36th Parliament, 2nd Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 60
CONTENTS
Wednesday, March 1, 2000
1400
| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| LEARNING DISABILITIES
|
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
| DIANA KRALL
|
| Mr. Reed Elley |
| STRAUSS COMMUNICATIONS
|
| Mr. Reg Alcock |
| 2008 SUMMER OLYMPIC AND PARALYMPIC GAMES
|
| Ms. Carolyn Bennett |
| EDUCATIONAL LEVEL
|
| Ms. Raymonde Folco |
| AIRLINE INDUSTRY
|
| Mr. Jim Hart |
1405
| THE BUDGET
|
| Mr. Claude Drouin |
| THE BUDGET
|
| Mr. Odina Desrochers |
| THE BUDGET
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| CORRECTIONAL SERVICE CANADA
|
| Mr. Myron Thompson |
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| THE BUDGET
|
| Ms. Beth Phinney |
| HEALTH CARE
|
| Mr. Peter Mancini |
| SOCIAL HOUSING
|
| Mrs. Pauline Picard |
| INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY
|
| Ms. Sarmite Bulte |
| TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY
|
| Mr. Bill Casey |
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
1415
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
1420
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Bernard Bigras |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Bernard Bigras |
1425
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| HEALTH CARE
|
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
1430
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
1435
| Mr. Paul Crête |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Paul Crête |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
1440
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
| Hon. Maria Minna |
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| Mr. Grant McNally |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
1445
| Mr. Grant McNally |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| MINISTER FOR INTERNATIONAL TRADE
|
| Mr. Richard Marceau |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| INFRASTRUCTURE PROGRAM
|
| Mr. John Finlay |
| Hon. Lucienne Robillard |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Eric Lowther |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
1450
| Mr. Eric Lowther |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| HEALTH
|
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| THE BUDGET
|
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Jean Dubé |
1455
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Jean Dubé |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| THE ENVIRONMENT
|
| Hon. Charles Caccia |
| Hon. David Anderson |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Stéphan Tremblay |
1500
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| HEALTH CARE
|
| Mr. Nelson Riis |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. John Herron |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
1505
| PRIVILEGE
|
| Amendments to Bill C-20
|
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
1510
| Hon. Don Boudria |
1515
1520
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
| Mr. Chuck Strahl |
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
1525
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
| GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| INTERPARLIAMENTARY DELEGATIONS
|
| Mr. Bryon Wilfert |
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Procedure and House Affairs
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| CANADA NATIONAL PARKS ACT
|
| Bill C-27. Introduction and first reading
|
| Hon. Sheila Copps |
1530
| ACCESS TO INFORMATION ACT
|
| Bill C-448. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
| ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES READJUSTMENT ACT
|
| Bill C-449. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Peter Goldring |
| PETITIONS
|
| Child Poverty
|
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
| Child Pornography
|
| Mr. Reed Elley |
| Naturopathic Practitioners
|
| Mr. Reed Elley |
1535
| Immigration
|
| Mr. Dennis Gruending |
| Genetically Modified Food Labelling
|
| Mr. René Laurin |
| Child Poverty
|
| Mr. Bill Casey |
| Equality
|
| Mr. Peter Goldring |
| Child Pornography
|
| Ms. Wendy Lill |
| Genetically Modified Food Labelling
|
| Mr. Yvan Bernier |
| Child Pornography
|
| Mr. Ken Epp |
1540
| Armed Forces
|
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
| Child Pornography
|
| Mr. Myron Thompson |
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| MOTION FOR PAPERS
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
1545
| THE BUDGET
|
| Financial Statement of Minister of Finance
|
| Budget motion
|
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
1550
1555
| Mr. Myron Thompson |
1600
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
1605
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
1610
1615
1620
| Mr. Roy Cullen |
1625
| Mr. John McKay |
1630
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
1635
| Mr. John McKay |
1640
| Mr. Reed Elley |
1645
| Mr. Gary Pillitteri |
1650
1655
1700
| Mr. Yvan Loubier |
| Mr. Myron Thompson |
1705
| Mr. Réal Ménard |
1710
1715
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
1720
| Mr. Odina Desrochers |
1725
1730
| Mr. Roy Cullen |
1735
| Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
| Mrs. Karen Redman |
1740
1745
| Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
| Mrs. Michelle Dockrill |
1750
| Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain |
1755
1800
| Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
1805
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
1810
1815
1845
(Division 755)
| Amendment to the amendment negatived
|
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 60
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Wednesday, March 1, 2000
The House met at 2 p.m.
Prayers
1400
The Speaker: As is our practice on Wednesday we will now
sing O Canada.
[Editor's Note: Members sang the national anthem]
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
LEARNING DISABILITIES
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
this month the Learning Disabilities Association of Canada and
several other volunteer organizations from coast to coast are
hosting a variety of activities and events to raise public
awareness about learning disabilities.
Approximately three million Canadians of all ages—children,
youth and adults—are challenged with learning disabilities. My
20 year career as a teacher taught me that learning disabilities
are not limited or confined to classrooms. Learning disabilities
affect all aspects of human and social functioning.
Students with learning disabilities are twice as likely to drop
out of high school than their non-disabled peers. Studies have
also shown links between learning disabilities and the rates of
adolescent suicide, young offenders, adult inmates and teenage
mothers.
As we move into the new millennium it is vital that all
Canadians obtain appropriate learning skills and we thank all
those involved in this very worthwhile endeavour.
* * *
DIANA KRALL
Mr. Reed Elley (Nanaimo—Cowichan, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it
gives me great pleasure to rise today to offer congratulations to
one of Canada's stars, my favourite jazz musician, Diana Krall.
Diana, a native of Nanaimo, B.C., was recently nominated for
three Grammys, including album of the year. On February 23 Diana
won her first Grammy for best jazz vocal performance for her
album When I Look in Your Eyes. This is an amazing
achievement and a welcome acknowledgement of her talent.
Just listen to how the critics sing her praises: “A rapidly
emerging jazz artist”. “She swings, she flirts, she makes you
want to cry”.
Diana has the first ever certified platinum jazz album in Canada
and six albums to date. She has made the often hard journey to
jazz stardom and yet combines the inspiration of a child with the
voice of experience.
Growing up in Nanaimo she was influenced by her father and
family's love for music. Her music has taken her around the
world but she has not forgotten her Nanaimo roots.
I congratulate Diana. We are all very proud of her.
* * *
STRAUSS COMMUNICATIONS
Mr. Reg Alcock (Winnipeg South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise in the House today to congratulate a fine young company from
Winnipeg which has been nominated to receive the Canadian Event
Industry Award for best conference.
Strauss Communications has been nominated for this award for its
efforts in organizing the Manitoba “Place to be, Place to Stay”
conference.
The conference brought together over 350 students and 59
guidance counsellors to hear from 48 senior business leaders of
Manitoba based companies. The idea was that Manitoba business
leaders could best provide today's students with valuable
information regarding the tremendous opportunities that exist
within Manitoba, and that the future is there.
I stand to offer my congratulations to the entire team at
Strauss Communications and to remind hon. members that Manitoba
is the place to be.
* * *
2008 SUMMER OLYMPIC AND PARALYMPIC GAMES
Ms. Carolyn Bennett (St. Paul's, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it
is my honour to rise today to congratulate the federal government
for its decision to support Toronto's bid to host the 2008 Summer
Olympic and Paralympic Games.
These games are an occasion where athletes come together in the
spirit of sportsmanship to compete for the title of the world's
best. The Olympic Games would give Toronto the opportunity to
host a celebration of world sport and culture in 2008 and create
a legacy for our future.
The 10,000 athletes, 5,000 coaches and staff, 50,000 volunteers
and an additional 50,000 sponsors and guests create a force for
Toronto's bid which is undeniable.
With the strength of our team, the success of this bid would
showcase our leading edge expertise, technology, creativity and
innovation on the world stage. This would foster the excellence
of Canadian talent and integrate our heritage and cultural
achievements into all aspects of the vision of the games.
The engagement of Toronto's communities, neighbourhoods and
residents would allow us to celebrate our athletes, city and
country with the world. It is time to share Canada's best kept
secret, the city of Toronto, with the rest of the world.
* * *
[Translation]
EDUCATIONAL LEVEL
Ms. Raymonde Folco (Laval West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on February
22, a report by the Council of Ministers of Education, Canada
revealed that the educational level in Canada, which already
enjoys a very decent standing among the member countries of the
Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, the OECD,
has risen considerably over the last decade.
In 1990, 43% of Canadians between the ages of 25 and 54 had
completed post-secondary education, while in 1998 this figure had
risen to 54%.
The percentage of Canadians who had completed post-secondary
education in 1996 was 48%, while the average in member countries
was 23%.
The Canadian government is involved in the development and
training of our youth. Whether through training or placement
programs, we are aware of the importance of focusing energies
and resources on equipping Canada for the challenges of the 2000s.
* * *
[English]
AIRLINE INDUSTRY
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan—Coquihalla, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise on behalf of the people of Okanagan—Coquihalla who are
concerned that the federal Liberal government is not protecting
consumers in light of the impending changes to the airline
industry.
1405
The merger of Air Canada and Canadian has resulted in
significant reductions in service to the Penticton Regional
Airport. Today Canadian Regional has given notice that it
intends to eliminate Dash 8 service. That means more than 100
seats a day will no longer be available.
The Penticton Regional Airport is vital to the economy of the
whole South Okanagan. It provides a direct link to our busy
convention centre, agri-tourism industry and expanding high
technology sector. When Dash 8 service is eliminated there will
not even be enough seats servicing the region to meet current
demand.
Air Canada made a commitment to the federal government that it
would maintain air service to small communities for a minimum of
three years. The people of the South Okanagan expect the
Minister of Transport to enforce this commitment. The economy of
the South Okanagan depends on it.
* * *
[Translation]
THE BUDGET
Mr. Claude Drouin (Beauce, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the federal
budget is spectacular; that is not too strong a word to describe
the tax cuts.
Our government is re-indexing personal income tax—a considerable
departure from the policies and decisions of the previous
Conservative government. This measure will protect Canadian
taxpayers against inflation as far as taxation is concerned.
To give some examples of the impact of the tax measures
contained in this latest budget, a typical four person family
with one wage earner and a total income of $35,000 will not pay
any net federal tax, while a typical four person family with an
income of $40,000 will pay at least $1,623 less net federal tax,
or 48% less.
The cuts made in our last three budgets, coupled with those in
the five year plan, will bring down income tax for all Canadians
by at least 22% by the year 2004. Families with children will
benefit even more.
These are measures that will benefit Canadian families.
* * *
THE BUDGET
Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in his
budget, the Minister of Finance finally announced reductions in
income tax.
What reductions? This year? No, next year. Such election
opportunism. However, the federal government had all the
manoeuvring room it needed to introduce it this year.
What about the unemployed? Nothing, no change.
Will it be this year for regional development or the long
awaited municipal infrastructures program? No, not before 2001,
and with a budget of only $100 million. The rest will come
later.
But this government does not need coaxing to establish new
programs or new foundations, including in the area of the
environment.
It even dared to give the Minister of Human Resources
Development new responsibilities.
Whether in the case of this department or elsewhere, this
government is clearly leaving the door open to political
camouflage and patronage.
* * *
[English]
THE BUDGET
Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
budget continued federal support for higher education and
research. Two thousand research chairs and increased funding for
the CFI will help colleges and universities across Canada. The
tax break for student scholarship income was most welcome.
The sustainable development technology fund, the Foundation for
Climate Research and the green municipal investment fund will
help researchers and our environment.
Further support for the Canadian Institutes of Health Research
will focus research on health in the national interest.
I urge the government to follow through in its support of basic
research, especially social science research. I also urge
continued support for the NRC, a flagship of federal science and
an invigorated commitment to research in the north.
* * *
CORRECTIONAL SERVICE CANADA
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, this
week's lesson for the solicitor general focuses on a required
attitude adjustment of one of his departments, which seems to
have grown beyond his control. Once again Correctional Service
Canada has been criticized by one its friends, the Elizabeth Fry
Society, for being arrogant and unaccountable.
In its 1999 annual report it describes Correctional Service
Canada as—
—very insular, insecure yet self-righteously arrogant
governmental department, where prisoners or anyone who questions
CSC's actions are similarly relegated to the margins and
classified as unimportant and misinformed, regardless of the
seriousness and implications of the matters raised. All energies
seemed to be focused upon efforts to (confuse) the issues,
discredit any perceived detractors and continue on with business
as usual.
This analysis comes from an organization that works extensively
with CSC. These attitudes come straight from the very top. The
commissioner thinks he is untouchable. It is up to the solicitor
general to show this man who is the boss.
* * *
1410
THE BUDGET
Ms. Beth Phinney (Hamilton Mountain, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the tax reduction plan proposed in the budget delivers immediate
and growing tax relief for all Canadians. In five years taxes
will have been cut by at least $58 billion. Personal income
taxes will be reduced by an average of 15% annually.
Members of the other side have been silenced by this budget, so
let us hear what Canadians have to say, like Sherry Cooper,
Nesbitt Burns' chief economist:
Ken Battle of the Caledon Institute said:
They are right. This budget demonstrates our commitment to
restore the nation's finances and build a stronger, more
innovative economy.
* * *
HEALTH CARE
Mr. Peter Mancini (Sydney—Victoria, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
the NDP has not been silenced by this budget. In fact, Nova
Scotians, like all Canadians, are distressed that the Liberal
budget ignored their number one concern: health care.
People from every region of the country called on the government
to fix the health care system in this budget. Canadians from
coast to coast and all the premiers, including the only Liberal
one left, Brian Tobin, have condemned the budget for failing to
address health care.
For every dollar in tax cuts there are two cents for health care
transfers.
Nova Scotians will receive barely enough to cover the cost of
health care in the province for three days, and it will do
nothing to reduce waiting lists and lineups in emergency rooms.
Nova Scotians and Canadians can, however, rest assured that the
NDP will not give one inch in its fight to defend health care
from Liberal, Tory and Reform policies of downsizing and
privatization.
* * *
[Translation]
SOCIAL HOUSING
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in the latest
budget, the Minister of Finance is ignoring the basic right of
1.7 million Quebec and Canadian families to affordable housing.
These people are obliged to spend over 30% of their meagre
income on rent.
By refusing to invest in social housing, this government is
negating the major international agreements it is signatory to
such as the international covenant on economic, social and
cultural rights.
I add my voice to those of the hundreds of thousands of women,
men and children who must do without food every day in order to
pay for miserable housing. I want to make known my distress at
the Liberal government's refusal to consider the problems of
people with housing problems a national emergency.
A study by FRAPRU reveals that one woman in four spends 50% of
her income on housing, when she is the main income earner.
Worse yet, families in Shawinigan have the lowest income in
Quebec.
We have to assume that the Prime Minister is more interested in
making his political friends rich than in relieving human
suffering.
* * *
[English]
INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY
Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parkdale—High Park, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, next Wednesday, March 8, is International Women's Day.
The theme for this year's celebration is “Women Taking Action to
Make a Difference”.
To commemorate International Women's Day, on March 8 I will be
hosting a breakfast to acknowledge the accomplishments of women
in my riding. On this day I will be honouring and celebrating
six local women who have not only taken action, but who have
truly made a difference. My special guests will include
Anne-Marie Gardner, executive director of the Redwood Shelter;
Alexina Louie, composer in residence at the Canadian Opera
Company and winner of the Jules Leger Prize for music; Madeleine
McDowell, heritage advocate, educator, social and environmental
activist; Alicja Pietrus, president of the Toronto branch of the
Canadian Polish Congress; Piera Pugliese, owner of Vesuvio's
Pizzeria and Spaghetti House; and Anne Wright-Howard, producer of
CBC television's Undercurrents.
This is an occasion to reflect on the progress made to advance
women's equality. But more importantly, it is a day to celebrate
the lives of ordinary women as makers of history.
* * *
TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr. Speaker,
today Premier Bernard Lord of New Brunswick announced that tolls
are to be removed from the New Brunswick section of the
Trans-Canada Highway, just as he promised months ago. The
previous Liberal government created this toll highway and
established legislation forcing all trucks from Prince Edward
Island, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland through the tolls,
effectively transferring money from all the other provinces into
New Brunswick.
Although it is a New Brunswick toll highway, the tolls affected
all of the Atlantic provinces, and I would personally like to
compliment the member for St. John's East for his tireless
efforts to seek fair treatment for the citizens of Newfoundland
and its industries. As well, the member for
Beauséjour—Petitcodiac was very much involved with this lengthy
debate.
This now puts the focus on the only section of the Trans-Canada
Highway in Canada that has a toll charge left, and that is the
section through Nova Scotia. Again, a former Liberal government
established this toll highway and it is now left to others to
find a way to eliminate the last Trans-Canada toll highway.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
1415
[English]
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, for weeks now the Prime Minister has been saying that
there is nothing wrong with how the government handles grants and
contributions.
However, as of today there are two RCMP investigations and a
forensic audit under way in the Prime Minister's riding alone.
They are not there investigating parking violations. They are
investigating the misuse and misappropriation of public funds.
If the RCMP thinks there is a problem with grants and
contributions, why does the Minister of Human Resources
Development not?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member is referring to two or three matters out
of some 30,000 applications. We do not treat the matter lightly.
We want to see things looked into thoroughly. We want to see
action taken on any problems.
When the Leader of the Opposition gets up like this without a
word about the budget, not a question, not a criticism and not a
concern, what an endorsement and what a vote of confidence. He
may actually vote on our side on the budget speech. Thanks for
the endorsement of our wonderful budget.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the misspending of taxpayer dollars is precisely what
HRD did with our taxes.
These two or three little investigations are taking place in the
Prime Minister's riding.
I suppose we should not be surprised, given how many people
close to the Prime Minister are involved in manipulating the
grant handling process; people like Denise Tremblay and René
Fugère.
How many RCMP investigations does it take before the Prime
Minister takes some responsibility?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Prime Minister and all of us have taken
responsibility for identifying problems and moving promptly to
correct them.
The hon. member's misuse of the rules of the House to create
unwarranted insinuations and innuendoes is not only demeaning him
the parliamentary process, but above all, himself and his
declining Reform Party.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member has been here too long. He is concerned
about misuse of the rules of the House. People are concerned
about the misuse of taxpayer dollars.
Let us recap. We have René Fugère, a man who claimed to be
acting on behalf of the Prime Minister, under investigation for
illegal lobbying. We have CITEC under investigation for misusing
public funds. We have a forensic audit into a textile factory
that moved from Montreal to the Prime Minister's riding without
any business reason. The list goes on and on.
How can the Prime Minister continue to claim that he is only
doing his job as an MP when so much of what he touches attracts
the RCMP?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, at least one of these investigations is under way
because the Prime Minister's office asked the RCMP to look into
the matter. This shows that the Prime Minister and his staff are
doing their jobs in the appropriate way and that the Prime
Minister, his staff and all of us are concerned about the proper
use of taxpayer money.
The Reform Party leader, in trying to deflect attention from the
trouble he is having keeping his own job, keeping his party in
place and not being able to criticize the budget, is acting in a
desperate way.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
can see the Liberals' campaign slogan “Calling all cars: We
need help here”.
Last spring we asked the Prime Minister time after time about
the several questionable grants and contributions to his own
riding. Even though these grants involved individuals with
chequered pasts—we know they had personal business dealings with
the Prime Minister—he claimed he was only doing the work of a
good MP.
How is it that doing the work of good little MPs results in RCMP
investigations in their ridings?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is making reference to a
few projects that we are handling with the appropriate
authorities. There are thousands of projects that are making a
difference in the lives of Canadians.
What is absolutely clear by the questions being asked by that
party is that they do not believe that the Government of Canada
can support individuals.
They talk about briefs. What we know to be true is that this is
money that will help Canadians with disabilities, young people
and people who do not have a chance for a job. We on this side
of the House believe in those investments.
1420
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
she talks about a few projects. Pretty soon so much will come to
light that there will not be enough police in the country to do
the investigations.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. The hon. member for Edmonton
North.
Miss Deborah Grey: Let me quote from Hansard:
As long as he keeps silent on this issue, he gives every
Canadian...the impression that he himself, the Prime Minister, is
there to help his friends, the friends who helped him.
That was not someone from the official opposition. That was
this heritage minister back in the days when she believed that
prime ministers should be accountable.
How can the Prime Minister brag that this little six point plan
can fix everything—
The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Prime Minister.
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, this six point plan has been approved and endorsed by an
officer of the House, the auditor general, who is also carrying
out his own inquiry. Is the hon. member saying that the auditor
general is also wrong and does not know what he is talking about?
No wonder the hon. member in her previous question said that we
need help. Yes, the Reform Party needs lots of help. It is
going down the drain, as proven by the fact that it has not had
one question, one quarrel, one comment adverse to our great
budget. Thanks again for the endorsement.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Prime Minister says that no project was transferred to the
riding of Saint-Maurice, that the file remained in Montreal and
that no jobs were created in the riding.
If the Prime Minister's statement is accurate, if it is true
that no money was invested in the ridings of Saint-Maurice or
Rosemont, could the minister tell us where the money went?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is aware that we have an
outside forensic audit team looking at this particular file. We
will report to the House when we have information.
When we look at the province of Quebec and find that the
majority of grants and contributions are in Bloc ridings, we know
that there is no intention here to do anything except to support
the people of that province who need help.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, help
is needed in Rosemont but they send the project to Saint-Maurice.
This is some logic.
The deputy minister informed us that a lease had been signed
between Mr. Perreault and Mr. Goldberger in Saint-Élie-de-Caxton
because, supposedly, no facilities were available in Rosemont.
Based on the deputy minister's version, jobs would therefore
have been created in Saint-Maurice.
Under these conditions, how can the minister tell us that she
does not know where the money is?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am not going to comment further on the
details in this program until I have the information that will
allow me to do so.
I again remind the hon. member and his party that in every
transitional jobs fund and Canada jobs fund program the province
of Quebec, headquarters for the Bloc Quebecois, approved of the
project, including—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Rosemont.
[Translation]
Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the minister is
telling us she does not know that five jobs were created. This
is what she seems to be telling us. Yet, when she spoke to me
last Thursday, her deputy minister seemed perfectly aware of the
creation of these five jobs in Saint-Élie-de-Caxton.
Still, could the minister tell us if an amount of $165,984
normally helps create only five jobs?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, what is normal is that I will wait to
comment on the details of this program until I have the
appropriate information.
Let us be clear that the ridings represented by these members of
parliament have benefited tremendously by the help of the
Government of Canada and the people of Canada because we know
that there are opportunities for us to help them.
[Translation]
Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the minister
still refuses to answer our questions after all these days. Yet
the number of coincidences keeps going up.
1425
Maurice Perreault, who benefited from the creation of the five
jobs, praises the Prime Minister in his March 1997 leaflet. Mr.
Goldberger transferred the jobs from Rosemont to Saint-Maurice
and this situation is of concern to the deputy minister. It is
there in black and white.
Does the government, which knows everything that happens in
opposition ridings, know what is going on in the Prime
Minister's riding?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we will make information available on
this file as the right information becomes available.
What is really interesting is that in the week the budget has
been presented that party also chooses to ignore it. I gather
that it too—
The Speaker: Order, please. The hon. minister still has
time if she wishes to use it.
* * *
HEALTH CARE
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, this
budget does not get the job done in health care. Either these
Liberals are so out of touch that they do not know there is a
crisis in health care or they just refuse to take responsibility
to solve it. Whichever it is, it is just as good as handing a
licence to the Mike Harris' and the Ralph Kleins of this world to
shred medicare.
Why will this government not put health care first?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
it will take two things to resolve the problems in health care:
One is money and the other is ideas and hard work.
In terms of money, over the last two years we have increased the
cash transfers to the provinces for health by 25%. In terms of
ideas and hard work, I have an open invitation to ministers of
health to meet with me next week, if they can, to talk about
where we go from here, working together to resolve the issues in
medicare. That is federal leadership.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, if the
health minister wants to talk money then let us talk money. The
fact is that in this budget for every dollar in tax cuts two
cents goes to cash transfers to health care. That is the reality
and those are the facts.
My question is very straightforward. How bad does the health
care crisis have to get before the government takes any action to
solve it?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I am grateful for the member's two cents worth but the reality is
far different from what she suggests.
Public spending on health will be $60 billion next year; $20
billion of that will be financed by the Government of Canada.
One-third of public spending on health next year will be financed
by Ottawa. That has increased a lot over the last couple of
years.
In the future, as circumstances permit, we will do more but it
will take money and hard work. We are offering both. We want to
work with the provinces to make sure we keep medicare and make it
serve Canadians well.
* * *
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Prime Minister informed the House that
on February 2 he asked the RCMP to investigate the $2.5 million
HRDC grant to CITEC in his riding.
Based on his actions and answers, the Prime Minister obviously
knew that the RCMP were investigating this potentially illegal
grant on February 2.
How could he stand in the House on February 9 and tell Canadians
that only $251.50 of HRDC funds were unaccounted for? Where has
truth and accountability in government gone?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it is my understanding that the Prime Minister was
talking about the 37 cases out of the some 400 in the initial
audit that had been referred for further investigation. He gave
information based on his understanding of the results of the
audit up to that point.
1430
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
It must be selective memory, Mr. Speaker, because on February 9
the Prime Minister stated that only $251.50 was problematic. Yet
six months ago the RCMP began an investigation into PLI
Environmental and its $1.6 million grant and wage subsidies
package from HRDC.
How in good faith and good conscience could the Prime Minister
stand in the House and tell Canadians that only $251.50 was
questionable when six months previous he knew the RCMP were
already investigating a potential fraud of millions of dollars?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is mixing apples and
oranges.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. When a question is asked,
surely we want to hear the answer.
Hon. Jane Stewart: The Prime Minister was absolutely
right when he looked at the internal audit and identified that
there were 37 projects out of that audit that needed closer
review.
We identified overpayments in the area of $5,900, and I am
pleased to inform the House that the majority of that has now
been returned to the government.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, in
this case obviously the Prime Minister was not telling the House
the entire truth about the situation.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. I ask members to please stay
away from statements like that. It would help us all.
Mr. Monte Solberg: Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister was
not telling Canadians the entire story. We had a situation where
on February 2 he said that he contacted the RCMP about this
investigation. On February 9 he denied that there were problems
except for $251.
How can Canadians have any confidence at all in the Prime
Minister and what he says when he withholds his story about an
RCMP investigation in his riding that could have an implication
on millions of dollars of taxpayer money?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I can only say that this member, led by
the king of Stornoway—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. I think we should call
ourselves by our proper titles and not get into nicknames.
Hon. Jane Stewart: Of course you are right, Mr. Speaker,
my point being they are completely out of touch with the people.
Canadians understand what this issue is about. They have
separated the politics from the substance. They know that it is
not about waste. They know where the money is, and Canadians are
wondering why that party over there is not spending time on the
issues.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
obviously the minister is very desperate. We have a situation
where we have two separate criminal investigations in the Prime
Minister's riding, a forensic audit.
Now we see that the Prime Minister has completely contradicted
himself saying on February 2 that he contacted the RCMP about a
serious situation and on February 9 in the House saying that
there was absolutely no problem, it was only $251. Why would the
Prime Minister tell Canadians something in the House which was
exactly the wrong story, exactly not the case?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the person who is telling the wrong story is the finance
critic for the Reform Party because the Prime Minister was
referring to the progress on the further inquiry into the 37
cases, cases for further inquiry taken from the 459 in the sample
audit.
1435
The case the hon. member is referring to is not one of those 37
cases. They are two separate matters, and the hon. member should
admit it or agree that he does not know what he is talking about
on this and on anything else. No wonder he does not have any
questions on the budget. He does not know what he is talking
about on that either.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, I believe there are limits to what the
government and the minister ought to do.
The Prime Minister claims not to know Mr. Perreault, despite the
fact that he was in the PM's 1997 householder. The Prime
Minister says the file was not transferred to Saint-Maurice, but
the Deputy Minister confirms that it was transferred on April 9,
1998 and the grant paid out on April 14, 1998.
How can the minister not be aware of this?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, what I want to ensure is that I have all
the correct facts, and before I make further comment on this file
I will have the correct facts.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Minister has confirmed that there
are invoices from the company for the creation of five jobs.
No matter how the calculation is done, there is no justification
for subsidizing the creation of five jobs for $165,984, or
$33,000 per job.
Can the minister tell us where this money went?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I say again that we are looking into this
file and we will have the appropriate facts; but let us not
forget that as a result of this program, supported by the
Government of Quebec, we have made a real difference in the lives
of Quebecers in all the Bloc ridings, whether it be through
general grants and contributions or whether it be through the
transitional jobs fund and the Canada jobs fund.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, even the sketchy list of grants the HRD minister finally
released last week has serious gaps in reliability. Fortunately
we had a complete list for one of the programs obtained before
the audit came to light and the government went into damage
control mode.
When we compared the two a number of troubling discrepancies
came to light. In several cases projects showed up in different
ridings and some had even been deleted. Could the minister
explain why her list does not square with the one provided under
an act of parliament?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as was made abundantly clear when we
issued the 10,000 projects so that members of parliament could
know where the investments were being made in their ridings, this
list was not a master list because there was never a master list.
We have brought information from seven different data bases in
order to comply with a request from members.
When we look at these lists we do find projects in the ridings
of this member and the members in that party. I would like to
know, when they talk about waste, which of those projects they
would have cancelled.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, surely the minister is not suggesting that her lists are
so unreliable that they cannot be depended on when she hands them
out. Here is just one example.
The list we obtained under access legislation shows that three
projects received grants in the riding of Madawaska—Restigouche
held by the Liberals at the time, but the minister's list assigns
these same projects to other ridings even though they are still
in Madawaska—Restigouche. One is a college. Are the minister's
lists simply unreliable, or have they been deliberately tampered
with?
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: That question, as it is phrased, is in order
and I am going to permit the minister to answer.
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I reject the allegations made by the hon.
member. If she has particular questions on the list we will be
glad to answer them, as we have always said.
Let us look at some of the projects in the city of Calgary.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. The hon. Minister of Human
Resources Development.
Hon. Jane Stewart: Mr. Speaker, that party talks about
these projects being wasteful. Does the hon. member think that
it was a waste to support the United Farmers of Alberta so that
they could have a young person helping them and working with them
on important projects?
Does she think it was a waste to support the Developmental
Disabilities Resource Centre of Calgary with a computer literacy
training project assisted by a—
1440
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. Just as members have the
right to pose questions, ministers have a right to answer and
they will be heard. The hon. Minister of Human Resources
Development, if she wishes to proceed.
Hon. Jane Stewart: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I have a very long
list of questions that I would ask. Does the hon. member think
that money to the Society for the Treatment of Autism where we
had a summer program counsellor employed is the wrong thing to
do, or perhaps with the Interfaith Youth and Family Services
Society where a social worker was employed to help citizens?
There is a very long list here. They should tell us if they
want to go to these organizations and tell them that what they
are doing is a waste of money.
[Translation]
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in 1988, the
Prime Minister bought a golf course for the sum of $1 from
Consolidated Bathurst. In 1996, he sold a parcel of this land
for the sum of $525,000 to Claude Gauthier who, in turn,
received a CIDA contract worth $6 million and a $1.2 million grant
from Human Resources Development Canada.
Are the Prime Minister's financial successes due to his talents
as a real estate agent or to his contacts in the departments?
[English]
Hon. Maria Minna (Minister for International Cooperation,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, first, we do not give grants. We work
with companies that do work for CIDA in developing countries. I
do not have the name of this particular company. I will look
into it and give her the answer.
[Translation]
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, let us be
clear. Claude Gauthier received $6 million from CIDA. The
affair is controversial. Claude Gauthier received $1.2 million
from Human Resources Development Canada, and the affair is still
controversial. In both cases, the person responsible was the
present Minister for International Trade.
Does the Deputy Prime Minister not think that the Minister for
International Trade should stop hiding and answer for his
administration both at CIDA and at Human Resources Development
Canada?
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the member opposite knows the rules
of the House, as do her leader and the other members. We all
know that a minister may not be questioned about a department
for which he is not responsible.
The members opposite must respect the rules of this House.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. It is true that questions are asked
of the government and any minister may reply if he or she
wishes.
[English]
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the minister's grant list released last week has major
discrepancies from the list that we received under access to
information.
The minister asked for some specifics. Here are a few for her.
Progress Homes in St. John's got $2 million. Howmet Cercast in
Bourassa got $700,000. International Projects in Grand Falls got
$570,000. Amazingly all these companies were left off the
minister's list. This list is obviously totally flawed. How
could anyone believe any of the information that the minister is
giving?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, again I would refer the hon. member to
the notes that accompanied these lists. As we have said all
along, programs can change.
The lists are prepared in response to direct questions by those
asking for information, but I can confirm that this information
is as current as was available when we printed the list. I would
say to the hon. member that if he has specific questions to bring
them forward and we will respond to them.
1445
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the list changes on a daily basis and the minister has a
different answer from question to question.
Here are some more specifics for her. Reversomatic in South
Shore received $360,000. Survival Systems in
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough received $350,000. CDM Laminés
in Drummond received $300,000. These companies were left off the
list.
How can anybody possibly believe any of the information the
minister is giving us when the information changes daily?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, indeed programs are approved daily and so
we have changes in the list every single day. Recognizing this we
included with these lists information and direct lines. Members
of parliament can call an MP hot line. They can use e-mail. They
can raise questions here and I can follow up on them so that we
can continue to provide members of the House with the most
current information.
* * *
[Translation]
MINISTER FOR INTERNATIONAL TRADE
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker, there is a
devastating report on CIDA. There is a scandal at Human
Resources Development Canada.
Disasters, in both instances, and the current Minister for
International Trade has been the head of both organizations.
Now, this same minister is responsible for the huge Export
Development Corporation portfolio.
Since the corporation is beyond the reach of access to
information, does the minister realize that his incompetence
makes us nervous, at the very least?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have had very good conversations with my
deputy minister in recent weeks. I have every confidence that
all the files in my department, in international trade, are in
order. I want to reassure this House that the situation at
international trade is perfect.
The Export Development Corporation has announced earnings of
$118 million this year, which helped to create thousands upon
thousands of small Canadian businesses, including businesses in
Quebec, which truly appreciate the Export Development
Corporation.
* * *
[English]
INFRASTRUCTURE PROGRAM
Mr. John Finlay (Oxford, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my question
is for the President of the Treasury Board.
In light of the budget announcement regarding a new
infrastructure program and considering that many local
communities in my riding and across Canada are eager to
participate, could the minister detail her timeframe to negotiate
agreements with the provinces to make this program a reality?
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
first I would like to thank my colleague from Oxford for his
question.
The Minister of Finance has announced a $2.6 billion
infrastructure program. It includes green municipal
infrastructure, affordable housing and highways to answer the
needs of rural and urban communities in our country. Now that
the financial parameters are known, I intend to start
negotiations with our partners in April and hope to sign an
agreement by the end of this year, as we said in the Speech from
the Throne.
* * *
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, as
the saga continues, maybe the number the minister is talking
about is 1-800-C-O-V-E-R-U-P.
The Atlantic Yarn company of Atholville, New Brunswick received
a $2 million TJF grant. The paperwork released by the HRDC
minister last week states the project was approved in December
1998. However, in response to an access to information request
that we made we were informed that there was no paperwork on
file.
How can the HRDC minister claim that this project created 96
jobs when there is no paperwork on the file?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, members of that party can raise
individual circumstances. They can talk about this but we know
they are not interested in our work, in improving the
administration of my department.
1450
What we know is true is that they do not believe that the
Government of Canada should assist in areas like Atlantic Canada
and the Acadian Peninsula to help men and women who do not have
the opportunity to work. What we know is that they would cut $15
billion out of social programs because they think everyone should
be able to look after themselves. What we know is that they call
these programs wasteful when indeed we know they make a
difference in the lives of Canadians.
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the minister has it wrong. We are very interested.
This particular grant was two million tax dollars. Canadians are
interested in two million tax dollars, I can tell her that. This
is two million tax dollars from the minister's own special
reserve fund. Under access to information the law states that the
minister must provide this information. Either the minister
awarded $2 million without keeping records or she is refusing to
release the information.
Why is the minister making claims about job creation in the
House when her own department says that there is no paperwork?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, what Canadians are interested in is
ensuring that we do fix the problem in my department so that
there is appropriate paperwork that confirms the important
decisions that we make on their behalf. What Canadians are
interested in is separating the politics on this issue from the
substance and getting on with the important business of this
country. What Canadians are interested in is ensuring that the
Government of Canada is there when they need it and as long as we
are in power, it will be.
* * *
[Translation]
HEALTH
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Finance.
The minister is leaving nothing but crumbs from his tax banquet
for health care, only two cents for health for every dollar of
tax cuts.
Does the minister have a new definition of justice, a new
definition of equity in this country? There were only two cents
for health for every dollar of tax cuts.
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it will
take two things to consolidate our health care system: first, more
money, and we have increased transfers by 5% over the next two
years, and second, work and ideas on improving health care
services.
I am open to working with my provincial counterparts
to develop a health care system providing quality care for all
Canadians.
* * *
[English]
THE BUDGET
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I am back to the budget.
My province of Saskatchewan is getting an extra $80 million over
four years for health. That will pay for the health system for
just three days in four years. On the other hand, the minister
is giving big tax breaks to large corporations and millionaires.
I want to ask the minister one more time, where is the balance?
What is his definition of fairness? Is this a new Reform
definition of fairness where health only gets a couple of cents
and millionaires get big tax breaks?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, if we look at what the government has done over the
course of the last four years, as the Minister of Health has
indicated, in every single budget in the last four years there
have been increases to the transfers to the provinces for health
care.
The hon. member wants to talk about taxes. Perhaps he objects
to indexation so that poor and medium size families can get the
GST credit. Perhaps he objects to the cut in the middle income
tax rate so that farmers in Saskatchewan and small shopkeepers in
Saskatchewan can have a better life. Perhaps he objects to the
fact that there is $58 billion in tax cuts and $40 billion are
personal income taxes—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Madawaska—Restigouche.
* * *
[Translation]
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Jean Dubé (Madawaska—Restigouche, PC): Mr. Speaker, by adding
PLI Environmental to our list of companies being investigated by
the RCMP, we now have four grants totaling $6.2 million that are
currently under investigation. This is a far cry from the
original amount of $251.50.
Could the Minister of Human Resources Development tell us if, as
of today, there are more than four grants under investigation by
the RCMP?
1455
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member on a number of occasions
has spoken out positively about the work of the government and
its grants and contributions. He knows how important it is that
we fix the administrative deficiencies in my department so that
the programs that have made such a vast difference in his riding
can be continued and can be continued well.
Mr. Jean Dubé (Madawaska—Restigouche, PC): Mr. Speaker,
I will try again for an answer.
On August 3, 1998 Opitciwan sawmill advised HRDC in writing that
it had hired René Fugère, the same René Fugère who is being
investigated by the RCMP for being an unregistered lobbyist. He
is still not a registered lobbyist.
Has the HRDC minister asked the RCMP to investigate his latest
lobbying efforts with the department?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member makes reference to the
Opitciwan sawmill. As I did yesterday, I want to again confirm
to the House that this project is making a real difference in a
part of the country where unemployment was over 30%. We expected
to create 62 jobs and we have created 66. Ninety-two per cent of
those employed are aboriginals.
Is the hon. member saying that it was wrong for us to support
this program?
* * *
THE ENVIRONMENT
Hon. Charles Caccia (Davenport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
government has introduced legislation to protect transboundary
waters. At present the Minister of the Environment is trying to
protect Canada's water resources through a federal-provincial
accord aimed at prohibiting bulk water removal from drainage
basins.
Can the Minister of the Environment tell the House whether he
has reached an agreement with all provinces and territories?
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of the Environment, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, we do not yet have agreement of all provinces to the
accord. However, since last reporting to the House, Manitoba has
introduced legislation which is entirely consistent with the
accord. In addition, it has taken a position with respect to the
Devil's Lake diversion in North Dakota which again supports the
approach of the accord. I am hoping that province will quickly
come aboard with the accord itself, sign on to the accord and
that the neighbouring province of Saskatchewan and Alberta will
do the same in support of their fellow prairie province.
* * *
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the minister's own list tells us that Atlantic Yarn
Inc., kind of an ironic name when we think about it, received $1
million from the minister.
We took the minister up on her offer that if we phoned her
department we would get more information. Her department says
there is no information about this file. But the minister told us
that this $1 million created 96 jobs although there is not a
shred of paperwork.
There are only three possibilities. Either there is paperwork
which the minister's department is withholding, or this is
wishful thinking on the part of the minister, or the numbers are
pure fabrications. I ask the minister which is it?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I will be glad to look into this file on
behalf of the hon. member.
I want to clarify again that the undertakings in my department
are precisely to improve the management of our files so that we
can confirm without a doubt to Canadians the appropriateness of
the investments we make on their behalf. We know where the money
in our investments is going. We know that they are making a
difference in the lives of Canadians. But we also know that as a
result of this continued line of questioning from members of that
party that they do not believe the Government of Canada has any
role to play in ensuring that Canadians across the country
benefit from our good—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Lac-Saint-Jean.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphan Tremblay (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Department of Human Resources Development chose Mr. Champagne to
act on its behalf as trustee for a $1.2 million grant, until
Placeteco's bankruptcy was settled. It so happens that
Mr. Champagne also represents Claude Gauthier, who snapped up the
bankrupt company.
Does the minister find it normal for Mr. Champagne to be her
trustee and Claude Gauthier's lawyer at the same time?
1500
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, these questions have been asked before in
the House and I have responded to them. What I can say about
this particular undertaking is that it continues to thrive, it
continues to employ Canadians and it has new contracts. The
investment we made was supported and approved by the Government
of Quebec.
* * *
HEALTH CARE
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
NDP): Mr. Speaker, last night I read through the memoirs of
Paul Martin, Sr. when he was working on the establishment of
hospital insurance, the forerunner of medicare. On the day that
it was proclaimed Mr. Malcolm Taylor had this to say: “Paul
Martin, like Moses, was denied the opportunity of leading his
people into the promised land”. Nevertheless, his dream, the
founding of hospitalization, the forerunner to medicare, was now
a reality.
My question is for the Minister of Finance. In his budget, why
is he now allowing Alberta and Ontario to turn his father's dream
into something like a two tier health care nightmare? Why is he
not following his father's footsteps and actually doing something
to assist medicare and health care in this country?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the first thing I would like to do is congratulate the
hon. member on his choice of reading material. I would suggest
to him that, instead of only looking at the index page, if he
read the whole book it would do him an enormous amount of good.
I want to thank the hon. member as well. He has essentially
pointed out that health care or medicare is a great heritage of
the Liberal Party and we will protect it.
* * *
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development and
it is simple. Will the minister for HRDC tell this House exactly
how many HRDC grants are under RCMP investigation?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, what I can say is that out of tens of
thousands of projects sponsored by my department, I am currently
aware of seven active RCMP investigations and two active police
investigations on grants and contributions.
* * *
1505
[Translation]
PRIVILEGE
AMENDMENTS TO BILL C-20
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, you have
before you the member for Rimouski—Mitis, who is deeply saddened
today.
I want to tell you about an extremely serious situation. I had
never ever imagined that such a shameful thing could take place
in this archetype of democracy in Canada. Let me explain.
On Tuesday, February 29, 2000, the deputy principal clerk sent a
letter to the office of the Bloc Quebecois leader, a letter
which I am prepared to table, if you ask me to do so.
This letter lists various reasons to support the
rejection of 700 motions in amendment tabled by the Bloc
Quebecois, at report stage of Bill C-20.
Two of these 700 amendments had not been sent to the Journals
Branch, and this was cited to me an example of reasons to reject
amendments. I have these two amendments with me.
Copies of these amendments, which bear reference numbers 5180
and 5163, were given to me by the deputy clerk, and I can also
table them. Again, these two amendments were never sent by the
Bloc Quebecois to the Journals Branch.
Following inquiries by the office of the leader of the Bloc
Quebecois to obtain clarification and explanation, it was
apparently admitted that an administrative error had taken
place.
We were told that, because of the large number of amendments
tabled, the clerks worked—and this is what it is important that
you hear, Mr. Speaker—from the legislative counsel's data bank
rather than from the paper copies we tabled.
Given the relationship of confidentiality that must exist
between the legislative counsel and the members who ask him to
draft amendments—and you know how important this relationship of
confidentiality and trust is—this is an unacceptable breach of
the rights and privileges of Bloc Quebecois members.
I am truly almost speechless, although I still have lots of
energy left to protest this serious breach of democracy.
How does one describe such a serious breach in parliament
itself, a place that should be the very embodiment of democracy?
We are entitled to ask ourselves some very, very serious
questions.
Does the explanation lie in the nature of Bill C-20, which,
however much the government protests, focuses exclusively on the
future of Quebec?
1510
Mr. Speaker, I appeal solemnly to your sense of justice and
objectivity. The nature of your function makes you the
guardian of the rights and privileges of the House of Commons as
an institution and of the members that compose it.
There is no doubt that this is a breach of the fundamental
freedom of speech of Bloc Quebecois members and of all members
of the House. In this regard, I quote from page 261 of Marleau
and Montpetit, which says that freedom of speech is:
—a fundamental right without which they would be hampered in the
performance of their duties.
It permits them to speak in the House without inhibition, to
refer to any matter or express any opinion as they see fit, to
say what they feel needs in the furtherance of the national
interest and the aspirations of their constituents.
This action imperils these rights, which everyone recognizes as
fundamental. Rejection of amendments we had not even introduced
has infringed upon our most basic right, namely our ability as
parliamentarians to choose which amendments we wish to introduce
or not to introduce.
But there is more. In accordance with the technical advice
received from House staff, we submitted a new list of
amendments which were again rejected.
This constitutes not only an attack on parliamentary privilege,
but also, I would add, contempt of the House, because these acts
are of such a nature as to directly or indirectly impede the
members of the Bloc Quebecois in the performance of their
duties.
As Speaker Sauvé stated in a 1980 ruling cited in Marleau and
Montpetit, page 67:
While our privileges are defined, contempt of the House has no
limits. When new ways are found to interfere with our
proceedings, so too will the House, in appropriate cases, be
able to find that a contempt of the House has occurred.
It is imperative for you to consider that there has been a
breach of the privileges of the Bloc Quebecois and contempt of
this House.
This situation leads me to wonder about the future, particularly
in the days to come when we shall be initiating the debate at
report stage of Bill C-20, and about what treatment those of us
in the Bloc Quebecois can expect from the House and its staff.
Should you accept my question of privilege, I am prepared to
introduce the appropriate motion for the entire matter to be
referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House
Affairs.
The Speaker: I will first hear the government House leader, but
I accept the hon. member's proposal to table these documents.
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I think the deputy leader of the
Bloc Quebecois has brought two different matters to the
attention of the Chair.
The first is the fact that her party's amendments were rejected.
She is relating the fact that the rejected amendments were in
draft form only and had been submitted without her approval it
seems. The second is that the legislative counsel in the
preparation of bills could, apparently, give information to the
staff of the Speaker of the House.
I think these are the two matters raised by the member opposite.
If, Mr. Speaker, those who support you, that is the clerks of
the House, rejected on your behalf amendments that were
apparently not—and I mean “apparently not”, because I have not
seen the documents in question—formally introduced, the matter is
a dead issue, in my opinion, since, if the members had no
intention of formally introducing any amendments, the fact of
having them rejected is of no consequence.
1515
Second, we must take a moment in this whole exercise to look at
what we are doing to all those who support us so well in this
House.
I say this at all levels for the people working for us. We are
creating impossible situations for those working in parliament
with results that such impossible situations may cause.
To date, there are on the Order Paper, I think, 406 amendments
to a bill of no more than a page and a half in length.
Mrs. Pauline Picard: So withdraw it.
Mrs. Monique Guay: That is our privilege.
Hon. Don Boudria: No, no, it is nobody's privilege and I will
get back to this later on. Second—
Mr. Paul Crête: We are not in a dictatorship, here.
The Speaker: Order, please. This is a question of privilege that
concerns all members and I would like to hear it.
Hon. Don Boudria: Recently, we had a situation where we had to
deal with close to 500 amendments. If I am not mistaken, there
were 471, but these amendments concerned a bill that had
hundreds of pages.
Now, we are faced with the threat of 1,000 amendments to a bill
that is one and a half page long.
Those who set the rules of this House—and it is not I, but those
who came before me—of this Canadian parliamentary democracy opted
for the British model, never intended, of course, for you, me or
this House, that the purpose of the report stage of a bill would
be to stop the legislative process. That was definitely not the
intention of those who made these rules.
By creating such situations, we tax the system in this place to
the point where parliament is totally paralysed, and we have to
live with the result.
The result, according to members opposite—and I cannot even know
if the allegation is true or false—is that those who support you
are so overburdened by the excess work that, according to the
accusers, they are unable to do justice to the Chair regarding
this issue.
I do not agree with their analysis, but let us not forget the
root cause of what is going on in this parliament. What is going
on is that some members want to prevent parliament from
legislating, by resorting to tools that do not even exist. Those
who want to do that are, in my opinion, doing something totally
unacceptable. When I say this, I am not imputing any motives.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: He is indeed imputing motives, Mr.
Speaker.
Hon. Don Boudria: No, I am merely repeating—
The Speaker: Order, please. I wish to hear what the member has
to say.
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Speaker, I do not believe I am imputing
motives and it is up to you to decide, which you will do with
your customary wisdom.
What I am saying is that members said in their testimony before
parliamentary committees that they intended to introduce
amendments in this House with the ultimate goal of bringing
parliament to a halt. I am not imputing motives. I am merely
repeating what the members who are making accusations against
those working for you today in the House have threatened to do.
This is the result of the situation we find ourselves in today.
I could table the statements I have just described, Mr. Speaker,
to the effect that they intended to bring parliament to a halt
by bogging it down with all this work.
1520
Mr. Speaker, I submit that you have the support of the House in
your work. Those working for you do their jobs not just well,
but extremely well. I congratulate them and you on the work you
do, which is to represent and lead us well.
The Speaker: I do not wish a debate, but I see that the hon.
member for Rimouski—Mitis would like to add something, after
which I will recognize the official opposition's House leader.
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I would
like to add a small clarification.
When I said that the bundle of documents we submitted was not
used, it is because the clerk who shares space with the
legislative counsel consulted the counsel's data base.
Therefore, he saw on the legislative counsel's computer, to be
more specific, all of the amendments in the data base. It is
that data base that was used to deny our amendments, including
two that had never been introduced.
That is why I say that there has been contempt of this House.
Someone went into a computer, that of the legislative counsel,
in whom we have every confidence.
[English]
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it
is clear to me that the government House leader is upset with the
number of amendments put forward. I know you will deal as best
as you can with whether they are in order, how they will be
grouped and all that. We have to leave it to you and your staff
to do that.
It obvious to me that what has happened here again is that we
have the government bringing forward a very controversial bill.
It has limited debate in the House of Commons. It went to
committee and it limited the debate in committee.
It refused to let the committee travel. It refused to let the
committee have a full list of witnesses. At every opportunity it
refused to allow the opposition parties, whether for or against
the bill, to have ample opportunity to discuss the bill in its
entirety, clause by clause, to get a full hearing of it. It
disallowed any travel whatsoever.
It is crocodile tears from the government House leader to say
that someone is obstructing the business of government when we
repeatedly see a record number of time allocation and closure
motions by the government. Time after time the government has
been stepping in not to interrupt the operations of government
but the operations of democracy.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
there are two matters.
First, I wish to state that, given the speech by the government
House leader of a few minutes ago, which was melodramatic to say
the least, it is not in any way our intention in this question
of privilege to challenge the excellent work of all of the House
of Commons staff. That is not the point.
Two questions were raised. The totally inappropriate imputing
of motives by the government House leader in his speech just now
notwithstanding, there are two issues.
We have a relationship of confidentiality with the legislative
counsels. We worked with one of them in drafting a number of
amendments.
A number of the amendments we had prepared were tabled. I
believe it to be the most basic of our privileges to select
which ones to table and which not.
We noted something that gives us cause for concern. The
government House leader said “They were not tabled, not
selected, no problem”. The problem is that we now have doubts
about the confidentiality of our relationship with the
legislative counsels. It appears that the clerks, which ones I
cannot say, used the legislative counsels' data base, which
ought to be confidential. That is where the problem lies.
1525
The other problem is that the Deputy Principal Clerk pointed out
to us that a number of our amendments were rejected for
technical reasons. He explained the technical reasons for the
rejection of these amendments. We relied on what he said and
not on the remarks of the legislative counsel, as the government
House leader intimated. We relied on what the Deputy Principal
Clerk had to say. We followed his recommendations. We reworked
the amendments and resubmitted them and they were again
rejected. It seems there is a bit of a problem.
I was listening to the government House leader and his remarks
oddly enough made me think of those who justified barn burnings
as a means to fight against the sovereignist movement. We have
to wonder whether the end does not justify the means, in the
case of those opposite.
The Speaker: There are two issues here. I will look into the
first and come back to the House with a ruling.
As to the second issue on whether amendments are in order, it
should be discussed when Bill C-20 is before us. At that point I
will listen to all members and make a ruling.
The first thing is very serious for us in parliament, because,
next to the members, the clerks are essential to the running of
the business of this House. I will therefore look into what I
have heard this afternoon and get back to the House.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[English]
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36(8) I have the honour to table, in
both official languages, the government's response to four
petitions.
* * *
INTERPARLIAMENTARY DELEGATIONS
Mr. Bryon Wilfert (Oak Ridges, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 34 I have the honour to present to the
House, in both official languages, the report of the Canada-Japan
Interparliamentary Group.
The delegation participated in the eighth annual meeting of the
Asia-Pacific Parliamentary Forum in Canberra, Australia, from
January 9 to 14, 2000.
* * *
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Orders 133(3) and 140 I have the honour to
present the 18th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure
and House Affairs regarding the first report of the examiner of
petitions for private bills presented to the House on February 7
concerning Bill S-14, an act to amend the act of incorporation of
the board of elders of the Canadian district of the Moravian
Church in America.
If the House gives its consent, I intend to move concurrence in
the 18th report later this day.
* * *
CANADA NATIONAL PARKS ACT
Hon. Sheila Copps (Minister of Canadian Heritage, Lib.)
moved for leave to introduce Bill C-27, an act respecting the
national parks of Canada.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
1530
ACCESS TO INFORMATION ACT
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.) moved for leave
to introduce Bill C-448, an act to amend the Access to
Information Act (Crown corporations).
He said: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to reintroduce my private
member's bill, an act to amend the Access to Information Act,
which would include all crown corporations.
Clearly, Canadians want an open and accountable government and
access to information ensures that the government is as
transparent as is reasonably possible. Yet some crown
corporations, not all, such as CBC and Canada Post, which are
funded by public money, are exempt from access to information.
Crown corporations must be open, accessible and accountable to
all the taxpayers because we pay the bills.
What my bill would do is open all crown corporations to public
scrutiny and ensure that the corporations are open to honesty,
integrity and openness. In other words, all corporations would
be available to access to information.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES READJUSTMENT ACT
Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton East, Ref.) moved for leave
to introduce Bill C-449, an act to change the name of the
electoral district of Edmonton East.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I wish to introduce the bill to call for
a change to the name of the riding of Edmonton East to better
reflect the community that it serves.
The Edmonton East riding as presently known also includes the
city centre portion, the Alberta Legislative Centre, as well as
the city hall. It is my belief that a preferred name for this
riding would be Edmonton Centre East. This would reflect the
fact that a sizeable portion of people do live within the city
centre core and properly identify with it in that fashion.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
PETITIONS
CHILD POVERTY
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
am pleased to present a petition on behalf of a number of
Canadians, including from my own riding of Mississauga South, on
the issue of child poverty.
The petitioners would like to draw to the attention of the House
that one in five Canadian children do live in poverty; that also
on November 24, 1989, the House of Commons passed a resolution to
seek to eliminate child poverty by the year 2000; and also that
Canada's number of poor children has increased by 60%.
The petitioners therefore call on parliament, in the 2000
budget, to introduce a multi-year plan to improve the well-being
of Canada's children, and the government has done just that.
CHILD PORNOGRAPHY
Mr. Reed Elley (Nanaimo—Cowichan, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it
is my pleasure to rise today in the House to present two
petitions.
The first petition is from 168 people in my riding and across
Vancouver Island who are very concerned about the lack of a law
in the Province of British Columbia regarding child pornography.
They are asking that parliament override the B.C. Court of
Appeal decision, reinstate the clauses in the criminal code that
make possession of child pornography in B.C. illegal and that
this be done as soon as possible.
NATUROPATHIC PRACTITIONERS
Mr. Reed Elley (Nanaimo—Cowichan, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the second petition has been signed by 175 people on Vancouver
Island who are asking that parliament pass legislation
recognizing naturopathic practitioners as equal to members of the
Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons. They would thereby be
eligible for coverage in government medical insurance.
1535
IMMIGRATION
Mr. Dennis Gruending (Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, NDP):
Mr. Speaker, I have a number of petitions containing hundreds of
names, most of them people from Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. I might
add that I have had many letters from these people and have also
met with a good number of them.
These people are petitioning and calling on parliament to
immediately rescind the so-called head tax on immigrants and
refugees.
In the budget earlier this week the so-called head tax was
rescinded for refugees. I have called my constituents to see if
they wanted this matter to rest but they have insisted that the
head tax also be rescinded for all immigrants.
I am pleased to present this petition on behalf of many people
in Saskatoon.
[Translation]
GENETICALLY MODIFIED FOOD LABELLING
Mr. René Laurin (Joliette, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am tabling in
this House a petition signed by 216 people.
The petitioners call on parliament to quickly pass legislation
to make it mandatory to label all foods that are totally or
partially genetically modified.
[English]
CHILD POVERTY
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr. Speaker,
it is my pleasure to rise today to present a petition signed by
130 citizens of Truro, Nova Scotia. It is sponsored by the
United Church of Canada, the St. Andrews United Church in Truro
and Maggie's Place, also located in Truro.
They call on the government to address the issue of child
poverty and, in particular, they have several issues they want to
make the House aware of. One is the fact that one in five
children now lives in poverty in Canada. They also want to
remind the House that in 1989 the House of Commons unanimously
resolved to end child poverty in Canada by the year 2000, but
since then child poverty has actually increased by more than 60%.
The petitioners call on parliament to use the federal budget of
2000 to introduce a multi-year plan to improve the well-being of
Canada's children. They urge parliament to fulfil the promise of
1989 in the House of Commons resolution to end child poverty by
the year 2000.
EQUALITY
Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
today I take great pride in presenting a petition put forth by
2,500 concerned Canadians, mostly from the province of Quebec.
These petitioners ask our government to affirm that all
Canadians are equal under all circumstances and without exception
in the province of Quebec and throughout Canada. They wish to
remind our government to only enact legislation that affirms the
equality of each and every individual under the laws of Canada.
CHILD PORNOGRAPHY
Ms. Wendy Lill (Dartmouth, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased this afternoon to present a petition on behalf of over 75
people in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia who are horrified by pornography
which depicts children and are astounded by legal determinations
that possession of such pornography is not criminal.
My constituents would like to see, through the enactment and
enforcement of the criminal code, the protection of the most
vulnerable members of society. They would like to see parliament
take measures to ensure that possession of child pornography
remains a serious criminal offence and that federal police forces
be directed to give priority to enforcing the laws that protect
children.
[Translation]
GENETICALLY MODIFIED FOOD LABELLING
Mr. Yvan Bernier (Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, I am tabling in this House a petition signed by
nearly 1,000 people from my riding.
The petitioners want to make their position on genetically
modified foods known to the government. In this petition, they
remind us that Canadian consumers are entitled to relevant
information.
They also remind us that, under the federal government's current
policy, labelling is only voluntary. They are asking the
government to take action on this issue.
[English]
CHILD PORNOGRAPHY
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I cannot
resist this. Getting me to stand and not recognizing me for 20
times adds to my much needed exercise regimen, so I thank you for
your consideration, Mr. Speaker.
I am very proud today to stand on behalf of constituents, not
only in my riding but also in one of the Liberal held ridings in
Edmonton, as I recognize these addresses here.
These people are stating to the House that where they place the
protection of children at the highest possible priority, they
request that parliament take whatever measures are necessary in
order to immediately reinstate the criminal code provision which
makes the possession of child pornography illegal.
1540
On behalf of the petitioners, I am very pleased to present these
128 names, adding to the over 500,000 now on record on this
issue.
ARMED FORCES
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I am very pleased and honoured to present a petition
signed by almost 1,000 Manitobans and Canadians pertaining to the
decision by the government to proceed with court martial
proceedings against a citizen of Canada, a resident of Winnipeg
and a member of the Canadian Armed Forces who served this country
with dedication and distinction.
The petitioners express their concern about the anthrax
vaccination and about the government's decision to require
members of our armed forces to take this vaccination despite
concerns about safety.
They call upon the government to request that the military's
court martial of Sergeant Mike Kipling be stopped and a proper
impartial investigation into this whole affair be conducted.
CHILD PORNOGRAPHY
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I have
a petition from people in the area of Lake Louise, Banff and
Canmore calling on the government to do whatever it takes,
including invoking the notwithstanding clause, to put an end to
this issue regarding child pornography.
I would like to add these names to the already over half a
million names on file. I thank these people for submitting it.
* * *
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
following question will be answered today: No. 66.
.[Text]
Question No. 66—Mr. John Williams:
Regarding page 10.6 of the Public Accounts of Canada 1998-1999,
Volume II (ii), under the rubric “Payments of Claims Against the
Crown—Department of National Defence—Damage to Personal
Property—Holiday Inn Harbour View” in the amount of $2.123:
(a) when did the events happen; (b) were DND personnel at
the Holiday Inn Harbour View for a sanctioned DND event or was
there another event going on; (c) what was generally damaged;
(d) which damaged and/or destroyed items were replaced; (e)
were those involved with this case reprimanded and/or terminated;
and (f) was the incident reported to any police force,
including military police?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National
Defence, Lib.): (a) September 23, 1998.
(b) A driver from the Department of National Defence, DND, was
delivering luggage to DND personnel who were staying at the
Holiday Inn Harbour View while on temporary duty in Halifax.
(c) The DND driver backed into the overhang at the front of the
hotel.
(d) The overhang was repaired.
(e) The DND driver was verbally reprimanded by his supervisor
and placed on remedial training.
(f) No.
[English]
Mr. Derek Lee: I ask, Mr. Speaker, that the remaining
questions be allowed to stand.
The Deputy Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
* * *
MOTION FOR PAPERS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
would ask you to be so kind as to call Motion No. P-7.
That an Order of the House do issue for copies of a poll
referred to by the Prime Minister during question period on May 5,
1998 in which he stated that “Only 10% of Canadians think the
Reform Party members are doing this because they are
compassionate but 75% of Canadians think they are doing it for
politics.”
Mr. Derek Lee: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to submit a
return to that motion.
The Deputy Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House that
Motion No. P-7 for the Production of Papers be deemed
to have been adopted?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to)
Mr. Derek Lee: Mr. Speaker, I would ask you to be so kind as
to call motion No. P-9.
That an Order of the House do issue for copies of all documents,
reports, minutes of meetings, notes, memos, correspondence and
invoices relating to the Canadian underground economy, the
estimated size of this “non-reported” economy in monetary
terms, and the estimated amount of federal tax revenue that the
government has not collected due to the undergroung economy.
Mr. Derek Lee: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to submit a
return to Motion No. P-9.
The Deputy Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House that
Motion No. P-9 for the Production of Papers be deemed
to have been adopted?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to)
Mr. Derek Lee: I ask, Mr. Speaker, that the remaining
Notices of Motions for the Production of Papers stand.
The Deputy Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
[Translation]
Mr. André Bachand: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. We
know now that consideration at report stage of Bill C-20 will
begin this Friday.
On February 17, as indicated in today's order paper, under
Notices of Motions for the Production of Papers, I asked, in
Motion P-34, that copies of all correspondence between the
federal government and the provincial and territorial
governments concerning Bill C-20 be tabled in the House.
I would like to make sure, through you, Mr. Speaker, that the
parliamentary secretary will table these documents by Friday.
[English]
Mr. Derek Lee: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member is asking
for unanimous consent to table, that would not be forthcoming at
this time, but a further consultation might advance the file
considerably.
The Deputy Speaker: It appears that there will have to be
further consultations. It is not a matter for the Chair to make
a ruling on it at this point. I am not sure that it is a good
point of order, but I think the hon. member for
Richmond—Arthabaska has made his point. Everyone's position is
clear now.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
1545
[English]
THE BUDGET
FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF MINISTER OF FINANCE
The House resumed from February 29 consideration of the motion
that this House approves in general the budgetary policy of the
government, and of the amendment, and of the amendment to the
amendment.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
am pleased to join in the debate on budget 2000, a budget which
will translate into a better quality of life for all Canadians.
I want to talk about two issues. I want to talk about health
care and I want to talk about the specific budget provision on
extending maternity and parental leave to a full year which was
announced in the budget. It is something I support very much.
Not too long ago the National Forum on Health did a two year
comprehensive study. Experts in the health care system of Canada
did a study and concluded that there was enough money in the
health care system. They also observed that about $11 billion in
the health care system was not being spent wisely. They
recommended that we need to spend more prudently and more wisely
in terms of our valuable health care dollars.
Ontario Premier Mike Harris has recently gone on a tirade of
blaming the federal government. There were cuts which all
Canadians took right across the board, including the federal
government, and yes there were some cuts in health care. What was
the response of Mike Harris? He closed hospitals. He also
downsized beds in other hospitals. He spent millions of dollars
firing nurses. He created a crisis, just like John Snobelen who
said, “We have to create a crisis in education. Then we can try
to fix it and then we are going to be heroes”.
Here it is again. Mike Harris on the front page of the
newspapers is blaming the federal government and saying that “If
we do not get this fixed, and the federal government does not fix
it, what are we going to do? We are going to have user fees just
like Ralph Klein”.
How is it that in the last budget $11.5 billion was increased in
the CHST to the provinces of which $3.5 billion was available to
the province of Ontario? How much of the $3.5 billion has Mike
Harris taken already that is available to him immediately? Eight
hundred million dollars. He still has $2.7 billion that he has
not even drawn down in addition to his share of the $2.5 billion
which has just been advanced in budget 2000.
What else did he say? He said, “We have a crisis in health
care. Everything is a problem and it is all the federal
government's fault, but what are we going to do? We are going to
spend $4.3 billion on tax cuts and still have a deficit”.
Deficits are financing tax cuts and everyone knows that health
care is a priority.
Given the analysis of Mike Harris maybe we should suggest that
he seek some of that health care, mental health care. But I am
not going to suggest that. The reason is that he closed down 10
mental health institutions in Ontario since he was elected as
premier. He cannot go to a mental health institution.
In fact 35% of the homeless in Toronto and across the country
are people who suffer from mental health problems. He is blaming
homelessness on the federal government yet he is the one who
closed those institutions. He is the one who decided that health
care was not a priority in Ontario. He said it was tax cuts. He
created a crisis in health care, but the money is there. Today he
is saying he needs money. Well, the money is there. Mike Harris,
shame.
I will now move on to something a little more constructive,
rather than talk about a premier who is doing a disservice to
Canada.
The budget provides that the parental and maternity leave
benefits under EI be extended, doubled to a full year. This is a
subject I have a lot of interest in because I had a private
member's bill some time ago on the same issue. I am very pleased.
The best outcome for a private member's bill is to have it
adopted by the government and implemented quickly along with the
other budget provisions. I do not want to talk about the dollars
and the cents. I want to talk about why I wanted to see that in
the budget.
1550
I had the opportunity to chair a committee on investing in
children and valuing our caregivers. I want to share some of the
observations and some of the principles which we would like to
follow.
Our caregiver policies should be child centred and promote the
best interests of children to the greatest extent possible. We
thought we should presume that parents are the primary
caregivers. They are in the best position to determine the best
possible care arrangements for their children.
We also thought policies should be flexible with the right
options and choices and make it feasible for either parent to
provide care. We also thought they should be inclusive and
responsive to the social realities and circumstances of parents
and their children. They should be fair and equitable and
neither penalize nor compel specific caregiving choices.
The 1996 National Longitudinal Survey of Children and Youth
found that 25% of Canada's children are entering adult life with
significant emotional, behavioural, academic or social problems.
In the words of Dr. Paul Steinhauer of Voices for Children, with
one in four children entering adult life significantly
handicapped, we can look forward to a society that will be less
able to generate the economic base required to supply the social
supports and services needed by one in four adults unable to
carry their own weight.
I wanted to look at this more, so I found a research study which
came out of a White House conference in 1997. One of the
principal findings was that the neurological foundations for
rational thinking, problem solving and general reasoning appear
to be established by age one. It also found that at birth the
human brain is far from fully formed and it is estimated that
about 80% of the lifetime development of the human brain is
complete by age three.
This got me thinking that the early years of childhood
development are extremely important. Dr. Fraser Mustard, who
appeared before the HRD committee described the first year of
human life as being dynamite in terms of neural development.
Breast feeding is also an important implication. I came across
a study done in April 1998. Dr. Christopher Ruhm of the
University of North Carolina published a research paper entitled
“Parental Leave and Child Health”. He studied 25 years of
population data in nine European countries. He found a 29%
reduction in infant mortality where parental leave of at least 50
weeks was taken. This is unbelievable. He is basically saying
that when a child gets secure, consistent attachment with an
engaged, committed adult during its first year, healthier
outcomes do occur.
This was one of the reasons that the committee which I chaired
recommended doubling the maternity and parental leave benefits.
Parents could then have the option to provide direct parental
care during that vital first year.
To follow that up, when we had the debate in the House on
taxation of the family, the finance minister asked the finance
committee to review taxation of the family to determine whether
or not there were some areas to cover. I will not go into the
details of the report but one of our three principal
recommendations was to extend maternity and parental leave to a
full year.
Specifically the budget proposes that the time be doubled to one
year. Currently there is a two week waiting period, 15 weeks of
maternity leave and an optional 10 weeks for parental leave. When
this is taken altogether and an additional 35 weeks of optional
parental leave is added, it means parents will have the
opportunity to have one of them with their child during the vital
first year.
The government also took the advice of the finance subcommittee
to reduce the number of hours from 700 to 600 of insurable hours
to qualify and it said that if the second parent decided to take
some of that time off, the two week waiting period would be
waived. This is even more of a benefit.
I was looking at some numbers. People have said to me that they
cannot afford to live if they withdraw from their jobs. They
cannot afford to receive just the benefits with a maximum of
about $413.
It dawned on me when I looked at when both parents are working
and they have an infant child, they have to pay for child care
expenses. Although there is a child care expense deduction, that
deduction is only available to the lowest income earner of the
two spouses. It usually means they are only getting a refund or a
benefit of about 25 cents on the dollar federally and
provincially combined. They also have reduced Canada child tax
benefits because that benefit which is payable to them is
determined on the basis of family income. There is a gradation
as a result of combined family income.
1555
I also thought of this very interesting and important point.
When both parents work and the woman chooses not to use a breast
pump to get mother's milk, they have to pay for baby formula.
Premixed baby formula can cost up to $4,000 a year, which is
after tax money. It is the equivalent of getting paid about an
additional $7,000 for that family.
I looked at the other side. What if somebody withdraws from the
paid labour force to provide direct parental care because they
felt their child needed it? All of a sudden there is a higher
Canada child tax benefit. The spousal amount comes into play as
well. Even if they got the full EI benefits which are taxable,
they still have their own personal amount to offset it. They
will not not use it all and there will an amount transferable to
the spouse who is in the paid labour force which means there will
be a further reduction of income taxes. The breast feeding
savings alone are a very significant amount and they get the EI
benefit for a full year.
The issue for me is not the money. The issue is children and
how we invest in our children so that they are physically and
mentally healthy. The fact remains that all of the research I
have seen indicates that when children get the kind of care they
need during that vital first year, they have better physical,
mental and social health outcomes. And when that happens, and
the national longitudinal survey says that 25% of our children
are entering adult life with problems, the percentage of children
with problems goes down. That means we have lower health care
costs, lower educational costs, lower social program costs and
lower justice costs.
One of the things we know is that many children who have
problems, including things like fetal alcohol syndrome, run afoul
of the laws of Canada and end up in court. I just wrote a
monograph on that subject. The Minister of Justice confirmed to
me that 50% of youth in the jails in Manitoba and Saskatchewan
have fetal alcohol syndrome.
It is time we invested in our children. We can invest in our
children by valuing our caregivers and by making sure parents
have the very best opportunity to provide the kind of care their
child needs.
We have to understand that all parents do not live in urban
centres. Child care may not be accessible. It may not be
affordable. There may not be another family member, close
friend, or neighbour who is able to provide that care for their
child.
The provision of extending parental leave is a progressive move.
It says to Canadian families across the country that there is
another opportunity, option or choice for them to arrange their
affairs to ensure that their children get the best possible care
particularly in that first year of life.
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
have a couple of questions for the member.
It is my understanding that when the health care system began,
this project was to be funded 50% by the provinces and 50% by the
federal government. I think we are now down to about 16% for the
federal government, or somewhere around 15%, and up to 85% and
even higher for the provinces.
I also know that in 1993 the government took a healthy chunk out
of the transfer payments to the provinces which maintain health
care. In Alberta that resulted in about a 35% decrease in
funding to provide health care services. It was probably a
higher amount in Ontario.
It is amazing that the member would stand and condemn those
provinces for trying to do something about the situation that
exists in their provinces when it is the federal government that
has created the problem by these extremely high cuts that have
never come close to being replaced. I would like his comment on
what has happened to the 50:50 help.
1600
Knowing the member as I do, I wonder how he feels about the
millions and millions of dollars being spent by the government on
RCMP investigations at HRDC, and all of the spending going on at
the heritage department for films like Bubbles Galore and a
committee on seniors and sexuality. Those are a couple of
examples of the hundreds of absolutely stupid things on which the
government has spent money. I say stupid because that is what
they are.
I wonder how he feels about this absolutely idiotic spending
that goes on within his government.
Mr. Paul Szabo: Mr. Speaker, I do not know where the
member got his information, but there was $61 billion spent last
year by all governments on health care. In 2000-01, $31 billion
will be transferred from the federal government under the CHST,
of which $17 billion will be targeted to health.
The member should also know that under the CHST, although it is
calculated under health, post-secondary education and the social
transfer, the provinces are not bound to spend the money in all
of those areas. There are no strings. They have to spend it in
that envelope, but it all could go to health, et cetera.
On top of that, $3 billion is directly spent by the federal
government on aboriginal health and on health care for the
forces. Therefore, $20 billion out of the $64 billion which is
spent on health care is funded by the federal government, which
equates to 31 cents on the dollar. When we add the $9.5 billion
in equalization payments, the total federal transfer is $40
billion.
I am sorry, but the member seems to have his facts wrong.
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I do not disagree with the member's concerns about Mike
Harris and the direction in which he is taking the province of
Ontario, although I must say that these days I am having a bit of
difficulty distinguishing between the Harris Conservatives and
the federal Liberals.
However, if the member is so concerned, why is the federal
government inviting Mike Harris to do more damage? Why is the
government creating the opportunity, as it is doing through this
budget, to allow Mike Harris to open up the Canada Health Act to
make further inroads in privatized health care?
The House must excuse me for being so blunt, but when it comes
to the National Forum on health, the member is wrong, wrong,
wrong. The National Forum on Health was very clear about the
need for the country to preserve and strengthen medicare. It
recommended enhancing medicare by putting in place a national
home care plan, national drug coverage and reform at the primary
health care level.
Everything the government is doing is in the opposite direction.
One of the key players in the national forum, Tom Kent, said that
the government must ensure that cash transfers rise to 25% in the
short run and that we aim for 50-50 down the road.
Why is the member ignoring important policy analysts like Tom
Kent and Monique Bégin? Why is the government ignoring the
National Forum on Health? Why is the government ignoring the
advice of Canadians?
Mr. Paul Szabo: Mr. Speaker, although the member said I
am wrong, wrong, wrong, I did not comment on the points she
raised, so I am not exactly sure how she got there.
The point is that the National Forum on Health advised
Canadians, as well as the government, that our health care system
had the cash but it was not being spent wisely and that it was
necessary to get together with the provinces to start
rationalizing our health care system to make sure we deal with it
properly.
I agree with the member that there are areas in which we have to
provide some vision with regard to the longer term because we
have an aging society and the demands on health care will
increase. We have put forward another $2.5 billion in one-time
transitional funding for the provinces so that we will have the
time to get together with them to discuss the future of health
care and to do it right.
We also invested $11.5 billion in health care in the previous
budget, the single largest investment the government has ever
made. That represents a 25% increase over two years. That
reflects the commitment of the federal government. The total
support for health care and education will rise by $31 billion
this year.
When we get together with the provinces the Government of Canada
will be there defending the Canada Health Act, regardless of
people like Mike Harris and Ralph Klein. Canada will have one
health care system and it will be for all Canadians; not because
they have money, but because they need health care.
1605
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to have this opportunity to comment on the
budget. I have been commenting on the mismanagement of public
funds by the government over the last few weeks, but that all
ties in to the budget and I want to make some remarks today in
that regard.
Over the last few years, in particular under the Liberal
government, the budget has become much less a fiscal document and
more of a political document. This budget was no exception. In
fact it continued the trend.
The budget took what I would call a shotgun approach to
government spending. It has thinly spread new tax money in all
directions, with no commitment to controlling taxpayer funds and
virtually ignoring the tax strain on middle class families.
The government and the finance minister, in spite of the
minister's undeserved reputation for good management, have
actually overspent the budget terribly over the last few years.
In 1997-98 the minister exceeded his projected spending by $3
billion. Remember, a billion dollars is like winning a lottery
for $1 million, or winning the Who Wants to be a
Millionaire program, except that a person would have to do
that three times every day for a whole year to have it total $1
billion.
The finance minister, the so-called good manager, overspent in
1997-98 by $3 billion. In other words, he said he would spend
$105 billion and he actually spent over $108 billion. That was
in 1997-98.
What did he do in 1998-99? He overspent again; not by $3
billion, but by $7 billion. If we ran our households or
businesses that way we would be in real trouble. Canadians know
that, but the finance minister had no problem overspending in
1997-98 and 1998-99, by $3 billion and $7 billion respectively,
and he is still calling himself a good manager. I have to wonder
whether he lives in the real world.
In 1999-2000 he told us he would spend $111 billion. Lo and
behold, we find that what he actually will spend is $115 billion.
That is overspending by $4 billion.
The finance minister has a very poor track record for staying
within his budget. That is one of the points we want to make
today.
In addition, he has gone on a spending spree. Not content to
overspend year by year from what he told us he was going to
spend, he has now decided to go on a real spending spree. Over
the next five years he has promised a spending spree of $86
billion. That is money which Canadians will have to work to
produce to funnel into the finance minister's treasure chest so
that he can do all of the things he finds so enjoyable.
I will not go through the list, but almost no program spending
will receive less this year than last year. Even the human
resources department, which has just been found by its own audit
to have bungled at least $1 billion in spending, will get almost
another quarter of a billion dollars to do the same thing. I
have to wonder if there is any prudence or good management left
in the government.
The finance minister not only is continuing to spend, he has
been spending huge amounts. In the next two years he will
increase program spending by $10 billion. The finance minister
tries to tell Canadians that he will give them some of their
money back because he does not need it all. He is taking more
than he needs, so he will give back some of it. However, we find
that is not the case. What he is really doing is using $86
billion of that money, not to pay down our terrible debt, not to
give it back to us so that we can do something for our families;
no, he is going to spend it.
What is the government spending money on and why? What are its
priorities? Over the past number of years we heard that it would
get rid of the GST. That was its priority. That was dropped.
Then we heard that health care was its priority. Then we heard
that children were the priority.
1610
Really, it is very clear, and becoming clearer year by year,
that the real priority of the government is simply to be
re-elected and to use our money in such a way as to persuade us
to keep voting for it.
Let us look at the Liberal record. In 1993 the Liberals came on
the scene, put their hands over their hearts and said that they
would be the saviours of the Canada Health Act. Let us look at
what they did.
In 1996-97 they cut transfers for health care by almost $4
billion; this at a time when health care costs were rising due to
new innovations. Also, our population is aging. What was the
result? Not a stronger health care system, but a weakened one
under the Liberal government. Not only have the Liberals cut
health care, they have not even said that they would maintain any
of the small increases which they finally announced, under much
pressure.
It amuses me to hear Liberals trash premiers like Premier Harris
when they are the authors of the misfortune of the health care
system, which they love to blame on other people.
This year, with this budget, less than $1 billion more will go
to health care. That is less than $30 per Canadian which the
government has dredged up to help a floundering health care
system, which they helped to deadly wound. In spite of the fact
that they will spend $86 billion more over the next five years,
$1 billion next year will go to health care. In fact, this $1
billion will not be dedicated to health care alone, it will be
dedicated to health care and education. The provinces will have
to decide where to spend the money. That inevitably means that
less than $1 billion will be spent on health care, less than $1
billion from a government that has $86 billion more to spend over
the next five years.
The Liberals have cut almost $25 billion out of health and
social cash transfers since they came to power. They put only $5
billion back in the last two years. In other words, for every
dollar they put back they have slashed five, so they have barely
begun to repair the damage they have done, and yet they love to
blame other people and misrepresent other parties' positions on
health care when they are the ones who have given a deadly wound
to this important program for Canadians.
I want to examine the whole area of tax cuts. As hon. members
know, the Liberals have had a great deal to say about the fact
that they would cut taxes. Let us look at what they have
actually done.
The tax cuts were announced at $58 billion. That sounds like a
good, big figure, does it not? Let us look at the facts of this
$58 billion tax cut, which will happen over five years. I point
out that $7.5 billion is actually not a tax cut at all, but an
increase to the child tax benefit, which is really more social
spending. How more social spending equals a tax cut only a
Liberal could explain, but it is definitely not a tax cut because
somebody will have to put that money into the finance minister's
hands so that he can offer it as a top-up to the child tax
benefit. The finance minister has already lost $7.5 billion from
his $58 billion in so-called tax relief.
Then we look at the $30 billion that Canadians will have to pay
over the next five years in increased CPP premiums. Liberals
like to say that this is really an investment in our pension,
that it is not really a tax. However, the fact is that there is
nearly $500 billion worth of debt in the CPP system. That money
will not go to new pensions, it will be put into the finance
minister's hands to pay for pensions which are already being
received.
1615
This is a debt. This is an unfunded liability. This increase
in CPP spending will not benefit solely the people who are
putting the money in. It is going to pay off the debt the
Liberals have run up in our pension system. That is another
$29.5 billion off the so-called $58.5 billion of tax relief.
Then we have a very interesting Liberal sleight of hand which
says “if we were going to tax you but decided not to, that is a
tax cut. It is not less than we are taxing now, but it actually
cancels out some of the taxes we were going to charge”, like
bracket creep, for example.
In fact, $13.5 billion falls into that category. That leaves a
real net tax relief over five years of $7.9 billion. Over each
of those years there is less than a $2 billion relief. For each
taxpayer that amounts to just over $100 a year in real tax relief
or almost $9 a month. Let us have a celebration. Each taxpayer
will get a grand cut from the finance minister of $2 a week. I
hope they do not spend it all in one place.
Since the finance minister took over his portfolio he has raised
the yearly tax bill of Canadians by $104 billion. Those are the
facts. Liberal sleight of hand and Liberal rejigging of the
terminology do not hide the fact that they are not giving a tax
break. The fact of the matter is that by looking at their
paycheques month by month and year by year Canadians will see
there is virtually no change in their tax position in spite of
the grand rhetoric of the finance minister and members opposite.
It is just not there.
I want to spend some time on the control of government spending.
The finance minister will spend $86 billion more over the next
five years. We are very interested as Canadians to see how he
has managed the money so far because now he will be putting even
more out the door.
The record is not reassuring to say the very least. This is
what a recent audit showed on $1 billion worth of spending a
year. In 11% of the cases there was no description of the
expected results of the spending. In other words, the money was
shovelled out the door with no clear idea at all of what it would
achieve. It was just “It is not my money. There is lots where
that came from. Canadians pay lots of taxes. Let us just send
it out the door”.
In 15% of the cases no one had even applied for the money. Maybe
they just went through the yellow pages and said “I think Joe
should have a few dollars of other people's money. Let us cut
him a cheque”. I do not know. There was no application.
In 25% of the cases there was no description of the activities
to be supported. This was supposed to create jobs, but there was
no description of exactly how that would be achieved. I guess it
was on blind faith: if they put money out there it will surely do
some good. It does not sound to me like the kind of management
we would want for our money, but that is what happened.
In 46% of the cases there was no estimate of the number of job
participants. They were to create jobs but they did not have any
idea of how many people would participate in the program.
In 72% of the cases there was no cash flow forecast. We have no
idea what these outfits that are supposed to create jobs are
doing with the money: where they will get it or where they will
spend it. There was no financial plan at all.
In 80% of the cases there was no financial monitoring. In 87%
of the cases there was no evidence of supervision.
Money was just given out with no supervision. We have heard day
after day in the House of how that money has been abused, misused
and ripped off. It is not achieving the results the government
either hoped it would or says it does.
1620
In 97% of the cases there was not even a background check on the
recipients of this money, some of whom we know had very shady and
chequered pasts. This is how our money has been spent in the
past. However it appears to be of no concern to the finance
minister. It did not merit a single line in the budget.
Can we imagine what would happen if a company had come forward
to give its yearly report to the shareholders and there had been
this level of massive mismanagement of the company's money and
not a word in the report about what had happened, what were the
consequences and what would happen to the operation as a result?
There was not a word. They are to spend $86 billion more in the
same way, with the same kind of mismanagement. That is the only
conclusion that can be drawn, and that is a serious concern for
Canadians.
We have a very serious situation in the country. We have a
budget that pretends to give tax relief when, if we really look
at what is being done, the tax relief amounts to less than $2
billion a year for the next five years. At the same time $86
billion in new spending is being shovelled out the door in an
atmosphere and in circumstances where there are serious questions
about the government's management and administration of the money
it already has. It is so bad in fact that there are numerous
instances where the RCMP has had to be called in to get to the
bottom of how public moneys have been mismanaged.
That is what we are facing today in the budget which did not
even address these serious concerns and had fake tax breaks. When
we look at the numbers they are simply not there. They are
either more social spending, or they are offset by increased
taxes for other programs, or they were simply taxes the
government was to impose but thought the better of it. They are
counted as tax cuts when they are nothing of the sort.
These are troubled times for Canadians. I receive e-mails,
letters and phone calls day by day. I know other members do as
well, even members on that side of the House. Canadians are
asking what is going on. They work hard. They pay their taxes.
They trust the government to do the right thing with them, but it
is becoming increasingly obvious that it is incapable and
unworthy of that kind of trust.
I submit that this budget, this finance minister and this
government are not providing the leadership to serve Canadians
well and do not merit the support of the House or of Canadians.
Mr. Roy Cullen (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, one could cover a lot of ground
in commenting and rebutting the speech of the member for
Calgary—Nose Hill. I will not speak about the CHST transfers to
Ontario because I know my colleague from Mississauga South is
champing at the bit to get into that debate.
I will not mention the fact that if Mike Harris in Ontario had
reduced taxes by 25% instead of 30% on the first go-around, he
could have topped up the transfer reductions that went to the
province of Ontario. I will not get into that.
However I will talk about the tax cuts because I think the
member opposite has her facts wrong. Yesterday in the House the
Leader of the Opposition cited the example of Paul and Fran Darr,
a retired couple with an income of $28,000. They were
complaining about the taxes they pay. As I reported to the House
yesterday, Paul and Fran Darr, wherever they are, will save with
this budget 45.2% of their federal income taxes. I could go on
and on with examples.
1625
Let me give the example of a one earner family of four with an
income of $60,000. Its federal income taxes will go down by 24%.
Another example is that a one earner family of four with an
income under $35,000 will receive more in benefits than it pays
in taxes in the year 2004.
I would like the member opposite to contrast this with the flat
tax proposal. I will give two quick examples, with the
indulgence of the House. Under the flat tax proposal, solution
17 as it is called, a single taxpayer earning $30,000 would
receive a tax reduction of 12% while a similar taxpayer earning
$200,000 would receive a tax reduction of 39%. Is that not
interesting?
As another example, a two earner family of four under the flat
tax proposal, solution 17, with an income of $75,000 would get a
reduction of 28% in federal taxes. A similar family with an
income of $200,000 would benefit by 35%.
Could the member for Calgary—Nose Hill contrast the lack of
progressivity in the Reform tax proposal? Would she be prepared
to acknowledge the huge tax savings Canadians will benefit from
with this budget?
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: Mr. Speaker, I could go through the
numbers and Canadians could get their calculators out and do it
for themselves. Perhaps the Liberals may want to do that as
well.
The minister claims over the next five years a $58.4 billion of
tax relief. Subtract from that $7.5 billion, which is actually
not tax relief but spending on the child benefit. Subtract a
further $29.5 billion, which will be increased CPP premiums over
the next five years, most of which, if not all, will go to pay
off the unfunded liability in that program of nearly $500
billion. Subtract from that $13.5 billion, which were scheduled
tax hikes that are now cancelled. It is not a cut of existing
taxes. It is simply an abandonment of untenable proposed taxes.
That gives us a grand total of $7.9 billion in real tax relief
over five years, divided by five equals $1.58 billion. If we
divide that by the number of taxpayers, which I think is about 14
million, we arrive at $107.60 per year per taxpayer in real tax
relief. Those are the facts. If people want to take issue with
those facts they should show us their numbers, but these are
numbers from the budget.
Another point the member raised was the so-called lack of
progressivity in our own tax plan. Our tax plan would provide
real substantial tax relief. I invite people to look at it. We
have laid out the numbers. It is transparent. Everyone can look
at it.
Taking money from people who work hard to earn money is the last
thing we want to do. Productive people assist others. They
create jobs. They are consumers and entrepreneurs. They are the
backbone of the economy. Somehow Liberal members think that the
government creates jobs. I have news for them. It is
productive, hardworking, innovative people who succeed that
create economic activity.
If the Liberal government would only see that, we would have a
country that looked a lot more like Ontario and Alberta than like
some of the other provinces that labour under the
misapprehensions of Liberal social engineering and bad economic
decisions. This is exactly what the budget perpetuates.
Mr. John McKay (Scarborough East, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
thank the hon. member for her HRDC speech. I did not hear too
much about the budget presented on Monday.
I want to take issue with the tax reduction plan she talked
about. If she refers to table 4 of the five year tax reduction
review, therein is laid out $17 billion in annual tax reduction.
It is a combination of both tax cuts and tax relief.
The only tax relief that is in there is $2.5 billion for the
child tax credit. That adds up to $58 billion. I therefore do
not understand the hon. member's concern about tax cuts because
the tax cuts are there. That does not include the EI cuts
projected over the next five years.
1630
The numbers the hon. member is putting forward are not
realistic. It is in fact $17 billion worth of tax relief. It is
in fact a five year tax reduction plan. I do not understand the
thrust of the hon. member's speech. I also do not understand the
thrust of the hon. member's selective failure to remember the EI
cuts as well.
It seems to me that the hon. member and her party are somewhat
against Santa Claus and Christmas at the same time.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: Mr. Speaker, I guess I do not expect
a Liberal member to accept those numbers.
I invite Canadians to examine the Liberal numbers and the
numbers I put forward and make their own judgment. At the end of
the day it is not the hon. member's money and it not my money. It
is not even the money of any party in the House. It is
Canadians' money and they have a right to have a very clear and
thoughtful analysis of the real numbers they have to work with.
Canadians may accept the Liberal numbers, which I am sure the
Liberals will defend to the death. They may accept the numbers
that we put forward because they are the result of a thoughtful
and careful analysis. I am simply putting them out in debate
because at the end of the day we are only leading the debate.
Canadians will have to make the decision on whether their
interests have been well-served by the budget and by the
government or whether there are other factors which the
opposition is bound in duty to bring out that would lead to far
different conclusions than what the government would like to urge
on them.
We know the government will put the best face on its budget. Why
would it not? It spends a lot of time and effort writing a
budget that sounds like we are getting the best thing since
sliced bread. All the opposition is saying, in as credible,
thoughtful and sustainable a way as possible, is that there are
other factors and other ways to characterize this that need to be
taken into account. At the end of the day I invite Canadians to
make their own decision.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on
the Canada pension plan, the hon. member will probably know that
it was enacted in 1966 so that those people who came through the
depression without a working career and unable to provide for
retirement, as Canadians do today, would immediately get
benefits. Today's workers pay for the pensioners because the
pension was always in arrears. The deficit and the unfunded
liability were not because of mismanagement. They were because
we took care of people who did not have anything for their
retirements.
Today's retirees get $8 out for every $1 they put in. To
sustain that level of equality of pension plan for all Canadians,
changes were necessary. This is exactly what the provinces,
together with the federal government, came out with after
consulting with all Canadians.
With every dollar that goes in, taxpayers will get it out and
more when they retire. Her analysis—
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member for Calgary—Nose
Hill.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: Mr. Speaker, if I can say so kindly,
that really is a half truth. It is correct that there were a few
people when the plan was put into place who had not been able to
save for retirement. However, in addition to that, governments
habitually and for a long period of time charged much less for
this program than it cost. Since the hon. member sat on the
committee he knows very well that people did not put in even
enough to pay for their own pensions until very recently.
Younger Canadians are now being socked with that 30 years of
mistake. They will to have to put a lot of money into the plan.
They will get very little out in relation to their investment and
that is what the hon. member has not said. This is a debate for
another day, but I would simply say that the hon. member knows
better than what he was just saying.
1635
Mr. John McKay (Scarborough East, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
will be splitting my time with the member for Niagara Falls.
I will begin by apologizing to the finance minister. I have,
privately and publicly, described him as a tax cutting wimp. I
thought that was an accurate description as far as previous
budgets, but I am wrong. Quite clearly this budget is an
aggressive run at tax issues that have been on the agenda for
years and years and years.
Publicly, I would like to apologize to the finance minister
because he has proved me to be wrong.
As I listened to the budget speech, I was absolutely stunned at
the breadth and magnitude of the finance minister's commitment to
tax cuts. Frankly, I had trouble believing that the finance
minister reindexed the entire system and killed off bracket
creep. This is enormous. This is the most important event in
the entire budget process in the last seven years, second only to
this government getting serious about eliminating the deficit.
Members of our caucus, members of the Standing Committee of
Finance and others have talked repeatedly about the stealth tax
that occurs in the indexation of the system and that nasty little
surprise Canadians get when they get a modest raise which jumps
them into a new bracket.
Many of us know that bracket creep was probably the most
significant inequity in the tax system. On the first occasion in
which the finance minister could meaningfully address this issue,
he made it the centrepiece of his budget.
For those of us who have laboured long and hard in this area, it
is indeed most gratifying. I would especially like to thank and
acknowledge the work of the member for Durham who has spoken
about this issue repeatedly over the past five years both in and
out of caucus, and has spoken about it even when others were not
speaking about this issue.
The good news does not stop there. The Minister of Finance also
took the opportunity to raise the threshold to $8,000. The last
time he raised the threshold we were given to understand that
something in excess of 400,000 Canadians were taken off the tax
rolls. I expect this will do the same thing.
Simultaneously, he raised the middle threshold from $29,000 to
$35,000, and the top threshold from $59,000 to $70,000, while
dropping the middle rates two points, from 26% to 24% effective
July 1 of this year, and an additional point later on in the five
year plan. I know this is a significant cost to the treasury and
that it takes enormous courage on the part of a minister of
finance to take these steps. Any one of these steps would be a
significant reform to the income tax system. Cumulatively it is
enormous.
However, it does not end there. He also mounted an attack on
the 5% surtax after having completely eliminated the 3% surtax
last year. As of July 1, the 5% surtax will be completely
eliminated on incomes up to $85,000 and phased out on incomes
over $85,000. Taken individually, these changes to the system of
personal taxation would be significant but collectively they are
enormous. I am sure that over time Canadians will start to
realize that what they witnessed on Monday night was a radical
remaking of the personal tax system in the country.
However, the minister did not limit himself to changes to the
personal tax system but he also started the process of business
tax reform. When we start talking about business tax reform we
usually start to hear a gagging sound on the left. The rhetoric
starts getting cranked up about rewarding rich business cronies
on Bay Street, et cetera. The rhetoric gets a little childish at
times and what gets lost is the simple truth that all businesses,
be they large or small, must be successful. If a business is not
competitive it will not survive. If that business does not
survive it will have no employees.
I have never understood why the left wants to hobble business.
It is like a gag reaction to any person who is successful or to
any business that is successful.
We seem to be compelled, it is almost in our culture, to bring
Canadian business down to mediocrity. Canadians seem to like to
reach for the bronze medal but leave the rest of the medals to
everybody else.
1640
I was therefore pleased to see that the Minister of Finance
start to lower the tax rate on the high tech sector by 25% over
the next five years. Regardless of what others say, this was
absolutely necessary. High tech, by definition, is virtually
borderless and can vacate a jurisdiction in a flash. Unless the
tax environment is competitive—and here one might just as well
read U.S. rates—business will move there unless there is some
other reason to keep it here. We therefore have the strange
anomaly of having fostered these businesses by bringing in our
best educated people, providing the business environment with a
good start up environment and providing research money and then,
when it gets successful, it moves to California. It is the worst
of all possible worlds.
I am not arguing that the magic of changes to a tax environment
is the panacea to high tech business, or any other business for
that matter, in terms of vacating the jurisdiction, but lowering
the high tech rates generally and on small business immediately
is the right thing to do.
It is clear that some of our most talented people leave for
opportunities in other jurisdictions. It is my opinion that the
tax environment does not drive them out of Canada rather it is
factors such as career opportunities and research and development
opportunities. However, the tax environment is still a factor of
some significance and I believe that the Government of Canada
made a significant step in the right direction.
The so-called brain drain is of concern to us all. I will point
members in the direction of some information I came across
recently. It was put forward by graduates who moved to the
United States. It is a rank and class of graduates who moved to
the United States for work related reasons. For those who moved,
42% of those graduates were in the top 10% of their classes and
39% were in the top 25% of their class. That cannot continue. We
simply cannot survive in a modern industrialized economy if that
continues to happen.
The tax environment is not the be all and end all of the brain
drain. However, lowering the capital gains taxes so that the
inclusion rate is now at 66% rather than 75% is a step in the
right direction.
Postponing taxation on stock options to when the shares are sold
rather than when the options are exercised is a step in the right
direction. Increasing the amount investors can put into new
investments by allowing a $500,000 tax rollover for qualified
investments is a step in the right direction. These are
significant in and of themselves but cumulatively these are
extremely significant.
This is the best budget in 25 years. This is a taxpayers'
budget. This is a budget that addresses the fiscal reality in an
even-handed way. This budget is good for business. This is
great for personal tax filers. I would urge hon. members to
support the passage of this budget.
Mr. Reed Elley (Nanaimo—Cowichan, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
must say that I would have been greatly surprised if the hon.
member had stood to publicly denounce the Minister of Finance's
budget. That would have been really something to hear.
However, there are two issues I would like to talk about briefly
and ask the hon. member a couple of questions relating to them.
One of course is the issue of bracket creep.
I hear hon. members across the way taking some kind of credit
for the elimination of bracket creep. How many years has the
government had to eliminate this? I do not think it has had as
much to do with the government's decision on this as it has to do
with the people like the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.
The Reform Party of Canada has had the elimination of bracket
creep as a major policy principle for the last five years.
We have been asking the government to do this for at least five
years, and more than that outside of the House. My first
question to the hon. member is why in the world did it take the
government so long to eliminate this when it knew it was bad for
Canadian taxpayers?
1645
Second is the matter of health care spending. I am sure the
hon. member faces the same kind of problems that I do in my
riding with a deteriorating health care system which is
inadequately funded. The major culprit is the federal government
and its plan over the last few years to gut the health care
system by cutting back on health transfers to the provinces.
Over the last five or six years it has taken out somewhere in
excess of $20.5 billion. Now it is telling us that out of the
goodness of its heart in this age of surplus it is going to put
back in maybe $14 billion over the next few years. With the kind
of mathematics I grew up with, this leaves us with a shortfall of
$6 billion.
Does the hon. member believe that $2.5 billion, $1 billion this
year, about $30 per Canadian, is going to fix Canada's health
care system? Does he really think that is an adequate response
to the deterioration of health care in this country? I would be
very happy to hear his responses to these questions.
Mr. John McKay: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is right.
Under no circumstances would I denounce the finance minister in
the giving of this speech. Maybe the member should have read my
speech from last year when I was somewhat critical of the budget.
As the hon. member well knows, I am not above criticizing when
criticizing is appropriate on this side of the House.
Having said that, there is nothing more pathetic than a question
that asks who should take credit on the issue of bracket creep.
The issue of bracket creep has been around since it was
introduced by previous governments. In fact, this is the first
occasion that we could meaningfully address bracket creep because
this is the first occasion that we have had a meaningful surplus.
For the hon. member's information, he should note that bracket
creep plus the upping of the basic threshold to $8,000 is going
to cost the government slightly less than $3 billion on an annual
basis. Simple math tells us that this was the first and only
occasion the minister could have addressed that issue. That is
the first answer to the hon. member's questions. The essential
issue is that we have had deficits for a long time, unless the
hon. member has missed this. This is the first meaningful
surplus we have had.
On the issue of health care, if the hon. member will recall, the
budget last year was in some respects the health care budget in
which $3.5 billion was put into the health care system and
directly into the hands of the health care ministers. It meant a
significant sum of money in Ontario. Forty per cent of $3.5
billion is a significant sum of money. In addition, on the cap
on CAP, the province of Ontario received a further $1 billion, a
significant sum of money. Does the member know how much money
has hit the ground in my riding? Zero. Precisely nothing.
There is this huge whine from the other premiers saying “Give
us more money”. What did they do with the last bit of money?
Nothing.
Mr. Gary Pillitteri (Niagara Falls, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
am pleased to speak in the debate on the budget. We are on the
right track. Thanks to the efforts of Canadians, Canada has
entered a new era, that of surpluses.
All Canadians, especially families with children, in all regions
of the country will benefit from a budget that takes us to the
future with an education system second to none, secure social
programs and a five year plan of tax reduction.
1650
With each budget I and many fellow Canadians have seen deficit
spending being eliminated, progress being made by paying down the
debt, our economy flourishing and the rate of unemployment
declining at a faster rate than we had anticipated. The
unemployment rate is now at its lowest level in 24 years. We
must be doing something right.
In the budget speech the government made important announcements
that will translate into a better quality of life for all. While
we continue to follow a prudent and transparent approach to
budget planning, with this budget we have delivered important
investments in health care, in knowledge and innovation, in
families with children and in the environment.
Since 1993 when I was first elected to serve my constituents of
Niagara Falls in the House of Commons, the Standing Committee on
Finance has consulted with Canadians from all walks of life and
acted on their views and priorities year after year. In fact, I
am delighted to see that many of the recommendations made by way
of written submissions to a questionnaire sent to a great number
of my constituents or by oral presentations to town hall meetings
saw implementation in previous budgets.
The reviews from the riding on budget 2000 are more than
positive. One of the headlines was “Niagarans are encouraged by
this budget”.
I am proud to see that this budget as others before it is
focused mainly on the welfare of our children, of our families,
of our communities and of our environment.
The budget took into consideration evidence which suggests that
the early years are vital for child development and their future
ability to learn. It is only natural for parents to want their
children to have the best and healthiest possible start in life.
As a result of budget 2000, families with children will see an
increase in the Canada child tax benefit thanks to a boost of
$2.5 billion. This means that families now receiving the Canada
child tax benefit will receive more generous payments. More
middle income families will qualify for this benefit.
The government's objective is to raise the maximum benefit to
$2,400 for a family's first child by the year 2004. The benefit
for a second child will also be raised to $2,200. This means
that over the next four years low income Canadian families will
receive $6 billion, while modest and middle income families will
receive $3 billion.
These benefits as well as personal income taxes will be fully
indexed so that family incomes will not be eroded by inflation.
In all, the Canada child tax benefit will help nine out of ten
Canadian children, or about 3.8 million families.
Budget 2000 puts forward the five year tax reduction plan that
benefits all Canadians and families with children in particular.
It is a plan that will put more money into the pockets of
Canadians.
Our plan is secured by two fundamental changes. First, we are
restoring full indexation of the personal income tax system.
Second, for the first time in 12 years the middle rate will fall
from 26% to 23%. This budget shows that it is possible to cut
taxes and invest in the future at the same time. With this plan
the government is providing real and lasting tax relief.
Tax indexation is not a new idea. Tax indexation was introduced
by a Liberal government. It was later cancelled by a Tory
government under Brian Mulroney, the same government which left
us with a huge deficit which was eliminated not only by the good
planning of this government but also by sacrifices made by all
Canadians.
With indexation the automatic tax increases caused by the
so-called bracket creep will disappear. This will benefit a great
number of Canadian taxpayers.
This means that the federal benefits such as the Canada child tax
benefit and GST credit will no longer be eroded by inflation.
1655
Indexation also means protection against inflation for seniors.
While public pension benefits under the Canada pension plan, old
age security and guaranteed income supplement are already fully
indexed to inflation, the GST credit, the age credit and the OAS
reduction threshold are not.
Canadian business will also benefit from tax cuts. This will in
turn encourage innovation and investment and put all sectors of
our economy on an internationally competitive footing. As a first
step the government is lowering the tax rate paid by higher taxed
industry mostly in the high tech and service sector from 28% to
21%.
Overall, budget 2000 provides at least $58 billion in cumulative
tax relief to Canadians over the next five years. We are cutting
personal income taxes by an average of 15%. Many will enjoy
bigger cuts. Low and middle income Canadians will see their
taxes fall by at least 18% and families with children will see
their taxes on average fall by 21%.
By leaving more money in the pockets of Canadians we will see
our economy flourish. In turn the government will receive more
revenue. It will then be able to reduce taxes paid by Canadians
even more. This will go on and on. The government will then be
able to maintain funding for social services such as education,
health and important infrastructures.
There are other important measures of this budget, for example
the assistance that will be provided to Canadians with
disabilities. By building on previous budget measures the federal
government will extend support and implement tax initiatives to
expand opportunities for persons with disabilities. It will help
them and their families deal with the medical and care related
costs.
Clean air, water and healthy habitats are essential to a higher
quality of life. Understanding that our economy and our
environment are closely linked is also part of the comprehensive
strategy. Budget 2000 commits some $700 million in funding
between 1999-2000 and 2002-03 toward the development of new
technologies and tools that will meet our Canadian environmental
challenges.
This initiative will be well received in my riding of Niagara
Falls. Many of my constituents dedicate much of their time and
energy to maintain and better our environment, to preserve and
protect species indigenous to our area and the many spectacular
natural beauties enjoyed not only by Canadians but by so many
visitors to our area.
We are aware that our economy, especially the economy of the
21st century, requires the proper physical infrastructure. The
budget proposes to work out a multi-year agreement with the
provinces and the private sector to improve highways and
municipal infrastructure. This will include green infrastructure
and affordable housing in urban and rural communities across
Canada.
My riding is a so-called border riding. As such it will benefit
from the action taken in the budget to strengthen and control our
borders.
The Canada Customs and Revenue Agency will receive incremental
funding to modernize our border management process. This will
allow the agency to devote more resources to enforcement
activities that are most crucial to protect Canadian borders.
Citizenship and Immigration Canada and the RCMP will also be
receiving incremental funding and in this way will better ensure
the safety of not only our borders but also of all Canadians.
Budget 2000 shows us that it is indeed possible to cut taxes and
invest in the future at the same time.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I am afraid that the
time is over.
1700
[Translation]
Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): Madam Speaker, I
have a question for my eminent colleague, who is a major wine
producer. But I will not mince my words.
What does he think of the following facts, given the credibility
of the Minister of Finance, for whom he says he speaks?
Barely two and a half months ago, the Minister of Finance
presented forecasts in his economic statement. At that time, he
told us that the surplus for 1999-2000, that is the period ending
March 31 of this year, would be $5 billion.
Two and a half months later, he brings down his budget and, big
surprise, the Minister of Finance—the same one, unless it was his
brother or a clone, but they look very similar—is talking about a
$7.5 billion surplus, a $2.5 billion increase in two and a half
months. What a strange coincidence: $2.5 billion and two and a
half months—2.5 and 2.5. His forecast changed by 21% in two and
a half months; this is a serious problem.
In addition, the very day the budget was brought down, there was
a copy of The Fiscal Monitor, a publication put out by his
department, in the lock-up room. In the third point of the
second column on page two, it says that for the first nine
months of this fiscal—in other words, the first three quarters—the
surplus was $10.9 billion.
It was $5 billion two and a half months ago, $7.5 billion in the
budget and $10.9 billion for the first three quarters of
1999-2000.
Yesterday I opened the newspaper and saw another discrepancy in
the minister's forecasts. This morning, he said that the tax
cuts, the Canada social transfer that he forecast in his budget
could change, because he had taken a very pessimistic approach,
and that we were not to worry, that the figures would change.
I look at this: a forecasting error of 21% in two and a half
months, of 65% the same day—according to The Fiscal Monitor on
budget day—, and, tomorrow, discrepancies of perhaps 70% between
what he brought down in the budget and what he will actually do.
What sort of credibility does the Minister of Finance have? How
can we view the budget brought down barely two days ago as a
solid foundation? How does he explain his about-face and his
election-minded fancy footwork in response to opposition to his
budget?
[English]
Mr. Gary Pillitteri: Madam Speaker, I thank the member
for his question. For years the hon. member and I have sat on
the finance committee across from many economists. We have
heard, especially in the last two years, growth estimates of 2%,
2.5% and 3%. He knows very well that we constantly get different
readings on how much our economy is to grow. In the last year
the estimate was about a 3% growth in the economy, but in the
last couple of months we know it is over 3.5% and growing even
more.
The member knows quite well, especially in the last couple of
months with the growth in the economy, that it was possible for
the finance minister to make those adjustments and give the
benefits back to Canadians.
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I
suggest to all Canadians that in the meantime they do not buy
more than one cup of coffee extra a week. It does not look too
promising.
The member did not mention in his speech anything about the farm
crisis and long term solutions that might be in the budget. I
wonder if they are there. He never mentioned anything in his
speech about the poverty that has been recognized by the United
Nations on Indian reserves across the land, third world
conditions on Indian reserves. There has been nothing mentioned
in the budget speech or by anyone else about what the government
will do about that.
What about wasteful spending? Does the member condone wasteful
spending like on the filming of Bubbles Galore, committees
on seniors and sexuality, the hanging of dead rabbits and all
such nonsense which amounts to millions and millions of dollars?
That member laughs because he thinks it is funny and great. Only
a Liberal would laugh at anything that stupid. I wonder if he
would like to respond.
1705
Mr. Gary Pillitteri: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon.
member for his remarks. We have different beliefs and opposing
views. They say that the flat tax is the salvation of all, a
better tax. It reminds me of a serial I used to watch on
television called The Flintstones. With a flat tax,
nothing moves, nothing is progressive.
I want Canadians to understand that Canada is a great country to
live in. We as the Liberal government made it a better place to
live in. When we get up in the morning we think it is a bright
day. When members on the other side get up in the morning they
think it is a real rainy day.
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Madam Speaker, I
will share my time with the hon. member for Lotbinière, but it
does not mean that all Bloc members will do the same.
Needless to say that I am disappointed, because there is an
important flaw with respect to health care. If this government
is really concerned about social justice and the future of
Quebecers and Canadians, we would have expected it to have
realized that the editorial writers, who represent an important
segment of our society, are unanimously asking the federal
government to increase transfer payments, and health transfers
in particular, so that those who work on the front line, that is
the provinces, can meet the particular needs of their citizens.
This is contemptuous and ridiculous. Even in our wildest dreams,
we could never have imagined that a government could be so
insensitive to public needs.
How can the government table such a budget when a month ago, not
far from here, in the Hull region, all the provincial premiers,
whether Tory or NDP, masterfully led by the Premier of Quebec
who, as you know, runs a fair government for the people of
Quebec, were saying “Funds have to be released to the provinces
for health purposes”.
It was estimated that some $4.2 billion were required. The
Premier of Quebec said that, of this amount, $1 billion should go
to Quebec, with $500 million going to health and $500 million to
income security and education.
I will get a chance to come back to this, but the time is coming
when it will be important for all Bloc Quebecois members and all
other members in the House to come to grips with the structural
pressures in the health system that make new investments in
health care now imperative, or the future looks grim.
Let it be perfectly clear. The Quebec government has done
everything it could with the resources at its command. I ask my
hon. colleague and chairman of the health committee to pay
attention to this. We will keep introducing motions for the
committee to visit places where people actually experience
problems in order to put maximum pressure on this very
unresponsive government.
The health minister, Mrs. Marois, is always very well informed
of what is going on in the system, and she knows what Quebecers
want.
Jean Charest himself said the same thing in the National
Assembly: the first priority of Quebecers is their health care
system.
The natural increase in health care expenses is 5%. That means
$500 million.
1710
If we calculate the part the Quebec government will receive from
that miserable, shameful, insufficient and ridiculous $2.5
billion spread over four years, we arrive at $70 million a year.
This is absolutely outrageous, and it is why Pauline Marois said
that it will not even pay for the operation of the health system
for three days of this week.
What will we do in Quebec with the $500 million, the figure the
Prime Minister talked about, at the first ministers' conference
in Hull, for health care alone—$1 billion in total, $500 million
for health?
I will give a few specific examples, especially for the benefit
of the members opposite.
I know I can count on my colleagues from Longueuil, Portneuf
and, of course, on the talented and learned member from
Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, who has been working on this issue for
seven years. What would we do with $500 million? This is about a
quarter of the operating budget of Montreal's hospitals; half of
the budget for all the CLSCs.
Allow me to digress for a moment, to say that people from almost
everywhere in America come to Quebec to find out how unique the
CLSCs are, because such local community social service centres
do not exist elsewhere, that is, a front line service, in some
cases open 24 hours a day, at least to provide information by
phone on emergency matters, and a front line network totally
dedicated to people in key areas like seniors health and
children's health from birth to adulthood and community groups
as well. So, from almost everywhere in North America—I refrain
from saying “the world”, because it could be a tiny bit
pretentious—people come to find what CLSCs, which are unique to
Quebec, are about.
As for the $500 million we are out by—annually, that is—it
represents nearly half the budget for the whole CLSC network. It
is the equivalent of the budget allocated to home support.
It is well known—and I address this issue in a moment—that one of
the structural pressures in the health care system is the fact
that never before in the history of mankind have people lived so
long. Not only do they live longer but some—not everyone of
course, understandably—remain in good health longer. That is why
old age is no longer synonymous with golden age, it actually
comes after. Chances are excellent for all members in this
House—that is at least my wish for everyone here—to get to old
age.
Imagine the sharp mind of the Minister for International Trade
at 80. I cannot think of him as one who would knit or play
cards. I imagine him as alert and—a little like yourself, Madam
Speaker—playing golf.
For that to happen, it is important that the federal government
transfer the money it owes the province. In light of the extent
of the cuts it imposed unilaterally, this is hardly a handout.
Allow me to digress again. Is there someone in this House who
will dare rise and say that $45 billion worth of cuts, which will
be lowered to $33 billion by 2003, is an act of co-operative
federalism? Did the premiers ever meet and discuss all this?
This is beside the point, and I hope my friend the international
trade minister will agree with me that to unilaterally impose
cuts of this magnitude is not co-operative federalism.
I now come back this structural pressure on our health care
system from our fellow citizens living longer and longer, which
means that we will need extremely efficient home support
services. We do not want people to be institutionalized longer
than they have to; we want them to be cared for in their natural
community, by their natural caregivers. But we are short
$500 million.
1715
Home support is important. I believe the government must realize
this is a provincial responsibility first and foremost. It is
out of the question for us to accept that the health minister
establish a new shared cost program.
Imagine the paradox if we were to accept, as parliamentarians, a
new joint program for home care when the federal government
cannot even manage to give us all the transfer payment money we
are entitled to.
I will get back to this later. I know I can trust you, Madam
Speaker, to give the floor to my fiery colleague from
Lotbinière.
[English]
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I listened with great interest to the member opposite.
He had quite a few things to say which pertained to health care
in this great country of ours.
I want to note, though, that in the year 2000-01 the cash and
tax point transfers for health will be $31 billion. That is an
all time high. I invite the hon. member, who is quite well
versed in issues of health, to recheck the facts, recheck the
budget documents, and take a look at exactly and precisely the
kind of money that not only other provinces will be getting but
Quebec as well. Perhaps he could then advise Madam Marois of the
good things that the federal government is doing in this very
important area.
He should encourage the health minister for Quebec to come to
the main meeting with the Minister of Health at the federal level
and his provincial counterparts to see what can be done over the
long term. The finance minister's budget has ensured that there
will be a short term injection of money into the all-important
health care system, but the main meeting will be crucial in terms
of getting together provincial and territorial partners to ensure
that a final, solid and long term solution is found.
I invite the hon. member, who I know has great influence in many
areas, to do precisely that and to make sure that the health
minister for Quebec is at the table and contributes in a very
positive and meaningful way for a change.
Does the hon. member support the Reform Party's flat tax policy?
Does he support what the Reform Party is up to in terms of this
17% nonsense? I would like to hear the hon. member's opinion.
After all, it is the Reform Party which, in its platform, would
have gutted health care, social programs, pensions and all the
things which we have put in place for Canadians. Do not take my
word for it. Check the Reform Party platform. If we check its
new fresh start program we will see the kind of nonsense for
which the Reform Party opposite stands. It is outrageous.
Mr. Ken Epp: Not true. You are such a liar. You are
just plain and simple lying.
Mr. Lynn Myers: The question I have for the hon. member
is quite simple. Does he, with his social conscience which is
really quite attuned, support the flat tax concept? I would be
very interested in that.
Listen to the hon. member opposite, the Reformer, calling me a
liar. He should watch himself. He should go back to—
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The hon. member for
Hochelaga—Maisonneuve.
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard: Madam Speaker, I know we can always count on
your efficient leadership to prevent fights and brawls in this
House.
However, I warn my colleague against any attempt to divert the
debate. We will find another venue to discuss the Reform Party
fiscal policy, which we do not adhere to naturally.
I do not want to underestimate my colleague's influence, which
is equal only to his kindness, so I ask him to become a voice
within his party and to wake up the members of cabinet, whose
lethargy is creating an injustice.
I want the member and all the other members who believe in
social justice to assert clearly, as I do myself, that social
justice starts with health and that the provinces cannot
properly provide the services they should be giving to their
citizens if this government does not restore the transfers it
has cut unilaterally, without notice, off-handedly and with
complete disregard for jurisdictions.
I ask my colleague to engage in this campaign with me; together
we will succeed.
1720
Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière, BQ): Madam Speaker, the famous
and long-awaited federal budget was tabled Monday.
This budget is characterized by two things: timing and electoral
opportunism. As a consequence, there is nothing for the
unemployed. The municipalities will have to wait for the
election goodies. There is almost nothing for social housing,
and Quebec will have a $4.3 billion shortfall in transfers for
social programs.
And the list goes on and on: nothing for regional development;
next to nothing for rural communities, and my friend Jacques
Proulx of Solidarité rurale was profoundly disappointed by this;
and agriculture was, once again, completely forgotten.
Indeed, the president of the UPA, Laurent Pellerin, did not hide
his disappointment. His remarks reflected perfectly well the
opinion of farmers in my riding and throughout Quebec when he
said “With its surpluses, the federal government could have
reinvested in our farming industry, support for which has
dropped by half over the last eight years. The UPA is asking
that the federal government take long term restructuring
measures to ensure that Quebec's farming industry can remain
competitive globally”.
I would like to draw attention to the following statistics: OECD
figures show that the EU and the United States are supporting
their industry to the tune of $381 and $363 per capita,
respectively, as compared to only $140 in Canada.
Let us talk about EI now.
With the current surpluses, the federal government could have
helped the unemployed. There is nothing in the budget on that.
The government wants to reduce the premiums by the year 2004,
again trying to misappropriate funds at the expense of the
middle class and to exclude 60% of the unemployed from the plan.
In my riding of Lotbinière, there are still two regional rates.
The gap between the RCM of L'Érable and that of Lotbinière is
continuing to grow by 5%. And the workers living the RCM of
Lotbinière are hard hit. As usual, the federal government is
doing nothing while the people are getting poorer because of
this unfair system.
Let us now have a look at the regional development that was
supposed to result from the restoration of the Infrastructure
Works Program for municipalities.
Guess what? We are going to have to wait until the year 2001.
Wait for what? For a meagre $100 million, $25 million of which
will go to Quebec. As for the rest, the amounts budgeted will
increase only in the years 2002 and 2003. This opportunistic
decision essentially motivated by electoral considerations will
penalize our regions.
My colleague just spoke at length about the health care issue. I
will mention other statistics which, I hope, will help the
Liberal MPs see the light.
Only $2.5 billion in additional funding will be given over four
years. Consequently, with the reform announced in 1999, which
now bases the transfers to the provinces on geographical
considerations rather than on real costs, in 1994, the federal
per capita contribution for health care and education amounted
to $1,100. It will be $1,026 for this year, and $1,038 for the
next two years. What an increase! And the MPs from Quebec have
the nerve to say that the government is increasing the
transfers.
1725
They are laughing at the sick, the young and the poor. They are
showing lack of respect for the people of Quebec.
I would now like to tell you about what I call the “greening” of
the finance minister. Listen to the political and partisan
announcements made this week: a sustainable development
technological support fund, a Canadian foundation for climatic
and atmospheric sciences, a green municipal investment fund and
so on, $15 million for the decontamination of the Great Lakes,
but not a single penny for the St. Lawrence River. Again, Ontario
is favoured over Quebec.
Let us talk about tax relief.
Tuesday morning, the daily Le Soleil ran the headline
“Taxpayers, be Patient”.
I have here numbers that show how ridiculously small the federal
tax relief is. A single person earning $30,000 will get a big
relief of $64 in 2000 and a tidy $128 in 2001. A family of four
earning $40,000 will get $291 in 2000 and $582 in 2001.
The needs are a lot bigger than that and the government had the
leeway to make a real budget that would have given taxpayers a
break and given more time to boost the economy.
Here are more numbers.
Two adults and two children with two incomes totalling $50,000
will be entitled to a reduction of $172 in 2000 and $343 in
2001; where the two incomes total $60,000, the reduction will be
$251 in 2000, and $501 in 2001.
How can you expect us to take this government seriously when the
majority of newspapers announced on their front pages big news
items like lower taxes, family benefits and so on? This is the
trademark of federal Liberals. The day after the budget, we read
the press releases; journalists publish what they have heard,
but when we take a closer look at the budget, it is over. We do
not hear anything about it any more.
This budget is so interesting that opposition members do not
even rise in the House to ask questions.
As far as we are concerned, the Minister of Finance missed the
boat. He tried once again, through all sorts of schemes, to show
that he is a good finance minister. But, when you think of it,
there is nothing for the 1999 tax return. There is hardly
anything for 2000, and we know what to expect for 2001. We know
that an election campaign is looming on the horizon.
These people are very partisan and they often take advantage of
elections. I do not have to remind my colleagues of all we have
been hearing recently about the Department of Human Resources
Development. There are many reasons to condemn this government.
I will conclude by discussing the situation of social housing.
This is an issue that upsets me even more. We are lagging
behind. We were expecting $1.7 billion from the federal
government this year. This would have meant about $380 million
for Quebec.
Imagine, we got a measly $58 million. This morning, newspapers
all over Quebec were denouncing this lack of funding, because it
does not meet current needs in any real way.
As the critic for regional development, I have to say this is a
very important issue. We need social housing. There is a lot of
catching up to do.
1730
As I said at the beginning of my speech, the federal government
is waiting. While it is waiting, it is engaged in political and
electoral opportunism. In the meantime, who is suffering? The
unemployed, the students, and the sick are.
I conclude by repeating that this budget is a typical
pre-election budget, which means there is nothing for the
unemployed, no significant tax relief this year, a pittance for
social housing and, finally, a categorical refusal by this
government to make the necessary payments to ensure adequate
health care in Quebec.
Mr. Roy Cullen (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Finance,
Lib.): Madam Speaker, I would like to comment on the Bloc
member's remarks. I think he did not read this budget, the
federal government's budget for 2000-01. Perhaps he read the
Quebec budget or some other budget.
Let me quote him some figures relating to transfer payments to
Quebec. Over the five years of the budget plan, Quebec will
receive $59 billion.
[English]
That is $59 billion over the five years of the budget plan.
In 2000-01 the transfers to Quebec will exceed $11.5 billion.
They will account for about 25% of the province of Quebec's
estimated revenues. They are expected to be about $1,566 per
person. That is about 18% above the national average.
Perhaps the member opposite would read the budget. He would
discover that there is $59 billion that will go to Quebec over
the next five years. In fact the province of Quebec receives
almost $5 billion in equalization payments. Quebec receives that
because it is a poor province. I have said in the House before
that there is a reason it is a poor province.
[Translation]
It is because of the policies of the Parti Quebecois and the
policies of the Bloc Quebecois. That is the reason.
[English]
Regarding taxes, let me give a few examples because I think the
member opposite simply has not read the budget.
Low income Canadians who pay about 1% of the net taxes collected
by the Government of Canada will receive almost 40% of the tax
reduction flowing from indexation. For example, a one earner
family of four with an income of under $35,000 will receive more
in benefits than it pays in the year 2004. A one earner family
of four with an income of $60,000 will see its taxes go down by
24% in the year 2004.
I am wondering if the Bloc member opposite read the federal
budget for 2000. Did he read it?
[Translation]
Mr. Odina Desrochers: Madam Speaker, I have read the budget, and
I can even tell my hon. colleague the Parliamentary Secretary to
the Minister of Finance that I took part in the lock-up.
Therefore, I was shocked before everybody else to see that this
budget contained absolutely nothing.
The member opposite is forgetting one thing: all these numbers
he is throwing around—he is like the finance minister, he is
quoting so many different numbers, it is tough to follow; what
he is saying is always somewhat obscure; the numbers have
already changed over the past two days—are for five years.
I said at the beginning of my speech that this government is
suffering from a serious case of procrastination; it is totally
unable to make a decision in the year 2000, it has to wait until
2001, 2002, 2003, 2004.
As I was reading the budget, I realized that, by acting in an
opportunistic and election-minded way, the government was
penalizing the Quebec people as a whole. They will get what is
coming to them, we will kick them out once again during the next
election.
1735
[English]
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Madam Speaker, the
member for Etobicoke North in his question to the Bloc member
talked about the Bloc member not reading the budget. It is clear
that the member for Etobicoke North did not read the budget. Had
he read the budget he would know that the average Canadian family
will still pay $700 more in taxes after five years when these tax
cuts kick in than they did when the government took office. That
is a fact, the $83 billion in increased spending. For my
family, my wife and I and our five children, the government
will spend $20,000 more of my family's money that we pay out in
tax. That is unacceptable.
My question for the Bloc member is on agriculture spending. I
would like him to comment on the fact that $240 million of
federal money will go to farmers in Saskatchewan and Manitoba and
none will go to any other province.
[Translation]
Mr. Odina Desrochers: Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague, the
hon. member for Lakeland, for his question.
I said in my speech that agriculture has been forgotten in this
budget. This is the case for the whole of eastern Canada. I am
scandalized when I see that the bulk of Liberal MPs comes from
Ontario and that they are unable to stand up for eastern
farmers.
Fortunately, in Quebec we have the Bloc Quebecois to defend
Quebec farmers.
[English]
Mrs. Karen Redman (Kitchener Centre, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for
Guelph—Wellington.
I am pleased to speak to the federal budget that was tabled
earlier this week. It is essentially a Canadian document. It is
not radical; it is measured, it is well paced. It is irrefutably
a strong pro-growth document.
This budget represents a long term strategy. The intention is
not to create a boom tomorrow but it will provide sustained
benefits for Canadians well into the future. I am pleased that
the Minister of Finance has once again provided us with
leadership, strategic thinking and prudent investment.
When the government was first elected in 1993 this nation had a
$42 billion deficit and an unemployment rate of 11.5%. Canadians
elected us because they wanted leadership, strategy and action.
We have met that commitment and prudent planning has become our
hallmark. Inflation is low, interest rates are low and our
unemployment rates are at record lows. My riding of Kitchener
Centre has an unemployment rate of only 4.6%.
Canadians understood in 1993 that we were between a rock and a
hard place and that the government had to make difficult choices.
Today the economic situation of the country has changed
dramatically. It is because of the sacrifices made by middle
class Canadians that the government is now able to give back to
its citizens through tax cuts, indexation, investments in social
programs, research and development and support for small and
medium size business.
Yesterday I had the opportunity to speak with an economics
professor from the University of Waterloo, Mr. Larry Smith. It
is his view that restoration of indexation has restored a sense
of equity to our tax system. He indicated that indexation was a
prudent approach for stimulating our economy. Moving too quickly
with tax cuts would be dangerous and may cause the Bank of Canada
to have to raise interest rates.
I would like to take a few moments to highlight how this budget
will benefit my riding of Kitchener Centre. Let me begin by
stating that the focus of budget 2000 is the middle class. This
budget is for the middle class families of Kitchener. Restoring
full indexation to the personal income tax system protects
against inflation. This will benefit every Canadian family.
I am pleased that Kitchener families receiving the Canada child
tax benefit and GST credits will no longer see these things
eroded by inflation. The government has set out a plan that
reduces personal income tax. The middle tax rate will go down to
23% from 26%. This will cut taxes for nine million Canadians.
We have also increased the income thresholds at which personal
income tax rates apply. We have increased the amount of income
Canadians can receive tax free to at least $8,000.
1740
On an annual basis residents of Kitchener will see personal
income taxes reduced by an average of 15%. Low income Canadians
will see an 18% reduction. For families with children, net
personal income taxes will be reduced an average of 21%.
The Liberal government heard clearly from Canadians and I heard
directly from my constituents how important the Canada child tax
benefit is to families. By 2004 an additional $2.5 billion
annually will be provided to low and middle income families with
children, bringing the investment total to $9 billion per year.
Last October in the Speech from the Throne the Governor General
stated, “The government will extend and make more accessible
employment insurance benefits for parental leave, to help parents
take more time from work to spend with their children”. We have
now met this commitment. Maternity and parental leave will be
increased to one year starting December 31, 2000. This leave
will be made more flexible and accessible. This measure will
provide additional benefits of about $900 million a year.
The government is also fulfilling an earlier announcement to
provide $753 million to aid in finding solutions for homeless
Canadians.
We have also invested in programs and tax relief for disabled
Canadians. In Kitchener the Independent Living Centre has
received funding from the opportunities fund. According to
director Paula Saunders, those in the program found full time,
part time and self-employment opportunities with a success rate
of 80%. The government has renewed its commitment to the
opportunities fund, investing $30 million a year to ensure that
groups such as the Independent Living Centre can continue this
good work.
The federal government has also allocated funding to cover 75%
of the cost of diagnostic assessments for Canadians with severe
learning disabilities.
Finally, in the area of assisting special needs people, the
government has expanded the disability tax credit and the medical
expense tax credit. In total these measures will increase tax
assistance to persons with disabilities by an estimated $45
million annually.
This is not wasteful spending as the opposition would have us
believe.
Kitchener is a hotbed for small business and high tech industry.
We have strong dynamic companies in our area such as GFI Control
Systems, Research in Motion, Devtek and Intelli-Tactics. The
government's five year tax reduction plan will assist companies
such as these to become more competitive. Our tax system is now
more conducive to investment and to innovation.
Kitchener's high tech businesses will benefit from the reduction
in corporate tax rates to 21%. Smaller area companies will also
benefit from the reduction on small business income between
$200,000 and $300,000.
We know the importance of risk taking and the greater access to
finance for small businesses. Therefore we are responding by
reducing the capital gains inclusion rate from three-quarters to
two-thirds.
We are postponing the taxation of gains on qualifying stock
options to when the shares are sold rather than when they are
exercised. Finally, we will allow a tax free rollover of capital
gains on qualified investment from one small business to another.
The government has been working hard to put in place the key
measures to improve the economic environment for aggressive
business growth and competition. This exciting news should be
good news for all Canadians, especially young Canadians. They
want to be part of a dynamic business industry where there is
opportunity to learn, expand and prosper. If the economic
climate is right and graduates see the growth of aggressive
companies in their own backyard, such as Research in Motion, they
will choose to stay in Canada.
Our students are an extremely valuable resource and we have made
some important commitments to them in this budget. These
commitments will also benefit institutions such as Conestoga
College, Wilfrid Laurier University and the University of
Waterloo.
Having met with student presidents from these schools, I have
heard the need. I have heard them request that we move from a
$500 tax exemption for scholarships, fellowships and bursaries.
Students from across the country delivered a strong message. We
have responded by raising the tax exemption limit to $3,000. We
have also committed to maintaining the Canada student loans
program.
Budget 2000 has allocated $900 million over five years through
the granting councils to establish and sustain 2,000 Canadian
research chairs by 2004-05.
This is an important initiative that will attract world class
researchers to Canada and it will keep world class researchers in
Canada.
1745
At a post-budget breakfast Dennis Grimm of
PricewaterhouseCoopers commented:
Yesterday's budget is a plan to address the international
competitiveness, productivity, brain drain, and the capital needs
of Canada's technology triangle.
As a former regional and municipal councillor, I have seen
firsthand the positive impact of the infrastructure program.
The mayor of Kitchener, Mr. Curl Zehr, said:
The federal budget provides a catalyst for partnering with the
province and our municipalities, to begin to address some of our
urgent infrastructure deficiencies such as transit and roads,
environmental initiatives and affordable housing.
Truly we have set forward a plan on which Canadians can count
and on which they can judge us by our actions. We wrestled down
the deficit and now we are investing in the things which
Canadians say they want. With a strong economy we will continue
undoubtedly to be the best country in the world in which to live
through the 21st century.
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I
listened to the presentation of the member for Kitchener Centre
with interest. I am sure she made her comments with the best of
intentions and believes them to be true. However, if the budget
is as good as she says, then I would like to ask why we are still
waiting for the finance minister's ship to come in and start
paying taxes.
Here are some facts on which I would like the member's response.
The average Canadian family at the time of the next election
will be paying $700 more in tax than when the government took
office. That is a fact number one.
Spending over the next five years as a result of this budget
will go up $2,800 for each and every Canadian. I have five
children. My wife and I and our five children, assuming we are
average Canadians, will pay $20,000 more in tax, which will be
spent by the government. That is fact number two.
Canadians are worried about health care. The finance minister
seems quite content to let the billions of dollars in boondoggle
spending continue, such as what we have seen in HRDC, rather than
putting a stop to it and putting the money into health care.
That is fact number three.
There is a better option, which is Reform's solution 17. It
would deliver $5,000 in tax relief for each family over the next
five years, rather than this increase of $700 from the time the
government took office. That is what we have to offer.
I would like the member, who made these wonderful statements, to
comment on these facts.
Mrs. Karen Redman: Madam Speaker, while I thank the
member opposite for his questions, I despair over his
mathematics. I happen to know one of his Reform colleagues and I
wonder if they could get together with a calculator to figure
this out.
Canadians get a lot in return for their tax dollars. One thing
which the government has made very clear is that it will not run
deficits. It will make sure that it is not giving tax cuts with
borrowed money and that it will make strategic investments.
Health care is at the top of the list of all Canadians and we in
the government are trying to work with the provinces and
territories to make sure that structurally we change how we
deliver health care in Canada.
There are many challenges. The problem is much more than money.
I need to point out that it is not the intent of the government
to make a down payment on a few hospital beds. We are creating
the kind of economy that will sustain a medicare system well into
the next century, and that is what defines us as Canadians.
Mrs. Michelle Dockrill (Bras d'Or—Cape Breton, NDP):
Madam Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague across the way for her
wonderful speech. The reality is that the surplus which the
government has, and is now deciding how to spend, was made on the
backs of Canadian workers and not because the government has been
a good fiscal manager.
The fact is, that is where the government received its surplus
and those Canadian workers have children.
1750
I had the occasion last night to meet with the student union of
University College of Cape Breton. As we speak, the students'
professors are on strike because they are paid 30% less than
other professors across the country.
One of the students wanted me to ask a question of the
government. Why did the government not recognize the position in
which students have been put in terms of high debt load and high
tuition fees and why did it refuse to address that in the budget?
Mrs. Karen Redman: Madam Speaker, I thank my hon.
colleague for the question. I have two universities in my
community and I hear from them all the time.
In the last three budgets this government has addressed some of
the concerns surrounding student debt. Clearly, it is a topic
that we have discussed. There are the millennium scholarships.
We have changed the RESPs as well as RRSPs, which can now be used
at any time for lifelong learning.
This is an issue that we need to work on together with the
provinces. While we transfer money to the provinces, we see very
different approaches. Quebec and Ontario have deregulated
tuition fees, which has had an impact on students.
I believe that the federal government is trying to be part of
the solution.
Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain (Guelph—Wellington, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I am pleased to take part in this very important budget
debate.
This is a budget that all Canadians can and should be proud of.
It is a balanced budget in two ways. Not only is this our third
consecutive balanced budget, but the promises made in this budget
are also balanced. We have balanced the need to deliver tax
relief and to repay the debt with the need to maintain our valued
social programs.
Once again the federal government has proven that its commitment
to fiscal responsibility is unshakeable and that this commitment
does not prevent us from helping Canadians in need. On the
contrary, it is because of this sound financial management that
we have continued to improve the quality of life for all
Canadians. Like the budget says: better finances, better lives.
Last fall I conducted a prebudget survey in my riding of
Guelph—Wellington. I asked my constituents to identify their
priorities for the 2000 federal budget. Their concerns were
health care, tax cuts, post-secondary education, the environment,
infrastructure and children. The government listened to our
concerns and acted on them. Every single one of the priorities
identified by the constituents of Guelph—Wellington has been
addressed in this very budget.
Our health care system has been a source of national pride for
many years. Guelph—Wellington chose health care as one of its
top priorities and so did the federal government.
The provinces will receive an additional $2.5 billion through
the Canada health and social transfer. This is the fourth
consecutive time that we have increased funding for the CHST. In
the last two years alone we have increased the cash portion of
the CHST by 25%.
Here is another important figure. This year funding for the
CHST will reach an all time high of $31 billion. Obviously the
federal government is committed to health care. This is the
highest amount ever that has been transferred to the provinces.
It is very important to emphasize this point because of false
accusations made by Ontario's provincial government that we are
not doing enough to fund health care. It is true that the
federal government had to make some difficult decisions to reduce
the deficit, but it is also true that federal transfers to the
provinces in both cash and tax points are higher today than when
we took office.
We have pumped an additional $4.4 billion over five years into
health care in Ontario since balancing the budget. The Ontario
government promised that every single penny of this money would
go directly to health care. I certainly hope that the Ontario
government lives up to its promise, instead of doing like it has
in the past, using federal funding to pay for its tax cuts.
1755
The federal government is also committed to post-secondary
education. In addition to the $2.5 billion increase in the CHST
funding, the federal government will increase the tax exemption
for income, for scholarships, fellowships and bursaries from $500
to $3,000, meaning that there will be no federal tax on the
average $3,000 millennium scholarship.
The federal government will also provide $900 million over five
years to fund and sustain 2,000 21st century chairs for research
excellence at Canadian universities. Funding for the Canada
Foundation for Innovation will increase by $900 million as well.
Research will also be supported through $160 million for Genome
Canada and $90 million to improve Canada's ability to regulate
biotechnology.
All of this is great news for the University of Guelph, its
students and its faculty. The money is intended to help, and I
sincerely hope that the Ontario government will use all of it for
this purpose. Ontario tuition rates are the highest in the
country and Ontario also spends the least per capita on
post-secondary education because of the provincial government.
Ontario has also chosen to claw back the Canada millennium
scholarships, money intended to make post-secondary education
more accessible. Instead of giving the money to the students in
Ontario, it is using the money to fund its Ontario student
opportunity grant.
It is important to point out all of this so that we can set the
record straight about what five years of Premier Harris' style of
governing has done to Ontario and to his residents.
On the other hand, the last seven years under this federal
Liberal government have been very good for Ontario and for
Canada. We have eliminated the deficit, balanced the budget and
have started to pay down the debt. In short, we have turned the
economy around. Thanks to the hard work of Canadians and sound
fiscal management, we have been able to maintain our valued
social programs and deliver tax cuts without borrowing a single
penny, unlike the province of Ontario which chose to cut taxes
before balancing the budget and as a result has increased its
deficit by $14 billion. Ontario gave a tax cut and borrowed
money.
Budget 2000 introduces the most important structural changes to
the federal tax system in more than a decade. These changes will
deliver at least $54 billion in tax relief by 2004 and will
benefit all Canadians. Bracket creep will be eliminated by fully
indexing the personal income tax system. On average, Canadians
will see their personal income taxes reduced by 15% annually. Low
and middle income Canadians will see an annual decrease of 18%
and families with children will see a 21% drop.
Tax brackets have also been adjusted. The middle tax rate now
begins at $35,000 as opposed to $30,000, and the top rate at
$70,000 as opposed to $65,000, and the middle income tax rate
will be cut from 26% to 23%.
Investment and entrepreneurship will be further encouraged by
lowering the capital gains tax and decreasing corporate taxes.
The foreign content limit for RRSPs will also be increased from
20% to 25% and then to 30%.
These tax cuts will benefit all Canadians but especially
families with children. These changes will affect things like
GST credits and the Canada child tax benefit. We are also
helping children by allocating another $2.5 billion to the child
tax benefit increasing it to more than $9 billion annually.
Maximum benefits will reach $2,400 for a family's first child
and $2,200 for each additional child. Parents of children with
disabilities will also receive additional assistance through an
increase in the disability tax credit. We are concerned about
our children's future and are making concrete investments to
ensure that every child has the best possible start in life.
One way we can do this is by protecting the environment. To
this end, the federal government will integrate environmental and
economic policies through the development of new technologies and
sustainable practices. Budget 2000 will invest $700 million in
such initiatives as climate change action funds, a sustainable
development technology fund, a green municipal investment fund
and the national strategy on species at risk.
Guelph—Wellington has always been a leader in environmental
technology, and we will definitely benefit from these
initiatives.
1800
The federal government is also making a significant investment
in new physical infrastructure. Most of this funding will be
directed to municipal infrastructure and highways, both issues of
interest to Guelph—Wellington. The Guelph council and mayor
want this infrastructure program. They feel they have benefited
in the past from it, and they will benefit in the future again.
We have listened to Canadians and balanced the budget first
before cutting taxes. The first tax cuts went to those who
needed our help the most. In last year's budget and in this
budget we extended those benefits to all Canadians. This is
responsible, fair and permanent tax relief.
To the critics who say that we did not fund social programs
enough, I remind them that health care and education are shared
jurisdictions. We give money to the provinces and they deliver
the services. In Ontario, the Harris government chooses to claw
back this money rather than use it to help people.
The hon. Minister of Finance has said that there will be more
money for health care if the provinces are willing to come to the
table. We also need assurances from Premier Harris that this
money will not be used to fund his tax cuts as it has been in the
past.
I am proud of the budget. It is good news for
Guelph—Wellington and for all of Canada. We have done what we
said we would do and we have done it well. Together we will
continue to improve the quality of life of each and every
Canadian.
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Madam Speaker, we
just heard the member for Guelph—Wellington say wonderful things
about the finance minister's budget. The reality will not escape
Canadians. As they look at their paystubs over the next five
years what they will find will be grizzly indeed. That will be
the reality check.
I want to talk a bit about $58 billion in tax relief that the
Liberals claim. We have to take $7.5 billion from that over five
years, which is social spending and not a tax decrease. I am
referring to the child benefits. That is a social program. That
is an increase in social spending and not a tax decrease. That
has to be taken off the $58 billion.
The $29.5 billion increase in the Canada pension plan tax over
the next five years has to be taken off, as well as the $13.5
billion which were scheduled tax increases that, according to the
finance minister, will not be carried through. Is a scheduled
tax increase which has been removed actually a tax reduction? The
Liberals say so. I say it is not a tax reduction. That is a
promise of more tax which we hear from the government all the
time that will not be carried through. That is a nice thing, but
it leaves as a bottom line $8 billion in tax cuts over five
years. That is all.
What does that amount do for an individual? If we take it on a
per taxpayer basis it amounts to $107 per taxpayer per year.
That is what the promise the finance minister put in place and
the member for Guelph—Wellington made sound so nice translates
into. Nine dollars per month is all average Canadian taxpayers
will see or $2.07 a week. It is disgusting. All these nice
things are deceit in the worst way. The finance minister knows
it and the member should know it.
Mr. Lynn Myers: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. The hon. member opposite should have better parliamentary
decorum. He should know that the word deceit is unacceptable. I
would also like to point out that those people opposite with
their soulmates, the Republican Party, are out to lunch.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I am afraid the hon.
member is getting into debate. Nevertheless, I caution the
member to choose his words more judiciously.
1805
Mr. Leon E. Benoit: Madam Speaker, I appreciate being
given the opportunity to say that deceit is not acceptable in the
House or anywhere else. Nor is using the word, and I do
apologize for that. I got carried away in the heat of the
moment.
Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain: Madam Speaker, I certainly
accept the hon. member's apology. He also said that I was saying
some nice things so that balances things out. I am okay with it.
I want to address some of the points he talked about. He talked
about the child tax benefit that we are giving. He talked about
the environment. He talked about knowledge, innovation and
families. For all of it he said “take it off, take it away”.
I am not surprised we hear that from the Reform Party. There
has never been support for any of those things from the Reform
Party. It has always believed that tax cuts, tax cuts and tax
cuts are the only way of doing business, but we all know that
many more things are important to Canadians. Their health care
is important to them. It is important that they have their
housing needs met. It is important that they have social
programs to support them. It is important that we support the
environment. If we do not, what will be left for our children?
The Liberal government will absolutely continue to fund such
programs but also in a balanced fashion cut taxes, wipe out the
deficit, and continue on a strong fiscal path while caring for
every Canadian. That is what Canadians want. That is what we
will deliver.
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to respond to the
government's budget. I will be splitting my time with the member
for Elk Island.
I am pleased that the government has finally listened to the
Reform Party of Canada. We have been fighting since the
inception of this party for the last 13 years to end bracket
creep. I am pleased to see that end. It is good for Canadians.
I am really pleased that the Government of Canada finally
listened to the Reform Party of Canada.
Let us get on to a bigger and more important issue, one that I
feel very strongly about. That is what this budget is really
about. Let us not make any mistakes. The culture of the Liberal
government is to spend, spend, spend. For the last 40 years we
have seen spend. Liberals believe in bigger, bigger, bigger;
more spending, more spending, more spending. I will prove that
in the House with the Minister of Finance's own numbers in a
minute. Let me quote from the Canadian Chamber of Commerce in
response to the budget:
This budget boosted overall program spending with no
consideration of reallocating resources to higher priorities
within an already overinflated spending envelope. By continuing
to apply year-end surpluses toward future spending initiatives,
it raises the spending bar in the future indefinitely.
We have seen an $86 billion increase in spending in the budget.
In HRDC we have seen one of the largest scandals in decades, a
billion dollar boondoggle. How did the Minister of Finance
respond? He raised its budget by $226 million this year alone.
That is how he responds to unaccountable, unacceptable spending.
Grants and contributions from all departments are up $1.5 billion
this year alone. That is completely unacceptable. Canadians are
demanding some actions to bring back accountability.
We have heard Liberal members and even the Minister of Finance
ask how come they are not getting any questions on the budget.
The budget in every corporation including the Government of
Canada is about spending every single last dime of taxpayer
money. That is what a budget is. That is what we have been
responding to. That is what the billion dollar boondoggle is.
That is what this unaccountable spending is. That is what the
slush fund is.
1810
The government is more interested in putting money into creating
new hotel beds in Shawinigan than it is in putting money into
health care and creating beds in hospitals. It is absolutely
unacceptable.
What happens when spending is increased to this magnitude? Guess
what. We go into another deficit situation. Let us look at the
finance minister's numbers. If anyone is interested, I am
reading from page 46 of the budget book. There is a graph with
two lines, fiscal requirements surplus and budget requirements.
Does the House know what will happen at the end of this year?
The budget is what the government plans to spend and the
financial requirements on its graph is the money that it will to
take to meet those budget requirements. Lo and behold we are in
a downward dive like a diving goose going straight into the
ground. It crosses zero and keeps going into the minus at the end
of this year. We are in a deficit situation. If members do not
believe me, they can look on page 46 of the finance minister's
own document.
Some would ask what that means. I was in London with the Leader
of the Opposition and my colleague from Medicine Hat listening to
the economic statement of the Minister of Finance. Do you know,
Madam Speaker, what he told us there? He said “I am going to
cut up the credit card. Never again will the Government of
Canada get into deficit”.
He has found a new gold credit card. By his own numbers he is
in a deficit situation at the end of this year. It is in black
and white. I urge members to look at it for themselves on page
46 of the minister's own budget. It is right there. The
minister's definition of financial requirements on page 47
states:
Another important measure of the Government's finances is the
financial requirements...the difference between cash coming into
the Government and cash payments made for programs and public
debt charges during the year.
The cash coming in to pay for these programs is not enough to
meet the government's incestuous, crazy spending habits. It is
absolutely crazy. This government is crazy about spending. It
is evident in its own numbers. It is planning on taking money
that is supposedly coming in from taxpayers next year to pay for
this year's budget. That is how people use a credit card. They
do not have the cash now, slap it on the old Visa and pay for it
later. That is exactly what the government has gone back into.
It has its spending programs. At the same time it is ignoring
the debt. There is not a mention about the debt. Yes, there is
a $3 billion contingency fund. If the government does not spend
it, it may put it on the debt. It does not mention that at all.
To health care, which is facing the biggest crisis in the
country, it allocates $2.5 billion over four years. It is not
nearly enough.
I will conclude right now in one sentence. The government needs
to reallocate the money from TAGS and other programs which are
unaccountable, which are definitely political slush funds that go
to the government's own insiders and its friends. It should
bring that money back into health care, bring back accountability
and, for goodness sake, make sure that we do not go back into
another deficit, as it states we will do on page 46 of the
Minister of Finance's own book.
The government should be ashamed of itself for allowing the
country to go back into a deficit. It is an absolute bloody
disgrace.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): It being 6.45 p.m., it is my
duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every
question necessary to dispose of the amendment to the amendment
now before the House.
1815
[English]
The question is on the amendment to the amendment. Is it the
pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment to the amendment.?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): All those in favour
of the amendment to the amendment will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): In my opinion the nays
have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Call in the members.
1845
(The House divided on the amendment to the amendment, which was
negatived on the following division:)
YEAS
Members
Ablonczy
| Alarie
| Anders
| Asselin
|
Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
|
Benoit
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
|
Bigras
| Blaikie
| Borotsik
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
|
Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Brien
| Cadman
| Canuel
|
Cardin
| Casey
| Casson
| Chatters
|
Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
| Dalphond - Guiral
| de Savoye
|
Debien
| Desjarlais
| Desrochers
| Dockrill
|
Doyle
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
| Dumas
|
Duncan
| Earle
| Elley
| Epp
|
Fournier
| Gagnon
| Girard - Bujold
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
|
Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Goldring
| Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
|
Gruending
| Guay
| Guimond
| Hanger
|
Hardy
| Hart
| Harvey
| Herron
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Jaffer
| Jones
|
Keddy
(South Shore)
| Konrad
| Lalonde
| Laurin
|
Lebel
| Lill
| Loubier
| Lowther
|
Lunn
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Manning
| Marceau
|
Marchand
| Mark
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Mayfield
|
McNally
| Ménard
| Mercier
| Meredith
|
Muise
| Nystrom
| Obhrai
| Penson
|
Perron
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Plamondon
| Reynolds
|
Riis
| Robinson
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
Scott
(Skeena)
| Solberg
| St - Hilaire
| St - Jacques
|
Strahl
| Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
|
Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
| Wasylycia - Leis
| Wayne
|
Williams – 105
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Anderson
| Assad
|
Assadourian
| Augustine
| Axworthy
| Baker
|
Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
|
Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
| Byrne
|
Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
|
Carroll
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cotler
|
Cullen
| DeVillers
| Dion
| Discepola
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Finlay
| Folco
| Fontana
|
Fry
| Gagliano
| Gallaway
| Godfrey
|
Goodale
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
|
Guarnieri
| Harb
| Harvard
| Hubbard
|
Ianno
| Iftody
| Jackson
| Jennings
|
Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
|
Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Lastewka
|
Lavigne
| Lee
| Leung
| Limoges
|
Lincoln
| Longfield
| MacAulay
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
| Marleau
|
Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Matthews
| McCormick
| McGuire
|
McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
|
Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Murray
|
Myers
| Nault
| Normand
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
|
O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
|
Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
| Peterson
|
Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
|
Pratt
| Proud
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
| Robillard
|
Rock
| Saada
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Sekora
|
Serré
| Sgro
| Shepherd
| Speller
|
St. Denis
| St - Julien
| Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
|
Torsney
| Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
|
Volpe
| Wappel
| Whelan
| Wilfert
|
Wood – 149
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare the amendment to the amendment
lost.
This House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m., pursuant
to Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 6.48 p.m.)