36th Parliament, 2nd Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 122
CONTENTS
Tuesday, September 26, 2000
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
1005
| GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL FISCAL ARRANGEMENTS ACT
|
| Bill C-497. Introduction and first reading
|
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
| PETITIONS
|
| Treasury Board
|
| Mr. Mac Harb |
| St. Lawrence River Bank Erosion
|
| Mr. Gérard Asselin |
1010
| Health Care
|
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
| Organ Transplants
|
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
| Health Care
|
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| MANITOBA CLAIM SETTLEMENTS IMPLEMENTATION ACT
|
| Bill C-14. Report Stage
|
| Speaker's Ruling
|
| The Deputy Speaker |
1015
| Motions in amendment
|
| Mr. Claude Bachand |
| Motions Nos. 1, 2 and 3
|
| Hon. Raymond Chan |
| Motion No. 4
|
| BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| Motion
|
| MANITOBA CLAIM SETTLEMENTS IMPLEMENTATION ACT
|
| Bill C-14. Report stage
|
| Mr. Claude Bachand |
1020
1025
| Ms. Bev Desjarlais |
1030
1035
| Ms. Angela Vautour |
1040
| Mr. Derrek Konrad |
1045
1050
| Mr. John Finlay |
1055
| Mr. John Duncan |
1100
1105
| Division on Motion No. 1 deferred
|
| Division on Motion No. 3 deferred
|
| Motion No. 4 agreed to
|
| Division deferred
|
1110
| CRIMINAL CODE
|
| Bill C-17. Second reading
|
| Hon. Hedy Fry |
| Mr. John Maloney |
1115
1120
1125
| Mr. Randy White |
1130
1135
1140
1145
1150
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
1155
1200
| Ms. Bev Desjarlais |
1205
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
1210
1215
1220
1225
1230
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
1235
1240
| Mr. Dale Johnston |
1245
| Mr. Ken Epp |
1250
1255
1300
1305
| Mr. Dale Johnston |
1310
| Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
1315
| Mr. Dale Johnston |
1320
1325
1330
1335
| Mr. Darrel Stinson |
1340
| Mr. David Chatters |
1345
| Mr. Myron Thompson |
1350
1355
| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| THE PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
|
| Mr. Murray Calder |
| CHURCHES
|
| Mr. Philip Mayfield |
1400
| LIBERAL PARTY OF CANADA
|
| Mr. Denis Paradis |
| ANNE MONTMINY
|
| Mr. Clifford Lincoln |
| LARYSSA BISSENTHAL
|
| Mr. Ovid L. Jackson |
| SOFTWOOD LUMBER
|
| Mr. John Duncan |
| CANADIAN HOT AIR BALLOON CHAMPIONSHIP
|
| Mr. Claude Bachand |
| GARY O'DWYER
|
| Hon. Christine Stewart |
1405
| TAXATION
|
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
| CANADIAN ALLIANCE
|
| Ms. Eleni Bakopanos |
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Ms. Louise Hardy |
| ASBESTOS
|
| Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien |
| MERCAZ
|
| Mr. Irwin Cotler |
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
| Ms. Angela Vautour |
1410
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. John McKay |
| BRAIN TUMOUR FOUNDATION OF CANADA
|
| Hon. Andy Scott |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. Rick Casson |
| ATLANTIC CANADIANS
|
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
1415
| TAXATION
|
| Mr. Stockwell Day |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Stockwell Day |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Stockwell Day |
1420
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| YOUNG OFFENDERS ACT
|
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
1425
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| THE ENVIRONMENT
|
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Hon. David Anderson |
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
1430
| Hon. David Anderson |
| NATIONAL DEFENCE
|
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| FISHERIES
|
| Mr. John Cummins |
| Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal |
| Mr. John Cummins |
1435
| Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal |
| BUDGET SURPLUSES
|
| Mr. Yvan Loubier |
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
| Mr. Yvan Loubier |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| CORRECTIONAL SERVICE CANADA
|
| Mr. Stockwell Day |
| Hon. Lawrence MacAulay |
| Mr. Stockwell Day |
1440
| Hon. Lawrence MacAulay |
| TRANSPORTATION OF MOX
|
| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
| Hon. Ralph E. Goodale |
| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
| Hon. Ralph E. Goodale |
| CORRECTIONAL SERVICE CANADA
|
| Mr. Myron Thompson |
| Hon. Lawrence MacAulay |
| Mr. Paul Forseth |
1445
| Hon. Lawrence MacAulay |
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
| Mr. Paul Crête |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| YUGOSLAVIA
|
| Ms. Colleen Beaumier |
| Mr. Denis Paradis |
| HEALTH
|
| Ms. Val Meredith |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| Ms. Val Meredith |
1450
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| CHILD CARE
|
| Ms. Libby Davies |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Ms. Libby Davies |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| FUEL TAXES
|
| Right Hon. Joe Clark |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
1455
| Right Hon. Joe Clark |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| FOREST PRODUCTS
|
| Mr. Réginald Bélair |
| Hon. Ralph E. Goodale |
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Derrek Konrad |
| Hon. Robert D. Nault |
| GASOLINE PRICING
|
| Mr. Pierre Brien |
| Hon. Ralph E. Goodale |
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
1500
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| EDUCATION
|
| Mr. Jean Dubé |
| Hon. Lucienne Robillard |
| PENITENTIARIES
|
| Mr. John Nunziata |
| Hon. Lawrence MacAulay |
| PRESENCE IN GALLERY
|
| The Speaker |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
1505
| CRIMINAL CODE
|
| Bill C-17. Second reading
|
| Mr. David Chatters |
1510
| Mr. Jake E. Hoeppner |
| Mr. Darrel Stinson |
1515
| Mr. Ken Epp |
| Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
1520
1525
1530
1535
| Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
1540
1545
1550
1555
| Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
1600
1605
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
1610
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
1615
| Ms. Louise Hardy |
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
1620
1625
1630
| Mr. Jim Abbott |
1635
1640
| Mr. Rick Casson |
1645
| Mr. Werner Schmidt |
1650
1655
| Mr. Jim Abbott |
1700
| Mr. Jim Abbott |
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
1705
1710
1715
1720
| Mr. Maurice Vellacott |
1725
| Mr. Rick Casson |
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
1730
| Mr. David Chatters |
1735
1740
1745
1750
| Mr. Darrel Stinson |
1755
| Mr. Werner Schmidt |
1800
| Mr. Maurice Vellacott |
1805
1810
| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
| 1911 CENSUS RECORDS
|
| Motion
|
1835
1850
(Division 1387)
| Amendment agreed to
|
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| SUPPLY
|
| Allotted Day—Fuel Taxes
|
| Motion
|
1855
1905
(Division 1388)
| Amendment negatived
|
1915
(Division 1389)
| Motion negatived
|
| FINANCIAL CONSUMER AGENCY OF CANADA ACT
|
| Bill C-38. Second reading
|
1920
(Division 1390)
| Motion agreed to
|
| MANITOBA CLAIM SETTLEMENTS IMPLEMENTATION ACT
|
| Bill C-14. Report stage
|
(Division 1391)
| Motions Nos. 1 and 2 negatived
|
(Division 1392)
| Motion No. 3 negatived
|
1925
| Motion for concurrence
|
| Hon. Robert D. Nault |
(Division 1393)
| Motion agreed to
|
| ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
|
| CHST
|
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
1930
| Mr. Roy Cullen |
1935
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 122
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Tuesday, September 26, 2000
The House met at 10 a.m.
Prayers
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
1005
[English]
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have the honour to table, in both official languages, the
government's response to two petitions.
* * *
FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL FISCAL ARRANGEMENTS ACT
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP) moved
for leave to introduce Bill C-497, an act to amend the
Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act (prevention of private
hospitals).
She said: Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to introduce this bill
on the prevention of private hospitals for first reading. The
bill is in response to growing health care privatization and, in
particular, to the threats posed to universal public health care
by Alberta's bill 11.
The specific purpose of the bill is to control the entry of
private for profit hospitals into our public system. It amends
the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act to provide that
provinces be financially penalized if they allow public funds to
be used for the provision of insured services in private for
profit hospitals.
The bill ensures that the principles of medicare and the spirit
of the Canada Health Act are absolutely and unequivocally
reflected in the letter of the law and that the federal
government is equipped to respond immediately and effectively to
any attempt by a provincial government to permit private for
profit hospitals.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
PETITIONS
TREASURY BOARD
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, treasury
board employees and certain female dominated groups are receiving
pay equity adjustments as a result of the application of section
11 of the Canadian Human Rights Act.
As a result of this these petitioners are asking parliament to
empower and direct the treasury board to release funds allowing
the office of the auditor general to meet this obligation in a
manner that is consistent with the settlement made to affected
groups under treasury board.
[Translation]
ST. LAWRENCE RIVER BANK EROSION
Mr. Gérard Asselin (Charlevoix, BQ): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to
the standing orders, I have the honour to table in the House a
petition signed by a number of the constituents in the riding of
Charlevoix.
The bank erosion problem along the St. Lawrence River is
becoming more and more of a concern for the environment and for
public safety. The petitioners are calling upon parliament to
intervene in order to have the federal government delay no
further in restoring the bank protection program in order to
stop the erosion of these banks.
1010
[English]
HEALTH CARE
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to present yet another petition from
constituents about the critical state in our health care system
in Canada today.
This is part of a series of petitions whereby thousands and
thousands of Canadians have called upon the government to take
immediate action to ensure the complete, not partial,
restoration of transfer payments for health care, and to take
strict, serious and definite measures to prevent further
privatization of our health care services to ensure that the
principles of medicare and the spirit of the Canada Health Act
are alive and well and guide us for the future.
ORGAN TRANSPLANTS
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I have
the honour today to present two petitions. The first one deals
with the gathering of organs at death for transplant.
The petitioners make a very important point that the
unavailability of organs for transplant and the long wait needed
for transplant results in long periods of suffering and
compromised recoveries for transplant recipients.
The petitioners call upon the House to enact legislation to
allow for the automatic gathering of organs at death for
transplants.
HEALTH CARE
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my
second petition relates to our health care system. The
petitioners are concerned about the state of our health care
system.
They call upon the government to stop the for profit hospitals,
the privatization of our health care system, to restore, as has
been indicated already, the complete restoration of funding
necessary for a good health care system, to implement a national
home care program and a program for prescription drugs. This is
something that seriously affects many of our seniors and many
people on low and fixed incomes.
* * *
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I ask
that all questions be allowed to stand.
The Deputy Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Derek Lee: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
There have been discussions among all parties in the House and I
believe you would find consent for the following motion: That
the recorded divisions scheduled to take place today at the end
of government orders be taken today at 6.15 p.m.
The Deputy Speaker: For the clarification of the Chair,
does the hon. member mean the bells would ring at 6.15 p.m.?
Mr. Derek Lee: Mr. Speaker, if the divisions took place
at 6.15 p.m., I believe there would be a 15 minute bell. With the
lack of precision, I could withdraw my request for the consent
and the motion and raise them later.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
MANITOBA CLAIM SETTLEMENTS IMPLEMENTATION ACT
The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill C-14, an act
respecting an agreement with the Norway House Cree Nation for the
settlement of matters arising from the flooding of land, and
respecting the establishment of certain reserves in the province
of Manitoba, as reported (without amendment) from the committee.
SPEAKER'S RULING
The Deputy Speaker: There are four motions in
amendment standing on the notice paper for the report stage of
Bill C-14, an act respecting an agreement with the Norway House
Cree Nation for the settlement of matters arising from the
flooding of land, and respecting the establishment of certain
reserves in the province of Manitoba.
[Translation]
Motions Nos. 1 through 4 will be grouped for debate, but will be
voted on as follows:
a) the vote on Motion No. 1 will apply to Motion No. 2;
b) Motions Nos. 3 and 4 will be voted on separately.
I will now put Motions Nos. 1 through 4 to the House.
1015
MOTIONS IN AMENDMENT
Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): moved:
That Bill C-14, in Clause 6, be amended by replacing line 29 on
page 2 with the following:
That Bill C-14, in Clause 6, be amended by replacing line 48 on
page 2 with the following:
“only in accordance with the Agreement except in respect of any
treaty right or claim arising from such a right, including any
treaty right or claim arising from the Flood Agreement, in which
case the Flood Agreement shall prevail.”
That Bill C-14 be amended by adding after line 6 on page 3 the
following new clause:
“7.1 Nothing in this Act or in the Agreement shall be
interpreted as affecting, abrogating or derogating from the
existing aboriginal rights or the treaty rights of the first
nation or of any member of the first nation.”
Hon. Raymond Chan (on behalf of the Minister of Indian Affairs
and Northern Development) moved:
* * *
[English]
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
further to my remarks earlier and consistent with the
discussions among all parties in the House, I think you would
find consent for the following motion. I move:
That the recorded divisions scheduled to take place today at the
end of Government Orders be taken today at 6.15 p.m., with the
bells commencing at 6.15 p.m.
The Deputy Speaker: Does the hon. Parliamentary Secretary
to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons have the
unanimous consent of the House to propose the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Deputy Speaker: The House has heard the terms of the
motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to)
* * *
[Translation]
MANITOBA CLAIM SETTLEMENTS IMPLEMENTATION ACT
The House resumed consideration of Bill C-14, an act respecting
an agreement with the Norway House Cree Nation for the
settlement of matters arising from the flooding of land, and
respecting the establishment of certain reserves in the province
of Manitoba, as reported (without amendment) from the committee;
and of Motions Nos. 1 to 4.
Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it gives me
great pleasure today to speak to the bill concerning the Norway
House Cree.
This bill was debated at length in committee.
The motions we are considering today were suggested by a number
of aboriginal groups who would very much like to see the word
“right” included in the bill, and I will explain why.
When one person says to another “I have the right to do that”,
there is undoubtedly a law somewhere to back him up. There may
be a law, but there may also be court decisions. People before
me decided to clarify certain matters with the various courts.
Only then can anyone claim to have a right.
There is much talk of legal issues nowadays. Canada is facing
tremendous problems where its aboriginal peoples are concerned,
particularly with respect to the issue of rights.
I am one of those most frequently criticizing the government for
its lack of political courage. In other words, in managing the
native question, the government draws on legislation that is
over one hundred years old. The only way the government has
come up with to resolve the native issue is to cling to this law
and try to speed up negotiations on land claims and
self-government.
Some native people feel things are not moving fast enough.
Naturally, there are grey areas in this legislation. It is
really not surprising that a law dating back over one hundred
years is no longer up to date or applicable or is at least hard
to apply.
Native people were not satisfied with this law.
They launched appeals in the various courts. Naturally, a
number of these went as far as the supreme court, and this is
the subject of my remarks today. I know I have only ten
minutes, but there are a number of motions, and perhaps I will
be able to return to finish up on the legal course all of that
followed.
At the moment, things are happening at Burnt Church specifically
as the result of a decision by the supreme court, which
recognized certain native rights. It also recognized certain
government rights over resource protection and so on.
1020
There is often a problem when it comes to interpreting
supreme court decisions. Unfortunately, except for Bloc
Quebecois members, there are not many people who are siding with
the aboriginals and recognizing that they have certain rights.
This is why, when aboriginal groups appear before the standing
committee on aboriginal affairs to discuss a bill such as the
one before us, one of the first points they raise, one of their
primary concerns is precisely the respect for their rights,
including aboriginal rights.
This is why these motions are before us today.
As I said earlier, we must understand the whole legal process
and how aboriginal titles and aboriginal rights have changed. A
number of decisions deal with aboriginal rights, but a pioneer
in this area is definitely a Nisga'a named Frank Calder.
Incidentally, I take this opportunity to salute my Nisga'a
friends who may be listening to us, although it is rather early
in British Columbia.
Just last week, I travelled to the home of the Nisga'a people
for the inauguration of the new Nisga'a government building. It
was nice to see how proud the Nisga'a were to finally have a
building in which they will now be able to exercise a number of
rights which, until now, were not recognized as theirs.
There have been pioneers, not only regarding that building and
not just Frank Calder.
Frank Calder was not only the inspiration for the building but
also a landmark figure in creating a more precise
definition of what a native right is. He deserves credit for
this. The Calder decision dates back to 1973, when the courts
for the first time recognized the existence of aboriginal title
for the occupation, possession and use of ancestral lands. At
the time, I know that the government lawyers were saying “Hold
on now, there is another thing, the royal proclamation of 1763
in which His Majesty sent out the word direct from England that
the lands could not be taken possession of without agreements
with the aboriginal people”. The court went further than that,
however. It said that what was involved was something other
than the royal proclamation, something other than the treaties.
Even if there had been treaties, there were some rights that
perhaps were not included in them. This went beyond the Indian
Act, as I have already touched on briefly.
That statute dates back close to 120 years. Its application
today cannot be described as perfect. That is normal.
Societies change. In the last 120 years, both white and
aboriginal societies have changed. Imagine if we insisted here
in parliament on hanging on to 120-year old legislation in all of
the areas we deal with. This would, I think, be extremely
awkward and it would be very difficult to apply legislation now
that dates back 120 years.
The decision said that the royal proclamation of 1763 was not
the basis for a decision and that it was not a treaty matter.
It must be kept in mind that not all crown lands are covered by
treaties. The Indian Act was not the basis for a decision
either. The supreme court therefore found a concept: long-term
occupation.
A native nation had to be able to prove long-term occupation.
This is when discussion of an ancestral right from time
immemorial began. Indeed, the court also recognized that these
people were here before us and accordingly enjoyed specific
rights. The Calder decision started opening things up in this
regard, even though the supreme court did not define title as
such. It said proof had to be established of long-term
occupation, but that title certainly did exist. However, the
court did not define it more than that.
Matters had to wait until 1984 with the decision in Guerin.
This decision established that the government had a fiduciary
duty, that the native peoples enjoyed a special land entitlement
and that it was inalienable.
1025
Therefore, in another instance, the court recognized the
government's fiduciary right and its fiduciary duty.
This has caused many problems since then. I give as an example
the decision in Marshall and Burnt Church with all that is
happening there as a result at the moment. The government is
caught in a dichotomy, in a state of incoherence, where it is
obliged to defend Canada's interests. But it is a trustee and
must protect the interests of the native people. This situation
is causing some pretty significant problems.
Unfortunately, what we have seen in recent years is the
government focusing less on its fiduciary obligation and more
on its other obligations. This is one reason why the Department
of Fisheries and Oceans is now seizing lobster traps, taking the
view that the aboriginal fishers are completely in the wrong.
One day, we will have to find a way to reconcile the legal
concept and philosophy of the rights of whites with the rights
of aboriginals. This will take time.
I see you indicating that I have one minute left. I had
intended to speak a little longer, but as I said, I will come
back to this for the second group of motions.
In short, I hope that members will support the inclusion of the
issue of rights in the bill. This is important to aboriginals
and it costs nothing.
We will be told that it is included in section 35 of the
constitution—this is an argument the government often uses, and
it may be true—but what does it cost the government to include
this motion which the aboriginals really want to have? It
costs absolutely nothing.
I will be pleased to speak to this issue again for the
second group of motions.
[English]
Ms. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to be here today. We will be supporting the amendments
as noted in the order paper. The member from the Bloc and myself
both put in similar amendments to the bill with similar concerns
being the reasoning behind the amendments.
As the member from the Bloc indicated, these amendments do not
cause any greater cost to the Government of Canada, except maybe
the cost of honest to goodness intent to see whether or not the
government is truly committed to acknowledging the treaty rights
of aboriginal people.
These amendments were suggested by Chief Matthew Coon Come at
committee. At that time he was grand chief of the council of
Crees in Quebec. I want to take this opportunity to congratulate
Chief Coon Come on his election to grand chief of the Assembly of
First Nations.
We are at the stage of implementing the northern flood agreement
because the government has, for decades and decades, failed to
follow through on agreements reached with aboriginal people,
whether it be treaty agreements or otherwise. As a result we
have another piece of legislation before us to ease things along
and get things moving. There was never any intent from the
Norway House first nation or any other supporters of the bill
from the first nations side to abrogate any of their treaty
rights. That is why I think it is extremely important that we
ensure those rights are in the bill.
Clauses are common in many kinds of legislation. Section 35 of
the Constitution Act guarantees aboriginal and treaty rights.
Legally, no bill passed by parliament can violate these rights.
However, just to make sure there is no doubt, it is common to
include clauses like these to explicitly guarantee the status of
aboriginal and treaty rights. When we think about it, it is
common sense.
It avoids the costly legal fees that could be involved if first
nations or their members have to go to court to uphold section 35
rights.
1030
What we have seen in the past is that the action of the
government is to constantly take different groups to court to
fight for rights they already have. We are dealing with scarce
taxpayers' dollars, and for the government not to make an effort
to settle these disputes out of court and not to be serious in
their negotiations is quite unconscionable. Certainly in first
nations communities money can be better spent. I do not
understand it.
Including these amendments shows a commitment by the government
that it will make an effort to settle these if there is no intent
to take aboriginal people to court to uphold their treaty rights.
It is better to be clear that the aboriginal and treaty rights
are absolute rather than leave any possible doubt and have the
courts sort it out.
These amendments have broad support from the people who
supported Bill C-14, or as it was previously introduced, Bill
C-56, as well as from those who opposed it. One of the major
concerns raised by the opponents of the bill was that it might
undermine treaty rights conferred in the northern flood
agreement.
At this point I want to acknowledge that many people out there,
including a former Indian affairs minister, saw the northern
flood agreement as a modern treaty. As a result, there is real
concern that any change to that flood agreement will change those
treaty rights. It is extremely important that we ensure this is
not the case.
With regard to consultations with representatives from the Norway
House Cree Nation, the first nation this directly affects, the
government of Norway House does not intend that this bill will
change their treaty rights in any way, shape or form. Ensuring
that these amendments are in the bill solidifies that.
Those who worry that this bill might unintentionally affect
treaty rights also support the bill.
The people from Cross Lake First Nation, those most closely
related to the Norway House First Nation, certainly in an area
with a lot of familial ties over the years, do not support this
bill. They do not want this. They want to adhere to the northern
flood agreement as it was signed a number of years ago but never
adhered to. The people of Cross Lake First Nation have the right
to make that decision for themselves, just as the people of
Norway House have the right to make this decision for their first
nation.
I urge the members of the Liberal government to support these
amendments and make this bill acceptable to the people of Cross
Lake and others who are concerned about the treaty implications.
As parliamentarians we have a duty to uphold the constitution of
Canada and that includes aboriginal treaties under section 35. I
truly hope that the government will not vote against these
amendments because it will be a signal to aboriginal people that
the Liberal government does not respect their treaty rights.
I want to state again that our party will be supporting these
amendments and this bill. We have concerns. I was at committee
and listened to a number of concerns raised within the first
nations over the vote on this issue.
Quite frankly, I too have concerns over the conduct of some
officials of the department of Indian affairs. It left a
perception out there that things were not being done up front. I
was upset with the evasiveness of some of those officials who
spoke to the committee about this bill. At points I almost felt
like I was being misled as a member of the committee of the
House. I do not think this is appropriate for government
officials, but that is a problem with the department of Indian
affairs. It is not the problem with this bill and it does not
affect our support of the bill in any way. We can deal with
those things through other areas. I hope we will start to deal
with all first nations people in an upfront way.
It is clear to me too that the majority of the people of Norway
House support this agreement. There were questions. In most
agreements and discussions you have opposing sides. There were
those who did not support it, but the chief and council who were
representative of this bill and getting the message out there
were pretty much the same chief and council who were elected
after the vote had been taken. I accept that as an indication
that the majority of people of the Norway House Cree Nation
support the decision of the chief and council and support this
bill.
The bill has been a long time in reaching this stage. It has
been popping up since the time I came to the House of Commons in
1997.
It is time that we put this issue to rest for the people of
Norway House, but in doing so we must ensure that we do not risk
the treaty rights of first nations people.
1035
I also want to comment on one point from the committee, when I
think the House certainly failed first nations people and in
doing so failed all Canadians. There was an opportunity to take
this issue, the whole discussion on the bill and these concerns,
to the people most directly affected, the people of Cross Lake
and Norway House. The committee failed to take the committee
hearings to that area. As a result, there will always be some
misunderstanding and some feeling that they were not fairly
represented.
That is a small thing that committees of the House can do, to
take the issue to those most affected, and it is something we
should do. I want to voice my displeasure at the government,
quite frankly, because let us face it, the government controls
the committees. Let me point out that in the future maybe we can
avoid some of the situations we see ourselves in if the
government makes an effort to actually go to the people of Canada
to get their feelings. It should go to the first nations and let
them have a say on what is going to be affecting their lives.
[Translation]
Ms. Angela Vautour (Beauséjour—Petitcodiac, PC): Mr. Speaker, I
am pleased to rise to address the amendments to Bill C-14, an
act respecting an agreement with the Norway House Cree Nation
for the settlement of matters arising from the flooding of land,
and respecting the establishment of certain reserves in the
province of Manitoba.
This bill includes two parts. The first one deals with the
Norway House Cree Nation, while the second one seeks to
facilitate the implementation of the land claim agreements in
Manitoba, including the ones on future land claims.
Many aboriginals affected by this legislation were concerned
about their aboriginal and treaty rights.
The Manitoba northern flood agreement was signed in 1977 by
Manitoba, Manitoba Hydro and five first nations of the province.
That agreement was reached following the flooding of land used
by first nations. It listed the conditions for compensating
first nations affected by the flooding of their traditional
land. It is not for me to say whether this agreement is
considered to be a treaty, or if it will be in the future.
The first amendment seeks to protect treaty rights, should the
Manitoba northern flood agreement be considered to be a treaty
some day. The problem I see in supporting this amendment is that
it would protect any right or claim resulting from the
agreement. The key word here is the term right.
The word right is not defined in the Manitoba northern flood
agreement.
In this bill, this is not a problem, because there is a
definition of right or claim in the Manitoba northern flood
agreement. If we introduce the definition of this term, I
believe that would allow some new interpretations and would
broaden the scope of the bill.
Another amendment, the second one, also includes the terms
right and claim. Primarily, its intent is to ensure that
the Manitoba northern flood agreement continues to be the
document that takes precedence in compensating the Cree of
Norway House.
In this bill, the comprehensive implementation agreement would
also take precedence over claims by the Norway House Cree. With
the amendment, the Manitoba northern flood agreement would be
amended as far as rights and claims are concerned.
This therefore reinforces the protection of treaty rights and
the original conditions of the Manitoba northern flood
agreement.
I can understand the reasons for demanding protection of treaty
rights, as in the case of the first amendment, but I do have
difficulty with the idea of introducing a term that is not
defined. As I have said, the term right is not defined in the
Manitoba northern flood agreement.
[English]
Furthermore, the people of Norway House Cree Nation voted in a
referendum to accept the terms of the master implementation
agreement. While we heard from a number of concerned Norway
House members about the process used in the referendum and their
fears that they will lose rights afforded to them by the northern
flood agreement, the fact remains that treaty rights are
constitutionally protected.
Discussions about the accuracy of the referendum were never
completely explained, which means that one has to accept that the
people chose to accept a resolution to a claim that is more than
20 years old.
1040
It is the Norway House Cree Nation that should ultimately make
decisions regarding compensation for their flooded land. They
chose to accept the terms of the master implementation agreement
and, with the constitutionally protected treaty rights, they
should be in a position to finally realize the compensatory
benefits afforded to them by the northern flood agreement.
Amendment No. 3 would add another clause to the legislation dealing
with the Norway House Cree Nation and the master implementation
agreement they signed in December 1997. This amendment would
provide a security feature to the legislation to ensure that
nothing in the act or the master implementation agreement is
meant to “abrogate or derogate from the existing aboriginal
rights or treaty rights of the first nation”. That is a quote
from the amendment.
While this amendment has some merit since it is meant to protect
aboriginal rights, these rights are already protected in the
Canadian constitution. This legislation should be a positive
move for the Norway House Cree Nation. Their members voted to
accept the terms of the agreement and the chief has recognized
the benefits of the agreement for the band members.
The PC Party supports legislation that allows first nations to
become more self-reliant and financially independent. This
legislation does exactly that. It will provide funds to be
managed by a trust fund on behalf of the first nations. We
support the legislation because of the positive advantage it
provides to first nations in Manitoba but we do have reservations
regarding the amendments.
Mr. Derrek Konrad (Prince Albert, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I am glad to speak to Bill C-14, the Manitoba claim
settlements implementation act. I was in Manitoba when the dams
were being built. I was a surveyor and flew many miles over that
country in a helicopter on my way to and from work. It is an
interesting country and it was an interesting job.
Many aboriginal people in that area were deprived of some pretty
nice land, particularly along the river. It is good land, but
farther back it contains a lot of muskeg, so the land they lost
was among the best. This bill will bring some finality to the
issue and will put some money in their pockets so that they can
get on with their lives. It is important. Not only is it some
money, it is some land to make up for what they lost. It is land
of equal value. I see from the bill that it will take about four
times as much land to equal the value of what they did lose.
There were many questions raised by many people about the
process used to get approval for the flood agreement. Most of
those questions were never adequately answered. They were not
answered in the community or in committee. It seemed to me that
the Liberals spent a lot of time trying to hush up the issue and
hurry this bill through. They spent a lot more time on
procedural matters and objections to the list of witnesses that
many of us in the official opposition and other opposition
parties wanted to hear from.
We had more correspondence on this than anything I have seen
since I came to the House. Members of the committee received a
binder that is probably four inches thick and is filled with
letters, briefs and presentations that have been made on this
issue over the years. In the length of time we had to look at
this bill, it was impossible to do a proper assessment and
analysis of the entire situation. Also, the people most affected
by this legislation were never really heard from when it was
brought to parliament. That is not right.
The first agreement that was signed was so loose and open-ended
that it gave rise to absolutely every kind of interpretation. It
was not capable of being implemented due to its open-ended
nature. Simply to bring some closure to the matter, the
government trampled on the rights of a lot of people and
overlooked due process.
1045
People should not be deprived of their land without due process,
and once deprived through legislative means they need to be
adequately compensated. Those rights are available to all
Canadians under expropriation acts, whether provincial or
municipal. Certainly that right has to be there as well for
Canada's aboriginals. They simply cannot be deprived of land and
rights just because it happens to suit the political agenda of
the party in power at the time. We are not overly happy about
many of these things.
We notice the insertion of the word right. I am not sure,
given recent court decisions, that the insertion of this word
adds anything or that leaving it out will detract from anything.
To that extent I agree with my colleague from Churchill. She had
it about right there. The courts seem to be playing more and
more of a role. It seems the Canadian public, the Canadian
government and the Canadian taxpayer are being governed by our
courts, much more than by the people who were elected, not
appointed, to make the laws. We need to look after that.
Some of the questions I have about the transfer of land in fee
simple to the band concern private ownership. Let us remember
the bill has two parts. There is also a treaty land entitlement
part to the bill. I and my colleagues doubt
that any individuals will be able to exercise private property
rights over any of that land. It will have to be always dealt
with in common.
People who have appeared before our committee have said the lack
of private property rights by natives over aboriginal land is one
of the biggest barriers to economic development for those people,
not just as a group but as individuals. The head of the First
Nations Bank is one of those people. The head of the Business
Development Bank of Canada is another individual who believes
there need to be private property rights for individuals to make
any headway in society, and that the communal style of owning
property, which means lending institutions have no way to take
collateral, is one of the biggest drawbacks to economic
development for aboriginals.
These things were never addressed in the legislation. The
government had an opportunity to get to work on these types of
things.
The treaty land entitlement process does make up for shortfalls
in Indian reserves that were established and surveyed at the
times the treaties were signed, and it is a fairly generous
settlement at that. Individuals will not benefit from it; simply
bands will benefit. Many times that means the leadership gets
most of the benefit, not the band members.
I have had aboriginal people come to my office in the riding of
Prince Albert, I have had people telephone me at home, and I have
had people contacting me by phone, letter, e-mail, fax, or
whatever in my office in Ottawa, saying they want to be able to
exercise private property rights. They would love to get a
square mile of land somewhere, anywhere, maybe with some lumber
on it so that they could do some logging, build a home, start to
farm, or something like that.
Can they do that under the bill? Nothing doing. They are
absolutely kept out of the mainstream of the Canadian economy
because of legislation such as this and attitudes such as those
on the other side, which deny Indian people the same rights that
are available to every person in the House.
There needs to be a process to allow native people to take
possession of their hopes. I recently spoke to a man on a
reserve who had been given six months to get off the reserve and
out of the house he lived in. He had been married to an Indian
woman. The band said “We need this house for band members. You
are not a band member”. His wife had just died and he got a
letter from the band saying “You are out of here”. Is that the
way to treat Canadians, aboriginal or otherwise? I do not think
so.
The lack of rights available to people living on reserve is a
scandal and needs to be addressed.
While the bill does some good things locally for the people in
making redress for land taken from them, it is a far cry from the
kind of legislation we need to introduce to ensure that
aboriginal women have the protections they need.
1050
I am sure that woman would not have been happy to know her
husband was told “You are out of here”. Fortunately he had
daughters who were willing to look after him and took him in, but
here was a man who was capable of living independently. He was
not that old. He was forced to live with his children or else
leave his home and his friends. That just does not work.
Under the legislation the federal government will fund Indian
bands to undertake land selection studies. In Saskatchewan,
where the treaty land entitlement process has been in business
for some time, too many bands have been spending too much money
doing studies and not enough buying. If any farmer were to spend
that kind of money on studies, he long since would have been
into bankruptcy, out of business, and working for a living.
There needs to be some accountability for the money that is
transferred and held for these people. Certainly we will be
watching that. I am sure we will be taking phone calls on that
same issue over the years. We intend to form the government, and
we will be making certain that this money is well spent on behalf of
Canada's Indian people.
Mr. John Finlay (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Indian Affairs and Northern Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I have listened with great interest to my colleagues' comments.
Having worked with most of them on the aboriginal committee, I
know from whence they come and I know they are genuine in their
statements.
However, we are dealing with a separate piece of legislation that
has the purpose of making an agreement with the Norway House Cree
so that they can get on with the business of running their
community, of getting the land they are entitled to and the
compensation they have been denied by a long and cumbersome
process that started in 1977.
This is, in miniature, what my colleague from Saint-Jean talked
about regarding the Nass Valley. I too was there the week before
last to honour the opening of the new legislative building of the
Nisga'a, who worked for 120 years to get to that point.
The bill deals with an agreement made with the fourth of five
first nations affected by the Manitoba northern flood agreement.
The reason we have this agreement is that the other one does not
work very well, because it allows for the kind of thing my
colleagues across the hall have deplored. It allows for
confrontations in court. It is costly and inefficient.
In order to get around this stumbling block, the parties,
including Manitoba, Manitoba Hydro, Canada and the northern flood
committee, have come up with a way of negotiating an
implementation agreement with each first nation individually.
The first part of the bill deals with compensation for the
Norway House Cree Nation, which it is situated 450 kilometres north of
Winnipeg. There are over 5,000 members, and nearly 4,000 of them
reside on reserve. As my colleague from Prince Albert has said,
and he was involved in the surveying, the best land along the
rivers was flooded. These people are in need of land to
compensate for that loss at about four to one. As my colleague
from Churchill said, the chief and council have agreed with the
bill.
One of the reasons rights are not mentioned is to get around the
very problem of making this a treaty, which it is not, and
maintaining it as an agreement, which it is. This, in line with
“Gathering Strength”, our aboriginal action plan, moves the agenda
forward.
1055
If we accept this motion to add that word then we are back to
square one. We are back to pre-Royal Commission on Aboriginal
Peoples days. We are back to Chief Justice Hamilton's comments
about certainty in inalienable rights and aboriginal rights. If
they are not clearly defined we get into trouble. We are not
trying to define them in the bill. We are saying there is a
problem. These people deserve compensation. We will compensate
them according to the bill.
The second part of the bill affects more first nations,
particularly Manitoba first nations, potentially all Manitoba
first nations, in that it aims to facilitate the addition to
reserve commitments under a variety of existing and future
Manitoba claims settlements. While the most significant of these
commitments at present are to the 20 Manitoba first nations
covered by the 1997 Manitoba treaty land entitlement framework
agreement, other first nations in Manitoba will also derive
benefits under part 2, relative to other existing and future
settlements.
It is imperative, in order to move the agenda on, in order that
the first nations of Manitoba can get the support and the freedom
to act they need, that these amendments be defeated. If they are
not we will go back into a very murky situation that existed 22
years ago. That is not progress for the native people. It is
not progress for the government. It is not progress for the
country. It is a lack of progress.
There is no danger in this act to any first nations treaty
rights, aboriginal rights, inherent rights or any other rights.
The bill rights a wrong, an overdue delay in settlement with the
Norway House Cree. It makes further settlements with the other
bands in Manitoba much easier to accomplish because people have
to sit down and agree on what they need, how much they can have,
where the land is, add it to the reserve, et cetera. As Chief
Gosnell said in the Nass Valley, confrontation is not the way to
go. Consultation, agreements and negotiation are the way to go.
That is when everybody gets the most value for their efforts, the
government and the first nations. I urge the House to deny these
motions.
Mr. John Duncan (Vancouver Island North, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak
to Bill C-14. I was involved earlier in the agreements that
derived from the Manitoba flooding of the 1970s. In the last
parliament we had Bill C-36 dealing with the Split Lake Band,
Bill C-39 dealing with the York Factory Band, and Bill C-40
dealing with the Nelson House Band. This is now the fourth bill
dealing with five bands. We only have the Cross Lake Band that
is currently not addressed by new legislation and is still
subject to the Manitoba northern flood agreement of 1977.
Specifically Bill C-14 deals with Norway House. I had the
experience of going to Norway House in the summer of 1995 as part
of my party's task force on aboriginal affairs.
We were trying to develop policy at that time.
1100
I well remember the charter flight from Winnipeg to the
airport at Norway House. We had made arrangements previously
with some women from the Norway House community to meet us at the
airport. There were several members of parliament from my
caucus. The first words that came out of one of their mouths was
“Congratulations, you have now been at Norway House one more
time than our chief has this year”. That was actually the
forerunner and the first clear example in my mind of the way in
which aboriginal women were making decisions. When they are
dissatisfied with the way their community is being run, they will
do something about it. That is one memory that is etched in my
mind.
The 1977 Manitoba flood agreement was laced with problems. It
did not become a very good document to implement a lot of the
necessary things to address the huge displacement of community
lands. There were new hazards for residents of the communities
because of the change in the waters and water levels. Resources
were displaced. A whole new way of life had to be put in place
because the flooded lands had changed the way the water oriented
communities had operated up until that time. Clearly no one
could reasonably argue that compensation is not an important part
of this whole agreement.
We have supported all of the compensation agreements. We have
been very consistent in doing that in Bill C-36, Bill C-39, Bill
C-40 and once again today we are supporting Bill C-14. We have
actually debated this since June 1994. That was the first set of
debates.
I will just give an idea of what happened when the flooding
occurred on the Nelson and Churchill rivers along with the Lake
Winnipeg regulations project. Almost 5,000 hectares of reserve
land belonging to these five first nations were flooded as well
as over 200,000 hectares of non-reserve land that was
traditionally used for hunting and trapping.
In the 1970s when the flood agreement was put together, it was
very loosely worded. With these agreements now, not only is
implementation better served, but we have clearer questions of
how liability will be addressed. The project proponent, Manitoba
Hydro, now essentially has the ongoing and unanticipated future
liability. I think everyone would agree that is just and proper
as it is the major proponent for the project.
There are some interesting elements to these agreements. In
many ways we should be looking at these as enlightened things
that we can build into future agreements.
The fee simple lands that are being transferred are not
necessarily being transferred into typical reserve status.
This will give the bands a lot more flexibility and opportunity
to deal with those lands in a way that will not necessarily
involve all the bureaucracy of the department of Indian affairs.
1105
On the transfer of moneys, the compensation package, the moneys
are going into a trust arrangement that will necessarily have an
accountability function built in which I think is highly
appropriate. We know for example that under the Liberal
government the accumulated deficit of native bands across Canada
has gone from $130 million to over $300 million. That lack of
accountability is something to be avoided. This arrangement
avoids that lack of accountability.
Those are the main points I wanted to get across. A couple of
other things are worth pointing out.
The fee simple lands held by the respective native corporations
are held outside the normal encumbrances of the Indian Act. They
are also subject to property taxation. Any business originating
from these lands is also taxable. In addition, individual band
members may appeal under the Manitoba arbitration act if they are
unsatisfied with band decisions which affect them personally.
We have some new thinking here that is worth putting under a
microscope a few years down the road to see what real changes
it has brought about. My suspicion is that this will lead to
some good changes in the way governance is applied within these
communities.
I urge my colleagues to support this legislation.
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: Is the House ready for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Deputy Speaker: The question is on Motion No. 1. Is it the
pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Deputy Speaker: All those in favour of the motion will
please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Deputy Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Deputy Speaker: In my opinion the nays have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Deputy Speaker: The recorded division on Motion No. 1 stands
deferred. The division on this motion will also apply to Motion
No. 2.
The next question is on Motion No. 3. Is it the pleasure of the
House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Deputy Speaker: All those in favour of the motion will
please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Deputy Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Deputy Speaker: In my opinion the nays have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Deputy Speaker: The recorded division on Motion No. 3 stands
deferred.
The next question is on Motion No. 4. Is it the pleasure of the
House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Deputy Speaker: I declare Motion No.4 carried.
(Motion No. 4 agreed to)
The Deputy Speaker: The House will now proceed to the taking of
the deferred
recorded division at the report stage of the bill. Call in the
members.
And the division bells having rung:
The Deputy Speaker: The recorded division stands deferred until
6.15 p.m. this evening.
* * *
1110
[English]
CRIMINAL CODE
Hon. Hedy Fry (for the Minister of Justice) moved that
Bill C-17, an act to amend the criminal code (cruelty to animals,
disarming a peace officer and other amendments) and the Firearms
Act (technical amendments), be read the second time and referred
to a committee.
Mr. John Maloney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
it is a pleasure for me to speak to Bill C-17 which is an omnibus
package that proposes amendments in a number of areas of the
criminal code.
In a nutshell, these amendments will improve the criminal law in
a number of areas, such as tougher laws to protect animals from
cruelty, better protection for peace officers acting in the line
of duty, and improvements to respond to concerns from firearms
businesses with respect to the administration of the firearms
system. Other amendments will provide greater procedural
safeguards to persons with disabilities who are victims of sexual
exploitation.
[Translation]
I would now like to focus on the parts of the bill amending
certain current provisions of the criminal code having to do
with cruelty to animals. These amendments have attracted
considerable public interest and I will start with them.
[English]
For over 10 years humane societies have been asking ministers of
justice to improve and strengthen the law on cruelty to animals.
Humane societies are established by provincial legislation and
have the statutory mandate to prevent cruelty to animals, to
relieve animals in distress and to educate the public about
animal cruelty and welfare.
Many humane society officers are designated as peace officers
and have the power to investigate and lay charges of cruelty
under the criminal code. These are the organizations that are
largely responsible for administering the criminal law and
provincial laws in this area. These are the people who know when
the system is not working and they in fact told ministers of
justice for over 10 years that the system was not working as well
as it should.
Let us be clear from the start about what cruelty is. Cruelty is
about the infliction of unnecessary pain or suffering on animals.
It is the causing of avoidable pain, the causing of pain for no
reason or through extreme neglect. Society rightly abhors such
conduct. Who would choose to harm an animal if they did not have
to?
Cruelty to animals is not about the appropriate standard for
animal care in various specific contexts such as farming
practices or slaughter methods. These activities are directly
regulated by specific laws and regulations both provincially and
federally and are understood to fall outside the criminal law.
Our law recognizes that animals can be used for a variety of
purposes to satisfy certain human needs if they are treated
humanely and with respect at every stage. That is what Canadians
expect.
After reviewing this area of law, the minister and her
department consulted with the public and interested groups in
September 1998. We sought their views on the modernization and
strengthening of the current laws. The response was really quite
significant and took us all by surprise.
Thousands of Canadians wrote in and signed petitions telling us
that they wanted animal abuse treated more seriously. To this
day the Department of Justice continues to receive many letters
every week, sometimes hundreds, applauding the government
for introducing this bill.
I would also like to note that support for modernization and
tougher penalties came from national and provincial veterinary
associations and from many provincial attorneys general. Members
of the House may be interested to know that last November, just
weeks before the bill was introduced, the Ontario legislature
passed a resolution with all party support that urged this
government to strengthen our laws on animal cruelty, to do the
very thing that Bill C-17 does.
The Ontario government continues to be very interested in
stronger animal cruelty laws. As recently as last week Solicitor
General Tsubouchi, who had previously written to the minister and
urged the government to strengthen the animal cruelty laws,
continued to emphasize the need for stronger penalties against
cruelty to animals at the launch of the Ontario Society for the
Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Violence Prevention Week.
What has all these organizations and individuals concerned? If
I may, I will remind members of the House what cruelty is and how
it happens all too frequently in the country.
Across the country dogs have been beaten with hockey sticks and
golf clubs, thrown off balconies and dragged behind cars.
Cats have been mutilated, burned, tied to railroad tracks and
left for oncoming trains. Animals have been trained to be
aggressive and forced to fight each other to the death for
entertainment and economic profit. I need not horrify members
with further gory details.
1115
In some but by no means all cases, charges are laid. Even
where charges are laid, prosecutors often choose not to proceed
in all but the most extreme circumstances. In the rare cases
where a conviction is obtained, the penalties range from a small
fine to, on rare occasions, a brief stint in prison, typically a
few days or weeks. Canadians think we can do better than this,
that we can prevent some of these acts with stronger deterrents
and tougher penalties.
However, all members should know that it is not only the animals
that will benefit from such measures. Canadians are perceptive
and they realize a society that cares for its animals also shows
more respect and compassion for its people. They know already
that the people who abuse animals may already be doing the same
or worse to the people in their lives. It is common sense, if
people are never made to account for their violence, that
violence may be more likely to escalate.
Simply put, violence is violence. A person determined to cause
pain and suffering often does not care who or what the victim is.
Animal cruelty is another form of violence in our society. If we
do not treat it seriously then we fail to tackle the problem of
violence in all its aspects.
As I mentioned, there is also a particular correlation between
animal cruelty and domestic violence. This is supported by a
growing number of studies involving battered women which show
that a clear majority of their batterers also abuse pets in their
home. They also show, sadly, that around half these women report
that they stayed in the abusive household longer than they
otherwise would have out of fear for the safety of the pet.
Animal abuse clearly figures into a larger pattern of violence
and abuse.
Animal abuse in the home can also have a devastating impact on
children. We all know of the natural bond that children form
with animals. A child that witnesses its beloved pet being
beaten by a parent will be psychologically traumatized. That
child may well be more likely to be abused if a parent is abusing
a pet. There is also data that suggests that children could be
more likely to grow up committing violent offences themselves,
imitating what they witnessed their parents do at home. If a
child manages to avoid a life of crime, he or she may suffer from
learning problems and social and developmental difficulties.
[Translation]
If we take the issue of animal abuse seriously, if we make a
reasonable effort to identify and punish it, we will stand a
better chance of preventing violence and other forms of
mistreatment with respect to human beings.
[English]
With that background I will briefly outline the main features of
the amendments relating to cruelty to animals. One thing the
amendments do is modernize and simplify the law. The law right
now is confusing and incoherently organized. The basic structure
is a result of piecemeal amendments to 100 year old provisions.
There is overlap between sections and outdated distinctions are built
into the law.
Bill C-17 will modernize the language of existing offences,
eliminate archaic distinctions and provide uniform protection for
all animals. It also proposes a rational and coherent set of
offences, for the first time distinguishing between intentional
cruelty and cruelty by criminal neglect. The person who loves
his or her animals but has too many to keep well fed commits a
different kind of crime his or her than the person who senselessly
brutalizes an animal. In short, the amendments will make the law
more logical and easier to use by law enforcement, prosecutors
and judges.
The main thrust of the amendment is penalty enhancement. Even
the most heinous and barbarous act today carries a maximum six
months in prison or a $2,000 fine. It is little wonder that the
police do not often expand their limited resources on cruelty
charges. I have heard time and time again from Canadians that
penalties must be higher to deter this behaviour and to denounce
and punish those who simply will not abide by societal standards.
The bill would give prosecutors more choice on how to proceed,
based on the seriousness of the circumstances. In really serious
cases the prosecution can proceed by indictment and the maximum
penalty will be five years in prison. It takes a strong
statement from parliament to get some people to understand that
cruelty will not be tolerated and to get cases brought before the
courts.
The five year maximum penalty is appropriate for this offence.
It is important to remember that the maximum penalty is reserved
for the most serious crimes committed by the worst offenders.
I invite members to compare this penalty with that for assault,
which also has a maximum penalty of five years. Assault can be
committed simply by spitting on someone or pushing someone who
did not consent to be touched. If bodily harm is caused in the
course of an assault then the maximum penalty jumps to 10 years.
I certainly think it is appropriate to have the same maximum
sentence for torturing and mutilating an animal as that which
exists for simple assault.
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Another sentencing measure in the bill relates to the court's
power to prohibit an offender from owning or having care and
control of an animal subsequent to a conviction. Right now the
courts can order a convicted offender not to own or possess
animals for up to two years.
It is commonly felt, including by some judges, that the two year
maximum is too short. Prohibition orders can be very effective
by preventing future harm without being overly punitive. Even
some provincial animal welfare statutes are stronger than the
criminal code and let the court decide what time is appropriate.
The bill will therefore give courts the much needed discretion to
fix the appropriate time limit on prohibition orders.
Another new sentencing feature is the power of the court to
order the convicted animal abuser to repay reasonable costs
to the humane society that cared for the animal in question.
Restitution orders have the potential to greatly assist humane
societies in fulfilling their statutory mandates to care for
abused animals. These organizations receive little public
funding but they play a vital role in taking in and caring for
animals. Humane societies should be reimbursed the reasonable
costs they expend in performing this valuable function.
Restitution orders are also a valuable sentencing mechanism
because they help instil a sense of responsibility in an offender
by holding him or her accountable for the damage or injury the
crimes have caused.
With regard to what kinds of acts constitute crimes, the bill
carries over existing offences and actually eliminates a few
offences that overlap with others. Bill C-17 strengthens the law
in many respects but actually creates only two new offences. It
will be an offence to brutally or viciously kill an animal.
Assuming that a person has a legitimate reason to kill an animal,
right now the law places no limits on the way in which animals
can be killed. The law only requires that unnecessary pain or
suffering not be caused in the course of a killing, but a quick
and painless killing is not necessarily synonymous with a humane
or acceptable one.
For instance, it is not acceptable to kill an animal with
explosives or to leave it to be run over by a train, even though
the animal may die instantly. These things actually happen.
Killing an animal in a particularly brutal or vicious way is a
special kind of crime which may in fact be just the sort of
conduct that causes the greatest risk to society. It reveals
the most depraved and sadistic intent. Evidence shows that many
serial killers acquired their taste for killing by practising on
animals.
[Translation]
All members of the House should support this measure, which is
aimed squarely at brutality and which gives the police and the
courts the tools they need to arrest and punish these
individuals, who may be extremely dangerous.
[English]
The bill also introduces a new offence of training an animal to
fight other animals. Certain acts related to animal fighting are
already crimes in Canada but are very hard to prosecute. Humane
society investigators rarely come across a fight actually taking
place. The training of fighting animals, dogs and cocks in
particular, is cruel to those animals and sometimes to other
animals such as kittens which may be used to train dogs to attack
and kill.
The people who engage in this activity train dogs to be
aggressive and deadly. Although it is not seen by most of us,
there does seem to be evidence of active cock fighting and dog
fighting rings in Ontario and British Columbia. This new offence
will provide investigators with a new tool in their efforts to
identify and shut down this insidious practice.
These are the main features of Bill C-17 as it relates to animal
cruelty. The bill responds to what can only be called
overwhelming public support and interest in better legal
protection for animals from unnecessary pain and suffering. The
government is pleased to make these amendments to recognize that
animal cruelty is a crime of violence and should be taken more
seriously than it has been for the sake of the animals and for
our communities.
Some members may not know that the government has
heard a number of concerns from certain groups representing
farmers, hunters and animal researchers. They are concerned that
these proposals, the way they are currently drafted, are vague
and imprecise and could therefore impinge upon their businesses
or livelihoods. I take this opportunity to thank these groups
for having shared their concerns and their ideas with members of
the minister's staff and Department of Justice officials at
numerous meetings over the course of the spring. Such
interventions are a helpful part of the law reform process.
As an aside, I point out that hunters and farmers are in fact
vocal supporters of strong animal cruelty laws. The overwhelming
majority of farmers, hunters and others who use animals do so
responsibly and humanely and in accordance with the law. They
are among the first to denounce those who fall below acceptable
standards. The concerns heard relate to uncertainty about the
interpretation of certain words and the application of the
provisions.
In my view some of these concerns are based on a number of
misunderstandings about the legal impact of the amendments and
fail to recognize the existence of fundamental criminal laws,
rules and principles which are not written in the criminal code.
It is not difficult to understand, if lawyers and judges can
disagree about the interpretation of some laws, that other
Canadians may also be reasonably uncertain.
1125
It is important for members of the House and for those concerned
to remember that there are already laws against cruelty to
animals, laws which our courts have interpreted and applied time
and time again. The bill does not create a new regime where none
existed before.
Aside from changing penalties the bill makes only very slight
changes to the law we already have. The criminal law has never
been used inappropriately to target the humane treatment of
animals in normal human activities. This is because the law and
the courts already recognize that there are many valid reasons
for the use of animals and that those reasons sometimes require
the animals to suffer or be killed. The bill does not change
that. In short, what is lawful today will be lawful the day
after the bill becomes law.
The Minister of Justice is determined that the criminal law be
clear and accessible to everyone, not just to criminal lawyers
and judges. It has been said before that our criminal laws
already recognize the humane treatment of animals in the course
of legitimate and normal activities such as farming, hunting,
fishing and animal research. As parliamentary secretary I would
like to assure those involved in such activities that the
government will include a statement in the bill to that effect
when it is before the Standing Committee on Justice and Human
Rights.
At committee all concerns can be discussed in greater detail. We
are prepared to make sure that if further clarification or
modifications to the principles of Bill C-17 are required so as
to improve the law and more clearly set out its objectives, we
will make them. We can work together to produce a law that
everyone is happy with and can support.
While I have devoted the bulk of my remarks to the cruelty of
animals component of Bill C-17, I want to speak to another
proposal in the bill which responds to concerns related to police
safety.
The bill will create a new offence of disarming a peace officer.
Every member should support this measure. Police officers are
required as part of their duties in investigating crime to enter
situations that are potentially dangerous. That danger can be
suddenly increased tenfold if a suspect grabs the officer's
weapon. Suddenly there is a life threatening situation. In fact
we are told by the Canadian Police Association that the taking of
an officer's firearm has sometimes resulted in the murder of the
officer. We are pleased to report to the Canadian Police
Association that the government has responded to its concerns on
this very important issue.
The names Scott Rossiter, Michael O'Leary and Aurele Bourgeois
may not be familiar to members of the House. They were all shot
with their own police weapons. Rossiter, a constable from
Ingersoll, Ontario, was shot by a suspect in 1991. Constable
O'Leary and Corporal Bourgeois were disarmed in the course of
trying to arrest two kidnappers in 1974. The offender then shot
the two policemen. I will not comment further at this time
except to say that if proof of the need for a specific offence of
disarming a police officer is needed, these three examples
provide that proof.
These are the highlights of this omnibus package. The
government is committed to ongoing review of the criminal law and
to the maintenance of effective legislative measures to protect
society and its members. As part of this effort the legislation
contains a series of other measures to address concerns about the
legislation, adjust offences and punishments, modernize the
statute and correct oversights enacted in previous legislative
initiatives.
We will continue to monitor the legislation and bring forward
further changes as the need for them becomes apparent. I look
forward to the support of all members of the House for this
important criminal code omnibus legislation.
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to stand in the House to speak to
Bill C-17. I have several concerns with the bill which as the
official opposition we are obligated to bring forward.
One of the issues facing us in this bill, among other bills
brought into the House of Commons, is the fact that it is
basically an omnibus bill. It contains many changes. Some are
technical amendments. Some affect the Firearms Act. Some affect
the criminal code, and so on and so forth.
We have talked about this numerous times in the House of
Commons. Once again I advise the government that when bills are
brought into the House it would be far better if they were
simpler, more understandable bills, each dealing with an issue that
can be tackled as an issue isolated unto itself.
The items directed for change are good changes. I will go
through what I agree with and what I do not.
1130
As my colleague opposite indicated, there is obviously reason
for concern among some groups. He also indicated that those
concerns were not that serious and that there may be some
misunderstandings about the bill. The fact is, if the
changes and aspects of the bill are unclear, he knows full well
what will happen. The lawyers and the legal industry will get it
and once again our legislation will be developed in the
courtroom.
It is important to understand that we have to make changes to
the legislation in that area. We will be looking for these
changes in committee. If we do not receive those changes or at
least clarifications so that the legal industry does not play
with this in the courtrooms, then my opinion on the bill may very
well change.
At this point there are three main provisions in the bill. The
first is that it amends the criminal code by consolidating animal
cruelty offences for brutally or viciously killing an animal or
abandoning one. It will no longer be a property crime. I do not
think there is much disagreement in the House as to whether or
not that is necessary. It certainly is in this day and age. We
have seen time and time again where cruelty to animals seems to
go unattended to by the courts. It has been basically a misdemeanour
up until now. I commend the government for that action. I agree
with it.
The bill also creates the offence of disarming or attempting to
disarm a peace officer. I wish this would have been a subject
unto itself in legislation because there is more to this than
just that aspect of it. However, I commend the government for
that aspect of the legislation, as it is truly necessary. I know
the police forces and peace officers appreciate this kind of
action coming from the House of Commons.
The amendments to the Firearms Act are incorporated by expanding
the class of prohibited handguns that are grandfathered and
modifying the employee licensing requirements. I think that as
well has been accepted and taken with a fair bit of understanding
and appreciation.
Let us look at what is really new in the bill under those three
categories. The bill raises the penalty for intentional cruelty
to animals from the current six months to five years. That is an
upward limit. There is no minimum penalty, which in a way is too
bad. I think minimum penalties also enhance legislation, not just
maximums. When we go into the courts of this land, maximum
penalties are seldom applied.
I might add, however, that in my long time spent looking at issues
such as conditional sentences, I have seen many cases where women
have been sexually assaulted and their attackers have received
conditional sentences, sentences of much less than the current
sentence the government is proposing for cruelty to animals.
I should say to the government that when we look at it from that
perspective, I would suggest that the government should go back
and look at conditional sentences. It should try to take the
action whereby violent offenders cannot get conditional
sentences. When we look at it in perspective, with cruelty to
animal bills everyone will understand and appreciate that there
has to be some kind of comparison for the time and the crime.
The current legislation lifts the cap on the fine, which is
currently at $2,000. I do not think the legislation as I
understand it identifies whether or not there is an upward limit
to that or whether the dollar values of the fines are open.
We will be asking the following question when it comes to
committee: is the level of fine open-ended or designated? I
would like the parliamentary secretary's comments on that.
1135
There is a potential for a lifetime ban from owning an animal
for those convicted of cruelty to animals. I like that. I think
it is about time that we set some standard in this country. I
can recall case after case in British Columbia where people have
mistreated animals. In fact sometimes many animals have been
mistreated in one place not just one animal. These people have
had more animals within their care shortly afterward. That was
wrong. In one case that I recall, it was the second time around
for an individual in British Columbia when he was again caught by
the SPCA for brutality to animals.
Those found guilty of cruelty to an animal now have to pay the
bill for the vet services to treat the animal. This is a great
move. However, I want to put some relevance back into this and
into other legislation. In this case we are holding responsible
an individual who has been convicted of being cruel to animals
for the cost, for the responsibility of trying to fix the
situation by fixing the animal.
When we talk about the Young Offenders Act, for instance, we say
“Where it is applicable, why not hold parents accountable for
the damages caused by the young offender?” The government
virtually panics when we talk about this. Yet if an animal has
been hurt, the government turns around and says that it will hold
the people responsible for its injuries. Consistency in the House
in government legislation would be more appropriate, and the
government should look at that.
The bill acknowledges that animals have feelings and are
deserving of legal protection from negligence or abuse, which I
think we can agree with.
It is a separate criminal offence to take away or to attempt to
take away a police officer's weapon and it is punishable by
imprisonment, to a maximum of five years. I agree with that, but I
think minimum sentencing should be put into the legislation. I
know that historically in our courtrooms the minimum sentences
come out of those kinds of convictions. I would not like to see
legislation like this go to waste. If such a situation does
occur, and it does occur, as my colleagues across the way said,
it should not go to waste on a conditional sentence, on a
suspended sentence or on a one year sentence. I would suggest to
the government that it put a minimum in place.
The legislation will adjust employee licensing requirements in
order to better reflect appropriate firearms safety training for
employees who handle restricted and prohibited firearms as
opposed to non-restricted firearms. I think that is good as
well. I do not think there would be much argument with that.
Who likes the bill? It would be difficult to find any pet owner
who would disagree with it. The SPCA and organizations like that
have been long awaiting such legislation. I am sure the police
will be happy. Cruelty to animals should have been a crime some
time ago. It is good to bring in this legislation on the eve of
an election, but I doubt very much if it will receive royal assent
before the election. Let us just hope that when the government
brings in a useful bill like this we go all the way with it
before an election takes place. The police will get more
protection, which they need.
Who does not like the bill and why? It is the job of the
official opposition to find out who does not like the bill.
1140
The groups that have approached us and said they do not
like this bill include: Fur Institute of Canada, the
Canadian Outdoor Heritage Alliance, Ontario Federation of Anglers
and Hunters, Western Stock Growers Association, Ontario Farm
Animal Council and Canadian Property Rights Research
Institute. Why do they not like the bill? My colleague across
the way has alluded to the fact that some groups are unhappy. I
think that is the case in this situation, where we have to
register wider unhappiness, go to committee and
give these groups some assurance that they will
be protected.
While the parliamentary secretary did say “Yes, they are
protected. There have never been any problems before so there
will not be any problems in the future”, he has already said
that there are some misunderstandings about the bill. I know
from past and personal experience that when this gets into a
courtroom the legal industry will have a field day with it unless
it is made clear.
Let us look at the concerns. The genesis of the changes to the
cruelty to animals legislation is to no longer treat cruelty to
animals as a property crime. The new provision would move
cruelty to animals to part V of the criminal code under sexual
offences, which would be renamed sexual offences, public morals,
disorderly conduct and cruelty to animals.
Animal cruelty provisions are currently contained in sections 444
to 446 of part XI of the criminal code. This section of the
criminal code protects a person from being convicted of an
offence if he acted with legal justification of excuse, colour or
right. Agricultural groups, anglers' and hunters' groups, and the
Fur Council of Canada want cruelty to animals to remain in
sections 444 to 446. They fear that by moving the cruelty section
to sexual offences it will make it easier for them to be
prosecuted. They argue that those who lawfully and legitimately
harvest animals for business will not be protected if the cruelty
section is changed.
I am no expert on that aspect of the criminal code and,
thankfully, I am not a lawyer, but as a layperson in the House of
Commons and as opposition justice critic, I know that when those
issues go before the courts it will one day be the case of an
individual harvesting animals who will say “I told you so way
back when. Why did you not make it clear?” Therefore, we will be
moving an amendment at committee stage to have animal cruelty
provisions maintained in sections 444 to 446 or to make the
necessary changes to section 182(1) to comply with the concerns
of farmers, hunters, agricultural groups, the fur trade and
others who harvest animals.
I would like the parliamentary secretary to take note of that. I
would appreciate the parliamentary secretary getting back to us
to determine whether or not he feels the scenario I have laid out
in the House of Commons is applicable and accurate.
The second point on the cruelty to animals section of Bill C-17
that causes concern is the amendment to the bill that proposes to
take out the words wilful and wilfully as a defence if a
person is charged.
This would make prosecution easier but not proper in many
instances where one is involved in the legitimate slaughter of
animals or the raising of animals for legitimate use or
harvesting. If the words wilful and wilfully are
removed, this would leave the requisite of criminal intent for
animal cruelty undefined and thus would leave legitimate animal
harvesters in jeopardy.
1145
I almost sound like a lawyer. Heaven forbid.
We will be moving an amendment at committee stage to ensure
legitimate individuals involved in animal operations are not
unduly subject to criminal intent. In all seriousness I would
suggest again to the parliamentary secretary that the issue be
looked at, because unless we are satisfied that this issue is not
a legitimate concern, and at this point we are not, we will not
be moving ahead with the bill.
A third part of the bill that causes legitimate animal
operations concern is the amendment which proposes that criminal
intent for animal cruelty can be simply civil negligence.
Agricultural groups would like to see the terms wilful
neglect or marked departure from the exercise of reasonable
care maintained, not something like civil negligence, which
could be used to prosecute farmers trying to carry out normal
farming operations and cattle management, et cetera.
Mr. Speaker, you will hear more today about that aspect from
people who are farmers. They can put much more practical
conversation into the bill because they live with these concerns
day in and day out. These are not concerns of just one or two
farmers; these are concerns of farmers within associations and
of the associations themselves.
We will introduce an amendment at committee stage to ensure
there is recognition of the need to protect legitimate farm
operators from prosecution.
The fourth part of Bill C-17 is of concern. Under what is
called animal care provisions, the bill proposes convictions when
there is any pain, suffering or injury to an animal. Currently
the criminal code prohibits unnecessary pain. It is only common
sense that removing the word unnecessary could open up a
whole area for conviction. As some have pointed out, putting a
worm on a hook could become a problem for fishermen. This is
unrealistic and too open to interpretation to prosecution.
One has only to look at one's own interpretation of what is
realistic and unrealistic. When we talk about unnecessary pain,
animals cannot really identify unnecessary pain. That is
determined by individual people. The concern, and rightfully so,
of these groups is whether or not their operations will be
questioned by many others about what is unnecessary pain. Will it
next be that farmers, hunters and anglers are in courtrooms
defending themselves, at very large expense, on the question of
unnecessary pain?
In committee we will move an amendment to re-establish the word
unnecessary to protect anglers and others who are conducting
a sporting activity. I know the government will want to avoid
this by saying “Do not worry, trust us, this has never happened
before”. However, when the government opens up a new bill for
amending legislation, the slate is basically clean and we start
off at a new day.
When such words as unnecessary pain are removed or
reintroduced, the question comes up in the courtroom.
1150
The fifth area of concern is the provision in Bill C-17 which
states that anyone who kills an animal or, being the owner,
permits an animal to be killed brutally or viciously, regardless
of whether the animal dies immediately, is guilty of a criminal
offence. This part is very subjective and is open to too much
latitude. This part is ambiguous and must be defined more
clearly. We will move an amendment in committee to remove any
ambiguity in this area.
I do not think this in any way, shape or form is paranoia on
behalf of any group. These are legitimate concerns.
One thing I opened with is the difficulties and complexities
with omnibus bills. There are many things in the bill we
support, but because of the ambiguity and the size of the bill,
rather than us right up front saying great job, good job, there
are some complexities in the bill that some groups are concerned
about.
I would ask the same thing as my colleague the parliamentary
secretary asked, that all members of the House work together in
committee to make sure that these concerns are taken care of.
Let us not leave it to the courtrooms of our country. It has
never been an acceptable way to do it.
There you have it, Mr. Speaker, some suggestions and comments,
some ideas on legislation that goes a long way in my mind to
helping with a serious problem in any country, and that is
cruelty to animals, and with another problem, that of protecting our
police. One area that has to be looked after is the area of insecurities
and concerns of those who feel this legislation may draw
them into a nightmare in the courtroom. I am sure the government
does not want that. I am sure my colleagues want
reassurance that it will not happen.
In one way I would like to say to the government, not a bad job
after seven years in office. It is not a bad job considering
that an election will probably be called before this bill gets
royal assent. Perhaps we can bring this bill in after the
election without the complexities the government has put into it.
On two fronts of the bill I commend the government. However, I
do insist that the insecurities of those who have legitimate
concerns be dealt with in committee. There will be a very tight
scrutiny of the bill there.
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, at the
outset I ask for the consent of the House to split my time with
the hon. member for Churchill.
The Deputy Speaker: Does the House give its consent for
the hon. member to split his time?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Gordon Earle: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to address
Bill C-17. The bill amends the criminal code with respect to
cruelty to animals, disarming a peace officer and other
amendments and makes technical amendments to the Firearms Act.
At the outset I would say generally that the NDP is opposed to
omnibus legislation. The matters contained in the bill have been
lumped together and have very little in common. They deserve to
be dealt with as separate pieces of legislation. Having said
that,
however, the bill deals with very important issues and we will be
supporting the bill.
1155
As has been indicated, the bill amends the criminal code by
consolidating animal cruelty offences into one section and
introducing new offences for brutally or viciously killing an
animal or abandoning one. It creates an offence for disarming or
attempting to disarm a peace officer. It also makes a number of
technical amendments. The bill also amends the Firearms Act by
expanding the class of prohibited handguns that are grandfathered
and modifying the employee licensing requirements.
I want to dwell upon a couple of very important points in the
bill. I will leave some of the other points to my hon.
colleagues.
Cruelty to animals is certainly a topic of concern for a lot of
people. The changes to the criminal code dealing with cruelty to
animals stem from a public outcry over a large number of highly
publicized cases involving animal abuse over the past few years.
The hon. member opposite mentioned a number of these incidents in
alarming detail.
As a result, animal welfare groups, humane societies and the
public have been calling for tougher measures to protect animals
and punish abusers. The justice department issued a discussion
paper entitled “Crimes Against Animals” in 1998 and received
thousands of responses from the public.
While some might view cruelty to animal provisions as a low
priority, we are fully aware that studies have shown an alarming
connection between animal abuse and other forms of serious
violent offences, in particular domestic violence. A significant
percentage of those who are violent toward animals later
perpetuate violence against people. It does not take a lot of
in-depth knowledge to understand why that is the case.
When we see a lack of appreciation for life, no matter what the
level of that life may be, it certainly has an impact upon
society. Children who are used to, who become used to, or who
are not admonished for cruelty to animals will certainly grow up
with an attitude that it does not matter if they hurt a living
entity.
It is sad to see in our world today a lot of desensitizing as to
how we relate to fellow human beings. We see so much violence on
television. We watch some of the TV programs. It is amazing the
degree of violence we can see being perpetuated through TV,
through movies, and even now through a lot of the video games
that children play. There are games played where people shoot,
kill or harm individuals. One may say it is just a game, but I
think it is slowly creating an atmosphere where children become
insensitive to harming one another.
Look at what is happening in wartorn countries around the world.
We see situations such as Sierra Leone, where children's arms
and legs are amputated. I often ask myself how one human being
can be so cruel to another human being. I am afraid that people
who harm animals and who are insensitive to the pain that animals
feel are capable of doing the same thing to fellow human beings.
It is very important that the issue be addressed. The proposed
amendments on animal cruelty will raise the maximum penalty for
intentional cruelty to five years in prison and will not set
limits on fines. It is important to have a serious penalty for
such an offence.
It will give judges the authority to order anyone convicted of
cruelty to animals to pay restitution such as veterinary bills
and shelter costs to the animal welfare organization that cared
for the animal. It will prohibit anyone convicted of cruelty to
animals from owning an animal for however long the judge
considers appropriate. There are some very serious penalties for
a very serious offence.
Another very important aspect of the legislation that merits some
comment is the disarming of a police officer. We know that the
job of a police officer is a very important one. It is a job
that a lot of people would not want, yet we look for our
police officers when we need them. These people often put their
lives on the line in the course of duty. A police officer may
have to stop a car on a busy highway. When the officer moves up
to the car he or she may end up facing death because the driver
has a firearm and is out to harm them. There are many
situations of domestic violence where police walk into a
situation and their lives are literally put at risk.
1200
The legislation concerning the disarming of a police officer is
very important and significant to the well-being of our police
officers. It will create a new offence for disarming or
attempting to disarm a police officer and will set the maximum
penalty for that at five years imprisonment. This is intended to
highlight the seriousness of the offence and is supported by many
policing organizations across the country, including the Canadian
Police Association, which lobbied strenuously for this particular
provision.
The NDP supports this provision. We feel it is important to
support those who put their lives on the line for society,
including police officers, firefighters and people in our armed
services. These people are not appreciated in the way they
should be and this legislation goes one step in moving toward the
proper appreciation for this kind of function.
I am very pleased to stand and support the legislation and the
underlying principles that are involved in the kinds of amendments
that have been proposed. Those principles underscore our
respect for life and for living entities, whether they be animals
or human beings. The respect for the role of the police officer
is necessary if we are going to make this the kind of society in
which we want to live.
When police officers perform their duties, their side arm is a
very important tool. It is not necessarily one that they would
use on every occasion, but it is something that they have been
trained to respect and have been given proper instructions on how
to use it. It is a necessary part of their equipment in law
enforcement. When someone attempts to disarm a police officer,
it puts them at a very serious disadvantage. They cannot deal
properly with the situation they are faced with because they are
busy worrying about trying to keep that firearm out of the hands
of someone who is probably going to use it to the disadvantage of
the police officer.
These principles are very important. The NDP stands in support
of this legislation and urges all hon. members in the House give
their support to it.
Ms. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my
colleague for Halifax West made a point of addressing specific
areas of the bill. When we discussed how to proceed with
bringing forward our thoughts and concerns on the bill, it was
interesting to note that we had to look for a way to tie all of
the different aspects of the bill together. One of the things
that has been stated by many members is the concern about all of
the different issues that have been brought together in this one
bill.
For parliamentarians and Canadians who want to address an issue,
who want to see where it is and what legislation is there, it is
much easier to go to a bill or legislation that applies
specifically to the issue. This bill combines an act to amend
the criminal code, cruelty to animals, disarming a police officer
and technical amendments to the Firearms Act. This reminds me of
the old Sesame Street rhyme “Which of these things belongs
together, which one is not the same”. I tried to see how we
tied them all together. I guess we can in the fact that they
deal with the Firearms Act. We talk about disarming a
police officer, and we might use a firearm to shoot the animal.
This is the point we are at with this bill.
Once again the government has failed to be open with Canadians,
simply by mushing a lot of things together when each of these
areas warrants discussion in its own right. Disarming of a
police officer certainly warrants legislation which specifically
deals with that area, to make sure that it gets dealt with
properly.
1205
Without question the amendments to the Firearms Act, because of
all the other things that have happened out there and the bad
feelings over the firearms certification and registration
program, give an uncomfortable feeling to the people who were
not totally satisfied with that piece of legislation. Concerning
the issue of cruelty to animals, there is concern that this
legislation is going to impact on areas that it is not intended
to. I hope that is clarified when it goes to committee.
When it goes to committee, it is important that the committee
and this House ensure that Canadians have the opportunity to be
involved in the discussion that happens. If that means going into
areas of the country where there is a major concern about the
issues we are dealing with in the bill, then we have to do that.
It was previously mentioned that there is concern that the bill
will apply to areas of legitimate hunting and trapping practices.
Hunters, trappers and those in the fur trading industry are
concerned. They are in an area that has been targeted for years
by animal rights protesters. There is concern that this bill
will have an underlying motive of attacking their livelihood. They need to
know for sure that such is not the case. To do that
means allowing them to have a say at committee. If
that is not the intent of the bill they need to have that concern
alleviated. If it is the intent of the bill, then it needs to
come out in an upfront manner.
It is my understanding it is not the intent of the bill at this
point. When it goes to committee, as I said, we will weed things
out to find out exactly where it is at. However, it is important
that Canadians and the ones affected specifically by this bill
get the opportunity to have their say and have their fears
alleviated.
In other words, the bill can leave no misunderstanding as to its
intention because it has a grave impact on the fur industry, on
the hunters and trappers and also on the farming industry.
Although we know that the practices are done in the most humane
way possible, there are always those out there who do not believe
that animals should be killed in any way, shape or form for food
or whatever other uses there may be. If there is any risk that
their livelihood is going to be threatened, they need to be able
to have a say in this.
There is another area—because this is mushed together—that is
extremely important to comment on. My colleague mentioned it.
I know there are small changes taking place under sexual
offences, public morals and disorderly conduct and small changes
that define the terms child and illegitimate child. Once again,
would it not have been more forthright to have these listed
separately so that they would be recognized?
I find it disrespectful in all areas of this bill to mush
everything together. I believe when we spend time in this
House we want to be forthright with Canadians, we want to make
sure things are clear and we want Canadians to understand the law
and respect it. By introducing omnibus bills like this Canadians
have less and less respect.
Again, the changes to the heading of Part V of the criminal code
which are being replaced by the following and by having all of
these sections fall underneath it is not representing the
legislation as it truly is and is misleading to Canadians. The
one thing that we can surely do is be clear with our legislation
and be clear with the laws so that Canadians can respect the
justice and the laws in this country.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise and take part in this debate on
behalf of the Progressive Conservative Party. I must say I have
listened intently to all speakers on this bill. It has been a
useful exercise to hear the various perspectives.
I think we would find almost to a person that the legislation
will receive a great deal of support. However, one overriding
issue in the government's decision to bring in this legislation
is the fashion in which it has chosen to do so. As the previous
speaker, my colleague from the New Democratic Party, indicated,
this is really a cross-threaded bill. It is a bill that mixes
issues that really do not belong together. Not to diminish at
all the importance of this, I cite, as an example, that the only
way in my mind that I can tie this bill together would be to
suggest that somehow a person wrestled an unlicensed gun away
from a police officer and used it to dispose of an animal in a
cruel fashion.
1210
These issues do not fit together in any semblance. Therefore,
the bill should be divided and put into a more proper
perspective, one Canadians would understand and appreciate in a
more real way. In my submission it diminishes the importance of
these individual issues to try to force them together and to
force Canadians and parliamentarians to contemplate them at the
same time.
The consolidation of the current criminal code with respect to
the cruelty to animals provisions, which are put in place by
the bill, are certainly those that are needed. They are needed
to modernize the current law as it pertains to this aspect of
justice. It is something that has emotional and visceral
reactions from those in the private sector.
Obviously, there are concerns, which have been touched upon,
that the bill might go too far in its definition of cruelty. I
hope to touch on those issues with respect to a balance and the
counter-arguments that have been brought forward by those in the
hunting, fishing, angling and farming vocations. It may go too
far in the responsibility that is attached, for example, to
property owners. However, that is not to say that these issues
cannot be addressed and ironed out at the committee, which is the
proper and just fashion in which to do so. I say that, somewhat tongue in
cheek, on the understanding that the committee will be
given an opportunity to really debate and to put forward reasonable
amendments that the government will be amenable to.
We know that has not been the case most recently. We saw an
example of a bill, perhaps the most important bill in this
session, being jammed through the committee without any
discussion whatsoever or without any opportunity by opposition
members to bring forward amendments. It will leave this place on
a rocket. It will be pushed through with closure. While the
government House leader used to stand on his desk and rail like a
banshee against the prior government, he is now using these same
tools, which were so offensive to him when he was in opposition,
to do the same thing, only worse. The only real examination of
the youth criminal justice bill will occur in the other place.
It is encouraging to see that members of the reform alliance and
the Bloc are so appreciative of the work that will be done in the
other place and I look forward to their support.
Turning our attention to Bill C-17, the amendments to the
criminal code will remove the reference to “illegitimate child” and
ensure that the evidentiary protection afforded to other victims
who testify at trials is also provided by some of the changes.
Amendments with respect to persons with disabilities who have
been victims of sexual exploitation are very important and
practical changes. The Conservative Party is entirely supportive
of these amendments.
With respect to the Firearms Act, the expansion of the class of
recently prohibited handguns that are grandfathered and the changes
to clarify the licensing requirements of employees in the firearms
business are practical changes that are necessary and that
arguably should have been in place in the first instance. Again,
I hearken back to my earlier comments on what that has to do with
cruelty to animals. What does it have to do with respect to
changes to definitions in the criminal code? There is real
confusion in the bill.
An omnibus bill is a hybrid that brings in several aspects of
legislation that have no tie-in. What it does, in effect, is
force divisions among all parties with respect to their
ability to support certain issues, because there is no relation.
The cruelty to animals aspect is perhaps what is most prevalent
and most controversial about the legislation. The Department of
Justice reviewed provisions in 1998, and a consultation paper
entitled “Crimes Against Animals” was distributed to allow
groups and individuals to suggest modifications that would be
required to deal effectively with cruelty to animals. No one in
his or her right mind would oppose or in any way try to delay
provisions that would protect harmless animals, in most
instances, animals that are either in the wild or in captivity.
These provisions in essence bring about a greater recognition,
through the criminal code by sanctions, that this is something
that society will not tolerate.
This is an action that is abhorred and is certainly not
acceptable.
1215
It is, as was alluded to, something that changes the attitudes
with respect to animals being deemed as property. The reasoning
is of course that it is now recognized as a common symptom of a
deeper mental illness. Individuals who involve themselves in
cruelty to animals, as hon. members know, very often go on to
involve themselves in other types of crime perpetrated against
humans and property. It is seen as an escalation when a young
person who is abusive to animals later goes on to commit
crimes against other children and adults. There is an escalation
of criminal behaviour when people start by abusing animals. There
is mounting scientific evidence that verifies this link between
animal abuse and, often, domestic violence and violence against
other humans.
The public, the police and many interest groups have been
calling for more effective federal legislation and federal law to
deal with cases of animal abuse. There are numerous examples,
too numerous to cite and often too heinous in their description,
that verify and justify a change in the legislation.
Currently in cases such as we have seen, under the old
provisions an offender could receive only six months in jail or a
$2,000 fine. I would suggest that this is an inadequate response
given the gravity and sometimes the symptoms and specific facts
of a case. The old provisions did not truly express denunciation
of and deterrence for those involving themselves with cruelty to
animals. There was also a provision to have a ban on the
ownership and possession of certain animals. That as well could
be increased.
In this country we know there are still a lot of instances of
animal fighting taking place. There are instances of animals
such as racehorses and greyhounds used for racing being treated
poorly in their confines.
Mr. Speaker, as a person who has followed criminal law, you well
know that having legislation here sends an important message that
raising the ceiling of the reaction of the criminal justice
system will in fact change the attitude. It expresses the
government's and the public's non-acceptance of cruelty.
The Minister of Justice has explicitly linked animal abuse to
rape and to child abuse, citing U.S. studies which pointed out
that those who torture animals are more likely to involve
themselves in similar cruel activities. I agree with the
minister. There is mounting evidence that this type of mindset
has to be disavowed. Serial killers such as Jeffrey Dahmer, who
brutally dismembered humans and even practised cannibalism,
abused animals as a child, so again there is some suggestion that
this type of mindset develops very early. Increased sentences
with an increased response from the criminal justice system is
something that the Progressive Conservative Party would support.
The sentencing changes, depending on the charge, are anywhere
from two years' imprisonment to a maximum of five years when the
crown proceeds by indictment, or six to eighteen months or a fine
of not more than $2,000 when it is a summary charge. This is
certainly more representative of a deterrent type of response.
Further changes also involve payment of additional costs
incurred for the care and convalescence of an animal. Payment
would be made to any individual or organization that cared for
the animal and would include such things as veterinarian's bills
and shelter. Again, this is a direct correlation between the
harm done and the person who perpetrated the offence. It brings
about greater accountability and greater direct responsibility
and, I would suggest, is more demonstrative of condemning the
action. It gives the person a greater understanding of the harm
done. The same principle is behind restorative
justice. It is a more personal connection between the offender
and the unlawful act. These are positive steps, which our party
supports.
However, we need to study the bill closely at committee so that
we do not in some instances potentially criminalize farmers,
hunters, trappers or fishermen engaged in their normal way of
life. Presently the bill is loosely worded in some of the
provisions. Some of the amendments that will be required would
tighten this up and would make it more operable in a practical
sense.
1220
Under the proposed legislation farmers feel that they could be
prosecuted for common practices such as branding or dehorning of
cattle. Castration of cattle would be another element we will
have to discuss at the committee.
Some anglers are convinced that fishermen could be charged with
regard to tactics including baiting. This proposed legislation
would surely be a real impediment to fishermen who need to bait
hooks in order to catch fish.
The Canadian Jewish Congress has expressed worry that Bill C-17
might interfere with Jewish ritual slaughter methods.
Biomedical researchers are worried that their work might also
lead to criminal prosecution.
There are instances that we have to turn our minds to. That
discussion should properly take place at the committee.
Some of the groups have requested that the language in the
legislation be clarified, particularly with interpretations of
phrases such as these I am quoting from the bill: “unnecessary
pain, suffering or injury” and “brutally or viciously” killing
an animal.
They want some protection from other practices. I am quoting
some examples from the correspondence that I received, such as:
identification, medical treatment, spaying or neutering;
provision of food or other animal products; hunting, trapping,
fishing and other sporting activities conducted in accordance
with the lawful rules relating to them; pest, predator or disease
control; protection of persons or property; scientific research
unless the risk of injury or serious physical pain is
disproportionate to the benefit expected from the research; and
finally, training and disciplining of an animal.
There certainly is a great deal to contemplate when we are
considering this legislation. Poisoning of an animal or using a
mousetrap, potentially, not to put too fine a point on it, is
something we have to consider when putting provisions into a
criminal code that could cause serious ramifications for an
individual. It is the same sort of thing as creating any kind of
new offence.
That leads me to the point with respect to changes to the
Firearms Act. We know now that as of December 1 law-abiding
citizens who have properly licensed themselves, who have properly
licensed handguns in the past, who have been through training
sessions and who have done everything in accordance with the law,
would become criminals simply not by licensing a long gun. We
have to be very careful when we go down the path of criminalizing
ordinary citizens. That is without getting into all the other
ludicrous aspects of this long gun registry, which is costing
hundreds of millions of dollars and will not affect dangerous
crime at all.
The existing legislation touches as well on some traditional
practices of hunting, fishing and farming. Yet they do not fit
into the category of mean-spirited violence. It is imperative
that animal cruelty legislation be clearly designed to target
only those who engage in brutal practices against animals.
The justice minister has been contemplating an amendment that
would exempt farmers, hunters and animal researchers from the
bill. A change is certainly needed to provide legal security for
lawful practices of animal related professions.
One must consider the genuine need for clarity and progressive
legislation in this area. It is careless legislation that
endangers individuals and that is something that I think most
Canadians find very disheartening. It is obvious that little
consideration was given to the broad effect of this bill and the
impact it may have on certain professions. Discouraging as well
is the lack of foresight, in that this bill was brought forward
in an omnibus fashion and it deals with many other issues that
confuse these important issues.
The elements of the bill that touch upon disarming of a police
officer have also been given a fair bit of discussion and
contemplation. I would suggest that this is one aspect that is
very straightforward. It is one that has the enthusiastic and
overriding support of police across the country and of many
groups. I know that Grant Obst, the president of the Canadian
Police Association, Dave Griffen, the executive director, and
supporters of the association, who were here on the Hill this
past weekend participating in the police memorial service, are
very enthused that the government has chosen to bring this
legislation forward. It is something they have lobbied for.
It is something that they feel will have an immediate impact.
1225
It goes without saying that it is very important to give
specific recognition in the criminal code with regard to a person
in an agitated state trying to take a weapon from a police
officer. Any time there is a firearm or a weapon involved there
is the imminent chance of bodily harm; there is the imminent
chance that a person could lose his or her life. If a person chooses
to try to disarm a police officer, for whatever reason, there is
grave danger afoot.
We know that oftentimes a police officer using a weapon is doing
so in the gravest circumstances, in order to try to de-escalate
or control a situation. There is grave danger and harm when a
person tries to interfere with a police officer, either by taking
his weapon or by interfering in the use of a weapon by a police
officer.
The Progressive Conservative Party is very supportive of this
particular legislation. It is something that we feel is
necessary to send a strong message to the public and a strong
message to those who would engage in that type of serious,
dangerous conduct. Police officers themselves, I think, will
receive some comfort in knowing that it is a bill that will give
specific recognition to that offence in the criminal code.
If officers are deprived of their weapons or are unable to carry
out arrests effectively, it very much interferes with their
important work. This new section does define weapon for the
purposes of subsection (1) as “any thing that is designed to be
used to cause injury or death to, or to temporarily incapacitate,
a person”, and would include such things as firearms, obviously,
and pepper spray and batons. It is deemed a hybrid offence. It
has a maximum penalty of five years imprisonment and the crown of
course can elect to proceed by indictment or by summary
conviction.
As I alluded to, the president of the Canadian Police
Association, Grant Obst, and his organization initiated this
process and have been leading the proposed movement to bring
about this specific offence. They “welcome the introduction of
this new law and encourage its speedy passage by parliament”.
Those are very supportive sentiments. Those sentiments are
shared by the Progressive Conservative Party. We will be
supporting this aspect of the bill.
Although the government could certainly do more for police,
particularly in the areas of funding, speedy passage of
legislation as it pertains to criminal gangs and organizations,
and the seizing of stolen property, I would suggest that this is
an important, practical response to a need that exists, a
response to a void that exists in the criminal code.
There are other amendments that I spoke of earlier with respect
to the definition of child. Removing the negative and
unnecessary connotations that stem from the term illegitimate
child is something that I think is certainly politically
correct but it is also something that is important to those
individuals born out of wedlock who have carried this unfortunate
moniker.
With regard to sexual exploitation of persons with a disability,
adding this to the criminal code is a specific recognition in
language. Again, it is something that I feel is important not
only to the legal community but to those who for reasons not
brought about by themselves find themselves deemed persons with
disabilities who are in the court system and are faced with these
types of designations. I feel that victims of sexual
exploitation will receive and should receive the same evidentiary
protections that are afforded to others. Again, this is a very
practical and common sense amendment that takes place in the
criminal code, one we are completely supportive of and embrace in
this legislation.
The technical amendments for the firearms are straightforward.
They deal with licensing requirements. I think the employees and
businesses that deal with these regulated items are supportive of
this for the most part. It is legislation that should have and
could have been included in the original bill, as unpopular as
that bill was. This aspect was left out. For employees who
handle or could handle firearms or prohibited or restricted
weapons or prohibited devices of any kind, it brings about, in
the course of duty, requirements for being authorized and
licensed with respect to restricted weapons. These proposed
amendments set out similar licensing requirements that pertain to
others who handle firearms.
Again I would suggest that although it is necessary, it is
certainly an indication that the government was somewhat
negligent in its initial drafting and that it is backpedalling on
other aspects of the bill.
1230
We have seen now that the government is extending the dates with
respect to the fees associated with licensing. The legislation
is something that will continue to be contentious and could well
wind up as an election issue in the coming days or weeks when the
Prime Minister and his spouse decide to pull the plug.
Overall we are supportive of most aspects of the legislation
singularly. However, we are forced to deal with them jointly in
the legislation because of the manner in which it has been
brought forward. As I have indicated in my remarks, there are
very positive and very practical elements to all of this. It is
just unfortunate that the government has chosen to bring about
legislation in this way and to do so in such a fashion.
One might also question the priority given to the bill. This is
not to diminish the importance of any element of the legislation,
but we also have important legislation that would offer tax
relief and legislation aimed at bringing about or trying to
fulfil a promise the government made seven and a half years ago
to redraft and rework the youth criminal justice act. That
simply has not come about because the government does not like to
compromise.
The government does not like to work with the opposition even
when there are reasonable requests and reasonable efforts made to
improve government bills, or ideas that originate on the
opposition side as we have seen in many instances. The
government's response is usually not to embrace those ideas but
to reject them in the first instance, and then in a very Janus
faced fashion turn around and call them its own. We have seen
that happen on many occasions. That is the Janus-like persona of
the government.
We have seen it on free trade. We have seen it on the GST,
privatization, helicopters, and the Pearson airport. The
government said one thing in opposition. Then, lo and behold,
when it was rewarded by the electorate for making these
statements it crossed the floor, formed the government and
reversed itself, swallowed itself whole and condemned the very
ideas it purported to support when in opposition.
This is something for contemplation by the electorate, something
that no doubt will be discussed and debated during the course of
a campaign. Although I do not hear much hue and cry from the
opposition to rush headlong to the polls, it is quite obvious
that the Prime Minister feels it is to his optimum advantage at
this time. Therefore, with his persona, he is very quick to use
that advantage.
Canadians will have to assess whether it was necessary. They
will have to assess the timing of it. They will also want to
assess his record. They will want to assess what accomplishments
he can point to in his government's mandate in the short time it
has been here, just over three years since the last election.
The bill has provided the impetus for Canadians to hear from
members of the opposition what they think of the legislation.
Also it is an opportunity to talk generally about the government,
its mandate, its priorities, and to assess whether those
priorities are in line with those of Canadians who are suffering
at this time because of problems with health care and in the
education system.
My colleague from Madawaska—Restigouche talks often about
student debt, individuals with seasonal employment situations who
are struggling to get by and to feed their families, and
individuals across the country who find themselves mired in the
justice system because the wheels of justice turn so slowly.
Perhaps there will be more time on other occasions to discuss
these greater issues, but at this time the Progressive
Conservative Party looks forward to dealing with the bill at
committee level and dealing with the other issues in a more
comprehensive fashion at some time in the near future.
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-17, an act to amend
the criminal code regarding cruelty to animals, disarming a peace
officer and other amendments, and technical amendments to the
Firearms Act.
We have heard a number of people in various parties talk about
this omnibus bill. We have had this before. The government will
introduce a bill with some good points, some points that require
discussion, and some points that we do not agree with.
Then people have difficulty understanding what is the issue since
there is such a grab bag of different subjects.
1235
In this bill disarming a police officer is lumped in with
cruelty to animals. It would be far easier if we could get a
very straightforward bill dealing with one issue. We could then
discuss it, deal with it and get it through the House. When it
is such an omnibus bill containing a grab bag of different issues
it is extremely difficult because there are some good and bad
points and it is either yea or nay.
We agree with the Firearms Act refinements. We agree with the
disarming of police officers issue. They are good points. The
government should be commended for putting them in the bill.
These are issues that people have been crying for for years to be
dealt with. Police officers particularly have been wanting the
legislation in place. I agree with it. However, by lumping
cruelty to animals into the bill the waters get muddy because
there are no clear definitions.
We hope we can get the bill into committee where we can discuss
it. Most of us agree that cruelty to animals is simply not on.
We have read the stories of the puppy mills. We have heard of 50
or 100 cats being in one house. Obviously we disagree with that.
I have seen horses and cows in some barns where they are slowly
growing up to the roof because the manure gets two and three feet
high and people do not clean the barns. We clearly do not want
to put up with that.
The difficulty occurs when it gets into ordinary agriculture
practices like branding, dehorning and hunting. The definitions
in the bill have to be laid out specifically for hunters and
fishermen. What about aquaculture? The legislation is so loose
that we need to step forward in committee to bring forth some
clear and solid definitions. We need some tight legislation that
lays it all out. Let me take trapping, for example. Leghold
traps were banned. We have humane trapping. Perhaps that is in
the bill; perhaps it is not. We need to have that cleared up.
When people abuse animals is it the start of a chain of events?
Do they start by kicking a dog? Five years later are they
kicking a person? Fifteen years later are they kicking their
wives? Psychologists say this progression exists. We need to
look at it. If cruelty to animals is the beginning of a long
chain of events, it has to be stopped.
We have talked many times about wording in legislation. Often
the government will leave it very loose. This is extremely
dangerous because we are leaving our laws open to interpretation
by the courts. We have an option as parliamentarians. We can
leave it loose to be interpreted by the courts, or we can tighten
it up and say what we mean. In that way we as the elected people
in the House would say the way it should be. We are the elected
officials. We should deal with the legislation, make it concise
and make it tight so there is not a lot of room for the judicial
system and it knows exactly what parliament means.
That is what we need. The bill is fuzzy in terms of
agriculture. What is abuse? What is cruelty? What is a regular
practice? Unless it is clearly defined we will leave it up to
the courts again.
1240
This is not where we want to be. This is not where the Canadian
public wants to be. They want parliament to run the country, not
push it off to the judiciary.
In closing, we agree with a number of parts of the bill such as
the firearms aspects, but there are a number of concerns in the
cruelty to animals area we wish to discuss. We would like to get
the bill into committee, call witnesses, hear from the experts,
see how tight is the legislation, and deal with it at that time.
Mr. Dale Johnston (Wetaskiwin, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I listened to my colleague speak about the cruelty to
animals aspect of the legislation. Certainly I agree with his
assessment that those who inflict cruelty on innocent, defenceless
animals should be dealt with.
However, I am wondering about the definition of what causes pain
and suffering. Would my colleague like to comment on the
concern I hear from people in the agricultural community I
represent that common practices with livestock, such as dehorning
and castration of bulls and branding for identification, may be
construed as cruelty to a defenceless animal?
In order to carry out these operations on farm animals, we have
to restrain them in such a way that the operation can be done and
the brand is readable. In the part of the country I come from
the hot iron brand is still very much a legal way of identifying
our livestock. It is the one permanent method that works. Ear
tags and such things are ways of identifying cattle as well, but
even the application of an ear tag on an animal may be construed
as cruelty to animals under the bill. I am extremely concerned
about that and would like to voice the concerns of constituents
that have talked with me in this regard. Would my colleague like
to comment?
Mr. Bill Gilmour: Mr. Speaker, my colleague has had
representation from people in his riding. I suspect most members
in the House have heard the same representations as well as
different concerns about different aspects.
My colleague made an excellent point. This matter has to be
dealt with in committee. We need to hear from the agricultural
groups. Different representations need to be made.
What happened in the past? Let us look at the Inuit. Let us
look at what we have done to their livelihood by the change in
the fur industry. It changed a whole way of life. If we act in
a knee-jerk fashion in terms of this legislation, if we act
without knowing the full impact of the legislation, we can change
the lives of our agriculture people.
I agree with my colleague that we have to get the experts and
all worker groups together. If a common practice for farmers
sounds nice to people living in Toronto or Vancouver, we may want
to have a second look at it since people in the cities tend not
to understand what goes on in rural areas. A knee-jerk reaction
may end up doing great harm to the hunting, farming, trapping and
fishing.
I cannot stress more that the bill has to go to committee to
be well analyzed. Experts will appear before the committee to
describe the ramifications of the different parts of the bill.
1245
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker,
I am honoured to stand in the House of Commons to speak to Bill
C-17. I echo some of the comments made by previous speakers who
decry the system of having an omnibus bill that covers a whole
bunch of things. It always reminds me of being offered a bowl of
pudding that has a little gravel in it. It is nice eating the
pudding, but when one chews on a piece of gravel it hurts.
There are a number of things in Bill C-17 that quite obviously
need substantial change, substantial improvement. In the end, as
is the process in this parliament and by this Liberal government,
we will have the task of voting yes or no on a bill containing a
number of things. It will then be thrown back at us in a very
negative way, because we voted against the bill for a completely
different reason.
With an election coming up, one cannot help but think the worst
twist will be put on some of the things people do in the House in
order to try to discredit them. That is very unfortunate. The
Canadian public, the people who vote for us, should certainly
have the right to know about these issues and should know our
stand on them. We should not have accusations thrown at us. If
I vote against the bill for such-and-such a reason, it is not
fair of my critics to turn around and say “Well, here is a
person who voted against this” and then name one of the really
good things in the bill.
For example, I do not think one should normally be opposed to
provisions that prevent a peace officer from having his firearm
taken from him or her. If, in doing his or her job in
maintaining the peace, a policeman or policewoman gets into a
scuffle with and is disarmed by an individual who is committing
an offensive act, the particular individual should be eligible
for a charge of disarming a police officer. Yet if I vote
against the bill because of other offensive clauses then in the
next election campaign probably one of my critics will say the
RCMP should not vote for those guys because they do not support
their keeping their firearms. That really clouds the issue and
unfortunately does not serve the Canadian public well. Nor does
it serve parliament well.
I wish that we could have a greater clarity, or at least that
the government would have some openness to accepting some
amendments to fix things up. It is our party's intention to
propose a number of amendments to the bill in order to correct
some of the anomalies in it.
By the way, speaking of firearms and officers being deprived of
them, I wonder whether the federal government would be guilty of a
crime if the bill is passed. The bill says it will be unlawful
to separate a police officer from the weapon the police officer
has in order to do his or her job of protecting the peace and
maybe arresting a person. It just so happens that the attorney
general's department is already disarming these people.
It happens that very close to my riding, just about a mile or so
outside the boundary of my riding, is a federal institution, the
Edmonton institution. I have had some representation from people
who work as guards at the Edmonton institution. They are being
disarmed while they take dangerous offenders out on day parole.
They are not permitted to take their arms with them while they
are trying to protect the public from harm by a dangerous
offender.
The offence an ordinary citizen could be found guilty of with
this law, which we support, is an offence that is already being
committed by the attorney general's department in our maximum
security prisons. That is just not acceptable. We would all
agree that our peace officers should be allowed to use arms in
their work, especially if they are trying to control a convicted
offender who is dangerous to the public. To say that somehow the
public safety is increased by disarming the police officer just
does not make sense to me at all. The bill does not address that
question. I am just using it as an example.
1250
In the bill there is a very great curiosity with respect to
cruelty to animals. There are already provisions with respect to
wilful cruelty to animals, but the bill proposes to move the
section that covers cruelty to animals to the same section of the
criminal code that deals with sexual offences, public morals and
disorderly conduct.
It just so happens that nowadays sexual offences, public morals,
and disorderly conduct are areas in which, statistically
speaking, it is easier to make charges stick than it is in some
of the other areas. There is a concern that by just having this in
this section perhaps Canadians who are charged under these
offences would have greater difficulty defending against unfair
charges.
The objective in our justice system should be, but I am not sure
that it is under this government, to make sure that those who are
in fact guilty of a crime are so found and that an adequate
deterrent punishment is meted out to them. If a person is not
guilty of the crime with which he or she is charged, if our
justice system is working correctly the charges should be
dropped or the person should be found not guilty. Hopefully that
person could go on with his or her life, having established his
or her innocence. That would be the objective in an ideal world.
We all know that in the give and take in a court trial sometimes
the truth is actually somewhat muddied in order to make a point
as, I might venture to say, is sometimes done in the House.
It is interesting that a word is being taken out, a very
important word. Words are so important in giving definitions. In
the old code one would be guilty if one wilfully caused cruelty
to animals. The word wilfully is being withdrawn. That raises
many questions that we need to have answers to.
It is one thing for an Archie Bunker type of guy to come into
the house and kick his dog as he opens the door. That is wilful.
However, what happens if he walks in and does not see the dog and
accidentally hits it? Is he still charged with having kicked the
dog? No longer was it wilful according to the act, but he did
kick the dog. That is true. He cannot say truthfully “No, I
did not kick the dog”, but the fact of the matter is, he did not
see the dog so it was an accident. I know that should be a
valid defence and hopefully it would be kicked out. The fact of
the matter is that with the word wilful having been removed all
of that is put into doubt.
I do not think we should go down that road. It is a dangerous
road because it makes it more difficult for an innocent person to
defend himself or herself against a charge for an act that in
fact was accidental.
1255
It is interesting also that other definitions are changed in
subtle ways. It used to be that persons could be held
responsible if they owned an animal or if they had charge of it,
as in when they were transporting it. It seems to me that
according to the bill it could apply now to any animal at all
that crossed a person's path.
I had a very interesting occurrence in my riding earlier this
spring. I was driving along a major highway and there was a big
truck behind me. It was not a semi; I think it was probably a
farm truck. As I was driving along, lo and behold I saw ahead of
me a mother duck with six or eight of her little ducklings start
to cross the road. I faced a real dilemma right there, because I
am one who would not in any way wilfully harm any animal. Of
course these little ducklings were so cute besides. It is always
difficult when one looks at a mother and her little children. I
faced a dilemma. Do I jam on the brakes and risk having the
truck run into the back of me, or do I just carry on and run over
this mother duck and her little ducklings?
The story has a happy ending. I was able to slow down. I
flashed my lights so that the truck behind me had fair warning. I
gauged it so that I would not slow down so rapidly that the truck
behind me had no capability of stopping before he was into my
back end. I just judged it as well as I could and slowed down as
much as I could, giving the trucker as much warning and as much
distance as possible. Fortunately mother duck, seeing us bearing
down on her and her family—
An hon. member: Mother Goose.
Mr. Ken Epp: No, it was mother duck. She said to her
children “We had better wiggle our tails and get out of here”.
With that they put it in hypergear and away they went. I was
able to move over to the shoulder to give them a little space.
The truck behind me did not have to do that. All their little
lives were spared.
That of course is the object. What we are dealing with in the
criminal code is people who do not have a built-in care and
compassion for life, whether it is animal life or human
life. That is what the criminal code is about. If all of us
cared about each other, we would not need the criminal code. We
would not need a codification of what happens if a person beats
someone up, if someone is brutally assaulted or killed. We would
not need those codes because people would not do it. Obviously
the purpose of the law is to restrain those who do not have that
built-in moral code and who would act on their own accord
wilfully against other forms of life.
I will digress for a second. One of the definitions is that an
animal is, according to these amendments, to be defined as a
vertebrate or any animal that can feel pain. I guess we have a
bit of a question there. One of the things I remember doing when
I was a youngster is going fishing with my dad. I do not do it
any more now. I do not have any time and I have lost interest in
it. Many people either make their livelihood by fishing or do
sport fishing.
I remember when I was a youngster we went down to a little lake
south of the place where we lived. Every once in a while my dad
would reward us for working hard on the farm. He would say
“Tomorrow we will take a day off and go fishing”. The first
thing we did was go out to the garden and dig up some worms. I
remember it well. The object was to have a little pail of live
worms in dirt, and off we went to the lake.
1300
I hope you do not mind my relating this story, Madam Speaker. It
is rather gruesome.
When we got to the lake, we put those poor little live worms on
the hook. We impaled them on the hook. I do now know whether
the poor little worms are animals capable of feeling pain. I did
not hear any of them scream, but I have never heard a worm scream
in any case. I do remember that the tail wiggled when we impaled
the head end on the hook so maybe there was a response to pain.
We know that a worm is not a vertebrate, but it is an animal that
can probably feel pain. According to the definitions in the
bill, the question is, should a person who goes fishing be charged
with cruelty to earthworms?
Speaking of earthworms, I remember that when I was a biology student
in high school and university we dissected worms and frogs. We
all did that. It is part of learning how the physiology works.
We took them apart to see their different parts and to learn
about the different bodily functions. We all know that medical
students do this extensively in order to become good at what they
are to do, which is to help us when we have an illness or injury.
Is that a cruelty? I can imagine some people saying it is
pretty cruel to anesthetize a frog into oblivion so that it can
be used as a research tool. Let us go one step further. How about
the animals that are used in live research? Monkeys are used to
duplicate some of the illnesses that befall human beings to see
whether various treatments work on them. Rats and guinea pigs
are used, as are other animals. Is that cruel or is it not?
Certainly we do not support being wilfully cruel to an animal,
but to use an animal for legitimate scientific and medical
research surely cannot be wrong. It is an advantage to us in the
human realm. By taking out the word wilfully we have opened
up a large question. Even with the word wilfully one
could have argued that perhaps this was cruelty but now it makes
it worse. We should not be getting into the area of making it
more difficult for people to do legitimate scientific research
even though there are arguments to be made for treating these
animals very humanely, as humanely as possible. I agree with
that because it is not always humane.
When I see the phrase that the animal is one that can perceive
pain, I am reluctant to give this example, but I think I must. We
have that very sad case in Canada that a human is not considered
a human until it is fully born. One really needs to ask whether
in late term abortions of human beings, that unborn human, one
minute before it is naturally born, is capable of perceiving
pain. In my opinion, there is no cover in our criminal code
against that criminal offence any longer. That is perhaps an
error that is of considerable consequence.
Madam Speaker, you have given me the signal that my time is up.
I am certainly not finished talking about this topic. There are
many other areas to discuss but I close by appealing to the
Liberal government to change the way it works in committees.
I appeal to the government to give careful thought to and
actually assent to the amendments we will be bringing forward to
correct some of these anomalies. Doing that would make the
legislative process work so much better on behalf of Canadians.
1305
Mr. Dale Johnston (Wetaskiwin, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, I was very interested in my neighbour's speech. Our
constituencies share a boundary so I know that his constituents
and background are somewhat similar to mine.
I was very interested to hear him say that the words wilful
and wilfully have been removed from the bill. Anyone who
wilfully inflicts pain or suffering on animals, whether it is
wilful or whether it is through negligence, should suffer some
sort of punishment because they ought to know better.
I listened to other members today who talked about the
possibility that those who abuse animals and treat them badly are
also likely to be the sort of people who abuse and treat
human beings badly. I agree. I think there is a correlation
between the two. I also think that wilful neglect, damage, or
even neglect because a person did not know any better, should be
penalized.
I would like my colleague to expound on how he feels about
livestock producers who fail to adequately care for and feed
their livestock and therefore cause them to emaciate and die of
starvation. I would like him to comment on another practice.
Where he and I come from rodeos are a big thing in the
summertime. Does the use of animals in a rodeo constitute
neglect or wilful harm?
Mr. Ken Epp: Madam Speaker, my colleague raises a number
of important questions.
Certainly I would concur with him 100% that if a person wilfully
causes discomfort and pain to an animal just for the sake of
causing the pain, it is very serious. I would suggest that
the person needs not only punishment from our criminal justice system
but we should also arrange for that person to get psychological
and perhaps even psychiatric help. There is something wrong with
a person who gets his or her jollies by inflicting pain on an
animal or another human being. There is a deep psychological
problem there.
With respect to what I call the normal use of animals, and I am
talking about farmers and, to a certain degree, animals that are
used in entertainment, in circuses and rodeos and so on, I do not
think the animals in those contests endure any greater pain than
do our athletes in the Olympics in most instances. They run,
jump, kick and do whatever they have to do.
Having grown up on a farm, I have seen horses without a rider
engage in races. They love doing it, especially the little
colts. Many of us have seen that. They will take off and run to
the other fence to see which one can get there first, just like
kids do. There is nothing wrong with our getting enjoyment out of
that, certainly within the context of humane treatment.
A number of years ago I spoke to one of my friends who owned a
very large pork operation. He owned little piglets. The
building had several wings; it was like a hospital or a factory.
There was a breeding section and a maternity section. The little
guys moved through the different wings in the building, down to
the end where they came to the finishing wing, after which they
were hauled into the truck and taken off to market.
1310
One critic said it was a cruel way to treat those animals. He
responded by saying “These animals are treated better than a lot
of humans. I give them total care. Their house has air
conditioning, mine does not. It has temperature and humidity
controls. They have balanced and very healthy diets. If they
have an illness, at great expense to myself, I have a
veterinarian on call 24 hours a day who gives them better care
than does the health care system in Saskatchewan”.
We need to remember that this is part of the food cycle. It has
always been thus. I do not think we can turn it around.
Certainly, as my friend does we can provide for those animals, treat
them humanely, and cause them absolutely no unnecessary
suffering. It was the first time ever that I had actually seen a
guy pet his little pigs. He took good care of them. As I say, it
is part of the reality, and from thence comes the bacon to go
with our eggs.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Canadian Alliance):
Madam Speaker, the hon. member for Elk Island is a veteran member
of the House. He has given a very interesting speech with very
interesting answers to the questions, but a question still
remains in my mind. I would like him to clarify.
How do we define cruelty? It is a relative term. For some
people some things are not cruel whereas for others they are.
There are cattle farmers whose livelihood depends upon killing
animals for meat and other purposes. There are other activities
such as sports, the circus or rodeo, which are simply for the
sake of fun but which cause pain, suffering and injury to
animals.
How would the member define cruelty? Would he agree that it is
a relative term and that it is not defined in the bill at all?
Mr. Ken Epp: Madam Speaker, again it is a question that
is almost impossible to answer. What is cruelty?
I am not into this at all but I understand there are some people
who experience pleasure in pain. There are special names for
them, sadists and masochists. The line between pain and pleasure
is really blurred there. Like I said, I am not into that at all
but I can see where there would be a pretty lively debate on
whether or not something is painful.
I grew up on a farm in Saskatchewan. Dad used to get us up
early in the morning. When the sun came up, he would say “The
Lord put the sun in the sky as a light for us to work. It would
be a shame for us to waste it”. We got up early in the morning
and worked until late at night. We were hot and sweaty and had
chaff all over us. Someone who has never worked under those
conditions just does not value a shower at all. There is nothing
compared to the pleasure of a shower at the end of a day like
that.
In a way it was painful. It was hard work. Sometimes we hurt
at the end of the day from the physical exertion we had put out.
Nowadays there is a lot more mechanization in farming. It was
painful, yet it was pleasurable.
Of course the courts are going to have to rule on whether
something is cruel to animals. As I said before, I have actually
only been to a few rodeos in my life. The only one I wonder
about is the calf roping. Sometimes it looks like they get
jerked pretty good, yet I have never ever seen one having to be
taken off in a truck. They always survive. They seem to be
built for it.
My own opinion would be that most rodeos and circuses are well
within the bounds of treating animals humanely. That is my own
opinion.
We need to keep it all in balance. As I said before, in all
cases wilfully causing an animal pain is not permitted.
1315
Just in passing, one more example is the training of animals,
whether it be dogs or horses. Anyone who has ever done this
knows it is done by a combination of reward and punishment. A
small amount of pain is inflicted on the little dog who does his
doody-doo where he is not supposed to do his doody-doo.
Eventually he learns and becomes a trained dog, and we like him.
As long as he does his thing all over the house, we do not like
him. We all experience a bit of pain in that regard.
Mr. Dale Johnston (Wetaskiwin, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, as usual, my colleague from Elk Island has been very
insightful and rather entertaining. I expected when he was
telling us about coming down the road and seeing the mother duck
that he could actually hear her say to her little ones “duck”,
but I guess he left that part out.
The other day I was driving home in broad daylight on a country
road that was not very wide. There was some extremely tall grass
in the ditch. A deer jumped out of the ditch and I collided with
it. It was totally an accident. I am sure I inflicted some pain
and suffering on that deer. I am also convinced that the deer
inflicted some pain and suffering on me, because I had to repair
the automobile afterwards. I had to do it quickly before my wife
inflicted pain and suffering on me, because it was her car.
I am looking at the bill and I am wondering if I might be guilty
of inflicting pain. If someone had come along they would have
seen me strike that deer. I frankly did not see the deer leave,
because it rode up over the front end of my wife's car and landed
behind the back door. By the time I got the vehicle stopped and
got out of the car, the deer had vanished. Although I was not
going very fast, it does take a few seconds to get the car
stopped. I was not able to assess whether it limped away or
whether it bounded off, but I am quite sure that at 60 kilometres
an hour, which was about the speed I was travelling, striking a
deer with a car that weighs 4,000 pounds would certainly inflict
some harm on it and some pain, maybe even break some bones. I do
not know.
Under the bill, would I be guilty of inflicting pain on that
animal? That is one of the reasons it is so important that we
keep the words wilful or wilfully in the bill.
There are many other aspects to the bill. It also deals with
the disarming of a police officer and technical amendments to the
Firearms Act. I frankly do not have any argument with that. I
think that the disarming of a police officer, if it has not been in the
code all these years as a specific crime, certainly should have
been. We have to give our police officers the tools to do their
job. We must respect our police officers for the job they do.
Anyone who attacks a police officer should suffer the full wrath
of the law. I am also talking about trying to disarm the police
officer, take away his firearm.
I have no problem with the technical amendments to the Firearms
Act. They seem fairly reasoned and commonsensical. On the other
hand, other aspects of the bill lack that elusive quality of
common sense.
Coming from a farming community, I see all sorts of things.
Normally our livestock producers take the very best care of their
livestock. It is in their best interest to do so because this is
their livelihood. This is their living. Occasionally we hear
reports on the radio or on the television stating that in
such-and-such an area several head of cattle, hogs or whatever had to
be humanely disposed of because they were in such a bad state of
emaciation from lack of feed or they had been hauled in a truck
that was so cold they had frozen spots on their carcasses. That
is an offence that absolutely should be punished. There is no
rationale whatsoever for causing undue suffering to defenceless
animals.
1320
Therefore I am making the case that wilful negligence should be
taken into consideration, whether it is inflicting wilful
suffering and pain or whether it is done through lack of
knowledge or lack of attention. If someone knew or should have
known those conditions would bring suffering and pain to an
animal, livestock, pet, cat, dog or whatever, it would be very
difficult for them to defend their position in a court of law.
Those individuals should in all instances be found guilty of
cruelty to animals.
I mentioned earlier agriculture and rodeos. I certainly do not
support blood sports such as dog fighting, rooster fighting, or
bear baiting, the old idea of putting a bear in the ring to kill
dogs or turning dogs on the bear simply to entertain people who
watch the fight. None of that makes any sense to me whatsoever.
We have to differentiate that from a common practice in the
agricultural industry that is absolutely necessary. Farmers do
not neuter their bull calves simply because they want to inflict
pain and suffering on them. They do it for a very practical
reason, which is that the animals fatten better and it makes them
more docile. It also plays a large role in the genetics of the
cattle herd. Farmers select the bulls they want to add to the
gene pool of their livestock and simply neuter all the ones that
do not measure up to a certain standard. That is a common
practice, as is the practice of hot iron branding of cattle for
identification purposes.
I know of one instance where a friend of mine who is a cattle
buyer bought a load of cattle or two. He was marshalling them at
a custom feedlot. He continued to buy cattle until he had a
certain number and then find a buyer. He also put together
orders for people who had asked him to pick out a certain amount
of a certain type of cattle.
Unbeknownst to him, this feedlot was suffering from real
economic stress. One day he went there and found the sheriff had
actually seized the feedlot and all of the contents therein,
including the cattle my friend had bought. I do not know whether
my friend had a premonition or what, but he had undergone the old
western practice of putting a brand on these cattle before he put
them into the feedlot. When the sheriff asked, “How can you
prove you actually have cattle in here that belong to you?” He
said “They have my brand on them”. The sheriff released his
cattle to him immediately. Cattle could be identified perhaps
with a tattoo and it might stand up, but an ear tag would not.
1325
While we are talking about tattoos and ear tags, do they inflict
pain and suffering on the livestock? If they do, would putting
an ear tag or a tattoo in the ear of an animal, which is a very
common practice for purebred animals, inflict pain and suffering
and make one guilty of a crime under this act? Those are all
questions we have to ask.
I would like to see the bill go to committee. I would like to
see it amended to reflect some of the common sense and some of
the practices that are common and have been acceptable for
hundreds of years.
At every auction market in the country and at every rodeo there
are representatives from the humane society who are there to
supervise. Those people would be great witnesses before the
committee because they have seen what is acceptable and what is
not. They have a very good idea of an acceptable practice and a
practice that would constitute cruelty.
I would like to see all the amendments we have put forward
adopted by the committee. They would answer some of the concerns
of farmers, hunters, agricultural groups, those in the fur trade,
people in the rodeo and the circus business, and others.
Every year the Calgary Stampede takes place. There is usually a
protest following or during the stampede that says the roping of
cattle is unnecessary cruelty and all the rest of it. There is a
long way between the catching of a calf at the end of a lariat
rope and cock fighting. Cock fighting is a brutal sport in which
two roosters fight until one of them is dead. To me that is a
senseless and cruel sport that has no place in modern society. I
agree with those people who oppose it.
Wilful neglect is certainly deserving of harsh punishment. It
is absolutely unacceptable. From an agricultural point of view
it just does not make any economic sense not to take care of
livestock. Neglect of farm animals, where they are not properly
fed or not properly bedded, is not only against the law and
should be against the law but is also a very stupid economic
move. If one is with the condition that one does not have the
feed or the bedding to properly look after livestock, then they
should be sold. There is a ready market for any livestock and
they should be sold to someone who will take care of them.
Still in the livestock and farming vein, there is one clause of
the bill I would like to quote from. It says anyone who “kills
an animal or, being the owner, permits an animal to be killed,
brutally or viciously”. I wonder what brutally or viciously
killing means. Does it mean if one shoots them it is brutal and
vicious and if one tickles them to death it is okay? I do not
understand that at all.
If one kills a human being, is it brutal and vicious? I think
so. Gophers, which are properly known as the Richardson's ground
squirrel, dig up meadows and generally cause havoc with the turf.
One could shoot them with a .22 or, worse yet, use a leghold
trap. As we kids used to do in school days at recess, one could
go out and drown them by pouring water down their holes.
Perhaps we were guilty of cruel and unusual punishment with those
poor little ground squirrels, but are those things all considered
to be “brutally or viciously” killing the animals?
1330
The bill goes on to say that anyone who “kills an animal, or
being the owner, permits the animal to be killed, brutally or
viciously, regardless of whether the animal dies immediately”,
is guilty of a criminal offence. My concern is that I own
livestock. The whole purpose of the livestock is to create
protein, meat, for customers. To do that, since we have yet to
discover a way to eat animals alive, animals have to be killed in
some way.
Even if the animal dies immediately, we are guilty of a criminal
offence, and even though we did not do it. I guess we hire
professional hit men to kill our steers so we are still guilty of
consulting with and getting somebody else to carry out our foul
deeds. Even though the animal dies immediately, we are guilty of
a criminal offence.
I shudder to think of how many times I have been guilty of that,
because we have sent literally thousands of animals to the
slaughterhouse. The animals die immediately, I think. I am not
sure, but I am pretty sure that they do. They are immobilized,
the butcher opens the carotid veins in the neck, the animal is
bled and dies almost immediately. As soon as the carotid
arteries are opened the blood pressure goes to zero and the
animal is for all intents and purposes dead immediately.
However, that does not matter. I am still guilty under this
legislation. That is a terrible deficiency in the bill. I hope
that the committee will move to amend this or to remove any
ambiguity in this area so that the person who raises chickens for
a living will be able to have the chickens killed and processed.
We had chicken for lunch today. I wonder how that got here. It
got here because somebody killed the chicken, I hope not brutally
or viciously, and I hope immediately. I hope somebody did not
have to go to jail because we had chicken for lunch.
That is the kind of common sense I am talking about, which is
absent in the bill and which is absolutely vital to the bill. We
cannot stand to have this kind of ambiguity. We must have more
clarity. The bill as it is now will cause a tremendous amount of
anxiety in the agricultural community. It has already, in my
opinion.
While the bill is not in the form that I would like to see, I
want it to be on the record that I am a pet owner and a livestock
producer and I pride myself on taking good care of my livestock.
My animals are well fed, with good access to a good water supply.
In cold weather I keep them bedded. We give them the very best
obstetrics we can if they have difficulty calving; we do
everything we can to assist them, including giving them Caesarean
operations if need be, to save the life of one or the other and
sometimes both.
As far as our pets are concerned, we have a little white Maltese
dog that we keep in the house. She is our pride and joy. Our
children grew up and left and we needed something to mother, so
we got a puppy. I would not do anything whatsoever to make life
uncomfortable for that little dog.
Frankly, anyone who would is an abuser and should be dealt with
as an abuser, whether he does it through neglect or wilful harm.
I want to be extremely clear about that.
1335
I support the idea that animals have a purpose in our lives.
Pets have a different purpose than farm animals, obviously, but a
lot of pets on the farm are also working pets, like stock dogs.
We have had stock dogs on our farm that were an absolutely
essential part of our operation and saved us many steps.
While I am not pleased with the bill in its present form, I am
prepared to give it tentative support to get it into committee in
the hope that it will be amended to reflect the common sense
suggestions I have put forward today.
Mr. Darrel Stinson (Okanagan—Shuswap, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I want to commend the hon. member for
his speech. He addressed many concerns that many of us feel and
that many of us of us have heard about from a number of
organizations.
There are a couple of questions I would like to ask the hon.
member.
I have concerns about how far this is going to go. We know that
we use mice and rats in experiments in regard to health issues.
Should that be looked at with regard to this bill? That is of
some concern to me.
Also of great concern to me is the fact that there are two parts
to this bill, one with regard to cruelty to animals and the other
with regard to the disarming of a peace officer. Why would the
government bring in legislation that mixes those two together?
That has created a lot of concern. If someone were to disagree
with part of the bill, the opportunity is there for somebody else
to say that they disagreed with the legislation on the penalty
for disarming a peace officer. It worries me. I do not know if
we can call it cagey or crafty that a government would try to
introduce a bill that has to do with cruelty to animals and throw
the disarming of peace officers into the same piece of
legislation. I can see no sense in this.
Could the hon. member address this as to whether or not he has
heard any of these same concerns?
Mr. Dale Johnston: Mr. Speaker, I welcome the questions
from my colleague from Okanagan—Shuswap.
It would be my hope that the use of medical or laboratory
animals would be an acceptable practice, provided of course that
they are treated humanely in the course of the experiment. We
all know that because of laboratory animals there have been huge
advancements in medical science. I would think that the benefits
would vastly outweigh the fact that these animals have to undergo
experiments. Would I support having that covered and clarified
in the bill? Absolutely I would. I think it would be of the
utmost importance.
The second question my colleague asked is why there is this
omnibus sort of bill, why they are mixing apples and oranges. It
is not my place to impugn motives to the government, but if I
were the suspicious type I would say that perhaps it has been
done this way in order to set a bit of a minefield for the
opposition, such that if the opposition finds something
insupportable in the act and votes against it, all of the above
simply become fine points. What will be kept on the record on
the government side is that a certain party or a certain
individual did not support strengthening the cruelty to animals
act.
1340
Of course, that is all speculation. Everyone knows very well
that I am not one who would impugn motives to any person or any
party in the House.
Mr. David Chatters (Athabasca, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, it is unfortunate that we are having this debate this
afternoon without the participation of the government side
because I would dearly love to put some of my questions to
government members. Unfortunately we cannot do that because they
do not seem to be responding.
This discussion we are having on what constitutes cruelty to
animals is very curious. I cannot help thinking that given the
government's access to the best legal minds in the country, the
government could, if it wished, solve some of what appear to be
inconsistencies in the bill.
Certainly one of the inconsistencies I note is that even under
the existing act we seem to be wilfully participating in acts of
cruelty to animals. We have heard of a number of instances. I
think rodeos were mentioned. I can think of many more. A number
that I have witnessed come to mind. For example, traditionally,
for hundreds of years, in Atlantic Canada we have prepared
lobsters by dumping them in a pot of boiling water. That seems
to me, in my prairie vision, to have some degree of cruelty.
I have also witnessed a religious process of slaughtering
animals that has existed in this world since biblical times and
before. In my view, it certainly constituted wilful cruelty to
that animal.
Yet under the existing act, these things are never prosecuted.
There never seems to be a willingness to prosecute. The only
thing I can see that the original act contained was a necessity
of criminal intent, which protected those groups or those people
participating in these things. That criminal intent is removed
in this new act, which in my view lays open to prosecution all of
those groups that participate in these things we talked about. I
would like the member to respond to that comment, if he would,
please.
Mr. Dale Johnston: Mr. Speaker, I too am quite concerned
that we are not hearing from speakers on the opposite side.
Members opposite drafted the bill and should be here to defend
it. Their non-participation and indeed their ambivalence to this
whole thing perhaps could be interpreted in a couple of ways.
Maybe they think the legislation is so great that there is
absolutely no way it could be improved upon, although I do not
know how they could get that idea, because every one in the House
who has spoken on it so far today has suggested improvements to
the bill. Perhaps they are so ashamed of it that they just want
it to slip through the House like a dose of salts, with nobody
noticing it. Otherwise why is someone from that side not
responding from time to time?
The other question my colleague raises is the one about wilful
intent. I spoke to that at some length during my remarks but I
would not mind actually expanding on that just a little. He
talks about the ritual slaughter of animals by certain religious
groups, which absolutely does date back to the time when history
began to be recorded.
1345
We have customs whereby the native people are still allowed to
carry out their whale hunt. The Inuit are allowed to kill a
certain amount of whales by harpooning them. I wonder if that
has been considered in the bill.
I keep going back to two points. We have to consider what has
been accepted practice for literally hundreds of years. We also
have to be very cognizant that whatever we put into the statutes
has to be tempered with copious amounts of common sense.
Perhaps common sense is not something that is very easily
divined. We can argue that what is common sense to my knowledge is not
necessarily common sense to others and vice versa, but the
generally accepted term of common sense should be applied in
liberal doses to this particular act.
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to participate in the debate today, and I
am pleased for a couple of reasons.
The first reason is that it gives me an opportunity to explain
to the people out there in television land—I do not have to
explain it to people in the House as they pretty well understand
the strategy behind all these things—that we are once again
seeing a bill that deals with some very questionable issues.
Along with that, some of the legislation that has been put forth
does truly answer the need of our law enforcement people, which
in turn answers the need for public safety. This has been
combined with some much needed regulations in the gun
legislation,
which has been flawed for quite a while. This has been mixed all
together and called an omnibus bill.
Like good children who take their medicine, if we sprinkle a
little sugar on it they are supposed to swallow it and like it. I
have risen in the House too many times to count to address a
number of bills that come with a whole pile of things in them,
some that make perfectly good sense as to why they are there and
others that make no sense to me at all.
I cannot understand for the slightest moment what the disarming
of a policeman has to do with cruelty to animals. Why are these
two issues combined in the legislation? I want to support the
particular part of the legislation which says that trying to
disarm a policeman will be a criminal offence, and it should be a
serious one. That is a good part of the bill. However, we also
have to deal with another section of the bill regarding cruelty
to animals. There are so many questions that need to be answered
it is not even funny.
There is no definition with regard to what is meant by so many
statements. Am I supposed to warn my five year old grandson when
he goes fishing that somebody might be watching him as he puts a
worm on his hook? According to the legislation that possibility
exists. There is nothing in there that says a chicken farmer who
raises chickens for the purpose of harvesting them for food for
the public is allowed to trap or harm a weasel that might be
trying to destroy some of his chickens.
Nothing in the legislation explains what is considered to be
cruel. Believe me, I certainly do not condone the abuse of a pet
in any form or fashion.
That should never be allowed and, as far as I understand, it is
not allowed today. Charges can be brought against an individual
who exercises these kinds of abuses.
1350
However, the bill clearly does not set out what is an
intentional, unreasonable act of abuse upon an animal for no
other reason than maliciousness. There is nothing in the bill
that says that the chicken farmer or my grandson will not be
responsible for hurting or causing pain to an animal that is
being used for the purpose for which they use them.
Why are those things mixed up? I am really surprised there is
nothing here to seriously address child pornography. Why not mix
that in with all this? Why not take some other issue that the
government slides around and stick it in there to make it look
good? Is that the reason we have this particular section stating
that it is a criminal offence if someone tries to disarm a peace
officer? Is it to make the other sections of this flawed bill
look good? Or, is it to make me look bad for not supporting a
bill because of certain aspects of it, even though I want to
support it because of other aspects of it?
It makes no sense to me that grown men and women who are
supposed to have at the heart of the reason for being here, one
of their most elemental duties being to provide protection and
safety for the citizens of our country, would put together an
omnibus bill of this nature that has good little aspects, silly
little aspects and unexplainable little aspects in it. It makes
no sense to me at all.
Grown men and women have put together a document that is all
over the map, so we will be asking for some amendments. We want
some things in here that will clearly define animal cruelty for
the farmers and harvesters of animals who earn a living doing
what they do. According to what I see as written, it could be
very dangerous to these people in their activities and could
cause a lot of grief.
There are some really good reasons why someone would brand an
animal but it is painful. If members do not believe me they
should come out to Alberta sometime. I will take them to a
branding party and show them that it is painful.
Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether you go fishing, but if you
catch one on your little hook and you plan to take it home to eat
because it is good for your diet, do you let it flop to death or
use a stick to club it on the head? You would probably club it
on the head. Wait a minute, Mr. Speaker, the way the bill is
written it could be construed as cruelty to animals. I would be
the last one in this place, Mr. Speaker, to want to see you toted
off to court so a judge could decide, on behalf of all these
brilliant ladies and gentlemen who put these documents together,
whether or not it was against the law because these people cannot
put something together that clearly defines what it is they mean.
I think the intent of the bill, particularly the intent on
cruelty to animals, is good. I think it is well-intended.
However, surely most of the people in here have a brain bigger
than the fish that I was talking about. Surely their brain ought
to operate a little bit to know that the bill needs some
clarification.
Surely the government members would not want a group of people
hauled off to a court so a judge could decide for these wonderful
people what it is they are trying to say in a bill. Why can they
not say what they mean? Why can they not clarify the bill? What
does it mean? I read it and the meaning is not there. It does
not clarify whether a farmer will be charged because he dehorns.
Dehorning is painful. Clarity in the definitions is not there.
It will take some amendments to do it. It will be tested in
committee when amendments are brought forward to make it a better
bill, to make it a bill with a little common sense and allow
people to understand what the intent of the government is.
1355
To the member on the government side who is doing all the
heckling and yelling about what the bill does, I am afraid it
does nothing at all. It is not clear at all. What would we
expect from a Liberal government except unclarity? What would we
expect from a Liberal government except high hopes that a
document will be placed before a judge some day so the judge can
once again decide for Canadians what the law will be and what it
will not be. The Liberals do not have the courage or the
intestinal fortitude to make the kind of laws that say what they
mean.
They are doing a fine job at jumbling them all up. They jumble
them all up so no one can point the finger in their direction and
say that they are not doing their job very well. They are not.
Believe me, Canadians of today recognize how the government deals
with justice and they do not like it. I can understand why.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
THE PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
Mr. Murray Calder (Dufferin—Peel—Wellington—Grey,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we will have the occasion tomorrow
outside the Chamber to reflect back on an incident which
occurred during the 12th Parliament of Canada. On the night of
February 3, 1916, the former Centre Block building burned to the
ground. One of the few remaining artifacts to survive the blaze
was the Victoria Tower Bell which continued to chime the hour
until the stroke of midnight that February night.
I am happy to announce that a restored monument incorporating the
bell will be unveiled tomorrow, September 27, at noon behind the
Library of Parliament, facing the Ottawa River.
The Canadian Bankers Association has generously contributed
financial support for the refurbishing of the bell monument and
to have it prominently displayed for the many tourists who visit
Parliament Hill.
I invite you, Mr. Speaker, and all my colleagues here to attend
the ceremony and to learn about this fascinating event in our
parliamentary history.
* * *
CHURCHES
Mr. Philip Mayfield (Cariboo—Chilcotin, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, beginning in 1883 the social
reformers in the government and the churches developed a system
of residential schools across Canada for native children.
The common wisdom of the day was that these were necessary for
resocializing native children to integrate them into
non-aboriginal world. For some the experience was beneficial.
For many it was painful and harmful.
The Canadian Encyclopedia, page 2007, tells us that:
From the 1890s till the 1950s the government tried
constantly to shift the burden of the schools onto the churches,
whose members made donations, and the students, whose labour was
a contribution.
Today's government is doing the same thing, attempting to place
its responsibilities on the backs of the parishioners of the
churches. Many of our churches face financial ruin by this
callous action of the government.
I call on the Minister of Justice to acknowledge the
responsibility of the government for these failed social policies
and ask her to stop dragging the churches into the courts as
third parties to evade her own responsibilities.
* * *
1400
[Translation]
LIBERAL PARTY OF CANADA
Mr. Denis Paradis (Brome—Missisquoi, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am
very pleased to welcome two new members to the big Liberal
family: the hon. members for Shefford and Compton—Stanstead.
After much reflection, they have decided to join the ranks of
the Liberal Party of Canada. I congratulate them for responding
to the wishes of their constituents in this way.
When I was elected in the 1995 byelection, and again in the
general election in 1997, my constant message was this: let us
not divide the federalist vote.
As a continuation of that message, I am delighted to welcome my
two new Liberal colleagues. The federal Liberal team is
strengthened by their presence, and the entire Eastern Township
region will reap the benefit.
* * *
ANNE MONTMINY
Mr. Clifford Lincoln (Lac-Saint-Louis, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would
like to express our warmest congratulations to Anne Montminy of
my riding for her bronze medal win at the Sydney Olympics in the
10 metre dive. This is the first time Canada has ever won a
medal in this event.
This exceptional honour could not have gone to a more
accomplished or more likeable athlete.
[English]
Anne Montminy is a wonderful human being and an example to our
youth everywhere. It took untold courage and perseverance to
come back from the setback in Atlanta in 1996 and reach the very
top of world excellence in Sydney. Anne deserves our warmest
thanks for her courage and her class and our very best wishes in
her new career as a lawyer.
[Translation]
I thank Anne Montminy.
* * *
[English]
LARYSSA BISSENTHAL
Mr. Ovid L. Jackson (Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, today I rise to congratulate a great Canadian. Laryssa
Bissenthal of Walkerton, Ontario again captured bronze at the
Olympic Games in Sydney, Australia. Laryssa is the daughter of
Dave and Carolyn Bissenthal of Walkerton, Ontario.
We in Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound and Walkerton are proud of
Laryssa. She has made us proud for the second time in a row. I
say to Laryssa: “You are a great Canadian. We are proud of you
and you are great for all the young people of Canada”.
* * *
SOFTWOOD LUMBER
Mr. John Duncan (Vancouver Island North, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the federal government is exposing
taxpayers to a risk that could cost hundreds of millions of
dollars.
Pope & Talbot Lumber Company is suing under NAFTA because of
what it says is unfair treatment in its amount of softwood lumber
quota. The government is refusing to provide background documents
to explain how its softwood quota was established. Without these
documents the NAFTA tribunal is more likely to decide against
Canada.
The government must demonstrate that favouritism and political
considerations did not influence quota decisions. By agreeing to
the 1996 softwood lumber agreement and then setting up a secret
and flawed administration, the government has invited this NAFTA
challenge. The softwood agreement has already cost Canadians
billions. It is time for the government to demonstrate that it
has nothing to hide.
* * *
[Translation]
CANADIAN HOT AIR BALLOON CHAMPIONSHIP
Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): Mr. Speaker, this summer,
the Canadian Hot Air Balloon Championship was held as part of
the Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu Festival de montgolfières M. Christie.
Denis Unsworth, a pilot in my riding, turned in a brilliant
performance to win the prestigious event.
With its great technical complexity, this championship is the
pinnacle of hot air balloon competition and Mr. Unsworth led the
field of a dozen Canadian participants.
He is also Quebec champion, and turned in his winning
performance aboard the Fierté, which sports the colours of the
fleur-de-lis. He is the first pilot to win the Canadian
championship for the third time.
In 2002, Mr. Unsworth will take part in the world championship
in Châtellerault, France.
On behalf of the Bloc Quebecois, I am proud to pay tribute to
Mr. Unsworth, the Canadian hot air balloon champion, and wish
him good luck at the world championship in 2002.
* * *
[English]
GARY O'DWYER
Hon. Christine Stewart (Northumberland, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I rise today to acknowledge the hard work and commitment
of Mr. Gary O'Dwyer. Mr. O'Dwyer is a noted teacher at St.
Mary's Secondary School in Cobourg and is one of 12 teachers
nationwide to be nominated to receive the 2000 Governor General's
award for excellence in teaching Canadian history.
A national award, it recognizes teachers for their dynamic and
innovative approach to teaching Canadian history. Mr. O'Dwyer
started a speakers forum at the school 16 years ago allowing
students to interact with noted speakers from around the world.
Through dialogue and debate in class, touring outside the class,
students have experienced and participated in dynamic discussions
of such topics as war and peace, the holocaust, religious
intolerance and international development issues.
1405
National leaders and more humble participants, including victims
of history, have been part of Mr. O'Dwyer's well-respected
speakers forum. Notable to me was the cold war era meeting of
the Soviet Union and American war veterans discussing war and
peace. Eye-opening, mind-opening experiences all.
* * *
TAXATION
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, we are all aware of the tax free transfer of the
mysterious $2.2 billion trust which was transferred to the United
States on behalf of a wealthy, well-known family. This family
received a tax free coupon from the government saving them $800
million in taxes.
The government is not only refusing to open the books on this
questionable transfer but it is using taxpayer money to delay
the courts from looking into this matter.
Two levels of court have ruled that a trial should be held into
the merits of this questionable transfer. The auditor general
believes that this transaction may have circumvented the law on
capital gains and has been unable to obtain minutes of secret
meetings which were held to permit this dramatic loss of tax
revenues.
Who is the government trying to protect? What is the government
trying to hide? Where has the money gone? Why does this
government insist on helping their rich friends?
MPs are sent to Ottawa to seek the truth and speak the truth.
When will taxpayers get the truth?
* * *
[Translation]
CANADIAN ALLIANCE
Ms. Eleni Bakopanos (Ahuntsic, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, once again,
there is dissension in the ranks of the Canadian Alliance.
Unlike their leader, members of his party feel that simple
possession of marijuana should be decriminalized.
The party's critic, who is now drafting the party's justice
policy, supports decriminalization for simple possession of less
than 30 grams of marijuana.
[English]
This is the sort of issue that clearly demonstrates to Canadians
the confusion that reigns in Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition. I
am sure the leader of the Alliance will continue to allow
confusion to reign on this and other issues during the next
election not for policy but for political expediency.
* * *
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Ms. Louise Hardy (Yukon, NDP): Mr. Speaker, unfortunately
Liberal aboriginal policy persistently defaults on treaties and
written agreements. On the west coast, a group of young
aboriginals feel they must occupy the fishery minister's office
to protect aboriginal rights on the east coast. In Alberta, the
Lubicon struggle to resolve their longstanding claim. In Quebec,
Domtar logs on unceded land. In the Yukon, fees are imposed on
permits and licences, even though 16.4.10 of the claims
agreement clearly prohibits this. From coast to coast to coast
the divide between aboriginal and non-aboriginal Canadians is
widening.
If we are to repair this breach it is imperative that we honour
the existing treaties right now.
* * *
[Translation]
ASBESTOS
Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien (Frontenac—Mégantic, BQ): Mr. Speaker, today
in Montreal, communities in the Asbestos and Thetford regions
are launching a pro asbestos movement. This dynamic
organization will act as a counterweight internationally to the
anti asbestos lobby, which for a number of years has been
lowering the value of this product, with its exceptional
qualities.
I congratulate the workers who initiated this movement and its
spokespersons, Laurent Lessard and Rolland Beaulieu. I also
wish them considerable success in the many projects they have
planned, including a visit to Geneva in support of Quebec City
and Ottawa, which are appealing the decision of the WTO on
France's ban on asbestos.
I invite the Council of Canadians and the NDP, which oppose
Ottawa's appeal in this matter, to follow the activities of the
pro asbestos movement. Their position makes it clear once again
how little they know Quebecers and how incapable they are of
defending their interests.
* * *
MERCAZ
Mr. Irwin Cotler (Mount Royal, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like
to offer my most sincere congratulations to a charitable
organization in my riding, Mercaz, on its annual food drive
aimed at fighting hunger and poverty.
Since 1993, Mercaz has provided food, clothing and household
articles to new immigrants and low income families.
The last drive was a success. Thanks to the generosity of the
people in our riding and the help of some 100 young people, over
15,000 non perishable items were collected.
* * *
[English]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Ms. Angela Vautour (Beauséjour—Petitcodiac, PC): Mr.
Speaker, seasonal workers may not find a comfortable home with
either the Liberals or the Reform Alliance.
1410
The Liberals are bragging about a $12 billion surplus, of which
about half belongs to the workers and employers. EI dollars are
not going to the unemployed who desperately need help.
Yesterday the member for Calgary—Nose Hill revealed her party's
position on low income seasonal workers when she said “Seasonal
workers already earn a comfortable income”.
I would like to present some figures. In 1996, before the
Liberals slashed the EI program, 75% of seasonal workers in New
Brunswick made less than $10,000 a year. Is the member saying
that $10,000 a year is a comfortable income?
The Liberals were well aware of these figures before they chose
to slash the EI program. How can they justify their cuts knowing
that 75% of seasonal workers in just one province were already
living well below the poverty line?
* * *
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. John McKay (Scarborough East, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, one
of the most difficult issues facing Canadian society is the
litigation concerning aboriginal schools. It brings the
Government of Canada, a number of major churches and aggrieved
aboriginal complainants into the courtrooms of the nations to
settle one of the most vexatious issues of our time.
The courts, however well-meaning, are among the least qualified
forums for settlement and reconciliation. At the end of the day,
if it ever comes, a lot of money will change hands, a small
number of lawyers will do very well, the complainants less well,
the churches will be bankrupt and our society diminished.
There will be no healing in the lives of the complainants. The
money will dissipate with alarming rapidity and the healing so
necessary in the lives of litigants will happen outside the
courts, if at all.
Courts by definition exaggerate the distance between litigants,
exaggerate lines of hostility and protract issues. It is the
nature of the beast and, arguably, the last place to deal with
the issues.
I call upon the Government of Canada to follow the lead of South
Africa and set up a truth and reconciliation—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Fredericton.
* * *
BRAIN TUMOUR FOUNDATION OF CANADA
Hon. Andy Scott (Fredericton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, next
month is the designated Brain Tumour Awareness Month in Canada.
Brain tumours are located at the control centre for thought,
emotion and movement and their effects on an individual's
physical and cognitive abilities can be devastating.
Whether benign or malignant, a brain tumour can leave its
recipient visually impaired, hearing impaired, overcome with
seizures or even paralyzed. Each year 10,000 Canadians are
diagnosed with a brain tumour and more than 100 different types
have been identified.
Improving the outlook for children and adults with a brain
tumour requires research. Since 1982 the Brain Tumour Foundation
of Canada has raised $1 million. On behalf of all members, I
commend the Brain Tumour Foundation of Canada for their good work
on behalf of all Canadians.
* * *
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Rick Casson (Lethbridge, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, like many farm families across Canada, Ontario grain and
oilseed producers are suffering because of record low commodity
prices, poor weather and inadequate support from the federal
government.
In the past, Ontario farmers have received some relief from
foreign subsidies from the market revenue insurance program.
Created in 1991 to address specific income problems caused by
U.S. and European subsidies, MRI is the best safety net program
for many grain and oilseed producers in Ontario.
However, the integrity of the MRI program is threatened by the
federal government's insistence that the remainder of the $112
million in federal funds previously contributed to the MRI
account be refunded after this crop year. This early termination
stands in stark contrast with the new federal-provincial safety
net program which extends to 2002-03.
Given this government's weak record on farm support, what
guarantee can the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-food give
Ontario farmers that their market revenue insurance program will
remain viable?
* * *
ATLANTIC CANADIANS
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I want to inform the House and all
Canadians that I am not a lazy maritimer.
The recent comments by John Mykytyshyn of the Alliance Party, a
senior policy advisor, as well as the comments yesterday in the
House by the hon. member for Calgary—Nose Hill, demonstrates
what the Alliance Party thinks of us in Atlantic Canada.
I, my colleagues and all elected representatives who serve the
over 3 million Atlantic Canadians, many of whom have moved to
other parts of Canada, wish to inform the leader of the Alliance
Party and the Alliance Party itself that we are not only some of
the finest people in the entire country and in the entire world,
we are also caring and sharing people as well.
It is about time the official opposition realized what truly
great people live in Atlantic Canada.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
1415
[English]
TAXATION
Mr. Stockwell Day (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, this is the day. If the Alliance
motion passes to reduce gas taxes then the charge of tax on
gasoline will be reduced by 3.3 cents per litre.
Without referring to any of the excuses of last week, why will
the Prime Minister not agree to a gas tax break for Canadians?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, this is the Chrétien believing very much in responsible
government. I have said and have repeated many times that we are
looking at all the options.
We are not sure that the option of a reduction in tax will be
passed on to consumers. We have to make sure that if we move, we
move to make sure that those who we want to help are helped. We
may choose another way.
Mr. Stockwell Day (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, that is what we thought, no action at
all.
On September 14 the finance minister, when talking to the
Toronto Board of Trade, was quoted as saying that high marginal
tax rates in the country are a burden on middle class incomes.
It has also been recorded by the World Economic Council on
Competitiveness that interestingly over the last year the United
States has moved from second to first place in terms of
international competitiveness. Ireland has moved from tenth to
fifth place and Canada has dropped. Will the Prime Minister
change his high tax policies which continue to be a drag on our
economy?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we have worked very hard on the reduction of taxes.
There were some measures two years ago and some last year. Some
came into force in July. We have also reduced the capital gains
tax. We are doing it step by step.
Here is what one person said about the most recent federal
budget: “I am saying this live and on television: We give
credit to the Minister of Finance and the federal government for
some of the good things in that budget. I give them full credit
for some of the good things they did in terms of reducing income
taxes for all Canadians. Good for them”. The Leader of the
Opposition said this in Alberta on February 29.
Mr. Stockwell Day (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister continues to be
transfixed with my record and I am excited about that. There is
another record we need to talk about.
It is estimated by the Council on Business Issues that the
Canadian government lost approximately $350 million in revenues
as a result of brain drain. If the Prime Minister will not
reduce taxes to keep young Canadians at home, will he at least
reduce taxes to keep his own revenues at home?
1420
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have replied to that. We are very active in making
sure that young Canadians have opportunities in Canada. It is
why we created the Canada Foundation for Innovation which is
helping people in research and development. We have created the
chairs of excellence which are a model to the world.
We are making a lot of effort. I could go on and on about other
initiatives of the government. It is a very simplistic notion
that a tax cut would cure all the ills of the nation. It is very
naive.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, it would certainly be a great start, that is for sure.
Let us look at the government's tax record and the Prime
Minister's record on letting his government backbenchers vote
freely.
The hon. member for Lac-Saint-Louis said that he and his
colleagues are “typecast as if we are all stupid—we are just
supposed to be voting machines”. That is from a government
member.
The vote on the gas tax is tonight. I would like to know from
the Prime Minister, honestly, if he is going to make his caucus
feel stupid again.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, talking about a free vote, I remember a person in the
House by the name of Jan Brown and another by the name of Jim
Silye who were kicked out. The hon. member for Esquimalt—Juan
de Fuca was demoted after he disagreed with his party's position
on Bosnia. We can ask the hon. member for Langley—Abbotsford
who disagreed with his leader.
Mr. John Nunziata: Did you forget about me?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien: I would like to say that some
are very much in favour of reform in the House. In 1993 the
Leader of the Opposition chaired the Special Select Committee on
Parliamentary Reform in Alberta—
The Speaker: Order, please. The hon. member for Edmonton
North.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I hear echoes in the back of the Chamber from the
hon. member to York South—Weston.
Let us look at hepatitis C. Let us look at child pornography.
Let us look at the GST. There is a long list of what is—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. The hon. member for Edmonton
North.
Miss Deborah Grey: It is noisy, Mr. Speaker. Let us look
at hepatitis C. Let us look at child pornography. Let us look
at the GST and the pathetic record of the government when these
issues have come on the floor of the House of Commons in the
past.
The Prime Minister has forced his backbenchers to vote his way,
even when it meant facing their constituents and themselves in
shame. The vote is tonight. What will it be? Freedom or shame?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, some are for reform of the institution. The chairman of
the committee in Alberta in 1993 recommended this. Listen to
this. Perhaps we should have this here. He recommended that
committees should not be allowed to issue minority reports.
In the House last week he was challenged by the Minister of
Finance to permit his party to vote for the amendment of the hon.
member for Pickering—Ajax—Uxbridge and he did not give freedom
to his members to vote for this motion.
* * *
[Translation]
YOUNG OFFENDERS ACT
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Minister of Justice has said 17 times in this House that her
young offenders bill guaranteed the flexibility needed to enable
Quebec to act on its choices.
Does she still maintain that her bill has the flexibility to
enable Quebec to continue operating as it has done in the past?
[English]
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Yes, Mr. Speaker, in fact I do.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, if
the minister's claims are true, how does she explain the fact
that she had to amend clause 60.1 of the bill with respect to
crimes of violence for young people aged 14 or 15 other than to
give Quebec greater latitude?
1425
In other words, will she admit that without this amendment
Quebec would not have the flexibility it needs to apply the law
in accordance with its own objectives? She had to amend it
because there was no flexibility. She ought to do likewise with
the rest.
[English]
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the government has listened to
the many witnesses who appeared before the committee in relation
to Bill C-3.
In response to that we introduced a number of amendments. Let
me reassure the hon. leader of the third party that those
amendments have three purposes: to decrease complexity in the
legislation, to increase clarity, and to increase flexibility to
all provinces and territories that choose to use it.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Minister of Justice continues, as always, to claim that her bill
allows Quebec all possible flexibility to continue to apply the
Young Offenders Act.
If this is true, why does the minister not agree to include a
real right to opt out in her Bill C-3, so as to allow Quebec to
continue to apply the Young Offenders Act, rather than
absolutely forcing Quebec to use the repressive approach of Bill
C-3?
[English]
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, because in fact that which the
hon. member suggested is not necessary. Within Bill C-3 there is
all necessary flexibility for the province of Quebec to continue
to deal with youth justice issues in the way it does presently.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Mr. Speaker, no
one in Quebec shares the minister's opinion on this.
How can she maintain a position which makes it impossible to
solve the young offender problem in less than 30 minutes in this
Chamber, particularly when she is being asked to put down in
writing, in black and white, as part of her Bill C-3, what she
has been telling us here in the House for the past 28 months,
and what she has repeated 17 times in response to a question
asked of her in this House?
[English]
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in fact our youth justice
legislation applies in all provinces and territories. As I have
said before, there is sufficient flexibility in the legislation
to ensure that the province of Quebec can continue to do that
which it is presently doing in relation to youth justice.
* * *
THE ENVIRONMENT
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
federal Liberals are hiding out on water quality issues. On
Toronto's insane proposal to cart its garbage to Kirkland Lake,
they had an opportunity to launch a full federal environmental
assessment but they took a pass.
Why did the federal government refuse to stand up for safe
drinking water? Is it Quebec's drinking water it does not care
about? Is it Ontario's? Is it first nations' drinking water it
does not care about, or does the federal Liberal government just
not care, period?
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of the Environment, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, the province of Ontario carried out an extensive
environmental assessment of the proposal of the Adams mine.
The federal government has recently received petitions asking
that this be looked into. In accordance with the law, I have
given the task to the Environmental Assessment Office to look at
the questions raised and report back to me so that again in
accordance with the law I can make a decision as to whether or
not to proceed.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
speaking of garbage, the minister's answer is pure garbage. It
is bureaucratic crap. What is the minister—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. We are moving to very
strong language. I ask the hon. leader to please be very
judicious in her choice of words.
Ms. Alexa McDonough: Mr. Speaker, I will certainly
withdraw the words, but I will not withdraw the request for the
federal government to get on with a full federal environmental
assessment.
What is the minister waiting for? If the government will not
launch a full federal environmental assessment of its own to get
the job done, why does it not just post a sign “Polluted
drinking water brought to you by your federal Liberal friends?”
1430
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of the Environment, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I did not think that as a member of the House I
would hear a leader of a political party refer to the laws made
by parliament and this administration following the laws made by
parliament in such derisory language.
The fact is the request has been made. The agency has been
asked. When the agency reports in accordance with the law, I
will deal with the report of the agency once again in accordance
with the law. I will not countenance the recommendation of the
hon. leader of the New Democratic Party that I should ignore my
statutory responsibilities on a piece of legislation passed by
parliament.
* * *
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, when
asked four months ago, the Minister of National Defence denied
that his government was planning to award a sole source contract
to Eurocopter to replace our Sea King helicopters. Having
reviewed the statement of requirement and letter of interest, it
is now very clear that Eurocopter has a sizeable advantage over
its competition.
Will the minister explain to the House why this entire process
which he has put in place so clearly favours Eurocopter?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we are putting in place a fair, open and
transparent process. On top of that we are going to save over
$1.5 billion from what her party would have inflicted upon us if
we had proceeded with its particular proposal.
We are going through a period of time where we have asked the
various competitive prospects to tell us about the letter of
interest that we have put out and to tell us about the requests
for proposals in draft form. We are awaiting their further
comments on the matter. We will assess it at that time and
determine if we need to make any changes. We all want to have a
fair, open and transparent process.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, it is
not fair and it is not open. I can tell you that.
It is obvious to anyone who looks at the maritime helicopter
replacement program that both E.H. Industries and Sikorsky are
out of the running even before the race gets started. The Sea
King replacement specs prove that the Prime Minister is only
interested in the Eurocopter Cougar.
Will the Prime Minister put politics aside for the sake of the
military, make the bidding process fair and finally correct the
mistake he made years ago when he cancelled the EH-101?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I said a moment ago, that cancellation
is saving the taxpayers a lot of money. It is also getting us a
better helicopter to meet our needs of today.
Furthermore what the government has adopted is a statement of
requirement that was put forward by the Canadian forces, by the
Department of National Defence, to make sure we meet the
operational needs.
* * *
FISHERIES
Mr. John Cummins (Delta—South Richmond, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, this morning in committee, fisheries
officials made some startling admissions about the Miramichi
lobster fishery. They admitted that lobster stocks are in
serious decline. They admitted that the increased fishing had an
adverse effect on conservation. What is most troubling is they
admitted that they fudged catch numbers so that the minister
could claim conservation was a priority.
Why are fisheries officials deliberately fudging numbers just to
make the minister look good?
Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal (Minister of Fisheries and
Oceans, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we did have officials go to the
fisheries committee but certainly that is not what happened at
the fisheries committee.
They were there to inform them about the Marshall situation and
the actions we have taken on enforcement. The lobster stock is
doing very well. Fisheries are doing well. It is one of the
best maintained fisheries that we have. We want to make sure that
we continue to maintain that fishery so that our fishermen and
all Canadians can benefit from that resource. We will continue
to do that.
Mr. John Cummins (Delta—South Richmond, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the minister ought to expedite the
publication of the blues so that he can straighten himself up
about what went on this morning.
The fact is the minister's officials also admitted that
enforcement on Miramichi Bay was determined by their view of
public opinion, not conservation or the rule of law.
When did perception and image become more important than
conservation?
1435
Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal (Minister of Fisheries and
Oceans, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, once again the hon. member is
making things up as he goes along.
Clearly the decisions we have made are based on conservation.
Our scientists had a technical briefing and provided all the
information as to the actions we have taken. Our actions are
taken to make sure we conserve the resource. Conservation is our
first priority. The hon. member should stick to the facts
instead of making them up as he goes along.
* * *
[Translation]
BUDGET SURPLUSES
Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): Mr. Speaker, last
week, the Minister of Finance refused to confirm the Bloc
Quebecois' forecasts putting the surplus at $20 billion this
year. The minister justified his refusal by saying that he was
waiting for the opinion of the country's top economists.
Since Standard & Poor's, the Toronto Dominion Bank, the Royal
Bank and all the others are anticipating a surplus of between
$18 and $21 billion, is it not time for the government to tell
the truth and to admit that we must have a debate now on how to
properly use that money?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International Financial
Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the debate is getting better
all the time.
Two years ago, the Bloc Quebecois asked for a mini budget
because of a potential recession. Last year, it asked for a mini
budget because of tax reductions. This year, it is because of a
huge surplus.
As they say in baseball “Three strikes and you are out”.
Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): Mr. Speaker, how
could we not ask for corrective measures, when the Minister of
Finance keeps fibbing and is off by 100% to 300% in his
forecasts? We ask for corrective measures every year, but it is
because the minister is not doing his job properly.
Instead of hiding behind budget forecasts that no longer make
any sense, should the Prime Minister not table a mini budget
that would include tax reductions, a temporary suspension of the
excise tax on gasoline and corrective measures to the employment
insurance program? These are the real issues, the real
priorities, and the government has the means to take such
measures. It must take action.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
am truly pleased that the hon. member finds that things are
going very well in Canada. I thank him for that.
I am very pleased to hear an opposition member say that the
government is in a position to lower taxes and to take all sorts
of measures.
I hope that, when we introduce bills to that effect, we will
enjoy the support of the Bloc Quebecois.
* * *
[English]
CORRECTIONAL SERVICE CANADA
Mr. Stockwell Day (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, for the last several days Canadians
have had to witness news reports of the partying and other
excesses that go on in our jails, especially as related to Karla
Homolka and her friends. We asked the solicitor general to simply
put a stop to it. He said he could not.
Will the Prime Minister, who purports to represent the people,
please give a direct order to his solicitor general to put an end
to these painful displays that we as Canadians have to watch, and
that the families of murdered victims have to watch? Would he
please simply give the order to put an end to this now?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Solicitor General of Canada,
Lib.): Make no mistake about it, Mr. Speaker. I am not
standing in the House to defend Karla Homolka. What I am
defending is a system that works to protect public safety better
than any other. Correctional Service Canada has a job to do.
Offenders are punished and attempts are made to rehabilitate
them. That is its mandate. That is what it is doing.
Mr. Stockwell Day (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): It is amazing, Mr. Speaker, to see the Liberals
applaud nothing happening to stop this. It goes on, whether we
are talking about golfing, fishing or other activities that
people in jail are allowed to do. We understand that drug users
in jail are assisted in their drug and needle cleaning program by
Correctional Service Canada, but diabetics—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
1440
The Speaker: Order, please. I would hope that all
members would want to listen to the questions. We listen to the
answers. The hon. Leader of the Opposition may begin his
question.
Mr. Stockwell Day: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the
Prime Minister directly. There is the partying, the golfing and
the fishing. Now we understand that drug users in our jails are
provided with the ability to clean their needles and continue on
with their own private drug program while hardworking Canadian
diabetics must assume the costs of their own needle program.
Will the Prime Minister put a stop to this in the jails and send
the message to Canadians, to families and to young people that we
believe in being law-abiding citizens and there are rewards for
that?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Solicitor General of Canada,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if my hon. colleague across the way is
indicating there is a needle exchange program in the prison
system, there is not.
* * *
[Translation]
TRANSPORTATION OF MOX
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in
secret, unbeknownst to anyone, the MOX arrived in Chalk River,
Ontario, where Atomic Energy of Canada Limited will be doing
experiments.
How could the minister of natural resources say in this House
that he was complying with the recommendations of Dr. Edwin
Lymann, the director of the Nuclear Control Institute in
Washington, who says that Transport Canada took none of his
comments into consideration?
[English]
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, there was an extensive public review period with respect
to this particular project. That review period together with all
of the other procedures that applied were in complete compliance
with the Canadian Nuclear Safety and Control Act, the Canadian
Environmental Assessment Act, the Transportation of Dangerous
Goods Act, the requirements of the International Atomic Energy
Agency and the requirements of the International Civil Aviation
Organization.
We have the most stringent regulatory regime in the world to
protect public health and safety in the environment and we intend
to keep it that way.
[Translation]
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, how does
the minister explain the transportation of MOX by air over
Canada, when American law prohibits the transportation of this
highly dangerous product in American airspace?
Why do the people of Canada need less protection from their
government than the Americans do from theirs?
[English]
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, in Canada we follow the laws of Canada, not the laws of
the United States of America. Our practices in this regard are
completely consistent for example with those that apply in
Europe. MOX fuel has been transported in Europe by air since
1973 at the rate of at least six shipments per year. Obviously
this is not out of the ordinary.
* * *
CORRECTIONAL SERVICE CANADA
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, while Karla Homolka is having a jolly good time in
Joliette, Christopher Higginbottom who is serving 11 years in
Warkworth for pornography and other sexual offences is currently
being investigated for participating in a child pornography ring.
Can the solicitor general please explain to Canadians how it can
possibly be that a child pornography ring is operating in our
penitentiaries?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Solicitor General of Canada,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I can assure my hon. colleague that this
is under investigation. Any activity like this that can happen
when we are dealing with individuals in the penitentiary system
is investigated and will be investigated.
Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby,
Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the
solicitor general.
The whole country knows that the Liberals cannot manage. They
cannot control drugs in prisons so they just give up. There is a
trade in child porn inside the prison and they just wonder how it
happens. The minister and his department have known of their
management problems for years. In fact, the prisons seem to be
con run.
In view of the deteriorating situation, what action has the
minister taken? What will he do rather than just study it? What
action will he take? Will he actually manage rather than limply
monitor his responsibility?
1445
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Solicitor General of Canada,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for giving me
the opportunity to indicate that we now have ion scanners in
every medium and maximum institution in the country, which is
very important. Random searches are done on a regular basis and
drug dogs are used frequently.
The most important thing to note is that from 1993 to date there
has been a reduction from 39% to 12% in random tests. We are
making progress and will continue to make progress.
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the Minister of Human Resources
Development confirmed that her questionable decision on the
rules of eligibility and the number of weeks of benefits
available to the unemployed in the Lower St. Lawrence, North
Shore and Charlevoix regions created two classes of unemployed
persons, those entitled to 21 weeks of benefits, if they have
worked at least 525 weeks, and those entitled to 32 weeks of
benefits, if they have worked 420 hours, depending on whether
they were accepted before or after September 17, 2000.
Will the minister put an end to this unconscionable
discrimination, which will force workers and their families to
apply for social assistance?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let me remind the hon. member yet again
that in response to representations made by seasonal workers we
are phasing in the changes to the employment insurance boundaries
that reflect overall employment levels in those communities.
I also remind him that we have transitional funds available
precisely for these workers to help them deal with the
opportunities that may exist and to reflect their need for
employment insurance.
The Minister of National Revenue and I are working in those
communities and developing community groups to help us build new
opportunities. I hope the hon. member will join—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Brampton
West—Mississauga.
* * *
YUGOSLAVIA
Ms. Colleen Beaumier (Brampton West—Mississauga, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, in recent days we have watched the people of the
Federal Republic of Yugoslavia courageously participate widely in
the presidential elections, despite facing an electoral process
that may not be fair and free.
What is Canada's reaction to recent unofficial reports that the
voters have elected opposition candidate Kostunica?
[Translation]
Mr. Denis Paradis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we applaud the courage of
all citizens of Yugoslavia, who turned out in massive numbers to
vote, in a context clearly devoid of freedom and justice.
We encourage the Yugoslavian authorities to recognize the will
of the people, and hope to see the Federal Republic of
Yugoslavia rejoin the society of democratic nations.
[English]
As soon as a government committed to reform and reconciliation
is in place we will initiate the removing of sanctions, ending
the isolation of Yugoslavia and increasing assistance to support
political and economic reform.
* * *
HEALTH
Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, universality in health care does not
exist. Tim Jeffries, a Canadian, was lying on an operating room
table at the Peace Arch hospital in White Rock waiting for
surgery to repair a broken ankle. However, when the medical
staff learned that his health care premiums had lapsed, they
refused to operate on Jeffries unless he came up with $1,300 cash
or a credit card.
Where was the Minister of Health to protect the principle of
universality when Tim Jeffries was taken off that operating
table?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
indeed we are there to protect the principles of universality.
The Leader of the Opposition expressed the fond hope last week
that in view of the agreement for medicare renewal health care
would not be an issue in the coming election. We are here to
tell him that health care will be an issue in the coming election
but perhaps not the way he would like to see it.
The issue will be whether Canadians support the Alliance
approach of gutting the Canada Health Act, turning over all
revenue to the provinces and taking Ottawa out of the position to
enforce the principles. That will not happen.
Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley,
Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, under the minister's watch
Tim Jeffries was left to be taken out of the operating room.
Tim Jeffries is not alone. It is estimated that 200,000 British
Columbians are not covered. That is almost 5% of the population
of that province who are not covered under that provincial health
plan, which is a contravention of the Canada Health Act. What
has the self-proclaimed defender of the Canada Health Act done?
Absolutely nothing.
How could Canadians possibly believe that the minister will
defend universality and the Canadian Health Act?
1450
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
we will be there to do just that, but we would not be if we
followed the policies of the Alliance. The Alliance would turn
all the revenues over to the provinces. As the Leader of the
Opposition said in his letter to the premiers, the Alliance would
leave it to the provinces to interpret the Canada Health Act.
The Leader of the Opposition would give provinces the right to
withdraw from all social programs with compensation. That would
result in 10 different health care systems across the country. We
would lose something that is part of the foundation of the
nation. That will be an issue in the next federal election.
Canadians will choose the Liberal vision—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Vancouver East.
* * *
CHILD CARE
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
Liberal government takes the cake when it comes to broken
promises to kids. Seven years of broken promises has produced
exactly zero spaces for child care in Canada. The latest reports
today show that these broken promises are now taking a high toll
in terms of inadequate funding and undervalued work in child
care.
I have a question for the Prime Minister. Why has the
government abandoned its commitment to create quality and
accessible child care spaces for seven years? Why have they not
been created for parents and children?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on the contrary, the investments that the
government has made on behalf of our youngest citizens are quite
extraordinary. We are celebrating an agreement made on September
11 among all leaders of the country where they put children
first.
This government has identified $2.2 billion that will be
transferred to the provinces and the territories precisely to
build new opportunities, services and accessibility for our
youngest citizens. I do not know where the hon. member has been.
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I
do not know why the minister is celebrating. She avoids the
question. She knows that the child tax benefit did not create
child care spaces. Even in this recent agreement there is no
binding commitment that will guarantee child care spaces.
The real issue is that at the end of the day the government is
prepared to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on political
propaganda for ads, never mind the cost of running those ads, but
not one child care space has been created. How does the minister
justify that? Where is the celebration?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member does not have to listen
to me. Perhaps she would rather listen to the NDP premier in
British Columbia who said thank you to the federal government for
coming through with more money, not just for broader health care
but for children.
What we are trying to do across the country, and particularly in
British Columbia, is essentially build a better future for our
children. It is important that we recognize that what happened
in Ottawa this week is a very good beginning for doing the
further work that needs to be done in this area. In British
Columbia the money will be used for child care.
* * *
FUEL TAXES
Right Hon. Joe Clark (Kings—Hants, PC): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Prime Minister and relates to the high cost
of home heating fuels. The Prime Minister indicated today that
there might be another way, an alternative to cutting the GST on
home heating fuels.
Will the Prime Minister tell the House whether his government is
now seriously considering the direct rebate to consumers such as
was proposed by the member for Pickering—Ajax—Uxbridge? In any
event, will he take action this week on either a rebate or the
elimination of the GST on home heating fuels so that Canadians,
particularly senior citizens, will not face the terrible
burdens—
The Speaker: The Right Hon. Prime Minister.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we are looking at all the options. There are many ways.
The Minister of Finance mentioned many options last week. We
have always said that the best way to help consumers is to reduce
income taxes, for example. It is a nice way to put money back
into the pockets of all the people in Canada. We are looking at
all the options.
The budget will come down in February. Some are suggesting a
mini budget or a statement by the Minister of Finance. We are
looking at all the options. The Minister of Finance will be back
in the House this week and we are following the situation—
The Speaker: The Right Hon. leader of the Progressive
Conservative Party.
1455
Right Hon. Joe Clark (Kings—Hants, PC): Mr. Speaker, I
know it interferes with the Prime Minister's golf game, but there
are a lot of cold months between now and February and Canadians
who are harmed by high home heating fuels cannot wait until
February.
When will the Prime Minister take some action to help Canadians
who need help right now?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I do not know why it took two years for the hon. member
to decide to come to the House of Commons. He was probably
playing golf when I was working in the House.
It is not the level of the question. We are a very responsible
government. When his government was in power there was a $42
billion deficit that we had to eliminate. It is very easy for
him to attack us today, but they left the country in a mess and
we have restored the financial health of the nation.
* * *
[Translation]
FOREST PRODUCTS
Mr. Réginald Bélair (Timmins—James Bay, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Natural Resources.
Canada is one of the world's most forested countries. A total
of 45% of its surface is covered by forest and we possess over
10% of all the forests in the world.
[English]
Canada is one of the world's biggest exporters of forest
products. Will the government be proactive in defending Canada's
markets as well as its reputation for quality forest products
around the world?
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, indeed we are being proactive right now and we will
continue to be so in a great many ways.
One example is that I was in Europe about 10 days ago on behalf
of the Canadian forest sector. I met there with the EU and with
certain member countries dealing with issues like recycling
regulation, wood packaging regulations, certification of
standards and so forth, all to reduce market barriers and
problems.
A strong and factual message about sustainable forest management
in Canada is eagerly sought after in Europe and very positively
received. We need the facts to back up our case. We continue to
be aggressive in telling our story, and we will do that.
* * *
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Derrek Konrad (Prince Albert, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, the Prime Minister likes to quote from old letters. He
has written a few letters himself over the years. We have
obtained the letter that the Prime Minister wrote to the Lubicon
band just before the 1993 election. In it he said that the
government should act swiftly to settle their land claim.
Today the Lubicon are so sick and tired of waiting that they are
setting up a reserve right on the front lawn of parliament. The
promise that the Prime Minister made in 1993 was never kept. Why
did he make it? Was it just a political promise to win an
election?
Hon. Robert D. Nault (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as we sit here today the
negotiations are ongoing with the Lubicon.
I also want the member to know that it takes other partners to
come to the table to help solve issues that relate to the Lubicon
and that in particular is the Alberta government. We are now
negotiating with the Alberta government on land quantum.
If the member wants to be helpful, now that this will probably
be his last question in the House since he lost his nomination, I
would think that maybe he would want to help us with the issue of
making sure Alberta deals with its land quantum.
* * *
[Translation]
GASOLINE PRICING
Mr. Pierre Brien (Témiscamingue, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the Canadian
government is dragging its feet and refusing to introduce
effective short and long term solutions in the gasoline price
crisis which is affecting carriers and citizens alike.
My question is for the Minister of Industry. Are we to
understand that the government's behaviour in this crisis has
nothing to do with the fact that it itself holds shares in
Petro-Canada, one of the three companies controlling 75% of the
refining and distributing market? In other words, is it not in
conflict of interest?
[English]
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, no, not at all. The government is a very small minority
shareholder in Petro-Canada.
We have indicated that we will dispose of that holding at the
appropriate time, when it is in the best interest of taxpayers to
do so, but there is absolutely no conflict of interest in the
government on that point.
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, yesterday,
the hon. member for Calgary—Nose Hill said that seasonal workers
already earn a comfortable annual income. Since the vote on my
Motion M-222, nothing has changed with the employment insurance
program.
1500
Does the Prime Minister share the view of the Canadian Alliance
member? If not, what is he waiting for to make the changes he is
advocating to help Canadians? As far as I am concerned, whether
it is the Canadian Alliance, the Progressive Conservative or the
Liberal Party, there is no difference at all.
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, clearly the hon. member thinks that the
only solution for seasonal workers is more employment insurance.
As I have said time and again, if we find there are indications
that we can be more efficient with employment insurance and that
changes are necessary we will make them.
It is not that nothing has changed. The Minister of Labour and
I have visited his community. We have community organizations
working diligently and finding successful their work in providing
and creating new opportunities for work for seasonal employees. I
wish the hon. member would put some focus on that.
* * *
EDUCATION
Mr. Jean Dubé (Madawaska—Restigouche, PC): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday the Minister responsible for Infrastructure said that
the government priority was with water and air quality. She
deliberately left out post-secondary education.
Why does the minister ignore the report by the Canadian
Association of Universities and Colleges saying that there is a
$1.2 billion need for urgent repairs to universities? Will she
put that money into educational infrastructure now?
[Translation]
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
remind the opposition member that, if we have an infrastructure
program for municipalities, it is because the Federation of
Canadian Municipalities asked for it, and so did the premiers of
every province in Canada.
In that context, the government made it a priority for the whole
country to have basic infrastructures that allow us to improve
water quality and air quality for our fellow citizens.
I do not deny the fact that there may be other needs but, at
this time, this is the priority that is—
The Speaker: The hon. member for York South—Weston.
* * *
[English]
PENITENTIARIES
Mr. John Nunziata (York South—Weston, Ind.): Mr.
Speaker, my question is for the solicitor general. What is
happening in federal penitentiaries is unconscionable.
Clifford Olson raped and murdered 11 Canadian children. Yet
while in prison he was able to have access to child pornography.
He was able to enter an international poetry contest. Now we
learn that he has been able to apply for and is receiving federal
GST rebates.
Will the solicitor general immediately look into Mr. Olson's
activities and put an immediate stop to this nonsense?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Solicitor General of Canada,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that the offender
is in a maximum security institution. I will look into the
question my hon. colleague has asked me.
* * *
PRESENCE IN GALLERY
The Speaker: I draw the attention of hon. members to
the presence in the gallery of Sir Philip Bailhache, Bailiff and
President of the States of Jersey.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
1505
[English]
CRIMINAL CODE
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-17, an
act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals, disarming a
peace officer and other amendments) and the Firearms Act
(technical amendments), be read the second time and referred to a
committee.
Mr. David Chatters (Athabasca, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, I sat and listened to my colleague make his speech on
the cruelty to animals act. He raised what I think was a very
legitimate concern of cattle owners about protecting the age old
practice of branding, dehorning and vaccinating cattle.
In the midst of his speech we heard the backbench heckling on
the other side of the House, in particular the member for
Bruce—Grey. That was interesting because Bruce—Grey is one of
the greatest cattle producing areas of Canada. It is well
renowned for feedlots and for the raising and producing of
cattle.
It is curious the member would not come forward to debate the
issue in front of the microphone. Far enough from the microphone
he insisted that the act provides protection for cattle producers
against prosecution for cruelty and pain inflicted upon animals
during the dehorning process.
Since my colleague made the presentation I obtained a copy of
the act and reread it once again. I have read it several times,
but I read it again in an effort to find where, even in the
vaguest sense, there was some protection provided for the
agricultural producer as the member suggested. I have not been
able to find even the slightest or vaguest reference. I do not
believe that reference is there.
Would the member comment on that and elaborate further on his
concerns for the farmer and the cattle producer?
Mr. Myron Thompson: Madam Speaker, in the midst of all
the efforts of the Liberals to jumble bills together and bring in
different things the way they do, it is a bill that contains some
really good stuff and some really confusing stuff. I have spoken
about this in the past.
What they are doing is moving cruelty to animals out of civil
law where it really belongs and into the criminal code.
1510
These amendments would protect harvesters, cattlemen and other
people who make a living raising animals. If these changes are
not made, every law-abiding cattle owner and every law-abiding
chicken farmer will be subjected to becoming a criminal under
this act. That is the way it is. That is the way it exists in
its present form.
They should do a little more thinking about what they have done
by taking this out of the civil code and putting it into the
criminal code. They should think a little more about the
predicament in which they will put a lot of people. Instead of
heckling so much, they should listen to what is being said. Then
maybe they would not make the silly mistakes they constantly
make.
I am beginning to think they are not mistakes. When one starts
to jumble up an omnibus bill like this one, is there a purpose
behind it? Is there a strategy? Or, is it just plain Liberal
nonsense? I tend to believe the latter.
Mr. Jake E. Hoeppner (Portage—Lisgar, Ind.): Madam
Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise in the House to ask a short
question of the hon. member for Wild Rose.
Seeing that he studied the legislation, I am wondering if there
is any protection for the farmer who gets kicked by a milk cow or
kicked in the teeth by a horse. Who is looking after the
interest of the farmer and the protection of these poor people?
Mr. Myron Thompson: Madam Speaker, apparently, as I see
it, humans are totally excluded from the bill. Having received
the back hoof of a milk cow once or twice in my life, I know it
is pretty painful. It could be classified as pretty cruel.
I know what my hon. colleague is thinking. The people in the
business of raising cattle, sheep and livestock and dealing with
other animals know the difference between cruelty and what is
proper.
The government should not be so quick to draw up criminal code
legislation that gives us the idea that farmers and ranchers do
not know anything and therefore it is up to politicians in Ottawa
to do the protecting. My goodness, with all the lawyers from Bay
Street we are facing a real problem. I am not sure they know
which end of a cow the milk comes out of.
Mr. Darrel Stinson (Okanagan—Shuswap, Canadian
Alliance): Madam Speaker, I listened to the speech of the
hon. member for Wild Rose. He raised a very interesting point
with regard to what happens in the House when the government
decides to bring in a piece of legislation.
It has the habit of introducing a part of the bill, which really
has nothing to do with the rest of the bill, for the House to
vote upon. When we try to separate a bill it absolutely refuses
to do it. This bill is another example of what happens. I would
like the hon. member to comment on that if he could.
This piece of legislation deals with cruelty to animals. Another
part of the same bill deals with disarming peace officers. In no
way can I make sense of this at all. It seems that we are trying
to lump the disarming of a peace officer with cruelty to animals.
It makes no sense to me or to a number of people with whom I
have talked. If the hon. member could comment on that I would
appreciate it.
Mr. Myron Thompson: Madam Speaker, there is only one
person who could possibly explain it. I would like to hear a
simple explanation as to why a bill dealing with cruelty to
animals would be incorporated with a bill that says it is against
the law to disarm a peace officer. I fail to see the connection.
There has to be some reason. For the life of me, I cannot
possibly think of what the reason would be. It makes no sense to
me at all. I am sure the question being asked by millions of
Canadians across the country is: Why would the Liberal
government do this kind of a thing?
There must be a political reason for it.
1515
If the government is trying to boggle our minds with confusion,
it does not have to try so hard. It has been doing that for many
years. I hope the voters wake up and realize what kind of an
outfit is trying to run the show.
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, the Edmonton max is real close to my riding. It is a
couple of miles outside the boundary. I talked to one of the
guards. He complained that their guns are taken away from them
when they go into Edmonton on escorted leave with some of the
very dangerous criminals.
It is curious to me that the same government that would take
weapons away from the guards would make a law which makes it
against the law for anyone else to take a weapon away from a
police officer. I wonder if the member could comment on that.
Mr. Myron Thompson: Madam Speaker, it will not take long
to comment on that. That is a very, very good point. The
government has taken away the weapons from peace officers who are
escorting criminals from one penitentiary to another and at the
same time we are making a law that says it is illegal to disarm a
peace officer. Maybe someone should charge the government. The
Liberals are a very confusing lot and it is time to get rid of
them.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Madam
Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-17, which I could not
describe as complex, because it is fairly straightforward, but
rather as a bit of a mixture, since it addresses several
different things.
It is, of course, an omnibus bill but, with these, we are more
used to having changes to a number of things that are somewhat
interconnected. Here we have different things. This is not a
bill that strikes me as problematic; I would say it is an
improvement.
I will quickly go over the range of points addressed by this
bill. I am going to focus on one point in particular, the one I
find rather more important, requiring more reflection and
attention.
As we have been hearing since this morning, Bill C-17 addresses
a variety of issues, the main and most important of which as far
as changes are concerned relates to cruelty to animals. Its main
aim is to group together the present provisions of the Criminal
Code under one new section. I believe that it is a worthwhile
step forward in dealing with animal cruelty. Just reading the
amendments, we can see that this government is attempting to make
some innovations in this field and to update the situation.
Nonetheless, there are some weaknesses or flaws in the bill.
Improvements would have to be made. I believe that careful
attention needs to be paid to the innovations the minister wishes
to make by introducing this bill.
It gathers into a single bill the various offences to be found
here and there. The government now wants to concentrate them,
and that is fine.
In addition, the whole issue of disarming officers of the peace
is contained in the bill. On September 1, I met in Halifax the
Canadian Police Association. Naturally, this subject came up for
discussion, and statistics were provided to me, but I had
gathered a few of my own as a member of the Standing Committee on
Justice and Human Rights.
In the province of Ontario alone, over the past 25 years, some
22 police officers have been gunned down with their own weapon.
At the moment, the measures in the Criminal Code do not satisfy
the police community.
1520
If the police support these amendments, I can tell you honestly
that I will not do battle, because in the end we will no doubt
support the way they are drafted. In any case, we support the
aim, which is to make disarming an officer of the peace an
offence.
Then there is section 214 of the criminal code on illegitimate
children. I could not believe that in the year 2000 we would
find this in the Canadian criminal code. In my view, children
have not been illegitimate for a long time. I would go so far as
to say that there is no such thing as illegitimate children,
since the child is the product of the mother and the father, and
that is the way it is.
Therefore, I fully support the amendment in this omnibus bill to
delete the expression illegitimate child which, in any case,
should never have appeared in the criminal code. But at one time
that expression reflected the moral standards of the day.
This omnibus bill seeks to increase the protection granted to
extremely vulnerable people in society, namely the disabled,
against sexual exploitation by adding a new category to the list
of offences targeted by special evidence rules.
We must salute and, more importantly, support these amendments,
which seek to help crown attorneys, among others, collect
evidence to build solid cases.
Because the political will was there to amend some legislative
tools to help collect evidence under certain circumstances, to
help crown attorneys build solid cases, the Minister of Justice
found a way—and I congratulate her—of bringing in amendments to
the criminal code to facilitate the work of crown attorneys in
the collection of evidence.
I am convinced that, in her department, and I am sending this
message, there are public servants who could find an effective
way to fight organized crime, to help crown attorneys collect
evidence to build their cases and to provide them with all the
necessary legislative tools.
In this bill, the minister shows her interest for a group we
must protect, namely disabled people and those who are more at
risk of being abused, people who may be less able to communicate
evidence for reasons of accessibility and other reasons. It was
therefore important and appropriate for the minister to include
these changes in her omnibus bill.
Finally, I do not intend to revisit an old issue here, but Bill
C-17 proposes significant changes to the Firearms Act regarding
the issuance of licences for handguns to employees and
storekeepers. These amendments in the omnibus bill are very
understandable. This is not very complicated. The purposes and
the objectives of these amendments are understandable.
I cannot get too fired up about Bill C-17 because basically these
are acceptable provisions that we must look at carefully.
However, I do not give my blessing to all these amendments.
Some serious work will have to be done, and that is how we have
always proceeded in the Standing Committee on Justice and Human
Rights. We will have to examine each of these amendments to the
criminal code closely, because I think that they will very
definitely have repercussions. The part of Bill C-17 which has
perhaps got people talking the most, which has captured their
interest, is the first part, which deals with offences under the
heading of “Cruelty to Animals”.
1525
Upon reading the bill, I immediately had certain questions and
concerns. I listened carefully to the explanations from the
government side. I can say that, on the face of it, my many
questions have not been answered.
Nor are the minister and the government members answering the
questions that legal specialists, farmers or industries that
work with animals have with respect to this part of the bill.
This entire section will have to gone over very closely in
committee.
As far as the bill's provisions relating to cruelty to animals
are concerned, there are some arguments on both sides. I will
try to summarize them, and to reach a conclusion at the end.
Legally speaking, there is recognition of the importance of
readjusting the provisions of the criminal code, but it seems
the legislator has yielded to pressure from the animal defence
people, imposing penalties that are judged too severe. This is
a legitimate objection, looking at the penalties imposed on
offenders.
The Barreau du Québec has issued an opinion on this part of the
bill. It finds it shocking and inappropriate that these new
provisions are to come under part V of the criminal code,
“Sexual Offences, Public Morals, Disorderly Conduct and Cruelty
to Animals”, because there is a risk of reducing the importance
of offences toward people.
The Barreau du Québec calls for the creation of a specific
statute apart from the criminal code, or at the very least that
these offences be grouped together in a specific section of the
criminal code.
I believe that the objective of the Barreau du Québec is to
ensure that the criminal code, which is relatively easily
followed by an informed reader at the present time, does not
become any more complex than it already is. Hon. members will
note that I have said “an informed reader”. This is certainly
not as easy a read as a novel, but there is a certain logic in
the criminal code, in its structure and in the sentences, the
way sentences are determined and so on. Adjustments would have
to be made, but that logic would have to be retained. I think I
am echoing the Barreau du Québec's position by saying that
perhaps these offences ought to be grouped together in a
specific section of the criminal code.
A reading of the bill will show that a definition of “animal” is
given.
I heard a member of the Canadian Alliance answer another
member's question as to whether or not humans were covered by
this law. This was not covered in the definition of animal, at
least I hope so.
The definition satisfies the legal world. It is fairly clear.
One wonders why the legislator put it in subclause (8) at the
very end of the definitions. The definition of an animal should
be put at the very start, ahead of the consequences of cruelty
to an animal. This is normally the way it works; the
definitions are at the start of a bill. I see no reason why it
should be otherwise in a specific section of the criminal code.
This section should start with the definition of the word
“animal” before proceeding to the heart of the matter, that is,
who commits an offence, how it is committed and what are the
offences involved, as in the bill.
The Barreau du Québec also said that the important point with
this bill is the one concerning the means of defence made
available to offenders. Lawful excuse, as provided in paragraphs
182.1(1)(c) and 182.1(1)(d), addresses concerns expressed by the
animal industry, namely the context of an experiment or an
accepted industry, be it for profit such as a slaughter house or
recreational such as hunting.
However, having heard certain comments by the animal industry,
we do not think this bill addresses their concerns.
And rightly so. I will come back to this a little later on in
my speech.
1530
There is a new provision regarding the offence of failing to
provide adequate care. Even the legal experts think that this
offence should be dropped from the bill, because it is not based
on any tangible evidence and thus runs counter to the spirit of
the criminal code.
With no material evidence to go on, it will be very difficult to
prove this offence beyond all reasonable doubt. Given the legal
principle that there must always be a point to what lawmakers
say—when I refer to lawmakers, I am of course not referring to
the Minister of Justice—this means that if we include in the
criminal code a provision for which it will never be possible to
produce tangible evidence, we will never be able to use this
provision, and lawmakers' work would be pointless, which goes
against a basic legal principle. The House knows what I mean.
As for the reception of the legal community, it is quite
favourable. The animal industry, however, has some serious
questions. It feels that the earlier provisions in the criminal
code have not really been reproduced, and that there are
loopholes. Amendments should be made to the legislation to
better serve this industry, whether it be lucrative or
recreational in nature.
Some hon. members have referred to the farmers in their ridings.
There are farmers in my riding also, and even wild animals in
captivity. There are, of course, questions to be raised with
regard to this bill.
The bill could easily be improved, if there were a certain
political will. It is not a bill, at least as far as the Bloc
Quebecois MPs are concerned, that will have us tearing out our
hair if the wording is not the same as in the criminal code.
The purpose of the bill is to improve and to update the approach
being taken to animals, compared to the practice a few years ago.
Hon. members will understand that the minister cannot be asked
to reproduce word for word what was in the criminal code. It is
being changed precisely because it did not correspond to everyday
reality.
Nevertheless, there were certain things in the sections they
want to do away with, including subsection 429(2) which refers to legal
justification or colour of right to justify certain actions by
the owner of an animal. These are not carried over into Bill
C-17; there is nothing like them.
There is reference to “lawful excuse”, but this is very broad.
How are the courts going to interpret “lawful excuse”? As
legislators, we must provide the courts with as much guidance for
their interpretation as possible. We are not doing our job
properly if we leave things the way they are. I believe what we
mean by “lawful excuse” needs to be clarified.
We have heard some of the major questions raised by owners.
Is the practice common among farmers with horned animals of
removing the horns of the beasts considered to Cause an animal
“pain, suffering or injury”? Would the courts interpret it this
way? This is not clear. The government should be clearer in
its legislation.
For example, those who raise animals of prey trim their beaks,
others cut the tails of certain animals. Does this come under
the offence of causing “pain, suffering or injury?” Doubtless
it does not. I think we should not give the courts any room for
interpretation. Owners and farmers are quite right to have
reservations, doubts and questions about these problems.
1535
There is also the whole issue of researchers who use animals.
People may oppose this, but medicines have been developed as the
result of testing, in a prescribed manner, I concede.
We already have a code, which could perhaps be better
structured, be better tracked to see what is done in the industry.
Nor can animal research be completely prohibited and certain
possible justifications for the people who are going to use
animals not included in the bill. Thought should also be given
to all the organizations for the defence of animal rights. I
think that everyone is aware of their perhaps extreme position,
but on the other hand, there are researchers who use animals.
There is also the issue of criminal intent. I believe very
sincerely that there should be more clarification on this in the
bill.
All this is to say that we support the spirit of the bill, but a
fair balance must be found between the purpose of the
legislation and its usefulness.
This is not the first bill the Standing Committee on Justice and
Human Rights will be considering in order to find the fairest
possible solution. Once again, it is not a very controversial
bill as far as the Bloc Quebecois is concerned.
[English]
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, I think it is important that I rise today to speak to
Bill C-17. First I will talk a bit about what the bill includes.
It is one of those omnibus bills which includes things that
should never be grouped together. I encourage the government to
decouple the issues in the bill so that we are dealing with like
issues only in one particular piece of legislation instead of
such wide ranging issues.
In the bill we have issues ranging from cruelty to animals to
disarming a police officer, to a whole group of miscellaneous
issues including those under the Firearms Act. They are
completely unrelated.
When many of us came here in 1993, particularly those of us in
the Reform Party which is now the Canadian Alliance, we expressed
concern, and we have expressed it many times since, about omnibus
bills and the need for decoupling unrelated issues so that we
could have debate on the particular issues before the House and
could vote on a bill without having to vote against a bill
because we could not support one part of it when there may be
other sections that we fully support.
The government uses this tactic. The intent is to make it
difficult for opposition members to vote against a bill because
parts of it are difficult to vote against. This tactic is not
reasonable for the government to use. I request that it break
the bill down into three or more bills so that we could deal with
it in a reasonable fashion and have debate on related issues. The
most important part is that we could vote on issues that are at
least in some way related. Unfortunately that is not the case
with this piece of legislation.
When we look at Bill C-17 it is hard to disagree with its stated
intent, the main part of the bill, cruelty to animals. How many
people would not support a piece of legislation which in a
reasonable fashion protects animals against abuse?
I do not think we would find one member of any political party in
the House who would not support that. That is not the issue when
we are dealing with this bill.
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There are some areas of concern in the legislation. One part of
the bill is the disarming of a police officer. I think we would
find very wide support in the House for that portion of it. With
some changes I think we would find that almost everyone in the
House would support that portion of the bill. I cannot speak for
everyone else, but that is what I have heard from the debate so
far and from speaking to some people from other parties regarding
the legislation. I think there is pretty wide support for that
part of the bill.
There is an issue in the miscellaneous section which I think has
been overlooked and to which we must pay attention and speak on
today. I am referring to the issue of once again having the
government expropriate property from Canadian citizens with no
compensation. There is a section in the bill which does exactly
that. It will expropriate property and cause people to destroy
property so that it is worthless, with no compensation.
That stems from a deep rooted problem in the country that
Canadians do not have the right to own property. There is
nothing in the constitution that says Canadian citizens have a
right to own property. It is an issue to which we have spoken
many times since we have been here. I think it is an important
issue to raise again.
It is all wrong. It is part of what is wrong with the species
at risk act. In that piece of legislation property can be
expropriated from citizens. The use of property could be denied.
There may or may not be any compensation, but certainly the
minister has made clear that under that piece of legislation
there is no guarantee of fair market value compensation. It has
been made very clear that there just will not be fair market
value compensation.
In the species at risk act the problem arises from the fact that
we do not have the right to own property enshrined in the
constitution. It comes to the forefront. That is a big part of
the problem in that piece of legislation, as it is in this one. I
certainly cannot support that part of the legislation. I just do
not believe it is proper for a government to expropriate property
from individuals without fair market value compensation. That is
exactly what would be done in the miscellaneous section of Bill
C-17.
We have heard a Bloc member of parliament speak to the disarming
of a police officer to some extent. Others will speak and have
spoken to that issue, but I want to focus on the part of the bill
that deals with protecting against animal cruelty. It is very
clear that probably there is not one member in the House who
would not agree that we want to protect animals against abuse.
Many of us have pets. I am in Ottawa almost half the year. When
I came here in 1993 my family replaced me with a miniature
schnauzer named Lady. My family figured it was a pretty good
deal, which kind of concerns me. The Liberals think it is a
pretty good deal too. She is just such a sweet little dog,
sometimes. Our family loves her dearly.
Many people have pets they feel that kind of attachment to. Who
would not want legislation to protect against abuse of our pets
and of animals we feel are very important to us. That is not the
issue.
The issue is that in this piece of legislation there are flaws
which have led to a concern expressed by hunters, anglers,
farmers and ranchers in particular. I will refer to legal
opinions which people from all these groups have obtained from
their lawyers on this issue. They are concerned that as the
legislation is written now it could harm farmers, ranchers,
hunters and anglers in their activities. I will refer to that
real concern.
1545
Before I read from the first letter which mainly concerns farm
animals, I would like to talk about the care farmers and ranchers
take with their animals.
I have had neighbours on the farm who have complained that their
wife or husband, the person who looks after the animals, cares
more for the animals than they do for their spouse. That is kind
of a farm joke. At calving time farmers are out there watching
to make sure their animals give birth safely. They are out there
in the middle of the night checking to make sure that calves are
not lost, frozen or harmed in some way.
Farmers and ranchers take good care of their animals. Of course
that is how they earn their living and there is a monetary reward
for doing a good job, but also it is just because they care for
their animals. They genuinely care for their animals.
I must express concern when we have a piece of legislation that
seems to ignore that fact and does not seem to recognize that a
vast majority of farmers and ranchers do an absolutely wonderful
job. The last thing they would want to do is to inflict any kind
of pain on their animals or to allow pain to be inflicted on
them. Yet farmers and ranchers once again have to defend
themselves against a piece of legislation put forth by the
government. Bill C-17 could interfere in the way they look after
their animals. That is a concern.
I am going to read from some documents. The first is from the
county of Vermilion River No. 24. That county is very close to
where I live in east central Alberta. The area has a very large
number of cattle and other farm animals. Enough farmers and
others have talked to the councillors about this legislation that
they have taken the time to write to the minister about this
issue. I was at meetings with the council on a couple of
occasions where this issue was brought to my attention. I brought
it to the attention of our caucus and members of other parties as
well.
I am going to read the short letter from the county of Vermilion
River to explain where it is coming from on this issue. It
reads: “The County of Vermilion River No. 24 Agriculture Service
Board recently reviewed the proposed changes to Bill C-17, under
section 182 animal cruelty provisions. The Agriculture Service
Board understands that the intent of the changes of Bill C-17 is
not to alter the animal care practices currently being used by
livestock producers throughout Canada. Presently livestock
producers operate lawfully under a vast array of federal and
provincial laws, regulations and voluntary codes of conduct. The
County of Vermilion River No. 24 Agriculture Service Board does
not condone the mistreatment of animals. However, the current
wording of C-17 could put livestock producers involved in
legitimate and lawful livestock production at serious risk of
criminal prosecution. The County of Vermilion River No. 24
Agriculture Service Board would ask that amendments be made to
Bill C-17 which would ensure the protection of law-abiding
livestock producers from unfair criminal prosecution. The
livelihoods of Canadian livestock producers are at stake”.
The letter is signed by the reeve of the county, Peter Green.
He also includes a legal opinion on Bill C-17, particularly
dealing with the livestock cruelty provisions. It is an overview
of their concerns. The briefing document, which includes
comments from the legal opinion, was sent to the Minister of
Justice.
The risks of the bill are listed. It states “leaving aside the
government's best intentions, if Bill C-17 is left as it is”,
and therefore they acknowledge that the government has the best
of intentions in this regard.
They believe that, as do I. Leaving that aside, they said they
have concerns about the risk to farmers, hunters, anglers and
other people.
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Farmers risk criminal prosecution for such common practices as
dehorning, beak and tail trimming, castrating and hot iron
branding given in the wording of 182.1(1)(a).
Meat plants which engage in religious slaughter risk criminal
prosecution for not stunning livestock prior to killing,
according to the wording. The second concern is slaughter for
religious purposes and the process that must be followed to
respect those religious beliefs. They have a real concern about
those not being upheld as a result of the bill.
Biomedical researchers in food, cosmetics, medicine and
chemicals risk criminal prosecution from procedures which result
in any pain or suffering according to the bill.
Anglers risk criminal prosecution for even putting a worm on the
hook as a result of the changes in the bill.
Hunters risk criminal prosecution for wounding or using a bow.
Likewise trappers risk criminal prosecution for using live
holding traps as a result of the legislation.
Those are the risks listed in the legal opinion. It is a long
list. Practices which are considered to be perfectly normal
could be altered and could be forced to be set aside as a result
of the legislation. I do not think that is the intent the
government had.
I am asking the government to look at these concerns and to fix
the legislation. We will be more than co-operative in that
regard. These concerns have been sent to the minister. We sent
proposals to the minister. Several people have sent proposals to
us which have also been sent to the minister. We do not want to
make a political issue out of this. We want it fixed. That is
why I am taking this very co-operative approach.
I do not want to go through all the other concerns that are
listed. I believe that the concerns of farmers and ranchers
certainly in our part of the country as expressed are legitimate.
I think they have accurately identified real problems with the
way the legislation is written. The legislation has to be either
set aside or amended so that the hardship that could be forced on
ranchers, farmers, hunters, fishermen and other people can be
taken into account.
That is the letter from the county of Vermilion River. I will
not read through all of these documents, but I want to read
portions of a letter and a background document including a legal
opinion sent to me by the Ontario Federation of Anglers and
Hunters. This is not just a western Canadian problem; it is a
problem right across the country. Farmers farm and ranchers
ranch right across the country, but people also like to hunt,
fish and take part in other activities which have been generally
considered to be acceptable.
I think a lot of Liberals would find those activities to be
acceptable. If they do not, then they should state that. They
should say no, they do not agree that people should be allowed to
hunt. They should say no, they do not agree that people should
be allowed to trap. They should say no, they do not believe that
farmers should be allowed to do things with their animals which
they normally have done in the interests of good animal
husbandry. If they do not believe that, they should come out and
say it. If they do not believe it is right for certain religious
groups to kill livestock in a way that is laid out by the
religion of those groups, then they should come out and say that.
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If it is not the Liberals' intention to interfere in normally
accepted processes, then they should say, “Okay. We have made a
mistake. We have a bad piece of legislation here, so let us fix
it up”. That is all I am asking.
I really do not think this should become a political ball that
we throw back and forth. There should be co-operation on this
issue. There is certainly co-operation from me and members of my
caucus. I think members of the governing party will show the
same kind of co-operation in this case. This issue is not one
which would favour one political party over another. We are
trying to protect the very people who could be harmed by the
legislation should it pass.
I want to refer briefly to a couple of the things the Ontario
Federation of Anglers and Hunters put forth in its letter. The
letter states in part: “Make no mistake, an outspoken national
animal rights organization has labelled Bill C-17 revolutionary
and as such, Canada is poised to elevate the interests of animals
in the law. The justice department officials themselves have
recently made remarkable claims that the current law recognizes
animals' interests. Let us repeat some of our major concerns on
C-17”. There are three concerns listed in the letter. “There
is absolutely no need to move cruelty and care provisions from
part XI to part V of the criminal code”. I agree. It is
important to note that moving those from part XI to part V gives
animals a status that somewhat equates to people. I do not think
that is generally accepted by Canadians.
Madam Speaker, I see you are indicating that my time is up. In
summary, my family and I love our little dog Lady, and many times
when we watch her play and interact with us we wonder just what
she does know, but we do not believe that she equates to a human.
I have a concern when a piece of legislation appears to somehow
equate a pet or other animal to a human. I agree with so many
groups that have written to me saying that we must change that,
put it back to the way it was. Let us work in a co-operative way
to fix this legislation.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Canadian Alliance):
Madam Speaker, I rise on behalf of the people of Surrey Central
to speak at second reading of Bill C-17, the government's
proposed changes to the criminal code and Firearms Act.
This is a non-partisan issue. I have only heard Canadian
Alliance members one after the other address the issue. Not a
single member from the government stood to address this important
issue. Perhaps they are not concerned about it and that is the
way it is.
In any event the bill has three parts. The bill will first of
all make it a criminal offence for anyone to disarm or attempt to
disarm a peace officer without that officer's consent. Our
nation's police associations have been calling for this. We in
the official opposition commend the government whenever it
listens to Canadians, which of course is a very rare event. In
this case we in the Canadian Alliance are proud to support
Canada's front line police officers. We will support this part
of the bill and will work with the government to have it passed
into law.
The second part of Bill C-17 amends the Firearms Act by
expanding the class of prohibited handguns that are grandfathered
and modifies the employee licensing requirements. The
refinements to the Firearms Act are pure and simple tinkering.
They are only cosmetic changes.
1600
The Canadian Alliance calls for a complete overhaul of the
Firearms Act. We support the two amendments to the Firearms Act.
However, if the government really wants to fix the Firearms Act,
it will have to implement the over 200 amendments proposed by
this side of the House at report stage and implement all of the
amendments proposed by the standing committee on justice.
The third part of Bill C-17 is the Liberal government's proposed
amendments to the criminal code, which will consolidate cruelty
to animal offences. The Canadian Alliance is anxious to support
measures that will protect animals in Canada. We Canadians love
our animals, be they wildlife, pets, or birds, all of the little
creatures that get cold and hungry in our winters.
In Surrey we have squirrels, alley cats, groundhogs, coyotes and
birds in our neighbourhoods, co-existing with us. They make us
and our children laugh. They tear at our hearts on a rainy day.
We all feel sad, very badly indeed, whenever we hear about an
innocent animal harmed by a human being. If it is an
unintentional harm to an animal, we share the sadness felt by the
person who caused the hurt to the creature, for that person feels
very bad as well.
When a person is cruel to an animal, that person invites the
wrath of the House and of all the powers we have in this place
to come to the aid, the defence and the protection of our
brethren in the animal kingdom.
On behalf of the people of Surrey Central, I am proud to
participate in this debate to pass the part of this legislation
that will fight cruelty to animals.
The weak Liberal government is proposing to place brutality to
an animal, viciously killing an animal and abandoning an animal
in one section of our criminal code. This bill proposes to no
longer treat cruelty to animals as a property crime. The new
provision will move cruelty to animals to part V of the criminal
code, under sexual offences, which would be renamed “Sexual
Offences, Public Morals, Disorderly Conduct and Cruelty to
Animals”. Animal cruelty provisions are currently contained in
part XI of the criminal code. These sections protect a person
from being convicted of an offence if that person acts with the
legal justification of excuse or colour of right.
Agricultural groups, anglers, hunters' groups and the Fur
Council of Canada oppose moving the offence. These groups fear
that by moving the cruelty section to sexual offences, they may
be wrongly prosecuted. They argue that those who lawfully and
legitimately harvest animals for businesses will not be protected
if the cruelty section is changed.
The Canadian Alliance will be moving an amendment at committee
stage to have animal cruelty provisions maintained in part V or
to make the necessary changes to the criminal code to comply with
the concerns of farmers, hunters, anglers, agricultural groups,
the fur trade and others who harvest animals.
The Minister of Justice contends that individuals who conduct an
agricultural business or one involved with animals are not
affected by this legislation. The Liberals say that if one is
not violating the criminal code as it currently reads in
conducting their agriculture business, Bill C-17 does not change
the way they conduct their business, whereas agricultural groups,
the anglers, the hunters' federation and the Fur Council of Canada
do not agree. They do not buy that.
1605
Canadians are mistrustful of the Liberal government that has
delivered so many broken promises such as the GST. A government
is not judged by the promises it makes. Rather, a government is
judged by the promises it keeps.
These Canadians, these fur traders, farmers and hunters, feel
the bill goes much further than reflecting society's disgust with
those who would abuse pets. They feel that this legislation is
the precursor to further attempts to alter the way they currently
operate their respective businesses. These three groups of
Canadians have raised legitimate concerns about the impact the
bill could have on their operations now and in the future.
I did my first degree, a B.Sc. in agriculture, with honours in
animal sciences. From that point of view, I can understand their
concerns. There is no reason why the Liberals cannot accommodate
the interests of the stakeholders and the industry affected by
the legislation. Why not?
The government should say what it means in its legislation.
Canadians cannot accept that words in a media scrum or in
regulations will take care of things. I have gone through a copy
of the bill. It is only a few pages long but the regulations
after the bill come as a big pile of papers. It is the
regulations that control the intent of the bill. Sometimes the
intent of the bill is different.
Canadians want clarity. Because these groups are concerned, the
government should spell out for them in its legislation exactly
what the government means.
Let me talk about penalties described in the bill. The bill
raises the penalty for intentional cruelty to an animal from the
current six months to five years. Also, the bill will lift the
cap off the fine, which is currently $2,000. There is potential
for a lifetime ban from owning an animal. Those found guilty of
cruelty to animals would be forced to pay for veterinarian
services to treat the animal. The bill acknowledges that animals
have feelings and are deserving of legal protection from
negligence or abuse. We hope that the new maximum five year
penalty will be imposed. As in other instances, the minister has
failed to put teeth in our law and propose minimum penalties.
Hopefully the Canadian Alliance can have the Liberals fix this
matter at the committee stage of the bill's progress through the
House.
There is more work for the government to do. Like so many of
their attempts to legislate, this is only half a job. They are
botching the job. We want to support this legislation and at the
same time we want it to be right. It is a good thing that we are
here to hold the flashlight for this weak Liberal government that
lacks vision.
The terms mentioned in the bill are not defined. The
government, in one bill, is mixing various issues that do not
have much correlation. The bill is like mixing apples and
oranges. The bill is half cooked. It is like a bitter medicine
mixed with a little sugar.
We will propose amendments during the committee stage that will
attempt to clarify and bring consensus to the bill.
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Canadian Alliance):
Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member for his
comments. We have concerns, but what about actual cruelty to
animals? Could the member elaborate on where he stands with
respect to animal cruelty? When animals are being injured in
very inhumane ways, what does he think we should be doing in
those cases?
1610
Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon.
member for his question. It gives me the opportunity to express
how I feel about cruelty.
I am a person with a very soft heart. At home when I have some
insects such as spiders or flies in the house, I take five or ten
minutes to catch them, put them in a container, carry them
outside and let them enjoy nature's freedom.
I am quite tough on the issue of those people who are injuring
animals or inflicting pain on animals. It is fun for some people
but that is not the way we in the civilized world should behave.
Again, in this bill the definition of cruelty is not mentioned
anywhere. For example, with respect to those people who fish,
probably in the view of other people they are causing pain and
suffering to the fish they catch, as a fish is a living animal,
but those people enjoy it. Other people are complete vegetarians
who do not eat meat at all. Another extreme is those who butcher
animals.
I believe cruelty is a relative term. For some people something
is cruel and for others it is not, but if there were a Liberal
member speaking on this bill I would stand up and ask what the
definition of cruelty is in this bill. Also, there are so many
other terms that should be included in this bill. The sad part
is that the government members are not giving any interest to
this. At this time there is only one member listening to this
debate. I wonder why the members are not showing an interest.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I must remind the
hon. member that we do not comment on the presence or absence of
members in the House.
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Canadian Alliance):
Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member for his views,
because it is extremely difficult to find a line, on what we are
going to have to do as legislators, between someone who is
obviously cruel with a puppy mill or something, which most
Canadians would clearly say is over the line, and the other side.
On the other side, it may be a mousetrap, rat poison or an
agricultural issue like the branding of cattle, which is a
standard practice in the industry.
How does the member see us finding that legislative balance so
that we end up with legislation that is firm and shows the legal
system where we stand? If we leave it loose and open we know we
are going to end up having the judiciary set the rules instead of
Parliament. Perhaps the member could give us his views.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Madam Speaker, the hon. member's
question is one that pertains to many other bills as well.
Sometimes in the House we get one page or two pages of a bill. In
this case, for example, we have only two pages of the bill, or if
I may say so, maybe about eight pages of the bill. Certain
things, which become very important, are not defined at all in
the bill. No line has been drawn as to what means what, as to
what the terms and conditions are. The government leaves it for
interpretation either by the judiciary or in the realm of
regulation.
I am chair of the scrutiny of regulations committee and I can
tell the House that the regulations put forward by the government
are a big mess. Some of the regulations that should not exist
today have been in the pipeline for 25 years. Those regulations
violate the terms and conditions of many issues. They should not
exist.
1615
However, those regulations continue because from time to time we
and the committees have been stonewalled by the ministers, the
departments and the government.
I believe that Canadians expect much more clarity and precision
from the government so that when a bill comes before the House it
shows that there is something really concrete in it. It cannot
mix apples and oranges as it has done in this one and it has not
defined many terms, conditions and definitions in the bill.
I believe that that is the way this is going. It is very
unclear and very unprofessional. It shows that the government
really does not care about fixing things. Sometimes it just
wants to get political brownie points and that is not fair.
Ms. Louise Hardy (Yukon, NDP): Madam Speaker, I want to
take this chance to comment on this because in my riding the
issue of cruelty to animals is the one which I have received the
most mail on in my three and a half years as a member of
parliament.
It is significant to mention that the letters are from trappers
and hunters who support the legislation against cruelty to
animals. These are people who have been targeted over the years
and have been accused of cruelty and inhumanity. In fact, they
are people who make their living in the most humane way that they
know how and carry out their jobs in that manner. It is a very
difficult living to make.
I also received letters of support for this legislation from
other people. The thoughts that came through most clearly were
people's true concerns that we use animals and take their lives
so that we can live and eat, particularly in communities that
live on a subsistence of hunting, fishing and trapping and when
we do it that it be done with the regard for other lives in this
world, not just our own and that people who live that way not do
it cruelly and do it for reason. They also wanted people to know
that they did not look at it as inhumane or cruel to animals.
I really wanted to bring it up because it is important to note
that the support has come from young people, from old people,
from first nations and from the conservation and humane societies
in my riding.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Madam Speaker, it is a concern which
is very near and dear to our hearts. We believe that humanity is
one aspect.
I have been getting letters from my constituents as well. One
was from a person who had been driving on a freeway behind a
truck loaded with poultry. Some of the birds fell out of the
truck, some had been put in small cages and it was hot. That was
inhumane. We believe that is why we have this legislation.
We strongly believe in and support the intent of the government,
but we are not comfortable with the way it has put things
together in the bill.
I believe there is not one single Canadian who likes to see
cruelty to animals. We all want the same thing. We want the
objective to be achieved, but in a professional way so that we do
not compromise the interests of our agricultural community, the
animal husbandry community, the poultry farmers and other people
who deal with animals on a regular basis.
The government should come up with a middle of the road approach
whereby cruelty to animals is prevented while at the same time
taking care of the interests of farmers, the agricultural
community, hunters and others.
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Canadian Alliance):
Madam Speaker, I am pleased to talk about Bill C-17, the cruelty
to animals legislation. As stated before, there are three
sections of this act which I will touch on briefly.
One section would make it a very serious criminal offence to
attempt to disarm a police officer. I think all members in the
House will support that. It is a very positive concern. There
are some technical amendments with respect to the Firearms Act.
Again, we have no problem with that.
1620
I am very supportive of legislation that makes it tougher for
people who are cruel to animals. I will raise a few concerns in
a positive way.
I look back at an incident that happened in Victoria when I was
elected as an MP. It outraged the entire community. My riding
is Saanich—Gulf Islands which is very close to Victoria. In
this case, a person had been following a vehicle that stopped at
a red light. They say it was road rage, but for no reason he
took a golf club and almost killed the dog in the back seat of
the vehicle which was in front of him because the vehicle was not
moving. It was tragic.
He was charged under the current criminal code section 445. I
remember the public was up in arms. To the credit of Judge
Higinbotham of the Victoria provincial court, I thought he dealt
with the matter quite appropriately. It was quite a severe
sentence. I believe, if my memory serves me correctly, it was
something in the order of 18 months because that was not
acceptable behaviour within our society.
I also acknowledge that in the current sections with respect to
cruelty to animals under the criminal code, I believe there is
lots of room for improvement. Section 445 is the relevant
section where if somebody does injure dogs, birds and other
animals that person is guilty of an offence punishable upon
summary conviction.
The government has recognized that we can improve these. I
question whether it is appropriate to move this cruelty to
animals section from property offences over to the sexual
offences section in the criminal code. I personally do not
believe that is an appropriate move although it is not the end of
the world.
A sexual offence is one of the most intrusive invasions into
one's privacy that one could ever imagine. That section should
be left as a very serious section. I am not minimizing this at
all but probably a better way to have gone would have been to
tighten up these sections on cruelty to animals in the property
sections of the criminal code.
The government has selected to go this way. We have heard the
concerns of some people. They are worried about people who are
in the ranching and cattle industry. We have trappers,
especially those people in the aboriginal and Inuit communities
who live in the far north. A large part of their livelihoods is
based on fishing. It is open for broad interpretation. I do not
think anybody's intentions are misguided but there are some
concerns as to how it will be interpreted at a later date.
If there is an opportunity, we will be putting amendments
forward to hopefully tighten these up. I think it is in the
interest of all Canadians. Quite often we see legislation that
is left open and loose and is not defined as well as it could be.
It ends in lengthy court trials, appeals which then go to higher
courts to interpret the legislation. If we can do anything to
rectify that before the legislation is passed that would be a
positive step.
For example, there is the sealing industry. It has been open to
debate for years. For sealers it has been their livelihood. It
has been a way of life, both economically and culturally for a
lot of people in Atlantic Canada. They use what is called a
hackpic to club the adult seals over the head. Some might argue
that would be a violation under this section of the act and some
people would probably believe that it is, but there is lots of
evidence to support that it is the most humane way.
As the member for Yukon stated, there are people from where she
is from who are in the trapping industry.
She stated that they try in the most humane way possible to carry
out their livelihood and they have been doing it for years. We
have to be cognizant of those situations.
1625
There is room in the bill to make some of these improvements. I
would have rather seen the sections that we are dealing with
amending sections 444 to 446 in the criminal code, but that is
not going to happen.
I want to impress upon people following this debate that it is
an important piece of legislation. I am absolutely opposed to
people who are unnecessarily cruel to animals. It is just not
acceptable. It should be a criminal offence and people should
be dealt with accordingly by the courts. That is not something
that society is going to tolerate.
Possibly the concerns that we have will be addressed when we
vote. To get some of these amendments through which we think
will improve the legislation will be a positive step.
I am particularly pleased that the section on disarming a police
officer is in the bill. I know some argue whether the two should
be combined in one bill. I understand that. It probably would
make some sense not try to combine everything in one bill rather
we could have separate bills. I would have rather seen that
section on disarming police officers with a lot of other sections
in the criminal code which need improvement and which Canadians
are waiting for, for example, property offences. There are many
suggestions where we can improve on that.
Canadians are looking for changes to our criminal code where we
put the rights of victims ahead of that of the criminals. There
are many instances that suggest that we are not. I know the
victims are very frustrated, threatened and feel they do not have
a voice.
It is interesting that we are taking steps to make sure that
interests of animals are taken into account and that we are
bringing in tougher measures against people who are inhumane to
animals. Again, that is a positive step subject to some of the
concerns that we have.
It would have been much more acceptable had the government,
since its election three years ago, chosen to deal with some of
these other issues. We are in the process of debating the
changes to the Young Offenders Act and will be voting on them
very shortly. We are debating the Group No. 1 amendments at
report stage. The government has done little more than tinker
with the Young Offenders Act. It has done very little as opposed
to its major overhaul of the section in the criminal code dealing
with cruelty to animals.
I question the wisdom of the government on its priorities, which
may be somewhat skewed, when it will not address these other
concerns. We have put amendments forward to deal with these
concerns. We think it will strengthen the bill. All members of
the House, all 301 of us, are all opposed to cruelty to animals.
All of us have heard horror stories. Society is not going to
accept that type of behaviour and such people need to be dealt
with.
It is to the government's credit that it has brought in the
section with respect to the disarming of police officers. That
is a very positive clause in the bill. Some may question whether
this is the bill that it should be in, but regardless of that it
has been brought in and I think that is a positive step.
Having said that, there are a few other areas that some of my
colleagues have mentioned.
They have done things such as imposing a lifetime ban on owning
an animal. I guess that is subject to the interpretation of the
courts. Some would question whether that is an appropriate use.
1630
I want to say in the broadest terms that bringing in legislation
that will let society and our courts be a lot tougher with people
who are abusive of animals is a move in the right direction.
There are some concerns. Hopefully they will be addressed and we
can move forward, as we have some very positive amendments that
will strengthen the bill, and not have to leave it to the
interpretation of the courts at a later date.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): It is my duty, pursuant to
Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the question to be
raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon.
member for New Brunswick Southwest, CHST.
[English]
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Canadian Alliance):
Madam Speaker, immediately prior to coming to the House I was on
the telephone with some people in my constituency and I was
rather surprised by their lack of information.
The bill has come forward at the will of the justice minister.
It is a bill that has been before the Commons for a period of
time. I have attempted to get some information out to people in
my constituency about it. However it is probably indicative of
the kind of process the government gets involved in quite
frequently. It takes a look at its idea of what is required in
terms of legislation and then proceeds to do it. It does not
take the time or make any effort to make people who will be
affected by the legislation aware of the legislation.
I want to deal with the cruelty to animals provisions of the
bill primarily, but I would also like to comment on the fact
that, as has already been said in the House, this is an omnibus
bill.
I believe it was Prime Minister Trudeau who, at least in my
time, was the first Prime Minister noted by journalists as
treating the House of Commons in a perverse way, rather
disrespectfully. To his mind, the House of Commons was a rubber
stamp that was required in order for him to be able to come
forward with the kind of legislation he wanted for the House.
Unfortunately, following Prime Minister Trudeau and then through
Prime Minister Turner, the new member for Kings—Hants, the
former Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, and now the current Prime
Minister, we have a continuation of the process. The
bureaucracy, perhaps pushed by its perception of public opinion,
and the cabinet, perhaps pushed by its perception of public
opinion, although mostly rounded out and buffeted by the concept
of political correctness, end up coming forward with pieces of
legislation that in their judgment are essential.
This is, as I have stated, an omnibus bill. An omnibus bill
basically combines all sorts of unrelated provisions. The only
relationship the provisions in the bill have to one another is
that they happen to come under the control of the justice
department, hence the justice minister. That is the only
connection between any of the matters in the bill.
Let us presume we have some serious concerns about the
provisions of the cruelty to animals portion of the bill, I in
particular, representing a dominantly rural constituency. We
have agricultural producers who are involved in raising cattle
and all sorts of other livestock. We have poultry farms and
dairy operations. In addition, as it happens, I have probably
the best big game hunting, certainly in North America if not in
the world, in my constituency, it being right in the core of the
Canadian Rockies.
1635
There is a lot of concern on the part of people in my
constituency, whether they are directly involved in the business
of agriculture, where they are directly dealing with domestic
animals, or whether they are hunting and fishing guides and
people involved with animals in that way. With that as a
background, let us presume that there are some concerns. I will
be relating some of them in just a second.
It is difficult enough for a member representing a rural
community such as I do, Kootenay—Columbia, to try to send a
message to the Canadian people. I have given up long since
trying to send a message to cabinet, because it does not listen
anyway. I will try to send a message to the Canadian people,
either through the broadcast of this debate or to those people
taking the time to read Hansard, about the difficulties
there are from an urban-rural perspective. That is difficult
enough.
Then we have the complete disregard of the parliamentary
process, which was started by Prime Minister Trudeau and
continued through the successive prime ministers. We have the
situation where governments then bring forward pieces of
legislation such as the business about the removal of a peace
officer's firearm and so on and so forth.
Who in the world could not support that? We look at that
provision of the bill and say to ourselves “Are there not an
awful lot of other provisions with respect to firearms and peace
officers that we could be addressing in a more substantive way
than the tinkering that is going on in this bill?” The
provisions in the bill with respect to the firearms of peace
officers are certainly supportable. It is just regrettable that
the bill does not go far enough.
As long as there is the disregard of the government for the
opposition and for the parliamentary process, as long as there is
a continuation of this attitude on the part of the present
Liberal government that treats the House of Commons as a rubber
stamp, basically a situation is created of it being exceptionally
difficult for an official opposition that is attempting to be
responsible in bringing representations and concerns of their
constituents, and indeed all Canadians, to the Chamber. It is
exceptionally difficult for us to be able to make any separation
or distinction between these two parts of this omnibus bill.
This is not picking fly droppings out of the pepper. This is
not trying to get down to the minutiae. This indeed is a
fundamental problem with the government, in continuing the policy
of treating the House as a rubber stamp for legislation that they
in their wisdom have crowned and anointed and that has come from
the bureaucracy.
That having been said, let us look at the provisions with
respect to the criminal sanctions for actions against animals
under the cruelty to animals part.
I have a summary from some people in my constituency who have
looked at the bill. They have, for example, a concern about the
definition of animal. The department argues that providing a
definition where one does not currently exist will provide a
narrower definition and at the same time provide added clarity.
The new definition would include non-human vertebrates and all
animals having the capacity to experience pain. The concern of
some of the people in my constituency is that this marks a
significant change by adding animals not traditionally considered
under the law.
The clarification could cause enormous problems by extending
criminal law to animals, including but not limited to free
ranging wildlife, invertebrates, and cold blooded animals such as
fish. Coupled with the move out of the property section,
including a definition will serve as a first step in elevating
the status of animals and giving all animals a standing in law.
This indeed is new ground. This indeed is new territory for us
to be going into.
1640
We have taken a look at this piece of legislation, and as with
virtually all the pieces of legislation the Liberals have brought
forward in this parliament, there is one egregious flaw. The
egregious flaw in virtually every piece of legislation the
government brings forward is that there is not a sufficient
preamble. If there were a sufficient preamble we could then work
on the issue of parliament defining for the courts what is
actually intended before this gets into a court of law.
I have many other concerns with the bill. I look forward to the
bill going to committee where I hope many of the concerns of
people such as my constituents can be brought forward. I hope
the bill, which presently is just too broad-brush, will be able
to be refined and defined. I also hope the government will take
the time, energy and effort to see that people who will be
affected by it are given more information.
Mr. Rick Casson (Lethbridge, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, we have heard quite a bit today, but I would like to ask
my colleague from Kootenay—Columbia to elaborate a little more
on one of the issues he touched on, the issue of the rural-urban
split that seems to be part of the cruelty to animals
legislation.
The parts of the legislation that deal with the disarming of a
police officer and some amendments to the gun registry are things
we can all support, but the fear that there is a rural-urban
split, even if that does exist, should not be there. We must
realize that there are codes of practice by which our livestock
producers live and have lived. There are no better tenders of
animals than they are because their livelihood depends on taking
good care of the animals they raise for food for the rest of the
world.
As we went through this process, quite a few letters supporting
the bill came in from the SPCA organizations in different cities.
We were also drawn to the other side by people in the
agricultural community who were concerned about some of the
aspects of the bill that could harm their practice.
Does the member feel there is a way the bill can be adjusted
that would appease the concerns of the people on both sides of
the issue? Certainly anybody who harms an animal should face
full consequences, but is there any way we can make this work to
keep both sides of the argument onside on this issue?
Mr. Jim Abbott: Madam Speaker, I would like to deal with
the member's question in two parts. First, with respect to the
rural-urban split, hard to believe though it may be, there are
three, four, five, and six year old children in Canada who have
never walked in a garden, have never seen carrots grow and have
no idea where they come from, have never seen tomatoes grow and
have no idea where they come from. All they know is when they
sit down at a table with the food in front of them, there is a
hot dog and there are buns or whatever the case may be.
The reality is there is a lack of understanding. I do not
believe at all that it is an intentional lack of understanding,
but there is nonetheless a lack of understanding by people who
have not been involved in any way, shape, or form with the
agricultural industry, whether it is fruit and vegetables or
animals. There is a complete lack of understanding, a
disconnectedness, in society. People simply do not understand
where the food on their plate comes from.
On the vast majority of farms, farmers clearly understand the
animals. The animals are not only their livelihood. They are
the protectors. They are the people who are working with humane
practices. It is those people who are most concerned about the
bill because it has such a pet implication as opposed to a
domestic animal implication or connection.
1645
To answer the second part of my colleague's question, that is
indeed what we are involved with in parliament and within the
parliamentary process. When we get into committee we will have
an opportunity to hear that. I would hope that the committee
looking at this will take every opportunity to have input so that
we make sure that the people who know and respect the
agricultural animals they are tending will have an opportunity to
have input into this bill.
I am sure that it would not be the intention of the government
or any other government to see criminal sanctions against people
who are in the business of rearing and slaughtering livestock so
that we can indeed have food on our tables.
As I say, I am looking forward to hearing about the committee
process. Certainly I am hoping the government is going to have a
very broad brush so that we do not end up with a pet mentality
applied to farmers.
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, in the introduction to my speech, I would like to read
the title of this bill so that everybody who is listening
recognizes exactly what we are up to here. Second, I will look
at exactly what the implications are.
The act is entitled “An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty
to animals, disarming a peace officer and other amendments) and
the Firearms Act (technical amendments)”. Here we have a bill
with very far-reaching implications.
If we look at the summary of the bill, we will recognize that
the bill has indeed moved into areas that are very far-reaching
and have implications not only for the present generation but
also for generations to come. For instance, it amends the
criminal code by:
(a) consolidating animal cruelty offences into one section and
introducing new offences for brutally or viciously killing an
animal or abandoning one;
(b) creating an offence of disarming, or attempting to disarm, a
peace officer; and
(c) making a number of technical amendments.
The intent being envisioned by the summary and also by the title
of the bill clearly invokes and evokes a certain empathy. There
is not one of us in the House who would not find ourselves very
much in sympathy with and in support of what the bill is
purporting to do.
In the introduction, I would suggest that the bill is rather
far-reaching. In fact, many people would label a bill of this
type an omnibus bill. An omnibus bill suffers from two kinds of
characteristics. First, there is too much in it for people to
really understand it all. Second, it is too general in some of
its indications, so not enough attention has been given to
clearly define or to give clear direction to what is intended.
My hon. colleague talked about a preamble; in a bill like this
one, a preamble is doubly important. Third, in certain other
areas the bill is a little too specific in that it does not allow
flexibility, which might otherwise be the case.
In principle, the bill is sound. Who in his right mind would
not want to live in a society that is peaceful and orderly? Who
in his right mind would not take offence that anybody should even
dare to disarm a peace officer? Clearly we would not want that
to take place. This bill brings that particular thing into focus
by saying that it is a criminal offence and should not be
tolerated in society. I think we would all agree with that. I
certainly do. That principle is sound.
The other part of this legislation goes to the punishment of
those who would cruelly use or abuse animals, both pets and other
animals. I do not think any one of us would say that we are for
being cruel to animals. Of course we are not. We do not want to
be. It is ridiculous to even suggest that there are other
creatures on the face of the earth and one of our purposes is to
be cruel to them. We do not want to do that. This bill makes
that a criminal offence. That is good. We can support those
kinds of things.
Then we come to the business of saying that disarming a peace
officer becomes an indictable offence and if that is the case
then under certain conditions there will be an imprisonment of up
to five years.
When it is a summary conviction, which in technical jargon is
slightly different, the maximum punishment is 18 months.
1650
The big issue here is that it is a punishable offence and people
who do these kinds of things ought to be treated with that kind
of awareness.
There is another principle involved here. If we as a society
want to live a peaceful, ordered life we must have people who
from time to time protect us against those who want to disturb
the peace, who do not want to have a decent lifestyle and want to
interfere with ours. We need to equip these people. We need to
protect these people. We need to give them the background and
the information so that they can indeed provide for the peace,
order and good government that we all want so much. I think we
would all support this provision in the bill.
When it comes to the other part, the amendments to the firearms
legislation, we ask ourselves, what is all this? When we analyze
what the amendments are we discover that they are all very
technical and could almost be interpreted as being cosmetic in
nature. There is not much to offend there. However, the
question then becomes, how will that actually change anything?
I guess it is necessary in certain cases because there is a
grandfathering of certain things here. There is the training of
employees who sell handguns. I think that is all very good. One
could argue that it is just plain common sense. I guess the
Liberal government thinks that common sense is so rare that it
has to write it into legislation. If that is the case, then it
is a good thing it is in here.
The other part of this, though, leads to something that I cannot
resist. I must refer to the Liberals' Firearms Act, which they
introduced here some time ago. It came in the form of Bill C-68.
That particular piece of legislation is so badly flawed that if
they really want to make a difference what they should do, at the
minimum, is to take our 200 amendments that we proposed at report
stage and implement them. That would help make the legislation a
little more meaningful.
Mr. Speaker, you know, the Minister of Justice knows, the Prime
Minister knows, the RCMP knows and all the police officers know
that particular piece of legislation is not working. It has not
reduced violent crime. It has not come even close to being a
reasonable implementation scheme. Already $328 million has been
spent. We were told it was going to cost less than $100 million.
It is well over three times that number now. We have to take a
very caustic look at that particular piece of legislation.
I would suggest that we really have not given the firearms
legislation appropriate attention in the provisions of this bill.
In fact, we could go even one step further. Police associations
in Canada are considering withdrawing their support for the
legislation. So with regard to this piece of legislation and
putting this little cosmetic change in there, while it does not
cause us any problem, it does not deal with the more serious case
of the firearms legislation.
I want to turn my attention to the provisions in the bill with
respect to cruelty to animals. I want to focus on two particular
aspects of this part of the legislation.
First I want it clearly understood by all persons in the House
listening to me now that we really want to support the idea that
people who are wilfully cruel to animals should be punished
severely.
However, what the bill proposes is that it should delete from
existing legislation the words “wilful neglect” and “marked
departure from the exercise of reasonable care”. When a person
wilfully neglects an animal, that is being cruel to that animal.
If that individual does not take reasonable care of an animal and
departs from reasonable care, and does so in a very marked and
obvious way, such a person should, in my opinion, be very
severely chastised. No, they should be punished. This bill does
that, but by removing words like “wilful” and “marked
departure” it creates ambiguity and lack of clarity and allows
for interpretations that really give inadequate direction to the
people.
1655
The other one has to do with “wilful” and wilfully being cruel
to animals, directly. I know some young people who do terribly
cruel things. I once saw this happen and it was awful. They
wanted to kill this kitten. They put a string around its neck
and threw it from the top of a barn and let it hang there. That
is wilful cruelty and that should be punished.
There are penalties in this act, and I think the penalties show
the severity with which we will consider these particular acts.
If we are really going to get serious about this, we have to
recognize that certain amendments are necessary. As this bill
now goes to committee, there are certain amendments that I would
certainly encourage the Liberals to consider at that time. We
will be moving an amendment, for example, to have animal cruelty
provisions maintained in sections 444 to 446 or to make the
necessary changes to proposed section 182.1 to comply with the
concerns of farmers, hunters, agriculture groups, the fur trade
and others who harvest animals. This falls outside the things
that we talked about just now. We need to bring those things in
so that it is clear and specific and all people understand.
Second, in another example of an amendment, we will be moving an
amendment at committee stage to ensure legitimate individuals
involved in animal operations are not unduly subject to criminal
intent.
These amendments, and there will be others, quite a few of them,
are necessary to make this bill do what it is intended to do.
I commend the Liberal government for the intention of its bill,
but I would also remind it that we all agree on what should be
happening here, and with the best of intentions, even a good bill
can be improved by bringing certain amendments to it, which the
official opposition will present. I would encourage the Liberals
to please consider those amendments so that we can all live
together in greater peace and harmony and have legislation that
is even better than that which they have presented to the House.
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I was very interested in the comments of my
colleague. Of course we are coming at it from very much the same
perspective.
One of the things that seemed to be of greatest concern to the
people in my constituency was the issue of the potential for
there to be nuisance prosecutions.
For example, I have never been to a branding, where you bring in
all of the calves from the range around May or so. There is
really quite a wild event that goes on there. There is not only
branding of the cattle, but the male species of the animal also
undergoes another process that they probably are not all that
crazy about.
There are all of these things that go on. In taking a look at
some of the irresponsible actions that have been perpetrated
against the people who are involved in responsible resource
extraction and management, such as people in forestry and logging
and that kind of thing in the province of British Columbia and
indeed all across Canada, and some of the nuisance prosecutions
that have actually occurred, whereby people who have been
protesting have used every possible means to put over their
particular point of view and perspective, I wonder if there is
not the very real possibility that because of the apparent lack
of definition within this bill we could end up with these kinds
of nuisance prosecutions.
We could end up with that in regard to people who are deriving
their income from providing an exceptionally valuable service to
the people of Canada by providing us with the livestock that
becomes the bacon, the roasts of beef, the hamburgers, whatever
the case may be. As we take a look at that process and at there
being some nuisance people, might that not in fact be a concern
that we really should be focusing on, particularly when this goes
to committee?
1700
Mr. Werner Schmidt: Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for
raising that very valid issue. I did not raise it in my major
remarks because I did not have time to do it. It gives me the
opportunity to address the point of bringing together the
urban-rural split to which the member alluded in his earlier
remarks.
A number of pet owners say that they fixed their cat or dog. We
know exactly what that means. This is precisely the same thing
the member alluded to in his remarks. There is a distinct
possibility of nuisance lawsuits, criticisms or whatever to be
fostered. The act should be clear enough so that those nuisance
assaults on the freedom of an individual, or whatever we might
call them, are addressed and clearly taken outside the cruelty to
animals provisions within the act.
That is exactly what our amendments will try to do. It would
bring those kinds of issues to the attention of the government so
that it could create legislation with which we can all live and
actually make society better.
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, the member for Kelowna raised an very interesting
point. Someone was telling me a couple of days ago when we were
discussing this issue that people could not believe that calves
would be castrated without an anaesthetic.
On the other hand people who are in the business very clearly
and specifically understand how totally ludicrous it would be to
administer a form of anaesthetic in the situation they are in,
what would happen, and the havoc it would wreak in terms of the
management of livestock. Clearly we are dealing with an
egregious urban-rural split in understanding.
I am sure my colleague would agree with me that it puts all the
more emphasis on the committee process to ensure that people who
are at the committee have an opportunity to present both sides of
the story. In addition, the government should undertake a very
strong communication policy so that people understand what it is
all about.
Mr. Werner Schmidt: Mr. Speaker, once again I find myself
agreeing with my colleague. I would add one other dimension to
it. I am referring to the process that is being used by the
government to almost make the committee non-significant. The
legislation has drawn to the attention of the House the real
significance of the committee.
We will be proposing some very substantive amendments to the
legislation to uplift the importance of committees in the House
and parliament. As a consequence, if the government will take
that advice, the committees will feel good. Members in those
committees will not have to whine like they did in the
National Post this morning, and we will be able to live in
a better world.
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Mr.
Speaker, I will stick pretty close to my text so it will not be
as entertaining as some of my speeches. We are speaking to Bill
C-17. It is an omnibus bill, basically a bill encompassing many
acts in the one bill. That is obviously problematic for many
members because if we disagree with one aspect of the bill we are
labelled as disagreeing with all of it. That is not our position
as a party and I will be able to lay that out in some of my
remarks.
Bill C-17 is an act to amend the criminal code, cruelty to
animals, disarming a peace officer, other amendments, and some
technical amendments to the Firearms Act. It is very far ranging
and there is no linkage between any aspects of the bill.
In the justice department review of 1998 a consultation paper
entitled Crimes Against Animals was distributed to allow groups
and individuals to suggest modifications that would be required
to deal effectively with cruelty to animals.
The reasoning was that animal abuse is now recognized as a
common symptom of a deeper mental illness. Mounting scientific
evidence links animal abuse, domestic violence and violence
against people.
The public has been calling for more effective federal
legislation to deal with cases of cruelty to animals.
1705
There are numerous examples of cruelty to animals. Several high
profile cases, some of which have been mentioned already in the
House and in the newspapers, happened this year. A year old
rottweiler dog was dragged on a chain behind a pickup truck until
its paws were torn off and bloodied. Also in May there was a
case of a little pet pomeranian which was locked in a room. This
small dog was kicked, punched, thrown against a wall and placed
on a gas barbeque possibly while it was still alive.
Those are the types of horrific crimes we are hearing about more
frequently. The perpetrators were young offenders, identities
protected unfortunately. Currently in such cases an offender
would receive only six months in jail or a $2,000 fine and a two
year ban on having animals. Who would know what young offenders
would get? Maybe a slap on the wrist.
We still hear many cases of animal fighting, competitions for
gambling purposes and greyhound dogs that are bred for racing but
killed once they become too old. Questions are being asked. Is
there any protection for those animals?
The justice minister has explicitly linked animal abuse to rape
or child abuse citing U.S. studies which point out that those who
torture animals were more likely to do the same to humans. The
case we have often heard is that of Jeffrey Dahmer who brutally
dismembered and even practised cannibalism on his many victims.
He abused animals as a young boy.
For these people increased sentences and fines are a good idea.
We have to send a message. Depending on the charge, the sentence
could be anywhere from two years to a maximum of five years
imprisonment when the crown proceeded by indictment, or six to
eighteen months imprisonment and a fine of not more than $2,000
when the crown proceeded by way of summary conviction.
Presently the court could order prohibiting the accused from
owning an animal or having custody or control of an animal. In
Bill C-17 the court could also prohibit the accused from residing
in the same premises as an animal. The maximum length of
prohibition would also be changed from a maximum of two years to
any period the court felt appropriate. In the case of second and
subsequent offences it would be a minimum of five years.
In a further change the accused would pay reasonable costs
incurred to take care of the animal. Payment could be made to
any individual or organization that cared for the animal. It
would include such costs as veterinarian bills and other shelter
costs if they were obtainable.
There are other positive steps in the bill. We need to study
the bill very closely at committee stage. We will be doing that
through our justice critic to be sure that we do not criminalize,
and this is important to remember, farmers, hunters, trappers and
fishermen engaging in their way of life. Presently the bill is
too loosely worded and our party cannot support that aspect of
it. We have to tighten up the wording in that respect.
Under the proposed legislation farmers feel they could be
prosecuted for common practices such as branding or dehorning
cattle, an accepted practice in the beef industry. This is very
problematic. Some anglers are convinced that fishermen could be
charged for simply hooking a fish under the proposed federal
legislation. This problem has to be addressed and hopefully will
be addressed at committee stage.
The Canadian Jewish Congress has expressed worry that Bill C-17
might interfere with ritual Jewish slaughter methods. Biomedical
researchers are worried that their work may lead to criminal
prosecution as well. Some of these groups have requested that
the language in the legislation be clarified. They are concerned
with possible interpretation of phrases such as unnecessary pain,
suffering or injury and brutally or viciously killing an animal.
1710
They want protection for practices such as identification,
medical treatment, spaying or neutering; provision of food or
other animal products; hunting, trapping, fishing and other
sporting activities conducted in accordance with the lawful rules
relating to them; pest, predator or disease control as we would
not want to throw someone in jail for shooting a rat; protection
of persons or property; scientific research unless the risk of
injury or serious physical pain is disproportionate to the
benefit expected from the research; and disciplining or training
of an animal.
Our party position is clear that legislation is needed to punish
those who intentionally abuse and neglect animals. Let us be
sure of that. However, in targeting those who intentionally
cause animal suffering, the legislation also leaves at risk those
who practise traditional occupations such as farming, hunting,
fishing and trapping. Those of us representing rural areas of
the country can certainly relate to that.
We support other aspects of the bill. We recognize that the
legislative section to protect against cruelty to animals is
noble in its intention. This oversight makes Bill C-17
ineffective and dangerous to law-abiding citizens. Therefore the
bill, if it remains in its current form, will not be supported by
our party. We want some tightening of the wording.
The government has been scrambling to assure hunters and farmers
that the bill is not intended to target them and that they need
not worry about being jailed for their standard practices.
However the current wording of the bill is too loose and criminal
prosecution of members of virtually all animal related
professions is a very real legal possibility under the provisions
of the bill.
The existing legislation forbids the wilful causing of
unnecessary pain, suffering or injury to an animal. The proposed
bill would remove the word wilful. This change would make
prosecution easier, putting livestock farmers at risk for
carrying out their normal business.
In addition the criminal code currently prohibits unnecessary
pain, suffering or injury of animals. With one of the new animal
care provisions, however, conviction is called for when there is
any pain, suffering or injury. The proposed change reveals
unreasonable expectations. It is impossible for farmers, or
animal producers more generally speaking, to protect their
animals from any pain or injury. Additionally it is unacceptable
to place farmers, hunters or trappers at risk of prosecution if
any pain or injury occurs.
I believe legislation is needed to prevent needless animal pain
and suffering. The graphic illustrations of animal cruelty I
mentioned earlier should not be tolerated. The law should
explicitly protect animals from this senseless violence. The
traditional practices of hunting, fishing, farming, et cetera, do
not fit into the category of meanspirited violence. It is
imperative that animal cruelty legislation be clearly designed to
target only those who would engage in brutal actions against
animals.
The justice minister has been contemplating an amendment that
would exempt farmers, hunters and animal researchers from the
bill. A change is certainly needed to provide legal security to
lawful practitioners of animal related professions.
When one considers a genuine need for clear progressive
legislation in this area, the carelessness of the Liberal
government is dismaying. It is disheartening. It is obvious
that little consideration was given to the effect the bill would
have on many honest hardworking people who depend on farming and
similar occupations for their livelihood. It is reminiscent of
many pieces of legislation the government has put through. Not
much foresight, work or consultation with the community has gone
into it.
1715
It is also discouraging that the government's lack of foresight
could cause this bill which deals with many other issues to be
opposed due to loose wording in the part dealing with cruelty to
animals, hence our opposition to these omnibus bills. They are
very problematic.
Instead of contemplating its actions fully from the start the
government chose to proceed with a sloppy piece of legislation.
Now as it is exceedingly clear that the original plan was
inadequate, the government wants to retrace its steps. Had it
been more conscientious at the beginning, this repetition would
have been avoided. Time and money have been squandered as a
result of the failure of the government to consider the needs and
wants of Canadians on this issue.
Having grown up on a farm in New Brunswick has given me a great
respect for animals but also a respect for farmers, hunters and
trappers. For that reason I am anxious to see the bill go to
committee where our justice critic will have a chance to force
the government to redraft the cruelty to animals part to ensure
that it will be an effective deterrent to those who would be
unnecessarily cruel to an animal.
In its current form the loose wording of the bill could make
unwitting criminals out of hunters, fishermen and farmers. We
will not support this part of the bill because of this loose
wording.
Disarming a police officer is another part of the bill of which
we are very supportive. The offence of disarming or attempting
to disarm a police officer is a proposal initiated by suggestions
by the Canadian Police Association at its annual general meeting
a year ago. We need to send a strong message to the public.
Serious danger to police officers will not be tolerated when they
are deprived of their weapons as they carry out investigations to
make arrests.
The new section would define “weapon” for the purposes of
subsection (1) as any thing that is designed to be used to cause
injury or death to, or to temporarily incapacitate a person,
including firearms, pepper spray, et cetera. For a hybrid
offence, there is a maximum penalty of five years imprisonment
when the crown proceeds by indictment or a minimum of 18 months
imprisonment when the crown proceeds by summary conviction.
The president of the Canadian Police Association, the
organization that initiated the process leading to the proposed
offence of disarming a police officer, has stated that the
members of the association “welcome the introduction of this new
law and encourage its speedy passage by parliament”. We are
very supportive of that.
The government could do more for police, including providing
funding and the resources they need to do their job. However,
this is a step in the right direction at very little cost to the
government to help protect the police so they can protect us, the
public.
There are other amendments to the criminal code. The definition
of “child” in the criminal code section dealing with offences
against the person and reputation is repealed. The current
definition defines child as including an adopted child and an
illegitimate child. The amendment would remove the negative and
unnecessary reference to “illegitimate child” in the criminal
code. We support that.
Sexual exploitation of a person with a disability is added to
the list of other criminal code sexual offences for which there
are special evidentiary rules. A person with a disability who
was the victim of sexual exploitation would receive the same
evidentiary protection as afforded to other victims who testify
at a trial.
There are technical amendments to the Firearms Act. I think the
government is backpedalling on this. Our position is very clear.
The government botched the firearms legislation from the very
beginning in basically attempting to make criminals out of
law-abiding Canadians.
1720
Our party would certainly repeal Bill C-68, the unnecessary
licensing and registration of firearms which again relates to
those very sectors we talked about earlier. Our position on that
is very clear.
Again it is a case of the government bringing in very sloppy
legislation, not knowing what it was doing. Instead of
addressing the criminal element, which it could by putting
resources into the RCMP and other police forces to help them do
their jobs well and effectively, it has targeted the innocent
law-abiding Canadian. Therefore we are opposed to that
legislation. We were opposed to it in 1997. We still have huge
reservations on the firearms legislation and we would repeal
that. We would kill it or change it and revert to what we used
to have. I think our position on that is pretty clear. We would
repeal that legislation.
Some of the amendments to the Firearms Act are being called
technical amendments. These amendments are being brought in
because the government is attempting to backpedal on that very
onerous piece of legislation which was called Bill C-68 in the
last parliament.
Our position is clear on Bill C-17. Our justice critic has led
the charge for our party on this very issue. Our party looks
forward to making interventions at the committee stage. We hope
that the government will listen and bring in changes that will
allow the legislation to be fixed up so we will not be putting an
unnecessary burden on our hunters, fishermen and farmers.
Mr. Maurice Vellacott (Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, Canadian
Alliance): Madam Speaker, I wonder if the member from the
maritimes could indicate specifically how the bill would impact
his riding and the people throughout his riding, particularly in
the area of the amendment regarding cruelty to animals. I ask
the hon. member to give us some examples of its impact.
Mr. Greg Thompson: Madam Speaker, we could let our
imaginations run wild. For example, when anyone in the beef
industry processes an animal or slaughters an animal, it could be
interpreted under the bill as being cruel to the animal. Not all
of us are vegetarians, and I mean no disrespect to those who are,
but certainly the harvesting of meat, if you will, either by
hunting or raising beef, is big in my riding. It is a rural
riding.
I also mention fishermen. When we did our research on that
legislation, the example of baiting a hook was used. The worm
will be subjected to a lot of cruel punishment by keeping it on
the hook. What is the correct method of pulling a fish out of
the water? Obviously this could be interpreted as unreasonable
punishment or cruelty to the fish.
Those are extreme examples, but the truth is that the wording in
the legislation is not tight enough or correct in terms of
interpretation. People could have a lot to worry about unless
the bill is changed. Those are very specific examples.
There are mink ranchers in my riding as well. That is something
that industry has had to watch very carefully over the years.
Even though it is not fashionable in some circles, it is still an
industry. We all wear leather shoes for the most part.
Those are all examples where legitimate businesses could be
threatened under the legislation as it is now proposed.
We look forward to our justice critic driving home some of those
points at the committee. We hope the government will listen and
change those specific areas of the bill where it could impede on
citizens' rights to make a living, whether they are fishermen,
farmers, trappers, et cetera.
1725
Mr. Rick Casson (Lethbridge, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, I would like the member to comment on the same question
I asked of someone earlier.
One of the problems with this issue is that a bit of a
rural-urban split has been created. Certainly we all believe
that anyone who is cruel to an animal should face the full force
of the law. Possibly anyone who does should never be in control
of another animal in his or her entire life. However we have been
talking a bit today about the balance between the agricultural
sector and the food producers, the need to protect animals, and
the outlook that people who live in urban centres have toward
some of this.
I believe a lot of what we need to do is in educating the two
sectors so that people understand where their food comes from,
how it is raised, the code of practices that people who work in
the livestock and food industries work under and how careful they
are with their animals.
I would like the member to comment on what angle he would take
on the education that needs to take place in Canada.
Mr. Greg Thompson: Madam Speaker, that is a very good
point.
Some of us are so accustomed to going to the grocery store that
we think beef is raised in the store and comes in nice, neat
little packages. Education is a big part of it.
Sometimes I am amazed at some of the animal rights people. One
example which always comes to mind is when Brigitte Bardot shows
up on the ice floes of Newfoundland trying to kill the seal
industry. She is always wearing a fur coat and $5,000 alligator
shoes. I often ask is that not a double standard?
In all seriousness, part of this is educating our young people
about our custodial relationship with animals and the beauty of
taking care of them, how important they are and how important
some of these industries are. Good practices are taking place on
our ranches and farms to ensure that animals, God's creatures,
are being treated in a very humane fashion, but it must be
understood that they are a food source as well and do serve a
purpose on this earth of ours. In almost a spiritual sense, it
very much is that education should take place and it has not up
to this point.
I thank the member for the question. It is a very good point.
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Canadian Alliance):
Madam Speaker, I asked this question earlier of another member.
The difficulty we as legislators have is in trying to find the
balance. Under this legislation we could have one side, for
example puppy mills which I think most Canadians would say is
certainly not on, however we go to the other extreme which is a
mousetrap. How do we as legislators find that balance in this
legislation so that we protect one side but do push the
legislation too far in the other direction? How does the member
see us striking that balance?
Mr. Greg Thompson: Madam Speaker, it is an old fashioned
word. Mark Twain often said there is nothing wrong with using a
10 cent word when there is no need to use a 25 cent word. It is
common sense and practical solutions where we engage the public
in the process.
One of the shortcomings of the present government is it has not
engaged the public in this. There is a balance between what we
want to see done and limits on the other side. In all practical
terms, most Canadians know where that line is. I think we as
legislators do.
What we are not seeing from the government is the practical
reality that this has to be something we can all live with at the
end of the day. The term I used in my remarks earlier was
carelessness. It is just an example of the government waking up
one morning, getting out of bed and saying “Listen, let us bring
in some legislation that will deal with this” but it is not
applying a common sense approach to it.
1730
I would say they probably have too many people penning this
legislation in their ivory towers, people who have never been on
a farm, have never fished and have no understanding of what it is
like to live in some parts of the country where that is done for
a living.
It is not unlike a lot of the legislation that has come to this
place from time to time as a result of acting in haste and acting
in a way not consistent with good government, and certainly not
consulting with the people. Again, it is a good question, but it
is that balance that governments have to strike, and it is
usually done in consultation and in working with the opposition
parties, which obviously the government has not done on this
piece of legislation. It has basically left it to the
bureaucrats to craft it, and this is what we are left with.
Mr. David Chatters (Athabasca, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, I am pleased to be able to engage in this debate today
on Bill C-17.
I have some real concerns about the bill and what the bill is
proposing to do in a number of areas. Of course it has been said
time and time again that it is an omnibus bill and it covers a
lot of territory. I have also heard a number of people express
the opinion that the intent of the bill is honourable and that
they support the intent of the bill. However, in the seven years
I have been in the House and been an elected member, I have
become perhaps somewhat cynical about the intentions or the
motives behind some of these things.
It seems to me if the government were serious about dealing with
some of the issues in the bill, it would have certainly separated
out the issues and brought them forth in individual bills. Many
of them could have proceeded through the House without
controversy and probably have been supported by all parties.
Instead, the government lumps it all together with issues that
are very controversial and others that are not as controversial,
and what we get is a bill such as this one, which in my opinion
is absolutely full of holes.
I am suspect of the government's motives on the issue. For
example, the government expresses great concern about dealing
with the sadistic perverts who would impose horrendous cruelty on
animals. Yet this same government that is so offended by the
possibility that people do that. They do that, and I find it
extremely offensive, along with probably everybody else. It is
the same Liberal government that gave somebody something like a
$15,000 Canada Council grant to produce a piece of art with dead
bunnies hanging on it to display in our National Gallery. Does
that not fit with this concern for the welfare of animals and the
needless cruelty to animals? One immediately becomes suspect of
the intention of the bill.
Even regarding the clause in the bill on toughening up the
penalty for disarming a police officer, one thinks that is a good
idea. We could support that idea, but when we look at history,
disarming a police officer has for some time been a criminal
offence. The government in its wisdom thought the penalty needed
to be greater for disarming a police officer. Instead of imposing
the law that exists by imposing upon the courts a minimum
sentence of three years, which is the current maximum sentence,
apparently, and forcing the courts to treat it as a more serious
offence, the government introduces a bill that places a maximum
penalty of five years for disarming a police officer.
Rarely, if ever, do the courts impose a maximum sentence on
anybody for any offence, and it is very unlikely that the courts
will impose the maximum sentence.
1735
What did the government achieve by raising the penalty from
three years to five years and making it a maximum penalty? I do
not think it has achieved anything except some political rhetoric
and some smoke and mirrors to convince the public that it is
concerned with the offence and to respond to the police
association's call for stiffer penalties. If it were really
serious, it simply would have imposed a minimum sentence of three
or five years for that offence, but it did not. I am suspect of
the government's motives in terms of this bill.
If we go to the other clause of the bill concerning firearms
regulations and the cosmetic changes being made there, again I
become suspect, simply because the regulations that accompanied
Bill C-68, which never came through the House, never saw the
light of public debate in the House of Commons, are far more
onerous than the changes that are part of the legislation being
introduced to the House. I ask myself what motivated the
government to bring this in as legislation rather than simply
changing the regulations around Bill C-68 and solving whatever
the problem was that it intended to solve.
I become suspect of the government's motives in introducing an
omnibus bill. Certainly I see all kinds of loopholes that could
and probably will at some point be in the courts dealing with the
legislation.
I see some real conflict in a couple of places with the
provincial wildlife act. The bill specifically includes the
practice of baiting as a criminal offence. In many provinces in
Canada, including my own, the practice of bear baiting both in
the spring and in the fall is a common practice and one that is
legal under the provincial wildlife act. Now the bill is in
conflict with the provincial legislation and no doubt will take
precedence over the legislation.
Another clause that in my opinion contravenes the provincial
wildlife act is the clause dealing with subparagraph 446(1)(c) of
the criminal code, which says:
being the owner or the person having the custody or control of a
domestic animal or a bird or an animal or a bird wild by nature
that is in captivity, abandons it in distress or wilfully
neglects or fails to provide suitable and adequate food, water,
shelter and care for it;
In my province of Alberta, under the wildlife act it is against
the law to keep a wild animal in captivity, injured or otherwise,
and to provide food for that animal. That is an offence under
provincial law. I know that because I am married to a woman with
a heart as big as all outdoors when it comes to animals. On
occasion she receives from many people wild animals that have
been injured and hurt. Her heart goes out to them and she spends
a great deal of time and care nursing them back to health, trying
to help them regain strength to go back into the wild. On more
than one occasion provincial wildlife officers have threatened to
prosecute her for doing that, because that is not a legal
practice. Bill C-17 is in direct conflict with the provincial
wildlife act.
As I was listening to members making their speeches and reading
the bill, something came to my mind about the definition of the
animal the bill is in fact meant to protect, animal meaning a
vertebrate other than a human being and any other animal that has
the capacity to feel pain.
It struck me that it is just a matter of time until the pro-life
movement looks at that clause.
1740
It has been determined by the courts on more than one occasion
that a fetus or an unborn baby is in fact not a human. It is
something else, something other than human. I would argue that
it would be pretty hard to say that a fetus is not a vertebrate.
Certainly the practice of aborting that fetus could be considered
cruelty to that animal and that issue could be taken to court.
I am sure most of us realize a raging debate is ongoing in the
country now about the practice of abortion and whether or not the
fetus feels pain from that process. People are saying
precautions should be taken to mitigate that pain. The bill would
lay open anybody performing an abortion to prosecution. That
seems to me a serious loophole and certainly beyond, I am sure,
what the government intended to do with the bill.
Moving on to the whole clause on cruelty to animals, we have
heard over and over again of some real problems, loopholes and
concerns among a number of groups. Having been in the business
of animal husbandry all my life, it concerns me. I cannot
believe that the government, with the resources at its disposal,
the best legal minds in the country, could not draft a bill that
would be able to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law those
who would wilfully and criminally be cruel to animals and at the
same time would provide wording that would protect livestock
producers, trappers, and harvesters of animals.
The existing act says no one shall wilfully be cruel to animals.
I suggest probably everybody in the House at one time or another
wilfully did something that caused pain or was cruel to an
animal, a vertebrate. We have heard discussions all day about
the various ways in which that is done. Unfortunately in my years
of raising livestock I have on many occasions had to wilfully
inflict pain upon my animals in the business I was in. I took no
pleasure from that. In fact it was very difficult and
heart-wrenching sometimes to have to do some of the things that
have to be done when one is in the business of raising livestock,
but it is a necessary part of that business.
We heard discussion about baiting a mousetrap and catching a
mouse in one's house, cabin, barn, or wherever. I defy anybody
who has ever seen a mouse caught in a trap to say that animal
does not suffer and that is not cruel. I raised this point
earlier today in questions and answers. I defy anybody in the
House to tell me that taking a live lobster and dropping it into
a pot of boiling water does not cause pain and is not cruel. We
could go on and on and on.
We heard a number of members raise the concern of the religious
and cultural communities that since biblical times have engaged
in the practice of ritual slaughter of animals. It is quite
common. I have seen it performed, and I can certainly assure
everyone that no one could deny it inflicts pain and cruelty on
that animal.
We have not prosecuted, and I hope it is not the government's
intention to prosecute, those people who do those things. It has
not been the practice of courts nor law enforcement officers to
enforce the letter of the law when it comes to that.
1745
This generally goes back to one phrase, the phrase that protects
people who wilfully and knowingly inflict pain: that they did
not have criminal intent. Removal of that clause no longer
requires there to be criminal intent to be prosecuted and is
extremely dangerous. It lays open to prosecution anybody who
engages in any of those activities that I mentioned. I cannot
believe that the lawyers involved in the drafting of the bill
could not have achieved the intent without laying open to
prosecution legitimate livestock producers and everyday, average
citizens in the course of their lives. The bill is extremely
offensive and dangerous.
The inconsistencies in the bill blow me away. I cannot, for the
life of me, figure out why cruelty to animals would have been put
in the sexual offences section of the criminal code. Why would
we put it there? That does not make any sense to me. What
connection is there between cruelty to animals and sexual
offences? It is as incomprehensible as throwing the disarming of
a police officer into a bill designed to prevent cruelty to
animals.
It would have made more sense to me, having had a number of
representations over the last year and a half, for the government
to have provided an extraordinary penalty in the cruelty to
animals legislation for someone who would deliberately and
wilfully kill a police dog in the line of duty. It would make
much more sense to me to have an extraordinary penalty put in the
legislation to deal with the killing of a police dog than the
disarming of the police dog's master. It does not fit there and
it does not belong there.
The bill is very confusing. I hope we will have adequate
opportunity in committee to get answers to those questions. The
debate has been going on all day in the House and the government
has not been responding to any of our questions and has not
provided any insight into the intent of any particular clause.
There is another area that I want to raise. We have heard a lot
of discussion today about the rural-urban split. That is where
the bill runs into trouble because urban people do not understand
the raising and slaughter of livestock for food and all the rest
of it. I am not sure the rural-urban split really applies here
nearly as much as what we have been led to believe simply because
the concept of being cruel to animals is not restricted to people
on the farm. Certainly people in the city engage in activities
that are just as liable for prosecuted as people raising
livestock.
The animal rights movement has been working for some years to
portray animals as something other than what we, in the livestock
industry, would consider them to be.
1750
I read an article recently about the need for a bill of rights
for primates and how that would protect the rights of primates.
We then get into the rights of animals, how distasteful it is to
raise animals in confinement, how they should be running free and
all the rest of it.
I understand that perhaps urban people would not understand what
that is all about but we have a Hollywood version of animals. My
grandson and I recently watched a movie about a pig raised on a
farm. The pig's father was sent off to the slaughterhouse to be
slaughtered and become bacon on the table. The poor family was
left behind and the young pig had to take responsibility for his
family. It was terrible, sad and it went on and on. Needless to
say, the young pig eventually rescued his father from the
slaughterhouse and saved the day.
The whole concept of seeing animals in that context is
ludicrous. Some years ago I saw a movie with Chevy Chase where
he tied his dog to the bumper and dragged it until it was no
more. That was supposed to be a comedy.
I see I have run out of time so I will save the rest of my
remarks for another day.
Mr. Darrel Stinson (Okanagan—Shuswap, Canadian
Alliance): Madam Speaker, as I listened to the member's
speech many things came to the forefront, the first being the
many scopes to the bill.
In this piece of legislation that the government is trying to
put through, why would it put under cruelty to animals, penalties
for disarming police officers? It almost seems like the
government is putting part of a bill through so it can use it to
campaign on. If we have a problem with the cruelty to animals
aspect of it and do not vote for the total package it could be
said that we were not standing up for penalties being imposed on
people who disarm peace officers, which is not the case at all.
The government has come before the House and the Canadian public
with a bill that is half rotten and half good. What we are being
told from the government side, I would say to the hon. member who
just spoke, is that we should hold our noses for the smell on the
front end and hope that the rose at the back end will outweigh
it. That is one of the problems I have with the bill.
This piece of legislation does not exactly define what cruelty
to animals is. When some of us from rural areas happen to go
into large cities we often see people walking around with large
dogs. Many of these people live in apartments. When we see a
dog that weighs 140 or 160 pounds being kept inside a small
apartment, some of us see that as a cruel act. What is the
definition and how far is the government willing to carry it? Who
will lay the charges? Does the bill lay it open to anybody to
lay charges against a person? If that is the case, will they
come forward and identify themselves or can it be just used as a
malicious act upon somebody who is no longer liked?
The bill has no beginning and no end. We are leaving it again
to the courts and judges to decide the law when that should be
our job here.
I would like to know if the hon. member has answers to these
questions. I cannot seem to find the answers anywhere. I have
not heard any of the government members stand up to speak on this
issue today so that I could ask them questions.
Mr. David Chatters: Madam Speaker, I am glad to see that
I am not the only one to become cynical in our time here.
1755
The member raises some good points. Again, I am being cynical,
but if the government really were serious about addressing the
problems outlined in the bill, it could have done so far more
effectively than it did with this bill. I believe that by making
this an omnibus bill and by leaving it so wide open to
interpretation, part of the intent was to simply confound the
opposition, as the member said.
It works to some degree. As an opposition party, we look at
each bill, we listen to the critic, and we debate whether or not
we support the legislation. This bill has provided a conundrum
to the opposition in that we generally support some aspects of
the bill but not others. I think it is intentional by the
government to create that environment within the opposition. The
intention is not as honourable as perhaps we would like it to be.
The desire to solve the problem that exists is not nearly as
strong as it could be.
On the other aspect of the member's comments dealing with the
rural-urban split, I would agree with him that the concept of a
rottweiler or a great dane living in an apartment building in the
city is no less distasteful than a pig or a chicken being raised
in a pen or a cage without adequate room to exercise and to enjoy
the freedom and the light that perhaps it should be allowed to
enjoy. The concept of a rural-urban split is less than what we
are suggesting it is.
I hope the government allows us the time in committee to have a
thorough discussion, and that the government will be open to the
suggestions in committee to change the bill to actually achieve
some good things that are honourable and should be achieved. If
the government would allow that to happen, then I think we could
turn this into a bill that has merit and that we could support.
Certainly in its existing form it is unsupportable.
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, I heard my hon. colleague suggest that not one member
from the Liberal side of the House has spoken to the bill today.
That arouses in me probably the greatest cynicism I have ever had
here.
It seems to me we have some intelligent human beings sitting on
the Liberal side of House who put the bill together. One begins
to wonder that they have absolutely nothing to say about the
bill. Are they so ashamed of the bill that they would not dare
say anything in opposition to what we have suggested here as
serious questions or flaws in the bill? Do they just want to
bury their heads, so to speak, and just let the bill go? Or,
could it be that the real intention of the bill is to once again
appear to be doing something but in fact not be doing anything?
Yet there is an insidious, deep seriousness with the bill that
could have an impact on a whole host of things. It could destroy
certain individuals who are trying to make an honest living
through hunting or through the raising of animals for food. Just
what is going on here?
It becomes significant that we answer some of these questions.
As the hon. member has said and as my hon. colleague over on the
other side of the fence has said very clearly, we must get clear
definitions of what is meant in the bill and of what cruelty to
animals actually is. Let us be clear about this. We are not
hearing anything from the government.
I know some of the members who are sitting in the House right at
the moment, and I know some of their capabilities. They are not
rising. What is it? Is it because it is the way we have it here
and they are ashamed of their legislation? Or, is it because
they do not want to create the impression or tell us the truth
about what they actually want the bill to do? Could the hon.
member comment on that?
Mr. David Chatters: Madam Speaker, my colleague makes a
good point. I mentioned in the question and comment section
earlier that during one of the presentations I overheard from the
backbenches the hon. member for Simcoe—Grey suggesting this
provides protection for livestock producers. That should be a
big issue in his riding, simply because it is one of the largest
cattle producing areas in the country.
I am really concerned that the particular member is going back to
Simcoe—Grey and telling his constituents that this bill in fact
provides protection for his cattle producers because it simply is
not so. That would concern me. I could understand that from
some of the urban members who perhaps do not have an interest in
the bill, however they should.
1800
I really would have enjoyed hearing the member for
Dufferin—Peel—Wellington—Grey make some comments in response
to our concerns today. I understand he is a livestock producer
and many of these concerns—
Mr. Murray Calder: Chicken farmer.
Mr. David Chatters: He says he is not a livestock
producer, he is a chicken farmer. That is okay by me, but as a
chicken farmer he should have some of the same concerns that we
have raised about the bill. I would be fascinated to hear him
explain to us why he is not concerned about legislation to
provide some protection, not only to himself as a producer, but
to the other livestock producers in his constituency.
The silence is deafening over there. It is really worrisome to
those of us on this side who represent cattle producers. I think
the only answer is an election. It will be another issue on
which we can fight the election in our ridings. We will come
back after the election as government and we will reintroduce the
bill in a form that will provide that protection. That is the
answer.
Mr. Maurice Vellacott (Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, Canadian
Alliance): Madam Speaker, for the sake of our viewers who are
tuning in across the country, those who are arriving home from
work, getting that channel zapper and tuning in to hear the
debate in the House of Commons today or those who are just
getting up from the supper table, putting their feet up or
getting their slippers on, we are discussing Bill C-17.
This is a Liberal bill that is before us. It is an act to amend
the criminal code, cruelty to animals, disarming a peace officer
and other amendments and the Firearms Act, technical amendments.
That is the title, and as it suggests, it is an omnibus bill,
which is to say that this often odious method of government mixes
some good with other unrelated problematic legislation, which is what is
before us this hour.
We have no objection to the latter two other aspects of this
bill which are the disarming a peace officer, which is a good and
necessary thing, and the technical amendments to the Firearms
Act.
Bill C-17 would make it a criminal offence for everyone who,
without the consent of the peace officer, takes or attempts to
take a weapon that is in the possession of that peace officer
when the peace officer is engaged in the execution of his or her
duty. Everyone who commits this offence is guilty of an
indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not
exceeding five years, or is guilty of an offence punishable on
summary conviction and liable to imprisonment for a term not
exceeding 18 months.
As I previously stated, we support this particular amendment.
In fact, in my constituency, a place called Warman, Saskatchewan
just north of Saskatoon in the Saskatoon—Wanuskewin
constituency, there is a large recreational centre that was put
together by the good folk of that community and possibly with
some government money. It is called the Brian King Centre and
was named in memory of a wonderfully dedicated member of the
Saskatoon police force who was killed in the line of duty when he
was jumped by two individuals who took his gun. In commando
style, they had him kneel on the banks of the river in
Saskatchewan shot him through the head and killed him. He left a
young widow and children. It was a very tragic story. This
would be one particular address to that kind of situation.
We need respect for authority. We need respect for RCMP
officers and for city and municipal police. The Canadian
Alliance supports our police officers across the country and
respects this particular part of Bill C-17.
I note this past Sunday on Parliament Hill there were numbers of
dignitaries and police officers.
It is an important event that occurs on an annual basis where we
recognize our police officers, those who have lost their lives in
the line of duty. I referred to just one, but there have been
other police officers who have been jumped, assaulted and shot
with their own guns.
1805
Without question we want to give this kind of a tool to the
judiciary with respect to justice officials so that they can
prosecute in a very serious way those who have disarmed a police
officer. Of course, in these other cases there were murder
charges for the criminals who killed the individual from my
constituency, Brian King.
The section in Bill C-17 concerning the amendment to the
Firearms Act is simply a technical amendment. It is a cosmetic
thing. It simply grandfathers the inventories of prohibited
handguns held by businesses in mid-February 1995 so they can sell
to individuals eligible under the act. A further amendment
adjusts employee licensing requirements so that it better
reflects appropriate firearms safety training for employees as
opposed to some of the non-restrictive firearms.
We have no problem with those two parts of Bill C-17. However,
as we said before, omnibus bills are quite objectionable. It
includes excellent and very necessary legislation combined with
flawed legislation, using good legislation to slip through flawed
and problematic legislation. That is the problem.
The government's side will say, as it is already setting up to
do, that the official opposition does not support making it a
criminal offence for disarming a police officer. That will be
the spin and its approach to this. Members can mark my words on
that. That is the approach that will be taken, especially if
past history is an accurate judge of this. That is how it
handles the omnibus bills. It slips through these nefarious,
unpopular and sometimes not good pieces of legislation by way of
something that is good.
The genesis of changes to cruelty to animals is to no longer
treat cruelty to animals as a property crime. We have some basic
agreement with the intent of this part of the bill. What the
government is doing though is making a new provision, moving the
cruelty to animals to section 4 of the criminal code under sexual
offences, which would be renamed sexual offences, public morals,
disorderly conduct and cruelty to animals. That is currently
contained in sections 444 to 446, part XI of the criminal code.
This section of the criminal code protects a person from being
convicted of an offence if that person acted with legal
justification. That is the way it stands now. It is adequate.
It serves us quite properly.
However, agricultural groups, anglers, hunter groups, and the
Fur Council of Canada want cruelty to animals to remain in
section 444 to 446. They fear that by moving the cruelty section
to sexual offences it will make it easier for them to be
prosecuted. They argue quite rightly that those who lawfully and
legitimately harvest animals for business will not be protected
if the cruelty section is changed. They are not reassured by the
minister's words. She has said that it does not pertain to them
or apply to them and that it is not an issue, yet for some
strange reason they are not at all reassured by the her words.
Therefore, as has been indicated by members before, we are going
to be moving an amendment at committee stage to have the animal
cruelty provisions back under sections 444 to 446, or make those
necessary changes to section 182.1 to comply with and allay the
concerns of these farmers, hunters and agricultural groups and
others who harvest animals.
The second point of the cruelty to animals section of Bill C-17
that causes concern is the amendment in the bill which proposes
to take out the words wilfully or wilful as a defence if a person
has been charged. That has been mentioned before. The removal
of those words would make prosecution easier but not proper in
many instances where one is involved in the legitimate slaughter
of animals or the raising of animals for legitimate use or
harvesting. We all appreciate that when we eat meat at mealtime
it is because we have animals that can be killed humanely,
quickly and prepared for our tables.
1810
We believe there is reason to add the terms wilful and
wilfully back into Bill C-17 to assuage or allay the concerns
of various individuals.
The Canadian Alliance will be moving an amendment at committee
stage to ensure that legitimate individuals involved in animal
operations are not unduly subject to criminal intent.
There is another part of the bill which was referred to before,
but it bears repeating because many people have tuned in since
those features were given. The amendment that proposes that
criminal intent for animal cruelty can be simply civil negligence
is a part of the bill which causes concern for legitimate animal
operations. It lowers the burden of proof, if you will.
Agriculture groups would like to see “wilful neglect” or
“marked departure from the exercise of reasonable care” put
back in and maintained. It should be reinstated. It should not
be something like a civil negligence which is a lower burden of
proof and could possibly be used to prosecute farmers trying to
carry out normal farming operations and cattle management, et
cetera.
We as well will introduce an amendment at committee stage to
ensure there is the proper recognition of that need to protect
legitimate farm operators from prosecution.
The fourth area of concern in Bill C-17 is what is called animal
care provisions. The bill proposes convictions when there is any
pain or suffering or injury to an animal. In other words,
animals have feelings too.
Currently the criminal code prohibits unnecessary pain. It is
only common sense and one does not have to be a legal beagle or a
lawyer to know that removing the word “unnecessary” could open
up a whole area for conviction. As someone pointed out, putting
a worm on a hook could become a problem for a fisherman if
somebody was a little overzealous and got on that case. That is
unrealistic and it is too loose and open for interpretation and
prosecution. We will move an amendment to re-establish the word
“unnecessary” to protect anglers and others who are conducting
a sporting activity.
The fifth area of concern is where Bill C-17 states that anyone
who kills an animal or being the owner permits an animal to be
killed brutally or viciously, regardless of whether the animal
dies immediately, is guilty of a criminal offence. Again that
part is very subjective and is open to a lot of latitude. It is
very ambiguous and must be defined more clearly.
The bill raises the penalty for intentional cruelty to an animal
from the current penalty of six months to five years and lifts
the cap on the fine which is currently $2,000. This is
appropriate in the area of cruelty to pets and where cruelty can
be established in other practices.
The lifetime ban on owning an animal without doubt is
appropriate in cases of pet abuse.
The intent of the bill on the whole is legitimate. No one wants
to see animals abused in any way, but there is a need to clarify
the language surrounding some of the parts that we have cited
here so as to ensure that legitimate individuals involved in the
raising and harvesting of animals are not subject to unnecessary
and unfair indictment.
We will support the bill at second reading, but we warn the
government that it needs to amend the bill to meet the legitimate
concerns that have been outlined. If it does not, we will oppose
it at third reading.
Last but not least, I want to draw attention to a very cruel
irony which has been alluded to before. It is the cruel irony
that we take the kind of steps included in this bill to protect
animals from any pain, but we have no protection for vulnerable
preborn children right through the entire nine months of a
pregnancy.
We can use a saline solution and burn the skin off a tiny,
vulnerable pre-born child. We can violently suction a baby's
arms or legs or other body parts. We can tear them violently
apart, no problem, from limb to limb, but the speedy branding of
livestock may bring criminal sanctions. To be consistent, we
need to have some basic protection for a preborn child. We have
got the order of importance mixed up here to some degree.
We also need to show respect for human life, the sanctity of
life. All life must be returned—
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[English]
1911 CENSUS RECORDS
The House resumed from September 20 consideration of the motion,
and of the amendment.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Order, please. I am afraid
that at this point I must interrupt the hon. member. It being
6.15 p.m., pursuant to order made earlier today, the House will
now proceed to the taking of several deferred recorded divisions.
Call in the members.
1835
And the bells having rung:
The Speaker: Pursuant to order made on Wednesday, September 20, 2000, the
House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred recorded
divisions on Motion M-160 under private members' business.
The question is on the amendment.
1850
(The House divided on the amendment, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Alcock
| Anderson
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Baker
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
|
Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
|
Brown
| Bulte
| Cannis
| Caplan
|
Carroll
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Comuzzi
| Cotler
| Crête
| Cullen
|
Debien
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dromisky
|
Drouin
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duhamel
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Finlay
| Folco
| Fontana
|
Fry
| Gagliano
| Godfrey
| Goodale
|
Graham
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Harb
|
Harvard
| Hubbard
| Ianno
| Iftody
|
Jackson
| Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Laurin
|
Lavigne
| Lee
| Lefebvre
| Leung
|
Limoges
| Lincoln
| Longfield
| MacAulay
|
Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
|
Marleau
| Matthews
| McCormick
| McGuire
|
McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
|
Mifflin
| Mitchell
| Murray
| Myers
|
Nault
| Normand
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
|
O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
|
Patry
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Pratt
|
Price
| Proud
| Proulx
| Redman
|
Reed
| Richardson
| Robillard
| Rocheleau
|
Rock
| Saada
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Sekora
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| St. Denis
| St - Jacques
|
St - Julien
| Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
|
Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
|
Wappel
| Whelan
| Wilfert
| Wood – 144
|
NAYS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Anders
| Asselin
|
Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
| Bergeron
|
Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Blaikie
| Borotsik
|
Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brien
| Bryden
| Cadman
|
Calder
| Cardin
| Casson
| Chatters
|
Clark
| Cummins
| Davies
| Day
|
de Savoye
| Desjarlais
| Dockrill
| Doyle
|
Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duceppe
| Dumas
| Duncan
|
Earle
| Epp
| Forseth
| Gagnon
|
Gauthier
| Gilmour
| Girard - Bujold
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
|
Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Goldring
| Gouk
| Grewal
|
Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Gruending
| Guimond
| Hardy
|
Hearn
| Herron
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
|
Hoeppner
| Johnston
| Keddy
(South Shore)
| Kenney
(Calgary Southeast)
|
Konrad
| Lebel
| Lill
| Loubier
|
Lowther
| Lunn
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Manning
|
Marceau
| Mark
| Mayfield
| McNally
|
Mercier
| Meredith
| Milliken
| Mills
(Red Deer)
|
Morrison
| Nunziata
| Nystrom
| Obhrai
|
Pankiw
| Penson
| Perron
| Proctor
|
Reynolds
| Riis
| Ritz
| Robinson
|
Sauvageau
| Schmidt
| Scott
(Skeena)
| St - Hilaire
|
Stinson
| Stoffer
| Strahl
| Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
|
Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Turp
| Vautour
| Vellacott
|
Venne
| Wasylycia - Leis
| Wayne
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
|
White
(North Vancouver)
| Williams – 102
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare the amendment carried.
The next question is on the motion as amended. Is it the
pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: On division.
The Speaker: I declare the motion, as amended, carried on
division.
(Motion, as amended, agreed to)
Mr. John Nunziata: Mr. Speaker, perhaps you can assist
me. As I understand it that was a private members' vote and it
would be inconsistent to have a division on a private members'
vote. Could you indicate whether a private members' vote could
be dealt with in such a fashion?
The Speaker: The vote was in order.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
SUPPLY
ALLOTTED DAY—FUEL TAXES
The House resumed from September 21 consideration of the motion
and the amendment.
The Speaker: Pursuant to order made Wednesday, September 20
the House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred
recorded division on the amendment relating to the business of
supply. The vote is on the amendment. All those in favour of the
amendment will please rise. Is it defeated on division?
Some hon. members: No.
1855
The Speaker: Order, please. I address myself to the government
whip. Are you making a motion that this motion be negatived by
the House without a vote? Is that correct?
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, I believe if you were to
seek the consent of the House, you would receive consent to have
this matter negatived on division.
The Speaker: Does the government whip have the consent of
the House to put the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
1905
(The House divided on the amendment, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Anders
| Asselin
|
Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
| Bergeron
|
Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Blaikie
| Borotsik
|
Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brien
| Cadman
| Cardin
|
Casson
| Chatters
| Clark
| Crête
|
Cummins
| Dalphond - Guiral
| Day
| de Savoye
|
Debien
| Desjarlais
| Dockrill
| Doyle
|
Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duceppe
| Dumas
|
Duncan
| Earle
| Epp
| Forseth
|
Gagnon
| Gauthier
| Gilmour
| Girard - Bujold
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Goldring
| Gouk
|
Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Gruending
| Guimond
|
Hardy
| Harvey
| Hearn
| Herron
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hoeppner
| Johnston
|
Keddy
(South Shore)
| Kenney
(Calgary Southeast)
| Konrad
| Laurin
|
Lebel
| Lefebvre
| Lill
| Loubier
|
Lowther
| Lunn
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Manning
|
Marceau
| Marchand
| Mark
| Mayfield
|
McNally
| Mercier
| Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
|
Morrison
| Nunziata
| Nystrom
| Obhrai
|
Pankiw
| Penson
| Perron
| Proctor
|
Reynolds
| Riis
| Ritz
| Rocheleau
|
Sauvageau
| Schmidt
| Scott
(Skeena)
| St - Hilaire
|
Stinson
| Stoffer
| Strahl
| Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
|
Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Turp
| Vautour
| Vellacott
|
Venne
| Wasylycia - Leis
| Wayne
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
|
White
(North Vancouver)
| Williams – 106
|
NAYS
Members
Alcock
| Anderson
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Baker
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
|
Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
|
Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
|
Chrétien
(Saint - Maurice)
| Clouthier
| Coderre
| Comuzzi
|
Cotler
| Cullen
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Finlay
| Folco
| Fontana
|
Fry
| Gagliano
| Godfrey
| Goodale
|
Graham
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Harb
|
Harvard
| Hubbard
| Ianno
| Iftody
|
Jackson
| Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Leung
| Limoges
| Lincoln
|
Longfield
| MacAulay
| Mahoney
| Malhi
|
Maloney
| Manley
| Marleau
| Matthews
|
McCormick
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mifflin
| Milliken
|
Mitchell
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Normand
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
|
Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Pratt
| Price
|
Proud
| Proulx
| Redman
| Reed
|
Richardson
| Robillard
| Rock
| Saada
|
Scott
(Fredericton)
| Sekora
| Sgro
| Shepherd
|
St. Denis
| St - Jacques
| Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
|
Torsney
| Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
|
Volpe
| Wappel
| Whelan
| Wilfert
|
Wood – 141
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare the amendment lost.
The next question is on the main motion. Is it the pleasure of
the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Speaker: All those in favour of the motion will
please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Speaker: In my opinion the nays have it.
And more than five members having risen:
1915
(The House divided on the motion, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Anders
| Asselin
|
Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
| Bergeron
|
Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Blaikie
| Borotsik
|
Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brien
| Cadman
| Cardin
|
Casson
| Chatters
| Clark
| Crête
|
Cummins
| Dalphond - Guiral
| Day
| de Savoye
|
Debien
| Desjarlais
| Dockrill
| Doyle
|
Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duceppe
| Dumas
|
Duncan
| Earle
| Epp
| Forseth
|
Gagnon
| Gauthier
| Gilmour
| Girard - Bujold
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Goldring
| Gouk
|
Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Gruending
| Guimond
|
Hardy
| Harvey
| Hearn
| Herron
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hoeppner
| Johnston
|
Keddy
(South Shore)
| Kenney
(Calgary Southeast)
| Konrad
| Laurin
|
Lebel
| Lefebvre
| Lill
| Loubier
|
Lowther
| Lunn
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Manning
|
Marceau
| Marchand
| Mark
| Mayfield
|
McNally
| Mercier
| Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
|
Morrison
| Nunziata
| Nystrom
| Obhrai
|
Pankiw
| Penson
| Perron
| Proctor
|
Reynolds
| Riis
| Ritz
| Rocheleau
|
Sauvageau
| Schmidt
| Scott
(Skeena)
| St - Hilaire
|
Stinson
| Stoffer
| Strahl
| Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
|
Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Turp
| Vautour
| Vellacott
|
Venne
| Wasylycia - Leis
| Wayne
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
|
White
(North Vancouver)
| Williams – 106
|
NAYS
Members
Alcock
| Anderson
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Baker
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
|
Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
|
Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
|
Chrétien
(Saint - Maurice)
| Clouthier
| Coderre
| Comuzzi
|
Cotler
| Cullen
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Finlay
| Folco
| Fontana
|
Fry
| Gagliano
| Godfrey
| Goodale
|
Graham
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Harb
|
Harvard
| Hubbard
| Ianno
| Iftody
|
Jackson
| Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Karygiannis
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Leung
| Limoges
| Lincoln
|
Longfield
| MacAulay
| Mahoney
| Malhi
|
Maloney
| Manley
| Marleau
| Matthews
|
McCormick
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mifflin
| Milliken
|
Mitchell
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Normand
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
|
Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
|
Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
|
Pillitteri
| Pratt
| Price
| Proud
|
Proulx
| Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
|
Robillard
| Rock
| Saada
| Scott
(Fredericton)
|
Sekora
| Sgro
| Shepherd
| St. Denis
|
St - Jacques
| Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
|
Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
|
Wappel
| Whelan
| Wilfert
| Wood – 140
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare the motion lost.
* * *
FINANCIAL CONSUMER AGENCY OF CANADA ACT
The House resumed from September 20 consideration of the motion
that Bill C-38, an act to establish the Financial Consumer Agency
of Canada and to amend certain acts in relation to financial
institutions, be read the second time and referred to a
committee.
The Speaker: Pursuant to order made on Friday, September
22, the House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred
recorded division on the motion at second reading stage of Bill
C-38.
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, if the House would agree I
would propose that you seek unanimous consent that members who
voted on the previous motion, keeping in mind of course that the
Right Hon. member for Saint-Maurice had to leave the Chamber, be
recorded as having voted on the motion now before the House with
Liberal members voting yea.
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. John Reynolds: Mr. Speaker, Canadian Alliance members
present vote yes.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, the members of the Bloc
Quebecois are opposed to this motion.
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, the members of the New Democratic
Party are opposed to this motion with the exception of the
member for Churchill River, who is not present at this time.
[English]
Mr. Norman Doyle: Mr. Speaker, members of the Progressive
Conservative Party will be voting yes to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Guy St-Julien: Mr. Speaker, I abstained from voting on the
two previous motions today. I vote yes on this bill.
[English]
Mr. Lawrence D. O'Brien: Mr. Speaker, I want to be
recorded as having voted yes to this motion. I was not in the
House for the previous motion.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, I am voting in favour of this
motion.
1920
[English]
Mr. John Nunziata: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the
residents of York South—Weston, I would vote yes to this motion.
Mr. Jake E. Hoeppner: Mr. Speaker, the constituents of
Portage—Lisgar vote yes.
[Translation]
Mr. Réjean Lefebvre: Mr. Speaker, I vote yes on this motion.
[English]
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Alcock
| Anders
|
Anderson
| Assad
| Assadourian
| Augustine
|
Baker
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
|
Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
|
Benoit
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
|
Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
|
Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brown
|
Bryden
| Bulte
| Cadman
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Casson
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Charbonneau
| Chatters
| Clark
| Clouthier
|
Coderre
| Comuzzi
| Cotler
| Cullen
|
Cummins
| Day
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
|
Doyle
| Dromisky
| Drouin
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
|
Duhamel
| Duncan
| Easter
| Eggleton
|
Epp
| Finlay
| Folco
| Fontana
|
Forseth
| Fry
| Gagliano
| Gilmour
|
Godfrey
| Goldring
| Goodale
| Gouk
|
Graham
| Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Grose
|
Guarnieri
| Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
|
Hearn
| Herron
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
|
Hoeppner
| Hubbard
| Ianno
| Iftody
|
Jackson
| Jennings
| Johnston
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keddy
(South Shore)
| Kenney
(Calgary Southeast)
|
Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
|
Konrad
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Lefebvre
| Leung
| Limoges
|
Lincoln
| Longfield
| Lowther
| Lunn
|
MacAulay
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
| Malhi
|
Maloney
| Manley
| Manning
| Mark
|
Marleau
| Matthews
| Mayfield
| McCormick
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McNally
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Meredith
| Mifflin
|
Milliken
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Mitchell
| Morrison
|
Murray
| Myers
| Nault
| Normand
|
Nunziata
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
|
Obhrai
| Pagtakhan
| Pankiw
| Paradis
|
Parrish
| Patry
| Penson
| Peric
|
Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
|
Pillitteri
| Pratt
| Price
| Proud
|
Proulx
| Redman
| Reed
| Reynolds
|
Richardson
| Ritz
| Robillard
| Rock
|
Saada
| Schmidt
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Scott
(Skeena)
|
Sekora
| Sgro
| Shepherd
| St. Denis
|
St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Stinson
| Strahl
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
|
Torsney
| Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
|
Vautour
| Vellacott
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Wayne
| Whelan
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
|
Wilfert
| Williams
| Wood – 203
|
NAYS
Members
Asselin
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
|
Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Blaikie
| Brien
| Cardin
|
Crête
| Dalphond - Guiral
| de Savoye
| Debien
|
Dockrill
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
| Dumas
|
Earle
| Gagnon
| Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
|
Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Gruending
| Guimond
|
Hardy
| Laurin
| Lebel
| Lill
|
Loubier
| Marceau
| Marchand
| Mercier
|
Nystrom
| Perron
| Proctor
| Riis
|
Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
| St - Hilaire
| Stoffer
|
Turp
| Venne
| Wasylycia - Leis – 43
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare the motion carried. Accordingly,
the bill stands referred to the Standing Committee on Finance.
(Bill read the second time and referred to a committee)
* * *
MANITOBA CLAIM SETTLEMENTS IMPLEMENTATION ACT
The House resumed consideration of Bill C-14, an act respecting
an agreement with the Norway House Cree Nation for the settlement
of matters arising from the flooding of land, and respecting the
establishment of certain reserves in the province of Manitoba, as
reported (without amendment) from the committee.
The Speaker: The House will now proceed to the taking of
the deferred recorded division on the report stage of Bill C-14.
The question is on Motion No. 1. A vote on this motion also
applies to Motion No. 2.
[Translation]
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, I think you would find unanimous
consent for the members who voted on the previous motion to be
recorded as having voted on the motion now before the House,
with Liberals voting nay.
[English]
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. John Reynolds: Mr. Speaker, Canadian Alliance members
vote yes.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, the members of the Bloc
Quebecois are in favour of this motion, of course.
[English]
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, the NDP members present are
voting yes to this motion and I would like to add the member for
Churchill.
Mr. Norman Doyle: Mr. Speaker, the Progressive
Conservative members vote no to this motion.
Mr. John Nunziata: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the
residents of York South—Weston, I vote yes to the motion.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, I vote nay on this motion.
[English]
Mr. Jake E. Hoeppner: Mr. Speaker, Portage—Lisgar votes
yes.
[Translation]
Mr. Réjean Lefebvre: Mr. Speaker, I will be voting in favour of
this motion.
[English]
(The House divided on Motion No. 1, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Anders
| Asselin
|
Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
| Bergeron
|
Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Blaikie
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brien
|
Cadman
| Cardin
| Casson
| Chatters
|
Crête
| Cummins
| Dalphond - Guiral
| Day
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Desjarlais
| Dockrill
|
Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
| Dumas
| Duncan
|
Earle
| Epp
| Forseth
| Gagnon
|
Gauthier
| Gilmour
| Girard - Bujold
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
|
Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Goldring
| Gouk
| Grewal
|
Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Gruending
| Guimond
| Hardy
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hoeppner
| Johnston
|
Kenney
(Calgary Southeast)
| Konrad
| Laurin
| Lebel
|
Lefebvre
| Lill
| Loubier
| Lowther
|
Lunn
| Manning
| Marceau
| Marchand
|
Mark
| Mayfield
| McNally
| Mercier
|
Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
| Nunziata
|
Nystrom
| Obhrai
| Pankiw
| Penson
|
Perron
| Proctor
| Reynolds
| Riis
|
Ritz
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
| Schmidt
|
Scott
(Skeena)
| St - Hilaire
| Stinson
| Stoffer
|
Strahl
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Turp
| Vellacott
|
Venne
| Wasylycia - Leis
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
|
Williams – 93
|
NAYS
Members
Alcock
| Anderson
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Baker
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
|
Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
|
Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
|
Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
|
Carroll
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Clark
| Clouthier
|
Coderre
| Comuzzi
| Cotler
| Cullen
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Doyle
| Dromisky
|
Drouin
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duhamel
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Finlay
| Folco
| Fontana
|
Fry
| Gagliano
| Godfrey
| Goodale
|
Graham
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Harb
|
Harvard
| Harvey
| Hearn
| Herron
|
Hubbard
| Ianno
| Iftody
| Jackson
|
Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
|
Keddy
(South Shore)
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Leung
| Limoges
| Lincoln
|
Longfield
| MacAulay
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
| Marleau
|
Matthews
| McCormick
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
|
McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mifflin
|
Milliken
| Mitchell
| Murray
| Myers
|
Nault
| Normand
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
|
O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
|
Patry
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Pratt
|
Price
| Proud
| Proulx
| Redman
|
Reed
| Richardson
| Robillard
| Rock
|
Saada
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Sekora
| Sgro
|
Shepherd
| St. Denis
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
|
Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
| Torsney
|
Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
| Vautour
|
Volpe
| Wappel
| Wayne
| Whelan
|
Wilfert
| Wood – 154
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare Motion No. 1 lost. I therefore
declare Motion No. 2 lost.
The next question is on Motion No. 3.
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, if the House would agree I
would propose that you seek unanimous consent to apply the
results of the vote on Motion No. 1 to the motion now before the
House.
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(The House divided on Motion No. 3, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Anders
| Asselin
|
Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
| Bergeron
|
Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Blaikie
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brien
|
Cadman
| Cardin
| Casson
| Chatters
|
Crête
| Cummins
| Dalphond - Guiral
| Day
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Desjarlais
| Dockrill
|
Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
| Dumas
| Duncan
|
Earle
| Epp
| Forseth
| Gagnon
|
Gauthier
| Gilmour
| Girard - Bujold
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
|
Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Goldring
| Gouk
| Grewal
|
Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Gruending
| Guimond
| Hardy
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hoeppner
| Johnston
|
Kenney
(Calgary Southeast)
| Konrad
| Laurin
| Lebel
|
Lefebvre
| Lill
| Loubier
| Lowther
|
Lunn
| Manning
| Marceau
| Marchand
|
Mark
| Mayfield
| McNally
| Mercier
|
Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
| Nunziata
|
Nystrom
| Obhrai
| Pankiw
| Penson
|
Perron
| Proctor
| Reynolds
| Riis
|
Ritz
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
| Schmidt
|
Scott
(Skeena)
| St - Hilaire
| Stinson
| Stoffer
|
Strahl
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Turp
| Vellacott
|
Venne
| Wasylycia - Leis
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
|
Williams – 93
|
NAYS
Members
Alcock
| Anderson
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Baker
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
|
Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
|
Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
|
Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
|
Carroll
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Clark
| Clouthier
|
Coderre
| Comuzzi
| Cotler
| Cullen
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Doyle
| Dromisky
|
Drouin
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duhamel
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Finlay
| Folco
| Fontana
|
Fry
| Gagliano
| Godfrey
| Goodale
|
Graham
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Harb
|
Harvard
| Harvey
| Hearn
| Herron
|
Hubbard
| Ianno
| Iftody
| Jackson
|
Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
|
Keddy
(South Shore)
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Leung
| Limoges
| Lincoln
|
Longfield
| MacAulay
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
| Marleau
|
Matthews
| McCormick
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
|
McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mifflin
|
Milliken
| Mitchell
| Murray
| Myers
|
Nault
| Normand
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
|
O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
|
Patry
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
| Pratt
|
Price
| Proud
| Proulx
| Redman
|
Reed
| Richardson
| Robillard
| Rock
|
Saada
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Sekora
| Sgro
|
Shepherd
| St. Denis
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
|
Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
| Torsney
|
Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
| Vautour
|
Volpe
| Wappel
| Wayne
| Whelan
|
Wilfert
| Wood – 154
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare Motion No. 3 lost.
1925
Hon. Robert D. Nault (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.) moved that the bill, as amended, be
concurred in.
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, if the House would agree, I
would propose that you seek unanimous consent that members who
voted on the previous motion be recorded as having voted on the
motion now before the House, with Liberal members voting yea.
The Speaker: Is there agreement to proceed in such a
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. John Reynolds: Mr. Speaker, Canadian Alliance members
present vote yes and I would mention that the hon. member for
Skeena has left.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, Bloc Quebecois members will
be voting against the motion.
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, NDP members will be voting in
favour of the motion.
[English]
Mr. Norman Doyle: Mr. Speaker, the Progressive
Conservative members vote yes to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, I will be voting in favour of the
motion.
[English]
Mr. John Nunziata: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my
constituents I would vote yes.
Mr. Jake E. Hoeppner: Mr. Speaker, the constituents of
Portage—Lisgar vote yes.
[Translation]
Mr. Réjean Lefebvre: Mr. Speaker, I will be voting against the
motion.
[English]
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Alcock
| Anders
|
Anderson
| Assad
| Assadourian
| Augustine
|
Baker
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
|
Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
|
Benoit
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
|
Blaikie
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
|
Borotsik
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
|
Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
| Cadman
|
Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
|
Casson
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Chatters
| Clark
|
Clouthier
| Coderre
| Comuzzi
| Cotler
|
Cullen
| Cummins
| Day
| Desjarlais
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dockrill
| Doyle
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duhamel
|
Duncan
| Earle
| Easter
| Eggleton
|
Epp
| Finlay
| Folco
| Fontana
|
Forseth
| Fry
| Gagliano
| Gilmour
|
Godfrey
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
| Goldring
| Goodale
|
Gouk
| Graham
| Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
|
Grose
| Gruending
| Guarnieri
| Harb
|
Hardy
| Harvard
| Hearn
| Herron
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hoeppner
| Hubbard
|
Ianno
| Iftody
| Jackson
| Jennings
|
Johnston
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
|
Keddy
(South Shore)
| Kenney
(Calgary Southeast)
| Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
|
Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Konrad
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lee
| Lefebvre
|
Leung
| Lill
| Limoges
| Lincoln
|
Longfield
| Lowther
| Lunn
| MacAulay
|
MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Manley
| Manning
| Mark
| Marleau
|
Matthews
| Mayfield
| McCormick
| McGuire
|
McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McNally
| McTeague
|
McWhinney
| Meredith
| Mifflin
| Milliken
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Mitchell
| Morrison
| Murray
|
Myers
| Nault
| Normand
| Nunziata
|
Nystrom
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
|
Obhrai
| Pagtakhan
| Pankiw
| Paradis
|
Parrish
| Patry
| Penson
| Peric
|
Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
|
Pillitteri
| Pratt
| Price
| Proctor
|
Proud
| Proulx
| Redman
| Reed
|
Reynolds
| Richardson
| Riis
| Ritz
|
Robillard
| Rock
| Saada
| Schmidt
|
Scott
(Fredericton)
| Sekora
| Sgro
| Shepherd
|
St. Denis
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Steckle
|
Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Stinson
| Stoffer
|
Strahl
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
|
Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Vautour
| Vellacott
|
Volpe
| Wappel
| Wasylycia - Leis
| Wayne
|
Whelan
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
| Wilfert
|
Williams
| Wood – 214
|
NAYS
Members
Asselin
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
|
Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Brien
| Cardin
| Crête
|
Dalphond - Guiral
| de Savoye
| Debien
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
|
Duceppe
| Dumas
| Gagnon
| Gauthier
|
Girard - Bujold
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Guimond
| Harvey
|
Laurin
| Lebel
| Loubier
| Marceau
|
Marchand
| Mercier
| Perron
| Rocheleau
|
Sauvageau
| St - Hilaire
| Turp
| Venne – 32
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
[English]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to
have been moved.
CHST
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Madam
Speaker, a number of weeks ago, in fact in June before we
recessed for the summer, I asked a question of the Minister of
Finance regarding the CHST, the Canadian health and social
transfer, the moneys going to the provinces mainly for education
and health care among other things. It is the moneys that come
from the federal government in support of health care
provincially.
Obviously we are not satisfied with the arrangements.
In response to the minister's reply, there is no question that
there is an election coming. We are having a bit of fun on the
other benches, I can see, but the federal government has just
announced that about $4 billion is going to the CHST. I remind
the Canadian public that this will bring us back to the same
levels of spending that we had in 1994. We will almost 10 years
behind the eight ball. Of course, that money will not kick in
for another 18 months.
1930
It is money that the provinces and the federal government agreed
to, but basically the provinces did it with no guarantees at all
coming from the federal government in terms of national
standards. The provinces simply bought in with the money, with
no guarantees for national standards in the future.
The government is taking a lot of credit for having done this,
for putting money back into health care. However, the House will
remember that the government created this problem. The
government has not fixed it. It has no plan for the future.
Basically the government makes it up, fixes it up and rolls along
without any consideration for what it will do down the road.
Canadians are not satisfied with that approach of stumble along
and make it up as we go along. It is an approach that the
government has taken for the last seven years and I think the
Canadian public is getting wise to it.
Why I say this is that with this injection of money basically on
the eve of an election, we can see how quickly the provinces came
to an agreement with the federal government. Knowing full well
that an election is coming, the government wanted it off the
table. Basically the Prime Minister said “Here is the cash.
Take it and run. Get out of my way. Incidentally, there is an
election coming, so just get out of my hair. Here is the money.
Take the cash and run”.
That is not a plan. That is just political opportunism for the
wrong reasons. Basically the Liberals are hoping for a deathbed
reprieve, which the government got in 1997. The House will
remember that on the eve of the 1997 election the Liberals threw
in a billion dollars to appease the provinces and in the middle
of a campaign came up with a promise for pharmacare, a
pharmaceutical program and a home care program, a promise that
they had no intention of keeping.
It was simply to appease the people, to get them on side, and it
was “By the way, an election is coming”. They have not
honoured those promises. They have no plans for the future nor
do they have a plan going into this election other than “Here is
the cash. Take it and run”.
There is an old expression “Fool me once, shame on you; fool me
twice, shame on me”. The Canadian public will not fall for this
trick, the same trick that the Liberals used in the 1997
election. They fooled us twice. They are not going to do it—
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The Parliamentary
Secretary to the Minister of Finance.
Mr. Roy Cullen (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): Madam Speaker, the member for New Brunswick
Southwest seems to have the numbers mixed up. In fact, the Prime
Minister recently concluded an agreement with the provinces and
territories which will invest $23.5 billion in the health care
system through the Canada health and social transfer. That is in
addition to the $14 billion that was put into the CHST in the two
previous budgets. That is a total of $37.5 billion, which is
significantly more than the figure of $4.5 billion the member
quoted.
The reason for the original question from the member to the
minister had to do with the CHST as a block fund. I would like
to say that the CHST gives provinces greater flexibility to
allocate resources according to their own priorities. As a block
fund, the CHST also allows provinces to design programs and
reflect their unique circumstances and needs. Maintaining
artificial boundaries between social programs is not good social
policy. Health, education and social assistance are all
interrelated. Furthermore, these programs fall under provincial
jurisdiction. Provinces know how to best tailor programs to meet
the needs of their own residents.
1935
Having said this, I should note that maintaining the CHST as a
block fund does not preclude agreements on targeted investments.
Indeed, at the last first ministers meeting, as I just pointed
out, first ministers agreed that of the additional $21 billion
invested in the CHST over five years, $2.2 billion would be
earmarked for early childhood development. In 1999 all premiers
made a commitment to spend the $11.5 billion in new CHST cash
provided in that year's budget on health care.
In conclusion, the agreement reached at the first ministers
meeting and the 1999 budget clearly demonstrate that the CHST is
an effective instrument for achieving national policy objectives
while at the same time providing provinces and territories with
the flexibility required in a mature federation.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The motion to adjourn the
House is now deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly, this
House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 2 p.m., pursuant to
Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 7.36 p.m.)