CONTENTS
Tuesday, February 14, 1995
Bill C-68. Motions for introduction and firstreading deemed adopted 9563
Mr. Hill (Prince George-Peace River) 9563
Mr. LeBlanc (Cape Breton Highlands-Canso) 9564
Mr. LeBlanc (Cape Breton Highlands-Canso) 9564
Mr. LeBlanc (Cape Breton Highlands-Canso) 9564
Mr. LeBlanc (Cape Breton Highlands-Canso) 9565
Mr. Speaker (Lethbridge) 9574
Mr. Speaker (Lethbridge) 9579
Mr. Breitkreuz (Yellowhead) 9581
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West) 9598
Mrs. Gagnon (Québec) 9600
Mr. Harper (Simcoe Centre) 9600
Mr. Gauthier (Roberval) 9601
Mr. Gauthier (Roberval) 9601
Mr. Gauthier (Roberval) 9601
Mr. Chrétien (Saint-Maurice) 9601
Mr. Chrétien (Saint-Maurice) 9602
Mr. Chrétien (Saint-Maurice) 9602
Mr. Chrétien (Saint-Maurice) 9602
Mr. Chrétien (Saint-Maurice) 9602
Mr. Chrétien (Saint-Maurice) 9603
Mr. Hill (Prince George-Peace River) 9603
Mr. Hill (Prince George-Peace River) 9603
Mr. Chrétien (Saint-Maurice) 9604
Mr. Chrétien (Saint-Maurice) 9604
Mr. LeBlanc (Cape Breton Highlands-Canso) 9604
Mr. Chrétien (Saint-Maurice) 9607
Mr. Axworthy (Winnipeg South Centre) 9607
Mr. Axworthy (Winnipeg South Centre) 9608
Mrs. Stewart (Brant) 9608
Mr. Chrétien (Saint-Maurice) 9608
Consideration resumed of motion 9609
Mr. Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca) 9611
Mr. Leblanc (Longueuil) 9613
Mr. Mills (Red Deer) 9618
Mrs. Stewart (Brant) 9622
Mr. Leblanc (Longueuil) 9627
Consideration resumed of motion for concurrence 9630
Motion agreed to on division: Yeas, 176; Nays, 54 9630
Bill C-65. Consideration resumed of motion forsecond reading. 9631
Motion agreed to on division: Yeas, 147; Nays, 83 9631
(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referredto a committee.) 9632
Bill C-67. Consideration resumed of motion forsecond reading 9632
Motion agreed to on division: Yeas, 177; Nays, 53 9633
Bill C-37. Consideration resumed of report stage 9634
Motion for concurrence 9634
Bill C-59. Consideration resumed of report stage 9634
Motion No. 1 negatived on division: Yeas, 38; Nays, 192 9634
Motion for concurrence. 9635
Motion agreed to on division: Yeas, 147; Nays, 83 9635
Bill C-285. Motion for second reading 9635
9563
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Tuesday, February 14, 1995
The House met at 10 a.m.
_______________
Prayers
_______________
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[
English]
Mr. John Maloney (Erie, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to
Standing Order 34(1), I have the honour to present, in both
official languages, the report of the Canadian delegation to the
third annual meeting of the Asia-Pacific parliamentary forum
which was held in Acapulco, Mexico, from January 12 to 15,
1995.
The Asia-Pacific parliamentary forum, which was
inaugurated in January 1993, is quickly becoming an important
voice in dealing with political and security matters,
co-operative economic arrangements and other key regional
interests and issues.
At the same time the Asia-Pacific region is becoming
increasingly significant in the achievement of Canada's goals in
terms of trade, technology acquisition in job creation, in
sustaining a global environment and in managing the
demographics of immigration.
These forums provide parliamentarians of the subject regions
the opportunity to express their own views and those of the
people they represent in a frank and open manner. The
opportunity to meet and discuss issues with fellow
parliamentarians from 20 other Pacific rim countries was a
positive experience. In effect it was an international discussion
at the grassroots level and this is to be encouraged.
In 1997 Canada will host the heads of government and the
ministerial meetings of the Asia-Pacific economic
co-operation, APEC. The government is considering that 1997
be declared the year of Canada in Asia-Pacific.
I am pleased to add that Canada has also been asked to host the
fifth meeting of the Asia-Pacific parliamentary forum in
January 1997. This is an honour and an indication of the high
regard in which our country is held in the international
community.
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Justice and Attorney
General of Canada, Lib.) moved for leave to introduce Bill
C-68, an act respecting firearms and other weapons.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed.)
* * *
(1005 )
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George-Peace River, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I am today presenting
petitions signed by 1,563 of my constituents of Prince
George-Peace River.
The petitioners feel that no amount of gun control has ever
succeeded in preventing criminals from acquiring guns for
illegal means. Therefore they ask Parliament to support laws
that punish criminals using firearms, support, recognize and
protect the rights of law-abiding citizens to own and use
recreational firearms, and abolish any existing gun control laws
that have proven ineffective.
I concur and fully endorse these petitions.
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, I have four petitions to present today.
On behalf of the hon. member for Calgary Southeast I rise
before the House on day seven to present petition number seven.
These petitions are being presented on behalf of constituents
who wish to halt the early release from prison of Robert Paul
Thompson. April 11 is the date set for the parole hearing.
The petitioners are concerned about making our streets safer
for citizens. They are opposed to the current practice of early
release of violent offenders prior to serving the full extent of
their sentences.
The petitioners pray that the streets will be made safer for
law-abiding citizens and the families of the victims of
convicted murderers.
9564
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt, Ref.):
The second petition, Mr. Speaker, has a very simple message: do
not tax RRSPs.
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, the third and fourth petitions deal with the issue of
gun control.
The petitioners call on the House to oppose further legislation
for firearms acquisition and possession and provide strict
guidelines and mandatory sentencing for the use or possession
of a firearm in the commission of a violent crime.
To date, 1,571 constituents from
Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt have signed this petition
and there are many more to come.
Mr. Elwin Hermanson (Kindersley-Lloydminster, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I have two petitions
to table today.
The first one is signed by 75 of my constituents in the
Langham area. It draws to the attention of the House that
because of the inclusion of sexual orientation the Canadian
Human Rights Act will provide certain groups with special
status, rights and privileges and because these rights and
privileges would be granted solely on the basis of sexual
behaviour these petitioners call upon Parliament to oppose any
amendments to the Canadian Human Rights Act or the Canadian
Charter of Rights and Freedoms which provides for the
inclusion of the phrase sexual orientation.
Mr. Elwin Hermanson (Kindersley-Lloydminster, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, the second petition is from the Rosetown area and
is signed by 29 of my constituents, I believe primarily from the
Rosetown Alliance Church.
They draw to the attention of the House that whereas the
majority of Canadians are law-abiding citizens who respect the
law and respect the sanctity of human life, and whereas the
majority of Canadians believe that physicians in Canada should
be working to save lives and not to end them, they pray that
Parliament ensure the present provisions of the Criminal Code
of Canada prohibiting assisted suicide be enforced vigorously
and that Parliament make no changes in the law which would
sanction or allow the aiding or abetting of suicide or active or
passive euthanasia.
I concur with both of these petitions.
Mrs. Sharon Hayes (Port Moody-Coquitlam, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to present four petitions today on behalf of
my constituents.
The first one is rather timely. The petitioners request that
Parliament support laws that severely punish all violent
criminals who use weapons in the commission of a crime,
support new Criminal Code firearms control provisions and
recognize and protect the right of law-abiding citizens to only
use recreational firearms, and support legislation which will
repeal and modify existing gun control laws which have not
improved public safety and have proven not to be cost effective
or have proven to be overly complex so as to be ineffective or
unenforceable.
There are 125 signatures which support that petition.
(1010)
Mrs. Sharon Hayes (Port Moody-Coquitlam, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I have three petitions that call upon Parliament to
review the Young Offenders Act in an open and accountable
process which addresses the following principles: deterrence of
the offender, accountability of the offender and the rights of the
victim.
I support these petitions.
Mr. Francis G. LeBlanc (Cape Breton Highlands-Canso,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have a number of petitions dealing with
various subjects that I would like to table before Parliament
today pursuant to Standing Order 36.
The first is from a large number of constituents who want to
prevail upon Parliament to respect human life and not to
sanction euthanasia.
Mr. Francis G. LeBlanc (Cape Breton Highlands-Canso,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the second petition concerns the issue of
same sex relationships.
The petitioners pray and request that Parliament not amend
the human rights code, the Canadian Human Rights Act or the
Charter of Rights and Freedoms in any way which would tend to
indicate societal approval of same sex relationships or of
homosexuality, including amending the human rights code to
include in the prohibited grounds of discrimination the
undefined phrase sexual orientation.
Mr. Francis G. LeBlanc (Cape Breton Highlands-Canso,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the third petition deals with the Young
Offenders Act.
The petitioners call upon Parliament to amend the Young
Offenders Act to reflect the changing character of young
offenders by increasing the maximum penalty for first and
second degree murder from five to ten years, allowing the
publication of the young offender's name after a second
indictable offence
9565
and lowering the age limits that define a young offender to
include those children between the ages of 10 and 15.
Mr. Francis G. LeBlanc (Cape Breton Highlands-Canso,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the last petition has to do with the question
of the relationship between the decline in the groundfish
population in Atlantic Canada and the burgeoning seal
population and calls upon Parliament to urge the federal
government to recognize the opportunity presented by the huge
seal populations and designate herds for uses to viable
entrepreneurial resources.
[Translation]
Mr. Philippe Paré (Louis-Hébert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, one of
my constituents, Tran Trieu Quan, has now been in prison in
Vietnam for nearly a year. Your petitioners call upon Parliament
to take action as soon as possible in order to obtain the release of
Mr. Quan, a request I fully support.
* * *
[
English]
Mr. Peter Milliken (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of
the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the following questions will be answered today: Nos.
118 and 120.
[Text]
Question No. 118-Mr. Penson:
How many business people accompanied the Prime Minister to China; what
were the criteria for choosing these people; how many of these people had part
of their trip paid for by the Canadian government; and what was the total
amount of federal government assistance to business people on the trip?
Hon. Roy MacLaren (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): The Team Canada delegation was comprised of
approximately 450 representatives of over 250 companies.
Participation was open to all Canadian companies on a first
come, first served basis. No members of the business delegation
had any part of their trip paid for by the federal government.
Question No. 120-Mr. Penson:
Which memorandums of understanding were signed in China, and what
promises were made of possible federal government financing or other
assistance if these should result in firm sales?
Hon. Roy MacLaren (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): For a complete list of memorandums of understanding,
please refer to the answer to question No. 119 tabled this day. No
promises of possible federal government financing were made
in support of potential firm sales.
[English]
The Deputy Speaker: The questions as enumerated by the
parliamentary secretary have been answered.
* * *
Mr. Peter Milliken (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of
the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, if Question No. 119 could be made an Order for Return,
the return would be tabled immediately.
The Deputy Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House that
Question No. 119 be deemed to have been made an Order for
Return?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
[Text]
Question No. 119-Mr. Penson:
Which Canadian companies signed firm deals in China, what was the total
dollar amount for these deals, and what was the extent and source of federal
government financing to make these deals possible?
(Return tabled.)
[English]
Mr. Peter Milliken (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of
the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): I ask, Mr.
Speaker, that the remaining questions be allowed to stand.
The Deputy Speaker: Shall the remaining questions stand?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
_____________________________________________
9565
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[
English]
Mr. Herb Grubel (Capilano-Howe Sound, Ref.) moved:
That this House urge the government to respond to the demands of Canadians
for decisive spending cuts and no net tax-increases to eliminate the deficit and
to produce a smaller federal government.
He said: Mr. Speaker, as one of Reform's co-critics for
finance, I have the honour to lead today's debate of this
resolution. I will discuss its importance by drawing on my
background as an economist and a long time teacher of
international finance courses.
A number of my colleagues later in the day will expand on the
theme in the light of their roles as Reform critics of different
ministries. All of our remarks reflect consultations with constit-
9566
uents through personal and town hall meetings, electronic media
consultations and the return of questionnaires.
As a preliminary, let me note that Reformers do not enjoy our
role as advocates for spending cuts and a smaller government.
The government's involvement in the affairs of Canadians is so
pervasive that few of us, our families or friends will escape the
effects of such cuts.
(1015 )
As a professor, I am personally concerned about their effects
on higher education, my own future and that of my friends and
colleagues. We all dislike it when changes in government
policies force us to alter our habits and way of life. Reformers
therefore appreciate very much the personal difficulties which
these cuts will bring. We know these difficulties will seem puny
in relation to those that will be forced upon Canadians if we do
not get our fiscal house in order on our own terms.
Consider what may happen to the exchange rate, interest rates
and Canada's foreign position if the forthcoming Liberal budget
does not satisfy both Canadian and foreign investors. Investors
sell Canadian government bonds and move their money into
some other governments' bonds, be they American, German or
Japanese. Such sales depress bond prices and increase interest
rates, sending the Canadian dollar on a downward slide.
How far will these adverse developments go? No one knows.
There is no doubt that at some interest rate high enough and
exchange rate low enough, investors will once more purchase
Canadian bonds and dollars and the slide will be halted.
It is often said that rationality or real economic values take a
back seat to investors' mass hysteria during such speculative
bubbles. Falling values create expectations of further falls.
Investors rush to liquidate their holdings before they are worth
even less. Some hope to buy them back once the bottom has been
hit, expecting quick profits. Others are made to move their
money into foreign assets which increase in value at the same
time that Canadian asset values fall.
At some point a new class of speculators enters the fray. They
hold no Canadian assets but sell Canadian dollars short at
today's price in the expectation that they can deliver it a few
days later at an even lower price.
Some domestic investors will borrow Canadian dollars and
buy foreign currencies. The hot money ready to enter such
speculation is so large that no country in the world, certainly not
Canada, can stop the slide once it has gathered enough
momentum.
Many can understand what goes on during such speculative
bubbles. They are likely to have been caught in the fever of
buying real estate, gold or similar investments in the past. They
will remember how profitable it can be to participate in the
exciting events and how difficult it is to resist the herd instinct.
We need only to look at the recent experience of Mexico
during the last few months to appreciate what can happen to
Canada. The Mexican peso depreciated by over 50 per cent
against the U.S. and Canadian dollars before stability was
restored and a slow recovery started. Interest rates went sky
high.
Canadians had a foretaste of possible developments in the
middle of January when a small speculative bubble hit the
Canadian dollar. The interest and exchange rates moved by
extraordinary amounts in a very short time.
In the case of both countries the dramatic interest and
exchange rate changes were halted by the interventions of
governments. They bought bonds and currency that were being
dumped by investors. They used at first the dollar and gold
reserves in the accounts of their own central banks. They then
drew on credit with private banks, foreign central banks and
international organizations that have been negotiated before.
They then went, hat in hand, to arrange new lines of credit,
asking other central banks to help them by buying their national
currencies.
The Government of Mexico went down very far on this road of
using ever more costly sources of intervention. It ended up
arranging for huge direct loans and standby credits from foreign
governments and international organizations.
The cost of such borrowing is now quite transparent and not
just monetary. The U.S. Congress debated loan conditions and
came very close to requiring Mexico to adopt very stringent
policies.
(1020 )
The important thing is that such loan conditions would have
represented an almost unprecedented interference in the
domestic economic, social and foreign aid policies of an
independent nation state. In the end, President Clinton avoided
the imposition of such extreme conditions by the use of
administrative devices which bypassed Congress.
It is not clear that Congress will let presidents use these
devices in the future. The American people and their elected
representatives are in a foul mood when it comes to bailing out
foreign governments which have what they consider to be
inappropriate social and economic policies.
Reformers are not willing to gamble on any of these
eventualities. Our first objective as a country must be to never
be placed in a predicament like that experienced by Mexico. We
want to retain Canada's sovereignty over its economic and
social policies.
In the middle of January Canada came very close to the point
where we too had to go hat in hand to foreign lenders. As some
put it, we came very close to hitting the wall. An economist who
watched the tickers flashing interest rates and exchange rates
9567
dropping by the minute suggested to me that the situation was
saved this time by massive intervention of the G-7 central
banks. He is worried that we may not be so lucky the next time
or that we can escape really burdensome loan conditions.
The next time may well be in the wake of the upcoming
budget, not immediately but when some other event upsets
investors. That may be a few days, weeks or even months later.
Investors will look for four major policies in the budget. The
finance minister had better not goof.
First, investors will look for tax increases. Individual
Canadians oppose tax increases because they feel overtaxed and
want a smaller government for understandable personal reasons.
Investors would interpret tax increases as a signal that the
government does not have the courage to make the spending cuts
needed to eliminate the deficit.
Higher taxes mean eventually a bigger government, one
which during the last 30 years has grown but has not solved and
instead has increased the problems of slow economic growth,
increased poverty and unemployment, the breakup of families
and which to boot, has created frighteningly large and persistent
deficits. It is big government which has created among
Canadians the pervasive sense that their and their children's
lives are getting worse, not better.
Second, investors will look for cuts to social spending. Social
spending programs broadly defined use about $70 billion or 60
per cent of the federal program spending of $120 billion. The
current deficit of $38 billion cannot possibly be eliminated
through cuts in non-social spending even in the face of rapid
growth in revenue during the current boom without a threat to
essential efficiency increasing government services.
Past governments have lacked the courage to tackle social
spending. That is why the fiscal situation has deteriorated to the
present cliffhanger. I predict very confidently that if the
upcoming budget does not contain hard-nosed cuts to social
spending, investors will be very unhappy. They will point with
some justification to a lost opportunity since most Canadians
are ready for such cuts.
In addition, it is now official. The OECD noted in a recent
report that Canada's social programs are an outstanding
example of excessive generosity.
Third, investors will look for a plan for the complete
elimination of the deficit during the current economic boom.
The Liberal red book target of $25 billion two years from now
has been criticized roundly by many experts. It implies an
increase in the federal debt by $100 billion or 20 per cent of the
$500 billion during the first years of Liberal rule.
(1025 )
Like the Conservatives during the 1980s, the Liberals will
find that the debt will cease to grow as a percentage of national
income during the upswing if they achieve their deficit target.
But this is a hollow victory because the cause of the debt will
resume the moment the economy slows down again as inevitably
it will.
Predictions are that this may well happen before the end of the
present election cycle. Few expect decisive spending cuts
during the last two years before the next election. Therefore, one
of the crucial aspects of the budget that investors will study is
whether and by how much spending cuts go beyond the $25
billion deficit target in two years.
They will also look for further plans for deficit reduction
beyond the last fiscal year covered in the budget. Will the
Minister of Finance have the backing of cabinet and the Prime
Minister to plan for further cuts in the future?
Fourth, I believe that investors will look to the budget for one
other important subject. They will look for evidence that the
government has accepted certain radically different ideas about
the causes of unemployment which have moved out of
conservative think tanks and are now discussed freely by the
Auditor General, the OECD and many academics.
According to these ideas Canada's high and persistent
unemployment rates are caused to a considerable degree by the
generous social programs themselves. The unfortunate but
unavoidable reality is that Canada once had the choice of having
high unemployment rates and generous UIC and welfare
benefits as a matter of deliberate public preference. That choice
has disappeared with the debt, deficit and slow growth of the last
decade.
These are harsh messages for a Liberal government to accept,
which on these matters is caught in its own rhetoric. Investors
are watching to see if the Liberals can live up to their reputation
as the ultimate non-dogmatic pragmatists.
Let me close by suggesting that Reformers have listened to
the public and to investors. Our own alternative budget will
reflect what we have heard. It will outline steps we would be
prepared to take in order to address the four issues crucial for
investor confidence and most thoughtful Canadians.
My colleagues speaking after me will elaborate on some of
these matters without revealing too much about our specific
recommendations. We invite the Liberals to present a budget
which will take the news out of the policies on these matters we
will propose very soon.
After this gloom and doom, a few words of hope. Once
Canadians have gone through three years and deal with the
necessary deliberate and thoughtful spending cuts, there is a
light at the end of the tunnel.
9568
Such cuts will restore investor and consumer confidence. The
economic boom will be fueled and expanded. Economic growth
will return to the high levels we have not seen since the
pervasive government intrusion of the last three decades.
In a few short years after the budget is balanced there is a
prospect of tax reduction, a smaller debt, or both. Mild, short
run pain will not only avoid catastrophic pain in the
intermediate term, it will also bring large and important gains in
what in retrospect will seem like a very short time of sacrifice.
We hope the Liberals will hear this message, not because we
want to be right, but because it is right for Canada.
Mr. David Walker (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I welcome this opportunity to
remind the House of the fiscal commitment and philosophy that
will frame our government's upcoming budget. I believe this
debate should also include some plan and some plain, positive
talk about the Canadian economy and outlook.
This Reform motion cites ``the demand by Canadians to cut
spending and hold the line on taxes to eliminate the deficit and
produce a smaller federal government''. Our government does
not need this grandstanding motion or any of the stage managed
events of a publicity starved party to be deeply aware of what
Canadians want.
(1030 )
Starting last October, we put in place the most extensive and
most public consultation process in budget history. In my view,
these consultations prove that Canadians have a more profound
and positive understanding of the budget challenge than the
simplistic slash and trash approach of the Reform Party.
[Translation]
In fact, Canadians have identified priorities that are realistic
and require a great deal of effort. They want a strategy for phase
two, based on last year's budget, to get Canada out of this
vicious circle of deficit and debt.
However, the vast majority of Canadians also want the budget
measures to meet other essential criteria. They have made it
clear that they agree with the principles set forth last fall by the
Minister of Finance.
First of all, deficit reduction must be an essential part of a
strategy to create jobs through economic growth. Second,
fairness is paramount, to ensure that the most vulnerable in our
society are not left behind. Third, deficit reduction measures
must be based on reasoned choices and reflect clear-cut
priorities. Fourth, we must use taxpayers' money wisely. And
finally, budgetary actions should focus on reductions in
expenditures, as opposed to raising revenues.
[English]
The Canadians I have heard from want a lean government but
not a mean government. They want a budget that builds market
confidence but not one that abandons basic social responsibility.
This budget will meet that dynamic challenge.
There is no contradiction here. Our budget will, because we
know it must, take the tough action needed to meet the deficit
goals we set out last year. As the Prime Minister said in Quebec
City last fall, the time to reduce deficits is when the economy is
growing. Therefore, now is the time. The economy is growing
which is good news for all Canadians.
Let me give members some examples. Canada's growth rate
last year was 4.25 per cent, the highest in the G-7. The OECD
predicts that Canada will continue to lead the industrial world
for the next two years. In the past 12 months, real exports surged
over 20 per cent and we continued to set all time records for our
country.
A survey by the Conference Board found that 81 per cent of
firms planned to maintain or boost investment over the next six
months, another record high for our country. That investment
means jobs. Since January 1994 the economy has created over
400,000 jobs. All of these are full-time jobs. The
unemployment rate is down to single digits for the first time in
four years.
This good news does not mean that Canadian economic
renewal is permanently secured. We know that. The government
knows that cohesive, co-ordinated action is needed on all fronts.
We understand that the spearhead for this action agenda must be
to restore a healthy fiscal climate.
[Translation]
We all know the price we have to pay today for having let
deficits and the debt rise to new heights during the past decades.
That price is higher taxes and interest rates, factors that slow
down growth.
(1035)
This government, however, believes that in order to meet the
debt challenge successfully, we must first set realistic and
credible targets. This means maintaining the deficit reduction
momentum we have set in motion, in other words, bringing the
deficit down to 3 per cent of GDP in three years. That is exactly
what we intend to do, and as the Minister of Finance said, there
are no excuses.
The last time we had a deficit level of 3 per cent was in
1974-75. Since then, the deficit has increased steadily and is
now close to 6 per cent of GDP.
It should also be said that setting firm deficit reduction
objectives is a considerable departure from past policy.
9569
[English]
Canadians and markets lost confidence because they have
suffered too many years of rosy, long term promises that became
nothing but short term fertilizer.
Instead, we have set out realistic targets and will take the
action to deliver bottom line results. Our success here will
strengthen credibility for our long term objective, which is
eliminating the deficit completely. This strategy is based on
fundamental political and public reality.
We believe it is best to set short term targets, concrete
milestones and hit them. With short term targets there is no
excuse for delay, no acceptable grounds for not taking tough
action to address the problem. When unrealistic long term goals
are set, reasons can always be found to avoid tough action today
and tomorrow and tomorrow after that.
That was the Tory record, the first cousins of today's
Reformers, a legacy we refuse to accept. Let me remind the
House that we did more than stake out a deficit goal last year. We
backed that goal with real bottom line action.
The 1994 budget set out measures to deliver $20 billion in
deficit reduction over three years. For every $1 of revenue
action there were $5 of spending cuts. No budget in a decade
moved so strongly to cut spending. The fact is we have always
recognized the need for continued fiscal action. The 1995
budget process started the minute we introduced the 1994 plan.
That is why we combined immediate action with a sweeping
series of program reviews of government operations, defence
and social security reform. These have set concrete foundations
for this year's budget and the tough decisions needed.
We all understand that we have a long way to go but I think we
have made a strong start. I am certain that 1995 budget will show
all Canadians and markets around the world that the fiscal
commitments made by the government are the fiscal
commitments kept by the government.
Before concluding my remarks let me comment directly on
the so-called demand that today's motion cites for no net tax
increases in the upcoming budget. Nobody likes higher taxes.
Only a foolhardy politician would think otherwise. That is why
cuts in government spending must and will be our priority in
reducing the deficit. We proved that last year when we cut
spending by $5 for every $1 in revenue measures.
Most Canadians know that to ever bring taxes down and more
immediately to ease the pressure on interest rates and the dollar
we have to get the debt under control. That can only start by
meeting our deficit targets. Given this challenge, I cannot
promise that the budget will not include revenue action. If we
take it, the focus will be on improving the fairness of the tax
system.
(1040)
Let me challenge those who argue against any tax action. Do
they really believe that the tax system right now is completely
fair? Do they really believe that there are no loopholes or no
unjustified preferences, especially given our fiscal situation?
That type of Pollyanna politicking is not what Canadians
demand or need at this time.
[Translation]
In concluding, I would like to point out that the motion before
the House today refers basically to decisive spending cuts, a
refusal to tolerate tax increases, initiatives to reduce the size of
government, and all those measures that are part of an effective
deficit reduction strategy. In other words, we have here the
entire substance of what our government has said it would do.
Unfortunately, the opposition in this House has shown once
again it is better at spouting clichés than at making proposals of
any substance.
[English]
We welcome the opportunity to debate tax issues before the
budget, but we wish the opposition would bring some reality to
the dilemma facing Canadians and hope that we hear more
constructive propositions during this debate.
Mr. Grubel: Mr. Speaker, could you tell me how much time is
allocated please?
The Deputy Speaker: It is 10 minutes for questions and
comments. The member will appreciate that in error the
government was not given a chance to ask questions or make
comments about his speech. It was my error and I apologize to
the House. It is 10 minutes basically for questions and
comments.
Mr. Herb Grubel (Capilano-Howe Sound, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I can understand that the hon. parliamentary secretary
cannot reveal anything about the forthcoming budget and that he
had to stay with generalities.
The basic principles he laid out, I believe 80 per cent of
Reformers agree with. The system must be fair, the cuts must be
discussed widely. All the principles he set out are so universally
accepted that they are almost empty rhetoric.
I was talking about four issues which were raised before the
finance committee where the member opposite sat and listened.
An overwhelming proportion of witnesses said we must not do
these kinds of things. The report that the finance committee
came up with did not reflect these recommendations.
As I said in my speech, those recommendations are absolutely
crucial to the way in which the investors of the world are likely
to react to the forthcoming budget. I hope that the government
9570
will not goof in the budget, that it will take the advice of the
overwhelming number of witnesses on those four issues. The
four issues are that a $25 billion deficit target in two years is
insufficient given the length of the business cycle. It is
absolutely dangerous during a period of boom when the
economy is growing at 3 or 4 percentage points a year to do as
little as necessary to get to $25 billion in two years. It will send
the wrong signal.
Everyone who studies the budget realizes that the social
programs are absorbing such a large proportion of the total that
unless we take very tough steps on those, as has been
recommended widely by the OECD and the Auditor General, the
budget will not be credible.
(1045 )
I raise this matter because early in this session I asked the
Minister of Human Resources Development when he presented
his plan for social policy reform whether there would be any
savings from the reform. He went into a rhetorical flourish and
said they will not eliminate the deficit on the backs of poor
people.
The world hears this message but the world also knows that
we cannot get away without making such cuts. We will be judged
very harshly, especially in light of the fact that we probably have
the most generous social security net in the world and in the
light of the fact that it is now increasingly recognized that it was
a noble experiment. When we are generous we also create
dependence and increase unemployment as unwanted side
effects.
The world will look for a message on what the government
thinks about the cause of our persistently high unemployment
rate. For years, for decades, American and Canadian
unemployment rates moved in unison. They diverged by very
little until the middle seventies when Canada increased the
generosity of her social programs. Since then the Americans,
who are at the same level of economic prosperity as we are in the
business cycle, have had unemployment rates below 6 per cent.
We are at around 10 per cent. In Canada 4 per cent of the labour
force is unemployed, yet there is no explanation for it. If the
deficit could eliminate it, if large exports could eliminate it, if
low interest rates could have eliminated it a few years ago, it
would have happened. It is not just me who is saying this. The
cause is somewhere else.
Unless the government addresses these issues investors will
be very unhappy. The probability is that the need for reform and
for tough measures on all these issues will not come after
deliberate consideration in the House or in committee. It will be
imposed by governments and international organizations we
have to go to in order to get money to stabilize our exchange rate
and interest rate.
It is not a happy picture. We do not enjoy talking about these
things. I appreciate the hon. member cannot say more about it,
but the generalities that we heard again today are not the way to
go. I appreciate the opportunity to share these thoughts with the
House and the people of Canada.
Mr. Walker: Mr. Speaker, it is difficult to know where to
begin. It is obvious that the rough edges of his speech were left
for the comments period and not for his actual speech. In his
speech he kept himself on track and was quite reasonable, but
when he stood on comments he began to get a bit sidetracked as
to what the budget process was all about.
The committee very carefully listened to witnesses. We were
very careful in our own presentation to reflect the interest of
Canadians. We can talk about majorities and what the majority
said, but we also have in this country a respect for the minority.
Groups that appeared before us were very concerned about the
programs that were being presented. They asked us to protect the
programs.
The job of a government is not only to get on the high horse of
a protest movement. It is also very much to bring into focus what
a government should be doing in these very difficult times.
I would argue that the approach taken by the majority report
was a reasonable approach. We asked the finance minister to go
further than he was originally intending to go. Then in January
there were increased interest rates and difficulty with the dollar.
I believe it is now accepted that actions will have to be as
dramatic as they can possibly be.
(1050 )
The opposition critic vacillates between two important points
in this debate: between Canadians they are encouraging to fight
against a tax increase and international markets that want to be
reassured we have our house in order.
If we ask somebody in New York who is concerned about the
Canadian budget whether there should be any tax increases, he
would argue that we should do anything to get to our target. He
would say: ``If you are really concerned about what I think, do
what you have to do. If it means tax increases, do it and get to
your target''. Then the Reformers go back to Calgary and say:
``Tell them not to raise taxes''. The whole strategy is made
vulnerable because they are playing a double game and they
know they are playing a double game. Somebody on the floor of
the House of Commons should call them on that.
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I was
wondering if the member has difficulty with his hearing. I was in
Toronto last week on Wednesday night. There were well over
2,000 people jammed into the Sheraton Centre who gave a very
clear message, and I am delivering it to the House: No tax
increase.
I wonder if he could help us understand how it is Liberals do
not understand that message when there are rally after rally,
9571
grassroots organizations after grassroots organizations, buttons,
petitions and everything else. The Liberals are not listening.
Why?
Mr. Walker: Mr. Speaker, if my hearing is bad, perhaps his
eyesight is also bad. Did he see the 5,000 people in Montreal
who were worried about their futures?
[Translation]
Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, I find it hard to be part of a discussion where people
call each other deaf and blind. I am grateful for the chance our
colleagues in the Reform Party have given us to discuss the
government's budget and, in particular, the appropriateness of
keeping taxes and income taxes at their present level in the
Minister of Finance's upcoming budget.
I will say right off that the Bloc Quebecois supports the
Reform Party's statement that increasing taxes and income tax
at the present time, as the Minister of Finance himself
acknowledged when he appeared before the finance committee
in October, would kill the Canadian economy. It would put a
strangle hold on job creation opportunities in the short term and
before Canada enters a new period of slowing down, following
the economic slowdown in the United States.
Thus I say straight off that we support the Reform Party's
proposal that the upcoming budget contain no general increase
in income tax, as the Liberal majority on the finance committee
suggested in December, and no additional taxes. Taxes and
income tax also have an effect on the black market economy, the
underground economy. The Minister of Finance himself
estimated it represented between 10 and 15 per cent of Canada's
GDP. This is a lot and it is the direct result of the excessively
high level of taxes and income tax in Canada.
Having said this, we have not forgotten that the budgetary
situation of the Canadian government is critical, that the
budgetary situation of the governments, as well, in Canada is
one of the worst among industrialized countries. The federal
debt alone, at $558 billion, represents over 80 per cent of the
GDP. This is almost a world record. If we add the provincial
debts, the figure increases from 80 per cent of the GDP to 115
per cent of the GDP. A catastrophe.
Another catastrophe, in terms of Canadian public finances, is
the high proportion of Canadian securities in the hands of
foreigners-43 per cent. This means we have a lot less control
over our economic destiny and, in addition the capacity our
governments have to act in budgetary or other areas is
jeopardized.
(1055)
In regard to this long-standing situation-it has existed for
some ten years-we knew we would find ourselves sooner or
later in a catastrophic situation such as the present one. In spite
of this, the Minister of Finance gave himself a break of nearly a
year and a half. The Minister of Finance has done nothing since
assuming his position. The Minister of Finance has done nothing
but present a first budget which hurt the most vulnerable, a
budget which cut $7.5 billion from unemployment insurance
programs but, in the end, solved nothing because in financial
circles, both in Canada and abroad, the measures were not
viewed as truly serious measures to correct the budget situation
in Canada.
In fact, in May 1994, a mere three months after the first
budget was brought down by the Minister of Finance, the C.D.
Howe Institute was already forecasting additional cuts beyond
those mentioned in the minister's budget, additional cuts of $7
billion over two years to allow the Minister of Finance to
achieve his goal of a federal deficit of $25 billion for 1996-97,
that is 3 per cent of GDP.
In his economic statement of last October-just to give
members an example of the seriousness or, to be more precise,
the lack thereof, and laziness on the part of the Minister of
Finance-the minister estimated that costs would have to be cut
not by $7 billion, as the C.D. Howe Institute indicated, but by
more than $9 billion. And since January, precisely because of
the lack of serious intent on the part of the Minister of Finance,
his inability to take truly corrective measures and immediate
action, we are now facing necessary cuts estimated at between
$12 and $16 billion over the next two years because of variable
interest rates. Over a seven month period, forecasts were
changed four times as pertains to required cuts or new revenues
if the Canadian government is to meet its goal of reducing the
deficit to 3 per cent of GDP as established by the Minister of
Finance.
And people wonder why things are not going well. People
wonder why they still do not know what the federal government
is doing to correct the situation. This is what happens when
nothing is done for a year and a half, when financial circles tell
us for a year and a half, with increasing urgency, that nothing is
being done to correct the situation: panic sets in. And at present,
we are seeing total panic from the Liberal government. They do
not really know where to go from here. They are making
proposals left and right. They have been sending test balloons
out over the last two or three months, but have failed to do what
was needed for a year and a half.
I would even say that not only is the official opposition
awaiting the Minister of Finance's next budget, but also the
entire international community. Indeed, all foreign investors
who hold Canadian debt securities are getting ready to pounce
on the Minister of Finance.
The next budget needs to be a budget that clearly shows that a
structural reform is taking place, that measures are being taken,
not just haphazard measures but serious corrective measures.
Not just superficial cuts, cuts concealing the true catastrophic
state of our public finances, but real cuts, airtight fiscal mea-
9572
sures that will not only permit the Minister of Finance to brag,
and pat himself on the back for, reaching his goal of bringing the
deficit down to three per cent of GDP in 1996-97, we will come
back to this later, but real proof that the Minister of Finance has
gotten public finances under control. This is what financial
circles are expecting.
And let me tell you that if they are not convinced that this and
the 1996-97 budgets contain serious corrective measures and
take at least some strain off the public finances, since that is the
heart of the problem, I would say that they are going to demand
risk premiums, like they did in January and May 1994. In
addition to the regular return they receive on Canadian debt
securities, they will demand that an additional percentage be
tacked on to compensate for the absolutely decrepit state of
Canada's public finances and for the Minister of Finance's lack
of action, other than his stand-up comedy act, to really correct
the situation.
(1100)
I would argue that people are a little tired of hearing the
government and its representatives tell us every day that they
will achieve their goal of reducing the deficit to 3 per cent of
GDP.
I will make two comments on this. First, if they want to reduce
the deficit to 3 per cent of GDP by continuing to slash social
programs enthusiastically, they are on the wrong track. People
are fed up with this government's hypocrisy. They are fed up
with the red book telling them that they will be protected against
underemployment or other social problems they may face and
with a government that has been doing exactly the opposite in
the past year.
The government has cut UI and stopped contributing to the UI
fund. It is raising the spectre of additional cuts in transfers for
social assistance, post-secondary education and even pensions.
They have been talking about it on that side of the House for
about six months. People are fed up with the Liberals' actions,
which are not consistent with the reasons they were elected in
October 1993.
Second, let me reiterate that even if the government managed
to reduce the deficit to 3 per cent of GDP by 1996-97, it would
not solve anything, and that is a little indecent. They tell us
every day that they will reduce the deficit to 3 per cent of GDP
and solve everything, but that will not solve anything. In
1996-97, we will still be saddled with a $25 billion deficit and,
most importantly, with a debt approaching $625 billion. So they
are not solving the problem. They are behaving like a
government that only cares about being re-elected in three
years.
From a structural point of view, they are not solving the
federal debt problem at all. With a $625 billion debt, the
problem will be just as serious in 1996-97 as it is today; the
public finance crisis will be as serious as it is today. That is, in
my opinion, Canada's biggest problem. There are other
problems but that is the biggest one.
Despite the gravity of the problem, this government, which
bragged during the election campaign of wanting to create as
many jobs as possible, is doing, in my opinion, the opposite of
what it should be doing as a result of its attitude toward public
finance.
The debt is so big that going after domestic savings to
periodically finance part of this debt pushes up interest rates.
Interest rates are going up in this country. The Minister of
Finance has lost his credibility with international investors, who
are demanding higher yields, and this is also putting upward
pressure on interest rates, which in turn affects our national
interest rates.
If you happen to be an investor and want to invest money and
create jobs, you will invest less and create fewer jobs because of
high interest rates due to the pressure of the debt on the
Canadian economy, the so-called crowding out effect, and it
will not be any different in 1996-97. This jeopardizes our
chances of experiencing a really strong economic recovery with
substantial job creation.
When we consider how job creation has evolved during the
past two and half years since the end of the recession, or at least
its end in technical terms, it should come as no surprise that in
Canada we are still about 800,000 jobs short of reaching the
same labour force participation rate that existed before the first
quarter of 1990 or before the recession began. And this is all
because of the federal debt.
Even the Department of Finance has calculated that structural
unemployment is at 8.5 per cent, in Canada, because of the size
of the debt. Even with an economy that is doing well, even when
the circumstances for job creation are ideal, the unemployment
rate is around 8.5 per cent because of the size of the debt and the
pressure of the debt on the economy, and the situation will not
change until the structural problems besetting Canada's public
finances have been solved.
(1105)
That is the situation, and I do not think there is any reason for
members on the other side to be proud of what the Minister of
Finance has accomplished in one year. If I were the minister, I
would be ashamed, and if I were the government, I would be
even more so.
In any case, and I have a few minutes left, the official
opposition wanted to make its own contribution last October
when the Minister of Finance appeared before the committee,
and we repeated our suggestions last December when the Liberal
majority tabled its report on pre-budget consultations. We
wanted to make a short-term contribution that would at least
reduce the impact of the deficit and give the Minister of Finance
9573
a chance to brag that he would hit his 3 per cent of GDP target.
We wanted to submit recommendations as an alternative to the
drastic cuts in social programs which the government has made
and plans to continue.
We made ten recommendations, and I will mention the first
eight, which are the most important ones. The first one, and I
want the Secretary of State for Finance to listen very carefully,
because although his minister realizes we made
recommendations, he himself insists we never did, or maybe he
cannot read and in that case, he should learn or at least find out
about the recommendations enclosed with the report tabled by
the Finance Committee last December.
The first recommendation we submitted to the Minister of
Finance, to help him be on target with his deficit of 3 per cent of
GDP in 1996-97, was that the federal government should
withdraw altogether from areas under provincial jurisdiction.
For Quebec alone, this means a savings of $2 to $3 billion a year
by eliminating overlap, duplication and redundant
administration.
The second recommendation we made to the Minister of
Finance-and we are still waiting for him and his team to
analyse these recommendations-is that we stop giving
subsidies to business, which, last year, amounted to $3.3 billion
and which are, more often than not, a form of patronage for
friends of the Liberal Party of Canada rather than real support to
business in meeting the challenges of globalization. Here then is
$3 billion; a big savings in reaching the goal of reducing the
federal deficit to 3 per cent of the GDP in 1996-97.
The third recommendation we made to the Minister of
Finance, and we continue to stand by it, was to make a further
cut of at least $1.6 billion in the national defence budget. This
would have meant a 25 per cent cut in the defence budget over
the past two years. This corresponds to the analysis we made
during the electoral campaign. We held that, even with a 25 per
cent budget cut, national defence could retain its past and
present efficiency in a world of reduced international tensions.
The fourth recommendation, and we still make this
recommendation to the federal government, which claims to
want to avoid white elephants and wastage, is that, if it wants to
maintain some credibility, it withdraw from the Hibernia
project, which has already absorbed some $3 billion with no
promise of producing any profits within the next twenty years. If
this government wants to do something other than playing
politics, if it wants to be taken seriously, it must withdraw from
the Hibernia project.
The fifth recommendation, one we have been making for a
long time-but I think the Liberal government lacks
transparency-is for a complete review of the taxation system.
Complete, from A to Z, including the 16 tax treaties signed
between Canada and several countries which are, in fact,
regarded as tax havens.
Businesses can claim operating losses abroad, repatriate these
losses, though they are fictitious losses, and deduct them from
their Canadian income to avoid paying taxes. That too is a major
problem, and will become an even bigger one if allowed to
continue.
(1110)
We had also asked, in the context of this taxation review, that
the privileges associated with family trusts be eliminated.
Shortly before adjournment, we made a motion in the finance
committee which was readily defeated by Liberals and
Reformers. Why? Because it affected privileges enjoyed by
their buddies, the wealthiest of Canadians, who avoid taxes year
after year by paying no tax on capital gains or on personal
fortunes valued at several hundred million if not several billion
dollars. We cannot quote the precise figure because, although
the Minister of Finance is ostensibly in favour of transparency,
his department does not want to conduct the studies necessary to
determine the true value of these tax loopholes.
The seventh recommendation would be to impose a true
minimum tax on corporate profits. Not with the aim of adding to
their tax burden, but because several thousand companies have
paid no taxes in the last ten years. We must be sure, at least, that
they are escaping taxes because of their specific production
conditions and product-process cycles and not because they
have hired tax experts to save money by not paying Canadian
taxes.
The eighth recommendation is one of the most important. I
was saving it for the end. The auditor general even made the
same recommendation, in his last report, regarding the $6.6
billion that Canadians owe in unpaid income taxes. These are
not amounts in dispute, but simply money owed to the federal
government that has remained uncollected due to the
government's lax approach and failure to allot the resources
necessary to recover these amounts. The auditor general's own
opinion is that 80 per cent of the amount owed, more than $5
billion, could be recovered if only enough resources were
available for the task.
In conclusion, we too are not in favour of new general taxes,
as was recommended in the Liberal majority reports from the
finance committee, but at the same time, we recommend that the
government find ways to improve, even in the slightest way, the
state of Canada's public finances, at least on the short term,
because we have very serious longer term problems.
[English]
Mr. Barry Campbell (St. Paul's, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on
behalf of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance
I have a few comments I would like to make to the member
opposite-
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member cannot make
comments on behalf of another member. He has to speak on his
own behalf, not on behalf of someone else.
9574
Mr. Campbell: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that correction.
Canadians might have a little sympathy for the government
after seeing this spectacle of members opposite saying no taxes,
while the opposition was saying through the last speaker no cuts
and maybe we should have tax increases.
What bothers me particularly about the last comments from
the opposition critic are the internal consistencies in his very
statement. Those members speak often about logic, yet I hear
them say: ``We recommended a whole host of cuts. On one hand,
cut national defence spending but of course not in Quebec. Cut
Hibernia but help out MIL Davie'', which we heard much about
in the months leading up to the Christmas recess.
There were other thoughts about family trusts. The comments
on family trusts, as in the minority report they proposed, reflect
a complete misunderstanding of the role of trusts in Canada and
the importance of family trusts to family businesses, to small
businesses, to families; completely misrepresenting the
importance and reality of trusts. In the fullness of time, I have
confidence the finance committee will issue a majority report
that sets the record straight.
With respect to three per cent and the three per cent figure, on
one hand we have members opposite saying that it is not enough.
On the other hand we get criticized by the opposition critic for
adjusting our outlook to take into account the real world, reality,
and to make sure we get there.
(1115 )
When we meet that target it will be the first time in a long time
that we have met a target in the right direction. It will go a great
distance toward restoring the credibility that members opposite
suggest is lacking in financial markets and go a great way
toward restoring the confidence we should have in our ability to
solve our problems.
[Translation]
Mr. Loubier: Mr. Speaker, absolutely, I have a reply for my
colleague, a reply to his three questions. Regarding
inconsistency, because we are proposing cuts at the same time as
we are asking for an increase in the national defence budget in
Quebec, I would say that if there is any inconsistency, it is on the
other side, not here. We have always been consistent with
ourselves, with our option and, above all, with our analysis of
the situation.
At the present time, 17.4 per cent of national defence
spending takes place in Quebec. We represent very close to a
quarter of the population, or, if you consider it in terms of taxes
paid, we pay almost 23 per cent of the taxes collected by the
federal government, but we receive only 17.4 per cent of the
spending. This means that there are others receiving more than
they should in terms of population or in terms of their
contribution to the federal coffers.
What we have always said is that cuts should be across the
board, but with an adjustment for Quebec. This is what happens
in the case of agriculture, it is what happens in most areas. So,
that dispenses with the first inconsistency.
The second point was family trusts. My colleague claims that
I have no idea of the importance of family trusts, but neither
does he. And do you know why? Because we repeatedly asked
the Finance Committee, senior officials in the finance
department, the finance minister, the revenue minister, and
senior officials in the revenue department to provide us with an
exhaustive evaluation of how much money is in family trusts
and the resultant losses in tax revenue to the federal coffers. So
he can stop talking about the importance of family trusts,
because he is just as much in the dark about them as we are.
We have estimates and are at least trying to give some thought
to the magnitude of tax losses resulting from trusts and from tax
agreements. My colleague prefers to turn a blind eye to these
fiscal inequalities. If we are going to talk about credibility, I
would say that the Liberals should look in their own back yard.
There has been no sign of credibility for a year and a half now.
[English]
Mr. Ray Speaker (Lethbridge, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I would
like to pose two questions to the hon. member who has just
spoken in response to the member for St. Paul's.
The first question is with regard to tax increases. The hon.
member for Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot indicated that the Bloc as
a party did not want tax increases. Then he went on to say that
maybe there are some places where new taxes can be applied.
Is the Bloc Quebecois saying there should be no net tax
increases of any kind and that if there is a redistribution because
of a change in tax policy, that if there is an increase in revenue in
one area, it should be redistributed to other Canadians by way of
a tax reduction? Is that the position of the Bloc Quebecois, no
tax increases?
I say that in light of some of the other comments and the other
observations that I have made in this assembly. When we look at
the cafeteria of social programs, unemployment insurance,
post-secondary education, old age assistance and also the tax
credit with regard to those people over 65, the Bloc did not want
to allow or make the change that was recommended in the
1994-95 budget.
If we maintain all of those programs at their current level,
how are we going to deal with the deficit and possibly maintain
the tax policy that the hon. member recommended to the House?
9575
I would like the hon. member to comment on that first of all.
Is his party in favour of no tax increases on a net basis?
Second, with regard to family trusts, I am a member of the
finance committee and I have been waiting for some type of a
presentation which indicates that there is a major error in family
trusts. Is the hon. member asking the finance committee or the
government to pass legislation or some mechanism by which it
is able to deal with people's private income and private bank
accounts to derive what is the composition of a family trust?
(1120)
[Translation]
Mr. Loubier: Mr. Speaker, in response to the first question on
taxes, we do not want the Minister of Finance to raise taxes when
he tables his next budget, or the one after that.
However-and I have the feeling my colleague is having
trouble reading our recommendations, does not understand them
or does not want to understand them-, there are inequities in
Canada's current tax system. There are so many inequities, as I
demonstrated a little before the House adjourned last December,
business taxation in Canada has become so ludicrous that some
businesses even sell their unused tax deductions to other
businesses. There was a classified advertisement in the
newspaper offering a tax loss for sale to businesses that could
use it. If you do not find this ludicrous, there is a problem.
What we are saying is that there are loopholes to be closed,
inequities to be corrected in our tax system. As a result, we have
been recommending for a year and a half that the government
undertake a comprehensive review of the tax system.
We already know about the loopholes. The auditor general has
already pointed out some of them. He mentioned the 16 tax
treaties, saying that there were problems with them because they
were often concluded with countries considered to be tax
havens, where Canadian businesses open fictitious subsidiaries,
report fictitious losses, and manage not to pay what they owe
Revenue Canada.
If you want to maintain these inequities, these loopholes,
these inconsistencies, while asking Canadian men and women to
tighten their belts another notch, there is a problem within the
Reform Party although it is not the only problem.
As for family trusts, let me reiterate that the Minister of
Finance held out his hand to us by saying that he would let a
finance subcommittee look into the matter of family trusts, that
it would be given carte blanche, that his officials would visit the
committee and do whatever it would ask them to do. It was a
monumental farce.
It was even, I would say-no, I will not say it because it would
be unparliamentary-but it is a monumental farce. We had four
months of regular hearings. We met with officials and experts.
Imagine, the Liberal chair told the officials that they did not
have to answer the questions. Enough is enough. There is a
problem with respect to the relations between the government
and senior officials. Senior officials can answer if they feel like
it. They never responded to that.
How can we propose specific measures when you and I along
with my Liberal colleagues do not know what is happening with
family trusts nor how much money we are losing as a result of
the tax treaties.
There is a lack of transparency, of understanding, and I think
that it has become ridiculous.
[English]
Mr. Jim Peterson (Willowdale, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to rise in the House today on this important issue. It is
very important that Canadians have access to the facts and to the
issues that face us. We are going to be forced in the next budget
to make some of the most difficult budgetary decisions that have
been made in this Parliament's history, probably the most
difficult decisions that we have had to make outside wartime.
As Canadians know, the government inherited a national debt
of $500 billion and an annual deficit that had gone up to over $45
billion. As much as we politicians wish we could spend money
on people and help people, we can no longer continue at this
rate.
If we do not get the deficits down and start to eventually
reduce our national debt, we will continue to be even more
hostage to the international capital markets whose investors are
demanding higher and higher interest rates in order to fund our
debt. It is a debt which is so enormous we can no longer fund it
out of the pockets and the savings of Canadians alone.
(1125)
If we do not get the deficit down we will no longer be able to
have the economic climate in which we can get lower interest
rates, have more investment and create more jobs. Unless we are
able to meet the deficit targets that have been set, every one of
our social programs will be in jeopardy. We will not much longer
be able to go on spending way beyond our means and yet create
the type of Canada that all of us want.
It is going to be a difficult task as we go about, over the next
two years, of taking maybe $10 billion, $12 billion or even $14
billion in budgetary actions, that is spending and/or tax
increases.
One of the things that we must continually bear in mind as we
make these difficult decisions and choices is that when social
programs are cut, programs designed to protect the most vulner-
9576
able in our nation, it must be done with caution, with
compassion and with care. For so many Canadians these
programs are the only means to security, dignity and
opportunity.
In making the difficult decisions that we are called on to make
and that we shall make, let us not only remember those who are
most in need, but let us also remember that the burden should, to
the extent possible, be shared fairly by all Canadians.
We know and the finance committee in its report recognized
that Canadians are just about at the ceiling of taxation. Personal
income tax rates are very high. When they are combined with the
taxes on commodities, the payroll taxes and municipal taxes,
Canadians are saying: ``We want less. We are prepared to do
with less. We cannot afford vastly higher taxes in order to
continue the lifestyle to which we have become used''.
However, they are also saying to us that when these cuts are
made, please be fair. We will be judged, first of all on whether
we meet those deficit targets, and we had better meet them, but
we will be judged on whether we have done it fairly.
When we cut social programs are we really asking the wealthy
in our society to contribute? How are they bearing their fair
share when all we are doing is cutting programs? We have $3.1
billion in business subsidies. We want to get rid of all of those as
quickly as we can. However realistically our committee looked
at these, we said that we probably could not cut more than 36 per
cent of those subsidies over the next two years. That will
contribute slightly over a billion dollars to deficit reduction. It
is not going to be enough.
We may just have to suggest that the very well-off in our
society contribute their share to the deficit reduction targets
through a few added tax measures. This is why we suggested in
our report that we could perhaps ask the large corporations,
corporations with capital over $10 million who do not pay taxes
because they have losses carried forward or they have capital
cost allowances expenditures, to pay just a little bit more.
Maybe we could ask Canadians who have huge winnings on
lotteries to put 10 per cent or 15 per cent of the winnings toward
the deficit reduction. Is it fair to say to wage earners that they
will be taxed at 53 per cent or 54 per cent on their wages but that
they can make a million dollars in a lottery and not pay any taxes
at all?
(1130)
We recognize our marginal tax rates over the past nine or ten
years of Tory government have become less and less
progressive. The wealthy in Canada are paying less tax
proportionately than the poor and middle income Canadian have
been asked to pay.
We suggested that low and middle income Canadians should
have their surtax reduced by one percentage point. We think this
would introduce an element of fairness. In the overall package
that we called for, recognizing that budget cuts must be the
prime factor, we said that for about every $9 billion in
expenditure cuts we might need about $1 billion in tax increases
over the next two years. I do not believe Canadians are going to
be reluctant to accept some of the proposed measures,
particularly when they are expressed in terms of the fairness we
must go about practising when all Canadians are asked to
contribute to helping us get out of the mess we are in.
The principle of fairness applies not only to the most
disadvantaged of Canadians who need our programs in many
cases. This does not mean that we should not reform our
programs to help people get off welfare more quickly or to help
them rely less on unemployment insurance. After all, we want
Canadians want to be working and not be on the dole.
In setting these difficult courses we have to start with
ourselves in Parliament. We cannot ask Canadians to make
greater sacrifices than we are prepared to make ourselves. This
is why the first item of business must be the pensions of
members of Parliament before we ask other Canadians to make
their sacrifices. This is why we have called in our report for
major areas to be cut, namely the $20 billion out of $120 billion
in program spending. This $20 billion applies to our government
operations, how we conduct our business and how we conduct
our affairs. We have said that over two years it should be cut by
12 per cent. In terms of parliamentarians in our own little niche,
we have called for a cut of 15 per cent.
I have mentioned business subsidies. We believe we can get
rid of most of them over time. There are outstanding
commitments that we just cannot break. Therefore we concluded
that we had to be practical. About the most we can hope to get rid
of over the next two years is 36 per cent. I believe the total
amount would be slightly over $1 billion.
We have to bring a new philosophy to how government deals
with the private sector. If the only way a private sector
enterprise can exist is through government handouts and
government grants, it will not be long before we can no longer
afford the grants and handouts. Not only that, it is not fair to
legitimate operators who do not rely on the dole or do not rely on
the deep pockets of government but compete with industries that
get these breaks. Not only that. With the new trading regime, the
GATT and the NAFTA, we have less and less ability to interfere
in this way because subsidies will be subject to countervail.
(1135)
We are in a new world. We are in a world that many Canadians
would not have believed 10 years ago that we would be facing
today. The levers of control we had as a national government are
no longer there. Whether we like it or not we have to live with
the new reality of global competitiveness, international capital
flows and international investment.
9577
This will impose upon us new challenges. However one of
the challenges cannot be grants to business. That is why we
suggested abolishing all outright grants to business. We cannot
give business a leg up by way of a loan because our capital
markets are not working adequately to supply all small
businesses and entrepreneurs with the startup capital they need.
However, if we are to do it, let us do it only on a loan basis. We
will lend the money but let us make sure that we have equity in
the company. We do not want a one-way street for the public
sector such that if the business goes under we lose it. We want to
ensure that if the business profits from the investment we make
by way of a loan there is an upside for us so that we have money
to fund programs and to make them self-funding and
self-liquidating.
There are other areas where we have called for cuts. One such
area is subsidies. We have about $7.7 billion in subsidies for
various crown corporations and others like that. Let us start
weaning them from subsidies. Here we have called for a 10 per
cent cut. The lowest cut we called for was within the overall
package of social programs worth about $40 billion at which the
human resources development committee was looking. Because
many of these programs go to the most vulnerable in our society
we called for cuts of 7 per cent over two years.
There is a number of areas in which the committee did not feel
there could be cuts, such as Canada's native people, the Inuit and
veterans, people who have a lot of catching up to do because our
programs may not be working adequately to bring about the type
of social justice they need.
We were also very concerned about the aging population.
Many Canadians have not provided for their own retirement
needs. Too few Canadians are taking advantage of the very
generous tax breaks available to provide for their own
retirement. The ideal would be as our population ages that fewer
Canadians have to rely on government.
This is a major issue and none of us pretends to have the
answer. That is why we suggested before changes were made to
retirement provisions, pension plans and RRSPs that we had to
take into consideration a number of principles. One is parity
between public sector and private sector pensions. Another is
the need of those who are self-employed and have to provide for
their own retirement through registered retirement savings
plans. They need to be able to build a pension fund comparable
to those who have been in the private sector and have had long
years of contributions to private pension plans.
We also have to look at our public responsibility. Right now
we are spending about $15 billion in forgone tax revenues-we
can call them tax expenditures or whatever we want-to
encourage self-sufficiency during retirement. Before we change
this regime we should do so in the context of how we help more
and more Canadians provide for a secure and dignified
retirement. We are becoming more and more an aging
population.
(1140)
The challenge before us is not an easy one. We have called for
getting our deficit down over a two-year period from about $40
billion to about $25 billion. That is about 3 per cent of gross
domestic product.
Why is that 3 per cent level important? It is important because
with the current growth that is the level where our economy will
be growing more quickly than our national debt. That will be the
turning point. It will only be one turning point. We will have to
go much further in subsequent years. We will have to start at
some point paying down a huge national debt that will absorb
one-quarter of our national expenditures this year. It takes
one-third of every tax dollar paid to the federal government.
I hope we might be able to go slightly beyond the targets.
Why? It is because we never know what the economic
circumstances will be a few months down the road. We have
seen the volatility of interest rates over the last three or four
months that make the moderate projections in the papers tabled
by the finance minister now seem passé. We are on to a new
scenario. We do not know whether it will happen in the future
but we must be prepared for it because our credibility depends
on at least meeting those targets.
We need a cushion. It is fundamental to have a cushion for an
additional reason. Let us admit that we might make mistakes
when making cuts that we are not used to doing and we are
probably not going to be extremely good at doing. We might
unduly prejudice individuals we did not intend to hurt. We might
cause pain where it is not deserved. I know we will bring to these
people a Liberal spirit of generosity in attempting to undo any
harm that was not intended.
Let us approach this tremendous challenge with the spirit of
fairness and with the spirit that every Canadian must be called
upon to contribute his or her fair share to getting our national
resources and our financial picture in shape. Let us not achieve it
on the backs of those who are most vulnerable in the country. Let
us do it in a spirit of humility that we cannot be right 100 per cent
of the time, that we will make mistakes and that we want to hear
from Canadians as to where we have made those errors. If that is
the case on reflection, let us freely admit that we have made a
mistake and rectify it quickly.
By following these principles we can go into the next decades
with a much healthier Canada and with a much stronger Canada.
We will be able to pass on to succeeding generations what our
mothers and fathers have given us: a strong and united Canada.
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay East, Ref.): Madam Speaker,
before I became involved in politics which was only 15 months
9578
ago, I was wondering what was meant by the term code words in
politics. I suggest code words are being used by the Liberals.
With due respect to the chairman of the finance committee,
when he uses the word ``fair'' and the phrase ``contribute their
fair share'' what he is really talking about is a further tax
increase. Taxes are simply the confiscation of wealth.
(1145)
It is absolutely outrageous that this government would be
compounding the problems created by the Conservatives,
particularly with the corporations, that when the corporations
have a loss, a no profit year, the government would turn around
and confiscate some of their working capital by virtue of the fact
that it says they did not make a profit this year, therefore it is
going to tax them. It is a simply confiscation of their ability to be
able to fund their enterprise. It is absolutely outrageous.
The top 10 per cent of people earning over the $51,000 figure
pay 50 per cent of the income taxes. How much fairer can we
possibly get? The top 1 per cent who earn over $100,000 pay 15
per cent. How much fairer can we get? Is this not progressive
enough?
The reality is that according to well documented and fully
accepted statistics, the average tax take on Canadians at all
levels of government at this point is 46 cents out of every dollar.
How much fairer can we get? Is there any more room in
taxation?
Considering that, let us get away from the $51,000 and the
$100,000 ranges and talk about the average family income, a
joint family income of $46,488. Consider that family spends
$17,000 on food, clothing and shelter. However, with all levels
of government as a result of past activity of the federal
government down loading the taxation to other levels of
government, that family with an after tax income of $46,488,
$17,000 of which is spent on food, clothing and shelter, has a tax
bill of $21,000, which is $4,000 more than it costs to cover food,
clothing and shelter.
Does the chairman not believe that there is no more room, no
net tax increase, that this is the only position this government
can take?
Mr. Peterson: Madam Speaker, I do not believe that for one
minute.
There are some inconsistencies here. The hon. member has
talked about down loading. That is the concept whereby when
we make cuts in program spending or transfers to the provinces,
are those services going to be performed at a lower level of
government, either the provincial or municipal government?
In some cases those services will not be performed because
there is no money available. As the member points out,
provinces have increased their taxes in response to certain down
loadings that have taken place. Is he saying that we should not be
downloading this time? Why are they calling for cuts in
transfers-
Mr. Abbott: Provide tax room.
Mr. Peterson: That is to me a great inconsistency. The
member has also said that a large corporation with $10 million
in capital that is running at a loss position should not have to pay
taxes. I agree. However, if the corporation apart from loss
carryovers and apart from capital cost allowances is actually
experiencing a profitable year in terms of income but not in
terms of taxable income, perhaps it could contribute a little
more to our deficit reduction. I do not consider that unfair.
If the member is making the point that we are highly taxed, he
is right. We cannot argue with this. Canadians realize this.
However, this is the party that said no new taxes whatsoever.
Then in the next breath it said it will tax the Governor General.
In other words, there are no hard and fast absolute rules.
(1150 )
Let us look at each particular tax measure to see if we can
afford it, if it would make us non-competitive, if it would have
adverse consequences. Let us look at these things with an open
mind.
I go back to the fundamental premise. I cannot guarantee that
our entire tax system is fair today, that everybody is paying their
fair share of taxes. We know that overall we are just about at the
limit. We found over two years $1.1 billion in possible net tax
increases that we thought might work. Two hundred million
dollars out of the proceeds of lotteries; is it unfair that we should
have a 10 or 15 per cent tax on $1 million won through a lottery?
Mr. Abbott: Taxing a dream.
Mr. Peterson: The hon. member says it is taxing a dream. We
are also taking 15 per cent out of $1 million which was unearned
as opposed to taking over 50 per cent out of the pocket of the
person who has to toil all day long in order to earn that wage. Is
that the concept of fairness?
I hope we do not approach this from an absolute statistic point
of view. There may be certain cases in which only tax increases
will give rise to that fairness but we face another problem, as the
hon. members know. When we cut federal programs we do not
often in the first year or in the second year obtain actual savings.
When we close down a military base and put people on the
street do we actually save in expenditures when we have to
provide for unemployment, severance, reconfiguring the land,
getting rid of equipment and materials and things like this? We
do not always have savings in the first two years.
I believe our deficit crisis is such that we have to meet our
targets that we have set and we have to meet them within the
time limit we set. Therefore expenditure cuts alone, while they
will produce the savings we need over the longer term, may not
work adequately in the first two years. This is why we may need
9579
a little tax room on a temporary basis during the first one or two
years in order to meet those targets.
I hope that Canadians will keep an open mind when they see
the program, when they see the budget that comes down. I hope
they will come to the conclusion that the single most important
thing we must do is meet our deficit reduction targets.
The second most important priority is how we meet them. If
we had to have minor tax adjustments in order to meet those
targets, in order to be fair I believe that Canadians would say
they do not like them, they may not like the cuts we have
imposed but they will judge our overall budget package in terms
of all of its aspects; who has been hurt through the cuts, who is
hurt through the tax increases, minor as they may be, if there are
any. We will be prepared to be judged on the basis of that entire
package.
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Vegreville, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I
have a question for the hon. member for Willowdale.
The hon. member talked about this government's
commitment to balancing the budget and he talked about the
target of its very weak goal of 3 per cent of GDP in three years.
The interesting thing about that is it is a moving target. It has
been much more rapidly moving than economic growth. The
government started out talking about $22 billion. Lately the talk
has been of $25 billion. It is a rapidly moving target.
The hon. member talked about economic growth and how it
has been much higher than what was forecast. The interesting
thing is that although economic growth has been much higher
than forecasts I have not seen an acceleration in the reduction of
the deficit to correspond with this income which was not
anticipated.
(1155 )
I would like to ask the hon. member why there has not been a
reduction in the three year target to correspond with the
unexpected increase in growth.
Mr. Peterson: Madam Speaker, I am pleased to respond to
that. All Canadians need an answer.
The member is right. Our growth in Canada has been higher
than the norm that was set out, the target that was set out, the
standard that was set out in the finance minister's economic
analysis. All of us on all sides of the House I believe are pleased
that our growth has been this vigorous. It means we are creating
more jobs. It means we have unemployment down from over 11
per cent when we took office to under 10 per cent now. This is
very encouraging because the reason we have to meet deficit
targets is not an abstract study. It is not just because we want the
deficit down. It is because we want to help the economy that can
create the jobs and the opportunities.
Offside right now in terms of the targets, in spite of excellent
growth, the interest rates have gone much higher than we
thought. That is the problem and that is one of the reasons we
have to meet our targets and get them down. It is one of the main
reasons we will.
The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu): Because the Chair
recognized a Liberal prior to a Reform member, we will be doing
two blocks of Reform speakers beginning with the hon. member
for Lethbridge.
Mr. Ray Speaker (Lethbridge, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I
would like to give notice to the chair that Reform intends to
divide its time from this period forward.
The resolution that we have before us that was placed on the
Order Paper by the hon. member for Capilano-Howe Sound
makes a very clear point not only to this House but to Canadians
that we believe there should be no net tax increases at all used to
eliminate the deficit that we face in this country. I think that
should be the focus of the debate here today.
Canadians have told us very clearly, as a Reform caucus, that
is the message that should be brought to this House. I have found
in the last few days that the rate of mail that deals with the matter
of taxes has increased significantly. For example, this morning I
had 80 letters delivered to my office which sent a clear message
that there should be no new taxes or no net tax increase of any
kind in the upcoming budget expected at the end of February
1995. I think that is a message we should listen to and not ignore
it at all when we are debating this issue.
It is important that this resolution is on the floor here today
prior to the finalization of the 1995-96 budget because the
minister and the Liberal government must hear a clear message.
By debating this supply motion I think the clear message can be
presented here on behalf of Canadians.
I want to put into the record a copy of a letter I received that
was directed to the finance minister. I have the approval of the
author of this letter to make it available in this House if
necessary. The letter comes from a resident of my constituency
from Magrath, Alberta, Mr. McClung. I thought he put this tax
question clearly on the table as a middle income taxpayer of
Canada.
He said this to our finance minister as of January 31, 1995:
``Sir, I am mad as hell and I am not going to take it any more.
Don't raise taxes, cut your spending. If you raise taxes on
gasoline I will be forced by you to cut back on my driving. If you
raise taxes on milk I will drink water. If you raise taxes on goods
and services I will cut back on my purchases of taxed goods and
services. If you raise taxes on my income I will be forced by you
to again follow the above pattern.
9580
(1200 )
``In my workforce lifetime of 36 years I have seen my take
home pay dwindle and my purchasing power of that take home
pay dwindle to the extent that I now need a second job in order to
pay for my basic needs of shelter, food, clothing and
transportation.
``Your suggestion of raising taxes is revolting. It will not fly
this time. This is a revolt against higher taxes. Follow the lead
from the states in the United States who have raised taxes and
achieved the negative revenue increase and from those states
who have lowered taxes and have achieved their goal of
increased revenues''.
His final advice to the minister is this: ``Tighten your belt as I
have tightened mine''. Thousands and thousands of Canadians
want that message placed on the floor of the House of Commons
prior to the delivery of the 1995-96 budget.
Canadians do not only feel very strongly about taxes not being
increased, but they also feel they are not getting value for their
dollar. They also feel they are not getting the services nor the
results from that dollar that is sent to Ottawa where it is
redistributed in a variety of ways.
They asked this very basic question. ``Where were our tax
dollars being spent? I cannot see any difference, except that I
have less left over at the end of the day''. They have less in their
pockets to spend on their own personal needs. If we look at some
of the statistics available to us, that comment is only reinforced
and confirmed in many ways.
Canadians today are paying more in taxes but a smaller
percentage of these dollars are really being spent on services. In
1961 the average family's tax bill was 22 per cent of the family
income. Today in 1994 the average family's tax bill is 46 per
cent of that respective income.
I know we have all heard the projection as to how many
months of the year we pay taxes to various forms of government.
Not too long ago we paid taxes until the month of May. Now we
are paying taxes until the month of June and then after the month
of June we have some money left over for our own personal
needs and support for our family responsibilities.
We also find that since 1980 alone the average family's tax
bill has increased on average by $3,500. That includes a variety
of taxes that are paid. That is a major increase, a major
imposition on Canadians.
If we look at the other side of what is happening in terms of
services, we will see the other part of this paradox that
Canadians talk about, the fact that there are less services. I have
heard that expounded here in this assembly.
People today find that crime is spreading. There is more
crime, more dollars are being spent. This country's roads,
bridges and infrastructure are somewhat deteriorating. The
government is trying to shore that up with some kind of an
infrastructure program that really did not directed to roads and
bridges like it should have.
It got involved in a lot of other hobby projects and projects
that seemed to be the pet objectives of local, provincial and
federal politicians, but not on target in terms of what is really the
basic infrastructure. Look at hospital beds for example across
Canada. Waiting lists have been growing while we have been
spending more and taxing more on the Canadian people.
The question is obvious. Why has this happened? It is because
of our debt. We owe too much money and it is costing us too
much to keep on going the way we have been. In fact, if we look
at it in a small segment of time, every minute costs us $86,000 in
terms of interest on the debt. Interest on the debt was about 10
per cent of government spending in 1974. Today it is over 25 per
cent. In other words, 25 cents out of every dollar that
government spends goes to pay the interest on the debt. That is
not good enough.
(1205)
The hon. member for Willowdale has made a very eloquent
speech in this House. He said that the job is tough. It is a difficult
job to face this deficit question and the government is going to
stand up to it. He also said in those remarks-and I hear other
Liberal members saying it at the same time-that we are going
to introduce new taxes when the budget is brought down at the
end of February.
The hon. member for Willowdale said: ``We are just about at
the ceiling''. Those are the kind of weaselly words we use
sometimes as politicians to say: ``We are going to do something.
We do not think we have pressed you hard enough. We do not
think we have taken enough from you. We are just about there
but we can take more''.
In the Reform Party we believe we are at the ceiling.
Canadians believe we are at the ceiling. We have paid enough
taxes and there is no room between us and the ceiling of
taxation.
The government has made a great case to Canadians about the
fact that we have to create jobs. If we tax more, what is going to
happen to the jobs?
The question was raised earlier about the hurt in terms of
taxes and the economy. We know it will hurt individuals. We
know it will hurt the budget of this country. Every 1 per cent
increase in our interest rates, which is a direct result of increased
taxes, will create a problem. I do not think that is acceptable.
Mr. Harold Culbert (Carleton-Charlotte, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I listened with great interest to the hon. member's
presentation this morning.
One of the things I should tell him and other members of the
Reform Party is that they are not the only party or the only body
9581
to invent public forums to create the opportunity for people to
provide direct input to their members. Like the Minister of
Finance and many other members of this House, I have had
many public forums.
Last fall we talked about the debt and the deficit. We talked
about the ratio of offshore debt which we currently have and the
concerns which that gave all of us here in this House as well as
Canadians.
He referred to the goal this government had set of bringing our
debt under control over the next three years, starting with the
current year of bringing the deficit down to $39.7 billion, to go
on to $32.7 billion and $25 billion in the third year, to reach our
3 per cent of gross domestic product. I want to assure the hon.
member across the way that is only the first goal. The second
goal will be to achieve a balanced budget as we go on to tackle
and to break the back of the debt which this country has.
One of the things I have often heard from that side of the
House is: Let us fill those loopholes that are in our taxation
system; I am sure learned accountants across the country will
find new ones if new taxation forms, but let us fill them. The
minister has indicated on many occasions that he will make
every attempt to fill those loopholes.
The system which we have to work with today, which has been
inherited and has been added to over many years is cumbersome.
We would like to streamline it. There is no question it needs to
be done. I believe the minister will make every attempt to fill
those loopholes to make our tax system more fair and equitable
to all Canadians, regardless of whether they are in the upper
echelon of social status, in the middle income group, or in the
lower income group. That is what balance and equity are all
about.
(1210 )
There will be those who will consider that attempt to fill in
those tax loopholes as a tax increase, no question. Anyone it is
going to affect will consider it a tax increase.
I would like to ask the hon. member across the way if that is
not really indeed what he and his party stands for and would
support and which the minister, I certainly hope, will bring forth
in his budget.
Mr. Speaker (Lethbridge): Madam Speaker, the Reform
Party believes there should be no net tax increase in terms of
revenue to the Government of Canada. There is adequate
revenue to support the programs that are here with a change in
some priorities. That is number one.
If we plug a loophole somewhere which increases revenue,
that should not mean we increase the overall revenue but we
should then look at reducing tax somewhere else to the benefit of
Canadians which may create some jobs in the marketplace. That
would be a good transfer if it is possible. We are not against the
plugging of loopholes for fairness, whatever that term means.
On the other side of the balance scale, expenditure reduction
and deficit elimination is the road to which we can balance the
budget and bring our fiscal house in proper order. We do not
believe that 1 per cent of GDP expenditure reduction in three
subsequent years will hurt or harm our economy in any way.
That is a goal that could be achieved.
The government should look at that. The government is not. It
is going to, as the member has stated, work toward the objective
of 3 per cent of GDP, which will accumulate another $100
billion on top of our debt. This means that our interest payments
may go from $40 billion to $50 billion which I think Canadians
do not want to tolerate at this time.
Mr. Cliff Breitkreuz (Yellowhead, Ref.): Madam Speaker,
today our country stands at a crossroads. Some say it is a
watershed year for Canada. Two very crucial issues must be
addressed as we go further into 1995, a year that could very well
be the most decisive since Confederation.
The most important issue which must be addressed this year is
the national deficit and debt crisis. It is growing by $110 million
per day because of federal government mismanagement. The
public is becoming all too aware of the effects of big
government, big spending and big debt.
My colleagues alluded to the effects which are upward
fluctuating interest rates, downward pressure on the dollar,
higher taxes, lower consumer and investor confidence, and of
course a lower standard of living.
It is interesting to examine what has happened to Canada's
fiscal health since the 1960s. That decade rushed in the era of
soak everyone, pay everyone's style of government, a
government that would create a host of programs to look after
the people, the creation of the just society.
Now we see the results of the so-called just society. We have
the social welfare state, unsafe streets and the average family's
tax bill which has soared by 1,200 per cent since 1961. That is
three times the rate of inflation.
The time of government largesse must stop. The Canadian
public is demanding balanced books from all levels of
government. People are tired of paying for programs they never
wanted, they never asked for and they certainly do not want to
pay for.
That is why the Reform's supply motion is so important. We
are asking that the federal government respond to the demands
of Canadians for decisive spending cuts and no net tax increases
to eliminate the deficit and to produce a smaller federal
government.
9582
My constituents are expressing their dismay over continued
federal government mismanagement of their tax dollars. Like
my colleague before me, I receive letters as well, lots of them.
Patrick W. Paul, a concerned taxpayer who lives in Edson in
my Alberta riding of Yellowhead, expressed his sentiments in a
letter to the finance minister. I have his permission to refer to it:
Mr. Paul writes:
I would like to express my extreme concern over the fiscal quagmire our
country of Canada has descended into. The taxpayers of our country have been
forced to shoulder the burden of government fiscal mismanagement for too long.
It is time for government to change. Increased taxes, year after year, rampant out
of control government spending, rising interest rates and an ever downward
spiralling dollar have caused tremendous pressure on the Canadian taxpayer.
Massive government bureaucracy, ridiculous social programs and paper tiger
politicians are costing us too much. We cannot continue. We are the source of
ridicule around the world, from the world press to even more seriously the world
financial community. Our out of control debt, weak willed politicians and
rudderless leadership are the sources of this ridicule.
(1215)
Patrick Paul shares the opinion of most of my constituents
who have taken the time to phone, to write or to stop me on the
street. It is coffee shop talk. They want accountability. They
want the federal government spending spree to stop.
Mr. Paul continues in his letter to the finance minister:
Now is the time to stop this lunacy. Use your mandate to dramatically reduce
government spending and the size of government. This budget must reflect an
immediate move by government to correct our problem. Do not increase taxes
in any way, shape or form! Do not attack my pension plan through any
alterations to the RRSP program-this is my pension plan, not yours. Do not
approach this in a cavalier manner. There is no accountability in the federal
political system, only pandering to special interest groups, lip service and finger
pointing. Stand up, do the right thing and make the necessary cuts required.
Accept the responsibility of your position, be accountable for your actions.
Help your country. We are doing all we can.
Like so many Canadians, Mr. Paul has a warning for the
finance minister and his government:
If this process does not begin with the new budget and there are no significant
moves to correct this out of control situation, I promise that I will do everything
in my power to contribute to the defeat of your party in the next election.
Despite the most serious warning from the taxpayers and
voters of Canada this government continues to be
unaccountable. We keep hearing through the media about
possible tax increases in a few areas. People are demanding
accountability. Unaccountability also takes form through the
convoluted, cooked up answers we receive from the Liberal
government regarding government spending.
Last week my colleague from Fraser Valley West asked a
pertinent question regarding a suspect federal expenditure. He
specifically questioned the merit of a grant for $33,800 for the
study of major league baseball in Detroit and how this possibly
benefits the taxpayers of this country?
The Secretary of State for Science, Research and Technology
expounded a typical non-answer and told the House: ``The
Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council, an
independent arm's length body, has done a great service to
university researchers and has provided a very important
foundation for knowledge in the country''. Since when is the
knowledge of the Detroit Tigers baseball team between 1945
and 1992 of any importance to the knowledge base in Canada?
The Secretary of State for Science, Research and
Development does not have a monopoly on unaccountable
answers in this place. The Minister for Western Economic
Diversification is also good at dodging the issue of
accountability of public funds. I asked him about spending in his
department last week. He reply was filled with more rhetoric
than substance.
I recently released a critical report of the Department of
Western Economic Diversification. This 36 page document
points out the inherent flaws of regional development programs,
including using government money to subsidize private
industry, distorting the competitive marketplace and pork
barrelling.
The report I released, based on date received from the WED
department, showed that the minister's home town of Winnipeg
received a disproportionate amount of WED dollars between
November 1, 1993 and November 15, 1994. The figures used in
this report included a list of all the projects both announced and
published by the department during that year. It shows Winnipeg
received five times more than Vancouver, seven times more than
Calgary and seventy times more than Regina.
In defence of this program the WED minister said there is
another 80 per cent of projects which have not been announced
yet.
(1220 )
I refer to an editorial which recently ran in the Vancouver Sun
which sums up the absurdity of trying to defend this pork barrel
program. The editorial is aptly entitled ``The Sage of
Patronage'' and begins: ``And the prize for the worst political
defence of 1995-yes, it's early but we just can't believe anyone
will outdo this-goes to the staff of minister for Manitoba
patronage, Lloyd Axworthy. Alberta Reform MP Breitkreuz
pointed out that while Manitoba, population one million, had
received $22 million between November 1, 1993 and November
15, 1994, British Columbia with a population of 3.3 million
received $52 million. That is $22 a head for Manitobans, $15.75
for British Columbians''.
9583
The editorial goes on to state: ``Not fair, said Mr. Axworthy's
communications assistant. A better comparison, she said,
would include all projects which have been approved but not
yet announced. Using her figures we see that while Winnipeg,
population 652,000-plus, received $27.4 million, greater
Vancouver with a population of 1.6 million received $19
million. That is $42 for every Winnipeger as against something
less than $12 per head in greater Vancouver''.
In trying to defend this program we see Winnipeg gets even
more money than is stated in my report.
The taxpayers of Canada are tired of politicians trying to
preserve the status quo because it is painfully obvious that the
status quo no longer works. They want and demand their federal
government to be fiscally responsible. The upcoming federal
budget gives the government a chance to prove to Canadians that
it is capable of acting in the best interest of the majority of
taxpayers and cut spending, priorize spending to do the right
thing for Canada.
Mr. Alex Shepherd (Durham, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I
listened with interest to my fellow colleague.
All of us are opposed to tax increases. In my lifetime I do not
remember anyone ever saying that they were in favour of tax
increases. I can go back 20 or 30 years, I do not remember
anybody saying that they liked the concept of tax increases.
I am surprised by some of the attitudes of the members of the
Reform Party toward changes in expenditures. For instance, I
heard the previous speaker talk in terms of any changes in
revenue that came through a redefinition of taxation
expenditures should somehow be turned around and given back.
In other words, it should not be used to reduce the deficit.
At the same time, the same people are telling us that we are
not moving fast enough on deficit reduction. I am getting mixed
messages. I do not quite understand what they are trying to say.
RRSPs are a good example. The previous government raised
RRSP exemption levels to $13,500, that is income levels for
individuals earning $75,000. A proposal that I have had is to
reduce that down to $9,000. With a $9,000 exemption that would
be somebody with a $50,000 income. The object of the exercise
would be that people earning over $50,000 surely can save for
their own retirement without getting assistance from the
taxpayers of Canada.
A second aspect of this also has to do with the foreign
component of registered retirement savings plans. Currently we
allow up to 20 per cent of RRSP funds to be held in foreign
denominations. Once again the question is why is it that the
Canadian taxpayer is allowing a tax deduction on their tax return
simply so people can invest in foreign countries? It seems to me
if people want to make the decision to invest in foreign countries
they can do so without the credit of the taxpayers of the rest of
Canada.
I am often concerned when I hear people talk about loopholes
and incentives.
(1225)
In my background as an accountant, today's incentives
become tomorrow's loopholes. The loopholes we are talking
about blocking today were probably yesterday's incentives.
The other aspect about no more taxes, of which I am a
believer, is the deficit. The reality is that a deficit is unpaid
taxes. In other words, we did not pay enough taxes and that is
how we created this deficit; or, as some my colleagues would
argue, we spent too much relative to our tax base. Be that as it
may, as of today the deficit represents taxes we have not paid.
The bottom line is how are we going to resolve those kinds of
problems?
I have taken the time to work on a private member's bill which
I hope to introduce this month that I call the taxpayers' bill of
rights. The bill basically focuses on government spending and
how government spending affects each and every individual. In
other words, every time the government announces a program it
should be visible and costed on a per taxpayer basis. It should
allow the individual taxpayer choices and rights.
Do they think a bill in that vein would be good for
accountability? Why do they feel expenditure reduction should
not be used in fighting the deficit?
Mr. Breitkreuz (Yellowhead): Madam Speaker, it will have
to be very brief. I believe the member used almost my entire five
minutes with some more Liberal rhetoric.
We believe in a zero tax increase. We believe money is much
better left in the hands of Canadian citizens than in the hands of
politicians. The whole problem is not increased taxes, it is the
money the government spends. It is definitely a spending
problem, not a revenue problem.
Mrs. Daphne Jennings (Mission-Coquitlam, Ref.):
Madam Speaker, I would not have thought it necessary to have
this debate today. After the October 1993 election I thought the
message would have sunk into whichever party formed the
government.
Canadians want decisive spending cuts, no net increases in
taxes and a smaller, less interfering central government. What
has happened? Since taking office the Liberal government
immediately inflated the size of the deficit so when it was
seemingly reduced it could pat itself on the back, saying job well
done.
By doing this Liberals avoided tough decisions. Then we had
the costly cancellation of the helicopter EH-101 purchase. Long
term, high tech jobs were lost and millions paid in cancellation
fees. The Pearson airport contract was cancelled. An airport
desperately in need of refurbishing is allowed to decay while the
9584
Liberal government fights it out with developers over the costs
of cancellation. Again, jobs are lost and taxpayers' money is to
be paid out with no gain whatsoever.
The infrastructure program begins. Billions of dollars
borrowed for infrastructure programs by communities that
needed jobs but not increased debt. We know that in a healthy
economy it is the business sector that creates jobs, real jobs, and
not the government through temporary government programs.
As the unemployment figures released last week indicate, the
jobs are not there anymore but the debt surely is and will be for
years to come.
Then in the 1994 budget it is handed down, the great wait until
next time budget. Canadians sat in anxious anticipation, hoping
at last a Liberal government would make tough decisions. Who
were they kidding? The joke was on the people of Canada. The
government they elected, this Liberal government, let them
down. Spending programs abound in last year's government's
budget.
It is hard to imagine a government elected to make tough
decisions using the old phrase that losing sports teams use, wait
until next year. This is next year and there is still no sign of any
willingness to take tough decisions. The government had a
chance but really side stepped it.
Canada was going to go through the most massive
restructuring of the social welfare system since it was put in
place. Studies began. The minister of human resources made
grand announcements. Policy and discussion booklets were
produced. Two sets of committee hearings were held. This
committee of the House of Commons travelled across the
country in both sets of hearings.
Four million was given to 159 special interest groups. The
people we should have heard from are regular, hard working
Canadians who regularly pay their taxes and receive no special
grants or privileges. However we heard from special interest
groups to ensure that the committee heard testimony. And to
what avail?
(1230)
The minister of human resources announced that the
government will have to deal with its budgetary problems before
it will be able to get on with reforms. To paraphrase and perhaps
combine a couple of old expressions, when the government's
fiscal chickens came home to roost, they could not because the
field was too full of social welfare sacred cows.
The Liberals side stepped yet another decision to revamp and
reshape our social system. It is hard to believe a government so
early in its mandate would admit to be fresh out of new ideas.
No one in Canada who has studied our social welfare system
believes it needs more money thrown at it. If the government
was not going to do anything, why did it spend all the money
studying reform? How much did this exercise cost: $10 million,
$20 million? Who knows, who cares? Obviously no one on the
government side.
We in the Reform Party care deeply. We care about the
country and we care about its people. As elected members to this
House we realize we owe the people of Canada a duty, a duty not
just to criticize but to present alternatives. We believe that the
country's financial situation must be addressed in a positive way
before the next election.
As a policy the Reform Party believes the solution to our
deficit problem must be found on the expenditure side rather
than on the revenue side. Presently the government has more
than sufficient tax income.
Canadians expect to pay taxes. Canadians expect the
government to spend our tax dollars wisely. When the
government mismanages our tax dollars as governments have
been doing since the 1960s, Canadians get angry. We cannot
blame our fellow Canadians for not wanting their hard earned
tax dollars to be wasted on grants, unnecessary byelections,
make work programs and government to government
international aid, among other things.
I recently heard a suggestion that the Liberals might bring in
temporary tax increases. Let us not forget another temporary tax
measure which was introduced many years ago. It is still with us
today. It is called income tax. This tax takes the biggest bite out
of our incomes. But it is not the GST, income tax or any other tax
that is the problem. It is mismanagement. The problem is
mismanagement of our tax dollars.
As Reformers are saying, Canadians fear that the Liberal
budget will be the worst of all worlds: spending cuts that are
insufficient to lead to a balanced budget and solve the problem,
combined with tax increases that reduce disposable income and
kill jobs.
As Reformers have said in the past, we believe the first
change should come with reform of the MP pension plan. We are
not talking about MPs' salaries, which from what I have seen
since I have been in Ottawa indicates that MPs work very hard to
earn their salaries. Cuts must also come in the institutions of
government; the office of the Governor General, the Senate, the
House of Commons, the Privy Council and the Prime Minister's
office.
We must look at excessive travel of senior officials and urge
the government to reduce the number of ministers of state and
associate ministers. Cut down the size of government. The
Reform plan in the end is to have a smaller, less intrusive and
more efficient federal government.
We can include the electoral boundaries reform. Cut
spending. We do not need 295 MPs in the House of Commons or
300 plus, as the government is suggesting. Each MP costs
Canadian taxpayers about $1 million. The country to the south
of us has 270 million people to our 27 million. They have
approximately 437 in government to our 295. Last week in
Washington I met
9585
with American congressmen, congresswomen and constituents
who told me their representation was very effective.
Reform is on record for looking at federal funding to
multiculturalism and the official languages program. These are
just some of the examples where Reform would cut.
We must protect law enforcement, health, education and our
environment. We believe we must bring forward alternatives so
Canadians can see there is another way other than the Liberal
way. We see a need for a fresh, new vision of social policy in the
next century, forwarded on the belief that the best guarantee
governments can provide of individual personal security is to
establish a framework of laws within which individuals can save
for or insure against each of the contingencies that life may
bring upon them.
We believe in five guiding principles to support our vision of
the future. First, build on the Canadian tradition of
self-reliance, recognizing the family as the primary caregiver in
society.
Second, empower communities and charitable organizations
to play an ever increasing rather than a diminishing role in social
security.
Third, provide temporary assistance to people who
experience short term misfortune while ensuring that long term
assistance is reserved for those who are generally incapable of
providing for themselves.
(1235 )
Fourth, where government must be involved in social service
delivery, entrust the resources and the responsibility to that
level of government which is closest to the people.
Fifth, ensure that we can pay for security measures without
borrowing more money.
We believe that security must be provided against these types
of problems. The first class of security need is for protection
against personal catastrophes, such as a medical emergency or
the death of a family's chief income earner.
The second class of security need consists of needs that will
arise reasonably far into the future but which are predictable.
Most people will have such needs at some point in the future.
One cannot insure against them but one can prepare for them.
Typical needs in this class are post-secondary education,
non-catastrophic health care, retirement income and periodic
unemployment.
The final class of security need is for intermediate help for
those who have not been able to provide for themselves. This is
the proper function of charity or, in the absence of it,
government transfers.
This is not the cruel and heartless vision of social reform that
is attributed to us by the media. It is a system designed to deliver
a sufficient level of income to ensure that nobody lives in
poverty. Public assistance is to be directed at those who for
reasons of physical disability or advanced age are incapable of
providing for themselves. At the other end of the scale no one
with enough to pay taxes would receive assistance and those
who receive assistance would pay no tax.
We must begin to rely on ourselves. We must rely on our
families. We can no longer ask the government to provide
personal security from the cradle to the grave.
These are some of the ways in which we can achieve a
government which is smaller but more effective; spending cuts
which eliminate programs that are no longer useful but retain
our much needed health care system and our criminal justice
system.
I hope the government is listening and will adopt these
measures in its upcoming budget.
Mr. Mike Scott (Skeena, Ref.): Madam Speaker, it gives me
great pleasure to rise in the House today to support my hon.
colleague's motion urging the government to deal with our
budget crisis through spending cuts rather than new tax
increases.
I cannot stress enough how important it is to approach
budgetary policy from the point of view that government in
Canada is too big. There is a very simple reason why
government spends too much. It tries to do too much. It tries to
do things that it either cannot do at all or that it can do but does
very badly.
I brought up this point in discussing Bill C-65. I said then, and
I say now, that unless the Liberal government understands where
the deficit problem is coming from, it will not be able to solve it.
I said that our spending problem comes from our big social
programs and that no solution which fails to target them can
allow us to deal with our spending problems.
I also said then, as I say now, that we should listen to the
Auditor General. We should make sure that when we devise a
program we understand clearly what it is supposed to achieve.
We should also make sure that we have a clear set of criteria to
measure whether or not it has succeeded. We should shut it down
if it is not succeeding and shows no signs of succeeding. That
applies to the question of how to cut spending. It also applies to
the question of whether to cut spending.
Our fundamental objective is to balance the budget. A
secondary objective is to balance it at a sufficiently low level. If
the government were to balance its books by spending and by
taking in taxes three-quarters of the GDP I would not be happy.
We should certainly consider whether any budget balancing
measures lead to a zero deficit at an acceptably low level of
overall spending and taxation. Our main objective is to balance
the budget.
9586
I know that the Liberals are still waving their little red book
and claiming that 3 per cent of GDP is a good deficit target.
It is not. It is painfully inadequate. Let us suppose that all we
are setting out to do is to reduce the deficit to 3 per cent of GDP,
to go over the cliff a little more slowly. How are we going to
do it? What will our program be? How will we tell if it is
working? What will we do if it is not?
There are three ways to try to control the deficit. The first one
is to raise taxes. The second one is to cut spending. The third one
is to fiddle the books. In my home province of British Columbia
they are getting pretty good at number three. I am not even going
to consider it. The only thing that I am going to say is that
leaving things like the Canada pension plan off budget is not a
good idea.
(1240)
Let us assume that the federal government's books get neither
better nor worse over the next few years. That leaves raising
taxes or cutting spending. I do not think there is any big mystery
about the appropriate yardstick for success or failure. Is the
deficit getting bigger, staying about the same or is it getting
smaller? By that standard, any reasonable person would
conclude that what we have done over the past decade has failed.
If members want a grim laugh go back and read some of the
speeches by one Brian Mulroney while campaigning for the
Prime Minister's job. Or go back and read the budgets of
Michael Wilson or Don Mazankowski. Heck, read the budgets
by the former Liberal finance minister, the Prime Minister. They
all preach about the dangers of deficits and debt.
It is absolutely amazing to see how many budgets are brought
into this House and prefaced with the remarks that the deficit
and the debt are the most primary concern of the government of
the day. They all promise to bring budgets under control and I
have no reason to think they were anything but sincere. Look at
the method they chose: constant tax increases. Apply the
yardstick. Did the deficit shrink appreciably? No, it did not.
George Orwell once said it is the first duty of every intelligent
person to state the obvious. I am about to state the obvious. Tax
increases have been tried as a deficit reduction measure for a
long time and they have failed. This is also true internationally.
It is time therefore for us to recognize the wisdom of an
observation by Nobel prize winning economist Milton
Friedman: ``Governments will spend whatever they can take in
plus whatever they can get away with''.
The record is clear. Tax increases do not solve budget
imbalances. Budget imbalances are caused by spending. They
are caused by programs whose appetite is far greater than the tax
system can deal with. No tax increases. Spending cuts.
The problem is on the spending side. That is where the ducks
are. As Ralph Klein from Alberta said: "If you want to go duck
hunting you have to hunt where the ducks are''.
Hon. Douglas Peters (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Madam Speaker, I would like to
note that I will be sharing my time with the member for
Carleton-Charlotte.
I am pleased to participate in this supply day debate. It allows
me to remind the House of a very important policy paper on the
government's economic strategy by the Minister of Finance
presented at the Standing Committee on Finance last fall.
I know that Reform has little time and less interest in any
prescription requiring more than a single syllable. Its formula
for government, for the economy and for the budget is simply
slash and burn. It has the same petulant one-syllable approach to
even boosting revenues by improving tax system fairness, that
is, no, no, no.
I regret sounding so sarcastic but frankly that is the only
reasonable response to a motion that sings a one-note song: cut
the deficit. It proves that the Reform, a Johnny one-note party
still cannot recognize the wider economic context that
governments and budgets must address.
The great political philosopher Edmund Burke said: ``The
essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity''. Deficit
reduction in a way that lays the foundation for deficit
elimination is essential. That is why the government has staked
out concrete targets for dramatic deficit cuts. We have made
clear that the ultimate goal is deficit elimination. Just reducing
or eliminating the deficit by itself will not sustain or secure the
type of country most Canadians want and expect. At a time of
accelerating technology and evolving skills, when almost one in
ten Canadian workers are still jobless, even a balanced budget
alone will not deliver the new opportunities they need.
(1245)
This is where our government differs so fundamentally from
the Reform opposition. We understand because a majority of
Canadians understand that Canada needs a disciplined strategy
for economic security and growth.
Under the previous government Canadians saw too often and
too much what happens when a government implements
spending cuts without clear guiding principles. It is like
building a house without a blueprint. It is costly in the long run
and then the roof falls in.
That is why our government has set out the framework for
economic policies we intend to build upon. The paper ``A New
Framework for Economic Policy'' is a clear statement of
objectives that will guide what the government will do and what
it will not do. The logic and approaches of the 1960s simply are
no
9587
longer good enough for a 21st century global arena. We cannot
afford them and we will not succeed with them.
Previous generations responded to the challenges of their eras
by building the physical and social infrastructures of Canada.
We too must create a new infrastructure for our time, the
infrastructure of ideas and innovation. That is the thrust of our
new framework paper. It proposes five key areas on which we
must focus.
The first is helping Canadians acquire the skills to get jobs, to
keep jobs and to find better jobs. The facts are clear. Jobs for
people with high school education or less are shrinking while
jobs for those with education beyond high school are growing.
In fact projections show that almost half the new jobs now being
created require more than 16 years of education and training
combined.
I should add that there is a particular element of this challenge
that engages small business. They do not have the resources of
large firms to bring employees up to speed with the new skills
that our information age increasingly demands. They depend on
a public education system that can do its job.
In terms of education the challenge in Canada is not money.
We spend more on education than just about anyone else. What
we need are better results. Individuals, employers and the
government must co-operate and share responsibility for
improving education and training.
The second part of our framework is encouraging Canadians
to adjust to change. Economic progress depends on a
willingness to embrace new opportunities. It is our view that
protecting and subsidizing business is almost always the wrong
way to go.
For that reason the government is going to change the entire
approach to subsidies. Equally we believe regional economic
assistance should focus on genuine opportunities such as
tourism that have great potential to be self-sustaining. Further,
we believe high payroll taxes are nothing more than a tax on
hiring. That is why we have taken steps to reduce UI premiums.
The third element of our framework is getting government
right. Our attitude here is straightforward. It is time to make
choices. We must eliminate or reduce lower priority activities
and target scarce resources on the highest priority programs.
That is one reason we are also trying to eliminate unnecessary
federal regulations that cost Canadian business tens of billions
of dollars every year.
Regulatory reform has the potential to increase productivity,
stimulate new investment and create a more cost efficient
government. We have already reviewed more than half of the
3,000 regulations on the books. We have eliminated
one-quarter, left another quarter in place, and the rest are being
revised or examined further.
Providing leadership in the economy is the fourth objective.
While the private sector creates jobs the government has a clear
role in fostering economic growth. In our knowledge based
economy success depends on skill and innovation. The
government can contribute to this dynamic process by gathering
and disseminating information and ideas about technology and
new markets. As well it can play an important role in bringing
business together, something that is critical in an economy
where new firms are small and specialized.
(1250)
One priority is to do more to harness science and technology
in order to improve productivity and growth. Government can
help by building better links among industry, universities and
government labs. It also has a particular role in making sure
small business benefits from the latest know-how, particularly
in the high technology sector.
Trade is another area where government involvement is
essential for success. Today more than ever Canada is an
exporting nation. It is vital that more companies become
exporters and that we look beyond our traditional markets to the
emerging economies of Asia, Latin America and eastern Europe.
Here the government can help by providing more information
and by ensuring that small businesses have access to export
financing.
The fifth and final objective is absolutely essential to all
others. We must create a healthy fiscal and monetary climate in
Canada. If we do not meet this fiscal challenge, as the finance
minister told the Standing Committee on Finance, we will fail at
everything else.
That is why we have staked out a rigid commitment to
bringing the deficit down to 3 per cent of the economy in three
years, effectively cutting it in half. That is why we have also
made it clear that this deficit target is a first step in meeting our
ultimate goal of eliminating the deficit completely.
It would be absurd to claim that a single paper is the answer to
curing Canada's future, but it is equally absurd to promote
deficit elimination as a cure-all of every Canadian challenge. To
me and I hope to all Canadians the evidence is clear. Our
government has a vision of the role for government in building a
more prosperous nation.
The opposition would better serve its mandate by providing
meaningful policy alternatives rather than simplistic motions
without scope, without depth and especially without heart.
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay East, Ref.): Madam Speaker, it
is interesting the secretary of state, being as it were second in
command just under the finance minister, delivered the speech
that he did this morning. I do not think he or perhaps the
government or perhaps the Liberal side understands that
Canadians are concerned about a further tax grab, about further
tax increases.
9588
While I respect the fact that the secretary of state gave us
a nicely balanced speech about economic objectives, fostering
economic growth and all these other things that are essential,
nonetheless I would point out to him that what is concerning
Canadians at this time, and I would suggest what is concerning
foreign investment or people who are buying marketable
securities offshore or outside the country, is that his
government just does not seem to understand. It is an
overexpenditure problem; it is not a taxation problem.
I am fully aware that my comment and my follow-up question
are not going to be directly on what he just spoke about, but I
suggest with the greatest respect that his speech did not have
anything to do with the topic that has been brought forward by
the opposition, the Reform Party in this instance.
I am sure that coming from the banking background and as an
economist he would be aware of the fact that while corporate
profits have dropped 10 per cent in the last 10 years corporate
taxes at all levels, including compliance costs, have increased
by 69 per cent. I therefore find it somewhat strange that he and
his government would be talking about a further confiscation of
the wealth or the ability of corporations to be able to fund
themselves.
I was listening to the chair of the finance committee talking
about the fact that there are corporations that because of fast
write-offs or other procedures involved in the current tax
system should be taxed. That is why the government is talking
about a wealth or a capital tax on larger corporations. This is
exactly what the Liberals are talking about.
Would the secretary of state be able to inform us whether he,
the finance minister and their colleagues are perhaps talking
about a cash flow tax? In other words we understand that we
have a wealth tax.
(1255)
Because a corporation is able to carry forward losses and
other legitimate things in the tax system it has a sufficient
amount of flow. The government will say: ``My goodness, here
is a couple of million dollars flowing along. Why don't we put
our ladle, our pail or our big scoop into this tax?''
Does the Liberal government not understand that individuals
and corporations are saying no tax increase?
Mr. Peters: Madam Speaker, I am delighted to reply to the
hon. member's question. Again we find the Reform Party is
suggesting new taxes. The only matter of taxation the finance
minister has mentioned is that we will continue to make the
Canadian tax system fairer.
The Reform Party keeps suggesting new taxes. Let me tell
Reform Party members that Canadians are not just concerned
with taxes. They are concerned with taxes; they are not just
concerned with taxes. They are also concerned with jobs. They
are concerned with education. They are concerned with crime in
the streets. I read my mail every day. They are concerned about
all these things.
The Reform Party is playing a Johnny one-note tune on
deficits and on taxes and is missing what Canadians really want.
Mr. Harold Culbert (Carleton-Charlotte, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I am pleased to join in the debate.
During one of the question and comment periods this morning
I mentioned that like many members on all sides of the House I
have had an opportunity to host public forums on issues such as
the debt and the deficit. We got input from people across our
constituencies on what their approach would be. That is part of
our responsibility. That is a part of our ongoing job.
Many people said to me that there had to be cuts on the
expenditure side, that the government had to do better, that we
had to eliminate waste wherever we find it or wherever possible,
and that we had to avoid duplication in efforts whether with
departments internationally or our provincial counterparts in
their respective departments.
The finance committee looked at those matters during its
review. The minister and his department have taken them into
consideration during the process of preparing for the budget. I
say to my colleagues across the way that many Canadians have
told us at these meetings that they want government to get it
right. That is exactly what we are attempting to do.
People lost faith in our predecessors. Goal after goal was set.
Was one ever met? I do not recall one that stands out in my mind
as being met.
The government set goals like one might in business. Any
good business person knows that challenges and goals must be
set for both the business and the staff. Goals are set that offer
challenge; the goals are achievable albeit difficult. That is
exactly what we have done as a government. We have set some
difficult goals.
(1300 )
I have to admit in many cases I have scratched my head and
asked how we are going to meet this, that it is going to be very
difficult. During the process both the finance minister and quite
obviously the Prime Minister have asked all departments, all
portfolios and all ministers to share in this challenge before us. I
am sure in many cases specific sums were expected to be cut
from the respective departments.
As everyone in this House knows, program review has been
taking place. That program review asked every department and
every portfolio to look at every line of every expenditure to
ensure that they were going to be able to justify it to you and me.
Ultimately that is where our responsibility lies. It lies not in the
9589
day to day operation but in the policy, the planning and the
review of the results. That is exactly what the Minister of
Finance will do when he brings down his budget.
As we mentioned earlier, this government did set a goal. We
took over in the 1993 fiscal year a deficit of some $42 billion
which had once again gone even further than the previous
administration had projected. We set a goal to bring that deficit
down this current fiscal year to $39.7 billion, next year to $32.7
billion, and the third year to $25 billion, thus meeting our
commitment of 3 per cent of gross domestic product.
Members would know that in the last couple of weeks the
Minister of Finance has stated publicly that not only will we
meet that goal this current fiscal year but we will exceed it. That
is great news for us. It is fantastic. That is what we should be
working toward and challenging ourselves toward. I know the
Minister of Finance is doing that and is impressing on the staff
of the department to ensure we do all possible to not only meet
the current year and subsequent year goals but to surpass them if
we possibly can.
During this whole process of reaching our goals we have
another goal. That goal is for growth and job creation in this
country. Of all the G-7 nations in the world, the economic
leaders of the world, in the 1994 calendar year this country was
number one. We were number one in the world in economic
increase and development.
That in itself is part of our challenge, the balancing part, to be
very gentle. The actions we take must be balanced to achieve our
goals in reducing our deficit, taking hold of our debt, bringing
home those offshore portions wherever possible but at the same
time doing it in a balanced fashion that will keep another
commitment of this government for economic development:
jobs and growth. We call it our growth and jobs agenda.
(1305 )
Members will notice that every piece of material which has
been brought forward by this government has had that as the
number one priority: jobs and growth. Growth economically for
our businesses. Jobs for our young people completing
community college and post-secondary education in
universities. It is so they will have the opportunity we and our
parents had to have a job, to have that self-discipline, to have
respect for themselves, to know that following their education
there is an opportunity in this country to go to work and to
provide for themselves and their subsequent families.
As a member of this government I am indeed proud of the
approach it and our finance minister have taken fiscally. There is
no question we want to see the major part of deficit reduction
done on the expense side. There is no question and the minister
has stated that time and time again.
As I mentioned before, a number of those loophole areas are
going to have to be filled. I pressured the minister, others did as
well. That will be seen by some people as tax increases. I see it
as being a fair and equitable tax system for all Canadians.
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I was
listening with great interest to the member's speech. He was
talking about the goals the government has set. I would like to
talk about those goals.
I wonder if the hon. member would agree with me that if we
aim low we just might be able to succeed sometimes, if to aim
low so we can succeed is not necessarily where the government
is coming from. I wonder why the Liberals do not realize that
you cannot get over a wide chasm in two jumps.
The situation is that with our constant overspending and our
constant deficit building we are taking the future from our
great-grandchildren who we do not know and we have not seen
yet. This is an intergenerational transfer of taxation. With the
spending we as Canadians under this Liberal government are
presently doing, we are handcuffing our descendants countless
years into the future with taxation. It is for money we are
spending today.
Specifically the government talks frequently about this 3 per
cent thing. The people of Canada should know that since the
government took over, the federal debt, not the deficit which is
the overspending but the federal debt, has increased $60 billion.
That is just since this government has taken over.
The government's target is to get to 25 per cent of gross
domestic product within four years. People like ourselves figure
four years times $25 billion is $100 billion. It will be
significantly more than $100 billion. Even if we stayed with
$100 billion additional debt, the interest charge on that
additional $100 billion that we are having our great, great,
great-grandchildren responsible for with their taxation, is $9
billion a year.
The federal transfers for post-secondary education are $2.6
billion. The federal transfers for health are $6.5 billion. In other
words for just health and post-secondary education, it is $9.1
billion. And this government with $100 billion more debt is
going to be encumbering our great, great-grandchildren with $9
billion more.
It is going to be a lot more than $100 billion, but let us take
that number. If the government in all of its wisdom is prepared to
go $100 billion more into debt, the interest charges will be at
least $9 billion. That then wipes out our ability to fund
post-secondary education or to make federal transfers to the
provinces in support of health care. Where in the world does the
hon. member expect to get that from, except the bogey man
which Canadians are concerned about because it is more of a tax
grab, more of this government in Canadians' wallets?
9590
(1310 )
Mr. Culbert: Mr. Speaker, relative to the points and concerns
made by my hon. colleague across the way, I should say first of
all that I am not sure how the Reform Party set its goals low as he
has suggested. However the Liberal way is to set goals that are a
challenge, yet goals that are achievable even though they may be
somewhat difficult to achieve. We as a Liberal government have
set those goals and we will achieve them, as everyone well
knows.
I agree with my hon. colleague across the way that no
question, when talking about compound interest, it is a
wonderful thing when you are receiving it or if you have dollars
to invest and can receive it. It multiplies day in and day out and
is a wonderful thing. He is absolutely right. It is a terrible thing
when it is the other way around and you are paying your debts.
Whether it be us in our private lives, or business, or certainly as
government, there is no question it is a terrible thing.
Those goals have to be set and we have to meet those goals and
those challenges each step of the way as we go along. In this case
we will meet our first goal of reaching 3 per cent of the gross
domestic product. Our next goal will be on a balanced budget.
Following that, we will break the back of this country's debt. We
will take hold of these finances for years and years to come.
Mr. Mike Scott (Skeena, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to
respond to the remarks made by my colleague across the way.
We hear from these Liberal members today about how
essential it is for government to be involved in the economy and
how if we can do things just a little better, if government can just
get it right, things will get better in Canada.
We hear about complexity and we hear about the wider
economic reality as if these were some buzz phrases that meant
that government has to stay involved in the economy. I would
suggest that we have had 25 or 30 years of government involved
in the economy, trying to direct the economy, trying to drive us
to where it would like us to be and it has failed miserably.
There is a model right now for government to emulate and that
is Mr. Klein's government in Alberta. Mr. Klein has done some
very courageous things starting with the elimination of the
MLA's pension plan and a reduction of the MLA's remuneration.
He has demonstrated leadership at the top.
Then he has gone on from there to make across the board cuts,
major cuts in his government's spending. The reality of that is
that Alberta is creating jobs. It is instilling investor confidence
and it is showing the people in Alberta that it is serious about
reducing its debt and its deficit.
Would the member across the way not agree that is the model
for this government to be following rather than to be following
the tired old ideas that have not worked and will continue not to
work if this government continues on its present course of
action?
Mr. Culbert: Mr. Speaker, first I should say that
government's involvement is certainly to set an economic
confidence in this country in which the business and industry
communities can build economically to create those jobs. That
is where the jobs come from. The member is right. They do not
come directly from government. They come from government
indirectly because government has to set that confidence, that
pace and that tone economically in the country for that to
happen. That is exactly what this government is doing.
[Translation]
Mr. Pierre Brien (Témiscamingue, BQ): Madam Speaker,
today we are discussing a motion by the Reform Party whose
purpose is, basically, to make the government reduce its
spending so as to improve the state of public finances. There is
nothing wrong with the principle as such. The motion also wants
the government to avoid raising taxes and to downsize
government. The Bloc Quebecois certainly has no trouble
accepting these three principles.
However, the position behind this motion is not necessarily
one we can embrace. Our position on the economy is certainly
not that of the Reform Party, certainly not the position of the
right, which says that economic growth depends largely on what
the wealthiest in our society contribute to the economy.
(1315)
This is often the group they try to defend, either by proposing
a single tax or other measures to avoid any form of progressive
taxation or redistribution. There are certainly major differences
in how the role of government is viewed with respect to
redistribution of income. In any case, since it came to power,
this government has done very little to improve public finances.
A few weeks from now, we will be told that by the end of the
fiscal year, we will have a deficit of about 38 or 39 billion
dollars, in addition to a debt of over $500 billion, accumulated
during the past twenty years. This is hardly a reason to celebrate.
However, I know some members will celebrate, because the
deficit will be one or two billion dollars less than the original
forecast. However, whether the deficit is on target is irrelevant.
We have to consider the facts.
The facts are that we will still have a very substantial deficit
of 37 or 38 billion dollars, as I said earlier, and perhaps even 39
billion, if the government tries to include some of next year's
9591
spending in this year's budget to reduce the pressure on the next
fiscal year. We must get back to basics. Forget about objectives.
What we want is results.
Since the government failed to make certain cuts last year,
this has put a lot of pressure on Canadian interest rates. Since
February, interest rates have gone up by about 300 base points.
Everyone who has to borrow money is feeling the impact on the
economy. The Minister of Finance likes to say that increases in
the interest rate are like increases in income tax. If he believes
what he says, why did he not do something earlier in the year,
instead of adding this pressure to the interest rates?
Of course, our friends like to say that the state of the economy
is a destabilizing factor. I, however, contend that the greatest
destabilizing factor is the state of public finances. Foreign
investors recognize this, and this is what they look at first.
There is also no vision for society. It is unfortunate to find
that, after a year and a half in office, the present government is
taking the same approach as its predecessor. According to this
approach, cuts are the only way to improve public finances-a
view shared by the Reform Party.
I can remember during the elections speeches about giving
priority to jobs and trying to generate growth as ways to improve
public finances. So much for those speeches. No vision of
society has been put forward in an effort to find a way to
revitalize the economy, to everyone's benefit.
You are aware that economic indicators measure growth with
traditional indicators such as production levels. We must not
forget, however, what we learned in the 1980s-that increased
does not necessarily mean increased employment.
The two are linked, of course. If there is an increase in total
production, or in the gross domestic product, the number of jobs
will certainly increase also, but these two trends are separate.
Production may increase significantly faster than the level of
employment.
The gross domestic product is therefore not the only yardstick
for the economy. We have to focus on the people who are
increasingly excluded from society, the unemployed living on
unemployment insurance or welfare or who have returned to
school because they cannot find a job. Many people are waiting
to enter the labour market. The present government has no
vision, in this regard.
I would like to speak a bit about the approach which consists
of saying that the deficit problem will be resolved by making
cuts across the board. We agree that certain cuts can readily be
made, for example in the government machine. Later on, I will
return to the Bloc Quebecois' suggestions which we have
repeated time and again.
We have a major difference of opinion with the Reform Party:
in our opinion, some expenditures are tax expenditures. We
must look beyond budget expenditures, transfers to individuals
and to the provinces.
(1320)
We should also look at whether they are tax expenditures, lost
revenues. We could get into a real philosophical debate on this
issue: Is it a tax hike? Is it a spending cut? It seems clear to us
that it is a question of spending.
It has always been difficult to discuss the issue of tax
expenditures in an effective way, even during the finance
committee's hearings, because the figures are derived from data
that is only partly revealed. Expenditures that the government
plans to make are revealed, but no roll-up of these expenditures
is ever given, even though that information is available.
Therefore, I want to talk about this right leaning philosophy
that only wants to see across-the-board cuts, blind
indiscriminate cuts, a philosophy that often ferments such ideas
as a single tax rate, the same rate for everyone. It tempts even
the people who would be affected the most. They say ``use one
tax rate''. Currently, we use a progressive tax rate system; the
higher the income, the higher the tax rate. Of course, the tax
system, however, sometimes reverses trends, but that is another
problem which can be looked at in a different way.
Therefore, the principle of redistribution, which is desirable
in society, would be severely compromised under a system with
one tax rate. I said to someone who was explaining the concept
to me that I would give the matter more thought if that person
could explain to me how income would be redistributed with just
one tax rate for everyone. As long as the proposal cannot be
linked with redistribution, how the state redistributes wealth,
the concept will not get any support from me.
I would now like to return to what can be expected in the next
budget and rumours on this subject. It is becoming clearer that
the government will increase its revenues in the next budget. An
increase in the surtax for individuals or in income tax rates,
traditional taxes or certain consumption taxes is planned, or
pension funds may even be hit. There is obviously a lot of money
there, and the government is looking for revenue. It is much
easier to get a quick revenue fix than to cut spending; it takes
more courage to cut spending, especially when friends are
among those affected. The Liberals have always had trouble
cutting their friends's spending so this may be very difficult to
do.
Now why does the government want to do that? Because of the
two additional years, and the Conservatives and Liberals are
equally at fault. For the past two years, there have been no major
changes in budget policy, and we have just had two consecutive
9592
deficits of $40 billion, record amounts in Canadian history. This
is a country that is supposed to have the best quality of life in the
world. This is the country they are trying to sell us, especially to
Quebecers. Perhaps we should check the size of the mortgage.
My point is that this government has only itself to blame,
because it failed to take action during the second year.
I will give an example of tax expenditures that were
introduced and then withdrawn, to show the lack of vision and
judgment we see so often in our tax system. That is why we
favour a genuine review of the tax system, not a quick fix to
please friends who contribute to the party coffers but something
that will reflect our social values, our principles and our
objectives. Look at the way the government treats capital gains,
for instance.
What was the procedure in recent years? First, the
government introduced the principle of allowing a $500,000
exemption; the first $500,000 of capital gains were not taxable.
After a while, the exemption was reduced to $100,000. Once
taxpayers in the highest bracket had taken advantage of this
exemption-not everyone can declare a capital gain of
$500,000-the government said: ``Well, this is costing the
government a pretty penny. We will reduce the exemption to
$100,000'', and so they did. Now that the others had managed to
take advantage of this exemption, they said: ``Well, this might
be too costly for the government after all, so let us cut the
exemption to zero'', which they did.
If it does not make sense to treat capital gains differently
today, why did they do it in the past? How much money did the
government lose in the process? How much did it have to borrow
to compensate? How much did it cost society? Now, they claim
social programs are too expensive, that they are putting us into
debt, and the government has all kinds of names for those
people.
Actually, if we look at the operating budget, although it does
show a deficit, it is practically negligible, which means that if
we had not accumulated all this debt over the years, we would
not be having this discussion today.
What caused these problems? Is it our social programs? I am
not so sure.
(1325)
This certainly requires some adjustment and a serious look. I
come back to the approach advocating only cuts and not fiscal
spending. What does this mean? Forty billion dollars spread
among 20 million taxpayers. That means about $2,000 per
person. We resolve the deficit problem by cutting $2,000 per
individual, cuts in expenditures related to individuals.
Can everyone handle $2,000 in cuts? We here in this House
can do it easily, with no problem. However, what about people
on social assistance, single parent families and older people?
Can they handle a $2,000 cut per person? Can they really? It is
not a sure thing.
This is why we need to have another way of looking at the
approach to public finances as well. There has to be a way to put
a stop to the present inefficiencies and straighten out the job
market with different and new ideas. We could use our
imaginations, we could be creative. There is no end to
technological innovation these days. When it comes to public
finances, we are stuck for ideas. We want to copy other formulae
and other approaches.
We hear more and more talk about New Zealand in Canada
these days. People are trying to convince us that we will share
the same fate. Why do we not try a different formula? Why not
do things differently?
Over the next year, debate will be vigorous, because two
visions of society are on a collision course, particularly in
Quebec with the discussions on the referendum. I hope there are
Canadians who also share a different vision from what we are
hearing conveyed at present.
I would like to speak about reviewing the taxation system in
connection with current statistics on income. Sixty per cent of
people, 60 per cent of the population, have incomes of $25,000
or less. Returning to my earlier idea of cutting expenditures by
$2,000, for people with a $25,000 income, that is going to hurt.
We must target the cuts where the money is and where it will hurt
much less.
Of course, I mentioned redistribution. Also, when we put
forward budget policies, specific taxation policies, we must
evaluate them before developing them, while they are being
developed and after they have been developed. Given the
veritable army of civil servants, this could be done and it would
be a more productive use of their time. Perhaps cutting 45,000
employees would not be contemplated if this type of useful
analysis were conducted. It is certainly possible to re-think the
work of the public service in regards to such an approach.
I took part in prebudget consultations. I must say that I was
rather disappointed. Earlier, I heard a Liberal member say that
all departmental programs were undergoing a review. It is a
shame that, in politics, we lack the courage to lay working
hypotheses out on the table when people are being consulted.
These public consultations were very difficult because the
discussion became almost philosophical at one point. It was
hard to say that there was nothing concrete, only partial
information. It was difficult for people to judge, even for
members of the committee.
If that review had been conducted a little quicker, put out on
the table to be debated, but it was not, and the government does
not want to be transparent, it wants to give itself as much leeway
9593
as possible. It does not want to resolve the public finances issue
effectively, publicly. Never. This will be done in the backrooms.
Therefore, in my opinion, the exercise will be relatively
ineffective. Anyway, most of the report was written by the
Department of Finance, which does not want to be affected by
the recommendations, so it is making sure it has some leeway.
I would like to use the remaining three or four minutes to talk
about the rumour going around regarding a form of flexible
federalism which will be introduced in the next budget by
decentralizing some powers. What a laugh. The Axworthy
reforms were strongly contested and implementing his reforms
is proving very difficult; the proposal is obviously lacking
vision; people are not rallying around it, they are divided on the
issue.
The government had to put these reforms on the back burner
because of the referendum campaign. But the underlying idea
was to cut social program spending. How can this be done now,
and in a more positive way? That must be the challenge that
Cabinet is facing now, and a decision on the issue has probably
already been reached, since the budget has to go to the printer
any day now.
(1330)
Therefore, it is probably already a done deal and the Minister
of Finance is probably now in the process of announcing to his
provincial counterparts how he intends to reduce the amount of
money they receive, and trying to have them believe that he is
telling them good news.
What the government is essentially trying to do is to regroup
certain transfer payments. Education, health and Canada
Assistance Plan transfer payments will be grouped together and
added up. What the government will be doing is an addition of
sorts. The government will add up the amounts and say to
Quebec or another province: ``This was what you received in the
past, and now we will give it to you in one block payment.
However, you will get a lot less, because we have to improve
public finances. The rest is up to you. You must decide where to
cut, make unpopular choices, tell students their tuition fees will
go up. You will bear the responsibility». That is essentially the
message they want to convey, while trying to pass it off as
decentralized federalism.
Will they cut the workforce which administers these programs
here? I doubt it. Will they abolish national standards if they stop
contributing financially? If they no longer make a financial
contribution, will they forget about national standards? On what
logical basis would we maintain national standards, although we
know full well that the Liberal Party has this vision of national
standards, centralized here and equal across the country, a single
country, a single nation in their opinion?
It would be very surprising for them to really decentralize, but
they try to convince people that this is flexible federalism. I said
yesterday, and I still think today, that this type of federalism is
so flexible that we are broke.
In conclusion, I will say a word about transfer payments to the
provinces. If I remember correctly, transfer payments to the
provinces have been cut by $48 billion since 1982, including
$12 billion for Quebec alone, but that did not improve the
government's financial situation. So we must not fall into the
trap of thinking that this will do much to improve government
finances. First of all, it is shifting the burden to the provinces.
This will be hard on several provinces whose credit ratings are
substantially lower than that of the federal government. The
federal government's financial situation is worse, except that it
is easy for them to generate revenue by collecting more taxes,
but in theory only because people would not stand for it in
practice.
This did not put government finances on a healthier footing
and it is not a good approach. We must also look at job creation,
an issue on which the government is very silent. It lacks a vision.
In summary, yes to selective cutbacks, first in the administrative
machinery, at the Department of National Defence. We must
also collect unpaid taxes. We can achieve a real reduction in
overlap, which provides much more effective ways to create a
better climate and improve the economic situation. However, I
doubt very much that this is the approach contemplated by the
government and that concerns me a great deal. In any case,
people will have to make choices soon and we will see which
vision of society they prefer, especially in Quebec.
Mr. Nick Discepola (Vaudreuil, Lib.): Madam Speaker, it
was with considerable interest that I listened to and participated
in the debate this morning. I listened closely to the speeches by
the member for Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot and my colleague
from Témiscamingue, for whom I have a great deal of respect. I
do not always agree with them and I would even say that I am
almost in complete disagreement with their option, but I do
agree with one point that both members raised this morning, in
this House.
The member for Témiscamingue has just concluded with the
remark that flexible federalism, or a flexible status quo, if I may
so describe it, is the cause of the problem we are now facing
daily in Canada. In this regard, I am in complete agreement with
him. It is because of the debt load that has plagued the country
for years now.
I also agree with another of their observations, which is that
the debt load and particularly the deficit we have had for a
number of years are not the result of social programs.
(1335)
There are two factors, first of all the debt load, which is very
high, and the political uncertainty, which has resulted in an
incredible jump in interest rates.
9594
As the member has already pointed out, since the report was
tabled in December there has been an increase of 300 base
points, or 3 per cent. I would remind this House that an increase
of 1 per cent represents an additional burden of 1.7 billion
dollars. This is why, with the budget soon to be tabled, we are 12
to 14 billion dollars short of our objective to reduce the deficit to
3 per cent of the gross domestic product.
I would like to put a question to my honourable colleague,
who said that our problem is one of the main reasons why their
future is brighter in an independent Quebec. I cannot believe
that an independent Quebec will be in a better position to offer
the services that taxpayers now receive.
Take the debt, for example. It is a very good example. The
member for Saint-Hyacinthe told us himself this morning that
he was prepared to absorb 25 per cent of the debt. Some
economists say that this additional burden would drive the debt
of an independent Quebec up to 215 billion dollars. That would
be 123 per cent of its gross domestic product. There is no way
that an independent Quebec can offer the same services that
taxpayers are receiving today.
Could the member explain, for the benefit of all those who
will soon have to make a decision, how he expects to offer the
same services in an independent Quebec without extensive cuts,
when the debt burden is so heavy and there is the risk of a
premium on interest rates that would add to the load?
Mr. Brien: Madam Speaker, I will be pleased to answer my
colleague who, I hope, will be living in that Quebec with us too.
By then, I also hope we will be able to convince him because he
seems to show a certain interest in that new Quebec.
First of all, I would like to make a few corrections in what he
said about the causes of economic uncertainty. As a primary
factor, and I hope this is an error, he cited the political situation
as a cause of instability over the last year. May I remind him that
the greatest instability in interest rates, when they increased the
most, in April and May, that was in reaction to the federal budget
when the stock markets recognized that public finance had no
means to correct the situation. If he has stock market
investments, he will be able to check as stock market
performance and interest rates are very often at variance.
The federal budget and overall indebtedness are the first
factor. Even if some people mention the uncertainty associated
with a sovereign Quebec, this is not because of the political
regime or because they have concerns about public finances in a
sovereign Quebec in view of the present high Canadian deficit.
They themselves implicitly admit that it is the size of the
Canadian deficit which causes uncertainty. This has nothing to
do with politics. A sovereign Quebec with viable public finances
would be of no concern whatsoever to financial markets.
He also stated that a sovereign Quebec would be responsible
for 25 per cent of the debt and that my colleague had mentioned
that this morning. He probably remembered part of what my
colleague said. The latter probably said that this is what the
Liberal and federalists would want. If I may give an example,
the Bélanger-Campeau commission which examined this
subject indicated that we de not share only one side of the
balance sheet, we share the assets and the debt, both sides.
(1340)
When we add this all up and look at it from an assets
standpoint, we arrive at a figure of 18.5 per cent. Since we are
contributing 23 per cent of federal government revenues, and
taking on 18.5 per cent of the debt, this means a significant gain
on top of savings in overlap. There will no longer be two
departments of revenue, two departments of the environment,
two departments of whatever. I could go on a long time. This
will eliminate problems for business, which has to meet the
different environmental standards of Ottawa and Quebec City,
complete tonnes of forms, GST reports, QST reports. Our
business people will use this time to concentrate on what they do
best: improve the economy. This will be good for Quebec and
good for Canada. I hope Canada's economy will be as strong as it
can be, because Canada will be our principal trading partner.
I have no concerns about the viability of a sovereign Quebec. I
am perhaps a bit more concerned, sincerely, about the viability
of a Canada without Quebec, since it will have to redefine itself,
and the process has not yet begun. It will be hard to adjust
quickly.
Things are happening in Quebec. A lot of people are taking
part in the regional commissions. They are expressing their
ideas. They are describing their vision of Quebec in the future.
And as I said, it is completely different from what I hear people
talking about here. There, they are talking about equity,
redistribution and social justice. Here, people are talking about
reforms to social programs that involve cuts affecting the
disadvantaged in order to improve public finances.
There are other ways to improve public finances, and I think
the approach of a sovereign Quebec will show the way, and we
can become an international example on how to turn public
finances around and achieve sovereignty democratically.
Quebec knowledge and know-how will become an international
export.
[English]
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Vegreville, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I
cannot believe what I am hearing here today from this member
9595
of the Bloc. I think it is time he became accountable to this
House, to the people in his constituency and to the people across
the country because he is not being accountable.
This member has said that spending on social programs has
not played a part and has not been the reason that we have a
deficit in this country. I would like him to answer some very
direct questions.
Total federal spending was about $163 billion last year. About
$40 billion of that was interest payments on the debt. You are not
going to make interest payments on the debt? About $80 billion
was in the area of social program spending. About $43 billion
was for all other government spending, including the cost of
government, defence, Indian affairs and so.
Reform put out a detailed plan to cut $10 billion from that $43
billion and presented it to the finance minister and to the finance
committee. I never heard members of the Bloc saying that they
would cut more from that area. They complained they would not
make the cuts that Reform has proposed to make out of that area.
That means the Bloc is prepared to cut more out of this $80
billion in social program spending because there is no other
place to make the cuts. That is reality.
I would like this member to start talking about reality. I want
to ask him directly how he would propose to balance the budget
using some fact without making cuts in the area of social
program spending. I would like him to answer this in a way that
will be believable to the people in his constituency and across
the country.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu): You have barely 30
seconds left.
Mr. Brien: I will be quick, Madam Speaker, and will ask my
colleague to reread my speech, which he probably did not
understand, because it was in French. Let him reread its
translation.
I can see why someone who can only envision resolving the
public finances issue through social spending cuts would be
frustrated to see other people find other ways of resolving it.
They know very well how hard a time they are having with it.
Their ideas are not being accepted in Quebec and that probably
frustrates them all the more.
It would be my pleasure to send him a copy of the finance
committee's report, which contains the Bloc Quebecois'
proposed solution to the public finances problem. I will tell him
once again that it was certainly not the most needy who got us
into our current debt situation. That is certainly not the case.
Look at the past to see the reasons for the current debt level.
[English]
Hon. Roger Simmons (Burin-St. George's, Lib.): Madam
Speaker-
(1345)
The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu): I am sorry to interrupt.
May I ask the hon. whether you are taking 20 minutes or
splitting your time?
Mr. Simmons: The former. I intend to take most of the time
allotted because it is an issue raised by my good friend from
Capilano-Howe Sound, a gentleman who brings great
credentials to the House and to the debate. However, he ought to
use more of those credentials in formulating his motion but I
will come to that a little later because the effort allowing us to
debate this issue is applauded. For that I applaud my friend from
Capilano-Howe Sound.
I am pleased to have the opportunity to participate in the
debate because the motion does have its merits. I am confident
that the merits of the motion will be addressed in the budget
which is upcoming.
Unfortunately, however, I have to say to him that the motion is
also a bit tainted in several areas by a bit of simplistic thinking. I
would have expected something different from him. It is tainted
by a search for panaceas that if we do this and this, all of our
problems will go away. I do not think he believes that.
Let me emphasize that the government knows full well that
Canadians believe taxes are already too high. We agree with
them on that. We would get a certain impression if we saw some
people trying to start a tax revolt or in Mackenzie King's famous
statement: ``There go my troops. I must rush out to lead them''. I
am not sure which it is, whether they want to start the revolt, join
the revolt or what. It is either naive or treacherous as the case
may be but you decide, Madam Speaker.
Our priority objectives as a government are to stimulate
economic growth while putting in place some real fiscal
discipline. It is this double barrelled thrust that will ultimately
allow us to reduce taxes in the years to come.
Let us remember that the tax and deficit relationship is a two
way street. Every dollar of deficit borrowing we accept today
will lead to higher taxes tomorrow. Every dollar we can trim
from the deficit is a step on the road to keeping the tax burden
down.
That is why the government's 1994 budget was in many ways
a tax reform and a tax reduction budget. It included measures to
eliminate loopholes and to increase tax system fairness and
equity. It also committed to direct action to bring down
unemployment insurance premiums, a payroll tax that acts as a
real barrier to new job creation.
It was also a tax reduction budget because of the firm
commitment made by the Minister of Finance to cut the deficit
to 3 per cent of the economy in three years. Again, let me make
this central point. Fiscal discipline is the key to long term tax
9596
reduction in two ways. Obviously the less we have to borrow,
the less we have to tax to repay the loan and its interest.
There is another important dimension to this process.
Controlling government's appetite for debt is our fundamental
tool for getting interest rates back down. Lower interest rates
mean lower carrying costs on our $500 billion debt. Again that
means fewer tax dollars that we need to spend.
I understand the tax fatigue that so many Canadians feel. I can
appreciate that some may be cynical about the possibility of
measures that add to tax revenues today in order to let us cut
taxes in future.
That is why the 1994 budget undertook a program of net
spending reduction over three years that is the most significant
of any budget in a decade. Over 80 per cent of the net fiscal
improvement delivered by the 1994 budget over three years
came from spending cuts.
In other words, there was $5 in spending cuts for every dollar
of new revenue increase. Obviously I am not in a position to talk
about the measures that will be set out in the forthcoming
budget, but the Minister of Finance has already made it clear
that he will rely overwhelmingly on spending cuts to achieve his
fiscal targets.
(1350 )
Lower taxes are important and this government is committed
to working toward that. In the process we cannot ignore the
facts. The views expressed by the opposition on the issue of
taxation appear to be partly driven by a belief that Canadians
bear one of the highest tax burdens in the world, but there is
more political grandstanding than truth in that particular
perception.
The Canadian tax foundation, a highly respected non-profit,
non-partisan research organization, has recently made this
clear. Among the 24 members of the OECD, an organization that
includes most of the world's advanced industrial economies,
Canada ranks 14th in total tax burden. That represents 36.5 per
cent of our gross domestic product compared with the OECD
average of 38.8 per cent.
I say to my friend from Wild Rose, if he heard the first part of
my speech, yes it is a matter of concern. If the hon. member is
going to vent his concern based on facts rather than fantasies he
should first get at the facts. Among the 24 countries we are 14th
in total tax burden.
Mr. Abbott: Who do we compete with? The U.S. is 29 per
cent.
Mr. Simmons: Madam Speaker, they have to be given an
opportunity to vent in a way they never can in caucus. We might
as well let them do it here.
I would never dare be smug about Canada's tax burden. It
should be clear by now that I am not endorsing high taxes. We
have to face reality squarely which I believe supporters of this
motion are failing to do.
When they make comparisons of Canada's tax burden it is
typically vis-à-vis the United States. As much as I want lower
taxes I have to point out that there are some flaws in that
particular comparison with the United States. Contrary to what
some hon. members would have us believe, lower taxes in the
U.S. do not come without a cost, a financial cost and a human
cost.
Take the example of medicare. Medical insurance represents a
very substantial cost for millions of Americans and their
employers. For the tens of millions without insurance a serious
illness can spell personal and financial ruin. If members want to
make the comparison between Canadians and Americans, what
they ought to do in fairness is either when they are making
comparisons deduct the taxes in respect of which we pay for
medicare or alternately when they look at the American tax total
add in the medical care costs which are hidden in the sense that
they are not tax dollars, they are funded elsewhere but represent
a cost on the pocket nevertheless.
They are comparing apples and oranges. Either compare the
American and Canadian system with medicare written in or with
medicare written out. They will find that they do not have such a
tax holiday as my good friend would like to suggest.
The point I am making is twofold. First, we have to avoid
making comparisons that are simplistic and specious and I
would go so far as to say dishonest because they compare apples
and oranges. Second, we have to realize that while the
opposition's position on taxes sounds a lot like a call for
motherhood, it is about a lot more than taxes. It is about the kind
of government, the kind of society that we want in Canada.
I can tell the House how to reduce taxes, bring them way
down. Sock it to all the poor people, sock it to all the
disadvantaged, do away with our medicare system and so on.
There is a way to get ever lower taxes. Low taxation, small
government versus big government are not objectives in
themselves. None of these is an objective in itself. What they do
for society ought to be the objective, what they accomplish.
If we are going to go to the extreme of having small
government for the sake of small government, I can tell the
House how we can make it really small. Let us have no
government at all, none.
I take it you have all written in to forfeit your pensions.
9597
(1355 )
The Minister of Finance has said very clearly that government
cannot and should not do everything. We too want-
An hon. member: He does not do anything.
An hon. member: They do nothing except spend money.
Mr. Simmons: Can I get that in writing? He says the
government does not do anything. He could have fooled me
when I heard his leader yesterday in the House of Commons. I
thought he was saying we are doing all kinds of terrible things.
Get together, guys. I do not want a fight, especially on
Valentine's Day. Let us not have a fight among the kissing
cousins in the same caucus. He says we do nothing and the other
member says we do a lot. Which is it?
Mr. Abbott: A lot of nothing.
Mr. Simmons: The hon. member needs a new writer.
The government was elected to bring the people of Canada
leaner, smarter and more efficient government. Even my friend
from Elk Island believes that. We were not mandated to wholly
eviscerate government.
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West): What does that mean?
Mr. Simmons: As soon as I find out, I will let the member
know.
We were not elected to eviscerate, to cut out the you know
what of government without regard to the important job it must
and can fulfil both today and in the longer term.
The difficulty if we operate from the premise that we do not
need a government, as this crowd obviously does, is we have
difficulty seeing the wisdom in anything the government does. I
happen to believe we need some government.
Mr. Abbott: Some.
Mr. Simmons: Yes, some government and some good
government. I say to my friend that we not only have some
government, we have good government. The program review we
are undertaking is one of the ways in which the government is
bringing about smaller, efficient, effective government.
In the last budget the government launched a review of each
and every program. Departments were asked to justify programs
and activities on the basis of several tests.
The Speaker: It being 2 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order
30(5), the House will now proceed to Statements by Members,
pursuant to Standing Order 31.
9597
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[
English]
Mr. Geoff Regan (Halifax West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, today in
my riding of Halifax West many volunteers are out doing
fundraising efforts for TOUGHLOVE Canada, a non-profit
organization that counsels families in the use of non-violent
discipline to resolve behavioural problems with troubled
teenagers.
Many doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, parents, teachers
and police in my riding have attested to the success of this
program in dealing with these troubled teenagers. They have
used these methods to change the behaviour of these troubled
teenagers and create happier, healthier families.
Halifax West is the home of the national headquarters of
TOUGHLOVE Canada. I want to wish these volunteers well in
their worthwhile efforts.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand (Québec-Est, BQ): ``What a
victory'', Mr. Speaker. ``What a victory!'' These were the words
of Lucienne Robillard, a former minister in the Bourassa
government, on being elected as member for
Saint-Henri-Westmount in a by-election in which only 30 per
cent of registered voters turned out. What a victory indeed.
It reflects little glory on Mrs. Robillard, who systematically
refused to take part in any debate during the campaign. For her,
the by-election was a mere formality, somewhat like being
appointed to the Senate by the Prime Minister. Let us hope she
knows which door is which when she comes to Ottawa.
She will have to explain statements she made earlier as the
Quebec minister for health and education, when she fought
against federal interference in these sectors. Does she no longer
stand by these statements, which are at odds with the present
federal government's approach to social program reform?
* * *
[
English]
Mrs. Daphne Jennings (Mission-Coquitlam, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I monitored the work of the Senate committee which
studied deposit insurance in the collapse of Confederation Life.
In commenting on the white paper tabled on February 9 by the
Secretary of State for International Financial Institutions, I
9598
believe the secretary of state missed a great opportunity by not
recommending some minor form of co-insurance in relation to
deposit insurance.
It is vital that discipline be brought to Canada's financial
institutions, but discipline must start with the consumer. If the
minister had seized this opportunity, then discipline would
begin with the consumer and flow through to the institution
itself.
In relation to the changes suggested for life insurance
companies I hope those who comment on this paper will ask this
fundamental question: If the changes suggested were in place in
1990 would Confederation Life have gone bankrupt? It is
against this question that the success or failure of these
recommendations must be measured.
* * *
Mr. John Murphy (Annapolis Valley-Hants, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, tomorrow, February 15, represents the 30th
anniversary of Canada's national flag. It is with a great sense of
pride that I rise to pay tribute to this momentous day.
Since its inception in 1965 the red maple leaf has become a
familiar sight both here and around the world. Whether
emblazoned on the shoulders of our peacekeepers, proudly
represented by our athletes, or worn by our children, Canada's
flag is the defining symbol for the spirit of our people. It has
come to represent a united, proud and confident nation. For
people all over the world the maple leaf is regarded as a symbol
of peace and compassion. It represents tolerance and hope.
On this special anniversary I urge all members of Parliament
and in particular our friends in the Bloc Quebecois to reflect on
what it means to be a Canadian.
* * *
Mr. Gurbax Singh Malhi (Bramalea-Gore-Malton,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, salaries as high as $250,000 for a university
professor or $400,000 for a hospital president are reported in an
article in the Sunday Toronto
Star.
Taxpayers are also footing the bill for subsidized housing,
company cars and undisclosed travel and expense accounts, all
without the scrutiny of public accounting.
This situation must change. As the federal government
provides a large proportion of funds to the provinces for
secondary education and health care, we must ensure that
accountability is made a matter of public knowledge.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Don Valley North, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to congratulate Mr. Jim Coombs, who is a
member of my riding of Don Valley North, and the board of
directors of Eva's Place, North York's first emergency shelter
for youth.
It is most encouraging that Canadians understand and
appreciate the role which young people play in our society.
The government has been addressing the needs of young
Canadians, those often referred to as generation x. In September
1993 there were about 420,000 unemployed young people in
Canada. Since the government took office the number of
unemployed youth has been reduced by 60,000. The government
is committed to creating more jobs for youth and bringing more
youth back into the economy.
We must ensure that our young people have the best possible
opportunities to lead productive and self-sufficient lives
because they are the future of our country.
Eva's Place is a positive step toward addressing the needs and
concerns of homeless, abused and often alienated youth. Once
again I applaud the board of directors and urge the government
to take notice of their achievements.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Pierre Brien (Témiscamingue, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday the voters of Brome-Missisquoi exercised their
democratic right. For Bloc Quebecois militants, the result is
much less disappointing than our political adversaries would
like to think. Let it not be forgotten that in the vote on the
Charlottetown accord, Brome-Missisquoi was one of the few
ridings to vote in favour.
Yesterday the Bloc took 44.5 per cent of the vote, an increase
of almost 4 per cent since the general election in October 1993.
The Bloc and its sovereignist option have gained in
popularity. In the riding of Brome-Missisquoi, the real loser
was the leader of the Conservative Party, with only 3 per cent of
the vote.
* * *
(1405)
[English]
Mr. Randy White (Fraser Valley West, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
want Canadians to know that Petro-Canada has altered the lives
9599
of seven-year old Laura Curtis and her parents forever, through
an environmental disaster in Fredericton, New Brunswick.
I want Canadians to know that Petro-Canada has wrongly
altered the lives of Roger and Marlene Chapates forever through
a similar environmental disaster in Jedore, Nova Scotia.
I want Canadians to know that Petro-Canada is abusing its
power with many dealers, including Tom Daly of Saint John,
New Brunswick and Barry Deacon of Kamloops, British
Columbia.
I want Canadians to know that the Liberals are aware of these
very serious problems but do nothing.
Most importantly, I want Petro-Canada to know that we want
a judicial inquiry into its operations. After the next election our
government will hold no shares in this company which states it
is committed to Canadians.
* * *
Hon. Audrey McLaughlin (Yukon, NDP): Mr. Speaker, on
February 14, 1973, the late Elijah Harper came to Ottawa to
present the first Yukon land claims agreement.
I am pleased that 22 years later, through the efforts of many
aboriginal people from the Yukon, from successive
governments of different political parties, today we see the
proclamation of the Yukon land claims self-government and
surface rights legislation.
This is an historic day for all Yukoners. They will benefit
from the stability that it gives to our territory and from the
respect and dignity it gives First Nations within our territory.
Also it has implications for the rest of Canada and for the unity
debate that we are once again entering into.
With the Yukon land claims proclamation we see that we can
respect other cultures, languages, historical traditions and
governments and do it under the flag of Canada.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Ronald J. Duhamel (St. Boniface, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
tomorrow is the 30th anniversary of the Canadian flag, a flag
which commands respect around the world for what it
represents: a wealthy and tolerant country that is open to others.
[English]
By celebrating the 30th anniversary we acknowledge the
richness of our country and of its people. We recognize what we
have been as a country, what we are today as a nation and what
we can become by working together to improve the quality of
life of all citizens, particularly those who have less.
Tomorrow Canadians everywhere from coast to coast to coast
will raise their flag with immense pride.
* * *
Mrs. Eleni Bakopanos (Saint-Denis, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
during the recess I and other parliamentarians had the
opportunity to visit the Republic of Cyprus as members of the
Canada-Cyprus Parliamentary Committee.
For years I had read and spoken about the Cyprus issue.
However, I could never have imagined feeling the way I did that
day as I looked on to the ghost town of Famagusta, occupied by
Turkish troops since the invasion of the island in 1974, more
than 20 years ago.
To this day there are still 1,619 missing persons, 200,000
displaced people. Religious and archaeological sites continue to
be desecrated.
[Translation]
As members of Parliament in a country that has always
defended human rights, we have a duty to rise against any
violation of these rights. Furthermore, Canada must make every
effort to convince our southern neighbours and the international
community that it is important to find a fair and viable solution
to the Cyprus problem.
[English]
It is my hope that I can return to Cyprus one day and see a
reunited Cyprus and visit Famagusta and Kirinia, admire the
view from the Pendahtila mountains and taste the fresh oranges
from the orange groves of Morphou.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it
gives me great pleasure as president of the Liberal caucus of
Eastern Ontario to welcome our new colleague, the hon. member
for Ottawa-Vanier. Even though he has not yet been sworn in as
a member of Parliament, Mr. Bélanger attended our caucus
meeting at 7.45 this morning.
[English]
Our new colleague brings a great deal of valuable business
and political experience to Parliament. He has worked on the
Hill. He knows Ottawa and the national capital region well.
It must be rare for a new MP to attend an official meeting
before breakfast on the morning after a tough election
campaign.
9600
(1410)
Mr. Bélanger's willingness to serve augers well for the future
of this House. The positive results of all last evening's
byelections auger well for the future of Canada.
Bienvenue and welcome to the new member for
Ottawa-Vanier, Mauril Bélanger.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, today,
many representatives of national cultural institutions and arts
organizations are participating in a cultural sector summit to
discuss the future of the artistic community.
In the meantime, the federal government seeks to help spread
Canadian culture through its foreign policy. How can it make
such a claim when, at the national level, it is slashing the arts
and culture budgets, in particular at Telefilm and the CBC?
This government even has the nerve to undertake phoney,
improvised and botched consultations through the Canada
Council to ask artists where it should make further cuts.
The heritage minister's complicity speaks volumes about this
government's respect for culture and the artistic community.
* * *
[
English]
Mr. Ed Harper (Simcoe Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I had
the privilege of attending and speaking at a tax rally alert last
night in St. Catharines sponsored by the Canadian Taxpayers
Federation.
The event drew an overflow crowd of some 800 concerned
taxpayers with a strong message for the finance minister: ``No
new or increased taxes''. Several of those in attendance spoke
about where they felt spending cuts could be made and how
important it was for the government to understand it has a
spending problem and not a revenue problem.
As a result of this addiction to tax and spend, our debt clock
this morning was $549,892,000,000.
The crowd's reaction to the reported comment of the revenue
minister that the government will not be influenced by protests
was one of the loudest of the rally, second only to a demand for
cuts, not scrapes, to our MP pension plan.
You choose to ignore the people we work for at your peril. No
longer are Canadians prepared to roll over and take it from
politicians who are not listening.
[Translation]
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac-Gatineau-Labelle, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I am extremely proud and happy today to draw
attention to the fine victories achieved by Lucienne Robillard in
Saint-Henri-Westmount and by Denis Paradis in the
by-election in Brome-Missisquoi last night.
In addition to underscoring the hard work by the members of
his team, Mr. Paradis' victory is a strong warning to separatist
forces. It is also a good indicator of the mood of the people of
Quebec in this period before the referendum, whatever one
might say. Quebecers will not be fooled by separatist rhetoric.
They are well aware of the issues in this debate. The many still
unanswered questions about an independent Quebec in year one
contributed as well to this victory by the Liberal Party.
This message the people of the ridings of Brome-Missisquoi
and Saint-Henri-Westmount have given to the separatist
forces should encourage the Quebec minister of finance to
present his famous year one budget. Quebecers will then have an
opportunity to see the hidden face of independence for the first
time.
Mr. Speaker, the third period is well underway, and Canadians
are in the lead.
* * *
[
English]
Mr. Raymond Bonin (Nickel Belt, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this is
an historic day for all residents of the Yukon, indeed for all
Canadians. Today the Yukon Land Claims, Self-Government
and Surface Rights Board Acts come into effect marking the
culmination of a process that began exactly 22 years ago.
For Yukon First Nations this means a secure land and
financial base, and greater control over their own affairs. For the
Yukon territory as a whole this opens an era of greater stability
and opportunity.
Today aboriginal and non-aboriginal Yukoners alike stand in
partnership to celebrate this long awaited achievement. I am
certain that hon. members will join me in extending
congratulations to all residents of the Yukon on this historic day.
* * *
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.):
We watched with great interest three byelections here;
Showing to Canadians that Liberals have naught to fear.
The seats were all so safe no one else need apply,
The rest should just watch hockey
No sense to even try.
Ha! we've got them on their haunches,
We'll drop the writ when no one's here,
9601
Even if they wanted,
No votes for them, I fear. But when it comes to safe seats,
The Liberals should not feel too warm.
For Kevin Gaudet with his worthy team
Gave a glimpse of the Reform swarm.
Mr. Chrétien (Saint-Maurice): Resign and we'll have a
byelection.
_____________________________________________
9601
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
(1415)
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
obviously to give the impression that he is always in control of
his department, the minister of defence has called for the
suspension of Major-General Brian Vernon, thereby throwing
him to the wolves, using him as a scapegoat to calm public
opinion. But Major-General Vernon should not bear the sole
burden of responsibility for the incidents in Petawawa.
Does the minister of defence intend to suspend or relieve of
their duties all officers in charge of the Airborne Regiment who
took part in incidents violating army regulations or officers who
failed to intervene to put a stop to such activities?
[English]
Hon. David Collenette (Minister of National Defence and
Minister of Veterans Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon.
member does not obviously listen to answers that I have given
before.
The removal of General Vernon was a decision taken by the
chief of the defence staff. It is his and his alone. It is a decision
in which I concurred.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, whereas
I am accused of not listening to the answers, the minister does
not listen to the questions; that is not what I asked.
Can the minister of defence-and I hope he will understand
my second question better-confirm that the government will
soon award the Order of Military Merit to Lieutenant-Colonel
Kenward, the very person who was supposed to have cleaned up
the Second Airborne Regiment of Petawawa and who was
commander-in-chief at the time of the incidents recorded on the
third video-cassette? Does he still intend to award the Order of
Military Merit to this lieutenant-colonel?
[English]
Hon. David Collenette (Minister of National Defence and
Minister of Veterans Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, that
particular decoration was decided a number of months ago by a
panel in the military following normal practices and will go
ahead as planned.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, does the
Prime Minister consider it normal that his minister of defence
still intends to decorate Lieutenant-Colonel Kenward, the
former commanding officer of the Second Airborne Regiment,
and in fact to do so even before the start of the inquiry which is
supposed to get to the bottom of the events in Petawawa? Does
he consider that normal?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the minister of defence just gave a very clear
explanation. If I heard him right, his peers decided to award that
individual the decoration. That will not prevent the committee
from asking him the appropriate questions when he comes
before the commission.
Mr. Jean-Marc Jacob (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the minister of defence.
The latest information revealed regarding the Petawawa
incidents shows that the minister of defence does not know what
is going on in his department. Incidentally, we have been
waiting, since last fall, for a reply from the minister regarding
the use of an Airbus A-310 by generals who went to Florida to
go play a game of golf during Operation William Tell.
Will the minister of defence tell us whether he knows
anything about the Canadian army's Eagle River exercise?
[English]
Hon. David Collenette (Minister of National Defence and
Minister of Veterans Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this is the
kind of question, as you have advised members before, that
should be reflected in an Order Paper approach rather than in
question period.
(1420)
[Translation]
Mr. Jean-Marc Jacob (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
once again, I will have to tell the minister what is going on in his
department. How can the minister of defence, in this time of
fiscal restraint, not realize that the Eagle River exercise was a
sham, designed to hide a sumptuous fishing trip to Labrador for
senior officers of the Canadian army, at a cost of over $1.6
million for taxpayers in 1993?
[English]
Hon. David Collenette (Minister of National Defence and
Minister of Veterans Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, certainly as
far as I am concerned this is the type of question that should be
for the Order Paper. When it is put down we will give all the
details and costs of any particular program.
9602
I remember some facility in Labrador was closed a couple
of years ago. It had the name eagle in it. Perhaps this is the one.
Certainly I will take notice of the question and get back to the
hon. member.
* * *
Mr. Preston Manning (Calgary Southwest, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, today the provincial finance ministers are meeting with
the federal finance minister to discuss the federal budget.
At least half the provincial finance ministers are doing a
better job at balancing their budgets than the federal
government. One of their greatest concerns is that the federal
government will simply offload its own debt problem on the
backs of the provinces, particularly those that have managed
their finances efficiently.
My question is for the Prime Minister. What assurances could
he give to fiscally responsible provinces that their reward is not
simply going to be an offloading of the federal debt?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I just want to tell the member that he should wait to see
the budget. We have set some extremely clear goals and we will
meet them all.
[Translation]
Since I have the floor, I would like to applaud everyone who
voted in the by-elections yesterday and all of the candidates
from all parties who ran. In particular, I would like to
congratulate the three Liberals who won.
[English]
Mr. Preston Manning (Calgary Southwest, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, yesterday Liberal Premier Clyde Wells of
Newfoundland said that the best thing the federal government
could do would be to stop direct spending in such areas as
education, health and forestry. He argued that all these services
could be better provided at less cost by the levels of government
closest to the public.
Will the Prime Minister follow the Newfoundland premier's
advice and give the provinces real control over these areas
including appropriate tax points? In other words, will he make
clear his government's philosophy on decentralization
including the transfer of tax points to the provinces?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I do not know how the hon. member's arithmetic
works. If we do not spend and we give tax points, the deficit
remains at exactly the same level. If we are not collecting and
we are not paying, it is exactly the same. You should have
checked that before asking the question.
The Speaker: I remind all hon. members to address the Chair.
Mr. Preston Manning (Calgary Southwest, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the Prime Minister's replies are hardly inspiring
confidence. The provincial premiers have joined thousands of
Canadians in saying no to tax increases, no to new taxes, and no
to tax grabs in the name of tax equity.
As provinces like Alberta, New Brunswick and Saskatchewan
reduce their deficits their citizens are looking for tax relief. The
last thing they need to see is a tax grab by a fiscally irresponsible
federal government.
What assurances could the Prime Minister give to the citizens
of those provinces that their reward for practising fiscal
responsibility is not going to be a tax grab by a fiscally
irresponsible federal government?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I said the Minister of Finance would bring in a budget
very soon. It will be a very responsible budget.
(1425 )
When we talk with the provinces they know that the federal
government has to do what is needed to control its deficit. They
will benefit if we control our deficit because the Canadian bond
rating will be better for everybody. They have an interest just
like us that we do very well in the next budget.
Everybody knows that 3 per cent of the GDP for the deficit is a
very reasonable level. I had a discussion yesterday with the
chancellor of Austria who has exactly the same goal as we have
in Canada.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, today, two weeks before budget day, the Minister of
Finance is meeting his provincial counterparts. They will
probably discuss further reductions in transfer payments to the
provinces for social programs financing.
If I understood correctly what the Prime Minister said to the
leader of the Reform Party just now, the government is really
determined to offload its debt problems on the backs of the
provinces, since he just told the leader of the Reform Party that a
transfer of responsibility for post-secondary education, health
and social assistance would not entail a concomitant transfer of
tax points to the provinces. That is what we understood from the
Prime Minister's reply.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, if the provinces asks us to stop paying, we will be glad
to oblige.
Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, I certainly did not expect an answer like that to a
serious question, but I will control myself for your sake.
9603
Can the Prime Minister promise, and this is a serious matter,
that the measures in the upcoming budget will not constitute
an outright offloading of the government's responsibilities on
the backs of the provinces? This is walking away from
responsibility. It is not decentralization.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, every day, the hon. member rises in the House to ask us
to cut spending. If we cut spending, we cut. If he tells us to cut
spending and transfer the money, we are back to square one. We
are going to cut a lot of spending and we are going to try to
achieve our objectives, and we will. We will do what it takes.
Discussions are being held with the provinces. We will try to
reach an agreement the best way we can. Yesterday, Premier
Wells said: stop sending us money for our forests. I am not going
to argue with Mr. Wells. If he does not want money for his
forests, we will not send him any.
* * *
[
English]
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George-Peace River, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, under the justice minister's gun control legislation
tabled earlier today hundreds of thousands of firearms legally
acquired by law-abiding citizens will now be effectively
confiscated.
How does the minister justify his government's confiscation
of private property?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Justice and Attorney
General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's
question is fundamentally flawed. There is nothing in the bill
that confiscates firearms.
The bill is intended to enhance criminal sanctions, to crack
down on the criminal misuse of guns and to achieve the sort of
control any reasonable society wants to ensure public safety.
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George-Peace River, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I contend that the justice minister's plan is
fundamentally flawed. Under his plan these individuals will
only be allowed to transfer their guns to the crown, to the police
or to a few authorized businesses that are licensed to acquire
prohibited firearms.
Could the justice minister tell the thousands of responsible
gun owners who now own these guns if they are going to get a
fair price, considering he has drastically reduced the market?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Justice and Attorney
General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in the first instance I
am proud to say that the government has introduced today
legislation that will be easily accepted by the vast majority of
Canadians.
May I observe as well that the centre point of the plan that
involves registration of all firearms has recently been reported
to have the support of two out of three Albertans among others.
Last, may I draw the hon. member's attention to the bill we
tabled today that makes clear those who own and possess
prohibited firearms may continue to buy and sell among their
own class so that their investment in those firearms is preserved.
* * *
(1430)
[Translation]
Mrs. Pierrette Venne (Saint-Hubert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Justice.
In her report on her investigation of firearms, coroner
Anne-Marie David recommends to the Minister of Justice that
shipments of arms stored and transported by importers be
covered by specific legislation.
In view of the fact that, in Quebec alone, 1,502 imported
revolvers and pistols were reported stolen in 1992 and 1993,
how can the Minister of Justice claim to be tabling a bill that
responds to needs, when he ignored the recommendation of
coroner Anne-Marie David?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Justice and Attorney
General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am disappointed in
the hon. member's attitude toward this bill. On November 30,
when we tabled our program, she found fault with it because we
had no bill. Now that we have a bill, the hon. member is still not
offering any constructive criticism. The hon. member knows
full well that most Canadians, and Quebecers in particular,
support these proposals.
[English]
I would suggest that if the hon. member has suggestions to
make in committee to improve the bill that she do so, but that she
stand today in this House with the majority of Canadians in
favour of this bill instead of making individual criticisms when
overall it meets the safety needs of Canadians.
[Translation]
Mrs. Pierrette Venne (Saint-Hubert, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
given the official opposition's criticism when his plan of action
was unveiled in December, does the Minister of Justice still plan
to allow the owners of the 13,000 automatic weapons registered
in Canada, including 4,000 AK-47s, to keep them legally for the
rest of their lives?
[English]
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Justice and Attorney
General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, according to the bill
that was tabled today, all such paramilitary weapons will be
prohibited.
9604
They will be out of circulation at the end of the lives of those
who now own them.
In the meantime, so that we do not ``confiscate'', to use the
word of the hon. member from another province, they will be
permitted to trade them, buy them and sell them among
members of that same class. However, at the end of the day, in
keeping with the policies and principles of the bill, those
firearms will be out of circulation.
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Justice.
On December 1, 1994 one of my colleagues who was
concerned about the detrimental effect the ban of .32 and .22
calibre handguns would have on the world cup shooting
competitors who have trained at great expense and proudly
represented this country, asked the minister this question: ``Will
the minister make a commitment to remove the .32 calibre
handgun from this list of banned firearms?'' The minister's
response: ``I most certainly will not''. I ask the minister, what
made him change his mind?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Justice and Attorney
General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the .32 calibre
handguns along with .25 calibre handguns will be prohibited by
this legislation.
What we have made clear is that the unique firearm, used for
example by Linda Thom in earning a gold medal at the 1984
Olympics, which is a .32-.22 interchangeable barrel Walther
handgun, will be permitted.
Today we made clear that as we refer this bill to committee
after second reading in this House, we are asking the committee
to identify other handguns that are used in competitions
sanctioned by the International Shooting Union so that
legitimate competitions can continue.
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I might
advise the minister that the Liberal Party of Alberta opposes his
proposal.
Nevertheless, inasmuch as the justice minister has changed
his mind regarding the banning of handguns used in competitive
shooting, what other areas of legislation is the minister prepared
to change?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Justice and Attorney
General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I hope it is evident not
only to the hon. member but to everyone in this House and in the
country that notwithstanding changes as reflected in the bill
introduced today, the one thing that remains is our commitment
to the principles of this policy.
(1435)
Speaking of commitment to principles, the hon. member is a
member of a party which prides itself as the law and order party
in the House of Commons. I would like that party to explain why
it opposes legislation which has the support of the police and the
victims groups of this country.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Prime Minister. The tenors of the federal
government keep on repeating that we can make federalism
more flexible without reforming the constitution, and that
administrative agreements could suffice to settle the issue.
If the Prime Minister wants us to take him seriously, before
the referendum, why has he refused to grant Quebec's requests
regarding job training, and for the sake of efficiency, to finally
acknowledge the consensus in Quebec?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we made the provincial government some offers on this
issue several months ago. We could not grant all of their
requests, and as the minister responsible for federal-provincial
relations said, half a loaf of bread is better than none, and yet,
they refused.
I know very well that she would remain a separatist even if we
resolved the workforce issue. The question that should be asked
in the referendum is: ``Do you want to separate from Canada?''
That is the question, and Quebecers will reply: ``We want to stay
in Canada, we do not want anything to do with the separatists''.
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I detect
in the Prime Minister's answer that he is interested in foiling the
separatists, to the detriment of the unemployed, who are in need
of job training.
Will the Prime Minister confirm that his government never
planned to transfer responsibility for job training to Quebec, but
on the contrary, that he intends to increase intervention in this
area through his social program reforms, financing that
intervention even more, perhaps even with surpluses from the
unemployment insurance fund?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am very pleased to see flexible separatists, because in
this case, she is asking to change the Canadian constitution. She
is no longer talking about separation. So she is going to have to
make up her mind eventually.
* * *
[
English]
Mr. Francis G. LeBlanc (Cape Breton Highlands-Canso,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Fisheries
and Oceans.
9605
At the most recent meeting of the Northwest Atlantic
Fisheries Organization, Canada won a critical vote to protect
and share 60 per cent of the total allowable catch for Greenland
halibut. Now the European Union is threatening to ignore this
internationally respected conservation body and launch a
formal objection. What does Canada intend to do in the face
of this challenge?
Hon. Brian Tobin (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question.
Indeed the fishermen of Canada were pleased when Canada
was assigned by the Northwest Atlantic Fisheries
Organization-
The Speaker: Colleagues, I would ask you please to respect
both the questions and the answers. I am sure we want to hear
both the questions and the answers and everything else which
transpires here in the House. The hon. Minister of Fisheries and
Oceans.
Mr. Tobin: Mr. Speaker, a noisy House is particularly
difficult for quiet-spoken members like me.
Canadian fishermen indeed were pleased to receive from the
Northwest Atlantic Fisheries Organization 60 per cent of the
turbot quota at the meeting in Brussels. They thought it
appropriate that the Spanish fleet fishing under the EU flag
received an appropriate level of allocation, in this case 13 per
cent.
We want to work with the European Union to see this
conservation plan put in place in a responsible fashion. The
Department of Foreign Affairs has taken the lead in making
Canada's view known.
(1440 )
We have heard reports that the EU may object to the NAFO
decision and set unilateral quotas. That is not acceptable to
Canada. The last time the EU set unilateral quotas they
destroyed flatfish stocks and northern cod. Canada will not
stand by and see more stocks destroyed.
* * *
Mr. Jack Frazer (Saanich-Gulf Islands, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Defence.
How many of the men who appeared in the August 1992 video
and how many who appeared in the February 1993 video are still
serving with the airborne regiment?
Mr. Collenette: Mr. Speaker, I was detained for a few
moments. Perhaps the hon. member could repeat his question.
Mr. Frazer: Mr. Speaker, how many of the men who appeared
in the August 1992 video and how many who appeared in the
February 1993 video are still serving with the airborne
regiment?
Hon. David Collenette (Minister of National Defence and
Minister of Veterans Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the actions in
those videos are subject to investigation. Once we have the
answers I will make them available to the hon. member.
Mr. Jack Frazer (Saanich-Gulf Islands, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the minister knows he could transfer everyone
connected with those incidents and those in Somalia, but retain
the regiment.
Has he considered that by disbanding the airborne he is
unnecessarily inflicting upon the Canadian taxpayer millions of
dollars in costs for relocating the personnel and their families,
for dismantling the facility at Petawawa and for establishing a
new facility for the new unit?
Hon. David Collenette (Minister of National Defence and
Minister of Veterans Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I dealt with
all these questions three weeks ago. I am sorry the hon. member
is now just addressing them.
With respect to operational costs, there probably will be some
operational costs involved. On the other hand, most of the
activity at CFB Petawawa will be retained simply because in the
white paper we announced an augmentation of the army
capability. Therefore those people in that particular area should
not feel too badly from an economic point of view.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister for International Trade.
Another trade dispute is looming between Canada and the
U.S., this time over eggs, poultry and dairy products, which are
all subject to quotas. Such a dispute might hit agricultural
producers in Quebec and Canada very hard.
Will the Minister for International Trade firmly reiterate
Canada's position by arguing that its tariff schedule is totally
consistent with the new GATT, now WTO, agreements and does
he undertake not to make any concessions to the Americans on
this issue?
[English]
Hon. Roy MacLaren (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, yes.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères, BQ): Mr. Speaker, can
the minister make a very clear, perhaps fuller, concrete
commitment not to accept any reduction in the customs tariffs
put in place by Canada, including those for yogurt and ice
cream, or any other concession that would hurt the interests of
poultry and dairy producers in Quebec and Canada?
9606
[English]
Hon. Roy MacLaren (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the specific question of ice cream and
yogurt has been a matter of a GATT panel decision. We will take
action in light of that decision.
Concerning the broader question of dairy and poultry, we will
indeed pursue our basic position that-I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, I
do not want you to think I do not enjoy looking at you.
The Speaker: I want the hon. minister to know that the
feeling is reciprocal.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. MacLaren: Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, Canada will of
course defend vigorously its fundamental position that the
tariffication under the GATT takes precedence over NAFTA.
* * *
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, Quebec joins
Alberta in thinking that the federal Minister of Health is wrong
in her rigid rules on semiprivate clinics.
(1445)
Health minister Rochon says: ``Health is a provincial
jurisdiction. It is not Marleau's place to determine''.
Why does this health minister stick with a rigid centralist
view of health care when the rest of the country wants flexibility
and real reform?
Hon. Diane Marleau (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I would advise the member to read the Canada Health
Act. That is why we are doing it.
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the premier of
Newfoundland also agrees with Quebec. He says: ``The federal
government should stop interfering in provincial areas such as
health. Provinces want flexibility. The citizens want
flexibility''. Has this health minister one single proposal to
make Canada's health system more flexible?
Hon. Diane Marleau (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I would remind the hon. member to go back and get a
copy of the Canada Health Act and read it.
* * *
Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain (Guelph-Wellington, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, my question is for the President of the Treasury
Board and the minister responsible for the national
infrastructure program.
The national infrastructure program has been a catalyst for
growth in Guelph-Wellington and in every community in
Canada. Can the minister provide an update as to the status of
the program and the number of jobs it has created in Ontario and
in this country?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (President of the Treasury Board
and Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have more good news for the House.
We are not even half way through the funding allocation of
this program. Already some 4,700 projects have been approved
in Ontario, creating some 31,000 jobs. This is going a long way
to putting Canadians back to work and strengthening the
infrastructure in our communities and well on the way to the
creation of 100,000 jobs.
I think it says to the premier of Ontario that he is out to lunch
when he says that we are not focused on jobs. That is our number
one priority.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Health.
Tomorrow, Judge Krever will submit to the cabinet his interim
report on the activities surrounding the blood supply system in
Canada.
In order to ensure at least a minimum of openness, can the
minister undertake to release the Krever Commission's interim
report as soon as it is submitted to cabinet?
Hon. Diane Marleau (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, Judge Krever's report is not presented to me personally
but to cabinet. We will, of course, respond as quickly as
possible.
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, how
can the minister claim to be restoring Canadians' confidence in
their blood supply system when she is not even willing to make
this report public as soon as it is presented to cabinet?
[English]
Hon. Diane Marleau (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, let me reassure the hon. member and every Canadian
that we have not waited to take action. We have taken a number
of very decisive steps to ensure the safety of the blood supply in
Canada.
When the report is received we will respond quickly. We will
respond with all appropriate action to ensure that not only is the
blood supply system in this country as good as everyone else's
but that it is the best in the world.
9607
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Comox-Alberni, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
clean up of the Sydney tar ponds in Nova Scotia is under a dark
cloud.
The tar ponds, described as Canada's worst environmental
disaster, were exempted by the previous government from an
environmental assessment.
Because of this deadly blunder the list of compounds and their
concentrations in the tar ponds is not fully known. In addition,
the toxic coke oven site is not included in the clean ups and the
ability of the incinerator to destroy PCBs is in question.
(1450 )
Given these severe limitations, will the environment minister
order a full environmental assessment of the Sydney tar ponds
project, including the coke oven site and the incineration
process?
Hon. Sheila Copps (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister
of the Environment, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I can repeat to the hon.
member that the federal Ministry of the Environment will be
working very closely with the province of Nova Scotia to ensure
that the CCME guidelines that were adopted in 1992 on
hazardous waste incineration, that is stronger, more stringent
guidelines, will be applied. We will be working with the
province to monitor its application to ensure the health and the
safety of all of the residents around the Sydney tar ponds.
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Comox-Alberni, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
this is only part of the problem. A full environmental assessment
needs to look at all the problems, including the coke ovens.
Yesterday the minister replied that the tar ponds project was
operating within CCME guidelines. The minister's answer is
inconsistent with the 1994 consultant's report which lists
federal guidelines and compares them with the tar ponds
operating permit, showing many discrepancies.
Will the minister explain the glaring inconsistencies between
the tar ponds consultant's report and her answer yesterday?
Hon. Sheila Copps (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister
of the Environment, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, when the tar ponds
operating permit was established in 1988 it was established
according to available environmental guidelines at that time.
When in 1992 the Canadian Council of Ministers of the
Environment improved the guidelines to ensure that they were
more stringent with respect to PCB incineration, the project in
Nova Scotia in question was voluntarily submitted to those
guidelines.
As I stated yesterday and in my previous answer, we are
working with the Government of Nova Scotia to ensure that not
only the incineration be below the acceptable guidelines but
also that the regulations generally be changed to reflect that.
* * *
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Prime Minister.
Will the Prime Minister reassure this House that he will raise
the matter of further American restrictions of Canadian sugar
and sugar containing products that are endangering our sugar
industry when he meets with President Clinton later this month?
Will the Prime Minister stand up for Canadians whose jobs are at
risk because of American protectionism?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): The
answer is oui.
* * *
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Minister of Human Resources
Development and has to do with Mr. Hope's report on the rail
negotiations which the minister has now had for about a week.
When will the minister be releasing the report? Many railway
workers have been waiting a long time for this matter to be
resolved and they want to see this matter resolved. When will he
be releasing the report and when will he tell the Minister of
Transport to stop acting like the minister for the CNR or the CPR
and tell the Minister of Transport to keep his big nose out of
these negotiations?
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Speaker: I am sure the hon. member was using a figure of
speech. I hope we will not resort to these types of remarks. The
hon. Minister of Human Resources Development.
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Human Resources
Development and Minister of Western Economic
Diversification, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have always been a great
admirer of the distinguished profile of my colleague, the
Minister of Transport, and so I certainly have no intention of
undertaking any effort to probe his proboscis.
On the more serious matter, I would like to report that I have
received a copy of commissioner Hope's report. Because of the
significance and impact we are studying it very carefully. We
also will have to submit it for translation so that it is available in
both official languages. We would want to depose the report as
quickly as possible so that we can get on with the negotiations
and discussions.
9608
I say to my hon. friend that there is nothing to stop the parties
coming to an agreement without that report if they want to
really get down to the brass tacks and negotiate a new deal for
the railways.
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
I do not want to follow up on the question of the minister's
profile but I do want to follow up on the question I asked the
minister responsible for labour about what he is going to do
about the fact that the Minister of Transport is taking a position
in these negotiations identical to that of the companies.
(1455 )
This is not what the Minister of Transport is supposed to do. It
is what the minister of labour should object to if he wants to
protect the integrity of that process.
What will the Minister of Human Resources Development be
telling his colleague in this respect?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Human Resources
Development and Minister of Western Economic
Diversification, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the responsibility of the
minister of labour is to ensure that the Canada Labour Code is
properly honoured and recognized by both management and
labour in the conduct of their affairs and in their discussions,
which we are doing dutifully and properly, and that where there
are disputes, we are also here to represent the public interest and
to make sure that we can resolve these disputes on the basis
which will ensure that all Canadians are served well.
* * *
Mrs. Jane Stewart (Brant, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Canadians
were extremely happy to hear this morning that a ceasefire has
been reached in the terrible war in Chechnya. Like most
Canadians, I have been horrified by the brutal violence and
bloodshed that have marked this war.
Can the Minister of Foreign Affairs inform the House what
the ceasefire will mean for the efforts to establish a lasting peace
in this area of the world?
Hon. André Ouellet (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, quite clearly we are happy to see that at last there is
a ceasefire. We hope that this will be the prelude to intensive
negotiations that will lead to lasting piece in that part of Russia.
Clearly, as the hon. member has indicated, we are concerned
for the civilians who have been terribly affected by this war. We
are in consultation with the international Red Cross in order to
assist civilians who have been affected.
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National
Defence and Veterans Affairs.
Mr. René Cormier, a member of the Canadian Pension
Commission, has been on paid leave, not sick leave, not for a
few weeks or a few months, but for over one year. Will the
minister please explain to Canadians suffering under crippling
tax burdens how this situation involving a political appointee at
$100,000 a year can be justified?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Secretary of State (Veterans),
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I can assure my hon. colleagues that it is
before the courts and will be settled shortly.
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, I hope we do not need a fourth video for someone to
take action.
My supplemental question is for the President of the Treasury
Board. The minister expects Canadians to take him seriously
when he talks of reforms to the public service while political
patronage appointments like Mr. Cormier are paid for over a
year at the taxpayers' expense without doing a thing.
Would it not be a good idea to establish exactly how many
redundant political appointments are out there and show some
leadership by example by cutting redundant patronage positions
before asking productive public servants to take cuts?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I want to have the last word today.
In response to the hon. member, we have made a review of all
order in council appointments. Hundreds of have been cut since
this government has taken charge. We are reviewing all of these
appointments. We have reduced them and we intend to continue
to do so.
In the case of this individual, as the Minister of State for
Veterans said, it is a problem which is before the courts at the
moment.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier-Montcalm, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, last week, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs
said that most of the $5.9 million budget for its department's
task force on Canadian unity had been used to finance studies on
duplication and overlap between federal and provincial
programs.
Considering the numerous questions asked by the Official
Opposition regarding waste due to duplication and overlap, will
9609
the minister agree to release the studies conducted by its
department and table them in the House?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Queen's Privy
Council for Canada, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs
and Minister responsible for Public Service Renewal, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, we currently have action plans with eight
provinces and two territories to reduce duplication. Over the last
year, we signed 64 agreements with the provinces and the
territories and they are all public. Consequently, we have no
problem with letting the opposition marvel at such
achievements.
(1500)
By September 12, 1994, eight agreements had been concluded
with Quebec. Of course, there have not been any since, but we
continue to use money to reduce duplication and overlap. We do
not talk about it: We do it.
* * *
[
English]
The Speaker: I wish to draw the attention of hon. members to
the presence in the gallery of the hon. Wayne Adams, Minister
of Supply and Services of the province of Nova Scotia.
With him today is the hon. Ross Bragg, Minister responsible
for Economic Development and Tourism of the province of
Nova Scotia.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
* * *
Hon. Audrey McLaughlin (Yukon, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I
should like to clarify a statement I made earlier today. When I
referred to a very strong and respect Indian leader in Yukon I had
meant to say Elijah Smith and inadvertently said the late Elijah
Harper.
I certainly express my regrets to the hon. member for
Churchill for having made that error. I am reminded of
Shakespeare's statement that we come to praise Caesar, not to
bury him. I express my regrets to the member.
* * *
Hon. Douglas Peters (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to
Standing Order 83(1), I wish to table a notice of a ways and
means motion to amend the Income Tax Act, and I ask that an
order of the day be designated for consideration of the motion.
9609
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[
English]
The House resumed consideration of the motion.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
12 years ago a Boeing 767 flying from Montreal to Edmonton
nearly crashed over northwestern Ontario. This near tragedy
was not a result of a mechanical failure or a powerful prairie
thunderstorm. It simply ran out of gas.
In its statement the airline placed the blame for this
emergency on human error involved in converting the fuel
measurement from imperial to metric amounts. It was only the
skill of the pilot that manoeuvred the drifting aircraft to a safe
landing. At 30,000 feet refuelling is no longer an option. The
fate of the passengers lay in the hands of leadership.
Interestingly enough the airline was Air Canada.
(1505 )
Canada as a nation is like that aircraft. Our ship of state is in
trouble, not because of some internal mechanical malfunction
but because of human error.
The world has changed to a new competitive economy. The
rules have changed but our ground crew still does not know how
to make the conversion. After two decades of human error air
Canada is drifting. Our financial reserves are empty and
Canadians, the passengers, are deeply concerned about their
future and safety. The only problem is that at this moment the
incompetent ground crew is still flying the aeroplane.
Each one of us knows that personal security is vitally
important to Canadians. Ours is a compassionate society. We all
want to know that our friends, families, neighbours and
ourselves will be taken care of during times of need. Yet
somehow after 30 years of ballooning government spending on
social programs we have been left with less security rather than
more. Why is this so?
Let me save the suspense by answering my own question.
Canadians feel more insecure now than ever before because
government overspending has robbed them of their personal
security. The welfare state has failed. Just as communism and
socialism crumbled after a 75-year experiment, our own
25-year social digression has come to a painful conclusion.
Canadians are beginning to realize that the welfare state is not
working and that it is time to re-evaluate the government's role
in providing social security to individuals. The greatest single
danger to the personal security of Canadians comes from the
9610
financial unsustainability of social programs currently
monopolized by government. They are unsustainable if we have
to borrow money to pay for them, which is exactly what
successive governments have done for the last 25 years.
Thanks to such irresponsible management the federal debt is
now over $530 billion and provincial and municipal
governments owe another $190 billion. Instead of providing
peace of mind these programs and their associated debt have left
Canadians feeling anxious about this, about their and their
families' futures.
Why have Canada's debt and deficit left Canadians feeling
anxious and insecure about their futures? The reason Canadians
feel such concern is that after being deceived for so long, led to
believe that government would look after them and take care of
them from cradle to grave, they have come to realize they are
now relying on a bankrupt state. They have come to realize the
interest payments on the debt have become so large and are
growing so fast that it is beginning to crowd out the social
programs that have protected them for nearly a generation.
The greatest risks to Canada's social fabric are the threats of
annual deficits and a rising national debt which over the past 30
years has crowded out many legitimate expenditures of
governments.
We have borrowed so much over the last 25 years and
accumulated so much debt that all the money we borrow this
year will be used to pay interest on our federal debt. When it
comes to government there are no free lunches. In fact
compound interest make the ultimate cost of what government is
borrowing very costly indeed; in fact more costly than if we had
paid for them outright, if we had paid our own way to begin with.
Effectively interest payments are crowding out programs.
Money that could be used to help Canadians is simply not
available to us because we have to pay our interest obligations.
Interest payment on the debt is now the single largest
expenditure item for many governments, depleting resources for
public investments in health, education and infrastructure. As
we continue to borrow, our debt increases as does the interest,
leaving even less money for essential programs.
Where does all this debt and compound interest leave
Canadians? It leaves us paying more taxes while at the same
time receiving fewer services. Canada's debt burden is both
eating up a substantial portion of current tax dollars and
reducing the ability of all levels of government to provide
essential social services. Can we understand now why
Canadians are concerned?
(1510)
How did we get into this mess? Whose human error or
ignorance while working with ground support has brought us to
a place of flying empty at 30,000 feet? Who could the
passengers of our drifting air Canada hold responsible for
bringing them into such a dangerous predicament?
It just so happens the ground support staff has been promoted
to captain and crew. Is that not a comforting thought? The very
ones who got us into this mess are now in control. Meanwhile,
Captain Chrétien sails serenely on committing ordinary
Canadians to a perpetual stream of more interest. Ironically it
was the Trudeau Liberal government of which Mr. Chrétien was
a member and a one-time finance minister-
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Order. I remind the House
that during any intervention while referring to any member of
the government cabinet we refer to the position or the office. In
this case it is the right hon. Prime Minister or the Minister of
Finance as opposed to the individual's name.
Mrs. Ablonczy: Mr. Speaker, ironically it was the Trudeau
Liberal government of which the present Prime Minister was a
member and a one-time finance minister that first sold
Canadians on the myth that big government could solve most of
our problems. What they never made clear was that they would
pay for this by heavy taxation and borrowing from future
generations.
For more than a quarter of a century Canadians have been
encouraged to increasingly rely on government and they have
done just that. The disastrous consequences of these Liberal
policies are now threatening the well-being of society.
As a co-pilot and former ground support staffer, the failure of
the human resources minister to reform social programs to make
them target better and cost less is a failure that all Canadians
will pay for in the form of higher taxes.
We need to fight the debt and deficit not to hurt people but to
help them, to free them from the chains of insecurity, the links of
which are made of debt and interest payments. The welfare state
is sinking under the weight of its own waste, inefficiency and
disabling dependency.
Fundamental reform and renewal of our social security
framework are absolutely imperative if we are to have any hope
of sustaining our existing high quality of life, providing
Canadian youth with opportunities rather than simply an
unmanageable financial obligation, and continuing to help the
poor and needy among us.
The government intends to continue to borrow billions of
dollars every year. Extra interest must then be paid on each
year's borrowings. Each extra dollar in interest is a dollar taken
out of our economy, a dollar that could have been used to expand
a business, take advantage of trade opportunities or hire an
unemployed Canadian.
Let us imagine what Canadians could have done with the over
$40 billion we had to pay out of our pockets in interest last year
alone. Let us imagine the health care it would have paid for or
9611
the poor whose basic needs could have been met. Let us imagine
the education and training that $40 billion could have provided
or the help to our seniors who live in poverty.
The government should act now before interest drains our
social security further and further every year, get a grip on its
spending, find more effective ways to deliver the services we
require, and let us get on with the job of building a secure society
for ourselves and our children.
Mr. Alex Shepherd (Durham, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
congratulate the member for Calgary North who I thought gave a
fine presentation. Seemingly she is concerned about finding
somebody to blame for our past problems and our budgetary
situation today.
I note that all western democracies, all OECD countries,
increased their deficits during this period of time. Clearly we
would not blame the Prime Minister or our party for the debts of
the rest of the world.
I do not think it is fair realistically to go back and study
history. What we want and what the people of Canada want are
solutions. I am surprised by an opposition party that has no
solutions. All I heard were complaints. All I heard were
problems. There were no solutions.
(1515 )
There is one thing I would like to know as a bottom line from
my hon. colleagues in the Reform Party. They want to basically
allocate social spending to the provinces, give up tax points to
the provinces. What is the end result of this philosophy? Ten
balkanized countries within Canada? What about standards,
health standards, labour standards? What is it that makes a
country?
Mrs. Ablonczy: Mr. Speaker, there were a lot of questions in
that intervention. I would be happy to address them.
My hon. colleague says that Canada was not the only one that
ran up a debt, that everyone else did too, so why pick on us. I do
not know about you, Mr. Speaker, but your mother was probably
like mine. She used to say to me: ``If all your friends jump off a
bridge, does that mean you are going to too?''. We are not
responsible for other countries. The leadership of our country is
responsible for us. It has not done a very responsible job of
looking after our interests in the long term.
Members opposite are always pleading for solutions from our
party. We have worked hard to provide them with solutions. We
will even be providing them with an alternative budget which is
something no opposition party has ever done before.
I would suggest to the hon. member that perhaps he and his
party need to work a little harder to provide some solutions.
They should provide some glimmer of reform solutions to the
people of Canada. I might add that solutions in the social policy
area were promised loud and long and have never been delivered
on.
Members opposite need to realize that if tax points were given
to the provinces in order to allow them to have more control over
the social programs in their provinces, the tax points grow as the
tax base of the province grows. The tax base, the economies of
our provinces and our country have been growing.
Once we give provinces tax points, their potential tax base
actually expands, many over time. They actually have more
hope of funding their programs long term and having a
continuing source of revenue than if they were dependent on
transfers from the federal government. As we have seen,
transfers can be cut or are very uncertain. Provinces that have
their own tax base to draw from are much more secure-and my
economist colleague is nodding so I think I have this right-than
if they are totally dependent on whatever largesse the federal
government might decide to give them from time to time.
My colleague mentions fears that if there is not a centralist
government, a tightly controlled federation from the centre
which has always been the Liberal vision of this country, that
somehow things will go to hell in a hand basket. I might point
out to him that things are not too far from going to hell in a hand
basket with the centralist vision having been very firmly in
place for the last 25 years.
Surely we can do no worse than to trust those governments
which are closest to us the people. We have the most impact on
those and we can influence them more effectively than distant,
federal central governments. If we could have more say and
more influence over our own local governments, we would be a
lot better off than we are today.
Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to speak to our supply motion
which demands that the government respond to the demands of
Canadians with spending cuts and not net tax increases.
Currently we are engaged in one of the greatest threats to our
society and economy. It is not something that comes from
without, but something that comes from within our own
boundaries. It is not the deficit spending but the debt, that
massive summation of overspending that has gone on for at least
two decades that seeks to compromise every aspect of our
society, every aspect of our economy and seeks to affect every
individual in this country from coast to coast.
What is the magnitude of this debt? Many people talk about
the federal debt being $550 billion. They do not include the
provincial debt of $220 billion, the municipal debt of several
billion, and unfunded liabilities such as CPP in the order of $500
billion. What does this do? The combination of all this amounts
9612
to over $1.2 trillion. This debt is ever increasing and causes us to
pay increasing amounts of interest from the public purse on this.
(1520)
The government takes in about $120 billion every year and
spends about $160 billion which means a deficit of about $40
billion. It is interesting because this amount is actually the
amount of interest we borrow every year to pay on our debt. The
government also spends out of this $40 billion on government
services and about $80 billion on social programs.
As the debt increases we have larger interest payments to
make which must come from one of two sources, either
increased taxes or a boost in the economy. The increased taxes
will either come from companies or from individuals.
If you are an individual it decreases your ability to spend
money which has a downward effect on the economy. Similarly,
if members speak to businesses in their communities they will
find they cannot hire more people, they cannot do more
research, they cannot do any more development, they cannot
expand. Therefore it has a depressing and downward effect on
the economy.
The citizens of Canada have sent a clear message to every
member of Parliament: No new taxes; get the economic house in
order; and make the necessary cuts in expenditures to do this
because our taxes are already too high.
The government has said it will cut expenditures to 3 per cent
of GDP, but I submit this is an element of intellectual
dishonesty. This comes from the Maastricht negotiations where
it was said that the combined amounts should be 3 per cent of the
net debt, not the federal debt, but the accumulated debt which in
this country is over $1 trillion.
If we adhere to what this government wishes to do, over a
period of three years we will add at least $100 billion to the debt
and further increase the amount of interest payments we have to
make every year.
Even if we balance the budget, and we should look at the New
Zealand experiment, there will be no change in interest
payments over the short term and these expenditures will
continue, but we do not have a choice in the matter. If we look at
New Zealand now, some 10 years after its economic downturn,
we see a country that is booming, a country that has one of the
most aggressive and positive economies in the world. The
reason it did this was because it was forced to the wall to get its
economic house in order.
We do not necessarily want to go the way of New Zealand. We
do not want a solution foisted upon us from outside the country
by the international financial institutions. We would like to have
a made in Canada solution, a solution which makes cuts that are
sensitive and sensible without affecting the poorest of the poor
in order to save the core of our social programs and to keep the
economy we have come to know.
Our role in opposition is not to continually criticize, as the
member from the other party mentioned just a few minutes ago.
We have put forth a constructive and specific program to this
government on how and where to make the necessary decreases
in government expenditures. In other words, we have put
forward constructive alternatives which very few opposition
parties in the history of Parliament have ever done.
Initially, our financial group looked at government operations
and removed $10 billion from that. Further, it decided to make
cuts of $15 billion to $18 billion from social programs. The rest
we would need in order to balance the budget would come from a
3 per cent growth in the economy.
Contrary to what has been put forward in the media, we are not
a slash and burn party. Rather we are putting forth constructive
and sensitive cuts in order to preserve the core of social
programs in order to minimize the effect it will have on those
who are most disadvantaged in our society.
Be aware that if we do not make these necessary changes now
while we are in an economic upturn, we will have to do it in an
economic downturn. That, my colleagues, will be one which is
going to affect those who are least advantaged the most.
(1525)
As I said before, our financial group has put forth a very
constructive and specific plan in making these decreases to
expenditures. The first priority is that we in this House must set
an example. As a result of that we say: Let us make the cuts from
the top first.
First we spoke about revamping MP pension plans and time
and time again we have presented to this government specific
ways in which to do that.
We have also advocated a 15 per cent cut to our budgets and
eliminating excessive travel by members of Parliament. Just as
an aside, each of us in this House can actually do this. In my
office we found that by booking early and looking for deals we
have decreased the amount of travel expenditures by 60 per cent
from the average MP. If we all did this, it would be a
considerable saving to the taxpayer.
We also say in this party that we must prioritize the funding to
ensure that those aspects of government that are essential, that
is, health care, education and law enforcement, are of the
highest priority in terms of spending. We must also decrease
duplication between the federal and provincial governments for
savings of roughly $3.5 billion.
Some examples are eliminating the Official Languages Act
which would save $310 million, to such things as eliminating
official multiculturalism. Just as an aside I would like to say that
this policy is one of the most divisive policies in the country.
9613
Rather than concentrating on those things that bind us together
as individuals it concentrates on our differences.
Speaking as an immigrant to this country, one who is very
proud to have had the ability to come here and live here, this
country offers so many things to all different peoples. One of the
beauties of this country is that we are one of the few countries in
the world which has been able to merge together over 160
different ethnic groups into a relatively heterogeneous group in
peace. It is something as Canadians we ought to be proud of. Our
new Governor General actually made a point of mentioning this
in his installation speech which I was very grateful to hear.
Another aspect in our financial plan has been to stop
subsidizing businesses and special interest groups to the tune of
$3.7 billion a year. When we speak to businesses in the
community they do not want handouts. They want a stable
economy, a stable dollar, a skilled workforce and good
information about where they can capitalize on export markets.
I encourage our fellow members who sit on the foreign affairs
committee and the foreign affairs and international trade
department to please listen and devise ways in which companies
in our country can aggressively take advantage of export
markets. They are out there and we can do it. We are more than
happy to help.
The cuts we propose are over three years. Again we have
emphasized no new taxes.
Some studies recently have come out to say that we in Canada
are not taxed that heavily. I would argue again that this is an
example of intellectual dishonesty. What it looked at was an
example of taxation as a percentage of GDP which has no
relation whatsoever as to how this affects each individual
Canadian.
What is perhaps more revealing is to look at how it would
affect the average person on the street. In 1961 the average
Canadian family paid 22 per cent of its income in taxes and the
free tax day was May 3. In 1994 the average Canadian family
paid 46 per cent of its income in taxes and the tax free day
jumped 44 days to June 16. We are being taxed more. Just in the
eight years these taxes per family have gone up $3,500. This is
due to increased spending by governments.
The government has recommended and made rumblings on
increases in taxes on gas, lottery winnings, dental and medical
benefits, surtaxes on individuals and businesses, RRSPs,
inheritance taxes, and so on. The public and we in this party have
said time and time again: Do not do this; we will not allow it to
happen.
We would ask the finance minister to please look very
carefully at the well thought out and specific plans our financial
group has put forth. Please adopt as many of these plans as
possible to do. We are more than happy to help you get our
economic house in order. I put that to you as an offer.
(1530)
[Translation]
Mr. Nic Leblanc (Longueuil, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I listened
carefully to the member for Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca tell us a
lot about federal expenditures. I must remind him that this has
been going on for a long time and particularly since 1970, when
the Liberal government of the time decided to centralize pretty
well everything in Ottawa in an effort to boost the economy, so
to speak. At that point in the 1970s, the government, by
borrowing to create jobs and build up the economy, also caused
the economy to overheat somewhat, which led to an appalling
rate of inflation.
Do you remember the 1970s? Having created the inflation
itself, the government was obliged to raise interest rates enough
in the 1980s in order to reduce this appalling inflation, which
had reached a rate of approximately 10 per cent per year. This
means that the government created the inflation between 1970
and 1980. In 1980, it raised interest rates to reduce inflation and
caused the recession. In 1984, the Conservatives continued to
spend in the same way as the Liberals, who had set up certain
projects to get through the recession between 1980 and 1984.
Between 1984 and 1990, the Conservative federal
government continued to spend as the Liberals had between
1970 and 1980. They created more inflation, and, naturally, in
1990, they raised the interest rates and created another
recession, which has lasted four or five years now.
It is easy enough to understand; this means that the federal
government has caused all of Canada's problems. It is clear and
precise. I will try to explain, in three minutes, that the real cause
of the debt is the federal government itself which interfered in
matters of no concern to it. It meddled in the economy, in all
kinds of things.
I agree in principle with the Reform Party member who says
that the federal government must stop some of its interference
with the provinces if not most of it. And before him, the Reform
Party member for Calgary-North said much the same. The
government must disentangle itself and decentralize precisely
to restore order in the country.
This is why I, for one, have taken the position that federalism
has caused a tremendous amount of harm and has led Canada to
bankruptcy and this is why I ask and we ask that Quebec become
a sovereign nation in economic association with the rest of
Canada, with Canada remaining as a type of committee or
advisory board, a type of board responsible for managing areas
the regions have in common. I would to hear the member's
comments on this.
9614
[English]
Mr. Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca): Mr. Speaker, I
thank my hon. colleague for the number of questions he poses.
We all know the history of the debt and deficit but rather than
pointing fingers back in time we should look forward in the
interests of all Canadians to put forward a constructive solution.
I believe that is one of the things we have done.
Another issue that my hon. colleague mentions is the division
between federal and provincial responsibilities. I will take but
one example that is probably very close to his heart and that is
the official languages policy. We in this party and people from
coast to coast, including the people in Quebec, have said that the
official languages policy has been a dismal failure.
We are saying we should give language responsibility to the
provinces. If every province had that responsibility then they,
the people inside the province, will determine what will be the
language of choice in that area. It would reflect the regional
bilingualism or unilingualism of an area. It would also save the
taxpayer hundreds of millions of dollars per year.
To reiterate, the biggest threat we have to the social programs
is continued overspending. What we are trying to do, what we
are obligated to do in the interests of those who are most
disadvantaged in our society is to ensure that we get spending
under control to enable the government to have the money to
spend on them.
(1535)
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it
is a pleasure for me to participate in this debate.
As I listen to the Reform Party and particularly the last
speaker, I cannot help wondering if they believe in a country
called Canada at all, believe in a sense of nationhood, in a
society in which the public sector, the private sector all have a
role to play. Do they believe in the kind of liberalism that has
always defended the proper balance between those two roles but
above all has stood for a sense of nationhood from coast to coast
and not a patchwork quilt?
This debate provides us a good opportunity to bring
Canadians and the Reform Party up to date on some of the very
specific measures that the government has undertaken to control
spending and to use their money prudently.
[Translation]
If the hon. members opposite would only take the time to look
at the budget the Minister of Finance tabled last year and to add
up all of the initiatives on public finances taken since, they
would conclude that the motion is a little off the mark.
[English]
In that budget we made a start, but only a start, by reducing the
deficit from $45.7 billion to $39.7 billion. This was done by
cutting spending. There were $5 of cuts for every dollar of
revenue action.
More important, we introduced a number of policies to
stimulate job creation and the economy responded admirably.
Since we came to office in November 1993, 413,000 new jobs
have been created in Canada. I have to say on behalf of my own
region that 13,400 of these were created in the national capital
region in spite of expenditure reductions and government
restraint. The Canadian economy is now out performing those of
all G-7 countries and it is expected to do the same next year.
[Translation]
For clarity and conciseness, I will only comment on
initiatives sponsored by the hon. Marcel Massé, Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs and Minister responsible for Public
Service Renewal.
[English]
These initiatives, in general an integral part of the
government's overall approach of fiscally sound management,
will themselves contribute in a substantial way to the longer
term economic management of the country.
When the government took office, we realized that as a
nation, we are confronted with change the magnitude of which
we have never seen before. The changes that are occurring here,
in other countries and in most spheres of human endeavour are
ushering in an altogether new era.
[Translation]
It was obvious to us that the old methods of approaching and
resolving problems were longer adequate. It was also obvious
that, to continue serving the population well in the next century,
we would have to change the very role the government played.
[English]
As a government, our agenda is clear: creating the conditions
to sustain economic growth, facilitate the creation of new
business and get people back to work. As a government, our
message is clear. Government spending is being and will
continue to be brought under control.
As a nation we have reached a point of no return where we no
longer have alternatives. Postponing the hard decisions that are
needed this year would merely postpone the inevitable need for
more dramatic and disruptive action in the future.
(1540 )
My hon. colleague, the minister and the government caucus
understand that any serious attempt at deficit reduction now and
especially in the long term requires a basic restructuring of what
9615
government is and what government does. That is exactly what
the minister has been doing this last year, looking at precisely
how government can be restructured in such a way that it not
only spends less but also concentrates on its core roles and
responsibilities.
The full details, as we are all aware, will be announced in the
forthcoming budget. However, the minister has looked at ways
that government operations can be more focused, more client
centred, more efficient and more cost effective. In a word, the
kind of government Canadians want, at a price they can afford.
It is very obvious that Canadians have understood our
intentions, that they agree with and support our approach. We
need only look at the results of yesterday's byelections for
confirmation of this. The voters in three riding enthusiastically
endorsed the Liberal government's actions to create jobs and
growth.
[Translation]
Mr. Speaker, you will recall that the Prime Minister asked Mr.
Massé to lead a review of every department's programs,
activities and expenditures. This initiative, known as a program
review, covered approximately $47 billion in program spending.
[English]
The program review had three major objectives. The first was
to strengthen the public administration of federal programs and
services. Program review will lead to a smaller, more efficient
federal government delivering high priority programs to
Canadians.
The second objective was to make a contribution to the
modernization of Canadian federalism. Program review will
help ensure the federal government delivers only those
programs and services it is best equipped to deliver.
The third objective was to help the government meet its fiscal
objectives. Federal departments have recommended major
reductions in program spending based on their priorities. In
general, ministers proposed a range of program changes and
consolidations which are to be implemented following the 1995
budget.
These changes are designed to ensure that departments
discard non-core responsibilities. Similar programs and
services are placed in a single department to achieve maximum
efficiency. What has been done with pesticide control in recent
days is a very good example of that.
Overlap and duplication among and between departments and
jurisdictions is removed. New technologies are used to lower the
cost of program delivery, while increasing service standards.
Cost recovery and user fees are to be used to finance programs
that provide economic benefits to clients and stakeholders.
[Translation]
Every sector of government activity-from transportation,
farming and fisheries to energy, mines and forestry, as well as
assistance to businesses, immigration, etc-was reviewed.
Almost all federal departments will be called upon to restructure
their programs and to concentrate their efforts on sectors of
national or international importance, sectors which are in the
general interest of the country. This was one of the program
review's guiding principles.
[English]
Program review outcomes will provide clear and undeniable
evidence that the federal government has confronted its fiscal
pressures by getting its own fiscal house in order. The federal
public service will be reduced significantly. Its size and
functions will be brought into line with the federal government
core roles arising from the program review.
This is and will continue to be a difficult period for public
service employees right across the country and here in the
national capital region. Local members of Parliament such as
myself and the newly elected member for Ottawa-Vanier are
all committed to ensuring that reductions in the public service
workforce are managed in a fair, orderly way so as to reduce to
an absolute minimum the stresses and disruptions to the lives of
individuals affected.
(1545)
As public service employees across this country hear
horrendous stories about the magnitude of downsizing, I want it
to be clear that we are not talking about huge numbers of public
service employees losing their jobs. Financial compensation
packages will be there. They will be fair and they will be
adequate.
We will be flexible and imaginative in our approach. Every
means at the disposal of government will be used to ease and
facilitate the acquisition of new skills to make the transition to
new careers as smooth and as complete as possible.
Let me illustrate how the program review will translate into
specific actions by citing the Department of Transport as an
example.
[Translation]
As the Minister of Transport said several times, the
transportation system in Canada is too intrusive, subsidies are
distorting trade and several parts of the system are in bad shape.
Following the program review, Transport Canada will no longer
own large parts of the system. It will no longer operate and
finance them. Instead, it will focus on its fundamental
responsibilities in terms of direction and regulation in order to
ensure the safety of the transportation system.
9616
[English]
Market discipline and business principles will be brought into
the operation of transportation services. Costs will be reduced,
overcapacity eliminated, regulations streamlined.
Another example is in the Department of Industry. The
minister has announced that the era of providing subsidies to big
business is ending. I am pleased to hear that the Reform Party
supports that initiative of our government.
The private sector is the engine of economic growth and job
creation. Nevertheless, the federal government will continue to
have a significant role in creating the climate for business to be
able to invest, innovate and compete for markets.
These are the types of sensible and meaningful improvements
that will result right across government as a result of program
review.
[Translation]
I would now like to draw the attention of members opposite to
another similar initiative taken by the minister to make the
federation more efficient by reducing overlap and duplication
between the various levels of government.
[English]
Members will recall that at the first ministers meeting in
December 1993 very shortly after our election, there was
agreement to forge ahead on tackling specific issues and areas of
shared responsibility or jurisdiction where overlap and
duplication could be greatly reduced or eliminated altogether.
Six months later, through a process of joint bilateral
agreements, the two territories and eight of the provinces with
one more coming on board signed action plans and set
timeframes for concluding their work to get rid of overlap and
duplication.
[Translation]
To really understand the type of improvements sought, let us
consider the situation faced by the pulp and paper mills. They
now have to deal with inspectors from the three levels of
government, federal, provincial and municipal. We have agreed
that, from now on, one inspector would be enough.
[English]
This is an example of the kind of sensible, meaningful
activities which will result from the more than 50 action plans
that have so far been signed between the federal government and
the provinces. This work will continue. There will be more
action plans in the months and years ahead as we continue to
find ways to improve the efficiency of the federation.
It is important to underline that the reduction of overlap and
duplication does not just result in savings. It also results in
something as or more important and that is less government
intervention on the individual and business and a more rational
understandable environment in which to operate. That is not
small change.
(1550)
In addition to these two initiatives, the Minister responsible
for Public Service Renewal has also looked at the role, function,
size and cost of more than 400 federal agencies, boards,
commissions and advisory bodies.
[Translation]
Ministers have been asked to review the various organizations
under their jurisdiction, in order to simplify the machinery of
government, by eliminating the organizations which have
become useless or inactive and by streamlining the others.
[English]
In undertaking this review of boards and commissions, there
were no set targets. Rather, it was intended to identify sensible
and practical changes to make government work better. I might
also say that has also been our approach to the public service:
not to set numerical targets and not to take the slash and burn
approach, but to say what makes sense to make this government
work better.
To return to the boards and commissions, the first phase of
this initiative is already before the House as Bill C-65,
legislation which will enable the government to eliminate or
significantly streamline 22 agencies and advisory bodies. By
doing this, 150 governor in council positions will be eliminated.
In very real terms these measures will save taxpayers about $1.5
million a year.
That is only one step in that process. The minister will be
returning to the House with a second omnibus bill which will
conclude the work. At that time hundreds of additional governor
in council positions will be eliminated at what is anticipated to
be a savings of approximately $10 million.
As the minister said in the House last week, the government
wants to ensure that federal agencies continue to be relevant,
that they are serving Canadians as effectively as possible and
also that sensible and practical actions are taken to eliminate
overlap and duplication and simplify government wherever
possible.
[Translation]
I have just described three impressive components of the
overall approach taken by the government towards fiscal
responsibility. I think it is important for members opposite to
understand these initiatives and agree that, as is the case with all
the measures taken by this government, these are thoughtful,
rational and well-considered decisions.
9617
[English]
Proposals for mindless, indiscriminate axing in spending do
not work in the modern context. Such proposals are simple
minded and damaging not just to the economy but to the people
of this country. Protecting the vulnerable is an essential function
of government and to this we are deeply committed.
Yet we must be fair to taxpayers. Fairness to taxpayers means
eliminating abuse, eliminating the careless use of public funds,
eliminating non-productive activities, reducing the size of
government where possible and providing government that is
not only affordable but answers to the real needs of citizens and
of the nation.
Mr. Speaker, I am sure you will concur with me that the range
of initiatives undertaken by the government meets the
objectives of fairness, eliminates wasteful spending and builds a
more co-operative approach to a better future for Canadians.
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Vegreville, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
member talked about the cuts proposed in governor in council
appointments and mentioned a figure with regard to that. It is
very interesting that Bill C-51, which was before the House
before Christmas, adds governor in council appointments and
Bill C-61, which just passed second reading yesterday, adds
governor in council appointments.
(1555 )
I would like to know if this figure the hon. member presented
was net of the new appointments that have been added or is this
more Liberal doublespeak?
Ms. Catterall: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his
question. It gives me an opportunity to say that the world does
not stay frozen in time and neither does this government.
Perhaps the hon. member wants to suggest there are no new
and emerging needs where this or any government needs the
wise advice of Canadians who bring special knowledge, special
skills, special expertise and wisdom to the operations and the
programs of the federal government. Or, where it makes sense,
to open up new ways in which we can be advised and counselled
by Canadians who are capable of keeping us informed and aware
of broader issues than those we may address in this House. We
welcome their contribution to the future of this country. At the
same time we do not want to continue carrying out functions and
making appointments simply for the sake of making
appointments.
As I have said, we have a multi-stage process for getting rid
of appointments which are no longer serving a purpose and
agencies which no longer make a valuable or important
contribution to the essential work of this government.
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, once
again, this member has brought up the issue of protecting the
vulnerable. I suggest that the Liberals are trying to protect the
vulnerable with fairy tales.
The difference between the Liberal approach and the Reform
approach is that the Reform pragmatic approach is to take the
necessary steps to ensure that we can protect those who are most
vulnerable in our society.
This Liberal government by design is going to borrow more
money in its lifetime to pay the interest on the money we have
already borrowed, more money in its lifetime factored for
inflation than we borrowed to fund the entire second world war.
How in the world are we going to have the money to protect the
most vulnerable?
The Liberals are simply trying to protect them
euphemistically or with fairy tales rather than practically and by
doing the things that need to be done to protect the vulnerable in
our society.
Ms. Catterall: Mr. Speaker, the Reform Party often says that
in generalities and yet proposes programs and program cuts that
would make victims and casualties of women, children, the
disabled, and seniors in this country. That is what its programs
would accomplish.
For the first time in 20 years, this government is going to
reverse that pattern which the member talked about of
increasing interest payments, increasing debt and increasing the
burden on the future. For the first time this country and this
House are going to see action instead of promises.
This country is not prepared to sacrifice on the altar of short
term economic need those who most need to have a stake in the
future of this country, those who most need the opportunity to
develop their skills and their talents and the ability to be fully
part of the Canadian economy and Canadian society.
Mr. Herb Grubel (Capilano-Howe Sound, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I have had several opportunities on the finance
committee and elsewhere to tell witnesses the truth about the
welfare program budget cuts that our party is recommending.
There is no truth whatsoever to the allegation that we would not
protect the truly needy in our society.
The OECD is a highly respected international organization of
which Canada is a full standing member and has to approve its
reports. It has said that Canada is an outstanding example of
excessive generosity in welfare programs.
(1600 )
We are not talking about hitting the poor in this world and it is
an untruth being told and repeated again and again here. We are
talking about retargeting all the excessive spending that is going
on. That is the truth. The rest is slandering.
9618
Mrs. Catterall: Mr. Speaker, when I hear members of the
Reform Party speak I sometimes wonder if they know any
people who are poor, if they know any people who are
vulnerable, if they know the women in my riding living in
subsidized housing, working for minimum wage, supporting
their families on welfare sometimes, trying very hard to raise
children decently on an income of less than $12,000 a year.
I know those people. I would be happy to take the hon.
member out to visit my riding to find out just how hard those
people are working and what they need to support their dreams
for the future and the dreams of their children.
It is also important to point out to this member and others in
the Reform Party the cost of poverty. Getting our debt and
deficit down does depend on ending poverty in this country.
Poverty is expensive. Poverty costs. One out of every five
children in this country is poor. That child is four times as likely
to end up seriously ill than the child who is not poor. That means
that one child simply because of poverty will cost the health care
system in this country more than the other four non-poor
children. We cannot get our debt and deficit under control unless
we get people out of poverty.
Poor children are four times more likely to drop out of school.
At the age of 15 they are out on the streets and five years later
they have never held a job, they are living in poverty, they are
perpetuating the cycle of poverty. That costs us money. When
children in poverty drop out of school we pay the price. We pay
the price in wasted lives and wasted productivity.
We cannot tackle the problem of the debt and deficit unless we
tackle the problem of poverty in this country which costs us all
every day.
Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I will be taking
the full period of time.
I have to start by addressing the last speaker and speakers
before this. Nowhere is there any fact saying that we are not
going to take care of the poorest of poor. We are talking about a
whole plan, having a plan. The economic management that the
member talks about, economic management that is going to add
$100 billion to the debt in the next three years, is not
management, it is suicide. That is going to hurt those poor and
that is what is going to lose these programs more than anything
else we might do.
It is like the cab driver said last night when I was in the cab.
He said: ``I have heard it all before. It doesn't matter what
happens in these elections. It doesn't matter because they are all
the same. They get there and they are not going to change a
thing. They don't have a plan. They are not dedicated. They
don't mean it. They just go and do the same thing''.
While we hear all this double talk and all this talk about the
poor and the tears roll down the eyes, they do not have a plan.
There is nothing there. There is nothing behind it. It is just all
more talk and I agree with that cab driver.
I heard another speaker say that these were simplistic
approaches. Voters want it simple once in a while. They want
somebody with a plan they can understand, not a bunch of legal
double talk, a bunch of on in the future some place we are going
to handle this problem of our debt and deficit. They want it done
now and they mean now, right now, and that is what we are here
talking about.
I come back to why I even came to this job. There are times we
all wonder why we are here. The reason is the government was
not listening. It was a top down kind of process that we had here.
There was spending and waste. All of us knew about it and all of
us were disgusted by the waste that we talked and heard about.
(1605)
It does not really matter, we thought, what party one elects
and I am coming to believe that. It does not matter whether it has
the PC tag or the Liberal tag. They are all so much the same.
We send good people from home and those good people all of
a sudden come back and tell us what the party says is best for us,
it is what the party wants us to do. We are so hung up on this
undemocratic party process in this place.
Probably the worst day since I have been here was February
22 last year. I felt like wearing a black arm band. We had a
finance minister who gave us a budget or whatever it was, but it
did not address anything that the people had been saying since
1984. It did not say anything about the debt and deficit, about
what our foreign creditors were telling us. It did not address
anything.
The government members said it did not have time, that it had
only been here for three months. It should have had that plan in
place long before the election was ever called.
We each had that sunken feeling on the 22nd and we said we
are not going to let that happen again. You are going to see our
alternate budget. You are going to see it before you see the
finance minister's budget. You are going to get a chance to
compare.
I challenge-
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): I want to remind
colleagues in the House to make all their interventions through
the Speaker. Basically if we are using the term ``you'' it is to the
Speaker and I do not think that is the intent. I ask members to
keep that in mind.
Mr. Mills (Red Deer): Mr. Speaker, what I challenge is that
the government, our Prime Minister and our finance minister go
9619
on national television with the leader of our party and our
finance critic and talk about and compare the two budgets, the
budget of the finance minister and the budget that we are going
to put out as an alternate. I challenge them to compare those in
front of the Canadian people. That is what has to be done.
Let us go back to some of the history behind our problem. I
have heard a lot here today. I have not heard a lot of people who
seem to really understand very much or certainly could not
communicate it to the people who really matter, the taxpayers.
In 1945 we had it pretty good. Europe was in shambles. Asia
was in shambles and we were able to grow. We had no
competition and we learned the good life. By 1965 we were well
into the social experiment programs that we now all feel are
threatened and are threatened because of the serious problem we
are in.
We allowed government to replace family. We allowed
government to replace individual initiative and we said
government will take care of each of us. We will lead this good
life. We will never have any problems.
What also happened then was that the other parts of the world
rebuilt and started to compete. As they started to compete we
had a cash shortfall. We had developed a system that we could no
longer afford and therefore we started to borrow.
We continued to borrow. Members know where that has taken
us today. We have a crisis. In 1984 we said we must change this
government. Right across this whole land everybody said we
have to change it. Except for a few of those sure seats, the
Liberals were literally annihilated.
The belief was that the $289 billion would be dealt with and it
would be dealt with now. By 1988 it was up over $390 billion
and we were told we did not have time, it was a worse mess than
we thought it was, et cetera. However, we were no longer
believers in that sort of analysis, and so the birth of our party.
(1610 )
In 1993 we had a $489 billion debt and we were told the
Liberals will come up with a plan, and so they did. From October
25, 1993 when the debt was $489 until the budget comes out this
month it is going to be $550 billion. We have added another $61
billion to our debt. That is totally unacceptable. The people of
Canada will not accept that. They are demanding that action be
taken.
It is not good enough to say we will just add another $100
billion and then we will plan to get it under control some time in
the future. That is not good enough. We have precipitated a
crisis which we are being told about. The dollar is a good
indicator. It was about 80 cents U.S. a year or so ago. Look
where it is today and where it is going. We know where the
interest rates were and where they are going today. Those are
simply symptoms and warnings that we had better take action
and it had better be soon.
The biggest threat to our social programs is from this debt and
that is why we must deal with it. We must passionately convince
the government that it must deal with it.
The double talk we have heard today, I am glad it was not from
the finance minister or people from the finance committee.
Hopefully they understand things better.
We are going to lose pensions, UIC, social programs and
education. All of those things are going to be threatened. Not
because of any party or because some members take the slash
and burn position. They learned that about a year ago and they
have not stopped saying it. We are going to lose those programs
because of the debt and those interest payments. Then what
happens?
There is foreign control. I think we should talk about that. We
should look at what just happened to Mexico. Mexico has lost its
sovereignty for probably 50 years into the future. Does Canada
want to lose its sovereignty? Does Canada want to give up its
control of water? We have to look at all of those things. Our
sovereignty is being threatened by that debt and deficit.
What do our good friends across the way propose? They have
floated trial balloons. They talked about raising gas prices 1.5
cents per litre. That should hit just about everyone, including
those poor families trying to earn a living. It is going to hit
everybody. That comes from the finance committee.
Taxing RRSPs, that is pretty good. We are encouraging people
to take care of themselves and all of a sudden we are going to tax
something that goes against this. Dental and medical plans,
surtaxes and surcharges on income. Changing the GST to a VAT.
Are we going to change that? How high is it going to go? A lot of
people predict it will go to 12 per cent. Maybe 15 per cent would
be a better number. That is going to hit everybody, not just the
rich we so often hear about.
What about a carbon tax? Give it any name you like, I do not
think it is dead yet. If any kind of unity is to be promoted in this
country it had better be put to rest once and for all.
What are the solutions? There has to be a light at the end of the
tunnel. There has to be. That cab driver we talked about has to
know there is a solution. He cannot simply say there is no hope, I
hate politicians, I hate politics, I have no use for them all. In a
couple of ridings only 30 per cent of people voted. That is a
disgrace. That is the frustration of people who are saying it does
not matter anymore, you are all the same, you are not dealing
with the issue. That is not fiscal management. That is no
management at all.
The money markets are telling us very clearly to get our act
together. They are telling us by the dollar. They are telling us by
interest rates. They are telling us to cut spending, do not raise
taxes, do whatever to encourage the country but do something.
9620
The public is telling us a lot also. Listen to the messages the
public is getting. On February 11 in the Vancouver Sun, a quote
from the revenue minister: ``Protest all you want, Canadians,
but you are not going to change the final look of the coming
federal budget''. They are saying that they will listen to what
the people are saying, but here is someone saying: ``Protest all
you want, Canadians. We are not going to change our minds.
We are not going to listen to you''.
(1615)
We might just ask the member from Transcona what message
the people gave him in Winnipeg the other day as they drove him
from the stage. What was the message yesterday? What was the
message in Toronto? What was the message in Vancouver? What
was the message in Halifax?
The message is for the government to get its act together and
cut spending. We hear: ``Yes, we are going to. Yes, we will''. We
have heard that before. We have heard that for years and years
and it has not happened. The public is saying that the
government should cut spending, stop listening to special
interest groups and stop waste.
I knocked on doors in some of the poorer sections of
Montreal, for the benefit of the member who was talking about
that, and the universal thing everybody said was: ``Get rid of the
Senate. Get rid of that waste. It is an embarrassment''. I should
have said the other place. They asked us to get rid of it or change
it because it is not working.
Another item was MPs' pensions. They asked us to have the
courage to lead from the top. They want us to do something and
not get stand around making promises. For 15 or 16 months we
have been talking about doing something. We cannot go after the
public of Canada without doing something here.
They are asking us to do something about the perks and the
GST the Liberals promised they would change. How about the
international travel that goes on in this place and the
parliamentary associations that are going on junkets every other
week, heading off all over the place and maybe taking their
wives for cost? That touches a nerve ending. Nobody wants to
talk about it because it is something we can get away with; it is
one of the perks because we have such low pay.
We could try to tell the poor people about whom the minister
was talking about the pay MPs receive. How about the eight or
nine levels of management versus those levels in a company?
Companies right sized long ago. Companies got down to two or
three levels of management. I challenge anybody here to go to
big corporations and ask them how much management they
have. They have two or three levels while this place has eight or
nine levels of management protecting themselves. They are not
going to be cut. A few at the top will go but they will not be cut
down to anything.
Let us look at the other waste that goes on here. All of us go
downstairs in the Confederation Building. Has anyone ever
wondered why we have a round of marble seven feet in the air in
the new renovations over there? Does anyone know how much
marble costs? Why is it there? It is there because the bureaucrats
are not use to trying to save any money.
A lot of waste goes on in this place. Let us talk about it.
Anything would be better than the kind of waste we have. That is
what taxpayers are demanding. They want us to get waste under
control. The public has lost confidence in the government and
politicians. It is saying that we should cut spending and have no
new taxes. That message is everywhere.
That message is not just in Canada. That message is in all
democratic countries around the world. They are sending the
same message. We can learn that lesson. There are lots of places
from where we can take examples. People are demanding
results. People have finally taken control of the situation.
What would happen if we had a government that would listen
and bring about those massive spending cuts that are essential
and eliminate the waste that is going on? We would have the
confidence of the people, of businesses and of international
investors. We would have jobs. We would have growth and the
economy would boom. There would be extra income, more
money coming in from taxation, and we would be able to start
dealing with the real problem, namely our huge debt.
(1620 )
Above all, to get the trust of the general public of Canada back
we must enact legislation, a taxpayer protection act that puts a
cap on government spending so that this can never happen again.
We can never let government do this to the Canadian people
again. We have had 30 years of this and it has to stop.
Let us examine what might happen in this situation. There has
been a lot of speculating on the other side so I will speculate for
a minute. Look at the old line parties first. Let us start with the
PCs. To examine the PCs there are three books that might help
us. I would suggest that Beyond the Law might be a place to start.
On the Take might be another interesting piece of reading.
Underground Nation by Diane Francis might be good reading
too for finding out what has happened because of extra taxes.
That pretty well takes care of the PCs. I guess last night
confirmed that.
What about the Liberals? The Liberals started this whole
thing. Of course they still feel good and are happy. They are
saying: ``Maybe we can grow our way out of this problem. It
should be fine. Hopefully we will be okay''.
9621
Then we have the NDP. Its socialist Utopia has not worked
any place in the world so we can dispel that.
We know the Reform Party must be different. We have a
situation wherein it is the people versus the elite. Who are the
elite? We have talked about the elite a lot before. It is the
national media. Certainly it is the old line political parties, the
bureaucrats at the top and in many cases big business and banks.
Those kinds of people are all part of the elite.
What are the people saying about all of this? They are saying:
``We won't take it any more. If you keep spending you are going
to pay''. The message should be loud and clear. The people's
power should be obvious to everyone here but it is not. The last
message was in the referendum. The elite to the very last person
said: ``Vote yes. It will be good for you''. However the people
said: ``No way''. The people found out about it. They worked on
it, got information and made their decision. They were not heard
that well, though.
In 1993 there was another message. We know what that
resulted in. What do we have to look at? The people are saying
reduce and the government is saying increase. On pensions the
people are saying eliminate and the government is saying
modify. On the Senate the people are saying abolish and the
government is saying ignore and promote. On RRSPs the people
are saying raise and promote and the government is saying:
``Maybe we will tax them''. On jobs the people are saying:
``More money should be in the hands of people'' and the
government is saying: ``We will have infrastructure and more
bureaucracy. The government can, after all, still take care of
you''.
In conclusion I quote from Terry Moore, a radio announcer in
Calgary:
We have had it, and you have got to get a handle on this and attack the debt
and deficit in Canada and quit playing political games with our future, our
children's future, our grandchildren's future and our great-grandchildren's
future-because if you don't pull it together, this country will go down the tube.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
listened with interest to the member's comments. It is fair to
summarize by indicating that members of the Reform Party will
continue to raise spectres, rumours, innuendo and tax revolts.
They will continue to say they are going to do many good things.
However, the important point is that Reform Party members
have been tinkering around the edges. They have ignored and
failed to explain to Canadians how they are going to deal with
their $15 billion cut in social programs. They have not
articulated a specific initiative by which they would deal with
social programs. They have not told Canadians the truth about
what they really have planned for Canada.
(1625)
We have a source for what Reform Party members plan. I want
to give an example. It is articulated in their minority report
included in the Standing Committee on Human Resources
Development report that was tabled last Monday. I refer the
House to their first three recommendations.
The first concerns the guaranteed income supplement in
which 40 per cent of seniors participate. They are
recommending increasing the age of eligibility. On old age
security they are saying: ``Eliminate old age security for seniors
who have above average incomes''. On the Canada pension plan
they are recommending raising the retirement age, raising the
age of eligibility.
It is fairly clear that the true agenda of members of the Reform
Party is slash and burn. If they do not believe our seniors
represent a significant portion of the poor in our country they
have lost touch with Canadians.
Mr. Mills (Red Deer): Mr. Speaker, if I were the finance
minister I would say to wait until next week, but I will try to
answer the question.
The member can wait until next week but he will see that those
in need have to be totally taken care of. People at the upper end
who do not need it are quite willing to accept their share of the
responsibility to get the country going. They are saying that as
long as it is equal and fair they will take those cuts. However the
people at the bottom will have to be taken care of. The most
needy can never be out on the streets, as the member would like
to portray. Next week he will see the exact details of what we are
talking about.
[Translation]
Mr. Jean Landry (Lotbinière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I listened
with great interest to my friend's presentation. I agree with him,
our financial situation is critical, but there are solutions
nevertheless.
A while ago, I heard him speak of the Progressive
Conservative Party which I believe is part of history. I think that
when you are really optimistic, whether you are a government
party, a person or a group, you look to the future. Therefore, we
must widen our horizons and determine what aspects of our
taxation system can be changed.
For example, since we are here to represent the population, I
think it is important that we propose solutions whenever we
criticize. I do believe that together we will succeed in
addressing the problem of the enormous deficit of our country.
[English]
Mr. Mills (Red Deer): Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member
for his question.
I agree with him 100 per cent that we should not be tinkering
around the edges and that we should look at some major reforms,
certainly a flat tax system, a new system of taxation that is much
9622
fairer than the present tax system with all its exemptions and
exceptions. This is something Canadians are asking for and the
House should be entertaining as soon as possible. It should be a
part of the exercise as we look to fix our finances.
[Translation]
Mr. Roger Pomerleau (Anjou-Rivière-des-Prairies,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, I also listened closely to the speech of the
hon. member. Like all the members who took the floor today-I
have been sitting here all day, although I never intervened-I
agree that the Canadian situation is very difficult right now.
I also think that the government has a tendency to study, to set
up committees, to ask for reports and, generally speaking, to
postpone any decision. For 20 years we have heard the same
speeches from the various ministers of finance. We could take
any of them and reissue them, they are all the same.
There are two opposition parties in the House. The Bloc
Quebecois proposes a very clear option: let us review
completely the Canadian taxation policy. We sincerely believe
that without a complete overhaul of taxation we are going
nowhere fast.
The Reform Party's option is to cut deeply where it really
matters, into social programs. Unlike my Liberal friends, I do
not believe that our Reform colleagues are fundamentally evil. I
think they have done a serious economic study of the situation.
(1630)
[English]
If the Reform and the Bloc parties do not do anything, Canada
is going to go bankrupt right away. We have to do something.
I would like to ask a question of my colleague on an economic
matter. Most people know that we want to make Quebec
sovereign and we seriously think that this will become true
within a few months from now.
Most Canadians actually believe in two assumptions
concerning Quebec. The first is we are a bunch of
troublemakers, politically speaking, because we are never
happy with what we get. Second, we receive much more money
from Canada than what we put in. A lot of people believe these
assumptions.
I would like to ask this question of my colleague. Does he not
think that a sovereign Quebec would be part of the solution for
Canada, depending of course that we take out of Canada our fair
share of the debts and assets? That is exactly what we intend to
do. Would this not be part of the solution for Canada?
Mr. Mills (Red Deer): Mr. Speaker, certainly we agree with a
lot of the things that were said.
More important, what I have learned from visiting Quebec a
number of times is that the problems in Quebec are the same as
the problems in Alberta or in any other part of Canada. We are
all the same. We are concerned about the debt and deficit. We are
concerned about crime. We are concerned about all of the same
things. We are the same. That is the first myth that we have to
dispel, that there is any difference between us because there is
not.
The people in my part of the country do not hate the people of
Quebec. The people in Quebec certainly do not hate the people
of Alberta. We need to dispel these myths.
Economically, I believe firmly that as members of the G-7, in
negotiating world trade as we are now actively doing, that the
bigger the unit the better we are going to be economically.
I hope that the people of Quebec look at the big picture. We
are going to be a trading unit of the Americas. I have said that in
this House a lot of times. North and South America together are
a trading unit. The smaller the unit the more difficult it will be
balancing our budgets and taking care of our people.
We have to look at the big picture. The big picture says that
the EU is going to get common currency and is going to come
together more and more, that the seven tigers of the Orient are
going to come together more and more and that the Americas are
going to come together more and more. Rather than thinking of
little units we should be thinking about bigger units. That is
really the success of this country. This is the best country in the
world and we need to save it with Quebec.
Mrs. Jane Stewart (Brant, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like
to say that it is a pleasure to participate in the debate on the
motion tabled by the hon. member for Capilano-Howe Sound.
As a member of the Standing Committee on Finance the items
that are included in the member's motion have been front and
centre on my personal agenda for well over a year. There is a
reason for that. The reason is that our government understands
and takes very seriously the fiscal circumstances that face this
nation. We are committed to working responsibly to manage the
deficit and the debt and to responding to the needs and the
interests of Canadians.
We are doing that in a very dynamic way. It is that process that
I would like to refer to in my comments here this afternoon.
About a year ago the Minister of Finance came to us in the
House and invited us all to participate in the first ever prebudget
debate. He invited us as members to bring the concerns, the
issues, the strategy, the direction of our constituents, Canadians,
to this House of Commons and share them with him.
9623
That process worked very well. That debate was very
energized. It was informative. I know that the minister took a
lot away from that day in the House and included it in his
subsequent budget, our first budget as a government, that I
would remind the House included a number of things. It
included issues of tax fairness where we got rid of the $100,000
capital gains exemption. More important and more particular,
for every dollar that we raised in revenues there were $5 saved
in spending cuts, a five to one ratio.
(1635)
The process has continued in a very dynamic way. In October
1994 the Minister of Finance came to the Standing Committee
on Finance and presented a very articulate and clear
understanding of his view of the economic forecast for our
nation. At the same time, he talked about the fiscal
circumstances that we faced then and face right now. He
enjoined the members of the committee to take this information
and share it in detail with Canadians and to begin the first ever
prebudget consultations.
That consultation process started here in Ottawa with a panel
of experts from the economy, from banking, from the social
sector, from the NGOs. We sat around the table and talked about
the economic assumptions in the minister's papers. We talked
about the strategies of spending cuts versus revenue measures.
We talked about the spending cuts that might be appropriate,
those that would be inappropriate, the tax measures that might
be appropriate and those that might be inappropriate.
From there and armed with a lot of information, the
committee members fanned out across the nation. We talked to
hundreds of Canadians. We went to communities like Lunenburg
and Hamilton. In Hamilton I had the great fortune to chair the
session.
We did something a little different. Rather than just hear
individual witnesses, we encouraged Canadians as individuals
to come to sit with us around the table. They took a very short
time, two, three minutes, to position their particular areas of
interest, their particular concerns. Some of these people came
with presentations from groups. Some came merely as
individuals interested in the process.
We sat together and we encouraged and invited them to talk
with each other, to do their best to build consensus, to try to find
and agree on the things that Canadians say we need to do to deal
with the fiscal situation that we face.
As this process continued and coincident with it, members
and colleagues of mine went back to their ridings and had town
hall meetings with their own constituents, asking the same
questions. Tell us about the assumptions. Tell us about spending
cuts versus revenue measures. Members brought that data back
to the minister who I know will read them and respond probably
after the budget when he can not only comment on their
suggestions but on his thinking around where he agreed and
where he made some different choices.
I had one of these meetings. It is my second annual meeting
and what I found in my riding was very interesting. Last year, I
had 20 people out to my forum. It was a very interesting and
informative night but only 20 people were there.
This year there were over 100 people. The message to me
from my constituents was that they appreciated the process the
government was taking. They believed that the government is
listening to them, that it will take what they are saying and deal
with it to build a consensus, a balanced strategy to help the
country restore itself to fiscal stability.
The other thing that proved to me that this was so was that the
whole thing was done without cost. The room was donated. The
microphone system was donated. The coffee and donuts were
donated. The community said: ``This is important to us. This is
significant for us. We believe in this process''.
We did not have to charge Canadians $1 a shot to phone in on
the 1-900 number. People were invited to come and share free of
charge their concerns and their interests.
(1640)
Over the course of the last five months we have been engaging
Canadians in a very participatory and involved strategy. It
makes a difference. Canadians want to be a part of this. They
want to be heard.
What are the messages we have heard over the last while?
Very clearly we found consensus that we must deal with the
deficit and the debt. There is no question. Second, there is
general agreement that it is far preferable to focus on the
spending side and to reduce spending than it is to do a lot on the
revenue measures side.
When I gave a speech in my riding last week I said to my
constituents, ``We are listening. We hear you. We understand the
importance of spending cuts. But please understand what you
are saying. You may think that your tax dollars are being burned
in the fireplace and going up in smoke. Yes, there are places
where we have to do a better job, where we have to cut back and
where we have to be more efficient, but there are many programs
that are helping Canadians''. Those programs are helping
groups in my community. They may be cut. As a result we have
to be prepared to be compassionate.
With that in mind I would like to turn to some of the
recommendations which were made by the standing committee.
The first recommendation, which I strongly agree with, is that
9624
we must deal with the issue of MPs' pensions. I look forward to
the President of the Treasury Board presenting that legislation,
sooner rather than later, because I believe that as we members
have to show as these spending cuts come into effect-and they
are going to be an impact-that we too are part of the process.
The other thing which we recommended as part of the
committee report was that we must start with government
operations. Government must take the responsibility to look at
itself, improve its efficiencies, improve the quality of the
programming that we are providing to Canadians and do it less
expensively. We have to understand there are going to be cuts in
the public service. People are going to be affected.
I have been involved in downsizing programs in the private
sector. There are good ones and there are bad ones. The ones that
work recognize that the people who are affected really have
nothing to do with the growth in the business or in the
government. They are not guilty; however, they are the ones who
will have to make changes.
I know that the Canadian taxpayer as a good employer will
want to provide to the people who are leaving packages which
allow them to leave with respect and dignity. These packages
will cost money. It would be totally inappropriate for me to say
that there can be no new spending in this budget. We have to
recognize that for longer term gains we have to have spending in
the short term to recognize the good work that our public
servants have done. Certainly in my riding I have been well
supported by the correctional people, by my human resources
development people and by Industry Canada, those in the
regional office, and I thank them. We must deal with that with
compassion.
As we talk about the strategy of spending cuts versus tax
measures, I would like to point out that in the jurisdictions that
we hold up as the best jurisdictions for spending control-and I
am thinking of Alberta as one-there have been revenue
measures. In Alberta the increase was in medical premiums of
about 50 per cent. There were other increases in fees and in
licences.
I know that the hon. member for Capilano-Howe Sound
talked once in an intervention about loopholes. He said, ``Those
are taxes. They collect money. If it looks like a tax and it collects
money like a tax, it is a tax''. These fees and these revenue
measures could be determined or viewed as taxes.
My point is that in jurisdictions where they are managing their
deficit and debt there are revenue initiatives which go along
with and are part and parcel with the spending cuts.
When we look at these messages we now consider what it is
that the minister is going to do in terms of his next budget; the
action that we will see as a response to this consultation and
these messages. I do not know what he is going to have in his
budget. He has been very good and done a good job as a minister
in keeping those things close to his vest, as he should.
(1645)
The thing I need to point out, which has been pointed out on a
number of occasions in this House today, is that we have to, as I
believe the minister will, deal with this very difficult agenda
with compassion, generosity, fairness and balance.
Strangely enough those words are clearly absent from the
member's motion. There is never a reference to how it would be
done. Perhaps that in itself is the difference between the Liberal
Party and the Reform Party. While Reform members protest that
they will not hurt anyone, they never use words like fairness,
balance and compassion. Those are real in our society and are
things which I am committed to and which I believe in.
In closing I would like to say that experiencing the
cross-country discussions, talking to Canadians, and hearing
their perspectives was tremendously important for me to
understand the differences that exist across this vast nation.
The last budget was brutal in Atlantic Canada. Communities
that lost their defence installations were hit very hard. It is my
expectation that in the next budget some of the rest of us may
start to feel that pinch. It is going to be a challenge for us as a
government to continue in a positive fashion to make sure
Canadians do not go without, but that we do manage things more
effectively and efficiently, that we recognize where government
can play a role and where other partners in society can fill the
void or maybe take over.
These are challenges that will make it very interesting for us
over the course of the rest of our mandate. I very definitely
believe and I would encourage the Minister of Finance to
continue his dynamic and evolving process in this important
area.
I have to make reference to one particular event that
happened. Over the course of our discussions many Canadians
said: ``You know, these are tough times and I really do not want
more taxes, but by golly, this country is important to me. We
have to make sure it stays together. If there is a way of me
providing funds that will go directly to maintaining our country,
to reducing the deficit, I would be willing to participate''.
Do not get me wrong. I would never suggest this is a strategy
that will help us out of our problem. What made it important to
me was the fact that I received a cheque from one of my
constituents made out to the ``save Canada and deficit reduction
fund''. Interestingly, I discovered there is an account this money
could be sent to. I have sent it on and expect he will receive
recognition for his contribution.
9625
The message to me is that Canadians do feel passionately
about this country. They do want things to be better. They do
believe this government through balance, fairness and equity
has a plan that will work.
I look forward to the minister's budget. I have every
confidence that he is listening to the Canadian people and will
respond to their needs and to the needs of others who have an
influence on our domestic economy. With that I close and thank
the member for providing us with the opportunity today to talk
about this very important subject.
Mr. Jim Silye (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I would
like to thank the member for her speech, although I basically
disagree with her fundamental premise. I would like to make a
comment and have her respond.
Having worked with her on the Standing Committee on
Finance for a while, I know she is sincere in looking for
solutions. As an individual who obviously by her considered
remarks is very intelligent, I would like to offer a suggestion as
to how to find that solution.
(1650)
A lot of people know that if you define the right problem or if
the problem is defined correctly, you now have at least 50 or 60
per cent of the solution because that is where you will focus your
efforts.
I would present the case that this government has not
identified the right problem. We have a problem in this country
with the deficit, debt and the interest costs to service this debt. It
is the debt that is causing the high interest costs and it is the high
interest costs that is the number one problem in this country.
Therefore the deficit is part of it because it contributes to the
debt which increases the interest.
I will go very slowly. There are three parts to it: debt, interest
and deficit. The government says it is the deficit that is the
problem, that if we reduce the deficit, we will solve the problem.
Wrong.
At the end of three or four years, this government's program
will have added $90 to $100 billion to the debt which then would
make the interest costs rise regardless of this 3 per cent of GDP.
That is what everybody is saying in the world economy. That is
why they are concerned about the toughness of the cuts
necessary. It is adding to the problem.
What this government is doing is adding to the problem,
thinking it is solving it by defining the wrong problem. That is
why it is paramount that we get to a zero deficit so that we do not
keep adding to the debt. It is the interest cost that is going to hurt
those very people who the government is concerned about, the
very people the government wants to help. The government will
raise taxes to help and it will hurt the economy even more.
I am saying if we identify the interest costs to service the debt
as the problem that then we will come up with different solutions
and more of the solutions that the Reform Party is putting forth.
I would like the member to make a comment on that, please.
Mrs. Stewart (Brant): Mr. Speaker, I have enjoyed working
with the hon. member on the finance committee.
He points to a very important matter and I referenced it in
some of my last comments. Not only do we have to understand
and look at the things that Canadians need, but we have to
unfortunately look outside our nation to the other people who
have an influence on our current situation. What we find is that
if the foreign markets are comfortable with us, if they are
confident that what we say is what we mean and it is what we are
going to do, then they back off and leave us alone a little.
We have worked very hard to indicate very clearly to the
outside world that we are committed to price stability. Thank
goodness we have been able to maintain inflation at very low
and sometimes negative rates. That helps us in dealing with
outside responsibility.
The other thing we have to do is be absolutely clear on what
our strategy is. We have been. Our strategy has been to say that
we will get the deficit to GDP ratio down to 3 per cent
come-excuse my French but the minister said it-hell or high
water.
If the minister can confirm that and make sure that is our
strategy and that we do not waiver from it, the confidence it
creates outside the nation is extremely helpful to us. That is
because it has been difficult for us to have the best economic
growth in the world, to have inflation managed efficiently, to
have unemployment reduced significantly.
I expect after the implementation of our next budget it will
again be clear to the markets that we are committed to this, that
we mean what we say and that we will do what we say we are
going to do.
Mr. Herb Grubel (Capilano-Howe Sound, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I appreciate the hon. member's speech. It was full of
compassion. She also argued that she had a monopoly on
compassion, that the Reform Party had no compassion whatever.
I have been in this business of arguing over social and
economic policies for over 30 years. We agreed a long time ago
that discussions over who is more compassionate will lead
nowhere. I assert herewith that I am more compassionate than
that member and every member of the Liberal Party.
The issue ought to be not who is more compassionate, but
what is a rational solution to the problem so that we can give real
expression to our compassion. That is the issue. This is rhetoric
which leads nowhere. This country is going down the drain and
we have to have practical solutions to the problems we face.
9626
(1655)
I also would like to make a brief comment on the member's
description of the consultation process. I sat through more hours
of this than I ever want to think about and travelled more miles
than I would like to.
Most of the time I found that the witnesses said: ``I do not
know anything about the budget making process. That is your
business, but let me take the next 20 minutes and tell you why
the money I have been getting from the government is the best
way the money could be spent and why you must never touch my
program''. Others had been coached by the intellectual and
political left and had patent solutions that were obvious
demagoguery from lowering the interest rate, to taxing the rich,
taxing capital.
The Globe and Mail had an editorial saying that this process
was dividing the country into hostile camps. I have not got the
same impression, that this was a fruitful exercise in the way in
which the opposite member was talking about.
Mrs. Stewart (Brant): With regard to the initial comment I
would say that perhaps the member doth protest too much.
He is saying that he is compassionate and I am sure he is. I
still stand and say nowhere in the motion doe I see and never do I
hear the words fairness, balance and equality. I am sorry but
without those words I do not know how anyone can pretend to be
compassionate.
As far as the process goes, perhaps compassion has something
to do there as well. Quite frankly to hear the message that
Canadians are giving, you have to listen. You have to be patient.
You have to recognize that the venue is not one they are
particularly familiar with.
Yes, the hon. member is right. There are many people who
said: ``By golly, cut the deficit and look after the debt but do not
touch me''. I do not necessarily blame those people because they
have only had one year of experience with us. They may still be
thinking back to the old government, the government they could
not trust and they had to say: ``Do not touch me, because I do not
trust you for not touching me''. We are a little different from
that. We do listen.
I suspect the next time we have these prebudget consultations
which will be next year, we will hear a lot less of that. We will be
better at the process. Canadians will be better prepared to be
involved and understand the role that they can and must play.
I think the process was wonderful. It is a step in the right
direction. It is an opportunity to give Canadians the governance
back to them, to let them be part of this very important thing we
call governing.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the intervention by the member while eloquent reminds me of a
song from ``My Fair Lady'' that says ``words, words, words, I
am so sick of words''.
Just talking about equity and compassion and fairness is all
very nice, but saying it does not make it so. These words keep
rolling off the tongues of members opposite as if they have a
corner on knowing of compassion and fairness and equity.
The Liberals have no plan to present the people of this
country. In the short time they have been in office they have run
up our interest obligation almost $2 billion. Every year forever
because of their overspending we will have to pay almost $2
billion more in interest, just for one year. That is $2 billion that
has been taken away from the poor people of this country, the
people who need help, the services of this country.
Yet they are the ones who talk about giving fairness and equity
when they are the ones taking the money and using it for interest
because they cannot control their spending. It is also a
government that has yet to stand up and give a plan to the people
of this country to break the gold plated pension plans that they
are getting. Where is the fairness in that?
(1700)
Where is the fairness from a member talking about fairness,
taking a pension that no other Canadian can hope to get? I ask
this member to show the kind of fairness that she-
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): On a point of order, the
hon. parliamentary secretary.
Mr. Walker: Mr. Speaker, I know that we are generally pretty
generous with each other in the House but there is an obligation
with members to be careful in the way they insinuate such things
as people receiving pensions when they are sitting in the House.
Mr. Speaker, I would like you to actively encourage people to
follow the public record more carefully.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): With the greatest of
respect to the member, that is not a point of order. I will return to
the member for Calgary North. There are a few minutes left in
the intervention of the member for Brant. Has the member for
Calgary North concluded?
Mrs. Ablonczy: Yes, Mr. Speaker.
Mrs. Stewart (Brant): Mr. Speaker, I will respond quickly to
the hon. member and say wait for the budget.
Mr. Elwin Hermanson (Kindersley-Lloydminster, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, mine is more of a complaint than a question.
The hon. member said ``pardon my French'' and then went on
to make some expression about ``hell and high water'' which I
9627
think was rather derogatory and indicates that the French
language is used in a derogatory way.
I wonder if she might withdraw that statement.
Mrs. Stewart (Brant): Mr. Speaker, I sincerely thank my
colleague. I would be glad to have that removed from the record.
It was an inappropriate comment. I appreciate that being drawn
to my attention.
[Translation]
Mr. Nic Leblanc (Longueuil, BQ): Mr. Speaker, this
afternoon, I am happy to speak to the motion presented by the
Reform Party which is supposed to be trying to provide the
finance minister with some solutions, answers, and ideas on how
to cut government spending and shift the fiscal burden.
Of course, I suppose that, by the very nature of its name, the
Reform Party has set out to reform Canadian institutions. This is
the reason why it is called the Reform Party. Before finding
solutions to all of Canada's financial ills, one should find their
causes.
I am going to give a brief background, starting in 1970, when
Mr. Trudeau's Liberals were in office. I remember well that in
early 1970, I believe it was in 1969, the federal government had
a budget surplus. One must assume that the Liberal Party was
not happy with the situation and that, with characteristic
generosity, it found that Canada was not progressing fast enough
on the economic and job creation front. In 1972, the deficit
really started building up with Mr. Turner and under Mr.
Trudeau.
The then Liberal government decided that the only way to
create jobs and to have a decent standard of living was for the
federal government to interfere in just about every area. So it
started borrowing money and the deficit started growing. In
1972, 1973 and 1974, the deficit was respectively $5 billion, $10
billion, $15 billion and then $20 billion. It kept on growing well
into the 1980s. In 1972, 1980, and especially 1984, we had huge
deficits.
From 1972 to 1980, the government used borrowed money to
create an artificial economy. It borrowed in order to pour large
amounts of money into our society, which resulted in the
economy becoming completely artificial. It was not a normal,
natural economy. It was borrowed money that was injected into
our society so that people could spend, which in turn led to job
creation, but all that job creation was artificial.
(1705)
Spending borrowed money created an artificial economy.
This overheating of the economy generated inflation, which
lasted several years. Members will recall that in the years
1975-1976, the annual inflation rate varied between 6, 7, 8, 10
and 11 per cent. Such high inflation was not normal. But instead
of cutting expenditures at that time, the government kept
borrowing, which continued to create this overheating of the
economy.
What solution was available to the governor of the Bank of
Canada? He had only one solution, as he said himself, and that
was to raise interest rates. And the government, as ignorant then
as it is today, continued to borrow money, thereby creating
inflation.
So, in 1980, interest rates went up as high as 20 per cent. It
ruined a large percentage of small and medium size businesses
in Quebec. It created hardship and unemployment. It created
impossible situations. People were discouraged. People lost
hope, particularly in Quebec where there are a lot of small and
medium size businesses.
The result, in 1980, was a horrible economic disaster. The
government, which had not found a solution, tried to correct its
mistakes by borrowing even more, putting in place programs to
save the economy. It kept injecting money into our society to try
and protect the poor, and it was right. Having created an
economic disaster, it had to do whatever it could, so it then
injected, between 1980 and 1984, some $100 billion in borrowed
funds to try to save the economy and avoid a crisis like the one of
the 1930s. So more money was injected to help people who the
government had just put out of work by its sky high interest
rates. So much for the federal government.
In 1984, when I was with the Conservative party which was
elected, the federal government had tallied up an accumulated
debt of $175 billion. It had completely lost control over its
spending. Revenues were of about $70 billion and expenditures
of about $110 billion, and at the time Mr. Lalonde had predicted
a deficit of some $39 billion for 1983-84; the largest deficit in
Canada's history. People were saying, ``We are bankrupt. It
makes no sense. We have lost control over spending in Canada''.
When I hear members of the Reform Party refer to this today,
they might do well to remember that this is nothing new; this
federal system does not work, it no longer works, it is a big
mess.
Returning to 1984, the deficit was $38 or $39 billion. We had
completely lost control over spending. On 4 September 1984,
the Conservative government took office declaring, ``We have
to get out our axe. We have to make cuts''.
At that time, the Conservative Party was similar to the Reform
Party in terms of its culture and habits. It had more or less the
same policies. It was a party pretty much of the right. People
said that it would clean things up, that it was made up of people
with a sense of responsibility. They said the Liberals had made a
mess in the previous 20 years and that the Conservatives would
put a stop to things and fix Canada up.
9628
Well, it was very difficult for the Conservatives, because the
debt was extremely high. The Liberals had made a lot of long
term commitments. It was therefore very difficult for the
Conservatives to cut.
(1710)
Nevertheless, the economy grew between 3 and 5 per cent
from 1984 to 1988. It would have been very easy to cut
expenditures by $5, $10 or $15 billion a year, and we would have
had economic growth at the rate of 2 per cent, probably, instead
of 4 to 5 per cent. This would have been a normal rate of growth.
The economy would have been sound and natural, not artificial.
Public finances would have been put in order.
However, the federal system does not work this way. The
federal system is governments in power, which want to show
their electors-and I have seen it, I have been there-that
expenditures cannot be cut, because people had to be shown that
the federal government was useful and necessary. Money just
had to be spent to prove that the government was indispensable,
that federalism was alive, and that, without federalism, we could
not function and exist as a country, without federal spending. A
government always has to justify itself to the people and it
generally does so by its spending.
If the people do not get anything, they believe the government
is useless. So, what is needed is a government sufficiently strong
to say what its role is and what the role of the provinces in
various sectors is.
But no! Because the federal government had the power to
spend, it continued to borrow, continued to spend in order to
prove to Canadians that federalism was the solution, and that
was the only way to justify federalism's existence.
Therefore, by 1990, we were faced with the same problem. We
had to raise interest rates because the Conservatives did not cut
spending enough and set off inflation themselves and we were
back at square one. In 1990, interest rates were increased to
cause a recession. Intelligent, is it not? What a smart
government. We created the problem ourselves and we
aggravate the situation by saying: ``We created inflation
ourselves so, now, we will increase interest rates to slow the
economy and create a recession''.
But this time, people were not deceived. A short time before,
they had just lived through a terrible recession. And people
stopped trusting the federal government. They still mistrust the
federal government. The recession has lingered since 1990. It is
now 1995. People have lost faith in the federal government,
have lost faith in the future and have lost all hope. There are
more and more family problems, young people are becoming
more and more desperate, they have no hope for the future
because over the past 25 years the federal government has not
learned how to assume its responsibilities in order to prove that
it is indispensable.
And it was Trudeau's policy, that of the strong central
governments of the Liberals of today and of the past, which has
led Canada to bankruptcy. Canada is bankrupt, pure and simple.
Thus, now that we know what we did wrong in the past, other
problems have emerged, of course.
I was forgetting another problem: that, in this Canadian
system, we have a structure designed to administer perhaps
some 300 to 400 million people and there are now 28 or 29
million people in Canada. We have 11 political powers, 11
governments. There is a socialist government, an NDP
government, in Ontario; there used to be a Liberal government
in Quebec; there was a Conservative, then a Liberal government
in Ottawa, with contradictory policies in most cases, so that the
system cannot work.
(1715)
At any one time, there is a government getting ready for an
election. Since there are also Liberals in Ontario, the Liberal
government in Ottawa tries not to hurt its Liberal colleagues in
Ontario and vice versa. This means that the federal government
never takes action, never does the right thing, never acts
rationally, so that the country cannot function.
Let us stop putting our heads in the sand and believing that
Canada is the country with the highest standard of living in the
world. Such a claim is ridiculous and deceives people. Canada is
now considered to be a third-world country in terms of its debt.
We are now considered to be at the same level as the third
world, but we still call Canada a rich country. I thought that the
way to evaluate a business is to look at its assets and liabilities.
Canada is now considered a third-world country in terms of its
debt. Let us stop putting our heads in the sand and look reality in
the face.
That is why we in Quebec think that extensive
decentralization is the key to saving Quebec and even Canada.
Canada stands at the edge of the abyss but can be saved through
extensive decentralization. We started to talk about it with the
Meech Lake Accord, we said that we had to decentralize, we said
the same thing in Charlottetown, and Canadians said no.
Canada's future lies in small sovereign countries.
We in Quebec want to achieve sovereignty because we believe
that with a single government and a smaller country, we will be
better able to succeed. It is easy to understand. We are saying
that in a small country with only one level of government, that
government, the universities, as well as business and union
people can arrive at solutions together. We will be able to set a
joint economic and social policy for the mid and the long term.
There will only be one government, instead of 11 different
ones constantly fighting and implementing conflicting policies.
We will work in harmony. We feel it is the only way to get out of
this mess. As Quebecers, we do not want to sink with the rest of a
9629
country, which has been mismanaged for a quarter of a century
and is now bankrupt. I am not exaggerating when I say that we
are bankrupt; I am merely telling the truth.
The Reform member who spoke earlier was quite right when
he said that, in Canada, the accumulated debt stands at $1.2
billion. That figure includes the debts incurred by the federal,
provincial and municipal levels of government, as well as by
private companies. We are currently paying $100 million per
day in interest to foreign creditors.
Surely we must have borrowed enough money if, every day,
$100 million leave the country to pay the interest on foreign
loans. We could do a lot with that money. Why is that? It is
because the federalist structure did not allow us to manage the
country in a way that would have been beneficial to everyone.
Consequently, we are struggling with this serious problem. As
Quebecers, as members of a nation speaking the same language,
sovereignty is the only option. Our culture is different from that
of the rest of the country, whether we are talking about financial
institutions, artists or creators. We are simply different. As a
small country, if we work together, we will be able to have our
own legislation, collect our own taxes, spend according to our
priorities, and we will undoubtedly be better off. It is with that in
mind that we embark upon our plan for a sovereign Quebec. We
do not have anything against anglophones, Ukrainians, Italians
or Jews. We do not have a grudge against anybody. All we want
is to survive. We just want to keep at least a decent standard of
living, which we will lose if we stay within the Canadian
Confederation. It is with that in mind that we intend to embark
upon our plan for a sovereign Quebec.
(1720)
The future belongs to small countries. We will negotiate and
we will succeed. I can guarantee Quebecers that even the hon.
member from Quebec, on the other side, knows I am right and
agrees with what I have just said. But, unfortunately, he will not
accept this daily reality.
What I say today does not all come from me. In the study
which was carried out by the Bélanger-Campeau Commission,
in 1992, experts clearly said that there was only one solution,
that is, that Quebec must recover the great majority of its
powers. If not, it will have to become sovereign or risk losing its
standard of living and becoming poorer and poorer. Since the
rest of Canada said no, this leaves us with only one alternative.
In matters of public finance, changes of all sorts are no use.
There is only one alternative for Quebec, and for the rest of
Canada, that is, to have a sovereign Quebec, an economic
association open to the world. This is the only way we will save
Canada and Quebec.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for this opportunity to speak this
afternoon. I am convinced that some federalists from Quebec,
on the other side, have understood some of the matters I have
discussed this afternoon.
[English]
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Vegreville, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I have a
couple of comments and then a question for the hon. member
who has just spoken.
The hon. member gave a very good history of government
incompetence in the terms of fiscal mismanagement over the
past 25 years. He has proven to be very accurate in that regard.
Certainly some members of the cabinet from the governing
party have played an important role over this time period
including the Prime Minister who was finance minister in a
former Liberal government.
The member also said that it is this fiscal mismanagement and
the financial condition of Canada that would drive Quebec out of
this country and is leading Quebec out of this country if the
referendum is successful.
The hon. member said that under these conditions of financial
mismanagement the federal system in Canada does not work as
it is now. I absolutely agree with that. The federal system in
Canada does not work as it is now. I would like to ask the
member a question. I am going to put some ``ifs'' into the
question.
If governments over the past 30 years had been more fiscally
responsible, if the federal government had left the powers that
rightly belong to the provinces under the Canadian Constitution
in the hands of the provinces, and if each province were given
control over language and culture, would this member be sitting
as a separatist in this Parliament? If those conditions had
happened, would he be sitting in this government trying to lead
Quebec to become a separate country? I am asking the member
to look back.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Before I ask the member
for Longueuil to reply, the pages have reminded me that I have
been delinquent.
(1725)
It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the
House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of
adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for
Bourassa-immigration; the hon. member for Yukon-violence
against women.
[Translation]
Mr. Leblanc (Longueuil): Mr. Speaker, I am glad to be asked
this question. The member said there were several conditions.
Yes, of course, there were several conditions. However, I want to
point out to the Reform member that we have been working hard
9630
for 10 years and, personally, when I was a member of the
Progressive Conservative Party, I worked hard to get approval
for the Meech Lake Agreement.
I can tell you that we worked for two and even three years,
because it took three years, a lot of discussion and efforts, to get
this agreement approved. Let me remind Reform members that
we spent almost $500 million. The Canadian government spent
almost $500 million to try to explain how this country could be
managed. The overall process, the ads, the whole thing cost
almost $500 million and took several years. In the end, the
federal government and English Canada did not want any
changes.
So, do not say we did not try. We did and we spent a lot of
money we did not even have. We borrowed to try and get
approval for this agreement and it was rejected. What else can I
say, we did everything possible. Mr. Mulroney put all his heart
into trying to renew Canada, but he failed. Maybe the Reform
Party will succeed, I do not know, but I have lost faith. Any way,
I can tell you that we tried our best, but we failed.
Do not try to convince me that I made a mistake in becoming a
sovereignist member in this House. From an economic
standpoint, it is a matter of life and death. I believe, and I will
repeat it, that the only solution for Quebec is to become a
sovereign state, to collect its own taxes, to make its own laws, to
sign its own treaties and to have an open economic association
with the rest of Canada, just as we have today. If Quebec
continues to do business with the rest of Canada after it achieves
sovereignty, there is not one Canadian that will see a difference.
People from Montreal will continue to go to Toronto to do
business, and people from Toronto will continue to come to
Montreal just as they do now.
It will not change a thing. The only difference is that we will
have only one government, we will have only one set of laws, we
will collect our own taxes, we will spend according to our own
priorities and we will make progress. And the rest of Canada
will also benefit from that because a strong Quebec will share its
wealth with the rest of Canada and help Canadians to continue to
live well. We will stay good friends.
I can assure you that I will continue to ski in Whistler and I
will feel very good about it. I have no problem with that. It is in
that sense that we will succeed in helping the rest of Canada to
survive economically so that it does not become a kind of third
world country, as we already are in terms of our debt.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): It being 5.30 p.m.,
pursuant to Standing Order 81, proceedings on the motion have
expired.
The House resumed from February 9 consideration of the
motion.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): It being 5.30 p.m.,
pursuant to an order made Thursday, February 9, the House will
now proceed to the taking of the deferred division on Motion
No. 20 under government business.
Call in the members.
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
(Division No. 158)
YEAS
Members
Adams
Alcock
Anderson
Arseneault
Assad
Assadourian
Asselin
Augustine
Axworthy (Winnipeg South Centre)
Baker
Bakopanos
Barnes
Beaumier
Bellehumeur
Bellemare
Bernier (Beauce)
Bethel
Bevilacqua
Blondin-Andrew
Bodnar
Bonin
Boudria
Brien
Brown (Oakville-Milton)
Brushett
Bryden
Bélair
Bélisle
Caccia
Calder
Campbell
Caron
Catterall
Chamberlain
Chan
Clancy
Cohen
Collenette
Collins
Copps
Cowling
Culbert
Dalphond-Guiral
Daviault
Deshaies
DeVillers
Dhaliwal
Dingwall
Discepola
Dromisky
Dubé
Duceppe
Duhamel
Dupuy
Eggleton
English
Fewchuk
Fillion
Finestone
Finlay
Flis
Fry
Gagliano
Gagnon (Bonaventure-Îles-de-la-Madeleine)
Gallaway
Gauthier (Roberval)
Gerrard
Godfrey
Godin
Goodale
Graham
Gray (Windsor West)
Grose
Guarnieri
Harb
Harvard
Hopkins
Hubbard
Ianno
Iftody
Jackson
Jacob
Jordan
Karygiannis
Kirkby
Knutson
Lalonde
Landry
Langlois
Lastewka
Laurin
Lavigne (Verdun-Saint-Paul)
Lebel
LeBlanc (Cape/Cap Breton Highlands-Canso)
Leblanc (Longueuil)
Lee
Lincoln
MacAulay
MacDonald
MacLaren
MacLellan (Cape/Cap Breton-The Sydneys)
Malhi
Maloney
Manley
Marchand
Marchi
Marleau
Massé
McCormick
McGuire
McKinnon
McLellan (Edmonton Northwest)
McTeague
McWhinney
Mercier
Mifflin
Milliken
Minna
9631
Mitchell
Murphy
Murray
Ménard
Nault
Nunez
Nunziata
O'Brien
O'Reilly
Ouellet
Pagtakhan
Parrish
Paré
Patry
Payne
Peric
Peters
Peterson
Phinney
Picard (Drummond)
Pickard (Essex-Kent)
Pillitteri
Plamondon
Pomerleau
Proud
Reed
Richardson
Rideout
Ringuette-Maltais
Robichaud
Rock
Rompkey
Scott (Fredericton-York-Sunbury)
Serré
Sheridan
Simmons
Skoke
Speller
St. Denis
Steckle
Stewart (Brant)
Szabo
Telegdi
Thalheimer
Tobin
Torsney
Tremblay (Rosemont)
Ur
Valeri
Vanclief
Verran
Volpe
Walker
Wappel
Wells
Whelan
Young
Zed-176
NAYS
Members
Abbott
Ablonczy
Althouse
Axworthy (Saskatoon-Clark's Crossing
Benoit
Blaikie
Breitkreuz (Yellowhead)
Breitkreuz (Yorkton-Melville)
Bridgman
Chatters
Cummins
de Jong
Duncan
Epp
Forseth
Frazer
Gilmour
Grubel
Hanger
Hanrahan
Harper (Simcoe Centre)
Hart
Hayes
Hermanson
Hill (Macleod)
Hill (Prince George-Peace River)
Hoeppner
Jennings
Johnston
Kerpan
Manning
Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca)
Mayfield
McClelland (Edmonton Southwest)
McLaughlin
Meredith
Mills (Red Deer)
Morrison
Penson
Ramsay
Riis
Ringma
Scott (Skeena)
Silye
Solberg
Solomon
Speaker
Stinson
Strahl
Taylor
Thompson
Wayne
White (Fraser Valley West)
Williams-54
PAIRED MEMBERS
Members
Allmand
Bachand
Bergeron
Bernier (Gaspé)
Bernier (Mégantic-Compton-Stanstead)
Bertrand
Bouchard
Canuel
Cauchon
Chrétien (Frontenac)
Comuzzi
Crête
Debien
Dumas
Fontana
Irwin
Keyes
Kraft Sloan
Martin (LaSalle-Émard)
Mills (Broadview-Greenwood)
Terrana
de Savoye
(1800)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): I declare the motion
carried.
* * *
[
Translation]
The House resumed from February 9, 1995, consideration of
the motion that Bill C-65, an act to reorganize and dissolve
certain federal agencies, be read the second time and referred to
a committee.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Pursuant to the order
made on Thursday 9, 1994, the House will now proceed to the
taking of the deferred division, at second reading, on Bill C-65,
an act to reorganize and dissolve certain federal agencies.
[English]
Mr. Boudria: Mr. Speaker, I think you will find unanimous
consent that the members who voted on the previous motion be
recorded as having voted on the motion now before the House,
with members of the respective parties voting in the following
manner. The Liberals will vote yea, along with the hon. member
for Beauce.
[Translation]
Mr. Duceppe: Mr. Speaker, the Bloc members will oppose the
motion.
Mr. Silye: Mr. Speaker, the members of the Reform Party will
vote against the motion, except for those who want to do
otherwise.
[English]
Mr. Solomon: Mr. Speaker, members of the New Democratic
Party caucus vote no on this motion.
Mrs. Wayne: Mr. Speaker, I will be voting no.
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
(Division No. 159)
YEAS
Members
Adams
Alcock
Anderson
Arseneault
Assad
Assadourian
Augustine
Axworthy (Winnipeg South Centre)
Baker
Bakopanos
Barnes
Beaumier
Bellemare
Bernier (Beauce)
Bethel
Bevilacqua
Blondin-Andrew
Bodnar
Bonin
Boudria
Brown (Oakville-Milton)
Brushett
Bryden
Bélair
Caccia
Calder
Campbell
Catterall
Chamberlain
Chan
Clancy
Cohen
Collenette
Collins
Copps
Cowling
Culbert
DeVillers
9632
Dhaliwal
Dingwall
Discepola
Dromisky
Duhamel
Dupuy
Eggleton
English
Fewchuk
Finestone
Finlay
Flis
Fry
Gagliano
Gagnon (Bonaventure-Îles-de-la-Madeleine)
Gallaway
Gerrard
Godfrey
Goodale
Graham
Gray (Windsor West)
Grose
Guarnieri
Harb
Harvard
Hopkins
Hubbard
Ianno
Iftody
Jackson
Jordan
Karygiannis
Kirkby
Knutson
Lastewka
Lavigne (Verdun-Saint-Paul)
LeBlanc (Cape/Cap Breton Highlands-Canso)
Lee
Lincoln
MacAulay
MacDonald
MacLaren
MacLellan (Cape/Cap Breton-The Sydneys)
Malhi
Maloney
Manley
Marchi
Marleau
Massé
McCormick
McGuire
McKinnon
McLellan (Edmonton Northwest)
McTeague
McWhinney
Mifflin
Milliken
Minna
Mitchell
Murphy
Murray
Nault
Nunziata
O'Brien
O'Reilly
Ouellet
Pagtakhan
Parrish
Patry
Payne
Peric
Peters
Peterson
Phinney
Pickard (Essex-Kent)
Pillitteri
Proud
Reed
Richardson
Rideout
Ringuette-Maltais
Robichaud
Rock
Rompkey
Scott (Fredericton-York-Sunbury)
Serré
Sheridan
Simmons
Skoke
Speller
St. Denis
Steckle
Stewart (Brant)
Szabo
Telegdi
Thalheimer
Tobin
Torsney
Ur
Valeri
Vanclief
Verran
Volpe
Walker
Wappel
Wells
Whelan
Young
Zed-147
NAYS
Members
Abbott
Ablonczy
Althouse
Asselin
Axworthy (Saskatoon-Clark's Crossing
Bellehumeur
Benoit
Blaikie
Breitkreuz (Yellowhead)
Breitkreuz (Yorkton-Melville)
Bridgman
Brien
Bélisle
Caron
Chatters
Cummins
Dalphond-Guiral
Daviault
de Jong
Deshaies
Dubé
Duceppe
Duncan
Epp
Fillion
Forseth
Frazer
Gauthier (Roberval)
Gilmour
Godin
Grubel
Hanger
Hanrahan
Harper (Simcoe Centre)
Hart
Hayes
Hermanson
Hill (Macleod)
Hill (Prince George-Peace River)
Hoeppner
Jacob
Jennings
Johnston
Kerpan
Lalonde
Landry
Langlois
Laurin
Lebel
Leblanc (Longueuil)
Manning
Marchand
Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca)
Mayfield
McClelland (Edmonton Southwest)
McLaughlin
Mercier
Meredith
Mills (Red Deer)
Morrison
Ménard
Nunez
Paré
Penson
Picard (Drummond)
Plamondon
Pomerleau
Ramsay
Riis
Ringma
Scott (Skeena)
Silye
Solberg
Solomon
Speaker
Stinson
Strahl
Taylor
Thompson
Tremblay (Rosemont)
Wayne
White (Fraser Valley West)
Williams-83
PAIRED MEMBERS
Members
Allmand
Bachand
Bergeron
Bernier (Gaspé)
Bernier (Mégantic-Compton-Stanstead)
Bertrand
Bouchard
Canuel
Cauchon
Chrétien (Frontenac)
Comuzzi
Crête
Debien
Dumas
Fontana
Irwin
Keyes
Kraft Sloan
Martin (LaSalle-Émard)
Mills (Broadview-Greenwood)
Terrana
de Savoye
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): I declare the motion
carried.
(Bill read the second time and referred to a committee.)
* * *
[
English]
The House resumed from February 9 consideration of the
motion that Bill C-67, an act to establish the Veterans Review
and Appeal Board, to amend the Pension Act, to make
consequential amendments to other acts and to repeal the
Veterans Appeal Board Act, be read the second time and referred
to a committee.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Pursuant to order made
Thursday, February 9, 1995, the House will now proceed to the
taking of the deferred division on second reading stage of Bill
C-67.
Mr. Boudria: Mr. Speaker, I think you will find unanimous
consent to apply the vote taken on government Motion No. 20 to
the vote now before the House.
9633
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Is there unanimous
consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mrs. Wayne: Mr. Speaker, I will be voting in favour of this
motion.
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
(Division No. 160)
YEAS
Members
Adams
Alcock
Anderson
Arseneault
Assad
Assadourian
Asselin
Augustine
Axworthy (Winnipeg South Centre)
Baker
Bakopanos
Barnes
Beaumier
Bellehumeur
Bellemare
Bernier (Beauce)
Bethel
Bevilacqua
Blondin-Andrew
Bodnar
Bonin
Boudria
Brien
Brown (Oakville-Milton)
Brushett
Bryden
Bélair
Bélisle
Caccia
Calder
Campbell
Caron
Catterall
Chamberlain
Chan
Clancy
Cohen
Collenette
Collins
Copps
Cowling
Culbert
Dalphond-Guiral
Daviault
Deshaies
DeVillers
Dhaliwal
Dingwall
Discepola
Dromisky
Dubé
Duceppe
Duhamel
Dupuy
Eggleton
English
Fewchuk
Fillion
Finestone
Finlay
Flis
Fry
Gagliano
Gagnon (Bonaventure-Îles-de-la-Madeleine)
Gallaway
Gauthier (Roberval)
Gerrard
Godfrey
Godin
Goodale
Graham
Gray (Windsor West)
Grose
Guarnieri
Harb
Harvard
Hopkins
Hubbard
Ianno
Iftody
Jackson
Jacob
Jordan
Karygiannis
Kirkby
Knutson
Lalonde
Landry
Langlois
Lastewka
Laurin
Lavigne (Verdun-Saint-Paul)
Lebel
LeBlanc (Cape/Cap Breton Highlands-Canso)
Leblanc (Longueuil)
Lee
Lincoln
MacAulay
MacDonald
MacLaren
MacLellan (Cape/Cap Breton-The Sydneys)
Malhi
Maloney
Manley
Marchand
Marchi
Marleau
Massé
McCormick
McGuire
McKinnon
McLellan (Edmonton Northwest)
McTeague
McWhinney
Mercier
Mifflin
Milliken
Minna
Mitchell
Murphy
Murray
Ménard
Nault
Nunez
Nunziata
O'Brien
O'Reilly
Ouellet
Pagtakhan
Parrish
Paré
Patry
Payne
Peric
Peters
Peterson
Phinney
Picard (Drummond)
Pickard (Essex-Kent)
Pillitteri
Plamondon
Pomerleau
Proud
Reed
Richardson
Rideout
Ringuette-Maltais
Robichaud
Rock
Rompkey
Scott (Fredericton-York-Sunbury)
Serré
Sheridan
Simmons
Skoke
Speller
St. Denis
Steckle
Stewart (Brant)
Szabo
Telegdi
Thalheimer
Tobin
Torsney
Tremblay (Rosemont)
Ur
Valeri
Vanclief
Verran
Volpe
Walker
Wappel
Wayne
Wells
Whelan
Young
Zed-177
NAYS
Members
Abbott
Ablonczy
Althouse
Axworthy (Saskatoon-Clark's Crossing
Benoit
Blaikie
Breitkreuz (Yellowhead)
Breitkreuz (Yorkton-Melville)
Bridgman
Chatters
Cummins
de Jong
Duncan
Epp
Forseth
Frazer
Gilmour
Grubel
Hanger
Hanrahan
Harper (Simcoe Centre)
Hart
Hayes
Hermanson
Hill (Macleod)
Hill (Prince George-Peace River)
Hoeppner
Jennings
Johnston
Kerpan
Manning
Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca)
Mayfield
McClelland (Edmonton Southwest)
McLaughlin
Meredith
Mills (Red Deer)
Morrison
Penson
Ramsay
Riis
Ringma
Scott (Skeena)
Silye
Solberg
Solomon
Speaker
Stinson
Strahl
Taylor
Thompson
White (Fraser Valley West)
Williams-53
PAIRED MEMBERS
Members
Allmand
Bachand
Bergeron
Bernier (Gaspé)
Bernier (Mégantic-Compton-Stanstead)
Bertrand
Bouchard
Canuel
Cauchon
Chrétien (Frontenac)
Comuzzi
Crête
Debien
Dumas
Fontana
Irwin
Keyes
Kraft Sloan
Martin (LaSalle-Émard)
Mills (Broadview-Greenwood)
Terrana
de Savoye
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): I declare the motion
carried.
9634
(Bill read the second time and referred to a committee.)
* * *
(1805)
[Translation]
The House resumed from February 10, consideration of Bill
C-37, an act to amend the Young Offenders Act and the Criminal
Code, as reported (with amendments) from the Standing
Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs; and of Motion No. 1.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Pursuant to an order made
Friday, February 10, 1995, the House will now proceed to the
taking of the deferred division on Motion No. 1 at the report
stage of Bill C-37, an act to amend the Young Offenders Act and
the Criminal Code.
The division is on Motion No. 1 in the name of the Minister of
Justice.
[English]
Mr. Boudria: Mr. Speaker, I think you would find unanimous
consent to apply the vote taken on the main motion for second
reading of Bill C-65 to the motion now before the House, as well
as applying it to the concurrence at report stage of Bill C-37.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Is there agreement?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
[Editor's Note: See list under Division No. 159.]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): I declare Motion No. 1
carried.
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Justice and Attorney
General of Canada, Lib.): moved that the bill be concurred in.
[Editor's Note: See list under Division No. 159.]
(Motion agreed to.)
* * *
[
Translation]
The House resumed from February 13, consideration of Bill
C-59, an act to amend the Income Tax Act and the Income Tax
Application Rules, as reported (with amendments) from the
standing committee on finance; and of Motion No. 1.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Pursuant to Standing
Order 45, the House will now proceed to the taking of the
deferred division on Motion No. 1 at the report stage of Bill
C-59, an act to amend the Income Tax Act and the Income Tax
Application Rules.
The division is on Motion No. 1 in the name of the hon.
member for Mercier.
[English]
Mr. Boudria: Mr. Speaker, I think you would find unanimous
consent that the members who voted on the previous motion be
recorded as having voted on the motion before the House in the
following manner: Liberal members voting nay, along with the
hon. member for Beauce.
[Translation]
Mr. Duceppe: Mr. Speaker, members of the Bloc Quebecois
support this motion.
[English]
Mr. Silye: Mr. Speaker, the Reform Party members vote no,
except for those who wish to vote otherwise.
Mr. Solomon: Mr. Speaker, members of the New Democratic
Party caucus vote yes on this motion.
Mrs. Wayne: Mr. Speaker, the PC member votes yes.
(The House divided on the motion, which was negatived on
the following division:)
(Division No. 161)
YEAS
Members
Althouse
Asselin
Axworthy (Saskatoon-Clark's Crossing)
Bellehumeur
Blaikie
Brien
Bélisle
Caron
Dalphond-Guiral
Daviault
de Jong
Deshaies
Dubé
Duceppe
Fillion
Gauthier (Roberval)
Godin
Jacob
Lalonde
Landry
Langlois
Laurin
Lebel
Leblanc (Longueuil)
Marchand
McLaughlin
Mercier
Ménard
Nunez
Paré
Picard (Drummond)
Plamondon
Pomerleau
Riis
Solomon
Taylor
Tremblay (Rosemont)
Wayne-38
NAYS
Members
Abbott
Ablonczy
Adams
Alcock
Anderson
Arseneault
Assad
Assadourian
Augustine
Axworthy (Winnipeg South Centre)
Baker
Bakopanos
Barnes
Beaumier
Bellemare
Benoit
Bernier (Beauce)
Bethel
Bevilacqua
Blondin-Andrew
Bodnar
Bonin
Boudria
Breitkreuz (Yellowhead)
Breitkreuz (Yorkton-Melville)
Bridgman
Brown (Oakville-Milton)
Brushett
Bryden
Bélair
Caccia
Calder
9635
Campbell
Catterall
Chamberlain
Chan
Chatters
Clancy
Cohen
Collenette
Collins
Copps
Cowling
Culbert
Cummins
DeVillers
Dhaliwal
Dingwall
Discepola
Dromisky
Duhamel
Duncan
Dupuy
Eggleton
English
Epp
Fewchuk
Finestone
Finlay
Flis
Forseth
Frazer
Fry
Gagliano
Gagnon (Bonaventure-Îles-de-la-Madeleine)
Gallaway
Gerrard
Gilmour
Godfrey
Goodale
Graham
Gray (Windsor West)
Grose
Grubel
Guarnieri
Hanger
Hanrahan
Harb
Harper (Simcoe Centre)
Hart
Harvard
Hayes
Hermanson
Hill (Macleod)
Hill (Prince George-Peace River)
Hoeppner
Hopkins
Hubbard
Ianno
Iftody
Jackson
Jennings
Johnston
Jordan
Karygiannis
Kerpan
Kirkby
Knutson
Lastewka
Lavigne (Verdun-Saint-Paul)
LeBlanc (Cape/Cap Breton Highlands-Canso)
Lee
Lincoln
MacAulay
MacDonald
MacLaren
MacLellan (Cape/Cap Breton-The Sydneys)
Malhi
Maloney
Manley
Manning
Marchi
Marleau
Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca)
Massé
Mayfield
McClelland (Edmonton Southwest)
McCormick
McGuire
McKinnon
McLellan (Edmonton Northwest)
McTeague
McWhinney
Meredith
Mifflin
Milliken
Mills (Red Deer)
Minna
Mitchell
Morrison
Murphy
Murray
Nault
Nunziata
O'Brien
O'Reilly
Ouellet
Pagtakhan
Parrish
Patry
Payne
Penson
Peric
Peters
Peterson
Phinney
Pickard (Essex-Kent)
Pillitteri
Proud
Ramsay
Reed
Richardson
Rideout
Ringma
Ringuette-Maltais
Robichaud
Rock
Rompkey
Scott (Fredericton-York-Sunbury)
Scott (Skeena)
Serré
Sheridan
Silye
Simmons
Skoke
Solberg
Speaker
Speller
St. Denis
Steckle
Stewart (Brant)
Stinson
Strahl
Szabo
Telegdi
Thalheimer
Thompson
Tobin
Torsney
Ur
Valeri
Vanclief
Verran
Volpe
Walker
Wappel
Wells
Whelan
White (Fraser Valley West)
Williams
Young
Zed-192
PAIRED MEMBERS
Members
Allmand
Bachand
Bergeron
Bernier (Gaspé)
Bernier (Mégantic-Compton-Stanstead)
Bertrand
Bouchard
Canuel
Cauchon
Chrétien (Frontenac)
Comuzzi
Crête
Debien
Dumas
Fontana
Irwin
Keyes
Kraft Sloan
Martin (LaSalle-Émard)
Mills (Broadview-Greenwood)
Terrana
de Savoye
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): I declare the motion lost.
Hon. Roy MacLaren (for Minister of Finance and Minister
responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development
-Quebec, Lib.) moved that the bill be concurred in.
Mr. Boudria: Mr. Speaker, I think you would find unanimous
consent that the vote taken on the main motion for second
reading of Bill C-65 be applied to the concurrence at report
stage of Bill C-59 now before the House.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Is there consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
[Editor's Note: See list under Division No. 159.]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): I declare the motion
carried.
(Motion agreed to.)
It being 6.10 p.m. the House will now proceed to the
consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on today's
Order Paper.
_____________________________________________
9635
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[
English]
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, NDP) moved that Bill C-285,
an act to eliminate financial support for nuclear reactor design
and construction in Canada or abroad and to amend the Atomic
Energy Control Act in consequence thereof, be read the second
time and referred to a committee.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I am really pleased to have the chance to
raise this private member's bill today. It is very timely. Today is
Valentine's Day when we acknowledge the special relationships
that we have in our lives.
9636
Today I call into question the relationship that the federal
government has with the nuclear industry. For many years it
has been a sweetheart deal between the federal government and
the nuclear industry of Canada.
Essentially this bill is intended to cut the subsidies that the
federal government over the years has provided for the nuclear
sector. I have a list from 1948 until 1992. I will not read it out
because it goes on and on. It clearly identifies the hundreds of
millions of dollars with which the Canadian taxpayers subsidize
Canada's nuclear industry.
I want to make clear from the start that this in no way reflects
a reduction in support for the use of isotopes for medical use. We
all acknowledge the benefits that accrue from a whole set of
medical initiatives.
Perhaps I should read what this bill does. The title is Nuclear
Reactor Finance Limitation Act.
(1815)
It says:
Notwithstanding any act of Parliament, no payment shall be made from the
consolidated revenue fund for the purpose of subsidizing or paying or loaning
any part of the cost or of guaranteeing any loan that is for the purpose of
subsidizing or paying or loaning any part of the cost of any real property,
intellectual property, goods or services that are used for the research,
investigation, design, testing, construction, manufacture, operation, use,
application or licensing of any thing or property of any nature that will be used
in or for a nuclear reactor.
It goes on to elaborate on this theme. Basically it is a bill that
would eliminate the subsidies that the federal government
provides to the nuclear sector. These are substantial. I think if
one were to generalize, it would not be an elaboration to suggest
that on average about $200 million a year of taxpayers' money
goes to subsidizing this particular industry.
This is a time when we are all conscious of the need for fiscal
restraint and aware of the need for evaluating every subsidy,
grant and expenditure on a cost benefit basis. We can apply any
cost benefit analysis to ask whether the $200 million year after
year is a good investment for the taxpayers of Canada. There is
only one conclusion in economic, health and environmental
terms. It does not stand up to scrutiny.
I want to elaborate on a few points. We talk about being on the
dole. A previous leader went on at some time about the corporate
welfare bums. If there were ever a corporate welfare bum it has
to be the nuclear sector. We would assume the nuclear industry
is a major player in the energy sector because of the tremendous
subsidies it receives.
We would assume the nuclear sector contributes a significant
percentage of the overall energy sector of Canada. It does not. It
is actually beneath firewood. In other words, more people use
firewood for energy than nuclear energy. By firewood I am
talking about hog fuels as opposed to what people are using in a
fireplace or whatever. We typically burn chunks of wood.
Wood accounts for about 7 per cent of the energy picture.
Coal, electric and others account for 6 per cent. Hydro accounts
for 14 per cent, gas for 33 per cent, oil for 36 per cent, nuclear 4
per cent. Out of all of the various energy options in our country,
nuclear accounts for about 4 per cent of the entire energy
package. Yet in terms of research and development monies
coming from the federal government, it receives more than all
others combined.
When we add up the $200 million a year over the life of this
particular government, it will come to nearly $1 billion. I think
if taxpayers were put the question in a referendum: ``Are you
prepared to spend $1 billion over the life of this particular
federal government to support and subsidize the nuclear energy
sector?'', my guess is that overwhelmingly people would say no.
I know that an argument people often use for example is there
are a number of people employed in this sector. Of course, we
could say that about any sector. If that were the sole motivation,
I suppose we should be subsidizing the marijuana industry or the
drug industry if jobs are the criteria.
Any economic activity will create jobs, including the nuclear
sector. Of greater relevance is whether such jobs are sustainable,
including the overall cost to society of maintaining those jobs.
When I talk about the $200 million subsidy annually, that is
not the actual cost to Canadians. That is the cost today.
Eventually we are going to have to start dismantling these
nuclear reactors, 22 of them with Ontario Hydro alone. We are
going to start decommissioning these nuclear reactors. To
decommission a nuclear reactor is not some minor financial
undertaking.
The Auditor General, I think in the 1992 report, indicated that
a major cost that is never counted into the accounting system of
Atomic Energy Canada is the cost accruing in terms of eventual
dismantling. We have some evidence of what that cost would be.
I think the most recent nuclear reactor that was dismantled in
New Jersey cost $157 million U.S. Rounding it out, for one
nuclear reactor alone we are adding another $200 million for the
decommissioning. That is just decommissioning. What do we do
with the nuclear waste? Again, we have yet to come up with
something for what is at this moment a serious problem and
likely to be a problem for perhaps hundreds, thousands or
millions of years to come.
(1820)
Here we are on this treadmill developing nuclear reactors,
going head long in terms of these incredible subsidies to this one
energy sector that only accounts for 4 per cent of the total energy
package for Canada at a time when they are unsafe, we do not
9637
know what to do with the waste. Even now the subsidies do not
reflect the true cost.
We just had on Parliament Hill a reception. The minister
welcomed the nuclear industry to Parliament Hill. We heard
what people are really worried about, that this is very
economical.
If it is so economical why have we had to subsidize this
industry since 1948? Why does it cost the taxpayers of Canada,
not $200 million, not $1 billion, but close to $20 billion? Is this
what we call economical? That industry after decades of
subsidization still cannot stand on its own two feel. It requires
this incredible subsidy by the federal government on an annual
basis.
Talk about being on the dole. That industry should be hanging
its head in disgrace, coming here wearing out the knees of its
pants asking for that kind of handout from the taxpayers of
Canada year after year. Has it no grace? Has it no pride?-not as
long as those people are across the way, whether they be Tories
or Liberals, it does not make any difference. They are there,
backing up the old truck and shovelling out the taxpayers'
dollars, $200 million to start with on an annual basis.
I think my Liberal friends across the way surely should be
waiting for me to sit down so they can get up and condemn this
abuse of taxpayers' money and to say now is the time to send a
message to our Minister of Finance. They should stand up and be
counted. Do the right thing. Listen to Canadians and stop this
handout to the nuclear industry.
I got a little worked up but I cannot help it when I see the kind
of abuses we tolerate.
What can we say about this? I want to reiterate a few points.
The nuclear industry represents 4 per cent of the energy package
of Canada and yet receives more than the natural gas sector, the
oil sector, the coal sector, the renewable sector and conservation
combined in terms of subsidies.
I ask my Liberal friends across the way-I know my Reform
friends will agree with me and certainly the Bloc will agree with
me-if we are going to subsidize any part of the energy sector
should it not make more sense to subsidize the area that is
looking into how to replace this kind of industry, the renewable
resources or the alternative, the conservationist options that are
available to us?
We heard sometime ago that down in New York they decided
to back out of the big James Bay hydro project. The reason they
did that was the conservation elements that they introduced in
the state of New York were so overwhelmingly successful they
did not need the power. There might be other factors that we
have to take into consideration but fundamentally the energy
authority in the state of New York said the conservation methods
introduced have been so successful that it does not have to enter
into that long term energy agreement with Quebec Hydro.
Again, where we have evidence it works. Yet this government
seems to be walking around with a real hearing problem, a real
sight problem. It cannot see what is obviously the right thing to
do. I say to the government if it is confident in what it says it
does, ask the people of Canada what they think; if we should be
handing out money by the basket full, $200 million a year plus to
one energy sector that accounts for only 4 per cent of the whole
energy package in Canada.
If there is a country in the world that does not have to
subsidize the nuclear industry, that does not need a nuclear
industry, it is Canada.
(1825 )
We have energy coming out of our yin-yang. We have coal,
we have-
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Riis: Yin-yang is a town in Saskatchewan, I think. I am
not certain of that.
An hon. member: It is a little town in China.
Mr. Riis: My friend says it is a little town in China. That
sounds better.
Despite 50 years of massive government subsidies, being on
the dole, asking for handouts, the nuclear industry still cannot
stand on its own two feet. Should that not get all of our attention
in this House? After 50 years of handouts, after 50 years of
coming in here and begging for support, it still cannot stand on
its own two feet. Should we not say it is time it reassess how
viable it is in terms of the future of Canada?
This gets almost obscene. The federal government wrote off a
$70 million loan to AECL for the Douglas Point reactor at Bruce
site. Quebec's number one reactor never operated properly and
had to be shut down. A $90 million loan to AECL was written off
by the federal government.
Despite the failure of that reactor Ottawa has now financed a
second one to the tune of $151 million. It gets worse. It is very
embarrassing.
It is the standing policy of this government, the Tories before
and the Liberals now, to finance one-half of the estimated cost
of any province's first nuclear plant. That is policy. The
Government of Canada has written off about $800 million in
unpaid loans to Nova Scotia and Quebec heavy water plants. In
1977-78 the federal government wrote off about $190 million in
loans to AECL.
Canada's Nuclear Liability Act limits the liability of nuclear
operators to $75 million in the event of a nuclear accident. It has
been estimated that a severe accident at the Darlington nuclear
9638
station would cost at least a trillion dollars and could lead to
over 200,000 fatalities.
I could go on and on. That brings me to an important point,
whether the nuclear energy sector is safe? I think this is
fundamental in people's minds. It is certainly not economical. It
is certainly environmentally unsound and I think that is a given.
Is it safe?
Mr. Speaker, I think you will be shocked. During 1993 the
Atomic Energy Control Board recorded 700 ``unusual
incidents'' at Canada's 22 operating nuclear reactors. That is
almost two a day. You are astonished. I am too. These incidents
range from spills of radioactive heavy water to unexplained
power surges. Of these, 270 were serious enough to warrant a
full report to AECB and a follow up investigation. That is
incredible, two incidents a day that warranted full scale
investigations.
The annual reports of the Atomic Energy Control Board
provide ample evidence of the inherent dangers of nuclear
technology. The following really got me riled up in terms of
having to do something to prevent this catastrophe that is about
to happen. It is reported that in August 1992 radioactive heavy
water from the Pickering A nuclear reactor leaked into Lake
Ontario downstream from the water supply plants for the
communities of Ajax and Whitby, forcing a shutdown of the
plants. This incident resulted in the highest single emission of
radioactive tritium into the lake since the reactor began
operating in 1971.
This goes on and on. No wonder those whales are whipping up
on the beaches in Quebec all scarred up, sick and blue. We have
nuclear waste draining into the Great Lakes.
The 1992 annual report, the one that really got my attention,
states that in March 1993 Ontario Hydro discovered a serious
deficiency in the analysis of an accident involving a large loss of
reactor coolant. The analysis showed that the consequence of
such an accident, if it were to occur while operating at full
power, would be unacceptable. The term unacceptable is a
euphemism for a disaster, probably.
They are not safe. They are not economical. They are
environmentally unsound. They are a threat to our health and
they are breaking the treasury. Why on earth would we continue
on this sort of treadmill to nowhere, forking out that kind of
taxpayers' money?
(1830 )
Mr. Speaker, my time is quickly coming to an end. So I will sit
down now while I wait for my friends across the way to explain
to the taxpayers of Canada how this incredible subsidy ought to
continue.
Hopefully, a little lightening bolt will come out of the sky and
give them a little snap so they will say: ``Yes, tomorrow morning
I am going to walk over to the Minister of Finance's desk, sit
down beside him and say: ``Mr. Minister of Finance, it is time to
end this madness. Save the taxpayers of Canada hundreds of
millions of dollars. Bring them a safer environment, a healthier
environment and something that is economically and
environmentally sound now''. The only way we can do that is to
stop funding Canada's nuclear sector.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Earlier in his intervention
the member referred to the Speaker being shocked. I am not so
sure about that, but I am still looking for that little town in the
Chinese province of Saskatchewan.
Mr. Leonard Hopkins (Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, well here we go again. The NDP party with
the same bill it brought in before. The same old party. The same
worn out rhetoric. The same wrong conclusions-
Mr. Riis: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I want to hear the
hon. member's speech however, he mentioned the NDP party.
Think about it. That would be the New Democratic Party party.
If he is going to refer to us, at least say the New Democratic
Party.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Respectfully, the member
does not have a point of order.
Mr. Hopkins: Mr. Speaker, I thought I was very kind because
I have heard them called worse.
I want to remind the hon. member that Ontario Premier Bob
Ray stood with the Prime Minister of Canada when we sold two
reactors to China. He was so proud of our Canadian technology.
I know he got into a bit of criticism over that, but he understands
what research and development means and we respect him for
that.
This bill will prevent the federal government from giving any
financial assistance or technical support to nuclear reactor
projects, except those making isotopes for medical use.
The hon. member made a great deal out of wasting money. Let
me state one important point right off the bat, and this is for
Canadian consumption in view of what the hon. member has
said. From 1952 to 1992 the Canadian government invested $4.7
billion in Atomic Energy of Canada Limited. During the 30 year
period from 1962 until 1992 the nuclear industry in Canada had
a return for Canadians of $23 billion. Now, if we are going to get
a return of $5 for every dollar invested, I do not think that is a
bad investment.
NDP members have learned one thing. It took them some time
to learn it, but they learned that isotopes are useful in medicine.
Radioisotopes have various applications. One use is for
sterilizing medical instruments. The hon. member does not
seem to understand that cobalt 60 which is a byproduct from
Ontario Hydro's power reactors is an isotope product. He wants
to
9639
destroy the reactors that produce it, yet he wants isotopes saved
for medical purposes.
Come on, do your homework here. In their press conference
material the hon. member and his colleagues do not want the
production of isotopes for medical use interfered with, but in
this bill they are proposing to cripple hydro power reactors
which produce isotopes. What a contradiction.
Molly 99 which is a shortened version of Molybdenum 99 is
produced at the NRU research reactor at Chalk River. This is a
radioisotope product which is supplied to Nordion International
Incorporated so that Canada can continue to control the 88 to 90
per cent of the world market we control today in isotopes.
However, the NDP today wants to cripple some of the
production facilities of isotopes while at the same time wanting
to maintain isotope production. That sounds like the modern day
rhetoric of the NDP.
(1835)
I want to get on to some other very interesting things in reply
to what the hon. member has said. Those are items about the
economic factors.
In 1993, 50 per cent of Ontario's electricity came from
nuclear generators and in New Brunswick, 35 per cent came
from nuclear generators. In 1993, Ontario Hydro's published
generating costs were 6.8 cents per kilowatt hour for fossil fuel
and 5.4 cents per kilowatt hour for nuclear power. This is a 20
per cent advantage for nuclear power, yet the NDP calls that
waste. We can understand that.
In terms of lifetime performance, five in the top 20 reactors in
the entire world were Candu reactors made in Canada by
Canadians. Canada's Pointe Lepreau reactor was the number
two reactor in the entire world.
The automobile industry uses nuclear technology to test steel
quality in cars. The paper industry uses it in the production of
coded stock. Manufacturers use it to check for flaws in jet
engines. Construction crews gauge the density of road surfaces
and subsurfaces with it. Pipeline companies test the strength of
welds, and oil and gas mining companies map the contours of
test wells and mine bores with it. But NDP members want to do
away with all this. They are very progressive in their thinking. It
is no wonder they are sitting where they are today.
Atomic Energy of Canada Limited engineers developed the
first commercial sterilizers in 1964. There are roughly 170 such
units currently in use in 46 countries and 90 of them are
Canadian designs.
Radioisotopes are used extensively by industry in quality
control and process management. The petroleum industry uses
them to test pipeline welds. The pulp and paper industry uses
them to measure the thickness of paper. Many industries use
them to trace the flows of material through process systems.
Imagine what would happen to our modern day industry if we
destroyed the basis of all this. In environmental matters, the
worldwide use of nuclear power plants results in lowered CO2
emissions globally by 1.5 billion tonnes a year.
Mr. Milliken: And they are opposed to this?
Mr. Hopkins: Yes, they are opposed to this.
If Ontario Hydro had used coal fired generating plants to
produce the same amount of electricity as has been made by its
nuclear plants to date, it would have released 9.9 million tonnes
of acid gas into the atmosphere and produced 23.3 million
tonnes of ashes.
All of the used fuel from Canada's nuclear plants would fit
into one olympic size swimming pool. The coal ashes would
require about 25,000 times as much space if coal had been used.
What is more, the nuclear fuel still has the potential for
recycling to produce much more energy. A single uranium fuel
bundle of about 10 centimetres in diameter and 50 centimetres
long and weighing 25 kilograms produces as much electricity as
380 tonnes of coal or 1,800 barrels of oil. But the NDP wants to
do away with this.
A large nuclear power reactor uses 150 tonnes of natural
uranium per year, equivalent to two million tonnes of black coal
or 10 million barrels of oil. Is that what the NDP stands for?
Since 1973 nuclear power plants worldwide have cut fossil
fuels used to generate electricity by 17.6 billion barrels of oil
worth $470 billion U.S., 2.2 billion tonnes of coal, 26 trillion
cubic feet of natural gas. This is not a bad saving. It is not bad for
conservation.
(1840)
For medical applications almost every facet of modern
medicine relies in some way on nuclear technology, from
nuclear powered units in heart pacemakers to the sutures,
surgical gloves and medical supplies that are sterilized by
radiation and used in hospitals each day.
Millions of diagnostic procedures are carried out annually
using nuclear technology. Cancer treatment systems using
nuclear technology are used to save thousands of lives
throughout the world. More than 1,300 of the world's cobalt
therapy machines have been supplied by Canada. This figure
represents close to 50 per cent of the total cobalt 60 therapy
machines used to date.
Every year in 70 countries an estimated one-half million
people are treated for cancer using cobalt therapy machines
designed and built in Canada. Canada is a world leader in the
production of cobalt 60. The country supplies more than 80 per
cent of the world's total cobalt 60 used in medical and industrial
applications. AECL was instrumental in the development of the
cobalt 60 treatment for cancer.
9640
Cobalt 60 is a human-made radioisotope produced using a
nuclear reactor. Radioisotopes are used to help diagnose
medical ailments and prescribe remedies. Such isotopes can
detect how well organs are functioning, how well the body
absorbs particular substances, and where tumours might be
located. They have a range of valuable uses.
The hon. member has told this House of Commons and all
Canadians that AECL is a waste of money. Are all these facts a
waste of money? The hon. member should take a second look
and do his homework.
I will end my comments here. I have much more I would like
to say to educate the hon. member, but I will pay due respect to
the Chair. My time is up.
[Translation]
Mr. Roger Pomerleau (Anjou-Rivière-des-Prairies,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, I wish to say that I am very happy to take part
in the debate on Bill C-285. First of all, I wish to thank the NDP
member who introduced this bill and who has done so in such an
entertaining and informative way.
Bill C-285 provides for the elimination of financial support
for nuclear reactor design and construction. That prospect is
viewed by the Bloc Quebecois as interesting and relevant under
the present circumstances.
Indeed, how could we not have doubts about the nuclear
energy development policy of the Canadian government and the
significant investments required for the implementation of that
policy. As the Official Opposition of the House of Commons, we
are deeply concerned by energy development policies.
Our concerns are twofold. First, we should wonder about the
environmental costs of the development of any type of energy, in
this instance nuclear energy, and second, about the impact the
development of such energy may have on the economy of a
country. I would like to take a few minutes to discuss those two
issues.
The Minister of Natural Resources of Canada said recently to
the Nuclear Awareness Project that she believed it would be
appropriate to continue to develop nuclear energy in Canada.
But at what cost to the environment and the Canadian taxpayers,
that is the question.
First of all, in the industrial process of long term development
of nuclear energy, the risks for the human environment are very
high. Indeed, we know fully well that radioactive waste
produced by the nuclear industry is most dangerous to the
human species. Spent fuel represents not only the highest risks,
but also the most difficult challenge if we want to find a safe,
long term method of storage.
(1845)
After 500 years, for example, nuclear fission material
produced by the Canadian nuclear industry will still be active. In
December 1992, there were 21,000 tonnes of spent fuel stored in
Canada, 90 per cent of which was produced by Ontario Hydro,
and the Canadian nuclear industry is not even 50 years old. For
human beings, radioactivity is highly cancerous and very
harmful genetically.
Clearly, the results of the accidents that occurred at the
nuclear compounds of Three Mile Island and Chernobyl are very
good examples of that. We must also remember that the nuclear
industry in eastern European countries is in such a state that it is
a time bomb for humanity and we can all see clearly what
political problems that creates. The coming apart of the Union
of Soviet Socialist Republics left nuclear power plants almost
abandoned everywhere because the people in charge of those
plants moved from Eastern Europe to more financially secure
countries where they can earn a better living. Mechanics and
plumbers generally speaking operate the power plants and these
certainly are time bombs for humanity.
Not only does the nuclear reaction from the fuel produce
radioactive elements, it also produces neutrons which strike
other components of the reactor itself and activate some of its
substances which also become radioactive. This means that the
reactor structure will have to be stored as radioactive waste once
the reactor has reached the end of its useful life. The Chalk River
nuclear laboratory of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited
contains three outdated nuclear reactors, and the site itself is
seriously contaminated by radioactive waste. Atomic Energy is
also responsible for two outdated reactors, at Whitshell,
Manitoba, for the NPD reactor at Rolphton and the Douglas
Point reactor at Bruce, both in Ontario, and for the Gentilly 1
reactor in Bécancour. All of these reactors are no longer in use
and should be stored.
The cost of a stockpiling system is astronomical. The
estimated cost of stockpiling a little over 100,000 tonnes of used
fuel is $9 billion. We share the view of the Auditor General of
Canada that Atomic Energy of Canada will require even larger
subsidies in order to cover the costs of dismantling these
outdated reactors. This means that the costs the government is
calculating now, in terms of the cost of this energy, the costs that
have to be budgeted later, to ensure safe storage of the waste
from these plants when the government is no longer in power,
simply because hundreds of years are involved, these costs are
never calculated.
This leads to the next question of whether the nuclear industry
can turn a profit over the long term. Another question with
respect to the human environment concerns the use of nuclear
energy for military purposes. Uranium 235 and 238 are
consumed in Canadian reactors of the CANDU type; they are
elements which, when bombarded by a neutron to cause fission
and create energy, become plutonium 239 atoms. The creation of
plutonium 239 in nuclear reactors raises a very serious problem
in regard to nuclear weapons and world peace. Plutonium 239 is
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fissionable and can be used in the production of nuclear
weapons.
Even if plutonium 239 is the isotope preferred by arms
manufacturers, other plutonium isotopes are also fissionable
and can be used to manufacture bombs. Knowing that Atomic
Energy of Canada, the body responsible for promoting nuclear
energy in Canada, is trying to sell CANDU reactors by any
means possible, which is, after all, why they are building them
all over the world, we must look into this very closely. Despite
the many multilateral and bilateral treaties on the
non-proliferation of nuclear weapons between Canada and the
rest of the world, we must be realistic: there will be a real risk of
nuclear technology being used for military purposes as long as
the nuclear industry is developing in the world.
The second facet of Canada's nuclear industry is government
financing. I have already mentioned the astronomical costs of
storing radioactive waste. Maintenance at Atomic Energy of
Canada Limited is subsidized by the public purse, and has been
for the past six years, to the tune of $1.2 billion. The cost of
building a reactor is $1.5 billion, an investment on which even a
long term return is not guaranteed. We are justified in
questioning the investment of public funds in this industry.
(1850)
During the Prime Minister's trip to China last fall, according
to representatives of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited who
were interviewed in Peking, Atomic Energy made a proposal to
build two reactors on Chinese territory under a turnkey proposal
without requiring a large investment by China. The
representatives said that acquiring these reactors, valued at $3
billion, would be extremely advantageous for the Chinese, who
would not have to tie up foreign currency holdings for a long
period. In other words, we are selling CANDUs, but we are
financing them entirely.
What about the people of Canada who pay the major part of
the construction costs of such reactors? Is the present evolution
of Chinese society collateral enough for Canadian investments?
These are legitimate questions we should ask ourselves.
The present Canadian policy in the area of nuclear
development is costly and dangerous, in terms of both public
finance and the human environment. This is why, considering
that Canada is trying to reduce its deficit, we believe that Bill
C-285, which seeks to eliminate financial support for nuclear
reactor design and construction in Canada and abroad, is a
worthwhile initiative.
[English]
Mr. Lee Morrison (Swift Current-Maple
Creek-Assiniboia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the millennium has
arrived. We have just had an NDP member suggesting that we
cut off subsidies to a major crown corporation. I thought I would
never see the day. Actually what he is in effect proposing in the
practical sense is the privatization of AECL.
If he wants to make the same proposal with respect to the
CBC, the National Film Board and what is left of the
government's stake in Petro-Canada, I will move over one seat
and let him join us. We will make him a Reformer, an honorary
Reformer.
Mr. Riis: Thanks but no thanks.
Mr. Morrison: It is a good idea to talk about privatizing
AECL but it is not simple. We cannot do that in one quick step.
We must remember that more than 80 per cent of the nuclear
industry in Canada is already private. The only parts that are still
under government supervision and are still being subsidized by
the government are the parts that do not make money, the
research facilities primarily. Everything else is being operated
by the private sector. There are 150 companies out there that
compete with suppliers in client countries. They are efficient
and they make money.
The Koreans have been so delighted with what we have done
with the private end of the industry, the building of the reactors,
that they have ordered three more. I would have to take issue
with the hon. member who spoke for the Liberals. Wolsong 1 is
probably a better reactor even than Point Lepreau. It has been up
and running since 1982. They love it and they want more of
them.
Let us get back to AECL specifically. Among the major crown
corporations it is the only one that is seriously cutting costs.
This formerly bloated entity has cut its staff from 4,500 to
3,700. Even more commendable is that it has reduced its Ottawa
head office staff from 160 to 54, a two-thirds reduction.
I was out at Chalk River a couple of months ago to look the
place over and what I found was quite a tight ship. There was
none of the opulence that we have come to associate with
government. It was nothing like the Department of National
Defence, for example, or the Department of Fisheries and
Oceans. This is an outfit that knows what money is for.
Let us take a look at the specifics of the bill. Clause 3(b)
speaks of research, investigation, design, testing, construction,
manufacture, operation, use, application or licensing of any
thing or property of any nature that will be used in or for a
nuclear reactor. If the world were only that simple. We cannot
pigeon hole or categorize scientific research like that. Much of
what is being done at Chalk River at the moment is pure
scientific research which may or may not be applicable to
reactor design.
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(1855)
The line between pure and applied science is very hard to
draw. That is why privatization although necessary and
desirable will be difficult. An entirely new company of
researchers will have to be formed to sell their services to the
people who have the reactors. That is going on now to some
extent. They take in $86 million a year in fees for the work that is
done at Chalk River on behalf of reactor owners. Eventually
they will have to become self-sufficient and I do not think it will
happen until it is privatized.
With all the pure science going on out there it is not going to
be an easy sell. However we do not just kill the flagship of
Canadian R and D. Let us remember the Avro Arrow, because
this is the sort of thing we are talking about. Clause 4 would
preclude provision to any person, any professional, scientific
technical information or assistance that relates to research
investigation, design, testing, construction, manufacture,
operation, use, application or licensing of any thing or property
of any nature that would be used in or for a nuclear reactor. In
plain English, it would make orphans of the Candu reactors that
provide almost half of Ontario's electricity.
The work being done at AECL that is not pure science is
bankrolled by the utilities. As I have mentioned they spend
about $86 million a year on it. It is to enhance plant safety,
prolong operational lives and cut maintenance costs. If we want
to remain in the forefront of an industry we have to do R and D
and we have to do it continuously.
They are doing work out there now on the applications of
computer technology to the construction and operation of
plants, improving reactor fuel channels, better fuel design and
so on. Bill C-285 would stop this cold.
Clause 5 says that the act does not apply to a nuclear reactor
that has as its sole purpose the manufacture or development of
isotopes for medical use. The hon. member for Kamloops should
know that this function of AECL has already been privatized.
Nordion was sold for $165 million. Incidentally the government
of the day pocketed the funds into general revenue and did not
leave a penny for the operations.
During his long harangue about the technical side of nuclear
energy the hon. member for Kamloops reflected the
anti-industrial primitivism that is so common among a small
segment of his party, the people we refer to as the nuts and
berries crowd.
We live in a climate of irrational fear of the atom because
most people do not understand it. They do not have a vague
notion of how a reactor works. Polls indicate that 10 per cent of
the public actually believes that a reactor can explode like an
atomic bomb. Vast numbers who at least know better than that
believe a nuclear plant constantly emits streams of deadly
radiation that will induce cancer, make them sterile or cause
them to conceive defective children.
A few highly visible crusaders have seized upon the fears as a
convenient means of attacking a social order that they find
distasteful and have found highly successful careers as virtual
cult leaders. When primitive man was troubled by fears of the
unknown, he consulted the witch doctor or the shaman.
Sophisticated modern man appeals to Amory Lovins, Ralph
Nader or Barry Commoner.
The hon. member was engaging in a little shameless sophistry
when talked about 4 per cent of the energy uses of Canada
coming from nuclear. For God's sake that includes the use of
fuel in cars. There are not very many nuclear cars. What it does
produce is 20 per cent of the electrical energy that is used in the
country and, as has been stated two or three times, nearly 50 per
cent of Ontario's electrical energy. We used to have a bumper
sticker out west that said: ``Let those eastern bastards freeze in
the dark''. Apparently this is what the hon. member for
Kamloops is suggesting we do again.
(1900)
He mentioned the decommissioning cost of $13 billion. That
is not bad for an industry that produces $4 billion worth of
electricity annually over a period of probably 30 years of
operational life for a plant. Remember, that $13 billion is not
just for one reactor, that is for the whole shooting match. At least
that is a number which both the pro and the anti-nukes agree on.
There has been a lot of talk about the waste. It is an insoluble
problem. It will be with us forever. The nuclear priesthood will
have to guard it. I am reminded of a quote from Goethe that the
phrases men repeat incessantly end by becoming convictions
and ossify the organs of intelligence.
If Canada went 100 per cent nuclear for its electricity each
family share of spent fuel, or high level waste if you prefer that
term, would be seven ounces a year. This stuff is put into the
swimming pools at the plants. As somebody said, there are
21,000 tonnes of it around now. Within 10 years the
radioactivity is reduced by 90 per cent. Within 1,000 years in
dead storage the radioactive levels would be sufficiently
reduced to make it perfectly safe to eat a few spoonfuls of the
stuff.
You get these anti-technological myths about plutonium,
because there is plutonium in the waste. It is the deadliest thing
known to man. It is evil. God did not create it. That is garbage.
That stuff is an alpha emitter, for openers. You could wrap it in a
piece of tissue paper, put it in your pant's pocket and walk
around with it with impunity because it emits no gamma
radiation and no beta radiation. It is not dangerous. If you were
to eat a bunch of it, it is 50 times less poisonous than ordinary
arsenic trioxide. Mr. Speaker, you can look that up in any good
journal of toxicology.
9643
It has been studied in great detail. The toxicity of plutonium
on a weight dose basis is much less than that of many items
which are kept commonly around the home. It is lethal only if
breathed into the lungs or directly injected into the
bloodstream. Then it will kill you, and it will kill you quick,
but not as quickly as botulism poison, for example, which is
fairly abundant, and anthrax. Again, there are many natural
toxins which are more toxic than this horrible stuff that we all
have to worry about so much.
I see the Speaker starting to rise from his seat. I wish I could
have spent some time on the technical aspects of this. As you
have probably gathered I do have some knowledge of nuclear
energy production. Perhaps another day.
Mr. David Iftody (Provencher, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise
today to speak to Bill C-285 on behalf of the people of the
Whiteshell facility in my riding of Provencher and to say that
this bill would in effect eliminate Canada's nuclear industry.
The government believes that to do so would be
fundamentally wrong. Not only has the nuclear industry
provided a good return for investment to Canadians, and I will
get into that later, it has achieved international acclaim. That
recognition includes the recent Nobel prize to Dr. Bert
Brockhouse for pioneering scientific work carried out at the
Chalk River laboratories of AECL.
I would like to look at the myths and also address the facts of
the Canadian nuclear industry. Nuclear energy supplies 15 per
cent of Canada's nuclear electricity with a value of close to $4
billion.
(1905)
The hon. member for Kamloops stated earlier that the nuclear
industry provides 4 per cent of Ontario's power. That is not true.
The fact is the 22 reactors in Ontario provide 66 per cent of that
power.
Direct employment in the nuclear sector is estimated at
30,000 jobs and at least 10,000 jobs in other sectors depend
directly on the nuclear industry. Many of these jobs are highly
skilled and knowledge based, the kind of jobs that are consistent
and compatible with the new economy. They are the kind of jobs
that we are trying to develop and encourage in Canada. Indeed in
the last year we have created 437,000 of those kinds of jobs.
More than 150 companies across six provinces supply
manufacturing and engineering products or services. In addition
to those that we directly subcontract to, there are another 400 or
500 companies beyond that who subcontract to those 150
companies.
The recent sale of three Candus to Korea has generated more
than $1 billion in Canadian content, providing some 25,000
person-years of work over six years. The Korean Candu sale in
1992 was Canada's largest export order. It is well known to most
Canadians and certainly to all those interested in the nuclear
industry of the Prime Minister's most successful and recent trip
to China where letters of undertaking were signed with the
Chinese for two more reactors, estimated to bring back a total of
$4 billion worth of investment in Canada.
In 1991 the industry had a trade surplus of approximately
$500 million and that trend continues. Ontario Hydro estimates
that from 1965 to 1989 the nuclear industry saved the Canadian
economy $17 billion in foreign exchange. Were we to have
imported oil and coal, it would have cost the Canadian taxpayers
another $17 billion, to say nothing about the points addressed by
my hon. colleague from Renfrew about the acid rain emissions
and other kinds of global warming effects that would inevitably
occur from burning these other kinds of fuels. For each year of
the 1990s foreign exchange savings will amount to about $1
billion.
The federal government has supported the development of
Canada's nuclear energy capability. In the period between 1952
and 1994 the nuclear industry contributed at least $23 billion to
the gross domestic product. The federal government received
$700 million annually from the nuclear industry in the form of
income and sales taxes.
I can tell you of a similar study to the one that Ernst &
Whinney completed for the Government of Canada done in
Manitoba which demonstrates clearly that the investment that
the government makes in the facility close to where I live
generates $30 million of tax a year in the Manitoba economy
alone.
The private sector also benefits. In the four years between
1988 and 1992 private sector companies that provide nuclear
products and services had sales of almost $10 billion. The
performance of the research reactors has been the envy of the
world. The performance of the Candu reactor is second to none.
Out of the 369 power reactors which provide significant
amounts of electricity in 29 countries throughout the world there
are four Candus in the top 10 in lifetime performance. As was
pointed out earlier, the reactor at Point Lepreau, New Brunswick
is number one. That is a formidable record.
With the kind of high-tech job-creation initiative that is
inherent in the nuclear industry why the member for Kamloops
would want to oppose that kind of job creation and that kind of
record for Canadians and Canadian researchers.
Nuclear energy's contribution to electricity supply is not its
only benefit to humankind. It also contributes to the quality of
life. Its spinoff benefits to the environment and to medicine are
equally significant. I refer to clause 5 of this bill where the
member for Kamloops wants to keep isotope production but toss
out everything else.
9644
Let me make a couple of other points about some of the more
recent research and possibilities.
(1910 )
In the biotech area, for example, in terms of a radiation
facility we can design new kinds of drugs. A nuclear capacity
allows us to investigate small, molecular membrane interactions
which will help in terms of the health care, the medical field and
the life chances of Canadians who are unfortunate enough to
have trouble with cancer or other kinds of illnesses. This is a
record breaking and ground breaking kind of technology that is
important to us all.
The boron neutron capture therapy is another example. It is a
new mode of radio therapy that combines tumour seeking
components to destroy cancer cells and tumours. Is that wrong?
Is that bad? Is that not a worthy undertaking for the Canadian
economy? Is that not a legitimate expense for the Government of
Canada?
It was mentioned earlier by one of my colleagues that we have
built in AECL through one of its spin-off companies over 1,300
of the world's cobalt therapy machines. Each year 500 million
people are treated for cancer through those 1,300 machines. Is
that not a wonderful contribution and worth the effort of the
Government of Canada to participate with our world neighbours
in cancer treatment research? I think so.
The nuclear industry is an important factor in the sustainable
development equation. Nuclear electricity generation is clean,
burning an abundant fuel and has no other practical uses. It does
not emit the acid gases, as I referred to earlier, carbon dioxides
and particulates associated with fossil fuels.
Nuclear energy has been and continues to be a good
investment for Canadians and for Canada. It plays an important
role not only in providing clean electricity, but in the creation of
jobs, revenues and in spin-off benefits that have improved the
quality of life of Canadians and the people in other nations.
We talked earlier about some of the financial aspects in the
Ernst & Whinney study which I think was important and timely
in terms of allowing Parliament to tell Canadians what this kind
of investment has meant over the past 30 years.
As my hon. colleague from Renfrew pointed out earlier,
surely I could go to any Canadian taxpayer or the the Canadian
business person and say: ``For every dollar you give me, I
promise you a 400 or 500 per cent return, a 4:1 or 5:1 ratio''.
Surely that is a wise investment of Canadian tax dollars to bring
those revenues back to the Government of Canada, to create jobs
in Canada and to continue to place Canada and Canadians at the
front of the Canadian nuclear industry.
Mr. Wells: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I
understand our time is up for debate on this issue. Unfortunately
I am not going to get the opportunity to deliver the tremendous
speech I had prepared for this time.
I would like to go on record, with your permission, to advise
the House that I was going to speak in favour of Bill C-285 and
that I fully support the House referring this to the Standing
Committee on Finance for-
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): That is not a point of
order, but I guess the member was able to get his view on the
record.
Under right of reply, the member for Kamloops. No one else
will speak to the motion and this will close the debate in a
maximum of two minutes.
Mr. Riis: Mr. Speaker, before I wrap up my comments, my
hon. friend was obviously waiting for an opportunity to get in on
the debate and I think has a speech with him. Would it be
appropriate for the House to seek unanimous consent to have
him table his speech as part of Hansard?
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Riis: Mr. Speaker, there has obviously been a difference
of views presented here this afternoon. I respect the views of my
colleagues, although they are perhaps not exactly the same as
my own. Others are similar and supportive.
I make two requests. The other day the minister announced
that the government was to examine the whole nuclear industry
and the support of that. The question was put to her at that time
whether she would allow public input. At that point I think she
mumbled a bit.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Riis: She did not say she would. I say mumble because
she made no commitment.
(1915)
I would hope that after hearing the diverse views here she
would say that legitimate views exist in the country and that she
would agree to hold public hearings in all parts of the country to
allow the public an opportunity to present its views.
Just on the long shot that people are generous here tonight,
would there be any inclination on the part of my hon. friends to
provide unanimous consent to send this to committee for further
consideration?
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): There is no consent. The
time provided for the consideration of Private Members'
Business has now expired. Pursuant to Standing Order 96, the
order is dropped from the Order Paper.
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ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
[
Translation]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38
deemed to have been moved.
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez (Bourassa, BQ): Mr. Speaker, on
February 8, I put my main question to the Minister of
Citizenship and Immigration and a supplementary question to
the Deputy Prime Minister regarding the deportation of
Taramatie Ramsubhag and her three children, who are originally
from Trinidad and Tobago.
The minister then asked me to bring any new information to
his attention so that he could review this case on the basis on
humanitarian considerations, which I did on February 10, when I
personally gave a document to the minister and his
parliamentary secretary. Although Mrs. Ramsubhag and her
three children had adapted well to Quebec society, they were all
ruthlessly deported the same day.
Furthermore, the minister rejected, without any sign of
consideration or deference, a request by Quebec's Minister of
International Relations, Cultural Communities and
Immigration, Bernard Landry, to delay the deportation, to allow
the Quebec government to consider issuing a certificate of
selection.
The minister and his government did not show any respect or
consideration for the numerous women's rights organizations
begging them to grant Mrs. Ramsubhag permanent resident
status in Canada. These organizations include Assistance aux
femmes de Montréal, the Canadian Advisory Council on the
Status of Women, Vancouver Status of Women, the Ontario
Association of Interval and Transition Houses, the CNTU's
national committee on the status of women, the Quebec
women's federation, etc.
The minister showed an unacceptable insensitivity to this
refugee claimant. Yet, he gave her aggressor and ex-husband a
special permit allowing him to return to Canada. Is that the
Liberal government policy on women who are victims of
spousal abuse?
Mrs. Ramsubhag does not have a criminal record. Canadians
and Quebecers will never understand the policy applied by the
minister in this case, nor why immigration officers had to use
force to arrest three children aged 9, 11 and 13. Under the
circumstances, arresting these children without a warrant
amounts to kidnapping pure and simple. Mrs. Ramsubhag also
had to pay $800 to have her case reviewed by the same officials
who wanted to deport her.
During the election campaign in September 1993, the Deputy
Prime Minister promised that women who were victims of
family violence and applied for refugee status would no longer
be deported. However, so far at least two members of this group
of women in Montreal have already been deported. What about
the Deputy Prime Minister's commitment to defending women's
rights? That the Canadian government should take this kind of
action is appalling, especially the immigration officers who
arrested the three children. This attitude is in stark contrast with
the open and generous approach taken by the Government of
Quebec, which had applied for a stay of execution to consider
the possibility of giving the Ramsubhag family a Quebec
certificate of selection.
I wish to commend the many womens' groups that sent letters
to the minister, with copies to the critic for the Bloc Quebecois,
as part of the campaign to defend the case of Mrs. Ramsubhag. I
hope she will return to Canada, with her children, as a landed
immigrant.
[English]
Ms. Mary Clancy (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Citizenship and Immigration, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Canada is
universally recognized as having one of the fairest and most
generous refugee determination systems in the world.
We were the first country to establish formal guidelines on
gender persecution. It would not be, and the hon. member well
knows this, appropriate to go into the details of an individual
case on the floor of the House. However let me assure the hon.
member that the application was reviewed in a most thorough
and fair manner and the individual was found not to qualify as a
refugee.
(1920)
Similarly the case was reviewed in the light of our gender
persecution guidelines three times and was examined for any
special merit on humanitarian and compassionate grounds.
As the results of all these reviews were negative, the
individual was obliged to comply with the removal order. We
carried out the deportation order to uphold the integrity of the
immigration system as a whole. The person did not qualify as a
refugee but she is welcome to apply to immigrate to Canada
through the normal channels.
I understand the Government of Quebec has shown interest in
the case and under the Canada-Quebec agreement Quebec
officials are welcome to facilitate her application for
immigration to Canada for residence in the province of Quebec.
Hon. Audrey McLaughlin (Yukon, NDP): Mr. Speaker, on
December 6, the National Day of Remembrance and Action on
Violence Against Women, I asked the Deputy Prime Minister
whether her government was committed to ensuring the
continuation of core funding for essential services that help
prevent, treat and counsel against violence against women. The
minister answered at that time that her government would
respect its
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commitment to funding for women's shelters and other support
services.
However since that time the review by the Minister of Human
Resources Development has taken place. We have heard a lot of
prebudget comments being made. Indeed there are Liberal
members of Parliament who are advocating that these services
to women's groups be cut or reduced.
As well, the federal government is considering combining
transfers for social programs, health programs and
post-secondary education to provinces and territories. One of
the concerns in this regard of many groups across the country
including myself is that it could break the social consensus that
has been built in Canada. It has been one of the strengths of
Canada that says that regardless of where one lives
geographically and regardless of income there are certain
standards of service that one gets as a right of a Canadian
citizen.
It is also my feeling that these proposals to do this transfer
without national standards would in the end hurt women more
than men. Single mothers could lose many of the supports they
now have. We know that is the group with the largest number of
unemployed.
The Canadian Action Committee on the Status of Women
estimate that violence against women adds at least $1 billion a
year to the bill for health and related services in Canada. It is the
time for zero tolerance of violence against women. Yet I do not
see from the government or in the Deputy Prime Minister's
response a true commitment in this regard.
We have the Minister of Justice introducing gun control
legislation that he says will make women safer because of the
number of women who are victims of violence. Yet there is no
proof the legislation he is proposing would do that.
It seems hypocritical to me that there is one piece of
legislation that we are told by the Minister of Justice will make
women safer in their homes, again with no proof, and at the same
time they are looking at either not funding at all or severely
reducing funding for services that provide information,
counselling and protection for women who have been victims of
violence.
I was quite interested in doing my research to come across a
letter written in 1990 by the opposition at that time to a women's
centre. It stated that core funding cutbacks, that is those
proposed by the former Conservative government, would have a
devastating impact on women seeking shelter from family
violence. That letter, by the way, was written by the now
Solicitor General.
I want to ask again whether it is the policy of the government
to have a real plan to combat violence against women or simply
a public relations effort and whether in fact the government and
the minister will be committed to having core funding for
women's shelters to provide the services that help women who
may be victims of violence.
Ms. Mary Clancy (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Citizenship and Immigration, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have
already demonstrated our commitment.
In 1994-95 for the women's program of HRD Canada the
contribution was $4 million in core funding to a broad
cross-section of women's organizations across Canada which
carry out a clearly defined program of activities related to the
areas of economic equality, social justice and access and
participation.
In addition, the women's program and the disabled persons
participation program of the same department are involved in
the family violence initiative, providing approximately $5.5
million for community based initiatives to raise awareness and
promote institutional change.
I remind the hon. member, and I know how very deep her
commitment to this issue goes, that in the February 1994 budget,
the women's program budget for group funding was spared from
the 5 per cent across the board cuts made to other HRD
programs. That is commitment.
This government has also moved quickly toward prevention
of violence against women. We have taken prompt action in
several areas. The Minister of Justice today tabled gun control
legislation. As well there are the amendments to the Criminal
Code's peace bond provisions to be proclaimed into force on
February 15, 1995. These amendments will provide increased
protection to women and other victims of violence before the
courts.
That is commitment and it is a commitment we intend to carry
on with.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Pursuant to Standing
Order 38, the motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to
have been adopted.
Accordingly, this House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 2
p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 7.26 p.m.)