36th Parliament, 2nd Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 72
CONTENTS
Monday, March 27, 2000
1100
| POINTS OF ORDER
|
| Canadian Alliance
|
| Mr. Chuck Strahl |
| The Speaker |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
1105
| THE BUDGET
|
| Financial Statement of the Minister of Finance
|
| Budget Motion
|
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
1110
1115
| Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien |
1120
| Mr. Rick Limoges |
1125
1130
| Mr. Roy Bailey |
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
1135
| Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
1140
1145
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
1150
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
| Mr. Art Hanger |
1155
1200
| Mr. Alex Shepherd |
1205
| Mr. Werner Schmidt |
| Mr. Joe Jordan |
1210
1215
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
1220
| Mr. Mac Harb |
1225
1230
| POINTS OF ORDER
|
| Canadian Alliance
|
| Mr. John Bryden |
| THE BUDGET
|
| Financial Statement of the Minister of Finance
|
| Motion
|
| Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien |
1235
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
1240
1245
1250
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
1255
| Mrs. Pauline Picard |
1300
1305
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
1310
| Ms. Marlene Catterall |
1315
1320
| Mr. Roy Bailey |
1325
| Mr. John Herron |
| Mr. Murray Calder |
1330
1335
| Mr. Rick Borotsik |
| Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien |
1340
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
| Mr. Pat Martin |
1345
1350
| Ms. Marlene Catterall |
1355
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| TOBACCO INDUSTRY
|
| Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
| LEADER OF THE OFFICIAL OPPOSITION
|
| Miss Deborah Grey |
1400
| GAS PRICES
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| BLOOD DONOR MONTH
|
| Mr. Mac Harb |
| NUNAVIK INUIT
|
| Mr. Guy St-Julien |
| THE LATE HAMED NASTOH
|
| Mr. Chuck Cadman |
| CANADIAN FILM INDUSTRY
|
| Mr. Bernard Patry |
| DRAMA AWARDS
|
| Mr. John Finlay |
1405
| WORLD THEATRE DAY
|
| Mr. Pierre de Savoye |
| CANADIAN ALLIANCE
|
| Mr. Werner Schmidt |
| ARTS AND CULTURE
|
| Ms. Raymonde Folco |
| HEPATITIS C
|
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
1410
| WORLD TUBERCULOSIS DAY
|
| Ms. Jean Augustine |
| HEPATITIS C
|
| Ms. Diane St-Jacques |
| CANADIAN AID FOR CHERNOBYL
|
| Mr. Joe Jordan |
| QUIET REVOLUTION
|
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
| HEPATITIS C
|
| Ms. Libby Davies |
| HEROISM
|
| Mr. Art Hanger |
1415
| HEALTH CARE
|
| Mr. Norman Doyle |
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
| ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AGENCY
|
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
1420
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Chuck Strahl |
| Hon. Martin Cauchon |
| Mr. Chuck Strahl |
| Hon. Martin Cauchon |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Ms. Bonnie Brown |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
1425
| Ms. Bonnie Brown |
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
| Ms. Bonnie Brown |
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
| Ms. Bonnie Brown |
| HEALTH
|
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
1430
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Ms. Bonnie Brown |
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Ms. Bonnie Brown |
| ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AGENCY
|
| Mr. Charlie Penson |
| Hon. Martin Cauchon |
| Mr. Charlie Penson |
1435
| Hon. Martin Cauchon |
| BILLBOARDS
|
| Hon. David M. Collenette |
| Hon. David M. Collenette |
| ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AGENCY
|
| Mr. Jay Hill |
| Hon. Martin Cauchon |
| Mr. Jay Hill |
| Hon. Martin Cauchon |
1440
| GASOLINE PRICING
|
| Mr. Pierre Brien |
| Hon. John Manley |
| Mr. Pierre Brien |
| Hon. John Manley |
| ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AGENCY
|
| Ms. Val Meredith |
| Hon. Martin Cauchon |
| Ms. Val Meredith |
| Hon. John Manley |
1445
| AÉROPORTS DE MONTRÉAL
|
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
| Hon. David M. Collenette |
| TORONTO WATERFRONT
|
| Ms. Carolyn Bennett |
| Hon. David M. Collenette |
| ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AGENCY
|
| Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
| Hon. Martin Cauchon |
| Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
| Hon. Martin Cauchon |
1450
| PUBLIC WORKS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES
|
| Mr. Pat Martin |
| Hon. Alfonso Gagliano |
| Mr. Pat Martin |
| Hon. Alfonso Gagliano |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Ms. Bonnie Brown |
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
1455
| Hon. George S. Baker |
| NATIONAL DEFENCE
|
| Mr. John Richardson |
| Mr. Robert Bertrand |
| ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AGENCY
|
| Mr. Philip Mayfield |
| Hon. Martin Cauchon |
| SHIPBUILDING
|
| Mr. Antoine Dubé |
| Hon. John Manley |
| HEPATITIS C
|
| Ms. Bev Desjarlais |
1500
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| THE ENVIRONMENT
|
| Mr. John Herron |
| Ms. Paddy Torsney |
| POINTS OF ORDER
|
| Canadian Alliance—Speaker's Ruling
|
| The Speaker |
1505
| PRIVILEGE
|
| Bill C-206
|
| Mr. John Bryden |
1510
1515
| Mr. Jay Hill |
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
| GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| CRIMINAL CODE
|
| Bill C-462. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. John Herron |
1520
| PETITIONS
|
| Breast Cancer
|
| Mr. Walt Lastewka |
| Child Pornography
|
| Mr. John Cummins |
| Immigration
|
| Mr. John Cummins |
| Genetically Altered Foods
|
| Ms. Aileen Carroll |
| Child Poverty
|
| Ms. Aileen Carroll |
| Mining
|
| Mr. Pat Martin |
| Child Pornography
|
| Mr. Lou Sekora |
1525
| Canada Post Corporation
|
| Mr. Lou Sekora |
| Equality
|
| Mr. Peter Goldring |
| Breast Cancer
|
| Mr. John O'Reilly |
| The Constitution
|
| Ms. Bev Desjarlais |
| Child Poverty
|
| Mr. Paul DeVillers |
| Ms. Marlene Catterall |
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
| Mr. John Cummins |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| THE BUDGET
|
| Budget motion
|
| Ms. Libby Davies |
1530
1535
1540
| Mr. Peter Adams |
1545
| Hon. Ethel Blondin-Andrew |
1550
1555
| Mr. Werner Schmidt |
1600
| Ms. Bev Desjarlais |
| Hon. Andy Mitchell |
1605
1610
| Mr. Roy Bailey |
1615
| Mr. Mark Muise |
| Mr. John Herron |
1620
1625
| Mr. Ken Epp |
1630
| Mr. Mark Muise |
1635
1640
| Mr. John Bryden |
1645
1650
| Mr. Garry Breitkreuz |
1655
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
| Mr. Julian Reed |
1700
1705
1710
| Ms. Bev Desjarlais |
| Mr. Garry Breitkreuz |
| Mr. Ken Epp |
1715
| Mr. Werner Schmidt |
1720
1725
| Mr. John Herron |
| Mr. Peter Adams |
1730
| Mr. Howard Hilstrom |
1735
1740
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
| Mr. Roy Bailey |
1745
| Mr. Steve Mahoney |
1750
1755
| Mr. John Herron |
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
1800
| Mr. John Godfrey |
1805
1810
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
| Mr. John Herron |
1815
1845
(Division 1220)
| Amendment negatived
|
| CANADIAN INSTITUTES OF HEALTH RESEARCH ACT
|
| Bill C-13. Report stage
|
1850
(Division 1221)
| Motion No. 1 negatived
|
1855
(Division 1222)
| Motion No. 9 negatived
|
(Division 1223)
| Motion No. 12 negatived
|
(Division 1224)
| Motion No. 13 negatived
|
(Division 1225)
| Motion No. 14 negatived
|
(Division 1226)
| Motion No. 20 negatived
|
(Division 1238)
| Motion No. 35 negatived
|
(Division 1239)
| Motion No. 46 negatived
|
(Division 1241)
| Motion No. 15 negatived
|
(Division 1227)
| Motion No. 21 negatived
|
(Division 1228)
| Motion No. 48 negatived
|
(Division 1229)
| Motion No. 49 negatived
|
(Division 1230)
| Motion No. 50 negatived
|
(Division 1243)
| Motion No. 19 negatived
|
(Division 1250)
| Motion No. 51 negatived
|
1900
(Division 1231)
| Motion No. 2 negatived
|
(Division 1232)
| Motion No. 3 negatived
|
(Division 1240)
| Motion No. 10 negatived
|
(Division 1244)
| Motion No. 22 negatived
|
(Division 1245)
| Motion No. 25 negatived
|
(Division 1248)
| Motion No. 41 negatived
|
1905
(Division 1233)
| Motion No. 4 agreed to
|
(Division 1242)
| Motion No. 16 agreed to
|
(Division 1234)
| Motion No. 8 negatived
|
(Division 1251)
| Motion No. 52 negatived
|
1910
(Division 1235)
| Motion No. 26 negatived
|
(Division 1236)
| Motion No. 28 negatived
|
(Division 1237)
| Motion No. 33 negatived
|
1915
(Division 1246)
| Motion No. 29 negatived
|
(Division 1247)
(Division 1252)
| Motions Nos. 36 and 55 negatived
|
(Division 1249)
| Motion No. 42 negatived
|
| Motion for concurrence
|
| Hon. Allan Rock |
(Division 1253)
| Motion agreed to
|
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 72
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Monday, March 27, 2000
The House met at 11 a.m.
Prayers
1100
[English]
POINTS OF ORDER
CANADIAN ALLIANCE
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, this
is a very historic day for the Canadian people, for the House of
Commons and for members of parliament. I would like to read into
the record a letter addressed to the Hon. Gilbert Parent,
effective immediately, from the Leader of the Official
Opposition, dated March 27, 2000. It reads as follows:
This is to advise that effective immediately all Reform members
of parliament should be recognized as members of the Canadian
Alliance in accordance with the results of the referendum
conducted among Reform Party members and announced on March 25,
2000, whereby the Reform Party of Canada has officially adopted
the new Constitution and Policy Declaration of the Alliance.
Please also be advised that Deborah Grey will serve as Leader of
the Official Opposition (interim) until such time as the leader
of the Canadian Alliance is chosen by its members. This vote is
expected to be concluded by June 24, 2000, or by July 8, 2000.
Mr. Chuck Strahl will serve as House leader for the Canadian
Alliance members, Mr. Jay Hill as whip, Mr. Dave Chatters as
deputy whip and Ms. Val Meredith as Canadian Alliance caucus
chair.
Your sincerely,
Preston Manning, M.P.
The Speaker: Do you wish to table the document?
Mr. Chuck Strahl: Yes, Mr. Speaker.
The Speaker: Of course, I congratulate the new Leader
of the Opposition on her appointment to this very high post. We
will follow the wishes as set forth in this letter. Henceforth,
pursuant to the request of the former leader of the Reform Party,
we will call the new party the Canadian Alliance. That is how it
will be referred to in the House.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
1105
[English]
THE BUDGET
FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
The House resumed from February 29 consideration of the motion
that this House approves in general the budgetary policy of the
government, and of the amendment.
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
it is a great honour to rise in the House to speak to the budget
and what it means not only for the provinces and territories but
for Canadians wherever they live in this great land of ours.
When we first dealt with the whole issue of the deficit, it was
a huge problem in terms of what it meant for Canadians. We knew
that over time great sacrifices would have to be made. Finally
we are in the position where we have a surplus. As a result of
that, we can start to fulfil the very important promises which we
made concerning what to do with the surplus money.
I am pleased to be part of a government which recognizes that
there needs to be reinvestment in things like education and,
especially, health care. Health care is one of those underlying
core Canadian values upon which Canadians generally expect us to
act, and to do so in a meaningful way.
As chairman of the all-party Standing Committee on Health it is
very gratifying to see the kind of reinvestment that is being
made in this all important area.
Recently I had the opportunity to speak to a number of
researchers, specifically on Bill C-13, which would establish the
Canadian institutes of health research. It is important for them
to know that the Government of Canada is there for them in terms
of money. Dollars to researchers all across Canada will double
over the next number of years. We hope to find cures for cancer,
heart disease and other diseases.
In the budget we saw that Génome Canada was given enormous
amounts of money to get up and running. It is involved in an
important health area as well and is something which all
Canadians applaud.
We invested in this budget $2.5 billion in health care, on top
of the $11.5 billion that was invested in last year's budget.
That underscores the commitment of the Government of Canada in
this all important area, which is consistent with the values of
Canadians. We know that there is still a way to go. We
understand that, which is why the ministers will be meeting. The
federal health minister, along with his territorial and
provincial counterparts, will meet in May. The deputy ministers
are meeting as we speak. Early on, as quickly as possible, they
will try to carve out the kind of health care system that will
take us into the 21st century.
The areas that will be looked at are primary health care, as
well as community and home care, and the whole issue of
accountability and making sure that Canadians get what they want
in their health care system.
Those three topics will be dealt with, and hopefully dealt with
effectively, knowing that it is what Canadians need and want. We
certainly want to act in that appropriate way.
I spoke about the promises which we as a government had made. We
know full well that in addition to the reinvestment that we are
making in a number of areas we also had to cut taxes. That was
very important. We were on the leading edge when it came to the
reduction of taxes, unlike members of the Reform Party, who
talked about balancing books and trying to get the deficit
reduced two years from now. We were far ahead of them.
More to the point, we were ahead of them with tax cuts as well.
I think that speaks volumes about who we are as a government,
what we do and how we do it. It underscores the commitment on
this side of the House to give Canadians, especially lower and
middle income Canadians, the kind of tax relief that is
important, not only for themselves, but for their families as
well.
1110
My constituents in Waterloo—Wellington, as well as constituents
across Ontario and elsewhere in Canada want to see us move on the
national debt. I am pleased to note that we have done that and
will continue to do that.
The finance minister was very clear. He said that it is
important to move on all these fronts and that there be tax
relief in a staged fashion. He indicated that it would be a plan
over five years. I think that speaks volumes to our commitment
as a government, our commitment as Liberals, to act in an
appropriate and timely way, knowing that it is the right thing to
do. Canadians not only expect it and need it, but actually
deserve it because of the sacrifices they have made over the last
little while.
The tax cuts, coupled with debt reduction over time, coupled
with reinvestment in all important areas, are simply good news
for Canada. We can see the economy responding as a result. When
was the last time we saw the economy soar to the extent it has
over the last little while under our administration?
We have seen over time the great benefits that have taken place
as a result of good fiscal and monetary management that we on the
government side have been able to do. I am very proud to be part
of a government that is in tune with Canadians and sees the kinds
of things that need to be done, done well and done effectively.
We can and do run an effective administration, and that shows.
We do it in a way that is consistent with the values of
Canadians. We do it in a way that makes economic, social and
political sense. I am proud to be part of a government that is
able to do that.
I want to indicate that I will be splitting my time. This is an
important topic and other members want the ability to speak to
it.
Let us go back to the time of the Conservatives for a minute.
We inherited a huge deficit from the Mulroney administration. It
really was a terrible thing, a great millstone that hung around
the necks of all Canadians. Over time we whittled that away and
took care of it in a very good way that really did not create
havoc and upheaval. In a consistent, incremental and solid way
we were able to take it down to zero and do so with minimal
disruption.
It is interesting to note that in that sense we were able to do
the right thing. It is important that we do that.
It is interesting to see the Conservatives these days and the
kinds of things they are doing. I point only to the clarity bill
as an example, Bill C-20, and the inability of the Conservatives
and Mr. Clark to stand for Canada. I find it most distressing
and I find it very shameful.
Again I want to come back and hook into health care. I find it
equally and even more distressing that Mr. Clark, out of step
with Canadians, has decided to support Mr. Klein's Bill 11 in
Alberta. I find that outrageous and out of touch, but it is part
and parcel of the Tories and their ability, it seems, to trip at
every misstep. That is most upsetting.
I also note that the NDP is often on interesting ground when it
comes to a number of the issues, but when it comes to health
care, when it comes to employment and other major issues, the NDP
always wants to throw money at them. That is just simply
unacceptable. Canadians see through that. They find it
unacceptable. The NDP always wants to throw money.
When it comes to the Bloc, after Bill C-20 I really have to
wonder who and what it represents. It really is quite outrageous
that its members are so out of step with their constituents and
Quebecers in that wonderful province.
1115
It is interesting to note that the Reform Party has transformed
itself into a new alliance. We witnessed the members not so long
ago in the House taking, I suppose, a modicum of pride in what
they have done, trying to reinvent themselves and come out in a
new metamorphosis.
My position is that a dinosaur that does Tae-Kwondo, a dinosaur
that tries to be hip is still nothing but a dinosaur. It is
important to note that those people opposite who want to rip
Canada apart, who want to pit region against region every time
they can and pit people against people, they stand for the flat
tax.
Since we are talking about the budget today let us talk about
the flat tax. Let us talk about what those Reformers stand for.
Even their right wing NRA friends, Charlton Heston, and their
televangalist friends in the United States, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim
Bakker and Tammy Faye and all the other ones of that ilk, reject
the flat tax. They say it is rubbish. Still those dinosaurs
caterwaul away about how important it is to have a flat tax.
Canadians do not buy into that nonsense. Canadians reject it
because Canadians see through whatever they call themselves. They
know that the Reform Party switched into an alliance is still
nothing but a Reform Party; the politics of hatred, of extremism,
of division, of everything that most Canadians do not want to be
a part of. That is what the Reform Party represents.
I was reading today a little about our friend Stockwell Day.
Does he ever some interesting baggage that needs to see the light
of day. We need to turn over the rock and take a look.
[Translation]
Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien (Frontenac—Mégantic, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I
have listened with great interest to my colleague, the hon.
member for Waterloo—Wellington, who was of course boasting about
the seventh budget of this government and of the same Minister
of Finance.
As is his wont, he took advantage of the opportunity to tear a
strip off all parties in this House. Of course his own party
was spared, a party in which there is infighting going on at the
present time.
We no longer know who is governing this government, if it is the
Minister of Finance, if it is the clan of the Minister of
Finance, if it is the Prime Minister and his backroom boys, but
the result has been that the seventh budget of the Minister of
Finance has totally forgotten this country's farmers.
It is not surprising that one of them has been forced to travel
thousands of kilometres to get to Parliament Hill. He made use
of the means available to him to raise this government's
awareness and to meet with the Prime Minister in order to
establish a relationship of financial assistance, after that
same government shamelessly slashed assistance to farmers. Now
they are turning on the tap a bit for the health of this
country's agriculture.
Another thing that displeased me in this budget is that there is
nothing for people who have seasonal work or to lose their jobs.
As we are well aware, close to 60% of them pay into the
employment insurance fund, but when they are forced to apply for
benefits, there is always one way or another to tell them
“Unfortunately, you are not eligible”. There is always an hour
or two missing, or they are penalized for some past action. The
only help there is for these workers is that contributions will
drop by 15 cents per $100 in income, for the next four years.
This is a trifle.
What we are calling for is for access to employment insurance to
be made more humane. When workers are in a black hole, for
three weeks, sometimes three months, they find it very
difficult.
1120
I think that the member for Waterloo-Wellington does not know
what it means for a couple not to have any money coming in for
three weeks, for two or three months. This was something he
glossed right over.
I happen to know very well that at the same time that workers'
benefits were being cut, HRDC was handing out $500,000 to the
big company making billions in Cornwall. The CEO told us “We
applied. We were sure we would not get it. They handed it to
us and we took it of course”.
Placeteco received $1.2 million to create jobs. Three
disappeared, none were created, and Placeteco was saved from
certain bankruptcy, and we know perfectly well that some friends
had a hand in it.
In the riding—
The Deputy Speaker: I am sorry to have to interrupt the hon.
member. Only five minutes are allowed for questions and
comments and the hon. member has used almost all of it. The
hon. member for Waterloo—Wellington must be allowed to reply. He
has one minute to reply.
[English]
Mr. Lynn Myers: Mr. Speaker, I think it would take a
little more than one minute to respond to the hon. member
opposite. The fact that he took so long to go on his little
diatribe underscores the frustration of the Bloc members in the
House. They do not know what to do any more. They do not know
what they stand for any more.
The hon. member mentioned that we on this side of the House were
in so-called disarray. I do not need to be lectured by the Bloc
when it comes to those matters, because we stand as a team. We
stand united behind our Prime Minister and behind the team in
terms of where we go and what we do. We do it in a consistent
manner, which Canadians expect from the governing party, the
party that governs our great country. We always do it in a
manner that is important and underscores our commitment to
Canadian values.
The hon. member talks about disarray. He should get Mr.
Parizeau and Mr. Bouchard together. He should make sure that his
ideological friends, who seem to be fraying at every side of the
issue when it comes to things like sovereignty and other things
in Quebec, get their act together. I will repeat that I need no
lecture from him when it comes to those kinds of things.
Mr. Art Hanger: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I rise in direct reference to the comments made by the member for
Waterloo—Wellington.
I take exception, as a member of the Canadian Alliance, to his
comments that the Canadian Alliance, our new party, formerly the
Reform Party, preaches the politics of hatred. I know that
other opposition members here in the House would also find that
very unparliamentary. In fact, I say shame on that member and
his party.
I believe a retraction is due. I appeal to the Chair for that
very course of action.
Mr. Lynn Myers: The hon. member is against everything. He
is anti-feminist, anti-immigrant—
Mr. Roy Bailey: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I too rise in objection to the member opposite referring to this
party, the Canadian Alliance Party, as being some kind of a
religious bunch of nuts and yahoos. I suggest that the hon.
member retract those remarks or apologize to the House.
The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The Chair heard the
comments. I am not sure that anything that was said was
unparliamentary, but I certainly feel it is appropriate for hon.
members to have due regard for the words they use in the House
and use language that is entirely fitting with our practice.
I am not sure that the hon. member completely crossed the line.
They are not necessarily words that all members would use. I
hope we do not continue in this vein. I hope we can move on and
perhaps raise our sights a little.
Mr. Rick Limoges (Windsor—St. Clair, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
after watching the Minister of Finance previously deliver six
innovative budgets from outside the Chamber, it is an honour for
me to stand here today to speak in favour of his seventh budget
and to participate in the budget debate.
1125
When I decided to speak in support of this budget, I thought
back to a time when federal budgets focused on deficits and a
ballooning national debt while Canadians had to deal with deep
spending cuts; a time when the tax burden on Canadians,
particularly low and middle income Canadians, was increasing at
an alarming rate; a time when the national unemployment rate was
over 11%; a time when Canadians were worried about their future
and the prospects for their children.
Today we have a federal budget that is able to address very
different issues. Under the leadership of the Prime Minister and
the Minister of Finance, we have a budget today that allows the
government to build on the foundation secured by the many
sacrifices made by Canadians in Windsor—St. Clair and across
Canada.
This budget, the first of the new millennium, takes decisive
action to take advantage of Canada's better finances to improve
our lives. The balanced approach of this budget works to return
hard earned income to Canadians, improve the quality of life for
Canadians, prepare the Canadian economy for the new millennium
and make our workplaces more productive and competitive.
The balanced approach of this budget addresses several areas of
concern and challenges facing this country. Since I only have a
few minutes I cannot highlight the entire budget but one area
which I would like to discuss today is that of tax relief.
Tax relief is a very important issue in my riding of
Windsor—St. Clair. Since my election last April, many of my
constituents have told me that tax relief is important in order
to improve their quality of life. This budget goes a long way to
address this concern by approaching tax relief in a fair and
balanced manner.
Budget 2000 introduces a plan that will reduce taxes by at least
$58 billion over the next five years. On an annual basis, it
will reduce personal income taxes by an average of 15% by
2004-05. This five year tax reduction plan delivers immediate
and growing tax relief to my constituents in Windsor—St. Clair
and to all Canadians. This is very much the case for middle and
low income Canadians, as well as families with children.
Low and middle income Canadians will see their net personal
income tax reduced by an average of 18% annually, perhaps even
more if our economic circumstances permit. Families raising
children will enjoy an average reduction in their net personal
income tax of 21% annually because of the added assistance
provided through the enrichment of the Canada child tax benefit.
The combination of tax relief measures and the government's last
three budgets and the five year plan will reduce the federal
portion of personal income tax for all Canadians by an average of
22% annually by 2004, even more for families raising children.
As a key element of the tax reduction plan, the budget
immediately restores full inflation indexation of the personal
income tax system. This will stop the hidden tax increases known
as bracket creep. This means that the real value of federal
benefits, such as the Canada child tax benefit, the CCTB, and the
GST credit, will no longer be eroded by inflation, thus
protecting the integrity of these programs which were designed to
help low and middle income families, especially those who are
struggling to raise children.
In short, the government is providing meaningful and permanent
tax relief for Canadians, relief that is sustainable because it
is built on a solid foundation of fiscal responsibility and not
borrowed from future generations through deficit financing as we
have seen with some provincial governments in this country.
In another key measure, the middle income tax rate applied to
income between $29,590 and $59,180 will be cut. Effective July 1
this rate will be reduced to 24% from the current 26%. This
middle rate will be cut another full point to 23% by 2004 or
sooner, if possible. Under this plan Canadians in Windsor—St.
Clair and across the country will earn more tax free income and
more of their income will be taxed at lower rates. The plan also
enriches the CCTB so that by 2004-05 an additional $2.5 billion
annually will be provided to low and middle income families in my
riding of Windsor—St. Clair and across Canada.
As a result of these and other measures, a typical one income
family of four earning $40,000 will have its net federal personal
income taxes reduced by $1,623 a year by 2004, a reduction of
48%.
A typical two income family of four earning $60,000 will have its
net federal portion of personal income taxes reduced by $1,546 a
year by 2004, a reduction of 27%.
1130
The government's commitment to tax relief goes beyond tax
reductions to individuals and families. The budget 2000 tax plan
also helps Canada to become more competitive internationally by
encouraging investment and innovation. Measures include reducing
corporate tax rates by 7% for businesses in the highest tax
sectors to the lasting benefit of our economy in Windsor—St.
Clair and all of Canada.
Capital gains taxes which tend to freeze up vast amounts of
capital are being reduced as well. Now only two-thirds of these
gains are taxable instead of the previous three-quarters.
Opportunity for our young innovators will be found in Canada now
that our tax system will promote creative wage and benefit
packages, including incentives such as share options.
Today Canada enjoys a new economic reality. The federal deficit
is history. The national debt burden is in decline. Canada's
unemployment rate is at its lowest level in more than 20 years.
The disposable income of Canadians in Windsor—St. Clair and
across Canada is on the rise.
The balanced approach of budget 2000 continues to build on
Canada's fiscal and economic success. The government has clearly
recognized that tax relief is an important part of a balanced
approach to dealing with the problems of success that we are
thankfully facing today and into the future.
The government is committed to taking these better finances and
transforming them into better lives for all Canadians. Budget
2000 delivers just that. Budget 2000 is good for Windsor—St.
Clair and it is good for Canada. I ask all hon. members of the
House to give their full support because it is the right thing to
do.
Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris—Moose Mountain, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I would like to respond to the member
and put forth a particular situation that was drawn to my
attention this morning. There is a number of ongoing sales
because of the economy in western Canada. When there is an
auction sale the auctioneer comes, takes a list and so on. He
publishes that list.
This case is a typical example of another widow who is having an
auction sale. Among the goods listed are some firearms. The
auctioneer, being a professional and one who used to belong to
the provincial organization, did everything right until sales day
and he was stopped from selling the widow's guns. Because of
this government and the senseless legislation that is supported
in only two provinces, we send another widow away with a loss of
$8,000. The government is totally to blame for that happening.
Would the hon. member like to comment on that?
Mr. Rick Limoges: Mr. Speaker, I would be very pleased to
respond to that question. One does not have to look too far into
the headlines today in North America, both in Canada and the
United States, to know that gun control is a very important
issue. It is an important issue of safety for all Canadians. I
make absolutely no apologies. No one in the House should take
the position that gun ownership is something that we ought to be
promoting in the way in which that party promotes it.
Certainly people have a right to own guns for certain purposes,
hunters, for example, and so on. However we have more than a
right; we have a responsibility. When we are talking about
responsible gun ownership, no responsible gun owner can possibly
complain about the fact that we want to put controls on these
very deadly, dangerous weapons to ensure that they do not get
into the wrong hands and to ensure that we know where they are
and we can protect not only the children in schools but people on
the streets and in their homes. I make no apology.
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Mr. Speaker, as I listened to two backbench
Liberals speak about the budget, I was quite amused by the fact
that they accuse our party, the NDP, of just throwing money at
health care. In actuality, with this recent budget, for every
dollar in tax cuts the government gave two cents for health.
The Liberal government has lost the moral authority to even talk
about health care in the country when the Prime Minister goes to
Alberta and literally kowtows to Mr. Ralph Klein in terms of bill
11 and the privatization of health care, the most valued and
cherished program in the country.
1135
We know the Liberals do not understand the concerns about health
care. Another thing they do not understand is the shipbuilding
policy on the east coast and elsewhere in the country. There was
not a single word in the budget on shipbuilding.
This industry employs thousands of people not only in Atlantic
Canada but in Quebec, Ontario and British Columbia. They sit
there and completely ignored the industry, the workers and
employers such as the CAW and the Irving Company when they came
together with a shipbuilding policy. We are one of the few
nations in the world without a comprehensive policy.
Tomorrow there will be debate at third reading on a bill
proposed by one of the Bloc members. Will this member be
supporting that initiative and will the government be supporting
a shipbuilding policy in the country?
Mr. Rick Limoges: Mr. Speaker, I am very glad that the
member from the NDP has brought up health care funding once
again. Indeed the figures speak for themselves. This is the
fourth consecutive increase in Canada health and social transfers
by the government. We are now surpassing the levels of the
pre-cutback years.
When the government took office in 1993-94 a total of $37.429
billion were going to the provinces in Canada health and social
transfers. This year it will be $39.399 billion or over $2
billion more. The $2.5 billion we have added to this year's
budget will help the provinces.
As the Minister of Health said it will take more than money. It
will take innovative solutions from every province. It will take
health care ministers from across Canada getting together to come
up with ways in which we can better fund and deal with the health
care crisis we are currently facing and the provinces are trying
to manage their way out of.
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, today I rise to speak as a member of the Canadian
Alliance. As a matter of fact this is the first speech by a
member of the Canadian Alliance. It is an historical moment. I
am extremely proud to be part of this history. Yes, yes, yes.
What happened on Saturday night in Calgary? Canadians from
coast to coast, fed up with Liberal arrogance and disregard for
the wishes of the Canadians, spoke with a tremendous roar. They
created a new political force that will send these Liberals
packing into the Canadian wilderness. A total of 91.5% of
Reformers said yes to a broader coalition. What a mandate.
Today I stand proud to be the first member of the Canadian
Alliance to speak. Let me say what happened in referendum 2000.
For the record, 94.5% of Albertans said yes to this broader
coalition; 93.1% said yes—
Mr. Paul Szabo: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I appreciate what went on on the weekend but the matter before
the House is the budget debate. I would suggest that we keep the
comments relevant.
The Deputy Speaker: I know the hon. member for Calgary
East is working into the budget very quickly.
Mr. Deepak Obhrai: You are absolutely right, Mr. Speaker.
It is coming. In Manitoba 80.9% of the people said yes. In New
Brunswick 96.2% said yes to the alliance. In Newfoundland 94%
said yes to the Canadian Alliance. In Ontario 91% said yes to
the alliance. In Prince Edward Island 92.2% said yes. In Quebec
91% said yes. In Saskatchewan 82.8% said yes. In the
territories 80.8% said yes. In total 91.9% said yes to the
Canadian Alliance, so beware.
1140
What is in the future for Canadians? Today is the budget debate
so let us talk about the budget. The budget the Liberals brought
forth is an election budget, an election budget in which they
want to again spend, spend, spend. They want to buy the votes of
Canadians with their own money as they have been doing in the
past. It is a shame.
The budget ignored the pleas of Canadians for tax relief, for
reducing the deficit and for fixing health care. Let us deal
quickly with the tax cuts proposed in the budget. Let us see
what my constituents are saying.
I recently talked with a young man living in my constituency who
has a wife and two children. He earned $17,000 last year and
paid $2,000 in taxes. Upon completing his tax return his refund
came to $97 and his wife's, $150. His question to me was: “How
does this government expect a family of four to live on this kind
of an income?”
Yesterday I got a call from a senior in my riding. She is
working part time. She is 67 years old. She said “I am working
part time so that I can go out and earn a little income and be
busy”. Why is she paying $24 in EI when she is 67 years old and
has no intention of collecting EI? That was her question to me.
This is how the government indirectly taxes Canadians.
My son is 15 years old. His friend went out to work in the
evenings. He is a young fellow, 15 years old, working out there.
His first paycheque was $300 minus $87 in taxes. He told my son
“Tell your dad what is going on here”. I said “Excuse me. It
is the party on the other side that is not in touch with
Canadians on taxes”.
Out there on the streets of Canada there is a demand for the
government to address the issue of high taxation. What do we get
from the budget? A band-aid solution. It is designed to win
votes. The Reform Party brought this out and it scared them into
bringing forth some tax relief. Otherwise there would have been
no tax relief. I am skeptical and apprehensive that the next
budget brought forth by the government will be spend, spend,
spend.
Mr. Werner Schmidt: They won't get another chance.
Mr. Deepak Obhrai: Hopefully the election is next year.
Then we will see more spend, spend, spend to buy Canadian votes
to try to win the election.
My colleague from Calgary—Nose Hill last week presented a
motion in the House to deal with the crisis in health care. Even
Liberal pollsters said that health care was the number one
problem in the country that needed to be fixed. What did they do
in the budget? There was a mere $2.5 billion after the major
cuts had taken place over four years since 1993.
Yet the budget increased, it is amazing, by $1.5 billion grants
and contributions, not to health care. The HRDC fiasco has shown
what is happening to the grants. Grants and contributions are
nothing but patronage, trying to buy votes and helping out their
Liberal friends.
The same applies to EDC. The minister has been using
confidentiality not to answer questions about loans. Where is
the accountability of EDC to parliament? There is none. As a
matter of fact today in the Globe and Mail it is stated
quite clearly that there was influence by the government on the
EDC's final report from the Gowling team. The government is
using its grants and contributions to help its friends, not
ordinary Canadians. What terrible mismanagement.
1145
The two main things the Canadian Alliance offers are tax relief
and to fix the health care system.
Let us look at our solution for tax. Our solution 17 is a flat
tax rate that will take the government off the backs of
taxpayers. Solution 17 will reduce the top federal-provincial
tax level to roughly 29% over five years eventually freeing 1.9
million Canadians from paying taxes. Solution 17 says there will
be a flat rate tax of 17%. The exemptions still remain and will
rise to $10,000 per person. Those earning $20,000 or $30,000 who
have a family of one and $40,000 for a family of four will not
pay any taxes contrary to what people, even with small children,
now pay of what they are earning.
We are talking of federal tax. My colleague over there was
taking much credit for bringing unemployment down among other
things. Let me tell him that it was on the backs of the
provincial governments.
In closing, I say to Canadians do not be fooled by the Liberal
budgets; they are designed to win your votes. At election time
clearly say no to old style politics. I tell the Liberals this
is the 21st century. It is time for change. Welcome to the
Canadian Alliance.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the member gave an example of a family of four making $17,000
that he alleges paid some $2,000 in tax. For a family of four
with only $17,000 of income in one person's hands, when we take
the basic personal amount plus the spousal amount, that is
$13,000 sheltered already. That leaves $4,000. On $4,000 the
combined federal and provincial income tax is only $1,000. That
same family gets about $4,000 of child tax benefits and GST
credits which means that on a net basis the family making $17,000
actually receives over $3,000 in its pocket and pays no tax. I
believe the member should check his numbers. Maybe he would like
to table the numbers in the House.
He also made a statement about a family making $40,000 and that
under the new flat tax because there are four people and there is
an exemption of $10,000, it pays no tax. There is no exemption
for children. It is for the spouses so there certainly would be
tax.
He started off his speech by saying the government should have
had a budget that would reduce the deficit. If the member looks
carefully at the books, he will see that we have not had a
deficit for four years.
Would the member like to clarify for the House why he is giving
numbers which are absolutely wrong?
Mr. Deepak Obhrai: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member
for the question because it gives me an opportunity to tell him
how wrong his accounting is.
Let us talk about that family. He said, and I repeat his words,
that under $17,000 the family will be charged $1,000 but will get
a GST credit.
I want to tell him that over and above the $1,000 he is talking
about, that family pays GST when making purchases. If they get a
credit back, it is over and above the $1,000 that they are paid.
1150
Let us go back to the GST issue the member was talking about.
We can see how he is twisting numbers. It goes to show how the
numbers are twisted by the government.
As for his question about the $40,000 and what is going to be
paid and no exemption, I am talking about our proposal, not what
is there right now.
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am sure all of Canada is very
proud of the member. I congratulate his party for what it is
achieving for what it believes is its view of politics in Canada,
although I disagree on most issues it has talked about.
One issue I do want to mention is that this budget clearly gave
the top 6% wage earners in the country the biggest tax breaks
over that period of time. That is a fact. He was talking about a
15 year old boy that had to pay a lot of taxes on his very first
paycheque, yet the government gave the top 6% wage earners the
highest tax breaks over the long term in the budget. It
completely ignored the aspirations of health care, shipbuilding
and farmers. I would like his comments on that.
Mr. Deepak Obhrai: Mr. Speaker, first of all I will take
the compliment the member has given the Canadian Alliance and
thank him very much. We do have a different approach on how to
solve the problems.
He is absolutely right that it is the middle class Canadian
taxpayer that is taking the heavy burden of paying taxes and
giving money to the government for frivolous spending. I agree
with him on that point.
I have some statistics. Britain recently reduced to 10% the
maximum rate for low income taxpayers. Ireland is cutting its
maximum corporate rate in stages to 12.5% by 2003. Australia is
implementing substantial personal income tax cuts that will allow
for 80% of Australian taxpayers to pay no more than 30% maximum.
We can see from this that everyone understands economics and
that high taxes at the end of the day will kill productivity.
Even the Minister of Industry agrees with that. I hope I have
answered the question.
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to address the budget speech.
Unfortunately I listened to the member for Waterloo—Wellington
on the Liberal side when he made his presentation. I was rather
disappointed in his comments. I thought they were quite
inflammatory toward our party.
Before I get into the budget speech, the member for
Waterloo—Wellington made reference to the background of our
party, the Reform Party which is now the Canadian Alliance. I am
speaking as a member of parliament from the Canadian Alliance
party. I want the House and the Canadian people to know that.
The member for Waterloo—Wellington made some very damaging
comments as far as I am concerned to the people of faith who
trust in God and have faith in God. He made disparaging remarks
toward people that built this country. I do not believe those
comments should go unchallenged. I am surprised that the Speaker
did not stand and put an end to what he was saying, so I am going
to make reference to those comments.
He made very disparaging remarks to people of faith who trust in
God and trust in Jesus Christ. I do not think that is acceptable
nor should they remain unchallenged. They are the people who
built this country. Others came afterward.
1155
The Liberals may snicker and smile and I see some of them doing
that. It is absolutely unjustified. I will make very direct
reference to the comments of the member for Waterloo—Wellington.
I will certainly stand up for the people in the country who
believe in God.
Turning now to my speech on the budget, the budget that was
handed down certainly has had very little attention in one
respect. I know the members in the front row on the government
side wanted more attention to be paid to it but something which
overshadowed the budget was the boondoggle in HRDC. However,
that was very much directed to the budget because how are funds
managed when they are allotted to a specific area? How are they
managed? That is more important than setting the budget itself.
HRDC is a prime example. A lot of dirt is starting to stick to
members on that side of the House as a result of the HRDC
boondoggle.
A new budget was tabled. The last thing the government wanted
to happen was to have anybody pay attention to HRDC and how that
money was being spent. Look at the new budget. Members opposite
said they were even offering some tax relief. Unfortunately that
was all lost in the boondoggle at HRDC and rightly so because
there is a principle involving morality in how the taxpayers'
money is spent.
The taxpayer is looking very carefully at what the government is
doing. The new budget is not prominent in their minds but how
the money is being managed certainly is very prominent in their
minds. I will get to the specifics in the area of defence, for
which I am the critic.
The government allotted $1.9 billion extra to the defence
department over three years. Defence has been in the news a lot
over the last year and a half. It has suffered tremendously. It
has been starved to death. There is a crisis in the quality of
life of military personnel. There is substantial equipment rust
out, so much so that one has to question just how combat capable
our military really is.
The government came along and offered a $1.9 billion increase
over three years. Incrementally that could be chewed up in three
years just by doing tours overseas and doing a little on the
quality of life issue faced by our military personnel. The amount
is not a lot when it is divided over three years. It will not
stop the rust out. It just prolongs the problem. There has to
be a substantial infusion of funds to make our forces what they
should be, combat capable, and to give them the necessary
equipment to do the job.
I stand in the House as a member of the Canadian Alliance which
wants to see some changes in that area. We know that the budget
is inadequate and insufficient. There has to be a long range
plan.
There is no long range plan from this side of the House.
Everything is done on an ad hoc basis. The long range plan is 15
to 20 years down the road. That is how far one should look.
Believe me, the Liberals would have the opposition in total
agreement with a long range plan for the military.
1200
Mr. Werner Schmidt: Depending on what the plan is.
Mr. Art Hanger: It would depend on what the plan is. The
key point is to make our military combat capable. We ramp that
up to 15 or 20 years and, as the member across the way has
stated, we should include the reserves as part of that. I
totally agree with that. The reserves should be factored in and
should be part of the whole mobilization plan. Unfortunately,
that is not the case.
Our party has recommended that the budget be approximately 2% of
the GDP by the year 2015. We ramp up to the year 2015 and that
is where we would see the budget factoring in around 2% of the
GDP. Do hon. members across the way know what the GDP is in our
country right now? It is over $900 billion. In other words, to
allow for a combat capable force, the budget should be almost
double what it is right now.
Our budget is just a little over $10 billion. Our troop numbers
are still being cut down. There is still talk about mothballing
equipment. There is still talk about disbanding our reserve
units that live and work among us, in our cities and in our
towns, the most visible part of the military. That should not
happen. The funding should be at a level that keeps the reserves
active within the community. Unfortunately, so much that the
military does goes unnoticed. I find that very unfortunate
because we have a proud military history that we should all be
teaching our children, if only they knew.
That is where the Canadian Alliance is coming from. We see an
opportunity to really do something positive, to really build that
feeling of nationalism higher in our country and that opportunity
is now.
Mr. Alex Shepherd (Durham, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I
listened intently to the second member from the Canadian Alliance
today. We can dress them up but we cannot take them anywhere.
What I basically heard from the first speaker today was that we
on this side of the House are just a bunch of spenders and that
the tax cuts we gave in the last budget were minuscule. The very
same speaker then said that $2.5 billion more in health care was
not enough and that they wanted more. Then I heard the second
speaker stand and say that he wanted $8 billion more in the
defence portfolio. Those members have no idea where any of this
money will come from. They must think it is some kind of magic.
We will give tax reductions and increase spending at the same
time. It is just wonderful.
I heard them talk about the flat taxes. I believe it was eight
years ago that the former Reform Party talked about flat taxes.
Just about everybody, except the province of Alberta, which wants
to experiment with this, has given up on the idea of flat taxes.
Everybody knows that the great wonders that the members opposite
want to come up with to modernize the system and reduce the
administration of the taxation system are not feasible with flat
taxes. We can do that in a progressive system as well.
The issue is that a flat tax, by and of itself, is simply
shifting the tax burden from the lower middle income earners and
the middle income earners to the higher income earners of this
country. That is what the so-called CAs envision. By the way, I
also object to their name. I happen to be a chartered
accountant, as are some of my colleagues.
These people are now calling themselves a professional
designation by stealth. I suppose we all have to call them CAs
as well but they certainly do not know much about economics.
1205
Would the member explain how we are to keep ramping up all this
money and at the same time reduce taxes and have a responsible
approach to government?
Mr. Art Hanger: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the member's
question and it deserves a very direct answer.
The member is wondering where the money will come from. Why
does he not ask the HRDC minister how she has such a handle on
her department? One place we could certainly address as far as
waste and abuse is the HRDC department. To whom does all the
billions of dollars go?
I see a great need in the country for enforcement all the way
around. Both the RCMP and the military have suffered greatly at
the hands of the Liberal government. They barely have an identify
left. The military, the RCMP and other enforcement agencies in
Canada have been starved of funds and the member dares to ask
what more the government can do.
Accountability and priority are the keys. What is the priority?
We have a need for security. We live in a global environment
with a lot more threats. Where better to spend money than on our
military and our enforcement agencies in the country?
The member should look carefully at what his own cabinet is
doing when it spends money. He should ask his own constituents
what they think. If the member is in touch with his constituents
he will come to the quick realization that the money is not being
put to good use.
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, I commend my colleague for some of the points he has
made with regard to the Department of National Defence.
I would also like to ask the member, in response to the hon.
member opposite, for his comments on what the auditor general
said about $17 billion not being properly accounted for. We need
to recognize that it involves not only the HRDC department but
also EDC. What is happening here?
I wonder if my hon. colleague could briefly address that
question.
Mr. Art Hanger: Madam Speaker, I could go on for some
time when it comes to the issue of accountability. It has been a
concern to the Canadian people for a long time.
What are the priorities on this side of the House? I do not
care whether the member is looking at EDC money, HRDC money, CIDA
money or any other department where money is allotted, what are
the checks and balances in the system that would allow for that
money to be spent in a fair and equitable way? Unfortunately
that does not exist on that side of the House.
Mr. Joe Jordan (Leeds—Grenville, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
it is a pleasure to join in this debate. I followed it this
morning and it has been very interesting. I will make a quick
mention about the member who just spoke.
I probably disagree more than I agree with the policies of that
member's party but certainly the issue of the reserves is
tremendously important to rural communities. Any time I can sing
the praises of the Brockville Rifles I will take the opportunity
to do so. Had it not been for the reserves during the ice storm,
we would have been in real trouble.
I will now turn my attention to what the budget says about the
government's environmental agenda. Over the next four years the
Government of Canada will invest $700 million into a variety of
environmental initiatives. Most of the money is earmarked for
climate change and the remaining for pollution control, species
at risk, habitat protection and the development of environmental
and sustainable development indicators.
Let us take a closer look at some of these initiatives. The
government will invest $25 million into a green municipal
enabling fund to help municipalities and communities assess their
environmental needs. One hundred million dollars will go into a
green municipal investment fund to encourage private sector
innovation in areas like waste management and water conservation.
I think this is a very important expenditure, not necessarily in
terms of the amount of money, because as we can see from the
debate this morning, we can always argue about the dollars and
the amounts. The green municipal investment fund is a roll out
of the program that was started in Toronto, the Toronto
atmosphere fund. What it essentially does is make money
available at competitive interests rates for retrofitting energy
efficient technologies.
1210
Why I think this type of expenditure is appropriate is that the
current markets, if we look at the payback requirements for
business, the return on investment that some of these high tech
stocks are giving us in the stock market, the return on
investment that businesses will require for investments is
perhaps a year at the most. These environmental technologies are
much longer term investments. Without some sort of parallel
money that is not going against investment options that pay back
in less than a year, these things would never be done.
We need to invest in these technologies because we need to
demonstrate that they work. We need to demonstrate that there
are economic benefits to some of these new types of technologies,
otherwise we will never get them off the ground and off the
drafting table.
There is also $100 million for a sustainable development fund to
develop new technologies, particularly in the areas of clean
burning coal and new fuel cell development. In addition, $210
million over three years will go to the climate change action
fund, $60 million to the Canadian Foundation for Climate and
Atmospheric Science and $100 million over the next four years to
help developing countries deal with climate change.
I guess I should point out at this point that I will be
splitting my time with the member for Ottawa Centre.
The government will also put in $22 million over three years to
reducing pollution, to stabilize at $9 million per year
thereafter, as well as $8 million per year to improve the
environmental health of the Great Lakes, and part of the
infrastructure program is something being referred to now as
green infrastructure which will go to sewer and water and the
types of infrastructure projects that will result in improvements
in the quality of people's lives in terms of the quality of the
water that they are drinking. These investments are very timely
and definitely significant.
The ministers of energy and the environment will sit down in
Vancouver at the end of this month and again in the fall to
hammer out the national implementation strategy on climate
change. The Kyoto file is a very interesting file. If we can
come up with a strategy that is effective for dealing with our
greenhouse gas emissions we will go a long way to taking a
different kind of look at our environmental policy, a longer term
look that tries to align society's interest with the market's
interest so that we are not always at odds.
Some critics have said that $700 million falls short of what is
required. I would argue that we will never have enough money if
we do not spend our money wisely. Almost three-quarters of a
billion dollars is certainly a good start.
Let us take highways as an example. The transportation sector
is the single largest contributor to Canada's total greenhouse
gas emissions, accounting for 27%. How do we approach such a
challenge? Our highways and infrastructure are fundamental to a
competitive economy. The shipping of goods and services back and
forth is the key to why we are enjoying such growth in our export
markets. Rather than putting restrictions on the use of
highways, we could make changes to the way they are built.
I had a representation from the concrete manufacturers that
showed me data that said that if we made highways, especially the
ones that are heavily travelled by trucks, out of concrete as
opposed to asphalt that it would significantly reduce the amount
of fuel that would be used. I think those kinds of creative
approaches could turn this ship around. I think all of us would
agree that we are headed in the wrong direction.
I now want to spend my time on something that is very near and
dear to my heart. It is an item in the budget that did not get a
lot of attention. It was the announcement by the Minister of
Finance that $9 million will go to the development of a set of
sustainability indicators. I feel that there should have been
much more fanfare associated with this announcement.
At present public policy is pretty much based on the assumption
that expanding economic activity or growth is the only road to
well-being. This may have been accurate at one time but things
have changed.
If we measure the rate of a baby's growth it will tell us a lot
about how well that baby is doing but we cannot take that measure
and apply it to an adult and get useful information. We saw
exchanges just now about numbers, about money, about GDP. Is
anyone talking about whether Canadians are happy? I think the
GDP as an indicator of well-being falls well short of what I
think Canadians expect their governments to adopt.
1215
It makes no distinction between money spent on education and
money spent on cleaning up after automobile accidents. While GDP
mixes good expenses with bad, it takes no account of the unpaid
work in homes and by volunteers in our communities. If we did
not have that, our well-being would be significantly affected.
GDP fails to recognize any changes in the availability of
natural resources. My background is one of business. I have
never hugged a tree in my life but I may start. If I could draw
a business analogy, we run the country off the income statement.
When I say “we” I mean governments at all levels. We do not
have a balance sheet. We are assuming that we can use resources
and count the economic activity that it generates. In no way are
we reconciling these accounts. In no way are we keeping books
for future generations. We have bought into the notion that
growth is good and that the GDP is a measure of our well-being. I
really think we need to take another look at it.
Making decisions primarily on the information provided by the
gross domestic product is like driving a bus and just staring at
the speedometer. The GDP speedometer has its place but it does
not explain some matters of consequence. The Atlantic cod is a
classic example. The fisheries contribution to GDP was rising
steadily, right up to the day the stocks disappeared. Another
instrument on the dashboard, something that gave us some
indication of the health of the stocks, could have provided
information which would have stimulated action to steer clear of
the disaster that followed.
The dashboard of any modern society should be equipped with a
broad range of instruments to indicate changes in natural
resource stocks, pollution levels, biodiversity, the durability
of goods, employment satisfaction, the quality of education and
health care, leisure time, unpaid work, crime and other factors
of consequence. The political reality is that while for years
politicians have driven the bus looking only at the speedometer,
the people are looking out the windows. They are getting more
and more concerned.
What we count and what we measure signifies what we value. When
all we count is money, talk about the environment and social
cohesion does not produce action. When we legitimize other
factors by measuring and reporting on them in our core measure of
progress they become visible. This visibility enables anyone to
see how policies and actions affect the measures.
Increased awareness of causes and effects will naturally incline
decision makers to consider how their decisions might affect the
measures, and management processes will evolve to seek well-being
in a broader context. Once we understand the possibilities that
improved measures offer, we will never again accept a system that
relies on a narrow economic perspective. It is not unlike the
ISO process that businesses have gone through. It is simply
accountability and transparency that the country has never seen
before.
In conclusion, long after we have spent our tax cut on the
public policy implications of developing and reporting on a set
of sustainable indicators, we will be paying dividends for not
only Canadians today but for every generation that follows us.
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Madam Speaker, I listened with great pride to my
hon. colleague and good friend from the backbenches of the
Liberal Party. He took a turn in the debate on the budget and
talked about initiatives and issues on the environment which are
very serious to the New Democratic Party.
I know the hon. member has a private member's bill before the
House now which I support. It is a great initiative. I only hope
that the frontbench of his party will give the attention to that
bill that someone like me might give to it.
My question is for the hon. member. With environmental
legislation and regulations going through wherein provinces and
municipalities have so much of a say in how they are
incorporated, how does he see working closely with provinces and
municipalities on this budget or future budgets of any
government?
For example, in the Halifax-Dartmouth harbour we are pumping raw
sewage into the harbour. We have done that for over 200 years.
How does he propose that his government would work with that
municipality to keep it in public hands and to maintain the
protection of our waters, harbours, bays and inlets?
Mr. Joe Jordan: Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for
an interesting question. When I look at the budget and the
approach of the government to the whole issue of the environment,
not necessarily in a partisan way, by earmarking the
infrastructure program in the short term to go to green projects
we are sending a very clear message that although new city halls
might be nice we do not have enough money to go down that road
like we did in the last one. We have to earmark for things like
sewer and water.
1220
I keep coming back to the larger issue. As the hon. member said
I do have a private member's bill but this is certainly not my
idea. I caught the wave of the indicators because I saw the
inherent logic of it.
We can engage Canadians. Canadians can have a measure to find
out if their well-being is increasing or decreasing in things
like literacy, mortality and mobility rates. Statistics Canada
already keeps track of many of these things. The first step is
to look historically at the environmental movement. I say this
as an outsider. It has constantly butt heads with economic
factors. It must be very frustrating to be an environmentalist
because money does not talk. It swears and they keep losing,
losing and losing.
We have to step back and engage Canadians. Let us start
reporting on the state of the environment in Canada. If we can
engage Canadians then governments can be dragged along, kicking
and screaming. They will follow. That is why I underscore the
significance of the indicators announcement. It is a long term
strategy but it will go a long way to changing our approach so
that we align economics with the best interest of society and the
environment.
I will give the member an example. Germany has a program called
lifetime products stewardship. If one builds a washing machine,
sells it and it breaks, one has to take it back. It does not go
to a landfill site. Let us look at what has happened over time.
If we take a look at the workings of a washing machine, a very
large percentage of the parts is being recycled. The bracket
that holds the motor is the same bracket that holds the
compressor in a refrigerator or the picture tube in a television
set.
For people watching at home, they should turn their sets around
and look at how many different screws are in their televisions.
That is built-in obsolescence. That all ends up in landfill
sites. As a result of the law in Germany they have better
products. They are cheaper to make. They last longer. They are
cheaper to repair. At the end of the day the environment wins,
the economy wins and society wins because consumers are paying
less for goods.
We have gone far enough with the notion that the economy and the
environment are at loggerheads. We need to shift the sands and
take a different approach. It starts with Canadians being
informed about problems and priorities. A set of indicators, not
unlike what the auditor general reports on finances every year,
will engage Canadians. They will demand that their politicians
start making decisions that are in the best interest of not only
the economy but society and the environment as well.
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I am
delighted to speak to the budget items before the House today. I
remember when we were on the opposition side and the government
of the day was running huge deficit after huge deficit, day after
day. The economy was at an all time low. We had a high
inflation rate, a high unemployment rate and high interest rates.
When we came to power back in 1993 we were faced with a
situation where we had in excess of a $42 billion deficit, a huge
debt, very high unemployment and high interest rates. Less than
five years in office we were able, with the leadership of the
Prime Minister, his cabinet and his caucus, to bring things under
control, turn things around and not only control the deficit but
generate a surplus, not only beat down inflation but bring it to
a very low level and keep it under control. For the first time
in more than 30 years we were able to bring unemployment to an
all time low.
We would not have been able to do that on our side alone and by
ourselves. We needed the co-operation of the Canadian public. We
needed the co-operation of those in the private sector, the
public sector and all levels of government.
1225
As the Prime Minister has always indicated, Canadians
collectively, along with the government, managed to get us out of
the slump and to meet the economic challenge. To do that we had
to make a lot of sacrifices. We had to cut spending and get rid
of many things we used to do in the past that because of the
financial situation we were unable to do any more. In some cases
we had to pass on responsibilities of the Government of Canada to
others who may be able to do it as well as the government was
doing before, and even in some cases better.
I want to talk about the areas of health care and education. Now
that we have our house in order and the government has been able
to get the financial situation under control, it is time for us
to start investing. I want to be frank. I am not interested in
seeing the government throw a load of money at the problem to
satisfy a particular premier or province. My constituents are
not interested in that. They are demanding a level of
accountability and a level of responsibility. The two go hand in
hand every time the Government of Canada hands down transfer
payments to a provincial government or other levels of
government. My constituents want accountability.
When we talk about transfer payments for health care and
education, my constituents do not want the federal government to
pass on money to provinces that will not effectively and
efficiently use the money for those purposes. They want them to
use it efficiently and effectively. They want the provinces to
respect the five principles of health care. They want the
provincial governments to move forward, to get out of the past
and into the future, to stop talking about issues such as primary
care and to start talking about issues such as the way we improve
and deliver services, access, and accountability to Canadians.
The way we used to deliver services is not applicable any more.
In the past our population was not aging at the speed that it is
aging now. By the year 2010 or 2015 we will have double the
number of senior citizens as we had in the past or have in the
present. We have an aging population and as such we need to move
the health care system from an institutional type of setting into
the community where we will have more home care support and
services, more services through community centres and through
frontline agencies and organizations. Then we could provide more
and better services than we had in the past or what we are doing
now.
If it means we have to bring the provinces, the territories and
other levels of government kicking and screaming into the this
century, my constituents would support the government and
continue to support it 100%. The status quo is simply and purely
not working any more. We have to introduce new ways to provide
services to Canadians across the country in the areas of health
care and education.
That is why the Prime Minister and the Minister of Health have
called on the provincial ministers of health and the premiers of
the provinces to come together to talk about ways to deliver the
health care system in a more efficient, effective and responsive
way. Then Canadians would receive a return on their investment
and the appropriate service they so much deserve and need.
1230
It is not a question of simply increasing the transfer payments
to the provinces and that is the end of it, the problem is
solved. Far from it. I bet we could fill this House and five
houses on top of it with hundreds of millions of dollars, even
billions, but unless the structure is changed and the way we
deliver those services is changed we will have the same problem
15 or 20 years from now. We could have a band-aid solution and
we could buy our way out of the problem in the short term, but in
the long term we have to look at the structure of the problem.
The same thing applies in the area of education. When we talk
about education we talk about young children who have not yet
reached the educational system, or those who were born three,
four, five or ten years ago who are entering the system. If we
want to reform the educational system, that is the area which
must be our priority. That is the area into which we have to put
our investment.
After the election of 1993 this government made an unequivocal
commitment that, should the provincial governments agree, we
would have a national child care program whereby all of the
different partners would come together. Guess what? One
province after the other stood to denounce the federal government
for intruding into provincial jurisdiction, yet they turned
around and said “But give us the money”.
Canadians do not want it to be handed down from the federal
government to the provincial governments without any
accountability, without a tangible partnership that we can
measure and see. To that extent, here again the Prime Minister
has called on the provincial premiers to come together to develop
a national strategy to deal with our children and youth, and to
have a system which responds to the needs of Canadians.
Those are the two challenges facing us in the days, months and
years to come. My colleagues on both sides of the House of
Commons have a responsibility and a mandate to go to their
provincial colleagues and stress to them the importance of
working collectively as partners to respond to the needs of
Canadians, not to stand in the House and say that if we spray
more money on the problems the problems might go away.
* * *
POINTS OF ORDER
CANADIAN ALLIANCE
Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I understand that in my
absence from the Commons the Speaker ruled on a name change for
the Reform Party to the Canadian Alliance.
Madam Speaker, I feel this impinges upon my privileges as an MP
because I ran against the Reform Party in the last election. Even
Elections Canada does not recognize the name Canadian Alliance.
Those people on the other side are changing their party name in
midstream.
Madam Speaker, I would ask you, surely the Speaker should
consult the table officers to see whether or not a proper
resolution of this parliament should be passed before this name
change is authorized and recognized by the Speaker.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Very well, I will
take the hon. member's point under consideration. We certainly
will come back to the House with an answer.
* * *
[Translation]
THE BUDGET
FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
The House resumed consideration of the motion and of the
amendment.
Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien (Frontenac—Mégantic, BQ): Madam Speaker, my
distinguished colleague, the member for Ottawa Centre, boasted
naturally, as he should and by the book, about the latest budget
of the Minister of Finance. However, formulating a budget is
not the be all end all; the money still has to be well managed.
Quite randomly, the HDRC internal auditors pulled out 459 files,
for a sort of Léger and Léger poll, and in 80% of them, they
found malfeasance or dubious cases.
If we extrapolate, the figure mishandled by the Department of
Human Resources Development could be between $1 billion and $3
billion.
1235
Would the member for Ottawa Centre agree to have an outside
inquiry examine the entire 11,000 files of the department, in
order to shed light on this administration?
Doing so could reveal that amounts of $1 billion or $3 billion
were not mismanaged, given to friends of the government as was
the case in the riding of Brant, or Cornwall or Saint-Maurice,
the riding of the Prime Minister.
It is very embarrassing for a government to be seen to be badly
managing the Department of Human Resources Development, as it
penalizes the poor workers, only 42% of whom qualify for
employment insurance.
Would my colleague from Ottawa Centre agree to having a full and
exhaustive inquiry—we know that 14 RCMP investigations are
currently underway—so we may discover from each of the HRDC files
from the past four years whether public funds have been properly
managed?
Members are certainly aware that a good budget warrants having
100% of the funds well managed. The government has no right to
spend public money left and right essentially to buy votes in
the next election.
Mr. Mac Harb: Madam Speaker, first, we must pay careful
attention to the fact that there are two issues involved here.
One is the fact that the hon. member wants greater transparency.
As regards that aspect, the auditor general has already said
that he was taking a close look at these files. He will submit
his report by the end of the year.
As a member of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, I can
assure you that, here in Canada, we manage our affairs much more
effectively than anywhere else in the world. The Canadian
government is very transparent, much more so than any other in
the world. I am convinced that nowhere in the world, including
among the provinces, territories, North American countries,
African states, European nations or Asian countries, is there a
more transparent government than this one.
The other issue raised in the House is that the other opposition
party wants the government to do its share once and for all in
terms of assistance to the Canadian regions and ridings that
need such help.
I am asking the hon. member if he believes that this government
should stop helping Canadians, which would deprive them of
opportunities, of a bridge, of better options generally.
I can assure him that, in my riding of Ottawa Centre, people
want the government to continue to take care of public money as
it has been doing for the past six years. My constituents are
very pleased by the way this government has been managing public
finances.
They also want to tell the hon. member that they would rather
wait until the end of the year and read the auditor general's
report.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Madam
Speaker, before beginning, I must say that I was a bit surprised
at the superlatives used by the member for Ottawa Centre. I
urge him to tone down the hype. In the coming weeks, his
government may be shown to be not as transparent and lily-white
as he would like us to think.
It is a bit much to be told that things are better run here than
anywhere else in the world, or in any other province, when we
know that the financial difficulties the provinces are facing
are largely the result of this government's budget decisions.
1240
Every year, I take a certain pride in rising in the House on
behalf of my constituents to speak to the Minister of Finance's
budget statement. It is my duty as a parliamentarian to respect
the sacred principle of responsible government for which our
brave Patriotes fought more than a century and a half ago.
Once again, in his budget for 2000-01, the Minister of Finance
has turned a deaf ear to the expectations and concerns of the
public.
Yet last fall the Bloc Quebecois had taken the trouble to
consult members of the public in order to find out what they
thought about how the government was spending their money and to
relay this back to the minister.
I would like to take this opportunity to warmly thank all the
social and economic stakeholders—members of the business
community, university students, union representatives and
community workers—in Verchères—Les-Patriotes and throughout Quebec
who were good enough to share their views on this issue during
the prebudget consultations and exchanges that took place after
the budget was brought down.
I would particularly like to mention the contribution made in
Verchères—Les Patriotes by representatives of the Association des
gens d'affaires de Boucherville, the Saint-Denis-sur-Richelieu and
Montérégie Association féminine d'éducation et d'action sociale,
the Carrefour jeunesse-emploi de Marguerite d'Youville and the
Lajemmerais Centre local de développement. However, the fact of
the matter is that the Minister of Finance paid very little
attention to what they had to say.
Tax relief, particularly for the middle class; an increase in
transfer payments to the provinces for health, postsecondary
education and income support; lower EI premiums and an improved
EI system; creation of a solid investment program, particularly
with respect to municipal infrastructures; and gradual and
balanced debt reduction are all approaches the public would like
the government to take.
Despite the feigned focus on the objectives defined by the
public as priorities, none has been attained. This government
has made much of reducing taxes but has, in actual fact, done
very little. With the considerable latitude available to the
Minister of Finance, we might well have expected to see some
response to the expectations of those who, like the Bloc
Quebecois, have called for a tax cut in the order of $6 billion
this year.
With anticipated surpluses of close to $150 billion by the year
2004, federal tax reductions for Quebec will in fact total only
$3.3 billion over three years. In comparison, the tax cuts
announced a few days later by the Government of Quebec are far
more significant, despite the infinitely more modest resources
available to Quebec.
The federal plan to reduce the tax burden focuses mainly on
indexed tax tables and the progressive elimination of the 5%
surtax, and these measures will not do much for the least well
off and the middle class.
It needs to be pointed out particularly that the indexation of
tax tables does not constitute a tax cut. It is solely intended
to avoid having the taxpayer's taxes raised merely because the
tax tables are not indexed. This is something we have been
calling for since 1994. After pocketing close to $17 billion
too much, the government has now decided to finally act and to
index the tax tables.
The situation as far as the transfer payments to the provinces
are concerned is not much better.
To enable them to better meet the crying needs in health and
education, the provinces were expecting a federal reinvestment
of about $4.2 billion, this year, in social transfers. Instead,
the Minister of Finance chose to allocate a measly $2.5 billion
over a four-year period. That amount is not enough to make up for
the $32.5 billion approximately in cuts made by the federal
government since 1994 to transfers to the provinces, including
over 50% in Quebec.
The government deprived the provinces of $32.5 billion, then
gave them a measly $2.5 billion over a four-year period. And it
expects them to be grateful.
In spite of reduced budgets, partly because of the federal cuts,
this year Quebec will invest 14 times more new money in health
than the federal government, and eight times more in education.
This is significant.
And what about the federal government's tendency to get involved
in provincial jurisdictions in an increasingly insidious and
underhanded fashion?
In order to cover its intrusions in education, for example, the
federal government talks about knowledge economy, the
development of new skills, the importance of skills and
knowledge, research assistance, technological innovation, and it
sprinkles millions of dollars of public money in various
foundations and trusts, which it created itself and which are
not subject to parliamentary scrutiny, instead of transferring
the money directly to the provinces, to allow them to manage it
based on their specific needs and priorities.
1245
As it invests hundreds of millions of dollars in these
foundations and trusts, almost guaranteed sources of dispute
with the provinces, citing the sacred challenge of research and
technological innovation, it forces the Tokamak project to close
by withdrawing the modest $7.2 million it had invested annually
in the past.
We wonder whether the federal government has not withdrawn from
the most important energy research and development project in
Quebec, simply because it could not handle working in
partnership with the Government of Quebec.
No, really, it is distressing to watch the federal government
strutting about as it has after such a disappointing budget.
Employment insurance is another case in which the federal
government cuts a pitiful figure. It will continue in fact to
pocket billions of dollars on the backs of the unemployed.
Again this year, the government will be taking in over
$5.5 billion, thanks to the surpluses generated by the employment
insurance fund. The chief actuary pointed out that, by the end
of 2000, the government will have drawn off $31.5 billion in
surplus since the start of its mandate from the employment
insurance fund.
This actuary also said that an amount of between $10 billion and
$15 billion would be more than ample to meet any increase in
costs arising from a recession.
So, the Minister of Finance has taken between $15 billion and
$20 billion too much out of the pockets of workers and employers
over the past seven years, thus depriving six unemployed people
in ten of the benefits of the employment insurance plan.
It is interesting to note, in this regard, that the minister
acknowledged candidly in his budget speech that “these rates
will keep coming down to the point where they cover just the
costs of the EI program itself”. What a candid admission of
guilt. The minister acknowledges that the rates are higher than
those needed by the program.
What is keeping him from immediately lowering the contribution
rates so that they just cover the program's requirements and no
more, starting right now? Perhaps instead he should improve the
plan by increasing benefits and making eligibility criteria more
flexible so that benefits will be available to more than the two
young unemployed persons out of ten who can currently qualify?
When one realizes that the government has reaped more benefit
out of the employment insurance plan than the unemployed have in
the past six or seven years, there is good reason to ask some
serious questions.
The provinces and the municipalities which have been demanding
the implementation of a new infrastructure program from the
federal government will also be disappointed. The Bloc
Quebecois recommendation to the federal government was for an
investment of $3 billion this year into infrastructure related
projects.
In order to meet the numerous expectations in this area, part of
this funding could have been invested in a support program for
the shipbuilding industry.
The municipalities were calling for $1 billion annually over 15
years to be invested by the federal government in
infrastructures. Ottawa turned a deaf ear and plans to inject a
mere $100 million into infrastructures this year. The
municipalities will get this $1 billion from the federal
government in the long run, but over six years only, not
annually as they had requested. Contrary to all expectations,
the federal government's efforts seem to be equally timid and
insufficient as far as reimbursement of the debt is concerned.
To conclude, this budget gives us the impression that the
federal government is trying to get the public to swallow a
sugar pill. They would have us believe that they have addressed
the real problems and responded to the real expectations of the
public by really laying into public finances.
Since 1993, close to $80 billion have flowed into the coffers of
this government, which passes itself off as a good manager,
without its having to make the least effort.
It leaned on others to come up with the surplus that it now has
and that it is doing such a bad job of administering: $31 billion
were siphoned away from workers and employers at the expense of
the unemployed; the provinces kicked in their $32 and a half
billion as a result of cuts and have been wrestling with major
problems in their health care and education systems every since;
and, because the federal government refused to index the tax
tables, another $17 billion quietly built up in its coffers.
1250
And how are all these groups that made it possible for the
federal government to get its fiscal house in order thanked? In
dribs and drabs.
By distributing its favours right and left, the Liberal
government has shown that it is not yet free of its old
spend-thrift demons. By handing out money all over the place, it
has made the decision not to focus its efforts on a limited
number of budgetary items that are felt to be priorities, with
the disappointing result that none of its investments have any
real impact.
Just as a tree can be identified by the fruit it bears, so can a
good government be identified by its actions.
There is no getting around the fact that, with this budget,
Ottawa has once again put itself on the map as the capital of
broken dreams and promises.
[English]
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the hon. member went over a number of items. I started to add
them up and I lost track of the number of ways he wanted to spend
additional money.
He talked about additional tax cuts. He said that the
deindexation was not a tax break for Canadians because it had to
be done. He wanted more. He said there were no real tax breaks
and he wanted more tax breaks. I do not know how much he would
like to add to the spending of the government in terms of reduced
taxation. He talked about EI, another $5 billion to deal with the
national surplus. He talked about another $1 billion for
shipbuilding. He also talked about the need for health care
spending.
The hon. member should consider that the revenues coming into
the government through income taxes, payroll taxes, et cetera,
all go into the same pool of funds. The funds that Canadians
contribute are available to take care of programs. Right now we
are presenting a balanced budget. With that balanced budget the
member is saying he wants $5 billion here, another $5 billion
there, another $1 billion for shipbuilding and another amount, I
do not know how much as he was not specific, on health care.
If those expenditures or tax reductions are to be delivered, the
money has to come from somewhere. If the member is suggesting
that there should have been another $5 billion to $15 billion
expended in the budget for tax reduction, EI reduction, health
care, et cetera, what would he cut year after year after year in
order to fund those additional expenditures or tax reductions?
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, obviously, the hon. member
heard my speech, but he did not understand it.
He claims that I said that the government's budget does not
include tax cuts. He is surprised that I would make such a
statement. I did not say that the budget does not include tax
cuts and I ask the member to listen to my reply, because it
might help him not only hear it, but also understand it.
I never claimed that the budget does not include tax cuts. I
simply said that, based on the public's expectations, these tax
cuts were inadequate.
It is a fact that the indexing of tax tables is not a tax cut.
This only means that taxes will not increase next year, as they
otherwise would have with non-indexation. This is, for all
intents and purposes, much more a freeze than a cut. In the long
term, it obviously means savings for taxpayers, but it is not a
tax cut.
Also, the reduction of the 5% surtax will benefit the rich much
more than the middle class and the poor, who have been the
primary targets of the Liberals' initiatives to put their fiscal
house in order, since 1994.
The member asked where the money would come from. He seemed to
be implying that I was proposing an increase in spending. I want
to make it clear to him that I never suggested investing $1
billion annually in a shipbuilding policy.
What I said is that the municipalities and the provinces were
asking for annual investments of about $1 billion, over a 15
year period, in infrastructures. The government is obviously not
meeting these expectations.
1255
Part of this money could have been used in conjunction with a
policy on shipbuilding, a policy on the shipbuilding industry,
as all the premiers requested.
I come back to the member's question about where the money will
come from. I say quite simply to our Liberal friends that they
should not fall back into their bad old habit of sprinkling
their generosity about here and there, they should focus the
budget on a number of priority items, such as tax reductions and
transfers to the provinces.
The government has decided to invest in foundations and trusts
outside parliamentary control and appoint as members of their
boards individuals over whom it has good control.
These trusts will intervene in the fields of education or health
care or both.
Instead of millions being invested in a given trust, we see that
nearly 80 of these trusts and foundations have been created
since 1994. The government should stop investing millions of
dollars here and there, take all this money and consolidate it
in a single transfer payment to the provinces. They are best
equipped to deal with the problems facing them in the fields of
health care and education.
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I would like to
support what my colleague from Verchères—Les-Patriotes said at the
start of his speech about the hon. member for Ottawa Centre. I
have heard some questionable praise of this government and of
this country, which is “the best in the world” and which is
totally without scandal or anything else negative.
This is really hiding one's head in the sand like an ostrich.
The house is burning down, but “Everything's fine, just great,
so worry not”.
I find it almost boring to take part in this debate on the
budget, because it ought to pass without any comment. The good
news that has been so long awaited has been put off until later.
It has been put off until the next time there is an election
campaign, this fall; maybe they will make it part of their
platform.
This is why they have put off the tax cuts until 2001 and 2002.
Taxes will be lowered later; we will have to wait. As I have
already said, it will likely be announced during the election
campaign.
Yet the federal government had a clearly sufficient margin of
manoeuvrability by this year to step up its efforts to reduce
the tax burden. They are telling the taxpayers to be patient.
It will take another few years for individuals, families and
businesses to really be able to profit from the tax breaks
announced by the Minister of Finance.
As for the indexation of the tax tables, the Bloc Quebecois has
been calling for this measure ever since 1993. Since 1994 the
Minister of Finance has got $17 billion from the pockets of
taxpayers. That is clear: $17 billion.
Why did he not do it earlier? Because it was very lucrative.
The federal government did not index the tax tables earlier
because this was how it came up with $17 billion.
I would point out to those listening, who are perhaps not
familiar with this issue, that indexing the tax tables does not
mean that taxes will go down. My colleague explained this
earlier. It merely means that next year an individual's taxes
will not go up. Indexing the tax tables merely means that
people will not pay more.
The big losers in this budget are the provinces. In fact, the
Minister of Finance refused to go along with the premiers'
urgent demand for a permanent increase in the cash portion of
the social transfer intended for health, social assistance and
postsecondary education.
1300
The provinces demanded that the Canada social transfer be
restored to the 1993-94 level. I was elected in 1993, at which
time I was the health critic. Unless I am mistaken, things have
been going badly in that sector since the Canada social transfer
was slashed and separate payments were combined into one smaller
amount, which was handed over to the provinces with the order to
find a way to make it cover health, social assistance and
postsecondary education. These billions of dollars in cuts left
the provinces in a very difficult situation, particularly in the
health care sector, where needs are growing.
We often mention that the population is aging, that new
technologies are increasingly costly, but the federal government
turns a deaf ear and makes cuts to eliminate its deficit, on the
backs of the poor and the sick. It passes the bill on to the
provinces and then says “The problem is that the provinces do
not manage their affairs properly”. But the public is not
stupid. It can see that, by squeezing the provinces, this
government has forced them to reduce their services.
The Minister of Finance tells us that he did provide an
increase. But he did not increase the Canada social transfer. He
took $2.5 billion, put it in a trust and told the provinces “You
are entitled to a prorated amount, you are entitled to a few
million, based on conditions set by me”. This is all because of
the social union. We were right when we said that the provinces
sold their birthright for a pittance.
This is how it happened. The provinces are now forced to beg and
to implore the big boss, who has the money, and say “Please give
us some money, because we have people who are dying of hunger”.
This is the problem.
Instead of fully restoring the Canada social transfer, which is
supposed to meet the public's needs, the Minister of Finance
preferred to start another legal battle by establishing this
independent trust which will have, in my opinion, a totally
inadequate budget.
Another problem generated by this budget is that of social
housing and infrastructures. In the case of social housing, it
is nothing short of outrageous. The government did not even
allocate any money, except a few dollars to renovate housing
units that are in a state of disrepair. But we are asking for
social housing for the poor. We are asking for new units, not
just minor renovations.
I heard Liberal Party colleagues boasting about the sums they
supposedly invested in social housing. However, if members look
at the budget, they will have a hard time finding funds for
social housing. It is like looking for a needle in the
haystack.
The Bloc Quebecois asked the minister to inject $3 billion into
an infrastructure program, including $1.7 billion for social
housing. The request had the support of all the community
groups, such as FRAPRU in Quebec, which looks after social
housing for the most disadvantaged. It supported the proposal,
because the need is there and to the extent of at least $1.7
billion. When the government says it looks after the poor in
this budget, well, we can forget about that.
Instead, the government announced provision for infrastructures
in municipalities and urban and rural communities. In the first
year, it will provide $100 million for all the provinces.
But, Quebec's share of this will be between $20 and $25 million.
Given that five kilometres of road costs about $1 million, does
the government think we are going to go far with that?
There is worse to come—the employment insurance plan. This
budget provides no improvement to the employment insurance plan.
There is simply a reduction in contribution rates of 10 cents a
year.
1305
We must not say it too loud, because I do not think the Liberals
have emphasized it much. Ten cents a year is so ridiculous. In
four years, it will be 40 cents. Applause, applause, employment
insurance contributions will go down a whole 40 cents. This is
scandalous and unacceptable, because the Minister of Finance is
using this fund as if it were his milk cow. He is using the
unemployed as if they were his milk cows. The robbery
continues.
According to the chief actuary, the accumulated surplus will be
up to $31.3 billion by the end of the year 2000.
To think that the former Celanese employees who were involved in
a massive layoff this last week, and who have paid into the EI
fund for 20, 25, 30 or 35 years, will get nothing. They are not
even eligible for employment insurance because they got
separation pay, and that is considered income for determining
eligibility for employment insurance.
The Minister of Finance had, however, given us a hint of a
possibility, via the former Minister of Human Resources
Development, that he would be putting into place an enhanced
POWA-style program to help these former workers with 35 years of
service, who have always paid into the EI fund. These workers
have no prospects of help, and find themselves in a desperate
situation and forced onto welfare. This is a horrible and
unacceptable situation.
[English]
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for my hon.
colleague from the Bloc Quebecois party.
The Liberal government has completely abandoned its moral
obligation toward health care and has thus forced the provinces
looking at other avenues for more privatization of health care in
terms of user fees and everything else. In fact the premier of
my province of Nova Scotia is now talking about user fees for
some forms of health care and other forms of doctors appointments
and so on. We hope that does not happen in the next budget. We
also notice in the province of Quebec that one of the hospitals
is initiating some sort of user fee system for some aspects of
health care.
Does the hon. member think that is the way the provinces should
go or should the federal government actually start to live up to
its obligations to health care and to the five principles which
it originally signed on to.
[Translation]
Mrs. Pauline Picard: Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for this
fine question.
Yes, I believe there is no room for a two tier system. If
Quebec does become sovereign one day, these conditions, the five
great principles the Canada Health Act incorporated, will
remain. I think we have a good health insurance plan in Canada.
It also covers all of the most disadvantaged. Everyone can
therefore obtain treatment without cost. It is accessible, and
the care is good.
However, at the moment what we are faced with—and it is of some
concern—is the famous cuts by this government to the Canada
social transfer, drastic cuts, when the provinces were at a very
critical point because of the increase in population aging and
the increased costs of new technologies.
The provinces were already in a situation of having to cut
themselves in their management in order to reduce their
deficits.
1310
The biggest problem came from this Liberal government, which put
the axe to the Canada social transfer, causing the provinces to
now find themselves faced with desperate needs in terms of the
sick and of income security. Cuts had to be made there as well,
but support must continue to be given to these people.
There is good reason then for the appearance of other means,
such as private industry. It sees in this a share of the market.
By wanting to restore a system with shorter waiting lists and
better care, it is facing off with the governments. Private
enterprise is putting enormous pressure on the governments.
The governments must really make sure they can maintain all
health care services by not losing sight of these five
fundamental principles.
We oppose a two tiered system, but the federal government must
now do its part to ensure that the provinces can keep and honour
these five principles.
[English]
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, this truly is a watershed budget for Canadians. After
seven years of sacrifice, of seeing treasured programs reduced
and bracket creep eat up more and more of their family incomes,
Canadians finally can see the benefits of the long period of
restraint which has addressed our overspending, which has produced
two surplus budgets in a row. It is finally providing the kind
of tax relief and reinvestment in our social programs and the
future of our economy that Canadians want to see to create a
better future for their children.
I was privileged during the course of the discussions leading up
to the 2000 budget to have the benefit of significant and
important input from my constituents in Ottawa West—Nepean. In
the fall we held a prebudget consultation meeting and I was very
pleased that there was lively and well-informed discussion.
The discussion focused not only on the long term and short term
interests of individuals in my constituency but just as
important, the long term interests of all Canadians.
We also distributed a survey during our door to door visits last
summer and throughout the fall, at various meetings and in my
fall householder. There was a very impressive response. I want
to refer to that prebudget survey which was done in Ottawa
West—Nepean and then talk about how the budget has responded to
the concerns expressed by my constituents.
Very clearly the top priority of more than one-third of the
respondents was personal tax reductions. The government has
responded. The second most important priority was health care.
The government, notwithstanding the comments of the member from
the Bloc, has responded. People were also concerned about the
environment and the need to invest in new environmental
solutions. The government has responded.
The largest employer in this region now is not the federal
government. It is the high tech sector. People were concerned
about investment in research, science and technology. The
government has responded.
Since we were able to start tax relief in the 1998 budget, we
have focused most on low and middle income Canadians. We have
focused on families with children and the deindexing of tax
brackets, reducing the tax rate for the middle income bracket,
raising the amount of basic income that is exempt from income
tax, raising the level of the middle and top tax brackets and
eliminating the 5% surtax.
1315
All of this will lead to a 15% reduction, on average, for all
Canadians, which does not include the benefits of the tax
reductions in the last budget, 18% for low and middle income
families and over 20% for families with children. All in all,
more than nine million Canadians will see a reduction in their
taxes just by changing the middle income tax rate.
There were some tax measures as well that were important to this
region and to the high technology sector. In the
telecommunications area, 75% of the activity in that sector
happens in the national capital region. It will be of particular
interest to that sector of the economy that the tax rate for
service and high tech industries will drop from 28% to 21% over
the next five years, with the first reduction kicking in by
January 1, 2001.
The treatment of stock options, which is a major component of
compensation for many in the high tech sector, has changed, so
that they become taxable only when sold. That is a measure which
the high tech sector has requested for some time in the interests
of keeping and retaining highly qualified employees in that
industry.
The other important measure to stimulate investment in small
start-up companies is the rollover of $500,000 which is now
permitted. Money which has been invested can now be rolled over
into a new investment without incurring any capital gains. That
will be a major generator for investment in somewhat high risk
but nonetheless extremely important new initiatives in the high
technology sector.
We are also supporting the foundation that feeds those new and
growing sectors of the economy which will be producing an
increasing proportion of jobs by funding 2,000 research chairs
across Canada. We are ensuring that the basic research necessary
to keep our economy innovative, growing and providing new
opportunities for the next generation will continue.
The investment we have made in this budget in education by
allowing people to receive far more support for their education
tax free, from $500 up to $3,000, will make it easier for more
young people to get a post-secondary education.
The fact that we are putting more money into the Canada
Foundation for Innovation is another important investment in the
future of our economy and employment for Canadians. I should
mention that one initiative of that foundation is its investment
in the newly launched National Capital Institute of
Telecommunications in this region.
Lest anyone think that the only concern is money, dollars and
cents, it is not. Canadians are concerned about health care.
Notwithstanding what the Bloc member just said, she should
acknowledge that the transfers to the provinces for health,
post-secondary education and social services has increased by 25%
in the last two budgets. We know that is to make up for cuts
which had to be made to get our finances in order, but
notwithstanding what some of the provinces are saying, 33% of all
public spending in health care is by the federal government.
That is a fairly significant increase and a significant
contribution to an area that is primarily a provincial
responsibility.
I want to leave time for my colleague to speak, with whom I will
be splitting my time, so I will only mention very briefly what I
think is an equally important contribution, and that is the $700
million that will be committed over the next three years for
major environmental initiatives. There will be $210 million over
three years for green energy development and the climate change
action fund, and $100 million for a new sustainable development
technology fund which will help companies develop new
environmental technologies and bring them to market.
This will accomplish two things for Canada and the rest of the
world: finding solutions to environmental problems and finding
them in a way that will also benefit the Canadian economy.
There will be $100 million for a new green municipal investment
fund, a revolving fund that will leverage private sector
investment in such areas as waste management and water
conservation at the municipal level, as well as $90 million over
three years for a national strategy on species at risk.
1320
I can only conclude that this is a well balanced budget. It
meets the needs of Canadians, their expectations for tax relief
after a number of years of very stringent financial and economic
measures, and it also invests very clearly in a better future and
quality of life for all Canadians.
Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris—Moose Mountain, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the words of the hon.
member. It is obvious from all of the surveys that health care
is the number one issue across Canada. It is also obvious that,
no matter what province we travel in, we can pick up a newspaper
and there will be horror stories about the health care that is
being provided because of lack of funding.
We know that we have an aging population. We know that modern
technology in health care requires a great deal more money. We
also know that the premise of sharing between the federal
government and the provinces with the Canada Health Act is really
based on a formula which is quite simple, 50:50. That has
dropped, in some cases, to only 11% from the federal government
to the provincial government. Health care is in serious trouble
in Canada if it is to remain universal, as we would like it to
be.
What does the hon. member see having to happen if we are to
preserve universal health care in Canada?
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, as one who represents
the riding with the second highest proportion of seniors in the
country, next only to Victoria, I am well aware of the growing
need for health care services for seniors and of the demand that
will placed on our system.
Let me first correct something the member said. He may not have
heard me, but the fact is that the federal government contributes
33%, not 11% but 33%, of the public funding for health care in
this country.
He also should be very well aware that our first priority, our
first major investment in last year's budget, after we had gotten
rid of the deficit, was to health care. We place a great
importance on health care and on our public health care system.
In that budget we made a major investment of $11.5 billion, plus
we eliminated the cap that had been placed on transfers to
Ontario, B.C. and Alberta. In Ontario alone that meant nearly $1
billion extra.
The major investment in this budget again was money for health
care. In the last two budgets alone we increased by 25% the
amount of money going to the provinces through the Canadian
health and social transfer. That is 25% in just two years.
We are now at the highest level ever of federal contributions to
the provinces in those areas. We also know that we have to work
very closely with the provinces to look at better primary health
care, home care, community care for people, not only as they age,
but when they are ill and when they are recuperating from
illnesses. There is a major job for us to do together to improve
our health care system. Money is not the only thing that is
needed. We also need new approaches, and community based
approaches, which I fully support.
1325
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC): Mr. Speaker, I would
like to return to the environment for a second. The hon. member
mentioned the investment that the Government of Canada will make
for species at risk. The legislation to address this will come
forth in the next little while. All hon. members know that the
government has not passed one piece of environmental legislation
of its own since taking power.
Why would the government ignore the species at risk working
group, which is a coalition of mining consortiums, woodlot
owners, farming communities and environmental NGOs? Why would
the government not accept the investment in time that those
groups have made? The Minister of the Environment has chosen to
ignore that particular initiative.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, I do not think
anything could be further from the truth. In fact, there are
some groups that would argue that the legislation for the
protection of species at risk is not strong enough. Given that
we have not yet seen it, I am not sure how anyone could make that
judgment.
The fact is that the work of that working group has concerned
itself with the needs of woodlot owners, agricultural producers
and so on, as well as the need to balance all of those interests
to produce legislation that will work in co-operation with the
federal government, the provincial governments and private
property owners. The work of the working group has very much
guided the development of the legislation.
Mr. Murray Calder (Dufferin—Peel—Wellington—Grey,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I was here in 1993 when the government
began to pick up the broken pieces that were left from the
government we replaced.
Mr. John Herron: Be gentle.
Mr. Murray Calder: I will, but I will be honest and
factual at the same time.
I am proud to be here now, when we are in an era of surpluses
and we can move forward to embrace the opportunities of the 21st
century.
First, I would like to talk about those early days. Many of my
colleagues were also here in 1993. They could tell the House
what it was like.
Seven years ago this country was at an economic low. Nine years
of the Mulroney government had played havoc with our federal
debt. Estimates indicated that within eight years the debt had
increased by $250 billion.
We were also left with a $42 billion deficit and we had to pay
33 cents of every revenue dollar to the interest on the debt.
This was not paying back the debt, it was just the interest on
the debt.
Unemployment was at 11.4% and high deficits and the resulting
pressure on interest rates had affected, adversely I may add,
economic growth and job creation. If this cycle had been allowed
to continue Canada would have been in very, very bad shape. It
may even have hit the New Zealand wall that everybody talks
about.
As a government we made some pretty tough comprises and
prioritized, down to the absolute detail I might add, and thought
about the sorts of things that were important to Canadians. With
the economy now gaining momentum and new jobs and opportunities
available to us we are optimistic and we are ready for the 21st
century.
A couple of months before the budget was announced I asked my
constituents what they thought these investments should look
like. The informal survey which I sent out asked them to list in
the order of priority where they would like to see budget dollars
spent. I received approximately 200 responses. The top three
priorities—
Mr. John Herron: HRDC, $1.2 billion?
Mr. Murray Calder: No, Mr. Speaker, the member is
absolutely wrong. The landslide was for tax reduction, health
care investments and debt reduction. That is what the survey
said.
Mr. John Herron: Where did the government put the HRDC
money then?
Mr. Murray Calder: Mr. Speaker, this is typical of the
Tories. They are just out of touch. That is the problem.
Important to my constituents also were environmental projects
and job initiatives. These priorities were right in line with
what the budget delivered. I cannot help but feel good about
this budget when its top priorities were the same top priorities
identified by my constituents.
1330
Budget 2000 has something for everybody. Let us take a look at
the tax cuts. Personal income taxes are being cut by an average
of 15%. For families with children, they are going to be cut by
21% over five years and middle class families will receive a
break of 23% from 26%. Restoring full indexation of the personal
income tax system, which is something that took everybody by
surprise, will end bracket creep caused by inflation. This means
that Canadians will be able to earn more tax free income and more
of their income will be taxed at a lower rate. It is a good
deal.
We are lowering taxes when the nation's finances allow us to do
so. These cuts have already been paid for through three
consecutive balanced budgets. I want to make perfectly clear
that we are not borrowing the money to pay for these cuts like
the Mike Harris government has been doing in Ontario.
To make strides in our economy it takes more than lowering
personal income tax. The budget will also help small businesses
in my riding and across the country by lowering their tax rates.
The budget also proposes to spur investment and encourage
entrepreneurship by lowering capital gains tax, by taxing stock
options only when the shares are sold, and by allowing a $500,000
tax free rollover for new ventures. It will also help by
increasing resources available through the community futures
program. This program delivers economic support to small and
rural communities in the form of mentoring services, business
counselling, training and loans.
As a sound investment the budget provides for health care and
quality of life for Canadians. Building on the 1999 health care
announcement, the budget increases the Canada health and social
transfer payments to the provinces and the territories by $2.5
billion for health care and education. This means that the CHST
will reach an all time high of almost $31 billion for the 2000-01
year.
In the last two years the federal cash support for health care
and education in Ontario increased by 24%. The government
provides transfers to health care in Ontario through cash and
through tax points under the Canada health and social transfer. I
want to stress a point that does not come out very often but
should. All contributions taken into consideration, the federal
government now provides in excess of 33 cents of every public
dollar spent by governments in Canada. My constituents want us
to continue our responsible fiscal management and to continue
paying down the debt.
As budget 2000 reports from 1997 to 1998 when the budget was
first balanced and through to 2000 to 2002, the growth in program
spending will be held roughly to the growth in population and
inflation. The unemployment rate is 4.5% lower than the 11.4%
the government inherited shortly after taking office in October
1993.
Over 1.8 million new jobs have been created since then. The
budget continues the principles under the debt repayment plan,
setting aside a $3 billion contingency reserve each year to
ensure a balanced budget. If we do not need the reserve it
automatically goes to debt repayment. Previous governments set
aside long term deficit targets that were never met. This
government's approach to budgeting is to set credible two year
rolling deficit targets. This means the government is held
accountable on a continuous basis.
There are many more important investments outlined in the budget
to make Canada more innovative such as in new technology and
leading edge research and innovation in research hospitals,
universities and the private sector. There are many supports for
the environmental initiatives of clean air, water and health
habitats. On the community level there are $25 million to help
municipalities and communities to determine best approaches
toward waste management, renewable energy, water conservation,
and the list goes on. There are $100 million in a revolving
fund, the green municipal investment fund, to support projects in
areas such as sustainable communities, urban transit, energy and
water savings, and the list goes on.
1335
People in my riding are very interested in protecting the
environment. With the headwaters of three rivers, the Credit,
the Humber and the Saugeen, plus the Grand River system and
Nottawasaga in my riding, they are very interested in initiatives
that can help in their protection. The creation of a new
sustainable development technology fund will help companies
develop new environmental technologies and bring them to market.
In another initiative, building on local efforts to preserve
natural habitats and species, the federal government is cutting
by half the capital gains tax arising from donations to
ecologically sensitive lands and will be providing $90 million
over three years to protect species at risk.
Other initiatives include increasing the tax exemption for
income from scholarships. That was one I pushed for. It has
been increased from $500 to $3,000. There will be $90 million
over three years to strengthen the government's ability to
regulate biotechnology products and processes, and $160 million
over two years so that federal government services will be
offered to Canadians on line.
There is also a proposal to work out a multi-year agreement with
the provinces and the private sector to improve highways and
municipal infrastructure, including green infrastructure and
affordable housing in urban and rural communities.
My constituents were happy with the budget. I have not to date
received one phone call complaining about the budget. I can
remember back in 1993 my fax machine going crazy. We could not
keep paper in it. There were no tax increases.
My constituents were afraid that we were going to be like the
previous government. We are not. Canadians are very comfortable
and very confident in the government's management of the country.
Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Mr. Speaker,
did the hon. member who just spoke so eloquently in the House
also inform his constituents that the GST and the NAFTA, which
the government was to get rid of, are still in place? Promises
were made by the 1993 Liberal government the member talked about,
but they were not kept.
Did the member tell his constituents that in 1993 there were
approximately $16.8 billion in health care, which in 1998 dropped
to $12.6 billion or a reduction of some $4.2 billion from 1993 to
1998? Did the hon. member tell his constituents that the reason
health care has such a problem right now is that the Liberals
took the money out of the budget in the first place? Did he tell
them that $2.5 billion which the government talked about in the
budget was over four years, and not $2.5 billion this year? Did
the member tell his constituents these facts before he sent out
the survey?
Mr. Murray Calder: Mr. Speaker, the short answer to that
question is yes, and they agreed with what we are doing.
The hon. member across the way talked about the GST. One of the
first things I told my constituents in the 1993 campaign was that
whatever we do with the GST it generates $18 billion worth of
revenue for the government, that the government needs that money,
and that if we do away with the tax we will run an extra $18
billion deficit.
In the last six and a half years the government has not only
solved these problems but are now in the black. The previous
government could not get its act together in this regard. The
short answer to his question is yes, my constituents knew about
all decisions the government was making and agreed with them,
because I am back here for a second term.
[Translation]
Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien (Frontenac—Mégantic, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
member for Dufferin—Peel—Wellington—Grey is a well known farmer,
but today I think his primary allegiance is to the Liberal
Party. His blinders prevent him from seeing that the Minister
of Finance's most recent budget sounds a death knell for
agriculture in Canada and in Quebec.
1340
In the past, his government cut assistance for Western grain
transportation and prices plummeted. When a country is unable to
feed its population, it is poor and depends on other countries.
How is it that this member, who raises primarily poultry, has
not spoken out in defence of farmers? He certainly did not
hesitate to stab his leader in the back.
[English]
Mr. Murray Calder: Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague across
the way used to sit on the standing committee on agriculture. He
has an agriculture background and should know better. Of course
I stand up for the interest of farmers. I was out west at least
three times last year. We worked hard to get an extra $240
million to western farmers.
The minister of agriculture just signed an agreement with the
provincial ministers on another long term program to support
agriculture in Canada. I do not know where the member across the
way has been living, but obviously he should sit down, read the
newspapers and read Hansard because he is missing a lot of
really good information on what is happening in agriculture.
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague from the Liberal
Party will have to let all of Canada decide in the next election
whether or not he will be returned.
The budget completely ignores defence and the replacement of the
Sea Kings, which in my riding is a very important issue. As well
it ignores a very vital issue in Atlantic Canada, a shipbuilding
policy which the Liberal caucus of Atlantic Canada said it wanted
included in the budget. Would the member respond to those two
issues, please?
Mr. Murray Calder: Mr. Speaker, I do not know where the
member across the way is coming from. He talks about a
shipbuilding program. We just finished building a brand new
fleet of Halifax class frigates. The Canadian navy is brand new
again. There are contracts already let out to replace the Sea
Kings. I believe that will happen next year. More money is
being put into defence as a result of this budget. I am not sure
where he is coming from, but he had better get his facts
straight.
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am
very glad to have an opportunity to take part in the budget
debate. I should say at the start that I will be splitting my
time with the member for Vancouver East.
I would like to make use of the time I have by pointing out not
only what the budget does but certainly what it fails to do and
how it affects my riding of Winnipeg Centre. I would like to
point out missed opportunities. I would like to point out where
the government has been out and out negligent and irresponsible
in not doing obvious things that needed to be done and choosing
as a priority to do things that were politically expedient and
politically to its advantage. I hope by these arguments, Mr.
Speaker, that you will be convinced as well that the government
missed a serious opportunity.
The reason I say it is a missed opportunity is that the Minister
of Finance started this process with a unique problem that we
have not seen in many years: a surplus budget, a budget that
could have been put to use to fix many of the social issues the
country is demanding be fixed in short order.
To get the basic premise, let us look at where the surplus came
from. The most obvious source from a working person's point of
view is the EI surplus. People seem to have forgotten about this
issue. The changes the government brought in to employment
insurance made it more difficult to qualify. Claimants could
collect for a shorter period of time and their weekly benefit
would be reduced. Obviously the government would have a surplus.
I do not think, even in its wildest dreams, the government would
have known it would enjoy a windfall of $700 million a month in
surplus, taken directly out of the pockets of unemployed workers,
the most vulnerable people arguably in our whole community. That
is $700 million a month, not a year. That is staggering. We can
see, as I have said before, it is a perverted sort of Robin Hood
to rob from the poor and give to the rich in the form of tax
cuts. We should be well aware of that before we go into the main
arguments.
1345
The government stumbled upon another windfall. It was a very
calculated and cynical move which will have repercussions for
every pension plan across the country. It took the surplus from
the public service plan away from the beneficiaries of the public
service pension plan. The government did not steal it, but it
took it right out of that plan to use for whatever it wanted in
its general revenue. I predict the government will pay the
political price for taking those surplus revenues out of that
pension plan.
We noticed the minister responsible for the Treasury Board had
no sooner done his dastardly deed than he had to leave this
place. There was no way politically he could survive taking $30
billion of surplus out of the public service pension plan, money
that should have gone to improve the pensions of those
beneficiaries. That is the second source of revenue.
It was not real sound fiscal management that led to the surplus.
It was the finding of these buckets of money, stumbling across
these buckets of dough. Anybody could do that.
The Liberals failed to listen to Canadians in the prebudget
consultation. They did tour the country to listen to Canadians.
Invariably everywhere government members went, Canadians told
them they wanted one thing done and one thing only. They wanted
the health care system fixed once and for all. There was no
question. There was no debate about it. The number one priority
was to fix our health care system.
What did we see done, even though the government had the
astronomical windfall of a surplus? The government is giving
$2.5 billion, not per year but over four years. And it is not
just for my province of Manitoba. It is for the whole country.
My province of Manitoba's share will be about $20 million a year,
or enough to keep the hospitals open for two days.
The great renewal of spending on health care amounts to two days
budgeting for the province of Manitoba. It is so small that it
is almost insignificant. It is offensive frankly. It leads to
greater cynicism in the electorate because they were consulted.
They said what they needed and the government did not listen to
them. Instead, what did the government choose to do? It chose to
use the money, which as I pointed out it took from unemployed
workers to a large degree, for tax cuts for the wealthy.
For every dollar in tax cuts that is given back into the system,
two cents goes for health care. How is that for skewed
priorities? Yet when Canadians were asked, tax cuts ranked
number seven, eight or nine on their list of priorities. They
wanted their health care system back. They wanted post-secondary
education addressed so their kids would not have to graduate with
a small mortgage. They wanted all these issues fixed.
Canadians wanted something done about child poverty. I should
not have to remind members, especially those who have been here
for any length of time, that in 1989 it was members of parliament
who passed a unanimous resolution to eliminate child poverty by
the year 2000. For the first time since 1989, we are in a
financial position to that, yet no effort has been made to do so.
Again, I point to a failure on the part of the government
because the opportunity was there and it chose not to act.
Dante reserved a special depth of his hell for those who had the
ability to prevent evil and chose not to. That was the lowest
depth of Dante's inferno. Just as obnoxious and just as foul to
me as those who had the ability to do something noble and
honourable and elected not to is the failure of the people in
this place.
I can point to another obvious shortcoming in that those people
over there cut, hacked and slashed programs for many, many years
without looking for other sources of revenue or for ways to
preclude the need to do that, or what they thought was the need.
Without being vague about it, I will point to one obvious thing
they could have done.
I introduced a motion that was passed in the House of Commons a
year ago to energy retrofit all of our publicly owned buildings.
The federal government owns 50,000 buildings. It spends billions
of dollars a year in energy costs. Many of those buildings are
outdated, obsolete and are absolute energy hogs. They waste
energy and they pollute.
If we undertook a serious initiative to energy retrofit all our
publicly owned buildings, we would not only create thousands of
jobs, we would reduce our operating costs by as much as $1
billion a year. We would also reduce harmful greenhouse gas
emissions as per our obligations under the Kyoto convention.
1350
Again it was a missed opportunity because it seems that side of
the House is devoid of ideas. That side is out of gas in terms
of creative things to do.
Members on that side of the House voted in favour of that motion
because they thought it was a really good idea. That was a year
and a half ago. They have not done diddley-squat in that regard.
They could be the example. They should set the example for the
private sector to do the same. In this northern climate we should
show the world how we can conserve energy and how we can use our
precious energy resources in a wiser way, a way that works for us
instead of being the victims of some international oil cartel. It
was another missed opportunity.
The finest achievement any government can aspire to is to
elevate the standard of the living conditions of the people it
represents. That should be the goal. That is why we are here.
If we can only keep our eyes on the ball, our job and goal should
be to elevate the standard of the living conditions of the people
we represent. If we did not deviate from that, we would not have
so much confusion in terms of what we should do. Let us do what
is right in a way that would really move society forward.
A basic tenet and truth is that society does not move forward
until we all move forward together. If we leave a significant
number of people behind, we do not really move forward. Freedom
is only privilege extended unless it is enjoyed by all people.
That is a basic tenet that we must adhere to.
The motion to eliminate child poverty by the year 2000 was one
of the most significant things ever agreed upon in the House of
Commons. Governments to this point through mismanagement by the
Tories et cetera did find themselves in a disastrous financial
situation, but in recent years money is no longer an excuse. If
money is not an issue, what does that lead us to believe? That
the government just does not care about that subject. Money is
not a barrier. Money is not an obstacle. The government has
barrels of money. It has money coming out of its ears.
I believe that a society shall be judged not by the might of its
cities, not by the grandeur of its statues and not by the power
of its armies. A society will be judged by how it treats its
most vulnerable people: the unemployed, the disenfranchised, the
poverty stricken.
When all the dust settles and all of us are in our graves,
society will judge this piece of history by what steps we took to
move that part of society forward. The budget does nothing to
move society forward as a whole. We do not move forward unless we
all move forward together. We are not moving forward at all when
the gap between the rich and the poor grows ever wider and wider.
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I cannot help but be somewhat concerned when I hear the
kind of talk I have just heard, things like oodles of money and
scads of money.
That is exactly the kind of thinking that got us into a
situation where we were dependent upon foreign borrowing to pay
for our entire health care system and our entire public pension
system just seven years ago. That is exactly the kind of thinking
that would have destroyed those systems had something like the
Asian crisis happened before we started getting our deficit under
control.
I take issue with the member's statement that the government has
not done what needs to be done for society. He has to
acknowledge that once there was a surplus budget the first thing
the government did was put money back into health care, back into
post-secondary education, back into all those things to create a
strong and healthy society.
These two budgets have increased spending in those areas by 25%.
Health care and education are the foundations of a strong
society. Those areas of spending are now higher in actual
dollars than when we took office. I would like the hon. member
to respond to that.
1355
Mr. Pat Martin: Mr. Speaker, back in 1995 the CHST when
it was created was $19 billion a year. The Liberal government
brought it down to $11.5 billion per year and is slowly
incrementally jacking it back up. It went to $12.5 billion. In
this budget it is supposed to go to $14.5 billion and even $15
billion. That is still $4 billion less in actual spending than
it was before.
The government cannot use smoke and mirrors forever. Canadians
do not believe it and they frankly do not accept this stuff about
transferring tax points. They want cash on the barrelhead. They
want to see the federal government's actual participation in
health, social spending and post-secondary education. Those are
the priorities we heard about when we consulted with Canadians.
That is what they told us. They wanted the government to use
this budget to fix health care, to stop the crisis in
post-secondary education tuitions and to do something about
social spending to elevate the standard of living for all
Canadians. If that is not our goal, I do not know what is.
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for
Winnipeg Centre for his remarks today.
I would like him to elaborate a moment longer on his private
member's motion in terms of the energy retrofit of those 50,000
government buildings. This is one of the better ideas I have
ever come across in the House. Both sides of the House passed
that motion. What has the government done after one year? What
is it doing to create jobs and reduce our dependency on fossil
fuels?
Mr. Pat Martin: Mr. Speaker, I am very glad to elaborate
on this subject.
Motion No. 300 passed with a great majority in the House of
Commons. The concept was that we can create jobs, reduce
operating costs in publicly owned buildings and reduce harmful
greenhouse gas emissions, all at no cost to the taxpayer because
the private sector is willing to finance those jobs and be paid
back slowly out of the energy savings. In other words, it is off
balance sheet financing that we could use to finance this
project.
There are 50,000 federally owned public buildings in the
country. Only about 100 have had significant energy retrofitting
done to them. Even at a 1,000 per year, it would take 50 years
to finish the project.
We want to see the government, now that the motion has passed,
to exercise this and expand the program so that all federally
owned public buildings are retrofitted so that they are
completely energy efficient and do not belch out harmful
greenhouse gas emissions as they do today.
The Speaker: It is almost 2 o'clock so we will go to
statements by members.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
TOBACCO INDUSTRY
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, in light of the damage to the health of Canadians caused
by tobacco products, I have introduced in the House a motion
calling upon all Canadian parliamentarians and political parties
to refrain from accepting political contributions from the
tobacco industry. By refraining from accepting tobacco profits
as political contributions, we as politicians are setting an
example for all Canadians, youth included.
I urge my fellow parliamentarians to join me in saying no to
tobacco profits as political contributions.
* * *
LEADER OF THE OFFICIAL OPPOSITION
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, today is very special and humbling for me because I
have been given a great opportunity to serve the House and the
people of Canada as the Leader of the Official Opposition on an
interim basis. Now I can fire away directly across from the
Prime Minister.
I want to thank God for blessing me with so many surprises in my
life and my career. I want to thank my husband Lew for his
wonderful unconditional love and support. I would like to thank
my family who have been there with me all along. I would like to
thank my colleagues in the Reform Party and now the Canadian
Alliance. I would like to thank the entire House of Commons.
Today I want to thank the man whose inspiring vision has
influenced the national Canadian agenda for the last 13 years.
His tireless effort and servant leadership has built a political
reform movement that for the first time in history stands poised
to make the transition from third party to opposition to
government. I stand today in his place to say that I will do my
best to carry on the work of my friend and colleague, the member
for Calgary Southwest.
* * *
1400
GAS PRICES
Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
congratulate the Liberal caucus on obtaining an independent
review of gas prices by the Conference Board of Canada.
The huge rise in gas, diesel and fuel prices has made us realize
how dependent we are on a few countries and a few companies. Let
us use this opportunity to boost public transportation. Let us
give tax breaks for public transit passes. Let us assist the
municipalities and the private sector in promoting public
transportation.
At the same time, let us continue to assist in the development
of alternatives to oil and gas. Natural gas heating should be
extended. Projects, such as the Ballard fuel cell, which
received support in the budget, should be encouraged in every
possible way. Let us do even more to support our ethanol plants.
Let us use the crisis of high fuel prices to reduce our
dependence on oil.
* * *
BLOOD DONOR MONTH
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I want
to call attention to the problem of recurring blood shortages in
communities across Canada. The challenge is for Canadians to get
involved by rolling up their sleeves.
March is Blood Donor Month, and I rise to ask my fellow
Canadians and my colleagues in the House of Commons to give blood
with generosity.
To meet the demand, Blood Services Canada needs more donors. By
becoming a regular blood donor, communities would no longer be
faced with critical shortfalls in blood levels and lives would be
saved.
Together we can make a difference. I call on all Canadians to
accept the challenge and this March become a regular blood donor
and give someone else the gift of life.
* * *
[Translation]
NUNAVIK INUIT
Mr. Guy St-Julien (Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the president of the Makivik Corporation, Pita Aatami,
was right when he said in 1998 that the solution to the problem
of the Inuit in Nunavik lay more than ever in team work.
This was the approach that Mr. Aatami took with the Government
of Canada in developing Nunavik along with the governors, the
board of directors of Makivik Corporation, the mayors and
councillors of each community, and Nunavik's organizations, in
order to help the Inuit lay the foundation for a future adapted
to the new realities but rooted in their own cultural values.
Since being elected president of Makivik Corporation, Mr. Aatami
has made sure the Government of Canada is aware of the Inuit's
real priorities: housing, marine infrastructure, health, jobs,
taxation, Nav Canada rates, telecommunications, the future of
young people, and air transportation.
This is how our Inuit friends in Nunavik have been working with
the Government of Canada.
* * *
[English]
THE LATE HAMED NASTOH
Mr. Chuck Cadman (Surrey North, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, on March 11, 14 year old Hamed Nastoh left a note for
his parents, climbed onto the Pattullo Bridge and jumped to his
death in the Fraser River; the final desperate act of a teenager
who saw no other way out.
There was no escape from the constant taunting, teasing and
bullying at the hands of fellow students. He was violently
punched at least once, yet he said little, if anything, of his
torment.
Bullying usually brings to mind images of children in shoving
matches. At the junior and high school levels, what is commonly
referred to as bullying is nothing less than criminal harassment
and assault. It must not be tolerated.
Bullies survive through intimidation. They thrive on fear, the
victim's fear to come forward. When victims do muster the
courage to speak out, there is usually very little by way of
consequence to the perpetrator, who then feels even more
empowered to escalate the harassment. The victim usually moves
to another school and the bully finds a new victim.
Hamed's death was preventable. I plead with young people to
speak up. I beg of parents to listen and watch for the signs. I
demand of educators to identify and remove the predators.
* * *
[Translation]
CANADIAN FILM INDUSTRY
Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
Canadian film industry is a key player on the international
scene.
We have every reason to be proud of our creative energy, which
is used to show the Canadian heritage on screens all over the
world.
The federal government supports Canadian talent. It has
established various audiovisual support programs to promote
growth in that sector.
Among others, the Canadian television fund allocates $200 million
annually for the production of Canadian television programs. As
for Telefilm Canada, it provides in excess of $35 million for
feature film production.
Canadian artists can also get tax credits to help them complete
audio-visual projects. In 1997-98, these credits totalled
$21 million.
These are all means by which the Canadian government contributes
to the quality of the cultural life in Canada and in Quebec.
* * *
[English]
DRAMA AWARDS
Mr. John Finlay (Oxford, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, three Oxford
county community theatres took home honours in the Western
Ontario Drama League pre-festival awards earlier this month.
The Thistle Theatre in Embro brought home three prizes. These
recognized the work of Terry Todd for outstanding direction,
Jocelyn Rioux for best actress and Jim Harrison for best
supporting actor in the Thistle Theatre's production of
1949.
1405
The W.O.D.L. also recognized the outstanding performance of Tony
Harding as Phil Moss in the Woodstock Little Theatre's The
Motor Trade.
Two special awards of merit were given to Theatre Tillsonburg in
recognition of Penny Durst's set and costume execution and Stacey
Tricket's research design of women's hair.
In one of my past lives I was a member of the Woodstock Little
Theatre and know the value of community theatre. The hard work
and commitment of everyone involved with these productions is to
be commended, especially those recognized by their colleagues for
outstanding work.
* * *
[Translation]
WORLD THEATRE DAY
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, today is World
Theatre Day.
After Jean Cocteau, Arthur Miller, Pablo Neruda and Vaclav
Havel, it is now Quebec playwright and fiction writer Michel
Tremblay's turn to write the international message marking World
Theatre Day.
In his text, Michel Tremblay ponders on the role of theatre in
this era of globalization by saying:
For the universality of a dramatic text is not to be found in
the place in which it was written, but in its humanity, in the
relevance of its statements and in the beauty of its structure.
Writers are not more universal because they are writing in Paris
or New York rather than in Chicoutimi or Port-au-Prince.
The message written by Michel Tremblay will be read in thousands
of theatres all over the world. For those who will not have the
chance to be in a theatre this evening or tomorrow, the text of
the declaration is available in some 20 languages on the site of
the International Theatre Institute, which is under the aegis of
UNESCO.
Happy World Theatre Day.
* * *
[English]
CANADIAN ALLIANCE
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, the race is on. It is an exciting time to be in
Canadian politics. The people of Canada are saying that they are
ready for a clear alternative to the ruling Liberals. They want
fiscal responsibility, social responsibility, democratic
accountability and new federalism.
I believe the Canadian Alliance, which became a reality on March
25, reflects that desire. We will know for sure when the people
oust the unprincipled Liberals and vote for the Canadian Alliance
at the next federal election.
The leadership candidates of the Canadian Alliance listen to the
people. They understand and accept what Canadians are saying.
They understand and accept the Alliance's constitution and
declaration of policy as the voice of the people.
With the Canadian Alliance as an alternative, voters will be
ready to deliver a fatal blow to the status quo and embrace a new
vital democracy.
* * *
[Translation]
ARTS AND CULTURE
Ms. Raymonde Folco (Laval West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, last night
was the time for cultural awards.
First of all, I must congratulate the artists receiving awards
and honourable mentions at the Métrostar gala. During the gala,
a touching and well-deserved tribute was paid to Gilles
Latulippe, who has made the decision to retire after 33 years.
There was another memorable event, the film Oscars, where Canada
was honoured. A Canadian production by the National Film Board,
“The Old Man and the Sea”, and Quebecer François Girard's “The
Red Violin”, also received awards.
Although all of this recognition and presentation of awards
takes place in glamorous surroundings, let us remember that
anyone wishing to make artistic and creative endeavours his or
her career often faces a huge struggle.
Culture transcends borders. Each artistic endeavour is one more
manifestation of the freedom of expression and creativity whose
objective is the full realization of a society.
* * *
[English]
HEPATITIS C
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, it has been two years since the government promised
compensation to some of the victims who contracted hepatitis C
through tainted blood. Not a penny of that money has even been
received. More victims have died and others have seen their
expenses and worries rise as their illness has worsened.
Any relief felt two years ago has turned into bitter
disappointment and cynicism. Lawyers are getting paid.
Bureaucrats are being hired. One victim has said that settling
this issue has become a growth industry.
Meanwhile, some innocent victims must live without even the
promise of compensation because the government chose the path of
least compassion two years ago and excluded them from the
settlement.
Before the health minister heads off to start a new project with
health ministers this week, he has some unfinished business to
deal with. Canadians want to see full and equal compensation for
all those who acquired hepatitis C from tainted blood.
Will the health minister not retrace his steps—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Etobicoke—Lakeshore.
* * *
1410
WORLD TUBERCULOSIS DAY
Ms. Jean Augustine (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, Friday, March 24 was World Tuberculosis Day. The World
Health Organization has declared tuberculosis to be a global
emergency.
Tuberculosis is killing more people today than ever before. It
knows no borders and no one is immune from being afflicted with
TB. One-third of the world's population, that is 2 billion
people, is estimated to be infected by tuberculosis. The yearly
deaths attributed to TB are 2 million. It is greatest among
young women and individuals with AIDS, Canada's aboriginal
community, the homeless and others who have come into contact
with TB through various ways.
TB can be controlled and prevented with the use of Directly
Observed Treatment.
I call upon all of us to work with our international partners in
health to support the DOTS program and make the prevention of TB
a high priority on the public health agenda.
* * *
[Translation]
HEPATITIS C
Ms. Diane St-Jacques (Shefford, PC): Mr. Speaker, today is the
second anniversary of the announcement of the agreement
concluded between the government and the victims of Hepatitis C.
It is discouraging to realize that two years have passed and
the government has still not paid these sick people.
The people of this country are fed up. They want the government
to act and to pay out the promised compensation. The lawyers
have had their money, but the victims are still waiting.
Victims continue to die without ever laying their hands on a
single compensation cheque, and their numbers are ever
increasing.
It is obvious that Canadians find this government's inertia
shocking. I am therefore demanding that it face up to its
responsibilities, respect its commitments, and get the cheques
out immediately to the Hepatitis C victims.
* * *
[English]
CANADIAN AID FOR CHERNOBYL
Mr. Joe Jordan (Leeds—Grenville, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Canadian Aid for Chernobyl, a foundation based in Brockville,
Ontario, is currently working on the logistics of shipping over
$1.4 million worth of medical supplies to Belarus. The shipment
will include a refurbished ambulance that will be driven by Dan
Smith and Jeff Earle from the British Isles to Belarus. Their
exploits will be closely followed by about 20 schools in the
riding that will track the vehicle through a satellite linkage
through the Internet.
This ongoing endeavour is locally funded and supported by
individuals and businesses throughout Leeds—Grenville and is one
more reason I am so proud to represent and serve these people in
the Parliament of Canada.
* * *
[Translation]
QUIET REVOLUTION
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, this
coming weekend, the University of Quebec in Montreal will be
organizing a major forum on the quiet revolution, forty years
on.
Many researchers and political players will be analyzing the
various aspects of what are now being called the achievements of
the quiet revolution. A revolution described by Frère Untel as
“an enormous collective and largely positive adventure”.
The achievements include, according to economist Pierre Fortin,
of the Canadian Institute for Advanced Research, faster
improvement in the standard of living in Quebec than in Ontario
over the past 40 years. It pays to be “maîtres chez nous”.
A more striking and important element is that “young Quebecers
are”, according to Professor Fortin, “among the world's most
educated. International investigations—confirm that the
quality of Quebec's system of education puts it among the world
leaders as well”.
It seems obvious to me that it pays to be “maîtres chez nous”.
I believe that sovereignty will provide even greater rewards.
* * *
[English]
HEPATITIS C
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
today is the second anniversary of the decision of the Government
of Canada to ram through a compensation package for hepatitis C
victims that was mean, non-inclusive and just plain wrong.
Here we are today and the tragedy continues. Thousands of
hepatitis C victims were excluded from compensation. Tragically,
even those Canadians who were meant to receive compensation are
still waiting. Not one penny has gone to those victims. In my
community of Vancouver East in the downtown east side, people are
dying with hepatitis C because they are still waiting for help.
We all want to know from this government and from this Minister
of Health how many people have died since that decision? Does
the health minister even care about what has happened? How can
this government, in all good conscience, live with its terrible
decision? Will it do the right thing now and extend compensation
to all victims with hepatitis C? Will it do that?
* * *
HEROISM
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the House to applaud the bravery
and remember the young lives of two Calgary students who are now
assumed dead after trying to save a drowning women off the coast
of California.
David Elton and Brodi McDonald, both 17, jumped into the ocean
off Black Sands Beach about 200 kilometres north of San Francisco
to save Barbara Clement.
The Calgary woman had been swept into the sea by a large wave.
1415
David and Brodi both attended William Aberhart School. These
youths represent the courage and desire to help others in need,
which has been a longstanding national characteristic of
Canadians.
Our hearts go out this afternoon to the families of the loved
ones of everyone affected by this tragedy. May the selfless
determination and heroism of these young men be remembered.
* * *
HEALTH CARE
Mr. Norman Doyle (St. John's East, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
federal Liberals say that money is not the main problem behind
the health care crisis in Canada. Money may not be the only
problem, but it is certainly the biggest problem.
In 1994-95 my province of Newfoundland received $425 million in
cash transfers for health and post-secondary education. In this
year's federal budget it will receive only $271 million. Twenty
years ago federal transfers paid 50% of Newfoundland's health
care costs. Today the federal government pays less than 15%.
That sounds like a money problem to me.
It is time for the Liberals to stop playing politics with health
care and start using their budget surplus to pay for the health
care system that Canadians need and want.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AGENCY
Miss Deborah Grey (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce a new birth.
The Canadian Alliance was born this weekend. It weighed in at
91.9. The new extended family is very excited and mama is back
at work already.
During this birth three more internal audits were uncovered,
this time at the Canada Economic Development Agency. It sounds
like a rerun of the HRD minister's list of greatest hits;
favourites like lack of compliance, flexibility and insufficient
management.
Is it that this government has no idea of how to manage tax
dollars, or is it that it just cannot resist a good old fashion
boondoggle?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, some days I cannot resist offering my congratulations to
my fifth Leader of the Opposition in six years. With respect to
the changing of the name, as I said, Coca Cola tried that some
years ago, without much success. It might be that the job of the
Leader of the Opposition will be quite temporary if there is to
be a sixth one by June.
The last time we changed our name was in 1867. We would not
need that sort of thing to remain in opposition.
I want to reply to the question of the hon. member by saying
that the auditor general has been asked to report four times a
year to make sure that if we have problems of that nature they
can be corrected immediately.
Miss Deborah Grey (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, it could be that the next Leader of
the Opposition might be him, but it is hard to say.
There was an internal audit done and the results were damning.
It stated “Our audit revealed a lack of compliance with
criteria and with departmental policies”. The number one
recommendation was “The minister should define the terms that
leave room for interpretation”. In other words, close the
loopholes so the Liberals cannot get their paws on it and dish
out the cash.
A follow-up audit was done nearly a year later. No matter how
many audits come out, the results seem to be the same. The
response is “insufficient”. Was the prospect of millions more
in slush money just too easy to keep their hands off?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we have debated these problems and this issue for a long
time. I want to report that on the TJF/CJF allocation of money,
more money went to opposition ridings than to government ridings.
We are applying the criteria. When there are opposition ridings
that have more unemployment than the average of the nation we
treat them exactly the same as we treat members' ridings on this
side.
Miss Deborah Grey (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister is talking about
HRDC. Certainly there are problems there. But we are talking
about problems today in CEDA. Even after the government got
caught, even after it was told to clean up its act, it continued,
without a care in the world.
1420
The final audit was released in March 1999. Its findings stated
“The overall file management situation has been appreciably the
same”. That is not going, no matter how many audits they come
up with.
There is only one conclusion to come to, and that is that the
Liberals like it this way. Why will they not fix the problem
that sees millions of taxpayer dollars being wasted every year?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, if there are problems of this nature I know that the
minister will make sure the problems are corrected immediately.
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, we see another coincidence here. Once again the
government waited until the official opposition made an access
request before it released the results of this damning internal
audit. It sat on the latest one for over a year.
CEDA spends more than $300 million a year, so I can see why it
wanted to keep those audits hidden. But audits are supposed to
cause the government and the department to act. They are
supposed to cause the government to fix the problems. But after
three audits the quote in the document once again is “The
situation has been—the same”.
If the results of these audits are so bad that they have to be
hidden, why are they not bad enough for the government to fix
them?
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of National Revenue and
Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the
Regions of Quebec), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we simply do not know
if they are talking about the Economic Development Agency of
Canada, but if that is the case, I am pleased to report that
since 1994 we have modified our program. We are managing two
programs in economic development and we are getting involved in
the economic development of all regions of the province of
Quebec.
I am also pleased to report that we are working in close
co-operation with the auditor general. We have internal audits
on a yearly basis. We are monitoring the situation properly.
As well, I would like to focus on the fact that our programs are
now ISO-9002.
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, it is exactly these audits, this monitoring, that we are
talking about. Three successive audits in a row have come to the
same conclusion. The problem is still systemic and it is still
in this department. They have not fixed a thing.
This raises the questions: Why does it take access to
information requests to get the government to release audits to
begin with? Why has the Minister of Human Resources Development
withheld 30 separate access to information requests from the
official opposition, in contravention of the access act? Why has
the minister in charge of the Canada Economic Development Agency
ignored his own internal audits which say that he has lost
control of departmental spending under his control?
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of National Revenue and
Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the
Regions of Quebec), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I simply do not know
exactly where the members are going. I guess it must be part of
their dream.
On a yearly basis the Economic Development Agency has internal
audits. We keep focusing on the reports. We are monitoring the
situation in a very proper manner.
We have been involved in economic development for quite some
time. We are pleased with the results we have provided people.
We will keep working on the economic development of the region.
We will keep working to ensure that we continue to create jobs
across Canada.
* * *
[Translation]
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, since
we started asking questions about Placeteco, the Minister of
Human Resources Development has been unable to respond.
Furthermore, the auditor general tells us that only a police
investigation will reveal any political interference. Finally,
the papers are talking about corruption in connection with what
has been going on at Department of Human Resources Development.
With a situation of such disastrous proportions, is it not time
the Prime Minister understood that he must call a police
investigation, ask the police to act as quickly as possible to
bring this situation fully to light?
[English]
Ms. Bonnie Brown (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Human Resources Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we are
having a display of people taking items out of context in what
the auditor general said. He actually said that he believed the
six point plan was a very thorough plan for corrective action.
As we conduct our own audit in HRDC we intend to assess the
department's progress in implementing this plan.
As for the police, he did not say that was the only way to get
to the bottom of the problem. They are misquoting him again.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I
think she should have read the report, but that is too much to
ask of her.
In the case of CITEC, a police investigation was initiated
within 24 hours of the facts' coming to light. Despite the many
revelations in the Placeteco matter, no investigation has been
called.
1425
Are we to understand that the reticence of the Prime Minister to
initiate a police investigation into the Placeteco matter is
directly related to the fact that too many of his friends are
involved, very intimately so, and very closely to the Prime
Minister?
The Speaker: We are very close to ascribing motives. I will ask
members to choose their words very carefully.
[English]
Ms. Bonnie Brown (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Human Resources Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the answer
is no.
The reason we have not called for a police investigation is
because there would be preliminary steps taken before that. The
first one would be the need to establish an overpayment. We have
been through the invoices and the receipts. They match the funds
we have given. Therefore there is no need to establish an
overpayment.
Without an overpayment we would not even order a forensic audit,
much less call the police. The idea is nonsense.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, at the
beginning of the whole scandal at Human Resources Development
Canada, the Prime Minister told us that there were problems with
only 37 files, that the moneys involved did not exceed $250 and
that this really was a minor issue.
Today, we realize, particularly as regards Placeteco, that the
amounts involved are much larger than that.
Can the Prime Minister tell us why he still refuses to order an
investigation into this file? Is it because the people involved
are close friends of the Prime Minister? Is he concerned about
his leadership? What is the problem?
[English]
Ms. Bonnie Brown (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Human Resources Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I do not
know how many times we have to repeat the same thing.
There has to be a basis upon which to call for a police
investigation. Our review of this file suggests there is no
basis. We cannot go out on a limb, calling for police for no
reason. That would be ridiculous.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, how can the
parliamentary secretary say there is no basis for calling for an
investigation, considering that some people are involved in a
number of capacities, that we are talking about an amount of
$1.2 million, that no one in the government can explain where
that money went and that there were privileged contacts between
certain people and the National Bank?
This file does not make sense. The more we get answers, the less
clear things become. An investigation would be in order for much
less than that. The Prime Minister was quicker on the draw in
the case of CITEC.
[English]
Ms. Bonnie Brown (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Human Resources Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, again the
member is making allegations. If he wants to make allegations he
should bring them forward.
Our evidence suggests that there is absolutely no basis for a
police investigation. If he wants to make allegations, let him
do that and we will investigate.
* * *
HEALTH
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
Prime Minister went to Calgary. He met with the premier, and he
blinked.
According to the auditor general, even before the federal
government cash transfers for health, the government has never
taken action to protect the five principles of medicare.
Let me quote: “Health Canada does not have the information it
needs to monitor compliance with the act. The only departmental
evaluation undertaken was limited, and it was five years before
its results were reported to parliament”.
How can this government protect the five principles of the
Canada Health Act with its eyes wide shut?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I was extremely clear with the premier. I said that he
would have to respect the five conditions of medicare. He said
that he would like to respect them and he does not want to break
them. We will see how he operates, but we have done it to him
once and we will have to do it twice if he does not respect them.
We had a problem of the same nature with the NDP government of
B.C. It blinked, not us, because it had to accept our
conditions. Otherwise money would have been cut in the transfer
for social programs.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, first
the federal government cut the cash transfers for health. Then
it is a wink and a nod with Ralph Klein and everything is
supposed to be fine.
Everything is not fine. Everything is not fine for patients who
find they have to pay up to $4,000 for routine eye surgery.
1430
Why should Canadians believe that the government will protect
the five principles of the Canada Health Act when the auditor
general says that it will not?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we have done it once. In one of the big arguments of
Premier Klein he gave me the list and said he would like to do in
Alberta what the socialist governments of B.C., Saskatchewan and
Manitoba are doing.
I said to him that if they break the five conditions they will
have to comply the same way as anybody. If anyone breaks the
five conditions of medicare, we will cut the cash transfers to
them.
* * *
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, we have received information indicating that the
RCMP have been contacted and may be investigating an organization
called Advanced Career Training Institute, a computer school, for
alleged misuse of HRDC money.
The minister spoke of the basis for investigation. Will the
minister for HRDC now confirm that ACTI has received government
money and is currently being investigated for potentially
criminal acts?
Ms. Bonnie Brown (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Human Resources Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it surprises
me that a former crown attorney would ask questions of this sort.
It is totally inappropriate for us to comment on details of any
particular case because it is up to the police to comment on
their own investigations.
As part of the six point action plan all project files are being
reviewed by officials, overpayments will be collected, and any
wrongdoings will be referred to the police. Certainly I do not
want to be a party to getting in the way of the police.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, it surprises me that a former teacher could not give
a straight answer to a straight question.
In December 1998 students of ACTI complained to a Liberal member
from Kitchener Centre that there were no graduates, no qualified
instructors and no classes at that school. In a letter to that
member the student was told that there was no problem, the school
was exemplary and it served its participants and taxpayers well.
Was the complaint to the minister acted upon, or was it even
forwarded to the minister?
Ms. Bonnie Brown (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Human Resources Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I can assure
the House that the number of ongoing police investigations this
year is consistent with the number of investigations over past
years.
Several of the current investigations have been ongoing for
quite some time, certainly prior to the release of the audit. As
soon as any irregularities are identified, appropriate action is
taken in accordance with guidelines.
In many of the cases HRDC initiated the referrals to the RCMP,
but not in all cases. I would suggest that if the member has
questions about police investigations he ask the police.
* * *
ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AGENCY
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, an internal audit faulted Economic Development Canada's
management of its small business program on the same broken rules
that we have come to expect from the Liberal government.
What did the auditors find? They found that the program was too
flexible. It was not applied uniformly across the province.
There was a lack of compliance with eligibility requirements and
a deficient economic analysis of the firms and regions receiving
funding. Do we now have Industry Canada adopting HRDC's
management style?
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of National Revenue and
Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the
Regions of Quebec), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to
report that with program review we have decided to establish in
Canadian Economic Development two main programs to get involved
in the economic development of the regions.
I am pleased to report as well that on a yearly basis we are
working with internal audits. We are monitoring the situation
and so far it goes very well because of the experience and
expertise we have within the department.
Members on the other side must not be very pleased with that
because based on their platform in 1993 they would have destroyed
all the tools given to the Canadian government in order to get
involved in the economic development of the regions. They are
Reformers, former Reformers. Let me tell—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Peace River.
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, the minister is monitoring but he has not read any of
the audits. What kind of monitoring is that?
What is clear is that the sloppy management style of the Liberal
government does not stop at HRDC. It is across all government
departments. Despite two years for Industry Canada to clean up
this mess, a follow-up audit in 1999 said that it still lacked
compliance. Why is that? Will the minister tell us how many
more audits exist within his department that deal with
mismanagement in grants and contributions?
1435
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of National Revenue and
Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the
Regions of Quebec), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, whenever an internal
audit or the auditor general himself has something, we sit with
him and have a look at the situation. We make sure we make
improvements as well because we care about the management of the
public funds we are managing.
The main concern of members on the other side is not the
question of management. Their main problem is that in 1993 they
would have destroyed all the industry department. They would
have destroyed all economic development area agencies.
Now what they dislike very much is the results we have from
getting involved and working with the regions, in partnership
with the regions. The results are amazing. I am going to keep—
The Speaker: The hon. member for
Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans.
* * *
[Translation]
BILLBOARDS
Mr. Michel Guimond
(Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
in the very controversial issue of Mediacom billboards in the
Montreal region, the Minister of Transport has stated that he
will proceed and that the advertising will comply with the law.
How can the minister go against the advice of the Quebec
Ministry of Transport, of the City of Montreal and of the
Government of Quebec on highway safety?
[English]
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, we believe that the paramount issue here is road
safety. These signs were erected to assist drivers in the
Montreal area coming across very crowded bridges each day.
There were consultations with provincial authorities before the
signs were erected. We believe they fully comply with the spirit
of the law. Certainly we believe they will be of great benefit
to motorists in the Montreal area.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Guimond
(Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
the minister refers to consultations. This government constantly
talks about flexible federalism, a system able to co-operate with
the provinces.
How can the minister convince us of the so-called flexibility of
the federal system when it cannot even agree along on an issue
as simple as billboards?
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I should point out that the federal government has
exclusive jurisdiction over building billboards on bridges.
Decisions were made in the best interests of motorists in the
Montreal region.
* * *
[English]
ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AGENCY
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, we now know that mismanagement of
public funds is not isolated to the HRDC department. In fact
similar vote creation schemes were reported in Economic
Development Canada audits as far back as 1997. The same litany
of incompetence as HRDC, only three years earlier. Why is it
that every time we uncover an internal audit we find more
examples of Liberal incompetence?
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of National Revenue and
Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the
Regions of Quebec), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to
report again that we have internal audits on a yearly basis. As
well the auditor general gets involved.
I am pleased to report as well that back in 1997, if we look at
the report of the auditor general, he told us that indeed there
was major improvement in our programming and the management of
the funds. I am also pleased to report that we make the
difference in all the regions across the province of Quebec.
I am pleased to say as well that as long as I am there, I will
do my work, my job, and get involved in the economic development
of the regions. Of course members on the other side do not
believe in economic development of the regions, but this is
Liberal—
The Speaker: The hon. opposition whip.
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, what we believe in on this side is
ministerial accountability for tax dollars.
The internal EDC audits further illustrate the government's
practice of cutting cheques first and asking questions second. In
three successive audits the minister was rebuked for handing over
money for economic diversification with no record of the economic
benefit of the dollars spent.
The Minister of Industry is responsible for the spending of
hundreds of millions of taxpayers dollars. Why then is he more
concerned with the political benefit for Liberals than with
economic accountability for taxpayers?
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of National Revenue and
Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the
Regions of Quebec), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the question of
mismanagement they are raising must be part of their dream. All
the elements of the report I have in my hand show that the
department is acting properly and is monitoring the situation
properly. We make the difference in all the regions.
1440
If they do not want to play cheap politics and they have
specific concerns regarding the management of Canadian Economic
Development, I just ask the hon. member to come over and tell me
exactly what he is referring to. What I have shows that we are
doing good work in the regions as Liberals.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
The Speaker: Order, please. I am sure we want to hear
both the questions and the answers.
* * *
[Translation]
GASOLINE PRICING
Mr. Pierre Brien (Témiscamingue, BQ): Mr. Speaker, Canada has
special problems in the petroleum industry.
Even Liberal members who have examined the issue admit that the
high degree of concentration in the industry is the reason for
the volatility in retail prices.
How can the Minister of Industry settle for a Conference Board
study when the problems of the petroleum industry are well
known—too high a concentration in the industry and the
Conference Board's inability to serve as a true watchdog for
consumers?
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, a
study was announced and it is, I believe, a very important one.
First of all, it was suggested by Liberal members. Second, it
is a fundamental study in terms of helping us fully understand
the problems that exist. Third, if the member truly wants to
understand the situation in this sector, he should thank the
government for having announced this study.
Mr. Pierre Brien (Témiscamingue, BQ): Mr. Speaker, is the
minister aware that it was his own colleagues that concluded,
after an in-depth study, that part of the reason for high gas
prices was the absence of real competition in the petroleum
industry?
Why is he hiding behind the Conference Board study in an attempt
to buy time unless he is trying to protect the petroleum industry
and continue to rake in tax revenues from industry profits?
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
it was Liberal members who proposed the study. And a study will
be done.
But if his understanding of the situation is so good, perhaps he
can explain to his constituents that, first, the price of oil on
world markets has been higher for more than a year and, second,
that if someone can regulate retail sales prices, it is the
provincial governments.
* * *
[English]
ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AGENCY
Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, last week the auditor general reported
that the lax controls at HRDC had made it “difficult to know
whether the funds were used as intended, spent wisely and
produced the desired result”.
HRDC is not alone. Three years ago a Canadian Economic
Development Quebec region audit showed mismanagement of public
funds by the Department of Industry. Two subsequent audits
showed that little was done to correct these problems. Why does
the government wait until the official opposition reveals a
scandal before it does anything?
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of National Revenue and
Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the
Regions of Quebec), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I said back in
1995, we changed our mission. We have developed brand new
programming. Actually we are dealing with and getting involved
in the regions with two main programs.
I would just like to tell the House that of course we are
managing public funds. Of course we are getting involved in the
economic development of the regions. That is why on a yearly
basis we are dealing with internal audits as well as the auditor
general's reports.
Let me tell the House that I am pleased to report that now the
main programs of the department are ISO 9002, which means that we
do care about what we are doing and the management of public
funds. As well we are going to—
The Speaker: The hon. member for South Surrey—White
Rock—Langley.
Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley,
Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the
minister actually read the audit. The auditor general has
pointed out that problems in HRDC have been going on for a
quarter of a century and that there is no indication that the
programs have delivered the desired results.
Now we learn of similar problems with the Department of
Industry. How long has the Department of Industry been
mismanaging taxpayer dollars?
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I ask the hon. member to explain where she thinks the
Department of Industry is misspending taxpayer dollars. So far
today all the questions of members opposite have related to a
totally different department.
* * *
1445
[Translation]
AÉROPORTS DE MONTRÉAL
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
everyone is now aware of the big problems facing the ADM, a body
created by federal legislation.
In light of the federal government's responsibility in this
matter, is the Minister of Transport prepared to ask the
Standing Committee on Transport to ask Ms. Pageau-Goyette and all
the socio-economic stakeholders to appear and shed some light on
the problems faced by the ADM?
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, reports on the management of Aéroports de Montréal in
the papers are troubling. However, I must say that it is
functioning well.
As members know, the administration of the Montreal airports is
the responsibility of a committee in the region. I have spoken
with my officials and hope to have more details shortly.
* * *
[English]
TORONTO WATERFRONT
Ms. Carolyn Bennett (St. Paul's, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, last
November the federal government formed the Toronto waterfront
revitalization task force in co-operation with the Government of
Ontario and the city of Toronto. Today the task force issued its
report “Gateway to Canada”. In response to this report, can
the Minister of Transport tell the House what steps the
government plans to take to enhance and revitalize Toronto's
waterfront?
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, this is a very good day for Toronto and for Canada.
We have a report that will transform the port lands and the
entire shore in the greater Toronto area into a world class
commercial, residential and recreational facility. If this goes
ahead, this will be the largest urban redevelopment in world
history, twice as large as Canary Wharf.
The Government of Canada will want to work with the local
authorities to realize this dream. If we do realize this dream,
I am sure that it will assist Toronto in being awarded the 2008
Summer and Para Olympics.
* * *
ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AGENCY
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, the CED audits are a mirror image of the mess at HRDC.
If the minister does not have a copy, it would be my pleasure to
give him the audit report. There is too much flexibility,
insufficient monitoring and lack of compliance. After three
audits the problems remain. Why?
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of National Revenue and
Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the
Regions of Quebec), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I guess it must be
part of those members' dream. What I would like to tell the
House is like any other regional development agency, we face
audits on a yearly basis. I am pleased to report that the
department is able to cope with the situation and that there is
good management of public funds in my department and in regional
agencies.
The problem is that back in 1993 they on the other side of the
House would have destroyed all the tools that the Canadian
government has to get involved in economic development of the
regions. However, our Liberal values make sure that we are going
to keep being involved in order to make a difference in all
communities across Canada.
The Speaker: I remind the hon. member to please not use
any props.
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, it is a taxpayer's nightmare the way this government
spends taxpayers' money. He still does not get it. Even after
three audits the problems and I quote what it says “have
remained appreciably the same”. Do these audits not show that
the bungle at HRDC was just the tip of the iceberg?
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of National Revenue and
Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the
Regions of Quebec), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, again, if they have a
specific point they would like to raise, I ask them to come over.
I am pleased to report that we are working on a yearly basis
with the auditor general and the internal audit as well. I have
all the reports—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. I know that we do things
sometimes that come up pretty fast but that type of action in the
House is not acceptable.
I would ask that this type of thing not occur again in the House.
The hon. minister may answer the question.
1450
Hon. Martin Cauchon: Mr. Speaker, you have seen what they
just did. To keep up such behaviour has to be seen as a lack of
judgment. If they keep acting like that, I guess they are going
to have change their name one more time.
I would like to tell the House that we are working with the
auditor general. We are doing fine. We make a difference in the
regions across the province of Quebec and we are going to keep
helping the regions not only in the province of Quebec but across
Canada, even if they do not like it.
* * *
PUBLIC WORKS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr. Speaker, over
a year ago the House of Commons passed a motion that directed the
government to energy retrofit all of its 50,000 publicly owned
buildings. Given our obligation under Kyoto to reduce harmful
greenhouse gas emissions and given the obvious cost savings
benefits associated with the demand side management of our energy
resources, I would like the Minister of Public Works and
Government Services to answer one simple question. How many of
these 50,000 buildings has the government energy retrofitted
since it was directed to do so by a motion in the House over a
year ago?
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Public Works and
Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, many buildings have
already been retrofitted and we continue to do so. We work with
the agencies and all the departments involved. We have a problem
and we intend to achieve all our objectives and have all
government buildings retrofitted to meet the energy requirements.
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I
can tell the hon. minister how many. Fewer than 100 have been
done since 1993. Of 50,000 buildings, 100 have been completed.
It will be a 500 year program to energy retrofit its buildings.
The government is devoid of ideas. It is a government that is
out of gas, except for greenhouse gases it would seem.
We have an opportunity to save billions of dollars a year in
operating costs, create thousands of jobs and reduce harmful
greenhouse gas emissions by hundreds of millions of tonnes, yet
the government refuses to act.
The demand side management of our energy resources is an idea
whose time has come. Why will the government not get on with it?
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Public Works and
Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let me assure the
hon. member and the House that we have a schedule. We are
working diligently with industry and all the departments. We will
meet the requirements as scheduled.
* * *
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, my question again is for the parliamentary secretary
and former teacher. I think she doth protest too much.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. I am sure it is interesting
what we all did in our former lives, but perhaps we could just
call ourselves by our present titles.
Mr. Peter MacKay: Mr. Speaker, the parliamentary
secretary knows there is nothing improper in asking about ongoing
investigations. The minister has referred many times to the 19
that are currently under way. We would like to know about more.
In February 1998 the member for Kitchener Centre replied to a
letter to an ACTI complaint that she had contacted HRDC and that
everything was fine. Was the complaint passed on to the
department and did the department act on that investigation?
Ms. Bonnie Brown (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Human Resources Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I actually
do not know the answer, but I will be happy to check on this
project with the officials and get back to the member opposite.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, there is a growing concern that part of the six
point plan is to call in the police. I would like to know if the
hon. parliamentary secretary would be willing to table documents
and correspondence with respect to this ongoing problem that
appears to exist with ACTI. Will she undertake to table those
documents in the House?
1455
Hon. George S. Baker (Minister of Veterans Affairs and
Secretary of State (Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency),
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the majority of these 19 investigations
which the hon. member referred to actually involve ACOA in the
eastern region. Three of them concern only the applications
because no money was spent. Separate from that, three of them
involve investigations into provincial involvement. With four of
them the grants were given out when the Tories were in power. We
are still trying to clean up the mess left by the hon. member's
government.
* * *
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. John Richardson (Perth—Middlesex, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to address this question to the
Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence.
A recent report states that national defence plans to eliminate
some of its historic combat regiments. Would the parliamentary
secretary give members of the House a more current report of the
national defence report being studied at national defence
headquarters?
[Translation]
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, before answering my
colleague's question, I would like to point out the excellent
work done by our reservists, whether in Bosnia, Kosovo or other
hot spots.
Returning to the specific question of my colleague, I can tell
you that no specific decision has been reached. The document to
which hon. member refers is only a reference document. It is
one of several on the minister's desk for consideration in due
course.
* * *
[English]
ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AGENCY
Mr. Philip Mayfield (Cariboo—Chilcotin, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General of Canada pointed
out that HRDC's disregard for rules and proper controls is
embedded in its culture and showed that lax administration was an
ongoing problem since at least 1977. That is 23 years, nearly a
quarter of a century.
Here in these latest audits we see the same problems at Canadian
Economic Development. How many more audits need to be uncovered
before the government cleans up its shocking, scandalous
mismanagement of taxpayers' money?
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of National Revenue and
Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the
Regions of Quebec), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, we
have had a new mission at Canadian Economic Development since
1995. We are dealing basically with—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. We will hear the response
from the minister.
Hon. Martin Cauchon: Mr. Speaker, basically we are
dealing with small and medium size enterprises across the
province of Quebec.
I would like to add again that we are working with an internal
audit on a yearly basis. We proceed with improvements on a
yearly basis. I am proud of the work which is done by the
agency. We are going to keep working with the regions. Let me
repeat that for some years, the main program of the department
has been ISO 9002.
[Translation]
I suspect my English is not up to the task, so I shall say it
again in French: ISO 9002.
* * *
SHIPBUILDING
Mr. Antoine Dubé (Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, in January, after months of representations by employers
and workers at Canada's main ship yards, the Minister of Industry
admitted that new measures were needed and that he intended to
set up a consultative committee to look into ways of helping the
shipbuilding industry. Two months later, there is still no
action.
Given the importance of this issue, will the Minister of
Industry finally get going and deliver on his promises, before
other ship yards close down and workers are laid off?
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we
are meeting with the interested parties, including union
representatives. We are continuing to consider the information
they are providing.
It is important to understand that the problem facing this
sector is an international one, as overcapacity in this industry
throughout the world stands at 40%.
* * *
[English]
HEPATITIS C
Ms. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker, very
few Canadians have any faith in the health minister's promise to
protect universal health care. Is it any wonder? Two years ago
the same minister made another promise. Two years ago today was
the anniversary of the health minister's promise to compensate
some of the victims of the hepatitis C tainted blood scandal.
Two years have past and the victims are still waiting; not a
penny for victims but big bucks for lawyers. Is this the action
of a caring government?
1500
When will the health minister get the money to the dying people
who desperately need it?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Yes, Mr.
Speaker, it was two years ago that the government persuaded the
provincial governments for the first time to take part with us in
the compensation scheme for hepatitis C victims in the blood
tragedy.
Every NDP government in the country supported us in that and
continue to support us. Every government went before the courts
and had the agreement approved. The court has now approved the
administrator and I understand cheques will be sent shortly.
If this government had not acted the case would be before the
courts for many years to come.
* * *
THE ENVIRONMENT
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC): Mr. Speaker, over the
last seven years the Liberal government has not passed one piece
of environmental legislation of its own despite the fact that
Canadians are still working toward improving environmental
legislation.
The Species at Risk Working Group, a consortium of mining, pulp
and paper, woodlot owners, farmers and environmental groups, have
laid out a specific recommendation on what we should see in
species at risk legislation. However, the government has chosen
to ignore it. This is another circumstance where a borrowed par
record on the green is not acceptable.
Why will the Minister of the Environment not accept the
recommendations of SARWG?
Ms. Paddy Torsney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of the
Environment, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am not sure where the hon.
member has been but perhaps he has been dreaming in technicolour
in the interim.
We passed environmental assessment legislation and environmental
protection legislation. We are doing a lot of things in this
government, whether it be the budget or it be legislation, to
ensure that we are meeting the challenges of the new millennium.
The reality is that the minister will introduce species at risk
legislation. He has been working very hard on it and it will be
a good bill.
* * *
POINTS OF ORDER
CANADIAN ALLIANCE—SPEAKER'S RULING
The Speaker: This morning the hon. member for
Hamilton—Wentworth raised a point of order and I would like to
make a ruling on it.
First, I thank the hon. member for bringing this matter dealing
with the recognition of political parties in the House to the
attention of the Chair. I wish to inform all members that the
procedures followed in recognizing the new Canadian Alliance are
entirely in keeping with our traditions and practices. No
further requirement exists either for action by the House or by
the members directly involved.
I would take this opportunity to point out that our practices
here are entirely separate from and independent of any
stipulation set out in the Canada Elections Act. Hon. members
interested in this topic may consult a very helpful ruling by
Speaker Fraser and this can be found in the Debates for
December 13, 1990, at pages 16705 and 16706.
* * *
1505
PRIVILEGE
BILL C-206
The Speaker: Last Friday the hon. member for Prince
George—Peace River raised a question of privilege concerning
Bill C-206 which is under the name of the hon. member for
Wentworth—Burlington. As I recall, it had to do with the amount
of time given to the member for Wentworth—Burlington to get 100
signatures for his bill. On Friday the hon. member simply could
not be here and therefore his motion was dropped to the bottom of
the list.
The hon. member for Wentworth—Burlington is in his seat. Is he
aware of the question of privilege which was brought up? He
signals to me that he is. Would the hon. member like to make an
intervention? The hon. member for Wentworth—Burlington.
Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am very surprised by the attack made by the Canadian
Alliance Party. You will forgive me if I reply at some length.
Basically what the whip for the former party said was that I was
absent from the House on Friday because he felt that I was unable
to get the 100 signatures that I was expected to get in order for
Bill C-206 to remain on the order paper. He was making the
assumption that I had to get those signatures by that Friday in
order for my bill to remain on the order paper.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to take you through exactly what the
whip for the Reform Party did say. I would like you to compare
it with the evidential record. The member was referring to the
procedure and House affairs committee discussions of March 2 in
which the status of my signatures and Bill C-206 were discussed
in the context of a point of privilege that you ruled on, Mr.
Speaker.
He said on Friday that during the discussions at committee it
was suggested that the member for Wentworth—Burlington be
apprised of the intentions of the committee before the committee
actually finalized its report in order to allow him time to seek
the recommended support for his bill. The reason for this
urgency was because the committee intended the deadline to be the
first opportunity for the bill to be considered for its first
hour of debate.
Mr. Speaker, I have in my hands—not as a prop—the committee
record of that discussion of March 2. In it you will find no
such reference. There was no such discussion by anyone in that
committee about whether I should be apprised to get my signatures
in advance of the final report.
Moreover, Mr. Speaker, I received no official communication from
the committee before the finalized 19th report. No one said
anything to me about the decision to require me to get the
signatures again for my Bill C-206.
It might interest you to know, Mr. Speaker, that the timing was
interesting as well because the deputy whip tabled the 19th
report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs
on March 17, the Friday before March 20, which was the first day
that the committee record became available. The records were not
even available before the report was finalized and I received no
communication whatsoever. I suggest to you that what was said by
the hon. member for Prince George—Peace River is completely at
odds with the facts.
Mr. Speaker, while I was aware of the recommendation that was
contemplated by the committee, even before the report was
finalized, I, quite honestly, never expected you to rule the way
you did. I did not expect you to uphold the recommendation that
came from that committee much less the recommendation as
contained in the finalized report that was only available to me
on the Friday before the Tuesday on which you ruled.
Nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, I took your ruling in good spirits
because I respect the Chair. I might find it uncomfortable
sometimes when you rule in ways that take me by surprise but
nevertheless I respect that any time you do approach a ruling you
approach it with the kind of dispassionate impartiality that we
expect of you.
1510
Last Friday the whip for the Reform Party went on to say:
The member for Wentworth—Burlington rose after the Speaker's
ruling and sought further clarification. He clarified with the
Chair that if he could secure 100 signatures by Friday, March 24,
200, today, his bill could remain on the order paper.
What is it that I actually said following your ruling on March
21? Mr. Speaker, for your benefit, I will quote what I actually
said. I said:
What I am asking you, Mr. Speaker, is, if I can get the
signatures in the next day or so that perhaps Bill C-206 could
remain where it is on the order of precedence rather than being
dropped to the very bottom and perhaps not being debated for some
months to come.
Just to be doubly sure, I repeated it and said:
What I am asking you, Mr. Speaker, is, if I can get the hundred
signatures in the next day or two—and I would hope to have the
co-operation of the opposition parties in this—can my bill
remain on the order of precedence and come up on Friday—
Mr. Speaker, as you can see from what I just said, the
assumption was that I would have the opportunity to collect those
signatures so long as the bill remained on the order of
precedence, whether it was on the order of precedence for Friday
or dropped in the order of precedence at the time, it did not
matter. In fact, Mr. Speaker, in your own words, you said:
I believe the question the hon. member is asking is whether this
bill will come up in the normal course of events. The answer is,
yes. Is that what the question is?
I said “Yes”. So, Mr. Speaker, that is clear. You can see,
if you go back to what the whip for the Reform Party said, he has
distorted the record. He was suggesting that for some reason
there was a ruling on your part that prevented my bill from
dropping to the bottom of the order of precedence and not being
valid as a result of having done so.
The most wounding and injurious thing of all that the member for
Prince George—I can never remember where it is.
An hon. member: Prince George—Peace River.
Mr. John Bryden: Prince George—Peace River. Well, yes,
some peace.
The Speaker: I am sure that we do want to make fun of any
member's riding. It is Prince George—Peace River, I would
remind the hon. member.
Mr. John Bryden: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry, but I am
suffering. I have been ill all weekend and you can tell by my
voice. I am coming to that as well.
Mr. Speaker, the last wounding charge was the suggestion that I
was deliberately absent from the House on that Friday because I
could not get my 100 signatures.
Mr. Speaker, I have to tell the hon. member opposite something.
I was sick. I was very ill. On Wednesday I had a sore throat
and was afraid I had strep throat. On Thursday I carefully
backed off going around trying to collect my 100 signatures
because I was afraid I was contagious. I have to admit that I
would have been delighted to sit behind the member for Athabasca
and maybe make him a little sicker, but I did not.
Mr. Speaker, I will point out to you that the member for New
Brunswick Southwest will recall that I came over and sat in those
chairs where the pages are right now. He called me over because
he wanted to talk to me about Bill C-206. I sat there in those
chairs and I said “I am sorry, I cannot come any closer to you
because I am afraid I have something. I do not want you to
become ill”. If I did not pursue my signatures on Wednesday and
Thursday it was for the very good reason that I did not want to
risk the members of the House getting the illness that I had.
If there is any doubt whatsoever from that party opposite that I
was sick on that particular day, I have here—and I can give it
to a page—the actual doctor's prescription that I received at
the very moment that the member was making those charges against
me. I deliberately did not fill this prescription so that I
could present it in the House as evidence that I was indeed sick
at the time that we are speaking of. If I can get a page to come
up, this will show you, Mr. Speaker, that it is an actual
document. It is a prescription.
The Speaker: In the House a member's word is enough when
it comes to matters such as these. I invite the hon. member to
bring it to a close.
1515
Mr. John Bryden: I do bring it to a close. If a doctor's
letter is required or even the lab tests are required, these will
be made available to you, Mr. Speaker.
I just want to conclude by saying one thing, that the Reform
Party ended its life last Friday. I have to say that for me it
ended its life suitably as showing an example of the kind of
mean-spiritedness, the lack of respect for—
The Speaker: I think we are getting the picture. I do
not want to get into more debate. Of course I hope the hon.
member will recover soon. I think the sooner he gets out of the
House the better it will be for all of us who are here.
I see the hon. whip of the Canadian Alliance is on his feet now.
I do not want to get into debate, but I will hear him for just a
short while.
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I would just like to say in defence
that I stand by what I said on Friday. I believe this is a very
serious issue, despite what the hon. member for
Wentworth—Burlington has said. If there is ever an example of
mean-spiritedness, we have certainly witnessed some of it just
now.
The Speaker: I intervened on the term mean-spiritedness
on this side and I am sure that in the spirit of
good-spiritedness the hon. member will make his point.
Mr. Jay Hill: Mr. Speaker, I just conclude by saying that
I stand by my statement on Friday and I do ask that you rule, as
you always do, in a spirit of impartiality.
The Speaker: That is one thing that all members can be
sure of. In that spirit of impartiality I will take a day or so
to think about what was said now that I have heard both sides of
the story.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[Translation]
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant
to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in both
official languages, the government's response to four petitions.
* * *
[English]
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-462, an act to amend the Criminal Code and the
Firearms Act (exemption of long guns from registration).
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is indeed with pleasure that I have
the opportunity to introduce my bill, an act to amend the
Criminal Code and the Firearms Act, to ensure that there is an
exemption from the need to register long guns.
The purpose of this enactment is to exempt ordinary long guns,
meaning firearms that are neither prohibited nor restricted from
registration. The criminal code is amended to remove the
provision that makes it an offence to possess a long gun that is
not registered. The Firearms Act is amended to remove the
requirement to register long guns.
In addition, there are a number of consequential amendments to
both acts removing references to registration with respect to
long guns. This enactment does not affect the law respecting
prohibited weapons or restricted weapons. Essentially, to
paraphrase the bill, it is to remove the need to register long
guns which are commonly used by deer hunters, duck hunters and
farmers.
It is a very important piece of legislation that we believe
wastes taxpayer money, so it is my pleasure to table the bill at
this time.
1520
To conclude, a number of individuals share the same sentiments
and I am looking forward to having signatures from all parties
that would participate in that way.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
PETITIONS
BREAST CANCER
Mr. Walt Lastewka (St. Catharines, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
present a petition that draws the attention of the House to the
fact that Canada has the second highest incident rate of breast
cancer in the world, second only to the United States, and the
fact that the United States has had a mandatory mammography
quality assurance standard since October 1994.
Therefore the petitioners request and call upon parliament to
establish legislation and an independent governing body to
develop, implement and enforce uniform and mandatory mammography
quality assurance and quality control standards in Canada.
CHILD PORNOGRAPHY
Mr. John Cummins (Delta—South Richmond, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I have two petitions I would like to
present today. The first one deals with concerns that
constituents expressed regarding the failure of the government to
deal effectively with the child pornography issue.
IMMIGRATION
Mr. John Cummins (Delta—South Richmond, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the second petition deals with the
failure of the government to deal effectively with illegal
immigration to this country.
The petitioners are calling on the government to allow quickly
for the deportation of individuals in obvious and blatant abuse
of the system when it occurs.
GENETICALLY ALTERED FOODS
Ms. Aileen Carroll (Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have the honour to present two petitions to the House.
In the first one, more than 300 constituents in my riding of
Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford and adjacent ridings have signed a
petition that calls upon parliament to legislate clear labelling
on all genetically altered seeds, foods and their byproducts
available in Canada.
It further requests that these products be banned from the
market until they have been rigorously tested to prove their
safety when consumed by humans and come into contact with all
other species with whom we share the planet.
CHILD POVERTY
Ms. Aileen Carroll (Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have a second petition signed by 89 constituents in my
riding of Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford. They ask parliament to
fulfil the promise made in the 1989 House of Commons resolution
to end child poverty by the year 2000.
MINING
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr. Speaker, in
keeping with Standing Order 36, I am proud to stand in my place
today to present a petition on an issue that is very timely,
topical and urgent.
These thousands of signators from Yellowknife, Northwest
Territories, and the surrounding area remind the government of
the tragic history of the Royal Oak and Giant mines and the
urgent situation of the many laid off workers and the pensioners
who continue to be disadvantaged by this situation today.
These citizens of Yellowknife point out that the government
played a role in negotiating away the severance package and the
pension benefits of these workers and that it has an obligation
at this time to make these workers whole once and for all.
These citizens call upon government to amend the Bankruptcy Act,
the Pension Benefit Act and any other legislation that needs to
be amended to put the rights of workers first in the case of a
bankruptcy and not down the line after the corporate interests.
There is a hunger strike under way dealing with this issue. The
government has the ability to act and these many thousands of
Yellowknifers are demanding the government takes action today to
end the tragic history of the Royal Oak and Giant mines in
Yellowknife.
CHILD PORNOGRAPHY
Mr. Lou Sekora (Port Moody—Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, today I have two petitions to present.
One is from the Canada Family Action Coalition. The petition
calls upon parliament to make sure that the possession of child
pornography remains a serious criminal offence.
1525
CANADA POST CORPORATION
Mr. Lou Sekora (Port Moody—Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the second petition is from the
Organization of Rural Route Mail Couriers. The petitioners call
upon the parliament to repeal subsection 13(5) of the Canada Post
Corporation Act.
EQUALITY
Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton East, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I take great pride in presenting a petition that has
been put forward by over 1,000 concerned Canadians, mostly from
the province of Quebec.
The petitioners ask the government to affirm that all Canadians
are equal under all circumstances, including linguistically,
without exception in the province of Quebec and throughout
Canada. They wish to remind the government to enact only
legislation that affirms the equality of each and every
individual under the laws of Canada.
BREAST CANCER
Mr. John O'Reilly (Haliburton—Victoria—Brock, Lib.):
Pursuant to Standing Order 36, I am presenting a petition from
the people of the Kingston area who will be in your thoughts, Mr.
Speaker.
The petitioners call upon parliament to enact legislation to
establish an independent governing body to develop, implement and
enforce uniform and mandatory mammography quality assurance and
quality control standards in Canada.
THE CONSTITUTION
Ms. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am
privileged on behalf of citizens from my home community of
Thompson to add this list of petitioners to those that I have
already presented.
They call upon parliament to preserve the reference to God in
the Constitution of Canada. They recognize that it honours the
faith of millions of Canadians, symbolizes an important part of
our heritage, and reflects the diversity and plurality of the
religions in Canada.
CHILD POVERTY
Mr. Paul DeVillers (Simcoe North, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have a petition to present pursuant to Standing Order 36. It is
signed by 119 people in my riding who petition parliament to
fulfil the promise in the 1989 House of Commons resolution to end
child poverty by the year 2000.
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have the honour to present a petition signed by
constituents of mine and of the neighbouring riding of
Nepean—Carleton.
They remind the House of Commons of the unanimous resolution to
end child poverty by this year and that, rather, the number of
poor children in Canada has increased by 60% since then. They
call upon parliament to fulfil the promise in the 1989 House of
Commons resolution to end child poverty this year.
* * *
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Question No. 64 will be answered today.
.[Text]
Question No. 64—Mr. John Williams:
Regarding the recent Conference of Spouses of heads of State and
Government of the Americas held in Ottawa from September 29 to
October 1, 1999: (a) what was the total cost of the conference,
including all breakdowns for accommodation: (b) how many
spouses had their travel to, from and while in Canada subsidized,
by the federal government: (c) if a spouse's travel was
subsidized, how much was spent on her personal travel, including
any travel for assistants and/or staff: and (d) how much was
spent on security by the federal government for the conference?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Regarding the recent Conference of Spouses of Heads of State and
Government of the Americas held in Ottawa from September 29 to
October 1, 1999:
(a) Although all of the costs have not yet been tallied, Canada
expects that the total cost will be in the vicinity of
$3,439,000. Accommodation costs total $291,520, $87,235 of which
is attributable to visiting delegations. The balance of $204,285
is accommodation costs associated with the members of the staff
and contractors needed—conference co-ordinators, liaison
officers, translators.
(b) None of the delegations had any travel to or from Ottawa
subsidized by the federal government.
(c) See (b) above.
(d) Canada's security costs for the conference were $281,063.
[English]
Mr. John Cummins (Delta—South Richmond, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. On
October 15, 1999 I asked Question No. 28. That was first asked
on the March 23 as Question No. 226 and never answered. On
October 18, 1999 I asked Question No. 29. That was first asked
on March 24, 1999 as Question No. 227 and was never answered.
These questions go to the heart of the misuse by the Department
of National Defence of the anti-malarial drug Mefloquine and its
misleading of the Somalia inquiry during that particular
investigation. I would like those questions answered.
Mr. Derek Lee: Mr. Speaker, the member's inquiry on this
issue is quite appropriate. I would commit to him to take note
of his representations on these outstanding questions, to get
back to him at the earliest possible date, and to get answers to
the questions he has tabled.
I ask that the remaining questions be allowed to stand.
The Deputy Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
THE BUDGET
The House resumed consideration of the motion that this House
approves in general the budgetary policy of the government; and
of the amendment.
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Speaker, one
way to judge the budget is not just by the debate that takes
place in the House. It is also by what kind of response there is
in the community from the various organizations that monitor what
the government is doing and are involved in various programs and
campaigns, for example, Campaign 2000 or the campaigns around
housing.
1530
On the day of the budget one of those organizations, a group of
poor tenants from a Quebec social housing coalition called
FRAPRU, occupied the offices of the Canadian Human Rights
Commission in Ottawa. They sat in the offices of the Canadian
Human Rights Commission because they wanted to hear what was in
the budget. They were very worried that the government would
turn its back on the needs of poor tenants and the homeless.
After they heard the budget they continued their occupation of
the Canadian Human Rights Commission offices. It carried over 24
hours into the next day. I visited to speak to them about their
concerns. They were pretty disappointed. More than that, they
were outraged that the $100 billion surplus which had been built,
as we have heard from our member for Winnipeg Centre, on the
backs of the unemployed, the surplus from the unemployment
insurance commission and the public pension plan, did not contain
any money for a national housing program.
The budget basically reannounced the $753 million that had been
announced by the minister responsible for homelessness prior to
Christmas. Anyone who for a minute has been fooled into thinking
that announcement will mean the construction of affordable, safe,
secure and appropriate housing for families, children, seniors,
unemployed people and low income people has made a big mistake.
I had a meeting in my riding with the HRDC officials who are
responsible for carrying out this initiative and with community
groups who wanted to find out whether the $750 million which was
reannounced in the budget actually would build social housing,
and the answer was no. It is basically a program that will
institutionalize shelters. It deals with training programs,
youth at risk and aboriginal programs, all of which are good
measures, but the budget failed on the fundamental issue that
needed to be addressed in terms of a housing strategy. It was
completely absent.
It is no wonder that a group like FRAPRU and the organizations
which it represents felt the need to take demonstrative action.
A few weeks later representatives from housing organizations
came to Ottawa to bear witness to yet another death of a homeless
person. Several homeless people died in the city of Toronto.
Representatives of those organizations came to the Canadian Human
Rights Commission, called on the government and demanded to know
why in the budget, when there were such opportunities with the
surplus that existed, the poor, the homeless and people who are
underhoused in the country were completely forgotten.
I have been working closely with people concerned about the
so-called children's agenda. I wanted to know their reaction to
the budget. How many times have we heard government members talk
about the children's agenda? How many times have we heard
government members talk about the platitudes of wanting to end
child poverty? Even today in the House there were three
petitions presented by government members from their constituents
in Liberal ridings who want the government to end child poverty.
There was a lot of expectation that the budget would be a
children's budget, but it failed on that score. There was no
money in the budget for a national child care program or an early
childhood development program. There were no funds announced to
ensure that the child tax benefit would be passed on to children
and families on welfare.
Is it any wonder that a group like the Canadian Teachers'
Federation in its analysis of the budget said that it falls short
of fulfilling the federal government's promise of implementing a
national children's agenda as outlined in the recent throne
speech. It goes on to say that the budget repeats the same
promises that appeared in the Speech from the Throne and in
statements made by first ministers in 1997 when they agreed to
accelerate work on a national children's agenda.
There are no dollars allocated for this purpose. Canada's
children deserve more than rhetoric. That is what the Canadian
Teachers' Federation had to say.
1535
If we go back to the October 1999 throne speech, the commitment
made by the Prime Minister was to take the action necessary as a
country so that every Canadian child could have the best possible
start in life. The government has failed miserably on that
score. Not only has it not taken action to ensure that all
children have a good start in the early years of their lives, the
situation has deteriorated considerably since the resolution
which was passed unanimously by the House in 1989, introduced by
the then leader of the NDP, Ed Broadbent, to eliminate child
poverty. There are now 50% more children than there were in 1989
living in poverty. Why did this $100 billion surplus not address
the needs of those kids?
We have a very credible organization, the National Anti-Poverty
Organization, headquartered in Ottawa. It works at the
grassroots level in social justice and anti-poverty right across
the country. What did its analysis say? That the budget would
widen the gap between rich and poor. It pointed out that while
the finance minister spoke about the gap between the rich and the
poor, the measures in his budget not only failed to reduce the
problem but would actually make it worse.
The real proof is in the numbers. As NAPO has pointed out, if
we compare the situations of two single people, one who has an
income of $10,000 and another with an income of $100,000, the gap
between those incomes will actually increase by $2,377 because of
this budget. It begs the questions: Is this a budget that is
based on any sort of principle of equality? Is it a budget that
deals with the horror of what poor children, families and the
unemployed have to deal with? The answer is no. As we can see
clearly, this budget actually increases the gap between those who
are wealthy and those who are poor.
I also have information that was provided by groups like the
Canadian Federation of Students. One of the things I was really
interested in seeing in the budget was whether there would be any
real relief for students who are facing crushing debt loads
because of their post-secondary education. Let us make no
mistake, student debt in the country has increased threefold,
from about $8,000 to about $25,000. That has been the average
student debt since the Liberal government came to power.
There are no two ways about it, the reason is because of the
massive retreat in public funding of more than $3 billion which
has been cut from post-secondary education and training. Is it
any wonder that the Canadian Federation Students came out with
its analysis which said that the federal 2000 budget did nothing
to fix the funding crisis in post-secondary education. In fact,
the $600 million in additional annual funding for health care and
education falls far short of the $3.7 billion which the premiers
have publicly stated is immediately required for post-secondary
education. It will not even cover inflation.
This is particularly offensive. In the throne speech we heard
various platitudes and commitments to a knowledge based economy
and to helping young people in the future. If we look at the
reality, young people are facing debt loads and increasing
inaccessibility to our schools.
Finally, it is no better on the health care front. I am proud
to say that the NDP has campaigned rigorously day after day in
the House to point out the shortcomings of the budget when it
comes to health care. We have made it quite clear, and the
numbers tell the truth, that even with the so-called increase in
health care we will still be short $3.3 billion more than when
the Liberals came to power in 1993.
One of my constituents, Mr. Harvey Dueck, wrote to the finance
minister. He said: “I am writing to add my voice to those who
are asking you to favour funding health care and other social
programs above tax cuts in this and future budgets”. He
continued: “I am in an income tax bracket where I would benefit
more than most from any proposed tax cut, but I beg you not to
tread that path until social programs are once again secure and
the debt, not merely the deficit, has been vastly reduced or
limited”.
1540
He went on to tell of the difficulties that he had when he
visited the emergency room because there were not enough nurses,
there were not enough doctors and there were not enough records
management people to provide the information that was needed.
The budget fails on that score as well. I want to say that we
in the NDP believe that the government missed the opportunity it
had to deal with poverty and to deal with growing inequality.
Instead it decided to implement tax cuts, which basically favour
the rich over the poor. For us, that is simply appalling.
Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
listened with great interest to the member's remarks and I would
like to respond to her remarks concerning higher education.
In the recent budget scholarship income was made tax free up to
$3,000. In previous budgets there was the RESP, the registered
educational savings plan program, which included not only tax
breaks but actually a grant for each child in a family, up to a
considerable amount. These were the first new grants in higher
education for many years.
Also in this budget there were the 2,000 funded research chairs,
funded research professorships, which will have a direct affect
on students. There will be junior and senior professorships.
Students will be employed.
The granting councils over the last several years have received
considerable additional funds. This year, for example, the
social sciences council alone received an additional $10 million.
All of those grants go to help students on the campuses to get
jobs working with professors and that kind of thing.
As well, the government put all colleges, universities, high
schools and elementary schools on the Internet, which is a very
important step.
I have not even mentioned the millennium scholarships.
The member said that the government has not done much to help
higher education. I know that more must be done, but this time
university groups, students and others, have said to us that we
should increase transfers to the provinces so that core funding
for universities, not more scholarships or research help, which
is supplied by the provinces, could be strengthened.
If the member reads the budget, this time the transfers to the
provinces were referred to as higher education and health. Our
concern on the government side was that if we transferred this
money for higher education and health, how would we know, in
either of those fields, what the provinces would do?
Has she heard of any province which has used the increase in the
block transfer this year for higher education purposes? If she
has, I would be glad to hear it. If she has not, could she
suggest to us ways in which we could be sure that the money we
transfer to the provinces will be used for the purposes for which
it was intended, higher education and health?
Ms. Libby Davies: Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the
hon. member for his question. It is a very good question and it
gives me an opportunity to say a bit more about the concerns we
have with post-secondary education.
It is fair to raise the question that if there is an increase in
the Canada health and social transfer, how could we provide an
assurance that the money would actually be used for education. I
know that is the case in my own province of British Columbia. Our
government has put a freeze on tuition fees and has made sure
that accessibility to post-secondary education will not be
eroded.
I would suggest that if the member is concerned about where the
dollars are going for health care, social programs or
post-secondary education, he should be supporting the initiative
which the federal New Democrats put forward both at the HRDC
committee and in the House to say that the federal government
should bring in a new national standard based on accessibility to
post-secondary education.
We believe very much that there must be federal dollars. The
measures that the member outlined do not even come close to
making up for the billions of dollars that have been stripped
away and gutted from our colleges and universities.
Whatever increase there is, the government should be
implementing a standard based on accessibility precisely to
ensure that students across the country, whether they are in
Ontario, New Brunswick or British Columbia, have access based on
affordability to post-secondary education.
Unfortunately that does not exist.
1545
I remind the member that it was his government that brought in
the CHST. It was his government that cut the strings and said to
the provinces, “Do whatever the hell you want”. That is why we
are in a mess now.
Perhaps I could throw the question back and ask the member to
support the initiatives from our party to make sure that there is
accessibility based on a national standard.
Hon. Ethel Blondin-Andrew (Secretary of State (Children and
Youth), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am splitting my time with my
hon. colleague the secretary of state for parks and rural
development. I should not forget rural development. We know how
important that issue is to all the rural regions of Canada, my
constituency being one of them.
Budget 2000 is an achievement of historic proportions. The
third successive balanced budget of this government is a feat not
seen since the days of C. D. Howe. We have tackled the
burdensome and ballooning deficit left by the previous
government. We have increased job creation. We have launched a
strategy to invest in Canadians.
Canadians now have every reason to feel confident and secure
about the economy. A bright future lies ahead for all thanks to
the sound fiscal management of this government.
In relation to my riding, it has been an extremely interesting
time in the Northwest Territories. We have a new government. We
have a new premier, Premier Kakfwi who is of aboriginal descent.
We have a cabinet the majority of whom I believe are aboriginal,
as well as the MLAs from the various parts of the territory.
The new commissioner is to be sworn in at 3.30 p.m. this coming
Friday. This Inuvialuit woman is a widow who has been very much
a community activist on health and social issues and educational
issues. She is raising four daughters on her own. She was a
very steady companion of her husband who passed away from cancer
a couple of years ago. It was a very long and tough journey for
both of them.
This is the way through which I have become familiar with the
circumstances of these individuals who take the lead in our
territory.
We also have a new senator, the first ever to make the history
books for the Northwest Territories, Senator Nick Sibbeston. He
also is of aboriginal descent and is a Dene speaking individual
from the Deh Cho region.
We have many unsung heroes in the north who work toward the
development in the most exciting time in the north.
This budget is not separate from that. We look to a strong
partnership with the federal government. We have major issues to
bring together for the benefit of all of Canada including the
north.
The national unemployment rate is at its lowest level in 24
years. Inflation remains in check. The debt burden is dropping.
The Canadian economy is growing. These are facts that not even
the opposition can deny.
[Translation]
It is precisely in the hope of achieving such impressive results
that Canadians elected us to office. Our government followed up
on its commitments and will pursue its efforts to continue to
improve the tax situation of all Canadians.
[English]
This record of achievement is what Canadians elected us to do.
Under this budget Canadians will reap the rewards of sound
fiscal management through tax savings and investments in our
children through increased investments in health care and
education.
The government is committed to invest in social and economic
development for all Canadians. We recognize regional inequities
in opportunities. We will not leave anyone behind as we move
forward in this new century. We do not believe in leaving the
most vulnerable in our society to fend for themselves. We
believe in access of opportunity.
1550
We do not believe in setting one Canadian against another. We
believe in pulling together as Canadians by investing in all
Canadians. Above all, investing in our children will secure a
better future for all Canadians.
The government is committed to work with our provincial and
territorial partners to develop an action plan by December 2000
to support early childhood development. We have identified six
priority areas: strengthening the family; early childhood
development; economic security; readiness to learn; adolescent
development; and support of communities. These speak loudly to
my constituents.
In the Northwest Territories we are in the midst of the biggest
development my territory has realized in the last number of
decades. Two diamond mines are in operation. Within six years
the exponential rate of return to the federal government from
those mines including the others that are potentially to come
onstream is going to be very high. Presently we get $19,000 per
capita for the individuals in my riding.
With the generation of revenue from these various industries,
including the development of a major pipeline down the Mackenzie
Valley which is now being studied, a number of options are being
proposed. The potential performance of that major pipeline
perhaps will make us a have territory some day. We will be able
to carry our own weight by virtue of the fact that we we will be
taking these resources out of our own area.
We hope to develop a partnership with the federal government on
devolution. That means a sharing of the revenues, a sharing of
the authorities, powers and responsibilities. This is what the
government in my territory is proposing to do. This partnership
is a sound approach for prosperity, for participation and for
equity.
The aboriginal people at one point many decades ago were opposed
to building the pipeline for their own reasons. Now the
aboriginal people are saying they want this development. Not
only do they want to build it, they want to own it. They want
equity ownership. That means a great deal of self-sustainability
for our community.
The budget is not separate from that. This all comes together.
We do not pretend we are a region onto ourselves, that we can do
it on our own. We believe we can do best in partnership.
In addition, the budget will increase the Canada child tax
benefit by $2.5 billion a year by 2004. This is a significant
investment. We cannot separate those things that are child
specific from the other fiscal issues and say they do not have an
impact. That is not the way in which governments or economies
work.
Our five year tax reduction plan will ease the tax burden for
low and middle income families with children beginning with the
current fiscal year. The maximum leave period for employment
insurance maternity and parental leave will be doubled to one
year. There will be $29 million allocated for family law related
services to support parenting information programs.
This budget will increase support and tax initiatives for
persons with disabilities and their families. That is of
particular concern to me. I have a great deal of concern for
young people with disabilities, those young people who are the
most vulnerable, those who need that hand up.
This budget also speaks to an issue of great importance to the
north, the environment. Global environmental changes have a
special impact in the western Arctic and northerners have a
special relationship to that land. This budget will now support
new environmental initiatives.
I have a delegation in town from the community of Deline who are
seized with the issue of uranium contamination from the mine at
Port Radium. There is contamination of the community and its
environment through the waterways all the way down the Mackenzie
through the Great Bear Lake and the Bear River.
These people are looking at the incidence of deaths related to
cancer. They are concerned not only about the people but also
the environment, the fish, the animals, the caribou, all of these
issues combined. They have a deep and abiding concern about the
wellness and the health of their people.
This working group and others have shown a great deal of concern
and initiative.
1555
In Yellowknife 270,000 tonnes of arsenic is sitting under the
city in silos from a mine that is still plagued with labour
issues as well as other things.
An hon. member from the other side presented a petition today.
I support that petition. I cannot put forward a petition as a
minister, but I agree that those people's views should be heard.
I support that.
In future when people who have worked under the condition of
being guaranteed a pension, I hope we can create the conditions
so that their pensions are protected and their conditions of
employment are respected.
There is much more I could say but I am sharing my time with my
colleague. In light of that I want to say that we are in an
exciting period in the area which I come from. We do not
separate ourselves from this budget. This budget is very
relevant to the things we want to do. We are proud to be part of
the government and in partnership with it to do what has to be
done to make a better country and a better community for our
people.
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I always like to listen to the hon. member when she
speaks about her part of the world. She makes eminently good
sense. I commend her for the enthusiasm with which she supports
her constituents and in particular on some of the natural
resources development like the proposed pipeline and the diamond
mines. That is perfectly legitimate. It is the kind of thing I
would expect any member of parliament to do.
I would like to ask the hon. member opposite whether she has
thought about other parts of the budget and in particular the
increase in Human Resources Development Canada. In this area
there is roughly $1 billion and economists have done some
estimates as to how much it really costs in terms of the output.
If we put a number of dollars into the job creation scheme the
assumption is that jobs are actually created. What is not said is
how many jobs are lost or what output costs are attributed to
each of these job creation schemes.
The job creation schemes have to be paid for through tax
increases to someone. People are paying additional taxes to pay
for these job schemes. Where does it come from? Economists have
estimated that the $1 billion has cost Canadians $520 million,
over half of the $1 billion.
Could the hon. member address this issue? It has been addressed
by people like Jim Mirrlees for example who won a Nobel prize
recently in developing the optimum taxation theory. I wonder if
she could comment on that.
Hon. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Mr. Speaker, I do not profess
to be a specialist in taxation but I can say that I come from an
area of very high need. Unemployment is very high. I am very
pleased we have made the investment in HRDC, putting aside all of
the other administrative difficulties that have befallen the
programs. I stand by the initiatives that we have undertaken in
my riding and across Canada that have created two million jobs.
They are two million jobs for two million Canadians who needed
good permanent jobs.
I also applaud the fact that we went from 11.5% to 6.8%
unemployment. Youth unemployment is going down but we are still
seized with that.
I come from an area where we must diversify the economy. We do
not need a hand out; we need a hand up. Northerners take good
advantage. I know there are other hon. members in the Chamber
who live in areas that are not as well served as those on the
industrial grid. We do not have huge industries. Jobs have to be
devised and opportunities have to be created for these people,
such as in tourism and the mining industry. We have to invest in
training and development.
As it is today, the majority of our workers are coming from
outside the territories. It is good for the hon. member's riding
and others as well, for Manitoba, Saskatchewan, British Columbia
and as far as the Atlantic. Workers are coming to the north to
work at these mines because we have invested in the opportunities
for them to do so.
On the other hand, we have to train people and we need the funds
to do that.
1600
I will not deal with all the other issues because we would need
more time. However, I want the hon. member to know that I stand
by the funding that my riding in particular has received. This
was much needed funding and it was used very well. It has
created opportunities where there would be none.
Ms. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
hon. member made reference to the pensioners in the area. She
has highly supported the petition that came in. I am sure she
recognizes that it was her Indian affairs minister who made an
agreement that literally wiped away the benefits for those
pensioners with no consideration for them. Obviously that is the
approach the government has taken in a number of areas that
reflect on ordinary Canadians. In this case it was workers who
in a lot of situations gave their lives. Those who are left are
now having their pensions wiped out.
If she truly supports this, how does she feel about her Indian
affairs minister signing the agreement that wiped away those
pensions?
Hon. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Mr. Speaker, my hon.
colleague, the Minister for Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, and I have worked together for almost 12 years. I
have the utmost respect for his judgment and thinking.
With regard to this situation, the Minister of Indian Affairs
and Northern Development is seized with his officials and
officials of another department in finding a solution and not
looking at blame. We are trying to find a solution so that these
people do not have the gap that will be created and will receive
full pensions. We are working on that. We are not looking to
blame someone. If we do that we could do an historical
chronology and many fingers could be pointed elsewhere. We are
not into that. We want to find solutions.
I am from that riding and I not only support those workers but I
support the workers across the country who may be in the same
situation. I feel that their story has to be told. Most of the
workers are older workers and I support them wholeheartedly in
their attempts to get a full pension.
[Translation]
Hon. Andy Mitchell (Secretary of State (Rural Development)
(Federal Economic Development Initiative for Northern Ontario),
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to address the February 28
budget, a budget full of good news for all Canadians, including
those who live in rural areas.
[English]
I know Canadians have responded well to the budget put forward
by the finance minister on February 28. That has been evident in
the House in the weeks since the budget was tabled as we have
seen very few actual questions from the opposition. In fact
people who have been around this place a lot longer than I have
expressed absolute astonishment on the general acceptance of the
budget by the opposition and, indeed, the general acceptance by
Canadians.
I believe that has occurred because the budget, in essence,
dealt with the priorities of Canadians. It dealt with the issue
of tax reductions. The budget put forward a plan of tax
reduction of some $54 billion. Canadians had indicated that one
of the objectives that needed to be addressed in this budget was
tax reduction.
It also dealt with the issue of debt reduction. At the high
point a couple of years ago, as a percentage of our GDP, the debt
in the country, thanks to the mismanagement of the Tory
government for years and years, had risen to a little over 71%.
As we follow through on the budget plan, the debt to GDP ratio
will drop to below 50%. In fact, over the last three years close
to $20 million in marketable debt has been repaid. This is a far
cry from what we saw from the Mulroney Tories.
This budget has also gained general acceptance among Canadians
because of the types of investments it has made and will continue
to make. We saw $2.5 billion being invested in health care,
adding to the $14.5 billion the year before. Transfers to the
provinces went up this year to the highest level, to some $43
billion over two or three years.
1605
We saw the commitment of $2.6 billion to the infrastructure
program to partner with other levels of government, $1 billion
for the federal government to deal with its own infrastructure
and, as we have heard from some of the previous comments made in
the House, some $700 million being invested into items to do with
the environment.
I am very pleased and most importantly I would like to talk
today about this budget in terms of rural Canada. I will quote a
piece of the speech that the Minister of Finance made. He said:
The concerns of rural Canadians are those shared by all
Canadians—quality health care, the best education for their
children, a good job. The difference is that, in the case of
rural Canada, a hospital closing, a school cutback or the loss of
a major employer threatens the very life of the community.
Therefore, we must expand economic development in smaller
communities right across the country, north and south, east and
west. We must recognize that in the years ahead, all orders of
government have to come together, as never before, to broaden
opportunities right across the country.
With those words, I think the Minister of Finance spoke clearly
to the needs, concerns and issues of rural Canada. What the
budget does is it recognizes, as this government began to
recognize and first enunciated in the Speech from the Throne in
1996, that the realities faced by rural Canadians are indeed
different than those faced by urban Canadians.
We simply have to take a look at some of those issues. Let us
take the issue of geography. If people live in a rural area
there is so much more geography. Let us take a look at the
distance from markets. If people are operating in a rural
marketplace, they often have added transportation costs and added
issues because of the distance from the market.
Let us look at the whole issue of population density. If one is
looking at investing in a rural area, often times there is not
the same potential market size that may exist in an urban area.
Let us look at the economy of rural Canada. When people
operate in rural Canada, it is, in most cases, a natural resource
based economy that is normally cyclical in nature. It is very
different from an urbanized, diversified, manufacturing based
economy.
The fact that urban and rural Canada are different, the fact
that the challenges are different and the fact that the
circumstances on the ground are different, requires the
government to respond differently in both areas. One of the great
strengths of this budget is that it realizes that we do need to
respond differently. The budget puts forward very clearly what
is a basic debate in this country: Does government have a role
to partner with communities, to partner with individuals and to
partner with businesses where circumstances call for an
improvement in the quality of life of, in this case, rural
Canadians? I believe it does.
Members across the way have stood in the House day after day
enunciating that the government does not have a role when it
comes to dealing with the regions. In question period today we
heard criticism after criticism piled on the minister responsible
for regional development in Quebec. Day after day we hear
criticisms when HRDC partners with rural communities and rural
citizens to help improve the quality of their lives.
The budget has clearly stated that we recognize there are
differences in rural Canada. We recognize there are different
challenges faced by rural Canadians. We are going to work as a
partner with those institutions, with those communities and with
those people to help improve the quality of life.
If we look at some of the specific points made in the budget,
some of the specific measures, we can see that the budget does
deal with some of those differences I talked about.
If we look at the issue of geography, we see an initiative there
of $160 million to ensure that we will be able to deliver all
government services on line. Those who live in a rural or remote
community often do not have the ability to access government
services in the traditional way of going to a particular office
or some place made of bricks and mortar. Here we have a
government understanding that specific issue in rural Canada,
understanding that rural Canadians need to have access to their
government, and we see an initiative of $160 million to provide
that type of access to them.
1610
When we look at distance from markets we look at the $2.6
billion infrastructure program that we will roll out in
conjunction with other levels of government. This is our own
billion dollar program. Something which is very important and
which rural Canadians saw clearly is that a component of the
infrastructure program has been specifically directed to rural
Canada, to the needs, the criteria and the challenges facing
rural Canadians in terms of developing their infrastructure.
Not only is the program there but it is being designed in a way
that will address the needs of rural Canadians and deal with the
difference in distance from markets.
The whole issue of population density is important to those who
live in rural Canada. The private sector often goes to an urban
setting, where it has a very vast market, and makes an investment
on its own because it can get a quick return on its investment.
Trying to make that same investment, for example, in
telecommunications infrastructure or in energy distribution, in a
rural area where we do not have that population density, requires
another partner. Often times that partner can and should be a
level of government. Sometimes is it is the federal government,
sometimes the provincial government and sometimes even the
municipal government, but it is an appropriate role to play.
We see in the budget a $54 million commitment to community
futures which can take an innovative approach to assisting
communities. It takes an approach that I like to call a bottom
up and not a top down approach. Community futures are run and
operated by local boards of directors, selected from local
individuals who make decisions on how they will go about
community development, not based on some decision that may be
made in Ottawa, Toronto, Edmonton or Victoria, but based on the
needs of that rural community.
We also see the government dealing with the cyclical nature of
our resource based economies with assistance to agriculture,
forestry and mining. This is a budget that demonstrates clearly
that this government understands the needs of rural Canadians,
that it is addressing those needs and that it cares about rural
Canadians. That is why I believe this budget deserves the
support of all members of the House, and particularly those
members who represent rural constituencies.
Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris—Moose Mountain, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I want to speak very passionately
about my constituency, as the Secretary of State for Children and
Youth just did. I particularly want to address the minister in
charge of rural development.
I want tell the last speaker that if he wants to see rural
development in a rural area going into collapse, he should look
at what is happening with the amount of money that this
government has put into my constituency. Of the $1.7 billion
announced across Manitoba and Saskatchewan, only 26% of the money
has been paid to the farmers as of March 12. Some 60% of all
Manitoba and Saskatchewan farmers had their AIDA forms rejected.
This is what I have as of today: First, the highest debt ever
in my constituency; second, more paved roads having to be
returned to gravel; and third, the worst fallout of people
leaving the constituency with the abandonment of towns all
because this government did not treat the number one industry in
western Canada in the same way it treated the west during the
national energy crisis.
I do not know how the member can stand and brag about rural
development when I am facing rural decline.
Hon. Andy Mitchell: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that the
hon. member is very concerned with his riding, as are all hon.
members in the House.
On the four occasions in the last four months that I have been
to Saskatchewan I have had an opportunity to talk to a wide range
of individuals. I am a little surprised that the hon. member
speaks that way. When his party was campaigning it talked about
taking money out of the agricultural budget but now that it seems
to be politically expedient it encourages it.
The reality is that not only did we put a billion dollars into a
farm aid disaster package in 1998-99, but the minister of
agriculture announced another billion dollars for 2000 and 2001.
Then we announced another $240 million specifically for
Saskatchewan and Manitoba. Just last week the Minister of
Agriculture and Agri-Food, along with his 10 colleagues from all
the provinces including the minister from Saskatchewan, signed an
agreement on how to deal with the basic safety net package.
1615
This is a government that cares about the farmers of western
Canada, cares about farmers right across Canada and is taking
concrete action.
Mr. Mark Muise (West Nova, PC): Mr. Speaker, I was quite
interested to hear the Secretary of State for Rural Development
speak about rural Canada. My riding of West Nova is very rural.
On January 21 a severe storm affected five or six wharves along
the coastline of Nova Scotia from Port Lorne down to Delaps Cove
and areas in between. Because of the severe cuts the federal
government had already done to the provinces and to various
programs, these wharves were in a state of some disrepair and the
storm severely damaged them.
I heard the secretary of state talk about supporting our rural
communities. Would he be prepared to encourage the Minister of
Fisheries and Oceans to put the proper funding in place to repair
the wharves, instead of just using the existing budget that is
taking away from the ongoing repair that needs to be done? Would
he encourage him to put in place some emergency relief by
possibly taking some of the millions and millions of dollars
wasted on the gun registry and putting it toward the repair of
those wharves and, as my colleague mentioned, helping farmers?
What does my hon. colleague think of that?
Hon. Andy Mitchell: Mr. Speaker, I am happy to hear from
the member for West Nova. I have had an opportunity to travel to
his riding and to work with him there. He makes a very good
point. There are different challenges in rural Canada than exist
in urban Canada which require the participation of the government
to deal with them. I send a very clear message to the former
Reform Party, the Canadian Alliance Party, that government has a
role to play in dealing with rural Canada.
I was pleased to see as part of the criteria for the
government's own billion dollar infrastructure program, that is
the infrastructure under its own auspices, that wharves was one
of the items listed as an example of things the particular
funding could deal with.
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC): Mr. Speaker, it is a
pleasure to have an opportunity to speak to this debate. We all
know that the budget debate is one of the most critical ones we
have each year. I will be splitting my time with the learned
member from the riding of West Nova. I know we are all looking
forward to his speech.
Budgets are more than just about numbers. Budgets are
essentially what I consider to be a blueprint that illustrates
the values of the government. It is a blueprint to discovering
what kind of vision the government has not only for today but
well into the future. It is also very much a blueprint to ensure
that we put forth the necessary initiatives so we can be
competitive not only today but into the future, so we can have a
vibrant economy to pay for all the programs or initiatives that
we hold dear as Canadians.
I want to talk about what the government is not doing in the
budget. In 1988 Canada went to the polls on the initiative of
free trade. We all know that election came down to one public
policy issue. At that time our trade with the Americans was
essentially around $90 billion each and every year. Today I am
very proud to say that through the FTA and NAFTA our trade with
the Americans is well over $260 billion annually.
We have had an enormous amount of economic growth over the last
seven years.
From where has that enormous growth come? It has largely come
from our trade relationship with the American economy, which we
all know is white hot. Without that initiative, without that
vision, without that blueprint, we would not be able to compete
in the economy and pay for the programs that we hold so very
dear.
1620
We are now at another milestone in the country's development.
The rest of the industrialized world, our trading partners, the
Americans and the Europeans, are now taking leaps in tax
reduction, giant steps to ensure that their economies are more
affluent. I call this an amazing coincidence. Maybe it is just
a coincidence, but I would argue that it makes economic sense.
The Irish exponentially lowered taxes both in the corporate tax
regime and in the personal tax regime, combined with investments
in terms of education. The Celtic tiger as it has come to be
known in Europe, Ireland, now leads Europe in the amount of its
economic growth with 98% growth in its GDP over the last 15
years.
Over the last number of years we have seen an exponential amount
of growth by the Germans of 18%, by the British of 18% and by the
Americans as well. It is a similar number. Meanwhile growth in
Canada has only been 7%. We are lagging behind our trading
partners. The reason for it is that we cannot keep wealth in
this country.
Time and time again it has been proven, and I call it the
amazing coincidence, that if we lower taxes we grow an economy to
create more wealth to pay for the programs that define us as a
society.
It happened in Ireland. It happened in Finland. Finland was
essentially a Soviet bloc country. Now it has a very growth
oriented economy. It happened when John Kennedy lowered taxes in
the 1960s. It happened when Progressive Conservative Premier
Ralph Klein made it a mandate to ensure that the Alberta economic
fundamentals were put in order and to pay down debt.
It happened with the economy of Ontario. The low tax regime
that Michael Harris brought forth, I would argue quite sensibly,
is responsible for the record amount of growth in our economy
over the last number of years. If Michael Harris and the economy
were not as vibrant we simply would not be collecting the
revenues in Ottawa to pay for the programs we have right now.
This is the blueprint. Our trade regime has done well, but to
retain our economic competitiveness into the future we need first
and foremost to get our economic fundamentals in order. This
means paying down our national debt. We have a moral obligation
to all future generations to pay down the $587 billion national
debt.
We have an obligation to ensure that our best, our brightest and
most adventurous can grow and prosper in this country. They
should be provided with a tax regime by which they can profit and
participate in our Canadian economy. We are losing all too fast
our best and brightest to the United States and other
jurisdictions as they seek opportunities in other countries.
The government is trying to take accolades for its one time
initiative of $2.5 billion for health care and post-secondary
education over four years. That is only a very small portion of
the large amount of money that has been taken away from our
provincial partners over the last five to six years. Before we
have any more grandiose programs, before we give any more money
to HRDC in grants and contributions, before we start reinvesting
in new made in Ottawa solutions, let us do the fundamentals
first.
Let us pay down the debt. Let us make sure that we lower the
taxes. Let us make sure that we put money in our priority
spending programs, our health care system and our post-secondary
education system in particular.
1625
I know you are of Celtic heritage as well, Mr. Speaker. I spoke
a few moments ago about the Celtic tiger. People talk about the
fact that they have lowered income taxes both corporately and
from a personal income perspective. However they have also made
it an objective, a mandate of their society, to ensure that
anybody who has the aptitude to attend university, to seek
post-secondary education, to seek training at a higher level, has
the economic capacity to do so. By that I mean post-secondary
education in their country is accessible to everyone.
Today that is simply not the case. I believe we need to make it
a common objective as a society so that every individual who
wants to can participate in this economy. I want to create a
culture of opportunity so that we can provide the necessary
skills to those individuals who want to provide for themselves by
helping them to get educated, by helping them reach the highest
level they can with respect to the economy and make the best
contribution they can. In order for us to do that we need to
make post-secondary education and training more accessible and
more affordable.
I finished school just over a decade ago. It may be a bit more
than that; I am starting to age. At that time a student debt
level of about $6,000 or $7,000 was considered extremely high. As
many members of the House know, the average student debt level
now is $25,000 to $30,000 annually. For that to quadruple in
this period of growth is a national shame.
There is one solid thing on which I would like to compliment the
finance minister. Reindexing the income tax brackets for
inflation was a very solid initiative and I applaud the
government on it.
In conclusion, I want to talk about the blueprint the country
needs, the vision that we need. Let us get our economic
fundamentals in order so that we can participate in the upcoming
century by making sure that Canada has a low tax regime, both
corporately and from a personal income perspective; that we pay
down our debt; and that we put money in the priority spending
areas of health care and post-secondary education.
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I listened intently to the member's speech and I want to
ask him a question because he talked about reduction of debt.
This is the biggest thorn in my side with respect to the budget.
In so-called good times with surpluses there is no meaningful
plan on the part of the government or the finance minister to
reduce our debt and thereby reduce the interest payments and free
up more money for actual program spending or for further tax
reductions, which would be a huge boost to the economy.
The member admitted that he is young, and compared to me he is
just a child. He may not know the answer to my question because
he was only a babe in diapers when the Conservatives were running
the country. They pretty well doubled the debt they inherited,
mostly by doing nothing about it. They continued to add to it
with deficits every year.
Why does he suppose that the Progressive Conservative Party,
with nine years of majority government, never did anything about
stopping the huge deficits it had every year during its term of
office?
1630
Mr. John Herron: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's question
was intended to be constructive and he will get a constructive
reply.
These are the facts. Quite simply during the 1984 to 1993 era
the Progressive Conservative government could have and should
have done more in terms of paring down our deficit and heading
toward balancing the budget.
To put that in perspective, in 1984 the deficit was
approximately $40 billion. The Progressive Conservative
government of the day pared down the deficit to just under $20
billion. At that time the government was clearly headed in the
right direction over the first three years. The Progressive
Conservatives were heading toward an era of actually paying down
the debt during a boom economy. I have said before that it
should have and could have done more.
During that era the Reform Party actually took flight. It would
be very wrong for Reform members to say they came about because
they were upset with the direction in which the country was going
with respect to fiscal responsibility. During that same era from
a historical perspective we were on a better track.
In 1988 and 1989 the government missed an opportunity to
continue on that track. It walked into a cold recession, one of
international magnitude which affected many economies. In the
United States the U.S. debt doubled by $2 trillion during the
Reagan and Bush administrations. It doubled in a number of
economies. One exception was the U.K. under Maggie Thatcher
which actually had a more aggressive approach during that era.
To blame only Brian Mulroney for why we had a huge deficit is
the same as blaming the whole western economy. It is the same as
blaming George Bush and Ronald Reagan for the deficits and
combined debt in the U.S. When we put it in that perspective,
deficit permissibility was in our psyche. I applaud the
Progressive Conservative government for bringing the issue to the
table and actually venting it but it missed the opportunity to do
more, I must say.
That is the context in which this debate should always be
phrased. To blame the Conservatives for the deficit, they were
heading in the right direction. They got caught up in an
international recession. It was part of the western world. It
happened in Germany under Chancellor Kohl as well. History will
speak for itself in that regard.
I thank the member for his constructive question.
Mr. Mark Muise (West Nova, PC): Mr. Speaker, I rise to
participate in the budget debate. I do so with a deep sense of
regret and disappointment. I say disappointment because like most
Canadians I believe the Liberal government missed a great
opportunity to provide all Canadians with the significant tax
relief they so richly deserve after years of suffering and making
concessions to bring the country's deficit under control.
Over the past couple of years the finance minister has told
Canadians that the country is now in a surplus position when it
comes to its finances. In normal circumstances this would be
reason to celebrate if Canadians were allowed to reap some of
those benefits. Instead they are provided with very modest tax
relief which in many ways will be felt somewhere down the road in
three or four years from now.
Canadians can no longer afford to wait much longer. They
deserve significant tax relief now. All Canadians are aware of
the billions of dollars of surplus in the EI program. The PC
party has consistently called for a significant reduction in the
EI premiums. We have suggested lowering the premiums down to $2
which is the level for long term stability recommended by the
fund's chief actuary.
Although the government would have us believe that Canadian
workers are beneficiaries of some EI premium reductions since it
took power, it seems to forget that any decreases in the EI
premium were basically washed away by the increase in CPP
premiums. That is not acceptable.
1635
The finance minister knows that high payroll taxes kill jobs, as
my hon. colleague just mentioned. We saw it and history shows
it, yet we are not doing anything about it. The Minister of
Finance once referred to high unemployment insurance premiums as
a cancer killing tax on jobs. What has happened to suddenly
change the finance minister's way of thinking? Why does he
maintain these artificially high EI premiums rather than
immediately reduce them to $2? That was recommended by the chief
actuary.
Canada has the highest personal income taxes among the G-7 and
the second highest corporate tax rate in the OECD. Naturally,
Canadians expected to hear about significant tax breaks in the
finance minister's budget. When the smoke and mirrors cleared
away, Canadians still found themselves with the highest personal
income tax rate in the G-7 and the second highest corporate tax
rate in the OECD. As a member of parliament representing a part
of the country in this hallowed institution, I do not feel proud
of that.
The Canadian Chamber of Commerce has criticized the budget for
failing to narrow the income tax gap between Canada and the U.S.
The huge gap is already responsible for the tremendous brain
drain which has and will continue to affect Canadian
productivity. We cannot continue to lose our most educated and
brightest minds to our American competitors.
A recent study by a senior researcher at the Conference Board of
Canada confirmed that there was a significant increase in the
number of permanent and non-permanent skilled emigrants to the
U.S. It went from 17,000 in 1986 to 98,000 in 1997. Many of the
emigrants are in the high tech and health care fields. There is
nothing in the budget that is going to stay the exodus of our
brightest minds in the future.
Why should Canadians celebrate this budget? The budget will do
very little to alleviate the problem facing most of Canada's
university students. Already the average debt for an
undergraduate degree from a Canadian university is approximately
$25,000 and when we tack on interest it gets to $40,000. That is
a mortgage on a young person's life which is not acceptable. It
will restrict that young person's ability to go ahead in the
future and do something worthwhile. Instead of putting something
back into the economy, he or she will be repaying that huge debt
and will be burdened by it for a long time. That is not
acceptable.
Michael Conlon of the Canadian Federation of Students said that
the finance minister's budget all but ensured that tuition fees
for post-secondary education in Canada would continue to rise. In
Nova Scotia our students already pay some of the highest fees in
the country. It is time for action before we lose more of our
most valuable minds and well-educated people.
As my hon. colleague said, the decision to provide a one time
$2.5 billion supplement to the Canada health and social transfer
payment for education and health care over four years falls far
short of what was expected by those institutions and what is
required to help maintain them. Following the budget
announcement, the Canadian Medical Association said that the one
time $2.5 billion amount was insufficient to deal with the
growing crisis in medicare. With an aging society and rising
technological costs, the small cash infusion will not address our
health care needs.
1640
According to the CMA, Canada loses approximately 400 doctors a
year to the U.S. Calls for a $6 billion increase in transfer
payments over a four year period to help fund much needed new
medical technology have been ignored by the government in lieu of
the $2.5 billion announced in the recent budget. The
government's failure to address the immediate needs of an ailing
health care system simply provides further reasons for doctors to
seek better opportunities elsewhere.
We have heard a lot recently about the possibility of having a
two tier health care system in Canada. We certainly do not want
to see such a system. The federal government is slowly trying to
push our provincial governments in that direction because of its
serious lack of commitment to the funding of Canada's health care
system.
At one time the federal government was contributing to health
care at the rate of 50%. Now only 13 cents of every dollar spent
on health care in Canada comes from the federal government.
Health care in the country is declining and the $2.5 billion over
the next four years will do nothing or very little to rectify
this serious situation. Canadians demand a far greater financial
commitment to health care than what they have seen thus far from
the Liberal government.
Just a few minutes ago I listened to my hon. colleague the
secretary of state for rural development talk about rural
communities. I represent West Nova which is predominantly a
rural community.
On January 21 a severe winter storm hit a stretch of coastline
and affected some five wharves between Port Lorne and Delaps
Cove. These wharves were severely damaged, wharves that had been
neglected over the years by the federal government. They did not
have adequate upkeep because of lack of funding. Some of these
wharves were damaged beyond repair.
What was the answer to the repair question? When it was asked
for emergency relief the government said it was going to repair
the wharves within the existing budget instead of providing the
needed emergency relief. Wharves that should have been repaired
this year and which were on a priority list will now not be
repaired because the funds will be diverted to those wharves that
were severely damaged.
The government is neglecting our rural communities. I find it
difficult when I hear my hon. colleague stand and say he supports
rural communities. It is not so. The Liberals' words say one
thing and their actions say something else.
I could go on for days and days about how serious this budget is
and how little it does for Canadians, for some of the hardest
hit, the poor. The government said it would increase the personal
exemption by $100 from $7,200 to $7,300 in one year. In this
country those who cannot feed, clothe and house themselves should
not be paying tax. That is how I see it.
I could go on but I know my time has expired.
Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to the budget today. I would
like to speak not of past successes but of opportunity.
The government is poised between this year and next, into the
next budget, to make changes that will fundamentally alter the
way government operates in its spending practices which will make
Canada's civil service one of the most efficient bureaucracies in
the world and indeed our spending practices the most efficient in
the world.
We are in a difficult time right now as a federal parliament
because the winds of change in the provinces are such that
cutting spending is all the rage and cutting taxes is all the
rage. It puts the Liberals particularly in a dilemma insofar as
we continue to believe that there is a role for government in
making things better for people in the country.
1645
Canadians have been rightly suspicious over the years, whether
it is a Liberal government, a Tory government or an NDP
government, whether it is provincial or federal, that often
taxpayers' money is not used very efficiently. The answer in the
provinces all too often has been simply to cut spending. In my
own province of Ontario that has been the typical attitude. The
Harris government began with that principle.
I have just had a note passed to me. I would say that I am
sharing my time with the hon. member for Halton, Mr. Speaker, in
case you were not aware of that.
I remember very clearly that one of the mantras of the
provincial Tories was that they would cut spending by 20%. When
one talks about hospitals, health care and all that kind of
thing, or all kinds of social service NGOs, if spending was cut
by 10% across the board it would not be the inefficient ones that
would suffer, it would be the efficient ones that would suffer.
I know of an NGO in my riding that survived the 20% cut simply by
eliminating all of its staff. It retained its administrators.
The answer is not simply to cut spending; the answer is to spend
wisely and well. I think that is where we are headed or can be
headed as a government.
I do not speak for the government. I speak as a member of
parliament. My interests are the interests of the country, not
simply the interests of my party or my government.
I believe that there is an opportunity now.
I know, for example, that the Standing Committee on Public
Accounts has been examining for some time a whole new way of
doing accounting. I know and I support this catastrophe of the
Minister of Human Resources Development. She wanted to release
all of these documents to the public and, naturally, some of the
documents were found to be wanting.
The opportunity that presents itself to governments today, and
to this government in particular, has been created by the
Internet. For the first time ever it is absolutely possible to
put all of the documents generated by the bureaucracy on grants
and contributions, bidding processes or purchases on the Internet
so that the new auditor general is not some official but can be
the people of Canada themselves.
I come into this equation in two areas because I have been very
interested in trying to bring accountability to non-profit
organizations and charities. I have been trying to get
legislation which would provide standards of transparency,
accountability and reporting. The theme behind that was simply
that when organizations send in their tax and financial
information forms to Revenue Canada, if the information could be
guaranteed to be good, then Revenue Canada could put it on the
Internet. Then, when a person came to decide whether they should
donate to one charity or another, they could call it up on the
Internet and see for themselves how efficiently that organization
was running.
I have to say that it was a great disappointment to me that the
government did not announce in this budget some movement toward
bringing legislated transparency and accountability to charities.
However, this principle of getting that information, making sure
it is good information and then making it available through the
Internet is precisely what we should be doing with all government
data that is not of a secret or confidential nature or is not an
invasion of privacy. That is enormous.
For instance, in the Department of Human Resources Development
every time an organization applies for a grant it should be
required to sign a form authorizing the government to release the
application form by which it made that grant. Then the people in
the community could see who these individuals were and the people
in the community would know fast enough whether they were
charlatans or people who were responsible and who should be
receiving government funds.
I think there is an enormous opportunity, if government seized
the opportunity. In a way, I would like to think that I am part
of that equation.
As a matter of fact, I would like to think that all private
members in the House, the backbenchers and the opposition
members, could be part of that equation because I have before the
House now, Mr. Speaker, a private member's bill that would
complement this whole principle of transparency and making
government documents available.
1650
I do not want to digress and advertise my own private member's
bill, but it is part of this entire equation of making all
government documents which should be reasonably accessible to the
public available and then put them on the Internet. What a
marvellous, marvellous move that would be.
I have to say to you, Mr. Speaker, that I admire what the
Minister of Human Resources Development tried to do. She just
sort of jumped the gun a bit. What she did was, she said “All
right, you can have all of these documents”. It is the first
time this has ever occurred in which a minister has disclosed
everything from a program of grants and contributions.
Inevitably, Mr. Speaker, there are going to be problems. That
is inevitable. I do not argue that the opposition should not be
pointing out those problems, but it should not just be the
Department of Human Resources Development, it should not just be
a minister doing it one time, it should happen all the time. It
should be constant.
Every time there is a grant or contribution or the government
makes a purchase, so long as it is not necessarily secret because
of national security or privacy, then it should be available on
the Internet. I think that is entirely possible.
I look to the future and I think that if we bring in that type
of transparency to government it will create the most efficient
bureaucracy in the world and the most efficient spending
bureaucracy in the world. Because in the end the quarrel is not
that money has been spent on social programs; the quarrel is
whether that money is actually getting to the social programs it
is supposed to get to and whether it is doing the job it is
supposed to do.
Mr. Speaker, I suggest to you that this House of Commons, my
colleagues opposite, should join me in trying to bring this to
pass, instead of, as has been occurring in the last week or so,
blocking a private member's initiative which would benefit all
Canadians, which would bring transparency on a scale that is
unheard of anywhere in the world.
I have read the American freedom of information act. It is
nowhere near as transparent as what would occur with our access
to information act if I could get the reforms I proposed in my
Bill C-206 forward.
Again, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to use my time to advertise
what is my own initiative. It is just that I urge on my
companions that it is good legislation and I would wish that
they, as backbench MPs, would support it. Actually, I have 60
backbench MPs on the Liberal side who support it. We could all
take advantage of this opportunity as MPs to change the way
government operates, to make it transparent, accountable and
effective when it uses taxpayers' dollars.
I say this not only to members of the opposition, but I say it
to my own government. The opportunity is in this next year. If
we can spend well we can save well.
I believe it is absolutely possible to spend effectively, to do
the things we have to do as a government in the economy to make
the lives of people better, but we can also save enough to make
sure that the debt goes down and we can even save on the taxes.
Because in the end it is only Ontario, British Columbia and
Newfoundland which have created this incredible example of
cutting taxes when they still have a deficit. The key thing, Mr.
Speaker, is to cut taxes when you have saved and when you know
how to spend, and spend well.
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton—Melville, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to what my
colleague across the way had to say. I want to reflect on what
he had to say about transparency and putting all of these things
on the Internet. I think that he misses a key point when he
makes that suggestion. I have no problem with being transparent.
No one would argue with that, but there is a much bigger question
that underlies all of this.
If we were to give Canadians the opportunity to look at all of
these programs and all of the grants and contributions that are
made by government, I wonder whether they would not say “I
think I am going to keep my money”.
1655
I ask the member, why should money be transferred from people
who are running a business efficiently to those who are not?
The government talks about creating jobs, so many jobs with this
particular project and so many jobs with that project, but it
never says how many jobs are destroyed by taking that money away
from Canadians who have worked hard to earn it and transferring
it to those who cannot do something properly and efficiently.
That is the key question that needs to be answered by the
government.
It talks about creating jobs but it never tells us how many are
being destroyed by high taxes. I think it is a given that high
taxes destroy jobs. What is the hon. member's response to that?
Mr. John Bryden: Mr. Speaker, there are thousands upon
thousands of grants and contributions which are made. There are
tens of thousands of purchases made by government.
The way the system works now, there are internal checks, but
they are not very good because we cannot check internally as
effectively as we can check from outside. The only outside
checks are done by the auditor general and the occasional media
person or MP who makes an access to information request. We have
to acknowledge that the access to information law, as it exists
now, is not very effective in getting the kind of information we
need.
There are thousands and thousands of grants and contributions
out there. If a bureaucrat decides to be sleepy at his task, or
fails to send a piece of paper, or fails to do anything, the
chances of him or her being discovered are absolutely minimal.
The Access to Information Act is inadequate and the number of
people who are actually looking are few.
However, if every time that bureaucrat had to pass a piece of
paper, and that piece of paper became available on the Internet,
and somebody could check it, then we would see efficiency. We
would see efficiency in the government, in the bureaucracy, that
would be unheard of in comparison to any corporation and in
comparison to any bureaucracy in the world.
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my Alliance colleague was right.
When the government takes money away from a taxpayer and gives it
to a profitable corporation all of Canada should question that.
Why would the government, in any way, shape or form, give half a
million dollars of taxpayers' money to the Wal-Mart corporation
to set up so-called jobs in the whip's riding? Why would the
government give half a million dollars to an American run
corporation that is already, by its own standards, very
successful in the commercial market?
Mr. John Bryden: Mr. Speaker, I should say at the
beginning that I am no fan of this particular type of program
that gives money to corporations of that nature.
However, I should say to the member opposite that the reason he
knows about that is because the minister disclosed all of that
documentation. That is precisely my argument.
We need to know that, not just as MPs, but the people need to
see it as it happens so they can react and say “No, not in my
riding, not in my town. Do not give the money to Wal-Mart. Do
not give it to the corporations. Give it to my small
business”. But we cannot see that.
I have had spending in my riding that has taken me completely by
surprise. I did not know about it. The only reason I could find
out about it was because the minister made those documents
available.
What I suggest we need to have happen is that we need to reform
the Access to Information Act. We need to make sure that
information is produced and is available on the Internet so that
every Canadian can become his or her own auditor general.
Mr. Julian Reed (Halton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is indeed
an honour to rise to debate the budget. It has been an honour to
rise to debate every budget we have had since 1993, since this
government came to office.
1700
The House will recall that when the government changed in 1993
we encountered a deficit situation which amounted to $42 billion.
What a difference seven years makes. I am no fan of deficit
budgeting. There was a deficit when the Tories took over. In
half the time they doubled the debt. It was becoming a travesty.
Had the situation not been turned around, there is no doubt the
International Monetary Fund would have been looking over our
shoulder. I remember one of the first tasks the Minister of
Finance was required to perform. He went to New York to calm the
fears of Wall Street.
Over that seven years we have succeeded in overcoming the
deficits and now, for the third year, are into a surplus
situation. I am told it is only the third time since
Confederation that there has been a three year run of surplus
budgeting. It has changed the whole complexion of governance. It
has changed the way we do business, and we have had to learn to
do it from an entirely different perspective.
This last budget consisted of an initial thrust into
comprehensive tax cutting. We had done a bit in some of the
years before for people with lower incomes and so on as we could
do it, and rightly so. Now the Minister of Finance has been
able to come in with a far broader based tax cut. He has also
said that as the country can afford it those tax cuts will
increase with the years.
The remarkable thing about it is that unlike our friends in the
province of Ontario it was done without maintaining a deficit
situation. We have maintained the surplus and we have built a
very strong base that will reflect very positively in the
immediate years to come.
We are into a new world, a new experience. It is expected that
in the next year we will have the second highest growth in the
G-7. The prediction is something like 3.8% and that is
remarkable because it is not accompanied by inflation. It is not
accompanied by those ghosts that sit behind us when we move
forward with a strong economy.
Mr. Art Hanger: What ghosts? The ghosts of abuse?
Mr. Julian Reed: I say to my hon. friend the ghost of
inflation is probably one of the worst ones. I also want to tell
my friend that we have been able to do something else. I am
going to defend HRDC because all members need to do is to talk to
some of the people who have been recipients of that money about
what it has done for them. Letters of thanks have come in to the
offices of members. I would say to members across the way that
they have all received money from HRDC.
An hon. member: No.
Mr. Julian Reed: None at all?
An hon. member: None.
Mr. Julian Reed: Fine, I can accept that gentleman's
comments, but the other comments are a bit hypocritical because
they have been recipients of HRDC funds. I invite them all to go
to those recipients. They have a list of whom they are. They
should go to those organizations and ask them what the money was
used for, where it went.
1705
How many people who are physically handicapped were able to be
employed because of the distribution of that money? How many
young people were able to experience their first job because of
that money? How many people were able to take retraining and
move from a very marginal existence into a well paying, permanent
job? That is what that money was intended for, and that is where
it went.
As the next few months come along that evidence will be falling
into place. I am proud to be part of that. Although I must say
that the riding of Halton, which is a contributory riding and not
a recipient riding, did not receive very much money. We did not
qualify for the transitional jobs fund in Halton because we had
an unemployment rate that was too low to do so. However, other
funding came in to Halton for other kinds of purposes. As the
months go on I think all members will receive communications from
their ridings and from the recipients saying thanks very much.
I should also remind members who are so critical of the
government that their offices spent a lot of time contacting the
minister's office at HRDC, pleading with her to speed up the
transfer of money. I am rendered speechless when I see members,
who were recipients of HRDC money and wanted as much as they
could get, stand in the House week after week criticizing the
program, all 26 programs or however many there are.
I hope those programs continue, incidentally, and I hope that
the less fortunate, the people who sincerely deserve it, are able
to get a leg up so that they can enter into the workforce full
time and with a decent income.
The budget also did some other things that are not talked about
as much and have not been talked about in the debate. There have
been $700 million invested to develop environmental technologies
and sustainable practices. Coupled with that there are increases
for the Canada Foundation for Innovation by another $900 million
to $1.9 billion. There are also $900 million over five years to
fund and sustain 2,000 chairs for research excellence at the
universities. All these things dovetail together so that the
investment in sustainability and in sustainable technologies for
the future has really received a boost.
We are in a situation now where I think there is a general
acceptance that global warming is a reality. We all see evidence
that comes to us every now and again. The most recent one last
week was when we learned that the oceans in the last 50 years
have risen in temperature by half a degree. We also saw the
satellite shot where the big ice shelf in the Antarctic has now
broken away. It is twice the size of Prince Edward Island.
These things are cause for great concern, for if the oceans rise
one metre hundreds of millions of souls will be displaced and
will have to move away. In China the figure is something like 95
million should the oceans rise.
1710
We are looking forward into a new era, and I am pleased to be
part of the team that has brought Canada from the brink.
Ms. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Madam Speaker, I
have a question for the hon. member. He was praising what was in
the budget for education. I am wondering if a more substantial
approach in the budget for education might have been to give
students who are in debt up to their eyeballs a break and maybe
allow them to deduct their student loans.
However, the government says it will make it a little easier for
those who are getting scholarships or bursaries. That is very
commendable, but why not put something in the budget that gets to
the core of the problem and allows students who are in debt up to
their eyeballs because of the government's approach to cutting
education dollars to claim that as a tax deduction?
Mr. Julian Reed: Madam Speaker, I remind my hon. friend
about the millennium scholarship fund which is designed to assist
students to go to university, especially those who come from
families with lower incomes. I am very sympathetic to the real
problem the member raised. We are certainly doing everything we
can within the limits of the available funding. As the Minister
of Finance said, as soon as we can do more we will.
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton—Melville, Canadian
Alliance): Madam Speaker, the hon. member made a comment. He
told us to talk to the recipients of grants. Obviously if people
are receiving a lot of money they will say it is just great.
I have a question. Why not talk to all the people who are
donating the money? What about all the people who have to donate
money to that project? Why not talk to them? They are the
taxpayers of the entire country. He tells us to talk to the
people who are getting jobs because of it. What about all the
people who are having their jobs destroyed because of it?
In my province of Saskatchewan farmers have to move off the
land. Their livelihood, their jobs are being destroyed because
of high taxation. They have to donate money to these billion
dollar boondoggles and they are getting fed up. How about
talking to the people donating money and losing their jobs
because of mismanagement?
Mr. Julian Reed: Madam Speaker, the citizens of the great
riding of Halton are the people who donate the money. We have
the honour of having one of the highest per household incomes and
therefore the highest levels of taxation in Canada. I talk to
the people every election time.
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, I want to ask the member a question along the same
lines. I think my colleague was overly kind when he said the
people who are donating. The fact of the matter is that the
taxman reaches into our pockets and takes the money. We are
considered very bad citizens if we do not fully comply with his
request.
I am not against taxation per se. Farmers in western Canada are
going bankrupt partially because of the huge tax load and now the
added high fuel costs with huge federal taxes. Taxes are killing
farmers and this is the money that is being used to presumably
create jobs. It is killing thousands of jobs across the country
and killing the small business of farming in Saskatchewan and
Manitoba.
Mr. Julian Reed: Madam Speaker, I was a farmer. It was a
non-profit business but it did not start out that way. I have
great sympathy for farmers in western Canada and what they are
going through. I am not an accountant, but if I were an
accountant at tax time, it would seem to me that the taxes
farmers pay are input costs that are deductible.
1715
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz: No they are not. They are built
right in.
Mr. Julian Reed: Which ones are not deductible?
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz: Excise tax on fuel.
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, I find this debate very interesting and enjoyable. The
only thing that confuses me every once and a while is how far
away from the facts the hon. members across the way seem to be
from time to time.
I wish to address the budget from a principled point of view. It
has to do with what exactly is a budget. A budget reveals the
values and the priorities of the government. It also reveals,
indirectly and directly, the character of the people who wrote or
constructed it.
I wish to present four very elementary principles of what a
budget should do. First, it should be achievable. Second, it
should be sustainable. Third, it should help Canadians achieve
their goals and objectives. Finally, it should help Canadians
realize their dreams.
How did budget 2000 fair on those principles? First, is it
achievable? I suppose if interest rates do not rise very much,
it is achievable. We will grant that one. Is it sustainable? I
would suggest that, no, it is not sustainable unless Canadians
are prepared to stop loading onto future generations the
expenditures on programs that they enjoy. It may also be
achievable if it stops the brain drain by reducing taxes. The
way it stands now it will not do that. The taxation regimes are
so burdensome that people are taking their money out of Canada
and investing it elsewhere. So it is not sustainable.
It will not allow Canadians to achieve their goals and
objectives either. I know that more than 50% of the money we
earn should be discretionary. If I am to achieve my goals and
objectives, I should have discretion over how that money is
spent. When the government takes 55% of that then I have lost
55% of my discretion over my money. I cannot achieve the goals
and objectives that I want. I cannot own my own home, I cannot
give my children the post-secondary education that I want them to
have and I cannot have the entrepreneurial application of capital
so that businesses can be developed. It will not help Canadians
realize their dreams of their children and grandchildren having a
better life than the one they enjoy.
The budget fails on at least three of the four principles we
talked about.
I asked myself the question: What is the vision of the
government? Is it to pay down the debt? A little while ago, the
hon. member opposite said that the government was paying down the
debt. That is such a nominal amount that if we divide the amount
of money that it is putting toward paying down the debt, which is
roughly $3 billion a year, it will take 200 years to pay down the
debt. That is a 200 year vision to pay down the debt.
The other question I have is: Is the government's vision to
reduce taxes? I looked at it and it sounded really good. Over
five years we will have a reduction of $58 billion in tax cuts.
Notice that it is not a reduction in taxes. It is a cut in taxes.
What it did not say was what the increase would be in taxes over
that same time period.
Let me give members a specific example. EI premiums will go
down but CPP premiums will go up. Guess what? The EI premiums
went down less than the CPP premiums went up. The end result is
that the individual pays more in taxes than before the cuts took
place. That is some cut.
What would the Canadian Alliance do? I could criticize the
budget in some many different ways but I will not do that. The
Canadian Alliance is committed to principled and substantive
fiscal responsibility, in particular tax relief. How do I know
that? I know it by solution 17.
Solution 17 is a single rate tax. I will not go through all the
particular features and specifics of that but I will deal with a
few of them and some of the benefits.
What hon. members opposite and what we as colleagues in the
Canadian Alliance are saying is that we want specifics but we
also want to know why we have those characteristics. The first of
those is to increase the base tax exemption to $10,000. That
would take some 1.9 million taxpayers off the tax roll. We would
have a single marginal tax rate of 17% and we would eliminate the
5% surtax. What would that do for Canadians?
Right off the top, it would eliminate the discrimination of
single income families versus dual income families. Why should a
single income family be penalized and the advantage given to a
dual income family? It is unfair, it is inequitable and it does
not build strong families.
1720
There is another part to this. It will also help to reduce the
brain drain. It will probably not stop it, because taxes are
still too high, but it will at least help to discourage the brain
drain. It will also encourage the entrepreneurial spirit of
young people. It will allow individuals to apply their capital
to build enterprises here in this country and develop the skill
and talent that will make more money and increase the economy.
We will have a universal child care deduction of $3,000 per
child. What will this do? It will support the freedom of
choice. If there was one thing that democracy did it was to give
us freedom of choice. We want that. Here is a tax plan that
will do that. It will leave the money in the hands of the
parents so that they can choose the kind of child care that they
believe is best for their children, not some kind of state run
system where the government tells them this is where they should
send their kids.
That particular tax plan also suggests that the RRSP
contributions should be increased to $16,500. What is the
benefit of that? The benefit of that is that it improves the
incentive for individuals to look after their own retirement.
What is the great benefit of this? It makes it totally and
completely transferable and we do not have all of these
complications of succession duties or of transfer of funds from
one generation to another.
It has all the advantages for which we could possibly dream. It
has the general corporate tax reduced from 28% to 21%, seven
percentage points. That is a tremendous increase and allows
these businesses to hire more people. That is the kind of job
creation scheme we should have. We should not be doling out
money. We should be giving it to entrepreneurs so they can
develop the kind of expansion in their business and hire the
people that they need. That is the kind of tax plan we need.
The small business tax was reduced from 12% to 10%. It is a
similar set of arguments, only this time for small business.
That is what the Canadian Alliance would do, and it is solution
17.
How does it differ from budget 2000? First, it differs
remarkably by being specific, clear and sustainable. That is the
big difference. It will give to Canadians the tools whereby they
can achieve the goals and objectives they have for themselves and
for their children and grandchildren. It will allow them to
build and to realize some of the dreams that they have.
Some people say that we are dreaming in technicolour and that it
cannot possibly ever be because solution 17 is not that good of a
plan. Let me read to the House the conclusion by the people who
put together the examination of that plan. This was not a group
of Reformers who are now Canadian Alliance. It was not our
people who did it. This was an independent group, the same group
that does the numbers for the Government of Canada, the Liberal
government. The conclusion reads:
The tax reduction proposals...are well focused on the needs of
Canadians today. They expand the economy, and most powerfully:
personal disposable income, consumption and our standard of
living. They create jobs. By lowering the marginal tax rates
they are particularly effective in stimulating work effort, and
stemming the brain drain and other productivity enhancing
features. By powerfully reducing the level of personal income
tax, particularly for Canadians of average and above average
income, they are well directed at providing a more competitive
tax environment in Canada relative to the U.S.
These are not my words and they are not the words of the
Canadian Alliance. These are the words of an independent group
that looked at that plan and said that it will work. We should
listen.
The tax reduction proposals of the Reform Party, now the
Canadian Alliance, are affordable. If all the tax reduction
proposals are introduced as a combined package over the 2001 to
2004 or 2005 period, there would still be a fiscal surplus in
each and every year. That is very significant and we should pay
very careful attention to it.
It is time for a change. It is necessary to recognize that
there is an alternative to the Government of Canada today, a
government that is there to build an achievable and sustainable
budget that will indeed reduce taxes and leave in the hands of
the taxpayers the disposition of their disposable income so that
they can achieve the goals and objectives for themselves and for
their children.
1725
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC): Madam Speaker, I
agree with many of the comments my hon. colleague made in his
speech.
We do not see the division that we had perhaps in 1988 that
actually created the growth in our economy with respect to the
free trade agreement. As I mentioned earlier in my speech, our
trade with the Americans was around $90 billion and it is now
$260 billion.
If we had any kind of a downturn in the economy, particularly in
the American economy, does the hon. member think our economic
fundamentals are in order now? Do we really have a plan to
actually reduce taxes so that we can ensure that we are still
competitive here in Canada? Is there a plan for us to actually
pay down the debt?
Mr. Werner Schmidt: Mr. Speaker, there is as far as the
Canadian Alliance is concerned. I think the underlying
assumption that the hon. member has made is a very significant
one. He is almost implying that the Canadian economy could exist
independent of the American economy or independent of any other
nation in the world.
The world has changed dramatically in the last while. It is now
a global economy. A major part of our economic benefit comes
from trade with other nations. The major part of that is of
course the American economy, the United States, our excellent
neighbours to the south. We benefit from them and they benefit
from us. It is a mutual and beautiful symbiotic relationship.
If there was a downturn in the American economy would it affect
us? Of course it would. It is simply nonsensical to suggest
that it would not affect us. Do we have a plan to deal with that
situation? I wish I had an hour to tell the hon. member about
that, but I will tell him how much the output costs are of every
job creating scheme that has been created by his government the
Conservative Party, when it was in power, or when the Liberals
were in power. Does he realize that for every tax dollar that is
given away in the form of job creation schemes, there is an
output cost? For payroll taxes, it is 27 cents. For every
dollar that is put out in a job creation scheme, 27 cents is lost
in output costs. For the sales tax it is roughly 17 cents. For
capital costs it is $1.15 for every $1.
Is it any wonder that people are discouraged when they see all
these millions of dollars going there? In fact, Jim Mirrlees,
who developed the optimum tax theory, has clearly indicated that
by applying that to the Canadian billion dollar HRDC system it
actually costs the Canadian economy $529 million in order to give
away $1 billion.
What is the net gain? It is not nearly as much as what the
government is suggesting. It kills jobs in other places. It
kills expansion and it does not last.
Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I
listened to the member's speech and I disagreed with it almost
from the beginning to the end.
I believe very strongly in the balanced approach. He knows well
that the economy depends on all sorts of things. I believe in
paying down the debt. We have paid down $20 billion in market
debt and almost $10 billion in internal debt. I believe in tax
cuts. We have made tax cuts once we had balanced the books.
I do strongly believe in reinvestment. Government has a
tremendous role which Canadians support in our society. This
government is reinvesting in Canadians, both Canadians who are
making money and in Canadians who are at risk, are having great
difficulties or are in ill health. It is a balanced approach.
The member keeps using a term that I do not understand. What is
this Canadian Alliance he keeps speaking about?
Mr. Werner Schmidt: Madam Speaker, that is absolutely
tremendous. I would love to enlighten the hon. member as to what
this Canadian Alliance is. I will tell him what the Canadian
Alliance is. The Canadian Alliance is the alternative to the
Liberal government. This is a brand new party that has just been
created. It received 91.9% support in Calgary last Saturday
night, March 25, if the hon. member needs to know the date. That
is the Canadian Alliance.
With regard to the balanced approach, yes, I am totally involved
in the balanced approach. Let us pay down the debt so we have a
balanced budget.
1730
Mr. Howard Hilstrom (Selkirk—Interlake, Canadian
Alliance): Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to speak to the
budgetary policy of the government.
I note that many members today have said that Canada's growth in
regard to the other G-7 countries is very good, in the
neighbourhood of the third best I believe. I certainly agree
that the economy is doing well. I would probably disagree with
the government as to how much is a direct result of its actions.
Let us look at this growth and what the government does with the
money that comes to it which is to be used for programs and other
things in Canada.
Let us start with health care. It is my understanding that
health care is funded at about a 1994-95 level. Thousands and
thousands of Canadians are left standing in waiting lines because
there is no MRI machine, bed or some other facility for them to
receive the medical treatment they need. Education also seems to
be underfunded. Why?
On a first nations reserve in my riding of Selkirk—Interlake,
the Fairford Indian reserve, why are hundreds of people living in
construction trailers? We could fly out there today and see
people living in construction trailers with no bathrooms, at
eight or ten degrees below zero. If there is money in the
government and it is running massive surpluses, why are people
living in construction trailers? I do not understand it.
This may be part of the answer to my second question. The
Corbière decision referred to off reserve aboriginal people
having the right to vote in reserve elections. Why is the money
going to the assembly of chiefs to look at this issue instead of
the very people that are off the reserves and need the funding in
order to exercise that franchise on the reserves?
It shows that the spending is wasteful and the government has
its priorities wrong. That first nation which I spoke of is a
real sad situation. Church services are currently being held in a
small building because the original church burned down.
Those are sad commentaries on how the government is handling its
budget. I will now go on with some straightforward suggestions
and programs it could be utilizing.
Agriculture has some real bright spots but it also has some
problems. It is the government's responsibility in dealing with
the budget to deal with problems. The 2000 budget certainly did
not offer any long term plan for the future of farming in Canada.
There was an announcement of $400 million between the federal
government and the provinces for Manitoba and Saskatchewan. That
had been announced previous to the budget but it was announced
again so the government could get double mileage out of it.
The government left out every other province and farmers are
hurting in the other provinces as well. At least Alberta had the
backbone and common sense to say that it could not leave its
farmers unprotected from foreign subsidies. In place of the
federal government taking some action regarding the farmers, the
Alberta government said it was going to pay out $4.29 an acre and
give the farmers some help. This was done in time for spring
seeding. The money is already on the way.
The budget failed to do a number of things. It failed to
provide meaningful or timely emergency compensation to farmers
that were suffering from other countries' trade distorting
subsidies. That is something that could have been done.
1735
Of the previous money the government had already made out under
AIDA, that was a fine, good program in the that it had money in
it but the delivery has been a disaster. Around 25% or 26% of
that money has been delivered when the promise was that for
1998-99 it would all be delivered in time for seeding in the
previous year and this spring. We still have not seen that.
The ongoing scandal at the federal human resources department is
another example that the government does not know how to deliver
program money. When it wants to use money for political purposes,
it can simply shovel the money out the door.
The government has an opportunity in a budget to reduce taxes.
In regard to agriculture, the federal excise tax on gasoline
could have been reduced. It is four cents. Farms particularly in
western Canada but also in other parts of the country have large
fuel bills. Fuel is one of their major expenses.
In Ontario just south of here the Oxford County Federation of
Agriculture has estimated that farmers will pay between 48% and
50% more on their fuel costs than they did a year ago. In my
riding of Selkirk—Interlake we were buying fuel at approximately
28 cents to 29 cents a litre. When I last looked at a bill a few
weeks ago it is up in the range of 40 cents to 45 cents. The
hurt that is being felt in Oxford county is being felt right
across the country.
The Liberal government does not quite get it and its individual
members of parliament do not understand. Last Sunday the member
for Oxford was quoted as saying that a reduction in fuel taxes
would do little to help farmers so just leave the taxes on. I do
not know how that rationale applies, “We cannot help you very
much so we will not help you at all”. It is time to say give me
a break because the government should be doing everything
possible, even the little things, to help farmers, aboriginal
people and people with low incomes. There are thousands of places
where the government could be doing a much better job.
The government continues to charge user fees. The auditor
general has indicated time and time again that he is not sure who
the beneficiary is or who should actually be charged a user fee.
In the cases of the ones being applied against agriculture, they
are not being reduced. They are continuing to be applied and
that further reduces the income of farmers who are having a tough
time.
Fighting high foreign subsidies is also something the government
could be doing. In our trade with France for instance, it has a
surplus of about $2.5 billion over what Canada exports to that
country. It would seem to me that is a fairly strong negotiating
tool that we could use in our negotiations with the European
Union and France to get them to lower their subsidies.
The standing committee on agriculture had an interesting
presentation from the National Farmers Union. Its economic
theory sounded a lot like that of the New Democratic Party. It
does not believe that subsidies have any effect on the amount of
grain that would be produced by a farmer. I do not think even
Liberal members believe that economic theory. It was a pretty
interesting presentation.
I can only sum up by saying that the government does not seem to
be listening to farmers. I will conclude by saying what farmers
do want. They want a voluntary Canadian Wheat Board. They want a
commercial contracts based grain transportation system. They
want simple, predictable long term safety net disaster programs.
They want good health care and good education. They want a future
for their children in agriculture.
1740
Farmers do not want the Firearms Act, Bill C-68 of years ago.
They do not want the Canadian Wheat Board allocating rail cars
causing inefficiencies. They do not want the Liberal government
ruining trade relations with the United States thereby driving
down their incomes even further.
As a Canadian Alliance member, I am really pleased to be in the
House serving the constituents of Selkirk—Interlake.
Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Madam Speaker, the
member mentioned taxes on gasoline and I know he did not mean the
GST because farmers get it back as a rebate. Excise tax on
diesel is four cents a litre, the lowest in the G-8 countries. It
is 10 cents a litre on gasoline. Because this is a business cost,
farmers get some of that back. I would support lowering these
taxes.
The member misquoted one of my colleagues. I see the problem
this way. Frank McKenna took three cents a litre off gasoline a
few years ago resulting in the price going down for a day or two.
The following week it was back up at the same level. The three
cents which had been taken off was not going to the consumers but
it was going to the oil companies which were already making too
much money.
I wonder if the member would ask his provincial government to
regulate the price of gasoline in his province in such a way that
the taxes that were cut by the federal government would genuinely
flow not to the oil companies but to the farmers whom he claims
to represent.
Mr. Howard Hilstrom: Madam Speaker, certainly the federal
excise tax of four cents is on Canadian farm fuel. The hon.
member asked about the G-8 countries. The farm subsidies in the
G-8 countries are much higher and as a result, the cost of their
fuel is incorporated into those subsidies whereas ours is not.
We need to eliminate the four cents.
In regard to regulating fuel, I think the member is going back
to the old days of Pierre Trudeau and the wage and price
controls. We remember the fiasco that caused. The big government
of the Pierre Trudeau era is not the kind of regulation we want
in this country, a controlled economy which does not work.
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Madam Speaker, does the hon. member for
Selkirk—Interlake and his new party believe that the dismantling
of the Crow rate was a good thing or a bad thing for farmers?
Mr. Howard Hilstrom: Madam Speaker, the dismantling of
the Crow rate has been a good thing for farmers. What was bad was
the Liberal government reduced subsidies after getting rid of the
Crow rate in other areas much faster than our competitors did.
The reduction in the subsidies was a big problem.
Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris—Moose Mountain, Canadian
Alliance): Madam Speaker, I have in my office a photocopy of a
cheque stub belonging to a young farmer who lives just north of
me. This young man took off some grain during damp weather. Two
semi trucks arrived from the grain terminal and he received 61
cents a bushel cash advance. By the time the trucking and the
freight was paid this individual picked up a cheque for $1.47.
That is as true as I am standing here.
I ask my colleague from Selkirk—Interlake, if this present
trend continues in the west, what will it take to save it from
complete abandonment of the agriculture industry?
1745
Mr. Howard Hilstrom: Madam Speaker, part of the answer
lies in the answer I was giving to the member from the NDP. When
the Crow rate disappeared, farmers in western Canada saw a big
livestock industry being created with our feed grains being used
on the prairies.
We are raising a lot of the hogs and cattle that were formerly
being raised in Ontario and Quebec due to western Canada having
the competitive advantage and eastern Canada having the advantage
of the Crow rate to get our cheap feed grain. Now we have the
packing plants and the production in the west, which is helping.
Ontario and Quebec still have a lot of that production, which is
also good.
With respect to the current farm income crisis, certainly the
government should be supporting our farmers closer to the levels
at which our foreign competitors, the U.S. and EU, are supporting
theirs.
Mr. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, it has been a delight to listen to some of this rather
curious debate.
This is either the last day of the Reform Party or the first day
of the Canadian Alliance, however one wants to cut it.
When we talk about the budget and saving money, I have a couple
of questions to put forward in a rhetorical sense and members
opposite can decide whether they wish to respond.
I would like to know, for example, if the former leader of the
Reform/Canadian Alliance Party is sleeping in Stornoway tonight.
I am not trying to be difficult. I would not want to see that
man and his lovely wife out on the streets of Ottawa. Lord
knows, we have a homeless problem and we do not want to
exacerbate it. Is the moving van in the driveway and is the new
leader of the Canadian Alliance moving in? Maybe they are all
going to bunk together and have a pyjama party. That is a
possibility.
There is another question which has not been addressed, which
impacts on the fiscal responsibility of the government and
opposition parties. Who has been paying the salary of the
individual who is the immediate past leader of the Reform Party?
Who has been paying the salary, which is not only an MP's salary
but is also a salary that is afforded the Leader of the
Opposition, along with a limousine, which of course he was not
going to use? We remember that. With the limousine there is a
chauffeur. That is why they call them limos, I am told.
Who has been paying for all that for the past three months as
that individual travelled the nation to sell his vision of a new
united alternative? In all fairness, the party which stands in
this place and purports to hold the feet of the government to the
fire on fiscal and financial matters should be responsible enough
to tally up the bill for living in Stornoway, that illustrious
bingo hall down the road, and for using the limousine for the
past three months while the member openly campaigned from sea to
sea to sea for his own purposes, to further his own career.
What about all the staff time? Was his staff working in the
leader's office, concentrating on the business of parliament, of
a member of parliament or of the Leader of the Opposition? Or,
were they in some surreptitious manner helping this individual to
sell his so-called vision?
I wish that one day we could turn the tables and have someone
from this side of the House ask a question of the Leader of the
Opposition. I would like to ask him to explain what I suspect
would be hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars spent
on campaigning to bury the old Reform Party and somehow launch
the new.
1750
An hon. member: There is the real boondoggle.
Mr. Steve Mahoney: That is right. There is the real
boondoggle. Good line. I wish I had thought of it.
Madam Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for
Don Valley West.
Another point that needs to be looked at, once we get over the
fiscal situation, are the principles. Just a short time ago a
member opposite stood to talk about principles. It seems to me
that the Canadian Alliance and principles is an oxymoron. Or,
could it be that its members have discarded their support of the
National Rifle Association and Charlton Heston? Or, could it be
that while they buried the Reform Party, they buried that policy
which calls for the elimination of any form of subsidy to the
Canadian farmer? Is that possible? Have they actually gone into
the shower and rid themselves of all of those so-called
principles and policies? I think not.
Could it be that they are somehow hoping to ride into town on
the wave of the new Reverend Day, who will come here with guns
blazing, shouting his particular brand of political right wing
extremism and the Canadian public will forget about everything
they have said in the past few years?
Mr. Ken Epp: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
As a member of the finance committee, I would say that we are
here to discuss the budget. I would really like you, Madam
Speaker, to ask this member to be relevant to the debate.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The hon. member has
somewhat of a point. I would ask the hon. member to keep his
speech on the budget.
Mr. Steve Mahoney: Madam Speaker, I can understand that
the members opposite do not want me discussing the spending
habits of their former leader. I do not mind the fact that they
would raise some concern about that. In relationship to this
budget, could it be that the newest baby born in this place has
somehow changed its spots? I think not.
Let us talk about health care. I do not care what we want to
call it, but we have a party which clearly would abandon and
scrap the Canada Health Act. If that would not have an impact on
the budget—
An hon. member: That is a lie.
Mr. Steve Mahoney: The member says that is a lie. The
former leader of the former Reform Party who used to occupy those
benches has called for the scrapping of the Canada Health Act
without any kind of plan or explanation as to what it would be
replaced with. I can tell members what it would be replaced
with. It would be replaced with a privatized, U.S. style health
care system which the Prime Minister, the Minister of Health and
this government would not stand for.
We could look at delivery mechanisms.
What I find really interesting is the confusion of members
opposite of all parties. I do not want to single out members of
the fifth party. It has been purported that the only safe seat
is occupied by the member for Fundy—Royal. That was probably
true before his leader opened his mouth in support of some
privatization of health care coming from western Canada. That
might have been true before the divisions in his party occurred
when his leader did not support the clarity bill, one of the
finest and clearest pieces of legislation ever put through this
place. And yet other members over there did not agree with their
leader. We can understand their confusion.
Let us talk about health care. This government is committed. The
CHST payments have an established floor of a $11.5
billion. Members opposite were crying for nothing more than tax
cuts leading up to the last budget. What happened? After we set
the floor at $11.5 billion, after we provided $58 billion in tax
relief, after we completely eliminated the $42 billion deficit
left to us by the great legacy of the Conservative Party, after
we invested in science and technology, created new seats in
universities for our future, worked with our youth, helped in
retraining, worked with people who were unemployed—after we
did all of those things—we also provided tax cuts.
1755
Then what happened? They stood and said “You have not
transferred enough to health care”.
We put an additional $2.5 billion on the table for health care.
Guess what? We found out that last year, when we put an
additional $3.5 billion on the table for health care, the
provinces of Quebec and Ontario chose not to use that money.
They left it sitting in a trust account, wisely invested I am
sure.
I do not understand. The people in my province and in my riding
do not understand how they could eliminate beds in hospitals, how
they could fill up emergency departments, how they could
continually cry for more money to be given to health care, and
then it comes out that they have not even spent the money that
was allocated to them.
If anyone over there thinks that the government is about to
write blank cheques for anything, they are sadly mistaken. The
health care system must be accountable. It must be accessible to
all, as we know, and the government will ensure that happens.
However, we will not do it by simply throwing money at a problem
without a clear direction with all health ministers in the
country, from all provinces and territories, sitting down with
our health minister and working out a deal to ensure that we have
sustainable, affordable, accessible health care for generations
to come.
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC): Madam Speaker, I
listened with great interest to the hon. member's speech. His
speech was very indicative of what we saw in the terrible budget
that was tabled a few weeks back.
During essentially 70% of his speech he never uttered the words
“tax cut”. When the rest of the industrialized world is taking
giant leaps to reduce taxes, the government is taking baby steps
and jeopardizing this country's competitiveness well into the
future.
When will the government grow up and learn what a tax cut really
is?
Mr. Steve Mahoney: Madam Speaker, it is really
interesting to get a lecture from a member of the Conservative
Party on tax cuts and fiscal management. We know that the former
leader of that party, the former Prime Minister and his
government, introduced the GST. We know that. We understand
that the Conservatives did that. We understand that they
introduced the excise tax on gasoline. We understand that they
did that.
At the same time, we understand that while the Conservatives
want to stand and cheer on some of their accomplishments, they
left office with an overdraft of $42 billion, with record debt,
with an inability for the government to have any flexibility to
deal with its fiscal program without making serious changes in
the relationships that existed with everyone in the country.
This government bit the bullet. Now we are rewarding Canadians
for their hard work by making those tax cuts.
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Madam Speaker, again I listened intently to my
colleague from the Liberal Party. He quotes numbers like $2.5
billion for health care. The reality is that $2.5 billion
announced in the budget is for health care, education and other
social programs over a four year period. It is not just destined
for health care.
If he is convinced that the health care announcement which the
government made is so positive, why is every premier and
territorial leader in the country upset and why is every other
person who has ever accessed health care in the country, who has
used home care and so on, upset with the Liberal government?
Several members on the other side, the Atlantic caucus as they
call it, produced a document called “Catching the Wave”.
In that document they called upon the government to introduce a
shipbuilding policy, and I notice that the budget completely left
that out.
1800
On Wednesday we will be having a vote on Bill C-213 from the
Bloc Quebecois. We will be initiating that. Will the hon.
member be supporting the other Liberal members of his caucus in
supporting a very important initiative for shipbuilding policy in
the country? The budget certainly was not inclusive in that
regard.
Mr. Steve Mahoney: Madam Speaker, the member opposite
knows full well that a budget is a document that shows leadership
and gives direction for policies. He is talking about a specific
issue that would have to do with economic development. The
government has led the way in terms of economic development.
I want to respond to the hon. member. I am not sure what his
question really was because I heard him taking the opportunity to
bash us again on health care and then saying that was not his
question. Let us be clear. The government set the level of
transfer payments at $11.5 billion. We added $2.5 billion to it.
We are committed to a sustainable health care program without a
doubt, but we will not simply open the vault and write a blank
cheque. That is not what the Canadian public wants.
While I am at it, let me suggest to the member that there is no
one responsible in the country who would suggest that somehow the
provincial governments should wash their hands of their
responsibility as taxing authorities with relation to health
care. They cannot have it both ways. They cannot take transfers
from the federal treasury, invest them in some kind of savings
account and then cry poor to the federal government. The member
opposite might want to make political mileage out of that, but
the Canadian people will not be fooled because they know better.
Mr. John Godfrey (Don Valley West, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
I take this opportunity to talk a bit about a subject which
relates to some of the previous interventions. For example, the
member for Selkirk—Interlake talked about the poor condition of
aboriginal families in his province. Those aboriginal people
have children who are in even worse condition, so my subject is
the fate and the presence of children in the most recent budget.
There were those of us both within the government caucus and
across the way who agitated and worked for a children's and
families' budget to be the theme of this year's millennium
budget. I am looking at the hon. member for Shefford as one of
the allies in this cause. In some ways we were a little
disappointed. We did not get the package deal we wanted.
However, let me tell the House what we did get and what we hoped
to get. Part of the function of a budget speech is not only to
look back to the budget but to look forward to the next budget,
to the great unfinished work we have before us.
Those of us who agitate and work on behalf of children and their
families see that the children and their families need two
things. They need more income but they also need support at the
community level with services. I particularly talk about the
case of parents with young pre-school children.
What was good about the budget from the point of view of child
and family policy was that we focused on three matters of income.
First, we reduced taxes which put more disposable income in the
hands of families with young children. Second, because we wanted
to make a statement that the early years are the most important
years, we extended the parental benefit system from six months to
a year for those children who are born after December 31, 2000.
Third, we increased the amount available for the child tax credit
and the national child benefit system.
All those things are important because they put more disposable
income in the hands of families with young children, but
disposable income alone will not be the answer to what families
need.
1805
What families need in their daily lives is for there to be a
system of support at the community level. Whatever choices they
may make in the workplace, whether they choose to work inside or
outside the home, and whatever degree of risk their children may
or may not be exposed to, the community will be there for them.
With the change in family life over the last 30 years we know
that the traditional role of community fulfilled by informal
networks has disappeared. With 70% of Canadian women of child
bearing age working either part time or full time, we know that
neighbourhoods have changed.
It was therefore interesting to look at the unfinished work of
the budget, the first social project of the 21st century for this
parliament, and the following words of the finance minister in
his speech:
That is why federal and provincial governments agreed to develop
a national children's agenda, to expand the capacity of
governments, voluntary organizations and our communities to
provide the services and support upon which so many of our
families and their children rely.
He pointed to the hope of the government for a national action
plan to be arrived at by December of this year, with provincial
governments on a system of support services at the community
level to help young children and their families.
This will be the first great test of the social union framework
agreement. It will require the provinces and the federal
government to sit down and work out what a national action plan
would mean that would allow communities to access an early
childhood development services fund to do a better job in filling
in the gaps, which we all know to be present in our communities,
if we are in the business of raising young children.
This will be an extraordinarily important and difficult
operation. I hope we arrive at such an agreement but it will
require the agreement of the provinces. It will require the
support of communities to show us what they would do with the
money. It will require the support of parents in whatever
situation they find themselves to put pressure on us as
politicians to do it. In turn, I hope it will trigger in the next
budget a fund for community development services for our youngest
children.
This will not be an easy matter, but what I find so heartening
is that within this caucus and across parliament there are people
who are dedicated to improving the lives of children and their
families.
All of us understand that the magic of a democratic society
rests in its civil society, in its neighbourhoods and
communities. The family may be the building block upon which we
construct family policy without understanding the magic of
community. Why is it that some communities do a better job in
preparing young children for school and making them confident
about their future? Why is it that other communities with the
same or more income do not do such a good job? It goes beyond
income. It goes to the matter of social cohesion. It goes to
the things which will overcome income if we do it right.
You have in your constituency, Mr. Speaker, a community which
does this job. Port Colborne is an example of an area which goes
beyond income to produce a kind of wovenness. Our challenge as
we look to the future budget is to support such communities. The
federal government and the provinces should sit down together on
a national action plan that will put in place the things families
need, whether it is child care, parenting resources, parenting
courses, drop-in centres, playgrounds, nutrition programs, and in
particular nutrition programs for expectant mothers because that
is when so much crucial brain development takes place.
We need to put in place a system so that every family knows
where to find the support it needs and we do not have mothers
living in isolation, cut off from the community. We need to do
it in a way which recognizes the character of every Canadian
community. If we do our job well we reduce the risks all
Canadian children experience.
1810
What is so terrifying about our situation? It is true that
poverty is a major risk factor for Canadian children and that 40%
of poor children experience emotional or learning difficulties
when they are in school. It is also true that 20% of the best
off children in the country also experience those risks. There
are more middle class children with emotional and learning
difficulties in school than poor children because the middle
class is so much bigger.
My plea is for all of us as we look to next year's budget to
understand that we have a great piece of work ahead of us in
working toward a national action plan to provide services at the
community level for Canada's children. If we do our job right,
this may be the greatest thing for which all of us will
ultimately be remembered.
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I listened to the Liberals promise
a future for our children and for health care. Yet they still
have not been able to maintain their 1993 promise on the day care
concern across the country. They also failed to break their
promise on the GST.
On the child tax credit, which they talked an awful lot about,
they never put in strict guidelines to say that provinces could
not claw that money back. This happens now in my province. My
fear is that with the additional money through the child tax
credit again the province of Nova Scotia will claw that money
back because the federal government refuses to tell the province
that under no circumstances can that money be clawed back. I
would like the hon. member's comments on that.
Mr. John Godfrey: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member may be
surprised to know that I agree with him on two issues. Some of
us who ran in the 1993 election and took the promise of a
national child care strategy seriously do not consider that
promise stale dated. Some of us believe it is an ideal toward
which we should be working.
We also understand it is only part of a bundle of services that
have to be undertaken at the community level. We do not restrict
ourselves to the vision of a national child care strategy, though
it would be central to the piece I have described on community.
With regard to the clawback provision and the looseness of the
reinvestment framework strategy for the national child benefit, I
agree with him again. Whatever else we do in our national action
plan we must make sure that a kind of discipline is imposed on
ourselves and on the provinces. That discipline will come
through the social union framework agreement when we allow
ourselves to look at outcomes, to be held accountable to the
Canadian public and to make outcomes like school readiness or
birth weight, for example, part of the whole package in the
accountability regime. We are not as far apart as he might have
thought.
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC): Mr. Speaker, one
part of the speech I did not pick up was actually mentioned by a
couple of members. The government has allocated more revenues
with respect to the environment. We all know that the
environment was the sixth largest department when we were in
government. Now it is the very smallest, the 21st largest.
Was this initiative, this little tidbit of cash, put in place to
assist the government in passing its first piece of environmental
legislation of its own? Is that why we had a bit of an
augmentation in the environmental budget?
Mr. John Godfrey: Mr. Speaker, I will attempt to weave
the environmental piece back into the story of children by
pointing out that in the budget we have allocated money, as the
hon. member suggested, for the environmental health piece.
Which are the most vulnerable populations in terms of
environmental health? It is very young children and very old
people. Anybody who wishes to undertake a family or child based
policy, as the hon. member suggested, has to take a horizontal
view of all these questions and issues. We understand that if we
do a survey of government departments whose policies have an
impact on young children, we could easily find 16 or 17 including
the Department of the Environment.
When we undertake these great challenges for the 21st century,
the challenge will be to take traditional line governments and
traditional orders of government between the provinces and the
feds and ask how in these cross-cutting issues we can develop a
full policy which makes sense in a holistic way, which takes into
account the environmental dimensions of a children's policy or
the childhood dimensions of an environmental policy. The two are
inextricably linked.
1815
The Speaker: It being 6.15 p.m., it is my duty to
interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question
necessary to dispose of the amendment now before the House.
The question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the
House to adopt the amendment?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Speaker: All those in favour of the amendment will
please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Speaker: In my opinion the nays have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Speaker: Call in the members.
1845
(The House divided on the amendment, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bigras
|
Borotsik
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brien
| Cadman
|
Casson
| Chatters
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
Cummins
| de Savoye
| Debien
| Doyle
|
Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
| Duncan
| Epp
|
Gauthier
| Gilmour
| Goldring
| Grewal
|
Guimond
| Hanger
| Harvey
| Herron
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Johnston
|
Konrad
| Lebel
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Marchand
|
Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Mayfield
| McNally
|
Ménard
| Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
|
Muise
| Obhrai
| Penson
| Picard
(Drummond)
|
Price
| Ritz
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
Schmidt
| St - Hilaire
| St - Jacques
| Strahl
|
Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Williams
– 63
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
|
Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
|
Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
|
Carroll
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
Davies
| Desjarlais
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
|
Dion
| Discepola
| Dromisky
| Drouin
|
Duhamel
| Easter
| Eggleton
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Gallaway
| Godfrey
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
|
Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
| Guarnieri
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Hubbard
| Iftody
|
Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
|
Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
|
Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lee
|
Leung
| Lill
| Limoges
| Longfield
|
MacAulay
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Mancini
| Manley
| Marleau
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
|
McCormick
| McDonough
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mifflin
| Milliken
|
Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Murray
|
Myers
| Nault
| Nystrom
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
|
O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
|
Patry
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Proctor
|
Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
| Redman
|
Reed
| Richardson
| Riis
| Robillard
|
Robinson
| Rock
| Saada
| Sekora
|
Serré
| Sgro
| Shepherd
| Solomon
|
Speller
| St. Denis
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Stoffer
| Szabo
| Telegdi
|
Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
| Valeri
|
Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
| Wasylycia - Leis
|
Whelan
| Wilfert
| Wood – 151
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare the amendment lost.
* * *
CANADIAN INSTITUTES OF HEALTH RESEARCH ACT
The House resumed from March 23 consideration of Bill C-13, an
act to establish the Canadian Institutes of Health Research, to
repeal the Medical Research Council Act and to make consequential
amendments to other acts, as reported with amendments from the
committee.
The Speaker: The House will now proceed to the taking of
the deferred recorded divisions on the report stage amendments of
Bill C-13. The question is on Motion No. 1.
[Translation]
The division on this motion also applies to Motions Nos. 5 to 7,
11, 18, 23 and 24.
1850
[English]
(The House divided on Motion No. 1, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
|
Bigras
| Brien
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
|
Gauthier
| Guimond
| Lebel
| Marchand
|
Ménard
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
St - Hilaire
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
– 23
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Bailey
| Baker
|
Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
| Benoit
|
Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Caccia
| Cadman
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Casson
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Charbonneau
| Chatters
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
Cummins
| Davies
| Desjarlais
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Duncan
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Epp
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Gallaway
| Gilmour
| Godfrey
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grewal
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Hanger
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Johnston
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
|
Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Konrad
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lill
| Limoges
| Longfield
| MacAulay
|
MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Mancini
| Manley
| Mark
| Marleau
|
Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Mayfield
| McCormick
|
McDonough
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McNally
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Meredith
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Morrison
|
Muise
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Nystrom
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Obhrai
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Penson
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Price
|
Proctor
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Riis
|
Ritz
| Robillard
| Robinson
| Rock
|
Saada
| Schmidt
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
|
St. Denis
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Stoffer
| Strahl
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| Wilfert
| Williams
|
Wood – 189
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare Motion No. 1 lost. I therefore
declare Motions Nos. 5 to 7, 11, 18, 23 and 24 defeated.
The next question is on Motion No. 9.
1855
[Translation]
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, I believe you will find unanimous
consent to apply the result of the vote just taken to Motion No.
9 and to Motions Nos. 12, 13, 14, 20, 35, 46 and 15, all under
the name of the hon. member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve.
[English]
The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to proceed in
such a fashion?
Mr. Jay Hill: Mr. Speaker, Canadian Alliance members
present this evening will be voting no on this motion.
The Speaker: Colleagues, it is not necessary to apply in
this fashion so we will not go through that. Is it agreed to
proceed in such a fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(The House divided on Motion No. 9, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
|
Bigras
| Brien
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
|
Gauthier
| Guimond
| Lebel
| Marchand
|
Ménard
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
St - Hilaire
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
– 23
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Bailey
| Baker
|
Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
| Benoit
|
Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Caccia
| Cadman
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Casson
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Charbonneau
| Chatters
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
Cummins
| Davies
| Desjarlais
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Duncan
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Epp
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Gallaway
| Gilmour
| Godfrey
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grewal
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Hanger
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Johnston
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
|
Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Konrad
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lill
| Limoges
| Longfield
| MacAulay
|
MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Mancini
| Manley
| Mark
| Marleau
|
Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Mayfield
| McCormick
|
McDonough
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McNally
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Meredith
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Morrison
|
Muise
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Nystrom
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Obhrai
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Penson
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Price
|
Proctor
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Riis
|
Ritz
| Robillard
| Robinson
| Rock
|
Saada
| Schmidt
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
|
St. Denis
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Stoffer
| Strahl
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| Wilfert
| Williams
|
Wood – 189
|
PAIRED
Members
(The House divided on Motion No. 12, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
|
Bigras
| Brien
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
|
Gauthier
| Guimond
| Lebel
| Marchand
|
Ménard
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
St - Hilaire
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
– 23
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Bailey
| Baker
|
Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
| Benoit
|
Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Caccia
| Cadman
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Casson
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Charbonneau
| Chatters
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
Cummins
| Davies
| Desjarlais
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Duncan
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Epp
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Gallaway
| Gilmour
| Godfrey
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grewal
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Hanger
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Johnston
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
|
Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Konrad
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lill
| Limoges
| Longfield
| MacAulay
|
MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Mancini
| Manley
| Mark
| Marleau
|
Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Mayfield
| McCormick
|
McDonough
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McNally
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Meredith
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Morrison
|
Muise
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Nystrom
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Obhrai
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Penson
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Price
|
Proctor
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Riis
|
Ritz
| Robillard
| Robinson
| Rock
|
Saada
| Schmidt
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
|
St. Denis
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Stoffer
| Strahl
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| Wilfert
| Williams
|
Wood – 189
|
PAIRED
Members
(The House divided on Motion No. 13, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
|
Bigras
| Brien
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
|
Gauthier
| Guimond
| Lebel
| Marchand
|
Ménard
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
St - Hilaire
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
– 23
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Bailey
| Baker
|
Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
| Benoit
|
Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Caccia
| Cadman
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Casson
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Charbonneau
| Chatters
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
Cummins
| Davies
| Desjarlais
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Duncan
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Epp
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Gallaway
| Gilmour
| Godfrey
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grewal
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Hanger
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Johnston
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
|
Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Konrad
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lill
| Limoges
| Longfield
| MacAulay
|
MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Mancini
| Manley
| Mark
| Marleau
|
Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Mayfield
| McCormick
|
McDonough
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McNally
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Meredith
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Morrison
|
Muise
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Nystrom
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Obhrai
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Penson
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Price
|
Proctor
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Riis
|
Ritz
| Robillard
| Robinson
| Rock
|
Saada
| Schmidt
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
|
St. Denis
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Stoffer
| Strahl
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| Wilfert
| Williams
|
Wood – 189
|
PAIRED
Members
(The House divided on Motion No. 14, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
|
Bigras
| Brien
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
|
Gauthier
| Guimond
| Lebel
| Marchand
|
Ménard
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
St - Hilaire
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
– 23
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Bailey
| Baker
|
Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
| Benoit
|
Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Caccia
| Cadman
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Casson
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Charbonneau
| Chatters
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
Cummins
| Davies
| Desjarlais
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Duncan
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Epp
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Gallaway
| Gilmour
| Godfrey
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grewal
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Hanger
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Johnston
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
|
Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Konrad
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lill
| Limoges
| Longfield
| MacAulay
|
MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Mancini
| Manley
| Mark
| Marleau
|
Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Mayfield
| McCormick
|
McDonough
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McNally
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Meredith
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Morrison
|
Muise
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Nystrom
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Obhrai
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Penson
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Price
|
Proctor
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Riis
|
Ritz
| Robillard
| Robinson
| Rock
|
Saada
| Schmidt
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
|
St. Denis
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Stoffer
| Strahl
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| Wilfert
| Williams
|
Wood – 189
|
PAIRED
Members
(The House divided on Motion No. 20, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
|
Bigras
| Brien
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
|
Gauthier
| Guimond
| Lebel
| Marchand
|
Ménard
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
St - Hilaire
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
– 23
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Bailey
| Baker
|
Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
| Benoit
|
Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Caccia
| Cadman
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Casson
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Charbonneau
| Chatters
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
Cummins
| Davies
| Desjarlais
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Duncan
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Epp
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Gallaway
| Gilmour
| Godfrey
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grewal
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Hanger
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Johnston
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
|
Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Konrad
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lill
| Limoges
| Longfield
| MacAulay
|
MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Mancini
| Manley
| Mark
| Marleau
|
Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Mayfield
| McCormick
|
McDonough
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McNally
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Meredith
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Morrison
|
Muise
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Nystrom
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Obhrai
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Penson
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Price
|
Proctor
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Riis
|
Ritz
| Robillard
| Robinson
| Rock
|
Saada
| Schmidt
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
|
St. Denis
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Stoffer
| Strahl
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| Wilfert
| Williams
|
Wood – 189
|
PAIRED
Members
(The House divided on Motion No. 35, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
|
Bigras
| Brien
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
|
Gauthier
| Guimond
| Lebel
| Marchand
|
Ménard
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
St - Hilaire
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
– 23
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Bailey
| Baker
|
Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
| Benoit
|
Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Caccia
| Cadman
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Casson
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Charbonneau
| Chatters
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
Cummins
| Davies
| Desjarlais
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Duncan
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Epp
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Gallaway
| Gilmour
| Godfrey
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grewal
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Hanger
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Johnston
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
|
Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Konrad
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lill
| Limoges
| Longfield
| MacAulay
|
MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Mancini
| Manley
| Mark
| Marleau
|
Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Mayfield
| McCormick
|
McDonough
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McNally
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Meredith
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Morrison
|
Muise
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Nystrom
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Obhrai
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Penson
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Price
|
Proctor
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Riis
|
Ritz
| Robillard
| Robinson
| Rock
|
Saada
| Schmidt
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
|
St. Denis
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Stoffer
| Strahl
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| Wilfert
| Williams
|
Wood – 189
|
PAIRED
Members
(The House divided on Motion No. 46, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
|
Bigras
| Brien
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
|
Gauthier
| Guimond
| Lebel
| Marchand
|
Ménard
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
St - Hilaire
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
– 23
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Bailey
| Baker
|
Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
| Benoit
|
Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Caccia
| Cadman
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Casson
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Charbonneau
| Chatters
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
Cummins
| Davies
| Desjarlais
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Duncan
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Epp
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Gallaway
| Gilmour
| Godfrey
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grewal
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Hanger
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Johnston
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
|
Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Konrad
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lill
| Limoges
| Longfield
| MacAulay
|
MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Mancini
| Manley
| Mark
| Marleau
|
Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Mayfield
| McCormick
|
McDonough
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McNally
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Meredith
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Morrison
|
Muise
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Nystrom
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Obhrai
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Penson
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Price
|
Proctor
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Riis
|
Ritz
| Robillard
| Robinson
| Rock
|
Saada
| Schmidt
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
|
St. Denis
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Stoffer
| Strahl
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| Wilfert
| Williams
|
Wood – 189
|
PAIRED
Members
(The House divided on Motion No. 15, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
|
Bigras
| Brien
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
|
Gauthier
| Guimond
| Lebel
| Marchand
|
Ménard
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
St - Hilaire
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
– 23
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Bailey
| Baker
|
Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
| Benoit
|
Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Caccia
| Cadman
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Casson
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Charbonneau
| Chatters
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
Cummins
| Davies
| Desjarlais
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Duncan
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Epp
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Gallaway
| Gilmour
| Godfrey
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grewal
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Hanger
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Johnston
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
|
Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Konrad
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lill
| Limoges
| Longfield
| MacAulay
|
MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Mancini
| Manley
| Mark
| Marleau
|
Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Mayfield
| McCormick
|
McDonough
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McNally
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Meredith
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Morrison
|
Muise
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Nystrom
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Obhrai
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Penson
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Price
|
Proctor
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Riis
|
Ritz
| Robillard
| Robinson
| Rock
|
Saada
| Schmidt
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
|
St. Denis
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Stoffer
| Strahl
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| Wilfert
| Williams
|
Wood – 189
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare Motions Nos. 9, 12, 13, 14, 20,
35, 46 and 15 lost.
The next question is on Motion No. 21.
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, if the House would agree, I
would propose that you seek unanimous consent that members who
voted on the previous motion be recorded as having voted on the
motion now before the House, with Liberal members voting nay.
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Jay Hill: Mr. Speaker, Canadian Alliance members
present this evening will be voting in favour of this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, the members of the Bloc
Quebecois are in favour of this motion.
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, the members of the NDP present in
the House vote in favour of this motion.
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, the Progressive Conservative
members vote yea on this motion.
[English]
(The House divided on Motion No. 21, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bigras
|
Borotsik
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brien
| Cadman
|
Casson
| Chatters
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
Cummins
| Davies
| de Savoye
| Debien
|
Desjarlais
| Doyle
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
|
Duncan
| Epp
| Gauthier
| Gilmour
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Grewal
| Guimond
|
Hanger
| Harvey
| Herron
| Hill
(Macleod)
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Johnston
| Konrad
|
Lebel
| Lill
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mancini
|
Marchand
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
|
Mayfield
| McDonough
| McNally
| Ménard
|
Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
| Muise
|
Nystrom
| Obhrai
| Penson
| Picard
(Drummond)
|
Price
| Proctor
| Riis
| Ritz
|
Robinson
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
| Schmidt
|
Solomon
| St - Hilaire
| St - Jacques
| Stoffer
|
Strahl
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Wasylycia - Leis
|
Williams – 77
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
|
Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
|
Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
|
Carroll
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Finlay
| Folco
| Gallaway
|
Godfrey
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
|
Guarnieri
| Harb
| Harvard
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Leung
| Limoges
| Longfield
|
MacAulay
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Manley
| Marleau
| McCormick
| McGuire
|
McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Minna
| Mitchell
| Murray
| Myers
|
Nault
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
|
Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
|
Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
|
Pillitteri
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Robillard
|
Rock
| Saada
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Whelan
| Wilfert
| Wood – 135
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare Motion No. 21 lost.
The next question is on Motion No. 48.
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, I believe that you will find
consent to apply the results of the vote just taken to Motions
Nos. 48, 49, 50, 19 and 51.
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in this
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(The House divided on Motion No. 48, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bigras
|
Borotsik
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brien
| Cadman
|
Casson
| Chatters
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
Cummins
| Davies
| de Savoye
| Debien
|
Desjarlais
| Doyle
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
|
Duncan
| Epp
| Gauthier
| Gilmour
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Grewal
| Guimond
|
Hanger
| Harvey
| Herron
| Hill
(Macleod)
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Johnston
| Konrad
|
Lebel
| Lill
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mancini
|
Marchand
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
|
Mayfield
| McDonough
| McNally
| Ménard
|
Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
| Muise
|
Nystrom
| Obhrai
| Penson
| Picard
(Drummond)
|
Price
| Proctor
| Riis
| Ritz
|
Robinson
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
| Schmidt
|
Solomon
| St - Hilaire
| St - Jacques
| Stoffer
|
Strahl
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Wasylycia - Leis
|
Williams – 77
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
|
Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
|
Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
|
Carroll
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Finlay
| Folco
| Gallaway
|
Godfrey
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
|
Guarnieri
| Harb
| Harvard
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Leung
| Limoges
| Longfield
|
MacAulay
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Manley
| Marleau
| McCormick
| McGuire
|
McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Minna
| Mitchell
| Murray
| Myers
|
Nault
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
|
Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
|
Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
|
Pillitteri
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Robillard
|
Rock
| Saada
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Whelan
| Wilfert
| Wood – 135
|
PAIRED
Members
(The House divided on Motion No. 49, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bigras
|
Borotsik
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brien
| Cadman
|
Casson
| Chatters
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
Cummins
| Davies
| de Savoye
| Debien
|
Desjarlais
| Doyle
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
|
Duncan
| Epp
| Gauthier
| Gilmour
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Grewal
| Guimond
|
Hanger
| Harvey
| Herron
| Hill
(Macleod)
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Johnston
| Konrad
|
Lebel
| Lill
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mancini
|
Marchand
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
|
Mayfield
| McDonough
| McNally
| Ménard
|
Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
| Muise
|
Nystrom
| Obhrai
| Penson
| Picard
(Drummond)
|
Price
| Proctor
| Riis
| Ritz
|
Robinson
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
| Schmidt
|
Solomon
| St - Hilaire
| St - Jacques
| Stoffer
|
Strahl
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Wasylycia - Leis
|
Williams – 77
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
|
Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
|
Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
|
Carroll
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Finlay
| Folco
| Gallaway
|
Godfrey
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
|
Guarnieri
| Harb
| Harvard
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Leung
| Limoges
| Longfield
|
MacAulay
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Manley
| Marleau
| McCormick
| McGuire
|
McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Minna
| Mitchell
| Murray
| Myers
|
Nault
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
|
Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
|
Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
|
Pillitteri
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Robillard
|
Rock
| Saada
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Whelan
| Wilfert
| Wood – 135
|
PAIRED
Members
(The House divided on Motion No. 50, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bigras
|
Borotsik
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brien
| Cadman
|
Casson
| Chatters
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
Cummins
| Davies
| de Savoye
| Debien
|
Desjarlais
| Doyle
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
|
Duncan
| Epp
| Gauthier
| Gilmour
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Grewal
| Guimond
|
Hanger
| Harvey
| Herron
| Hill
(Macleod)
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Johnston
| Konrad
|
Lebel
| Lill
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mancini
|
Marchand
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
|
Mayfield
| McDonough
| McNally
| Ménard
|
Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
| Muise
|
Nystrom
| Obhrai
| Penson
| Picard
(Drummond)
|
Price
| Proctor
| Riis
| Ritz
|
Robinson
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
| Schmidt
|
Solomon
| St - Hilaire
| St - Jacques
| Stoffer
|
Strahl
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Wasylycia - Leis
|
Williams – 77
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
|
Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
|
Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
|
Carroll
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Finlay
| Folco
| Gallaway
|
Godfrey
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
|
Guarnieri
| Harb
| Harvard
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Leung
| Limoges
| Longfield
|
MacAulay
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Manley
| Marleau
| McCormick
| McGuire
|
McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Minna
| Mitchell
| Murray
| Myers
|
Nault
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
|
Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
|
Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
|
Pillitteri
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Robillard
|
Rock
| Saada
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Whelan
| Wilfert
| Wood – 135
|
PAIRED
Members
(The House divided on Motion No. 19, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bigras
|
Borotsik
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brien
| Cadman
|
Casson
| Chatters
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
Cummins
| Davies
| de Savoye
| Debien
|
Desjarlais
| Doyle
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
|
Duncan
| Epp
| Gauthier
| Gilmour
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Grewal
| Guimond
|
Hanger
| Harvey
| Herron
| Hill
(Macleod)
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Johnston
| Konrad
|
Lebel
| Lill
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mancini
|
Marchand
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
|
Mayfield
| McDonough
| McNally
| Ménard
|
Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
| Muise
|
Nystrom
| Obhrai
| Penson
| Picard
(Drummond)
|
Price
| Proctor
| Riis
| Ritz
|
Robinson
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
| Schmidt
|
Solomon
| St - Hilaire
| St - Jacques
| Stoffer
|
Strahl
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Wasylycia - Leis
|
Williams – 77
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
|
Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
|
Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
|
Carroll
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Finlay
| Folco
| Gallaway
|
Godfrey
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
|
Guarnieri
| Harb
| Harvard
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Leung
| Limoges
| Longfield
|
MacAulay
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Manley
| Marleau
| McCormick
| McGuire
|
McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Minna
| Mitchell
| Murray
| Myers
|
Nault
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
|
Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
|
Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
|
Pillitteri
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Robillard
|
Rock
| Saada
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Whelan
| Wilfert
| Wood – 135
|
PAIRED
Members
(The House divided on Motion No. 51, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bigras
|
Borotsik
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brien
| Cadman
|
Casson
| Chatters
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
Cummins
| Davies
| de Savoye
| Debien
|
Desjarlais
| Doyle
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
|
Duncan
| Epp
| Gauthier
| Gilmour
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Grewal
| Guimond
|
Hanger
| Harvey
| Herron
| Hill
(Macleod)
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Johnston
| Konrad
|
Lebel
| Lill
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mancini
|
Marchand
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
|
Mayfield
| McDonough
| McNally
| Ménard
|
Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
| Muise
|
Nystrom
| Obhrai
| Penson
| Picard
(Drummond)
|
Price
| Proctor
| Riis
| Ritz
|
Robinson
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
| Schmidt
|
Solomon
| St - Hilaire
| St - Jacques
| Stoffer
|
Strahl
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Wasylycia - Leis
|
Williams – 77
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
|
Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
|
Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
|
Carroll
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Finlay
| Folco
| Gallaway
|
Godfrey
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
|
Guarnieri
| Harb
| Harvard
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Leung
| Limoges
| Longfield
|
MacAulay
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Manley
| Marleau
| McCormick
| McGuire
|
McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Minna
| Mitchell
| Murray
| Myers
|
Nault
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
|
Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
|
Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
|
Pillitteri
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Robillard
|
Rock
| Saada
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Whelan
| Wilfert
| Wood – 135
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare Motions Nos. 48, 49, 50, 19 and 51
lost.
Mr. Paul Szabo: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
Report stage Motion No. 56 on the order paper which authorizes
parliament to conduct a five year review of the administration of
this act was not properly moved at report stage.
1900
In view of the importance of this provision to accountability
and transparency, I seek the consent of the House to move this
motion now so that it can be voted on before the concurrence
motion?
The Speaker: Does the member have consent to propose the
motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed
Some hon. members: No.
The Speaker: The question is on Motion No. 2 in Group No. 2.
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, if the House would agree, I
would propose that you seek unanimous consent that members who
voted on the previous motion be recorded as having voted on the
motion now before the House with Liberal members voting nay.
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Jay Hill: Mr. Speaker, Canadian Alliance members
present this evening will be voting yes to the motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, the members of the Bloc
Quebecois are opposed to this motion.
[English]
Mr. Yvon Godin: Members of the NDP present will be voting
nay to the motion.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, the Progressive Conservative
members vote yea on this motion.
[English]
(The House divided on Motion No. 2, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Bailey
| Benoit
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Borotsik
|
Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Cadman
| Casson
| Chatters
|
Cummins
| Doyle
| Duncan
| Epp
|
Gilmour
| Goldring
| Grewal
| Hanger
|
Harvey
| Herron
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
|
Hilstrom
| Johnston
| Konrad
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
|
Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Mayfield
| McNally
|
Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
| Muise
|
Obhrai
| Penson
| Price
| Ritz
|
Schmidt
| St - Jacques
| Strahl
| Williams – 40
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Asselin
| Augustine
| Axworthy
| Baker
|
Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellehumeur
| Bellemare
| Bennett
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
|
Bigras
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
|
Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brien
| Brown
|
Bryden
| Bulte
| Caccia
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
|
Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Clouthier
| Coderre
| Collenette
|
Comuzzi
| Copps
| Crête
| Cullen
|
Davies
| de Savoye
| Debien
| Desjarlais
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
|
Duhamel
| Easter
| Eggleton
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Gallaway
| Gauthier
| Godfrey
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
|
Guarnieri
| Guimond
| Harb
| Harvard
|
Hubbard
| Iftody
| Jennings
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
|
Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
|
Lavigne
| Lebel
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lill
| Limoges
| Longfield
| MacAulay
|
Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
| Mancini
|
Manley
| Marchand
| Marleau
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
|
McCormick
| McDonough
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Ménard
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Minna
| Mitchell
| Murray
| Myers
|
Nault
| Nystrom
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Proctor
|
Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
| Redman
|
Reed
| Richardson
| Riis
| Robillard
|
Robinson
| Rocheleau
| Rock
| Saada
|
Sauvageau
| Sekora
| Serré
| Sgro
|
Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Hilaire
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
Stoffer
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
|
Torsney
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| Wilfert
| Wood – 172
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare Motion No. 2 lost.
The next question is on Motion No. 3.
[Translation]
The Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the
motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, I believe you will find unanimous
consent to apply the result of the vote just taken to the motion
now before the House, with the Liberal members voting nay.
[English]
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Jay Hill: Mr. Speaker, Canadian Alliance members
present this evening will be voting yea to the motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, the members of the Bloc
Quebecois are in favour of this motion.
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, the members of the NDP vote nay
on this motion.
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, the Progressive Conservative
members vote nay on this motion.
[English]
(The House divided on Motion No. 3, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bigras
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
|
Brien
| Cadman
| Casson
| Chatters
|
Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
| Cummins
| de Savoye
|
Debien
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
| Duncan
|
Epp
| Gauthier
| Gilmour
| Goldring
|
Grewal
| Guimond
| Hanger
| Hill
(Macleod)
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Johnston
| Konrad
|
Lebel
| Marchand
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
|
Mayfield
| McNally
| Ménard
| Meredith
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
| Obhrai
| Penson
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Ritz
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
Schmidt
| St - Hilaire
| Strahl
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
|
Turp
| Williams – 54
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
|
Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
|
Borotsik
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brown
|
Bryden
| Bulte
| Caccia
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
|
Clouthier
| Coderre
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
|
Copps
| Cullen
| Davies
| Desjarlais
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
|
Doyle
| Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Finlay
| Folco
|
Gallaway
| Godfrey
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Graham
|
Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Harb
|
Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Leung
| Lill
| Limoges
|
Longfield
| MacAulay
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Mancini
| Manley
|
Marleau
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| McCormick
| McDonough
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
|
Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Muise
|
Murray
| Myers
| Nault
| Nystrom
|
O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
|
Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
| Peterson
|
Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
|
Price
| Proctor
| Proud
| Proulx
|
Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
|
Riis
| Robillard
| Robinson
| Rock
|
Saada
| Sekora
| Serré
| Sgro
|
Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
Stoffer
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
|
Torsney
| Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
|
Volpe
| Wappel
| Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
|
Wilfert
| Wood – 158
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare Motion No. 3 lost.
[Translation]
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, I believe you will find
unanimous consent to apply the result of the vote just taken to
the following motions: Motions Nos. 10, 22, 25 and 41.
[English]
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(The House divided on Motion No. 10, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bigras
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
|
Brien
| Cadman
| Casson
| Chatters
|
Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
| Cummins
| de Savoye
|
Debien
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
| Duncan
|
Epp
| Gauthier
| Gilmour
| Goldring
|
Grewal
| Guimond
| Hanger
| Hill
(Macleod)
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Johnston
| Konrad
|
Lebel
| Marchand
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
|
Mayfield
| McNally
| Ménard
| Meredith
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
| Obhrai
| Penson
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Ritz
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
Schmidt
| St - Hilaire
| Strahl
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
|
Turp
| Williams – 54
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
|
Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
|
Borotsik
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brown
|
Bryden
| Bulte
| Caccia
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
|
Clouthier
| Coderre
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
|
Copps
| Cullen
| Davies
| Desjarlais
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
|
Doyle
| Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Finlay
| Folco
|
Gallaway
| Godfrey
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Graham
|
Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Harb
|
Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Leung
| Lill
| Limoges
|
Longfield
| MacAulay
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Mancini
| Manley
|
Marleau
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| McCormick
| McDonough
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
|
Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Muise
|
Murray
| Myers
| Nault
| Nystrom
|
O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
|
Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
| Peterson
|
Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
|
Price
| Proctor
| Proud
| Proulx
|
Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
|
Riis
| Robillard
| Robinson
| Rock
|
Saada
| Sekora
| Serré
| Sgro
|
Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
Stoffer
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
|
Torsney
| Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
|
Volpe
| Wappel
| Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
|
Wilfert
| Wood – 158
|
PAIRED
Members
(The House divided on Motion No. 22, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bigras
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
|
Brien
| Cadman
| Casson
| Chatters
|
Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
| Cummins
| de Savoye
|
Debien
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
| Duncan
|
Epp
| Gauthier
| Gilmour
| Goldring
|
Grewal
| Guimond
| Hanger
| Hill
(Macleod)
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Johnston
| Konrad
|
Lebel
| Marchand
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
|
Mayfield
| McNally
| Ménard
| Meredith
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
| Obhrai
| Penson
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Ritz
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
Schmidt
| St - Hilaire
| Strahl
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
|
Turp
| Williams – 54
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
|
Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
|
Borotsik
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brown
|
Bryden
| Bulte
| Caccia
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
|
Clouthier
| Coderre
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
|
Copps
| Cullen
| Davies
| Desjarlais
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
|
Doyle
| Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Finlay
| Folco
|
Gallaway
| Godfrey
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Graham
|
Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Harb
|
Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Leung
| Lill
| Limoges
|
Longfield
| MacAulay
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Mancini
| Manley
|
Marleau
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| McCormick
| McDonough
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
|
Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Muise
|
Murray
| Myers
| Nault
| Nystrom
|
O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
|
Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
| Peterson
|
Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
|
Price
| Proctor
| Proud
| Proulx
|
Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
|
Riis
| Robillard
| Robinson
| Rock
|
Saada
| Sekora
| Serré
| Sgro
|
Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
Stoffer
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
|
Torsney
| Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
|
Volpe
| Wappel
| Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
|
Wilfert
| Wood – 158
|
PAIRED
Members
(The House divided on Motion No. 25, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bigras
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
|
Brien
| Cadman
| Casson
| Chatters
|
Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
| Cummins
| de Savoye
|
Debien
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
| Duncan
|
Epp
| Gauthier
| Gilmour
| Goldring
|
Grewal
| Guimond
| Hanger
| Hill
(Macleod)
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Johnston
| Konrad
|
Lebel
| Marchand
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
|
Mayfield
| McNally
| Ménard
| Meredith
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
| Obhrai
| Penson
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Ritz
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
Schmidt
| St - Hilaire
| Strahl
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
|
Turp
| Williams – 54
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
|
Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
|
Borotsik
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brown
|
Bryden
| Bulte
| Caccia
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
|
Clouthier
| Coderre
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
|
Copps
| Cullen
| Davies
| Desjarlais
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
|
Doyle
| Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Finlay
| Folco
|
Gallaway
| Godfrey
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Graham
|
Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Harb
|
Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Leung
| Lill
| Limoges
|
Longfield
| MacAulay
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Mancini
| Manley
|
Marleau
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| McCormick
| McDonough
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
|
Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Muise
|
Murray
| Myers
| Nault
| Nystrom
|
O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
|
Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
| Peterson
|
Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
|
Price
| Proctor
| Proud
| Proulx
|
Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
|
Riis
| Robillard
| Robinson
| Rock
|
Saada
| Sekora
| Serré
| Sgro
|
Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
Stoffer
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
|
Torsney
| Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
|
Volpe
| Wappel
| Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
|
Wilfert
| Wood – 158
|
PAIRED
Members
(The House divided on Motion No. 41, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bigras
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
|
Brien
| Cadman
| Casson
| Chatters
|
Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
| Cummins
| de Savoye
|
Debien
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
| Duncan
|
Epp
| Gauthier
| Gilmour
| Goldring
|
Grewal
| Guimond
| Hanger
| Hill
(Macleod)
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Johnston
| Konrad
|
Lebel
| Marchand
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
|
Mayfield
| McNally
| Ménard
| Meredith
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
| Obhrai
| Penson
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Ritz
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
Schmidt
| St - Hilaire
| Strahl
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
|
Turp
| Williams – 54
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
|
Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
|
Borotsik
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brown
|
Bryden
| Bulte
| Caccia
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
|
Clouthier
| Coderre
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
|
Copps
| Cullen
| Davies
| Desjarlais
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
|
Doyle
| Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Finlay
| Folco
|
Gallaway
| Godfrey
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Graham
|
Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Harb
|
Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Leung
| Lill
| Limoges
|
Longfield
| MacAulay
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Mancini
| Manley
|
Marleau
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| McCormick
| McDonough
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
|
Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Muise
|
Murray
| Myers
| Nault
| Nystrom
|
O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
|
Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
| Peterson
|
Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
|
Price
| Proctor
| Proud
| Proulx
|
Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
|
Riis
| Robillard
| Robinson
| Rock
|
Saada
| Sekora
| Serré
| Sgro
|
Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
Stoffer
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
|
Torsney
| Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
|
Volpe
| Wappel
| Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
|
Wilfert
| Wood – 158
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare Motions Nos. 10, 22, 25 and 41
lost.
The next question is on Motion No. 4.
1905
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, if the House would agree, I
would propose that you seek unanimous consent that members who
voted on the previous motion be recorded as having voted on the
motion now before the House, with Liberal members voting yea.
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Jay Hill: Mr. Speaker, Canadian Alliance members
present this evening will be voting in favour of this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, Bloc Quebecois members are
against the motion.
[English]
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, members of the NDP present
will be voting yes to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, Progressive Conservative Party
members are in favour of the motion.
[English]
(The House divided on Motion No. 4, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Bailey
| Baker
|
Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
| Benoit
|
Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Caccia
| Cadman
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Casson
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Charbonneau
| Chatters
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
Cummins
| Davies
| Desjarlais
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Duncan
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Epp
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Gallaway
| Gilmour
| Godfrey
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grewal
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Hanger
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Johnston
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
|
Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Konrad
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lill
| Limoges
| Longfield
| MacAulay
|
MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Mancini
| Manley
| Mark
| Marleau
|
Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Mayfield
| McCormick
|
McDonough
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McNally
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Meredith
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Morrison
|
Muise
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Nystrom
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Obhrai
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Penson
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Price
|
Proctor
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Riis
|
Ritz
| Robillard
| Robinson
| Rock
|
Saada
| Schmidt
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
|
St. Denis
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Stoffer
| Strahl
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| Wilfert
| Williams
|
Wood – 189
|
NAYS
Members
Asselin
| Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
|
Bigras
| Brien
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
|
Gauthier
| Guimond
| Lebel
| Marchand
|
Ménard
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
St - Hilaire
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
– 23
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare Motion No. 4 carried.
The next question is on Motion No. 16.
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, I believe that you would
find consent to apply the results of the vote just taken to
Motion No. 16.
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(The House divided on Motion No. 16, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Bailey
| Baker
|
Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
| Benoit
|
Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Caccia
| Cadman
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Casson
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Charbonneau
| Chatters
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
Cummins
| Davies
| Desjarlais
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Duncan
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Epp
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Gallaway
| Gilmour
| Godfrey
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grewal
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Hanger
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Johnston
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
|
Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Konrad
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lill
| Limoges
| Longfield
| MacAulay
|
MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Mancini
| Manley
| Mark
| Marleau
|
Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Mayfield
| McCormick
|
McDonough
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McNally
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Meredith
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Morrison
|
Muise
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Nystrom
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Obhrai
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Penson
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Price
|
Proctor
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Riis
|
Ritz
| Robillard
| Robinson
| Rock
|
Saada
| Schmidt
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
|
St. Denis
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Stoffer
| Strahl
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| Wilfert
| Williams
|
Wood – 189
|
NAYS
Members
Asselin
| Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
|
Bigras
| Brien
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
|
Gauthier
| Guimond
| Lebel
| Marchand
|
Ménard
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
St - Hilaire
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
– 23
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare Motion No. 16 carried.
The next question is on Motion No. 8. A vote on this motion
also applies to Motions Nos. 27, 31, 32, 34, 45 and 47.
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
If the House would agree, I would propose that you seek unanimous
consent that members who voted on the previous motion be recorded
as having voted on the motion now before the House, with Liberal
members voting nay.
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Jay Hill: Mr. Speaker, Canadian Alliance members
present this evening will be voting yea on this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, Bloc Quebecois members
oppose the motion.
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, New Democratic Party members are
in favour of the motion.
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, New Democratic Party members
are in favour of the motion.
[English]
(The House divided on Motion No. 8, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Bailey
| Benoit
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Borotsik
|
Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Cadman
| Casson
| Chatters
|
Cummins
| Davies
| Desjarlais
| Doyle
|
Duncan
| Epp
| Gilmour
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
|
Goldring
| Grewal
| Hanger
| Harvey
|
Herron
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
|
Johnston
| Konrad
| Lill
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
|
Mancini
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
|
Mayfield
| McDonough
| McNally
| Meredith
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
| Muise
| Nystrom
|
Obhrai
| Penson
| Price
| Proctor
|
Riis
| Ritz
| Robinson
| Schmidt
|
Solomon
| St - Jacques
| Stoffer
| Strahl
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| Williams – 54
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Asselin
| Augustine
| Axworthy
| Baker
|
Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellehumeur
| Bellemare
| Bennett
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
|
Bigras
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
|
Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brien
| Brown
|
Bryden
| Bulte
| Caccia
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
|
Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Clouthier
| Coderre
| Collenette
|
Comuzzi
| Copps
| Crête
| Cullen
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
|
Dion
| Discepola
| Dromisky
| Drouin
|
Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
| Duhamel
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Finlay
| Folco
| Gallaway
|
Gauthier
| Godfrey
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Guimond
| Harb
|
Harvard
| Hubbard
| Iftody
| Jennings
|
Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
|
Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lebel
| Lee
|
Leung
| Limoges
| Longfield
| MacAulay
|
Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
|
Marchand
| Marleau
| McCormick
| McGuire
|
McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
| Ménard
|
Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Murray
|
Myers
| Nault
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Proud
|
Proulx
| Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
|
Richardson
| Robillard
| Rocheleau
| Rock
|
Saada
| Sauvageau
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Hilaire
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
|
Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Ur
| Valeri
|
Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
| Whelan
|
Wilfert
| Wood – 158
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare Motion No. 8 lost. I therefore
declare Motions Nos. 27, 31, 32, 34, 45 and 47 lost.
The next question is on Motion No. 52.
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I believe you would find unanimous consent to apply the results
of the vote just taken to Motion No. 52.
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I just want to add the hon. member for
Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar to this division. He will be voting
yea.
The Speaker: It will be noted.
(The House divided on Motion No. 52, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Bailey
| Benoit
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Borotsik
|
Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Cadman
| Casson
| Chatters
|
Cummins
| Davies
| Desjarlais
| Doyle
|
Duncan
| Epp
| Gilmour
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
|
Goldring
| Grewal
| Gruending
| Hanger
|
Harvey
| Herron
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
|
Hilstrom
| Johnston
| Konrad
| Lill
|
MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mancini
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
|
Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Mayfield
| McDonough
| McNally
|
Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
| Muise
|
Nystrom
| Obhrai
| Penson
| Price
|
Proctor
| Riis
| Ritz
| Robinson
|
Schmidt
| Solomon
| St - Jacques
| Stoffer
|
Strahl
| Wasylycia - Leis
| Williams – 55
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Asselin
| Augustine
| Axworthy
| Baker
|
Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellehumeur
| Bellemare
| Bennett
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
|
Bigras
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
|
Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brien
| Brown
|
Bryden
| Bulte
| Caccia
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
|
Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Clouthier
| Coderre
| Collenette
|
Comuzzi
| Copps
| Crête
| Cullen
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
|
Dion
| Discepola
| Dromisky
| Drouin
|
Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
| Duhamel
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Finlay
| Folco
| Gallaway
|
Gauthier
| Godfrey
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Guimond
| Harb
|
Harvard
| Hubbard
| Iftody
| Jennings
|
Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
|
Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lebel
| Lee
|
Leung
| Limoges
| Longfield
| MacAulay
|
Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
|
Marchand
| Marleau
| McCormick
| McGuire
|
McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
| Ménard
|
Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Murray
|
Myers
| Nault
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Proud
|
Proulx
| Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
|
Richardson
| Robillard
| Rocheleau
| Rock
|
Saada
| Sauvageau
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Hilaire
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
|
Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Ur
| Valeri
|
Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
| Whelan
|
Wilfert
| Wood – 158
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare Motion No. 52 lost.
The next question is on Motion No. 26. A vote on this motion
also applies to Motions Nos. 30, 37 and 38.
[Translation]
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, I think you will find unanimous
consent to have members who voted on the preceding motion
recorded as having voted on the motion now before the House, with
Liberal members voting nay.
[English]
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Jay Hill: Mr. Speaker, Canadian Alliance members
present this evening will be voting no to Motion No. 26.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, Bloc Quebecois members are
in favour of this motion.
1910
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, NDP members will be voting
against the motion.
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, Progressive Conservative Party
members will be voting in favour of the motion.
[English]
(The House divided on Motion No. 26, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
|
Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bigras
| Borotsik
| Brien
|
Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
| de Savoye
| Debien
|
Doyle
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
| Gauthier
|
Guimond
| Harvey
| Herron
| Lebel
|
MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Marchand
| Ménard
| Muise
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Price
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
St - Hilaire
| St - Jacques
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp – 32
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Bailey
| Baker
|
Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
| Benoit
|
Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
|
Bonwick
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
|
Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
| Caccia
|
Cadman
| Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
|
Carroll
| Casson
| Catterall
| Cauchon
|
Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
| Chatters
|
Clouthier
| Coderre
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
|
Copps
| Cullen
| Cummins
| Davies
|
Desjarlais
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
|
Discepola
| Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
|
Duncan
| Easter
| Eggleton
| Epp
|
Finlay
| Folco
| Gallaway
| Gilmour
|
Godfrey
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Graham
|
Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grewal
| Grose
| Gruending
|
Guarnieri
| Hanger
| Harb
| Harvard
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Johnston
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
|
Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Konrad
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lill
| Limoges
| Longfield
| MacAulay
|
Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
| Mancini
|
Manley
| Mark
| Marleau
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
|
Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Mayfield
| McCormick
| McDonough
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McNally
| McTeague
|
McWhinney
| Meredith
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Mills
(Red Deer)
|
Minna
| Mitchell
| Morrison
| Murray
|
Myers
| Nault
| Nystrom
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
|
O'Reilly
| Obhrai
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
|
Parrish
| Patry
| Penson
| Peric
|
Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
|
Pillitteri
| Proctor
| Proud
| Proulx
|
Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
|
Riis
| Ritz
| Robillard
| Robinson
|
Rock
| Saada
| Schmidt
| Sekora
|
Serré
| Sgro
| Shepherd
| Solomon
|
Speller
| St. Denis
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Stoffer
| Strahl
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| Wilfert
| Williams
|
Wood
– 181
|
PAIRED
Members
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No. 26 lost.
I therefore declare Motions Nos. 30, 37 and 38 lost.
The next question is on Motion No. 28.
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, if the House would agree, I
would propose that you seek unanimous consent that members who
voted on the previous motion be recorded as having voted on the
motion now before the House, with Liberal members voting nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is there agreement
to proceed in such a fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Jay Hill: Mr. Speaker, Canadian Alliance members
present this evening will be voting no to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, Bloc Quebecois members
will be voting against the motion.
[English]
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, the NDP members present will
be voting no to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, Progressive Conservative Party
members will be voting in favour of the motion.
[English]
(The House divided on Motion No. 28, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Borotsik
| Doyle
| Harvey
|
Herron
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Muise
| Price
|
St - Jacques – 9
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Asselin
| Augustine
| Axworthy
| Bailey
|
Baker
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
|
Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellehumeur
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Benoit
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
|
Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Bigras
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
|
Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brien
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Caccia
| Cadman
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Casson
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Charbonneau
| Chatters
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Clouthier
|
Coderre
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
|
Crête
| Cullen
| Cummins
| Davies
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Desjarlais
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Discepola
| Dromisky
|
Drouin
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
| Duhamel
|
Duncan
| Easter
| Eggleton
| Epp
|
Finlay
| Folco
| Gallaway
| Gauthier
|
Gilmour
| Godfrey
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
|
Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grewal
| Grose
|
Gruending
| Guarnieri
| Guimond
| Hanger
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
|
Hilstrom
| Hubbard
| Iftody
| Jennings
|
Johnston
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
|
Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
|
Konrad
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lebel
| Lee
| Leung
| Lill
|
Limoges
| Longfield
| MacAulay
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Mancini
| Manley
|
Marchand
| Mark
| Marleau
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
|
Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Mayfield
| McCormick
| McDonough
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McNally
| McTeague
|
McWhinney
| Ménard
| Meredith
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Morrison
|
Murray
| Myers
| Nault
| Nystrom
|
O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Obhrai
| Pagtakhan
|
Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
| Penson
|
Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Proctor
|
Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
| Redman
|
Reed
| Richardson
| Riis
| Ritz
|
Robillard
| Robinson
| Rocheleau
| Rock
|
Saada
| Sauvageau
| Schmidt
| Sekora
|
Serré
| Sgro
| Shepherd
| Solomon
|
Speller
| St. Denis
| St - Hilaire
| St - Julien
|
Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Stoffer
| Strahl
|
Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
|
Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Ur
| Valeri
|
Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
| Wasylycia - Leis
|
Whelan
| Wilfert
| Williams
| Wood – 204
|
PAIRED
Members
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No. 28 lost.
The next question is on Motion No. 33.
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, if the House would agree, I
would propose that you seek unanimous consent that members who
voted on the previous motion be recorded as having voted on the
motion now before the House, with Liberal members voting nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is there consent to
proceed in this fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Jay Hill: Mr. Speaker, Canadian Alliance members
present will be voting in favour of this motion. I also note
that the member for Calgary East has had to leave the Chamber.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, Bloc Quebecois members
support the motion.
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, NDP members present will be
voting against the motion.
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, the members of the Progressive
Conservative Party are in favour of this motion.
[English]
(The House divided on Motion No. 33, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bigras
|
Borotsik
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brien
| Cadman
|
Casson
| Chatters
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
Cummins
| de Savoye
| Debien
| Doyle
|
Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
| Duncan
| Epp
|
Gauthier
| Gilmour
| Goldring
| Grewal
|
Guimond
| Hanger
| Harvey
| Herron
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Johnston
|
Konrad
| Lebel
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Marchand
|
Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Mayfield
| McNally
|
Ménard
| Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
|
Muise
| Penson
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Price
|
Ritz
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
| Schmidt
|
St - Hilaire
| St - Jacques
| Strahl
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
|
Turp
| Williams
– 62
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
|
Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
|
Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
|
Carroll
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
Davies
| Desjarlais
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
|
Dion
| Discepola
| Dromisky
| Drouin
|
Duhamel
| Easter
| Eggleton
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Gallaway
| Godfrey
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
|
Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
| Gruending
|
Guarnieri
| Harb
| Harvard
| Hubbard
|
Iftody
| Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Leung
| Lill
| Limoges
|
Longfield
| MacAulay
| Mahoney
| Malhi
|
Maloney
| Mancini
| Manley
| Marleau
|
Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| McCormick
| McDonough
| McGuire
|
McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Minna
| Mitchell
| Murray
| Myers
|
Nault
| Nystrom
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
|
Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Proctor
| Proud
|
Proulx
| Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
|
Richardson
| Riis
| Robillard
| Robinson
|
Rock
| Saada
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Solomon
| Speller
|
St. Denis
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
Stoffer
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
|
Torsney
| Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
|
Volpe
| Wappel
| Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
|
Wilfert
| Wood – 150
|
PAIRED
Members
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No. 33 lost.
The next question is on Motion No. 29.
[Translation]
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, I think you will find unanimous
consent that those members who voted on the previous motion be
recorded as having voted on the motion now before the House.
Liberal members vote no.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is it the pleasure
of the House to proceed in this fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Jay Hill: Mr. Speaker, Canadian Alliance members will
be voting no to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, the members of the Bloc
Quebecois oppose this motion.
[English]
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, members of the NDP will be
voting yes to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, the members of the Progressive
Conservative Party are in favour of this motion.
1915
[English]
(The House divided on Motion No. 29, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Borotsik
| Davies
| Desjarlais
|
Doyle
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Gruending
| Harvey
|
Herron
| Lill
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mancini
|
Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| McDonough
| Muise
| Nystrom
|
Price
| Proctor
| Riis
| Robinson
|
Solomon
| St - Jacques
| Stoffer
| Wasylycia - Leis – 24
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Asselin
| Augustine
| Axworthy
| Bailey
|
Baker
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
|
Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellehumeur
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Benoit
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
|
Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Bigras
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
|
Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brien
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Caccia
| Cadman
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Casson
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Charbonneau
| Chatters
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Clouthier
|
Coderre
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
|
Crête
| Cullen
| Cummins
| de Savoye
|
Debien
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
|
Discepola
| Dromisky
| Drouin
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
|
Duceppe
| Duhamel
| Duncan
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Epp
| Finlay
| Folco
|
Gallaway
| Gauthier
| Gilmour
| Godfrey
|
Goldring
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grewal
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Guimond
| Hanger
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
|
Hilstrom
| Hubbard
| Iftody
| Jennings
|
Johnston
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
|
Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
|
Konrad
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lebel
| Lee
| Leung
| Limoges
|
Longfield
| MacAulay
| Mahoney
| Malhi
|
Maloney
| Manley
| Marchand
| Mark
|
Marleau
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Mayfield
| McCormick
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McNally
| McTeague
|
McWhinney
| Ménard
| Meredith
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Morrison
|
Murray
| Myers
| Nault
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
|
O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
|
Patry
| Penson
| Peric
| Peterson
|
Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
|
Pillitteri
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Ritz
|
Robillard
| Rocheleau
| Rock
| Saada
|
Sauvageau
| Schmidt
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Hilaire
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
Strahl
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
|
Torsney
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Whelan
| Wilfert
| Williams
| Wood – 188
|
PAIRED
Members
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No. 29 lost.
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, I believe you would find
consent to apply the results of the vote just taken to Motions
Nos. 36 and 55.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is there unanimous
consent to proceed in this fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(The House divided on Motion No. 36, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Borotsik
| Davies
| Desjarlais
|
Doyle
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Gruending
| Harvey
|
Herron
| Lill
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mancini
|
Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| McDonough
| Muise
| Nystrom
|
Price
| Proctor
| Riis
| Robinson
|
Solomon
| St - Jacques
| Stoffer
| Wasylycia - Leis – 24
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Asselin
| Augustine
| Axworthy
| Bailey
|
Baker
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
|
Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellehumeur
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Benoit
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
|
Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Bigras
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
|
Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brien
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Caccia
| Cadman
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Casson
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Charbonneau
| Chatters
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Clouthier
|
Coderre
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
|
Crête
| Cullen
| Cummins
| de Savoye
|
Debien
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
|
Discepola
| Dromisky
| Drouin
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
|
Duceppe
| Duhamel
| Duncan
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Epp
| Finlay
| Folco
|
Gallaway
| Gauthier
| Gilmour
| Godfrey
|
Goldring
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grewal
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Guimond
| Hanger
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
|
Hilstrom
| Hubbard
| Iftody
| Jennings
|
Johnston
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
|
Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
|
Konrad
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lebel
| Lee
| Leung
| Limoges
|
Longfield
| MacAulay
| Mahoney
| Malhi
|
Maloney
| Manley
| Marchand
| Mark
|
Marleau
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Mayfield
| McCormick
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McNally
| McTeague
|
McWhinney
| Ménard
| Meredith
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Morrison
|
Murray
| Myers
| Nault
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
|
O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
|
Patry
| Penson
| Peric
| Peterson
|
Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
|
Pillitteri
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Ritz
|
Robillard
| Rocheleau
| Rock
| Saada
|
Sauvageau
| Schmidt
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Hilaire
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
Strahl
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
|
Torsney
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Whelan
| Wilfert
| Williams
| Wood – 188
|
PAIRED
Members
(The House divided on Motion No. 55, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Borotsik
| Davies
| Desjarlais
|
Doyle
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Gruending
| Harvey
|
Herron
| Lill
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mancini
|
Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| McDonough
| Muise
| Nystrom
|
Price
| Proctor
| Riis
| Robinson
|
Solomon
| St - Jacques
| Stoffer
| Wasylycia - Leis – 24
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Asselin
| Augustine
| Axworthy
| Bailey
|
Baker
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
|
Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellehumeur
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Benoit
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
|
Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Bigras
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
|
Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brien
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Caccia
| Cadman
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Casson
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Charbonneau
| Chatters
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Clouthier
|
Coderre
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
|
Crête
| Cullen
| Cummins
| de Savoye
|
Debien
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
|
Discepola
| Dromisky
| Drouin
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
|
Duceppe
| Duhamel
| Duncan
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Epp
| Finlay
| Folco
|
Gallaway
| Gauthier
| Gilmour
| Godfrey
|
Goldring
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grewal
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Guimond
| Hanger
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
|
Hilstrom
| Hubbard
| Iftody
| Jennings
|
Johnston
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
|
Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
|
Konrad
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lebel
| Lee
| Leung
| Limoges
|
Longfield
| MacAulay
| Mahoney
| Malhi
|
Maloney
| Manley
| Marchand
| Mark
|
Marleau
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Mayfield
| McCormick
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McNally
| McTeague
|
McWhinney
| Ménard
| Meredith
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Morrison
|
Murray
| Myers
| Nault
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
|
O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
|
Patry
| Penson
| Peric
| Peterson
|
Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
|
Pillitteri
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Ritz
|
Robillard
| Rocheleau
| Rock
| Saada
|
Sauvageau
| Schmidt
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Hilaire
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
Strahl
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
|
Torsney
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Whelan
| Wilfert
| Williams
| Wood – 188
|
PAIRED
Members
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motions
Nos. 36 and 55 lost.
The next question is on Motion No. 42.
[Translation]
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, I think you will find unanimous
consent that those members who voted on the previous motion be
recorded as having voted on the motion now before the House.
Liberal members vote no.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is there consent to
proceed in this fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Jay Hill: Mr. Speaker, Canadian Alliance members
present this evening will be voting in favour of this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, the members of the Bloc
Quebecois support this motion.
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, New Democratic Party members vote
yes on this motion.
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, Progressive Conservative
members vote no on this motion.
[English]
(The House divided on Motion No. 42, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Asselin
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
|
Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bigras
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
|
Brien
| Cadman
| Casson
| Chatters
|
Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
| Cummins
| Davies
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Desjarlais
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
|
Duceppe
| Duncan
| Epp
| Gauthier
|
Gilmour
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Grewal
|
Gruending
| Guimond
| Hanger
| Hill
(Macleod)
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Johnston
| Konrad
|
Lebel
| Lill
| Mancini
| Marchand
|
Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Mayfield
|
McDonough
| McNally
| Ménard
| Meredith
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
| Nystrom
| Penson
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Proctor
| Riis
| Ritz
|
Robinson
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
| Schmidt
|
Solomon
| St - Hilaire
| Stoffer
| Strahl
|
Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Wasylycia - Leis
| Williams – 68
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
|
Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
|
Borotsik
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brown
|
Bryden
| Bulte
| Caccia
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
|
Clouthier
| Coderre
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
|
Copps
| Cullen
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
|
Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
| Dromisky
|
Drouin
| Duhamel
| Easter
| Eggleton
|
Finlay
| Folco
| Gallaway
| Godfrey
|
Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
| Guarnieri
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
| Herron
|
Hubbard
| Iftody
| Jennings
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
|
Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
|
Lavigne
| Lee
| Leung
| Limoges
|
Longfield
| MacAulay
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
| Marleau
|
McCormick
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McTeague
|
McWhinney
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
| Mitchell
|
Muise
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
|
Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
| Peterson
|
Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
|
Price
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Robillard
|
Rock
| Saada
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
|
Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
|
Wappel
| Whelan
| Wilfert
| Wood – 144
|
PAIRED
Members
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare Motion No. 42 lost.
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.) moved that the
bill be concurred in.
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, if the House would agree I
would propose that you seek unanimous consent that members who
voted on the previous motion be recorded as having voted on the
motion now before the House, with Liberal members voting yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is it the pleasure
of the House to proceed in this fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Jay Hill: Mr. Speaker, on the concurrence motion at
report stage of this bill Canadian Alliance members will be
voting in favour.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, members of the Bloc
Quebecois are opposed to this motion.
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, the New Democratic Party members
who are present are opposed to this motion.
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, Progressive Conservative
members vote yes on this motion.
[English]
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Axworthy
| Bailey
| Baker
|
Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
| Benoit
|
Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Caccia
| Cadman
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Casson
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Charbonneau
| Chatters
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
Cummins
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
|
Discepola
| Doyle
| Dromisky
| Drouin
|
Duhamel
| Duncan
| Easter
| Eggleton
|
Epp
| Finlay
| Folco
| Gallaway
|
Gilmour
| Godfrey
| Goldring
| Graham
|
Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grewal
| Grose
| Guarnieri
|
Hanger
| Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
|
Herron
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
|
Hubbard
| Iftody
| Jennings
| Johnston
|
Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
|
Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Konrad
|
Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lee
|
Leung
| Limoges
| Longfield
| MacAulay
|
MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Manley
| Mark
| Marleau
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
|
Mayfield
| McCormick
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
|
McNally
| McTeague
| McWhinney
| Meredith
|
Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Minna
| Mitchell
|
Morrison
| Muise
| Murray
| Myers
|
Nault
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
|
Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
| Penson
|
Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
|
Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Price
| Proud
|
Proulx
| Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
|
Richardson
| Ritz
| Robillard
| Rock
|
Saada
| Schmidt
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
Strahl
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
|
Torsney
| Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
|
Volpe
| Wappel
| Whelan
| Wilfert
|
Williams
| Wood – 174
|
NAYS
Members
Asselin
| Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
|
Bigras
| Brien
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
|
Davies
| de Savoye
| Debien
| Desjarlais
|
Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
| Gauthier
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
|
Gruending
| Guimond
| Lebel
| Lill
|
Mancini
| Marchand
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| McDonough
|
Ménard
| Nystrom
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Proctor
|
Riis
| Robinson
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
Solomon
| St - Hilaire
| Stoffer
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
|
Turp
| Wasylycia - Leis – 38
|
PAIRED
Members
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare the motion
carried.
It being 7.20 p.m. this House stands adjourned until tomorrow at
10 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 7.20 p.m.)