CONTENTS
Wednesday, March 13, 1996
Mr. Bernier (Mégantic-Compton-Stanstead) 641
Mr. Bernier (Mégantic-Compton-Stanstead) 641
Mrs. Brown (Calgary Southeast) 641
Mrs. Brown (Calgary Southeast) 642
Mr. Speaker (Lethbridge) 647
Mr. Leroux (Shefford) 665
Mr. Leroux (Shefford) 671
Mrs. Tremblay (Rimouski-Témiscouata) 673
Consideration resumed of motion and amendment 674
Amendment negatived on division: Yeas, 28;Nays, 183 674
Motion negatived on division: Yeas, 75;Nays, 138 676
635
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Wednesday, March 13, 1996
The House met at 2 p.m.
_______________
Prayers
_______________
The Speaker: As is our custom, we will now sing O Canada
which will be led by the hon. member for Pierrefonds-Dollard.
[Editor's Note: Whereupon members sang the national anthem.]
_____________________________________________
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[
English]
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Don Valley North, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I rise today to familiarize the House with my idea to twin
Canadian ridings with United States congressional districts.
Twinning Canadian ridings with United States congressional
districts would encourage the exchange of ideas and build channels
of communication between Canadian and U.S. legislators. The
twinning program would provide opportunities for politicians on
both sides to gain a better understanding of the problems facing
both nations.
One critical aspect of the twinning program is the initial
twinning process. I hope to elicit the support of my fellow
members of Parliament in determining the possible twinnings. I
would greatly appreciate their assistance with this process.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Gilles Bernier (Beauce, Ind.): Mr. Speaker, Canadian
banks are reporting enormous profits. Great. Shareholders are
happy. Banks pay taxes and so do their shareholders. The
government has also imposed a 12.5 per cent surtax on the banks.
So far, so good.
What I, however, find indecent, prohibitive, shocking, even
outrageous, are the interest rates charged by the banks on
consumers' credit card balances as well as their service charges on
banking transactions.
The government's role is to protect users from this kind of
shameless exploitation. Bankers should be called to order. This
calls for some serious reflection on the part of these powerful
bankers and the government.
* * *
[
English]
Mrs. Sharon Hayes (Port Moody-Coquitlam, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I rise today to challenge the government on its decision to
unconditionally spend $65 million on a health services research
fund.
I have heard from Canadians from coast to coast who are
incensed to learn of the existing Health Canada research funding
priorities or lack thereof. For instance in 1994-95 the federal
government spent some $43.4 million on the AIDS strategy, yet in
the same year it spent a mere $4 million for breast cancer.
All illness traumatizes individuals and families and all death is
tragic. However, a total of 10,700 HIV cases with 7,400 deaths
since 1980 does nothing to answer to the feeling of abandonment in
1995 alone of the almost 18,000 families affected by breast cancer
or the 5,400 who buried their loved ones on account of this
epidemic disease.
Clearly this government has demonstrated no supportable
criteria for the allocation of precious health care and research
resources. How can we trust it with a new arm's length research
sinkhole of precious tax dollars?
* * *
Mr. Len Taylor (The Battlefords-Meadow Lake, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, Canadians are starting to understand the failures of the
completely unaccountable free market economic system.
Statistics Canada released the results of a study yesterday
showing that most of the jobs being created in Canada are low wage
often temporary service sector jobs which are demoralizing the
636
people who must rely on them for their family incomes. This
comes at a time when the corporate and government sectors are
also downsizing and laying off reasonably well paid long term
employees despite their recording of large corporate profits.
The work world is changing dramatically and it is obvious the
federal government is pushing the negative aspects of that trend.
New Democrats believe that corporations must be accountable.
That is why we support the implementation of a new Canadian code
of corporate citizenship.
We call on the government to stop apologizing for their friends
in the banks and instead ask them to take some of the responsibility
for the long term healthy future of the Canadian economy.
* * *
[Translation]
Mr. Jean Landry (Lotbinière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am
extremely pleased to salute my riding's local investment
association for employment development, which is doing a
remarkable job in co-operation with the Lotbinière economic
development corporation and the regional county municipality of
Lotbinière.
The Lotbinière investment association is very profitable and
helpful; by approving 11 applications for a total amount of
$495,000-in venture capital, I might add-it has helped maintain
132 jobs and create 73 new ones. In total, 205 jobs were directly
affected in my riding of Lotbinière.
To the investment association and the regional county
municipality of Lotbinière, I say: ``Well done!''
* * *
[
English]
Mr. Andy Mitchell (Parry Sound-Muskoka, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I rise today to recognize the achievements of a former
long serving member of this House. Mr. Stan Darling who served
for over 20 years as the member of Parliament in my riding of
Parry Sound-Muskoka is not only an accomplished politician, he
is now an author as well.
Despite our political differences, I consider Stan a true statesman
and a good friend. He is a generous man and that generosity
extends to his most recent project with all the profits from the
writing of his memoirs being donated to charity.
I congratulate Stan Darling and wish him well as he continues to
tell his political tales. Stan Darling, who is visiting with us today in
Ottawa, has distinguished himself as a hardworking servant of the
people. I salute you Stan.
The Speaker: Colleagues, I would remind all of you that I will
be giving a reception for our former colleague in my chambers this
afternoon at 5 p.m.
* * *
Mr. John Maloney (Erie, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, today is the last
day of National Farm Safety Week.
Farming can be a hazardous occupation. The farm is not only a
home but an industrial work site. It has been estimated that 200
people die every year in farm related accidents. Children are
especially at risk, with reports indicating that approximately 20 per
cent of farm fatalities are youth under the age of 14.
(1405)
There is no other occupation in Canada where children live on an
industrial work site. This makes farm safety a very important issue
and something every farm family must work to improve. Farm
safety is an important issue that warrants more attention.
I applaud the efforts of the Canadian Coalition for Agricultural
Safety and Rural Health, which includes organizations such as
Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada and the Canadian Federation of
Agriculture, to educate the public and to address the serious
problems of accidental death and injuries suffered by farmers and
their families.
I encourage our farming sector to make a determined effort to
eradicate dangerous environments on their lands. Let us all work
together to eliminate farm tragedies in 1996 and into the future.
* * *
Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur (Lambton-Middlesex, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, Farm Safety Week is being observed Canada wide from
March 7 to 13. The 1996 theme is child safety.
The Farm Safety Association has announced that farm related
fatalities were down by 21 per cent in 1995. Still, 19 people were
killed on Ontario farms during the course of farm work. Of the 19
individuals killed, two were children under the age of 15.
A safety project last year promoted safety among rural children
and their families. Parents were reminded that agriculture is the
only industry where the home is also an industrial work site, thus
placing farm children at an increased risk of injury. I have always
lived on a farm and as the member representing the largely
agricultural riding of Lambton-Middlesex I know how vitally
important farm safety is.
My congratulations to the Farm Safety Association and the 100
agricultural commodity groups and others who have become
partners in this very successful project.
637
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
Junior Women's World Curling Championships are being held this
week in Red Deer, Alberta. I am pleased to say that the team
representing Canada curls out of the Grande Prairie Curling Club
which is in my riding. The Peace River country has many avid
curlers and many teams have competed in national finals.
The Heather Godberson rink joins a long list of accomplished
curlers from this region. The team is curling well and at last report
is tied for first place. I would like to congratulate the skip, Heather
Godberson; third, Carmen Whyte; second, Kristie Moore; lead,
Terelyn Bloor; and spare, Rona McGregor on their performance so
far.
Curling has played an important role in Canada's culture and
heritage. Hundreds of thousands of Canadians enjoy this roaring
game.
I wish the members of the Grande Prairie curling team the best
of luck in their quest to be the next world champions.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, as part of
the organization process of the Standing Committee on Justice and
Legal Affairs, the hon. member for Windsor-St. Clair was elected
as chairperson while the hon. member for Burlington and the hon.
member for Saint-Hubert were elected as vice-chairpersons. I think
that this is the first time in our history that three ladies have been
appointed to the executive of a House of Commons committee.
Aside from their undeniable talents and skills, what made this
selection by the justice committee possible is the fact that these
women ran in nomination conventions to begin with, that they had
their supporters behind them and that they won the trust of the
electorate.
Consequently, their election to the executive of the justice
committee was the result of successive decisions made by the
people and recognizes the fact that men and women make
fundamentally equal and complementary contributions to modern
society. May this recognition intensify.
* * *
[
English]
Mrs. Dianne Brushett (Cumberland-Colchester, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, today I would like to welcome the First Baptist Girls
Choir from Truro, Nova Scotia to this honourable House. This
young choir is an ecumenical group comprised of secondary school
girls.
Under the able directorship of Jeff Joudrey, this choir has
performed internationally both in Europe and in the United States
winning awards of very high acclaim.
During the March break the choir is touring Quebec, Ontario and
New Brunswick. I am very pleased that they can enjoy a visit to
Parliament Hill today.
Through their music and message of song, these young
Canadians are excellent ambassadors for this great country.
I offer my congratulations to the First Baptist Girls Choir of
Truro. I invite all members of the House to meet these girls at a
reception in the Commonwealth room immediately following
question period.
* * *
(1410 )
Mr. Jesse Flis (Parkdale-High Park, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is
with great sadness that I offer the sympathy and condolences of the
government and the people of Canada to the families and friends of
the 16 school children and their teacher who were killed in
Dunblane, Scotland today. The sudden death of so many children
and their teacher strikes the sensibility of all Canadians.
We trust those wounded in this attack will recover completely
from their physical wounds. We pray that the psychological scars
of the wounded and the children at Dunblane School will be healed.
We share the shock and horror of the people of Dunblane and the
whole country at this cruel and wanton act.
Earlier today, Canadian High Commissioner Royce Frith sent the
following message on behalf of Canada:
May I express on my own behalf and on behalf of my compatriots, our most
profound shock at the horrible events in Dunblane this morning.
Our hearts and warm sympathies go out to the families of those killed and our
thoughts and prayers to those injured and their families.
No words are adequate but we hope they and our continuing sympathies will
be of some comfort to them during this very time.
* * *
Mr. Ted McWhinney (Vancouver Quadra, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
missile tests by the People's Republic of China in the straits of
Taiwan fall athwart recognized international air corridors used by
Canadian Airlines, Air Canada and commercial airlines of other
states. These air corridors are established under the ultimate
638
authority of the United Nations specialized agency, the
International Civil Aviation Organization.
We should bring to the urgent attention of the governing council
of ICAO this interference with the freedom of the air and the
danger to the lives of innocent civilian passengers. We should also
ask for appropriate sanctions or control measures to be taken within
the Chicago Convention of 1944.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. René Canuel (Matapédia-Matane, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday in Amqui, more than 4,500 people demonstrated against
the new employment insurance. Back home, we call it destitution
insurance.
In light of the contemptuous and insulting remarks made by the
Minister of Human Resources Development regarding union
leaders in particular, the people of my riding have every reason to
be concerned. Such remarks make us fear for the future.
These demonstrators are not seeking minor reforms. They are
rightfully calling for the withdrawal of this bill, no more, no less. A
bill which-may I remind you-is unfair and regressive and which
creates unemployment and poverty.
You can rest assured, Mr. Speaker, that all Bloc members support
the unemployed who are only asking for their fair share.
* * *
[
English]
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, today is the
anniversary of a most significant event in Canadian history. It was
on this date in 1989 that the citizens of Beaver River decided there
was an alternative to the politics of cynical pragmatism, of winning
at all costs, of special interests and backroom deals choking out the
national interest. They voted for someone to speak for them, not to
them; for a platform of fiscal responsibility and deficit reduction;
for democratic reforms to make members of Parliament
accountable to their constituents; for fairness and common sense in
government.
Yes, seven years ago today the residents of Beaver River used the
opportunity of a byelection to send a clear message to Ottawa.
They elected the first Reformer to the House of Commons and
thereby set off an avalanche of democratic and fiscal reform which
cannot be stopped.
In a few days the voters in six ridings can make their mark by
sending the same common sense message to Ottawa. The message
is the same now as seven-
The Speaker: The hon. member for Timmins-Chapleau.
* * *
Mr. Peter Thalheimer (Timmins-Chapleau, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the mining industry is very important to Canada's
economy, particularly to northern Ontario. Allow me a minute to
give an example.
Falconbridge Limited recently announced it will upgrade its
smelter in Sudbury over the next two years. It may not sound like
much but consider this: this project will create 200 jobs during
construction and millions of dollars will be pumped into the
northern economy.
The smelter is being upgraded to process ore being shipped from
the Raglan project. Falconbridge is investing more than $400
million in the Raglan mine in northern Quebec which should last at
least 25 years.
(1415 )
I ask members to consider the jobs, the social benefits and the
economic contributions just one mine can make to Canada. I
encourage the government and all members to support the mining
industry in Canada.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac-Gatineau-Labelle, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, the PQ premier invited prominent people representing
Quebec's English speaking community to an important meeting
that took place in Montreal on Monday evening.
The event was really meant to be an opportunity for the new PQ
leader to rebuild bridges with Quebec's English speaking
community, following the unfortunate comments made by his
predecessor on the evening of October 30.
We salute Mr. Bouchard's initiative, which shows a willingness
to get closer to an important community in Quebec and to
co-operate with it. However, like the majority of the participants in
that meeting, we deplore the fact that the PQ leader stubbornly
wants to pursue, even against the will of the people, his objective of
separating Quebec from the rest of Canada.
If he sincerely wants to get Quebec's economy back on track and
improve public finances, the PQ leader must set aside the main
obstacle to his province's economic well-being, namely his plan for
separation.
>
639
639
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[
Translation]
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, yesterday
in this House the Minister of Human Resources Development
continued full steam ahead with his attack against not only those
demonstrating against his planned cuts to unemployment
insurance, but the labour leaders as well, who are also protesting
these unacceptable measures the government wishes to implement.
Does the Minister of Human Resources Development still
believe today that the 4,500 people in Amqui who demonstrated
against his planned unemployment insurance cuts are professional
agitators?
The Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has the floor.
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Minister of Human Resources Development has nothing more to
say here in this House than he has to say to Canada's unemployed.
The minister wants people to have confidence in him, because it
appears a consultation process is going to be starting up on the
planned unemployment insurance reform. What can the public
expect from a consultation which starts off with confrontations
between the minister and the key witnesses who will be called
before the commission?
Hon. Douglas Young (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is important to treat such a
problematical matter seriously. I can assure the Leader of the
Opposition that, in the consultations to be held with the
parliamentary committee, we will be consulting many more
people, taking care to listen, to evaluate what they have to say.
There will be a greater number of people consulted on bill C-12
than there were involved in selecting the Leader of the Opposition.
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
minister is talking about something he knows nothing about, since
obviously he will never be selected leader of his party. Instead of
being concerned about the Leader of the Opposition, he ought to be
concerned about the unemployed, for whom he is responsible.
The minister is announcing major amendments to his bill. It
would appear that his mind is already made up, yet he is talking
about consultations. Will he finally admit that his intention to cut
benefits to all Canadian unemployed persons is indeed already
finalized and his decisions have already been secretly included in
the Minister of Finance's calculations?
Hon. Douglas Young (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it would be to the Leader of the
Opposition's advantage to allow the critic, who handles these
issues so ably, to continue to work toward the improvements we
wish to see made to Bill C-12. That hon. member knows what she is
talking about, at least.
What is going on here today? The Leader of the Opposition is
telling us that our minds are already made up.
(1420)
Since Parliament reconvened, I have been explaining in this
House that the parliamentary process requires the committee to
examine the bill in question, and I am confident that members of all
parties will have valuable suggestions to make. We have not
decided on one solution in preference to another, except that we do
wish all changes made to Bill C-12 as tabled to be equitable and in
line with the commitments made by the Minister of Finance in last
year's budget.
Mr. Loubier: My foot.
Mr. Young: And as for this ``baveux'', this member of the Bloc
Quebecois-
Some hon. members: Oh, Oh.
The Speaker: My dear colleagues, we know today is
Wednesday. I would ask all of you to choose your words very
carefully. The hon. member for Mercier has the floor.
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, allow me
to express my regret that this minister, whose responsibilities
include co-operation, working with other parties, clearly went off
the rails yesterday and again today, and this time with a member of
Parliament.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Mrs. Lalonde: The Minister of Human Resources Development
has up to now shown no intention of withdrawing his bill on
unemployment insurance. Instead of reassuring Canadians and
Quebecers, who are worried about their situation, the minister is
poisoning an already explosive debate.
If the minister refuses to withdraw his bill, is he prepared, as of
today, to reassure Canadians and Quebecers by informing them of
the changes he proposes to make to his bill?
Hon. Douglas Young (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I think all members who have
looked at the issue realize the extent of the concerns raised by a
whole lot of people pretty much throughout the country. I think it
would be irresponsible of me to impose more work on the
committee, which, only a few days ago, got the job of looking over
the bill and expressing its opinion. I remind you that all political
parties are represented on the committee.
640
I think it would be inappropriate for me to say: ``We are going
to propose this and that amendment on top of Bill C-12'', before
I even hear what the parliamentary delegation on the committee
has to say. In the coming days, when we have heard the witnesses
who are to appear before the committee, I hope that we will hear
the member's suggestions for amending the bill. She is right, we
do not intend to withdraw the bill, but we do intend to amend it
to meet the needs of people with legitimate concerns.
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, to the
many demonstrators, the minister says: ``We will reform''. We ask
him to specify the reforms, and he says: ``I am waiting to see the
committee''. He cannot mock people.
Is the minister prepared today or in committee tomorrow to state
exactly what amendments he plans to make to his bill?
(1425)
Hon. Douglas Young (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, a whole series of people are
supposed to appear before the committee. Dozens, if not hundreds
of individuals and groups have asked to come and testify before the
parliamentary committee.
I hope, with time, the committee will invite me too to come and
do it a bit of a favour by explaining the implications of certain
proposals by organizations or members of Parliament.
I do not think we should just leave the impression that it is going
to take two, three or four months before we get to solutions,
because I am sure the committee, given that its work has already
begun, will submit suggestions for the government's consideration,
and we will come up with final proposals. I hope this will happen
within the next few weeks.
* * *
[
English]
Mr. Preston Manning (Calgary Southwest, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, after making inflated promises of jobs, jobs, jobs in the
last election, the Liberal government has finally realized that it is
the private sector that is going to create the majority of those jobs.
The unemployed need more than words. The only practical way
to unleash the job creating power of the private sector on the scale
that is required is through genuine tax relief. Yesterday the
Minister of Finance ruled out all hope of that happening.
What is the hope for long term private sector job creation when
the government has ruled out tax relief until the next millennium?
Hon. Douglas Peters (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member
should look at the most recent statistics. They indicate that in the
last three months over 140,000 jobs have been created. Those are in
the private sector almost entirely and almost entirely full time jobs.
The hon. member would do well to look at the numbers before he
asks his question.
Mr. Preston Manning (Calgary Southwest, Ref.): The
numbers that we are looking at, Mr. Speaker, are 1.4 million
unemployed and 2.5 million under employed. That is the statistic
he ought to look at.
Perhaps it is just as well that the minister did not answer my
question about tax relief because who would believe anything the
government said on that subject. Why would Canadians believe
that the Liberals had any intention of leaving more money in the
hands of taxpayers when they deliberately broke their promise to
scrap, abolish and kill the GST?
The government has lost its believability on the subject of tax
reform and that diminishes the stimulative effect that promised tax
reform could have.
What is the hope for tax relief that will stimulate consumer and
business confidence when the government has broken its one and
only major promise on tax reform?
Hon. Douglas Peters (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would have been
disappointed if I had not been asked about the GST today. The hon.
member is trying to make question period the most boring 45
minutes in the House.
Let me deal with the question of the GST and the supposed
questions that he raises. I would like to suggest to the hon. member
that our commitment is clearly to harmonize. I realize harmony is
not something that the Reform Party has.
I suggest that he read his own party's addendum to the finance
committee report on the GST, in which the Reform Party said: ``We
commend the government on its attempt to harmonize the tax with
the provinces. As the Reform Party concurs with the majority of
those who said that a substantial simplification would result from a
wide ranging broadening of the tax base, we support the lowest
possible rate on the broadest possible base until major tax reform
takes place''.
That was the Reform Party's position.
(1430 )
Mr. Preston Manning (Calgary Southwest, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, if there is boredom in question period it is because of the
quality of the answers, not the quality of the questions.
The government promises hope. Where is the hope for
consumers and families when the finance minister has ruled out
any
641
prospect of tax relief until the next millennium? In the last seven
years Canadians have seen the disposable incomes of families go
down but the revenues of the federal government go up by over $20
billion.
What hope is there for income stability? What hope is there for
tax relief? What hope is there for long term job creation as long as
government tax revenues increase while the disposable incomes of
Canadians decrease?
Hon. Douglas Peters (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the policies of this
Liberal government are the best hope for Canadians. We have set
and met the targets on the deficit. We have gotten the deficit down
and it is still falling to the point where the books will eventually be
balanced. The policies of the Liberal government are the best hope
that Canadians have for job creation and improvement in their
lives.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Maurice Bernier (Mégantic-Compton-Stanstead,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Revenue.
A number of organizations defending the rights of the disabled
have for months been receiving so many complaints regarding
Revenue Canada that they have recently decided to sound the
alarm. Revenue Canada seems to have an increasingly narrow
definition of what constitutes a disability, thus managing to limit
access to the disability tax credit.
Can the minister confirm for us that the directives issued by her
government regarding the disability tax credit have resulted in a
tightening of the eligibility criteria?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of National Revenue, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I draw to the attention of the House the very good work
that the advocates on behalf of disabled Canadians did in
responding to the prebudget work of the finance committee.
Because of this work, the Minister of Finance included in this
year's budget a paragraph that stated the government would look at
the support systems and programs to ensure they responded to the
modern needs of disabled Canadians.
Specifically in response to the disability tax credit, not only has
this member drawn it to my attention but many of my caucus
members have as well. I have asked my department to do four
specific things. First, to ensure that Canadians have the
understanding and education they need to understand this credit.
Second, to ensure that we review it in a very effective way.
Some hon. members: Order, order.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: I think you will have another kick at the can.
[Translation]
Mr. Maurice Bernier (Mégantic-Compton-Stanstead,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, since the minister admits that more restrictive
directives have been issued that are in effect at odds with the report
by the Committee on Human Rights and the Status of Persons with
Disabilities, a report tabled in this House and signed by all Liberal
members, I would like to remind the minister that in this report she
is asked to reconsider this restrictive interpretation for the years up
to and including 1995.
Will the minister abandon this restrictive interpretation?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of National Revenue, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the definition of persons with disabilities has been
expanded for the sake of this credit. We know there are those who
have been audited. We have asked every tax centre across the
country to look at individual cases and to treat them with fairness
and understanding should difficulties of hardship arise in
individual cases.
(1435 )
We are not without compassion but we have to ensure that the tax
base is fair and is full of integrity.
* * *
Mrs. Jan Brown (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, on
October 18, 1993 the Prime Minister stated: ``The Liberal Party is
committed to maintaining old age security''.
Last week in the budget the finance minister killed OAS. The
Prime Minister made a campaign promise to seniors in 1993 that he
knew he would break by attacking their pensions as he has.
Why did the Prime Minister falsely raise the hopes of seniors
that he would protect them when he was shamelessly planning to
kill OAS as quickly as possible?
Hon. Douglas Young (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member would agree
that prior to the budget and prior to statements by the Prime
Minister, a lot of senior citizens in the country were extremely
concerned because a number of comments and studies indicated
that the entire program was in great difficulty.
642
The Prime Minister's undertaking was to ensure that no one who
was presently benefiting from OAS-GIS would be affected by the
changes. He made that commitment in this place and elsewhere.
I am sure the hon. member will agree that when the Minister of
Finance brought in his budget, not only did he honour the
commitment made by the Prime Minister, but he extended that
commitment by making sure that no one who was 60 on January 1
of this year was going to be affected by any changes.
I am sure that most senior citizens appreciate the hon. member
joining them and applauding the fact that the government has now
predictability and sustainability in what was formerly the OAS-GIS
which is now the combined seniors benefit.
Mrs. Jan Brown (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, let us
look a little more closely at this issue. The Liberal government
does not appear to care about the retirement security of seniors
despite the response of the hon. member.
Not only did it kill OAS but it also attacked seniors by dropping
the age limit for RRSPs from 71 to 69. Finance officials have
confirmed that this attack on our seniors' pensions will generate
billions of dollars in tax revenue for the Liberals.
This Liberal government is playing petty politics with the
retirement security of our seniors. Our seniors fought in wars to
make our country great.
Why will the finance minister not keep is money grubbing, neck
throttling, tax grabbing hands off our RRSPs?
Hon. Douglas Young (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that the hon.
member feels very strongly about this.
She has to come to grips with the real choices that face
Canadians every day and also face the government and that is to
make a choice between trying to maintain programs and systems in
place to assist those who are most vulnerable in our society and
recognize that people who are somewhat better off often recognize
their obligations of having to make significant contributions.
The true test of the changes that were announced by the Minister
of Finance in his budget comes when you look at the reaction of
senior citizens around the country. No one could possibly
contemplate continuing a system where there was uncertainty,
where people actually could not prepare to plan for their futures.
The results of testing show the reaction from senior citizen's
groups around the country. People do have confidence that when
they retire there will be a program in place. Those who are already
retired and those who are within five years of being 65 years of age
also have certainty.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport-Montmorency-Orléans,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National
Revenue. In his November 1994 report, the Auditor General of
Canada deplored Revenue Canada's inefficiency in collecting
unpaid taxes. As of May 31, 1995, more than a year and a half after
this report was released, there were still $6.4 billion in unpaid
taxes, a reduction of less than 5 per cent compared to the year
before.
How can the minister justify the fact that 400,000 high income
taxpayers still owe the government more than $6 billion in unpaid
taxes?
(1440)
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of National Revenue, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Department of National Revenue has a very good
record when it comes to collecting receivables.
We as a department have worked extremely hard, as I mentioned
yesterday, on the underground economy. We are focusing on
Canadians who are taxpayers. We need to have those moneys in our
coffers.
We have a good record and we will continue with that record.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport-Montmorency-Orléans,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, I would like to know what the minister intends
to do, in concrete-I repeat concrete-terms, to collect these
unpaid taxes, to ensure that the most disadvantaged in our society
will not pay once again for the government's inaction?
[English]
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of National Revenue, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, if the hon. member had read our budget or listened to the
Minister of Finance he would know that in a very concrete way we
have addressed this issue. Fifty million dollars will be coming into
the Department of National Revenue to help us audit in a more
extensive way those sectors of the economy at risk to the
underground economy.
* * *
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
budget offered absolutely no hope for the 1.4 million unemployed
Canadians, not to mention the 2.5 million under employed and all
the rest of the people who are so concerned about losing their jobs.
643
The government campaigned on the promise that it would create
jobs, jobs, jobs. Why has it not improved on its disgraceful record
of job creation? Sixty-five thousand jobs over the last year for 1.4
million unemployed Canadians is disgraceful. Why has it not met
its promises?
Hon. Douglas Peters (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member
should look at the statistics again.
Since the government came to power over 500,000 new jobs
have been created. They are permanent jobs and they are in the
private sector.
There was a problem last year. The world economy did slow and
there was less job creation than we wanted. However, as I
mentioned earlier to the leader of the Reform Party, in the last three
months we have seen a strong growth in job creation, and the
budget will ensure that continues.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, those
words mean nothing to people concerned about their future. People
are very concerned about the lack of job growth and the slowness of
the economy.
The government ran on the promise that it would create jobs.
They do not exist. Will the minister admit the real cause of
unemployment is that we do not have lower taxes and therefore we
do not have the type of job creation we need to give people some
hope that we will get out of this malaise?
The government ran on the promise of jobs, jobs, jobs. All the
government has given people is despair, despair, despair. When
will it meet its promise of creating jobs?
Hon. Douglas Peters (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is very interesting
that the Reform Party is suggesting tax cuts. That would only raise
the deficit. In the last two years all I have heard from the Reform
Party is that the deficit should be reduced. Now it is suggesting tax
cuts which would raise the deficit.
We have instituted a policy of rolling two-years targets and the
second part of that policy is meeting those targets. We have been
successful in doing so. We have three budgets down and we will
continue to meet those targets. That is the best way to create jobs.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mrs. Maud Debien (Laval East, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Acting Prime Minister. The federal government
recently announced its intention to establish a Canadian securities
commission. Meanwhile, provincial securities commissions are
currently putting in place a co-ordinating system, known as
electronic document analysis and retrieval, or SEDAR, to ensure a
true integration of financial markets. In that context, the Canadian
commission will very clearly be another useless and costly
example of overlap.
Given that the provinces' co-ordination work is already well
under way, will the minister finally recognize that this initiative is
totally unnecessary and that the federal government is more
interested in asserting its authority in an area that comes under
provincial jurisdiction than in promoting financial market
effectiveness?
(1445)
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on
the contrary, I personally had discussions with a number of
provincial officials who asked for the establishment of a unified
securities commission. The reason for this is simple: businessmen
who need to raise funds across the country do not want to have to
deal with 10 different securities commissions. They want to be able
to get the funds they need under a set of harmonized rules for the
whole country, since it is cheaper that way.
This is why it was proposed to create a Canadian securities
commission. If a province does not want to join up with the federal
securities commission, it is absolutely free to do so. This is only a
proposal to create a partnership to serve Canadians better.
Mrs. Maud Debien (Laval East, BQ): Mr. Speaker, first, I want
to point out to the minister that while there are businessmen there
are also businesswomen.
Second, I asked a question to the minister concerning SEDAR.
Obviously, the minister is not aware of the existence of that system,
which is a co-ordination instrument being set up by the various
provincial securities commissions. This comes as no surprise,
considering that effectiveness and harmonization are not
synonymous with federalism and centralization.
Since the provinces have clearly taken the initiative to meet a
real need, will the minister stop once and for all trying to take
control of everything and accusing the provinces of being
ineffective?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
nobody is accusing anyone of being ineffeffective as regards the
securities sector. However, there are businesspeople who clearly
asked the federal government and their provincial government, in
order to promote job creation and more profitable investments, to
create a securities commission with a single set of rules for the
whole country.
Once again, the idea is not to impose anything, but to offer
Canadians the best possible service. Bloc members who put
Quebec's interests first should know when it is in their best
interests to have national standards that help Quebecers within
Canada to have better investments and to create jobs. Now is not
644
the time to have an ideology that prevents businesspeople from
creating jobs in Quebec.
* * *
[
English]
Mr. Alex Shepherd (Durham, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my question
is for the Minister of Finance.
Due to recent changes in the Canada-U.S. tax treaty over 81,000
Canadians who receive U.S. social security have witnessed
one-quarter of their benefits disappear at the hands of the IRS.
Many of these are low income seniors. Americans who receive
similar payments from Canada are allowed to seek a refund, but
this is denied Canadians.
What is the Minister of Finance doing to redress this inequity in
tax treatments of low income seniors?
Hon. Douglas Peters (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this is of interest to a
large number of Canadians. It is an issue that has been brought to
the attention of the Minister of Finance.
The background is that we updated our treaty with the U.S.
specifically to get rid of double taxation and also to let us recover
OAS going to high income seniors just as we do in Canada.
We have these taxation provisions in place with other countries
such as Germany, France and Austria. The large number of
Canadians receiving U.S. benefits makes this a very special case.
This is a concern to us and we have raised the issue with Canadian
and U.S. officials.
(1450 )
After this communication the Minister of Finance will be
speaking this week to his counterpart in the U.S., Mr. Rubin. I
anticipate that either I or the minister will keep the House informed
of the progress on this important issue.
* * *
Mr. Elwin Hermanson (Kindersley-Lloydminster, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, a growing number of prairie grain farmers want the
Canadian Wheat Board to be made more accountable and
transparent. This means the wheat board must be made to open its
books.
It is amazing that the Canadian Wheat Board remains exempt
from the scrutiny of the auditor general and so is closed to
Canadian farmers and the public.
When will the minister of agriculture open the books of the
Canadian Wheat Board and make it financially accountable to
farmers by having the auditor general do an audit of the board?
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Minister of Agriculture and
Agri-Food, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as the hon. gentleman knows, the
Canadian Wheat Board is already subject to an annual audit,
conducted by a very well known national accounting firm in
Canada, according to all national and international accounting
standards. On the issue of an annual audit, it is already
accomplished.
In terms of the general argument about opening the books, there
is a process under way right now in western Canada under the
jurisdiction of the western grain marketing panel that is looking at
a variety of complaints about our marketing system. A number of
arguments are being made before that panel with respect to
transparency and accountability. I hope we will receive some very
useful advice from the panel on how to improve accountability and
transparency through the operations of the Canadian Wheat Board.
I remind the hon. member the Canadian Wheat Board operates in
an intensely competitive international environment. I hope he
would apply the same standards to international grain companies
like Cargill, Continental and others that he would presume to apply
to the Canadian Wheat Board.
Mr. Elwin Hermanson (Kindersley-Lloydminster, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, it is interesting that the minister mentions the audit.
Deloitte & Touche does the audit. Deloitte & Touche has done an
independent review of the Canadian Wheat Board. I managed to get
hold of a copy.
It states there are deficiencies in the operations, management
structure and accountability to grain farmers of the Canadian
Wheat Board. It said its annual operational plans generally do not
exist and budgeting or forecasting of expenses does not exist.
These are a few of the problems mentioned in the report.
If the minister is so open and wants to co-operate in the process,
why has he kept the report a secret from the public? Can the
minister tell concerned grain farmers what the wheat board has
done to address the serious deficiencies stated in the Deloitte &
Touche study?
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Minister of Agriculture and
Agri-Food, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the kinds of concerns referred to
by the hon. gentleman in his question are among the very reasons
the western grain marketing panel is conducting work at present
across western Canada. As we speak, the panel is conducting a
series of public hearings in Winnipeg and it will go on to hold
hearings in Edmonton and in Regina. The process is entirely open,
entirely transparent.
If the hon. gentleman has more than just allegations and
accusations, if he has specific, constructive suggestions on how to
improve the marketing of western Canadian grain, I invite him to
put those ideas before the western grain marketing panel so that
they can be aired and reviewed in the proper forum.
645
[Translation]
Mr. François Langlois (Bellechasse, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the solicitor general. When CSIS was created,
RCMP officers who were integrated into CSIS retained their rights,
including the bilingualism bonus. However, after their integration,
the then director general of CSIS, acting as a separate employer,
abolished this bonus.
Is the government willing to restore, now and on a retroactive
basis, the bilingualism bonus for RCMP officers transferred to
CSIS?
Hon. Herb Gray (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons and Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I will take my hon. colleague's interesting question under
advisement and get back to him as quickly as possible.
Mr. François Langlois (Bellechasse, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in
making these inquiries, could the solicitor general also take into
consideration the fact that the current director general of CSIS is
willing to restore the bilingualism bonus, as long as the
government and Treasury Board provide him with sufficient funds
to do so?
(1455)
Hon. Herb Gray (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons and Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
again, I will make inquiries on this interesting matter and get back
to my hon. colleague as quickly as possible.
* * *
[
English]
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, last week we
heard an incredible admission from the justice minister. He said
there could be instances in which some first degree murderers
deserve an opportunity of parole after serving just 15 years of a life
term.
Can the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice please
give us an example of a murderer who deserves an opportunity of
parole after serving just 15 years of a life sentence? Should
Constable Todd Baylis' murderer get a hearing? Should Laurie
Boyd's killer get a hearing? Should the killers of Brenda
Fitzgerald, Darren Rosenfeldt, Leslie Mahaffy and Christine
French get a hearing? Would any of these murderers qualify in the
opinion of those in the justice department?
Hon. Herb Gray (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons and Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I understand my hon. friend's concerns but I remind him and the
House that the parole board is an independent semi-judicial body
that operates at arm's length from ministers and MPs. I do not see
how my hon. friend could reasonably expect us in the House to give
that type of information.
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, perhaps the
solicitor general should talk to the justice minister and suggest that
he not make these kinds of comments in the House if he is not
prepared to explain them. What is the purpose of making them if he
is not prepared to explain them to the House, to the people of
Canada and to the families of victims of these first degree
murderers?
The member for York South-Weston reintroduced a private
member's bill yesterday which would eliminate section 745 from
the Criminal Code. His former bill, Bill C-226, was buried for over
a year in committee.
Will the parliamentary secretary to the justice minister assure the
House there will be no interference with the agenda of the justice
committee and allow this bill to become law before August 12 of
this year when child serial killer Clifford Olson becomes eligible
for parole?
Hon. Herb Gray (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons and Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I remind the hon. member that it has been an important innovation
in parliamentary reform by the government that all private
members' business is treated on a free vote basis. Also, the
committees are masters of their own agendas.
I am glad the hon. member asked his question because it gives
me the opportunity to remind the House that the bill of the hon.
member for York South-Weston has been restored to the Order
Paper and sent back to the committee where it was before
prorogation. This is because of the initiative taken by this
government, again for the first time in Parliamentary history, to
restore private members' business after prorogation in exactly the
same way as has been done in the past only for government
business.
I also remind the House that the Reform Party totally opposed
the government's motion to allow the restoration of private
members' bills like that of the hon. member for York
South-Weston. If it had its way the bill of the hon. member for
York South-Weston would have been dead and buried forever but
we, the Liberals, prevented that.
* * *
Hon. Charles Caccia (Davenport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Health.
(1500 )
Science and technology is making giant strides in the area of
human reproductive technologies, leaving the public interest and
legislators well behind. Will the minister tell the House if and when
646
he intends to reply to the recommendations announced in
November 1993 by the Royal Commission on Reproductive
Technologies?
Hon. David Dingwall (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the hon. member asks a very substantive and important question.
The royal commission filed its report with the Government of
Canada. Over the last number of weeks we have been doing a fair
number of bilateral consultations with various groups.
It would be my intent, based upon the suggestions which have
been made by hon. members opposite as well as my colleague to
the right, that we would want to proceed with legislation. We would
like to table that legislation hopefully before the House recesses in
June.
The legislation we intend to table will be comprehensive. I will
be looking for guidance and advice from members of Parliament
from all political parties in terms of how we can effectuate the best
piece of legislation for the country as a whole.
Mr. Svend J. Robinson (Burnaby-Kingsway, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, my question is also for the Minister of Health.
Today the Canadian Health Coalition released a legal opinion
prepared by Dr. Bryan Schwartz concerning the impact of NAFTA
on Canada's medicare system.
In view of the serious differences between the U.S. and Canada
over this issue and in view of the March 31 deadline which is
quickly approaching, will the minister agree to meet urgently with
his provincial counterparts and health policy activists? Most
important, will he issue a clear interpretation that no part of
Canada's health care system will be opened up to U.S. for-profit
health corporations?
Hon. David Dingwall (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I am sure the hon. member is well aware there is a lot of legal
interpretation circulating with regard to this issue.
I want to assure him and the House there are no provisions of the
NAFTA agreement which will impact in terms of Canada's
medicare system. I want to assure the House that the Minister of
Foreign Affairs, the Minister for International Trade and I are
working co-operatively with one another to assure every Canadian
there will not be an attack by Americans or Mexicans as it relates to
the Canada health care system.
* * *
The Speaker: Colleagues, I would like to draw to your attention
the presence in the gallery of the Chairman of the Joint Committee
on the Irish Language, Mr. Dinny McGinley, and the
accompanying delegation.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier-Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, on a question of privilege. During question period, the
Minister of Human Resources used the expression ``baveux'' to
describe the member for Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot. We know one of
them at least, one of them is the member for
Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot.
Mr. Speaker, I contend that the expression is not parliamentary.
The word ``arrogant'' is considered unparliamentary. The use of
such words threatens the atmosphere in this House. With all due
respect, I contend that, in future, you should intervene immediately
and ask the member in question to withdraw the words to avoid
poisoning the situation.
If the expression were considered parliamentary, we would have
to conclude that it should be used in this House and that each side
of the House could use terms that are an affront to the intelligence
of remarks made here and tarnish people's image of
parliamentarians, even those who behave properly, unlike the
Minister of Human Resources Development, who has not,
unfortunately, behaved properly for far too long.
(1505)
The Speaker: My dear colleagues, it is true the word ``baveux''
was used in question period. In my opinion, as the Speaker, it was
not applied to a specific member.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: This is why I intervened. The word, I believe, is
unacceptable in circumstances such as these.
I would ask the hon. members on both sides of the House to stop
using such words, because, in my opinion, they are too strong for
the House of Commons. This is why I intervened. I hope a word
like this will not again be used in the House.
This is not a question of privilege, but perhaps a point of order.
However, since the minister was named, and he is here, perhaps he
could clarify the situation.
Hon. Douglas Young (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is true these words were
spoken in the House and I willingly admit that I used the
expression. However, I would also point out that I heard others use
it today, this afternoon, even. I agree entirely with the description
of the situation made by the House leader of the official opposition.
Mr. Speaker, I continue to agree with you that these words are
not appropriate in this House, particularly when they might be
claimed to have been applied to more than one person. That would
be disastrous.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
647
The Speaker: I think the word ``baveux'' will never again be
used in the House, and I will leave the situation as it stands. It
is over. Please do not use this word again.
Mr. Duceppe: Mr. Speaker, I would like things to be clear. Did
the minister withdraw his words? Let him say so clearly, and the
whole matter will be clarified. Could he say so while you are here?
Mr. Young: Mr. Speaker, I repeat, I agree totally with the whip
of the official opposition in the House and with the Speaker of the
House that the word ``baveux'' is unacceptable and must not be
used in this House.
The Speaker: So, he withdrew it. That is the end of it.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
_____________________________________________
647
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[
English]
Mr. Paul Zed (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in
both official languages, the government's response to seven
petitions presented during the first session.
* * *
(1510 )
Hon. Charles Caccia (Davenport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in
conformity with arrangements already made in the House and
referred to earlier by the solicitor general, I would like to
reintroduce a private members' bill on the subject of the
Endangered and Threatened Species Act, File No. 352119.
The Speaker: My colleague, I am informed that your request
should be on notice and it is not receivable today. I would invite the
hon. member to put it on the Notice Paper.
* * *
Mr. Ray Speaker (Lethbridge, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, with
reference to Beauchesne's, as I understand it a question of privilege
takes precedence in the House over other matters on the Order
Paper. We did allow question period to proceed because there was
an understanding that it would proceed. However, in terms of
proceeding with the other orders such as the ones we are dealing
with now, it would be out of order in that the question of privilege
does have precedence. I would appreciate your ruling on that, Mr.
Speaker.
The Speaker: The hon. member is correct in what his belief is.
Questions of privilege do take precedence. The reason I am going
through the routine business of the day now is that not only is it a
question of privilege, but it is the first item on the orders of the day.
It is for that reason I have decided to proceed in this manner. The
House will be seized with the matter not only as a point of privilege
but also as the first order of the day. That is why I decided to do this
first.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds-Dollard, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have the honour to present two petitions from people in
my riding and the adjacent area, concerning the excise tax on
gasoline.
[English]
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have
two petitions to present pursuant to Standing Order 36.
In the first petition the petitioners would like to draw to the
attention of the House that managing the family home and caring
for preschool children is an honourable profession which has not
been recognized for its value in our society.
The petitioners therefore pray and call upon Parliament to pursue
initiatives to eliminate tax discrimination against families who
decide to provide care in the home for preschool children, the
disabled, the chronically ill, and the aged.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
second petition is from Sarnia, Ontario.
The petitioners would like to bring to the attention of the House
that consumption of alcoholic beverages may cause health
problems or impair one's ability and specifically, that fetal alcohol
syndrome and other alcohol related birth defects are 100 per cent
preventable by avoiding alcohol consumption during pregnancy.
The petitioners therefore pray and call upon Parliament to enact
legislation to require health warning labels to be placed on the
containers of all alcoholic beverages.
Mr. Svend J. Robinson (Burnaby-Kingsway, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I have the honour to present two petitions today. The first
is signed by residents of Ottawa and Toronto.
648
It notes that acts of discrimination against lesbian, gay and
bisexual Canadians are an everyday reality in all regions of
Canada. This kind of discrimination is unacceptable in a country
known for its commitment to human rights, equality and dignity
for all citizens.
Lesbian, gay and bisexual citizens pay taxes, make contributions
to employee benefit plans and are entitled to the same rights and
responsibilities as other citizens. Therefore, the petitioners call
upon Parliament to act quickly to amend the Canadian Human
Rights Act to prohibit discrimination on the basis of sexual
orientation and to adopt all necessary measures to recognize the
full equality of same sex relationships in federal law.
Mr. Svend J. Robinson (Burnaby-Kingsway, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, the second petition draws to the attention of the House the
fact that the current Criminal Code denies people who are suffering
from terminal or irreversible and debilitating illness the right to
choose freely and voluntarily to end their lives with the assistance
of a physician.
(1515 )
Therefore, petitioners from across British Columbia call on
Parliament to amend the Criminal Code to ensure the right of all
Canadians to die with dignity by allowing people with terminal or
irreversible and debilitating illnesses the right to the assistance of a
physician in ending their lives at a time of their choice, subject to
strict safeguards to prevent abuse, and to ensure that the decision is
free, informed, competent and voluntary.
Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am here
to present some thousand names on the issue of puppy mills. Under
the present sentencing system only two years' prohibition from
owning an animal is given to those who are convicted of operating
a puppy mill.
The petitioners are asking the House of Commons to include in
the Criminal Code a sentencing provision prohibiting those who
operate puppy mills from owning or having custody and control of
an animal for a period of no less than 10 years.
Mr. Vic Althouse (Mackenzie, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I have a
petition sent in by constituents from Mistatim, Porcupine Plain,
Hudson Bay and Chelan. It notes that Canadians are paying about
52 per cent of the cost of a litre of gasoline at the pumps in the form
of taxes. Over the past 10 years excise taxes on gasoline have risen
566 per cent. They urge that Parliament not increase federal excise
taxes on gasoline in the future.
Hon. Charles Caccia (Davenport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is an
honour to present this petition on behalf of a number of citizens in
metro Toronto.
The petitioners urge the Government of Vietnam to immediately
and unconditionally release all persons who are detained for
peacefully expressing religious or political views. They urge the
Government of Vietnam to adhere to the standards set out in the
United Nations standard minimum rules for the treatment of
prisoners to ensure that ill-treatment or torture of prisoners is
abolished, and that adequate, and immediate medical treatment is
provided to all detainees; and to press the Vietnam government to
recognize the universal freedoms of speech, religion, assembly,
association and free press.
Mr. Janko
Peric
(Cambridge, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, today I have the privilege of
presenting to the House two petitions from concerned citizens in
my riding of Cambridge.
The first petition requests that the Government of Canada find
alternate means of stable funding for the Canadian Broadcasting
Corporation, other than the implementation of a communication
distribution tax.
Mr. Janko
Peric
(Cambridge, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the second petition, signed by
over 250 people, requests that the government amend the Criminal
Code to protect the rights of all unborn children.
* * *
Mr. Paul Zed (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I ask
that all questions be allowed to stand.
The Speaker: Shall the questions stand?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
* * *
The House resumed consideration of the motion.
Mr. Paul Zed (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
matter that has been raised in this motion is very serious and you
have ruled that it is sufficiently serious and it should be taken up
with priority over the other business of the House.
I believe this is an indication to the House by its Speaker that this
matter warrants a full investigation by the committee of the House
that normally considers such matters, the Standing Committee on
Procedure and House Affairs, which I have the honour to chair.
649
(1520 )
I want to assure hon. members that if this matter is referred to the
committee it will be taken very seriously. It will be given a high
priority and it will be dealt with in an orderly and equitable manner.
The House has on occasion dealt with matters of contempt in a
summary fashion, for instance, when the offence in question was
self-evident and without doubt, as in the case of a few years ago
when the incident occurred in full view of the entire House. The
usual practice, however, has been to ask a committee of the House,
without prejudice, to look into the matter, to report its findings to
the House and, if necessary, to recommend a course of action.
This motion does not follow the usual course. The essence of the
motion is to ask the Standing Committee on Procedure and House
Affairs to investigate the matter in question. This can be
accomplished only if the terms of reference that the House gives to
the committee are framed in a fair and equitable manner.
As I indicated in my brief remarks yesterday, the motion of
reference now before the House does not seem to meet those
criteria. In effect the motion sets out a series of conclusions and
then asks the committee to investigate the actions in question. Any
committee proceedings pursuant to such an order of reference
would be clearly prejudiced. A fair and equitable order of reference
would not dictate the conclusions of an investigation of a
committee, it would merely set out the issue that the House wishes
the committee to investigate.
To draw an analogy from the justice system, an individual is not
convicted first and given a trial later. Every individual is entitled to
a full and fair trial before any conclusions are reached.
If the motion restricted itself to that there would be no problem.
There would be no prejudice implied. Unfortunately, the motion
contains a great many prejudicial phrases which makes it
impossible for the committee to conduct fair hearings. Without any
investigation of the events surrounding the issue or of the law
concerning either sedition or contempt, the motion seeks to declare
individuals guilty of serious offences.
The motion does not charge these individuals with offences. It
declares them guilty without the benefit of deliberation. This, as all
hon. members know, is contrary to every principle of justice within
the Canadian system. Every citizen is entitled to a fair trial in
which the alleged offence is clearly defined and in which the
allegations are proved beyond a reasonable doubt.
The motion, as it is worded, makes a number of assertions that
may or may not be correct. It asks the House of Commons to accept
those assertions as fact without the benefit of investigation. The
motion declares that the alleged facts constitute serious breaches of
law. It asks the House of Commons to come to conclusions on
these laws without having the opportunity to consider the nature of
these laws and the jurisprudence surrounding them.
(1525)
I would suggest the proper course would be for the matter to be
referred to committee for examination without prejudice. The
committee could then proceed to a thorough examination of the law
and the jurisprudence surrounding sedition and contempt and
perhaps, more important, adduce the accurate and complete
evidence concerning the actual events in question. It could then
come to conclusions and report these to the House, along with any
appropriate actions.
It is at that time, and only at that time, that the House should then
be asked to make a definitive statement on the actions in question.
As I said, it is contrary to every principle of justice that is basic to
the system in Canada.
Mr. Speaker, your ruling is a strong indication to the House that
it ought to order an investigation of the matter. I believe that the
House is prepared to concur in your opinion. We do not, however,
believe that we can risk any committee of the House being
converted to some sort of kangaroo court. Any and all committee
proceedings on such matters ought to be fair and equitable.
In order to accomplish this, I move:
That the motion be amended by deleting before the word ``that'' and deleting
all the words after the word ``that'' and by substituting for those words, the
following:
-the matter of the communiqué of the member for Charlesbourg released on
October 26, 1995, with reference to members of the Canadian Armed Forces be
referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, a point of order.
I am shocked at the amendment today. It appears that the
government side is trying to completely gut the spirit of the motion
I brought forward yesterday.
The Speaker: Would the hon. member please be very specific
on what is the point of order. I would like him to proceed to it
forthwith.
Mr. Hart: Mr. Speaker, it appears that the government's
amendment guts, completely destroys and negates the motion I
brought forward yesterday. We went through the procedure
yesterday. I laid a charge and this totally takes away from the
process that the Speaker ruled on yesterday in the House of
Commons.
I would think that this was out of order.
The Speaker: I have the amendment in front of me now. In my
opinion, this amendment is procedurally in order and I am going to
allow it.
650
(1530)
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the action
taken by the Reform Party is extremely serious. I intend to prove
how serious this action is, especially as, in consideration of some
minor changes, it has gained the support of government members,
of Liberal members.
To make sure that everybody knows what we are talking about, I
believe we should read again part of the main motion before us.
That in the opinion of this House, this action by the Honourable Member for
Charlesbourg, and the then Leader of the Official Opposition should be viewed
as seditious and offensive to this House and constitutes a contempt of
Parliament; and consequently, the House refer the matter to the Standing
Committee on Procedure and House Affairs for examination.
To understand fully what is at stake, I took the trouble to check
how two of the most commonly used dictionaries defined the word
``sedition''. According to Webster's it is ``the stirring up of
discontent, resistance, or rebellion against the government in
power.''
This concept of sedition refers also to sections of the Criminal
Code because it is something extremely serious. Sections 59 to 62
of the Criminal Code give a more precise definition of what
sedition is, and I quote: ``Every one shall be presumed to have a
seditious intention who teaches or advocates, or publishes or
circulates any writing that advocates, the use, without the authority
of law, of force as a means of accomplishing a governmental
change within Canada.''
It remains to be seen whether the charge laid by the Reform
Party can be taken into consideration by this House in view of the
fact that not only it is obviously grossly overstated, but also it does
not refer to the action taken by my colleague, the member for
Charlesbourg.
As proof, we only need to go back to the communiqué which is
the object of the Reform Party's wrath. The fourth line of that text
reads as follows, and I quote:
-MP for Charlesbourg, Mr. Jean-Marc Jacob, put forward his position today
concerning the national defence policy of a sovereign Québec.
There is no deception whatsoever in that press release issued by
the MP for Charlesbourg. It states the position of the Bloc
Quebecois, a political party which is fully recognized, was
democratically elected to this House with the support of 50 per cent
of the Quebec population, and has some ideas on the eventual
organization of the department of defence and of the defence
system if sovereignty as it proposes it is ever accepted.
(1535)
In publishing that press release, the MP for Charlesbourg never
had any seditious, as the term says, intent of any kind. He did not
try to propose the use of force against established order, with a
view to overthrowing the government.
Someone deciding to commit a seditious action, to foment
rebellion, would not do so openly and publicly and would not send
a press release to all the journalists in the press gallery to explain
what a sovereign Quebec would do.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Gauthier: Mr. Speaker, this would be like signing his own
death warrant.
``Ladies and gentlemen of the press and of the television, I
hereby announce that our party intends to start a rebellion in
Canada''. It makes no sense. This is a public action taken by a
member of Parliament who, within the context of his duties,
explains the structure of the department of defence in a sovereign
Quebec.
Now everybody, all the members in this House, all the
journalists on Parliament Hill, everyone except maybe the reform
party members who have not yet understood it, everybody knows
that the main reason why Bloc Quebecois members were elected to
this House, their main political goal, is for Quebec to become a real
country as soon as possible.
Some people could say: ``Yes, but if we read a little further on in
the communiqué, the member for Charlesbourg wrote that Quebec
will need all the Quebecers who are currently in the military; he
added that Quebec will be part of NATO, that we share concerns for
democracy and for the respect of civil and human rights''. What
offence did the member for Charlesbourg commit? He announced
that we intended to respect our international responsibilities in the
defence area, and that in Quebec we respect human rights. Is he
guilty of sedition because he said that we would respect human
rights?
``The day after a yes win,'' he says, ``Quebec should
immediately create a Department of Defence, the embryo of a
major state, and offer Quebecers serving in the Canadian Forces the
chance to integrate into the Quebec Forces ``while keeping their
rank, seniority-'', etc.
It is also public knowledge-and the communiqué must be
interpreted in that light-that Quebec's plan to achieve sovereignty
will become a reality-it was announced throughout the
referendum campaign-after a yes win and a one-year period of
negotiations during which we will offer the rest of Canada a
partnership in an appropriate, responsible and honest way. And it is
only at the end of this process that Quebec's sovereignty will be
proclaimed and that Quebec will put in place its defence system, its
army and the whole structure of a real country. I repeat, after.
Is it reasonable to think that the hon. member for Charlesbourg is
guilty of high treason for announcing to all newspapers in Canada
that, after a yes vote in the referendum and a year of negotiations,
Quebec will give itself a defence policy? Is it treason to tell those
651
citizens who were asked to support our goal what the future will be
like in our new country? That, Mr. Speaker, is sheer nonsense.
The reality behind this motion is that, for Reform members in
this House, being a sovereignist is a crime. According to Reform
members, 50 per cent of Quebecers should be charged with treason,
since, as sovereignists, they want their own country.
(1540)
Mr. Speaker, I must point out that the reality behind this motion
is that, for over two years, the Reform Party has wanted to form the
official opposition but has been unable to earn this position. That is
its problem.
Reform members will have an opportunity, during the coming
by-elections, to become the official opposition if they wish. They
should behave like democrats. It is only by running in the ridings in
question and defeating the Bloc and Liberal candidates that they
can be taken seriously and have any hope of becoming the official
opposition. Not before.
Mr. Speaker, your ruling, which I deeply respect, calls for the
House to consider and vote on this motion. We in the official
opposition had felt and hoped that Liberal members, acting a little
more sensibly, logically and responsibly than third party members,
would fight this motion which does not make any sense and is
totally unfounded, which goes way beyond what the hon. member
for Charlesbourg has done and even infringes on the official
opposition's right of free speech.
Instead, they disguise the main proposal. It is hypocritical to try
to disguise a proposal like this one on the pretext that talking about
sedition is not quite politically correct, that it does not look good in
the Quebec ridings where those people have representatives. They
know very well what the people of Quebec would think of their
colleagues in every riding, because no one in Quebec, not even non
sovereignists, will ever tolerate that sovereignists be called traitors
and accused of sedition for making our goal known, a goal in which
we believe.
They know very well that they would be judged harshly in their
ridings. That is why they resorted to a totally, and I would say
obviously, artificial artifice. An unspeakable artifice. That is the
word I was looking for. They tried to do some window dressing by
saying: ``Let us refer the matter to the House committee. It will
examine the matter involving the member for Charlesbourg. We
will look at the press release like good children. We will assess the
situation. We will determine whether or not the member for
Charlesbourg is a traitor for speaking of sovereignty''. That is what
we are hearing from the across the floor.
Mr. Loubier: Shame. You should be ashamed.
Mr. Gauthier: Did you think for a moment that we would let the
parliamentary system deteriorate to the point where a colleague of
ours can be named in a parliamentary release without any
restriction, without any sort of protection? Did you think that we
would let our colleague stand trial without being afforded the
protection normally afforded to anyone who has dealings with the
law? Do you think that we will let a puppet court decide the case of
the hon. member for Charlesbourg, who is guilty of having made
our political vision known? Never.
I shall remind you, Mr. Speaker, and the hon. members opposite
that further thought needs to be given to this. To vote for the new
motion we have before us, which makes a few changes to the
motion put forward by the Reform Party, is to enter into a
dangerous partnership with the third party. Politically, the Liberal
Party of Canada will never recover from such act of infamy. In
Quebec, the people, including federalist Quebecers, will never
forget what federal Liberal members will have done. It is plain
unthinkable that we would go along with this kind of game.
The hon. member for Charlesbourg did his job as a member of
Parliament. The official opposition is doing its job in this
Parliament. We are looking after the interests of Quebec.
(1545)
We are publicizing our sovereignty plan, as we have been asked
to do by the other side of the House. The Prime Minister regularly
says to us: ``Tell the public about your plan''. Yes, we are telling
Quebecers about it. No, we have not finished publicizing it because
our presence here is designed to do precisely that. This plan that is
so dear to us and that we will soon, furthermore, succeed in
bringing about is our reason for existing.
There is not one member of the official opposition in this House
that would stand for it, if one of our colleagues were dragged
before a committee, without rules, with no protection whatsoever,
handed over to the Reformers, who would like nothing better than
to occupy our seats, handed over to the members of the Liberal
Party who could blindly take positions that are absolutely
unacceptable in the democratic system in which we operate.
Referring to committee the case of the member for Charlesbourg
and the press release in question would be to brand him guilty, in
advance, of sedition, without actually using that term, because it
would not fly in Quebec. It would allow the member for
Charlesbourg to fall victim to the ire of certain people who cannot
accept that a political plan such as ours is allowed to be expressed
freely in this country and in this Parliament.
It would be as if 50 per cent of Quebecers were dragged before
this committee without rules to defend themselves simply because
they have committed the crime of being sovereignists. Sixty per
cent of francophones in Quebec are represented by the member for
Charlesbourg, they think like he does and they want him to explain
to the members opposite that our political project makes sense.
652
Never will we accept that our colleague, the member for
Charlesbourg, be attacked by fellow parliamentarians before a
puppet committee, a puppet tribunal, simply because he took the
time to honestly explain our political project with the
parliamentary means at his disposal. Never will we accept that 50
per cent of Quebecers be dragged before this committee without
rules. Never will we accept that a fundamental right that
parliamentarians in this country have always enjoyed, namely the
right to express themselves and present their ideas even if the
government does not agree, be taken away from us.
To vote for this motion as amended by the government is
unacceptable because it is a direct infringement upon our right to
represent our constituents and to present our option with all the
implications it would have if Quebecers decided to have their own
country. We will never be able to vote for this motion because after
that, in this House, Liberals and Reformers alike will ask
sovereignists ``O.K., who is next?''. We do not accept that, and
Quebec does not accept it.
The Speaker: My colleagues, since the time allotted to the
Leader of the Opposition is unlimited, it is not followed by a
question and comment period. Resuming debate. The government
whip has the floor.
Mr. Don Boudria (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I just want to take a few minutes to indicate to the House
that some of the comments made by the Leader of the Opposition
are-to say the least-far removed from the facts before the
House.
Of course, we just heard him vent his feelings and his distress
and say some things which are far removed from the truth-and I
am being polite here. He argued, for instance-
Mr. Plamondon: Side with the Reform Party!
Mr. Boudria: Maybe if the member opposite were to listen, he
would finally learn something after all these years.
(1550)
It is the Speaker of the House, and not the hon. member for
Glengarry-Prescott-Russell, nor the government whip, nor the
parliamentary secretary, who has ruled that this is a prima facie
case of privilege. The issue was certainly not raised by the
government. As it turned out, it was raised by someone else, but the
fact remains that the House of Commons, through the Speaker, has
decided that this was a prima facie case of privilege.
So, this is where we are at, right now. It is up to all the members
of Parliament to ensure that the committee can do its job. And we
are not talking here about a puppet committee, or a committee
without rules, as the Leader of the Opposition put it. The leader of
the opposition said that we have no rules to guide us. There are the
Standing Orders of the House, Beauchesne, Bourinot, Erskine May,
I could go on and on.
Mr. Plamondon: Not forgetting the red book.
Mr. Boudria: There are library shelves chock full of books on
procedure to guide our deliberations in the House and in
committees.
The leader of the opposition's splitting himself in two in the
House to claim it is otherwise does not make it so. The inaccuracy
still remains. The members across the way are talking of voting
nay. There has not been a vote in this House as of this moment.
We are faced with a situation in which the Speaker has deemed
there was a prima facie question of privilege. This was followed by
a Speaker's decision to entertain a motion.
Mr. Bernier (Gaspé): Vote nay.
Mr. Boudria: The motion before this House is unacceptable as it
is improperly put.
Mr. Bellehumeur: Vote nay.
Mr. Plamondon: You vote nay.
Mr. Boudria: The hon. members across the way may continue
with their catcalls, but the facts remain the same. If the motion is
improperly drafted, it is the duty of this House to do things
properly.
Mr. Plamondon: Vote against it, do not amend it.
Mr. Boudria: What we have done in this House is to propose,
following on the ruling issued in this House by its Speaker, that it is
totally in order for a committee to consider the matter. My
colleague, seconded by myself, has therefore moved that the matter
of the hon. member for Charlesbourg be referred to the
parliamentary committee.
If the Reform members think-
The Speaker: Order, please. My dear colleagues, this is one of
the most serious debates we have had here in this House. We shall
all have the chance to speak here in the House. We are Canadians,
we are democratic, and you will all have an opportunity to speak.
[English]
I ask you to have the courtesy to hear out all members of
Parliament. This is a very important issue for all of us. As your
Speaker I ask you to respect one another in this debate and listen to
what is being said. Then you will make up your minds as
parliamentarians.
653
[Translation]
Mr. Boudria: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to take a few
minutes to conclude. We all have a duty to ensure that this
Parliament works well. There are no puppet committees. The
decision of the House to strike the Committee on Procedure and
House Affairs was a unanimous one.
This committee, which deals with procedure, privileges and
elections, was established by unanimous consent of the House.
Every member of this House knows that it is the role of this
committee to deal with such issues. It is wrong to now claim that
this is a puppet committee with no rules. It is absolutely wrong. To
make such a claim is also to insult this House. That is what it is.
This is not a puppet committee, and it will do its job. Too bad for
those who chose to make gratuitous accusations in their motion.
(1555)
We, on this side of the House, and certainly myself as a long time
parliamentarian, only want the committee to do its job, as it has
done on several occasions. Contrary to the claim made, this is not
unprecedented. I remember the Mackasey case. I remember other
cases that were referred to the same committee and a decision was
made. I even remember parliamentarians who chose to put their
case before the committee, in order to prove their innocence. How
can anyone say that this is a puppet committee? These are false
allegations. Members opposite know that. It is wrong for them to
now criticize in that fashion the existence of House committees
and, in doing so, that of our parliamentary institution, and they
know that.
Why did those across the floor who chose to make such
gratuitous accusations not draft the motion in proper form? Surely,
they must know how to do it. And if they do not, there are enough
lawyers and procedural experts in this place to help them, and they
surely could have consulted them. The same rule applies to them.
All we have to do is refer the case to the committee, without
making accusations, where it will be heard in an honest and
legitimate manner.
[English]
That is all we have to do. All the people across the way and those
making those kinds of gratuitous affirmations are no better. All we
have to do as Parliamentarians is do our jobs honestly in the House
and in the parliamentary committee. Then the issue will be clear
and hopefully the House will be stronger when it comes out of this.
However, it will not happen unless we all want to do the right thing.
Mr. Preston Manning (Calgary Southwest, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to add a calm voice to this discussion. I would
like to add it to those voices of hon. members who have been
urging the motion of privilege put by the member for
Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt be accepted as it is, not as
amended, and that the matter contained in the original motion be
referred to the standing committee.
It has been well established that the member for Charlesbourg, a
member of the defence committee of the House, released a
communiqué on letterhead of the office of the leader of the official
opposition of the House on October 26, 1995 before the referendum
in Quebec. It invited Quebec francophone members of the
Canadian Armed Forces to join the Quebec military in the event of
a yes vote in support of separation from Canada.
The original motion calls for recognition that in the opinion of
the House this action should be viewed as seditious, offensive and
in contempt of Parliament. I will argue in favour of retaining the
original wording. The government wants to water it down.
The issue is not whether the action by the member was foolish
and ill considered; obviously it was foolish and ill considered. If
the commission of foolish and ill considered actions from time to
time were to constitute contempt of Parliament very few of us
would escape its censure.
The issue is not whether the action by the member was offensive
to the public, although it undoubtedly is offensive to many
members of the public judging from the letters we have received,
including letters from my constituents. The issue is not even
whether the action of the member was seditious or traitorous in the
sense of sections 53, 59 or 62 of the Criminal Code, a subject on
which at least one Ontario court has partially ruled.
Rather, the issue is whether in the opinion of the House, a court
in its own right with respect to its own privileges, the action of the
member should be viewed as seditious and offensive.
I remind the government House leader these words were
carefully chosen. They have not been carefully read but they were
carefully chosen in the first place.
(1600)
As early as June 1994 I urged the Prime Minister publicly and
privately to spell out the terms and conditions which in the opinion
of the federal government ought to govern any attempt at
secession. I asked him to spell out the terms and conditions which
ought to govern any public order issues, such as those envisioned
by part II of the Criminal Code and the Emergencies Act. My fear
was that in the absence of such guidelines it would be left to the
sovereignists, those advocating the break-up of Canada, to define
what constituted acceptable and unacceptable behaviour in those
circumstances. That is exactly what happened.
The principal reason for allowing this motion to proceed in its
original form is not simply to determine whether a particular
member should be disciplined for actions offensive to this House
and to many Canadians. It is to permit this House to consider
through an examination by the Standing Committee on Procedure
and House Affairs. It is for the future guidance of all members in
terms of what constitutes acceptable or unacceptable conduct with
respect to urging members of the Canadian Armed Forces to pursue
654
a particular course of action in the event of an attempted secession
by a province or a part thereof.
Part II of our Criminal Code tends to define sedition using an old
wartime definition of sedition. It defines it narrowly as advocating
governmental change within Canada by the use of force or
violence. The Leader of the Opposition misses the entire point of
our motion by harping on that particular definition.
Proceeding with this motion will require the standing committee
to determine what should and should not be viewed as seditious in
the present opinion of this House in the context of a secession
attempt, something that the Criminal Code never envisioned, nor
did the court cases dealing with sedition in the past consider. For
example, it may well be that in the opinion of this House, under
present circumstances, advocating a change of government in
Canada by any unlawful means should be considered some form of
sedition and that the Criminal Code should be changed to reflect
that opinion. That could very well be one of the conclusions of the
standing committee.
The government by amending the motion seeks to avoid coming
to grips with the real issues raised by a secession attempt and the
participation of members of this House in that attempt. It seeks
again to avoid the realities of secession. That is precisely what it
did prior to the referendum and it was a profound mistake. It was a
strategic mistake. It allowed separatists to define what was
acceptable and unacceptable in the event of a yes vote. It created a
vacuum into which members like the member for Charlesbourg
wandered and were allowed to do whatever they pleased. That
same type of conduct will occur in the future if that vacuum is
allowed to remain.
Many Liberal backbenchers, to their credit, saw that mistake
more clearly than the advisers in the Prime Minister's office. Now
by supporting this motion they have a chance to correct it. The
House has a chance to correct it at least in relation to one small
dimension of the separation issue.
Supporting this motion in its original form would make a major
contribution to clarifying for all members what constitutes
acceptable or unacceptable conduct with respect to attempting to
influence the armed forces in the unusual constitutional
circumstances in which this country finds itself. Supporting the
motion in its original form contributes to the rule of law by
defining the rule of law in an area where it is unclear or does not
exist at all and contributes to peace, order and good government,
two purposes for which this House exists.
(1605 )
Mr. Paul Zed (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
would like to have a clarification from the hon. member as to
whether or not he appreciates the importance of having this matter
referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House
Affairs. I would like to get his view on the prejudicial aspects of the
preamble to the hon. member's motion.
We are really talking about the fundamental issues of Canadian
justice. Certainly as members of Parliament, which is from where
all our country's laws should come, we should be setting the first
example on justice. It strikes me that when we have a motion that
colours the rights of any member of the House prior to its going to
committee, we would be putting in jeopardy the deliberations of
the committee. It was for that reason the amendment was offered.
I would like to get a specific reply to my question on whether or
not there is a prejudice occurring.
Mr. Manning: Mr. Speaker, if this matter is to be investigated,
the charge has to be made in some way, shape or form so that the
committee knows what it is investigating, what it is endeavouring
to determine, what is true and what is not true. That is the reason
for that thrust.
A second thing should be said in response to the member's
intervention. His committee is not acting just like a court. This
Parliament not only interprets laws and can interpret laws in
committee, it also makes laws. In fact that is its primary function
and that is why the motion is worded the way it is.
If someone does what is alleged and it is established that they did
it or whatever the case is established, should that be viewed as
seditious? That is not a question a court can answer but it is a
question which Parliament and a committee can answer. If it should
be viewed as seditious, then this body has the capacity to change
the law and the definition of sedition. That is why the words
``should be viewed'' are included in the motion. To strike them
changes the whole nature of what we are endeavouring to do.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier-Montcalm, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, I am dismayed when I hear the member of the Reform
Party talk of sedition and of such a serious matter, as you said Mr.
Speaker, with practically no grounds. I think that the leader of the
Reform Party is a smart man and knows how to read communiqués.
I think he understands the news. I wonder why he is putting so
much time and energie into bringing this matter up in the House
today.
I think that, if one follows the news, one realizes-maybe this is
something people do not know-that this matter has already been
considered by a justice of the peace. A lawyer from Montreal was,
like the Reform Party, of the opinion that the member for
Charlesbourg had committed a crime of lese majesty and decided
to lay a complaint. A justice of the peace, a law professional, a
person who knows the law, who knows the Criminal Code, who
knows what he is talking about, has studied the communiqué, has
considered the facts at issue, and has rejected the complaint made
by the Montreal
655
lawyer. Furthermore, the same thing occurred in Ontario, and the
complaint was again rejected.
The member must be aware of that. Canadian legal experts, not
only from Montreal or Quebec, but also from Toronto, in Ontario,
determined that there was nothing wrong there. The communiqué
was even been described as a job offer.
(1610)
Today, some people feel the need to waste the time of the House,
to make members of Parliament waste their time on something as
ridiculous as this. There is no sedition. That is clear. I challenge the
member to find in the communiqué issued by the member for
Charlesbourg a call to violence or to threat to public order. Where
can he find, in the communiqué, an invitation or an incitement to
engage in some prohibited action? Where? Nowhere.
I challenge the member to find exactly where such things are to
be found in the communiqué. He will draw the same conclusion as
the justices of the peace and the legal experts: it is a job offer. The
member for Charlesbourg said that after a yes vote, those who are
in the army will be allowed to join the forces, or the Quebec army,
since Quebec will have an army, as any other self-respecting
country.
It is not a call to sedition or revolt to welcome people with open
arms while telling them: ``French and English speaking Quebecers,
join us''. Nowhere in the communiqué can such a distinction
between French and English speaking people be found. The
Reform Party members are the ones who are making that
distinction. They are the ones acting in this way.
Where, in the communiqué, is there a distinction between French
and English speaking people?
Mr. Landry: Nowhere.
Mr. Bellehumeur: These are other questions for which the
Reform Party member, who is, moreover, the leader of the third
party, will not be able to provide an answer.
[English]
Mr. Manning: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the member's
intervention. It gives us a chance to explain exactly what is going
on here. If the member had listened to my remarks he would have
heard what I said. I will repeat it slowly.
The issue here is not whether the action of the member was
seditious or traitorous in the sense of sections 53, 59 or 62 of the
Criminal Code, the sections cited in the two court cases the
member refers to, both of which I have read and a subject on which
two courts have partially ruled. That is not the question. We are not
answering the question as to whether the member urged sedition in
the sense of the Criminal Code with respect to the use of force or
violence to overthrow the government.
The actual motion is whether in the opinion of this House the
action of the member ``should be viewed'' as seditious and
offensive. If the committee were to determine that it should be
viewed as seditious that would require us to change the definition
of sedition. That is where Parliament is different from a court. A
court could come to the conclusion that this type of activity should
be regarded as some sort of sedition but the court could do nothing
about it. This Parliament can. That is why the words ``should be
viewed'' are essential to the motion and should be left there rather
than struck.
Members of the Bloc will not believe this but it is important to
get it on the record. Getting these guidelines clear as to what is
acceptable and unacceptable is as much for their protection and for
the protection of their province as it is for anyone else. I am afraid
that if these things are not answered then that is when accidents
will happen. People will do ad hoc things that will be destructive to
the interests of Quebec and Canada, things we have not even
envisioned. We all have a vested interest, whether or not we agree
in exactly what is acceptable or unacceptable in this circumstance,
in spelling it out in law if that is at all possible.
[Translation]
Mr. Ghislain Lebel (Chambly, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I listened to
what the leader of the third party had to say. He has just confirmed
that the judgment we are about to pass on the member for
Charlesbourg is a question of political opportunism. It boils down
to this: Was what the member said in this House or outside
acceptable to the leader of the third party or did it offend him?
Does this means that from now on, whenever we ask an
embarrassing question of the Prime Minister, a question that might
be considered politically embarrassing by Canadians at large, or
embarrassing for the government or whatever, the leader of the
third party will rise and say: ``Hand this guy over to a House
committee''. This is tantamount to throwing a lamb to the wolves.
(1615)
And yet, this is what he is asking you to do. This is what is
happening. We can no longer ask legitimate questions, questions
our constituents are asking, and rightly so. This is all about
political opportunism. We are told: ``If we do not like what you are
656
saying, we are going to parade you in front of this wolf committee;
you are the lamb and you are going to be torn apart''.
[English]
Mr. Manning: Mr. Speaker, I would answer that intervention
with another question. The Bloc member cannot answer it today,
but it will help the House.
Let us say that Quebec got its sovereignty. If someone advocated
a change in the sovereign government of Quebec by unlawful
means should that be prevented or prohibited in Quebec law? If
your answer to that is yes, then you should be supporting the
motion rather than opposing it.
The Speaker: This ends the question and answer period for this
speaker. Once again, I ask all members to please address the Chair.
Do not address one another. Address the Chair.
Mr. Derek Lee (Scarborough-Rouge River, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we have all been following the remarks of colleagues very
closely on this important issue. As much as we would like to
conclude debate and have the matter dealt with, I would hope that
most of us would want to see the matter go to committee, rather
than taking up the time of the House.
Certain things have to be said and certain things have to be
clarified and I would like to focus on two or three of them now.
The process which I support is one that would cause the motion
to be amended, as has been moved, and referred to a committee.
The importance of amending the motion before it is referred to a
committee lies in two or three reasons.
The first reason is that all of us in the House, I am sure, wish to
accord to each other over the period of our service here the utmost
in procedural fairness and respect.
The manner in which this motion was originally framed,
although perhaps it was not intended, alleges that the action of the
hon. member who was cited was seditious. His action may or may
not constitute sedition. It may or may not constitute something else
in the Criminal Code. It may or may not constitute something else
again, simply involving the appropriate activities of a member of
the House of Commons. Clearly there are some questions on which
we are not clear and the precedents do not teach us well.
The motion should be reframed and the matter should be sent to
a committee in a manner which will not prejudge precisely what
the error was, if any, that occurred by the action which was taken
by the hon. member.
Every one of us has an interest in ensuring procedural fairness.
Today I have heard suggestions from the leader of the official
opposition about this being a kangaroo court. I could be critical of
that. In saying that he does a disservice to himself, to his colleagues
and to all of us in the House by prejudging that something which
we will put in place, something which we will do, will constitute a
kangaroo court. I know that all members of the House will not let
that happen.
(1620)
I want to see the motion amended. I have concerns about the way
the matter is being framed here in the House with constant
references to sedition. There is no need to frame this as sedition.
The Leader of the Opposition and other speakers have attempted
to define what sedition is. In each case they failed to take note of
the very clear words in the Criminal Code that define sedition as
more that just the presumptive words referring to use of force or
violence.
I will read them. Just in case anyone wants to refer to it, it is
section 59 and it states: ``Without limiting the generality of the
expression, seditious intention, everyone shall be presumed to have
a sedition intention who does (a), (b) and (c). But the definition
clearly says ``without limiting the generality of the meaning of the
expression, seditious intention''. Where do we find out what
seditious intention is? It is more than just the presumptive words.
The last case that dealt with this was Boucher v the King in the
1950s. The court was divided but it spoke. In my reading of that
case, sedition does not just involve words or encouragement of the
use of force in promoting public disorder. There are other elements
to it. We should not refer this to the procedure and House affairs
committee without acknowledging the fact that we are not just
talking narrow words of sedition that have been described here.
Sedition is more than that.
Even beyond that, the action by this member should not be seen
as potential sedition. There is another section in the Criminal Code
that has nothing to do with sedition. Section 62 makes no reference
to sedition, but it does say: ``everyone who willfully publishes,
edits, issues, circulates or distributes a writing that advises,
counsels or urges insubordination or disloyalty by a member of a
force''-meaning the armed forces-``is guilty of an indictable
offence''. It says nothing about sedition.
The original motion in the House clearly referred to sedition. In
my view that is too narrow. We must look at other aspects of the
action by the member. It is possible he may not have been wilful.
We do not know. The committee will probably look at that.
However, we must determine whether he did what has been alleged
here because we all have a concern about this.
I take another step and urge the acceptance of the amendment to
the motion. We are not directly concerned here as a public
prosecutor would be about whether there might have been sedition
or that there might have been a counselling to disloyalty of a
member of the armed forces. We are looking at whether a member
of the House misused his office, resources, his taxpayer provided
657
resources, all the privileges he has in the House, for an act that
would bring contempt on the House.
The original motion does not reflect that aspect. That is another
reason why the motion should be amended.
I also heard the word treason mentioned. The word treason
should not have come up. I think we have free speech here within
the limits of the Criminal Code. Treason has not come up. It is a
non-issue. No one has alleged, as the leader of the official
opposition has alleged, that there was some type of treason. There
is no connection between what has happened here and the political
viewpoint of a person in the province of Quebec who may or may
not wish to see his or her government take certain actions in the
future. This is not an issue that involves sovereignty or separatism
or secession.
(1625)
We are dealing with the actions of a member of Parliament in
using his resources to do something that may have been a breach of
our law or a breach of the rules of the House. I have every
expectation that we can fairly accommodate that in the procedures
we have in this House. In my short career here I have seen three or
four procedures involving the bar and motions for contempt.
We have difficulty from time to time when some of us-we are
political animals-politicize these incidents. I would encourage
members on both sides to please try in this case to avoid
politicizing it to the degree to which we are all capable, especially
because the raison d'être of the Bloc Quebecois is arguably related
to the actions of that member. I would not want us to be blind to the
fact that we all could politicize this past the point where we have
the ability to act fairly: fairly in relation to the member, fairly in
relation to ourselves and the precedent we may or may not set for
dealing with these kinds of actions in the future.
I want to see the motion amended. I want to see the matter dealt
with. I have confidence in the abilities of members on both sides of
the House who will sit on the procedure and House affairs
committee to dispose of this matter fairly.
[Translation]
Mr. Louis Plamondon (Richelieu, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I did not
take the floor for a few weeks. I am participating in today's debate
with a lot of sadness. I have been in this House for 12 years, and
during those 12 years I have seen debates where the differences of
opinion between the parties were enormous, and I have seen very
fiery debates.
I remember for example the great debate on the death penalty,
where positions were deeply entrenched. However, members were
always respectful of the rights of their colleagues, whether they
were for or against the death penalty, for or against abortion, for or
against an institutional reform, they were always respectful of each
other. Today's debate in this House is a shame for Canadian
democracy. What we are doing in this House is impugning motives.
Worse, what we are putting on trial is the right to write, speak or
express an opinion on a subject in this country still called Canada.
This is the real debate launched by the Reform Party, and the
Liberal Party is a party to this shameful behaviour.
Today, we are witnessing the sovietization of debates in Canada.
That is what it means. We are creating a censure board, here, in this
country that calls itself democratic. That is what we are doing
today. We are impugning the motives of a political party on the
basis of one communiqué from one of its members. I, too, want to
be implicated, because in my own riding I dared talk to Canadian
athletes who were going to the Olympic Games and told them: ``I
cannot wait for you to serve Quebec in the Olympic Games, when
Quebec becomes a country''.
I talked to the postmaster and told him: ``I cannot wait until, as a
postmaster, you serve Quebec''. I spoke with health research
officers in my riding. I told them: ``I look forward to having you as
health research officers for Quebec after Quebec has become
sovereign''. I spoke with Canada customs officials. I told them: ``I
look forward to having you as employees of Quebec customs''.
(1630)
Does this mean that I am guilty as well? Am I guilty? What kind
of trial are we inflicting upon a Bloc member for saying something
as simple as: ``Dear brothers and sisters who are serving in the
army, you will be welcome in a sovereign Quebec; we will need our
own armed forces in Quebec to participate, alongside the Canadian
Armed Forces, in peacekeeping missions with U.S and European
forces. We would be together and we would only be too pleased to
have you serve under the Quebec flag instead of under the
Canadian flag, since you would no longer be Canadians, but
full-fledged Quebecers''. Where is the sedition in that? What
sedition? Never in the 12 years I have been serving in this
Parliament have I witnessed a case being made against someone
based solely on assumptions like this; never have I seen people try
to censure in this way what is said or what political views the
members of this House may have. This is unacceptable.
I am one disappointed onlooker and I would like to tell my hon.
friends the following. You belong to a great party. I disagree with
the ideas put forth by the Liberal Party, but the Liberal Party always
boasted about being the party of major reforms. Just think about the
reforms in the field of health.
An hon. member: Do not forget the War Measures Act.
658
Mr. Plamondon: There have been a few disappointments, like
the War Measures Act, but on the whole, the Liberal Party has
put forth major reforms. And today, the Liberals would be party
to instituting this kind of censorship. This goes against their
traditions. And one of your leaders, the Hon. Lester B. Pearson,
a human rights advocate, who won the Nobel Peace Prize for his
nobility of soul, his vision and his respect for human rights, must
be spinning in his grave today. He must not be able to believe that
his own party could be party to such a motion.
The Speaker: The hon. member has used up half the allotted
time. We will now have a chance to hear what the other hon.
member has to say.
[English]
Mr. Lee: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his
comments. He focused quite appropriately on our privileges as
members of Parliament. I cannot do anything but support him in
that because his privileges as a member are mine. We all share and
have a very great interest in those privileges.
I want to point out that although the facts of this case have been
presented to persons and authorities outside this House, it is my
understanding that a public prosecutor in the province of Quebec
declined to proceed in relation to these facts.
Mr. Duceppe: In Ontario also.
Mr. Lee: Also in Ontario, as my friend reminds me quite
appropriately.
However, none of us have been made privy to the legal opinions
on which those decisions were based. It may well be that the major
reason no one would proceed was precisely because the member
involved had privileges as a member of Parliament and those
privileges, which my friend has just made reference to, protect us
all in our speech and in our activities in this House of Commons.
It may be that the committee which will deal with this will rate
our privileges so high that it will accord to the member enough
freedom so that he could do again what he did then. That might or
might not happen. However, I just wanted to concur that the
privileges, which we all have here and which we all share, are very
important to us all.
Mr. Bob Ringma (Nanaimo-Cowichan, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the hon. member for Scarborough-Rouge River is right about the
privileges of Parliament. That is precisely what we are about here.
We can potentially talk about sedition in the armed forces. We are
not talking about that. We can talk potentially about sedition
among members of the public. We are not talking about that. We
are talking about what happens in this Chamber. Is there a
possibility of sedition in the case in front of us?
(1635)
I ask the hon. member: How is the Standing Committee on
Procedure and House Affairs going to be able to examine this
question of privilege and procedure in this Parliament with the
modified amended motion brought forth by the Liberals? All it
states is that the matter of the communiqué, released October 1995
by the hon. member for Charlesbourg, with reference to members
of the Canadian Armed Forces, be referred to the Standing
Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. Referred for what?
Let us be precise here. Give the committee a chance to address the
issue by putting some meat in it.
Mr. Lee: Mr. Speaker, this is a good question. The hon. member
opposite will take note that the Speaker has already found that the
issue, as framed by the hon. member who originally rose, is prima
facie a matter of privilege and therefore the matter has already been
framed.
Second, the body of debate that accompanies this motion in its
eventual passage or non-passage as the case may be will be part of
the record that goes to the committee. There will be no doubt in the
minds of committee members what the Speaker has ruled, what the
member originally moved and what members of this House have
put forward in relation to these facts.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier-Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, we are dealing with an important matter and we have
heard all sorts of things for about an hour. I am a little surprised by
what we heard. I think we must go back to the definition of
sedition, because it is what the Reform Party is talking about in its
motion.
As you can see, Reform members have somewhat altered the
meaning of sedition. We must go back to section 59, which
provides that ``every one shall be presumed to have a seditious
intention who teaches or advocates, or publishes or circulates any
writing that advocates, the use, without the authority of law, of
force as a means of accomplishing a governmental change within
Canada''.
Well, the communiqué makes no mention of this. It is very clear.
I thought I would be arguing with Reform members on the basis
that the communiqué does not refer to this or contravene section
62, which relates to any member of the military who is guilty of
disloyalty, insubordination, mutiny or refusal, or section 59, which
concerns anyone who publishes or circulates any writing that
advocates the use of force as a means of accomplishing a
governmental change.
I thought our debate would revolve around this and I was
somewhat surprised at first, because this matter was raised by a
Montreal lawyer, Mr. Tyler, in the Quebec courts, and in an Ontario
court, before it was dismissed. One judge even called the
communiqué a job offer. In other words, this is as far as he could
go in
659
ridiculing the claims of this lawyer, a supporter of the partition of
Quebec, we must remember.
The ministers of Defence and of Justice have told us, either in
the House or in press releases, that they would be consulting their
legal advisers in order to see whether there are grounds for laying
charges. According to Diane Francis of the Financial Post, one of
the Reform's gurus, the legal advisors of both ministers, Defence
and Justice, have indicated that there was nothing to be done.
There was therefore no basis for accusations of sedition. What is
surprising this afternoon is that there are admissions that there is no
sedition, but they want another definition of sedition: crimes of
opinion. The leader of the Reform Party, a person of some
consequence, is speaking now of crimes of opinion, saying that in
Canada there could be criminals of opinion. That is new, totally
new. CSIS may have been investigating the Reform Party, but I
have a feeling that next year it will be Amnesty International.
(1640)
It is not very democratic to talk in terms of a crime of opinion.
This is a new definition of what sedition is. In a way, it does not
surprise me that a few Reform members would think of leaving that
party, finding it to be too far to the right and seeing that, thank God,
the majority of Canadians, no matter whether Quebec remains a
part of the federation or not, would never follow that party in its
undemocratic attitudes.
What is going a bit far, as was pointed out by the Leader of the
Opposition, is speaking of sedition and ending up giving out a fax
number. This is like storming the Bastille. One thing is clear: there
will surely not be any exercise in camouflaged terrorism led by the
defence minister to storm the Bloc headquarters. We indicate
where we stand.
It is completely ridiculous to speak of sedition. Mr. Tyler has
been told so. There have been three previous cases of sedition.
The first case, I think, was that of Louis Riel. It goes back a long
way, and I find it very disturbing that one could refer to Louis Riel,
because it was recognized later on that it was a mistake. Even
though this Parliament refused to apologize, some even consider
him a Father of Confederation. But he had been found guilty, which
is not the case with the hon. member for Charlesbourg, far from it.
A few years later, it was realized that Louis Riel was not guilty.
The second case is the case of Fred Rose, in 1946. This was when
the Cold War was at its worst. It may be more accurate to talk of an
open conflict, since McCarthyism was about to take hold of the
United States. He was convicted, and there was a certain
foundation in fact for his conviction. But today, his guilt is being
questioned.
It is very dangerous to exploit the concept of guilt in matters of
opinion the way the Reform Party is trying to do.
I will deal later on with the Liberals or at least with the Liberal
member who raised that same point. I am not talking about the
mover of the motion, but about the member who spoke after him.
The name of his riding escapes me. I am happy to see my colleague
across the way is relieved.
The third case is that of Mr. McGreevy, in the 1880s. That
member was actually guilty, and he resigned before the committee
hearings took place. That case and that of the hon. member for
Charlesbourg have absolutely nothing in common. I repeat,
absolutely nothing.
A Reform member, the hon. member for Saanich-Gulf Islands
made a statement the day after the press release or a few days later.
That was the first reaction of the Reform Party to the press release.
Here is what he said:
[English]
``I do not think this can be considered inciting mutiny. We have
to accept that in the Canadian forces right now are some people
who are in favour of separation''.
[Translation]
What have we here? A member of the Reform Party who seems
to understand something about the situation.
Mr. Lebel: We do not see that very often.
Mr. Duceppe: Some say that we do not see that very often, and I
tend to agree with them.
An hon. member: Yet, he seconded the motion.
Mr. Duceppe: However, I want to talk about our colleagues
opposite, because they were not of that opinion at the very
beginning. They raised some issues similar to what the Reform is
saying today. I would like to remind the House that in the days
following this press release, in early November, the federal
Liberals were talking about their plan B, in which they seemed to
promote the partition of Quebec. They were also questioning the
percentage needed for a Yes vote to carry and asking to review the
question the government of Quebec would eventually come up
with.
So, the defence minister said:
[English]
``I am shocked by the communiqué-''
[Translation]
He may well be shocked, but then he seems to be shocked most
of the time.
660
(1645 )
[English]
-``and I am seeking an opinion on the propriety of this release''.
[Translation]
This is what he did, but he did not get any answer, as we saw
later.
I refer to the chief government whip, who said:
[English]
``This is dangerously close to inciting mutiny in the forces''.
[Translation]
I think the Liberals were the first to raise this issue. They
contributed, I would say, to the feeling of paranoia created in the
media in English Canada. A bit like Diane Francis, whom the
Reform members seem to find inspiring nowadays. However, the
Reform members woke up and realized the Liberals were about to
overtake them on the right. When you can pass the Reformers on
the right, you are way out to the right.
Today, the Liberals are proposing an amendment. I think they are
trying in a roundabout way to do something they do not have the
fortitude to do outright. One cannot talk about sedition without
being held up to ridicule, since the legal advisers of certain
ministers are saying there is no sedition. It is not possible any more
to say to Quebec-They can say something to Canada and
something else to Quebec, but there are limits to what can be said
because the English term ``sedition'' and the French term
``sédition'' are very close. They should not speak of sedition to
Quebec, especially since their legal advisers are of a different
opinion, not to mention that there will soon be by-elections and the
Leader of the Opposition in Quebec, federalist Daniel Johnson, is
telling them to go easy and revert from plan B to plan A.
Now they know they cannot play that game as they did at the
very beginning, on November 4, when the Reform Party was still
asleep.
So today they try to withdraw anything that would make the
member for Charlesbourg look guilty before being judged, but they
still refer this matter to the Committee on Procedure rather than
defeating it here and concluding this whole debate in order to go on
to more pressing matters. They cannot do it because there are, in
the Liberal caucus, members who are still talking of plan B.
Besides, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Mr.
Dion-who can be named, since he is not a member of
Parliament-always speaks of plan B.
The other side backs all the horses. They do in a roundabout
what they do not dare to do outright. But I notice that there is a
member who goes a little further by raising an issue of conscience
when he asks: ``Can the letterhead of the House be used to promote
political opinions?''
If there are Liberal members who do not use the letterhead of the
House to promote their political opinions, I think we should
question the way public funds are used. It is meant to be used that
way. If they spend the money for other purposes, then it is
questionable, very questionable.
This means that we are still talking about a crime of opinion.
Some could say: ``Long live Canada and long live the Canadian
armed forces, and there is the risk that soldiers from Quebec will
no longer be allowed to serve in the Canadian army if Quebec
becomes sovereign'', which would be correct. On the other hand,
we could not say: ``This is what will happen if Quebec becomes a
sovereign country''. That is a crime of opinion. That is a double
standard, and it is dangerous, but definitely not for the Bloc
Quebecois. I must say that we are thick-skinned. We are used to
fighting in the House, and the fight is not over. Some day, we will
win. I am telling you that this is much more dangerous for
democracy in Canada. It is dangerous because this country does not
deserve to fall under the boot of some dictatorship, because that is
what this will lead to ultimately. When you start condemning
people because of what they think, where does that lead you? That
is where such regimes lead. Everybody knows that.
Canada sends military personnel to other countries to make sure
such regimes disappear from the surface of the earth. I believe
there is a Criminal Code, a Civil Code. There are the workings of
the internal economy committee. Some would like to circumvent
these procedures and start judging people according to what they
think and not according to the rights which should be the same for
everybody. If we change our way of doing things, the people do not
have the same rights anymore. I believe this must have precedence
over any political allegiance.
(1650)
In conclusion, I want to make a few other remarks. In its motion,
the Reform Party talks about francophones. But I looked at the text,
and it does not say francophones, it says Quebecers. For us,
Quebecers are not only francophones. There are anglophones in
Quebec, aboriginal people, people who come from other countries
and integrate into Quebec society. They never talked about
Quebecers.
When people make ethnic divisions like you do, we know where
that leads. Crimes of opinion, ethnic divisions, these are words that
I have seldom heard in this House. And coming from the Liberals, I
have to say that it surprises me. I know that, in the past, the
Liberals have passed good legislation. There were great measures;
we just have to think of Lester B. Pearson. But there was also the
War Measures Act. That was a bit less democratic. There is a little
661
dark side to our red friends, but it is an exception in the way the
Liberal Party operates. Plan B is a dangerous departure from
liberalism in the noble sense of the word.
As for the Reformers, it does not surprise me that much since I
remember a debate we had for two or three hours on the
reinstatement of corporal punishment for children. I did not think I
would see that in the 1990s. I know that one Reform member is
going to Singapore to see if you can get results by flogging children
or by striking the soles of their feet with a bamboo rod. When a
member wonders about and puts time, money and research into
investigating the merits of whacking people on the feet, there is
definitely something out of whack.
There have been some strange things from the beginning, but it
has still been quite some time, since the Bloc's very first days here,
since there has been anything like this. Members will recall the
$500 billion lawsuit when we first arrived. To be precise, some saw
the Bloc's arrival as the end of Canada's debt. They probably
thought we had $500 billion. Ignorance is bliss.
On a more serious note, I think that what we are talking about
here is democracy, the right of sovereignists to express themselves,
just as in Quebec there is a concern about the right of federalists to
express themselves in the Parliament of Quebec. I suppose we
would not dare ask them to check the papers they send to their
voters or their press releases on the pretext that we do not agree
with their content. This has not been done here either, and I expect
and hope it will not be done.
Most importantly, I hope that the voice of reason will prevail in
English Canada. I must tell you frankly that I do not count on the
Reform Party for that. That is definitely out of the question. I
believe that in the Liberal Party there are people for whom
democracy must prevail over petty party politics and I hope they
will put aside plan B and will, at the end of the day, vote against
this motion. I hope they will dissociate themselves from what could
pave the way to McCarthyism. You know what that led to in the
United States.
Canada kept away from that. Some were tempted to go that route
in Canada and Quebec, and this is not a racial issue. We had people
who thought along those lines. Duplessis was not very far from that
sort of thinking. But we have progressed. I hope you will not back
track. I believe it is important. Someone just mentioned the
amendment, but that amendment will not change anything. It is a
compromise solution within the Liberal Party.
An hon member: It is a mascarade.
Mr. Duceppe: In English Canada, they say: ``As you saw, we
supported the Reform Party on that issue''. In Quebec, they say:
``As you saw, we stood up to the Reform Party''. This is the way the
Liberals act. Canadian diversity at its best; oh, sure. We have seen
this in the past: two languages, two messages.
In conclusion, I must tell you that what counts for us is not the
future of the Bloc but the future of Quebec. What counts for us is
sovereignty. This is why the Bloc does not have much future in the
long term. The future of democracy is much more important for us.
(1655)
At issue here is whether democracy is going to be questioned for
political ends when, in political and parliamentary terms, the
position of official opposition is out of reach, when playing one's
role in committees is parliamentarily impossible and when winning
a by-election is politically impossible. Every possible means is
being used to talk about every speech, except the heart of the
matter, at the moment.
For a party that wanted to discuss public finances-the
opportunity is there-, for a party that wanted to talk of
unemployment insurance-although their idea of unemployment
insurance is worse than the Liberals', believe it or not-not a word
is heard. This party has the opportunity in the days following the
budget to debate both it and the throne speech. What does it do?
The debate is no longer about sedition, as the leader of the Reform
Party said, but about a crime of opinion. This is what is before us.
I hope, less for the Bloc than for Canadian democracy, that the
entire House, except of course the Reform members, but the other
parties will give thought to this and rise and vote against it. We will
continue to debate federalism and sovereignty, but we will comply
with the standards and remain true to democracy, without hearing
the sound of boots in the distance.
[English]
The Speaker: It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to
inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time
of adjournment is as follows: the hon. member for
Lambton-Middlesex, softwood lumber industry.
Ms. Mary Clancy (Halifax, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I was loath to
rise and comment on this matter but a number of things require
some clarification.
As you frequently remind us, Mr. Speaker, this is a Chamber in
which passionate debate and passionate partisanship exist. I would
be the last to deny that I relish both passionate debate and
passionate partisanship. I want to say something that needs to be
said. Every member of Parliament in the Chamber is here because
he or she believes very deeply and passionately in the form of
public service he or she has chosen.
There are certain things that perhaps get lost in debates of this
nature. With regard to what I presume are the intentions of the
member for Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt, I do not disagree
with those. I have difficulty, however, with the wording of the
motion. I agree wholeheartedly with my colleague, the member for
Scarborough-Rouge River, and with other members, including
the chief government whip. The difficulty is while this place is the
662
highest court in the land, it is not a court of law in the context of the
courts in all of our ridings.
It would ill behove us as members of Parliament to usurp the
actions of those courts even as in this particular case prosecutors
have refused for whatever reasons to make a charge. It would be
unparliamentary of us to use the words that we on the government
side feel should be deleted. However, we will let that pass.
I do every much want to see the question of privilege go to the
committee for its proper disposition. With regard to all members of
Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition who have spoken on this matter, I
am very proud that these matters can be debated in the Chamber.
(1700 )
Mr. Epp: Why do you not say something serious?
Ms. Clancy: Perhaps the hon. member would let me finish. This
is very serious. I have already said that I believe very much in
partisanship. God knows I can out-heckle him any day of the week
but that is not the point. The point is, let us get on with this. Let us
get the motion in its proper framework to the proper committee so
that it can be disposed of.
I would like to finish my comments with respect to Her
Majesty's Loyal Opposition by saying that all of us on this side of
the House are proud that issues such as this one and issues that
relate to the unity of Canada, the sovereignty of Canada and our
Constitution are being debated here and in committee under
democratic rules and procedures, not in the street with bombs.
[Translation]
Mr. Duceppe: Mr. Speaker, we all agree that this should not be
settled in the streets with bombs. Everybody agrees. But how can
one be proud to say that national unity and Canadian sovereignty
cannot be debated, the two examples the member gave? This is not
what it is about. What we are talking about is a press release
providing information.
How can one be proud to want to censor a member of
Parliament, or even to take punitive measures against him? How
can one be proud of prosecuting someone for his beliefs? This is
what it is all about.
This might sound good in their ridings, but it is not good for
democracy. This is nothing to be proud about. This kind of action
brings shame to Canada.
[English]
Mr. Lee Morrison (Swift Current-Maple
Creek-Assiniboia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, on several occasions the
hon. member used the phrase ``avoir un avis'', to have an opinion. I
wonder what sort of silly sophistry this is. Nobody is talking about
the right or the ability to have opinions in this House or anywhere
else. We are talking about actions.
If someone writes a letter encouraging members of the Canadian
Armed Forces to abandon their oath of allegiance, that is not
having an opinion, that is an action. If someone delivers that letter
to military bases, that is not having an opinion, that is an action. We
are talking about deeds in this place, bad deeds.
I would like to raise a second point because the hon. member for
Calgary Northeast is not here and he was slandered by the member.
He did not make a trip to Singapore specifically and precisely to
study the question of whipping. And he did not, in the true
Bloc-Liberal tradition, take a taxpayer paid junket to Singapore. He
paid his own way. I think the hon. member knows that. I think he
owes the hon. member for Calgary Northeast an apology.
[Translation]
Mr. Duceppe: Mr. Speaker, ridicule never killed anyone, we all
know that. We are being told: ``You may have an opinion, but you
may not express it, you cannot voice it''. This is what the member
just said. What a beautiful country.
It makes for quite a dialogue. It is as if I said: ``I have an opinion.
What is it? I am not saying''. Then someone else said: ``Can we
talk?'' Then, I replied: ``Yes, I have ideas, opinions, we can talk''.
And the other said: ``Oh no, we cannot talk about that''.
What an impressive, what a remarkable dialogue. It is all fine
and well for you to come to Quebec a few days before referendum,
to jump on junkets trips to Quebec. We know all about junkets. One
hundred dollars from Vancouver to Montreal, but not work in the
opposite direction. Tell me about junkets.
It is totally ludicrous to have an opinion and not be able to voice
it. This is what freedom of opinion means, it seems. Without such
freedom, what kind of country will this be? We have the right to
have opinions, but not to voice them. Oh, really.
(1705)
Secondly, concerning the Reform member who made a trip to
Singapore, I stand by what I said, I will not apologize. He paid his
own way, no problem. I would point out that, when there is a trip
for a parliamentary association, some Reformers do go on the trip,
but not too often, I must admit.
Paranoia can exist in politics. Reform members want to have
very few contacts with their colleagues abroad. This kind of
isolationism is a integral part of their political doctrine, but not of
ours. We are not uncomfortable about being members of Canadian
delegations and sharing Quebec's point of view in a very courteous
manner with our Liberal friends.
663
As far as Reformers are concerned, when they have opinions,
they cannot set them out in their political doctrine, so why would
they need to meet others? I can understand that.
[English]
Mr. Strahl: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. During his
presentation the member for Laurier-Sainte-Marie said that the
member for Calgary Northeast had been to Singapore at the
taxpayers' expense. He has not even been to Singapore. I would
like to make that clear.
[Translation]
Mr. Duceppe: Mr. Speaker, I did not say that he made the trip at
taxpayers' expense. One colleague says he did not go, and the other
tells me he that he did but paid his own way.
[English]
Mr. John Bryden (Hamilton-Wentworth, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I rise today in this debate with a sense of great concern
because I feel, as you do, that the issue is very important. Future
generations will be looking at this debate. I want to take this
opportunity to put on the record what I think is the very core of the
debate.
The member for Scarborough-Rouge River mentioned that the
reference to sedition in the original motion may be in error. There
is another category in Martin's Annual Criminal Code which may
be appropriate. Mr. Speaker, with your indulgence I would like to
read that passage in its entirety into the record and when people
refer to this debate they will see it before them.
This is from section 63 of Martin's Annual Criminal Code,
concerning offences in relation to military forces. Military forces
refers to the Canadian forces:
(1) Every one who wilfully
(a) interferes with, impairs or influences the loyalty or discipline of a member
of a force,
(b) publishes, edits, issues, circulates or distributes a writing that advises,
counsels or urges insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny or refusal of duty by a
member of a force, or
(c) advises, counsels, urges or in any manner causes insubordination,
disloyalty, mutiny or refusal of duty by a member of a force,
is guilty of an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a period of
five years.
I am not a lawyer, I admit that. This is the section in
Martin's
Annual Criminal Code that seems to be more relevant than this
arcane debate we are having about the definition of sedition. It
would appear to me from the communiqué I read that this section
of
Martin's Annual Criminal Code is the most important portion.
The member for Berthier-Montcalm spoke earlier and made
the observation that there is nothing in the communiqué that
should cause us concern or alarm in the context of sedition. Also, I
should say in passing that there was nothing in the communiqué
that specified francophones as opposed to anglophones. There was
a suggestion that the communiqué may have been directed at some
people because of their French language ability.
(1710 )
I point out that the Martin's Annual Criminal Code passage I
cited involves all the Canadian forces; it does not make distinction
by language. It does not make any distinction in that way at all. If a
person is in contravention of that passage, it regardless of the
linguistic origin of the member of the Canadian forces talked
about.
In that context I would like to read into the record a couple of
passages from the communiqué which my Bloc colleagues seemed
to have overlooked in the course of the debate. I will read them in
French. One relevant passage is on the second page of the
communiqué:
[Translation]
``The day after a yes win,'' he says, ``Quebec should immediately create a
Department of Defence, an embryo of a major state-''
-that ought to read ``of a military staff''-
-and offer all Quebecers serving in the Canadian Forces the chance to
integrate into the Quebec Forces ``while keeping their rank, seniority, pay and
retirement funds as a means to ensure a better transition-''
[
English]
The other relevant passage is at the very end of the communiqué.
It is a quote from the hon. member for Charlesbourg:
[Translation]
``All this expertise will not disappear with Quebec's accession to sovereignty
and personally, I think that soldiers of Quebec will respect the people's decision
and will transfer their loyalty to the new country whose security they will
ensure'', Mr. Jacob concluded.
We must take note of the last words:
-whose security they will ensure-
[
English]
We have to go to the beginning of the paragraph:
[Translation]
The day after a yes win-
[
English]
I am not a lawyer, I am just an ordinary Canadian and an
ordinary MP. It is not my position and not my responsibility to
interpret the law. I can say however that as an ordinary person I did
find the words in that press release, which I read for the first time
today, very troubling in the context of the passage I quoted from
Martin's Annual Criminal Code. Very troubling indeed.
664
I am not prepared to support the Reform Party motion as
presented because that motion has two flaws. It has the flaw the
hon. member for Scarborough-Rouge River mentioned that it
stresses sedition. We have reason to believe that it might not be
sedition.
On the other hand it also prejudges the situation with the hon.
member for Charlesbourg. As a member of Parliament and an
ordinary Canadian I am not willing to prejudge anyone and I do not
think it is proper to do that. I support the amendment which would
send the motion to a committee of the House for a deliberation on
the issue, whether something was done improperly here or not.
I was very disturbed that the Leader of the Official Opposition
disagreed with the motion on the grounds that there would be some
danger the committee would not judge the situation in the motion
that would come to it without any kind of prejudice or prior
conclusion. He seemed to think that members of Parliament would
not be able to judge and analyse a situation dispassionately in the
very sense of justice and fair play that we in this Parliament should
all believe in.
That is one of the things that disturbed me because the Bloc
Quebecois, with the greatest respect, have always argued
absolutely that the debate with respect to sovereignty or separatism
or call it what you will has to be conducted in a democratic fashion.
It has to respect all levels of our parliamentary institutions.
(1715)
I have been disturbed to hear several members suggest that by
referring this issue to a parliamentary committee, having changed
the original motion so that there is no prejudice in it-we just want
to examine the issue-that the Bloc Quebecois finds that this is not
something it can support. Having heard its members so many times
say that we should conduct ourselves in a parliamentary fashion
and that this is a democracy, this is something that they should get
behind in every way.
I support the motion. It does a great service it has for you, my
fellow colleagues in the Bloc Quebecois-
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member is permitted to face the
members, but he can at least address his remarks as if he were
speaking to the Chair.
Mr. Bryden: Mr. Speaker, I do not like to say I am on the wrong
side of the House but it is very difficult to speak to hon. members
while they are behind me. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the
remark.
The Bloc Quebecois misses a wonderful opportunity here
because if the words used by the member of Charlesbourg which
caused me so much concern and caused Canadians concern were
debated by the committee, we are not looking to attribute blame or
to assign une mauvaise entente. We are looking to define the
parameters of our debates in and outside this House on the question
of sovereignty.
I believe that in all probability the member for Charlesbourg
acted foolishly, acted impetuously but did not act wilfully.
However he has acted in a way that we should all be concerned
about. It is a way that some may consider dangerous, a way that
some may consider inciting high emotions and certainly in a way
which when we compare the Martin's Criminal Code passage I
cited and the actual words from the communiqué we have every
reason to be concerned.
I urge the Bloc Quebecois to support the motion to send this to
committee so that we can all get an impartial assessment of
whether or not the member for Charlesbourg went too far. It does
not matter whether or not there is criminality. I am sure that no
member of any committee would ever suggest such a thing. It
would define the debate. It is in the interest of democracy, the very
democracy that the members of the Bloc Quebecois are so fond of
citing and indicating that they have great respect for.
In conclusion, I think it very much is a matter of the current
situation with sovereignty and a question of democracy.
[Translation]
Mr. Ghislain Lebel (Chambly, BQ): Mr. Speaker, there is
something profoundly unhealthy in today's exercise.
As I listen to government members, I realize that they have all
made up their mind. The member who just spoke has already made
up his mind. This is unhealthy. Maybe the hon. member for
Charlesbourg should not have done that; personally, I would not
have done it. An hon. member said earlier that this is not a real
court. However, the consequences are worse than in the case of a
real court, since a legitimately elected member of this House may
be prevented from sitting in this place.
After listening to all those who spoke here on behalf of the
government and the Reform Party-and I have no doubt that they
are unanimous in this case-how can you expect the committee to
disregard their comments and make an enlightened, impartial, fair
and honest decision? This is hogwash.
I have a question for the member who just spoke. Last week, in
the riding next to mine, in Saint-Hyacinthe, about 100 people held
a protest against the UI reform. My friend and colleague, the
member for Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot, and myself, went to that
demonstration.
Do the Liberal Party and the hon. member who just spoke view
our action as seditious, since we told these people to not get taken
in, to assert themselves, that they had a right to protest and not be
pleased with that reform? This is seditious stuff.
665
(1720)
Are we also going to accuse the 30 or so policemen who were
there of complicity, since they did not step in and beat the heck out
of us? They, too, are guilty of something. I would appreciate an
answer.
[English]
Mr. Bryden: Mr. Speaker, the member's question is not at all
relevant. We are talking about members of the Canadian forces
who took an loyalty oath to the crown. We are not talking about a
labour situation. I am very disappointed with the member.
I suspect no member in the Bloc Quebecois can answer my
question about democracy. Why do they not want this to go to a
committee of their fellow MPs who would simply assess whether
or not the member for Charlesbourg went a little too far? That is all
we are looking for.
[Translation]
Mr. Jean H. Leroux (Shefford, BQ): Mr. Speaker, first of all, I
would like to correct to record. All communiqués released by the
Office of the Leader of the Opposition for the records are always in
both official languages. So this communiqué was written in both
French and English. That is my first comment.
Second, I wish to set the record straight before putting a question
to the hon. member. The communiqué in question was released on
October 26, a few days before the referendum. The polls were then
saying that the yes side would win, which aroused some fears in
certain sectors, including perhaps people working for the Canadian
Forces. There were some fears.
As you can imagine, one hears all sorts of things on military
bases. ``If you vote yes, you will lose your job'' may have been said
here and there on some military bases. The defence critic, the hon.
member for Charlesbourg, therefore released a communiqué
designed to reassure people. Does the hon. member believe that, in
the event of a yes vote in the referendum, Canada would have been
able to afford to keep all those soldiers? That is my question to him.
[English]
Mr. Bryden: Mr. Speaker, I will go back to the communiqué, but
I will make a little abridgement to it. The relevant passage that we
are talking about and which is at the centre of the problem is:
[Translation]
The day after a yes vote-I think that members of the military from Quebec
will respect the people's decision and shift their loyalty to the new country for
whose security they will be responsible.
[
English]
It states that the day after the yes vote, members of the military
forces, regardless of whether they speak English or French, which
is the racist comment raised by the Bloc Quebecois members, are
being asked to take action to separate their loyalty to Canada. That
is a bad thing to do.
[Translation]
Mr. Roger Pomerleau (Anjou-Rivière-des-Prairies, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, I would have a question for my hon. colleague, who is
no doubt a democrat. I know him personally. I would like to react to
a statement made by the hon. member just a moment ago, and by
the Speaker before him, to the effect that this House is living
through its most important moments.
There is a fundamental reason for the Speaker to tell us that; it is
because we are dealing with the very foundation of democracy
here. We are, of course, elected members of this House, and the
only thing that legitimizes our discussing this matter here today is
the fact that we were elected.
We are elected members, and the majority of us were elected on
a very clear platform of jobs, jobs, jobs, elimination of the GST,
renewal of federalism or of the system under which we live, while
our platform, a remarkably clear platform, was to look after the
interests of Quebec and promote the sovereignty of Quebec.
You will recall that we were elected in an election in which Bloc
candidates ran against Liberal and Conservative candidates. The
people of Quebec voted to send 54 members to Ottawa to promote
this option. I am a 100 per cent behind my hon. colleague for
Richelieu, who described events that took place in his riding as
well.
(1725)
I would like to ask a question to the hon. member who spoke
before me. He claimed to understand what is going on here, and he
is still willing to refer the issue to a committee and have my
colleague from Charlesbourg be judged by that committee.
Does the hon. member understand what that means? Does he
understand that a committee will pass judgement on an elected
member because he stood for what he was elected on? By doing
that, Quebec as a whole would be sent to be judged by a committee.
[English]
Mr. Bryden: Mr. Speaker, the committee is not going to make a
decision with respect to this, it is going to assess the words. It is not
a member who is being sent to committee, it is the words that are
going to be evaluated.
I would ask Bloc Quebecois members if they believe in the
parliamentary system. If they believe in democracy then they
should support this motion so we can get it into committee and
evaluate the situation without prejudice and in the manner that is
appropriate for MPs.
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Vegreville, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I would
like to ask the hon. member why his government has not dealt with
this issue in over four months. Canadians have been asking for
666
some action to be taken against the member for Charlesbourg for
four months. Reform has been pushing for action for four months.
Why has his government refused to deal with this issue until now,
when the Reform Party has forced the issue?
Mr. Bryden: Mr. Speaker, this is the crux of the problem. We are
not seeking action against any particular member of Parliament.
We are seeking clarification of words that were said that caused
great concern both in the nation and within Parliament. It is the
words we have to examine. This is not a kangaroo court, this is
Parliament that is operating here.
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, we have
been reminded that this is a place of passionate debate and
partisanship. My comments today are going to be very partisan. I
wish to make it very clear for the readers of Hansard that I am
going to attempt to do this in a totally dispassionate way. I think it
is important that I do it in a dispassionate way because this is a very
passionate issue.
I would like to refocus this debate in the direction that my
colleague from Vegreville was just pointing. We are presently
debating the Liberal amendment to the Reform motion. The
Liberal's first excuse for gutting our motion is that voting for the
motion decides before examination that the member is guilty.
These are the facts. Voting for the motion means what the motion
says, that the House view the action as seditious and a contempt,
and it should be examined by a committee. Just like any other court
you are charged before the trial. Without that charge we would not
be debating the motion. It would not have been given privilege.
The Speaker said ``the House today is being faced with one of
the more serious matters we have been faced with in this 35th
Parliament. I believe that the charges are so grave against one of
our own members that the House should deal with this accusation
forthwith''.
I also quote Beauchesne's citation 50 which says:
In any case where the propriety of a Member's actions is brought into
question, a specific charge must be made.
That is very clear. The wording we have in the initial motion is
the correct wording. It was thought out wording. It was wording
that as put forward by the leader of the Reform Party in a very clear
call to action by this House of Commons. I charge that the Liberals
are attempting to gut our motion.
They have an old excuse. The old excuse for inaction is that
sedition is something for the courts to decide. That was the very
weak-kneed answer to my colleague from Vegreville. They say let
somebody else do it, they do not want to rock the boat. Here are the
facts. If the courts want to deal with a charge, they do what courts
do. Parliament does whatever it wants in the context of a contempt
of Parliament. Citation 28 of Beauchesne's sixth edition states:
Parliament is a court with respect to its own privileges and dignity and the
privileges of its Members.
(1730)
Citation 49:
It is not necessary for the courts to come to a decision before the House acts.
In 1891 charges were laid in the House against Thomas McGreevy relating to
scandals in the Public Works Department. The Committee on Privileges and
Elections examined the evidence and concluded that the charges were amply
proven.
I parenthesize and point out that the House judged Mr.
McGreevy to be guilty of a contempt of the House as well as
certain of the charges and ordered his expulsion.
Other references to support the right of Parliament to charge a
member with whatever it wants to charge a member with are in
Joseph Maingot's Parliamentary Privilege in Canada, page 100-
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Labour and Deputy
Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, on a point of order.
I wish to give notice that with respect to the consideration of the
motion before the House, at the next sitting I shall move, pursuant
to Standing Order 57, that the debate be not further adjourned.
The House resumed consideration of the motion and the
amendment.
Mr. Abbot: Mr. Speaker, that is absolutely outrageous. I said at
the start of my discussion that I was-
[Translation]
Mrs. Tremblay: Mr. Speaker, could you explain to the House
what the minister has moved? We did not hear him.
The Deputy Speaker: Dear colleague, the minister just gave
notice that he will move closure under Standing Order 57. Such a
motion is in order and it is in proper form.
[English]
Mr. Abbott: Mr. Speaker, I say with the greatest sorrow that
when I came to the House of Commons I really thought I was
coming to a House of democracy. I did not think I was coming to a
House in which the Liberals, absolutely sick with power, would
bring closure on a motion like this. They are absolutely disgraceful;
totally disgraceful.
It does not come as any surprise to me that when the Reform
Party wanted to sing the Canadian anthem in the House of
Commons these people, these Liberals, these individuals, chose to
667
block the ability of even being able to sing the Canadian national
anthem in the House of Commons.
It therefore comes as absolutely no surprise that they would
bring closure to this debate. I find it absolutely disgusting and
appalling.
We have been through the process of an election and many
people after that election said: ``It does not make any sense that we
have a debate in which we have five leaders sitting in front of the
television cameras debating and one leader is out to take Quebec
out of Canada''. They told me: ``That does not make any sense, but
I suppose that is the Canadian way''.
We went through the whole process and when we got to the
House of commons, notwithstanding that we are a national party
with members of Parliament in five provinces, those people on that
side of the House sided with the Bloc Quebecois and said it would
be Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition. What a joke. It is a joke.
I find it absolutely unspeakably stupid that the Liberals would
invoke closure on this motion.
(1735 )
I suggest there is a reason. They knew that when the next Reform
speaker got up, namely me, I would end up pointing the finger at
the people who are responsible for not setting the Canadian agenda.
They do not have any idea of how to put together Canadian unity.
They think that by giving an ``800-call-for-flags'' telephone
number people will wave flags and we will have Canadian unity.
It is unimaginable when we have gone through a situation in
which the people of Canada have bent over backwards to the point
at which they have asked who will draw a line in the sand.
If the Liberals will not do it, Reformers will. We are drawing a
line in the sand right now. This seditious activity of the member of
the Bloc Quebecois cannot stand. This is the line in the sand. We go
no further.
The people of Canada deserve leadership. What are they getting?
They are getting waffling. What about the members on the other
side?
The people of Canada need to know that every time there is an
election in committee these members are lined up and follow along
like good little ducks behind the party whip and vote in favour of
the Bloc Quebecois for the vice-chair position.
Canadians need to know, notwithstanding the motion by my
colleague from Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt, that the
members of the Liberal Party voted in favour of a Bloc Quebecois
vice-chair for the defence committee. It is absolutely shameful and
disgusting. I cannot believe that a so-called national party would be
in bed with these people who are out to destroy our country.
I spoke to the Minister of National Defence. I asked him what he
will do about this issue. The minister said: ``There is no problem.
We will refer it to the judge advocate general''. What happened?
Nothing. No activity. Nothing was done by the Liberals. It was
taken to court. I am told that under the definitions of the court,
although we do not have the official rulings yet, it is not applicable.
Who will draw a line in the sand? The Reform Party will draw a
line in the sand against the people who want to break up Canada,
even if the Liberal government will not do it.
It has been suggested by the Bloc, and surely it must be a joke,
that this is a simple matter of talking about employment; in other
words, the people in the armed forces are in it for the money. The
people in the armed forces are wonderful, dedicated, loyal
Canadians who are prepared to put their lives on the line for their
country.
How serious can Bloc members be when they suggest people in
the armed forces are concerned only about their employment and
their next paycheque? I can think of a lot of ways which are easier
to make money than putting my head above a turret and getting it
shot off. It is absolutely crazy.
The official opposition defence critic who, along with the then
leader of the opposition, Bouchard, came into the Chamber went
into the Speaker's chamber and pledged an oath of allegiance to the
Queen. Those two people, with the collusion of the members of the
Bloc caucus, said: ``Why do we not suggest that people give up on
the Canadian army and come over to the Quebec army?''
People in the army are not civil servants in the sense of a civil
servant. People in the army are the people who protect us in
Canada. They are the ultimate end. They are the ultimate line. They
are the ultimate protection for what we call civilization in Canada.
We cannot toy with the army. That is exactly what Bloc members
are doing.
The people of Canada want to know there is someone, some
party, some power somewhere prepared to draw a line in the sand.
The Reform Party will do it in the absence of leadership from the
Liberals.
(1740 )
With that in mind, notwithstanding the efforts of these people
who are duplicitous in their joining of forces with the Bloc
Quebecois by trying to gut our bill, by bringing in closure so their
deeds will not be seen, I move:
That the amendment be amended by adding before the word ``communiqué''
and after the word ``the'' the words ``seditious nature of the''.
The Deputy Speaker: The amendment is acceptable in terms of
procedure.
668
[Translation]
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the cat is
finally out of the bag. The real problem is that we are sovereignists.
That is the problem. Since we are sovereignists, the Reform
members see us as enemies. That is the real problem. The worst is
that we are democratic sovereignists, and this is very serious.
It is serious, because it leads them to very inconsistent
arguments they should be ashamed of. They keep saying that the
situation is terrible, seditious, and that no punishment would be too
harsh for the hon. member for Charlesbourg in view of what he did.
If our colleague had sent a press release asking Quebec soldiers
everywhere in Canada to remain with the Canadian Armed Forces
in the event of a Yes vote, what would they have said?
This is inconsistent. Are you aware that a lot of Quebec soldiers
are sovereignists? One member of the Reform Party acknowledged
it in a press release. Quebec soldiers are first class citizens.
Pursuant to the partnership agreement we would sign with
Canadian citizens who will choose to be reasonable, Quebec
soldiers would have the right, in the event of a Yes vote, to transfer
their loyalty. The hon. member is not here anymore, but the press
release did not say that Quebec soldiers have to transfer their
loyalty right now. It did specify that, in the event the Yes wins in a
democratic process, these soldiers will be asked to join a Quebec
army to defend together a partnership, as we put it, and to take part
in operations pursuant to the agreements dealing with NATO,
NORAD, etc.
(1745)
So, I want to ask my colleague if he thinks it is worth making
such a fuss over a quite normal and democratic position. I also want
to know if he thinks Canadians will put their trust in such
incoherent and unreasonable people, in people who complain
because we asked soldiers from the province of Quebec to join a
Quebec army in the event the Yes wins. I have nothing more to add,
Mr. Speaker.
[English]
Mr. Abbott: Mr. Speaker, there are people in Canada who see
those who would take Quebec out of Canada as being the enemies
of Canada. Mr. Speaker, I will tell you that I am one of them and I
am speaking for those people.
It is incoherent in my judgment to speak of Quebec soldiers
when in fact we only have Canadian soldiers who have pledged
allegiance to Canada.
The point of my speech was not directed at these people because
the separatists are clearly defined. They are proud to be separatists.
They are proud to be attempting to break up Canada. They are
proud to be trying to take Quebec out of Canada.
I was looking at the Liberal members, who with their duplicity
have entered into a pact with the devil. They have turned around
and not taken any action to do anything about this. They have never
drawn any lines in the sand. They have completely mangled and
mismanaged the referendum and then have turned around and
blamed everybody from the CBC down through all other areas.
I suggest, although not by intent, I do not question the loyalty of
one single solitary member of the Liberal Party, but by their
actions, they are in bed with the separatists.
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: I will return to the official opposition, but
first the hon. member for Mississauga South has the floor.
[English]
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I want
to ask for the member's comment on something that was said by
the prior speaker about the issue of timing.
The letter regarding the day after was issued just prior to the
referendum. Yet the question in the referendum referred to an offer
to be made to the federal government if there was a vote. This
means that the timing to negotiate and consider an offer clearly
allowed more than enough time to consider the necessity to discuss
matters with the military.
This is a total contradiction in terms of the time line. It is why
this matter should be discussed in committee, so that the details
and the facts can get out.
Mr. Abbott: Mr. Speaker, that is good. I found a Liberal member
I can agree with. He is absolutely right.
The timing of this and the duplicity of the separatists during the
referendum was absolutely monumental. On one side of the coin,
we had a letter going out to the Canadian Armed Forces. On the
other side of the coin, we had the deputy premier of Quebec
sending out letters to the embassies around Ottawa. On the third
side of the coin, if there is such a thing, we now have the text of a
speech given by the former premier of Quebec which clearly states:
``Today you have made a decision. We are out of here. We are gone.
We are toast. We are history''. The duplicity was absolutely
profound.
With the greatest respect, in spite of the fact that I do agree with
the point made by the Liberal member, I also point out that if the
Liberals had handled this thing correctly and had put proper rules
in place before ever going into this referendum, we would not have
ended up with the very, very tight vote we had in the first place.
More people in Quebec would have understood the real issue.
There would have been a greater opportunity of exposing the
duplicity that was happening behind the scenes.
669
(1750 )
Again, I say with sadness to my friend on the Liberal side, I am
sorry it is his party that is the Government of Canada, it is his party
that is in charge of this issue and it is his party that is blowing the
drill.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier-Montcalm, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, before making my comment, I would like to bring to the
attention of the Chair that what the Liberals have just done to gag
us, is intolerable, considering that the Speaker told us right at the
beginning of the debate to be quiet, to listen calmly, that everyone
would have the right to speak, that everyone could speak on the
matter. Today, what does the government do? On the same day, it
wants to gag us on a most vital matter. If it is that important, it must
be discussed.
Second, in response to the last speaker, who says there is at least
one Liberal he agrees with. So far, dialogue has meant, for the
Liberals as well as for the Reformers, a sort of Siamese twin
dialogue between two bodies that share one head. They agree on
everything, and do you know why, because they are making
political capital at the expense of Quebecers, one member in
particular; they are judging the entire sovereignist movement. They
have never been able to stand the fact that we have been here since
October defending the interests of Quebecers. They have never
been able to stand our coming here to defend the sovereignist
movement, to defend what we Quebecers have wanted for a long
time. That is where the problem lies.
Now, to get to my question.
Mr. McTeague: The question.
Mr. Bellehumeur: Hold on, I am getting to it.
Mr. McTeague: What is the question?
Mr. Bellehumeur: I must say what I have to say, despite your
gag. Gagging us is what you are doing with your motions.
Now, getting to my question. I invite the hon. member to quote
one place in hon. member for Charlesbourg's communiqué where
there is a call for violence, for public disorder, where there is any
encouragement, recommendation, advising of members of the
Armed Forces to carry out any prohibited activity. Let him respond
to this question.
[English]
Mr. Abbott: Mr. Speaker, this is really a kind of star spangled
night. Not only can I agree with the Liberal member, I can agree
with the member from the Bloc, if in fact he is correct which my
colleagues tell me he is, that the Speaker has said that we were
going to have the opportunity to have freedom of speech in this
House of Commons for a change, unlike what the Liberals usually
do to us and have actually gone back on their word. So it is really
no surprise to be able to have that agreement.
I will quote from the communiqué. The Quebec military will
``respect the people's decision and will transfer their loyalty to the
new country whose security they will ensure''. I repeat, transfer
their loyalty. Those are the words from the communiqué. Loyalty is
defined as allegiance, faithfulness, devotion, fidelity, attachment
and patriotism. On the other hand, sedition is defined as revolt,
rebellion, revolution, insurrection, mutiny, unrest, riot, uprising,
defiance and disobedience. I suggest that on the words of defiance
and disobedience we have a case made for mutiny and sedition.
Mr. Nick Discepola (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor
General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as important as this
debate is, I find it deteriorating to some extent. We are deviating
totally from the motion. We in this House seem to be already
prejudging an act that one of our colleagues made.
The member for Kootenay East has asked several times why this
government has not acted before. As I only have a few seconds, I
would like to ask the member for Kootenay East a question his
colleague from Vegreville tried asking. I refer to page 29, citation
115 of Beauchesne. Since this question and debate has emanated
from a question of privilege, citation 115 clearly states: ``A
question of privilege must be brought to the attention of the House
at the first possible opportunity. Even a gap of a few days may
invalidate the claim for precedence in the House''.
As much respect as I have for the Chair for having ruled on that,
why is-
The Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. member for Kootenay
East.
(1755 )
Mr. Abbott: Mr. Speaker, the answer lies in the hon. member's
question. The Speaker of the House said that this is such a serious
issue that the delay is a moot point. That is a ruling of the Speaker
and as such it becomes a precedent in this House. I suggest the
member be careful that he not question the rulings of the Chair.
Mr. Ted McWhinney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister
of Fisheries and Oceans, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in intervening in this
debate I must record that I at times felt I was attending one of
Verdi's latter day operas, high opera. Marked sometimes with
opera bouffe I find to some extent the levity that was introduced in
the matter concerning the potential loss of privileges of a member
of Parliament rather disquieting. I take it that it relates to the
intensity and the passion of the debate.
I will focus on the roles and missions of Parliament today, which
I believe is the issue we should be debating. This includes what the
House is competent to do and what it is not competent to do.
670
The alleged remarks of the hon. member were not made in
Parliament, nor were they made by legal definition within the
rayon of Parliament which by extension has been known to include
government departments and the like. They would probably not
be covered by an argument of parliamentary privilege. To express
my own opinion, they would not be covered by parliamentary
privilege if the member was prosecuted in the ordinary courts.
One of the issues here concerns whether this is a matter for the
ordinary courts. In the case of a member of Parliament it would be
the civil courts. In the case of members of the armed forces, with
whom it is alleged there was some species of collusion, it would be
the military courts. I will return to that in a moment.
There has been a great deal of misunderstanding based perhaps
on a too rigid and unimaginative reading of old precedents
concerning the role of Parliament today. The phrase high court of
Parliament has been used but without an understanding of its
historical origins or the need to interpret it in the light of
contemporary developments in Parliament and in other institutions
that borrowed from the same British parliamentary model we
borrowed from.
There was an extensive review of Parliament's criminal powers
at the time of the impeachment issue in the United States, the
so-called Watergate scandal. I was consulted in a pre-parliamentary
capacity by the Senate Committee on Campaign Activities, the
Watergate committee. I gave opinions which were published at the
time. The great advantage of the Watergate scandal for our
purposes is the opportunity for discussion of the inherited criminal
powers of Parliament which the United States received as part of its
general reception of British law.
The basic point revolves around this issue of the impeachment
power which was written into the United States' constitution. There
is no doubt that in medieval times these were opportunities for
political fishing expeditions. There was no real pretence of a
criminal offence or anything else involved. It was a judgment
exercised by Parliament on the king's ministers in which the
subjective evaluation of their motives in exercising their powers
was at the core of the decision.
I mention this simply to say that the vestigial powers of
Parliament as the high court of Parliament are essentially limited
today by the evolution of the precedents and also by Parliament's
own deliberate legislative act of passing legislation it is limited to
the cluster of offences grouped around impeachment. There is a
reason for this. It is the tyranny of the majority that caused
successive Parliaments deliberately to limit by law the power to
expel members of Parliament.
There is legislation. It sets it out. It sets out the necessity for
convictions before the ordinary civil courts for specified offences,
but limited offences, what in contemporary terms we could still
call the felonies as they were understood under the common law.
(1800)
The correct procedure for a legislative body today would see the
power of expulsion being limited to acting on a conviction made by
the regular civil courts for a specified offence meeting the test of a
felony as it existed under the old common law. This has been done
simply to discipline the otherwise unregulated use of a majority's
power to expel people it did not like. We saw examples of this in
continental Europe between the two wars in the last days of the
Weimar Republic when it was used disgracefully.
Impeachment as such is not available in the case of a member
not being a government minister. Even if we go back to that, it is
limited to officers of the crown. I was asked by a senator the other
day, I presume not frivolously, whether it still availed. The answer
is yes but it is limited to government ministers. In the British
Parliament it has not been used since 1840 but is still there.
As to other matters, they are matters for the ordinary courts, but
Parliament can act and properly will act if so inclined on the
decisions of the civil courts. If a verdict of guilty were to be
returned in such a process, Parliament could be seized and exercise
its powers, including the powers to expel.
The problem that one sees in the present case is simply that one
understands the matters were taken up with crown counsel. It
would surprise me if they have not been because I received letters
from constituents asking me if there was a prima facie case. I
simply said consult or refer to crown counsel. They were referred
to crown counsel and apparently crown counsel have decided not to
pursue the matter.
If that is so, and it is beyond correction by senior crown counsel,
then it seems to me Parliament cannot retry the matter. It is not
simply a matter of the limits of competence of members of
Parliament to decide difficult issues of the law of evidence and the
like. It is a matter that the executive power has been used and
exercised to the full, and that is the end of the matter.
I support the reference of this issue to the committee on
procedure and House affairs mainly because I believe it will avoid
further debates of this sort, which sometimes seem to be without
any clear direction. A restatement by the committee of
Parliament's power to discipline its own members stated clearly
and concisely would be a help to this House.
I hope the committee will not assume it is its function to act as a
court of law. I do not think it would do the job very effectively. If
there are still remedies before the civil courts then it would be
possible for opposition members to utilize those remedies and take
the steps themselves. As far as Parliament is concerned, it is my
671
own opinion that we should obtain legal opinion at defining the
constitutional role of Parliament today.
My personal opinion, as expressed in the past, is that
Parliament's criminal law powers are limited to impeachment,
narrowly construed. In the case of the attempted Nixon
impeachment I came to the conclusion that judgment on political
acts was no longer part of the impeachment power. These things
became moot with the decision of the president to resign and the
matter never proceeded.
There are advantages in going to the committee on procedure
and House affairs. It may be that the committee, in spite of the
opinions I have expressed, will decide that Parliament should
resume criminal law powers, in effect control of members that have
lapsed effectively with the transfer of erstwhile powers of
Parliament to the ordinary courts.
(1805 )
In that case, I would be prepared to read the report and discuss it
on its merits. But under the present circumstances I think it has
been beyond Parliament's competence to discuss the merits of the
alleged act. I think it is not a proper use of our functions. I therefore
would welcome constitutional advice, a ruling from the committee
on procedure and House affairs.
[Translation]
Mr. Jean H. Leroux (Shefford, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I listened
very carefully to our honourable colleague, who gave us an
interesting and very different viewpoint. I think, in the present
matter, we have to ask ourselves what rights members have. A
member should be entitled to speak and to act. Time is also a
consideration.
I think what is happening is that the rest of Canada did not
understand what was going on in Quebec at the time: the members
of the Bloc Quebecois elected to this House are getting ready for
the big day. The big day is the day Quebec becomes sovereign,
fully sovereign. We are getting ready. We are involved in
committees of the House of Commons of Canada. We are learning
about defence, a federal jurisdiction at the moment. We are
learning.
I remember, when I was on the joint committee on national
defence, going to Edmonton when we were touring Canada to hear
witnesses. I asked three eminent professors, experts in the field of
defence, Canadian anglophones: ``Do you think a sovereign
Quebec should have its own army?'' Two of the three agreed that
Quebec should have its own army. The other said it depended.
According to him, there could be agreements between Canada and
Quebec and perhaps there could be a shared army.
I would like to ask my eminent colleague whether he thought
that the member for Charlesbourg said things in his communiqué
that were contrary to what one ought to expect?
Mr. McWhinney: Mr. Speaker, I will limit my answer to
Parliament's jurisdiction. I said that the statements made in the
member's communiqué had been made outside of the House, and
therefore were not covered by parliamentary privilege. He can be
prosecuted in civil court.
I only said that it had nothing to do with Parliament. In other
words, we are limited to the old impeachment process, which is
interpreted in a very restrictive manner nowadays.
The merits of his conversation, of his discourse, have nothing to
do with this House today. He is subject to civil court. It is up to him
to invoke his parliamentary privilege. I for one believe that his
parliamentary privilege does not apply when he is outside of the
House or of the parliamentary precinct. This is why I said that this
debate, by emphasizing what he said, is going beyond the mandate
and powers of Parliament.
[English]
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, I am listening very carefully to the debate and I
appreciate very much the hon. member's intervention this
afternoon.
On the question of whether or not it is in the purview of
Parliament to deal with this, I would point out that the communiqué
was written on the letterhead of the official opposition. That makes
it very much an issue that this Parliament should deal with.
The Speaker of the House ruled yesterday that it, in fact, does. I
would like to point out a couple of citations that may help the
member. I would like to say first that Parliament does whatever it
wants in the context of contempt of Parliament.
(1810)
Citation 28 of Beauchesne's sixth edition states:
Parliament is a court with respect to its own privileges and dignity and the
privileges of its Members.
Citation 49 states:
It is not necessary for the courts to come to a decision before the House acts.
In 1891 charges were laid in the House against Thomas McGreevy relating to
scandals in the Public Works Department. The Committee on Privileges and
Elections examined the evidence and concluded that the charges were amply
proven-The House judged Mr. McGreevy to be guilty of contempt of the
House as well as certain of the charges and ordered his expulsion.
This House ordered his expulsion.
There are other references to support the right of Parliament to
charge a member with whatever it wants. I would refer the House
672
to Joseph Maingot's ``Parliamentary Privilege in Canada'' at page
192, which states:
While privilege may be codified, contempt may not-there is no closed list of
classes of offences punishable as a contempt of Parliament.
I would refer the House to the Speaker's ruling of October 29,
1980, which stated:
The dimensions of contempt of Parliament is such that the House will not be
constrained in finding a breach of privilege of its Members or of the House. This
is precisely the reason that, while our privileges are defined, contempt of the
House has no limits.
I hope that helps the hon. member in his deliberations this
afternoon.
Mr. McWhinney: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his
question and also for the dispassionate way in which he presented it
in a debate which has become too heated on all sides of the House. I
will try to respond in the same spirit.
I agree, if the facts which the hon. member cites are correct, that
if letterhead was used for a non-parliamentary purpose, that there is
a breach of the privileges of the House. However, it probably would
come within the nature of trivial abuse; no more serious than
perhaps the way in which many members misuse parliamentary
letterhead. It would not bring in the gravamen of the offence being
alleged against the hon. member.
I have noted the precedent of 1891. I would tell the House that it
would meet the classic test of something committed within the
rayon of Parliament in the capacity of the minister in the public
works department. It simply brings back the issue that in dealing
with old precedents they have to be re-interpreted creatively in the
light of changed circumstances and the evolution of the concepts of
what Parliament can and should do to its members, including
opposition members. The precedents have to be interpreted in the
light of their creative growth. The trend is clearly to restrict
parliamentary powers, not to extend them.
The hon. member said, and I hope he will not mind my
correcting him, that Parliament can do whatever it wants. I think
the best answer to that is the answer which Chief Justice Coke gave
to King James I, that one is under God and the law. One is bound by
the constitutional law of Parliament. That is what we are trying to
decide today. That is what this debate is all about.
Frankly, the committee on procedure and House affairs would do
us a service if it set out coolly, clearly and without passion the
limits of parliamentary power today. If it thinks those powers
should be restated, let it indicate, on the basis of expert opinion,
how it thinks that should be done. However, it would commit a
grave error if it attempted to set itself up as a court of law hearing
the substance of the alleged offence. That would be beyond the
precedents as they now exist, properly interpreted.
(1815)
[Translation]
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I would
like my hon. colleague across the way to comment on what I am
going to say. I think that the problem we are facing because of the
third party has to do with our freedom of speech.
I will come right out and tell you that what my colleague from
Charlesbourg did in writing, many of us in the Bloc Quebecois
have done verbally. Some of those soldiers questioned me on the
draft bill introduced by Mr. Parizeau's government and I told them
something similar to what the hon. member for Charlesbourg wrote
in his communiqué.
Preventing me from doing that would amount to depriving me of
my freedom of speech. Can this freedom of speech be tested before
a committee of the House or does it go beyond the powers of this
House right up to the constitutional level? I would like to hear what
our hon. colleague has to say about this.
Mr. McWhinney: Mr. Speaker, I think that focusing on freedom
of speech is leading the debate away from the issue of Parliament's
constitutional law. For example, I have very often said things that
my audience was not too pleased to hear, but I understand that I
must comply with civil law when I make remarks or comments.
Outside this House, members become subject to civil law and
they become accountable. Up until now, no attempt had been made
to sue this member for what he said outside the House. That is what
we are dealing with here. As far as Parliament is concerned, except
in circumstances which are so rare now, given how the
constitutional law of Parliament has evolved, there is no substantial
issue for Parliament to decide. In my opinion, we are limited to the
scope of our privileges, as it stands today.
[English]
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I have many
questions but I will restrict myself to one, which the member is
eminently qualified to answer since he is a constitutional expert.
I believe the role of Parliament is to make laws which the courts
subsequently enforce.
Our original motion stated we should include the kind of actions
that were undertaken by the member as being under the definition
of seditious. Members on the other side as well as the members of
the official opposition missed that point. What we want to do is
clearly define sedition and counselling sedition.
673
Talk about losing your freedom of speech, it was taken away
from us by the Liberal amendment which deleted every word
before the word ``that'' and every word after the word ``that''. I
think that is the essence. Can we in Parliament pass such a law?
Mr. McWhinney: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member can be assured
that Parliament has the competence to enact whatever law it wishes
subject only to the limits imposed by the Constitution and the
charter of rights.
We were discussing the roles and missions of Parliament. The
correct arena for the honourable member would be to take up with
the House justice committee the question of possible amendments
to the Criminal Code in terms of the offence of sedition. That
would be a correct route to take and to present reasoned
amendments.
It is not for Parliament itself to go backwards to the 17th century
and try to set up a parallel system of criminal law covering matters
that are properly within the ambit of the Criminal Code.
The member should go to the justice committee if he has views
on this and present a project for amendment and see what happens.
This is not the correct arena.
(1820)
[Translation]
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski-Témiscouata, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, during my 35 year career at university, I have always been
able to recognize intelligence.
An hon. member: Did it often happen?
Mrs. Tremblay: It is very rare, but I would like to commend the
member for Vancouver Quadra for his remarkable performance in
this House.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Mrs. Tremblay: The member for Vancouver Quadra
understands the real problem and its significance. He first said that,
given the fact that our colleague issued a communiqué on October
26 outside Parliament, outside the House, he was no longer entitled
to his privileges, and that this matter must therefore settled in
court.
For the information of the member for Vancouver Quadra, who
may not have followed all the news-and I am not criticizing him
for that-the matter was brought before the courts twice, once in
Quebec and once in Ontario, in proceedings against our colleague
from Charlesbourg. In both cases, the action was dismissed. In one
case, the judge even said that he considered our colleague's
communiqué as a job offer. The issue, therefore, is clear. Taking
this to a civil court of law would not be very successful.
If civil proceedings do not work, and if the House is not
concerned-since he said in his last answer to our Reform Party
colleague whose riding I forgot that the House of Commons is the
wrong place to debate the question, having even told him to go to
the justice committee or introduce a bill-I hope the member for
Vancouver Quadra will not disappoint me tomorrow-since the
government has announced that it would gag the House-and will
in fact oppose the Reform Party's motion and, consequently, of
course, also oppose his party's amendment, which was cooked up
on the sly with the Reform Party's complicity. It is not something
to brag about, but I knew he was intelligent enough to avoid voting
on this amendment.
Now, I think it is also important to realize that the Reform
Party's motion is flawed. We were just told that the real intent of
the motion was to give a new definition of the word ``sedition''. As
I had some time this afternoon in the House, listening to all the
high flown rhetoric, I checked in the dictionaries we have here.
First, I discovered there were two meanings to the word
``sedition''. There is plain sedition and military sedition. Those are
two very different things.
Mr. Laurin: And that of the Reform Party.
Mr. Jacob: And that of the Reform Party.
Mrs. Tremblay: And it seems there is also the Reform Party
definition of sedition.
An hon. member: That is surely not in the dictionary.
Mrs. Tremblay: Their influence has not been strong enough yet
for that type of sedition to be entered in the dictionary.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Mrs. Tremblay: So, sedition means ``a rebellion against the
government in power''. I do not think it applies to our colleague.
The little communiqué was quite innocuous, and did not incite to
very much-
Some hon. members: Ha, ha.
Mrs. Tremblay: No, no, innocuous in the good sense of the
term.
There are also synonyms. I always said to my students at the
university-male or female, but I always spoke in the feminine
because in my opinion the majority should prevail in grammar as
well-that when you really wanted to define the meaning of the
word you had to look at all the synonyms to be sure to properly
define the concept. It is important to define concepts, especially
when you are trying to change a definition and include it in the
dictionary. It takes time.
The word sedition in its larger sense has three synonyms. The
first one is tumult. Sometimes, seeing the comments of the
Minister of Human Resources Development, you wonder whether
there is not a bit of sedition in his comments which certainly give
rise to tumultuous reactions.
674
(1825)
Another synonym is insurrection. Mr. Trudeau was really afraid
of that. He talked about apprehended insurrection, and we know the
result in Quebec in 1970: revolt.
Fortunately, on October 27-the day after the famous
communiqué-the people of Quebec behaved with dignity, because
the action of that Canada that loved us was a huge provocation that
could have led to revolt. So, this government could have been
accused of sedition.
Now, the military sedition. This is the one which we must deal
with, because my colleague was vice-chairman of the standing
committee on defence and official opposition critic for defence.
Military sedition is very interesting because, according to the
dictionary, we ought to refer to two words to better understand the
concept, the first being ``pronunciamento''. This is a Spanish word
which is found in the French dictionary. It is defined as an act by
which a military leader-you are accused of many defects, my dear
friend-or a group of military officers declares its refusal to obey
the government, or as any coup organized or favoured by the army.
Oh boy! It was not the right word, it does not make any sense.
The other synonym was putsch. You know, we are not very used
to this kind of thing, we are so distinct from the anglophone
community that we do not have a French word for ``military
sedition''. There is no such thing in our past, so we have to use a
Spanish word or an English word, putsch.
Under putsch, we find ``uprising'', ``coup de main by an armed
political group''. We are a political group, but we are not armed
with a view to taking power. You know that we have absolutely no
intention of assuming power here. So, there you are.
This little demonstration had to be made in the House to clearly
show that the Reform Party is very poorly organized, and there is
more to come.
Now, there is one thing that is very surprising. English Canada
woke up-as we know-on October 31, and has been having
terrible nightmares ever since. English Canadians have not read,
among other measures, Bill 1 tabled by Mr. Parizeau. There was a
great deal of discussions here on ``the question'', but they did not
bother to read the bill, including clause 17 which provided that the
government would take necessary measures for Quebec to continue
to participate in defence alliances of which Canada is a member.
The fact is that we would need soldiers to participate in these
alliances. We already had soldiers in Quebec. It would have been
silly to train more. I now go on: ``Such participation must,
however, be compatible with Québec's desire to give priority to the
maintenance of world peace under the leadership of the United
Nations Organization''.
In our meetings with soldiers, we explained that. We had a nice
little document with questions and answers. We had to give them
some information, as was pointed out by the hon. members for
Richelieu and Portneuf, among others. ``What will Quebec do,
about defence?'' Here is what we will do: ``We will have a small
army whose mandate will be to protect our territory, to give
assistance in natural disasters and to participate in the UN
peacekeeping missions. A sovereign Quebec will assume its
responsibility in collective security and defence through existing
international treaties like North Atlantic Treaty Organization and
North American Aerospace Defence Command''.
For that, we needed soldiers. We needed officers. We needed all
kinds of people. So, my colleague had the idea, the brilliant idea I
must say, to tell the members of the armed forces-like the
government had the idea to reassure our seniors by telling them that
it would cut their pensions-that if a majority of Quebecers were to
say yes, we would offer them a job. We never went further than
that. Finally, we had very interesting arguments that maybe we
should table in this House.
_____________________________________________
674
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[
English]
The House resumed from March 12 consideration of the motion
and the amendment.
The Deputy Speaker: It being 6.30 p.m., the House will now
proceed to the taking of the deferred division on the amendment.
Call in the members.
(The House divided on the amendment, which was negatived on
the following division:)
(Division No. 8)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
Benoit
Breitkreuz (Yorkton-Melville)
Chatters
Cummins
Duncan
Epp
Forseth
Frazer
Gilmour
Harper (Simcoe Centre)
Hart
Hayes
Hermanson
Hill (Macleod)
Hoeppner
Johnston
Mayfield
McClelland (Edmonton Southwest/Sud-Ouest)
Meredith
Morrison
Ramsay
Ringma
Scott (Skeena)
Solberg
Speaker
Stinson
White (North Vancouver) -28
675
NAYS
Members
Adams
Alcock
Allmand
Althouse
Arseneault
Assadourian
Asselin
Augustine
Bachand
Bakopanos
Barnes
Beaumier
Bélanger
Bélisle
Bellehumeur
Bergeron
Bernier (Beauce)
Bernier (Gaspé)
Bernier (Mégantic-Compton-Stanstead)
Bertrand
Bethel
Bevilacqua
Blaikie
Bodnar
Bonin
Boudria
Brien
Brown (Oakville-Milton)
Brushett
Bryden
Calder
Campbell
Cannis
Canuel
Cauchon
Chamberlain
Chan
Chrétien (Frontenac)
Clancy
Collenette
Comuzzi
Crawford
Crête
Culbert
Dalphond-Guiral
Daviault
de Jong
de Savoye
Debien
Deshaies
DeVillers
Dingwall
Discepola
Dromisky
Dubé
Duceppe
Duhamel
Dumas
Dupuy
Easter
English
Fewchuk
Fillion
Finestone
Flis
Fontana
Fry
Gaffney
Gagliano
Gagnon (Bonaventure-Îles-de-la-Madeleine)
Gagnon (Québec)
Gallaway
Gerrard
Godfrey
Godin
Goodale
Graham
Gray (Windsor West/Ouest)
Grose
Guarnieri
Guimond
Harb
Harvard
Hopkins
Hubbard
Ianno
Iftody
Irwin
Jackson
Jacob
Karygiannis
Keyes
Kirkby
Knutson
Lalonde
Landry
Langlois
Lastewka
Laurin
Lavigne (Beauharnois-Salaberry)
Lebel
LeBlanc (Cape/Cap-Breton Highlands-Canso)
Leblanc (Longueuil)
Lee
Leroux (Richmond-Wolfe)
Leroux (Shefford)
Loney
Loubier
MacAulay
MacDonald
MacLellan (Cape/Cap-Breton-The Sydneys)
Malhi
Maloney
Marchi
Marleau
McCormick
McGuire
McKinnon
McTeague
McWhinney
Ménard
Mercier
Mifflin
Milliken
Minna
Mitchell
Murphy
Murray
Nault
Nunziata
O'Reilly
Pagtakhan
Paradis
Paré
Parrish
Patry
Payne
Peric
Peters
Peterson
Phinney
Picard (Drummond)
Pickard (Essex-Kent)
Pillitteri
Plamondon
Pomerleau
Proud
Reed
Regan
Richardson
Ringuette-Maltais
Robichaud
Robillard
Rocheleau
Sauvageau
Scott (Fredericton-York-Sunbury)
Serré
Shepherd
Skoke
Solomon
Speller
St-Laurent
St. Denis
Stewart (Brant)
Stewart (Northumberland)
Szabo
Taylor
Telegdi
Terrana
Thalheimer
Tremblay (Rimouski-Témiscouata)
Tremblay (Rosemont)
Ur
Valeri
Venne
Verran
Volpe
Walker
Wappel
Wells
Whelan
Young
Zed-183
PAIRED MEMBERS
Axworthy (Winnipeg South Centre/Sud-Centre)
Bélair
Caron
Catterall
Cohen
Eggleton
Gauthier
Guay
Lefebvre
Nunez
(1855 )
The Speaker: I declare the amendment defeated.
The next question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the
House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Speaker: All those in favour of the motion will please say
yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Speaker: In my opinion the nays have it.
And more than five members having risen:
Mr. Boudria: Mr. Speaker, if you were to seek it I believe you
would find unanimous consent that the members who are recorded
as having voted on the previous motion be recorded as having
voted on the motion now before the House with Liberal members
voting nay on this motion.
[Translation]
Mrs. Dalphond-Guiral: Mr. Speaker, the Official Opposition
members will be proud to vote yes.
[English]
Mr. Ringma: Mr. Speaker, we will need a recorded vote because
I do not have unanimity.
Mr. Solomon: Mr. Speaker, the New Democrats in the House
today, including the member for Burnaby-Kingsway, will be
voting yes on this motion.
The Speaker: I do not know if I understood or I heard correctly.
The hon. whip of the Reform Party.
676
Mr. Ringma: Mr. Speaker, the majority of my members will
likely vote yes to this. There are some who would choose to vote
no. We are going to have to canvass at least the Reform to get
their vote.
The Speaker: We do not know at this point how many members
we are talking about.
Mr. Ringma: Mr. Speaker, may I suggest that you simply
canvass the Reform to see how many nays there are, the rest will
vote yes.
(The House divided on the motion, which was negatived on the
following division:)
(Division No. 9)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
Althouse
Asselin
Bachand
Bélisle
Bellehumeur
Benoit
Bergeron
Bernier (Gaspé)
Bernier (Mégantic-Compton-Stanstead)
Blaikie
Breitkreuz (Yorkton-Melville)
Bridgman
Brien
Canuel
Chatters
Chrétien (Frontenac)
Crête
Cummins
Dalphond-Guiral
Daviault
de Jong
de Savoye
Debien
Deshaies
Dubé
Duceppe
Dumas
Fillion
Forseth
Frazer
Gagnon (Québec)
Gilmour
Godin
Guimond
Harper (Simcoe Centre)
Hart
Hermanson
Hill (Macleod)
Jacob
Johnston
Lalonde
Landry
Langlois
Laurin
Lavigne (Beauharnois-Salaberry)
Lebel
Leblanc (Longueuil)
Leroux (Richmond-Wolfe)
Leroux (Shefford)
Loubier
Mayfield
McClelland (Edmonton Southwest/Sud-Ouest)
Ménard
Mercier
Meredith
Paré
Picard (Drummond)
Plamondon
Pomerleau
Ramsay
Robinson
Rocheleau
Sauvageau
Scott (Skeena)
Solberg
Solomon
Speaker
St-Laurent
Stinson
Taylor
Tremblay (Rimouski-Témiscouata)
Tremblay (Rosemont)
Venne
White (North Vancouver)-75
NAYS
Members
Adams
Alcock
Allmand
Arseneault
Assadourian
Augustine
Bakopanos
Barnes
Beaumier
Bélanger
Bernier (Beauce)
Bertrand
Bethel
Bevilacqua
Bhaduria
Bodnar
Bonin
Boudria
Brown (Oakville-Milton)
Brushett
Bryden
Calder
Campbell
Cannis
Cauchon
Chamberlain
Chan
Clancy
Collenette
Comuzzi
Crawford
Culbert
DeVillers
Dingwall
Discepola
Dromisky
Duhamel
Duncan
Dupuy
Easter
English
Epp
Fewchuk
Finestone
Flis
Fontana
Fry
Gaffney
Gagliano
Gagnon (Bonaventure-Îles-de-la-Madeleine)
Gallaway
Gerrard
Godfrey
Goodale
Graham
Gray (Windsor West/Ouest)
Grose
Guarnieri
Harb
Harvard
Hayes
Hoeppner
Hopkins
Hubbard
Ianno
Iftody
Irwin
Jackson
Karygiannis
Keyes
Kirkby
Knutson
Lastewka
LeBlanc (Cape/Cap-Breton Highlands-Canso)
Lee
Loney
MacAulay
MacDonald
MacLellan (Cape/Cap-Breton-The Sydneys)
Malhi
Maloney
Marchi
Marleau
McCormick
McGuire
McKinnon
McTeague
McWhinney
Mifflin
Milliken
Minna
Mitchell
Morrison
Murphy
Murray
Nault
Nunziata
O'Reilly
Pagtakhan
Paradis
Parrish
Patry
Payne
Peric
Peters
Peterson
Phinney
Pickard (Essex-Kent)
Pillitteri
Proud
Reed
Regan
Richardson
Ringuette-Maltais
Robichaud
Robillard
Scott (Fredericton-York-Sunbury)
Serré
Shepherd
Skoke
Speller
St. Denis
Stewart (Brant)
Stewart (Northumberland)
Szabo
Telegdi
Terrana
Thalheimer
Ur
Valeri
Verran
Volpe
Walker
Wappel
Wells
Whelan
Young
Zed-138
PAIRED MEMBERS
Axworthy (Winnipeg South Centre/Sud-Centre)
Bélair
Caron
Catterall
Cohen
Eggleton
Gauthier
Guay
Lefebvre
Nunez
(1910 )
The Speaker: I declare the motion defeated.
>
677
677
ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
[
English]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed
to have been moved.
Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur (Lambton-Middlesex, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, on February 29 I asked the Minister for International
Trade why Canada chose to conclude an agreement in principle
with the United States on matters relating to softwood lumber
rather than take this dispute to a NAFTA dispute resolution panel.
This is the process we chose in 1994 after the U.S. imposed a
duty on imported Canadian lumber. The duty was overturned by a
bilateral panel which ruled that Canada stumpage fees do not
constitute an unfair subsidy as was claimed by a U.S. lumber lobby.
The U.S. appealed the decision to an extraordinary challenge
committee which again ruled in Canada's favour.
According to the minister, the U.S. congress looked on these
defeats and simply changed the laws. Rather than go through the
uncertainty involved in another NAFTA panel process, the
Government of Canada, several provinces and the lumber industry
chose to make a deal with the Americans.
The crux of the matter is that NAFTA does not prevent United
States' industries from using protectionist countervailing duties to
harass Canadian exporters. It only provides that a binational panel
can review U.S. governmental determinations to see if U.S. law has
been applied correctly.
(1915)
Obviously this is a serious flaw within the NAFTA. There are no
clear cut rules on subsidies, nor are there any real definitions of
what constitutes a subsidy. These are shortcomings that must be
remedied as soon as possible.
In the meantime in appears we are engaged in a war of attrition
with American protectionist forces, which is only intensified
during an election year in the United States. The minister knows
the Americans have applied to set up a NAFTA panel to rule on the
legality of Canada's set of tariffs on supply managed commodities,
which were negotiated during the last round of GATT. The United
States is also signatory to this agreement. According to its reading
of events Washington now claims that NAFTA takes precedence
over the GATT agreement and that Canada's tariffs must be
eliminated.
I am confident that Canada will emerge victorious from this
most recent NAFTA panel decision. The fact remains there is
nothing to stop the United States from launching an extraordinary
challenge or from changing its laws again. What does Canada do
then? Do we continue to stand by the principles of NAFTA, flawed
as they may be, or do we simply throw in the towel on our dairy,
egg and poultry producers? I am sure the Minister for International
Trade will agree with me that this case is shaping up as the largest
trade dispute ever between Canada and the United States.
However, even if Canada wins the case, and I am sure we will,
under the current atmosphere of rising American protectionism this
battle could drag on for several more years for the reasons I have
just alluded to.
Let us be clear what is at stake here. According to a study
conducted by economic forecasters, if the United States succeeds
in knocking down the tariff wall that covers Canada's dairy, egg
and poultry producers, by the year 2000 the opening border will
wipe out 28,000 Canadian farms, farming and food processing
jobs. This would result in $3.4 billion in lost sales and would cost
the government $2.7 billion in lost taxes.
Obviously if the upcoming NAFTA panel decision on the
legality of Canada's tariff levels were to go against Canada we
would have a very serious problem on our hands. What I would like
to know, and perhaps the Minister for International Trade can tell
me, is in the event of a Canadian victory what steps will he take to
ensure these GATT negotiated tariffs are not simply bargained
away through a special deal with the protectionist minded
Americans? Will the minister go to the wall for Canada's dairy, egg
and poultry producers?
Mr. Ron MacDonald (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister
for International Trade, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the member for
Lambton-Middlesex has been quite vigilant in bringing the
interests of Canadian agricultural producers to the forefront each
time she speaks in the House of Commons. The minister and the
government listened very carefully to the concerns she raised.
In answer to the specific question, it is the hope of the
government that actions to reach an agreement with the United
States were done to put an end to almost 15 years of litigation
between Canada and U.S. softwood lumber producers. I know the
member is fully aware that although we have remedies under the
NAFTA, many times our counterparts in the U.S. seem to become
engaged with frivolous disputes which tie up the system for an
undue length of time.
This was one of the considerations the Canadian government had
to look at when the latest dispute arose. The Canadian industry and
provincial governments decided negotiating an acceptable
agreement to guarantee security of access to the U.S. market was
preferable to the uncertainties and costs of fighting a countervail
duty case.
I remind the House that in order to take the softwood lumber
dispute to a NAFTA chapter 19 panel the United States would have
to first launch a countervailing duty investigation and determine
that Canadian lumber exports to the U.S. were being subsidized
and conclude that U.S. producers were being injured. Furthermore,
if it had so decided, the United States would have imposed the duty
on Canadian softwood lumber exports. Such a duty would have had
significant negative impacts on the Canadian lumber industry and
its employees.
678
This industry is extremely important to Canada. It employs
about 60,000 people across the country. Canadian exporters of
softwood lumber to the U.S. reached record levels in 1995 of over
$8 billion. This represents approximately 60 per cent of Canadian
softwood lumber production. The value of these exports has grown
substantially since 1990.
Therefore in striking a deal with the U.S. the agreement is
designed to avoid another long, protracted and costly trade battle.
The agreement which comes into effect on April 1, 1996 will give
Canadian softwood lumber exporters security of market access to
the U.S. market for five years.
I also assure the member that this deal should not looked at as a
precedent. I do not think it is. The hon. member would find that the
Minister for International Trade and the government will, as she
said, go to the wall to protect the interests of Canadian supply side
manufacturers, as we have the right to do under the GATT
agreement.
Softwood lumber was a very special case. I assure the member
her concerns and those of the people she represents will be taken
into consideration in any future plans that the Government of
Canada has with respect to supporting our producers.
The Speaker: Pursuant to Standing Order 38(5), the motion to
adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted.
Accordingly, the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10
a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 7.20 p.m.)