36th Parliament, 2nd Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 111
CONTENTS
Friday, June 9, 2000
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
1010
| CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY ACT
|
| Bill C-19. Report stage
|
| Speaker's Ruling
|
| The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault) |
| Motions in amendment
|
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
| Motions Nos. 1, 3, 4 and 7
|
1015
| Hon. David Kilgour |
1020
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
1025
| Mr. Jean Dubé |
1030
1035
1040
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
| Motions Nos. 2, 5, 6, 8 and 9
|
1045
1050
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
1055
| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| PEOPLE SMUGGLING
|
| Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
| SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH
|
| Ms. Judy Sgro |
| HELMUT OBERLANDER
|
| Mrs. Karen Redman |
1100
| CFB SHILO
|
| Mr. Inky Mark |
| CADETS IN CANADA
|
| Mr. Ivan Grose |
| THE ENVIRONMENT
|
| Mr. Serge Cardin |
| ORGANIZATION OF AMERICAN STATES MINISTERS' CONFERENCE
|
| Mr. Rick Limoges |
| MUNICIPALITIES
|
| Mr. Darrel Stinson |
1105
| EMPLOYMENT
|
| Ms. Sophia Leung |
| SERGEANT TOMMY PRINCE
|
| Mr. Pat Martin |
| CANADIAN ECONOMY
|
| Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
| CANADA GAZETTE
|
| Ms. Carolyn Parrish |
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
| Mr. Jean Dubé |
1110
| HEALTH
|
| Mr. Richard M. Harris |
| FISHERIES
|
| Mr. Mark Muise |
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Rick Laliberte |
| GREENHOUSE GASES
|
| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
1115
| ALL SAINTS' ANGLICAN CHURCH
|
| Ms. Marlene Catterall |
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
| HEALTH
|
| Mr. Jay Hill |
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
| Mr. Jay Hill |
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
| Mr. Jay Hill |
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
| Mr. Charlie Penson |
1120
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
| Mr. Charlie Penson |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| PARENTAL LEAVE
|
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral |
1125
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| GASOLINE PRICES
|
| Mr. John Solomon |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. John Solomon |
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
| FISHERIES
|
| Mr. Mark Muise |
| Hon. David Anderson |
| Mr. Mark Muise |
1130
| Hon. David Anderson |
| AIRLINE INDUSTRY
|
| Ms. Val Meredith |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Ms. Val Meredith |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| CANADA DAY
|
| Mr. Pierre de Savoye |
| Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
| Mr. Pierre de Savoye |
| Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
| IMMIGRATION
|
| Mr. Chuck Cadman |
1135
| Hon. Elinor Caplan |
| Mr. Chuck Cadman |
| Hon. Elinor Caplan |
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
| Mr. Ghislain Fournier |
| Ms. Bonnie Brown |
| Mr. Ghislain Fournier |
| Ms. Bonnie Brown |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. Lee Morrison |
1140
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
| Mr. Lee Morrison |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT CANADA
|
| Mr. Maurice Dumas |
| Ms. Bonnie Brown |
| RURAL DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Larry McCormick |
| Hon. Andy Mitchell |
| THE ECONOMY
|
| Mr. Ken Epp |
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
| Mr. Ken Epp |
1145
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
| HEALTH
|
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES
|
| Mr. Jean Dubé |
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION
|
| Mr. Jean Dubé |
1150
| Mr. Stan Dromisky |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mrs. Marlene Jennings |
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
| THE ECONOMY
|
| Mr. Richard M. Harris |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| AFRICA
|
| Mrs. Francine Lalonde |
| Hon. David Kilgour |
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Rick Laliberte |
| Hon. Robert D. Nault |
1155
| CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION
|
| Mr. Mark Muise |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| LABOUR
|
| Mr. Ovid L. Jackson |
| Mrs. Judi Longfield |
| HEALTH
|
| Mr. Jay Hill |
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
| CANADIAN MILITARY
|
| Mr. René Laurin |
| Mr. Robert Bertrand |
1200
| WORKPLACE SAFETY
|
| Mr. Pat Martin |
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| CANADA GAMES
|
| Mr. Jean Dubé |
| Hon. Denis Coderre |
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
| GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| NATIONAL ARTS CENTRE
|
| Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
1205
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Transport
|
| Mr. Stan Keyes |
| Justice and Human Rights
|
| Mr. Ivan Grose |
| Procedure and House Affairs
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| ENERGY PRICE COMMISSION ACT
|
| Bill C-488. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. John Solomon |
1210
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Procedure and House Affairs
|
| Motion for concurrence
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| PETITIONS
|
| Gasoline Prices
|
| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
| Importation of Plutonium
|
| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
| Pesticides
|
| Mrs. Marlene Jennings |
| Health
|
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
| Organ Donors
|
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
| Divorce Act
|
| Mr. Mac Harb |
| Employment Insurance
|
| Mr. Ghislain Fournier |
1215
| Health Care
|
| Mr. Pat Martin |
| Dangerous Offenders
|
| Mr. John Solomon |
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY ACT
|
| Bill C-19. Report stage
|
| Speaker's Ruling
|
| The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault) |
| Report Stage
|
| Mr. Ken Epp |
1220
1225
| Mrs. Francine Lalonde |
1230
1235
1240
| Motion for concurrence
|
| Hon. Lucienne Robillard |
1245
| CANADA NATIONAL PARKS ACT
|
| Bill C-27. Report stage
|
| Speaker's Ruling
|
| The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland) |
| Motions in amendment
|
| Mr. Inky Mark |
| Motions Nos. 1 and 2
|
| Mr. Rick Laliberte |
| Motion No. 3
|
| Mr. Inky Mark |
| Motions Nos. 4, 5 and 10
|
| Mr. Rick Laliberte |
| Motion No. 13
|
| Mr. Inky Mark |
1250
| Mr. Pierre de Savoye |
1255
| Mr. Rick Laliberte |
1300
| Mr. Mark Muise |
1305
| Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
1310
1315
| Mr. Rick Laliberte |
| Motions Nos. 6 and 7
|
| Mr. Inky Mark |
| Motions Nos. 11 and 12
|
| Mr. Rick Laliberte |
| Motion No. 15
|
| Mr. Pierre de Savoye |
| Mr. Pierre de Savoye |
1320
| Mr. Inky Mark |
| Motions Nos. 8 and 9
|
| Mr. Pierre de Savoye |
| Motion No. 14
|
| Motion for concurrence
|
| Hon. Lucienne Robillard |
| BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
|
| Motion
|
| Mr. Bob Kilger |
1325
| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
| CULTURAL INDUSTRY
|
| Motion
|
| Mrs. Karen Redman |
1330
1335
| Mr. Pat Martin |
1340
1345
| OFFICIAL REPORT
|
| CULTURAL INDUSTRY
|
| Motion
|
| Mr. Ken Epp |
1350
1355
| Mr. Jean Dubé |
1400
1405
| Mr. Rick Laliberte |
| Motion
|
1410
| Appendix
|
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 111
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Friday, June 9, 2000
The House met at 10 a.m.
Prayers
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
1010
[English]
CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY ACT
The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill C-19, an act
respecting genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes and
to implement the Rome Statute of the International Criminal
Court, as reported (with amendment) from the committee.
SPEAKER'S RULING
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): There are nine
motions in amendment standing on the notice paper for report
stage of Bill C-19, an act respecting genocide, crimes against
humanity and war crimes and to implement the Rome Statute of the
International Criminal Court and to make consequential amendments
to other acts.
[Translation]
Motions Nos. 1, 3, 4 and 7 will be grouped for debate and voted
on as follows:
(a) the vote on Motion No. 1 will apply to Motions Nos. 3 and 7;
(b) if Motion No. 1 is concurred in, a vote will be necessary on
Motion No.4;
(c) however if motion No. 1 is negatived, it will be unnecessary
to proceed with the vote on Motion No. 4.
[English]
Motions Nos. 2, 5, 6, 8 and 9 will be grouped for debate and
voted on as follows: Motions Nos. 2, 5, 6, 8 and 9 will be voted
on separately.
[Translation]
I will now put Motions Nos. 1, 3, 4 and 7 to the House.
Mr. Daniel Turp: Madam Speaker, I
rise on a point of order. I read the Chair's decision on the
acceptability of certain of the amendments to Bill C-19 I
introduced. I find the Chair's decision on two of them
questionable and I would ask that it be reviewed.
At issue are the two motions dealing with the schedule.
Basically, both amendments are aimed at making sure the complete
text of the Rome Statute is incorporated into the schedule to
the bill, whereas currently only two articles are incorporated
in the bill as it now stands.
These two motions were supposedly found out of order because the
amendments went beyond the scope of the bill.
I find it difficult to understand how the amendments go beyond
the scope of the bill as they are aimed at incorporating the
whole statute when some parts of it are already incorporated
into the bill.
The true aim of these amendments is to circulate the text of the
Rome Statute so that citizens may learn what it is all about
when they read the act, as is the case with other implementing
acts which include the text of the Geneva conventions, for
instance, or of the treaties on antipersonnel mines or the
nuclear test ban, which were recently passed by this House.
I urge the Chair to review the decision and rule in order two of
the amendments aimed at incorporating the complete text of the
Rome Statute in Bill C-19.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): At this time I would like
to take the point of order raised by the member under advisement
and we will get back to him on that very soon.
MOTIONS IN AMENDMENT
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ) moved:
That Bill C-19, in Clause 2, be amended by adding after line 19
on page 1 the following:
““Minister”, in relation to any provision of this Act, means such
member of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada as is designated
by the Governor in Council as the Minister for the purposes of
that provision.”
That Bill C-19 be amended by adding after line 14 on page 2 the
following new clause:
“3.1 The Governor in Council may, by order, designate any
member of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada to be the Minister
for the purposes of any provision of this Act.”
That Bill C-19 be amended by adding after line 14 on page 2 the
following new clause:
“3.1 The Minister may designate any person to exercise the
powers and perform the duties and functions of the Minister under
this Act that are specified in the designation and on that
designation that person may exercise those powers and shall
perform those duties and functions subject to such terms and
conditions, if any, as are specified in the designation.”
That Bill C-19 be amended by adding after line 14 on page 22 the
following new clause:
“32.1 The Minister shall prepare an annual report with
respect to the implementation of this Act and shall cause a copy
of the report to be laid before the House of Commons within three
months after the end of each financial year or, if the House is
not then sitting, on any of the first fifteen days next
thereafter that it is sitting.”
1015
He said: Madam Speaker, we have noticed that some of the clauses
which are the subject of the amendments you just read cannot be
found in several pieces of legislation recently passed by the
House of Commons to implement international conventions.
For example, in the Anti-Personnel Mines Convention
Implementation Act and in the Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban
Treaty Implementation Act, it says at the beginning that a
particular minister is designated by the governor in council to
administer the act and that it is possible for that minister to
delegate this responsibility to another minister.
In the Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty Implementation Act,
there is also a provision that was added, at our request, to
take into account the way in which Australia fulfilled its
obligations under that convention, provision whereby the
minister was required to submit an annual report on the
application of the act in order to inform the people about how
the act was administered and how it allowed the country to
fulfil its obligations under the treaty to which it had become a
party.
That is the reason why amendments such as these could not only
be useful, but could also give more consistency to the various
implementation bills this Parliament is called upon to pass so
that Canada's international obligations under the treaties to
which it becomes a party are fulfilled.
I am calling here for a certain degree of consistency in our
treaty implementation legislation, a consistency which is
lacking and which the House should reflect upon more deeply
since we do not seem to be able to have the same legislative
practices whether we are dealing with the anti-personnel mines
convention or, in this case, with the Rome Statute of the
International Criminal Court.
These amendments would improve the bill and give more
consistency to our treaty implementation legislation.
Hon. David Kilgour (Secretary of State (Latin America and
Africa), Lib.): Madam Speaker, I want to thank my hon.
colleague. I know that he is a renowned scholar and that
everybody respects his opinions as an international law
professor.
[English]
The importance of establishing the international criminal court
literally cannot be overstated. The court is a legacy of the
Nuremberg war trials which came out of the ashes of the Holocaust
and the second world war.
We are all aware of the depths of horror that the 20th century
brought to millions and millions of our fellow human beings on
this planet. There have been forced famines, genocides, mass
expulsions, mass rapes, that horrible term ethnic cleansing, and
every war crime one could imagine. Those who commit those crimes
from now on must be held accountable to humanity.
People who do these things must no longer be able to hide
anywhere on the face of the earth. In order for the
international criminal court to be created, 60 nations must
ratify this proposal before December of this year.
1020
Many members of the House have recognized the importance and the
urgency of ratifying the international criminal court and
actively urge other nations to follow suit.
Human rights NGOs have echoed repeatedly the urgency of passing
the bill at committee hearings. I would like to commend in
particular the members for Mount Royal, Burnaby—Douglas and our
colleague from Mercier for their unequivocal commitment to seeing
the establishment of the court and the timely adoption of this
bill.
May I also commend the members of the foreign affairs committee
and in particular the chair, the hon. member for Toronto
Centre—Rosedale, who played a most productive, thoughtful and
constructive role at the committee.
[Translation]
The hon. member for Beauharnois—Salaberry is very much aware of
that because he was fully involved maybe more than any other
member in the committee hearings and he knows that the committee
heard a lot of testimony.
[English]
It passed 18 amendments as a result of suggestions from members
of all parties, including the hon. member's own party. I
understand it was a most non-partisan, collaborative and
satisfying process such that the chair referred to it in the
House the other day. He said, “I should like to take one minute
and share an observation with the House. It is often said that
in committee time is not given to study bills properly and to
amend them. I urge members of the House to have a look at the
many amendments which were made to this bill with the
co-operation of all members”. The member for
Beauharnois—Salaberry expressed his satisfaction with the
process calling it “une expérience tout à fait extraordinaire”.
It is therefore a surprise, although it is perfectly proper as
the member knows, to see a further 20 amendments at report stage,
possibly knowing it would delay passage of the bill while there
are only a very critical few days left in the House before
adjournment. I would submit that the amendments are either
identical or similar to those considered thoroughly at the
committee stage, or more relevant to the hon. member's personal
interest, the role of parliament in treaty implementation.
[Translation]
Thus, we were surprised on this side of the House to see the
hon. member submit so many amendments this morning. It must be
clear that the government cannot accept any of these amendments.
I must also clarify something: I mentioned that 60 countries
must approve the treaty; this is a ratification issue. Sixty
countries must ratify the treaty before it can come into effect.
[English]
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Madam Speaker, I am
pleased to have the opportunity to speak to Bill C-19 and the
various amendments.
This bill is very important for all of us. As has been indicated
it relates to the implementation of Canada's obligations under
the Rome statute regarding the international criminal court.
This bill would certainly make it an offence to commit genocide,
a crime against humanity, or a war crime.
When we look around today we see so many examples of war crimes
and atrocities being committed that this is a certainly an area
we have to pay strict attention to. Human life is our most
valuable resource and asset. We see crimes being committed
against humanity, against children, women and quite often
innocent bystanders of war. This is an area that we have to
seriously look at.
Looking at the background of this situation, it was in July 1998
that 160 nations decided in Rome to establish a permanent
international criminal court. This was a big move forward in
terms of looking after the interests of mankind and protecting
humanity.
1025
The bill deals with the implementation of Canada's obligations
and indeed is very important. Canada has been a strong proponent
for the establishment of the international criminal court. It has
often been suggested that our poor record at home in prosecuting
suspected war criminals is something to look at closely.
We certainly support implementing our obligations. With respect
to the amendments, I support my hon. colleague from the Bloc
Quebecois concerning the necessity of an annual report. I
believe that is in Motion No. 7. An annual report is important
because it brings about accountability and transparency. It is
the record and way of informing the public as to what we are
doing on issues. We know how very important annual reports are
so we support the motion.
I will not speak to the amendments tabled today because we have
not had the opportunity to study them. However, certainly we
would support anything that helps or alleviates some of the
suffering we see as a result of war crimes, and brings about a
fair process to deal with that kind of situation.
As an aside, we talk about war crimes and define them in terms
of genocide and various acts and atrocities. In the whole
process of war and our involvement, when we send our troops
abroad into the battlefield, we have to have a much broader
definition of what is criminal, what really can be “criminal”
when it comes to how we treat our own people who defend our
shores. In a lot of instances we have to draw our attention to
what we ourselves do by way of supporting or not supporting our
troops when they are on missions.
There is one thing which I think is a very serious “crime”.
When a soldier who has dedicated and devoted his life to our
country goes off to war and he is concerned about taking a
vaccine that could harm him because of problems with that
vaccine, he faces a court martial. The individual has to go
through the strain, stress and turmoil of a court martial. It
places stress on him, his family and others close to him. There
are the costs involved. When he is successful and a judge
pronounces that something has been done wrong and his rights have
been violated, then the government sees fit to institute an
appeal against that decision and the individual is put through
further turmoil, strife, pain and suffering. This to me is a
crime in itself and is something we have to look at.
We cannot talk about being concerned about war crimes and what
happens in other parts of the world when here at home we put our
own people through what can be truly described as a criminal
experience.
With those comments I conclude my remarks. When we look at
these things I urge that we truly consider what we are saying and
where we are coming from in our own hearts and minds.
[Translation]
Mr. Jean Dubé (Madawaska—Restigouche, PC): Madam Speaker, I am
pleased to speak today on Bill C-19, an act respecting genocide,
crimes against humanity and ward crimes.
The Progressive Conservative Party supports and applauds this
excellent initiative by the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
First of all, I should like to congratulate the members of the
standing committee on foreign affairs, who all worked together
on this initiative without any needless party politics.
Moreover, the committee report was tabled this week and all
members are, I believe, pleased with the way it has turned out.
Much can be said about this bill. I believe it would be
advisable to review the main thrust of Bill C-19.
1030
The purpose of Bill C-19 is to implement Canada's obligations
under the Rome Statute, adopted by the United Nations Diplomatic
Conference of Plenipotentiaries on the Establishment of an
International Criminal Court, the ICC, on July 17, 1998. In
order to have a clear understanding of this bill, it is
important to first of all have a clear understanding of the
objective and scope of the Rome Statute.
The Statute was approved in July 1998 by 120 countries and will
come into existence after ratification by the parliaments of 60
states. The ICC will be the first permanent international instance
mandated to investigate the most serious of crimes under
international law: genocide, crimes against humanity, and war
crimes.
I am proud. It was high time for Canada to show some leadership
by ensuring that the authors of these horrible crimes are
charged and punished. With so many lives lost, the
international community should work together in order to do
something.
With Bill C-19 Canada joins forces with the numerous countries,
which are taking the necessary steps to integrate the Rome
Statute with their national legislation. Although nine states
have already ratified the Statute, it is a source of pride to
the Progressive Conservatives Party that Canada is one of the
first to enact legislation to implement the Rome Statute.
According to the Department of Justice there are presently in
Canada 400 people that are deemed to have been involved in war
crimes, crimes against humanity or genocide.
It is totally unacceptable that those war criminals could
quietly live as if nothing had happened. Canada does not want to
be recognized as a haven for war criminals.
The clock was ticking. The international community had to get
together to develop a permanent organization having all the
powers to fulfil it's obligations. We could not ignore the
atrocities committed in some countries under the guise of war
any more. It was too easy, and unfortunately, the previous system
of ad hoc tribunals was not very efficient. Being a permanent
organization, the ICC will be able to fulfil its mandate.
Clause 4 of the bill states that every person who commits
genocide, a crime against humanity or a war crime is guilty of
an indictable offence. The definition of those three terms is
based on sections 6, 7 and 8 of the Rome Statute.
It is an addition to the criminal code since every person
convicted of one of these offences is sentenced to life
emprisonement if their crime was intentional. In all other
cases, that person is liable to life imprisonment.
1035
These measures would apply to offences committed in Canada and
would allow the government to bring an action against the
perpetrators or to extradite them so that they can be judged by
the ICC. As I have already said, it is a real improvement
because it was very difficult for the Department of Justice to
prosecute war criminals who had found refuge in Canada because
of the court's decision in the Finta case that we have already
talked about.
There is however an element on which I would like to come back,
and it is the defence argument of obedience to the orders of a
superior.
It will be remembered that in his client's defence, Mr. Finta's
lawyer argued correctly that, under the criminal code, the
defence of obedience to a superior's orders was available to
members of the military or police forces.
From now on this kind of defence will no longer be available,
except under international law. These provisions were necessary.
Another feature of the bill is its retroactivity. Some expressed
reservations about this. Nevertheless, I want to congratulate
the minister and the committee on their work. In most cases, the
events in question occurred as far back as the second world war
or during conflicts prior to the signing of the Rome Statute.
One must be realistic.
Since most of the events date back more than 50 years, it is
becoming increasingly difficult to find the individuals who
perpetrated war crimes or crimes against humanity, especially
under the nazi regime. Moreover, justice department officials
had difficulty finding witnesses to those events to justify the
extradition. If the bill had not applied retroactively, it would
not have made sense.
Bill C-19 is fairly complete, as it gives jurisdiction to
Canadian courts in the case of offences committed outside Canada
through clause 8. This clause also recognizes that Canadian
courts have the authority to prosecute any person charged with
having committed specific acts, providing one of the conditions
listed exists.
With respect to Bill C-19, Canada now has an obligation to
surrender people caught by the ICC for genocide, crimes against
humanity and war crimes. I could say a lot more about the need
for such a bill, but in conclusion I will mention that victims
of war have suffered terrible ordeals, and through Bill C-19
Canada takes the position that no war criminal is safe or
welcome within our borders.
This position has the support of Canadians and the Progressive
Conservative Party. We do not want our great country to serve as
a haven for war criminals.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is the House ready for the
question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The question is on Motion
No. 1. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): All those in favour of the
(motion, amendment) will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): All those opposed will
please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): In my opinion the nays have
it.
Some hon. members: On division.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I declare the motion lost on
division.
(Motion No. 1 negatived)
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Consequently, I also declare
Motions Nos. 3 and 7 negatived.
I will now put the motions in Group No. 2 to the House.
1040
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ) moved:
That Bill C-19 be amended by
adding after line 12 on page 2 the following new clause:
“2.1 The purpose of this Act is to implement Canada's
obligations under the Rome Statute.”
That Bill C-19, in Clause 8, be amended by replacing lines 30 to
43 on page 9 and lines 1 to 6 on page 10 with the following:
“8. A person who is alleged to have committed an offence
under section 6 or 7 may be prosecuted for that offence if, at
the time the offence is alleged to have been committed, Canada
could exercise jurisdiction over the person.”
That Bill C-19 be amended by adding after line 2 on page 11 the
following new clause:
“11.1 For greater certainty, in proceedings for an offence
under any of sections 4 to 7, an accused who formerly occupied a
position as a Head of State or government, member of a Government
or parliament, elected representative or government official and
who, at the time of the proceedings, no longer occupies that
position, may not rely on immunities or special procedural rules
that may attach, by virtue of statute law or common law, to the
official capacity of the person.”
That Bill C-19 be amended by adding after line 14 on page 22 the
following new clause:
“32.1 A certificate issued by the Minister of Foreign
Affairs stating that at a certain time a state of war or armed
conflict existed between Canada and the state named therein is
admissible in evidence in any proceedings in respect of an act or
omission that constitutes an offence under this Act and is
conclusive proof of the facts so stated.”
That Bill C-19, in Clause 70, be amended by replacing lines 23
and 24 on page 37 with the following:
He said: Madam Speaker, that group of motions will give us the
opportunity to comment on the substance of Bill C-19.
As a plenipotentiary in this House and after hearing with
pleasure the comments of my colleagues from the Progressive
Conservative Party and the New Democratic Party, as well as
those of the Secretary of State for Latin America and Africa, I
would like to begin my speech on the second series of my
substantive amendments to this the bill by saying that the Bloc
Quebecois strongly supports Bill C-19.
We believe that it is very important for the House to pass the
bill so it can become an inspiration for other nations or
parliaments that will also be called upon to meet their
international obligations by fulfilling the commitments
resulting from their participation in the Rome conference, the
adoption of the statute, its signature and its ultimate
ratification, which usually follows the adoption of an
implementation bill like Bill C-19.
It is true that Canada could become one of the main advocates of
the statute in the international community to convince 50 other
states to ratify the Rome Statute. So far, ten nations, one
very recently, have ratified the statute. We need 50 more
countries to pass similar legislation so that the statute can
come into force and the International criminal court can start
to operate, try and, if need be, sentence people found guilty of
serious crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide or war crimes.
Consequently the Bloc fully supports the bill and, with my
colleagues from Mercier and Laval Centre, we co-operated in the
work of the committee to improve the bill. However, there is
still room for improvement.
That is the object of some of our amendments at report stage.
Incidentally, we had made our intentions known in this regard in
committee.
1045
I understand the secretary of state's surprise, but is it not
appropriate sometimes for the opposition to surprise the
government? It always has so many surprises in store for us.
In this case, we wanted to propose a few amendments to further
improve the bill. I will call the members' attention to two of
those amendments for the purposes of this debate and, most
likely, for the purposes of the arguments that may take be
raised before the courts that will be called upon to enforce
this legislation, prosecute and eventually convict the authors
of such serious crimes.
Motion No. 5, which amends clause 8 of the bill, would give
Canadian courts extended universal jurisdiction in the case of
serious international crimes such as those covered by Bill C-19.
In this bill, universal jurisdiction is limited in scope because
there has to be some kind of connection with regard to the
nationality of the victim or the accused, or to the person who,
during an armed conflict, committed a war crime.
There is also the connection to the territory since a person
cannot be accused if he or she is not present in Canada.
We would like to see this notion of custodian jurisdiction
extended so that Canada has the power to request the extradition
of a person for prosecution under this bill, a power countries
such as Belgium and Switzerland seem to have already assumed.
We would like the universal jurisdiction recognized in Bill C-19
to be wider in scope, so that Canada can stop being a haven for
war criminals and become a place where these people are brought
to justice. If Canada gave its courts extended universal
jurisdiction, compared to what is provided for in Bill C-19 as it
stands now, Canada would be in a position where it would meet
its international commitments better than any other country and
where it would show its desire not to let serious international
crimes go unpunished.
There is another provision that we would wish to see amended. It
would involve adding to this bill a new clause, clause 11.1,
which would very explicitly recognize that, if a foreign head of
state or government or member of a government, or even a member
of parliament, is on Canadian territory and could be brought to
trial, this person would not be able to rely on immunity before
the courts.
To make this clear, we could give the example of General
Pinochet who, if he were on Canadian territory, could be brought
to trial, but could perhaps claim some immunity before our
courts if our legislation were not clear enough.
During the work of the committee, experts from the Department of
Foreign Affairs told us that the precedents set by the judiciary
committee of the privy council in London that examined the case
of Mr. Pinochet had deprived General Pinochet of his immunity.
Consequently, these precedents could be applied here. The common
law that resulted from these precedents could be applied by our
courts and deprive someone such as General Pinochet or someone
in a similar situation of his immunity.
What the Bloc Quebecois would have wished for and still wishes
for is for these precedents set by the judiciary committee of
the Privy Council to be included in the bill.
1050
This is why we are proposing subclause 11.1, which would clearly
say that an accused who formerly occupied a position as a head
of state or government, member of a government or parliament,
elected representative or government official and who, at the
time of the proceedings, no longer occupies that position, may
not rely on immunities or special procedural rules that may
attach, by virtue of statute law or common law, to the official
capacity of the person.
Such a provision would be useful because it would provide for
more certainty; we would be absolutely sure that individuals
suspected of having committed serious crimes, such as crimes
against humanity, war crimes or genocide, could not obtain
immunity before our courts. It would enshrine the common law in
the statutes of Canada and would allow courts to strip those
individuals of their immunity in order to punish crimes that
should be punished.
We have proposed other amendments that should improve this bill,
including a provision clearly stating that this act relates to
the discharge of Canada's obligations under the Rome Statute.
In conclusion, I would like to say how important it is to
sustain the effort to ensure rapid implementation of the Rome
Statute.
The adoption of the Rome Statute in 1998 by the
Conference of Plenipotentiaries was a turning point in the
history of humanity. We are collectively trying to establish an
institution that would allow nations and international
institutions to truly punish international crimes.
We already have an institution. All we need now is to adopt and
ratify the treaties, pass the implementing legislation, as we
are doing today, and that dream will become reality.
Finally, I would like to pay tribute to someone who is no longer
with us, Justice Jules Deschênes, who devoted part of his life
to these issues. A major report was drafted by the Commission of
Inquiry on War Criminals, which he presided.
I want to pay tribute to Justice Deschênes and to thank him and
his family for his contribution to this debate, which he would
have been proud to witness today.
[English]
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Madam Speaker, I am
pleased to rise to speak to this group of motions. Generally
speaking we would be supportive of this group of motions,
although we find that Motion No. 5 could perhaps be worded a
little better. Generally speaking we agree with the intent of
that motion.
As I mentioned earlier, the whole bill is one that is extremely
important. Even though it was in July 1998 that the nations
agreed to this international criminal court, we realize that the
UN General Assembly recognized the need for an international
criminal court as early as 1948 in the aftermath of the second
world war and the subsequent Nuremberg and Tokyo trials. The
U.S., France, Russia and China have argued for a court with
circumscribed powers. A Canadian led group of like minded
nations supported a strong international criminal court,
including the U.K., Croatia, Singapore and Egypt.
When we look at home at how this concept has developed, we
realize that the international criminal court and Bill C-19 do
not really have a high profile in Canada. We have to elevate
that profile and bring to people's attention how important this
kind of process is. The limited opposition has been focused on
minor issues without putting forward the question of the
principle of the court. That is a very important principle that
has to be looked at.
Within the non-governmental organization community we know that
the International Centre for Human Rights and Democratic
Development has established a wide network of supporters in
Canada and internationally, including groups such as Amnesty
International, the U.S. based Lawyers Committee for Human Rights,
Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, Human Rights Watch and
Human Rights Internet. Certainly our party is supportive of the
idea of this court.
1055
As I said earlier, we have to look at a broader aspect when we
deal with the whole issue of war crimes. One very serious issue
that is taking place right now, and if it were to unfold we could
certainly say it would lay the groundwork for further war and war
crimes, is the national missile defence system which the United
States is proposing.
Just recently the President of the United States journeyed to
Russia to try to convince the Russian president and the Russian
Duma that his system was something they should be unconcerned
about and that they should perhaps support. We realize that
mission fell flat on its face and now we notice that the Russian
president has travelled to North Korea to try to sort out
questions and concerns around that whole issue with the North
Koreans.
This is a very serious issue. It is something that ties into
the topic that we are looking at today when we talk about war and
war crimes. Right now, if we look seriously at the issue, Canada
could be a leader in this whole area. We could perhaps be
calling for a solution to the problem the U.S. feels it faces and
would give rise to the need for such a national missile defence
system and the whole question of ballistic missiles.
We should be leading the fight to call for an international ban
on test missile flights. The whole issue of missiles could be
tackled from a different perspective, a preventive perspective,
in the same way as we did with land mines. We could be the
leaders in dealing with the issue in a proactive, preventive way
as opposed to the reactionary way in which the U.S. is dealing
with it that is tending to lead to arms augmentation and more
build-up rather than disarmament.
I just tie that into the issue because it is very important. We
know the outcome of any further activity in that area could
certainly lead to many serious cases of war crimes being looked
at.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
PEOPLE SMUGGLING
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, the new slave trade being carried out by people
smuggling rings is a heinous and despicable crime. People are
forced into lives of prostitution, into the drug trade and into
sweatshops. It is critical that people smuggling is dealt with
firmly and quickly.
Let us have a look at the government's record on this issue. Ten
months after the first boat arrived less than 25% of the cases
have been finalized. More than 50% of the 600 who came by boat
are still in detention. More than 25% of the 600 have just
disappeared. These 600 people are only the tip of the iceberg
when it comes to people who come to Canada with the aid of people
smugglers.
The government has failed the victims of this new slave trade.
What a blotch on Canadian history. The government has a lot to
answer for when it comes to its inaction on the serious problem
of people smuggling and the new slave trade.
* * *
SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH
Ms. Judy Sgro (York West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise in
the House today to mention two important initiatives taken by the
government in my riding of York West.
Just recently York University received a $14,000 grant under the
northern scientific training program. Since its inception in
1961 this training program has played a key role in supporting
the development of scientific expertise in northern research and
in promoting the vital and growing role of Canadian universities
in this field. Without this support, many of these initiatives
would be very difficult to promote.
The second initiative is part of the Canadian Foundation for
Innovation, which is an $11.8 million investment aimed at
strengthening the research capacity of 28 Canadian universities.
Under the new opportunities fund, York University will be able to
finance a new scientific research facility.
York University and its students are an integral part of my
riding. I am very glad to see that the government recognizes the
vital importance of funding such research initiatives.
* * *
HELMUT OBERLANDER
Mrs. Karen Redman (Kitchener Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
over the past few months friends and family of Mr. Helmut
Oberlander have been working diligently on his behalf.
1100
They have collected hundreds of petitions containing 12,000
signatures from across the country. My office has received
numerous petitions with approximately 700 signatures from the
residents of Kitchener—Waterloo.
The petitioners say that whereas Helmut Oberlander has been
totally exonerated by the federal court of any criminal activity
or war crimes, directly or indirectly in the second world war;
and whereas finding of fault with the immigration process should
not form the basis for citizenship revocation and deportation;
and whereas Mr. Oberlander has been a good citizen of Canada and
a contributing member of the community for over 40 years, the
petitioners call upon the federal government not to revoke the
citizenship or deport Helmut Oberlander of Waterloo.
* * *
CFB SHILO
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, the defence department has been undertaking a land
base study in Manitoba. The future of CFB Shilo in Manitoba is
at stake.
Although several options were presented to the ministry, we have
not heard the outcome of those discussions.
There is rumour of the rural based training facility being shut
down. The training facility at CFB Shilo is second to none.
Abandoning these facilities, which were recently upgraded at the
expense of the public purse, does not make sense. I believe
moving jobs from Shilo would be another attack on the rural
culture of Canada.
Officials from CFB Shilo near my riding want to know what the
future holds for their base. If all factors being considered in
this study are correct, then I see no reason why CFB Shilo, a key
piece of Canadian military history, cannot remain operational.
Considering the ministry has the final business case on the
Manitoba study, I would urge the minister to unveil the action
plan regarding the future of CFB Shilo and the future of this
military base in Manitoba.
* * *
CADETS IN CANADA
Mr. Ivan Grose (Oshawa, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, today I am
going to reveal one of Canada's best kept secrets. For those of
you who despair of the behaviour of our youth, I have good news.
This being spring in Canada, that means cadet inspection time.
Although I am a director of the Air Cadet League of Canada and
past member of the RCAF, all cadet corps, land, sea and air
invite me to attend their annual inspections. To see these well
turned out young men and women with their pressed uniforms, neat
hair, shined shoes and pride in themselves, their country and
units, is to restore confidence in the future leaders of our
country.
These young people have no idea what the Young Offenders Act is
all about. To the parents of these young people, I ask you to
share my pride in them. Give them a hug and tell them you are
proud of them. I ask all members of the House to join with me in
a heartfelt “well done”.
* * *
[Translation]
THE ENVIRONMENT
Mr. Serge Cardin (Sherbrooke, BQ): Mr. Speaker, our society must
face many environmental problems such as smog and climate
changes. After playing a key role during the Earth Summit held
in Rio in 1992, the Canadian government's attitude progressively
deteriorated as regards these challenges.
In Cartagena, in February 1999, Canada, along with four other
states, opposed the adoption of a strict biosafety protocol. The
same thing happened at a meeting held in January, and again in
Nairobi, a few days ago.
A UN spokesperson even said that it was the first time in 20
years that environmental negotiations led to such a complete
rout.
In this environment week, it is deplorable that Canada refuses
to sign that protocol, which would establish a set of
international rules to regulate the transborder movement of
living genetically modified organisms.
Once again, the nice rhetoric of the Minister of the Environment
does not result in concrete action.
* * *
[English]
ORGANIZATION OF AMERICAN STATES MINISTERS' CONFERENCE
Mr. Rick Limoges (Windsor—St. Clair, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
on behalf of all Canadians the Windsor community hosted a very
successful Organization of American States Ministers' Conference
from June 4 to 6, 2000.
A thousand volunteers under the able direction of an outstanding
business and community leader, Mr. Tom Joy, helped to welcome
delegates from the entire hemisphere. The conference provided an
opportunity for Canada to advance proposals for improving human
rights and strengthening democracy in countries that are truly in
need of our leadership and support.
I offer special thanks to Tom Joy, chair of the Windsor host
committee, and all the volunteers who contributed to this
successful event.
* * *
MUNICIPALITIES
Mr. Darrel Stinson (Okanagan—Shuswap, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, municipalities are the level of government closest
to home. City officials hear from local people every day and
know whether their city needs essentials like upgrades to water
systems or sewage treatment facilities.
However, the latest Statistics Canada report revealed Ottawa had
an $11.3 billion surplus while municipalities slipped back into
deficits. It is time for this government to respect Canada's
constitution in its tax policies, not just in words.
1105
Ottawa must quickly reduce its share of the tax pie so the
endangered taxpayers can afford to let their city proceed with
essential infrastructure rather than filtering their tax dollars
through Ottawa first, just so Liberals can look generous when
they give a small fraction back.
The Canadian Alliance supports infrastructure spending. However,
we also recognize that federal tax cuts are needed so that these
local decisions can once again be left to the discretion of local
taxpayers and their city council rather than being used as make
work programs or political pork barrelling.
* * *
EMPLOYMENT
Ms. Sophia Leung (Vancouver Kingsway, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
over two million new jobs have been created since the Liberal
government took office in 1993. What a record.
The employment rate was 6.6% in May, the lowest since March
1976. In one year employment has grown by over 400,000 jobs. In
fact, employment rose in every category including employment of
women and youth.
I hope the opposition can handle such good news on a Friday.
* * *
SERGEANT TOMMY PRINCE
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
Sergeant Tommy Prince was Canada's most decorated aboriginal
soldier. Today his name lives on in his home community of
Winnipeg with the creation of Canada's only aboriginal cadet
corps, the 553 Sergeant Tommy Prince Royal Canadian Army Cadet
Corps.
Winnipeg Centre is a troubled community in many ways. Aboriginal
youth in the core area often grow up exposed to crime and
violence. Brutal murders have taken place just feet away from
where the 553 held its inaugural parade, murders where the
victims and the murderers were no older than the young cadets who
marched so proudly before us.
It is heartening that these young people can now develop a sense
of belonging in their cadet corps rather than less healthy
choices that could result in crime, prison or worse.
Congratulations to Donald Mackie, CD, for his tireless efforts
in bringing the 553 to fruition; Mr. Garry Grouette, president of
the Central Community Centre; and, the National Aboriginal
Veterans Association for its support.
* * *
[Translation]
CANADIAN ECONOMY
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would
be remiss if I did not mention the economic news that we
received this morning. Today's economic update speaks volumes
about the merits of the federal government's policies.
Since this government took office, in 1993, over two million
jobs have been created in Canada. This is proof that the economy
is thriving.
According to the figures released by Statistics Canada this
morning, the unemployment rate is at its lowest in over two
decades, at 6.5%, which is two tenths of a point lower than in
May. This is very good news.
It shows that the policies to promote investments and the
pursuit of sound management are working well, with the result
that we have a strong economy right across the country.
I would be remiss if I did not mention in particular the
unemployment rate in Ottawa's national capital region, which is
at 5.1%. Such a rate should give hope to all those who are
looking for work. Jobs are being created. Let us not lose hope.
* * *
[English]
CANADA GAZETTE
Ms. Carolyn Parrish (Mississauga Centre, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to inform the House that the Canada
Gazette Parts I and II are now available on the Internet in a
alternate format which makes it accessible to persons with
disabilities.
The Department of Public Works and Government Services is
committed to providing all Canadians with equal access to
Government of Canada information.
As the Government of Canada moves toward connecting Canadians
on-line, the Canada Gazette on the Internet will play an
important role in enabling more Canadians to be part of the
democratic process by commenting on the proposed regulations
published in the Canada Gazette.
This initiative reflects the federal government's commitment to
work with other governments, the private and voluntary sectors
and all citizens to build communities in which Canadians with
disabilities are fully included.
The Canada Gazette is available on the Government of
Canada website at www.canada.gc.ca.
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Jean Dubé (Madawaska—Restigouche, PC): Mr. Speaker, on behalf
of the people of Madawaska—Restigouche, whom I have the honour of
representing here in the House, I want to express the
frustration we feel with regard to the changes that were made to
the employment insurance map for that region.
People will have to work at least 595 hours, instead of the 425
hours currently required, to be eligible for benefits, for which
they are still paying astronomically high premiums.
1110
Moreover, these same people will be entitled to only 18 weeks of
benefits, compared to 28 weeks as is currently the case. And all
that while there is a $30 billion surplus in the EI fund.
These changes do not take into account the social and economic
reality of the Madawaska region. A large percentage of the jobs
in our region are seasonal, whether it be in forestry,
agriculture, construction or tourism.
I call upon the Minister of Human Resources Development to
review the current proposal and to join the Madawaska region
with the economic region of Restigouche-Albert.
* * *
[English]
HEALTH
Mr. Richard M. Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley,
Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, here is a wish list for the
people of the Prince George: three anaesthetists, two orthopaedic
surgeons, two radiologists, one plastic surgeon and ten general
practitioners. The reason for this list is because over the last
year and a half the Prince George Regional Hospital, which serves
north central B.C., has lost all these health care professionals.
To say that we have a crisis at the Prince George Regional
Hospital is indeed an understatement, and the blame for this
crisis lies directly at the feet of this Minister of Health and
this Liberal government which has gutted the health care system.
While the Minister of Health stands in the House every day and
claims that Canada's health care system is so important to him,
people all across Canada and in my riding who need critical
health care are asking “Why does he not just recognize that
there is a crisis in health care in Canada?”
I say to the government and to the health minister that if they
really care about the state of health care in this country, they
should stop talking about it and fix it.
* * *
FISHERIES
Mr. Mark Muise (West Nova, PC): Mr. Speaker, many
fishermen in my riding have expressed concern that the federal
minister of fisheries has excluded them from the negotiation
process with native fishermen.
Like everyone else in the House, they heard the minister
continually mention that there needed to be a negotiated
settlement to address the Marshall decision and that it would
require participation by all stakeholders.
Well non-native fishermen have been excluded from discussions,
discussions that will have a direct impact on their livelihoods.
They have heard about licences, boats and gear being provided to
the natives but have no details about the extent of their use.
They are concerned that the boats that were provided to the
aboriginal communities could be used to expand the controversial
summer food fishery.
Why does the minister not share the same concerns? Has he taken
appropriate steps to prevent such a situation, and, if so, could he
please tell us what they are?
* * *
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Rick Laliberte (Churchill River, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I
rise today to bring to light Canada's aboriginal veterans, an
issue of grave importance that requires an honourable resolution
of recognizing our mistreatment and disrespect of returning
veterans.
The aboriginal veterans of first nations, Métis and Inuit
ancestry were amongst the first to volunteer and contribute to
defend our freedoms and our nation.
Canada must recognize the unfair treatment of past governments
disallowing their qualifications to the same benefits and
privileges of returning veterans from these horrible conflicts
and engagements.
A recent tour of Holland demonstrated the emotional gratitude
that our liberated allies extended toward our visiting veterans
in these homelands where peace, freedom and democracy are the
gifts and the legacies that all people appreciate.
Let us salute our veterans with respect and lay to rest all the
inequities and injustices that tarnish the glory and honour that
bestows a warrior. We must extend to all our heroes, our
brothers and sisters in arms, a gesture of our appreciation and
recognition of their rightful place in our history.
* * *
[Translation]
GREENHOUSE GASES
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
federal-provincial meeting of environment ministers just ended.
In this Environment Week, we must push the federal government on
the issue of greenhouse gas emissions.
The Liberal government's record on the smog issue and, more
generally, on the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions, has
been branded as disastrous by the commissioner for the
environment and for sustainable development. Emissions have
increased considerably, and there is no sign of an eventual
improvement in the quality of the air we breathe.
Quebec's record on this issue is clearly better, mainly because
of its energy choices. The federal government must now do its
share and take its responsibilities. To distribute the efforts
in the fight against pollution, the development of a strategy
which would take into account, in a fair manner, each province's
record in this area is essential.
The time has come for the federal government to meet its
commitments and to make sustainable development a true priority.
* * *
1115
[English]
ALL SAINTS' ANGLICAN CHURCH
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, along with people of faith around the world, the
congregation of All Saints' Anglican Church in Westboro has
dedicated itself to the message of Jubilee, the renewal every 50
years of a society of love and justice.
The people of All Saints have given me a petition to present to
the government, to honour the agreement it made in Beijing, to
eliminate all forms of discrimination against women at all stages
of life, to remove obstacles to active women's participation in
all spheres of public and private life, and to promote social
development that recognizes empowering the poor, particularly
women living in poverty.
The people of All Saints calls on the government to acknowledge
both its pledges in Beijing and at the world summit in Copenhagen
for social development, and to create a better society for all
Canadians.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
HEALTH
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, today the provinces and territories
are releasing a unanimous report on federal health care spending.
We have received a copy of the report and it shows that the
federal government has virtually turned its back on its
responsibility to fund health care.
While the minister uses tax points to give the illusion of
larger federal spending, in realty federal per capita spending
has fallen 27% since this government came to power.
Why is the health care of Canadians such a low priority to the
government?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the fact is that
the transfers to the provinces today are at an all time high.
That means we have put our money where our mouth is.
We believe that health care is a priority. We have also said
that we want to sit down with the provinces and work out an
agreement on the fundamental nature of how to protect the Canada
Health Act. Our money will be there in addition to what we have
already done.
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, let us talk about some facts. This
year Canadians uncovered a black hole of mismanagement into which
billions of federal dollars are poured every year.
While federal spending on grants and contributions will reach
$17 billion this year, total spending on health and social
transfers will only be $15.5 billion. That is more spent on
boondoggles than on hospital beds.
Why does the federal government choose to spend more on grants
and contributions than it does on the health care of Canadians?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let us look at
our transfers to the provinces: over $30 billion in terms of the
CHST and the tax points that go with it; and ,in addition, we
have about $10 billion in equalization payments that go to the
provinces and that can be dedicated to health care.
Our transfers for health care to the provinces are at an all
time high. We have said that we will increase them when we can
get an agreement to protect the Canada Health Act. That is our
commitment to health care.
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, let us talk about this government's
disgraceful legacy on the issue of health care.
When medicare started the federal government picked up half the
cost of health care; that was 50 cents on every dollar. It now
picks up just 10.2 cents of every health care dollar spent.
This government has a bigger surplus than it has ever had.
Canadians are more worried about health care than they have ever
been in the past. They want a simple answer to a very simple
question: When is this minister going to contribute his fair
share to health care?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let us look at
the breakdown of how our transfers apply. When we include the
tax points, which the provinces have not said they want to give
back to us, we are funding fully 31% of all publicly provided
health care in Canada.
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, it is more like a meltdown, what is happening on the
other side.
The provincial territorial report to be released today is
unanimous. Every province agrees that the federal government has
failed to live up to its responsibilities to fund health care.
I will quote from the report. It says:
A long-term look at spending on health care reveals a federal
government withdrawing from its partnership with the provinces
and territories.
1120
While the government is planning to buy the next election with
health care dollars, there are 200,000 Canadians on waiting lists
who need help now.
Will the minister properly address the funding issue today and
deal with it in a reasonable fashion instead of waiting until the
next election?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let us just look
at the numbers.
The CHST is $31 billion. If we go back to the old formula of
54% of that going for health, that is about $17 billion. In
addition the federal government spends another $3 billion itself
on health care, which brings our expenditure up to $20 billion
out of the $64 billion which is spent every year by governments
on health care in Canada.
That is—
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. member for
Peace River.
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I notice that the health minister sits in his chair and
does not answer while he lets the number cruncher over there do
it for him.
The provinces want to meet with the federal government next week
to discuss this issue and this report. We have learned that the
federal government has reserved rooms in Vancouver for June 15
and 16 just in case it changes its mind.
Will the minister commit today to attend this meeting, or will
he dodge it like he does his responsibility to health care?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
let me first of all say that we welcome the report which is to be
delivered today from the provinces and territories. I have not
yet seen it but I hope very much that it is a constructive
contribution to a dialogue we are having with the provinces on
health care and its funding into the future.
As Minister of Health I believe strongly that there should and
must be more federal money in health care. All we ask is that it
go to support the public health care system, not to fund tax cuts
in Ontario. We ask that it go to make the changes that are
needed to make it a truly sustainable health care system. I look
forward to talking about those plans with my counterparts in the
provinces.
* * *
[Translation]
PARENTAL LEAVE
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, this
week the Prime Minister has proven two things to us as far as
parental insurance is concerned. First, that his objective is
not to respond to the present needs of young families but rather
to raise the profile of his government. Second, that he is
woefully ignorant of developments in Quebec's parental insurance
project when he states that the federal government is in the
lead role in this matter.
Is the Prime Minister aware that the parental insurance project
was announced by the Government of Quebec as far back as
February 1996 as the third component of its family policy?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is
obvious that the federal government is the leader as far as
parental leave is concerned, and has been for some time. It is
fully entitled to broaden this system in the interest of all
Canadians. If the hon. member is serious about this, I wonder
why she does not support our efforts for the entire population.
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
government is clearly determined not to understand something
that is, after all, simple. The decision by Quebec dates back
to February 1996 and led to a consensus at the November 1996
economic summit.
Right from the start, right from February 1997, Quebec has
attempted to negotiate the mechanisms of this program with
Ottawa. Despite Quebec's offer on several occasions to resume
negotiations, nothing has yet come of it.
What is holding back the government from merely showing a bit of
open-mindedness, from sitting down at the table and negotiating
in this matter?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it
is obvious that the hon. member does not possess the facts.
In 1997, the PQ government chose to walk away from the
negotiating table with the federal government, which is one more
reason why we decided to move ahead in the interest of all
Canadians.
If the separatist PQ government wants to do anything more, it is
perfectly entitled to do so.
Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
parental insurance is a cohesive element of the family policy
that has been developed in Quebec over the past 20 years. The
Quebec society deems it essential to support all young families.
In spite of the Quebec government's offer, reiterated today by
minister Marois to the Minister of Human Resources Development,
the government persists in its refusal.
What will it take for the Prime Minister to adopt an attitude
that will allow us to meet the current needs of all young
families?
1125
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this
is the reason why, in the throne speech and in the budget
speech, we announced our intention to broaden the scope of
parental leave.
We want to work in the best interests of poor families and of
all families in Quebec and across the country. Again, I wonder
why the Bloc Quebecois is not interested in supporting our
serious efforts to help all Canadian families.
Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
the issue of parental insurance has been the subject of
discussions in Quebec since February 1996. Having received
support at the November 1996 economic summit, Quebec has been
trying to negotiate such a program with Ottawa since 1997.
Instead of giving a positive reply to that request to negotiate,
the federal government, in its September 1999 throne speech and
its February 2000 budget, did not hesitate to propose a measure
that willfully excludes thousands of young families from its
program.
How can the government justify its decision to block a process
that has the support of all Quebecers and to merely propose an
incomplete, unfair and unsatisfactory measure?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we
did not block any program. If something is unfair, it is the
hon. member's question; it is unfair and it is not based on
facts, because we work for all families, including young
families and poor families.
* * *
[English]
GASOLINE PRICES
Mr. John Solomon (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, rising energy costs are responsible for half the hike in
inflation. Consumers are being gouged twice, once for their
gasoline and once for everything else, thanks to inflation.
The average price of gas in Canada is at a new record of 75.3
cents a litre. According to StatsCan, people now spend more on
energy costs and their cars and transportation than they do on
food, clothing and shoes combined.
In view of this threat to inflation, will the government
consider giving consumers in Canada a gas tax holiday this
summer? If not, what exactly is its action plan to help
consumers cope with high gas prices?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
why has the hon. member not brought this message and request to
the attention of his provincial government? It is clear that the
provincial governments have the authority to regulate gasoline
prices at the retail level in times like these. Why is he
remaining silent and not going after his own provincial
government?
Mr. John Solomon (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, Canadians do not buy excuses from the oil companies and
they are sick and tired of Liberals passing the buck.
There has to be a time when government stands up and protects
consumers from price gouging. The government has been given
numerous suggestions. Today I give it another one. How about a
federal energy price commission to regulate gas prices at the
wholesale level?
Will the government support the establishment of an energy price
commission at the federal level and if not, just what action will
it take to protect consumers from gouging at the pumps?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the provinces
now have the power to regulate the price of gasoline. That is
within provincial jurisdiction. We believe that is where the
legislative competence lies.
* * *
FISHERIES
Mr. Mark Muise (West Nova, PC): Mr. Speaker, my question
is for the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans. Is he concerned
that boats he has provided to the aboriginal communities as part
of his solution to the Marshall decision could be used to expand
the controversial food fishery? What steps has he taken to
ensure that this does not happen?
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of the Environment, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, the issue of the purchase of boats and turning boats
over to people who are new entrants in the fishery obviously has
some aspects which are of concern. We are watching the problem
closely. We want to make sure that the boats that will be used
will be used for licensed activity, not illegal activity. I can
assure the hon. gentleman that this issue is a matter which has
the close attention of the department.
Mr. Mark Muise (West Nova, PC): Mr. Speaker, it has been
said that the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans is prepared to
offer Burnt Church licences for other fish species if they would
sign an agreement with the government.
Can the minister confirm whether this is true? Would such an
agreement be in line with agreements signed with other bands? If
not, does the minister not have an obligation to treat all bands
equally?
1130
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of the Environment, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, obviously the government wants to treat all bands
equally. That is why we are trying to get agreements with all
bands.
I am happy to report to the House that as of May 30, 18
agreements have been signed with first nations. The government
has five more agreements in principle with other first nations
and we hope that there will be signatures soon. I believe there
has been good progress in the negotiations. I am certainly
hopeful that there will be agreement overall in due course.
* * *
AIRLINE INDUSTRY
Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the government was
extremely indignant when the official opposition raised concerns
about a potential strike at Air Canada. The parliamentary
secretary stated that my concern was premature because in her
words, “there will be a negotiated settlement.”
If the government is so confident that there will be a
negotiated settlement, why at the very moment when it was
criticizing the opposition for raising this issue the government
was in fact drafting legislation to block a strike?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the premise of the hon. member's question is wrong. She
should not be raising suggestions which could inhibit the parties
in reaching an early settlement through collective bargaining.
Why does she not act constructively in this matter for a change?
Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley,
Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, this is just another example
of the government's duplicity. The Liberals say one thing for
public consumption and do the exact opposite behind closed doors.
Government ministers can utilize the fleet of Challenger jets
for their air travel but the average Canadian cannot. The public
deserves to have an answer. Will the government permit a labour
dispute at Air Canada to disrupt the travel plans of Canadians
this summer?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member should withdraw her unjustified
complaint of duplicity. It is unparliamentary. It is unworthy
of her. If she is serious as a parliamentarian and if she has
any sense of parliamentary ethics at all, she had better get up
and withdraw that, otherwise she will stand condemned of being
the very type of person she wrongfully alleges that government
ministers are.
The government wants to see a negotiated settlement. We look
forward to a negotiated settlement and continued operations of
the airline system for all Canadians.
I do not know why the hon. member is trying to slander other
members of parliament. It does not help us in these efforts.
* * *
[Translation]
CANADA DAY
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I too would
like to put a simple question to the government, and I hope the
Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Canadian Heritage will
understand me correctly.
How much money is the federal government planning to spend
outside Quebec on Canada Day celebrations?
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we no longer need a
calendar to know when Canada Day is. Since the Bloc Quebecois
has been in the House, every year it is the same old story,
questioning the fact that Canadians in every province of this
country want to celebrate their belonging to this country.
This is what we do, and we will keep on doing it with pride.
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I believe it
is important for the public to know why the government is
keeping from us a piece of information which seems to me rather
innocuous. Is it a state secret or does it threaten national
defence?
Could it be that the minister asked her colleague responsible
for the CIO to find new funds for her after giving all of her $5
million to Quebec? Or is it in fact because Canada Day is only
celebrated in Quebec?
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, obviously, my hon.
colleague does not listen to the news. Yesterday, the National
Capital Commission announced its plans to celebrate Canada Day
here, in Ottawa, on July 1.
I invite every Canadian, from every province and territory, who
can join us to come here on July 1 to celebrate with us the
birthday of the greatest country in the world.
* * *
[English]
IMMIGRATION
Mr. Chuck Cadman (Surrey North, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, it has been a year now since hundreds of migrants
arrived in rusting hulks off the west coast. Some have been
returned, many have disappeared and many remain in detention.
Recently seven escaped in Prince George. They fled into thick
bush swarming with mosquitoes and prowled by bears where there is
little, if any, food. Fortunately they were recaptured before
they could come to any harm.
1135
The government's refugee policy is a sham. It is a tremendous
burden on taxpayers and it is so slow the claimants will put
their own lives at risk rather than wait any longer. When will
the minister speed up the process and make it fair for everybody?
Hon. Elinor Caplan (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member opposite for
the question. With the co-operation of the member, his critic
and his party, Bill C-31 which is presently before a standing
committee will be passed so that we can improve the refugee
determination system.
We all agree that it needs to be faster. We want to make it
faster but keep it fair. With the support of the hon. member's
party, Bill C-31 will achieve that goal.
Mr. Chuck Cadman (Surrey North, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, last week it was learned that about 30 juveniles who
arrived on those boats and were placed in foster homes rather
than detained have just plain disappeared. Some had gone AWOL
before but instead of being detained when they were caught, they
were just returned to the foster homes.
Authorities surmise that those who have now disappeared have
made their way into the United States. Who knows what kind of
nightmares their lives will become: crime, prostitution and
sweatshop slaves.
How can the minister defend policies that contribute to the
misery of young lives?
Hon. Elinor Caplan (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the whole issue of the arrival of minors
and the international obligations we have to detain only as a
last resort is of great concern given the fact that we know we
are dealing in a shared jurisdiction.
Most of the minors who came last summer were not detained; they
were handed over to the rightful jurisdiction of the provinces.
We know that group homes are not secure. In some provinces the
decision has been made to detain minors because of fear of
flight.
We are reviewing our entire policy as it relates to detention of
minors with a view to doing not only what is in the best interest
of the child, but ensuring that we are living up to our
international obligations.
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Ghislain Fournier (Manicouagan, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in the
proposed reform of the employment insurance plan, the North
Shore will be the most heavily penalized area.
Whereas the effective unemployment rate stands at 17.2%, it will
be set à 12% by HRDC, and the maximum number of weeks of
benefits will drop from 32 to 24.
Can the minister explain to the people in the North Shore area
how this is going to meet the needs of thousands of workers who
will be excluded from the EI program?
[English]
Ms. Bonnie Brown (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Human Resources Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the member
opposite is referring to the plight of seasonal workers on the
north shore and the particular problems that group presents to
us. That is why the minister is working with the council of
labour market ministers with particular focus on joint
programming that will assist this particular group.
We are also learning more about their plight through the
monitoring and assessment report which we bring forward on a
regular basis. Decisions will be made about the future and what
we can do to help these people in concert with the provinces.
[Translation]
Mr. Ghislain Fournier (Manicouagan, BQ): Mr. Speaker, people in
my area are going to fight this. On June 5, more than 500
citizens of the North Shore have demonstrated against this
reform, and they have asked to meet with the minister.
When is she going to meet with them?
[English]
Ms. Bonnie Brown (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Human Resources Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, work is
ongoing on this file.
As far as unemployment is concerned, it is my great pleasure to
share with the House the fact that the unemployment figures are
at their best in 24 years at 6.6%. The unemployment figures for
women are at their best in 25 years at 5.4%. Even the stubbornly
high rate of unemployment for youth has dropped 2.5% in the last
year. This is good news.
* * *
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Lee Morrison (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister
responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board.
Bill C-34, an act to amend the Canada Transportation Act, is
linked to a memorandum of understanding between the wheat board
and the minister responsible, in other words, an agreement
between the minister and the minister.
The minister clearly told the standing committee that the MOU
was prepared in consultation with stakeholders, but the grain
companies, the railways and farm organizations that appeared have
all denied this. Just who did the minister consult?
1140
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I know for a fact, because I was present
for a number of those meetings with the minister in charge of the
wheat board and the Minister of Transport, that those
negotiations did take place with all those the hon. member just
named.
Mr. Lee Morrison (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I take it then that the Minister of
Agriculture and Agri-Food is saying that all the people who
appeared before us were liars.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I do not know that
it is appropriate for a member to imply motive to another member
using a word which is clearly unparliamentary. I would ask the
hon. member for Cypress Hills—Grasslands to please withdraw the
word liar and proceed with the question.
Mr. Lee Morrison: Will the minister withdraw his remarks
about the witnesses?
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. member for
Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel.
* * *
[Translation]
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT CANADA
Mr. Maurice Dumas (Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
we have learned that elderly citizens have been the victims of
administrative decisions by HRDC which are utterly unfair and
unacceptable. The department went as far as to withdraw amounts
from their bank accounts without their knowledge to recover
overpayments.
Should the Minister of Human Resources Development not be
ashamed of herself for allowing this harassment of ordinary
citizens and the withdrawing of money from their accounts, when
she is unable to recover millions of dollars in grants and to
produce the invoices of Placeteco, which has misappropriated
more that $1 million?
[English]
Ms. Bonnie Brown (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Human Resources Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I addressed
this question yesterday. It is true that there was a mistake
made by an employee and the situation has now been corrected.
Verbal and written apologies have been given to the family. We
understand that the family has accepted these apologies. We have
asked the official to ensure that the situation does not happen
again.
* * *
RURAL DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Larry McCormick (Hastings—Frontenac—Lennox and
Addington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, because rural communities in
my riding and across Canada are asking what our government has
done recently for rural Canada, could the Secretary of State for
Rural Development please update the House on what recent actions
the federal government has undertaken to benefit agricultural
rural communities?
Hon. Andy Mitchell (Secretary of State (Rural
Development)(Federal Economic Development Initiative for Northern
Ontario), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the government believes that
rural development needs to be a bottom up and not a top down
driven process. The communities themselves must establish their
priorities and establish the strategies to pursue community
development.
The federal government acts as a means to provide a set of tools
for these communities. I was pleased to announce, along with my
colleague on May 25, the Canadian agricultural rural communities
initiative which will provide $9.3 million to rural communities
to assist them with community development. It is a great example
of the bottom up approach to community development.
* * *
THE ECONOMY
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker,
it seems that the government is engaging in a pre-emptive strike
of misinformation about our plan 17. It is really unfortunate
because the Minister of Finance is stating things publicly that
misrepresent what the plan actually says.
For example, he implied that government revenues would go down
$20 billion under our plan. The truth is that over five years,
while reducing the tax rates to 17%, government revenue would
increase every year. Where does the Minister of Finance get his
numbers from?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am really
pleased that the hon. member has given me a chance to talk about
their flat tax.
Let us hear from others: “The Liberals will tear this flat tax
apart, telling everyone it is just a tax break for the rich, and
it is”. That was Jim Silye, former Reform MP.
“In principle the single tax rate is a bad idea. It is a wise
and long established principle that someone lucky enough to reach
the $100,000 mark of income should pay a few more pennies of that
dollar in tax than the person who only manages to reach
$35,000”. That is from the Edmonton Journal.
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, it seems that some correctly predicted that the Liberal
Party would be duplicitous about the facts in this statement.
1145
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. member for
Elk Island did not refer to a specific minister and he did not
refer to a specific member. He is quite in order.
Mr. Ken Epp: Mr. Speaker, let me put the facts on the
table. Our plan has the approval of no less than economist
Robert Mundell, a Nobel prize winner, who said that it was a very
good and workable plan. Furthermore, we ran the econometric
model, the same model the finance minister uses with his plan to
parliament, WEFA—
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. secretary
of state.
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, of course it
will cost us a fortune and what it will do is really hurt the
middle class and benefit unfairly the very rich.
Let me quote: “I think Canadians have become used to a
progressive tax system where the higher your income, the higher
the rate of tax you pay. There are certain basic expenses of
life one has to go through and it is a lot easier to do it at
$250,000 than $50,000. From that perspective a flat tax is
inequitable. It is not progressive”. Who said that? Ernie
Eves.
* * *
HEALTH
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday the U.S. announced plans to phase out Dursban, a widely
used household pesticide, because it is a known threat to
children's health. The government would rather wait and hope the
chemical company that makes millions in sales will volunteer to
stop production on its own accord.
Does the Minister of Health not think Canadian children deserve
the same kind of protection from their government as the U.S. has
given to its children?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
American and Canadian authorities are working closely together in
this regard. The American withdrawal from the market is
voluntary and has been negotiated with the company.
We were negotiating the same agreement with the manufacturer in
Canada. It was in place until two days ago when the manufacturer
reneged on it. As a result, we are to impose unilaterally, using
our authority as a government, that the product come off the
market. When we finish the scientific work to uphold that
approach that is the step we will take to protect the health of
all Canadians and particularly children.
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I
thank the minister for his answer. It sounds like that is a very
positive move.
I would indicate that the city of Halifax is planning to assist
its children to live in a healthy, safe community by looking at a
bylaw which hopefully will be passed to ban the use of pesticides
near playgrounds, hospitals and sources of drinking water.
Last month the House of Commons environment committee asked for
a phase-out of cosmetic use. The minister's own party policy is
to ban cosmetic use of pesticides. Has the minister any further
plans to reduce any chemicals other than this one?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
we will do what is necessary to protect the health of Canadians
and particularly children.
Let me emphasize to the member that the government has
discretionary power under the act. As in the case of the product
which the member mentioned in his first question, where there is
science to indicate that the products are a threat to the health
of Canadians we will act to get them off the market.
* * *
[Translation]
PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES
Mr. Jean Dubé (Madawaska—Restigouche, PC): Mr. Speaker, several
of my fellow citizens told me that the changes made in 1995 to
the eligibility rules for the tax deduction for persons with
disabilities make it very difficult, if not impossible, to
benefit from that deduction.
Is the Minister of National Revenue prepared to recognize this
fact and will he consult his colleague, the Minister of Finance,
to correct this unfair situation for persons with disabilities
and thus give them the means to improve their quality of life?
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the system to which the hon. member
is referring has been in existence for several years. All the
members of this House have constituents who, at some point in
time, benefited from that tax deduction, which is provided for
persons with a severe handicap.
Each application is reviewed very objectively by the department,
to make sure of course that those who are entitled to the
deduction benefit from it. The files are reassessed periodically
for the benefit of Canadians and to take into account any change
in people's health.
* * *
HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION
Mr. Jean Dubé (Madawaska—Restigouche, PC): Mr. Speaker, following
the 1993 federal election, former transport minister Doug Young
transferred to his own riding funds that had already been
earmarked for the major highway project in the riding of
Madawaska.
This is a very important project for the region's economic
future.
1150
Can the Minister of Transport tell us whether he intends to
undertake negotiations with the Government of New Brunswick to
reach an agreement, so that this highway can become a reality?
[English]
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to announce to
the House that negotiations have been ongoing for a lengthy
period of time, with the co-operation of all transport ministers
and governments from each and every province, on the development
of a national highway policy.
* * *
AGRICULTURE
Mrs. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food knows very
well that trade is the lifeblood of our Canadian agriculture and
agri-food industry.
That being said, I would like the minister to tell the House how
our Canadian government intends to assist the Quebec sector in
exporting its products around the world.
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we were pleased to make use of some
programs in Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada for food promotion
yesterday.
We announced to Club Export, the export arm of the industry in
Quebec, a $1,3 million contribution and to maple producers in
Quebec support to the extent of over $750,000 for their industry
to promote maple products out of Quebec under the wonderful
trademark of Maple Mark.
* * *
THE ECONOMY
Mr. Richard M. Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley,
Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, WEFA, an econometrics firm
that the government uses to crunch its own figures, has clearly
given a huge thumbs up to the alliance's 17% tax solution. As
well, the Library of Parliament has also given its approval
saying that it is indeed workable.
In the minister's statements where he slanders the alliance's
plan, why does he continue to deny the credibility of WEFA and
the Library of Parliament? Why does he do that?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I want to respond to the spokesman for the duplicitous
alliance party. Under the Reform flat tax examples, a single
taxpayer earning $30,000 would receive a $624 tax cut, while a
single taxpayer earning $200,000 would receive, get this, a
$22,150 tax cut.
Is it fair that someone earning almost seven times the income of
a person earning $30,000 should receive a tax cut 35 times
greater? No wonder the alliance party will go down the tubes
whenever it has to face the public. It is there for the rich,
not for the ordinary Canadian.
* * *
[Translation]
AFRICA
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, having last
week declared that its war with Eritrea was over, Ethiopia is
this week resuming operations on all fronts, in what seems far
more like all out war than border skirmishes. Because of the
international community's lack of interest, negotiations are
dragging out and there is a threat of greater famine.
In order for this border war to be brought to an end, is the
Minister of Foreign Affairs prepared to propose to the UN
Security Council that peacekeepers be sent in, or are we to
conclude that these countries are too poor to merit the
attention of the international community?
Hon. David Kilgour (Secretary of State (Latin America and
Africa), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, ten days ago, I was in Addis Ababa
to plead the case for a ceasefire in the region, in order to
save lives in Eritrea, and of course in Ethiopia as well.
I accept with great pleasure the feelings expressed by the hon.
member and I am sure that all members of this House share them.
* * *
[English]
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Rick Laliberte (Churchill River, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
on Wednesday afternoon representatives of the Grassy Narrows
First Nations stood outside parliament and asked for sustainable
and fair forest management. The communities recognize the good
working relationship with Tembec but grave concerns about Abitibi
were raised.
The provincial government and its allocation of clear-cutting
are killing their traditional ways of life and land use. They
spoke of poisons in their waters, on their lands and in their
animals. Will the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development commit today to an investigation of these serious
concerns?
Hon. Robert D. Nault (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the member's question is a
very important one. The issue of first nations people on their
traditional territories and their relationship with provincial
governments and with the private sector is one that is important
to all of us.
1155
I can confirm to him that the minister and our department have
made resources available to the first nations in order for them
to get to the negotiating table to resolve these issues where
they should be resolved.
* * *
CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION
Mr. Mark Muise (West Nova, PC): Mr. Speaker, could the
Deputy Prime Minister tell us whether the CBC's decision to cut
regional news programming by two-thirds is an attempt to make
regional news programming less relevant to Canadians, therefore
helping it to justify its future cancellation? Does he
personally support the scaling down?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I thought that the hon. member would come back to those
articles written by the economists at McGill University about the
previous Conservative government.
If he had done that I would have stated, and I will now, that
over two million new jobs have been created since the Liberal
government took office in 1993. Unemployment is 4.8% lower than
the 11.4% the government inherited shortly after taking office in
October 1993, the largest decline in unemployment under the
leadership of any Canadian government in over 50 years.
Why did the hon. member not get up and ask me that question so I
could have put those facts on the table, as I have done anyway?
* * *
LABOUR
Mr. Ovid L. Jackson (Bruce—Grey, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of
Labour. When will Canada ratify the International Labour
Organization convention on youth and child labour?
Mrs. Judi Longfield (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Labour, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to inform my
colleague and all members of the House that on June 6 Canada did
indeed ratify the ILO convention on the elimination of the worst
forms of child labour.
I would remind the House that because labour is a shared
responsibility we need the support of all territories and
provinces to ratify conventions. As such, the Minister of Labour
is very pleased to congratulate and thank all ministers of labour
throughout the provinces for their co-operation. In addition—
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. member for
Prince George—Peace River.
* * *
HEALTH
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I want to quote directly from the
provincial health ministers' report that is due to be released
later today:
—provinces and territories have responded to the financial
pressures by more than backfilling the federal funding cuts and
have added even more money to their health budgets. On the other
hand, the report indicates the dramatic and long term reductions
of the federal cash contribution both in relative and absolute
terms.
Why will the government not live up to its commitment to provide
adequate health care for all Canadians?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let us look at
what we have done. In the past two years we have increased the
transfers to the provinces for health care by fully 25%. The
transfers to the provinces are at an all time high. That is our
commitment as demonstrated by what we have done. We have also
said that when the provinces will join together with us to secure
the future of the Canada Health Act there will be a lot more
federal money on the table.
* * *
[Translation]
CANADIAN MILITARY
Mr. René Laurin (Joliette, BQ): Mr. Speaker, on May 23,
Brigadier General Richard Bastien announced in London before a
group of Canadian parliamentarians that, in the fall of 2000, a
contingent of some 100 Canadian military personnel will be
standing on guard at Buckingham Palace in London.
Can the minister tell us how much this parade will cost the
Canadian taxpayer?
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I will begin by thanking
the hon. member for his question.
Unfortunately, I must tell him that I do not have the figures in
front of me. Had he given me a few minutes of advance notice
before question period, I could have obtained the figures he
wanted.
I am going to obtain the figures and will then provide the
answer.
* * *
1200
[English]
WORKPLACE SAFETY
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr. Speaker, for
seven years the government has refused to proclaim part III of
the Parliamentary Employment and Staff Relations Act. This means
that the 500 or so employees on the Hill have no coverage
whatsoever under any workplace safety and health legislation.
If the government claims to be concerned about workplace safety,
when will it give royal proclamation to part III of the
Parliamentary Employment and Staff Relations Act so that Hill
employees will enjoy the same coverage that all Canadians enjoy?
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member will know that
this issue has been brought before the Board of Internal Economy
on several occasions in the past.
He will know of course that the House of Commons has established
internal mechanisms to deal precisely with this issue outside of
the act in question.
At the same time, all members of the House must surely know that
the basic principle under which we operate is that it is
parliament and members of the House that have to decide when
parliament is sitting, when parliament can function. We could
never relegate that responsibility to anyone else. It would be
wrong and probably unconstitutional.
* * *
CANADA GAMES
Mr. Jean Dubé (Madawaska—Restigouche, PC): Mr. Speaker,
very soon the region of Madawaska—Restigouche will be hosting
the next Canada Games.
Can the minister tell the House today how negotiations are going
with the host society and with the provincial government? Can he
guarantee that the federal government will be at the plate to
guarantee the best Canada Games ever?
[Translation]
Hon. Denis Coderre (Secretary of State (Amateur Sport), Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin by thanking the hon. member
for his question.
Obviously, the Canada Games are probably the most successful
event. This is an event where there is full co-operation between
the provincial and federal governments. The Government of
Canada is already investing close to $4 million over two years
on the games. We are also paying all athletes' costs.
Last week, I met with Minister Robichaud during our first
Atlantic conference on a national sports policy.
We agreed to sit down together here in Ottawa with the
responsible minister from New Brunswick two weeks from now. The
Canada Games will be held in Campbellton in 2003.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): As question period
comes to an end, it would be duplicitous of me to leave the
impression with the House that the Chair has given its imprimatur
to the use of the word duplicity in a cavalier fashion. It is a
word that has spice but let us not throw it around capriciously.
This brings question period to an end.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[Translation]
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in
both official languages, the government's response to 12
petitions.
* * *
NATIONAL ARTS CENTRE
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Madam Speaker, during its last
appearance before the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage,
National Arts Centre management volunteered to table a summary
of its business plan and operating and capital expenditure
budgets for 1999 to 2002.
On behalf of the National Arts Centre, I am tabling that
document today.
* * *
1205
[English]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
TRANSPORT
Mr. Stan Keyes (Hamilton West, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I
have the honour to present, in both official languages, the third
report of the Standing Committee on Transport.
Pursuant to its order of reference of Thursday, June 1, 2000,
your committee has considered Bill C-34, an act to amend the
Canada Transportation Act.
Special thanks must be given to the men and women in the
committee and legislative branch, especially my committee clerk,
Guyanne Desforges, who pulled double and even triple duty in a
very limited timeframe to achieve this result.
JUSTICE AND HUMAN RIGHTS
Mr. Ivan Grose (Oshawa, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I have the
honour and, I might add, a little surprised, to present in both
official languages the sixth report of the Standing Committee on
Justice and Human Rights.
Pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, May 16, 2000,
your committee has considered Bill C-18, an act to amend the
criminal code (impaired driving causing death and other matters),
and has agreed to report it without amendment.
PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I
have the honour to present the 34th report of the Standing
Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding the issue of
confidentiality of the work of the legislative counsel.
I also have the honour to present the 35th report of the
Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding the
membership on the Standing Committee on Environment and
Sustainable Development. If the House gives its consent, I
intend to give concurrence in the 35th report later this day.
* * *
ENERGY PRICE COMMISSION ACT
Mr. John Solomon (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, NDP) moved
for leave to introduce Bill C-488, an act to establish the Energy
Price Commission.
He said: Madam Speaker, Canadians from all over the country are
very concerned about price gouging, in particular with respect to
gasoline and diesel fuel. The Canadian population does not
believe the big oil companies. They are sick and tired of the
Liberal's buck-passing on this issue.
We regulate stamps, cable television and many other things. The
bill I am introducing today will indeed establish an energy price
commission which will regulate the wholesale and the retail price
of motor fuels, including diesel, propane, heating oil, natural
gas and electric power.
The purpose of price regulation is to avoid unreasonable
increases that affect the cost of living and depress business
activity. The bill will facilitate reasonable consistency in
prices from province to province allowing for production and
distribution costs. The regulation further minimizes the risk of
collusion in pricing, which many Canadians believe is happening,
and prevents dominant suppliers from setting unreasonable prices.
The major objective of the bill is to provide some transparency
in the pricing of fuel and energy. The refiners are not
transparent and there are vertically integrated companies. I
believe there has to be a time when the government stands up and
takes some action to protect consumers, as this bill will.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
1210
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker, if
the House gives its consent, I move that the 35th report of the
Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, presented to
the House earlier this day, be concurred in.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Does the hon. member
have the unanimous consent of the House to present the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Is it the pleasure of the
House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to)
* * *
PETITIONS
GASOLINE PRICES
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Madam Speaker, I am
pleased to table in the House a petition signed by 243
constituents from the riding of Jonquière.
The petitioners call on the Canadian government to pass a
resolution aimed at stopping the monopoly of the international
oil cartel in order to reduce predatory pricing of crude oil,
and to allocate sufficient funds to research into alternative
energy sources so that, in the near future, Canadians would no
longer be forced to turn to oil as a main energy source.
IMPORTATION OF PLUTONIUM
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Madam Speaker, I have
the pleasure to table another petition addressed to the Canadian
government and signed by 50 people.
The petitioners call on Parliament to take all necessary action
so that Canadians and their representatives are consulted on the
principle of importing MOX plutonium.
[English]
PESTICIDES
Mrs. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.):
Madam Speaker, it is my honour and privilege to present a
petition in the House today that contains several hundred
signatures.
The petitioners, as citizens of Canada, are calling on
parliament to consider and enact the legislation proposed in
private member's bill, Bill C-388, that the House of Commons
place a moratorium on the cosmetic use of chemical pesticides in
homes and gardens, and on recreational facilities such as parks
and golf courses, until scientific and medical evidence shows
that such use is safe and has been presented to parliament and
concurred in by a parliamentary committee.
HEALTH
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Madam Speaker, I am
indeed pleased to rise to table three petitions. The first two
are petitions from many Canadians who are concerned about the
public health care system.
The petitioners recognize that the federal government is funding
the health care system at less than 15% of the cost and that this
has certainly opened the door to a two tier style American health
care system.
The petitioners call upon the federal government to stop the for
profit hospitals and restore federal funding for health care, and
also to implement a national home care program and a national
program for prescription drugs.
ORGAN DONORS
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Madam Speaker, the
third petition also deals with health but it concerns the issue
of automatic harvesting of organs at death for transplants.
The many people who have signed this petition recognize that the
unavailability of organs for transplant causes a lot of
difficulty, a long wait, undue suffering and compromised recovery
for transplant recipients, and that there is a limited time
window for the harvesting of organs.
The petitioners call upon the government to enact legislation to
allow automatic harvesting of organs at death for transplants
unless specific requests to the contrary have been made.
DIVORCE ACT
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I have
a petition signed by many of my constituents asking parliament to
amend the Divorce Act to include the provision, as supported in
Bill C-340, regarding the rights of spouses' parents, that is the
grandparents, to have access to their grandchildren.
At present they are having some difficulties getting access to
their grandchildren as a result of the death, separation or
divorce of their children.
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Ghislain Fournier (Manicouagan, BQ): Madam Speaker, I am
pleased to present, in the name of my fellow citizens of the
riding of Manicouagan, a petition signed by more than 3,000
people.
The petitioners call on Parliament to maintain the status quo so
that the federal ridings of Manicouagan and Charlevoix continue
to be part of the previous administrative region of northern
Quebec, so as to keep employment insurance eligibility
requirements at 420 hours for 32 weeks of benefits.
1215
[English]
HEALTH CARE
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Madam Speaker, I
rise to present a petition. These many thousands of Canadians
who have come to me feel strongly that the government must take
every step possible to save our Canadian public health care
system and to stop the two tier American style system which is
threatening to move into Canada and to privatize this treasured
institution, our not for profit public health care system.
The petitioners believe that the federal government should
immediately bring health care funding back up to 25% rather than
the 13.5% that is currently given to the provinces as the federal
government's share. They feel passionately that we must do
everything we can to save our health care system.
DANGEROUS OFFENDERS
Mr. John Solomon (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, NDP):
Madam Speaker, I am pleased to present a petition pursuant to
Standing Order 36 on behalf of many Canadians who are very
concerned about the Criminal Code of Canada. In particular
section 608(3) makes it too easy for a person who has been
convicted of a serious crime such as murder, attempted murder,
sexual assault, manslaughter and firearms offences involving a
term of imprisonment greater than five years to obtain release
from custody pending the hearing of their appeal.
The petitioners would like the Government of Canada to amend the
criminal code to prevent persons convicted of serious crimes from
being released from custody pending the hearing of their appeal,
except in very exceptional circumstances.
* * *
[Translation]
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I ask
that all questions be allowed to stand.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[Translation]
CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY ACT
The House resumed consideration of Bill C-19, an act respecting
genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes and to
implement the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court,
and to make consequential amendments to other acts, as reported
(with amendment) by the committee and of the motions in
Group No. 2.
SPEAKER'S RULING
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): This morning, the hon.
member for Beauharnois—Salaberry rose on a point of order
concerning two motions which he moved at report stage of Bill
C-19, the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act, that
were ruled out of order.
According to the member, his amendments, which sought to append
the Rome Statute to the bill, were aimed at informing the people
about the provisions of the treaty.
The Chair examined the issue raised by the hon. member and did
some research. According to citation 704 in the sixth edition of
Beauchesne's:
It is not necessary to include agreements in bills which have as
their purpose the carrying into effect of those agreements.
Moreover, the Chair looked carefully at the scope of the bill
and does not believe that the inclusion of the text of the Rome
Statute is directly related to Canada's obligations under this
treaty.
I am sorry that in this case I cannot accept the arguments or
the amendment motions by the hon. member.
[English]
REPORT STAGE
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, I rise to speak to this bill with some trepidation
because of the largely emotional aspect of it.
Many years ago there was a song that was sung on the radio. It
went, “Ain't going to study war no more”. I will not sing it
because that may affect negatively on the people on the other
side of the House who may rise in derision at my attempt to sing.
It was a spiritual song, “Ain't going to study war no more”.
Without exception, all thinking people, all people with any
conscience at all, will agree that war is terribly bad.
It is really wrong. It is as great an evil as we can think of.
Even if it involves only the people who are enlisted, it still
involves humans pointing weapons at their fellow humans with the
intent to kill them, and success goes to the one who wipes out
the other side.
1220
It is a great aberration to our society. It is one that would
drive humanists to despair. For many years the humanists have
said that we as a humanity are getting better and better but it
is quite clear that is not happening. If I were a humanist in
the sense of that being a religious faith, my faith would be
severely shaken because of the atrocities that have continued
through the ages and which continue to this very day. Quite
clearly war crimes, atrocities committed in war and indeed even
atrocities that are committed outside of war are abhorrent to us.
I think of another phrase. There are some things that are so
evil, so offensive, that it is even difficult for us to speak
about them. The atrocities of war certainly come into that
category. I find it difficult to even think about them let alone
speak about them.
I happen to be sandwiched between two generations that have
firsthand experience with this. My grandparents and parents were
in the middle of such atrocities. My parents were in their very
early teens when they escaped from what we affectionately call
the old country. They did so under the threat of losing their
lives if they stayed. They were able to escape. I have said in
the House many times and I will never stop saying it, how
grateful I am that their escape was successful, that my
grandparents made the decision to make Canada their home and that
Canada, with its arms wide open for refugees, accepted our
family. I will be forever grateful for that.
I said I was sandwiched between two generations which have had
firsthand experience with this. The other side of it is the
experiences of my son, who I suppose picked up some of our family
values. He spent one summer while he was at university working
in third world countries with a Christian relief agency. The
stories he told of things that he observed firsthand are enough
to make one cry. It is impossible to imagine the things that
humans will do to one another. I want to relate just a few.
With a name like Epp, it is not to be unexpected that I have
some Mennonite heritage, since that name appears quite frequently
in Mennonite circles. My family members in southern Russia at
the end of the first world war and during the time of the Russian
revolution were considered to be enemies of the revolution
because they would not take up arms in order to annihilate fellow
human beings. They thought that was morally wrong so they would
not do it. As a result my family and all other Mennonite
families were considered by the revolutionaries to be enemies of
the revolution. Hence they became targets.
Many times late at night, sometimes after midnight, their homes
would be attacked by the revolutionaries. Because they knew that
the people who inhabited those homes were not for the revolution,
they were simply taken out and shot. Three of my maternal
grandfather's brothers lost their lives. It was a miracle that
my grandfather survived in that particular occurrence. There were
many other cases.
1225
I read not too long ago The Diary of Anna Baerg who
underwent some of these atrocities and wrote about them in a
diary not unlike The Diary of Anne Frank. I recommend that
book to all members. As a matter of fact, the government House
leader had a copy of that book and lent it to me since he knew of
my interest in it. I read the book carefully and with great
interest because it represented the things that my own family
went through.
She relates some of the atrocities about the people who were
summarily shot, people she knew and lived with, her neighbours.
She indicated how one girl was not shot. She said in her book
that there are some things worse than death, and Madam Speaker,
you and I know what she is talking about. I cannot help but
grieve when I think of the things people are willing to do to
others.
My son worked in different places in Africa, in southern Sudan,
Somalia and Rwanda. He worked in Croatia. In Croatia a home was
set up for women who suffered terribly in the conflict. He told
me stories that broke my heart about things that were done to
children while their mothers watched. The stories are so
detestable that I cannot and will not speak about them though the
picture is very vivid in my mind.
I do not know what the answer is. We have before us a bill to
bring to justice the people who do these things.
My son and his wife went to Rwanda. The government provided them
with a school so they could provide housing for the hundreds of
children whose parents were killed in the conflict. To kill
parents in front of their children and to leave the children on
their own is a huge atrocity.
My son and his wife had as their first job to clean the school.
The school was filled with bullet holes. The enemies had entered
the school when it was in operation and when the so-called
soldiers left, every student and teacher in the school had been
shot and subsequently died. My son's job was to clean up all the
mess on the walls. That school was used to house the children
and give them some shelter and love.
Madam Speaker, I see your signal and cannot believe that I have
only covered my preamble.
Canada's involvement in reducing the crime of war throughout the
country is what we should be emphasizing. Let us help to spread
the message of love and forgiveness and learn to live with one
another so these things do not happen. Yes, we must to the
degree that we are able, help to restrain the evil which pervades
our country and our very world and which leads to the hideous
atrocities committed against women, children and men.
[Translation]
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased
to rise in turn to speak to the second group of amendments to
Bill C-19 to implement the Rome Statute in Canada, which will
help prepare for the creation of the International Criminal
Court and recognize that Canada has obligations.
1230
I in turn wish to congratulate the Standing Committee on Foreign
Affairs and International Trade on its work. I must say that I
have been on two other committees during my parliamentary life
and I have greatly appreciated the committee's ability to work
in a non-partisan manner on a number of issues.
This was certainly the case for this bill, and I congratulate
the committee chair. I also pay tribute to all members and to
the departmental representatives who appeared before us. We
worked hard to come up with the best legislation possible for
Canada.
That having been said, I also wish to point out that it became
clear in the course of our work and also from what was said by
the witnesses who appeared before us from the department, or
from one of the other departments, that this bill was
progressive, but that it could be even more so, especially with
respect to jurisdiction and immunity. It was on these two
issues in particular that the member for Beauharnois—Salaberry
moved the amendments which I seconded. Yes, we salute this
bill.
We salute the work done to improve it, through the good faith of
all parties on the committee. I also point out that this bill
can be improved further. Some witnesses who appeared before the
committee even admitted that, if has not yet been improved, it
could be improved later on, and in fact the discussion we
brought about this morning will pave the way for the committee's
subsequent work, although we would like the government to agree
this morning to broaden the scope of the bill.
I will now give our reasons for having moved some of these
amendments. First, we would have liked the government to have
admitted, by adopting an amendment, that the present bill has to
do with the performance of Canada's obligations under the Rome
Statute. If that is the objective, why not spell it out in the
bill? This leaves a doubt.
And this doubt is all the greater because in committee and now,
this morning, the Chair has told us that the government did not
want to include the Rome Statute and its amendments in a
schedule. I note that, in the ruling just now, the Chair cited
Beauchesne as saying that it is not necessary to include
agreements or treaties in implementing statutes. Our concern is
not with the need to do so, but the fact that this has already
been done in other Canadian implementing statutes.
As far as this law is concerned, we need to provide people with
some information, as the colleague who spoke before me has already
stated so eloquently, because the International Criminal Court is
still not well known. Often the NGOs who worked to create it
and the various government and international law experts are the
only ones to receive any information.
We need, however, to make the general public aware of the
preparations that have been made throughout the world in order
to create an international criminal court which would be
empowered to judge all those who have committed crimes of such
enormity, these horrible crimes of genocide, crimes against
humanity and war crimes.
1235
War is never a clean business, but the countries have come to
mutual agreement on a certain number of rules relating to
civilians and prisoners of war. As we know, and as we have seen
recently, and continue to see, there are certain groups, certain
troops that have turned their backs on this international
convention. The crimes of genocide and crimes against humanity
are defined in the bill. These are definitions which will apply
equally in future to Canadian statutes and to the implementation
of the provisions of the Rome Statute.
We would have liked to have seen the Rome Statute and its
amendments given as an appendix to the bill, but what we would
have liked still more would have been to have the bill provide
broader jurisdiction for Canadian courts acting in this area.
What is meant by broader jurisdiction? I am not a lawyer, and
sometimes glad of it, since I then have to translate these
things into words, which I hope will be understandable to
everyone, what my hon. colleagues say most precisely, but not
always in a way that is understandable to the general public.
What broader jurisdiction means is that the Canadian courts
could judge people who have been charged of such crimes, not
solely those whose victims are Canadians or who, as
perpetrators, are Canadians, but also anyone who has committed
such crimes.
The reaction to this will be “But that is extremely broad.
Can it be done?” The answer is yes. I will quote the Minister of
Foreign Affairs of Belgium. It should be known that Belgium
enacted legislation giving its courts broader powers. In June
1998, addressing a gathering of the representatives of the
countries that formed the project of an international tribunal,
International Criminal Court, Minister Derijke made the
following announcement. He said “In compliance with the
principle of universal jurisdiction, my country passed
legislation enabling its courts and tribunals to prosecute in
1993 suspected criminals”.
He did not say Belgian criminals or persons against whom
Belgians may have committed crimes. He referred instead to
persons suspected of having committed war crimes, regardless of
where the crimes were committed or the citizenship of the
perpetrators. He is talking about an expanded universal
jurisdiction.
I know that Canada acted as a catalyst during the drafting of
the Rome Statute. I know also that departmental officials, and
external affairs officials in particular, worked hard on it and
I salute them. At the same time I serve notice that the Bloc
will keep on working to expand jurisdiction.
But there is more at issue, namely the issue of immunity. But
even with expanded powers or jurisdictions, if at the same time,
we in Canada were to grant immunity to former general Pinochet,
for instance, then, we would have failed.
This is the reason why we introduced these amendments.
It is not to unduly prolong the proceedings of the House. We
thought this voice should be heard in the House of Commons
during this debate. I have heard colleagues from at least one
other party who were receptive to our comments.
1240
It will not be easy to establish the International Criminal
Court. Nine countries have already ratified the treaty. Canada
will soon follow, but 60 signatories are required. Once the
treaty has been ratified by 60 countries, the court will have
jurisdiction over the signatory countries, but it will have to
go through the security council counsel to have jurisdiction
over other countries or criminals who take refuge or are living
in other countries, hence the importance for countries, as the
Belgium minister said, to give themselves the broadest
jurisdiction possible.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is the House ready for the
question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The question is on Motion
No. 2. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour of the
motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed will
please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the nays
have it.
An hon. member: On division.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No.2 lost.
(Motion No. 2 negatived)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The question is on Motion
No. 5. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour of the
motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed will
please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the nays
have it.
An hon. member: On division.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No. 5
lost.
(Motion No. 5 negatived)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The question in on Motion
No. 6. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour of the
motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed will
please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the nays
have it.
An hon. member: On division.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No. 6 lost.
(Motion No. 6 negatived)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The question is on Motion
No. 8. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour of the
motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed will
please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the nays
have it.
An hon. member: On division.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No. 8
lost.
(Motion No. 8 negatived)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The next question is on
Motion No. 9. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the
motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour of the
motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed will
please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the nays
have it.
An hon. member: On division.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No. 9
lost.
(Motion No. 9 negatived)
[English]
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (for the Minister of Foreign Affairs,
Lib.) moved that the bill be concurred in.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is it the pleasure
of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the
yeas have it.
Some hon. members: On division.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare the motion
carried.
(Motion agreed to)
* * *
1245
CANADA NATIONAL PARKS ACT
The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill C-27, an act
respecting the national parks of Canada, as reported (with
amendment) from the committee.
SPEAKER'S RULING
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): There are 15
motions in amendment standing on the notice paper for the report
stage of Bill C-27.
The motions will be grouped for debate as follows:
Group No. 1, Motions Nos. 1 to 5, 10 and 13.
Group No. 2, Motions Nos. 6, 7, 11, 12 and 15.
Group No. 3, Motions Nos. 8 and 9.
Group No. 4, Motion No. 14.
The voting patterns for the motions within each group are
available at the table. The Chair will remind the House of each
pattern at the time of voting.
I will now submit Motions Nos. 1 to 5 and 10 and 13 to the
House.
MOTIONS IN AMENDMENT
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Canadian Alliance)
moved:
That Bill C-27, in Clause 5, be amended by replacing line 28 on
page 3 with the following:
That Bill C-27, in Clause 6, be amended by replacing line 41 on
page 3 with the following:
Mr. Rick Laliberte (Churchill River, NDP) moved:
That Bill C-27, in Clause 8, be amended by adding after line 13
on page 5 the following:
“(3) For the purposes of maintaining or restoring ecological
integrity, the Minister shall, where applicable,
(a) work cooperatively with federal and provincial ministers and
agencies, local and aboriginal governments and organizations,
bodies established under land claims agreements, representatives
of park communities, private organizations, individuals and
landowners in or adjacent to a park; and
(b) participate in the development and implementation of
processes and programs that may reasonably be expected to affect
ecological integrity, including research, education, land use
planning and environmental assessments.”
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Canadian Alliance)
moved:
That Bill C-27, in Clause 10, be amended by adding before line 1
on page 6 the following:
“(2.1) An agreement entered into pursuant to paragraph
(2)(b) must take into account any traditional supply of water
from the park.”
That Bill C-27, in Clause 12, be amended by adding after line 30
on page 6 the following:
“(1.1) For greater certainty, the Minister shall provide
opportunities for public participation in respect of
(a) the determination of an increase in fees, rates, rents and
other charges for the use of park resources and facilities, and
(b) the control of access to parks by air.”
That Bill C-27, in Clause 33, be
amended by adding after line 38 on page 22 the following:
“(1.1) A person who is a member of or who has a proprietary
interest in the lands included in the park community is entitled
to a reasonable opportunity to be consulted and make
representations in respect of the development and approval of the
community plan for the park community.”
Mr. Rick Laliberte (Churchill River, NDP) moved:
That Bill C-27, in Clause 40, be amended
“(2) The application of this Act to a park reserve is
subject to traditional aboriginal ecological knowledge and
recognition of the integral role that such knowledge plays in the
traditional renewable resource harvesting activities of
aboriginal persons.”
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to debate Bill C-27, an act
respecting the national parks act of Canada at report stage.
The Canadian Alliance have made a number of amendments to help
improve the legislation in the following areas: First, to
strengthen democratic processes as well making it more inclusive;
second, to help the parks administration become more accountable
for its decision making; third, to recognize the traditional
historic rights to access water from a park; and fourth, to make
sure that park wardens have all the resources needed to do their
jobs.
Let me being by saying that our amendments to clauses 5 and 6
will make the consultation process much more inclusive by
including local government bodies in the text. We at the federal
level always talk about municipal governments and how important
they are but rarely do we include them in our legislation. It is
irresponsible for the federal state to not recognize local
government bodies throughout the act.
I still remember the present Prime Minister, in June 1996 at a
FCM Calgary convention, telling the folks how important the
municipalities were in Canada. Well, Mr. Prime Minister, the
municipalities are all still waiting to be acknowledged. Perhaps
accepting this amendment would be a good start.
The Canadian Alliance amendment to clause 10 by adding the words
“traditional supply water from the park” will recognize the
historic rights which existed prior to the formation of the park.
This amendment will break the gridlock between Parks Canada and
Dauphin, my home town. Dauphin has drawn water from the Riding
Mountain National Park since the early 1900s, predating the
existence of the park. Today the water source of the town is the
same. Over the last decade, under my watch as the former mayor,
an agreement could not be ironed out. Recognizing the
traditional rights of the town will be a big help in finalizing
an agreement with the park.
Having the ability to draw water from a park does not mean it is
potable. In 1995 Dauphin was inflicted with a water emergency
much like Walkerton, the only difference was that the infected
did not die. They became very sick from drinking the park water.
We found out that the water was contaminated with a
micro-organism called giardia. The source of this giardia were
the beavers in the park. A boil order lasted for almost two
years until a new water treatment plant was constructed. The
giardia is still in the water from the park.
1250
Our amendment to clause 12 states that for greater certainty,
whenever fees, rents, rates and other charges for the use of park
resources and facilities are increased, the minister shall
provide opportunity for public participation. In others words,
the people must have a say whenever an increase is levied. The
public must have input to decisions that are made which affect
their pocketbook. If they do not have input, it is taxation
without representation.
The Canadian Alliance amendment to clause 18 ensures that park
wardens will have access to all resources that are required,
including the possession of a firearm for the enforcement of this
act and the regulations in all parts of the Canada, and for the
preservation and maintenance of the public peace in parks.
Ten out of eleven provincial natural resources organizations
equip their officers with firearms. I ask members to put
themselves in their shoes before opposing this amendment. These
officers have families and love ones like you and me, Mr.
Speaker.
Our next amendment to clause 33 mandates that as a person who is
a member of or who has a proprietary interest in the lands
included in the park community is entitled to a reasonable
opportunity to be consulted and make representation in respect of
the development and approval of the community plan for the park
community. In other words, if the park user has an interest in
the park, then they need to have access to decision making. This
in essence calls for democratizing the decision making process.
The Canadian Alliance's last amendment deals with the whole
issue of air safety. This issue has been debated for too long.
Small aircraft flying through the Rocky Mountains need alternate
landing strips in case of emergency. This is the reason that all
airstrips in national parks should be in operational condition.
COPA has been lobbying for this change for too many years. This
amendment was made for the purpose of public safety. The air
facilities in national parks should be open at all times. The
saving of one life is worth supporting this amendment. As a
pilot who has been flying for over 30 years, this amendment is
about saving lives, and I ask my colleagues for their support.
As Canadians we all love our national parks. We all use
national parks in different ways. Some of us like to use the
beaches and some the campgrounds, some like to see the town sites
and some the wilderness areas, and some like to take part in the
nature programs. Parks and people go hand in hand. Can anyone
imagine a park without giving people access?
Having travelled and consulted with most of the western park
communities, what I found disturbing was the lack of trust in
Parks Canada by both seasonal and full time residents of national
parks. People want to be treated with openness, honesty and
respect. I do not think this will happen unless this legislation
mandates compulsory consultation and accountability. The problem
at this time is that the buck does not stop anywhere. I believe
checks and balances are needed to ensure that the buck does stop
somewhere.
In closing, I say that our amendments were made with the
objective to improve this bill. I ask all members for their
support to these amendment.
[Translation]
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, during second
reading of Bill C-27 on national parks, the Bloc Quebecois
indicated that it was in agreement in principle, but that it
intended to raise some important concerns. First, there was the
issue of maintaining and restoring the ecological integrity of
parks, and the question of the time limits for the examination
of ministerial orders with respect to amendments to certain
schedules of the proposed legislation, which we feel are too
short.
There was also the issue of respect for the rights of
communities living within or near parks and, finally, the
designation of historic sites, without consulting provinces or
municipalities.
Following representations made to the Standing Committee on
Canadian Heritage by the various interested parties, the Bloc
Quebecois moved twenty or so amendments. The committee agreed
to include a definition of ecological integrity in the bill.
We would also have liked clause 4 to deal more directly with
this issue of ecological integrity, but we are happy that clause
8 stipulates that the minister's first priority shall be matters
of ecological integrity.
The committee extended the time limit for examining ministerial
orders to amend certain schedules to the legislation from 20 to
30 days. This is no guarantee that the committees responsible
for these matters will be convened, but it reduces the risk
considerably and we are satisfied.
1255
The issue of respect for the rights of communities living within
or near parks has not, in our view, been entirely resolved.
However, clause 12 has been considerably improved so as to
require the minister to encourage the public to participate in
the development of policies and regulations that might concern
it.
In addition, I must point out that, thanks to the intervention
of the member for Manicouagan, the representations from
inhabitants of the Mingan Archipelago were well received. Thus,
in accordance with the wishes expressed by its inhabitants, the
Mingan Archipelago has been added to the list of parks in clause
17 of the bill in respect of which the minister may make
regulations regarding the exercise of traditional renewable
resource harvesting activities.
Besides, the limits of the park in the Mingan Archipelago will
be, for each island, at the high water mark, as the
representatives of the area wanted it to be.
On another topic, clause 42 of the bill provides that the
governor in council may set any land as a national historic site
to commemorate a historic event or preserve a historic landmark.
At first sight, these provisions appear desirable and harmless,
but a closer examination shows that the minister could intrude,
without provinces and even interested municipalities being
aware, on sites and historic sites and deal with them and
develop them the way he wants without necessarily abiding by
town planning, zoning or any other municipal bylaws or
provincial regulations.
There is a risk that a quiet neighbourhood might be
transformed over night. A historic town centre could become a
federal property, one building at the time, and the whole of it
would become free from any obligation relating to provincial
regulations or municipal bylaws. This is unacceptable in my
opinion.
The Bloc Quebecois moved in the Standing Committee on Canadian
Heritage an amendment proposing that such acquisitions should at
least be approved by the provinces or province involved. The
amendment was rejected by the Liberal majority.
This is why, and we will come to that later, I move that this
clause be withdrawn, as it creates this type of risk for our
provinces, municipalities and populations.
If the House does not withdraw this section, I urge all
provincial legislatures to legislate in order to subject to the
approval of a provincial minister all real property transactions
that would result in the transfer of a site to the federal
government for the purpose of making it an historical site.
In this way the transaction could be made, but the provincial
government and the municipalities would know about it and would
be able to take steps to ensure that those transactions are
respectful of the people and the authorities concerned.
To conclude, the Bloc will support the bill as amended at report
stage. We will, however, be carefully monitoring how Parks
Canada, whose priority must be the preservation and restoration
of the environmental integrity, is carrying out its mission .
[English]
Mr. Rick Laliberte (Churchill River, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
I am proud to stand and speak on the amendments to Bill C-27, an
act respecting the national parks of Canada.
During this portion of our parliamentary role at second reading,
I would like to state our appreciation for the outstanding levels
of co-operation during the committee hearings and the support
from Canada Parks personnel and their input in making our jobs as
parliamentarians possible throughout the legislative process.
I believe that parliamentarians and the national parks should be
above politics, and that the thrust of this for future
generations will be toward a better future for our national parks
and our national treasures.
1300
I call on members on both sides of the House to work together
toward a strong and powerful act that can create a positive
future for the integrity of national parks and the viability for
future generations to look forward to preserving our national
heritage.
We will be supporting the bill and seeking the amendments that
we have put forward to this point. Our first group of amendments
is issues of clarity. Our second group of amendments is issues
of concurrence. I would call on members to support those
amendments as well.
Mr. Mark Muise (West Nova, PC): Mr. Speaker, I too am
pleased to rise in the House to participate in the debate on Bill
C-27, an act representing national parks. Before I begin to
address the motions I should like to take a moment to express
some of the frustration and disappointment I have felt with the
government in the way it has tried to push this piece of
legislation through the House before the end of the session.
For instance, a couple of weeks ago we were notified that we
would be debating Bill C-27 at second reading the following
Wednesday. Late on Thursday afternoon we got a call that we
would be debating Bill C-27 the next day. I was fortunate that I
was present and could participate in the debate, but some of my
colleagues were not able to do so. That is the type of thing
that takes away from the good will in the heritage committee and
from the ability to properly participate in the process.
We saw some of this going on in committee when we had to sit
extended hours for two or three days just so that we could listen
to all the witnesses that had to come before us. I am not
bothered by the fact that we had to work extended hours but I
felt we had to rush and could not properly do all that had to be
done. It meant that we had not only to listen to testimony but
also had to study and read transcripts. The period of time to do
that was too compressed and took away from our ability as
parliamentarians to do our work in the proper way.
I congratulate the member for Dauphin—Swan River for submitting
his thoughtful amendments. I only regret, however, that he chose
to withdraw the same amendments from the heritage committee
during clause by clause consideration where we would have had the
opportunity to debate them to see exactly where he was going with
this piece of legislation and his amendments.
I thought some of the amendments that the member made were quite
reasonable. When he refused to put them forward at the heritage
committee I began questioning whether the member had changed his
mind and now agreed with the government's position on the
particular clauses.
Enough about that. Let me touch a little on the motions before
us, in particular Motions Nos. 1 and 2 introduced by the member
for Dauphin—Swan River. These motions would have the federal
government seek agreement with the provinces and the local
governing body when creating or enlarging a park.
Like the member for Dauphin—Swan River, I also was concerned
with ensuring that people living within the park communities had
a chance to take part in the discussions and have input, but the
problem arises with the ability to define local government and to
describe exactly what it means.
Banff has its own government. We know that the federal
government would not like to see that. We recognize that Jasper
really did not want that type of thing but wanted some input into
the process. The difficulty lies in defining exactly what local
government is.
Motion No. 3 was introduced by my hon. colleague from Churchill
River. This motion further highlights the extent to which
negotiations must be undertaken with all stakeholders.
1305
We introduced an amendment during clause by clause consideration
by the heritage committee that would specifically include
commercial interest as part of the negotiations. The government
changed the clause such that we could support what it did that
would make the process broader to include commercial interests as
well. This amendment would serve to strengthen the consultation
process.
Motion No. 4 is an amendment again introduced by my colleague
from Dauphin—Swan River. It would ensure that the federal
government could not cut off the traditional supply of water to
adjacent residents. With the focus on ecological integrity,
maintenance and restoration, this could possibly come into play.
It is not a bad idea. It is there to ensure that the supply of
fresh water remains constant.
Motion No. 5 was also introduced by my colleague from
Dauphin—Swan River. I like this amendment because it gives
local residents a greater say in determining the increase in
fees, rates, rents and other charges for those who use park
resources and facilities. Since this affects them directly they
should have a say in it.
It might also help prevent the astronomical increase in property
taxes that the people of Jasper are now being threatened with.
Perhaps through public input we could determine an appropriate
cost for entering our national parks areas that will be
affordable to the average Canadian. We want all Canadians to be
able to enjoy our national parts. That is what national parks
are all about.
Motion No. 5 concerns the control of access to parks by air,
which again was introduced by my colleague from Dauphin—Swan
River. I know he is an avid pilot who has been flying for years.
This issue had been dealt with in the past by the removal of an
airport at Banff. It is my belief the landing strip should be
maintained for emergency purposes just in case it is needed. It
should be maintained for those purposes.
Motion No. 10 was introduced by the hon. member for
Dauphin—Swan River. We would like to encourage participation by
all stakeholders in any decision making process. We want
operators of our ski hills to have an equal say in the future of
their industry. As any homeowner or business owner, they have a
role to play in the creation of a community plan.
Motion No. 13 was introduced by the hon. member for Churchill
River. I am not certain it reinforces the rights of aboriginal
people to carry on their traditional renewable resource
harvesting activities. The language of the government better
addresses this concern. However we do not dispute the aboriginal
peoples right to carry on their traditional harvesting in park
reserves.
In conclusion, I thank the House for allowing me this time to
speak to these motions and to the reworking and preparation of
Bill C-27.
[Translation]
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I will not be very long.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank my colleagues
from all parties who are members of the Standing Committee on
Canadian Heritage for the excellent work they have done.
I believe that we had a good discussion on Bill C-27. We heard many
witnesses and, on the whole—I suppose that everyone is not
satisfied in terms of the measures they wanted—the committee
met the concerns expressed during the hearings.
For example, for the aboriginals, we included a notwithstanding
clause and made other amendments in reply to certain concerns
that were expressed. We did the same thing for ecological
integrity. Each opposition party wanted a definition of this
concept. The government suggested one, which was amended and
which obtained the unanimous assent of committee. The same thing
happened in terms of the concerns expressed by the communities
living in the parks.
1310
We tried, in clauses 10 and 12, to partly follow their
recommendations, by ensuring that they will be consulted and
that the minister can conclude agreements with a variety of
groups, including business interests, among others.
I believe we really met the concerns of those who made that
presentation. For the benefit of my colleague from Portneuf, I
must make a small correction concerning the Mingan Archipelago.
This is not a big deal, but I want to mention that the reason
the government fully endorsed and followed through with the
proposals of this community is mainly the quality of the
delegation we received and of its presentation. The members of
the delegation were very warm in the way they convinced us of
the legitimacy of their proposals. I believe they convinced
everybody.
True enough, their MP made representations, but the quality of
this group had a lot to do with the government's decision. I
wanted to make sure the people from Mingan knew that it is in
great part due to their work that they will be satisfied if the
bill is passed. I do not want to guess what the House will
decide. I wanted to make sure they knew it.
Finally, I want to mention that in the first group we will
support Amendment No. 4, but none of the others. Again, overall,
the concerns raised by the opposition parties and by the groups
that appeared before the committee were listened to. We amended
the bill to reflect them in a positive way.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is the House ready
for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The question is on
Motion No. 1. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the the
motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the
nays have it.
Some hon. members: On division.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No.
1 lost on division.
(Motion No. 1 negatived)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The next question is
on Motion No. 2. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the
motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the
nays have it.
Some hon. members: On division.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The motion is lost
on division.
(Motion No. 2 negatived)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The next question is
on Motion No. 3. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the
motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the
nays have it.
Some hon. members: On division.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No.
3 lost on division.
(Motion No. 3 negatived)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The next question is
on Motion No. 4. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the
motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No.
4 carried.
(Motion No. 4 agreed to)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The next question is
on Motion No. 5.
Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
1315
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the
nays have it.
An hon. member: On division.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No.
5 lost on division.
(Motion No. 5 negatived)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The next question is
on Motion No. 10. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the
motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the
nays have it.
An hon. member: On division.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No.
10 lost on division.
(Motion No. 10 negatived)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The next question is
on Motion No. 13. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the
motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the
nays have it.
An hon. member: On division.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No.
13 lost on division.
(Motion No. 13 negatived)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): We will now proceed
to the motions in Group No. 2.
Mr. Rick Laliberte (Churchill River, NDP) moved:
That Bill C-27, in Clause 14, be amended by adding after line 36
on page 7 the following:
“(5) Where a management plan that exists at the time this
Act comes into force sets out an area of a park as a wilderness
area, the Minister shall recommend to the Governor in Council
that the area be declared a wilderness area within two years of
the coming into force of this Act.”
That Bill C-27, in Clause 16, be amended by replacing line 47 on
page 10 with the following:
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Canadian Alliance)
moved:
That Bill C-27 be amended by adding after line 42 on page 24 the
following new clause:
“36.1 (1) No lease or licence of occupation may be granted
for the purpose of air facilities on public lands in a park
except within the aerodromes that are in existence at the time
this Act comes into force and are located within a park,
including Banff National Park of Canada and Jasper National Park
of Canada.
(2) For the purposes of public safety, the air facilities
within the existing aerodromes referred to in subsection (1)
shall continue in operation.”
That Bill C-27 be amended by adding after line 42 on page 24 the
following:
“(3) For the purposes of this section, the word “aerodrome”
has the same meaning as in the Aeronautics Act.”
Mr. Rick Laliberte (Churchill River, NDP) moved:
That Bill C-27 be amended by adding after line 23 on page 31 the
following new clause:
“58.1 Section 2 of the Act is amended by adding the
following in alphabetical order:
“ecological integrity” “intégrité écologique” “ecological
integrity” means, with respect to a park, a condition that is
determined to be characteristic of its natural region and likely
to persist, including abiotic components and the composition and
abundance of native species and biological communities, rates of
change and supporting processes.”
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Debate. Is the
House ready for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The question is on
Motion No. 6.
[Translation]
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I rise on a
point of order. Did you say on debate?
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Yes, I asked if an hon.
member wished to speak. I did not see five members rise. I am
sorry, I did not see the hon. member.
[English]
May we have the unanimous consent of the House to revert to
debate to hear the hon. member for Portneuf?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
[Translation]
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I will only
take a few seconds to say that I did not in any way intend to
minimize the excellent representations made by the people from
the Mingan Archipelago. I simply wanted to point out that their
MP chartered a plane to allow them to appear before the
committee.
I think that is most praiseworthy on the part of the member, and
that it needed to be pointed out in the House, without
minimizing the excellent representations made by these
witnesses.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): For the people in
the gallery and the people watching, much of what is being done
here at this moment is being done on a pro forma basis through
negotiation with all parties. Members of the House and people
who are familiar with the bill understand what is transpiring.
Much of what we are doing now is a matter of legal formality and
that is why it is going through so quickly.
I want to assure people in the gallery and people watching at
home that this is not being done in a cavalier fashion.
Is the House ready for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The question is on
Motion No. 6.
Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
1320
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the
nays have it.
An hon. member: On division.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No.
6 lost on division.
(Motion No. 6 negatived)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The next question is
on Motion No. 7. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the
motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the
nays have it.
An hon. member: On division.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No.
7 lost on division.
(Motion No. 7 negatived)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The next question is
on Motion No. 11. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the
motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the
nays have it.
An hon. member: On division.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No.
11 lost. I therefore declare Motion No. 12 lost on division.
(Motion No. 11 negatived)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The next question is
on Motion No. 15. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the
motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the
nays have it.
An hon. member: On division.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No.
15 lost.
(Motion No. 15 negatived)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I will now put to
the House the motions in Group No. 3.
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Canadian Alliance)
moved:
That Bill C-27, in Clause 18, be amended by replacing line 31 on
page 14 with the following:
“18. (1) The Minister may designate persons”
That Bill C-27, in Clause 18, be amended by adding after line 40
on page 14 the following:
“(2) For greater certainty, park wardens are entitled to (a)
the protection provided by the law to peace officers within the
meaning of the Criminal Code; and (b) access to all of the
resources that are required, including the possession of a
firearm, for the enforcement of this Act and the regulations in
any part of Canada and for the preservation and maintenance of
the public peace in parks.”
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is the
House ready for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The question is on
Motion No. 8. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the
motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the
nays have it.
An hon. member: On division.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No.
8 lost. I therefore declare Motion No. 9 lost.
(Motion No. 8 negatived)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I will now put the
motions in Group No. 4 to the House.
[Translation]
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ) moved:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is it the pleasure of the
House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour of the
motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed will
please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the nays have
it.
An hon. member: On division.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No. 14
lost.
(Motion No. 14 negatived)
[English]
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (for the Minister of Canadian
Heritage) moved that the bill, as amended, be concurred in at
report stage with a further amendment.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is it the pleasure
of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the
yeas have it.
An hon. member: On division.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare the motion
carried on division.
(Motion agreed to)
* * *
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Bob Kilger (Stormont—Dundas—Charlottenburgh, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Discussions have taken
place between the parties and there is agreement for the
following. I move, pursuant to Standing Order 45(7), to further
defer the recorded divisions scheduled for Monday, June 12, 2000
on Motion No. 237 and Bill C-214 until the end of Government
Orders on Tuesday, June 13, 2000.
1325
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The House has heard
the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to
adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to)
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I
believe you would find unanimous consent to see the clock as
being 1.30 p.m.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is there unanimous
consent to see the clock as 1.30 p.m.?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): We will now proceed
to Private Members' Business.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[English]
CULTURAL INDUSTRY
The House resumed from May 1 consideration of the motion.
Mrs. Karen Redman (Kitchener Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I am pleased to speak to Motion No. 259 which states that the
government should give consideration to exempting up to $30,000
of income from income tax as a gesture of support for those
artists, writers and performers who work in Canada's cultural
industry. The motion has been brought forward by the member for
Kamloops—Thompson and Highland Valleys.
On the surface it seems to be a proposal which is very much in
harmony with the government's stand on the arts. The government
recognizes the importance of providing continued support to
individuals engaged in the arts. However, this is not the way to
do it.
The government is committed to ensuring that Canadians have
Canadian choices and that they are connected to other Canadians
and to the very diverse Canadian culture. This means focusing on
the creation of Canadian content and supporting creators, artists
and innovators. It means enhancing the capacity of cultural
organizations, cultural industries and cultural institutions to
build and retain audiences and to seize both the opportunities
and the challenges created by the globalization and new
technologies which are unfolding. It means finding ways to build
connections among Canadians across communities, to connect
Canadians to the world, and to engage young Canadians in all that
we do.
Our government's commitment also means taking into account the
uniqueness and the distinct character of Quebec culture and the
needs and circumstances of French language communities in other
parts of Canada as well.
Taken at a glance, the proposed tax exemption for artists,
writers and performers could be seen to be very consistent with
these stated objectives. However on closer inspection, it
becomes less clear that such a tax exemption is warranted.
Since 1997 I have been a member of the Standing Committee on
Finance. It is interesting that this motion has come forward for
consideration by the government, yet creators have come to the
finance committee and asked us to look at initiatives such as
income averaging or indeed some of the aspects of the Irish
model.
Income earned by artists, writers, composers and sculptors from
the sale of their work is exempt from tax in Ireland only under
certain circumstances. In Ireland, section 195 of the Taxes
Consolidation Act, 1997, empowers revenue to determine that
artistic works which are original and creative are recognized as
having cultural or artistic merit and may have an exemption from
tax within the year in which the claim is made.
It is done through the minister of finance. It is determined in
consultation with a board or body of persons that are
knowledgeable in this area of art. It looks at the sale of
artistic endeavours such as a book or other writing, a play, a
musical composition, a painting or other like picture, and a
sculpture. It also has a proviso that claimants for artists
exemption must be resident or ordinarily reside and be domiciled
in Ireland.
These are initiatives the government has been encouraged to look
at and I believe there is merit in doing so. However the motion
before us is simply a tax exemption of up to $30,000 for artists
who reside in Canada.
I would emphasize that the tax system already has features,
several unique measures as a matter of fact, that support our
artistic and cultural sectors.
1330
Certified Canadian film productions produced by qualified
corporations have a special refundable tax credit which covers up
to 12% of the cost of the eligible production. It replaces a
previous system of capital cost allowance deductions for certain
investors that was in place until 1995 and it maximises a benefit
for the eligible productions.
As well, Canadian art objects purchased by businesses for
display purposes are eligible for a generous depreciation
allowance, notwithstanding the fact that such art objects may
retain their value or indeed appreciate in value over time. This
provision enhances the exposure given to Canadian art.
The designation of the national arts service organization
provides national not for profit art groups with the same tax
treatment as charities. This has done much to enhance that
sector. Artists may deduct the cost of creating a work of art in
the year incurred even though the work may not be sold until a
later date. This provision recognizes the difficulty that many
artists face when attributing costs to a particular work and
carrying inventory over long periods of time.
Employed artists and musicians may deduct certain expenses
against income from that employment notwithstanding that most
employment expenses are non-deductible. Specifically, employed
artists may deduct expenses related to their artistic endeavours
up to an annual limit.
Employed musicians are able to claim the cost of maintenance,
rental, insurance and capital cost allowance on musical
instruments. The special deductions recognize that these
expenses are required in order to carry on employment in these
fields.
Artists may also elect to value charitable gifts from their
inventory at any amount up to their fair market value. This
provision removes an obstacle for artists donating their works to
charities, museums and other public institutions.
Certain objects certified to be of cultural importance to Canada
are exempt from capital gains tax if donated to a designated
museum or art gallery. This provision helps to ensure that
artistic works of cultural significance are retained in Canada.
These are important provisions. They demonstrate that the
government has taken steps to ensure that the tax system does not
form a barrier to engaging in artistic endeavours. However the
proposal before us today does not seek to address a specified
problem faced by artists. Rather, the proposal is for a
substantial tax exemption for all individuals recognized as
artists. Such a tax exemption would raise significant concerns
in the context of the income tax policy and administration.
From the perspective of equity I am sure we would all agree that
the tax system should as much as possible treat individuals in
similar circumstances in a similar manner. This means that
individuals with comparable incomes and needs should pay
comparable amounts of tax. However under the proposed exemption
an eligible artist would pay substantially less tax than another
individual in a comparable position who is not an artist. This
would seem to me to be highly unfair.
I am certain that other taxpayers would also see this issue in
the same light. It would be very difficult to explain to a hard
working taxpayer why she should be faced with a tax liability
while another individual at the same income did not pay any tax
whatsoever simply because she was an artist. For this reason
alone I find the proposal before us today to be flawed.
Moreover, the proposal is overly vague in several crucial
aspects. First, the proposed exemption would require that some
definition of eligible artists be developed. However the motion
makes no reference to this definition.
It is true that some definitions already exist. For example, in
the Status of the Artist Act and in the guidelines used by the
Canada Council for the Arts there are definitions, but these
definitions were not created with the income tax system in mind
and would likely have to be revised.
It is difficult to imagine that any definition could be
developed that would satisfactorily address all needs of
interested parties. Without a doubt any definition that excluded
a given group or artistic activity would be subject to dispute
and would be very difficult both to administer and to control.
1335
The motion before us does not specify whether the proposed
exemption is to apply to the income from the artists' endeavours
only or to all income earned by eligible individuals no matter
how they are defined.
Limiting the exemption to artistic income would seem to be too
restrictive, especially by part time artists and performers.
However extending the exemption to all sources of income seems to
be overly generous and would encapture people that perhaps do art
as a hobby or simply as a sideline. These are just a few of the
things that make the motion before us so problematic.
In conclusion, while encouraging our arts and cultural
industries has been and will continue to be an important priority
for Canadians, I do not believe the proposed tax exemption would
be an appropriate policy tool and I do not support it.
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am
very happy to enter the debate and to speak in favour of Motion
No. 259 as put forward by the member for Kamloops, Thompson and
Highland Valleys. I know the hon. member spent a great deal of
time speaking to arts and cultural groups across the country. In
fact it was at their request that the member put the idea forward
for debate in the House of Commons.
Motion No. 259 has the endorsation of 30 arts and cultural
groups across the country such as the Canadian Conference of the
Arts, the Writer's Union of Canada, the Society of Composers,
Authors and Music Publishers of Canada, and the Canada Council
for the Arts, just to name a few of the many groups that have
come forward asking parliament to recognize in a meaningful way
through our tax system the contribution arts and cultural
communities make not only to the Canadian cultural fabric but to
the Canadian economy.
Motion No. 259 seeks to amend the tax system to introduce tax
fairness for our working creators. It would encourage an income
tax reduction that would be similar to that already offered in
the province of Quebec for working artists. Once again the
province of Quebec seems to be leading the way in this type of
issue. At least it has recognized the value of the cultural
industry in that province and has made meaningful changes to that
effect.
Motion No. 259 would benefit those artists and creators who earn
very little income. We are only aware of the artists who have
reached celebrity status. Granted, there are some musicians and
artists who become famous and earn a good deal of money, but the
incomes of most creators are over 50% below the national average.
Just by way of an example, the Writer's Union of Canada states
that the average annual income of writers is less than $12,000 a
year. According to Statistics Canada visual artists earned on
average $12,633 in 1995. The Crafts Association of British
Columbia states that 50% of its members reported earnings of less
than $5,000 per year from their craft and 31% reported earnings
of between $5,000 and $20,000 a year. That is the reality of
most people working in the arts and cultural communities.
Whether one is a writer, a visual artist, a filmmaker, a musician
or a dancer, that is the reality.
If we want people to be in those positions and if we value the
cultural institutions by which Canada identifies itself and in
which Canada takes great pride, we need to support those
individuals in a meaningful way.
Motion No. 259 recommends that up to $30,000 of income be
exempt. This would change the basic personal exemption to up to
$30,000 of income earned from the activity for which the person
is registered, not of their total overall earnings. If they are
earning supplementary income from another type of work obviously
they would be subject to the same tax as everyone else. This is
the actual copyrighted work that they are producing as an aspect
of the art in which they are involved.
I think it is very realistic. Other countries have undertaken it
and we have some evidence to draw from as to what it would
actually cost or what the pick-up would be were this offered to
the artistic community.
1340
One of the most famous examples is Ireland. Ireland, as
everyone knows, is well known for its arts, culture, music, great
writers and great poets. People in its cultural sector are
valued, treasured, appreciated and accurately reflected in the
income tax system. I have some examples of how the Irish system
works, but it would be safe to say that we could look to this
model.
The motion put forward by the member from Kamloops is vague for
a purpose. The member genuinely wanted to stimulate this debate.
He did not want to say what we should be doing or how it must be
done. He wanted us to speak in the House openly and freely about
whether or not we value our creators in the cultural sector.
People working in the arts and cultural sectors make up 8% of
our total labour force. It is actually larger than forestry,
mining and agriculture combined. I do not believe we recognize
them and the contribution they make not just to our quality of
life, which is important, but to our economy.
It would be a very small cost factor. I believe there is no
ceiling in Ireland on its tax break for income earned from
artistic endeavours, as we are recommending. Even there where
they have many people involved in the arts and cultural sector
and with no ceiling it only costs about $12 million Canadian per
year. Frankly that is not a great deal of money when we consider
the contribution it makes to the economy of Ireland. Perhaps we
could view the impact of the program being recommended by the
member from Kamloops in a comparable light. That would be the
approximate price tag we would be contemplating.
We believe that our arts and cultural community has been
underrecognized. We expect artists to be there when we want to
be entertained. We assume they will always be there because for
the love of their craft they are willing to starve and live in
some garret, the stereotype of the starving artist. That is not
necessary. If we value the product we should be demonstrating
that realistically with a tax exemption.
Other industries receive exemptions because we value them. There
are capital gains exemptions for businesses and so on. People in
other occupations enjoy that type of tax credit. It is a
recognition of the way we value them in our community, but we do
not do the same with artists, musicians, dancers and so on.
Some artists face real costs to carry on their craft. Musicians
these days, whether violinists or pianists, may have $100,000
invested in their instruments. They are paid abysmally because I
do not think there is a symphony orchestra that is adequately
funded. After studying all their lives and investing an absolute
fortune in a quality instrument they are virtually paid peanuts.
The motion put forward by the member from Kamloops in some way
takes some steps toward recognizing the hardship faced by those
who create in our arts and cultural sector. We value them. The
NDP caucus is quite interested in this motion. I was very
pleased to be able to speak to it today. We are disappointed
that the first member who spoke from the Liberal side dismissed
the idea without a great deal of thought or getting into it in
any detail.
The only way we could investigate this fully is to deal with it
at the finance committee. If the motion were allowed to pass at
second reading we could do that. I point out that parliament has
dealt with the issue in the past. In 1982 we all remember the
Applebaum-Hébert commission on Canadian cultural life. It
pointed out that the largest subsidy to the cultural life in
Canada came not from governments, corporations or other patrons,
but from the artists themselves through their unpaid and
underpaid labour. As early as 1982 we were seized of this issue.
1345
In 1999 the heritage committee's report stated:
From the Committee's standpoint, investing in the arts is no less
important than investing in the social sciences humanities, the
purer sciences or medicines. The Committee is also aware of the
long term commitment made to the researchers and scholars by
other federal government agencies and looks for a similar level
of commitment to Canadian artists.
As recently as 1999 the heritage committee recommended this in
its report, so I was very surprised and disappointed when the
first speaker on this motion today simply said that it was not
meant to be. Maybe she has not researched the recent comments of
the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.
I have pointed out how much I admire the hon. member for
Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys for bringing the motion
forward. It is an important debate. Other countries do it. The
province of Quebec does it. I believe that the Government of
Canada should show support for those involved in the arts and
cultural industries.
* * *
[Translation]
OFFICIAL REPORT
Mrs. Francine Lalonde: Mr. Speaker, the speech I made last night
around 5.30 p.m. concerning the opposition motion is reported in
today's Hansard.
I said “Economic Development Bank” but meant “Federal
Development Bank”. I would like to have this correction made to
Hansard if possible. The blues were not in when we left
yesterday, at 7 p.m., and this morning, Hansard had already been
printed. For posterity I would like this change to be made.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): It is certainly now
on the record, although I am not sure just what we can do. The
member has it now on the record so that in any event her position
is settled.
* * *
CULTURAL INDUSTRY
The House resumed consideration of the motion.
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker,
I am honoured to represent the wonderful people of the riding of
Elk Island in the debate on a motion put forward by the hon.
member for Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys.
The motion is very interesting. The hon. member is proposing
that some people in the country who are not making enough money
to make a decent living should have a tax break. I have to say
that I very much agree with that part of the motion.
The hon. member is talking about people in the arts and
entertainment industry. People are working full time trying to
make a living and sometimes their income level is really
challenged. It is very tough for them to make ends meet, yet the
Liberals are still quite content to reach into those people's
pockets and take some of their meagre earnings and use them to
build fountains in Shawinigan and other projects of their liking.
I find this really passing strange. It is an interesting
comment on the Prime Minister and on Liberal thinking when we
contemplate what the Prime Minister said in Europe just a few
days ago. He said something about people who want to keep more
of their own earnings being greedy. That was the word he used.
An artist who makes $13,000 or $15,000 a year has to pay several
hundred dollars in income tax so that the Prime Minister can take
the money to spend in his riding. He attributes the word greed
to the artist who would like to keep some of his or her own
earnings, but he somehow does not see that there is any element
of greed in his own wanting to use that very same money for his
nefarious purposes.
I also think of single moms. There are many single parents and
most of them are single moms. Many of them make less than
$20,000 yet the Liberal government with its so-called social
conscience is quite content to lift from the pockets of those
people who make less than $20,000 a year some $6 billion or $7
billion a year in income tax. How shameful.
1350
An NDP member is saying that we need to be less greedy and let
artists keep more of their earnings. I simply say it is time we
replaced the Liberal government which cannot see past anything
that moves without wanting to regulate it and tax it. In
principle I agree with what the NDP member is proposing in the
motion, which is is to reduce taxes, particularly for those
people who have a very limited income.
I could hardly let this moment pass by without mentioning our
solution 17. For all intents and purposes it would take almost
two million taxpayers off the tax rolls completely, giving them a
100% reduction in taxes. When the Liberals knock our solution 17
plan, they are trying to get a message to Canadians to be
suspicious of our plan, to not accept it and to not trust us to
form the government. I really wonder about the Minister of
Finance and the Prime Minister who will not openly and honestly
deal with the facts and let the people of Canada decide. Instead
they paint a bunch of pictures of our plan which are quite
different from what the plan actually is.
There is no doubt that low income Canadians, among them artists,
need a substantial tax break. The member for Kamloops, Thompson
and Highland Valleys has suggested that the tax break should be
100% up to $30,000 of earnings. I have a bit of a problem with
that. As much as I agree with the concept of reducing the taxes,
I am not in favour of saying let us find which groups we should
give this benefit to.
The Liberals like to line up different groups based on their
race. They say that one race will have a better advantage over
another one when it comes to hiring or benefits and other things
with respect to the government. The NDP would probably look at
people in terms of need, but it is only prepared to look at some
individuals who have needs. In this case it is looking at people
in the artistic community.
Let us not hesitate to say it does not matter whether the person
is an artist, a mechanic, an unemployed nurse or a part time
worker at a fast food place. If the person does not make enough
money to adequately provide for his or her family, then there is
still something fundamentally wrong with the government taking a
certain portion of the earnings and saying that it wants it
anyway.
The concept of increasing the basic exemption is very good. This
is where solution 17 shines. For an individual, we would take
that basic exemption right up to $10,000. Many students, artists
and other people who have a small income would be totally exempt
from paying federal income tax, which is as it should be. The
remainder would pay the lowest rate. We are currently proposing
17% for that rate. That is why we have named it solution 17.
Artists of course have other things that affect them. Depending
on the area where their work takes place, many of them incur
expenses while they are producing their art. Whether one is a
writer or a painter, it sometimes takes a year or two or three to
earn an income. Producing the work takes that much time and it
is only when the work is sold that there is income.
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Perhaps we would be much wiser if we looked not only at artists,
but at people whose income falls into the category of a large
income over longer intervals of time and no income for a long
time and then a spurt of larger income and then again a time of
limited or no income.
Perhaps we should re-design our income tax system so there can
be some long term averaging of both income and expenses. The
annual exemption of our proposed $10,000 per year would in effect
give the artist a $30,000 exemption over three years, the time
that it takes to produce the work.
Obviously we need to deal with this issue not only for artists
but for all Canadians. Although I agree in principle with what
the hon. member is trying to do, I am going to have to vote
against the motion. The simple reason is that I do not think it
is right to single out one occupational group as a favoured group
who can earn up to $30,000 without paying income tax, but
everyone else regardless of how poor they are or what their
obligations are to their children and families have to pay taxes
on an amount of money after whatever the basic exemption is.
The basic exemption is around $8,000 under the Liberals. It
would be $10,000 per adult under our plan. A family, a mom and a
dad and two kids, under our plan would have a tax free income up
to $26,000. That is very close to what the hon. member is
proposing for artists. The difference is that our plan would
apply to everyone in that income category. That would be a much
more fair way of dealing with it.
I regret that my time is up. I would like to talk a bit more
about some of the supports that are available to artists but I
will have to leave that for other members.
[Translation]
Mr. Jean Dubé (Madawaska—Restigouche, PC): Mr. Speaker, on
behalf of my constituents in the riding of Madawaska—Restigouche,
New Brunswick, it gives me great pleasure to speak in favour of
Motion No. 259, a votable motion put forward by the hon. member
for Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys.
[English]
It is very important to recognize that civilized societies have
always supported the arts and culture. It is a tradition that
has been valued throughout history. We should seek to maintain
and improve this with policies, not specifically tax policies,
but policies that support and encourage culture and the
development of the arts in Canada, which has had a long and
diverse history.
As an Atlantic Canadian from New Brunswick, one of the most
culturally diverse and productive regions in Canada, we value a
tradition of excellence. There are economic opportunities for
all Canadians in recognizing and harnessing the power of the arts
and cultural community, whether it is the Lion King in
Toronto, or musicians like the Rankin Family and Natasha
St-Pierre in Atlantic Canada who started from very humble means
and have done extremely well, or artists who have reached
international acclaim, like Roch Voisine who was born in my
riding in New Brunswick. These types of success stories are
worthy of recognition. However, we must do more to help artists
when they are starting off.
The motion is very sound from the perspective of the hon.
member's desire to help. However, there are some difficulties in
its implementation and I would like to point out a couple of
them.
It is very nebulous in terms of describing who qualifies and how
the term artist fits a specific individual and whether or not
that can be defined and the definition defended effectively.
1400
The hon. member also pointed out the financial roller coaster
artists are on. An artist may go on for several years without
payment and then receive a lump sum payment recognizing
contributions made over a period of time. The best way to
address that would be through income averaging. This would also
address other people who are similarly predisposed through the
nature of their business to receive lump sum payments in
recognition of work completed over a period of several years.
Income averaging would be the best way to address it.
The average income of an artist in Canada is currently estimated
at about $13,000. The issue raised by the hon. member can be
addressed in a more broadly based way by significantly raising
the basic personal exemption for all Canadians. The Progressive
Conservative Party's task force which reported in January
recommended an increase to $12,000. This would help
significantly. That being the case, we should move over a period
of time to raise the basic personal exemption.
The hon. member also recognized that tax relief could play an
important role in helping artists pursue their chosen field of
culture and art and in keeping them in Canada. It indicates that
he recognizes the importance of lowering taxes for all Canadians
to ensure that Canadians, regardless of career or life pursuit,
can choose to stay and prosper in Canada. Whether it is a dot
com, e-commerce, biotech or traditional industry, Canadians could
have a future in Canada.
The hon. member demonstrated clearly that he recognizes the
important role that tax policy plays in encouraging and
discouraging pursuit of particular activities. In that vein I
think he would agree that we should continue to be vigilant in
ensuring that the tax burdens of Canadians are not excessive when
compared to those of other countries.
Whether Canadians wish to pursue careers in the arts or the
traditional economy we want them to be free to do so in Canada. I
am sure he would share with me the need to reduce taxes for all
Canadians based on his basic premise that decreasing taxes could
help to encourage people, in this case artists, to pursue and
maintain a certain level of activity.
The issue of capital gains tax needs to be addressed as well. In
Canada we currently tax at 50% of the regular inclusion rate for
the donation of publicly traded or listed securities to
charitable foundations or institutions. Whether it is a
hospital, a university, an endowment fund or a cultural activity,
we tax 50% of capital gains.
Inclusion rates are taxed in Canada for donation of publicly
traded or listed securities. In the U.S. there is absolutely no
capital gains taxes on contributions of listed securities. This
has led over the years to a significant disadvantage for Canadian
universities, Canadian hospitals and the Canadian arts community.
It has created a disincentive for high net worth Canadians to
contribute listed shares of publicly traded companies to the
cultural sector, health foundations and universities.
At the time of the prebudget report the Progressive Conservative
dissenting report recommended the elimination of capital gains
tax on gifts of listed securities. That would go a long way
toward encouraging high net worth individuals in Canada and
Canadians of relatively modest means who may have done very well
in equity investing in recent years to help foster a greater
environment for cultural activity in Canada. That is one way
this could be addressed.
1405
I would also be interested in exploring the examples of other
countries relative to special tax exemptions for those engaged in
the arts. By and large there is only one party in the House of
Commons which consistently opposes any support for the Canadian
arts. I expect it would probably kick a member out of its caucus
if it were discovered that he or she had gone to live theatre.
It is important that there be almost an all-party commitment to
the arts and cultural community in the House of Commons. While I
may disagree with the particular vehicle set forth by the hon.
member to help create a better environment for cultural and
artistic diversity in Canada, I assure him that the Progressive
Conservative Party of Canada remains committed to work with
altruistically oriented parties in the House.
We must seek better ways to support and encourage the arts and
all types of creative endeavours for Canadians, whether they be
involved in graphic arts, the dot com universe, weaving,
painting, dancing or playwriting.
One of the things that defines us as Canadians is our unique
culture and vibrancy from coast to coast to coast, which we shall
continue to have with the proper support and encouragement of all
Canadians.
Mr. Rick Laliberte (Churchill River, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I
rise today to lend my support to Motion No. 259 of my hon.
colleague from Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys. I will
state it clearly for the record:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should give
consideration to exempting up to $30,000 of income from income
tax as a gesture of support for those artists, writers and
performers who work in Canada's cultural industry.
My reason for speaking today is to show a gesture of support for
our artists, writers and performers. Not enough can be said for
the artistic and gifted people in Canada who are continually
contributing to an industry that is growing in leaps and bounds
with the new media, the Internet and the information age
interconnection. There is a new aspect of visual, artistic,
audio and video presentations, real time, and an international
sharing of information.
If language is a barrier among our communities and our youth,
the whole aspect of graphics, pictures, audio visual
presentations and music provides an international language which
breaks the boundaries. A flourishing industry starts with the
planting of a seed in the form of the God-given talents of young
people who find their calling, their true gifts and their
strength. Maybe it is a gift they have been given in the
artistic field.
Our society is on an income base. It is a state of dependency.
In any city transactions involving milk, water, clothes, housing
or electricity are dependent on money. To live in a city one
needs money. Whether it be Paris, New York, Montreal, Vancouver,
Edmonton, Lethbridge or Hull, young people are trying to find
their calling. This is an opportunity for Canada to give a
gesture of support to artists. They may find they have to scrape
their elbows and their knees to provide food and shelter for
themselves, their immediate families, their communities or their
extended families such as their elderly parents or grandparents.
Artists are probably the most generous in terms of charities.
Artists donate their works of art as a gesture of charity to
local events such as silent auctions. The government should show
a gesture of support by assisting them in finding their calling.
1410
For example, an artist working in oils may find that those
techniques are the best templates for the colours on a modem to
be transferred internationally on a desk top computer in
multi-media. Colours and hues can be controlled by technology as
opposed to mixing oil paints on a palette.
Some may have to go for some upgrading in new styles or
techniques. They may have to broaden their horizons by going to
a big city or venturing into a new part of Canada. It would take
considerable expense to make this happen. As a nation we could
make a gesture of freedom to our artists. Basically it would
allow them the freedom of expression and the freedom to try new
ways.
I would like to cast a good light on our artists and their
gifts. At a younger age when choosing my career path and
realizing my aspirations for the gifts I was given I was told
that an artist is a conceptualizer. For example, someone dreamt
up the architectural concept of the parliament buildings.
Somebody expressed it on paper or in words. That gesture was
supported and it grew into the buildings on Parliament Hill. The
architecture of these buildings are of artistic value. They also
have a purpose.
Our artists may have artistic talents but they also have
integrity and serve a purpose in terms of the nation and the new
technologies. There has to be a purpose. It is not for mere
entertainment or mere entrepreneurial skills that our artists
work on their concepts.
I come from a region of Canada which is known for its beadwork,
crafts, clothing such as moccasins and dream catchers, where
people consider their talents to be a gift and have included
purpose in their art such as dream catchers trapping the good
dreams and screening out the bad ones in a child's room or the
parents' room. The dream catcher is an artistic form but also
has a spiritual purpose in making our lives better.
The government has an opportunity to make a gesture of support
for our artisans, our playwrights, our singers and our poets. I
also think of our recently lost colleague and brother, the late
Mr. Maurice Richard.
Performers in television and movies are growing in numbers and
attracting the motion picture industry here. Let us support
them. They are seasonal jobs. Some people might find summer
work in shooting locations throughout the country but may fall
short trying to make ends meet.
The exemption of $30,000 worth of income could be our gesture to
encourage artists, writers and performers to say they have a
rightful place and that we count on them to conceptualize our
future and make out lives better in the country we call home,
Canada.
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
Motion No. 259 in the name of the member for Kamloops—Thompson
and Highland Valleys is a votable item. We are in the second
hour of debate. A request has been made by the member in
question and has been respected by all the parties of the House
to preserve the last hour of debate which of course would only
occur I suspect some time in the fall.
I believe you would find unanimous consent of the
House to see the clock as being 2.30 p.m.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The time provided
for the consideration of Private Members' Business has now
expired and the order is dropped to the bottom of the order of
precedence on the order paper.
This House stands adjourned until Monday next at 11.00 a.m.,
pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 2.15 p.m.)