36th Parliament, 2nd Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 26
CONTENTS
Tuesday, November 23, 1999
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
1005
| GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| PRIVACY ACT
|
| Bill C-330. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. John Reynolds |
| IMMIGRATION ACT
|
| Bill C-331. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. John Reynolds |
| IMMIGRATION ACT
|
| Bill C-332. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. John Reynolds |
| IMMIGRATION ACT
|
| Bill C-333. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. John Reynolds |
1010
| CRIMINAL CODE
|
| Bill C-334. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. John Reynolds |
| CRIMINAL CODE
|
| Bill C-335. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. John Reynolds |
| OFFICIAL LANGUAGES ACT
|
| Bill C-336. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Jim Pankiw |
| PARLIAMENT OF CANADA ACT
|
| Bill C-337. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Jim Pankiw |
1015
| PETITIONS
|
| The Constitution
|
| Ms. Bev Desjarlais |
| Canada Health Act
|
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
| Kidney Disease
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| Banking
|
| Mr. Jim Pankiw |
| Nuclear Weapons
|
| Mr. Jim Pankiw |
| Charter of Rights and Freedoms
|
| Mr. Jim Pankiw |
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| CANADIAN INSTITUTES OF HEALTH RESEARCH ACT
|
| Bill C-13. Second reading
|
| Hon. Allan Rock |
1020
1025
1030
1035
1040
| Mr. Keith Martin |
1045
1050
1055
1100
1105
1110
| Mr. Réal Ménard |
1115
1120
1125
1130
1135
1140
1145
1150
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
1155
1200
1205
1210
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
1215
| Mr. Reed Elley |
1220
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
1225
1230
1235
1240
| Mr. Réal Ménard |
1245
| Mr. Bernard Patry |
1250
1255
1300
| Mr. Reed Elley |
1305
1310
1315
| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
1320
1325
1330
1335
1340
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
1345
1350
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
1355
| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| MINING INDUSTRY
|
| Mr. Stan Dromisky |
| TAXATION
|
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| NANCY GREENE-RAINE
|
| Mr. Ted McWhinney |
1400
| CHILD POVERTY
|
| Ms. Carolyn Bennett |
| PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| UKRAINE
|
| Mr. Inky Mark |
| INTERNATIONAL FUND FOR IRELAND
|
| Mr. Pat O'Brien |
| MÉNÉTRIERS D'ANTAN
|
| Mr. Maurice Dumas |
1405
| FARM TOURISM INDUSTRY
|
| Mr. Denis Paradis |
| THE LATE ARNOLD SILZER
|
| Mr. Chuck Cadman |
| ROYAL CANADIAN HORSE ARTILLERY
|
| Mr. Hec Clouthier |
| DIABETES
|
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
| JOURNÉE NATIONALE DES PATRIOTES
|
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
1410
| BLOC QUEBECOIS
|
| Mrs. Marlene Jennings |
| THE ECONOMY
|
| Mr. Scott Brison |
| QUEBEC'S MINISTER OF STATE FOR ECONOMY AND FINANCE
|
| Ms. Raymonde Folco |
| ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE
|
| Mr. Jim Abbott |
| NEWLY SOVEREIGN COUNTRIES
|
| Mr. Yvan Loubier |
1415
| MULTINATIONALS
|
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
1420
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| REFERENDUMS
|
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
1425
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| CHILD POVERTY
|
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
1430
| NATIONAL DEFENCE
|
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
| Mr. Robert Bertrand |
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
| Mr. Robert Bertrand |
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Mike Scott |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Mike Scott |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| REFERENDUMS
|
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
1435
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Jim Gouk |
| Hon. Robert D. Nault |
| Mr. Jim Gouk |
| Hon. Robert D. Nault |
| REFERENDUMS
|
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
1440
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Derrek Konrad |
| Hon. Robert D. Nault |
| Mr. Derrek Konrad |
| Hon. Robert D. Nault |
| TOBACCO COMPANIES
|
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| MINING INDUSTRY
|
| Mr. Réginald Bélair |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
1445
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
| Hon. Robert D. Nault |
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
| Hon. Robert D. Nault |
| FRESHWATER EXPORTS
|
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
1450
| NATIONAL DEFENCE
|
| Mr. David Price |
| Mr. Robert Bertrand |
| Mr. David Price |
| Mr. Robert Bertrand |
| THE ENVIRONMENT
|
| Ms. Aileen Carroll |
| Hon. David Anderson |
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Reed Elley |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| NATIONAL PAROLE BOARD
|
| Mrs. Pierrette Venne |
| Mr. Jacques Saada |
1455
| TOBACCO INDUSTRY
|
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| NATIONAL DEFENCE
|
| Mr. Bill Casey |
| Mr. Robert Bertrand |
| NATIONAL UNITY
|
| Mr. John Nunziata |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Hon. Robert D. Nault |
1500
| VALÉRIE HOULD-MARCHAND
|
| Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire |
| Hon. Denis Coderre |
| RIGHTS OF CHILDREN
|
| Ms. Wendy Lill |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
1505
| CANADIAN INSTITUTES OF HEALTH RESEARCH ACT
|
| Bill C-13. Second reading
|
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
1510
1515
1520
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
1525
| Ms. Carolyn Bennett |
1530
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
1535
| Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
| Mr. Bryon Wilfert |
1540
1545
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
1550
| Mr. André Harvey |
1555
1600
1605
1610
1615
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
1620
| Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
1625
1630
1635
1640
1645
| Mr. Bernard Bigras |
1650
1655
1700
1705
| Hon. Martin Cauchon |
1710
1715
1720
1725
| Hon. Martin Cauchon |
1730
1750
| SUPPLY
|
| Alotted Day—Nisga'a Final Agreement
|
| Motion
|
1800
(Division 55)
| Amendment negatived
|
1810
(Division 56)
| Motion negatived
|
| YOUTH CRIMINAL JUSTICE ACT
|
| Bill C-3. Second reading
|
1820
(Division 57)
| Amendment negatived
|
1825
1830
(Division 58)
| motion agreed to
|
1835
| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
| SHIPBUILDING ACT, 1999
|
| Bill C-213. Second reading
|
| Mr. Antoine Dubé |
1840
1845
1850
1855
| Mr. John Cannis |
1900
1905
| Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
1910
1915
| Ms. Wendy Lill |
1920
1925
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
1930
1935
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 26
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Tuesday, November 23, 1999
The House met at 10 a.m.
Prayers
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
1005
[Translation]
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant
to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in both
official languages, the government's response to two petitions.
* * *
[English]
PRIVACY ACT
Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.)
moved for leave to introduce Bill C-330, an act to amend the
Privacy Act.
He said: Mr. Speaker, this bill amends the Privacy Act to
invest the power in the privacy commissioner to ensure
impartiality.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
IMMIGRATION ACT
Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.)
moved for leave to introduce Bill C-331, an act to amend the
Immigration Act (persons without identification not to be allowed
into Canada as immigrants or refugees or under a minister's
permit).
He said: Mr. Speaker, this bill amends the Immigration Act to
ensure that those immigrants wishing to enter Canada have proper
identification.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
IMMIGRATION ACT
Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.)
moved for leave to introduce Bill C-332, an act to amend the
Immigration Act and the Criminal Code (refugee or immigrant
applicants convicted of an offence on indictment).
He said: Mr. Speaker, this bill amends the Immigration Act and
the Criminal Code to ensure that those who commit an indictable
offence while attempting to enter Canada can be removed.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
IMMIGRATION ACT
Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.)
moved for leave to introduce Bill C-333, an act to amend the
Immigration Act (removal of those convicted of serious criminal
offence).
1010
He said: Mr. Speaker, this bill amends the Immigration Act to
ensure that those seeking immigrant status who commit a serious
criminal offence can be removed from Canada.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.)
moved for leave to introduce Bill C-334, an act to amend the
Criminal Code (wearing of war decorations).
He said: Mr. Speaker, this bill amends the criminal code to
allow the next of kin to wear war decorations appropriately.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.)
moved for leave to introduce Bill C-335, an act to amend the
Criminal Code, the Young Offenders Act and the Transfer of
Offenders Act (death penalty).
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
OFFICIAL LANGUAGES ACT
Mr. Jim Pankiw (Saskatoon—Humboldt, Ref.) moved for leave
to introduce Bill C-336, an act to amend the Official Languages
Act (provision of bilingual services).
He said: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to redefine
the criteria set out in the Official Languages Act by which the
language rights guaranteed by the Canadian Charter of Rights and
Freedoms will be provided so as to avoid unnecessary expense.
It sets out a standard of 25% of the population speaking an
official language as a significant demand that warrants service
in the official language.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
PARLIAMENT OF CANADA ACT
Mr. Jim Pankiw (Saskatoon—Humboldt, Ref.) moved for leave
to introduce Bill C-337, an act to amend the Parliament of Canada
Act (recognized political parties).
He said: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to provide
that only parties with the recognized membership of 10% or more
of the total membership of the House of Commons, with
representation from at least three provinces or territories,
shall be recognized political parties.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
1015
PETITIONS
THE CONSTITUTION
Ms. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am
honoured today to table on behalf of my constituents 43 petitions
calling on the government to keep the reference to God in the
Constitution of Canada.
These petitions come from a broad cross-section of the Churchill
riding: Pine Falls, Churchill, God's Lake Narrows, Flin Flon,
The Pas, Thicket Portage, Pikwitonei, Norway House, Snow Lake,
St. Theresa Point, Cranberry Portage, Pukatawagen, Oxford House,
Thompson, Wabowden, Gillam, Cormorant, Lac Brochet, Wanless and
Grand Rapids.
The constitution reflects our shared values in the charter of
rights and freedoms, as well as the reference to God in the
preamble. The fact that Canadians from so many different faiths
and cultures find a common meaning in the reference to God
symbolizes the wonderful diversity of our nation.
CANADA HEALTH ACT
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I am very pleased and honoured to be able to present a
petition that has been signed by thousands of Canadians.
This is a very timely petition. It gives the government some
critical advice at an important juncture especially facing the
initiatives we have heard this past couple of weeks from Ralph
Klein in Alberta.
The petitioners call on the federal government to preserve and
enforce the Canada Health Act, the foundation of medicare in
every province and region of Canada, and maintain the five
principles of medicare: universality, accessibility,
portability, comprehensiveness and non-profit administration.
They call on the government to guarantee national standards of
quality, publicly-funded health care for every Canadian citizen
as a right.
KIDNEY DISEASE
Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise
to present a petition from scores of people in the Peterborough
area who are interested in the development of a bioartificial
kidney.
They point out that as part of a caring society they believe
that the Government of Canada can deal more effectively with the
more than 18,000 Canadians suffering from end stage kidney
disease.
They point out that those on kidney dialysis and those
successfully transplanted recognize the importance of the
bioartificial kidney approach to their problems.
They point out that ministers of health have great difficulty
providing sufficient dialysis facilities and that rates of organ
donation are not sufficient to meet the need.
They therefore call on parliament to work and support the
development of a bioartificial kidney which will eventually
eliminate the need for both dialysis or transplantation for those
suffering from kidney disease.
BANKING
Mr. Jim Pankiw (Saskatoon—Humboldt, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
I have three petitions to present today.
The first petition calls on parliament to totally reject the
recommendations of the MacKay task force pertaining to the entry
of banks into the casualty and property insurance markets.
NUCLEAR WEAPONS
Mr. Jim Pankiw (Saskatoon—Humboldt, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the second petition calls on parliament to support the government
in urgently making an unequivocal commitment to nuclear weapons
negotiations and in calling for immediate and practical steps to
de-alert and deactivate nuclear weapons world wide.
CHARTER OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS
Mr. Jim Pankiw (Saskatoon—Humboldt, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the final petition I have to present calls upon parliament to
support a motion introduced by the member of parliament for
Yorkton—Melville which states:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should
authorize a proclamation to be issued by the Governor General
under the Great Seal of Canada amending Section 7 of the Canadian
Charter of Rights and Freedoms to: (a) recognize the fundamental
right of individuals to pursue family life free from undue
interference from the state, and (b) recognize the fundamental
right, responsibility on liberty of parents to direct the
upbringing of their children, and urge the legislative assemblies
of the provinces to do likewise.
* * *
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I ask
that all questions be allowed to stand.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is that agreed.
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
CANADIAN INSTITUTES OF HEALTH RESEARCH ACT
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.) moved that Bill
C-13, an act to establish the Canadian Institutes of Health
Research, to repeal the Medical Research Council Act and to make
consequential amendments to other acts, be read the second time
and referred to a committee.
1020
He said: Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to take part today in a
debate in the House which is all about new directions for health
research in Canada. The creation of the Canadian institutes of
health research which is proposed in Bill C-13, now before the
House, will truly mark a transformation in the way health
research is organized, funded, co-ordinated and carried out in
our country.
The institutes that we propose are all about excellence, about
encouraging those who seek it, about rewarding those who achieve
it. It is about changing the way that we conduct scientific
inquiry in Canada. It is also about putting Canada at the
leading edge of a dynamic international movement toward
discovery. From cancer to the human genome project, from the
workings of the brain to understanding better the social and
environmental factors that lead to health or illness, scientists
are pushing back the frontiers of knowledge toward understanding.
Investigators are contributing to our grasp of factors that
contribute to health and allow us to focus on the prevention of
illness. Here in Canada, we understand the importance of that
work. We know that health researchers are making an outstanding
contribution, not only to the breadth of our knowledge but also
to the depth of our understanding and to the quality of our
lives.
The Prime Minister's government is committed to making Canada an
internationally acknowledged leader in the global advancement of
health research. To do that, to achieve that ambitious goal, we
need to contribute new scientific knowledge based on research
that meets the highest international standards of excellence. We
believe the best way to do that is to break down the barriers
that have always separated different lines of inquiry in health
research, separated one discipline from the other and so we
propose the creation of the Canadian institutes of health
research.
This will be a network of investigators linked in virtual
institutes. It will bring together experts from four major
disciplines: from biomedical enquiry, to clinical research, to
those working on how to improve health services and the delivery
of services to Canadians, and those who focus on health
determinants, what makes us ill and what keeps us healthy.
This national network will address emerging opportunities,
threats and challenges to accelerate the discovery of cures and
of treatments. It will build on the research base already out
there in our universities, in our health and research centres, in
our teaching hospitals and in our research institutes and link
them all in a way that has never been done before.
By connecting all of these different areas of research and
knowledge, we believe we can break down the old stovepipes of the
past and instead create the intellectual pipelines of the future.
[Translation]
We are very excited about this initiative at this time. To our
knowledge, no other country in the world is bringing such a
multidisciplinary approach to health research and we are
confident that it will transform not only how such research is
done in Canada, but in other countries as well.
1025
One of the reasons we have such confidence in this project is
that it came from the health research community itself and
reflects their priorities.
It was not imposed by the government. It was researcher-driven.
Indeed, the involvement of the research community has been
crucial to this initiative from the outset.
In 1998, a national task force of Canada's health research
community came together to chart a new course for research in
this country. After exhaustive consultations, that task force
recommended the creation of the Canadian Institutes of Health
Research.
[English]
These measures build on the strong foundation created over 60
years by the Medical Research Council of Canada as well as the
national health research and development program.
To facilitate the transition from the Medical Research Council
to the institutes, an interim governing council was appointed
made up of 34 eminent Canadians representing the research
community, health practitioners, the private sector, charities,
university presidents, granting councils and provinces. This
interim governing council has performed an outstanding service.
As a minister of the government, I want to report to the House
that we should all be in the debt of these public-spirited
persons who took so much time from their lives to make the
remarkable effort to pull together the proposals that have now
been expressed in the proposed legislation, which is Bill C-13.
It is important for members to know that this effort was led by
Dr. Henry Friesen, a scientist of conspicuous ability and
president of the Medical Research Council of Canada. He presided
over the task force and over the interim governing council.
Working with him at the interim council were two vice-chairs,
Dorothy Lamont, president of the Canadian Cancer Society, and
Eric Maldoff, who is, among other things, a busy legal
practitioner from Montreal, but who involves himself in a variety
of public service functions. These three people have made a
lasting contribution to the leadership they have shown on the
interim governing council. The government and the House, I
believe, is very much in their debt.
The institutes of health represent a further demonstration of
the strong commitment of the Prime Minister and his government
toward research and the knowledge economy. We created a national
network of centres of excellence. We started the Canadian
foundation for innovation and, in the recent Speech from the
Throne and in the Prime Minister's speech in the House, we
announced the creation of 1,200 new chairs for research
excellence in universities around the country.
We knew that additional funding was needed if we were to keep
our research community alive and thriving, so we provided it.
In last February's budget, we announced $150 million over three
years for the existing granting councils. We set aside another
$65 million for the Canadian institutes in the coming fiscal
years. We will increase that amount to $175 million in the
second year. This is the single largest investment in health
research in Canadian history. It represents a doubling of the
level of Canadian funding for health research all in the space of
three years. It is a clear indication of the government's
profound commitment to research and to knowledge.
We are confident that these institutes will not only improve our
understanding of health issues, disease, health services and
prevention of illness, but they will also bring economic
benefits.
1030
New researchers will be hired. Technologists, graduate students
and other highly skilled workers will be given opportunities to
develop their potential. Over the longer term the work will lead
to new discoveries, new products and new patents. This dynamic
research environment will also create a very attractive
investment climate for Canadian and international companies,
resulting in even greater economic development.
Let me turn for a moment to how these institutes will work in
practice and why they represent an improvement over the current
system.
The health research environment is changing rapidly. New threats
to health are always emerging, for example, new strains of
bacteria resistant to old forms of treatment.
[Translation]
And in response to these new challenges, modern health research
is also changing. There is a revolution in genetic technologies
and a greater awareness of the effects of the environment and
other factors on our health.
At the same time, innovative methodologies in health research
are allowing us to identify and evaluate how to provide health
services in the most efficient and cost-effective way.
What we need to do is bring all of these elements together, in a
co-ordinated way. The CIHR will do this. It will integrate
basic biomedical research with applied clinical research.
It will improve our delivery of health care through study of
health services and systems. And it will deepen our
understanding of health by studying the factors which affect it.
[English]
They will also provide for a more efficient use of public funds.
At the moment, research proposals are largely initiated by
researchers themselves and funding is subject to quality review
by peers. While research will continue to be subject to peer
review, the new system will allow us to identify gaps in
knowledge and direct our efforts to filling those gaps. Both the
quality of the research and its relevance to health priorities
will be the basis for future funding.
I also want to point out that ethics will be a key component of
the institutes of health. Standards and policies will be
developed to ensure that research is conducted in keeping with
the highest ethical standards.
The institutes will also encourage the development of
partnerships. The institutes are designed to work seamlessly
with provincial and territorial health departments, with
universities, with health science centres and with other research
agencies. There will be a greater opportunity for the voluntary
sector and community groups to have a say in setting priorities
for research and for partnerships with institutes where there are
common goals to be pursued.
One element which illustrates this approach is the Community
Alliances in Health Research announced in October. This will
take the institutes of health research into communities across
the country to address issues of local concern.
Say for example the community has a particular health concern.
Researchers would work with community representatives to examine
the best ways of addressing those concerns, of finding the cause,
of facilitating prevention, of furthering treatment.
We know for example that rural communities face different health
challenges than urban areas. The CIHR will have the ability to
address the specific preoccupations of rural populations
employing a multidisciplinary approach.
The CIHR will do something else as well. It will create
opportunities for young Canadian scientists and for scientists
around the world to work in a cutting edge research environment.
Dr. Henry Friesen has said that this initiative “sets Canada up
to be a world centre”, to use his words.
Dr. Michael Smith, Nobel Laureate in 1993 who is now carrying on
his work in British Columbia has stated: “The creation of the
CIHR is a clear indication of a commitment to strengthen Canada's
research capacity. This is a wonderful time to be a part of this
country's research community as we enter the next millennium”.
1035
That is the kind of impact this legislation can have. That is
the kind of atmosphere of excellence we want to create here in
Canada.
[Translation]
Our goal is to make Canada the country of choice for researchers
from around the world. And we want to make our own students and
researchers feel that there is nowhere else they would rather be
because there is nowhere else that they can achieve so much. The
CIHR goes a long way to achieving that objective.
This legislation is good for health research. It is good for
jobs and it is good for Canada. Because at the end of the day,
its beneficiaries will not just be the research community, or
our young scientists, but Canadians, from all walks of life and
from all parts of the country.
[English]
It is Canadians who will have more information about preventing
disease and promoting health. It is Canadians who will benefit
from new treatments and products coming to market more quickly.
It is Canadians who will benefit from a health system that is
making the most efficient use of their health care dollars.
I hardly need to remind the House that when it comes to health
research, the obstacles to progress are often formidable. We
also know that the human impulse for exploration and for
discovery is unstoppable.
There has been much discussion in the House and elsewhere about
what some call a brain drain. There are numbers exchanged back
and forth in the debate about whether Canada is or is not
suffering a loss of human capital and its best brains. It is
difficult to know what the true facts are because the debate
becomes so clouded by politics. One thing we do know for certain
is that if we are to keep the best and brightest in our country,
if we are to create an environment in which excellence is
encouraged and its achievement is permitted, if we are to make
Canada, as the Prime Minister has said the place to be in the
21st century, then one of the essential steps we must take is to
invest in research and create a research environment where people
will want to stay and where people will want to come.
That is what the Canadian institutes of health research is
about. A doubling of federal funding for health research, a
co-ordination of every one of the disciplines involved in health
inquiry, a new approach to organizing and carrying out scientific
inquiry for health purposes, all of this has been inspired by
excellence. I truly believe that the legislation now before the
House can make a measurable difference not only in the research
environment, not only in keeping people in Canada and bringing
them from abroad to do their best work, but at the end day in
improving the health of Canadians and the capacity of our health
system to respond when they are ill.
Many years ago, maps of the world had whole sections of the
globe that were referred to only as terra incognita, because at
the time, no one knew what was there. Over the decades and
centuries, brave men and women ventured forth and discovered what
was there. They gave names to those places and pushed back the
frontiers of human experience and human knowledge.
Today there is still much terra incognita in human knowledge and
understanding. Nowhere is the process of exploration more
exciting or more important than in the field of health research.
Canada intends to be at the forefront of that field. As Canada's
Minister of Health, through this legislation I say to the world
that we intend to be the best. We intend to do it best. We
intend to demonstrate to the entire world that Canada is truly
the place to be.
1040
I commend this legislation to the House and urge all members of
all parties to support it. It is a measure that goes beyond
politics. It has nothing to do with partisanship. It is truly
in the interests of Canada. I encourage all my colleagues to
approach it in that spirit, to pass it through this place to
committee, to hear the witnesses, to make sure we have it right
and then to send this legislation on so that the institutes can
open their doors and commence to function on April 1 next year.
Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I listened with interest to the comments of the Minister
of Health. Our objectives are very similar. We in the Reform
Party are happy to see that finally the government has decided
over the last two years to put money back into research.
Our objectives are the same in trying to strengthen research. We
recognize that research is the backbone of our economy. It gives
Canadians a cutting edge to provide not only our citizens but
also people around the world with a better, safer, healthier
future.
I also want to compliment Dr. Henry Friesen for the work he has
done. He has been innovative in trying to merge or change the
Medical Research Council from what it was into a new, dynamic
unit which will ensure that more money is put into the cutting
edge of research rather than swallowed up in bureaucracy.
We in the Reform Party are happy to say, as far as we can see at
this point, that it will also provide an opportunity to revamp
research units to make them more effective. It also links up
existing research units across the country. Those linkages enable
people in the scientific field to be work more effectively.
Having previously worked in research, I can say that effort is
welcomed to be sure.
We will support the bill up to committee. If the bill will
improve the health and welfare of Canadians, research in Canada
and make sure more money will be put into the hard edge of
research rather than into the bureaucracy, then we in the Reform
Party will support it because it is a good thing. If the
accountability is there then we will support it. However, we
want to hear from the specialists and the researchers.
Of course, we do have some concerns. One of those concerns was
lobbed by a very well respected scientist in the country, Dr.
John Polanyi, our 1986 Nobel Laureate. Dr. Polanyi made a very
good point. He and other researchers around the country fear
that research will be industrialized, that the only way
individuals will be able to get their research funds is through a
small group of people at the top who will dictate to them what
they can and cannot do. I am sure the minister fully recognizes
that this is not a healthy thing in research. No one wants it.
When I met with Dr. Friesen, he assured me in the context of the
structure now that there would be peer review, that the money
that would be spent would go to the most effective corners of
research and that there would be outside, independent analysis on
an ongoing basis as to where the research funds would go. We
support that. At the end of the day we, and I hope the
government does too, want to make sure that taxpayers' dollars in
research, as in everything else, will be used in the most
effective fashion possible.
In the organization of the CIHR it was stated that 95% of the
moneys would be used for the hard edge of research and at a
maximum 5% of the money would be used for bureaucracy. That is a
good thing. We will make sure that the government holds up to
that promise. It is most important that the money gets down to
the hard edge and is not swallowed up by a bureaucracy.
I must admit that when I looked at the organizational structure,
my fear was that would be exactly what would happen, that the
organization being put forward was just another effort by the
government to create a large bureaucratic structure that would
swallow up a large amount of money at the expense of the hard
edge of research.
Our fear was that the extra money that was put into research
would not go into research but would go into developing this
rather grand bureaucratic scheme.
1045
However, in speaking with Dr. Friesen, many of the people on the
advisory boards will be volunteers selected from their peers.
They will be the best of the best so that they can select, advise
and channel our research funds from the federal government to
make sure we get the best bang for the buck.
Whatever happens with the CIHR, it should be an arm's length
institution so that the scientists who work there and scientists
across the country will be able to do the basic research that is
so important in developing groundbreaking findings in which
Canada has historically been a world leader.
We need that basic research and it needs to be supported. It is
not immediately obvious to those who work in research that their
findings and their work will actually lead to an economic benefit
in the short term. That is not what research is about.
It is true that much of the money that is invested has to have
an economic benefit. We have to show effect and responsibility
for taxpayer dollars, but there is a balance. On the one hand we
have to make sure that the money goes to the type of research
which will accrue a benefit, but on the other hand we cannot
disallow or prevent the basic scientific research that exists in
this country which will enable us to make those large
groundbreaking research efforts in the future. Our concern is
whether that will be allowed.
Our other concern is that we must ensure the independence of
researchers. We must ensure that they have the intellectual
independence and freedom to pursue the study and groundbreaking
research that is inherent to the university setting.
Another option the government has in the industrial research
setting is to provide the tax incentives which will enable
industry to do that research.
One of the things that Reform has always said is that because of
the high taxation levels the government imposes upon the
corporate sector it is not able to do the required research.
When we speak to the people who want to do this research they say
“We would love to do the research but we cannot do it because
our taxes are so high. Furthermore, we cannot retain the top
notch scientists that we need”.
The Minister of Health explained that he wants to retain those
people. Reform believes that we should retain those people.
They are some of the best and brightest in Canada and in the
world. In fact, almost 10% of our population lives south of the
border, not only because of the money but because of the
opportunities that are provided within those research institutes.
These people go south because they have an opportunity to live
and work in cutting edge environments. It is not because they
have more money in their pockets, although for some that is
certainly a benefit. More importantly, as researchers, in their
hearts they truly believe they can do more for humanity by
working in an environment where they have the tools which enable
them to be the best they can be.
Canada does not provide that now. What I hope the Minister of
Health will do is speak to his colleague the Minister of Finance
and say “Cut your taxes”. If we cut our taxes, the corporate
and industrial worlds will be able to engage in the research that
will help Canada move forward. By doing so, we will improve our
economy, retain our best and brightest, reduce our brain drain
and strengthen our economy.
Another thing the Minister of Health needs to look at, and this
is related to the research aspect, is the situation in health
care in Canada today. We have had a debate recently on this
issue and I think it is important to put it into context.
We talk about the basic humanity of health care, and about
preserving, maintaining and ensuring that Canadians get the
health care they need. However, the cold hard reality is that in
1999 Canadians are not receiving it. We have a two tiered system
of health care in Canada today. There are those who receive
health care and those who do not. Every tenet of the Canada
Health Act is being violated. It is a myth to say that we will
support the status quo because the status quo is killing
Canadians.
1050
One of the principles of the Canada Health Act is accessibility.
That principle has been broken. Having 200,000 people on waiting
lists for surgical procedures is not humane. It is not good
health care.
If the minister wants to do something about it he needs to talk
to the Minister of Finance and say “Return the $21 billion you
took out of health care so that Canadians can get the health care
they need when they require it”.
The second principle is universality, but we are not all
covered. In fact, 84 essential procedures were delisted within a
period of eight months in 1997. That is continuing to occur in
the provinces because the provinces do not have the money to pay
for what is demanded.
Reform recognizes the cold, hard reality. We have a situation
today that is different than when the Canada Health Act was
formed in the 1960s.
The Canada Health Act has noble, important principles that we
would like to support. In fact, we do support them, but the
reality is that in 1999 the situation is different. We have an
aging population. The population of those over the age of 65
will double in the next 30 years. These people use 70% of our
health care dollars.
Among OECD nations Canada consistently ranks in the lowest third
for medical technology because governments do not have the money
to buy new technology, to buy the MRIs that will give Canadians
the health care they should be getting.
The minister likes to talk about publicly administered health
care. The cold, hard reality is that in 1999 the federal
government only supplies 11% of health care. For every health
care dollar that is spent the federal government only contributes
11 cents. Fifty per cent comes from the provinces and 30% comes
from the private sector.
That means that people who have the money will get
physiotherapy. If they have the money they will get home care.
If they have the money they will get new drugs. If they do not
have the money they will not get those things.
As a physician I have worked with these people. It is cruel and
inhumane to watch a sick, elderly spouse take care of a sicker
spouse without the help of home care because they do not have the
money to pay for that home care.
We have cut into the muscle and bone of health care in Canada
today. Patients are being discharged earlier and sicker. Who
pays the price? It is the sick patient, the poor and the middle
class who pay.
We would like to see the principles of the Canada Health Act
strengthened, but we have to look at the reality of today. We
have to ensure that the poor and the middle class have
accessible, affordable, universal health care where we can get
the best bang for our buck.
Money does not grow on trees. That is the reality. It is easy
for people to say that anybody who opposes this wants an American
style two tier health care system. That is utterly false. There
are no members on either side of the House, particularly members
of the Reform, who want an American style two tier health care
system. Everyone in the House abhors that with every bone in
their body. That would mean that people could not get health
care, in particular the poor and the middle class, because health
care would be determined by the money they have.
There are 200,000 Canadians on waiting lists who are suffering.
It is inhumane to tell a person of 70 years, who may only live
for five more years, that they have to wait a year before they
can get their hip replaced because of the waiting list and there
is no money to pay for it. That person will spend 20% of their
remaining life in severe pain. That is not humane medicine.
That is not what Tommy Douglas wanted. That is not what the
Canada Health Act is about. The Canada Health Act does not
support that. We do not support that. I am sure that every
member in the House does not support that.
1055
I encourage the Minister of Health to ask Dr. Friesen and other
scientists to look at what we in the Reform Party would like to
do. We have to see the reality of today: an aging population,
more expensive technologies and fewer people working to pay the
taxes that will provide the base for public health care. We want
to strengthen our public system and we want to look at the best
models to do that.
Let us not throw the baby out with the bath water. Let us not
criticize provincial premiers like Mr. Klein who is not satisfied
with thousands of suffering Albertans on waiting lists. He wants
to find ways to make sure those people get health care when they
need it. If the Minister of Health wants to get on his high
horse, rip out $21 billion from the provinces and tell Premier
Klein that he cannot provide health care for people on waiting
lists, then damn him. It is the people out there who are
suffering.
There are people who would try to polarize and poison this issue
and prevent debate. When they say that we want an American style
two tier health care system they are doing it for political
advantage. Who pays the price? The poor and the middle class
are not getting health care today and they will not get it
tomorrow. We want to change that. We want to make sure that all
Canadians have equal access to good quality health care and that
there is enough money in the system to provide that health care.
If the minister wants to improve health care, I would suggest he
do it through the CIHR. He could look at existing studies that
have been done by Canadians on the head start program. If there
is one fundamental thing that can be done to prevent many social
ills, it is to look at an early intervention program using
existing resources. I am talking about prevention, not the
expensive management of problems.
There are models such as the Moncton program, in which the
Minister of Labour was a leader, the Perry preschool program in
Ypsilanti, Michigan, and the Hawaii head start program. What
have they done? With a minimal amount of money, and with $6
saved for every dollar invested, they have reduced child abuse
rates by 99%, they have reduced youth crime by 60% and they have
reduced teen pregnancies by 40%. The benefits accrue all the way
along. There is less dependence on social programs, less
dependence on welfare and fewer kids dropping out of school. In
my province of British Columbia 30% of kids drop out of high
school. It is a recipe for economic disaster.
In May 1998 the House passed my private member's motion calling
for a national head start program. Reform has given to ministers
and the government a plan of action to save thousands of
children's lives and to save the taxpayer potentially billions of
dollars. I would personally like to see the ministers of
justice, health, HRD and finance get together to look at adopting
this plan. It has a 25 year track record. It is affordable to
the taxpayer. It will save the taxpayer money. More
importantly, it will save the lives of Canadians, especially our
children.
That is what the government could do in its children's agenda.
It could have this early intervention head start program for all
Canadians, using existing resources. It could use the medical
community at time zero. It could use trained volunteers in the
middle, which is what they did in Hawaii. It could use schools
for the first few years of schooling. That strengthens the
parent-child bond, improves parenting, makes sure kids have their
basic needs met and avoids a lot of the trauma that is so
devastating to children when their brains are developing.
Current research shows very clearly that in the first eight
years of life a child's brain is very sensitive. When a child is
subjected to abuse, sexual abuse, drugs, the witnessing of abuse
or even more subtle things such as improper nutrition, improper
parenting, a lack of boundaries and discipline, then that child
suffers intellectually and psychologically, which has a profound
impact upon that child's ability to empathize, sympathize,
cognate and have appropriate interpersonal relationships with
other individuals.
1100
One of the most devastating occurrences in the country today,
particularly in some communities, is the issue of fetal alcohol
syndrome. It is a hidden tragedy. It is the leading cause of
preventable brain damage in children.
The average IQ of persons with fetal alcohol syndrome is 68.
They cannot cognate. They cannot rationalize. They cannot
understand. They cannot learn like we can. They are poisoned
before they are even born.
The government has done nothing about that and it needs to do
something about it. I have a bill in the hopper on that issue
too. It is a way of preventing the devastation that is wrought
on these children, a way of preventing them from having their
brains poisoned so they will have a chance to grow up on a level
playing field, to grow up to be integrated and productive members
of society instead of never getting a leg up in society and never
being the best they can become.
Another issue that the minister should look at, for which I
place full blame on him and his colleagues, is the issue of
smoking. In 1994, mere months after the government was elected
to office, the Liberals reversed a trend in smoking that had been
going on for the previous 15 years. For 15 years prior to that
smoking consumption had been progressively going down. Yet
because of a smuggling issue the government was faced with a
problem, how to deal with the smuggling of cigarettes because of
the different prices in Canada and the U.S.
How could it do that? The government had two options. The
first one, which was proven to work, was to put an $8 per carton
export tax on exported cigarettes. That would have cut the legs
out of smuggling in cigarettes completely, as was proven in
1991-92.
The government also saw from that experience that when an export
tax was put the tobacco companies, those purveyors of death said
it could not do that because, if it did, they would leave town
and be very angry.
Instead of doing the right thing, standing up to the tobacco
companies and saying that it would put on an export tax because
it is important to decrease smuggling, the government compromised
the health and welfare of Canadians, particularly children, by
dropping the tobacco taxes substantially and reducing the price
by virtually 50% along with the provinces in central Canada. Now
we are reaping what was sown in 1994.
In the last few years in Ontario there has been a dramatic
increase in consumption. This is not news. In 1994 Health
Canada warned the Minister of Health at the time that more than a
quarter of a million children would be picking up cigarette
smoking as a direct result of the government's decrease in
tobacco taxes and that half those children would ultimately die
of tobacco related diseases.
Government members did not do the right thing and put on an
export tax. Rather they comprised the health and welfare of
every Canadian, particularly children. They put their tail
between their legs and dropped the tobacco taxes, knowing full
well that it would commit a quarter of a million children to
smoking and that half those children would wind up with chronic
obstructive pulmonary disease, early heart disease, peripheral
vascular disease, strokes, numerous types of cancer and numerous
other problems.
That is the legacy of what the government did in 1994. It
introduced the single greatest devastating health care act to
affect Canadians in the last 50 years.
The facts today are proving what we said in 1994. If the
government wants to truly deal with smoking and kids, it will
deal with education but it will also put tobacco taxes back where
they were in 1994 and put an export tax of $8 on each carton.
This would accomplish two things. First, it would decrease
consumption among kids and, second, it would cut the legs out
from any smuggling initiative. That is what the government needs
to do and ought to do, yet it has not.
1105
Another issue I would like to raise is the issue of the manpower
about which the CIHR need to warn the government very carefully
and closely. We have a significant manpower shortage.
If we look at the nursing population, in the next 11 years there
will be a lack of 112,000 nurses in the country. There are
nurses today that have graduated, and I was asked last night why
we do not hire more nurses. Why are they going down to the
United States? They are going to the U.S. because governments do
not have the money to provide jobs for them.
It is not that there is not a demand for them. There is a huge
demand for them. As testimony to that are the 200,000 people on
waiting lists, but the reality is that governments do not have
the money to pay them. Therefore they are going south where they
can try to get jobs.
Another issue is the area of medical specialties. We will have
an enormous lack of medical specialists in the very near future:
surgeons, internists and specialists in dialysis. This is what
the government has to face and deal with now so we can train
people to care for Canadians as we get older and to care for our
children. This is a critical shortage that no one is talking
about. The CIHR may want to warn the government of this
impending disaster.
In summary, we will support the CIHR bill up to committee stage.
We will be very interested in seeing what the government has to
say about it and, more important, what the researchers have to
say.
I would also stress that the government has to look at the
reality of 1999. We have an aging population, more expensive
technologies, and less money to pay for what we want. There is
also a greater demand for things that are not covered today such
as home care, drugs and dental services.
I might add that when the Canada Health Act was constructed the
whole body was taken into consideration except for the mouth, the
entry into the body. By ignoring that, a great deal of morbidity
was caused among the poor and the middle class of the population
who do not have the money for proper dental care. It is another
unseen and silent problem within society today.
We also have to recognize today that we have a multi-tiered
system. People who can afford it get the services. They queue
jump or the rich go south of the border. Whereas the poor who
would like to have physiotherapy when they are rehabilitating but
cannot because they do not have the money, are forbidden to get
it.
The Minister of Health continues to ignore that if people need
physiotherapy, home care, certain drugs, or care that is
essential to their health, they are actually prevented from
getting it in 1999 because they do not have the money and it is
not covered. The number of services not covered are expanding as
time passes, and they will increase. The gap between what we
demand of our health care and our ability to supply it will also
widen.
Let us find a way in 1999 to live up to the ideals of Tommy
Douglas, to live up to the ideals of the Canada Health Act, and
to provide an affordable, accessible universal health care where
no Canadian will be economically disadvantaged by becoming sick.
We do not want that.
The reality today is that not only are Canadians waiting longer
for surgery. It has become so appalling that in the province of
Quebec many patients have to wait two months for radiation
therapy for cancer treatment.
Can we imagine the shock of being diagnosed with cancer, with
breast cancer or prostate cancer, and being told by a doctor that
we will have to wait two months to get radiation therapy? Is
that good care? That is not good care and no one in the House
would support it. That is what is going on today. That is what
we have in 1999.
The province of Quebec is so desperate, as is my province of
British Columbia, that it is sending people south of the border
at a cost that is far greater, five times what it would cost in
Canada.
1110
Premier Klein said that he would not accept the fact that
Canadians were sick, that the poor and the middle class had their
health care withheld, that they suffered and were sent to the
United States where they had to pay five times what they should
pay for service. Premier Klein is looking for a way to provide
for the care of these people without destroying the health care
system and to make sure they get care when they need it.
At the end of the day the only thing that really matters is sick
people get health care when they need it. It should not harm
them financially in any way. It should be affordable to the
taxpayer. That is the common objective of the Reform Party, and I
would suggest all members on all sides.
We must have the courage to move forward. We must have the
courage to recognize the reality of today. We must have the
courage to open our minds to dealing with new and innovative,
modern and effective solutions to make sure that sick Canadians
get health care when they need it. That is our objective as
Reformers. I am sure it is the objective of members across party
lines. We would like to see it happen and we would like to see
it happen now.
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to take part in the debate on Bill C-13. I will start
off by stating that we are, of course, in favour of the bill.
I can clearly remember the 1993 and 1997 election campaigns. In
1993, Bloc Quebecois leader Lucien Bouchard called upon the
government to make considerable investments in research in
general, but in health research in particular. He based this on
an OECD report to the effect that Canada was lamentably behind
in this area.
I would like to focus on three major principles in my speech.
I will try to explain what the Canadian Institutes of Health
Research are, and why it would have been simpler, even if we are
in favour of additional research in this area, for all this to
have gone through the provinces. We will have the opportunity
to remind hon. members of the billions cut from transfer
payments to the provinces, nearly $7 billion of them to health.
These $7 billion cuts were imposed unilaterally.
When the time comes to make cuts, co-operative federalism no
longer applies. The Minister of Health and the Minister of
Finance do not sit down with their colleagues to find out how
the wealth can be divided while destabilizing the provinces'
finances as little as possible. That is not how it was.
I will remind the House as well of the requirements of the
Government of Quebec and the members of the Bloc Quebecois,
since we will be moving amendments to Bill C-13.
Why will we have to move amendments? My colleagues know why—
the members for Rosemont, Chambly and Jonquière—the role of the
Bloc Quebecois is to work for an independent Quebec. It should
not be too long now before that is achieved.
Second, work will have to be done to improve the government even
more. There is no need my telling members that this work is
exhausting, such a heavy task it is.
We support the principle of Canadian institutes of health
research. Obviously, because of the environment, health
research has changed. The field is increasingly complex and
requires increasingly sophisticated technologies.
Some claim that, with the sophistication of the technologies,
between 1950—if I am not mistaken, the year you were born or
were about to be born, Mr. Speaker—and now, our life expectancy
has increased by one year every four years. It is extraordinary
to think that people lived to an average age of 40 at the turn
of the century, and by the 1960s were living to an average age
of 60.
1115
The average age of people today, if we take men as our example,
is 76 years. We are talking of men who do not smoke
excessively, eat fairly well and look after their health
determinants. I will come back to this.
In the case of women, the situation is even more interesting,
and I am sure no one here will be upset by it. Life expectancy
for women is closer to 83 years. People can hope to enjoy the
company of the women in their lives, on average, for 83 years.
All this reminds us that the major health determinants,
technologies and environmental and health research are
increasingly complex.
We also have increasing requirements for more resources to buy
equipment and to carry out health research. While a few years
ago scanners and equipment for health research and development
may have cost $2 to $3 million, such equipment can now easily
cost $10 million, $15 million, $20 million or $25 million, not
to mention the fact that the life cycles of this equipment are
getting shorter and shorter.
The health sector has changed and it is a good thing that Canada
and the provinces can face new challenges.
We support the establishment of Canadian institutes of health
research and we also approve the four major research areas in
which they will be involved. As the minister pointed out, an
acting governing council has been established. It would have
been a good thing to have the provinces take part in the
appointment process for the acting governing council, and that
this be spelled out in the bill.
I will get back to this governing council, which will make
extremely important decisions.
The lawmaker was right in not specifying in which areas health
research institutes will be established. However, the acting
governing council will become permanent and will have the power
to decide in which sector these health research institutes will
be set up.
There will be four major areas and I will talk about them,
because hon. members are dying to find out about them.
The first area in which Canadian institutes of health research
can conduct research is a very important one, namely basic
research in the biomedical field.
I should point out that at least 60% of all biomedical research
conducted in Canada is done through companies located in Quebec.
This is not surprising, since research in brand name
pharmaceutical products relies on tax incentives that were
devised by the Quebec government and that apply in Quebec.
On average, research helps produce about 20 new drugs every
year. I could talk at length about research cycles.
I do not want to name any pharmaceutical companies because I
have too many friends in that field to give preferential
treatment to one over another, but between the time a molecule
is isolated in research and a drug is patented for use against a
disease, 10 or 20 years may well have gone by. This is a highly
complex process that requires millions and millions of dollars.
It can easily take close to $300 million to get a drug onto the
market.
Biomedical research is one of Quebec's strengths. I am sure the
Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health agrees. I
believe there are even some companies located in his riding in
the east of Montreal, and I am sure he agrees with me that it is
very important for funding to be available to ensure the
continuation of research in this field.
What does this mean, concretely? I would hate to be like
Professor Calculus in Tintin, talking around in circles, without
giving our viewers any concrete examples. What exactly does it
mean to get a drug onto the market?
1120
I will give the example of AIDS. As hon. members know, AIDS
came on the scene in the early 1980s. At that time it was
dubbed the gay plague, a figure of speech but a very evocative
one, because it was so closely associated with a specific group.
A whole generation of people lived with the AIDS virus, for
which there were then no drugs. Now, the battle has been won.
AIDS has gone from a fatal disease to a chronic illness.
Generally speaking, people are no longer dying of AIDS.
Triple therapy, which is a combination of drugs, came along. It
is, of course, still an ordeal to be a person living with AIDS.
It is an ordeal for these people personally and for their
natural helpers, but nonetheless it is possible now to live with
AIDS. This is in large part due to biomedical research.
I would like to see all parliamentarians join with me in
offering our most sincere congratulations to BioChem Pharma, a
Quebec company responsible for a number of drugs that have
contributed to our winning out over AIDS and no longer dying of
it. AIDS has gone from a fatal disease to a chronic illness.
That initiative required an investment cycle of
several millions of dollars. This makes it all the more
important for governments to provide tax incentives.
I am not saying we should not discuss the balance to be achieved
between the role of the patent drug industry and that of the
generic drug industry. On the contrary, such a debate should
take place.
The hon. member for Rosemont will certainly address this issue
in his speech. We in Quebec feel we have achieved that balance;
we do not hesitate to encourage, through real and significant
tax incentives, the development of the patent drug industry,
which is one of Quebec's finest industries.
Public authorities, and particularly the health department
masterfully steered by Pauline Marois, one of the best health
ministers we have ever had at the National Assembly, do not
hesitate to put on the list of available medication generic
drugs that are equivalent to brand name drugs, when these may
save taxpayers some money.
So, one of the research areas to be considered for Canadian
Health Research Institutes is that of biomedical research in
which, as I pointed out, Quebec is a leader.
Clinical research is the second area. Applied clinical research
is a very important area, since it plays a fundamental role in
the discovery of new drugs.
Here, I would like to digress for a moment. I am not very proud
of the government in that area. I have a natural tendency toward
fair-play.
I tend generally to remember the good things the government
does, when they happen, but I must also recognize the bad ones.
Let us assess the entire drug licensing system. I have been
interested in this since 1993, when I elected to represent the
people of Hochelaga—Maisonneuve in the House of Commons with a
very solid majority. Not as solid as that of the member for
Chambly, but I was still proud of my majority.
I want to say that the system of licensing drugs is not up to
par in Canada. Changes are necessary, since it is not uncommon
for companies to choose to submit their clinical monograph in
the United States in order to get their drugs approved, even
though the research was done in labs here, in Quebec or in
Ottawa.
I ask all parliamentarians to take note and to help me put
pressure on the government so that we may soon review the drug
licensing system, which has two great shortfalls.
When we look at what happens in the States, relatively speaking—
we all know that the population of the States is ten times that
of Canada and that the money invested in health research is not
the same.
In relative terms, ten times the number of people are working on
drug licensing in the States as in Canada.
1125
The system of organizing work at the health protection branch is
not the most effective to ensure a reasonable time between the
submission of a clinical monograph and the arrival of the drug
on the market, to ensure the wellbeing of our fellow citizens.
There is as well an important third area of research, health
systems services. Health systems raise questions for all levels
of governments.
I understand one of the roles of the Canadian health research
institutes—there will be between ten and fifteen—in addition to
biomedical research and applied clinical research, will also be
the business of analysing health systems and services.
Politics aside, all governments, be it the government of Ralph
Klein in Alberta, Lucien Bouchard in Quebec, or Mr. Tobin in
Newfoundland, are wondering whether we have organized our health
system for maximum efficiency and effectiveness, so that it can
deliver the best possible services to the public. They are
asking themselves some questions.
For instance, all governments have envisaged some sort of
ambulatory care formula—virage ambulatoire in Quebec—for ensuring
that the public has health services when needed, but that stays
in institutions are kept to the shortest time possible. This is
what the shift toward ambulatory care is all about: getting
people back to their normal surroundings as quickly as possible.
Health systems are also facing a number of problems which, if
managed effectively, could suggest promising solutions.
As I pointed out, for instance, people are living longer, with
the result that there will obviously be tremendous demands on
the system at some point, because it is inevitable that, between
the ages of 60 and 90, we will in all likelihood require varying
degrees of health care.
Of course some are in better shape than others but the demand on
health services does not generally come from people in their
20s, 30s, 40s or even 50s.
If I were to ask all hon. members here to raise their hands if
they needed to call upon the health services between the ages of
30 and 50, I do not think there would be many hands to be seen,
for this need generally arises in one's 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s or
even 90s. In fact, the elderly no longer belong to a single
group known as the third age. A new term has been coined, the
fourth age, because people are living longer and longer.
The Bloc Quebecois caucus is always pleased to salute our
seniors.
We invest a great deal of time in our fellow citizens of mature
years, whether they are in social housing, in specialized
resources or in their natural surroundings. We are always
pleased to salute them.
Besides biomedical research, clinical research and research into
health systems, the fourth area that will be supported by the
Canadian Institutes of Health Research is that of cultural
society and population health. This is something that needs
considering.
It must be admitted from the outset that people do not all start
off life on an equal footing. It is an error to think that a
person born in Anjou and a person born in Saint-Henri start off
life the same, will age in the same way, will cope with life in
the same way. It is wrong to think so, and this leads us to the
whole matter of health determinators.
We are now aware that all is determined before the age of five.
That is what is called early childhood, and the more stimulation
a child has, the better his or her early interpersonal
relationships, the stimuli in life, the better his or her
personal growth will be.
1130
I have no hesitation in paying tribute to the government, which
has invested considerable sums in help in early childhood. It
is of course a provincial responsibility, but I must recognize
that the government has done an excellent thing, and I think all
my colleagues have benefited. I refer, naturally, to the
community action program for children, the CAPC.
I recognize it. I said so earlier. I can be critical, but I
can also be motivated by honest fair play. The CAPC is a good
program. I am sure that my colleagues will offer the government
a good round of applause.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Réal Ménard: The determinants of health are found in well
designed programs to meet the needs of a specific clientele,
infants in this case. I repeat, it is between the ages of 0 and
five that everything comes into play. This is when the brain
develops. This is when we learn to take in information and to
create meaningful relationships with people, which will last a
lifetime. This is what determines our intellectual directions.
There is no need for me to tell members that I had the good
fortune of belonging to the category of children receiving a lot
of intellectual stimulation. I thank all those who have made
the process possible, especially my mother and my twin brother.
In my early childhood, while we were not rich, we were not
lacking for affection. We lived in fairly close proximity.
My identical twin, René, and I have fairly different characters.
He is active in sports. My only sport is jumping to
conclusions, but I do train a bit at the gym. I must say I was
very happy then. I remember those moments with great joy. He
went to École Victor-Doré, because he had cerebral palsy, and I
went to a regular school, but at the end of the day, we kept
each other abreast of the day's events.
I think that contributed a lot to my intellectual development.
It is in fact my intention before June to invite my twin brother
René and to introduce him to my colleagues, even though some
have thought that people are not quite ready for two Ménards in
the same political party.
I will continue by saying that the health research institutes
will reposition research.
It is extremely important to make sure that the areas to be
covered by health research information will indeed be covered.
A strategic repositioning will take place in health research to
solve major medical issues. While we are pleased about the
progress made in science, we are aware that some answers have
yet to be found.
Since my two colleagues are here, I am taking this opportunity
to stress that one area of research in which we will have to
invest in the coming years is that of heredity, genetics, the
human genome.
The timing is good, because later on I will explain how Quebec
has a number strengths in research. I mentioned biomedical
research. There is, of course, cancer research.
Quebec has very definite strengths.
There is also AIDS research. Quebec was one of the first
provinces, one of the first nations to conduct research on AIDS.
I am thinking about Dr. Weinberg's expertise. Dr. Weinberg is a
member of the international institute for research on AIDS. He
is the chair of that organization.
I know that the hon. member for Jonquière will make an eloquent
presentation on genetic engineering, which is a strong sector in
Quebec. This is why my colleague—who is incidentally an excellent
member of parliament and a hard worker who keeps on top of her
files—is very involved in making sure that the riding of
Jonquière, which she represents here in the House of Commons,
will get a health research institute specializing in genetic
engineering.
I do not want to anticipate on this topic, because the hon.
member will be addressing it. She has a much better grasp of
what is going on in this area than I do.
1135
I have no doubt that the government will be won over by the
arguments in favour of selecting her region as the hub of all
genetic engineering research, because the institutes in question
are not physical structures. We are not talking about mortar
and brick, but about virtual structures.
Those of us here know something about the meaning of virtual
because very often, during oral question period, we have the
impression that the answers the government is giving us are
virtual too. So we can speak with authority about matters
virtual. The future CIHRs will be virtual; they will not have a
new physical location, but will bring people together in a
network. We are speaking of establishing networks.
I will give an example of the region my colleague, the member
for Jonquière, comes from. If it is decided to establish a
genetic engineering research institute, research will be
concentrated in this region, but there may be information from
Saskatoon or Halifax, because all researchers will be able to
access the network, and the most up-to-date information will be
available to all members of the research community with similar
concerns.
I must admit that this is the great thing about the institutes
being proposed in Bill C-13.
Research will thus finally be broadened—I use this word
deliberately—and decompartmentalized. Wherever researchers are
concentrated, they will be able to stay abreast of what is being
done by their counterparts elsewhere. This will, we hope,
create a vigorous environment that will benefit the public and
contribute to the development of researchers.
If I understand what the government intends to do, funding for
these institutes will follow the normal curve.
I think we used to learn in statistics—perhaps not so much in
law—that the normal curve of distribution is bell shaped. I
understand that investments in the Canadian institutes of health
research will peak at $500 million. One has to admit that it is
not a mere pittance. Indeed, it is a considerable amount. It
will allow an increase in our capacity by investing in the
development of researchers.
Incidentally, I would like to draw attention to a fact which the
minister glossed over, but which I believe is worth mentioning,
and that is the fact that the Medical Research Council will be
abolished.
This bill contains transitional clauses. There are basically
four main granting agencies in Canada: the Medical Research
Council, the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council,
the Natural Sciences Research Council, and the National Research
Council, the latter being involved in supporting industrial
research in the private sector.
If this bill is passed—and I understand that it is reasonably
well received, although I will comment further on this later on,
because the Bloc Quebecois is motivated by its search for
excellence as it has always been—we will have the opportunity to
move amendments which I dare hope will be supported by the
government.
The Canadian institutes of health research will promote
interdisciplinary and integrated health research. This is
important, because very few research fields are self-supporting.
When research in genetics is carried out, it obviously can have
some impact on research on populations. For instance, research
on diabetes can change our understanding of health determinants.
It all hangs together. One of the merits of the Canadian
institutes of health research would be to promote greater
interdisciplinarity.
As I said on many occasions because I feel it is quite crucial,
this will encourage exchange of information between researchers.
It will also encourage innovations in the field of research and,
to conclude on this particular issue, it will further advance
health research application in Canada and in Quebec.
1140
Earlier, I referred to the interim governing council made up of
34 eminent Canadians. If need be, I could easily list them;
there are quite a few celebrities among them.
I am thinking of Dr. Friesen of the Medical Research Council of
Canada, which will be abolished. There was also Mr. Bryden, from
Ontario. One of the most eminent members to whom I want to pay
tribute today is Michel Bureau, of the Fonds de la recherche en
santé du Québec, the FRSQ, the main granting council in the
province of Quebec. He played a key role in drafting this bill.
I believe I am correct in assuming that the FRSQ will appear
before the committee.
I could also talk about Ms. Nadeau, associate professor in the
department of psychology. Psychology is certainly one field
where more knowledge is needed and it is certainly something
politicians should know how to use.
I could also mention a distinguished professor from the faculty
of law whom I had the pleasure of meeting myself in my Montreal
office. She is an ethics specialist. Members know how important
ethics are in politics. It is even more so when one has to
develop research protocols to ensure that, if humans are asked
to take part in research, it will be done with all due respect.
I thank Bartha Maria Knoppers—I know she will recognize her
name even though I am not pronouncing it correctly—for making
herself available and for talking to me about what we should
expect from the Canadian institutes of health research.
There is also Dr. Robert Perrault, medical consultant and heart
disease specialist. He is the director of public health in
Montreal.
This is an impressive group of people. They worked very hard. I
thank them for what they did, as did the Minister of Health. I
want members to know that they organized their work. The
minister announced the establishment of the Canadian institutes
of health research last February. They formed a number of
committees.
They formed these committees to be more effective, and I would
like to list them. They organized their work using as their
starting point a legislation committee. One of their mandates
was to advise the minister on enabling legislation. I will
return to that later.
They also had a subcommittee on planning the institute, a third
one on programs and a fourth very important one on peer review.
Hon. members must realize that all committees that are to award
fellowships must be governed by the principle of excellence.
Fellows must be selected on academic merit, the intrinsic merit
of the research is what determines a recipient, not political
affiliation. That has nothing to do with it.
Peer committees are therefore important. Peers must be the ones
to make decisions.
They must examine the documents. Care must be taken to ensure
that, in each sector in which a research institute is created,
the most knowledgeable people at the leading edge of research in
that sector are the ones to assess applications. That is what
peer review is all about.
There was a fifth committee as well, focused on knowledge. Then
there is partnership and marketing. I will take it upon myself
to point out to hon. members, although I cannot imagine them not
knowing this, that there are two major categories of research.
There is basic research, which deals with theory and has no
connection with marketing. This is research for the sake of
research, like art for art's sake.
Then there is applied research, which of course has a very
specific goal. It is very often sponsored by the private
sector. It is aimed at a very precise application.
1145
The last committee, and I already touched on this, is the ethics
and policy committee. It is concerned with people who will be
taking part in the research as guinea pigs, let us not mince
words. Its area of expertise concerns the need to respect their
status, on the need for a policy of informed consent always and
on the need to ensure that people taking part in research
projects know the effects of the products tested.
Could the Chair please tell me how much time I have left? I
think I have used up half of my time, but I want to make sure
that I do not forget some critical elements.
Anyway, if I have something to add, at the end of my 40 minutes,
to fully cover the subject, I will ask for unanimous consent to
have more time. But it would make things easier for me if you
could tell me how much time I have left.
The institutes will be headed by a governing council and there
will be a president and advisory committees. I believe that it
is important to see a few things. I do not know if the cameras
can close-up on this acetate, but that would be very instructive.
You are indicating that I have only six minutes left. I still
have many things to say. However, I am confident that there will
be unanimous consent to allow me to continue.
Each of the research institutes will operate as follows: there
will always be a secretariat, and divisions on basic activities,
on clinical activities, on health systems and on culture and
health, which are to some extent the determinants. The same
model will apply for everyone.
I would also like to speak—I did not realize it would go by so
quickly—of a number of things, and, in particular, of one thing
that must be considered. The government cut $21 billion in
transfers to the provinces. That is a cut of nearly $7 billion
to health care and social services. This was money the provinces
were counting on.
Even though we are pleased about the Canadian institutes of
health research, even though for all the reasons I have given we
will support the project, would it not have been simpler for the
government to allow the provinces to assume this responsibility?
Before establishing the Canadian institutes of health research,
should the government not first have returned transfer payments
to their 1993 level?
I want all parliamentarians in this House to realize that the
Government of Quebec was deprived of $1 billion in transfers.
That is $1 billion annually to manage a department of health, as
Pauline Marois is doing with vigour. I will show correlations
and demonstrate in specific terms what the cuts mean.
If we take all the cuts made since 1993 in Quebec's budget, we
are talking about 20% of the cuts in all the hospitals of
Quebec, about the closing of half of Greater Montreal's
hospitals, about hospitalization costs for 370,000 persons,
about the salaries of half the nurses, about all the operating
budgets of all Quebec's CLSCs and, lastly, about the cost of all
the youth services offered by the health care system.
The government cannot ask us to discuss such a bill if we are
not able to remind the government that it acted like a
highwayman, like a common thief. It had no respect for the
provinces; it deprived them of resources. This is a government,
in health care, that did what the worst offenders hesitate to
do, it misappropriated funds. I repeat, and there is a consensus
among opposition parties, this is a government that has
literally stolen from the provinces. It should know that anyone
who does that is called a thief.
1150
I hesitate to mention this, but I felt it was my duty to do so.
This will not, however, prevent us from supporting the bill in
principle.
We will be introducing amendments because, when I read the bill,
I nearly had heart failure, and I am in good shape. In law, the
preamble to a bill has an interpretative function. It is not
insignificant.
It states:
Whereas Parliament recognizes the role of the provinces in
health care and that the Government of Canada collaborates—
Does it not take some nerve to mention “the role of the
provinces” in a bill?
Needless to say that the first thing we will do in committee is
introduce an amendment emphasizing the central role of the
provinces under the Constitution. Is there anything more well
established, since the days of the Tremblay commission ordered
by Maurice Le Noblet Duplessis, is there anything clearer in the
minds of Quebecers than the prerogatives of the National
Assembly and the nine other legislatures when it comes to the
health sector?
The very least we are entitled to expect of a bill such as
this is that it would state clearly that the provinces have a
preponderant role.
I note that my time is running out. Mr. Speaker, I seek
unanimous consent to speak for approximately five more minutes.
If my colleagues agree to grant me an additional five minutes, I
will be most grateful, because there are things I feel bound to
share with the House and I think that, as a general rule, when I
rise to speak, it is value added.
We are going to support the bill. We are going to work hard in
committee. We have submitted a list of witnesses, but I would
need another five to ten minutes to fully address the issue.
So, if you would be so kind as to ensure, in a spirit of open
co-operation, that I am not deprived of my time, I would be very
grateful, Mr. Speaker.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. member for
Hochelaga—Maisonneuve has asked for the unanimous consent of the
House to extend his speaking time by five minutes. Is there
unanimous consent of the House?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard: Mr. Speaker, I am sure there is a mistake.
Would you check again please? I am sure that there is unanimous
consent because we are now working in a spirit of camaraderie.
We support the bill. Please check again.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): There is no unanimous
consent.
[English]
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to have an opportunity to participate in
the debate at second reading stage of Bill C-13.
At the outset, I will indicate that my colleagues and I in the
New Democratic Party support the spirit and the intent of the
bill. We appreciate the fact that this legislation represents a
strategic repositioning of health research in Canada. In our
view, it does seek to broaden the idea of health research and it
appears to advocate and promote a new way of dealing with health
research in the country today. It promotes a multidisciplinary,
multisectoral and cross-regional approach to health care. It
provides us with a way to look at the social, cultural and
environmental determinants of ill health. These are all very
important objectives and we support the intent of the bill in
that regard.
We do, however, have some concerns with respect to the specific
wording of a number of clauses in the bill. We look forward to a
thorough analysis and debate at the committee stage of the bill.
We also look forward to hearing the views of folks across the
country concerning the bill. In that process, we hope that we
can actually improve the bill and come back with a piece of
legislation that has solid support right across the country.
1155
Obviously, when one looks at a bill like this and addresses the
whole matter of health research in Canada today, one has to ask
the question whether or not it meets certain fundamental
objectives.
Our task today is to take this legislation and square it with
the government's agenda as a whole because the bill on its own,
in isolation of a broader approach that looks at the absolute
necessity of looking at health care in its most broadest sense,
is doomed to fail unless we have a complete agenda.
Before I proceed to raise criticisms or make some constructive
suggestions around this whole approach, I will also join with
members in the House in acknowledging the work of those who
helped create this evolution in the country around health
research, and those who worked so hard in helping to draft the
bill we have before us today.
I certainly want to add my thanks and congratulations to Dr.
Henry Friesen, who has provided leadership to the country as head
of the Medical Research Council for a long period of time, and
who has worked very hard to move that model toward the one we
have today, and who in fact talked himself out of a job.
I also want to acknowledge the work of the interim governing
council that spent hours and hours on deliberations that led to
the bill before us today. I understand that the work is just
beginning. If one looks at the purpose of the bill, which is to
create virtual institutes of health research, the interim
governing council has already received somewhere in the
neighbourhood of 150 proposals for such institutes. It will be
the task of the new permanent governing council to weed that
number down to, as I understand it, 10 to 15 institutes.
There are enormous challenges ahead for those experts who have
been involved in the process, and very significant challenges for
those who will have to take this legislation and implement it in
a meaningful way that addresses the concerns of all Canadians.
All the best research in the world will come to naught unless we
have the political will, the federal government leadership to
actually implement the findings of research and to act on
research that is pursued in the country.
Today, we are in an interesting position. We are on the eve of
the 10th anniversary of the Ed Broadbent resolution in the House
of Commons, supported by all members from all sides of the House,
calling for the elimination of child poverty by the year 2000. We
know, by all accounts, that rather than looking forward to an
improved situation as we enter the new millennium, the situation
has become much worse.
As my leader has said many times in the House, we have not only
failed to stop poverty among children in the country, the
government has also been responsible for seeing a huge number of
children added to the rolls of poverty. We know that since 1989,
one in seven children lives in poverty. Since 1989, 500,000
children have been added to the rolls of the poor.
Let me add something from a Winnipeg perspective. I come from a
constituency that has a very hard-pressed community. In the
inner city of my constituency, in the heart of Winnipeg, in a
neighbourhood called Point Douglas, new statistics released this
past week show that 60% of children live in poverty. Six out of
ten kids in my community go to school with empty stomachs, are
not able to learn and are likely to suffer health consequences.
My point here is that if we do not make the links between health
research and action, we will not address the root causes of ill
health and the spread of disease.
1200
The government has had study after study showing the direct
links between poverty and ill health. The minister himself
released a study this past summer at the health ministers
conference in Charlottetown showing that in many respects we have
a much more serious situation than we have ever had when it comes
to children, young people and aboriginal people. The facts are
there.
We know from other centres, for example the centre of excellence
in Winnipeg, the Centre for Health Policy Research and
Evaluation, that there is a direct link between ill health and
levels of income. The more money people make, the more income
they have, the better their health. Knowing that, why has this
government stood still? Why has it not initiated serious policies
to address this matter and reduce poverty especially among
children?
The Minister of Finance has told Canadians of the tremendous
surplus of close to $100 billion over five years. Considering
the benefits of the current economic situation, why has the
government not moved to use some of that money to address
poverty, to put meaningful policies in place, to look at a
national child care program and meaningful early childhood
development programs? On that score there has been virtually
nothing. There has been no translation of a very significant
research finding into action.
Another example that comes to mind shows the absolute imperative
of translating research findings into action. As members know,
today the Minister of Health is meeting with the tobacco
industry's most celebrated whistleblower, Jeffrey Wigand.
Yesterday the Minister of Health released thousands and
thousands of pages of documents that had been under lock and key
in Great Britain. The documents show that the tobacco industry
over the last number of years has deliberately targeted young
people and has ensured the products they create will get nicotine
into the system faster to ensure young people are addicted more
quickly and that there is a lucrative market for the sale of
cigarettes.
Hot off the wire I understand the Minister of Health has
announced that he is hiring Jeffrey Wigand as an adviser to him
and his department on matters pertaining to tobacco. Bravo. Good
for him. I hope that is true. I hope that means the government
is finally serious about acting on programs that will curb
tobacco addiction and smoking among young people.
The government has known for a long time about those statistics
and it has done nothing. In July 1997 I wrote to the Minister of
Health and suggested to him that considering the gravity of the
situation it would make sense to translate the results of the
research findings into action by introducing higher taxes on
cigarettes. This is something the government repeatedly refuses
to do. I suggested to the minister that he had an obligation to
launch a lawsuit against the tobacco industry as was done in the
United States as a result of the work of Jeffrey Wigand and
others in exposing the malicious intent of the tobacco industry.
I suggested subsequently that he not simply point to B.C. as an
example of something being done in this country in that regard,
but that he should actually take up the charge, show leadership,
work with provinces like B.C. I am sure all provinces are
interested in pursuing this. I said that he should put together
a national suit against the tobacco industry to recoup costs to
our health care system caused by that kind of irresponsible
profit seeking agenda of the tobacco industry. To date, there has
been nothing. This is a perfect example of where research and
good findings do not translate into action.
What we need today to go along with the bill is a clear
commitment to act on those findings, to show political will and
provide leadership.
1205
Today we have have heard, and it is inevitable that we are going
to get into this discussion, that this is tied inextricably to
federal funding and national standards for health care. Clearly
if we are serious about pursuing a holistic approach to health
research and translating those results into improvements for our
system as a whole and for the betterment of the health of all
Canadians, then it is inevitable that we focus on the state of
federal financing for health care. It is inevitable that we
demand once again that the government look at its abdication of
responsibility and its failure to ensure the full restoration of
cuts in transfer payments for health care that it initiated when
it came into power in 1993. It advanced this very specifically in
1995 with the implementation of the CHST. This elimination from
our health care system was the single biggest cut in funds in the
history of medicare.
It is very important that we address that point of view. I am
tempted to call the Reform members on their attempts to disguise
their true agenda. I think many of us in the House feel a sense
of indignation when we know that the health critic for the Reform
Party will stand up today and talk about the need for universal
health care and ensuring that the most vulnerable citizens in our
society have access to health care, all the while advancing a two
tier American style health care system.
We are seeing a clever disguise from the Reform Party. I do not
think there is any question about that. All we have to do is
look at some of the quotes from the member himself going back a
couple of years. The member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca said in
1996, “In fact a two tiered health system will strengthen the
public system, not erode it. In a two tiered system those who
choose to go to a private clinic will receive faster and better
care than their counterparts in the system. Is this an unequal
system that provides for different levels of care? Yes”. His
leader, the hon. member for Calgary Southwest, did the same when
he said, “If they are willing to pay, they could get themselves
a higher standard of care and quicker access”.
That is the true agenda of the Reform Party members. That is
really what they are talking about. For them now to try to
disguise it and to suggest that their support for Ralph Klein's
privatization initiative will not do anything to contravene the
principles of the health act and will not deny access to
Canadians is absolutely fallacious and dishonest.
We in the House must work together to convince the government
that it has to increase transfer payments for health. It has to
show leadership. It has to ensure that we have an increased
budget and a significant and stable funding base for health
research, if we are truly going to improve the status of
Canadians and be true to the principles of medicare.
There are some very specific concerns in Bill C-13 which I would
like to quickly enunciate in the time I have left. One of our
biggest concerns, and I am sure we will hear more about this in
committee, is whether or not this legislation advances our agenda
for independent scientific investigation into the root causes of
ill health.
Time and time again we have been faced with cutbacks in funding
and an approach on the part of the federal government to
deregulate and offload wherever it can. Academics, researchers,
universities and think tanks are put in a very difficult
position of having to increase their reliance on corporate
donations, meaning pharmaceutical manufacturers and private
insurers. All of this undermines the very independence that is
so necessary for the integrity of the system. It creates very
serious possibilities for conflict of interest.
1210
There is a litmus test to be applied to the bill. Does it ensure
that we advance down the path of truly independent research? Does
it involve a significant level of funding to ensure that we do
not broaden the whole agenda to a series of private-public
partnerships which will undermine the very objectives we have in
mind as we pursue this bill? In that regard, we have three very
specific concerns.
A clause in the bill refers specifically to “facilitating the
commercialization of health research”. In our view that is
vague and potentially dangerous phrasing. It would be our hope
to hear from witnesses in committee to determine whether or not
it would be worthwhile to reword that clause to ensure that the
public interest is clearly paramount and that any kind of
commercialization agenda is secondary to the public good. That
is one concern.
The second concern has to do with the governing council as
outlined in the bill. Our concern is that it is very loosely
worded and not clearly prescribed in the legislation. Again this
allows the possibility for control by the industry, particularly
pharmaceutical manufacturers for setting the agenda.
It would not be unique or new to suggest that specifics on the
governing council should be entrenched right in the piece of
legislation. That can be done expeditiously at committee. We
should be ensuring that the appointment criteria for members of
the governing council are specifically defined and that the
public voice be absolutely dominant in that configuration.
Finally, we have a concern about the whole issue the minister
raised today pertaining to ethics. He suggested that the vague
wording in the bill which says “will take into consideration
ethical issues” is sufficient. It is certainly our view that it
is too vague. It leaves too many possibilities again for
corporations, pharmaceutical companies and other research
institutions to pursue research that might be less than ethical.
I think that we will hear suggestions in committee about the
need for an independent arm's length body that is directly
accountable to government. Given the changes happening in our
society today around reproductive technologies, xeno
transplantation, human cloning, we will hear that we absolutely
need an ethical framework for determining research of the future.
We need an independent body to help us sort through what is the
appropriate way one uses human research subjects, how one
notifies individuals involved in this process and what protective
measures can be put in place to deal with those concerns.
To wrap up, I would suggest that this bill is worth looking at
in detail at committee. I hope the concerns I have mentioned
will be addressed. All of us are interested in strengthening
this bill so that there is a central focus on the causes and
prevention of ill health, in particular the social, economic,
cultural and environmental determinants that have a very direct
impact on health and well-being in this country.
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Mr.
Speaker, I know the hon. member was in the House listening
intently this morning to the minister and the other members who
spoke.
The health critic for the Reform Party concentrated a great deal
on comments he and his party made last week in regard to a two
tier health system. If I am not mistaken, the hon. member for
Winnipeg North Centre is very much opposed to that, as am I. I
find it really strange that a member of parliament from an
opposition party would stand in the House defending himself more
than actually speaking on the bill that we are debating.
1215
Basically, I would like the member's comments on the Reform
Party's position with regard to a two tiered health system.
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Speaker, as the member who
posed the question, I too feel offended by the way in which the
Reform Party critic has portrayed his position to the public
across Canada today.
I think, as I said before, that this is a clever disguise or a
clever ruse for fooling the public, because the record speaks for
itself. The Reform Party has time and time again been on the
record saying that what this country needs is a parallel,
private, for profit system, that what this country needs is a two
tier approach to health care, that what this country needs is an
avenue by which those who have the money can pay for the services
that they need. It says this without addressing what happens to
the universality of our system and without addressing the long
term effects on comprehensiveness and accessibility.
I think it is appropriate that on the very day that we are
discussing this issue and hearing that kind of doublespeak from
the Reform Party that we look back to the architects of the
Canada Health Act, Monique Bégin, Tom Kent and the daughter of
Tommy Douglas, Shirley Douglas, all of whom are speaking out on
this issue. In fact, as we speak a press conference is being
held with some of those architects who are very, very concerned
about Ralph Klein's proposal, very concerned about Reform's
position and in fact have said that medicare, based on equal
access to comprehensive care, will barely survive the beginning
of the new millennium without dramatic corrective action on the
part of the federal government.
First, the federal government must intervene immediately and
stop the Klein government from contracting with for profit
hospitals.
Second, the money cut from the federal transfer payments must be
restored for investment in the public health system.
Third, the federal government must exclude health and social
services from all trade agreements.
The architects of the Canada Health Act believe that the kind of
proposal we are hearing from the Reform Party would be absolutely
contrary to the principles of the act, would be a fundamental
shift away from medicare as we know it today and would end up
costing Canadians much more down the road.
I am glad to see that the Conservative critic for health care is
with us on this one and we look forward to pursuing a
consolidated, united position, holding the federal government to
account and demanding that federal transfers increase and that we
preserve the principles of medicare.
Mr. Reed Elley (Nanaimo—Cowichan, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
have a great deal of respect for my colleague from the New
Democratic Party. We have co-operated on a number of issues over
these past couple of years as we have sat together on the health
committee.
Of course on this whole debate on health care many proposals
will be made. Many proposals are already being made. However,
the fact of the matter is, and I think my hon. colleague will
agree with me, that we have seen an abysmal lack of leadership on
behalf of the federal government, which is supposed to be the
custodian of health care in this country, to take any kind of
initiative and to actually renew health care.
If proposals which have come from the Reform Party, or any other
party, the member's own party for that matter, are not debated in
a sensible way, where emotion will not run riot, we will not get
answers.
In view of those kinds of comments, I ask my hon. colleague if
she is prepared to lay at the feet of the government the
responsibility for the demise of the health care system. Is she
prepared, along with Canadians right across this country, to
offer concrete solutions that are not embedded in 1960s
philosophy, but really take into account what is happening in
Canada today?
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Speaker, first of all I am
quite prepared, as the Reform member suggested, to hold the
federal government to account for the crisis we are facing in
health care today.
1220
He knows that we have constantly spoken out about the cuts made
to transfer payments by the government and how that has put
enormous pressure on the federal system and opened the door to
private sector health care. He knows that we have called the
government to task for signing an agreement with Alberta in 1996
which allowed for the growth of private clinics in that province.
Yes, I agree that we are seeing an appalling and abysmal lack of
leadership from the federal government. However, I would also
say that we are seeing an appalling lack of leadership from the
leader of the member's own party. In fact, just two days ago the
leader of the Reform Party in response to a question said “I
think there is room from the federal angle to open up the Canada
Health Act so that if the provinces want to pursue other options,
including greater involvement of private resources, they have the
freedom to do so”. What the Reform Party, Ralph Klein and Mike
Harris are talking about is retreating, going back to the old way
of doing things before we had medicare when if we had the money
we could get the care we needed and, if not, tough luck.
The member is saying that we are in a crisis today and we agree
with that. The question for all of us is, how do we solve the
problem? I would suggest that the only way to solve the problem
is to work to innovate and strengthen our public system and
ensure that the medicare model is preserved, not destroyed as the
Reform Party would have us do. He asked for alternatives and
solutions. I suggest to him that there are many.
The National Forum on Health has made some very important
observations about how to reform the system within the public
model. It has talked about the need to look at a continuum of
care and to move toward a community based model of holistic
health care. It has talked about including home care, continuing
care and drug care under our plan. That would address some of
the costs and the pressures coming from the private sector. The
New Democratic Party has put together a long set of
recommendations and a very thoughtful analysis of this situation.
I would be happy to share them with the member.
I would ask him to join with us in holding the government to
account and preserving our publicly administered, universally
accessible system, and not take one more step down the path of
destroying and dismantling medicare.
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Mr.
Speaker, it is a pleasure to take part in this debate today. I
remind the House that this is the first major health bill to come
before this parliament. I think many of us were anticipating
this and looking forward to the debate. I want to remind the
viewing public that we are debating an act to establish the
Canadian Institutes of Health Research, what I will refer to as
the CIHR, and to repeal the Medical Research Council Act.
The fact that this is the first major debate on a health bill
before the House is significant. We have had many debates on
health care in the last couple of years, but no bills of any
significance have come before the House. I want to remind the
House of some of the issues we have spoken about in regard to
health care.
One of them, of course, was the hepatitis C issue, which the
government completely mishandled. We went on for days and days
seeking a fair, just and compassionate solution for all hepatitis
C victims, and a generous solution on the part of government in
terms of assistance to those victims. We fought and raged for
days, but the government held its position. Today not one
hepatitis C victim has received any support from the federal
government. In fact, a huge number of them were left out of the
package.
We also debated at length in the House the draconian cuts to
health care, which goes back to the previous speech given by the
NDP member.
We are talking about a government which took $17 billion out of
health care. I see you shaking your head, Mr. Speaker, but it is
true. This year during the budget debate the government
proclaimed that its budget was a health care budget, that it
would return $11.5 billion of the $17 billion it took out. That
will bring us back to the levels which existed 10 years ago.
1225
The government does not have a lot to brag about. However, this
bill is worthy of debate and it is worthy of support. I want to
state very clearly from the beginning that I support it and the
Progressive Conservative Party supports it. I think it is a very
worthy initiative.
Because it is the House of Commons I guess we have to be a
little political, but I want to mention some of the issues on
which the government has swallowed itself whole from time to
time. I will talk about the hypocrisy of government. One item I
will talk about is the Drug Patent Act, which was brought into
the House about 10 years ago when I was a member of parliament on
the government side.
Mr. Speaker, do you remember that? You stood in the House and
raged for hour after hour, condemning the government for bringing
in the Drug Patent Act. I want to remind the public of that for
one very good reason. The Drug Patent Act had a purpose behind
it. It relates to the very bill we are talking about today. The
bill that we are speaking about, of course, will bring research
scientists together so that we will have a network of the
scientific community sort of singing from the same song book,
exchanging and sharing information, with some funding from the
federal government.
The minister today mentioned the term brain drain. He said, and
I agree with him, that this act will do something about the brain
drain. That is what we had in mind when we brought in the Drug
Patent Act in the early 1990s because what Canada was missing was
a great deal of expertise in terms of scientific and medical
research. Those people were leaving the country in big numbers
and drug companies had no patent protection in this country in
comparison to other industrialized countries in the world. We
brought in legislation which provided them with that protection.
The argument of the day was, why would companies invest millions
and possibly billions of dollars in research if someone else
could steal their patent within a handful of years? It was a
very deliberate attempt by our government of the day to bring in
protection for the research community in this country and it has
worked. This bill should go some distance in reinforcing that.
It will be remembered that the government promised to rescind or
take away the Drug Patent Act, to change it dramatically.
Obviously it has not done that because it would not be in its
best interests. However, in opposition I suppose it was
politically a pretty popular thing to say at the time and, of
course, I have reminded you of some of the speeches you made, Mr.
Speaker.
Taking office is something like a lynching in the morning. It
sort of focuses the mind. That is exactly what happened when the
Liberals took office in 1993. The government then decided that
maybe this was not such a bad idea after all, and we still have
it.
The government has tagged on to some of the initiatives we took
in the past. Being totally honest, some of them were not very
popular and some of them are still debatable. However, some of
them were worth embracing and certainly the present government
has done that, and I commend it for doing so.
The government has gone one step beyond adopting what previous
governments have done in actually grabbing and taking ideas right
out of an election platform.
1230
I would like to speak about Jean Charest's plan for Canada's
next century. That is the platform on which I ran in the 1997
election. I will step through some of what we were talking
about. I want you to listen carefully, Mr. Speaker, to see
whether or not you agree with what I am saying. There is a
direct link between the present bill and what we had in our
platform in 1997. I am accusing the government of lifting the
idea right out of our platform in 1997.
Mr. Charest spoke about health care for the future on page 27 of
his plan. He talked about our health care system needing
flexibility. He said we should continue to adopt new medical
treatments. He said specifically that new pilot and experimental
programs would provide Canadians with state of the art, cutting
edge services and treatments and new technologies to improve the
access to care in rural and remote areas of the country. The
minister spoke specifically of rural areas today. He said there
would be programs to test new integrated delivery systems aimed
at providing health care based on the highest quality and best
practices. Again, the minister mentioned that this morning.
Mr. Charest also spoke of the development and maintenance of a
Health Canada worldwide website on the Internet to provide a
state of the art health care information system, including advice
on the prevention and treatment of illnesses to help hospitals
and researchers link their knowledge bases. He spoke very
specifically about linking the knowledge bases in the country. In
fact that is what the new agency will be doing. He spoke about
working closely with the provinces and territories to reduce
unnecessary health care expenditures that result from duplication
and reinvest the savings back into the fund.
This is almost word for word what we were saying in the 1997
election campaign. The Progressive Conservative Party said that
it would create a national institute for health with memberships
drawn from the health care field. The board would be co-chaired
by the federal minister and provincial territorial ministers.
To conclude, we said we would co-ordinate the gathering and
distribution of information on research and new medical
technologies with an emphasis on disease control, ensuring that
Canadians benefit from the best and the latest medical advances;
assist in the development and publication of national health care
targets and goals; and measure, evaluate and publish progress
toward achieving these targets.
I think the message is pretty clear. The government obviously
thought it was a good idea and it is adopting it. We are pleased
to support it because the idea really came from our platform in
1997. I guess that is one of the advantages of being in power.
They can just take whatever part of whatever works and call it
their own. Maybe there is nothing new in that at all.
Canada has had a history of advances in medical science. I want
to go through some of the names. The minister mentioned this
morning Best and Banting. I would like to mention a couple more.
One is Sir William Osler, who wrote the medical textbook
Principles and Practices of Medicine. He introduced the
idea of clinical care. Another is Dr. Wilder Penfield who
established the Montreal Neurological Institute and made many
discoveries in the area of brain functions.
Today we have that same excellence taking place in the country.
One thing I ran across in The Economist, of all places, was
a procedure. Maybe that is not the best word to describe it, but
it was out of the Ontario Cancer Institute.
It devised a way of using high frequency ultrasound to check
within a few hours after the first dose of chemotherapy being
administered to find out whether or not the anti-cancer treatment
is working. The article went on to explain that most cancer
treatment, despite the billions of dollars that are poured into
it, is by guess and by hazard in terms of whether or not the
treatment is actually working.
1235
Dr. Gregory Ozamota and his colleagues devised a new method of
detecting whether or not a cancer treatment is working within
hours of administering it so that patients in the future
hopefully will not have to go through some of the tough
medicines, the harsh chemicals in terms of treating cancer, only
to find out that the treatment is not working. That is an
advancement that is taking place today in Canada. This new
institute will foster that type of advancement.
Canadians, as I have mentioned, are not strangers to huge
advances in medical science. Despite our small population base
of 30 million people, we have had some very notable achievements
within the country.
One of the things the new institute will do is sort of bridge
the gap between what a scientist wants to do, or is driven to do,
and the need within Canadian society for that service. There
will be a linkage between the two so that we will not have a
scientist going out on his own pet project, to simplify it,
without any payoff to the greater society at the end of the day.
Funds will be channelled in such a way that there will be a real
identified need within society for the research to be ongoing.
That is an important distinction to make, an important point to
make.
The theoretical side of science and the absent minded professor
are always talked about. I read an article not long ago about
Einstein. It mentioned that sometimes scientists are so focused
that they are focusing on their research without focusing on the
greater need of society or where the research will actually take
them. The new institute will give some of our scientists a
little more direction to reach the goal at the end of the day.
The story goes about Einstein that he was so indifferent to his
surroundings that on more than one occasion he arrived in his
laboratory in his pyjamas. I am not sure if that is happening
today in Canada, but focusing our funding in the directions as
outlined in the bill is a very important part of the new
institute.
Another thing we would like to see happen to which the minister
has alluded in the past is the drug approval process. I think it
can happen. The other day it was brought to my attention that
there is a new drug out called Rituxan. It is a cancer treating
drug that has been tied up by red tape in the drug approval
process. I want to point out what has happened in other
countries. This drug has had great success in the treatment of
some cancers.
In just about every industrialized country in the world this drug
has already been approved and is on the shelf. I will give an
example of some of those countries.
1240
In Australia, Rituxan was submitted for approval in May 1997. It
was approved in October 1998 and the launch date of the drug in
that country was October 1998. Germany applied on March 21,
1997. The drug was approved on June 2, 1998, and went on the
market on November 26, 1998. The United States moved a little
faster. The drug was submitted for approval in February 1997 and
approved on November 6, 1997. The launch date was December 15,
1997.
I have no way of knowing whether or not the information I have
is correct. It was provided to me by the department. Rituxan
will not be approved for use in this country until late in
December, if in fact it does happen. That is two years after the
United States. Many of our patients are going to the United
States to get this drug.
I am hoping, and the minister has alluded to it, that the
process in Canada can be improved upon. It is not that we want
to do it in a hasty fashion because no one wants to see that
happen. However, I get the feeling we get tied up in red tape
and are not sharing information with other Canadian jurisdictions
which might possibly lead to a speed up in the approval process.
This is something I think we can look forward to.
There are many things we cannot mention, obviously. A Reform
member went to great lengths today to distance himself from some
remarks he made with regard to a two tier health care system in
Canada. I might possibly face some questions on that point, but
I was a bit dumbfounded by some of the comments made by the
member last week, and this week in attempting to distance himself
from those remarks. I mention this only in the context that we
are debating a very important initiative by the government. I do
not think we should be sidetracked by other issues despite
the difficulties some members from time to time get themselves
into when they pronounce policies and positions that are not
sustainable.
With that I will sit down and entertain questions and comments
from other members.
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have
listened to our colleague's speech from inside and I gather
that, before all parties can agree on a bill that would finally
grant additional funding to health research, many concerns need
to be raised, particularly with respect to the will to ensure
that no research institute designation will be made with no
regard to the provinces.
I would like to ask our colleague, through you Mr. Speaker,
whether his party would support an amendment that would
explicitly give, within the bill, a more active role to the
provinces when it comes to the establishment of Canadian
institutes of health research.
[English]
Mr. Greg Thompson: Mr. Speaker, I think most of us will
bring forward amendments on the basis of what we see in the bill.
I think the point the member is making is a commendable one. It
is one that we certainly have concerns about.
I am glad that he did get on his feet because the structure of
the Canadian institutes of health research lends some questions
to the integrity of the system.
1245
The minister tells us and the bill spells out that the CIHR will
be led by a president and a governing council, who together will
be responsible for the overall direction of the institutes.
Members of the governing council will reflect the highest
standards of scientific excellence and so on. It goes on to
explain what they will do.
One of the concerns we have is that every one of these
appointments will be by governor in council. In other words,
cabinet will decide who these people are. I think that process
has to be re-examined as to how these appointments are made. Are
they there at the pleasure of the government? The act tells us
that indeed they are at the pleasure of the government, up for
review every five years. That is a major issue we should examine
in committee and have more explanation on. As to the institutes
themselves, nobody knows. It is not spelled out in the bill.
I will talk about Dr. Chopra from Health Canada who sued Health
Canada under the Human Rights Act. He was one of the scientists
who testified on the shredding of documents that had to do with
the BST beef hormone issue. The word is the independence of this
body and the independence of the governing council and the
president. That is a very important issue that the bill has to
address and that we need more clarification on by the minister.
If the treatment that some people have received from the
government and the Department of Health is any indication of what
might come, this whole process will have to be examined a little
more closely and a little more transparently. We have gone
through the difficulty of where one person basically is making
the decisions. It is the Prime Minister of Canada who decides
who the president will be and who the members will be. There is a
real danger in doing that. I hope we can move beyond that.
I thank the member again for allowing me to get back up based on
his question. The other consideration is the review process, who
is accountable and the measuring stick. Are we going to wait
five years to determine whether or not the new body is
functioning efficiently without any reporting to parliament other
than tabling the document?
It is not a question of coming into parliament and reporting to
the committee on the structure and whether or not it is working.
It is simply blindly giving the government a blank cheque to set
up a process which I think should be reviewed very thoroughly
every year for the next five years to determine whether they have
done it right or not. Those are some very important points that
have to be made and that will come out in committee.
My party, along with the Bloc and his members, will be bringing
forth some amendments that we think will strengthen the bill.
At the end of the day, we support the initiative. We think it
is very credible. With some of these little deficiencies, if the
government is willing to look and listen, I think we can
strengthen the bill dramatically. We will then have a bill that
will indeed work for all Canadians.
[Translation]
Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am
very pleased to speak on Bill C-13, the Canadian Institutes of
Health Research Act. I am particularly pleased because, along
with many other hon. members, I have been working on this issue
for more than a year.
We were very happy to hear about the establishment of these
institutes in the 1999 federal budget and we are also very
pleased to have this bill before the House today.
1250
I believe the establishment of the Canadian institutes of health
research is a truly visionary and forward-looking initiative that
will directly address one of the major concerns of Canadians: to
increase our knowledge of health issues in order to try to get
rid of illnesses and health problems affecting so many
Canadians.
Bill C-13 is a huge step in the right direction, since it will
ensure Canada's competitiveness in the knowledge-based global
economy.
In fact, this bill, along with the 21st century chairs for
research excellence in universities across Canada that were
announced in the Speech from the Throne, will give Canada a
competitive edge as we move towards the next century. Canadians
will be world leaders in the generation of new knowledge.
[English]
I am also pleased to speak about the bill because of its
importance to the city of Montreal and to the people in my riding
of Pierrefonds—Dollard.
Montreal is a world-class health research centre. Health
research and development is playing a major role in revitalizing
our economy, creating jobs for our citizens and securing a future
for Montreal in Canada in the new economy.
Montreal is home to some of Canada's leading centres of academic
research. McGill University and the University of Montreal are
at the leading edge of Canadian health research. Research at
those universities is at the highest standards of excellence.
McGill and the University of Montreal are the second and third
largest recipients respectively of the Medical Research Council's
MRC funding in the country.
Researchers in those universities are extremely competitive in
funding competition. Their research is at the highest standard.
Concordia and the University of Quebec in Montreal should also
not be forgotten. Their research in the social aspect of health
is opening up new fields of knowledge about our health.
Given the excellence of science in Montreal and the quality of
our research, Montreal is the most successful of any city in
Canada in MRC funding competitions. The MRC invested $59.6
million in 1998-1999 in Montreal alone.
[Translation]
In Quebec, the Medical Research Council, or MRC, is allocating
$76.5 million for health research. That amount is proportionally
a greater part of the MRC's budget than Quebec's population is
in relation to Canada's.
I should also point out that the federal government and the
provinces are co-operating in the area of health research.
In Quebec, the MRC is actively funding research, while the
provincial organization responsible for health studies, namely
Quebec's Fonds de la recherche en santé, is developing programs
that complement those of the MRC. These two bodies have
established close relations which have obviously benefited
health research in Quebec.
I should also point out that the chair of the Fonds, Dr. Michel
Bureau, has been actively involved in the development of the
concept of health research institutes.
Since the MRC will be integrated into the research institutes,
and since these will further promote health research in Canada,
Bill C-13 is of paramount importance for Montreal and for all of
Canada.
[English]
Researchers in Montreal are working on new discoveries and
treatments that will benefit people across the country. The
Montreal Neurological Institute, the Institut de recherche
clinique de Montreal and the Royal Victoria Hospital are all
world-class centres of research addressing the key health
concerns of Canadians.
Private sector companies such as Merck Frosst and Astra have
secured worldwide research mandates at their research centres in
Montreal.
I will give one example of research in Montreal. Many people
might not know that one of the leading experts in the area of
genomic research is actually working in Montreal. It is widely
accepted that genomics, the decoding of human genetic structure,
potentially unlocking the keys to the treatment of disease, is
the leading edge of health science.
Dr. Tom Hudson is a major participant in the work of sequencing
the human genome.
He is an associate physician at the Montreal General Hospital and
a director of Montreal's Genome Centre. He is also the associate
director of the Whitehead Institute at the Massachusetts
Institute of Technology, one of the leading genomics research
centres in the world. He is also under 40 years old. In fact,
last year he was named one of Canada's top 40 people under 40.
1255
Instead of leaving for multiple opportunities in the United
States, Dr. Hudson splits his time between Montreal and Boston
working tirelessly to advance science in Canada.
Bill C-13 will support people like Dr. Hudson and continue to
provide opportunities for him in Canada.
[Translation]
This investment in research has an extraordinary impact on
Montreal and on all other Canadian cities. All researchers hire
laboratory technicians, graduate students and other staff, thus
creating more jobs in this innovative sector of our economy.
Research spinoffs may be the most critical factor for Montreal.
It is generally agreed that health industries will be one of the
key sectors of a knowledge-based economy. The pace of innovation
is very fast, and new research methods, such as genomics, are
opening the doors to new areas of knowledge.
As hon. members know, basic research is the foundation of health
industries, because it helps produce innovative goods and
services. This research activity is the engine of our economy
while also ensuring our competitiveness.
[English]
One only needs to look at the example of BioChem Pharma in
Montreal. BioChem Pharma has its roots in a research grant years
ago at McGill University. This research led to the discovery of
3TC which is one of the drugs which has turned HIV into a more
manageable disease. In fact, 3TC is now the leading HIV-AIDS
treatment in the world. BioChem Pharma now employs over 1,000
people in Montreal providing an innovative force to our economy.
There are hundreds of small Canadian start-up companies that are
seeking to move the knowledge gained from research into products
and services that meet unmet health needs. I think of Neurochem,
which is looking at treatments for Alzheimer disease. There is
Methylgene, which is developing leading edge anti-cancer
compounds.
The interesting aspect is that these are companies located not
in Boston, not in San Diego and not in Seattle. They are based
in Montreal.
The Globe and Mail recently had an article about how young
people are now coming to Montreal to participate in the
innovative economy. It mentioned the aerospace, the animation
and the biotechnology sectors. Montreal is well placed to be at
the leading edge of the knowledge based economy.
Bill C-13 is an important piece of legislation to achieve this
goal. The Canadian institutes of health research represent a
major investment in the knowledge and innovation needed to drive
our innovative economy forward.
It is also important to note that it will fund research, first
and foremost, that will seek to improve the health of Canadians.
The objectives in the legislation make that clear. It will fund
research that will promote the highest standards of ethics in
research. It will work in partnership with all sectors of the
research community to advance Canadian science. It will also
work to promote economic development and the translation of
research into benefits for Canadians.
[Translation]
The creation of a system of virtual research institutes is an
important innovation for Canada's scientific community. It will
bring together researchers and networks, ensuring that the
results of research can be used and further developed more
quickly.
The creation of institutes in sectors essential to Canadians
will focus research, bringing together studies from different
disciplines and making it possible to attack today's complex
health problems.
Increasingly, cancer research is predicated on genetic studies
and cellular studies, but it also requires analysis of the
environment's impact on cancer, as well as studies on the most
effective treatment of cancer patients in the health care
system.
Bill C-13 will make it possible to channel research
strategically.
Last month, with other MPs, I attended a breakfast meeting at
which Dr. Patrick Lee of the University of Calgary spoke about
some very encouraging observations he had made in his cancer
research.
1300
He has discovered mechanisms in reoviruses that can destroy
cancerous cells. The new cancer treatment he has come up with
has made headlines worldwide. Breakfast with Dr. Lee was a
fascinating affair; I was delighted to hear about the work he is
now doing in Canada. He turned out to be an excellent
ambassador for Calgary, Alberta and Canada.
Bill C-13 will support people like Dr. Lee, who are truly on the
cutting edge of health issues that concern Canadians.
[English]
In closing, it is important to mention that the Canadian
institutes of health research is first a question of health and
its funding will be through peer review. This is the only
determinant for excellent science.
[Translation]
I have no hesitation in supporting this bill, which will
represent a major investment in the health of Canadians and in a
more effective and innovative health care sector. I urge
members of the House to support it as well, so that Canadian
institutes of health research can begin their important work for
the well-being of all Canadians.
[English]
Mr. Reed Elley (Nanaimo—Cowichan, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
am certainly pleased today to join the debate on Bill C-13, the
Canadian institutes of health research bill.
At this time of an overall failing health care system in Canada,
I am pleased to see some encouraging news contained in this bill.
I also wish to offer a critique of Bill C-13 and to offer some
points on what I believe are the bill's shortcomings. I raise the
points of concern only in an effort to improve the bill. Overall
I believe that the bill is worthy of further support and my
colleagues in the Reform Party would want to give that support at
least up to committee level.
As I understand the bill, it is intended to take the place of
the Medical Research Council and provide a more direct and
systematic approach to research in Canada. Furthermore, the
primary objective of the Canadian institutes of health research
is to excel and build upon internationally accepted standards of
scientific excellence and research through the creation of new
knowledge and its translation into improved health for all
Canadians.
One of the primary methods that will be used is that of virtual
institutes through the Internet and other high tech
communications. The institutes will be made up of experts in
their selected fields.
The promise of addressing a portion of the Canadian brain drain
is a worthwhile discussion. I would agree that one of the
reasons we are losing our best and brightest from Canada to the
United States is the research dollars that are available. To
lose our best means that while they may have been educated in
Canada, we are losing them to a foreign country. The
consequences of this failing is like a row of dominoes. As the
first person leaves, the process becomes easier for the next
person, and so on and so on. Before we know it there is a flood
of people leaving Canada which is virtually impossible to stem,
unless there is a major change in the reasons that people are
leaving.
Why are people leaving? May I suggest that it is the lack of
incentive to contribute to our own medical and health research, a
lack of financial support for the employees and institutes that
they work at, and higher taxes.
We need to take corrective action. With some constructive
fixing I believe that the bill could be one small piece of the
solution to the brain drain, particularly in the medical
professions in Canada today. I believe there are a number of
concerns and ways that the bill can and should be improved.
I note that by the end of the second year the CIHR will have a
proposed budget of $500 million. This is up from the current
budget of $300 million. The addition of $200 million is a
substantial amount of money. However, I believe it to be prudent
to put some reasonable restrictions on the use of this money.
I fail to believe that without legislative regulations the
intent of today's debate will carry over to reality tomorrow.
1305
It is imperative that we set out a framework for the governor in
council to work under. Therefore, I believe the administration
costs arising out of the CIHR need to have a cap. Currently the
Medical Research Council administration portion of its $300
million budget is 4.5%. May I suggest that this level could be
maintained and perhaps even capped at 5%. To allow otherwise
often leaves open the door for future abuse of taxpayers'
dollars.
Under Bill C-13, clause 26(2), the CIHR “may borrow money,
issue debt obligations or grant or receive a security interest
only with the approval of the Treasury Board”. I fail to see
why the CIHR needs to have this capability. With an annual
budget approved by parliament, it is imperative that all
ministries, departments and crown corporations live within their
allocated budget needs. The future for any organization is built
upon the available resources. I can see no benefit in allowing
the CIHR the ability to borrow money even with the approval of
Treasury Board.
Remaining on the issue of finances, I would draw attention to
clause 26(1)(f), whereby the CIHR may for the purpose of
achieving its objective, license, assign, sell or otherwise make
available any patent, copyright, industrial design, trademark,
trade secret or other like property right held, controlled or
administered by the CIHR. While I do not disagree with the
premise of this clause, I would like to see the financial
benefits accrue back to the Canadian taxpayer. In other words,
when the above types of licensing agreements are granted, the
revenues revert to the CIHR and this lowers the financial burden
on the Canadian taxpayer.
I agree that individual Canadians do not need to take a back
seat to anyone or any other country when it comes to research and
development. They simply need the chance and the environment to
continue and complete their work. While I believe that Canadians
are willing to fairly contribute and ensure that innovative
medical research is undertaken in Canada, it is fair to say that
those same Canadian taxpayers want to see a return on their tax
dollar investment.
I am also interested in the individual projects themselves. It
appears there are two distinct and different ways of selecting
the projects. One approach is for the governing council to ask
for proposals on a given area of research. The governing council
would then review the submitted proposals and select them
according to peer review.
The advantage of this approach is that the issues of the day
will be sure to receive a given amount of research resources.
The disadvantage however, is that without strict guidelines, the
governing council runs the risk of being swayed by the political
agenda of the day. We must remain vigilant on this and ensure
that politics do not interfere and compromise our medical
research.
In consultation with health officials, it was confirmed that
there is an alternate route for those who wish to submit
proposals. Anyone may draft a proposal and submit it to the
governing council for peer review and selection. The advantage
of this process is that new cutting edge medical research will
find a forum for peer presentation. Individuals without
connections to major universities and other research centres need
to have an opportunity to present projects for research funding.
While meeting with the minister's staff regarding the selection
of the individual projects themselves, it was indicated that
there would be a balance between these two alternatives. I am
pleased to support this aspect of the bill, but believe that the
advantages and disadvantages need to be accounted for in the
regulations. This could easily be included within the operating
guidelines and subject to review by the Standing Committee on
Health.
Most recently, the present government has been in the debacle of
definitions concerning pay equity. The issue of scientific merit
enters into this debate. It is important that the preamble also
include a statement that indicates “Whereas parliament believes
that health research should provide support for research on the
basis of scientific merit”. This should be interpreted as
research funding based upon the validity of the project, not on
the basis of employment equity groups.
One aspect of this bill that requires strengthening is the
matter of ethics. We all recognize today that technology has
made great leaps forward.
The minister has stated that this is an important part of the
bill. I believe it can be further strengthened.
1310
It was not that many years ago that some of the routine
procedures used today would have seemed like science fiction:
organ transplants, fetal surgery, gene therapy and open heart
surgery, to mention only a few. Much can still be learned in
these matters. They routinely occur in many parts of the world
today.
I do not wish to use scare tactics and I certainly cannot
predict the future, however I believe it would be in everyone's
best interests to strengthen the ethical portions of the bill.
Let us have a process whereby when new issues arise which have
not yet been contemplated that researchers do not find themselves
lost in a morass of bureaucracy. Let us ensure that the future
is safe from deviation and questionable ethical decisions. Let
us ensure that these decisions are not left in the hands of any
one person or indeed in the hands of the bureaucracy.
One other aspect of the bill which I feel is important to draw
further attention to is clause 21. It states:
The Governing Council shall review the mandate and performance of
each Health Research Institute at least every five years after it
is established and determine whether its mandate or the policies
respecting its role and functioning should be amended or whether
it should be merged with another Health Research Institute or
terminated.
The importance of this particular clause lies in the history of
other government programs. All too often a valid government
program has been initiated with no end in sight. It just goes on
and on.
It is imperative that when this bill is enacted that clause 21
remain or even be strengthened. When a program has outlived its
usefulness, then it is time to eliminate it. The program may act
as a catalyst, however the program should not be an industry in
and of itself. Where a government program is not worthy of
further funding, then we simply must end the program and move on
to something else that is bigger and better.
The CIHR information states that there will be 12 to 15
institutes. I would ask that the future governing council and
Minister of Health bring this matter before the Standing
Committee on Health for input and development. If the CIHR is to
work effectively, it must not only have the support of the
government, but the support of the taxpayers as well. In order
to accomplish this the research must be seen to be without
political interference, without the view by the public regarding
validity and necessity and with the broad based support of
Canadian medical researchers.
While I favour the concept of private-public relationships,
stringent regulations must be built into this legislation. We
must be certain that such a partnership does not become an
opportunity for the government of the day to have the private
sector do its bidding. For any such program to work, there must
be a transparent, accountable process. Clause 4 states:
The objective of the CIHR is to excel, according to
internationally accepted standards of scientific excellence, in
the creation of new knowledge and its translation into improved
health for Canadians, more effective health services and products
and a strengthened Canadian health care system, by—
One manner in which the bill sets this out is in subclause 4(l):
Let us remember that the Government of Canada represents the
taxpayers of the country. As such, the taxpayers will not accept
any more Shawinigan shenanigans. I want to stress to the
government that it should get it right this time. When the bill
states “transparency and accountability”, let us have clear
regulations set out for the research institutes involved. Let
the bill and regulation adhere to standard acceptable accounting
procedures. Let the recommendations of the auditor general be
attended to immediately and not on a never-never plan.
While I believe that the intent of the bill heads us in the
right direction, I want to stress that since its introduction and
the subsequent briefing, there has not been sufficient time to
draw together an independent body of medical researchers to vet
the promises and premise of the bill.
1315
I realize that the Medical Research Council has played a large
role in this development. However, I feel it is imperative that
those outside the system also be given an opportunity to review
the bill and to give their input.
If the CIHR is intended to promote health and medical research
across the country then let us take sufficient time now to ask
researchers if it is in their best interest. If the researchers
who will be involved find that the proposed system will not work
or will work better in some other way, let us find out now and
change the system at its inception, not partway through the
process. Hopefully we can do this at the committee stage when
the bill comes to committee.
One aspect of the bill I have not yet addressed is the high
level of taxation that exists in Canada today. While the bill
addresses one part of the brain drain, even though the Prime
Minister refuses to take his head out of the sand and acknowledge
the serious problem, it is clear that high taxation is a problem
for medical research in the country.
As we go through this debate I would call upon the finance
minister to take direct action on the high rate of taxation
rampant in Canada today. Enough of the smoke and mirror shows
with promises one day, only to be reneged on the next. We need
lower taxes so more Canadians will stay in Canada to begin with
and those in the medical profession can do the research we so
urgently need.
No less of a body than the International Monetary Fund has
stated that Canada needs to devote the majority of the surplus to
lower our debt and taxes. I ask that the finance minister heed
these words and assist in the elimination of Canada's brain
drain, particularly in the medical professions.
Over the last 20 years our health system in Canada has been
failing Canadians. It is common knowledge that the government
has torn $21 billion out of the Canadian health care system in
the last six years. It is only prepared to put back a small
portion of that $21 billion into it. Canadians are paying a very
real price for this failing. The failing rests squarely on the
shoulders of the health minister, the finance minister and
members of the Liberal government.
Now is the time to fix it. Now is not the time to lay blame
where blame does not deserve to be laid. Premier Klein is not
the problem. He is attempting to solve a problem in his province
that has its root cause in Ottawa. By finding innovative
solutions the failing of the Canadian health care system can be
reversed and better health for Canadians will come about. The
status quo is not acceptable. We must move forward and seek out
real, new and innovative solutions. This bill may be a part of
that but we know that we can all do better.
In conclusion, I reiterate that at this time the Reform Party
will support the bill up to committee level. I believe that I
have enumerated ways in which the bill could be improved and
strengthened. Let us work together collectively to build a
better health care system, seeking ways to improve it and
certainly seeking ways to improve medical research that is so
important to the health of Canadians.
[Translation]
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am very
pleased to take part in the second reading of Bill C-13, the
Canadian Institutes of Health Research Act, to quote its short
title.
I am very happy to speak about the institutes of health
research, because this is an issue very dear to me, that I have
been following now for a long time.
In fact, as early as December 1997, I wrote to the federal
health minister to inform him of a genetics research project
being proposed by a research team from the area I represent.
I asked him to assess the merits of this research project to
determine if a grant was warranted.
1320
In June, I once again wrote to the health minister to invite him
to take the opportunity, while he was visiting my region, to
meet a research team interested in working at a proposed
research institute that could meet its needs.
Also, in October, in a letter sent to the health minister, I
asked if the federal government could provide some clarification
about the proposed establishment of a health research centre in
my riding of Jonquière.
I stressed in that letter that I was very open to any investment
in a specialized research centre.
[English]
Mr. Greg Thompson: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member because I am
listening intently to the debate, but we have two government
members and we do not have quorum in the House. This is the
first major health bill in the House in this parliament. The
government should be ashamed of itself.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): That aside, is the
hon. member for New Brunswick Southwest calling for a quorum?
Mr. Greg Thompson: Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what I am
doing. That is what I request that you do.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): We have a request
for quorum.
And the count having been taken:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Call in the members.
And the bells having rung:
1325
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): There is now a
quorum. Debate shall continue.
[Translation]
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold: Mr. Speaker, I thank my Progressive
Conservative colleague for calling to order this government,
which tables bills and goes on to show its “keen interest”. As we
have seen, it had to be called to order. Hear, hear.
I will now start where I left off. Last October, I sent a letter
to the health minister asking that the federal government give
some clarification on an investment project to establish a
health research centre in my riding of Jonquière.
In this letter, I indicated that I would be very receptive to
the idea of investing in a specialized research centre.
In a release in relation to this letter, I made the following
statement “If the government wants to announce major investments
for health research in Jonquière, I will be very happy. My party
and myself have long been asking that Quebec get its fair share
of investments in research and development. Good for us if our
region benefits from those investments.”
I will conclude this recapitulation by saying that, last week, I
sent the health minister another letter, in which I deplored
health care cuts imposed by the Liberal government since 1993
and the longstanding lack of equity in the distribution of
federal R and D investments in Quebec.
1330
I added that, naturally, consistent with the provinces'
jurisdiction over health, we supported the idea of receiving a
fair share of these new investments.
The reason I am taking this time to give a history of my remarks
and positions on this issue is that I want to make it very clear
that the Bloc Quebecois and myself have long been supportive of
the idea of reinvesting in research.
I also want this debate to be exempt from any partisan comments.
Following the dubious attempts of Liberal and Progressive
Conservative members to make political hay with this issue—I
could give a history of that, but I would probably run out of
time—I stated that this initiative should be judged on its merits
from a scientific point of view.
That is why I said, back in July, that it was clear to me that
researchers in the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean region were the players,
not Liberal or Progressive Conservative members. I added that
without researchers there would be no such initiative and that
it would be thanks to the excellence of the projects and the
quality of the team of researchers, and nothing else, that the
region could emerge as a winner.
As for the legislation before us today, the House probably knows
by now that the Bloc Quebecois agrees with its principle.
I believe every member recognizes that health is the most
precious gift we have and that research in this area will result
in improving the quality of life of our fellow citizens either
by preventing diseases or by curing those who are suffering from
diseases.
While the intent of the bill is laudable, it is nonetheless
ironical to see the federal government suddenly so concerned
about health issues, when we know how drastically it has cut
transfer payments for health to the provinces since 1993 and
reduced funding to the granting councils that allocate money to
scientists in the health field.
I remind the House that in 1993 the federal government
unilaterally and irresponsibly withdrew from health care
networks when it introduced the Canada health and social
transfer.
In fiscal 1999-2000, Quebec's shortfall in social transfers is
estimated to be close to $1.7 billion, $850 million of which is
lost every year in the health field. Since 1993, the cumulative
shortfall in the health field alone amounts to nearly $3.4
billion.
The Liberal government claims times were tough and it was
fighting the deficit. To this I say that people did not stop
being sick, and it is health workers and the sick who have been
hurt by federal cuts.
Diseases did not suddenly disappear when the Liberals came to
power, and yet they slashed research grants.
By so doing they delayed new discoveries and medical
technologies that would help us take better care of our fellow
citizens at a time when ageing will require more resources.
I am wondering where all these Liberal members who come parading
around in my riding were, when their government was making these
drastic cuts to health care.
1335
Did they fight to make sure that the health of the population be
considered a priority and be spared from these cuts? I have not
seen them very often, in hospitals or emergency wards in Quebec,
praising the health budget cuts made by their colleague, the
Minister of Finance.
An hon. member: Oh, oh.
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold: Mr. Speaker, I would appreciate it if
the hon. member opposite would let me make my speech. When she
makes her own, I will listen.
While we agree with the intent of the bill, we do not accept
everything in it. The Bloc will put forward amendments to make
the bill more acceptable.
For example, just to give members a general idea, in its
preamble, the bill does not recognize the provincial
governments' exclusive jurisdiction in the area of health but
presents them as mere collaborators with the federal government.
Here they go again with their mania in the area of health.
It should have been stated in the preamble that it is the
provinces' responsibility to manage health services within their
territory and that their agreement is needed in order to
encroach upon areas under their jurisdiction. We will ask that
this be specified.
Clause 14 of the bill provides that the governing council is
responsible for the management of the Canadian institutes of
halth research as a whole, unless it decides to delegate some of
its powers, duties and functions.
In the bill as it currently stands, provincial governments do
not have the authority to choose the research institutes and
they do not have their say in the strategic direction,
objectives and policies of the institutes.
Furthermore, even though clause 5(c) says that the institutes of
health research are to consult other stakeholders, including the
provinces, to collaborate and form partnerships with them, the
wording of the clause is very vague et clearly dilutes the
importance of the provinces by putting them on the same footing
as other stakeholders.
So, effectively, nothing will allow the Quebec government to
ensure that the institutes of health research will respect its
health priorities.
Moreover, it is important to point out that, throughout the
bill, reference is not made simply to health research, but the
more general phrase “issues pertaining to health” is used,
opening the door to an involvement that goes beyond the simple
research realm.
I will say once again that it is not the establishment of
institutes as such that is a problem for the Bloc Quebecois, but
the fact that there is a possibility of direct encroachment on
provincial jurisdictions in the field of health services to the
public, without serious consultation with the provinces.
It would seem that the federal government wants to put in place
parallel structures instead of supporting approaches taken by
the provinces. If this is not its intention, the federal
government should take advantage of the hearings on this bill
and co-operate with the Bloc Quebecois to make it clearer, to the
satisfaction of the provinces.
Through the Canadian institutes of health research, the federal
government must not try to get involved in areas that come under
provincial jurisdiction while forgetting that it is in large
part responsible for the indecent cuts and the dire straits
faced by the provinces in health care.
It is important that the legislative framework be properly
developed, because it must not infringe on provincial
jurisdictions, but rather complement these.
1340
For instance, in Quebec, there is a science and technology
ministry that is currently finalizing a new scientific policy
and which identified its strategic areas in health research,
namely mental health, cancer, genome and biotechnology.
During the committee hearings, we are determined to ask the
federal government to respect the particularities and the
strengths specific to researchers in Quebec regions, in order to
build upon their success and their skills in areas where they
excel. The federal government should not designate any institute
of health research in Quebec without the consent of the
Government of Quebec.
Improving the network for researchers in order to facilitate
information transfer is desirable. However, this should not lead
to federal criteria being applied or provincial areas of
jurisdiction being infringed upon. This is why it is crucial
that the Quebec government, which has jurisdiction over health
issues, take part in selection and management, in these
institutes.
I will attend the hearings of the Standing Committee on Health
concerning this bill and ensure that representatives of the
provincial governments and the researchers in outlying areas
like the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean are heard, so that this bill can
serve the interests of science and reflect Quebec's priorities
before serving the federal government's political goals.
In the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean area where I live, we already have
prominent scientists who, these last few years, have been
carrying out research in genetics and the human genome. We also
have researchers like Michel Perron, who is part of Groupe
ÉCOBES. Mr. Perron studies populations. As the hon. member for
Hochelaga—Maisonneuve said this morning, I think that the
expertise of the researchers from the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean
region has reached quite a high level. Their expertise should be
recognized through a health research institute. I will do what
is humanly possible to see that they get recognition for their
work.
The Bloc Quebecois is offering its support to the federal
government so this bill will really promote health research
while respecting federal and provincial jurisdictions and
improve the health of all Quebecers and Canadians.
[English]
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I am pleased to rise in the House today to discuss this very
important legislation dealing with the Canadian institutes of
health research as introduced by the Minister of Health earlier
today.
As Canada enters a new century, the Government of Canada, along
with the research community, recognizes that there is a
tremendous opportunity to transform the funding of health
research in Canada.
In 1998, a national task force on health research drew on the
views of leaders and stakeholders in the granting councils, the
teaching hospitals, the universities, the health charities, the
provincial health research agencies, the health institutes and
the business community. The task force proposed a major
transformation in our approach to health research and recommended
the creation of the CIHR.
By creating the CIHR, the Government of Canada has taken the
first step toward creating a national health research strategy
aimed at engaging all health research partners. This will
position Canada very well as we move into the 21st century and,
as such, is a very exciting proposition.
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Canada's health research community has been given the chance not
only to create Canada's premier health research enterprise, but
also to do something very important for our country. In the next
few months, the vision of a cutting edge, integrative and
collaborative health research community in Canada will take shape
and thus become a reality. That too is very much in keeping with
what Canadians want.
The CIHR represents a revolutionary approach to health research
in the country. It will reposition health research in a
strategic way, funding and co-ordinating all federally supported
research around an integrated health research agenda. This
integrated approach will help to identify gaps in current
research and lead to new strategies to address research
shortcomings.
A priority of the CIHR will be to make a good link between
health policy and good health research, in step with national
health objectives, which is very important. It will incorporate
the best of current approaches and practices to capitalize on
existing strength while avoiding disruption of the excellent
research work already under way.
There is a growing appreciation among stakeholder groups that an
environment is needed where all sectors of health research are
simultaneously welcomed, where areas lacking in capacity can be
bolstered, and where all health researchers are encouraged to
work together to solve complex and multifaceted health problems.
The opportunity to exchange ideas and findings with fellow
investigators is rare in the research world. Through this
collaborative approach, research results will be shared to
greater advantage and ultimately the creation and application of
new knowledge will in fact be accelerated.
Canada's diverse health research community has rallied around
the CIHR because they know that by transforming Canada's health
research sector, everyone wins. They continue to play a key role
in building this new organization as participants in a national
dialogue in the CIHR development, leading up to the establishment
of this key organization. In fact, this whole exercise to create
and design the CIHR has been done in a very transparent and open
manner.
The CIHR will bring together Canada's best investigators from a
full spectrum of health research under a single umbrella to form
a national brain trust of health researchers. This
multidisciplinary approach will be organized through a framework
of virtual institutes, each dedicated to a specific area of
focus, linking and supporting researchers pursuing common goals.
New synergies and networks will be forged across disciplines,
including basic biomedical research, applied clinical science,
health services and health systems and society, culture and the
health of populations.
CIHR is an example of Canadian innovation and will mean a brain
gain for Canada. New investments and better training will keep
Canadian researchers in the country and maintain Canada's ability
to develop world-class researchers in health in this area. The
CIHR will bring the best and the brightest minds together to
unlock then the mysteries of health.
As we see in the legislation, Bill C-13 will establish in law
the federal government's commitment to the full range of health
research inquiry. This will include an area of explosive growth,
research into the social, cultural and environmental factors that
affect the health of all Canadians. How, for example, does the
health of Canadians who live in my part of the country differ
from those who live in other parts of the country?
Through its support of both medical and social research, the
CIHR will ensure that we as Canadians have a better
understanding, not only of disease but also of health status.
This latter field is a growing field of interest and has profound
consequences in terms of health prevention.
There will be 10 to 15 virtual institutes that will support and
link researchers as part of a national team based in numerous
institutions where excellent work is being conducted across
Canada. For example, an institute may be established to focus on
aging, another on women's health or dedicated to mental health or
the treatment and prevention of diseases such as cancer or heart
disease.
To offer a sense of how a virtual institute might work, let me
provide members with an example. Consider an institute on
respiratory ailments in which a focus is on the growing incidents
of asthma among Canadian children.
It could bring together a multidisciplinary research agenda to
address the following: basic genetic research on asthma at a
hospital in a city centre; clinical trials and evaluations of
asthma therapies in various provinces; research by social
scientists and public health officials on factors leading to
asthma in children in rural areas; or evaluate local pilot
projects to improve how our health system responds to childhood
asthma. Any of those or all of those would be in play.
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This integrative approach will build on the research base in our
universities, our health and research centres, our teaching
hospitals, federal and provincial governments, voluntary and
private sectors, and all of these working in conjunction and with
each other.
The CIHR will effectively transform Canada's research sector in
this way. Research that has traditionally been performed in
disciplinary separation will now be integrated across scientific
disciplines.
Research that was once conducted in a context that was separate
from delivery will now be performed with a view to the integrated
health system. Research performed under a multitude of agendas
will now be integrated into a national health agenda.
By creating a robust health research environment in Canada, the
CIHR will build the capacity of the Canadian health research
community and promote the discussion of ethical issues, the
dissemination of knowledge and the application of health
research.
As you know, Mr. Speaker, thousands of highly skilled Canadians
are employed in the health sector. The CIHR will provide
expanded training and career opportunities for our scientists and
clinicians in all areas of research, inspiring a whole new
generation of Canadians to view health research as a viable
career choice. The CIHR will ensure that funding levels are
competitive with other countries and that our best and brightest
minds remain in Canada.
Keeping our researchers here in Canada is definitely a top
priority, but this is not the only benefit of the CIHR. Canadians
will benefit from the development of technologies, products and
services and practices that will lead to new treatments and
preventative measures. The CIHR will be a solid return on their
investment.
Health research plays an important role in providing new
information and analysis upon which the effectiveness of the
health care system can be judged. It will contribute to the
advancement of national standards and provide valuable support of
the decision making process.
Collaboration and partnership will lead to the sharing of
information among researchers wherever they reside and among
stakeholders, thus improving dialogue across different frontiers
and creating a transparent and inclusive process for the setting
of the health research agenda.
A climate of innovation and discovery will stimulate research
investment in the health and biotech sectors. The number of made
in Canada breakthroughs will multiply and will multiply fast.
In closing, I would like to emphasize again, because it is
important, that the CIHR will be focused on results, on knowledge
creation, on discoveries and enhanced base of knowledge to
improve the health system. It will create more highly skilled
jobs in key sectors of the economy and, above all, it will create
healthier Canadians.
As exciting as this venture may be for researchers, in the end
all Canadians will benefit and the Canadian institutes of health
research will be very good for Canada. As a result, I urge all
members of parliament to support this very important piece of
legislation in the interests of all of Canada.
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am
very pleased to rise today to speak to Bill C-13 concerning the
Canadian institutes of health research. I am pleased for many
reasons, but I would like to take members back a bit.
In November 1998, when this concept was first being looked at
through a task force, I had the opportunity to meet with Dr.
Howard Dickson who was the scholar in residence for the Medical
Research Council of Canada. We discussed this concept in quite
some detail.
I also received correspondence later from Dr. Paul R. Murphy of
the faculty of medicine at Dalhousie University in my home
province of Nova Scotia and from Dr. Timothy H. Ogilvie, the
acting dean of the Atlantic Veterinarian College at the
University of Prince Edward Island. They were also interested in
supporting this particular concept of the Canadian institutes of
health research.
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In November 1998, I wrote to the Minister of Health saying:
The concept of the Canadian Institutes of Health Research is a
nation-building initiative, bringing together the best of
Canada's researchers to work in harmony for a better health care
system. It certainly seems to merit consideration for
appropriate funding in the upcoming federal budget. In fact
most, if not all Canadians, would support health care as the
number one budgetary priority.
I am respectfully requesting that you give appropriate
consideration to the need for investment in health research in
Canada, and seek proper funding in the upcoming federal budget,
in response to the concept presented by the Canadian Institutes
of Health Research Task Force.
I am very pleased to see that the concept has moved beyond the
point of just studying it and that legislation has now been
brought forward in the form of Bill C-13. I am sure that most,
if not all Canadians, will agree with the principle that I
mentioned in the letter to the minister that health care is one
of the number one concerns of many Canadians. It is in fact the
top concern for many people living in our country.
I can tell the House of a personal experience. Just a few weeks
ago, my 83 year old mother-in-law had a fall. She ended up going
into the hospital because she broke her pelvis in two places. The
sad part is that she ended up on a small cot in the the hospital
hallway and for a couple of days or more was unable to be
admitted into a proper room where she could be cared for. Imagine
the indignity for a person her age lying out in a hallway on a
small bed that she could hardly move in. These are some of the
conditions that exist in our hospitals across the country because
the health care system is still in a state of much needed repair.
Let us put the bill in context. I want to talk a bit about some
of the background and indicate where we stand with respect to the
bill.
The Speaker: My colleague, you still have plenty of time
in your talk today. I thought I would break in here because it
seems like a logical place. We will go to Statements by Members.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
MINING INDUSTRY
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Thunder Bay—Atikokan, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, today, representatives from the mining industry from
across Canada are here to meet with parliamentarians, senior
officials and others to discuss current challenges and
opportunities facing this important sector.
The minerals and metals industry accounts for $45.3 billion,
over 15% of Canada's exports; provides 367,000 high paying jobs
to Canadians; forms the economic background of over 120
communities; and is an important bridge to the wage economy for
aboriginal Canadians. The Canadian mining industry is a pace
setter in productivity and a major user of advanced technology
products and services.
I invite hon. members to join with me in recognizing the
importance of the minerals and metals industry to Canadians now
and in the years to come.
* * *
TAXATION
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, back
in the 1970s, the Liberal government of the day created the
Foreign Investment Review Agency, ominously known as FIRA. The
agency was supposed to screen foreign investment to ensure that
our sovereignty was not put a risk by big bad American companies
buying up Canadian companies.
Fast forward to 1999 and we see something quite different.
Today, the Liberal Minister of Finance and Prime Minister have
effectively put Canadian business on the auction block at fire
sale prices through their bizarre low dollar policy. Witness the
Weyerhauser purchase of Canadian forestry giant McMillan Bloedel.
Meanwhile, those that are not sold to foreigners join the
thousands of other economic refugees who flee Canada's repressive
taxes for the U.S. and other low tax jurisdiction, just like the
executives at Nova Corp who now call Pittsburgh home.
The Liberals trumpet their balanced approach, but it is looking
more and more like the Liberal balanced approach has come to mean
“if we don't drive them out, we'll drive them under”.
* * *
NANCY GREENE-RAINE
Mr. Ted McWhinney (Vancouver Quadra, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
we salute Nancy Greene-Raine who yesterday was voted by newspaper
editors and broadcasters as Female Athlete of the Century, in
recognition of her outstanding athletic achievements.
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She focused the eyes of the skiing world on Canada when she won
17 of the 31 races she entered in 1967. She earned the silver
medal in slalom and the gold medal in giant slalom in the 1968
Winter Olympics in Grenoble, France. Her athletic achievements
combined with her engaging personality have made her one of most
beloved and recognizable ambassadors of her sport in Canada and
around the world.
* * *
CHILD POVERTY
Ms. Carolyn Bennett (St. Paul's, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
tomorrow, November 24, marks National Child Poverty Day. I draw
attention to the importance attached to this day.
Canadian children are the future of the country and are our
largest investment. This means we cannot afford to turn a blind
eye to the early years that pave the way for the child's future
development physically, emotionally and cognitively. We must
continue to make children one of our key priorities by helping
families ensure that their children get the best possible start
in life.
It is for this reason that we invested nearly $9 billion last
year to help families with children. It is for this reason that
we are putting billions back into the hands of Canadian parents
to help provide clothing, food, adequate housing, day care,
dental care and toys. It is for this reason that the government
committed to a third significant investment into the national
child benefit in the Speech from the Throne by July 2001.
We must continue on the path toward the eradication of child
poverty in Canada. Children are our future.
* * *
PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, today
the book The Carving of Canada: A Tale of Parliamentary
Gothic by Munroe Scott published by Penumbra Press will be
launched on Parliament Hill. This book intertwines the story of
our Parliament Buildings, Canada and its governing institutions
with details of the life and work of those who created the
sculptures that surround us in this place.
The work of Eleanor Milne, former parliamentary sculptor and her
associates, the creation of the frieze of history, the
constitution stones and the stained glass windows of the Centre
Block are described in the fashion of a campfire story.
The book brings alive the largely anonymous efforts of those
people who have worked to make our Parliament Buildings such a
special place. This work is a fitting addition to the works of
Munroe Scott, one of Canada's most creative film, theatre,
television and literary figures.
* * *
UKRAINE
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
66 years ago an act of genocide took place which claimed the
lives of millions of innocent people.
The Ukrainian famine genocide of 1932-33 was a manmade famine
that ravaged through Ukraine. The Soviet leader of the day,
Joseph Stalin, broke the spirit of Ukrainian peasant farmers and
forced them under Communist rule. Ukraine was the most
productive agricultural area of the Soviet Union and the Stalin
regime was determined to crush all vestiges of Ukrainian
nationalism.
My riding of Dauphin—Swan River has a large Ukrainian
population. In fact, Dauphin is the home of Canada's National
Ukrainian Festival. I would add my voice to theirs in condemning
this senseless act of aggression.
Tonight a special event is being held in Centre Block to
remember the victims of this horrible, inhumane act. Several
dignitaries will be in attendance, including the Ambassador of
Ukraine. All members of the House are invited to attend this
special event.
* * *
INTERNATIONAL FUND FOR IRELAND
Mr. Pat O'Brien (London—Fanshawe, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the International Fund for Ireland strives to promote the cause
of peace in Northern Ireland by focusing on the economic and
social development of the counties of the north and the border
counties.
Emphasis is placed on cross-border projects which build
intercommunity links and dialogue, thereby reducing sectarian
hatred. By encouraging and helping nationalists and loyalists to
work together, the International Fund for Ireland helps them to
understand that it is possible for them to live together not only
in peace but even in friendship.
Canada is a founding partner of this important fund. Last June
the Prime Minister saw the work of the fund personally during his
trip to Ireland. He also announced Canada's latest contribution
to the International Fund for Ireland of $1 million. Today I am
pleased to welcome to Ottawa the chair of the International Fund
for Ireland, Mr. Willie McCarter, and the Canadian observer on
the fund, Mr. Ted McConnell.
* * *
[Translation]
MÉNÉTRIERS D'ANTAN
Mr. Maurice Dumas (Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
last Thursday, some 50 musicians of the Ménétriers d'antan did
us the honour of giving a concert of traditional music in the
rotunda of parliament in Ottawa.
These musicians from Laval-Laurentides-Lanaudière, most of whom
are retired seniors, had been invited by the member for
Rivière-des-Mille-Îles and had accepted the invitation with
alacrity.
Founded in 1988 by Jean-Pierre Paiement, this group of
volunteers, now under the direction of Jean-Paul Desjardins,
brings together musicians playing traditional music in an effort
to revive the tradition of the strolling players.
1405
They perform in public places, churches, shopping centres and
seniors' residences, Saint-Jean-Baptiste celebrations and
festivals. They have made three compact disks, which are
available on the market.
In this international year of older persons, we pay tribute
today to them and their leader. May they continue to impress
their audiences with their dexterity and their playing.
* * *
FARM TOURISM INDUSTRY
Mr. Denis Paradis (Brome—Missisquoi, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, over 60
people representing organizations and businesses in the farm
tourism industry from my riding of Brome—Missisquoi met today in
Ottawa to learn about programs that could benefit them.
They come from Bromont, Magog, Sutton, Lac Brome, Bedford and
Farnham, to name but a few places. I take this opportunity to
once again express my pride at the dynamism of the people of
Brome—Missisquoi.
They responded enthusiastically to my invitation, and their
presence speaks clearly of the importance of farm tourism in our
region, and of the important place this market will have to
assume in the coming years.
Congratulations to all those who continue to be innovative.
They are the proof that, in the regions, we are not afraid to
roll up our sleeves to make available both recreation and rural
products each varied and original.
* * *
[English]
THE LATE ARNOLD SILZER
Mr. Chuck Cadman (Surrey North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise today to pay tribute to Arnold Silzer, a well respected and
active member of the Whalley community of Surrey. Arnold passed
away on November 11.
I first came to know Arnold personally in his role as returning
officer for my constituency in the 1997 federal election.
Arnold's passion for the well-being of young people can no doubt
be linked to his 43 years as a teacher. As a long time member of
the Lions Club he constantly advocated for youth. It was in that
capacity that he worked closely with my office on the summer work
student exchange program for the past two summers.
Arnold was a founding member of the Surrey Crime Prevention
Society, a past president of the Surrey Chamber of Commerce, and
secretary for the Whalley & Area Merchants Association.
Our sympathies go to Lois, his wife of 45 years, his children
Bruce and Diane, and his grandchildren Jason, Jeremy and Chelsea,
as well as to his extended family and countless friends.
Arnold Silzer, always a smile, always a story to tell and always
a gentleman, will be sorely missed by his community.
* * *
ROYAL CANADIAN HORSE ARTILLERY
Mr. Hec Clouthier (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, it is indeed a great honour and privilege to salute
the brave men and women of the second regiment, Royal Canadian
Horse Artillery.
The RCHA was formed in 1905 as a fast, mobile brigade that would
gallop into action with a 13 pounder quick firing gun. Also in
1905 Sir Wilfrid Laurier deemed it of vital national importance
to establish Canadian Forces Base Petawawa in my great riding of
Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke.
Base Petawawa was specifically chosen for RCHA so it could train
on wide open spaces with varied terrain. It was and still is a
world class military training ground. As a result the RCHA
became great Canadian heroes in World War I and World War II. It
was the first into the bloody battles, the first to win and the
first to die.
The rallying cry was “Root, toot-a-toot, toot-a-toot, merry men
and women are we. There is none so fair that can compare to the
Royal Canadian Horse Artillery”.
* * *
DIABETES
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
November is International Diabetes Month. Health Canada suggests
that Canadians pay up to $9 billion, mostly through taxes, on
costs associated with diabetes and related complications
including lost productivity.
The members of my family with diabetes are not alone. Over two
and a quarter million Canadians have diabetes. Canadians with
diabetes not only face the day to day demands of diabetes but are
also four times more likely to have heart and vascular disease,
250% more likely to have a stroke, more likely to have end stage
renal disease, likely to have mild to severe nerve damage, and
face a 15 year shorter life expectancy.
The Juvenile Diabetes Foundation is committed to helping improve
the lives of diabetes sufferers and to finding a cure. Every
year over 60,000 new cases of diabetes are diagnosed in Canada. I
urge the government to do all it can to support both finding a
cure for diabetes and to review its support for care for those
diagnosed with the disease.
* * *
[Translation]
JOURNÉE NATIONALE DES PATRIOTES
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
on Sunday, a large crowd gathered in Saint-Denis-sur-Richelieu to
celebrate the Journée nationale des patriotes, which is held on
the Sunday closest to November 23, the anniversary of the battle
of Saint-Denis-sur-Richelieu, which ended by a Patriots' victory,
in 1837.
However, the patriot movement had begun several years earlier
and was then the most influential political movement in Lower
Canada, with a majority of seats in the House of Assembly.
1410
Unfortunately, as is often the case when peoples are subjected
to oppression, the Patriots had no choice but to trade their
pens and their words for forks and guns, to protect their
properties, their lives and the ideals in which they believed.
Several of them were killed, injured or jailed for having taken
up arms against the British occupant, who even tried to have
them blamed for the violence that had taken place.
History will remember that we owe it to the Patriots if we have
a truly democratic and responsible government, civil and
political liberties of which we are proud, not to mention the
fact that our people is now on its way to autonomy and freedom.
* * *
BLOC QUEBECOIS
Mrs. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, this morning the daily La Presse reported that 18
Bloc Quebecois members have asked for their annual quotas of
Canadian flags and pins.
To all these members I say thank you. Thank you for showing that
it is perfectly possible to be a Canadian and a Quebecer at the
same time. Personally, I am proud of my flag, and my flag is the
Canadian and Quebec flag.
Thank you and, more importantly, we hope that the Bloc Quebecois
will continue its good work in promoting Canadian unity.
* * *
[English]
THE ECONOMY
Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
Liberal government's combination of a weak dollar policy, high
corporate and personal tax rates, and a high level of regulatory
burden are reducing productivity, restricting growth and reducing
the value of Canadian equities.
Liberal policies are making Canadian businesses particularly
vulnerable to foreign takeovers. Referred to by some as Canada's
corporate fire sale, the list of Canadian companies being taken
over is getting larger every week. Just recently, British
American Tobacco bought Imasco for a whopping $17.3 billion.
Other takeover targets include MacMillan Bloedel, JDS Fitel,
Newcourt, Poco Petroleum, MetroNet, Celanese, Discreet Logic and
Groupe Forex.
When will the government listen to the IMF and other authorities
and make debt and tax reduction priorities, not just
afterthoughts? When will the government realize that we cannot
devalue our way to prosperity and that Liberal policies are
turning Canada into the Wal-Mart of the world?
* * *
[Translation]
QUEBEC'S MINISTER OF STATE FOR ECONOMY AND FINANCE
Ms. Raymonde Folco (Laval West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, after
counting on the eventual demise of the elderly to increase
support for the separatist cause, Quebec's minister of state for
economy and finance, Bernard Landry, has now chosen as his
target the vote of immigrants to Quebec.
Bernard Landry is well known to the cultural communities. In
September 1998 his comments on the majority required in any
future referendum stirred up a great deal of controversy.
Great democrat that he is, Bernard Landry did not beat around
the bush at all in trying to discredit the vote of the cultural
communities on the separation of Quebec. Here is what he said:
“Everyone is well aware that the bar is being set too high. It
is like giving a veto power to our compatriots, our brothers and
sisters of the cultural communities, over our national project.”
Once again, Bernard Landry is sowing the seeds of division
within Quebec.
* * *
[English]
ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
am reading from a criminal intelligence brief dated June 15, put
out by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police on the issue of computer
crime and national security.
The top four highlights are, first, that the likelihood of a
serious, deliberate and targeted attack to a Canadian critical
infrastructure system has increased from low to medium and the
impact of such an attack remains high; second, that Canada is
lagging behind other information intensive countries in the area
of co-ordinated information protection; third, that several
government departments dealing with an increasing number of
sophisticated attacks are seeking guidance, support and
assistance from law enforcement agencies, only to find there is a
lack of skilled and trained resources; and, fourth, that critical
network systems and systems control are the Achilles heel of the
nation's information infrastructure.
This criminal intelligence brief is a damning indictment of the
inaction of the Liberal government and the solicitor general.
* * *
[Translation]
NEWLY SOVEREIGN COUNTRIES
Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it is an
invention by the other side of this House that newly sovereign
countries experience economic difficulties. This is far from
the reality.
Claude Picher wrote this morning “When the former Czechoslovakia
was divided, all observers felt that the Czech republic would be
far better off than the Slovak. The opposite was what
occurred.”
In fact, according to the OECD, the most successful newly
sovereign countries have been the countries of central Europe
that have had to make the difficult transition toward a market
economy.
Another wrong idea being spread by the federalists is that the
economic performance of the major countries such as the G-7 is
better than that of countries of similar size to Quebec.
The growth of the G-7 countries for 1990-98 was 1.8%, while that
of countries the size of Quebec was, again according to the
OECD, 3.1%.
A sovereign Quebec, as the 16th-ranking world power, would be
true to this trend toward superior economic performances.
* * *
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[English]
MULTINATIONALS
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
foreign multinationals gobbled up over $25 billion of Canadian
controlled corporations in Canada in 1998, an increase of 70%
over 1997. For the first nine months of 1999, U.S. corporations
have spent $28 billion snapping up Canadian companies, an
increase of 16% over the same period last year.
To make things worse, the federal government is planning to
reduce the Canadian content required on the country's corporate
boards from 50% to 25%. Consequently, Canadians will completely
lose control over corporations which still have their head
offices in Canada.
As if abandoning national sovereignty was not bad enough, the
industry minister said that his decision is in line with
recommendations from the Senate.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, while the Prime Minister has been talking about
democracy at Commonwealth meetings his government has been busy
denying democracy at home.
The people of British Columbia have not yet been given an
opportunity to vote on the Nisga'a treaty which establishes a new
race based government in their province, which assigns access to
natural resources on the basis of bloodlines and which denies the
Nisga'a people access to property rights.
If the Prime Minister wants to champion democracy, why does he
not hold a province-wide referendum on the Nisga'a deal in
British Columbia?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, there is a legislative assembly in British Columbia
which voted on this issue, expressing the view of the people of
British Columbia. This parliament will vote on the issue. This
is the way we express democracy in Canada.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the Prime Minister says that it is the duty of
parliament to decide, and yet look at how the government has
treated parliament on this issue. It uses closure and time
allocation to cut off debate. It stacks committees and stifles
committee hearings. It was not going to hold hearings in British
Columbia until forced to by the official opposition. It denies
free votes to its own members on any issue of government policy.
If the Nisga'a treaty is so good, why does the government have
to resort to all of these undemocratic procedures in order to ram
it through parliament and impose it on British Columbia?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, four out of five parties in the House of Commons have
agreed on the procedure in this matter. It is clear. There will
be a vote in the House of Commons. I am sure this is the way to
deal with a problem of this kind.
This is an obligation that was vested in the Government of
Canada by royal proclamation centuries ago. We have to respect
the obligations of this country vis-a-vis the first nations of
Canada.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, four out of five parties agreed on Charlottetown and
look what happened to it. The government is alienating the
people of British Columbia on every front. It taxes them to
death. It has mismanaged the west coast fishery. It has bungled
the people smuggling problem in British Columbia. Now it is
imposing a 19th century race based treaty on the people of that
province.
If the Prime Minister really believes that this treaty is in the
best interests of the people of British Columbia, why does he not
allow them to have a say through a province-wide referendum?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we have an obligation which was given to the people of
Canada at the time the British came to Canada. They decided that
treaties would be signed with the first nations who were here.
This was an obligation that was given to us and it is our
obligation to live up to the commitments that were made by the
Government of England 200 years ago.
I come from Quebec and I am defending British traditions.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, we
see that the Prime Minister thinks it is a 19th century treaty.
He is offering a 19th century solution for it. It is absolutely
ridiculous.
We would like to welcome him home on a quick layover. I know he
has just come out of Africa. Now that the Prime Minister has
finished preaching democracy, why does he not practise it here at
home and let B.C. have a vote?
1420
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the problem of treaties has been dealt with in every
province in Canada for a long time.
It is not the first time that parliament has been confronted
with the problem of implementing treaties in Canada. It was done
years ago by Conservative and Liberal prime ministers, at the
beginning of the century and later on as well.
We will keep the tradition that we have, which is to respect the
obligations of the crown vis-a-vis the first citizens of this
land.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the Prime Minister should be the first one to know that many of
the treaties that have been signed have been a colossal disaster
right across the country and they need to be reworked.
The Indian affairs minister seems to be quite pleased with the
way he has turned out. He has said that the Nisga'a deal is just
too complicated and complex for the people of British Columbia to
figure out what it is all about. Is that not patronizing?
Yesterday he called my colleague for South Surrey—White
Rock—Langley silly for even daring to ask a question about the
democratic rights of the B.C. people.
Does the Prime Minister endorse the Indian affairs minister's
contempt for the democratic rights of the people of B.C.? Does
he endorse it or not?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the minister of Indian affairs yesterday gave a very
good reply. He said that they do not tell the people of British
Columbia what is in the treaty. They make all sorts of
assertions that are not in the treaty. Just tell them exactly
what is in the treaty and the people will understand.
The people elected in British Columbia expressed their views and
members of the parliament of Canada will be doing the same thing
very soon.
* * *
[Translation]
REFERENDUMS
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Prime Minister announced that he would not accept the rule of
50% plus one in a referendum on sovereignty in Quebec. He says
his decision is based on the supreme court ruling.
Can he tell us where in the supreme court ruling he saw any
reference at all to the 50% plus one rule?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
for years I have said that one does not break up a country after
a judicial recount. This is a very important decision and a
referendum is a consultation.
I agree with the Parti Quebecois that even results of 92% in a
consultation are not binding on the government. This was what
Ms. Harel said in Quebec City not very long ago.
We will see what the results of the consultation are, but it is
clear that a simple majority will not be enough to let Quebec
go. There is no need to get excited. Things are clear and we
will follow the directions of the supreme court: the question
and the result must be clear. If not, there will be no
negotiation.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Prime Minister has just told us that he will not act in good
faith.
One thing is for sure, and that is that the supreme court
recognizes the equality of all before the law, and therefore one
vote is not worth more than another.
Does the Prime Minister realize that, by requiring more than 50%
plus one, he is according greater importance to a federalist
vote than a sovereignist vote? Does he realize that a minority
could impose its will on the majority? Does he realize that he
is breaking one of the fundamental rules of democracy?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
93% of the inhabitants of Mont-Tremblant voted in a referendum
and the minister said that the government rejected all the
democratic votes cast.
Even the CSN, where the leader of the Bloc Quebecois used to
work, requires a two-thirds vote by members of a general assembly
before its bylaws can be changed. Where was the democracy in
the CSN?
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. The hon. member for
Beauharnois—Salaberry.
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, all
referendums on Quebec's political future have to date been
governed only by Quebec laws and have passed the test of Quebec
democracy.
1425
Is the Prime Minister not aware that, by saying, and I quote
“that 50% plus one is not enough”, he is acting contrary to a
number of precedents, including the one of Charlottetown where
the rule of 50% plus one was accepted by all, including the
Prime Minister himself?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
since the Parti Quebecois and the Bloc Quebecois like to quote
the supreme court, perhaps I could repeat for them what it said.
It said “The referendum result, if it is to be taken as an
expression of the democratic will, must be free of ambiguity
both in terms of the question asked and in terms of the support
it achieves. Democracy means more than simple majority rule”.
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, if
democracy means more than simple majority rule, I would ask the
Prime Minister, who has the support of only 38% of the Canadian
electorate and of 36% of Quebec voters, which is even less, how
can he usurp the powers of the National Assembly and want to
impose a rule other than that of 50% plus one?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, this is comparing apples and oranges. When we vote in
an ordinary election—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. We have heard the question, now I
would like to hear the answer.
Hon. Stéphane Dion: Mr. Speaker, when we vote in a regular
election, we vote for a government, and in four years' time we
can choose to re-elect it or not.
When we choose to break up a country, that is just about
irreversible. That is why democracies are more demanding for
serious and irreversible decisions.
As regards the Charlottetown referendum, I would like to quote
the current Deputy Premier of Quebec, Bernard Landry, who said
at the time: “For a yes to be legitimate, it needs at least 58%
of the vote to reflect those we respectfully call the
anglophones and the allophones”.
* * *
[English]
CHILD POVERTY
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, in 1993
the then leader of the official opposition said “Mulroney has
completely lost touch with reality in raising the unity question
while millions of Canadians suffer in poverty”. This Prime
Minister is afflicted with the same syndrome. He is eager to
weigh in on a hypothetical referendum question, but he completely
ignores the fate of 1.4 million children living in poverty.
Why has this Prime Minister lost touch with the reality of 1.4
million children living in poverty?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, that was the main theme of our Speech from the Throne.
It was what we had as the main theme in our programs for
children.
We have created all sorts of programs, and it is not over. It
is a work that is in progress, but it has been a priority of this
government since we formed the government and it was the main
item in the Speech from the Throne, which I hope the leader of
the New Democratic Party read a few weeks ago.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, let me
read a quote. “One child in six is in poverty. It's shameful.
We need action so fathers and mothers can give bread and dignity
to their children”.
Now it is not one child in six; it is one child in five.
Who said those words? The Prime Minister. Now we have more
children without bread, more children without dignity. That is
the legacy of this government. That is the legacy of this Prime
Minister: 1.4 million children living in poverty.
Why are these children not entitled to bread and dignity?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we have increased the national child benefit and will be
adding $1.7 billion a year by July of next year.
We are working with the provinces to develop a national action
plan for children.
1430
We will put more money into the hands of families with children
through tax relief. We have the Canadian prenatal nutrition
program, the community action program for children, the
aboriginal head start program, the EI family income supplement,
first nations and Inuit child care, and dependent care
allowances. We have had all of those for a few years.
* * *
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, in 1994
the government produced a guideline document which outlined in
some detail its defence policy. Is is known more commonly as the
1994 defence white paper. Since that time the government has
repeatedly and recently indicated that the success of DND could
be measured by how much of the white paper was being or had been
implemented.
Will the Prime Minister confirm for the House that the 1994
defence white paper continues to be the authoritative document on
the government's defence policy? Yes or no?
[Translation]
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member
mentioned, the committee produced this book. We still use it in
our deliberations and for the decisions we make at the moment.
[English]
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, on pages
46 and 47, the 1994 defence white paper states:
The Sea Kings are rapidly approaching the end of their
operational life. Work will, therefore, begin immediately to
identify options and plans to put into service new affordable
replacement helicopters by the end of the decade.
With only weeks left in the decade, does the Prime Minister have
a secret hangar somewhere in Canada containing replacement
helicopters? If not, will the Prime Minister finally give the
House a firm date as to when he will initiate the maritime
helicopter replacement program?
[Translation]
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, to answer my colleague,
members know that we have started to replace the search and
rescue helicopters.
Regarding the replacement of the Sea Kings, the process has
begun, and the minister will make a decision shortly.
* * *
[English]
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Mike Scott (Skeena, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, according to
a leading constitutional expert from McGill University who
testified this morning at the standing committee, the Nisga'a
treaty amounts to nothing less than legislated segregation in
Canada.
My question for the Prime Minister is a very simple one. Is the
Prime Minister satisfied that he will go down in history as the
Prime Minister who embraced legislated segregation in Canada and
gave it the force of law?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we have had treaties in Canada since confederation.
It is an obligation that was taken when the British settlers came
to all parts of Canada. It is an obligation that we have to
respect. I do not want to rewrite history. It is a system
that was done in good faith by the government of the day. It
made commitments to these people and we have to respect those
commitments.
Mr. Mike Scott (Skeena, Ref.): I guess we
will take from that, Mr. Speaker, that the Prime Minister is
prepared to accept legislated segregation in the country. I
find it offensive.
There has never been a government in the country during my
lifetime that has done more to promote disunity in the country
than this government and this Prime Minister.
Why is the Prime Minister embracing legislated segregation? Why
is he not prepared to give the people of British Columbia a vote,
to see whether they agree with him and whether they want to have
legislated segregation in the country?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the House will vote tonight on this and the people in
this House represent all the people of Canada.
The obligation that has been vested in this situation of the
first nations in Canada is a responsibility
of the national government as well as the provincial Government
of British Columbia. We are just doing what we are obligated
to do under the royal proclamation of the 1760s.
* * *
[Translation]
REFERENDUMS
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the
Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs said that the 1995
referendum question was a PQ question, even though it was
approved by a majority in the Quebec National Assembly. This is
a disturbing statement that puts into question the legitimacy of
British parliamentarism.
1435
On that same basis, are we to understand that all the bills
passed in this House are Liberal bills and not Parliament of
Canada bills, and that, as such, they do not deserve to be
respected and have no legitimacy?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, one cannot break up a country or create a country
without having the assurance that this is indeed what people
want. The 1995 question could never have given that assurance.
Everyone recognizes that now, except the PQ and the BQ.
But other Quebecers know and say that if the question is clear,
they will vote to remain in Canada, and Bloc Quebecois members
also know it. This is why they are so insistent on preserving
their ability to ask a confusing question, but in vain.
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, are we to
understand from the minister's answer that one of the options
he is currently considering is to impose on the Quebec National
Assembly a question that would have to be unanimously approved,
for example, to make sure it is to his liking, legitimate, clear
and appropriate? Is this what the government is getting at?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, would it not be absolutely preferable to agree on the
procedure and to also discuss the fundamentals? But we do not
agree on the fundamentals, nor do we agree on the procedure.
The Quebec Liberal Party was opposed to the question. This poses
a serious problem in terms of the question's legitimacy.
Everyone recognizes that, except the Bloc Quebecois member, it
seems.
* * *
[English]
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the Prime Minister talks about his obligations. We know
what happened with the GST, so here we go now with Nisga'a.
The minister and Deputy Prime Minister have repeatedly stated
that there will be a vote in B.C. by the MPs who represent
British Columbia. However, when asked if they would pass or
reject the Nisga'a treaty based on a vote of those B.C. MPs, they
both very ineloquently stated no.
Given that they have both rejected the very mechanism by which
they claim British Columbians will have a vote, will they now
agree to a province-wide referendum so those very British
Columbians will have the vote that this government has promised
them?
Hon. Robert D. Nault (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, having a referendum would
suggest very strongly that there has been no consultation.
As members well know, because we have been talking about this
for a number of weeks, there have been over 500 public meetings
on Nisga'a in British Columbia. Over 34 cities and towns in
British Columbia had hearings in the last number of months.
Tonight we will have a vote by parliamentarians who were elected
by Canadians. I think that is good democratic process.
Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, let us take a look at some of these hearings that the
Liberals have been talking about.
We had one in Prince George last week. Four people were allowed
to testify. While people from Prince George sat in the audience
and were not allowed to speak, three of the four people the
Liberals put on their list were flown in from Vancouver and
Victoria. So much for consultation.
Will British Columbians have a real opportunity to have their
voices heard by voting on a province-wide referendum in British
Columbia?
Hon. Robert D. Nault (Minister of Indian Affairs and
Northern Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I do not know what
we will do in dealing with how exercised the opposition is—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. The hon. Minister of Indian
Affairs and Northern Development.
Hon. Robert D. Nault: Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, I do
not know what the opposition members will do in the next number
of months if they are this exercised about the Nisga'a treaty
because it is our intention as a government to bring in a number
of other treaties from British Columbia. I hope opposition
members handle them as well as they are handling this one.
* * *
[Translation]
REFERENDUMS
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Prime Minister wants unanimity in the National Assembly on the
question.
Why, then, would unanimity not be required here to establish the
rules he wants to see established? Why would there be one set
of rules for the Quebec National Assembly and another for the
House of Commons?
1440
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, all that we are asking for is a clear question. In
fact, what we are asking is for is no referendum. But if there
must be one, there must be a clear question. The clear question
cannot address two things simultaneously. There must be no
beating around the bush.
If they believe it would be best for Quebecers to no longer be
part of Canada, let them ask that; let us see what answer
Quebecers will give them. Let them not try to drag an answer
out of Quebecers against their will with a trick question.
Let them ask a clear question, out of respect for Quebecers and
their rights as sovereign citizens of a democratic country.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, we
have seen the clarity of this parliament in the question asked
at the time of the Charlottetown referendum. The full text of
the accord was not even drafted when along came the referendum.
Really now: how much more confusing could things be?
How could an elected majority in Quebec foster confusion, when
here a very slight majority fosters nothing but clarity, because
the eminent professor has come up with an idea?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, let us take the example of another recent referendum.
Australia held one merely to decide whether or not to retain the
monarchy. Not to offend anyone, this seems less important to me
than deciding on a country. The percentage there was not 50%
plus 1 country-wide, but 50% plus 1 country-wide, as well as 50%
plus 1 in four out of six states.
There have been a number of similar referendums where a higher
majority has been required for major issues. There have even
been some countries where 100% is not sufficient, because it has
been decided that the country is indivisible.
In Canada, the country is divisible, but not just any old way.
* * *
[English]
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Derrek Konrad (Prince Albert, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
Charlottetown accord said, “Self-government agreements should be
set out in future treaties, including land claims agreements”.
The minister of Indian affairs knows that when the accord was
defeated in a national referendum, it was defeated by Indians and
non-Indians alike.
Why is the minister ignoring the express wishes of a majority of
all Canadians? Why is he including self-government in the
Nisga'a treaty?
Hon. Robert D. Nault (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, because it is in our
constitution under section 35(1).
Mr. Derrek Konrad (Prince Albert, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, is
that not great, the Charlottetown accord by inches.
In 1992 the Liberals campaigned for adoption of the
Charlottetown accord. It called for the recognition of
aboriginal governments as one of three orders of government in
Canada. Now they say the Nisga'a treaty does not create a third
order of government.
Let us clear this up once and for all. Does the recognition of
aboriginal government create a third order of government? Yes or
no?
Hon. Robert D. Nault (Minister of Indian Affairs and
Northern Development, Lib.): No, Mr. Speaker.
* * *
[Translation]
TOBACCO COMPANIES
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, with respect to
the documents tabled yesterday by the Minister of Health
regarding the efforts of tobacco companies to develop and
maintain the desire to smoke, the minister left all his options
open.
Will the minister confirm whether or not the government is
excluding the idea of taking tobacco company directors or even
holding corporations to court?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have
not excluded any options.
* * *
[English]
MINING INDUSTRY
Mr. Réginald Bélair (Timmins—James Bay, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.
In the last century, mining has been the backbone of many rural
communities throughout the country. Some of the largest and most
productive mines are in these communities and specifically in
northern Ontario. However mining exploration has seen a setback
in the last 10 years.
Is the Minister of Finance continuing to work in partnership
with the mining industry to ensure that Canada remains one of the
world's leading mineral explorers?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the member for Timmins—James Bay and in fact all of the
members of the northern caucus are to be congratulated for their
ceaseless efforts on behalf of the mining industry.
The hon. member is quite right to raise the problem of
exploration in northern Canada.
1445
I can assure the hon. member and his colleagues that the
Minister of Natural Resources, myself and the government will
work not only with the industry, but we will continue to work
with the members of the northern caucus to ensure that the mining
industry enjoys a strong 100 years ahead as it has in the past.
* * *
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
Alex Macdonald, former attorney general of B.C.; Gordon Campbell,
leader of the B.C. Liberal Party; Gordon Gibson, former leader of
the B.C. Liberal Party; Mel Smith, constitutional advisor to four
B.C. premiers and the author of the amending formula in the
Canadian constitution, have all said that the Nisga'a agreement
is unconstitutional.
It is not just the Reform Party that is opposed to this
agreement. Every day more British Columbians are voicing their
opposition to this treaty. Is that not the real reason why the
Prime Minister will not give British Columbians a vote?
Hon. Robert D. Nault (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, you might have noticed that
this is the witness list that the members keep saying are in
favour of the treaty. However, those are the ones who are
opposed. Someone is contradicting themselves over there.
We are having hearings. We are letting people come and say what
they believe. From there, the legislation will come to the
House.
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, we have heard this minister talk about the hundreds of
meetings over the last few years. But let the truth be known
that not one word from either side has ever changed this
agreement.
These meetings are nothing more than a scam by this government.
It is not interested in listening to one word from one British
Columbian. It holds these meetings and refuses to change one
word.
Let the truth be known that the government does not believe in
democracy. That is the only reason it is not allowing a vote for
the people in the province of British Columbia.
Hon. Robert D. Nault (Minister of Indian Affairs and
Northern Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the obvious
situation is just the opposite.
When we had the agreement in principle, we then went ahead and
made some significant changes after the agreement in principle
because of the consultation with third party interests. The
reason we had over 286 meetings alone with third party interests
was to make sure that the agreement would reflect the needs of
the people in the Nass Valley.
* * *
FRESHWATER EXPORTS
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
it is now clear that the government will not bring in a national
ban on the bulk export of Canadian freshwater. Yet, on February
9 of this year that is precisely what the Liberals stood in the
House and voted for when they supported an NDP motion to that
effect.
Could the Prime Minister tell me why his government has
abandoned its commitment to a national ban on bulk water exports
and why it now labels as simplistic that which it supported only
short months ago?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, unfortunately the hon. member was not in the House
yesterday because we tabled legislation—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: My colleagues, we should not refer to
anyone's attendance or non-attendance. The hon. Minister of
Foreign Affairs.
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform
the hon. member that yesterday we tabled in the House legislation
that provides a prohibition for the bulk removal of natural water
under the Boundary Waters Treaty Act. It is a full pledge of
commitment to the issue that we put forward last February.
I hope the hon. member will take the advantage of reading the
legislation.
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I have read the legislation that is why I raised the
question. It does not contain a national ban on the bulk export
of water. It may contain some measures but it does not contain
what was called for by the House.
Why are the Liberals in full denial about the fact that they
cannot act the way they said they would act because of NAFTA?
Will they have the decency to tell us if they were fooling
themselves all along or were they fooling the Canadian people?
Either way, they should be embarrassed.
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, again, for the purpose of informing the hon. member,
the legislation does provide for a prohibition of bulk removal.
What it does not do is follow the recommendation of the hon.
member and some of his party on the west coast, which is to turn
this into a trade issue which would result in a series of trade
actions that would totally impede the capacity of Canada to
protect its waters.
The hon. member is standing on his head.
* * *
1450
[Translation]
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, PC): Mr. Speaker, for over a
year now, the Minister of National Defence has repeatedly told
the House that the maritime helicopters project, and I quote:
“is ready to go soon”. The statement of requirements has been
ready for some time now.
Has the Prime Minister again scrapped this project so vital to
the safety of our soldiers?
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would point out to the
member that the health and safety of Canadian armed forces
personnel is of paramount importance to us.
As I said earlier, and I repeat, a decision is in the works. It
is on the minister's desk, and it is up to him to make a
decision. I expect it will be made shortly.
[English]
Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, PC): Mr. Speaker,
in a briefing note to the minister obtained through the Access to
Information Act, it states that the procurement time for the
replacement of the Sea King from direction to delivery will be
eight years. The document then states, “The current estimated
life expectancy of the Sea King has been extended to 2005”.
Can the Prime Minister outline for the House what the Department
of National Defence will do between the year 2005 and 2008? That
is three years with no maritime helicopters in the air.
[Translation]
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have answered this
question several times, as has the minister.
The minister has said repeatedly that the health and safety of
our members is paramount and that no Sea King will be permitted
to fly if it puts our soldiers' lives at risk.
* * *
[English]
THE ENVIRONMENT
Ms. Aileen Carroll (Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I understand the Minister of the Environment has
recently returned from Bonn and the council of parties
negotiations on council change.
Could the minister please update the House on what progress is
being made internationally on this very important issue?
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of the Environment, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, indeed, there was progress in Bonn.
There was substantial progress on the mechanisms whereby
developed and developing countries can collaborate to achieve
some of the Kyoto agreements.
There was substantial progress with respect to the enhancement
of the capacity of developing countries to achieve Kyoto.
There was a clear indication from the developed countries that
they are taking serious measures to achieve Kyoto which only
illustrates the importance of the Prime Minister's decision that
Canada also takes this matter very seriously.
* * *
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Reed Elley (Nanaimo—Cowichan, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the Deputy Prime Minister also has a peculiar sense of democracy.
There are obviously serious side effects from spending too much
time at the cabinet table.
Last Friday, he said “Having referendums on matters is not
consistent with our democratic approach to parliamentary
government”.
I would like to ask the Prime Minister, aside from shutting down
the debate, rigging the committee process and ramming the Nisga'a
bill through the House, what other weapons are in this
government's democratic arsenal?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, four parties in the House agree on the process. Three
other parties in the opposition agree that this debate has to be
concluded in the proper fashion so we can do justice to the
obligations we have vis-à-vis the Nisga'a nation.
* * *
[Translation]
NATIONAL PAROLE BOARD
Mrs. Pierrette Venne (Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
rather disturbing revelations were made yesterday to the effect
that a parole board commissioner, Ms. Thériault, had regular
telephone contacts with the riding and Ottawa offices of the
Minister for International Trade.
My question is for the Prime Minister. Given that the National
Parole Board is an administrative tribunal, does the Prime
Minister consider that the fact the Minister for International
Trade has frequent communications with one of the commissioners
is in compliance with the ethics code?
Mr. Jacques Saada (Brossard—La Prairie, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
National Parole Board commissioners have absolutely no right to
discuss any file concerning the board with anyone outside this
organization.
These are extremely serious allegations. Either the hon. member
has evidence to support his claims and, if so, he should provide
it, or else he does not have such evidence and should therefore
exercise caution.
* * *
1455
[English]
TOBACCO INDUSTRY
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, the health minister has been out doing photo ops today
and cozying up to the insider. He is hoping a little of the
insider's reputation as a fighter against tobacco will rub off on
the minister. Meanwhile, 21,000 kids started smoking this month.
No one is going to make a movie about the health minister taking
on big tobacco.
When will the health minister follow British Columbia's lead and
take on big tobacco in the courts?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
we shall do our duty. We are assisting British Columbia by
providing it with the very documents we published yesterday and
more. Those documents will help us to understand the adversary.
They will help us to understand that the big tobacco companies
have all along been focusing on young people and people who have
been trying to quit.
Speaking of the insider, let us remember what he said. He said,
“I work with them. I have seen firsthand how they target
children. It is horrifying. Just leave the kids alone”. I
say, “let us get them to leave the kids alone”.
* * *
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the minister of defence.
First, we had a series of weaknesses in the Sea King helicopters
that embarrassed the Canadian air force. We then had the
Hercules aircraft that took four attempts to get from A to B. Now
a private contractor has discovered that our Aurora aircraft are
so corroded they can only fly at one-third of their design
altitude.
I do not know if there is any point where the government gets so
embarrassed that it takes action or not but surely it must at
this.
My question is for the minister of defence. What are the exact
steps the department of defence will take to address these
shortcomings in our aircraft in the Canadian Air Force?
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on November 18, as a
safety measure, a flight restriction was imposed on the Aurora
fleet restricting the aircraft to non-pressurized flights under
10,000 feet. This precautionary measure was taken as a result of
the discovery, during a regular overhaul, of corrosion on the
external skin of one of the aircraft which could potentially lead
to an in-flight depressurization.
Given that the Aurora's surveillance role requires the aircraft
to patrol at low altitudes, below 10,000 feet, the impact of the
Aurora's operation is minimal and the aircraft will continue to
fly on its regular missions.
* * *
NATIONAL UNITY
Mr. John Nunziata (York South—Weston, Ind.): Mr.
Speaker, Canadians are sick and tired of the destructive unity
debate. At a time when polls suggest that support for
sovereignty in the province of Quebec is declining, the Prime
Minister wants to bring in rules for the next referendum, which
is not likely in the foreseeable future.
Why now? Why is the Prime Minister stoking the fires of
separatism? Is he not concerned that his move will backfire and
in fact increase support for separation in the province of
Quebec?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.):
Absolutely not, Mr. Speaker. It is very important for everybody
to know exactly what the rules are. The supreme court decision
said that it was the responsibility of the political people to
make the decision about the clarity of the question and the
clarity of the majority. That is what we are doing. We are
making sure that everybody knows what is going on before the fact
not after the fact.
* * *
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, when treaty No. 6 was signed, the minister responsible
swore up and down that it was in the best interest of the
Blackfoot people. When treaties Nos. 7 and 8 were signed, the
government of the day insisted that those treaties were in the
best interests of the aboriginal people. They were dead wrong in
both cases.
Why does the government insist on going down the same road of
race based segregation by imposing the Nisga'a treaty on the
aboriginal and non-aboriginal people of British Columbia?
Hon. Robert D. Nault (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is very clear that the
Prime Minister has said that the government has a legal
obligation to aboriginal people to negotiate and to modernize
treaties in order to bring effect to them in today's world.
Our position is very clear. I would like to know, for a change,
what the Reform's position is on this.
* * *
1500
[Translation]
VALÉRIE HOULD-MARCHAND
Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire (Longueuil, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in the past,
there have been glaring injustices in Canada's amateur sport.
One only has to think about Sylvie Fréchette, the Villagos
twins, the Duchesnays and many others. Because of that, some
Canadian athletes are now competing for countries other than
Canada, and this could eventually be the case for Valérie
Hould-Marchand.
How long will the secretary of state ponder the situation? Will
he wait until Valérie decides to swim for another country before
taking action? Please order an inquiry now.
Hon. Denis Coderre (Secretary of State
(Amateur Sport), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, one does not pull on a
flower to make it grow faster.
I have been saying from the beginning that this government has
acted seriously. We proposed a mediation process, followed by
arbitration. With regard to arbitration, Ms. Hould-Marchand
herself said she does not want that. I will consult with both
sides. We will check the facts, then I will make a decision.
* * *
[English]
RIGHTS OF CHILDREN
Ms. Wendy Lill (Dartmouth, NDP): Mr. Speaker, over 50
community groups have condemned Canada for its treatment of
children with disabilities under the UN Convention on the Rights
of the Child.
In Canada children with disabilities are not getting enough
early intervention, teachers' assistance, physio, occupational or
speech therapy. Their families are not getting enough income
support, home care, respite care or parental leave, and it is
getting worse all the time.
This report says that the government does not care enough for
the half million children with disabilities. When will the
government start meeting our international obligations and make
life better for children with disabilities?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am glad to report to the House and to
the hon. member that at a recent meeting between the federal
government and provincial counterparts of social services that
the issue of children with disabilities was on the agenda.
It was very clear from that meeting that all governments need to
make sure when they are building policies in support of our
children that they are inclusive and that they do recognize the
special needs of Canadian children with disabilities.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
1505
[English]
CANADIAN INSTITUTES OF HEALTH RESEARCH ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-13, an
act to establish the Canadian Institutes of Health Research, to
repeal the Medical Research Council Act and to make consequential
amendments to other acts, be read the second time and referred to
a committee.
The Deputy Speaker: When debate was interrupted before
question period the hon. member for Halifax West had the floor.
He has 16 minutes remaining in his allotted time.
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, as I
was saying earlier in my speech, I am very pleased to touch upon
the topic of the Canadian Institutes of Health Research. I was
about to give a bit of background with respect to the bill.
The objective of the Canadian Institutes of Health Research bill
is to establish institutes to excel according to internationally
accepted standards of scientific excellence in the creation of
new knowledge and its translation into improved health for
Canadians, more effective health services and products, and a
strengthened Canadian health care system.
We know that health care and health research go hand in hand.
Without proper health research it is very difficult to have good
health care. The health care that one receives has to be related
to research and properly applied.
As was indicated earlier by the hon. member for Winnipeg North
Centre, we support the bill up to committee stage, at which time
we will probably make some suggestions aimed at improving it. We
will try to improve it with the best interest of Canadian
citizens in mind.
I want to add my voice to the record in giving thanks to Dr.
Henry Friesen and many others who contributed to bringing the
bill forward.
Let us look at what happened between 1994 and 1997. We know
that the government continuously cut its investments in health
research. Between those years the per capita funding of health
research fell from $9.14 to $7.92. Canada became less
competitive in its funding levels compared to other
industrialized countries including the U.S., the U.K. and France.
These cuts had several effects. They drove researchers,
including established professors, recent graduates and
post-graduate students, across the border in search of
sustainable funding. We have heard much about the brain drain,
and this is an area in which many of our skilled and talented
people have moved from Canada because of the cuts that were made
in research.
Coupled with the large scale withdrawal of federal funding and
poor social programs, cuts in health research diminished the
capacity of our health care system to care for patients and
stifled the application of new research findings.
Coupled with the withdrawal of federal funding in post-secondary
education, cuts in health research drove university
administrations to foster commercial research partnerships with
industry. These partnerships in many cases decreased academic
freedom due to an emphasis on applied research, a trend on
self-censorship among university researchers and a privatization
of research findings for the purpose of profit.
We know the difficulties that research can get into if it is so
closely tied in with corporate and commercial sponsorship that it
loses its academic freedom and independence to come forth with
accurate findings.
The bill is being brought forward to establish the Canadian
Institutes of Health Research.
This has been done in an attempt to correct some of the past
mistakes. The government has now endorsed a new model of health
research funding, the CIHR. By and large, as I said, we welcome
it as a replacement for the Medical Research Council.
1510
We understand there will be new money and we support those
efforts. By doubling the 1997-98 levels of research funding to
$500 million in the year 2001-02 Canada will regain some ground
it lost to the cuts over the past six years.
We think the legislation in its support for researchers and
academic programs will help alleviate the problem of a brain
drain in Canada, but the legislation needs to go further. Our
reservation is that the funding levels under the CIHR will still
remain disproportionate to the funding in the United States and
other industrialized countries. We would recommend increased
spending of $750 million annually, or 1% of the total annual
health care expenditure.
Research in a social context is another very important area. The
multidisciplinary, multisectoral and cross-regional approach of
Bill C-13 will ideally contextualize hard research, acknowledging
the social, cultural and environmental influences on health. Our
reservation is that this emphasis needs strengthening so that
there is a central focus on the causation and prevention of ill
health, in particular on social and environmental determinants.
We know there are many problems in society that have to be
addressed. I think, for example, of the high incidence of teen
suicide. I would mention that in my riding of Halifax West and
in the province of Nova Scotia a very strong effort is taking
place right now to create a chair on mental health for
adolescents. This is an area that is very important because we
know that if young people who are suffering from problems do not
get help then things just go downhill from there. We know the
kind of research that has been set up has to support those
efforts and move forward in a way that will help our young
people.
The goal of the legislation to apply research and to connect
health researchers to health providers is a significant
development. Again we have a bit of a reservation because we
know that to make this initiative more than an empty gesture on
the part of the government the social transfers to the provinces
need to be restored. How will new research results be applied
without adequate health care funding, equipment and the staff to
do so?
I mentioned earlier in my remarks at the end the unfortunate
circumstance that my mother-in-law met and the kind of service
she received when she was admitted to hospital. This was because
of the cuts in health care funding where there is inadequate
staff and inadequate facilities to accommodate the kinds of
situations we see today.
My hon. colleague spoke earlier about commercialization. I will
not repeat the remarks she made in that regard, but she also
talked about the governing council that will be set up under the
legislation. A governing council will be appointed to set the
priorities and the goals of Canadian health research in all
institutes. Each institute will have an appointed institute
advisory board to set institute specific goals. The appointment
criteria of these boards, however, are not specific and are
insufficient.
Appointees, I might note, at the discretion of the Prime
Minister need only reflect scientific excellence and relevant
background. What guarantees do Canadians have that industry or
pharmaceutical interests will not override the public interest?
We recommend that the appointment criteria be specifically
defined and that a public voice be dominant. This is very
important.
In this regard I received a letter in June of this year from Dr.
Stan Kutcher who is with the Association of Chairs of Psychiatry
in Canada. He pointed out with respect to these health
institutes that they would like to see an institute of mental
health and mental illness established as well. There is another
whole area that has to be considered with respect to these
institutes.
As well, with respect in particular to the governing council, I
received a letter from the Palliative Care Association of Nova
Scotia in which it indicated that it would like to have someone
on the board of that governing council. Again, there is a lot of
interest in this particular concept and a lot of support from the
various associations and the various communities.
They want to have a say in how these institutes will work so that
their concerns will not be overlooked.
1515
We talked about ethics a bit earlier and the importance of
ethics in this whole concept. To us and many in the bioethical
community, including the National Council on Bioethics in Human
Research, the consideration of ethics is inadequate. It has to
be a dominant part of this legislation. Ethics, particularly in
dealing with human research subjects, should override all
research projects. We think this is a very important point that
has to be taken into consideration. This protection should be
entrusted to an independent, arm's length body which will be
directly accountable to government.
As we look at this whole issue of health research institutes, we
realize that health care is not something that is looked at in a
vacuum. There are many things that tie into proper health care.
It brings to mind many other concerns in our society that we must
deal with in a meaningful way if the creation of these health
institutes is to be meaningful.
For example, something we have heard a lot about recently is
child poverty. We know that tomorrow we will celebrate the 10th
anniversary of the all-party motion passed in 1989 to eradicate
child poverty by the year 2000. We know that poor children have
health problems. Again, there is a tie-in. If children are
living in poverty, they are due to have health problems. When we
think about the creation of the health institutes we have to take
into consideration child poverty.
Homelessness is another very serious issue that is confronting
our society. Many of the people who are experiencing
homelessness are people who were institutionalized. They were
released from institutions without the proper supports being in
place. The cuts that have taken place do not allow the proper
follow-up facilities for a lot of these people and they end up on
the street. This is another area that ties in very closely with
the whole concept of health care and research.
If we look at the problems of health in our aboriginal
communities we see high incidents of diabetes and various other
diseases. We see a shorter life expectancy among our aboriginal
people. All of these issues are very serious health concerns.
There is the high incidence of teen suicide in aboriginal
communities and a lot of other communities throughout the nation.
These are all things that have to be looked at very closely if we
are to make a very meaningful inroad with respect to health care.
Then we have the environmental issues. We see spraying taking
place. People who are sensitive to chemicals are quite often
prisoners in their own homes. There is one lady in my riding who
is not able to go out during certain times of the year because
the people next door spray their lawn with pesticides and
chemicals to which she is very susceptible. It is almost life
threatening for her and for many others.
These are very important issues, all of which can be dealt with
through proper scientific research and proper health research.
That is why these institutes are very important, but we must see
the connections and we must be able to bring the whole thing
together in a meaningful way.
I also think of the example of gulf war syndrome. We hear about
a lot of soldiers coming back from tours overseas and the
sicknesses they are experiencing because of exposure to various
toxins and substances. In many cases they are trying to get
help, but they are not able to get the kind of help they need.
These are very serious health concerns which come to mind as we
discuss this issue.
I also think about the anthrax vaccinations. We are putting
substances into the bodies of our soldiers who go overseas. They
do not have the right to say no, they do not want to be
vaccinated, because they will be court martialled for disobeying
an order.
These are all issues that tie in very closely with the whole
concept of health and these are all things which we have to give
very serious consideration.
I am very pleased to have had the opportunity to speak to this
bill. As I indicated earlier, having followed it from its
inception, I see it as a very important tool to enable our
society to move forward in a progressive way to address some of
the health concerns of Canadians. However, we must do it with a
sense of fairness so that the people who will be affected will
have an adequate say in how these things move forward. We want
to keep in mind fairness in representation on the boards,
fairness in process, transparency and all of those very important
things that go along with making our country truly a democratic
system.
1520
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Mr.
Speaker, the member mentioned not knowing how many institutes
there will be. I think that is worth more explanation by the
member because we are all concerned about it. We are working in
a vacuum, with not a whole lot of transparency.
We support in principle the bill, as I have mentioned before.
However, I think that is something that has to be brought out in
committee. We deserve more explanation than what we have been
given in the bill and by the minister today.
The member touched on the fact that the appointments will be
made by the Prime Minister. When we are talking about the
governor in council appointing the president of the CIHR, we are
talking about the Prime Minister appointing the president.
Governor in council means a political appointment by the Prime
Minister.
There has to be a better way to do that. Not only will the
Prime Minister be appointing the president, he will be appointing
the council as well. We are moving into the next millennium and
we are still doing it the old way. Can something new not be
considered in the appointment of these senior positions? Surely
to goodness we can move beyond just simply appointing through
patronage. I hate to say the word patronage, but is there not
some way that we can move beyond the old way of appointing
people?
Mr. Gordon Earle: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to
comment upon the issue of fairness when it comes to appointments
and the issue of ethics. As members may know, I introduced in
the House a private member's bill on a code of ethics for
parliamentarians. A key part of that bill involved the whole
concept of an ethics counsellor who would be independent and who
would be accountable to parliament, not to the Prime Minister or
to any minister of the House.
That to me is an essential part of the democratic system, that
we have accountability, as well as openness, transparency and
fairness. That is something which has to be built into this
legislation as well.
The hon. member was quite right in pointing out a concern about
how the appointments will be made. I would certainly support the
idea that these appointments should be made in a manner that will
be fair, open and transparent and will be accountable to the
people who will be the end users of this new service.
I commend the hon. member for making that point. In my remarks
I mentioned some of the groups that had written to me expressing
their wish to be involved in the governing council. I mentioned
the palliative care community wanting to have representation on
the governing council. There are many other groups which are
concerned about this as well.
These are the details we will be bringing forward at committee
stage to try to bring forward amendments to ensure that kind of
fairness.
Mr. Greg Thompson: Mr. Speaker, I think we are on the
right track in examining the bill.
I point out clause 17 of the bill to the hon. member, which is
found at page 9. The Prime Minister will be appointing the
governing council. Clause 17 states:
That is the point we are making. I hope that the Canadian
public is listening.
What this will lead to, and I think the member might agree with
me, is the difficulty that Health Canada has had in the past. I
bring to the member's attention the case of Dr. Chopra, who was
one of the scientists who testified on the shredding of documents
which had to do with the BST hormone issue.
Basically he was silenced by the government. He was told to shut
his mouth and go away quietly. But he did not. He appealed
through the human rights tribunal, which sided with him. That
was a huge victory for him and other public servants.
1525
We want some safeguards built into the system so that we will
not be confronted with the same type of situation where there is
some independence being exercised which is arm's length from
government. I cannot see that in the bill as presently written.
The member might agree with me. Obviously it is one of the
changes that we would like to see in the bill and possibly
entertain in the next few days as we go into committee. Maybe
the member could comment on that specific section of the bill.
Mr. Gordon Earle: Mr. Speaker, indeed I will comment on
that particular section. I think the hon. member has drawn out a
very valid point about which we ourselves have concern.
As he mentioned, there is a governing council, and if we look at
clause 7 of the bill, the governing council shall consist of not
more than 20 members, one of whom shall be the president. When
we go to the next subsection we see that each of those members
will be appointed by the governor in council, which means
cabinet, which means the Prime Minister, and that is where the
concern comes in.
When we look at clause 17, which the hon. member cited, it does
not really matter what powers that governing council has if it is
not independent from those who appointed it. That is the point.
There has to be a clear method of appointment which allows for
independence. That is why I mentioned earlier in my speech that
we recommend that the appointment criteria be specifically
defined and that a public voice be dominant.
We feel it is very important, and I am sure the hon. member who
asked the question will agree that the public should have a say
in how these things function. Therefore, I am hopeful that we
can change the appointment aspect at committee stage so that we
will have a proper method of appointment which will enable a true
public voice to have a say over these councils.
Ms. Carolyn Bennett (St. Paul's, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
will be sharing my time with the member for Oak Ridges.
It seems like a long time ago, our first caucus in Collingwood,
where indeed all members of the Liberals caucus were very, very
worried about the state of medical research in this country. It
was January 1998, and since that time we have come to a day where
members of parliament like myself are almost on a daily basis
receiving extraordinarily wonderful letters from members of the
research community in our country.
I would like to quote Dr. Challis, from the department of
physiology, in the faculty of medicine at the University of
Toronto:
The mood of the research community at the University of Toronto
has never been so positive. The announcement, in the February
budget of more funding for health research and the creation of
CIHR, the reference to health research in the Speech from the
Throne and the Prime Minister's announcement of the 21st Century
Chairs for Research Excellence have contributed immensely to our
confidence in performing vital research in Canada.
In my view, the legislation is well balanced and enables the
Governing Council to make all decisions necessary in terms of
funding programs, creation of institutes, appointment of
scientific directors and advisory board members.
He continues with his thanks.
It was shortly after that Collingwood caucus that I had the
opportunity to go to Winnipeg to meet with Jon Gerrard, who had
previously been the minister for science and technology and who,
on a napkin in the local deli, described to me his vision, with
that of Dr. Henry Friesen, of what the Canadian Institutes of
Health Research could look like.
Today we look at all of the concerns that were expressed and
what was not happening in the previous model. There are concerns
about a pure medical model in health research. We did not have
an evidence based practice. The social determinants of health,
poverty, violence and the environment were not being adequately
dealt with in our present system. There was just not enough
money for even the pure biomedical research that would actually
get us a cure. These were huge concerns back in the spring of
1998.
1530
From that day until February 1999 when we signed the health
accord and the social union contract there have been commitments
to move toward accountability, transparency and best practices.
It means that we get to finally move to the whole issue of what
we do to keep the country healthy and how we move to be truly
accountable in the outcomes of health care delivery. The
solution is clear.
[Translation]
With regard to Canadian institutes of health research, Bill C-13
speaks of health research as the way to the future. A national
coalition made up of the industry, the volunteer sector, the
scientific community, universities and colleges, governments,
hospitals, health care centres, venture capital, the research
council and consumers, supports the CIHRs.
It is very important to take this opportunity to transform
research, to fragment it into a truly integrated system.
The goal of the CIHRs is very clear. Their mission is excellence
in accordance with recognized international standards of
scientific excellence in the development of new knowledge and in
using it to improve the health of Canadians, provide better
health products and services, and strengthen the health care
system in this country. The challenge is huge.
[English]
It is truly important that we move in a system that is
integrated in terms of research. There will clearly be
cross-cutting research themes, the basic biomedical science that
must be peer reviewed and must be appropriately funded, and the
applied clinical research that we must have to know whether what
we are actually doing enables better outcomes.
The research in health services and health systems delivery is
imperative in the fact that we no longer spend money in a way
that does not work. We have to move to true accountability and
stop the unnecessary surgery, unnecessary prescribing and
unnecessary testing that are costing the government a huge amount
of money.
There is the whole idea of society, culture and health of the
population which can be a part of any integrated system of
research. As well, there is the cross-country processes of peer
reviews, knowledge management, ethics and partnerships which are
so important.
It is clear to all researchers in the country, to all voluntary
health sectors, and particularly to consumers that this is indeed
a benefit for Canadians. CIHR will indeed help improve the
health of Canadians and their families with new health
discoveries, treatments and practices, and a much better
understanding of the broad determinants of health.
The improvements to our health system and services will mean the
ultimate sustainability of our health care system. It is a made
in Canada solution for made in Canada research and products and
an amazing opportunity for Canadian research excellence to be put
forward on a global frontier.
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Mr.
Speaker, the member who just spoke has all kinds of credentials
in the medical profession. We understand and appreciate that.
I am sure she would want to refer to page 9, subclause 17(1)
which deals with the governing council. I remind her that the
governing council will be appointed by one person, the Prime
Minister of Canada. In part the subclause reads:
(a) appoint, layoff or terminate the employment of the employees
of the CIHR; and
(b) establish standards, procedures and processes governing
staffing, including the appointment, layoff, or termination of
employment—
It goes on and on. If we turn to page 10, subclause 20(1)
reads:
(a) establish, maintain and terminate divisions of the CIHR, to
be called Health Research Institutes;
(b) create an Advisory Board for each Health Research
Institute...and
(c) appoint a Scientific Director for each Health Research
Institute;
1535
The question again goes back to the arm's length relationship
with the government and the independence we would like to see in
these institutes. I cannot see where there will be any
independence. The strong arm of the Prime Minister will be on
the very body that is being created.
Is there not a new, a better way, a more creative and more
intelligent way to set up a body that will move us into the 21st
century in terms of medical research?
Ms. Carolyn Bennett: Mr. Speaker, I reassure the hon.
member that the research community has been extraordinarily
consulted in the setting up of these institutes.
The interim governing council of the institutes has had
subcommittees working on all matters from programs to peer review
ethics, to knowledge management, to institute design,
partnerships and commercialization. The subcommittees will be
reporting and there will be a process by which there will be
public feedback on those matters.
To repeat the letter I received from a researcher at U of T, the
legislation is well balanced and enables the governing council to
make the necessary decisions. It is important we understand that
there will be a scientific advisory capability and a filter by
which true scientists will be made heads of the institutes, true
scientists will be put in positions of authority. It will be a
process that scientists, and particularly the interim governing
council, will be extraordinarily comfortable with. It really is
important that it work.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
Canadians thought or at least assumed that medical or health
research was already being done by the Medical Research Council,
or at least that is what the Medical Research Council was
supposed to do. Now the Liberals are creating the new research
institute called the Canadian Institutes of Health Research to do
probably the same job and same work as the Medical Research
Council was supposed to do.
Why are we reinventing this wheel? Can the member shed some
light on this and answer this question? Why was the previous
organization not doing its job properly and why is the new
organization expected to do the same job in a better way?
Ms. Carolyn Bennett: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member needs
to understand the difference between health research and medical
research. What is very clear is that medical research in the old
biomedical model was not satisfying all our needs in
understanding all the determinants of health.
The Social Science Research Council was doing the work on
poverty, violence and the environment. The Medical Research
Council was merely looking at biomedical kinds of research.
It is imperative as we move forward that we have an integrated
way of looking at all these issues because we know that poor
people do not live as long. What are we to do to sort that out
and figure out what we can do about it?
The National Forum on Health was very clear about the social
determinants of health and how we have to move in these trends
from hospital to community care, from doctor to multidisciplinary
and to patient as a full partner in care, and from traditional to
complementary medicine.
There was no place in the old Medical Research Council for these
kinds of questions to be answered and they are the questions that
Canadians want answered. We now have a solution as to how to do
that without compromising the extraordinarily important
biomedical research that needs to be done. In so many issues we
just really want a cure.
Mr. Bryon Wilfert (Oak Ridges, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to speak in support of Bill C-13, an act to establish the
Canadian Institutes of Health Research.
Members of the House have had the opportunity to hear about the
important transformation CIHR will bring to health research in
Canada. Increased funding will make more resources available to
find Canada's best researchers in making the discoveries that
will make a difference to the lives of people around the world.
The structure of the institutes will provide a mechanism for
developing a strategic vision for research in thematic areas that
will meet the needs and priorities of Canadians.
1540
It will be the focal point around which all partners in the
health research process will gather, including those who fund
research, those who perform it and those who use its results.
CIHR will provide the support that is needed to make Canada the
place to be for the best and the brightest health researchers in
the world. The result will be better health for Canadians, a
better and a more efficient health care system, and economic
growth and job creation in the burgeoning life science sector.
If my hon. colleagues will excuse what is sometimes a trite
phrase, let me say that the whole of CIHR will be much greater
than the sum of its parts. The reason for this is the way that
CIHR will mobilize resources in every region of the country.
CIHR will make its impact felt in the regions through mobilizing
increased funding for health research in research centres across
Canada. It will make its impact felt through its direct effects
on the efficient and cost effective operation of Canada's health
care system. It will make its impact felt by building the
research capacity platform in centres across Canada and it will
make its impact felt through a new focus on community.
Through its focus on partnerships CIHR will take the increased
federal investment in health research and make it grow even more.
Partnerships will bring more research funders to the table to
embark on jointly funded collaborative projects. These projects
will result in an even greater level of research activity in many
centres across the country.
The Medical Research Council of Canada has had tremendous
success with its partnership programs, so much so that for every
federal tax dollar invested in health research $1.36 was spent on
health research. I have no doubt that the integrated and
co-operative structure of the CIHR will continue this successful
leveraging of our tax dollars to create an even better dividend
for Canadians. The CIHR is designed to work in partnership with
provincial and territorial health departments, with our
universities, with our health science centres and with our
research agencies.
As every member of the House is aware, responsibility for
delivering health services is the responsibility of the
provinces, but CIHR will have the potential to have a strong
positive impact on provincial health care systems. Creating new
knowledge is important, but CIHR is designed to facilitate the
process of translating research results into application and
innovation.
CIHR will establish links with provincial and territorial health
service agencies and with those responsible for delivery of
health information and health care in each province. Through
these links CIHR will help provinces acquire the evidence they
need to make important decisions about how best to deliver health
services to their residents.
Bill C-13 is an extremely important piece of legislation for the
people of my riding of Oak Ridges and for the residents of the
city of Toronto. It is about our health. It is about innovation
in our community and it is about our position in the knowledge
based economy. Toronto has had a long and proud history in
health research. Torontonians have a tremendous record of
contributing to the health of Canadians and to people around the
world through their research discoveries.
I think most obviously about Frederick Banting and Charles Best,
researchers at the University of Toronto who through their
investigative spirit and genius discovered insulin, a discovery
which has saved millions and millions of lives in Canada and
around the world. There is little doubt that it is among the
greatest Canadian achievements of the past century. To this day
it evokes tremendous pride among people in my riding and among
people across the country. The University of Toronto has named
one of its research centres the Banting and Best Institute in
honour of this historic achievement.
More recently I think of Lap-Chee Tsui, a world renowned
researcher at the Toronto Hospital for Sick Children, who
discovered the gene for cystic fibrosis.
His research in genetics and genomics is truly opening up a new
world of knowledge about our health which promises new and
effective tools to promote health and treat disease.
1545
Toronto's research community is dynamic and vibrant. It has
researchers across the full spectrum of research, from basic
molecular biologists to social scientists looking at the broad
determinants of health.
The University of Toronto is Canada's largest research
university. Given the quality of its science and the excellence
of its research, it is the most successful university in the
MRC's peer review funding competitions. This past year the
University of Toronto and its affiliated institutions received
$55 million in research funding from the MRC.
The research infrastructure in Toronto contains some of Canada's
most prized research institutions: the Hospital for Sick
Children, the Mount Sinai Hospital, the Toronto General Hospital,
the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, the Institute of
Clinical Evaluative Studies, just to name a few. The health
research conducted in Toronto is of the highest standards of
scientific excellence.
The objective of the CIHR as set out in Bill C-13 is to excel
according to internationally accepted standards of scientific
excellence in the creation of new knowledge and its translation
into improved health for Canadians, more effective health
services and products and a strengthened health care system.
While its standards of excellence may be international, its
impacts will be felt in every region of the country, whether it
is in Toronto or in the maritimes. For example, in Halifax at
Dalhousie University a doctor is studying stimulant use among
adolescents. In Montreal Dr. Thomas Hudson of the Montreal
General Hospital is examining the genetic causes of common human
diseases. It is also going to flourish in Vancouver where at the
University of British Columbia Dr. Janice Eng is studying balance
and other problems experienced by patients with Parkinson's
disease. It will flourish in centres right across the country.
I commend the bill to the House. I hope all parties will
support this very important initiative of the federal government.
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Mr.
Speaker, I would like some clarification and observations from
the member on this issue. I know he has looked at this bill
carefully.
The point I have been attempting to make and which I will
continue to make is that there is a lack of an arm's length
relationship between the CIHR and the Prime Minister. The Prime
Minister will be appointing the president of the CIHR and the
governing council of the CIHR. The governing council, after it
is appointed by the Prime Minister, will appoint the advisory
boards. There is linkage between every level of this
organization and the Prime Minister's office. I am concerned that
these people should be able to exercise their independence and
they probably will not because of the Prime Minister's hand on
the very institution we are talking about today.
In addition to the other points I have made, I remind the member
and I want to tell the public especially that the governing
council will appoint, lay off and terminate employees and
establish all the standards. It will terminate employment at
will. It will determine the organization and classification of
positions within the CIHR. It will set the terms and conditions
of employment.
The list goes on. The governing council will establish, maintain
and determine divisions in the CIHR to be called health research
institutes, create the advisory board and appoint the scientific
director.
1550
I am looking for some sense of autonomy between this
organization and the Prime Minister's office. In this piece of
legislation I do not see that.
These are serious concerns that have to be addressed in the
committee. As I said, we are prepared to support the bill, but
the major concerns in terms of how this is set up, the structural
component of this institution, have to be closely examined.
Before I sit down, the other point I will make for the hon.
member to reflect on is on the reporting mechanism. There is no
provision in the bill, other than for the minister to table a
report in the House, for the House to debate the performance of
this institution. We will not have an opportunity to do that.
In five years time, the government will review its operation,
but in the meantime, the control has gone beyond parliament
completely. Members of parliament will no longer have the
opportunity to determine whether it is meeting its mark, whether
it has missed it by a mile, or whether there has to be a
rejigging of the configuration of the organization. So many
different things are missing from this bill that should be
addressed and can be addressed. I would like to have the member
comment on that.
Mr. Bryon Wilfert: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate my
colleague's observations. I certainly appreciate his indication
that in general his party supports the legislation.
The hon. member is quite correct that if there are specific
concerns he or others may have, when the bill goes to committee
they will certainly be able to discuss them.
I would indicate that the CIHR was enthusiastically supported
after much consultation by a wide coalition of Canadian health
research partners across the country in terms of the structure.
The hon. member pointed out some very specific concerns with
regard to the Prime Minister, and if I understood the member
correctly, the independence of this body. This is what has been
suggested after much consultation. It would seem that many of
the proposals and the structure itself originated in those
consultations with the research community.
No doubt there will be witnesses before the committee. If there
are those in the health community who have those particular
concerns, as has been suggested by my hon. colleague, they will
have the opportunity to present them to the committee. I presume
that if the will of the committee is such, it will make
amendments in its recommendations.
It is important to note that the interim governing council to
the minister worked extremely closely with the health research
community. I want to stress that in terms of what we have before
us today.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey (Chicoutimi, PC): Mr. Speaker, I am especially
pleased to work on an issue my colleague from New Brunswick
Southwest is involved with. When he talks about health care, he
really knows what he is doing. He has lived through things that
gave him the opportunity to have a closer look at the issue.
When a government talks about research and development, it is
obvious that people of good faith will find it difficult to
oppose, in principle, a bill that deals with medical research
and will promote the development of several regions of the
country.
At the time I was sitting with my colleague from New Brunswick
Southwest. We were talking about medical research, especially in
the pharmaceutical field. We know what impact the bill passed at
the time has had on the country as a whole, and particularly in
the Montreal area. This is a example we like to give.
1555
With regard to space research, I am pleased to see the
government is also continuing its efforts in that direction,
with all the impact research has had in areas where, a few years
ago, we had absolutely no expertise. I am sure these examples
will convince everyone that research is the basis for
everything. This is true throughout the world. Without research,
be it medical or any other type, there is no development.
I could give you other examples, one of which immediately comes
to mind, namely aluminium. I will get back to the issue of health
in a moment. I am pleased to see that the Secretary of State for
the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of
Quebec is here. There has been no job creation in the aluminium
sector in Quebec. In fact, nearly 10,000 jobs were lost. The
reason for that—and I am glad to see the secretary of state and
the industry minister are aware of that reality—is that the lack
of research in a primary sector always results in job losses.
Nevertheless, I am happy to say this bill will ensure that
several cities in Canada will have the opportunity to take their
place in the area of medical research, and we all hope this will
create jobs.
There is not a city in the world that did not need research or
labs for its development. I am thinking of Montreal, for example,
and cities like Toulouse, where the aeronautical and chemical
industries played a key role in the city's development, or
Boston, with its technological institute. Research created tens
of thousands of jobs in these regions.
Investors are attracted to places where they know they will be
able to find a pool of qualified researchers. This applies to
the health sector as well as any other sector. Take cities like
Grenoble or Tours, in France, whose development was boosted by
research in the transportation sector, particularly with regard
to the high speed train. And let us not forget Bombardier, which
helped us develop an expertise that makes us one of the best in
the world today.
Unfortunately, there are still too many sectors where Canada
does not put enough emphasis on basic research.
I am thinking about the forest product industry, the aluminium
industry and the health area, except for pharmaceutical
research.
Our party supports the underlying principles of this bill and
the funding of research projects that will be selected because
of their excellence and in accordance with international
criteria. The Progressive Conservative Party will support such
initiatives. We are in favour of medical research that will help
Canada maintain and increase its competitiveness in research
activities, which are currently creating more jobs than any
other area.
In Canada, we must stop relying only on jobs in resource-based
industries. There is only one way to break out of that cycle,
and it is through research. In improving the health of the
population, medical research will play a key role in increasing
productivity.
Of course, when dealing with an issue like this one, what we in
our party hope for is that, once the bill is passed and the
institutes are selected, the regions will not be forgotten, and
I want to commend the minister responsible for amateur sport for
his work in this area.
Several regions in this country are in deep trouble, because
their natural resources have all been used up and no
consideration was ever given to research that would have
supported processing of these resources in major industries.
What is happening now is that research is being carried out in
Europe and the United States. For some fifty years, research was
completely overlooked in Canada.
1600
Now we are faced with the need to do some considerable catching
up. That is why it is our fervent hope that the government,
with the assistance of the opposition parties and members, will
be able to ensure a fair distribution of the Canadian institutes
of health research, and that the regions will not be left out.
We are in a position to do good things in the regions. We are
not there just to be exploited. We are there to create
worthwhile and well-paying jobs for local people. Introduction
of this bill has created a great deal of hope in the regions of
Canada and of Quebec, and more specifically in my region of
Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean.
When this bill was introduced, many people in my region were
quick to show leadership, one of the best in the country, in
trying to show their elected representatives, both those in
opposition and those in government, the importance of moving
forward with basic research in the health field, and
particularly of not neglecting the regions.
I would like to list a few of the people in my region who have
worked very hard to ensure that the regions may one day benefit
from this project, particularly the region of
Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean.
These include Jean-Guy Boily, who has worked very, very hard to
raise the awareness of all stakeholders about basic research,
health research in particular, in our region.
There is Robert Jacques, Jean-Eudes Girard, Réjean Lafrance, Yvon
Perron, Dr. Houde, the researchers at the Hôpital de la Sagamie,
Michel Perron, Dr. Daniel Gaudet, Dr. Bégin and Gérard Bouchard of
the IREP, the Institut de recherches interuniversitaires sur les
populations. The people at the CORAMH, the Corporation de
recherches et d'action sur les maladies héréditaires, also do a
lot of work on hereditary disease. What is interesting is that
very often in my region so little is shared that everyone runs
into the same problems.
I can say that, in our region, there is very close co-operation
between the private sector, the medical sector and all the
researchers, among the entire scientific community. This also
applies to a large part of Quebec. These stakeholders work hand
in hand to introduce projects that will be structural and that
will lead to worthwhile discoveries.
I dare to hope, obviously, that the government will note the
efforts of our regions so they may be taken into account in the
establishment of these institutes.
What is interesting, and I am pleased to point this event out,
is that the government has confirmed that, next June, in the
Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean region, and more particularly in Jonquière,
an international conference will be held on genetic determinants
of health.
Our region is particular on the issue of genetic research. I am
pleased that it can put forward publicly all the expertise it
has developed laboriously in recent decades, very often with
little support from national or provincial organizations.
I am obviously pleased to point out that we will take this event
very seriously. We are not asking anything of Bill C-13.
We are asking to be recognized as people who have succeeded in
developing a very high level of expertise.
I am pleased to mention that the expertise developed by our
region is beginning to make quite an impression both in
political circles and among those who perform basic research
throughout the country.
We hope the work done by CORAMH researchers on hereditary
diseases in particular will be known to all.
1605
The ÉCOBES group at the CEGEP of Jonquière is working very hard
in co-operation with the people of CORAMH and IREP, who are
internationally renowned. That is why an international
conference will be held in our region in June.
Rest assured that we will submit extremely productive projects
not only for Quebec, but for the whole country, and—why not—for
the whole world. To many researchers, our region is an
interesting laboratory for research on hereditary diseases, on
genetics. We look forward to the creation of an institute for
research in these areas so that we can have access to more
resources.
Genetic research is no longer limited to hereditary diseases.
Today, researchers are looking at genetic predisposition to
cancer. God knows cancer affects all families. Every family is
faced with this terrible challenge.
That is to say nothing of asthma and cardiovascular diseases. I
am convinced that, if the members of the House, particularly
government members, show that they are conscious of the
importance of the research that has already been undertaken in
our regions, particularly in the region I represent—I was not
elected to represent the whole world but to represent the
Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean region, particularly the beautiful riding
of Chicoutimi, the fjord—rest assured that we will follow this
issue very closely.
We are confident that the research fostered by the establishment
of these institutes will benefit all Canadians.
I would like to highlights comments made by Pavel Hamet, the
director of research at the Centre hospitalier de l'Université
de Montréal. He was with us in Jonquière when the minister
announced the international conference.
He stated that research is indeed being carried out in Saguenay
and that it is of a very high level, because it has led to the
discovery of several genetic diseases. “Moreover, he said, the
Saguenay area is unique, because of its gene pool.”
It may come as a surprise to some of the hon. members, but he
also said that the Saguenay is the only region recognized by the
World Health Organization for its work on regional genetics.
Dr. Hamet noted that the region is home to the Institut
interuniversitaire de recherche sur les populations, or IREP, as
well as several researchers, and that a number of large families
have yet to be studied, which the WHO considers highly valuable.
He went as far as to say that it was in our national interest to
retain in the Saguenay region a group like ÉCOBES and
researchers coming from the medical community like Dr. Paul Bégin
and Dr. Daniel Gaudet, whom I and some ministers have had the
pleasure to meet.
These issues are too crucial to be debated loudly in the House
of Commons; one is even tempted to whisper when addressing them.
People like animals normally cry in pain when they are suffering
or have something to hide. As far as we are concerned, we have
every intent to see this through and to ensure that this
initiative benefits every region in the country, especially one
of the greatest regions of Quebec, that of Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean.
Researchers like Dr. Bégin et Dr. Gaudet are also members of the
research centre of the CHUL. They are major partners in many
projects, including research on high blood pressure and
neurological disorders. According to Dr. Hamet, other
collaborative projects will be carried out in the areas of
breast cancer, cystic fibrosis and neurodegenerative diseases.
God knows how important it is to look into these diseases.
1610
The director of research explains that, in the genetic sector,
the raw material comes from our region and that structural
benefits are to be foreseen.
All in all, I think it is essential that the government put some
emphasis on core research. It is important in all sectors,
including in the health sector.
I could obviously elaborate on that, particularly on the
positive results achieved, which gave prominence to Canadian
researchers who are now internationally renowned.
However, I cannot help but ask the government to pay more and
more attention to a problem that has strong links with the
medical and health sectors, that is poverty.
Lately, we have heard a lot about poverty and about how it is
destroying Canadian families. It is important to see how the
phenomenal increase in poverty is linked to health problems.
Undernourished children cannot be in good health and cannot
succeed in school. Fathers and mothers who do not earn decent
salaries cannot feed their children properly and provide them
with a minimum level of health.
That is why this is so important for this government, which has
benefited from the structural measures put in place by the
previous, Progressive Conservative government. Fairness is
important in politic. We should recognize that each successive
government normally makes a positive contribution that deserves
recognition.
Through the structural measures it put into place over several
years, the former Progressive Conservative government made it
possible for the present government to do away with the deficit.
Free trade was the most progressive of measures at the time. It
allowed us to raise our exports from $90 billion to $230 billion
over five or six years. Imagine what that represents in net
revenues for the government. We need only think of the GST,
which will bring in $24 billion this year. I can understand them
not abolishing it. I would at least ask them to make some
choices for turning things around that are important to the
public.
I trust that the government will be responsive to these crying
needs, that it will make investment choices in areas such as
poverty that will be extremely important for researchers in the
health field, and this must start at the grassroots level.
That means ensuring that mothers and fathers have enough money
to feed their children. People are in worse health if they do
not have the bare necessities.
This is why I say yes to basic research, yes to health research,
yes also to a healthier population that is in better shape
because it can afford the bare necessities of life. That is why
I spoke yesterday about the importance of looking very seriously
at inaugurating a guaranteed minimum wage. It is time we looked
at that possibility, like the European Economic Community and
Portugal will soon be doing.
There are dozens and dozens of programs to feed the poor. There
has been a 50% increase in child poverty over the past five
years. The problem is a serious one, and it is all interrelated
with health research.
War has been declared against poverty with a tool that strikes
me as likely to be the only one that could be effective.
These are matters on which we could concentrate for hours. We
are going to focus a great deal of attention on Bill C-13 as it
relates to research. As a party, we have always believed in the
importance of research.
1615
[English]
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Mr.
Speaker, I would like my colleague to comment on the structure of
the CIHR. I think it is problematic, but I would like his
opinion on this.
What we have is the Prime Minister appointing the president of
the CIHR and the governor in council, which in turn will
determine what becomes an institute. In other words, we do not
know yet what these institutes are. There is no transparency as
to how many there will be or what they will be.
There is a problem in terms of this arm's length relationship
that we would like to see between the CIHR and the Prime
Minister's office. This arm's length relationship I guess could
be called independence. The member could possibly speak on this
lack of independence, as I see it.
Also, regarding a reporting mechanism, none of us know whether
or not the goals and objectives of the CIHR will be achieved, but
there is no measuring stick and no reporting back to parliament.
Once the bill leaves the House of Commons it is out there in
bureaucratic land somewhere. In five years time, when this
agency is reviewed, there will be no input and no ability of
parliament to have any input on the structure of this new
organization.
I am saying all this, believe it or not, in the context of
supporting the bill. We do support the bill, but I think some of
these questions of independence, arm's length from government and
the reporting mechanism have to be addressed in the bill. I am
hoping the member can comment on that from a Quebec perspective.
[Translation]
Mr. André Harvey: Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his
question. As I pointed out a moment ago, a bill is never perfect
when first tabled. Obviously, our caucus, through our health
critic, the hon. member for New Brunswick Southwest, will
certainly make extremely efficient efforts to put forward
amendments concerning the administrative structure.
As part of my work on this issue, I met with many specialists in
medical research, and it is true that these are people able to
assume a lot of responsibilities. They do not want handouts.
They are able to make interesting proposals, in relation to both
the areas where research should be encouraged and management.
They will certainly have an opportunity to share their views
with the committee, and my colleague will be able to propose
amendments. This will allow us to come to an agreement on the
main thrust of Bill C-13, which is to encourage health research
by establishing research institutes. It will also enable us to
create thousands of research application related jobs for young
people looking for structural jobs.
We are dealing with a scientific community which is used to
taking charge and which did not always get the support it needed.
I am convinced that my colleague's wish will be fulfilled by the
government, because the government's goal should be to encourage
people who can carry out good research and create jobs.
Ultimately, I am sure all Canadians will appreciate and benefit
from that.
1620
It would be interesting to give researchers more scientific
responsibilities, and also administrative ones, so that
politicians can step back from the appointment process.
We are entering an era where political appointments will become
less and less acceptable. I have been reviewing the Canada
Elections Act. Just yesterday, we talked about returning
officers. For the last hundred years, they have been appointed
by each successive governing party, but we are now wondering
whether it would be better to have a process whereby the best
candidates would be appointed to these positions.
With respect to the establishment of institutes, the best would
be to have an objective mechanism in place to appoint the people
with the greatest expertise, who can deliver and achieve the
goals set out in the bill.
[English]
Mr. Greg Thompson: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I want to remind the House and the viewing Canadian
public that this is the first major piece of legislation the
health minister has had before this parliament, going back now
over two years.
The government has hardly a presence here. I am asking for a
quorum count.
The Deputy Speaker: I do not see a quorum. Call in the
members.
And the bells having rung:
The Deputy Speaker: I now see a quorum. Resuming debate,
the hon. member for Surrey Central.
Hon. John Manley: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I simply want to point out that upon the quorum call, the
hon. member from the Conservative Party left saying, “Okay,
let's leave”. It is a little disingenuous.
The Deputy Speaker: I know that the Minister of Industry
may have a grievance, but I do not think he has a point of order.
The hon. member for Surrey Central has the floor.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise on behalf of the people of Surrey Central and on behalf of
all my colleagues to respond to the government's proposal to
replace the Medical Research Council and create the Canadian
institutes of health research.
The objective, as I understand it, is to create new knowledge
and then translate it into improved health for Canadians. Before
I go into the details, I would like to extend my appreciation for
the work of Dr. Henry Friesen, who is the president of the
interim governing council, and other members of the council who
have cared about the importance of cutting edge research and who
have worked hard to put this idea together.
We want, of course, to provide Canadians with more effective
health services and products from a strengthened health care
system, not a weak system as the government has made it.
I hope the Liberals can do this with Bill C-13, which is one of
the major pieces of legislation they have proposed before the
House. I have some problems with what they say they can do, what
they will actually do, and what they will cause to be done. These
are the three different things I am concerned about.
Before I go into the details, I have many questions in my mind
that I would like to have answered by the government members. Why
are we not extending the mandate of the previous organization,
the Medical Research Centre?
Why are we not putting it on the right track? Why do the
Liberals not give the current institution the vision and the
tools to get the job done? Why are the Liberals reinventing the
wheel? Perhaps it is cash-strapped because of the $23 billion
the government cut from our health care spending. Maybe it is
because of the lower morale and the confidence of the health care
providers in the system. Maybe.
1625
Is the Medical Research Council failing because of the brain
drain that the government has caused? Are doctors, nurses,
scientists and researchers leaving our health care system and
research facilities in such large numbers that we are falling
behind in research? Maybe.
Is it that the researchers and scientists cannot afford the
technology necessary and the tools required in order to conduct
their research?
All these questions have remained unanswered so far in this
debate. I have been listening very carefully.
Why would the government allow that to happen to our research?
Did it destroy our research capabilities in order to balance the
budget? Maybe.
How much democracy is going to be created with this new
institute?
The government members should be answering these questions
during the debate today. Canadians want to know the answers to
these questions. Canadians want accountability in our research
system. The Medical Research Council has 85 employees and it
costs about $14 million per year. However, instead of creating a
new entity, why do the Liberals not work with the 85 scientists
we already have in the system and give them the tools and the
technology they need to get their work done?
The Liberals will have 20 directors to appoint if this bill
passes, 20 patronage-ridden appointments which shows from their
record. Will they be awarding these positions based on merit?
Will these positions be advertised? I doubt it, that is
important.
There is much work to be done on the bill and many
considerations to be made. There has been very little time to
consult with the various scientific communities. Who will
co-ordinate, integrate and focus the research? How will this be
handled? Will the applicants themselves, the people allowed to
do the research, direct the bulk of the research, or will the
nature of the research be directed by the advisory board forcing
applicants to apply for funding in areas dictated by a central
body?
Again, there are many areas that the health committee of the
House will want to investigate. Witnesses will need to be called
in to clarify certain aspects of the bill.
I recently received a letter from the Heart and Stroke
Foundation of Canada asking to appear before the health committee
of the House. They are looking forward to appearing before the
committee because they want to express their support for the
bill. They also have concerns that they want to put on the
table. They want to bring the foundation's unique perspective to
the work of the committee.
The represent Canadians in the cardiovascular community:
doctors, nurses and patients. The Canadian Heart and Stroke
Foundation of Canada speaks for many Canadians, including those
who have died from cardiovascular diseases. We hope they will be
allowed to give testimony before the committee, unlike the
Nisga'a hearings in B.C. As we see, the government stacked the
witnesses on the list.
The Liberal dominated committee makes it very difficult for us
to work with it. We on this side of the House want to help the
Liberals. We know they cannot see they do not have vision. We
know they do not listen to Canadians. We will hold the
flashlight for them and give them direction in their darkness. We
will try to help them do the government's committee work.
However, it is very difficult to work with the partisan-ridden
committee system that we have in the House.
1630
We would like to support this bill. We would like to support
whatever we can that will improve, develop and facilitate medical
and health research in Canada because we know that is very
important.
This bill could address the concerns of the brain drain. It
could be used to attract and retain Canada's brightest young
researchers. It is going to be hard enough to keep them in
Canada because they are overtaxed. It is shameful that many
successful young medical science graduates would go immediately
to the U.S.A. to make some serious money and pay very little tax
on the six-digit salaries they make there. It is going to be
difficult for the Liberals to convince our finest young minds to
stay in this overtaxing country. Maybe Bill C-13 could be used
to expand what we have to accommodate our scientists.
Another issue is that Bill C-13 promises a clear and concise
statement in a yearly plan that promotes the development of
research in health and science. We know that the auditor general
is continually calling on the government to be more transparent
in its reports to parliament. There are many examples of the
government not being overly forward in terms of providing the
House and Canadians with the facts and figures concerning many
initiatives.
The performance reports that the Liberals offer as supplementary
budget estimates on a semi-annual basis are not all they are
cracked up to be. They are a sham.
Let me give the example of CIDA. Parliament is quite far
removed from its operations. CIDA is left running wild, out of
control, while the government provides parliament with as little
information as possible about the mismanagement and lack of—
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I apologize to the member, but since what he said is so
interesting, I find it most unfortunate that there is no quorum.
Could you call for quorum so that the Liberal members can come
and listen to what we, on this side of the House, have to say?
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. member for
Berthier—Montcalm has requested that the Chair call for a
quorum. We do not have a quorum. Call in the members.
1635
And the bells having rung:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): We have a quorum.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Mr. Speaker, it is such an important
bill that I was surprised only two Liberals members were
listening. It is an important bill. In the last few minutes
quorum had to be called twice.
In any event, I was talking about the government reporting to
parliament. We hope that the annual report of the Canadian
Institutes of Health Research will really provide information to
the elected representatives of the country so that we may decide
whether our constituents' tax dollars are being spent wisely. We
will be anxiously awaiting the auditor general's report.
I know that time is limited and there are many things I want to
say about the bill. I cannot even pretend to deal with the
process of research grants that will be administered by the new
institutes. The selection process could attract foreign
participants who would provide us with a wealth of new
perspectives, experience and products.
We also know about agencies created by Tories and Liberals that
are at arm's length from the House of Commons. We see the
terrible waste of tax dollars squandered on million dollar
dinosaur statues, pornographic movies, free flags and hundreds of
thousands of dollars for constructing dead trees and many other
things.
We hope that these new institutes, created to operate at arm's
length from the government, will not turn into pork barrels that
the Liberals will use to pay off political favours and other
things. Hopefully high ranking scientists will be allowed to
make decisions without interference from the government.
This reminds me of the BST hormone fiasco. The government
pressed hard for scientists to approve and declare that the
bovine growth hormone was safe, but the scientists refused. They
ended up leaving their jobs over the issue. Liberal senators on
the Senate committee dealing with this were appalled at the
situation.
The effort in Bill C-13 represents our federal government's
single largest investment in research and knowledge. We want to
develop affordable and accessible health care. We need to work
on the prevention of disease, detection of disease, health care
services and treatment, new discoveries, new products and new
patents. We need to meet the health challenges of the future,
including new treatments for new strains of bacteria. We need to
fight those new strains with new antibiotics. We need to be
innovative and evaluate and improve our health care resources. We
need to deepen our understanding of health care issues and
services. We need to identify and fill in the gaps between what
we have and what we should have. We need to confront questions
of ethical standards. We need to research all of those things.
We have to work closely with the provinces, territories, our
universities, health institutions and numerous NGOs.
The minister talks about a cutting edge research centre. We
hope he can deliver it. Canadians want to see accountability,
not more bureaucracy. The minister said today that 95% of the
funding will go to research and 5% toward administration costs.
We will hold him to those figures. We will see if that happens.
1640
When President Reagan met President Gorbachev at the first
nuclear disarmament meetings, he said trust, but verify. We have
to verify whether the government sticks to its promise before we
start trusting.
Let us look at the record. We have seen the Liberals drop the
ball on an organ donor transplant system. They did not deliver.
They continue to study it while Canadians die.
We have seen the government ignore the head start program which
was supported by all sides of the House. That motion was
introduced by my colleague, the hon. member for Esquimalt—Juan
de Fuca, who has worked hard on the issue. The Liberals have
done nothing about extending the head start program from
aboriginal children to all Canadian children, even though it has
been a successful initiative elsewhere.
We all know about the Moncton and Hawaiian head start programs.
It is said that for every dollar invested there will be a saving
of $6, there will be fewer youth dropping out of school, a
reduction in teenage pregnancies and a reduction in youth crime.
It increases the bond between children and their parents. These
are all the things we know the head start program will deliver,
so why do the Liberals not go ahead with it? We will have to
wait to see what they will do on research.
Another example is smoking. We saw the government raise taxes
on tobacco and then lower them because it could not do anything
to stop tobacco smuggling. The Liberals caved in. They did not
have the political will to tackle the problem of smoking,
particularly as it concerns our children. Why not tackle the
cause of smoking related diseases by working to prevent people
from starting to smoke? Why do the Liberals limit work on
smoking problems and merely treat the diseases that flow from
chronic, long term tobacco use?
Another example is fetal alcohol syndrome. Why not stop the
syndrome instead of merely dealing with the results? That is
what the government has done on so many other issues. It
addresses the symptoms but not the cause.
Another important issue is the drug problem. Governments at the
municipal level, the provincial level and the federal level are
not dealing with this issue. The federal government could
contribute a lot to this issue. I have not seen any strong
initiative from the federal government to deal with the drug
problem. Drugs are being imported into this country and nothing
is being done. Nor has anything been done to effectively treat
drug users. The government is turning a blind eye to this
serious issue.
Other problems stem from it, for example AIDS and HIV, but
nothing is being done by this government. It believes in looking
at symptoms but not treating the causes. We hope this will not
continue to be the case.
We know that we need to work with, consult and include our
scientific community in the work that our federal government does
in the field of health. We need the input of our scientific
community to direct the research. On this side of the House we
hope that this bill will result in the creation of successful
research institutes. We want to help the Liberals achieve this
if we can.
Another example is the Surrey and White Rock Home Support
Association, which is in my riding. In Surrey Central we are
trying to establish a wellness centre for seniors. The energy
behind this effort is Mr. Ron Watson and the Surrey and White
Rock Home Support Association. Ron is a wizard when it comes to
matters of health care. He is one person who many people in our
community, myself included, look up to. The Surrey wellness
centre will benefit the elderly in our area. There is a need for
this type of accommodation.
1645
So far the Liberals have refused to allow Surrey to use
millennium project funds to get this going. The Liberals have
financed dinosaur statues, tree statues, all kinds of parties and
other things, but they will not allow the spending of millennium
project funding on such an important project that will help our
seniors. The Surrey wellness and health centre will have 1,000
beds. It will serve Alzheimer patients, geriatrics, the general
population and the terminally ill.
As I said, there is a need for that facility, but this
cold-hearted Liberal government has no vision and will not help
us. Instead, it insists on trying to get us to build a dinosaur
statue for $1 million or have a big party. We cannot use the
millennium project funds to get the home care unit going. It is
absolutely incredible.
On another issue, Alberta is creating a health care system to
try to keep Canadians from having to go to the U.S. to get
medical treatment because the health care in this country is not
working. This country has a sickness care system, not a wellness
or health care system.
There is already a three tier health care system. One tier is
regular treatment which is status quo and only in a medical
emergency. The second tier is a waiting system and 200,000
people are waiting for various treatments. The third tier is
when people do not get the desired health care and they have to
go to the U.S.
In conclusion, it is very difficult to trust the government
knowing its misguided priorities and propensity to mismanage
whatever it does.
[Translation]
Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it is with great
pleasure that I take part today in the debate on Bill C-13, the
Canadian Institutes of Health Research Act.
I must say that I am all the more delighted to do so following
my colleague from Jonquière and my colleague from
Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, who spoke this morning and made a very
good case for these institutes.
In principle, we cannot be against the establishment of these
health research institutes in various areas of public health.
Naturally, my speech will focus on Bill C-13, as presented by
the government, but I will also clarify the more problematic
aspects of this bill.
The other matter I will address is the whole issue of research
and development. There is much to say on this subject, but I
will confine myself to a few points because, for a long time,
Quebec, and Montreal in particular, did not get its fair share
of federal grants for research and development. I will come back
to that later because Montreal has been a poor cousin when it
comes to investment in research and development by the federal
government.
To have a strong metropolis, attract brains and stimulate
productive investments, what is required is investment in that
metropolis, so as to develop the various areas on which Montreal
based its economic recovery. Biotechnology is one major area in
Montreal in terms of recovery. Yet, we are still waiting for
federal productive spending in that area.
The fact that only 16% of R and D expenditures are made in
Quebec certainly raises questions. No wonder Montreal lost its
title of Canada's metropolis to Toronto. It is because the
federal government did not spend and did not want to invest in
areas that were crucial to Montreal's development.
1650
Without basic, crucial, productive and job creating investments,
Montreal will never meet its economic recovery objectives. I
will come back to R and D later.
I now turn to the priorities of Quebec and the Quebec
government. These need to be addressed because it is not true
that the federal government is the only one to promote and give
priority to scientific and technological research. It would be a
mistake to think that, with its bill, the federal government is
the only one to give priority to an area that is crucial to
Quebec's economic and technological development.
So does the Quebec government.
I remind the House that the Quebec government created a ministry
of research, science and technology. This ministry is working on
a draft science policy which will be made public in a few
months. It focuses on such critical issues as aging, and other
important areas Quebec has been working on and for which it
never received a cent from the people across the way.
I will come back to Quebec's priorities later on. At the end of
my presentation, I will give a rather telling example of what
public investments in research could accomplish.
I introduced a private member's motion to legalize the use of
marijuana for medical purposes.
We are still waiting for money from Ottawa to start clinical
trials in phase III, which would allow us to go ahead with it,
thereby allowing patients to take their drugs legally. I will
also come back to this later.
The purpose of Bill C-13 is to establish institutes of health
research. In his last budget, the finance minister gave some
indication to this effect. Today, the basis on which these
institutes will be built are set out in very concrete terms. To
establish these institutes the government acted on the
recommendations made by 34 university scientific experts.
They included Quebec and Canadian academics and scientists. Bill
C-13, which establishes these institutes, is based on the
recommendations made by these 34 experts.
Needless to say the issues that might be raised are important.
They are crucial to the people in Quebec and Canada. Among other
issues, there is the whole issue of population aging.
We are in a demographic situation where the population in Quebec
and Canada is getting older. The aging curve is going up. To a
certain extent it is harmful. In the context of renewal and of
our ability to secure the future of the Quebec and Canadian
society, technological alternatives will have to be developed to
ensure that the life expectancy of Canadians will increase.
The issue of aging is fundamental and it encompasses various
areas. Obviously, it covers every disease.
I am thinking of diseases like Alzheimer and various mental
diseases as well as various surgical procedures. Technology in
that area in essential to increase the life expectancy of
Canadians and Quebecers.
Another area of research could be arthritis. I think a lot of
Canadians suffer from this disease. I know what I am talking
about. One third of the people in my riding are over 55. This
disease affects an increasing number of people everywhere in
Canada.
1655
The issue of clinical evaluation and evaluation of technologies
also seems essential to us. Technologies cannot be developed
scientifically without verifying their accuracy at some point
and finding ways to apply them. In terms of technological
development in Canada, useful applications must be sought for
new technologies because, in the end, our goal is to improve the
quality of life of the people we represent.
This issue of clinical evaluation and evaluation of technologies
is another area in which the institutes could be called upon to
work.
In budget terms, we got a surprise. It was a surprise for me,
at least. But I discussed it with my colleague from Drummond,
who has been the Bloc Quebecois' critic on the subject for many
years. I would say that she spearheaded the entire Bloc
Quebecois strategy in the request for transfer to the provinces,
in the desire of Quebecers to have their loot, as one of our
former premiers put it. The member for Drummond said to me “We
could summarize the government's initiative in two words. I was
in attendance at the standing committee and aware of all that
was happening. It is a praiseworthy but virtual initiative”.
So the principle is praiseworthy, we will support it, but at the
same time this is a technocratic or bureaucratic blur, something
the government opposite always arranges for the various health
issues.
The budget is a surprise no longer, we know it now. The
minister was clear. In February 1999, it was made clear that
there will be a $65 million investment for the 2000-01 fiscal
year. We also learned that there would be $175 million more for
the following year.
That is a lot of money, and we must agree. But the members on
this side of the House must see to it that this money really
serves the needs of the people of Quebec. I have said this,
there is a policy currently being developed at the Quebec
department of research, science and technology and we must make
sure that these investments really meet the needs of the people
of Quebec.
The mandate is clear. It is written in black and white and in
the preamble to the bill. It appears a little further on in the
bill: it is to organize, co-ordinate and fund health research in
Canada.
As we can see, there is a willingness to organize, but there is
more. Earlier, I was reading part of the preamble and I was
somewhat surprised to see what it said. The preamble reads in
part as follows:
Whereas Parliament believes that health research institutes
should be created to coordinate, focus and integrate health
research based on—
I feel it is essential at this point to tell you that there is a
problem within the problem, with this notion of focus.
These are the issues I want to raise, because while I said we
agree with the principle, there are some problems. The first one
is that the bill does not recognize the exclusive jurisdiction
of Quebec and the other provinces in health and social services.
This should be pointed out.
1700
I will read another part of the preamble, which sheds light on
the role of the provinces under this legislation. The second
“whereas” reads as follows:
Whereas Parliament recognizes the role of the provinces in
health care and that the Government of Canada collaborates with
provincial governments to support the health care system and
health research;
So, the role of the provinces is recognized, but the federal
government continues to collaborate strongly and to focus, as
they say in the preamble of the bill.
I think care must be taken to recognize that provincial
governments, including the Government of Quebec, have exclusive
jurisdiction in this area.
Another important aspect of this bill, and one that I have a
problem with, is that, despite any statements of policy the
provinces might issue, including those from the Government of
Quebec, they do not have the authority to choose CIHRs. The
bill makes it clear that the future governing council will have
final authority. This is important, and I will read paragraph
5(c), among others, which says:
In other words, the CIHR will collaborate with the provincial
governments, but never when it comes to administration. The
Government of Quebec will never be able to define the general
direction it would like its institutes to take. I find this
very worrisome from certain points of view.
Another important aspect is that the provinces are not on an
equal footing with the other partners. Just now, I read
paragraph 5, which made this abundantly clear. Basically,
certain agencies will be placed on the same footing as a
province, which has a duly elected government and which provides
services.
In the worst case scenario, agency X could be considered on an
equal footing with a province of six to seven million people.
In this regard, I think the federal government has not really
taken into account the role of the provinces in the provision of
health care services. This is nothing new, because the
provinces have never really been considered in the overall
picture of services provided. Since 1993, the federal
government has cut $3.4 billion in provincial transfer payments
for health. In the 1999-2000 budget, the shortfall in social
transfer payments will be $1.7 billion for Quebec.
It is true that Quebec and the provinces are partners, but it
needs to be understood that we are not all equal partners.
Some of those partners, like the provinces, have duly elected
governments and certainly deserve to be involved.
I am pleased however to see that the secretary of state
responsible for the economic development of the regions in
Quebec has stayed to listen to my speech. He is the member for
Outremont, a member from Montreal. He should be aware that
various development axes and sectors have contributed to the
economic recovery of Montreal.
There was, for instance, the very dynamic sector of
biotechnology that has created a lot of jobs without any federal
support.
Given the huge amount of money announced by the finance minister
for the creation of the institutes of health research, I am
concerned about the money that will be spent in Montreal in
these sectors. It is rather surprising.
1705
The Government of Quebec currently gets only 16% of all the
structuring spending in R and D. The industry minister brags about
all the huge achievements made in Montreal and Quebec.
I see the industry minister across the way and, naturally, the
hon. member for Outremont is agreeing with the minister. It is
incredible that the man who should be protecting the interests
of Montreal and Quebec would accept that only 16% of the
structuring spending in R and D is handed over to Quebec, which has
25% of the overall Canadian population.
This is unacceptable, and I look forward to seeing how the hon.
member for Outremont will defend this position at the next
election. I can understand the Minister of Industry; he is not a
Quebec MP, but I have great difficulty understanding the hon.
member for Outremont.
You are indicating that I have only two minutes left, Mr.
Speaker. I is a pity, because I could go on for a long time.
I will conclude with something that, while not personal, is very
close to my heart, the whole issue of the use of marijuana for
medical purposes. I have been saying for a long time that we
needed to invest in research.
Canada has lagged far behind other countries for a long time,
compared to what has been done in the way of research in
California and in England. Canada has never been able to catch
up, to resume its role as an initiator, able to provide its sick
people with medication that meets a whole set of medical
criteria.
I will close on that point, for I see you are about to interrupt
me, but I must assure you that we are in agreement in principle.
And as my colleague from Drummond has said, it is a
praiseworthy bill, but one that is still a virtual one.
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of National Revenue and Secretary
of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions
of Quebec), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I will take a few minutes to
explain, not in great detail but in general, what the Government
of Canada is doing to contribute to the development of the
province of Quebec, particularly of the Montreal region, with
regard to research and development.
I would like to say that my colleague the Minister of Industry
and myself were somewhat taken aback by the comments made by the
opposition, particularly by the Bloc Quebecois, but I think this
is part of a normal pattern whereby these members try to suggest
to the people of Quebec that the federal government is not doing
anything positive. Of course, they do not want people to see
what we are really doing because it certainly does not serve
their cause. What they want is to break up the country.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Hon. Martin Cauchon: I hear them shouting on the other side,
which obviously means it hurts.
My colleague the Minister of Industry rightfully reminded me
a few moments ago that one of the best research and development
tools we have in Canada is the tax credit, which is administered
by my department, Revenue Canada. This tax credit represents
about $1.4 billion for the Canadian economy as a whole, and a
good part of that money is invested in Quebec.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Hon. Martin Cauchon: Moreover, I would like to come back to—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Hon. Martin Cauchon: If the members opposite will let me
continue, I would like to talk about biotechnology.
Biotechnology, in Montreal essentially, was established with the
assistance, the indefeasible support of the Canadian government
and of my colleague in industry, especially through the creation
of the biotechnology research institute, which gave a lift to
biotechnology in Montreal.
The greatest number of researchers in the field of biotechnology
in the world may be found connected with the BRI.
1710
In the space sector, the Canadian space agency, which is in the
greater Montreal area, is also a source of pride for the people
of Quebec and our government.
On the subject of aeronautics, through technology partnerships
Canada, my colleague at the Department of Industry intervened
with Pratt and Whitney, Bombardier and CAE, and others. And
those people over there will tell us we are not supporting
development in Quebec. We are doing a lot and will continue to
do so.
Mr. Bernard Bigras: Mr. Speaker, I like what my colleague, the
hon. member for Outremont, is saying. Because that is what he
is, first and foremost, the hon. member for Outremont. He should
remember that.
The secretary of state can list all the things the federal
government announced in research and development, he can talk
about billions of dollars and millions of dollars—I admit that—
but in terms of net amounts, Quebec receives 16 % of federal
spending.
Overall, Quebec does not receive its fair share—
An hon. member: Oh, oh.
Mr. Bernard Bigras:—and that is rather unfortunate. The Bloc
will always be here to demand that Quebec receive its fair share
of federal spending on goods and services.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I will go first to the
hon. member for Saanich—Gulf
Islands.
[Translation]
Hon. Martin Cauchon: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I
think this is necessary.
When it is said that 16 % of research and development funds go
to Quebec, this is absolutely false. The percentage—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Nice try. Does the
hon. member for Saanich—Gulf Islands yield?
Mr. Gary Lunn: Mr. Speaker, I will defer to my colleague
on the other side, as I hope to be the next speaker and I will
raise my point then.
[Translation]
Hon. Martin Cauchon: Mr. Speaker, when there is a reference to
the notion that 16 % of research and development funds go to
Quebec—
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: This is a debate, not a point of order.
Mr. Bernard Bigras: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Unless you
tell me today that you just recognized the hon. member for
Outremont for a second time, I want to tell you that what he
just said in these few words is a point of debate. He is totally
out of context. I would ask you—
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Perhaps I was not
clear. I recognized the hon. minister on questions and comments.
The hon. member for Saanich—Gulf Islands did not yield it.
[Translation]
Hon. Martin Cauchon: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I notice that the statements I am making in the House—
Mr. Bernard Bigras: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I ask that you check to see if we have a quorum.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. member for
Rosemont has called for a quorum. I do not see a quorum. Call
in the members.
1715
And the bells having rung:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): We have a quorum.
[Translation]
Hon. Martin Cauchon: Mr. Speaker, let me come back to the point
I was making just before all the Bloc members left the House,
because when we speak about the truth, about what the Canadian
government is doing in Quebec, they do not like to listen and
they certainly do not want the people to hear about such things.
But I was about to deal with the aeronautical industry.
I mentioned Technology Partnerships Canada, which spends about
50% of its budget in the province of Quebec. The Minister of
Industry approached a number of corporations, including
Bombardier, CAE Électronique and Pratt & Whitney. So, it was a
very significant program that created a critical mass in the
greater Montreal area and helped to develop an industry that has
made quite an impact not only in Quebec and in Canada, but
internationally as well, and the Canadian government is very
proud of its contribution to this success story in Quebec.
The Canadian Foundation for Innovation also got involved in the
work of several research centres, in order to build a
forward-looking, knowledge-based industry.
I recently had the opportunity to be the guest speaker at a
breakfast meeting held by the Inno-Centre of Montreal. At this
networking breakfast, I announced that the federal government,
in collaboration with the Inno-Centre, will be spending
$4.5 million in seed money especially to help launch
technological businesses. Again—
Mrs. Pauline Picard: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I
would like to know if the minister is taking part in this debate
on research institutes or if he is still on questions and
comments. I rose to speak when he finished his first question,
but the member—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mrs. Pauline Picard: Could I please have the floor, Mr. Speaker?
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I will take the
floor. This is what happened. I am sorry, I will have to do
this in English because my French just is not good enough.
When there is a member representing a party other than the party
that gave the speech, the other member on his or her feet will be
recognized even if it is a second or third question.
In this particular instance the member for Saanich—Gulf Islands
rose to ask a question. He decided not the ask the question. The
member for Outremont rose and was recognized. Even though it was
his second question he was from a different party. That is the
reason.
That is always the way it has been done. If other chair
occupants choose to do it differently that is up to them, but I
would never have recognized a member from the same party to ask a
question if there is another member from a different party on his
or her feet. That is the reason.
The member for Outremont has 30 seconds to ask a question.
[Translation]
The member for Rosemont will then have two minutes to answer.
Hon. Martin Cauchon: Mr. Speaker, I find interesting that the
Bloc Quebecois is making statements that are not accurate. It is
interesting to see that when we give an answer, they do not
really want an answer.
1720
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Hon. Martin Cauchon: It is difficult to continue, because of all
the shouting on the other side, which obviously means it hurts.
They are obviously against any positive action by the Canadian
government—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Hon. Martin Cauchon: That is what we are doing and will continue
to do even though they do not want us to continue to help the
people of Quebec.
Recently, I attended a breakfast with the Inno-centre group,
where we have invested—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I listened carefully to the Minister of National Revenue
and he did not ask any question. He made a comment to say the
Bloc Quebecois did not agree. We never said the Bloc Quebecois
was against research institutes.
The minister must understand that we are on questions and
comments.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): This is the period for
questions and comments. That was a comment. Perhaps it will be a
question at another time.
The hon. member for Rosemont has two minutes left for his
answer.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): There is ten minutes for
questions and comments. The hon. member now has a minute and a
half left.
Hon. Martin Cauchon: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. We
had some time to reply. I wanted to use that time to reply on
behalf of the government, on behalf of my team. It is obvious
that I was not able to reply in a satisfactory manner because—
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. minister in
another minute can stand to respond for the government on debate,
but this is questions and comments. If the hon. minister would
like to pose a question, please go ahead.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I believe there is a rule here in this House, to the effect that
a minister or member of parliament may ask a question to the
hon. member who just made a speech, but that person should be
given sufficient time to reply.
The minister has a lot to say, I see. He simply should have his
name put on the list of those who want to speak for 20 minutes,
like everyone else in this House, and not take up the time of
the member who is making a speech in reply to the outrageous
claims made the minister.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All right, that is
enough. We are finished. There are no more points of order.
The hon. member for Rosemount has two minutes.
[Translation]
Mr. Bernard Bigras: Mr. Speaker, it seems that facts are
upsetting to that side of the House. The fact is that 16% of
federal research and development money goes to Quebec, while the
province accounts for more than 25% of the country's population.
An hon. member: This is not true.
Mr. Bernard Bigras: Mr. Speaker, I could have gone further. I
could have provided some statistics that show precisely that
Montreal, which is represented by the secretary of state and
member for Outremont, among others, does not get its fair share
of goods and services from the federal government. We are
talking here about productive spending, about federal spending
that creates jobs. Quebec comes up short, on this score.
If the minister does not agree with these figures, let us hear
him say so. These are the facts.
The secretary of state responsible for the Canada economic
development for Quebec regions agency, who is a member of
parliament from Montreal, should be in a position to challenge
what I am saying. I tell him not to start listing various small
projects, but to look at the overall actual results and to
assess them.
1725
[English]
Mr. Derek Lee: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order
dealing with consultations between House leaders. There have
been consultations and I think you would find consent in the
House to adopt the following order dealing with the televising of
a committee of the House:
That the House, pursuant to Standing Order 119(1), authorize the
Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development
to televise its meetings on Wednesday, November 24, in the
afternoon and on Thursday, November 25, in the morning during its
study on Bill C-9, an act to give effect to the Nisga'a final
agreement in accordance with the guidelines pertaining to
televising committee proceedings.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon.
Parliamentary Secretary has put a motion before the House. We
will do this in two phases. Does the hon. Parliamentary
Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons
have consent of the House to put the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is it the pleasure
of the House to accept the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Derek Lee: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
Some members opposite may treat this matter a little lightly, but
I would point out that all House leaders have agreed to this
order. If members of the—
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I am sorry, that is
not a point of order. We asked for consent and we did not get
it. That is something to be taken up behind the curtains.
Mr. Gary Lunn: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I
have been sitting in the House for the last half hour listening
to this debate and to questions and comments. I have been
listening to the members of the Bloc—
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): That is not a point
of order, either. We have two minutes left on debate.
[Translation]
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of National Revenue and Secretary
of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions
of Quebec), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I want to continue to explain to
the people of Quebec as a whole the action the Canadian
government has taken.
As I said before we just intervened with Inno-centre, to the tune
of $4.5 million; this is very critical and very important for
the greater Montréal area, since we are talking about action
targeted at the pre-start-up level in the high technology sector,
in other words the knowledge-based economy.
Of course, the people opposite do not want to hear or understand
that the Canadian government plays a major role in Quebec. I
want to outline the Canadian government's action strategy for
the greater Montreal area, a strategy that was introduced in
1996 and involved the intervention of Team Canada as a whole in
the greater metropolitan area.
Today the results of this strategy are remarkable. We are
talking about close to 1,800 projects which have been approved
since 1996 under our strategy for Montreal. These investments
have a leverage effect and total more than $3 billion. The
contribution of Economic Development Canada alone, my department
when it comes to economic development, is in the order of $785
million. In terms of jobs created or maintained by this, we are
talking of almost 20,000 jobs in the greater metropolitan area.
The Canadian government is proud of what it is doing in Quebec
and in greater Montreal.
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold: Mr. Speaker, I have a question. Are we
still at questions and comments?
Some hon. members: Or is the minister making a speech?
1730
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): We should normally be
resuming debate, but unfortunately the time allocated for the
bill has expired.
[English]
Pursuant to order made Thursday, November 18, 1999, the House
will now proceed to the taking of the deferred recorded divisions
as listed on today's order paper.
Call in the members.
1750
And the bells having rung:
The Speaker: Order please. So that there will be
understanding in the House, there is agreement that we take the
amendment relating to the business of supply as a first vote. Is
it agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
* * *
SUPPLY
ALOTTED DAY—NISGA'A FINAL AGREEMENT
The House resumed from November 22 consideration of the motion,
and of the amendment.
The Speaker: Pursuant to order made on Monday, November
22, 1999, the House will now proceed to the taking of the
deferred recorded division on the amendment relating to the
business of supply.
1800
(The House divided on the amendment, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Anders
| Bailey
|
Benoit
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Cadman
|
Casson
| Chatters
| Cummins
| Duncan
|
Elley
| Epp
| Forseth
| Gilmour
|
Goldring
| Gouk
| Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
|
Hanger
| Harris
| Hart
| Hill
(Macleod)
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Jaffer
| Johnston
|
Kenney
(Calgary Southeast)
| Kerpan
| Konrad
| Lowther
|
Lunn
| Manning
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
|
Mayfield
| McNally
| Meredith
| Morrison
|
Nunziata
| Obhrai
| Pankiw
| Penson
|
Reynolds
| Ritz
| Schmidt
| Scott
(Skeena)
|
Solberg
| Stinson
| Strahl
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
|
Vellacott
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
– 55
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alarie
| Alcock
| Anderson
|
Assadourian
| Axworthy
| Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
|
Baker
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
|
Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellehumeur
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
|
Bevilacqua
| Bigras
| Blaikie
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
|
Brison
| Bryden
| Bulte
| Byrne
|
Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
|
Cardin
| Carroll
| Casey
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
|
Chrétien
(Saint - Maurice)
| Clouthier
| Coderre
| Collenette
|
Comuzzi
| Copps
| Crête
| Dalphond - Guiral
|
Davies
| Desjarlais
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
|
Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
| Dromisky
|
Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duceppe
| Duhamel
|
Dumas
| Eggleton
| Finlay
| Folco
|
Fontana
| Fry
| Gagliano
| Gagnon
|
Gallaway
| Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
| Godfrey
|
Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Goodale
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Guay
| Guimond
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
| Hubbard
|
Ianno
| Iftody
| Jackson
| Jennings
|
Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keddy
(South Shore)
|
Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
|
Kraft Sloan
| Lalonde
| Laurin
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Lefebvre
| Lill
| Limoges
(Windsor – St. Clair)
|
Lincoln
| Longfield
| Loubier
| MacAulay
|
MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Manley
| Marceau
| Marchand
| Marleau
|
Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| McCormick
| McDonough
| McGuire
|
McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
|
Mercier
| Mifflin
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
|
Mitchell
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Normand
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
|
Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
|
Perron
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Pillitteri
| Plamondon
| Pratt
|
Price
| Proctor
| Proud
| Reed
|
Richardson
| Robillard
| Rocheleau
| Rock
|
Saada
| Sauvageau
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Sekora
|
Serré
| Shepherd
| Solomon
| St. Denis
|
St - Hilaire
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Steckle
|
Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Szabo
| Telegdi
|
Thibeault
| Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
| Torsney
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
|
Turp
| Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
|
Venne
| Volpe
| Wappel
| Wasylycia - Leis
|
Wayne
| Whelan
| Wilfert
| Wood
– 192
|
PAIRED
Members
Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Brown
| Canuel
| Cullen
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Desrochers
| Easter
|
Fournier
| Lastewka
| Leung
| Ménard
|
O'Brien
(Labrador)
| Redman
| Speller
| Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
|
The Speaker: I declare the amendment defeated.
Mr. Lee Morrison: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I did not hear my name called. I would just like to
confirm that my vote was taken.
The Speaker: The hon. member is recorded as having voted.
The next question is on the main motion.
1810
(The House divided on the motion, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Anders
| Bailey
|
Benoit
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
| Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Cadman
|
Casson
| Chatters
| Cummins
| Duncan
|
Elley
| Epp
| Forseth
| Gilmour
|
Goldring
| Gouk
| Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
|
Hanger
| Harris
| Hart
| Hill
(Macleod)
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Jaffer
| Johnston
|
Kenney
(Calgary Southeast)
| Kerpan
| Konrad
| Lowther
|
Lunn
| Manning
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
|
Mayfield
| McNally
| Meredith
| Morrison
|
Nunziata
| Obhrai
| Pankiw
| Penson
|
Reynolds
| Ritz
| Schmidt
| Scott
(Skeena)
|
Solberg
| Stinson
| Strahl
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
|
Vellacott
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
– 55
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alarie
| Alcock
| Anderson
|
Assadourian
| Axworthy
| Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
|
Baker
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
|
Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellehumeur
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Bergeron
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
|
Bevilacqua
| Bigras
| Blaikie
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
|
Brison
| Bryden
| Bulte
| Byrne
|
Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
|
Cardin
| Carroll
| Casey
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
|
Chrétien
(Saint - Maurice)
| Clouthier
| Coderre
| Collenette
|
Comuzzi
| Copps
| Crête
| Dalphond - Guiral
|
Davies
| Desjarlais
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
|
Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
| Dromisky
|
Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duceppe
| Duhamel
|
Dumas
| Eggleton
| Finlay
| Folco
|
Fontana
| Fry
| Gagliano
| Gagnon
|
Gallaway
| Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
| Godfrey
|
Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Goodale
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Guay
| Guimond
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
| Hubbard
|
Ianno
| Iftody
| Jackson
| Jennings
|
Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keddy
(South Shore)
|
Keyes
| Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
|
Kraft Sloan
| Lalonde
| Laurin
| Lavigne
|
Lee
| Lefebvre
| Lill
| Limoges
(Windsor – St. Clair)
|
Lincoln
| Longfield
| Loubier
| MacAulay
|
MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Manley
| Marceau
| Marchand
| Marleau
|
Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| McCormick
| McDonough
| McGuire
|
McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
|
Mercier
| Mifflin
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
|
Mitchell
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Normand
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
|
Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
|
Perron
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Pillitteri
| Pratt
| Price
|
Proctor
| Proud
| Reed
| Richardson
|
Robillard
| Rocheleau
| Rock
| Saada
|
Sauvageau
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Shepherd
| Solomon
| St. Denis
| St - Hilaire
|
St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
|
Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
|
Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
| Torsney
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
|
Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
| Venne
|
Volpe
| Wappel
| Wasylycia - Leis
| Wayne
|
Whelan
| Wilfert
| Wood
– 191
|
PAIRED
Members
Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Brown
| Canuel
| Cullen
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Desrochers
| Easter
|
Fournier
| Lastewka
| Leung
| Ménard
|
O'Brien
(Labrador)
| Redman
| Speller
| Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
|
The Speaker: I declare the motion defeated.
* * *
[Translation]
YOUTH CRIMINAL JUSTICE ACT
The House resumed consideration from November 18 of the motion
that Bill C-3, an act in respect of criminal justice for young
persons and to amend and repeal other acts, be read the second
time and referred to a committee, and of the amendment.
The Speaker: The House will now proceed to the taking of the
deferred recorded divisions of Bill C-3, an act in respect of
criminal justice for young persons and to amend and repeal other
acts.
The question is on the amendment.
1820
[English]
(The House divided on the amendment, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Alarie
| Anders
|
Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
|
Bergeron
| Bigras
| Blaikie
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
|
Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Cadman
| Cardin
| Casson
|
Chatters
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
| Dalphond - Guiral
|
Desjarlais
| Dockrill
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
|
Dumas
| Duncan
| Elley
| Epp
|
Forseth
| Gagnon
| Gauthier
| Gilmour
|
Girard - Bujold
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Goldring
| Gouk
|
Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Guay
| Guimond
|
Hanger
| Harris
| Hart
| Hill
(Macleod)
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Jaffer
| Johnston
|
Kenney
(Calgary Southeast)
| Kerpan
| Konrad
| Lalonde
|
Laurin
| Lefebvre
| Lill
| Loubier
|
Lowther
| Lunn
| Marceau
| Marchand
|
Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Mayfield
| McNally
|
Mercier
| Meredith
| Morrison
| Nunziata
|
Obhrai
| Pankiw
| Penson
| Perron
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Plamondon
| Reynolds
| Ritz
|
Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
| Schmidt
| Scott
(Skeena)
|
Solberg
| Solomon
| St - Hilaire
| Stinson
|
Strahl
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Turp
|
Vellacott
| Venne
| Wasylycia - Leis
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
|
White
(North Vancouver) – 93
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Anderson
| Assadourian
|
Axworthy
| Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
|
Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
|
Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brison
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Byrne
| Caccia
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Casey
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Chrétien
(Saint - Maurice)
| Clouthier
| Coderre
| Collenette
|
Comuzzi
| Copps
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
|
Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
| Dromisky
|
Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duhamel
| Eggleton
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Fontana
| Fry
| Gagliano
|
Gallaway
| Godfrey
| Goodale
| Graham
|
Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Harb
|
Harvard
| Harvey
| Hubbard
| Ianno
|
Iftody
| Jackson
| Jennings
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keddy
(South Shore)
| Keyes
|
Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lavigne
| Lee
| Limoges
(Windsor – St. Clair)
| Lincoln
|
Longfield
| MacAulay
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
| Marleau
|
Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| McCormick
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
|
McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mifflin
|
Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Murray
|
Myers
| Nault
| Normand
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
|
O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
|
Patry
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pettigrew
|
Phinney
| Pillitteri
| Pratt
| Price
|
Proud
| Reed
| Richardson
| Robillard
|
Rock
| Saada
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Sekora
|
Serré
| Shepherd
| St. Denis
| St - Jacques
|
Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
| Torsney
|
Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
| Volpe
|
Wappel
| Wayne
| Whelan
| Wilfert
|
Wood – 149
|
PAIRED
Members
Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Brown
| Canuel
| Cullen
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Desrochers
| Easter
|
Fournier
| Lastewka
| Leung
| Ménard
|
O'Brien
(Labrador)
| Redman
| Speller
| Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
|
Mr. Guy St-Julien: Mr. Speaker, please note that I abstained on
the amendment.
The Speaker: I declare the amendment lost.
The next question is on the main motion.
Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
1825
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Speaker: All those in favour of the motion will
please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Speaker: In my opinion the nays have it.
And more than five members having risen:
Mr. John Nunziata: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order to ask that you seek unanimous consent to apply the
previous vote to the current motion.
The Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
1830
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Anderson
| Assadourian
|
Axworthy
| Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
| Baker
| Bakopanos
|
Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bernier
(Tobique – Mactaquac)
| Bertrand
|
Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
|
Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brison
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Byrne
| Caccia
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carroll
| Casey
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
|
Chrétien
(Saint - Maurice)
| Clouthier
| Coderre
| Collenette
|
Comuzzi
| Copps
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
|
Dion
| Discepola
| Doyle
| Dromisky
|
Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duhamel
| Eggleton
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Fontana
| Fry
| Gagliano
|
Gallaway
| Godfrey
| Goodale
| Graham
|
Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Harb
|
Harvard
| Harvey
| Hubbard
| Ianno
|
Iftody
| Jackson
| Jennings
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keddy
(South Shore)
| Keyes
|
Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lavigne
| Lee
| Limoges
(Windsor – St. Clair)
| Lincoln
|
Longfield
| MacAulay
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
| Marleau
|
Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| McCormick
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
|
McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mifflin
|
Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Murray
|
Myers
| Nault
| Normand
| Nunziata
|
O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
|
Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
| Peterson
|
Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pillitteri
| Pratt
|
Price
| Proud
| Reed
| Richardson
|
Robillard
| Rock
| Saada
| Scott
(Fredericton)
|
Sekora
| Serré
| Shepherd
| St. Denis
|
St - Jacques
| Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
|
Torsney
| Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
|
Volpe
| Wappel
| Wayne
| Whelan
|
Wilfert
| Wood – 150
|
NAYS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Alarie
| Anders
|
Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
|
Bergeron
| Bigras
| Blaikie
| Breitkreuz
(Yellowhead)
|
Breitkreuz
(Yorkton – Melville)
| Cadman
| Cardin
| Casson
|
Chatters
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
| Dalphond - Guiral
|
Desjarlais
| Dockrill
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
| Duceppe
|
Dumas
| Duncan
| Elley
| Epp
|
Forseth
| Gagnon
| Gauthier
| Gilmour
|
Girard - Bujold
| Godin
(Châteauguay)
| Goldring
| Gouk
|
Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Guay
| Guimond
|
Hanger
| Harris
| Hart
| Hill
(Macleod)
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Jaffer
| Johnston
|
Kenney
(Calgary Southeast)
| Kerpan
| Konrad
| Lalonde
|
Laurin
| Lebel
| Lefebvre
| Lill
|
Loubier
| Lowther
| Lunn
| Marceau
|
Marchand
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Mayfield
|
McNally
| Mercier
| Meredith
| Morrison
|
Obhrai
| Pankiw
| Penson
| Perron
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Plamondon
| Reynolds
| Ritz
|
Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
| Schmidt
| Scott
(Skeena)
|
Solberg
| Solomon
| St - Hilaire
| St - Julien
|
Stinson
| Strahl
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
|
Turp
| Vellacott
| Venne
| Wasylycia - Leis
|
White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
– 94
|
PAIRED
Members
Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Brown
| Canuel
| Cullen
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Desrochers
| Easter
|
Fournier
| Lastewka
| Leung
| Ménard
|
O'Brien
(Labrador)
| Redman
| Speller
| Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean)
|
The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
(Bill read the second time and referred to a committee)
1835
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): It being 6.36 p.m.,
the House will now proceed to the consideration of Private
Members' Business, as listed on today's order paper.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[Translation]
SHIPBUILDING ACT, 1999
Mr. Antoine Dubé (Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, BQ) moved that
Bill C-213, an act to promote shipbuilding, 1999, be read the
second time and referred to a committee.
—He said: Mr. Speaker, it is with a great deal of emotion that I
rise today in the House to give the most important speech I have
ever given since I was elected in 1993 as the member for
Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière.
I will be dealing with the private member's bill that I have
brought forward to promote shipbuilding.
In my riding, shipbuilding is the most important issue falling
under federal jurisdiction, since the Lévis shipyard once had
over 3,000 employees and provided jobs to close to 1,200 workers
during the last two years to rebuild the oil platform Spirit of
Columbus. At some point, the overall wages reached $150 million a
year and the economic benefits often exceeded $300 million in the
regions of Quebec and Chaudières-Appalaches.
This bill is the result of a process I started more than two
years ago with Richard Gauvin, the president of the Davie workers
union, in order to bring together all the stakeholders in the
Canadian shipbuilding industry.
Why? Because we both realized that we would never get the
attention of the federal government that the Davie shipyards
needed if we did not get the other Canadian shipyards on board.
Sometimes together, sometimes individually, we approached all of
the stakeholders that could be of some help to us. I want to
thank Richard Gauvin for his valuable contribution and I want to
say hello. I know he is sitting in the gallery, along with two
members of its union executive, Bernard Demers and Nelson Roy. I
can assure the House that the Davie workers and their families
were always at the centre of my main concerns when I was
drafting this bill.
I also want to thank the management of all the shipyards I
visited in Canada during the last two years for their co-operation.
They helped me see that they were not competitors of Davie but
partners fighting the same battle—to get the federal government
to put together a real shipbuilding policy, a policy that would
allow them to compete effectively with other shipbuilding yards
in the world.
I also wish to thank all MPs in the ridings concerned who paved
the way for me to meet with the directors of these shipyards, as
well as the 100 MPs who have supported my bill this far.
People have talked about a merchant marine policy for Canada for
more than 50 years, and nothing has really been done to promote
shipbuilding per se.
1840
Since the government did not address this in the last throne
speech, today I will present three of the seven measures being
called for jointly by the Shipbuilders' Association of Canada,
which represents the owners of all the major shipyards in
Canada; the Fédération de la métallurgie CSN; the Marine Workers
Federation (CAW Canada), representing maritime workers
primarily; and the Shipyard General Workers' Federation of
British Columbia.
These demands are being supported by 160,000 people who have
sent postcards to the Prime Minister of Canada, and to all
provincial premiers who met in Quebec City on August 9.
The purpose of Bill C-213 is to promote shipbuilding in Canada
and make Canadian shipyards more competitive.
First measure: A loan and guarantee program:
(i) is guaranteed by the federal government in the event of
default in the repayment of the loan,
(ii) bears a rate of interest comparable to that available for
loans from financial institutions to large and financially
strong corporations, and
(iii) is repayable on terms comparable to those usually granted
by financial institutions to large and financially strong
corporations for the repayment of their loans;
This measure already exists in the United States, and is part of
a specific program to promote shipbuilding, known as Title XI.
Since 1993, the American government has approved financial
guarantees totalling $2.9 billion U.S. under this program.
My goal in this bill is to improve the loan guarantee program of
the Export Development Corporation. Right now, this program is
restricted to exportats only, and the maximum is 80%.
But a loan guarantee program is needed because of the very high
cost of ships and oil rigs and the long period of time required
to build them.
In the United States, the title XI program makes it possible for
American shipyards to price their ships competitively on the
international markets. It provides federal government guarantees
for financing or refinancing requirements in the private sector
for long term construction or reconstruction projects of ships
under the American flag in American shipyards.
The Canadian program should extend to Canadian and foreign owned
ships built in Canada, and it should include a Canadian
government guarantee for private loans and set interest rates
similar to those granted to big healthy corporations.
Ships eligible under the program could include commercial ships
like passenger ships, bulk carriers, self unloaders, cargos,
tankers, tugs, push tugs, barges, dredges, research ships,
pollution abatement ships, oil and gas drilling rigs, and
floating drydocks.
A similar loan guarantee program was recently launched in Nova
Scotia, but it is limited to $85 million and is obviously
restricted to the Halifax shipyard.
A second measure provides for changes to tax rules relating to
lease financing. Another provision in clause 3 provides:
Essentially, this is aimed at exempting new ships built in a
Canadian shipyard from the application of Revenue Canada
regulations with regard to lease financing. Lease financing has
become the preferred financing option for the purchase of
capital equipment. In their current form, these regulations make
ownership and lease financing not very attractive, even
unprofitable.
The annual depreciation that Revenue Canada would normally allow
as a deduction from taxable income in other circumstances is
substantially reduced in the case of lease financing. Not only
does this transfer the depreciation from the first to the last
years of the useful life of the ship, but it also results in a
decrease of real savings from the ownership and operation of a
ship, which means an increase in the operating costs of Canadian
ships.
1845
By exempting ships built in Canadian shipyards from the
application of regulations relating to lease financing, the
existing depreciation rates for ships would apply without any
restrictions, and the tax disadvantage which prevents ownership
or lease financing of ships would be eliminated. This exemption
would not eliminate any of the taxes applicable to ships and
their owners.
This is not an unprecedented initiative, because many assets are
already exempt from regulations governing lease financing, such
as furniture, office equipment, computers, electric appliances,
televisions, radios, furnaces, air conditioners, railway cars,
cars, vans, trucks and trailers. But not ships.
The third measure concerns refundable tax credits:
(i) to the shipowner for the construction of a Canadian ship, or
(ii) to the shipyard owner for the construction of a foreign
ship.
This tax credit is drawn from a Quebec government initiative
implemented in the context of 1996-97 budget measures to support
Quebec's shipbuilding and marine industry.
The program could apply, without being limited thereto, to
commercial ships, such as passenger ships, bulk containers, self
unloaders and all those I named earlier. It would not apply to
fishing boats eligible for financial assistance under other
federal or provincial ocean fishing development programs.
The costs that could be taken into consideration in calculating
the tax credit would include the cost of plans and
specifications and the salaries of employees involved in the
construction of a ship.
Total construction costs ought to be in keeping with market
standards in relation to the planned ship. A tax credit could
be given that would be the equivalent of a maximum of 20% of
construction costs of the first of a series, 15% of the second
and third, and 10% for the fourth.
This credit might be considered an extension of the R and D credits
in effect in Canada, so as to reflect the unique nature of
shipbuilding, where the very first units in a new construction
or retrofit program involve very steep development costs.
By contributing to these initial expenditures, the reimbursable
credit could facilitate subsequent production, thus generating
the economies of scale so essential to the prosperity of the
industry.
The tax credit would be kept within the economic entity of the
shipyard. It could not be transferred to other divisions of the
business owned by the shipyard owner, and would be paid only
once construction of the ship or oil platform was finished.
I would like to make it clear that it is not just by chance that
the other four initiatives called for by the key stakeholders in
Canadian shipbuilding are not part of my bill.
First of all, “elimination of the unilateral aspects of NAFTA
which, while allowing the United States to sell new or used
ships to Canada free of the 25% duty imposed on all other
countries, totally blocks Canada's access to the American
market” cannot be part of a bill. It must be part of some
bilateral negotiation opened up again with the United States.
It is my personal opinion that the federal government ought
never to have accepted the 1989 exclusion of shipbuilding and
shipping from NAFTA. If these two areas were included from
NAFTA, with the present exchange rate of our Canadian dollar,
our shipyards would be overloaded with work.
The shipyard owners and the shipyard unions are also calling for
“an international social clause governing working conditions for
shipbuilding”. This ought to be included among the concerns of
the Minister of International Trade at the World Trade
Organization negotiations. Hon. members must understand that I
could not include this in my bill, because it involves the WTO
and must be the object of multilateral negotiations first.
1850
The joint publication by shipyard owners and unions also asked
for the “promotion of Canadian resources” and “for investments
in coastal infrastructures”. These views are simply meant to
remind the Liberal government that Canada has the world's
longest coastline and the largest inland waterway.
Under the circumstances, it would be important to preserve the
existing Canadian shipyard infrastructure. Let me digress for a
moment to point out Davie's useful role following the grounding
of the Norwegian cruiser Norwegian Sky. That shipyard may also
be called upon soon to repair the Maltese freighter Alcor, which
is grounded not far from Île d'Orléans.
Finally, shipyard managers and unions asked the federal
government to hold a summit for industry stakeholders, to
further discuss the issues affecting the Canadian shipbuilding
industry and to develop a strategy covering all aspects of
shipbuilding, so as to make that industry prosper again. I fully
support that request for a summit which, incidentally, was a
promise made by the Liberals in 1993.
There are also biases and myths that should be dispelled
regarding the shipbuilding industry. The first myth is the high
cost of manpower. Salaries paid by Canadian shipyards are lower
than those paid anywhere in Europe. The hourly rate for manpower
in the Canadian shipbuilding industry is 20% lower than in the
United States, 50% lower than in Germany, and 40% lower than in
Japan.
Only Korea and communist China pay salaries that are lower than
those in Canada, but our manpower is far more qualified. The
effectiveness of our manpower has increased by 25% since 1986.
Not many countries can boast such an improvement. Collective
agreements are more flexible than ever. This is not necessarily
the way to look for improvement.
It is true that workers in the shipbuilding industry are well
paid, but they also pay a lot of taxes.
With the loss of 7,000 jobs in this sector, the federal and
provincial governments in Canada have lost $70 million annually.
If nothing is done, these losses could soon reach $100 million.
Since each shipbuilding job lost eliminates at least two other
jobs elsewhere, tax losses can be estimated at close to $200
million annually.
How much have these job losses cost the EI and social assistance
programs? I have not been able to obtain official figures, but
I can say that costs were at least $200 million a year.
Another myth is that demand is low. Many of the shipbuilding
industry's detractors claim that the industry is in decline and
that demand has dried up. In fact, the opposite is true. In
the spring of 1999, there were 2,542 ships on order throughout
the world.
The majority of the ships in circulation in the world are over
20 years old. Some of them are in very poor condition. We saw
this recently off the Île d'Orléans. Others must be refurbished
very soon. As ecological concerns increase worldwide, more and
more countries are requiring double hulls.
The recent increase in oil prices will further favour shipping
as a means of transportation and again point up the need for new
oil drilling rigs.
With globalization of markets leading to increased exports,
shipping can only benefit, because trains and trucks cannot
cross oceans, and transportation of weight cargo by air is too
expensive.
We hear that a traditional industry is in decline.
Another concept that must be challenged is the view of
shipbuilding as traditional. All eyes are on the new
technologies.
A recent visit to several American and other shipyards,
including the largest shipyard in Taiwan, which is the fourth
largest in the world, showed me that the largest Canadian
shipyards have nothing to fear from any of them. Our technology
is equal to, if not better than, that of our competitors.
1855
Some of our shipyards, such as Davie, are known worldwide for
the quality of their engineering services; they produce
three-dimensional plans. Computer-aided manufacturing is present
nearly everywhere.
Frigates manufactured in Canada are the best in the world. They
are loaded with more computers than any airplane. So where is
the problem? The problem is financial.
You are indicating to me that I have only two minutes left, Mr.
Speaker, so I will have to go faster and improvise my
conclusion. I could easily speak for two hours, but I have only
20 minutes. The problem is financial, there is a lack of
financial guarantees.
The problem is also that many countries are still subsidizing
shipyards to the tune of 9% in Europe, and 30% in Asia. In the
meantime, the United States are hanging on to their
protectionist measures.
And what is the good Liberal government doing meanwhile? It is
watching the ships go by and is doing nothing. It is counting on
the nature of things, on external pressures to make things
happen in the area of shipbuilding. However, it is not with such
a laissez-faire attitude that the situation will improve. While
it has been ignoring the problem, the number of jobs has dropped
from 12,000 when it came to power to 7,000, and it is still
dropping.
In St. John's, Lévis, Vancouver, everywhere, the situation is
increasingly precarious.
I urge the Liberal government, which, I know, will not dare
support a bill introduced by a mere opposition member, to vote
the way its party faithful asked it to do at the last national
convention through a resolution asking for substantial action: a
review of the situation and concrete measures. I urge the
government to wake up.
[English]
Mr. John Cannis (Scarborough Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I am pleased to be able to address private member's Bill C-213,
an act to promote shipbuilding, brought forward by the hon.
member for Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, and to hopefully shed
some light on some of the innuendoes and the doom and gloom we
have been hearing.
The desire to see shipbuilding in Canada contribute to the
national well-being is one that the government wholeheartedly
shares. This is why the government has designed a federal
shipbuilding policy tailored to the industry as it exists in
Canada today and is consistent with our approach to other
industry sectors.
There is no doubt in my mind why the member has put forth his
bill. He is hoping to assist an industry located in his riding.
I refer to MIL Davie. As all members of the House, the hon.
member has come to this place to defend the interest of his
constituents and I commend him for that. As elected
representatives we all share this sense of obligation and must
meet it with vigour by telling the full story.
Accordingly, the member may wish to ask his constituents if they
are aware of the federal government's contribution to MIL Davie.
I suspect the member's party line dictates that he cannot discuss
positive contributions offered by the Canadian government. This
would be a truth that his party would rather leave to others to
raise.
Let me do so with pride. Has the member informed his
constituents that the Government of Canada already invested
almost $1.6 billion in Davie industries between 1983 and 1996 in
the form of contracts, contributions and loan guarantees?
Probably not. Has the member asked his constituents if they
prefer more money thrown at the problem as he is proposing in his
bill? Probably not.
I would even venture to say that the hon. member's own
constituents would take a common sense approach and affirm that
his bill is not the magic bullet for this specific industry.
Rather, his constituents would likely prefer a tax cut or
increased spending on various social programs. In the wonderful
world of the Bloc Quebecois everything is possible. After all,
it chooses not to govern, only to oppose.
Let me now take a moment to reiterate the Government of Canada's
policy. My colleague, after asking the industry committee to
meet on the subject of productivity and shipbuilding, essentially
ignored the evidence presented by the witnesses and concluded
that there is no government support for the shipbuilding and
repair industry.
1900
I take it that this must have been nothing more than a partisan
slip from my colleague who I am sure will eventually admit to his
constituents that there is a federal shipbuilding policy made in
Canada.
There are essentially four elements to our government's
shipbuilding policy carried out by the various government
departments.
First, thanks to Public Works and Government Services Canada,
the acquisition of ships in Canada by the federal government is
done on a competitive basis but is restricted to Canadian
sources. Let me point out that at present shipyards in Atlantic
Canada employ almost 2,000 Canadians and, thanks to the federal
government's made in Canada shipbuilding policy, these workers
are now benefiting from over $8 billion to $9 billion in federal
shipbuilding and repair national contracts tendered through the
competitive bidding process in the past 10 years.
Second, the finance policy allows for an accelerated capital
cost allowance on new ships built in Canada. It also allows
purchasers to write off 100% of the entire cost of a ship over a
mere four years. If we bear in mind the fact that the average
life of a ship is approximately 40 years, this is a very
accelerated rate of depreciation. It gives rise to a deferred
tax item on the balance sheets of companies that exceeds the 15%
declining balance rate afforded to foreign built vessels.
Third, thanks to DFAIT, we have put in place a 25% tariff on all
non-NAFTA foreign built ships of more than 100 tonnes that enter
Canadian waters, with the exception of course of fishing vessels
over 100 feet in length.
Fourth, in response to the shipbuilding and repair industry's
conditions, the government has spent $198 million on an
industry-led rationalization process between 1986 and 1993. This
money was given directly to the industry for upgrading facilities
and displaced workers adjustment programs because the industry
itself, I point out, decided it was necessary to reduce its
capacity so that the remaining shipyards could survive and
continue to be competitive.
The Government of Canada is also supporting the shipbuilding and
repair sector through a number of other key initiatives as well.
For example, we have an attractive R and D environment driven in
part by the scientific research and experimental development tax
credit.
We have financial assistance through risk sharing repayable
funds through the enabling technologies element found in
Technology Partnerships Canada. This could likely be of help in
fostering the development, application and diffusion of critical
technologies with major impacts and benefits within and across
industry sectors.
The federal government helps the shipbuilding and repair
industry to compete internationally through the Canadian
Commercial Corporation assistance and the Export Development
Corporation export financing, which can support up to 80% of a
purchase over a 12-year term at commercial market, and let me
highlight its support, which has grown from $3.5 million in 1996
to more than $130 million in 1999. This is a perfect example of
how the government is modernizing its policy to reflect changing
needs. Financing terms were expanded from eight to twelve years,
and interest rates now match commercial rates.
Peter Cairns, president of the Shipbuilding Association of
Canada, called this “a very good initiative, beneficial to the
whole industry nationwide”. He called it a “significant step
in the right direction in an area where Canada has a lot of
expertise”.
Now the hon. member opposite would ask the government to pile on
top of these measures special treatment for the shipbuilding and
repair industry in the form of more favourable loan guarantees
and exemption from lease financing, measures that do not exist
for any other industry in Canada and that are contrary to
Canadian tax policy and our international trade obligations.
Furthermore, the kind of tax credits the hon. member is asking
for amount to what is in essence a subsidy. Canada will not get
into a subsidy war with its international competitors which, let
me point out, it cannot possibly win.
1905
Permit me to take a step back and provide the member with a
worldwide view of this entire issue.
At present, when measured internationally, shipbuilding in
Canada amounts to about four-tenths of one percent of global
production. This market is dominated by Japan and Korea which
account for about 35% to 33%, respectively, of the world
commercial shipbuilding. When we add China to the mix, three top
countries now control more than 75% of the world's production.
Moreover, the Asian and Europeans are not standing still waiting
for the rest of the world to catch up. Consolidation, mergers
and specialization continue with giants like HHI and Daewoo in
Korea, and a Chinese industry that is rationalizing from 26
companies down to two. In the face of such extreme and
unremitting pressure, brought about by predatory pricing,
substantial global overcapacity and subsidies, many traditional
firms, such as Norway's Kvaener, have elected to get out of the
business of new construction altogether.
In the face of such evidence, one may be inclined to walk away
from the table and ignore the difficulties being encountered by
the men and women of the shipbuilding and repair industry.
However, that would be too easy and, simply put, not the right
thing to do. The Bloc, the NDP and the Tories may disagree that
the answer does not lie in topping up the subsidies that other
countries are providing or in simply throwing in the towel, as
the Reformers would like us to do.
The government will do the right thing and continue our efforts
in multilateral discussions to negotiate subsidies down. As the
Minister for International Trade has stated, we are committed to
doing so and we are putting shipbuilding subsidies on the
priority list of the upcoming negotiations in Seattle,
Washington.
Yes, we should be doing all we can, in an intelligent way, to
foster shipbuilding and repair in Canada. But, surely, this is a
shared responsibility not to be undertaken solely by the federal
government. The provinces as well as the owners have a duty to
respond to their workers. Most of the provinces with
shipbuilding and repair interests have provided support.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise today to respond to Bill C-213, an act to promote
shipbuilding in Canada. The purpose of the bill is to make
Canadian shipyards more competitive.
The member for Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière in Quebec wants
to establish a federal loan granting program that will cover up
to 87.5% of money borrowed to purchase a commercial ship built in
Canadian shipyards.
The bill would also provide a favourable and generous tax
treatment of lease financing for the purchase of Canadian built
ships.
Finally, the bill proposes a refundable tax credit for refitting
commercial ships in Canada.
As a Canadian, I can commend the hon. member for the intent of
the bill and what he is trying to accomplish.
Surrounded on three sides by water, one would think that Canada
could have a viable, thriving and prosperous shipbuilding
industry. However, that is not the case. There are so many who
remember the great ships built on our east coast in particular,
and the shipbuilding industry in Canada takes on a romantic
notion.
The Tories make a great deal of noise lamenting the sad state of
our shipbuilding industry. In fact, they are to blame as much as
the Liberal Party of Canada for the loss of this industry in
Canada.
As all Canadians know, the current Liberal government is
maintaining a high and artificial level of taxation. They are
hurting our economy, our productivity and our growth with their
high taxes. They are hurting our consumers, and they are
discouraging foreign investors from coming to Canada. They have
caused a brain drain that threatens the future of our country.
Just this past weekend, the International Monetary Fund
recommended that the Liberals abandon their policy of delegating
50% of the budgetary surplus to new spending because something
has to be done about the high level of taxes that are killing
jobs, our economy and our industry in the country.
Our employment levels are too low. With our vast resources and
our ability to create wealth with other nations in the global
economy, we should be doing a lot better.
1910
On this side of the House, we appreciate the initiative shown by
the member in bringing forward Bill C-213. He is trying to find
solutions to the government's mismanagement and its effect on our
shipbuilding industry. Regrettably, he is using the wrong
approach.
Loans, grants and incentives will not accomplish what low taxes
across the board would accomplish. Would the member go sector by
sector, industry by industry, company by company offering tax
breaks, granting loans and other things? That is what the
Liberals do. They give away government contracts and
opportunities to those who contribute to the Liberal Party. A
hotel can be saved from bankruptcy if enough money has been
given, and CIDA contracts will be awarded. We know this is a
long story.
Lower taxes would help all sectors of our economy. If the
government lowered taxes, that would help our industries. Lower
taxes would help all companies across the country. High taxes
caused the problems. Lower taxes would solve much of the damage
that has been done.
The official opposition policy calls for private sector
self-reliance without the federal government providing tax
dollars to support any specific sector. Why would the hon. member
single out shipbuilding? There are so many other sectors to be
propped up with tax dollars.
Let us look at the shipbuilding industry in Canada. With only .04%,
that is 1/25th of a percentage point, of the world's
shipbuilding production, it is time to admit that Canada does not
currently have the right environment to sustain a shipbuilding
industry. Rather than try to match the subsidies and other
incentives offered by other countries, we should concentrate our
efforts on negotiating down unfair export subsidies. Far from
guaranteeing loans to Canadians who purchase Canadian built
ships, we should drop the 25% tariff we have on non-NAFTA ship
imports so that all Canadian shipowners are not penalized.
Industry Canada can tell us about the problems in the
shipbuilding industry. It is a declining industry, a dead in the
water industry. There is an overcapacity in the world of over
40%. Canada is not even in the ballpark. We have 25% duties
against imports of ships.
What the Liberals and Tories have done to the shipbuilding
industry in Canada is a study on what not to do in terms of
productivity. Yet the industry department continues to have a
shipbuilding policy which has technology partnership grants,
research and development grants, and the Export Development
Corporation supporting it. Why?
The technology partnerships Canada program is available to a
number of firms to do research and development if they so wish.
It is repayable based on success. It is a risk sharing, reward
sharing program. No one should use this program for
shipbuilding. There would be no way to pay back the loan.
Let us look at the world shipbuilding industry. The industry has
moved away from North American markets and European markets to
southeast Asian markets. Japan and South Korea continue to
control over two-thirds of the total international market for
shipbuilding and ship repair. China is emerging as a rival.
Combined, these three countries control over 75% of the world
market. Due to extreme pressure from Asian shipbuilders, many
traditional shipbuilders, including the Norwegian company
Kvaerner, have chosen to get out of the industry altogether.
Canada cannot build major ships, only minor and smaller vessels.
Both of these markets are already operating at over 40% of their
capacity. Demand and prices are already weak and are forecast to
continue to decline. Prices for 1999 are down by 6% to 24% from
last year.
1915
The international market is experiencing a significant
downsizing. Since 1976 the number of shipyards in the world has
dropped by half and direct employment has significantly declined
to about one-third of what it was.
Let us do those things that we can do well. We can reduce
duties in a multilateral forae, and we will be going into the WTO
round in Seattle. If we will be dealing with duties, then I hope
we will deal with this one.
All tariffs will probably be on the table for discussion and I
would expect, depending on what we can get in return, that we may
be able to drop the 25% duty.
Market conditions for shipbuilders are not about to change.
Maybe we would be better off in Canada helping our ship buyers by
reducing the 25% duty. Maybe the ship purchasers in Canada could
help generate employment, creating jobs and developing the
business. Protecting shipbuilders did not help in the past.
The total employment in Canada's shipbuilding and ship repair
industry as of May 1999 was about 4,950. The rationalization of
this sector of our economy took place between 1986 and 1994 and
resulted in a loss of over 7,000 jobs. The loss of those jobs
cost the federal government $198 million. That is a lot of
money.
The federal government has already assisted in helping the
industry phase down through $200 million in adjustment payments.
That experiment, as usual, has proven to be a dismal failure.
We should not turn to taxpayers and make them pay for a
shipbuilding industry in Canada that will never be viable. Let
us not hinder the choices of the firms in Canada that want to buy
ships or force a duty on them if they do not buy a Canadian ship
because we wish to have a shipbuilding industry. It is the
government's fault that this industry and others are not thriving
in Canada. In fact, it is hindering us with high taxes,
preventing prosperity. We support de-politicizing economic
decision making by eliminating grants, guarantees and subsidies.
Ms. Wendy Lill (Dartmouth, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am very
pleased to speak today to Bill C-213, a bill which I support
because of my party's longstanding support for the creation of a
national shipbuilding policy for Canada.
I thank members of the Marine Workers Federation who came here
en masse last spring, from coast to coast to coast, to present
100,000 cards demanding that the government implement a national
shipbuilding policy. I am glad to see many of them here tonight
for this important debate.
Why do we need a shipbuilding policy? It seems so obvious to
many of us, but it cannot be reiterated enough.
I come to this place from Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, a community
which sits on the shores of one of the finest working harbours in
the world. Shipping is part of the economic lifeblood of my
community. It is part of our history, culture and who we are.
From my home I can see crews working on ships on the shores of
Dartmouth Cove. They are blasting the hulls or repairing and
refitting the superstructures. Across the harbour I can see the
naval dry docks where our navy is being fit with the latest
technology, and as I cross the bridges I see the huge Halifax
shipyards, major employers in my community.
These are jobs in a vibrant and necessary industry. I see this
from my home, I hear it from constituents, and I know it from the
things I am told by the workers in the industry. However, I am
troubled by the fact that the government has a different view of
the industry. It sees the industry as one which is on the way
out, a sunset industry. That is why it is letting the industry
die. It sees this industry and the workers involved, and the
communities which rely on shipbuilding, as being expendable.
That approach is reflected in the government's indifference to a
shipbuilding policy. It is astounding to me that the
indifference exists, given the fact that such voices as Buzz
Hargrove, J.D. Irving and the Canadian Chamber of Commerce are
now all singing from the same song book about the need for a
shipbuilding policy. But indifference is what we have seen from
the government, or at best mixed messages.
1920
The Liberal Party has a long but not very proud tradition of
saying one thing in opposition and doing another when in
government. The Prime Minister was firmly in favour of a
national shipbuilding policy when in opposition. At that time it
was the Conservatives in government who were dragging their
heels.
During the election of 1997 the Liberals trotted out kind words
about shipbuilding, but when my colleague for Halifax West raised
issues surrounding shipbuilding with the Minister of Industry
after the election, his position was against the shipbuilding
policy. He admitted that his biggest worry was spending any
money to support the industry. Why? Because this could see
Canada participating in a subsidy war. Once again we saw our
government abandoning our industry to avoid potential trade
irritants with our powerful neighbours.
We clearly heard that the government's policy was to allow our
shipbuilders to disappear, while other countries like the United
States were prepared to protect theirs. The difference seems to
be that other countries understand the importance of having a
cutting edge shipbuilding industry. Contrary to our government's
view that shipbuilding is a sunset industry, other countries
understand that shipbuilding is using the most up to date
technologies in the world.
Other jurisdictions are not content to rely on the third world
for their transport needs as a matter of policy either.
Unfortunately, that is the case in Canada. Halifax harbour
rarely sees a Canadian built ship with a Canadian crew. We
instead see ships like the Maersk Dubai. These are common
vessels in our waters, ships with no labour standards and
questionable safety and environmental practices. It is shameful
that this is the policy of Canada.
Very recently we have seen new developments in the Liberal
government's waffling on its shipbuilding policy. We have heard
the government leader in the Senate, a newcomer in cabinet but a
Liberal hack of the oldest order, say that he wants a
shipbuilding policy that not only supports the current shipyards,
but which can compete for foreign and domestic business. However,
across the cabinet table the Minister of Transport is delivering
yet another slap to the face of Canadian shipbuilders. He has
chosen to abandon any pretence of having a Canadian first
procurement policy. An example is that the Minister of Transport
has gone offshore to buy the much needed ferry for Newfoundland
to Labrador, while the St. John's shipyard is currently idle.
Why is that?
It seems to me that the solution to the problem is obvious.
Build the ships here. Create the jobs here. Keep the skills
here. Support the communities here. Develop the economy here.
Instead, we see the Minister of Transport going offshore to get
the ferry. How can we trust anything the government is saying
when it behaves like this?
I support this bill, not because it is perfect, but because it
moves in the right direction. It recognizes that we need public
investment, using all public policy tools, such as government
loan guarantees and tax credits to support a national
shipbuilding policy. That is why I support the bill.
However, as a country we need to go further than this bill. We
need to look at shipbuilding as part of a larger shipping policy.
Our policy toward shipbuilding should not just create employment,
it should set some terms on that employment. We have to
establish some environmental terms for that employment.
Shipbuilding and refitting can be a dirty job. It involves a lot
of heavy industrial activity. Many of my constituents have
expressed concerns about the environmental problems related to
activities such as blasting hulls and the use of chemical
solvents in refitting ships.
For the sake of our workers and the sake of residents who live
near shipyards, we need to have more comprehensive environmental
controls and protections for these worksites. They should be
regulated and the regulations should be enforced. We need to
have fair labour standards in the shipbuilding sector which
encourage the democratization of the workplace and better
treatment for labour organizations. We need basic social rights
to be protected by shipbuilders.
We should be looking beyond this bill to having a national
policy that requires international shipbuilders to live with
acceptable social, environmental and labour standards if they
want to use their products in Canada.
We also need to change our overall shipping policies to allow
the enforcement of health, safety and environmental standards on
all ships which ply Canadian waters.
1925
We need to use a national shipbuilding policy to encourage other
industries to add value to our raw resources and not just ship
out the raw goods. I believe we must re-approach our dealings
with out trading partners and reject subservient relations with
other countries, such as we get from NAFTA and the WTO.
While I support the bill, I will remind the House that the root
of our problems in many sectors, such as shipbuilding, comes from
our decreased ability to use subsidies and tax incentives to
promote domestic economic development. These restrictions are a
result of trade agreements put in place by both Tory and Liberal
governments which restrict our ability to have a national policy
in areas like shipbuilding.
We need a national shipbuilding policy: Dartmouth and Halifax,
Nova Scotia; Marystown, Newfoundland; Saint John, New Brunswick;
and Lévis, Quebec need it. Canada needs the thousands of
family-supporting jobs that a vital shipbuilding industry will
create. I hope the government will finally commit to action on a
national shipbuilding policy for the sake of all of those
communities.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, I thank
my hon. colleague from Lévis for his bill. I am so pleased to be
able to get up and support his bill and his comments.
I heard some comments about how the Conservative Party, when it
was in power, did not do things for the shipbuilding industry.
Let me tell the members that the Conservative Party gave the
single largest contract in the history of Canada to Quebec and,
yes, indeed, to Saint John, New Brunswick, my shipyard. It
injected billions and billions of dollars into the economy.
I sit in the House of Commons week after week. I got up in the
last session 27 times to ask the Minister of Industry to bring in
a national shipbuilding policy to make us equals and competitive.
All we ever heard was “We have a national shipbuilding policy
right now”. Well, we cannot compete with the national
shipbuilding policy that the the Minister of Industry says we
have. He should take a look around the world.
I am in favour of the International Monetary Fund helping those
countries that are poor and having a difficult time. However,
right now money from the International Monetary Fund is going
into Korea and Japan to help subsidize shipbuilding. Here we are
and we cannot subsidize our shipyards. “No, no, we cannot do
that”, says the Minister of Industry.
Back on October 29, 1990, Mr. Holloway, the secretary treasurer
of the Marine Workers' Federation, wrote to the now Prime
Minister of Canada, when he was seated on the other side in the
opposition, asking about the state of shipbuilding in Canada.
The the present Prime Minister replied by saying that while the
Conservative government may indeed have recognized that there was
a problem, because things were winding down in the shipbuilding
industry, that it had done absolutely nothing to foster the
development of a Canadian merchant marine. He said that it was
safe to say that most people recognized that something needed to
be done to create a much more competitive shipbuilding industry,
and that the government should have, as it should have done long
ago and as it had promised to do, taken steps to alleviate this
problem.
That was what the Prime Minister said when he was in opposition.
Well, he is in government now and he says that there is no
problem whatsoever to bring it in. The government has the power
to bring it in, but where is it? It has not done anything. The
silence from Ottawa is deafening as other jurisdictions continue
to announce further support for shipbuilding in their countries.
Why are we not seeing the same level of competence and
responsiveness from our government?
The Minister of Industry talks about high technology.
Shipbuilding is high technology, very high technology. We used
to have thousands and thousands of people working in the
shipbuilding industry. For every job that was created in the
shipbuilding industry, there were two or three other jobs in the
community that were created as well.
When I am talking about shipbuilding I am talking about a
national policy that goes right from Newfoundland to British
Columbia. It is not just two shipyards.
1930
Let us look at what happened recently. The United States came
in and wanted to buy MIL Davie because it wanted to take over.
There is no question United States has invested. We know that
and we are worried about it because the United States has the
Jones Act and the Jones Act protects the United States.
The United States can do all kinds of things, but we cannot go
into the United States and bid on its tenders. We cannot go in
and do what Americans can do in Canada. They can come here and
bid on our shipyards. They can bid on our contracts. They can
do everything because they have protection. We cannot because we
do not have that protection in Canada.
Why are we not seeing the same level of confidence and
responsiveness from our own government? We want to know why we
are not. Highlights of the shipbuilding industry supported by
other jurisdictions in the last two to three weeks include the
week of November 10 when the United Kingdom announced new support
for ship repair whereby two and a quarter of the value of the
repair is given as a subsidy.
Norway has increased its subsidy from 7% to 9%. Norway has also
stated its intention to provide a special new subsidy to support
the building of fishing vessels. Germany has reintroduced
subsidies to the level of 9%. Of the 68 shipbuilding nations on
the planet today, 67 of them have national shipbuilding policies.
An hon. member: Except us.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Yes, except us. The old OECD agreement
was entered into by this country. All countries that built ships
entered into it many years ago. The only country adhering to it
is which one? Canada. We are the only country adhering to it.
That is why we cannot compete. None of the others are adhering
to it.
Yes, we hear that the Liberals will be going to the WTO meetings
down in Seattle and that this will be a priority. We have heard
all that rhetoric before. They do not have to go to the WTO.
They can come in here this week and bring in a national
shipbuilding policy. There is absolutely no reason in the world
for our men and our women who built frigates, which are the best
ships to be found anywhere in the world, to have to wait until
they go to the WTO.
European countries are so concerned right now with what has been
happening with the dollars from the IMF supporting Asian
shipyards that they have initiated a court action against the
Daewoo shipyard. This Korean shipyard is over $350 million in
the red, continues to take orders and build ships below cost and,
we have been told, allegedly uses some IMF money which includes
Canadian tax dollars.
We need a shipbuilding policy with provisions for an improved
export financing and loan guarantee program similar to the title
11 program in the United States. Yes, it took over our sugar
refinery. It is taking over our shipbuilding. It is taking over
everything, and we are sitting back and letting it happen here in
Canada.
There should be an exclusion of the newly constructed ships
built in Canadian shipyards from the present Revenue Canada
leasing regulations, provisions for a refundable tax credit to
Canadian shipowners or shipbuilders that contract to build a ship
or contract for conversions with change of mission, mid-life
refit or major refit in Canadian shipyards.
We have to say that there should be an elimination of the one
sided aspect of NAFTA which allows the U.S. to sell new or used
ships duty free in Canada yet absolutely prohibits Canadian
access to the U.S. market.
Our newly appointed industry minister in 1993 was given a gloomy
report from Ernst & Young on the future of shipbuilding in
Canada. The report entitled “International Competitiveness of
the Canadian Shipbuilding Industry” was commissioned by the
previous Tory government and concluded that the industry was in
very serious trouble. That was 1993, and this minister and this
Liberal government have done nothing to make Canadian
shipbuilding competitive with the international shipbuilding
sector in countries that subsidize their shipbuilding.
That 119 page report stated that if the government did nothing
to help the industry become more competitive, an estimated 15,000
jobs would be lost by the turn of the century. We only have a
month to go.
I beg my colleagues over there to take a serious look at what is
happening. There are about 25,000 people, some of whom are on
welfare and some of whom had to go to the United States to find
work.
1935
People have come up from Louisiana to Saint John, New Brunswick,
to interview our shipyard workers and said they were the best
trained people they have ever interviewed. They offered them
jobs down in the United States. We have the most modern
shipyards in Quebec, back home in Saint John, New Brunswick, in
Newfoundland and right through to Vancouver, and what happens? We
have a government that does not care.
I plead tonight like never before for the government to put our
people back to work. Let them have their dignity. Let them feed
their families. They do not want to be on welfare. They do not
want to be on unemployment. We can do that by working together
and getting a national shipbuilding policy which makes us
competitive.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The time provided for the
consideration of Private Members' Business has now expired and
the order is dropped to the bottom of the order of precedence on
the order paper.
[English]
It being 7.36 p.m. the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at
2 p.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 7.36 p.m.)