36th Parliament, 2nd Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 14
CONTENTS
Friday, October 29, 1999
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
1005
| CIVIL INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION AGREEMENT IMPLEMENTATION
|
| Bill C-4. Second reading
|
| Hon. Alfonso Gagliano |
| Mr. John Cannis |
1010
1015
1020
| Mr. Charlie Penson |
1025
1030
1035
| Mr. Pierre Brien |
1040
1045
1050
1055
| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| CANADA'S ECONOMY
|
| Mr. Robert Bertrand |
| ROBERT MUNDELL
|
| Mr. Grant McNally |
| BREAST CANCER
|
| Ms. Paddy Torsney |
1100
| PORT COLBORNE
|
| Mr. John Maloney |
| ROYAL CANADIAN DRAGOONS
|
| Mr. Hec Clouthier |
| UNICEF
|
| Mr. Mac Harb |
| PUBLIC SERVANTS
|
| Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
| THE OTTAWA SENATORS
|
| Mr. David Pratt |
1105
| MINISTER OF TRANSPORT
|
| Mr. Ghislain Fournier |
| THE PHILIPPINES
|
| Mr. Rey D. Pagtakhan |
| CONDITIONAL SENTENCING
|
| Mr. Chuck Cadman |
| CANADA CUSTOMS
|
| Mr. Pat Martin |
| NUCLEAR ENERGY
|
| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
1110
| YOUNG OFFENDERS
|
| Mr. Gerald Keddy |
| YOUTH CRIMINAL JUSTICE ACT
|
| Mr. Roy Cullen |
| EMPLOYMENT EQUITY
|
| Mr. Ted White |
| COMMUNITY ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mrs. Karen Kraft Sloan |
| VISIBLE MINORITIES
|
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
1115
| FISHERIES
|
| Mr. Gilles Bernier |
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
| TAXATION
|
| Mr. Richard M. Harris |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Richard M. Harris |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Richard M. Harris |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
1120
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
| Mr. Ken Epp |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Ken Epp |
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
| AIR TRANSPORTATION
|
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
| Herb Gray |
1125
| Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
| Hon. Ralph E. Goodale |
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
1130
| Hon. Ralph E. Goodale |
| AIRLINE INDUSTRY
|
| Mr. Bill Casey |
| Mr. Stan Dromisky |
| Mr. Bill Casey |
| Mr. Stan Dromisky |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. Gerry Ritz |
| Hon. Ralph E. Goodale |
| Mr. Allan Kerpan |
| Hon. Ralph E. Goodale |
1135
| AIR TRANSPORTATION
|
| Mr. Pierre Brien |
| Mr. Stan Dromisky |
| Mr. Pierre Brien |
| Mr. Stan Dromisky |
| APEC INQUIRY
|
| Mr. Ted White |
| Mr. Grant McNally |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| GENETICALLY MODIFIED FOODS
|
| Ms. Hélène Alarie |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| Ms. Hélène Alarie |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
1140
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
| Mr. Bob Speller |
| Mr. Darrel Stinson |
| Mr. Bob Speller |
| COUNCIL FOR CANADIAN UNITY
|
| Mr. Maurice Dumas |
| Hon. Sheila Copps |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. Ian Murray |
| Hon. Ralph E. Goodale |
| HEALTH
|
| Mr. Keith Martin |
1145
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| GENETICALLY MODIFIED FOODS
|
| Mr. Reed Elley |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| HOMELESSNESS
|
| Ms. Libby Davies |
| Hon. Claudette Bradshaw |
| Ms. Libby Davies |
| Hon. Claudette Bradshaw |
| BANKING
|
| Mr. Scott Brison |
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
1150
| Mr. Scott Brison |
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
| SMALL BUSINESS
|
| Mr. Steve Mahoney |
| Mr. John Cannis |
| FISHERIES
|
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
| Mr. Lawrence D. O'Brien |
| CANADA ELECTIONS ACT
|
| Mr. Antoine Dubé |
| Hon. Don Boudria |
1155
| TRADE
|
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
| Mr. Bob Speller |
| AIRLINE INDUSTRY
|
| Mr. Bill Casey |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| TRADE
|
| Mrs. Nancy Karetak-Lindell |
| Mr. Bob Speller |
| FISHERIES
|
| Mr. Jim Gouk |
| Mr. Lawrence D. O'Brien |
1200
| CANADA ELECTIONS ACT
|
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| VISIBLE MINORITIES
|
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
| Hon. Lucienne Robillard |
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Gilles Bernier |
| Mr. David Iftody |
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
| GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
1205
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Public Accounts
|
| Mr. Lawrence D. O'Brien |
| Foreign Affairs and International Trade
|
| Mr. Denis Paradis |
| Procedure and House Affairs
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| EMANCIPATION DAY ACT, 1999
|
| Bill C-282. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Procedure and House Affairs
|
| Motion for concurrence
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| Finance
|
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| Motion
|
1210
1215
| Mr. Richard M. Harris |
| Mr. Jay Hill: Mr. Speaker, Standing Order 74 |
1220
| The Speaker |
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
1225
| Hon. Alfonso Gagliano |
| Motion
|
| Mr. Ken Epp |
1230
1235
1240
1245
| Amendment
|
1250
| Mr. Maurizio Bevilacqua |
1255
1300
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
1305
| Mr. John Duncan |
1310
| Mr. Nelson Riis |
1315
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
1320
| Mr. John Duncan |
1325
| Motion
|
1405
(Division 46)
| Motion negatived
|
| Notice of Closure Motion
|
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| NISGA'A FINAL AGREEMENT ACT
|
| Bill C-9—Notice of Time Allocation
|
| Hon. Don Boudria |
1410
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Finance
|
1415
1420
| Mr. Steve Mahoney |
| Motion
|
1425
| Mr. Grant McNally |
| Appendix
|
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 14
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Friday, October 29, 1999
The House met at 10 a.m.
Prayers
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
1005
[English]
CIVIL INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION AGREEMENT IMPLEMENTATION
ACT
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (for the Minister of Industry) moved
that Bill C-4, an act to implement the agreement among the
Government of Canada, Governments of Member States of the
European Space Agency, the Government of Japan, the Government of
the Russian Federation, and the Government of the United States
of America concerning co-operation on the civil international
space station and to make related amendments to other acts, be
read the second time and referred to a committee.
Mr. John Cannis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Industry, Lib.): Madam Speaker, today I have the honour to
speak at second reading of Bill C-4, the legislation governing
Canada's participation in the greatest science and technology
project in the history of humanity, namely the international
space station.
I will begin my remarks by quoting one of Canada's foremost
pioneers, John H. Chapman, who once said: “In the second
century of Confederation the fabric of Canadian society will be
held together by strands in space, just as strongly as the
railway and telegraph held together the scattered provinces in
the last century”.
These inspiring words were initially pronounced by John H.
Chapman in the late 1950s, at the early stage of space
exploration. With his vision, Mr. Chapman is now considered the
father of the Canadian space program. Chapman went on to state:
“The technological advances which are the outcome of space spill
over into the more normal activities of our world”.
That is what Bill C-4 is all about. We are talking about space
exploration for the benefit of all Canadians and humanity. Bill
C-4 enables Canada to become a full partner in the greatest
endeavour, the construction and the operation of the
international space station. It formalizes our participation as
a nation. Without it Canada can no longer be considered a
partner. Without it this nation would lose a tremendous
opportunity for the development of Canadian space research in
science. Without it Canada would also jeopardize hundreds, even
thousands of jobs all ready created in this high tech
environment.
1010
Our investment in international space science and technology
projects, like the international space station, positions
Canadian scientists, engineers and entrepreneurs on the world
market. It allows this nation to continue contributing to
scientific discovery and our understanding of the entire
universe. That is what Bill C-4 is all about.
The international space station is a symbol of international
co-operation and the joint effort of the world's leading
industrial nations, including Canada as a key partner.
In its final form the station will cover an area as large as a
football field and will accommodate a permanent international
crew of seven astronauts, including Canadian astronauts dedicated
to advancements in the areas of biotechnology, engineering, Earth
observation and telecommunications.
The bill before us relates to the implementation of Canada's
obligation under the agreement concerning co-operation on the
international space station and extends the application of the
Canadian criminal code to Canadians on board.
All parties to the agreement have undertaken to establish a
framework for mutual international co-operation in relation to
the detailed design, development, operation and use of a
permanently inhabited space station for peaceful purposes.
The bill before us brings Canadian law in line with the
international obligations negotiated in the agreement and thereby
reaffirms Canada's strong commitment to participate in this most
historic project.
The history of Canada's participation in the international space
station project dates back to the year when Canada's first
astronaut, Marc Garneau, travelled in space. It was in 1984 when
President Reagan invited friends and allies to join the United
States in the building, operation and use of a space station
within the Earth's orbit for peaceful purposes.
In March 1985 Canada accepted the invitation and notified NASA
that Canada's contribution was to be based on the concept of the
mobile servicing system. The system is nothing less than the
next generation of the Canadarm, which would help assemble and
maintain the space station once in orbit.
In 1988 Canada, the U.S., Europe and Japan formalized a
partnership with the signature of an international
intergovernmental agreement on the space station. This set out
the broad principles and legal basis for co-operation in the
space station program.
Following the redesign of the space station in 1993, the
partners finally invited Russia to join the partnership in what
became a truly international space station.
On April 8, 1997, during a press conference with President
Clinton, the Prime Minister of Canada reaffirmed Canada's
participation in the international space station program with an
announcement that Canada would provide the special purpose
dexterous manipulator. This appendage-like robotic technology,
often referred to as a robotic hand, is designed to operate with
a new robotic arm for delicate assembly and repair operations.
Following three years of negotiations, all parties signed the
revised international agreement on the space station on January
29, 1998, officially bringing Russia into the partnership. This
agreement stipulates a two year ratification period to January
29, 2000.
Bill C-4 allows Canada to ratify this international agreement
and legally endorse our commitment to this partnership.
Over and over again in international discussions about this
country's many accomplishments in space, Canada's role with
respect to the Canadarm is often mentioned. Clearly, our space
robotics and automation technologies have become symbols of
Canada's great success in the field of high tech and a source of
price for all Canadians. Moreover, for the global high tech
community our robotic technologies have become a showcase of what
this nation is capable of doing here on Earth and out in space.
Most importantly, the success of the Canadarm has given Canada
the credibility to venture even further, with the full confidence
of the world's space-faring nations, to undertake the next step
in advanced space robotic systems.
1015
From the outset, Canada's involvement has capitalized on its
expertise in space robotics. Canada maintains its position as a
world leader in this specific field. It also provides Canada's
scientific communities privileged access to the unique
microgravity environment and creates new technology spinoffs for
the entire country.
Today Canada is already reaping the benefits of its
participation in the project in terms of contracts to Canada's
space industry and the prestige of being part of one of the
greatest engineering feats in our history. Overall, Canada
expects returns of three or four times the original investment,
along with many high tech positions.
Canada's participation in the assembly of the international
space station began with flying colours. Last December, we
watched how the Canadarm and the Canadian artificial vision
system were brought together to assemble the first two modules of
the space station, the American module “Unity” and the Russian
module “Zarya”. Canada's knowhow was instrumental in getting
this incredible project started.
It goes without saying that the very act of Canada playing a
role unifying these two modules is quite symbolic. In May of
this year, we watched with great pride as Julie Payette became
the first Canadian to board the first two modules of the station.
Next year, Marc Garneau will participate in his third mission as
a crew member of the STS-97. The mission will be devoted mainly
to installing the international space station's solar panels and
will require two space walks, co-ordinated by Mr. Garneau. Among
his other duties, Mr. Garneau will operate the Canadarm for
assembly purposes.
Following Marc Garneau will be Chris Hadfield on his second
mission. Canadians will be watching Chris Hadfield make history
by becoming the first Canadian to perform a space walk to install
Canada's new robotic arm on the international space station.
Once the arm is installed, Canadians and the rest of the world
will watch with pride as the Canadarm and the new arm of the
space station working in concert to build the largest space
structure and microgravity laboratory ever built.
Once the entire mobile servicing system is operational, with the
installation of the helping robotic hand functioning on the end
of the arm, astronauts will be able to perform complex on-orbit
tasks quickly, safely and cost efficiently from the relative
comfort of the space station modules. Simply put, without the
use of the Canadian robotic technologies the station could not be
built nor maintained efficiently and effectively.
In March of this year, the Government of Canada provided the
Canadian Space Agency with stable ongoing funding for the
Canadian space program. The funds demonstrate the government's
strong commitment to promoting advanced sciences and technologies
that are driving the global knowledge based economy and helping
Canadians remain leaders in the field.
Our investments in space support our international commitments
to the environment as in the case of the Montreal protocol and
agreements signed in Kyoto. Canada, the creator of the RADARSAT,
the remarkable satellite that has given this nation world
leadership in managing the Earth from space. Today, RADARSAT is
being used to manage floods as it did in the Manitoba Red River
floods, support disaster management operations as it did in Kobe,
Japan and provide a greater understanding of the effects of war
on local populations and environments as it did in Vietnam.
Our investments in space advance science discovery. Through
experiments being performed by the world's space science
community, in which Canadian scientists are recognized for their
decisive role, we are learning more about the universe, the
effects of the sun on the Earth and how to exploit the unique
microgravity environment to obtain invaluable insight into the
cardiovascular system, bones, brain and effects of radiation on
human organisms.
Canadian space science experiments, for example, are addressing
human disorders including cancer and bone diseases such as
osteoporosis, an ailment that affects over one million Canadians.
1020
Our investment advances innovation and spinoffs in our everyday
lives. Today, we seem unaware of the fact that each time we turn
on the television, listen to the weather forecast, visit the
doctor, turn to our portable computers, pick up our car phone or
lace up our shock absorbing running shoes, we access products and
services that space has helped to advance. The list of products
and services is long and the positive contribution to the quality
of our lives is indeed real.
Our investment therefore also promotes a space industry which
employs thousands of Canadians and registers revenues of well
over $1.4 billion, of which, let me point out, 45% is in the form
of exports and is the largest among our space-faring nations.
As a result of Canada's industrial strategy whereby space
robotics and automation has become a strategic niche, our
industry has responded with innovative technologies that are
making their mark on the world all over. For example, a
Newfoundland company has developed a sensitive skin originally
developed for space robotic manipulators and is applying the
technology to prosthetics and the bumpers of cars to control the
deployment of air bags. All this is thanks to Canadian
innovation and the Canadian space program.
Other leading industrialized nations are turning to Canadian
expertise to help make their contribution to the space station
project a reality. EMS Technologies of Ottawa recently won a
$9.5 million contract from Mitsubishi of Japan to supply
electronics to Japan's contribution to the international space
station. Additional orders could bring the total contract up to
$24 million.
Above all, our commitment to the vibrant space sector is a
commitment to the nation's youth, our future scientists,
engineers and even our future astronauts.
The ratification of Bill C-4 is an important step to what has
been a long and beneficial international engagement for our
country. The third nation in the world, Canada was the first
non-super power to have a satellite in orbit. That was 35 years
ago.
Canada was the first nation in the world to have its own
domestic satellite telecommunications system linking Canadians in
every corner of our vast land.
Canada was the creator of the RADARSAT, the remarkable satellite
that has given Canada world leadership in managing Earth from
space.
Canada is home to an astronaut team whose expertise in space
exploration is recognized throughout the world.
Canada was the architect of the world famous Canadarm, a
technological marvel which has become a worldwide trademark for
Canada's excellence in high technology.
The legacy of Canadian achievements goes on and on, a legacy of
which all Canadians can feel justifiably very proud.
What of the future? In many ways, space is the national
railroad of the next century, linking all Canadians from sea to
sea, uniting Canadians throughout space.
As we usher in Bill C-4, we direct attention to Canada's
remarkable history of achievements in space and future of
boundless opportunities. The Canadian space program and Canada's
active participation to the international space station will
continue to be an essential building block and indeed a highlight
for the future of our country's social and economic well-being.
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Ref.): Madam Speaker, it
is indeed my pleasure to speak on Bill C-4 which implements an
agreement that Canada signed last year with the United States,
Japan, Russia and 11 countries of the European Union.
The agreement formulates Canada's participation in the
international space station. The space station is a bold and
exciting project which has nations around the world working
together in a spirit of co-operation rather than rivalry.
It is the largest science and technology project in the history
of humanity and Canadians should be proud of the role we are
playing and that we will continue to play a key role in its
development.
1025
In its final form, the space station will cover an area as large
as a football field. My colleague was just asking whether it was
an American or Canadian football field size. I do not know the
answer to that question, but I know that it will weigh over 450
tonnes and orbit the Earth at an average altitude of 400
kilometres. It will be clearly visible in the night sky as it
orbits the Earth. I am not sure whether Canadians will be able
to see the new generation space arm and hand that is going to be
there, but they will certainly see it assemble the space station
as it is being constructed.
The habitation models and laboratories will accommodate a
permanent international crew of seven astronauts dedicated to
advancements in areas of biotechnology, engineering, Earth
observation and telecommunications.
I am pleased to say today that the Reform Party will be
supporting the speedy passage of the bill. I recognize there is
some urgency in getting the bill passed quickly to meet the
commitments that we have already made to our partners on the
project.
The leader of the Reform Party is a keen follower of space
technology. He expresses keen interest in the project and I know
he wants it to go ahead. Many of my colleagues have the same
kind of keen interest in this area. I have had the opportunity
of touring the Houston Space Science Centre two years ago. I
really enjoyed that experience and marvelled at the technology
that we have achieved in the world in just some 30 years.
I will go back to a comment made by the parliamentary secretary
when he talked about national railways. A distant relative of
mine, George Stephenson in England in the early 1800s, was the
man who invented the first steam locomotive and the railway that
opened up the world. The innovation that happened as a result of
the railway is what we are seeing today in a new forum, the new
forum being space technology and a very exciting one at that.
Before I get into a bit of the background, I just want to say
that if the bill were to come to all stages today we would be
very much in favour of it passing quickly. Reform will be
supporting the bill.
I will provide listeners with a bit of background as to when and
how the space station got its start. Back in January of 1984, the
President of the United States directed NASA to develop and place
in orbit a permanently manned space station. At the time,
President Ronald Reagan invited friends and allies to participate
in its development and share the benefits.
At the Quebec Summit in March 1985, Canada accepted this
invitation and confirmed Canada's interest in co-operating at the
summit meeting in Washington the following year. At the same
time, various other countries expressed interest in the project
and over the years signed memorandums of understanding.
It was recognized that Russia could greatly enhance the
capabilities of the space station because it had a long list of
accomplishments in the area of human space flight and long
duration missions. On December 6, 1993, Russia was invited to
take part in the project. Arrangements were then made for
co-operation on human space flight activities, including the
Russian-U.S. Mir shuttle program, to prepare for the the building
of the space station.
On January 29, 1998, these countries got together and signed the
Civil International Space Station Agreement which established a
framework for the design, development, operation and utilization
of the space station.
Today we have Bill C-4 at second reading which seeks to
implement the agreement that we signed last year to make this
possible.
I will speak for a moment about the agreement itself and the
bill that implements it. The international agreement was signed
by Canada, the United States, Japan, Russia and 11 European
countries. It contains 28 articles and an annex which summarizes
the tasks of the various countries that they have committed
themselves to. In Canada's case, the Canadian Space Agency will
provide three elements: a mobile servicing centre, a special
purposes dexterous manipulator, the hand, the new generation
Canadarm and space station-unique ground elements.
The articles lay out the objectives and scope of the agreement,
international rights and obligations, ownership of the elements
of the equipment and the management of the space station itself.
As well, aspects of the design and development are covered: the
right to provide qualified crew, transportation, the right of
access to the space station and the provision of a communications
network.
Each partner will bear the cost of fulfilling its respective
responsibilities under the agreement, including sharing, on an
equitable basis, the common systems operation costs, the
activities attributed to the operation of the space station as a
whole.
1030
An important article in my view is article 19 which deals with
the exchange of data and goods. Each partner to the agreement
agrees to transfer all technical data and goods considered
necessary for the fulfilment of the partners' responsibilities.
Bill C-4 contains provisions in clause 7 that give the
government the power to force companies, individuals and third
parties who are not in direct contractual relationship to the
crown to release information related to the space agency. This
power is necessary in the event that a company working under
contract to the government on the project gets bought out by
another company and is unwilling to honour the company's
contractual obligations. This would severely affect its ability
to operate. Therefore there is a need for clause 7.
Clause 8 provides safeguards to ensure the documents that are so
produced are not unduly communicated to other parties. While the
exchange of information and scientific data is crucial to the
success and successful development of the entire project, the
protection of intellectual property rights is also important. To
ensure that intellectual property rights are protected, the
agreement contains article 21 which states:
For the purposes of intellectual property law, an activity
occurring in or on a space station flight element shall be deemed
to have occurred only in the territory of the partner state of
that element's registry.
This gives some protection to those countries that are
conducting research and development there with new products. They
will have some legal parameters around the product they produce
in space. It will belong to them.
Normal patent procedures will apply. That means that a person
or entity first filing a patent is the owner of that intellectual
property. That is a very important point. With so many partners
working on this space station, it is important that there is
protection for those partners in regard to their research and
development.
The bill also contains amendments to the criminal code. These
amendments ensure that any criminal act which is committed in
space by a Canadian crew member falls under Canadian law. That
Canadian would not be tried under the law of the United States or
Russia for example.
That brings me to Canada's involvement in this station. Recently
Julie Payette became the first Canadian to board the space
station but that will not be the end by any means. In 2000 Marc
Garneau will participate in his third space mission as a crew
member of a shuttle mission. He will be followed by Chris
Hadfield who will install Canada's space station robotic
manipulator system, the next generation Canadarm and the main
element of the mobile servicing system called MSS for short. This
goes to the building of the space station itself and enables the
space station and its partners to construct the space station
once the new robotics is in place with the new Canadarm and hand.
That will provide the necessary infrastructure to do the work to
put the space station together. Once installed, the MSS will
move around the space station doing assembly and repair work.
Canada is also contributing to a vision system for the operators
of the remote manipulator who must operate the robotic arm from
inside the windowless space station, no small task I would
suggest. On the ground, the MSS operations complex at the
Canadian Space Agency in Saint Hubert, Quebec will plan missions,
monitor the condition of the remote manipulator and train space
station crew in its use.
The cost of designing, developing, operating and launching the
MSS into orbit is approximately $1.4 billion over 20 years. That
covers the period of 1984 to 2004. It costs approximately $3 per
Canadian taxpayer per year. Canada's contribution is relatively
small at just 2.5% but it is important nonetheless.
The 1999 federal budget provided the Canadian Space Agency with
$430 million in new funds over three years which stabilized the
agency's budget at $300 million per year starting in the year
2002-03.
That brings me to the present and future benefits the Canadian
Space Station and our involvement might bring Canadians. The
scientific benefit for Canadians from the space station will be
our ability to monitor Earth, to study our environment including
agricultural crop monitoring, that is, if there are any Canadian
farmers and farm crops left to monitor in the future. However, it
is an important aspect and I think it will deliver important
benefits.
It will have the ability to monitor the Canadian Arctic ice pack
so that there will be aid to Canadian ships navigating in Arctic
waters.
1035
Close to 90% of Canada's investment is going out in contracts to
Canadian firms. The rest is going to universities. Since 1987
over 150 contracts have been let for automation and robotics
technology development.
During the space station's estimated 10 year lifespan, Canada
will be able to expand its research in microgravity with
applications to human disorders such as osteoporosis and cancer.
Canada will also continue its research into protein
crystallization in space which will be a big aid to medical
research in Canada.
The technologies that already resulted from our space
involvement include the first robotic refuelling station. This
was developed by a firm in British Columbia in partnership with
Shell. As well, a Quebec firm has applied space expertise to
develop a digital imaging system for X-rays which eliminates the
need for photographic films. In addition, a company in
Newfoundland has developed a sensitive skin which was originally
developed for space robotic manipulators and is now being applied
to artificial limbs.
Many Canadian firms have successfully entered international
markets by landing contracts based on the expertise they gained
on the various aspects of the space project. Other firms are
helping partners in other countries with their own contribution
to the space project. For example, EMS Technologies of Ottawa
recently won a $9.5 million contract from Mitsubishi to supply
electronics to Japan's contribution to the space station. There
is an ongoing benefit.
It is clear that Canada's involvement in space is producing
tremendous returns. On our own we would not be able to develop
or fund a project of this magnitude, but in co-operation with our
peace-loving partners the potential for a meaningful contribution
and rewarding spinoffs is great. I suggest it will be no less
important than technologies in the industrial revolution such as
the innovations which led to the discovery of the steam
locomotive and the railway itself.
Perhaps most important of all is that Canada's young people will
follow Canada's achievements in space, thereby sparking their
interest in the fields of science and technology. We do not need
to be reminded that our future prosperity lies in our ability to
encourage pursuit of knowledge for those that follow behind us.
On that note, I will end my speech. I want to inform the House
that the Reform Party is supporting this bill in all stages. We
do not want to delay its speedy passage in any way.
[Translation]
Mr. Pierre Brien (Témiscamingue, BQ): Madam Speaker, it is my
turn to speak to Bill C-4, an act to implement the Agreement
among the Government of Canada, Governments of Member States of
the European Space Agency, the Government of Japan, the
Government of the Russian Federation and the Government of the
United States of America concerning Co-operation on the Civil
International Space Station and to make related amendments to
other acts.
Here we are at the end of a millennium, and when we stop to
think about it, the rate of progress of space research and the
discovery of space has been phenomenal, especially in recent
years. From the moment man first started to go into space, it
was only a matter of decades before a space station was built,
as well as an orbiting station, permitting astronauts to go into
space for months at a time to conduct tests and experiments.
Obviously that advances our research considerably and provides
opportunities for important discoveries. It also raises—we
have to be honest about it—questions by people about the cost
of these projects and results.
It remains very difficult to measure, but it is clear that the
effects are very significant.
The potential for discoveries there remains infinite.
1040
The research done on the orbiting station will be carried out in
a specific climate of research in which the law of gravity does
not apply in the same way and where the work will be done in a
context other than that on Earth. Therefore, it is very clear
that this opens windows of opportunity for incredible research.
In addition, all of the technology needed to build a station, to
do this work, to go into space, is clearly becoming
transmittable and reusable for other purposes, I would say in a
more down to Earth fashion.
In order to put into perspective the progress that has been made
possible by this use and discovery of space, let us look at the
whole field of communications. It would be hard to imagine how
information could be moved rapidly without all those satellites
we now have.
A great deal of money had to be invested in the technology for
launching these satellites, putting them in service, recovering
them if necessary, ensuring they are operating properly,
determining their lifespans, and so on.
Now, a new window has opened with the international space
station, the lifespan of which is predicted at ten years or so,
although according to some sources, it could be much longer than
that.
It must be remembered that the MIR station was expected to last
about five years, but was in service for over ten. It is fairly
obvious therefore that the space station will last longer than
the predicted ten years.
The involvement of the Government of Canada has been
considerable, compared to our country's financial capacity.
Clearly, the main contribution comes essentially from the U.S.,
which plays the lead role in this project. Russia also is
heavily involved, which raises questions about the future,
knowing the very hard times Russia is going through financially.
Obviously, the initial participation required of them was much
greater than it will be in the future, but there are still some
grey areas, particularly because of Russia's role and its
financial difficulties, which are raising some questions.
Assembly has now started and we are very, very proud that a
fellow Quebecer went on the mission and played a part—I am
referring to Julie Payette—and we want to congratulate her on her
amazing career. We are very proud of everything she has done.
Nor would we wish to forget another Quebec astronaut, Marc
Garneau, who also went into space, as well as the Canadian
astronauts, including those who will soon help to install the
orbital station's Canadarm, which will play a key role in
assembly operations.
A Canadian system will also play a pivotal role in the repair
and maintenance of the orbital station.
So, even though our participation is modest and scaled to what
we can do as Quebecers and Canadians, we can take pride in
contributing to a project such as this one, which is furthering
the development of technology. No one knows yet how significant
the discoveries made at the station will be.
With all these partnerships, the next step is to adopt some very
down to Earth legislation, such as this bill stipulating which
criminal law will apply in the case of an incident, or offence
as it would become, inside the orbital station. This brings us
to the question of which legislation will apply in space.
This is one of the issues addressed by Bill C-4.
I also wish to point out that Bill C-4 flows from an agreement
signed by several countries that appears as a schedule to the
bill. In this connection, however, I have one criticism to make
of the government. Even though we are in favour of the bill, it
is still a bit regrettable that these agreements were not
approved by parliament.
Since we support the bill, we therefore cannot say that the
agreement should not have been debated in this place. It should
have been approved by the House of Commons and not simply
signed.
1045
The Liberal tendency in this area since they have been in
government is somewhat deplorable. Moreover, my colleague from
Beauharnois—Salaberry has introduced a private member's bill,
C-214, the purpose of which is to ensure that treaties are passed
and ratified by parliament. Clearly we would have liked this to
have been the case for Bill C-4.
To describe the contents of the treaty appended to this bill as
its schedule, I could list the signatory states.
schedule
Obviously, there is the Government of Canada, and the
governments of the Federal Republic of Germany, Belgium,
Denmark, Spain, the French Republic, the Italian Republic, the
Kingdom of Norway, the Kingdom of the Netherlands, the United
Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Sweden,
Switzerland, all of these being member states of the European
Space Agency, the Government of Japan, the Russian Federation
and the United States of America.
In all, there are about
fifteen signatories. The agreement was signed nearly two years
ago, and calls for its terms to be implemented within two years
of initial signature, and for the necessary legislative measures
to be passed within two years.
At the present time, not all countries have initiated the
process.
Russia is one of these, which is why I referred just now to
questions and concerns being raised about its future role in the
space station. There are already very specific agreements with
Russia; the partnership is not the same as with the other member
states. Russia has its own space in the space station.
For example, Canada's laboratory time will be a percentage of
the non-Russian space. The Russians have their own space, their
own module, laboratory and equipment. There is, however, an
agreement on co-operation between the Russians and the other
partners, but Russia still represents a potential cause of delay
because of its participation and the related funding.
The articles of this agreement—I will not read all of it, as
members will find it appended to the bill—first define the
purpose and scope of the bill.
Subsequently, they set out the international rights and
obligations. Definitions are given. The following are also
mentioned: cooperating agencies, registration, jurisdiction,
controls, ownership of elements and equipment—which must be
defined in such a partnership—management, detailed design and
project development, station utilization, as well as operation.
There are also references to rules governing the crews,
transportation, telecommunications relating to the orbiting
station, project evolution, funding, which in all projects, is a
key element, a cross-waiver of liability—the countries have
agreed to sign such a waiver—and so on. Then we move on to the
sections on customs, a convention on responsibility, data and
goods and exchange and the conditions for withdrawing from the
agreement, should a member ever decided to withdraw.
There are other sections on intellectual property, since this is
very important where research is concerned. In space, there is
a notion of intellectual property which may be debated and
become the subject of litigation on occasion. However, many
applications of research done in space will be used in
additional research on Earth. Discoveries will be made there
for basic research too, which will find application in other
research projects that will be carried out here, back on Earth.
1050
It must also be understood that, even though the astronauts will
be there for periods of between three and six months, this is a
short time, since research is being carried out over the longer
term. Some research will be done there, tested and carried out,
but it will be developed much further back on Earth.
There are also provisions on criminal justice. This is what I
was talking about earlier and they are to be found in the bill
as well. The measures on criminal justice pertain to any
incidents that might occur on board the orbiting station.
It is fairly straightforward. If ever a Canadian astronaut were
to commit an offence, he would be subject to Canadian law,
except in the case of homicide.
In the case of a sponsored astronaut, such as a Brazilian
sponsored by the United States, American law would apply. That
is our understanding of the bill, anyway. There are also
sections on the entry into force, amendments, and operative
effect between the parties.
That about sums up what is in the agreement signed almost two
years ago. As 1999 draws to a close, its adoption is near.
Since some time has passed, the signed agreement probably could
have been introduced here first and formally adopted, after
which Bill C-4, which establishes the related measures, could
have been passed.
Parliamentarians could thus have commented on the obligations
with which they agreed and those with which they did not agree.
We are not challenging the obligations. We are saying that we
do not like the precedent, which has denied the House an
opportunity to comment. It is true that we are having our say
now with respect to the agreement included in the schedule to
the bill, but the bill per se has to do with its own clauses.
The agreement as such is contained in the schedule.
Earlier, I mentioned costs and the involvement of the federal
government in the orbital station. The space agency itself has
an annual budget of about $300 million. This is the funding the
agency receives from the government.
Here, we are talking about a forecast of $1.4 billion.
One could always argue about the spinoffs, but it is believed
that they could reach $6 billion and include some 70,000 jobs,
on a yearly basis, for the duration of the project. That is a
lot of money and a lot of jobs.
Even if the spinoffs are not as great as anticipated, we are
still talking about significant amounts of money that would help
businesses, in Quebec and in Canada, achieve some degree of
success. Quebec is doing rather well in the aerospace industry.
The space agency, which is located in Saint-Hubert, is a very
good thing for the aerospace industry.
The work done by companies in these sectors and the contracts
that they can get with regard to orbiting station projects allow
them to develop a critical mass of researchers and people to do
the work. It also allows these companies to use their products
for civilian applications.
Some members alluded to numerous technological, medical or
scientific achievements and discoveries resulting from
initiatives that were originally funded through aerospace
projects, whether past ones or the one that we are discussing.
Very clearly, we will support this bill. I know that discussions
took place to proceed quickly. We certainly have no intention of
delaying the adoption of Bill C-4. However, it would be good to
still have the legislation go through the normal process, in
other words, to have it referred to a committee after second
reading, so that members can get answers to their questions.
1055
Some of us here took part in Space Agency and departmental
training sessions on the bill. The Standing Committee on
Industry committee will be able to go into the matter further,
examining everything related to it, such as timeframes and
budgets. It is normal after all to take the time needed in
order to ensure that it is passed.
It is therefore normal for the bill to go through the regular
stages. If the government had wanted the bill passed more
quickly, it ought to have convened the House earlier.
I will conclude now by telling hon. members that we will be
voting in favour of Bill C-4 on second reading. We also intend
to support it on third reading. There are a few questions we
will want to go into in committee, including the meeting of
deadlines. We will have the opportunity to discuss matters with
those who appear before the committee, particularly Space Agency
and departmental officials. This bill will eventually come back
to us for the third reading stage. I believe the committee will
ultimately move to accept it and return it to the House. It is
our intention to again support it.
My congratulations to all those who work on projects relating to
the development of the space station, whether Quebecers,
Canadians, Americans or others. Who knows, one day one of us,
or a friend or family member, or one of our constituents, may
benefit from the discoveries resulting from these research
projects.
Science will show us all the potential future effects of this
undertaking, and I must say that the possibilities are endless.
In conclusion, I wish to again indicate our intention to vote in
favour of Bill C-4.
[English]
The Speaker: My colleague, I see you seeking the floor.
You will have the floor when we return to the debate.
It is almost 11 o'clock and rather than have you begin and break
up your speech, if you do not mind, we will go to Statements by
Members.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[Translation]
CANADA'S ECONOMY
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
more good economic news this morning.
Statistics Canada reported that economic activity continued to
grow vigorously during August, by .5%. This is the 13th
consecutive monthly increase.
Since October 1993, when the Liberal government returned to
office, over 1.7 million jobs have been created.
The opposition parties obviously do not like to hear good
economic news for Canada.
We must not lose sight of the fact that governments have, among
other things, the mission to create favourable conditions to
encourage new investment and promote job creation.
In conjunction with other news along the same lines as the
stable and sustainable revival of Canada's economy, the results
made public by Statistics Canada confirm one fact: the Liberal
government is doing a good job.
* * *
[English]
ROBERT MUNDELL
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
I rise in the House today to pay tribute to Dr. Robert Mundell
from Maple Ridge, British Columbia, in my riding of
Dewdney—Alouette.
After graduating from Maple Ridge High School, Dr. Mundell went
on to earn his BA from the University of British Columbia and
Ph.D. from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. He is now
a professor at Columbia University in New York.
Earlier this month the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences awarded
Dr. Mundell the Nobel Prize in economics, in recognition of his
analysis of exchange rates and their effect on monetary policy.
The academy described his work as inspiring generations of
researchers and forming the core of teaching in international
macroeconomics.
I hope all members of the House will join with me, the city of
Maple Ridge, and all Canadians in congratulating Dr. Robert
Mundell on his extraordinary achievement.
* * *
BREAST CANCER
Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, one in
nine Canadian women can expect to develop breast cancer in her
lifetime. Today, the last day the House will sit during Breast
Cancer Awareness Month, is an excellent opportunity for
reflection on our successes and on the work still ahead.
This year Burlington hosted its third annual Run for the Cure.
Our most successful run yet, 3,000 people ran, walked and
volunteered. Some $200,000 was raised for the Canadian Breast
Cancer Foundation to support research, education, diagnosis and
treatment.
Our community has a wonderful organization with breast cancer
support services, making a difference for families living with
breast cancer.
1100
Breast Cancer Awareness Month is an important opportunity to
celebrate the survivors and remember the ones we have lost.
Their strength and courage is an inspiration.
The message is clear. Early detection is vital, especially when
accompanied with annual mammographies. We must remind the women
we love. We must support them in the difficult days of
treatment, and we must support research. Together we can beat
this disease.
* * *
PORT COLBORNE
Mr. John Maloney (Erie—Lincoln, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
would like to take this opportunity to congratulate all residents
of the city of Port Colborne in my riding of Erie—Lincoln for
that city's recognition as being one of the best in Ontario in
which to raise a family. This municipality of 19,000 people has
the smallest proportion of children falling through the cracks,
according to health and academic measures.
A recent article from The Globe and Mail confirmed that
Port Colborne has “the highest proportion of students meeting or
exceeding provincial standards in mathematics, reading and
writing”. In fact, over 97% of our grade 3 students are at or
above the provincial standard for reading.
Port Colborne has a “woven-ness”, a strong sense of belonging,
where young and old work together for common goals, where people
look out for their neighbours and where one does not have to look
far to find a helping hand. Port Colborne residents are
Canadians in the true sense of the word. It is a caring and
sharing community.
* * *
ROYAL CANADIAN DRAGOONS
Mr. Hec Clouthier (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, it is indeed a distinct honour to speak on the eve
of a monumental milestone in the apocalyptic annals of Canadian
history.
One hundred years ago tomorrow, on October 30, 1899, 1,000
Canadian soldiers left Quebec City to fight in the South African
Boer War. It was Canada's very first overseas mission. There
were soldiers representing all seven provinces at the time.
The Royal Canadian Dragoons, who are now based at CFB Petawawa,
in my great riding of Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, represent one
of this country's oldest military units. Just last week the RCDs
received millennium funding to restore the 116 year old King's
Banner which was used to rally the troops during the Boer War.
It will be on display at the Base Petawawa Museum.
I cannot begin to describe the diligent dedication of those Boer
War veterans, and the thousands of Canadian men and women who
bravely represent Canada as peacekeepers throughout the world.
* * *
UNICEF
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Sunday
is Halloween and again this year UNICEF will have over two
million tiny volunteers collecting coins in support of less
fortunate children around the world.
The money collected empowers our kids by enabling them to take
action and help other children. Funds collected in this country
will support programs like children's immunization. Since 1980
this program alone has saved the lives of over 20 million
children.
Other programs include registering children at birth, providing
access to safe drinking water and nutritious food. Children will
also be given the opportunity to learn to read.
Canadians are generous and I ask that this tradition continue on
Sunday night when people see a volunteer child of UNICEF. Every
bit helps to save the life of a child in need. Together we will
make a difference.
* * *
PUBLIC SERVANTS
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise on behalf of our federal public servants to raise their
concerns about wrongdoing, corruption and waste in our
government. There are numerous complaints about corruption in
our foreign missions, and allegations regarding immigration
fraud, money laundering and drug trafficking.
Our hard-working and caring federal employees have nowhere to
turn except to pass on their information in a brown envelope.
There is no incentive or motivation for these people to speak
out. In fact, I have numerous examples where they are punished,
their careers are ruined and even the health of the
whistleblowers and their families are affected.
Canadians want our public servants to be not only protected, but
rewarded for uncovering and putting a stop to waste and
corruption. Canadians know that this government does not protect
our civil servants. I will soon be introducing a private
member's bill to protect and reward whistleblowers.
* * *
THE OTTAWA SENATORS
Mr. David Pratt (Nepean—Carleton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Ottawa area residents were generally pleased by yesterday's
re-announcement that the province will allow property tax relief
for the Corel Centre. That will provide some, but only some, tax
relief for the Ottawa Senators.
However, as Senators' owner Rod Bryden has said, “This issue is
all about tax fairness”. Where is the fairness in requiring the
Senators to pay for their own exit ramp off Highway 417? Where
is the fairness in declaring a Senators game non-Canadian and
subjecting it to a 10% amusement tax? Where is the fairness in
using their games to make money on a lottery without giving them
a share?
Local provincial minister John Baird should get his facts
straight when he says that the federal government has not put
anything on the table. This government has contributed $6
million to the Senators, along with allowing the benefits
associated with “distress preferred shares”. Come on, Ontario,
you can do better.
* * *
1105
[Translation]
MINISTER OF TRANSPORT
Mr. Ghislain Fournier (Manicouagan, BQ): Mr. Speaker, highway
389 runs through part of the riding of Manicouagan. The
construction in its present state puts those using the road at
risk.
Twice—in November 1997 and November 1998—the Minister of Transport
has mentioned that an agreement could be renewed to complete the
construction work on this road, if funds were available.
There is no shortage of surpluses.
If the minister had the political will to act, the money could
be available, especially since the minister invested $300
million on the highway through Labrador, which is, in a way, the
extension of highway 389.
The people of Manicouagan are entitled to safe highways. This
House must be aware of their impatience at the minister's
inaction in this matter.
* * *
[English]
THE PHILIPPINES
Mr. Rey D. Pagtakhan (Winnipeg North—St. Paul, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Speech from the Throne, which opened the second
session of the 36th Parliament, speaks of Canada's place in the
world as an outward looking country with a trade oriented
economy.
It gives me a special sense of pride when my country of birth,
the Philippines, experiences Canada's broadened economic vision
at a time when our two nations are celebrating half a century of
diplomatic relations.
Recently team Canada '97, led by the Prime Minister, was in the
Philippines. This past August the Secretary of State for
Asia-Pacific led another trade mission to the country and
witnessed the official opening of the Canadian consulate in the
city of Cebu, a beautiful place where my wife spent her formative
years.
Officials from Cebu were in Toronto yesterday to sign a twin
city agreement. We acknowledge their presence, along with
Philippine Consul General Susan Castrence, in the gallery and
welcome them to watch our proceedings in the House this morning.
* * *
CONDITIONAL SENTENCING
Mr. Chuck Cadman (Surrey North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, in
1995 the government introduced conditional sentencing and despite
warnings from the Reform Party it refused to limit the “serve
your sentence at home” policy to first-time, non-violent
offenders.
Despite the inconsistent and lenient treatment of the provision
by the courts, the government still refuses to restrict this
legislation. Like most problems with our justice system, the
government prefers to force the courts to resolve issues without
direction from parliament.
This week a 42 year old individual pleaded guilty to conspiracy
in trafficking cocaine. Mr. Justice Norman Douglas called
cocaine an insidious drug which ruins people's lives and results
in more spinoff crime. But did he remove the individual from the
community to protect the citizens? No, he imposed an eight month
sentence at home. The individual must obey a 9 p.m. curfew,
unless working, and report to police every Saturday morning. That
sort of punishment does nothing to discourage individuals from
trafficking in serious drugs. I even wonder if that individual
can avoid the curfew by arguing that the selling of cocaine is a
form of work.
Canadians have waited for over four years for the government to
address its screw-up on conditional sentencing, but unfortunately
the government fails to admit its mistakes.
* * *
CANADA CUSTOMS
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr. Speaker, on
Wednesday several Latin American labour leaders were detained at
Pearson airport as they tried to enter Canada to attend the
Labour Forum of the America's, a conference hosted by the
Canadian Labour Congress.
Many of those who were detained were people of colour and
workers who appeared to have been deliberately singled out,
pulled from lineups at customs and then detained, grilled,
badgered, harassed and spoken to in an abusive way by immigration
officials.
Meanwhile, leaders of the business community entering Canada to
attend the business forum on free trade had their visas and fees
waived so they could enter the country hassle free.
What a blatant double standard. What an insult to our guests
from the international trade union movement and what an insult to
working people in general.
I am outraged and embarrassed that the government has treated my
international colleagues so shabbily at our international customs
points.
* * *
[Translation]
NUCLEAR ENERGY
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, within
the Liberal government, there is an apostle of things nuclear
who would like to see more nuclear power plants and waste.
However, this is an unexpected apostle. It is not the Minister
of Industry, nor the Minister of Natural Resources, as one might
expect. It is, instead, the Minister of the Environment, the
very person who should be concerned about sources of clean
energy and sustainable development.
At a meeting of environment ministers at the beginning of the
month, the Canadian minister presented nuclear energy as a
reasonable solution to the problem of greenhouse gases.
He even advocated the export of Canadian technology to the rest
of the world.
1110
At the moment, there are over 23 million kilograms of uranium
waste no one knows what to do with. In order to fulfil his
mandate as the Minister of the Environment, the apostle should
start worrying about the management of this waste, rather than
promoting nuclear energy.
* * *
[English]
YOUNG OFFENDERS
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, I rise
today in support of tougher penalties for young offenders.
In the spring of this year two young men, aged 16 and 17, forced
their way into the home of Stuart and Ruth Hebb. One viciously
beat 90 year old Mr. Hebb, stopping only after he was
unconscious. Both then turned their abuse upon 74 year old Mrs.
Hebb, who was struck and threatened with the same fate as her
husband.
Because these young offenders tore the phone from the wall the
elderly couple waited, one victim too injured to move and the
other too traumatized to leave her husband's side, until help
arrived many hours later.
The punishment in this case has been a mere slap on the wrist,
with one of the offenders getting three years in custody and the
other two years in custody and a year of probation.
The Hebbs, on the other hand, have received a life sentence.
Their lives can never be the same. The sanctuary of their home
was invaded and their safety in the community questioned. They
live in constant fear of future retaliation; not a pleasant way
to spend what should be their golden years.
* * *
YOUTH CRIMINAL JUSTICE ACT
Mr. Roy Cullen (Etobicoke North, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Canada's crime rate has decreased for seven consecutive years.
In 1998 the crime rate was 22% lower than in 1991 and the lowest
it has been in 20 years. This decrease is reflected in all major
categories of violent and property crimes.
This is great news for Canadians and it confirms the fact that
Canadians are safer in their homes and on the streets today.
The reason I stand to remind the House of these statistics is to
counter the impression that the official opposition consistently
tries to spread across this land, a view that would frighten
Canadians, a view that they hope will improve their declining
political fortunes.
The facts speak for themselves and Canadians will not be fooled.
Our government will continue to work vigorously to prevent crime.
The youth criminal justice act will enhance accountability in our
system and ensure that youth who violently and repeatedly break
the law will be dealt with.
I would like to thank our Liberal government for its hard work
to ensure the safety of all Canadians.
* * *
EMPLOYMENT EQUITY
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, back
in 1994 we warned the government that its employment equity bill
would cause reverse discrimination because it relied on the
voluntary self-identification of minorities in the public
service.
In March I had a call from one of my constituents who was told
by the Public Service Commission that job applications were only
being accepted from visible minorities. Although she was very
distraught and upset at the time, my constituent had the presence
of mind to ask for a telephone number for a supervisor, so I was
able to confirm that this serious and unwarranted reverse
discrimination had taken place.
How can this be employment equity? The Liberals' ill-advised
legislation now has men pitted against men, women pitted against
men, women pitted against other women, and all of it based on
ethnic background. It is a guaranteed recipe for disharmony.
The government refused to see it at the time and it still cannot
see it.
There are none so blind as those who cannot see.
* * *
COMMUNITY ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
Mrs. Karen Kraft Sloan (York North, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the York Region and the municipalities of East Gwillimbury and
Georgina, in partnership with Human Resources Development Canada,
have established the East Gwillimbury-Georgina Community
Investment Council.
The investment council has been established to foster local
economic growth by providing financial assistance to community
groups and local businesses. Many businesses in these
communities in my riding of York North have benefited from
financial support and are starting or growing their businesses.
Human Resources Development Canada, York Region, East
Gwillimbury and Georgina should be congratulated for their
innovative and creative approach to supporting community economic
development.
* * *
VISIBLE MINORITIES
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
hiring of visible minorities within the federal public service
has been at crisis proportions for some time. But is it
improving? No. This Liberal government, for all of its good
words, seems to be intent on making matters worse for Canadians
of colour.
The Canadian Human Rights Commission's analysis of this
government's performance in 1998 shows an abysmal record. Out of
12,420 term staff positions filled last year, only 418 were
visible minorities. That is only 3%. Out of 2,800 permanent
jobs filled, only 184 were visible minorities. But with 685
visible minority positions lost, the Liberal government has had
a net loss of 501 employees, or a decrease of 18%.
This is a slap in the face to all Canadians of colour. It flies
in the face of the throne speech's words of support for
diversity.
It is yet another invisible barrier thrown up to prevent visible
minority youth from aspiring to serve their community and country
in the federal public service.
1115
Finally, what is the government's response? More task forces,
more boards, more inquiries and less visible minorities in the
public service. Shame, shame.
* * *
FISHERIES
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Tobique—Mactaquac, PC): Mr. Speaker,
for years tensions have been escalating over who has the right to
participate in the lobster fishery.
The historic 1990 Sparrow decision recognized the rights of
aboriginal people to conduct a food fishery. This important
supreme court decision should have forewarned the federal
government of the likely success of further aboriginal challenges
based on the 1760 treaties.
It would seem to me and most Canadians to be totally
incomprehensible that the Liberal government would not have had
an alternative strategy prepared in advance to respond to the
recent supreme court ruling in the Donald Marshall Jr. decision.
The Liberal government had well over six years to prepare for
any possible supreme court verdict and the fact that it was ill
prepared for the violent reactions that were witnessed within New
Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland is nothing less than a
dereliction of its duties.
The federal fisheries minister has a duty to protect the
industry and as such the future livelihoods of both native and
non-native fishers. His failure to act decisively and impose new
regulations that would address the supreme court decision has led
directly to the violence we witnessed over the past few weeks.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
TAXATION
Mr. Richard M. Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, for six years the Reform Party has stood
in the House and demanded that the government cut taxes. Its
standard response is “We are doing it”. All the while it has
been raising taxes for Canadians every year.
The Toronto-Dominion Bank is only the latest to agree with us,
that the government has been gouging Canadian taxpayers.
Why does the government continue to take more and more and more
taxes from Canadian workers and businesses every year? Why does
it do it?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, why do Reform Party members engage in their questions in
acts of wilful blindness?
Their blindness prevents them from seeing that in the last two
budgets we have legislated tax cuts for each and every Canadian
worth billions and billions of dollars, and we will continue to
do so.
Mr. Richard M. Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, this is an amazing response. Every year
the government takes more taxes from Canadians, up $40 billion
since 1993. Canadians are suffering. They cannot make ends meet
under this burdensome government tax burden.
Thirty-eight per cent of all income in the country is gobbled up
by the government. How can the government stand there and
continue to say that it is cutting taxes when all the time it is
raising taxes? All the evidence is there. What is wrong with
the government? Does it not get it?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Reform Party obviously does not get it. I challenge
the member to show where in the budgets of the last two years any
tax increases have been legislated.
He cannot do that when it comes to individual Canadians because
the facts are that taxes have been cut and they will continue to
be cut.
Mr. Richard M. Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, this is truly amazing. Ask any Canadian
taxpayer if they are paying more taxes today than ever before
under the Liberal government. Their answer will be yes, they
are.
The Liberals are ripping off $40 billion more in taxes from
Canadians. If they had one good reason we could understand, but
all the time they have cut health care. They have cut money for
education, and now they are even refusing to help prairie
farmers.
They are pretending to cut taxes but they are raising taxes. Why
do they not stop pretending and start cutting taxes for real?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member's questions remind me of that old song
The Great Pretender. They are pretending to be concerned
about ordinary Canadians. In their election platform they say
they want to cut health care and they want to cut services to
Canadians.
We are maintaining services to Canadians while at the same time
we are in fact, in our legislation, implementing our budgets,
cutting taxes for each and every Canadian. We are not pretending
like the Reform Party. We are doing something solid for
Canadians.
* * *
1120
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the public
accounts clearly show that the government is taking $40 billion
per year more in income tax than it did in 1983. Besides this,
Canadian employers and employees are being bilked to the tune of
$21 billion in overpayments through the EI fund.
The finance minister has no legislative authority to take this
excessive amount. He should reduce the EI premiums to $2.05 as
computed by the chief actuary of the fund. I know it is tough
for him, but why does the finance minister not just listen to
hard pressed, long suffering, overtaxed Canadians, and stop
taking—
The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Prime Minister.
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, if they wanted to listen to Canadians, why are they
preventing Canadians from taking part in the budgetary process
through their obstinate refusal to allow the finance committee to
travel to hear Canadians?
We want to listen to Canadians. They want us to stifle
Canadians. They are wrong. They are wrong.
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, government
members keep bragging that they have $4 billion from EI funds.
They are saying that we should thank them for taking $21 billion
instead of the $25 billion they could have taken. That is like
me thanking the robber who stole $21 from my wallet because he
did not take $25.
On behalf of thousands of Canadians, small business owners and
employees, will they reduce the premium to $2.05 and will they do
it today?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, over the past
couple of decades the EI fund has gone into deficit 10 times, for
a cumulative deficit of $14 billion. Guess who paid for this
deficit? All Canadian taxpayers did. Look at who is benefiting
today from the surplus we see there. It is all Canadian
taxpayers.
We eliminated the $42 billion deficit. We gave $16.5 billion in
tax cuts, $11.5 billion extra for health care, and $10 billion
extra for innovation, research and development. This is the
balanced approach we have adopted.
* * *
[Translation]
AIR TRANSPORTATION
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday, we were convinced that it was in June that the
Minister of Transport had set up the conditions that would allow
Onex to take over the Canadian airline industry by making an
illegal bid.
This morning, we learned that Onex was already
worried on May 10 about the stir its bid might cause and
suggested that the announcement be made during the parliamentary
recess.
Had the government already told Onex in May that its
announcement would cause the government embarrassment?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is
very simple. We began a process to encourage private sector
solutions to the problem of our airlines. This process has
already resulted in at least two bids, which are now being
considered by the airlines' shareholders.
Once they have made their decision, we will do our job of
examining the bids and making decisions that will be in the
public interest, the interest of all Canadians.
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, as the
Minister of Transport learned to his sorrow when he was the
Minister of National Defence, memos are helpful in understanding
the decision making process.
Already on February 19, Onex was
thinking about buying Air Canada shares and subsequently having
the 10% rule suspended.
What sort of links exist between Onex, its president Gerry
Schwartz—a contributor to Liberal Party coffers—and the government
that Onex would undertake an operation, assuming from the word
go that an act of parliament would be very easily amended?
Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
Minister of Transport was very clear when he appeared before the
Standing Committee on Transport: we have made no decision to
change the 10% rule.
1125
We are prepared to consider the situation in light of the
recommendations made by the Standing Committee on Transport. We
will not give preference to any of the bids to merge the
airlines, but we are prepared to act in the public interest.
Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
on Wednesday the Minister of Transport said the following in
this House “If I had not make a commitment on behalf of the
government yesterday to consider raising the 10% limit, that
would have favoured one other proposition. I certainly would
have been biased in that case”.
Can the Minister of Transport, who stage-managed this incredible
sequence of events, indicate which of the two players, Onex or
Air Canada, would have been the loser?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
believe the hon. member has misquoted the Minister of Transport.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Hon. Herb Gray: He did not promise to raise the 10% limit, he
merely said that he would consider the situation in light of the
recommendations of the Standing Committee on Transport,
especially in the public interest.
As the Minister of Transport has said, he has no desire to
favour one side over the other in the airline merger. We are
prepared to act when the time is right—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Laval Centre.
Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
despite his political savvy, the Deputy Prime Minister can also
make mistakes. I would point out to him that I have quoted
Wednesday's Hansard word for word.
Had the minister chosen to respect the law and remain silent,
can the Deputy Prime Minister tell us which one of the two would
have gained from it, Air Canada or Onex?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it
is obvious that we have not made a decision in favour of either
Onex or Air Canada at this time. We are awaiting decisions by
the shareholders of the two airlines, and we shall respect the
process.
We are going to respect the fact that the Standing Committee on
Transport will be sitting again, and I repeat that we are
prepared to act when the time is right, in the interests of all
Canadians.
* * *
[English]
AGRICULTURE
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, yesterday the Prime Minister of Canada ambushed the
premiers of Saskatchewan and Manitoba, saying he had new numbers
that showed the farm crisis was not as bad as thought on the
prairies. Yet he would not reveal those numbers publicly to the
premiers or anybody else in the country.
I want the Prime Minister to make a commitment to table those
numbers in the House or, better yet, to come out to Saskatchewan
and Manitoba and give the numbers to the people. If he does not
do that, is he saying that these are phantom numbers which do not
exist?
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, there has been no ambushing or sandbagging, in the
language the NDP likes to use.
As part of the normal activity of Agriculture and Agri-food
Canada working in co-operation with provincial agricultural
officials in the various provinces, there is a regular updating
of all farm income numbers. That work is ongoing as it normally
would be, not just every year but particularly in a year like
this one where there is a farm income problem of very serious
proportions. The work on those numbers, as I understand it, is
not fully complete.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I want a commitment from the government that when those
numbers are complete it will table them in the House.
I would also like to know why, at the same time the Prime
Minister says the numbers are improving, the situation is getting
better. The Canadian Wheat Board revised its predictions for
prices this year and dropped those predictions by 4% or 5%, which
means the situation is getting worse, not better?
How could the government be so out of touch when the Prime
Minister is saying that things are getting better on one hand and
the wheat board on the other hand says things are getting worse?
1130
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, in view of the fact that the work on the statistics is
done jointly by the federal government and the provinces, it is
obviously a very open and transparent process.
With respect to the advised PRO projection as it is called, from
the Canadian Wheat Board, that would apply to the year 2000
taxation year, not to 1999. In fact, in 1999 within the last
week the Canadian Wheat Board has been able to announce an
interim payment on the 1998-99 crop year and as of this morning,
an adjustment payment on the 1999-2000 year.
* * *
AIRLINE INDUSTRY
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr. Speaker,
one of the very troubling statements in Onex confidential
memorandums is a reference to a meeting with the Prime Minister's
chief of staff, Jean Pelletier. It goes on to say because “he
could advise us of the best time to approach both the Minister of
Transport and the Prime Minister's Office”.
I want to know, did the Prime Minister's chief of staff become
involved in any way, shape, or form in any discussions, or did he
advise anybody at Onex or Canadian Airlines on how to proceed
through the Minister of Transport?
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform the
member that department officials were informed of the original
Onex offer the night before it was made public. That is a common
practice and courtesy.
The hon. member should know that Air Canada also informed the
department officials of its original offer well in advance, in
fact, six weeks in advance of making it public.
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr.
Speaker, let me read another line. “Another key player is the
Clerk of the Privy Council, Mel Cappe. Mel Cappe will make the
final changes at the deputy minister level and knowing our plans
may influence his choices”.
I want to know, did the Clerk of the Privy Council become
involved in any way? Did he advise Onex or Canadian Airlines?
Did he discuss anything and if so, when?
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out that
the framework was presented by the minister this week. The
framework ensured the government bill, preserved Canadian
ownership and control of our airlines, fostered domestic
competition, ensured there is no price gouging, preserved
services to small communities and protected the rights and
concerns for employees.
This is all within the realm of the responsibilities of members
of parliament and government officials. It is within the
framework of government policies that have already been
established.
* * *
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Gerry Ritz (Battlefords—Lloydminster, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the Prime Minister has a terrible habit of ignoring the
tough problems thinking they will just go away, that they will
disappear. The only things disappearing are farm families.
Yesterday the Prime Minister dealt the farmers another blow. He
told the premiers “Do not worry. It is not as bad as you think.
We have got brand new numbers, but you cannot see them because
the ink is still wet”.
That is very small comfort, or no comfort at all to the
thousands of farmers who are facing the nightmare of losing their
homes and their livelihood. There are going to be 16,000 to
17,000 farm families out on the streets.
What gives the Prime Minister the audacious right to think he
can judge this crisis when he has not even been there and seen it
for himself? How arrogant.
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the government has been applying all of its time and
attention to work on what is a very serious problem for many
farmers in western Canada.
That is why we have extended and improved the crop insurance
program. We have done the same with NISA. In terms of extra
incremental assistance, we were the first to come to the plate
with $900 million in additional money.
Farmers say that they are having problems with that program. We
are taking that criticism seriously. We are looking at every
conceivable way in which it can be improved and made more
beneficial.
Mr. Allan Kerpan (Blackstrap, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
Prime Minister has said he will place a high priority on
children. Every day that the government does nothing to fix that
farm disaster, farm families, including children, are suffering
untold hopelessness and hardship.
If the Prime Minister really believes in helping Canadian youth,
then why is he turning his back on farm children?
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Government of Canada turns its back on no children.
The message about the importance of Canadian children is very
clear, both in the throne speech and long before that in the
policies and actions of this government.
It is our hope that the existing programming plus the
incremental programs that we have put in place in the last year
and the additional consideration that we are giving at the
present time will be helpful to all Canadians in addressing these
issues, particularly farm children in western Canada.
* * *
1135
[Translation]
AIR TRANSPORTATION
Mr. Pierre Brien (Témiscamingue, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the Onex/Air
Canada business is an amazing saga orchestrated by the Minister
of Transport.
He has in fact permitted Onex to remodel air transportation and
is allowing a handful of shareholders to determine the future of
the industry as a whole.
Will the Deputy Prime Minister acknowledge that he has abandoned
the fate of the airline industry to a handful of speculators who
do not have a mandate to determine the future of air
transportation?
[English]
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to clearly point
out that the minister did not interfere with the process. He had
no part to play within it. The proposals that were presented by
both parties will be seriously considered by all the agencies in
this government as well as by the government and the transport
committee.
[Translation]
Mr. Pierre Brien (Témiscamingue, BQ): Mr. Speaker, when a law
is being amended in the midst of things, it cannot be said that
no one has intervened in the process, no one would believe it.
The problems of air transportation cannot be resolved simply by
a takeover.
How can the government justify in the face of public interest
such a lack of vision and leadership in an area as sensitive for
both the public and the economy as air transportation?
[English]
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the minister has been
providing excellent leadership throughout this entire experience.
* * *
APEC INQUIRY
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
meal expense allowance for senior APEC commission counsel Marvin
Storrow must be fairly generous because he attended last week's
$400 a plate Liberal fundraising dinner in Vancouver. He even
had to walk past APEC protesters to get there. We want to let
the commission do its work, but why does it have to be done at
Liberal fundraising dinners?
The Speaker: This question is out of order. The hon.
member for Dewdney—Alouette.
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the Prime Minister is being pressured to testify before the APEC
commission. One of the key people who will determine whether or
not he should testify was at a fundraising dinner for the Prime
Minister. In spite of this fact he is supposed to remain at
arm's length, and it does not look good. Why does the government
define arm's length as being close enough to pass the pepper?
The Speaker: I am going to permit the question. I find
the question is in order but the preambles are getting us a
little bit closer my colleagues.
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the lawyer in question was retained by the commission
which is at arm's length from the government. This is a matter
for the commission. As I have said before and I will say again,
let the commission do its work. The commission is well equipped
through its distinguished commissioner to deal with matters of
this kind.
* * *
[Translation]
GENETICALLY MODIFIED FOODS
Ms. Hélène Alarie (Louis-Hébert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, last Tuesday
in the House, the Minister of Health said that genetically
modified foods were all thoroughly examined by a team of
experts.
How can the minister say such a thing when his deputy minister,
David A. Dodge, said exactly the opposite before a Senate
committee and when two employees of his department and the
Canadian food inspection agency said on Le Point that such tests
are not performed?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, all genetically modified products are examined by
Health Canada, and the Minister of Agriculture does the
necessary consulting on labelling.
We learned from the paper this morning, however, that the
Conservative Party is trying to genetically modify the Bloc.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Hon. Stéphane Dion: It would appear that the Conservatives, if
it is true, are incapable of learning from their mistakes, and I
hope this information is wrong.
Ms. Hélène Alarie (Louis-Hébert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, does the
Minister of Health intend to respond to the concerns expressed
by his deputy minister and give his officials the appropriate
resources to enable them to do their work?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, Health Canada certainly has the means to do the studies
in question, but I will keep this question for my colleague.
* * *
1140
[English]
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, WTO
negotiations begin next month and the government has no final
position on the table. In the meantime our farmers are left to
wonder if the government will have their best interests at heart
when at the negotiating table.
A recent study by the George Morris Centre indicated that
Canadian farmers will benefit greatly if this WTO round
eliminates all tariff and non-tariff barriers to international
trade.
Will the government make the elimination of trade distorting
agricultural policy the number one priority in Seattle?
Mr. Bob Speller (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for
International Trade Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I know the hon.
member is new to his position as trade critic, but had he been
following the subject over the last couple of years, he would
know that the standing committee of the House went across the
country and consulted with Canadians. The Minister for
International Trade consulted with the provinces. They came
together with a very strong position for Seattle.
I would invite the hon. member, as he is referring to the area
of agriculture, to talk to the Canadian Federation of Agriculture
and to the different agricultural groups. They strongly support
the position of the Government of Canada.
Mr. Darrel Stinson (Okanagan—Shuswap, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, it was a very simple question. Will you put trade
barriers at the top of your priority in Seattle in order for our
farmers and all of our trade people in Canada to benefit? The
answer is either yes or no. It is simple.
Mr. Bob Speller (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for
International Trade Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I know the member was
involved in some of those consultations and he would know that
the answer certainly is yes. The Government of Canada feels that
these export subsidies that are being brought on by both the
Americans and the Europeans are bad for the Canadian economy and
are hurting Canadian farmers. We have put that at the top of our
priority to get rid of.
The Speaker: I invite hon. members to please address the
Chair in putting questions and giving the answers.
* * *
[Translation]
COUNCIL FOR CANADIAN UNITY
Mr. Maurice Dumas (Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
according to the public accounts, the Council for Canadian Unity
is still the darling of the Department of Canadian Heritage.
In 1998, it received $6.2 million in funding from the
department. But, as everyone knows, the Council for Canadian
Unity and its research centre are nothing more than propaganda
tools, the purpose of which is to see that the Liberal Party of
Canada gets re-elected.
Will the Minister of Canadian Heritage re-assess her priorities,
stop diverting public funds to the Liberal party's campaign
fund, and use taxpayers' money for something more acceptable
than propaganda?
Hon. Sheila Copps (Minister of Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I can assure the hon. member that the only criterion
for membership in the Council for Canadian Unity is a belief in
Canada.
* * *
[English]
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Ian Murray (Lanark—Carleton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat
Board.
Yesterday many of us met with a high level delegation from
Saskatchewan and Manitoba. It laid the blame for the current
farm income crisis on the subsidies and trade distorting export
policies of the European Union and the United States of America.
What action has the minister taken to address this ongoing,
unfair and devastating situation?
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, for me this is a never ending crusade in concert with
the Prime Minister, the Minister for International Trade, the
Minister of Foreign and the Minister of Agriculture and
Agri-Food.
I pushed for our Canadian trade arguments in personal meetings
with Secretary Glickman of the United States and Commissioner
Fischler of the European Union. I have done the same with the
Australians, the Argentinians, the Brazilians, the Chinese and at
the OECD in Paris. I met with the U.S. wheat associates
organization and with the trade representatives of 13 U.S. wheat
producing states. Just last weekend I carried the same message
when I met with the North American millers association in the
United States. On this file we hammer on all fronts all the
time.
* * *
HEALTH
Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the privacy commissioner is giving a strong warning that
the confidentiality of patients' records could be compromised by
the Minister of Health in the new health information highway. If
CSIS and the Pentagon cannot secure their databases, how can the
minister secure the database of the health information highway?
How will the Minister of Health ensure that the public or the
bureaucracy cannot gain access to a patient's private medical
records?
1145
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council
for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): I
am sure, Mr. Speaker, Health Canada has completed studies to
ensure this is not happening. However, I will take the question
for my colleague.
* * *
GENETICALLY MODIFIED FOODS
Mr. Reed Elley (Nanaimo—Cowichan, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, we
have seen the incredible lack of past government action on issues
such as the tainted blood supply. Many Canadians with hepatitis
C are now paying the high cost of government inaction with their
very lives. Canadians are sceptical when the Liberal government
sits back and takes a “Don't Worry, Be Happy” attitude.
Now Canadians want assurances that their food supply is safe.
Why will the Minister of Health not bring the important issue of
genetically modified foods before the Standing Committee on
Health now?
[Translation]
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, as I said earlier, Health Canada is doing all the
required studies on genetically modified products and the
Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food is holding the necessary
consultations.
* * *
[English]
HOMELESSNESS
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
claim of the minister responsible for homelessness that
everything is fine with emergency shelters shows that the
minister is in complete denial about the housing crisis.
In her own back yard here in Ottawa and in her own home
community of Moncton there is ample evidence of how desperate the
situation is.
After 18 months, the homelessness minister seems helpless and
hopeless. Who in the government is going to face the reality and
deliver on the desperate need for emergency shelters and
affordable housing now in Canada for Canadians who need it?
Hon. Claudette Bradshaw (Minister of Labour, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, as I said this week to the hon. member, there are two
phases to homelessness. One phase is the emergency phase, which
is this winter, and what we are able to do for that. The people
in my secretariat have been in touch with all the communities
across the country because I am also very concerned about having
enough beds for people this winter.
I have also been working on the long term sustainable part of
homelessness in Canada and I will continue to work on it.
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
concern is not enough. We have had eight months of tours and
studies. I have talked to people in different communities across
Canada who have told me that even though the minister has said
that everything is fine, they say that is absolutely not the
case.
I believe Canadians have a right to know what the government is
prepared to do to meet the housing needs of Canadians and ensure
that people are not freezing to death this winter in Canada. What
is the government going to do?
Hon. Claudette Bradshaw (Minister of Labour, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, if the hon. member had read the throne speech, she would
have seen that the government said it would work on the root
causes of homelessness, on shelters and on support services.
We are doing a lot of that now. We are putting $1.9 billion
into social housing. We have added another $50 million to the
RRAP, which does a lot of good work in the hon. member's riding.
Health Canada and the Department of Human Resources are also
putting money toward homelessness.
* * *
BANKING
Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Mr. Speaker, during
the bank merger process, the Bank of Montreal and the Royal Bank
made firm commitments on increasing the number of branches from
2,500 to 3,000 staffed branches. This week, the Bank of Montreal
has announced that it will be closing 100 branches directly
responding to the merger decision by the finance minister.
Having failed to use his power to defend the interests of
Canadians, what will he do now to defend the interests of
Canadians who are going to be losing their bank branches because
of his bad decision?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I take it, in
referring to the bad decision, the hon. member supported those
bank mergers. If that is the case, I want him to stand up and
say so because he owes it to the whole House.
Let me tell the member what we have done. We have studied the
issue. We have had hearings in our caucus, in the finance
committee of the House and the Senate and the minister responded
to the MacKay task force last June.
Closures which would impact on communities must be made with due
notice so that the people can take steps to find alternative
measures. We have also brought in measures, in response to this,
which make it possible for the industry, which is a leader in
Canada by any type—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Kings—Hants.
1150
Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
industry was a leader in Canada. Not only are Canadians losing
their bank branches, they are also losing their investments.
Since the minister's bad decision on the bank mergers, Canadian
bank shareholders have seen $7.2 billion less in shareholder
value because of that decision. During that same period of time,
U.S. bank shares have increased by 8%. Americans are getting
richer and Canadians are getting poorer.
The fact is that 7.5 million Canadians own bank shares. Why has
the Minister of Finance failed his first test of leadership in
not defending the interests of 7.5 million Canadians?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we had in place
a very open process for reviewing the whole question of mergers.
We responded in the MacKay task force in making those measures
open and patent.
If the member does not like them, I expect him to come forward
and talk about it. However, let us be clear that this is the
first time that party has come out in favour of those bank
mergers, ones which were rejected by the Competition Bureau.
* * *
SMALL BUSINESS
Mr. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Minister of Industry.
People in my riding of Mississauga West, and indeed in all of
Canada, are well aware of the importance of small business as an
integral part of the Canadian economy.
Can the minister tell us specifically what the government is
doing to ensure that Canada's small businesses are supported and
indeed recognized for their important contribution to our
economy?
Mr. John Cannis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Industry, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it has often been said that
small business has been the engine that drives our economy. Over
the past 10 years, 80% of the new jobs have been created by small
business. Small business is also responsible for 80% of the
private GDP.
I will give one specific example of how the government is
supportive. Through its small business loans program, it has,
since 1993, and most recently in Alberta, given out 3,905 in
loans worth $430 million. The small business financing program
in Ontario alone since 1993 has given—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Nanaimo—Alberni.
* * *
FISHERIES
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.): So much for
the Liberal commercial, Mr. Speaker.
As a result of the Marshall decision, aboriginals on Vancouver
Island now believe they have the right to fish commercially year
round and plan to test the Douglas treaty with an illegal fishery
as early as this weekend. Clearly the government has lost
control of the situation.
Will the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries
and Oceans tell Canadians who is managing the fishery? Is it the
aboriginals, is it the courts, or is it the government?
Mr. Lawrence D. O'Brien (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister
of Fisheries and Oceans, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is very clear
who is managing the fisheries of Canada. It is the Minister of
Fisheries and Oceans, and it will continue to be.
* * *
[Translation]
CANADA ELECTIONS ACT
Mr. Antoine Dubé (Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
subsequent to the Chief Electoral Officer's appearance before
the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, Mr.
Kingsley spoke of his displeasure at seeing this bill retain
governmental appointment of returning officers.
My question is for the leader of the Government in the House.
How can the minister explain his double-speak, saying on the one
hand that the purpose of his bill is equity and transparency,
while on the other hand maintaining government control over the
appointment of the main officials involved?
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, first of all, the hon. member
opposite should realize that the system for appointing federal
returning officers is the same as the one in place in all
provinces. Quebec and the other provinces all have the same
system.
The system is an excellent one. It has produced some excellent
people who have directed this country's electoral system.
Furthermore, in its 1991 report, the Royal Commission on
Electoral Reform, or Lortie Commission, did not recommend the
change proposed by the hon. member across the way.
[English]
The Speaker: The hon. member for Cumberland—Colchester.
Mr. Bill Blaikie: Mr. Speaker—
The Speaker: You know what, Bill? You are too small and
I missed you.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Excuse me, it is Friday.
* * *
1155
TRADE
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): I know I am
inconspicuous, Mr. Speaker. I will just have to eat more. I
will have to do something about that at lunch.
My question is for the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister
of Trade, who I know is dying to be asked a question. What is
the government's position going into negotiations in Seattle?
Everyone knows that Canada has now had its ability to legislate
in the area of environment challenged by chapter 11 of the NAFTA.
We have worries on the water front and on a number of other
fronts.
Why does the government persist on going into these negotiations
without asking, that whatever agreements it is a part of that
there be no more chapter 11 investor state dispute mechanisms
and, on top of that, that it seek to get rid of that in the
NAFTA?
Mr. Bob Speller (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for
International Trade Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member
knows, as he was also part of the standing committee report, the
Government of Canada, his caucus, our caucus and the House of
Commons went across the country asking for Canadians' views on
Seattle.
We are taking forward the views of exactly what we heard from
Canadians across the country who told us that the most important
thing for them was to make sure we had a rules based system,
that for a country the size of Canada, and with the importance of
international trade to our economy, that we had a system in place
that was negotiated with the bigger countries in the world but
that Canada could—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Cumberland—Colchester.
* * *
AIRLINE INDUSTRY
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr. Speaker,
I think my question is quite appropriate for the Deputy Prime
Minister.
On the Onex notes under issues, risks, political, it discusses
the need to change legislation in order to remove the 10% voting
ownership restriction. It says “Seeking to do so may result in
serious political debate in the House of Commons. Our timing of
seeking approval during the summer recess will be helpful in
curbing that debate”.
Was the reason we came back to help Onex curb the debate in the
House of Commons? Was that why we were delayed so long? Was it
in order to help that one bid?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Absolutely
not, Mr. Speaker. To show our open approach to public debate on
this matter, as soon as we got back we asked the transport
committee to hold hearings. They are holding hearings. I hope
the hon. member will participate in the hearings because the
recommendations of the committee are and will be very important
to the government.
* * *
TRADE
Mrs. Nancy Karetak-Lindell (Nunavut, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
can the Minister of International Trade tell the House about the
latest trade figures and about his plans to boost even further
Canada's position on the international trade scene?
Mr. Bob Speller (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for
International Trade Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the good numbers in
imports and exports month after month are really a true
reflection of the importance of international trade agreements to
Canada.
Our latest figures from August showed merchandise trade exports
reaching $31.2 billion, up some 12.3% over the same period from
last year. Exports to the U.S. were up 3.8%. Exports to Japan
were up 4.6%. Our trade surplus of $22.1 billion already exceeds
last year's export total of $19.4 billion.
Those numbers reflect the importance of international trade
agreements and agreements with other countries.
* * *
FISHERIES
Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the Marshall decision is wreaking havoc in fishing
communities on the east coast. The government claims it has the
situation in hand but in actual fact it is getting much worse. It
is at the point of violence now in Newfoundland and west coast
natives are now stating that the Marshall decision gives them
rights in B.C. to fish for salmon out of season and sell their
catch commercially.
The supreme court needs to stay the flawed decision of Judge
Binnie and clarify the Marshall decision.
How much damage has to be done before the Liberal government
will take decisive action, not just hollow talks, to end this?
Mr. Lawrence D. O'Brien (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister
of Fisheries and Oceans, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Government
of Canada is fully in control of the issue.
1200
We believe in co-operation. We believe in dialogue. We believe
in a balanced approach. We believe in treaties. We believe in
the laws of the country that prevail. At the end of it all this
will come together and we will have a policy that is conducive to
all Canadians.
* * *
[Translation]
CANADA ELECTIONS ACT
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Mr. Speaker, contrary
to what the House leader has just said, in Quebec, returning
officers are appointed by the director general of elections
following a province wide competition.
Why is the government taking so long to respond to the request
of our chief electoral officer and do the very same thing—
appoint them following a competition rather than as political
appointments?
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is always a pleasure to hear the
sovereignists talk about putting an end to political
partisanship, they who let go representatives abroad for having
refused to take a sort of oath of loyalty to separation.
I would like to tell the member opposite and all the others that
we have an excellent system for appointing returning officers.
There are fine people doing this job across the country. Many
have been recommended by members of this House representing
various regions. These are excellent people, and I do not think
we should discredit them. Finally, the process has worked in
the past, so well, that—
The Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt the government House
leader.
The hon. member for Halifax West.
* * *
[English]
VISIBLE MINORITIES
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
Canadian Human Rights Commission points out that there was a
decrease of 501 visible minorities in permanent public service
jobs in 1998. Out of 28 executive positions filled from outside
the public service, a grand total of zero were visible
minorities.
Earlier this week the treasury board president told me that she
is responding to the crisis by setting up yet another board. More
bureaucracy, less action.
Why not simply hire more qualified visible minority Canadians at
all levels of the public service and begin to rectify the
situation today?
[Translation]
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we
have been working for a number of years to increase the number
of people of visible minorities working in the public service,
but we have noted that the increase over the past ten years has
been very gradual.
Accordingly, we have set up a task force. We have not added to
the bureaucracy. These people are volunteers from outside
government, people well aware of the problems. They are going
to help us draw up an action plan to increase the proportion of
visible minorities more quickly so as to be representative of
the Canadian population.
* * *
[English]
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Tobique—Mactaquac, PC): Mr. Speaker,
the band members of the Tobique First Nation are fed up with the
inaction of the former and current Indian affairs ministers on
the serious financial situation at Tobique.
Two months ago I wrote on behalf of band members asking that
third party management be established at Tobique. Does the
minister plan to act or is he paralyzed with the fear of starting
some kind of domino effect?
Mr. David Iftody (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Indian Affairs and Northern Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
we are always very concerned about financial management of the
bands. That is why we have in place a number of features within
the department. We are actively pursuing a number of them.
We are working very closely with a number of bands in
Saskatchewan and Ontario, and indeed in the Atlantic region, to
address these issues. I will take this case under advisement and
report back to the member on the particulars of this matter.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[English]
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36(8) I have the honour to table, in
both official languages, the government's response to four
petitions.
* * *
1205
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS
Mr. Lawrence D. O'Brien (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister
of Fisheries and Oceans, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to
Standing Order 109 I have the honour to table, in both official
languages, copies of the government's response to the 30th report
of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts on chapter 4 of the
April 1999 report of the Auditor General of Canada entitled
“Fisheries and Oceans: Managing Atlantic Shellfish in a
Sustainable Manner”, presented in the House on June 2, 1999.
[Translation]
FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE
Mr. Denis Paradis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to
present, in both official languages, the first report by the
Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade on
the subject of the free trade zone of the Americas, for an
agreement that serves the interests of Canadians. This is the
first report by the Sub-Committee on International Trade, Trade
Disputes and Investment.
Pursuant to Standing Order 109, the committee requests that the
government table a comprehensive response thereto.
[English]
PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have the honour to present the fifth report of the Standing
Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding the membership
and associate membership of the Standing Committee on Transport.
If the House gives its consent, I intend to move concurrence in
the fifth report later this day.
* * *
EMANCIPATION DAY ACT, 1999
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Ref.) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-282, an act proclaiming Emancipation Day.
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to rise on behalf
of the constituents of Calgary East to introduce my private
member's bill in the House today. The bill would proclaim August
1 as emancipation day to commemorate the abolition of slavery in
the British Commonwealth on August 1, 1834.
The recognition of emancipation day will not only acknowledge
the work of brave Canadians in abolishing slavery but also the
heritage of Canada's black community and the contributions they
have made and will continue to make to Canada.
This initiative, I hope, will garner unanimous support from my
colleagues and the people of Canada.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if
the House gives its consent, I move that the fifth report of the
Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, presented to
the House earlier this day, be concurred in.
(Motion agreed to)
FINANCE
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.) moved:
That during its consideration of matters pursuant to Standing
Order 83.1, the Standing Committee on Finance be authorized to
adjourn from place to place within Canada and to permit the
television broadcasting of its proceedings thereon; and that the
said Committee be permitted in 1999 to make its report pursuant
to the said Standing Order on or before December 10, 1999.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I wish to share my time with the deputy
government House leader and Minister of Public Works and
Government Services.
For years the House has travelled across the country to listen
to Canadians on the very important budget issue. This year, as
in previous years, the government and most parties in the House
have wanted to repeat this exercise.
We have wanted to consult Canadians. We have wanted, and we
still want, them to contribute toward the budgetary process. I
for one happen to think that what Canadians have to say about our
budget is meaningful. We want to consult them. We want them to
participate in the exercise.
1210
However, the official opposition has decided, because it could
not get its way in stalling Nisga'a, that it would not allow the
finance committee to travel. It wants to punish Canadians. It
wants to prevent Canadians from contributing to the budgetary
process because it cannot get its way on another bill, namely
Nisga'a.
Next Tuesday the committee is scheduled to be in London,
Ontario. Unless the motion to have the committee travel can pass
the House, it will cost over $200,000 to cancel the previously
organized meeting in London, Ontario, let alone the cost of
cancelling the other meeting.
The committee has asked the House to go to London, Ontario, on
November 2, as I said previously; to visit Toronto on November 8
and 9; and to go to Halifax, Quebec City, Calgary, Vancouver,
Regina and perhaps elsewhere to consult Canadians on the budget.
I agree that Canadians have something to say about the budget.
Our government promised in the red book in 1993 that we would
consult Canadians on the budget. Later Canadians told us that
they appreciated this process. The House has voted time and time
again to allow the committee to consult Canadians on the budget.
The House has voted unanimously on several occasions to consult
Canadians on the budget.
This year, should this motion not pass, Canadians will be
punished not by the House, not by the government, but by one
party which is choosing for its own narrow interest to punish not
us as MPs but to punish Canadians by stopping them from
contributing to the budgetary process, a process instituted years
ago by the House. That is not right.
I urge all hon. members to allow Canadians to contribute to the
budgetary process, to allow the committee to travel to British
Columbia, to Vancouver and elsewhere, so that Canadians can say
what they think of budgetary policy and can contribute in a
meaningful way. I do not think Canadians will tolerate being
dictated to by the narrow interests of the Reform Party.
I believe all others in the House want this process to proceed.
What Reformers are doing is wrong again. What they are doing in
Nisga'a is equally wrong, but at least on Nisga'a they have the
right to vote against what they want to vote against. They have
a right to be wrong, but they do not have a right to punish
Canadians the way they are doing now. That is taking this
institution as a hostage. I for one do not want our parliament,
this Chamber, which is representative of all Canadians, to be
taken as a hostage by the Reform Party.
Let us vote on this motion. Let us vote in favour of it. Let
us allow Canadians to contribute toward the budgetary process as
they have in the past.
[Translation]
This is what must happen, because it is the right thing to do,
because Canadians have said so, and because the House has said
so on more than one occasion in the past. We are now at the
moment of truth.
We will see in a few minutes whether the Reform Party wants to
make hostages not just of members of all political parties in
this House, who want to consult Canadians about the budget, but
of Canadians themselves.
We will find out whether the Reform Party will take the Canadian
people hostage and punish them because the motion it introduced
to stop the work of the House was not approved.
No. I am sure that, this weekend, Canadians will tell members
of the Reform Party that they have no right to do what they are
doing, because they are in the wrong, and that they are
punishing Canadians and causing taxpayers unnecessary expense.
That is what Canadians will tell Reformers.
There is still time. There is still time for the members of the
party opposite to say “Yes, we are entitled to our views
regarding the Nisga'a treaty; we are entitled to our views on
any subject at all, but we will not take this parliament and
Canadians hostage”.
1215
We will find out in a few minutes whether this is indeed what
they intend to do or whether once again they will show the true
face of the Reform Party to all Canadians.
[English]
Mr. Richard M. Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, that was an absolutely astounding,
unbelievable presentation by the member.
If we want to talk about narrow agendas and taking hostages, the
narrow agenda of the Liberal government is to ram through the
Nisga'a agreement having no regard for the voices of British
Columbians. The Liberals do not want to go to B.C. They do not
want to hear the voices of British Columbians talking of their
concerns about the Nisga'a agreement. That is why they are
taking this position on the Reform Party's request that the
Indian affairs committee travel to British Columbia so it can
hear the voice of British Columbians.
This government is not interested in that. It accuses us of
holding parliament hostage. It is holding the people of British
Columbia hostage in its constant refusal to listen to their
concerns.
Let us be realistic about the wants and the desires of the
government to have the finance committee go to London to hear the
economic report of the finance minister. It is almost laughable
that the member can stand and say that the government is out
there to listen to Canadians. We all know that it is only a dog
and pony show, an agenda so that the finance minister can go out
and tell Canadians what his—
The Speaker: That is a statement, surely. If the hon.
government House leader wishes to respond to the statement he may
do so briefly.
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to respond to
the hon. member. I know he was listening attentively to what I
was saying, otherwise he surely would not have asked the question
or raised the point.
We brought the Nisga'a bill to the House and it has now been
debated on at least two separate occasions, if not three. Let us
consider what the Reform Party did. It amended the motion by
asking the House to withdraw the bill, and then it amended that
motion to allow members to filibuster another time. This was an
effort by the Reform Party to filibuster the bill.
When I proposed on the floor of the House two days ago to extend
the hours of sitting to listen to more Reform members' excellent
speeches on the Nisga'a agreement, members of the Reform Party
turned it down. They did not want more debate on Nisga'a. They
turned it down. It is not that they want more debate; it is that
they want the bill delayed and they want to punish Canadians.
Mr. Jay Hill: Mr. Speaker, Standing Order 74(2) states:
The Whip of a party may indicate to the Speaker at any time
during a debate governed by this Standing Order that one or more
of the periods of debate limited—and allotted to Members—are
to be divided in two.
It is my understanding that since the hon. member did not have
the whip or deputy whip of his party move the motion to split his
time, it would have required the unanimous consent of the House
to allow him to split his time. Am I incorrect, Mr. Speaker?
1220
The Speaker: In response to the point of order which
the hon. member brings up, it is expressly stated in the rules.
However, for at least the past five years since I have been
Speaker, all members have been allowed to split their time at one
time or another. It has become the practice of the House, and I
would hope that the committee on procedures would look at it and
correct it. Our practice is now, as all hon. members will agree
and know, to allow all hon. members to split their time at any
time. I see no reason to digress from that at this point.
Mr. Ken Epp: Mr. Speaker, for clarification, you said
that you wished the procedure and House affairs committee would
take this up, yet you have already ruled and made it a rule.
Therefore, is it necessary for the procedure and House affairs
committee to actually deal with it?
The Speaker: In clarification of that, I would hope that
the wording would reflect our practices. That is all I am saying
to the House. Although I have ruled on this now, because we have
been doing this for at least five years, I would hope that the
committee would change the wording to reflect the practices of
the House.
Mr. Jay Hill: Mr. Speaker, are we now to assume that
whatever is the customary practice, even though it is not written
into our standing orders or Beauchesne's, will be the rules of
the House?
The Speaker: We are to assume that whatever we have
accepted as practice, as a House, for the last five years, is
what we have been doing. I think that all hon. members who are
here today would agree that this has been our practice and that
this particular point has not been raised before. If we have a
practice which is working for us in the House, then I think we
should follow our practices. I would never change a rule
unilaterally, but surely I must interpret what our practices are
in the House.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I have a short preamble to the question I have for the
minister. I agree in some ways with Reform that closure and time
allocation are used too often. I think we all agree with that. I
also do not think it is necessary to have the finance minister go
to London to make a financial statement. However, my
understanding is that his motion before the House is not just
about London, it is about allowing the finance committee to do
what it traditionally does, which is to go around the country to
consult the people. Unless I am mistaken, I think I have heard
the leader of the Reform Party talk about grassroots and
consultation with the ordinary folks of this country. I know in
my case that people in Saskatchewan are quite anxious for the
committee to visit Regina. It will be going to Regina to talk
about the farm crisis. I spoke with the president of the
Saskatchewan wheat pool yesterday.
I want to ask the minister across the way whether he can confirm
that his motion indeed does say that it is not just London, but
that this committee will go around the country to sell people in
five or six different—
The Speaker: The hon. government House leader.
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Speaker, yes, the motion is for the
entire cross-Canada hearings.
The proposed itinerary, as scheduled now and as recommended by
the Standing Committee on Finance, is that the committee—and
this is not exhaustive, but it is the list established thus
far—attend to London on November 2, Toronto on November 8 and 9,
Halifax and Quebec City on November 15 and 16, Calgary, Vancouver
and Regina on November 22, 23 and 24. Those are the seven
locations that have already been planned by the finance
committee. Of course, Calgary, Regina and Vancouver, those very
important western communities, are included in the list which I
have just given.
1225
Mr. Ken Epp: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
Just for greater clarification, could I ask that I be given a
copy of the motion that is now before the House? I would
appreciate that.
The Speaker: My colleague, it has been on the order
paper, as it is now. Would you like a copy of the order paper
sent to you? We will have it sent over by the page if you like.
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Public Works and
Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to
participate in this debate. I believe since 1994 the finance
committee has had the opportunity to go across the country to
listen to Canadians in preparation of the budget so that
Canadians could participate in the process.
For years members have asked for this process and now we have
implemented it. Therefore, I support everything that my House
leader said.
I move:
The Speaker: The motion is in order.
Mr. Jay Hill: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
It seems like a rather interesting afternoon for a Friday.
I would like some clarification. My understanding, according to
the standing orders, is that a member cannot second the amendment
if he or she has already been the primary mover of the same
motion. Is that not true?
The Speaker: That is correct. I do not know what the
problem is. Mr. Lee seconded the first motion. Mr. Kilger
seconded the second one.
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am deeply
concerned about this as a member of the finance committee. I
have also had the privilege of travelling with the committee to
different parts of the country during last fall's hearings. I
think it has both merits and demerits. There are a lot of good
presentations made by different people who represent different
points of view which are very valuable to the finance committee.
However, I seriously question whether they are useful in the
sense of actually affecting the budget, since over and over again
the message that we have heard from Canadians in those hearings
has been systematically ignored.
There have been many times when we had a convergence of opinion
in a certain direction and it was not done. I think probably the
biggest example is the tremendous message we had last year of
calling for tax cuts. The government has chosen instead, in every
budget that we have had since this Liberal government took power,
to increase tax revenues. Therefore, I think going around and
listening is largely a public relations measure on the part of
the government because it gives the appearance that it is
listening, when in fact it is not.
1230
However I still like to say that as a member of the committee I
found the input to the committee valuable. It is really what
happens after it comes to the committee that is not acceptable.
After having funded at great public expense to the taxpayers
these trips around the country, most of the time the government
ignores what happens in those hearings.
There is a much greater issue. In fact there are several issues.
This motion that has been brought forward asks for, among other
things, approval of the finance minister to make a big splash in
London next week. I really object to that. I would object to it
even if it were not for the Nisga'a deal.
It is just a fact of life. I think the taxpayers out there
should know that when the committee travels, it is a very costly
effort. It costs a great deal of money. Not only are there the
travel and hotel expenses for the members of the parliamentary
committee, we also have the support staff. In many instances
their number exceeds the number of members on the committee. We
have to have translators since our Official Languages Act
requires that translators from English to French and French to
English be available. I have no objection to that but it is a
cost which is greatly increased when we move the committee away
from Ottawa.
Here in Ottawa the facilities are all in place. The translation
booths are in the committee rooms. We can use the committee
rooms. We have the staff who are on salary come in and do the
translating and everything else. It is much more economical to
do it here.
I do not want to be misunderstood. I think Canadians should be
heard. When I say this it sounds as if I do not want to listen
to Canadians and that is opposite to what I believe. However, I
think there is a much more efficient method.
I would like to see the procedure changed so that each member of
parliament is given perhaps a week to go to his or her riding to
conduct meetings in every little community hall and listen to the
people directly.
The finance committee most of the time hears only from groups,
which is a matter of efficiency. It is quite efficient to listen
to people who represent perhaps 1,000 or 10,000 people, or even
more if they are from other groups that have a large
constituency. It is good to hear from them but we fail to hear
from the ordinary taxpayers, the people at home trying to make
ends meet who do not belong to this or that organization but are
taxed to death. We do not listen to them.
I would like to see the role of the member of parliament greatly
enhanced. Members of parliament should spend a week or two
specifically on prebudget hearings. A composite report should be
made by all 301 members of parliament based on what they heard in
their ridings so that the voice of the people is heard in this
place instead of simply the dictatorship of the Liberal
government.
When the vote takes place I would like it to be a free vote. As
it is now, members are punished by their respective parties, by
the Liberal Party, the Conservative Party, the NDP, or the Bloc,
if they do not vote the way they are told to vote. The Reform
Party stands alone in saying that the first obligation of members
of parliament is to represent the people who sent them here.
That is paramount.
As a member of the finance committee, I do not mind and in fact
I like going to other parts of the country. It broadens my
perspective, but I want to get a real perspective. For example
last year when we were in Saskatoon everybody went for some fancy
lunch somewhere. Everyone can tell from looking at me sideways
that I could skip the odd lunch without any permanent damage, so
instead of going to a taxpayer paid lunch, I went for a walk on
the streets of Saskatoon. I talked to different individuals.
During my walk I met a guy on Second Street. He had an old 1959
Meteor like the one I had. I struck up a conversation with him.
We talked about his car.
I talked to him about taxes. I talked to him about the finances
of the country. He was a senior. He was very concerned about
the state of affairs. He was adamant that we should cut taxes.
Was he heard? Did the NDP member of parliament who represents
him bring that message to cut taxes forward? No, I do not think
so. That is what we should be doing.
1235
I also want to address the London trip issue. I hate to say
this, but the trip is really not to hear from Canadians; it is a
photo-op for the finance minister. Think of what is involved
here. It has almost the same logistics as running a war. We
have to move all of the people who are involved from the House of
Commons to London.
All of the media has to set up in London. They are already set
up here. It would be so easy to make this financial statement,
this update here, but no, it has to be done in London. The media
have to move their trucks, satellite dishes and everything there.
I am sure they are willing to do it because it is big news when
the finance minister speaks. It touches the pocketbook of every
Canadian. The media will be there but at tremendous expense.
It costs the taxpayers money not only to send the
representatives and staff from the House of Commons, but there is
all of the equipment and the rental of the rooms, all of which
are incremental costs. Besides that, taxpayers will pay through
the funding to CBC to have its representatives there. It could
be done here. The message is the same.
Why do the Liberals want to go to London? I am guessing here
but I think it is probably because they have done some polling
and that is an area that needs a little bit of propping up with a
little bit of activity. So the taxpayer is being asked to fund
this.
Whether the finance minister goes there or not is one question.
Another question is whether the finance committee travels to
other parts of the country. But the big overriding question in
this whole issue is one which is even more important.
The House leader of the Liberal Party called this all sorts of
bad names with respect to Reform. I resent that. The people of
Elk Island sent me here to represent them.
What we have in front of us, and this has to do directly with
finances as well, is the government's unwillingness to debate the
Nisga'a agreement with the Canadian public. It has been so
one-sided until this stage that it is absolutely shameful.
Absolutely we have to come to some resolution on these issues. It
cannot be done satisfactorily in a democracy, it cannot be done
satisfactorily within the finances that we have available to us,
unless we have the consensus of the people.
Every time I have entered into an agreement it has been with
someone else. For example, I recently hired a new staff
assistant. He is an excellent young man and I think he would
want me to say that. He will probably send this part of
Hansard to his mom and dad. He is a great guy. Before he
came to work for me, we sat down and agreed on what he would do
for me and what I would do for him. There are two parties to the
agreement. We have all sorts of agreements with respect to
salary, hours of work, travel conditions, all of those things.
Some of them are ruled by the Board of Internal Economy. But we
made an agreement.
With respect to the Nisga'a agreement, the Liberal government is
failing to recognize that it is an agreement between the two
parties to the agreement, not just one. Too much of that
agreement was hammered out in secrecy behind closed doors. Even
certain members of the government of the province of British
Columbia were unable to receive information with respect to the
details of it. It was hidden from them.
When it was all done, a fait accompli, it was brought to the
government by the NDP in British Columbia and it was rammed
through.
1240
Hon. Lorne Nystrom: Madam Speaker, I apologize to the
member from the Reform Party for raising a point of order at this
time, but I want to raise a question of order.
Members of parliament are watching television in the lobby. They
are watching the Minister of Human Resources Development make an
announcement on employment equity worth about $3 billion to $3.5
billion.
My point of order is that historically major announcements have
been made in the House of Commons where the opposition parties
can respond. It has been an almost iron-clad practice for many,
many years.
Madam Speaker, I hate to put you on the spot, but perhaps you
could consult with the table to see whether or not an
announcement of this magnitude should have been made here in the
House where the people's representatives can respond.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): In answer to the hon.
member's point of order, there is an ongoing debate about whether
that type of announcement should be made in the House or
somewhere else, but it is not a point of order.
Mr. Ken Epp: Madam Speaker, it is not often that I thank
members from the New Democratic Party for interrupting me while I
am making a speech, but this time I would certainly concur with
what the member is saying. Again it is an atrocious example of
the dictatorial nature of this Liberal government that it will do
things outside of the House which should be done in here and
which should be done in consultation with members of parliament
who represent their constituents and are accountable to them.
Instead, the government does this when there is no
accountability. Even the members present in the Liberal Party do
not have anything to say on this. It is atrocious.
The Nisga'a agreement is a deal with two groups of people. We
are not trying to obstruct the government. Probably the members
over there will fail to understand this because of their
inability to understand common sense, but we are actually trying
to help them. If this deal is rammed through this parliament
like it was in the legislature in British Columbia, the Liberals
will put at risk the very future of our children, our
grandchildren, our whole society, our country, the unity of the
country and the fiscal accountability of the country. Everything
will be at risk unless they reach an agreement between both
parties.
We are taking this action today of blocking the travel of the
finance committee. The Liberals are quite right in that it is a
move to force them to listen to the people of British Columbia.
We are absolutely fed up with the fact that Alberta,
Saskatchewan, Manitoba and British Columbia are continually
ignored by this government.
The country has a unity problem. People right across the country
from coast to coast are asking “What is wrong with Ottawa? Can
we not fix it?” The fact is that they can fix it, and we want
to help them do that by engaging in a debate.
It is an affront to every member of parliament to bring in a
Nisga'a agreement with a prior condition that not one dot or
tittle in it can be amended. That is the condition. It is all
or nothing.
We find a number of elements in that agreement to be quite
offensive to Canadians. The Liberals are wrong. We are not
permitted to amend it. Therefore we have no choice but to oppose
it. The only way we can achieve this is by getting the people
informed and involved. Contrary to what the minister said the
other day, the more people find out about the facts of this
agreement, the more they will say that it is going in the right
direction but there are immense problems with it which must be
fixed or else we are in trouble.
Of course it is a ploy. It is a tactic we are using. The
Liberals may not like it but it is in direct response to what
they are doing, not to us. I have a pretty thick skin and it is
padded beneath. I am not worried about that. I am worried about
the fact that they are insulting and ignoring the voters and the
taxpayers of British Columbia.
1245
They can fix this. If they want to do their travel, all we are
asking is that on an issue as important as this we should also
have a committee travel, that committee being the committee on
Indian affairs. Let it go to British Columbia and hear directly
from British Columbians what their genuine concerns are.
This is of great importance. I do not know how to emphasize it.
I know I could be dramatic. I could get on the news tonight if I
stood on the table and maybe took off my shoe and banged it on
the desk like Khrushchev did. However, I will not do that
because I believe in the dignity of this place and that dignity
is destroyed when ordinary principles of democracy are so trodden
on by the government.
I believe that in order to solve the problem we must have both
committees travelling. That is all we are asking for. We will
absolutely not obstruct parliament, but we will not permit them
to obstruct parliament either. If they do so, they can expect
from a responsible official opposition that there will be a
little bit of a tactic in return. They ought not to be surprised
when they have been this blatant in their abuse of the democratic
process.
Because of the importance of this, I will move an amendment. I
move:
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The motion we are
debating at this time cannot be amended. We are on the previous
question and it cannot be amended.
Mr. Ken Epp: Madam Speaker, I am just trying desperately
to do something that will force the government to act
democratically. I want to do what is right for Canada and
Canadian citizens. I want to do what is right for the voters of
the country. I want to make sure the country stays together. I
want to make sure that the people of British Columbia are heard
on this matter. I want to make sure that the natives of our
country are heard. I want to make that there is an agreement
between both parties that is amicable to both sides, instead of
doing this behind closed doors and making an agreement that is
partially acceptable to some of the people on one side while some
40% of natives are saying no to the Nisga'a agreement. We are
not being fair to them if we do not make these changes.
I also want to make sure that the Canadians who are footing the
bill for this and who have to live with the consequences of this,
whether they be citizens of British Columbia or citizens anywhere
in the country, have the right to be heard and that their genuine
needs will be addressed.
I stand by what I said earlier. I wish we did not have to do
this. I really wish we could say “Sure, let the finance
committee travel”. I still would not let it go to London for
this photo op, but let it travel and listen to Canadians. I would
not mind that but the photo op thing is absolutely ridiculous.
It is a waste of taxpayers' money.
I certainly want to urge the government to change its mind for
once and admit that maybe it made a mistake. Why does it not for
once exercise a little humility and say that it should go to
British Columbia to hear the genuine concerns of Canadian
citizens over there.
1250
Mr. Maurizio Bevilacqua (Vaughan—King—Aurora, Lib.):
Madam Speaker, I rise to participate in the debate because I
think it is necessary for Canadians to understand that we at the
committee level actually approved this plan to travel and the
hon. member who just spoke agreed to travel with the finance
committee.
There are a couple of points that the member raised in his
comments which I find quite suspicious. First, he feels that
members of parliament ought to go out in their communities and
seek input during the prebudget consultation period. That is
precisely what our committee has been asking for since 1993.
Members of parliament should go into their communities, report to
the finance committee and their findings would be incorporated in
the finance committee report to the Minister of Finance.
Second, I do not understand how the member can say that the
recommendations made by the finance committee are not acted upon
by the Minister of Finance. For the interest of Canadians, I
want to raise just a few of the recommendations that have been
adopted by the Minister of Finance and the Government of Canada.
These recommendations deal with prudent economic assumptions in
the formulation of the budget and the issue relating to the
contingency reserve and how it should not be used to fund either
program spending or tax cuts. The committee recommended: that
the federal government establish a long term target for
sustainable debt to GDP ratio; that the temporary 3% surtax be
completely eliminated; that the basic personal amount be
increased; that employment insurance premiums be lowered; that
the government increase funding to the provinces for health care;
and that the government increase funding for health research
because we all understand the importance of that particular
issue.
What is interesting is that all of these recommendations came
from the people of Canada. They had input in two ways. They had
input through the finance committee and also at the community
level through those members of parliament who cared enough to do
a prebudget consultation through town hall meetings,
questionnaires or whatever method they liked to use to consult
with Canadians.
If there is something I personally take great pride in, it is
the fact that Canadians' input has been seen in every single
budget delivered by the Minister of Finance. When Canadians see
that the $16.5 billion tax cut has been implemented, they know it
comes from the input from the various town hall meetings and from
their presentations to the House of Commons finance committee.
When Canadians see that we understand what it takes to build a
productive economy and make wise investment in young people and
education and health care, they know that is their word being
reflected in the budget. That has happened every single year.
When the government inherited the $42 billion deficit and
Canadians said that we should make eliminating the deficit a
priority, that is exactly what happened.
I have to make these points because I fundamentally believe in
the consultation process. I fundamentally believe in the
consultation process that was started by the government. It
speaks to what is the essential fibre of democracy; that
Canadians are given an opportunity to express themselves clearly,
to clearly state their points of view and to clearly state
priorities.
This essentially is what is being denied to the people of Canada
who must have an opportunity to express their points of view on a
very important issue. The budget is very important and must
reflect Canadians' priorities but in order to do that we must be
able to seek their input.
1255
The prebudget consultation process, above and beyond the OECD,
has also been applauded by Canadians from coast to coast to coast
as an innovative method of seeking public input. Therefore, the
Reform Party had better be careful because it is infringing on
the fundamental rights people have to express themselves.
The hon. member who just spoke is a very active member of the
finance committee and that is why perhaps I am very surprised by
his attitude. The members opposite had better think twice about
doing what they are doing because Canadians recognize how
effective the prebudget consultation process has been and how
effective their voices have been in making sure the government
acts on those priorities which are essential to building a better
life, a stronger economy and a more just society.
My question for the member is quite simple: Why the flip flop?
Mr. Ken Epp: Madam Speaker, since the member used seven
minutes of the ten, I assume I will have seven minutes to
respond.
The member has misinterpreted my motivation here. He seems to
be implying that I do not want to listen to the people. That is
false. The accusation he is making is factually incorrect. I do
not only want to hear from special interest groups, I also want
to hear from ordinary Canadians. That is why I said what I said.
The member indicated that members of parliament are invited to
go to their ridings and have consultation meetings. I take my
job very seriously and, Madam Speaker, I do not know if you have
noticed, but when the House is in session I am essentially always
here, pretty well 99.9% of the time. It is very seldom that I
allow functions in my riding to take precedence over my job here
because I am here to represent them.
On the weekends and on the weeks out, I go back to my riding to
listen to the people. What did the government do when it
prorogued the House? It chose the week that we were scheduled to
be out where we would have normally scheduled our town hall
meetings. We did not have enough time to schedule, advertise and
book them before those two weeks of break. The week we would
have had in order to give advance notice was taken away from us
by the opening of the House and the throne speech.
What has the finance committee done about November 11? That is a
so-called week out, when members of parliament go back to their
ridings to listen to the concerns of their people. It has
scheduled a finance committee.
As the member for Elk Island, I am a faithful member of the
finance committee. When it is sitting and listening to witnesses
I am there every minute of the time. When those people are there
because they have taken the time to prepare a presentation, I
will be there to hear them.
What has the finance committee done? It has taken me out of my
riding during that week and scheduled meetings in Toronto, just
totally ignoring the fact that for those of us in the west,
travel time is necessary. We have duties in our ridings on
November 11 for Remembrance Day. The member just says “That
does not matter, we can get back to our riding in one hour, let
us not worry about the west”. That is the whole point. He also
said that Canadians should be heard on an issue as important as
the budget, and I agree. However, there is another important
issue, the issue British Columbians have with the Nisga'a deal?
I will reflect his words right back. He said “they had better
be very careful”. I am telling them that they had better be
very careful because if they do not listen to British Columbians
they will be in much worse trouble than if we do not go around
with our prebudget hearings. I have a very simple conclusion.
1300
I want the budget to be representative of what the people want.
I want the finance committee to travel, but I want the Indian
affairs committee to travel too. If they deny that, what else
can we do? They have pushed us into a corner.
Do I not have seven minutes, Madam Speaker? I wish in the
future that you would stop those members halfway, because I think
we should have at least as much time as they have to make their
points.
Mr. Charlie Penson: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. With the flow of the debate back and forth and the very
long question that was asked, I know there were a number of
points my colleague did not have a chance to deal with.
I wonder if we could seek consent of the House to have the time
extended another four minutes so my colleague could answer those
questions.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Is there consent of
the House to extend the question period?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Madam
Speaker, I want to split a few minutes with my colleague from
Kamloops to say a few words in support of the motion before the
House today which states:
I do not think we need a lengthy debate on whether or not we put
a question allowing for a vote on whether the finance committee
should travel to hear from the Canadian people. I think we
should do that as soon as possible.
I said before that I sympathize with some things the Reform
Party is saying in terms of proper hearings on the Nisga'a
agreement and treaties across the country; perhaps not just B.C.
but other places as well.
I sympathize, having been here many years and as I have said
many times myself, that time allocation is now used too often.
Actually if we want to get historical about it, the current
government House leader used to get up in row three over here and
complain about the Mulroney government using time allocation time
and time again. He did it with great eloquence.
Even the member from Pembroke is hanging his head in shame. Look
at him back there. The cameras could not record that he was
standing on chair. I hope his feet were clean when he did that.
The government House leader often used to say that when they
were in government some day they would not do the same thing and
would allow free and full debates, with all eloquence and so on.
However the Liberals do not necessarily do the same thing in
government as they do in opposition.
I also appeal to the Reform Party that despite the fact there
should be a full debate on any issue in the House or in the
committees, I do not think it should hold people involved in
issues in other parts of the country hostage for its particular
issue. This is really what is happening by denying the finance
committee the right to travel.
I will use the example of Saskatchewan. We all know about the
farm crisis and the two premiers who came here. Farm incomes are
now at the lowest level since the 1930s. The wheat board just
announced yesterday that the price would drop another 4% or 5% in
terms of the forecast for this crop year. That is a serious
issue. I think we all agree with that.
If we do not pass the motion before the House the finance
committee will not go to Regina. It will not allow Mr. Larson,
president of the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool, different farm
organizations, different individuals, the chambers of commerce,
the cities of Regina and Saskatoon or other prairie people, a
chance to address the finance committee.
It is like a fight in a schoolyard. The Reform Party is saying
that it is not getting its way, so it will punch other people
back and not let them get their way as well. At least Reform
Party members are being honest that they are using one of the few
tools they have, but they are denying the rights and privileges
of other Canadians because they feel their rights and privileges
on a certain issue are not being met.
I do not think that is the way to achieve justice: “If I do not
get my way then by damn you are not getting your way either”. I
do not think that is the way we should operate. There are ways
of making a point; there are ways of advocating a position.
I have seen opposition parties over the years stop a majority
government dead in its tracks. I remember in 1985 the Mulroney
government tried to partially deindex old age pensions. Within a
week or two, despite the fact that it had the biggest majority in
the history of the country at that time, riding at over 50% in
the polls, between the pensioners and the opposition parties the
government was forced to withdraw the proposal to partially
deindex old age pensions. There are ways of doing it, but it is
not done by denying the rights of other people, and this is what
will happen today.
1305
As an aside, is the Reform Party saying that the democratically
elected members that form the House of Commons Standing Committee
on Finance cannot travel to hear the opinions of people? What
does it want to do? Does it want to send the Senate banking
committee around the country to hear people's opinions, that
undemocratic, unaccountable, unelected chamber? Is that what it
wants to do?
We should stop playing games. We should vote on the motion as
soon as possible to make sure that the finance committee can
travel around the country to hear the views of the people on the
fishery, the farm crisis, health care problems, or the problems
of the homeless. There are many problems. The Reform cannot
hold us hostage because it is unhappy with one particular issue.
If we all start doing that this place will collapse in shear
chaos.
I appeal to the Reform Party to come to its senses. The Reform
Party used to talk about the grassroots. It wanted to hear from
the grassroots. It wanted to hear from ordinary people.
Where are these members now? Where is the member from Nanaimo.
I am sure he is embarrassed by his party's position that would
deny ordinary people to speak about the farm crisis. That is
exactly what he is doing by not allowing the finance committee to
travel around the country.
Mr. Reed Elley: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. The member from Saskatoon just made reference to the
member from Nanaimo. There are two of us so he may not have
possibly been talking to me, but since I am in present in the
House I ought to take the opportunity to clarify that I indeed
support my party's principles.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I am afraid we are
getting into debate.
Mr. John Duncan (Vancouver Island North, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, there are a lot of financial implications in the Nisga'a
treaty. The federal official opposition represents 24 of the 34
seats in British Columbia. The provincial government put the
Nisga'a agreement we are talking about through the provincial
legislature using closure. There is a clause in the agreement
that hobbles the official opposition federally and provincially.
Both the Liberal official opposition provincially and the Reform
Party official opposition federally have some difficulties with
the Nisga'a agreement. That is clear to everyone. There is a
clause in the agreement whereby no party to the agreement may
challenge it once it is ratified. That is a very important
clause because it completely hobbles the governments in waiting
once they become government. Simply, many of those issues have
not been addressed.
I cannot comprehend why the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle would
suggest we should roll over and allow the government to ram that
agreement through this place without proper debate and without
hearing from the people in British Columbia who very much want
that opportunity but have been denied it.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom: Madam Speaker, I do not know if the
Reform Party member was in the House when I started to speak. I
am not saying that at all. I started by saying that there should
be a full debate and that the committee should travel and should
hear from people. That is exactly what I am saying.
I am also saying that I do not want the Reform Party to hold the
people of Saskatchewan hostage and deny the finance committee the
right to travel to Saskatchewan, or anywhere else in the country,
to hear about the important issues that are facing farmers,
fishermen or people concerned about the health care system and so
on.
Reformers are a bit mistaken. We are not saying that there
should not be a full and fair debate. We are not saying that
they should not have an opportunity to express themselves. There
have been many times when opposition parties have had a great
deal of impact on government policy and have forced governments
to back down. They have the opportunity in terms of the Nisga'a
debate to express themselves, to mobilize public opinion and to
make their point of view known. We have not said that there
should not be a committee travelling on the issue.
This debate is about whether or not the finance committee should
travel across the country to hear from the ordinary citizens of
Canada. We believe it should. We believe the Reform Party is
wrong in trying to stop the finance committee from hearing from
the good people of Saskatchewan and the people from other parts
of the country on issues that concern them. We do not want the
Reform Party to hold the people of the country hostage because of
its concern over one issue.
1310
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
NDP): Madam Speaker, this is probably one of the saddest days
in terms of our parliamentary system and the state of democracy
in our country. If we listened carefully we could actually hear
jackboots slamming around this place.
I will set aside the government for the moment. I want to talk
to my friends in the Reform Party and beg them to come to their
parliamentary and democratic senses this afternoon. I know my
friend has spent a lot of time as a schoolteacher. He has seen
many kids who get angry because they do not get their way. They
say “I am going to pick up my marbles and go home. I am not
going to play”.
Reformers are saying that because they do not like what the
government is doing in terms of its willingness to take a
committee out to British Columbia. They will shut down the
democratic process in this place for the finance committee and
perhaps all others.
These are people who say they believe in the democratic process.
They believe in grassroots democracy. They believe in a
situation where British Columbians and other Canadians should
have a fair shot at policy and legislation that are being
developed. They are thwarting or stopping the finance committee
from travelling across the country and hearing men and women from
one coast to another. That is what the Reform Party is doing. My
friends in the Reform Party astonish me because it goes against
everything I have ever heard every one of them speak about.
Let us be fair. When Reformers say they believe in grassroots
democracy we laud them. Of course it is what we all want to see.
I have been on the finance committee for many years. The best
times I have spent as a parliamentarian is when we go to St.
John's, Newfoundland, Halifax, Saint John, Fredericton, Regina,
Saskatoon, Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver and Victoria to listen to
Canadians.
Does the government always follow their advice? I would say it
does not always but it listens to Canadians. Canadians have a
chance to make their views known. People from my community in
Kamloops venture down to talk and express their views. They want
to see some action on one front and some changes on another. They
want the government to acknowledge these problems.
My colleagues in the Reform Party, for some stupid, idiotic and
undemocratic reason today are saying that because they are mad at
the government they will not let the finance committee travel.
That is a travesty of democracy.
An hon. member: Let's go to Kamloops.
Mr. Nelson Riis: The hon. member can yell. He makes a
big threat that he will go to Kamloops. If we listen carefully
we can hear jackboots pounding in this place, and they are being
worn by the members of the Reform Party today.
An hon. member: The phones are already ringing from B.C.
Mr. Nelson Riis: The phones are ringing from British
Columbia because the Reform Party is refusing permission to
travel to British Columbia to hear input on the finance
committee.
Mr. Grant McNally: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I know my NDP colleague is excited about this topic. He
is demonstrating that and I think he is verging on using
unparliamentary language when he makes those comments.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I am sure that the
hon. member will carry on with his speech in a very reasonable
manner.
Mr. Nelson Riis: A very reasonable manner, Madam Speaker.
1315
It is a dark day in this House for a number of reasons. I will
set aside the concerns with the government and the others dealing
with the Nisga'a treaty. I am referring to my friends in the
Reform Party, and I use that term advisedly. They are my friends
and they are going against everything I have ever understood
Reform members to espouse in this House, and that is the ability
of Canadians to have access to the levers of power.
Members of the Reform Party are refusing the finance committee
to travel to British Columbia. They will refuse permission to
travel to any part of this country and I suspect we are talking
about agriculture, forestry, mining and foreign affairs. In
other words, it will shut down the ability of members of
parliament to get out of this bloody place and into other parts
of the country.
Mr. Ken Epp: It is not a bloody place. It is an
honourable place.
Mr. Nelson Riis: Madam Speaker, I know Reformers love
this place because they do not want to leave. They do not want
to go out to talk to the people in Saskatchewan, Manitoba,
Alberta or British Columbia. In terms of how they are behaving,
I would not want to travel out there either.
I think I have made my point. Members of the Reform Party
should stop acting like a bunch of children, like immature
children. That is a negative comment against children, because
if most children do not get their way, they do not pick up their
marbles and run away. The members of the Reform Party should
grow up and start acting like decent parliamentarians and allow
this place to function as it is intended to function.
Mr. Ken Epp: Madam Speaker, there is
nothing I can say.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Madam
Speaker, I think the member for Elk Island has summed it up.
There is nothing more he can say and it is such a shameful thing
for the Reform Party to try to warp basic democracy and the
grassroots especially. I agree there is nothing more he should
say. No wonder he hangs his head in shame in this House of
Commons.
I remember when the Leader of the Opposition went around here
saying that we should consult people more often, that we should
listen to the people more often and have more input from the
so-called grassroots.
People should be aware that the motion before the House is to
allow the finance committee to go around the country to hear from
Canadians. The Reform Party is saying no. It is saying no to
people in my riding who are suffering from the worst farm crisis
since 1933 and 1935. It is saying no to those people having a
say to the finance committee which is made up of all five parties
in this House of Commons. People should note that.
It is one thing to pick a fight with the Government of Canada,
but it is another thing to hold other people hostage because of
an ideological point of view. That is what is happening here in
the House of Commons today.
I want to know whether or not the member for Kamloops agrees
with those statements.
Mr. Nelson Riis: Madam Speaker, not only do I agree with
the statements, but I want to take it a little bit further.
People from all parts of Canada want to have input into how the
next budget will look. There is a surplus between $15 billion
and $20 billion. The people of Canada want to have a say in how
that money is to be allocated. They want to go beyond what we
say in the House. They want to have input. Students, farmers,
small business representatives, women's groups and environmental
groups all want to have a chance to say in their estimation how
this surplus should be invested for future generations.
I have never spoken like this in the House. I have never felt
like this. My friends in the Reform Party are saying to the
people of Canada “We are going to do whatever we can so that you
cannot tell the finance committee how to invest your tax dollars.
We will not even allow a hearing to be held in Kamloops,
Vancouver or Victoria”.
An hon. member: When is the last time a hearing was held
in Kamloops?
Mr. Nelson Riis: Madam Speaker, Reform members joke about
it. They are laughing. This is not a laughing matter. I take
offence when people laugh at me. I am saying that I want the
people of Canada to be heard in this budget process. They should
not be laughing at a member of parliament for advocating such a
thing. I am ashamed of them all.
1320
Mr. John Duncan (Vancouver Island North, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, I would like to split my time with the member for
Dewdney—Alouette.
The Liberals have been revising history on the Nisga'a agreement
since 1994. Now they are revising history in terms of what is
going on with this committee travel business from as recently as
yesterday and the day before.
The motion we are debating is on the finance committee
travelling across the country. It is an all-party committee.
Committee travel is not a one-way street. The government wants
everything its own way. The official opposition has some needs
and wants as well.
The official opposition obviously would like to travel, in
particular to British Columbia. The Nisga'a agreement happens
once. The budget happens every year. British Columbians have
never had a say on the Nisga'a agreement. They have never had
undiluted access to consultation on the Nisga'a agreement. Those
are things we are asking for. We think they are pretty
important.
There are major financial implications to the Nisga'a agreement.
It is just as important in many respects. This week the public
accounts revealed that there is a $200 billion liability put
forward so far on aboriginal claims. The cost to the province of
British Columbia, never mind on the federal side, is in the order
of at least $10 billion. There are much higher estimates. If
anything this is a conservative estimate. Everyone admits it is
only a partial estimate.
When I spoke on the Nisga'a bill on Wednesday, the time had
expired which determined whether I had time to speak for 20
minutes or 10 minutes. I asked the indulgence of the House to
extend my time from 10 minutes to 20 minutes. The government
once again denied me and the official opposition the ability to
say the things we needed to say on that agreement.
There is a clause that not many people have recognized in the
Nisga'a agreement which binds the parties, British Columbia,
Canada and the Nisga'a, to all of the provisions of the agreement
and requires consent of all three parties for any change. In
other words, none of the parties to the agreement may challenge
the agreement, which is a veto.
This hobbles what is currently the official opposition
federally, and the official opposition provincially, the Liberals
in British Columbia. There has been no opportunity for a
referendum in the province on the Nisga'a. The public in British
Columbia have basically been told to take a hike by the federal
Liberals.
I have been talking about the Nisga'a deal since 1995. I did a
complete analysis. The 1998 final agreement is a very
comprehensive document as we all know. It is 252 pages long with
an appendix of 462 pages. Despite all of that, more than 50
areas have yet to be negotiated.
I am a firm believer that the public has been manipulated. The
facts have been manipulated. There has been misrepresentation
that is not in the public interest by both senior levels of
government.
1325
The federal government is imposing a deal in British Columbia
that it would not impose on itself. There is a track record and a
history of federal negotiations completed in the Yukon and in the
territories. Unlike the Nisga'a deal, self-government is not
constitutionally entrenched in the northern agreements. The tax
exemption for aboriginals enabled by section 87 of the Indian Act
was deleted in the Yukon without new tax exemptions being
created.
There is a memorandum of understanding on land claims in British
Columbia. The province has been co-opted by the federal
government. A federal responsibility is being off-loaded on the
province to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars. That is
something that many people in British Columbia recognize and they
want an opportunity to get at the federal government in terms of
telling it how that is all happening.
The public was not consulted prior to the signing of the Nisga'a
agreement in principle on February 16, 1996 in any meaningful
way. After the initialling the forestry representative and
member of the treaty negotiation advisory committee said this
publicly:
I can't say we worked on this document, because we never saw it
until February 15, just hours before it was initialled. Not one
page, not one paragraph of this 150 page document was shared with
TNAC, the government's Treaty Negotiation Advisory Committee, or
any of the local advisory committees, or any of the people with
legal interests in the crown land that this agreement would give
to the Nisga'a.
That is what the forestry representative said. If the very
people who were paid to know the contents of the negotiations
were kept in the dark, where was the average British Columbian?
It is not easy to be a critic of the federal native agenda. In
1996 for example I was threatened with court action for saying
that it was a conflict of interest for a provincial land claims
negotiator to be lobbying the provincial cabinet on behalf of the
Squamish band regarding their Lion's Gate Bridge proposal. One
can make an excellent living if one is willing to swallow the
federal native agenda, and I am talking about lawyers,
consultants, negotiators, contract services and the academic
community.
Madam Speaker, at this time I move:
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Is it the pleasure of
the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): In my opinion the
nays have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Call in the members.
1405
[Translation]
(The House divided on the motion, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Cadman
| Duncan
| Elley
| Epp
|
Gilmour
| Gouk
| Grewal
| Harris
|
Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Kerpan
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Mayfield
|
McNally
| Obhrai
| Penson
| Ritz
|
Stinson
– 17
|
NAYS
Members
Assad
| Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
| Baker
| Bélanger
|
Bellemare
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Blaikie
|
Boudria
| Brien
| Brison
| Cannis
|
Casey
| Clouthier
| Copps
| Davies
|
Dion
| Dromisky
| Dumas
| Earle
|
Fournier
| Gagliano
| Girard - Bujold
| Goodale
|
Gray
(Windsor West)
| Guay
| Harb
| Ianno
|
Iftody
| Jones
| Karetak - Lindell
| Keddy
(South Shore)
|
Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas – Charlottenburgh)
| Kraft Sloan
| Lalonde
| Lee
|
Lill
| Limoges
(Windsor – St. Clair)
| Lincoln
| Mahoney
|
Maloney
| Marceau
| Marleau
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
|
Mifflin
| Murray
| Normand
| Nystrom
|
O'Brien
(Labrador)
| Pagtakhan
| Perron
| Phinney
|
Riis
| Robillard
| Saada
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
|
Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
| Wappel – 58
|
PAIRED
Members
Alarie
| Anderson
| Asselin
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
|
Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bakopanos
| Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
|
Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
| Bigras
| Bonin
| Brown
|
Bulte
| Caplan
| Cardin
| Chamberlain
|
Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Coderre
| Crête
| Dalphond - Guiral
|
de Savoye
| Debien
| Desrochers
| Dhaliwal
|
Discepola
| Drouin
| Duceppe
| Duhamel
|
Fontana
| Fry
| Gagnon
| Gallaway
|
Gauthier
| Guarnieri
| Guimond
| Jordan
|
Lebel
| Leung
| Loubier
| Manley
|
Marchand
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McWhinney
| Ménard
|
Mercier
| Minna
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Plamondon
|
Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
| Sekora
| Speller
|
St - Hilaire
| Steckle
| Torsney
| Turp
|
Vanclief
| Venne
| Wilfert
| Wood
|
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I declare the motion lost.
[English]
NOTICE OF CLOSURE MOTION
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I wish to give notice,
pursuant to Standing Order 57, that with respect to my motion
regarding the proceedings of the Standing Committee on Finance on
matters pursuant to Standing Order 83(1), at the next sitting of
the House I shall move a motion that the debate not be further
adjourned.
* * *
NISGA'A FINAL AGREEMENT ACT
BILL C-9—NOTICE OF TIME ALLOCATION
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker, an agreement could not be
reached under the provisions of either Standing Order 78(1) or
78(2) with respect to the second reading of Bill C-9, an act to
give effect to the Nisga'a final agreement. Under the provisions
of Standing Order 78(3), I give notice that a minister of the
crown will propose at the next sitting a motion to allot a
specific number of days or hours for the consideration and
disposal of proceedings of the said stage.
Some hon. members: Shame.
* * *
1410
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
FINANCE
The House resumed consideration of the motion.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The hon. member for
Vancouver Island North on a point of order.
Mr. John Duncan: Madam Speaker, when I moved the motion I
was in debate. I had not completed my time on debate. There
have been no questions and comments. As well, when I was
speaking I asked to split my time with the member for
Dewdney—Alouette. None of that has occurred yet.
Hon. Don Boudria: Madam Speaker, I am sure that all
members of the House will know that when what just occurred takes
place, the time that the member had, whether for himself or to
split with another person, does not change anything. Once the
motion is disposed of that particular time slot is disposed of as
well.
Then I believe we would recognize the next speaker and that
would be an hon. member from this side of the House.
Mr. Grant McNally: Madam Speaker, I rise further to this
point of order. I think what is at issue here is whether or not
a divided speech is in fact one speech or two separate ones.
It is a well established practice that these two speeches are
two distinct speeches—
An hon. member: No, they are not.
Mr. Grant McNally: Yes, they are. It happened earlier
today. The second speaker can move an amendment. It is done all
the time. It was done on a motion before us today and it is done
on most supply day motions as well.
Mr. Jim Gouk: Madam Speaker, I rise further to the points
of order that have already been raised. I believe that if
splitting time meant two members making a single speech, they
would continue unbroken and then questions and comments would be
delivered to either one of them.
The House recognizes one speaker and then breaks up even the
question and answer period, not to an unlimited amount of time
but to a specific half, and then goes to the next hon. member.
That is prima facie proof that the Chair recognizes each as
separate and distinct speakers.
1415
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I will read something
from the standing orders on page 24 entitled “Period of debate
divided in two”:
The Whip of a party may indicate to the Speaker at any time
during a debate governed by this Standing Order that one or more
of the periods of debate limited pursuant to section (1) of this
Standing Order and allotted to Members of his or her party are to
be divided in two.
Obviously we are talking here of just one period.
[Translation]
To continue on the point of order raised earlier, when, in the
course of a debate, a member rises to move a motion, he
automatically loses his right to continue the debate. In other
words, he automatically loses his turn.
The debate coming from the opposition must now pass to the other
side of the House.
[English]
Mr. Jay Hill: Madam Speaker, I have a point of order.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Is it the same point
of order?
Mr. Jay Hill: Yes, Madam Speaker.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I have already given
a decision on that point of order.
Mr. Jay Hill: I have more information, Madam Speaker.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Are you talking about
more information?
Mr. Jay Hill: Yes, Madam Speaker.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I recognize the hon.
member for Prince George—Peace River, but make it pertinent,
please.
Mr. Jay Hill: Madam Speaker, earlier today I raised a
point of order because according to Standing Order 74(2),
ironically enough the same standing order you
just read, the whip of the party has to be present at which time
members are given the right to divide their time.
The Speaker ruled that standard convention was that this be
allowed to happen regardless of the fact that it goes contrary to
the standing orders, which clearly state that the whip must be
present. The Speaker ruled at the time that standing convention
was that the speech was divided into two, and that was accepted
practice.
I contend that the accepted practice of the House is that they
are two distinct speeches, as outlined by my colleagues. If it
is standard practice—
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I have already ruled
on that point.
Mr. Richard M. Harris: Madam Speaker, I have a different
point of order.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): If it is a different
point of order I will recognize the member for Prince
George—Bulkley Valley.
Mr. Richard M. Harris: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded
by the member for Prince George—Peace River, that the member—
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Since I have not
recognized anybody on debate at this point, the motion is
premature.
1420
Mr. Jim Gouk: Madam Speaker, I rise on a different point
of order.
A little earlier today, before the vote occurred, the member for
Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys was speaking. During his
speech he made direct reference toward the Reform Party and
started using terms like jackboots.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): This is not a point
of order, it is a point of debate.
Resuming debate, the hon. member for Mississauga West.
Mr. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I move—
Mr. Richard M. Harris: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point
of order. I move that the member for Vancouver Island North be
now heard.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The member for
Vancouver Island North has already spoken. Therefore, he cannot
be recognized.
Mr. Jay Hill: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I move that the hon. member for Blackstrap now be heard.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I had already
recognized the member for Mississauga West who was moving a
motion. The member for Blackstrap had not risen. The member's
motion is not receivable.
Mr. Steve Mahoney: Madam Speaker, pursuant to Standing
Order 26, I move:
That the House continue to sit beyond the ordinary hour of daily
adjournment for the purpose of considering the motion of the
Leader of the Government in the House of Commons respecting
proceedings in the Standing Committee on Finance with regard to
Standing Order 83.1.
Mr. Jim Gouk: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
Yesterday, either a point of order or a point of privilege was
raised with regard to a comment that was made. Albeit
innocently, it was interpreted, because of racial background,
that it was a racial slur. That was dealt with in the House.
Today, I heard a comment directed at the Reform Party members
present, of which I was one. In my hereditary background is
German ancestry. In the speech today by the hon. member for
Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys, there was a definite
reference made to the members of the Reform Party, myself
included, using the term jackboot. That is a very specific and
derogatory term used during World War II toward people of German
descent.
1425
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I will interrupt the
member for a second and I will get back to the him. At this
point there is a motion before the House which must be dealt
with. The point of privilege is not pertinent to this particular
motion and we will get back to the hon. member.
Will those members who object to the motion please rise in their
places.
[Translation]
And more than 15 members having risen:
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): More than 15 members having
risen, the motion is deemed to have been withdrawn.
(Motion withdrawn)
[English]
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, it has been quite a day. Let us just summarize what has
happened here today.
Of course the government is saying certain things. Members of
the NDP are saying certain things and other parties are not
saying anything. The government House leader stands up ranting
and raving about procedures and standing orders and whatnot. It
is unbelievable he would do that. We are following the standing
orders and the procedures. He put a motion forward on this whole
topic which is clearly in the standing orders. That is the
procedure we are following here today.
He talked about the finance committee travelling and how
important that is. Members of the NDP said the same thing. We
know it is important, but we also know that it is mainly an
exercise for the Minister of Finance to have a photo opportunity.
I guess the member for Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys
is also in the photo-op. Perhaps that is why he was so upset
earlier today.
It is obvious what is happening here today. There has been some
procedural wrangling about this, that and the other thing.
The official opposition wants the aboriginal affairs committee
to travel to British Columbia. We want the standing committee to
go to British Columbia. Sure, we want the finance committee to
have hearings as well. But fundamental to this—
Mr. Nelson Riis: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I hesitate
to interrupt my friend's presentation, but he mentioned Indian
affairs which would deal with this legislation and it has not
even got the legislation yet. The committee will decide whether
it wants to travel or not. It is still at second reading stage.
It is not even before the committee, so how can we pre-judge what
the committee will do in the future?
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): That is debate, not a
point of order.
Mr. Grant McNally: Madam Speaker, I guess the hon. member
did not get enough air time earlier, so he is doing a little
venting right now.
The point is that members of the official opposition are
fulfilling their duty as members of the opposition to hold the
government accountable. We will stand in this place today. We
will stand in this place tomorrow.
We will stand wherever we need to stand to hold members of the
government accountable. It is very clear that they do not want
to travel to British Columbia. They do not want the aboriginal
affairs committee to go there to hear the people of British
Columbia on Nisga'a. They do not want to do that. It is those
people over there in the Government of Canada, the Liberal Party
of Canada.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): It being 2.30 p.m., the
House stands adjourned until Monday next at 11.00 a.m., pursuant
to Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 2.30 p.m.)