CONTENTS
Tuesday, May 9, 1995
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West) 12335
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West) 12335
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West) 12335
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West) 12335
Mr. Hill (Prince George-Peace River) 12336
Bill C-85. Consideration resumed of motion for secondreading 12336
Motion negatived on division: Yeas, 31; Nays, 135 12336
Mr. Harper (Calgary West) 12338
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West) 12341
Mr. Harper (Simcoe Centre) 12353
Mr. Hill (Prince George-Peace River) 12361
Mr. Bernier (Gaspé) 12364
Mr. Harper (Simcoe Centre) 12364
Ms. Brown (Oakville-Milton) 12365
Mr. Martin (LaSalle-Émard) 12366
Mr. Martin (LaSalle-Émard) 12367
Mr. Martin (LaSalle-Émard) 12367
Mrs. Tremblay (Rimouski-Témiscouata) 12367
Mrs. Tremblay (Rimouski-Témiscouata) 12367
Mr. Axworthy (Winnipeg South Centre) 12369
Mr. Axworthy (Winnipeg South Centre) 12369
Mr. Axworthy (Winnipeg South Centre) 12370
Mr. Axworthy (Winnipeg South Centre) 12370
Mr. Harper (Churchill) 12371
Mr. Axworthy (Winnipeg South Centre) 12371
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West) 12372
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West) 12372
Mr. Gagnon (Bonaventure-Îles-de-la-Madeleine) 12375
Bill C-85. Consideration resumed of motion for secondreading; and on motion thatquestion be
now put 12377
Mr. Breitkreuz (Yorkton-Melville) 12385
Mr. Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca) 12393
Mrs. Brown (Calgary Southeast) 12402
12335
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Tuesday, May 9, 1995
The House met at 10 a.m.
_______________
Prayers
_______________
[
English]
Mr. Peter Milliken (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of
the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have the honour to table, in both official languages
and pursuant to Standing Order 36(8), the government's
response to 42 petitions.
* * *
Hon. Audrey McLaughlin (Yukon, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I
have the honour to present a number of petitions representing all
provinces and territories expressing concern that breast cancer
has not been taken on as a national issue and a national priority,
given that 5,400 Canadian women will die this year from that
disease and about 17,000 Canadian women will be diagnosed.
The petitioners have asked that Parliament establish a toll free
information and support line. They urge the government to
begin consultations to establish parameters for a national
registry of drugs and medical devices and various forms of
biotechnology.
Mr. Ronald J. Duhamel (St. Boniface, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
these petitioners, while applauding the initiatives of
government and the CRTC to reduce violence and abuse in all of
its forms in the media, continue to emphasize the importance of
accentuating the efforts because they believe it is not necessary
in order to educate, to inform or to entertain. They also believe
that very often these depictions of abuse and violence are
contrary to their efforts to raise their children.
Once again they ask government and the CRTC to be
extremely vigilant.
[Translation]
The petitioners are responsible people who believe in the need
to reduce violence and abuse in the media.
[English]
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is a
pleasure to introduce a petition to Parliament. The petitioners
are calling on Parliament to enact legislation against serious
personal injury crimes being committed by high risk offenders
in support of my colleague's Bill C-240.
It is a pleasure for me because an incident inspired the
petition. There are 27 pages directly related to this. I suggested
to the people in that community that one of the most effective
ways of getting this on to the table was through a petition. This
shows a very responsible attitude on the part of the people from
Elkford.
Mr. Randy White (Fraser Valley West, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
have several petitions to place before the House.
The first asks that Parliament not pass Bill C-41 with section
718.2 as presently written and in any event not include the
undefined phrase sexual orientation, as the behaviour people
engage in does not warrant special considerations in Canadian
law.
Mr. Randy White (Fraser Valley West, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
another petition asks that Parliament reduce government
spending instead of increasing taxes and implement a taxpayer
protection act to limit federal spending.
Mr. Randy White (Fraser Valley West, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
another petition asks that Parliament delete section 718.2 of Bill
C-41 or at the very least delete the words sexual orientation and
permit a free vote in Parliament on Bill C-41.
(1010 )
Mr. Randy White (Fraser Valley West, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the last petition asks Parliament to act immediately to extend
12336
protection to the unborn child by amending the Criminal Code to
extend the same protection enjoyed by born human beings to
unborn human beings.
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is my honour
to present petitions today on behalf of people of Elk Island and
surrounding constituencies.
The first petition contains approximately 335 names. The
petitioners ask that Parliament not amend the human rights
code, the Canadian Human Rights Act or the charter of rights
and freedoms in any way which would tend to indicate societal
approval of same sex relationship or of homosexuality,
including amending the human rights code to include in the
prohibited grounds of discrimination the undefined phrase
sexual orientation.
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the second
petition contains 55 names. The petitioners ask that Parliament
ensure present provisions of the Criminal Code of Canada
prohibiting assisted suicide be enforced vigorously and that
Parliament make no changes in the law which would sanction or
allow the aiding or abetting of suicide or active or passive
euthanasia.
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George-Peace River, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I am today presenting a
petition on behalf of my constituents of Prince George-Peace
River asking Parliament to recognize the Reform Party of
Canada as the official opposition during the remainder of the
35th Parliament. They feel the rights and interests of all
Canadian citizens cannot be adequately protected and defended
by the Bloc Quebecois.
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West): Mr. Speaker, I would like
to present three more petitions if there is time.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Following a consultation
with the table officers I understand members should table all
petitions they might wish to when they are recognized in the first
instance and that they will not be recognized in the second
instance.
* * *
Mr. Peter Milliken (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of
the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I ask that all questions be allowed to stand.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
12336
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[
English]
The House resumed from May 8 consideration of the motion
that Bill C-85, an act to amend the Members of Parliament
Retiring Allowances Act and to provide for the continuation of a
certain provision, be read the second time and referred to a
committee.
Mr. Elwin Hermanson (Kindersley-Lloydminster, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Several members having
stood, I move:
That the hon. member for Calgary West be now heard.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Is it the pleasure of the
House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): All those in favour of the
motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): All those opposed will
please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): In my opinion the nays
have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Call in the members.
(The House divided on the motion, which was negatived on
the following division:)
(Division No. 211)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
Althouse
Bridgman
Chatters
de Jong
Epp
Gouk
Grey (Beaver River)
Grubel
Hanrahan
Harper (Calgary West)
Harper (Simcoe Centre)
Hayes
Hermanson
Hill (Macleod)
Hill (Prince George-Peace River)
Jennings
Johnston
Kerpan
Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca)
Mayfield
McClelland (Edmonton Southwest)
Meredith
Morrison
Penson
Ringma
Silye
Solberg
Solomon
White (Fraser Valley West)
Williams-31
12337
NAYS
Members
Alcock
Anawak
Arseneault
Assad
Assadourian
Asselin
Augustine
Axworthy (Winnipeg South Centre)
Bakopanos
Bellehumeur
Bellemare
Bergeron
Bernier (Beauce)
Bevilacqua
Blondin-Andrew
Bonin
Boudria
Brown (Oakville-Milton)
Brushett
Bryden
Bélair
Bélanger
Bélisle
Calder
Campbell
Catterall
Cauchon
Clancy
Collins
Copps
Cowling
Crawford
Culbert
Debien
Deshaies
Dingwall
Discepola
Dromisky
Duceppe
Duhamel
Dumas
Dupuy
Easter
Eggleton
English
Fewchuk
Fillion
Finestone
Flis
Gagliano
Gauthier (Roberval)
Gerrard
Godfrey
Godin
Goodale
Graham
Gray (Windsor West)
Grose
Guarnieri
Guimond
Harb
Hopkins
Ianno
Irwin
Jackson
Jacob
Jordan
Knutson
Lalonde
Lastewka
Lavigne (Beauharnois-Salaberry)
Lefebvre
Loney
Loubier
MacLaren
Malhi
Maloney
Manley
Marchi
Marleau
Martin (LaSalle-Émard)
Massé
McCormick
McLellan (Edmonton Northwest)
McTeague
McWhinney
Mercier
Mifflin
Milliken
Mitchell
Murphy
Murray
Nault
Nunez
Ouellet
Paradis
Parrish
Paré
Patry
Peric
Peters
Picard (Drummond)
Pickard (Essex-Kent)
Pillitteri
Proud
Reed
Regan
Rideout
Ringuette-Maltais
Robichaud
Robillard
Rocheleau
Rock
Rompkey
Scott (Fredericton-York-Sunbury)
Serré
Simmons
St-Laurent
St. Denis
Steckle
Stewart (Northumberland)
Szabo
Terrana
Thalheimer
Tremblay (Rimouski-Témiscouata)
Tremblay (Rosemont)
Ur
Valeri
Vanclief
Venne
Volpe
Walker
Whelan
Young
Zed-135
PAIRED-MEMBERS
Members
Adams
Baker
Bernier (Mégantic-Compton-Stanstead)
Bouchard
Caccia
Caron
Chrétien (Frontenac)
Crête
Dalphond-Guiral
Daviault
DeVillers
Dubé
Finlay
Gaffney
Gagnon (Québec)
Guay
Harvard
Hubbard
Kraft Sloan
Landry
Laurin
Lebel
Leblanc (Longueuil)
MacAulay
MacDonald
Maheu
Marchand
McGuire
McKinnon
O'Brien
Payne
Sauvageau
Speller
de Savoye
(1050)
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): I declare the motion
negatived.
Mr. Strahl: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I was
unavoidably detained. If I had been here I would have supported
my colleague's motion.
Mr. Don Boudria (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate in the debate this
morning.
What a difference a year makes. A little over a year ago
Reform Party MPs said they were to take 15 per cent pay cuts.
Then they pretended they wanted a reduction in MPs benefits.
Now Reform Party MPs are asking for a pay raise. Would you
believe it? Yes.
Some hon. members: Shame.
Mr. Boudria: Duplicity, thy name is Reform. That is what we
have this morning. We have some MPs who should be recalled
from the opposition side of the House.
Some hon. members: Recall.
Mr. Boudria: Most members of Parliament, if not all, are
worth every cent of their pay cheques. In principle members are
underpaid. The hon. member for Ottawa Centre put it very
eloquently. The Prime Minister has said it before. We all agree it
is true but that is not the point at the present time. In particular
one political party in the House, is saying two things at once.
An hon. member: Which one?
Mr. Boudria: I have to admit it is the Reform Party.
By coincidence this is the same party that wanted to be frugal.
When it came to Ottawa the first thing it asked for was larger
office space. This is the same party that came to Ottawa and
rejected a limousine and had one delivered by the back entrance.
12338
Shall I remind the House about the suitable venture of the
leader of that party? Let us not talk about free contributions to
people's RRSPs and other such ventures to enhance the salary
package of those who were claiming that MPs were overpaid.
[Translation]
No, Mr. Speaker, I can assure you that today's debate has
nothing to do with MPs' salaries and benefits. The debate held
today in this House is about honesty and openness. That is the
real issue being debated in this House.
As we can see, some members of a political formation across
the way are now getting it in the neck with regard to openness,
honesty and sincerity in this House.
We have been debating this bill for several hours already.
[English]
Last week Reform Party MPs proposed meaningless
amendments to the bill because they did not want it to go to
committee. Why did they not want it to go to committee?
Because they did not really want a pay decrease. They wanted a
pay increase. Now we know why they did not want the bill to go
to committee. They produced dilatory motions to stop the bill
from going to committee.
This morning they tried their best again to stop the bill from
going to committee. It will not happen again. I move:
That the question be now put.
Mr. Stephen Harper (Calgary West, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
am almost embarrassed to rise after the speech of the member
for Glengarry-Prescott-Russell.
(1100)
His comments clearly indicate the kinds of problems we have.
Reform Party members, I will remind members, took pay cuts
over the last year. Other members of Parliament did not do that.
Members of the Reform Party have committed to opt out of the
MP pension plan. We anticipate that very few other members of
Parliament will do that. There will be a few honourable people
on the other side.
Perhaps one of the reasons Reform Party members are willing
to do these things is that unlike the previous speaker and many
others on the other side, Reform Party members had no trouble
before they were here and will have no trouble after they are here
finding other employment and making a decent living.
In any case, let me address the bill before us today, Bill C-85,
an act to amend the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances
Act, which is of course the MP pension. These amendments have
been a long time in coming. For 18 months this government has
been promising changes. Finally we see the marginal changes
that we see now.
The Reform Party has long called for changes to the overly
generous pensions for MPs. Last November 22, I and many of
my colleagues spoke in support of the motion of the hon.
member for Beaver River, asking the government to replace the
current members of Parliament retirement allowance with a plan
reflecting the current norms for private sector pensions. This
was rejected by both the Liberals and the separatists. Clearly,
the Liberals' new proposal, the freedom 55 plan, does not
accomplish this.
Before I speak to some of the specifics of this bill in the few
minutes I have, I would like to make it clear that I personally
would support a fair pension plan. My wife and I just purchased
our first home and we are planning for our future, but I could not
go home and look my wife or my constituents in the eye if I
opted into a plan like the one offered in Bill C-85. Instead, I will
put my own money into an RRSP, just like millions of other
Canadians, and hopefully the government will not see fit to cut
those again, as it has in the past.
Let us take a look at how this plan evolved from the plan
introduced by Prime Minister Louis St. Laurent in 1952 to the
monstrosity that is proposed today. According to Mr. St.
Laurent, the original plan was ``to be actuarially sound and a
matter that would operate without any further charge on the
public funds than the matching of contribution to be made by all
members of Parliament''.
Mr. St. Laurent indicated that the plan was never really
intended at the time to be a pension per se. According to Mr. St.
Laurent, it was to provide for members in their later years and to
reward them for their public service.
At that time members contributed 6 per cent of what was an
annual $4,000 salary in return for an allowance equal to only 4.5
per cent of their indemnity if they retired after serving more than
two Parliaments.
In 1963 the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act
was amended to require members to contribute 6 per cent of
their $12,000 indemnity per annum. Rather than the flat
percentage allowance, benefits were increased to 2.5 per cent of
the member's annual indemnity up to a maximum of 75 per cent.
In 1965 additional provisions were made for a retirement
allowance plan to allow senators to participate at a 3 per cent
benefit accrual rate. Members will recall that at that time the
term for senators was changed from life to age 75, so for the first
time there was provision for retirement in the Senate.
It was really in 1981 that the changes to the benefit rate for
MPs began to make this plan the obscene one we have today.
12339
This was when the benefit accrual rate was increased to 5 per
cent and the generous inflation protection, the full inflation
protection we now have, was implemented.
We can see from the report on the administration of the
Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act for 1983 that
while it varied from year to year, the plan kept up the appearance
of a one-to-one member-to-government contribution ratio
from 1952 all the way to 1992. However, as we know, this was an
illusion due to accounting practices, and it vanished in 1991-92
with the $158 million top-up that was needed to the plan. This
actuarial adjustment credit was needed to comply with
legislative changes in Bill C-55 at the time requiring that
adequate contributions be credited to meet the costs of pension
obligations as they accrue.
(1105)
With this top up, the cost of the plan to taxpayers in the form
of interest on the plan was also increased. Many people do not
know that the government does in fact pay a generous rate of
interest on this account, which is of course a cost to the
taxpayers but which is not included in the total cost the
government admits is involved in this plan.
With the top up in 1992, the unrecognized cost was $3.4
million. It has gradually escalated to $20.4 million in 1992-93
and then to $23 million in 1993-94. It is also interesting to note
that the rate at which the government pays interest into the MP
pension plan, about 10 per cent, while not an unreasonable rate,
is considerably higher than the 4 per cent it will pay when it
returns contributions to members who choose to opt out or who
do not meet the six-year vesting period.
Bill C-55 also caused the division of the members' pension
plan into two parts to achieve compliance with changes to the
Income Tax Act regarding the rules for registered pension plans.
Now we have one portion that conforms with rules for
registration and the other a ``retirement compensation
arrangement'' that does not. This portion has much higher
associated costs for the plan because of the refundable tax paid
on it. Bill C-85 does not correct this.
Clearly the 1952 idea of providing politicians with a financial
buffer to compensate them for periods of employment
uncertainty is contrary to the reality our constituents now face.
In the 1990s the concept of job security has all but disappeared,
not just for Canadians in the broad workforce but even for
Canadians in the most traditionally secure areas of the public
sector.
Similarly unacceptable is the argument that MPs are
underpaid and thus must get bigger retirement benefits. If the
government feels MPs are underpaid, then the government
should address that issue in a transparent manner, not through
the backward route of an overly generous pension plan. The
Reform Party's position on this is clear: there should be no
increase in MP salaries or office budgets until this country's
budget is balanced.
As many private sector employers and some of the provincial
legislatures have obviously realized, this type of plan, a defined
benefit plan, is very costly to employers and the costs are
difficult to accurately predict. There is no real relationship
between how much a member contributes to the plan and the
benefits a member receives.
Several provincial governments have recently taken drastic
measures to scale back or to eliminate traditional pension
benefits for politicians. Prince Edward Island rolled back
pension benefits and then wound up the plan completely.
Similarly, the Alberta government lowered the benefits for some
of the recipients already collecting their pensions and then
ended the plan for future MLAs.
It is interesting to note that the benefit accrual rate for Alberta
MLAs prior to this roll back was 4 per cent, the rate now being
proposed by the government. A study had found that the net
value of one year's worth of pension accrual for an MLA was
$28,733 under that plan, compared to an equivalent $9,034 in
the private sector. For the federal plan we are presently under
and under which many members of the House will still collect
benefits, this number was $42,741 a year.
The Manitoba legislature will implement reforms far in
excess of those proposed by this government following the next
election. Their pension plan arrangement will be replaced by an
RRSP savings plan arrangement where taxpayers only have to
match each member's contribution.
Even here in Ontario the provincial Liberals in their ``son of
red book'' promised that if they are elected they will scrap the
Ontario legislative pension plan and replace it with a group
RRSP, exactly what the Reform Party proposes. We saw it in
1993 and we are seeing now in Ontario how different Liberals
are when they are running for election as compared to when they
are actually sitting in a Parliament.
Mr. Bob Ringma (Nanaimo-Cowichan, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to rise today in the House to address Bill
C-85, amendments to the MPs' pension plan. At the same time, I
share a bit of shame in the House, having heard the atrocious
remarks of the member for Glengarry-Prescott-Russell.
(1110)
I address the citizens of Canada. I hope, ladies and gentlemen
of the public, you read Hansard of today to listen to what the
member for Glengarry-Prescott-Russell had to say. In that
you will hear a perversion of the facts, where that member
deliberately went after the Reform Party to twist things around
and indicate that what we were talking about here was aug-
12340
mentation of MPs' salaries rather than the pension plan, which
is the thing we are directly addressing.
One should not get emotional. This should be a place where
one addresses logic and reason and brings facts out into the
open. I find that really the remarks of that member typify what is
wrong with the political process in Canada.
We are talking about a pension plan. We believe sincerely that
the pension plan given to MPs is simply far too generous. We are
speaking on behalf of the Canadian public in that regard. They
say it is too generous, it is gold plated, we should cut it back.
What the government is doing to respond to the public is simply
not good enough, and that is our point.
In any event, the government has finally found the courage to
tackle the problem, if insufficiently. I am saddened that the
Liberal fat pack has refused to abandon its place at the public
trough, which has resulted in what is really a very poor excuse
for MP pension reform. There is insufficient reform in that bill.
In their 1991 book, The Great Reckoning, authors James Dale
Davidson and Lord William Rees-Mogg wrote: ``In the past,
those societies that have treated persons differently, based upon
what they are, rather than what they do, have faltered
economically, and opportunity has been foreclosed for almost
everyone''. This quotation is appropriate to our debate here
today, for with the MP pension plan we have a group of 295 men
and women who are being treated differently simply because
they are members of Parliament. How are they treated
differently? Under this revised pension sham, MPs can collect a
pension at the age of 55. In the private sector, most people have
to wait until they are 65.
Even with lowering the annual accrual rate to 4 per cent, it
means that this plan proposed by the government is twice as rich
as that of the plan of the average Canadian worker. The MP plan
is fully indexed against inflation, which is something that is
virtually unheard of in the private sector.
Why does the Liberal government and its gang of present and
future trough feeders feel that they have a right to be treated so
much better than the average Canadian? While it may be true
that this bill will fulfil the red book promise to reform the plan,
it is a hollow and purely symbolic reform.
For example, the red book speaks of eliminating double
dipping, the practice of collecting an MP pension while earning
a government paycheque, usually for a patronage appointment.
The government says that their proposal will eliminate double
dipping. But if we look closely at the bill we see it simply defers
the practice. Pension benefits continue to grow but are deferred
for as long as the patronage position lasts.
(1115 )
Once again we see that these amendments are nothing but
smoke and mirrors. The Canadian public is incensed at the
current obscenely generous gold plated pension plan for MPs. It
is equally outraged by these amendments which merely
downgrade the gold plated plan to a silver plated one.
The fact that politicians have a bad reputation in Canada is
largely due to this type of largesse. The government had the
opportunity to address the massive public concern but refused to
do so. It blew it. Like most other things the Liberal government
has done, it reacted in a half hearted foot dragging way. It has
proven once again that if the public wants real reform they had
better send in some real Reformers.
As a real Reformer, I oppose this plan. However, I am not here
to simply criticize. As a Reformer, I also have an alternative.
Last year I asked my constituents about MP pension reform. I
asked how long an MP should have to serve before getting a
pension and at what age. We asked this question widely in my
constituency.
Based on the responses I received I presented my constituents
with a proposal to revamp the plan. Support for this proposal
was ten to one in favour. Since that time I have been working on
the plan on behalf of the people of Nanaimo-Cowichan and I
am proud to say that the process is now complete. Yesterday the
collective voice of my constituents was heard on this issue in the
House when I introduced my private member's bill.
In comparing the government's farcical attempt at pension
reform with that proposed by my constituents in
Nanaimo-Cowichan we see many glaring discrepancies. For
instance, under the Liberal plan taxpayers contribute $3.50 for
every dollar put in by the MP. Under the Nanaimo-Cowichan
plan, taxpayers contribute nothing since they are already paying
the MP's salary. Under the Liberal plan the pension fund is
managed by the government, which has a worse fiscal record in
management than Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker. Under my
constituents' proposal the pension fund will be administered by
the private sector.
Under the Liberal plan, taxpayers are on the hook to eligible
MPs for life. Under our plan MPs would receive a one time lump
sum payment consisting of the money which they contributed
plus the interest accumulated, which could be considerable.
Under the Liberal proposal the Liberal fat pack maintains its
front row reservation at the public trough while newer MPs will
be moved back to the second row, thus creating a two tiered
pension plan. Under the Nanaimo-Cowichan plan all MPs are
treated equally, as no one is entitled to belly up to the trough.
12341
In comparison with the so-called reform package put forward
by the Liberal government there is only a one-time opportunity
to opt out of the plan. That means that all future MPs will be
forced to swill from the public trough, like it or not. Our
proposal allows MPs to opt out of the plan at their discretion.
Liberals, like the hon. Deputy Prime Minister and her fat pack
colleagues, say they have worked hard for their gold plated
pensions and deserve what they have coming. I trust that the
voters are wise enough to see through the smoke and mirrors to
discover the hypocrisy and deceit behind the bill so that the
Liberal fat packers get what is coming to them.
A true democracy must be based on quality citizens who come
forward to serve their country out of a genuine desire to make
our society a better place in which to live, not out of a desire to
better one's own standard of living.
(1120 )
I do not believe that politics should be a lifelong profession. It
should be a momentary detour in one's career path.
Unfortunately, the bill to which we are addressing ourselves
today promotes the former and does nothing to restore
Canadians' faith in their politicians. The citizens of Canada will
judge the government of today on this bill.
I urge all members of the House to abandon this frivolous bill,
although I know I am not going to get much reaction from across
the way. I urge members to take a long, hard look at the proposal
put forward on behalf of the constituents of
Nanaimo-Cowichan in the bill I introduced yesterday.
Mr. Randy White (Fraser Valley West, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
it is a pleasure to speak to this bill today.
When I listened to the words the government whip had about
the Reform Party and this pension plan, it makes me ashamed to
be sitting in the House listening to that kind of poor rhetoric
from the Liberal government. People in my riding of Fraser
Valley West living in Langley, Aldergrove and Abbotsford must
be shaking their heads today wondering what is happening in
that place where they are supposed to be running this country.
What is happening in this place is a major disappointment.
When I was elected I thought I could come to the House and try
to change this government and get it off things like this fat
pension plan. I thought just maybe we could try the concept of a
triple-E Senate where senators would be elected, effective and
would have equal representation. I thought we could deal with
things like balancing the budget. I thought we could look at
trying to reduce the number of frivolous grants that are given out
year after year after year. I thought I could effect a change in
patronage and ethics and get the government to change.
However, everything I have just mentioned is still happening
is still supported by this government, even though it knows it is
wrong. The Liberals sat on this side of the House in the last
session of Parliament and belittled the Conservatives for it and
here the Liberals are still at it.
The Liberals made a promise in a document called the Liberal
red book. The Liberal red book actually came out during the
election. It was not a long term plan they had. It was an election
tool. The promise was to make some changes in this pension
plan.
I will go through these changes. Essentially that was a facade.
The government has told the Canadian people it is changing
things but it is not doing it. They are weak changes. They are not
real reforms to the pension plan. It is just a facade to make the
folks out there think that something is really happening here.
What is really happening out there is that people are overtaxed,
frustrated and fed up. It is no wonder from listening to this kind
of rhetoric on pension plans.
I could call these Liberals hypocritical for saying one thing
and doing another, but I will not. I could call them trough
slurping pension planners for making an absolutely abysmal
excuse in trying to change a pension plan, but I will not. I could
call them overindulging politicians for taking more than what
they are worth, but I will not. What I will call these Liberals and
this government are plain bad managers.
(1125 )
Organizations in Canada that work in developing pension
plans for their employees work within the Income Tax Act, as I
have done in developing a pension plan for my employees. I give
what is fair and reasonable, usually a dollar for a dollar. That is
not what is happening here. Here government members are
telling Canadians that they are going to reduce some benefits
and save Canadians money while at the same time they milk the
system for all it is worth. I think that is disgusting.
Let us think about what the Liberals are developing. They
want to establish a future minimum age of 55. I checked the
records and the majority of parliamentarians in the House are
already 55 years old. What kind of smoke are they putting out
here? They want to eliminate double dipping. That is nice. They
are saying that when they give the patronage jobs to their
friends, they will not give them the $130,000 or $180,000 plus a
pension. They will hold the pension back.
What the government does not really say about this is that the
pension members earn while they are MPs is still accumulating
compound interest. When they get out of the patronage job, the
double dipping job they are talking about, they get the MPs
pension updated and indexed. They also get all the returns from
the patronage position. Talk about being at the trough.
12342
The Liberals have talked about lowering the rate at which the
benefits accrue. They currently accrue at 5 per cent. It is 5 per
cent of $64,000 for every year of service. They said: ``We are
going to do something here. We will bring it down to 4 per
cent''. What Liberal members are not saying is that 4 per cent is
still double the rate of private sector pension plans, registered
plans under the Income Tax Act. They also do not say that there
are special provisions in the Income Tax Act to make way for
that.
If we want to reform a pension plan or anything else in the
House, we had better start a real reform, not the half baked idea
of telling people one thing and doing another. Hypocrites.
They have lowered the rate at which individual members
contribute to the plan from 11 per cent to 9 per cent. Very good.
Members here will get a 2 per cent return, more cash in their
hands. Congratulations. At the same time that is being done,
what really happens is the contributions they are giving are
really going to cost more to the taxpayer.
Reform Party members will opt out. Now what are they to do?
In this pension plan they need all the contributions to make it
viable. If we opt out of it they will be short of cash. They have
taken 2 per cent of the cash coming in from members so who are
they to hit? That is right folks, the Canadian taxpayer. That is
who is to pay for it.
They have given us an opportunity to opt out. I am opting out
of this plan. I have a family to look after as well and I do not have
a job to go to at the end of my parliamentary career. That is just
fine with me. That is just fine with my wife and family. We will
go back to our riding and we will hold our heads a little higher.
For those people who forced at least some change, the Liberal
government is saying: ``We will make it very difficult for you
when you opt out. You can never get back in''. That is fine. I can
live with that. ``We will give you a 4 per cent return''. Well, that
is good too.
(1130)
They are not saying that there is absolutely no hope for
anybody opting out of the plan to make a move to get back in.
People are entitled to change their minds, but the government
has to be very careful about what it is doing. This is not an act to
punish. If people want to opt out, let them opt out. The
government has a bad management style that will not be
forgotten.
Finally let me say that the RRSP limits this year were
supposed to be $14,500 for the average Canadian citizen but the
government kept it at $13,500. Folks out there get a little less
and folks across here get a little more. Is that a great example
you set?
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Order. Before the hon.
member for Fraser Valley West concludes his remarks in the
brief period of time left, I recognize there are strongly held
views on the issue. It is vigorous debate, but I urge you and
remind you that all interventions must be done through the Chair
or the Speaker and not directly across the floor.
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West): Mr. Speaker, this is an
emotional debate and deservedly so. Many people believe that
the this pension plan is gold plated and is too large. I am
convinced that some Liberal members probably feel the same
way but cannot make change because their party says: ``This is
the way it is to be''.
That is unfortunate but I sincerely hope the next time we go to
the polls people remember what happened in the House this year
on this issue and in this debate.
Mr. Jim Silye (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, in the
last 24 hours I have learned much about why many politicians
can talk so much and say so little. I have learned much about
why many politicians say so little in failing in their attempt to be
all things to all people.
I have also learned why many politicians prefer to say nothing
at all, for if a politician says nothing there are no words that can
be used against him or her to deflect from the substance of
debate.
Yesterday in the House, instead of answering a reasonable
question from my Reform colleague from Kootenay East, the
President of the Treasury Board decided that the only response
required was to refer to comments I made in the House on May 4.
Suddenly the debate is no longer about pensions but about the
comments of a member of the House who raised the
compensation issue. The issue was raised in my capacity as an
individual and not as a matter of Reform Party policy and was so
qualified. The issue was raised by other members of the House
from other parties during the course of the debate. It was an
issue that all speakers recognize was separate from the main
issue of debate, that being the pension of parliamentarians.
This is all quite regrettable. It is important to at least
reference the issue of our basic compensation since the studies
dealing with our pensions do not address them in isolation but
rather in the context of the other moneys and benefits we
receive.
The issue of our compensation was raised by the President of
the Treasury Board when he introduced legislation and stated
that they could not wait for the day when we could deal with
salary increases as suggested in the Sobeco, Ernst and Young
study. They could not afford them then. While the total
compensation approach outlined in the study is worthy of
further discussion it is not functionally possible at this time, as
reported in Hansard of May 4.
The position of the President of the Treasury Board is entirely
consistent with Reform Party policy. The Liberals campaigned
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in 1993 on a general promise of changes to the MP pension plan
without specifics being provided.
(1135)
We campaigned in 1993 with specifics provided on how we
would change MP pension. As well we provided specifics on
why the compensation of MPs must continue to be frozen. We
said explicitly that until a balanced budget was achieved the
salaries and expenses of government MPs and their offices
would be frozen. Our position has not changed.
I was not the only member raising compensation issues in the
House during the course of debate on pensions. The Liberal
member for Wellington-Grey-Dufferin-Simcoe was quite
explicit. In Hansard of May 4 he stated:
We cannot give ourselves a raise when we are telling everyone else to hold the
line.
Referring to the Ernst Young report he stated:
However the report recommended an increase in pay for members of
Parliament. I would be more than happy, if that happened, to see the pensions
done away with and work within an RRSP program.
This was a Liberal member speaking and another Reform
suggestion. Another Liberal copies Reform award might be due
to the hon. member. He expressed sentiments not unlike those
expressed by Reform members for many years. I agree with him
as I agree with the President of the Treasury Board that the issue
of MPs salaries is a matter to be addressed at some later time. In
this respect we have all perhaps clouded the issue of the merits
or demerits of the current pension plan proposals by raising
salary issues at the same time.
To the extent that I have clouded issues by raising such issues
I must express regret. However, I believe it regrettable the
President of the Treasury Board would use my comments to
avoid addressing issues of substance in the pension debate, one
of the most important debates in the current Parliament.
To paraphrase a recent hit by the reunited ``Eagles'', a band
with which the hon. Liberal House leader is certainly familiar if
not the President of the Treasury Board, I respectfully ask the
President of the Treasury Board to get over it, to quit playing his
petty partisan politics, to get on with the debate of MP pensions,
and to let us get on to the substance of the issues with respect to
our pension plan.
The Liberals think they have us. They think we will not talk
about it any more because of what I suggested in debate in the
House over a week ago. We will not run away from the issue. We
will address it.
For the Liberals who are present and listening to the debate,
the Canadian public is totally fed up with self-serving MPs
giving themselves a fat cat, gold plated, three tier trough regular
for the old folks, the old veterans; trough light for the class of
1988 and onward and the ones from 1993; and trough stout for
cabinet ministers who can contribute anything they want down
the road. A pension plan like that for life is ridiculous.
Why will the President of the Treasury Board not introduce
some ideas about a matching contribution plan, a one for one?
For every dollar wonderful deserving MPs put into a pension
plan the government matches by a dollar. Why does the
government not do that? It cannot do that because it has to be
better. The Liberals think they are a better class of citizen now
they are elected, that they deserve three and a half times, and
that they deserved a six to one plan before that.
There is no question the President of the Treasury Board is
touting a proposal on the basis of sophistry just like the Minister
of Finance, using clever but misleading arguments to lead to a
false and wrong conclusion. The Canadian public is fed up with
the lack of courage the Liberal government is showing and the
lack of integrity when it promised integrity in the red book. How
does it show integrity for the Liberals to talk about a proposal of
another member and call it a salary increase when all we are
talking about is looking at the pension plan which is too
generous.
The number one objective of my Reform colleagues in the
House and I is to kill the Cadillac pension plan. The government
is not interested in it. The Liberals think they deserve more.
They think they desperately have to save Sheila, the Deputy
Prime Minister, so that she could get if she were to leave next
month $2.7 million. They have to protect Mr. Boudria, the man
who worked-
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Order. I am quite
prepared to understand that in the enthusiasm of debate one
member's name might slip but when another is used it becomes a
little suspicious. I caution members to refer to one another by
riding or by ministerial portfolio.
Mr. Silye: Mr. Speaker, as I said our objective is to kill the
MP pension plan because it is too generous, too extravagant.
Mr. Hermanson: It is illegal.
Mr. Silye: It is illegal in the private sector as well. The
Liberals want to protect $2.7 million for the Deputy Prime
Minister and $2.2 million for the chief government whip. These
are the millionaires, including the Minister for Human
Resources Development. The minister of public works will get
$3 million; the minister of immigration, $3 million; and the
member for Broadview-Greenwood, $1 million. He has a good
proposal for tax reform but the government is more interested in
its self-serving MP pension plan than it is in tax reform. It will
not even give him the time of day.
12344
(1140)
We are against the pension plan for a simple reason. It raises a
double standard. Why do we as MPs now deserve more and
better than what is out there in the private sector? Would the
President of the Treasury Board tell me that? If the Canadian
public wants MPs to have a pension plan, why not one that is the
same as the private sector dollar for dollar? Why can MPs
contribute 9 per cent while in the private sector it is 5 per cent?
Why not 5 per cent and 5 per cent? Why a full pension at age 55
when in the private sector 65 years of age qualifies and if the
pension is taken before that age the person receives less?
It is just common sense and it will not apply to the House. The
Liberals will not accept it. All I can say is that I do not
understand the mentality of the 100-plus Liberal rookies who
are here. Veteran politicians are laughing all the way to the bank
because they received their six to one. It was backdated to 1988
to make sure the member for Beaver River had the option to opt
out. We have the option to opt out. In 1997, if there is an
election, the new Reformers who come here will not have the
option to opt out. That is hypocritical. That is something the
Canadian public will not forget. I am frustrated to no end. When
these people were in opposition they indicated that the
Conservative government lacked integrity and lacked morals.
I am really starting to wonder if the government is interested
in the best interests of the Canadian public. It has an opportunity
like the Reform Party to opt out of the Cadillac pension plan.
The rookies have an opportunity to stuff it in the faces of the
veterans and say: ``No, you are not going to catch us''. If they do
not opt out, I am very confident the Canadian public will vote
them out. I think that is what will happen.
In summary, these people were elected to restore integrity as
promised in the red book. By trying to rush debate on the issue
through the House without allowing time for proper debate and
without allowing the hon. member for Calgary West to speak
first today, they are trying to deny an opportunity to allow us to
detail fully what they are trying to foist and hoist upon the
Canadian taxpayer.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is
a pleasure to address this bizarre piece of legislation, Bill C-85.
I want to paint a bit of a picture for people.
If someone told an ordinary Canadian citizen that he had a
great business proposition, that for every dollar put into an
investment he would get back $3.50, he would say that it was
amazing and great. He would want to do it. Not only that. It
would be guaranteed by the Government of Canada. We are not
talking about 10 per cent, 8 per cent or 5 per cent on a Canada
savings bond. We are talking about a 350 per cent return on
investment.
The only problem is that it is not available to the average
Canadian citizen. It is only available to members of Parliament.
It is disgusting. It is the height of hypocrisy. My hon. friend
from Macleod said: ``They were not hypocrites but hypo-grits
when they proposed this''.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Solberg: I thought it was a very good line. I give
accolades to the member for Macleod.
Apart from the puns, Bill C-85 has a very serious side. That is
what concerns me. Bill C-85 is way out of step on several
counts. I want to talk about those for a moment and the faulty
premise on which this bill is built.
(1145)
Two years ago when I was knocking on doors in my
constituency, in Brooks, Taber and Medicine Hat-and
Medicine Hat in particular because it is a retirement town-one
of the topics which people talked about was that they were sick
and tired of the MP pension plan.
They did not say: ``We are sick of the aspect which says that
taxpayers kick in $6 and MPs kick in one''. They said: ``We are
sick of the double standard''. They did not say that they wanted
3.5 times instead of 6 times what MPs kick in. They said: ``We
expect a pension plan like anybody else's, where if the employee
puts in a dollar maybe the employer will contribute a dollar, but
nothing richer than that''.
I took that to heart. Members of the Reform Party took it to
heart. However, the government has completely ignored it. It
has come up with another form of padding its members' pockets
at the expense of taxpayers. It is crazy. This bill is completely
out to lunch when it comes to respecting the wishes of the
taxpayers. We are here to serve the taxpayers, not to serve
ourselves.
The hon. member for Kingston and the Islands is sitting over
there scrambling to defend his trip to the trough. He is
completely out of step with what Canadians are saying.
Another thing that Canadians mentioned to us is the huge
debt. The debt at that time was $480 billion. It has now rocketed
up to $550 billion. Surely members have some sympathy for the
long-suffering taxpayer when they are considering the
remuneration which they give themselves. However, no
empathy was shown when the government proposed Bill C-85.
It is another trip to the trough. It is a minor improvement over
what the previous government gave to its members, but it is so
far out of step that it defies logic. It defies description.
Medicine Hat to a large extent is a retirement town. In many
cases its people exist on pensions. They find this debate
absolutely unbelievable. The government will be talking this
fall when the finance ministers convene about how to change the
CPP to make it actuarially sound. The OECD says that the
12345
retirement age will have to be pushed to age 79 to make it
actuarially sound.
However, the government is proposing that we have pensions
which are fully payable at age 55 with contributions from the
taxpayer which are three and a half times what MPs have to put
in. People find that absolutely unbelievable. I defy members
across the way to come to my communities of Medicine Hat,
Brooks, Taber, Bow Island, Tilley and all the other communities
and justify this outrageous pension plan.
One subject which I wish to address is the whole idea of MPs'
remuneration. It is well past the time when MPs should be
allowed to set their own remuneration package. This bill does
not deal with that. It completely ignores that. MPs and elected
officials in other jurisdictions are about the only people in the
country who are allowed to set their own wages and
remuneration packages.
The president of General Motors or a teacher or a business
person who owns a business cannot set his or her own wage.
Business people are accountable to customers. They have to pay
their suppliers. They can draw a wage based on all of that, but at
the end of the day they have to depend on their customers and
their employees before they can decide what kind of
remuneration package they can have.
According to the government, MPs are above that. Bill C-85
makes no mention of it. It suggests that MPs should have a
remuneration package which is based simply on the whims and
caprices of the government. It has nothing to do with reality. It is
an argument entirely in the abstract. The government has no
perspective at all when it talks about the remuneration package
or at least the member of Parliament pension plan. It is crazy.
(1150)
One of the things that MPs are supposed to do is to talk to their
constituents on a regular basis so they can find out where their
constituents stand on these types of issues. It is a fundamental
responsibility of a member of Parliament. However, none of that
has been done when it comes to Bill C-85.
Instead, the government has decided to eschew the opinions
of the public. It has said it does not want to hear from the public
on this. It does not want to find out what the public thinks. What
it wants to do is set up its own pension plan that is far richer than
anything that is available in the private sector. If Canadians do
not like it, that is tough luck because that is what the government
will do.
When we knock on doors people are so cynical about
politicians they will not listen to the first word we say about
serious issues. All they believe we are doing is padding our own
nest. I cannot argue against that. How can we argue against what
the public is saying when it is absolutely true?
It is a well established tradition in this place and the
government has done nothing to improve on it despite all of its
promises in the red book. It has failed to restore integrity which
is important and critical so people will respect and ultimately
have faith in their government. This is a necessary step so that
people will willing bring forward ideas for the important
debates that need to occur so that the government enjoys the
faith of the people. It is a very important aspect that the
government has, I guess, intentionally ignored. It has pushed
ahead with Bill C-85 and is actually now trying to invoke its
own form of closure by not allowing a free and full debate.
The Reform Party has all kinds of concerns with this
legislation. I want to touch on a fairly technical but still
important part of it. The government has really tried, in my
judgment, to deceive people by saying it is going to cut the
contribution level down from 11 per cent to 9 per cent.
However, as my hon. friend from Fraser Valley West pointed
out, there will not be enough money coming in. Reform MPs are
opting out. I want to make it very clear that Reform MPs are
opting out of this heinous plan. However, because of that the
government is going to end up having to draw on more taxpayer
dollars to make this thing fly. That is crazy.
The government has failed to consult with the people. It is
padding its own pockets, padding its own nest, looking after
itself and refusing to go to the people on an issue that is very
important to them. It is an issue of integrity.
Mr. Hermanson: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. This
is a rather important debate and I do not believe we have a
quorum. I only see four Liberals in the House for this important
debate. It is rather disappointing.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Resuming debate. The
hon. member for Cariboo-Chilcotin.
Mr. Philip Mayfield (Cariboo-Chilcotin, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the roots of this Chamber stem back to its namesake in
London, Britain's own House of Commons. Those words
``House of Commons'' refer to the purpose of this institution; to
represent the commons or the commoners within government.
We carry on that tradition today by representing grassroots
Canadians from all walks of life. Or do we? It is a question each
of us should ask before engaging in this debate over MPs'
pensions. Are we representing the same Canadians who elected
us to this Chamber?
Two years ago Canadians clearly demanded change. After the
1993 election the once Progressive Conservatives were pushed
to the backbenches of Canadian history and these Chambers
greeted two new parties. The party that I am proud to be a
member of, the Reform Party of Canada, promised to think,
work and act differently. We started by putting our policies on
paper. First in the blue book and then economizing by putting
12346
this on the blue sheet long before the Liberals came out with
their own red ink book.
(1155)
We promised to truly fulfil our role as representatives of the
people, going against our own party's official positions if
necessary to represent our local electorate. In contrast,
Canadians have seen how the Liberals handle MPs who strive to
represent their own constituents. They are tossed from
committees and bombarded with veiled threats from their
leader. May I add, the Canadians I have spoken to have been
appalled by these actions. They do not want to be ruled by
Parliament. They want to be heard by Parliament.
Reform has also promised to fight for real change in such
areas as government waste, deficits and debt and the MPs
pensions. Over the past year I have stood in the House on three
separate occasions demanding change in the MP pension plan.
Or as I have come to call it, the MP pension scam. When one
compares the private sector pension plans with the MPs pension
scam as I have, it is obvious change is needed.
Under current tax laws, contributions to a pension plan cannot
exceed 20 per cent of a salary, that is for the average Canadian.
According to the accounting company KPMG Chartered
Accountants, most private sector corporations spend the
equivalent of between 13 per cent and 18 per cent of their payroll
on pension plans. Some are far below these levels.
For example, one of Canada's largest telecommunications
companies is at a mere 10 per cent of their payroll. Yet
government after government has allowed MPs and Senators to
skate around these rules, exempting themselves to a level equal
to 63 per cent of the payroll equivalent. This means that if the
plan was fully subsidized by MP pay cheques, over two-thirds
of our income would go into supporting the MP pension plan.
Even under the new proposals, pensions would be at 57 per cent
of payroll, well over half. This kind of extravagance only leads
to contempt among grassroots Canadians.
Many of my constituents have spoken out against this sort of
waste. The language has not been positive. It is has been
downright unparliamentary. Let me take a moment to quote
from a few letters and comments I have received.
One constituent writes: ``The government has been asking we
taxpayers to tighten our belt as we struggle to live on less as they
take in more taxes. It is time for them to set the example in
restraint. Don't just talk about it, do it''. Is spending seven
million tax dollars a year on the new pension scam restraint? Is it
responsible spending in the eyes of average Canadians? Think
about it.
Another quote: ``I think I can speak for most Canadians. We
are sick of government waste, especially government pensions
and benefits. It is a total extravagance on the government's part.
I am 29 years old, my husband is 33, we have three small
children. My husband works 12 hours a day, six days a week. We
are sick and tired of the amount of income tax he pays''.
An hon. member recently spoke at length on how MPs work:
``Twenty-four hours a day, sometimes seven days a week''.
Therefore, MPs deserve this kind of pension. How can we justify
taking tax dollars for this sort of luxury pension when many of
our fellow Canadians are barely getting by with no security for
their future.
There are many more letters I could quote from. In one of my
1994 householders, over one in four respondents spontaneously
singled out on their own the MP pension plan when asked where
cuts could be made to put our country's financial house in order.
That was one in four without prompting.
This plan has become a lightning rod for all that is wrong with
government and drastic change is needed. Sadly, the change
demanded is one thing the Liberals have left out of the bill.
(1200 )
What surprises me most about this new plan is how little has
changed between it and the old plan. I received a question and
answer pamphlet from the President of the Treasury Board, as
did evey member of this House, and I was shocked at some of the
responses to the questions asked. Let me quote some. ``Will
members still need six years of service to qualify for a
pension?'' The answer: ``Yes. No changes are being made in this
regard''. ``Will the maximum pension still be 75 per cent of a
member's best years' sessional indemnity?'' The answer: ``Yes,
but now it will take members of the House of Commons longer
to earn their maximum pension''. ``Will the new pensionable
age affect retired members?'' Answer: ``No.'' In all, it was lots
of talk but not much walk.
There is one change, however, the one time opting out clause.
By putting this clause in, members now have a choice: either
accept an outrageous unacceptable pension or none at all. In my
view, this is a blatantly political move designed to make the
government look like it is acting when in reality not much has
changed. In fact, after the next election every new MP will have
to take the new and improved so-called MP pension scam
whether they like it or not.
The Reform caucus, myself included, view these proposals as
completely unacceptable, and if they remain as they are it is the
intention of the Reform Party of Canada to opt out.
It is sad to see so few members on the government and Bloc
sides honouring these same principles. This is not an issue of the
pocketbook; this is an issue of the heart. This pension issue
12347
points to how we perceive Canada. Is this a country where we
express our ideals of hope and prosperity, how our country will
be now and for our children and grandchildren, or do we just
grab as much for ourselves as we can while the opportunity is
here?
None of us in the House of Commons came to Ottawa for the
benefits or for the pay. We came to serve our fellow constituents
and bring about the kinds of changes needed.
As long as we draw a paycheque from the Commons or travel
on an MP's allowance, we are living off the backs of the
taxpayers of Canada. Let me repeat that: we are living off the
backs of the taxpayers of Canada.
Canadians are not saying that MPs do not deserve a salary or
that we do not deserve a pension. All they ask is that the salaries
we earn and the pensions we collect be in line with what is in the
private sector, what they might reasonably expect for
themselves. This is a call the Liberals have ignored, to their
shame.
Mr. Leonard Hopkins (Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few words about the quality
of people who come to this place and the quality of people they
represent.
How can the public respect MPs when MPs do not respect
each other? If there is anything that has come up in this debate in
the House, it is the haranguing across this floor about MPs and
their qualities, as if they are a bunch of petty thieves.
There have been a lot of good people come into this House.
Let me tell members that those who are speaking today with
great purity are not necessarily in that category.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Hopkins: The Reform Party remarks in the House are
downgrading public life.
Mr. Hermanson: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I hope I did
not hear what I thought I heard. I thought I heard the hon.
member make some remark about thieves and then try to apply it
to members on this side of the House who had spoken. If that is
the case, I would ask that the member retract those comments.
They are absolutely insane and untrue.
Mr. Milliken: Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order, I think
the hon. member for Kindersley-Lloydminster ought to be
careful after some of the comments we have heard from some of
his colleagues this morning about pigs to the trough and so on.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Order. I will take the time
to review the blues, to look at the wording and the context of the
wording. If necessary, I will come back to the House.
I have been listening and will continue to listen attentively to
this debate, which is a very vigorous debate. There is a great deal
of emotion and some strong views.
(1205)
Mr. Hopkins: Mr. Speaker, I thank you for that and I thank
the parliamentary secretary also for his remarks. If the hon.
member who raised the question had been listening as carefully
as you had been, he would not have had any need to get up to his
feet. What I said was that they were talking about MPs in this
House as if they were petty thieves. I never applied it to anyone.
I am only repeating your own words. If you are ashamed of
them-
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Order. Given the nature
and the strong views of the debate, I continue to intervene for
members on both sides of the House to please direct all
comments through the Chair.
Mr. Hopkins: Mr. Speaker, you are absolutely correct.
The hon. member for Calgary Centre made reference to the
chief government whip and called him by name, of course out of
order, and also made reference to the Deputy Prime Minister of
Canada and talked about the money they would be making. How
do you know how much money they would be making on their
pensions, Mr. Speaker? When it comes down to this, I will
guarantee you that the hon. member for
Glengarry-Prescott-Russell and the Deputy Prime Minister
of Canada are going to be in this House long after the member
who uttered that statement is gone and forgotten, and they will
still be serving Canada.
The hon. member was using projected figures, just like the
citizens' coalition uses projected figures. It is using inflation
rates, and it does not know what the inflation rates will be in the
years to come. The same old story that we have heard for years is
coming out here
Where is the decency in all these things? Where is the decency
from across the way? You do not come to this place, Mr.
Speaker, just to get a pension. You come to this place because
you want to serve your country. This whole issue is being used as
political opportunism.
I got a letter the other day asking me to tell these people in the
Reform Party to get on with the major problems of the country
instead of always downgrading the public life of this country.
They do not know what they are here for.
Most members who come here are very sincere. Hon.
members, as I said, do not go into politics to get a pension. If I
wanted to get a pension I would have stayed out of politics. The
profession I was in would have paid far more than I will get here.
I came into this Parliament because I felt I had something to
offer. I still think I have something to offer.
12348
If there is anything I can do to settle this big quarrel about
downgrading public life in Canada, I think it is here that we
should show the public that there is something more to politics
in this country than hammering one another, being vindictive to
one another. We should practise some decency on the floor of
this House with each other. People come here to do something
useful.
It reminds me of the biblical story about the two people who
go into the temple to pray. One stands there as a sinner and he
says ``Forgive me, Lord, for the way I have sinned''. Then over
here you have the publican who was beating his chest and saying
``Thank God I am not like one of those''. That is the mentality
and that is the attitude we are hearing from the Reform Party
today, saying ``Thank God we are not like one of those''.
Mr. Hermanson: You have it the wrong way around. You do
not even have your scriptures right.
Mr. Hopkins: I have here a good example of the decency.
This shouting is part of the new conduct they brought to the
House of Commons. They are sitting over there today screaming
and shouting at me. Obviously some of these words are getting
through to them. When they came to Parliament they were going
to bring decency to this House of Commons.
I hope the microphones are sensitive enough to tell the
Canadian people how these Reform Party members are shouting
and screaming and disrupting the proceedings of the House.
That is their new contribution to the decency of this House of
Commons.
(1210 )
The hon. member for North Vancouver wrote a letter to The
Hill Times a while ago, saying ``What planet has Hopkins been
living on?'' I know what planet I have been living on. I know
where the hon. member for North Vancouver came from, and I
also have a good idea of where he is going in the life hereafter.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Hopkins: I have them going again.
One of my constituents sent me a day's pay and I felt obligated
to match that when I gave it to the Minister of Finance for
Canada. I thanked my constituent for that, but the hon. member
for North Vancouver wrote a letter saying ``What planet has
Hopkins been living on?'' As I said, I know what planet I am
living on, and I appreciate it very much.
He said that he has donated 10 per cent of his salary toward the
deficit. Imagine that. Does he think this is something brand
new? In come the Reformers and they are going to donate 10 per
cent of their salary. I can say without any lack of confidence that
I have given 10 per cent of my salary since day one to various
organizations, to good organizations, for the good of people who
are in need. But I am not the publican in the temple who goes out
on the street corner to say ``I did this, and thank God I am not
like one of those''. I do it in my own quiet way and I do it in a
dignified way.
I say to Reform members that if they came here to add some
decency to Parliament, they might change their attitudes a bit
and get away from this. They are not the only ones who ever
thought of doing anything for mankind. My goodness, Mr.
Speaker, I know that you do a lot for your constituents.
The quality of people who come into the House of Commons
is very high. Those people are here to do something useful and
they want to do something useful. However, when a debate such
as this is held and the Reform members come into the House
saying that they are going to set a new tone for Parliament, they
are not; they are setting a worse tone for Parliament. Beyond
that, they are giving the people of Canada no reason whatsoever
to believe that there is decency in the House. They are giving the
people of Canada no confidence that the Parliament of Canada is
working as it should, on their behalf.
Let us get on with the real issues of the nation and let us
practise a little decency on the floor of the House. Only by doing
that will people realize that there is some decorum in this place.
The Reform Party has brought anything but decorum to the
House of Commons.
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I have a
difficult act to follow.
One thought that occurred to me is that perhaps the hon.
member should consult with the minister of Indian affairs, who
has an inside track to a bishop. He often quotes letters from the
bishop. Maybe the hon. member could get clarification on some
of the scriptures.
It is with some remorse that I stand to debate this issue today.
That is because I represent the point of view of ordinary
Canadians who are fed up with the type of thing that has been
happening with the MPs' pension plan for the last number of
years. I regret this, because I have a lot of respect for members
of the House. I believe that all of us, when we decided to run for
election, did so with high motivation and because we wanted to
serve our country.
I have never been involved politically before. I was an
ordinary Canadian who dutifully voted, but I had never belonged
to a political party and I had never participated in an election
process. It was all new to me. One of the reasons I joined the
Reform Party, and there were many of them, was because of the
fact that it was promising integrity in government. It was
promising integrity, openness, and accountability.
(1215 )
That appealed to me. When I joined I sent a donation never
contemplating I would ever run for this office; that came later. I
was attracted to the party because it believes governments
should live within their means just like all other businesses and
all other Canadians. Reformers said back in 1988 in a brochure
that they believe MPs should be representing their constituents,
12349
not to be told here how to vote but to represent and to reflect the
wishes and aspirations of those who elected them.
I was also attracted because they indicated a member of
Parliament should represent and promote the well-being of the
country and the constituents, not his or her own well-being.
When I came here and found the pension plan available to
members of Parliament-
Mr. Hermanson: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
There were a large number of Reformers who listened to what
the hon. member on the other side of the House had to say. Now
when a Reformer is speaking we only see three Liberals in the
House. There are only three members who will listen to this
speech-
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Before I take up the
matter of quorum I want to remind colleagues that conventions
are that reference to the absence of members from either side of
the House is something we refrain from.
Call in the members.
And the bells having rung:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): I see a quorum. The hon.
member for Elk Island.
Mr. Epp: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate your encouraging the
people to hear my words because I do speak them sincerely and
hope they fall on sympathetic and understanding ears.
When I came here I was very sad to see the MP pension plan,
knowing also the public perception of it as being excessive.
There were many different terms used to describe it. The words
obscene and excessive are often used. Being a mathematician I
did some work on the MP pension plan from a mathematical,
actuarial point of view. It was with great regret.
I am a family man with a wife and children. I am getting old;
not very old, I am still young and energetic in thought. I am
approaching that age when I need to think seriously of my
pension. My wife was always a full time mom and so we have
always lived on my income. The pension plan I had where I
worked before accrued at the rate of 2 per cent per year. In terms
of a possible pension benefit that means when I reach the age of
65 my deferred pension from my previous institute will give me
54 per cent of my best years in that place, which means I will get
a pension of approximately $30,000 per year.
(1220 )
So there is no question as to whether I am double dipping, I am
not now receiving a pension. I will be receiving it as a deferred
pension when I reach age 65. Those are the rules. Had I not come
here I would have reached my full pensionable age at 61 and I
would have had 70 per cent by then.
However, having left my other employment I no longer am
able to accrue pension benefits there. I came here and realized
immediately I could not with integrity face the electors who
elected me and participate in this pension plan.
At the time of our election in the fall of 1993 when I went to do
all of the book work and fill in all the forms that we had to do as
new employees of the House, I asked if I could opt out of the
pension plan. I was told by a very kind person I could not
because it was controlled by legislation and until the law was
changed I had no choice.
Therefore, against my wishes I was registered into the MPs
pension plan. I was being forced to pay into the plan
approximately $590 per month. I do not object to paying $590
per month as long as I receive a fair pension on retirement, but
there is a real problem with that pension plan because not only
do I put in $590 a month but presumably the employers, in our
case the taxpayers of Canada almost directly, are matching it.
What is wrong is this pension plan permits me as a member of
Parliament to accrue pension benefits at a rate not available to
other Canadians. The Income Tax Act does not permit the rate of
accrual even if the person is willing to make those payments into
a registered pension plan at that rate.
However, and this is critical, in the Income Tax Act
self-employed persons have higher limits for RRSPs. If we as
members of Parliament were able to get out of the MP pension
plan and put our investment into an RRSP like other Canadians
with the same rules and limits we would be able to provide for
ourselves a pension which would surely be adequate.
I have observed most people who serve in the House do so at
mid-age as opposed to an early age. There are some young
members here and I commend them for their early entry into the
parliamentary process. Most already have RRSPs or other
pension plans started. They will not be dependent totally on
their earnings from the House of Commons.
It seemed to me very unfortunate the pension plan here was
inadequate because I would like to have finished my
pensionable years either by staying at my other place of
employment or by being able to do a comparable program here
so that the two of them tied together would give me a reasonable
pension and look after my needs as I enter those years of
non-productive work, although for me hopefully that will be
many years hence. That was not available. Hence we began to
call strongly for the ability to opt out of the plan.
I want to address primarily and specifically that aspect of the
plan. I do not know what words to use because I do not want to be
unkind. I saw the proposal in Bill C-85 on the retirement
allowances act for members of Parliament a one time provision
which states that after it is brought into force all members will
12350
have 60 days in which to indicate their willingness to continue in
the plan, which is simply a spin on allowing opting out.
(1225 )
I thought this was particularly politically vindictive. There
are people on this side the House elected by the electors who
have as much respect for them as every Liberal elected to the
House. I promise that. Those people are now being told: ``You
do not have the same rights and benefits as others. We will give
you back your money and you will have to pay taxes on it''. They
are basically saying those of us who want to stand on principle
will pay a very high price.
I am not backing down. I am doing this on a matter of
principle. Frankly, my Reform colleagues and I are taking a
tremendous economic hit on this. We are doing it on principle
because it is right. We understand we will receive a little
interest. Meanwhile members not opting out are telling the
public their service here, as far as the pension portion is
concerned, is worth two and half times as much or more.
When we calculate this we find if we were to make even
reasonable assumptions on interest rates and inflation it would
require an additional deposit of about $2,500 per month per
member in order to provide the kind of pension these people are
asking for. Clearly it is a vindictive, very malicious attack on
those who want to stand on principle. I object strongly.
The rules of the House should apply equally to everyone. The
fault of the government is that it divides people by saying some
are in this class, some are in that class and some are in another
class. Consequently there is an increasing amount of rancour
and bitterness which could be avoided if we were fair with each
other.
I am sorry my time has expired. I would like to speak for
another half hour given permission. Should I ask for unanimous
consent?
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Is there unanimous
consent?
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. John Bryden (Hamilton-Wentworth, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I will keep my remarks short. I echo the concern
expressed by my colleague for
Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke.
What concerns me most about the debate is it is denigrating
all of us as members of Parliament. As did the member for Elk
Island, I ran to become an MP because I wished to serve my
country. I had idealism and a feeling I could contribute. The
question of remuneration, be it salary or pensions, was not in my
mind.
However, my colleagues opposite may be interested to know I
have no pension whatsoever at this time. I would have to get
re-elected to qualify for any pension.
I want to place the debate where I think it belongs. A letter
was sent to me by a 16-year old from my riding. She comments
on the debate and feels obviously MPs are basically cheating the
system. They were all at the trough, to use the expression of the
member for Medicine Hat, with respect to MPs like me.
I resent that because it is an inflammatory remark and gives
the impression we are not qualified members of Parliament, that
we are not dedicated to helping fellow Canadians. I will read a
paragraph because this is where the debate really belongs. It
reads:
I have five other sisters and a brother and my dad has no job. About three years
ago he lost it. He worked at the company for 22 years and now my mom babysits
an extra five kids to help pay for the groceries. My dad has written thousands of
resumes and has done about four different jobs but nothing has really stuck.
(1230)
The issue raised by that child should be the topic of debate
today. This is what we should be talking about, not denigrating
politicians, not denigrating members of Parliament. Members of
Parliament should all be trying to help-
Mr. Hermanson: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Both
you and I can see who is not here so I will not mention them but
we are again short of a quorum.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): A quorum is present.
Mr. Bryden: Mr. Speaker, members of Parliament in the
House of Commons should be concentrating on helping
Canadians like this child whose parents are in need rather then
engaging in an acrimonious debate that as far as I can see from
my colleagues opposite is basically an attempt to gain publicity.
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the issue we are trying to discuss today is important to
Canadians. As was mentioned earlier by one of my colleagues, it
is one of the top three or four items listed on correspondence I
receive from my constituents about abuses of taxpayers trust,
abuses of taxpayers hard earned tax dollars. They want to see the
issue discussed and MP pensions properly fixed.
It is extremely disappointing that on the government side
there is no one speaking out in favour of the legislation, talking
about how proud they are of the legislation, talking about the
details of the legislation and hoping to convince Canadians that
the legislative idea has any merit whatsoever.
If they were proud of the legislation, if they would go on the
public record and be counted, I could perhaps believe that they
actually meant what they were talking about. I do not see that.
12351
Reformer after Reformer gets up and speaks. On the
government side there are a few words about not talking about it.
Other than that they just want to plough ahead. If they made
these comments at a public town hall meeting in my riding
supporting the MP pension plan, it would be better to have a car
running and parked behind the stage. By the time they finished
the speech the tomatoes would start flying and they would be on
the run. This nonsense from the government side would never
sell in Fraser Valley East.
There are many symbols we are proud of in Canada. We are
proud of our hockey teams. We are proud of our flag. We had
reference to the 30th anniversary of our flag recently. We are
even kind of proud of our winters in the great Canadian north.
We are proud of our peacekeepers. We like the Calgary
Stampede. These are positive symbols that Canadians like to
rally around.
However, the MP pension plan is also a symbol. It symbolizes
waste. It symbolizes why Canadian taxpayers do not trust the
politicians they put in charge of the public purse. It is symbolic.
It symbolizes political arrogance that has been inbred after years
and years of trying to pull the wool over their eyes. They think
the symbolism of public distrust is somehow okay. It is not okay.
Canadians in my riding have no stomach for half baked change. I
will not call it reform. It is an abuse to call it reform.
(1235 )
I sent out a questionnaire in my riding and I would like to give
some of the results in case members wonder how much support
there is for the MP pension plan. Most Canadians feel an MP
pension plan is all right. Eighty-five per cent of the people said
that there should be an MP pension plan. They do not have a
problem with that. That does not surprise me. Canadians are
generous and understand there should be a reasonable pension
plan.
However, listen to the kind of pension plan they consider
reasonable. In my riding the constituents said that the member
should be at least 58 years old and have worked at least 15 years
and that the pension should not be indexed. That is the minimum
requirement they expect of members of Parliament.
What does the half baked change call for? Members still get a
fully indexed pension after six years of service. They can still
get 75 per cent of their best earning years. It is still a gold plated,
feed at the trough pension plan. If I voted in favour of it I would
be ashamed to go home.
There are no speakers on the other side but I cannot believe
the verbal nonsense they utter. I would love to be invited to any
Liberal riding in Canada to debate the issue. I will make the trek
from this place or my place back home to their ridings to debate
the MP pension plan on the public stage. They would be
ashamed to issue the same type of guttural nonsense we hear
from that side in a public forum.
Here there is no public to throw tomatoes at them. Here they
are not answering directly to the voters. That is why they are not
saying anything. They are not on the public record. They are just
letting it slide by. They hope we will be quiet so that they can
slip it through like other pieces of nonsense the Liberals have
brought forward.
There are things other than this wasteful MP pension plan that
are starting to become symbolic of liberalism. One is the idea
that they can jump across a huge chasm in two short leaps. It is
what they did on the budget. They recognized there was a
problem. They realized that we had to balance the budget. What
did they do? Instead of taking the aggressive moves necessary to
get us across the chasm, to give us a game plan to span that
chasm, they said they would jump halfway across and as soon as
they started to come down they would try to figure out how to
make the next jump to get the rest of the way. It is symbolic of
liberalism. It is a half baked, half hearted attempt.
The MP pension plan is probably the most visible and most
disgusting item. They make a small change, hoping that people
will consider it to be a real change. They may even pawn it off as
a reform, which of course it is not, and hope they can cross the
chasm of MP pension reform in two jumps. They cannot cross a
chasm in two jumps. They either mean it or they do not. When
they start to make the jump they had better have in mind whether
or not they mean it.
Time and again I have said there is nothing wrong with an MP
pension plan. People just want a reasonable plan. They want an
MP pension plan matching dollar for dollar, one to one, just like
hundreds of thousands of other pension plans where the
employer matches one to one. It should not be three or four to
one. It should not be a special deal for members of Parliament. It
should be the same deal as everyone else gets.
The other day we found out that the mileage members of
Parliament can claim on their cars is higher than anyone else in
the private sector can claim or higher than any other government
employee can claim. Members of Parliament have a special
mileage rate.
I do not mind submitting expenses. By all means it is
legitimate. I put in my expense form for my mileage, crossed out
the new rate and put down the old rate. Until Canadian people
can charge that much I am not going to accept it. However it
came back stating that I could not do that, that I had to accept the
new rate.
What are they thinking about? Why would we have one set of
rules for parliamentarians and another set of rules for ordinary
Canadians? That duplicity, that double standard, has lowered
Canadians' trust in politicians.
12352
(1240)
It is not what we are saying in the Reform Party. We are
merely illustrating, highlighting or echoing the concerns of
people in our constituencies. We are merely pointing them out.
We are just taking the highlighting pen and showing Canadians
what the Liberals are doing in case they are interested, and they
are. That is all we are doing. We are not writing this garbage
legislation. We did not come up with this kind of half hearted
proposal. We have come up with an alternative.
The member for Beaver River stands to say that she will opt
out of the program. It is going to cost her $1.5 million. If I wore a
hat, my hat would be off. I respect someone who stands on
principles instead of diving into a sea of gravy and keeping
afloat. I respect the principles she espouses.
I issue one more challenge. I will argue the issue with the
Liberals anywhere they want. I will not be taken up on it. I guess
it is a cheap thing to promise. In any event I promise I will do it
if they would like to debate it.
I also issue a challenge to the Bloc. All Reform Party
members are going to opt out of the pension plan because we
stand on principle and do not swim in gravy. We are going to opt
out. The Bloc members want to opt out of Canada. My next
challenge is that I would expect every one of the 53 Bloc
members of Parliament to opt out of the MP pension plan
because they do not want to be part of Canada anyway. That is
the second challenge.
First, I will debate anyone over on the other side who wants to
debate. It is not going to happen but I sure would love to do it.
Second is an announcement that all MPs from the Reform Party
will opt out because we stand on principle. Last, I expect every
member of the Bloc Quebecois to opt out. I would love to see it
written in the papers. I would like it to happen as soon as
possible to see if there are any principles over there or whether it
is another chance to grab the gravy train.
Mr. Hermanson: I rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I do
not believe there is a quorum.
And the bells having rung:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Order. A quorum is
present.
[Translation]
Mr. Ronald J. Duhamel (Parliamentary Secretary to
President of the Treasury Board, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to rise today to say a few words about this bill. I would
like to start by making some comments.
[English]
I am really disappointed that colleagues from the Reform
Party, knowing full well that my colleagues are having lunch,
would stoop to silly procedural wrangling to embarrass us. On a
percentage basis they are much less represented than we are.
Mr. Milliken: There are only three out of fifty-three here.
Mr. Duhamel: I see. I am surprised as well that the Reform
Party did not spend any time talking about what the government
had promised and what the government had done. The
government had promised in the red book during the election
campaign, and it has honoured the promise, to raise the age of
eligibility. It promised to remove double dipping and it did so. It
went beyond that. What else did it do? It reduced government
contributions by 33.3 per cent. That is what it did.
It did even more. The accrual rate has been reduced by 20 per
cent. We have to work 20 per cent longer to get the same amount
of money. It went beyond even that. It said that it would be
possible for those who do not want the pension plan not to have
it. I was really quite surprised that my colleagues from the
Reform Party failed to mention this. I know why they did not
mention it. They do not want to be fair. They do not want to deal
with the facts. They want to exaggerate. They want to attempt to
excite the passions of people and make them believe they have
the answer. They do not have the answer. They do not even look
at the facts.
(1245)
Let me mention something else I have done in order to assist
my Reform colleagues. There is a document entitled
``Commission to Review Allowances of Members of
Parliament''. My colleagues from the Reform Party like to
suggest that everyone is young, they will retire young and
everyone will take home a large pension.
If everyone were to retire right now there would be fewer than
13 per cent of the people eligible for retirement. This means
there are fewer than 13 per cent who are less than 54 years of
age.
An hon. member: That's wrong.
Mr. Duhamel: One of my colleagues in the Reform Party says
I am wrong. He should take it up with the commission to review
allowances of members of Parliament. My colleagues in the
Reform Party always think we are wrong when we deal with the
facts from a neutral third party. The commission is not a
political party trying to take cheap political shots because it has
no issues or trying to create an issue and going down the tubes.
This is a neutral third party that is dealing with the facts.
It is rather interesting to look at the number of retirees during
the last decade. Roughly half received retirement allowances.
The other half did not receive any pension at all. In the
Parliaments of 1984, 1988 and 1993, that is exactly what
happened. Do the Reformers mention that? Do they mention that
roughly half receive no pensions? Of course not.
12353
My colleagues in the Reform Party also like to pretend
everyone walks out with a huge pension. Do members know that
over 60 per cent of the 445 people receiving pensions today
receive a pension that is less than $29,999 a year? They will not
deal with that. They would rather deal with catcalls and
emotions. They do not want to deal with the facts.
Let me share some other interesting statistics and look at our
current plan in comparison with other provincial and territorial
plans. They have a minimum age requirement. For example, in
Nova Scotia the minimum age is 50. In Ontario it is age and
years of service which equals 55. In Saskatchewan the minimum
age is 55. In New Brunswick it is age and years of service which
equals 60. In Quebec the minimum age is 55. My colleagues all
know this but Reformers do not want to deal with facts. In
Newfoundland, the minimum service requirement is two
elections in five years, Nova Scotia is two elections in five
years, Ontario is five years, Saskatchewan is one year only and
Quebec is six years. Is this not interesting?
Let us look at the maximum pensionable level. In
Newfoundland it is 75 per cent, Nova Scotia is 75 per cent and
Ontario is 75 per cent of as high as a 36-month average. There is
more.
Let us look at the post-retirement adjustment. Does the House
know that the post-retirement adjustment in New Brunswick is
indexed to the rise of the CPI?
I could share more with members but my colleagues do not
want to deal with facts. They would rather deal with rhetoric,
emotion and passion and try to pretend that they would do what
is right. However, when they were given the opportunity to do
what is right with the salary cuts only a handful took them.
When they tried to pretend they were never going to be
travelling on executive class, of course that did not happen.
I have gone beyond the provincial and territorial. I am going
to go to the international level. We have looked at Canada.
[Translation]
The contribution rate here is 11 per cent. As for the minimum
age and service requirement, Canadian MPs must have at least
six years of service; the maximum pensionable level is 75 per
cent of salary with full indexation to the cost of living.
In Australia, the contribution rate is 11.5 per cent, while the
maximum pensionable level is 75 per cent of salary-the same
as in Canada.
(1250)
In the United Kingdom, the two Houses have a contribution
rate of 6 per cent; pensions amount to 67 per cent of final salary
but are fully indexed to the cost of living.
In Belgium, the contribution rate is 7.5 per cent, and the
minimum age and service requirement is 55 years, or 52 years
plus 8 years of service. The maximum pension is 75 per cent of
final salary.
In France, the contribution rate is 7.85 per cent, the minimum
age and service requirement is 55 years, and the maximum
pensionable level is 84.375 per cent of final salary, indexed to
the national salary growth rate. And I could go on and on.
[English]
I have proven my point. I have shown clearly that the
government has gone beyond its two promises to raise the age of
eligibility, which it has done, and remove double dipping, which
it has done. It has gone beyond 33.3 per cent less contributions
from the taxpayers to the pension plan and 20 per cent less take
home by MPs. Besides, for those who do not want that, they need
not take it. The government has gone beyond what it has
promised.
In the provincial and territorial scene, the benefits are as good
or better in a lot of areas. It is the same thing in the international
scene. The benefits are as good or better in a number of other
countries.
The Reform rhetoric is not based on fact. It is absolute
nonsense for them to suggest that. They are plummeting in the
polls and have lost their credibility so they are trying to create an
issue. That is what they are trying to do.
When the leader of the Reform Party went to the press
conference he referred to the current pension plan as trough and
to the changes as trough light. I wonder what we need to do with
respect to the Reform Party's latest suggestion that MPs'
salaries ought to be increased to $150,000 a year. At a 2 per cent
accrual rate per year that would give us in excess of what we
have on pensions as well. Are we supposed to call this trough
premium plus?
Mr. Ed Harper (Simcoe Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to rise and speak today on Bill C-85, an attempt to
reform the MP pension plan. Before I do I would like to address
a couple of comments of the member for St. Boniface who
attempted to make such an eloquent defence of the indefensible.
This really has not been much of a debate. Very few have
come to defend this so-called reform of the MP pension plan,
although he did make a feeble effort. He talks about being fair. I
wonder who we are attempting to be fair to here. I suggest it is
about time we were fair to the taxpayers who have been paying
the bill for all of these years for this gold plated pension plan.
He also talks about what the provincial governments are doing
in their pension plans. He forgot to mention the promise of
Liberal Party in Ontario to scrap its pension plan and put in
12354
something that is more in line with the private sector, as has
already happened in Alberta and will happen in P.E.I. Those
provincial governments have got the message that these gold
plated pension plans have to go. The federal government has not
got the message yet.
It is obvious from this bill that the members of the
government still do not understand that what we are talking
about here is integrity, credibility, and getting a handle on the
deficit and debt by showing leadership by example.
The President of the Treasury Board said during his opening
remarks that the pension debate has been discussed here for 10
years. For the same 10 years it has been cussed in the rest of
Canada. The voters have been upset with it and have been
growing more upset. I can assure all members of the government
that Bill C-85 will not end the discussion or the cussing. It will
continue because the bill does not address the problems. I can
assure the House this will be an issue in the next federal election
because we will be there to make sure it is.
(1255)
When we had some limited debate, Liberal comments were
that the amount of money is small when it is taken in the context
of the total debt.
An hon. member: Shame.
Mr. Harper (Simcoe Centre): Shame. I would like to see that
statement made to a group of taxpayers. ``Why worry about our
gold plated pension plan? It is only a little bit of money in the
whole scheme of things. Surely you do not begrudge us a little
bit of extra debt''.
They talk about what members of Parliament do after they get
booted out of office. Some of them are unemployable. Based on
the job they do here I think they should be unemployable.
Canadian taxpayers should not be funding a lavish lifestyle for
MPs. I want to hear MPs tell that to the thousands of Canadians
who are unemployed or under employed because they have lost a
job through no fault of their own. They were not booted out by
the voters. I have difficulty finding any great sympathy for MPs.
Then I hear some talking about the great sacrifice they have
made to serve the Canadian people. No one held a gun to their
heads and made them run for office. We sought the nomination.
We went out and campaigned. Now we hear the rhetoric about
the great sacrifice they made on behalf of the Canadian people.
The only members of Parliament who might even have a hint of
credibility in that area are those who were nominated. The
nominated candidates of the government may have some
justification for remarks like that but certainly none of the
elected members would.
The red ink book promised reform and all we have in the bill is
window dressing. I recall the comments of the former leader of
the opposition, who is now the Prime Minister, during the
election campaign. He challenged the government: ``Recall the
House. We will deal with the pension plan right away''. It was a
burning issue with the Canadian people. How times change.
Once elected to office, it is no longer a burning issue. Eighteen
months later we get around to dealing with the pension plan but
it all window dressing. It is a minor tune-up when a major
tune-up is required.
The money and perks are not the incentive for members of
Parliament to run for office. Anyone who is here because of the
money and the perks is here for the wrong reasons. I suggest
there are not many members of Parliament on either side of the
House who are here for that reason.
Canadians would agree there must be a pension but it must be
a fair pension. The Canadian people are fair. They want the
pension to be adequate and they want fairness to be part of it.
With the gold plated pension plan members are staying in
office because they see the gravy train and they want to get
aboard. That is the wrong incentive for people here. As a matter
of fact, it suggests that perhaps we should be looking at the
possibility of term limitations to remove the carrot.
As the Liberals have a habit of doing, we are mixing apples
and oranges. They have demonstrated a penchant for it in the
gun control bill. They are mixing the criminals with the law
abiding. What are we doing with this bill? We are mixing
pensions with salaries. They are two different issues and should
be dealt with separately. There is absolutely no basis to combine
them. We are here talking about pensions and we keep hearing
about the salaries of hockey players. That has nothing to do with
the debate today.
Mr. Milliken: Ask Silye what he thought about it; $150,000
salary, that is what he is talking about.
Mr. Harper (Simcoe Centre): Mr. Speaker, Canadians are
fair, but that fairness is being abused in the bill. All they are
asking for is fairness. They are prepared to give it, but they are
not getting it back now.
What are Canadians saying about this? No issue has a higher
profile. Two years ago during my campaign it came up at every
all candidates meeting, at every door I knocked on. It certainly
continues to be brought up at every town hall meeting I go to.
They ask: ``When are you going to do something about that gold
plated pension plan?'' That is what Canadians want to know and
they are asking it from coast to coast.
Let me quote from a survey by Environics. Eighty-six per
cent of Canadians say that the MPs pension plan is too generous.
Ninety-three per cent believe the federal government should
12355
fundamentally reform the plan before cutting government
spending, including spending on social programs.
(1300)
Eighty-eight per cent support bringing the plan into line with
private sector pension plans. Ninety-three per cent believe that
the value of the MPs pension plan should have the same limit on
growth as the private sector plans. Ninety-one per cent believe
that MPs should only begin to collect their pensions at age 65.
Sixty-five per cent say that MPs pensions should not be indexed
to inflation.
The government had a great opportunity in this bill to restore
some integrity to this place and it missed it by a country mile. It
is most unfortunate. Politics have changed in Canada for the
better. Canadians are no longer going to be dictated to from the
top down.
The old guard who has been here for a number of years has not
received that message. I was hoping that the 205 new members,
many of whom are from Ontario, would have understood that the
Canadian people are not going to take this lying down any more.
They will stand up and be heard.
Let us look at what the consultants said about this MPs
compensation package. On eligibility Ernst & Young said that it
should be age 60 and not age 55 as it is in this bill. On pension
accumulation, they recommended 2 per cent. What do we have
here? We have double that. We have 4 per cent. On indexing they
said only to inflation in excess of 3 per cent. What does this bill
give us? Full indexing.
Mr. Milliken: What did they say about salaries?
Mr. Harper (Simcoe Centre): The member opposite is
missing again. He is talking about salaries. We are talking about
pensions. There is a blockage over there. We have great
difficulty getting through but believe you me, we are going to
keep on trying. There may be some hope down the road. It is
pensions and not salaries we are dealing with.
Seventy-eight per cent of the plans in the private sector do not
have indexing. Why do we have it? Why are we so special?
About the contribution rate, Ernst & Young said it should be
reduced from 11 per cent to 5 per cent. Bill C-85 instead of
going down to 5 per cent gives us 9 per cent.
There is one good part about this bill. That is the opting in
clause. I am proud to say I will not be opting in and I am also
proud to say my Reform colleagues will not be opting in. We are
out of it and I am proud to stand in the House and say this.
It will be a major issue in the 1997 election or whenever the
next federal election is. These members' replacements, and they
will be replaced, will not appreciate that they were not given the
opportunity to opt out. They will waste no time in changing the
plan. I can assure members of that and we will be here to help
them do exactly that.
Mr. Andrew Telegdi (Waterloo, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I recall
vividly after the election when we first came to this House in
January 1994. A party which came from the west promised to do
politics differently. Its members promised to take the moral high
ground, if you will. They wanted to make this Chamber work
more effectively. Sadly, after all this time, we know that is not
the case. I want to talk about that. It is important that Canadians
who are watching understand the hypocrisy in the House coming
from the west and that they have a chance to reflect on it.
The debate on pensions was introduced as an opposition day
motion on November 22. At that time, Reform Party whip
wanted members of Parliament to be paid $12,000 a month. On
top of that he wanted members of Parliament to have a 5 per cent
pension contribution matched by the government.
I noticed that since the debate has started once again, it is no
longer $12,000 a month that the whip of the Reform Party wants
members of Parliament to have. Now it is $150,000 a year which
is more than $12,000 a month. It is amazing. If we leave it for
another six months, he will be asking for $200,000. I have
answered a number of letters about that issue. I have pointed out
the hypocrisy of that position.
(1305)
When I talk about some of the hypocrisies, let me focus on
some of the things that have been said by Reform Party
members. They said that they oppose any assistance to political
parties from public funds, including any refund of candidate or
party electoral expenses. Guess what the reality is. They have
taken the refund for 50 per cent of eligible campaign expenses
estimated to be between $2 million and $3 million.
Mr. Hill (Prince George-Peace River): What did you do
with yours?
Mr. Telegdi: They are doing politics differently, like they
promised they would. Just listen to them howling in the back.
Mr. Hill (Prince George-Peace River): Talk about
hypocrisy, look in the mirror.
Mr. Telegdi: In their blue sheet the Reform Party states it
supports the re-examination of MPs' and senators' expense
allowances, free services, staff privileges and limousines. The
leader of the Reform Party has a $31,000 annual expense
account paid for by the Reform Party which is supported by the
taxpayers of this country.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
12356
Mr. Telegdi: Mr. Speaker, it is hard to speak over the howls
coming from the would-be preachers down to the left.
Let us talk about double dipping. The champion double dipper
sits on the Reform side. Does any Reform Party member stand
up to denounce it? Does any Reform Party member stand up and
say: ``No, this is wrong. We will not do it because there is only
one taxpayer's pocket''? They do not.
He served in the provincial legislature and gets a $60,000 a
year pension and he sits in the House and collects a member of
Parliament's salary. Surely even Reform Party members can
understand the hypocrisy of their position.
The fact is we had a red book and we made promises in the red
book. Have we lived up to those promises? My answer is yes.
Not only did we live up to them, we have gone beyond them. We
even had some grudging commendation on that from members
of the Reform Party, including the Reform Party whip.
Let me say for myself and my colleagues in the House, and we
have to say this often, Liberal members of Parliament do not
believe that a member of Parliament should be paid $150,000 a
year, unlike the suggestions by the Reform Party whip.
The hypocrisy goes beyond just the pension issue. It goes
back to the early days of this House when members of the
Reform Party stood up and said they wanted to do politics
differently. Having watched the House before, they are not
doing politics differently. They are taking politics to a new low.
Talk about political opportunism. They would misrepresent the
workings of this House for pure, selfish, political gain.
Mr. Epp: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I know it is
difficult to keep the relevance rule going, but I think instead of
the hon. member talking about the Reform Party we should be
discussing Bill C-85. I would like the member to describe for us
the wonderful aspects of Bill C-85 and how it solves the
problems.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): I believe the member for
Elk Island is correct. The rule with regard to relevancy is one
that is at the best of times very difficult for the Chair. However,
certainly his presentation I think was a matter of debate more
than a point of order.
(1310 )
Mr. Telegdi: Mr. Speaker, I expect the Reformers to keep
interrupting. Of course they would because they do not like to
deal with the shortcomings of their position and the hypocrisy
surrounding it.
Reformers promised to come to the House and do politics
differently. They have not done that. I am saddened by it.
An hon. member: Talk about the pension.
Mr. Telegdi: This deals with the hypocrisy of the Reform
Party position, if the member must know. Doing politics
differently certainly has not been their long suit, except to take
us down a few notches in the public perception. Is it working? I
suggest it is not.
It is not working because the Canadian public sees through it.
The Canadian public sees through that opportunism. When the
leader of the third party talks about a code of conduct and talks
against expense allowances and turns around and collects
$31,000, then the hypocrisy is clearly pointed out.
In terms of being up front and straightforward with the
electorate, we had a campaign. The reforms were spelled out
during the campaign. This government has gone further than it
said it would in its red book. I can best characterize members of
the Reform Party in the House as chicken littles running around
saying the sky is falling.
Reformers would do the same thing with some of the major
issues facing this country, which can cause our economy a great
deal of damage. Instead of dealing with the issues that are of
great importance and impact on the daily lives of Canadians,
Reformers choose to sidetrack. The Reform Party, instead of
doing sincerely what is best for Canadians and the House, has
reduced itself to rhetoric, from reasoned argument to basic,
simplistic political games. It is not working. Hypocrisy day
after day becomes very obvious and it shows.
Mr. Hugh Hanrahan (Edmonton-Strathcona, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, unlike the previous speaker, I will confine my remarks
to the bill before us. His comments show the obvious lack of
confidence in his own party's bill.
It gives me great pleasure to address Bill C-85 which deals
with the issue of MPs pensions. This issue is of great concern to
myself, the Reform Party and to all Canadians. This plan was
indefensible even in the good times when Ottawa's vaults were
overflowing and the public was feeling generous toward its
politicians. However, in bad times such as we are now
experiencing, when many Canadians are suffering and the
government is hard pressed to fund basic programs, the MP
pension plan amounts to little more than the great Canadian
ripoff.
When I say I know Canadians truly do want the MP pension
plan reformed, I am speaking for those individuals who live in
my constituency of Edmonton-Strathcona. I asked my
constituents for some feedback on this issue in my first
householder. The results were overwhelmingly in favour of
pension reform. I cannot help but believe if the Liberals were to
ask their constituents the same question, they would find the
same result.
Constituents were asked at what age should an outgoing MP
be able to collect a pension. Seventy-five per cent of my
12357
constituents felt an outgoing MP should not be able to collect
until after his or her 60th birthday.
(1315)
The second question asked regarding MP pensions was how
many years should an MP serve before being eligible for a
pension. The results again are staggering in favour of pension
reform. One hundred per cent of respondents said the number of
years should be no less than eight. Eighty-one per cent felt the
minimum number of years of service should be no less than 16.
Answers to these questions are a far cry from the present
situation in place today and also a far cry from the pension
reforms the government has introduced. It is important to
illustrate a few facts about MP pension plans, as they will
clearly illustrate why the constituents of
Edmonton-Strathcona and Canadians as a whole feel there is
great need for the present pension plan to be reformed.
First, pensions are payable immediately upon retirement and
only after six years of service no matter at what age the MP
retires or is not re-elected. Second, payments continue even if
the ex-MP holds another permanent job, which would be
defined as double dipping.
Third, pensions begin at $23,390 per year and increase 5 per
cent per year of service to a maximum of 75 per cent average
salary. Fourth, inflation indexing kicks in after age 60 but is
retroactive to retirement day.
Fifth, MPs pay 11 per cent of their base salary into the pension
fund. The government matches this amount and covers
shortfalls, an unfunded liability which cost Canadian taxpayers
nearly $160 million last year.
By no means is this list inclusive. There are, however, a few
items of concern to me. I have stated in the House repeatedly
that Reformers have come to Ottawa to make a difference. I ran
for Parliament to serve my constituents. I did not run for a
pension.
The Liberals state in their red ink book: ``A Liberal
government will reform the pension plan of members of
Parliament and put an end to double dipping''. Bill C-85 is a
poor attempt at addressing the issue of pension reform.
We have been sitting in the House for over 18 months and we
are discussing still the pension issue. Obviously it was not as
important a commitment to the Liberals. It is also interesting to
note the current Prime Minister challenged the former Prime
Minister to recall Parliament if she were was truly serious about
pension reform. This was just before the last election. I quote the
present Prime Minister: ``Reforms would pass in a day''. It has
been over 500 days since he became Prime Minister and still no
reforms have been passed. I find it ironic the only member of the
House whose benefits are not reduced by this bill is the Prime
Minister.
Canadians will not tolerate political injustices. The evidence
lies with the now defunct Conservative Party. We on this side of
the House know the government has delayed on the issue of
pension reform. Perhaps it is because the Liberals are concerned
about having to adapt to another of the Reform Party's policies
such as they have done in the past on issues such as the Young
Offenders Act, parole reform, criminal justice reform, debt and
deficit reduction, and let us not forget immigration.
All this is doing nothing but costing the taxpayer more and
more money each day. As we know, the National Citizens
Coalition set aside a day this year and called it national trough
day in which another group of 52 MPs of all political stripes
became eligible for this outlandish of extravagant pension plan.
These new members of the trough club could collectively
receive $53 million if all of these 52 MPs quit today and lived to
the age of 75, while at the same time the average Canadian
citizen must work 35 years to accumulate a pension which is not
nearly as gold plated as this.
(1320)
This gold plated MP pension plan should be renamed from
pension plan to cash for life rip off of the Canadian taxpayer.
This plan is perhaps one of the federal government's most
offensive examples of waste. What strikes to the core of the
issue is we as parliamentarians have to set an example for all
Canadians and delaying issues such as pension reform is no way
to lead by example.
I can stand in the House and state unequivocally that the
Reform Party is different. We want to see changes in the pension
plan; not just superficial changes, substantial changes.
These changes would include a pension plan brought in line
with pension plans offered in the private sector, an end to full
indexation, postponing eligibility until at least age 60, ensuring
the MP pension plan is adequately funded by MPs for the
benefits they will receive so there will be no shortfalls, allow
MPs the option to opt out of the pension program and allow the
flexibility to invest in a private pension plan such as an RRSP
with a maximum contribution in accordance with the Income
Tax Act.
Let us now look specifically at what the Liberals have
introduced. They have decreased the contribution and benefit
rates, but only marginally. They have raised the minimum age to
55 for benefit eligibility. I refer to a survey of my riding in
which 81 per cent of constituents feel the minimum age should
be 60. The Liberals claim to have ended double dipping and yet
benefits will continue to grow under the generous inflation
indexing provisions. They offer an opting out clause but it is a
one time deal, as coverage will be compulsory for members of
future Parliaments. The benefits will continue to be fully
12358
indexed to inflation from the date they retire. This has not
changed and that is no big surprise to me or to the Reform Party.
We must stop this insanity. We must make real changes and
real reforms to the MP pension plan now.
Mr. Julian Reed (Halton-Peel, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I will
tell the Reform Party a little story.
In 1975 I was elected to the Ontario legislature and served for
ten years. Because I was self-employed, when I retired I
assumed it would be a very simple process to pick up the pieces
where I had left off and re-enter the career I had left. However, I
discovered it took four years to regenerate the income level I had
prior to my retirement from public life. I suggest to members of
the Reform Party that unless they are farmers the transition back
to private life will not be nearly as simple as it seems. I say that
with all sincerity. I say that to defend the pension plan and the
pension reform.
(1325)
Why do we have a pension plan at all? We could accept the
$150,000 a year the member for Calgary Centre is proposing. I
am sure the people of Canada are not ready to embrace that
concept. I suppose if all members of the House wanted to accept
that salary and do away with the pension plan entirely I have no
complaints. We can do it that way.
The pension plan was set up to ease the return to private life,
and also the severance package members get at the end of their
service. It was done to recognize we are here generally during
the highest earning years of our life. The longer we are here and
the older we get, the more difficult it is to resume the practice we
had before.
We could take this right to the extreme. We could return to the
old ways when members did not get paid at all, no pension. The
requirement was that one had to be independently wealthy to
serve or one had to have a patron. I am not sure the people of
Canada are ready for patronage of that kind again. That is the
way it was.
The idea of a pension plan was to allow people of modest
means to participate in the life of the country. It was no longer
then the sole preserve of the elite.
Right now there are approximately 600 former members of
the House. Approximately 400 never qualified for any kind of
pension whatsoever. They did not serve long enough to qualify.
The pension is being delivered to approximately 200 former
members of the House.
The Reform Party criticized the plan on one hand and on the
other hand some of its representatives, at least one for use, said
do the same thing another way, in spades, $150,000 a year. It is
interesting but we cannot walk both sides of the street on this
issue.
I am a strong supporter of pension plans for members of
Parliament for the reasons I have outlined. Whether the package
is too rich is a matter of debate. We decided it should be
modified somewhat. We also decided it was essential to preserve
it. Sooner or later all of us here will not be here any more. All of
us will face a new reality as we go on to resume our lives or go on
to new lives.
All the populist rhetoric in the world does not allow us to
escape from that reality. I know it has been very popular to zero
in on MP perks, as they are called. I have not found any yet but I
am still looking. It annoys me to no end. The reality is if
pensions are done away with the next generation of members
will make a decision based on whether there is security at the
end of its tenure. If there is limitation on the availability of
standing for election the quality of governing will decline
remarkably.
(1330)
It was done for a reason. We have taken a lot of brickbats
because the pension plan exists. I think that is due to a general
lack of understanding of the reality. There is even a lack of
understanding that the pension plan as we have it is
contributory, that we actually contribute a portion of our own
salaries to the plan.
I support the bill we are debating today. I support the changes
being made. However, I think we should all very seriously
consider the realities of life and not just the populism that we
think everyone wants to hear.
Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay West-Revelstoke, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I intend to speak primarily on one aspect of the bill the
opting out section. However, I cannot begin until I make a
comment on the speech of the hon. member who just spoke.
He made it sound as though we would be destitute without the
pension and that the Reform Party proposes that there should be
no pension. We have no problem with the concept of a pension,
only that it should be a pension that is reasonable and fair, given
the marketplace and given the economic conditions in which
Canada and Canadian taxpayers find themselves.
The hon. member for St. Boniface rose in the House and,
shedding great crocodile tears, informed us of the hardship of 60
per cent of the MPs who are retired and who have to somehow
make do on less than $29,900 a year. My heart really goes out to
them. That is a real hardship, I am sure, given that we are asking
Canadian taxpayers who make less than that in total income,
who are trying to raise their families and pay mortgages, pay
taxes so that we can then-
Mr. Duhamel: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. My
comments are being interpreted completely inaccurately. I did
not say that those people were destitute. I pointed out that we
were being misled into thinking that high pensions-
12359
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Order. I must report to the
House and the member that is not a point of order. Certainly it
might be a matter of debate before the House.
Mr. Gouk: Mr. Speaker, I will clarify that he did not suggest
they were destitute, but he did seem to shed some tears for their
situation. Many of those people who are somehow scraping by
on less than $29,900 a year are in their fifties, in their forties,
and some are even in their thirties. Perhaps they have found
themselves a job and they are able to support themselves.
Another comment, which involves the specific point that I
wish to address, which is opting out, was made at the start of this
whole debate by the chief government whip. The chief
government whip used the word hypocrisy. I am really surprised
to hear him use that word, given the hypocrisy on the
government side over the whole issue of opting out. The opting
out is the biggest hypocrisy this government has ever dumped on
the floor of the House. If the Liberals were serious about opting
out, they would have offered any conditions that could have
been offered that did not cost the taxpayers money.
Opting out means a refund of contributions. This is what they
are offering. The majority of that refund cannot simply be
transferred to an RRSP. Contributions paid by MPs are
specifically earmarked for retirement. During the period of
contribution MPs are cut off from an RRSP contribution due to
the fact that they are participating in a registered plan. The total
amount MPs pay into the government plan is less than the
amount they would have been allowed to contribute through an
RRSP if they were not blocked from doing so.
(1335)
If the Liberal Party were really interested in saving the
taxpayers money, it would make opting out a more attractive
alternative. Why is it not doing this? If opting out were handled
seriously instead of punitively, the Liberals may find that many
of their own members would be opting out, and this would
embarrass the government. They cannot have that. What is
more, they would run into a situation where suddenly, with so
many people opting out, they would have a problem justifying
continuing the old plan for those few members who remain and
may be forced to give up the lucrative pension for those who are
looking forward to this high income for life.
What could they have done? What is the alternative? One
alternative is to create a matching RRSP contribution, pure and
simple: 50 per cent from the MP and 50 per cent from the
government. The advantage to this is that it is $1 to $1 instead of
the old $6 to $1, which has only been dropped by half a point in
the new proposal. Now they have mixed some accounting magic
and say that given the number of people who drop off, we will
not count them and we will not count some other things. So they
came up with some lower numbers. No matter how they play
with it, it is still considerably higher than $1 to $1. That $1 to $1
does not have the potential of any kind of accounting magic
whatsoever. It is a real and genuine $1 to $1.
The other advantage of this is the cost to the taxpayer stops
when the service to the taxpayer stops. This would be a pure and
simple matching during the tenure of the MP, stopping as soon
as they no longer served as an MP.
The very minimum the government would offer if they were
serious about the opting out would be an amendment to the
Income Tax Act that simply allows the pension contribution
made by MPs who were opting out to be transferred into an
RRSP. This is money that was put aside for the specific purpose
of retirement. This would not involve any matching amounts,
but would ensure that money MPs have put aside for that
purpose continued to be held for retirement purposes.
Then there is the matter of the future opting out. There is
none. If this were a serious thing that we should be considering,
MPs at any time could either decide if they wanted to get into
whatever the pension plan was at the time of their election, or if
they found it as distasteful in the future as Reformers find it now
then they would have the ability to opt out as well. This is not
being offered. Once again, the Liberals are afraid that if too
many people start opting out they may be forced to do so as well.
The first speaker today, the chief government whip, started
with the word hypocrisy. That is the word I will end with. It is
hypocrisy on the part of the government to offer a facade that is
really not in the interests of taxpayers. It is only in the interests
of those high income Liberal MPs.
Mrs. Daphne Jennings (Mission-Coquitlam, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I want to speak on Bill C-85 because when I ran for
election in the 1993 campaign the MPs' pension plan was a
major concern to my constituents in Mission-Coquitlam.
As a Canadian I was angry about the lucrative plan, which is
an insult to the Canadian taxpayer. I promised when
campaigning that I would do everything I could to try to change
the MP pension plan. Today I hope there is someone in
government who is listening, someone who cares.
I know many Liberals are concerned about the plan. I am sure
there are others in the House besides Reformers who find the
existing plan repulsive and have difficulty accepting the plan as
it is.
I hope the government will take a long, hard look at the bill
and reconsider its approach to rush the bill through Parliament,
recognizing that the better process would be to allow more study
on the bill and a lengthy debate.
12360
Perhaps one major concern here is that members of
Parliament make the decisions regarding their own
remuneration. It is way past the time when MPs should set their
own wages. The public has no input. By sending 52 Reform MPs
to Ottawa, our constituents, many in the west, were saying
among other things that they were sick of the obscene pension
plan and wanted it changed.
(1340 )
Sometimes when politicians come to Ottawa they forget the
very people they are supposed to represent, the Canadian
taxpayers. I really wonder how many of the Liberal members of
Parliament visit regularly with their constituents.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mrs. Jennings: I am sure they do. I am hearing from the
opposite side that they do. What do they discuss? Surely
Canadians in the Maritimes, Quebec, Ontario and the rest of
Canada are not happy with the MP pension plan. I find it very
hard to believe that only Reform constituents are concerned
about this terrible injustice. How did this pension plan get so far
out of control?
Bill C-85 suggests some changes to the existing MP pension
plan, but are they really constructive changes? The purpose of
Bill C-85 regarding contribution and benefit rates decreases the
accrual rate from 5 per cent to 4 per cent. I understand the
recommendation was 2 per cent. This is still double the rate of
most private pension plans. It also lowers the rate at which
individual members contribute to the plan from 11 per cent to 9
per cent. If Reform MPs opt out, as they plan to do, how will this
plan be supported?
Bill C-85 proposes a very generous age for retirement, 55
years of age. I started a new career at 55. I am sure that with the
hardships in today's society many other Canadians are having to
look for new routes to follow as well. I believe 60 or 65 would be
more appropriate to discuss as a future MP retirement age with a
pension.
Bill C-85 eliminates double dipping, although we see benefits
will continue to grow under generous inflation indexing
provisions. I am concerned about the opting in clause, which
requires that MPs who wish to be included in the plan indicate
this within 60 days of the bill receiving royal assent, but further
that those MPs can never get back into the plan.
Reformers are committed to reform, and reform means to
change things that need to be changed. If Reformers stick with
determination and commitment to work to change the way
government legislation reads at this time and if they should be
successful in finally bringing about a decent pension plan that is
comparable to the private sector plans, then why would
Reformers or anyone else disgusted with the present
government abuse of taxpayers' dollars who had previously
opted out of this plan not be entitled to receive a more decent
pension plan?
I am not against pension plans. It is my firm belief that
everyone who works is entitled to a decent pension plan, one that
in this case should reflect that government is living within its
means. Members of Parliament should receive pensions that are
comparable to those that ordinary Canadians receive in the
private sector and that meet all requirements for registration
under the Income Tax Act. This bill clearly does not accomplish
this. Reform has called for the government to bring their
pensions down to private sector levels. Clearly they have failed
to do this.
Reformers are average people, with families and mortgages.
They would love to belong to a reasonable pension plan. These
so-called reductions to the Liberals' pension plan barely make a
dent in the cost to taxpayers. According to Treasury Board
officials, most of the savings we will see are actually due to
actuarial factors, not the government's changes.
Taxpayers are still paying over three and a half times as much
as the individual members are for their pensions, with $3.50
from the government for every $1 for the Liberal contributor.
The taxpayer's contribution is still too much. The only thing I
like about the Liberals' pension scheme is that all MPs have a
chance to opt out; in other words, to make a statement. They can
tell the government to leave this money where it belongs: in the
taxpayers' pockets. That is what all of the Reform MPs are
doing.
Members in the House are in a very privileged position. As I
have said before, not only do we make laws and budgets that
affect all Canadians, we also set our own remuneration, our own
salaries, our own pensions and our own perks. This is a
responsibility not many people have, and one that must be
protected from abuse. Herein lies the problem.
Perhaps the most disturbing part of all this is the
government's attempt to hide just how generous their plan really
is. They tell us in the public accounts how much each member
spends maintaining their office or travelling and how much their
salary is, but they will not tell us the cost of their pension. This
information must be made readily available now and in the
future. How else can the public judge the fairness of this
scheme?
In an effort to skirt the issue of MPs' pensions in the next
election, new MPs elected to the 36th Parliament will not be
allowed to opt out. The Liberals do not seem to realize that until
substantive reforms are made to this plan, likely by a Reform
government, it will continue to be an election issue. The
government professes to have brought down a tough budget. I do
not think it was tough enough, certainly not in this area.
12361
(1345)
We cannot keep spending money we do not have. The interest
payments are killing our jobs and our economy. Watching the
government cut the benefits other Canadians get and raise taxes
on necessities like gasoline and utilities, so far it appears the
only thing the budget has been tough on are taxpayers' wallets.
It is time to admit we cannot afford to pay millions of dollars in
retirement benefits to politicians
I remind all members how privileged a position we hold. It is a
position of trust. Not only do we make decisions that affect all
Canadians, we also establish our own remuneration. Not many
people have this power and responsibility. We must guard
against its abuse.
The best protection against abuse would be the introduction of
citizen based powers like initiative, referendum and recall. In
the absence of these measures it is a pretty clear indication this
power is being misused when 52 members feel they must opt out
of the government's pension plan on principle.
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George-Peace River, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the government has demonstrated once again it lacks
the will to get the job done. It cannot balance the budget. It does
not understand Canadians want concrete and not imaginary
changes to the justice system and it has failed to introduce real
MP pension reform. Canadians are tired of making sacrifices,
tightening their belts and watching the government squander
their tax dollars.
We saw what happened after the government failed to bring in
a tough budget. Moody's downgraded our credit rating when it
became clear the government is not committed to eliminating
the deficit. Likewise, these cosmetic changes to the MP pension
plan prove the government is not serious about MP pension
reform either.
Canadians have seen the government waste countless dollars
on study after study, review after review, with no tangible
results. Bill C-85 is yet another charade with few substantive
reductions to the extravagant MP pension plan. The government
knows that due to its lack of hard fiscal policies there will be
difficult days ahead. It knows if it does not tackle the debt
Canadians will have fewer social safety nets left at the end of the
day. Does it care? Obviously not. It is padding its own
retirement coffers while it ignores a looming financial crisis.
How serious is it about getting Canadians back to work and
turning the economy around if it is going to such great lengths to
protect an exorbitant MP pension plan?
With the ever increasing debt, will the Canada pension plan
survive? With rising debt service payments, will the government
cut deeper into RRSP savings plans? At the same time as it sets
ridiculously low targets for tackling the deficit it makes
taxpayers pay ridiculously high amounts into MP pensions.
Young people saving money now may not have enough put
away to live above the poverty line when they retire. Yet MPs
will receive fully indexed pensions at age 60, indexed from the
moment they retire from public office.
The government has its priorities screwed up. MPs are here to
serve Canadians. Canadians are not here to serve the interests of
MPs. They will not stand for these double standards much
longer. Canadians will still pay $3.60 for every dollar an MP
puts into this plan. Why can the government not bring it into line
with private schemes? Why can it not face reality and realize
even MPs must tighten their belts?
Time and again as we have questioned the Prime Minister
about excessive MP pensions we have seen him avoid the real
issues. Time and again we have seen him deflect the discussion
about retirement plans and begin to talk about MP salaries.
These are two distinct issues and he knows it. We are discussing
pensions today, not salaries. I am perfectly willing to discuss
salaries. Do not confuse an extravagant retirement plan with the
argument that MPs are underpaid while they hold office.
If the Prime Minister wants to discuss salaries, fine. First he
can set the wage at what it should be and take away the special
allowances. Get rid of the tax free allowance and provide an
equivalent in taxable income. Get rid of the $6,000 travel
allowance we use to maintain a second residence in Ottawa and
make sure our income will cover the additional costs we must
incur. Do not avoid an honest debate on the validity and
sustainability of the proposed pension plan by throwing up
smoke and mirrors about the unrelated issue of salaries.
(1350)
The truth is the government knows this plan is too generous
and knows the public will not support it if it is debated on its own
merit.
There is a one time opt out clause. Only members of this 35th
Parliament will ever be able to opt out of the plan. There is a
significant financial disincentive for the class of `88 to opt out
because all of the money it has accrued in the pension plan since
1988 will be returned to its members in one lump sum this tax
year. Only one-third of it can be rolled into RRSPs or private
retirement plans and the rest will be taxed this year if they
choose to opt out.
While we are on the subject of how insubstantial the changes
to the MP retirement plan are, I ask the government why it did
not consider a mechanism for making some of these changes
retroactive. Why has the government not included a clause
which would allow us to buy out the multi-million dollar
pension packages some of the sitting MPs will be looking at
12362
when they lose their seats in the next election? They will still be
in their forties but entitled to fully indexed pensions.
Is this an admission that spending too long in this place leaves
one incapable of doing anything else? I notice Reformers are
opting out and confident of supporting themselves, so perhaps
this inability to find gainful employment has something to do
with being tied to traditional parties, reliant on traditional perks
and privileges.
The government does not want MP pensions to come up as an
election issue next time around, but I have news for the
government. Until the MP pension plan is brought into line with
private pension plans it will be an issue at every election. As
more Canadians realize that despite their best efforts they will
not have enough to retire on, they will look at retired MPs
supported by public funds and grow increasingly bitter.
Yes, we work long hours in this job. Yes, we frequently work
seven days a week. Yes, we must make sacrifices and spend time
away from our families to do our jobs properly, but so do a lot of
other Canadians. They get paid for the time they put in. They do
not expect an unrealistic, unsustainable retirement plan as a
result of their hard work.
As a grain farmer I have grown up expecting I will have to
take responsibility for my own retirement. Farmers know there
will be good crop years and there will be droughts. We have to
plan ahead to make sure we can get through the bad years. That
also means putting money aside for old age.
Farmers, like all small business people, do not have a
company pension to rely on. Small business is the economic
backbone of the country and the driving force behind new
employment opportunities, and yet most small businesses
cannot afford pension plans for their employees and everyone
must save for their own retirement.
It would be nice if all Canadians had a pension plan as lavish
as that of MPs, but let us be realistic. Why should taxpayers
support someone so generously just because they held public
office for six or more years?
I never believed other Canadians should be responsible for
supporting me after age 60 or 65 and I certainly have not
changed my views since I was elected. MPs are no different than
other Canadians. We just have a different job. Yes, it carries a lot
of responsibility but we chose to go into politics.
If the government cannot bring the MP pension plan into line
with private pension plans it is holding MPs up as more
deserving than other hard working Canadians. I do not believe
that is the case and that is why I will be opting out.
I did not get into politics for the retirement plan. I came here
to help change things for the better. Maybe that is idealistic of
me but at least I will be true to my principles. When I look across
the floor to my hon. colleagues, the vast majority of whom will
accept this plan, I cannot help but wonder how they can look
some of their constituents in the eye.
In my riding office I receive calls from seniors concerned
about missing income security cheques. I receive calls from
people on unemployment looking for work. I receive calls from
people on disability pensions. These Canadians have a tough
time making ends meet, even if their cheques are a few days late.
That is how close to the line they are. Yet the government is
asking taxpayers to toss almost four times as much as we do into
our personal retirement funds.
(1355)
How can my Liberal colleagues across the way opt into this
generous pension plan and then turn to help their constituents
with no shred of shame? I know I could not.
If the government had the best interests of Canadians at heart
it would bring the MP pension plan into line with private
pension schemes and demonstrate a real commitment to fiscal
responsibility to ensure all Canadians will be able to retire in
comfort.
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I will
approach this issue in a slightly different way than my
colleagues have. I thank the members opposite for providing an
issue that will guarantee my re-election in Macleod.
As I campaigned this was a significant issue. I tried to figure
out in my community why this had become so symbolic of what
is wrong with government. I tried to figure out why this was a
flash point for the public at home for me.
I found that during the campaign when the question was asked
of all the members who were running in my area what they
thought of the MP pension plan, the incumbent said nothing. The
Liberal candidate said: ``I will not take the plan''. The NDP
candidate said: ``I will not take the plan''. I found myself
aligned with those two individuals.
I looked for a different way to say to those potential
constituents of mine that I will not take the plan. I wrote in
public a letter to my constituents: ``I, Grant Hill, the Reform
Party candidate for the Macleod riding, do hereby state that I
strongly oppose the current MP pension plan. I will not accept
this pension if I become eligible for it and I will do everything
that I can do to reform the plan and make it fair''.
Then I had the people of my constituency witness it. I went
around to my public meetings. I am sure members opposite
would like me to table this document. I am willing to do that.
12363
The Speaker: The hon. member will have the floor when we
resume debate. It being 2 p.m., we will now proceed to
Statements by Members.
_____________________________________________
12363
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[
English]
Mr. Gar Knutson (Elgin-Norfolk, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise today to congratulate Winnipeg city council for its initiative
in keeping 1,500 obsolete police revolvers from finding their
way back on to the streets.
The city council was offered $115 per gun as a trade in
allowance. However, this forward thinking municipal council
chose to melt down these weapons because the manufacturer
was to resell them to an American arm's dealer. One can only
imagine how many of these would fall into the hands of
irresponsible gun owners and how many tragedies would follow.
Because of the actions of this council I am convinced lives
have been spared. Those who contribute $115 to Winnipeg's
retire a gun scheme to help offset the lost revenue should also be
commended.
This is an option that Canadians should be encouraging other
municipalities to choose. Congratulations, Winnipeg.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Gérard Asselin (Charlevoix, BQ): Mr. Speaker, as a
tribute to the people of Russia and the former USSR, who
suffered over half of the human casualties of the second world
war, the Prime Minister is participating today in Russia's last
round of celebrations marking the 50th anniversary of the Nazis'
capitulation.
Moscow has stated that it intends to pursue its military
offensive in Chechnya as soon as the celebrations are over.
Instead of treating the Russian authorities with complacency,
we hope that the Prime Minister will have the courage to
publicly state Canada's opposition to this war and to vigorously
protest the massacre of Chechens.
We hope that the Prime Minister will use some other means to
get his message across than what he used in China, which was to
discretely whisper it in the ear of his counterpart.
[English]
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the deliberations of the government operations committee on
contracting out have been hampered because annual contracting
activity reports have not been approved for release by Treasury
Board.
For two years Treasury Board has held up these reports even
though they are required by Treasury Board's own guidelines.
Responding to a question in the House, the minister promised
these reports by the end of April. Now it is mid-May and the
committee is still in the dark with no way of knowing the year to
year status of government-wide contracting activities.
What will the report show about contracting out? What does
the government have to hide? Where are these reports?
There are enough members of Treasury Board on Parliament
Hill right here, right now to hold a short meeting and approve the
release for these two documents. I call on the President of the
Treasury Board to fulfill his promise by approving the annual
contracting activity reports for release today, not as soon as
possible, do it now.
* * *
Mr. Rey D. Pagtakhan (Winnipeg North, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, May 12, 1870 marked the entry of Manitoba into
Canadian Confederation which we celebrate this week.
Canada and Manitoba have since this union strengthened each
other in politics, culture and social and economic prosperity.
We are known for our 100,000 lakes as much as we are known
for the multicultural richness of our people, a microcosm of
Canada. I am a proud Canadian; I am a proud Manitoban. It has
been my privilege to call it home for the past 27 years. Our four
sons have known no other home.
Many Manitobans have excelled in various fields of human
endeavour in the history of our nation, including a former
governor general and a former chief justice of the Supreme
Court of Canada.
Manitoba prides itself in being a member of the Canadian
family. Please join me in wishing my home province a happy
125th birthday. Welcome to Manitoba.
* * *
Mr. John Murphy (Annapolis Valley-Hants, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am wearing a pin to honour Canada's 263,000
registered nurses during this, National Nurses Week. This year's
12364
theme, ``Your Families' Health-Nurses Make the Difference'',
will allow us to focus on the valuable contribution nurses make
to the overall health of Canadians.
Nurses play a vital role in providing care and support for
families while assisting them in making meaningful choices
during challenging times. As well, nurses provide information
and assistance in health promotion, illness prevention and
during periods of illness and recovery.
I have spent 30 years in the public health field. I know
firsthand the important role nurses play. I am therefore
honoured to rise today to offer my thanks to all those individuals
who chose nursing as a career. Through their efforts they truly
make a positive impact on the health of Canadians.
* * *
Mr. Paul Steckle (Huron-Bruce, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, 50
years have passed since the allied victory in Europe. That
victory was, as we know by our cost, hard fought and dearly paid
for. Canadians, united in the struggle for a better world, fought
shoulder to shoulder with their brothers in arms to bring
freedom and peace to Europe, almost broken on the wheel of
war.
In my constituency of Huron-Bruce we have a strong Dutch
community. Its people are proud to be Canadian and their
energetic contribution to our community is a continuing and
valued one.
They say, as we must echo, those years of horror must never
be allowed to return. I know I speak for all of us when I say we
must never forget what price was paid for freedom 50 years ago.
In remembrance and in gratitude to those who gave all that was
theirs to give, let us dedicate ourselves to working toward a
better world for ourselves and those who follow us so that the
sacrifice of those who have gone before may not have been in
vain.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Yvan Bernier (Gaspé, BQ): Mr. Speaker, desperately in
need of francophone spokespersons for federalism in Quebec,
the federal Liberals recruited a former minister from the
Bourassa and Johnson governments.
Not even six months after her recruitment, the Minister of
Labour has already done a brilliant job of assimilating the credo
of the proponents of very centralized, orthodox federalism.
Yesterday, she abandoned Quebec's minimum demand,
recognition as a distinct society. In the same breath, she forgot
all of the years she spent defending the five minimum conditions
set in Meech, promoting the Allaire report and fighting the
federal government's infringement on areas of provincial
jurisdiction as a member of the Liberal Party in Quebec.
(1405)
It is regrettable that the Minister of Labour's political
ambitions have made her betray the convictions she had up until
her arrival in Ottawa.
* * *
[
English]
Mr. Ed Harper (Simcoe Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, Ontario
and indeed all of Canada has lost a distinguished and dedicated
Canadian with the passing of John Black Aird.
Mr. Aird served his country extremely well in several ways
over a number of years. During the war he served as a lieutenant
in the Canadian navy. After serving in the Senate for 10 years,
from 1964 to 1974, he served as Lieutenant Governor of Ontario
from 1980 to 1985. In both of these positions he gained the
respect and admiration of all those he worked with.
His caring and concern for Canadians was vividly
demonstrated when as lieutenant governor he devoted much of
his time to helping the disabled.
John Black Aird served his country well; a fine role model to
all who hold public office. Canada has lost a statesman and we
share this loss with his family.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
* * *
Mr. John Solomon (Regina-Lumsden, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
I offer my congratulations to the Saskatchewan NDP
government for its initiative on capping MLA pensions and
abolishing the premier's pension bonus.
The Saskatchewan NDP has set an example for the Liberal
government to follow. I challenge the Liberals to abolish the
special bonus pension for the Prime Minister which totals
$50,000.
The Saskatchewan NDP has proven its commitment to fiscal
responsibility and fairness with a money purchase pension plan
for MLAs that has been in place for 16 years.
Unfortunately the Liberal government did the absolute
minimum in addressing the concerns of Canadians with respect
to MP pensions. The government did just enough to make the
pension issue go away. However, it is an improvement over the
Reform Party idea of doubling MP salaries.
Unlike the Reform Party, New Democrats have respected the
concerns of taxpayers by keeping both salaries and pensions in
check. This is an issue on which the Reformers and Liberals
12365
come together in their race to the trough. They are taking
different routes but end up in the same place.
* * *
Ms. Albina Guarnieri (Mississauga East, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I offer sincere congratulations to the CBC on its
coverage of the Victory in Europe celebrations.
I am sure members from both sides of the House will join me
in praising the CBC for its reporting of these important events,
including eight hours of broadcasting on the main television
service during prime time.
[Translation]
I would like to congratulate the employees of the CBC for this
coverage, which will benefit not only those who lived through
those war time horrors, but also future generations who will
want to remember the sacrifices their ancestors made.
[English]
I am confident all Canadians are proud of the men and women
who contributed so courageously to that victory 50 years ago
and also applaud the men and women who ensure those actions
live in our memories.
We will not forget those men and women as well as their
sacrifices due in part to the work of our national public
broadcaster in bringing these once in a lifetime celebrations to
the attention of our citizens.
* * *
Ms. Bonnie Brown (Oakville-Milton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
last week when the House passed the motion by the member for
Mission-Coquitlam, we together affirmed that we regard the
opinions of grandparents regarding the welfare of their
grandchildren as important. I hope we assign the same
importance to their opinions when they speak on the issues of
the day.
This morning a small group of grandparents gathered outside
the Centre Block to express their views on gun control and Bill
C-68. In costumes they sang humorous songs in support of gun
registration which they see as an integral part of civic
responsibility. It was the Ottawa chapter of the ``Raging
Grannies'', a nationwide group of grandmothers advocating
world peace. Its members see our legislation as a logical next
step in their efforts to ensure a safer social environment for their
grandchildren.
We all understand the special love and dedication
grandparents have for their grandchildren. We recognized it last
week. We would do well to heed their advice on all issues which
affect the welfare of children.
(1410)
As a mother and grandmother I welcome and support the
participation of the ``Raging Grannies''-
The Speaker: The hon. member for Niagara Falls.
* * *
Mr. Gary Pillitteri (Niagara Falls, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this
weekend Niagara Falls celebrates the 36th anniversary of the
blossom festival parade.
The tender fruit lands of Ontario delight us with the beauty of
their blossoms. Its industry, which contributes to our economy,
is also the source of 15,000 jobs.
A severe crisis is facing the industry. Its survival may well
depend on the implementation of the strategic plan completed
by the working group on December 19, 1994. Because of
escalating labour costs, tariff cutbacks under the free trade
agreement and the deregulation of the industry, growers are
experiencing heavy ongoing losses.
Imports control prices so growers cannot recover cost
increases from the market and the lands are frozen for
agricultural purposes.
The recommendations contained in the revitalization plan
may provide workable solutions to the problem.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Louis Plamondon (Richelieu, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday the Minister of Labour dismissed out of hand the
modest constitutional demands of the president of the No camp
in Quebec, Mr. Daniel Johnson.
When asked to comment on Mr. Johnson's remarks that some
day, Canada would recognize Quebec's national identity, which
in political terms would translate into new powers, the minister
answered as follows: ``We will see what that means. This is very
difficult. Do not ask me to comment. I do not even know what he
is talking about''.
After criticizing the federal government's policies on
education, health and manpower training, after urging the rest of
Canada to recognize Quebec as a distinct society, the minister
has now become the apostle of quiet resignation. Instead of
representing Quebec in Ottawa, the Minister of Labour willingly
echoes the federal position in Quebec.
* * *
[
English]
Mr. David Chatters (Athabasca, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I rise in
the House today to mark the third anniversary of the Westray
mine disaster.
12366
The tragedy claimed the lives of 26 miners and plunged the
community of Plymouth, Nova Scotia into a state of grief. Sadly
in many ways the healing process will not begin until an ongoing
public inquiry has done its work and miners' families have
answers to the most basic questions-why?
As a guest in the riding of Central Nova last summer I was
struck by the enormous sense of community and warmth among
the people who had to bear this tragedy. The fact that hazards of
mining are well recognized does not make the tragedy any easier
to bear.
It follows that today our sympathy should be with the miners'
families and the community as they commemorate those who
died. We should also recognize the courage of not only those
who labour far beneath the earth's surface but of those who
risked their lives in an effort to rescue the survivors of the blast.
I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the victims of the
Westray disaster, the families and the community still mourning
the 26 men who lost their lives underground.
* * *
Mr. John Maloney (Erie, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, our health care
system is one of Canada's proudest and most envied
achievements. Every Canadian has a right to receive the care he
or she needs when sick, regardless of personal circumstances. It
is an affirmation of Canada's commitment to human dignity.
The constituents of Erie were concerned about the future of
the health care system. Unlike Bob Rae's government, the
Ontario Liberals have a plan to protect the province's health care
system.
I am pleased to see that today Ontario Liberal Lyn McLeod
announced her vision of health care for the province, including
the establishment of a health research and development council,
a call-in care pilot project, expanded 911 and restoration of
health care coverage for out of country emergency services.
Medicare was introduced and developed by a succession of
Liberal governments, providing a tangible example of the
commitment of all Liberals to compassionate public policy.
The government also has plans for the well-being of
Canadians. We will not withdraw from or abandon the health
care field. We will not accept the notion of a two tier health care
system, one for the rich and one for the poor, one for the
advantaged provinces and one for less advantaged provinces.
Thanks to the government and the plans of Lyn McLeod's
Liberals, Erie constituents can put their fears of a Bob Rae
health care system to rest.
(1415)
Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur (Lambton-Middlesex, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have learned that Ontario NDP Premier Bob Rae is
campaigning today in my riding of Lambton-Middlesex. I
imagine Mr. Rae is also continuing with his dialogue of
misinformation with respect to federal funding for health and
how this is supposedly resulting in hospital cutbacks in long
term care and so on.
Let me set the record straight. The federal commitment to
medicare in Canada and in Ontario is as strong as ever. Contrary
to what Mr. Rae has been spreading, federal EPF health transfers
to Ontario have been rising over the term of this government. At
the same time the Ontario government has been cutting the
amount it spends on health care.
By rolling all transfers into one, the Canada health and social
transfer, the federal government is strengthening its ability to
enforce the Canada Health Act.
Liberals do not need to take any lessons from Mr. Rae on
medicare. After all, Liberals introduced the Canada Health Act
in 1984. We have always defended strong and reliable funding of
medicare and we always will.
_____________________________________________
12366
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[
Translation]
Hon. Lucien Bouchard (Leader of the Opposition, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, in its first budget in February 1994, the federal
government announced it was cutting an additional $2 billion
from its contribution to provincial social programs in 1995-96
and 1996-97. In its second budget, it hit the provinces a second
time by offloading its deficit in the form of new cuts that will
total $2.5 billion in 1996-97 and $4.5 billion in 1997-98.
My question is directed to the Minister of Finance. Would he
confirm that according to the distribution formula for the
Canada social transfer in Bill C-76, the latest budget's
additional cuts in transfer payments to the provinces will, next
year alone, result in a shortfall of $650 million for Quebec?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance and Minister
responsible for the Federal Office of Regional
Development-Quebec, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, next year, I
believe the shortfall for Quebec will be about $350 million.
In fact, this amount is well below 2 per cent of Quebec's
revenues. If we consider the cuts imposed on other provinces,
Quebec has been treated very well.
12367
Hon. Lucien Bouchard (Leader of the Opposition, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, I challenge the minister to deny what I am going to
say, considering what I just said. Under the item ``transfer
payments to the provinces'' Quebec's loss, for this year alone,
will be $650 million. That is what was said, Mr. Speaker.
And I would ask the Minister of Finance to confirm that over
the next three years, additional cuts announced in his first two
budgets will mean, in the case of Quebec, a total shortfall of
more than $3 billion in funding for health care, post-secondary
education and social assistance.
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance and Minister
responsible for the Federal Office of Regional
Development-Quebec, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have had this
debate in the House before. I must say the Leader of the
Opposition is just tossing off figures at random. No decision has
been made concerning transfer payments for the years after the
first year in which cuts will be made. It is quite clear that we are
going to negotiate with the provinces and subsequently reach a
decision.
Now I would like to ask the Leader of the Opposition the
following question: Is he saying this is the way he wants these
cuts? That is certainly not how we see it.
Hon. Lucien Bouchard (Leader of the Opposition, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, I must say I understand why the Minister of
Finance is too embarrassed to admit that these figures were
taken directly from his own budget.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Bouchard: I would refer the minister more specifically
to page 17 of his budget speech, where he announced that he was
prepared to fund social assistance the same way the government
funds transfers for health and post-secondary education, in
other words, on a per capita basis, as opposed to real need.
Consequently, would the Minister of Finance agree that based
on these criteria, the main victim of the cuts in his latest budget
will be Quebec, which in 1997-98 will be saddled with 41.7 per
cent of the cuts or $1.9 billion, and that this is why he refuses to
discuss these cuts publicly within the framework of a
federal-provincial conference to be held before the referendum?
(1420)
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance and Minister
responsible for the Federal Office of Regional
Development-Quebec, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, once again, the
Leader of the Opposition is creating a problem where none
exists, perhaps because he cannot find enough issues to
criticize. First of all, I said that I was prepared-and it is my
intention-to have a federal-provincial conference with my
counterparts, as soon as all provinces have tabled their budgets.
The provinces asked us to wait until they had all tabled their
budgets.
Second, the Leader of the Opposition is drawing certain
conclusions from talks that have yet to be finalized. Yes, we did
provide overall figures, but it is clear it will depend on the
outcome of the negotiations.
[English]
It is beyond belief to hear the Leader of the Opposition. Six
provinces have said that they will have to absorb over 217 per
cent of the cuts. It is a mathematical impossibility.
What amazes me is not that an individual minister of finance
or premier of a province would fall into that trap, but that the
Leader of the Opposition would basically say that he has so little
faith in the capacity of Quebecers to negotiate on their own
behalf that he would concede the argument beforehand. It is the
same kind of thing that he has done consistently, that is he has
conceded that Quebec cannot make it in Confederation. Let me
tell him as a Quebecer that Quebec can make it in Confederation.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski-Témiscouata, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Canadian
Heritage.
While the francophone and Acadian communities struggle to
conserve their rights with exceedingly limited financial
resources, we discover that, under the 1994-95 budget, the
Minister of Canadian Heritage subsidized the CRB Foundation
to the tune of $2 million from official language programs in
order to finance a series of historical vignettes to be broadcast
on television.
How can the minister justify such a substantial grant-$2
million-to the Bronfman Foundation, which is managed by
Tom Axworthy, the brother of the Minister of Human Resources
Development, whereas in 1992-93, the last year the public
accounts recorded a figure, this organization received only
$200,000, or ten times less?
Hon. Michel Dupuy (Minister of Canadian Heritage,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am the Minister of Canadian Heritage and
proud to be. I am interested in Canadian heritage. When a group
is prepared to help put our heritage in a historical context, I
support it. This Bronfman Foundation project is a magnificent
one, but clearly of no interest to our colleagues. These vignettes
have done a lot of good in teaching people about the history of
Quebec and of the rest of Canada.
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski-Témiscouata, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, while the budget of all the organizations receiving
government support has been significantly cut, are we to
understand that the more than substantial increase given the
Bronf-
12368
man Foundation has to do with the particular lobbying abilities
of its officials or with the imminence of the Quebec referendum?
Hon. Michel Dupuy (Minister of Canadian Heritage,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the government's support is based on only
one thing: the quality of the product they have put on the screen.
* * *
[
English]
Mr. Preston Manning (Calgary Southwest, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the President of the Treasury Board is one of the chief
ministers responsible for fiscal restraint in government. That
means one of his jobs is to promote the prudent use of taxpayers'
funds among public servants and the recipients of government
services.
There is no way the minister can do that effectively while at
the same time promoting and defending an obscenely generous
pension plan for members of Parliament.
(1425)
Does the President of the Treasury Board appreciate that for
him job one in promoting fiscal responsibility is to kill the
Cadillac MP pension plan?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (President of the Treasury Board
and Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, as I have indicated many times before, the government
promised during the election campaign that it would deal with
the issues of double dipping and a minimum age for pension.
We have dealt with the commitments, the obligations we have
made. We have gone beyond that because we recognize this is a
period of fiscal restraint. It is a period of time we need to get our
house in order, to get the deficit and the debt down. We have
reduced the contribution, the members of Parliament
compensation, by some 33 per cent.
Mr. Preston Manning (Calgary Southwest, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, if the minister is going to defend the plan he is going to
have to defend the real numbers.
These are the numbers: $2.5 million for the Deputy Prime
Minister, $3.1 million for the Minister of Health, $3.6 million
for the minister of public works, $3.9 million for the minister of
fisheries, $4.5 million for the member for Sherbrooke-
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Manning: These are the numbers that the minister should
admit are indefensible.
How can the President of the Treasury Board possibly justify
those numbers to taxpayers or to seniors when the finance
minister is planning to reduce pensions for ordinary Canadians?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (President of the Treasury Board
and Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the leader of the Reform Party and his entire party, as
we have seen many times in the past when dealing with
budgetary issues and pension issues, have a way of extremely
exaggerating and taking out of context the figures relevant to
compensation.
They sure know how to put forward the Cadillac when it
comes to increasing the compensation for members. Over a 50
per cent increase in compensation is what they have suggested
while the government is reducing it by some 33 per cent. Over a
130 per cent increase in salaries is what they recommend. That is
unconscionable.
The government does not stand for that. The government
stands for fiscal restraint.
Mr. Preston Manning (Calgary Southwest, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the principal issue in MP compensation, and everyone
in the House knows it, is the MP pension plan. What Canadians
would accept as fair in the plan is one where the government
matches MP contributions on a one to one basis.
What the minister is trying to justify under pressure from the
Deputy Prime Minister and others is a scheme where taxpayers
contribute over $3.50 to every $1 that the Liberal fat packers
contribute.
Will the minister do the honourable thing? Will he do the
prudent thing? Will he do the fiscally responsible thing and
bring the MP pension plan into line with those available to other
Canadians?
The Speaker: The President of the Treasury Board.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (President of the Treasury Board
and Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I appreciate the standing ovation for me.
This exercise is about what is fiscally prudent. That is what
the government is doing. That is not what the Reform Party is
doing.
The bottom line is what it will cost taxpayers. What we are
proposing will cost taxpayers less. What they propose will cost
taxpayers more.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.
12369
At a seminar organized by the Public Policy Forum in March,
the Deputy Minister of Human Resources Development,
Jean-Jacques Noreau, opened up to the participants, saying that
his department's first challenge was to rethink the UI program.
He even went as far as to state that it might be necessary to
create a new federal-provincial agency, composed of
government, business and labour representatives, to administer
the UI fund.
(1430)
Can the Minister of Human Resources Development confirm
his deputy minister's statement, and why does he stubbornly
refuse to call a meeting of human resources and employment
ministers right now so that they can discuss this issue?
[English]
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Human Resources
Development and Minister of Western Economic
Diversification, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, at the present time we are
looking very carefully at a wide number of proposals that we
received during the public consultations last fall, the report
from the House of Commons committee, the special report on
seasonal work, and the representations we have received from a
number of businesses, communities and union organizations.
We are pulling together all that information to look at what we
think would be the best form of arrangements for a new
unemployment insurance program. A number of different
models are being considered, but no decision has been made yet.
There has been no policy established. It is now simply a matter
of putting those different proposals together.
As was indicated in the budget speech, we will be presenting a
new form of proposals some time in the fall. I hope the hon.
member can restrain her impatience until that time. I think she
most of all would want us to do the job carefully, with prudence,
to make sure that everybody's representation is listened to and
responded to.
[Translation]
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, is the
minister aware that there has been no federal-provincial
conference since January 1993, that is to say, since the minister
has been in charge of this important portfolio, while the
provinces have been hard hit by the decisions made, especially
with respect to unemployment insurance?
Far from trying to get out of job training, as demanded by all
stakeholders in Quebec, does the minister not intend mainly to
make the UI fund bear the costs of training not only the
unemployed but also welfare recipients?
[English]
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Human Resources
Development and Minister of Western Economic
Diversification, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I suppose various members
could engage in all kinds of idle speculation and put up their pet
proposals.
If the hon. member is making a representation today that she
thinks we should be using unemployment insurance money for
social assistance, we will certainly take that into account. If that
is something the hon. member feels strongly about, I would hope
she would have the good grace to write it down carefully and
give me her arguments and her reasoning. I would be glad to
receive any proposals the hon. member would like to make.
* * *
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Justice.
In light of the analysis done by the Library of Parliament,
which indicates that part of the gun legislation might be
challenged in the courts as unconstitutional, is the justice
minister as confident as his parliamentary secretary was
yesterday in the House that all aspects of Bill C-68 are in fact
constitutional?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Justice and Attorney
General of Canada, Lib.): Yes, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, weekend
newspaper reports indicate that the Minister of Justice is
considering curbing the enormous powers given to police
officers under Bill C-68 to search homes and places.
Are these reports accurate? If so, what prompted the change of
heart? Popular opinion or the threat of a court challenge?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Justice and Attorney
General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, those clippings were
drawn to my attention yesterday. My position has not changed
from what I expressed to the committee when I testified before
the hon. member and his colleagues on that committee on April
24 last.
As for the police powers to search the member should bear in
mind that the powers, as he well knows, proposed in Bill C-68
are to inspect, not to search.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Rock: Mr. Speaker, if we are not to make distinctions in
law then what is our function here? These distinctions are very
important.
The power is to inspect, which is completely consistent with
the approach taken in dozens of other statutes federally and
provincially to ensure public safety. Those powers of inspection
have been organized and presented in Bill C-68 in a fashion that
12370
has been held on more than one occasion by the Supreme Court
of Canada to be both constitutional and appropriate.
* * *
(1435)
[Translation]
Mr. Maurice Dumas (Argenteuil-Papineau, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources
Development.
According to an information sheet addressed to the staff of the
Department of Human Resources Development the government
has made decisions regarding reforms to the old age pension
system, and I quote: ``The amount of old age security benefits
will be based on combined family income''.
Since it seems that the government has already made this
decision, will the Minister of Human Resources Development
tell us how much he hopes this measure will save the
government?
[English]
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Human Resources
Development and Minister of Western Economic
Diversification, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, no decisions have been
made; no policy has been set. Again I would refer the hon.
member to the budget in which we indicated we would be
putting together a white paper to be tabled in the fall that would
set out a series of propositions dealing with the larger issue of
aging in society.
The hon. member, who is a student of that problem and is very
much engaged in the concerns of senior citizens, would
recognize that the situation is changing quite dramatically and
that we must take a look at a number of options to ensure that we
can continue a base of income security for people in their
retirement. Our number one priority is to ensure security for
people in their retirement. We will be presenting a number of
proposals that I think will meet that objective.
[Translation]
Mr. Maurice Dumas (Argenteuil-Papineau, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, before the minister rhymes off his automatic reply that
the opposition is trying to scare seniors, will he admit that this
proposal will erode the financial autonomy for which women
fought so hard, and that it will discriminate against them?
[English]
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Human Resources
Development and Minister of Western Economic
Diversification, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would be very glad to
answer that if I knew what proposal he was talking about. There
is no proposal presented.
I just told the hon. member we will be presenting a white
paper with a number of propositions this fall. At that time, if the
hon. member wants to raise questions about it, certainly we
would welcome any representation. However, to try to state that
there is already a proposition in place upon which he would like
an answer, yes or no, it is impossible until I know what
proposition the hon. member is talking about.
* * *
Ms. Val Meredith (Surrey-White Rock-South Langley,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, a few years ago CSIS recruited a young man
by the name of Luke Desilets to spy on the Aryan Nations.
Unfortunately, since last spring he has accepted the Aryan
Nations' philosophy and renounced his former ties to CSIS.
Apparently Luke now spends his time travelling between Aryan
Nation compounds throughout the United States while his
parents wonder if their son will ever be normal again.
I ask the Solicitor General: Are he and CSIS prepared to take
any responsibility for the state of this young man's life?
Hon. Herb Gray (Leader of the Government in the House
of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am not in a position to confirm the hon. member's
assertions. In any event, as the hon. member well knows, it is not
the practice to confirm or deny whether somebody may or may
not have been a source for CSIS.
Ms. Val Meredith (Surrey-White Rock-South Langley,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I think Canadians would feel a whole lot
better and have more confidence in the government if they
would spend less time using national security to defend their
mistakes and rather guarded secrets.
Charles Scott is a self-styled colonel in the Aryan Nations in
B.C. Like many of those in the white supremacist movement, he
found himself often lacking the financial resources to spread his
message of hate. But once the CSIS source showed up, Scott's
financial problems appeared to end. It seems that Luke even
provided Scott with $1,000 so he could attend the Aryan Nations
congress in Idaho last year.
Is this another example of CSIS funding the groups it is
supposed to be monitoring?
Hon. Herb Gray (Leader of the Government in the House
of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member is stating certain assertions that
appeared in the press as fact. I am not in a position to confirm
whether or not that is the case. It is not a matter of hiding behind
national security; it is respecting the law passed by this
Parliament. I would suggest the hon. member show a
willingness to do the same.
12371
[Translation]
Mrs. Pierrette Venne (Saint-Hubert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Justice.
There is a serious flaw in the Criminal Code. A justice may
order a suspect or an accused person to undergo a DNA test.
However, once the test is completed, the results are inadmissible
in the trial, even in matters of sexual assault or murder.
(1440)
In the light of the murder of Tara Manning, would the Minister
of Justice tell us whether he intends to act diligently and quickly
introduce amendments to the Criminal Code in order to fill the
legal void concerning the admissibility of the results of DNA
tests as evidence?
[English]
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Justice and Attorney
General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member raises
an important point. I met two weeks ago with the father of Tara
Manning and spoke to him about the tragedy his family had
suffered because of her murder and about the need for changes in
the law to provide, as the hon. member has said, for the
collection and use of evidence that will help in the detection and
prosecution of such crimes.
We have just completed a consultation with respect to this
issue. We are reviewing the results now. I can tell the hon.
member that it is my intention to present legislation in the House
that will amend the code to provide for the taking of bodily
samples with a search warrant for the purpose of determining the
DNA of an accused person and for the creation of data banks
whereby such samples can be stored and to which resort may be
made in future investigations.
[Translation]
Mrs. Pierrette Venne (Saint-Hubert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, is
the minister aware that, by delaying such an amendment to the
Criminal Code until the fall, most likely, he will enable people
accused of violent crimes to go free for lack of evidence? What
is the minister waiting for in order to act quickly?
[English]
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Justice and Attorney
General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, that is not entirely
right. The courts for the last seven years in Canada have been
receiving DNA evidence as proof. It has been used by
authorities to establish the guilt and from time to time the
innocence of people implicated in alleged crimes.
At present, the use of DNA samples is limited to those
circumstances in which it is found and where the court
determines that its use is consistent with principles of justice.
Our intended changes would broaden the use, both of the
taking of samples to put it on a regular lawful basis and allowing
the authorities to stockpile it to have a bank available for
reference in future investigations.
* * *
Mr. Elijah Harper (Churchill, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.
My riding in northern Manitoba suffers from the highest
unemployment, up to 90 per cent in some communities. The
services provided by the Canada employment centre in
Thompson and its satellite offices are absolutely essential.
Could the minister assure my constituents that the
reorganization of his department will not cut human resources
services in northern Manitoba?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Human Resources
Development and Minister of Western Economic
Diversification, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am certainly conscious of
the very severe unemployment situation in the hon. member's
riding. It is probably the most serious in the country.
I can assure the hon. member that the Pathways budget, which
provides services to aboriginal and First Nations peoples, has
been maintained at the same level this year. At the same time we
are endeavouring to retain the outreach services so that those
services can be maintained in the remote communities.
Let me say something that applies not just to the hon. member
but to all members. We are reorganizing the department, but I
made it very clear that the guidelines must be that any reduction
come from the overhead of the department, not from direct
services to clients, so that we have much better control and
discretion of decision at the local level. Decisions will be made
to tailor programs at the local level and maintain clear
accessibility for all citizens of Canada so they can get proper
services to get back to work.
* * *
Mr. Bob Ringma (Nanaimo-Cowichan, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the information commissioner says that the Somalia
commission does not have the power to bypass the Access to
Information Act or the Privacy Act and the government cannot
bend the rules to meet commission concerns. Further, the
Minister of National Defence in his recent news release says that
all information requests will be processed according to the two
acts.
12372
(1445)
Given that national defence is notorious for its lack of respect
for processing access requests, can the Deputy Prime Minister
please explain what this policy will mean to all of us?
Hon. Sheila Copps (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister
of the Environment, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the policy, as the
member indicated, was self-explanatory in the news release
issued by the Department of National Defence on Friday last
which states: ``All access to information requests will continue
to be processed in accordance with the Access to Information
Act and the Privacy Act''. That coincides with the opinion
expressed by Mr. Grace.
Mr. Bob Ringma (Nanaimo-Cowichan, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the information commissioner also says that the access
act is a law of Parliament and you cannot just opt out of it
because you find it inconvenient.
Will the Deputy Prime Minister assure the House, because we
are sincerely worried about this, that requests will not be denied
just because it is a matter of inconvenience or the commission
says so?
Hon. Sheila Copps (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister
of the Environment, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I think the news
release issued by the Department of National Defence makes it
very clear that in fact according to the law, all access to
information requests will continue to be processed in
accordance with the Access to Information Act and the Privacy
Act. I do not think the department could make it any clearer.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is directed to the Minister of Health.
On December 8, 1994, in response to questions from the
official opposition about the conflict of interest created by Mr.
Ritter's position with the Bureau of Veterinary Drugs at Health
Canada, and his activities as a lobbyist for pharmaceutical
companies seeking approval of the growth hormone, bovine
somatotropin, the Minister of Health told us she would make
inquiries and give us a report.
Could the minister indicate whether upon investigation, Mr.
Ritter's conduct was found to be in accordance with the
government's conflict of interest guidelines and could she table
in the House the report prepared by her department?
Hon. Diane Marleau (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we announced Health Canada's position with respect to
Mr. Ritter. I have nothing to add at this point.
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
minister's answer is not really satisfactory. I asked if inquiries
had been made and if the report was ready, because on
December 8, 1994, she said in the House that she would make
inquiries and give us a report.
Does the minister intend to take steps to ensure that there are
no recurrences of unacceptable situations like this one at Health
Canada?
Hon. Diane Marleau (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, as I said just now, I asked the deputy minister to make
inquiries. She did so. We made an announcement, and at this
point, we have nothing to add. I have nothing more to say.
* * *
[
English]
Mr. Randy White (Fraser Valley West, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the minister of public works.
After cancelling the lease on a 37 square metre office in St.
John's used primarily by the minister of fisheries, the
government entered a five year deal on 348 square metres with a
great view of the narrows.
Since the minister of public works has seen fit to spend
$87,000 a year on these swanky new digs on top of $170,000 to
renovate them to Liberal standards and over $46,000 to lavishly
furnish them, could he tell the House whether the minister of
fisheries who will be the primary occupant of these new suites
had any input of any kind into the decision to move to these new
offices?
Hon. David Dingwall (Minister of Public Works and
Government Services and Minister for the Atlantic Canada
Opportunities Agency, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon.
member for his question. The answer is no.
Mr. Randy White (Fraser Valley West, Ref.): At least I got
something out of the minister in the last couple of weeks. No is
better than nothing at all.
On April 25 the secretary of state for fisheries stated in this
House: ``The St. John's offices were moved to another building
according to standard procedure which requires a call for
tenders''.
(1450 )
My question is for the secretary of state for fisheries. Since
the Evening Telegram in St. John's now reports it indeed was not
tendered, why did he indicate to the House that it was tendered?
Which version of the truth is the truth?
Hon. David Dingwall (Minister of Public Works and
Government Services and Minister for the Atlantic Canada
Opportunities Agency, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I do not have all the
details available about which the hon. member has asked.
I want to inform the House that the government embarked
upon a policy of closing down a good number of ministerial
12373
regional offices across the country. In fact, 11 MROs have been
closed at a saving of some $3.5 million to the taxpayers.
The facility in Newfoundland will not only be utilized by the
minister responsible for fisheries and oceans, but will also be
utilized by all ministers of the crown. It will be utilized by
various ministers of state as well as other government
representatives who are doing business in a province in which
we believe it is very important that we get some economic
activity taking place.
* * *
Mrs. Bonnie Hickey (St. John's East, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the secretary of state for fisheries and oceans.
On April 28, 1995 while Canadian fishery officers were
conducting a NAFO inspection on the Spanish vessel Mayi
Cuatro, the vessel dropped its net. The net has been recovered
and both Canadian and EU inspectors confirm that the net
contained an illegal liner.
Can the secretary of state tell Newfoundlanders and all
Canadians what further action the government is taking to stop
this kind of violation of NAFO regulations?
[Translation]
Hon. Fernand Robichaud (Secretary of State (Agriculture
and Agri-Food, Fisheries and Oceans), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
would like to thank my colleague for her incessant interest in
fisheries.
[English]
On April 28 Canadian officers issued a NAFO citation to the
master of the Mayi Cuatro. On May 8 EU inspectors boarded the
Mayi Cuatro and sealed the fish hold. We have received word
that the Spanish vessel has been ordered to cease its fishing
activity and return immediately to Spain. These are very
positive developments which indicate a clear willingness by the
EU to take immediate and decisive action to meet the terms of
the Canada-EU agreement.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Michel Guimond
(Beauport-Montmorency-Orléans, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of the Environment.
In September 1994, at the 12th conference of the International
Maritime Pilots' Association in Vancouver, the Minister of the
Environment said the following:
[English]
``I am happy that IMPA is constantly striving to optimize the
latest aids to navigation, thus improving safety. Even the most
modern equipment will not replace the human element, but will
add to the tools available to the pilot''.
[Translation]
Since the Standing Committee on Transport recommends
substantially reducing the requirements for pilotage in Canadian
waters, does the minister intend to convince her colleague at
Transport to reject the committee's recommendations, which
increase considerably the risks of an environmental catastrophe
like that created by the Exxon Valdez?
Hon. Douglas Young (Minister of Transport, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, obviously, the government will examine the
recommendations of the Standing Committee on Transport and I
hope that we will get some suggestions from the people we will
be consulting with across Canada during the process which has
already begun in the east.
It is regrettable that the hon. member who raised the question
today did not seize the opportunity to propose suggestions
which could have been of interest to the committee. He
preferred instead to raise questions of the kind we just heard,
which do not really help to resolve the problems with pilotage on
the St. Lawrence and elsewhere.
Mr. Michel Guimond
(Beauport-Montmorency-Orléans, BQ): Mr. Speaker, is
the Minister of Transport aware, does he realize that a reduction
in pilotage activities will cause a directly proportional increase
in the risk of maritime accidents or ecological disasters?
(1455)
[English]
Hon. Douglas Young (Minister of Transport, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the whole question of pilotage, the St. Lawrence
authority as well as any other pilotage authority operating in the
country is subject to change. The transport committee, which
looked at the question, has made some recommendations. We
are going to continue to study it and we look forward to
recommendations from the hon. member.
One thing we have insisted on throughout this review of the
responsibilities of Transport Canada is that we will continue to
exercise our fiduciary responsibility for safety and security.
That includes how we deal with pilotage authorities.
* * *
Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay West-Revelstoke, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, in mid-April the Minister of Transport pledged not one
cent of federal money would go into the expansion of the port of
Belledune in New Brunswick. Now we find out that in addition
to the colossal $20 million loan, the expansion project will also
12374
receive an outright grant of $6 million including a grant of $1.5
million from the Ministry of Transport itself. This expansion
comes at a time when the New Brunswick ports of Miramichi,
Bathurst and Dalhousie are on the verge of closing down due to
overcapacity in east coast ports.
Given that no private sector investors have been found for the
Belledune project and other ports in New Brunswick are capable
of handling the expanded capacity being planned, why has the
minister had this sudden $6 million change of heart? Where are
the so-called sound business decisions he says are so evident?
Hon. Douglas Young (Minister of Transport, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the question put by the hon. member is riddled with
misstatements. On the basis of what he has said, he does not
even understand what is happening at Belledune.
One thing he did say is that the port of Bathurst, one that he
says will be affected, is in my constituency. We are aware of the
need to rationalize ports.
The port of Belledune has participation from the province of
New Brunswick and the municipalities surrounding the port of
Belledune. We believe it is a step in the right direction.
I ask the hon. member to point to other examples anywhere in
Canada where municipalities, provincial governments, the
private sector and the federal government are prepared to spend
money on port expansion.
Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay West-Revelstoke, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, it is very convenient when the federal government says
to spend money on this or get nothing at all in what it decides.
The minority report produced by the Reform Party on federal
port reform makes it very clear that subsidies are not the way to
go in the port industry. They only end up causing excessive
dependence on the public purse when the people of Atlantic
Canada are really looking for economic self-sufficiency.
Will the minister explain to the House how Atlantic Canada
will ever reach economic self-sufficiency if the government
continues to fund unviable ports like Belledune so that it can
compete for the revenues of the viable ports?
Hon. Douglas Young (Minister of Transport, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member has a very odd way of approaching
this. He has mentioned the port of Chatham, the port of
Dalhousie, the port of Bathurst, the port of Belledune. He
probably knows there are a few other ports in New Brunswick.
What we have said as a policy is that in New Brunswick there
will be two ports, the major port at Saint John which is a very
important international port and a port at Belledune that was
built in the late 1950s and early 1960s to handle Brunswick
Mines which happen to be there. It is there because NB Power
has a thermal generating plant that happened to be built at
Belledune.
If the hon. member had thought about what he was saying, he
would understand that rather than have a half a dozen ports that
need subsidies of all kinds to continue to operate, we will wind
up in New Brunswick with two viable ports, one at Saint John
and one at Belledune.
* * *
Hon. Audrey McLaughlin (Yukon, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Transport.
Last week the Minister of Transport called some of his
department's plans to automate and privatize air navigation
systems a mess. I agree with the minister.
There are increasing concerns about the automated weather
system, the number of layoffs in 26 airports, emergency fire
response, and the Transport Canada project to install automated
aircraft and control systems over budget. Surely in the interests
of public safety the minister should respond to the airlines, the
pilots, the consumers and call an independent public inquiry in
his government's policy to privatize and automate air navigation
systems.
Hon. Douglas Young (Minister of Transport, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, again the Reform and the NDP must be drinking from
the same cup of coffee.
The problem with CAATS which was raised by my hon. friend
last week with respect to the overspending is as a result of the
system that is in place now. The problem with AWOS is as a
result of the system that is in now place.
If there ever was justification to go to the commercialization
of the air navigation system where there are the deliverers of the
service, the users of the service, and the people who pay for the
service sitting at the table as the operators of ANS, the question
that was just asked by the hon. member is the best rationale for
all of that to be done.
(1500)
Hon. Audrey McLaughlin (Yukon, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my
supplementary question is for the Minister of Transport.
The minister will agree there is grave concern about the
AWOS. He will know there are two investigations now of
crashes where the AWOS is implicated. His department is going
ahead with the AWOS. I have been to briefings by Transport
Canada on this system. It is unproven technology.
It is time for an independent, public inquiry into this
automation system and its commercialization. Will he not do it?
12375
Hon. Douglas Young (Minister of Transport, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I agree with the hon. member that the AWOS has a
number of flaws in it. We have recognized that and have taken
steps to correct it. We are responding to the concerns she has
expressed on behalf of the industry.
However, AWOs was designed in the current environment.
CAATS was designed in the current environment. There are
problems with both of those systems but she does not want us to
change the system. She wants us to continue a system that has
produced these kinds of problems. It does not make any sense.
* * *
Mr. Geoff Regan (Halifax West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the parliamentary secretary to the minister of
defence.
It was recently reported that two members of the
Maisonneuve Regiment in Montreal were associating with racist
organizations. Can the parliamentary secretary tell the House
what is being done about racism in the armed forces? What is the
minister doing to prevent racists from joining?
Mr. Fred Mifflin (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for a timely question.
I want to inform him and the House there are three things with
respect to existing members. First, following the events in
Somalia, procedures were implemented that strictly indicated a
zero tolerance toward racism in the Canadian forces.
Second, the chief of the defence staff issued to all units in
August 1993 a policy to that effect.
Third, the existing commanders have been directed by the
chief of the defence staff to complement their present training
systems with sensitized training in the area of anti-racism.
With respect to those joining, new procedures have been
implemented in which all recruiting units are required to read
the policy to new enrollees and make sure they understand them.
If they do not agree they are not allowed to join the Canadian
forces.
* * *
The Speaker: I wish to draw to members' attention the
presence in the gallery of the Hon. Doug Phillips, Minister of
Justice, Yukon Territory.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
[Translation]
Mr. Louis Plamondon (Richelieu, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it
seems that when I finished my question, there was a breach of
decorum in this House when the hon. member for
Bonaventure-Îles-de-la-Madeleine shouted ``traitor''. This
was heard at the Table and by several members.
I would ask you to refer to the Table to confirm whether that
was indeed the case and to ask the hon. member immediately to
make amends for this breach of decorum, because this use of the
word ``traitor'' reflects on the legitimacy of my right to sit in
this House.
The Speaker: My dear colleague, I myself did not hear the
term used. The hon. member in question is here in the House,
and I will give him the floor.
Mr. Patrick Gagnon (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor
General, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, yes, the debate in Quebec is
getting under way, and it is true we have been hearing all kinds
of comments from the opposition these last few months about
federalist forces, Liberals, and members lawfully elected in
Quebec.
I admit I did use the term, but not in speaking to the hon.
member. I agree that in the heat of debate, people say certain
things. I certainly do apologize for using this term here in the
House.
The Speaker: I accept your apologies on behalf of the House
of Commons.
I believe there is another point of order. The government
whip.
[English]
Mr. Don Boudria (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I call again to the Speaker's attention an issue that
occurred today as well as one day last week in the House of
Commons. It is the rule or the citation of Beauchesne's and the
customs of this House with regard to anticipating orders of the
day.
(1505)
Mr. Speaker, you will know that under the heading ``Oral
Questions'' in Beauchesne's 6th edition, citation 410 states:
In 1986 the Speaker put forth further views in light of more recent conditions
and precedents.
This was with regard to what could and could not be asked in
question period. I refer to paragraph (14) of citation 410 which
states:
Questions should not anticipate an Order of the Day although this does not
apply to the budget process.
12376
When members refer to bills that are before the House, unless
those bills are part of the budget process, they should not be
raised at question period if they are the subject of the debate that
day in the House.
Not only are we talking about an issue which is listed on
today's Projected Order of Business as being before the House,
we are in fact talking about a bill that was the subject of
discussion in the House only 15 or 20 minutes before it was
raised by the hon. leader of the Reform Party.
Therefore, it is my submission that not only would it be a
breach if members raised something which is on today's
Projected Order of Business, but it is even more true when the
debate was the subject immediately prior to question period and
the House is reasonably aware that it will be the debate before
the House immediately after question period.
Therefore, I submit that this kind of question is out of order. I
ask the Chair to rule it that way in the future.
I also want to ask the Speaker about the rule of anticipation
generally. Citation 512 of Beauchesne's states:
(2) The rule against anticipation is that a matter must not be anticipated if it is
contained in a more effective form of proceeding than the proceeding by which
it is sought to be anticipated, but it may be anticipated if it is contained in an
equally or less effective form.
This is in reference to a 1936 application of that rule which
basically states that if there is a more effective method of raising
something it should not then be anticipated in this way.
I want to conclude by suggesting respectfully to the Chair that
when a subject is discussed in debate immediately prior and
immediately after question period, to raise it during question
period under the pretence that it is not anticipating an Order of
the Day is a flagrant abuse of the customs and traditions of the
House.
Mr. Elwin Hermanson (Kindersley-Lloydminster, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, this matter came up a couple of days ago and we
responded to the allegation at that time. The question was very
broadly based. It did not deal specifically with the legislation.
Today it was obvious that the leader of the Reform Party was
addressing his question to the minister responsible for the
Treasury Board in relation to how he justified this on the one
hand versus what he was doing with the civil service and general
belt tightening on the other hand.
Therefore, it was a very broadly based question purposely
crafted so it would not be in conflict with the standing orders.
Mr. Speaker, I ask you to rule in that respect.
Mr. Peter Milliken (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of
the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the submissions made by the hon. member for
Kindersley-Lloydminster only bolster the point made by the
chief government whip. The three questions we are saying were
out of order were directed to the minister responsible for the bill
that is being debated in the House all day today.
Therefore, for the hon. member to suggest that by somehow
asking the President of the Treasury Board about his own bill the
question is in order is utter rubbish. Those questions were out of
order. It was as plain as plain could be.
(1510 )
I invite Your Honour when future questions arise concerning
matters that are before the House for discussion on Orders of the
Day to apply the strictures contained in Beauchesne, citations
409 and 410, both of which I quoted to the House in my remarks
last Thursday when the member for Beaver River did precisely
the same thing.
The citations in Beauchesne are intended to be mandatory
guidelines directed to the order of question period. If the
guidelines contained in Beauchesne are not going to be enforced
and accepted by members, then the only solution is to change the
standing orders of the House to put mandatory guidelines in
them that then will be enforced.
I do not prefer that option and I am sure you do not, Mr.
Speaker. There are times when we do not need to have hard and
fast rules, when it is better to have guidelines which these are.
They are guidelines. Consistent breaching of guidelines by
using question period to further the debate on government
legislation is improper. It has been condemned by Beauchesne.
It is against the guideline in Beauchesne. It has been condemned
by previous committees that have helped establish these
guidelines in consultation with the Speaker.
In my submission the hon. member for Calgary Southwest
should be embarrassed that he asked those questions today. I
invite Your Honour in future to rule such questions out of order.
Mr. Jim Silye (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is on
the same point of order.
The matter that was raised in question period is about an issue
that is very topical. The subject matter is of great interest to all
Canadians. No reference was made to any specific issue that is
being debated in the House. We cleared this matter with the
people we are supposed to clear these matters with to get proper
guidance and proper assurance that we are following the
procedures.
This is nothing more than two bookworms whining and
complaining about this issue.
Miss Deborah Grey (Beaver River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I just
want to say briefly that after I heard these interventions, it would
seem to me that they are not being critical of my leader or
12377
anyone who raised this question, but in fact they are calling your
judgment into question. I think that is reprehensible.
The Speaker: The Chair takes no offence when points of
order are raised in the House. I like to get advice from both sides
so that we can see what is the lay of the land.
As to the remark from the hon. member for Beaver River, with
all respect to her, I want her to know that I take no offence at
these points of order being raised.
When this was raised last week I mentioned to hon. members
that sometimes we are skirting the rules very closely. At that
time I asked all hon. members give enough latitude to the Chair
so we could have the normal give and take that occurs in
question period.
It is true when we are debating a certain bill, I as your Speaker
listen very closely both to the questions and to the answers. I
have to wait until a question is asked to know whether I am going
to make a ruling on it being in order or out of order.
I asked hon. members last week to please give your Speaker
enough latitude to be able to conduct these question and answer
periods for the benefit of the House. I thank both members of the
government party for their interventions and all three
interveners for the Reform Party. What sets questions up, and
you know this and I know it, is the preamble. I have given all
latitude to members asking questions and even in the responses I
have allowed ministers and responders-
(1515)
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Please colleagues, I am trying to explain this
for all of us. I give as much latitude as I can so that we can get at
the facts, whatever they are.
If in my opinion a matter does not refer directly to the bill, if I
feel it is in a general enough area, I will permit the question. I
caution all hon. members that when we are crafting our
questions it is incumbent that, if I might say with all respect, the
Chair should be reasonably comfortable that the question is
indeed in order. The more your Speaker is pushed to the line, the
more likely he is to intervene on the questions.
I appeal to all hon. members in the crafting of the questions to
please, if we have a bill being debated on that day, to consider
that the questions be general enough in nature, which I judged
them to be today, so that the questions can be asked. If you push
your Speaker too close to the line, then of course I will
intervene, as I have in the past.
All that to say that the points are well taken on this side. The
points are well founded. The points made on the other side are
equally good in the sense that they give a balance to the Chair as
to where we are going. With your continued support I will see to
it that the question period is conducted in a civilized manner
with respect on both sides and all members are carrying out their
responsibilities in the way they should.
Miss Deborah Grey (Beaver River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, this
just arose while we were listening.
The whip hollered across: ``You should be ashamed, but then
again you probably do not know shame''. I ask him to withdraw
that. Perhaps that would help clean up the level of debate. He
said it, he knows it. Perhaps you could ask him to withdraw it.
The Speaker: Colleagues, I did not hear that.
Mr. Don Boudria (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I will gladly admit to saying it and I will withdraw
it, but it is not out of order.
The Speaker: We have a withdrawal. Remember, tomorrow is
Wednesday.
_____________________________________________
12377
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[
English]
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill
C-85, an act to amend the Members of Parliament Retiring
Allowances Act and to provide for the continuation of a certain
provision, be read the second time and referred to a committee;
and on the motion that the question be now put.
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member has six minutes
remaining in his intervention.
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I will reflect
on the position I took in my town hall meetings. I signed a
document in front of my constituents saying that I would not
accept the current MP pension. Those witnesses signed as well. I
found that to be a different way to handle this issue rather than a
tired old promise about the MP pension plan.
I was lucky enough, and some would not consider it so, to be
elected to this position. I went to the department of supply and
services my very first day here and said that I did not want to
take part in the MP pension plan. I told the young man that I had
made a promise to my constituents. The MP pension plan was
not fair and I wanted to withdraw from it. He told me I was crazy,
that it was a lot of loot. I agreed that it was a lot of loot, but asked
how I could withdraw. He told me I could not withdraw. I did not
want to participate so I asked him what I should do. He said that
the money would be taken from me, but I could sign a document
saying that I would not participate in the MP pension plan.
12378
(1520)
That is what I did. I wrote down that I did not wish to accept
the MP pension plan and asked that the contribution not be taken
off my paycheque. The young fellow told me that I was the first
MP in Canadian history to withdraw from the MP pension plan.
I reflected on his comment that I was crazy, that it was a lot of
loot. Why would a sensible person in my position withdraw from
the MP pension plan? Am I a bit loony? Am I independently
wealthy? Can I say this is insignificant to me?
In my lifetime I have raised seven children on one income. In
25 years of practice in medicine I have saved $80,000 toward my
retirement by putting money into RRSPs. That money is the only
money I will draw when I retire. I need a pension.
I asked my constituents: Do you think that an MP should get a
pension? Universally they said you bet, but all it needs is to be
fair. When I asked what they considered to be fair, they simply
said: ``You put up a buck and we will put up a buck. It goes in the
pot and when the pot is empty you are done''. That is what
Reformers are asking for.
I ask my Liberal colleagues in their caucus meetings to think
about the discussion which took place on this issue. New
members of Parliament faced people on their doorsteps as I did.
There are 100 brand new Liberals who know they are wrong on
the MP pension issue.
This is not a partisan issue. It is an issue that reflects integrity.
Why has government lost integrity? I have gone over statements
that were made over the last 15 years, back to 1976, concerning
the budget. ``Now that the recovery is well established and
private spending is rising, it is equally appropriate these record
deficits should recede''. That was a statement by Donald
Macdonald.
Michael Wilson: ``When the government came to office we
encountered a debt problem of massive proportions. The buck
was passed to us. Well, the buck stops here''. On we go to Don
Mazankowski: ``We will substantially reduce the deficit''. All
the while the deficit was climbing, going to the ceiling. Finally,
we get to the government of today which says exactly the same
thing.
Is there integrity in these Chambers? We are told that MPs
will be eligible for pension at age 55. I got my calculator out and
calculated the average age of MPs in the House. It is 49.4 years.
Think of it. We will not have to wait long.
I went home and asked the people in my riding, the butcher in
Pincher Creek, the pharmacist in Blairmore, the grain farmer in
Vulcan, the housewife in Fort Macleod, the retired doctor in
Claresholm, the stockman in Nanton, the nurse in High River,
the barber in Okotoks, the teacher in Bragg Creek, the elder on
the Siksika Nation: What do you think of the newly reformed
pension plan. They replied this pension plan is wrong.
I started my intervention today by saying I wanted to thank the
Liberals opposite, and I do. I want to thank them for giving me
the opportunity of telling my constituents that if I choose, I can
run in Macleod for the rest of my days on this issue alone. I have
been given the platform that tells people there is integrity in
some parts of the House of Commons.
As I did for the pension plan when I arrived, I will be
withdrawing my name from this pension plan, as will my
colleagues. I wish to say loudly and clearly to the House that I
would like a fair pension. I would like to be able to look my
constituents in the eye and say: ``You put up a dollar for me and I
will put up a dollar which will go toward my retirement''. That is
fair, that is just, that is equitable, that is proper. I will not take
this pension plan.
(1525)
In every forum, think of it for the next election. Line up the
candidates and ask whether they will take the MP pension plan.
As was said when I campaigned: ``Oh, no''. There is a group who
will not take this pension plan but will reform it. How will they
reform it? With 100 more Reformers here, a transmission across
the floor and then the MP pension plan will be reformed and
reformed properly.
Once again, thanks to Liberal strategists, thanks to senior
cabinet ministers, thanks to the class of '88, thanks to all those
who did not listen to the new Liberals, thanks to the old time
politicians and thanks to the Bloc for making Reformers the only
individuals in this Parliament with integrity on this issue. Thank
you very much.
Mr. Vic Althouse (Mackenzie, NDP): Mr. Speaker, on
questions and comments, I share something in common with the
previous speaker. Having served more than 15 years in this
House, the legislation before us does not affect me either. It does
not affect him because he has not earned a pension. It does not
affect me because I have already earned one and this law is not
retroactive and does not take away property and contributions
we have already acquired.
I note with some interest that his constituents have told him
they will accept a pension plan where the government adds one
dollar, as the employer I suppose, to every dollar that MPs put
into the pension plan. I have done some of the calculations.
In my own case over 15 years, had the government
contributed dollar for dollar to my contributions and had we
been able to earn the kind of interest that is available through
RRSPs, the accumulated value of those funds at 8 per cent would
have been more than enough for me to have taken the equivalent
to what I
12379
am going to be getting if and when I retire at the maximum
amount forever. When I died my estate would still get the bulk of
the money.
That is with the kind of contributions that were made in the
past 15 or 16 years. The only difference is that the government
has not been contributing one dollar each year. Its contributions
have had to come willy-nilly whenever the fund runs dry.
The other factor that most of the public and certainly my
friends in the Reform Party seem to be missing is that the
program we were all forced into when we became members a
long time ago pays for the use of the funds that we have
contributed. They go essentially to the government to use and
spend as it chooses. At the end of each year, it allocates 4 per
cent simple interest for the use of those funds. The funds have
not been earning market rates of interest. Our pension
deductions have been used to subsidize the operation of
government.
Miss Grey: We have to pay tax on the 7 per cent.
Mr. Althouse: Yes and when we start to collect pension
afterward, anyone who collects the pension will be paying tax on
it as the money comes back. When we pay into the RRSP we do
not pay taxes either and that is the other option available.
I understand from the hon. member who just spoke that his
constituents told him they would accept a pension where the
member puts in a dollar which is matched by the government
and is treated like an RRSP. The point I am making to the House
is had that option been open to older members such as myself
when we came here, we would have such a large fund
accumulated that we could take money out at 8 per cent and we
would be taking a larger pension than we will now be getting
under this fund.
(1530 )
Our pension contributions have been used to subsidize the
operations of government, and I think it is not unfair for
government in those few cases, when those members retire, to
make up for the fact that it got very cheap money at 4 per cent
simple interest over all those years of contribution.
I think we are saying virtually the same thing. I am in
agreement with the constituents my hon. friend just mentioned.
Had we had that option open to us, those of us who have served
15 or more years would have had a bigger pool of money than
using the current fund. The proposition he is offering is actually
a richer form of supplementing people who have served in the
House of Commons than the old system, and there is leftover
money in the fund, which becomes the property of the retired
member and becomes the property of his heirs and successors
after him.
I can understand the proposal that is being put forward by
members of the Reform Party. It is a very good proposal,
because it leaves long-term members more money and it leaves
a fund for their heirs and successors, which the current fund does
not.
The Deputy Speaker: I believe that the hon. member for
Mackenzie said he was rising on questions and comments. If he
did, that would indicate that he thought we were in 20-minute
speeches. In fact we are in 10-minute speeches, so the House
will treat his questions or comments as being an intervention.
Mr. Jake E. Hoeppner (Lisgar-Marquette, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, being a farmer, I always say that a bin of grain is a bin
of grain. When I see a pension of $5 million, it is $5 million. It
amazes me: one member says that if we only put in a dollar we
get it and another member says that if we put in five or six we
will get that. What mathematics are correct?
I have known a lot of business people and I have known a lot
of farmers, and for some reason I have not been able to find
those guys with $5 million pensions. Where are they hiding?
It is a pleasure to address this bill. I also like to remind the
members across the way that during the election campaign one
of the main issues was that of MP pensions. Canadians clearly
voiced their opposition to overly generous pensions. They were
seen as yet another example of the greed and the self-serving
interests of the government of the day. We heard so much about
Mr. Beatty's pension during that time, and a few others, and the
Liberals kept reminding us of those pensions. Now they have all
of a sudden forgotten about that. Maybe we need another
election.
Even when the Liberals realized that their pensions were
glorified, they kept harping on them. It reminds me a little of a
Fordson Major tractor: when you had to start that thing you had
to really turn the crank, because if it was turned halfway it would
backfire and break your arm. I think it held the record for broken
arms.
When I looked at the recent Manitoba election, there were at
least two broken arms on every Liberal. It was the gun
registration and the pension plan that left them with a little
toehold of Liberal policy in Manitoba. I would like to emphasize
that they should remember that taxpayers do have a vote. So far
we still have that opportunity.
The bill establishes a minimum age of 55 for eligibility and it
eliminates double dipping. Hurray. That is what we wanted.
That is a good point, but it does not do the whole job. While the
age limit has been increased, the interest on this well funded
plan keeps multiplying. When I look at the calculations, I think
it is something like a 10 per cent decrease if it is calculated out
to the final end.
12380
(1535 )
When I look at some of the people and the cuts they have
taken, especially in western Canada, when I look at the WGTA
and some of these things, 10 per cent is minimum. I do not know
how I am supposed to convince my farmer friends, when 48 per
cent of their income is coming from off farm jobs, that we
politicians need a $5 million pension. That disturbs me, really.
I heard the previous speaker admonish us to be reasonable and
to address issues the way they should be addressed. We keep
badgering each other about this pension plan and will not do
anything about it. That bothers me.
A 10 per cent cut over all the time that we debated this issue is
not enough. When I look at the problems we have in the farm
community, when I look at the problems we have in the
undernourished children in our schools and certain places, how
can I justify this?
It is up to us MPs to finally buckle down and make some
decisions. I was very impressed with the students we have had
over the last couple of weeks under the forum for young
Canadians and how well informed these people are, how they
have started looking at the issues of the day. I was impressed by
one of the students when she said: ``Mr. Hoeppner, we are
prepared to take the cuts. We are prepared to take a lower
standard of living if you somehow give us the opportunity to get
our feet on the ground to do it.''
If I look at the situation today, if we do not make those tough
decisions and bring that deficit down to zero, these students will
not have the opportunity to do what they know they should be
doing. It is up to us to give these students that opportunity. If we
do not, history will record us as those MPs who did not have the
willpower, who did not take the opportunity they had to pass on
the torch to future generations so that they could at least do what
has to be done.
When I look at the past 25 years of government operations and
see $550 billion passed onto the backs of future generations, I
am sick when I even think of this pension plan. It is disgusting
that we have to debate it even, that we cannot take the necessary
steps to make it honest and to make it accountable. If we do not,
we will be held accountable. We cannot pass that blame on to
anybody else. It is imperative that we make this decision, that
we do not pass on criticism continually.
When I heard the hon. member the other day mentioning that
we as Reformers were now brainwashing teachers and that
students were writing him letters about this gold plated pension
plan, I said maybe there is hope. I will take that responsibility
for having that effect, if we are creating it. It is a must. It is a
must not because we want to be put on a level playing field, but it
is a must that we preserve this country. This country is too great
to let it hit the wall. I have seen countries that have done it, and I
do not want to have the consequences.
When I look today at the Mexican situation, it looked so
bright just a year ago and then all of a sudden, because of a few
bad political mistakes, boom, it hit the wall. What is happening
today? When one looks at Chiapas today, its people are getting
restless. I hate to think even of what would happen if they start
revolting.
I again urge members in the House to make the decision. Let
us not fool around. Let us not badger each other. We know that
$5 million for a pension plan is too much today.
(1540)
In the future, some day when we get the country back to the
prosperity it should have, maybe it is attainable. Let the future
generations do it because they will have to cope with $5.5 billion
of debt, which they had absolutely nothing to do with.
We should give them that opportunity to use their expertise, to
use their enthusiasm, and not try to squash that. If we as
members in this House do not react to their request, we are going
to be recorded in history as being the ones who squashed their
incentive, their initiative. I think we deserve to do that much in
the House.
Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to rise to speak on the motion before us today to move
this bill one further step along the way.
The hon. government whip this morning called for the
question to be put in order to move this bill on to committee. I
think that is a wonderful idea. When this bill goes to committee,
we will be calling witnesses to find out what they think of this
bill. If we are to call in interested people regarding this bill,
every taxpayer in the country deserves to be heard with their
opinion on this bill. Bring them in, bring them all in.
The Reform Party would be quite willing in this particular
situation to approve a travel budget for this committee to go
right across the country to find out what taxpayers think of this
bill. All taxpayers have an interest in this bill, not just the ones
around here, not the special interest groups we normally hear
from, but the taxpayers, each and every one of them, those who
have to squeak by and eke out a meagre income and yet pay taxes
for us, as well the rich and the famous who do not mind paying
their taxes, but even the small individual Canadians who have to
be squeezed by Revenue Canada to get that last nickel out of
them.
We have heard how the Minister of National Revenue has said
that they are going to be aggressive to ensure that tax collection
policies collect the taxes owing. We expect these people to pay
the taxes while we sit in the lap of luxury for the rest of lives.
These are the people we should be hearing from. They want to be
heard.
12381
That is why I think this committee should travel right across
the country and stop at every little town, village, and city along
the way to find out if there is a consensus for the government's
policies it has brought in on this particular bill, if there is a
consensus in the country to support what it is trying to do. I very
much doubt it. I do not think there is any consensus whatsoever.
In fact if there is any consensus it is in total and absolute
opposition to this bill introduced by the government.
I think the motion today is quite appropriate, that we move on
to the committee stage. Let Canadians speak. Let them be heard.
We have talked for days in this House on this particular subject.
There has been acrimony and animosity. Let us find out what
Canadians, the rank and file, really think about this subject. I am
quite sure that they support the Reform Party's position, which
is if you want a pension let it be reasonable.
According to the Deputy Prime Minister, we have made such
great sacrifices. I said before, show me one person in the House
who has been dragged in here kicking and screaming to serve. I
do not think there is one, not one. Therefore there is no sacrifice.
Everyone who sits in this House is here because they want to be
in the House. That is the reality of it all. It is not the idea that we
have served so much and we have given so much that we are
entitled to live in the lap of luxury at the taxpayer's expense for
the rest of our lives. That is not defensible in this day and age.
The previous speaker talked about how he would not want this
wonderful country to hit the wall. Neither would I. We all know
that is a possibility.
(1545)
We are standing here today debating a bill that will make
legislators rich for the rest of their lives. A few weeks ago we
debated a budget and looked at the very real consequences and
possibilities of the country hitting the wall. Future generations
will ask: ``Where were they when we hit the wall?'' I will tell the
House where we are. We are debating how we can keep ourselves
rich.
An hon. member: How we can protect ourselves.
Mr. Williams: How we can protect ourselves so that
everybody else who has no say in the House except through us
will have to depend on the decisions made in the House.
The economy will rise or fall based on the decisions made in
the House. We will or will not hit the wall based on the decisions
made in the House, but we will look after ourselves. We will be
all right, Jack. They will point the finger at us and say: ``We
elected you to run the country on our behalf. We wanted
responsible government. We wanted honest government. We
wanted a government that would provide jobs for us, education
for us and a future for our children''. That is why we are here.
What have we done? We brought in Bill C-85 that will let us be
rich for the rest of our lives.
This brings to mind a famous French queen who said: ``Let
them eat cake''. We will be eating cake while we expect
everybody else to get out there to try to find a job that will pay
them an income so that one bread winner can go out to work and
the other spouse can stay at home to raise a family. We do not
even see that in Canadian any more. Jobs of that kind are few and
far between. Yet there are MPs in the House who expect to retire
in the lap of luxury and without having to work. Prior to the
introduction of the bill there was one member who would have
received $70,000-odd a year. I believe that continues to apply in
some cases.
At age 55, without having to work, they will be able to live the
rest of their lives in the lap of luxury without having to produce a
single thing while Canadians will have to work hard, slave hard,
do without and pay more taxes for us. I cannot justify it. I do not
think any one of my Reform colleagues could justify it. They
have spoken one after the other, saying they will not take the
pension.
I will not take the pension. I cannot go back to St. Albert,
stand before my constituents and say I will opt in, thank you
very much, I appreciate the money. When they are in my office
saying that they have no jobs, what am I supposed to say?
Mr. Hill (Prince George-Peace River): Let them eat cake.
Mr. Williams: No, I cannot say that because my
responsibility is to lead, to govern and to represent the people of
St. Albert. I do not think they sent me down here to vote for this
kind of largess for myself at their expense.
The last budget told us that 45,000 civil servants with families
and children would be laid off. Their careers have come to a full
stop. Some of them are young and perhaps can get started again.
Some are middle aged and some are looking at retirement not
that far away. They say: ``I had a career. I worked hard. I made
my contribution to the country. I have earned my salary. I have
made my pension contributions''. The pension they can expect
is a lot less than half of what we can expect. They made their
pension contributions and all of a sudden the curtain came down
and that was the end of it: ``Thank you very much. We do not
need you any more. You are out on the street and you can look for
a job''.
(1550 )
Where are the jobs? Where are they? Surely it is the
responsibility of the House to provide jobs and they are not
there. There will be 45,000 people with families on UI with their
self-esteem destroyed and with their careers in tatters and ruins,
and we are debating Bill C-85 to make ourselves rich.
12382
I have a very serious problem with Bill C-85. I have a very
serious problem with members of the government who stand to
say how greatly we have sacrificed and how much we have given
to the country. There are tens of thousands of unspoken,
unnamed Canadians out there who are giving every bit as much,
even more than we are.
The recognition they get is a Canada pension plan that perhaps
may not even have any money in it to provide any kind of
pension for them when they retire. We are now talking about
elevating the age from 65 to 67 while for ourselves it is 55.
Surely the double standard should cease. That is what we are
saying. The double standard between those who legislate and
those who are legislated has to cease. Why do we not start right
here with Bill C-85, have it withdrawn completely and bring it
back with a reasonable pension?
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is
very interesting to note that virtually the only people speaking to
the issue are the people from the Reform Party. It is particularly
interesting to note because a debate implies there are two sides:
the good side and the bad side or the up side and the down side.
In this case it is interesting that virtually none of the Liberal
members of Parliament are prepared to stand in an attempt to
defend this pension plan.
It is also instructive to take a look at what else is happening in
the country in legislatures. I think of the B.C. Liberal leader. I
will quickly read a news release that was put out under his name
on April 22:
B.C. Liberal Leader Gordon Campbell announced today that pensions for
Members of the Legislature will be eliminated under a B.C. Liberal government.
Campbell said it's time to put an end to the special pension and tax privileges
that have traditionally been given to MLAs in British Columbia. ``Elected
officials should be treated no differently than any other British Columbian when
it comes to receiving pension benefits from taxpayers. The MLA pension is not
appropriate for a job that is based on an elected term of five years''.
``Most people believe MLAs deserve fair and appropriate compensation. To
ensure that happens an independent commission should be established'', said
Campbell. ``There should be a single standard for all people of this province
with MLAs paying the same taxes and having the same choices as other British
Columbians''.
Under the current system an MLA can receive a monthly pension if the
member has served for seven years or more or has served in more than two
Legislative Assemblies. ``We don't want to penalize people for running for
public office but we also do not believe there should be special perks''.
This is interesting because Mr. Campbell is a Liberal. I have
always felt that a Liberal is a Liberal is a Liberal. He spoke of
the old style Liberal politicians that seem to inhabit this place.
Campbell said that old style politicians set up systems that have isolated them
from the realities that British Columbians face on a daily basis. ``That's why
B.C. Liberals say no special pensions and no special tax benefits for MLAs''.
I wonder what happens when members like the member for
Vancouver Quadra or the member for Vancouver Centre or the
member for Victoria, a cabinet minister, manage to get across
the mountains from British Columbia. Is there a change in the
water in Ottawa? Is there a change in the smog in Ottawa? What
is it that makes the difference for members who come from
Vancouver and Victoria, British Columbia? What happens when
they arrive in Ottawa that suddenly they seem to be in absolute
total contradiction to the leader of the B.C. Liberal Party or the
Leader of the Opposition.
(1555)
It is not just British Columbians who seem to have this gross
failure of understanding, some kind of a short circuit
somewhere. It would seem as though the Ontario Liberals,
currently seeking a mandate for their members of the provincial
Parliament, have seen the light. For some reason it seems to
completely elude the comprehension of the people who bear the
Liberal stripe and come to the House.
There is a major difference between the federal and Ontario
Liberal proposals. The difference is a defined contribution plan
versus a defined benefit plan. These people are calling for a
defined benefit plan so that the Canadian taxpayer will be on the
hook and continue to pay and pay and pay for members no matter
what happens. That is a defined benefit plan.
The Ontario Liberals are calling for a defined contribution
plan, which is precisely what the federal Reform Party is asking
for. We are simply saying that we should be going to a growing
industry standard, which is matching dollar for dollar. In a
defined benefit plan, if the employer and employee
contributions plus plan investment performance do not match
the promise made by the employer, the employer has an
unfunded pension liability.
That leads me to members who were in the House in a
previous Parliament. Some of them are currently in the House.
Politicians were telling Canadians that there was no problem,
that their porky pension plan was taken care of. Lo and behold, a
few years ago Canadians were suddenly told: ``Oops, we made a
small $110 million mistake. Isn't that too bad? We will make
sure we are properly funded. We will just take $110 million for
ourselves from general revenues''.
Although that was supposed to have resolved the situation, the
following year they had to take another number in the tens of
millions of dollars from the poor, hard working, overburdened,
much shackled taxpayer. This is absolutely unconscionable.
I ask again as I did at the start of my address why it is, if
federal Liberals are right and we are wrong, that we have
virtually zero participation by Liberal members of the House in
12383
the issue. Why is it that we have put up tens and tens of speakers
out of our 52, whereas they have only put up a handful on the
issue?
Mr. Hermanson: We are opting out and they are not.
Mr. Abbott: That could be. We are opting out and they are
not. Maybe that says something.
There has been a lot of talk about what is fair for an ordinary
Canadian to be able to come to the House of Commons. I think of
myself as a relatively ordinary Canadian with a mortgage and a
couple of used cars. I live off the salary I achieve through my
work in the House of Commons. I am not independently
wealthy. By opting out, the government has seen to it that I and
the rest of the Reform Party members who are to opt out in good
conscience will be personally severely disadvantaged
financially.
(1600)
It is punitive. All we are asking in very simple terms is a
defined contribution on the part of the employer, namely the
people of Canada, a matching of $1 for $1. Instead of that, the
government is saying: ``Either you come in and share the booty,
get in on this $3.50 contribution for every $1 that you put in and
become a millionaire at the expense of Canadian taxpayers or
you are out without anything. You get no matching funds. You
get no matching contribution''.
I find it exceptionally ironic that members opposite will
frequently speak up and say that we are taking some kind of
advantage, that we are trying to take some kind of political gain.
This is not a case of political gain. This has to do with a
commitment to the Canadian people on the part of Reform
politicians that we would listen to them in the same way that the
Liberal leader in the province of British Columbia and the
Liberal leader in the province of Ontario have clearly listened to
the people of their provinces.
Justice must be done in this case. Justice is the exposure of
this obscene plan that the Liberals are trying to perpetrate on the
people of Canada. Let us take a quick look at how they managed
to bring the legislation into the House.
A couple of Fridays ago there was the Progressive
Conservative wake in Hull. Knowing that some people would be
turning up at that thing, the Liberals chose that day to introduce
their legislation. It was a Friday afternoon. If the Liberals really
thought this legislation was worthwhile and would be accepted
by the Canadian people, why would they try to get it into the
House in the quietest possible manner when there might
possibly be a diversion across the river?
Mr. Hermanson: They are ashamed of it.
Mr. Abbott: That could be. Maybe they are ashamed of it.
Let us look at the events of last Thursday. We came to the
House to debate. Again, there are up sides and down sides. There
is good and there is bad. That is what debate is all about.
We rose to speak in the debate. One or two Liberals ended up
speaking rather sheepishly about it. Near the end of the day they
pulled a bit of a prank. They decided we would be able to debate
this all night long if we wanted to. They knew full well that what
they were doing-the people of Canada must understand
this-was getting the bill into and out of the House so fast it
would make a lightning bolt look slow. They wanted to slide the
bill through so quickly that there was no way that anybody
would see the blur going by.
It makes me think of the little mouse that I had under the seat
of my car one time. I could hear a little rustle when I was driving
along at night. When I stopped I would still hear the rustling
going on. I turned on the light and could see a little brown blur.
Then it would disappear.
That is what the Liberals were trying to do with this
legislation, get it out of the light of the parliamentary channel,
the light of this process so that Canadians would not realize that
once again the Liberals had done it to them.
Mr. Milliken: We are giving you all kinds of time to explain.
Mr. Abbott: I will explain it further to the people.
The Reform Party found a procedural way around it and the
whip really went rather ballistic on Thursday night. It was
something to see.
We are exposing the bill to the Canadian people. I for one
would vote for millions of dollars of travel so that the
parliamentary committee could take this bill around Canada and
expose it to Canadians. The government would then be able to
see what the people of Canada really think of this legislation.
(1605)
Mr. Lee Morrison (Swift Current-Maple
Creek-Assiniboia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I do not mind
admitting that on election night in October 1993 my family and I
were thrilled and proud that I would be coming to this place.
Now when strangers on aeroplanes ask me the inevitable
question: ``What do you do?'', I usually tell them, quite
truthfully, that I am a farmer and a retired engineer. I do not
ordinarily mention this aspect of my life unless the conversation
turns to politics.
It is not entirely because of the obscene pension plan which
we are debating today, although that is certainly a major part of
it. I have stated publicly on many occasions that I will never be a
party to this daylight robbery, so it is easy to dissociate myself
12384
from the unrestrained greed which is going to be allowed to
continue, with minor modifications, if Bill C-85 is passed in its
present form.
It is no great honour to participate in a charade. My colleagues
and I on both sides of the House know, and the public knows,
that what we say about Bill C-85 or any other bill is of little
consequence. A dozen or so people make the decisions and all of
the debate in the world will not change those decisions.
Whenever I hear an articulate and well researched speech in
this place I think: ``My God, what a waste''. If the argument had
been presented at a rural municipal council meeting where the
participants, working essentially without remuneration,
actually make decisions, the speech would have had great value.
I look around me and I see less than a dozen members. We are
outnumbered by the clerks, the stenographers, the translators
and the pages who make this place work. Where are the spear
carriers? Where is the chorus? They are not here because they
know that their presence is not required. Three times during
debate on this bill there have been quorum calls. The reason is
clear.
Hon. members on both sides of the House know that it does
not really matter what we do about it here or what we say about it
here. Even if government backbenchers and members of the
opposition were here in great numbers, the ministers, the people
who we might wish to influence, are almost never here except
for question period. Then we ask them questions which we know
will not be answered and the ministers do what is expected of
them: they do not answer. They and their parliamentary
secretaries respond like naughty children. The atmosphere of
this place rapidly degenerates to that of a zoo at feeding time. I
have to admit that I am as guilty as anyone.
Does the role of straight man or straight woman to the inner
cabinet really merit a pension worth anything from a few
hundred thousand to millions of dollars? I doubt it. Does it merit
a pension scheme four times richer than anything available in
the private sector? I doubt it.
The most objectionable features of Bill C-85 have been
thoroughly explored by my colleagues, but as far as I can recall
nobody has yet referred to the fact that the bill is silent on the
question of former members who are dipping into this particular
goody bag.
With the Speaker's indulgence I will read a couple of
paragraphs from a letter to the editor in last week's Western
Producer by Mr. Delon Bleakney of Turtleford, Saskatchewan.
It reads:
I think we should deal retroactively with the gold-plated pensions of the MPs
who voted for them for themselves while systematically bankrupting our
country over the last 25 years. Somewhere in our civil service there must be
some financial wizards capable of calculating the contributions (plus interest)
that our MPs, serving and retired, have made to their pensions.
The people of Canada might even be generous enough as employers to kick in
a percentage consistent with private plans.
When these calculations are complete, I suggest that we try to borrow enough
money to issue each of the ``troughees'' with a cheque. (The borrowing shouldn't
be hard, that is one thing they do excel at.) This cheque can be accompanied by an
explanation of the calculations and the advisement ``Here is your pension, you are
responsible for yourself henceforth''.
(1610)
In this country retroactive legislation to relieve governments
of contractual obligations or to impose financial obligations on
citizens is certainly nothing new. The only novelty of my
proposal is that it would be aimed at politicians instead of the
public.
Saskatchewan did it with the GRIP program. Alberta did it
years ago in order to tear up royalty agreements. This very
government did it with the helicopter deal and is now trying to
do it with the Pearson deal. Our very own Minister of Justice has
been very busy instituting retroactive regulations to confiscate
the property of Canadian gun owners without even going
through the motions of parliamentary democracy. There are
retroactive orders in council to deprive Canadians of their
lawfully required property.
Defence of the gold plated MP pension plan sullies all of us in
this place. We should be talking of eliminating them, not
modifying them. We are all touched by this national scandal
regardless of the personal stands which we may take in this place
on this matter.
I beg members for the sake of the reputation of us and of this
place to defeat Bill C-85 so that we can all stand a little
straighter and walk a little taller.
Mr. Roger Pomerleau (Anjou-Rivière-des-Prairies,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, I was not supposed to speak in the House
today. I was not planning to do so but I was touched by a few of
the arguments of my friends from the Reform Party.
One of my friends from the Reform Party said, and I fully
agree with him, that we the people of the House of Commons are
getting rich while the poor people in Canada are getting poorer
every day.
First, the goal of the Bloc Quebecois is the sovereignty of
Quebec. There will be a referendum soon. If we win it, and I
think we will, all the people from the Bloc will lose their jobs
and we will have no pension. We are not in the debate for that
reason.
Second, I was also touched by an argument that is often
brought forward by my friends in the Reform and I fully agree
with that argument too. Slowly but surely we are hitting the wall
and it is going to be quite soon.
I was reading this morning that a few economists, probably
Canadian economists, were talking about a possible recession
not later than the beginning of 1996. I saw a few papers last week
where a few economists from the United States were talking
12385
about a possible slowdown in the U.S., say in 1997. All these
things ahead of us are not good news at all.
Also we accept the fact that the Wall Street Journal was
talking of a possible breakdown of Canada from an economical
point of view. We can look at the budget too. My friends from
the Reform Party said it many times and I agree with a lot of
their suggestions.
(1615)
If we look at the budget we see all the cuts and we very well
know that despite the billions cut the debt problem will be there
next year and the year after. We are in a vicious circle and if we
do not do something, nothing will get us out of this circle.
Since the beginning of this Parliament I have been listening to
the ideas of my friends from the Reform Party. If there is one
thing I realized throughout all the arguments, I never said it
before but I will say now, people in the Reform Party came here
with a certain naive point of view. I say very positively they had
a new way of seeing things. They wanted to change things in a
system that has been going on and on forever. We have to have a
naive point of view to change things.
Most people were in a type of profound deception and realized
today that despite all the good ideas nothing will be changed. Up
to a certain point I understand their feelings. The Reform Party
should realize that despite all the good ideas it has, and some are
effectively good ideas, it will never be able to put them to the
test because the political situation will not allow it.
Perhaps my friends will not like this comment, but the Reform
Party will never be elected in Quebec. My friends from the
Reform who were second in many areas in Ontario could very
well think of winning an election if Quebec were not there.
My friends should think seriously about supporting the
sovereignty of Quebec. Otherwise all the good ideas will stay
good ideas with no meaning at all because the Reform will never
be in power to put those ideas to work.
I remind my friends we do not want to destroy Canada. We
fully understand Canada must go through a profound change.
We think one change has to be a political one. Our friends
believe and I also believe it also has to be an economic change.
We are ready to make the first part of the change, a political one,
to become sovereign, and to take our fair share of the Canadian
assets and the debt and pay it. Every day we will pay our share of
the debt and we will go on. Canadians will be able to control
their country the way they want to and Reform will be able to
think seriously about getting into power and making the major
changes it feels it must make. For the moment this is only a
dream.
About three months ago I had a discussion with one of my
friends from the Reform Party. He told me the only thing Quebec
wants is more power and more money. My friend is absolutely
right. What my friend did not seem to understand is that it is the
federalists in Quebec who that. The sovereignists do not want
that at all. We do not want more power and more money. We
want all the power and no money at all. We want to be at home in
Quebec. We will pay our fair share of the debt and the Reform
Party will be able to get into power in Canada and make the
major changes.
For the moment this idea may seem strange but it is one to
think about. I hope my friends will think about it.
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton-Melville, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to address the issue today.
If one issue has given ordinary Canadians a very sour view of
politicians it is the grossly over generous MP pension plan. It
has become a symbol of the elitist mentality that has overtaken
our politicians when they are entrusted with the strings of the
public purse.
(1620 )
It seems when we get there we give people the impression we
think on a higher level. This MP pension plan has become a
symbol for that type of elitist mentality. People have become so
cynical about those who are put in power as their elected
representatives that they are skeptical that any good thing can
come out of this place. The cynicism is so widespread they do
not believe a thing politicians say any longer.
When I worked in underdeveloped countries we lived out in
the rain forest. In our home, besides cockroaches, ants and all
that other kind of stuff, we had tiny lizards called geckos. My
wife did not like these things so she ask our son to throw them
out. If one tries to grab them and is not quick enough and only
catches their tail, they have the amazing capacity to drop their
tail. They are not harmed. In one's hand is this wildly wiggling
tail and the gecko gets away.
When I came back to Canada I saw the same thing in our
political arena. We have an election and when the election is
done all we are left with is a wildly wiggling tongue. We have
these politicians who make these promises, their tongues
wiggling wildly, and they escape to Ottawa. They do their thing
there. They line their pockets with this over generous MP
pension plan. The public is outraged at the money being spent on
this MP pension plan. They think it is a public disgrace.
There are some secondary effects to the MP pension plan.
People are concerned about the millions being paid out through
the plan. It is a disgrace. It is a plan put in place by the very
people who will benefit from it. The people here use the
taxpayers' hard earned money to line their pockets and people
find that unacceptable.
However, there is something else. There are some secondary
effects to the MP pension plan. The MP pension plan gives
people the wrong incentive in the performance of their job. The
plan is totally out of line with what people who are not elected
12386
could realistically expect; a plan so structured that an MP who
can get re-elected can dip into it. It is structured in a such a way
that the longer one is here the greater one's benefit so that it
accrues into the millions of dollars if one can get re-elected for
several terms.
What does that mean? Politicians can come to this place with
the most honourable of intentions but when they see they will
make a huge pile of money if they can get re-elected, that they
can get the equivalent of winning a lottery, they become
distorted in their vision of the country. They become blurred
with the dollar signs before their eyes because of the MP pension
plan. Most people do not realize it is not just the money we
spend on this, it is the negative spin off effects because of this
MP pension plan.
What is one of the biggest problems before the country today?
Most people would say it is the economic condition. We have a
huge debt and deficit. There is a lack of jobs and unemployment
is way out of line. Our taxes are too high. How did it get that
way? How did we come to the point at which we have overspent
to the tune that we have enslaved our children for years to come?
Politicians made promises so they could get re-elected. They
have the incentive built in with the MP pension plan that if they
can only win the next election maybe things will hang together
long enough.
(1625)
Let me propose this. Let us remove this Cadillac pension plan.
Let us reduce the salary of MPs until they solve our debt and
deficit problem, until they begin to reduce taxes, until the jobs
come back into the country.
Let us reduce that incentive until it is all fixed. If we were to
take half of our salary, if we were to do away with the MP
pension plan until all these problems were fixed overnight we
would have a wonderful solution to everything ailing us. There
is no incentive built into the system to make politicians do what
is right for the country. The incentives are in the reverse.
MPs made promises just to get re-elected. They will cater to
special interest groups and give them promises so they can get
re-elected. They will raise taxes so they can promise more. They
will spend more to get votes in their ridings. They will do
whatever they can to get re-elected and feed at the trough.
What is another big problem in the country? I alluded to it
when I told a little story about the wiggling tail and the wiggling
tongue. We only have democracy for a very short time every five
years. Politicians listen to the people only when it is convenient.
I see this very clearly in the gun control issue which I have
been dealing with. Politicians will hide what they are doing.
They do not even ask the people what they think. Politicians are
afraid to put democratic reforms in this place so the people will
have more to say.
Why do they not put in referendums? Why do they not allow
for citizen initiatives? Why do they not allow the recall of an MP
who does not do their job? It is because those citizens might say:
``You are putting too much into your own pocket. You are not
running the country the way we want it run''.
There was an old farmer once who was on hard times, as many
farmers are. He had a donkey. He had a hard time feeding the
donkey. He thought he would put a little sawdust into his oats to
make him feel full.
The first day he put a little sawdust into the oats. He gave it to
the donkey and the donkey did not seem to notice. The donkey
felt full and did not complain. He did it again the next day. He
put a little more sawdust into the oats and he continued to do it.
He thought he was fooling the donkey. The donkey seemed
fine. To make a long story short, one day he came out after the
donkey was on a diet of almost pure sawdust and all four legs
were up in the air.
That is what is happening in this country. It will soon have all
four legs up in the air because people are being fed sawdust, a
little more every day. The politicians keep adding it to their diet
and think people do not notice.
They can put the MP pension plan in place. They think: ``I will
put this along and the people will swallow it. They will accept
it''. At some point people will say: ``That is enough. We really
have had enough of this sawdust. We might feel full today but
hard times are coming''.
We need to have real MP pension plan reform because it is
hurting the country. It provides the wrong incentive for people
to get re-elected or even to get elected. This is supposed to be
the highest court in the land. That is an absolute joke.
We on an average day have very few people here listening to
the debate, wondering if the legislation is good or not because
we do not even have a say. The Prime Minister and the few
people he surrounds himself with control the whole thing. There
are no free votes in here.
The people of this country do not even have any input as to
what the pension plan will be. The government will ram it
through. That is why we do not have anybody sitting around here
listening to the debate. It is because this is not the highest court
in the land any more.
We have made a mockery of this place and what happens here.
People do not even bother to show up to listen. I came here to
build up the country and to make positive changes. People want
to see people in public life there because they believe in sound
principles, willing to serve their country selflessly.
12387
(1630 )
The MP pension plan gives people the wrong incentive. It
gives people elected to this place the incentive to remain here,
not necessarily just to serve their country.
I have lived on the farm. I have raised pigs and I know what
pigs are like. I wish everybody could see what it is like when
they get to the trough. They stand there and defend their places.
The biggest pig gets his snout in there and all the little pigs dare
not disturb him. The pigs keep their snouts in there until they get
fatter and fatter. They are pig headed. I wish I had time to
explain what pig headed is. It is well illustrated when observing
them. They will not listen to reason. They will do what they are
bent on doing and will not change their plans in any way.
I see that happening in this place. We do not just have our
noses in the trough; we are also being pig-headed in this whole
issue.
Mr. Elwin Hermanson (Kindersley-Lloydminster, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, I have followed the debate today with great
interest. I thank my colleagues for strongly debating Bill C-85
and the massive problems with it.
I also thank my colleague from the Bloc Quebecois who rose
to speak to the bill. He actually made a number of very good
points. Of course there were a couple of points with which I
would vigorously disagree. However, I thank my colleague from
the Bloc for indicating that we are in fiscal trouble in this
country and that we do need to see a more responsible approach
to economic concerns by the government, which is something
we have not seen.
I rise today to again debate Bill C-85. This bill would be more
appropriately entitled: ``an act to make minimal changes to the
gold plated MP pension plan''. It is clearly a case of the
government not being honest with the Canadian public. Its
overblown pension scheme is nothing more than a back door
way of increasing MPs' remuneration. It would rather do it
through the back door with fat pensions and hope that the public
will not notice or kick up a fuss.
I do not understand why this government is fighting so hard to
hang on to its ridiculous pension. Other jurisdictions have come
to grips with reality and have done the responsible thing: they
have reduced or even eliminated their members' pensions.
The province of Alberta completely eliminated the pension
plan for its MLAs as there was such public hostility to the very
rich compensation plan.
In the past week or two, in my home province of
Saskatchewan, Premier Roy Romanow announced a major
reduction in pension levels for MLAs, including himself. That
was done in an attempt to help his cause in the upcoming
provincial election. He has eliminated the taxpayer ripoff and is
instituting a matching dollar for dollar pension system for
MLAs. It seems that Saskatchewan can set up a pension system
with a ratio of one to one but 3.6:1 is the best this government
can do.
This is a Liberal government and that is a socialist
government. I have heard members opposite talk about how
terrible these socialist governments are. I certainly am not a
socialist. I never was and I do not intend to become one.
However, it is quite revealing when even a socialist government
in Saskatchewan comes forward with a more responsible
pension plan for its MLAs than this government brings forward
for members of Parliament.
What the public objects to is the fact that the pension plan for
MPs is not only out of line with other pension plans, but it would
be illegal if it were not specially protected by Parliament. The
same government that wants to continue the fat cat pension
would prosecute any private firm which set up a similar plan.
How is that for two-tier irony?
Reformers on this side of the House have long said that
members of Parliament should not be treated better than other
Canadians. Bill C-85 does not bring the compensation package
for MPs any closer to private sector levels. Rather, it
underscores and reinforces the differences between private
Canadians and members of Parliament.
This is, after all, the House of Commons where ordinary
Canadians are to come together and govern themselves. It is not
the House of Lords, to be filled with aristocracy. I always have
trouble with that word, probably because I do not fit in that
class. It is not an exclusive club reserved for the privileged, even
though the Liberals like to treat it as one. Members of
Parliament have the means to provide for their own retirement
and they should do that, the same as many Canadians have to do.
Not being part of the aristocracy, I was a self-employed
farmer before the election. Being a self-employed farmer, I had
to make arrangements for my future retirement. The only
pension plan available to me as a farmer was the CPP, which I
may speak about later if I have time.
(1635 )
Canadians want to move toward the next century with
enthusiasm. They want the government to be in touch with
reality. Government members have forgotten that it is
Canadians they are here to represent. Canadians want the
government to reflect society's progress into the future. They do
not want to be dragged back a few decades.
The Liberals are unwilling or unable to come up with new
plans and structures suitable for the Canadian society of today.
The only new thing this government has come up with is new
taxes. It seems to think the role of government is to invent new
ways to take money out of the economy to support old govern-
12388
ment programs that are out of date and not living up to our
expectations, including an outrageous pension plan.
The government's refusal to really change the MP pension
plan is a good example of this resistance to the kind of change
Canadians are demanding. When compared with the massive
problems with the state of our government, the MP pension plan
may not seem like a big deal. However, if the government cannot
solve a simple problem like this when the solution is so clear,
when do we have any hope it will be able to deal with the big
questions facing our country?
Plain old common sense says that if we take care of the little
things the big things will take care of themselves. The
government is failing on the smaller issues, particularly these
issues of principle. It is no wonder it is way off base when it
comes to the larger problems facing our country.
The issue of early retirement has not been adequately
addressed. In the private sector if someone takes early
retirement, benefit levels are lower for each additional year they
draw from the plan. Private sector pensions do this because they
believe in being actuarially sound, a concept that seems to be
foreign to this government.
The total national and provincial debt exceeds 100 per cent of
our GDP. Government programs like the Canada pension plan
are threatening to collapse because of the hundreds of billions of
dollars in unfunded liability. The Liberals have never done
anything on an actuarial basis, but it is high time they started.
They do not even know how to balance the books. They never
have and I am becoming convinced they never will. It seems
only Reformers have the knowledge of how to balance the
books.
How can this government and the Trudeau and Mulroney
administrations before it explain to Canadians that they have
ruined CPP, the people's pension plan? They have ruined it,
thereby jeopardizing the retirement plans of hundreds of
thousands, if not millions of Canadians. At the same time the
government worked hard to protect and preserve the MP pension
plan. It is purely self-interest and nothing more.
The Liberal government is putting its own interests ahead of
the country. Its members are selfish. As the member for
Macleod so aptly said, they should be described as hypo-grits.
That is one of the best descriptions I have heard in days.
The pensions being drawn by some past members have been
brought to the attention of the House. Massive, luxurious
pensions are being given to Perrin Beatty, Ed Broadbent, Joe
Clark, Brian Mulroney and John Turner. It is interesting that
John Turner moonlighted while he was here. Not only did he
collect his MP salary, but he was in business. He was never in
this place. He collected two salaries. Now he leaves this place
and he collects a fat pension. Where is the responsibility? Why
do we not start designing programs that are fair and reasonable,
not this kind of nonsense. Mazankowski, Wilson, they are all
receiving their fat pensions.
Future recipients will be the member for Yukon, the member
for Hamilton East, the member for Halifax, the member for York
South-Weston and York West. Where will this money come
from?
It will come out of the pockets of fishermen with lower
incomes or perhaps no income at all because there are no fish. It
will come out of the pockets of farmers who are paying higher
grain transportation costs. It will come out of the pockets of
salesmen who are paying an extra 1.5 cents a litre gasoline tax.
The money will come from the pockets of small business people.
It will come from the pockets of retired folk who are paying for
this luxurious pension plan.
I am sick and tired of the whining from the members opposite
about how tough it is for retired MPs. I just received a notice
from Gowling, Strathy and Henderson in my mail. It is pleased
to announce that the Right Hon. Ramon J. Hnatyshyn has
rejoined the firm as a partner. They are having a little party to
celebrate that and would like me to come. I think I will pass up
on the invitation.
In this so-called pension reform the government has refused
to stray too far from the old cushy system in this plan. It is
reticent to cut off its own gravy train no matter what the public
thinks about it. Despite the fact that the Canadian public
disapproves of the MP pension plan, the government is
unwilling to significantly change it.
I ask the member for Kingston and the Islands to listen. The
Liberal frontbenchers are like alcoholics who have tasted the
booze and want a generous supply. They cannot control it. They
are pension addicts. To them public money is like alcohol, one
dollar is too much and a billion is never enough.
(1640)
The Liberals should do the honourable thing and go cold
turkey. They should opt out of this plan. They want to make their
backbenchers pensionaholics too, just like they are so that they
can all cry in their beer together. They have to have trough
regular or trough lite. They are addicted to the pension and
cannot walk away from it.
Bill C-85 fails to deliver on effective pension reforms in two
ways. It fails to bring the MP pensions in line with the private
sector plans available to most Canadians. More important, it
fails to bring MP pensions in line with what Canadians are
12389
willing to provide for members of Parliament. We cannot lose
sight of the fact that we work for the Canadian public.
I will be opting out of the pension plan. I want to represent the
wishes of my constituents in this matter. They have told me in no
uncertain terms that the MP pension plan is totally out of line.
I did a survey in my riding and 97 per cent of the respondents
said that the MP pension plan is irresponsible and they would
like me to have nothing to do with it. I want to do the right thing.
I am proud to opt out of this thing. I would much rather take less
income and have no pension when I leave this place than do the
wrong thing and be an embarrassment to my constituents and my
country.
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: It is my duty to inform the House that
the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are
as follows: the hon. member for Mackenzie-agriculture; the
hon. member for Bourassa-immigration.
[English]
Ms. Val Meredith (Surrey-White Rock-South Langley,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to have the
opportunity to speak on the issue of MP pensions.
I represent a constituency where there is a very large number
of retired Canadians. Part of my constituency is described as
God's waiting room because of the number of elderly people
who live there. From the responses I get I can see that the
make-up of the constituency is changing.
There is a lot of concern, not only from the elderly people in
my constituency but from those in the middle age category and
the younger people who live there. I take a bit of ribbing from
my colleagues because I have developed a two way
communication with my constituents. I often have stacks and
stacks of letters from them, letting me know what they have to
say.
My latest return had over 2,800 responses. The most
consistent concern of my constituents is the overbloated MP
pension plan. In their comments I hear a real contempt for
members of Parliament and their overbloated pension plan. I
would like to share some of their comments.
One constituent says: ``I think government pensions are too
early for too few years and too much. We cannot afford it. The
general public do not get pensions like that''. Another says:
``MP pensions should start at age 65. MP pension plans should
be in line with the general public. Cuts to MP pensions are not
deep enough. They are whittling away at our pensions but are
still feathering their own nests. We worked hard and long to save
for our retirement but we might as well have sat in a bar and
drank our savings. To this government it seems sloth is rewarded
and hard work and responsibility are penalized. Let the MPs cut
their excessive pensions before they cut ours.''
``Why do government pension plans still totally out perform
private plans? How can they say they want to increase eligibility
to 67, yet they are eligible at 55? MP pension plan changes and
cuts are not nearly enough, in fact are quite inadequate and
presumably made to prevent rebellion. Your disgusted taxpayers
are expected to make large sacrifices to help pay off the huge
debt.''
``MP pension changes must be more drastic.'' No one should
be allowed to have pensions before the age of 60. Changes
should be retroactive to include all former members of
Parliament.
(1645)
``The MP pension plan is a joke. The proposed changes are a
joke. Would Svend and Ms. Copps make well over $1 million
pulling down a pension from the private sector? Could you,
Val?''
``Government pensions should be equivalent to the private
sector. On members of Parliament pensions further cuts should
be made here. Why should MPs receive higher pensions than one
would receive in private industry? Changes should have been
more drastic and no pension should be paid out before 55,
regardless of when the MP started. MP pensions should be in
line with industry''. I could go on. I took one small handful from
the stack I have.
I repeat, the one consistent message I get from my
constituents is they will not accept another change to the
pension plan that leaves it as bloated and as unresponsive to the
demands of the constituency, that leadership be shown by the
members of Parliament in the House. They expect if sacrifices
are to be asked of them there should be like sacrifices from the
people sitting in the House.
Like my associate, I will be opting out of the MP pension plan.
I have given notice to my constituents that I will be opting out of
the plan. I have received many phone calls and many letters
supporting that decision. They do not feel I should be here
without any kind of compensation. However, they feel the
pension plan is asking too much from the ordinary taxpayer. I
have to agree with them.
The Reform Party has come up with a very plausible pension
plan that would make plenty of sense not only to members of
Parliament but to the people we expect to pay for the pension
plan. I suggest the government side take a close look at the
alternatives placed before it from the Reform Party; a plan that
would be adequate, a plan that would be fair and responsive to
the years of service MPs put in. That would not be any more than
what the person in the private sector of the people in my
constituency can expect.
12390
I hear from some of the seniors in my constituency that many
of them are retired on $975 a month after 30 years of working for
the same company. How can I possibly defend a pension plan
that allows a person to collect after 55, that allows individuals
who sat in the House for over six years to collect millions of
dollars over a period of time up until they are 75. How can I
defend that? I cannot.
I ask the House to please reconsider the bill before us now and
to be responsive to the thousands and thousands of Canadians
asking the House to show leadership and to show members are
responsive to what Canadians are asking for.
It disturbs me to hear the responses and the comments from
across the House. They do not seem to feel there are any
expectations of them to make this kind of sacrifice. It disturbs
me these people sitting in the House of Commons who have been
put here to represent Canadians in their constituencies are not
listening to what Canadians are saying. They are certainly not
representing Canadian views in the House of Commons.
I hope before the debate is over they will get the message from
their constituencies. I thank you, Mr. Speaker, for the
opportunity to share my constituents' concern with the House. I
hope their message is shared across the country and listened to
by the Liberal government.
(1650)
Mr. Ian McClelland (Edmonton Southwest, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I join the debate with some reluctance. I was very
proud to be elected to the House and to be a member of
Parliament. When I ran and became involved in politics I felt
one of the most important things I could and should bring to the
House is leadership.
I knew then and I know today our country is facing some very
difficult times. We are into a period of financial restructuring in
our country which will make what has gone on in the last year or
will go on in this next year seem like child's play. Sooner or later
we will have to come face to face with the reality that our
country is $550 billion in debt and in the hole at the rate of $120
million a day.
If our country did not have this onerous debt then I do not
think the pension problem would be necessarily as fractious as it
is. The debate has brought out a level of meanness in the House
which has not really been here in much of the debate that has
taken place, even though there have been some very contentious
issues debated.
When we talk about pensions and income we are talking about
where people really live. When we take the facade off the role or
the life of a member of Parliament every one of us has exactly
the same problems and wishes as every other Canadian. Every
one of us is making a mortgage payment or a car payment or has
a child in university or has someone else they are looking after.
Every one of us has financial obligations.
Being a member of Parliament does not mean one's life
automatically magically changes. Many people in the House
make a substantial financial sacrifice to come to the House.
What happens is people are making less than they did before
they were elected.
Everyone having been elected knew that before they got the
job and should not complain about it once they have it. We went
into this with our eyes wide open. Why should members of
Parliament be prepared to make the sacrifice? That is the
essence of the debate.
As our country goes into this period of travail as we learn to
live within our means the people in positions of leadership have
to exhibit leadership by taking the first hit by leading by
example. I do not think any Canadian begrudges a fair income or
a fair standard of living or a fair remuneration to a member of
Parliament. However, they do not want to see members of
Parliament living far beyond what is available to anybody else
in a similar circumstance. Why are there two sets of rules, one
for the law makers and one for everyone else? That is precisely
the reason Parliament has brought disrepute upon itself, having
one set of rules for everybody else and one for Parliament.
The basic question is does the remuneration package in any
way help or hinder the development of good governance in our
country?
In my private life I would ask the question from a business
perspective. Does the remuneration package offered to people in
this business help or hinder the development of the business?
Does it attract and retain the very best people or does it retain
people we do not want to retain who perhaps should move on
somewhere else? Does it lead to the very highest ideals or does it
lead to mediocrity?
I will pick up on a theme presented earlier in the debate that
perhaps because the salary level is low, which has been said by
the Prime Minister time and time again and others in the House,
the pension is abnormally high because the salary is abnormally
low.
(1655)
I suspect our remuneration package does more to bring
mediocrity to the House than it does to bring a level of
commitment and excellence we should all hope for. The pension
is such a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow any normal human
being will be affected in their day to day decisions with how they
can go about getting into that pot of gold.
The question is when we come here and make a decision, are
we making the decisions best for the country in the long run?
Are we making decisions best for the next generation or are we
making decisions for the next election? Are we statesmen or
politicians?
12391
If our decisions are motivated by winning the next election
rather than doing what is right for the next generation, I submit
we are politicians. We will never be statesmen. The pension is so
rich human nature would automatically cause people to think:
``How should I respond in this situation? Will it help me or
hinder me in the next election? Will it help or hinder me within
my caucus? If I go against this program, am I likely not to get a
nomination? Am I likely to be pushed out of caucus? Am I likely
to be dropped from a committee? What would happen to my
image if I am not a team player?''
That is the reason members of Parliament should be fairly
compensated. They should look after their own pension
arrangements like everyone else. We should be well paid and we
should look after our pensions.
We should have a dollar for dollar contribution to buy an
RRSP, just like everyone else. The decisions we make that affect
us should not hold us harmless from the effect of these decisions
on the economy as a whole.
If we in the House and those who came before us manage to
mismanage our economy to the point at which 35 cents of every
dollar collected by the federal government goes to paying
interest on money we have already spent, should these people be
rewarded with a pension for life? Hardly.
Should people be motivate to be re-engaged to have a
political life because of the pension, which begs the question
whether our function as members of Parliament should be to act
as a board of directors. Should we be micromanaging the
economy as we are wont to do?
Why all of a sudden does Parliament have to sit 180 days of
the year? Why can we not retain our real lives and come here just
enough to be a board of directors and have a professional civil
service actually run the country?
I suspect as human nature drives this remuneration package
none of us on any side of the House is perfect. What on earth is
the point of the government's hiring outside third party
arbitrators to make decisions on remuneration for members of
Parliament and then ignoring the advice?
It is a pox on our Houses. How can we be determining what
our income or remuneration should be? Why can that not be
done by an impartial qualified third party and accept the results
that come from that impartial third party? Why should it be done
internally?
I want to close with a spirit of optimism because I have great
faith in our country. I still have great faith in Parliament.
Remember, what is done today can be corrected tomorrow, and
that is the beauty of Parliament.
Although the legislation will pass, there will be another dawn.
There will be a tomorrow. In the closing stanza of ``The Rime of
the Ancient Mariner'', the poem that says water, water
everywhere and not a drop to drink, the parable of the story is he
will rise upon the morn, a sadder and a wiser man.
(1700 )
I suspect that the result of the Liberal government, having had
the opportunity to do the right thing and taking a half measure,
hesitant step and calling it an achievement, will rise upon the
morn and rue the day sadder and wiser at the next election.
Mr. Dale Johnston (Wetaskiwin, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
normally it is a great pleasure for me to rise to speak in the
House, but today I find the need to speak to this bill is not much
of a pleasure.
In 1952 the Liberal government of Louis St. Laurent
introduced the members retiring allowance. He described it as
actuarially sound and a matter that would operate without any
further charge on the public funds than the matching of the
contributions to be made by all members of Parliament. That is
the way it should work.
How in the world did it get so far off track? Today the
taxpayers contribute 80 per cent and the members of Parliament
contribute 20 per cent.
Only a government with its head in the sand would ask
Canadians, who have the fastest growing personal tax burden in
the industrialized world, to shoulder the burden of deficit
reduction without first putting its own house in order.
Bill C-85 tells Canadians that the majority of the people they
elected to Parliament in 1993 care more about their personal
financial security than they do about the deficit or the tax
burden.
Canadians will soon learn that while all 52 Reform MPs are
opting out of the pension plan, only one Liberal MP has the
fortitude to say no. Canadians will soon realize that the majority
of members they elected to Parliament do not really care about
the debt or the tax burden ordinary Canadians have to face. They
talk the talk, but when it affects them personally, and when it is
going to affect their retirement, they quickly seek refuge back at
the trough.
Pension reform was a major issue in the last election, and I
suspect it will be in the next election. When my colleague was
quoting from ``The Rime of the Ancient Mariner'', a line
occurred to me as well: and like a cross around my neck the
albatross was hung. This is an albatross the Liberal government
will have a difficult time getting off its neck.
Mr. Milliken: Maybe we should call an election to find out.
Mr. Johnston: Maybe we should. The hon. member suggests
that there should be an election. I challenge him to call an
election on this issue. It is an excellent idea.
12392
They even boasted in the speech from the throne that pension
reform was a plank in their platform. They have made a mockery
of their own promises.
Bill C-85 was not at all what the Canadian taxpayers
expected. Instead of real pension reform, the Liberal caucus
agreed to protect senior MPs and youthful cabinet ministers,
because it knows that when the Reform Party forms the next
government, and it will, contrary to what my friend in the Bloc
suggested, the Liberals will not be getting any patronage jobs to
supplement their incomes.
They claim to have eliminated double dipping. However, even
if they were to get a federal job, their pension benefits would
keep on growing, thanks to inflation indexing.
I am amazed that with only two years left before the
government has to face the Canadian electorate it would have
the gall to introduce a bill that would give MPs a pension other
Canadians can only dream of, especially since it is the average
Canadian taxpayer who will have to pay for this now silver
plated pension plan.
(1705)
How much will they have to pay? They will have to pay
plenty. For every dollar contributed by all those Liberals and
Bloc MPs who are rushing to opt into the plan, the taxpayer
contributes $3.50. It is hard to believe that the government is not
embarrassed to boast about a reduction of 1 per cent in the
accrual rate, from 5 per cent to 4 per cent. Wonderful, but it is
still double what it is in the private sector.
Where else but in Parliament could one receive a pension for
only six years of service and that pension would be indexed for
life and payable starting at age 55? This is early retirement by
anyone's standards.
In the private sector, only 22 per cent of the pension plans are
adjusted automatically for inflation. It takes MPs only 19 years
to qualify for a full pension. A person in the private sector would
have to work for 35 years to be eligible for anything similar.
The Prime Minister attempts to justify this premium pension
plan by saying that MPs have a difficult time readjusting to
private life and finding jobs in the outside world. Surely to
goodness they cannot have that much difficulty. If they do have
that much difficulty, I fail to see how it could be the taxpayer's
fault.
Often when we ask the Prime Minister to justify his continued
support for this cash for life scheme he compares MP pensions
to hockey players' salaries. For one thing, we are talking about
salaries, as opposed to pension plans; let us get that straight. For
another thing, I believe the Liberals are skating on very thin ice
on this one, because in Winnipeg we saw what happened when
the players demanded too much. The players and those who
hired them parted company. On the next election day the
Canadian taxpayers will be telling the players in the government
they would just as soon part company with them.
The provincial legislators in Prince Edward Island and in
Alberta realized that the taxpayers could not afford to support
them forever and have scrapped their pension plans. In
Manitoba, Premier Filmon promised to cancel the pension plan
and replace it with a registered retirement savings plan
arrangement.
We are not suggesting that members of Parliament should not
be properly paid for the job we do. We all know that we work
hard here at this job and that we are eligible and we deserve a
decent salary for it. But let us separate salary from pensions. The
Reform Party does not say that members of Parliament are not
deserving of some sort of retirement benefit as well. Let us have
a retirement benefit that we can take in good conscience and we
can look our constituents in the eye and say yes, I contributed
and yes, you contributed; it was equal and it was dollar for dollar
and we do not have the feeling that we are taking advantage of
the people who pay our salary and put us here in the first place.
Canadians are being asked by their government to do with
less. In the vast majority of cases Canadians can accept that.
They can accept that there is not enough money to fund all the
government programs that have been created over the last 30
years. They cannot accept the excuses offered by this
government to continue to fund a pension plan that Canada
cannot afford. The government has to get its own financial house
in order before asking Canadians to support them for life.
During the 1993 election campaign I promised the
constituents of Wetaskiwin that I would not participate in the
existing gold-plated pension plan. As a matter of fact, one of the
first things we did when we got to Ottawa was to go over to pay
and benefits and sign a declaration there saying that we were
paying into this pension plan only under duress and that we had
no intention whatsoever of collecting.
(1710 )
This is not something we came up with in the last few hours so
that we could debate it in the House. It is something we signed at
an early date because we in good conscience did not want to
participate in a pension plan of this type.
On February 24 and during our annual general meeting, when
I explained to my constituents how meagre the changes in this
bill were, I told them there was only one acceptable clause in it,
and that was the one that would allow me to remain outside of
the pension plan.
I question the intention of the government. Perhaps I am
treading on thin ground here, but I think there was some malice
in that very clause. It was aimed directly at the Reform Party.
The idea of course would be that some would opt out and some
would not and it would effectively split our caucus. I can say that
12393
this has not happened and that our caucus has decided
individually and collectively that we will opt out of the program.
Members have probably deduced by now that I am opting out
of this plan with its silver lining. I recommend that anybody in
the House who plans to be here for more than one term follow
suit and do the same.
Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, one of the guiding principles of leadership is that the
leader set an example. People despise double standards,
especially with regard to leadership.
In the past, Canadian governments have been marked in their
leadership and have been characterized by inaccessibility,
arrogance, a disregard for the masses, in fact contempt for the
masses, some corruption, and rule from an ivory tower
mentality, a them versus us mentality. The proof was in the last
election, when the government of the day was in no uncertain
terms turfed from its position in government into an
insignificant number in the House.
An hon. member: It will happen again.
Mr. Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca): What were the
Canadian people saying in that election? We want democracy.
We want to be heard. We want fairness, accountability,
transparency, and above all else we want honesty from our
elected officials. We want our elected officials to represent the
people and we want to do for ourselves what we do unto others.
The single most objectionable thing that typifies the last
government and in some ways applies to this government is the
MP pension plan, this gold plated plan, which is unlike those in
the private sector.
In response to the dogged efforts of the Reform Party, the
government has finally buckled under and decided to revamp the
plan. Is that what it truly did? Not at all. It brought out a plan that
is mere it window dressing. We have seen a lot of it.
Yesterday when we spoke in the House on the OAS and CPP
bill we saw much the same thing. Let me explain why. What
happens with the new plan? The accrual rate decreases, but it
only decreases from 5 per cent to 4 per cent. This is still double
the rate in the private sector.
Furthermore, the Income Tax Act says that there can only be a
maximum of 2 per cent. Therefore, the plan put forth by the
government and the preceding plan are illegal.
The new plan is fully indexed to inflation. Do we see that in
the private sector? Not at all. In the private sector, 80 per cent of
plans are not indexed to inflation.
What is the new minimum age? It is 55, not 60. That is fine to
an extent. However there is no decrease in the payments that are
down if anybody collects before the age of 60. Again I bring
your attention to the Income Tax Act.
(1715)
The Income Tax Act says that pensions must be reduced by at
least 3 per cent per year if collected before age 60. Does this
occur in the plan before us?
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca): Does it occur in
the new plan?
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca): What does this do?
It is another MP pension plan that contravenes the Income Tax
Act and is completely illegal.
This new plan decreases the contribution rate from MPs from
11 per cent to 9 per cent. What does that do? It increases the pay
that MPs take home. This plan is at least two times as lucrative
as private sector plans and continues to contravene the Income
Tax Act in at least two cases. Therefore that makes it completely
and utterly illegal.
We in the Reform Party, as all members, have been given the
chance by the government to opt out. What happened? To a
person, the members of my party have opted out of this plan.
When many of us, myself included, were given the sheets to sign
for our pension plan when we came here in January 1994, we
wrote on the top that we would not sign out of protest because we
would not be a part of this plan.
It was an election promise we made and one that we keep. It is
not only we who will opt out of this plan. There are a handful of
hearty souls from the government side who, under duress and
intense pressure from their own people, have decided to hold
strong and represent the wishes of their constituents and opt out.
Are the members of the Bloc Quebecois, a group that is
committed to destroying the country and tearing it apart, to be
members of this plan? Absolutely. I find it completely
hypocritical that these members are rushing to be members of a
pension plan in a country they are running away from. Why does
this group want to join a pension plan from a country that it
wants to tear apart? It is hypocrisy. Its members should look in
their souls and in the mirror when they decide to do this.
In this party, we propose not to be destructive but to be
constructive. We have said all along that we want to be a part of
the community, to join hands with the rest of the country to make
it strong. One of the things that we can do is have the same
pension plan as the people who voted for us.
We want to have the same pension plan as the private sector
and in essence, lead by example. Therefore, we should collect
12394
the MP pension plan at age 60 and decrease the contributions by
the taxpayer. As one of my friends from my party just said, we
should make it a one to one contribution. Above all else, let the
MP control and manage his or her pension plan. It is interesting
to reflect on this for a moment because it shows the the
difference in mind set and philosophy that we in the Reform
Party have to the government.
Government members believe they should get their lecherous
tentacles into all aspects of people's lives from business to MP
pensions. We in this party and the majority of Canadians believe
that it is not the government members who should do the
majority of things in the country, but people, individuals and
private organizations are the ones who can best deal with the
problems that affect them. Let government do what government
does best and what the private sector cannot do and let the
people and individuals do everything else. Our job is to
empower the people to do that.
One of my colleagues was musing the other day about the
so-called increase in pay. What he was really doing is trying to
find ways of decreasing the cost to the taxpayer. He proposed
abolishing the MP pension plan, abolishing the allowance but
increasing the salary to compensate for this. He qualified this by
saying that this does not in any way, shape or form represent the
will or the wishes of this party.
Nobody in this party wants to increase the salaries of any one
of us. The hon. member for Beaver River started off when she
was a lone person in the House by voluntarily decreasing her
salary by 10 per cent. She was the only individual in the House to
do this. It is important to understand that out of the 295 members
only one MP at that time did that. That MP was from the Reform
Party of Canada.
(1720 )
Other things we have done that members of the other parties
have not done is that we took the bull by the horns and tried to
find out other constructive ways of saving the taxpayer money.
We saved money on our flights by flying economy. We in my
office managed to save the taxpayers at least $10,000 to $12,000
per year by flying economy and on cheap flights. If all of us were
to do that we would save the taxpayers at least $3 million a year.
We should look at that because it is certainly something
constructive that we could do.
Many of our constituents have complained about this MP
pension plan. Many of these people are individuals who fought
in the last war, which we celebrated this week, and who have
worked all of their lives only to have pensions of less than
$1,000 a month. Furthermore, on that amount of money they are
remorselessly taxed by the Canadian government. It is not
something I would lay at this government's feet right now as it is
something that has gone on for a long time.
I ask the government to look with compassion on those
individuals who have made such a significant contribution to the
backbone of the country. They have worked all their lives to
make it the safe place that it is today.
I implore the government to lead by example. Give the people
the confidence they need in their elected officials. As we saw in
World War II, we came together to do great things, to defeat the
fascism of Nazi Germany. That hope is not lost on us now. In
1995 we can all come together to build Canada, the greatest
country in the world, to once again stand on its feet and be the
middle power that it can be. We can only do that by coming
together, leading by example and working together for the
benefit and future of our wonderful country.
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
during the election in 1993 I made one promise to my
constituents. I promised that when I got to Ottawa I would take
every opportunity to let their voice be heard. Therefore, I am
pleased to have the opportunity. For all my Wild Rose friends
out there in TV land or wherever they are, this is for you. My
Wild Rose constituents say scrap the obnoxious, ridiculous
pension plan of MPs. I agree with them wholeheartedly.
Yesterday school students from the county of Wheatland in
my riding visited me. Some of my colleagues joined me and we
had a great visit. I really have a hard time understanding how a
member of Parliament could stand in front of a group of young
people in today's times and say to them: ``We have this huge
debt of $550 billion. It will be $600 billion or more by the time
this Parliament ends or maybe even more than that''.
``Your future does not look too good. It will be very expensive
to get an education because we are really in trouble financially.
We are sorry about that. Probably the old age pension, the
Canada pension and things of that nature which we have grown
so accustomed to admiring and having in this country will be
gone when you get my age, but that is just the way it goes. We
really tried hard. Of course you won't mind, students'', as I told
them yesterday, ``if I hang on to a pension, would you, that will
provide me with several thousands of dollars during my old age
while you will probably have nothing''.
The students quickly told me how much they minded. I know
that same message is loud and clear at any school. If any
member wants to go to a school and has the nerve to tell the
students exactly what the situation is and then turn around and
tell them that he or she is well looked after, let us see how they
respond back.
12395
(1725 )
I have a funny feeling there are a lot of members in this
Parliament that would not even dare do such a thing. That is a
little too honest. That is a little too much up front.
When this Parliament first met the minister of human
resources would stand up to talk about the one million children
in the country living in poverty and how we had to address that.
Eighteen months later, we are still talking about the one million
children living in poverty. Let us give up our pensions, let us
feed the hungry kids. Does that make sense? Not if you are
greedy, it sure does not. If you are a greedy individual, you will
accept this pension plan. We will hear the minister of human
resources talk about hungry children again next year.
I received a call from an individual who works with the
Children's Aid Society, a relief society. He asked if I would
come to the House and encourage the members of Parliament
who are flying around the country to give that up and donate the
money to his children in Ottawa. They could sure use the extra
few thousand dollars that is being spent.
Look at news items like: Goods news, MP junkets will not be
cut. ``We are going to Europe, Asia and Africa. Never mind, we
are only $600 billion in the hole. We have hungry children all
over Canada. Never mind, we are going to take these trips''.
What kind of leadership is that? Where are their hearts? Where
are their minds?
An hon. member: They are greedy.
Mr. Thompson: Greedy is right, the exact word. If we were to
call a consultant to come into Parliament to address this group I
am sure the consultant would not hesitate to say in order to set
things in order, we had better start at the top and set an example.
Not a member in the House has not received a call from an old
age pensioner who has said: ``I do not know how I will make it. I
have had another cutback and I cannot make it''. I really doubt
there is one member in the House that has never received a call
like that. I cannot understand how any member can receive these
call and say: We are doing all we can and in time things will
change.
If we give ourselves pensions like these and then talk to an
elderly person on the phone about what they are doing and what
they are getting, we are being hypocritical. Talk about being
hypocritical. Talk about being two faced. For heaven's sake, if
you have a caring attitude then go to these communities, stand in
front of the people on your own two feet and do what you were
sent here to do. Look after the people of this country. They are
expecting you to do that.
I am sure this consultant would say give up your pensions, it
would be the smart thing to do. The consultant would probably
say sell the aeroplanes, that would be the right thing to do. Do
not go to Europe, Asia and Africa, do not need to; you can do
without that. Feed the hungry; help the elderly; do your job''.
That is the attitude demonstrated over there of which Canadians
are sick. I hope they would call an election tomorrow to
demonstrate that same attitude.
I was the mayor of the town of Sundre back in the seventies.
The council and I decided we would engage a group of citizens
to determine what our remuneration should be. We left it in their
hands. We were pleased with their decision and the community
as a whole decided that is what we should receive.
I challenge the government. I challenge the Bloc Quebecois
Party, the Liberal Party-I know the Reformers will be more
than pleased to participate-to find a group of citizens to come
to this place to determine what our salaries, our pensions and a
few other things should be. After all, in case they have forgotten
we work for them, let them decide.
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: It being 5:30 p.m., the House will now
proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business as
listed on today's Order Paper.
_____________________________________________
12395
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[
English]
Hon. Audrey McLaughlin (Yukon, NDP) moved:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should provide core
funding to ensure that all women diagnosed with breast cancer have access,
through survivor led support groups, to information on the various treatments
available in their community and local counselling services provided by peer
support groups and survivors.
She said: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to present the motion
today in the House of Commons because I know that all
Canadians are concerned about this very serious health issue.
However concern is not enough. It is necessary to put action and
to put funds behind our desire for increased health resources for
women. In particular, around the issue of breast cancer, the
statistics are very clear on what is needed.
[Translation]
Mr. Speaker, you may know that two of my colleagues from
the previous parliament, the former members for New
Westminster and Mission-Coquitlam, worked tirelessly to
have this House put research on breast cancer and support
services for women with breast cancer on the top of its list of
priorities.
12396
They helped convince this House to embark on an important
study regarding the issue in 1992. The same year, the
Sub-committee on the Status of Women published its
conclusions and a list of recommendations in a report entitled
``Breast Cancer: Unanswered Questions''. I have a copy of that
report with me.
Unfortunately, I have to conclude that most of the questions
raised at the time have remained unanswered. The members of
the sub-committee made 49 recommendations, and I think it is
important to revisit a few today. The sub-committee
recommended that the federal government work with the
provinces and territories to give the cancer research centres
already in place in each region of the country the designation of
centres of excellence.
[English]
The centres of excellence would be a sort of one-stop
treatment and information centre for women diagnosed with
breast cancer.
I cannot tell the House how many women I have spoken with
who say they have lacked proper information on treatment and
on treatment options. There is confusion even on things such as
breast self-examination and the options generally available to
women.
We need to concentrate our efforts and to pool our knowledge.
The regional centres idea originally proposed by the committee
would go a long way in centralizing and co-ordinating
information.
The committee of 1992 also recommended that the federal
government establish a 1-800 line to provide information to
women on various self-examination techniques and on new
research and treatment options. Nothing concrete has been done
about the plan. I suggest it is worth reviewing and should be
seriously considered.
The Ontario Breast Cancer Support and Research Centre
currently has an application before the federal Minister of
Health requesting that such a pilot for a 1-800 number be
established in Ontario. I hope the pilot, proposed to be jointly
funded through private funds and public funds, would be
seriously considered by the minister. It would be an attempt to
work on the recommendations that took a lot of time of
parliamentarians and were very clearly thought out. The
committee heard a number of witnesses as well.
There is also an outstanding recommendation for a national
registry to keep a record of devices implanted in the body. This
issue is very strongly linked to the motion we are discussing
today since many women have in the past decided on breast
reconstruction using silicone implants after they have
undergone a mastectomy to remove a breast cancer.
(1735)
It is also an issue for women who have not had breast cancer.
It remains an extremely serious and outstanding issue that breast
implants have not been thoroughly researched or thoroughly
regulated by the federal government. It is an absolutely crucial
area in which work must be done.
I might add there are a number of self-support groups that are
trying to work with the government on the issue but receive no
financial support. There are a number of civil suits pending
against the manufacturers of silicone gel implants. I urge the
federal government to play a strong role in support of these
women.
In March 1995 I met with a number of women who had
experience with their implants. I can assure everyone in the
House that their problems are real. These problems, in addition
to causing endless pain and suffering and disrupting family life,
are a huge cost to the Canada health care system.
We are very fond of saying we have to do something to cut
health care costs. By regulation by the Canadian government in
the area and by information being available to women about the
medical devices we could do much to address that health care
cost with a very minimum of support from the federal
government.
One of the most important recommendations in the standing
committee's report on breast cancer asked that the federal
government provide some direct funding for survivor led
women's support groups. We cannot underestimate the
importance of the recommendation. That is why my motion
today deals specifically with it.
One reason survivor led support groups can play such an
important role is that women who volunteer their time have been
through the process. They are able to empathize with other
women, to talk about how they have handled the issue, and to
deal with confusion and fear first hand. It is important for a
woman diagnosed with breast cancer to have that kind of
support. For a very minimal cost we could be saving health care
costs down the line in a substantial way.
There is a lot of research to suggest that a positive attitude and
a strong support network can actually help people fight diseases.
The support groups we now have in Canada have had a
tremendously positive effect on the lives of women.
This is important in light of the fact that scientific research
has failed to come up with strong links between the causes of
breast cancer and the onset of the disease. Despite years of
research we still do not know the cause of the majority of breast
cancers. Scientists have identified links like a genetic marker,
age and a woman's estrogen level, but in 60 per cent to 70 per
cent of all cases none of the identified risk factors is at play. It is
incredibly important to look at some of the ways we can help
women when they are diagnosed.
12397
There is a huge library of research. I have many
bibliographies in my own office that I would be happy to share
with members of the House which point to the link between
self-help groups and improved quality of life in the face of
illness. Clearly with a minimum of assistance to help
co-ordinate volunteers and disseminate information we can
have a positive health outcome. I would suggest it is an
economic saving as well.
Recently American researchers, as an example, released their
findings from a study of 7,000 people in California. They had
monitored the people for nine years to see if there was a link
between strong social and family support networks and
improved mortality. In every health category people with
stronger social ties, people with stronger friendships, for
example, had a lower incidence of illness. When they did get
sick they stood a better chance of recovery.
When we talk about health care costs and health programs we
tend to think of them generally speaking in a very narrow
framework. We have to begin to think about how we can enhance
existing links that provide support for people in these traumatic
instances. In addition, as the research indicates they also work.
(1740)
Canadian studies have made the same links in breast cancer.
There was a study in British Columbia indicating that for women
with breast cancer, women's friendships, social network and
employment status had a positive impact on survival chances.
The link is somewhat stronger for women who have had some
form of outside support.
Over 5,400 Canadian women will die of breast cancer this
year. An estimated 17,000 Canadian women will be newly
diagnosed with the disease. That is one in nine Canadian
women. We have made some advances. I know of many people
who have successfully fought the disease and have gone on to
raise their families and to live happy and productive lives.
Statistics show it is still a very major health issue. Breast
cancer is the second most frequently occurring cancer in the
country. More shocking still-and I have not really seen
research on why it is-Canada's rate of breast cancer is the
second highest in the world, second only to the United States.
There is much we need to do in the area.
The obvious question is where do we get the money? It is a
legitimate one. There are avenues through the health promotion
and contribution program at Health Canada which has funded
some projects to help breast cancer support groups
communicate with one another. As in so many other areas, by
assisting groups with a small amount of money we can have a
huge benefit. By spending the funds we have well we enhance
the links that exist in the community.
Federal support for survivor led support groups could assume
a model, for example the one set up for the AIDS secretariat. It is
a very good model in terms of looking at how the federal
government can co-ordinate funding in an appropriate way.
That model of secretariat does two things. It indicates a
commitment on the part of government to a serious health issue
and provides a central source for promotion of dealing with the
issue both within government departments and throughout the
country.
As much as anyone, certainly the New Democratic Party
knows there is not a lot of money and revenues are tight. It is a
question of priorities. It is a question of what we wish to see for
the population of the country.
There are some who would refer to spending $60 million on
the Senate. I would say save national medicare and sacrifice the
Senate. There is still not a single support group in Ontario that
has had help from the Canadian government. I might be wrong
and could be corrected, but I do not know of any other support
group in a province or territory that is assisted by the
government.
There is also a related issue which I think is very real because
again we are talking about priorities, reduced funding and
choices. The social assistance and health transfer proposed
under Bill C-76 is now undergoing discussion in committee.
Seven billion dollars in cuts will only make it more difficult in
this area of health.
As we are looking at priorities in Canada, what it means to be
a citizen of Canada, a comprehensive system of national health
care must be foremost. Many groups and individuals are very
concerned that the bill will simply result in less co-ordination
and reduce funding in both provinces and territories for the kind
of groups that are needed and the kind of research that is needed.
(1745 )
In the same recently even the United Nations has expressed
strong concern about the health and social service transfers,
saying they could strip disadvantaged groups of their
fundamental rights.
Health Canada is currently funding five pilot projects to
improve communication between small support groups. I
commend that. It is a good start on the things that need to be
done. Funding for these networking groups ends in 1996. I hope
by then we can say we have been able to extend a helping hand to
many grassroot support groups working with sufferers of breast
cancer.
I am not talking about a lot of funding, simply an amount that
will help groups co-ordinate and do their work. One group I
have become familiar with is the Burlington breast cancer
support services. This group was the first survivor directed
support organization in Canada. It started out with assistance
12398
from the government but today it does not receive any funding
from the government. It is making it on memberships and
private donations and was fortunate enough to have office space
donated. It was that little bit of funding that got it started that
made the difference in the group's being able to continue and
establish itself.
The group in Burlington receives 155 calls for support each
month; 57 people drop in to its office each month and in 1994,
111 people volunteered over 15,000 hours to provide peer
support and keep the organization running. This is a very clear
example of how a little assistance can have a very beneficial
result for people suffering from this disease.
Every parliamentarian should have the chance to speak to the
women who volunteer in these kinds of activities, women who
have suffered breast cancer or to their families. Obviously in
this instance it affects many more people than the person who
has the illness. Parliamentarians would then see the level of
commitment and dedication and support they give which is
absolutely crucial to others.
Today I presented some of the 2,000 petitions I received from
men and women across the country, from every province and
territory, asking parliamentarians for the support I have
discussed here. I have received over 30,000 signatures, the
largest number I have received on any petition. Many women
have called and written to me asking for more petitions. Others
have written to tell me of their own experiences with breast
cancer, suggesting new areas where parliamentarians can help.
The other day I received a completed petition from the
member for Calgary Southeast, and I thank her. I believe this is a
non-partisan issue. I look forward to hearing the views of my
colleagues in the House on this issue. I hope it will not simply be
addressed here and then forgotten.
The subcommittee of 1992 has not had a lot of action on the
recommendations. I encourage all parliamentarians, both men
and women, to become involved in supporting the issue and
making it a new national priority.
The other day I spoke with members of the Canadian heritage
committee, responsible for the status of women, and was told
the committee does not have plans to discuss this issue. I believe
we should look at this again. I also think we should act on it.
Most women will say: ``Do not do another study. We have had a
lot of studies. Give us action. We have given you the ideas''.
Core funding for survivor led breast cancer services is one of
the most important, most cost effective ways to address the
issue.
One of Ontario's breast cancer activists said recently we
cannot ignore the needs of women living with the disease while
we are searching for the cure.
Ms. Jean Augustine (Parliamentary Secretary to Prime
Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I commend the hon. member for
Yukon for bringing this important issue to the House.
We assure her we will co-operate with her and with all her
colleagues both male and female to find a solution to the
problem of breast cancer.
(1750 )
I want to speak to the federal initiatives in the area of breast
cancer. The Minister of Health, the secretary of state with
responsibility for women's issues and the Liberal women's
caucus have all lately addressed the issue of breast cancer,
talking about wellness, promotion and education, ensuring we
support our community in the search for the necessary
awareness and cure.
For too long breast cancer has been one of the most silent
killers in Canadian households. Breast cancer, as the member
said, is a leading cause of cancer deaths among women. It is
estimated that breast cancer accounts for 28 per cent of newly
diagnosed cancer cases in women and for 20 per cent of all
deaths due to cancer.
Members of the House should be aware the chances of
acquiring breast cancer increase with age. In spite of progress in
cancer research and improved methods of early detection,
Canadian cancer statistics 1995 show the incidence of breast
cancer has been increasing at about 1 per cent annually since
1983.
Mortality, on the other hand, has not increased. Rather, it has
marginally decreased. About one in nine women will develop
breast cancer over their lifetime, and this rate has remained
unchanged. Breast cancer will strike 17,700 in 1995 and kill
5,400 this year alone.
For those affected the disease is often disfiguring and requires
months of treatment and years of adjustment. I recently
experienced an exhibition called ``Survivors'' where most
poignantly those facts were brought out.
On June 12, 1992 the Standing Committee on Health and
Welfare, Social Affairs, Seniors and the Status of Women tabled
a report entitled ``Breast Cancer: Unanswered Questions''. In its
response to the report the federal government at the time
recognized the devastating effects of breast cancer to society as
a whole and to Canadian women in particular and commended
the standing committee for bringing to its attention the need for
a concerted national effort to address this important women's
health issue.
The federal government supported the overall direction of the
standing committee's recommendations and sought, through a
number of initiatives, to bridge the gaps in knowledge in the
areas of prevention, screening, treatment and care. The
government's response recognized and identified the need for
in-
12399
creased collaboration to address the health issue and serve as a
framework to seek effective ways of responding to this national
concern.
Twenty-five million dollars over five years was allocated for
to establish a breast cancer research challenge fund, to develop
five breast cancer information exchange projects, to convene a
national forum, to support an co-ordinate provincial breast
cancer screening activities, to support actions to foster
uniformly high standards of care for breast cancer, and to
support activities to enhance continuing education and training
of health professionals in the area of breast cancer.
In exercising leadership in the area of research the federal
government committed $20 million to the breast cancer research
challenge fund and issued a challenge to individuals,
communities and the corporate sector to match if not exceed
these funds. The National Cancer Institute of Canada agreed to
manage the funds accumulated through this challenge. This is
accomplished through the management committee for the
Canadian breast cancer research initiative, a partnership
between Health Canada, the Medical Research Council of
Canada, the Canadian Cancer Society and the National Institute
of Canada.
In the spring of 1993 the federal government issued a request
for proposals in order to fund existing cancer centres and other
health care institutions across Canada for the development of
breast cancer information exchange pilot projects.
(1755 )
These projects are now a reality and we are very proud of the
work taking place. They are funded with $2.7 million over five
years and located in five regions of Canada. They are developing
specific expertise to disseminate state of the art, user friendly
information on various aspects of breast cancer. These projects
have a strong evaluation component and will serve as a model
which can be used by other cancer centres or health care
institutions to disseminate information on breast cancer to
women, their families and health practitioners.
The national forum on breast cancer was held in Montreal on
November 14 to 16, 1993 to determine priorities and directions
in the areas of breast cancer prevention, screening, treatment,
care, research as well as address issues relevant to survivors
support, advocacy and networking. Throughout the event a
number of common principles emerged, the need for better
communication, collaboration, co-ordination at all levels and
for greater consumer involvement.
The federal government has also committed $1.05 million
over five years to the continued support and co-ordination of
provincial breast cancer screening activities. To that effect
Health Canada continues to assist with the activities of the
Canadian breast cancer screening initiative.
Representation from the provincial and territorial ministries
of health, existing provincial organized screening programs, the
Canadian Breast Cancer Foundation, the Canadian Breast
Cancer Network, the Canadian Cancer Society, the National
Cancer Institute of Canada and Statistics Canada are all
involved in the screening initiative.
In order to support activities to foster uniformly high
standards of care a steering committee for the development of
care and treatment guidelines has been established. It is
composed of women living with breast cancer as well as
representatives from organizations and groups responsible for
delivering and implementing guidelines.
The Canadian Medical Association, the Canadian Nurses
Association, provincial health ministries, the National Cancer
Institute of Canada, representatives of provincial cancer
agencies or their equivalent, the Royal College of Physicians
and Surgeons of Canada, the College of Family Physicians of
Canada, the Federation of Medical Licensing and Authorities of
Canada and Health Canada are participating on the steering
committee.
Ten specific topics related to the care and treatment of women
with breast cancer have been selected as the starting point for
their activities.
The point I am making here is that there are many individuals,
groups and organizations involved in looking for responses and
answers to the issue of breast cancer. In order to improve the
scope and content of the professional-patient relationship a
co-ordinating committee on professional education has been
established. The committee has brought together professional
associations and representatives. Survivors of breast cancer are
a key to any work that has to take place and to all the components
of the federal breast cancer initiative.
Survivors' views and perspectives drive the products being
undertaken. Each component of the initiative has survivor
representatives as well as women at risk.
It is important to note that survivor driven organizations form
a key characteristic of the breast cancer information exchange
pilot projects' overall information dissemination strategy. This
strategy is built on the concept of collaboration with key
partners, chief among whom are women at risk, survivors and
health care providers.
I think I speak for everyone on this side of the House in
addressing this issue and in affirming we want to work with all
members, especially with the member for Yukon, to eradicate
this problem in our midst. This issue will not be ignored.
12400
[Translation]
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I
welcome this opportunity to speak in today's debate on Motion
M-376, presented by the hon. member for Yukon. The motion
proposes that the government should provide core funding that
would be used to offer women diagnosed with breast cancer
information on the various treatments available and on services
provided by support groups.
The motion draws our attention to a major health problem for
women in Quebec and Canada. Breast cancer, the incidence of
which is certainly not declining, kills many women every year.
(1800)
Despite the interest in improving the status of women in
Canada and legislation and policies aimed at correcting the
inequities women experience, it is a fact that the status of
women still leaves much to be desired, compared with the status
of men and that which remains to be done before women enjoy
the same advantages as men.
I am very aware of and concerned about health care. I think it
is important to remind the federal government that we urgently
need a health care system that is adapted to womens' needs. The
latest studies on women's health have made us realize that as far
as health care is concerned, women's needs differ greatly from
men's.
Financial resources dedicated to research on women's health
are inadequate. There is a lack of resources for breast cancer
research, gynaecology and obstetrics, research on chronic and
degenerative diseases, mental health, violence, professional
illnesses, the special needs of immigrant women, women of
ethnic origin, native women, teenagers, elderly women, and the
list goes on.
At the beginning of this session the Minister of Health told us
how she intended to promote women's health. She described the
programs her government intended to implement to remedy the
inadequacies of the health care system in the treatment of
women.
Unfortunately, that is not what happened. Since this
government came to power, funding for health care has dropped
steadily. This government has maintained a freeze on transfer
payments to the provinces, which has meant a reduction in
resources for the health care systems operated by the provinces.
In its latest budget, the government went even further by
cutting $70 million from the budget of its own Department of
Health, which has seen its general envelope shrink by 3.8 per
cent.
The motion moved by the leader of the New Democratic Party
reminds the government of the importance of supporting action
taken to fight breast cancer.
Breast cancer is frightening. This disease kills women at a
rate of one every 12 minutes in North America. During the past
30 years, this type of cancer has spread like a particularly nasty
plague, and the only effective remedy remains prevention and
early detection of the disease.
In Canada, the situation is not very encouraging. Canada has
the highest rate of breast cancer in the world. Every year, 15,000
new cases of breast cancer are detected. Five thousand women
will die of breast cancer this year. This is one death every two
hours. In Quebec alone, nearly 1,500 women will succumb to
this terrible disease. Every woman in Canada and Quebec has
one chance out of ten of contracting breast cancer in the course
of a lifetime. Earlier, my government colleague said one chance
in nine. There may have been a decline, but it is still too high.
The results of a nationwide poll released last Thursday
revealed that 41 per cent of women in Canada and Quebec saw
breast cancer as the main threat to their lives.
It is high time effective steps were taken to conquer this
disease. We need a cancer detection strategy that considers both
genetic and environmental factors. In fact, that is what
transpired from the final report of the National Forum on Breast
Cancer tabled last fall. The report recommended immediately
introducing national guidelines for medical practitioners, to
inform physicians and encourage upgrading of their skills. So
far, nothing has been done.
Also a public awareness and information campaign would be
needed to inform and support breast cancer sufferers. This was
in fact suggested by the hon. member for Yukon in her motion.
The best way to beat breast cancer is to invest in research. At
the National Forum on Breast Cancer, the government promised
to spend $20 million over five years. We hope it will keep its
promise.
Although we realize that breast cancer is a scourge that has
been ignored to a shocking extent by politicians and the medical
community, the Bloc Quebecois must remind the government
that health care is an exclusively provincial jurisdiction.
(1805)
If the federal government decides to support the war against
breast cancer in some way or other, we remind the government
that it must do so in consultation with its provincial partners.
Many provinces have already introduced effective measures.
In British Columbia, Ontario and now Quebec, provincial
governments have launched extensive breast cancer detection
programs. The Quebec government's plan aims to reduce the
mortality rate by 25 per cent over seven years.
12401
As long as there are places where a woman's life is valued less
than a man's, women's health problems will tend to be ignored,
to the detriment of their own lives, the well-being of their
families and the development of their country. Throughout
history, women have shown this extraordinary capacity for
getting together and hammering out a consensus. Our present
day societies, which seem to be marching only to the drum of
economic and cultural globalization, need more than ever before
what women have to offer.
For the sake of soaring profits, society is pushing an
increasing number of people out to its margins and providing a
breeding ground for many forms of fundamentalism. Women,
because they are aware of the problem and of their strengths,
will have to stand together to fight effectively against poverty
and extremism.
If it is to develop harmoniously, society cannot afford to
ignore women and the issues and problems they are facing.
Women's health is one of the factors that has a direct impact on
the evolution of women's place in our society. I maintain that we
must take action where it will do the most good, in other words,
we must invest in medical research now to find a cure for breast
cancer.
We should act now by raising the federal government's
financial support to the level of the commitments it made to the
provinces when the Canada Health Act was passed. Women's
health cannot but improve as a result.
[English]
Mr. Harold Culbert (Carleton-Charlotte, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I commend the hon. member for Yukon on her initiative
regarding this most worthwhile matter contained in Motion No.
376.
This morning the standing committee on health discussed this
very matter, not in any great depth but with seriousness due to
the subject matter. It was discussed from the perspective of what
was being done in research in order to overcome breast cancer.
We had before the standing committee this morning Dr. Henry
Friesen, who is president of the Medical Research Council of
Canada. Dr. Friesen commented that there has not been a cure
found for this most dreaded infliction, which has indeed touched
many families right across the country.
Perhaps the work being done by the standing committee on
health can act as a coordinator to assist in carrying this forward
so that the information will flow in the future.
Quite obviously, suffering from any illness brings an undue
burden on anyone. Compounding it with the problem of lack of
information is indeed unfair and unnecessary in this day and
age. The hon. member's motion would ensure that women
suffering from breast cancer are provided with all the
information they may need and the counselling they may
require. I suggest again that in this day in age that is only
humane. When suffering from any illness, information
regarding all types of treatment should be readily available and
accessible to all. It should certainly be the patient's right to
obtain any and all information and have immediate access to the
same.
(1810)
It is quite obvious in this case, as in many circumstances, that
to have a support group, those who may have suffered or family
members who have suffered in a similar fashion, can comfort,
assist and indicate what might be expected in future days,
weeks, and months, and can be a tremendous comfort to anyone
suffering in this case.
Quite obviously a person cannot be expected to make such an
important medical decision without having weighed all those
possible alternatives that may be available. We are told that
Canadians have the second highest rate of breast cancer in the
world. It has hit, as I have mentioned before, almost every
family in Canada in recent years, and that suffering continues
today, day in and day out, from this dreaded disease.
The survivor led breast cancer support group would provide
sufferers with an opportunity for the needed information and the
support they so often lack. There is no question that this type of
support group can be most helpful through their own personal
experiences. It is time to realize that we must take action to help
women with breast cancer in the best possible way while we wait
for that cure to be discovered.
For this reason I am very happy to support the hon. member's
motion this evening and I certainly to encourage my government
to adopt a platform that will ensure that women diagnosed with
breast cancer are provided with the information they deserve
and need. We wait and hope for our ultimate goal of discovery of
a cure to eliminate this dreaded suffering so that we need not
have a group nor the suffering in the future. To quote from the
Medical Research Council: ``It is to promote, assist, and
undertake basic applied clinical research in Canada in the health
sciences and to advise the minister in respect of such matters
relating to such research as the minister may refer to the council
for its consideration''.
We are certainly hopeful that through the research council and
the work done through universities and other labs and tests here
in Canada a cure for this dreaded disease will be found as soon as
is feasibly possible. In the meantime, we certainly encourage all
in the House to support the hon. member's endeavour in this
particular motion to assist those suffering and to provide the
assistance and expertise of support groups at the earliest
possible date.
12402
Mrs. Jan Brown (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
too am pleased to rise to speak to this motion today.
In its simplicity, this motion on breast cancer funding can be
looked upon as an opportunity to address a topic of specific
interest and importance to women and of general interest and
importance to everyone. I agree with my hon. colleague from
Yukon that we need to address breast cancer as a new national
priority.
(1815 )
In the address I will give looking at the whole issue of breast
cancer, I bring to the forefront of the debate the extent and fit of
government involvement. This is not simply a question of breast
cancer funding but of government research funding as a whole.
Who should regulate it, why and how?
Breast cancer is a disease that afflicts one out of nine
Canadian women, placing Canada as the country with the second
highest rate of breast cancer in the world. These statistics were
already cited today but I am going to reiterate them. There are
approximately 17,000 new cases diagnosed each year and over
5,000 deaths. Breast cancer is the second most frequently
occurring form of cancer next only to lung cancer. These figures
emphasize the scope and significance of this disease.
Although breast cancer is considered a women's disease it
afflicts all Canadians in one form or another. We all have
mothers, sisters, wives, girlfriends, if not ourselves who are
very possibly at risk and one in nine will be diagnosed in her
lifetime.
I have witnessed the physical and emotional devastation of
breast cancer. As a teenager I watched a beloved aunt die slowly
and painfully over a six-year period. Her cancer began in her
breast and it was unstoppable.
Where does government belong in the battle against breast
cancer? What would be the most effective use of scarce
government resources targeted to breast cancer funding? I refer
to the idea of creative productivity. Government does and
should have a role in the fight against breast cancer. Let us not
move too quickly to ask big brother to jump in to spend
dwindling resources without thinking this through.
Government funded and operated initiatives have not always
been the most efficient despite good intentions. We are all too
familiar with the economic and bureaucratic nightmare of
exploding costs that some government run programs can create.
We need just to look at the current state of our health care system
and its high degree of inefficiency.
Funding to breast cancer research has seen a surge over the
past three years partly from government but more significantly
from corporate funders and private individuals and programs. In
1990 less than $500,000 was committed to breast cancer
research. Since 1992 the federal government has committed $20
million toward breast cancer research over five years. The
Canadian Cancer Society has put up another $10 million.
Corporate donors are expected to provide another $15 million.
In areas of medical research where what we are looking for are
cures and preventative measures, government does indeed have
a very important role to play. It already has a hand in regulation
of scientific research but even here it is not the core funder. The
private sector has been a much more impressive financial
contributor to research into breast cancer. Certainly
government's tardy involvement in breast cancer studies is
further proof as to why we might want to look for a more
collaborative effort between both public and private initiatives.
In 1986, unable to persuade the Canadian Cancer Society to
change its policy on targeting funding, a group of Toronto
women established the Canadian Breast Cancer Foundation.
Since its inception it has collected well in excess of $1 million
for research and education.
In 1990 the Canadian Cancer Society agreed to start accepting
funds earmarked for specific cancer sites. All involved agree
that it is largely due to survivor groups that the initiative came
together.
Strength and courage are demonstrated by breast cancer
survivors who, after being told that they have a disease that is
almost surely disfiguring and far too often fatal, have had the
initiative to organize themselves into impressive fundraising
and information gathering organizations.
Pressured by women's organizations and survivor groups, the
funding has grown to an estimated $15 million annually, up from
$5 million in 1989. This funding is being put into research for
not only cures but also causes.
Research into BRCA1 which is a gene believed to cause 2 to 4
per cent of breast cancers and studies examining the
development of a vaccine to stop some kind of breast cancers in
their attacks by activating the immune system are just two
examples of current efforts to combat this deadly disease.
As of 1994 more than half of the financial resources of breast
cancer research have come from non-government agencies and
organizations. According to people I have spoken to within
these organizations, they are not looking to government for
financial support. Their argument is that financial support from
government is all too often attached to government meddling. It
is also perceived as unpredictable, particularly in light of
current proposed cuts.
12403
(1820)
We must continue to encourage and invite collaboration
between public and private groups. We would also be wise to
continue to promote the independence demonstrated by many
support groups.
I believe the hon. member's motion may have missed an
important step and presumes that more government involvement
is necessarily better. Would funding not be put to better use if it
remained in areas of prevention and cure development? Then
organizations which are already set up to provide support,
information and education, such as breast cancer survivor
groups and the Canadian Breast Cancer Foundation, are
prepared to fulfil their supportive roles.
The reality of Canada's debt makes us cautious about inviting
government to spend more money we do not really have.
Therefore we encourage more creative means of funding in
some of these areas.
The government is already allocating funds toward cancer
research. Should we not leave it to those who know where that
money is best spent to decide where to put it, rather than having
government make that decision for them? Who better to make
funding allocation decisions than those who have spent the
better part of their lives studying and examining the disease?
That is not to say they should be given a free hand, but once the
money has been earmarked, then it is up to the scientists and
researchers to do with it what is most needed.
As it stands, decisions on who should get what funding is
tenuous at best when we see that it is often not necessarily the
most needy who are getting a fair share of government funding.
When some diseases responsible for taking less than one-tenth
the lives taken from breast cancer are getting almost eight times
the funding, the source of this decision must be questioned, that
source being the federal government.
In 1993 the national forum on breast cancer referred to a
holistic approach to the treatment and care of breast cancer, one
that explicitly acknowledges both the non-medical and medical
experiences for women and their families. It concluded that
breast cancer has a profound physical and emotional effect on
not only women with the disease, but very directly on their
community of family and friends.
Let us not give exclusive invitations to government into our
homes and personal lives. Government does have a role to
perform in addressing breast cancer, but not at the expense of
community based networks of support.
What we have advocated has been the need for Canadians to
take charge of their lives and to some degree exclude
government from the expectation of care. Family and
community support must be encouraged, but this will not be
done by making government responsible for providing those
support groups. Women and families suffering from breast
cancer and any debilitating disease need supports to give them
strength together to survive and in a sense conquer these
diseases, if not physically at least spiritually.
The national forum on breast cancer has also recommended a
collaborative effort among government and corporate and
private sectors. Acknowledging that government has neither the
resources nor the ability to be the sole responsible actor in breast
cancer initiatives empowers survivors and their families to beat
this deadly foe.
Mr. Rey D. Pagtakhan (Winnipeg North, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to speak briefly on the motion moved by
the member for Yukon:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should provide core
funding to ensure that all women diagnosed with breast cancer have access,
through survivor led support groups, to information on the various treatments
available in their community and local counselling services provided by peer
support groups and survivors.
I commend the hon. member for this initiative because it is
time that we acknowledged such a need.
Tomorrow a friend of the family is being buried. She died
from cancer. Only the privacy of communication would
preclude me from mentioning her name. This woman had
contributed to the community, to the city of Winnipeg, to
women's causes, to the university, and I would say to Canada
and the world. In a sense learning of her death was timely in
view of the debate on this motion.
(1825 )
It is known that when a patient suffers from any illness the
immediate problem is the patient is met with shock. To a woman
suffering from cancer that shock is even greater. During shock
one of the best sources of support comes from her peers. Let us
not underestimate the importance this group of people
contribute to patient care.
We need all the information available for that patient to be
able to make the informed consent. We equally need the
counselling that will come from her peers. Norman Cousins, in
The Healing Heart, emphasized the powerful influence of
psychological factors in the cure and the care of any patient with
cancer or other illness. This is now a recognized medical
phenomenon and this motion calls our attention to that very
need. I wish Canada had such a centre to study and to focus on
the role and the importance of psychological counselling in the
care of any patient.
I am told Canada has the second highest rate of breast cancer
in the world. Let us hope that one day Canada would be last on
the list. Recently in Maclean's magazine I came across the news
of a new discovery that we can help to diagnose or anticipate the
high incidence of cancer among women. If one demonstrates the
increased density through the particular use of a technology,
density in the sense that the proportion of the fibrous tissue in
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relation to the fat and the glandular elements is more, then there
is a high propensity for cancer.
Day in and day out we are developing technology that will
allow us to make an early diagnosis, but when a diagnosis of
cancer is made for any given woman, all resources must be
provided. It is timely that core funding be given. The least we
could do is help that individual woman with cancer.
The Deputy Speaker: There being no further members rising
I wonder if the hon. member for Yukon wishes to rise to close the
debate?
Ms. McLaughlin: Mr. Speaker, thank you for the
opportunity. I thank members present today for their
interventions.
Today's debate has shown this is not a partisan issue. A
commitment to prevention and research for women suffering
from breast cancer is something we must always bring forward.
This is not just a women's issue as was pointed out by one of the
speakers. This is an issue affecting all Canadians and all
Canadian families, certainly my own family. I am sure that
virtually everyone in the House has experienced something
similar.
We must put action behind the words we have spoken today.
There is a great need. We have all cited the statistics, but what
will really address that need is to acknowledge that we must
work with those who are sufferers of the disease, to help
them-as I mentioned in my remarks, many people do
recover-and to present a hopeful and a positive view. This is an
issue that members of Parliament can seriously address.
To the member from the health committee, perhaps this is an
issue they might wish to explore further in reviewing the
recommendations of 1992 to see what has been accomplished
and what yet remains to be accomplished. I thank all members
for their comments.
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: The hour provided for the
consideration of Private Members' Business has now expired.
Pursuant to Standing Order 96(1), the order is dropped from the
Order Paper.
_____________________________________________
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ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
(1830)
[English]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38
deemed to have been moved.
Mr. Vic Althouse (Mackenzie, NDP): Mr. Speaker, a couple
of weeks ago I directed a question to the Minister of Transport.
At the same time I advanced the thesis that since the government
wished to privatize the CNR part of the railway system in the
country, he should give consideration to offering that railway to
the farmers of western Canada to whom the government has
offered $1.6 billion as part of the Crow benefit buyout.
Since the value of the railway appears to be approximately
that amount, it seemed to be a very good match. It would have
saved the government a considerable amount in brokerage fees
and so on. It would have left future prospects for the country
much better off, given the users would be in control of at least
one of the national railways and would therefore presumably
operate it in a manner that permitted and encouraged the
continued use and export of products over the rail lines.
I am aware the government is constrained by a report it had
created internally by a subcommittee which was set up basically
to respond to an offer by CPR to buy out a section of the CN track
through northern Ontario.
The committee offered a solution called commercialization to
which the minister referred in his response. I submit to the
minister and to his department that the concept of
commercialization, as proposed in the committee, is terribly out
of date even though it is only six or eight months old because
since that time the government has made its decision to give the
payout of $1.6 billion to prairie farmers. That payout may be
considerably less than what was required and what should have
been made under the circumstances of the long term, in
perpetuity commitment that governments made with farmers
almost 10 decades ago.
However, the parameters have changed. The amount of money
on the table is equivalent to the value of CNR. It would save the
government a considerable amount of dollars in brokerage fees
to perform the switch. Farmers who are not interested due to
retirement or proximity to the other railway in owning CN
shares could take them to the market and get rid of them.
Perhaps other resource users such as the potash, coal, sulphur
and wood industries would use the opportunity to buy shares.
A system of control to the users makes sense, given the new
paradigm of globalism that has emerged with the various trade
agreements under GATT, et cetera. If we are to have viable
industries and viable communities in Canada, this completes the
all too necessary link of control from farm to port or from woods
or mine to port that is required. The commercialization option
that was proposed by the subcommittee of the Liberal caucus is
out of date and no longer applicable. I urge the government to
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abandon it and to look at up to date solutions that will have a
much better chance of long term viability.
I give the minister and his government the example of prairie
grain elevators during the teens when government elevators
were purchased. They were all losers. They lost money. The
government decided to privatize them. The farmers took them
over as a co-operative. By having control of the elevators they
have subsequently turned a series of losing operations into a
winning proposition and now operate two of the largest
worldwide co-operative grain companies.
That same economic ability would apply in the case of the
railway. CN is now a losing operation. They could turn it around
and make it useful to the whole of the country.
(1835 )
Ms. Mary Clancy (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Citizenship and Immigration, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it sounds to
me as if my hon. colleague from Saskatchewan is talking about
privatization if necessary but not necessarily privatization.
We on this side do not think that the report chaired by the hon.
member for Kenora-Rainy River which followed nationwide
consultations was out of date. We think it was quite up to date. It
supported full commercialization of CN including participation
by employees.
A range of factors has been considered in the process of
commercializing CN, not the least of which is that the greatest
possible value for taxpayer should be generated in the process.
I think all members would agree that commercializing CN
must not impose restrictions on the company that would reduce
its value or its competitiveness. Ideally it should be placed on a
level playing field with its competitors and positioned to remain
a viable force in Canadian transportation, to the benefit of our
shipping community.
As the minister said, the sale of the government's equity will
constitute the largest share issue in Canadian history. Through a
public share offering the government, in seeking to generate the
greatest value for taxpayers and to provide all Canadians with an
opportunity to participate in this unique opportunity, wants to
ensure a broad shareholder distribution throughout the issue.
Farmers as well as all interested Canadians, perhaps even a
few people who live by the ports, will have an equal opportunity
to invest in CN.
[Translation]
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez (Bourassa, BQ): Mr. Speaker, on May 3,
I questioned the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration about
the denial of visitors' visas to three Algerian actors, M'Hamed
Benguettaf, Ziani-Chérif Ayad and Masrah El-Kalâa, by the
Canadian embassy in Paris. They had been invited by the
organizers of the Theatre Festival of the Americas, which will
be held in Montreal in two weeks. Their play deals with the rise
of fundamentalism in Algeria.
The minister has refused to intervene in this matter. He did so,
however, in the almost identical case of Hafsa Zinaï Koudil, the
Algerian filmmaker, whose application was supported by the
Bloc Quebecois and by many organizations and personalities in
Quebec.
One criticism I must make to the minister is that his policy
and his decisions are often disjointed, inconsistent and unfair.
Moreover, I find it unacceptable for immigration officials to
demand Algerians provide written guarantee of their intention
not to seek political asylum once inside Canada before issuing a
simple visitor's visa.
I must point out that the vast majority of Algerians settle in
Quebec and integrate well as a community, making a valuable
contribution to Quebec society.
I would like to take advantage of this opportunity to pay
tribute to Club 2/3 of Montreal, an organization for international
co-operation, which recently celebrated its 25th anniversary.
This organization has funded many projects to assist the poor in
Africa, Asia and South America.
We must thank Club 2/3 for all of its work in this area and for
its decisive contribution to heightening the awareness of young
Quebecers to humanitarian aid and international solidarity.
A few Algerians have obtained refugee status in Canada. But
the new immigration tax that the federal government imposed
on February 28 prevented some of them from obtaining
permanent residence, because they could not raise the required
$975. In addition, the Department of Immigration refused to
lend them the money, despite the assurances of the minister that
this would not happen.
In such a context, these people who have been recognized as
refugees can neither become permanent residents nor bring their
families over, and that is inhumane.
I invite the minister and his government to be more open and
to be more sensitive to the tragedy in Algeria and to the situation
of people from that country who are seeking Canada's protection
and aid.
[English]
Ms. Mary Clancy (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Citizenship and Immigration, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, there are
times when I weep for the lack of understanding on the other
side.
As the hon. member knows, the Minister of Citizenship and
Immigration does not have the power or the authority under the
Immigration Act to overturn a visitor visa application. These
were individual visitor visa applications, judged on their
individual merits and on the basis of the information provided
by the applicants. It is the responsibility of the government to
facilitate the entry of genuine visitors to Canada.
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A visa officer is required by regulation to refuse a visitor visa
if he has reasonable grounds to believe the applicant will not
leave Canada when the visa expires. A visa officer is bound to
uphold Canadian law and to protect the interests of this country;
and well my honourable friend knows this.
An applicant who is refused may make a new application and
ask the visa officer to consider any new information they may
wish to present. I would remind the hon. member that this is
exactly what happened in the case involving the Algerian
filmmaker, Ms. Koudil, who made a reapplication after she was
invited to do so here in this House by both the minister and by
me. Lo and behold, when the new information came forward she
was admitted and went to the film festival.
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: Pursuant to Standing Order 38(5), the
motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been
adopted.
Accordingly, the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 2
p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 6.42 p.m.)