36th Parliament, 2nd Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 40
CONTENTS
Wednesday, December 15, 1999
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| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| CHILDREN
|
| Ms. Jean Augustine |
| TAXATION
|
| Mr. John Cummins |
| ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Jacques Saada |
| THE LATE CLAUDE HARDY
|
| Mr. Claude Drouin |
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| LITERACY
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| THE LATE VICTOR QUELCH
|
| Mr. David Chatters |
| CANADA
|
| Mr. Hec Clouthier |
| YOUNG OFFENDERS
|
| Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
| SANDRINE'S GIFT OF LIFE
|
| Mr. Ian Murray |
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| SANDRINE'S GIFT OF LIFE
|
| Mr. Grant Hill |
| CHARMAINE CROOKS
|
| Ms. Judy Sgro |
| HALIFAX PORT AUTHORITY
|
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
| MINISTER OF INTERGOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Gérard Asselin |
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| THE LATE JIM BALFOUR
|
| Mr. Rick Borotsik |
| CHRISTMAS GREETINGS
|
| Mr. Paul Bonwick |
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
| GOVERNMENT GRANTS
|
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Hon. John Manley |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
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| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Chuck Strahl |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Chuck Strahl |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| BILL C-20
|
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
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| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
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| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| HEALTH CARE
|
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
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| DRUG APPROVAL
|
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| FOREIGN INVESTMENT
|
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
| BILL C-20
|
| Mr. Réal Ménard |
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| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| Mr. Réal Ménard |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| FOREIGN INVESTMENT
|
| Mr. Eric Lowther |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Eric Lowther |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| BILL C-20
|
| Mrs. Monique Guay |
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| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| Mrs. Monique Guay |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| CORRECTIONAL SERVICES CANADA
|
| Mr. Myron Thompson |
| Hon. Lawrence MacAulay |
| Mr. Myron Thompson |
| Hon. Lawrence MacAulay |
| BILL C-20
|
| Mr. Pierre de Savoye |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
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| STEEL INDUSTRY
|
| Mr. Carmen Provenzano |
| Hon. Martin Cauchon |
| CORRECTIONAL SERVICES CANADA
|
| Mr. Jim Abbott |
| Hon. Lawrence MacAulay |
| Mr. Jim Abbott |
| Hon. Lawrence MacAulay |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. Dick Proctor |
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
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| Mr. Dick Proctor |
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
| HALIFAX INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT
|
| Mr. Bill Casey |
| Hon. David M. Collenette |
| Mr. Bill Casey |
| Hon. David M. Collenette |
| ARTS AND CULTURE
|
| Mr. Gurbax Singh Malhi |
| Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
| HEALTH
|
| Mr. Reed Elley |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
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| FRANCOPHONES OUTSIDE QUEBEC
|
| Mr. Claude Bachand |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
| POINTS OF ORDER
|
| Tabling of documents
|
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
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| Mr. René Laurin |
| Mr. Benoît Serré |
| Mr. Benoît Sauvageau |
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| Mr. Gérard Asselin |
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
| Mrs. Maud Debien |
| Mr. Pierre Brien |
| Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
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| Mr. Louis Plamondon |
| Mr. Claude Bachand |
| Mr. Eugène Bellemare |
| Mr. Antoine Dubé |
| Mr. Yvan Bernier |
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
| Mr. Bernard Bigras |
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| Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
| Mr. Richard Marceau |
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
| Mr. John Williams |
| Mr. Paul Crête |
| Mr. André Harvey |
| Mr. Pierre de Savoye |
| Mr. Jay Hill |
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| Mr. Yves Rocheleau |
| Mr. Serge Cardin |
| Mr. Maurice Godin |
| Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral |
| Mr. Paul Mercier |
| Mr. Odina Desrochers |
| Mr. Stéphan Tremblay |
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| Mr. Gilles-A. Perron |
| Mr. Ghislain Lebel |
| Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand |
| Mr. Maurice Dumas |
| Mr. Ghislain Fournier |
| Mrs. Pierrette Venne |
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
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| Mr. Réal Ménard |
| Mrs. Francine Lalonde |
| Mr. Yvan Loubier |
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
| DEFENCE EXPORTS
|
| Mr. Denis Paradis |
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| GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| INTERPARLIAMENTARY DELEGATIONS
|
| Mr. Bernard Patry |
| INTERPARLIAMENTARY DELEGATIONS
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Official Languages
|
| Mr. Benoît Serré |
| Fisheries and Oceans
|
| Mr. Wayne Easter |
| Human Resources Development and the Status of Persons with
|
| Mr. John Godfrey |
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| Public Accounts
|
| Mr. John Williams |
| Human Resources Development and Status of Persons with
|
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
| PROCEEDS OF CRIME (MONEY LAUNDERING) ACT
|
| Bill C-22. Introduction and first reading
|
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
| NUCLEAR AMENDMENT ACT, 1998
|
| Bill C-403. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. David Chatters |
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT
|
| Bill C-404. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Paul Crête |
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| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT
|
| Bill C-405. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Paul Crête |
| CRIMINAL CODE
|
| Bill C-406. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Paul Forseth |
| CRIMINAL CODE
|
| Bill C-407. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Paul Forseth |
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| CRIMINAL CODE
|
| Bill C-408. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Paul Forseth |
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Official Languages
|
| Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
| Finance
|
| Mr. Yvan Loubier |
| Motion for concurrence
|
1600
1605
1610
1615
| Mr. Paul Mercier |
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| Mr. Paul Crête |
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| Mr. André Harvey |
1630
| Mr. Roy Cullen |
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1640
1645
| Mr. Paul Crête |
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| Mrs. Michelle Dockrill |
| Mr. Jean Dubé |
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| Mr. Monte Solberg |
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1705
1710
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| Amendment
|
| Mr. Maurizio Bevilacqua |
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| Mr. Paul Crête |
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| Mr. Richard M. Harris |
| Mr. Ovid L. Jackson |
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| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
| Motion
|
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1740
1745
1750
| Mr. Charles Hubbard |
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| Amendment
|
1800
| Mr. Maurice Vellacott |
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1810
| Mr. Paul Crête |
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| Subamendment
|
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| Ms. Angela Vautour |
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1830
| ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
|
| Trade
|
| Mr. Rick Casson |
| Mr. Bob Speller |
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| National Defence
|
| Mr. Jim Hart |
1840
| Mr. Jacques Saada |
| CSIS
|
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
1845
| Mr. Jacques Saada |
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 40
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Wednesday, December 15, 1999
The House met at 2 p.m.
Prayers
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The Speaker: As is our practice on Wednesday we will now
sing O Canada. The hon. member for Kingston and the Islands and
a choir from Kingston and the Islands will lead us in the singing
of our national anthem. This is only the fourth group that has
ever led us in O Canada in our House.
[Editor's Note: Members sang the national anthem]
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
CHILDREN
Ms. Jean Augustine (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Christmas season is a time of joy and happiness for
many Canadian children, yet for one unknown young child this will
not be the case. Last Tuesday the people of Etobicoke—Lakeshore
were shocked to learn that the body of an unidentified child was
found dismembered in Colonel Samuel Smith Park, a local park.
The death of this child is an example of the kind of violence
that, when perpetrated, affects us all. Our communities will not
be whole or functional until we can identify this child and find
the perpetrators. The lives of our children are too precious not
to warrant our protection.
As we mourn the tragic death of this child let us take the time
to reflect and take action on the things that threaten children's
lives. We must work to ensure that children are safe in
Etobicoke—Lakeshore and in all communities across our great
country.
* * *
TAXATION
Mr. John Cummins (Delta—South Richmond, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, Santa Claus announced today that he will be moving his
entire Canadian operation to the South Pole early next year. The
reason? The excessively high taxes imposed by this Liberal
government.
An obviously distraught Claus told a packed news conference that
all aspects of his operation are overtaxed and that he is simply
not prepared to pay any more. “It is becoming increasingly
impossible to get the elves to work overtime”, said Claus.
“Liberal payroll taxes rip their paycheques in half”.
“The excessive burden of provincial taxes, federal excise taxes
and the GST are driving the price of reindeer fuel out of
sight”, said R. N. Reindeer, chief of Claus' transportation
division. “Our accountants say the best way to escape the
Liberals' juggernaut is to move to the South Pole and to operate
Santa's sleigh under a Liberian flag of convenience”.
“Our agenda has always been a children's agenda”, said a
tearful Mrs. Claus. “Once Liberal taxes have shut us down, who
are the kids going to write to at Christmastime, Revenue
Canada?”
* * *
[Translation]
ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Jacques Saada (Brossard—La Prairie, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have some good news, very good news, for the Gaspé region.
On December 13, the Minister of National Revenue and Secretary
of State responsible for the Economic Development Agency of
Canada for the Regions of Quebec announced that the Conseil de
développement économique de Murdochville will be receiving a
contribution of $377,000 for four prefeasibility studies aimed
at determining the most promising areas for investment.
This is one of a series of measures undertaken by the Government
of Canada in the past 24 months within the region. Some $28
million have been injected into programs specifically designed
for the Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine region.
I should point out as well that an envelope of $20 million is
still available for productive projects.
This is just one more fine example of the Government of Canada's
concrete support to the process of restructuring the economy of
the Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine region.
* * *
THE LATE CLAUDE HARDY
Mr. Claude Drouin (Beauce, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, a great friend of
amateur sport in Canada passed away on December 3 at the age of 59.
Claude Hardy was an athlete, a coach, an administrator and a TV
commentator. He made his mark as a weightlifter in Quebec and
in Canada, and on the world scene as well, participating in the
1968 and 1972 Olympic Games. Today we pay tribute in
particular to his devotion to young athletes.
1405
He was involved in several editions of the Canada Games as an
athlete, a coach and leader of the Quebec delegation.
At each future edition of the Canada Games, the Claude Hardy
award will be given in his memory to a delegation member
demonstrating the same qualities as this great man, who left us
far too soon.
* * *
[English]
LITERACY
Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we
live in the most connected country in the world on the threshold
of the 21st century. Yet, 22% of Canadians have difficulty
reading commonly available material and another 26% have limited
reading skills.
Whether we realize it or not, each of us knows at least one
adult who cannot read. This is not a matter of immigrants having
problems with their second or third language; this is a problem
that affects all corners of Canadian society.
While we must keep up with the high tech aspects of the global
village in which we live, we must also support focusing energy
and resources to improve literacy levels across the country.
I urge all members to support the National Literacy Secretariat.
The secretariat and its partners deserve our support.
* * *
THE LATE VICTOR QUELCH
Mr. David Chatters (Athabasca, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I rise
in the House today to make amends to an oversight from many years
gone by.
Mr. Victor Quelch was a member of parliament from 1935 to 1958.
In those 23 years he served as Social Credit member for the
constituency of Acadia in southern Alberta. He was a very well
regarded member of this House and served many roles, including
chief critic for finance, agriculture and fisheries. In 1950 he
was appointed by Prime Minister St. Laurent to serve as an
adviser on the Canadian staff to the United Nations Assembly.
Before entering politics Mr. Quelch served in World War I and
received the Military Cross for bravery.
A sense of duty to his country and its citizens guided Mr.
Quelch's entire life, yet when he passed away in 1975 a tribute
was never held in his honour in this House.
Although it is long overdue, I would like to acknowledge the
service and dedication of Mr. Quelch. His contributions to
Canada may be long past but they are certainly not forgotten.
* * *
CANADA
Mr. Hec Clouthier (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, it was my privilege to represent Canada at the 55th
anniversary of D-Day in Normandy this June. It was chosen as the
number one Canadian news event of the century. I am proud to
share my birthday with Pierre Elliott Trudeau. He was chosen as
the number one Canadian newsmaker of the century.
These people moved Canada and the world. Few of us will have
the greatness to bend history itself, but each and every one of
us must work hard to change a small portion of events. In the
totality of all those acts will be written the history of this
generation. Each time a person stands for an ideal and acts to
improve the lot of others or strikes out against an injustice, he
or she sends forth a tiny ripple of hope.
It is my fervent hope, as MP for the great riding of
Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, that we pass the torch to the next
generation, knowing in our hearts and in our minds that we have
not failed our families, our friends or our country.
The success story called Canada will continue to illuminate the
universe into the next millennium.
* * *
[Translation]
YOUNG OFFENDERS
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Coalition pour la justice des mineurs, which is a coalition of
Quebec agencies working with young offenders, recently submitted
its brief to members of this House. Here is an excerpt from that
document:
The constant decrease in youth crime and the positive results
achieved by the provinces that implement all the components of
the Young Offenders Act should convince Canadians, provided they
are adequately informed, that the implementation of Bill C-3
would be a costly and useless measure.
Where are the supposed protectors of Quebec's interests in the
Liberal caucus? Unfortunately, Liberal members from Quebec
continue to turn a deaf ear to the message sent by those who
have been defending Quebec's expertise for decades.
The Bloc Quebecois is the only party sensible enough to oppose
this unjustified panic among the Liberals, who would rather
upstage the Reformers when it comes to juvenile crime.
Youth justice is faced with a strange problem. The federal
government stubbornly refuses to put its trust in the youth
justice system, when it should be doing everything it can to
support that system.
* * *
[English]
SANDRINE'S GIFT OF LIFE
Mr. Ian Murray (Lanark—Carleton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
last May the national capital region was touched by the tragic
death of 11 year old Sandrine Craig in a school bus accident.
Friends of her family launched an intense two week organ donor
awareness campaign following the Craig's decision to donate
Sandrine's organs, an act which greatly enhanced the lives of six
people.
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Today “Sandrine's Gift of Life” was launched as a national
donor awareness campaign. Volunteers working out of the eastern
Ontario branch of the Kidney Foundation of Canada will head the
campaign and the Association of Canadian Community Colleges will
organize local campaigns through their colleges, extending into
900 communities across Canada. Through this campaign family
members will be encouraged to share their wishes and to encourage
others to do the same. This campaign will touch and benefit
millions of Canadians.
I encourage all Canadians to consider signing an organ donor
card so that a tragic loss such as that faced by Sandrine's
family may offer hope to other families.
* * *
SANDRINE'S GIFT OF LIFE
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, during my
years in medical practice I dealt regularly with the tragedy of
unexpected death, the grieving, the tears and the anguish. The
story I relate today is bittersweet.
It starts with the tragic loss of Sandrine, an 11 year old girl
killed near Ottawa. Her family showed enormous courage by
consenting to her organs being donated to help sick sufferers.
They then went further with a community organ donation program
that enjoyed remarkable success.
Today, with support from the Kidney Foundation, the Association
of Canadian Community Colleges, broadcaster Don Cherry and the
Speaker of this House, a national organ donor awareness campaign
was launched. I will be personally signing my own organ donor
card. I encourage every member of parliament to sign on as an
example to the rest of Canada.
“Sandrine's Gift of Life”—what a fitting legacy.
* * *
CHARMAINE CROOKS
Ms. Judy Sgro (York West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it gives me
much pleasure to rise in the House today to pay tribute to
Charmaine Crooks, holder of 11 Canadian track records and
medalist in the Commonwealth and Pan Am Games. She was a silver
medal winner in the 4x400 relay at the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics
and the Canadian Olympic team flag bearer at the 1996 Olympic
Games in Atlanta.
This past week Ms. Crooks joins nine other IOC athlete
commission members to be elected voting members of the
International Olympic Committee. She was a member of the
committee that spawned the World Anti-Doping Agency and the
reform commission that has pushed for transparency and
accountability in the international Olympic movement.
At 37 Ms. Crooks has become a professional singer and television
host since ending her long and outstanding competitive running
career. She is respected throughout Canada and the world for her
dedicated efforts, speaking on behalf of all athletes.
I know that all hon. members will join me in congratulating
Charmaine Crooks and wishing her all the best in her continuing
quest to make sure that athletes' interests remain front and
centre.
* * *
HALIFAX PORT AUTHORITY
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
Halifax port is in danger of losing its competitive edge in the
international shipping industry. Hundreds of jobs are on the
line, as well as millions of dollars in revenue, and an
international reputation is at stake.
The Halifax Port Authority recently demanded several changes to
its 30 year tenant, Halterm, including a 900% increase in rent.
I am concerned that the port authority may be taking an
adversarial approach. The federal government appointed the board
of the authority and I ask that the government ensure that the
authority acts in the best interests of the port, our community
and our region. The federal government has a duty to take a
leadership role in this matter and ensure that the long term
interests of the port of Halifax are upheld.
I urge the government to ensure that it does everything possible
to facilitate renewed negotiations in an atmosphere of mutual
co-operation, not conflict. The people of the Halifax region
deserve no less.
* * *
[Translation]
MINISTER OF INTERGOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Gérard Asselin (Charlevoix, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the Minister
of Intergovernmental Affairs just will not give up. He uses
every possible platform to say that the federal system is
flexible and evolving. For example, on Thursday, the minister
stated his views on the evolution of federalism.
What a disappointment. Not only did the minister discuss the
issue of a clear majority in a confusing manner, he also had the
nerve to say that the federalist status quo is working just
fine.
We want to set the record straight by reminding the minister
that a recent poll conducted by the research and information
centre on Canada, or CRIC, shows that only 13% of Quebecers
support the status quo.
Another poll tells us that 60% are unhappy with the division of
powers between Ottawa and Quebec. Worse still, another poll
commissioned by the minister's own department indicates that 62%
of Quebecers disagree with the statement that the situation is
improving in Canada.
The Canadian system—
The Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member.
* * *
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[English]
THE LATE JIM BALFOUR
Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Mr. Speaker, I
rise in the House today to mourn the loss of one of our
colleagues from the Senate who also spent seven years on this
side of the House as a member of parliament.
I speak of the passing of Senator Jim Balfour on Sunday at the
age of 71. The Saskatchewan senator died after a long fought
battle with cancer. He lived a life marked by more than one
personal tragedy, including the untimely loss of several close
members of his family.
Senator Balfour served on this side of the House after winning a
seat in Regina as a Progressive Conservative member of parliament
in 1972 and was re-elected in 1974. Under Joe Clark's government
Mr. Balfour was appointed to the Senate in 1979 where he served
for 20 years.
His tireless work on behalf of the people of Saskatchewan speaks
for itself. Jim will be remembered both in his private and
public life and the vast body of work he has left behind. He
will greatly missed by all in the Progressive Conservative Party.
On behalf of the national caucus and leader of our party, I wish
to extend my deepest condolences and sympathy to his family and
to all those who knew him.
* * *
CHRISTMAS GREETINGS
Mr. Paul Bonwick (Simcoe—Grey, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise today to offer Christmas greetings to all Canadians.
This is the most precious time of year to spend with loved ones,
enjoy the Christmas spirit and, most important, enjoy the company
of family. However there are many who are less fortunate, not
able to celebrate this festive season let alone have a decent
meal. There are young children going without toys.
We can make a difference. I ask my colleagues from all parties
to join me and encourage their constituents to give to the many
food banks and toy drives taking place in this great land. We
should remember as we celebrate the birth of Christ that we
should also celebrate this day with a true spirit of giving.
I want to take this opportunity, on behalf of the constituents
of Simcoe—Grey, the Bonwick family and the 15 uncles and aunts
visiting Ottawa today, to wish everyone in the House a very merry
Christmas and a happy new year.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
GOVERNMENT GRANTS
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
merry Christmas too, but there is a merry Christmas going on with
René Fugère right now. He is probably finishing up his Christmas
card list and I bet there is a beauty in there for the Prime
Minister.
He can afford to send a nice one because of the $11,500 payback
he got from arranging $100,000 in federal grants to, you guessed
it, Mr. Speaker, the Grand-Mère inn through the Prime Minister's
Office. That is pretty good return on your money; it is better
than most mutual funds.
Does the Prime Minister see nothing wrong with one of his
federal riding executives getting this kind of kickback from a
federal grant?
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: The question is in order but I would ask
members to stay away from the word kickback, for today anyhow.
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let us look at the particular project.
First, it occurred in an area of high unemployment. The project
was recommended and supported by all local partners: the
provincial government, the local caisse populaire, la Fédération
des travailleurs du Québec solidarity fund, the group forces of
private sector investment and the Banque de développement du
Canada.
All these partners supported the investment of money which did
not flow until the appropriate approval process was undertaken.
Nineteen jobs were expected to be created and nineteen jobs are
there.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Thanks anyway,
Mr. Speaker, but when it comes to being a Liberal person in
Shawinigan I think membership has its rewards.
Fugère's rewards are not just limited to that $11,500. He is
the same fellow who is being investigated by the RCMP right now
for breaking the Lobbyist Registration Act. The Prime Minister
knows it. Why would that be? It would be for his efforts on
behalf of three other companies in the Prime Minister's riding.
We see a little pattern. The Prime Minister keeps Fugère on his
gravy train. Does he see nothing wrong with that?
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member already knows that investigations with
respect to the Lobbyists Registration Act were initiated as a
result of newspaper reports. I am sure the hon. member would
very much like to wait until she hears the results of that
investigation before casting such aspersions.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
think the only person who could answer should answer. What we
need is clarity.
Let us put this in perspective again. The Grand-Mère inn gets a
$100,000 cheque from the federal government.
Just 10 days later that same inn writes an $11,500 cheque to a
member of the Prime Minister's riding executive with a known
ability to, let us just say, negotiate the winning conditions.
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Does the Prime Minister approve of all his riding executive
getting such cash, or does Fugère just have special status?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am very happy when entrepreneurs in my riding are
creating jobs. I am doing my job as a member of parliament. Mr.
Fugère never worked for me and has never been on the executive of
my riding.
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it
is not the entrepreneurs we are worried about. It is people with
close ties to the Prime Minister.
Four days before the last election René Fugère attended a press
conference on behalf of the Prime Minister. He represented the
Prime Minister at the conference to announce this very grant for
this very hotel. In fact he spoke on behalf of the Prime
Minister. Obviously the Prime Minister knew all about the deal
with the Grand-Mère hotel.
The Prime Minister loves to take credit for all the grants he
doles out in Shawinigan, but will the Prime Minister take
responsibility for the particular grant?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I repeat again that yes, I have worked for my riding. I
am happy to report to the House of Commons that some years ago
the Saint-Maurice Valley had the highest unemployment in the
land. It is no longer the case because they have a very good
member of parliament working for them.
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
Prime Minister is still trying to dispute the old headline in the
1993 election “Elect Me and I will be Santa Claus”. The facts
stand for themselves.
The Grand-Mère hotel gets $100,000 in federal government grants.
The Grand-Mère hotel then turns over more than $11,000 to the
person who represents the Prime Minister at the press conference
to announce that very grant, the same guy who is under
investigation for three other grants that he obtained illegally
because he is not a registered lobbyist.
The Prime Minister is well aware of the pattern that is
developing. There is a new one every week. Why is it that he
finds it so hard to step in and stop what is going on in
Shawinigan?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, if I were to take the time of the House to list all the
ridings of the Reform Party that have benefited from the same
program of the federal government, I would probably take all of
question period.
I will say to the House of Commons and to the member who asked
the question that I will keep working for my riding as long as
the level of unemployment is higher than in Alberta.
* * *
[Translation]
BILL C-20
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs said “if no
one in this country any longer threatens others with the
possibility of separation”. That clarifies the debate.
Behind the grand speeches and expounding on democracy, this bill
is nothing more than an attempt to silence the democratic
expression of the Quebec people.
Will the Prime Minister admit that by wishing to be the sole
arbiter of the clarity of the question and the clarity of the
result, he is giving advance confirmation in the bill of his
real intention, which is to deny the right of Quebecers to
decide their own future?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
what we are seeking is honesty and clarity. We want people to
know exactly what to expect.
If the Bloc Quebecois wants to respect the opinion of Quebecers,
it should note that yesterday two other polls clearly confirmed
that over 70% of Quebecers want no more referendums in Quebec.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, if
the Prime Minister wants to talk about honesty and clarity when
it comes to polls—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. I ask you not to use the word
honesty too often today. The leader of the Bloc Quebecois.
1425
Mr. Gilles Duceppe: Mr. Speaker, I would have liked you to
address your remark to the Prime Minister. It would have been
clearer.
The Prime Minister does not understand the difference between
1982 and the present situation. He can no longer count on a
majority of docile members from Quebec to legitimize his bill,
any more than he can count on Quebec's support, because two-thirds
of the members from Quebec in this House are opposed to
his bill.
In the circumstances, will he be clear and honest enough to tell
us that there is no legitimate justification for his bill?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
since we are speaking of clarity, I could perhaps read the
following quote in the House “The court spells it out; it does
not want the decision to be ambiguous, and the purpose of the
ruling is to ensure that the decision is truly based on an
accurate understanding of the situation—that the process takes
place very clearly and transparently, that the undertakings are
clear, and that naturally the question is clear as well”.
This was what Lucien Bouchard said on August 21, 1998.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please.
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs has been very unreasonable
over the past few days.
Yesterday, he let it slip that the purpose of his bill is to
prevent any new referendum in Quebec. The Minister said
“—no one in this country any longer threatens others with
the possibility of separation”.
Will the minister finally admit that his legislation is nothing
but a new padlock act, an act to put a lock on Quebec's future?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, everyone can check and see how the Bloc Quebecois
distorted my comments.
One simply has to look at the transcripts of Oral Question
Period, in yesterday's Hansard. I said “—we have improved Canada
in a variety of ways and will continue to do so. We will be able
to do so even better if no one in this country any longer
threatens others with the possibility of separation”.
This is what I said and I see nothing outrageous about it. The
question did not even deal with the bill. It related to the
memory of my father and it was despicable.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please.
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, we
will again quote the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs,
because he was even clearer on Friday, in replying to a question
from the hon. member for Macleod.
Again, I am quoting the minister “We Quebecers will never lose
Canada in confusion, nor will we lose it in clarity”.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please.
Mr. Daniel Turp: Mr. Speaker, I would appreciate it if members
opposite would listen to the whole quote “We Quebecers will
never lose Canada in confusion, nor will we lose it in clarity”.
This is from the minister.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. I ask the hon. member to please put
his question.
1430
Mr. Daniel Turp: Mr. Speaker, if this were the comic strip
Astérix, we would say “These Romans are crazy”.
Will the minister be reasonable for once and admit that his only
goal is to keep Quebec in Canada at any cost, even by
restricting the freedom of Quebecers?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, first I thank the hon. member for making me smile
again. Second, this clarity bill should not be threatening to
anyone. Who is afraid of clarity?
We believe that if things are clear, Quebecers will always
choose to remain Canadians. Should we be wrong, then this
legislation will be there to help us overcome the tremendous
difficulties that would result from negotiating secession.
It is in everyone's interest, including separatists, to realize
that secession can only be negotiated in clarity.
* * *
[English]
HEALTH CARE
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, here is
what people are reading about health care in today's newspapers:
crowded emergency rooms, stretcher-bound waits for beds and
ambulances roaming city streets searching for hospitals to take
their patients. That is the rule not the exception in Canadian
health care these days.
Does the federal Minister of Health accept his share of
responsibility for the harm done to health care or is he just
going to continue to blame the provinces?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I am working very hard with those provinces. I am working with
every minister of health in the country to find solutions for the
long term, to address the very issues that the member mentioned
in her question, to deal with the crowded emergency rooms, the
waiting lists and the shortages.
As recently as last September, all the ministers of health
agreed on priorities that we are working toward together to get
that job done. It includes increased money from the federal
government, money that we substantially increased last February
in the budget. We will continue in that vein.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, that is
great rhetoric from the health minister, but he knows perfectly
well that for every dollar cut this government will return 50
cents, if that, and home care has been completely forgotten.
What that means is that hospitals are backed right up to the
emergency rooms.
A Toronto emergency room nurse put it bluntly, “Christmas is
going to be a disaster for people needing health care”.
Is the minister content to preside over more hallway medicine or
will he deliver on home care as promised?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
we are delivering. As we speak, governments are working together
to map out home care for the future and make it part of medicare
in this country.
Tomorrow I am meeting with the minister of health from Manitoba
to discuss that very project. Last week, all the deputy
ministers of health in the country met to discuss that very
project.
The leader of the New Democratic Party should learn what is
going on in the country in relation to health care. There are
changes afoot. The federal government is showing leadership and
governments are working together to make those problems better.
* * *
1435
DRUG APPROVAL
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Mr.
Speaker, the drug approval regulatory process is in total
disarray. On one side of the issue, we have a minister who, on
his own signature, can override the best scientific analysis his
department can provide to approve a drug knowing full well he
always has to err on the side of caution.
On the other side of the issue, we have cancer fighting drugs,
life saving drugs that have been bogged down in the regulatory
process going on two years. Some of these drugs were approved
two years ago in other jurisdictions and in other countries.
How can the minister continue to operate under this conflicting
set of guidelines within his own department?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the Conservative Party cannot have it both ways: on the one hand,
criticizing Health Canada because drug approvals take too long,
and on the other, criticizing Health Canada because we innovate
to get drug approvals through more quickly.
I can tell the hon. member that the bottom line for us is public
safety and getting drugs to the patient as quickly as we can,
consistent with public safety.
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Mr.
Speaker, what we are looking for is leadership on the issue. I
have mentioned the need to be compassionate in that process, but
we are looking at 40 countries in the world where this particular
drug, Rituxan, that I am mentioning by name, has been approved.
We are bogged down in a regulatory process that is denying
patients that drug.
We are looking for international leadership to allow us to
exchange information with other jurisdictions. Does the minister
have a plan to share international information to avoid the cost
of duplication in bringing these drugs to market?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Yes, Mr.
Speaker, and we are working with other governments for that
purpose.
Let me tell the hon. member that we will approve these new
pharmaceutical products as quickly as we can in keeping with the
criteria of safety and efficacy. We will do that in every case.
In relation to the very drug that the member mentioned, he knows
that we are working on that now. We are doing everything we can
to bring that to market as soon as possible, consistent with
public safety.
* * *
FOREIGN INVESTMENT
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
Canadians who have access to high priced lawyers and accountants
are able to exceed the 20% foreign property limit in their RRSPs
and pensions. For example, according to an access to information
request, a company I have never heard of called Canada Steamship
Lines has 40% of its assets currently invested in foreign
companies through their $300 million pension fund.
Can the Prime Minister explain why some people are able to
circumvent these foreign ownership rules while the rest of the
country has to abide by that 20% limit?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, all of us in the
House know that the 20% foreign property limit is something that
has been under review. We were looking forward to receiving the
reports from the various committees and have received them. We
have also received some other reports. The whole issue of the
foreign limit is a matter which is under review by the government
at this time.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
think the minister misunderstood because some companies, like the
company called Canada Steamship Lines, already has 40% of its
pension fund invested in foreign properties. This is a two tier
pension system. While those with means can invest where they
want to, the rest of us have to abide by that 20% rule.
Is this not just another Liberal example of “do as I say and
not as I do?”
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we all
understand the situation very well. We have been listening to
committees as to exactly what they have been doing. We
understand that there are certain ways that cloned funds and
derivatives have been used in various ways. This is a reality of
the marketplace. There is nothing new here at all. This is a
matter which the government has under active review.
* * *
[Translation]
BILL C-20
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
although claiming to provide clarification, this bill has
nothing to say about the percentage required, and what is more
it is dictating the question to the national assembly.
Will the minister agree that the only thing that comes across in
his bill is that he is seeking, unequivocally, to prevent the
Quebec people from deciding its own future, which is
unacceptable?
1440
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, far more progress will be made when the Bloc Quebecois
stops imputing motives, particularly since it seems that we are
more and more in agreement on the substance.
According to a statement made by the member for
Beauharnois—Salaberry, the intergovernmental affairs critic,
clarity on the majority and on the question would be a part of
discussions after the referendum vote. He says the borders
would be negotiable. If that is the case, our positions are
moving closer together, rising above the vehemence of the Bloc
Quebecois.
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Quebec referendum legislation does not set out any percentage
because all parties in the national assembly support the rule of
50% plus one.
The federal government is challenging this percentage. Does the
Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, that staunch defender of
clarity, feel that clarity is having people vote without letting
them know in advance what he considers an acceptable level to
engage in negotiations?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it is obvious that negotiating the breakup of a
country, with its population cut in two, is totally
irresponsible, but the hon. member does not need to take my word
for it. Here is a quote “If, say, a referendum were won by 52%,
would there be sufficient political cohesion in Quebec? That is
the big question for me”.
This was asked on June 15, 1994, by Lucien Bouchard.
* * *
[English]
FOREIGN INVESTMENT
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
Canadian families not only have to worry about this government's
onerous tax burden and feeding and clothing their families, they
also have to try to scrape together RRSP contributions for their
retirement.
However, the finance minister's rules limit the amount that
families can invest in foreign owned companies to 20%. On the
other hand, interestingly the finance minister's own company
skirted the spirit of those rules by investing 40% of its pension
fund in foreign owned companies.
My question is for the Prime Minister. Why do the rules that
are imposed on every Canadian family not apply to the finance
minister's own company?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, as everybody knows, all the assets of the Minister of
Finance were put in trust the day he became the Minister of
Finance. He is doing his job. Trying to throw mud at the
Minister of Finance, who has always acted in a very proper
fashion, is absolutely unacceptable.
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, we
are talking about the finance minister's company here. What is
very clear is that when it came to his company's pension plan,
the finance minister's company ignored the spirit of his own
regulations. He did not want to be limited to the normal—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. The hon. member for Calgary
Centre.
Mr. Eric Lowther:—20% ceiling that he imposes on all
other Canadian RRSPs. He made 18% in one year but he denied
other Canadians the same opportunity.
Why does the Prime Minister impose rules on Canadian families
that he does not impose on the finance minister's company?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member is just trying to attack the Minister of
Finance indirectly.
The Minister of Finance put all his assets in trust. Everything
is managed at arm's length. He does not oversee any of the
decisions. I am sure the hon. member does not want to drag the
Minister of Finance into that situation. The minister has
respected all the rules provided for under the conflict of
interest code.
* * *
[Translation]
BILL C-20
Mrs. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in 1991, the
supreme court ruled as follows:
There is a further, equally important aspect of the right,
namely that each vote must be relatively equal to every other
vote. To water down the importance and significance of an
individual's vote is to weaken the democratic process.
My question is for the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.
Since supreme court decisions seem to be very important for the
government, how can the minister defend a bill that promotes the
inequality of votes, in flagrant contradiction of a supreme
court ruling?
1445
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, my response is that there is no contradiction at
all. The reason the supreme court talks about a clear majority
is obviously because the clarity of the majority must be
assessed, and for that it is necessary to know the circumstances
in which a referendum is held. There is therefore no pre-set
threshold either, any more than there is such a threshold in
Quebec's Loi des consultations populaires.
If the member is determined that one vote should have the
same value as another, she should tell us that it is three out
of five and that it will take three victories in a row to wipe
out our two—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. The hon. member for Laurentides.
Mrs. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in another
supreme court decision, we find the following “A
system which dilutes one citizen's vote unduly as compared with
another citizen's vote runs the risk of providing inadequate
representation to the citizen whose vote is diluted. The result
will be uneven and unfair representation”.
Does the minister want to reverse his position and defend with
democrats the rule that all votes are equal?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, if I am not mistaken, there was a referendum with a
90% win in Mont-Tremblant, in the member's riding. I suppose she
will be writing to Quebec's minister of municipal affairs,
Louise Harel, to insist that she respect that decision.
A referendum is not a decision, not in Quebec law and not in
Canadian federal law. A referendum is a consultation and its
results must be evaluated using different criteria, including
the clarity of the question and the clarity of the result.
* * *
[English]
CORRECTIONAL SERVICES CANADA
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
according to a correctional services task force report on
security: “The service's goal is to move toward a concept of
security that is elegant and discreet”.
Has the solicitor general contracted Tommy Hilfiger to design
these new facilities?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Solicitor General of Canada,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague has the report that was
done by Correctional Services Canada. There is absolutely
nothing to indicate that any of this report would ever be put in
place by Correctional Services Canada.
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, all
other reports have made it. The mandate for this task force
suggests “the members of the task force reflect on the people
side of corrections, remembering the stories of offenders”.
This entire report was written with the offender as the victim.
This report is an embarrassment to all victims in Canada. My
question is for the solicitor general.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. The hon. member was coming to his
question.
Mr. Myron Thompson: Mr. Speaker, they should be ashamed
of themselves laughing at victims.
When will we see a task force made up of victims, made up of
guards, made up of frontline workers instead of these bleeding
heart bookworms from their ivory towers?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Solicitor General of Canada,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this is nothing but a report at this
stage. It has not even been discussed by the senior executives
at Correctional Services Canada. I wish my hon. colleague would
not jump to conclusions.
* * *
[Translation]
BILL C-20
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in the bill
introduced by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, the
numerous requirements regarding the number of players to be
consulted are not fooling anyone. Behind the alleged search for
clarity, the minister is in fact making a shameless attempt at
political blackmail.
Will the minister admit that this bill, with its slew of
unreasonable requirements, is nothing but a tool that the
federal government is giving itself to make sure there will
always be someone to suggest that it should not negotiate?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, we are required to do so by the supreme court
opinion that the Bloc Quebecois and the PQ government praised
for over a year.
1450
This opinion states that in the event of secession, the
partners in the federation ought to assess the situation and
negotiate in good faith and in compliance with the principles
set out by the court, namely democracy, the rule of law,
constitutionalism and respect for minorities. Everyone would be
bound by these principles, including the government that is
seeking to secede.
* * *
[English]
STEEL INDUSTRY
Mr. Carmen Provenzano (Sault Ste. Marie, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Revenue.
In October the minister launched an investigation into the
illegal dumping of foreign hot rolled carbon steel plate into the
Canadian market. This investigation was in response to a
complaint filed by Algoma Steel, a company employing 4,000
steelworkers in my riding of Sault Ste. Marie.
What action has he taken to ensure this complaint is being
processed without unnecessary delay?
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of National Revenue and
Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the
Regions of Quebec), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon.
member for this very important question.
I wish to confirm as the Minister of National Revenue that we
have decided to proceed with a major investigation based on a
complaint filed by Algoma Steel Corporation. We are looking at
whether or not there is dumping. A decision will be taken at the
beginning of next year. If there is dumping, we will have to
proceed with temporary duties.
* * *
CORRECTIONAL SERVICES CANADA
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
do you feel lucky? If you have been convicted and sentenced to
the new Club Fed, you are darn right you do. The task force on
security has recommended that “the majority of institutions be
classified as multilevel—consisting of maximum, medium and
minimum security inmates”. It is kind of like a con condo by
Correctional Services Canada.
Does the solicitor general agree with the task force, yes or no?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Solicitor General of Canada,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I indicated yesterday I have not seen
the report. The senior executives from Correctional Services
Canada have not seen the report. There is absolutely nothing to
indicate that anything in the report would be put in place.
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
it is gratifying to know there is at least one person in Canada
who has not seen this report, the solicitor general. This report
goes on to state: “The over-utilization of bulletproof glass
may give the illusion of openness, but at the same time reduces
human contact and hinders effective intervention”.
I wonder what the solicitor general would like to say to the
victims of crime who are looking at these perpetrators and
wondering why there is even consideration of no armed guards, no
razor wire fences, institutions complete with golf courses and
riding stables—
The Speaker: The hon. solicitor general.
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Solicitor General of Canada,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that my hon. colleague
is indicating that this is government policy. It is not. I can
assure my hon. colleague that I will not support any measures
that would jeopardize security in our federal institutions—
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
* * *
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Dick Proctor (Palliser, NDP): Mr. Speaker, last month
in his AIDA confessional the agriculture minister said that it
was costly, complicated and cumbersome. He also said that he had
taken a tough approach to ensure that all 1998 AIDA cheques would
be delivered before Christmas. With nine shopping days left,
information from his own department proves that there is more
than $1 billion in the system and tens of thousands of farm
families desperate to receive a portion of this money.
What is the minister's plan B to ensure the money will be
in the farmers' hands before Christmas?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member knows that the AIDA money
announced by the government a year ago was for over two years. A
portion of that money was allocated and it was assumed it would
be sent out to the farmers after their applications were reviewed
as a result of their 1998 business. By far of the majority, there
will be very few of those. When the information is all in from
the producers, there will be very few applications that trigger a
payment as a result of 1998 that will not be in the hands of the
producers.
1455
Mr. Dick Proctor (Palliser, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
minister has been widely quoted recently as saying he was
practising tough love for farmers. I think he should keep a dose
of the same medicine for his own department.
The fact of the matter is that there was a $420 million output
on AIDA as of December 9. That means there is more than $500
million in the system for 1998.
When will that money get out to the farmers? The Minister of
Agriculture and Agri-Food promised it before Christmas at the
Sask Wheat Pool convention on November 18.
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member should get his numbers
right. The calculation that was used by the industry, by all the
provincial input and with the safety nets advisory committee was
$600 million for the 1998 farm business year, the remainder for
the 1999 business year.
I can assure the hon. member that all of that money will be in
the hands of the producers at the end of those two years.
* * *
HALIFAX INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Minister of Transport.
Under the access to information program, we received a letter
written by the minister to the Halifax International Airport
Authority dated July 22, 1998. It outlined the terms of the
agreement to take over the airport. One of the sentences the
minister used in his own letter is: “This offer confirms
Transport Canada's intent to assume liabilities for the current
pyritic slate mitigation program”.
That is a very clear commitment by the minister. It is very
simple. The department has now reneged on that commitment. Will
the minister please confirm to us he will instruct his department
to honour the commitment and assume the responsibility for
existing pollution at Halifax airport?
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member knows, since that letter was
written, there has been an agreement concluded with the Halifax
International Airport Authority and it was to its satisfaction.
If there is some problem with that agreement, then obviously I
will look into it.
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr.
Speaker, it is not only the minister's letter. There is a signed
letter, a signed agreement, signed by the director of airports
divestiture that says: “Transport Canada agrees to continue to
be responsible for pyritic slate runoff existing prior to
transfer date”. It is very clear and very simple.
Surely if the Government of Canada signs an agreement and a
person signs an agreement with the government, the government
should honour that commitment. Will the minister instruct his
department to honour the commitment?
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, this government honours all of its commitments. In
the meantime there has been a signed agreement between the
authority and the government. I assume that covers the question
the hon. member has outlined.
* * *
ARTS AND CULTURE
Mr. Gurbax Singh Malhi (Bramalea—Gore—Malton—Springdale,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, recently the federal government announced
additional funds to prepare young Canadians for careers in the
arts, film and video. Can the Minister of Canadian Heritage
explain to the House why it is necessary to support professional
training institutions in arts and culture across Canada?
[Translation]
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Department of
Canadian Heritage is pleased to join the Department of Human
Resources Development in announcing a $65 million initiative
over the next five years. This initiative reflects the
commitment made to young Canadians by the federal government.
With 19 national institutions and schools of theatre, dance and
cinema across the country, we are training people to continue
Canada's excellent work in the cultural sector.
* * *
[English]
HEALTH
Mr. Reed Elley (Nanaimo—Cowichan, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
today the first steps toward a class action suit by 300 Canadians
against Health Canada will be initiated over the failing of a jaw
implant that is causing facial bones to actually rot.
Years ago U.S. authorities prohibited the sale of this product
and in Canada the Dental Surgeons of Ontario echoed the same
concern. That should have been enough for Health Canada to spring
into action, but it did nothing.
Why will the health minister allow this to happen? Will he not
admit his failure and take some responsibility for these victims?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I understand that very subject is before the courts in
litigation. Everybody will have ample opportunity to find out
what the true facts are and then a court will judge.
The hon. member might do well to wait until the facts come out
before jumping to the conclusions that he expressed so
emphatically this afternoon.
* * *
1500
[Translation]
FRANCOPHONES OUTSIDE QUEBEC
Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in his Bill
C-20, the Prime Minister says he is concerned about respect for
the rights of the anglophone minority in Quebec.
Quebec has repeatedly reaffirmed its commitment in this regard.
But the Prime Minister has never made similar commitments with
respect to the francophone minority in Canada.
Will he tell us today what he intends to do to ensure respect
for the rights of francophones outside Quebec?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have worked on this problem throughout my political career. I
did so with the charter of rights and freedoms in 1982.
Throughout my career I have done so and I will continue to do
so.
I have said this publicly and I will I repeat it. I welcome this
opportunity to say that this government feels it is very
important for the nation's capital to be bilingual.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
I rise on a point of order. Following the tabling by—
The Speaker: Is this something to do with what went on during
Oral Question Period?
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Yes, Mr.
Speaker.
The Speaker: The hon. member has the floor.
* * *
POINTS OF ORDER
TABLING OF DOCUMENTS
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
all the Bloc Quebecois questions have had to do with this very
important issue, which involves the future of the people of
Quebec.
I therefore seek the unanimous consent of the House to table a
document which will certainly enlighten it as the holiday season
approaches.
The Speaker: Order, please.
I again ask the hon. whip whether this is something directly
related to what went on during Oral Question Period.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: The answer is yes, Mr. Speaker.
The Speaker: The hon. whip for the Bloc Quebecois.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, following the government's
tabling of a bill denying the fundamental rights of Quebecers, I
seek the unanimous consent of the House to table a document that
will certainly enlighten it.
It is a brief tabled by—
The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent for the hon. member to
table this document?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Speaker: Perhaps we could proceed in this fashion. I will
start with the second row and with the hon. member for Joliette.
1505
Mr. René Laurin (Joliette, BQ): Mr. Speaker, a book entitled “Le
pari de la franchise” was recently published. I think that
following the announcement by the federal government of the
tabling of a bill denying the fundamental rights of Quebecers,
it might be useful to members of the House to take a look at a
part of this book.
Consequently, I ask for the unanimous consent of the House to
table this document.
The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Benoît Serré (Timiskaming—Cochrane, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on a
point of order.
I would like to tell the thousands of Quebecers and French
Canadians across the country who are listening to us that, like
all the Bloc members, I have a document in my possession. It is
a report from the Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages
asking that the city of Ottawa—
The Speaker: This is a point of debate, not a point of order.
Mr. Benoît Serré: Mr. Speaker, to be fair, if members of the
Bloc Quebecois have the right to ask for the unanimous consent
of the House to table a paper, I believe that—
The Speaker: In that case, the hon. member has the floor.
Mr. Benoît Serré: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a document
and seek unanimous consent that the House ask the Ontario
legislature to make our national capital, Ottawa, a bilingual
city where both French and English are recognized.
The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have here
the speech the Prime Minister of Canada delivered in Hull on
November 28, 1999, where he says that the referendum questions,
both in 1980 and in 1995, were clear.
To clarify matters for the House, following the Prime Minister's
announcement concerning the tabling of a bill denying the
fundamental rights of Quebec, I ask for the unanimous consent of
the House to table this speech.
1510
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, I noticed earlier that, in
all his wisdom, the Speaker of the House has allowed our
colleague across the way to complete his presentation before
asking for unanimous consent to table the document.
May I ask that you extend the same consideration to the members
of our party, allowing us to finish our presentations so that
our colleagues know exactly what we want?
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: We want fairness.
The Deputy Speaker: There was fairness. Some hon. members
have already completed their presentations. The problem is that
they are somewhat repetitious—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Deputy Speaker: But yes, after numerous requests for
unanimous consent, the Chair may speed things up a little.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, I have no doubts about your
great mental capacity, nor do I have any doubts about your
capacity for precognition. This being said, I do not think that
you can assume what my colleagues will say when they stand.
You must give them the opportunity to offer their point of view
so that all members of this House know what it is all about
before deciding whether to give their consent or not.
The Deputy Speaker: When I interrupted the hon. member for
Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, he had already indicated that he wanted to
table a document and was asking for the unanimous consent of the
House to do so. The House refused consent.
Mr. Gérard Asselin (Charlevoix, BQ): Mr. Speaker, further to the
introduction by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs of a
bill denying Quebecers their fundamental rights, I ask for the
unanimous consent of the House to table a document that will
enlighten this House.
This is an article that was published on December 11, 1999 in La
Presse which describes how upset Quebec, and especially its
national capital, are as a result of the announcement—
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have here a
document which could be useful to members of the House following
the tabling by the federal government of a bill denying the
fundamental rights of Quebecers.
It is an article published in La Presse on December 16, 1994,
where it was reported that Ottawa's insistence on the word
“separation” being used in the referendum question had no legal
basis.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mrs. Maud Debien (Laval East, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous
consent to table an article published in the Ottawa Citizen on
October 20, where the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs
warned Quebecers and the Quebec government that he would act
unilaterally and attempt to hurt Quebecers.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Pierre Brien (Témiscamingue, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have here a
press release from the Mouvement national des Québécois stating
its position and its total opposition to the bill introduced by
the Prime minister and the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs
and seeking to restrict the fundamental rights of Quebecers.
To enlighten the House, I ask for unanimous consent to table
this document.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Mr. Speaker, a
document prepared by the chief electoral officer of Quebec at
the time of the last referendum shows beyond any doubt that
referendums in Quebec are held very democratically and that we
do not have any lesson to receive from the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs.
For his benefit, I ask for the unanimous consent to table the
document, so that he can read it.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
1515
Mr. Louis Plamondon (Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, further to the introduction by the government of the
bill denying Quebecers their fundamental rights, I ask for the
unanimous consent of the House to table a document that will
enlighten the House.
It is an article published in Le Droit on December 11, 1999,
showing very clearly how the government intends to prevent
Quebecers from freely choosing their future.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker,
we have had cause since yesterday to doubt your capacity to
hear, but this time I must regrettably point out to you that we
heard no one in the House answer no to the request for unanimous
consent we just made.
The Deputy Speaker: The parliamentary secretary indicated his
opposition very clearly to the Chair.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, I see that your hearing has
improved considerably since yesterday.
The Deputy Speaker: I also have eyes and I can see when somebody
shakes his head to say no.
Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): Mr. Speaker, further to the
introduction of a bill denying the fundamental rights of
Quebecers, I have here parts of a report on the territorial
integrity of the province of Quebec in the event that it
achieves sovereignty, presented to the committee to examine
matters relating to the accession of Québec to sovereignty in
May of 1992, at the Quebec national assembly, which states that
a sovereign Quebec would undergo no changes in its present
boundaries.
I ask for the unanimous consent of the House to table this
document that should enlighten this House.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for
International Cooperation, Lib.): Mr. Speaker. I ask for the
unanimous consent of the House to table the second report of the
Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Antoine Dubé (Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I
have here a study by the Library of Parliament on the
fundamental rights of Canadians and Quebecers. The study was
prepared in 1988 and is entitled “A Comparison of the Bill of
Rights and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms”.
I ask for the unanimous consent of the House to table this
document that should enlighten—
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Yvan Bernier (Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, further to the introduction by the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs, of a bill denying the fundamental
rights of Quebecers I have here an article from Le Droit
published on December 8, 1995, that establishes that the 50%
plus one rule is acceptable everywhere in Canada, except for
Quebec.
Let me quote the article “People in Ontario—”
The Deputy Speaker: I will not tolerate this and the member
knows it very well. I will guess what he wants to ask. Is there
unanimous consent for the tabling of the document?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have
here a document that could be useful to members of the House
further to the introduction of a bill denying the fundamental
rights and prerogatives of the Quebec people and of the Quebec
nation. Is is the Quebec National Assembly Act.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have here a
study on the social union made by Ghislain Autis for the Quebec
Intergovernmental Affairs Secretariat.
I would ask for unanimous consent to table this document.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
1520
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, I would like to let you know
that the members of the Bloc Quebecois support the tabling of
the report of the joint committee on official languages. I
cannot say where the no came from, but I only wanted to make it
clear that we agree to have this report tabled in the House.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, since I am a member of
the joint committee, I ask for unanimous consent to table the
second report of the Standing Joint Committee on Official
Languages.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker, to your
great surprise and total amazement I am sure, I have here an
article published in the December 11, 1999 issue of La Presse—
The Deputy Speaker: The Bloc Quebecois House leader.
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I just want to
say that, as agreed, the Bloc Quebecois supports the tabling of
the document the hon. member wants to table. I do not understand
why it is not happening now.
An hon. member: Reform said no.
Mr. Michel Gauthier: If I understood right, Reform said no.
[English]
The Deputy Speaker: It is not for the Chair to say where
the noes came from. The Chair heard noes and so unanimous
consent was refused. I expect that there will be an opportunity
some time for presentation of reports from committees. When that
happens maybe the committee report will be presented, but we are
not going to get into a fight about that now.
[Translation]
Mr. Richard Marceau: Mr. Speaker, as I was
saying, I have here an article published in the December 11,
1999 issue of La Presse stating that a simple majority of 50%
plus one is sufficient anywhere in Canada except when it comes
to Quebec. I ask for unanimous consent to table this document.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
[English]
Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I have
a committee report to table and I would ask for unanimous consent
to go to the presentation of reports from committees.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to proceed
to the presentation of reports from committees?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, I ask for the unanimous consent of the House
to table a document that will enlighten the House.
It is a brief that the chairman of the Montreal—Ville-Marie
district of the Parti Quebecois submitted to the Bélanger-Campeau
Commission. Here is an excerpt “Is it not time for Quebec to
finally act as a responsible society and make its own
decisions?” I ask for the unanimous consent of the House to
table this document.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. André Harvey (Chicoutimi, PC): Mr. Speaker, I rise on a
point of order. I ask for the unanimous consent of the House to
table a document which will be inspiring for the government.
There are parts of this document that deserve to be read very
carefully. I ask for the unanimous consent to table the red book
of the Liberal Party, in particular, those parts regarding
cultural identity and cultural development.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have here an
article from the Toronto Star dated December 11, 1999. This
article clearly explains why the purpose of the bill introduced
by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs is to imprison
Quebec in Canada. I ask for the unanimous consent to table this
document.
Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
[English]
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, there are a lot of members from all parties on both
sides of the House who are waiting to present petitions. We only
have today and potentially tomorrow and the next day to do so
before the House adjourns until February.
There are constituents who want petitions presented in the
House and I would seek unanimous consent to do so.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to proceed
with petitions?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
1525
[Translation]
Mr. Yves Rocheleau (Trois-Rivières, BQ): Mr. Speaker, further to
the introduction of this bill whose purpose is to deny the
Quebec people their fundamental rights, I ask for the unanimous
consent of the House to table a document that will enlighten the
House.
It is an ad by the Société Saint-Jean-Baptiste de Montréal
recently published in major dailies in Quebec and entitled
“Shame on Ottawa”.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Serge Cardin (Sherbrooke, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have here a
wonderful text that pays tribute to one of the greatest
advocates of Quebec's interests and democracy, René Lévesque.
The Prime Minister introduced a bill denying Quebecers their
basic rights, and he should read it.
Therefore, I ask for the unanimous consent of the House to table
this document for the enlightenment of all members.
The Deputy Speaker: Does the hon. member have unanimous consent
to table this document?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Maurice Godin (Châteauguay, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have here a
document that could be useful to the members of the House,
further to the introduction by the federal government of a bill
denying Quebecers their fundamental rights. It is an excerpt
from a book recently published and entitled Le pari de la
franchise.
I seek the unanimous consent of the House to table this
document.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I
had the privilege to read an article published in the December
11, 1999 issue of the daily newspaper Le Devoir, in which Henri
Brun proposes an immediate appeal to the international
community, further to the introduction of the bill last week.
Considering the importance of the stakes and the fact the
article is rather short, and therefore will not require a lot of
effort from our colleagues, I beg for the unanimous consent of
the House to table this article.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Paul Mercier (Terrebonne—Blainville, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
further to the introduction by the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs of a bill denying Quebecers their
fundamental rights, I draw the attention of my colleagues to an
article from the October 2, 1995 issue of Le Droit, which says
that the 50% plus one rule applies everywhere in Canada except
in Quebec.
It seems to me that this article would enlighten my colleagues
on the issue—
The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The member is taking too much time
to describe the article. Does he have the unanimous consent of
the House to table the article?
Mr. Paul Mercier: I had not finished, Mr. Speaker.
The Deputy Speaker: If it is a point of order I will hear it.
Mr. Paul Mercier: I did not even have the chance to ask for
unanimous consent so why is this being denied?
I know my colleagues opposite are eager to learn so I ask for
their unanimous consent.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, since last
Friday, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs has been
making confusing and sometimes provocative remarks.
This follows the announcement made by the Prime Minister, who
just introduced a bill denying Quebecers their fundamental
rights.
I would like to table a document from a real party, which has
always defended Quebec's interests and of which I am very proud,
namely the Parti Quebecois. This document is entitled Travailler
pour la souveraineté, pourquoi—
The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I do not want a description
of the article. The member can give the title and maybe ask a
question, but this is a point of order not a speech.
Mr. Odina Desrochers: I therefore ask for unanimous consent to
table this document that will enlighten the House of Commons.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Stéphan Tremblay (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in view of
the fact that my colleague from Chicoutimi was not allowed to
table the document, I have here the Liberal red book.
On page 9, it says “Generations—have dreamed of building—an
independent country”. I agree with that and I ask for unanimous
consent to table the Liberal red book.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
1530
Mr. Gilles-A. Perron (Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, BQ): Mr. Speaker, on
December 11, 1999, I have here an article in the Journal de
Montréal that confirms that Ottawa wants to muzzle Quebec.
Further to the introduction of the bill, I want to table this
article. I ask for unanimous consent to do so.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Ghislain Lebel (Chambly, BQ): Mr. Speaker, further to the
announcement by the Prime Minister and the introduction of a
bill denying the fundamental rights of Quebecers, I ask for the
unanimous consent of the House to table a document that could
certainly enlighten the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.
It is an article published in Le Soleil of December 11, 1999,
which says that ordinary majority, which is 50% plus one—
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand (Québec East, BQ): Mr. Speaker, since the
Prime Minister has introduced a bill denying Quebecers their
fundamental rights, I ask for the unanimous consent of the House
to table a very informative document.
It is an article published in Le Soleil on December 11, 1999,
announcing the bill introduced last Monday. Its title—
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Maurice Dumas (Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
further to the Prime Minister's announcement and to the
introduction of a bill denying Quebecers their fundamental
rights, I ask for the unanimous consent of the House to table a
very informative document.
It is an excerpt from the report on the territorial integrity of
Quebec if it becomes a sovereign country. This report was
submitted to the Commission d'étude des questions afférentes à
la souveraineté of the Quebec national assembly in May 1992.
Through the hon. member for Brome—Missisquoi, I ask for the
unanimous consent of the House.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Ghislain Fournier (Manicouagan, BQ): Mr. Speaker, Mr.
Speaker, since the Liberal government has introduced a bill
denying Quebecers their fundamental rights, I ask for the
unanimous consent of the House to table a very informative
document.
It is a brief which Les Patriotes du pays submitted to the
Bélanger-Campeau Commission. This report says, and I quote—
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mrs. Pierrette Venne (Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
further to the introduction by the Prime Minister of the bill
denying Quebec's fundamental rights, I ask for the unanimous
consent of the House to table a document that will enlighten the
House. This is a brief submitted by the city of Val-d'Or to the
Bélanger-Campeau commission.
This report states, on the first line—
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Deputy Speaker: Are there other points of order. You two?
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Yes, Mr. Speaker.
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm and
the hon. member for Québec East have already intervened. Is this
something else?
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Yes, Mr. Speaker. As you heard earlier,
our House leader, the hon. member for Roberval, has laryngitis.
He has asked me to ask for unanimous consent to table an excerpt
from the referendum act of Colorado—
The Deputy Speaker: No. This is an abuse of the process. We
already decided yesterday and the day before that each of the
members who want to table a document will have the right to do
so. If there is another member who has not intervened yet I
can recognize him. The hon. member for Roberval has already done
this, has he not?
Some hon. members: No.
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member for Roberval.
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I did many
things today but I did not table any document. I will do so
now.
My thanks to my colleague who offered to do it for me because I
am having a small problem but I am still able to talk to you.
1535
Following the announcement by the Prime Minister of the tabling
of a bill negating the fundamental rights of Quebec, I seek the
unanimous consent of the House to table a copy of an
editorial that the hon. members should read written by Alain Dubuc,
a federalist who is against this bill.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I would
like to get unanimous consent for a motion congratulating the
members from the Bloc Quebecois, who so generously represented
the interests of Quebec.
The Deputy Speaker: I cannot allow that.
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have here a
document that the members of this House will find extremely
interesting. It is an explosive document, which shows how the
government's bill on the clarity of the question is making
relations between Quebec and Canada take a turn for the worst.
The Minister for Intergovernmental Affairs starts by saying that
he is not promising any major constitutional reform and then
says that—
The Deputy Speaker: The explanation is a bit long. Does the hon.
member have—
Mrs. Francine Lalonde: Mr. Speaker, this is an explosive
document.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have
here a document that I wish to table with the unanimous consent
of the House.
It includes an excerpt of a book entitled Le pari de la
franchise, something we have not got from the people across the
way for some time now. I would ask for the unanimous consent of
the House to table this document.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent for the hon.
member to table the document?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Louis Plamondon: Mr. Speaker, I have a point of order.
The Deputy Speaker: Has the hon. member not asked to table
something already?
All hon. members should get the opportunity to ask to table a
document.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to come back
to a point of order I made earlier, but you cannot foresee what
my hon. colleague from Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour will say on
his point of order.
You must take the time to listen to him. The standing orders
stipulate that when an hon. member rises you have to recognize
him or her.
The Deputy Speaker: That is not the case. The standing orders
give the chair some discretion. I indicated that everyone should
have the opportunity to ask for the unanimous consent of the
House to table a document. We have done this. We have heard
several points of order from a number of hon. members, including
the whip of the Bloc Quebecois.
We now have to try to proceed to other business and maybe
further down the road we will hear other points of order.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[Translation]
DEFENCE EXPORTS
Mr. Denis Paradis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order
32(2), I am pleased to table on behalf of the government, in both
official languages, the 1998 annual report on Canada's defence
exports.
This annual report provides greater transparency on the export
of these goods from Canada.
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a
point of order.
I wish to table a reflection on poverty which offers a clear
explanation of the disastrous effect of the policies—
The Deputy Speaker: This is an abuse. I have already indicated
that we will have one document tabled by each member. That we
have already done, and we must get on with the business of the
House.
Mr. Paul Crête: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
The Deputy Speaker: Is this another document or not?
Mr. Paul Crête: Mr. Speaker, my colleague from Québec wishes to
table a document. You will not let her do so because you say it
is part of the other series of documents. However, the document
entitled Regard sur la pauvreté is not—
1540
The Deputy Speaker: The Chair has brought down a ruling on this
point and the decision is that each member will have the
opportunity to ask to table one document. It makes no
difference to me that the point of order is on a different
subject, as the subject is not important. It is the tabling of
documents that is involved, and we have finished that now.
Mr. Réal Ménard: Mr. Speaker, first
of all, I wish to thank you for your patience, but I would like
a directive.
I believe it is very important that you indicate to us from the
chair, in a clear and unambiguous manner, the extent of your
attachment to freedom of expression and explain to us why the
hon. member for Brome—Missisquoi has been refused the tabling
of documents. Do you find this acceptable in proper democratic
debate?
The Deputy Speaker: This is not a point of order. The hon.
member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve is really debating with the
Chair.
[English]
All hon. members have had a chance to present a document today.
We are not on debate. We are on points of order.
[Translation]
When are moving slowly on to the debate and the hon. member for
Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, like all the other members, will have
plenty of opportunity to speak.
* * *
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant
to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in both
official languages, the government's response to four petitions.
* * *
INTERPARLIAMENTARY DELEGATIONS
Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 34, I have the honour to present to
the House, in both official languages, the report of the
Canada-Japan Interparliamentary Group and the related financial
report.
The delegation took part in the 10th bilateral meeting between
the Canada-Japan Interparliamentary Group and the Japan-Canada
Parliamentarian Friendship League, held from November 6 to
November 13, 1999.
The delegation also traveled to the region of Hiroshima and to
Shikoku Island, where it met governors of prefectures and senior
officials. It visited the peace memorial park and Hiroshima's
atomic bomb museum, and it met with senior officials of Mazda
Motor Corporation. In all these instances, the delegation
defended Canadian interests.
The delegation's tour was exceptional. Indeed, in addition to
bilateral consultations, the delegation had the great honour of
being welcomed by His Excellency Keiso Obuchi, the Prime
Minister of Japan, by Their Excellencies Soichiro Ito, President
of the House of Representatives, and—
The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I am sorry to interrupt the
hon. member but this is not an opportunity to read the report.
It is simply the tabling of the report and I hope the hon.
member will get to that.
Mr. Bernard Patry: Mr. Speaker, I am therefore pleased to table
the report and I thank you for your patience.
* * *
[English]
INTERPARLIAMENTARY DELEGATIONS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 34(1), I have the honour to present, to
the House, in both official languages, the third report of the
Canada-China Legislative Association regarding the second
bilateral meeting which took place in Canada from October 25 to
October 31, 1999.
* * *
[Translation]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
OFFICIAL LANGUAGES
Mr. Benoît Serré (Timiskaming—Cochrane, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have the honour to present in both official languages, the
second report of the Standing Joint Committee on Official
Languages asking the Ontario legislature to declare Ottawa, the
national capital, a bilingual city with two official languages,
[English]
FISHERIES AND OCEANS
Mr. Wayne Easter (Malpeque, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have
the honour to present, in both official languages, the first
report of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans which
recommends that it be granted permission to travel from February
13 to 23, 2000 to review the Oceans Act, the aboriginal fishing
strategy and the aquaculture issues.
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT AND THE STATUS OF PERSONS WITH
DISABILITIES
Mr. John Godfrey (Don Valley West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have the honour to present, in both official languages, an
interim report of the Standing Committee on Human Resources
Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities emanating
from the sub-committee on children and youth at risk with
proposals for the year 2000 budget concerning a children and
families budget.
1545
[Translation]
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS
Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I have the
honour to present, in both official languages, the third report
of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts relating to audit
observations contained in the April 1999 report of the Auditor
General of Canada entitled “National Defence and Health Canada:
Non-compliance with conditions and inadequate monitoring with
respect to the pre-licensing use of an anti-malarial drug”.
Pursuant to Standing Order 109 of the House of Commons, the
committee requests the government to table a comprehensive
response to this report.
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT AND STATUS OF PERSONS WITH
DISABILITIES
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, further to the
tabling of the report on children and youth at risk by the
Standing Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status
of Persons with Disabilities, I want to point out that the Bloc
Quebecois tabled a dissenting report because the main report
does not take into account the situation the provinces are
facing due to the cuts to the Canada social transfer.
I believe one of the first things the committee should have done
was to make a commitment and to really support the provinces, to
respect their priorities, taking into account their disastrous
financial situation after six years of social deficit.
[English]
Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Speaker, I just want to be sure.
Have we presented the first report of the Standing Committee on
Human Resources Development?
The Deputy Speaker: I believe a report was presented from
the human resources development committee. The hon. member for
Peterborough might consult the Table.
[Translation]
Mr. Benoît Serré: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. When
I presented the report of the official languages committee I
should have said “Ottawa, the capital of Canada” instead of “the
national capital”.
* * *
[English]
PROCEEDS OF CRIME (MONEY LAUNDERING) ACT
Hon. Jim Peterson (for the Minister of Finance) moved for
leave to introduce Bill C-22, an act to facilitate combating the
laundering of proceeds of crime, to establish the Financial
Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada and to amend
and repeal certain acts in consequence.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
NUCLEAR AMENDMENT ACT, 1998
Mr. David Chatters (Athabasca, Ref.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-403, an act to amend the Nuclear Energy Act and
the Nuclear Safety and Control Act.
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to reintroduce my
private member's bill to essentially split responsibility for
Atomic Energy of Canada Limited and the Canadian Nuclear Safety
Commission.
It is quite clear to me, and I think to most Canadians, that
having both these agencies report and be responsible to the same
minister puts that minister in a clear conflict. Splitting that
responsibility would serve Canadians much better.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ) moved for leave to introduce Bill C-404, an act to amend the
Employment Insurance Act and the Department of Human Resources
Development Act, 1999.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present this bill
which contains all the changes to the employment insurance the
Bloc Quebecois is proposing so that it can again become a system
allowing unemployed workers to have a decent income while they
are out of a job.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
1550
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ) moved for leave to introduce Bill C-405, an act to amend the
Employment Insurance Act and another act in consequence, 1999
(Employment Insurance Account and annual premium rate setting).
He said: Mr. Speaker, this is a bill to give back to all of
those who finance the employment insurance program, employers
and employees, total control over that program to stop the
federal government from diverting billions of dollars of the
money people contribute to ensure that they can count on a
decent employment insurance program.
The Deputy Speaker: When shall the bill be read the second time?
At the next sitting of the House?
Some hon. members: At the next sitting of the House.
Some hon. members: Now.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
Mr. Paul Crête: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. When
you recognized my seconder, Mr. Bernier, you forgot to name his
constituency and there are two members named Bernier in the
House.
I would like all the members and the whole population to know
that it is the member for Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok
who supports my demand for reform of the employment insurance
program.
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member is absolutely correct.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, when you introduced this
bill in the House, you very kindly asked when we wished it to be
called for debate the next time and we respectfully requested
that it be now, but you seem to have ignored our request, so—
The Deputy Speaker: Yes, I did hear that, but I also heard
members on the other side ask that it be at the next sitting of
the House. When there is much noise on one side, it may be
difficult to hear what members on the other side are saying but
the Chair can hear everyone.
* * *
[English]
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby,
Ref.) moved for leave to introduce Bill C-406, an act to amend
the Criminal Code (proceeds of crime).
He said: Mr. Speaker, there is a lucrative business in Canada
of smuggling people into our country for profit. Drug
enforcement has the ability to seize cash, goods and property of
smuggling rings. Yet immigration authorities are not awarded the
same power. Proceeds of crime are there for smuggling drugs but
not for people.
My bill, which would amend section 462 of the criminal code,
would allow immigration to seize the profits of people smugglers.
With any underworld activity it is difficult to catch the
kingpins of smuggling operations. However it is essential that
we allow the greatest amount of resources available in order to
begin decreasing the financial incentives for such activity.
Therefore I encourage all parliamentarians in the House to
examine my bill. It is time we put an end to the large
inconsistencies within the Canadian criminal code and go after
proceeds of crime for all crimes.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby,
Ref.) moved for leave to introduce Bill C-407, an act to amend
the Criminal Code (judicial review).
He said: Mr. Speaker, Canadians have always been frustrated
that a life sentence in this country is in fact not a life
sentence. For example, Clifford Olson murdered several children
yet had a chance for a review at 15 years, called the faint hope
clause.
My bill would simply repeal section 745 of the criminal code
including any relevant sections. However, since previous
attempts at repealing this section have raised some
constitutional debate, no part of my bill would be retroactive.
The faint hope clause has no legitimate place in Canadian law.
I encourage all members to rethink the position of this issue,
following my amendment to remove any retroactivity and simply
remove 745 from the criminal code.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
1555
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby,
Ref.) moved for leave to introduce Bill C-408, an act to amend
the Criminal Code (prostitution).
He said: Mr. Speaker, constituents of mine are deeply concerned
with the plaguing problem of street prostitution. They remember
when the law was different and we did not have the pervasive
street trade.
The way the criminal code now reads, public communication to
obtain sexual services carries only a penalty of a summary
conviction. In most cases the offender is given a summons like a
traffic ticket which might result in a small fine.
The bill would amend section 213 of the criminal code making the
penalty of communicating either an indictable offence or a
summary conviction. It makes the section a hybrid or elective
offence, in other words flexibility in the circumstances.
The amendment would give the system a procedural option,
something the police have been asking for. I urge the minister
and all members of the House to strongly consider this vital
improvement for liveable communities.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
[Translation]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
OFFICIAL LANGUAGES
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I seek the unanimous
consent of the House that the second report of the Standing
Joint Committee on Official Languages tabled earlier today be
adopted without debate.
The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to adopt
the second report?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
FINANCE
Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I
move:
That the first report of the Standing Committee on Finance,
which was presented on Friday, December 10, 1999, be concurred
in.
I have moved that the report of the Standing Committee on
Finance be concurred in for the following fundamental reasons.
We travelled across Canada and heard from many witnesses
regarding the use of the surpluses—which do not belong to the
minister but to all taxpayers—in the coming years. We in the
Bloc Quebecois feel that a number of important consensuses have
been completely ignored.
I would like to discuss it here and I would like the report to
be adopted after this speech.
Let us take, for example, the social transfers. The whole issue
of social transfers was debated in the finance committee and was
raised by some of the witnesses. This question was fully
discussed, as the Minister of Finance slashed social transfers.
The committee report does not even mention the possibility of
employment insurance reform, even though it now covers only 42%
of the unemployed.
They have also turned a blind eye to the recommendations made by
my colleague from Québec on the fight against poverty in Canada.
As for the issue of taxes, this major issue was minimized, yet
the Minister of Finance has surpluses coming out of his ears.
I would like to touch upon these issues in the next few minutes
if I may.
As far as social transfers are concerned, since 1994 there has
been a drop in federal transfers to the provinces for funding of
social assistance, post-secondary education and health to the
tune of $22 billion, $6 billion for Quebec alone.
The report by the Liberal majority in the finance committee
ignores these cuts and their devastating effects on the poverty
level in Canada and the situation in the health system.
I would also like to point out in passing that since 1994
Quebec has absorbed 37% of all cuts to Canadian social transfer
funds for post-secondary education, health and income security
while accounting for only 24% of the population of Canada.
This has had disastrous results for Quebec. It has had harmful
effects on Quebec public finances as well. There is a parallel
to be drawn.
1600
By slashing social transfers to the provinces, the Minister of
Finance has hurt Quebec. A few years back, the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs made a number of statements to the
effect that it was necessary to hurt Quebec economically.
That brings me back to the bill recently introduced by the same
minister. This is a bill against Quebec and against Quebecers.
It is a case of one Quebecer going after Quebecers. This
Quebecer can now act in collusion with the Minister of Finance,
another Liberal member from Quebec.
We now have a very unusual alliance that really hurts the
province of Quebec, an alliance between the Minister of Finance,
who fiddles with the figures, and the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs, who fiddles with democracy.
These two devious individuals can now rely on 24 other Liberal
members from Quebec, 24 docile Liberal members who are ready to
crawl on their knees in front of English Canada in order to hurt
Quebec. It is a sad thing because throughout history there
have always been individuals who agreed to fight against their
own people, to do the dirty work for their leaders.
There are 26 such individuals in front of the House, 26 Liberal
members from Quebec who have agreed to spit on Quebec and to
deny Quebecers the freedom to decide their own future. They
typify docility at its worst, kow-towing to their masters and
conquerors.
It is a good thing we can count on the 45 members of the Bloc
Quebecois. It is a good thing that we can count on these members
to unconditionally defend Quebec, its national assembly and the
freedom of its people and that we are not in the same situation
as in 1982 when we had 74 Liberal members from Quebec in this
House who supported the unilateral patriation of the
constitution initiated by Mr. Trudeau. They ignored the national
assembly's near unanimity against the unilateral patriation of
the Constitution.
We, in the Bloc Quebecois, will stand up to fight on behalf of
Quebecers for their right to freedom, to freedom of choice, and
their right to democracy, a healthy democracy the government is
trying to tarnish in this House with the complicity of 26
Liberal members from Quebec who are willing to help the English
Canadian majority do its dirty work.
The report of the Standing Committee on Finance's Liberal
majority is also weak in that it makes no reference to
employment insurance, as I said in my introduction.
People came to tell us that EI eligibility requirements have
become so restrictive that it is virtually impossible for 58% of
unemployed workers, who pay premiums when they are not
unemployed, to receive EI benefits.
Some people also came to tell us that as unemployed workers
they were considered as abusers and cheaters and that they were
harassed day after day and treated as if they were criminals.
This government has become the government of chronic and
institutionalized impossibility.
Again, I want to make a parallel with the bill introduced by the
Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs to establish a framework
for the Quebec democracy.
For example, the bill provides that following a referendum in
Quebec the House of Commons, which is made up of a majority of
representatives from English Canada, will determine whether
there is a clear majority of Quebecers who support secession. To
that end, the House of Commons will take into account the “size
of the majority”. Will there ever be a majority large enough to
be acceptable to this government? No.
The Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs even repeated today
that, whether the question is clear or not, the federal
government will not allow Canada to be broken up.
What is the point of tabling a bill requiring clarity when the
government will not recognize the result of a Quebec referendum,
even if the result is clear?
The bill also refers to the percentage of voters who will have
voted and to any other matters considered to be relevant. This
provision really opens the door to a very broad interpretation
which will ultimately make it impossible to recognize the result
of a Quebec referendum.
1605
The bill also provides that the views of the political parties
and the Senate be taken into account. Can you believe it?
Senators would be consulted to give their opinion on a
democratic process when they are not even elected? This bill is
truly Kafkaesque and the end result is that it will be
impossible for the House of Commons to recognize the referendum
result.
It provides that the House of Commons will take into account any
other relevant views on the majority. Are they going to ask
Howard Galganov, Keith Anderson, Guy Bertrand and, while they
are at it, Youppi, for their opinion on such an important issue,
an issue that has to do with the free and democratic choice of
Quebecers to create an independent country? This makes no sense.
It bears a strange resemblance to the way the EI system has been
run for two years. What we heard in the Standing Committee on
Finance was that the government disqualified most people who
normally should have received benefits. The government is going
after unemployed workers.
Here again the situation is similar. First, the government goes
after unemployed workers and then it goes after all voters in
Quebec. Their right to choose is being taken away. The
exercise of democracy in Quebec's referendums is being devalued.
Quebecers are being treated like children, as are unemployed
workers when they are monitored day after day and identified,
almost as though they were setting out to cheat the system. It
is becoming ridiculous.
There is another similarity between what witnesses had to say
about the EI system and the Minister of Intergovernmental
Affairs' bill.
People told the committee that they were viewed by the system
and by those enforcing it across Canada, based on decisions made
here in the House, as cheaters. This is another big similarity
with the bill introduced by the Minister of Intergovernmental
Affairs, the member for Saint-Laurent—Cartierville.
The Liberal members accuse unemployed workers of defrauding the
system and now, with the bill introduced by the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs, they are assuming and insinuating—and
this is serious; members should listen carefully to what I am
about to say—that all Quebecers are doing the same thing with
democracy. Government members are insinuating that Quebecers
are not playing by the democratic rules.
An hon. member: That is terrible.
Mr. Yvan Loubier: They are considered minors, immature children
who need adult guides such as the federal Liberals and the
federalists in general, children who need guardians and those
supreme possessors of the truth, which the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs, the Prime Minister and the
federalists in general are, to help them make a free choice
within a democratic system.
In short, the federalists in this House have turned into the
neo-colonialists of Canada. They have become the leaders of what
is becoming more and more like a banana republic, who are all
excited at the prospect of crushing those whom they still
consider the “white niggers of America”, to borrow the
expression of Pierre Vallières.
I have a bit of news for them. The Quebec people are too proud
to stand for such treatment.
The Quebec people are too proud to allow themselves to be
crushed.
They will stand up against this with the help of the Bloc
Quebecois here in this Chamber.
In order to be certain that my message is properly understood I
will quote, if I may, two excerpts in English from statements
made by René Lévesque in May 1980 after the Quebec referendum
and by Robert Bourassa after the failure of the Meech Lake
agreement.
[English]
Regardless of the result... it is now undisputed and
indisputable that Quebec constitutes a distinct national community
able to choose its constitutional status for itself, without
outside interference. This right to control their own national
destiny is the most fundamental right the people of Quebec
possess.
[Translation]
That is the end of the quote from Mr. Lévesque's statement of
June 11, 1980, after the first Quebec referendum.
1610
After that came the failure of the Meech Lake agreement, in
which considered Quebec as something very minor, a distinct
society, but rejected totally by Canada. Not only was there the
death kiss of Clyde Wells and the actions of the present Prime
Minister, but Canada too rejected this minimal agreement. In
economics we say “minimum minimorum”, and there is nothing
smaller than that.
Here is what Mr. Bourassa had to say after the failure of Meech.
[English]
“English Canada must clearly understand that no matter what
anyone says or does, Quebec is and always will be a distinct
society that is free and able to control its own destiny and its
own development”.
[Translation]
Those are the words of Mr. Bourassa. In other words, Quebec
alone will decide its future and neither the people across the
way nor the English Canadians are going to come and tell us how
to vote in the next referendum on sovereignty.
When the Prime Minister is faulted for this, he who has been
involved in dirty dealings with Quebec since the beginning of
his political career, that little guy from Shawinagan, the
member for Saint-Maurice, he always comes back with the same
quote, which we have heard a good 40 times in the 6 years we
have been dealing with him: only the weak resort to insults.
I agree with him on that, and I would point out that if that is
so then he must be very weak indeed.
Do you know why? On five significant occasions during
his political career, this man insulted millions of Quebecers.
He insulted them all.
First, in 1980 Quebecers were told that to say no to the
referendum on sovereignty was to say yes to renewed federalism.
We found out later on what it really meant. It was a pack of
lies. This man was involved in this first fight against Quebec's
legitimate aspirations.
Then in 1981 there was the night of the long knives. Taking
advantage of the absence of Quebecers, especially Mr. Lévesque,
the current Prime Minister plotted against Quebec in the
kitchens of the Château Laurier Hotel together with
representatives of other provinces—it has been called the night
of the long knives—to isolate Quebec, to hurt it again. Already
they were talking about unilaterally patriating the
constitution. This was the second insult to Quebecers.
The third insult came in 1982 when the Canadian constitution was
indeed patriated in spite of the nearly unanimous opposition of
the national assembly. This was yet another insult to Quebecers.
In 1990 there was the failure of Meech Lake. The other day I
heard the Prime Minister say “I was not there”. Negotiations
were going on and this charming gentleman was standing in the
corridor talking on his cellphone to Sharon Carstairs, the then
leader of the opposition in the Manitoba legislature, who was
fighting tooth and nail against the Meech Lake accord.
A few weeks after the failure of Meech Lake, he embraced Clyde
Wells. I do not know if he embraced him for reasons other than
his fierce opposition to the Meech Lake accord and his crusade
against Quebecers. If so, he should tell us.
In 1997, during the referendum on sovereignty, he organized an
extraordinary love-in saying once again “Quebecers, you will be
recognized if you vote no to sovereignty”. What happened since
1997? They still spit on Quebec and people across the way still
work against Quebec. The same man is once again insulting
millions of Quebecers.
Finally, in December 1999, this month, the little guy from
Shawinigan found the worst insult possible by putting seven
million Quebecers under some form of custody, under mandatory
supervision, as if they were cheaters, dishonest people whose
enlightened choice of sovereignty was a crime.
How weak must the Prime Minister be to resort to such measures.
As the old saying goes: insults are the weak man's weapons.
Since the beginning of his political career he has constantly
insulted millions of Quebecers.
1615
Considering this bill in light of the way parliament
and the governor in council operate and thinking of the
influence enjoyed by the Prime Minister's Office and the Prime
Minister himself, we have to ask ourselves if this man is a
megalomaniac. Is it possible for such a man, under our current
political system, to have exceptional power and a veto on the
future of Quebecers, on the future of a whole nation?
It is the Prime Minister's office that decides.
This means that under this process, under this bill that sets so
many strict criteria for recognizing the result of a referendum
or the clarity of a question, it is the Prime Minister, the
little guy from Shawinigan, who will decide the future of seven
million Quebecers. This cannot be. I cannot believe that we have
reached that point in Canada, that we have practically become a
banana republic, that the destiny of a whole people will be
determined by one person.
Once again we have news for the Prime Minister. He may think
and do what he wants but he will never prevent Quebecers from
controlling their destiny, from choosing in a free and
democratic way. There is nothing more democratic than the
election and referendum process in Quebec. These people will not
decide for Quebecers.
There are rather interesting things, particularly in
international law. Among others, there is the 1975 Helsinki
charter signed by former Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau.
What does that charter say? It says that participating states,
those that signed the charter, including Canada:
By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination
of peoples, all peoples always have the right, in full freedom,
to determine, when and as they wish, their internal and external
political status, without external interference, and to pursue
as they wish their political, economic, social and cultural
development.
The participating States reaffirm the universal significance of
respect for and effective exercise of equal rights and
self-determination of peoples for the development of friendly
relations among themselves as among all States; they also recall
the importance of the elimination—
Canada signed that agreement and we are lucky enough to have not
only that charter but a whole series of international laws that
make it easier for people to achieve sovereignty. In Quebec, we
are also lucky to have 44 Bloc Quebecois members who, contrary
to the 74 federal Liberal members elected in 1982, will stand up
and fight against a government that has the audacity to deprive
Quebec of its freedom and to restrict its democratic spirit.
Mr. Paul Mercier (Terrebonne—Blainville, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in
his brilliant remarks, my colleague mentioned the 26 Liberal
members opposite who are about to pass an anti-Quebec bill.
In this prebudget context, does he think the estimates should
provide for their 780 pieces of silver, that is 30 for each one
of them?
Mr. Yvan Loubier: Yes, Mr. Speaker. As I said, it is unfortunate
that throughout the history of mankind some people have
knowingly collaborated with the conquerors against their own
people.
1620
We have the same situation right now in Canada: 26 Liberal
members from Quebec agree when the intergovernmental affairs
minister and the little guy, the very little guy from
Shawinigan, the Prime Minister, introduce a bill limiting the
freedom of choice of Quebecers and preventing them from going
through a normal democratic process that has been used many
times in the past.
Do members opposite think democracy is lacking in Quebec and
that Quebecers are flouting democracy? These 26 Liberal members
from Quebec seem to think so.
If this is not what they think, if they believe Quebec will
abide by the democratic process and that the national assembly
will ultimately be responsible for the referendum question and the
interpretation of the results, they will not support this bill.
The foreign affairs minister keeps repeating that he is working
very hard for Quebec. He yelled to members of the Bloc Quebecois
that we are exaggerating, that we do not speak the truth, that
Canada should have its say in the decision on Quebec's political
and constitutional status.
It is unfortunate that 26 Liberal members have joined forces
with the English speaking majority in Canada to deny their own
people the right to choose legitimately and democratically the
future of an independent Quebec.
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the hon. member for
Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot for his speech.
The Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs talks about clarity.
Is he not in fact imposing his vision of clarity, imposing his
question, and above all blocking Quebec's horizon in such a way
that we will have no other choice but to decide between the
status quo and a totally indefensible option, when it comes
right down to it?
Has he not decided in the end to put aside what all Quebecers
want, an option allowing them to become sovereign and to have a
modern relationship on this planet for tomorrow, an appropriate
relationship allowing Quebecers to make all the decisions
concerning themselves, to have their voice heard in the
community of nations and to have a correct relationship with
Canada, instead of the nasty climate the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs obstinately persists in creating with
his current attitude?
Mr. Yvan Loubier: Mr. Speaker, my colleague has been very
eloquent and has put the finger on the problem.
Indeed, yesterday the cat was let out of the bag. When the
Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs said that, whether the
question is clear or not, he does not want Quebecers to decide
democratically on sovereignty, what is the point of introducing
a bill?
It is not the question and its outcome that bother the
government, and particularly the little member for
Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, the Minister of Intergovernmental
Affairs. What bothers him is the content. What bothers him is
the possibility that Quebec might become a sovereign country.
Besides, that man has changed his mind.
Here is what the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs had to
say in 1994. He said that the 1995 referendum was sufficiently
clear.
Still in 1994, he added “Ottawa's insistence on using the term
separation in the question has no basis in law”.
The third thing he said, again in 1994, was “Ultimately,
the terms sovereignty, independence, separation and secession
are synonymous”.
Today he tells us “We will consider the clarity of the
question, the terms used, so that they are the real terms,
secession, the breakup of Canada”. If these are not
scare tactics, I do not know what is.
Let us be frank. This is what is going on on the other side of
the House, as we have seen and as Quebecers will see as we bring
all this out. Let them admit that they have just sold out
Quebec, that they are going to prevent it from using a
democratic process to attain its independence. Let them admit
it. That is the real purpose of this bill. This is the
beginning of the pre-referendum campaign and the scare-mongering.
They are telling Quebecers that they will not have the backing
of the law if they answer this question.
1625
What is even sadder, and we saw this recently, is that during
the 30-day period after they have forced the question out of the
national assembly, they will debate the clarity of the question
when Quebec is already fully launched into a referendum
campaign.
Yes, it is sad. We will be right in the middle of a democratic
process and these people will be imposing a process on us that
smacks of apartheid.
Mr. André Harvey (Chicoutimi, PC): Mr. Speaker, I would like to
take advantage of the rationality of our colleague, the member
for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot. I believe this bill was not introduced
for very noble reasons.
I would like to know his opinion on the following. Is it
possible that this bill was introduced for purely political
reasons?
The Prime Minister reads the opinion polls. He has seen the
outcome of provincial elections in the Atlantic region: three
Tory governments out of four. He sees the polls in Ontario. He
sees the relatively good showing of his long time enemy, Mr.
Clark, who is certainly doing better in the polls than one year
ago.
Would my colleague agree with my analysis, which, albeit
superficial, is logical? That strategy reminds me of the
declaration the Prime Minister made two weeks before the 1997
election, when he talked about 50% plus one. I say this for the
benefit of my Bloc Quebecois colleagues.
Unfortunately, at the time we lost several ridings to the Bloc
in Quebec. I suspect the Prime Minister is now using exactly
the same election-minded strategy and is thinking “I need at
least 40 Bloc members in Quebec and 60 Reform members in western
Canada so that we can squeeze through with 38 or 40% of the
vote”.
I have a feeling this bill was introduced for very practical
reasons and not for reasons relating to the referendum.
Mr. Yvan Loubier: My dear colleague from Chicoutimi is right.
Moreover, this has always been a basic fact about the career of
the Prime Minister of Canada. When the government starts to
drop in the polls, the best way to raise its popularity
quotient, in Canada in particular, is to dump on Quebec
and Quebecers. Heaping scorn on Quebecers is the right
approach. The more a Liberal member dumps on Quebecers the
higher the Liberals go in the polls.
I agree with my colleague. Probably he too looks at the polls
relating to the Bloc Quebecois members and the rise in
popularity of his leader, which has gone up constantly for the
past year and a half. This I think is what motivates him to get
tough with Quebec and to continue the dirty tricks he has always
been up to.
I have referred to the patriation of the constitution. He was
there.
The Prime Minister, that little little guy from Shawinagan, was
there. He is the one who cooked up that procedure one night at
the Chateau Laurier, a concerted effort by the federal
government and nine Canadian provinces to crush Quebec, to
marginalize it, to strong-arm it.
He was also, along with Mr. Trudeau, behind the unilateral
patriation of the constitution in 1982, despite the near
unanimity of the national assembly against it. Then there was
Meech, as I have said before. Though he says “I wasn't even
there for Meech”, that is not true. We were here. We walked
around. We saw the Prime Minister in a corridor with his cellphone,
and Sharon Carstairs, one of his buddies, was there
working against the accord.
How about Clyde Wells, the embrace—and I am not familiar with the
habits of the Prime Minister—but yes I agree with the hon.
member. This was electioneering. Dumping on the Quebec to
score better in the Canada-wide polls.
The Deputy Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member but
the time for questions and comments is up.
[English]
Mr. Werner Schmidt: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. In the interests of the short time we have left before
Christmas and the fact that a number of petitions have been given
to us for presentation to the House, I wonder if we could get
through the usual Routine Proceedings. I suggest that we present
petitions at this point.
It is my understanding that if we could get the unanimous consent
of the House, we could present some petitions. My hon. colleague
from Calgary Centre has a number of petitions to present and so
do I.
1630
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to proceed
with petitions at this time?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
An hon. member: No.
[Translation]
Mr. Roy Cullen (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Finance,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in a way, I thank the hon. member for
Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot for launching this very important debate on
the direction we want to give to the year 2000 budget.
[English]
I would not necessarily agree with the points he made in his
opening comments and there was some digression later in terms of
the clarity bill. But on the question of transfers, Canadians
are clear that Quebec gets its share of the federal transfers, in
fact more than 50% of the equalization payments. That is what
this House is about. That is what this debate is all about. That
is how democracy works.
It is my privilege and pleasure to lead off today's debate, a
debate addressing what will likely be one of the most important
budgets in modern Canadian history. This happy chore has been
given to me by the finance minister.
The finance minister is in Berlin chairing the inaugural meeting
of the G-20, a body dedicated to strengthening and stabilizing
the world's financial architecture. The minister has asked me to
express his thanks and appreciation to the hon. members of the
finance committee for their committed efforts in what was truly a
national odyssey to hear the views of Canadians and for the
quality of that work in synthesizing and reporting those views.
Today's debate is another important stage in the process of
prebudget consultation introduced by this government. It is a
process that many today take for granted. Let us remember what a
dramatic change it represents compared to earlier decades when
budgets seemed to be prepared in not so splendid isolation from
the public and the emphasis seemed to be on backroom bartering
rather than on public discussion and debate.
Many members of the House have had prebudget consultations and
town hall meetings in their ridings across Canada. I hosted a
prebudget consultation in my riding of Etobicoke North on October
21. A large number of my constituents came forward to present
their views on this very important budget. They told me that
they wanted a balanced approach. That was the opinion of the
constituents in my riding and I look forward to the debate on the
budget 2000 by members in the House of Commons.
To help set the stage for this debate, I remind all hon. members
of some of the important elements of our current economic and
fiscal performance. It is these elements that set the context in
terms of opportunities and also real limits for the 2000 budget.
As the minister reported to the committee in his fall economic
and fiscal update last month, our national economy is strong with
one of the best growth rates among the G-7 major industrialized
nations and a number one record for creating jobs.
[Translation]
These results are due in great part to the fact that we were
able to put our federal fiscal house in order. The time when we
ended up with a deficit and an increase in our public debt year
after year is over. For two years in a row now, we have had a
surplus, something we had not seen since 1951-1952, almost 50
years.
[English]
The government is committed to maintaining this record of fiscal
responsibility as the unyielding foundation for all policy
initiatives.
Looking ahead based on the average of forecasts by a group of
Canada's leading private sector economists, this record of annual
fiscal surpluses should grow from $5.5 billion in 2000-01 to $23
billion in 2004-05. This is a well deserved dividend that
Canadians have earned through their support of the tough fiscal
choices we had to make in bringing Canada's books back into
balance. Of course those are impressive numbers but we must never
let them tempt us into losing sight of the need for continued
financial probity and prudence.
1635
As the minister said to our committee, we live in a volatile
global economy. Offshore events can buffet us overnight, sharply
reducing future revenues from today's planning basis. That is
why the government is sticking with the advice of the leading
economists we consulted with and using real caution in our
planning projections. This includes deducting our yearly $3
billion contingency reserve and a significant prudence factor
before we arrived at those surplus estimates.
While the update does offer a five year forecast for discussion
and planning purposes, we should and we will continue to take
budget decisions only within a rolling two year time horizon.
This is something I hope hon. members will address in the debate
to come.
It was through near term and real term targets that we made a
reality of deficit elimination. That is how we can ensure that
the government does not commit long term financial resources
today for tax cuts for important national investments, popular as
these may be, at the risk of a return to punishing deficits in
years to come.
Hon. Jim Peterson: Never again.
Mr. Roy Cullen: Never again.
That being said, I am sure most hon. members will agree that
there are actions that must be taken, investments that should be
made to strengthen our economy and provide Canadians with the
prospect of better incomes, a higher quality of life and
increased security and opportunity.
The committee's report highlights some excellent suggestions,
but let me note that two of the commitments that this government
has already acted upon, debt relief and tax relief, are a
critical part of a context for the upcoming budget and for
today's debate. First, we will continue to reduce the debt load
on the economy and its taxpayers. Second, we will continue to
reduce taxes.
It is a fact that we have already made some headway on our
national debt.
[Translation]
The last two years, with the debt decreasing by some
$6.4 billion, we were able to save more than $300 million in
interest every year.
And there is more good news. We have actually paid down debt
previously borrowed in financial markets by almost $16.4
billion. These achievements in combination with sustained
economic growth also contributed to the reduction of the debt to
GDP ratio. This ratio assesses our debt according to the size of
our economy.
[English]
In 1995-96 that ratio peaked at 71.2%. In other words, our debt
was equal to nearly three-quarters of our entire yearly economic
output. For 1998-99 that ratio was down to 64.4%. This marks
the third consecutive annual decline in the debt to GDP ratio.
By the way, there is another important comparison that should be
highlighted. If one uses comparable accounting standards, our
federal fiscal turnaround, combined with the positive fiscal
performance of most Canadian provinces, means that on a total
government basis Canada has achieved the largest improvement in
its fiscal balance of all the G-7 nations since 1992.
Let me emphasize to all hon. members and all Canadians that such
fiscal improvements are not abstract accounting achievements.
Combined with our commitment to low inflation, they have
contributed directly to keeping interest rates down. Gone are
the days when Canadian rates were axiomatically higher than U.S.
rates. In fact our rates are generally equal to, if not lower
than, American rates.
But Canada's financial challenges are not over. We have to stay
on track and that includes getting our debt burden down further.
Five years ago 36 cents out of each federal revenue dollar went
to pay interest on the debt.
However because of our financial progress the portion of each
revenue dollar eaten up by interest charges is down to 27 cents.
That is progress, but it is still too high.
1640
This is money that could otherwise be used to cut taxes, or for
health care, or for investing in knowledge and innovation. For
this reason we are continuing with our debt repayment plan.
[Translation]
We will continue to include every year in the budget a $3
billion contingency reserve. This will ensure that the
government will be in a position to fulfil its obligations
toward Canadians without ending with a deficit because of some
unforeseen economic hardship. If the contingency reserve is not
needed it will be applied to the debt.
[English]
Paying down absolute debt is only part of our strategy. We will
continue to make important investments in strengthening our
economy, such as boosting our national research capability and
boosting knowledge, skills and training. The dynamic at work
here is clear and concrete. The combination of a shrinking debt
and a growing economy work together to make the burden of debt
fall faster. Just like a family with a mortgage, the more one
earns and the more one pays down, the lighter the load.
It is this consistent strategy of falling debt and a growing
economy that will help Canada and Canadians build a foundation
for success in the 21st century.
This takes me to the second firm commitment I want to highlight.
That is continued tax reduction. With the end of the era of
deficits and growing debt, our government has moved to cut taxes
for all Canadians. Quite simply, people have the right to expect
that each year we will bring down taxes. It is not a matter of
debate. Tax reduction is essential to secure strong and
sustained economic growth. We may debate the means and the pace,
but from the point of view of our government, reducing taxes is
not a debatable item.
What is more, we have taken some actions already. The actions
taken in the 1998 and 1999 federal budgets have removed 600,000
low income Canadians from the federal tax rolls. The combined
actions taken in the last three budgets mean that the personal
income tax relief for Canadians will total $7.5 billion in
1999-2000. That is about 10% of all personal income taxes. For
families with children, total personal income tax relief provided
in the last three budgets represents an average of 16% reduction
in their tax burden. That is families with children.
We are going to do much more. This process continued the day of
the minister's update presentation itself when we announced that
for the sixth year in a row, employment insurance premiums will
be reduced from $2.55 to $2.40 for each $100 of insurable
earnings starting this January 1. This means that employees and
employers will save a further $1.2 billion next year, bringing
total savings, compared to the rate that prevailed in 1994, to
$5.2 billion.
Looking beyond that, as the Speech from the Throne and the fall
update both emphasized, in the 2000 budget we will spell out a
multi-year plan to cut taxes further and we will explain how we
intend to carry it out. This plan will be based on a number of
key principles.
Our approach must be fair which means starting with those who
need it most: middle and low income earners, especially families
with children. We will focus initially on personal income taxes,
since that is where we are most out of line. We will also have to
ensure that Canada has an internationally competitive business
tax system. Finally, we will not finance tax relief with
borrowed money because that just means an inevitable return to
higher taxes in the future.
Suggestions on how best to implement further tax reduction and
by how much are important elements of the finance committee's
report.
1645
I know that the minister and his team are studying the report
very closely. I congratulate the chairman and all members of the
Standing Committee on Finance for such a comprehensive and
detailed report.
I know the minister will be very interested in the ideas and
criticisms that each and every hon. member can add in the House
today. I encourage my hon. colleagues from all parties to
provide their own positive, concrete suggestions.
I hope my few remarks have put some of these issues in some
context, but I am sure we will not agree on everything that
should go into the year 2000 budget. However, it is a process
that is respected and it is very worthwhile having the debate in
the House of Commons because budget 2000 will likely set the tone
and thrust for Canada's continuing growth and security in the new
millennium.
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order
38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight
at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for
Lethbridge, Trade; the hon. member for
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, CSIS; the hon. member for
Okanagan—Coquihalla, National Defence.
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the member's speech
and I am a little surprised that the Liberals do not realize
that ultimately there are two priorities when it comes to the
budget.
First, they must put some money back into the transfer payments
to the provinces to help them deal with their responsibilities
in the areas of education, health and social assistance. A
survey showed that 54% of Quebecers think this is the top
priority. The second choice got 17% or 18%.
Should this not be the first thing to consider when deciding how
to reinvest the federal government's surpluses? Another measure
urgently required is to really make the employment insurance
system an income supplement so as to put a stop to the
impoverishment being inflicted by the federal government on all
regions with seasonal industries, particularly in Quebec. That
would ensure that the income of someone who is employed 20, 22
or 23 weeks per year is not less than it was in 1994 before the
Liberals came to power.
Should those two measures not be taken expeditiously by the
federal government to try and correct the impoverishment the
Liberals have brought about through their budget measures and
decisions thereby strangling the provinces and the unemployed?
Mr. Roy Cullen: Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for his
question but I believe that that cuts in transfers are things
of the past because the minimum amount of the CHST has now been
increased to $12.5 billion, which means $1.8 billion more for
Quebec over five years. Moreover, $11.5 billion have already
been put into the CHST. This means $2.7 billion more for Quebec.
I could go on and on. Equalization gives Quebec $2.8 billion
more over five years, and Quebec now receives about half of the
money available in the equalization fund, or about $4.5 billion
per year.
[English]
In last year's budget, the government injected $11.5 billion
into the CHST for health care and Quebec was a recipient of that.
Whether the CHST should be augmented further is a very debatable
point, which is the purpose of this discussion.
With respect to the question around employment insurance,
Canadians understand and appreciate that the government had to
take some very decisive action on this. Would everybody in the
House agree that every measure we took was perfect? Would
everyone in the House agree that perhaps there are some
adjustments that need to be made? Perhaps.
That is why we are having this debate. However, to say that we
should fundamentally go back and re-open EI as it once was, I do
not think Canadians would support that.
1650
Mrs. Michelle Dockrill (Bras d'Or—Cape Breton, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, when I listened to the member from the government side
talk about how prosperous Canada is, I found myself sitting here
trying to figure out if he and I both live in the same country.
If I take the member at his words with respect to how well we
are doing in Canada, could he explain why we have seen a steady
increase in child poverty over the last 10 years? There will be
1.5 million Canadian kids going to bed hungry tonight as we
speak. We have seen thousands of protesters on the Hill with
respect to the homeless. Thirty-six per cent of the people who
are unemployed in the country do not qualify for unemployment. We
have students carrying high debt loads by trying to access higher
education. We have people on stretchers in emergency rooms.
Can he explain to me how this is happening in such a prosperous
country?
Mr. Roy Cullen: Mr. Speaker, the member forgets that
during the term of this government unemployment has declined. It
is a generational switch. We are down to 6.9% and we will take
it down further.
The member opposite talks about child poverty. The latest data
shows that the incidence of children living in low income
families declined from 21.1% in 1996 to 19.8% in 1997. Is that
good enough? Probably not. As a result, 100,000 fewer children
are living in families with low incomes.
However, a real problem remains and there is room for action.
This government has acted on this with the child benefit program,
with a huge commitment of approximately $7 billion annually once
it is fully in place.
While the member talks about this doom and gloom scenario, we
should recognize the huge progress that we have made and the
progress we will make in the future. With a growing and strong
economy, we will be able to devote more resources to the issues
that the member is referring to. If we had not taken the
measures that were needed to bring the deficit under control, we
would not be having this debate today. We would still be
reducing the deficit. We have achieved that and we now have to
have a good debate on what to do with the surpluses.
Mr. Jean Dubé (Madawaska—Restigouche, PC): Mr. Speaker,
I listened carefully to the answer by the hon. member. If I
clearly understood his response to the question from the
opposition, the government is not ready to look at employment
insurance and the effect that employment insurance has had on
many Canadians in Canada. Am I clear on that?
Could the member also comment on whether the government would be
in the position it is today if it was not for free trade, which
has brought export up from $80 billion to $280 billion? As well,
would the government be in this position if it was not for the
GST, which this government said it would scrap in the last
election? This year the GST brought $24 billion into the federal
coffers. Does the member think that the government would be in
that position today if it was not for these measures which were
brought in by the Conservative government?
Mr. Roy Cullen: Mr. Speaker, if the member checks the
blues he will learn that what I actually said about EI was that
no one on the government side or any member in the House would
say that everything is perfect with EI.
I also said that a very strong point would have to be made to
cause the government to go back to the days before we reinvented
EI. To say that there are not some areas that perhaps need some
fine tuning is one thing, but I do not think we really want to go
back to the days when we had a situation where EI was causing
some fiscal pressures and problems for the government and for all
Canadians.
I acknowledge that with the international liberalization of
trade, Canada as a major exporting nation has benefited from
that. That is very much part of the economic success that we are
now experiencing.
1655
I will highlight some measures that this government can take
some credit for, such as low interest rates, which is often
forgotten in the debate. Because of the low interest rates
today, the average family with a $100,000 mortgage save something
like $3,000 a year.
Business investment has much improved with low interest rates. I
know this from my days in the private sector where decisions were
being made to invest in the United States because of the cost of
capital differential. That has now been removed.
As well, the monetary policy of the Bank of Canada has created a
situation where inflation is being moderated. That has also
contributed to the economic success of Canada and has created a
situation in the country where Canadians are feeling more
confident today than they have ever been and certainly more
confident than they were in the days of the Tory regime.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it
is a pleasure to rise and speak on what has become, with very
short notice, the prebudget debate this afternoon. Having said
that, I am pleased to stand and represent not only my
constituents but also my party on this issue.
The first concern I have with the majority report that really
reflects the position of the government members on the finance
committee is that I feel that some of the recommendations in it
are completely insincere. I want to expand on that.
The first point is that there were headlines after this report
was leaked. Sadly, it was leaked, as it always is, and as we
have seen with so many different committees over the last few
years. The headlines indicated that the majority report was
calling for about $46 billion in tax relief.
Representing a party that has long called for major tax relief
in the country, I certainly do not object to the majority report
of the finance committee calling for big tax relief. We favour
that completely. We believe that one of the greatest errors the
government has ever made was to continue to raise taxes. It has
hurt Canadian taxpayers tremendously.
However, we doubt the sincerity of that recommendation. The
reason we doubt the sincerity of the recommendation is that a few
paragraphs into the report we see the government claim that it
wants to continue to adhere to the 50:50 promise.
For people who do not know what the 50:50 promise is, let me
explain. In the 1997 election, the government made a promise
that surpluses that ran up over the next several years would be
divided; about 50% to new program spending and the remaining 50%
to a combination of tax relief and debt reduction.
The government laid out the numbers in the fiscal and economic
update in November when the finance minister told Canadians that
the total surplus, best case scenario, would be $95 billion, and
that the amount we could count on to use for things like spending
and tax relief would be $67 billion. In that situation, it means
that the finance committee report was calling to spend $46
billion of that on tax relief, leaving very little for its huge
commitment to spending increases.
This is obviously a bold attempt by the government members to
have their cake and eat it too. They want to be the champions of
tax relief saying “Oh, we believe in tax relief, but on the
other hand, we believe in raising spending dramatically. We want
to see 50% of the surplus devoted to new spending”. They also
care very much about the debt. They want to see debt repayment
become a huge priority as well. They cannot have all of these
things at the same time, but that is exactly what this report
attempts to do.
So we very much doubt the sincerity of government members when
they claim that this is what they want to do. These two things
are simply incompatible. They contradict one another. We think
it reflects very poorly on the whole report. We think it
undermines the credibility of the whole report.
Starting from that very flawed approach, we think that the
report, while having some merit in some areas, is also found
lacking in many others, but the most glaring area is really the
one I just mentioned.
1700
I want to expand on that for a moment. This is a pattern that
we see coming forward from the Liberal government. On one hand
it promises that it wants to have tax relief. It promises that
will come at some point in the future, but its rhetoric and its
record show something completely different.
When we heard the fiscal and economic update from the finance
minister at the beginning of November he talked ad nauseam about
why we need to have lower taxes in Canada today. However we find
out through the government's actions that it is raising taxes.
The best example is the millennium tax hike which will occur
just two short weeks from today on January 1. Canadians will
wake up from the big millennium party with a big tax headache
because on January 1 in the new millennium, the year 2000, they
will see all kinds of tax increases.
Let me recount some of them for the House. We will see Canada
pension plan taxes go up as part of the largest tax increase in
Canadian history. It is a double burden for the self-employed
because they have to pay both halves of that huge 73% hike in
Canada pension plan taxes. The government is saying that taxes
are going down and that it wants taxes to go down, but at every
opportunity it raises taxes.
The second example is how it is increasing personal income
taxes. The government never misses an opportunity to say that it
would never raise the tax rate. The government is being
completely honest when it says that, but it is being somewhat
deceptive when it alludes to only the tax rate because the
overall tax burden will go up because of bracket creep.
Ever since 1986 when we deindexed the tax system in Canada under
the previous Conservative government we have seen taxes increased
automatically for hundreds of thousands of Canadians every year,
without having a vote in this place to decide whether or not we
should have an increase in taxes. It is an automatic tax
increase. The government benefits from that because it brings in
about $1 billion a year in new revenue.
I want to touch for a moment on the rhetoric of the government
when it comes to how concerned it is about people on the low end
of the income scale. Interestingly enough, people on the
government side have made a career of telling the public how much
they care about people who are struggling to get by, the people
who have fallen through the cracks. Yet those people who have
fallen through the cracks, the people on the low end of the
income scale, are hurt more than anybody else in the tax system
because of bracket creep.
It is interesting to note that every year 85,000 new taxpayers
join the tax rolls because of bracket creep. They do not have
any more purchasing power. They do not necessarily get a raise
but they are dragged on to the tax rolls for the first time.
Why is that? It is because with every passing year not only are
the tax brackets not indexed but also because the exemptions are
not indexed. People end up losing the value of the exemptions
which become less and less with every passing year due to
inflation, due to the increase in the cost of living. These
people are dragged unwillingly and unwittingly on to the tax
rolls and start to pay taxes for the first time.
As the Liberals have been in power for the last six years they
have increased revenue from people on the low end of the income
scale, and indeed from all Canadians, by billions and billions
and billions of dollars. This is a big tax increase that the
Liberal government has pushed through and presides over. We
never discuss it and never have a vote on it in the House of
Commons, but nevertheless Canadians are much the poorer for it.
That is one way in which the government continues to raise taxes.
On January 1 there will be another tax increase. This is
another way that the government raises more revenue and people
are less better off, without having a vote in the House of
Commons.
1705
Let me give one more example, for instance, the small business
exemption. Small businesses in Canada have an exemption of
$200,000 below which they pay one rate of tax and above which
they pay another rate of tax. That will also be eroded by
inflation this year, so small businesses will see their taxes
rise again through the big hike in Canada pension plan taxes and
through the erosion of the exemption for small business. That is
another way.
There are other examples which I could go into. My point is
simply that the government on one hand says it is concerned about
taxes and it is cutting taxes, but at every opportunity it raises
taxes. That is what we will see on January 1. Its say one thing
but does something completely different whenever it has a chance.
How does this hurt Canadian families, Canadian entrepreneurs and
Canadian investors? There are different ways in which it has
hurt them. The best way to bring that home, as we have tried to
do over the last several weeks, is to recount the stories of many
Canadians who sent us their paystubs to illustrate to the finance
minister and to the government in the clearest possible way what
happens to people's incomes when taxes are as high as they are.
Let me remind members of an issue I brought to the floor of the
House a few weeks ago. I had a teacher from my riding send her
paystub which showed that she had received a $1,000 raise, but by
the time the taxman got done with it, $81 of the $83 a month
raise was gobbled up.
I know it sounds incredible, Mr. Speaker, and you look
incredulous, but I can tell you we saw the paystub. We shared it
with the media. We had Annalora Horch, the teacher from Medicine
Hat, go to the bookkeeper of the school board and ask what was
happening. The bookkeeper said that it simply reflected the tax
tables for Alberta issued by Revenue Canada as of July 1, 1999.
They were following exactly what the government told them they
had to do. The result is that a $1,000 raise becomes a $24
raise, thanks to the tax increases of the government. We think
that is terrible.
The member for Edmonton North raised the issue of Doreen, a
worker from Winnipeg. Doreen sent us her paystub, her statutory
holiday paystub. She had received statutory holiday pay of $53,
which is a small amount, but she was really concerned that $30 or
60% of that $53 went to pay taxes. I think that is ridiculous. I
remember at the time the finance minister sort of mocked this. It
is a small amount of money, I will agree, but every dollar is
precious to people who are hard pressed and paying the highest
taxes they have ever paid in Canadian history.
It is ridiculous that on the one hand we have the government
saying it wants to reduce taxes but on the other hand we see
taxes mounting ever upward.
I want to raise the instance of Andy. Andy is a mechanic in my
riding. He works at Evergreen Implements in Brooks. He works in
the town where I live. He has been a mechanic there for 27
years. He sent us his Christmas bonus paystub which showed that
out of his bonus the finance minister got 42%.
Andy, Doreen and Annalora are the ones who are putting in the
extra hours. They are the ones who are working their hearts and
guts out for their families. They take all the risks. They do
all the work, but who gets half the bonus? Who gets half the
statutory holiday pay? Who gets half the Christmas pay? It is
the finance minister.
If that is not the biggest destroyer of incentive I have ever
seen, I do not know what is. It is ridiculous that to burden our
people the way they are in Canada. They should be rewarded for
hard work, productivity and entrepreneurship but sadly they are
punished.
We must remember that taxing something effectively means that we
get less of it. A tax is a price. When a tax is placed on
something we get less of it. The higher jobs are taxed, the
fewer jobs we get. We see that with every passing year as Canada
pension plan taxes go up, or when employment insurance premiums
do not go down nearly as much as they should.
1710
I remind the House that the government is still raiding or
confiscating $7 billion a year of employer and employee premiums
that do not go to pay more benefits and therefore should come
back to employers and employees in the form of lower premiums.
The government continues to raid that and as a result we see the
taxes on jobs being far too high.
When we have high income taxes we have a high price placed on
productivity and work. There is no incentive to work overtime
any more. We wonder why we languish when it comes to
productivity. The reason is that we pay a very high penalty when
we work hard in Canada today.
What about entrepreneurship? There are myriad ways that the
government punishes entrepreneurs. I have recounted some but I
will go into that in a bit more detail. Before 1971 in Canada we
did not have a tax on capital gains. Since that time we have an
extraordinarily high tax on capital gains. The result is that we
put a high price, a penalty really, on the great crime of
investing in our economy.
One thing that has distinguished Canadians over the years is
that people have been risk takers. We have been individualists
to some degree. That may shock some people in the Chamber, but
we have been rugged individualists. We have said that we wanted
to create businesses, to start something that we could run
ourselves and be our own bosses. As a result of the high capital
capital gains taxes in Canada today, it is very difficult to
accumulate capital to the point where we can start a business.
The result is that many people leave the country.
The best example is what is going on right now in the high tech
industry where we see all kinds of people who are trying to start
businesses moving to the United States and other countries around
the world. That is shameful.
Not only is it a shame to lose these people because of the
economic impact, but we see families splitting up, families
leaving the great country of Canada to go elsewhere. That is
disgraceful. It is very disappointing to see the government be
so sanguine about it, especially the Prime Minister who says “If
you don't like our high taxes then just go to the United
States”. I think that is ridiculous.
We see it in other ways, even in consumption. The more
consumption is taxed, the less consumption we have. That is
rather obvious. For retailers in Canada that is a serious issue.
Not long ago I spoke to Peter Woolford, head of the Retail
Council of Canada. Mr. Woolford pointed out in testimony to a
Reform Party committee that the domestic economy in Canada had
never really recovered from the recession of the early 1990s. One
reason for that is the high taxes on consumption. We see this at
the provincial level and at the federal level. Part of the
reason is that people have less disposable income and therefore
cannot purchase in the first place.
Whenever we have these taxes we have what economists call a tax
wedge, a difference between what consumers are willing to pay and
what the seller is willing to sell for. The tax often serves as
the wedge so no deal is struck between the two. The result is
that a sale is not made. We need to make sales. We need to keep
the economy moving for the economy to grow, to create wealth,
prosperity, jobs, opportunity and hope, something for which
Canada was known during the first 100 years of its existence but
too often is no longer known for.
These are all prices that are placed on very productive
behaviour. Now we in Canada bear the fruit of that in the form
of a brain drain and an unemployment rate that is still far too
high. The unemployment rate is about 60% higher than it is in
the United States. It is certainly 60% higher or perhaps higher
in relation to the historical level of employment in Canada. That
is a huge concern. Government members take some comfort in an
unemployment rate of about 7%, but to the unemployed it is not
very much fun at all.
There are other ways in which the government punishes people
through the tax system. In 1995 when the finance minister
undertook a number of changes he asked that Revenue Canada hire a
whole bunch of new auditors.
The impact has been terrifying for people who are in the sad
position of having these people visit their businesses.
Let me cite an example.
1715
One accountant in my hometown, Hugh Bevan, writes to me often
about something that is so bizarre, but it makes sense because it
is about government. If a farmer or a rancher buys a half-tonne
truck or a three-quarter tonne truck with an extended cab, a log
has to be kept indicating everywhere the truck travels. The
reason is because somebody might be in the back of the truck who
is not actually travelling on official business. This results in
farmers and ranchers being forced to keep a log. With all of
these compliance costs, people try to cheat the system and get
around these things in various and sundry ways.
This is not productive. Instead of trying to wring every cent
out of Canadians' pockets, when will the government make a solid
commitment to cutting taxes, not some airy-fairy commitment that
is contradicted in the document itself, such as we see in this
finance committee report?
Canadians want lower taxes. Fairness and justice demands it.
It is time the government quit talking about lowering taxes and
started doing it instead of giving us tax increases like we will
see on January 1.
Let us end this Liberal rhetoric. We want to see lower taxes in
Canada starting today. Therefore, I would move that the motion be
amended by deleting all the words after “That” and substituting
the following therefor: “the first report of the Standing
Committee on Finance, presented on Friday, December 10, 1999, be
now concurred in, but that it be recommitted to the Standing
Committee on Finance with instruction that they amend the same,
so as to recommend that the government re-index the income tax
system to inflation by immediately eliminating bracket creep”.
The Deputy Speaker: The Chair had grave reservations when
the hon. member read his motion. He left out a word that I see
is in the printed version, and that is that the report be “not”
now concurred in. The member said “concurred in”. Had that
been his motion, it would have been out of order. But I see
“not” in the printed version and I assume that he adopts
that as what he intended to read.
Hon. Jim Peterson: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a
point of order. I feel certain that the member's heart was
telling him that he wanted to concur in this report.
The Deputy Speaker: We are not going to get into that
debate. If the hon. member says the word “not” is in his
motion, I will put the motion to the House:
That the motion be amended by deleting all the words after
“That” and substituting the following therefor: “the first
report of the Standing Committee on Finance, presented on Friday,
December 10, 1999, be not now concurred in, but that it be
recommitted to the Standing Committee on Finance with instruction
that they amend the same, so as to recommend that the government
re-index the income tax system to inflation by immediately
eliminating bracket creep”.
The question therefore is on the amendment.
Mr. Maurizio Bevilacqua (Vaughan—King—Aurora, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I would like to publicly thank the member for
Medicine Hat for his work as a member of the finance committee.
As the chair of that committee I certainly appreciate his
efforts.
1720
On the issue of tax relief, I draw to the attention of the House
that the minority report tabled by the Reform Party states:
“Outside of partnership and ideological differences, the need
for tax relief and tax reform is very real. The official
opposition has called for major tax relief. We will outline the
size of our proposed tax relief in our January report”.
I draw to the attention of the House the tax package that the
House of Commons committee tabled. It is very important to
understand its major components. I cite the fact that the
finance committee would like the government to adopt the
following plan over the next five years. First, to increase the
basic and spousal amounts by 15%, which would mean that the basic
personal amounts for individuals would rise to $8,200. This
measure would take 500,000 Canadians off the tax rolls. It would
lower the number of people on welfare and increase attachment to
the workforce.
Second, we want to reduce the middle tax rate by three
percentage points to 23%. This is in large part because
hard-working, middle class Canadians worked so hard to defeat the
deficit and give the Canadian government a surplus that they need
to be rewarded.
Mr. Speaker, I will not cite the entire passage because you are
signalling me to stop.
I want the hon. member for Medicine Hat to tell Canadians
whether the figure in the Reform package will be over the $46
billion in tax cuts announced by the finance committee.
Mr. Monte Solberg: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate my friend's
comments. We think the finance committee report is a modest
start toward tax relief. My friend does not have to convince me
of the need for tax relief. Reformers have championed the idea
for many years. We have been standing alone for tax relief for
several years.
My friend does not have to convince us, but he certainly has to
convince his friends in the Liberal Party that they need to get
onboard and advocate tax relief. If he did that, they would not
retain that commitment to the 50:50 spending promise, which can
only mean billions upon billions of dollars in new spending,
which is completely at odds with what he himself advocates in the
form of tax relief.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to the member's
speech and particularly to his motion in amendment. I have a
short question for him.
He mentioned the have nots? Is the worst failure of the Liberal
government, which has been in power since 1994, not to have
contributed to the systematic impoverishment of the people who
are already hurting in our society because of the employment
insurance program and the cuts in the transfer payments?
The economy is doing well and that the unemployment rate is
declining, yet we see increasing poverty, largely because of the
government.
Is the federal government not to be blamed for this terrible
situation where a country whose collective wealth is sizeable
cannot distribute it in a way that would benefit everybody?
[English]
Mr. Monte Solberg: Mr. Speaker, I thank my friend for his
question. The Liberal government has contributed to the
impoverishment of Canadians, but by a different means than my
friend suggests. High taxes have caused many people to be in a
situation where they cannot hire the number of people they would
like to hire and therefore people without skills, traditionally
people who are at the bottom of the socioeconomic scale, cannot
benefit.
1725
We see it through bracket creep, where people at the lowest end
of the income scale are the ones who are punished the most by
this insidious tax that passes every year without a vote in the
House of Commons. We see it also through the homeless situation,
where because of high taxes and excessive regulation the stock of
rental housing has not increased. That hurts the homeless people
immeasurably.
There are many ways that the Liberal government has hurt people
on the low end of the income scale and I have recounted them.
Mr. Richard M. Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I congratulate my colleague from Medicine
Hat for his excellent speech in the prebudget debate.
If he had more time for his speech he would have taken very
great care to point out the examples of the provinces of Ontario
and Alberta, which recognize the stimulation to the economy that
tax relief brings, which has resulted in booming economies in
both of those provinces.
Could my colleague enlighten particularly the Liberals, who
obviously do not understand the real economic benefits of
reducing taxes?
Mr. Monte Solberg: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that very
thoughtful question from my friend.
What has happened in Alberta and Ontario since those governments
have taken charge is that we have seen a reduction in taxes, a
reduction in debt and ultimately a huge increase in the number of
people working in those provinces. What that has meant, under
the governments of Mike Harris and Ralph Klein, is that hundreds
of thousands of people are being brought into the workforce, some
of them for the first time. They are given skills, experience,
contacts and ultimately a wage. As a result of all those people
working more money pours into the coffers.
What has happened as a result of that? More money is going into
health care in both Alberta and Ontario than has ever gone into
health care in those provinces, thanks to the provincial
governments. On the other hand, we have the Liberal federal
government, the supposed defender of medicare, cutting the life
out of medicare, cutting ultimately $21 billion out of medicare.
We can thank Mike Harris and Ralph Klein for helping health care
recover at the provincial level. Thank goodness for them, voices
of sanity in this country.
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member for Bruce—Grey on a
brief question.
Mr. Ovid L. Jackson (Bruce—Grey, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
colleague from Medicine Hat speaks a lot of rhetoric. Members of
the opposition are telling us to spend a lot of money. They keep
comparing us to the United States.
In global trade the United States has 47% of the market share,
the Japanese 17%, the Europeans 27% and we have about 20%. The
American budget represents trillions of dollars. We have $106
billion to spend. This government has done a great job with the
budget. When it came in there was a $42 billion deficit.
I wish Reform members would tell their constituents, Hugh,
Andrew and Dorothy, that we have the best country in the world in
which to live.
Since the government has come into power it has cut taxes over
the last number years, and they have gone beyond bracket creep.
The tax cuts provided over the last—
The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I indicated to the
hon. member that his comment and question would have to be very
brief. I want him to draw his remarks to a quick conclusion
because I have to give the hon. member for Medicine Hat time to
respond.
Mr. Ovid L. Jackson: Where would the member find the
money he is asking for farmers and the money he is asking for the
RCMP? We have a great country with a great social program. That
is why we are the best in the world. Where would he find all
this money? Would he cut jobs?
Mr. Monte Solberg: Mr. Speaker, we have the greatest
country in the world, but no thanks to this Liberal government
which transferred a $42 billion deficit on to the backs of
taxpayers. That is irresponsible. That is not leadership; that
is cowardice. We see it from this government every day.
Canadians, frankly, are sick of it. They will not take it much
longer. That is why the government is on its way out.
1730
Mr. Dan McTeague: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I was wondering if it might be possible to receive this
evening the approval of the House on a bill that has been before
the House on a private members' issue, Bill C-202, dealing with
high speed chases.
I realize this is one of the last few sittings that we have.
Under the circumstances, given that there may be some people who
will actually be injured or die, I am looking for the unanimous
consent of the House that Bill C-202 be reported, given third
reading and presented to the Senate.
The Deputy Speaker: I gather the hon. member is asking
that the bill be deemed passed in effect. Is there unanimous
consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Deputy Speaker: It being 5.30 p.m., the House will proceed
to the consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on
today's order paper.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[English]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP) moved:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should take
immediate action to restore Employment Insurance benefits to
seasonal workers.
Mr. Richard M. Harris: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I am going back to my riding tomorrow morning. Before I
leave I would like to request that, because it is the Christmas
season, perhaps the Bloc members and Liberal members would want
to put their family feud to rest just for a few days and enjoy
Christmas. I am sure they would be able to enjoy it far better
if they were not worried about this little family tiff they are
having.
The Deputy Speaker: I do not know what the point of the
hon. member's intervention was but it was not a point of order.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to rise today to
present and debate Motion No. 222 on seasonal workers and the
employment insurance.
The motion reads as follows:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should take
immediate action to restore Employment Insurance benefits to
seasonal workers.
The debate on this votable motion is an opportunity for my
colleagues and myself to thoroughly look into the issue of
seasonal work and try to find short, medium and long term
solutions.
I introduced this motion in order to demystify seasonal work.
People who work in seasonal industries are often called seasonal
workers. We often forget that they are not seasonal workers;
their jobs are seasonal.
The main reason I wanted to introduce this motion is the recent
changes to the employment insurance plan. Through this debate, I
want to highlight the negative impact of these changes on the
lives of people who work in seasonal industries and of their
families.
I want to highlight the important contribution of these workers
to our country and our economy. But most of all, I want to
engage my colleagues in an exchange in order to develop
solutions that will certainly include a proposal to reform the
employment insurance, but also proposals to diversify our
country's seasonal economy.
First, it must be mentioned that seasonal work is very important
for the Canadian economy. It accounts for one million direct jobs
and contributes to the creation of thousands of others. A number
of industries are seasonal by nature. A case in point are the
industries which are weather-dependent such as fishing, logging,
agriculture, mining, construction and tourism. There are other
industries such as the automotive industry, education, and
cultural industries.
Seasonal industries are an important variable in Canada's
balance of payments. Net exportations of agricultural products,
seafood, energy and mainly wood products are the main elements in
Canada's balance of trade.
1735
The tourism industry is the 12th largest economic sector.
In 1995, shipments by the construction industry were estimated
at $22.8 billion. That year, the building materials industry
accounted for about 6% of the gross domestic product from
manufacturing and it provided direct jobs to nearly 150,000
people across Canada.
In 1996, the forestry sector contributed $20 billion to the
Canadian economy. Activities in this sector accounted for 2.9%
of the GDP. In 1997, national forestry exports were estimated at
$38.9 billion.
Moreover, in 1997, the forestry sector provided 365,000 direct
jobs.
As for the commercial fishery on the Atlantic and Pacific
coasts, it was valued at $1.6 billion in 1997. Fisherman from the
Atlantic provinces are responsible for 74% of that amount.
Looking at these statistics, it is obvious that seasonal
industries are important to our economy throughout the country.
All these sectors make an important contribution not only to our
economy but also to our quality of life.
Part time university professors contribute to the education of
our young people but their work often depends on university
semesters.
Who does not appreciate a nice lobster, especially here in
Ottawa? We often tend to forget that before reaching our plate
lobster had to be harvested by a fisherman and packed by a
plant worker to be shipped to Ottawa.
Tourism is another example. A canoe rental business can hardly
find clients in the middle of winter when rivers are frozen.
Therefore, it provides work to its employees only 10 or 12 weeks
out of the year, during the summer months.
[English]
Seasonal jobs are dispersed throughout Canadian industries.
Their contribution to the Canadian economy goes far beyond the
activity that is confined directly to the seasonal jobs
themselves.
In the forestry sector for example, the harvesting of trees
leads to primary sector activity in sawmills, pulp and paper, and
plywood and panel board plants. Secondary manufacturing includes
planing mills, engineered wood products, manufacturing of paper
or cardboard products, wood re-manufacturing, prefab homes and
wood doors and windows.
Seasonal activity in forestry generates year round activity in
many more sectors.
[Translation]
In 1995, a working committee was set up to examine the issue of
seasonal work and employment insurance. Its report contains
findings that in my opinion are still valid today.
First, it draws attention to the fact that what is seasonal is
not the workers but the jobs. Second, the committee found that
the contribution of seasonal labour to the Canadian economy was
largely ignored.
Furthermore, it noted that a negative attitude toward seasonal
workers was emerging and that these workers were considered
responsible for the temporary nature of their jobs.
Finally, it warned the Liberal government of the day that any
change to employment insurance would disproportionately affect
seasonal workers.
The government had in its possession a document that said what
exactly the impact would be on seasonal workers but it chose to
go ahead anyway.
What is the situation today? The eligibility criteria are too
high and prevent many seasonal workers from receiving employment
insurance benefits.
In addition, the government decided to punish workers who
frequently claim employment insurance by making them subject to
the intensity rule.
The committee was right to say that the government had a
negative attitude toward seasonal workers.
Instead of attacking seasonal workers, the employment insurance
reform should have taken into account their particular
conditions and created a system reflecting the reality of the
labour market.
1740
[English]
Seasonal work is a subject of special concern because those
engaged in seasonal work have fewer alternatives than other
workers and are therefore more dependent on EI. They cannot fish
when the bait is frozen or cut trees in the spring thaw when
roads turn to mud. Very often, workers in seasonal industries
live in remote areas of the country where the only work is
seasonal and things freeze up in the winter.
[Translation]
The working group has also predicted that the EI reform would
have a negative impact on women. In many cases, women who work
in fish plants are unable to meet the number of hours of work
requirement to qualify for EI.
With the EI reform, the number of hours required to qualify has
doubled in certain areas. Besides, the 910 hours required from
newcomers on the labour market or from workers who have been
away from the labour market for a time result in the exclusion
of many women and young people.
This 910 hour requirement penalizes women who have decided to
stay home to raise their children during their formative years.
When they go back to work and the seasonal work ends, they do
not have any income because they cannot meet that 910 hour
requirement.
Why did the government choose to make those changes if it knew
what the impact on women would be? Perhaps because it wanted to
use the surplus accumulated in the EI fund thanks to all those
restrictions to reduce the deficit and the debt.
In the last few weeks, we have talked about the rise in the
number of children living in poverty. It is not hard to realize
that the EI cuts have deprived mothers and fathers of benefits,
and that their families suffer because of that.
Since many poor families are headed by single mothers, the fact
that women do not qualify for EI has contributed directly to the
increase in child poverty. The saddest thing of all is that
this negative impact was very likely intentional
The EI reform has had a negative impact on seasonal workers.
This impact was predicted and can be observed today.
It is time to admit that errors were made. It is time to make
changes so that seasonal workers can again qualify for EI
premiums.
But the government must not stop there. I am often accused of
suggesting EI as the solution to all problems. That it not
true. Really.
What must be remembered is that the EI program is there to help
workers who have, through no fault of their own, lost their job.
It is a temporary measure to help during the transitional
period, but this government is forgetting that this temporary
measure is necessary for both workers and for the economy. When
workers are denied EI premiums, small and medium size businesses
suffer too.
Even the Liberals agreed with us. In 1993, when the Prime
Minister was the leader of the opposition, he said:
By reducing benefits and further penalizing those who leave
their jobs voluntarily, the government shows very little concern
for the victims of the economic crisis. Instead of getting to
the heart of the problem, it goes after the unemployed.
What happened to our Prime Minister? Perhaps the same thing
that happened to the red book, the GST and all the rest.
The Prime Minister went on to say:
Is it not ironic that when he came to power our Prime Minister
did exactly what he spoke out against? He went after unemployed
workers and the result was very disturbing.
1745
The Prime Minister was not the only one to oppose relentlessly
the proposed changes to employment insurance. On July 31, 1989,
my predecessor, Doug Young, said that the taxpayers of New
Brunswick should vigorously oppose these changes, which would
have serious consequences on the region.
I am prepared to give credit to the Liberals. They understood
the situation before taking office in 1993. They knew that
employment insurance was an important program that was part and
parcel of the social fabric of our country.
I even believe that they know now that they are wrong.
But the employment insurance fund is accumulating a surplus of
$7 billion every year and they do not want to give up what this
surplus brings them. As I said before and continue to say,
workers are the victims in this case and this is unacceptable.
My hon. colleagues opposite sometimes point out to me that
workers are abusing the employment insurance program. But the
workers are not the ones dependent on the employment insurance
system, the Minister of Finance is. He cannot do without it and
he relies on it.
But to talk about employment insurance is not good enough. The
problem with seasonal industries is that we do not think in the
long term about the diversification of the economies dependent
on these industries.
Seasonal work is found mainly in rural areas where natural
resource development is the main activity.
It is not that people do not want to work. It is a
situation where once their working season comes to an end, be it
in forestry, the tourist industry, fishing or construction,
there is no other work to be had.
Thus, apart from giving them access to the EI program, we must
also invest to ensure economic diversification.
Too often these communities harvest the resource. For example,
in communities like Caraquet, Shippagan, Lamèque, Bouctouche and
Cap Pelé in New Brunswick, fish is caught and then sent to Japan
for processing.
Why not do the processing at home? Why should we not do
secondary and tertiary processing? Why do we not develop
aquaculture, which could represent the future of fisheries?
However to develop such industries, we need a long term vision
that builds on the experience and the know-how of all the
players, investors, workers, community groups and elected
officials, whatever their political affiliation.
For too long now Atlantic Canada has suffered because of
decisions based on political motives rather than on the best
interest of the communities. This has to change. We cannot go on
like this.
The Liberals will have to stop giving away money only to their
friends and start looking at the real economy and the way to
develop it. What they are doing is the way things were done by
politicians a century ago. It has to change.
We have to work together to change things. We cannot go on like
this. We need a long-term vision on how to develop the economy of
our country and of our rural areas. As long as we do not do it,
we will be missing the boat. We will be missing the boat and a
great opportunity. We have to recognize the difference between
rural Canada and urban areas.
We need to invest in our infrastructures so that our rural
communities can become as competitive as our urban centres.
Again, in my province of New-Brunswick, the natural gas pipeline
runs from Sable Island to the south, but does not go to the
north. How do you expect northern New-Brunswick to compete with
the south when the infrastructures serving these two areas are
not the same?
Besides investing in the infrastructures, we have to invest in
people. We have to give them some training. Not just any kind of
training, but training in the industries that are liable to
develop in their region.
1750
We have to try to improve access to training. In order to
diversify the economy, we need to provide the workers with the
support they need to get jobs in the new industries.
[English]
The working group, in looking at the seasonal worker and
employment insurance, said:
What is lacking in many areas dependent on seasonal work is the
infrastructure to make diversification possible, for example:
Core infrastructure such as transportation, telecommunications,
basic services such as water, electricity and waste disposal;
Access to research institutions with the corporate-government
and university liaisons and the means to develop and market
research ideas;
Access to education and training institutions, both the
buildings and the hardware and software to reach rural
communities;
Access to financial institutions to bridge the financing
requirements at a reasonable cost for start-up companies and
companies in need of restructuralizing, rationalizing or
expanding.
[Translation]
In other words, we need some planning. We have to determine
which regions rely on seasonal work and then develop strategies
based on their specific needs.
We have to remember that seasonal workers are here to stay. We
will always want to eat lobster and need lumber to build our
houses.
We have to stop penalizing seasonal workers and try to find
solutions to extend the working season in the communities that
rely on seasonal work.
While we wait for medium and long-term solutions, we need to make
the EI benefits more accessible by reducing the number of
working hours needed to qualify.
We have to stop hurting seasonal workers. We have to get rid of
the intensity rule. And lastly, we have to increase the benefit
rate to 60%.
I have submitted my short, medium and long-term solutions to the
seasonal work problem and I look forward to hearing your
suggestions.
[English]
Mr. Charles Hubbard (Miramichi, Lib.): Madam Speaker, it
is a privilege to speak following my neighbour from the north of
my constituency, the member for Acadie—Bathurst, and also my
good friend from Madawaska—Restigouche in the far north.
I recognize the work the hon. member has done with EI. He has
travelled the country. His background has been with the labour
movement. When he speaks he is certainly speaking on behalf of
his constituents and the many people he has worked with in the
mining sector and other sectors of the labour congress over the
last number of years.
I differ very basically on some of the points the hon. member is
making. His tremendous energy should be directed more toward the
creation of employment, the creation of job opportunities for
those people who are in need of work. We heard the speech of the
hon. member. I see that you read the report of our Atlantic
caucus.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I ask the hon. member
to address his comments through the Chair.
Mr. Charles Hubbard: The hon. member read the report of
our Atlantic caucus. In fact his speech reflected the need for
infrastructure, the need for development of industry, the need
for greater attention to the economy of those areas and, above
all, the great advent of technology.
Great strides have been made in the province of New Brunswick,
both with the previous two premiers and our new premier who was
elected last summer. We hope he will be able to follow in the
footsteps of the previous two premiers.
Tonight I want to mention that employment insurance is not
simply a relationship between the government and the workers of
the country. It is a three way relationship. Employers pay into
the fund 1.4 times the amount put in by employees. We have to
ensure that it is a joint fund administered by the government of
the country. There has to be a relationship among employers,
employees and the government.
1755
The fund was changed in the early 1990s and again in 1995-96.
There are certain points we all must be concerned about. The
hon. member brought out a good number of those points in terms of
women, the intensity clause and seasonal workers about which we
are so much concerned.
Tonight we should salute people who work in our seasonal
industries. We talk about the people needed in the basic
resource based industries such as fisheries, agriculture,
forestry and other sectors. About 40% of the country's total
gross domestic product in terms of exports is from basic resource
based industries. We have to be sure the seasonal workers who
participate in those industries are looked after adequately.
The intensity clause is one of the most difficult. Many members
on this side of the House are concerned with the definite penalty
against people who participate in seasonal industries.
As the hon. member indicated, an employee draws from the program
for 20 weeks. Each time he draws after that he is penalized by
1%, going down eventually to 50%, which is a direct attack upon
people who are mostly involved in seasonal industries. We too
are concerned about that penalty or that intensity clause.
The employment insurance program has many good parts to it. For
example, I mention Nova Scotia which has a very good program for
people at the lower end of the economic scale. Families earning
less than approximately $27,000 a year can receive a family
supplement which will amount to approximately 80% of their earned
income. That is a definite, positive aspect of the changes made
in 1996.
We must also look at some government programs in terms of
attempting to look at areas in need of more employment. We think
of the former transitional jobs fund and, more specifically
today, the Canada jobs fund. I see in the House tonight a number
of members from New Brunswick. I think all of us from New
Brunswick benefit from the Canada jobs fund.
Mr. Yvon Godin: The problem is in my riding.
Mr. Charles Hubbard: Madam Speaker, the hon. member's
constituency has benefited more from the Canada jobs fund and the
transitional jobs fund than any constituency in the province of
New Brunswick. If he looks at the figures he will find that.
Mr. Yvon Godin: That is not right.
Mr. Charles Hubbard: Madam Speaker, he will have his
opportunity. Hopefully he will give me mine.
The employment insurance program is under continuous review. We
are attempting to look at some of the problems connected with
people returning to the workforce after a period of being left
out. We are looking at the fact that there are certain aspects
of the program which will be brought to the attention of the
minister. With them she would be able to come to the House to
make changes to better improve the program for all Canadians.
The motion of the hon. member certainly needs to be amended
because we might be led to believe that seasonal workers were
left out of the program. Therefore I move the following
amendment:
That the motion be amended by deleting all words after
“immediate action to” and substituting therefor the following,
“review employment insurance benefits for seasonal workers”.
1800
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The amendment is in
order. Debate is on the amendment.
Mr. Maurice Vellacott (Wanuskewin, Ref.): Madam Speaker,
I appreciate the concerns my NDP colleague has brought to the
House. It is truly a very important issue that needs to be
addressed by the government. We will go along and take some
second thought on the amendment. I am not sure that it is an
adequate response to the problem of the incomes of seasonal
workers. I will relate some of the reservations I have about it.
I acknowledge that it is an important issue and the member is to
be commended for having raised it in the House this evening.
As was already said, it is a given that we have the reality of
seasonal work in Canada. Certain businesses and industries in
Canada have seasonal ups and downs regardless of the business
cycle which means that fewer workers are needed at predictable
times of the year. The result is that workers in those
industries will apply for benefits at predictable times of the
year on a repeated basis year after year.
Seasonal work is a reality in Canada, perhaps more so than in
other countries because we have so many resource based industries
compared to other countries around the world. As has been
brought to our attention by the two previous speakers, the
problem we have before us and the reason the motion is here today
are because of the 1995 act and how it has affected seasonal
workers. That is the reason we are debating this motion today.
Seasonal workers are getting less in the way of benefits as a
result of those changes to the unemployment insurance program
introduced by the 1995 Employment Insurance Act.
The government member who spoke prior to me referred to the
intensity rule which the act introduced. That rule in its first
time coming into effect distinguishes between frequent and
infrequent recipients of benefits under the EI program.
Frequent users of EI receive reduced benefits based on their
previous use of the EI program. They are reduced by 1% when 20
weeks of benefits have been collected and may go as low as as
50%. They are not wiped out altogether but there is a
significant 5% reduction depending on the frequency of previous
claims. The lowest possible rate of 50% is in contrast with the
standard rate of 55% for regular claimants. That has had an
effect on real people, on Canadians, those who work in seasonal
industries in Canada.
The 1998 EI monitoring and assessment report produced by the
Department of Human Resources Development acknowledges that
communities with high levels of seasonal employment were more
likely to have industries that showed declining benefit levels.
What did the government intend to happen? What was the motive
of the government in all of this? What did it hope to accomplish
by means of this intensity rule?
It would seem that it hoped workers would move out of seasonal
industries and seek employment in industries where they would be
able to be employed year round. The reasoning is pretty simple.
Since seasonal workers would get less in EI benefits, they would
be in a position where they would seek employment that would not
be seasonal, that it would have that effect upon them.
Seasonal workers are not doing anything different despite what
the government assumed at that point. Unfortunately it did not
have that effect on a wide scale. Most seasonal workers, at
least during the time of the study that led to the 1998
monitoring report, said that the intensity rule would not affect
their work patterns. That is their plain statement on the
matter. When asked about their plans, they said that they had
few employment opportunities outside of their existing seasonal
jobs and that they would remain with their existing employment
and continue to apply for EI despite the intensity rule.
There may be some different ways to deal with this but I do not
believe we should go the route of what has been proposed today by
my colleague from the NDP. There are arguments for leaving EI as
it is if that is the only solution or proposal on the table.
1805
First, Motion No. 222 would move EI away from pure insurance
principles which the Reform Party supports for the employment
insurance program. EI is supposed to protect workers
against—and I underline it—the risk of “temporary involuntary
unemployment”. The member who introduced this motion mentioned
that, but I think we need to get the context here and underline
that it is for those where there is risk and it is temporary and
involuntary.
In the case of seasonal workers we are not talking about risk,
will I or will I not. They well know that come that certain time
of year, they will be laid off. There is that predictable
pattern of unemployment. For this reason EI as an insurance
program based on insurance principles is really compromised when
workers come back year after year at the same time of year for
benefits.
EI no longer functions as an insurance program, but rather it is
a wealth distribution program. That is not to say that wealth
distribution is not appropriate during a transition phase, but
that is perhaps another debate for another day.
My point here is that the EI program as it was originally
intended and as I quoted here would not be honouring true
insurance principles if we used it to address the problem of
seasonal workers.
The report of the Forget commission on UI stated on page 60:
“Although it transfers money from the employed to the unemployed
and to some degree from the rich to the poor, unemployment
insurance is not a very effective income redistribution
program”. There are other ways of doing it if that is our
intent.
Second, Motion No. 222 would subsidize certain industries but
not others. Companies that lay off workers at the same time
every year have a huge benefit if those workers do not move away
to find work elsewhere but stay in the area, collect EI and then
are available to return to work when that work season begins
again. This in effect means that such companies are being
subsidized by the EI program.
If such companies were forced to pay higher premiums than other
companies, then things might be fairer. Those companies might
also be motivated to extend work seasons to avoid those higher
premiums. That might be administratively difficult, I
acknowledge.
Third is why we should stay as is as opposed to the motion of
the member, unless there is some other proposal on the table. We
do have an amendment to which we will have to give some thought
and consideration. Some seasonal workers have not been as
affected as regular workers by the 1995 changes. That needs to
be brought to our attention.
Neither of the previous members made note of the fact that some
seasonal workers have not been as affected as regular workers by
the 1995 changes. In fact, the hours based system has actually
helped some seasonal workers who work longer than the average
hours per week, which is often the case with seasonal work. They
work from sunup until sundown. They work long hours and they get
lots of hours in over a short period of time. They are thus able
to qualify for benefits in a shorter period of time. On the other
hand non-seasonal workers who tend to work normal hours were not
helped by the switch to the hours based system as some seasonal
workers were.
Fourth, I would maintain the status quo or at least the present
system as opposed to the motion under discussion here, because
changing the rules for seasonal work might create an incentive
for people to enter seasonal industries. We usually hear of the
person who already has a seasonal job, but what about the person
looking for a first job or looking to make a job switch? They
might be more tempted to try to get a seasonal job than a long
term employment option if they know that EI will supplement their
income. Clearly we want some incentive in place that will make a
person prefer the non-seasonal yearlong job. We need to have
that in our EI program.
Can we affect seasonal patterns? I think to some extent we can
over the course of time. Seasonal patterns themselves have
changed over time. During the 1970s, seasonality in employment
declined somewhat, primarily in the primary industries mainly due
to the decline in the size of the agricultural sector relative to
the rest of the economy.
Seasonal variability in unemployment has declined even more. In
1966 the difference between unemployment in the highest and
lowest months was 46%. By 1980 the difference had declined to
less than 26%.
We might ask how a government would go about affecting work
patterns. One excellent proposal is that of experience rating.
A fundamental reform which could help us is a proposal by
Professor Jack Mintz contained in a taxation on business report.
He talked about experience rating which relates to insurance
premiums. This is used in the United States in cases where an
insurance scheme penalizes those companies which lay people off
more than the industry average. This is relevant to our
situation today.
1810
In a situation where there are many seasonal employees such as
the forestry industry, a pulp and paper outfit which lays off
more than the norm in that particular industry would see its
premiums go up. This would create a disincentive to lay off
people.
A couple of years ago I was struck by a situation in a Wal-Mart
store in Maine. It hired a number of people before Christmas and
then laid them off normally, but it hired people to do a variety
of other things and kept them on in the long term.
We should pursue these types of possibilities in some of our
other seasonal industries. It is doable. We need to use some
creative minds in terms of our approach so that we go after
experience rating as a possibility for seasonal workers.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Madam Speaker, I want to commend the hon. member for
Acadie—Bathurst for his motion. I think that the issue of
seasonal workers is a real concern.
This is the third year of the intensity rule which penalizes
seasonal workers, taking away 1% of their benefits every time
they receive employment insurance benefits for 20 weeks. This
means three years during which, in our ridings, the Liberals
have condoned the unfair treatment of these people, who have
earned these benefits through their hard work.
The motion, as it stands, is dynamic and interesting. We must
change the intensity rule, the number of weeks where benefits
can be paid out, the weekly employment insurance benefits and
the number of hours to qualify. These four factors deeply
influence the financial status of our seasonal workers.
Because of these requirements, young people and women who could
have seasonal jobs are leaving some areas because they cannot
work the 910 hours required to qualify. This is also true for
our seasonal workers.
Most importantly, the law implies that these people have chosen
not to work longer.
That is what is left of the whole debate initiated by the Prime
Minister when he called unemployed workers beer drinkers. Well,
we have seen the consequences in the legislation. Today, a
couple of weeks before Christmas, there are people who are
wondering if they will have enough money to get through the
holiday season and to survive until their next job in the
spring.
The reason is not that there are fewer jobs than before, and the
Liberals should understand that. Right now, we are in a period
where the economy is strong but there are seasonal workers who
have a job only during the summer. Because of restrictions in
the EI program, either they qualify or they do not qualify, but
the bottom line is that their annual income is lower than it was
before the reform.
This is totally unacceptable.
This proposal with regard to seasonal workers did not come only
from opposition parties. It did not come only from the people we
talked to on this subject. It was supported by the premiers,
particularly those affected by the intensity rule that penalizes
seasonal workers through a reduction of the number of weeks of
benefits and the weekly amount.
Forestry workers who work hard but cannot work all year long
find it difficult and unacceptable to see the government treat
them as if they were lazy, especially when they do not have
enough money to support their family.
They then find that they do not have enough dignity to assume
their responsibilities as family breadwinners and that is even
harder on their self-esteem.
Farm workers live the same situation. In my town of Saint-Denis
de Kamouraska and in all other villages, some must try to
qualify, but ultimately they still may not receive enough money
to support their family. The situation is serious because farms
are the backbone of rural areas. It will last until that
infamous rule is abolished. The Government of Canada is saying
to seasonal workers that they do not deserve the same status as
other workers. Yet during all the years when the plan was a
valid one, they were allowed to earn an income.
1815
We were happy to have those workers being employed, often for
low wages, so that in the industrial urbanized areas,
particularly in Ontario, people could earn a good income in the
processing industries. However, there were no processing
industries in our own areas.
In the meantime, people end up working in agriculture and
forestry. There are also those who work in turf pits. I know
families around Rivière-du-Loup in which the husband works at the
turf pit and the wife works as a secretary. However, her job is
also seasonal because the company hires her for only part of the
year. They have a combined income of about $30,000 a year.
At the end of the day we end up with the intensity rule, under
which for every 20 weeks of EI, benefits are cut back from 55%
of earnings to 54%, then to 53% and so on. This means that over
three years almost all seasonal workers see their benefit rate
reduced to 50%.
The consequences of that are absolutely absurd. In my area,
between 1992 and 1998 the federal government invested, from
year to year approximately $85 million less in the regional
economy. That means that even if industries are very aggressive
and manage to get $2 million or $2.5 million out of the Canada
jobs fund, there is still an $83 million shortfall in the end.
Those who rely on these industries and are seasonal workers do
not benefit from that.
Faced with this situation, the federal government must respond
quickly. Action is urgently required. The amendment the Liberal
majority put forward earlier is not enough, in my opinion. It
should be much more specific. I recall that at the first
meeting of the Committee on Human Resources Development, the
year following the 1997 election, there were members of the NDP,
the Progressive Conservative Party and the Bloc Quebecois who
asked that the first issue the committee were to consider be the
EI reform.
The observations made today have already been made everywhere in
our regions.
The Liberal majority told us “This will not be on the agenda;
we will not start on this right away.”
I do not like the amendment introduced by the Liberals because
it could lead to “committee-itis” and we will end up with the
same song and dance from the department. The minister has been
telling us for some time now “We are going to review the
reform. We will assess the new plan after one year and then we
will act accordingly.”
A new minister is appointed and we get the same answer. We are
now into the third year and soon enough it will be five years.
Seasonal workers do not eat in the long term, they need to eat
every day. They need rules providing them with enough money to
feed their family when they are in between two jobs and retain
their dignity.
This is what the federal government has failed to understand.
I believe the amendment on the table is a sign the Liberal
government has come to the realization that if it goes into an
election with its employment insurance reform as it is, fewer
liberal members will be elected in the maritimes and in Quebec,
particularly in the areas concerned, and possibly in others too.
The liberal member said “There are three stakeholders in this:
the government, the employers and the employees.” But the only
thing the government has done so far is pocket the employment
insurance fund surplus and pay down a part of the debt with it.
However, those who contributed, the employers and the employees,
believe that $6 out of $18 billion going every year to fund
something else than what it was intended for is highway robbery.
It is embezzlement. This is what it looks like to them. This is
what is being put directly on the table.
In light of all these issues, it seems to me that the
valuable motion introduced by the hon. member should be amended.
Therefore, I move:
That the following words be added at the end of the motion:
“and that the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development
review the situation of these workers at its next sitting”.
I am submitting this subamendment to the Chair to ensure that
action will be taken in the short term. This amendment is
supported by the hon. member for Portneuf and I hope that it
will also get the support of the House. It would allow us to go
beyond idle promises so that after two years all those who
kept pushing to have this issue looked at by the Standing
Committee on Human Resources Development would finally get some
result as early as at the next sitting.
If the committee decides to sit tomorrow morning or the day
after, it will not be a problem, we will be there.
We will ensure that we can work on this issue.
1820
I am urging the House to support the amendment and the
subamendment so that seasonal workers can finally get justice.
This is also an opportunity for the Liberal government to
eliminate the terrible burden that it put on workers.
Seasonal workers are not lazy people. They want to work but the
government has deprived them of the dignity associated with
working. We must give it back to them.
The Deputy Speaker: Does the hon. member wish to submit a
subamendment?
Mr. Paul Crête: Mr. Speaker, I already did, but I can present it
again:
That the following be added at the end of the motion: “and that
the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development review the
situation of these workers at its next sitting”.
The Deputy Speaker: The Chair has some reservations as to
whether the amendment is in order. We will continue debate while
the Chair considers the amendment proposed by the hon. member.
Ms. Angela Vautour (Beauséjour—Petitcodiac, PC): Mr. Speaker,
first of all I would like to thank my colleague from
Acadie—Bathurst for giving us the opportunity today to discuss
once again the serious problem of seasonal workers.
My Bloc Quebecois colleague who just spoke closed his speech
with a reference to dignity. It is true that our seasonal
workers have been stripped of their dignity. That happened some
years ago already.
It happened the day that the Prime Minister of Canada, that same
man who came to the riding I represent, then called Beauséjour,
seeking votes. When he got back to Ottawa after campaigning in
our riding, the first thing he told all the Canadians in the
country is that he had been to New Brunswick where he had seen
unemployed people bending their elbows in taverns. He said:
[English]
“In New Brunswick, seasonal workers are in taverns collecting
EI”.
[Translation]
You can easily imagine what Canadians think of seasonal workers
now. These words came from the mouth of the man who went after
these same people to get voted into this House and to now be the
Prime Minister. This gives us some idea of what kind of man is
leading this country today. The people of New Brunswick could
readily find a number of terms to describe him.
However, we have our hands full doing away with this perception
and making Canadians realize that seasonal workers are not lazy
people.
If only hon. members could go to these plants, they would see
that men and women there sometimes put in 100 or so hours a week
for minimum wage, on their feet from morning to night, sunup to
sundown, trying to earn a little money to take home.
1825
The same thing can be seen in all sectors not just in New
Brunswick. It is the same in any area of seasonal employment.
First of all, it is not the workers who are seasonal, it is the
work that is, or their communities, with their high unemployment
levels.
Instead of trying to develop our regions, instead of trying to
create more jobs, this government has taken away the only
program that helped these people. The reform was well thought
out by this Liberal government. It focussed on one particular
group, the workers in areas of seasonal employment. They are
the ones targeted.
[English]
This has created a situation that is quite desperate in some
areas. We have a discriminatory clause on the intensity rule.
We have all talked about it but nobody is doing anything about
it. I do not see the Liberal government doing anything about it.
We do not hear enough about the divisor. Most of the MPs in the
House probably do not know what the word means because they have
never been on EI. Well some of us have collected EI cheques
because we have needed to. The divisor is a serious problem
because some people receive only $30 week. Before the last cuts
to the program, they were receiving maybe $200 or $250 a week.
This is what the new EI has done to these people. We have to
recognize that in order to fix it.
How about the pilot project we are under? Practically the
whole country is under this project and not under the real act
because of the small weeks. We are not talking about that
either. That has to be permanently correctly.
How about the zones? We could solve maybe 80% of the problems
in some areas if we had a minister who would rezone the way it
should be done. Let us put the rural communities together and
the urban communities together. In Albert county, Petitcodiac
and Salisbury, we have two national parks in one zone and another
one in another zone. One group of workers in these parks can
qualify with 420 hours while the other group of workers need 669
hours.
Let us talk about the duration for these two communities. In
one community, the workers can receive 26 weeks of EI while in
the other community the workers receive 15 weeks, but they are
all in the same riding. How can this happen? It happened under
this government.
We have to talk about the duration problem. We have people
going with no incomes for up to 12 to 15 weeks. Can anybody here
live with no income for 15 weeks? Why do we think that a person
who has seasonal job can? It is unbelievable.
Let us talk about the Canada jobs fund. The Canada jobs fund
can be very good if it is used right. The government likes to
talk about abuse in the EI system but it forgets to talk about
its abuse of the fund. I have to say that I have seen it work
very well in my riding if it is done right. All we have to do is
get the politicians who make it not right out of the picture.
Let us just do it right. Let us let the MP recommend the
project.
In one instance I did not recommend a project in my riding
because I knew there was something wrong with it. Let us think
for a minute what happened to it. Within a year it had folded
and we lost the money. I had not recommended that project but
the minister went over my head and gave funds to that group
knowing it was not going to work. There was no plan. Little
political favours like that cost a lot money. Those programs
will work if we want them to work.
Since the last round of cuts, my riding alone has lot $52
million a year. New Brunswick has lost over a billion dollars in
four years. That is a lot of money. That will not solve our
problem. Our problem is high unemployment. We have to create
the jobs.
We probably will never create enough jobs for everybody to work
year-round. We have to recognize that we have seasonal
industries.
1830
The Deputy Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt the hon.
member, but the time provided for the consideration of Private
Members' Business has now expired. When this item comes up for
debate again the hon. member will have three minutes remaining in
the time allotted to her.
The time provided for the consideration of Private Members'
Business having expired, the order is dropped to the bottom of
the order of precedence on the order paper.
ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
[English]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to
have been moved.
TRADE
Mr. Rick Casson (Lethbridge, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, my
question tonight follows on a question I posed on November 19 of
this year regarding an agricultural trade issue.
Protectionism in the international trade of agriculture is on
the rise. U.S. border state politicians are increasing their
rhetoric and are once again starting to rattle their trade
sabres, threatening the livelihood of Canadian agricultural
producers.
The most recent example of this protectionism is the
anti-dumping and countervail petition to the U.S. department of
commerce by the Montana producers' group, R-CALF. R-CALF claimed
that Canadian cattle were government subsidized and were dumped
on the U.S. market. Before the United States International Trade
Commission finally ruled in Canada's favour, Canadian cattlemen
were forced to pay a 5.63% provisional tariff on their export
cattle, open their books to a foreign government agency and spend
millions of dollars in legal fees to defend their industry
against these groundless claims.
Canadian cattlemen are fair traders but are being left exposed
to the threat of multimillion dollar legal battles because of the
indifference of the government and its failure to treat
agricultural trade as a priority.
The government has had six years to reduce the bilateral trade
irritants with our biggest trading partner. The current
definition of dumping, which does not consider the cyclical
nature of the agriculture industry, trapped Canadian cattlemen
when they were forced to sell their cattle below the price of
production several years ago. This poorly worded definition does
more to hurt Canadian industry than to protect it. A responsible
definition should reflect market cycles and take action in cases
of predatory pricing and selling below home market prices.
Another aggravation for cattlemen in this case was the failure
of the agriculture minister to take decisive action to implement
changes recommended by the Canadian cattle industry, changes that
would address trade tensions between Canada and the U.S.
Frustrated by the inaction of the federal government in the wake
of the R-CALF petition, a group of cattlemen in my riding came
together and formed a producer group called the North West Beef
Producers. This group raised over $200,000 to finance meetings
with U.S. producers to seek a solution to these repeated trade
disputes. It requested an expansion of the north west pilot
project, specifically asking for a national exemption on Blue
Tongue and recommending a treatment protocol for anaplasmosis,
allowing year-round entry to Canada of feeder cattle from the
U.S.
However, despite the fact that considerable research has proven
that lifting the restrictions will not adversely affect the
health of the Canadian herd, and that these proposals do not
depend on federal financial assistance for their success, the
federal minister of agriculture left cattlemen high and dry,
promising only to further explore the issue.
Although the U.S. ITC ruled in Canada's favour, this government
is making a mistake if it thinks that the Americans are willing
to give up the fight. The government need only look at the
$75,000 donation that the Government of South Dakota made to the
R-CALF campaign to see how seriously the northern tier U.S.
states view this issue.
How long will the minister of agriculture leave Canadian
cattlemen exposed to the kind of trade harassment that we have
seen over the last year before he implements the regulatory
changes to the north west pilot project requested by industry
groups and when will the changes to the definition of dumping
that the industry is asking for be implemented?
Mr. Bob Speller (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for
International Trade Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon.
member for bringing this matter forward tonight. I would
encourage him to come to the foreign affairs committee, which has
discussed this issue in the past a number of times. His
colleagues on the committee might remind him of the times that we
discussed this issue at the foreign affairs committee. It is a
very important issue for Canada.
In his intervention the member raised the anti-dumping
investigation on live cattle which was recently concluded by the
United States. It is important to say that the International
Trade Commission ruled that Canada's shipments of live cattle are
not injuring the U.S. industry.
Therefore, dumping duties will not be assessed. The Government
of Canada is very pleased with this decision.
1835
As an export driven economy, Canada is concerned with the use of
trade remedies such as anti-dumping by growing numbers of
countries. These measures can significantly impair access to
foreign markets. In this regard we recognize that there is scope
for improvement in the rules which allow considerable discretion
by investigating authorities. That is why we are seeking
multilateral negotiations to clarify anti-dumping rules.
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan—Coquihalla, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
at this time of the year it is very important that we take the
opportunity, when it is given, to express our gratitude to the
men and women of the Canadian forces who are serving abroad and
will not be home with their families.
It was in this context that on December 1 I asked the Minister
of National Defence a question pertaining to the replacement of
the Canadian forces' Sea King maritime helicopter. I pointed out
that the Liberal government's own 1994 defence white paper, which
is the official government policy, promised that the Sea King
would be replaced prior to the year 2000. The Liberal
government's 1994 white paper states:
Canada's maritime forces will be adequately equipped to carry out
their new array of tasks. There is an urgent need for robust and
capable new shipborne helicopters—. Work will, therefore, begin
immediately to identify options and plans to put into service new
affordable replacement helicopters by the end of the decade.
That is found at page 46 of the defence white paper.
Note that the 1994 white paper promised to have new maritime
helicopters put into service by the end of the decade, not
tendered as a contract, but—and again I stress—put into
service. That means that our maritime helicopter air crews
should be taking delivery of the last few helicopters during the
next couple of weeks.
Obviously, given the late date, the Liberal government has
broken its promise to Canadians and its commitment to its very
own defence white paper of 1994.
In November, during a meeting of the standing committee on
national defence, the Minister of National Defence proclaimed
that no new maritime helicopter would be in service until the
year 2005 at the very earliest.
The Minister of National Defence has broken his own government's
stated policy. This broken promise by the Liberal government has
very serious consequences for the Canadian forces, and in
particular the personnel. Continuing to use the Sea Kings has
reduced the operational capabilities of our forces, and it has
also placed those air crews at risk.
The Sea Kings are now 35 years old, older than most of the
people serving as crew on those crafts. The equipment is
technically out of date and requires over 30 hours of maintenance
for every one hour of flight. Often, when needed on missions or
during military manoeuvres, the Sea Kings are unavailable due to
technical difficulties.
In my question on December 1 I said that Canadians continually
read about how forces operations have been hampered by the
failures of the Sea Kings. It took only one day to find an
example. On December 2 the news headlines read that a Sea King
helicopter experienced engine failure and was forced to make an
emergency landing on the water at Dili Harbour in East Timor.
This was an operational disaster that put Canadian air service
personnel at risk.
Today the Canadian Press carried a story that the Sea Kings are
literally disintegrating in the skies, with at least seven
significant pieces falling off in mid-flight since July. For
example, on July 7 a window popped off a cargo door, landing near
a house in York Harbour, Newfoundland. Worse still, on October
12 a bolt popped off a Sea King, forcing an emergency landing at
Shearwater.
This is unacceptable. The Liberal policy has been broken. I
believe that the government has lost its commitment to the
Canadian forces. It has lost capability for the forces and, most
tragically, lost lives.
I ask the government, where is the replacement for the Sea King
helicopter?
1840
[Translation]
Mr. Jacques Saada (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, ever since they have been in
service, Sea King helicopters have made an outstanding
contribution in many areas, and more particularly in
surveillance, and search and rescue operations.
They have been deployed throughout the world, during the gulf
war, in Somalia, in Haiti, in the Adriatic Sea for our
involvement in NATO operations, and also in East Timor.
I think all Canadians should be proud of what the Sea Kings and
their crews have accomplished over the years.
But, as the minister has said, it is time to replace the Sea
Kings.
The minister has confirmed on several occasions in the House
that, as far as equipment goes, the new maritime helicopter
project is his first priority. We are working on an acquisition
strategy.
But this work is taking more time than we had foreseen in the
white book, because the government wants to make sure we will
have the equipment that meets our needs best.
The government must make sure that the new maritime helicopter
will met the operational needs of the Canadian forces. For a
procurement program as important as this one, several
departments have to be consulted. The government will make an
announcement when everything is ready.
[English]
What my colleague emphatically calls broken promises is the
dedication of my government to make things right from all points
of view. This is more important than politicking.
CSIS
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to bring to the attention of the House
yet again an issue that has been before the Canadian public for
some time. I am talking about the failure of the solicitor
general's department to take control of some of its own internal
agencies.
With respect to this issue, the CSIS agent had sensitive
documents taken from a car while at a hockey game in Toronto. We
know that the head of CSIS has commenced an investigation, but
since that time more security breaches have been exposed.
The solicitor general by his acquiescence has been putting in
question the good name of the CSIS agents and the RCMP. The
problem is obvious. There is no accountability from the top
officers at CSIS or the solicitor general and those within his
department.
The recent sad chapter involves a CSIS agent at a hockey game
with top secret documents pertaining to the plan of the country
with respect to internal security. The solicitor general should
have said the puck stops here. Obviously that has not happened.
Time and time again we have seen the non-answers, the rhetoric
and the tired preprogrammed responses of the solicitor general in
the House. He states that he takes national security as a
serious matter, that it is a top priority for the government, and
that there is a process which has to be followed. Bunk. This is
absolute nonsense. If this were the case things would change.
They do not change and that is very obvious.
The solicitor general did not inform the head of SIRC, Paule
Gauthier. She found out through reading the Globe and Mail
almost a week after the event occurred. The solicitor general
said he was informed of the event by the director, Ward Elcock.
We know Mr. Elcock does not have a great deal of respect for this
place or certainly for parliamentarians. He has no respect for
SIRC and no respect even for the minister, I would suggest.
The director, aided by the minister, has undermined the role of
SIRC. It appears at worst that he deliberately covered up the
theft of the CSIS plan or at best acquiesced and sat on it. The
solicitor general seems oblivious to this. The lights are on but
there does not appear to be anybody home. Furthermore, no one
has held the head of CSIS, Mr. Elcock, accountable. The CSIS
board has had vacancies for years. It was only this summer that
the inspector general's role was filled, just prior to this
fiasco being uncovered.
The solicitor general said that he did not inform the Prime
Minister's Office. Yet the Prime Minister was overseas making
comments about it and trying to downplay it as a serious incident
and a serious breach of security. If the solicitor general did
not inform the Prime Minister, how was the Prime Minister able to
make such pointed comments? Who informed him and what faith
should we have in a solicitor general who keeps this from the
Prime Minister?
The solicitor general took great licence with the word
immediately when the theft had occurred three weeks before and
had already been reported in the Globe and Mail before it
was uncovered at all. Why was SIRC not informed immediately?
1845
If the solicitor general is covering up for CSIS, this needs to
be exposed. Was he trying to hide the embarrassment of the
incident from the Prime Minister and the Canadian people? If
everyone is informed and the process is going to work, everyone
has to be informed.
The solicitor general obviously does not understand his
departments. He does not understand the individuals who are
involved and he cannot continue to pass the buck. These are very
serious communication breakdowns. We already know that the RCMP
and CSIS are not communicating effectively. Obviously the
solicitor general is not prepared to step in and see that his
departments are co-operating.
The parliamentary secretary will tell us in a few minutes that
things are fine. It will be the same broken record response that
we will hear from the solicitor general. He will parrot the same
line, but we know this is a problem in the country right now. The
solicitor general should have at least asked to call the director
before him and make him take account for what occurred.
Canadians are very worried, as they should be, about national
security. The solicitor general and the government, by their
actions, demonstrate that they do not take these matters
seriously. They demonstrate that they have no respect for the
concerns of parliamentarians and Canadians at large.
[Translation]
Mr. Jacques Saada (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I find this interesting. The
member opposite is accusing me of always giving him the same
answers. What am I supposed to do if he keeps asking me the same
questions? Do I have a choice?
Let us be clear. There was a security breach, which I deplore as
much as my colleague, but he is not the only one who is
concerned with the safety of Canadians.
When a security breach occurs, and it does happen unfortunately
because our systems rely on humans who sometimes make mistakes,
there is a process in place to deal with that.
My colleague knows full well that this very House established
two institutions at the same time as the Canadian Security
Intelligence Service: the Inspector General and the Security
Intelligence Review Committee, or SIRC. Both are investigating
these matters.
Both institutions are totally independent and have unrestricted
access to all CSIS documents.
These matters to which my colleague referred are being reviewed
by these two institutions. There was absolutely no obligation on
the part of the minister to inform SIRC. It is not his duty.
SIRC is a review committee.
I somewhat deplore the fact that, as soon as an incident occurs,
my colleague opposite always has the same reaction: first he
panics, then he questions the value of institutions that were
established by this parliament to deal with these matters.
Again, I am sorry to say that if I am asked the same question
tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, in three weeks or in a month,
I will give the same answer.
The Deputy Speaker: The motion to adjourn the House is now
deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly, this House stands
adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 6.48 p.m.)