36th Parliament, 2nd Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 19
CONTENTS
Friday, November 5, 1999
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
1005
| MUNICIPAL GRANTS ACT
|
| Bill C-10. Second reading
|
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| Ms. Carolyn Parrish |
1010
1015
| Mr. Werner Schmidt |
1020
1025
1030
1035
1040
1045
| Mr. Ghislain Lebel |
1050
1055
| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| TEACHERS' INSTITUTE ON CANADIAN PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY
|
| Mr. Reg Alcock |
| ROYAL CANADIAN LEGION
|
| Mr. Bob Mills |
| VETERANS WEEK
|
| Mr. Bryon Wilfert |
1100
| EAST ASIAN FESTIVAL
|
| Mrs. Karen Redman |
| THE LATE GREG MOORE
|
| Mr. Grant McNally |
| THE ECONOMY
|
| Mr. Jacques Saada |
| REMEMBRANCE DAY
|
| Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
| QUEBEC THEATRE PRODUCTIONS
|
| Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral |
1105
| SOHEIL MOSUN LIMITED
|
| Mr. Roy Cullen |
| EMPLOYMENT
|
| Mr. Tony Ianno |
| EMPLOYMENT
|
| Mr. Pat Martin |
| THE ECONOMY
|
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
| APEC INQUIRY
|
| Mr. Paul Mercier |
1110
| WAR VETERANS
|
| Mr. John Cannis |
| DOWN'S SYNDROME
|
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
| WOMEN'S HISTORY MONTH
|
| Ms. Marlene Catterall |
| SEASONAL INDUSTRIES
|
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
| REMEMBRANCE DAY
|
| Mr. Gilles Bernier |
1115
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
| GOVERNMENT GRANTS
|
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Chuck Strahl |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Chuck Strahl |
1120
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| AUDIOVISUAL PRODUCTIONS
|
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
| Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
| Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
| AGEISM
|
| Mr. Maurice Dumas |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Maurice Dumas |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Y2K
|
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
1125
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| AIRLINE INDUSTRY
|
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Mr. John Cannis |
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| TAXATION
|
| Mr. Ken Epp |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Grant McNally |
| Mr. Roy Cullen |
| THE DISABLED
|
| Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral |
1130
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. Inky Mark |
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
| ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE
|
| Mr. Chuck Cadman |
| Hon. Lawrence MacAulay |
| BUDGET SURPLUS
|
| Mr. Yvan Loubier |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
1135
| Mr. Yvan Loubier |
| Mr. Roy Cullen |
| PORT OF VANCOUVER
|
| Ms. Val Meredith |
| Mrs. Judi Longfield |
| Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
| Mrs. Judi Longfield |
| FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
|
| Mr. Richard Marceau |
| Mr. Bob Speller |
| IMMIGRATION
|
| Ms. Sophia Leung |
| Ms. Elinor Caplan |
1140
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Jim Gouk |
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| HIGHWAYS
|
| Ms. Bev Desjarlais |
| Mr. Stan Dromisky |
| Ms. Bev Desjarlais |
| Mr. Stan Dromisky |
| HOUSING
|
| Mr. Gilles Bernier |
| Ms. Carolyn Parrish |
1145
| Mr. Gilles Bernier |
| Ms. Carolyn Parrish |
| THE ENVIRONMENT
|
| Mr. Mac Harb |
| Mr. Brent St. Denis |
| IMMIGRATION
|
| Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
| Ms. Elinor Caplan |
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
1150
| FISHERIES
|
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| 1906 CENSUS
|
| Mr. René Laurin |
| Mr. John Cannis |
| ELECTIONS IN HAITI
|
| Mr. John Godfrey |
| Mr. Eugène Bellemare |
| VETERANS AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Peter Goldring |
| Hon. George S. Baker |
| POLLUTION OF DRINKING WATER
|
| Mr. Ghislain Fournier |
1155
| Mr. Stan Dromisky |
| IMMIGRATION
|
| Ms. Louise Hardy |
| Ms. Elinor Caplan |
| FISHERIES
|
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
| Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal |
| THE SENATE
|
| Mr. Rob Anders |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
|
| Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
1200
| PRESENCE IN GALLERY
|
| The Speaker |
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
| WAYS AND MEANS
|
| Notice of Motion
|
| Hon. Martin Cauchon |
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Fisheries and Oceans
|
| Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal |
| Industry
|
| Mr. John Cannis |
| GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Industry
|
| Mr. Ian Murray |
| MANITOBA CLAIM SETTLEMENTS IMPLEMENTATION ACT
|
| Bill C-14. Introduction and first reading
|
| Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal |
1205
| STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS ACT
|
| Bill C-310. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Ted White |
| PLAIN LANGUAGE ACT
|
| Bill C-311. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Ted White |
| NATIONAL ARCHIVES OF CANADA ACT
|
| Bill C-312. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Mac Harb |
| VIA RAIL COMMERCIALIZATION ACT
|
| Bill C-313. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Jim Gouk |
1210
| FIREARMS ACT
|
| Bill C-314. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Jim Gouk |
| PETITIONS
|
| Alcohol Consumption
|
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
| The Constitution
|
| Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
| The Constitution
|
| Mr. Jim Gouk |
| Marriage
|
| Mr. Jim Gouk |
| Child Pornography
|
| Mr. Jim Gouk |
| Immigration
|
| Mr. Jim Gouk |
1215
| Firearms
|
| Mr. Jim Gouk |
| The Senate
|
| Mr. Nelson Riis |
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| MUNICIPAL GRANTS ACT
|
| Bill C-10. Second reading
|
| Mr. Ghislain Lebel |
1220
1225
| Mr. Pat Martin |
1230
1235
1240
1245
| Mr. Gilles Bernier |
1250
1255
1300
| Mr. Bryon Wilfert |
1305
1310
| Mr. Gilles Bernier |
1315
| Mr. Inky Mark |
1320
| Mr. Werner Schmidt |
1325
| Mr. Inky Mark |
| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
1330
| CANADA POST CORPORATION ACT
|
| Bill C-238. Second reading
|
| Mr. Pat Martin |
1335
1340
1345
| Ms. Carolyn Parrish |
1350
1355
| Mr. Werner Schmidt |
1400
1405
| Mr. Ghislain Lebel |
1410
1415
| Mr. Gilles Bernier |
1420
1425
| Mr. John Bryden |
| Appendix
|
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 19
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Friday, November 5, 1999
The House met at 10 a.m.
Prayers
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
1005
[English]
MUNICIPAL GRANTS ACT
Hon. Don Boudria (for the Minister of Public Works and
Government Services) moved that Bill C-10, an act to amend the
Municipal Grants Act, be read the second time and referred to a
committee.
Ms. Carolyn Parrish (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise to address the House on Bill C-10, the payments in lieu of
taxes act. I am speaking on behalf of the Minister of Public
Works and Government Services in support of this important
legislation which will go a long way toward strengthening the
relationship between the federal government and municipalities
across Canada. As a former municipal politician, it is a real
pleasure for me to speak to this bill in the House.
Before I address the legislation I would like to congratulate
the minister for his dedicated and constructive approach to this
issue. His efforts to improve the fairness, equity and
predictability of federal payments in lieu of taxes are truly
commendable. In particular, I underline the minister's decision
to directly involve local officials in developing these changes
to the Municipal Grants Act and program. An obvious sensitivity
to the opinions of municipal politicians by the minister is
reflective of his own years in municipal politics.
In his speech to the Federation of Canadian Municipalities in
June of 1998, the minister made it clear that municipal input was
absolutely essential if we were to find the best possible
structure for municipal payments in lieu of taxes. He also made
a commitment at that time to hear the voices of those who
represent Canadians at the municipal level.
Throughout the summer of 1998 the minister presided over 11
round table discussions in major centres from coast to coast to
obtain firsthand views on the municipal grants program and to
gather advice on how to make it work better for local communities
and citizens. These meetings gave mayors, municipal officials
and appraisal professionals the opportunity to have a direct say
in modernizing Canada's payment in lieu of taxes system.
I know for a fact that the minister's round tables were greatly
appreciated by municipal officials. His face to face meetings
were a gesture of solidarity between the two levels of
government, a sign of respect and a clear recognition of the
challenging work undertaken by municipal governments.
The minister's undertaking and the enthusiastic participation of
municipal officials demonstrate that much can be achieved through
dialogue and co-operation. Indeed, the minister's consultation
tour has led directly to some important changes in the way the
renamed and reformed municipal payments program will be managed.
Two examples come to mind. First, the minister has undertaken
to establish a municipal payments program advisory council of
stakeholder representatives to give advice on administrative and
policy issues relating to the management of the program.
This advisory council will carry on the constructive dialogue
initiated by the round table consultations.
1010
As we learned during those discussions, issues that arise must
not be be allowed to simmer for years until they begin to
adversely affect relations between governments, as has happened
in the past. They must be dealt with expeditiously and the
advisory council will play an important role in this regard.
The second ministerial initiative is the decision to engage
national professional appraisal associations to draft best
practices for unique types of properties. As the minister has
noted, problems often arise when federal and municipal appraisers
cannot agree on the value of certain types of federal properties
such as penitentiaries and airports. There are simply no
equivalent assets in the private sector against which these
properties can be compared.
By developing best practices through a co-operative process
involving municipal and federal stakeholders the government will
ensure consistency in the treatment of these properties across
Canada. We will also avoid unnecessary and acrimonious
disagreements with municipal officials and improve the
predictability of payments to municipalities. These
administrative issues can be addressed without legislation;
however, some of the changes included in the package proposed by
the Minister of Public Works and Government Services do require
amendments to the Municipal Grants Act, which is the purpose of
Bill C-10.
During their meetings with the minister, municipal officials
made it clear that the Government of Canada must behave in a
manner similar to other property owners. This is what Bill C-10
aims to achieve. The underlying objective of the proposed
legislation is to make federal payments in lieu of taxes as much
like the taxes levied against private landowners as is possible,
while still recognizing the government's exemption from local
taxation under the Constitution Act, 1867.
Complicating this balancing act is the need to account for the
uniqueness of certain types of federal properties, as I mentioned
a moment ago.
The way the government has pursued these objectives is by
strengthening the principles of fairness and equity that have
guided the municipal grants program since its inception some 50
years ago. Let me give the House some examples.
Bill C-10 will require the federal government to pay a
supplementary amount equivalent to interest when payments in lieu
of taxes are unreasonably delayed. It will make the disputes
resolution process more accessible to municipal governments and
make the objectivity of the disputes advisory committee more
apparent.
Bill C-10 will empower the minister to make payments in lieu of
taxes on tenanted federal property when these tenants default on
their tax obligations. Under the current regime municipal
governments often have little recourse when a tenant in a federal
property defaults on taxes.
The proposed legislation will also remove limitations on
payments in lieu of taxes to first nations governments. It will
change the reference in the legislation from the word “grants”
to the word “payments” in lieu of taxes. This change will
reflect the fact that the government receives valuable direct and
indirect services from local governments for its payments in lieu
of taxes.
Bill C-10 will expand the definition of federal property
contained in the legislation to put the government on a more
level playing field with taxable property owners.
In his speech to the Federation of Canadian Municipalities the
minister also indicated that a primary goal of the consultation
and reform exercise would be to improve the predictability of
payments in lieu of taxes. I might add on a personal note, as a
former school board chair, that knowing how much money we could
budget for each year was a very important issue with which we had
great trouble.
Again, several measures in Bill C-10 are designed to achieve
this goal. For example, the government has undertaken to make
payments according to the municipally established schedule,
assuming information from assessment and taxation authorities is
received on a timely basis, equivalent to that accorded other
taxpayers. As mentioned earlier, the government will pay
supplementary amounts equivalent to interest when these payments
are delayed.
The government will also work with assessment authorities to
attempt to finalize federal property values prior to the close of
the assessment roll. This will reduce the number of disputes and
improve predictability for municipalities when they set their tax
rates and when they set their budgets.
The government will be working with tax appraisal professionals
to arrive at an acceptable and balanced means of valuing certain
types of property. The government will also clarify the process
to be followed when a taxing authority is unwilling or unable to
provide a service to federal property which it customarily
provides to taxable property.
This is the first comprehensive review of the municipal payments
program in 20 years.
1015
Given this fact, I am pleased to inform hon. members that these
proposed changes will have a minimal impact on the cost of the
program. In fact, the cost increase will amount to less than 1%
of a $400 million program, a total of about $1.7 additional
millions, which will be distributed among departments.
As elected representatives, we are all mindful of the need to
control the cost of government. However, I believe the movement
of the federal government toward a more equitable position in
relation to taxable property owners will provide more protection
from large increases in costs by aligning the government with the
common interests of the taxable community.
Let me reiterate that Bill C-10 strengthens the fairness, equity
and predictability of federal payments in lieu of taxes. It
achieves a balance between ensuring that Canada pays its fair
share of the cost of municipal services while protecting the
broader interests of all Canadian taxpayers. It deserves the
support of hon. members on both sides of the House and I would
ask them to join me in supporting the bill.
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I want
to express to the House my pleasure in being able to rise to the
discussion on this particular bill.
It is, in many respects, a very good bill. As has been pointed
out by the hon. parliamentary secretary, it follows the 11 round
table discussions where representatives got together from all the
provinces and a variety of municipalities, large and small, and
had their input into this particular bill. While the bill does
in many ways meet some of the discussions that took place and
some of the requests they made, there are some areas where the
bill falls short and where the suggestions made were not
accepted.
I want to address the House in a way that suggests we ought to
look at this not as a fait accompli or something that is finished
but rather as something that is in the process of being put
together.
We will have to recognize that it does improve the equality,
fairness, equity and predictability of payments to municipalities
and other taxing authorities in terms of the taxes that might
otherwise be paid by people who own property in those particular
taxing authority jurisdictions.
It gives the minister the right and power to pay those taxes and
to make those payments in lieu of taxes, and also to make
payments in case those taxes are late for whatever reason that
might be. It also adds to the provisions of the act a
predictability factor in the sense that very often the assessment
authority does not have its final number complete. The
government has always had the practice in the past of withholding
at least 5% of that amount. That will now be brought forward. If
it is not, then the interest, or the amount of interest that
might have been calculated out of that amount, will be paid. That
is a good provision within the bill.
The bill also allows the federal government to collect from
third parties if they do not pay their rent or taxes to make sure
that the proper taxing authority gets that particular payment.
That is a desirable thing as well.
It establishes an advisory panel, or council as the hon.
parliamentary secretary has indicated, which is designed to
resolve disputes between taxing authorities and paying
authorities, in this case the Government of Canada. At the same
time as it does that, the advisory panel also has absolutely no
teeth connected with it. This then raises some concerns that we
have.
The first concern is that the advisory panel really has no
teeth. It may make recommendations at the point of the
assessment. It may make recommendations about whether the
payment was late and was unreasonably withheld at the usual time
or on the amount of money that should be paid. It can make
recommendations but there is absolutely no provision in the bill
that suggests that the minister may not unreasonably withhold
approval of these recommendations. As a consequence, the
minister's discretion is complete.
He or she may accept the recommendations, amend them, reject them
or simply ignore them. The interesting thing is that the panel
has no real authority.
1020
The panel is also to help resolve issues with regard to disputes
when it comes to crown corporations, especially agents of the
crown corporations that really exist for the creation of profit
for the Government of Canada. In this case too, the panel may
make recommendations but there is absolutely no obligation on the
part of the corporation to accept those recommendations. The
corporation may amend them, reject them or simply accept them,
but it is totally at the discretion of the corporation to do so.
I think that is a shortcoming within the bill.
The other point within the bill is that the minister's
discretion is so complete that the apparent willingness or
direction from the municipalities and taxing authority is that he
actually pay these amounts and that he do so at a predictable
time and so on. This discretion is totally his. As a
consequence, he has an authority that no other property taxpayer
in Canada has. When we get our tax notices, we must pay our
taxes. If we do not pay them we get taken to court and our
property is eventually confiscated. The minister has total and
complete authority and discretion as to what he will and what he
will not do. I think that is a shortcoming.
The other aspect to the bill is that it totally ignores the
recommendations from the committee. This was a joint technical
committee on payments in lieu of taxes. This particular group
made a representation to the minister saying that when it comes
to schedule 4, these are agent crown corporations which are
supposed to make money, should all be included under schedule 4,
and that is what schedule 4 actually says. Specifically they
recommended that Canada Post and the Royal Mint be added to
schedule 4.
Since then, we have had the amendment of the Canada Mortgage and
Housing Act. The act clearly indicates that the Canada Mortgage
and Housing Corporation may make a profit and that the profit
ought to accrue and will accrue to the shareholder, which is the
Government of Canada, and it should be paying a business tax when
and if the taxing authority taxes businesses that are in the
business of making profit. There is this a very startling
omission in the bill by not including under schedule 4 these
corporations.
Some may wonder why it matters. It matters a lot because there
are taxes here that are due and should be paid, and payment
should have been made in lieu of those taxes. This is
particularly evident when one looks at that particular list of
corporations. Under schedule 4, we find the Business Development
of Canada, which is clearly a profit making corporation and these
others should be added in exactly the same way as that one is.
We want to be very careful how we examine the bill because we
need to recognize that the bill has within it some very, very
positive things, but it also has some negative things in it and
we need to recognize what they are.
One area in which I have a special concern has to do with clause
3(6). This clause reads as follows:
“For the purposes of the definition “federal property ” in
subsection (1), federal property does not include
(i) that is occupied for residential purposes by an employee of
Her Majesty in right of Canada who would not, but for that
employment, live on that reserve or land, or
(ii) that is occupied by a minister of the Crown;
1025
That sounds very good, particularly when one reads the
explanatory notes as to the purpose of this particular change in
the bill. The purpose is:
To ensure that First Nations governments have the same access to
federal payments in lieu of taxes as do other “taxing
authorities”.
When the First Nation government is granted the status of a
“taxing authority” as defined in section 2(1) of the Municipal
Grants Act, they are entitled to the same payments in lieu of
taxes as “federal property” as all other taxing authorities.
Under subsection 2(3)(c)(ii) of the current Act, the definition
of “federal property” on Indian reserves is limited to property
occupied by departments for providing service to the off-Reserve
population, a restriction that does not exists for other taxing
authorities.
That seems fair and equitable and really sounds great, but let
us take a closer look at the Municipal Grants Act definition of
taxing authority. I want to warn our observers that this will be
a significant bit of reading and may very well cause some of them
to ask themselves exactly what is going on here.
I will read the definition of taxing authority from the
Municipal Grants Act. It states:
“taxing authority” means
(a) any municipality, province, municipal or provincial board,
commission, corporation or other authority that levies and
collects a real property tax or a frontage or area tax pursuant
to an Act of the legislature of a province,
(b) any council of a band within the meaning of the Indian Act
that levies and collects a real property tax or a frontage or
area tax pursuant to an Act of Parliament,
(c) any band within the meaning of the Cree-Naskapi (of Quebec)
Act, chapter 18 of the Statutes of Canada, 1984, that levies and
collects a tax on interests in Category IA land or Category IA-N
land as defined in that Act,
I will quote from subsection(2):
(2) For the purposes of the definition “taxing authority” in
subsection (1), where one authority collects a real property tax
or a frontage or area tax that is levied by another authority,
the authority that collects the tax shall be deemed to be the
authority that levies and collects the tax.
(3) For the purposes of the definition “federal property” in
subsection (1), federal property does not include
(a) any
structure or work that is not a building designed primarily for
the shelter of people, living things, plant or personal property
or, for greater certainty, any structure, work, machinery or
equipment included in Schedule II,
(b) any real property
developed and used as a park and situated within an area defined
as “urban” by Statistics Canada, as of the most recent census of
the population of Canada taken by Statistics Canada, other than
any real property acquired pursuant to the National Parks Act or
the Historic Sites and Monuments Act or any real property that is
occupied or used as a park and has been prescribed to be included
in the definition “federal property” pursuant to paragraph
9(1)(d),
(c) any Indian reserve, except for that part of the reserve (i)
that is occupied for residential purposes by an employee of Her
Majesty in right of Canada who would not, but for that
employment, live on that reserve and that is prescribed
The act makes some changes in this area but the real issue goes
back to the first part of this, which states:
any council of a band within the meaning of the Indian Act that
levies and collects a real property tax or a frontage or area tax
pursuant to an Act of Parliament,
(c) any band within the meaning of the Cree-Naskapi (of Quebec)
Act, chapter 18 of the Statutes of Canada
The issue here is whether Bill C-9, which numerically precedes
Bill C-10, creates a new kind of taxing authority, a taxing
authority that is the result of amendments to the Constitution of
Canada. I would suggest to the House that to change the
Constitution of Canada is not something that can happen in a
piece of legislation in the House.
1030
However it appears as if Bill C-9 creates under the Nisga'a
treaty a level of government that is not recognized in the
Constitution of Canada. The Constitution of Canada clearly
recognizes the federal government, provincial government and
municipal government. That is where it ends. Somehow another
level of government has been created under Bill C-9 which,
according to the act that I just read with regard to a taxing
authority, leads into some difficulties.
Some may ask what the complication is. I ask, what other level
of government can override provincial and federal laws? There is
not one. Under Bill C-9 and the Nisga'a treaty it is possible
that a new kind of government structure can override federal and
provincial laws. It is clearly stated that it does so in 14
areas. It says that the Nisga'a government can override federal
and provincial laws in 14 areas.
I will read those areas into the record: Nisga'a citizenship;
structure, administration, management and operation of Nisga'a
government; Nisga'a lands and assets; regulation, licensing and
prohibition of businesses, professions and trades; preservation,
promotion and development of Nisga'a language and culture; direct
taxation of Nisga'a citizens; adoption; child and family
services; preschool to grade 12 education; advanced education;
organization and structure of health care delivery; authorization
and licensing of aboriginal healers; Nisga'a annual fishing plans
for harvest and the sale of fish and aquatic plants; and Nisga'a
wildlife and migratory birds entitlement.
Those are areas in which the federal and provincial governments
may make laws and the particular government structure created
under Bill C-9 allows this group to override these provisions.
How can that be when the constitution clearly does not recognize
this form of government?
This bill allows payment in lieu of taxes to a government that
is neither fiscally nor democratically accountable. That is the
other part of Bill C-9 which I take strong exception to. We
would think that this was a simple matter but it is anything but
simple.
Bill C-9 creates three levels of government within the Nisga'a
treaty. There is the central Nisga'a Lisims, then four village
governments and three urban local governments. Most of the
individual Nisga'a will be dependent upon that government
structure. It is as if this government is somehow going to be
independent and able to provide and have the resources to allow
its citizens to make a living and create the kind of successful
and healthy environment for themselves and their families.
From the provisions of that particular treaty, it is pretty
clear that that is very doubtful. There will be a concentration
of power in this group of government structures at three
different levels. The Nisga'a citizens will be largely dependent
on either the government largesse or will be employed by certain
government corporations. It is concentrating power into a small
group and giving it big powers.
Gordon Gibson is a very strong scholar of democratic processes.
He was the leader of the Liberal Party in British Columbia and is
now a fellow of the Fraser Institute in British Columbia. He has
done a lot of research on the business of power and how democracy
actually allocates power to certain groups. He made the
observation: “Small governments with large powers may acquire
the ability to control the citizens rather than vice versa”.
That is absolutely critical to the success of a democratic
system of government. The people ought to be in control of the
government, not the other way around. That is an abuse of the
basic principles and philosophies of a democratic form of
government.
I suggest that not only has a new form of government been
created under the Nisga'a treaty, but it has also created power
in that group which really is too great in order to manage in a
truly democratic fashion.
1035
There is another significant part. This particular government
will not be spending its own money. It will be sitting there
spreading largesse to its citizens, but it will not be money
collected from the citizens given back to them in one program or
another. No, it will be money collected from taxpayers across
Canada. That is the money it will be spending.
Some people argue that it is not really all that much. The
minister of Indian affairs told us it would only cost us $500
million. It is pretty clear that is the absolute minimum amount
and if we analyse what some of the costs will be, it will be
closer to $1.3 billion. Talk about a change. We should take
cognizance of that.
Another point to recognize is that with the new government
created under Nisga'a, the act does not allow non-Nisga'a people
to vote for that government. They can pay taxes to it. That
government has the right to assess their property and force them
to pay taxes but in no way are they represented on the group that
actually makes the decisions about how their property should be
assessed, how much the mill rate should be and the payment that
should be made. These are serious shortcomings and should not be
allowed.
We need to recognize that there are some very serious problems.
A taxing authority has been created. Is this really a taxing
authority in terms of the provisions and definition in the
Municipal Grants Act as currently written, and the Constitution
of Canada itself which overrides all these considerations? What
ought to be done?
There ought to be some equality created. The kind of government
structure that exists within the Nisga'a and the government
structure that exists in other provinces and municipalities ought
to be the same. The rules governing the election of these people
ought to be the same. Everybody ought to be allowed to vote for
those people who will ultimately decide how the money will be
spent, how they will be taxed and things of that sort.
The equality principle is absolutely fundamental in order for us
as democratic citizens to feel that we have some equal
opportunity to influence what is happening in government. Instead
of doing that, Bill C-9 builds another brick in the wall of
separation between ethnic groups. For that reason I have some
serious difficulties with it. But that is only one part of it.
The other part is that there is no equality among Canadians
generally, and even among those people who live on the Nisga'a
lands. There are those who are Nisga'a and those who are not.
There is also a lack of accountability. There is no clear
statement about how this group shall be accountable.
We can read the provisions of the treaty and say some of that is
provided for. I will read some of things that should be provided
for, and to a degree are, but not completely or enough.
With the procedures and processes for the election of local
aboriginal governments on reserves whether it be Nisga'a or
elsewhere, the services of Elections Canada should be made
available to deal with allegations of vote rigging and
intimidation. That provision is missing. It is important that
Elections Canada have something to say about that.
The fiscal accounting procedures of local aboriginal
governments, including the provision of the services of the
Auditor General of Canada to ensure fiscal responsibility, should
be made available and should apply in this case.
The direction of a greater portion of Indian affairs funding, or
Nisga'a funding, should go directly to aboriginal persons on the
reserves. Then local aboriginal governments would have to tax it
from its own people in order to get access. That would put the
purse strings of local aboriginal governments in the hands of the
people to whom the governments should be accountable.
This is the essence of responsible government that
non-aboriginals have enjoyed for 150 years, but which our
aboriginal people are still waiting for on reserves.
1040
We need to have democracy. We need to have equality. We need
to have accountability. We all need those things. For some
reason, those fundamental principles are missing in Bill C-9 in
the Nisga'a treaty.
Now we are creating a situation where we put into doubt all of
those things. What are our children and our grandchildren going
to think? What are people going to think 14 years from now? It
is serious stuff.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In fairness to the
member for Kelowna who very cleverly and I thought with great
ingenuity managed to bring the Nisga'a treaty into the Municipal
Governments Act, my signal was that it might be time to make that
linkage again.
Perhaps I was alone, but I am sure other members were wondering
what bill was being debated. As I said earlier this week, the
responsibility rests with the member not to challenge the Chair
on relevance. I thought that the member for Kelowna had done a
very good job in linking the two, but once that link has been
severed, it is the responsibility of the member to bring it back
again.
Mr. Werner Schmidt: Mr. Speaker, with pleasure I will
bring it back to Bill C-10.
Bill C-10 clearly indicates that it is to meet three principles:
equality, fairness and predictability. Those are the three
principles that are supposed to be evident in Bill C-10. To a
degree they are in Bill C-10, but to a degree they are not. It
is the degree to which they are not that I wish to address and
illustrate through the provisions of the Nisga'a treaty. It is a
very practical example of how this works.
I want to go further than that and indicate clearly how we would
establish the business of becoming accountable and more equal in
terms of the treatment of people, not only of Nisga'a but of all
people across Canada, in particular people of ethnic origin that
might be called aboriginal.
The Reform Party's ultimate goal is that all people be full and
equal participants in Canadian citizenship, indistinguishable in
law and treatment from other Canadians. What could be more fair
than that kind of a statement with regard to Bill C-10 which
talks about taxation and payment in lieu of taxes?
The Reform Party maintains also that any form of Indian
self-government will be a delegated form of government, and all
land within the borders of Canada will remain part of Canada. The
laws of Canada and the charters, including the Canadian
constitution and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms,
will apply to Indian government. Any laws enacted by Indian
governments must conform with the laws of Canada.
That is precisely the point we want to make. This is another
law that should be applied in detail here.
The Reform Party also supports that the Auditor General of
Canada has full authority to review the management of federal
funds by Indian governments and all governments. We want that to
happen.
The Reform Party supports the right of individuals living on
reserves and eligible for government benefits to choose and
receive those benefits either directly from the federal
government or through the Indian government. That is a very
significant issue and deals directly with payment in lieu of
taxes. Why would the government make payment in lieu of taxes if
it was not to make sure that the people got the necessary
services from government and the taxing authority?
I want to ask specifically whether or not this issue is a
significant one for us to consider in great detail.
I wish to draw to the attention of the House exactly where some
of the people sit with regard to this issue.
Eighty-nine per cent of the people in British Columbia believe
that they did not have an adequate opportunity to provide input
into the Nisga'a treaty. Ninety-two per cent believe that they
should have the right to vote on the principles of the treaty.
The respondents want their member of parliament to vote against
the treaty.
1045
This includes Vancouver Centre at 81.5%, Vancouver South at
92.2%, Port Moody—Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam at 94%, Richmond at
92.3%, Vancouver—Kingsway at 82.1% and Vancouver Quadra at
91.5%. That is how their constituents want them to vote, but how
will they vote?
Not only do we have constitutional and potential legal problems
but we also have a political problem. Will the Liberal
government continue to blatantly show contempt for democracy and
ignore what the people want? Will the government continue to
show spite and disdain for the people of Canada and the
democratic process and not allow its political people to reflect
what people want?
I have attempted to show that the consecutive bills, Bill C-9
and Bill C-10, are related in effect and to each other. Both
fall short of what people want. Both should be amended to more
accurately reflect what people want.
The advisory panel created under Bill C-10 was created at the
advice of the municipal councillors, and rightly so, but the bill
does not go far enough to give these people any kind of authority
so that their recommendations will be treated seriously.
The minister's discretion with regard to whether he accepts,
amends or rejects their recommendations should be tied up. His
discretion should be limited much more than is the case. That is
what the people want. That is not what the minister has given
us.
It was also clearly suggested that money making crown
corporations, which are set up to make money for the Government
of Canada, should be included under schedule 4. Again these
corporations are not talked about at all.
This is not listening to the people. It is saying to the people
that it does not matter what they recommend. There is already
evidence that it will not listen. How can we believe that it
will now listen when the panel makes a recommendation?
We need included in the bill that the recommendations of the
advisory panel not be unreasonably refused by the minister.
Finally, schedule 4 must include corporations that make money.
There are three specifically. Two were named by the joint
technical advisory committee on payment in lieu of taxes and
another I have added. They are Canada Mortgage and Housing
Corporation, Canada Post Corporation and Royal Canadian Mint.
[Translation]
Mr. Ghislain Lebel (Chambly, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the member who
spoke before me spent a good half hour using Bill C-10 as an
excuse to introduce the Reform Party's objections to the Nisga'a
treaty. I, however, am going to try to get the debate back to
Bill C-10, back to the municipalities and to federal-provincial
relations.
This bill is going to have a title that is far better adapted to
reality—for which I congratulate the minister. It will no longer
speak of grants. I am going to read its official full title—an
act respecting payments in lieu of taxes to municipalities,
provinces and other bodies exercising functions of local
government that levy real property taxes.
I trust then that there will be no more talk of grants, for a
grant is a gift, and that means that the recipient, the grantee,
is receiving a present. The federal government is very big on
giving gifts. Moreover, in this bill, as my distinguished
colleague from Vancouver Quadra has indicated, the minister's
discretionary power is omnipresent.
That is the point. It is the minister who will be going about
distributing largesse. That is one thing we can say about the
Liberals: they are past masters at this kind of disguised gift
and at ministerial interference. If an MP from their party asks
the minister to exercise his discretionary power on behalf of a
municipality in his riding, it is a rare thing for the minister
to refuse.
1050
However, if someone from another political party is facing the
same problem, the minister rarely has the funds. He is rarely
able to comply and to exercise this discretionary power, which
he has obtained under just about all the laws passed in this
parliament since 1993. I have been in this House since October
of that year.
We can congratulate the government on the new title. However, it
is not accurate when it comes to legislation on payments made in
lieu of taxes to municipalities.
There is a difference between income tax and property tax. But
this is a minor fault that will not be held against the
government.
What we can criticize it for, however, is paving the way for
discretionary action, petty political jockeying, under the table
arrangements, as well as unjustified and unjustifiable gifts. We
are not happy about this aspect of the bill. The minister's
discretionary power is really exorbitant.
There is also something of grave concern to municipalities, in
particular to the Union des municipalités du Québec, which we
contacted. The bill was introduced here on October 27, 1999 at
first reading, that is, only a few working days ago.
Municipalities were not given much time to examine the bill
carefully and assess its real impact.
The government is pressing us to adopt this bill immediately
but, frankly, municipalities are not pleased with this
legislation.
If we look at the substance of the bill and draw a parallel
between this piece of legislation and other ones, we see a
constant. It is always the same thing when the government tables
any bill. With all its bills, the government has this annoying
propensity, this bad habit of targeting the poor and making them
pay because they form the largest group.
The Employment Insurance Act is a case in point.
Today, we are told that the minister—who is using very
conservative figures—will amass a surplus of some $95 billion over
the next five years.
But where does he take all that money? He gets it through cuts
in transfers to the provinces, which are directly accountable to
people. The provinces are on the front line when it comes to
dealing with the public. So, the federal government makes cuts
affecting hospitals and many other services, uses its tremendous
taxing power to get more money, and then its spending power, all
this with a cavalier attitude, bragging all along about having
money and being able to interfere in just about any area.
This often creates false hopes, false expectations or even real
expectations. However, when the time comes to meet these
expectations, the federal government passes the buck to the
provinces.
In Quebec, we have a pharmacare program. It cost Quebecers a lot
of money to establish that program. All Quebecers are paying for
it. I am told that the program is working well. Fortunately, and
thank goodness, I am not sick and I do not really use that
program. But everyone says that it is working well. When the
federal government noticed how successful the program was, it
hastened to step in.
1055
In the budget speech, the government mentioned the possibility
of launching a pharmacare program. Once the program is up and
running, once people have come to trust it and rely on it, the
federal government will pull out, as it always does and leave
people stuck with a program that they will then have to
beginning supporting themselves.
It is the same thing with employment insurance. This government
does not have the courage to bring in tax increases, but it
knows that most of those with jobs pay taxes, since all of those
with jobs are subject to tax.
So, by keeping EI premiums high, the government can count on
those with jobs paying premiums and will be able to rake in
$95.5 billion over the next five years, which is shocking and
scandalous.
When I say this bill is no different, or that the attitudes are
the same as in the past, I mean that when a municipality wants
to build a road, water or sewer infrastructure, the cost of
laying down a bed so that lines do not shift, crack or break
through freezing and thawing is extremely high. Taxpayers
figure that the cost of bringing in a line, or building a road
or sidewalks will be shared among users, those who will benefit
from the infrastructure.
This holds for everyone except the government. In my riding,
for instance, there is a rehabilitation centre for young
offenders with about 800 feet in frontage.
The Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member. He has a
little over 30 minutes remaining, but it being 11 o'clock, the
House will now proceed to Statements by Members. When we resume
after question period, he will have the floor.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
TEACHERS' INSTITUTE ON CANADIAN PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY
Mr. Reg Alcock (Winnipeg South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this
week 70 outstanding educators from across Canada are attending
the third annual Teachers' Institute on Canadian Parliamentary
Democracy on Parliament Hill. This initiative, launched by the
Library of Parliament in collaboration with the Senate and House
of Commons, is an important and unique professional development
opportunity.
The program is designed to provide educators with valuable
knowledge regarding parliament, legislation and democracy in
Canada. It also offers them the chance to meet individually with
parliamentarians to learn about parliamentary procedure and to
view this institution through the eyes of those who work here.
The Teachers' Institute on Canadian Parliamentary Democracy has
become a great tool for teachers across our country who want to
further their knowledge about the Parliament of Canada. I salute
everyone involved in the Teachers' Institute on Canadian
Parliamentary Democracy for the support of this important and
useful educational experience.
* * *
ROYAL CANADIAN LEGION
Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I take this
opportunity to pay tribute to the many volunteers and veterans
who perform such valuable work for the Royal Canadian Legion.
In particular, I draw special attention to my constituent, Mr.
Roy Frisken, the current president of the Red Deer Legion who has
volunteered thousands of hours to both the legion and other
community organizations.
In 1943 Roy joined the Canadian army and in 1945 he was a
participant in the heavy fighting that occurred in northern
Holland. Roy has been instrumental in supporting local youth
activities that occur in our riding. They all know they can
count on Roy. It is this kind of leadership that shows
continuous dedication to our nation.
Roy Frisken and many other volunteers across the country have
played a crucial role in shaping the fantastic communities we now
enjoy. With Remembrance Day next Thursday, I ask members to take
the time to thank veterans for their sacrifices and to support
their local legions so that they can continue to provide
important services to the community. We will not forget.
* * *
VETERANS WEEK
Mr. Bryon Wilfert (Oak Ridges, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, today
marks the beginning of Veterans Week, a week when we remember the
sacrifices of all those who served for Canada.
This year I would like to pay tribute to our Canadian war
artists. Through Max Aitken's efforts during the first world war,
over 850 works including paintings, sculptures and prints were
brought together in the Canadian War Memorial's collection.
During the second world war, Vincent Massey and the director of
the National Gallery, H. O. McCurry, compiled a collection of
over 1,000 creations. The entire collection from both world wars
was transferred to the Canadian War Museum in 1971.
1100
This museum presently displays only a fraction of the
collection.
One year and one day ago the Minister of Canadian Heritage
announced that a piece of land near CFB Rockcliffe would be held
for a new facility. It is time that we honour all those who
served this country of ours and especially our Canadian war
artists by displaying their works with dignity and pride in a new
home worthy of their sacrifices.
* * *
EAST ASIAN FESTIVAL
Mrs. Karen Redman (Kitchener Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
this month in Kitchener-Waterloo at Renison College we are
celebrating the annual East Asian Festival.
This multicultural event is a wonderful celebration of the
heritage of East Asian Canadians. The cultures of Taiwan, Japan,
Korea and China are each represented throughout the four day
festival.
This event gives members of our local community and students at
the University of Waterloo the opportunity to experience and
learn about East Asian traditions. Guests to the festival have
the opportunity to experience lion dancing, East Asian foods and
martial arts demonstrations, and to participate in business and
educational workshops.
I would like to extend my congratulations to all of the
volunteers who have given so much of their time to make this
festival the great success that it is. In particular, I would
like to commend Dr. Gail Cuthbert-Brandt, principal of Renison
College, for her commitment to this very worthy project.
* * *
THE LATE GREG MOORE
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
thousands of people attended a memorial service in Maple Ridge in
my riding to honour the life of our hometown hero, Indy CART
racer, Greg Moore.
Greg's accomplishments on the racetrack have been well
documented. He was the youngest racer to ever win the Indy Lites
championship at age 20 and the youngest to win an Indy CART race
at age 22.
The greatness of Greg Moore lay not only in his racetrack
performances, but in the fact that he remained a regular guy.
Although he had become a star in his chosen profession, he still
had time for his fans, charity work and his hometown. He never
forgot his roots.
Greg was an ambassador for auto racing, for Maple Ridge and for
Canada. Many dream but few dare to take action to attain that
dream. Greg pursued his dream of racing with persistence and
passion.
Today, together, we continue to mourn the loss of a great young
man. On behalf of all members of the House, we extend our
deepest sympathies to Greg's family and friends and offer our
prayers of support at this very difficult time.
* * *
[Translation]
THE ECONOMY
Mr. Jacques Saada (Brossard—La Prairie, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this
morning Statistics Canada announced some good economic news: in
October, the unemployment rate dropped 0.3% to 7.2%, which is
the lowest it has been since March 1990.
This economic indicator shows us that our economic and financial
policies have been effective. The conditions created by the
Liberal government are contributing to the economic growth of
Canada and to improving Canadians' quality of life.
Without getting hung up in a lot of numbers, let us simply say
that, this year alone, 253,000 new jobs have been created.
While the opposition parties have been wasting their time
tilting at windmills, 253,000 more people have found dignity in
employment. While the opposition acts up, we have been acting.
* * *
[English]
REMEMBRANCE DAY
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, as
we look ahead to a new millennium Canadians have a great deal to
look forward to and be thankful for. We owe a great deal to
those Canadians who fought and gave their lives for freedom and
the quality of life we now enjoy.
To honour our Calgary veterans, I am sponsoring one veteran from
both the Forest Lawn Legion and the Ogden Legion to attend the
Remembrance Day ceremonies on Parliament Hill.
I would encourage all Canadians to participate in the final
Remembrance Day of this century and to honour those who fought
and gave their lives for us.
* * *
[Translation]
QUEBEC THEATRE PRODUCTIONS
Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
on November 10, the curtain at the National Arts Centre will
rise on a Ghislain Filion production of Cervantes' “Interlude”.
First performed in May 1998 by students specializing in theatre
at Cegep Lionel Groulx, “les intermèdes” is a french adaptation
by Ghislain Filion of Cervantes' work.
News of its enthusiastic reception in Quebec so impressed the
NAC French theatre that it has included it in its 1999-2000
“Découvertes” series.
The Bloc Quebecois parliamentary group is proud to salute the
new generation of Quebec theatre companies, whose talent,
originality, perseverance and dynamism is brilliantly
illustrated by the “Capharnaüm” company.
In these days where virtually everything is focussed on
sacrosanct economic values, for a young person to choose to earn
a living from cultural pursuits is a bold decision. Opting for
difference, for beauty, for universal values is, as Jacques Brel
put it “to reach the unreachable star”.
To all these young people, we say thank you and bravo.
* * *
1105
[English]
SOHEIL MOSUN LIMITED
Mr. Roy Cullen (Etobicoke North, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, many
companies strive to be world class players in their industry,
many companies strive to be excellent.
Let me today acknowledge a company for which these are not just
distant goals, a company for which these ideals are part of
everyday reality. Let me today introduce Soheil Mosun Limited, a
custom architectural fabrication firm that I am proud to say is
located in my riding of Etobicoke North.
Recently its excellence was again recognized when it was granted
a contract worth $7 million to participate in the refurbishment
of the Renaissance Centre in Detroit. This project to upgrade
GM's headquarters is touted as the world's largest renovation
project. I am glad to see that a Canadian company and Canadian
employees will be participating.
Many thanks also to Canada's crown corporations, the Canadian
Commercial Corporation and the Business Development Corporation,
for their assistance in bringing this transaction to fruition.
I welcome Soheil, Darius and Cyrus Mosun. Congratulations to
Soheil Mosun Limited.
* * *
EMPLOYMENT
Mr. Tony Ianno (Trinity—Spadina, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, six
years ago today the Canadian people gave our Liberal Party a
mandate to concentrate on economic growth and job creation. We
embarked on a strategic plan to reduce the staggering 11.4%
unemployment rate. Taking a balanced approach we worked with
various sectors of our economy, such as those involved in trade,
research and development, tourism, youth employment and, of
course, the small business sector.
As the member for Trinity—Spadina, it gives me great pleasure
to stand today and say that the unemployment rate in six years
has moved from 11.4% to 7.2%. In 1993, 13 million Canadians were
working. Today 1.8 million more Canadians have joined the
workforce, a 14% increase, bringing the total to 14.8 million
Canadians.
With our policies we are helping more Canadians achieve a higher
standard of living with the dignity of work.
* * *
EMPLOYMENT
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
fall of unemployment to 7.5% is good news as far as it goes, but
our rate of unemployment remains staggeringly high when compared
to earlier decades.
In the 1950s 4% unemployment marked the depths of the recession.
Today 7.5% is also staggeringly high when compared to other
countries, such as Austria, the Netherlands, the United States
and Norway. All of these countries have reduced their
unemployment to less than 5%.
Let us not kid ourselves. Everyone here knows the 7.5% figure
is not accurate. It does not count those who find themselves on
the welfare rolls. Incredibly, it does not even count aboriginal
people on reserves where unemployment could be 95%.
Whether the real figure is 7% or 17%, the question remains, why
do we continue to tolerate chronic long term unemployment? What
ever happened to the goal of full employment for this country?
Are there still people out there who are perverse enough to think
that if unemployment drops too low it will spike the rate of
inflation?
* * *
THE ECONOMY
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
when the Liberal government took office in 1993 Canada was
saddled with a $42 billion deficit. Four years later that
deficit was gone. Achieving it was not without significant
sacrifice by all Canadians.
However, that sacrifice led to back to back surpluses for the
first time in the last 50 years of $3.5 billion in 1997 and $2.9
billion in 1998.
Continued responsible government and prudent fiscal management
have also created another 600,000 jobs since 1998 and our
unemployment rate, as announced today, has fallen to 7.2%, its
lowest level in nine years. That is good news.
Based on the economic statement of November 2 delivered by the
finance minister, our strong performance is also forecast to
continue for the next five years. Canadians can now expect more
tax cuts, greater support for children and families and more help
for education, knowledge and skills.
This is all good news for Canadians. As we enter the new
millennium Canada is the place to be.
* * *
[Translation]
APEC INQUIRY
Mr. Paul Mercier (Terrebonne—Blainville, BQ): Mr. Speaker, a few
hundred years ago, there lived in Provence a greedy judge who
decided one fine morning to lunch at an inn recommended to him.
What should he see on arriving, there waiting for him, smiling,
wearing his hat and carrying the spit? A litigant. The
innkeeper was none other than one of the parties to a proceeding
that he would hear. So, with a heavy heart and an empty
stomach, the judge turned on his heel and got himself a sandwich
somewhere.
The judiciary, which does not associate with just anyone, will
soon have to appear before it.
1110
This is clearly not the opinion of the prosecutor at the
commission of inquiry into the APEC summit, who is not afraid to
be seen at a funding dinner along with the Prime Minister, whom
he might call to testify at the inquiry. It appears that this
is not the opinion either of the said Prime Minister, who saw
nothing wrong with having the prosecutor contribute to his
election fund the $400 cost of the dinner.
I recommend the Prime Minister and the prosecutor read this tale
by Paul Arène. It will provide both with a practical lesson in
professional ethics.
* * *
[English]
WAR VETERANS
Mr. John Cannis (Scarborough Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
it is with humility and great pride that I stand today to pay
tribute to all the men and women who have served in our armed
forces in various capacities with distinction. It was their
valour, their commitment, their dedication and, yes, their
sacrifice which permit us today to not only live in a free
society but also to live in the best country in the world.
As this century comes to a close, it is fitting that with the
help of the Royal Canadian Legion and the support of the federal
government we are starting a new tradition. Beginning this year
the legion will lead the nation in setting aside two minutes of
silence in every town and city across our country. Given the
magnitude of the sacrifices of our veterans, many of whom did not
return home, it is only fitting that we pledge to continue in the
new millennium not only to honour and remember them but to
continue to support them.
I want to say to all Canadians, especially our youth as we move
into the 21st century, we must never forget.
* * *
DOWN'S SYNDROME
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Mr.
Speaker, this week is national Down's syndrome awareness week.
The exact causes of the chromosomal rearrangement and primary
prevention of Down's syndrome are still unknown.
Down's syndrome is the most common chromosomal abnormality,
affecting one in every 700 live births. Individuals with Down's
syndrome experience delayed development, both physically and
intellectually. Down's syndrome is one of the leading clinical
causes of mental disability in the world. It is not related to
race, nationality, religion or socioeconomic status.
Research is the key to conquering this devastating disability.
Let us all pray that our researchers are successful in their
efforts and that all Canadians continue to generously support
their efforts.
* * *
[Translation]
WOMEN'S HISTORY MONTH
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as
October was women's history month, it gave us an opportunity to
pay special tribute to francophone women in Canada. I would like
to add my voice to those who have already spoken on this
subject.
In 1912, the Ontario provincial government adopted Regulation 17
prohibiting the teaching of French in the province's schools. In
spite of that, two sisters, Béatrice and Diane Desloges, who
were teachers at Guigues school, in Ottawa's lower town, kept
teaching in French.
They were punished by first being deprived of their salary and
then the provincial government forced them to leave Guigues
school.
In January 1916, accompanied by mothers and grandmothers, and
armed with fearsome pin hats, they challenged policemen and
stormed Guigues school.
The Desloges sisters never gave up the fight for Ontario's
francophones—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst.
* * *
SEASONAL INDUSTRIES
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the concerns
of seasonal industry workers will finally be voiced here in the
House of Commons.
Making Motion M-222 a votable item means that we can have a
constructive debate, during which everyone will be able to put
forward short, middle and long term solutions to address the
issue of seasonal workers and employment insurance.
The debate will also allow us to debunk several myths regarding
seasonal work. The issue of seasonal workers affects every
single region of the country and particularly rural areas.
I hope members from all parties will join me and will take part
in the debate and in the development of solutions.
Communities all over the country that depend on seasonal
industries are turning to us, so that we can all work together
to find feasible solutions. Let us not disappoint them.
* * *
[English]
REMEMBRANCE DAY
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Tobique—Mactaquac, PC): Mr. Speaker,
last year a member of this House said publicly that we should do
away with Remembrance Day. When I heard that I decided to send a
letter to the natural resources minister of New Brunswick asking
him to ban hunting on November 11 to remember the supreme
sacrifices made by our veterans so that we can enjoy the freedom
which today we sometimes take for granted.
1115
It really does not matter whether they ban hunting for a whole
day or for a half day until noon, our hunters can take to the
woods but at the 11th hour on that day the intent is to lay down
the weapons and pause for two minutes to remember those Canadians
who did so much for us. Without them, we might not have the
hunting season at all and we might not have a country called
Canada.
From the goodness of my heart I hope that all Canadians, young
and old, will not forget to take two minutes just to remember. We
will not forget.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
GOVERNMENT GRANTS
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, a near bankrupt company in the Prime Minister's riding
was up for sale. He urged the human resources department to
sweeten the deal with a $1 million subsidy.
Quelle surprise, Placeteco's buyer turned out to be a friend of
the Prime Minister, the friend who bought land from his golf
course, gave his campaign $10,000 and got a CIDA contract for $6
million. When the Prime Minister was pressuring HRD to sweeten
the Placeteco deal, did he know that the interested buyer was his
friend, Claude Gauthier?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let me again confirm to the House that
the appropriate approval process was undertaken on this project.
The department of human resources analysed the opportunity, the
information was provided to the stakeholders, the stakeholders
agreed that the investment should be made, and no moneys flowed
until that appropriate approval process was completed.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I notice that the question was not answered. The
government's idea of appropriate certainly would not be that of
taxpayers.
Human resources documents confirm the Prime Minister's direct
intervention to sweeten the Placeteco deal. There is a clear
history of business and political links between the Prime
Minister and Placeteco's buyer. An illegal trust fund was used
to deliver the cash to the Prime Minister's friend.
Now we find out that still another friend and patronage
appointee of the Prime Minister, Gilles Champagne, administered
the trust fund for a handsome fee. Do the Prime Minister and the
government see nothing wrong with such blatant pork-barrelling?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let me say again that the appropriate
approval process was undertaken. Indeed an administrative error
was made by the department in administering the funds.
In May of this year that was recognized. In June a directive
was issued to deal with it and the trust funds have been closed.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, it is amazing how the stars line up for the Prime
Minister's friends: illegal trust funds administered by old
buddies and a $1 million grant to boost the value of a company
which ends up being bought by another buddy, a business
associate.
This is public money we are talking about. Does the minister
care enough to get to the bottom of this and clean up this mess
by an independent inquiry?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, indeed we have responded to the issue.
The appropriate approval process was undertaken. The
administrative error has been identified and has been dealt with.
The trust funds have been closed.
What we are very proud of is today's labour numbers which
indicate that Canada's unemployment rate is at 7.2%, the lowest
in a decade. That is because of the approaches of the country to
the issue of employment in Canada.
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
there is a very disturbing pattern here. Illegal trust funds
administered by the friend of the Prime Minister, millions of
dollars of public money funnelled to people with close business
ties to the Prime Minister, government contracts given to a man
who bought the Prime Minister's land, a trust fund administered
by the friend of the Prime Minister, and an RCMP investigation
into an unregistered lobbyist who is a friend of the Prime
Minister. All roads lead to the Prime Minister's riding.
Why will not the human resources minister do the right thing and
launch an independent inquiry to look into the mess that is
happening in the Prime Minister's office?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have done the right thing. The
appropriate approval process was undertaken. We identified that
there was an administrative error and that has been dealt with.
Most appropriate, we are happy with the reduced unemployment
rate in Canada of 7.2%, the lowest in a decade.
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Is that not nice
news, Mr. Speaker? An illegality becomes an administrative
error.
The Prime Minister says he is just the little guy from
Shawinigan and he is just doing his job as a regular MP, but
these sorts of things do not happen in my riding. They do not
happen in the Deputy Prime Minister's riding. They happen in one
place and one place only, the Prime Minister's riding.
It is not about jobs because 53 jobs disappeared after this deal
went through. It is not about helping out businesses; it is
about helping out friends.
1120
The minister should be more worried now about her implication in
this deal as well. Why has she been called in to justify what is
going on in the Prime Minister's office? If she will not do it
for taxpayers, why does she not call an inquiry—
The Speaker: The hon. Minister for Human Resources
Development.
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am here to confirm, not justify, that
the appropriate approval process was undertaken. I am here to
confirm that, yes, there was administrative error and it has been
dealt with.
I am here to confirm that the trust funds have been closed. I
am also here to confirm that there are people working in this
riding who would not be working without the support of this
government.
* * *
[Translation]
AUDIOVISUAL PRODUCTIONS
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, a number
of people working in the audiovisual sector have revealed that,
in addition to the use of other people's names, the practice of
overbilling is very widespread. This information is coming out
in dribs and drabs because those who know about these deplorable
practices are afraid to speak out.
What does the government intend to do to give witnesses the
protection they are asking for?
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the members opposite know
very well that the Minister of Canadian Heritage has asked the
RCMP to look into this matter.
For the umpteenth time, if they have any information, we urge
them to pass it on directly to the RCMP.
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Unfortunately, Mr.
Speaker, that tape is getting a bit worn.
Honest craftspeople have said that only an independent
investigation will shed light on the dubious practices they have
witnessed in their industry. They are the ones with the facts.
They are the ones who want to testify.
Can the Deputy Prime Minister tell us whether the government
intends to respond to these people's concerns and launch an
independent investigation into the audiovisual industry
throughout the country, yes or no? That's it, that's all.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the investigation being
done by the RCMP is an independent investigation. I hope that
the member opposite will agree.
The members opposite, or anyone with information can feel
perfectly comfortable passing it along to the RCMP, which will
see that this investigation is properly handled.
* * *
AGEISM
Mr. Maurice Dumas (Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday, a federal court judge ruled that the Old Age Security
Act discriminates against women.
However, the judge refused to eliminate this discrimination,
saying that this was up to the lawmakers.
My question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.
What is she waiting for to assume her responsibilities and
eliminate this discrimination?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the judge in this case
concluded that the exclusion of separated spouses from the
spousal allowance benefit is a reasonable limit on the
constitutional equality rights of the charter. He has left
further action to parliament.
I am looking forward to reviewing in detail the judgment and we
will move from there.
[Translation]
Mr. Maurice Dumas (Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
the government routinely refuses to assume its responsibilities,
preferring to hide behind the courts. This time, the judge
himself has thrown the ball back into parliament's court.
How will the minister defend these women, who are victims of
discrimination?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, again, as I said, I will review the
judgment that has come out in this case and we will take steps
from there.
* * *
Y2K
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Minister of National Defence.
I am sure he will know that one of the more overriding concerns
of people about the Y2K problem is not the fact that their water
or hydro might be shut off, but whether or not we risk the
possibility of an accidental nuclear war thanks to a
malfunctioning of nuclear systems or computer systems that
regulate nuclear weapons systems.
Could the minister tell the House whether he is aware of any
attempt through NATO, or any other organization, to achieve a
de-alerting of nuclear weapons for the new year that would
prevent this problem?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Canada does not have that kind of
weaponry so we are not directly involved, but, yes, there have
been numerous discussions at NATO over the last year to two years
with respect to this matter. I know that extra precautions have
been taken in this regard for all systems relevant to the
military.
1125
The United States has particularly paid attention to the nuclear
systems possessed by the Russians. I know that extra precautions
have been taken in that regard. I think we can be fully
confident of these efforts. They are not de-alerting, per se,
but they are ensuring that—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona.
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I wonder whether the Canadian government would be
prepared to take the position that de-alerting would be a good
thing to do. In fact some groups have called for the removal of
nuclear warheads as a further precautionary measure.
Could the minister tell us what precautionary measures have been
taken and why de-alerting is unacceptable to the Canadian
government?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member is raising
another issue of nuclear disarmament. Of course we all want to
work ultimately toward nuclear disarmament. I think that is what
a lot of people are continuing to be concerned about.
In terms of Y2K I believe from the information that is available
to me that certainly the Canadian government has wanted to
ensure, through its membership in NATO where these discussions
have come up, that all these systems are safe. I believe they
are.
* * *
AIRLINE INDUSTRY
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, it is now clear that since February Kevin Benson has
been a registered paid lobbyist for Onex and that he met with the
Prime Minister's chief of staff, Jean Pelletier. He also met
with the Minister of Transport to discuss the airline takeover.
Could the Minister of Industry now confirm that Kevin Benson,
the Onex lobbyist, also met with his own deputy minister, Kevin
Lynch, to discuss the suspension of the Competition Act?
Mr. John Cannis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Industry, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have been informed that the
deputy minister of industry has never met with representatives of
Onex or Canadian, neither before nor after the government
decision of August 13, to suspend section 47 of the Canada
Transportation Act.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, it is curious because Kevin Benson appears to be the
link between Onex and the federal government, and the Prime
Minister conveniently cannot remember whether his own chief of
staff met with Mr. Benson. Surely the Minister of Industry can
tell us whether he did or members of his staff did.
The trail of direct contact between Onex and the Prime Minister
goes through Kevin Benson. Why is the government showing such
blatant favouritism toward one of the proponents of the Onex
merger?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member's assertion is totally wrong. The
government is not showing favouritism to Onex or any of the
proponents. We are only ready to act and are acting in the
interest of all Canadians.
* * *
TAXATION
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, by the year
2000 Canada will have the second highest corporate income tax
rate in the world. Only Japan's will be higher. Besides high
corporate taxes, Canadian businesses face increasing
contributions to CPP and the great rip off of excessive EI
contributions.
Why does the finance minister not take for once the advice from
his own advisers, do what is wise and prudent, and reduce
corporate tax rates to keep industry, companies, professionals
and workers in Canada?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the government has been reducing taxes and is focused on
the needs of individual Canadians.
If the Reform Party wants to serve the interests of big business
it can do that, but we will act for all Canadians, including
small and medium size business and business generally.
Our focus is on individual Canadians. I am sorry the Reform
Party has forgotten that priority and does not care about it any
more.
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the finance minister's own advisers are telling him to cut taxes
for businesses. Canadians are calling out for tax relief as
well. Yet the government continues to refuse to listen.
What is it that the government does not understand about
reducing taxes for businesses to help the economy? Why does it
not just go ahead and do that?
Mr. Roy Cullen (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, just last week the finance
minister prepared the economic and fiscal update projecting
surpluses over the next five years. In terms of corporate taxes
he has asked the public to comment on what we should be doing
with business taxes.
In terms of taxes on small businesses, Canada has the lowest
taxes on small businesses in the G-7.
* * *
[Translation]
THE DISABLED
Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Mr. Speaker, a
few months ago, half of the Liberal cabinet paraded before the
subcommittee on the status of the disabled to convince us of its
good will.
1130
Yet in Quebec close to 300 disabled people will be losing their
jobs this week because of a $3 million shortfall in the
opportunities fund for the disabled.
In light of the huge government surplus, will the minister
commit to immediately taking the necessary steps to enable the
disabled to continue their integration into the work force?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let me take this opportunity to recognize
and thank the members of the subcommittee of the standing
committee for the work that they have done in bringing all
government departments together to appreciate the role that they
can play in helping to reflect the needs of Canadians with
disabilities in our policies and in our services.
I am looking forward to responding to the recommendations of the
particular subcommittee in the near future. I hope the hon.
member will continue to work with us as we focus on Canadians
with disabilities ensuring that we have policies of inclusion and
not of exclusion.
[Translation]
Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
that is exactly what we are in the process of doing. There is
an urgent problem in Quebec at the present time.
CAMO has applied for funding for the opportunity fund on several
occasions, but the answer that was due in mid-October has still
not been given.
Is the minister aware that, if the government does not come up
with the required funding in the very near future, it will be
responsible for the demise of a number of organizations devoted
to integrating the disabled into the work force because of its
carelessness?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I will be glad to look at any particular
issues the hon. member wants to bring forward with particular
projects. I do want to recognize the support that the Bloc is
giving for the opportunities fund. It is a fund that has been
established to support Canadians with disabilities. It is nice
to hear that the Bloc feels that this is a wise investment for
all Canadians including those in Quebec.
* * *
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
farm families in my riding of Dauphin—Swan River continue to
call me to say they are going broke. Banks are foreclosing on
farms daily in western Canada.
The new money unveiled is nothing more than an attempt to save
face. Fifty-nine per cent of Manitoba farmers who applied for
AIDA were rejected. Close to 3,000 claims remain unprocessed.
How can the minister of agriculture assure farmers that the new
money will get off the cabinet table and on to the farm kitchen
table?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I can assure the member that all of the
money will go through the process and the farmers will get it. I
also remind the hon. member that the 1998 and 1999 AIDA program
with the contributions of the federal and provincial governments
will bring $580 million to Saskatchewan farmers in addition to
the safety net dollars that are there and some $220 million to
Manitoba farmers.
* * *
ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE
Mr. Chuck Cadman (Surrey North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
government is responsible for the RCMP funding crisis. The
government ordered the long overdue RCMP pay raise to be taken
from an existing limited budget and the RCMP had to cut service
in a number of essential areas to compensate. We have now
learned that a lack of funding is preventing the annual testing
of members in the proper use of their firearms.
The largest RCMP detachment in Canada is in my riding and my
constituents are fed up with this.
My question is for the solicitor general. How much longer is
the government prepared to jeopardize the safety of police
officers and Canadians?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Solicitor General of Canada,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I do not believe anyone in the House
would question the competence of the RCMP. For my hon.
colleague's information, 94% of the officers who were involved in
the test passed.
* * *
[Translation]
BUDGET SURPLUS
Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): Mr. Speaker, between
now and 2003, the federal government will be slashing over
$30 billion in transfers to the provinces to fund higher
education, health care and income security.
Now that he has surpluses coming out his ears, will the Minister
of Finance make a commitment to reinstate the social transfers
so the provinces may provide their residents with proper
services?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is
interesting to listen to the Bloc Quebecois critic today, in the
light of what Mr. Bouchard said.
This summer, at the first ministers meeting, Mr. Bouchard joined
with the other premiers in supporting our 50:50 formula. If
Mr. Bouchard supports this formula under which we agreed to cut
taxes, reduce the debt and invest in the interests of all
Canadians, why does the Bloc Quebecois persist in asking such
questions?
1135
Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): Mr. Speaker, why is
the Bloc Quebecois persisting? Because this government does
nothing, and there are problems in the schools, in the hospitals
and in the most disadvantaged families.
Will this government understand that this would take less than a
fifth of the huge surpluses expected over the next five years to
turn the situation around in the hospitals, in education and
with those who are most disadvantaged in society? Do they
understand that, or are they going to continue to play deaf?
Mr. Roy Cullen (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Finance,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is incredible that the Bloc Quebecois is
talking about news like that, when new jobs were created in
Quebec in the month of October.
[English]
There were 33,000 new jobs in October in the province of Quebec.
If we want to talk about transfers, let us talk about the $1.8
billion additionally for Quebec via the CHST, $2.7 billion in the
additional CHST transfers, $750 million a year in tax point
increases and $2.8 billion in additional equalization payments.
* * *
PORT OF VANCOUVER
Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the lumber industry in British Columbia
has been told by its Asian customers that if shipments are
delayed out of the port of Vancouver for more than one week, they
will find suppliers elsewhere.
By the time the House sits again, the lumber industry's Asian
markets may have disappeared. All the labour minister is
prepared to do is to sit on the sidelines and watch to see what
happens.
Why is the minister gambling with the future of Canada's lumber
industry?
Mrs. Judi Longfield (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Labour, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the government takes this issue
very seriously.
I would tell the member opposite that the employer has invited
the employees back to the table. This is a very sensitive
situation. To deal in speculation at this point is not
productive.
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
export of petrochemicals, sulphur, potash, coal and the entire
forest industry in B.C. depend on access to our ports.
Clearly the port closure will have a devastating impact on
western and national economies. Foreign buyers will be forced to
look elsewhere for suppliers. The Canadian consumer will pay the
price for additional shipping charges from American ports.
Will the Minister of Labour act to develop a contingency plan,
or will Canadian exporters and consumers be left to pay the
price?
Mrs. Judi Longfield (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Labour, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, there is still time for a
negotiated settlement.
I would remind the members opposite that 95% of labour disputes
in the last year were settled without work stoppage and without
back to work legislation.
This is a sensitive issue. Give the parties time to work it
out.
* * *
[Translation]
FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker, while
Canada, through the Minister for International Trade, wants to
champion the participation of civil society in the negotiations
on the free trade area of the Americas, we noticed that, at the
end of the Toronto meeting, NGOs had only had 90 minutes to
express their views, while the business sector had had two days.
Why did Canada, which presided the meeting, not deem appropriate
to give more time to NGOs and to civil society?
[English]
Mr. Bob Speller (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for
International Trade, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member
should know that Canada was the first country in these meetings
to push hard for civil society to be involved. In fact, the
Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade,
which held hearings across the country over the past couple of
years, met with civil society and made strong representations to
the Government of Canada, which listened.
* * *
IMMIGRATION
Ms. Sophia Leung (Vancouver Kingsway, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration.
Last year less than 14,000 business immigrants came to Canada,
yet the minister's projection for this year is even higher. How
does the minister intend to attract more skilled business
immigrants to Canada?
Ms. Elinor Caplan (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased and proud to answer the
question.
In the response to the Speech from the Throne, the Prime
Minister said that Canada should be the destination, the place to
be, in the 21st century.
We are committed to achieving the levels announced, to
encouraging the best and brightest from around the world, to
streamlining our processing, to using resources and information
management. We want to look at innovative programming like
temporary workers and foreign student visa programs to encourage
them to come to Canada and ultimately decide to emigrate here and
help us build a better and more prosperous life for all
Canadians.
* * *
1140
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the minister of Indian affairs says that new treaties
are a better option than court fights when he talks about the
Nisga'a.
The neighbouring Gitanyow and Gitksan bands are now claiming
that 80% of the 1,930 square kilometres of B.C. given to the
Nisga'a under the treaty is their traditional land. They have
started legal action against both the government and the Nisga'a.
How can the government claim success with the Nisga'a treaty
when all that it has started is a new round of legal battles?
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the government stands by the
Nisga'a agreement. We have tabled it in the House. The hon.
member knows there will be hearings in British Columbia in only a
few days and people can make representations on the agreement.
The British Columbia legislature has voted on it. We are
committed to passing the legislation.
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the supreme court ruling regarding Donald Marshall and native
fishing rights has led to chaos on the east coast and uncertainty
across the nation.
That is because the judicial ruling is unclear regarding the
geographical limitations of the treaty, and rich resources will
be affected. The Liberals refuse to ask the courts for clarity.
The government chooses not to ask for clarification. It prefers
to introduce uncertainty. One has to ask why?
Is it the government's agenda to give natives unlimited access
to all natural resources in the country? Is that the agenda?
[Translation]
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the treaty was properly negotiated and all its clauses
were clarified. There was extensive consultation. It is
pointless to raise fears that are totally unfounded.
* * *
[English]
HIGHWAYS
Ms. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
Liberal red book promised to invest in highways but western
Canada has hardly seen a cent of federal money. Some 38% of the
national highway system is substandard, mostly in the west.
Bringing it up to standard would save 247 lives and prevent
16,000 injuries each year.
Every dollar spent fixing the national highway system would save
$2 in health care costs. Surely the Liberal government has a
moral obligation to invest in highways so Canadians can drive
home safely. Will it commit now to a serious investment in the
national highway system?
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have two points. First, I
point out to the hon. member that the deputy minister of the
transportation department has been meeting with counterparts from
all the provinces and is working on a national highway policy.
The second and most important point is that in the throne speech
we indicated our commitment to the enhancement of the
infrastructure in the rural and urban areas of the country.
Ms. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
Canadians want more than words from the Liberal government. Even
when the government says it will do something, it never follows
through. It has not come through with enough emergency aid for
farmers. It has not come through for homeless Canadians or
children in poverty. It has not come through on cutting the GST.
The Liberal government has neglected the national highway system
for so long it will now cost $13 billion to bring it up to
standard. Will the Minister of Transport commit today to invest
at least that much? Surely the lives of Canadians are worth it.
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I want to point out to the
hon. member that negotiations are progressing. Progress is being
made. The future looks very, very bright as far as the
infrastructure of our communities is concerned.
* * *
HOUSING
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Tobique—Mactaquac, PC): Mr. Speaker,
the general manager for CMHC in British Columbia says the
corporation knew in 1992 that there was a problem with leaky
condos but the corporation still continued to insure leaky condo
mortgages which thereby exposed taxpayers to risk. It did not
inform consumers who were seeking CMHC backed mortgages.
CMHC has admitted guilt. Is the minister ready to compensate
leaky condo owners for this government wrong?
Ms. Carolyn Parrish (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
provincial building code sets the standards for proper
construction practices that are enforced within provincial
jurisdiction. I would like to see which provinces would like all
the building codes set by the federal government in Canada. I do
not think any province would go along with that.
CMHC provides mortgage insurance to its lenders, not
construction advice, nor inspection services.
1145
We have offered $75 million in loans which Mr. Barrett has not
taken up. We have offered a series of RRSP loans, which
information has been disseminated very carefully. We have also
offered RRAP funds for eligible homeowners in those areas. We
have done all that we can do.
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Tobique—Mactaquac, PC): Mr.
Speaker, the $75 million is at the same rate as a bank loan and
they cannot afford that. CMHC knew years ago that consumers in
British Columbia were purchasing condominiums that would be
worthless in five years but it continued to take money from young
families buying their first homes and from seniors who are now
faced with retirement, in poverty and have tens of thousands of
dollars in repair bills.
When will the government compensate those victims?
Ms. Carolyn Parrish (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
would like to put the blame where the blame exists. The B.C.
government was warned by its own bureaucrats in 1987.
Jim Curry, then the director of the B.C. Building Standards
Branch, wrote to different provincial ministers saying “My
concerns stem from what appears to be a blind pursuit of energy
conservation to the complete exclusion of all else, jeopardizing
both the health of occupants and the structural integrity”. Mr.
Curry wrote this in a 1991 letter to then housing minister, Robin
Blencoe.
Why is it that when the provinces get into trouble they go to
the government with the deepest pockets and the best management
of their budget?
* * *
THE ENVIRONMENT
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
Minister of Natural Resources has said that with the advance in
scientific research and with the introduction of new technologies
that Canadians can take advantage of those advances as we face
the issue of climate change.
What is the minister doing in practical terms to help Canadians
take advantage of these technologies while we face the climate
change situation?
Mr. Brent St. Denis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Natural Resources, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, science-based
innovation is a big part of the climate change solution.
Canadians are world leaders in making things possible. This is
why the federal government has created the technology early
action measures or TEAM component of the climate change action
fund.
Fifty-six million dollars of seed funding has already leveraged
$433 million of investment, an incredible ratio of 9:1. Companies
like Iogen Corporation, Stuart Energy Systems Inc., Powerbase
Inc, Hydro-Québec, Arenda Aerospace, B.C. Gas International and
many others have taken up the challenge.
There are many good news stories—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Lakeland.
* * *
IMMIGRATION
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the minister of immigration.
“Canada's revolving door refugee system is a charade, puts an
undue strain on Canadian taxpayers and constitutes a scandalous
abuse of our border”. These are not my words but the words of
federal court judge Donna McGillis. This judge is only telling
the minister exactly what she has been told before by many
Canadians. Why will she not listen?
Ms. Elinor Caplan (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, while not perfect, the refugee
determination system in Canada is not charade. I think most
Canadians are proud of the fact that we have due process in
Canada and that we protect individual rights.
The issue of multiple refugee claims is one that I hope will be
discussed and addressed during the legislative review process
that parliament is undertaking right now. If the member opposite
has any positive ideas I would be happy to hear them.
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, last week, the
Minister of Finance announced that employment insurance premiums
would be lowered by 15 cents.
I did not see a single Canadian protesting because of employment
insurance premiums, but I did see some protesting against
Liberal cuts.
My question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.
Will changes be made to the employment insurance program, yes or
no?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, employment insurance benefits are a very
important part of our infrastructure. They are there for
Canadians who had been working and who find themselves
temporarily without work. We on this side of the House are very
anxious to work with Canadians to ensure that they have jobs,
that they have employment.
Today we were very pleased to see that Canada's unemployment
numbers are continuing to come down. They are the lowest they
have been in a decade at 7.2%. I would also note that for adult
women unemployment is the lowest it has been since 1975 at 5.8%.
* * *
1150
FISHERIES
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Mr.
Speaker, at a meeting this week with the legal advisor of the
Union of Nova Scotia Indians, MPs were told the aboriginal people
of Atlantic Canada will lay claim to a 50% share of the Atlantic
fishery.
Is the minister aware of this position? If he is, does he
support the position?
[Translation]
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I can assure you that the Government of Canada is
taking a very close look at these issues, and there is no reason
for such fearmongering.
* * *
1906 CENSUS
Mr. René Laurin (Joliette, BQ): Mr. Speaker, an archaic law is
still preventing the people of Quebec and of Canada from having
access to the results of the 1906 census and is depriving the
university community of historic data.
Will the minister promise to modify this act, already amended in
1918, and lift the restriction on the 1906 census so that
historians can gain a better understanding of this period in our
history?
[English]
Mr. John Cannis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Industry, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is a well known fact that
Statistics Canada, which is an arm's length agency, has a well
earned reputation.
In response to the question, we are considering setting up an
expert panel of eminent Canadians who would review the
implications of releasing historical records right now.
* * *
[Translation]
ELECTIONS IN HAITI
Mr. John Godfrey (Don Valley West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Haiti
will be holding democratic elections in March of next year.
What will the federal government be doing to support this
process?
Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for
International Cooperation, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Canada, along
with its friends in Haiti, is actively supporting the election
process now under way. It is anxious to see a parliament
restored to Haiti.
This week, the minister was in Haiti, where she announced
$1.5 million in support for the legislative, municipal and
territorial elections to be held in that country on March 19 and
April 30, 2000.
The minister has also conveyed Canada's encouragement to
President René Préval and Prime Minister Jacques-Édouard Alexis
during her visit.
* * *
[English]
VETERANS AFFAIRS
Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, a
$1 billion betrayal of war veterans' trust. In 1990, the
government legislated to deny interest on veterans' trust
accounts which should have been paid from World War II to 1990.
This is gross mismanagement and possibly negligence.
What is the minister going to do to investigate this and correct
this wrong?
Hon. George S. Baker (Minister of Veterans Affairs and
Secretary of State (Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency),
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the bill in question was passed in 1990.
There was a clause in the bill that prohibited payments from
being made retroactively prior to 1990.
I will just remind the hon. member that in 1990 the party that
the hon. member's party wishes to join under the United
Alternative was the party in power.
* * *
[Translation]
POLLUTION OF DRINKING WATER
Mr. Ghislain Fournier (Manicouagan, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in the
summer of 1998, the Minister of Transport acknowledged
responsibility for the contamination of the water table
supplying the Plages sector, in Sept-Îles. He indicated on
several occasions that the situation would be corrected.
Eighteen months have passed and we have yet to hear anything
more from him.
My question is for the Minister of Transport. When does the
minister plan to remedy the situation?
1155
[English]
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we realize the seriousness of
the situation there. It was the Department of Transport that
identified it and started the whole process. Work has been done.
There have been investigations, studies and commitments to clear
up that situation.
We will continue with this progress until the entire problem is
solved.
* * *
IMMIGRATION
Ms. Louise Hardy (Yukon, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my question
is for the Minister of Immigration.
It is really important to clarify why the government is actually
condoning the smuggling of children into Canada.
During the gulf war, Masomé Aliabadi was separated from her
children. It took her two years to find out where her children
were. They had been smuggled into Canada and in fact were here
on a minister's permit.
It has now been four years that Masomé has been in this country
trying to be reunited with her family. She has refugee status in
Denmark and her husband is there. She has been obstructed at
every turn and she now has leukemia. All she wants is to be with
her family and the minister will not allow this.
Since Masomé cannot be returned with her children to Denmark,
will the minister at least let the father come to Canada to help
her?
Ms. Elinor Caplan (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as the member knows, I cannot discuss
individual cases as a result of privacy laws. If she would like
to give me a written consent that will allow me to answer those
questions in the House of Commons then I would be happy to
discuss it here.
I would suggest to the her that there are often many details
which are unknown to the member. When cases are raised, the
whole story is often not told.
I would encourage her to work with the department so that we can
explain those issues to her, but I cannot comment on them
publicly.
* * *
FISHERIES
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Mr.
Speaker, the Liberal front benches look like the old Abbott and
Costello routine “Who's on First?”.
When I asked the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans a question he
sat on his hands, kept his mouth shut and did not stand up to
answer the question.
Does he support the aboriginal claim to a 50% share of the
Atlantic fishery? I will remind him that he is meeting at 12.30
with the leadership of the Atlantic fishery. Who is going to
represent him there, the Minister of Health or somebody else?
Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal (Minister of Fisheries and
Oceans, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is pretty obvious that if the
hon. member would put his questions clearly we would know who he
was talking about. His question was so murky that nobody
understood what he was talking about.
If he is talking about the aboriginal fishery, the hon. member
clearly knows that we have set up a federal representative. They
are talking to him. The only solution we have heard from members
of the Conservative Party is to go back and use the
notwithstanding clause. That is the most ridiculous thing I have
heard. They should go back and learn that we cannot do that.
* * *
THE SENATE
Mr. Rob Anders (Calgary West, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
Alberta government is preparing a referendum to mandate Senate
elections.
Last year the supreme court ruled that the federal government
must negotiate with a province that votes in favour of a clear
constitutional question. We should keep in mind that the Prime
Minister needs no constitutional amendment to appoint an elected
senator.
When Alberta holds its referendum, will the Prime Minister
respect Albertans and the supreme court by appointing our elected
senator?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, first, the hon. member has not correctly stated what the
supreme court held.
Second, I do not know why Albertans would want the Prime
Minister to appoint somebody for life. The big flaw in the
Reform position is that if the Prime Minister appointed somebody,
that person would be there until age 75. That is not democratic.
We would have had a truly reformed elected Senate if members of
the Reform Party had not caused the defeat of the Charlottetown
agreement. If we do not have an elected Senate today, it is
clearly on their shoulders. They ought to admit it and stop
raising these weird questions.
* * *
[Translation]
PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
today the employees of CAMO are getting their termination
notices. The minister's compassion is not sufficient.
Can the Minister of Human Resources Development make an
immediate commitment to put the necessary funding into the
opportunities fund in order to keep these people employed until
the next budget?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am aware of this concern and the
department is working on it.
* * *
1200
PRESENCE IN GALLERY
The Speaker: I draw to the attention of hon. members
the presence in the gallery of the hon. Clint Dunford, Minister
of Human Resources and Employment for the province of Alberta.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[Translation]
WAYS AND MEANS
NOTICE OF MOTION
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of National Revenue and Secretary
of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions
of Quebec), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to the provisions of
Standing Order 83(1), I have the honour to lay upon the Table a
notice of ways and means motion to amend the Excise Act and the
Income Tax Act, along with explanatory notes.
I ask that you designate an order of the day for the
consideration of the motion.
* * *
[English]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
FISHERIES AND OCEANS
Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal (Minister of Fisheries and
Oceans, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 109, I
have the honour to table, in both official languages, copies of
the government's response to the 13th report of the Standing
Committee on Fisheries and Oceans entitled “The Seal Report”,
presented to the House on June 9, 1999.
INDUSTRY
Mr. John Cannis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Industry, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 109,
I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the
government's response to the 19th report of the House of Commons
Standing Committee on Industry, entitled “Research
Funding—Strengthening the Sources of Innovation”.
* * *
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in
both official languages, the government's response to four
petitions.
* * *
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
INDUSTRY
Mr. Ian Murray (Lanark—Carleton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have the honour to present the first report of the Standing
Committee on Industry concerning its order of reference from the
House of Commons of Tuesday, November 2, 1999, in relation to
Bill C-4, an act to implement the agreement among the Government
of Canada, Governments of Member States of the European Space
Agency, the Government of Japan, the Government of the Russian
Federation, and the Government of the United States of America
concerning co-operation on the civil international space station
and to make related amendments to other acts.
The committee reports the bill with one amendment.
* * *
MANITOBA CLAIM SETTLEMENTS IMPLEMENTATION ACT
Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal (for the Minister of Indian
Affairs and Northern Development) moved for leave to introduce
Bill C-14, an act respecting an agreement with the Norway House
Cree Nation for the settlement of matters arising from the
flooding of land, and respecting the establishment of certain
reserves in the province of Manitoba.
He said: Mr. Speaker, this bill is in the same form as Bill
C-56 was in the first session of this parliament. In accordance
with a special order of the House of October 14, 1999, I request
that the bill be reinstated at the same stage that it had reached
at the time of prorogation.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
[Translation]
The Speaker: The Chair is of the opinion that this bill is in
the same form and at the same stage as Bill C-56 was, at the time
the first session of the 36th Parliament was prorogued.
[English]
Accordingly, pursuant to order made Thursday, October 14, 1999,
the bill is deemed read the second time, and referred to a
committee, considered by a committee and reported without
amendment.
(Bill deemed read the second time, referred to a committee,
reported without amendment)
* * *
1205
STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS ACT
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Ref.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-310, an act to amend the Statutory Instruments
Act (disallowance procedure for statutory instruments).
He said: Mr. Speaker, this enactment would establish a
statutory disallowance procedure that would be applicable to all
statutory instruments subject to review and scrutiny by the
Standing Joint Committee for the Scrutiny of Regulations.
In doing so, this enactment would ensure that parliament would
have the opportunity to disallow any statutory instrument made
pursuant to authority delegated by parliament or made by or under
the authority of the cabinet. This would bring us in line with
the standard practice used by the rest of the Commonwealth.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
PLAIN LANGUAGE ACT
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Ref.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-311, an act to promote the use of plain language
in federal statutes and regulations.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that many members of the House,
and perhaps all members of the House, have from time to time been
asked by constituents to provide copies of bills. Some of them
are very complicated and lengthy; for example, Bill C-2, which is
presently before the House.
The purpose of this bill would be to get those bills into plain
language that the folks who vote for us can actually understand,
and which would make it clear to the courts that we do not want
judicial activism.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
NATIONAL ARCHIVES OF CANADA ACT
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-312, an act to amend the National Archives of
Canada Act and the Statistics Act.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this enactment is to
mandate the chief statistician of Canada to transfer to the
national archivist of Canada all census information that has been
collected since the 1906 census and information that will be
collected in every future census. Such transfer is currently
prohibited. The national archivist of Canada may make such
information available to the public for research and statistical
purposes, provided that 92 years have elapsed since its
collection.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
VIA RAIL COMMERCIALIZATION ACT
Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, Ref.) moved
for leave to introduce Bill C-313, an act respecting the
commercialization of VIA Rail Canada Inc.
He said: Mr. Speaker, my bill is very simple. It concerns the
privatization of VIA Rail. VIA Rail sold a part of its company
to the private sector and then years later proceeded to try to
compete with it. It is subsidized to the rate of over $500,000 a
day, 365 days a year.
If it is going to use taxpayer money, it is time it was
privatized, met good commercial standards and either run on its
own merit or, if necessary, shut down and other companies which
are more equipped to deal with good private sector practices
could take over, as has been done by the Rocky Mountaineer in
British Columbia.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
1210
FIREARMS ACT
Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, Ref.) moved
for leave to introduce Bill C-314, an act to amend the Firearms
Act and the Criminal Code (no registration of firearms that are
not restricted or prohibited firearms).
He said: Mr. Speaker, the firearms registration legislation,
when it was passed, had two parts. One was the registration of
long guns, the other was new measures to deal with the criminal
misuse of firearms.
My bill would simply deal with the first part, the registration
of long guns. Few people see any advantage to this. It is
incredibly costly. It is causing all kinds of bureaucratic
problems. The money which the system costs could be more
effectively spent on such things as better policing, better
equipment for the police, DNA data banks and many other things.
It is a phenomenal waste of money. Let us spend taxpayers'
money wisely. We cannot prevent crime by hassling law-abiding
citizens.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
PETITIONS
ALCOHOL CONSUMPTION
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
am pleased to present a petition on behalf of a number of
Canadians, including those from my riding of Mississauga South.
The petitioners would like to draw to the attention of the House
that the consumption of alcoholic beverages may cause health
problems, and specifically that fetal alcohol syndrome and
alcohol related birth defects are 100% preventable by avoiding
alcohol consumption during pregnancy.
The petitioners therefore call upon parliament to mandate health
warning labels on the containers of alcoholic beverages to
caution expectant mothers and others of the risks associated with
alcohol consumption.
THE CONSTITUTION
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am
happy to present a petition on behalf of constituents who believe
that the reference to God should remain in the preamble of the
charter of rights and freedoms because the preamble acts as a
foundation to the charter and subsequent sections are based on
facts set forth in the preamble.
The petitioners therefore petition and pray that parliament
oppose any amendments to the charter of rights and freedoms or
any other legislation which would provide for the exclusion of
the reference to the supremacy of God in our constitution or in
legislation.
THE CONSTITUTION
Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, my constituents have been very busy. I actually have 15
petitions. However, for the sake of brevity, I have grouped them
into five groups. I will be extremely brief in introducing the
petitions in their particular grouping.
The first group is similar to the petition just presented. My
constituents ask that parliament not amend either the charter of
rights and freedoms or the national anthem to remove the name of
God.
MARRIAGE
Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, many of my constituents have put together a petition
which calls on parliament not to accept a redefinition of the
term “spouse” that would lead to it including same sex couples.
CHILD PORNOGRAPHY
Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the third group deals with the issue of child
pornography. The petitioners call on parliament, at the earliest
possible opportunity, to invoke section 33 of the charter of
rights and freedoms, the notwithstanding clause, to overturn the
ruling that has been very distasteful for many in British
Columbia.
IMMIGRATION
Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the fourth group of petitions is rather thick and deals
with immigration. The petitioners call on parliament to enact
changes to Canada's immigration laws to allow the deportation of
obvious and blatant abusers of the system. They also ask that
claimants demonstrate through identification documentation or
other means that they face genuine political persecution.
1215
FIREARMS
Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, ironically on the day that I put in my private member's
bill that deals with the firearms requirements, the final
petition I am presenting also concerns firearms. The petitioners
call on parliament to repeal the act respecting firearms and
other weapons and to replace it with legislation that deals
specifically with criminals instead of law-abiding citizens.
The Speaker: As a normal rule, we only have a maximum of
five, but the House seemed receptive today so I thought I would
let the hon. member give all his petitions before the break.
THE SENATE
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
NDP): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, it is an
honour to present a petition on behalf of a number of
constituents who give a long list of reasons that they do not
like the Senate. I will not go into the details as I have
presented these in previous petitions. Basically they are
calling upon the House of Commons to take whatever measures are
necessary in order to abolish the present Senate.
* * *
[Translation]
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): I ask, Mr. Speaker,
that the remaining questions be allowed to stand.
The Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[Translation]
MUNICIPAL GRANTS ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-10, an
act to amend the Municipal Grants Act, be read the second time
and referred to a committee.
Mr. Ghislain Lebel (Chambly, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I was saying that
in a civilized society, when a municipality develops an area or
a street, or rebuilds infrastructures such as water or sewer
pipes that are obsolete, blocked or broken, it is the abutting
owners, that is the people living on either side of the street,
who pay for such works.
However, the federal government is no ordinary citizen, even
though it uses such infrastructures. Take, for example, a
federal pier. Piers are huge things, even small ones. If a pier,
a airport facility or something similar is located across from a
federal lot or on it, there are astronomical costs involved just
to go by the government's facilities, but the government refuses
to pay.
The government claims that these services are not for its
servicing and does not want to contribute. In the bill, the
government declines any responsibility regarding the payment of
what is normally paid by abutting owners in the case of ports or
national airports. As is always the policy with this government,
the little guy the one who ends up paying.
The little guy is the one who subsidizes the federal government
and its facilities. And this is profoundly unfair.
Clearly this government is past master at the art of getting the
most disadvantaged to pay. Employment insurance was mentioned
earlier. This cannot go on indefinitely. As we say in more
colloquial terms, “the government is fouling its own nest”, and
in the end, sooner or later, it will pay.
Let us take the example of its cutting its transfers to the
provinces, notwithstanding the expected profits, the expected
surpluses of $95 billion in the next five years. The government
cut transfers to the provinces for health care. In Quebec, we
are told that the figures are hard to grasp, but over the past
five years. it is something like $7.5 billion or thereabouts.
And it is the seniors who are suffering the most as the result
of these cuts.
1220
As we know, seniors tend to support the party currently in
power. They are hurting themselves and do not seem to realize
it. The time for the government to be taking people and seniors
for granted because it is the federal government and Liberal to
boot is past. It thinks everything is automatic, that seniors
will vote for this government. Unfortunately for the
government, this is not always true, and these people are
beginning to realize that this government, with its policies, is
picking on the neediest, and they are often seniors,
unfortunately.
Bill C-10—we are not going to quibble about it—is even better than
what we used to have, except that the minister should perhaps go
back to his drawing board and, in so far as possible, try to
eliminate the discretionary power he is being given. We know
all about ministerial discretion—wisdom is not always the result
when the minister exercises his discretion. The door is often
opened to criticism and, even more often, to charges of
political scheming.
We are told that our courts are backlogged. It is up to the
lawmakers to do everything possible to ensure that laws are as
clear as possible, so that challenges are kept to a strict
minimum.
Eliminating court backlogs and doing their job of drafting
policies that are models of clarity, which Bill C-10
unfortunately is not, is how the lawmakers can help society. The
Bloc Quebecois is still going to support this bill, however.
The Minister of Public Works' press release put it this way
“Modernized Municipal Grants Act Improves Fairness of Federal
Payments in Lieu of Taxes”. I would have said the opposite.
The government has to realize that its very presence in a
municipality generates costs for the whole community that it is
not prepared to assume. Why do the federal government and Her
Majesty not behave like good citizens?
It seems to me that their primary concern ought to be projecting
the image of a good citizen, one that pays its way in society
and gives the municipalities their due. Federal buildings on
provincial land also benefit from services, particularly in
recent years when the government emblazons every federal
building or office with a huge Canadian flag. It is all very
well to seek visibility, but the government should, in my
opinion, start with paying its dues.
The Bloc Quebecois is probably going to vote for this bill, but
we will have questions for the minister when it is referred to a
committee.
Mention is made of extensive consultations, but the Union des
municipalités du Québec, one of those consulted, complains of
the very tight deadline.
The bill was introduced barely a week ago, and its full impact
cannot be gauged within a few days. Far more time than that is
needed.
1225
We ask the minister, when the bill goes to a committee, to show
some public spirit and perhaps bring before the committee some
amendments to take away the minister's discretionary power,
which does not augur well.
[English]
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I
appreciate the opportunity to enter into the debate on Bill C-10.
I know from the investigation I have done that this bill comes
to us as a result of two years of exhaustive consultations with
various parties, most significantly the Federation of Canadian
Municipalities which is the organization that represents
municipal governments. There were many compelling issues which it
had to address. From what I can understand the consultation
process went very smoothly and people were well satisfied.
That satisfaction ended rather quickly when the FCM felt quite
strongly that this bill was introduced too quickly. The FCM was
not given the time to review the contents of Bill C-10 and have
further consultation with its members. In other words, we are
dealing with this bill now without having given the FCM the
opportunity to do a broad consultation with its membership to
look at the actual document.
We would hope that after the FCM has had the time to open this
document and look at the various clauses that it would meet many
of the issues which were identified in the consultation process.
I understand that there are many compelling issues because this
bill deals with property taxes and we all know how critical
property taxes are to municipalities. Taxes are really their
only source of revenue. The way property taxes are levied on
federal government properties and the way municipalities can
collect those taxes is obviously of key and paramount importance
to anyone involved in municipal governments.
Property tax is the basis for the major source of revenue for
municipal governments. It is the tax base that provides for the
provision of municipal services and amenities. It is the capital
against which municipal government itself can borrow for various
undertakings. Control over property tax and the authority to set
taxes from year to year is the only thing which gives municipal
councils the ability to function and to flourish and to do their
job.
Obviously the FCM took a very keen interest in this issue when
the Municipal Grants Act came up for amendment and the
consultation period began. It is a mystery as to why we would
jeopardize such a co-operative undertaking as the consultation
period by bringing the bill forward now without giving the
Federation of Canadian Municipalities time to consult one more
time. We should have given it time to ask: Is the document the
way we want it? Have all the bases been touched? Is the bill
going to give satisfaction to the many concerns we have regarding
municipal taxation et cetera?
The Municipal Grants Act and various other acts establishing
crown corporations provide for federal payments in lieu of taxes.
They are called PILTs, payments in lieu of taxes. They are based
on local property tax rates and the assessed values of federal
properties. That is pretty straightforward. I did not have too
much trouble following up to that point. It does get rather
complex though. We are dealing with a very complex set of issues
when dealing with the assessment of property taxes on properties
owned by the federal government.
Most people do not realize that the federal government only
began paying property taxes to municipalities in 1950. Until
1950 the federal government did not pay property taxes to
municipalities for the properties it owned. It was only after
very aggressive lobbying and representation by the Federation of
Canadian Municipalities that it undertook and finally succeeded
in having the federal government pay its fair share for the
properties which it owned within the municipal regions around the
country.
The purpose in making PILTs is to ensure that the federal
government meets its financial obligations to those municipal
governments where federal properties are located. In this way
the principles of fairness and equity can be upheld.
1230
That is the goal. That is the objective. In my conversations
with the FCM that is all it really wanted, to have the principles
of fairness and equity upheld. I am hoping to demonstrate how
the federal government breached that noble aspiration. It really
failed to be fair and reasonable. The principles of fairness and
equity were not upheld in 1992.
In 1992 the federal government paid $426 million on departmental
properties to the municipalities, a fair whack of dough by
anyone's account. In addition, federal Crown corporations
responsible to the treasury board paid another $175 million.
It seemed all would be well with the land and people would be
generally satisfied to receive payments to offset their own costs
in running their municipalities. However, in the last month of
1992, the federal government imposed a two year freeze on
property tax payments. This is a luxury the federal government
has. Arbitrarily, out of the blue, the federal government simply
said to the municipalities that it did not want to pay any more
property taxes because it was in sort of a budget crisis or a
deficit situation. As one way to reduce its deficit it said that
it would not pay its taxes to them.
Now there is a concept. I wonder how long we would get away
with making a statement like that to the federal government. If
my personal household finances were in disarray, which in fact
they are, I cannot say to the federal government that I will not
pay my taxes for two years until I catch up on my other
obligations. It would not work.
We can see why the municipalities were very concerned that the
federal government had the control, power and authority to
arbitrarily and unilaterally announce that it would not pay
property taxes any more. When the Municipal Grants Act came up
for review there was a great deal of attention paid from across
the country.
There was no prior consultation with the Federation of Canadian
Municipalities or with any municipal governments, many of which
already had their budgets prewritten for 1993. They had already
planned on a certain amount of money coming in during 1992 that
they were to spend in 1993 when their intergovernmental partner
arbitrarily announced it would not give them the money.
Understandably it caused some furor across the country.
This freeze came just weeks after the Federation of Canadian
Municipalities finished participating in a two year evaluation of
the municipal grants program by the department of public works.
It had just gone through a long, drawn out consultation with the
municipalities. Again, much in the same way it happened here,
the federal government arbitrarily stopped the consultations and
did something that was entirely negative.
The two year evaluation at that time concluded that federal
property tax payments represented the government's fair share of
local costs as property owner. The freeze was arbitrary. No
concern over levels of property tax payments was expressed in the
evaluation.
An important principle behind the federal payment of property
taxes is that municipal governments and local ratepayers should
not be at a disadvantage by having federal properties on land
that could otherwise be taxed by a private sector owner at a
better rate.
In other words, it should not be a liability to have federal
government buildings within municipalities, but in fact it is if
they have to forgo revenue. If they cannot charge the federal
government tax at the same mill rate they would be able to charge
a private sector company on that land, surely the municipalities
are at a real disadvantage.
We must structure the Municipal Grants Act in a way that people
do not view having the government department as a liability,
especially one which takes up a large area. That is land which
could otherwise be taxed at a reasonable rate of return and the
municipality could prosper and function.
All properties should be taxed equally regardless of ownership.
That is the principle we want to see reflected in Bill C-10.
There is some concern within the Canadian Federation of
Municipalities that may not be the case. It really has not had
time to review Bill C-10 because it just showed up on its
doorstep a few days ago and we are debating it in the House of
Commons already. There is a great deal of concern out there.
As the largest property owner and taxing authority in the
country, the Government of Canada set a dangerous example when it
declared a freeze on property tax payments to some 2,200
municipal governments with federal properties in their
municipalities.
I know the federal government owns 50,000 buildings across
Canada.
Actually I have heard a figure as high as 68,000 buildings across
Canada. That is an awful lot of property on which it should be
paying taxes at a normal mill rate to municipalities. They
should celebrate when a government department wants to move to
their area. They should not have to be suspect and worried about
a net loss by hosting the federal government in their
communities.
1235
The FCM, Public Works Canada and the Treasury Board Secretariat
formed a joint technical committee on PILTs in the spring of 1993
to look at options for long term improvements in arrangements for
federal payment of property taxes and to consider the
implementation of the freeze.
Through its political and technical representations, FCM
succeeded in having the federal government interpret the freeze
on departmental properties such that it met all increases in
PILTs during the first year of the freeze. There was some
satisfaction. Some very in-depth negotiations went on and some
very capable people on the part of the FCM came forward to
represent, thankfully, the people who live in the municipalities.
We have to remember that municipal governments are really the
level of government most close to us. They take care of our
immediate needs in terms of road repair, garbage collection, fire
departments and cats stuck in a tree. They are the ones who will
help.
It is very important that they are adequately funded because
people often question what gets done with the taxes they send to
the federal government. Often the federal government is dealing
with things that are at a level three steps removed from the
ordinary Canadian. It is very important what happens to the
PILTs. What the FCM does with its PILTs is very important to
Canadians.
The FCM made federal property tax payments a major issue in its
call to action during the 1993 election campaign. I dare say it
played a big role in the 1993 election campaign.
We all know what happened in 1993. The government of the day
was humiliated. It was absolutely dismantled. It went from a
couple of hundred seats down to two. It was partly this campaign
from municipalities, people who had direct contact with their
people, that probably led to that. They were so dissatisfied, in
fact so horrified by the arbitrary freeze of their property tax
payments, that they were angry at the government of the day in
such a way that I believe they did help shape the results of that
1993 election campaign.
As a result of the strong municipal support for FCM's 1993
election campaign on PILTs, the newly elected government
committed that all increases on PILTs, on departmental
properties, would be met for the second and final year of the
freeze. They were getting some satisfaction from the newly
elected government after the 1993 election.
They are disappointed now, though, that the newly elected
government that took power after 1993 is acting in the same kind
of arbitrary way. It is not dealing with the monetary issue, but
it is arbitrarily ceasing the very productive consultation
process and showing up with the document we call Bill C-10
without giving the FCM a real opportunity to screen it, to test
it and to make sure the language is such that it will meet the
needs and very real concerns we see in the position paper.
We all know that acts do not get opened for amendment every day.
It is very difficult. Once we have an act open for amendment,
that is the opportunity to amend any section of the act. We are
not limited to the one or two specific reasons the government
opened it up. We might want the opportunity to make an amendment
to a completely different section. We want to make sure to get
it right because we do not get chances every day to amend
legislation.
I strongly voice my concern too. Why did the government stop
listening? When things were going so well and it looked like
some co-operative settlement might be arrived at on what to do
with the Municipal Grants Act, why did it then begin to act with
such a heavy hand and arbitrary way?
As a result of the strong municipal support for the FCM's
campaign, again the newly elected government committed that all
increases on PILTs would be met for the second and final year of
the freeze. The freeze on crown corporations was lifted outright
for the second year. Moreover, the Minister of Public Works and
Government Services and the President of the Treasury Board
agreed in 1995 to negotiations with the FCM on longstanding
municipal concerns respecting laws and regulations governing
PILTs.
1240
I will summarize what we have seen as the real concern through
our research on this issue. The real concern is that there
should be rules in place in the Municipal Grants Act to ensure
that neither party can arbitrarily alter the terms and conditions
of the relationship by simply backing out, as we saw in 1992. We
also want to make sure the assessment on government buildings is
no different from the assessment on private sector buildings.
The predictable consequence of that is that no municipality
would want a government department to set up shop in its area
because it would be forgoing revenue. Why on earth would a
municipality want all that space occupied by a freeloader, one
might say? I do not think any responsible municipal government
would encourage that.
The rules governing federal payments of property taxes have long
been an issue in relations between federal and municipal
governments. There is a long history that goes back to 1950 when
the federal government did not pay any taxes at all on its
buildings. It was only after quite a brouhaha that the FCM got
satisfaction and the federal government started paying any taxes
whatsoever.
Under the Municipal Grants Act the government is able to set its
own assessed values on properties and pay lower property taxes.
That is a key point that we would like to see addressed in Bill
C-10. The government should not be able to arbitrarily say what
it will pay per year for occupying a couple of acres of land.
That is a big brother type approach that is outdated and
obsolete. It does not speak well of the type of
intergovernmental relations we would want to see.
Currently federal reviews of property values frequently lead to
the retroactive reduction of PILTs, causing severe financial
disruption to municipal governments. I use the example of 1992
where 2,200 municipalities already had their budgets set for 1993
only to lose their main source of revenue, the federal government
tax transfer or the payment of property taxes from the federal
government to the municipalities. We cannot have that.
The only recourse of the municipalities is to the municipal
grants review committee comprised of appointees of the minister.
If they have a grievance about the way property tax values were
assessed, their only avenue of recourse is to a group of the
minister's own appointees. That is not in the interest of basic
fairness or natural justice either. I cannot see how that is
fair. I know that is one of the issues that is addressed in Bill
C-10. They want an appeals board or an advisory committee that
will be structured in a more fair and democratic way.
One thing I will certainly say about the Federation of Canadian
Municipalities is that it is nothing if not democratic. It has
great consultation with its people. It does not move forward on
an issue until it has done broad consultation across the country.
It truly builds consensus on issues before it makes an
announcement. Hence its frustration that it is not able to have
that level of consultation about Bill C-10.
After heavy and long drawn out negotiations in 1995 there was a
consensus report of the joint technical committee on PILTs to
which I referred. Many of the issues I started my remarks with
stem from that report, such as the critical importance of having
a guaranteed stream of taxation revenue that they do not have to
worry about being arbitrarily interrupted by one party and the
fact that property taxes should be set at the same level for
government buildings as they are for private sector buildings to
avoid the bizarre spectre of losing revenue by having a
government department set up shop in a community.
With those few reservations and criticisms our party is
reviewing Bill C-10 with the guidance and direction of the
Federation of Canadian Municipalities. If it is satisfied with
the bill we will do what we can to help get it through to give
the federation the security it wants on at least the issues
addressed in Bill C-10.
1245
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Tobique—Mactaquac, PC): Mr. Speaker,
I am pleased to have the opportunity today to speak on Bill C-10,
the proposed changes to the Municipal Grants Act, or what will
become the payments in lieu of tax act.
This might not be the most exciting legislation to be debated in
the House this fall. Discussion of process and the internal
mechanics of government are unlikely to make coverage of
parliamentary debates one of the top rated shows on Canadian
television, but it is certainly important legislation.
I will begin by bringing to the attention of members of
parliament a concern expressed to me about the breakneck speed
this legislation is being rushed through parliament. From there I
want to review some of the history of the legislation, both the
background and some of the most recent problems that have led to
this new bill.
From there, I will present a brief overview of the bill from my
own perspective and then dive into an analysis of some of the
changes proposed, particularly with respect to the dispute
advisory panel.
Finally, I will give hon. members my critique of the bill and I
will try to persuade them that the legislation needs more work.
Yesterday, in conversations my staff had with representatives
from the Federation of Canadian Municipalities or FCM, it was
made abundantly clear that municipalities and their organizations
do not appreciate having this legislation rammed down their
throats.
Municipalities were not given any advance notice that this
legislation would be introduced. No information, no background
notes, no news releases, no summaries or other materials were
sent out to municipalities. They have also not had time to study
the bill and respond to it. In the case of FCM, it has not had
time to consult its members on the bill.
This begs the question: If this is such a great piece of
legislation, then what is the rush? We all know from experience
that when legislation is rushed through the House, mistakes often
get overlooked. Quick legislation is bad legislation.
As a member of the House and as a member of the committee that
will attempt to clean up any mistakes in the bill, I call upon
the government to allow more time for the House and the standing
committee to work on the bill and more time for municipalities
and other stakeholders to ensure the legislation will correct
past problems without creating new ones.
Speaking of past problems, the very fact that we have a
Municipal Grants Act is a bit of an absurdity of history in that
the federal government does not officially recognize the
existence of municipalities. Towns, cities and local service
districts are not mentioned in the constitution. They have no
official mandate. They are entirely creations of provincial
governments. Furthermore, the federal government has a
constitutional exemption from paying local taxes.
The problem is that the federal government, which owns property
in almost 2,000 municipalities across the country, benefits from
all kinds of municipal services such as water and sewage, roads
and other infrastructure. Those services are not free. In spite
of its constitutional exemption, the federal government should
pay for those services like every other good property owner.
This paradox was resolved in 1950 with the passage of the first
Municipal Grants Act, which has been updated and revised many
times, most recently in 1980. Since 1980, there have been a
number of issues pop up that the current legislation does not and
cannot resolve. This is the basis of the bill we have before us
today.
For example, a couple of years ago, I remember that there was a
dispute between the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and local
municipalities as to whether the department had to make a payment
in lieu of taxes on wharves.
Not too long ago, the federally owned Aeroports de Montréal
protested a property evaluation by the city of Dorval. Ottawa
re-evaluated the land at $100 million less than the property
assessment and told the city that if it did not like it, it could
contest the figure before the federal government appointed
tribunal.
In my own province of New Brunswick, the provincial department
of municipalities estimates how much municipalities will receive
from federal payments in lieu of taxes and pays them that amount.
The department then goes about collecting the payments from the
federal government. However, it is only some time later that the
federal government actually pays the amount due and in some cases
the payment has taken years.
In 1995 the city of Halifax yelled foul when after increasing
the evaluation of the Citadel for $15 million to $36 million, the
federal government reduced its evaluation from $15 million to
$1.2 million.
Short of going to court, the two governments had no way of
resolving this dispute.
1250
In 1992, the Government of Quebec gave municipalities the right
to replace all or part of their business occupancy taxes with a
new real property levy. The result was a sudden $41 million
increase in federal payments to Quebec municipalities.
In Ontario, the provincial government eliminated its business
occupancy tax. To make up for lost revenue, Ontario
municipalities increased their commercial real property tax rates
by an average of about 45%. These reforms cost the federal
government as much as $100 million a year more in payments in
lieu of taxes and in leasehold occupancy costs. Furthermore,
crown corporations are paying approximately $30 million more.
As well, a freeze on the payments from 1993 to 1995 made
municipal governments distrustful of the federal government and
made the current system unreliable.
Clearly, it is time to update the legislation to deal with these
problems that have presented themselves in recent years.
The bill before us today proposes changes in a number of areas.
The bill would change the name of the legislation from the
Municipal Grants Act to the payments in lieu of tax act, while
references in the legislation to “grants” will be placed with
the word “payments”. This is to better reflect the nature of
the program and the relationship between the Government of Canada
as a property owner and Canadian and municipal governments.
The bill proposes introducing compensation for late payments by
the federal government to municipalities. It would also give the
authority to Ottawa to make payments when tenants on federal
property default on their local tax bills. These are important
changes under which the federal government accepts a position
much closer to that of other property owners regarding its tax
obligations.
It would establish a dispute advisory panel under the act with a
minimum of two board members from each province and territory.
The advisory panel would recommend solutions to the minister when
disputes arise between municipalities and the federal government
over the appropriate amount of payments.
Outdoor swimming pools, golf course improvements, outdoor
theatres, residential driveways and employee parking improvements
would be added to the definition of federal property and the bill
would clarify the wording of the act as it relates to other
non-building structures.
As well, Bill C-10 proposes to improve the predictability of
payments for municipalities by clarifying how payments are
calculated for federal farm property, how deductions are
calculated when municipalities are unable or unwilling to provide
the federal property with equivalent services to those received
by similar private property or structures. It will also clarify
the status of Parks Canada assets as federal property.
Although the bill does introduce some important changes, there
is one important area where I have strong reservations. Other
than in clause 4 of the bill, which states that the intent of the
act, and which I think is a waste of space as it accomplishes
nothing, I would say that 90% of the bill is an improvement over
the existing legislation. The important exception is in clause
14, which would establish a new disputes advisory panel.
There are two major difficulties with this proposed new panel,
the first being one of fairness and balance and the second being
the composition of the panel.
Let us imagine a court trial in which the defendant got to pick
his own jury, pay the jury and install himself as the final judge
with no chance of appeal. How do we think the defendant would
do? I suspect he would win just about every case. Would anyone
describe the system as fair? I do not think so.
Yet this is exactly the kind of dispute settlement panel that
the minister has proposed in Bill C-10.
Differences in opinion often arise between municipalities and
the federal government over how much the crown owes for payments
in lieu of taxes. These disputes are often based on the
evaluation of a property or the definition and classification of
a property.
What the minister has proposed is that he should establish an
advisory panel composed of a minimum of 2 persons for each
province and territory for a total of at least 26 members. The
members would be chosen only by the minister. The minister will
decide how qualified the members of the panel need to be. He
will pay them $125 an hour plus expenses and they will report
only to him.
The minister can fire any or all members of the board at any
time for any reason if, for example, he disagrees with their
decision. He can completely ignore any decisions of the panel if
it suits his purpose and his decision is absolutely final. There
is no appeal.
1255
Not a bad deal. So much for fairness.
On issues related to the composition of the panel, let us look
at clause 14 in more detail. As I have said, subclause 1
proposes a panel consisting of no less than two members from
every province and territory with relevant knowledge and
experience. My first reaction was that once the bill passes,
there are going to be 26 very happy Liberals across the country
who will have brand new patronage jobs. After all, $125 per hour
plus expenses is a pretty good day.
At present, the minister has an informal advisory committee that
has a chairperson and two members from the three provinces where
there are currently outstanding disputes with municipalities,
namely in Alberta, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. On any
particular dispute, the two members from that province and the
chairperson meet to resolve the dispute. Once all the disputes
have been dealt with, the committee of three is disbanded. In
other words, this is a temporary committee brought together and
paid on an as needed basis, and when the job is done everyone
goes home.
What the minister is proposing is that we will replace this as
needed committee of 3 with a permanent panel of 26 members or
better. My question is that, for example, if no payment disputes
arise in the territory of Nunavut in the next 30 years, why do we
need to have at least 2 permanent members from Nunavut on the
committee before they have anything to do? The same is true of
any other province or territory. Why should the government
undertake a rigorous search process and ask professional people
to serve on a panel and then never give them anything to do?
Would it not be better to wait until a dispute arises?
It is interesting to note that there is not upper limit on the
number of persons who can be appointed to this panel.
Subclause 1 also does not define what is meant by “relevant
knowledge or experience”. I assume this is also left up to the
minister. There are several professional bodies of appraisers in
the country, such as the Appraisal Institute of Canada and
L'Ordre des Evaluateurs agréés du Québec. I do not think it
would be too much to require members of the panel to have some
sort of professional designation. Otherwise, we leave the system
open for abuse and we start to see such things as a panel full of
members who have no qualifications to hold office other than the
fact that they are Liberal Party members or once gave money to
the Liberal Party.
Subclause 2 sets out the mandate of the panel as being to advise
the minister on disputes over payments with municipalities.
However, there is nothing in the bill to indicate how the
minister would handle potential conflicts of interest where panel
members are concerned.
For example, it is reasonable to assume that since many of the
experts on valuation of property work for or with municipalities,
that at some point there will be panel members who might be
employed with municipalities. How is the panel supposed to
conduct itself if a dispute arises with a municipality, and one
or more of the panel members who will adjudicate the dispute
actually works for that same municipality?
Similarly, under subclause 5, the bill indicates members of the
panel may be employed in the Public Service of Canada. What
would be the approach if a dispute arises concerning the same
federal department? It is clear that the legislation must
indicate how the panel would deal with conflicts and potential
conflicts of interest.
Subclause 3 sets out the duties of the chairperson as
supervising and directing the operation and functioning the
advisory panel. It does not, however, give a clear indication of
the workload of the chairperson. Is this a full time job?
Apparently, if the chairperson picks up the phone to call a panel
member for two minutes, he or she can then bill the taxpayers for
$125 plus expenses for an hour's work. These things need to be
clarified.
Going back to subclause 1, it says that members of the panel
serve at the pleasure of the minister. This is a legal term
meaning that at any time and for any reason the minister can fire
any or all members of the panel. As a result, panel members may
be reluctant to give independent advice or to reach a decision on
a dispute that they feel the minister might disagree with.
I would much rather see the phrase “good behaviour” used as it
gives a much greater degree of independence to panel members to
reach independent decisions without fear of repercussion from the
minister. I feel that this would give better balance to the
panel's decision and result in better settlements for taxpayers.
I will be working with municipalities and municipal
organizations over the next two weeks in an effort to find areas
where the bill needs to be fixed.
I will also be looking for solutions to the problems I have
enumerated today.
1300
Looking at the bill in its entirety, it is generally an
improvement over the present act, legislation of 1980. It goes a
long way toward addressing some of the problems that have cropped
up in recent years.
However, it is clear that this bill still needs a lot of work. I
look forward to fixing the bill in committee. The bill should
not be defeated at this point because it is imperfect.
Nevertheless, the problems need to be dealt with.
My party and I call upon other members of the House to support
the bill at second reading so that we can get it into committee
and hopefully fix some or all of these problems. I also call
upon the minister to be open to working with members of the
committee to find ways to make the bill work better for him, for
his government and for Canadian taxpayers.
Based on how well we do in committee, members of parliament can
then decide at third reading if the bill in its final form is
worthy of our support.
Mr. Bryon Wilfert (Oak Ridges, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am
extremely pleased to participate in the debate on Bill C-10 since
I once held the position of president of the Federation of
Canadian Municipalities.
I would like to clear up a misunderstanding that has been
presented to the House.
This legislation is something that the FCM has wanted since the
arbitrary freeze and the 10% reduction the Tories brought in in
December 1992. Two weeks ago federal officials briefed the FCM
on the policy initiatives and proposed regulations in the bill.
While it is true that the FCM general membership has not had a
chance to review the details, the executive director of the FCM
and the director of policy have reviewed it. I can say from long
experience if there were problems in the bill, I for one would
have received a call because I am in constant contact with my
municipal colleagues.
This bill is something we have wanted for many years,
particularly since the December 1992 announcement by the then
Conservative Minister of Finance who brought in the 10%
reduction. This is an extremely important bill for municipal
governments.
To clarify in terms of how we got to this stage, the Municipal
Grants Act and various acts establishing crown corporations
provided for federal payments in lieu of taxes, PILTs, based on
local property taxes in 1950 following years of persistent
representations by the FCM. The purpose of making the PILTs is
to ensure that the federal government meets its financial
obligations to those municipal governments where federal
properties are located. In this way we underline the principles
of fairness and equity so that they are upheld.
In 1992 the federal government paid $426 million on departmental
properties. In addition, federal crown corporations responsible
to the treasury board paid $175 million. In December 1992 the
Conservative government imposed a two year freeze on property
taxes without any consultation. This was done at a time when
many municipal governments had already established their 1993
budgets. The freeze was clearly arbitrary. No concern for any of
the levels of property tax payments was expressed when this was
done.
An important principle behind federal payment of property taxes
is that municipal governments and local taxpayers should not be
at a disadvantage for having a federal property in the community
which could otherwise be taxed at the applicable rate. All
properties should be taxed equally regardless of ownership.
What happened in 1992? The Conservatives imposed a freeze on
crown corporations with unfair tax advantages over the private
sector competition, at the expense of homeowners and businesses.
As the largest property owner and taxing authority in this
country, the Canadian government set a dangerous example when it
declared a freeze on property taxes to some 2,200 municipal
governments with federal properties. This 10% reduction was
unacceptable to the municipal leaders and to the general public.
1305
Fortunately in 1993 this government came to power. It sent out
an immediate note that it was prepared to work with municipal
governments. I would point out that in 1993 it was this
government which supported the Federation of Canadian
Municipalities in its national infrastructure program. It was
this government which supported and has promoted the 20% club,
which is to reduce CO2 emissions by 20% over 10 years. It was
this government which supported municipal governments and
provided the tools when it came to urban crime and safety issues.
This government has nothing to apologize for on this issue. This
government clearly has worked every step of the way with
municipal governments to make sure that the legislation which
they have been asking for is before the House today.
After the 1993 election the newly elected Liberal government
committed that all increases in PILTs on departmental properties
would be met for the second and final year of the freeze. The
freeze on crown corporations was lifted outright in the second
year.
Moreover, the Minister of Public Works and Government Services
and the President of the Treasury Board agreed in 1995 to
negotiations with the FCM on longstanding municipal concerns
respecting laws and regulations governing PILTs. Rules governing
federal payments respecting law regulations have long been an
issue between the federal and municipal governments. 1996-97 was
a watershed. The FCM and federal officials had intensive
negotiations. My colleague from the New Democratic Party referred
to the technical steering committee that was set up. That
culminated in an agreement in 1997.
I was present when that agreement was reached. My colleague
from Dauphin—Swan River was one who was concerned as well when
he was mayor. Issues such as the following ones were agreed to.
Interest on late payments would come into effect. There would be
improved assurance on payment amounts and greater timeliness of
payments. The federal government and crown corporations would
begin to make PILTs on property improvements subordinate to
buildings commonly found in the private sector, including
fencing, paving, sidewalks, et cetera.
I am very pleased that the government has now brought
legislation to the House which will modernize the Municipal
Grants Act to improve fairness and equity. What is very
important to municipal leaders is that we now have predictability
of federal payments in lieu of taxes to approximately 2,000
municipal governments.
I congratulate the minister of public works and the Federation
of Canadian Municipalities for the work they have done over the
years which has led to this historic occasion. The legislation
has been changed to payments in lieu of taxes. That in itself is
an important recognition. The federal government is not giving
out grants. It is paying taxes like everyone else. It is no
different from anyone else and it is prepared to pay on time like
everyone else.
A goodwill clause has been introduced to better reflect the
nature of the program and the relationship between the federal
government as a property owner and municipal governments. Of
particular importance, and what highlights the very positive
relationship which has developed since the coming to power of the
Liberal government, is that despite recent increases in payments
in lieu of taxes brought about by provincial assessment and
taxation reform, there is nothing in this legislative package
which causes a reduction in the payment to a single municipal
government.
The government could always appeal its assessment like we can,
but it would go through the same process.
1310
I had the opportunity to consult with municipal leaders in my
riding during the summer last year. The feedback was extremely
positive. Many of the issues raised are now contained in the
legislation.
The Minister of Public Works and Government Services has clearly
listened. The parliamentary secretary to the minister indicated
the minister had 11 consultations around the country. The
feedback was extremely positive. The government, rather than
imposing freezes or reductions, has been working co-operatively
and constructively with municipal governments, particularly with
the Federation of Canadian Municipalities. I am very delighted to
note that many of the issues have been addressed.
The legislation empowers the Minister of Public Works and
Government Services to pay at his discretion supplementary
amounts when payments are delayed. A dispute advisory panel can
be established under the act with expert representation from all
provinces and territories to recommend to the minister
appropriate solutions for disputes by municipal governments and
the department concerning payment accounts. It also commits to
meeting municipal payment schedules when information is provided
on an equivalent basis to that accorded to taxable persons. There
is the introduction of compensation for late payments and
authority to make payments when tenants on federal properties
default on their tax obligations.
These are important changes under which the government accepts a
position much closer to that of other property owners regarding
its tax obligations. What a difference seven years makes. This
bill marks a turning point in the federal government's relations
with municipal governments through co-operation, consultation and
respect. These changes confirm a new era.
If there are concerns by the opposition or if some municipal
governments look at the bill and want to slightly change it,
after this bill is passed at second reading it will go to
committee. I presume that is where, if needed, any i's
will be dotted or t's will be crossed.
Canada's largest urban centres such as Toronto, Vancouver and
Montreal will benefit significantly from these changes. There
will be no more unilateral tax freezes, no more tax reductions by
the federal government and no more changes without consultation.
We have to work together remembering that there is only one
taxpayer. The goal of the government is very clear. For federal
leaders and municipal leaders, it is the same. We have the
common goal to serve the taxpayer best.
This bill fulfils the commitment which the government made when
it came to power in 1993 having been part of the negotiations
from 1993 to 1997. It is a commitment I am very proud of. The
government has this legislation before the House.
The FCM was very anxious that this legislation came before the
House because it provides the predictability. It provides the
fairness. It provides the equity. These are things which those
of us who have been involved in this issue for some time have
wanted. This legislation recognizes the realities of the 1990s.
It is legislation that is modern and reflects the desire of
governments to deal with each other in a fair and clear manner.
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Tobique—Mactaquac, PC): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member from the Liberal Party had a very nice
speech. I have the utmost respect for this gentleman but I have
one question.
I listened to his speech. He said that this bill will be fully
debated in committee. That is exactly what I said in my speech.
He is just repeating what I said. I said that our party will
support the bill at second reading. We hope that in committee we
will be able to bring about the necessary changes so we can
support the bill at third reading. If we are not allowed to
bring about changes in committee, we will not have a choice but
to vote against the bill at third reading.
1315
I was surprised to learn that the hon. member opposite was a
former president of the Federation of Canadian Municipalities. My
staff was in contact with people in that organization just
yesterday. They are very upset that this bill is being rammed
through the House at this time, because there were no
consultations.
Would the hon. member agree to give the municipalities more time
to look at this piece of legislation in order for them to decide
what they agree with or do not agree with? As the former
president of the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, he should
know how the municipalities work. The government should have
used caution and not moved so fast.
Mr. Bryon Wilfert: Mr. Speaker, I wish my colleague had
been here in 1992. With those kinds of comments we might not
have had the Tories impose the arbitrary freeze and reduction on
municipal governments. Where were our friends in the Tory party
in 1992? Unfortunately they were not here, but that is history.
I would point out to the hon. gentleman that the FCM was fully
briefed two weeks ago. The president of the FCM will be at
committee. There certainly will not be any ramming. I presume
there will be full debate. I hope to take part in those
discussions. Even though I am not a member of the committee, I
intend to show up. This is obviously something that is near and
dear not only to my heart but to all colleagues.
We are in agreement. I was very heartened to hear that the
member will support this legislation. Unfortunately his
predecessors were not as generous or enlightened as the hon.
gentleman across the way. I thank him and look forward to his
support.
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
I listened carefully to the speech of the member for Oak Ridges.
When he was president of the Federation of Canadian
Municipalities he certainly listened well and he did a very good
job.
I have a problem with his statement that the government believes
in being fair and equitable. How can the federal government see
itself as being equal to every other taxpayer in the country when
it thinks it should be exempt from paying taxes?
I contacted people at the Federation of Canadian Municipalities
yesterday to talk to them about Bill C-10. To my surprise, they
informed me that they had no idea the bill had come back to the
House. I know for a fact that it has taken at least three years
for the government to take action on some of the recommendations
the FCM made to it.
I would like the hon. member for Oak Ridges to respond to the
question of fairness and equality as between the federal
government and Canadian taxpayers. As well, why was the FCM not
informed that the bill would be tabled in the House this week?
Mr. Bryon Wilfert: Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague
opposite for his questions. I have the greatest respect him. In
our previous lives we used to correspond a lot, but we never
actually came face to face until we came to the House.
I do not think it was a surprise to either of us that we have a
fair number of things in common when it comes to municipal
concerns.
1320
First, this legislation will treat the federal government as a
taxpayer, just like everyone else. The government will pay on
time. It will pay penalties if it does not. The bill will
ensure that if there is an assessment question the government
will go through the same process as taxpayers go through.
As far as the Federation of Canadian Municipalities is
concerned, it was briefed two weeks ago. The minister in June
1998 went to the FCM convention along with the Prime Minister.
It is too bad the Leader of the Opposition was not there. He
missed a tremendous speech on this issue.
This is what happened. The minister, in consultation with the
FCM, in June said to over 2,000 delegates “I want to hear from
you”, which is why the round tables were set up across the
country. I am sure the minister met with mayors and councillors
in their ridings to get feedback so that the minister would hear
the concerns of the grassroots. That is what happened.
The bill will be going to committee after second reading. I can
guarantee members that the president of the FCM will be there and
that he will make any comments with regard to anything in the
legislation that the FCM may have a question about. But to
suggest for a moment that it was not briefed is not the case. I
do not know to whom he was speaking at the FCM, but the executive
director and the policy director were fully briefed. They knew
what was in the bill. Two weeks have gone by and my phone is not
broken, but they did not call me.
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
commend the hon. member from Oakville for suggesting that there
was wide consultation, because there was. We all know that. It
took a little better than four and a half years to go through the
whole process.
The hon. member insisted that people at the FCM were thoroughly
briefed on the bill two weeks ago, and that may very well be
true. In fact, my consultation with people at the FCM
corroborates that indeed they were briefed.
The interesting thing is what happened between the time the FCM
people were briefed and the actual presentation of the bill.
Clearly the FCM people then had to be advised that there were
certain recommendations that were originally proposed to be
included in the bill, but were in fact not in the bill. The
addition of certain corporations to schedule 4, for example, was
deleted.
The other issue is that the panel should have some teeth and
that everything should not be at the discretion of the minister.
These recommendations were included in the report of the joint
technical committee and the consultations which took place.
If the hon. member is so absolutely convinced that everything is
hunky-dory with regard to the FCM and with regard to the
briefing, why is it that not all of those things, which
apparently he thought they understood, they apparently did not
agree with?
Mr. Bryon Wilfert: Mr. Speaker, although I come from the
fastest growing community in Canada, Richmond Hill, the riding is
Oak Ridges. We have not expanded to Oakville yet, although we
are probably working on it, but I do thank the member for that.
The president of the FCM was on Parliament Hill two weeks ago.
At that time—
Mr. Werner Schmidt: Nobody is denying that.
Mr. Bryon Wilfert: I appreciate the fact that the hon.
member collaborated what I said with regard to the fact that it
was consulted.
I do not remember saying that absolutely everything that every
municipal government or the FCM wanted was in the bill.
On the one hand we are saying that it took four and a half years
to get here. I guess the inference is that the process has been
slow. It was deliberately done in a way that got all of the
parties to the table, and that concluded in the agreement of
1997. If there was not a federal election in April 1997, the
legislation may have been before the House at that time. To
reinforce that we were getting it right, we held consultations
during the summer of last year.
What we have here is, in general, without question, what the FCM
wanted to see. When the bill goes to committee, I am sure that
anything that needs to be clarified or added will be dealt with.
1325
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
would ask the Chair to ensure that I get my full 20 minutes.
Bill C-10, an act to amend the Municipal Grants Act, does not go
far enough to ensure that municipalities will be treated fairly
and equally by the federal government and crown corporations on
the issue of property taxes.
There is no doubt that the minister and crown corporations still
retain too much discretionary power. If federal governments,
both past and present, really understood and did the right thing,
why would we need any kind of legislation regarding the whole
issue of the federal government paying taxes?
Canadians all pay taxes. We know what happens if we do not.
None of us want to encounter Revenue Canada.
The issue of grants in lieu of taxes goes back many years.
Whenever municipal leaders get together, grants in lieu of taxes
seems to be a favourite topic.
Despite federal constitutional powers for tax exemption, as we
approach the new millennium why does the federal government not
operate under the principle of equal and fair treatment when it
comes to paying its taxes on federal buildings located in
municipal jurisdictions?
I want to say a few words about municipalities. They have been
around for a long time in the country, a lot longer than the
Canadian federation. Like many of my colleagues in the House,
such as the member for Oak Ridges, I was a former municipal mayor
before coming to Ottawa. At least 10% of the members of
parliament in this House came from a municipality, and there is
no doubt that we all know the effects of both federal and
provincial downloading on the municipalities, as well as
governments not paying their taxes to municipalities.
The federal government needs to pay all of its taxes, period.
The federal government should not expect special treatment from
the taxpayers. The federal government uses the same services as
everyone else. It uses roads, sewage systems, water services,
garbage collection and other services.
Municipal governments are the backbone of the country's economy.
There are currently a couple of high cost items that municipal
governments across the land have to deal with. Those are water
and sewage.
It is unbelievable that in a country like ours there are many
municipalities and communities that do not have full water
treatment facilities. These communities basically rely on
chlorination. Giardia is commonplace in many of the communities.
Over the last couple of years we have heard in the press about
large communities, such as those close to Toronto and Victoria,
having cases of giardia.
Even deadlier bacteria, like cryptospiridium, cannot be treated
effectively with chlorine. These water treatment plants require
a huge capital investment and obviously the source of the capital
comes from taxation.
Mr. Speaker, I believe you are signalling me to end my remarks.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I am sorry to
interrupt the hon. member. He has utilized about four minutes
and will have approximately sixteen minutes in which to speak
when this bill comes before the House again.
It being 1.30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the
consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on today's
order paper.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
1330
[English]
CANADA POST CORPORATION ACT
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP) moved that Bill
C-238, an act to amend the Canada Post Corporation Act (mail
contractors), be read the second time and referred to a
committee.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I am very glad to have the bill come
forward. I felt very fortunate when my name was drawn in the
lottery and then very grateful when the standing committee chose
to make the bill votable.
I believe it is an issue of broad public interest and something
that is long overdue. I will argue, and I hope that I can prove
to the House, that we have an opportunity to correct a
longstanding injustice. We have an opportunity to right a
longstanding wrong.
My bill, Bill C-238, is probably one of the shortest. It is
certainly the shortest that I have ever seen. I think it might
be the smallest bill on record. It is one line exactly. It
calls for one simple thing, to repeal subsection 13(5) of the
Canada Post Corporation Act.
Subsection 13(5) is a very small subsection that bars rural
route mail contractors from the right to collective bargaining.
They do not have the right to form a union. They do not have the
right to join a union. They do not have the right to bargain
collectively.
I know that support for giving these people these rights is
spreading broadly. I know that the hon. member from Kamloops
strongly supports the concept because in his rural setting there
are rural route mail couriers who have probably sought him out to
lobby and to explain the problems they run into.
Why is this particular group of workers barred from collective
bargaining? The Canada Labour Code, the Canadian Charter of
Rights and Freedoms, international conventions and covenants all
guarantee the right to free collective bargaining for employees.
The reason is that subsection 13(5) makes the argument that these
are not to be considered employees. They are to be considered
independent contractors.
Faced with that problem, this group of workers went to the
Canada Labour Relations Board and asked, “Are we employees or
are we independent contractors?” They brought that question to
the only avenue of recourse that they really could bring it to.
The Canada Labour Relations Board ruled unanimously that these
are not independent contractors and that their relationship with
Canada Post is that of an employer and employee. At best, it is
a wholly dependent contractor. Under the Canada Labour Code, a
dependent contractor is, in fact, an employee.
One would wonder, then, what the problem is. This group of
workers went and got the ruling they were seeking. The problem
is that the government went to the Federal Court of Appeal and
had the CLRB ruling overturned, not on the basis of merits.
Frankly, the federal court did agree that these people are in
fact employees. It came to the same conclusions that the labour
board came to. It was strictly on jurisdiction. The Federal
Court of Appeal ruled that the Canada Labour Relations Board does
not have the jurisdiction to overrule a section in the Canada
Post Corporation Act. That is something that only parliament can
do and that is the reason we are here today, at the request of
the many rural route mail couriers who feel strongly about this
issue.
Who are they? There are roughly 5,000 rural route mail
couriers. They are the people who deliver mail anywhere other
than in an urban setting. They drive over the country roads
delivering mail to farms, homes and businesses all over rural
Canada. They get their work by tendering and contracting the
work. The contract is given to them and they keep it for a
period of five years. They then have to renew it after that
period of time.
The difference is that if they are truly independent contractors
there are a number of tests that they go through and look at to
say what the difference is between an independent contractor and
a dependent contractor or an employee. I would like to go
through some of the things that the Canada Labour Relations Board
looked at in making its ruling.
First, the concept of economic independence is one of the key
issues. Are they being directed and controlled by someone else,
or do they truly have control of their own job and workplace? In
this case, the Canada Labour Relations Board found that they were
economically dependent and not independent.
1335
As far as the control over the day to day operations of their
job, the Canada Post Corporation still dictates exactly how these
workers must do their job, how they have to sort the mail, what
route they have to take and when they have to drive it. It
dictates virtually every aspect of the person's working day. If
they were truly independent contractors they could make up their
own mind as to how and when they would get the job done, as long
as the job did get done.
When the Federal Court of Appeal reversed the decision, it left
the rural route mail couriers with no option but to seek recourse
in the House of Commons today. I am very proud to take the issue
forward as a private member's bill. I believe, as I began in my
comments, this is a historic injustice and it is fundamentally
wrong.
This is the only group of workers in the country who are
specifically barred from collective bargaining strictly for
financial reasons. There are other groups that are not allowed
to form a union. CSIS is not allowed to form a union for obvious
reasons of national security. Even the Parliament Hill staff are
not allowed to form a union, although I disagree with that. At
least we could make some argument that there are reasons why we
would not want some issues showing up on the bargaining table. In
the case of rural route mail couriers, they are really delivering
mail. It is not an issue of any kind of risk to our national
security.
Not allowing the rural route mail couriers to have collective
bargaining rights is a denial of their basic rights, the rights
that all working Canadians enjoy. I firmly believe it is a
violation of the principles conveyed and promoted in the Canadian
Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It is certainly a violation of
our international commitments to the ILO convention regarding the
freedom of association and the protection of the right to
organize. It is in violation of the international covenant on
civil and political rights. It is a violation of the
international covenant on economic, social and cultural rights.
These are all international covenants that Canada willingly
enters into.
I have been to the ILO with the Minister of Labour and have
heard wonderful, grand, eloquent speeches that the Minister of
Labour has given at the ILO, saying that this country supports
the right to free collective bargaining so that workers can
elevate their standards of wages and working conditions. I
believe him. I do not accuse the Liberal government of being
anti-union in any way.
I am looking at an anomaly in subsection 13(5). When subsection
13(5) was put in, it was just at the time when the Canada Post
Corporation Act was created in 1981. It was a time when the
Canada Post Corporation was showing a huge deficit. There was a
real money crunch. The lawyers involved obviously realized that
when the employees went from being under the Public Service Staff
Relations Act to being under the Canada Labour Code when the
corporation was created and that the Canada Labour Code
recognizes dependent contractors as employees, that they would
have a problem with the rural route mail couriers. So they
deliberately and specifically contemplated this with subsection
13(5). So that no application to have these workers considered
employees could succeed, they would be specifically barred.
It was strictly financial. I have quotes from Andre Ouellet,
the postmaster general at the time, admitting the same. He said
that it would be cost factor if these employees were allowed to
bargain collectively.
The tendering process, if it ever did serve the couriers well,
certainly does not serve them well now. Never before have they
needed to have the right to elevate their conditions somewhat. I
will give an example.
One example that I am aware of concerns a courier named Mavis
Wiebe who has been a rural route mail courier just outside of
Surrey, B.C. since 1978. It is Rural Route Number 8 in
Cloverdale. When she started she had 326 calls to make and she
was paid $1,000 a month to do her 26 kilometre route. Some 21
years later, Mavis Wiebe's route is now 1,000 points of call and
she is now paid $1,900 per month. Out of this, she has to pay
for her car, gas, repairs and insurance.
She gets no benefits whatsoever, like a normal employee does.
There is no UIC, no CPP and no workers' compensation. She has no
sick days. If she gets sick she has to hire somebody to take her
place. Ironically, the minister responsible for Canada Post uses
this as an example of why these people really are independent
entrepreneurs. He says that they hire people. Well they only
hire people if they are sick and they have an obligation and a
duty to do their route. It is a fact that they do not have sick
days.
1340
Mavis Wiebe puts her operating costs at $1,000 a month, leaving
her with $900 a month for days that can go as long as 12 to 14
hours during the busy season. She takes home an average of $6.84
an hour. If I was an independent contractor, I would not
structure my lifestyle to make $6.84 an hour.
She has an interesting quote. She says “My granddaughter at 14
just started working at McDonald's and she earns $7.15 an hour,
the minimum wage in B.C. She said to me, `Nana are you nuts? I
make more than you do”'. There is clearly something
fundamentally wrong here when a woman who has been doing this job
faithfully for 21 years finds herself in a position where she is
making less than minimum wage.
Further on in the article, many of the rural route couriers talk
about the tendering process and how it has been bastardized. It
is not a fair tendering system. When it is time to renew their
contract they are often told that there is a lot of competition
and that they had better bring their numbers down or they will
not likely get their contract. That is interfering with the fair
tendering process, yet there is case after case of this
happening. Rather than having their salaries go up with the cost
of living, they are actually being manoeuvred down and are
getting less money now in many cases than they did from previous
contracts.
I am very aware of the whole concept of independent contractors.
I worked in the building industry where this has been a problem
for quite some time. Contractors, who used to keep maybe 20
drywallers on their staff, would say to them “I am paying you
guys $20 an hour. I will give you $25 an hour and you just be
your own man. You are your own independent contractor now. You
still have to be at work at 8 and go home at 4.30. You still
have to take your lunch at noon. I am still going to provide
everything else to do your job but for the purposes of the law, I
am going to call you an independent contractor”. We could go
into a place with 20 drywallers working in a big area and each
one of them would consider themselves to be independent business.
They have no workers' compensation, no UIC and no CPP. It is
really trying to avoid payroll burden and payroll costs. It is a
net gain to the employer.
That is the game that the Canada Post Corporation has been
playing since 1981. I think it is wrong. It is wrong in the
building industry and it is wrong in the mail delivery business.
The supervision aspect alone is enough to win the argument in
terms of whether these individuals are dependent or independent,
but we do not have to do that.
I would urge all members who plan on speaking to the bill or
even when they get the opportunity to vote, to please read the
labour board ruling, decision 626 from April 29, 1987. It is a
very easy document to read. Canada Post Corporation is the
applicant and various unions are the respondents. It is a very
clear-cut decision. This is actually an area of labour law that
has been very well studied. There is a lot of good jurisprudence
that very clearly sets out the tests as to whether someone is
independent or dependent.
For the sake of the 5,000 rural route mail couriers in Canada, I
would urge all members to please have a good look at these
rulings and see for themselves if it is not fair.
I would remind members that this is really a rural-urban issue.
These people are being disadvantaged because they live in rural
Canada. A disproportionate number of them are women. Some of
them are working off the farm trying to get some supplementary
income for their family. The going rate for a mail delivery
person living within the city limits of Winnipeg or Toronto is
$17 or $18 an hour, plus benefits. Because these rural route
couriers live outside the perimeter highway they are at $6.86,
lower than minimum wage with absolutely no benefits.
How do we defend that in this day and age? There is no
justification whatsoever, certainly not for financial reasons. If
we were going to conduct ourselves in that manner then why would
we not put kids back in the mines? They would be cheaper than
putting miners down there.
We have to pay miners $25 an hour. Maybe we could get some 12
year old to crawl through the cracks with a fuse between his
teeth like they did in the old days. That is obviously taking
examples to a ridiculous end.
1345
Money is not justification for denying people basic civil
rights. Organizing a union or bargaining collectively is a basic
right in this country. It is the only way we have managed to
elevate our standards for working people over the last many
years. Everyone agrees, our government agrees and states
publicly that it is in favour of free collective bargaining.
Here is the opportunity. This is our chance to demonstrate that
we really do care about the freedom of workers to join and to
form unions.
One of the reservations I have and the only reason I can give as
to why this matter was not resolved years ago is the terrible
hostility between the government and the union representing
postal workers. We should not let this group of workers suffer
just because of management's inability to get along with its own
workforce. That is clearly a poisonous environment.
Nothing in my bill would automatically tie the rural route mail
couriers to the Canadian Union of Postal Workers. Who is to say
they will join that union? Who is to say they will join a union
at all? They would just have the right to bargain collectively
and they would have recourse to the Canada Labour Code like all
other Canadian workers enjoy.
This issue has gained broad public interest and broad public
support. There was a one hour special on one of the TV news
magazine programs. There have been numerous articles in
newspapers and magazines.
This group of rural route couriers has been very active
politically. I would think that virtually everybody in this
House has received some communication from the RRMCs trying to
explain the basic fairness of their issue. It has been a long
lobbying effort, 10 years long. These people have waited long
enough to exercise the same rights that all other working people
enjoy.
I would hope that there is broad support from other members in
the House. I have canvassed most of the opposition parties and
they seem interested in extending this kind of right. There is
nothing more noble that we can do as parliamentarians than to
extend rights and to expand the rights of Canadians so that we
all enjoy and benefit equally from the protections in this case
of the Canada Labour Code for employees.
Ms. Carolyn Parrish (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
before I get into my prepared notes, I would like to do as the
member opposite suggested and share with the House a few court
decisions on this very subject. The courts have already ruled on
the compliance of section 13(5) of the Canada Post Corporation Act
with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
On August 3, 1989 the federal court trial division found section
13(5) did not contravene the equality provisions of section 15.1
of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms on the basis of
occupational status.
On May 29, 1990 the federal court trial division found the
allegation that section 13(5) creates discrimination on the basis
of gender was frivolous. The court also found there were no
grounds for a claim of discrimination on the basis of
differential treatment of rural and urban residents.
On February 1, 1999 the U.S. National Administration Office,
responding to a NAFTA challenge issued by the Canadian Union of
Postal Workers on behalf of rural route contractors, rejected a
claim that rural route contractors should become employees.
Both national and international tribunals have found no fault
with the independent status of rural route contractors under the
Canada Post Corporation Act. The member for Winnipeg Centre
should take note of these judgments to fully comprehend the
issue.
In 1981 parliament created Canada Post to ensure that all
Canadians, wherever they lived, would receive reliable and
affordable postal service. In several ways the enduring
contribution of independent contractors has helped Canada Post
achieve this crucial goal. However, the bill we have before us
today could easily compromise the provision of good and
affordable postal service to rural Canada. Affordable is the key
word.
Canada Post's ability to use contractors for the delivery of
mail has made reliable, affordable postal service possible.
Nowhere is this more true than in rural Canada.
With a sparse population spread over one of the largest countries
in the world, providing a postal service to all Canadians has
always been quite a challenge. It is thanks to the ingenuity,
persistence and resourcefulness of independent mail contractors
that the many obstacles to providing universal postal service in
Canada have been overcome. We still need their dedicated service
if we are to maintain the quality of service rural Canadians
deserve.
1350
We have to consider what the proposed amendment of the member
for Winnipeg Centre does for Canadians. Does it improve service?
Not at all. Will rural Canadians get their mail any faster as a
result of this change? No they will not. Independent
contractors have always provided excellent service to Canada Post
customers and they will continue to do so.
The member's reference to hostility also catches me a little by
surprise. Both the minister and I have met with representatives
of the rural contractors on four occasions in the last year. The
discussions have been very amicable and are producing very good
results. Canada Post unions may benefit however from a few
thousand more members who would pay dues but there is no benefit
to individual Canadians in the hon. member's bill.
The government believes in creating opportunities for all
Canadians as does Canada Post. The opportunity to work as a mail
contractor has benefited countless generations of rural Canadians
who have often needed to supplement their incomes. The member
for Winnipeg Centre wants to put an end to all that. I do not
think rural Canadians want to see these contracting opportunities
simply vanish.
There is a competitive tendering process that gives rural
Canadians the opportunity to perform meaningful work at a fair
value. In parts of the country with no nearby industrial or
urban area, the chance to have a turn at a decent paying job
means a great deal. That chance vanishes once a system is
created that only benefits a few to the detriment of many. I
find it surprising the hon. member supports a proposal that may
well translate into real losses for those Canadians who most
deserve and need those income opportunities.
The quality of service rural Canadians have enjoyed for
generations and continue to expect is a direct outcome of the
competitive bidding process which attracts the most motivated and
enterprising people.
The member for Winnipeg Centre wants everyone to believe that
rural route contractors are all overworked, underpaid and
underappreciated. Simple facts reveal the contrary.
The dedicated men and women who deliver mail throughout rural
Canada are all compensated at a fair market value. The majority
of contractors often need less than six or even four hours to
complete their route assignments leaving ample time for other
gainful pursuits. This work is mostly part time and that fact is
consistently ignored.
Most important, rural mail contractors in Canada Post are
appreciated and recognized for the immense value of the service
they provide. In wanting to preserve that tradition of good
service, Canada Post is introducing meaningful ways to improve
the fair and equitable treatment of all contractors. All rural
routes will be contracted on an individual basis. Previous
experience coupled with good performance will be regularly
considered upon renewal. This will promote the sustained quality
of service for rural customers while rewarding the hard work of
dedicated mail contractors.
Canada Post will rigorously ensure that the tendering process is
accepted as fair and competitive by all participants.
Legislation is not the best way to improve Canada Post's
relationship with its independent mail contractors. The
previously cited examples of Canada Post's efforts demonstrate
that immediate improvement is achievable. Moreover, these
changes represent a genuine effort to make co-operation a
keystone of the relationship between Canada Post and its mail
contractors.
When Canada Post Corporation was created in 1981 through a
widely supported act of parliament, it was made clear that Canada
Post was to operate like a business. To this day the corporation
continues to have the important public mandate of providing
postal service to millions of addresses while keeping letter mail
rate increases below the rate of inflation. To achieve this
mandate, it was and continues to be understood that Canada Post
needs to manage its expenses just like a business does.
The financially responsible management of Canada Post has meant
taxpayers have not had to subsidize their post office since 1988.
By recording modest profits over recent years, Canada Post has
been able to balance the financing of its operations with the
need to invest in the future but it is still a precarious
balance. The fact is that 99 cents of every dollar Canada Post
earns must be spent on the annual cost of operations. With this
little room to explore its new direction such as that proposed by
this bill, the arguments for the prudent management of costs ring
as true today as they did in 1981.
This debate cannot ignore the mandate imposed on Canada Post by
the Canada Post Corporation Act. No other delivery company is
legally required to offer affordable uniform service in every
corner of the nation while maintaining financial
self-sufficiency. Canada Post has been able to meet this
challenge. The hon. member wants to tinker with the act but he
is not prepared to acknowledge the consequences of his tinkering.
1355
Contractors are naturally independent. They are entrepreneurs
and as such, assume a degree of risk in deciding whether or not
to engage in a certain commercial activity. Although they depend
on contracts to earn revenue, they realize that the source of the
revenue is not indefinitely fixed and they certainly have the
freedom to seek revenue from other sources. As small business
operators they can make full use of tax advantages not available
to employees.
To look further at the importance of the independence of rural
mail contractors, I am reminded of the explanation offered by one
of my hon. colleagues opposite. It may have been the hon. member
for Tobique—Mactaquac. If so, he is to be congratulated. If I
recall, his words were: “The nature of this change would remove
some of the flexibility for both parties to negotiate an
arrangement particularly suited to each individual contractor”.
An astute observation.
Every mail contractor faces many challenges in providing
effective mail delivery within his or her territory. Therefore,
each contract must recognize these unique and varying factors.
Imagine the burden of negotiating a global agreement that
effectively addressed the regional complexities of all the
delivery routes. The cost of administering such a process would
be considerably higher than those of a competitive bidding
process that takes into account the needs of individual
contractors.
When we debate the status of mail contractors, we are not only
talking about the men and women who deliver mail along Canada's
rural routes. Canada Post mail contractors provide air freight
services, expedited parcel services, highway transport and many
other services that are essential to moving the mail in Canada.
All of these contractors fall within the scope of section 13(5).
Alarmingly the sponsor of this bill seems to have missed or
ignored the fact that eliminating section 13(5) has far greater
implications than changing the status of rural route contractors.
Canada Post has over 7,000 contracts for the delivery of mail.
It simply cannot afford to take on thousands of new permanent
employees as part of some union membership drive. The numbers
speak for themselves.
Canada Post has achieved a measure of financial health which is
utterly dependent on a very prudent cost management formula.
Identically, the formula for Canada Post's long term viability
contained in the recently announced financial framework of the
corporation depends on sound financial management. We must stay
the course if Canada Post is to continue giving Canadians the
service they expect at a price they can afford.
Canada Post must preserve a tradition of service that has
benefited rural Canadians for so long. At the same time it must
ensure that good affordable service to all Canadians remains a
priority. To accomplish this, competing interests must be
balanced and the Canada Post Corporation Act does that very well.
Let us not interfere with the success of Canada Post. It has
had a fulfilling, challenging career. It is doing a very
effective job and I think we should leave sleeping dogs lie.
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased that the hon. member for Winnipeg Centre has brought this
issue to a debate. It is good because it has focused on certain
things that ought to have been focused on for quite some time.
It is not a new idea. It has been around for a long time. The
bill does focus our attention on an issue that is rather
significant.
I want to address the contracting procedure that is engaged in
by Canada Post. The hon. parliamentary secretary gave a rather
well reasoned speech this afternoon but avoided some of the
problems that exist within the contracting procedure itself.
I have before me an affidavit sworn before a notary public in
Alberta. I want to read part of it. It deals with the very issue
I am talking about, the contracting procedure. It reads in part:
In April of 1996, I knew my contract with Canada Post Corporation
would be expiring on June 30th. As I had done in the past, I
decided to phone Contracting Services in Edmonton to see what
they were going to do. I was hoping, as they had done in the
past, just extend or renew it again.
I was talking to Lee Alexander. He asked me how long have I had
the contract. I told him ten years. He then said they would
have to tender out this route as a matter of course to show the
public that I did not own it permanently. He told me to bid the
exact amount I was being paid at the time and I would get it back
for another five years.
After the tendering process was closed, I received a phone call
from Lee Alexander. He said there were bids received lower than
the one I submitted and would I drop my price to get the contract
back?
I asked him how much was the lowest bid. He said they don't
release that information. He again asked if I would go down or
lose the contract. I said I could if I had to, but by how much
would I have to down? Five hundred dollars? He said no, go down
much more. I kept dropping and dropping until he finally said
“okay, that's enough”. I ended up taking a cut of $5,077.08
per annum to keep my job.
1400
It is scandalous to treat people like that, but that is what
happened.
The RRMCs is a reliable, resourceful, friendly and independent
group of people. I admire these couriers. Our mail is delivered
by a rural route mail courier, a wonderful person. They love
freedom. They love enterprise. This lady loves to be
independent and I agree. I am an entrepreneur and enjoy that
freedom and independence. I believe they have been treated
shabbily. In some cases I dare say the treatment has been
disgraceful.
The question now before us is: Will eliminating subsection
13(5) of the Canada Postal Corporation Act be the best response
to the problem? Can the problem be resolved? Of course it can.
I clearly understand the frustration and the anger of the RRMCs.
No one should be treated as some of them have been treated. I am
not suggesting they have all been treated this way. I do not
know, but I know that some of them have been treated very badly.
The contracts were awarded and then negotiated after they were
awarded. Mr. Speaker, you have been a businessman for many
years. Many of us have been in business. We do not negotiate
contracts after they are awarded. We negotiate them before.
The process was secret. In this case the particular mail
courier was told there was another bid. He was not told how much
that bid was or whether there really was a bid. He does not know
to this day whether there really was a bid or how much it was. He
was simply told to drop his price. When it was not enough he was
told to drop it a little more. It was not an isolated case. I
have only the one affidavit, but a number of them have told me
that this is the situation.
Pressure was exerted to lower the bid. Conditions, or whatever
else the supervisor wanted, became negotiable items after the
contract was signed. Some couriers were coerced into submitting
a tender they felt was unreasonable, but due to personal
conditions or requirements they went along with it. In some
cases whole lifestyles had to be changed.
The playing field was unfair, capricious, unstable and often
unreasonable. A question has to be asked in this regard. If it
was so bad why did they stay? I think one of the reasons was
that for them it was a lifestyle, something the family was used
to, a second income or a variety of indications.
The issue is not whether it is a second income or whether it is
subsidiary to something else. The question is whether the
contract is fair, honest and above board, and does everyone know
what are the conditions. That is the principal issue.
They stayed because it gave them flexibility. They did not have
to punch a clock. They did not have to do things exactly the way
someone else told them to. They could exercise their own
initiatives and resourcefulness in applying their own
innovations. Many of them, I suggest all of them, liked their
neighbours and the social contact as they went from delivery post
to delivery post. They were proud and they still are.
They say with pride that the mail must go through no matter what
the weather or road conditions. They are proud to live by that.
To overcome these problems is a challenge to them and they like
that. I commend them for it and have great respect for them.
Repealing subsection 13(5) of the Canada Post Corporation Act
would eliminate the quality of independence of the entrepreneur.
They would become employees.
1405
It would take away the flexibility these people enjoy today both
on the RRMC side and on the Canada Post side. Clearly it would
do away with that. It would do away with a way of life. It
would become a job. It would take away their sense of personal
freedom, flexibility and opportunity to exercise their
initiative, their innovativeness and their resourcefulness. It
would make them employees, not contractors or entrepreneurs.
What could be proposed as an alternative to eliminating section
13(5)? Clearly it is better to do something else than to
eliminate that clause. The hon. parliamentary secretary said
that removing that clause would apply to a lot more than just the
RRMCs. It would apply to a whole host of other contractors doing
business with Canada Post.
What needs to happen is that the contracting procedure must be
changed. It has to become fair, open and transparent. Everybody
should understand before they bid what they are bidding on. The
bidding should be open and then on the day the contracts are to
be awarded or opened everybody would know exactly what bids are
on the table and what the conditions are. Then they could move
ahead. All coercion must be removed. There should be absolutely
no way in which the bidding procedure could be interfered with by
some kind of a supervisor.
There is some indication there is a movement in that direction.
I have a letter from the hon. André Ouellet, chairman of Canada
Post, in which he indicates clearly some of the things that have
been done. It does not go far enough. He is moving in some
directions but not nearly adequately in my opinion.
Unless Canada Post changes and implements a whole new
contracting procedure and gets a contract that is fair, open and
similar for couriers in a particular region, it will invite
continued pressure by the RRMCs to do the kind of thing the hon.
member for Winnipeg Centre has presented to us. I do not believe
it is the best solution, but I fear that unless Canada Post has a
better relationship with its rural route mail couriers and gets
into a contracting procedure that is fair and honest, it will
simply invite more of this kind of thing.
There appears to be a movement toward solving some of the
contractual process problems. Let us not do this now and slam
the door shut before they have a chance to improve their
relations.
[Translation]
Mr. Ghislain Lebel (Chambly, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to
speak to this bill, which I am interested in because I am my
party's postal service and public works critic.
I listened very closely to the remarks of the member who
introduced this private bill. I also listened with great
interest to the remarks of the government member on the Standing
Committee on Public Works and Government Services.
Members on the other side of the House are naturally in favour
of any government initiative.
I recall that, not that long ago—in the spring, I think, or last
fall—our committee considered the renegotiation of the contracts
for the small postal outlets that have sprung up everywhere, in
drug stores, shopping centres or other small businesses.
When Canada Post Corporation launched this idea, it was hoping
to reduce its operating costs, generate additional profits and
provide work for the operators of postal outlets, but at the
lowest possible cost, so as to generate additional profits,
because otherwise Canada Post Corporation would have run these
postal outlets itself.
Unfortunately for Canada Post Corporation, and fortunately for
the operators of these small postal outlets, the profits
generated were higher than those initially estimated by the
corporation.
1410
When the contracts came to an end, the Canada Post Corporation
negotiated mercilessly with people, putting a gun to their heads
and saying “Take it or leave it. Sign here.” and their
commissions were cut. This is the cavalier behaviour of the
Canada Post Corporation.
Things are no different with rural mail delivery. As the member
said, a person buys a small car or truck to deliver mail in the
area. They collect their mail in the morning at the central
post office; if the person sorting the mail is sick and could
not sort the mail the day before, the independent mail delivery
person will do it.
In winter snow storms, this is the person who takes out his
shovel and clears the snow in order to get to people's
mailboxes. It is wrong, as the party in power is claiming, to
say that these people are independent.
And to hide all the time behind legalistic reasoning like that
cited by the representative of the party in power is sad and
unfortunate, I find. These people are working for less than the
minimum wage in their respective regions, it is a fact. This is
abusing people.
I think the charter of rights and freedoms so often cited here
in Canada establishes the freedom of association. Freedom of
association is the rule. There must be as few exclusions and
exceptions to the rule as possible.
But every time the government is involved directly, through a
crown corporation or in any way in confrontation with groups
that may make a claim, such as the RCMP or the letter carriers
at the moment, the people delivering rural mail, it wastes no
time breaking the rule of freedom of association.
It thumbs its nose at its own charter in prohibiting collective
bargaining just so that the Canada Post Corporation can pay it
another $200 million annually in net benefits that it gives back
to the government, which claims the corporation owes it money
from back when it was not breaking even.
The government did invest money. Now it wants to recover that
money but, true to its ways, the government will not take it off
the earnings of its senior officials, or that of CPC chairman
André Ouellet or his directors and deputy directors, but from
those as the lower end of the pay scale, who walk in the snow to
deliver parcels and letters to mailboxes. The government is
making them pay for the mismanagement that occurred in previous
years.
I cannot accept that. It is one thing to be partisan, to do
one's utmost to support one's party—and the member opposite is
doing a good job at that—but one must still have some moral
principles.
Regardless of our political allegiance, when people are forced
to slave away for less than minimum wage, partisanship is no
longer acceptable. This issue has to do with dignity, and we
must allow these people to preserve their dignity.
I was floored to hear the Reform Party member, whom I respect,
say “We will break the contractual relationship that exists
between Canada Post and contract employees'.? That relationship
was prescribed by the act. They did not choose it, they did not
want it. It was imposed on them by the act.
Today, those who deliver our mail are asking us to help them. I
think we have a duty to do so. It would be too simple, as a
governing party or a political party, to stay away from
society's problems, to not face these problems, to hide behind
the rulings of the Federal Court of Appeal or of any other
court.
1415
I think the government is missing a prime opportunity to give
some dignity back to these contractors who no longer want to
remain independent.
I have taken part in such negotiations. Someone will buy a small
vehicle in order to get a contract. When the contract is about
to expire, the local or regional postmaster says “You know, you
have some competition. A few people have called us this year”.
That person is still making payments on the vehicle and the
contract is coming to an end. If that person does not get the
next contract, he or she may get stuck with the truck or car
still being paid for. So that person is told to make a
reasonable bid.
Year after year, contract after contract, this poor person has
to submit lower and lower bids. Such behaviour is unworthy of a
representative of the Canada Post Corporation, which claims to
be so honest and great. Wanting to make a profit on the backs of
poor workers is despicable.
Personally, I will wholeheartedly support, as my party will, the
bill introduced by the hon. member. I urge the members opposite
to show some mercy, to rise above party politics and to try to
imagine what it is like to work hard and still have trouble
earning a living. Not everyone earns as much as federal
ministers do and gets to travel anywhere in the world whenever
he or she feels like it. There are people who are hurting in
their ridings.
The Reform Party suggests that the existing contracts be
cancelled. This is total nonsense.
I remember that the members of the Reform Party opposed a
measure limiting to three months of interest the penalty imposed
by the lender when someone wants to renegotiate or pay off his
or her mortgage before it was up.
They opposed it as though all Western farmers who owed money on
machinery, land or farms were so rich that they did not care
about paying the big penalties imposed on them when they wanted
to renegotiate or pay off mortgages or loans before they were
up. Only the Reform Party could oppose such a measure. As if all
Western farmers were millionaires.
Then they turn around and describe the hardship suffered by
Western farmers, saying how sad it is when grain prices drop.
However, when the time came to help the farmers through modest
private members' bills like that one, Reform was always the
first to oppose them.
I say to the hon. member who introduced the bill that he can
count on my support and on the support of my party. I hope that,
at some point, the people across will see the light and
understand that they cannot act as if their party were the only
one on the face of the earth.
[English]
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Tobique—Mactaquac, PC): Mr. Speaker,
I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak to Bill C-238,
which involves private mail contractors.
I have been involved with this issue almost from the day I was
elected two and a half years ago. I have met with and discussed
this issue with representatives of the Canadian Union of Postal
Workers, the Organization of Rural Route Mail Couriers and Canada
Post Corporation itself. In addition, as a beneficiary of daily
rural mail delivery, this is an issue that concerns me
personally.
Canada Post became a crown corporation in 1981 by means of the
Canada Post Corporation Act, and as such, its labour practices
were no longer governed by the Public Service Staff Relations Act
but by the Canada Labour Code which allows dependent contractors
to unionize, something not provided for by the Public Service
Staff Relations Act.
Subsection 13(5) of the Canada Post Corporation Act provides an
exemption to subsection 3(1) of the Canada Labour Code that deems
mail contractors, including rural route mail couriers, not to be
dependent contractors.
In 1981, under the guidance of the former postmaster, and at
that time Progressive Conservative postal critic John Fraser, our
caucus voted to support subsection 13(5) for a number of reasons.
First, this provision continued the historical relationship that
Canada Post has always had with its mail contractors.
1420
Second, it was felt that changing that relationship could
potentially increase the operating costs of the corporation
substantially with no corresponding improvement in service levels
to the public.
Third, the nature of this change would have removed some of the
flexibility for both parties to negotiate an arrangement
particularly suited for each individual contractor. For example,
under the current arrangement, contractors have the ability to
subcontract while employees do not.
Finally, this arrangement kept Canada Post on a level footing
with many private sector companies who also use private
contractors for their own deliveries.
For these reasons, our party continues to support subsection
13(5) of the Canada Post Corporation Act, and that is why we
cannot support the bill.
That does not mean, however, that we are indifferent to the
problems faced by private mail contractors in their dealings with
Canada Post. In many conversations I have had with individual
contractors, with representatives from the Organization of Rural
Route Mail Couriers, CUPW and with some Canada Post employees, I
have heard many horror stories about the contracting practices of
the post office.
For example, at one point it was common practice that when a
delivery contract was up for renewal, a Canada Post employee
would phone up the contractor and tell them that they had
received a bid from another source that was thousands of dollars
less than what the contractor was currently being paid. Because
Canada Post operates a closed bidding system, there was no way
for the contractor to verify the claim of the postal
representative. The contractor would then be faced with a
difficult decision: undercut his or her own price by several
thousand dollars or else lose the contract.
These and other bad faith practices by the post office have led
others and myself into discussions with Canada Post. As a result
of complaints from contractors and others acting on their behalf,
the post office has introduced a series of new measures that I
hope will alleviate a great number of the difficulties
contractors have had in the past.
These include the following: one, rural routes will be
contracted on an individual contractor basis; two, contractors
who in turn subcontract out their routes at a reduced price,
known as master contractors, will no longer be eligible to renew
their rural contract; three, if a master contractor previously
held the route, the previous employee or the subcontractor
actually performing the work will be the first potential supplier
offered the contract at renewal; four, rural contracts will be
issued for five years with a five year renewal option based on
satisfactory performance and tendered after ten years; five, a
negotiated adjustment will be included for the five year renewal
option to ensure that market conditions, such as inflation, are
considered; six, a quality and performance component will be
included in the contract renewal and awarding processes to
recognize the past performance of incumbent contractors; and
seven, the evaluation of tenders will be based on criteria such
as experience, service performance, reliability, image and cost.
In addition, when contracts are up for bids, Canada Post will
make contractors aware of the specifications of the routes they
will be performing, such as the number of points of call, daily
kilometres, number of stops for personal contact items and the
amount of ad-mail they can expect to deliver. These numbers will
be updated annually or more frequently if a significant change
occurs and contractors will be compensated for these changes.
The post office has also prepared a handbook or what it calls a
delivery reference manual for its mail contractors. The purpose
of the manual is to provide assistance and guidance with a
reference book and a phone directory of key individuals at Canada
Post whom they can call when a problem arises. In conjunction
with this, local supervisors and postmasters will be provided
with an operator's handbook and support training material to
assist them in working with contractors.
These measures probably will not prevent disputes from arising.
They probably will not ensure that all contractors will be
treated fairly and honestly by Canada Post employees at all
times. However, I feel that the changes announced will bring
much greater fairness and openness to the relationship between
rural mail contractors and the post office.
I continue to work with and listen to rural mail contractors to
ensure that they are treated fairly and that Canada Post deals
with problems that arise in a timely and equitable manner.
I am a person who has been in the contracting business for over
22 years. I have bid on a lot of contracts for the federal
government.
1425
On every contract on which I bid it never meant that I became an
employee of the government. I was on my own. I was the employer
and the people I hired to help me perform that contract were my
employees.
I understand the intent of the rural mail couriers, but when
they are under contract they are not employees. They cannot
benefit from sick leave, vacations, and all that they would
encounter. If they want to become full time employees of Canada
Post, they should apply for a job when a job opens up. Until that
job becomes available, they are contractors.
When a bid comes up, it is up to them to decide if they want to
bid on the contract or not. If they are going to bid on a
contract to lose money, that is their own problem. As a
contractor myself, I never bid on a contract to lose money.
I sympathize with the rural mail couriers, but they have to
understand that they are contractors and not employees of Canada
Post. When it comes to the rural routes, if all those people
became employees of Canada Post, imagine how much it would cost
Canada Post Corporation. We would not be getting better service.
For all the money it would cost Canada Post, we would be getting
the same service, not better service. This is the taxpayers'
money so let us put the money in a good place.
I hope that the rural mail couriers will understand that when we
were in power we were the ones who put in section 13(5) to
protect them and Canada Post employees at the same time. As I
told many people in the mailing industry and even Canada Post
itself, I will continue to support section 13(5).
Having said that, it is a good private member's bill and I have
the greatest respect for the hon. member from the NDP, but I just
cannot support this private member's bill.
Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, very simply, in the time that is left, while I applaud
the initiative of the hon. member for Winnipeg Centre, his bill
certainly does not work as intended.
The bill proposes to eliminate section 13(5) in order to put the
independent mail contractors in the union. However, the
essential words of that clause are “a mail contractor is deemed
not to be a dependent contractor or an employee”. We can
substitute “mail contractor” for “independent contractor is
deemed not to be a dependent contractor”.
If we eliminate this section, it will not change anything. It is
one of these sections that get into legislation every now and
then for political reasons. In fact, Canada Post, whether or not
that section exists, will retain the right to hire independent
contractors as it does now and as it will in the future. While I
applaud the hon. member's good intentions, I assure him that his
bill will not achieve what he is setting out to do.
I will say, however, that I am a great supporter of private
members' business and I am very glad that the hon. member brought
this bill forward. As the member for Kelowna said, there is no
doubt there are grave injustices being done in the way contracts
are being negotiated with our rural mail carriers.
The real problem is not a matter of whether they are in or out
of a union. The real problem is with Canada Post itself. It is
a body that is neither fish nor fowl. It is not a business, yet
it is an arm of government. If it conducted itself as a
business, indeed if we privatized Canada Post, it would have to
conduct good business practices in a spirit of transparency that
does not exist now. We cannot see how Canada Post operates. We
would find that it would have to bend to good market practices
and I would expect that it would negotiate contracts with these
rural mail carriers in a decent and orderly manner.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The time provided
for the consideration of private members' business has now
expired and the order is dropped to the bottom of the order of
precedence on the order paper.
It being 2.30 p.m., the House stands adjourned until Monday,
November 15, 1999 at 11 a.m., pursuant to Standing Orders 28(2)
and 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 2.30 p.m.)