CONTENTS
Monday, April 29, 1996
Bill C-220. Motion for second reading 2033
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West) 2041
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West) 2047
Mrs. Brown (Calgary Southeast) 2049
Mrs. Dalphond-Guiral 2061
Mr. Gagnon (Bonaventure-Îles-de-la-Madeleine) 2061
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West) 2064
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West) 2064
Mr. Lavigne (Beauharnois-Salaberry) 2067
Mr. Lavigne (Beauharnois-Salaberry) 2067
Mr. Axworthy (Winnipeg South Centre) 2069
Bill C-33. Motions for introduction and first readingdeemed
adopted 2070
Consideration resumed of motion 2070
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West) 2073
Mr. Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca) 2075
Mr. Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca) 2078
Mr. White (North Vancouver) 2086
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West) 2089
Mr. White (North Vancouver) 2094
Motion agreed to on division: Yeas, 154; Nays, 24 2097
Bill C-31 . Consideration resumed of motion for secondreading 2098
Amendment to the amendment negatived on division:Yeas, 60;
Nays, 118 2098
Amendment negatived on division: Yeas, 60;Nays, 118 2099
Motion agreed to on division: Yeas, 118; Nays, 60 2099
(Bill read the second time and referred to a committee.) 2100
Bill C-216. Consideration resumed of motion for secondreading 2100
Motion agreed to on division: Yeas, 147; Nays, 25 2100
(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referredto a
committee.) 2101
2033
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Monday, April 29, 1996
The House met at 11 a.m.
_______________
Prayers
_______________
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[
English]
Mr. John Solomon (Regina-Lumsden, NDP) moved that Bill
C-220, an act respecting the energy price commission, be read the
second time and referred to a committee.
He said: Madam Speaker, I am very pleased and proud as a
member of Parliament representing part of Canada to stand in the
House this morning and move at second reading Bill C-220, which
I have put together in consultation with thousands of Canadians.
The purpose of the bill is to establish an energy price
commission to regulate the wholesale and retail price of gasoline.
The purpose of price regulation is to avoid unreasonable increases
that affect the cost of living and depress business activity.
The bill will facilitate reasonable consistency in prices from
province to province, allowing for production and distribution
costs. The regulation further minimizes the risk of collusion in
pricing and prevents dominant suppliers from setting unreasonable
prices.
The bill also links the issue of price control to competition. Any
investigation of an alleged offence under the Competition Act
related to gasoline pricing is remitted by the competition tribunal
to the commission for investigation, which reports to the tribunal
before it makes a determination or order on the matter.
The bill is extremely timely and important. I am asking all
members to consider supporting the bill in any way they can
because it relates to the pricing of gasoline. It relates to, in essence,
the consumption of energy by Canadians. Whether you are a
farmer, a business person or a consumer, energy and gasoline are
the key components of our economic well-being.
We have a very cold climate. We require more energy in terms of
industry, more energy in terms of transportation, more energy in
terms of moving goods and services around the country. Moving
goods takes energy; gasoline and oil.
It is a key element of our economy. We have not seen any
government initiatives or a wish of parliamentarians to ensure
consumers, farmers and business people are treated fairly in
relation to this commodity by the oil companies.
Instead we see the opposite. Parliamentarians and the
government look at this issue and say there are only five oil
companies in the country that basically set the price of gasoline and
we should let these five oil companies do whatever they please. It is
more important for us to regulate everything else under the sun, in
many cases things which affect not the entire country or the entire
economy but one-tenth of one per cent of one organization or
one-tenth of one per cent of this and that.
I am asking parliamentarians and the Government of Canada to
consider the impact of gasoline pricing in Canada, particularly the
developments over the last 30 to 35 days. Gasoline prices in most
regions of Canada have increased by 10 cents per litre, a 30 per cent
increase in net revenues to the oil companies when taxes are
factored out.
There has been a 30 per cent increase in 30 days, and what
response has the government taken? It has turned the other way. It
has ignored Canadians. It has ignored this blatant effort by the oil
companies to gouge Canadians on an absolutely necessary
commodity and element of our economy, the engine of our
economy. It has turned a blind eye to the fact that this is a
non-renewable resources.
One cent of the ten cent increase takes about $375 million out of
the pockets of Canadians. If this 10 cent per litre increase is upheld
over the next year it will result in almost $4 billion being taken out
of consumers' pockets.
Why is this happening? The oil companies say the price of crude
oil has increased in the last 30 days from $18 per barrel to $23 per
barrel U.S. There is some validity to that. The price has increased.
However, let us put it in context and look at the average daily price
of oil in Canada.
Since 1990 the average daily price of crude oil in Canada has
declined year after year. In 1992 the average daily price of crude
was about $20.58 per barrel U.S. For the first part of 1996 up to
mid-April the average daily price is not $20.58, but 50 cents per
barrel less. However, we have seen a 30 per cent increase in the
2034
price of gasoline. My information is from energy and mines
concerning the average daily price of gasoline.
This year the price per barrel is 50 cents less than it was four
years ago, and the price has been lower in between. Yet the oil
companies say the price of crude has gone up, that they have to jack
up the prices and gouge Canadians because the government will not
respond in any fashion at all.
They give the excuse that they are not doing very well in terms
of profits. Let us have a look at that. In 1994 Imperial Oil had a 29
per cent increase in profits over 1993. Shell had a 43 per cent
increase. In 1995 Imperial Oil had a 43 per cent increase in profits
over the previous year, one of its record years. Shell, which had a
record year in 1994, in 1995 had a 63 per cent increase in profits.
Imperial Oil, in spite of the profits, employed 452 fewer
employees, and Shell employed 471 fewer employees.
(1110)
In the first quarter of this year before the price kicked in and
went up in terms of the price per barrel, Imperial Oil had a 300 per
cent increase in its first quarter profits over last year, which was its
record year.
Factoring out some of the differentials, it says because of that we
had a tax rebate. Factor out the tax rebate and it still had a 15 per
cent increase after excluding the windfall rebate from the taxpayers
of Canada. That does not wash.
Imperial Oil employees tell me that in spite of record profits they
were called into their offices across the country and were told 10
per cent of the employees of Imperial Oil are history in the next 18
months, not on the basis of attrition, retirement or vacancies but on
the basis that the 10 per cent lowest productive workers in the
company are gone.
What kind of corporation is this? What kind of response does the
government have to oil companies gouging at the gas pumps,
making record profits and laying off people at record levels and not
responding to the corporations and saying we are all in the same
boat together? This is our country. We have an economy in trouble.
How about chipping in and investing some of their money in
employee wages or keeping their employees? How about
reinvesting some of this money in capital or exploration projects in
the communities in which they earn the profits, and then share the
rest of the profits with whomever they want? We do not care.
Take some corporate responsibility. Where is the leadership in
this country? The other reason they talk about the gas prices going
up is that every day the price goes up. They have to adjust the price
of gasoline. In the gulf war of 1990 they said they had a 90-day
supply. There was a 90-day inventory before the prices went up.
This recent increase was 90 hours, not 90 days, an obvious attempt
to gouge.
As well, what about the thousands of products produced from a
barrel of oil? A barrel of oil does not produce only gasoline. It
produces 10,000 different products. Half the things in the House of
Commons are produced from crude oil derivatives: clothing,
plastic glasses, TV cameras, VCRs, fridges and stoves; all
derivatives of oil.
They do not fluctuate from minute to minute and region to
region. The oil companies have to be accountable and called before
a commission to justify their price increases. I am a business
person. I have no problem with businesses making profits as long
as they do not gouge people, as long as they justify the price they
are charging for their products and services. That is not a key
problem here. These companies are not justifying the increases
they are making.
They give us comparisons. They say the price of gas in other
countries is much higher than in Canada. They give me a list of
industrialized nations. In all the industrialized nations gas prices
are higher than ours, except in the U.S.
I asked the Petroleum Producers Institute and the oil companies
how many of these countries produce oil. The only net producer on
that piece of paper is Canada. Yet we are the second lowest gas
sellers.
I asked about a comparison of countries that actually produce
oil. ``Duh, we do not have a list. We will track it down for you''.
They do not have to because we have the list. Of all the producing
countries in the world, Mexico, Venezuela and the Middle Eastern
countries, along with other parts of the world that produce oil, their
gasoline prices when taxes are factored out are much lower than in
Canada. We are the highest of the net producers in the world. Why?
We allow the oil companies to get away with not justifying their
price increases.
The most ludicrous response I heard from the oil companies was
the reason the prices are going up is that Iraq may be bringing
production out of the markets. Economics 101 says very plainly
that argument is a laughable falsity. If more production is coming
on the market, more supply, less demand, the price goes down.
They think people are airheads in this country. I do not think people
appreciate that sort of ridiculous response from the oil companies.
What we have to look at is what is important for Canadians, what
is important for Canada. A question in a recent poll in the Regina
Leader-Post, April 22, was should the federal government move to
regulate the retail price of gasoline. Of 3,786 respondents, 3,519
said yes, 93 per cent; 267 or 7 per cent said no.
2035
(1115 )
Saskatchewan produces 15 per cent of the oil in Canada.
Looking at the regional price of gasoline in Regina, it is higher
where there is a refinery than in places the oil is transported to.
When the tax differential is factored out the price is actually the
highest in the whole country.
Why? Spring seeding is starting and farmers make bulk fuel
purchases so the oil companies say: ``Let us rip off the farmers. The
New Democrat member of Parliament for Regina-Lumsden keeps
raising the issue across the country. Let us pull his chain a bit and
gouge the consumers in his home province. There is an NDP
government in Saskatchewan. It is one of only three provincial
governments that have balanced budgets, fair tax rates and which
are protecting social programs. Let us jerk their chains and give
them a little shot''.
All I am asking is that parliamentarians consider setting up an
energy price review commission so that oil companies can justify
their price increases before it. By the same token governments
should appear before the commission to justify tax increases and
make sure they are fair to taxpayers.
Governments and parliamentarians have obligations. We are
obligated in many ways to be the balance to the economic powers
that run our economy. We are obligated to protect consumers when
they are unfairly gouged by an oligopoly, a monopoly or a
company. That is our obligation. We are paid to hold those people
who influence and control the economy accountable in a fair
manner for Canadians. That is all we are asking people to consider
this morning.
The response has been: Why would we want to regulate the oil
industry? I have mentioned in some of my arguments that it is a
non-renewable natural resource. It is a key engine to our economy.
We must also consider that we regulate all sorts of other things.
We regulate communications. The CRTC regulates radio and
television broadcasting. There are 1,000 companies out there which
could give us our communications services. There are satellite
dishes, cable companies and a number of television and radio
stations in every region. It is good that they are regulated because
consumers are provided with an even, balanced view of the world.
Communications does not influence and control our entire
economy, although it is important to the economy. There is no
doubt about that. Energy is the key component for everything but
we disregard it and let the five major oil companies do what they
like.
We could mention to the competition bureau that we think the oil
companies are fixing prices. In one hour all the gasoline prices in
this region went up to the same level. The bureau's response was:
``We do not have anything in writing from the president of one oil
company to another saying they should fix prices. We cannot
pursue this because we need some evidence''. People have told me
that the bureau of competition policy is laughable. We do regulate
other business and industries to the advantage of Canadians.
I could go on. I have information members would be willing to
listen to, but I know my time has almost expired. I know the
Minister of Health is very anxious to hear more. I am very anxious
also to meet with him after to give him more information if he
wishes, particularly about health care. I could offer him some
advice on that too.
At this moment, I would like to ask for unanimous consent for a
vote to refer Bill C-220 to the Standing Committee on Industry.
(1120 )
The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais): Do we have
unanimous consent to change the reference to a committee on this
bill?
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Solomon: Madam Speaker, I am sorry to hear that some
MPs will not give unanimous consent. I would therefore ask for
unanimous consent to refer the subject matter of the bill to the
Standing Committee on Industry.
The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais): Is there
unanimous consent to send the subject matter to the Standing
Committee on Industry?
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Solomon: Madam Speaker, I notice that the Liberal member
for Dauphin-Swan River did not provide unanimous consent.
That is unfortunate. I was born in Dauphin and I am getting all
kinds of calls from her constituents saying that we should be
undertaking a review.
Finally, I would ask members for their unanimous consent to
make this bill votable.
The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais): Is there
unanimous consent to make the bill votable?
Some hon. members: No.
Mrs. Marlene Cowling (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister
of Natural Resources, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I appreciate the
opportunity to participate in the debate about a proposed energy
price commission.
The hon. member for Regina-Lumsden has provided an
opportunity to discuss the cost of a commodity which is vital to the
daily lives of us all: gasoline. He is quite right. The cost of
petroleum affects the cost of everything in this country.
Transportation is part of the cost of everything we do. It affects
virtually every product and service we buy or sell.
Coming from a rural community in Manitoba I know that
nowhere is this more true than on the farm. Fuel costs are a large
part of farm inputs. Even the smallest change in the price of fuel
can make a big difference to the farmer's bottom line. As a
2036
government we know this and that is why we did not increase fuel
taxes in the recent budget. Food, clothing, shelter and even the cost
of finding and holding a job is affected by the price of the fuel
which literally drives our economy.
The hon. member for Regina-Lumsden is quite right. The cost
of fuel should be reasonable and affordable. However, there are
several major areas on which we do not agree.
Clause 8 of the bill states that every person who sells gasoline
must obtain approval of the price from the government. That is not
at all what Canadians want. The taxpayers of Canada do not want
another bureaucracy as a solution to a perceived problem. The
people of Canada do not want a new petroleum price police
investigating who is paying what price for what product.
If this bill were passed, the federal government would be,
according to Canadian law, infringing on provincial jurisdiction,
intruding unnecessarily into competitive markets and spending
large amounts of taxpayers' money.
I can assure hon. members that the idea of a new energy price
commission cannot be supported by the Minister of Natural
Resources nor the Minister of Industry. The reason is that study
after study has concluded that government regulation on petroleum
prices simply does not work.
Over the last 20 years, in every province except one, provincial
governments have abandoned, rejected or never even considered
the regulation of gasoline prices. The sole exception is Prince
Edward Island and where are the highest gasoline prices in Canada,
excluding taxes? Prince Edward Island.
In Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec,
Ontario and Manitoba, petroleum prices and proposals to regulate
them have been studied by government boards, task forces,
commissions and legislative committees. The federal government
has also studied the matter extensively. Here is a small sampling of
the reports.
In 1987 a commission of inquiry into gasoline pricing in
Manitoba declared:
Regulation of gasoline-markets by means of hearings and the usual process
of regulatory bodies is-not advisable-.Crude oil and gasoline
markets-continuously change, making regulation impractical, and
introducing distortions, since it would not be possible to adjust prices quickly
enough.
This form of regulation would-force the price upon all market participants
through legal coercion.
Canadians consider that coercion, legal or otherwise, is not a
norm in this country.
(1125 )
In 1986 in a report on the petroleum industry, the federal
Restrictive Trade Practices Commission discussed the maze of
restrictions which inevitably follows the introduction of price
regulation:
Such restrictions (in facilities, hours, types of operation) cripple the ability of
the industry to meet consumer demand, and to charge lower prices made
possible by lower cost of distribution-induced by competitive measures or
pressures.
The variety of offerings across the country by independent marketers and by
integrated firms illustrates the value of allowing each business the freedom to
meet consumer needs as it sees fit-to strive at all times to maximize its appeal
to-the public by giving them what they want.
Giving the public what they want, not what a government, a board,
a committee or a new national energy price commission thinks they
want.
What is remarkable about these many reports is how relevant
they are today. The same analyses, assessments and judgments
apply today as they did 10 or 20 years ago. The principal difference
is that today Canadians are more conscious than ever of the
advantages of business versus government in delivering goods and
services, what they want, when they want it, at a price they want to
pay. The fact is gasoline markets today exhibit all the
characteristics of a competitive market.
One of the roles of Natural Resources Canada is to provide
Canadians with current data. The department constantly monitors
prices across Canada to determine relevant facts about gasoline
marketing.
The federal government already has an agency with a mandate to
monitor competition and investigate complaints: the competition
bureau. This is where dealers or consumers can bring any evidence
they have of anti-competitive behaviour.
It is illegal for retailers to agree among themselves to set prices
that may lessen or prevent competition, to try to influence another
retailer's prices by agreement, threat or promise, or to persuade
wholesalers to cut off gasoline supplies to discount retailers
because of their lower prices. Any Canadian may report alleged
offences to the competition bureau by mail, by fax, or by calling a
toll free telephone number.
With regard to this bill, I offer three principal facts. Petroleum
prices come under provincial jurisdiction. Agencies which regulate
prices have in the past consistently led to prices which are not
lower but higher. Most important, there is overwhelming evidence
that we do indeed have vigorous competition in the marketing of
petroleum products. These are compelling reasons why in 1996
informed Canadian consumers and taxpayers do not consider, do
not need and do not want an energy price commission.
2037
Few people are ever completely satisfied with the price and
quality of goods and services they buy. No doubt all of us would
like to buy gasoline at prices lower than they are today.
From the report of the groups commissioned over the last 20
years to study petroleum prices the conclusion is clear, unequivocal
and straightforward: In 1996 the last thing people want in this
country is a new petroleum price police. The last thing we need in
this country is an energy price commission.
This Liberal government is committed to the future, not the past.
What we want is not more but less bureaucracy, not closed but open
markets and not less but more choice.
[Translation]
Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Terrebonne, BQ): Madam Speaker,
first of all, I will admit that after listening closely to the two
previous speeches by our colleagues from the other two parties and
despite our friendship for our colleague from Regina-Lumsden
who introduced this bill, we unfortunately cannot support Bill
C-220 for the various reasons I will explain during my
presentation.
(1130)
Again, the purpose of this bill is to establish an energy price
commission to regulate the wholesale and retail price of gasoline.
In our opinion and that of the government party-and according to
my own observations-this bill would give the government the
authority to meddle in a flagrant and unjustified manner in the
normal process of free market pricing, which goes against the
global trend of market pricing of gasoline in this case.
On the one hand, history shows that setting a ceiling price on
gasoline can be dangerous and even create some serious shortages
since oil companies tend to sell less when prices are low-and this
is normal-while demand increases. They thus stockpile their
products. These shortages can lead to quota problems, waiting lines
and corruption, as we saw in some countries in South America and
Asia.
On the other hand, the setting of a ceiling price by the
commission could also result in an economic slowdown for oil
producers in western Canada.
An example of an unsuccessful attempt to control gas prices is
the national energy policy-as many members on the other side
will recall-initiated by former Prime Minister Trudeau during the
oil crisis, which, as you may recall, caused widespread discontent
at the time.
In fact, every time the federal government interferes in the oil or
energy sector, as in the case of the Varennes tokamak, Quebec loses
out. If an energy price commission is established, as my colleague
proposes by introducing Bill C-220, it should review not only gas
prices but also the injustices done to Quebec through past federal
interventions. This commission could perhaps recommend that the
House give Quebec a generous compensation like that given to the
maritimes for harmonizing the GST.
We would then try to set the amount of this compensation. An
example of the injustices that could be reviewed by this
commission is the impact of the famous Borden line imposed by
the federal government in the 1960s. Members will remember that
the Borden line energy policy systematically blocked the
development of Montreal's oil production from Venezuelan and
Middle Eastern imports by completely closing the market of those
provinces located west of the line, to protect western oil
development.
However, the policy was abolished when world prices started to
rise quickly between 1973 and 1977. This resulted in the oil
production from Sarnia and the prairies flooding the eastern
Canadian market, in the closure of most Montreal refineries and in
the loss of thousands of jobs. In addition to refineries disappearing
because of this totally unjust policy towards Quebec, our whole
petrochemical industry was also severely affected.
To this day, Quebec, and particularly the Montreal region, still
suffers from the consequences of this policy implemented by the
federal government of the day. Unlike the maritimes now, for the
GST, Quebec was never compensated for its heavy losses. If the
commission that the hon. member hopes to establish with Bill
C-220 does become reality some day, perhaps it ought to take a
look at the issue of compensation for Quebec.
The commission could also look at the development of the
Athabasca tar sands. It should definitely not limit its role to
regulating gasoline prices, but should look at the current
investments being made to produce gasoline in Canada. Perhaps it
should also examine the famous Hibernia project, that
cock-and-bull story which has cost taxpayers in Quebec and
Canada astronomical amounts of money. This is another example
of failed federal involvement in the energy sector, which has had
serious consequences on the economy as a whole. This project was
launched before the 1989 federal election. Now, the current
government is trying to get out of it.
(1135)
At election time, the government had decided to withdraw from
that project. However, it has since absorbed 25 per cent of the
production costs. The government allocated over $1 billion to that
project, but that was not enough. In addition, the present
government promised loan guarantees corresponding to 40 per cent
of construction loans, up to $1.66 billion.
A promise was made to stop using the taxpayers' money for this
scheme. But a promise was made to scrap the GST and that was not
kept, a promise was made to cancel the helicopters and that was not
kept, a promise was made to cancel the Pearson Airport contract
2038
and that was not kept, a promise was made by the Clark
government to put a limit on the price of gasoline-which led to
their defeat-and that was not kept. However, the federal
government was probably quoted out of context or forgot about that
promise too, and continued to pour more money down that drain.
The energy price commission, which my hon. colleague would
like to see established, would have a field day if we gave it a
mandate to investigate this matter.
But getting back to Hibernia, Ottawa then spent $350 million
buying back 25 per cent of Gulf's shares in the Hibernia project. In
addition, Ottawa financed the shares acquired by Murphy. And to
top it off, it gave deductions and tax credits to Murphy, Mobil and
Chevron, oil companies raking in billions of dollars, to reduce their
income taxes, poor things, and the government gave them interest
free loans, guaranteeing them benefits in the event that they were
unable to take advantage of these deductions and these credits.
Chevron and Mobil each took advantage of $40 million in
interest free loans from the federal government. Thus, while the
federal government was increasing the tax on the price of gasoline,
it was squandering public funds at a terrible rate. The increase in
the gasoline tax is being used, among other things, to offset the
accumulated losses in the Hibernia project.
I very much doubt that federal intervention with respect to the
price of gasoline can solve any problems and provide even the
remotest additional guarantee of fairness. I also very much doubt
whether the creation of this commission can give taxpayers in
Quebec and Canada a degree of stability in gasoline prices. I do,
however, recognize the good will of my colleague. But they say the
past is an indication of the future, and I would far prefer that the
federal government stay right out of areas that, in any event, do not
concern it.
When the Hibernia project was first launched, the federal
government's top advisers predicted that the price of a barrel of oil
would reach $70. We, as taxpayers, have paid billions of dollars for
their mistaken forecasts.
We Quebecers fervently hope that this government will not get
involved or, if it does, that it will do so only with the consent of the
provinces so that they can have a say in the appointment of
commissioners as well as in the operation and mandate of the
commission. All the money invested in Hibernia, the billions of
dollars wasted, could have been spent on reducing the gasoline tax,
thus giving taxpayers a much needed break.
While presenting his plan to harmonize-or rather to hide-the
GST last Tuesday, the Minister of Finance said that the federal
government had an obligation to help the poorest regions and
provinces, that there should be a more equitable distribution of
wealth. He should now put his money where his mouth is.
Instead of wasting vast sums of money on foolish projects like
Hibernia, it would be better to reduce the gasoline tax. If they
simply want to offer a fair compensation to the regions or the
Atlantic provinces, it would be better to reduce the gasolinetax rate.
If this government wants a more equitable Canada, it should put
its money where its mouth is by finding more legitimate uses for
this money. It should see to it that these oil companies, which too
often benefit from unjustified tax exemptions, pay their fair share
of taxes.
Finally, this government should let the provinces take
responsibility for their own areas of jurisdiction and let the market
set the prices. In short, the federal government should mind its own
business.
(1140)
[English]
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Vegreville, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to speak on private member's Bill C-220, an act respecting
the energy price commission.
This bill would establish an energy price commission to regulate
the wholesale and retail prices of gasoline. The purpose of price
regulation is to avoid unreasonable increases which affect the cost
of living and depress business. This is the reason for the bill and the
justification for setting up an energy price commission as given by
the hon. member for Regina-Lumsden.
I too am extremely concerned about the price of gasoline. Every
time I pull up to the pumps or get a load of bulk fuel delivered to
my farm I am concerned about the price of gasoline. I often wonder
why it is as high as it is.
This legislation does not provide a answer to the problem. This is
a typical NDP solution to the problem, a socialist solution to the
problem. It is not a practical solution. It has been tried before for
other commodities and in other countries. This type of action has
completely failed. In fact, as the hon. member who spoke from the
Liberal Party said, regulation often leads to higher prices. Clearly
this is not the solution.
Setting up an energy price commission would provide another
opportunity for patronage appointments. Such a body would
employ high priced, taxpayer funded civil servants. There is no
other way to make a commission like that work.
Canadians do not need a higher cost of government. We need
smaller government. We need less money spent by government. We
do not need any more bodies to provide opportunities for the
government of the day to make patronage appointments. It is
clearly the wrong way to go.
I would like to mention a few figures presented by Michael
Ervine, president of QIS Solution Inc., in his presentation to the
House of Commons natural resources committee when speaking on
the topic of the price of gasoline. Mr. Ervine pointed out that the
average price of regular gasoline in Canada today is 55 cents a litre.
2039
Of this price about 15 cents a litre represents the cost of the crude
oil. About 30 cents a litre is the tax on this fuel at the pump. Only
10 cents a litre is what is left for the oil companies to refine the
fuel, to transport, to lease equipment and to sell the product.
Therefore, 10 cents a litre out of 55 cents a litre is to provide all of
these costs.
When looking at a breakdown of costs of gasoline the tax
component is by far the highest single component. What is a
practical way of dealing with the problem? There is one most
effective way for the government or the New Democratic Party to
deal with this issue of what they perceive to be high gasoline
prices. Again I say I feel they are high too. I feel it every time I buy
a litre of gasoline for my farm or for my car. The most effective
thing to do is to lower the tax component.
(1145)
Saskatchewan has a reputation for having high taxes on gasoline
in that province. Again, the way to deal with the problem is to
reduce the tax component which is over half of the total cost of
gasoline.
How is the tax component reduced? There is only one way to do
that. Reduce government spending so that it does not have to tax at
these totally unreasonable levels.
The hon. member for Regina-Lumsden is correct in one
respect. The price of gasoline is too high. It is higher than it should
be because the tax component is too high. That is the area on which
the hon. member should be working.
The hon. member referred to a survey which appeared in the
Regina Leader Post. In that survey about 93 per cent of the people
who responded said they favoured this type of a commission. When
going to the people on an issue it is important to do the background
work before the survey or the poll. The background work is to
make sure that all the information gets out before the survey or poll
is taken.
I wonder if on this issue the Regina Leader Post or the hon.
member for Regina-Lumsden did their work and got the
information that I just presented on the cost of gasoline, which
stated that over half the cost is taxes. Did they do their job to get the
message out to the people that the tax component is the problem
here?
I do not know for a fact that gasoline is not higher than it should
be even acknowledging the high portion of tax. I am not saying it is
not too high. But the way to deal with the problem is not by setting
up an energy price commission, but to make sure of fair, good,
strong, competition legislation which is enforced.
I acknowledge that some progress has been made over the last 10
years. The body that deals with the Competitions Act has made
some progress. I believe it is much better than the old legislation
that was in place. This Competitions Act, and the people who
administer it, have gone a long way in trying to make it easy for
people to let the bureau know if they feel there is unfair
competition. I am sure it has heard from a large number of people
who feel that the price of gasoline is too high.
The competition bureau's services are readily available to people
through a 1-800 toll free number. This allows people who feel there
is not fair competition to complain that companies are not dealing
with prices fairly.
Progress has been made. I cannot determine if there really is a
problem of fuel prices being too high other than the tax component
which is clearly much too high. Over half of the cost of gasoline is
tax at the pump, plus royalties and other taxes built into the rest of
the price.
The way to deal with this is to make sure that we do have good,
fair competition legislation, that the Competitions Act is
strengthened if it needs to be strengthened, and that it be used and
enforced.
I cannot support the legislation. It is up to other members of the
Reform Party to determine how they will vote on this issue. Some
Reform MPs may support the issue, but I doubt it very much when
we look at the facts behind this.
I will not support the bill. Other Reform MPs can make their
own decision. I believe this is a socialist, bureaucratic solution
which will not work. The matter must be dealt with it through the
competitions bureau.
(1150 )
Mr. John Maloney (Erie, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I am pleased
to address the House on private member's Bill C-220, an act
respecting the energy price commission, which was introduced by
my colleague, the hon. member for Regina-Lumsden. I would
like to thank my colleague for the research and effort that was put
into Bill C-220, leading to its introduction on March 4 of this year.
He is a sincere, hard-working member.
The bill, as drafted, would establish an energy price commission
which would confer on the Government of Canada the right and
mandate to regulate the price of gasoline throughout the country.
As I understand it, the commission would approve wholesale and
retail gasoline prices across the country. Indeed, no person could
offer gasoline for sale at a price not approved by the commission.
At the outset, I would like to explain that competition in an
unfettered market rather than regulation leads to the lowest
possible prices, both for the consumers and industrial purchasers of
gasoline. Competition is seen as a means rather than an end unto
itself. It is only through the process of competition that resources
are allocated impartially, with the consequence that the efficiencies
derived therefrom lead to lower prices.
This is the current view of the government and the majority of
our trading partners. At a time when Canadians are attempting to
2040
improve their competitive position in international markets we
must steer away from regulations which, by their very nature, lead
to the kind of production and distribution inefficiencies that
eventually cause an increase in the price of inputs and in
distribution costs.
On the issue of regulation, it is worth noting that at the Toronto
economic summit in June of 1988 the G-7 countries first explicitly
enunciated the goal of intensifying both individual and collective
efforts to remove unnecessary controls and barriers to the operation
of competitive market forces and to rely on increased competition
to achieve economic efficiency and adaptability.
Reform of the regulated sectors of our respective economies has
been in the forefront of economic agendas over the past 10 years. It
is widely understood that less rather than more regulation is
desirable. Barriers are descending within industries, between
markets and across national borders. Trade, directed both north and
south and east and west, has thus been encouraged. The potential
for increased wealth for Canadians has been augmented.
The purpose of Bill C-220 and the commission is said to avoid
unreasonable gasoline price increases. In addition, it proposes to
maintain consistent prices for gasoline from province to province,
all the while allowing for production and distribution costs. My
colleague in his bill would exempt purchasers who enter into
supply contracts for the supply of gasoline to their vehicles or to a
storage facility owned by these purchasers from the authority of the
commission.
From my reading of the bill, the underlying suggestion is that we
need to regulate the price of gasoline in Canada. There has been a
great deal of attention in this House and in the media about the
price of gas in some specific local markets in parts of Canada.
Before we decide that federal regulation is the answer to these
localized problems, should we not ask if the price of gas has risen
significantly and whether or not increasing the regulatory burden
on this industry would actually improve the current situation?
In fact, the price of gasoline, in real terms, excluding all taxes,
has been on a downward trend since 1990. In addition, there exists
no significant differences in the base price of gas, excluding taxes
and exchange rates, between the United States and Canada. Given
this situation, should we as legislators impose a structure on the
industry which would deny to consumers and businesses alike the
benefits derived from real competition and retail gasoline markets?
In addition, the introduction of such a bill appears somewhat
premature. I am informed by officials of Industry Canada, Natural
Resources Canada and the Canadian Petroleum Products Institute
that they are nearing completion of a regional competitive analysis
of petroleum products. This report will examine pricing issuesin various urban and regional markets in the context ofdetermining the key factors which derive competitiveness in
specific Canadian markets.
I would now like to provide my colleagues with a number of
examples of the benefits of competition. Consumers could no
longer benefit from the price wars that presently occur in retail
gasoline markets, nor could they enjoy the benefits of the entry of a
new competitor who would lower their prices to gain a market
share.
Prices set by markets rather than governments tend to be lower
to the consumer. The decision in July of 1991 by the province of
Nova Scotia to discontinue its gasoline pricing regime reflected in
part a recognition that such decisions should be left to competitive
market forces. When prices were no longer regulated and a new
independent entered the market, gas prices fell in Nova Scotia from
58.9 cents to 52.9 cents a litre, a very significant decline.
(1155)
As is well known, gasoline stations communicate what they
charge by posting large signs on their properties. This informs
motorists and competing gas stations. Because gasoline is
essentially a homogeneous product, motorists see one brand as
being more or less identical to another. Gas station operators fear
that if they charge a higher price than a competing station they will
lose business. For similar reasons, if they charge a lower price they
know it will be matched. In the end they make less money selling
the same volume of product.
Retailers that monitor their competitors and independently take
action that best serves their interests are simply following rational
economic logic.
On the larger stage, such a commission would remove the
incentive for petroleum producers to be more efficient. Price
controls weaken the stimulus for firms to either swiftly adapt
themselves to changes in demand or to developing more efficient
methods of distribution. It is easier for the firms that have
experienced cost increases to ask the regulatory body to increase
the controlled price than to attempt to lessen their operating costs.
When prices are controlled at the retail level, retailers in turn
may avoid passing on any discounts that they have been successful
in exacting from manufacturers to the ultimate consumers for fear
of breaking the law. In this manner retailers are constrained in their
attempt to aggressively compete.
Competitive markets incur no cost of administration to
governments, nor do they impose on the firms involved the cost of
compliance with more laws, both of which would be borne by
consumers over time.
Turning now to another subject in relation to this bill, I have
further concerns with respect to the wisdom of raising yet another
issue which impacts on the Canadian Constitution at this stage in
our country's history. The regulation of petroleum products falls
within the jurisdiction of the provinces. The federal government
2041
does not currently intervene on these matters. This could very well
be a fatal flaw in this initiative of my colleague.
I would now like to discuss the Competition Act which is
Canada's legislation governing trade and commerce affecting
competition. The act is a framework law of general application. It
applies, with some exceptions, to all sectors of the Canadian
economy, namely manufacturing, resources and services. The law
touches on the every day life of all Canadians by maintaining and
encouraging competition in the marketplace with the objective of
providing consumers with competitive prices and a variety of
choices in the goods and services which they purchase.
As the hon. member is aware, in 1994 the Minister of Industry, in
response to concerns raised about gasoline pricing, asked the
director of investigation and research who heads the Competition
Bureau to review the provisions of the Competition Act to
determine their adequacy in dealing with anti-competitive
behaviour in the petroleum industry.
In response, the director reported that he actively enforces the
Competition Act by monitoring developments in the marketplace
and reviewing complaints from consumers and those in the
petroleum industry to determine whether there is evidence of
anti-competitive activity.
While there will always be fluctuations in markets owing to
competition and other factors, the director's view is that the
provisions of the legislation are adequate to deal with
anti-competitive behaviour in relation to gasoline prices.
The director regularly reviews the act and the minister will
propose amendments whenever he deems it appropriate. The above
mentioned report is public and I encourage concerned members to
read it. I also encourage anyone who has information that
anti-competitive activity is ongoing to bring it to the attention of
the director.
The act is available to deal with any competition problems that
develop in petroleum product markets. As a matter of fact, on
January 26, Mr. Justice David Dempsey imposed a find of $50,000
against Mr. Gas Limited which was found guilty of having
influenced upward, by threat, the prices charged by one of its
competitors, Caltex Petroleum Incorporated in September 1992 in
the Ottawa area.
It should be noted that contrary to the context suggested in Bill
C-220, matters involving anti-competitive pricing are most often
treated as criminal offences under the Competition Act and as such
proceed through the criminal courts under the auspices of the
Attorney General of Canada.
The competition tribunal has to date only adjudicated on matters
of a civil nature. A select set of pricing matters which may be
brought before the tribunal are usually the result of disciplinary or
punitive action taken by dominant firms in a market rather than
those arising from a criminal agreement among competitors.
In conclusion, it remains my view that gasoline prices should be
set in the competitive marketplace. Anti-competitive behaviour
will be appropriately addressed under the Competition Act.
(1200)
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais): The hour
provided for the consideration of private members' business has
now expired and this item is dropped from the Order Paper.
_____________________________________________
2041
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[
English]
Mr. Randy White (Fraser Valley West, Ref.) moved:
That the House urge the government to direct the Standing Committee on
Justice and Legal Affairs to proceed with the drafting of a Victims' Bill of
Rights, and that, in such areas where the Committee determines a right to be
more properly a provincial concern, the Minister of Justice initiate
consultations with the provinces aimed at arriving at a national standard for a
Victims' Bill of Rights.
He said: Madam Speaker, it is a privilege to bring to the House
of Commons an issue of paramount importance.
Many people have helped us work on this bill since the summer
of 1994. We have turned it into a motion to try to get some action in
the House of Commons. The motion to establish a national bill of
rights will be voted on this evening at 6.30. I encourage everybody
watching and listening to see where the House of Commons stands
on a national bill of rights for victims. This is when we will
separate fact from fiction, right from wrong.
As I stand in the House I find it quite embarrassing today to find
that the government is to table legislation on gay rights when
victims across the country and the Reform Party are fighting to get
victims' rights. It is a total embarrassment that the priorities are on
one aspect and not on the other in this society.
I dedicate this speech to the hundreds of thousands if not the
millions of victims in Canada today. In particular I dedicate my
speech to Sheena who was taken from us by a drunk driver. We
shall never forget the good times and her family will always
remember.
2042
Many people think victims' rights in Canada today are things
like changes to the Young Offenders Act, the repeal of section 745,
the Corrections and Conditional Release Act, the gun law or the
many other bills in the great jungle of criminal justice laws in
Canada. That is not the case. Those are the laws we use to help
judge right from wrong. Those are the laws which are supposed
to protect people from becoming victims in the first place. Those
are the laws which victims seek to change.
On the other hand, victims' rights reflect the protection victims
require after a criminal act has been perpetrated. They are the rights
victims must have to ensure justice and equity exist and to protect
them from being revictimized by the system.
Keith Kempt, a gentleman I met in Mission, British Columbia,
said it best to me. He lost his young fellow when another individual
shot him and killed him. Keith said to me not too long ago that
criminals need correction; victims need rehabilitation. How
appropriate a comment by a victim.
I hope the debate today will be constructive. We know a large
number of victims have been advised of this debate and are
watching as I speak now. I ask the people watching and listening to
listen closely, to see if they will come to the same conclusion we
have that a national victims' bill of rights is necessary. If you listen
to the content and the sincerity of the speeches, you will see why
we need this bill of rights. I encourage people across the country to
write to us. Write to your MP, write to me in the House of
Commons with your comments. Victims need our help. They need
a national bill of rights.
Some provincial jurisdictions are involved. There are some
actions within this bill of rights that would require administration
by the provincial system. Just as the provinces co-operated with the
federal government to implement reforms to the plea bargaining
process, the same co-operation would be required here. Let us not
blame one another for currently not having a victim's bill of rights;
let us build one now.
(1205)
I quote Somerset Maugham: ``It is a funny thing about life, if
you refuse anything but the best you very often get it''. Let us
develop the best together for victims, with victims.
The provinces of Ontario and British Columbia have recently
attempted to address this issue through legislation. I looked at the
legislation and I can see these rights are conditional to some extent;
conditional to the Privacy Act, to the Freedom of Information Act
and to the rights of the criminal. I do not think today we should be
in the position to say the rights of the criminal are more important
that the rights of the victim. I think we have to say there are
unconditional rights of victims. Victims need more reassurance
than having things conditional today. Victims need more
consistency than that.
There are many victims' rights groups in the country that agree
with our position and the criteria from which we set out what
victims' rights are. Let us not leave them alone anymore. Let us
support these groups, their membership, those victims.
There are groups like CAVEAT, CRY, Victims of Violence,
Citizens United for Safety and Justice, Victims Resource Centre,
Fair Justice, Move the Rock, and Peace and Justice for Canadians,
to name some of the ones that have supported this initiative.
The standards we have established for a Canadian victims' bill
of rights are here, and I wish to read them and table with them in
the House. Afterwards I want to present an explanation for each
article so that Liberal members can understand what is behind this
incentive.
It is important to give an idea of some of the hurdles we have to
cross in this country. To quote from the legal industry, Russ
Chamberlain, a criminal defence lawyer, said in the Vancouver
Province, that crime victims want an eye for an eye. He said they
want someone else to fix their petty problems and that their pitch
for personal vengeance can improperly affect a jury's verdict.
Victim impact statements are just venting the spleen and do not serve justice
and should be allowed, banned completely.
The consequences of criminal conduct are obvious to any intelligent person.
It does not assist-to have persons who are the victims of criminal conduct
spend all their time weeping in front of the jury.
I ask any reasonable and logical individual in this country to
think about what this criminal lawyer has said. I sincerely believe
the justice industry, the legal industry, sees victims as excess
baggage in the process, and that is unfortunate and that is what we
are to change here.
Let me read into the record exactly the criteria we want and then
I will explain why. A definition for a victim, if you can believe it, is
not existent in this country nationally, nor is it in many provinces.
A victim is anyone who suffers as a result of an offence, physical or
mental injury, or economic loss, or any spouse, sibling, child or
parent of the individual against whom the offence was perpetrated,
or anyone who had an equivalent relationship, not necessarily a
blood relative. That is what a victim is.
Let us see what victims require. Victims have the right to be
informed of their rights at every stage of the process, including
those rights involving compensation from the offender. They must
also be made aware of any victims' services available; not too
much to ask.
Second, victims have the right to be informed of the offender's
status throughout the process, including, but not restricted to,
notification of any arrests, upcoming court dates, sentencing dates,
plans to release the offender from custody, including notification of
2043
what community the parolee is being released into, conditions of
release, parole dates, et cetera. All information is to be made
available on request.
Third, victims have the right to choose between giving oral
and/or written victim impact statements before sentencing at any
parole hearings and at judicial reviews.
(1210)
Fourth, victims have the right to be informed in a timely fashion
of the details of the crown's intention to offer a plea bargain before
it is presented to the defence; not too much to ask.
Fifth, victims have the right to know why charges were not laid,
if that is the decision of the crown or police.
Sixth, victims have the right to protection from anyone who
intimidates, harasses or interferes with the rights of the victim.
Seventh, victims have the right to have police follow through on
domestic violence charges. Once a victim files a complaint, police
should have the authority to follow it through to the end.
Eighth, victims have the right to know if a person convicted of a
sexual offence has a sexually transmittable disease.
I do not consider any of those difficult issues. Having worked
with many victims since I was elected, I have come to realize that
what they are asking for is fairness, something reasonable,
something that gives them the feeling that they, too, are equal
citizens to the criminal.
Let me go back and indicate why some of these are in here. Why
do we define a victim? Shortly after the death of Sian Simmonds, a
young girl in my riding, I was sitting with her dad, Chris, in his
living room. Sue, the mother, had a very difficult time after Sian
was murdered. They were both enraged and saddened that they
could not get any counselling assistance for Sue. Why? The
officialdom out there said Sue was not the victim.
If the mother of a girl who has been murdered is not a victim,
who is? It is not the dead person, it is the remaining parents. We
have to define what a victim is today.
Victims have the right to be informed at every stage of the
process. Two weeks ago on a Friday I went to a sentencing hearing
in my riding. Tami McKenzie, the mother of the victim, was going
to it. I asked her whether she would make an attempt at having her
victim impact statement read into the record rather than have it go
in through the back door where the judge reads it and puts it on file.
She did not even know what a victim impact statement was. I had
to tell her. I should not be telling her. There are many people in this
country who have no idea what victim impact statements are, or
any other part of the process. We need a process and a commitment
to advise victims of their rights.
When I was watching ``To Serve and Protect'' one evening on
television, I saw the RCMP reading rights to a criminal who bashed
a lady who was laying on the street crying with blood on her hands.
They were ignoring the other individual, who probably never did
find out what her rights were. Where does she go? Who lays the
charges? Will she go to court? If she goes to court, will she get
assistance? Not done in this country, but it has to be.
Victims should have the right to be informed of the offender's
status. In my riding an lady who was separated from her husband
found that he came home one night, threw gasoline throughout the
house and torched it. They escaped. He got a year or so in jail and
she specifically asked: ``Let me know if he is getting out, when he
is getting out, the terms and conditions of getting out, where he will
live when he does get out''. What happened? No one told her. She
got a call and there he was out and the nightmare started again.
This is not isolated. This is time and time again across the
country. I am happy to see the justice minister intently listening.
There are many victims today listening to what we have to stay in
the House of Commons. I sincerely hope we get some answers.
The right to choose between giving oral and written victim
impact statements should be a common right. However, as I read
earlier, prosecutors and defence lawyers have a very difficult time
with victim impact statements. This is mainly because the crime is
against the crown and not the victim. When it is, a victim is seen as
an extra, a difficult situation for the lawyers in the trial which is
wrong.
(1215)
Victims need to be informed in a timely fashion of the details of
the crown's intention to offer plea bargaining. I wish I had more
time to tell the House about Allen and Debbie Wayne in my riding.
A young offender who was currently under prohibition from
driving stole a 4 X 4. He smashed into young Allen Junior's car,
broke Allen Junior's two legs, his arm, his pelvis, crushed his head
and he still does not have much of a chance of living. In fact his
mom, Debbie, told me several weeks ago they had to make the
decision to cut his leg off. They explicitly asked that charges not be
plea bargained and if they were, they asked that they be told if they
were being bargained down.
The offender had eight charges against him. They found out from
me and no one else that the eight charges were reduced to three
minor charges. As a consequence this guy gets off but he is not a
nice fellow. He was already under a prohibition from driving. What
was he given? Fifteen months, I believe, open custody, he can go
home; one day concurrent open custody for driving while
prohibited; and something like three years prohibition from driving
which
2044
he was already under in the first place. I cannot tell the House how
sick and crushed that makes victims feel. Allen and Debbie Wayne
today are angry and I do not blame them.
Victims should have a right to know why charges are not laid, if
that is the decision of the crown or the police. Is that not such a
common sense solution to some of this? My secretary in my riding
office had her house broken into by the same group three times last
year. Charges were not laid. When I pursued it, and pursued it and
pursued it again, I found out that charges were not going to be laid.
Why? Because they were looking at some drug charges against
these guys. She never did get charges laid against those people.
Victims should have a right to protection from anyone who
intimidates, harasses or interferes with their rights. Why not? The
justice minister may say we have that in the charter of rights and
freedoms and so on, but it is not the case. We have to put some
emphasis on it.
Joan in my riding was sexually assaulted with a weapon. We got
the guy. We found out who it was and he was charged and has gone
in. He was writing her letters. Joan is 63 years old. This fellow was
writing letters from Vancouver remand, telephoning her and so on.
We have got to do more in that area.
Police must follow through on domestic violence charges. We
only have to look at what happened in the Vernon situation. One of
the victims went to the police and said: ``He is stalking me. He is
going to come after me, but do not do anything because if you do, I
am going to be murdered''. So the police did not do anything. All
they had to do was to follow it up from there and they would have
found out that the fellow had purchased and registered guns.
Finally, we should know whether a person convicted of a sexual
offence has a sexually transmittable disease. I could talk a lot about
Jose Mendoza, and I have in the past. Tasha who was raped, not
sexually assaulted, could not find out whether this guy had a
sexually transmittable disease. Why? Because he did not want
anybody to know. He did not want Tasha or anybody else to know.
They are to keep their hands off of him.
Well done is better than well said. We have to do the job we have
been sent here to do. This is not a partisan issue. I sincerely hope
the Liberals particularly the justice minister think about this. Give
the motion an opportunity to get to the justice committee for
consideration to work out with the attorneys general in this country
how we can improve on a system which needs improving.
People like Darleen Boyd, Chris and Sue Simmonds, Corinne
and Ron Shaeffer, Chuck and Dona Cadman, Dawn and Bill
Bakeburg, who are all people I have worked with, Debbie and Dan
Mahaffy-Debbie is here today-Gail and Terry Smith, Paul and
Marilyn Cameron and millions of other Canadians are hoping a
national victims bill of rights can happen. It can start today. It can
start at 6.30 this evening. Let us get away from looking at the gay
rights issue today. Let us look at victims rights. Let us make a real
attempt to do something positive in the country.
(1220)
I will finish with a quote from Robert F. Kennedy who said it
best: Some men see things as they are and say, why; I dream of
things that never were and say, why not. To me that says just about
everything on the issue. It is not impossible. There is no need for
excuses. There is no need to say that the Reformers voted against
Bill C-68 or any other bill. That is criminal justice legislation.
There is a need for a commitment today.
Mr. Gordon Kirkby (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
the government, the minister and all members of the House are
very interested in doing what we can to assist the lot of victims of
crime. We are introducing various forms of legislation.
I wonder when so many victims rights groups across the country
support the gun control legislation why did the Reform Party vote
against it?
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West): Madam Speaker, I knew this
was going to be the approach today.
Talk about thick. I just said that in this country we have criminal
justice legislation which determines right from wrong. Victims
rights legislation concerns rights people need subsequent to a crime
being committed against them.
Bill C-68 in our opinion had serious problems. We were looking
for how to fight crime. That bill had flaws in it. It is not the issue
here. That is what I am trying to get at. It is going to take all day in
debate to get that point across because I do not think the Liberal
MPs understand what we are talking about. We are going to try to
keep the debate on that rather articulate level if that is possible.
We voted against the Young Offenders Act. Why? Because it did
not go far enough and this government knows it. And the young
offenders are still a major problem in this country with regard to
crime. That does not mean we disagree with victims rights. It does
not mean that at all. In fact, we cannot develop a Young Offenders
Act or a gun law and say that we have done it all for the victims.
Unless the member has not heard what I just finished reading, it has
nothing to do with it.
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Madam Speaker, may I begin this afternoon by
congratulating the hon. member for Fraser Valley West and his
colleagues for using their opportunity today, an opposition day, to
put this resolution before the House of Commons. It provides us
2045
with the occasion to discuss and consider the circumstances of
people who are too often overlooked in the criminal justice system.
Victims have until relatively recent times been the orphans of the
justice system. Although steps have been made toward progress in
recent years, they have been imperfect. There remains a great deal
to do.
In the two and one-half years it has been my privilege to serve
the government and the public in my present capacity, I have made
it my business whenever the opportunity arises to meet with those
whose lives have been touched by crime. For the most part these
have been surviving family members of Canadians who have been
murdered.
(1225 )
I have found those meetings to be very difficult because of the
emotions involved. Questions are often asked for which there are
no simple responses. There is in the final analysis nothing that one
can do, whether minister of the crown, member of Parliament,
police officer, judge, friend or even loved one which will
satisfactorily take the place of the person who has been lost to
crime.
I have had those meetings because I believe it is an important
part of my job. It is important for persons who have lived through
such tragedy to have the opportunity to speak directly with
someone who must take responsibility for Canada's criminal
justice system and to express their experiences and their
perspective. I have had those meetings because I have learned from
them. My own insight, my own understanding and my own
perspective of criminal justice matters has been broadened and
enriched from what I have learned in those encounters with
Canadians who have had a direct, personal and very tragic
experience with the criminal justice system.
Let me make it clear at the outset that I do not think there is
anyone who would contend today that the criminal justice system
should be organized just for victims alone. Their perspective is
important and essential. There is a great deal we can do to improve
the system as it relates to them.
However, the victim is not the only participant or the only
stakeholder in the criminal justice system. There is the public,
which has a right to see a system that is fair and balanced and
operated for their benefit. There are the police who must walk the
streets and take risks with their own personal safety to enforce the
law and to assist in its prosecution. There is the offender. It is one
of the principles of sentencing in the criminal law that we should
strive toward rehabilitation when it is possible. Indeed the safest
and the surest form of public protection is to rehabilitate the
offender so that the person can return to society and not offend
again.
The victim's perspective is not the unique or only perspective
when it comes to designing the criminal justice system, but it is a
very important one. As I have said, too often through insensitivity
the interests and the personal stake of the victim are overlooked.
I am not comfortable to simply rhyme off shopping lists of
legislative achievements as though they were a simple answer to a
complex question. I do not pretend that we have done as much as
we could have, or that we have done enough to improve the
criminal justice system in the last two and one-half years.
However, I do think that a discussion of this issue today would be
incomplete unless I drew attention to the efforts we have made as a
government to improve the system as it relates to victims.
[Translation]
For example, we amended the Young Offenders Act with Bill
C-37, making the victim impact statement part of the process for
the first time.
With Bill C-41, we amended section 745 to ensure that victims
take part in the process of determining eligibility for parole, and we
amended the Criminal Code concerning the victim's role in the
process.
With Bill C-41 we also added sections concerning restitution,
giving victims the opportunity to recover property or money in
restitution from the offender.
[English]
With Bill C-42 we made it easier for those who are the victims of
domestic abuse to seek peace bonds or restraining orders to keep
the offender away and to make it more likely that it is the abuser
and not the victim who is taken from the matrimonial home.
(1230)
[Translation]
In Bill C-68, which stepped up the control of firearms, we
amended the act by adding a mandatory minimum four year prison
sentence for anyone using a firearm to commit any of ten crimes
listed in the Criminal Code.
In C-72, we acted in response to the use in criminal cases of the
defence of self-induced intoxication. We clearly stated that
involuntary intoxication would not be allowed as a response for
anyone accused of a violent crime against another person, and we
changed the act after a Supreme Court of Canada decision on this
matter.
With Bill C-104, we added sections allowing police forces to
take forensic DNA samples with court permission.
[English]
The DNA sample provisions in the Criminal Code for the first
time provide expressly that police can seek permission to take
bodily samples even without the consent of the offender to be
2046
tested for DNA purposes, a measure which I may say was
supported by my friends across the way.
We have now before Parliament pending legislation which,
among other things, would toughen the penalties for stalking,
particularly where lives are taken. It deals with the victimization of
children through juvenile prostitution by providing for stern
minimum penitentiary terms for pimps and measures which would
also make it easier for children to testify against their pimps when
charges are brought.
In addition, we will in the weeks to come bring forward, in
collaboration with the solicitor general, measures which will
further amend the criminal law to provide more effectively for
those offenders who are sentenced to finite periods of
imprisonment but who can be predicted to be at high risk to
re-offend violently on their release. We will label for the House
concrete proposals to change the Criminal Code so that such
persons can be supervised for periods as long as 10 years after their
release from prison.
I know that the hon. member for Fraser Valley West recognizes
that the way the criminal justice system operates in general and
more particularly the way it treats the interests of victims is a
shared federal and provincial responsibility. I do not say that to
avoid the responsibility that we have federally, I accept that. But
the administration of the criminal law, the organization of the
courts, the manner in which prosecutions are carried on and the
standards that the crown attorneys follow are prescribed by the
provincial and not the federal government. Therefore, it is very
much a shared responsibility that we must discharge together.
The question then becomes: What is it that we can do as the
federal participant in this system to encourage, facilitate and
achieve the objectives that we share? I can report to the House this
is not the first time that the issue of the treatment of victims in the
system by both levels of government has been in issue.
As the House may know, every year there is a meeting among the
federal attorney general and the provincial and territorial attorneys
general to discuss matters of common interest. This year's meeting
is to occur here in Ottawa in about two weeks. At my request, the
issue of victims, their place and their treatment by the criminal
justice system has been put on the agenda for that meeting.
It is my intention to put before my provincial and territorial
colleagues a proposal that we reaffirm basic principles about how
victims are treated in the system.
In 1988, at just such a meeting, the federal and provincial
attorneys general endorsed a statement of basic principles to
govern the treatment of victims. I would like to read from that, if I
may. In many ways it reflects the same principles that are contained
in the statement that was read by the hon. member for Fraser
Valley West.
(1235)
In 1988 the ministers adopted this statement:
In recognition of the United Nations' Declaration of Basic Principles of
Justice for Victims of Crime, Federal and Provincial Ministers Responsible for
Criminal Justice agree that the following principles should guide Canadian
society in promoting access to justice, fair treatment and provision of assistance
for victims of crime.
1. Victims should be treated with courtesy, compassion and with respect for
their dignity and privacy and should suffer the minimum of necessary
inconvenience from their involvement with the criminal justice system.
2. Victims should receive, through formal and informal procedures, prompt
and fair redress for the harm that they had suffered.
[
Translation]
3. All victims should be informed of what reparations are available to them, and
what steps they have to take to obtain them.
4. Victims should be informed of what role they will play in the trial, the trial
date, developments in the case, and the final court decision.
5. Victims' opinions and concerns should be sought out, and the necessary
assistance provided to them throughout the entire trial.
6. When the victim's personal interests are involved, his or her opinions and
concerns should be brought to the attention of the court, provided this is allowed
by the rules of criminal procedure.
7. The necessary steps should be taken, as required, to ensure the safety of
victims and their families, and to protect them against threats or reprisals.
[
English]
8. Enhanced training should be made available to sensitize criminal justice
personnel to the needs and concerns of victims and guidelines should be
developed, where appropriate, for this purpose.
9. Victims should be informed of the availability of health and social services
and other relevant assistance so that they might continue to receive the
necessary medical, psychological and social assistance through existing
programs and services.
10. Victims should report the crime and co-operate with law enforcement
authorities.
That is the statement of basic principles that the ministers
adopted eight years ago. I intend to put it before them again next
month and to invite them to reaffirm those principles because to my
eye and in my experience while those high sounding principles are
easy to adopt, it is quite another thing to put them into practice
every day in the courts.
2047
Too often a victim is not consulted about the adjournment of
a case. Too often the perspective of the victim is not sufficiently
respected in dealing with matters of sentence, and too often after
the case has left the court and the offender is taken away to serve
the sentence, the victim is forgotten. There is no follow-up, no
provision of services, no effort to bring to the attention of the
victim recourses and remedies that are available.
I will use the occasion of the meeting next month to remind my
colleagues of those commitments made eight years ago, to canvas
with them concrete steps that can be taken to bring those principles
to life and methods by which we can improve on and elaborate on
those principles.
I undertake to the hon. member for Fraser Valley West that in
preparation for my meeting with my colleagues, I will examine the
statement of principles he read from this morning and determine
how much of that statement I can add to what is in the document I
have read from to improve it and to broaden it in its scope.
The resolution today is a welcome opportunity to discuss an
important subject. It is a good use of the House's time. I share the
concern that has been expressed by the hon. member. I may not
agree with every element of the means he has described by which
the objectives can be achieved, but the objectives we do share.
I also join with him in acknowledging that we have a distance to
go before the criminal justice system serves the interests of victims
as it should, while recognizing and emphasizing that is not the only
perspective we must keep in mind.
(1240 )
I wish to tell the hon. member for Fraser Valley West that we will
be happy to support his resolution and have the justice committee
look at this issue. I will bring to the committee whatever might
arise from my meetings with the provincial and territorial ministers
so that together, in a fashion that is not partisan but is co-operative,
we can act to improve the circumstances and improve the criminal
justice system.
Mr. Randy White (Fraser Valley West, Ref.): Madam Speaker,
what I heard was encouraging. I believe what I heard is that tonight
we will see a positive vote from the Liberal government to move
victims' rights into committee with the intent of developing a
national bill of rights. That is good. That is what we are asking for.
I know that the minister meets with a lot of victims. I guess I
come from the old school says that well done is better than well
said; seeing is believing and that sort of thing.
The minister read a statement of principles from 1988. While
those principles may be a statement they are not practised today in
Canada. That is the point that we are trying to make. That is why
we are going down this road, to ensure that they are practised. I
could give a litany of cases to cover what I have just said.
The minister talks about Bills C-68 and C-69 and section 745.
That is another issue and we will get to it. Today we are talking
about specifics on items like the mere and simple fact of advising
victims of what their rights are. Surely it is not a 1988 statement of
principles in the United Nations or anywhere else in this world
which dictates that. Common sense dictates that. That is not a
difficult process to do today.
Since the Liberals have indicated they are going to vote for this
tonight, we will doggedly follow through on those issues. It is not
good enough anymore to say we will. It must be done.
I would like to ask the minister again to confirm that he will be
voting for this, in fact, that the Liberal government will be voting
for this motion tonight. If that is the case, then we can proceed now
with the debate on how to implement this and the effects of the
eight items plus the definition of a victim. The minister talks a lot
about the legislation, victims and so on but a victim is not even
defined, so who are we talking about? What is a victim? I would
like to get confirmation from the minister that the Liberal
government will be voting for the motion tonight.
Mr. Rock: Madam Speaker, may I make my position clear. I am
going to support this resolution tonight. I think it will be a free vote
on our side of the House.
Mr. Benoit: You think it will be? Good, good.
Mr. Rock: The practice or the habit on this side of the House has
been to invite members to vote as they see fit. I have no difficulty
supporting this resolution in matters of this kind whether it is a
resolution or a private member's bill.
I do not regard reference to other legislation that we have
introduced as beside the point. I do not pretend it is enough but I
also do not think that the discussion is complete unless we refer to
it.
The Young Offenders Act, Bill C-37, allowed for the first time,
and it was quite remarkable, victim impact statements to be
introduced. I am sure the hon. members would agree with that
proposition.
In Bill C-41, section 745 was amended to permit the victims to
participate in the hearing. That arose directly out of a meeting I had
with Marie King Forrest whose husband was a Royal Canadian
Mounted Police officer in Saskatchewan who was murdered. The
offender was bringing a 745 application and she was not able to
take part. As a result of that, I amended Bill C-41 to include a
specific provision that would add to section 745 of the code a
statement that victims' perspectives must be taken into account
when those applications are brought.
2048
(1245)
In the case of Daviault and the Supreme Court of Canada, where
there was self-induced excessive intoxication, there was an
allegation of sexual assault. There was a victim in that case. In the
name of that case and the name of the principle for which we felt
we should stand, we introduced Bill C-72 to say self-induced
intoxication should not and cannot be an answer in that
circumstance. That involved a victim.
In the DNA bill, Bill C-104, I remember Mr. Manning being on
the Hill a year ago and bringing his circumstances as a victim very
forcefully to our attention. He and other victims were the
beneficiary of that legislation.
I do not agree with the hon. member that the legislative steps that
have been taken are separate, because they are very much a part of
serving the cause of justice, including the perspective of victims,
and I say they very much reflect the commitment of the
government to that cause.
Many references the hon. member makes quite correctly to the
ways the system falls short in being fair to victims have to do with
administration and therefore provincial responsibility. Provinces
across the country are having to reduce expenditures because of
fiscal restraints. Crown attorneys are being laid off, court staff is
being diminished and services are being reduced.
One challenge we will face in living up to the statement of
principles adopted eight years ago is to achieve the principles with
diminished resources. I emphasize for my friends opposite and for
the House that it is a very important part of all this. Whether we
have the resources federally and provincially to provide the kind of
services that are required will be a challenge. It will mean giving
priority to these efforts and reallocating money from other
purposes. I believe it is the right thing to do.
Mr. Jim Silye (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I
compliment the Minister of Justice on the flowing rhetoric and
great words he used in terms of describing victims and supporting
my colleague's motion today.
My concern is the historical difference with this Liberal
government since it has been in power between the works it uses
and the impression and perception it gives to the Canadian public
that it is doing something good when the reality is it does not go far
enough and does not tackle the problem head on.
I like his analogy to victims being the orphans of the justice
system. Then he goes on to reaffirm his personal belief of the basic
principles for victims and he read off a list that is eight years old.
He talked about how he is to recommend this list once again at the
provincial meeting.
My concern is that these principles are not legislation. What we
need is legislation. My colleague's motion today is a step toward
bringing about change in the law, legislation that will protect
victims. That is the endorsement we are seeking.
I would like to know if the minister at those meetings will be
getting the provincial justice ministers on board to changing the
laws in the country by introducing federal legislation which will
then be endorsed by provincial legislations to have a victims' bill
of rights.
Mr. Rock: Madam Speaker, the problem with the principles of
1988 is not their age. The problem is the extent to which they may
or may not have been acted on. What we are talking about today are
principles. We are not talking about specific legislation.
There were concrete steps taken after 1988. After those
principles were adopted the Criminal Code was amended to add
provisions for the identification and prompt return of property to
victims from whom it had been improperly taken; prohibitions on
the publications of the identity of certain victims; the use of victim
impact statements; the imposition of a victim fine surcharge and
restitution provisions. There were steps taken after 1988.
Where we find common ground today is that those principles are
fine. They may even be improved on by the form of words used by
the hon. member for Fraser Valley West. We will look at that, but
not enough has been done to respect and to act on those principles.
(1250)
I made reference to some legislation that we have introduced.
There is no doubt more can be done and we have a willingness to do
it. The important thing is to bring those principles to life in the way
we write the law and in the way we administer it. On that we have
common ground.
[Translation]
Mrs. Pierrette Venne (Saint-Hubert, BQ): Madam Speaker,
today the Reform Party is tabling a motion urging the government
to direct the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs to
proceed with the drafting of a victims' charter of rights. Indeed,
Reformers are really asking for a charter of rights.
First, I submit that this an issue that comes mainly under
provincial jurisdiction. I want to make this very clear, and I will
elaborate on that point.
On December 13, 1993, Quebec passed the Crime Victims
Compensation Act, to replace the Act respecting assistance for
victims of crime.
The act provides for the payment of various forms of
compensation to victims of criminal acts, including income
replacement benefits, academic retardation benefits, loss of
physical or psychological integrity allowance, bereavement
allowance, and also an
2049
allowance for supporting a child born following a criminal offence
of a sexual nature. The act also provides for the refund of certain
costs related to personal assistance and rehabilitation, as well as
for the administrative support required for its implementation.
An office and an assistance fund were set up. Thanks to this
assistance fund, help centres were established in various districts to
comfort victims and to support them throughout the judicial
process. The Commission de la santé et de la sécurité du travail was
given a mandate to administer this act. This commission has
regional offices.
The Reform Party is also proposing that consultations be
initiated with the provinces to arrive at a national standard for its
proposed victims' charter of rights. This is unacceptable, since this
is essentially an area of provincial jurisdiction.
First, a national standard can only be arrived at in an area of
exclusive federal jurisdiction, such as defence, bankruptcy and
insolvency, divorce, postal services, unemployment insurance,
aboriginal issues, the Criminal Code, criminal law, banks, weights
and measures.
Beyond these explicitly listed areas in section 91 of the British
North America Act, any action by this House is likely to be
opposed by the provinces, unless it is in an open or vacant field, or
unless the proposed legislation is ancillary to legislation in an area
listed under section 91 of the 1867 BNA Act.
This House may enact any ancillary provision required to
provide effective and complete legislation. However, it can only
legislate on the rights of victims in an indirect fashion, that is
through legislation concerning an area expressly mentioned in
section 91.
(1255)
Is this a question of national interest? Certainly not. However,
the federal government may intervene and does so within these
areas of jurisdiction. Thus, the Criminal Code and the Corrections
and Conditional Release Act contain provisions aimed specifically
at victims of crime.
One of the provisions of the Criminal Code is that trials and
preliminary hearings may be heard in camera, that a court may
make an order restricting publicity in order to protect the identity
of witnesses in proceedings involving sexual offences or in which
violence is alleged to have been used, threatened or attempted.
Other provisions allow videotapes to be used in place of the
testimony of a witness, or certain testimony to be given outside the
courtroom so that a witness will not have to appear before an
accused.
These provisions, furthermore, are the subject of two bills
recently introduced in the House, Bill C-27 and Bill C-217, which I
myself tabled. If passed, these bills will further ease the testimony
of victims of crime.
The Criminal Code also provides that a court may, on the
application of a person aggrieved, at the time sentence is imposed,
order the accused to pay that person an amount by way of
satisfaction or compensation for loss of or damage to property
suffered by that person as a result of the commission of the offence.
The Corrections and Conditional Release Act provides that a
victim may provide information for use by the Parole Board in
determining whether an offender will be granted parole and under
what conditions. In addition, the Board or the Correctional Service
shall, at the request of a victim, disclose to him certain
information, such as the date of commencement and length of the
sentence, and the dates on which an inmate becomes eligible to be
released on unescorted temporary absence or parole.
Other information may be disclosed when, in the opinion of the
chairperson or the commissioner of corrections, the interest of the
victim outweighs any invasion of the offender's privacy that could
result from the disclosure. Such information includes the
following: If the person is being detained, the penitentiary where
he is incarcerated, the date of any anticipated hearing, the type and
date of release, the destination of the inmate, and the conditions of
his release.
Many victims would rather turn the page and try to forget this
tragic episode in their lives. Out of respect for them, the Parole
Board and the Correctional Service do not automatically send
information to the victims, who must make a written request if they
wish to obtain such information.
In short, the current situation does not warrant the measure
proposed by the Reform Party. The provinces are in a better
position to protect the victims of criminal acts, and they can do so
in a manner that better reflects their particular environment. This is
not to say that the federal Minister of Justice should stop
continuing to improve the law in areas that can affect victims of
criminal acts.
Given that this is a matter that comes essentially under
provincial jurisdiction, and that the provinces, including Quebec,
have already legislated this area, we oppose the motion of the
Reform Party.
(1300)
[English]
Mrs. Jan Brown (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I
will be splitting my time with my colleague from
Nanaimo-Cowichan. I would like to express my thanks for the
opportunity to rise today and address the motion to introduce a
victims' bill of rights.
Every act of violence touches each one of us. It crosses party
lines, gender lines, cultural, sociolinguistic and economic lines.
Our concern is the reality that brings us together as we all struggle
with the infuriating, frustrating and heart wrenching results of
violent crime.
While all aspects of this bill of rights are of great significance, as
critic to the department of status of women I am particularly
concerned with issues that address victims of domestic violence.
2050
Since my election to Parliament I have seen any number of
times the consequences of a justice system that neglects the
welfare of victims of crime. These consequences are particularly
stark and devastating for the victims of violent crime and domestic
violence. The following will bring to light how devastating, as I
share with members a few of the numerous cases I have dealt with
in my riding of Calgary Southeast.
These cases specifically involve domestic violence including
pedophilia and stalking. The sensitivity and confidential nature of
some of these cases means I will not make reference to the names
of the constituents concerned except for the case of Helen Leadley.
Helen has courageously brought her story to the public, and
Parliament is already familiar with it.
In early 1994 Helen Leadley approached our office for
assistance. Her concern was that a convicted violent offender by
the name of Robert Paul Thompson was up for parole in 1995 and
she feared for the safety of her family. She explained to me that
Thompson had been convicted for the murder of her daughter, his
common law wife, Brenda Fitzgerald. Mr. Thompson's record
dated back to 1969. The crime of murder, for which he is currently
serving time, he committed while on a day pass from the Bow
Valley correctional institute where he had been incarcerated for two
counts of hit and run. Thompson was caught, found guilty by a jury
trial and put in jail for his crime.
Helen and her grandchildren have never had the opportunity to
go on with normal lives. Helen would spend the next 10 years
fearing for the life of her family. Thompson sent death threats to
Helen and her family promising that once released, and he remains
quite confident that he will be released, he would follow through on
these threats.
While Thompson is being provided for by the state, Leadley
family members live in fear for their lives, never able to put the
tragedy of Brenda's death to rest, as they have spent countless
hours agonizing over and working to prevent Thompson's release.
On June 13, 1995 I attended Thompson's parole hearing in
Renous, New Brunswick. There I was able to present a written
statement to the parole board on Helen's behalf requesting that
Thompson serve his full life sentence. Helen was denied
permission to make any verbal statement to the parole board. As
unimaginable as that ruling is, it remains that victims are not
permitted to speak during the parole hearing.
Fortunately the board ruled against Thompson's release but he
will be allowed to apply again and again in the years to come until
he is successful.
As Helen works valiantly to keep the shattered pieces of her
family life together, she must also find the strength to go on
fighting to secure her own protection because the state seems
incapable of doing that. When will she be free from this burden?
As long as we continue to neglect the victims of crime, people like
Helen will continue to live in fear and sorrow.
More recently, another constituent came to see me, this time for
assistance in protecting her family against a sex offender who had
sexually abused not only her daughter but six other little girls
including his two daughters. The individual in question was
convicted on seven counts of sexual assault three years ago,
sentenced to nine years in prison but became eligible for early
parole this past February, ludicrous as that may be.
The constituent asked that I attend the parole hearing at the
Bowden Institution in Alberta. Once again neither the victims nor
their parents were allowed a voice at the hearings. In this case the
decision was made in favour of society and the victims, as the
offender was denied earlier parole.
However, the positive outcome was outweighed by the
uncertainty felt by the victims as they awaited the process as well
as the emotional anguish of having to relive the violation as they
revisited the horrible memories of the crime. The very intrusive
representation by the pedophile as he used this hearing to absolve
himself was truly offensive.
I will share with members the story of a family haunted by a
former spouse who while in prison issued death threats to his
ex-wife and her husband. The offender in question was scheduled
for release sometime around April 4, 1996. Authorities informed
me that in all likelihood his release would be granted. I was
informed by those same authorities that this man is capable of
following through on his threats. He has been diagnosed with
degenerative personality disorder, a disease that causes him to
become increasingly aggressive and increasingly dangerous.
(1305)
This offender has made threats against me and my staff in the
constituency office. When I contacted the RCMP to find out what
could be done to protect not only my constituents from this
dangerous man but also me and my staff, I was told that until he
reoffends there is not much that can be done short of surveillance.
While our justice system fulfilled its promise to release the
criminal as scheduled, it continues to neglect the very real and
overwhelming threats to the lives of its victims and the rest of our
community.
In light of the above, I take this opportunity to express my
support for the victims' bill of rights. For too long we have worked
to protect the accused at the expense of the victims. While I
understand the need to ensure the accused are treated with fairness
under our laws, must it be done at the expense of those innocent
individuals who have already experienced abuse and humiliation
and who have to suffer the further insecurity of never knowing if
they will ever be safe again?
2051
How much longer will we buy into the argument that what is
needed above every possible consideration is rehabilitation? What
of protection for our citizens? What of making individuals
accountable for their actions? What of the rights of the victims
and of potential victims in society? It is time to stop giving
priority to criminals and violent offenders who prey on our
families and children.
As we see cases of domestic violence increasing we must ask
what are we doing to alter effectively that reality. While I am a
strong advocate of prevention and the incorporation of preventive
measures to curb the tide of the growing number of violent offences
being perpetrated within families, I also believe it is well past the
time that we put in place effective measures to respond to the needs
of the growing numbers of victims in the nation.
As we can see from these real life examples, victims are not
being accorded the protection they need or even a say in the
process.
Domestic violence presents particular problems for the criminal
justice system. Some of the most violent crime in our communities
is committed in the home by close family friends and family
members. Unfortunately children and women bear a
disproportionate amount of this aggression.
In one of the most widely referred to studies on domestic
violence, a 1993 government publication entitled ``Changing the
Landscape: Ending Violence-Achieving Equality'' found that 34
per cent of Canadian women have experienced a physical assault
from a partner in an intimate relationship. Five per cent of the
women reported being threatened, 39 per cent were sexually
assaulted, while 50 per cent of Canadian women say they have been
abused in some way. A shocking 45 per cent of women have faced
violence at the hands of husbands or boyfriends they live with.
Children have also been the target of abuse and violence. What is
equally damaging for children is the relationship that exists
between the witnessing of violent domestic abuse and the
probability of becoming abusive later in life. Government of
Canada research illustrates that children who witness violence,
especially against a mother, are more likely to be abusive as adults.
This is tremendously troubling, considering that 39 per cent of
women have reported that their children were witnesses to violent
acts committed against themselves.
This points to a growing crisis that has dangerous social
implications for Canadian society. One of the problems in
overcoming domestic violence is the inability to break the cycle of
repeat abuse after a conviction has been made and a sentence has
been served. Ex-convicts regularly attempt to re-establish contact
with former spouses or family members with devastating effects.
Oftentimes victims are not aware their abusers are not back on the
street. They show up unannounced, occasionally with violent
intentions. Victims should be notified when a convicted abuser is
freed from jail so they may take precautions to protect themselves
and their children against repeat aggression.
Again, there is an imbalance here, which the Minister of Justice
suggested a few moments ago. The criminal justice system in my
view must become more focused on protecting victims from
harassment and intimidation.
The victims' bill of rights challenges the criminal justice system
to follow through, from beginning to end, charges related to
domestic violence. The system has learned to effectively take into
consideration the rights of the accused and the convicted, but it has
no corresponding capacity to link the victims of crime to the
process of justice. Without question a victims' bill of rights would
have a positive effect in redressing the imbalance which presently
exists.
(1310 )
Mr. Gordon Kirkby (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
I thank the hon. member for her comments. I join with her, as do all
members, to discuss and debate what can be done to assist victims
within the criminal justice system.
A statement of principles was adopted in 1988 by the federal and
provincial attorneys general and ministers of justice. Since that
time concrete legislative steps have been taken at the federal level
and in some cases at the provincial level to assist victims of crimes.
At the federal level we have implemented such legislation as Bill
C-68, gun control measures with the universal registration system
in place. Those who have been victims of violence from a spouse
through court process can initiate proceedings. The police when
guns and firearms are registered will be able to seize the firearms
of a person who has threatened or assaulted another.
I would like the hon. member to explain, when we are all doing
our best and what we can within the federal purview to assist
victims, why the Reform Party would vote against the registration
of firearms, which would make the world a safer place for victims.
Mrs. Brown (Calgary Southeast): Madam Speaker, at issue
today is the victims' bill of rights. The Minister of Justice
expressed in his delivery the appreciation for the broader debate
that does cross partisan lines.
I thank the hon. member for his comment but it seems he has a
singular focus today on the very flawed legislation of Bill C-68.
That is all I will to say with respect to that question. Some elements
of it are very good and there was certainly an indication of that on
our side of the House, but some elements of it are very wrong
2052
minded, create great inequities, are totally unfair and have very
little merit in terms of addressing the issue of crime in Canada
today.
I am a copious note taker. I was at the parole board hearing in
Bowden, Alberta on February 29 when the pedophile I mentioned
in my speech presented his arguments and his remorse. It was a
very self-centred presentation to the parole board hearing. All of us
sat in silence, as we were requested to do by the parole board.
If concrete steps have been taken, as the hon. member has
suggested, in addressing the issues of victims, which cover a host
of areas, I would be most happy to photocopy for him the dozen or
so pages I have that clearly point out that in spite of the concrete
steps he believes may have been taken they really do little to
address the issue.
When we have someone who has been incarcerated and has
taken a homecoming program to address his inner child, a human
sexuality course to address his sense of relationship, stress
management courses, an alternative islands program, self-esteem
programs, grief recovery programs, I would like to ask the hon.
member, and I certainly will in private, exactly what has been done
for the victims of the man who committed these horrendous crimes
against seven little girls.
I would like him to explain the concrete steps that have been
taken by the government to address the whole issue of victims and
the pathetic attempt to address the issue of the resources they have
no access to and the ridiculous matter he raises of gun control with
respect to a victims' bill of rights.
Mr. Bob Ringma (Nanaimo-Cowichan, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, I am pleased to rise today and speak on this motion before
us advocating a victims' bill of rights. It might be appropriate for
me to remind everyone of what the motion states:
That the House urge the government to direct the Standing Committee on
Justice and Legal Affairs to proceed with the drafting of a victims' bill of rights,
and that, in such areas where the committee determines a right to be more
properly a provincial concern, the Minister of Justice initiate consultations with
the provinces aimed at arriving at a national standard for a victims' bill of
rights.
(1315)
I am very pleased to note that this is a votable motion.
It is a timely and long overdue initiative which seeks to establish
the rights of victims and their families as a cornerstone of our
judicial system. That it has not been attempted in any substantive
or meaningful way by the government is a sad commentary on its
lack of commitment to safer streets and communities, although I
am heartened by some of the words I heard the Minister of Justice
speak in addressing this motion a short while ago.
Some colleagues across the way will no doubt disagree with
some of what we say on this issue. I also expect some of them will
vote against these proposals. If they listen, I am confident that our
discussion today will draw attention to the subject of victims
rights. In doing so, it is my hope to provide a voice in the House to
the thousands of people who are the real sufferers of crime each
year, the victims.
Victims for the purpose of this initiative also include the families
of the persons against whom the offence was perpetrated. For them
there is sometimes no escape from their suffering. All victims will
bear the psychological scars of their ordeals for years to come.
While a victims bill of rights may not address all their concerns,
the measure contained in this initiative in part would allow them a
say before every legal proceeding that deals with the disposition of
an accused. It is on this aspect of the victims bill of rights that I
would like to spend the remainder of my time.
Clause 3 of the proposed bill declares that every victim has the
right to choose between giving an oral and/or a written victim
impact statement before sentencing, before parole hearings and
before any judicial review. Simply put, victims and their families
are not presently guaranteed the right to make oral impact
statements at the trial of an accused, yet the accused seems to have
every right.
If accepted, this bill of rights would ensure that a victim could
choose to make such a statement at each stage where the legal
system deals with the accused or the convicted. It would also allow
them to determine if they want to give that statement verbally, in
writing, or both. I do not think that is an unreasonable proposal.
Being allowed to do both is significant. It would prevent the
courts from altering or editing a written victim impact statement.
That was done to the statement submitted by Mrs. Mahaffy in the
trial of Paul Bernardo. In that case, Mrs. Mahaffy submitted a
statement only to find that it had been edited to the point that it no
longer reflected what she wanted said about her daughter's death
and the impact it had on her family.
The bill does not stop there. The bill would also allow a victim
and their family to make a verbal impact statement at the parole
hearing of a convicted criminal. In this regard, I will share with
members in this House the tragic experience of a constituent of
mine.
Her name is Inge Claussen. Many in my riding of
Nanaimo-Cowichan will know her as my very capable
constituency assistant in Duncan. Seventeen years ago, Mrs.
Claussen's teenage daughter was abducted and brutally murdered.
An individual with a known criminal history was subsequently
charged and convicted of the crime.
Now, 15 years after being sentenced, this person-no, not
person-this animal is now scheduled for a section 745 parole
hearing asking for early release. Meanwhile the family of the slain
girl does not have the ability to give a verbal impact statement at a
parole hearing, after which this animal could be put back on the
2053
street where again it will have the opportunity to prey on more
innocent children.
(1320)
I sincerely hope no one should every have to endure the horror
this woman and her surviving family had to go through. Sadly
though, given reality, I must expect there is still a possibility of
that.
Rather than contribute to the pain and anguish of the victims and
their families, rather than sully the memory of those victims killed,
every effort should be made to give them a voice.
In the case of parole hearings, the right to make an oral victim
impact statement should be guaranteed, if only to serve as a
poignant reminder of the impact the offence had on a victim and the
victim's family. Just as important, such measures should ensure
victims of crime are treated as something more than observers of
the judicial process. In point of fact, it would allow them to be
active participants with something relevant to say, something
beyond what happened during the commission of the offence.
Victim impact statements allow an individual to share with the
court and for that matter share with the accused what the crime has
done to them. It makes all involved acutely aware of the suffering
endured by the victim and the victim's family. The catharsis of
being able to do so helps in the healing process of the victim and
allows them to form some semblance of closure on the incident.
However if the past actions of this government are any
indication, we are not likely to see the reforms we want as they are
outlined today any time soon. I hope from the words of the minister
today I am wrong in saying that.
As I reflect upon this government's effort in the area of criminal
reform addressing the rights of the victim, I am not encouraged.
The approach used seemingly and invariably puts the rights of the
accused ahead of the victim.
In recent years this country's criminal justice system has fallen
into disrepute among Canadians. Increasingly, there exists a
cynical opinion among many people that justice in this country is
spelled and hence viewed in two different ways. There is ``justice''
which is viewed and spelled in the traditional way and incorporates
the sacrosanct ideals of equality and fairness. Then there is ``just
us'', the albeit harsh reality exploited by defence attorneys and
their clients that the only people entitled to the principles of justice
are the accused.
Sadly, recent tinkering with the Criminal Code has done nothing
except enhance this unfortunate perception among Canadians. Real
reform and leadership is needed on the issue. Only courage by
legislators in this House will set things right.
I want to end my remarks by urging members opposite to put
aside any partisan beliefs they might have and consider very
seriously what is being proposed here. At the heart of this effort is a
sincere attempt to assist victims of crime and to put more justice
into the justice system.
When we vote on this motion, it does not have to necessarily be
about winning or losing. As long as we work from the premise that
these measures would benefit all Canadians who might one day
find themselves victimized by crime, we will have accomplished
something.
I ask members from all parties to join with me and support the
initiative before the House today.
Mr. Morris Bodnar (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Industry, Minister for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities
Agency and Minister of Western Economic Diversification,
Lib.): Madam Speaker, the statements made by the hon. member
refer to justice as being fairness, equality and the protection of
victims rights. I take it then the hon. member feels that is the
appropriate way to deal with it, since we want to treat people
equally.
(1325)
In dealing with amendments such as sexual orientation, human
rights legislation or amendments to the Criminal Code and the
treatment of people in the criminal justice system, justice is the
equal treatment of people, not preference for one group or another,
but equal treatment. Does the hon. member feel that the justice he
quotes, and not ``just us'', refers to members of gay communities as
well as heterosexual communities and their equal treatment in all
aspects of law, sentencing and in human rights legislation?
Mr. Ringma: Madam Speaker, I certainly believe in justice for
everyone.
The member in his intervention really is trying to take our focus
off the motion before us to say now that the rights of the gay
community are coming up, can we get a commitment from the
member. Justice is justice. I do not think we should single out any
particular group and say they should be given special rights. We are
saying justice for all.
The issue before us today is justice for the victims of crime as
opposed to the continued over justice for the perpetrators of crime.
That is what I would like us to zero in on.
Mr. Glen McKinnon (Brandon-Souris, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, before I commence the formal part of my address, let me
simply add that all members in the House know of some event or
some circumstance which has impacted either on them or on close
friends whereby the victim has had some long term scarring and
2054
would appear to have had very little public recourse in terms of
addressing that level of hurt.
My colleague for Erie who will be sharing my time with me, will
be adding to my comments today. I personally support the thrust of
the proposal members opposite are making today.
Throughout the country over many years there have been
attempts to put something in place. Manitoba has had some pilot
projects on victims services. I am sure that is true of other parts of
the nation as well. Various municipalities have engaged personnel
to attempt to assist a family or the victim of a crime, whether it be
vandalism, theft, or some other sort of violation. A system has been
put in place because of the difficulty in handling life after the fact.
The hon. member's concern for victims of crime is very
admirable. We have often heard the public criticize the judicial
system for placing the rights of the offender ahead of the rights of
victims. That was addressed to some degree by the previous
member with regard to justice for all. One cannot defend one side
or the other on that one.
I agree that more needs to be done to protect the rights of a
victim. I would also emphasize that we must be cautious. It is not to
imply that one way to achieve protection of a victim is to diminish
the rights of an offender. Therein lies the tricky part; not to allow
the legislation currently in place in human rights legislation or in
the charter.
(1330)
We would ask ourselves whether there is a necessary trade off
between competing rights. Is justice better served by somehow
reducing the rights of an accused person? The emergence of the
victims' rights movement in Canada is one of the most important
criminal justice trends we have seen in the last 20 years. Yet I doubt
any victim organization in Canada would advocate eliminating the
right of an accused to a fair trial, the right of due process, the
protection of habeas corpus or the protection of an accused against
self-incrimination. Do I need to remind the House there are rights
guaranteed to all Canadians under sections 7, 10 and 11 of the
charter of rights and freedoms?
I will not dwell on this matter of comparing the rights of the
accused with the rights of the victim, but this may be necessary in
considering the content of a bill of rights. I believe a more
constructive approach is simply put to determine where and how
the victim should be involved in the criminal justice process.
The concept we should embrace is access to justice for the
victim. At what point in the criminal justice process does the
victim deserve to have input? There were some suggestions in my
colleague's speech and I would not attempt to diminish the thrust
my colleague was putting forward.
However, are there various points along the process where we
can examine with close scrutiny where access should be made?
Should there be input to the police, to the investigation, to the trial
of the accused, at the sentencing stage and later at the parole
decision making stage and finally when the offender is released
from custody assuming that guilt is determined in the issue?
If we can provide the victim or the victim's family with
appropriate access to the criminal process in a timely fashion,
maybe we can be a little less concerned about who has more or who
has fewer rights.
Let us examine the progress made over the last two decades both
in terms of general recognition of the needs of the victim and
specific measures. Much of the policy and programs dealing with
the victims is derived from a report by a federal-provincial task
force on justice for victims of crime in the early 1980s, which
offered 79 recommendations to both levels of government for
improving social criminal justice and health responses to victims
of crime.
In 1985 Canada co-sponsored the United Nations declaration of
basic principles of justice for victims of crime. It was widely and
universally accepted that Canada was a leader in this movement.
This document soon became the basis for a unique Canadian
statement of principles. This statement was endorsed by the federal
government, the provinces and the territories in 1988. It has
provided a reference point for provinces to develop their own
policy and legislation on victims' rights, and most jurisdictions
now have victims oriented legislation.
It is important to note provinces' perspectives since provinces'
responsibility for the administration of justice means that not all
access to justice issues are under federal control.
The law now provides for victim impact statements. Section 735
permits provinces to determine the forum for the victim impact
statement in their jurisdiction. In effect this provision creates
flexibility, for example, by allowing police based victim witness
service programs to generate victim impact statements or
alternatively crown or court based services as appropriate.
Victim fine surcharge provisions were also added to the Criminal
Code by Bill C-89. The victim fine surcharge is an additional
monetary penalty imposed on an offender at the time of sentencing.
A victim fine surcharge is required to be imposed in addition to any
other punishment imposed on an offender convicted or discharged
of a Criminal Code offence or an offence under part III or part IV of
the Food and Drug Act.
(1335)
In addition to these surcharges, several provinces have passed
legislation to impose a victim's surcharge on provincial offences
and this revenue may also be used for victims' services in those
provinces.
2055
I will do my personal best to bring forward concerns and
information which will support this thrust by members opposite.
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I
would like to ask the member exactly what he meant when he said
do not let what we do for victims interfere with what we need to do
for criminals. A statement like that bothers me when we are
addressing victims' rights. Is he fearful that criminals will lose
rights because of our efforts?
Numerous victims' groups have been formed across the land.
There is FACT, Families Against Crime Today, which is led by Stu
Garrioch in Calgary. There is CAVEAT, which I am sure everyone
is familiar with. There is CRY in British Columbia. There is the
Move the Rock group. There is the kid brother campaign in
southern Ontario. There are thousands of people who belong to
victims' groups. The one thing they tell me is they would really
like to return to having some sort of a life; if only the government
would listen.
This government has been here two and a half years. These
groups are increasing. Would the hon. member comment on why he
thinks these groups are continually growing and why these people
cannot return to their previous lifestyles.
Mr. McKinnon: Madam Speaker, the member opposite raised
two very legitimate concerns.
It was not my intent to create the impression that we need not
worry about the victim, that we need worry only about the
perpetrator. The point I was making is we have to be cautious in
carrying through with our fundamental legal positions in
legislation and in the charter of rights and freedoms so that victims'
rights are not seen as removing the rights of offenders.
The second comment concerned the growing number of victims'
organizations. The member was adding to the number of persons
involved in those organizations. Those organizations are
symptomatic of the communications industry and how it has been
growing throughout the country. Nothing happens in Vernon, as an
example, that we do not hear about instantaneously throughout the
nation or throughout the world.
I have a daughter in Australia. We have already had
communications from that area because of the massacre that
happened there yesterday.
Let us not refocus the impact. We are simply attempting to
ensure victims and their families have some involvement in the
total criminal justice system. It is for that reason that I support the
member opposite in his opinions.
(1340 )
Mr. John Maloney (Erie, Lib.): Madam Speaker, at the outset I
wish to advise that I will support this initiative by my Reform
colleagues and will vote in favour of it.
I will endeavour to take a different approach in my remarks in
support of this position. I am pleased to address the House on this
motion for a bill of rights for victims because it is crime that
creates victims. I take this opportunity to look at the collective
measures all sections of society can take to give further importance
to the prevention of crime and victimization.
Crime prevention, particularly through social development and
multi-disciplinary approaches, addresses the underlying causes of
criminality and victimization and can provide long term safety and
security.
In Canada the need to prevent crime meaningfully is mobilizing
every sector of society, starting with citizens and the grassroot
organizations, service providers, the private sector and all levels of
government.
No country or community is immune from crime and its
devastating effects. However, a growing body of knowledge is
emerging with respect to comprehensive strategies, and this
information can assist communities that want to take action. There
is knowledge on how to mobilize our institutions and our citizens
and develop a partnership effort on assessing social, situational and
other factors associated with crime, planning and co-ordinating a
multi-disciplinary approach.
For a crime prevention plan to be truly representative and
responsive to local crime problems, the community should be
involved at all stages and in all aspects. It has been established that
the greater the degree of community participation and solidarity in
addressing social and crime related problems, the higher the level
of urban security.
The need for close co-operation between governments and
communities and for the establishment of broad coalitions of all
those concerned with crime problems cannot be stressed strongly
enough.
A meaningful strategy for the prevention of crime and
victimization encompasses four key elements. First, crime
prevention through social development consists of a
comprehensive approach to systemic crime prevention through
social development which targets the combination of social,
personal, educational and economical factors which place
individuals at risk and contribute to crime.
Our research suggests the various aspects and causes of criminal
behaviour share common characteristics such as personal, familial
and social breakdown. A social intervention approach, which seeks
actions through policies, programs and services already present in
the social development field such as social housing, health,
education, income security and social services, may lessen the
factors which may lead a person to crime.
The second is crime prevention through community
mobilization. The involvement of all sectors of the community in
the
2056
planning and implementation process of crime prevention
strategies must be an integral part of crime prevent. Community
safety and crime prevention strategies should address factors
associated with the prevention of crime and the needs and priorities
identified by their communities.
Third, situational crime prevention strategies or opportunity
reduction approaches such as neighbourhood watch, block parents
and crime prevention through environmental design have
considerable potential for reducing crime in Canada. Most police
agencies have established crime prevention units which promote
various community based programs aimed at reducing
opportunities for a specific crime such as vandalism, theft and
break and enter. However, such programs have limits, especially
over the long term, as offenders become displaced to other areas or
choose to commit other types of crime.
The fourth is effective justice approaches. The maintenance and
improvement of a fair and equitable criminal justice system is the
foundation to effective crime prevention. Actions such as the
control of firearms, the recognition that spousal abuse and child
abuse are crimes and that timely responses to young offenders
through appropriate and effective legislation and enforcement will
help to ensure that crime prevention is a reality.
Crime prevention targeted to the social causes of crime requires
a longer term and less visible effort than does catching perpetrators
or installing mechanical devices. Their concept requires a new
approach, where the belief that it can be done accompanies the
commitment to make it happen. More can be done to prevent crime
by interceding in practical ways and through social development
situations.
Key research on the benefits of crime prevention through social
development must be brought to the attention of all concerned
citizens, communities and the media. Canada has taken an
important step in putting greater emphasis on crime prevention by
developing a national strategy on community safety and crime
prevention. This took place following a major consultation with
stakeholder groups, through an in depth examination by a
parliamentary standing committee and through a national
symposium.
(1345)
The national strategy is a broad framework of action which
brings together a number of partners and a special focus on the
development of information and tools to help communities develop
and implement specific measures to meet its needs.
The strategy was developed in close co-operation with
stakeholders, including provinces and territories, which are
primarily responsible for many aspects of crime prevention and
which contribute to individual and community safety, such as
education, health, social services and the administration of justice.
Measures implemented on the national strategy by governments
and by non-governmental organizations include greater
co-ordination and communications, public education and
awareness, enhancing knowledge, support to communities,
incorporating crime prevention legislation and official mandates
and developing innovative funding strategies.
The establishment of a National Crime Prevention Council in
July 1994 was a key element of the national strategy. This body is
made up of 25 members from a variety of disciplines, including
education, social work, police, victims, private sector,
criminologists, public health, and so on. It serves as an adviser to
governments and a central co-ordination and information sharing
structure to unify crime prevention efforts and develop practical
solutions for communities.
The mandate of the council is very broad and reflects the fact
that Canada is only beginning to understand what can be done to
define the prevention of crime and victimization and help
communities become safer places.
The National Crime Prevention Council has adopted social
development as the most effective approach to crime prevention.
Children and youth are their key priorities, as a focus on early
prevention is the means to prevent victimization and criminal
behaviour later on.
It is developing prevention strategies that address the underlying
factors associated with crime, such as poverty, unemployment,
inadequate parenting, family violence, lack of opportunities,
systemic discrimination. Its members believe that the long term
solution lies in targeting services and resources that diminish the
effects of hardship and disadvantage and that provide children with
the best possible opportunity to fulfil their potential. The positive
results from these actions will benefit society in many ways and
will assist in reducing the rates of crime and victimization.
The council's work also includes looking at measures aimed at
strengthening families to safeguard children at risk. Earlier work
has pointed to the need for such measures to be comprehensive and
implemented at the national and international levels.
These measures should focus on mitigating the situation of
dysfunctional families or families characterized by erratic, absent
or excessive discipline, a high probability of mistreatment and a
lack of positive role models. Early intervention can help put an end
to the cycle whereby child abuse and the delinquency associated
with such abuse is passed on from generation to generation.
While the national strategy for community safety and crime
prevention and the national council are at early stages, I believe
that this work is very promising and that we have taken a decisive
2057
step toward safer communities. This is the type of work that in the
long term will prevent victimization.
As I indicated to our Reform colleagues, a positive and
constructive initiative such as this can and will be supported by this
member and can and will be supported by this Liberal government.
Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster-Burnaby, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to address a comment and a question to the
member.
To bridge the gap from the volunteer status for victim services
and the position of victims in the whole process, does the member
not see that specific legislation is needed to change the situation
from statements of principle and words of good intentions? This
would bring the status of victims into the mainstream of operations
where the victims have in law rights that can be enforced and they
have legal benchmarks to which the justice system can be held to
account when it fails to deliver on behalf of victims?
Mr. Maloney: Madam Speaker, I agree with my colleague. We
have already commenced some of these initiatives. Perhaps I can
refer to a few of them. Bill C-37 acknowledged victims'
declarations; Bill C-41 amended section 745 to ensure that the
victim could take part in deliberations; the Criminal Code which
allows for the victim's role in the entire process, victim's
statements and so on. There is a whole list of initiatives here which
certainly satisfy the suggestions my friend has made. Yes, I agree
with him, and yes, we are doing something about that.
(1350)
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Madam Speaker, as a
physician in my life before Parliament I would like to address the
final victims bill of rights statement that the victim should know if
a person convicted of a sexual offence has a sexually transmitted
disease. I would like to relay the specific case of Margot
Blackburn. In September, 1992 Margot was working in a church
rectory. A convict was in the church doing community service on a
day pass. The convict had a bad past record and he raped her.
He was caught of course, convicted and sentenced to 12 years in
prison. Margot, being up to date on medical issues, knew there was
a possibility of an infectious disease being transmitted to her. This
man was convicted. He admitted he had raped her. He said he was
sorry and all the other things.
Margot asked if he could have given her AIDS. She applied to
the court and asked for the perpetrator, Louis B., to have an AIDS
test. When I tell this story to high school students across the
country they look at me with horror when I say that the result was
no chance, no AIDS test, zero. The convict and his rights take
precedence over Margot Blackburn.
She wanted an AIDS test, and an eminently reasonable request it
was in my view, since there would have been a significant gap
between the time of infection and when a test would show positive
in her. If the convict was positive, she would know full well she had
reason to worry.
In Canada, the rights of the criminal in this case collide directly
with the rights of Margot, and take precedence. I say to the kids:
``You young ladies in this class, what do you think of the Canadian
justice system when I tell you that? Whose rights should take
precedence?'' I have not had a single, solitary student in grade 12
say to me that Louis B.'s rights should take precedence over
Margot's. They say absolutely not.
This issue, without question, puts the justice system into
disrepute. Reformers want to change that. If a conflict exists
between the rights of the victim and the rights of the criminal, the
rights of the victim must take precedence.
I found a very interesting recent editorial in a newspaper written
by someone who sits in this House, although not on this side, who
very eloquently said that. The Canadian Resource Centre for
Victims of Crime proposed in 1993 that the Criminal Code should
be amended so that a blood test can be ordered when the court is
satisfied that (a) reasonable grounds exist that the victim has been
exposed to risk of infection, and (b) the taking of blood can be done
without jeopardizing the life or safety from whom it is taken. In my
view, no one can argue with that.
I will discuss a second case of a victim in Canada who I consider
to be abused by our system. His name is Miles Fritz. He is a young
man who lives in Cayley, Alberta. He is a master electrician and
was working in the Yukon.
One evening while doing his dishes he heard a cry from outside.
His 64-year old neighbour had been set upon by three thugs. Miles
is a scrawny buzzard, something like me. Nevertheless he rushed
out to save his neighbour. He found the three thugs literally kicking
his neighbour unconscious. He leaped on them and beat them off.
However, one thug drew a knife and stabbed Miles in his right
forearm. Miles almost bled to death but they saved him with
transfusions. As a result of this, he has a permanent disability.
(1355)
A master electrician uses his right hand a lot. Miles has lost
some nerve function, he has lost some power and activity. He will
never again work as a master electrician.
The guy who stabbed him had been released on probation that
very morning from prison. He received a sentence of nine months
with two years' probation. What does Miles receive? Miles, who is
a hero in my eyes, who saved his neighbour's life, receives nothing.
Too bad, Miles, there is nothing for you.
2058
The perpetrator gets counselling in prison for his drug addiction,
for his past, for the way his mom and dad treated him, for the
poverty that he underwent. Miles, the hero, gets a kick in the shins.
Miles puts our criminal justice system into disrepute. Reformers,
every one of us, stand here today saying that if the rights of the
victim collide with the rights of the perpetrator, the rights of the
victim shall take precedence. We need a victims' bill of rights in
Canada. I call on my colleagues in a non-partisan way to bring this
to fruition quickly.
The Speaker: My dear colleague, when I showed you two
fingers, I did not mean that you actually terminate your speech at
the time. I was just indicating that time when I was going to go to
statements. If you wish to take the floor at the end of question
period, you still have time. Would you please indicate what you
would like to do?
Mr. Hill (Macleod): Mr. Speaker, since I was splitting my time
with the member for Surrey-White Rock-South Langley, my
time was over.
The Speaker: It being approximately two o'clock, we will now
proceed to Statements by Members.
_____________________________________________
2058
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[
English]
Mr. John English (Kitchener, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise today
to express both sadness and outrage for yesterday's cowardly bomb
attack on Lahore, Pakistan, where over 40 people, mostly women
and children, were burned beyond recognition. A bomb was placed
under the gas tank of a public bus, and as a result numerous lives
were lost and countless injuries sustained.
This senseless attack is only one of many in Pakistan's recent
history, where terrorist activity has become a part of everyday life
for many of its citizens. Canada will always condemn those who
choose the path of violence for political gain and support nations
which seek to eliminate these terrorist groups whose courage is no
more than the end of a gun barrel or the chemicals of a bomb.
I am confident that all Canadians support the determination to
rid Pakistan and other countries of terrorist activity. I wish to offer
my sincere condolences to the families suffering as a result of this
terrible bombing. Certainly it is the strength and determination of
the people of Pakistan to persevere that inspires many other nations
of the world enduring similar tragedies.
[Translation]
Mr. Richard Bélisle (La Prairie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, at 10
o'clock this morning, we learned about the death in the line of duty
of an investigator assigned to road safety for the police department
of the Communauté urbaine de Montréal, District 11, in Senneville.
During a routine operation, three shots were fired, and the victim
was mortally wounded. The unfortunate man was only two months
away from a well-deserved retirement after years of work for the
Montreal community.
We vigorously condemn this vicious murder of a law
enforcement officer. I join with all my colleagues in expressing our
heartfelt condolences to the victim's family and fellow officers at
the CUM.
I invite my colleagues from all political parties in this House to
observe one minute of silence in memory of this law enforcement
officer killed in the line of duty.
[Editor's Note: Whereupon the House stood in silence.]
* * *
[
English]
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, one
of the founding principles of the Reform Party is that the
punishment of crime and the protection of law-abiding citizens and
their property should be placed above all other objectives of our
justice system.
Instead, the Liberals emphasize apologizing to criminals and
offering them personal compensation when they participate in riots
and are injured.
Canadians want their government to send a strong message to
criminals that if they violate the rights of law-abiding citizens they
will be held accountable and society sanctions will have real teeth.
The Liberal government's refusal to listen to the people on such
measures as the repeal of section 745, the early parole provisions of
the Criminal Code, shows how out of touch it is with Canadians.
When Canadians go to the polls in the next election they will ask
themselves who has shown real commitment to protect them. Who
is willing to stand up and introduce common sense legislation that
puts the safety of our families and communities as its first priority?
On both accounts there is only one answer, the Reform Party of
Canada.
2059
Mr. John Solomon (Regina-Lumsden, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
this morning my private member's Bill C-220 calling for an energy
price commission was debated. The purpose of the legislation is to
protect consumers from gas price gouging by having oil companies
justify price increases.
The Reform Party opposed the bill and supported the oil
companies in their initiative to charge whatever the market will
bear. Liberals opposed the legislation because they believe the oil
companies are charging fair prices and should be encouraged to
charge higher gas prices.
In a referendum of nearly 4,000 people conducted in Regina
after hearing the oil companies' reasons for price increases, 93 per
cent voted in favour of regulating gas prices.
Why do Reformers and Liberals stand four square in support of
high gas prices? Why when farmers, business people and
consumers need and ask for protection from Parliament do the
Liberals and the Reform Party side with big business, the big oil
companies? Perhaps the answer lies in the fact that both these
parties receive substantial political contributions from the oil
industry.
* * *
Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, like many
Canadians, I awoke this morning to the horrifying news that 32
people had been cruelly murdered and countless others injured in
Tasmania last night.
Tasmanians have not had the benefit of gun control laws like
those in Canada. Automatic and semi-automatic weapons are freely
available. While people are licensed, their guns are not registered.
Canadians can take some measure of comfort knowing they have
done their part to ensure that in Canada we have a gun control
system second to none. Canadians elected a government that
campaigned on tougher gun control, a government that delivered.
Canadians supported a justice minister who remained courageous
and MPs who voted for reasonable protections.
On behalf of my constituents and all Canadians, to those who
lost a loved one and to those who are recovering from their injuries,
our thoughts and prayers are with you.
* * *
Mr. Walt Lastewka (St. Catharines, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Industry Canada recently announced an exciting new project called
Strategis. Strategis is Canada's largest business web site.
The goal of the government is to create a climate of opportunity
for businesses. Strategis supports this goal by putting the
knowledge, experience and expertise of Industry Canada in the
hands of small and medium size businesses.
Strategis is based on partnership with government, industry,
universities and community colleges all working together to
provide better access for businesses to the information they need to
compete.
Smaller communities like my riding of St. Catharines may not be
close to the hub of technology or government research, but with
Strategis the latest information on industries and companies,
market opportunities, advanced technologies and trade is available
on the business Internet.
I congratulate Keith McDonald from McDonald Systems &
Consulting for taking the initiative to spread the message of
Strategis. Strategis is about giving businesses a leg up. It is about
helping them succeed, grow and create jobs. It is up to the federal
government to create that opportunity.
* * *
Mrs. Jean Payne (St. John's West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on April
28 Canadians recognized a national day of mourning for all
Canadian men and women accidentally killed in the workplace.
(1405)
While accidental deaths and serious injuries in the workplace
can never be completely eliminated, the federal government is
determined to continue to work closely with provincial
governments, businesses, unions and workers in the area of
occupational health and safety to help identify hazardous and
potential high risk situations and to ultimately find solutions.
To the families, relatives, friends and communities that have
suffered the loss of a loved one or a friend to a work related
accident, my thoughts and prayers go out to you. One work related
accident death is one tragedy too many. We must never let up on
our commitment to improve safety in the workplace.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier-Montcalm, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, only a few days before the museum dedicated to race car
driver Gilles Villeneuve is officially inaugurated in Berthierville,
his son Jacques demonstrated yesterday at the European Grand Prix
that the Villeneuves' achievements are not over yet.
2060
By winning the Formula I Grand Prix on the course in
N«rburgring, Germany, Jacques Villeneuve showed that he is a
great driver just like his father.
Jacques, the people of Quebec admire you and the people of
Berthier are very proud of your victory.
Given Jacques Villeneuve's tremendous self-discipline, great
panache, determination and nerves of steel, this first checkered flag
is certainly not his last. This stunning victory is only the first step
on his way to the top.
Fasten your seat belts; Jacques Villeneuve is on the path to glory.
* * *
[
English]
Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster-Burnaby, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, exactly one week ago a Vancouver woman was awarded a
record $473,000 in civil damages as a result of charges that her
father sexually assaulted her from age three to well into her teens.
Some may laud the justice system for recognizing the plight of
the victim. She sued and she won. However, there are loopholes
which can prevent an innocent victim from ever being awarded
compensation. In this case the perpetrator has no intention of
paying. With the way Canada's bankruptcy laws operate the
defendant is able to claim personal bankruptcy and be freed of
having to pay these kinds of court orders. The offender gets off and
the victim is victimized all over again.
Members of the House industry committee will have the
opportunity to accept amendments as a result of my private
member's bill. Having the victim suffer once is bad enough.
Suffering twice for the same crime should be unthinkable.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac-Gatineau-Labelle, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, through the concerted efforts of employers,
employees and various levels of government, the number of work
related injuries, accidents and deaths in Canada has dropped
substantially over the past ten years.
Much still remains to be done, but we are convinced that the
climate of co-operation that exists between our partners, and the
various prevention initiatives will help eliminate this perennial
problem, which has terrible human consequences for our country.
Beyond the annual cost of work related accidents with respect to
health and social services, it is the human dimension that most
concerns us and that we are commemorating today.
Mr. Speaker, certain ceremonies-
The Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but his
time is up. The hon. member for Mercier has the floor.
* * *
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, last week
the Liberal government decided to take the shameful action of
gagging debate in order to ram through two controversial
legislative measures: Bill C-31 on the GST and Bill C-12 on
unemployment insurance, once again demonstrating the federal
government's lack of sensitivity to the public.
Before the Liberals came to power, no government, not even the
Conservatives, had dared make use of the House to gag the
deliberations of a committee.
The Liberal government prefers to obey its mandarins and
certain powerful lobbies, rather than lend an ear to the population.
The Speaker: My dear colleague, it is not generally permitted to
discuss a vote that has taken place in this House. Moving on, the
hon. member for Nepean has the floor.
* * *
[
English]
Mrs. Beryl Gaffney (Nepean, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, recently in
my riding of Nepean three tragic deaths have been the result of
drinking drivers. I refer to the loss of life of Dr. Michael Agapitos,
Linda LeBreton Holmes and her son Brian.
Despite proclaimed amendments to the Criminal Code, cases
before the courts are consistently being stayed, unnecessarily
delayed or even dismissed. Grieving families, like the Agapitos
and Holmes families, experience prolonged and unnecessary
suffering due to court delays.
(1410)
The Canadian justice system and the provincial court system
must bring their full weight to bear on these criminals. The laws are
there. They are in place. The courts and all Canadians must
demonstrate zero tolerance for drinking and driving. Justice
delayed is justice denied.
* * *
Ms. Jean Augustine (Etobicoke-Lakeshore, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, ``Survivors in Search of a Voice: The Art of Courage'' is a
2061
unique collection of art works inspired by the stories of pain, hope,
fear and courage of breast cancer patients and survivors.
This internationally acclaimed art exhibit of 24 of Canada's top
women artists appearing this week at the Government Conference
Centre was inspired by 100 breast cancer survivors who told the
artists of their life and death struggles with cancer. It is from these
moving experiences that this show's powerful images emerge.
Breast cancer strikes one out of every nine women in Canada.
``Survivors in Search of a Voice'' has become a monument to the
courage of women and their families in their fight against breast
cancer.
We can numb to the realities of the daily battles for life that
happen around us, but I encourage members of the House and of
this community to support much needed breast cancer research,
education, programs and services by taking the time to view this
exhibit and to become a partner in this endeavour.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, 34 people in Hobart, Australia, have been shot down in
cold blood by a madman, and another 18 wounded. Among the
wounded are two Canadians, Simon and Susan Williams of the
Canadian High Commission to Australia.
Regrettably, this event calls to mind the recent tragedies in
Vernon, B.C., and in Dunblane, Scotland, as well as the École
polytechnique massacre in Montreal, in 1989.
On behalf of my colleagues, and on behalf of the Bloc
Quebecois, I wish to express our most sincere condolences to the
families of the victims. We hope that they will be able to find in
themselves all of the courage and energy required to get through
this terrible ordeal.
* * *
[
English]
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, today
in the House of Commons my hon. colleague from Fraser Valley
West introduced a motion calling for a victims' bill of rights. This
proposal could make historic changes to our judicial system by
finally enshrining victims' rights on an equal footing with those of
criminals.
In the past two years the legislation presented by the Liberal
government has proven that the very last thing it considers is the
victim. This astounds me when Canadians from coast to coast tell
me violent crime is on the increase and therefore we know the
number of victims will increase as well.
This is evident in the number of victims' rights groups formed
over the past 20 years across the nation. I have met with many of
them and all are in support of a victims' bill of rights. In my
opinion a victims' bill of rights is the least we can provide them so
they are no longer victimized by our so-called justice system.
This is an opportunity to do the right thing and give the rights to
the victims, as they so well deserve.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Mark Assad (Gatineau-La Lièvre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, a
few weeks ago the premier of Quebec gathered together business
people and union leaders and, in response to pressure from these
people, everyone agreed to talk not about the referendum but about
economic and social matters in Quebec.
And now, this past weekend, the premier of Quebec threatened
not only the Government of Canada, but the people of Quebec, with
an early election and another referendum if the Government of
Canada took it into its head to clarify the rules on referendums.
Quebecers are not pawns that are moved about on a board to
satisfy the ambitions of political parties to the detriment of the
economic recovery and prosperity of the people of Quebec.
* * *
Mr. Patrick Gagnon (Bonaventure-Îles-de-la-Madeleine,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as a member of the ministerial task force on
youth, I am pleased to announce the launch of youth week '96,
which begins today and continues until May 5.
Youth week 1996 recognizes and highlights the many
contributions young people have made to building Canada. Some
50 events will be held throughout the country to celebrate their
many achievements. More than 60 youth organizations will
co-ordinate activities to encourage young people to come up with
new ideas for the betterment of their generation.
(1415)
In the coming weeks, the task force will ask young Canadians
and employers what can be done to do help young people make the
transition between home, school and the working world. We are
keen to hear what the young people have to say, because investing
in youth, that is, in the future, is a priority for the Government of
Canada.
>
2062
2062
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[
Translation]
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Leader of the Opposition, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, now that the Deputy Prime Minister is here, we can start.
Editorial writers in the weekend newspapers were appalled by
the attitude of the Deputy Prime Minister, who now refuses to
honour her formal promise to resign if her government did not
scrap the GST. The Globe and Mail is now calling for the Deputy
Prime Minister's resignation, while La Presse argues, with good
reason, that her attitude seriously undermines the credibility of all
politicians in Canada.
Since the Deputy Prime Minister had the time to reflect on all
this on the weekend and since there is a wide consensus across
Canada that she should resign, does she not feel that she should go
back on her decision and honour her promise to resign?
Hon. Sheila Copps (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, one thing is for certain: I
did not make any decision on my political future because of the
editorials in the Toronto and Montreal newspapers.
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Leader of the Opposition, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, since the Deputy Prime Minister herself had insisted that
killing the GST should be a formal election promise, she cannot
claim today that she spoke a little too fast, without thinking, and
that it was an honest mistake.
Will she admit that not only her credibility but that of the whole
government is at stake in this matter and that she should therefore
resign, at least as Deputy Prime Minister and as a cabinet member?
Hon. Sheila Copps (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have always told
voters-before, during and after the election-that a two-tax
system causes many problems for small and medium size
businesses, many problems in terms of trade, and that what we are
doing with the new tax is introducing a harmonized system in
keeping with our commitments on page 22 of the red book.
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Leader of the Opposition, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, the Deputy Prime Minister should note that what causes
problems for business, for all Canadians and for politicians is that a
cabinet member is not keeping her promise. That is a source of
problems.
By failing to resign, does the Deputy Prime Minister admit that
she is undermining the integrity of the whole government and that
she will then bear the heavy burden of creating a precedent in
Canada by refusing to respond and to honour her promise? Does
she not realize that she is undermining the integrity of the whole
government, since she must honour her promises as a member of
the government?
Hon. Sheila Copps (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we are meeting our
commitment. On page 22 of the red book, we promised to replace
the GST with a new tax that would be easier for trade purposes as
well as for small business and for consumers.
That is why the Consumers' Association of Canada, the
Canadian Manufacturers' Association and the organizations
representing Canada's small businesses support what we are doing.
That is why I do not have to resign for fulfilling our promises on
page 22 of the red book.
(1420)
Mrs. Pierrette Venne (Saint-Hubert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, does
the Deputy Prime Minister realize that, by not fulfilling a formal
commitment made during the election campaign, she casts
discredit on all politicians in this country, and that her only option
is to resign? She has no choice, she must resign.
[English]
Hon. Sheila Copps (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I certainly do not accept
the claim of the hon. member that I am discrediting women in
politics.
[Translation]
I do not want to brag about women in politics, but Canadian
women are well aware that if there is someone who worked hard to
include them in politics it is my leader and my party.
During the last election campaign, the leader of the hon.
member's party did not believe in a policy to recruit women; he did
not want one. We had such a policy and I am proud that 37 women
are currently in this House, thanks to our policy.
Mrs. Pierrette Venne (Saint-Hubert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, given
the seriousness of the situation, and given that the Deputy Prime
Minister refuses to resign to fulfil her commitment and preserve
the credibility of her government, will she agree to submit her case
to the Prime Minister's ethics counsellor, so that he can submit his
written conclusions to the House?
Hon. Sheila Copps (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, what is really sad is that
the Bloc uses one of its few female members to do this job. I find it
deplorable and so should the other women in their caucus.
2063
[English]
Mrs. Sharon Hayes (Port Moody-Coquitlam, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, broken promises are fast becoming the watchword for this
Liberal government. It has broken its promise on the GST. The
Deputy Prime Minister has broken her promise to resign. By
booting the member for York South-Weston out of caucus, the
government has broken its promise to give its MPs greater
freedom.
The red book clearly states that more free votes would be
allowed in the House of Commons. I ask the Deputy Prime
Minister this. Will her government keep one crucial promise and
allow MPs to represent the wishes of their constituents in a free
vote on the proposed gay rights amendment?
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Labour and Deputy
Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, since we formed the government we amended the rules of
this House. We allowed free votes on every private member's bill
and motion. We allowed committees to propose legislation which
was never done before. For example, take the case of Bill C-69.
This was a bill that came from the procedure and House affairs
committee and was sent to the Senate, but was passed by this
House. It was a bill that did not come from the government. It came
from committee.
We are gradually implementing all our reforms on how this place
is going to work and we will continue to do so. We have had free
votes and free votes will continue to exist.
Mrs. Sharon Hayes (Port Moody-Coquitlam, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, on page 92 of the Liberal red book the Prime Minister
promised that ``more free votes will be allowed in the House of
Commons''.
To date we have yet to see one free vote on any piece of
government legislation. Canadians have some very strong views on
the gay rights issue and they deserve to be truly represented in this
House.
I ask the Deputy Prime Minister again, will her government
allow a free vote on its proposed amendments to the human rights
act?
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Labour and Deputy
Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I do not know where the member has been. For the last
two and a half years practically every week when this House is in
session we have free votes on private members' bills and private
members' motions and we continue to do so.
(1425 )
In terms of her specific question, she has to wait. The Prime
Minister will make a decision in due course.
Mrs. Sharon Hayes (Port Moody-Coquitlam, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, it appears the Prime Minister is not willing to hold a free
vote on this amendment. I hope that does not mean that closure is
next.
How times have changed. The Liberals used to howl with
outrage every time the Mulroney Tories limited debate. Now,
whenever they start taking political heat from Canadians, they
automatically introduce closure. They did it with MP pensions,
they did it with gun control, they did it with the budget and UI
reforms to name just a few.
Will the government allow all Canadians to have their say on this
important amendment? Will the Prime Minister promise not to use
closure to ram it through the House of Commons?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister will decide
whether this party will have a free vote on that amendment and he
will do that when it is appropriate to do so.
In response to the question put by the hon. member, first, the
reality is that for a party such as hers which is so interested in
taking head counts in polls before deciding how its members will
vote, the party opposite should know that as recently as this
weekend the Liberal Party of Canada had no difficulty in deciding
where it stands on the issue by overwhelmingly voting in favour of
the amendment we proposed. Second, an Angus Reid poll which
polled the views of Canadians across the country announced that
the vast majority of Canadians are behind this amendment.
If that is not good enough for the Reform Party, there is
something wrong with it.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Deputy Prime Minister.
At the meeting of the Quebec branch of the Liberal Party, the
Prime Minister waxed eloquent about the integrity of his
government. And yet, in the Somalia affair, there are growing signs
that information was falsified and concealed. Even the chief of
defence staff, General Boyle, who was personally chosen by the
minister of defence, appears to be very seriously implicated in this
affair.
Does the Deputy Prime Minister realize that the credibility of
her government is compromised by the systematic refusal of her
defence minister to suspend General Jean Boyle until the inquiry is
over?
[English]
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of National Defence and
Minister of Veterans Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this question
2064
has been asked a number of times in recent days and I am
compelled to give the same answer.
We have a process in motion. A commission of inquiry is
looking into all aspects of the Canadian force deployment to
Somalia. Some other issues that are perhaps tangential but which
may deal with the documentation issue with respect to Somalia
have been raised. The commission has started hearings and those
hearings are ongoing.
All people concerned will have the opportunity to give their side
of events and their points of view over the next couple of weeks. I
would ask the hon. member the basic courtesy to allow all those
people to come forward and let the decision be made by the
commission in due course.
[Translation]
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am quite
prepared to observe the basic courtesies, but normally, when
someone is the subject of an inquiry, he is temporarily suspended,
precisely in order to get to the bottom of the events at issue. It is a
question of credibility.
Since General Boyle was directly implicated by certain
witnesses, why is the minister of defence making an exception to
this sacrosanct rule by refusing to suspend the general until the
inquiry is over?
[English]
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of National Defence and
Minister of Veterans Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would submit
that those lacking credibility are the members of the opposition
who will not allow the normal Canadian judicial process to take its
normal course and allow people every right to give their side of
events in an impartial setting.
It is not we who are out of step, it is the opposition that is out of
step with the ideas and values of Canadians.
* * *
(1430 )
Mr. Randy White (Fraser Valley West, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
earlier today the justice minister said he was willing to support the
Reform Party's efforts to develop a national victims' bill of rights.
He also he indicated there would be a free vote on that issue
today at 6.30 p.m. Could he confirm it?
The Speaker: I did not know where the question was leading.
That is anticipating an order of the day. That question is out of
order, but if he has another question he would like to put, I will
permit it.
Mr. Randy White (Fraser Valley West, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
think I got my point across.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West): Mr. Speaker, I will go to a
supplementary.
If there is a free vote for a victims' bill of rights, why is it that
the government will not commit to a free vote on gay rights?
The Speaker: I think somehow they are intrinsically tied. I am
going to give the member the benefit of the doubt. The second part
of the question is in order. The minister may answer the question if
he likes.
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let me put the hon. member out of
his misery.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Rock: We will be here a long time if we wait until the hon.
member finds the right way to ask the question.
The answer of course, is that when there are resolutions, as there
are today involving victims' rights, members of this party vote as
they see fit. I already told the House this morning that I am going to
be voting in favour of the resolution because I share the objectives
expressed by the hon. member. I expect that other members of the
government side will vote as they see fit.
We are doing that because the resolution before the House today
raises issues in which we share the objectives of all members of the
House, that victims be treated properly and with dignity throughout
the criminal justice system.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier-Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, the pharmaceutical industry is the main sector of
biomedical research in Canada, accounting for more than $561
million in R and D investments in 1994. It is, moreover, one of the
few healthy sectors of the Montreal economy. According to a
number of sources, however, the government appears to be
preparing to modify the link regulations under Bill C-91.
Will the Minister of Industry confirm that his government is
preparing to modify regulations relating to Bill C-91 on the
pharmaceutical industry in such as way as to greatly reduce the
protection of drug patents?
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Industry, Minister for the
Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, Minister of Western
Economic Diversification and Minister responsible for the
Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec, Lib.): Mr.
2065
Speaker, I have indicated to both types of pharmaceutical
industries, the generic and the multinationals, that it is important
for them to consider the impact of these regulations. Despite their
highly complicated nature, it is vital that they work to the benefit of
all Canadians.
I would, therefore, ask the hon. member to explain his position
on these regulations. I am open to his ideas, because it is important
for us to determine the best way of implementing the regulations.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier-Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, we need to try to decode this. It is my impression that the
hon. member is trying to tell us that he will be doing something to
Bill C-91, as they tried to last year in response to Ontario lobbying.
It was very clear at the time, but now they are trying to do the same
thing in secret. We too have met with drug companies, and they do
not share the minister's opinion in the least.
Will the minister repeat in this House the commitment made on
April 28, 1994 not to touch the Drug Patents Act, either directly or
indirectly, before the spring of 1997, or in other words not until the
time set for its re-assessment?
(1435 )
[English]
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Industry, Minister for the
Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, Minister of Western
Economic Diversification and Minister responsible for the
Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I want to be perfectly clear on this issue. The member is
quite right. A review period was established in Bill C-91 that will
come into effect in the spring of 1997.
At the same time, he understands that the NOC link regulations
which were enacted pursuant to section 55(2) of that legislation are
very complex. In order to determine whether they have the desired
effect of appropriately balancing the interests that lie in this area
between the rights of patent holders to protect their patents-which
I believe is what he is endeavouring in suggesting that these should
not be changed-against the interests that consumers have in the
legitimate acquisition of generic products when patent rights have
expired-to which I am sure he also does not object-I think he
understands that the essence of patent protection is that it extends
for a period of time after which it ends. That is the law.
The NOC link regulations are intended to establish a mechanism
whereby both interests are adequately protected. In order to
determine whether that has been achieved we are looking at the
litigation that has ensued from those regulations and we will
determine what the best result is to follow from that.
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
Canadian women are dying because of a fatal flaw in the way the
police are forced to handle domestic violent cases.
The tragic shooting rampage in Vernon, B.C. where a man killed
himself after shooting his estranged wife and eight members of her
family illustrates what can happen when warning signs are ignored
for whatever reason.
Does the the justice minister not agree that it could save lives if
we gave police the power to follow through on domestic violence
charges after a complaint is made, whether the complainant asks
for the charges or not?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, such discretion is provided for
already and is well within the administrative powers of police
forces at present.
While I recognize the very genuine concern on the part of the
hon. member in his question and the tragedy in Vernon, I must say,
before concluding my response, that there is a healthy measure of
irony in the hon. member's question.
It was the member and his colleagues who for months stood in
the House to oppose the measures we introduced in Bill C-68 to
more rationally control access to and use of firearms, to put in
place systems and processes that would enable authorities to follow
up in cases of domestic abuse and to make sure firearms are
removed from persons who represent a danger to themselves or
others.
To hear the hon. member today suggesting that further steps
should be available in such cases is indeed a very distinct irony.
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
probably should ask if the justice minister feels any better that
these victims were shot with a registered gun. I wonder if that
would make any difference.
In the mass murder in Vernon, the estranged wife did not ask for
charges to be laid because she was afraid for her life, naturally.
However, 10 people are dead because the police were handcuffed.
Contrary to what the minister has said, is he saying today that
there is no way we can give the police the tools they are asking for,
or the tools victims' rights groups are asking for, or the tools that
Canadians are asking for to help prevent more needless deaths in
these kinds of tragedies?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, all the tools or remedies or
procedures that the hon. member is suggesting are either already
available or well within the grasp of police forces in Canada. It is a
2066
question of the police forces themselves making use of those
remedies and those procedures.
With respect to the nature of the gun being responsible for the
tragedy in British Columbia, let me observe that the reason we are
after the registration of all firearms and the reason the House has
now approved that in Bill C-68 is that information available to the
police to better enable them to predict such tragedies and take
remedial steps to remove firearms will be available to all police
across the country. That is what we achieved with Bill C-68.
* * *
(1440)
[Translation]
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez (Bourassa, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question
is for the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration.
A report released on March 14 by the American secretary of state
confirms that atrocities and human rights violations are on the rise
in Algeria. However, the Government of Canada continues to
refuse to suspend the deportation order hanging over the heads of
Algerian nationals who have taken refuge in Canada.
Will the minister finally acknowledge that a climate of violence
prevails at the moment in Algeria and that Algerian nationals
should, like nationals of other countries selected by her
department, benefit from a suspension of deportation measures?
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (Minister of Citizenship and
Immigration, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the advisory committee looking
at conditions in countries where people are deported meets
regularly to assess situations in various countries, because, as you
know, when we decide to send someone back to his country, the
risks are always evaluated.
Obviously, we will not send someone back to his own country
when there may be reprisals or his life is at risk. We are very
careful on this. We study each case, each file, when individuals are
to be deported. For the time being, we are continuing deportations
to Algeria.
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez (Bourassa, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the minister
seems to be totally unaware of the rise of fundamentalism in
Algeria, and her advisory committee is meeting behind closed
doors.
How does the minister explain that decisions on whether
deportation orders are to be suspended for a given country are made
in conditions of secrecy, according to criteria known only to her
officials? Why is Algeria not among the countries presenting a
risk?
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (Minister of Citizenship and
Immigration, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, each situation is considered on
its merit. For a given country as a whole, various factors are taken
into consideration. We are well aware of what is going on in each
country. We also know what has happened to people after we sent
them back to certain countries. We have consulted various
authorities internationally as well.
I will repeat what I said. Each time we make a decision regarding
a particular individual, we evaluate the potential risks they run in
returning to their country. For the time being, we will continue to
send people back to Algeria and continue to study each case in
detail.
* * *
[
English]
Mr. John Murphy (Annapolis Valley-Hants, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Minister of Health met with his provincial and
territorial colleagues last week to discuss reforms to the blood
system.
Justice Krever said in his interim report that our blood system
was already one of the safest in the world. However, reports
indicate a low level of confidence by Canadians in our system.
Can the minister tell the House what steps he plans to take to
make our blood system better?
Hon. David Dingwall (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
last week there was a meeting of federal-provincial ministers of
health where the blood system and its management was the major
topic of discussion.
All provinces agreed it was important that we move collectively
to try to restore public confidence in the blood system. All
ministers of health agreed that we do have a safe blood system but
we want to make it safer. As a result over the next number of weeks
we have directed our officials to come back with a plan whereby we
can have a system of governance where the lines of accountability
and responsibility are very clear, transparent and open. By way of a
working relationship, officials are directed to do meaningful
consultations with all stakeholders, not just government
representatives, but consumers and various activist groups across
the country.
* * *
Mr. Bob Ringma (Nanaimo-Cowichan, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
this afternoon I was stunned to learn that a government lawyer
appearing in front of the Somalia commission opined that the
commission had no mandate to look at the alleged cover-up of
information from the Department of National Defence. The
Minister of National Defence day after day and week after week
has been telling us to relax and take it easy, that the Somalia
commission will give us all the facts on this. What is his story
today?
2067
(1445)
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the issue to which the hon. member
refers involves a request by counsel for some of the parties to look
at hours and hours of videotape in respect of which as I understand
it production has already been made with respect to summaries of
the evidence that was recorded thereon. The position taken by
counsel for the department on that request is that the commission's
time is better spent looking at other issues than at looking at hours
and hours of videotape which may not be germane or relevant and
the substance of which has already been disclosed.
I can say that the position taken by counsel is based on the
premise that this is a collateral matter. May I also say my
understanding is that counsel has offered to the commission that it
should look at the hours and hours of videotape and decide for itself
whether there is any purpose to be served in taking time to display
it.
Mr. Bob Ringma (Nanaimo-Cowichan, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
am not sure the public is going to be very happy with the answer
from the Minister of Justice.
I will ask the Minister of National Defence again, how are you
going to guarantee that the public-
The Speaker: My colleagues, all of your questions are to be
directed through the Chair. Would you please rephrase your
question.
Mr. Ringma: Mr. Speaker, through you to the Minister of
National Defence, how will the minister guarantee to the public of
Canada that the Somalia commission will get to the bottom of all of
the allegations concerning General Boyle and the whole alleged
cover-up of information in the Somalia affair?
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of National Defence and
Minister of Veterans Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, to answer the
hon. member's question, the guarantee is contained in the terms of
reference for the inquiry. I would hope that he reads the terms of
reference.
It is not for us to debate on the floor of the House of Commons
procedural matters that appear before the commission. That is
something between the commissioners and the counsel for the
various people appearing, including the government. It is not for
here in the House of Commons.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Laurent Lavigne (Beauharnois-Salaberry, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transport.
For 10 years now, the municipality of Salaberry-de-Valleyfield
has been asking the federal government to take action to protect
residents from the dangers of train derailments. Even though it
privatises railway companies, the government is still responsible
for safety in the railway sector.
Following the fifth derailment in six years in
Salaberry-de-Valleyfield, what does the minister intend to do to
protect residents against these freight trains in urban areas?
[English]
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of Transport, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the issue of hazardous cargoes on trains, ships or aircraft
is closely examined by the department. In the specific area the
member has mentioned where there has been concern expressed by
local authorities, it is being looked at by the Department of
Transport at the present time.
As the member indicated in the preamble to his question, it is a
subject that goes back a fair length of time involving rerouting of
lines. As soon as I have information on this subject, I will be happy
to share it with him.
[Translation]
Mr. Laurent Lavigne (Beauharnois-Salaberry, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, I am sorry, but the situation has been going on for 10 years
and it is dangerous in Valleyfield. When the most recent derailment
occurred in Salaberry-de-Valleyfield, two railroad cars could have
been carrying toxic chemicals.
Is the minister waiting for a chemical spill to occur in a
residential area before taking action to protect residents? These
trains go by polyvalente schools and travel close to a school and to
the hospital. What does the minister intend to do?
[English]
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of Transport, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, as I indicated in my earlier response, the issue of
hazardous substances carried in tank cars or in other rail cars is a
matter of serious concern.
The difficulty the member has posed is that because of the nature
of this country's development, rail lines quite frequently pass
through inhabited and municipal areas. It is simply not possible to
give the type of blanket guarantee he has requested. I can assure
him however that the specific concern of this area and the
possibility of any bypass or diversion will be looked at. In fact, it is
currently being looked at.
2068
(1450)
Mr. Jim Silye (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, as the
second most senior spokesperson in Canada, the Deputy Prime
Minister has now managed to bring some dishonour to herself and
to reaffirm the cynicism-
The Speaker: Colleagues, words such as ``dishonour'' or
``dishonesty'' are not acceptable in the House. I would ask the hon.
member to withdraw the statement.
Mr. Silye: Mr. Speaker, I will withdraw the word ``dishonour''
and rephrase the question.
The Deputy Prime Minister has now managed to bring into
question her actions and has reaffirmed the cynicism toward
self-serving politicians, all because she will not hold herself
accountable for the things she says and does and her current failure
to stand on principle and integrity.
Will the Deputy Prime Minister explain why she insists on
defending her bait and switch political say anything, do anything
campaign to get elected?
Hon. Sheila Copps (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, that certainly is not what I
have done.
Mr. Jim Silye (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the hon.
member continues to swim in a sea of confusion.
The Liberals have not kept their promise on page 22. It is not
revenue neutral. It is not better for consumers. It does not promote
provincial harmony; it promotes disharmony.
Her actions strike at the core of why politicians are at the bottom
of the barrel in terms of respect. Fifty-one Reformers promised to
opt out of the gold plated pension plan and we did. That is integrity.
That is honour and it is standing on principle. Why will the Deputy
Prime Minister not do the same thing, deliver on her promise to
resign, put her seat where her mouth is and seek re-election if she is
so confident she has done nothing wrong?
Hon. Sheila Copps (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's claim
that it would make more sense to resign and then have a $100,000
byelection to make a political point runs counter to the view of the
people. People have an opportunity in an election to make their
point. If the people of Hamilton East want to fire me in the next
election, certainly that will be their right.
* * *
Mrs. Eleni Bakopanos (Saint-Denis, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
riding of Saint-Denis has a significant concentration of industries
in the textile manufacturing sector. The recent threats by the United
States to reduce imports are of grave concern to these
manufacturers. My question on behalf of them is for the Minister
for International Trade.
What is the use of NAFTA if the United States can change the
rules by arbitrarily increasing restrictions on the import of wool
suits from Canada?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, any measure by the United States to
unilaterally change the rules of NAFTA will be met with resistance
and the appropriate response.
We have successfully negotiated through NAFTA an agreement
relevant to wool suits. It is one which we paid the price for at the
time. We are acting completely within our rights and obligations
under NAFTA and I would expect the United States would as well.
In addition to that, even though we have been quite successful in
moving wool suits from $5.6 million to $112 million in just five
years, there still is a billion dollar trade surplus the United States
has with us in terms of textiles and apparel. Therefore in addition to
that, there is no cause for complaint.
* * *
[
Translation]
Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport-Montmorency-Orléans,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transport.
The salary of CN president Paul Tellier was set by Ottawa at
$350,000 annually for the years 1993-1995. Mr. Tellier also
benefited from a generous mortgage loan from CN. Now, according
to documents released a few days ago by CN, it appears that Mr.
Tellier also received the sizeable amount of $200,000 in bonuses.
(1455)
In these times of budget restrictions for CN, which eliminated
over 11,000 jobs, how could the government agree, before
privatization, to such generous bonuses to someone already earning
a more than decent salary?
[English]
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of Transport, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the compensation of senior public servants and people in
the private sector is not normally a matter to be discussed in the
House.
The important matter which I think must be borne in mind by
members on all sides of the House is to make sure that for our
major corporations we get the most competent people possible.
2069
I would suggest to the hon. member that as CN is in the process
of being totally privatized, it perhaps would be inappropriate at
this point for us to comment upon his salary as president of a
private corporation.
* * *
Mr. John Cummins (Delta, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the fisheries
minister's west coast plan will take 50 per cent of the fleet away
from B.C. fishermen. At the same time the Nisga'a treaty and other
commercial sales agreements could transfer as much as 50 per cent
of the commercial catch to natives.
How can the minister possibly justify a 50 per cent reduction in
the fleet, one that fishermen will pay dearly for, and at the very
same time a 50 per cent reallocation of the commercial catch to
native fisheries?
Hon. Fred Mifflin (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, first of all the hon. member has some of his facts
wrong.
In the sense of the commercial fishery and the 50 per cent
reduction, we may not be able to achieve that in the short term. The
maximum we could achieve is around 40 per cent through a series
of licensing restrictions, licence stacking and voluntary buy back.
From the round table discussion which stemmed from the report,
my understanding is that the seiners wanted it around 30 per cent,
the gill net representatives wanted it between 30 and 35 per cent
and the trawlers wanted it between 25 and 50 per cent. What we are
doing in this case is we are representing essentially what the
industry has asked for.
With respect to the Nisga'a the hon. member is totally wrong.
The maximum number involved is around 25 per cent. This is done
with the agreement of most of the parties involved. The Nisga'a
have been negotiating for over 100 years and we have finally come
to an agreement. I do not think it is right for the hon. member to try
to throw off this very honourable agreement in principle on the
basis of information which is not based on fact.
* * *
Mr. Svend J. Robinson (Burnaby-Kingsway, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Labour.
Yesterday people across Canada marked the national day of
mourning for persons killed or injured at the workplace.
Will the minister assure the House that he will reverse the recent
cuts in resources for enforcement of part II of the Canada Labour
Code and instead significantly strengthen enforcement, particularly
in light of the study by his own official, Henry Nur, which
documents a direct link between decreased enforcement and
increased injury and death at the workplace?
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Labour and Deputy
Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, yesterday was the national day of mourning on which I
made a statement in the House on Friday. A number of union
leaders and I were not far away from the House commemorating
this important and historic day, which 10 years ago Parliament
decreed would be the day every year we would remember those
people who have lost their lives in the workplace.
The labour program is reviewing part II of the Canada Labour
Code which concerns health and safety. A group is working
together and has reached a consensus on 90 per cent of the issues.
We hope that before the end of the year we can amend part II of the
code so that health and safety will also be enforced.
* * *
Hon. Charles Caccia (Davenport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
The law of the sea convention is designed to protect the world's
fisheries and stop the pollution of oceans. Eighty-three states have
already ratified the law of the sea. In the throne speech the
government states its intent to follow suit.
Given the importance of this piece of international law, can the
minister indicate when Canada will ratify it?
(1500 )
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, as the hon. member clearly points out, it is a priority for
the government. We have established it as a major international
commitment.
At the same time, it is very important that we work toward a
ratification of the straddling stocks agreements by all countries
included so that the two can work hand in hand to not only provide
protection for the broader ocean itself but to ensure Canada
receives the kind of protection of its conservation of fish resources
that was established so effectively by the minister of fisheries last
year and continued by his successor this year.
_____________________________________________
2069
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[
English]
Mr. Paul Zed (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Pursuant to
Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in both official
languages, the government's responses to 12 petitions.
2070
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.) moved for leave to introduce Bill C-33, an act to
amend the Canadian Human Rights Act.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed.)
* * *
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36, I submit two petitions to the House
today.
The first petition comes from Peterborough, Ontario. The
petitioners draw to the attention of the House that managing the
family home and caring for preschool children is an honourable
profession which has not been recognized for its value to our
society.
The petitioners therefore pray and call on Parliament to pursue
initiatives to eliminate tax discrimination against families that
decide to provide care in the home for preschool children, the
disabled, the chronically ill or the aged.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
second petition comes from Sarnia, Ontario.
The petitioners draw to the attention of the House that
consumption of alcoholic beverages may cause health problems or
impair one's ability and specifically that fetal alcohol syndrome
and other alcohol related birth defects are 100 per cent preventable
by avoiding alcohol consumption during pregnancy.
The petitioners therefore pray and call on Parliament to enact
legislation to require health warning labels to be placed on the
containers of all alcoholic beverages to caution expectant mothers
and others of the risks associated with alcohol consumption.
Mr. Jim Jordan (Leeds-Grenville, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have
a petition from my constituents in places like Brockville, Prescott
and Spencerville. These people are asking the government not to
amend the Canadian Human Rights Act or the charter of rights and
freedoms by including in the prohibited grounds of discrimination
the undefined phrase sexual orientation.
(1505)
Mr. Paul Zed (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I ask
that all questions be allowed to stand.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
_____________________________________________
2070
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[
English]
The House resumed consideration of the motion.
Ms. Val Meredith (Surrey-White Rock-South Langley,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I begin speaking on the supply motion by
congratulating my colleague from Fraser Valley West for
introducing the victim's bill of rights. It is certainly a pleasure to
see something concrete happening in the House regarding victims'
rights.
Not all victims are the result of murder. Many victims we find in
Canadian society are people who have found themselves
victimized through assault, attacks or other offences. Sometimes
these victims go unnoticed and unheard.
What we are concerned about with this victims' bill of rights is
that there is a process and a procedure to make sure people who
find themselves victimized by offenders have some recourse, some
vehicle for having their story heard and their concerns addressed.
Not that I have ever wanted to but simply because of the position
I found myself in I have ended up speaking to over 20 parents of
murdered children. Their stories vary from occasion and from
location. For the most part what I hear from the parents of children
who have been murdered is they feel when they enter the court
system they are being revictimized. I also hear that from parents or
from assault victims who find themselves getting entangled in a
misunderstanding between the federal jurisdiction over creating the
law and the provincial jurisdiction over administering the law.
Caught in this conflict, these victims really feel they are being
victimized for a second or third time when they enter the court
process.
Two aspects of this victim's bill of rights try to deal with a
couple of problems that arise. One is section 4, which asks that
victims be informed in a timely fashion of the details of the
crown's intention to offer a plea bargain before it is presented to the
defence.
2071
That is a fair request. Anybody who has been victimized
whether from a sexual assault, assault or in the worst cases a
murder has a right to be part of the process. They have a right
to know when there is an intention to downgrade a charge.
A good number of the people who find themselves victimized go
to court anticipating or expecting a first degree murder conviction
for the criminal if that is what the criminal is charged with. They
come away feeling very distraught when that has been downgraded
either to second degree or to manslaughter.
When people go to court, having been victimized from a sexual
assault, and find out that charge can be downgraded through a plea
bargain to make sure the offender does get convicted, they may
downgrade the seriousness of the assault.
Oftentimes because the victims or the families of the victims do
not understand the process they feel cheated. If they were brought
into the process, if they were brought into the discussions on why
plea bargaining was being considered, why the need to look at
downgrading the charge to get a conviction, perhaps they would
feel less victimized the second or third time.
Another concern of mine is that victims should be looked after,
that there should be some vehicle in our system that when there are
people who are victimized through no fault of their own, there is
some compensation or some accounting that they, too, need to be
cared for.
The case that comes to mind is the case of a young 14-year old
girl who was kidnapped out of a schoolyard after school by an older
man and taken in his truck. The intent was considered when she
escaped partially dressed. The offender's truck got stuck in the
mud. While he was trying to deal with getting his truck unstuck she
was able to get out of the vehicle and escape partially dressed. His
intentions, therefore, were quite clear.
(1510)
The parents of that child realized that in order to heal completely
this child needed to have counselling. They went to various
agencies to see what kind of counselling she could receive. They
were told they had to make an application to victim's aid and that
perhaps the money for the counselling would be available in three
to four months.
Those parents realized that the counselling and healing had to
start immediately. This 14-year old girl could not wait three or four
months before dealing with what had happened to her. However,
they were not a family of wealth and it took everything they had to
find the financial resources to make sure that their daughter did not
suffer long term consequences from this event.
We then look at the offenders who have all of the counselling and
treatment provided for them, and the victims are left trying to deal
with their problems on their own. That concerns me.
Another part of this victims' bill of rights which has to be looked
at is the issue of the crown and the police notifying the victims why
charges were not laid if that is the decision of the crown or the
police.
One case more than any other brings that to my mind. Clifford
Olson on New Year's Day in 1981 picked up a 16-year old girl, Kim
Werbecky, and raped her repeatedly over a 12-hour period. She
eventually escaped and reported the crime to the police, who
arrested and charged Clifford Olson. However, the crown did not
proceed with charges because she was a prostitute. It felt she would
be viewed as a liar and a tramp and was not to be believed. Thus
Olson was released.
At the time of his release Olson had already murdered one child
and he would go on to murder another 10 children. It was not until
two years ago that Kim Werbecky finally found out why charges
did not proceed. She never had a chance to state her position or give
her side of the story.
It is extremely important that the crown and the police bring
victims into the discussions. I know one individual living in my
community who is very good about dealing with not only the
victims but the victim's family, of talking to them of what the
possibilities are, of where this case might go, of what would be
expected of them and of the pain, suffering and stress they would
feel.
He takes it upon himself to deal with the realities of victims
having to go through the legal system. He helps to reduce the
trauma for these victims by including them in discussions before
the trial and before the court case is heard. He includes them in plea
bargaining, what it is all about and where it will take them.
It is unfortunate that is left to the discretion of the crown. Not all
crowns are as good as this individual at bringing the victims into
the process. It should not be left to the individual. It should be the
rule and not the exception. Unfortunately we find that it is the
exception. Most crowns are busy, have large caseloads and literally
cannot be bothered to look at the whole aspect of victims when they
are going through the court system.
I do not think most Canadians realize the crown is there to
assume the responsibility of the victim. Society does not believe it
is only the victim who has been victimized but society as a whole.
Therefore the crown, on behalf of the individual, appears before the
courts to get some justice and restitution.
I do not think most Canadians realize the crown is really there on
their behalf. They need to be brought more into the system with the
crown so they appreciate and understand that they are working
together on this, that the crown is actually working on their behalf.
2072
(1515 )
Victims and their families must have a statutory right to be
informed about what is happening. It should not be left to the
discretion of the crown or to the discretion of the attorney general.
Ministers of justice and attorneys general change often. They are
not standard established positions. The individuals change with the
will of the people and sometimes reflect how the Criminal Code is
applied.
It is very important that victims rights be written into statute so
changes in government do not affect how they are dealt with.
I congratulate my colleague for his efforts on behalf of the
victims in society.
Mrs. Dianne Brushett (Cumberland-Colchester, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I congratulate the hon. member and her party, as did the
Minister of Justice today, for using their opposition day correctly
and positively toward the service of all Canadians with this
important topic of victims rights. In the red book we promised
Canada safer streets, safer communities, a better and fairer society.
The hon. members of the Reform Party spoke of two aspects of
victims rights. One aspect is to have tougher legislation. The other
aspect refers to counselling, the benefits criminals have through
legal aid, mental health services or what other institutions there
might be available. Reformers would make these services available
to the victim as well, including counselling, support services,
financial assistance if required, the opportunity to prepare impact
statements and so on.
How far would the hon. member take that suggestion in this
legislation? Who would pay for such services?
I am pleased to support the efforts they are putting forward
today.
Ms. Meredith: Mr. Speaker, there is an organization in our
government, the correctional investigator, which listens to the
complaints of convicted individuals in the penitentiaries. It hears
complaints about the kind of food they get, the kind of cells they
are in, whether they get to smoke.
I would suggest that is a very good start. Take the resources for
that agency and redefine it to provide services for victims. I do not
feel that people who have been charged, convicted and sentenced to
incarceration have any right to criticize or complain about the kind
of food or the kind of health care they get. They get 24-hour health
services which no other Canadian in the country gets, yet some of
them complain about it. They complain about the way they are
shuttled from cell to cell or where they are moved.
The resources that go into that agency, I believe it is a couple of
hundred thousand dollars a year, would provide a very good start to
funding the cause of victims rights.
Mr. Andy Mitchell (Parry Sound-Muskoka, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to debate the
motion on the issue of victims rights.
Although as a society we have an obligation to protect the rights
of the accused and the rights of the convicted, we also need to
establish and safeguard the rights of all victims and their families.
If an occasion should arise where the rights of the victim and the
rights of the perpetrator are in conflict, the resolution of that
conflict should be very easy: it should be in favour of the victim. I
sincerely believe this can be done without compromising our fine
tradition of rights and freedoms.
The call for better victims rights is not a new one. In 1981 a
federal-provincial task force was struck to examine the role of
victims in the criminal justice system. The task force reported in
1983 with suggestions to provide information to victims, develop
victims rights, develop victim services, introduce victim impact
statements and compensate losses where appropriate. I agree with
all of these proposals. However, I do not agree with its conclusion
that many proposed victims rights ``were not appropriate to be
included in the criminal law''. Since that time some progress has
been made.
(1520)
In 1988, Bill C-89 amended the Criminal Code to allow courts to
consider victim impact statements during sentencing. Recent
amendments which will soon come into force will require courts to
consider any properly prepared impact statement. Similar changes
have been made to the Young Offenders Act and to the Corrections
and Conditional Release Act.
Provisions have been placed in the Criminal Code regarding
restitution. In section 727.9 of the Criminal Code a victim fine
surcharge has been introduced, not to exceed 15 per cent of any fine
levied. Unfortunately, proceeds go to the crown and not directly to
the victim. Under section 725 of the Criminal Code a court can
order compensation to a victim. However, application must be
made by the victim who would need to seek a civil judgment to
enforce the order and the accused would not pay the amount
ordered.
It is progress, but it is not enough. It is not sufficient for the
federal government to point to the provinces and suggest that the
administration of justice is a provincial matter. It is not good
enough that changes on these matters are done haphazardly and at a
snail's pace. It is certainly not good enough to suggest further
patience by those whose lives have been shattered as victims of
crime.
The federal government has a clear responsibility to set the
protection of victims as a national priority. I believe this motion
can achieve that objective.
We can accomplish our objectives by including the rights of
victims in a preamble to the Criminal Code. On matters which
2073
traditionally fall within the scope of the provinces, this preamble
should state that the administration of the law, as established in the
Criminal Code, specifies the rights of victims.
There are five principles which should be included in a statement
of victims rights. First, victims should be kept informed of the
criminal investigations, court proceedings and parole applications
being undertaken in respect of criminal action perpetrated against
them or their families. These people need to know the process.
They need to be informed of what is going on. Victims of crime are
not an impediment to court proceedings, the lawyers and others
who administer the law. They are the reason for it and should
benefit from it.
Second, victims should be financially compensated for personal
injury or financial and all other forms of loss which result from
criminal actions against them or their families. They should not
have to make a separate application to the court, nor be required to
obtain a civil enforcement order. The thought that a victim must in
essence sue an individual convicted of a crime against them to
obtain restitution is beyond comprehension.
Third, an individual convicted of committing a property crime
should have a portion of their fine or labour in prison go to
providing restitution to the victim. Innocent bystanders should not
have to absorb the cost of another's deviant behaviour.
Fourth, victims should have the unconditional right to have their
impact statements heard by the courts and parole boards. The rules
and processes surrounding this procedure should be simple and
should facilitate, not impede such action.
Fifth, the statement of principle should call for the
administration of justice under the Criminal Code by the provinces
in a manner which obliges them to inform victims of the services
available to them, including possible legal recourse.
The intent of the motion before us is to further protect the rights
of victims who are all too often forgotten by the justice system,
which is why I will support the motion today. I will carefully watch
the progress of the minister and the committee. I hope they find
merit in my suggestion to include the bill of rights in a preamble to
the Criminal Code.
I am not a lawyer, a judge or a learned legal scholar. I do not
know the intricacies of the law. But I am a father, a husband and a
concerned citizen. As parliamentarians we have an obligation to
continue the progress of the last few years, to set a national
standard and an example to protect and assist all victims of crime.
(1525)
Mr. Randy White (Fraser Valley West, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is
encouraging to hear members opposite support this kind of
endeavour. I have always said that to get a national victims bill of
rights it must transcend party lines. Individual members of
Parliament must support the initiative.
I have several questions. The first is related to the legal industry
in Canada. I have quote upon quote of what the legal industry, in
particular lawyers and judges, thinks of victims in this country. I
will cite a couple of examples.
Recently in the Bedford provincial court in Nova Scotia Judge
Patrick Curran stated: ``I am not entirely happy with them''. He
was referring to victim impact statements. ``For the most part I do
not think they make an awful lot of difference''. That is the
indifference I find in the legal system.
This morning I quoted Russ Chamberlain which I will do again
for my colleague opposite. Mr. Chamberlain is a criminal defence
lawyer in Vancouver who said that crime victims want an eye for an
eye, that they want someone else to fix their ``petty problems'', and
that their pitch for personal vengeance can ``improperly'' affect a
jury's verdict. He said: ``Victim impact statements are just venting
the spleen and do not serve justice and should be outlawed, banned
completely''.
We could go through a litany of quotes from lawyers and judges
in this country on victims who seem to be secondary in the process.
They seem to be a royal pain to most of these people.
Would the member comment on how the House could pass a
national victims bill of rights when much of the problem lies with
the legal industry whose members are intent on going their own
way without the legislators, without the input from victims and
certainly without the guidance from the national House of
Commons.
Mr. Mitchell: Mr. Speaker, I would agree with the hon. member
for Fraser Valley West which may be a first and perhaps a last. I do
not agree with the opinions of the legal people he quoted.
Many of the lawyers and judges I have talked to who operate in
my riding of Parry Sound-Muskoka share the feelings I have just
expressed about the concern toward victims and their rights.
The member asked how we should go about this. The House of
Commons has to set the national standard. My suggestion is that it
be placed in the preamble of the Criminal Code. However, I suspect
the justice committee will look at many options. The preamble
should clearly state the national will. That is what this Parliament
is all about, stating the national will through its elected
representatives.
The preamble should state that we believe the rights of victims
are important, that they are of primary concern to us as a country,
that they are of primary concern to us as parliamentarians. We want
to ensure that when people look to the Criminal Code for guidance,
they will find the rights of victims in the code.
2074
Mr. Gordon Kirkby (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister
of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I appreciate the opportunity to address this motion on victims
rights.
We have heard the expression of support for the motion which
has been put forward by the Minister of Justice. It is his personal
intention to support the motion. Other members of the House will
no doubt do likewise. It is the stated position of the minister to
bring forward in a meeting of the federal and provincial ministers a
proposal for the reaffirmation of the principles either as have been
previously enunciated or as can be improved upon by the
suggestions made by a number of the members of the House.
(1530)
The original principles governing the principles of justice for
victims of crime were originally set forward in 1988. They were as
follows.
Victims should be treated with courtesy, compassion and with
respect for their dignity and privacy and should suffer the
minimum of necessary inconvenience from their involvement with
the criminal justice system.
Victims should receive through formal and informal procedures
prompt and fair redress for the harm which they have suffered.
Information regarding the remedies and mechanisms to obtain
them should be made available to the victims. Information should
be made available to the victims about their participation in
criminal proceedings and the scheduling, progress and ultimate
disposition of the proceedings.
Where appropriate the views and concerns of victims should be
ascertained and assistance provided throughout the criminal
process. Where the personal interests of the victim are affected, the
views or concerns of the victim should be brought to the attention
of the court where appropriate and consistent with criminal law and
procedure.
Measures should also be taken when necessary to ensure the
safety of victims and their families and protect them from
intimidation and retaliation. Enhanced training should be made
available to sensitize criminal justice personnel to the needs and
concerns of victims and guidelines developed where appropriate
for this purpose.
Victims should be informed of the availability of health and
social services and other relevant assistance so that they might
continue to receive the necessary medical, psychological and social
assistance through existing programs and services.
Victims should report the crime and co-operate with law
enforcement authorities.
These are the principles that were agreed upon by the federal and
provincial ministers responsible for criminal justice.
Since 1988 and in an effort to bring these principles into reality,
the federal government has enacted a number of pieces of
legislation to enhance the role of the victims within the criminal
procedure of the land and throughout the process so that they will
indeed not be victimized twice but rather will feel as much as
possible a part of the process.
In addition to federal action, provincial governments across the
land which have the constitutional authority for the administration
of justice and the constitutional duty to administer justice have
introduced in a number of cases provincial statutes dealing
specifically with victims of crime and how they are dealt with
throughout the process of the administration of justice. In addition
to that, a number of programs have been put forward by provincial
governments across this land in conjunction with communities to
better enhance and protect victims throughout the criminal justice
procedure.
In my own community of Prince Albert, funding from the
provincial level is made available to the community. The
community working in conjunction with the police and the justice
system has developed a program to better assist victims of crime
through the court procedure and subsequent to it.
All across the country steps like this are being taken. More
public awareness is being focused on the needs of the victims by
victims groups and communities. Certainly this field is evolving.
We all want to do our part at the federal level, at the provincial
level, at the municipal level, at the community level and at the
individual level to assist this evolution. In these times of very tight
resources for all levels of government while it is difficult to do
immediately all we would like to do, the process which is in place
to enhance the role of victims, to protect victims of crime and to
ensure their healing as much as possible in a timely fashion will
continue.
(1535)
In addition to assisting victims of crime, perhaps some of the
best ways to ensure a reduction in victimization is with the
co-operation of all levels of government to look more seriously at
the prevention of crime.
First would be looking at and eradicating the social conditions
which lead to crime. More and more people and communities are
turning to early intervention in the lives of young people to work
with them before they end up in conflict with the law and start
down the path to a life of crime. This is a very productive form of
prevention which in the long run will reduce the number of victims
within our society.
In addition, it is important to introduce and pass appropriate
pieces of criminal justice legislation which will make it very clear
to the population what types of behaviour are not to be tolerated.
The types of behaviour which are not to be tolerated must be given
appropriate negative sanctions so that crime can be deterred.
2075
But sadly, crimes are committed. We need to deal with victims
of crime to ensure their involvement with the justice system, while
it can never be painless or easy, is made as easy as possible in
some sense. The government has enacted a number of very
specific provisions which deal with victims of crime and their
involvement with the justice system.
For instance, amendments have been put forward to section 745
of the Criminal Code. When there is a section 745 application,
victim impact statements will be considered. This is a positive step
in the right direction. Both the Criminal Code and the Young
Offenders Act now require that victim impact statements where
available be heard by the courts. This is yet another positive
development. In some cases it is appropriate to have the identity of
victims of crime protected throughout a criminal proceeding.
Those amendments have been brought forward.
Power has been given to police for instance in the gun control
legislation, under appropriate circumstances to remove firearms
from the house of an individual who has shown violent behaviour
or who has threatened individuals. Thus, the likelihood of harm
from firearms would be reduced. This also assists the victims of
crime.
The department is also reviewing a number of other areas in
which to assist victims of crime such as when the therapeutic
records of victims of crime would be released to the courts.
All of these areas have been looked at, introduced or are under
active review by the department. It is important that we cannot pick
and choose remedies we want to bring forward to assist victims of
crime. We need to support provisions such as gun control which
victims groups across the country want and applaud.
Although it may be tough, we cannot back away from assisting
the victims of crime. Whether it is introducing the appropriate
criminal justice statutes, whether it is establishing the proper
prevention programs or whether it is establishing a victims bill of
rights which would more clearly delineate how victims are dealt
with in the justice system, all these issues need to be dealt with.
(1540 )
Certainly the minister will be supporting this motion. It is
imperative that all levels work together, the federal and provincial
governments, and the communities through whatever means,
volunteerism, et cetera to each do our part to assist victims of
crime. I thank the hon. member for putting forward the motion.
Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the reality in this country is very different from what the
Liberal Party has been putting forth. The reality is that violent
crime, particularly among youth, is increasing faster than any other
aspect of crime.
The Liberals promised to deal with the Young Offenders Act in a
substantive and effective fashion before it became the government.
Have we seen anything? Absolutely not. We have seen pabulum
come through the justice department when it comes to dealing with
young offenders.
I ask my hon. friend from the Liberal government to name some
substantive and effective legislation the government has put forth
to decrease youth and violent crime. If this is being put forth, I
would like him to explain to the House why it has not decreased
violent crime one iota.
Mr. Kirkby: Mr. Speaker, contrary to the statements put
forward by the hon. member that nothing has been done by the
government with respect to the Young Offenders Act, I can assure
the House and the people of Canada this government has taken
steps to deal with the most serious of young offenders crimes.
First of all, for the most serious crimes, the penalties under the
Young Offenders Act have been toughened. There is no doubt about
that. It has happened.
With respect to whether or not 16 or 17 year olds will appear in
adult court, the onus that used to be in place has been reversed.
Now the situation is that young offenders 16 and 17 years of age
will be in adult court unless they can prove they should be tried in
youth court. The situation used to be the opposite. The presumption
had been that 16 and 17 year olds would be tried in youth court.
In addition to that, a review of the Young Offenders Act by the
justice and legal affairs committee continues. Hon. members of the
Reform Party are involved in that. The committee will be visiting
five regions of the country. Last week the committee completed the
first leg of its journey when it visited the maritimes to hear what
people thought about the Young Offenders Act with a view to
making further changes.
This government is committed to hearing input from people
across the country which is not the style of the members opposite.
They like to do things and forget about what the people think. This
government likes to listen to the people and the justice and legal
affairs committee will be doing that over the next little while. It
will be recommending further changes to the Young Offenders Act
for consideration by the justice minister. In addition, the
federal-provincial task force on young offenders, the officials and
ministers, will also be making recommendations to the federal
minister.
A number of very succinct and proper measures have been taken
by this government. Every single time we bring forward something
to assist the victims, whether it is Bill C-41, whether it is changes
to section 745 or whether it is changes to the Young Offenders Act,
the Reform Party votes against it.
2076
(1545 )
Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster-Burnaby, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, it is a privilege to speak on the motion concerning
victims' rights tendered by the member for Fraser Valley West. I
urge the Minister of Justice to create a national standard for victims
of crime.
We are calling for a fundamental change in the operation of the
Criminal Code. It is a natural evolution of the movement for justice
system accountability and a re-examination of the primary
operational goals of the criminal justice system in Canada. Victims
have a right to be informed of their rights at every stage of the
justice process, including those rights involving compensation
from the offender. They must also be made aware of any victim
services available.
On February 29 of this year, my colleague organized a victims'
rights rally in Abbotsford, British Columbia. As I surveyed the
faces in the crowd, I felt a visceral response from them, an urgent
dissatisfaction with Canada's institutional response to crime and
how we as society handle offenders in comparison with those
innocents who are left in the offender's wake. It is clear to me that
the way the criminal justice operations work does not represent
mainstream Canadian values.
Constituents of mine from New Westminster-Burnaby have
written to the Minister of Justice. They have submitted petitions
which I have dutifully presented to the government in the House.
Sadly, the Prime Minister and the Minister of Justice do not seem
to feel the same deep sense of wrong and urgency, to make the
order of fundamental change that is required to assuage the
community and respond to Canada's sense of what is right.
What is required is a basic rebuilding of the justice system from
its fundamental pillars. Central to that change must be that the
system must no longer be so offender focused. That is the old
agenda of the system defenders, the Liberals and Conservatives
who gave us the justice system we have today. The community is
demanding that system changers come forward who have an
openness to rethink and remake our response to crime.
This past while I have had the privilege of introducing several
private member's bills in the House. They arise from my
longstanding sensitivity to victims' issues. The message of victims
has not been self-centred or full of retribution or revenge. Their
concern is a search for meaning of their circumstance and a hope
that changes will arise to prevent others from needlessly going
through what they have experienced, that mostly came from the
justice system itself, while they were in the midst of their pain and
loss.
As a former officer of the court, I have heard many stories from
victims. I have observed firsthand how the labyrinthine system
operates and how the disconnected parts work in their
compartments without a unifying mission or a mandate.
I made a promise to my constituents that I would try, among
other things, to make a difference in the way victims of crime are
treated, the way they are regarded and how they are positioned in
law. It is time to move beyond community volunteer programs, as
important as they may be, and write into the law the position of the
victim from the beginning to the end.
On March 27 of this year I introduced private member's Bill
C-247. I had received complaints that some persons were causing
public disturbances and destroying an important part of community
living, the places enjoyed by families. The victims in this case are
the local communities across the country, especially for the
liveability for young children. What is frustrating is that those
causing the public disturbance, causing mothers to hang on to their
children tightly as they pass them by and having merchants
experience the social life of commerce turned into a danger zone,
that these perpetrators are not controlled.
We are well aware that our local shopping malls, community
centres, sports arenas and libraries are popular hangouts for youths
who want to be rather negative. In particular, the most popular spot
to hang out in a mall is in the food court where the action is of
people traffic.
If the problem ensues and the mall security guard is forced to
remove a person, a little known fact is that the person being
removed is permitted by law to re-enter immediately, provided
there is no resistance in the removal and no charge develops. There
is nothing that the security guard can do but to continue to ask the
person to leave.
Why do we have such a loophole in the Criminal Code? It is
because the community as victim in this situation is not regarded as
highly as the nuisance-maker and show off, the destroyer of
community peace and order.
The property owner is being victimized because the Criminal
Code is full of holes, the same holes that the Minister of Justice
says do not exist.
(1550 )
In my riding, the New Westminster police have a storefront
office in the Westminster Mall as part of their community policing
program. Members of the force have told me that their hands are
tied in such a situation. They cannot do a thing unless the Criminal
Code is changed.
Every town in this country daily struggles with public order and
millions are spent for security guards and monitoring systems
2077
because the local community, as a victim, is not important to the
government. My small bill on this matter will solve the problem
for communities in that situation.
When Reform members bring forward private members' bills
they are serious attempts, not media stunts. We want to make
Canada a safer place in which to live. We want people to have the
ability to walk the streets in safety. We want Canadians to know
that their rights are being respected. Most importantly, we want to
ensure that victims of crime do not become pushed to the sidelines
and receive little help while the perpetrator receives most of the
resources of government help.
In the previous session of this Parliament, I introduced Bill
C-323, an act to amend the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act (order
of discharge). The way the act currently stands, an offender can be
released from having to pay any damages arising from assault,
awarded in a civil lawsuit, if the offender claims bankruptcy.
When my Bill C-323 was before the House for second reading
debate on December 8, 1996, government members were very
supportive of my amendments to the Bankruptcy and Insolvency
Act and indicated so in their speeches.
The member for Lambtom-Middlesex stated: ``This is an
excellent amendment. I commend the hon. member for New
Westminster-Burnaby for it. I would like to see the same
principle applied to all categories listed in section 178, not just the
assault cases''.
The member for Nickel Belt stated: ``This legislation is a clear
example of a good idea whose time has come. We all know that the
hon. member for New Westminster-Burnaby has hit upon an
excellent idea and a worthy amendment and we all want to see it
incorporated in the law as soon as possible''.
Finally, the member for Durham stated: ``The bill presented by
the member is a good one and deserves the support of the House. I
would be happy to support the member in that initiative''.
The words of these members are encouraging and I hope I will be
able to count on their votes when my amendment is raised in the
industry committee.
Today's motion is to implement a victims' bill of rights. That is
really no different in principle from moving an amendment to the
bankruptcy act. Both would assist victims and both would make
Canada a safer place to live.
If Liberal members chose to vote against today's motion or work
to dilute it, they will be telling their constituents that victims'
rights are not paramount. For I assert that the notion of equal
balance between victim and offender is a mistaken one and is not
supported by Canadians.
A victims' bill of rights is a good way to begin the process of the
hundreds of adjustments to the system that need to be made at all
levels of government so there develops a unifying theme around
which the justice system can operate. Peace and community order,
protecting it and restoring it on behalf of victims can be a unifying
theme.
Those who are in conflict with society and affected by sanctions
of the Criminal Code can be offered paths to community
restoration by fulfilling the obligations of punishment in all its
complexity.
I recommend a thoughtful reflection of the deeper philosophical
implications of what is being brought to the House by this motion.
Let there be light. Let there be some insight. The light shines in the
darkness and darkness comprehends it not. May light overcome the
darkness and may we become more positive system changers
instead of remaining mere system defenders.
Canadians deserve better than our current justice system and
today's motion is the place to start.
Mr. Gordon Kirkby (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
thank the hon. member for putting his points forward.
As is currently the case, a number of provinces have put forward
victims' rights legislation and have through the use of various
mechanisms raised money for the provision of services to victims
within provincial jurisdictions. They have utilized the victims of
crime surcharge which can be placed on fines which are collected
for Criminal Code offences and have raised money in that respect.
They have put in place services for victims.
I believe there is room for the federal government to work with
the provinces in this regard.
(1555 )
I am curious why Reform Party members, who are usually so
``let the provinces do everything and the federal government do
nothing'' are suggesting that the federal government do everything.
What would they do with the work that is already done by the
provinces? Have they consulted with the provinces on what action
the federal government would take? Have they agreement among
the provinces on what action the federal government should take so
that it is not imposing costs on them?
In addition, how would the Reform Party handle the costs to the
system that could be imposed?
Mr. Forseth: Mr. Speaker, it is a matter of cost, it is a matter of
priority and a social philosophy of what you see as particularly
important.
We are looking beyond the volunteer status of victims' services.
I have three victims' services programs running in my riding. One
operates out of the RCMP detachment with a retired staff sergeant
in charge. He has about 40 volunteers on his list.
2078
In New Westminster a volunteer victim services program is
attached to the police. One also operates out of the crown
counsel's office. They get some grant money from time to time
but basically they are run on a volunteer basis at the discretion
of a justice system that goes from the top to the bottom.
We are talking about moving beyond that. It is something like
the movement we had years ago when the Mothers of Drunk
Drivers program became popular and reported in the news media.
Those mothers began to sit in the back of courtrooms on a
volunteer basis to provide pressure. Eventually the justice system
ever so slowly responded and it is a different situation that we have
now than 25 years ago.
What we are suggesting is that it is time to move beyond
volunteer services, perhaps even look at the Constitution. Victims
need status in the law and in the overall operation of the justice
system. We say that as far as the responsibility of the federal
government is concerned, build the law and the victims' services
will come.
Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, it is a privilege to speak on the victims' bill of rights
motion that my hon. colleague is putting forward. It is long
overdue.
This all started back in 1983-84 when the Liberal justice minister
of the day said that Canadian justice was going to move away from
making the victim its primary responsibility and move toward the
convicted as their primary responsibility.
This has had a fundamental effect on the mindset of the justice
system over the last 13 years. As a result Reform members have
had to put forward legislation along the lines of that which my
colleague is putting forward, a victims' bill of right. Why? Because
the victims of this country have had their rights abrogated by a
judicial system whose interest should be to protect them first and
foremost. That is no longer the case. Countless numbers of victims
have had their rights subjugated to the rights of the convicted.
Here are some pathetic examples. Imagine if you will you are
person who has been raped. You have no rights whatsoever under
the current justice system to know the health status of the person
who raped you. You have no rights to know if he is HIV positive.
You have no rights to know if he is carrying sexually transmitted
diseases like gonorrhoea, chlamydia and hepatitis. Those rights do
not exist. This is one of the things that my colleague and we in the
Reform Party wish to change.
Imagine if you will that your child has been violated by a
pedophile or that a loved one of yours has been raped. Currently
that rapist or pedophile can come an live right next door to you if he
so chooses. That can happen. Do the victims have a right to know
about this? No, they do not.
In my riding I have had a situation where a serial pedophile who
raped and violated little children more than 1,000 times came to
live in the neighbourhood of its victims. These victims were
absolutely beside themselves with fear and abject terror.
(1600)
Why do we not have a justice system which protects these
individuals from having to endure a situation of terror and fear
after they have already been violated by an individual? That is
fundamentally wrong and bespeaks poorly of a justice system that
is meant to protect these individuals.
It is fundamental that these victims have the right to know where
and when the people who perpetrated these violations on them will
be and where they will live and their whereabouts. As we all know,
there is no treatment for violent sexual predators. There are many
attempts but there is no effective treatment. Therefore victims have
a right to know where these individuals are.
The third is victims' impact statements. It must be the right of
the victim to give a victim impact statement orally or in writing if
they so choose. It is not a choice but it should be their right to have
this. The courts must understand what it was like for that person to
endure the crime perpetrated on them.
Fifth, the victim must understand what is happening in the court
proceedings. They must understand what is being plea bargained
away, why it is being plea bargained away, and what deals are being
made between the crown and the accused's defence. It is very
important for the peace of mind of the victims that they understand
the whole process taking place if they are to feel justice is being
done.
Sixth, it is very important that we err on the side of the
protection of the individual in society at large. We have to move
away from what we have said before, that the convicted will have
our primary focus. The victim must be the primary responsibility
of the justice system. That is simply not the case now.
I will give a true life example. There was a young boy in my
riding. He was a handicapped child who could not mobilize very
well. He was 13 years old. He was sexually assaulted by an 18-year
old boy. He was raped. The court case took place. The 18-year old
was charged and convicted. The convicted 18-year old turn around
and said ``I'm a victim because of things that happened in my
past''. That may be so.
What happened was that the child who was raped did not have
anywhere near the counselling, the care and the attention from our
justice system and health professionals he needed. The convicted
had many times the amount of money in support than the victim.
The convicted had the primary focus of the justice system whereas
the victim was forgotten. This bespeaks of a justice system that
2079
does not fulfil its fundamental role, which is the protection of
society and its members.
It is true that many people who commit offences, who are
incarcerated in our prisons have had very serious and very sad
lives. Their early childhood development has been riddled with
with a great number of tragic and unbelievably terrible things. This
is very common. However, one's history does not exonerate one
from committing criminal acts today. We can understand what they
have done but it does not exonerate them or excuse them from
committing those acts.
Therefore we have to take a multilevel approach. We have to
protect the victim, as my hon. colleague mentioned so eloquently
in his speeches and in his victim's impact statement, which I
encourage every member of the House to get a copy of before they
vote on it. I also encourage every member to look at new ways we
can address the precursors and ask ourselves why these individuals
commit these offences.
(1605)
Many of these individuals have grown up in terrible family
situations. We must deal with these situations early on. Children in
environments where they are being beaten up and sexually abused
are not being given the necessities to build up the basic pillars of a
normal psyche. Where those things are absent we must collectively
deal with the families to help the children. If the children do not
have the pillars of a normal psyche they will grow up to be adults
without the pillars of a normal psyche. That will manifest itself in
conduct disorders in adolescence and in criminal behaviour in
adulthood.
These things can be done without spending money. In the United
States some interesting experiments have been conducted. They
have looked at inner city school boards where there is a high degree
of violence, drop out rates, teen pregnancy and criminal behaviour.
They brought the children into the schools very early on, at the age
of five or six. Not only did they teach the children their A, B, Cs,
they taught the children what appropriate conflict resolution was
and what drugs were all about. They learned about self-respect and
having respect for others. These are normal pillars of a normal
psyche which we all require to function in a caring and functional
society.
These are things which the justice system ought to take a look at
in conjunction with provincial counterparts, as the Liberal member
mentioned. We must work with provincial governments and
education departments, which are an integral factor, in addressing
these problems to put an end to conduct disorders and violent and
criminal behaviour.
It is incumbent on all of us as legislators to put first and foremost
the rights of innocent victims in our justice system. The convicted
must be taken care of as well, but our primary responsibility is to
the victims who through no fault of their own have been violated.
I encourage every member of the House to vote for the victims'
bill of rights presented by the hon. member for Fraser Valley West.
They will be doing it for themselves, their children and, most
important, for Canadians from coast to coast.
Mr. Gordon Kirkby (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
point out to the hon. member that the government has taken a
significant number of steps in the review of criminal legislation to
improve the safety of our homes and streets.
Certainly it is within the discretion of local chiefs of police to
indicate to the appropriate people, when considering all the
circumstances at their disposal, to release in varying degrees into
the community information about the presence of sexual offenders.
The government has made changes to the Corrections and
Conditional Release Act to make it easier to keep individuals in
custody to the end of their sentence.
The government has also introduced gun control legislation
which allows police in appropriate circumstances to remove
firearms from a house where there is a threat of use by the
perpetrator of a crime or by someone who has made threats.
The minister has indicated that new legislation is on the way to
deal with dangerous long term offenders. There is a possible review
of the dangerous offender provisions to allow greater latitude or a
greater length of time under which a dangerous offender
application can be made.
There has been the institution of peace bonds to ensure greater
protection for victims of crime.
(1610)
There is the possible introduction of long term offender
designation which would allow community supervision for up to 10
years after release. This is in addition to a number of other steps
which have increased the tools of law enforcement agencies,
provincial attorneys general to detect and prosecute crime.
We would like to see the hon. member acknowledging the
progress by the government, while everyone in the House
acknowledges there is still more work to do.
Mr. Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca): Mr. Speaker, I thank
my hon. colleague for the question.
On gun control, regardless of whichever way we look at this,
there will be up to $500 million removed from the functional
arm of justice to gun control. There is something called an
economic cost. That means that if we are moving money from A
to B, we had better make sure we are getting more bang for our
buck in B than in A.
2080
There has been nothing to prove that the new legislation put
forth will make any difference in crime. There is an abundance
of studies showing the exact opposite, that the new changes in gun
control will not work.
We in the Reform Party are committed to having good solid gun
control legislation which protects individuals and society but we
are loathe to support legislation that will make our streets less safe.
The gun control legislation put forth by the government had
nothing to do with keeping the streets safer but everything to do
with seducing an urban population.
On the concept of the police, the police would do a lot more if
they were supported by the courts, but they are not. If my hon.
colleague would talk to the men and women in our police forces
who day in and day out put their lives on the line and ask them
whether the courts support them, he will get a very different picture
because they do not.
They do not because of the decisions made in the past and a legal
morass our judicial system is now under. It is weighted down by a
legal morass that prevents justice from taking place. We need to
rethink and look at that.
We also have to look at the way police officers are hampered by
the legal documentation and paperwork they have to endure in their
jobs. It impedes their ability to get their work done.
On the concept of restitution, restitution is not mentioned
anywhere. The government has not done anything to deal with
restitution to the victims from the criminals.
An important point for many individuals who have had to put
restraining orders on individuals who have been hunting them,
harassing them, is that restraining orders do not work. They are not
enforced properly and we need to take a long, hard look at ensuring
our restraining order system will work to protect those individuals
being harassed and victimized.
Mrs. Beryl Gaffney (Nepean, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am very
pleased to speak to the opposition motion put forward by the
member for Fraser Valley West, the victims' bill of rights.
Crime and victimization are complex and challenging social
problems. The government believes dealing with these issues
requires a thoughtful, informed and long term approach, one that
deals with the early causes of crime.
A two-month old baby is left to cry when he needs comfort so
that he will not be spoiled. A three-year old girl hears her dad abuse
her mom one more time. A pregnant woman has another drink.
What do these situations have to do with crime prevention and
community safety? As isolated incidents maybe not a lot, but when
they represent patterns for these children, the outcome may have an
impact on crime and victimization.
Under the safe homes, safe streets initiative, the government
formed the Canadian National Crime Prevention Council, an
independent council of 25 volunteers from across the country. Its
main focus is on the needs of children and youth and its
commitment is to crime prevention through social development.
(1615)
Thanks to the council's work we are discovering some of the
links, links between what happens to children from the prenatal
stage to six years old and what becomes of them as adolescents and
later as adults in our communities. The child victim often becomes
the criminal offender. The reasons for this are varied and complex.
We know quite a bit about the childhood experiences of
persistent offenders. We want to apply this knowledge to help
children and families when they need it most. Poverty can bring
with it a host of threats to children, including poor health, high
family stress and difficulty forming warm, secure attachments to
caregivers.
Risks to a fetus, including fetal alcohol syndrome and low birth
weight, may affect a baby's brain development which can lead to
hyperactivity, emotional problems and then to school failure, a risk
factor in itself of delinquent behaviour. When parents do not get
along and are unresponsive or overly authoritarian, children are
also at risk. Socially competent children need emotionally
available parents.
The community and the broader society in which our children
grow can make a tremendous difference, not only in terms of
financial support but also by encouraging resilience in high risk
children. Resilient children who succeed despite having the odds
stacked against them share certain traits. Many of these protective
traits result from family and social influences.
Optimism for example has its roots in infancy, in a child being
able to count on life feeling good. Competence, another such trait,
depends on the support, encouragement and opportunities provided
by interested adults. If a parent cannot provide the support, then
another relative, a family friend or member of the community can
step in and fill the gap.
Although much of this knowledge may seem like common sense,
it must not be ignored when we develop policies and programs in
response to crime and victimization. The lessons of early
prevention are often pushed aside in the rush for harsher penalties
for young offenders. There is even a demand by some for more of
those charged with non-violent crimes to be imprisoned. This
response may reflect our empathy for victims but it does not get at
the underlying factors which lead to crime.
2081
What do parents, families and communities need to nurture
children in loving, supportive environments? If a child or teen
breaks the law, what is the best way to intervene, to repair the
harm done to the victim and to prevent a second crime? A victims
bill of rights would not protect a child from abuse, provide him
with a hot breakfast or a sympathetic ear. The way to prevent
Canadians from becoming victims in the first place is to nurture,
value and protect our children. For it is the neglected, abused and
mistreated child who is most likely to find himself or herself
involved in criminal activity later in life, a pattern that can be
broken before it is too late.
The National Crime Prevention Council has been working in this
vein on a prevention guide book for Canadians. The guide book
will explain how crime and victimization can be traced back to
childhood and how we can prevent crime from happening in the
first place. I am sure that members of the House join me in looking
forward to the launch of the guide book at the June Atlantic crime
prevention conference in P.E.I. Early prevention is the key.
I am pleased to advise the House and the member for Fraser
Valley West that I will support this motion. It is a step in the right
direction. However, we must focus on the formative years of our
children to ensure they do not reach a state where they are heavily
involved in crime.
(1620)
[Translation]
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, we have
before us an opposition motion from the third party, which reads as
follows:
That the House urge the government to direct the Standing Committee on
Justice and Legal Affairs to proceed with the drafting of a victims' bill of rights,
and that, in such areas where the committee determines a right to be more
properly a provincial concern-and I emphasize this part of the motion-the
Minister of Justice initiate consultations with the provinces aimed at arriving at
a national standard-and I also emphasize this expression-for a victims' bill of
rights.
Victims have rights, victims have needs. If I may, I will use an
illustration from testimony I heard before the standing committee
on justice from a person who had lost a loved one when a crime was
committed. This person did not tell us about loss of income, but
rather about her emotional loss. She did not tell us about the
criminal aspects involved, but rather about needing the government
to offer her support during this difficult time.
This person was the indirect victim of a crime. I am telling this
story to emphasize that the victims of crime are not the only direct
victims. Sometimes people around the victim also suffer the
consequences. The contribution the government can make to these
direct or indirect victims is not just legal or financial, but also
moral, supportive in nature.
How many times do we see victims or their relatives hounded by
the media? What recourse, what protection do these people in their
state of shock have to help them hang on to the privacy they need at
a difficult time?
These are important questions. Victims and those close to them
have rights because they have needs. Now, to meet these needs, to
guard these rights, the question is: Who is best placed to do the job?
Naturally, the Bloc Quebecois is in favour of protecting and
compensating victims of crime; this is a given. And in Quebec, for
a number of years now, we have had legislation that provides this
protection and compensation for victims of crime. As I have just
told you, in Quebec, the Government of Quebec has legislated this
protection, this compensation. Why? Because it is a provincial
responsibility.
Because this is a provincial area of responsibility, the federal
government therefore has no business interfering. Let us be very
clear, then: the Bloc Quebecois is strongly in favour of the
protection and compensation of victims, but by the appropriate
level of government; and, in this case, it is the provinces. Quebec
has been active for a number of years in this area of jurisdiction.
(1625)
To put it more plainly, the jurisdiction proposed in the motion is
not a matter for the federal government through the criminal law,
that is section 91 (27), but, rather, concerns property and civil
rights in the province, or section 92 (13). Therefore, national
standards in this area would constitute flagrant interference in the
provinces' exclusive areas of jurisdiction.
You will tell me that that would not be the first time. I am afraid
not. In how many areas has the federal government, through its
spending authority, interfered? If we look strictly at spending
authority, the federal government could begin compensating
victims left, right, and centre, first thing tomorrow. In one sense,
these people would probably not be upset, but as I pointed out,
what is important for victims or those close to them, is less the
money than the comfort and moral support.
This person, who went through this unfortunate experience and
described it to the justice committee added, and this is important,
that a public servant had actually telephoned her the day after
reading the newspapers to tell her that the pension cheque of her
now dead loved one was already in the mail and that she should
take steps to return it. The next day, twenty four hours later.
What victims or those close to them need is not necessarily
financial compensation, but understanding, moral support, respect
for human dignity, and these are things that the provinces are well
equipped to provide. The provinces have all that is needed to do the
social work required to ensure the respect of human dignity. I
2082
repeat then, national standards in this area would constitute a
flagrant infringement on areas of exclusive provincial jurisdiction.
This is not just my own opinion I am stating; on two occasions
already the Privy Council-which, as you know, was the level of
last recourse at the time, until its abolition in 1949-acknowledged
provincial jurisdiction over victim compensation. This is the legal
precedent, formed in the past, and formed solidly. It is something
already in place, something that ought not to be opened to
re-examination and challenge at this time.
In 1920, in its decision on Canadian Pacific v. the British
Columbia Workers Compensation Board, the Privy Council
acknowledged that, when victims are to be compensated, even if
the company in question happens to be under federal jurisdiction,
section 92(13) of the Constitution takes precedence and the
provincial legislation applies. Now, in 1996, we cannot again
question a practice that was entrenched in our Constitution, unless
the Constitution itself is laid open to question.
In another decision, in 1937, following a reference on
unemployment insurance, the Privy Council reaffirmed the
provinces' exclusive jurisdiction over victim compensation. This is
why-I shall make this my concluding statement-the Reform
motion, despite its praiseworthy intentions, runs totally counter to
the policy of the Reform Party, which has been calling since it
arrived here for greater decentralization of the federal system and
respect for the exclusive provincial areas of jurisdiction.
Praiseworthy intentions, but the wrong approach, surprisingly. I
would have preferred the Reform Party to continue along its path of
decentralization of powers and respect for the jurisdictions of each
of the provinces, instead of giving in to what I am sure was a flood
of good intentions, and questioning an area of jurisdiction which is
clearly provincial.
(1630)
[English]
Mr. Jim Silye (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
comment from the hon. member from the Bloc flies in the face of
reality; decentralization on a number of issues from education, to
health care, to job retraining and all these other areas we have
talked about and have been promoting the idea or suggesting
governments look at the British North America Act again and start
getting things back in proper perspective and let the provinces look
after certain areas and get the federal government to ensure
standardization across the county and let the provinces handle
things.
However, when it comes to the justice system, to say that
although our intentions are honourable in terms of victims' rights,
the federal government very much has to be involved in something
like this.
It very much has to ensure that no matter where we live, whether
it is in Quebec-a great province in this wonderful country where
they belong and where this member should stop trying to pull them
out of-British Columbia, Newfoundland or anywhere, we need a
constitution, a set of laws which applies all across the country.
Within the various provincial jurisdictions we then allow for the
differences needed to be applied.
We have federal laws in the criminal system and we have
provincial laws. Quebec has civil laws as well and we respect that
difference based on history. For him to say that although our
intentions are honourable we should butt out of the legal system is
ridiculous.
This is an honest attempt by our member from Fraser Valley
West to look after the interests of all Canadians whether
anglophone, francophone or of ethnic origin from any country. It is
to look after the victims. That is the point, victims who are, as the
justice minister said, orphans of the justice system.
Somebody commits a crime. They are tried and found guilty.
The victim is either beat up, dead or suffering physically. Once the
trial is over they are forgotten. What we spend money and time and
effort on is rehabilitation. Our system of justice is out of whack.
The punishment does not match the crime over half the time. The
judges have too much leeway. Instead of spending time in
narrowing choices, and the House has the right to do that, we waste
our time on other measures. We should be concentrating on items
like this to ensure we are bringing a balance to the justice system.
This issue of decentralization and victims' rights is something
the federal government should very much be involved in.
Mr. de Savoye: Mr. Speaker, I know this intervention from the
Reform Party is very sincere. However, in Quebec for many years
we have been doing exactly what the Reform Party is proposing
right now. Many other provinces have not done so. The privy
council recognizes those powers and has given them to the
provinces as per the Constitution
Basically what I am saying is let every province copy the
example of Quebec. Quebec is different. Quebec on this subject
and on many other subjects has taken the lead in Canada. We were
here first, so maybe that explains it. However, if anyone wants to
come to Quebec and have a look at how we are doing it, they are
welcome. Then they can copy whatever we are doing.
However, do not duplicate once again here in the House with
measures that are already implemented and working successfully
in Quebec. That would be duplication. That would be spending the
public's money unwisely. The intent is fine, but let the provinces do
it as Quebec has been doing it.
2083
(1635)
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Could the member for
Portneuf help me out? Was it his intention to share his time? He has
had ten minutes, and he has another ten minute block for his
speech.
Mr. de Savoye: Mr. Speaker, that was my intention, and I
thought it had been understood. I see that perhaps it was not. In
which case, I am sharing my time with the hon. member for
Drummond.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Everything is in order. The
member for Portneuf used only ten minutes, which is the time
allowed.
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am
delighted to take part in the debate on this motion. It asks the
government to direct the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal
Affairs to draft a victims' bill of rights. If the committee
determines a right to be a provincial concern, the Minister of
Justice would have to initiate consultations to establish a national
standard.
The Bloc cannot join the Reform Party in supporting this motion,
and I will explain why. However, I would first like to make it very
clear that the Bloc Quebecois supports the protection and
compensation of victims of criminal acts. This is basic, as my
colleague for Portneuf pointed out. However, victim compensation
is clearly a matter for the provinces, and the federal government
has no reason to get involved in this area of provincial jurisdiction.
This right is a matter for provincial administration of justice. In
fact, this cannot be a matter of federal criminal law under section
91(27) of the Constitution Act. It in fact comes under provincial
property and civil rights under section 92(13) of the Constitution. I
think this is clear.
Therefore national standards in this area would be a flagrant
encroachment on areas of exclusive provincial jurisdiction. Twice
the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, the court of final
appeal before its abolition in 1949, recognized the jurisdiction of
the provinces over matters of victim compensation.
First, in 1920, in the matter of the Canadian Pacific and the
British Columbia Workmen's Compensation Board, the Privy
Council recognized that, in the case of victim compensation, even
if the company involved were under federal jurisdiction, section
92(13) of the Constitution Act applied. This too is clear. The court
concluded that the laws of British Columbia applied in the case of
victim compensation.
In another ruling in 1937, in the Reference on Unemployment
Insurance, the Privy Council reaffirmed exclusive provincial
jurisdiction over compensation of victims. Clearly, from these
rulings, compensation of victims is a provincial matter.
Accordingly the motion by the Reform Party directly contravenes
their party policy, which advocates greater decentralization of the
federal system and full respect of exclusive provincial jurisdiction.
It is surprising as well to see the Reform Party defending
victims' rights, when it voted against the bill on gun registration.
(1640)
The Bloc believes that prevention is the best way to protect
victims. In other words, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of
cure, as everybody knows.
With its contradictory positions, the Reform Party is revealing
the inconsistency of its policy on crime.
You cannot properly defend the rights of victims when you
refuse to prevent crime by voting against the mandatory
registration of guns, a measure aimed at preventing an increase in
violent crime.
Another reason this motion must be rejected has to do with the
throne speech. Following the throne speech, the Liberal
government made a commitment to stop spending and encroaching
on areas under the jurisdiction of the provinces without their
approval. Accordingly, before the Standing Committee on Justice
and Legal Affairs is asked to consider the matter, the approval of
the provinces would have to be sought. It would in all likelihood be
denied by most of them.
Quebec is the leader with its Crime Victims Compensation Act.
This legislation provides for a plan to compensate injured victims
of crimes. Compensation is also provided for families of
individuals killed. This legislation does not prevent civil law suits
against an assailant for material damages or bodily harm.
This act fully meets the necessary objective of compensating the
victims of criminal acts, especially since claims for compensation
are examined by a commission which will ensure that the amount
of compensation awarded is sufficient, fair and equitable.
The provinces have no need of the federal level to administer
areas over which they have exclusive jurisdiction, particularly
since Quebec's legislation on the treatment of offenders and
victims is far more open and far less repressive than elsewhere in
Canada. But when there is a desire to impose national standards,
not only must the areas in which the standards are to be imposed
come under federal jurisdiction, but also the government must have
the necessary funds to invest in the undertaking.
At the present time, the federal government no longer has the
financial capacity to invest in encroaching on areas of provincial
jurisdiction. On the contrary, the financial hole the future
generations will have to get themselves out of is due, in large part,
to the massive federal invasion of areas that are the exclusive
jurisdiction of the provinces.
2084
The federal government has used its financial clout to impose
national standards on the provinces by sharing program costs. This
centralizing trend is running down at this time, simply because
of the financial irresponsibility of the federal government, which
has sought to add to its power by thumbing its nose at the division
of powers imposed by the Canadian Constitution.
In conclusion, it is clear that the federal government has no place
in the area of victim compensation. Federal invasion of this area
would constitute an unacceptable encroachment into provincial
jurisdictions and would run directly counter to the Liberal
government's promises in the throne speech.
[English]
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I have a
couple of quick questions. First, I heard from this speaker and the
previous speaker about the encroachment of the federal
government into provincial jurisdiction. Point 8 of our victims' bill
of rights states that if a person convicted of a sexual offence has a
sexually transmitted disease, the victim of that offender should be
able to find out about that fact. There was rape case tried in
Montreal where the victim asked to have the perpetrator tested for
AIDS and it was denied under the charter of rights. Yet both the
previous speakers said they are doing very nicely and they do not
need these kinds of rights.
(1645)
That is one illustration. I am sure that if I searched I would find a
lot more examples of how it is just not being done in Quebec even
though it is claimed that it is.
The approach being taken by the member is not a focus on the
victims, it is still a focus on sovereignty and separation from the
country. Is the member not trying to indicate that legislation that
may come from this House would not apply to them because they
choose to be another country, rather than concentrating on victims'
rights.
[Translation]
Mrs. Picard: Mr. Speaker, I think that our colleague from the
Reform Party is mixing apples and oranges. Nobody is trying to
drag sovereignty into this motion. As I said earlier, the Bloc
Quebecois is clearly in favour of protecting and compensating
victims of crime.
What we are saying is that the administration of justice comes
under the exclusive jurisdiction of the provinces. I will tell him
again why that is so. This area of jurisdiction cannot come under
the federal authority over criminal law set out in section 91 (27) of
the Constitution Act. It comes instead under property and civil
rights, which are under provincial jurisdiction, pursuant to section
92 (13) of the Constitution.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier-Montcalm, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, my congratulations to the hon. member for Drummond
for having grasped the problem. I do not think that Reform has. The
Reform Party, and this we have seen in several matters, makes
comments, talks about certain things without really understanding
the ins and outs of the subject.
Anything concerning the victims of criminal acts, and all of the
issue of victims' rights, is the responsibility of the government of
each province. If the Reform Party understood this rather important
little item, it would perhaps see fewer problems in certain matters,
would perhaps accuse us less of talking sovereignty or
Constitution, if they at least wanted to respect the present
Constitution. That is where one of the problems of the federal
government lies, and the Reform Party represents that problem
very well, the desire to legislate in areas that do not belong to it.
As I saw for myself when a member of the justice and legal
affairs committee where we assessed the Young Offenders Act
among other things, we in Quebec are at least 25 years ahead of the
Reform Party. I understand that they do not understand that this is
an area that does not belong to them, that this is not a federal
jurisdiction. If everyone respected the Constitution, the country
might not be so deep in debt today, perhaps we would not be
discussing the things we are today.
I would like to ask the hon. member for Drummond, perhaps for
the benefit of the Reformers, to repeat the extremely important bit
of her speech in which she said that Quebec has an act for
compensating the victims of crime. I would like her to go over it a
bit so that the Reform members might understand what they did not
grasp. Now we are giving them the chance to turn to the French
channel and listen to the answer they will get.
Mrs. Picard: Mr. Speaker, the Quebec Crime Victims
Compensation Act provides for a plan to compensate injured
victims of crimes. Compensation is also provided for families of
individuals killed. This legislation does not prevent civil law suits
against an assailant for material damages or bodily harm.
It meets the objectives for compensation of victims of crime,
particularly because requests for compensation are examined by a
commission for victims of crime, which ensures that victims
receive sufficient, just and equitable compensation. This is the
effect of this law.
(1650 )
[English]
Mr. Jim Silye (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I would
like to address one item in the speech of the hon. member for
Drummond. She said the Reform Party is not consistent and is
contradictory. It is not really protecting victims and victims' rights
because we voted against the gun control bill.
2085
That is a pretty general and blank statement. Perhaps the
information she received was ill-informed, much like the hon.
member for Kingston and the Islands is half the time, uninformed
and ill-informed.
I want to put on the record that the primary reason this party
voted against the gun control bill was because it was an omnibus
bill. It confused the punishment for the criminal misuse of firearms
which we support. We favoured that part of the bill and in fact we
recommended in amendments that it go to five years instead of four
years.
Mr. Milliken: Nonsense.
Mr. Silye: If the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands
would listen he would also learn from this.
It is the firearms registration portion that we were against and
that is why we voted against it. I do not see where we are
contradictory at all. We are interested in victims' rights.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): No doubt the hon. member
for Kingston and the Islands would like to answer but he will have
to wait for another time. I am sure he will seize that opportunity.
[Translation]
Mrs. Picard: Mr. Speaker, I would say this to the Reform
member: When you are out to protect victims, you make sure you
have the best means of protecting them, and the best way of
protecting them is prevention. To my way of thinking, protection
outweighs cure.
Reform members opposed the bill on gun control, which, to my
mind, is not the way to prevent violence.
[English]
Mr. Andrew Telegdi (Waterloo, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if I
remember correctly, the hon. member for Calgary Centre voted in
favour of the gun control legislation that this government proposed.
I am surprised he is talking from the opposing side about it right
now.
There is no question that all members in the House support
services to victims and better treatment for victims within the
criminal justice system.
I have been involved in a judicial agency, Youth in Conflict with
the Law in the Waterloo region. I was involved with a whole series
of organizations that dealt with offenders, the community and
victims. There is no question as we examine the various programs
that are offered in the country that Quebec is very much a leader in
the area of criminal justice reform as well as dealing with victims
of crime.
When I first became involved in working with offenders in the
early seventies it became very clear that for the rehabilitation of
young offenders, they would have to face up to their actions. They
would have to make contact, where possible, with the people that
they victimized and they would have to make restitution.
We have a number of programs in my community. We have
pioneered many programs related to the judicial system in the
Waterloo region. One of the programs that we pioneered was Youth
in Conflict with the Law, working with young offenders.
Another program we pioneered was Kitchener House, a halfway
house, so when people were being released from provincial
institutions they would be eased into the community. The John
Howard Society was active in our community and the Mennonite
Central Committee started up the first victim offender
reconciliation program back in the seventies. That is where the
victim and the offender come together. When they are younger
individuals it impresses on them the seriousness of their acts and
the fact that there is a person involved who is hurt. From the
victim's perspective, in many cases it helps them demystify who
the offender is. We try to work out some compensation, fiscal and
voluntary, that the offender can make to compensate the victim.
(1655)
We also recognized that victim services needed to be present
within the police department. When victims were going to the
courts and facing the trauma that victims face, people would be
assisting them and explaining to them how the judicial system,
which can be a very complex system, works.
There was also a group which initially got involved because of a
sentence handed down to a sexual offender. A grandfather had
sexually abused his granddaughter and they felt the grandfather got
an inappropriately low sentence. The group started out calling
themselves citizens concerned with crimes against children.
Initially it was a lobby group reacting against the sentence. The
next thing it had become involved in victim services in the
community working with children, doing a lot of prevention work.
Its members are always ready to respond in case help is needed, be
it from the police or from other family members, but they were
always there to assist the victim.
One of the troublesome aspects of the present state of affairs in
the criminal justice system is we do not do enough to re-examine
the way we deal with crime. In many cases we are following a
knee-jerk approach, an approach that is being driven by the rhetoric
of members of the Reform Party.
We get into a mindset that says we should try to deal with crime
in a ``lock them up, throw away the key'' approach. In my
community the victim services program for the police which we
pioneered and which was supported by the provincial government,
under the Harris government has been cut, slashed. That is for
victims' rights. They are the kissing cousins of the Reform Party.
2086
The program for husbands who abuse their spouses, run by the
John Howard Society, was slashed to the bone. This program was
to stop people from reoffending and to stop further victimization.
The sexual assault program, where community justice initiatives
deal with victims of sexual assault, children and otherwise, was
slashed by the provincial government. That concerns victims.
The biggest problem is we tend to ape and the rhetoric of the
Reform Party apes what is happening in the United States in terms
of crime and crime prevention. There is no worse model that we
can possibly follow. The Europeans have shown much more
effective ways of dealing with offenders which in turn makes the
cost of the justice system cheaper and in turn allows funding for
victims' services.
The tragedy is that there is not enough funding for victims'
services because we are misspending it in the criminal justice
system. At the present rate of sentencing it is expected that the
population of prisons will increase by 50 per cent over the next five
years. What a waste of money when keeping a person in prison
costs $50,000 a year.
Let us be very clear when I am talking about people in prison and
the justice system, I am talking about people who are property
offenders, non-violent offenders, people who could be handled
much cheaper in the community, be it through community service,
or restitution or probation.
The climate that has been created is that away too much money
is being thrown into the imprisonment area and we are doing
precious little in the justice area.
(1700 )
I recommend to the members of the Reform Party that they look
at the work of the crime community safety council. They might
even go back to March 1993 when Mr. Horner, a former RCMP
officer, a Progressive Conservative and the head of the justice
committee, came up with a unanimous all-party recommendation
in a report which would have dramatically shifted the way in which
we dealt with the criminal justice system. It would have led to more
community prevention and more work with victims.
If there is a problem in our system now, it is that we have not
followed up on the recommendations of the Horner commission
and the justice committee on this issue. There are many cases in
that report of shifting resources to victims, to crime prevention and
community safety. There is a rethinking of the way Canadians
should deal with the whole issue of crime.
There is no question that in many cases victims have been
ignored. I have worked in the system since the early 1970s and it
breaks my heart to see victim programs in my community being
slashed by the Progressive Conservative government in the
province of Ontario. It is the ideological kissing cousin of the
Reform Party.
I accept that Reformers are being sincere in what they are trying
to do. Please take a look at the justice committee report by Mr.
Horner. Look at the cry from police across this country that there
has to be a better, more effective way. Let us look to the European
models and not to the United States. We know the American system
does not work.
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Vegreville, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, today the
Reform Party brought forth legislation that would enshrine a
victims bill of rights into law in Canada. Today the Liberals
brought forth legislation that would enshrine sexual orientation as a
protected category under the Canadian Human Rights Act. Which
of these two issues are the hon. member's constituents and
Canadians more interested in having this House deal with? Which
of those two issues is more important to Canadians?
Mr. Telegdi: Mr. Speaker, we are not living in a world of
either/or. Many things are important to Canadians. I know that 81
per cent of Canadians are concerned that people not be
discriminated against on the basis of their sexual orientation. A
poll has not yet been done in Canada which shows that Canadians
condone discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.
However, that does not negate the whole issue of victims which we
must address.
I will repeat to the member that I shed tears when I see funding
slashed by the provincial government for programs that were
painfully developed to nourish community support for victims,
victims in my community.
There is no question that I will support the motion for a victims
bill of rights, but we have to look at where the money will come
from. We will get that money if we make the judicial system more
effective. It will not be more effective if we continue with the
rhetoric of the Reform Party. We will increase the rate of
incarceration in this country by 50 per cent at a great expense and it
will not be effective.
I hope the Reform Party members phone their ideological
cousins in the province of Ontario, the Progressive Conservative
government members, to protest the cutting of victims programs. I
expect and hope that members of the Reform Party will do that. I
look forward to their doing that.
(1705 )
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
member mentioned the cost of keeping people incarcerated. Does
the member know that in 1989 the bureau of justice statistics issued
estimates of how many crimes are prevented when people are
locked up rather than walking the streets? Analyst Patrick Langdon
concluded that higher incarceration rates between 1973 and 1989
2087
cut the number of rapes by 66,000, robberies by 323,000, assaults
by 380,000 and burglaries by 3.3 million.
In addition, in 1995 a Princeton University criminologist wrote
that the best available estimates of prison operating costs led him to
calculate that imprisoning 100 convicted felons who offended at
the median rate cost $2.5 million, but leaving them on the streets
cost $4.6 million. It is actually cheaper to keep offenders in prison.
Has the member heard of those statistics?
Mr. Telegdi: Mr. Speaker, I am amazed at what comes forward
from members of the Reform Party. If their advice were to be
followed we would lock up everyone possible and throw away the
key. It is because of that kind of attitude that we have picked up on
the American model which is very expensive and destructive. It
does not promote safer communities. It ends up being very costly
and does nothing for the victims of crime.
The conference that was held at the Royal York Hotel in March
1993 brought people together from across the country. Police
officers, judges, people in government and people from
communities were there. The Federation of Municipalities was
there, as well as groups representing victims rights, young
offenders and correctional services. They concluded, after looking
at all the models in the free world, that the one which worked the
best was the European model and the least desirable model was the
American model.
The hon. member did not take me up on my challenge when I
asked him if he and his party were going to phone the premier of
Ontario and say to him: ``We do not want you to stop funding
programs for the victims of crime in the province of Ontario''. That
is exactly what is happening in the province of Ontario right now.
We have to pay attention to victims. We have to ensure that the
support services are there for them. I hope Reform members will
contact the premier of Ontario and say: ``We do not want you to
stop funding programs for the victims of crime''.
Mr. Roger Gallaway (Sarnia-Lambton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
it is my pleasure to speak on the motion today which urges the
government to direct the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal
Affairs to draft a victims bill of rights.
The government has continued a trend to be more responsive to
victims. The improvements to the justice system, initiated by the
federal government, were made without any victims bill of rights.
The government took action because it was the right thing to do.
Earlier today we heard numerous examples of specific initiatives
to benefit victims of crime. These initiatives go well beyond the
principles that would be set out in a victims bill of rights. Actions
do speak louder than words.
I support the adoption of a federal declaration on the rights of
victims, but I believe there are several factors to consider. I am in
favour of a declaration of rights for victims, but I believe we should
be speaking about concrete rights for victims. In lending support
for a national bill, which I assume suggests federal legislation, we
must be careful not to prescribe rights over which the federal
government has no jurisdiction and no authority to enforce.
(1710 )
Actions speak louder than words. Setting out principles and
calling them rights which could not be effectively enforced would
be pointless. We should direct our energy at addressing specific
issues which we have the power to address.
Recommendations for a victims bill of rights are not novel. This
debate has been ongoing since the mid-1980s. Ever since the
American Congress passed its federal victims bill of rights, many
Canadians have advocated that we follow suit. It is difficult to
disagree with a bill of rights for victims. However, we should
ensure that victims of crime will benefit from a so-called bill of
rights.
We have had this discussion at both levels of government,
federal and provincial. Since the report to ministers of justice of the
federal task force on justice for victims of crime in 1983, the
federal government, the provinces and territories have been
engaged in ongoing consultations regarding improvements to the
criminal justice system which would benefit victims of crime
within the respective areas of responsibility. These consultations
have squarely addressed the enactment of a victims bill of rights.
In 1985 Canada co-sponsored the United Nations statement of
basic principles of justice for victims of crime. Canada's justice
system already reflected those principles in 1985. The UN
declaration prompted the federal and provincial governments to
re-examine the issue of a victims bill of rights. There was an
overwhelming consensus that a national bill of rights would not
advance the cause of victims.
While all the provinces and the federal government were
sincerely committed to making changes to the justice system, it
was recognized that certain concerns could only be addressed by
provincial legislation and other concerns could be addressed by
federal legislation. The majority of concerns could not be
addressed by legislation at all, but by changing attitudes about the
role of the victim in the process and about basic human values of
dignity and respect.
It was also recognized that in order to be meaningful a bill of
rights must have a mechanism of enforcement. Rights without
remedies cannot truly be said to be rights. For example, if a bill of
rights states that victims have the right to receive timely
information about the status of the investigation or the prosecution
of the offender, what is the remedy when they feel they have not
received
2088
timely information? Who is responsible? Likely it is the police
and/or the crown.
How can a single piece of legislation assign obligations to
different participants in a justice system that play distinct roles and
are employed by separate ministries? Moreover what is the
remedy? Should the prosecution be called off because the victim
did not get information? I do not think so. The advocates of a bill of
rights do not think so either.
The example makes the point that all we really can do is
prescribe a set of principles to guide all players in the criminal
justice system and continue to encourage them to adhere to these
principles. The victim is essential to the proper functioning of our
criminal justice system and is deserving of the utmost
consideration at all stages in the process.
The federal government is responsible for enacting the criminal
law while the provinces are generally responsible for the
enforcement of the law, the prosecution of offences and the
administration of justice. Given that a bill of rights would not be of
rights at all but of principles, the provinces and the federal
government would get together and do something else.
In 1988 at a meeting of justice ministers, the federal and
provincial governments endorsed the Canadian statement of basic
principles of justice for victims of crime. The notion of a statement
rather than a bill of rights addressed both the jurisdictional and the
practical concerns. All jurisdictions would ensure that whatever
initiatives they pursued would reflect these principles, whether in
policy or in legislation.
Since 1988 several provinces, including Manitoba, Nova Scotia,
New Brunswick, Quebec, Ontario, Alberta and both the territories
have enacted victim legislation which does refer to these
principles.
The Canadian statement of basic principles of justice for victims
of crime states that in recognition of the United Nations declaration
of basic principles of justice for victims of crime, federal and
provincial ministers responsible for criminal justice agree that the
following principles should guide Canadian society in promoting
access to justice, fair treatment and provision of assistance for
victims of crime.
First, victims should be treated with courtesy, compassion and
respect for their dignity and privacy. They should suffer the
minimum of necessary inconvenience from their involvement with
the criminal justice system.
(1715 )
Victims should receive through formal and informal procedures
prompt and fair redress for the harm which they have suffered.
Information regarding remedies and the mechanisms to obtain
them should be made available to victims.
Information should made available to victims about their
participation in criminal proceedings and the scheduling, progress
and ultimate disposition of the proceedings.
Where appropriate the views and concerns of victims should be
ascertained and assistance provided throughout the criminal
process.
Where the personal interests of the victim are affected, the views
or concerns of the victim should be brought to the attention of the
court where appropriate and consistent with criminal law and
procedure.
Measures should be taken when necessary to ensure the safety of
victims and their families and to protect them from intimidation
and retaliation.
Enhanced training should be made available to sensitize criminal
justice personnel to the needs and concerns of victims and
guidelines developed where appropriate for this purpose.
Victims should be informed of the availability of health and
social services and other relevant assistance so they might continue
to receive the necessary medical, psychological and social
assistance through existing programs and services. Also, victims
should report the crime and co-operate with law enforcement
authorities.
As members can see, the majority of these principles relate to
matters that can be addressed only by the police, prosecutors or
court officials. In other words, the majority of victim issues fall to
the provinces. It was therefore essential that the provinces had
input into the statement and so overwhelmingly supported it.
The question is whether a national bill of rights for victims will
do more than the existing statement of principles. A national bill of
rights would likely be welcomed by victims, but they would be
even more interested in concrete action on the government's
commitment to issues like gun control, sentencing and the recently
introduced initiatives of Bill C-17 and Bill C-27, which include
provisions to strengthen or expand existing protections such as
peace bonds and publication bans. Again, actions speak louder than
words.
We must also look at the progress made in the last 15 years and
talk to victims to find out what they really need in 1996.
In February of this year I read an article in the Vancouver Sun
that highlighted the hon. member's proposal for victim rights, in
many respects similar to the Canadian statement of basic
principles: a right to information about services, a right to be
informed of the offender's status, court dates, sentencing dates, a
right to an oral or victim impact statement and a right to protection
from intimidation.
2089
It also went beyond the existing statement that proposed a right
to participate in plea bargain discussions, a right to have police
lay charges in domestic violence cases and a right to know if an
offender has a sexually transmitted disease. These are certainly
controversial issues but they are probably incapable of a remedy
in the event of a breach. Moreover, they impact on areas that only
the provinces can address.
I emphasize again that I strongly believe that victims of crime
have a role to play in our criminal justice system and as such we
must do whatever is feasible to ensure their participation does not
result in revictimization. Ideally we would like to prevent crime
and in consequence prevent victimization.
While we are making significant inroads in crime prevention, we
know there will always be victims of crime. That is a sad but true
fact. Therefore we must be responsive to their concerns. I believe
the government has shown leadership and we know the work is not
done. It still requires improvement in a variety of ways, all of
which will in turn benefit the victims.
I am also aware the provinces continue to pursue initiatives to
improve the administration of justice to benefit victims. I am aware
the issue will be discussed at next week's meeting of federal,
provincial and territorial ministers responsible for criminal justice.
I am sure the provinces will be keenly interested in the hon.
member's motion and in today's debate.
While I have no problem supporting a bill of rights for victims, I
do not believe it is a cure-all remedy.
(1720 )
Mr. Randy White (Fraser Valley West, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is
kind of sad to hear the things we hear. Sometimes when we are
debating with the lawyers in the House, the legal industry, that is
the very group which has provided a lot of the problems as far as
victims' rights go.
To stand in the House, as the justice minister did this morning,
and riddle off all these statements of principles the United Nations
and others have dealt with is nice. However, the reason this is
before the House today is virtually all of that is not done. It is nice
to ascribe to a set of principles but when we do nothing about it,
that is the problem.
There was the suggestion that it is only the Reform Party looking
at some of these issues. Every victims' right group, virtually every
one in the country, has had input into these legislative ideals we
have tabled and agrees with them. I see a big difference in that we
are not here to talk about only a statement of principles. We are
here to have victims' rights somewhere in legislation.
I would like to hear the non-legalese version of my hon.
colleague on whether is it better to have a statement of principles
which no one is buying into in the legal industry or to have some
form of legislation for victims and victims' rights.
Mr. Gallaway: Mr. Speaker, I find it amusing if not ironic that
we talk about the justice industry in this country. I have to turn it
back and ask if the Reform Party is interested in doing away with
those who represent people before the courts, if it would do away
with their right to counsel, if it would do away with their right to a
proper defence, if it willingly and wilfully eliminate people's
access to knowledge of the law, and if it would say a person is
going to go into court, not be represented, be accused by the full
force of the state and be left to fly by the seat of their pants.
The hon. member wants to know if it is better to have a statement
of principles or to have a bill of rights. I will give as an example
witnesses who appeared before the justice committee two weeks
ago. The hon. member was not at that meeting. There appeared
before the justice committee two weeks ago-
The Deputy Speaker: The policy in the House is not to refer to
the fact that a member was not in the House or was not in the
committee. I ask the member not to do that again.
Mr. Gallaway: Mr. Speaker, a couple of weeks ago before the
justice committee appeared victims' rights groups. The sole point
raised in this testimony was that as victims they felt intimidated by
certain gangs within a community. There is no question these
people were the victims of a horrendous crime.
If the federal government had two years ago enacted victims'
rights legislation there would be nothing the victims in this case
could do to enforce those rights because, as we know, policing falls
within the jurisdiction of the provinces. As a result, if the police do
not respond to a call, if the police do or do not intervene, a federal
bill giving them some sort of a right cannot be enforced
provincially. It can be enforced only with respect to the jurisdiction
of the federal government. We may not like this, but that is a fact of
Canadian life.
(1725)
Therefore I would suggest that in this case a statement of
principles which becomes policy within the respective federal and
provincial jurisdictions is just as effective as a bill of rights
attempting to effect provincial jurisdiction but which will have no
effect whatsoever on provincial authorities.
We can have a bill of rights but unless we are legislating within
our purview the end result is that we are making a statement of
principles. As we know, we cannot legislate, we cannot dictate to
police forces how many officers they will have. Only the solicitor
general of a province can do that.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): The time has expired for
questions and answers.
2090
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I will
be sharing my time with the hon. member for Comox-Alberni.
When you are in your constituency you hear from people who
manage to listen to the parliamentary channel every once in a while
and what goes on in the Chamber. They are sick and tired of
hearing this legal jargon. Over and over we hear all of these
lawyers talking and illustrating all the good things they know and
all the wonderful things they are to do. Let us not confuse things.
Let us talk about this or that. They have people's minds totally
confused.
What is it they stand for? What are they trying to do? What do
they mean by doing this and that? I think everybody out there is
coming to the conclusion I came to a long time ago that the more
you keep the people confused, the public, the better it is for the
people in the House of Commons, particularly the Liberals.
We came out with a document, a victims' bill of rights. We get
all this rhetoric that they can support it, but. Certainly they can
support it. They had better support it. It does not make sense that
they constantly come up with this whole idea of all these wonderful
things they have been doing for two and half years are the answer to
victims. They are not. They are not listening at all.
There are eight points on this list. The reason they are on this list,
the reason they are on our agenda is that they are on the people's
agenda throughout the land. If anybody in the House thinks the
majority of Canadians are really happy with our justice system, for
heaven's sake let us all go home and ask them one more time how
happy they are.
These eight items are on this list because they are on the people's
list. That is what they want to see happen. Look at point eight, that
victims have a right to now if a person convicted of a sexual
offence has a sexually transmitted disease. I cannot believe all the
lawyer rhetoric in the House trying to tell us what is wrong with
that statement when it is pure and simple.
It is based on several cases, one in particular in Quebec, which is
supposed to be doing all the right things, of a woman working in a
church office, a secretary, on a Saturday, when she was raped, not
sexually assaulted, raped, beaten by an individual on a day pass
from prison. After all the trauma of being beaten and raped and
humiliated and scarred for life, she simply wanted to know if this
perpetrator had a sexually transmitted disease or HIV. She wanted
to eliminate that possibility.
For goodness sake, if that does not make just plain old ordinary
horse sense, I do not know what does. We heard this kind of
rhetoric a dozen times from a couple of speakers.
(1730 )
Once again this is on our agenda because it is on the agenda of
Canadians. It is on the agenda of the people from FACT, CAVEAT,
CRY, Move the Rock, Remove the Rock, the Kid Brother
campaign. More and more a whole pile of individuals are signing
up to the victims groups across the land.
Why is it that in two and one-half years membership in the
victims organizations is growing probably 10 to 100 times faster
than the membership in the Liberal Party? Why is it when victims
of crime are invited to a convention in Hamilton that come
thousands come? It is because we are not doing our job.
We are now asking that we provide something which represents
what they would like to have. We are listening to the people. These
are the things the police are calling for. These are the things the
public is calling for. It is not just the Reform Party. It is on our
agenda because it is on the people's agenda. I am really tired of
hearing about these wonderful bills the Liberals have passed in two
and one-half years, C-37, C-68, C-41, all the wonderful things they
are doing for the victims.
It is really amazing that in January 1994 all these things were
supposed to be submitted to the justice minister in order for him to
come up with some new ideas on the Young Offenders Act. He
came up with Bill C-37. If C-37 was such a hot and wonderful bill,
will somebody please explain why the justice minister has the
justice committee going all across the country asking people what
they want to do about young offenders? It is because he knows it is
not even close to being solved. Yet three, four or five times today in
the House I heard the Liberals saying what a wonderful thing they
have done for victims.
Nobody talks about the fact that in Bill C-41 the Liberals wanted
to put dangerous offenders in alternative programs which we
opposed. Nobody even mentioned the legislation where if a
member of this place or some other elected place commits a crime,
as long as their sentence was not longer than five years-until we
had it amended-they could still draw their pay and be a member
of the government they were elected into. Nobody even mentions
that. We had it reduced to two years. Is it not wonderful to know
that if you are a parliamentarian you can go out and break the law
and as long as your sentence is not longer than two years you can
still get your pay and be happy?
All we are saying is to address the victims. These are some of the
things we can do. These are some of the things that will give hope
to the people from those organizations in our constituencies.
With Bill C-68, the same old rhetoric flies on and on. Nobody
mentions the 150 pages that address the law-abiding people and the
very little that addresses the criminal. Nobody mentions all the
flaws that were in that legislation. Thank goodness we have our
2091
member for Calgary North who has a little bit of law experience.
He sat with me for a day or two and explained all the flaws that
were in that law and what made it such a bad piece of legislation. It
was not the principle of making certain that people are not hurt
with guns. This was wise. However, C-68 certainly did not take
care of that.
What a tragedy that case was in Vernon, but the law was
followed to the letter when it came to C-68. All the right paperwork
was in place, registration and everything. The only thing they failed
to say was that the person had victimized people in the past. With a
little bit of time and effort they would have realized that we cannot
issue a gun to a person like that. That is all it would have taken.
Now C-68 certainly did not do a lot of good in that case. Stop all
that nonsense. It is not doing that much good and it will not do any
good.
(1735 )
Think of the people who got out on bail. People are arrested at
breakfast and bailed out at noon. There are over a dozen cases now
involving serious offences where the person was arrested and
bailed out. They then went on to finish the act before the day was
over. They committed murder and sexual assault.
We should do something about protecting victims in those
situations, but we do not do anything. We come out with thick
documents which are flawed to no end and then brag about them.
We get a bunch of lawyer talk to make people out there in the land
think we know what we are doing. And they wonder what we are
doing because they do not understand.
I am beginning to understand more and more. There is one thing
I believe with all my heart. I was told this by an individual some
time ago. I am beginning to see what he meant. He said that when
the government fears the people we have a democracy and when
the people start fearing the government we have tyranny. He said
we had better watch what is happening in Canada and I believe him
now more than ever.
Mr. Telegdi: Mr. Speaker, in terms of government legislation,
the hon. member for Calgary Centre made some of the same points.
Interestingly enough, the hon. member for Calgary Centre who
spoke against the government's gun legislation today, supported
the government when the legislation was before the House. I guess
that is rehabilitation Reform style. The two members who
supported the government have been rehabilitated. They have been
taken to the woodshed.
I have in my hand the victims services pamphlet which is put out
by the Waterloo regional police. It says that victims of crime need
not suffer physical injuries to experience severe effects for weeks
or months after the crime. They may feel anger, fear, guilt and
helplessness. To assist victims in dealing with the effects of crime
the Waterloo regional police established a victims services unit.
Civilian counsellors in the unit provide assistance to victims of
domestic violence, sexual assault and other crimes. Actually, a fair
number of the services it offers fit in with the Reform Party's
victims bill of rights.
Would the hon. member for Wild Rose and his party support the
idea of letting the Progressive Conservative government in the
province of Ontario know that the victims services as operated by
the Waterloo regional police force are services which they support
and that the provincial government should not be slashing funding
to that organization as well as other victims organizations?
Mr. Thompson: Mr. Speaker, first I will defend my colleague
for Calgary Centre. He votes with his nose once in a while; he votes
one way and holds his nose.
People are attempting to do a number of things across the land. A
lot of good volunteer organizations are trying their best to help the
victims. That is why we have all of these victims groups.
Of course there are a lot of things we would like to support
financially. However, we all know from the record of Liberal and
Conservative governments in the last few years that we are broke.
The provinces are struggling. It is a real battle. We continue to
waste money.
I really do not know what the situation is in the Ontario
government, but I have a better idea. I doubt if it costs a great deal
of money to provide certain things. Maybe we should come up with
it this way. Why does the hon. member and his colleagues not give
up their pensions? We could steer that money into the cause. What
about that for a change? Maybe we could get the front line people
to give up their limousines. We could use that money. Maybe you
could show some leadership in that area instead of give, give, give.
In the meantime, you are trying to figure out how much money you
can get, get, get. The attitude on that side of the House stinks.
(1740)
The Deputy Speaker: The other member was corrected. I would
ask the member and all members, to please put their remarks
through the Chair and not across the floor.
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Comox-Alberni, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to participate in the debate on this Reform motion
concerning victims rights put forward by the member for Fraser
Valley West.
The point of the motion is very basic. We are asking the Liberal
government to commit to draw up a victims bill of rights. The
motion asks the government to direct the Standing Committee on
Justice and Legal Affairs to draft a victims bill of rights. In areas of
provincial jurisdiction the Minister of Justice should consult with
the provinces to arrive at a national standard. It is long past time
that victims rights be recognized.
2092
As a Reform member of Parliament I am proud to say that the
Reform Party is the only party fighting for victims rights in the
House. At the same time I am pleased that the Minister of Justice
has agreed to support the motion. However, it is not enough to
support the motion in principle. Policies must be followed up with
actions. The government has been notorious for its promises, but
its ability to follow through on the promises has left a lot to be
desired. The GST comes to mind.
This is the third debate on victims rights in the House since the
last election and Canadians are still waiting for a bill to come
forward. We have heard a lot of rhetoric, but victims need far more
than rhetoric. Principles carry little weight unless they are put into
action. We need a victims bill of rights and I hope that the
government will not keep victims waiting for much longer.
Canadians want a system that is fair, just and compassionate.
Canadians expect this from a justice system that currently
recognizes the rights of the criminal but refuses to entrench the
rights of the victim in legislation.
Our justice system is meant to serve all in society. At present it
serves just the criminals. There are three parts to a justice system:
the law, the criminals and the victims. Somewhere along the line
the victims have been left out of the equation. Victims have been
neglected by the system to the point where they are the last ones to
be consulted or considered and now they are going to be the last to
be recognized legally.
The focus of our justice system has been primarily on the
criminal. The victim has been shoved to the side and it is time that
we realigned our priorities so that victims rights are first and
foremost. The victim simply must come first.
In my constituency in Courtenay, B.C., on October 24, 1992 six
year old Dawn Shaw was raped and then stomped to death by her
babysitter, 16 year old Jason Gamache. Unknown to Dawn's
parents, Jason Gamache had two previous convictions of sexual
molestation. He had been convicted of two sexual assaults on four
year old children, one a girl, the other a boy.
In 1991 a year before the murder, Jason was convicted in
Nanaimo. He moved to Courtenay with his mother to attend court
ordered sex offender therapy through the John Howard Society.
Jason Gamache's probation order clearly stated that he was to have
no contact with children under the age of 12. Yet the only people
who knew about his background were his mother, his probation
officer and the John Howard Society. The RCMP were not notified
when Jason moved to Courtenay. They were unaware of his record.
Why? Because the criminal's rights were put ahead of those of
everyone else.
Jason Gamache was restricted from children under the age of 12,
yet he was living right next door to an elementary school. On the
same night that he murdered Dawn Shaw, he babysat Dawn Shaw's
brother and sister because Dawn Shaw's parents did not know he
was a convicted sex offender.
Jason Gamache received the maximum penalty of life with no
parole for 10 years. In 1999 when Jason Gamache is 23 he will be
eligible for unescorted release from day prison and will be free to
roam the streets. The greatest tragedy is that this and many other
crimes could have been prevented. Yet our system puts the rights of
the criminals, like Jason Gamache, ahead of the rights of society
and the rights of Dawn Shaw. Criminals like Jason Gamache have
all kinds of rights.
(1745)
What rights do the victims have? Surely six-year-old Dawn
Shaw and her parents had the right to know their babysitter was a
dangerous sexual offender. Convicted murderers demand their
rights be respected, but rights of victims go unheard.
What about the rights of those who suffer for a lifetime? What
rights do the parents of murdered children have? The rights of
families with small children like Dawn Shaw who are left
vulnerable and oblivious to the dangers of their environment are
secondary to the rights of her killer. We cannot put the rights of
criminals ahead of our children.
Canadians have the right to know the dangers that exist when
there are violent offenders roaming the streets or living next door.
Parents have the right to know when there is a child molester in
their backyard.
There is a need for a victims' bill of rights. There are a number
of rights victims should have yet they do not. Either they are not on
the books or there is no mechanism to enforce them. Too often
victims are not informed when there is an investigation and this
should not be happening in our justice system.
Victims should be fully informed about the progress and
outcome of the investigation and the charges to be laid against the
offender. If charges are not laid, the victims should be informed
why not. The victim must have the right to be informed of the
offender's status throughout the process, including, but not
restricted to, notification of any arrests, upcoming court dates,
sentencing dates, plans to release the offender from custody,
including notification of what community the parolee is being
released into, conditions of release and parole dates. Victims
should also be aware of the criminal's whereabouts at all times.
Victims' rights should also be extended to protect victims of
domestic violence. If a victim files a complaint of domestic
violence the police must have the authority to follow through tothe end.
2093
The rights of the victim and compensation for the victim's
losses should also be a priority consideration. The government
must hold the criminal accountable for the crime. Restitution
orders should be mandatory, not at the discretion of the courts.
It is not enough to give victims their rights. Victims need to know
what their rights are. Victims must be informed of their rights at
every stage and all information should be made available on
request.
Some provinces have taken the initiative to put forward
legislation that protects the rights of victims of crime. In British
Columbia the victim of crime act gives victims legal rights to
information and rights to compensation. However, it only applies
to those serving terms of less than two years who fall under
provincial jurisdiction.
Ontario victims' right bill allows victims to be provided with
information, yet the problem remains. Many of these measures
apply only to provincial institutions and will not help victims of
crimes under federal jurisdiction.
Provincial legislation is a move in the right direction but it is
only a beginning. Provincial laws to protect victims will only apply
to provincial violations.
Under the Constitution Act of 1867, Parliament has jurisdiction
over the management of penitentiaries, so anything related to
prisoners or parole are federal responsibilities. Yet victims have
fallen through the cracks because neither the federal government
nor the provincial governments have exclusive jurisdiction.
Victims fall into both federal and provincial jurisdiction and it is
the responsibility of both to work together to establish a national
standard for victims' rights.
Why is it that we have a national standard for the environment, a
national standard for health, a national standard for parks and a
national standard for broadcasting? Is it asking too much to
establish national standards for victims' rights? I think not.
It is time for the government to set things straight. It is time for
us to show compassion and respect for the victim, that is at the very
least equal to that which we give the criminal.
In conclusion, we are asking that the government look into a
victims' bill of rights. It is not a huge commitment but it is a small
but significant step in the right direction. I hope government
members will support this motion, not only with their vote but also
with their actions.
(1750)
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier-Montcalm, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, I listened to part of the member's speech and I wonder if I
understood and if the member has really analyzed the situation in
certain provinces. I will not speak about British Columbia, the
example used by the member, I will speak about Quebec.
In Quebec we have the Crime Victims Compensation Act. It is
not true that this act compensates victims or covers their rights only
when the offence is punishable by imprisonment of more than two
years. It applies to all crimes, as its name indicates. Therefore
whenever anyone suffers damages as the result of a murder, theft or
bodily harm, regardless of whether the crime is punishable by
imprisonment for two, five or ten years or six months or a fine, the
Crime Victim's Compensation Act applies.
Provinces without such legislation may be provinces where
interest is lacking. It is not up to the federal government to
establish it. This legislation is provincial. It is a provincial matter.
In Quebec we created this legislation with the Crime Victims
Compensation Act.
I would like to know from the member, with speeches being
made, things proposed and people accused, whether the members
of the Reform Party have at least done an analysis? Could the
member who just spoke tell us whether, from his research in certain
provinces, the legislation he has just quoted applied to all victims
of crime or just some? I would like to know whether he really
seriously analyzed the situation in British Columbia and Quebec.
I think he will conclude that it is not a matter of federal
jurisdiction and he will follow our example of advocating each
province's passing legislation to compensate victims of crime and
to enshrine victims' rights. We in the Bloc say that victims' rights
must be protected, but the right legislature must do the job, and I
think the Reform Party is once again mistaken.
[English]
Mr. Gilmour: Mr. Speaker, in response to the question, the
member for Fraser Valley East checked victims rights' bills across
Canada. The problem is that they are all over the board.
That is why a national standard is necessary. The standard should
apply right across the country. Otherwise, people will move from
province to province to get into jurisdictions where they may not
have to pay or may have a lesser penalty.
We need a national standard. It is not in place at the moment. It is
definitely required.
Mr. Gordon Kirkby (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
would like to ask the hon. member a question. The gun control
legislation gives police authority in cases where an individual has
threatened violence against a spouse, another person or has
committed an act of violence, under certain circumstances, to
remove the firearms from that offender.
2094
I wonder if the member is in support of leaving those firearms
in the hands of the offender.
Mr. Gilmour: Mr. Speaker, the law may be on the books all
right, but my understanding is that the police do not enforce it. That
is a major problem.
Speaking of the gun bill, we are going back to registration and
the government's folly that people who are going to register their
guns will not commit crimes. A criminal does not take a long gun
to rob a jewellery store. Criminals use illegal weapons.
That was the problem with the gun bill right from the beginning.
There was never a gun lobby in Canada. There is now, and the
Liberals are going to pay for it in the next election.
(1755 )
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to support of the motion of my colleague, a motion I will
read one more time for the benefit of the members. The motion is
to introduce a bill for victims' rights:
That the House urge the government to direct the Standing Committee on
Justice and Legal Affairs to proceed with the drafting of a Victim's Bill of
Rights, and that, in such areas where the Committee determines a right to be
more properly a provincial concern, the Minister of Justice initiate
consultations with the provinces aimed at arriving at a national standard for a
Victims' Bill of Rights.
It is a very well constructed motion because it takes into account
some of the points that were raised by a member a moment ago that
the jurisdiction of the federal government does not extend to all
areas. Some are under provincial control. It really requires
provincial co-operation in order to make this work. I am pleased to
note that a lot of Liberal members support this type of action. We
certainly do need a victims' bill of right.
As I listened today to the speeches and I heard the reasons why
we need this victims' bill of rights it really started to make me
think about what has led us to this point where we have to talk
about this victims' bill of rights.
What is the root cause of all this crime that has us so concerned
about our safety and the type of environment that we are in that we
have to go to this point of protecting so many victims? What is it
that has led us to this point where we have the ``Stop the Rock,''
``Get Rid of the Rock'' and the CUSJ, CAVEAT and other groups?
Why are they there? What has caused it?
Why is there graffiti all down the Sparks Street Mall that was not
there just a year ago? I see graffiti on my office building in North
Vancouver that was not there a year ago. Why is it that my parents
felt safe walking the streets at night when they were my age? It was
perfectly safe for them to let me out as child to play in the park or
to go with my friends to the local forest to play games without
having to be concerned?
Why was it safe for me to walk to school instead of the situation
you see today where every morning hundreds of thousands of
parents across Canada feel obliged to put their children in the car to
drive them maybe half a kilometre or a kilometre to their school
because they do not feel confident of the safety of their children?
How come there are drive-by shootings in Vancouver? There was
at least one here in Ottawa in the last year. There were not drive-by
shootings even five years ago. What is going on here?
Why does my wife have to be accompanied to her car in the car
park in the evening when she leaves the office when she did not
have to do that five years ago? There is something dreadfully
wrong.
The more I thought about it today as I was listening to these
speeches the more I could see that the root cause of the problem,
the reason that we are standing here today working on this victims'
bill of rights is that something terrible has happened over the last
two decades that has brought us to this point.
I challenge every member in the House to ask themselves what
has changed and they will soon come to same conclusion that I did.
It has all happened because we do not treat criminals like criminals
anymore. We have sent a message to the criminals, to the young
offenders, to all of those people out there who are destroying our
society that we owe them a living, that what they are doing is okay.
When the police come to my office building because young
people are spray painting on the side of the building they stand
back and they try to have some discussion with these young people,
these young punks just tell the police to F-off. I cannot say the
words here in the House but I think we are all familiar with the type
of contempt with which the police are treated from these types of
punks.
We have told these people by our actions is that it is okay to
spray paint on buildings. It is okay to do all these petty crimes that
increase our tolerance of crime.
Over the past 20 years or so the justice system has tended to
concentrate on this theory of rehabilitation, claiming that we really
need to get to the root cause of the crime. If we can just say to
people we love you, please be good, that they will be good. Twenty
years has shown us it does not work. With all of the examples that I
have just given, I challenge members to think of their own
examples. I hear a member on the other side saying nonsense, but
of course he does not have a wife he has to worry about going to the
car park to get to her car every day.
(1800)
I invite members to think about that. I would also like them to
think about the aggressive policing that has been taking place in
2095
New York over the last little while and the effect that longer prison
terms have had on the crime rate in that city.
It seems that perhaps a more punishment oriented system will
actually get control of the type of crime that has led us to this point
where we are asking for a victims' bill of rights.
I remind members about a police commissioner of New York,
William Bratton, who said the root of crime is criminals. If we start
to recognize that it is criminals who cause crimes and begin
addressing that problem we will reduce the number of victims
dramatically and we will not need all of the extra money, hundreds
of millions, that we a pouring into victims' rights groups to help all
the people who have become victims of these criminals.
In 1990 when Mr. Bratton was the security director for the New
York subway system, he took a hardline approach in terms of the
graffiti, loud radio playing and spitting on the sidewalk. He told his
security people that he wanted to clamp down hard on all of these
minor crimes and send a message of zero tolerance. There was an
impressive drop in serious crimes. Robberies within one year were
down 75 per cent and serious felonies were down 64 per cent in just
five years.
Mr. Bratton so impressed the people of New York that he was
subsequently elected police commissioner of New York where his
methods have resulted in a 31 per cent drop in murders, a 25 per
cent drop in car theft and a 22 per cent drop in robberies. These
improvements appear to come directly from an increased
concentration by police on minor crimes, the sorts of things that we
have come to tolerate, the graffiti, the foul language in public, all of
those minor crimes. If we would just send the message that we do
not tolerate that, we could restore some sense to our system.
Like many other members in the House, I have visited high
schools from time to time. Any time I ask high school students if
they think the Young Offenders Act needs changing, at least 99 out
of 100 students put their hands up and say the Young Offenders Act
needs changing.
When I asked them if they think they are being influenced by the
hype in the newspaper, the crimes that are reported, and really the
problem is not that bad, that they are really being influenced
emotionally and have not really thought about it, 99 out of 100 still
thought it was wrong, that it badly needs changing.
I have an article which appeared in the north shore news. It is in
the youth views section. It was written by a grade 12 student in my
riding, Sarah Duro: ``Get out of jail free is basically what the
Young Offenders Act does for youth today. Children between the
ages of 12 and 19 are protected for crimes that rank from
shoplifting to murder. The consequences for the more major crimes
are a mere slap on the wrist. It appears that young people have
special needs since they are not fully mature and should not suffer
the same consequences as adults. But surely if a child is mature
enough to take someone's life, they are mature enough to pay the
price''.
That is the sort of feeling I hear regularly in the schools. I again
challenge members across the House to think about the times they
have asked questions about justice issues in high schools. They will
know I am telling the truth about the reactions.
Sarah wrote: ``If you are committing an adult crime you should
be treated the way an adult would be treated instead of being
treated as a helpless child''. She goes on to say how they had a
discussion in her class all about the Young Offenders Act and how
the penalties should be increase.
It is my experience that students in high schools would be a lot
more harsh on their piers than we would ever be as
parliamentarians in the sorts of punishments we would propose.
(1805)
Sarah finishes by saying: ``Here is a small suggestion. Maybe
our government should start issuing a licence to kill for youths
today. Wait a minute, they already have. It's called the Young
Offenders Act''.
That is the sort of attitude youth have. The adults in my riding
are also extremely upset about the way the justice system is
operating.
In the August 29, 1995 edition of Investor's Business Daily there
was close to a full page of statistical information in an article by
John Barnes on the effects of punishment on crime rates. He headed
the piece: ``Does crime pay? Not if criminals do hard time''. I urge
members to get a copy of this article.
Mr. Barnes wrote that in 1994 University of Arizona economist
Michael Block and researcher Steven Twist compared some
victimization rates with imprisonment rates from 1960 to 1992, a
period of 32 years. They found that the ten states which had the
highest imprisonment rates experienced an 8 per cent drop in
violent crime during the period under study. In contrast, the ten
states with the lowest imprisonment rates saw their violent crime
rates jump by 51 per cent in the same period.
Very clearly incarceration does work to reduce crime. That does
not mean, as members opposite keep claiming, we need to lock up
everybody. Obviously we need to use common sense. If a person
who commits a minor crime or a robbery could be put on electronic
surveillance and be permitted to stay at work, supporting his or her
family, that would be much better than locking up that person.
However, if a person is a danger to society they really should spend
a little time behind bars, away from society.
In 20 minutes or so we will know for certain whether victims'
rights will become a reality in Canada. At that time the bells will
2096
ring, we will have a vote and the members who support victims'
rights will be on the record.
I hope the Minister of Justice takes the issue seriously. When he
votes in favour of the motion, as he said he would, I hope he takes it
seriously. When the issues goes to the Standing Committee on
Justice and Legal Affairs to draft the victims' bill of rights I hope
he will enthusiastically put his weight behind the bill. I hope he
will enthusiastically contact the appropriate people in the provinces
and work with them to put together a workable victims' bill of
rights.
I congratulate my colleague for bringing this subject to the
House today. I support the victims' bill of rights. I hope members
of the House will consider what I have said about the cause of
crime and how, if we would place a little concentration on that
aspect, we could probably reduce the need for the victims' bill of
rights.
Mr. Ovid L. Jackson (Parliamentary Secretary to President
of the Treasury Board, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, one of the greatest
things that occurs in our country are these debates. It is always
good to have points of view from all sides and not simply a narrow
point of view.
How does the member explain the demographics? I understand
that a lot of the reduction in crime in New York state is because
many of the young people who were committing crime are now
much older and when there are population shifts crime decreases. I
do not know if we can attribute that to putting a lot of people in jail.
Who does he think are the people who put graffiti on walls? As I
understand it, they often come from upper and middle class
families. It is a highly sophisticated operation. They get away from
their parents and they play games with the police. The kinds of
people my friend is talking about are not necessarily the kinds the
general population thinks.
(1810)
Mr. White (North Vancouver): Mr. Speaker, the member
mentioned that maybe the reduction in crime in New York was due
to the fact that the criminals got older. That is a very amusing way
of looking at it.
Actually, if were just people getting older, it would be a bit
difficult to explain because on the subway the drop in crime rate
occurred in one year. In New York in five years robberies were
down 75 per cent, serious felonies were down 64 per cent. Over a
one year period in New York there was a 31 per cent drop in
murders. I do not know whether these criminals are aging at 10
times the rate of everybody else, but I am surprised they were
reformed so quickly in one year.
Another point the member raised was who puts graffiti on walls.
I do not know why he said it is the children of wealthy families who
do this. What difference does it make who the criminals are? I
could not care less and I am sure most people in Canada could not
care less whether criminals come from wealthy or poor families. If
they are criminals, they are criminals. Saying we will not touch
them because they are from a wealthy home or because they are
from a poor home is a ridiculous way to approach crime.
If someone is putting graffiti on a wall they should be
appropriately treated. That means taking action which discourages
them from ever putting graffiti on a wall again.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier-Montcalm, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, under cover of a motion that is, after all, fairly ordinary,
we immediately recognize the hon. members' pet themes: young
offenders; licence to kill-it is rather odd to hear that in Canada;
violent crime; shocking statistics; example setting sentences;
jailing people is never enough; the length of sentences, lock them
up for as long as possible, get rid of them.
I think the discourse of the Reformers is rather difficult to
follow. These are the same Reformers who voted against firearms
registration, when we know that the most violent crimes, the most
odious crimes, the ones most often reported in the sort of
sensational newspapers the Reformers read, are crimes committed
with firearms. It is rather odd coming from members of Parliament,
but it is par for the course from Reformers. They are hard to
understand.
I would like to say to the Reformers that we, in Quebec, looked
at these questions at least thirty years ago, and again last year
during the hearings on the future of Quebec. People from
throughout Quebec came to tell us that in a sovereign Quebec there
should be a charter on the rights and responsibilities of taxpayers. It
was good for criminals, victims, youth, seniors, taxpayers, the
unemployed and workers. We needed a charter that would lay it all
out.
It is true that, in addition to rights, citizens also have obligations.
This must be recognized, and perhaps put down in writing, if
necessary, but it must be done. The first step is to reflect on the
question, give the problem some thought. What is not needed is
inflammatory speeches and statistics out of context.
That being said, if the hon. member wishes to give it the time,
and that is the question, should he not be thinking about prevention
and rehabilitation, with due regard for jurisdiction?
[English]
Mr. White (North Vancouver): Mr. Speaker, the member is
obviously completely satisfied that there are no crime problems in
Canada today, no crime problems in his riding. His wife, his
children, his friends and family are completely safe on the streets at
night. There is no graffiti in his riding. It sounds like he should start
advertising a big tourist trade there: come to the safest place in
Canada, no graffiti, no crime, nothing to worry about, we are in
2097
paradise. It is not like that at all. I can see that it is a complete waste
of time trying to work on changing his opinion.
The Deputy Speaker: It being 6.15 p.m., it is my duty to
interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question
necessary to dispose of the business of supply.
[Translation]
Is the House ready for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Deputy Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the
motion?
Some hon. members: Yes.
Some hon. members: No.
The Deputy Speaker: All those in favour will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Deputy Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Deputy Speaker: In my opinion the yeas have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Deputy Speaker: Call in the members.
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
(Division No. 46)
YEAS
Members
Ablonczy
Alcock
Anderson
Assad
Augustine
Axworthy (Saskatoon-Clark's Crossing)
Axworthy (Winnipeg South Centre/Sud-Centre)
Bakopanos
Barnes
Bélair
Bélanger
Benoit
Bertrand
Bevilacqua
Bhaduria
Blaikie
Bodnar
Bonin
Boudria
Brown (Calgary Southeast/Sud-Est)
Brown (Oakville-Milton)
Brushett
Bryden
Byrne
Calder
Campbell
Cannis
Catterall
Chamberlain
Chan
Clancy
Cohen
Collenette
Comuzzi
Cowling
Crawford
Cullen
Cummins
Dingwall
Dion
Dromisky
Duncan
Easter
Eggleton
English
Epp
Fewchuk
Finestone
Finlay
Fontana
Forseth
Fry
Gaffney
Gagliano
Gagnon (Bonaventure-Îles-de-la-Madeleine)
Gallaway
Gerrard
Gilmour
Goodale
Grey (Beaver River)
Grose
Grubel
Guarnieri
Harb
Harper (Calgary West/Ouest)
Harper (Churchill)
Harper (Simcoe Centre)
Hart
Harvard
Hayes
Hermanson
Hickey
Hill (Macleod)
Hopkins
Irwin
Jackson
Jordan
Karygiannis
Keyes
Kirkby
Knutson
Lastewka
LeBlanc (Cape/Cap-Breton Highlands-Canso)
Lee
Lincoln
MacAulay
MacLellan (Cape/Cap-Breton-The Sydneys)
Maloney
Manley
Marleau
Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca)
Massé
Mayfield
McClelland (Edmonton Southwest/Sud-Ouest)
McCormick
McKinnon
McLaughlin
McTeague
McWhinney
Meredith
Mifflin
Milliken
Mills (Red Deer)
Minna
Mitchell
Murphy
Murray
Nault
O'Brien (Labrador)
O'Reilly
Patry
Payne
Peric
Peters
Peterson
Pickard (Essex-Kent)
Pillitteri
Proud
Reed
Regan
Richardson
Ringma
Robichaud
Robillard
Robinson
Rock
Schmidt
Scott (Fredericton-York-Sunbury)
Serré
Shepherd
Sheridan
Silye
Simmons
Solberg
Solomon
Speaker
Speller
Steckle
Stewart (Brant)
Stewart (Northumberland)
Strahl
Szabo
Taylor
Telegdi
Thompson
Torsney
Ur
Vanclief
Verran
Whelan
White (Fraser Valley West/Ouest)
White (North Vancouver)
Wood
Zed-154
NAYS
Members
Bachand
Bélisle
Bellehumeur
Bernier (Gaspé)
Chrétien (Frontenac)
Dalphond-Guiral
de Savoye
Duceppe
Fillion
Gauthier
Godin
Guimond
Jacob
Lalonde
Landry
Langlois
Lavigne (Beauharnois-Salaberry)
Lefebvre
Nunez
Picard (Drummond)
Rocheleau
Sauvageau
Tremblay (Rimouski-Témiscouata)
Venne-24
PAIRED MEMBERS
Allmand
Arseneault
Assadourian
Asselin
Bergeron
Bernier (Mégantic-Compton-Stanstead)
Brien
Canuel
Caron
Cauchon
Collins
Crête
Daviault
Debien
Deshaies
DeVillers
Discepola
Dubé
Duhamel
Dumas
Dupuy
Gagnon (Québec)
Godfrey
Graham
2098
Guay
Kraft Sloan
Laurin
Leblanc (Longueuil)
Leroux (Richmond-Wolfe)
Leroux (Shefford)
Loney
Loubier
Martin (LaSalle-Émard)
McGuire
McLellan (Edmonton Northwest/Nord-Ouest)
Ménard
Mercier
O'Brien (London-Middlesex)
Pagtakhan
Paradis
Paré
Parrish
Pettigrew
Phinney
Pomerleau
Rideout
Skoke
St-Laurent
St. Denis
Tremblay (Lac-Saint-Jean)
Tremblay (Rosemont)
Valeri
(1845)
The Deputy Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
* * *
The House resumed from April 26, 1996, consideration of the
motion that Bill C-31, an act to implement certain provisions of the
budget tabled in Parliament on March 6, 1996, be read the second
time and referred to a committee, as well as the amendment and the
amendment to the amendment.
The Deputy Speaker: The House will now proceed to the taking
of the deferred division on the amendment to the amendment
standing in the name of Mr. LeBlanc (Longueuil) at second reading
of Bill C-31.
[English]
Mr. Boudria: Mr. Speaker, if you were to seek it, perhaps the
House would give its unanimous consent that all members who
voted on the previous motion be recorded as having voted on the
motion now before the House. Liberal members will vote nay on
the amendment to the amendment.
[Translation]
Mrs. Dalphond-Guiral: Mr. Speaker, members of the official
opposition will vote yea on the amendment to the amendment.
[English]
Mr. Ringma: Mr. Speaker, I believe you will find that most
Reformers will vote yes to the amendment to the amendment,
except those who might wish to vote otherwise.
Mr. Solomon: Mr. Speaker, members of the NDP in the House
today vote yes on the amendment to the amendment.
Mr. Bhaduria: Mr. Speaker, I will be voting against.
[Translation]
(The House divided on the amendment to the amendment, which
was negatived on the following division:)
(Division No. 47)
YEAS
Members
Ablonczy
Axworthy (Saskatoon-Clark's Crossing)
Bachand
Bélisle
Bellehumeur
Benoit
Bernier (Gaspé)
Blaikie
Brown (Calgary Southeast/Sud-Est)
Chrétien (Frontenac)
Cummins
Dalphond-Guiral
de Savoye
Duceppe
Duncan
Epp
Fillion
Forseth
Gauthier
Gilmour
Godin
Grey (Beaver River)
Grubel
Guimond
Harper (Calgary West/Ouest)
Harper (Simcoe Centre)
Hart
Hayes
Hermanson
Hill (Macleod)
Jacob
Lalonde
Landry
Langlois
Lavigne (Beauharnois-Salaberry)
Lefebvre
Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca)
Mayfield
McClelland (Edmonton Southwest/Sud-Ouest)
McLaughlin
Meredith
Mills (Red Deer)
Nunez
Picard (Drummond)
Ringma
Robinson
Rocheleau
Sauvageau
Schmidt
Silye
Solberg
Solomon
Speaker
Strahl
Taylor
Thompson
Tremblay (Rimouski-Témiscouata)
Venne
White (Fraser Valley West/Ouest)
White (North Vancouver)-60
NAYS
Members
Alcock
Anderson
Assad
Augustine
Axworthy (Winnipeg South Centre/Sud-Centre)
Bakopanos
Barnes
Bélair
Bélanger
Bertrand
Bevilacqua
Bhaduria
Bodnar
Bonin
Boudria
Brown (Oakville-Milton)
Brushett
Bryden
Byrne
Calder
Campbell
Cannis
Catterall
Chamberlain
Chan
Clancy
Cohen
Collenette
Comuzzi
Cowling
Crawford
Cullen
Dingwall
Dion
Dromisky
Easter
Eggleton
English
Fewchuk
Finestone
Finlay
Fontana
Fry
Gaffney
Gagliano
Gagnon (Bonaventure-Îles-de-la-Madeleine)
Gallaway
Gerrard
Goodale
Grose
Guarnieri
Harb
Harper (Churchill)
Harvard
Hickey
Hopkins
Irwin
Jackson
Jordan
Karygiannis
Keyes
Kirkby
Knutson
Lastewka
LeBlanc (Cape/Cap-Breton Highlands-Canso)
Lee
Lincoln
MacAulay
MacLellan (Cape/Cap-Breton-The Sydneys)
Maloney
Manley
Marleau
Massé
McCormick
McKinnon
McTeague
2099
McWhinney
Mifflin
Milliken
Minna
Mitchell
Murphy
Murray
Nault
O'Brien (Labrador)
O'Reilly
Patry
Payne
Peric
Peters
Peterson
Pickard (Essex-Kent)
Pillitteri
Proud
Reed
Regan
Richardson
Robichaud
Robillard
Rock
Scott (Fredericton-York-Sunbury)
Serré
Shepherd
Sheridan
Simmons
Speller
Steckle
Stewart (Brant)
Stewart (Northumberland)
Szabo
Telegdi
Torsney
Ur
Vanclief
Verran
Whelan
Wood
Zed-118
PAIRED MEMBERS
Allmand
Arseneault
Assadourian
Asselin
Bergeron
Bernier (Mégantic-Compton-Stanstead)
Brien
Canuel
Caron
Cauchon
Collins
Crête
Daviault
Debien
Deshaies
DeVillers
Discepola
Dubé
Duhamel
Dumas
Dupuy
Gagnon (Québec)
Godfrey
Graham
Guay
Kraft Sloan
Laurin
Leblanc (Longueuil)
Leroux (Richmond-Wolfe)
Leroux (Shefford)
Loney
Loubier
Martin (LaSalle-Émard)
McGuire
McLellan (Edmonton Northwest/Nord-Ouest)
Ménard
Mercier
O'Brien (London-Middlesex)
Pagtakhan
Paradis
Paré
Parrish
Pettigrew
Phinney
Pomerleau
Rideout
Skoke
St-Laurent
St. Denis
Tremblay (Lac-Saint-Jean)
Tremblay (Rosemont)
Valeri
The Deputy Speaker: I declare the amendment to the
amendment negatived.
The next question is on the amendment.
Mr. Boudria: Mr. Speaker, if you were to seek unanimous
consent, I believe the House would be disposed to taking the vote
on the previous motion and applying it, as is, to the motion
presently before the House.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
[Editor's Note: See List under Division No. 47.]
[English]
The Deputy Speaker: I declare the amendment lost.
The next question is on the main motion.
Mr. Boudria: Mr. Speaker, if you were to seek unanimous
consent, I believe the House would be disposed to take the vote
applied to the previous motion and reverse the result and apply it to
the motion presently before the House.
(1850 )
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
(Division No. 48)
YEAS
Members
Alcock
Anderson
Assad
Augustine
Axworthy (Winnipeg South Centre/Sud-Centre)
Bakopanos
Barnes
Bélair
Bélanger
Bertrand
Bevilacqua
Bhaduria
Bodnar
Bonin
Boudria
Brown (Oakville-Milton)
Brushett
Bryden
Byrne
Calder
Campbell
Cannis
Catterall
Chamberlain
Chan
Clancy
Cohen
Collenette
Comuzzi
Cowling
Crawford
Cullen
Dingwall
Dion
Dromisky
Easter
Eggleton
English
Fewchuk
Finestone
Finlay
Fontana
Fry
Gaffney
Gagliano
Gagnon (Bonaventure-Îles-de-la-Madeleine)
Gallaway
Gerrard
Goodale
Grose
Guarnieri
Harb
Harper (Churchill)
Harvard
Hickey
Hopkins
Irwin
Jackson
Jordan
Karygiannis
Keyes
Kirkby
Knutson
Lastewka
LeBlanc (Cape/Cap-Breton Highlands-Canso)
Lee
Lincoln
MacAulay
MacLellan (Cape/Cap-Breton-The Sydneys)
Maloney
Manley
Marleau
Massé
McCormick
McKinnon
McTeague
McWhinney
Mifflin
Milliken
Minna
Mitchell
Murphy
Murray
Nault
O'Brien (Labrador)
O'Reilly
Patry
Payne
Peric
Peters
Peterson
Pickard (Essex-Kent)
Pillitteri
Proud
Reed
Regan
Richardson
Robichaud
Robillard
Rock
Scott (Fredericton-York-Sunbury)
Serré
Shepherd
Sheridan
Simmons
Speller
Steckle
Stewart (Brant)
Stewart (Northumberland)
Szabo
Telegdi
Torsney
Ur
Vanclief
Verran
Whelan
Wood
Zed-118
2100
NAYS
Members
Ablonczy
Axworthy (Saskatoon-Clark's Crossing)
Bachand
Bélisle
Bellehumeur
Benoit
Bernier (Gaspé)
Blaikie
Brown (Calgary Southeast/Sud-Est)
Chrétien (Frontenac)
Cummins
Dalphond-Guiral
de Savoye
Duceppe
Duncan
Epp
Fillion
Forseth
Gauthier
Gilmour
Godin
Grey (Beaver River)
Grubel
Guimond
Harper (Calgary West/Ouest)
Harper (Simcoe Centre)
Hart
Hayes
Hermanson
Hill (Macleod)
Jacob
Lalonde
Landry
Langlois
Lavigne (Beauharnois-Salaberry)
Lefebvre
Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca)
Mayfield
McClelland (Edmonton Southwest/Sud-Ouest)
McLaughlin
Meredith
Mills (Red Deer)
Nunez
Picard (Drummond)
Ringma
Robinson
Rocheleau
Sauvageau
Schmidt
Silye
Solberg
Solomon
Speaker
Strahl
Taylor
Thompson
Tremblay (Rimouski-Témiscouata)
Venne
White (Fraser Valley West/Ouest)
White (North Vancouver)-60
PAIRED MEMBERS
Allmand
Arseneault
Assadourian
Asselin
Bergeron
Bernier (Mégantic-Compton-Stanstead)
Brien
Canuel
Caron
Cauchon
Collins
Crête
Daviault
Debien
Deshaies
DeVillers
Discepola
Dubé
Duhamel
Dumas
Dupuy
Gagnon (Québec)
Godfrey
Graham
Guay
Kraft Sloan
Laurin
Leblanc (Longueuil)
Leroux (Richmond-Wolfe)
Leroux (Shefford)
Loney
Loubier
Martin (LaSalle-Émard)
McGuire
McLellan (Edmonton Northwest/Nord-Ouest)
Ménard
Mercier
O'Brien (London-Middlesex)
Pagtakhan
Paradis
Paré
Parrish
Pettigrew
Phinney
Pomerleau
Rideout
Skoke
St-Laurent
St. Denis
Tremblay (Lac-Saint-Jean)
Tremblay (Rosemont)
Valeri
The Deputy Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
(Bill read the second time and referred to a committee.)
2100
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[
English]
The House resumed from Friday, April 26 consideration of the
motion that Bill C-216, an act to amend the Broadcasting Act
(broadcasting policy), be read the second time and referred to a
committee.
The Deputy Speaker: The House will now proceed to the taking
of the deferred recorded division on the motion at second reading
stage of Bill C-216, an act to amend the Broadcasting Act
(broadcasting policy).
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
(Division No. 49)
YEAS
Members
Ablonczy
Alcock
Anderson
Assad
Augustine
Axworthy (Saskatoon-Clark's Crossing)
Axworthy (Winnipeg South Centre/Sud-Centre)
Bakopanos
Barnes
Bélair
Bélanger
Benoit
Bertrand
Bevilacqua
Bhaduria
Blaikie
Bodnar
Bonin
Boudria
Brown (Calgary Southeast/Sud-Est)
Brown (Oakville-Milton)
Brushett
Bryden
Byrne
Calder
Campbell
Cannis
Catterall
Chamberlain
Chan
Clancy
Cohen
Collenette
Comuzzi
Cowling
Crawford
Cullen
Dingwall
Dion
Dromisky
Duncan
Easter
Eggleton
English
Epp
Fewchuk
Finestone
Finlay
Fontana
Forseth
Fry
Gaffney
Gagliano
Gagnon (Bonaventure-Îles-de-la-Madeleine)
Gallaway
Gerrard
Gilmour
Goodale
Grey (Beaver River)
Grose
Guarnieri
Harb
Harper (Calgary West/Ouest)
Harper (Churchill)
Harper (Simcoe Centre)
Hart
Harvard
Hayes
Hermanson
Hickey
Hill (Macleod)
Hopkins
Irwin
Jackson
Jordan
Karygiannis
Keyes
Kirkby
Knutson
Lastewka
LeBlanc (Cape/Cap-Breton Highlands-Canso)
Lee
Lincoln
MacAulay
MacLellan (Cape/Cap-Breton-The Sydneys)
Maloney
Marleau
Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca)
Massé
McClelland (Edmonton Southwest/Sud-Ouest)
McCormick
McKinnon
McLaughlin
McTeague
McWhinney
Meredith
Mifflin
Milliken
Mills (Red Deer)
Minna
Mitchell
Murphy
Murray
Nault
O'Brien (Labrador)
O'Reilly
Patry
Payne
Peric
Peters
2101
Peterson
Pickard (Essex-Kent)
Pillitteri
Proud
Reed
Regan
Richardson
Ringma
Robichaud
Robillard
Robinson
Rock
Schmidt
Scott (Fredericton-York-Sunbury)
Serré
Shepherd
Sheridan
Simmons
Solberg
Solomon
Speaker
Speller
Steckle
Stewart (Brant)
Stewart (Northumberland)
Strahl
Szabo
Taylor
Telegdi
Torsney
Ur
Vanclief
Verran
Whelan
White (Fraser Valley West/Ouest)
Wood
Zed-147
NAYS
Members
Bachand
Bélisle
Bellehumeur
Bernier (Gaspé)
Chrétien (Frontenac)
Dalphond-Guiral
de Savoye
Duceppe
Fillion
Gauthier
Grubel
Guimond
Jacob
Lalonde
Lavigne (Beauharnois-Salaberry)
Lefebvre
Mayfield
Nunez
Picard (Drummond)
Rocheleau
Sauvageau
Silye
Thompson
Venne
White (North Vancouver)-25
PAIRED MEMBERS
Allmand
Arseneault
Assadourian
Asselin
Bergeron
Bernier (Mégantic-Compton-Stanstead)
Brien
Canuel
Caron
Cauchon
Collins
Crête
Daviault
Debien
Deshaies
DeVillers
Discepola
Dubé
Duhamel
Dumas
Dupuy
Gagnon (Québec)
Godfrey
Graham
Guay
Kraft Sloan
Laurin
Leblanc (Longueuil)
Leroux (Richmond-Wolfe)
Leroux (Shefford)
Loney
Loubier
Martin (LaSalle-Émard)
McGuire
McLellan (Edmonton Northwest/Nord-Ouest)
Ménard
Mercier
O'Brien (London-Middlesex)
Pagtakhan
Paradis
Paré
Parrish
Pettigrew
Phinney
Pomerleau
Rideout
Skoke
St-Laurent
St. Denis
Tremblay (Lac-Saint-Jean)
Tremblay (Rosemont)
Valeri
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to a
committee.)
[English]
The House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m.
(The House adjourned at 6.58 p.m.)