36th Parliament, 2nd Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 52
CONTENTS
Friday, February 18, 2000
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
1005
| CITIZENSHIP OF CANADA ACT
|
| Bill C-16. Second reading
|
| Hon. Martin Cauchon |
| Mr. Andrew Telegdi |
1010
1015
1020
| Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
1025
1030
1035
1040
1045
1050
1055
| Mr. Bernard Bigras |
| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| IMMIGRATION
|
| Mr. Marcel Proulx |
1100
| REFUGEES
|
| Mr. Ted White |
| NORTEL NETWORKS
|
| Mr. David Pratt |
| THE LATE CHARLES SCHULZ
|
| Mr. Eugène Bellemare |
| MENINGITIS
|
| Mr. Peter Goldring |
| THE ENVIRONMENT
|
| Ms. Paddy Torsney |
1105
| “CHARTRAND ET SIMONNE” MINISERIES
|
| Mr. Maurice Dumas |
| MOLSON BREWERIES
|
| Mr. Mac Harb |
| GOVERNMENT GRANTS
|
| Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
| LEBANON
|
| Mr. Mark Assad |
1110
| FARMERS
|
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Ms. Hélène Alarie |
| HARNESS RACING
|
| Mr. Hec Clouthier |
| LIGHTHOUSES
|
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
1115
| WHITBY, ONTARIO
|
| Mrs. Judi Longfield |
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Jay Hill |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Jay Hill |
1120
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Paul Crête |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Paul Crête |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
1125
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Ms. Val Meredith |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Ms. Val Meredith |
1130
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Grant McNally |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Charlie Penson |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
1135
| HERITAGE CANADA
|
| Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire |
| Hon. Sheila Copps |
| Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire |
| Hon. Sheila Copps |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Philip Mayfield |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| PARENTAL LEAVE
|
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT
|
| Ms. Judy Sgro |
1140
| Mr. Yvon Charbonneau |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. Howard Hilstrom |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Roy Bailey |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mrs. Michelle Dockrill |
| Hon. George S. Baker |
| Mrs. Michelle Dockrill |
| Hon. George S. Baker |
1145
| Mr. Jean Dubé |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Jean Dubé |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| THE ENVIRONMENT
|
| Mr. Rick Limoges |
| Hon. David Anderson |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| AUDIOVISUAL PRODUCTIONS
|
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
1150
| Hon. Sheila Copps |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| AIRLINE INDUSTRY
|
| Mr. Marcel Proulx |
| Hon. David M. Collenette |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. John Williams |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| ACID RAIN
|
| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
1155
| Hon. David Anderson |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Jean Dubé |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| HOMELESSNESS
|
| Ms. Marlene Catterall |
| Ms. Carolyn Parrish |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
1200
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| BILL C-20
|
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| POINTS OF ORDER
|
| Oral Question Period
|
| Mr. Jay Hill |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Hon. Don Boudria |
1205
| Mr. John Williams |
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
1210
1215
1220
| Tabling of documents
|
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
| Mr. Réal Ménard |
| Mr. Yvan Loubier |
| Mr. Benoît Sauvageau |
| Human Resources Development
|
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Tabling of Documents
|
| Mr. René Laurin |
| Mrs. Monique Guay |
| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
1225
| Mrs. Pauline Picard |
| Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien |
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
1230
| Mrs. Maud Debien |
| Mr. Claude Bachand |
1235
| Mr. Yves Rocheleau |
| Mr. Bernard Bigras |
1240
| Mr. Antoine Dubé |
| Mr. Paul Crête |
1245
| Mr. Gilles-A. Perron |
| Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand |
1250
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
| Mr. Odina Desrochers |
1255
1300
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
1305
| CRIMINAL CODE
|
| Bill C-433. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
| PETITIONS
|
| Equality
|
| Mr. Peter Goldring |
| Merchant Navy Veterans
|
| Mr. Peter Goldring |
| Genetically Engineered Foods
|
| Mrs. Monique Guay |
| Child Pornography
|
| Mr. John Maloney |
| Mr. Darrel Stinson |
1310
| National Highways
|
| Mr. Darrel Stinson |
| Genetically Engineered Food Labelling
|
| Mrs. Pauline Picard |
| Mr. Yves Rocheleau |
| Immigration
|
| Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
| Taxation
|
| Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
| Genetically engineered Food Labelling
|
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
| Canada Post Corporation
|
| Mr. Richard Marceau |
| Genetically Engineered Food Labelling
|
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Ms. Carolyn Parrish |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| MUNICIPAL GRANTS ACT
|
| Bill C-10. Third Reading
|
| Hon. David M. Collenette |
1315
| Mr. Ghislain Lebel |
1320
1325
1330
| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
| WESTRAY MINE
|
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Motion
|
1335
1340
1345
| Mr. John Maloney |
1350
1355
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| MODERNIZATION OF BENEFITS AND OBLIGATIONS ACT
|
| Bill C-23—Notice of time allocation
|
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
| WESTRAY MINE
|
| Motion
|
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
1400
1405
| Mrs. Michelle Dockrill |
1410
1415
| Mr. Brent St. Denis |
1420
1425
| Mr. Pat Martin |
| Appendix
|
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 52
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Friday, February 18, 2000
The House met at 10 a.m.
Prayers
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
1005
[English]
CITIZENSHIP OF CANADA ACT
Hon. Martin Cauchon (for the Minister of Citizenship and
Immigration) moved that Bill C-16, an act respecting Canadian
citizenship, be read the second time and referred to a committee.
Mr. Andrew Telegdi (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Citizenship and Immigration, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I am proud
to have this opportunity on behalf of the Minister of Citizenship
and Immigration to open debate on Bill C-16, the citizenship of
Canada act.
To me and to so many Canadians from whom I have heard,
citizenship is about truly belonging to this society. It is
anchored in allegiance to the values which Canadians share. It
is a concept with real meaning and it is a proud celebration of
what it means to be Canadian.
That makes citizenship far more than just a piece of paper, more
than just some box to be checked off on a form, more than a
convenience for international travel. It makes the law on
citizenship one of our most fundamental laws. Our citizenship
law sets the ground rules for those who can truly call themselves
Canadian. It captures the common understanding among Canadians
about what it means to be one of us.
In 1947 a Liberal government introduced the status of Canadian
citizenship in law for the first time. It was a legislative
initiative driven by the vision and energy of Mr. Paul Martin Sr.
We were the first country in the Commonwealth to take that step.
That 1947 act took us through a 30 year period of immense change
in Canadian society.
In 1977, with Robert Andras as Minister of Manpower and
Immigration, the Liberal government implemented a new Citizenship
Act. That law reflected a growing sense of nationhood. It
reflected the growing equality of women under the law. It drew
on Canada's experience with our first Canadian Citizenship Act.
That act has served us well over the past two decades of even
faster evolution in our society.
However, the time has come for change, for modernization. The
time has come for an act that fully recognizes the impact of the
Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The time has come for
an act that addresses the many legal questions and administrative
issues that have emerged with experience over time. The time has
come for an act that reinforces the value of Canadian
citizenship. Bill C-16 does that.
First, let me point out that our core citizenship principles
have stood the test of time. What Canadians thought citizenship
should mean in 1947 is substantially what Canadians still think
today. Children born in Canada will still be Canadian citizens
automatically. Children born in other countries to a parent who
was born in Canada still have a right to Canadian citizenship.
Those who come to Canada later in life must be permanent
residents before they can apply for citizenship. They still must
prove their attachment to Canada. They must prove their
knowledge of our society and our values. They must prove their
knowledge of at least one of our two official languages.
[Translation]
I would remind members that the former Minister of Citizenship
and Immigration introduced Bill C-63 during the last
parliamentary session.
1010
It was intended as both an attempt to modernize the Citizenship
Act and to enhance the value of Canadian citizenship. It died
on the order paper when the House was prorogued, but not before
being the object of much discussion in this House and in
committee.
[English]
This bill is substantially similar in its intent and its major
provisions to Bill C-63. It reflects the broad consensus that
was clear in debate last time.
However, this legislation is not identical to the bill which was
before us in the last session. We have not simply slapped a new
number on an old bill.
Let me cover some of the major changes. For example, while we
still intend to strengthen the residency requirement, we have
identified room for change in how the residency requirement can
be met. Under this bill a permanent resident will have to be
physically in Canada for at least three of the six years before
applying for citizenship; not just an address, not visiting other
countries for whatever reason, but physically present here.
However, we have lengthened the period of time that people can
use to count that physical presence from five years under Bill
C-63 to six years in this bill.
We have also decided to reinstate a time credit for physical
presence for people who had some other legal status in Canada
other than that of a permanent resident. For example, someone
who was initially here as a convention refugee, on a minister's
permit or as a visitor will be able to use half of their time
under that status for up to one of the three years they need to
meet the residency requirement.
We have already made it clear that we want to give children
adopted abroad much simpler access to Canadian citizenship. The
courts have told us that we must bring down the disparities
between adopted and biological children born abroad, and we want
to do so.
However, we also want to respond to concerns raised about
previous proposals. For example, we will clearly limit
citizenship through adoption to minors only. We will make new
rules retroactive to 1977. We will include a requirement which
will ensure that an adoption is in the best interests of the
child.
Let me turn to some other changes.
We still propose a new citizenship oath, slightly modified from
the previous proposal. New citizens will swear to respect our
rights and freedoms. They will promise to uphold the values of
our democracy. They will continue to swear allegiance to Canada
and to Her Majesty the Queen.
We will alter the proposed powers of annulment and revocation.
While we still want to be able to annul the citizenship of a
person who uses a false identity or who is involved in criminal
activities under our citizenship law, we have dropped the
requirement in Bill C-63 that a person wishing to oppose the
minister's intent to annul is restricted to doing so in writing.
We also intend to make it clear that we can only revoke the
citizenship of a person who knowingly sought to deceive us.
Moreover, we will not seek to revoke the citizenship of children
at all.
For all those significant changes it is important to underline
that the major new directions to citizenship law that our
government set out in 1998 are still valid. They are still in
this bill.
We still intend to limit the number of generations of people
born outside Canada who can claim Canadian citizenship and we
still propose to clarify the conditions for those people to
formally retain Canadian citizenship.
We continue to believe that moving citizenship decision making
from a quasi-judicial process to one that is administrative makes
sense in every way. We intend to support that change by the use
of clear and consistent criteria and tests. We intend to rely
mostly on citizenship officials to carry out that process.
We see continuous roles for today's citizenship judges, men and
women who, by this bill, will be known as citizenship
commissioners.
They will have an increased role in promoting active citizenship
in the community. They will advise the minister on citizenship
issues and continue to preside over citizenship ceremonies. They
will be ambassadors of citizenship in their communities.
1015
The bill retains the proposals for streamlined review processes
for people who want to challenge decisions. If the person thinks
that there has been a simple error of fact, then he or she will
be able to apply to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration
for a review of those facts in that decision. If the person
thinks there has been an error of interpretation under law, he or
she will be able to apply to the Federal Court of Canada for a
review. Under the new system a federal court judge can require
that it be reconsidered. All those proposals are still in this
bill because they are sound and appropriate.
Let me conclude my remarks with these comments. The history of
citizenship in Canada is one of evolution and yet enduring
principles too. The 1947 act was anchored in its time. It
reflected the relative status of men and women in those days. It
reflected a world in which we saw our closest links to other
lands in which people were British subjects.
By 1977 the evolution of life in Canadian society meant it was
time for modernization. The 1977 act removed many inequities in
the old act. It brought in more consistent and equal criteria
for citizenship. It recognized that women deserved treatment and
rights to citizenship that were no different from those enjoyed
by men.
In this new millennium we need an act that is even more
modernized, more streamlined, clearer and more consistent.
[Translation]
This bill meets those requirements. The new Canada Citizenship
Act being debated today is going to enhance the value of
Canadian citizenship.
This bill is going to modernize our Citizenship Act, modernize
our processes. It is going to integrate the changes our society
has undergone, as well as our modern legislative framework and
our governmental processes.
[English]
It will remain true to the fundamental elements of what we
understand citizenship to mean. The principles at the heart of
our citizenship law have endured over more than half a century
since the Hon. Paul Martin Sr. brought in Canada's first Canada
Citizenship Act in 1946.
Under the leadership of the Right Hon. William Lyon Mackenzie
King, Canada had just proven its status as a country equal to any
other on the globe. Canadians had fought as Canadians to
liberate Europe from the evil of Nazi aggression. Other
Canadians had fought in Asia and the Pacific to defend our values
and our interests. Here at home Canadians had contributed in many
ways to the war effort.
The creation of a unique citizenship to call our own was a
fitting way to capture what our country and our people had just
accomplished. It was a fitting way for Canada to give its people
a sense of belonging rooted in this land and its people.
Canadians by birth and Canadians by choice all did their part to
earn our place on the world stage back then. They all became
citizens of this great country in 1947 for the first time ever.
Canadians by birth and Canadians by choice are doing the same
today.
The citizenship of Canada act will be about the values we share
as were its predecessors. It will be a statement about belonging
to this country as were its predecessors. It will link us all,
whether we are Canadian by birth or by choice.
[Translation]
Some 350,000 babies are born in this country every year, and
some 160,000 people apply for Canadian citizenship. Our
Citizenship Act enables more than half a million people to
become part of the great Canadian family as equals, as
Canadians.
[English]
A new citizenship law will be a fitting way to help celebrate
the new millennium. We look forward to the support of the House
on Bill C-16.
1020
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I am
very happy to talk about Bill C-16 which will replace the current
Citizenship Act, if and when it passes. There are some things
about the bill which I support and others which I do not and I
will get into that during my presentation. However there are
other issues which have to be mentioned today.
It is a clear error in judgment on the part of the government to
bring in legislation to replace the current Citizenship Act
before legislation which will overhaul the Immigration Act has
been passed by the House. The government has been saying for the
last four years in particular but really for the six years since
I have been here in Ottawa that it is going to bring forward
legislation which will provide a massive overhaul of the
Immigration Act immediately, next year. The government always
says it will be later this year or next year but this has been
going on for six years. It has not happened and it is very hard
to explain why.
The Citizenship Act changes should not come in until the changes
to the Immigration Act are made. The Citizenship Act refers to
the Immigration Act in several places.
I will talk about the unfortunate order of events and why this
has happened. The government does not seem to be willing to make
the necessary tough decisions to change the Immigration Act so it
has gone ahead with changes to the Citizenship Act so it can say
it has done something. I understand that but I do not think it
is acceptable.
As my colleague opposite has said, citizenship is something we
are all extremely proud of. Canadian citizenship is seen by many
people around the world as something they would like. Many
people cherish the thought of becoming a Canadian citizen. It is
not only Canadians who see Canadian citizenship as something of
great value, as I know all Canadians do; others would like to
become Canadian citizens.
As we put in place a new citizenship act, which this bill will
do, it is important that it is done right. The government
presented Bill C-63 in the last parliament, which was its idea of
doing it right. The government dropped that legislation because
it was so flawed and the government could not see putting it
through. That became very clear in committee.
Bill C-16 is the government's response to the problems seen in
committee. This is good, except the government has not dealt
with a lot of the problems which were pointed out again and again
in committee. I will talk about some of those things. I cannot
pretend I am going to touch on all of them but I will focus on
three or four of the main areas.
We went through the whole committee process on Bill C-63 in the
last parliament. Witnesses suggested many changes. Many
excellent suggestions were made. The government listened to a
few but not nearly enough of them. That is not acceptable for an
act which governs something as important as citizenship,
something which we are all so proud of.
I would love to see a citizenship bill which I could support.
This is not it, unless changes are made at committee which would
make it something Canadians and I could support. It is not that
important what I support as one citizen, but it is important that
the Canadian public generally support the legislation. I do not
believe this legislation is something that Canadians can support.
This bill is the second attempt and there have been some
changes, a few changes which are beneficial but not that many.
With reference to the previous legislation, I want to make it
extremely clear that it was not only witnesses but members of the
immigration committee which reviewed that legislation who pointed
out very strong concerns with Bill C-63, the predecessor to Bill
C-16. They expressed their desire for change.
1025
A few changes were implemented, but very few. In fact, there
were only three changes from Bill C-63 to Bill C-16, yet the
government dropped Bill C-63 because it was flawed. I do not
understand why it did not fix the bill before it brought it back
as Bill C-16. The bill has been re-tabled, and I say re-tabled
because there have been only three or four changes made.
There are some good changes. For example my colleague from
Dewdney—Alouette can express some claim to victory for the
change that was proposed at committee by the Mennonite community.
It requested that the new law contain measures to facilitate the
acquisition of Canadian citizenship for the people in its
community who still wished to return to the country or who had
already done so.
In essence clause 57 allows a three year period for individuals
born to Canadian parents outside of Canada between 1947 and 1977
to acquire Canadian citizenship upon application. Members of the
Mennonite community explained that very well at committee. It
was supported by the member for Dewdney—Alouette. That is a
good change. That is a committee working as it should.
One other change is that the part of Bill C-63 which allowed
bureaucrats or the minister without approval of parliament to
redefine spouse has been withdrawn from the bill. A couple of
weeks ago when I saw this bill I thought that was a positive
move. That was something my colleagues and I called for quite
strongly during the debate on Bill C-63. It was something some
Liberal members on the committee called for. It was withdrawn
and I thought we had made some progress.
Then last week Bill C-23 was tabled in the House but not in a
way that is acceptable. I then understood why that clause was
taken out of the citizenship bill. It was no longer required as
a result of the omnibus bill which would give same sex benefits
in several pieces of legislation. The modernization of benefits
and obligations act tabled by the justice minister amends 68
federal statutes, affects 20 departments and agencies and extends
benefits to same sex couples on the same basis as common law
opposite sex couples.
The government has chosen to extend benefits based on a person's
private sexual activity while excluding other types of dependent
relationships. I fail to see why it would do that. Why would it
extend these benefits on the basis of sexual activity rather than
on a relationship of dependency? That is exactly what has
happened.
The change was made to the citizenship bill which took the power
away from civil servants or the minister to make a change. That
was the right thing to do. The government has brought the
changes it is proposing to deal with that before parliament,
which is the right thing to do. However it has been done in a
way that is unacceptable to Canadians. It has been done on the
basis of sexual activity.
Former Liberal Prime Minister Trudeau said that the government
had no place in the bedrooms of the nation yet that is what Bill
C-23 does. The official opposition believes that any discussion
of extending benefits should be accompanied by an affirmation of
the definition of marriage.
1030
There was no definition of marriage in Bill C-63. Was that too
much to ask for? An opposition day motion was passed in the
House with support from all political parties which ensured that
the current definition of marriage would be retained, yet the
government has not seen fit to have that included in this new
act.
I point that out that the unacceptable part of the citizenship
bill, the former Bill C-63, was taken out, but it has not been
properly dealt with in this new citizenship bill. It is way off
target. That debate is taking place in the House as we debate
Bill C-23. I will not go into it in any great depth. The
problem has not been solved. It has been shuffled off to another
piece of legislation and the response by the government has been
inappropriate.
My colleagues and I have talked and will talk about that in
great depth as we debate that piece of legislation. That is a
positive thing that is not included in this bill. The reason for
it not being included does not leave me with a very positive
feeling.
I will get into more particulars about the bill, but I want to
talk a little more about something I mentioned at the beginning
of my speech. It is unfortunate that the citizenship legislation
came before the House before those major changes were made to the
Immigration Act. It is clearly in the wrong order. The changes
to the Immigration Act may well require more changes to the
Citizenship Act in the very near future. It is in the wrong order
because the Citizenship Act does refer to the broader, more
encompassing Immigration Act in several areas.
Beyond that, there are so many reasons that the Immigration Act
changes should be before the House today rather than the
Citizenship Act. There are serious issues facing Canadians today
regarding immigration. These issues have been pointed out by
Canadians across the country, and certainly by us here, but there
has been no response to them.
It has been recognized by various parties, including CSIS, the
RCMP and American officials who recognize and talk about the
problem, that Canada is a haven for terrorists and criminals and
is a favourite destination for people smugglers. Is that
something that makes us proud to be Canadian? I do not think so.
It is something that points out the need for changes to the
Immigration Act, changes which should have come before this bill.
Polls show that immigration has become one of the top concerns
for Canadians today. They want it fixed. Why is it not being
fixed?
Farrell Research reports 71% of greater Vancouver residents
believe the refugee system is too lax and 76% believe that Canada
has been made an easy target for people smuggling. That is no
big surprise. Canadians across the country feel like that.
Additionally, in 1998 an Environics survey revealed that 69% of
Canadians agree that many people seeking asylum in Canada are not
real refugees. That has been borne out by some of the things we
have seen over the past year where even the refugee determination
system has determined that many people making claims are not
genuine refugees. Unfortunately, many are finding their way into
our country anyway. Even if they are not accepted they are
allowed to stay.
Our formal acceptance rate for refugees is 44% which is more
than double and triple other countries that are comparable to
Canada, like the United States, Australia and New Zealand.
Forty-four per cent is high, but our acceptance rate is more
like 80%. I have explained that in committee and there is no
argument, even from officials. Only 20% of those who claim
refugee status are actually ever known to leave the country. That
means that the other 80% are allowed to stay.
Many just abandon their cases, withdraw their cases or are
refused status and just stay in the country. The end result is
the same: They are allowed to stay in our country, illegally in
many cases.
1035
We have an effective acceptance rate of 80%. The 44% who are
chosen through the system are, hopefully, genuine refugees.
However, the other 36% who make up the 80% are not. Clearly they
are not because they have never been accepted. Many have been
rejected by our system and yet they are allowed to stay. So in
effect we have that 80%.
The refugee determination system is badly broken. Why was this
not dealt with before the Citizenship Act was presented to
parliament so the Citizenship Act would be based on and fit in
with or mesh with an Immigration Act which has been overhauled?
Canadians recognize the need for that. The government recognizes
that.
For four years now the government has been saying “Maybe this
year or next year we will bring in major changes to the
Immigration Act. It has really been saying this for six years but
it has been an open promise for the last four years. Not one
change has been made. It is completely unacceptable that this
would be put forward now before those changes are made.
There is another side of the Immigration Act that demonstrates
very well that our system is not working. People who come under
the independent categories have to wade through a bureaucracy
that is unimaginable. They have to go through a process that can
take up to two and a half to three years, and many times much
longer. Often the process takes so long that people who are
needed in this country by businesses and by the country, people
who will add to our economy immediately, give up. They go to
the United States, to Australia or somewhere else because the
process there works a lot better. That is unfortunate because we
are losing good people. Why was that not fixed before we got to
the citizenship bill? It is very unfortunate that it was not.
I have heard dozens and dozens, probably hundreds, which is not
an exaggeration, of heart-rending stories of families begging to
be reunited that just cannot be reunited. These are families of
people who have qualified under the independent categories. They
will add to our economy right away. Of course they want to bring
their husbands or wives and their dependent children. Who would
not want that? Canada would expect that would happen. Often,
even after they are accepted, it takes years and years to reunify
the family. That is shameful. It causes uncalled for pain. Once
somebody is accepted as an immigrant, why on earth would the
process to bring their families in not be almost immediate? Why
would it not be a matter of a few months not years? Commonly and
most often it takes years. Why is that not fixed?
Let us look at an example. Let us talk about Leticia Cables, a
nanny who was taking sanctuary in a church in Edmonton. She is a
Filipino nanny who worked hard and was honest but who is
presently being deported by the government. She is being forced
out of this country by this government right now.
On the one hand, we have an unquestionably hardworking and
honest nanny who made a mistake but who will be given no
consideration by this minister to allow her to stay. That is
shameful. On the other hand, we have a Honduran who has been
arrested 20 times for drug trafficking, as I have heard from the
hon. member for North Vancouver, who is in our country illegally.
He is allowed to stay and has been set free. Does that make any
sense?
Where is the good management of this government? Where is the
good judgment of this government?
This is the government that will not allow this nanny to stay.
She admits that she broke a rule but that she did not know she
had done wrong. Why are we not giving her special consideration
when 1,300 criminals in 1998 were granted ministerial permits to
stay in this country? Of those 1,300 criminals, 350 were violent
offenders, murderers and rapists. Those 350 criminals were
allowed to stay under ministerial permit, but the minister will
not give this nanny a permit to stay in this country. She is
chasing her out. For what? The nanny broke a rule. I do not
believe she knew she was breaking the rule. She said that she
was given the advice by one of her employers who was a lawyer and
someone she trusted, yet this minister is chasing her out.
1040
Where are the precedents of the government when it comes to
immigration? Why does it not fix that up? It could then fix up
the Citizenship Act, because I agree that it needs fixing as
well. I cannot go on any longer about the problems with the
Immigration Act as we are dealing with the Citizenship Act.
Some hon. members: More, more.
Mr. Leon E. Benoit: Some hon. members call for more,
Madam Speaker. I could go on all day pointing out how
nonfunctional our immigration system is in the area of refugee
determination and in the area of independent immigrants being
allowed to come to our country and reuniting very quickly with
their families. It is a broken system.
I will get back to the citizenship bill that we are debating
today. We should be debating changes to the Immigration Act. I
would be happy to do that. I am ready for it. Canadians think
it is many years overdue, but here we are.
I will talk specifically about three different areas of the
citizenship bill. The first is clause 6(1)(b) in relation to
residency. This was an area where there were a lot of concerns
expressed at committee. I know my colleague, the hon. member for
Dewdney—Alouette and my other colleague from Calgary, who were
both on the committee at times throughout the debate on this
bill, know that there was a lot of concern expressed about
residency.
The intent was good. Bill C-16 defines the term permanent
resident more concisely than does the current act. The existing
legislation may be loosely interpreted. Some individuals have
been found to be residing in Canada because they have a bank
account here or own property in the country without actually
having ever lived in Canada. Redefining that is good.
Bill C-16 calls for 1,095 days, or three years, physical
presence in Canada before someone is eligible to apply for
citizenship. However, Bill C-16 does not provide any mechanism
for determining when applicants arrive in Canada or when they
leave, nor is there any intention to develop one. The proposed
change is a good idea and I support that change, but there is no
way expressed, or in fact even in testimony from the various
civil servants who appeared before the committee, of plans to
enforce the law.
It is of great concern to me when the government puts forth law
that cannot be enforced. It admitted to that. I have several
quotes here. I will not read them all because I have a few pages
of quotes from witnesses at committee, including the civil
servants who deal in this area, where they admit that, no, they
cannot really enforce it. One quote says that they will enforce
it when they really want to. In other words, this allows them to
target people they want to target, but it will not ensure that
people really have had physical presence in the country three
years out of six. A physical presence in the country for three
years out of six is a good idea. I think that is an appropriate
goal, but that is all it is in here, a goal, because there is no
way of really enforcing it.
The minister of immigration at the time, on March 3, 1999,
expressed the following:
Our primary goal is to ensure that people who obtain Canadian
citizenship have a deep commitment to their adopted country. We
believe that such a commitment is possible only if the person is
physically present in the country.
I think that makes sense.
1045
I understand that many newcomers need to travel extensively,
either for business or personal reasons. Many maintain strong
economic and social links with their countries of origin and
Canada benefits from these links. That is why, in Bill C-16, we
provide these permanent residents with the flexibility to travel
outside the country by extending the period during which they
need to meet the physical requirements. It has been extended to
six years now, three years out of six. I believe that is a fair
accommodation.
That is important because we are truly part of a global economy.
That is a huge advantage for Canada because we have people from
almost every country in the world who speak the languages of
probably all countries on the face of the earth. It is great for
doing business. They know the culture. They can speak the
language. It gives us an incredible advantage over many nations
that do not have that diversity. This is a good change. The
intent is good, but why do we have a law that we cannot enforce?
This change is in response to a committee report from 1994. That
is a six year time lag. In the committee report of 1994 the
government dominated Standing Committee on Citizenship and
Immigration recognized the problem being dealt in this clause in
point 6 on page 12 of the report where it says that residency
should be defined in the new act so as to require physical
presence in the country on an application for citizenship.
However, my main concern is that the very next recommendation in
the same report, recommendation No. 7, states that measures
should be introduced to enable accurate monitoring of the periods
of time that permanent residents are absent from Canada.
That government dominated report recognized not only the need
for the change but the need to be able to enforce the law.
Unfortunately it is not there. I have pages of quotes. I know I
cannot go through them all today, but I have some quotes to which
I will refer. The member opposite has expressed an interest in
hearing more, so I will certainly give a little more.
Greg Fyffe, assistant deputy minister of policy and program
development, when questioned by me and others at committee on how
he was going to monitor the physical presence, said that it was
obviously a serious concern.
Norman Sabourin, director of citizenship and citizenship
registrar, during the same meeting agreed with Mr. Fyffe when he
said that there was no question that without any regimented
border controls in place in Canada there would always be a
challenge in assessing whether or not a person was in Canada. Mr.
Sabourin claimed that the department had developed a lot of
expertise in assessing documentary evidence that supported and
outlined whether or not a person was in Canada. These include
passports.
In terms of passports, how many people who cross the border, for
example from Canada to the United States, ever have a passport?
Of course a non-Canadian will have one, but how many have them
stamped? I have travelled to about half a dozen countries in the
last four years and only once had my passport stamped, and that
is when I asked to have it stamped. The passport is not a very
reliable document to use when trying to determine physical
presence in the country.
Mr. Sabourin went on to explain some other methods the
department would require individuals to employ in order to verify
whether they are physically present in Canada. They include
whether or not a person has been attending school or has been in
a job, or whether or not someone can vouch for that fact. There
is some merit to that.
Mr. Sabourin, the departmental official, explained how they
would monitor physical presence by saying that finally, and maybe
the most important part of equation, they have in place a quality
assurance program which allows them to verify the quality and
integrity of information provided by applicants. As part of this
program they randomly target applicants to verify the information
they provided and to explore in detail whether or not the
information is accurate. They are also able to develop profiles
based on indicators of certain types of applicants who might be
less enthusiastic than others in providing a complete picture of
their presence in Canada.
It concerns me that this clause will allow the department to
target certain types of applicants.
1050
It appears that the department will be picking the types,
stereotyping, and relying on luck in many cases to implement the
change which it feels is so important and which I believe is so
important. I contend that based on the promise of random quality
assurances that nothing is in place to allow this physical
presence to be properly monitored. I have to skip over the rest
of my commentary on that clause. There are other valid points
that should be made but I understand that time is limited.
Another concern is the area of retroactivity. People who have
applied under the current Citizenship Act will be made to meet
the law set out in the new citizenship act when it is passed.
That type of retroactivity is not acceptable. Subclause 55(2)
stipulates that when the application has made its way to the
point where a citizenship judge is considering it, the
application will be considered under the old act. The department
has stated that processing time may vary between eight and twelve
months.
However, we have been informed that the real processing time is
more like 17 months under the current act. There should not be
two different paths that applications follow depending strictly
on the speed with which the department currently processes.
People will be penalized if the department has stalled their
application, or if it is moving slowly through the process for
whatever reason. People should not be penalized and made to
qualify under the new act just because they have not reached the
final stage where a judge is about to declare them citizens.
That is very unusual under law and I do not think it is
appropriate under this law. One Liberal member of the committee,
the member for Scarborough Southwest, stated on April 28, 1999,
in relation to this clause that he took the position of the
traditional historic pattern of the Liberal Party of not having
retroactive legislation. If this citizenship law passes as it
is, as he understood it, notwithstanding that someone has been
making his plans in anticipation of the law as it currently
exists he will lose his one year credit and will have to wait for
no apparent reason other than the change in law to apply for
Canadian citizenship.
To him that is retroactivity; it is taking away from people who
have relied on an existing law and it is un-Liberal, whatever
that means. That came from a member of the Liberal Party at the
committee who showed great concern about this clause. Generally
the committee did not like it and here we have it again in Bill
C-16.
Other penalties which are of concern relate to bureaucratic
delays as well. This is the last point I will to talk about
today because I see that my time is drawing to a close. People
being punished for bureaucratic delays concerns me. It is
something that is unacceptable. It is something which is in this
bill. It is allowed to happen as a result of this bill in
different areas.
Subsection 6(1)(b)(i) of the current act allows individuals who
claim refugee status to count each full day of residency in
Canada from the date of application as a half day toward the
total needed for a citizenship application. If there is a delay
for whatever reason in getting the application through then a
half day credit will be allowed toward residency in Canada. That
will be completely taken away under the current bill. If there
are bureaucratic delays, under the bill no time will be granted.
People will be punished for the time it takes the civil service
to deal with the application.
Therefore refugees who want to become citizens will be punished
because of the slow process of the bureaucracy. Does that make
any sense?
We and several other witnesses have called for leaving in place
something like what is under the current act. If the process is
slowed down by the bureaucracy, at least part of that time will
be considered to be time when the applicant is physically present
in Canada because the person is physically present in Canada.
That makes sense. Many witnesses said that it made sense, but we
do not find that change in the legislation. To me that is a
great concern which must be fixed.
1055
I have several other areas I will talk about in future readings
of the bill. My colleagues will talk about some of the changes
they want to see in the bill. We presented many of these
arguments when Bill C-63 was before the House. We heard many of
the same arguments from witnesses at committee. The government
heard some of them. It did not deal with them very well,
particularly in terms of residency, but it heard them. Maybe we
can fix them in committee but many of them have not even been
acknowledged by changes in the new piece of legislation.
For that reason I cannot support the legislation. I cannot
speak for all my colleagues, but I believe they are unlikely to
support this piece of legislation unless we get some of the key
changes required to make it a good piece of legislation.
We want a new citizenship act. The old one is outdated. Does
the new piece of legislation provide for a new citizenship act
that will work for Canadians and for people who are aspiring to
become Canadians? No, I do not believe it does. For that reason
we will not be supporting this piece of legislation but I
certainly look forward to the arguments, the discussion presented
by all opposition parties and by the government in the House and
at committee. Hopefully we can make some changes that will make
it work.
That is what I am looking for. It is not a bill that should be
partisan. I do not believe that it will be treated as a partisan
piece of legislation. We are talking about Canadian citizenship.
We all feel the same about Canadian citizenship. We take the
same pride in Canadian citizenship. We realize what a valuable
asset Canadian citizenship is. All we want is a good piece of
legislation.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): We have two minutes before
Statements by Members. The hon. member for Rosemont may start
his speech, if it is agreeable to him.
Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont, BQ): Madam Speaker, I only have
two minutes, but I can continue later. This will perhaps allow
me to tell you how I have planned my remarks. That is about all
I will have time for.
Bill C-16 is a bill on Canadian citizenship, which, naturally, to
all intents and purposes, contains the essentials of Bill C-63,
a bill that died on the order paper.
The Bloc Quebecois debated it at the standing committee. My
colleague from Hochelaga—Maisonneuve was leading the fight at
that point on the bill as a whole and had introduced a number of
amendments to include a number of—
The Deputy Speaker: Order, please.
I believe it is time to proceed to Statements by Members. The
hon. member for Hull—Aylmer.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[Translation]
IMMIGRATION
Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Canadian
citizenship is more than a status. Our citizenship makes us who
we are. It marks our belonging. For example, every year over
150,000 immigrants become citizens.
Our government has proposed legislation on citizenship.
It has established clear and fair criteria in keeping with the
Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
1100
What is new in the bill is that persons applying for citizenship
must demonstrate solid links with Canada. They will have to
have lived in Canada at least three years over the six years
preceding the application.
The Liberal government continues to work to ensure that we are
open to the world and that we promote the development of other
cultures wishing to settle in the country. This is the direction
of the Liberal government's commitment and action in immigration.
* * *
[English]
REFUGEES
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it
has now been more than a year since the Minister of Citizenship
and Immigration was told by Vancouver police that dozens of bogus
refugee claimants from Honduras were trafficking drugs in our
city.
Some of those refugee claimants have now been arrested more than
15 times each. While the minister does nothing to remove them
from Canada, the bogus refugees happily climb into the paddy
wagons week after week, treating the experience like a working
vacation and costing taxpayers millions of dollars in welfare,
medical care and social services.
The United Nations convention on refugees requires refugees to
make their claims in the first safe country they reach, but
almost all of the refugee claimants in Canada changed planes in
Miami, Heathrow or Frankfurt.
One does not have to be a policeman on the streets of Vancouver
to work out why the claims are not made in Miami, Heathrow or
Frankfurt, but the minister stands by while we get taken for
suckers. She is worse than the cardboard cutout we had for a
minister before her.
* * *
NORTEL NETWORKS
Mr. David Pratt (Nepean—Carleton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
inasmuch as the Internet has revolutionized the way we work and
communicate, the changes that are coming will make the advances
thus far seem inconsequential.
Nortel Networks' new technology, the Open IP Environment, is
predicted to bring massive changes to the Internet over the next
two to three years, providing consumers with Internet access from
virtually everywhere.
Where will a lot of this work take place? Right here in Canada,
and right here in the Ottawa area.
Earlier this week Nortel Networks announced an investment of
$260 million U.S. into the further development of fibre optics
technology for the Internet, of which more than $100 million will
come into the Ottawa area.
Nortel expects to hire 1,000 employees in Ottawa, bringing the
number of full time Nortel workers in the area to 14,000.
Recent investments in Internet and fibre optics technology mean
the creation of thousands of new jobs and place the national
capital region clearly in the vanguard of the Internet
revolution.
* * *
THE LATE CHARLES SCHULZ
Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Carleton—Gloucester, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, Charles Schulz entertained Canadians and people around
the world for 50 years with his Peanuts comic strip.
He passed away at his home last Saturday, just as Charlie Brown,
Snoopy, Lucy, Linus and the rest of the lovable Peanuts
gang bid their farewell in newspapers across the planet. “Such
an ending was as if he had written it that way”, said Canadian
cartoonist Lynn Johnston.
[Translation]
As a caricaturist and visual arts teacher, I recognize the
importance of this entertaining and educational means of
communications Mr. Schulz gave us. The appealing characters in
his weekly strip taught us many a lesson about life.
Thank you, Mr. Schulz, for having been a family member for
nearly 50 years.
[English]
“You're a good man, Charlie Brown”.
* * *
MENINGITIS
Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
today in Edmonton an inoculation frenzy is under way. Meningitis
has struck and threatens Edmonton's youth.
Today nearly 300,000 of our children will receive an inoculation
cloak to protect them against this evil scourge. My daughter,
Kristina, is one of those to be inoculated today.
Two precious lives have been lost and over a dozen more hang in
the balance. Meningitis can strike any place at any time and
meningitis does not discriminate.
Dr. Gerald Predy, Chief Medical Officer for Edmonton's Capital
Health Authority, leads the troops in the battle against the
meningitis menace with his army of over 500 nurses.
I want Dr. Predy and fellow Edmontonians to know that the
support and prayers of the House are with them during this most
trying of times.
* * *
THE ENVIRONMENT
Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, clean
air and the protection of human health is a top priority for the
government and we are taking action.
1105
We are reducing the air pollutants that form ground level ozone,
a primary component of smog.
This week Ottawa hosted the first formal negotiations of the
Ozone Annex under the 1991 Canada-United States air quality
agreement. Canada's objective is to reduce the flow of ozone and
ozone precursor pollutants from the United States into Canada,
reducing transboundary smog.
Scientists tells us that at least 5,000 Canadians die
prematurely each year from the effects of poor air quality. Over
the next eight months delegations from Canada and the United
States will reach agreement on targets and schedules to reduce
emissions that create ozone. Canada is setting strong national
targets and a timetable for strong action to reduce ozone and
particulate matters with Canada-wide standards. We will continue
to take aggressive action. We will continue to provide strong
leadership to improve air quality and to deal with the health
concerns facing all Canadians.
* * *
[Translation]
“CHARTRAND ET SIMONNE” MINISERIES
Mr. Maurice Dumas (Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
since February 2 Radio-Canada has been showing the “Chartrand et
Simonne” miniseries, which runs on Wednesdays and which relates
the true love story between Michel Chartrand, a committed,
passionate, quick-tempered and tender person, and another
exemplary person, Simonne, his wife, the daughter of Mr. Justice
Monet.
I had the privilege of watching the whole series. Two excellent
actors, Luc Picard and Geneviève Rioux, give a brilliant
performance in the leading roles. I hope Radio-Canada can
broadcast the rest of that miniseries.
This miniseries makes us relive important moments in Quebec's
union history, including the Asbestos and Murdochville strikes.
We can see those who were alongside Michel Chartrand, namely,
Gérard Pelletier, Jean Marchand, Jeanne Sauvé and Pierre Elliott
Trudeau, before they all joined the Liberal team.
Congratulations to producers Robert Ménard and Claire Wojas, to
director Alain Chartrand and to his team for a wonderful
production.
* * *
[English]
MOLSON BREWERIES
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise
to congratulate and commend Molson for its outstanding effort to
support the community and help save our great Ottawa Senators
hockey team.
Canada's oldest brewing company, Molson, recently announced an
initiative to support hockey in Ottawa. A creative idea that
requires support from the community, Molson will donate $2 for
every case of Molson sold.
Molson has a history of helping communities. For example, in
1786 John Molson helped to build a hospital. Since the late
1980s Molson has championed the cause of HIV/AIDS. Recently the
company has shown community spirit by sponsoring a program called
“Local Heroes”, which is intended to revitalize recreational
facilities in Canadian communities.
Over the years Molson has supported over 1,000 projects, and for
that we extend our thanks.
* * *
GOVERNMENT GRANTS
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
Canadians are outraged by the reckless spending at HRDC in the
billion dollar boondoggle. But this is only the tip of the
iceberg. This is a systemic problem which is widespread in
Indian affairs, western economic diversification, ACOA and CIDA.
Let us look at CIDA.
CIDA Inc.'s December 1999 audit revealed missing reports, sloppy
bookkeeping, no follow-up audits, no lessons learned and payments
made to projects even after they failed. It is the same old
thing.
The situation has worsened since the 1992 audit. More than half
of nearly $1 billion goes to feasibility studies and still only
one in ten projects ever gets off the ground. There is no
measurement of benefits from projects. Ninety per cent of the
projects did not even report where the money went.
Some of the biggest CIDA contracts have gone to a company which
was among the largest single contributor to the Liberal Party
prior to the last election. CIDA is being used as a slush fund
in the same way as HRDC.
* * *
[Translation]
LEBANON
Mr. Mark Assad (Gatineau, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Canada-Lebanon
Parliamentary Friendship Group wants to strongly condemn the
most recent bombing of Lebanon by Israel.
[English]
It is understandable that Israel is angered by the loss of life
suffered by its occupational force in South Lebanon where the
Hezbollah make attacks on the Israeli occupational forces. The
adherence by Israel to United Nations resolution 425 to withdraw
from Lebanon would reduce tensions considerably in the Middle
East.
[Translation]
We want the establishment of a lasting and fair peace between
Israel and its neighbours. The destruction of Lebanese
infrastructure by Israel was an act of confrontation that
threatened innocent lives, and it goes against regional peace
and stability.
1110
[English]
Because we care about the establishment of a lasting and
equitable peace in the Middle East, we call upon the world's
democracies to ensure that all parties return to the path of
respect for international law.
* * *
FARMERS
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, as you know we had many Saskatchewan farmers in Ottawa
this week telling us about the worst farm crisis for grain
farmers in Saskatchewan and Manitoba since the 1930s.
As a matter of fact, the reason for the farm crisis is basically
because of a subsidy war between the Europeans and the Americans.
In Europe the farmer gets 56 cents on the dollar from the
treasuries in those countries. In the United States the farmer
gets 38 cents on the dollar from the treasury in Washington. In
our country the farmers get 9 cents on the dollar in support from
the treasury in this country.
We know that we have to create a level playing field. We also
know that we now have the fiscal capability to do that, with a
projected surplus for the next year of about $10 billion and
about $95 billion in the next five years. With the budget coming
down in about 10 days it would be very wise for the Government of
Canada to make sure there is a substantial commitment from the
federal government to the farmers of Saskatchewan and Manitoba in
the grain sector to level the playing field for our farmers to
that of the Europeans and the Americans.
* * *
[Translation]
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Ms. Hélène Alarie (Louis-Hébert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the
Standing Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status
of Persons with Disabilities made short work of the Prime
Minister's simplistic line about the financial problem at Human
Resources Development Canada being limited to $250.
Why then did the Liberal majority not go along with the opposition
parties' suggestions to call as witnesses Mel Cappe, the Clerk
of the Privy Council; the President of the Treasury Board; Denis
Desautels, the Auditor General of Canada; John Reid, the
Commissioner of Access to Information; and Mr. Martin, the
Director of Internal Audit at Human Resources Development
Canada?
Members of the committee were unanimous that there should be an
in-depth investigation into all grant programs at Human Resources
Development Canada. Quite a comedown for the Prime Minister, who
is irresponsibly suggesting that the crisis involves nothing
more than a few small amounts.
It is a shame that the Liberal majority refused to follow through
on its logic and rejected the Bloc Quebecois proposal to call
the Minister for International Trade and the Prime Minister as
witnesses. The biggest culprits are being allowed to wash their
hands of the scandal for which they are responsible.
* * *
[English]
HARNESS RACING
Mr. Hec Clouthier (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, this month I was a presenter at the prestigious
O'Brien Awards for excellence in the sport of harness racing in
Canada. It once again showcased the superstars of our sport.
When the dust had settled, the lightning-quick Blissful Hall
paced away with the Horse of the Year Award. His outspoken,
opinionated, colourful trainer, Ben Wallace, garnered a much
deserved Trainer of the Year Award.
The real story of the night was the emergence of a new superstar
in the driving ranks. Canada has produced the greatest drivers
in the history of harness racing, from Joe O'Brien to Keith
Waples to John Campbell, and now a new young lion called Chris
Christoforou, who won over 600 races and over $6 million in 1999,
both Canadian records. Chris learned his lessons well from his
father, Chris Sr. Harness racing knows that this young man is
ready, willing and certainly able to race through the home
stretch to victory for the great Canadian sport of harness
racing.
* * *
LIGHTHOUSES
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I rise today on behalf of many individuals in
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough who are concerned by the
proposals being considered by the Department of Fisheries and
Oceans to solarize lighthouses in the area.
Not only is solarization expensive, unnecessary and ineffective,
it begs the question, why convert cabled lighthouses to solar?
We have already witnessed the removal of horns, buoys and backup
diesel motor systems as cost cutting measures, to the detriment
of ocean safety. Blankets of fog in places like the Strait of
Canso often render solar lighthouses ineffective. A rush to
alter equipment and automation is dangerous and haste could cost
lives.
Fishermen are deeply concerned with the prospect of losing these
lighthouses by converting them to a solar operation. The most
immediate threat is to lighthouses in Cranberry; however,
Whitehead and Eddie Point could soon be targeted upon the
completion of the Cranberry transformation.
I ask the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans to seriously weigh
the safety concerns of the fishermen most directly affected by
these proposed changes. I urge the minister to reconsider all
plans to further downgrade and denigrate these historical and
practical lighthouses in the province.
* * *
1115
WHITBY, ONTARIO
Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the Whitby 2000 time capsule is where mementoes, stories and
pieces of heritage about the town of Whitby, its residents,
institutions and businesses will be stored until the year 2030,
at which time it will be exhumed.
The year 2030 marks the 175th anniversary of the incorporation
of the town of Whitby. Current and former citizens of Whitby are
invited to make a submission, reflect on changes in Whitby or
share dreams and aspirations for the future.
School children may wish to submit a special school project on
Whitby as it is today, or document popular trends, record the
history of Whitby or predict the future.
Families could record their family history with photographs or
write letters to future descendants. Community groups may submit
a history of their particular group with photographs of various
projects.
Submission application forms must be completed by individuals or
groups wishing to submit material for inclusion in the Whitby
2000 time capsule. The 2000 time capsule co-ordinating committee
will review the submissions and notify applicants of the
process—
The Deputy Speaker: It is now time for oral questions.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, yesterday when asked about $640,000 jobs grants in her
riding in November, the HRD minister told parliament:
Yet access to information reveals that in November the minister
alone had authority for approvals. I invite the minister to
explain this latest discrepancy.
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to confirm again that I
wrote to my deputy and indicated that she would be the sole
decision maker in terms of projects that were approved in the
riding of Brant.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the minister is confirming that the information she
provides through access to information is not reliable. Can she
tell the House why she does not provide reliable information
through access?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, what I can confirm is that I made it very
clear I would not be approving grants and contributions in the
riding of Brant. I indicated that the deputy minister would be
doing so, and I did that by letter.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, there is a document which she provided to an access
request headed “Delegation of Authority”. There is a column
that says approval of proposal.
The minister has full authority and everyone else listed in the
column has no authority at all. If the minister has evidence to
show that this document is reliable then she should table it
immediately, and I ask her to do so.
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if it pleases the House, I would be glad,
when it is translated and in accordance with the rules of the
House, to table the letter to the deputy.
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, as my colleague has outlined, yesterday the human
resources minister confirmed that the Canada jobs fund grants
were approved for her riding last November despite the fact it
did not qualify, and yet she said:
That was presumably last summer. The chart obtained through
access to information by the official opposition clearly disputes
this because it says that as of November only the minister had
approval for those grants. Why is there a discrepancy?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, there are a number of things to which the
hon. member makes reference. Let me clarify that indeed the
riding of Brant did qualify for Canada jobs funds.
One of the things I would also like to do, perhaps at the end of
question period, is table the terms and conditions of the two
programs on which we have been focusing: the transitional jobs
fund which came into vogue in 1996 and ended in 1999 and the
Canada jobs fund which began in 1999. I think that would provide
assistance to the opposition.
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, what we have here is a very clear discrepancy between
what the minister said yesterday in the House and what she is
claiming today.
The reality is that she claims when she took over the job of the
human resources development department, which was last summer,
she instructed by letter, according to what she says today, that
the deputy could approve those grants. The information we
received that was updated as of November clearly shows that only
the minister could approve all the grants, including the ones in
her own riding.
Why does she instruct her employees in HRDC to respond to access
to information requests with false information?
1120
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I say again, I have indicated to
members of the House that I am prepared to table information they
might find valuable, and I would be glad to do that.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, an
internal audit done in 1997 by Consulting and Audit Canada has
confirmed what the Bloc Quebecois' analysis clearly showed—
political pressure was brought to bear on the administrative
staff of Human Resources Development Canada in order to speed up
the grant approval process.
Is the minister going to continue denying that the Liberal
government has literally transformed the transitional jobs fund
into a propaganda tool for the purpose of winning votes?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, first let me clarify this was not an
audit that the hon. member is referring to but it was a review of
the program that was done in the spring of 1997.
Let me also confirm for the hon. member something he knows very
well, that these projects exist not only in ridings held by
Liberal members but very significantly in ridings held by Bloc
members as well.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, if
the minister understood French better, she would have known that
I was talking about an audit. Audit is part of the company's
name. In addition, if they injected money into a riding such as
Anjou—Rivière-des-Prairies, it is because they thought they could
wrestle the riding away from us. My riding did not get one red
cent. We may be naive, but we are not right out to lunch.
Is the minister going to continue to deny the evidence, when the
same audit shows that the most dubious projects did not follow
the standard approval process?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let us be clear in talking about this
review. It talks about the role politicians play in the
transitional jobs fund. Indeed this is quite unique. The review
did not suggest in its recommendations that politicians, local
members of parliament who have information and knowledge about
their ridings, should not be consulted in this undertaking.
In fact some of the other things the review said were quite
positive. It said that the approval process and criteria appear
to be working. It said that the transitional jobs fund was an
effective way to pool information—
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member for
Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, for the past ten days, the minister has not
stopped being in a muddle and hiding behind her six point action
plan, which convinces no one.
Will the minister acknowledge that this new overpowering bit of
news revealed by the 1997 audit inquiry proves the offensiveness
of the position taken by the Prime Minister, who is trying to
put the blame for the scandal onto the backs of officials, when
the whole operation was planned in his own office?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, everything the hon. member says is
absolutely untrue. I would remind the House that it is this hon.
member who in quotations to his local newspapers said that
clearly because of the success he has had with getting grants and
contributions in his riding there is no political undertaking
here at all.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, on the contrary, we are seeing more and more
that this affair is covering up institutionalized political
interference.
Will the minister not agree that, under the circumstances, the
testimony of her predecessor, the current Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs, and of the Prime Minister are vital
to shed light on this misappropriation of funds in order to
serve the election objectives of the Liberal Party of Canada?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, that is patently untrue. Let us review
the facts again. The transitional jobs fund and the Canada jobs
fund were programs and grants to help communities of high
unemployment and to provide opportunities for work for men and
women in those ridings, and those ridings include ridings held by
the New Democrats, the Reform, the Bloc, the Tories and the
Liberals.
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
minister of human resources was talking about the fund being
there to help the people who need jobs in areas where there are
high rates of unemployment.
We well know that she will not answer our questions about such
places as Vancouver with pockets of high unemployment at 13.1%
that never received transitional jobs fund grants.
1125
Could the minister answer once and for all why MPs in the House
did not know about those changes in the transitional jobs fund so
that they could have had the opportunity to get the money too?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I said at the outset, I am very happy
to table the terms and conditions both of the transitional jobs
fund and the Canada jobs fund in the House today.
What is very clear is that these undertakings have made a real
difference in areas across Canada. We on this side of the House
know that the federal government can play a role to ensure where
we need to help provide opportunities for men and women who do
not have the opportunity for the dignity of jobs that they can be
funded.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, how is it
that, in the riding of Vancouver East, money was available from
the transitional jobs fund when there was a Liberal incumbent
but it is no longer available with an NDP incumbent there. They
have received no money and are not eligible. There is a double
standard.
We would like to know the truth in this business. How do we
ensure that all the members in this House may take advantage of
these funds, and not just the Liberals?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the truth of the matter is that in the
riding of Vancouver East indeed there was a transitional jobs
fund project that created 18 jobs. I have been made aware that
there were no further proposals after that.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, daily the minister of HRDC subjects Canadians to the
sad spectacle of self-destruction with the documented mishandling
and mismanagement of taxpayers money uncovered by the internal
audit, the subsequent fallout, the spin-doctoring, the
withholding of information, the manipulation of statistics and
the sliding scale of eligibility. Could the minister explain why
Canadians should trust her at all?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am very glad to have the opportunity to
review again for the hon. member and for the House the
undertakings here and the importance we have put on this issue.
It was an internal audit of the department that highlighted
administrative deficiencies which we had to fix. As minister I
received that information. I took it seriously and we are now
implementing a plan that will fix the problem.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, we know the minister had that audit in hand on
November 17. Why did she not come before the House then and come
clean with Canadians?
For days the minister has dodged questions in the House and
pointed the finger at officials, previous ministers and members
of the opposition in a weak attempt to lend credibility to what
was an obvious effort to pad employment in her own riding. This
type of creative accounting has baffled Statistics Canada
officials, MPs and Canadians generally.
With this fiasco now firmly stuck to the minister, will she
display some semblance of credibility and ministerial
responsibility and simply resign?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I say again that I have taken my
responsibility seriously and I will fix the problem.
I would ask the hon. member on the issue of accountability how
he defends the work of his party when it was in power and left us
with a $42 billion deficit.
Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, two years ago auditors criticized the
human resources department for doling out grants for political
purposes in the transitional jobs fund.
This audit exposed a $6 million forestry project in New
Brunswick that they said should not have been granted. The
government estimates of job creation were highly inflated and
were “more political than other programming”.
This $6 million bungle has mushroomed to a $1 billion bungle.
Why does the minister insist on continuing with business as usual
and on giving grants for political purposes rather—
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister of Human Resources
Development.
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let me clarify again for the hon. member.
She made reference to an audit. It was not an audit. It was a
review of the transitional jobs fund program, a very important
undertaking.
The recommendations in that review did not suggest that we
should change the relationship we build community by community
with local members of parliament. Indeed it said they had a role
to play.
I remind the hon. member that something the review did say was
that job creation under the transitional jobs fund tends to be
more productive and uninterrupted than it is under any of the
more traditional types of HRDC programs, especially where
seasonal employment is common.
Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the minister can explain it however she
wants but the reality is that the review, the audit, said that
things were not being done properly.
1130
The minister and her predecessors have been warned for years
that things have to change. Why has this minister done nothing
to prevent the billion dollar bungle that we have now?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, what the review suggested is that we
needed to provide more skills development for those employees
working on this project and we did that. What it suggested is
that we needed to have stronger administrative practices and we
are improving them.
What I can say to the hon. member in the context of the broad
issue of grants and contributions in my department is that we
have identified that we have a problem. We have a plan of action
that is now being implemented and the problem will be fixed.
[Translation]
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
analyzing the minister's responses, one can see she has a
fertile imagination. The computer system varies from one
program to the other. The rates used are for either 1995 or
1997. The bases for calculation are regional, provincial or
federal, and so on.
Since this minister claims to hold the monopoly on the truth,
can she table in this House the parameters justifying the
transitional jobs fund subsidies given in her riding?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I have said, I am going to be tabling
with the acceptance of the House the terms and conditions of both
the transitional jobs fund and the Canada jobs fund because I
think those terms and conditions will clarify a number of things
that have found their way to the floor here.
[Translation]
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
minister's riding is in the Niagara region, where there has not
been more than 10.7% unemployment since 1996.
Can the minister explain to this House how she managed to get
transitional jobs funding for her riding, when the program
directives indicated that recipients were eligible only if they
were in an employment insurance economic region with an
unemployment rate of 12% or higher?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, again when the hon. member sees the terms
and conditions of the transitional jobs fund she will see that
there is within those terms and conditions the opportunity to
support areas with pockets of high unemployment in economic
regions. Not only was that done in the riding of Brant, but in
the ridings of Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Kelowna,
Kootenay—Columbia, Nanaimo—Alberni, Nanaimo—Cowichan, and
Saint John. There were areas where the unemployment level was
less than 12%. The program applied.
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
while the minister attempts to minimize the scandal and blame
others, it is clearly in her area of responsibility.
We have obtained a list circulated by Peter Donolo, the Prime
Minister's former director of communications, to members of the
Liberal caucus. It lists hundreds of places where Liberals can
go for a photo op with recipients of government grants and
contributions. Does this not just prove that this billion dollar
boondoggle is more about buying political support than about
creating jobs?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the document refers to activities and events connected
with many different programs, not simply the transitional jobs
fund. It is part of the ordinary democratic process of
governments past and present, federal and provincial, for
ministers and members to attend sites of activities and events to
show what the government is doing to help ordinary Canadians all
over the country. There is nothing wrong with that. It is part
of the democratic process.
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
Prime Minister's former director of communications used this list
to advise Liberal MPs where they could get an easy photo op by
exploiting recipients of federal grants. This list was
circulated to only a select group of MPs and what a surprise.
What a surprise that only Liberal MPs and cabinet ministers got a
copy. That is a real democratic process.
Will the Deputy Prime Minister acknowledge the obvious, that
these grants were more about raising the profile of Liberal MPs
than they were about giving grant money to Canadians and creating
jobs? Is that not obvious to everybody?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, what should be obvious is that it is normal for
governments to let Canadians know what they are doing to help
them have jobs, to help them have better communities and to ask
their supporters, ministers and MPs, to be the vehicle for
getting out this information.
1135
This can work two ways. It can help governments and it can also
give people information by which governments can be criticized.
But in the case of this government, because we have created
almost a million and a half jobs since 1993 and we have the
lowest unemployment rate in a generation, no wonder Canadians
think—
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member for Longueuil.
* * *
[Translation]
HERITAGE CANADA
Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire (Longueuil, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday the heritage minister said that she put more money into
Quebec for Canada Day because there was no Société
Saint-Jean-Baptiste elsewhere in Canada, and what she wanted to
do in Quebec, to repeat her terms, was to “match the Société
Saint-Jean-Baptiste”.
Can the Minister of Canadian Heritage explain to us what she
meant by matching the Société Saint Jean-Baptiste?
Hon. Sheila Copps (Minister of Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the investment by the Société Saint-Jean-Baptiste for
Saint-Jean-Baptiste celebrations is considerable, and for Canada
and Quebec the celebration of Saint-Jean-Baptiste and Canada Day
is equally important.
Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire (Longueuil, BQ): Mr. Speaker, can the
minister inform the House how much she spends in francophone
communities outside Quebec to celebrate the holiday of French
Canadians?
Hon. Sheila Copps (Minister of Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, normally the amount spent in support of the francophone
community outside Quebec is, in general, $250 million annually.
* * *
[English]
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Philip Mayfield (Cariboo—Chilcotin, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, yesterday the HRD minister said that grants that
happened to end up in her riding were the decision of her deputy
minister. Yet in 1991 the Prime Minister said that his ministers
must be held ultimately accountable for their departments and
staff.
Why is the minister passing the blame to her deputy minister for
the grants in her riding when according to her boss she is
ultimately responsible for the actions of her department?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, quite the contrary, I am not blaming
anyone here. I am just trying to ensure that appropriate
decision making is undertaken. That is why I wrote to my deputy
and asked her “to please accept this as notice of my delegation
to you of full signing authority for all Canada jobs fund
projects located in the riding of Brant”.
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
clearly the minister is trying to delegate blame. In terms of any
management practice, many things can be delegated. Accountability
cannot be delegated.
I would like to ask the minister a very direct and simple
question. Who is in charge of her department, the minister or
the deputy minister, and who is accountable?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it appears to me that the questions from
the other side are pointing out that the things that we need to
have done have not been done in the past. I have taken this very
seriously. I am accountable to ensure that the problems that have
been identified are fixed and I will do that.
* * *
[Translation]
PARENTAL LEAVE
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the
leader of the opposition in the national assembly strengthened
the existing consensus by giving his support to Minister Marois
regarding the millions of dollars to which Quebec is entitled
under the parental insurance project.
Considering that Minister Marois has asked to meet the Minister
of Human Resources Development, will the minister quickly follow
up on that request to settle the issue and allow the Quebec
parental insurance project to become a reality in 2001?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let me say again, as I said yesterday,
that we had a negotiating table with the Government of Quebec in
the year 1997. They are the ones who chose to break off the
negotiations despite the offer that we had made to them.
For us right now, as indicated in the Speech from the Throne, we
are looking specifically at the expansion of parental benefits to
make them more accessible and flexible. It would seem to me that
that is where I should turn my attention in the first instance.
* * *
RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT
Ms. Judy Sgro (York West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my question
is for the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health.
In October the Prime Minister shared his vision for the new
millennium: a nation built on learning, innovation and
excellence. Can the parliamentary secretary outline the
Government of Canada's commitment to creating a positive research
environment where Canadian researchers can achieve world class
potential here at home?
1140
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague the member
for York West for her question.
I am pleased to tell the House that earlier this morning the
Minister of Health announced nearly $66 million in medical
research funding in Ontario at seven different universities
through the Canadian Medical Research Council.
[Translation]
This follows the announcement made in Quebec last week
concerning a $165 million federal investment, over a five year
period, to support the work of 500 health researchers. Funding
will double over a four year period.
* * *
[English]
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Howard Hilstrom (Selkirk—Interlake, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the government has its priorities all wrong.
While the government has been busy giving subsidized money to
multi-billion dollar companies like Wal-Mart, the official
opposition has been out in the countryside consulting with
farmers. As many as 75% of farmers believe that the future of
their farms is very bleak.
The human resources development minister is part of the problem,
not part of the solution. How can the minister justify wasting
millions of dollars subsidizing companies like Wal-Mart when she
should be helping farmers save their farms?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member's question was totally off base from the
beginning.
No money was given to Wal-Mart. He is wrong about that. He is
also wrong in saying that we are not working to help farmers. We
are working to help them. We are putting forward programs worth
billions of dollars. We are going to continue to do our best to
help them deal with this serious income crisis at the present
time.
* * *
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris—Moose Mountain, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, as a result of the government's policies, western
farmers cannot even get a break-even price for the products of
their hard labour. Yet RMH Teleservices, a U.S. company worth $80
billion, was given $1.6 million to set up in the minister's
riding. This was money it did not ask for, money it did not
need. In fact it would have set up there anyway.
The minister has attempted to excuse the abuse of taxpayers'
money by saying that grants are needed. Can the minister explain
how RMH Teleservices—
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister of Human Resources
Development.
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would love to invite the hon. member to
come to my riding where he could see the call centre in
operation. There are men and women working in that call centre
who had not had the opportunity to work for six or seven years.
They had been on social assistance.
The kind of work that this opportunity provides to my community
spoke directly to our labour market needs. The people in the
riding of Brant are very thankful for the role the Government of
Canada played in that undertaking.
Mrs. Michelle Dockrill (Bras d'Or—Cape Breton, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, my question is for the minister of HRDC. My question is
not about job creation, it is about the integrity of the
government and the minister.
Yesterday the minister could not explain how a $750,000 grant
became a $2 million cheque to a Liberal supporter. Today her
officials acknowledge a million dollar top-up.
My question is simple. Who approved the top-up?
Hon. George S. Baker (Minister of Veterans Affairs and
Secretary of State (Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency),
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this was a combination of moneys from ACOA
and HRDC.
The chambers of commerce praised this operation. The
municipalities praised this operation in Cape Breton. The people
of Cape Breton praised 250 permanent jobs in this area.
When is the NDP going to get in step with its own constituents?
Mrs. Michelle Dockrill (Bras d'Or—Cape Breton, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, let me be clear. I have documents from the minister's
own department stating that $2 million was received from the
transitional jobs fund for this company. Call after call to my
office in Glace Bay tell stories of recent layoffs at Scotia
Rainbow, bounced cheques, and public records indicating legal
action against Scotia Rainbow.
It appears the only cheques that have not bounced from this
company are the cheques contributing to the Liberal Party.
I am asking the minister, is that job creation?
Hon. George S. Baker (Minister of Veterans Affairs and
Secretary of State (Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency),
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, 250 permanent jobs in an area devastated
by the downturn in the groundfish industry. The NDP always
supported that kind of job creation.
Perhaps it is because of their last convention. With their
leader pulling to the right and their backbenchers pulling to the
left neither of them know whether their membership is following
them or chasing them.
1145
The Deputy Speaker: I appreciate that there is a lot of
enthusiasm on both sides for questions and answers today but it
is difficult for the Chair to hear when everyone is making their
points at the same time.
[Translation]
Mr. Jean Dubé (Madawaska—Restigouche, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
Minister of Human Resources Development seems to have problems
with geography in her own riding. She reminds me of the
Fisheries and Oceans official who did not even know where
Newfoundland was. Just imagine.
Can the minister now confirm that her riding is part of economic
region 5-50, which is called Hamilton—Niagara?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I can confirm that my riding is part of
the economic region for Niagara and has been for a decade.
Mr. Jean Dubé (Madawaska—Restigouche, PC): Mr. Speaker,
the cost to move Duchess Foods to the minister's riding was just
over $20,000 per mile. It cost Canadian taxpayers an additional
$2 million to move the minister's riding to the Niagara economic
region.
The minister is clearly lost in her portfolio. Will she now
admit that her riding did not qualify?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, absolutely not. Under the terms and
conditions of both the transitional jobs fund and the Canada jobs
fund the undertakings were appropriate.
This is a member who himself has benefited from these programs
and knows the importance that they have played in his region.
Likewise, in my region where individuals needed the support of
the federal government to provide opportunities, it was given.
Surely he understands that there are things that are the same in
his region as in my region and that these kinds of programs
really do make a difference in the lives of individuals.
* * *
THE ENVIRONMENT
Mr. Rick Limoges (Windsor—St. Clair, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I understand that the Canadian government is launching
negotiations with the United States on cross border smog. In
Windsor and Tecumseh we are on the firing line.
I ask the minister: If Ontario is not yet keeping up with most
U.S. states, how can Canada expect to gain the respect of the
U.S. negotiators in these talks?
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of the Environment, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, the area of Windsor is a particularly important one
in this respect as so much of the smog comes from American
sources.
It is true that in dealing with the Americans we need to have
the province of Ontario very clearly doing more than has been
done in the past. I take the Ontario minister's word that he
will match all American standards. In fact, I took some
consolation from this morning's newspaper when, in response to a
criticism that air quality might decline, he said “If that
happens, I will `eat my shorts'.”.
* * *
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
a lot of questions have been asked of the HRDC minister regarding
excessive grants in her riding. It is no wonder Canadians
question the competence of this minister when we look at the
different answers she has given.
First, she cited pockets of unemployment. Then, it was periods
of unemployment. Then, it was her deputy minister's fault. Then,
it was based on the EI boundaries. However, when we asked her to
table this information she refused.
Will the minister stop the charade and admit to Canadians that
she is now trying to redefine the rules after the fact to justify
these grants?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I think what will be helpful for the
members on that side is that I table the terms and conditions so
that they do understand that the transitional jobs fund was a
particular program with its own terms and conditions and then it
transformed into the Canada jobs fund with another set of terms
and conditions.
Day after day they confuse the issues by not taking the time to
understand the details of these programs and to understand the
support that they have given to Canadians right across this
country.
* * *
[Translation]
AUDIOVISUAL PRODUCTIONS
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday the Minister of Canadian Heritage released her report
on federal support mechanisms to audiovisual production.
Suzanne Aubry, the president of Quebec's Société des auteurs,
recherchistes, documentalistes et compositeurs, reacted by
saying that she had been hoping for the release of the actual
amounts given to producers.
Considering that the industry itself is asking for greater
transparency in the management of public funds, why did the
Minister of Canadian Heritage choose to have all the information
subjected to Revenue Canada's confidentiality rules?
1150
Hon. Sheila Copps (Minister of Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I did not subject the information to these rules. This
is the law.
* * *
[English]
AGRICULTURE
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I have a reasonable question for the Deputy Prime
Minister.
Yesterday I met with Saskatchewan farmers, as many members have.
They are down here lobbying about the farm crisis. They asked me
to ask the Prime Minister a question on their behalf. They want
to invite the Prime Minister to come to Saskatchewan to meet
farmers face to face to learn about the farm crisis.
My question for the Deputy Prime Minister is will he take this
invitation to his boss, the Prime Minister, and invite him, on
behalf of Saskatchewan farmers, to come to our province for a
face to face meeting on the farm crisis.
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I will be very happy to transmit the hon. member's
request.
However, I can confirm, from my own discussions with the Prime
Minister, that he is already well aware of the crisis. As Prime
Minister of all of Canada, he is working hard to help
Saskatchewan farmers and other farmers to live through this
crisis and get back to a period of prosperity once again.
* * *
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, no one is questioning the value of properly managed
accountable administration of public money. But these shifty
efforts, the backtracking and the coverup of what was obviously a
corrupt and disastrous plan that was inherited by the current
minister has left public confidence in shambles.
When will the minister just set the record straight and admit
that her riding did not qualify for TJF or CJF funds?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let me clarify again that the statistics
that we have used, both for the identification of inclusion in
the riding of Brant for transitional jobs fund, are acceptable.
In the context of the 56 economic regions that exist across this
country, Statistics Canada accepts that we have used its data
properly. We use this data consistently across the country for
the 56 economic regions and for the pockets of unemployment that
were identified for application of the transitional jobs fund.
* * *
AIRLINE INDUSTRY
Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Transport.
I received numerous requests from across Canada for comments on
the potential price increases in airline travel for individuals
and of course business travellers in view of the potential
monopoly by Air Canada.
Will the Minister of Transport explain how he will prevent this?
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, it will be the House and the Senate, the Parliament
of Canada that will prevent price gouging, which was a
cornerstone of our policy supported by the standing committees of
both Houses of parliament.
I introduced Bill C-26 yesterday to restructure the airline
industry. We will give new powers to the Canadian Transportation
Agency to monitor monopoly pricing, not just on business class
fares or on economy fares but on all classes of fares used by
Canadians, recognizing that 85% or 90% of all fares that are used
by Canadians are excursion fares.
We believe that this will protect Canadian consumers.
* * *
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
Minister of Human Resources Development Corporation has gone
through contortions to justify the grants in her riding, saying
that she qualified the grants by virtue of high unemployment.
Three grants were awarded to the riding of the Minister of
Justice in Edmonton but there was no riding in Alberta that
qualified by virtue of high unemployment.
Why were these three grants approved just before the election in
Alberta?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the grants that the hon. member is
referring to apply because there were communities in that
province that needed assistance. One in particular included the
Canadian Paraplegic Association.
There is absolutely no question that these funds have made a
difference in the opportunities that are available to paraplegics
in the province of the hon. member. Reform Party members, time
and time again in the public domain, have indicated their support
for these programs.
* * *
[Translation]
ACID RAIN
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, a study
shows that Quebec's forests have been hard hit by acid rain and
that the growth of deciduous trees has declined on average by
30% and that of coniferous trees by 50%.
According to this study, the soil fertilizers will be exhausted
in 40 to 50 years because acid rain is destroying more than
their capacity to regenerate.
Does the Minister of the Environment intend to take advantage of
the negotiations on transborder pollution that began this week
in order to put the heat on Ontario and the United States, which
are the source of over 50% of the acid rain affecting Quebec, to
reduce their emissions as quickly as possible?
1155
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of the Environment, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question. We must
never forget that the acid rain problem is still with us. It
was not dealt with in the 1980s.
We are holding unofficial talks with the Americans at this time.
We want to hold official talks, but things are not at that
stage yet. The beginning of our discussions with the Americans
about other air pollution issues will help matters along.
I was very happy that Minister Bégin promised Quebec's full
co-operation and I quote—
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst.
* * *
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, when my
predecessor Doug Young was Minister of Human Resources
Development, he dropped workers into a black hole from January
to May, with no money coming in, because of the changes to
employment insurance.
Is the Minister of Human Resources Development going to show
some compassion and work along with the provincial government to
solve this problem of the black hole, because whole families are
waiting for a solution?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have had the pleasure of travelling to
the riding of the hon. member and meeting with the men and women
working in the fish plants who themselves identify that they need
to diversify their economy. I have been there and have talked to
them about the role the Canada jobs fund can play in opening up
opportunities in the Acadian peninsula, in helping to bring
together community members so that a strategic plan can be
undertaken to provide options for them. I would ask the hon.
member why, as their representative, he has not done any of this
to date.
Mr. Jean Dubé (Madawaska—Restigouche, PC): Mr. Speaker,
we have an interesting scenario before us. The minister tells
Canadians that her officials are in the dark ages but then
appoints them to fix the problem a day after Canadians
witnessed the minister's lack of accountability and inept
performance.
When will the Prime Minister abandon his legacy building
efforts, act in the best interest of Canadians and remove this
minister?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Prime Minister is acting in the best interest of
Canadians by asking this very capable minister to identify
problems and to solve the problems. The Prime Minister is
acting, as always, in the best interest of Canadians. This is
demonstrated by the way, under his leadership, we eliminated the
burden of the $42 billion deficit left to us by the Tories. We
cut by over 4% the over 11% burden of unemployment left to us by
the Tories.
We are serving Canadians by cleaning up the mess left to us by
the Tories and part of this is supporting the minister for HRDC
in her work for all Canadians.
* * *
HOMELESSNESS
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Minister of Labour has been appointed as the
minister responsible for homelessness and delivered a very
important report just before Christmas. The Minister for Public
Works and Government Services Canada is also responsible for the
Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.
So I ask the parliamentary secretary to the minister, what is he
doing in his responsibilities to help with the problem of
homelessness in Canada?
Ms. Carolyn Parrish (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
CMHC provides mortgage loan insurance to Canadians from coast to
coast to coast. Last year over half a million units were
insured. The Government of Canada spends about $1.9 billion
annually in support of housing assistance for 644,000 low income
households.
Since 1994 the government has fostered public-private
partnerships to create approximately 13,000 units of affordable
housing. Right here in the capital region an anonymous donation
of $1 million was matched and bettered through federal funds of
$1.5 million for five innovative programs.
* * *
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the human resources minister plays fast and loose with
the words “openness” and “transparency”—
The Deputy Speaker: I do not think the hon. member for
Calgary—Nose Hill would want to indulge in this kind of personal
attack. I would suggest that we try to stick with questions and
not with preambles that are designed to provoke.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: Mr. Speaker, rather than having the
documents, which are very important to understanding the issue of
the billion dollar bungle, pulled from the minister piece by
piece, will she stand today and commit to tabling all the files
and all the lists of files that were covered by the random sample
audit and which were the subject of so much controversy and
scandal? There are 40,000 files.
1200
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I do not know where the hon. member has
been, but on a number of occasions I have stated to the House
that in response to a request and interest shown at the standing
committee I am working with my department to pull together this
information, this varying information, so that members of
parliament can have access to it and make use of it. It is not
necessarily kept by riding. We keep it by program.
I have committed to do that. When the information is available
I will be glad to present it.
* * *
[Translation]
BILL C-20
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Bloc Quebecois is becoming more and more convinced that Bill C-20
is undemocratic, but it is also becoming more and more obvious
that the process by which the government wants to get it passed
is still more undemocratic. It does not want to allow all of the
party witnesses to speak.
Is the government prepared to hear all of the witnesses on the
lists provided by the parties, as well as all of the increasing
number of others who are asking to be heard by the committee?
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member across the floor
is well aware, along with the entire House, the government has
indicated that it would be most reasonable, as always, in this
matter.
We have said that we agreed to use a rather broad definition of
what constituted a technical witness. I believe the committee
has said it would hear 45, a very high number, higher than for
most bills—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Hon. Don Boudria: Once again, the government has been
reasonable, but we do not want to cause an unreasonable delay.
* * *
[English]
POINTS OF ORDER
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, during question period the hon. Minister for Human
Resources Development read directly from a letter which she says
she wrote to her deputy minister, in which she abdicated her
approval responsibility for the grants and contributions in
question. Since she read directly from the letter, I would ask
that she table that correspondence today, rather than waiting to
have it translated.
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am prepared to do that.
The Deputy Speaker: The document is not in both official
languages. I believe the consent of the House will be required
to table the document. Perhaps I could hear from the House
leader on this point.
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, to the best of my knowledge,
under our rules, when a letter is quoted the actual document must
be tabled, whatever the document is. That has historically been
the case. Over the last couple of weeks I have tabled letters in
unilingual French or in unilingual English in the House.
1205
The Deputy Speaker: The Chair has the immense advantage
of having at hand a copy of House of Commons Procedure and
Practice, edited by Mr. Marleau and Mr. Montpetit. I refer
hon. members to page 372 of the work, which states:
All documents tabled in the House by a Minister or, as the case
may be, by a Parliamentary Secretary, whether during a sitting or
deposited with the Clerk, are required to be presented in both
official languages.
That requirement is there. If the House gives its consent, the
letter that is in one language could be tabled. Is there consent
for the tabling of this document at this time?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
An hon. member: No.
Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
think there is a large difference between a minister bringing a
document into the House to be tabled as part of the normal course
of the minister's business and the minister quoting from a piece
of correspondence that she happens to have received from someone,
be it a constituent, a member of parliament or someone else, in
only one language. It is an entirely different situation, Mr.
Speaker. Therefore, I think that your ruling perhaps applies
more to official documents being brought in by ministers rather
than something being quoted by the minister on a cursory basis.
The Deputy Speaker: I would not normally engage in debate
on a matter of this kind. However, I would also refer the member
to page 518 of the same M and M work, which deals with the
tabling of documents. It states:
Any document quoted by a Minister in debate or in response to a
question during Question Period must be tabled.
The end of the paragraph states:
All documents tabled in the House by a Minister are required to
be tabled in both official languages.
And there are various citations at the bottom.
The minister has indicated that she is prepared to have the
document translated and will then table the document. Since
there is no consent to table it without that translation, I am
afraid we are going to have to wait for that eventuality, and I
so rule.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
I would simply like to find out from you what criteria guided you
in your decision to allow a question to be put to a minister.
Prior to this week, we put a question to the Minister for
International Trade on the Department of Human Resources
Development issue, a question the Chair denied us.
Today a question was put to the Minister of Human Resources
Development and was answered by the Minister for Veterans
Affairs. Is there some reason why one minister can answer in a
matter belonging to another and another minister cannot?
[English]
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Speaker, I believe that your
interpretation of the rule, as I saw it being dispensed, is quite
correct. There are two different concepts here. The first is
that one may not ask a question of a previous minister or a
minister who is no longer responsible. That is in citation 410
of Beauchesne's.
However, it is also equally true that the government itself can
decide that any minister can answer a question. That is not the
same proposition; it is a totally different one. The two of them
are very different and the Speaker was quite correct in giving a
different decision in both cases because they are different
propositions.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I rise
on a point of order on the same matter. In other words, if I
understand correctly, one minister is not obliged to answer in a
matter that is not his responsibility. We agree on that.
1210
We are told that a minister cannot do that. Yet today we saw
another minister answer a question when he should not have been
allowed to do so. There is a problem somewhere. If a minister
does not have the right to answer, then he cannot answer.
However, the government can decide that another minister will
reply. This means that the government could say the minister
does not have to answer, or does not have the right to do so
unless authorized by the government House leader. Otherwise, how
can we explain that another minister was allowed to answer, a
minister who is not responsible for the issue, but who is a
clever parliamentarian, who can give a good show in the House
and who can save the minister who has problems answering
questions?
In other words, the Minister for International Trade does not
have to answer, but if he wanted to do so, and had the courage
to do it, he could. But he does not have that courage, as
evidenced by the fact that the Minister of Veterans Affairs came
to the rescue of the Minister of Human Resources Development on
an issue for which he is not responsible.
One cannot, in one instance, not have the right to do something
and do it just the same and, in another instance, not have the
right to do it and not do it. This does not make sense. I would
like to know why the Chair prevents the minister from answering
before the minister has even decided whether he will answer or
hide behind the fact that he does not have to answer. I
understand the principle, but it is not for the Chair to prevent
the minister from answering right off the bat, since others just
did it.
The Deputy Speaker: Once again, I refer to the book by Marleau
and Montpetit, not only to promote sales but also because I
believe it contains some very relevant passages with respect to
the matter raised by the Bloc Quebecois leader and the whip.
I believe that the point made by the government House leader is
correct. Let me quote from page 432 of the book:
Questions, although customarily addressed to specific Ministers,
are directed to the Ministry as a whole. It is the prerogative
of the government to designate which Minister responds to which
question. The Prime Minister (or the Deputy Prime Minister or
any other minister acting on behalf of the Prime Minister) may
respond to any or all questions posed during Question Period.
Only one Minister may respond to a question, and it need not be
the one to whom the question is addressed who actually answers
it.
The standing orders are very clear on this point. The Chair
recognized the minister who rose to respond to the questions.
That is entirely consistent with the standing orders in our new
book.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: Mr. Speaker, I want to be very sure I
understand what you have just said. I think it was very
informative.
In other words, you are saying that the Minister of Veterans
Affairs could respond today because the government allowed him
to do so, but that the Minister for International Trade could
not, because the government did not wish him to do so. It
prevented him from doing so, but it could have allowed the
Minister for International Trade to respond to the question had
it so wished.
I know that the government finds this annoying, but that would
have been possible, right? That is what you are saying?
The Deputy Speaker: I will read the last sentence of the
paragraph I began earlier:
That is clear. These are the standing orders, and they have
been adhered to all week during Oral Question Period.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron : Mr. Speaker, once again, we want to
clearly understand the ruling you have just brought down. You
have responded to the hon. leader of the Bloc Quebecois by saying
that the government could very well have allowed the Minister for
International Trade to respond.
Yet the question I am asking you, which takes me back to the
original one, is this: What does the Chair use as a guide in
deciding not to allow the opposition's question?
A little earlier this week, the Speaker decided not to recognize
a question because reference was being made to a prior
responsibility of the present Minister for International Trade,
whereas the government could have chosen to allow the Minister
for International Trade to respond. The Speaker is the one who
prevented the government from making that decision.
1215
The Deputy Speaker: I was not in the Chair yesterday. If there
was a problem yesterday, all that I can say is that the hon.
member ought to have raised it yesterday after question period.
I am not responsible for what has gone on in the House all week.
I am citing the rules that apply to what happened in the House
today, and I believe that is correct. Yesterday I was not here
and I did not see what occurred.
I am sure that the hon. member could raise the matter with the
Speaker when he is here next week. I suggest that he do so.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
The Deputy Speaker: If this is the same point of order, I trust
that it will be very brief. I do not want to waste the House's
time. This is a matter that should be raised with the Speaker.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: Mr. Speaker, listening to your wise counsel
is not a waste of time. I will seek it again. Do not tell me it
is a waste of time to listen to you, it is informative.
Mr. Speaker, you are in fact telling us that since you are the
one in the Chair today, your situation is similar to that of the
minister, in that you are responsible today, and you go by the
standing orders. Today is today and yesterday was yesterday.
Something happened today concerning the Minister of Veterans
Affairs, and I am submitting the issue to you.
We want to know how we should put our questions and we want you
to tell us what approach to take, since this is your role. You
are at the service of all parliamentarians. Because the question
was directed to the Minister for International Trade, you are
saying the Chair could deem the question to be out of order
because that minister is not the one responsible.
To clarify, today the question directed to the Minister of
Human Resources Development was answered by the Minister of
Veterans Affairs. I wonder where the logic is; at any rate, that
is what happened—
The Deputy Speaker: I am sorry—
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: Give me a moment to finish. Our question
should have been worded as follows: “The question is either for
the Minister of Human Resources Development, who is currently
responsible, or for the Minister for International Trade, who is
largely responsible for this mess”. The government would then
have had the option of allowing the former minister to answer or
of preventing him from doing so, as was the case today.
Did I understand correctly the conclusions you drew on this
issue and your teachings to the House today?
The Deputy Speaker: First of all, I suggest that all hon.
members read chapter 11 of the book which looks at the rules
governing Oral Question Period in this House. It is very clear
and very informative. I will cite another paragraph from page 433:
Members may not insist on an answer nor may a Member insist that
a specific Minister respond to his or her question. A
Minister's refusal to answer a question may not be questioned or
treated as the subject of a point of order or question of
privilege.
That is clear enough and very informative. I suggest that the
hon. member and all other hon. members read chapter 11 of this
excellent book, which will enlighten everyone.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. leader of the Bloc Quebecois for a
very, very brief comment.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: Mr. Speaker, to make myself even more
concise than usual, I understand that the minister may refuse,
as you have just repeated, but that was not the question. We
want to know how the Speaker of the House may refuse, on behalf
of a minister, who may or may not have had the government's
permission to respond, but who still takes—
The Deputy Speaker: I again suggest that members read chapter 11
and ask the Speaker questions next week, if they wish.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.
The Deputy Speaker: Is this still the same question?
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Yes, Mr. Speaker.
The Deputy Speaker: We have done with this question for today.
We have been debating it for 20 minutes and I clarified things
as best I could.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, I thank you sincerely for
your indulgence but I want to make sure I understand.
You said a moment ago that, regarding the events of a little
earlier this week, we should check with the Speaker who was in
the Chair at the time. I understand that answer.
However, I come back to my original question. Are there
criteria under Marleau-Montpetit—or whatever its name is—that guide
the Chair when it decides whether the House will deem that a
question is in order? It appears that earlier this week the
Speaker did not admit it because—
1220
The Deputy Speaker: Chapter 11 contains a number of passages
describing what is in order and what is not. I suggest the hon.
member and all the others read that, because it contains a lot
of information. It will help everyone plan questions and
answers in the House.
I think that puts an end to the debate.
TABLING OF DOCUMENTS
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, since we are talking about reading and you are not
prepared to enlighten us immediately on the question, I would
suggest to the government and to all members in this House
further reading in the context of a less happy debate, the debate
on Bill C-20.
It concerns an article that appeared in the daily La Presse on
November 29, entitled “Chrétien's statement suits Bouchard,
according to Dumont”.
With a view to enlightening this House in the context of Bill
C-20—
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent in the House to
table such a document?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I want
to take this opportunity to thank you for your good work.
Following the introduction by the Minister of Intergovernmental
Affairs of a bill denying the fundamental rights of Quebecers,
I ask for the unanimous consent of the House to table a document
that will enlighten the members.
The document is entitled “e maintien d'une union monétaire avec
un Québec séparé”, and do not tell me that I do not have the
unanimous consent of the House because I feel otherwise.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
following the introduction of a racist bill against Quebec and
Quebecers by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, I would
like to table an article from La Presse canadienne dated January
29, 2000, regarding the role of the Bloc Quebecois in the
achievement of sovereignty in Quebec—
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ): Mr. Speaker, following
the introduction, by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs,
of a bill denying the fundamental rights of Quebecers, I have
here a document entitled “Le statut politique et constitutionnel
du Québec”.
I ask for the unanimous consent of the House to table this
document that will enlighten the members on this issue.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
[English]
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned in response to questions
in the House, I would like to table in both official languages
the terms and conditions of the transitional jobs fund, the terms
and conditions of the Canada jobs fund, and the statistics used
to identify the 56 EI economic regions in Canada and the data for
1996, 1997, 1998 and 1999.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
[Translation]
TABLING OF DOCUMENTS
Mr. René Laurin (Joliette, BQ): Mr. Speaker, last January 5, Le
Droit published an article entitled “A breach of democracy”.
Following the referral to committee of a bill denying the
fundamental rights of Quebecers, I ask for the unanimous consent
of the House to table this document which was published in Le
Droit.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mrs. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ): Mr. Speaker, following the
introduction by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs of a
bill denying Quebecers their basic rights, I ask for unanimous
consent to table a document that will enlighten the House.
It is an article published in Le Soleil on December 4—
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
following the introduction by the Minister of Intergovernmental
Affairs of Bill C-20, denying Quebecers their basic rights, I
would like to table a document entitled “Un court historique des
unions monétaires d'États indépendants” that will certainly
enlighten the House.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
1225
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have here a
document from a reader of La Voix de l'Est who says “Whom do
they think we are in Ottawa? Some numbskulls who do not even
know French? They called their bill the clarity bill, and yet
there is nothing clear about it. They must not be trying to
enlighten the people”.
If sovereignty is mentioned, they will say we should talk about
independence. If independence is mentioned, they will say we
should talk about separation.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to table this
document?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien (Frontenac—Mégantic, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
following the announcement by the government that it was
introducing a bill drastically altering the rules of the game
should a referendum be held in Quebec, I ask for the consent of
all members present in this House to table a document that will
enlighten it.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in light of
the introduction by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs of
a bill that denies Quebecers their fundamental rights, I am
asking for the unanimous consent of the House to table a
document which will certainly enlighten this House.
It is an article on the advantages to Ontario of the separation
of Quebec, which appeared in La Presse on January 26.
The article states:
The sovereignty of Quebec would temporarily upset the economy of
Ontario but, in the long term, Canada's richest province would
undeniably gain from Quebec's departure from the federation.
This is what was revealed by the Globe and Mail yesterday, after
it managed, with great difficulty, to get its hands on secret
studies commissioned by the Government of Ontario during the
1995 referendum campaign, when everything seemed lost for the
federalists. According to these documents, Ontario felt at that
time that the federal government was prepared to use military
force if Quebec declared independence unilaterally. The
government of the neighbouring province also feared that
Quebec's departure might trigger a long recession and
destabilize the dollar.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon: It took three years—
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent for the tabling
of the document?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Deputy Speaker: The interpreters tell us that they cannot do
their job when everyone is talking at the same time.
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I
continue to read this document?
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): No, I am sorry. The
hon. member for Quebec did not understand correctly. It is
someone else's turn.
[Translation]
Mr. Ghislain Lebel : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. My
colleague, the hon. member for Québec, is preparing to table a
document and to read us that document. She is being interrupted.
I feel that we are being slighted here, because what is said here
becomes a historical record. It is taken down and printed.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I know the hon.
member for Chambly was incredibly interested in the document that
the member for Quebec was reading from, but we did put the
question to the House on the document for the member for Quebec
and it was denied.
[Translation]
Mr. Ghislain Lebel : Mr. Speaker, how can people give informed
consent if they do not know the content of the document?
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): That is a problem
that we deal with here on a daily basis.
1230
[Translation]
Mrs. Maud Debien (Laval East, BQ): Mr. Speaker, with leave of
the House, I would like to table an article published in Le
Devoir regarding Bill C-20, which reads as follows:
We learned of the federal government's decision to get involved,
through a bill, in the Quebec referendum process. In a
democracy, nothing is more dangerous than the opportunistic
manipulation of the rules. To try to have one's view prevail by
amending the procedure and by taking advantage of one's position
of force opens the door to serious excesses.
First, by setting the required support for sovereignty at a
threshold higher than 50% plus one, the government is trying to
influence things so as to make it impossible to achieve
sovereignty. We believe that this measure is highly undemocratic
and it was condemned by all the political parties at the
National Assembly. We believe that in a referendum debate on a
question to which voters would answer yes or no, the only
possible interpretation—
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is there unanimous consent
to table this document?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): Mr. Speaker, following the
introduction by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs of a
bill denying the basic rights of Quebecers—they are going even
further today by denying the rights of parliamentarians to bring
their own witnesses before the committee and to express at
length their position on this question so vital to Quebec and
Canada—I have in my hand an excellent article of the prestigious
La Tribune of Sherbrooke in which Mr. Dumont describes
Mr. Chrétien's action as pointless.
I consider it important to read you a few quotes from statements
by Mr. Dumont, who spoke very well on the issue. Mr. Dumont is
the president and leader of the ADQ. He has some importance in
the debate before us.
This is his second visit to Victoriaville.
Even though it is Sherbrooke's prestigious paper, the facts I am
going to quote for you took place in Victoriaville. It mentions
that the debate is underway and that the Prime Minister should
not continue his actions, because—
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Does the hon. member have
the unanimous consent of the House to table this document?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I am not questioning your judgment, which we know to be sound,
but my colleague from Saint-Jean had not yet asked for the
unanimous consent of the House when you rose to ask if he had
it. He must have the opportunity and the time to seek it,
before you ask whether he has it.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The Chair is given
certain discretion and were the Chair to have to wait for the
request for unanimous consent to come from the member, we could
be here until tomorrow or the next day waiting for the member to
ask that. So it is understood why the member is reading from the
document and therefore the Chair has exercised judgment, provided
the opportunity for a succinct description of the document to be
tabled and then to ask the House for its consideration.
In my estimation, the rules were completely and fully applied.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, you never cease to amaze me.
I see that you are even more talented and gifted than I
thought. You are now able to predict what one of our colleagues
is about to do. You are truly extraordinary, Mr. Speaker.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I thank the hon.
member for his vote of confidence.
[Translation]
Mr. Claude Bachand: Mr. Speaker, I wish to come back to your
ruling.
It is not that I wish to challenge it, but I would like you to
at least tell me which standing order states that you have
complete discretion in this regard.
1235
I do not wish to question your discretion, but neither can you
predict what I am going to request. I did not say I was calling
for unanimous consent because you did not leave me the time.
I would like you to indicate to which standing order you are
referring. I think it is important that we know. When
parliamentarians rise to speak, you may not, in your capacity as
Speaker, presume to know what they will request. I did not have
the time to formulate a request.
I therefore ask you to tell me which standing order you had in
mind.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I think that is a
very appropriate question, one that is often asked of members and
one that Chair occupants also have to ask themselves.
The reason is the authority vested in the Chair to maintain
order, decorum and the smooth running of the affairs of the House
to assure that all members of the House are given respect and the
opportunity to make their case. It is also to ensure that at the
end of the day the affairs of governance are concluded or are
able to reach conclusion in a fair and orderly manner. The
authority is not necessarily vested in a particular statute. The
authority is vested in the Chair after 500 years of parliamentary
tradition.
[Translation]
Mr. Yves Rocheleau (Trois-Rivières, BQ): Mr. Speaker, for the
purpose of this debate, I would like to table an article which
was published in Le Devoir on December 4, about six weeks ago,
and is still as pertinent today.
This article was entitled “Quebecers do not want Ottawa to
interfere”. Let me read the first paragraph of this excellent
article: “If Ottawa proceeds with a bill on the Quebec
referendum, the people from Quebec will not accept it, says
premier Bouchard, who is also asking the Canadian Prime Minister
to calm down. Before heading off for the capital city of Quebec
earlier today, Mr. Bouchard said that his federal colleague is
always looking for support, but mainly in English Canada.”
I think all this is pertinent. It is at the heart of the debate.
I request the unanimous consent of the House to table this
document that could certainly serve as food for thought for our
colleagues opposite. It is just one more attempt by the Prime
Minister, through his gofer, the Minister of Intergovernmental
Affairs, to play petty politics on the backs of the people of
Quebec, always on the backs of the people of Quebec, we will
never repeat it often enough.
This article is thus still very pertinent. Mr. Speaker, I urge
you to use all your wisdom and try to control all those people,
because we are obviously changing the rules of the game without
any mandate to do so.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon member for
Trois-Rivières has requested the unanimous consent of the House
to table a document. Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
[Translation]
Mr. Maurice Dumas: Mr. Speaker, when unanimous consent is
sought, the hon. members answering must be at their seats.
I have noticed that some members opposite are not in their usual
place, particularly the hon. member for Wentworth—Burlington who
just walked out but who was not in his place earlier.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: He could not say no from the seat he was
occupying.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The rules and the
precedence of the Chair are quite clear. When the Chair asks for
unanimous consent on this or any other motion, it is not
necessary for the members to be in their places. It is only
necessary for the Chair to recognize a member anywhere in the
Chamber. That can be behind the curtain. It can be anywhere in
the purview or the sight of the Chair. It can be anywhere that
the Speaker can see that the member is a sitting member.
In order to vote it is a completely different story. Members
must be in their seats at the time the question is read. It is
an interesting and a good question, but that is the reason.
[Translation]
Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have here part
of the report entitled “Rapport sur l'intégrité territoriale du
Québec dans l'hypothèse de l'accession à la souveraineté”, a
document that was tabled with the Commission d'étude des
questions afférentes à la souveraineté, in May 1992, in the
Quebec National Assembly.
It reads “The territory is well defined. The existing limits
constitute the borders of the new nation”.
I ask for the unanimous consent of the House to table this
document.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. member for
Rosemont has asked for the unanimous consent of the House to
table a document. Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
1240
[Translation]
Mr. Antoine Dubé (Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
I know you are very interested in my area, and that is why I
would like to read to you a quotation from an article in Le
Soleil of December 12, under the title “The Blues of the
Insurance Salesman”.
It reads “With a little bit of luck, obviously, the
intergovernmental affairs minister could have done an amazing
number of things in life. In the national hockey league, he
would have had the videocam set up inside the net to see whether
the puck gets across the thin red line or not. In the gardening
business, his success would have been even more immediate.
The intergovernmental affairs minister would have made a
phenomenal lawnmower. Not a single blade of grass would have
been left sticking out of the lawn—”
[English]
Mr. Derek Lee : Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order with
a view to guiding us back to the straight and narrow. It is
completely unnecessary for an hon. member to read the document
that he is requesting consent to table.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I thank the member
for that. I do understand that it is unnecessary, but it is the
purview of the Chair to determine how far they go along. When
the Chair has a sense of where this is going, the Chair will
intervene.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, in the context of the
comments by my hon. colleague, the Parliamentary Secretary to
the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, I would
like to get some advice from you.
Is it possible, under the Standing Orders, to rise on a point of
order during another point of order? Because, if I understand
correctly what has just happened, my hon. colleague for Lévis
had the floor on a point of order and, during his point of
order, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons rose on a point of order, and
you recognized him.
So, is it possible, under the Standing Orders, to rise on a
point of order during another point of order?
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): It depends on the
point of order. A point of order obviously has to relate to the
order of the proceedings of the legislation before the House.
If a point of order is raised because a point of order in
progress is out of order, perhaps because it is going on too
long, then it would be in order. However, if it were a short
distinct point of order then it would not be in order. To keep
order, the Chair must determine which point of order is or is not
in order.
In this instance, that point of order was in order, as well as
the one the member raised. However, the point of order of the
whip is not in order.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, my point of order was not
intended to call anyone to order, but to ask you what it was
possible to do or not to do in the circumstances. By your
answer, you have shown, once again, and once again I am
impressed, that you are gifted with divinatory talents.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. member for
Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, so that he can conclude.
Mr. Antoine Dubé: Mr. Speaker, I felt that the December 12
article by Mr. Gagné was very interesting because it dealt with
the Canadian Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.
I ask, in accordance with the rules, for unanimous consent to
table this very interesting document.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, being encouraged by the unanimous consent
given to the hon. member for Laval East to table a document
explaining how a majority of 50% plus one was adequate, I ask
for the unanimous consent of the House to table a newspaper
article.
1245
This article, entitled “Sovereignty: Chrétien is shadow
boxing”,
will help convince other Liberal members that a majority of 50%
plus one is the only majority acceptable in democracy.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is there unanimous consent
of the House?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mrs. Pauline Picard : Mr. Speaker, following the announcement
by the government of its intention to introduce a bill which will
change referendum rules in Quebec, I would like to table an
extract of the Referendum Act—
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I am sorry to interrupt the
hon. member, but she may not ask to table more than one document
today.
Mr. Gilles-A. Perron (Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, BQ): Mr. Speaker, with
your permission, following the introduction by the infamous
Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs of a bill denying all the
fundamental rights of Quebecers, I ask for the unanimous consent
of the House to table this document that will certainly
enlighten members opposite. It is an article published in Le
Devoir on February 10 last and entitled “Quebec made its nest in
Davos”.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I am sorry, but I missed
what the hon. member had to say, as I was speaking with the
clerk.
[English]
Is the member for Rivière-des-Mille-Îles asking a question of
me?
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry to wake you up or
to distract you from your intelligent discussion with your
colleague, but I have asked permission to table a document and I
sincerely believe that all members will give their consent.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Does the hon. member
for Rivière-des-Mille-Îles have unanimous consent to table a
document?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
[Translation]
Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand (Québec East, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have
in my hand an article that appeared in Le Soleil of November 29
entitled “Chrétien Haggling” and written by Jean-Jacques
Samson, which says:
Jean Chrétien can wait until the next Parti Quebecois convention
in May 2000 to do anything about setting the parameters of
another referendum on Quebec sovereignty. The Prime Minister of
Canada proposed a swap yesterday to Lucien Bouchard. If Mr.
Bouchard says he will not hold another referendum during his
present term of office, Mr. Chrétien promises to make no further
reference to referendums, the clarity of the question or the
decision by the supreme court.
In short, if you don't move, I won't.
Coming from anyone else, who had devoted the first part of his
speech before 1,000 delegates from the Quebec section of his
party to citing his duty and his responsibilities as the head of
the Government of Canada in order to justify his having no
choice but to intervene, this would have looked like a crudely
set trap. But coming from Jean Chrétien, he is simply showing
his true colours once again.
Mr. Chrétien is not motivated by a desire to settle this issue
once and for all before passing on the leadership, as some said
he would last week, he is apparently ready for a dirty deal—
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): As we all know, we
do not refer to members by name, even if we are quoting from
someone else. The rules of the House indicate that we refer to
members by their official titles or by their constituencies and
not by their names. The idea is that we cannot take in the back
door what we cannot bring in the front door.
That is just a general admonishment, but we need to get to the
point because we should not be reading from the total document.
If the hon. member for Quebec East wishes to table the document,
would the member ask for consent of the House and then we will
get on with it?
1250
[Translation]
Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand: Mr. Speaker, I will change a few words.
“The Prime Minister can wait until the next Parti Quebecois
convention in May 2000 to do anything about setting the
parameters of another referendum on Quebec sovereignty. The
Prime Minister of Canada has proposed a swap. If Mr. Bouchard
says he will not hold another referendum during—”
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Does the hon. member
for Quebec East have unanimous consent of the House to deposit
the document?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
[Translation]
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have
in hand an article from Le Monde of February 10, written by
Louise Beaudoin. Its title is “Quebecers and sovereignism”.
Further to the introduction of Bill C-20, we have learned that
the committee—which was meant to be the most democratic tool in
the world, allowing Quebecers and Canadians to be heard—is
refusing to accept briefs because they will not be appearing in
person. I have never seen anything so democratic.
Mrs. Beaudoin begins her article as follows. I would ask, Mr.
Speaker, that you at least listen to the first paragraph and you
will see how very important this is. She writes:
There must always be agreement on what words mean. Many words
have a number of different meanings attached. In France today,
a person described as a liberal can be, pick one, a supporter of
economic deregulation or a supporter of changing morality. That
same word in the 1950s and 1960s would have been applied to a
supporter of decolonization.
While such differences exist within France, they are even more
marked between France and Quebec.
I am seeking unanimous consent to table this document, as I am
sure that Canada would then finally understand what it is to be
a sovereignist in Quebec.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is there unanimous consent
for the tabling of this document?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I would like
to ask the Minister of Transport, who is in this House, to do
something about the speed at which the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs is proceeding with passage of Bill
C-20.
I am asking the Minister of Transport to approach the Minister
of Intergovernmental Affairs immediately, because what is going
on right now does not make any sense.
This bill is destroying democracy in Quebec. Also I am indignant
at the cavalier attitude of the legislative committee since it
started its consideration of the bill, and at the procedure of
the committee, which is embracing the undemocratic and arrogant
principles of the current Prime Minister and his lackey, the
member for Saint-Laurent—Cartierville.
On this matter—
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Fair is fair. When
I am in the chair I do not like to hear any member being
addressed by another member, even in a backhanded manner such as
to call someone else the valet of another member. It is just not
nice, so we are not going to do it. Would the hon. member for
Lotbinière please finish his point of order.
[Translation]
Mr. Odina Desrochers: Mr. Speaker, my comments regarding the
Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs were because, to me, the
way he behaves makes him a lackey. A lackey is someone in the
service of the king—
1255
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All right, we are
finished. The hon. member for Chambly.
[Translation]
Mr. Ghislain Lebel: Mr. Speaker, my colleague, the member for
Lotbinière had nearly finished his remarks. I was hanging on to
his every word. He has only a couple of words left to say, so
could you—
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I was listening very
carefully as well. I asked the hon. member not to refer to
another member in the manner that he did. When he referred to
the hon. member in the same way he was finished. I stood and
recognized the next member.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, I can understand that you
found my colleague's remarks a bit too long. I can understand
that you found the terms he was using somewhat inappropriate,
but once again I call on your divinatory talents to ask for the
unanimous consent of the House for the tabling of the document
he did not have the time to ask to table.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): No, with great
respect I will not. I asked the member for Lotbinière not to
refer to another member as a valet. When he did so a second time
I interrupted so that he would not have the floor. That is why I
went on to the next member.
[Translation]
Mr. Ghislain Lebel: Mr. Speaker, again on a point of order. I
was listening to my colleague very carefully, but I do not know
which member he was referring to. Could you tell us, Mr.
Speaker?
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I could but I will
not. Are there any other points of order? We are proceeding now
to the daily routine of business with the tabling of documents.
Does the hon. member wish to rise on a point of order? We would
have to have unanimous consent to do so. The hon. member for
Hochelaga—Maisonneuve.
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. If you will
allow me, and I do not want to push you because you have always
served the House well, with your permission, following the
introduction, by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, of a
bill—not just any bill—denying the fundamental rights of
Quebecers, whom you like so much, I ask for unanimous consent,
which I am about to get, to table a document entitled “Le
maintien d'une union monétaire avec un Québec séparé”—
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): With respect, the
member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve has already been on his feet,
so I will not recognize him again for the tabling of that
document under a point of order.
The House has proceeded to the daily routine of business. We
are on tabling of documents. We would require unanimous consent
of the House to go back.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, also on a point of order.
I know that during these multiple points of order we have
witnessed some interesting exchanges. Nevertheless, my colleague
from Chambly rose to ask for unanimous consent to table a
document.
For reasons that I just cannot understand, you did not recognize
him. Could you explain to me, Mr. Speaker, why you did not allow
my colleague from Chambly to go through with his request for
unanimous consent to table a document?
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I think that is a
fair request. After we finished our exchanges I rose again and I
asked twice, not once but twice with an interval, if there were
any other points of order. No one stood, so I went on then to
the daily routine of business.
1300
I understand that the hon. member for Chambly had not made his
request, but when I stood and no one rose there was nothing I
could do about it. We can revert, but it would require the
unanimous consent of the House.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron : Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. With all due respect, unless I do not understand the
standing orders of the House, unanimous consent is not required
for a member to rise on a point of order.
A member may at any time, except during Oral Question Period,
rise on a point of order. That is what the member for Chambly
wishes to do now and he does not need unanimous consent to
proceed.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I want to make it
clear that as the Assistant Deputy Speaker I am not setting a
precedent. This may be reviewed by the Speaker.
The informal procedure of accepting these multiple points of
order falls under the purview of the Speaker. Normally it is
done during Routine Proceedings. This week it was not.
The whip of the Bloc is quite correct. A member may at any time
rise on a point of order. The Chair may or may not recognize a
member rising on a point of order based on the discretion of the
Chair, depending upon what is going on in the House.
It is possible for the hon. member for Chambly to rise on a
point of order at any time, and then it will be up to the Chair.
But this Chair at this time would like to get through Routine
Proceedings, and I would be happy to recognize the hon. member
for Chambly on a point of order.
[Translation]
Mr. Ghislain Lebel : Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
Earlier, we went around and it was my turn to ask for unanimous
consent. That is when you stood up. When you did—the rule in
this place is that we sit down when the Speaker stands up—I took
my seat. But once you had stood up, you said that the member for
Chambly was seated and had not asked for the floor, when all I
was doing was complying with the standing orders.
I wish to know whether I am entitled to request unanimous
consent to table something.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. member for Chambly
has the floor.
Mr. Ghislain Lebel: Mr. Speaker, I ask for the unanimous consent
of the House to table a document which will be of great interest
to my friends across the way regarding the passage—
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The Chair is
exercising its discretion and will put the question to the House.
Does the hon. member for Chambly have the unanimous consent of
the House to deposit the document?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
1305
[English]
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-433, an act to amend the Criminal Code (search
and seizure without warrant).
He said: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to table this private
member's bill on search and seizure without a warrant.
The purpose of this bill is to ensure that if during the process
of a search and seizure property is damaged or lost, the people
who own the property will be compensated for that loss. It makes
sense. In the existing law there is a provision that the judge
who issues the warrant must be presented with the date of the
search and seizure, a description of what was seized and the
extent of the search. This bill would add to that a report on
any damage done for compensation purposes.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
PETITIONS
EQUALITY
Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
today I take great pride in presenting a petition put forth by
1,551 concerned Canadians, mostly from the province of Quebec.
The petitioners ask the government to affirm that all Canadians
are equal under all circumstances and without exception in the
province of Quebec and throughout Canada. They wish to remind
the government only to enact legislation that affirms the
equality of each and every individual under the laws of Canada.
MERCHANT NAVY VETERANS
Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
have a second petition which I would like to present.
Unfortunately this petition arrived late. It is signed by many
Canadians who are concerned about the plight of merchant navy
veterans.
As we know, after 55 years of being ignored, this issue has
finally come to fruition and has been settled. I wish to
compliment and thank the government very much for bringing this
sordid issue to an end.
I present this petition on behalf of merchant navy veterans.
[Translation]
GENETICALLY ENGINEERED FOODS
Mrs. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have two
petitions, one seven pages long and the other ten.
These petitions concern genetically modified products and
express the concern of citizens in the riding of Laurentides,
many of whom signed in order to indicate their desire to see
these products labelled, so that they may choose between natural
products and those that are genetically modified.
[English]
CHILD PORNOGRAPHY
Mr. John Maloney (Erie—Lincoln, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36, I wish to present a petition which
draws to the attention of the House that Canadians are horrified
by child pornography and are astounded by the legal determination
that possession of child pornography is not a criminal offence.
It is the duty of parliament, through the enactment and
enforcement of the criminal code, to protect the most vulnerable
members of our society from sexual abuse.
Therefore, the petitioners pray that parliament take all
measures necessary to ensure that the possession of child
pornography remains a serious criminal offence and that federal
police forces be directed to give priority to enforcing this law
for the protection of children.
Mr. Darrel Stinson (Okanagan—Shuswap, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, it is my pleasure to present two petitions today. The
first petition is signed by residents of the Vernon and Armstrong
areas of my riding of Okanagan—Shuswap.
These Canadians ask parliament to take all measures necessary to
ensure that the possession of child pornography remains a serious
criminal offence.
1310
NATIONAL HIGHWAYS
Mr. Darrel Stinson (Okanagan—Shuswap, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the second petition I will table today has been signed
by 192 people from my riding of Okanagan—Shuswap.
The petitioners call upon parliament to prioritize funding for
the national highway system in the 2000 budget to reduce
fatalities, alleviate congestion, reduce emissions and improve
Canada's overall economic prosperity.
[Translation]
GENETICALLY ENGINEERED FOOD LABELLING
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to
table in the House a petition from people in the riding of
Drummond and the area. The riding of Drummond being located in
the center of Quebec, there are also people from the Montérégie
who signed this petition. I am now tabling my third petition on
this issue, for a total of over 2,000 signatures.
The petitioners call on parliament to quickly pass legislation
to make it mandatory to label all foods that are totally or
partially genetically modified.
Mr. Yves Rocheleau (Trois-Rivières, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I too would
like to present a petition from people of the Mauricie region,
in the ridings of Champlain, Saint-Maurice, the Prime Minister'
riding, and Trois-Rivières.
This petition was signed by about 700 citizens who call on
parliament to quickly pass legislation to make it mandatory to
label all foods that are totally or partially genetically
modified.
[English]
IMMIGRATION
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I have
two petitions to table. The first petition deals with illegal
migrants from China and illegal refugee claimants.
Because of the hardship which these individuals cause to genuine
refugees, the petitioners state that the law must be changed to
allow for the quick deportation of those who come to our country
illegally to abuse the system.
I support this petition.
TAXATION
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
second petition has to do with taxation.
Because taxes have increased 30% under this government and
because high taxes kill jobs, the petitioners call upon
parliament to reduce taxes by 25% in the near future.
I fully support this petition.
[Translation]
GENETICALLY ENGINEERED FOOD LABELLING
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have
the honour to table in the House a petition that was signed
mainly by people from my riding, the beautiful region of
Rimouski—Mitis.
These petitioners call on the Government of Canada to pass as
soon and as quickly as possible legislation on the labelling of
foods containing, partially or totally, genetically modified
organisms, which would make labelling mandatory in all cases.
CANADA POST CORPORATION
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have here
a petition that I am pleased to table in this House.
The petitioners are asking that rural postal carriers, who often
earn less than minimum wage, be allowed to succeed in having
section 13(5) of the Canada Post Corporation Act repealed.
It is my hope that these carriers, who work in our regions and
ensure that mail is delivered in areas often a little more
remote, can win their case.
GENETICALLY ENGINEERED FOOD LABELLING
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have the
honour to table a petition signed mainly by constituents of my
riding of Québec, calling on parliament to quickly pass
legislation making it mandatory to label all fully or partially
genetically modified foods.
* * *
[English]
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Ms. Carolyn Parrish (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
ask that all questions be allowed to stand.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[Translation]
MUNICIPAL GRANTS ACT
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.) moved
that Bill C-10, an act to amend the Municipal Grants Act, be read
the third time and passed.
1315
Mr. Ghislain Lebel (Chambly, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am extremely
delighted today to have the opportunity to speak to Bill C-10, an
act to amend the Municipal Grants Act.
We do not want to mislead the population. We talk about grants,
but my colleague from Saint-Jean asked last week why we called it
grants since they are basically payments of property taxes. As
we used to say in law, and my colleagues who have studied in
that field have heard it often enough “The King can do no
wrong”. That is what is taught to law students on the very first
lesson of their very first day in school. Then I could add to
that saying that the King does not pay property taxes either.
That is the reason why there is a little subterfuge and the act
talks about grants instead of taxes.
However, if we look at it more closely, it could very well be
real grants. Usually, when we talk about grants, we talk about
the discretionary power of a minister. The minister can decide
to give or to refuse a grant. In this case, the title Municipal
Grants Act is not misleading since the discretionary power of
the minister is mentioned in clause 3 of the bill.
There is nothing more scary than the discretionary power of a
minister. Seldom do we see a minister having discretionary power
who does not end up dirtying his or her hands. We really do not
see it often. We have a very good example right now with all the
mess at HRDC involving two ministers, one who was there earlier
but has left since then and the other one who was not there
earlier but is in the middle of things right now.
This shows what discretionary power can do.
At the discretion of the Minister of Human Resources
Development, $500,000 was given to Wal-Mart. Poor Wal-Mart. It is
sad how little money they have. And they are not alone.
The Minister of Human Resources Development and her officials do
have discretionary power, and I see the member opposite shaking
her head, but it is really a discretionary power even if, under
the legislation, the minister has the authority to give grants
or to fund programs, there is a highly discretionary component
to all these things.
Here is an example. I know I am not a minister and I have no
such pretension, but here is an example.
Officials at Human Resources Development Canada divided my
riding, the beautiful riding of Chambly—and I take this
opportunity to say hello to the people of Chambly—into areas,
such as area 37 or 38. For these areas to be eligible for the
transitional jobs fund, their unemployment rate had to be over 12%.
The county town of Marieville is located in my riding, in the
middle of a vast countryside, a largely agricultural area, where
of course there is practically no unemployment. You may have a
father, a mother and even a son working on a farm, so no one is
unemployed.
The unemployed move to the county seat, the city of Marieville,
which has high unemployment, in excess of 12%. For a year now,
we have been asking the minister to transfer Marieville to the
adjacent area, Chambly, so that it could qualify for grants
under the transitional jobs fund, thus allowing people living in
Marieville to benefit from this program.
This request was made a year ago. It was made not only by
myself, but also by the municipal authorities, by Sylvain
Lapointe, the mayor of Marieville, whom I take this opportunity
to salute and who does an excellent job as a mayor, by the
chamber of commerce and by the MNA.
1320
Every stakeholder told the minister that it made no sense to
include Marieville in a rural area, while this city which has
between 5,000 and 6,000 residents and has high unemployment, but
cannot benefit from the transitional jobs fund.
I learned, during oral question period, that the minister have
given grants in her riding, where unemployment is clearly lower
than 12%. It is not always true that the shoemaker's children
are the worst shod, the minister's riding being proof of that.
The minister gave transitional jobs fund grants, even though her
riding does not seem to qualify for them.
To this she says “Yes, but in my riding, there are some pockets
where unemployment is higher than 12%”. The law does not give
her that authority. The law says that if in a particular area,
which is clearly defined, the unemployment rate is below 12%,
that is 11.99%, it does not qualify for transitory job fund
grants.
The same applies to the riding of the Prime Minister, who used
the same argument during oral question period last week or at
the beginning of this week. He says that in his riding there are
places—a street, a neighbourhood, a corner—where unemployment is
over 12%. But this is not what the law says. It says that in the
area as a whole unemployment must be 12% and above.
So members can see what discretionary power is. These people
will stop at nothing to meet their ends. Fortunately, once in a
while, they get caught, as it happened to the minister.
Do not ask me to show any pity, because what management at the
Department of Human Resources Development did is really
dishonest. I could give many examples and my friend, the member
for Trois-Rivières, has just as many of his own.
An hon. member: Especially concerning her predecessor.
Mr. Ghislain Lebel: The current minister's predecessor is a
sorry figure. He is the true culprit in this whole affair, but
the minister is trying to cover up for him. As my father used to
say “The one who is holding the bag is just as guilty as the one
who is filling it up”.
If discretionary powers do not offend these people any more than
that, I will give them a few examples.
A young nurse worked night shifts at the hospital, and when she
did, she got a 35 or 45 cent an hour premium for an eight hour
shift. She became unemployed, but she did not refuse any calls.
From time to time, she got a call to come to work, and the young
woman, who had just graduated from nursing school and who wanted
to gain experience and eventually find a full time job, said
yes. Whether it was a day shift, an evening shift or a night
shift, she went to work.
When she filled out her employment insurance card, she reported
working on that particular day. Her hourly wage at that time
was, say, $15 an hour. She wrote on the card that on that
particular day she worked an eight hour shift and earned eight
times $15, or $120.
Human Resources Development Canada realized that it was not
true, that she did not earn $120 but $122 because she had a
premium for working the night shift.
She received notices and was given fines. She had a public
servant after her for six months and had to pay penalties. She
was not given any chance even though the mistake was made in
good faith and her hourly wage was indeed, say, $15, as it is
generally the case for nurses.
An hon. member: They have quotas to meet.
Mr. Ghislain Lebel: These people have quotas to meet, probably
like the minister responsible for administering this act.
Perhaps he will be more generous with his friends than with his
enemies. When the mayor of a nice town is a potential Liberal
candidate in the next election, as was the case with some
members now sitting in the House, then the minister can be more
generous.
That is what discretionary powers are all about, and that is
what is dangerous in our system.
1325
At second reading, and in committee, I recall that we asked for
the discretionary powers given to the minister in this bill to
be delineated. My colleague, also on the committee, went to
speak to the Chair, no doubt to ask him to intervene, because
they do not like to hear people say such things, to hear about
abuse of discretionary powers.
I will give another example. In my riding there is a man who
has worked on an on-call basis for many years. He is a mover.
When a strong pair of arms are needed, they call him up, because
he is a pretty strong, pretty sturdy individual. Sometimes he
works a day or two, sometimes not at all. Every two weeks he
fills out his employment insurance card.
He made a mistake. For one week, he marked that he had not
worked Monday and Tuesday, and for the second week that he did
work Monday and Tuesday, when he had not worked that week. He
simply reversed the two weeks—
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Could the
hon. member over there please tell us what this story he is
telling us has to do with the bill we have before us?
An hon. member: He is getting to it. This is his introduction.
Mr. Ghislain Lebel: Mr. Speaker, it is not up to the member
opposite to decide what I will say in my speeches. I know he
did not understand anything.
I am showing you the meaning of the abuse of discretionary
powers and where it can lead. For those who are not friends of
the government, who are not members of the Liberal Party of
Canada, it becomes dangerous.
So, my mover muddles his weeks. He did not intend to do
anything wrong and there is no benefit for him in doing so. He
says he did not work two days he worked, but he says he worked
two days the next week he did not work. It amounts to the same
thing. He was fined $800. The cheque was recovered, interest
was charged and the man was threatened with a charge of fraud.
This is how the management of the Department of Human Resources
Development dealt with him.
An hon. member: To give it to whom? To Wal-Mart.
Mr. Ghislain Lebel: To give it to whom? To give it to Wal-Mart,
to Bombardier, to Pratt & Whitney, to Vidéotron or other such
companies under the transitional jobs fund. Do you not think
that is disgusting?
An hon. member: It is scandalous.
Mr. Ghislain Lebel: A widow came to see me after her husband
died. The Department of Revenue had begun to bug him for some
paltry amount, a pittance. They went after her husband right to
his grave. He was dead, and the letters kept coming.
I am saying that it is not normal when you look into the system,
and the Prime Minister wants us to believe there was only about
$251 in fraud at the Department of Human Resources Development.
It is totally criminal to change and alter truth like that:
$251.50. Are we a pack of lunatics here? Tie up parliament for
$251.50.
My colleague, the member for Rivière-des-Mille-Îles calculated it
on a pro rata basis, the rule of three. The figure involved is
$2.8 billion or more exactly $2,750,754—
[English]
Ms. Carolyn Parrish: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I seek the unanimous consent of the House to consider
this bill having been read a third time so that we can vote it in
and the municipalities can get their money.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon.
parliamentary secretary has requested the unanimous consent of
the House to see the bill as read a third time. Is there
unanimous consent?
An hon. member: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I wish
to point out to hon. members and those now listening that it is
not at all because we feel that this bill is not important, but
I think that the member for Chambly has some important things to
say about it. I would like him to be allowed to continue.
1330
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): When the bill next
comes before the House the hon. member for Chambly will have 25
minutes and 54 seconds to add to the debate. The time provided
for Government Orders has now expired.
It being 1.30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the
consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on today's
order paper.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[English]
WESTRAY MINE
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC)
moved:
That, in the opinion of this House, the Criminal Code or other
appropriate federal statutes should be amended in accordance with
Recommendation 73 of the Province of Nova Scotia's Public Inquiry
into the Westray disaster, specifically with the goal of ensuring
that corporate executives and directors are held properly
accountable for workplace safety.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from
Tobique—Mactaquac for seconding this very important motion.
Briefly, to recall, importantly of course, that on May 9, 1992
an explosion occurred at the Westray mine in Plymouth, Nova
Scotia, killing 26 men. It was a horrible tragedy and one that
was felt throughout the province of Nova Scotia, and indeed
across the country.
Many Nova Scotians acted in a very heroic fashion that deadly
day in May 1992. To those creative draggermen who were so
directly involved in the efforts to locate the 26 miners who lost
their lives, we will be forever grateful. Many of those
draggermen came from across Nova Scotia, and indeed across the
country. They worked, sadly in vain, to rescue the 26 men.
Coal mining and the coal industry in northeastern Nova Scotia
has been very important for generations. Pictou County
Colliers, by James Mr. Cameron, chronicles the history of coal
mining in that part of Canada.
The devastation of the Mother's Day disaster at Westray mine
nearly eight years ago has left a very long and painful memory in
the hearts and minds of miners and people generally across the
province.
The explosion at the Westray Coal mine sent a very chilling
message to people. That message was that haste and financial
gain can put individual lives at risk. Many owed their
livelihood, gave their lives and lost their lives underground
during the past 150 years.
Many in Nova Scotia, in particular, recall the bump at Spring
Hill or the cave-ins and explosions in Pictou county and in Cape
Breton. Artists, such as Rita MacNeil and the Men of the Deep,
have sung poignant songs in remembrance of those lost souls.
The death of the 26 coal miners came as very unexpected and very
sad to the peaceful community of Plymouth, that, from the very
second that those fathers, brothers and sons were taken away from
their families, people were left immediately with having to come
to grips with the tragedy, and a tragedy that could have been
avoided.
That is why it is so incumbent upon us as legislators to ensure
that there are safe working environments for all workers engaged
in labour activity, whether it is a mine, a fish plant, an
automotive factory or any other work environment. It is
incumbent upon us as legislators to move toward making those work
places safe.
Days after the Westray explosion, on May 15 the Government of
Nova Scotia appointed Mr. Justice Peter Richard to act as the
head of a commission to inquire, under the public inquiries act,
into what took place at the Westray mine.
The commission had a very broad mandate, so as to shed light on
the explosion and all the related circumstances that led up to
that tragic day. In fact, Nova Scotia's premier at the time,
Donald Cameron, was very clear about that mandate. He said:
Mr. Justice Richard's inquiry will not be limited to the events
of the early morning of May 9th. Nothing and no person with any
light to shed on this tragedy will escape the scrutiny of the
inquiry.
The commission's work began almost immediately to prepare for
the public hearings set to begin in October 1992.
Curragh Resources Inc. and Westray's management challenged the
validity of the order in council establishing the commission of
inquiry.
This, as members can imagine, led to numerous legal proceedings.
Because of the delays, the report from Mr. Justice Richard was
tabled five years later, in November 1997.
1335
There was an incredible amount of wrangling that went on in the
criminal courts and charges laid under the workers' safety act
also led to much of the delay and much of the frustration that
occurred as a result of the wranglings.
This is a very important matter for all and I would appreciate
the attention of members who are in the Chamber.
The Westray story is one that is very complex and a mosaic of
actions, omissions, mistakes, incompetence, apathy, cynicism and
downright stupidity were viewed in context. These seemingly
isolated incidents constituted a mindset of operating philosophy
that appeared to favour expediency over intelligent planning that
trivializes safety concerns. Indeed, management at Westray
displayed a certain disdain for safety and appeared to regard
safety conscious workers as wimps in the organization.
To its discredit, the management at Westray, through either
incompetence or ignorance, lost sight of the basic tenet of coal
mining that safe mining is good business. These words came
directly from the report of Mr. Justice Richard, a report that
was entitled “The Westray Story: A Predictable Path to
Disaster”. It contained 74 recommendations and concluded in its
final analysis that the tragedy could have been avoided if
minimal occupational safety standards had been adhered to.
There are always ways to prevent tragedies. Sometimes they
cannot be avoided, but there are ways to eliminate the risk and
the environment which costs people's lives or often leaves them
injured for the remainder of their lives. There are ways to
attach criminal responsibility to those actions that put people's
lives at risk. Sometimes corporations and those at the head end
and the head office of these corporations should, I suggest, be
brought into some degree of culpability and accountability by our
legislation, particular in the criminal code.
There are ways that this can be done: through amendments and
through legislative initiatives. Some of those were proposed by
Justice Richard. One proposal in particular would be to create a
new criminal offence that would impose criminal liability on the
directors or those responsible for failing to ensure that their
corporation maintains an appropriate standard of occupational
health and safety in the workplace. This is precisely what this
motion hopes to achieve.
In Nova Scotia mining is regulated by three pieces of
legislation: the mineral resources act, the occupational health
and safety act and the coal mines regulation act. Mr. Justice
Richard in his report reviewed all of these provincial acts and
concluded that the main purpose was to ensure safety.
Unfortunately we have seen in recent years examples of
occupational safety in the workplace taking second spot behind
the bottom line, the financial line, which is especially true in
the mining industry where the very nature of the work involves a
great deal of risk and a great deal of danger just as a course of
the type of work that is done underground. It is the duty of
company officers to ensure that work is done in the safest of all
possible conditions.
We want to ensure that individuals inside and outside corporate
Canada will be dealt with equitably and fairly under the law, but
we want to ensure that there is that degree of accountability,
that executives will not be able to hide behind the corporate
veil and the job titles in the commission of their duties.
Corporate Canada understandably has two related functions: to
make a profit and to create jobs. Profit is a good thing but the
balance has to be struck between the profit and the cost that is
sometimes incurred by reckless behaviour. There must be a balance
between making a profit and the means by which to get there.
Section 220 of the criminal code currently refers specifically
to criminal negligence causing death and there are sections under
section 234 of the criminal code pertaining to manslaughter.
There may be a need to introduce amendments to these sections
that would broaden the scope of culpability or perhaps even go so
far as to make a specific reference to executives, directors or
persons in management positions when pertaining to acts which
result in the loss of life.
1340
I brought this motion forward with the hope that the devastation
of the Westray disaster will not be forgotten. I can assure the
House and Canadians generally that those in Pictou county and in
all of Nova Scotia recall with horror that period of time between
May 1992 and the current has left in the minds of all.
It is as important today to ensure that the recommendations of
the inquiry are not forgotten. Sadly, all Canadians have borne
witness to reports that have been completed; the white papers
that have been completed by royal commissions that have done
their work. These reports wind up on a shelve gathering dust
with no action.
Words are not enough when it comes to protecting lives in this
instance. It is important that we follow the recommendations of
this report, that we actually act with a great deal of strength
in responding to the work that has already been done.
The fundamental and basic responsibility of safe operation of an
underground coal mine is an industrial undertaking that rests
very much with the owners and the managers. Westray management,
starting with the chief executive officer, was required by law,
by good business practice and good conscience, to design and
operate a mine safely. Westray management came under attack in
the ensuing days after the explosion for being lax in that
responsibility.
The significance of that failure cannot be overstated. Simply
because others were abdicating their responsibility is not a
satisfactory response. Shared responsibility can be said to be
implicit in the recommendations that came from the report.
Not only in the mining industry but also in any business
venture, corporate executives sometimes seem less interested in
the merits of workplace safety and simply in the pursuit of
profit. This is a very dangerous situation. We must be mindful
of the situation that can evolve and can result in tragedy. This
mindset itself is precisely what set the dangerous tone in the
workplace of the mine at Westray.
Businesses must also ensure that their employees are adequately
supervised and constantly updated as to safe work practices. In
the case of Westray, labour safety standards, particularly
minimal safety standards, were not adhered to to the extent that
they should have been.
Looking at this issue in the larger context, there must also be
a recognition of the role of government to ensure that these
proper standards are being met. If they are not being met, the
government must intervene through its inspectors and simply see
that the workplace is closed until those minimal standards are
adhered to.
In the case of Westray, many trades persons were prone to
perform unsafe tasks and take shortcuts in their daily routines,
never once being told by management of the dangers of such
actions given that the mine was very gassy and potentially
explosive, as the Foord seam has been known to be throughout its
history. In many cases there was no question that the management
may have been aware or ought to have been aware that the workers
were not performing safe mining practices underground.
As stated in Mr. Justice Richard's report, there was a strong
indication that the Westray management was aware of the levels of
methane underground, which the coal miners were exposed to, and
that these levels of methane were very hazardous and potentially
explosive. Under section 72 of the Coal Mines Regulation Act,
such conditions should have resulted in the workers being
withdrawn from affected areas. That, of course, was one method
of preventing the tragedy that resulted.
It stands to reason that when weighing business goals versus
those of safety, sometimes businesses find themselves pulled by
many factors. They have to meet production deadlines,
competition to out-perform bottom lines and, in this case, there
were government moneys involved that increased the pressure.
This is where the human element of safety must also enter into
the equation. Far too often businesses, and indeed heads of
corporations, may be tempted by that financial gain and put the
safety of workers second. That type of short term gain for long
term pain, as we have seen in the Westray example, is something
that we seek to avoid by this motion. Of course, I speak to the
injury of death that can result. It is a sad, sad scenario that
we should learn from.
Tough economic times that exist in the country put further
pressure on workers. This is why this motion, I suggest, is very
timely. The economic impact of having to shut down corporations
inevitably affects everyone in that region.
The employees, the management, the board of directors, anyone
associated with that business feels the negative impact of an
operational shutdown.
1345
This is the cost of doing business. If we have to shut down
these businesses to ensure that lives are protected, that is what
has to happen.
Companies must do everything in their power, and I suggest that
we as legislators similarly are mandated to do everything in our
power to ensure that hazardous workplaces are dealt with in a
proactive way as opposed to reactive, as we have seen in Westray.
If companies have not acted properly, have not adhered to the
legislation, both provincial and federal, there must be
consequences.
Ethics and the results of this tragedy dictate that we should go
further, that we have to now act, pick up the report and move
this matter forward. This is a very serious instance. Business
executives find themselves in a position where they are insulated
from the consequences of their potential negligence and potential
lax control over what is taking place on the ground. Business
executives must promote and nurture safe work ethics and have an
open and approachable attitude toward their employees. No one
ever wants to feel the effects of what took place in Plymouth at
the Westray mine again.
I appreciate the non-partisan tone that has taken place on
previous occasions on the debate of this particular motion. I
would suggest that there is a great deal of impact that all
members can have in this area. We must hold to account
individuals who behave recklessly and without conscience that
results in lost lives.
We are empowered here with the knowledge, the know-how and the
ability to make legislation that can have effect, very real
effect on workplace safety. We are empowered as officials to
exercise our discretion to ensure that those who are operating
businesses and those who have the final say over what takes place
in the work world are adhering to safe practice.
I appreciate the support that all members thus far have shown
for this motion. I am very concerned that we are only paying lip
service to this issue. I very much look forward to the comments
and the support of all members of the House to ensure that we
move forward and do everything within our power to ensure that
workplace safety is a priority in this country. It is something
that we in parliament are very concerned about and are prepared
to take positive action toward improving.
Mr. John Maloney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
am pleased to speak to Motion No. 79.
The motion from the hon. member for
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough recommends that this House
express its opinion that the criminal code should be amended to
address the issue of the criminal liability of corporate
executives and directors. I commend the member opposite for again
bringing this issue before the House. It is one which requires
our serious consideration.
It is evident that this motion has its origins in a tragic
explosion in the Westray mine on May 9, 1992 in which 26 miners
were killed. The subsequent public inquiry set up by the Nova
Scotia government clearly established that mismanagement created
an unsafe working environment that was a direct cause of the
disaster. Throughout the inquiry and the prosecutions that
followed from the investigation into the tragedy the
responsibility of Westray officers and the Westray Corporation
itself emerged as important and contentious issues.
The inquiry, chaired by Mr. Justice Peter Richard, produced the
four volume report “The Westray Story: A Predictable Path to
Disaster”. Judge Richard's report set out 74 recommendations
aimed at improving mine safety so that such incidents never
happen again, so that mining operations never again, in his
words, go down that path to disaster.
I would like to read into the record recommendation 73 of Mr.
Justice Richard's report as it forms the basis of the motion we
are debating today:
The Government of Canada, through the Department of Justice,
should institute a study of the accountability of corporate
executives and directors for the wrongful or negligent acts of
the corporation and should introduce in the Parliament of Canada
such amendments to legislation as are necessary to ensure that
corporate executives and directors are properly accountable for
workplace safety.
I agree there is merit in examining the criminal law as it deals
with the criminal responsibility of corporations. However, it is
much more likely that we will need a combination of preventive,
remedial and punitive measures in order to keep us from going
down that path of disaster again. The solutions to the problem of
corporate responsibility therefore will be found in a mix of
criminal law, labour code regulation and the regulation of
business activity.
1350
Before I address the role of the criminal law in such a system,
I will give an example of how preventive and remedial measures
outside the criminal code can advance the objectives of workplace
safety.
On October 28 last year the Minister of Labour introduced Bill
C-12, a package of amendments to part II of the Canada Labour
Code designed to improve workplace safety in industries under
federal jurisdiction.
This legislation expands the responsibilities of both employers
and employees in creating a safe work environment. It
establishes three fundamental rights for employees: the right to
know about hazards in the workplace; the right to participate in
correcting the hazards; and the right to refuse dangerous work.
There is no point in having a right without a remedy. Therefore,
Bill C-12 expands the role of workplace health and safety
committees in inspecting workplaces and in investigating
complaints. Similarly when an employee refuses to perform tasks
that are considered dangerous, the legislation will streamline
the complaint resolution process.
The Canada Labour Code also makes it an offence to contravene
any of these rules and creates sanctions in the form of fines and
terms of imprisonment.
We can leave the debate on Bill C-12 to another day but I urge
colleagues to keep in mind that initiatives such as Bill C-12
serve many of the same objectives as the criminal law changes
suggested by Judge Richard in the Westray report.
The motion before us today does not actually identify a
particular amendment to the criminal code. Therefore, I would
like to point out some of the factors involved in creating a
criminal law sanction for corporate misconduct in the workplace.
Any examination of the criminal law in this area must consider
both the responsibility of a corporation itself and the liability
of the people who are employed by that company.
On the first point, it should be understood that under the
current law, it is already possible to charge a corporation with
a crime. Section 2 of the criminal code includes companies in
the definition of person and there have been instances where
corporations have been charged with crimes. In fact in the
Westray case, charges of manslaughter and criminal negligence
causing death were laid against Curragh, Inc., the owner and
operator of the mine, as well as individual employees of the
company.
It is also important to note that the Supreme Court of Canada
held in a 1985 case that a corporation will generally be liable
for a criminal offence if a corporate director or officer commits
an offence for the benefit of the corporation in the course of
his or her employment.
In 1993 a subcommittee of the House Standing Committee on
Justice and Solicitor General, as it was then called, issued a
report on the recodification of the general part of the criminal
code. This is the part that deals with fundamental components of
criminal offences such as culpability and defences.
The subcommittee took the view that express rules on the
liability of corporations should be added to the general part in
a way that makes a sharper distinction between the company's
liability and that of its employees. The subcommittee
recommended as follows:
A corporation [should be] liable for conduct committed on its
behalf by its directors, officers or employees acting within the
scope of their authority and identifiable as persons with
authority over the formulation or implementation of corporate
policy, notwithstanding that no director, officer or employee may
be held individually liable for the same offence.
If we want to change the current law, there are other approaches
that deserve consideration.
Australian law makes it possible for a company to be charged
with offences requiring intention, knowledge, recklessness or
negligence. The Australian statute focuses on actions by the
company's board of directors and its agents that tacitly or
expressly authorize or permit the commission of a criminal
offence.
I will turn briefly to the criminal liability of individual
employees of a corporation as opposed to the corporation itself.
As individuals the employees can be charged with any criminal
offence they commit and for which they are morally responsible.
Section 23 of the criminal code also creates criminal liability
for anyone who is a party to an offence, which means doing or
omitting to do anything for the purpose of aiding someone to
commit that offence, or abetting that person in committing the
offence. Section 23 also makes it an offence to counsel another
person to be a party to a crime. Therefore, there is already a
way of getting at individual employees whose misconduct in the
course of their duties amounts to a crime.
These provisions in the criminal code are important because if
the corporation has a general duty to comply with the law,
individual directors and officers also have a duty to take into
account interests beyond those of shareholders and beyond the
balance sheet.
I understand that in the aftermath of the Westray inquiry the
attorney general for Nova Scotia requested that the Minister of
Justice for Canada address recommendation 73 of the Westray
report and that the minister has agreed to do so.
This step having been taken, I would suggest that the motion
before us today does not advance the process.
1355
Finally, criminal laws created by parliament should also
recognize the role of provinces in the area of workplace safety.
In this regard I note that the Westray report also recommends
that the province of Nova Scotia undertake a review of its
occupational health and safety legislation and take whatever
steps are necessary to ensure that officers and directors of
corporations doing business in the province are held properly
accountable for the failure of the corporation to secure and
maintain a secure workplace.
For these reasons I oppose this motion as it does not further
the study of criminal law in this area.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
MODERNIZATION OF BENEFITS AND OBLIGATIONS ACT
BILL C-23—NOTICE OF TIME ALLOCATION
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, an agreement could not be
reached under the provisions of Standing Orders 78(1) or 78(2)
with respect to the second reading stage of Bill C-23, an act to
modernize the Statutes of Canada in relation to benefits and
obligations.
[Translation]
Under the provisions of Standing Order 78(3), I give notice that
a minister of the crown will propose at the next sitting a
motion to allot a specific number of days or hours for the
consideration and disposal of proceedings at the said stage.
Some hon. members: Shame, shame.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[English]
WESTRAY MINE
The House resumed consideration of the motion.
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
I rise with pleasure to participate in this debate.
I have great respect for the member for
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough. It is imperative that I read
the motion followed by recommendation 73 from the Westray report
which has precipitated the member's motion.
Motion No. 79 reads:
That, in the opinion of this House, the Criminal Code or other
appropriate federal statutes should be amended in accordance with
Recommendation 73 of the Province of Nova Scotia's Public Inquiry
into the Westray disaster, specifically with the goal of ensuring
that corporate executives and directors are held properly
accountable for workplace safety.
Recommendation 73 of the Westray inquiry reads:
The Government of Canada, through the Department of Justice,
should institute a study—
I emphasize the word study.
Recommendation 73 clearly calls upon the Government of Canada
through the justice department to institute a study to ensure the
accountability of corporate executives. I have no problem with
this.
Let us take a closer look at this issue. Motion No. 79 calls
for immediate amendment to the Criminal Code of Canada or other
appropriate federal statutes without first studying the
parameters of corporate responsibility. I say with the greatest
respect for the member from Nova Scotia who I understand is very
sincere in what he is trying to do that it is a bit premature. I
want to get into the specifics and I offer this as a constructive
criticism.
The ramifications of the criminal code changes are immense and
in many cases final. My objection to the member's initiative in
no way is meant to diminish what he is trying to do. We cannot
diminish the extent of this tragedy and the loss of 26 lives.
We should follow the guidance of recommendation 73 before making
that quantum leap to amend the criminal code.
The issue of corporate responsibility is a shifting paradigm.
The composition of corporations and the roles of directors who
sit on their boards are in constant evolution. I am uncertain
how much empirical evidence and resources are at our disposal to
adequately understand corporate responsibility, specifically the
role of accountability which we assign to directors.
1400
The law has some guidelines and statutory parameters regarding
business organization. The corporate form of business
organization is intended to protect shareholders from personal
liability for civil debts of the corporation. Executives,
directors or other officers and employees of the corporation
enjoy no special immunity from either criminal or quasi-criminal
liability. Such persons are legally accountable for their own
personal wrongdoing and negligence. Corporations can be held
criminally liable in their own right.
In the case of offences of absolute or strict liability, a
corporation is subject to penal liability for unlawful acts or
omissions of the corporation per se or for those employees and
agents in the context of corporate duties. In the case of an
actual criminal offence, corporations are liable for the acts and
omissions of such persons who by reason of their relevant
position or authority in the corporation may be said to
constitute the “directing mind” of the corporation.
In the November 1997 report on the Westray disaster, Mr. Justice
Peter Richard recommended that applicable federal and provincial
laws should be reviewed and amended to ensure that corporate
directors and executives are held properly accountable for
workplace safety. I do not disagree on the magnitude of this
disaster and the 26 lives that were lost. I do not want to
diminish that, but it is important that when we make these
changes we get them right.
The member's motion wants to go much further. It would
ostensibly make it easier to fix criminal liability on
corporations by calling for a new criminal offence. Mr. Justice
Richard did not go that far. He wanted to proceed in steps.
Justice Richard called for a study of corporate responsibility,
recognizing the shifting and evolving nature of corporations,
their composition and the role of directors.
Allow me to identify what I see as some of the real problems
with this motion. Corporations would have a major problem
attracting viable candidates who want to sit on a board with such
criminal code penalties affixed to them as called for in Motion
No. 79. I dare say no one would want the job but the
implications for corporations without boards is obvious under
commercial and corporate laws. Smaller or struggling companies
would be at a greater disadvantage if such standards for
accountability were applied to them.
I am not saying there should not be responsibility and I am not
saying directors should be able to hide from their duties and
social responsibilities. I do not want to see punitive and
debilitating roadblocks to growth thrown in their path and
consequently that of the corporation.
I for one believe that the majority of corporations serve a
social purpose and are concerned with workplace safety. I say
this with some credibility. I was a safety officer for a
forestry company in British Columbia and I can attest that
although accidents happen they were taken very seriously. I am
sure they do not want to see accidents happen.
A blanket criminal code amendment would do little to foster
economic growth and jobs. There must be a balance between making
a profit and operating as an ethical and socially responsible
enterprise. That balance can be precarious. The impacts
criminal censure can have must be weighed carefully. Furthermore,
I have to ask what the responsibilities and consequences would be
for shop stewards on the floor. I am not suggesting by any means
that we should be looking at imposing criminal sanctions on them,
but they also play a very important role in workplace safety.
This has to be evaluated at the same time.
I would further ask whether the member for
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough has given any thought to the
responsibilities of federal and provincial labour inspectors.
Motion No. 79 could have devastating consequences for doing
business in Canada. It would have a serious impact on investment
and would add dramatically to operating costs and consequently
the profits and the motivation to expand. Employment levels in
corporations would no doubt be reduced. The less people, the
less chance for accidents. Would production levels not also be
reduced?
It would be unreasonable to expect each and every director of
every corporation to be cognizant of every aspect of health and
safety within any given corporation. It is very important to
have every director involved in day to day operations.
I appreciate in the example of Westray that obviously there was
a massive problem. Twenty-six lives were lost and I do not want
to minimize that. If every prospective member is expected to
assume this type of responsibility there would be no candidates
to sit on a board.
1405
I concur with the member in his genuine concern for the welfare
of the miners and in his hopes that such a tragedy will never be
repeated. However, despite the honourable intentions of this
motion I fear he has not taken the full picture into account.
Without question Westray was a reprehensible disaster. No one
can diminish the human tragedy that descended upon that community
and its people.
However, it is important to recognize that the crown currently
has powers under the criminal code to charge negligent mine
managers who were on site and who were responsible. Let us
follow the direction contained in recommendation 73 of the
Westray inquiry and review the responsibilities of directors
before we move to criminal code amendments.
In short, I am saying let us not make that quantum leap. Let us
do a very comprehensive study because it will have a serious
impact on corporations across the country. Let us make sure what
we are doing is absolutely right. There are provisions right now
for the people in the day to day management positions.
I commend the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough for
bringing the motion forward. It is a very important one, but we
want to make sure we get it watertight and we get it right
because it could have some very negative consequences on the
corporate and business communities of Canada. This seems to be
the direction in which the member for Erie—Lincoln was going as
well.
Mrs. Michelle Dockrill (Bras d'Or—Cape Breton, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I am very proud to stand here today as a coal miner's
daughter and as a coal miner's granddaughter to speak to this
private member's motion. It is a subject that is very close to
my heart. My colleagues in the New Democratic Party and I
support the motion in principle.
The hon. member for Halifax has a bill on the order paper, Bill
C-259. Its intent and purpose are the same as those of the
motion before us today. However it is more legal in nature and
takes the intent of this motion one step further to legislate
changes. We in the NDP have long been involved in the process
and in lobbying for that step.
We would like to see the criminal code amended to ensure that
corporate executives and directors are held properly accountable
for workplace safety. We in the NDP caucus have been actively
involved with the United Steelworkers of America in its lobbying
for accountability in workplace health and safety issues. The
impetus for the work we have been doing with the steelworkers
union was the tragedy at the Westray coal mine in 1992 that
killed 26 miners.
The tragedy at Westray was caused by a spark from a continuous
mining machine that ignited methane gas, which then caused a coal
dust explosion. Following this tragedy we in the NDP, our
sisters and brothers in the United Steelworkers of America and
the families of the miners killed in that explosion have worked
to make the law clear and prevent deaths and injuries. We have
to send a message to decision makers that they will be held
accountable for their decisions.
I made very clear when I stood before the House to address this
motion before, and I will make it perfectly clear again, that we
have reached a stage of evolution in society. We will no longer
allow people to use the excuse that we were just following orders
as a defence for knowingly and willingly causing harm of any kind
to others. We as a parliament must take our responsibility to
ensure that we live up to the most basic foundation of law and
order that people are responsible for their own actions.
After the disaster at Westray a public inquiry was established
through the efforts of United Steelworkers of America. The
inquiry was given a simple mandate to probe whether or not the
explosion was preventable. After 76 days of testimony over a 14
month period the Westray inquiry, headed by Mr. Justice Richard
of the Nova Scotia supreme court, released its report.
The report
cannot be called anything less than a condemnation of the way in
which Westray executives operated the mine prior to the
explosion. Mr. Richard was very clear in his report that the
actions and attitudes of the management at Westray sent the
message that worker safety was not a priority.
The miners at Westray, including those who were killed in the
explosion in 1992, were expected to produce coal at the expense
of worker safety.
1410
This motion is in essence to adopt recommendation No. 73 of the
Westray report. I would like to take the opportunity to read the
recommendation to the House:
The Government of Canada, through the Department of Justice,
should institute a study of the accountability of corporate
executives and directors for the wrongful or negligent acts of
the corporations and should introduce in the Parliament of Canada
such amendments to legislation as are necessary to ensure that
corporate executives and directors are held accountable for
workplace safety.
The intent of Mr. Richard and the commission is clear. As
federal parliamentarians we must take the initiative and
introduce changes to the criminal code to ensure corporate
accountability in the workplace.
The motion allows us to try to rise above the daily hullabaloo
of partisan politics of late. If the motion is passed or adopted
by the House, it would be the first step on the road to ensuring
that those firms, mining or other, which run their businesses in
a responsible way are rewarded. Their reward would come from the
punishment of those firms that run their businesses in unsafe
ways in their shameful attempt to cut prices. Those businesses
that put their workers in danger would not be allowed to operate.
We in Cape Breton know only too well about these kinds of
unscrupulous businesses. We do not have to look much further
than at the coal industry to provide what should be enough
examples to give all my hon. colleagues in the House enough
reason to adopt the motion and then go the next step and change
the criminal code.
Let me be perfectly clear. This is not about bashing business
but about legislating responsible business practice. Responsible
business practice means that employers, especially those who run
businesses that involve elements of physical or mental risk to
their employees, must be accountable if things go wrong. That is
precisely what Justice Richard, the families of the miners who
died at Westray, the steelworkers and we in the NDP caucus have
been trying to do: legislate a framework for responsible
business practices as it relates to health and safety of workers.
We as members of parliament must take the lead on this issue,
which is why I commend my hon. colleague from
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough on his efforts to have this
important motion brought before the House. If we could then see
our way to legislating the recommendation of Justice Richard's
report, we could help prevent disasters like the one we saw at
Westray from ever happening again. It would also not just be in
cases of such catastrophic events. This type of legislation
would help in creating safer and healthier working environments
on a daily basis.
In Westray's case, only two of the executives of the corporation
ever appeared before the inquiry. The other executives did not
want to give evidence of their crime and resisted all attempts to
get them to appear as witnesses. Criminal proceedings against
some of the executives had to be dropped because the lawyers
concluded that there was no reasonable chance that a conviction
could result.
It was not that the lawyers found nothing criminal about their
activities. No, the truth was that the evidence was there but
the laws were not. There were no laws to prevent the deaths and
injuries of the miners at Westray. There were no laws to make
the people who caused those deaths accountable to their families.
May I say on a personal note that I am one of those family
members who have lost a relative in the mines. It is a sad state
of affairs when we have our family members killed in industrial
accidents, but may I say that what is more tragic in these deaths
at Westray, and as was with my uncle's, is that he was sealed as
some of the men at Westray were and will forever remain under the
Atlantic Ocean.
We have the opportunity to change all of that for miners'
families, and today can be the beginning of that process.
1415
I would like to once again return to recommendation 73 of the
Westray report. Mr. Justice Richard was very clear in his intent
when he wrote:
Recent events have shown that even in this House of Commons,
where we sit to represent our constituents, it is difficult to
achieve accountability and responsibility for one's actions. If
it is difficult here, we cannot just expect it from private
companies. We must use this motion as the first step to
legislating corporate responsibility so that we can prevent
further deaths and injuries so tragically revealed by the Westray
disaster, and we must do it now.
Mr. Brent St. Denis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Natural Resources, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have
the opportunity to speak to Motion No. 79. I commend the member
for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough for his comments as well as
the member for Bras d'Or—Cape Breton for her thoughtful remarks.
The motion states that we should amend federal statutes,
including the criminal code, to address the issues of
accountability and liability for safety in the workplace in
relation to recommendation 73 of the province of Nova Scotia's
public inquiry into the Westray disaster. There would not be
anyone in the House who would not share the member's concern for
the victims and for the families of the victims of those who were
so tragically affected by the Westray disaster.
The Westray disaster was a tragedy that captured the attention
of the whole nation. Although it happened some time ago, it
remains in our minds and underlines the need for all of us in
public office to be sensitive to the concerns of workers and to
the need to ensure safe and secure workplaces.
Workers are the backbone of our economy. Fatalities, injuries
and illnesses in the workplace cause them and their families to
suffer both in human terms as well as in economic terms. It is
estimated that on top of the terrific human cost the dollar cost
to our economy is as much as $10 million a year. These costs are
too high and we need to look at ways to bring them down.
This motion provides us with an opportunity to look at the
situation of workplace safety in Canada and to consider what
needs to be done by the federal government to provide safe and
healthy workplaces for Canadians. The motion before us proposes
that we need a new legislative approach to workplace safety.
Legislation is clearly one option, but so is education.
Having worked in factories and on a railway, I know how
important it is that workers be secure in their knowledge of what
are the best practices in the workplace as well as management.
There are many experts in the field of occupational health and
safety who feel that prevention through education and training is
every bit as important as intervention through legislation.
These people understand the value of promoting education and
training in order to reduce the incidence of illness and
accidents in the workplace.
A national day of mourning was held on April 28 last year and
will be held again this year. I am proud to say that in my town
of Elliot Lake, in my riding of Algoma—Manitoulin, we honour our
lost workers on this very special day each year.
We have asked Canadians to remember workers who were killed or
injured as a result of occupational accidents or illness. The
Canadian flag was flown at half-mast on Parliament Hill in memory
of those workers who lost their lives or who were injured on the
job.
Also each year organizations throughout North America co-operate
to hold North American Occupational Safety and Health Week. This
past year the North American Occupational Safety and Health Week
was held from May 17 to 23, and I expect it will be again this
year.
As part of this occasion the Government of Canada joins with the
governments of the United States and Mexico to promote awareness
of workplace safety throughout North America.
1420
In addition, Canadian organizations such as the Canadian Society
of Safety Engineering and the Canadian Centre for Occupational
Safety and Health are working in partnership with the federal
government and others in Canadian society to promote safe work
practices.
These organizations produce excellent material to help labour,
business, governments and others interested in occupational
health and safety to learn about working together to identify and
implement new approaches to promote workplace safety.
The educational information they produce is distributed broadly
to employers and employees, and the Canadian Centre for
Occupational Safety and Health has created a very useful website
that has gained an international reputation. It is important to
underline the importance of education as it relates to workplace
safety.
The labour program is very supportive of these activities.
Indeed, for the last several years the labour program has played
a leading role in emphasizing education and awareness as a means
of promoting better workplace safety.
Thus there is a wide variety of initiatives under way, under the
leadership of Canada's Minister of Labour, with the help of her
parliamentary secretary, the member for Whitby—Ajax, which
provide useful information to focus the attention of employers,
employees and the general public on the importance of preventing
injury and illness in the workplace through education and
awareness.
Although the motion does not talk about the use of information
to create safer work environments, it is important to keep in
mind that education and awareness are also important aspects of
our existing approach to promoting workplace safety.
The second part of the approach, of course, is legislative.
It was some 30 years ago that the federal government developed
the first occupational safety and health legislation to cover
employees and workplaces under federal jurisdiction. Over the
years federal legislation and regulations relating to
occupational safety and health have been consolidated under the
Canada Labour Code.
As we consider the motion, we need also to consider what is in
place under the Canada Labour Code, especially under part II of
the code, because it is part II of the code which governs
occupational safety and health for employees working in
organizations under federal jurisdiction.
The Canada Labour Code establishes three fundamental rights for
workers: first, the right to know about unsafe conditions;
second, the right to participate in workplace decisions relating
to safety; and third, the right to refuse dangerous work.
The code also includes a set of occupational safety and health
regulations that prescribes standards and procedures for both
employers and employees to follow.
Federal government inspectors visit workplaces, respond to
complaints, conduct investigations, prohibit access to workplaces
deemed hazardous and can impose fines for non-compliance. In
other words, with the Canada Labour Code we already have a model
in place to cover the enforcement of safety in the workplace.
The problem is that the Canada Labour Code covers only those
employees who are working in industries or organizations that are
subject to federal legislation. That is only a small part of the
working population of Canada. Therefore, while we have an
effective model in the Canada Labour Code, it does not cover the
whole population of workers, most of whom are under provincial or
territorial jurisdiction.
The difficulty with the idea of extending the federal model to
include workers outside the federal jurisdiction is that,
constitutionally, workplace safety is also a provincial concern.
Any moves at the federal level to encroach on provincial or
territorial legislative turf, so to speak, on workers' rights may
not be viewed positively by those other levels of government.
We have to find an approach that would accommodate
federal-provincial interests and would also combine the
educational and legislative approaches. This issue requires
further study by the Minister of Justice, as recommended by the
Westray inquiry report.
I would like to emphasize a point made by my colleague, the
Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice, that
corporate criminal liability is part of the larger goal of
improving workplace safety. Bill C-12, now before the House,
amends part II of the Canada Labour Code to reinforce the
obligations of employers and the rights of employees in respect
of safety in federally regulated workplaces.
Although the emphasis is on preventive measures, various
remedies, including penalties, are provided for in the labour
code for violations of standards. Bill C-12 deserves the early
attention of the House, while the government continues to examine
potential legislative amendments to address corporate criminal
liability.
1425
This motion, while extremely well intentioned, merely calls upon
the House to support the idea of amending the criminal code, but
does not specify what kind of amendment is needed. As such, the
motion does not advance significantly the study of the complex
issue of corporate criminal liability.
We on this side of the House support the idea of a study. I
believe that the member who proposed this motion, having done so
with the best of intentions, fails to recognize the important
jurisdiction the provinces have when it comes to workplace health
and safety. I encourage him to co-operate with the government.
I am sure that the outcome of a study would be the best possible
for workers from coast to coast. We know that federal workers
are well protected. We would hope that our provincial
counterparts will see the wisdom of participating in any kind of
study to make things better for workers across the country.
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
having heard the hon. member from the government say that it is
not interested in supporting this recommendation is
disappointing. It has thrown me off my remarks. I really
thought there would be broad interest and support for such a good
motion and for the type of language that was put together.
I can tell members that Canadians were absolutely horrified when
26 miners were killed at the Westray mine, but they were even
more horrified when they discovered that the crown prosecutor for
Nova Scotia had to stay the charges because, under the current
criminal code of Canada, in spite of overwhelming evidence of
gross negligence, he could not make those charges stick. That is
what Canadians were seriously horrified about.
That is what led to Judge Richard making recommendations in the
Westray report. Recommendation 73 specifically called for the
criminal code and other legislation to be amended to introduce
the concept of corporate manslaughter or corporate murder. Now
corporations can be charged with a violation of the Canada Labour
Code if workers' lives are put at risk through gross negligence,
but they cannot be charged with manslaughter or murder because
the current criminal code does not contemplate that. That is
what recommendation 73 called for. That is what the motion from
the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough calls for. That
is what the private member's bill introduced by our leader, the
member for Halifax, called for in a very specific way.
We would be able to criminally charge company owners, CEOs,
members of boards of directors of any enterprise who knowingly
risk workers' lives in the same way that we would be able to
charge someone with criminal negligence who drank a full bottle
of whiskey and then drove a car and killed somebody. That person
could be charged under the Motor Vehicles Act, but also under the
criminal code because a person's life was put at risk through
criminal negligence. The same should apply to workplaces.
Nobody should be injured, butchered or maimed on behalf of some
arbitrary production schedule. Canadians have matured far beyond
that point.
We still have startling statistics though. Three Canadian
workers a day are killed at work. One thousand Canadians a year
are killed on the job and hundreds of thousands of others suffer
lost time due to injuries.
We have looked at the moral and ethical reasons why we have to
stop this. Let us now look at the financial reasons.
Every year in my home province of Manitoba 50,000 person days
are lost due to strikes and lockouts, and the right wing of the
chamber of commerce screams bloody murder that unions are causing
a lack of productivity. In the same period of time, 500,000
person days are lost due to injuries, accidents, lost time,
sickness due to injury, et cetera. If we are serious about
productivity, if we are serious about workers or profits due to
productivity, the first place to clean up is the workplace.
There are all kinds of good reasons why this particular motion
should get unanimous support from the House. Under the guidance
of the motion we would go on to pass the private member's bill
dealing with Westray, get it into the criminal code and amend
part II of the Canada Labour Code. No one should be injured,
butchered or maimed on behalf of an arbitrary production schedule
in this country.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): When the motion next
comes before the House the member for Winnipeg Centre will have
six minutes for debate.
[Translation]
The time provided for the consideration of Private Members'
Business has now expired and the order is dropped to the bottom
of the order of precedence on the order paper.
[English]
It being 2.30 p.m., this House stands adjourned until Monday
next at 11 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 2.30 p.m.)