
became the most elected islander in P.E.I. history.
In the mid-1970s, Mr. MacLean decided to return home to P.E.I.
to his farm. But, he still had politics flowing in his veins. He
went on to win the leadership of the provincial Tory Party and
brought the his party to government in 1979.
Angus MacLean was a true Canadian hero in war and a true
Canadian patriot in his public service.
* * *
NORTHERN SCIENTIFIC TRAINING PROGRAM
Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
Northern Scientific Training Program, NSTP, has helped students
study in Canada's north for more than 30 years. Each year the
NSTP supports hundreds of students in valuable research projects
and learning and living projects.
However, the NSTP has been cut back to a shadow of its former
self. Today, when research in the north is more important than
ever before and when the importance of young Canadians gaining
life experience in remote parts of Canada is especially
important, the NSTP is at its lowest level in decades.
I urge the government and the minister to restore funding to
this unique and important national program. Let us help our
young people help Canada's north.
* * *
FISHERIES AND OCEANS
Mr. Mark Muise (West Nova, PC): Mr. Speaker, the Minister
of Fisheries and Oceans is quite fortunate that the Atlantic
fisheries crisis is being overshadowed by the troubles in HRDC.
The fisheries crisis may be out of the limelight, but I can
assure the House that a serious problem still exists. I am
telling the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, no. I am warning
him that violence could once again erupt if solutions are not
soon found to the problems.
We are hearing through the grapevine that the government is
seriously looking for some kind of buyback program where it will
purchase boats, licences and gear to help integrate natives into
the commercial fishery.
I would strongly suggest to the minister that any such solution
must somehow involve the elimination of the food fishery;
otherwise, these resources may be used during the summer months
to help non-status Indians to conduct their own fishery. If this
should occur, we can surely expect serious unrest.
I can only hope that the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans will
take these concerns seriously before finalizing any agreement in
this dispute.
* * *
1415
AMATEUR SPORT
Mr. Alex Shepherd (Durham, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Canadians
interested in sports have suffered the setbacks of watching some
of their own athletes accused of taking illicit drugs. That is
why I am pleased to acknowledge the hosting in Montreal by the
hon. Secretary of State for Amateur Sport of the Montreal
workshop on anti-doping in sports.
In this workshop commenced yesterday Canada is playing host to
over 30 international governmental delegations in a meeting to
advance the role of governments in the fight against doping in
sports.
It is a great distinction for Canada to play host to such a
prestigious event in the field of amateur sport. It speaks
volumes about the government's commitment to enhancing Canada's
amateur sport both here and worldwide.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, in
order to qualify for Canada jobs fund grants a riding must have
an unemployment rate of greater than 10% according to 1997
figures.
This past November 1, 1999, the HRD minister approved two CJF
grants totalling $640,000 in her very own riding. Will the
minister confirm these facts?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, what I will confirm is that when I became
Minister of Human Resources Development Canada I delegated the
authority for approvals in my riding to my deputy minister.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the minister knows that the Canada jobs fund requires a 1997
unemployment rate of 10% for any given riding to qualify.
In 1997 the riding of Brant did not exceed that 10% threshold,
no matter the deputy minister or who would give approval to that.
By what authority did the minister authorize these grants?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, first, as I mentioned, I did not
authorize them because I delegated the authority for decisions in
my riding to the deputy minister. Second, the employment region
in which my riding falls was 10.3%.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
that is not true. The average rate for unemployment in 1997 in
the riding of Brant, the category and the criteria for which the
Canada jobs fund looks at, was in fact 8.4%, by her own
documents.
One cannot delegate authority for these things. She is the MP.
She is the minister. I do not think one can just delegate to the
deputy minister.
Since she ultimately approved grants to her own riding in spite
of the fact that it clearly did not qualify, can she tell us what
constitutes an illegal grant?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we did qualify. In fact the investments
are making a difference in the opportunities available to the
people in my riding.
I stand in my place and I am very grateful, as are the people in
my riding, for the opportunities that the Government of Canada
has presented to them as individuals and to our community as a
whole.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
terms and conditions of the Canada jobs fund are very specific.
They say the rules can only be amended with the approval of
treasury board. Clearly, the 8.4% unemployment rate in the
minister's riding did not meet the guidelines to receive $640,000
in CJF grants that she herself approved on November 1.
Can the minister tell us and will she produce the authorization
from treasury board that gave her the authority to break those
rules?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, no rules were broken. As I mentioned the
employment region was 10.3%.
What is clear is that hon. members opposite stand here day after
day and say they want to kill these very important programs. Here
and nationally that is the message they give. However, back home
in their own ridings they say to their own constituents “Yes, we
will write letters in support of your undertaking. Yes, we think
these grants and contributions make a difference”. They cannot
have it both ways.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
what we want to do is clear up a billion dollar bungle that the
government and this minister continue to perpetuate.
Given that the minister did not receive treasury board approval,
and she absolutely did not, rather obviously, under whose
authority did she break the rules to reward her own riding with
$640,000 in CJF grants? Whose authority?
1420
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, no rules were broken. A billion dollars
are not missing. I am taking the responsibility as minister to
fix the administrative problems in my department, and it will be
done.
* * *
[Translation]
HERITAGE CANADA
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, when
we look at the figures for Canada Day, we see that the
Department of Canadian Heritage spent $3.5 million in Quebec in
1999—
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
The Speaker: Order, please. The leader of the Bloc Quebecois.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: The cheerleaders are getting worked up, Mr.
Speaker.
As I was saying, in 1999 the Department of Canadian Heritage
spent $3.5 million in Quebec out of a budget of $5.4 million.
This represents 65% of the total envelope.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: Could the minister tell us the reason for
this unusual generosity toward Quebec?
Hon. Sheila Copps (Minister of Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it is a fact that, on average, 50% of the cultural
budget of the Department of Canadian Heritage is spent in
Quebec.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): I will rephrase
the question, Mr. Speaker.
Ontario gets $500,000 for Canada Day, while Quebec gets $3.5
million. There are 43 laboratories and research centres in
Ottawa, but none in Quebec. We would trade some fireworks for a
few laboratories.
Is the truth not found in the letter written by Canada Day
president, Serge Savard, where he says that the federal
government must ensure greater visibility in sovereignist
strongholds—
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew: There are fewer and fewer of them.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: Mr. Speaker, if the minister—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please, the leader of the Bloc Quebecois.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: Mr. Speaker, I was amazed to hear the
Minister for International Trade speak. I thought he had lost
the ability.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: I would like the minister to tell us if that
is not the real reason, because Serge Savard thought he should
depoliticize Canada Day.
Hon. Sheila Copps (Minister of Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to remind the member of the facts. The
fact is that 28% of the money spent on research by the
Government of Canada is spent in Quebec.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Hon. Sheila Copps: In addition, 33% of money invested in the
private sector is invested in Quebec. I have never heard the
member opposite complain about the fact that 50% of cultural
funding goes to Quebec.
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in the same
letter to the Minister of Canadian Heritage, it is said that
officials from Heritage Canada pose as volunteers on Canada Day,
when they are in fact paid out of the department's budgets.
How can the minister explain that these pseudo-volunteers are
paid time and a half for the first seven hours and then double
time to work on Canada Day, this with public moneys?
Hon. Sheila Copps (Minister of Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I simply remind the member that those who complain
because we try to celebrate our country should know that we do
intend to celebrate it and we want to do it in every riding.
This is why we have a Canada Day celebration committee in the
riding of Rimouski. I think the hon. member for Rimouski—Mitis is
very aware of the existence of that committee.
We attended Family Day in Chicoutimi. We also helped the
Association des bénévoles de l'hôpital Saint-Félix—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Portneuf.
1425
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I think the
minister is suffering from the same syndrome as does the
Minister of Human Resources Development.
The director general of the Quebec region himself complained
that this use of public moneys was depriving him of money needed
for his normal operations. Incidentally, since the near-victory
of the yes side in the 1995 referendum, the Canada Day budget
has increased by 1,120%.
Is this an illustration of Pierre Trudeau's view, who said that
the best way to counterbalance the appeal of separatism was to
allocate time, energy and huge amounts of money to—
The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Canadian Heritage.
Hon. Sheila Copps (Minister of Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we are not afraid to recognize that we are a country,
that we are still a country, all the more so since Bloc
Quebecois members made requests of that nature. For example, the
member for Manicouagan asked for 75 Canadian flags of a certain
size, the member for Portneuf wants 300 flags of—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. The hon. member for
Winnipeg—Transcona.
* * *
[English]
GASOLINE PRICES
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Minister of Industry. Yesterday the
minister indicated that he thought the rising price of oil and
gas was strictly a provincial matter, which is an odd point of
view given that the Governor of the Bank of Canada thinks it is
an issue, as does the Chairman of the Federal Reserve in the
United States. Even President Bill Clinton has expressed his
concern about it.
Is there a pattern here of not being able to stand up to the oil
and gas industry? First the Minister of Foreign Affairs
collapses over Sudan and then the Minister of Industry will not
take his responsibilities, washing his hands of the problem of
rising oil and gas prices.
When will the government express its concern and when will the
government take its responsibility and tell the House what it
intends to do about rising oil and gas prices?
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, to that remarkably foolish question let me say that we
have expressed our concern over gas prices repeatedly on this
side of the House. We have financed several studies by the
Competition Bureau into determining whether there is competition
in the industry. The competition police so far have not found
any offence under the Competition Act.
The superlative investigative skills of the New Democratic Party
apparently can find such evidence when all the police at the
Competition Bureau cannot. Congratulations to them. Let them
give us the evidence and then we will proceed under the proper
law.
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, Canadians cannot burn Liberal studies in their cars.
They burn gas and oil and they want to know that something can be
done about it.
I will perhaps ask the Minister of the Environment or the
Minister of Natural Resources a supplementary question, because
the underlying issue here is whether or not we are going to
eventually break our dependence on these kinds of fuels, on
exhaustible resources and on the internal combustion engine.
I want to ask the appropriate minister this question. Does the
government have any new plan, given the fact that these high
prices may be maintained, for breaking our dependence on the
internal combustion engine and finally getting around to doing
many of the things that were recommended in the seventies and
eighties?
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, if the hon. gentleman followed the policy announcements
and the investment plans of the Government of Canada, he would
know among other things that we have made very substantial
investments in support of fuel cell technology which holds
enormous promise for the future, with a burgeoning industry in
British Columbia and across the country led by the Ballard
corporation that the government is very strongly supporting.
We are also investing with the Iogen Corporation of Ottawa in
alternative fuels such as ethanol which can reduce the CO2
emissions by up to 90%. Yes, indeed, we are pursuing the new
innovations and the new fuels of the 21st century.
* * *
1430
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, yesterday in the House the Minister for HRDC stated
that she was using Statistics Canada figures to justify TJF money
that was flowing into her riding. We have been informed by
Statistics Canada that they do not produce unemployment numbers
on a riding by riding basis.
My question to the minister is very simple. Where did the
minister get her numbers?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I repeat again that they did come from
Statistics Canada. That process has now stopped, but in the
context of this project the numbers that were made available to
the department came from Statistics Canada and they indicated
quite clearly that this was an area of high unemployment.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, in recent conversations with an official from
StatsCan we were told “I am very suspicious. I don't know how
HRDC comes up with these numbers”.
Given this direct contradiction, can the minister tell us why
she is using bogus numbers to circumvent the rules for her own
department?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let me say again that the riding of Brant
was an area of very high unemployment, spiking at over 14%. Very
clearly the program, the transitional jobs fund, was there to
assist ridings like mine. I am absolutely convinced that it is
these programs that have helped men and women in my riding find
opportunities that otherwise would not have been there.
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the minister's nose is growing. A minute ago she told us—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. I ask the hon. member to
choose his words wisely.
Mr. Jason Kenney: I will, Mr. Speaker, and I wish the
minister would choose her statistics wisely. A moment ago she
told us that the unemployment rate in 1997 in her riding was
10.3%. I have in my hand the unemployment statistics of the
human resources development department for
Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant with respect to comparative
unemployment rates, which indicate in 1997 an average rate of
8.4%, and in every month, save one, a lower unemployment rate
than Ontario and the national average.
How can this minister stand in her place and not tell the truth,
that her riding did not—
The Speaker: The hon. member for
Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, when we asked the Minister of Human Resources
Development yesterday about the Corbeil case, she said that it
had been settled in law. Corbeil has acknowledged his guilt and
therefore acknowledged having acted illegally. But what has not
yet been settled is the fact that it seems it is easier to get a
hold of the lists of projects when it is illegal than when it is
legal.
Could the minister explain why members are unable to get details
on the files of Human Resources Development Canada for their own
ridings today?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I categorically reject the statements
made by the member opposite. I remind the House again that he
himself talked about the transitional jobs fund and was
congratulating himself as an opposition member for being so
successful in getting these projects in his own riding.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, in Quebec, 318 Canada jobs fund projects were
approved in 43 ridings, that is, an average of six per riding,
excluding Anjou—Rivière-des-Prairies, which received 54.
Why is it so difficult for members to obtain documents
pertaining to their files when there are so few? Could I have
an answer?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let me say again, as I have said on a
number of occasions in the House and at committee, that I have
heard the messages from members of parliament. I have asked my
department to look at all the grants and contributions to see if
indeed they can put the information together in a way that will
be useful to members of parliament. We are working on that
undertaking and I will provide the information when it is
available.
Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, we are not asking about whether or not
the HRDC grants were good. We can get to that later.
What we are asking about is what criteria was used to approve the
grants given in 1999. The rules required 10% unemployment or
more in 1997. The riding of Brant clearly did not qualify.
1435
Under what criteria did the human resources minister approve
Canada jobs fund grants in her riding?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, again I want to make it clear that I did
not personally approve projects in my riding after becoming
minister.
I want to say that under the Canada jobs fund the economic
region in which my riding falls had an unemployment rate of 10.3%
and it qualified for these projects.
Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, Canadians are not buying these answers.
Surely the HRDC minister has a requirement to follow department
rules about grants, yet she approved two grants just last
November, knowing full well that her area did not qualify. There
were no pockets of unemployment. The offence is very clear.
The question remains, under what authority did the human
resources minister approve those 1999 grants for her riding?
Maybe a special deal with the Minister of Finance?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, what Canadians are not buying is that
this party stands in the House day after day and says
“Transitional jobs funds, Canada jobs funds, get rid of them.
We do not want them”, while at the same time individual members,
like the member for Nanaimo—Cowichan, the member for
Kootenay—Columbia and the member for Skeena, write to support
their individual constituents who are the beneficiaries of these
very important programs.
Canadians know that this party cannot have it both ways.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphan Tremblay (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Minister of Human Resources Development has passed severe
judgment on the administration of her predecessor in that
portfolio, in describing his administration as fit for the
Middle Ages.
That judgment notwithstanding, and despite all that has been
said or written on the matter, the Minister for International
Trade remains imperturbable.
Can the minister tell this House whether he feels implicated by
the very harsh judgment by his colleague of his administration
of the department of Human Resources Development?
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: The hon. member may ask his second question.
Mr. Stéphan Tremblay (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ): Mr. Speaker, when in
Paris, the Minister for International Trade announced that he
would answer press questions once he returned to Ottawa. He
changed his mind, of his own accord surely, once he got back
here.
Yesterday, the minister said he had made the decision, on his
own, not to answer questions by parliamentarians on his time at
Human Resources Development Canada.
Is he capable, on his own, of changing his mind and, on his
honour and by his own decision, of appearing before the
committee?
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: The hon. member for Calgary—Nose Hill.
[English]
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, we have a very serious matter on our hands today because
the Minister of Human Resources Development has stood in the
House and said that her riding qualified for CJF grants because
it had an unemployment rate of 10.3%. However, I hold in my hand
the statistics from her very own department for Brant, which show
that in no month for the operative year was unemployment at
10.3%. In fact, the average for that year was 8.4%.
I invite the minister to explain this very clear discrepancy.
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the riding of Brant qualified for Canada
jobs funds as a result of being part of the Niagara economic
region which had an unemployment rate of 10.3%.
These programs have made a difference in my community, and I
remind the opposition members that there were times when they
came to my riding and they spoke about how difficult the times
were there. They challenged me as a member of parliament to
stand and do something for my community.
We have done that and I am very proud of it.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I suggest to the minister that her pride is sadly
misplaced because she cannot and has not produced justification
for putting money into her riding.
She brings forward figures which are not supported either by
Statistics Canada or by her own department.
1440
I think it is very important that this minister restore some
credibility to what she is saying and explain and produce the
documents that she is basing her allegations on because clearly
something is not adding up.
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we see time and time again the inability
of the Reform Party to understand these programs, to understand
the audit, to mix messages and mix information.
I have made it very clear that in the context of the Canada jobs
fund my riding was eligible as a result of being part of the
Niagara economic region which had an unemployment rate of 10.3%.
I would ask hon. members opposite to take the time to get either
a technical briefing or read the material that has been made
available on these programs and on the internal audit.
* * *
[Translation]
PARENTAL INSURANCE
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the Government
of Quebec is working on a parental insurance plan, which has
received widespread support from all quarters in Quebec. Quebec
is claiming its share of the $300 million that the federal
government wants to invest in a similar, Canada-wide program.
The Minister of Human Resources Development left the door open
to an agreement in this regard.
Could the minister tell us when she intends to grant the
Government of Quebec's request, so that Quebec can go ahead with
its plan for 2001?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I remind the House that we entered into
negotiations with the Government of Quebec on this issue in 1997.
Indeed they left the table. We felt we had made a fair offer and
they chose to leave the table. That offer is still on the table.
As for our responsibilities and interests now, we indicated in
the Speech from the Throne that we are going to focus on parental
benefits, to expand them and make them more accessible and
flexible. That is where my attention is turned.
* * *
IMMIGRATION
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the province of Ontario is concerned that the federal government
is not expediting the immigration process to help fill the need
for cancer radiologists.
Can the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration explain to the
House exactly what is going on?
Hon. Elinor Caplan (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I first learned about this situation from
the newspaper. I got the facts and I picked up the phone and
called Cancer Care Ontario because I was concerned that we in
immigration could do our part to ensure that Ontario had the
human resources necessary to deliver cancer care to people. I
did not play politics like Mike Harris; I picked up the phone.
This problem is the result of the cuts that he made to the
program. Notwithstanding that, all he had to do, all the
minister of health had to do and all the minister of citizenship
and immigration for Ontario had to do was to call to ask for my
help. I would have done everything I could. They did not call
and I was very—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Okanagan—Coquihalla.
* * *
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan—Coquihalla, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday the member for Hamilton Mountain said that Duchess
Foods never went to HRDC. She said that Duchess Foods never
asked for a grant and that, in fact, Duchess Foods never asked
for anything at all.
Why did the minister of HRDC give $370,000 in a grant to move
jobs, not create jobs, but to move jobs from Hamilton Mountain, a
short distance down the road, to the minister's riding? Why did
she do that?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, indeed Duchess Foods was looking for
expanded property. They worked with the economic development
officials in the city of Hamilton and could find no suitable
properties. They looked farther afield and indeed came to the
riding of Brant. We were glad to welcome them and additional
jobs have been created.
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan—Coquihalla, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
there is no doubt it was a business decision, but the member for
Hamilton Mountain did say that Duchess Foods did not go to HRDC.
In fact, they never asked for any money whatsoever.
If Duchess Foods did not ask for any money, why did the minister
give $370,000 to Duchess Foods? Was it not just to enhance the
minister's own political career?
1445
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as is the intention of the program, we
wanted to ensure that members of the community in my riding had
opportunities for work that did not exist before. The men and
women who had not been able to find employment because of
particular circumstances had the opportunity to have the dignity
of a job.
In this particular context, there were several community
partners, including the federation of agriculture, that were
looking for value added opportunities in the agricultural area
for our community. They supported us as did others in this
investment.
Mrs. Michelle Dockrill (Bras d'Or—Cape Breton, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, in September 1998 Scotia Rainbow, a company owned by
Serge Lafrenière, an influential Liberal supporter, received a
TJF grant of $750,000.
Through access to information we have learned two conflicting
versions of the Scotia Rainbow story. One is that it received $1
million from TJF. The other is that it received $2 million from
TJF.
Can the minister explain how a $750,000 grant became a $2
million cheque to a big Liberal supporter?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we are very proud of the investments that
the Government of Canada has made in the province of the hon.
member. That province has had considerable concerns with
providing employment opportunities to its members. As a partner
in all these undertakings, we know that the federal government
can help make a difference. It has done so in Bras d'Or and in
other parts of Cape Breton.
Mrs. Michelle Dockrill (Bras d'Or—Cape Breton, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, the minister knows the NDP are not against good job
creation initiatives, but this is about the integrity of the
government and the minister.
Documents clearly show Scotia Rainbow received $2 million for
job creation, but the company's financial statement shows that it
only spent 7% of that money on salaries.
Is this the minister's definition of job creation or a way to
funnel money to Liberal supporters?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, again I worked with the hon. member in
terms of helping her provide opportunities for the men and women
in her riding.
These programs, whether they be transitional jobs fund or Canada
jobs fund, have made a real difference in the province of Nova
Scotia and they will continue to do so.
Mr. Jean Dubé (Madawaska—Restigouche, PC): Mr. Speaker,
the Minister of Human Resources Development likes to use the term
pockets of unemployment. There is no mention of pockets of
unemployment in the criteria for HRDC. I assume she was
referring to the ridings of Sarnia and Hamilton Mountain which
saw two companies pull out and move to the minister's riding. Her
riding received close to $2 million in TJF funds, yet the
minister's riding did not qualify for TJF.
Did the minister use her cabinet clout as a minister to have her
riding qualify?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, absolutely not.
Mr. Jean Dubé (Madawaska—Restigouche, PC): Mr. Speaker,
according to Statistics Canada the riding of Brant did not
qualify for TJF funding. It did not qualify using the economic
region criteria. It did not qualify according to data for the
city of Brantford. It did not qualify according to the county of
Brant statistics that the minister selectively used on Monday.
I am willing to table my statistics. Is the minister willing to
table hers?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I say again that the riding did qualify
as a result of Statistics Canada numbers.
I want to make it clear to the House that no jobs were taken
from other communities. I have explained the Duchess
circumstances. It came as a business opportunity and created
extra jobs. With regard to RMH, I am glad to say that that
company is expanding and just recently opened a call centre in
the city of Sarnia.
* * *
PULP AND PAPER INDUSTRY
Mrs. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, the federal government in partnership with the Pulp
and Paper Institute of Canada and its members participated in a
research program to achieve a progressive closure system in
Canadian pulp and paper mills.
I would like the Secretary of State for Science, Research and
Development to tell us just what the implications and benefits of
this research program can be for Canada.
1450
[Translation]
Hon. Gilbert Normand (Secretary of State (Science, Research and
Development), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her
interesting question.
On Friday, February 11, I announced a $9 million investment by
Technology Partnerships Canada in research into the latest
environmental technologies for reducing pollution from Canadian
pulp and paper plants.
Research will be done by PAPRICAN, the Pulp and Paper Research
Institute of Canada in Pointe-Claire, Quebec—which proves that
research is being done in Quebec—and will generate 176 senior
level jobs in Pointe-Claire.
This project is indicative of the importance to Canada's future
of investing in the knowledge economy and in this way we will
work to build—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Calgary East.
* * *
[English]
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, not
only did Duchess Foods receive transitional jobs funds, it also
received $1.5 million from the Business Development Bank of
Canada, as well as the targeted wage subsidies. Altogether 90% of
the move was financed by the federal government. Is it a
legitimate role of the federal government to pay the moving costs
of profitable companies?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member gives me the opportunity
to say again that on this side of the House we do believe that
the Government of Canada has a role to play in communities one by
one by one across the country where we find there are problems.
On that side of the House they would like issues of unemployment
to fester. They would like people to just stand on their own and
look after themselves.
This is one of the fundamental, philosophical differences that
we find between this side of the House and that party. I think
that Canadians want the truth of this. Instead, they stand here
and undermine these projects in the House, yet go home and tell
their constituents that they support them.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Standing Committee on Human Resources Development has decided to
ask former deputy minister Mel Cappe and the President of the
Treasury Board to appear, to try to shed light on the serious
problems at the Department of Human Resources Department.
Does the minister not agree that her predecessor's testimony
would be at least as important to better understand what
occurred in her department? I am asking the question to the
current minister, since the Minister for International Trade
does not want to answer for his actions.
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, citation 410 of Beauchesne's is
very clear in that regard.
[English]
Citation 410(16) reads:
[Translation]
Period. In French, in English and in Latin.
* * *
[English]
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Dick Proctor (Palliser, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
agriculture minister is begging other nations to reduce their
trade distorting subsidies which he said last week are the root
cause of the devastating drop in the incomes of Canadian grain
farmers. Whether they are the culprits or not, the minister knows
that reducing subsidies are years if not light years away.
By adopting such a paws up supine position, is the minister
suggesting that Canada is so impoverished that it cannot afford
to invest in our grain farmers to the same extent that other
nations are investing in theirs?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have the support of our farmers across
Canada in addressing the unfortunate circumstances they are in
due to a number of issues, whether it be the weather,
international market prices, or an unfair and unlevel playing
field as far as subsidies are concerned. Probably our pockets in
Canada are not as deep as those in some other countries. We
recognize that.
We as the federal government are there. I would encourage the
hon. member to return to his home province to be there too with
the federal government.
* * *
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of National Defence.
We have heard for the last two weeks about mismanagement in
HRDC. Is it mismanagement in defence or the lack of will of the
minister that we do not have replacements for those aging Sea
Kings that are jeopardizing the lives of the pilots?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we are not jeopardizing the lives of any
pilots. We make sure that our equipment is safe to fly before it
is put in the air.
I have indicated before that it is the government's highest
priority to replace the Sea Kings. We are on a clear path that
involves the replacement of the current helicopter by 2005 and we
will continue in that direction. Meanwhile we will make sure
that any aircraft put up in the air is safe to fly.
* * *
1455
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the minister so far has failed to explain why her
statistics are not validated by either Statistics Canada or her
own department. There is some question about whether Brantford is
even in the Hamilton-Niagara Peninsula, which is the economic
region that is used by Statistics Canada for some statistical
purposes.
Would it not be simple for the minister to table the document or
the statistics on which she is relying so that this matter can be
cleaned up very quickly?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, that is the hon. member who in a press
release talked about my riding as being very close to the city of
Toronto. When the people in my riding read about that, they knew
that the messages and allegations that were being presented by
that party were absolutely unfounded and not worth listening to.
I say again in the context of the transitional jobs fund and the
Canada jobs fund, they have made a difference in my riding. No
rules were broken. Men and women who otherwise would not be
working are working.
* * *
[Translation]
HOUSING
Ms. Raymonde Folco (Laval West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, yesterday,
the minister responsible for the Canada Mortgage and Housing
Corporation announced the granting of 14 financial contributions
through the Affordability and Choice Today program, the ACT.
Could the minister explain to the House how this program can
help Canadians find affordable housing?
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Public Works and Government
Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Affordability and Choice Today
program is the result of a partnership with the Federation of
Canadian Municipalities, the Canadian Home Builders' Association
and the Canadian Housing and Renewal Association.
This year, one of the 14 projects that we are sponsoring is a
proposal to turn an abandoned plant into a place to live and
work for young professionals and self-employed workers. This is a
good program to create affordable housing.
* * *
ANTIPERSONNEL MINES
Mr. René Laurin (Joliette, BQ): Mr. Speaker, Canada has assumed
the lead role internationally in opposing the use of
antipersonnel mines. It signed the UN international treaty on
this. It passed Bill C-22 banning these mines and with great
pomp and circumstance made the announcement in November 1997
that it had destroyed the last one, boasting about this every
chance it got.
How can the minister explain that Canadian soldiers are using
Claymore mines in East Timor, since these are as deadly as other
antipersonnel mines?
[English]
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Claymores are not land mines. Claymores
are used as any other weapon would be used in a defensive
fashion. They create a shotgun approach. If the troops that are
on the defensive are outnumbered by those on the offence, they
would only be used under those kind of circumstances, and with
somebody actually pulling a trigger. They are not like a land
mine that is put in the ground and which somebody trips over to
set it off. They are not in the same category.
Canada fully complies with the anti-personnel land mines treaty.
* * *
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, while
the government has indicated that it will make it easier for
those veterans labelled as suffering from post-traumatic stress
disorder to apply for pensions, the big question of depleted
uranium remains unaddressed.
Depleted uranium was found in the body of Nova Scotia veteran
Terry Riordon. There are others seeking testing and treatment
for depleted uranium.
Will the government ensure speedy, thorough and efficient
testing in the treatment of CF members and veterans, and take a
leadership role in calling for an international treaty banning
the use of depleted uranium in weapons?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the announcement from my colleague the
Minister of Veterans Affairs is most welcome in terms of the
pensions for those who have suffered from post-traumatic stress
disorder.
1500
That is completely in accordance with what my department and
what the government want to do. We want to look after our
troops. We want to make sure if any of them go over healthy and
come back sick that in fact we look after them.
In terms of depleted uranium I have indicated that we do want
people who feel they might have been affected to come forward.
They will be tested. We will give them every opportunity to do
so. We want to make sure that they are properly looked after.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, I guess
maybe the Minister of National Defence should apply to HRDC to
get enough money to buy the Sea Kings that we need. That is
probably the way he could get it.
The government cancelled the EH-101 contract, which was the
helicopter we should have today. We have lost lives. We have
heard throughout the past year from the minister that the
government is to replace the Sea Kings. When will it replace the
Sea Kings?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I answered that in the previous question,
but let me say something else. If the Conservatives when they
were in power had not bungled the helicopter matter, spending far
more money than what was needed for a helicopter that was totally
inappropriate for today's needs, we would be a lot further ahead
in terms of this replacement at this point in time. They wasted
taxpayer money.
* * *
[Translation]
PRIVILEGE
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, during Oral
Question Period, I asked the Minister of Canadian Heritage to
explain the use of public funds for purposes other than those
for which they were intended.
In her response, the minister reproached me for having
distributed 300 Canadian flags in my riding.
I consider it my privilege to rectify both the facts and the
reproaches relating to the carrying out of my legitimate duties
as a member of parliament coming from the Minister of Canadian
Heritage.
First of all, as far as the facts are concerned, I wish to
inform this House that I received from the Minister of Canadian
Heritage a single box of 75 Canada flags and not—
The Speaker: This is not a question of privilege, it is merely
debate.
Mr. Pierre de Savoye: Perhaps the second part, Mr. Speaker—
The Speaker: That is enough.
* * *
[English]
POINTS OF ORDER
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
during the course of the question period just ended Your Honour
ruled out of order, I presume, the question I put to the Minister
of Human Resources Development and did not permit me to put a
second question.
I infer from the Speaker's ruling that you objected to my use of
the term not telling the truth. I refer Your Honour to article
490 of Beauchesne's which states:
Since 1958, it has been ruled parliamentary to use—
1505
The Speaker: I refer the hon. member to Standing Order 18
on page 522 of the M and M. I would hope that all hon. members
would take to heart what has transpired in the last few days. If
I might permit myself this small comment, I appreciate the fact
that the House generally and all of us here are possibly trying
to rectify what went on in the last few days.
As much as possible I am trying to keep it so hon. members can
be heard and the people giving answers can be heard. I would
hope that we would not use terms which would cause disorder
because that is what I am referring to. I consider this matter
to be closed.
PARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I rise on a point of order. In preparing for question
period every day it is important for us, in preparing our
questions, to know what language we can or cannot use. Our only
reference is to the standing orders, Beauchesne's and other
reference books.
It would help us a great deal, Mr. Speaker, if somehow you could
provide a list of what words and terms we can use so that we do
not have you interrupt our questions.
The Speaker: I wish I could give the member a precise
list. Usually I am guided by what transpires in the question
period. To that effect, some days members use a certain term and
there is no reaction in any part of the House.
When there is disorder I try to rectify it so that we can get on
with the question period. Indeed, that is what many members
urged me to do yesterday. I am trying to conduct our business in
as good a fashion as I can.
[Translation]
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have always
felt that the work a member does in his riding should be
non-partisan. After all, we are representing all of our
constituents.
In the riding of Portneuf, there are citizens who want Canadian
flags and, until today, I made a point of getting them for them.
There is not a huge demand, but I felt that it was my duty as
an MP to respond to it.
The minister's remarks suggest that she does not feel that this
is my job and I hereby announce that I am going to give her back
the flags I have left.
The Speaker: That is not a question of privilege.
* * *
[English]
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
will try to use very temperate language and make this as
straightforward as I can.
Could the government House leader give us some idea of what we
can expect for government business tomorrow and for the early
part of next week?
1510
Perhaps he could also let us know whether he expects the debates
to go on and on, or whether he plans to bring in time allocation
on any of the bills.
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, today is a Bloc Quebecois
opposition day.
[Translation]
Tomorrow, Friday, we will deal with Bill C-16. Naturally, I
would have liked to examine Bill C-13 on Canadian Institutes of
Health Research but, so far, no consensus has been reached for
speedy passage of this bill.
In the afternoon, we will proceed to third reading of Bill C-10,
the Municipal Grants Act.
[English]
Next Monday we will return to Bill C-23, the benefits and
obligations modernization legislation. On Tuesday we will return
to Bill C-2, the elections bill. On Wednesday we shall either
take up one of the bills listed for Friday morning or we shall
commence on the airlines bill introduced earlier this day. Next
Thursday shall be an allotted day.
I noted with interest when the hon. member asked me if there was
an intention on the part of the opposition to obstruct the
legislation presently before the House. I am sorry that I cannot
answer that question. I am not privy to that, but he can rest
assured that if the opposition provides obstruction the
government will behave in its usual and non-partisan objective
way to ensure that the program of the government is fulfilled.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[Translation]
SUPPLY
ALLOTTED DAY—LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE ON BILL C-20
The House resumed consideration of the motion and of the
amendment.
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased
to speak on the motion of the Bloc Quebecois ordering the
legislative committee studying Bill C-20 to hold public hearings
in all regions of Quebec and Canada so as to hear as many
witnesses as possible having an interest in this bill, and
expressing other considerations.
It is important to explain to Quebecers and Canadians why the
Bloc Quebecois, with the support of all opposition parties, is
so vocal in its condemnation not only of the so-called clarity
bill but also of the process whereby this bill will be rushed
through the House.
In the short time I have, I will speak of the content of the
bill as well as of the accelerated process.
This bill, which is entitled—we have no choice but to say it, as
but we find that it is not well named—an act to give effect to
the requirement for clarity. For the record, this bill was born
under the influence of the instigator of the government's plan
B, in the days following the referendum where the yes side
almost won.
In short, plan B was the stick while plan A, which we have heard
little about, was supposed to be the carrot, a very small,
transparent, translucent, genetically engineered carrot we have
not often seen.
1515
What we have been hearing about, since the 1995 referendum,
which was almost won but was unfortunately lost, is plan B. When
history is written, it will be clear that plan B was developed
at the instigation of the current Minister of Intergovernmental
Affairs.
It is interesting to remind the House that, as early as 1992,
this minister, then a professor, gave advice to Premier
Bourassa, saying that “Mr. Bourassa must draw the conclusions
from these endless negotiations that are leading nowhere. He
must come to the defence of Canada such as it is today and tell
Quebecers that constitutional amendments will not happen in the
foreseeable future, even if it means telling Quebecers that an
economic association between an independent Quebec and the rest
of Canada would be equally improbable”.
The current Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, realizing
that Canada would never follow up on what has been called the
traditional demands, or the set of Quebec demands, which were
taken up by Claude Ryan, Bourassa and others, said “Since we
cannot change it, let us be content with it. Let us be happy.
Let us say that we have is good”. But it was not enough because
there had been this referendum with a 49.9% yes vote.
What should he do? He had to find the means to scare these proud
Gallics from Quebec. To scare them, he developed a scheme and
figured it ought to go through the supreme court. He personally
put questions to the supreme court, urging it to render a
decision on Quebec's right to unilaterally secede. Never did the
Quebec plan involve a unilateral declaration of independence or
secession.
In spite of the carefully crafted questions put by the Minister
of Intergovernmental Affairs, in one part of its opinion, the
supreme court said something he did not like: a clear majority
on a clear question would require Canada to negotiate. If I am
digressing here it is because, through the bill, the minister is
getting rid of the only part of the supreme court's opinion that
he did not like, that is, the obligation to negotiate.
What does this famous so-called clarity bill do? First, it says
that a majority of 50% plus one, which has always been
understood in Quebec law as being sufficient to determine if a
referendum has been won, is not enough. But it does not say what
the majority should be. It only says that the government would
consult here and there, and could decide that the majority the
referendum got is not sufficient and not clear enough.
What does the bill say about the question? It talks about what
the question should not include to get the federal government to
negotiate. In fact, it is the federal government, at the
instigation of its Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, that
would choose the topic of the question. However, this is not
included in any way, shape or form in the supreme court's
opinion.
1520
We too sought the opinion of a leading expert, in the person of
Alain Pellet, a professor at Université de Paris-Nanterre, who is
a member and former chair of the UN International Law
Commission. He said the following:
It follows that a clear question on something else than
secession [...] would not be incompatible with current
international law. Neither the supreme court's opinion nor the
draft bill introduced on December 10, 1999, if passed, would
preclude asking such a question.
The government wants to be able to choose the topic of the
question and what the majority should be. And there is more.
This government, whose bill provides for every legislative
assembly in Canada, the Senate and everyone who has an opinion
to be consulted on the question, is ramming this bill through
the House, and not allowing the committee to travel and listen
to Quebecers and Canadians who, for years, have been emotionally
involved in this very important debate on what is called, in
Canada, national unity, and in Quebec, the national issue. It
will not let the committee go and hear them.
So it proposes a bill that gives it extraordinary leeway and
provides that it consult everybody, but there can be no
consultation before passing it.
As a member of the Standing Committee on Human Resources
Development, I toured Canada for two months; we travelled to 22
cities, where we listened to Canadians and Quebecers from 9 a.m.
to 11 p.m., for two or three days at a time, before tabling a
report which was shelved.
The government is acting in an irresponsible, shocking and
provocative manner on a bill that will play a key role in the
future of both Quebecers and Canadians. But I think that, in
acting this way, it also undermines the significance of this
bill. Who will give credit and legitimacy to a bill passed like
this?
The government itself is undermining the position that it wanted
to be so strong, and Quebecers will not be fooled by this bogus
exercise.
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I
found the remarks of my colleague, the member for Mercier, very
interesting. I would like to ask her if the government opposite
is likely to find support within Quebec's civil society.
It is clear that the three parties in the Quebec National Assembly
reject Bill C-20. It is clear that here, in the House of Commons,
more than 60% of members are also against Bill C-20. But what
about the various groups within Quebec's civil society? What is
their reaction to Bill C-20?
Mrs. Francine Lalonde: Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for
Beauharnois—Salaberry for his question. Quebec's civil society,
which the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs arrogantly
referred to as a “mothball group”, cares about democracy in
Quebec.
It is unacceptable and incomprehensible that intelligent people
like the members opposite cannot understand that closing the
door on democracy in Quebec is the same as closing the door on
the people of Quebec and that civil society will always defend
the people of Quebec.
1525
Our colleagues opposite who are from Quebec should have thought
twice. Quebec has always known these two tendencies, one of
which is a growing movement, with various stages, and that
movement will continue. It is a democratic movement that belongs
to the people of Quebec. It is a shame to want to sabotage it,
to override it, to close the door on democracy in Quebec, but
Quebecers will strike back.
Mr. Claude Drouin (Beauce, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like the
member to explain to us how is it that, if this bill is so
undemocratic, the Premier of Quebec, Lucien Bouchard, said that
the opinion of the supreme court was an excellent opinion. Bill
C-20 is based on that opinion and its purpose is to ensure that
Quebecers can clearly decide, with a clear question and a clear
majority, if they want to separate from Canada. The question and
the rules will be decided by the Quebec National Assembly.
I would like the member to explain to us why she says this bill
is undemocratic when Mr. Bouchard said that the opinion on which
it is based was a good one. Is she against the leader of the
separatists?
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I will gladly
answer him.
He did not listen to me. The only thing that the government and
the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs do not like is that
that opinion—yes, we were proud of it—forces the government to
negotiate if the question and the majority are clear.
However, what this bill does is discharge the government from
its obligation to negotiate because the government will decide
what is a clear question and what is a clear majority. It does
not say in the bill what majority means. It is leaving open the
possibility of setting the majority as high as it wants.
Above all, it chooses the subject. It refuses the idea of
negotiation between equal partners. It refuses the concept of
sovereignty partnership which is the way for Quebec.
Quebec's sovereigntists do not want to build a fortress around
Quebec. They want the establishment of a new and modern
relationship with Canada, a type of relationship that our
friends opposite promote for other peoples.
If this is good for other peoples, why can it not be good for
Quebec and Canada?
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
it is with great pleasure that I speak today, beside my
colleague from Laval Centre who has returned to the House today
after a period of convalescence.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Now, on a less happy note, I wish to
condemn the odious approach taken by the government in Bill
C-20, an act to give effect to the requirement for clarity as
set out in the opinion of the Supreme Court of Canada in the
Quebec secession reference.
With this bill, and I am choosing my words carefully here, the
federal government is using the law for purely partisan reasons
and is making a sham of it.
First, I must remind the House that the Supreme Court of Canada
never gave the government the responsibility and the power to
give effect, as it says, to the requirement for clarity, which
the court allegedly set out.
jugement de la cour. J'ai donc traduit.
In light of the opinion of the Supreme Court of Canada, and I
quote “It is up to the political actors to determine what
constitutes a clear majority and a clear question”. Contrary to
what the federal government claims, the court has given no
exclusivity or precedence to any political actor regarding the
definition of what would be a clear majority and a clear
question. Thus, the federal move blatantly exceeds the scope of
the supreme court's opinion.
Besides, concerned by the fact that Quebecers are attracted to
the concept of partnership, the federal government claims that
is has the power to order that an eventual referendum should
deal with only one issue, what Ottawa calls secession, which,
again, would go against the spirit and the letter of the supreme
court's opinion.
Members will recognize that this is not the first time the
federal government violates established constitutional
conventions and its own constitution. We need only think of the
numerous encroachments by the federal government on provincial
jurisdictions.
1530
The choice of terms is not, of course, ever neutral. The court
stipulates in fact as follows:
—conferring a right to initiate constitutional change on each
participant in Confederation. In our view, the existence of this
right imposes a corresponding duty on the participants in
Confederation to engage in constitutional discussions in order
to acknowledge and address democratic expressions of a desire
for change in other provinces.
Thus the future proposals for constitutional changes referred to
by the supreme court would not, contrary to federal claims, be
limited solely to secession.
In its opinion, the supreme court also takes great care in
making it clear that it is speaking of a clear majority in the
qualitative sense of the word. It is therefore wrong to claim,
as the federal government does unreasonably, that 50% plus one
would not, in the eyes of the court, constitute a clear
majority. In democracy, 50% plus one is a majority, and in a
democracy a majority is clear.
In this connection, I would point out that in a 1991 supreme
court decision it was stated that:
This is therefore the court's constant opinion, since it has
also concluded in the past that a system which dilutes one
citizen's vote unduly as compared with another citizen's vote
runs the risk of providing uneven and unfair representation.
We must, therefore, conclude, based on precedents established by
the supreme court itself, that the federal manoeuvre is not only
potentially illegal and unconstitutional, but also basically
undemocratic.
This bill is unacceptable also because the House of Commons
would be deciding the acceptability of the question even before
the debate on that same question in the Quebec National Assembly
is over, and the latter is the legitimate decision-making centre
for the entire process leading up to the decision by the Quebec
people on its own future.
I would like to raise another profoundlu undemocratic element of
the process followed by the government, namely the hearing of
witnesses during study of Bill C-20 by the legislative committee.
If it wants to have a minimum of credibility when claiming that
it intends to preserve the integrity of democratic institutions,
the federal government must adequately consult the people on a
bill that has such an importance for its collective future.
How could the government impose closure on the study of Bill C-20
at second reading? How could it so outrageously limit the number
of witnesses that the legislative committee can hear and decide
that only those who are duly chosen by one or the other of the
five recognized political parties in this House will be heard?
How could it refuse to allow the committee to travel in Quebec
and Canada to meet all those who would like to be heard on an
issue as fundamental as this one? How could it flout normal
parliamentary practice and the most elementary principles of
parliamentary consultation, if not because it knows that its
tactics does not meet with the approval of the Quebec people and
because it wants to proceed quickly enough to prevent any
organized opposition to this infamous bill to organize?
Quebec does not have any democracy lessons to receive from
anyone, especially not from the federal government. Quebec's
democratic institutions are respected and admired all over the
world. Furthermore, the level of democratic ethics in Quebec is
far superior to the one seen on the federal scene and which
sometimes take us back to the dark ages.
This is evidenced by the partisan appointment process used by
the party in office to select returning officers responsible for
the administration of federal elections in each riding, and by
the permissiveness that exists at the federal level regarding
the rules for political party financing.
Some democracy, when it promotes influence peddling and always
allows the affluent to be the strongest voices heard by people's
representatives. When one lives in a glass house, one should not
throw stones.
“Do as I say, not as I do” goes the old saying.
I tell the minister sponsoring Bill C-20, and also government
members, that the question asked by the federal government to
the Montagnais in the Lac Saint-Jean region is not exactly a
model of clarity, a clarity allegedly being sought by the
Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs with his bill.
1535
We are talking here about a rather complex question with two
components, with only one possible answer, and with references
to an agreement and to two sections of an act.
So much for the clarity of the question. How can we presume that
the Montagnais of the Lac Saint-Jean region would automatically
give the same answer to the two questions?
Why does the government demand a single answer to these two
questions? This government, which boasts about having the
monopoly on clarity, is asking a very ambiguous question that
lends itself to very different interpretations by voters. Sure,
the federal government will claim that the 1995 referendum
question was not clear. But another saying provides that when in
doubt, do nothing.
Since the turnout for the referendum on sovereignty-association
on October 30, 1995 was 93%, we conclude without a doubt that
Quebecers understood the question put to them and its issues
very well.
In order to show that the federal government is not a prophet in
its own land, I would add that, for the referendum it is
organizing for the Montagnais of Lac St-Jean, the majority
acceptable will be 50% plus one of the voters.
The former chief returning officer for Quebec, Pierre F. Côté,
said the following when he appeared before the Standing
Committee on Procedure and House Affairs in connection with the
study of the proposed reform of the Canada Elections Act, and I
quote:
For democracy to exist, there must be the appearance of
democracy.
In the matter before us here, the Minister of Intergovernmental
Affairs and the Prime Minister have shown us eloquently that
they are striking another undemocratic blow against Quebec.
The day will soon come when the black clouds of federal
pettiness will disappear from the democratic landscape of
Quebec, the day the government stops mocking Quebec democracy.
We have to recognize the fact. In democracy, all the rules of
the game are set in advance. They are clear and remain
unchanged from start to finish. We intend to ensure this is the
case now and on the day Quebecers democratically create for
themselves a country that reflects their abilities and their
aspirations. And that country is Quebec.
[English]
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is
fairly clear from the words of the hon. member that he is not
supporting the legislation currently in front of the House and
that in the context of this debate he urges more time and more
witnesses for the committee studying the bill.
I am one of those, and I think my constituents are among those
who look back at the last referendum and say that we should look
at the grouping that lost the last referendum. The oui side lost
the last referendum. Was the question clear at that time? I
personally do not think so. It was not a clear question. Did
they lose clearly? Well, apparently not. If the oui had
actually lost the last referendum clearly, it would not be
pursuing the issue now.
The last referendum is a wonderful example of why the supreme
court has said that for something as final as a separation of a
region of this country from Canada we must have a clear majority
and a clear question. When the process is over it has to be
absolutely clear to those who have lost what has happened so
there will not be a repeating process of referenda that will
continue to undermine the entire country ad infinitum.
I would also ask a very short question. If 50% plus one is a
majority, what is a clear majority?
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker,
I get the feeling that the parliamentary secretary to the
government House leader is mixing up all sorts of things.
First of all, we would simply tell him that the best proof that
sovereignists respected the 1995 referendum verdict is that
Quebec is still part of Canada. Since the Government of Quebec
was a sovereigntist government at the time and still is, if it
had not respected the verdict of the people, it would have
subsequently proclaimed Quebec's sovereignty, which it did not
do.
It therefore respected the verdict of the people, even though
the referendum results were very close.
1540
That having been said, if, as the federalists argue, Quebec were
divisible, the very great majority of Quebec's territory would
already have been sovereign since 1995. All regions of Quebec,
with the exception perhaps of three, the Outaouais, West
Montreal and the Beauce, voted very heavily in favour of
sovereignty and yet they are not part of an independent country
called Quebec today. They are still part of Canada.
However, in 1995, the possibility of constitutional amendments
was held out to the people of Quebec and a small majority was
once again misled into voting no.
They voted no, probably hoping that the Prime Minister's empty
promises would result in a renewed federalism. Once again, as
it did 1980, the federal government reneged on these promises.
As a result, since the promises made to Quebecers in 1995 were
not kept, we are fully entitled to again ask ourselves whether
we wish to belong to this country.
I would say to my hon. colleague that the reason I am still
promoting Quebec's sovereignty is because in 1997 Quebecers gave
me and my 43 Bloc Quebecois colleagues a renewed mandate not
only to defend their interests but also to promote Quebec's
sovereignty here in the House of Commons.
That is what I am going to continue to do because it is why my
constituents sent me here.
[English]
Mr. Reg Alcock (Parliamentary Secretary to President of the
Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it gives me no
great pleasure to be here today speaking to this motion. I have
been in the House since 1993. Prior to that I spent five years
in the Manitoba legislature in opposition, so I have some
sympathy for some of the concerns raised by the opposition.
When the member for Winnipeg—Transcona representing the New
Democratic Party raises concerns about the use of time allocation
to get the bill into committee, the use of restricting debate in
an attempt to get the bill dealt with by the government, I have
some sympathy with that. I have a fear at times that we move in
ways that make it difficult for the House to give bills the
consideration they deserve.
When I listen to what I hear coming from the New Democratic
Party, the member in discussion with the minister last night
raised some very legitimate concerns which I think the minister
will think about. He raised some questions which I think we have
to answer. That is what this process is for. That is why we
have this kind of examination. It is to hear testimony, to
listen to expert opinion, and to challenge each other about what
we are trying to create so that we create a better piece of
legislation.
I hear the Reform talk about it and the critic for the Reform
raise concern about a majority of 50% plus one. It is a very
important question. I appreciate his constant pressuring us to
think about it. If we are not clear on how we feel about
important issues as we approach this very important topic, we
will simply do a disservice to everybody that we represent, no
matter who we are in the House.
When I hear from the Progressive Conservative Party I feel a
little saddened to see that once great national party take the
kind of positions that it does and play the kind of divisive game
it has chosen to play on this piece of legislation.
Frankly, I have tried hard to understand the position of its
leader, and I do not. I have considered the arguments very
carefully. I know he will come before committee and I will
undertake to listen to what he has to say.
1545
When Bloc members stand in the House and talk about democracy,
and when they talk about this being an affront to the people of
Quebec because we are not being democratic in the way that we
approach this bill, I reject that absolutely. I think the Bloc
is exactly the wrong party in the House to lecture anybody in
Canada about democracy.
What we are trying to do with this bill—and I thought it was
talked about very eloquently today by the witnesses who came
before the committee—is create a structure around the most
important set of discussions our country could have. We are
trying to put in place not the decision, not the end point, but
the structure within which we have the discussion, something that
is extremely difficult to do, to talk about the breakup of our
country. Do we not owe it to all the people we represent, no
matter where they live in Canada, to put in place a mechanism for
having that discussion that allows us to do it in a peaceful and
sane manner? We should not simply build upon the little nuances
of the argument or inflame the debate for the sake of running up
a motion so maybe we can get a decision. Does it not make sense,
if we are going to approach such a discussion, that we do it in a
way that will not cause more harm to those people to whom we are
responsible? That is what the bill is about.
The bill has three clauses. The only thing one of the clauses
says is “let us be clear”. If we want to talk about breaking
up the country then let us ask the people if they want to break
up the country, yes or no. Let us not play with it. Let us not
run up motions.
For all the talk about democracy over here, it was the leader of
that party who said “Why do we talk about partnership? Because
we know that partnership represents seven to eight percentage
points more support than the population. Therefore, we must
think twice about clarifying the option. So what we will do is
keep the options muddy. We will make sure people do not quite
understand what they are getting in the vain hopes that they will
vote for it”. Is that the way to go into this kind of decision?
Does that produce the kind of environment that allows us to
actually have this discussion? Does that represent honesty?
Does that represent democracy?
I heard a statement which said that the minister was insulting
Quebecers because he thought that the result was not clear and
that was why we needed some clarity in this. The current premier
of Quebec said that they had deliberately made it unclear in
order to gain more support. Those are not my words, those are
the words of the current premier of Quebec, the former leader of
this party. I just do not think that the Bloc has the right to
come in here and lecture anybody else in the House about
democracy.
On the question of the percentage, I am thinking specifically of
some of the questions that the member from the Reform Party
raised. We all have this kind of instinctive sense that 50 plus
one makes sense. It gives us one of those comfortable kinds of
feelings. However, when we think about this, when we get away
from the theatre of this place and away from the charged up
atmosphere we get in here under the cameras and all the fighting
and debating, which is all very exciting, we must come down to
the point where we actually sit down and talk about taking apart
the country. Do we not want to be certain that is the will of
the people and not a momentary passion?
1550
I think Professor Lebel was very helpful today. He certainly
was very helpful to me as he walked through some of that trying
to clarify it and trying to make debate real, not in terms of the
debate that happens here but the debate that would happen if we
were to ever reach that point around a series of tables with the
entire population looking on. He said that before we go there,
do we not want to be absolutely certain that is where we want to
be. We have to be clear but we also have to be sure, and 50%
plus one is just too narrow.
My friend, the parliamentary secretary to House leader, asked
the obvious question. At the time that the supreme court
released its decision, I was here and I went through it very
carefully. I heard the Bloc saying that it was great and that it
was a good decision by the supreme court. The supreme court said
that there has to be a clear majority. If 50% plus one is not a
clear majority, my friend asked, then what is an unclear
majority? The supreme court clearly differentiated between one
kind of a majority and another kind of majority. There is not a
lot of room between 50% plus one and 50%.
There is another thing that causes me great conflict. I am from
the west and I have not lived this issue the way some have. As a
Canadian I have, because it has been a recurring theme throughout
my adult life, but I have not lived it, in fairness to the
members from Quebec, the way a Quebecer has.
When I came here in 1993, one of the first things I did was to
meet up with the hon. member for Québec East in the gym. He
taught at the University of Manitoba. He is a member of the Bloc
and was the agriculture critic. I had been here for about a week
when I met him and I said to him “Help me to understand this.
Tell me what is going on”. He recommended a book, which I read.
The hon. member for Mercier actually wrote a book and I got her
book because I wanted to understand why, when Canada is such an
incredible country, that someone would want to smash it apart.
I travel every summer and every chance I get I am in Quebec. I
work with members of the Bloc on policy committees, on human
resources and on foreign affairs and it is terrific. Those
members make valuable contributions. When we talk about
virtually every policy that we deal with, I find I often feel a
lot more simpatico with members of the Bloc than, dare I say,
with some of my companions from the west in the Reform Party,
until we come to this question of breaking up the country. I do
not see what we would gain or what the people we represent would
gain by doing that. I certainly do not see what any of us would
gain if we do it in an atmosphere of confusion.
Mr. Dennis Gruending (Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, NDP):
Mr. Speaker, I listened closely to the comments of the hon.
member for Winnipeg South. I want to say that the New Democratic
Party supports Bill C-20, the referendum bill, in principle. I
believe people in my riding want us to support the bill if the
Liberal government will improve it somewhat. It is very
important that the Parliament of Canada has something to say in
the event that a province decides to secede.
My question for the hon. member revolves around the committee
and its hearings which are supposed to elucidate the whole debate
around how the bill might be improved.
I believe the hon. member and some of his colleagues not that
long ago toured western Canada to decide how the Liberal
government might best improve its fortunes there, although I
think that is unlikely. In that case it was important to travel.
However, we are now hearing that it is completely adequate to
simply have television. In other words, people can watch but
they cannot participate before the committee. Justifications were
given for that today but I do not agree with them.
Given the member's experience travelling in western Canada with
the Liberal committee, does he believe that this committee should
travel?
Mr. Reg Alcock: Mr. Speaker, no, I do not. I have been
in opposition in the prairie legislature and I have been here
since 1993. I have travelled extensively on some committees and
not on others. The hon. member is new in this place. He needs
to spend a little time watching how this place operates.
The reality is that we will consult broadly. The minister has
been consulting very broadly. What we have said is that we will
not bring forward all the witnesses.
What we are saying to the New Democratic Party and every party in
the House is that they can bring any witnesses they want before
the committee and we will listen to all their opinions. We are
not closing the door on that.
1555
What we have is a party over there that has said, from the day
the bill came in, that the debate does not matter. It does not
matter how sincere the member from Winnipeg—Birds Hill is when
he comes forward and raises his standard concern with us. It
does not matter what is talked about because the Bloc members
want to kill it. This is theatre. It is not work. We want to
work and I know the member from Birds Hill wants to work.
[Translation]
Mr. René Laurin (Joliette, BQ): Mr. Speaker, if I understand
what my colleague is saying, he would like Quebecers to be asked
a question based on his perception of what we want to do,
whereas we want to ask a question based on the perception
Quebecers have of what we want to do.
He would like a question based on a negative perception, whereas
we want a question based on a positive perception. We want
Quebec to be built, we want Canada to be built. We do not want
Canada to fall apart, we do not want Quebec to fall apart. This
is what is happening while we are living together.
We want a positive position, this is the way we want the
question to be asked. We have been explaining it to Quebecers
for 30 years now and I believe they understand.
[English]
Mr. Reg Alcock: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry, but the member's
answer lies in the words of his former leader. If he wants that
kind of honesty and open discussion, then why does he say that we
framed the question this way because we know that more of the
population will vote for it than if we framed it another way.
If at the end of the day the question is the separation of the
country, what is the problem with clarity? What is the problem
with saying “that is what we want”. If that is what he wants
then he does not need to be playing games with the question. The
intention of the question, in the words of his own former leader,
was to confuse.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, the hon. member referred to clarity. In reality,
when one looks at the bill there is very little that is clear. It
is very confusing for Canadians. It is so confusing that last
night in committee his minister did not know that the
territories, in terms of their having a say, were included in
this. The political actors are not clear. The input from
aboriginal peoples is not clear. The boundary disputes that
could erupt are not clear.
I ask the hon. member to comment on that and give us a direct
comment, not the vitriol and the bombast about that party over
there siding with the separatists. We are a federalist party.
We have always been a plan A party. We have worked very hard,
much to the dismay of the hon. member, Mr. McKenna and others,
including the Prime Minister who torpedoed attempts to bring
Quebec into the federation and try to improve the way the
federation worked.
The bill is not about clarity, it is about political advantage.
It is about bolstering the Bloc and the Reform Party. What does
the hon. member have to say about the real intention of the bill?
Mr. Reg Alcock: Mr. Speaker, the irony of this party
lecturing anybody on clarity on this particular issue is not lost
on anybody in the House. “Exactly what is the policy on that? I
am not quite sure what it is”. It depends, of course, on which
member we ask and on which day of the week.
Let me quote the former leader of that party, who is now the
leader of the opposition in Quebec, who said: “the Quebec
government's strategy has less to do with having the national
assembly speak with one voice than with reviving the sovereignty
thrust of the party in power”, which is trying to manufacture a
crisis so that it can call a referendum. That is what that party
is supporting.
[Translation]
Ms. Raymonde Folco (Laval West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if I may, I
would like to make a few brief comments on the motion before us.
I will then deal with the substance of the bill and its intent.
The Bloc members believe the bill is useless and even bad for
democracy in Quebec. I believe on the contrary that it is
consistent with the democratic tradition both in Quebec and
Canada.
1600
In his motion, the Bloc leader thinks, as he said himself, that
it is imperative for the legislative committee on Bill C-20 to
hold hearings in all regions of Quebec and Canada so as to hear
as many witnesses having an interest in the bill as possible. He
also demands that the hearings be broadcast and that the
committee be given sufficient resources to hold such hearings,
all in accordance with the rules and practices of the House.
I am sceptical as to the real meaning of this motion, which is
obviously a veiled attempt at partisan politics.
The list of witnesses that have already been invited to appear
before the committee shows that they are Canadians from all
walks of life who want to express their views on a bill aimed at
ensuring a clear and straightforward referendum process.
What is the real reason the Bloc Quebecois is asking for such
measures? I know the only reason is to try to win the support of
Quebecers and other Canadians. The Bloc Quebecois wants to delay
the process as much as it can, hoping the public will strongly
oppose the bill. From the very beginning, the Bloc laid its
cards on the table and showed that it intended to delay the
adoption of the bill as long as possible. That is the real
purpose of this motion. In these circumstances, one can easily
understand that our government cannot support such a motion.
Now, let us look at the bill itself and its purpose. The purpose
of the bill that was introduced is, and I quote, “to give effect
to the requirement for clarity set out in the opinion of the
Supreme Court of Canada in the Quebec Secession Reference”. And
if there is word on which the court insists, it is certainly the
word clarity.
Clarity is the basis of any democratic process. People must be
able to understand the impact and the consequences of their
action when they express their will. As for governments, they
must be sure of the mandate given to them. Therefore, it is
important that the issues at stake in a referendum be clear to
everyone.
As the court reminded us, it is the role of political actors to
ensure this requirement for clarity is met.
We are being criticized for allegedly interfering in the
referendum process of the PQ government.
On this side of the House, we far prefer no referendum be held
since this sort of debate simply sets people against one
another.
However, the PQ government keeps repeating, through Premier
Bouchard and the minister of Canadian intergovernmental affairs,
Joseph Facal, that such a referendum will be held during the
present term. Mr. Facal, my colleague in Laval, was very clear
in his remarks, and I quote:
In my mind, there is positively no doubt. I work every day and
with every ounce of energy to have the winning referendum on
sovereignty held in this term.
Accordingly, if a referendum on sovereignty were to be held, we
think the question to be asked must be clear and that Canada
cannot be broken up without a clear majority of the people of a
province choosing secession, expressing clearly its desire for
the province to cease being a part of Canada. This is
self-evident.
I would like to spend a little time on the need for a clear
question. If the justices of the supreme court insisted on this
so much, they had a reason for doing so. They understood that
the break-up of a democratic country is a matter of the utmost
gravity, as the bill states, that a country must not be broken
up in confusion. The vote must faithfully reflect the will of
the voters to have their province cease to be a part of Canada.
1605
I would like to read the following question:
The Government of Québec has made public its proposal to
negotiate a new agreement with the rest of Canada, based on the
equality of nations; this agreement would enable Québec to
acquire the exclusive power to make its laws, levy its taxes and
establish relations abroad—in other words, sovereignty—and at the
same time, to maintain with Canada an economic association
including a common currency; no change in political status
resulting from these negotiations will be effected without
approval by the people through another referendum; on these
terms,—
And here comes the question, at last.
All of my colleagues will recognize that as the 1980 referendum
question. I do not believe that everyone will acknowledge that
it was very clear.
As for the 1995 question, it read as follows:
Do you agree that Québec should become sovereign, after having
made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political
partnership, within the scope of the bill respecting the future
of Québec and of the agreement signed on June 12, 1995?
That one was the question with the partnership project, which
Mr. Bouchard was later to describe as a skeleton.
As in 1980, the 1995 question was not clear, and there is one
very convincing way to prove it.
A poll carried out just before the October 30, 1995 referendum
indicated that 80% of Quebecers proposing to vote yes believed
that, if the yes side were to win, Quebec would continue to use
the Canadian dollar; close to 80% believed that economic ties
with Canada would remain unchanged; 50% believed that they would
continue to use Canada passports; and 25% believed that Quebec
would continue to elect members of the Canadian Parliament.
Moreover, another poll informed us that nearly one backer of the
yes in five believed that a sovereign Quebec could remain a
province of Canada.
So much for the truth on the so-called clarity of the 1995
question.
Let me remind those who might still not be convinced of the
ambiguity of that referendum process of a statement made by
Jacques Parizeau in an open letter published last year in the
daily Le Devoir. Mr. Parizeau wrote:
We have often been told that the 1995 question was not clear. It
is true, as I often pointed out, that the question I would have
wanted to ask was: Do you want Quebec to become a sovereign (or
independent) country as of—?
One wonders why Mr. Parizeau did not want to be so direct when he
was Premier of Quebec and leader of the yes side. But this is
not an issue I want to discuss today.
However, Mr. Parizeau's successor provided us with an interesting
element of answer. On October 19, Lucien Bouchard suggested that
the notion of partnership was supported by 7% or 8% more people
and that, therefore, one should think twice before taking a more
radical stance. They are not being honest and direct when they
play with words like that in order to get Quebecers to agree to
achieve independence, which they have not agreed to twice
already.
Our government has a duty not to undertake any negotiations that
might lead to the separation of a province, unless the voters of
that province clearly and democratically state that they want
their province to secede from Canada.
The separatists usually refute our objections regarding the lack
of clarity of the referendum questions by saying that we think
Quebecers are unable to understand what is at stake.
This is a rather dramatic display of cynicism and contempt. Let
me simply say, in response to that groundless accusation, that
it is because we respect Quebecers and the citizens of all the
provinces that we want to ensure that any referendum question
put to them is clear and void of any ambiguity.
Mr. Speaker, for all these reasons, I am opposed to the motion
tabled by the Bloc Quebecois leader.
1610
Mr. René Canuel (Matapédia—Matane, BQ): Mr. Speaker, when my
colleague talks about the referendum question and about
Mr. Parizeau, she is insulting me and she is insulting the people
of Quebec. If somebody has ever been clear in his life, it is
Mr. Parizeau. And I pay tribute to him.
Getting back to the 1980 question, Mr. Trudeau, then Prime
Minister of Canada, had told Mr. Chrétien a week earlier “If we
win the referendum, it is fine. If we loose, I will ask all the
ministers from Quebec to resign”. That is what Trudeau said one
week before the referendum. This means that, for him, the
question was very clear.
Now they want to subdue Quebec. Once again, they want to quash
us. My colleague talks about clarity; I want to ask her a
question and I hope that she can answer very clearly.
Will she recognize a result of 50% plus one? Because this is
how it works in a democracy. If she is not prepared to recognize
50% plus one, what would be the required percentage then?
Ms. Raymonde Folco: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to reply to
the comments made by the hon. member for Matapédia—Matane.
First of all, I will answer a question that he did not ask, but
that is still a question for me. He said he was insulted by the
comments I made about Mr. Parizeau. In reply to that, I say that
I was only quoting the exact words the former Quebec Premier had
used, as reported in Le Devoir.
If the hon. member is so insulted by what the former Prime
Minister of
Canada, I would ask him this: Why did the Parti Quebecois ask
for Mr. Parizeau's resignation immediately following the
referendum? Because Mr. Parizeau had insulted Quebecers.
[English]
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Tobique—Mactaquac, PC): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to ask the member opposite a question. Let
us say, for the sake of it, that Quebec holds another referendum
with a clear question, and with a clear majority Quebec wins.
Then we would have to go through secession.
Who would negotiate for Canada? Before the members stands, I
want to remind her of something. The Prime Minister, at least 10
of his cabinet ministers and all of the MPs who come from Quebec,
under the Geneva Convention, the United Nations and international
law are not bound by law to negotiate for Canada.
Who would negotiate for Canada then?
[Translation]
Ms. Raymonde Folco: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to answer that
question. First of all, I apologize for answering in French, but
it is my mother tongue. I can express myself much better in
French.
Mr. Pierre de Savoye: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
Since when do we have to apologize for speaking French in this
House? How totally colonized.
The Deputy Speaker: That is not a point of order. The hon.
member may say what she wants.
Ms. Raymonde Folco: Mr. Speaker, I am going to answer the
question. It is because I respect both official languages, and
my hon. colleague spoke to me in the other official language,
and I feel I have a responsibility, in order to respect both
languages, to answer him in his language. Sadly, I do not speak
that language well enough.
That being said, let us come back to the question. My hon.
colleague asked the question “If Quebec wins”. For my part, I
say that, in 1995, when Quebecers said that they wanted to stay
within the Canadian Confederation, Quebec won. That is what
happens when Quebec wins.
Now, I would like to answer the first question of my hon.
colleague on figures. I would like to mention Quebec's caisses
populaires.
1615
Nothing is more important for Quebecers, men and women, than the
caisses populaires. It is a success story for Quebec. The
caisses populaires, which are now merging need, in order to
merge, not 50% plus one, but 65% and more.
Mr. René Laurin: Who will negotiate?
Ms. Raymonde Folco: This is further evidence of the fact that
even among Quebecers, in all activities, 50% plus one is
unacceptable.
Mr. Rahim Jaffer (Edmonton—Strathcona, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I wish
to split my time with my colleague for South Surrey—White
Rock—Langley.
First, I would like to read the motion proposed today by the
Bloc Quebecois. This motion says—
The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. We can hardly hear the hon.
member who has the floor. I hope that all the members will
remain quiet during the speech by the hon. member for
Edmonton-Strathcona, to whom I am giving the floor once again.
Mr. Rahim Jaffer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
This motion says:
That this House instruct the Legislative Committee on Bill C-20,
an Act to give effect to the requirement for clarity as set out
in the opinion of the Supreme Court of Canada in the Quebec
secession Reference, to hold public hearings in all regions of
Quebec and Canada so as to hear as many witnesses having an
interest in the Bill as possible, that the hearings be broadcast
and that the Committee be given sufficient resources to hold
such hearings, all in accordance with the rules and practices of
the House.
Contrary to Bill C-20, the motion proposed by the Bloc today is
very clear.
[English]
I would like to talk about some of the comments we heard earlier
from the hon. parliamentary secretary to the minister. He spoke
quite eloquently and quite passionately about his concern about
what the law addressed when it came to pulling the country apart.
He felt that his party was standing in the House defending
democracy, while the Bloc on the other hand was not, and in the
process of dealing with this law was adding clarity to something
he felt was very important.
However on reading this motion it seems that the Bloc is very
concerned about pushing ahead with the idea of democracy in the
House and extending it to a very important part of the committee
procedure of the House of Commons.
One of the fears many of us have had in dealing with this
important legislation, as my hon. colleague mentioned, is that we
are not giving enough time to deal with an issue that affects all
of us in Canada, no matter what the result would be of a
potential referendum to secede from the country.
Dealing with the issue does not only apply to one region. My
colleagues in the Bloc have said that as well. If the law sets a
precedent we know that in the future there could be other regions
of the country that may well go through the same process of
referendums to secede from the country. I hope not, but in the
event that it happens we need to hear from Canadians across the
country about what they might feel should be added to the law or
what they might feel is missing from the law.
How can we get as many Canadians as possible involved in this
issue which, as my colleague mentioned, is one of the most
important issues that we face in the country? In speaking
passionately about the hon. member's feelings for democracy and
about democracy in this place, I was very shocked to hear him
disagree with the motion and say that the committee should not be
allowed to travel.
I sat on the committee with two of my colleagues in the official
opposition. So far we have unfortunately seen a very
disorganized committee. We have seen the committee propose to
hear from 45 witnesses in the span of a week. Because of the
time allowed to notify the witnesses to come to Ottawa, some of
them will not have a chance to make it.
How is that participation in democracy? How is that including
Canadians from across the country?
1620
If the hon. member were serious about his comments on democracy
and serious about his love for this country, he would not be
scared to have Canadians from coast to coast join in debating a
particular law as I aforementioned that is of paramount
importance to almost all Canadians. This is the irony of the
government.
We heard from the parliamentary secretary his belief in
democracy and his commitment to democracy. We have seen in the
House the most time allocation motions put forward by any
government in our history. We have had restrictions on debate.
We have had restrictions on trying to allow democracy to unfold
in the country. The government is at the root of the problem.
The parliamentary secretary flatly rejects the idea of putting
forward a simple motion on an issue that is so important to
Canadians, that of giving the committee the ability to travel and
hear from Canadians across the country. Where is his commitment
to democracy?
As members know, the root of the motion today comes from Bill
C-20 which is supposed to add clarity to the idea of a question
being formed on the issue of a referendum but also clarity
surrounding majority as it pertains to a referendum. When I talk
to my colleagues across the country I know many of them feel they
would like to see some issues addressed in the bill that have not
been addressed thus far.
We have continuously raised one of these issues. My colleague,
the parliamentary secretary, correctly pointed out that the
official opposition wants to know what will constitute a clear
majority in the bill. We have proposed our solution. We have
discussed the idea of 50 plus one, a standard in democracy that
is accepted around the world in other modern democracies. We
know there are some concerns in that regard.
We would like the government to make clear where it plans to go
on the important question of what it will respect in the event of
a referendum vote. Will it change the bar halfway through the
game? Will it alienate various Canadians in the process of
making a decision on whether they want to stay in this country?
These are important questions to which we still have no answers.
There is not the clarity we would like to see in this bill.
As my hon. colleague from Macleod has said, we support the bill
in principle. The Reform Party has been calling for clarity
surrounding this issue far longer than the government. We would
like to see these things outlined clearly. We hope the committee
process will be able to deal with some amendments to the bill.
An hon. member: What committee?
Mr. Rahim Jaffer: Exactly. As my colleague from the
Bloc has just said, what committee?
We will rush through this procedure. There has not been a time
restriction put on the committee as yet, but half the 45
witnesses scheduled have not appeared. I am hoping the rest will
be given the time allowed to come here. How are we to deal with
the issue seriously? How are we to include the amendments to the
bill required to make it satisfactory to the rest of Canadians?
I stress once again that if the committee were allowed to travel
as the Bloc is proposing, if it were allowed to go to different
parts of the country, we would get a different view from
Canadians of what they would like to see the government show in
the area of leadership when it comes to national unity.
I know the government is afraid to start discussing these
options because it has shown no leadership when it comes to
vision, when it comes to how to make the country work better. We
in the official opposition have talked about it quite clearly. We
have put forward what we feel Canada should do in order to make
it work better. Our proposals have been outlined in the new
Canada Act. We are not afraid to talk about this and put forward
positive solutions to make this federation work better.
It seems to me that the government is satisfied with status quo
federalism which most Canadians have rejected time and time
again. Canadians want more from their government. They want
leadership. They want to see their country put aside alienation
and differences and build on the strengths of diversity, the
strengths the official opposition has outlined in the new Canada
Act on how we can make our federation work better.
1625
Travelling across the country as I try to do I hear from
Canadians. I hear they would like to see more leadership from
the government. That leadership could start with democracy in
this place and democracy at the committee level.
From the motion put forward by the Bloc today, I hope the
government will take seriously the idea of democracy in the
committee, the idea of Canadians from across the country taking
part in such an important issue, and give the opportunity for the
committee to do its work in a pertinent fashion.
I will leave those comments with the government. If as the
parliamentary secretary said it is committed to democracy, I hope
it will consider them. We on the opposition side support the
effort to try to make the work of the committee more democratic.
Mr. Reg Alcock (Parliamentary Secretary to President of the
Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank the
member for his comments. Let us see what we can do. The purpose
of this place is to debate ideas. The purpose of this process is
to try to come to a common understanding of how we might build
better legislation.
The member raised the question that his party raised. Is 50
plus one a sufficient majority on which to make this decision?
Three witnesses came before committee this morning, not the
minister but constitutional experts from universities in Quebec,
who argued very eloquently on that question. The member was
there and listened to the arguments put forward on why 50 plus
one was not enough. Is the member able to hear that, or does he
feel he must support the first position put forward by his party?
Mr. Rahim Jaffer: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member
for his question. As he has correctly identified, we have only
heard from three witnesses on this committee. We have not had
the chance to hear any opposing views. For all that we could put
on the record, maybe those witnesses were from the government
side.
If we had the chance to invoke democracy as I talked about in
this place and have the committee travel to different parts of
the country, maybe then the hon. member would hear a different
story from Canadians. The fact of the matter is that many
Canadians across the country actually endorse the position of the
official opposition and the idea of 50 plus one.
I encourage the member to open his eyes and encourage democracy
to work and Canadians to speak out. Maybe he will hear the same
message.
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, I am happy to speak in English in the House. I do not
need to excuse myself. As a sovereignist it is useful to speak English
for people who want a partnership with Canada. I truly
believe that will happen in the near future when Quebecers choose
to opt for sovereignty.
My question to my colleague is to some extent a question I
wanted to put to the parliamentary secretary. We understand now
that there are supposed to be 45 witnesses. That is the quota
that was given to our party. This is unprecedented in the
history of parliamentary democracy in the House of Commons.
Apparently only 23 witnesses have accepted. The debate is
supposed to last until next Tuesday. Does my hon. colleague from
Edmonton—Strathcona believe the work of the committee should be
prolonged to hear at least those 45 witnesses and time should be
allocated to hear more people? Does he believe that the Liberal
Party and the government want something like this to happen and
want us to hear more witnesses?
Mr. Rahim Jaffer: Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague
from the Bloc for his question. To answer it very quickly, I do
not believe the government is committed to hearing more witnesses
or allowing this process to go forward. It is trying to rush it
through. It is trying to rush the amount of witnesses through
the committee.
Even though the ceiling as the hon. member has correctly
mentioned is 45 witnesses, we do not even know if we will get
through those witnesses or if we will be able to replace those
who, as I mentioned earlier, were not given proper notice in time
to be able to come here.
1630
I would love to have some of the other provincial
representatives give their thoughts or give Canadians from
different organizations across the country the chance to be heard
on this legislation. For many of them it is tough to come to
Ottawa on such short notice. That is why we should expand the
ability of the committee to do better work and more work and to
allow it to travel to hear from Canadians across the country.
It is a simple request. If the hon. parliamentary secretary
were serious about his demands for democracy and commitment to
the country, perhaps he would not find it so difficult to expand
that view of the committee.
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Tobique—Mactaquac, PC): Mr.
Speaker, my question for the member from the Reform Party will be
brief.
As I just heard, the member is not happy with the way the
committee work is going on the clarity bill. He also stated that
he is not happy with any majority higher than 50% plus one. I
guess he believes in a majority of 50% plus one. If that means
that the hon. member has problems with half of the bill, why is
he supporting the bill?
Mr. Rahim Jaffer: Mr. Speaker, I made it clear during my
speech that in principle we are supporting the bill. We are
hoping that with responsible motions such as this Bloc motion the
government will listen and actually put some democratic
principles into the committee so that we can improve the
legislation. We are hoping that it will happen.
For now I have made it clear and the opposition has made it
clear that 50% plus one is a standard of democracy that we are
willing to respect. Let us challenge that and see what happens
in the committee.
Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, perhaps the parliamentary secretary who
is in charge of the process on the clarity bill has heard the
comment and realizes the difficult position the government has
put its allies in. Here we are trying to support the government
in principle because we feel that clarity on this issue is
required, yet the Liberal members carry on in committee in a
fashion I have not seen in the seven years I have been in the
House.
I have sat on six different committees and I have never seen the
type of railroading that I saw when we tried to establish the
principles upon which the committee would operate. The official
opposition proposed a motion requesting travel. Knowing the
importance of the issue and the inability of Canadians to take
part in that discussion other than through the committee process,
we thought it was important that the committee that has been
established to look at Bill C-20 travel across the country to all
regions to allow Canadians to participate in this most important
debate.
For the people who are watching these proceedings, the Liberal
members of the committee defeated that motion. They felt that
they did not want to travel to bring this issue before Canadians.
I am not sure what the Liberal members are concerned about. I
am not sure what they are afraid of.
I think they owe it to Canadians to open this discussion because
it concerns each and every one of us. For those who think this is
only an issue between one province and the federal government,
they are mistaken. This issue concerns every single Canadian.
The government has put the official opposition and others who
want to support it in a very difficult position by treating the
committee with such disrespect.
I get the feeling that the government is reacting. We
questioned the timing of Bill C-20. It appears to me even more so
after the committee hearing that the government is knee-jerk
reacting to a situation and for its own agenda it chose to pick
this point in time to throw the bill on the table, limit
discussion and hope it quickly gets through and no one will even
notice it. It is very similar to the knee-jerk reaction the
government had after the 1995 referendum.
1635
Does anyone in the House remember the government's Motion No.
26? No, because it zipped through here so quickly. It is the
one that recognized distinct society. How about Bill C-110?
Does anyone here remember that bill? No, because it zipped
through the House so quickly. It is the one that gave regional
areas in the country a veto. Did Canadians get a chance to
debate, to discuss, to give any attention to those issue?
Absolutely not. There was not even a committee formed to discuss
those very important issues.
Here we are one more time. The government is throwing in a bill
at an inappropriate time to talk about an issue that it does not
want to talk about with anybody other than a handful of its own
people who agree with it. Canadians deserve more than that.
Canadians deserve something that is much better and something
that is much more democratic.
We agree with the principle and the concept of the bill. As has
been said by my hon. colleagues, the official opposition brought
up the issue of clarity five years ago, the need to be clear
about what it means to Canada to have one of its provinces
secede. We brought up the issue that there has to be clarity on
what numbers are required. Whether it is 50% plus one, 65% or
75%, we have to be very clear about what the measurement is. Does
the bill do it? Not really. It does not outline what a clear
question is going to be and it certainly does not clearly outline
what number is required.
Government members seem to take exception when we argue that 50%
plus one is the accepted line. There have been two referendums
on the separation of Quebec and on both occasions it was 50% plus
one.
I remind the government that if the Liberals have a problem with
50% plus one, they should ask the person who wrote the
Constitution Act, 1982, the repatriation of the BNA act, an
individual who happens to have sat on that side of the House, why
the number was not changed when there was an opportunity to do
so. If 50% plus one is not acceptable, why did they not change
it when they had the opportunity to do so? Why did they not
state the number that would be required? The constitution is
silent on this issue. There is no mention of any other number.
The accepted majority around the world is 50% plus one. If the
government does not like that, then it should have taken the
opportunity to change it when it had the chance in 1982.
I want to go back to the issue of travelling and communicating
with Canadians. I had the opportunity to participate in the
British Columbia unity debate and the British Columbia unity
panel. The Government of British Columbia took it upon itself
when we were dealing with the Calgary declaration, the question
of unity and of trying to keep the country together, to
communicate with the people of its province. It did not worry
about time. It did not worry about costs. It worried about
communicating with the people so that the people understood what
the issues were and they had a chance to give their opinion.
I took part in that and travelled to every corner of British
Columbia. I listened to the people of British Columbia, not the
politicians and the business community but a collection of all of
those people. It gave me a much greater understanding of what
being a Canadian means to each and every one of us and how
important that issue is to Canadians.
We do a great disservice when we eliminate Canadians from the
process that is happening today. We do not gain anything by
excluding Canadians from the dialogue that is taking place. I
understand even the people who are most interested in it cannot
gather themselves quickly enough to appear before the committee.
It is understandable when they are given one day, 24 hours
notice.
1640
This is not the kind of subject matter on which somebody can get
a phone call the night before to appear before a committee the
next morning. How do we expect the Canadian public to participate
in this process if the people who are most interested in it
cannot be prepared to speak?
I think the government has a hidden agenda and I am not sure
what it is. I am not sure why the Liberals are afraid to talk to
Canadians on this issue. If they really want support and do not
want to face another 1995 situation where they are on one side
and everybody else is on the other, if they lose the opportunity
to have this communication with Canadians and understand what
Canadians are feeling, then they are not going to be ready when
the time comes.
The government owes it to Canadians to open up the committee
process to travel and hear what Canadians have to say and how
they feel. The government owes it to Canadians to give it the
time that is required. I am not sure why the Liberals think it
has to be finished in seven days. They sat on it for two months.
This bill was introduced two months ago and a good deal of
travel could have been done in that period of time. I do not know
why they think they have only seven days to get it through the
House. The government has used time allocation to limit debate
in the House and now the committee is being shut down.
Limitations are being put on the committee. I have been on six
different committees and I have never seen this kind of abuse of
democracy and parliamentary process in my life.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): It is my duty, pursuant to
Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be
raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the
hon. member for Davenport, Fisheries; the hon. member for
Dewdney—Alouette, Taxation.
[English]
Mr. Dennis J. Mills (Broadview—Greenwood, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I had not intended to react or comment on today's debate
but I have been hearing so much rubbish I want to be on the
record.
Canadians should be told the reality which is that we have been
debating this issue for 40 years. In the years I have been here
we have been doing nothing but accommodating the separatists. We
have bent over backward and for the life of me I cannot figure
out why the Reform Party wants to continue this debate. Canadians
are fed up with this debate. This debate with the separatists
has cost this country billions of dollars. It has affected our
exchange. It has affected investment.
An hon. member: This is a democracy.
An hon. member: You do not know what that word means.
Mr. Dennis J. Mills: Mr. Speaker, this is a democracy and
I am not finished. No one interrupted the separatists all
afternoon but when I get up to remind Canadians that we have been
debating this, we have had two referendums, the Reform Party will
not let me speak. This is not fair.
Does the member not think debating this issue for 40 years is a
long enough debate? It is time to bury it, put it to bed and get
on with building Canada.
Ms. Val Meredith: Mr. Speaker, the only amazing thing I
have heard from the member across the way is that if he thinks
the debate that has been going on for 40 years is going to end,
then I do not know what he is smoking. The bill does not clarify
anything. If the member has been debating it for 40 years, then
why can he or the government not come up with the number that is
required to pass this legislation? After 40 years what is the
magic number? What is the number?
1645
Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I could not hear a word that the member for Broadview—Greenwood
was saying. I would urge you to give him additional time. Even
with the microphones I could not hear what he was saying.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I appreciate the
intervention by the hon. member for Peterborough, but I assure
the hon. member for Broadview—Greenwood that I could hear every
single word that was said. I could also hear every bit of
emotion that went into it.
This is a house for debate. Sometimes it gets a little rough,
but provided it is within the rules there is no problem.
Mr. Dennis J. Mills: Mr. Speaker, I have every bit as
much right to speak in the House as members of the Bloc
Quebecois. In the six years I have been here listening to
them—and I have been here 12 years—I have never interrupted a
Bloc Quebecois speaker. I feel that they are impinging upon my
opportunity to make my remarks.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): With respect to the
hon. member for Broadview—Greenwood, that is certainly a
question of debate.
The member for South Surrey—White Rock—Langley has been called
away but I will recognize the hon. member for
Tobique—Mactaquac on a question or comment.
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Tobique—Mactaquac, PC): Mr.
Speaker, it is not that I want to criticize, but Reform members
have spoken all day. They say that they do not agree with a
majority higher than 50% plus one. The member who spoke a while
ago said that there is no clarity about this question. They said
that they were not satisfied with the amount of work that has
gone on in committee. There is nothing in this bill that they
are satisfied with.
Why is the Reform Party supporting a bill that it does not like?
It is as simple as that. It is not a matter of principle; it is
a matter of values.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The member for
Tobique—Mactaquac got the last word in that exchange. Resuming
debate, the hon. member for Wentworth—Burlington.
Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to see that there are so many Bloquistes
and Reformists in the Commons. I am going to give a very good
reason why the Reform Party should reject this motion and I hope
to give a very good reason—
Mr. Howard Hilstrom: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. The present member speaking from the government side and
the previous member from the Progressive Conservatives have
referred to the number of individuals in the House of Commons. I
do not believe that is in keeping with the rules.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The member for
Wentworth—Burlington referred to the general House, which is
done often, without referring to a specific member. The member
for Tobique—Mactaquac, at the Chair's invitation, because the
member was called away, had the floor to express his comments.
Both were in order.
Mr. John Bryden: Mr. Speaker, in fact I congratulated
both parties, the Reform and the Bloc Quebecois, on having so
many members in the House.
I do not think that anyone in the House can be a more committed
federalist than I am. I very much appreciate the contribution
that Bloc Quebecois members have made in the Chamber over the
years that I have known them. Nevertheless, I am very much a
federalist.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to take you back to 1995 and the
so-called referendum crisis, from our side, and what occurred at
that time leading up to that question, to the actual referendum.
We in the backbenches of the Liberal Party were assured that it
looked as though it would be an easy win for the no side, which
was the federalist side. What happened was, it was a very
narrow, close race. Members will remember that there was a
margin of only 50,000 votes on the no side that rejected the
proposed question put by the Parti Quebecois.
1650
In the aftermath—and I tell this to my Bloc colleagues—in the
Liberal caucus of which I was a part, we were in shock. We were
absolutely devastated because it appeared that we had nearly lost
our side. No matter what the Bloc says, it was a terribly
emotional experience to feel that we may have lost our country
based on what turned out to be a terribly ambiguous question,
from my point of view. It turned out to be a very narrow margin.
Indeed, being 50% plus one, we could have lost the entire
country.
I remind members, just in passing, of the actual text of that
question. That question which we agonized over read: “Do you
agree that Quebec should become sovereign after having made a
formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political
partnership within the scope of the bill respecting the future of
Quebec and of the agreement signed on June 12, 1995?”
We were appalled that our government could have taken us that
close to the abyss without ensuring that a clearer question, a
real question, had been on the table. In caucus government
members constantly talked about how narrow an experience it had
been for Canada and how Canada would have had to negotiate and if
we had lost by a margin of 60,000 votes Canada would have had to
negotiate the separation of Quebec.
I got up in my national caucus and I said in front of the Prime
Minister “Do not talk about Canada having to negotiate on a
question like this”, if we had lost that referendum, “talk
about the government having to negotiate because”, I said in
national caucus at that time, “if my government ever lost a
referendum on such an unclear question, the first thing that
would happen is there would be a vote of confidence”, because I
would never agree, as a Canadian, as an MP, to negotiate the
breakup of a country based on such an unclear question. There
would have been a vote of confidence. We could not have accepted
it. There would have been a free vote.
I was very much behind getting a clear question and very much
behind the clarity bill as we see it now, because what the
clarity bill does, what it simply does, is it binds future
governments to be responsible for ensuring that before they even
begin negotiating they have to consult parliament and parliament
has to decide whether the question is clear. The reason I
believe my Bloc Quebecois colleagues should support Bill C-20 is
because, in the end, if there ever were a clear question that was
agreed upon by this parliament, I, in the interests of civil
society, would have to go along with negotiations. But so long
as there is an unclear question I could never abide by it. I
would always be opposed.
We have to have a clear question. We have to have a majority
that I, as a federalist, accept.
The problem became this. As it was realized in the years that
followed, at least realized by some on the back bench, the real
problem was not with the federal Liberals, because by that time
it was very clear in our caucus that it had to be a clear
question and it had to be a decent or clear majority. What
became clear was that if in the event the Conservatives came to
power or the Reform Party came to power, we know that Joe Clark
would have accepted an unclear question and begun negotiations
and we know from his own mouth that the Leader of the Opposition
would accept a thin majority and carry on to negotiations to
break up the country. The question is how to confine future
governments that are willing to trade off this great nation on
such a thin margin; how to confine them to the will of
parliament.
Bill C-20 does that. It does not set conditions on the
questions. It does not set conditions on the majority. What it
says simply in clause 1(6) and clause 2(4) is that before any of
the governments of the future can negotiate the breakup of the
this country parliament has to approve by free vote—one vote,
one MP—the nature of the question and the nature of the
majority.
It is clearly a situation where it is parliament restraining the
power of future governments. This issue is between parliament
and governments.
It is not between the provinces. It is not between all the
special interest groups out there.
1655
This is why, if I had had my way, I would not have had witnesses
before the committee at all. There was no need to have
witnesses, because this is between the entire 301 MPs and future
governments of this land.
I think the government was right in putting it to a legislative
committee, because clearly there was no other standing committee
that could possibly have the jurisdiction over a question like
this. It cannot be sent to government operations, the justice
committee, or any other committee. There is only one committee,
and it had to be a committee of these MPs, and so it is before
that committee now.
I cannot understand why Reform Party members are standing up and
saying “We have to bring in the provinces. We have to bring in
all these special interests groups”, when this is entirely an
issue, and I stress this, between the House of Commons, all the
MPs assembled, and the government of the future.
I think that if ever the day comes, and I hope it never does
come, that the Bloc Quebecois can mobilize enough support in the
House with a free vote on a question that it thinks contributes
to secession, I would have to support it, but only if it is a
clear question, and I have a free vote, and I can act on behalf
of the Canadians I represent.
[Translation]
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I thank
my colleague for his presentation, but there are a few gaps in
his knowledge.
First of all, our Canada began in 1534, and his in 1867. Ours
became Quebec. That is what they have trouble understanding.
That is what they have trouble getting into their heads. He
tells us that the caucus was, as he said in English, “shocked”.
Shocked indeed, they ought to have woken up earlier, because on
the eve of the referendum, the Prime Minister had said that the
question was clear and that it was irreversible. They did not
have enough brains among the bunch of them to realize that the
question was clear.
They woke up the morning after the referendum saying “Oops, we
nearly lost”. The Prime Minister had convinced them “Just wash
your hands of it, and I'll deal with it”. They still trust that
fellow today, they still believe that his bill is going to get
us somewhere. It will, into a dead end, into a confrontation.
Or we will go.
As I have already said this morning: We are biding our time, but
our day will come.
[English]
Mr. John Bryden: Mr. Speaker, a perfect example of the
tragedy of the separatists is that they are always looking to the
past.
I will say, as a federalist, and I think for the majority of
Quebecers, we look to the future.
[Translation]
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I do not
want to dwell too much on the past. However, I find it rather
strange to hear about clarity in procedure and respect for the
rules coming from a member who very recently altered a bill
after a number of members in this House had signed it. It is a
bit strange. This is not what I call very democratic.
When people say the 1995 question was not clear, they are dead
wrong. The concept of Quebec's independence, in its modern form,
started in 1960 with the RIN. The Parti Quebecois was created in
1968. I was born in 1970. Quebec's sovereignty was being debated
well before my time. And people believe that Quebecers, whether
they voted yes or not, do not know what we are talking about.
This shows a lack of respect.
This shows arrogance towards all Quebecers, the 93% who voted in
the 1995 referendum, whether they voted yes or no.
My question is very simple. Does the member, who knows how
things works and who knows full well that Liberal backbenchers
have no power, not believe that giving the federal parliament,
this House, the authority to determine what is clear and what is
not means that parliament will decide? In other words, the
Liberal majority will decide.
1700
If it is the Liberal majority, it means the Liberal government.
If it is the Liberal government, it means the Prime Minister's
inner circle. If it is the inner circle, it means the Prime
Minister himself.
Does he not believe that it means leaving a majority decision by
Quebecers at the mercy of the whims of one man, the Prime
Minister? Is this not the reverse of democracy?
[English]
Mr. John Bryden: But there is a problem with clarity, Mr.
Speaker. I distinctly said that what is happening here is we are
taking the issue of the clarity of the question away from
government and giving it to every member of the House of Commons,
everyone, the Bloc Quebecois included. It is a decision for all
MPs.
I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, I will not be confined by party
discipline on an issue of whether a question or a majority is
enough to break up the country. One of the reasons why I am
afraid of the Conservative Party and I am afraid of the Reform
Party in the future is that if they ever did acquire power I
would be afraid that they would have enough party discipline in
order to accept a question that was unacceptable.
This way future governments will be required to undertake a free
vote in this parliament before any government can negotiate
separation.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.
I am sure my colleagues would be willing to give their unanimous
consent so my colleague can ask a question to the eloquent
Liberal member, who showed us in spectacular fashion that
federalism is leading us nowhere.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Does the House give
unanimous consent to extend time for three minutes to provide for
one more question?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleagues for allowing me
to ask a question.
Yesterday morning, I was in Sept-Îles, in Quebec. I could have
been in Rivière-du-Loup, or Rimouski, or elsewhere. Since the
member would like so much to understand what is going on, I
would like to ask him why he does not tell the House that it
would be interesting if the committee could travel to listen to
what Quebecers have to say.
I would like him to come and listen to what Quebecers have to
say when they are being told that a question that basically
focuses on a mandate to negotiate will not be allowed. I would
also like him to come and listen to what Quebecers have to say
when they read in the bill that a question that envisages
economic or political arrangements with Canada will not be
allowed either.
Does the member realize that this bill belittles the Quebec
National Assembly, the only parliament where Quebecers have a
majority and always will?
[English]
Mr. John Bryden: I would actually submit that clause 3 of
the bill is a hollow clause. It really does not commit the
government to do anything other than to consult, which would
happen normally anyway.
The bottom line of this whole issue, and the reason I do not
think we have to seek witnesses outside the House, is that we are
really discussing an internal parliamentary democracy issue. The
reason I love this bill actually is that it is one of the few
instances where parliament has actually seized control and is
eliminating the power of the executive.
One of the terrible things that has occurred over the years and
I think got us into a lot of trouble with the Charlottetown
accord, the Mulroney years and even the Trudeau years, is that
the executive branch of government, the Prime Minister and his
cabinet, had too much power. Now we have an instance where
parliament is actually taking some of that power back. I think
it is a very positive thing.
I do not think it is impossible for the Bloc Quebecois to rally
more sovereignty support, perhaps not separatism support, but
sovereignty support. We see the Reform Party in the House today
that is very much in favour of decentralization and more power to
the provinces. We know that has been the tradition of the
Conservatives for a very long time. We also see that the
Conservatives are in fact supporting the Bloc Quebecois on this
particular issue.
So theoretically it is possible in this place for us as MPs on
all sides of the House to change the nature of the country.
But it is an internal problem. It exists in this House. It does
not exist in the provinces. It exists between all MPs versus, in
many instances, the government.
1705
Mr. Gilles Bernier: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I was one of the first to stand up during the question and answer
period but I was not given a chance to ask a question. If I
could have the unanimous consent of the House, I would like to
ask the member a question.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I will ask for the
unanimous consent of the House. However, I want the hon. member
for Tobique—Mactaquac to know that I did seen him, but, if he
will remember, the speaker before the member was recognized for a
question. We win some and we lose some and that one you lost.
I will put the question. Does the hon. member for
Tobique—Mactaquac have unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau (Anjou—Rivière-des-Prairies, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to speak to this debate at this point. As
we can see and hear, it is at the request of the Bloc Quebecois
as well as of my constituents.
This is a rather painful debate, because it is based ultimately
on the assumption of a desire by Quebec to separate and the
negotiations that could follow. It is very painful because, in
my opinion, it would be a step backwards for Canada and Quebec.
It would also plunge the people of Quebec and Canada into
problems we have no idea how to resolve. It is also very
painful because the people of Quebec are less than ever
interested in the option of the people opposite.
After the remarks made in the fall by the Quebec Premier and by
Minister Facal, who were continuously threatening to hold a
referendum during their current mandate, our government has
decided to bring the matter out in the open. Even though it is
painful, even though this time could be given to other
priorities, this is a debate that was forced on us and one that
had to be held because it is useful for everyone now.
This morning, I heard the leader of the Bloc Quebecois setting
himself up as the sole champion of Quebecers, saying “Quebec
does not want Bill C-20”. He was talking about Quebec, its
separation, and so on.
I would remind the Bloc Quebecois that it is an election and
even a referendum behind. In Anjou—Rivière-des-Prairies, the Bloc
Quebecois was defeated in the latest election by 7,600 votes.
This was the case in Bourassa, in the northeastern part of the
island of Montreal, as well.
The people of the Bloc Quebecois tend to say “Yes, but there are
the English.
You were elected where there are anglophones”. For them, votes
are not equivalent in ridings if there are a lot of allophones
or anglophones. In both Bourassa and Anjou—Rivière-des-Prairies,
there cannot be more than 1,000 people of anglophone origin.
In Mercier and Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, neighbouring ridings, Bloc
Quebecois members were elected, but with a majority of 10,000
votes fewer than before. In Québec, the Bloc Quebecois had
500,000 votes fewer than last time.
I would also point out that the referendum was in 1995. As the
member for Anjou—Rivière-des-Prairies—
Mr. Réal Ménard: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
With due respect to my colleague, when he said I had 10,000
fewer votes than previously, he lied.
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member may have been mistaken. If
this is the case, this is not a point of order, this is a point
of debate.
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau: It was 10,000 fewer votes, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Paul Crête: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
If the member had the wrong numbers he should withdraw his
words now. If not—
The Deputy Speaker: Naturally this is only debate.
The hon. member for Anjou—Rivière-des-Prairies.
1710
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau: Mr. Speaker, there were 10,000 fewer votes
in both ridings next to mine and 500,000 fewer votes across
Quebec. Liberal members from Quebec can represent those
Quebecers who do not want a referendum and do not want
sovereignty.
The Bloc Quebecois is talking about a travelling committee. If
we were cynical, we would have accepted its proposal. We would
have had the pleasure of seeing the Parizists, the
Bouchardists, the Liséists, the Monières, the Bellefeuilles—
An hon. member: Democrats.
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau: The leader of the Parti Quebecois had an
option. Now, these people have options and we could have seen
them outline their contradictory options.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau: Mr. Speaker, the Bloc Quebecois members are
yelling, as you can hear, and they are desperate, because they
do not like clarity. It scares them.
I was a member of the national assembly in 1995 when the Quebec
Liberal Party tried to have the Parti Quebecois say clearly that the
referendum vote would be about the creation of a new country
but the amendment was defeated. These paragons of clarity
refused to say that they wanted to have a brand new country.
They hid behind the June 12 agreement and had Quebecers vote on
that.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau: It was not an agreement with Canada, but
with the Action démocratique under Mario Dumont. The referendum
question was on that agreement.
These people are afraid of clarity. Their leader, Parizeau,
spent the whole summer saying he wanted to trap Quebecers like
lobsters, and use lots of tricks and tactics to confuse people.
Parizeau was even ready to make a unilateral declaration of
independence after he had refused to use the word country in the
referendum question.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau: These paragons of clarity keep talking about
self determination. We all accept the principle of self determination. But a
unilateral decision is not the way. One just does not get out of
a country like one gets out of a shopping centre. They do not
accept that Quebec self determination is counterbalanced by
other things. They do not recognize the heritage we share with
all Canadians, our common history, our economic and social
links.
All that does not count. They just want to have a vote and get
out. It does no work that way; not in a co-operative, not in a
marriage, not in a workers' union and not in a professional
association. These people are irresponsible. They want to
restructure the partnership with Canada. The member for
Joliette said “We want to rebuild Canada”.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau: They have no respect whatsoever for the
partnership forged throughout our common history. These people
are in a state of total disarray and they want to hide it with
shouts and insults. They deny that the rest of Canada has any
interest in the issue. For them, the approach is unilateral
“Hello, thank you, we are leaving”. Even separatist Quebecers
have no right to do that.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau: Their problem is that their option has lost
all or most of its supporters.
Parizeau said these people were the spearhead, but the spear has
separated from the head.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau: They are guided by Parizeau, who is pushing
them towards independence and they talk about rebuilding Canada
with a new partnership. This option is totally illogical and
the people of Quebec see it quite well—
The Deputy Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt the member, but the
member for Peterborough wishes to raise a point of order.
[English]
Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
It is a reflection on the noise we have been hearing in the House
of Commons that it took you four or five minutes to realize that
I had a point of order here at this end of the House.
I have to say to you, Mr. Speaker, that I am deeply disturbed by
the fact that this afternoon it has been impossible for those of
us at this end of the House to follow the speech of my colleague
and his predecessors, even though we have an earphone system.
1715
Mr. Speaker, I think you should ensure that my colleague and my
other colleagues have an opportunity to be heard in the House of
Commons.
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member for Peterborough has
raised a valid point of order. I must say that it was fortunate
from my point of view that the hon. member was sitting close to
the Chair; otherwise I think may have had trouble hearing him if
he had been down where the hon. member for Peterborough was
sitting. I did indicate by gesture a few times that I thought
the noise was excessive and I was having trouble hearing.
I am sorry to hear that the hon. member for Peterborough missed
out on the speeches that have taken place this afternoon.
I know that hon. members on all sides of course will want to
restrain themselves because we do have freedom of speech in the
House and members should listen attentively to what other members
are saying even sometimes if we disagree.
[Translation]
I will now hear the member for Charlesbourg. I hope his
comments are not on the same issue because there is nothing I
can do at this point.
Mr. Richard Marceau: Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order, I
would first tell my colleague that, even if he cannot hear, he
is not missing very much, because nothing too astonishing is
being said—
The Deputy Speaker: I am afraid of such a debate.
[English]
It being 5.15 p.m., it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings
and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the
business of supply.
The question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the
House to adopt the amendment?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Deputy Speaker: All those in favour of the amendment
will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Deputy Speaker: All those opposed will please say
nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Deputy Speaker: In my opinion the nays have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Deputy Speaker: Call in the members.
And the bells having rung:
The Deputy Speaker: In accordance with a request from the
chief government whip, the division will be deferred until Monday
at the conclusion of the time provided for Government Orders.
Is it agreed that we call it 5.30 p.m.?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Deputy Speaker: It being 5.30 p.m., the House will
now proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business as
listed on today's order paper.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
1720
[English]
VETERANS HEALTH CARE
Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton East, Ref.) moved:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should
institute national standards for veterans health care with
maintenance and special needs provisions, and have these
standards agreed upon by all provinces before devolving
responsibilities to any province for any portion of care.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Motion No. 13.
I will repeat the motion because it is very important:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should
institute national standards for veterans health care with
maintenance and special needs provisions, and have these
standards agreed upon by all provinces before devolving
responsibilities to any province for any portion of care.
The basic concern behind the motion is that the federal
government has been too quick to rid itself of its health care
responsibilities for veterans by devolving responsibility to the
provinces, and that further devolution of responsibility for our
veterans' health care should be reviewed with caution.
The government used to fulfill its responsibilities to veterans
through a federally funded and administered regime of military
hospitals and veterans homes. Over the last several years many of
these hospitals and homes have become the responsibility of
provincial governments and subject to provincial standards of
health care. Yet the provinces are often in the midst of their
own cost cutting initiatives.
I have visited many health care facilities for veterans
throughout Canada. I have seen firsthand the effects of
downloading and consolidation. I have spoken to veterans who
have been left to sit in wet and soiled diapers for the better
part of a day due to staff shortages and institutional
indifference.
Those military veterans who are sick and disabled are subject to
two government imposed hardships: standards of health care which
are no longer consistent across the country and growing erosion
in the quality of veterans health care. A further hardship to
which our veterans are exposed is the indifference of the active
military to the health care concerns of recently discharged
veterans.
On December 16, Colonel Joe Sharpe released the report of his
board of inquiry into the health care of our peacekeeping
veterans in Croatia. He described the Canadian military's care
of sick peacekeepers from Croatia as disgraceful. His chilling
comment was that the military showed more care and concern for
its airplanes than for the sick veterans.
Many of our veterans do not have access to military standards of
health care either because the health care responsibilities have
already been devolved to particular provinces, or because a
disbelieving military, fearful of being seen to favour large
numbers of disability claims, denies at the outset that the
veteran's health problems relate in any way to his or her term of
military service.
Hearing loss from the sound of artillery, cancers as a result of
exposure to radioactive toxins in the theatre of war, and
psychiatric challenges as a result of exposure to the carnage and
inhumanity of war are examples of very different conditions
experienced by our veterans from those experienced by the
civilian population.
Our political leaders make sure that those whom they send to
theatres of war are completely healthy and they do not arrive at
a battlefield with disabilities. Our healthy men then return
changed by war. Some are damaged physically. Others are damaged
psychiatrically. Some return with mysterious but persistent
ailments for which there is no identified cause and for which
there is no clear cure.
Our veterans should not be subject to civilian levels of health
care since their exposures to the theatres of war are far from
being the normal civilian experiences of most Canadians.
The Ste. Anne de Bellevue military hospital outside Montreal
provides long term care to veterans. The hospital is currently
in a limbo status in terms of its proposed devolution to the
province of Quebec. The Quebec government, while having the
right to act to effect the devolution from the federal
government, has not yet done so.
The veterans who are cared for in this institution plus their
many supporters prefer that the hospital remain under the
jurisdiction of veterans affairs rather than the responsibility
being devolved to the province. Veterans are concerned that they
will be subject to a lower standard of care if the hospital is
administered by the province of Quebec. Veterans are also
concerned that they will lose service if their first language is
English.
If this hospital were to be devolved to Quebec, there is fear
that no Canadian flag would be permitted to fly there if the
recent policy resolutions of the Parti Quebecois on flag
management were to be implemented, specifically that no Canadian
flag be permitted to fly in front of any building under Quebec
jurisdiction.
1725
For these reasons alone, quality of health care plus potential
effects of separatist politics, I suggest that further devolution
to the provinces of health care responsibilities for our veterans
should be viewed with extreme caution.
A growing number of veterans who return from contemporary
theatres of war with unexplained ailments are more likely to be
regarded as malingerers by their military superiors.
Louise Richard, a military nurse in the gulf war, comes from a
family with a famed military history. Her father was a general
in the Royal 22nd Regiment, the Van Doos. She returned from the
gulf suffering from multiple ailments including tuberculosis,
chronic fatigue, blurred vision and severe pain in her muscles
and joints. Her appeals to the military were met with scepticism.
Post-traumatic stress indeed.
Captain Terry Riordon had 23 years of military service. He went
to the gulf war and returned with multiple disabilities which
were categorized by the military as merely epilepsy or psychosis.
At the time of his death nine years after his gulf war service,
tests showed that his body contained depleted uranium. Captain
Riordon was exposed to depleted uranium during his service and
now he is dead.
Despite their claims to the contrary, Canadian military leaders
clearly knew there was something seriously wrong with Captain
Riordon's health. After his death, his body was medically defined
in Canada as contagious and then taped shut in an orange toxic
bag. Post-traumatic stress again. Captain Riordon's wife had
asked the Canadian military to do a tissue analysis but they
refused. She turned to U.S. researchers for help.
Other veterans who have become ill after having returned from
recent peacekeeping arrangements have indicated that they also
want to be tested for the presence of depleted uranium in their
systems, but the military says that such tests prove nothing
since depleted uranium is not harmful. What the military fails
to acknowledge is that depleted uranium outside one's body has
very different effects than uranium particles that are ingested
in a theatre of war. In such circumstances I have been advised
that the inner body acts like an open sore permitting the
radioactive effects of depleted uranium to directly affect cells.
In my capacity as opposition critic for veterans affairs, I have
proposed that an annual medical assessment be made available to
any member or veteran of our armed forces who requests it so that
no one would be compelled to wait for the results of tissue
sample tests in the United States.
Any member of the military who has reason to believe that he or
she is exposed to toxins in a theatre of conflict would have a
legal right to a determination of the nature and extent of such
exposure. Such procedures would also facilitate annual
documentation of developments of physical ailments and ongoing
effects of environmental exposures which would assist in future
health and disability assessments.
It defies logic that so many returning soldiers could all be
categorized as suffering from stress related illnesses. This is
the case with many of the disability claims resulting from
service in Croatia, including that of Colonel Matt Stopford. To
say that these claimants are suffering from some form of
post-traumatic stress does grave disservice to the bravery of
these men and women. Any categorization of the illnesses of
these soldiers as resulting from a nervous condition castigates
all soldiers as potential malingerers even though many are career
oriented soldiers with distinguished military careers.
When soldiers bound for Rwanda raised questions concerning the
effects of anthrax vaccine and its relationship to gulf war
syndrome, they were compelled to take the vaccine under threat of
court martial. Such is the case of former Sergeant Michael
Kipling whose court martial has commenced in Winnipeg this week
despite his resignation from the military. The military
relentlessly and shamelessly hounds Kipling through the courts to
this day.
Some illnesses defy medical categorization based on the current
state of medical knowledge. The gulf war syndrome is suspected
to be caused by the anthrax vaccine or more likely by exposure to
depleted uranium. It may be caused by both.
1730
Whatever the cause, our soldiers are returning from these
theatres of war with very serious illnesses and reportedly high
levels of radioactivity in their bodies. Their claims for
assistance must be given the benefit of the doubt and not have
doubts cast upon them through the insult of categorizing most
such problems as stress related.
The motion before the House is one step toward more formal
recognition that throughout their career and afterward the men
and women of our military bravely face experiences that most of
us do not. Their bravery, when face to face with the dark side
of humanity, calls for them to be treated differently upon their
return to Canada or their retirement from the military. We must
acknowledge that their lives are different from the lives of most
of us in terms of what they have had to face.
National standards of veterans health care referenced
specifically to the unique experiences of our military are but
one step. We must recognize that the devolution of the health
care of our veterans to the provinces should be approached with
extreme caution and safeguards, if it is to be continued at all.
We owe a great debt to our veterans. Surely we must provide them
with the best of health care at all times. We must never forget.
I would seek unanimous consent to make this motion votable.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent that the
motion be votable?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
An hon. member: No.
Mr. Bob Wood (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Veterans
Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in my place
today to respond to the motion of the hon. member for Edmonton
East regarding national standards for veterans health care.
The motion calls for maintenance and special needs provisions
that would be based upon national standards. These standards
would be agreed upon by all provinces before health care
responsibilities for veterans were to be devolved to any province
for any portion of care.
The government's experience to date is that there has been no
problem in the quality of care that could not be solved through
its relationship and its agreements with the contract facilities
and the provinces. If situations arise where action is required
we should let the existing system work, rather than begin the
long process of working with the provinces to create a national
system.
I am not saying that the system cannot be improved. There is
room to do that. Veterans Affairs Canada has 75 contract
facilities across the country. The department encourages all of
its contract facilities to be accredited. Veterans Affairs
Canada also recognizes and respects provincial standards of care
and, to provide assurance that the level of care is meeting the
health needs of veterans, works with the provinces on quality
assurance issues. The department also monitors its own set of 10
outcome areas in its contract and community facilities.
This is the way to improve the system, through the agencies and
authorities now in place and through the effective partnership
that has evolved with the provinces in the delivery of health
care to veterans. That is why we should continue to allow the
work that is already under way to be refined and improved upon in
the best interests of Canada's veterans.
The problem with the motion is that it involves complex issues
and proposes a very simplistic solution. No one who has watched
the evolution of health care across the country would say that
there are simple solutions, especially when these matters involve
both federal and provincial jurisdictions and both the private
and public sectors.
In resolving these complex issues there are several constants of
which Canadians can be assured. One constant is the good work
and continued interest of veterans organizations. They have
monitored the provision of health care for veterans very closely
over the years. I can assure the House that if the health care
delivery system somehow fails to meet the needs of our veterans,
these organizations let us know it. They are very forthright in
their views and they enable the health care system in this
country to respond.
Another constant is the emphasis that Canadians, as a whole,
place on ensuring that our veterans receive treatment
commensurate with the gratitude we feel as a nation; our
gratitude for the sacrifices of those who served their country so
well in our fights for freedom and democracy.
1735
A third constant is the importance that the Parliament of Canada
places on making sure that veterans receive appropriate health
care. Today's debate on the motion of the hon. member is one
example. Another is the report done by the subcommittee of the
other place, entitled “Raising the Bar: Creating a New Standard
in Veterans Health Care”. This report provided input for a new
residential care strategy by the Government of Canada.
Finally, a fourth constant in dealing with the complex issue of
health care for veterans is the work of Veterans Affairs Canada.
I will talk about the services the department provides in a
moment.
First, I would like to emphasize that when it comes to actual
delivery of the health care services there are many different
forces at work. For example, within the health care system there
is a shift toward primary health care that emphasizes early
identification of problems or potential problems and taking a
holistic approach to human health.
The results are a growing emphasis on home care. Veterans
Affairs Canada has been at the forefront of this movement with
its veterans independence program, VIP. This program was first
put in place in the early 1980s and has evolved to meet the
changing needs of veterans. Through VIP, clients are offered
choices for services based on their needs. The idea is to permit
them to remain at home or in their communities as long as
possible. This program has been called one of the most
comprehensive and advanced home care programs in the world and it
may well set the standard for the delivery of health care
services in the 21st century.
Another important shift in health care delivery in Canada is the
aging of our veterans. This is one of the areas where Veterans
Affairs Canada is making a significant contribution, not only to
the health of veterans, but to our understanding of the ways to
respond to the aging population. The department has been
recognized internationally for its work in research and care
giving. The department has been involved in a number of research
projects and helps the government to make informed decisions on
ways to ensure that the health system meets the changing needs of
all Canadians.
Another change in the provision of health care in Canada is the
shift throughout the country from a clinical model of delivering
health to a residential model. Clinical care utilizes nurses as
the primary provider of patient care. In a residential model the
nurses and other health care professionals serve as team leaders
and most of the direct care to the patients is provided by health
care aides who are part of these teams. Veterans Affairs Canada,
through its review of veterans care needs project team, has
determined that this emphasis on residential care is in keeping
with the principal needs of veterans. Clinical care is still
available for veterans and it is maintained in the larger
residential care facilities.
The motion of the hon. member for Edmonton East proposes
national standards for residential care facilities agreed upon by
the provinces. But given this complex and changing environment,
I do not believe that agreeing on a set of standards is
realistic. The environment is changing too quickly. We know
that reaching agreements with the provinces takes time. By the
time an agreement is reached the environment can change so much
that the terms of the agreement are no longer applicable.
Moreover, the needs of Canada's veterans are becoming more
urgent as these veterans get older. We need to act quickly to
address veterans' needs, not wait to reach an agreement with the
provinces. I believe that the federal government has taken a
more effective course in using the processes now at our disposal
to promote a high standard of health care in these facilities.
One of the most important aspects of the process now in place is
the vigilance of veterans organizations. Where they have
perceived that health care delivery has fallen below a standard
they feel should apply to veterans, they have spoken out and the
federal government has responded. For that reason, we have a
process in place today which helps to ensure that veterans
receive good care in these facilities. The process involves an
annual review of long term care facilities. Staff of Veterans
Affairs Canada, usually the area councillors and district office
nurses, visit contract and community facilities. They speak to
the veterans on a confidential basis. They ask questions
designed to determine whether the needs of our veterans are being
met.
The questions they ask involve 10 specific areas of health care
that research has shown to be the most important for our
veterans.
Those 10 areas are: safety and security, food quality, access to
clinical services, access to specialized services, medication
regime, access to spiritual guidance, socialization and
recreation, activation and ambulation, personal care, and
sanitation.
1740
This is an extensive list. It is a comprehensive list of the
key issues that would likely be negotiated with the provinces if
we were to try to establish a national standard for veterans
health care. It is a list of key health care deliverables that
are already being applied across the country, not as a result of
an agreement with the provinces, but through the persuasion of
Veterans Affairs Canada.
The hon. member has good intentions with this motion. He wants
to ensure that veterans can receive quality health care at long
term residence facilities, but it would mean a more complex round
of negotiations with the provinces. It would become more
difficult, not easier, to make any changes necessary to improve
the health care provided to veterans. Such negotiations would
delay the real changes that can be made now to improve
residential care for veterans. There are already initiatives in
place that will deliver the results we all desire, that is,
quality health care for our veterans.
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I wish
to congratulate the member on his motion. I know that it stems
from a sensitivity to our elders, who certainly acted on the
strength of their convictions in World War I and even World War
II, although certain historians claim that, strictly speaking,
it was all one war.
So that there is no misunderstanding, I would like to go over
the motion once again. The Reform Party member is moving:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should
institute national standards for veterans' health care with
maintenance and special needs provisions, and have these
standards agreed upon by all provinces before devolving
responsibilities to any province for any portion of care.
I think that in our respective ridings we all have veterans who
come to us about the deteriorating health care system and the
various administrative difficulties they are experiencing. But
it seems to me that there is a problem with the motion being
suggested.
First of all, the assumption is made that management of veterans
services is an exclusively federal jurisdiction.
Even though funding for access to health care comes from the
federal government, the fact remains that the services people
receive are often provided by the various provincial health care
systems.
It is difficult for us to support national standards. True, we
already have the Canada Health Act, which is somewhat of a
paradox. When one looks at the constitutional distribution of
powers, one realizes that, except for the military aspect and
for quarantine, the federal government has little responsibility
with regard to health.
Mr. Speaker, allow me to salute my colleague, the chairman of
the Standing Committee on Health, who always seems interested
when I make a speech. I am not so pretentious as to think he is
a member of my fan club, but I do think he is a friend.
I was talking about the paradox of having a national health act
when the Constitution gives the federal government very little
responsibility with regard to health since it is only
responsible for the health of veterans and for any issues
related to quarantine and to mechanisms to prevent contagion.
Even though the federal government does not have primary
responsibility with regard to health, it has a Department of
Health employing several thousand public servants.
1745
The Canada Health Act promotes the five following principles:
universality, portability, comprehensiveness and public
administration, and of course universality. These principles are
the main features of our national legislation on the health care
system. Of course, we believe that these principles have merit,
but that it is primarily the provinces that must ensure the
comprehensiveness, the universality, the public character, and
the portability of the health care system.
In other words, no matter in what region, in Quebec or in the
rest of Canada, people must be sure to have access to health
care.
We would readily have agreed.
The Reform member who, I know, is greatly concerned by these
issues should know this: we would certainly have supported a
motion asking the federal government to restore transfer
payments for health. But when this government becomes history,
we will never forget that, through its policies, its unilateral
cuts, from 1993 to 2001, this government cut several billion
dollars in health care alone. This must be said to all those who
are listening today. On the whole, transfer payments were
reduced by $42 billion, and nearly a third of that was cut from
health care, and for Quebec alone, it was $4 billion.
Lucien Bouchard, the Premier of Quebec, one of its great
premiers, is certainly one of the most gifted men of his
generation. I believe that, if I called for unanimous consent,
I would get it, acknowledging Lucien Bouchard as certainly one
of the most gifted men of his generation.
At the first ministers conference, the Premier of Quebec
reminded the others that, Quebec alone had had $4 billion cut
from health. I believe that we need to make the connection with
the position the premiers adopted and the motion our Reform
Party colleague is proposing. If we are to provide better care
to our fellow citizens who served on the battlefield because of
their convictions, adopting national standards is not the way to
do it. I repeat, however, that this objective is an eminently
desirable one.
The way to do it is to reinvest in the health care systems
existing in the provinces.
I am dying to see what is in the budget. I shall be here on
Monday, February 28, of this year of our Lord 2000 AD, in order
to find out what the Minister of Health and the Minister of
Finance have to say. This will be a historical responsibility;
all members are going to follow the budget speech.
We know very well that it will not be possible, whether in the
specific case of care for veterans or the case of all those
covered by the health system who end up in the emergency
departments, in the CLSCs, in the institutions. The people in
those places know that the Minister of Health and the Minister
of Finance need to speak the truth and redress the wrongs of the
past.
Let me say that the Quebec government, which is one of the best
ever, wants to offer health services to our fellow citizens, but
is being deprived of several billions of dollars because the
federal government, suddenly and without negotiating with the
provinces, acted unilaterally. Do you know what “unilaterally”
means? It means a one-sided decision. The federal government
without negotiating with the provinces deprived them in a
cavalier fashion of several billions of dollars.
As I said, we appreciate the motion.
1750
I think that the hon. member, who is the chair of the Standing
Committee on Health and who is said to be a strong supporter of
the Minister of Health for future events, will join me in asking
his government to exert pressure and to make money available in
the Minister of Finance's budget, so that the provinces can meet
the needs of all their clienteles, including the veterans.
Again, I thank the hon. member for being sensitive to this
issue, but we do not believe that the solution lies in national
standards.
I cannot, as a Bloc Quebecois member who is highly respected by
his peers on all sides of the House, support the idea of
national standards. This would not be in agreement with our
vision. I would go against my own principles.
I will conclude by asking all members of this House to ensure
that transfer payments are restored, to make sure that the
provinces, which are responsible for the health care system, can
meet the needs of all their clienteles, including the veterans,
with new moneys. This is our position on that motion.
[English]
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am
very pleased to have the opportunity to rise tonight to speak to
this motion, which I think is a very important motion. I want to
commend my hon. colleague from Edmonton East for bringing forward
his concern for the well-being and the health of our veterans.
We in the NDP support the motion. We think it is very important
that there be national standards for veterans' health care.
National Defence, as we know, comes under federal jurisdiction
and we feel that the federal government must not abandon its
responsibility to ensure that those who defend our country
receive quality health care.
Unfortunately, this is not happening at present. We all know
the many stories, and we see them coming forth daily, of our
military personnel who are returning home from missions abroad:
the gulf war, Somalia, various other missions. These people are
ending up suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, depleted
uranium and so forth.
What we see is a state of denial by DND with respect to even
giving these veterans the benefit of the doubt that their
illnesses may have in fact been caused by something that happened
while they were overseas.
I will speak for a moment on depleted uranium. I attended a
briefing today where DND again attempted to indicate that there
was no real serious concern about this material, no danger in
this and that there was no evidence to support this. However,
this seems to fly in the face of the very real evidence that we
see from the people who are suffering and have been exposed to
this material.
I will remind the House of what Dr. Rosalie Bertell, a famous
epidemiologist, had to say about depleted uranium. She said:
DU is highly toxic to humans, both chemically as a heavy metal
and radiologically as an alpha particle emitter which is very
dangerous when taken internally.
Upon impact, the DU bursts into flames. It produces a toxic and
radioactive ceramic aerosol that is much lighter than uranium
dust. It can travel in the air tens of kilometres from the point
of release, or settle as dust suspended in the air waiting to be
stirred up by human or animal movement.
It is very small and can be breathed by anyone from babies and
pregnant women to the elderly and the sick. This radioactive and
toxic ceramic can stay in the lungs for years, irradiating the
surrounding tissue with powerful alpha particles. It can affect
the lungs, gastrointestinal system, liver, kidneys, bones, other
tissues and renal systems.
She goes on to say:
It is most likely a major contributor to the Gulf War Syndrome
experienced by the veterans and the people of Iraq.
We know that after the war Iraq experienced explosive rates of
stillbirths, children born with defects, childhood leukemia and
other cancers and, in particular, near the Basara region where
these shells were fired.
I think we have to look seriously at the situation concerning
depleted uranium and not put our heads in the sand and try to
pretend that it does not exist.
However, we do see that there is a constant state of denial by
the department to connect any of the symptoms experienced to
depleted uranium or to the missions that our soldiers have been
on.
1755
Now, after a lot of pressure, a lot of studies and so forth, the
government has finally agreed to do some testing of the veterans
for depleted uranium. Even then, I have some concern that the
testing may not be as thorough, as impartial and as complete as
one would like because the talk today was only about the testing
of urine. However, if we want to have any faith restored in our
military and in the capability of the government to support our
men and women when they return home, we must take an impartial
look at this whole situation.
Another example of why we need some high standards of health
care for our veterans is the case of the former Sergeant Kipling,
a veteran with 26 years experience. Eight years ago he refused
to take a vaccine when it was administered before the gulf war
conflict. What did he get for this refusal? He got a court
martial. He refused the vaccine because he was concerned about
his health and about the effects of the vaccine, which has not
been approved in Canada for general use. He had many questions
surrounding its safety and his well-being, yet rather than
getting support, he was court-martialled.
Let us look at those individuals who do not come under military
health care. Those of us who come under the provincial health
care system do not find ourselves faced with these problems. We
do not have to accept medicines or vaccinations that we do not
want to take. However, this is the case in the military.
If the federal government does institute national standards for
health care with maintenance and special needs provisions, as
indicated in the motion, it may indeed have a problem having such
standards agreed upon by all the provinces, particularly if the
federal government does not restore the funding that has been cut
from the health care system. If there is going to be a standard
of health care there has to be sufficient funding to meet that
standard.
We all know that there have been billions and billions of
dollars cut from the health care system to the point that even
our provincial health care systems are struggling today. People
are waiting in long lineups in hospitals. People are not able
to get the kind of care that they should get because of the
funding crisis in the health care system.
Even if we did agree to national standards for our veterans,
there is still a problem in that regard if there is not
sufficient funding coming forward.
The motion talks about having these standards agreed upon by all
provinces before devolving responsibility to any province for any
portion of care. I would point out that the federal government
is extremely good at devolving responsibilities to other levels
of government or to other parties without first putting the
things in order that should be put in order.
Let us look at the example of the Halifax International Airport.
That airport was eventually passed down to the Halifax Airport
Authority without the federal government first accepting
responsibility and cleaning up the environmental hazard due to
the pyritic slate in the area. This was a very important issue
that should have been resolved before the transfer took place.
However, the federal government put the authority in a position
that it had to take it or leave it in the final bargaining.
The authority had to finally accept what should have been the
responsibility of the federal government, which was to clean up
the hazard before devolving the airport down to the authority.
Again, I would have that kind of concern with national health
standards for our veterans. We should work these things out in
such a way that we do not leave the provinces with any
responsibilities that should rightly be carried by the federal
government.
We can see from the massive cuts that have taken place in our
health care system that we are now slowly moving toward a
two-tier American style health system. It is time for Canadians
to take back control of our country, to take back control of the
things we should control.
I recall back to 1993 when the federal government decided to get
out of the housing program and pass the responsibility over to
the provinces. We now see the results of that where we have many
people without homes who are dying on the street. Why?
It is because the federal government withdrew from the social
housing program. It devolved and put this responsibility down to
the provinces and again did not provide adequate funding to
maintain adequate shelter for our citizens.
1800
We must be very careful when we talk about the devolving of
responsibility and passing it down. The federal government seems
to be good at wanting to privatize things, to put them into the
hands of the private sector as if they can do so much better than
public control.
This is a very important motion that has been brought forward
concerning the health of our veterans. It is very important that
Canada supports and looks after those who have gone off to defend
our borders, to fight in places where perhaps we would not even
want to go ourselves, and to carry out jobs that many of us would
not want to do. The least we can do is make sure that when they
return they are well looked after and that we give them the
benefit of the doubt when they are suffering.
I will wind up very quickly by saying again that I commend the
member for bringing forth his concern in this motion. I
certainly feel that all of us in the House should be concerned
about the well-being of our veterans and do everything we can to
ensure that their health and safety are carried forward in a very
positive way. We should also remember the effect not just on
those veterans but on their families, their wives, their
children, and the communities in which they live.
The Deputy Speaker: I understand the hon. member for New
Brunswick Southwest is speaking clothed as he is with special
dispensation.
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Mr.
Speaker, I appreciate that. You might notice that I am being
surrounded by some of the most cerebral people in the House. It
is nice to be accompanied by so many members from all sides of
the House. It very seldom happens in this place.
There are a couple of things I want to make clear from the
outset. Our critic in this area, who should have spoken tonight,
the member for Saint John, had to go back to her constituency. I
am pleased to be speaking in her place.
If we look back at people who have taken on causes in the House
from time to time, I do not think any member of the House has
been more dedicated to a particular cause than the member for
Saint John. She has done an extremely good job in working with
the government, sometimes criticizing the government but
certainly working with the minister on this file.
If the veterans are looking at one particular minister in the
past that really did it all for them it would be George Hees. We
are hoping that the new minister from Newfoundland will evolve
into that type of minister in terms of historical recognition of
someone that really did something for veterans. Obviously there
is more to do.
I want to read the motion to Canadians so they will have an idea
of what we are talking about. The member for Edmonton East, and
we applaud him for it, moved this motion:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should
institute national standards for veterans health care with
maintenance and special needs provisions, and have these
standards agreed upon by all provinces before dissolving
responsibilities to any province for any portion of care.
The Bloc member was somewhat agitated and a bit emotional on the
topic. Maybe the members from Quebec would agree with me in what
I am about to say. It is probably the only point we will agree
on tonight. The veterans hospital in Montreal is a hospital I am
familiar with because that little stretch on Ste. Anne de
Bellevue is the shortest piece of road between routes 20 and 40.
When I do from time to time drive back to New Brunswick I take
that little street by the hospital we are speaking about, the one
that led to this discussion. It is the last veterans hospital in
Canada that will be taken away and devolved into provincial
jurisdiction.
In other words, the federal government will move that hospital
over to the province of Quebec to look after the veterans. It is
telling us that is just a proposal. No negotiations are
presently under way but that is obviously what it is looking at.
I believe it is the last hospital in Canada so designated.
1805
This is part of the bigger picture which I think every member of
the House has expressed in terms of the federal government's lack
of funding in health care. We are seeing that from one end of
Canada to the other in the have provinces and have not provinces.
We are finding that every province has to scramble to find a way
to fund health care because of the denial and cutbacks in funding
from Ottawa.
When we are talking about the five principles of health care in
the country, those principles have been violated time and time
again. We do not have a so-called universal system of health
care. Health care delivery, primary care delivery, varies from
province to province. Some provinces can afford to do more. Some
provinces cannot afford to do more. Some provinces have
continually done less year after year after year.
Why is this? It is because of the cutbacks by the federal
government. We might argue about what the numbers are, but most
of us, regardless of what side of the House we sit on, are
arguing in the $10 billion to $12 billion range. That is a lot
of change, but it is money that the provinces cannot come up
with.
When the model for universal health care or medicare in Canada
was invented back a number of years ago and we entered into
agreements with the provinces, the federal government was coming
in for a bigger share of the cost of delivering those services.
We have to recognize that constitutionally the delivery of
primary care is a provincial jurisdiction. Maybe what we are
talking about, to have this matter finally solved, is some kind
of constitutional arrangement that would allow people who
actually make the rules to somehow have access to the tax dollars
to do that. Presently the federal government has the money to do
it but it is trying to enforce the rules on the provinces without
giving them the tax dollars to actually do it. We have to sit
down and intelligently talk about it at some point.
Just before coming to the House I was in a meeting. Believe it
or not the topic of discussion was the delivery of health care
services to seniors, our aging population. As hon. members know,
that is the next crisis that will hit health care and Canadian
society as our aging population continues to grow.
It is heartwarming that one of the individuals to whom I spoke
just a few short minutes was a gentleman named Larry F. Gray. He
is the service officer for the Royal Canadian Legion. He is a
retired gentleman and donates a good deal of his time to helping
veterans, older citizens, cope with the realities of the present
day. I should have him standing beside me because he could
contribute to this debate like none of us could.
One of the statistics he gave me indicated that there are
approximately 1,630 legion branches in Canada with 450,000 legion
members. If we were creative and we wanted to do something,
imagine what we could do if we could mobilize on a community
basis those people back home. I think we have to find some way
of reinventing the wheel. I know tax dollars will do part of it
but they cannot do all of it.
I know the federal minister raised this trial balloon a few
short weeks ago. It was systematically shot down by just about
every province in terms of delivering community care back in the
communities, back in the provinces. We were talking about home
care and community care.
It was routinely shot down by the premiers. It goes back to my
earlier argument. They are saying “Listen, we cannot afford to
deliver the programs that we have out there presently. Let us
not come up with something else”.
1810
We have to sit down as a nation at the table and realize our
limitations. What can we do to solve the problem? Let us not
continue to argue about it. Let us not continue to talk about
the past. We have to look at the future for ways of
realistically dealing with the health care crisis in Canada.
The member's motion before us is laudable. It should be
supported by every member in the House. At the end of the
argument he is not just talking about veterans, although that is
the primary concern here this evening. It is about all
Canadians. He is really saying in this motion that we should
support health care to a level where all Canadians can expect the
best health care in the world. We are capable of doing that as a
nation.
We are getting into education. We are getting into a provincial
jurisdiction again. Let us realize as parliamentarians that the
two biggest issues are education and health care. They go hand
in hand. Let us educate our young people so they have meaningful
jobs and the kinds of income that will sustain our tax system and
support the programs we are talking about in the House such as
the best health care system in the world. We can do it. I
applaud the member. We are in a position to support his motion.
The Deputy Speaker: If the hon. member for Edmonton East
speaks at this point, he will close the debate.
Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
thank my colleagues for their comments on this very important
issue. I believe it is possible to develop national standards. I
thank the hon. parliamentary secretary for his comments. He made
reference to a comprehensive list that is used now to discuss and
to look at each individual veterans health care centre. It would
not be complicated to expand that list, to formalize that list so
we have national standards.
The reason for national standards for veterans health care is
that veterans are not and have not experienced the life
experiences of ordinary citizens. This manifests itself on my
visits to the veterans health care centres in many ways. For
example, the oxygen rooms in veterans health care centres are
much larger than in ordinary senior homes. There is also
psychiatric difficulties that veterans experience which can
manifest themselves in their later days considerably more than
with ordinary seniors because some of them had horrific
experiences in their wartime service.
I will relate a quick story of my experience in the military as
a military policeman being sent to downtown Trenton to pick up a
person from a hotel. As I was driving him to his home I thought
he was receiving fantastic service for an impaired corporal. I
found out why I was picking him up and taking him home.
Halfway home he broke down and started mimicking machine gun
sounds. He broke into tears. I left him at his doorstep with
his wife consoling him. On my return to the guardhouse I asked
the sergeant what had happened. He explained. This gentleman
was a tailgunner in World War II. He had taken off, tired and
fell fast asleep. The bumping of the takeoff awoke him. He saw
a plane in his gunsight and shot it out of the sky. It was one
of his own planes. These type of experiences only war veterans
have had.
Yes, veterans in veterans care facilities need extra
consideration. Yes, they need extra rules. Yes, they need extra
protection. This is very clear, whether it is the Perley Rideau
Hospital where there are ongoing discussions right now or Ste
Anne de Bellevue.
Before we devolve more we should develop standards that would
reflect the extra psychiatric help. My experience and the
experience of others who have been in the military is that we
were brought up on cigarettes. A lifetime of that does affect
them. There is a substantially higher level of lung problems
among veterans.
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Yes, there is need for extra provisions for veterans health care
centres. How could an ordinary hospital understand all of the
problems of veterans? It is very important for these issues to
be addressed in special facilities with special rules for the
veterans who need it.
I asked earlier for unanimous consent to make this motion
votable. This was denied. Therefore, I now seek unanimous
consent that the motion be withdrawn and that the subject matter
be referred to the Standing Committee on National Defence and
Veterans Affairs.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent that the
motion be withdrawn and that the subject matter thereof be
referred to the Standing Committee on National Defence and
Veterans Affairs?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
An hon. member: No.
The Deputy Speaker: There is no consent. The time
provided for the consideration of Private Members' Business has
now expired. As the motion has not been designated as a votable
item, the order is dropped from the order paper.
ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
[English]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to
have been moved.
FISHERIES
Hon. Charles Caccia (Davenport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on
December 10, 1999 I asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs when
Canada planned to ratify the United Nations Convention on the Law
of the Sea. Tonight I would like to reiterate some of the
reasons why it is in Canada's interest to ratify this law.
Canada signed the United Nations Convention on the Law of Sea in
1982. This marked the culmination of more than 14 years of work
involving participation by more than 150 countries. The
convention needed ratification by 60 countries. It entered into
force in 1994 without Canada's ratification.
Today the law of the sea is the virtual constitution of the
world's oceans. It regulates a wide range of issues including
pollution prevention, conservation of fish stocks, limits of
coastal state jurisdictions, states' rights and responsibilities
and mining of the ocean floor. The law of the sea is a landmark
achievement of international law treating the resources of the
ocean floor as the common heritage of mankind.
Now that 143 countries have ratified the law of the sea, now
that 18 years have passed since Canada signed it, and now that
the red book promise is seven years old, this globally recognized
regime is still without Canada.
The 1993 Liberal Party red book says: “New multilateral
regimes are needed to address many emerging global issues, the
management of global fish stocks, the protection of the world's
atmosphere” and so on. It goes on to say: “A Liberal
government will foster the development of such multilateral
forums and agreements, including an improved law of the sea”.
On December 10, 1999 the Minister of Foreign Affairs said that
the only question remaining was the complete ratification of the
straddling stocks agreement. The excuse Canada gave for not
ratifying the convention in 1994 was problems with the deep
seabed mining provisions of the convention. Canada is thus
putting obstacles in the way of ratification of the law of the
sea.
This time Canada is awaiting complete ratification of the
agreement for the conservation and management of straddling fish
stocks and highly migratory fish stocks. This agreement promotes
good order in the oceans through the effective management and
conservation of high seas resources by establishing: detailed
minimum international standards for the conservation and
management of straddling fish stocks and highly migratory fish
stocks; by setting out principles for the conservation and
management of those fish stocks based on the precautionary
approach and the best available scientific information; by
ensuring that such measures taken under national jurisdiction and
in the high seas are compatible and coherent; and finally,
ensuring there are effective mechanisms for compliance and
enforcement of those measures on the high seas.
1820
Canada's objective of conserving national fish stocks cannot be
achieved by the straddling fish stock agreement alone. Canada
must achieve its objectives through international co-operation.
Canada, with three oceans and immense marine resources, has a
special responsibility to show international leadership.
Therefore Canada can only gain by ratifying the law of the sea
convention rather than risk losing its international reputation
by further delaying the ratification of this important law.
[Translation]
Mr. Denis Paradis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for
Davenport for his comments.
Canada promised to ratify the United Nations Convention on the
Law of the Sea and it will keep that promise. But it is
important that it do so at the right time.
What constitutes the right time will depend on Canadian high
seas fisheries policy.
[English]
Since 1995 Canada has focused its efforts on the development and
adoption of the UN agreement on straddling and highly migratory
fish stocks. This agreement fills the gaps left in the law of
the sea convention relating to high seas fisheries management.
Canada played a leading role in the negotiation of the UN fish
agreement which provides for a strong conservation, management
and enforcement regime on the high seas. We need an effective
international high seas enforcement regime to protect fish stocks
which straddle Canada's 200 mile fishing zone and the adjacent
high seas.
[Translation]
We intend to ratify the United Nations Convention on the Law of
the Sea as soon as an effective high seas regime is in place.
This will include the introduction of the UN fisheries agreement
and its effective enforcement between Canada and the main
nations fishing off our coasts.
Canada ratified the United Nations fisheries agreement on August
3, 1999, and encourages other nations, including members of the
European Union, to do the same.
[English]
TAXATION
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
on November 5 I asked the Minister of Finance a question about
taxes for business and why he did not undertake to reduce taxes
for businesses to help the economy. At that time the
parliamentary secretary responded that we already have very low
taxes for businesses. I simply disagree with that statement.
As the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural
Resources will be answering my question, I assume the Liberal
government views taxes as a natural resource to be gathered into
their coffers to redistribute as they see fit. We are witnessing
that with what is happening at human resources. We know all
about that billion dollar boondoggle. Perhaps it is because of
the underlying belief that tax dollars are a natural resource. I
can only assume that.
I did see the parliamentary secretary practising his answer. I
hope he puts away the scripted response that has been given to
him by the department and actually answers the question. It
would be reassuring.
Mr. Lynn Myers: Mr. Speaker, why does the hon. member not
put his script away? What is he reading?
Mr. Grant McNally: Mr. Speaker, I hear the member for
Waterloo—Wellington also saying that he wishes the parliamentary
secretary would put away his scripted question and answer as
well. I thank him for that.
The Minister of Industry has just wakened to the fact that
corporate taxes are very high in this country and they need to be
reduced.
Mr. Lynn Myers: Rubbish.
Mr. Grant McNally: Mr. Speaker, the member for
Waterloo—Wellington says rubbish, but the Minister of Industry
says this, and I will quote it directly for him and send him the
article:
Essentially the brain drain is a job drain.
What studies are turning up is not that personal taxes are such
a big deal, but that opportunity is leading people to the United
States. If it is opportunity, then we have to look at the
policies that are going to increase opportunity in Canada.
He goes on to state that corporate taxes are high on his list of
wishes. That was the Minister of Industry. I hope he has a
chance to sit down and talk to the Minister of Finance in the
next couple of days because the Prime Minister already leaked
that the budget would be announced on February 28.
We hope there are going to be substantial reductions in taxation,
not only for small businesses, but for hard working Canadians as
well. We really hope that will be the case. We somehow doubt
it, but we hope that will be the case.
1825
I am going to anticipate part of what the answer of my colleague
will be: that we have low taxes, the minister has reduced taxes,
everything is going fine, just wait until February 28 and we will
see what kind of great things the government is going to do. I
would state that this is the government that has increased taxes
year after year in a shell game approach of saying that it has
reduced taxes when, in effect, it has increased them.
The government does not see that reducing personal income taxes
and taxes for business will stimulate the economy. The Reform
Party has a proposal which has been endorsed by WEFA, a highly
regarded independent organization which the Minister of Finance
uses himself for his own numbers that he runs for his budget
projections, which says that this is a very good program in which
we will be able to substantially reduce taxation to stimulate the
economy.
It is my wish and my hope that the government will take such an
approach to stimulate the economy and to substantially reduce
taxes for businesses and for all Canadians. However, I do not
think it is actually going to be delivered by the Liberals
because of their actions of increasing taxes over and over again.
We will wait to see.
I urge Canadians to wait to see what kind of new spending the
government is going to announce when the budget is brought
forward. I wait with bated breath to hear my colleague's,
hopefully unscripted, response.
Mr. Brent St. Denis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Natural Resources, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to say
first that the sense of humour of the member for
Dewdney—Alouette is almost as good as his hockey skills.
The government has always taken the issue of business taxes very
seriously. In fact it was this government which set up a
technical committee on business taxation, announced in the 1996
budget, because we were and are concerned about the impact of
business taxes on jobs and growth.
However, we must not lose perspective concerning the problems we
inherited when first elected in 1993. In fact we were left with
quite a mess.
First, we had to deal with a $42 billion deficit. Nothing could
take priority over wrestling that deficit to the ground. In
fact, we have announced a string of surpluses which, to my
understanding, is a record in the history of this country, and we
are proud of that.
Second, Canada still faces a debt burden that is the second
largest in the OECD. Five years ago 36 cents out of every dollar
collected was used to pay interest on the debt. We have
successfully brought it down to 27 cents on each dollar, and it
is falling. This is clearly an important problem that needs
further fixing.
Third, we have a personal income tax burden which is the highest
we have had in our history, granted, and too high in relation to
other developed nations. That is why this is our number one tax
priority.
However, this is not to say that we will not act on business
taxes. We will. The 1999 fall economic and fiscal update stated
that this government is committed to ensuring that we have an
internationally competitive business tax system.
I am confident that the upcoming budget will lay out a multi-year
tax reduction plan which will respond responsibly to our
commitment to split surpluses between tax and debt reduction on
the one hand and social and economic investment on the other
hand.
I remind the member across the way to be here on February 28 to
hear the good news.
The Deputy Speaker: The motion to adjourn the House is
now deemed to have been adopted. The House stands adjourned
until tomorrow at 10 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 6.28 p.m.)