TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE
THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT
LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT:
Review of the Commercial Radio Policy
/
Examen de la Politique sur la radio
commerciale
HELD AT:
TENUE À:
Westin Edmonton Hotel
l'Hôtel Westin Edmonton
10135 100th Street
10135, 100e rue
Edmonton, Alberta
Edmonton (Alberta)
June 22, 2006
Le 22 juin 2006
Transcripts
In order to meet the requirements of
the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings
before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the
listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public
hearings, and the Table of
Contents.
However, the aforementioned
publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is
taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages,
depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the
public hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de
la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour
le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la
page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC
participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des
matières.
Toutefois, la publication
susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en
tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre
des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la
langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience
publique.
Canadian Radio‑television and
Telecommunications Commission
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes
Transcript / Transcription
Review of the
Commercial Radio Policy /
Examen de la
Politique sur la radio commerciale
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Michel Arpin
Chairperson / Président
Barbara Cram
Commissioner / Conseillère
Rita Cugini
Commissioner / Conseillère
Ronald Williams
Commissioner / Conseiller
Stuart Langford
Commissioner / Conseiller
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI
PRÉSENTS:
Chantal Boulet
Secretary / Secrétaire
Joe Aguiar
Hearing Manager /
Gérant de l'audience
Anne-Marie Murphy/
Legal Counsel /
Shari Fisher
Conseillères juridiques
HELD AT:
TENUE À:
Westin Edmonton Hotel
l'Hôtel Westin Edmonton
10135 100th Street
10135, 100e rue
Edmonton, Alberta
Edmonton (Alberta)
June 22, 2006
Le 22 juin 2006
TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE / PARA
PHASE I (Cont.)
PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION
PAR:
Harvard Broadcasting Inc.
1028 / 6201
King's Kids Promotions Outreach Ministries
Inc. 1082 /
6572
Newcap Inc.
1161 / 7004
Radio CJVR Ltd.
1200 / 7187
Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc.
1264 / 7533
PHASE III
INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION
PAR:
Aboriginal People's Television Network
1351 / 8355
PHASE IV
REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:
Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc.
1364 / 8431
Radio CJVR Ltd.
1364 / 8438
Newcap Inc.
1365 / 8445
King's Kids Promotions Outreach Ministries
Inc. 1366 /
8453
Harvard Broadcasting Inc.
1367 / 8462
Vista Radio Ltd.
1369 / 8475
1182743 Alberta Ltd.
1370 / 8484
Edmonton, Alberta / Edmonton (Alberta)
‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Thursday, June
22, 2006
at 0830 / L'audience reprend
le jeudi
22 juin 2006 à
0830
6195
THE CHAIRPERSON: Order,
please. Good morning,
everybody.
6196
We will now start with the following item. Madam Secretary.
6197
THE SECRETARY: Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
6198
Good morning, everyone. We
will now proceed with Item 15 on the Agenda, which is an application by Harvard
Broadcasting Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial
radio programming undertaking in Fort McMurray.
6199
The new station would operate on frequency 103.7 MHz, channel 279B, with
an effective radiated power of 20,000 watts, non‑directional antenna/antenna
height of 54 metres. Appearing for
the applicant is Mr. Paul Hill who will introduce his colleagues. You will then have 20 minutes for your
presentation.
6200
Please go ahead.
PRESENTATION /
PRÉSENTATION
6201
MR. COWIE: Good morning,
Mr. Chairman and Members of the Commission. My name is Bruce Cowie, and I Am the
Vice President of Harvard Broadcasting.
I am pleased to be here today to present our application for MIX 103.7, a
new Adult Contemporary FM station targeting the 18 to 54 year old demographic in
the fastest growing city in Canada, Fort McMurray.
6202
Before beginning our presentation, I would like to introduce the members
of our panel.
6203
Seated on my right, is Michael Olstrom, Harvard's Station Group
Manager. Seated next to Michael is
Karen Broderick, Harvard's National Sales Manager.
6204
On my left is Daryl Holien, Harvard's Director of FM Programming and
Creative Services. Daryl has been
in the radio business for 30 years, having served in every facet of the business
from on‑air, production and programming.
As part of his current responsibilities, Daryl programs Harvard's Lite
92 FM in Regina.
6205
Next to Daryl is William Alexander, a Senior Manager with the
proposed MIX 103.7. William is of First Nations descent and
has strong ties to the Southern Saskatchewan First Nations community. He played a key role in the licensing
and launch of CREEK‑FM, a community station located on Okanese First Nation
north of Regina. Prior to
overseeing the operations of that station, William worked at Harvard
Broadcasting and we are delighted that he has agreed to re‑join our team to
serve as Senior Manager of MIX 103.7, if our application is
approved.
6206
In the back row, beginning on my far right is Debra McLaughlin of
Strategic Inc., the company that did our feasibility and consumer demand
study. Next to Debra is Rob
Malcolmson, a partner at Goodmans LLP, our legal counsel. Next to Rob is Tina Svedhal, Vice
President Investments for Harvard Developments Inc., our parent
company.
6207
Finally, on my left in the back row is Paul Hill, President and CEO of
Harvard Developments Ltd. Mr. Hill
is one of Canada's business leaders and operates a family‑owned, diversified
company that has just celebrated 103 years of doing business in Western
Canada. The success of the Hill
companies has been built on two principles ‑‑ caring and commitment ‑‑
principles which guide not only our business operations but our attitude and
social activities in the communities the Hill family
serves.
6208
Paul will speak to you about why Harvard has chosen to apply for a new
station in Fort McMurray, and how MIX 103.7 fits into our regional growth
strategy.
6209
Debra will then give an overview of the rapidly growing Fort McMurray
market and the extraordinarily high demand for the format we
propose.
6210
Karen will speak to the demand for advertisers, and then Michael,
Daryl and William will describe the station in more detail, including
its target audience, and the kind of programming we
are proposing.
6211
Finally, I will present our locally‑focused CTD package and our plans for
an innovative partnership with the Aboriginal Peoples' Television
Network.
6212
Paul..."
6213
MR. HILL: Thank you,
Bruce.
6214
As the Commission knows, Harvard has been in the broadcasting business
since 1976 and we have been proud and honoured to serve the residents of Regina
and Southern Saskatchewan ever since.
In the recent Commercial Radio Policy Review the Commission heard from
Harvard and others on the importance of diversity in the broadcast
system.
6215
There was a consistent view put forward that independent broadcasters
play a critical role in providing balance and reflecting regional
differenceS. We are here today
because we strongly believe that at the end of a period marked
by considerable consolidation, there is an even greater need to expand
the role for smaller and mid‑size owners.
6216
Harvard meets that need.
6217
We also offer a wealth of practical experience. We operate in a market that has gone
through ownership changes. We have
weathered economic downturns and shifts in formats. Through it all we have maintained our
focus. Our audiences stay tuned to
us because of our strong connection to the communities we
serve.
6218
CKRM for example has defied all predictions about the demise of AM and
remains a strong contributor to southern Saskatchewan
life.
6219
We feel we can do more in the radio business and seek your approval to
expand our contribution to Fort McMurray.
6220
As the Commission is aware, our goal is to grow Harvard's radio presence
in western Canada. In furtherance of this objective, we appeared before you
earlier this year seeking a licence in Calgary.
6221
Fort McMurray represents another key market for our regional growth
strategy. Harvard already plays a
role in Fort McMurray. Our parent
company, Harvard Developments, is a major investor in the city's real estate
development and housing sector.
Another Hill company, Harvard Energy, has recently made a significant
investment in the oil sands and plans to play a major role in Fort McMurray's
booming oil extraction sector. We
know from experience in the area that the city is under served and can support a
new radio station.
6222
We hope the Commission will consider our unique qualifications and
experience and recognize the role we can play in adding to diversity of
ownership and editorial voices. We
ask you to approve our plan for Fort McMurray and allow us to extend our
tradition of community service with the launch of
MIX 103.7.
Debra.
6223
MS McLAUGHLIN: Fort McMurray
meets all the tests for a new licence:
It's growing, it's wealthy and it's critically under served by local
radio stations. Advertisers would
like more options and consumers demand more
choice.
6224
Furthermore, there is clear gap in the formats that are being
offered. The number one "most
listened to" music format in Canada, Adult Contemporary, is missing from the
Fort McMurray radio spectrum. Given
this clear gap, it came as no surprise that we found a predictably high degree
of consumer demand for the proposed format.
6225
It's no exaggeration to say that the city is growing at an explosive
rate. Its population has grown
9 percent from 2004, according to a municipal Census conducted in 2005, and
is projected to rise an astounding 4 percent in the next 16 months,
according to Financial Post Canadian Demographics.
6226
This outpaces the growth of any other market in Canada. Moreover, fully 90 percent of Fort
McMurray's population is below the age of 55, with over half between the ages of
25‑54.
6227
Significantly, only 25 percent of the respondents to our research
reported that they were satisfied with the current choices of radio stations in
Fort McMurray. In fact, about
two‑thirds of them listed a radio station from outside of the market as the
service they spend the most time with.
Based on a market survey of people aged 18 to 54, we found that fully
89 percent stated that they would definitely or probably listen to a new
Adult Contemporary radio station.
And it's noteworthy that interest in this format was found at both ends
of the 18 to 54 demographic.
6228
Currently there are only two commercial radio stations in the market, a
Rock and a Country format. What is
clearly missing is a service that provides a broader range of popular music and
balances the market with a station that appeals to a female
audience.
6229
MS BRODERICK: Two factors
bode well for advertising sales in Fort McMurray. First, the growth of the city is fuelled
by the oil and gas industry. For
every one job created in the oil sands, it is estimated that three more jobs are
created in the region. And
developments in the oil sands industry alone will represent 60,000 jobs in the
next 15 years. With that
population growth comes more construction and development, in both the
residential and retail sectors.
6230
Second, Fort McMurray is a very wealthy community. Over half the households in the city
boast annual incomes of over $100,000, fully 56 percent above the national
average and well above the average household incomes of large urban centres like
Calgary, Toronto and Edmonton.
6231
The Strategic study found that media buyers were enthusiastic about the
prospect of another radio station in Fort McMurray. With the Canadian Real Estate
Association estimating that the number of retail outlets will increase by
50 percent in the next three years, we expect that advertising and retail
spending will grow accordingly.
6232
In the past year alone, retail sales in Fort McMurray have grown from 249
million, or 54 percent below the national average, to 771 million or
19 percent above the national average. This dramatic expansion of the retail
base, combined with the demand in the marketplace, means that more radio
advertising dollars will be available to all stations in the
market.
6233
Michael...?
6234
MR. OLSTROM: Thank you,
Karen.
6235
MIX 103.7 will be an Adult Contemporary service that plays a popular mix
of currently charting music, recurrent selections and tracks from the '8Os and
'90s. About 70 percent of the
playlist will be drawn from the AC format, while 30 percent will come from
the Pop charts. The draw from two
charts will provide a more diverse selection of music, while focusing on artists
largely unheard on local services.
6236
The Strategic study identified variety as the single most important
element of the programming mix among Fort McMurray residents. Providing a mix of AC and Pop will meet
that demand. More selection also
means less repetition and greater distinction from existing
services.
6237
The AC and Pop genres feature a wide range of new and emerging artists,
something Fort McMurray residents have told us that they want, AC artists like
Jully Black, DB Clifford, Amanda Stott, Collette Baron Reid and Pop artists like
Mobile, Be Good Tanyas, City and Colour, Ron Sexsmith and Tomi Swick. They will be showcased throughout our
regular playlist.
6238
Our commitment to new and emerging artists is significant, representing
fully 25 percent of our 40 percent Canadian
content.
6239
In addition to differentiating ourselves with respect to the format, we
note that both the Rock and Country formats often have a male skew. So we see a prime opportunity to
introduce a format that appeals to the female portion of the
population.
6240
Furthermore, Harvard continues to recognize the need to provide services
to a younger audience to ensure radio's place in their media choices as they
age. So after 8:00 p.m. MIX
103.7 will shift slightly younger, providing an increased emphasis on music
drawn from the Pop charts. After
8:00 p.m. there will be a shift in spoken word, music and, yes, even
advertiser content that will let us address the interests of a younger
demographic.
6241
William...?
6242
MR. ALEXANDER: One of the
programming elements that was given great importance by the respondents to
the Strategic study, and has been confirmed in the research of many of the
other applicants, is news. Local,
Canadian and international news scored almost 90 percent across each
category. Harvard has, therefore,
made news an important part of the programming day. We will offer 15 hours and
53 minutes of news and information programming per
week.
6243
Our plan is to be highly focused on community‑level news and develop a
strong identity as an intensely local Fort McMurray radio service, with
comprehensive news, weather and sports coverage of the Fort McMurray and Wood
Buffalo areas.
6244
In response to the importance of weather, our forecasts on MIX 103.7 will
accompany each newscast. Each hour
will have a minimum of two more weather forecasts as announcer
surveillance.
6245
In addition to sports coverage that will air as part of each newscast,
MIX 103.7 will also create the "Fort McMurray Sports Spotlight", a one‑minute
feature focusing on local sports, including hockey, baseball and high school
athletics and airing four times daily.
6246
Finally, MIX 103.7 will offer a news and information program called
the "Noon Report", a half‑hour, in‑depth forum on current events in the
area. This expanded news program
will feature interviews with local newsmakers and provide the time to look
behind the headlines. Running
Monday to Friday, the "Noon Report" will fill the very real demand for
local news and will be a new voice in local coverage.
6247
Daryl...?
6248
MR. HOLIEN: We are also
planning a balanced mix of feature programming for the station, two of which
will make a very tangible contribution to Canadian Talent
Development.
6249
Six times daily the MIX 103.7 "Showcase" will feature new Canadian
artists, with a particular focus on artists from Alberta and the Fort McMurray
area. The segment will include a
short artist biography or interview, 90‑seconds in length, followed by a
featured song. This will both
maximize the exposure for the artist and provide our core audience with the
innovative programming mix they demand.
6250
MIX 103.7 will also place special emphasis on Canadian and regional AC
and Pop artists through a one‑hour Canadian Spotlight feature that will air
twice weekly and will showcase new Canadian talent to our audience. We know that there is a strong appetite
for new music and this feature programming will provide an opportunity for those
wishing to expand their musical horizons.
6251
MR. ALEXANDER: In addition
to these shows, which highlight and expose Canadian talent, MIX 103.7 will
feature other information programming of value to its
listeners.
6252
These include the twice‑daily "Business Report", which will give our
audience an overview of the day's trading in world markets and any changes in
the corporate world that affect the Fort McMurray and Wood Buffalo
region.
6253
Our "Recreational Reports" will provide outdoor enthusiasts with timely
updates twice daily from Monday through Friday and three times daily on the
weekend.
6254
Our "Community Calendar" will also air twice per day, to keep listeners
informed on regional festivals, indigenous and other cultural celebrations,
charity events and volunteer opportunities.
6255
And "Fort McMurray Moments" will recognize the rich and colourful
heritage of the area by packaging, in a one‑minute feature, details about the
Wood Buffalo region that will inform and entertain listeners. There are at least five First Nation
groups living in this area and, in addition to indigenous cultures, the city is
home to first and second generation ethnic groups from around the
world.
6256
While maybe not as diverse as major markets to the south, Fort McMurray
has a strong French, Chinese and East Indian presence. "Fort McMurray Moments" will draw on all
of these influences with community reflection that will air twice daily during
the week.
6257
To ensure that our programming remains relevant to and reflective of the
local community, MIX 103.7 will establish a local advisory committee who will
ensure we are addressing issues of unique concern to Fort
McMurray.
6258
Six prominent members of the Fort McMurray community have agreed to serve
on our local advisory committee. A
list of our local advisory committee members is attached as Schedule A to this
presentation. Like me, they are all
anxious to get to work on bringing a new voice and sound to the residents of
Fort McMurray.
6259
Now that you have heard all about MIX 103.7, let's sample its sound
and hear from the Fort McMurray audience we seek to serve.
‑‑‑ Video presentation /
Présentation vidéo
6260
MR. COWIE: Mr. Chairman, I
will conclude our presentation by outlining our plans for Canadian Talent
Development.
6261
Harvard is committing $700,000 over seven years to foster Canadian Talent
Development in the Fort McMurray area.
6262
This funding will go to three initiatives:
6263
First, Harvard will sponsor performances at the annual Interplay Visual
and Performing Arts Festival.
Harvard's contribution of $40,000 per year for seven years will be
directed 100 percent to artists.
6264
Second, Harvard will contribute $40,000 annually for scholarships to
students studying in the visual and performing arts program at Keyano
College, a community college that serves over 10,000 students. Specifically, four annual scholarships
of $10,000 each will be awarded to students demonstrating merit and financial
need.
6265
Finally, Harvard will donate $20,000 per year for seven years to a
Local Broadcast Centre, VoicePrint Canada.
This funding will provide the National Broadcast Reading Service with the
means to train and develop "on‑air" readers and develop writers in the art of
broadcast description. Harvard's
contribution will be directed in particular to the training of Aboriginal on‑air
readers and writers.
6266
In addition to these direct CTD initiatives, we will invest in an
innovative talent development program for Aboriginal broadcasters. In partnership with APTN, Harvard will
offer a news mentoring program in which it will accept and train one person from
the local Aboriginal community each year in news
reporting.
6267
The ultimate goal of this initiative is to provide hands-on training and broadcast experience
to persons who might not otherwise have access to entry level positions and yet
have a real passion for and career aspirations that include
news.
6268
The President and CEO of APTN, Mr. Jean LaRose, will be speaking to
you in Phase III about the critical importance of this initiative and how
Harvard's innovative approach to developing Aboriginal talent has led to the
establishment of the ground‑breaking Aboriginal Media Education
Fund.
6269
Members of the Commission, that concludes our presentation in
chief.
6270
In closing, I would like to summarize why we believe MIX 103.7
fulfils the Commission's licensing criteria:
6271
Harvard has a strong local presence in Fort McMurray through its
involvement in the real estate, construction and oil sands
sectors;
6272
We are a well‑established and well‑resourced company with a solid
business plan for this new service;
6273
MIX 103.7 will supply an Adult Contemporary format that is missing from
the market and that responds to the high demand on the part of the 18‑54 year
old demographic;
6274
We have committed to 40 percent Canadian content throughout the
broadcast day and week;
6275
We will promote the development of Canadian talent, both on‑the‑air and
off, through our feature programming and a locally‑focused CTD package of
$700,000;
6276
In addition, our partnership with APTN will help train a new generation
of aboriginal reporters;
6277
Granting our application will bring a new voice and fresh editorial
perspective to the market, strengthen an independent broadcaster with roots in
Western Canada, and support Harvard's regional growth
strategy.
6278
We thank you very much for your attention and would be pleased to answer
any questions you may have. Mr.
Chairman, Mr. Olstrom will act as our quarterback for that
section.
6279
Thank you.
6280
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
very much, Mr. Cowie.
6281
Commissioner Cugini...?
6282
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Ladies
and gentlemen, good morning. I
apologize for the quality of my voice today, but sitting in recycled air will
sometimes do this to you.
6283
Like most applicants in these proceedings, if not all, your application
was quite complete and your oral presentation this morning quite complementary
to your application, so I am very happy to see that.
6284
Nonetheless, I do still have some questions for you. If you have been sitting in the room you
pretty well know the order.
6285
So we are going to start with your format, 70 percent Adult
Contemporary, 30 percent popular music. This morning you said that starting at
8:00 p.m. that will skew more of a younger audience. I am assuming that is where you will play
the 30 percent of popular music?
6286
MR. OLSTROM: The majority of
it would come throughout the course of the evening, Commissioner Cugini, but Pop
music in general mixes in ‑‑ the charts cross. The Pop charts and AC charts cross, but
the majority of it will be programmed throughout the
evening.
6287
I will turn to Daryl Holien to sort of give you an overview of how that
sort of progresses throughout the day.
6288
COMMISSIONER CUGINI:
Sure.
6289
MR. HOLIEN: The target
audience of the radio station is 18 to 44, with the majority of the daytime
programming focused towards a 25 to 44 year old, playing AC music, news, some
spoken word and news features.
6290
After 8:00 p.m. in the evening the radio station will shift just
slightly, become more of an 18 to 34 year old radio station with some of the
features that would be played during the day not there.
6291
If we went on an average of songs played throughout the day, we
would be playing nine songs an hour, with two of those being from the pop
genre.
6292
In the evening time with some of these features not there, you are
probably playing 14 songs and five of those would fall in the Pop
arena.
6293
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: When
you say "features", are you also including spoken word
programming?
6294
MR. HOLIEN: Well, some of
those ‑‑ I can speak to the music portion of it. I can ask William to talk about some of
the spoken word.
6295
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: It's
just because you mentioned the word "features" and I'm wondering if you mean
music programming featuring particular artists or when you say "features" you
also mean spoken word programming targeting that younger
demographic?
6296
MR. HOLIEN: Some of the
features, for example, the business report and those kind of things that are
played during the day would not be played in the evening, however the spoken
word features we do have would be tailored to that younger
audience.
6297
I can maybe let William talk about those.
6298
COMMISSIONER CUGINI:
Sure.
6299
MR. ALEXANDER: Thanks,
Daryl.
6300
Yes, the spoken word will change in the evening. During the day news of course will be a
formatted segment, on the hour/half hour news and information
reports.
6301
In the evening, the news and information will be woven into more of the
jaw‑talk segments. This has not
been included in our news and information estimates.
6302
We will still provide news updates as they happen, but the information
will be presented in a less formal manner.
This will meet the younger demographic's need for information, while not
encouraging tune‑out for those seeking more
music.
6303
Information content of course will change was well. For example, the "Community Report" will
air in the evening, but it will be geared towards the younger demographic, with
announcements such as grad rehearsals times at Fort McMurray Comp High or YMCA
day camp volunteer opportunities through Westwood High
School.
6304
It is common programming knowledge that the relevancy of spoken word and
commercial content can significantly affect the enjoyability of a radio
station.
6305
A common request among young listeners is more music, less talk and more
new and emerging artists as well.
MIX 103.7 will meet these demands in the evening with the Canadian
Showcase of new and emerging artists and more music‑based evening show and the
talk about exists will be more on artists, the music and relevant current
events.
6306
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So the
overall picture, have you identified two different core audiences for these two
day parts as a result?
6307
MR. OLSTROM: Yes, we
have.
6308
Primarily we are an Adult Contemporary radio station. However, with the size of the
marketplace you don't narrowcast.
6309
What we are looking to do is be a little bit broader and, as Harvard in
the past has been before the Commission, we have a belief in serving the younger
demographic and we feel there is an opportunity as the propensity for tuning as
we know it across Canada tends to ‑‑ the under 25 demographic, the tuning
is basically double to the 25‑54 demographic after 8:00 p.m. in the
evening. So we found this as a good
opportunity in a market of this size to service that segment of the
audience.
6310
The station won't change dramatically. It's not like a switch goes off,
but the Pop component definitely picks up and
becomes a significant part that would appeal to that younger
demographic.
6311
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: You
will also have anticipated, therefore, my next question which the Chair brings
up with just about every applicant:
Have you identified a median age for both of those
groups?
6312
MR. OLSTROM: Median age for
our radio station is 34.
6313
COMMISSIONER CUGINI:
Including the evening hours?
You still think the median age after 8:00 p.m. will be
34?
6314
MR. OLSTROM: Well, no, the
median age in the evening would not be ‑‑
6315
COMMISSIONER CUGINI:
Right. That's why I asked
for the two, in the two day parts.
Even though, as you say, it's not going to be a complete shift, but you
will have a younger median age in the evening I'm
assuming.
6316
MR. OLSTROM: Yes. I would like Debra McLaughlin to speak
to that.
6317
COMMISSIONER CUGINI:
Sure.
6318
MS McLAUGHLIN: The median
age for the station overall will be 34.5 years of age; in the evening it will be
21.2.
6319
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: That is
pretty exact.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
6320
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: More
or less.
6321
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Yes,
more of less. You are a
statistician I see.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
6322
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: You
also mentioned in your opening statement this morning that it will also include
advertising in terms of how the advertising will be directed to these two day
parts.
6323
How do you anticipate doing that?
6324
MR. OLSTROM: Well, there are
a number of national advertisers that are looking to target those demographics
and those opportunities do exist.
There are businesses in the Fort McMurray community that will be
looking to address that audience.
6325
Maybe I could have Karen just briefly speak to
that.
6326
COMMISSIONER CUGINI:
Yes.
6327
MS BRODERICK: Our research
has found that if advertising is relevant to a younger listener it is really not
a tune‑out factor, so our plan is in the evenings when we are targeting that
younger age demographic that our advertising will reflect that. We have spoken with a number of
advertisers in the market who don't really have an opportunity to reach that
younger demographic so they look at this as an opportunity to do
so.
6328
Wal‑Mart for example, they have set aside a whole marketing plan just for
youth, so that is one example, but there are many others that we would probably
shift into that evening time period.
6329
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: All
right.
6330
You mentioned new and emerging artists in your oral presentation this
morning. Without revisiting the
lengthy discussions that took place a the radio review on this subject, first of
all, the first question is: How are
you defining "new and emerging artists"?
6331
MR. OLSTROM: We are
utilizing what was submitted by the CAB, which is that they are considered new
and emerging up until 12 months from the date they go top 40 on the BDS media
base all formats charts or the artist reaches gold statu.
6332
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: All
right.
Thank you.
6333
Local programming an spoken word.
Like I said, your application is quite thorough and detailed with the
paper that you gave us this morning, so thank you, but I would like to talk to
you about your advisory committee.
6334
I do see the names and so the first question is off: Who will be on that
committee?
6335
What was the selection process?
What was the criteria for choosing these
individuals?
6336
MR. COWIE: Michael and I
worked together on that. We came
into the market, we took advice as to who the involved people were who could be
helpful in this regard. I have
family that live in Fort McMurray.
Through our own business connections there we were given names, not
necessarily within our current realm of things but from their expanded view of
the market.
6337
The number will actually be nine at the end of the day. There are other candidates who chose to
remain anonymous until such time as a licence is awarded, for their own
reasons.
6338
But we tried to find a balance of people, for example the Chair, the
person we have asked to chair it, is a homemaker, teacher. Her husband and she run a very
successful forest products business just north of Fort McMurray, but we wanted
her to ‑‑ and we interviewed her in Fort McMurray. We wanted her to be the social
representative in the group: How is
the community in terms of the educational plant, recreational facility
availability and those sorts of things?
What's happening to the cultural change here.
6339
For example, she told me that one teacher was having difficulty in a
Kindergarten class because none of the children spoke English. So she understand that change that is
taking place, which is kind of under the dynamics of the oil and gas
industry.
6340
So we wanted a person who understood the community, has lived here all
her life, and how families are doing in this.
6341
Really, in building the advisory committee we were trying to answer two
questions. There is a whole new
group of people here who don't know anything about Fort McMurray, and there is a
whole group of people who have lived her for a long time who are wondering
what is going on and how do they play in that?
6342
So we looked for people that, for example, represent the tourism
industry, for people who understand infrastructure, who have been around for a
long time and are part of building the ‑‑ not houses necessarily, the
infrastructure is the city as a whole, it's planning, traffic and all of those
things which are all hot topics here.
6343
You have a lot of people standing around Fort McMurray with nothing to
do. So we believe that our job as a
licensee, should we be fortunate to be one, was to kind of help with that
transition, for those that are coming, those who are here. So we tried to build people around that
knowledge base and have them support us by, on a fairly regular basis, meet with
us, talk to us and make sure that we are talking about the right things,
particularly in our news and information programs, that we are helping and that
we are part of this growth going forward for both of those kinds of
camps.
6344
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Will
they be meeting on a regular basis or is this an ad
hoc situation?
6345
MR. COWIE: No. We do have, by the way, the package that
we discussed with them in terms of how it will work and we would be pleased to
file that, if you wish.
6346
COMMISSIONER CUGINI:
Sure.
6347
MR. COWIE: It meets the
criteria of the CRTC, and so on, and is pretty straightforward in terms of the
numbers of members, the numbers of times they will meet, how they will report,
where their responsibilities lie, and so on.
6348
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: If you
have that, that would be great.
6349
MR. COWIE: Yes. We would be quite pleased to provide
that.
6350
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: When
will you be able to file that with us?
6351
MR. COWIE: We can file it
today.
6352
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank
you.
6353
Just since you are here, will the advisory committee also have a role to
play in your news programming?
6354
MR. COWIE:
No.
6355
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: They
will not.
6356
MR. COWIE: The advisory
committee will be advisory only.
6357
COMMISSIONER CUGINI:
CTD. You have stated that
your commitment is $700,000 over the term of the licence.
6358
MR. COWIE:
Yes.
6359
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: As you
know, you may however be awarded a licence for a shorter period of time than
seven years, or you may launch the service within a year, that is something
that is shorter than ‑‑ therefore the first year may be shorter, so
would you accept as a COL a requirement that you contribute $100,000 per year
for the first seven consecutive broadcast years of your proposed
undertaking?
6360
MR. COWIE: Yes, we
would.
6361
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Now I
would like to go to the particulars of your CTD
commitments.
6362
MR. COWIE: All
right.
6363
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: I know
that there has been correspondence between you and our staff in the
deficiency process regarding the $20,000 a year for seven years to the
Local Broadcast Centre for VoicePrint.
6364
Could you tell us what is your rationale for including this as a CTD
expenditure?
6365
MR. COWIE: Well, we believe
as a group that VoicePrint and the activities of reading and writing for that
group of people goes to the heart of the broadcast ‑‑ to the spirit of a
broadcast licence, let me put it that way.
It is a very important part of things we do and it has bee approved in
the past by the Commission in CRTC 2002‑91 and 92. For Standard Radio and for Rogers
VoicePrint has been approved as a qualifier for Canadian Talent
Development.
6366
But more importantly, in this case, in Fort McMurray, this will be the
first opportunity to begin to train Aboriginal readers.
6367
We came to it a couple of years ago and just found that this to us seemed
like a very important thing to do with part of our CTD
commitments.
6368
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: If for
some reason in our deliberations we don't quite see it the way you do,
would you be willing to redirect that $20,000?
6369
MR. COWIE: Yes, of course we
would.
6370
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: $10,000
per year for scholarships to Keyano College.
6371
MR. COWIE:
Yes.
6372
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Who
will control these funds? Will it
be you or the college?
6373
MR. COWIE: The college
will.
6374
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: The
college will. And what would the
selection process be? Do you write
a cheque to the college or would you write a cheque to the
students?
6375
MR. COWIE: The only criteria
that we require is that it be for music students. After that, the college will make that
decision as to who receives them, on merit and need.
6376
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Will
this be a one $10,000 scholarship or five at $2,000 or 10
at $1,000?
6377
MR. COWIE: No, they
are ‑‑ what is it?
6378
MR. OLSTROM: There are four
annually.
6379
MR. COWIE: Four at $10,000
each.
6380
MR. OLSTROM: Four at
$10,000.
6381
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Four at
$10,000 each?
Okay.
6382
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
That's a lot of money. I'm
going back to school.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
6383
MR. COWIE: Many of the
students at Keyano College are from outside the marketplace and there is a
fairly significant group of First Nations people in those classes, and so on, so
there is a need for scholarships at this level here.
6384
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: $30,000
per year to the Interplay Visual and Performing
Arts Festival.
6385
MR. COWIE:
Yes.
6386
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: You
indicated that this contribution would be limited to performance fees for
Canadian artists.
6387
MR. COWIE: Yes. We wanted to make sure that every
dollar of it went into the pockets of performers.
6388
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Would
you accept this as a condition of licence?
6389
MR. COWIE: Yes, we
will. And we have agreement from
the Interplay group that that indeed will happen.
6390
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Your
news mentoring programming to be offered to a person selected by
APTN.
6391
I know this isn't in your CTD, but it is a benefit of this
application.
6392
Is this is a paid internship?
6393
MR. COWIE: It is a paid
internship. The candidate will be
paid by Harvard, the company. That
is part of Harvard's contribution to this program. So we accepted that responsibility as
part of our agreement with APTN.
6394
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: this is
for one intern?
6395
MR. COWIE: It is one intern
per year. We agree to hire at least
one of those candidates over the period of the licence, over the seven
years. I say "at least one" because
we may, and we are hopeful, of creating more than one candidate who we will then
hire into our newsroom.
6396
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: If we
were to ask you to maintain this internship program over the course of your
licence term on a year‑by‑year basis, would you accept that as a
COL?
6397
MR. COWIE: Absolutely,
yes.
6398
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank
you.
6399
We will now move on to business plan and impact.
6400
If you were here yesterday you will have heard the legal counsel ask any
applicants if they had revised their projections to file them with
us.
6401
Did you revise your projections?
6402
MR. COWIE: We revisited our
projections. We did not refile, and
I will tell you why we didn't.
6403
In the first instance, we did budget forward. We projected in our own thinking that
there would be a bubble in the next year or two. We did not predict the bubble as quickly
in one year as did occur, but over our current state and our first year of
operation we have picked up that ‑‑ our projections included that kind of
increase in the marketplace.
6404
So our revenue projections are at somewhere between $4 and $4.5
million. I don't know exactly what
it is. It might be higher than
that. If it is, that might serve to
reduce our losses in the first five or six years.
6405
However, on the other side, on the cost operating side, we are
absolutely ‑‑ we did budget high on that side and we are very comfortable
with those numbers.
6406
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So you
did take into account the relatively high cost of
living ‑‑
6407
MR. COWIE:
Yes.
6408
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: ‑‑ in Fort McMurray and you stand by the
financial projections as filed?
6409
MR. COWIE: Yes. I may have Paul Hill speak to this. We also have the opportunity to somewhat
control our own destiny in terms of availability of accommodation for people who
will come into the market. We will
try to hire as many of our employees in the market as we can, but those that we
can't, we are in a position to make sure (a) that we can provide accommodation
and, if necessary, subsidize talent who might not otherwise come to Fort
McMurray because of the costs, so we have made provisions for both of
those.
6410
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Again,
those provisions are included in your overall projections?
6411
MR. COWIE: Yes, they
are.
6412
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: You
heard discussion yesterday about how in order to attract talent to this market,
and because of the high cost of living, you may have to pay salaries higher than
you currently do in other markets?
6413
MR. COWIE: Yes. What we have done there is, first of all
we budgeted an average that is pretty much equal to ‑‑ I have just forgot
the name of the exact study, but it was done by OK Radio, and it said that in
the sales and service sector that the average salary was something like $56,000
a year. We have budgeted at that
level so we are okay there.
6414
If we are required to subsidize above that, we are able to do
so.
6415
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Is
$56,000 the average salary?
6416
MR. COWIE: In that sales and
service sector. That is out of a
report.
6417
MS SVEDHAL: Bruce, if you
will, I can jump in for a minute.
6418
MR. COWIE: All
right.
6419
MS SVEDHAL: Our average
salaries that we budgeted were $53,000.
The OK Radio submission on May 24th in the sales and service sector was
$46,000, so we are about 14 percent above that. Our overall expenditures are $11
million, which is the second highest of the applicants. We have a 10 percent cushion in
those numbers and I'm very confident that we are very reasonable with
them.
6420
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: In
terms of your staff numbers, how many staff members will be dedicated to
news?
6421
MR. OLSTROM: There will be
four people dedicated to news in addition to the APTN reporter which will be
providing stories of relevance on the aboriginal community. So there are four people in
news.
6422
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Will
there be another group of people that will be dedicated to your spoken word
local programming?
6423
MR. OLSTROM: Those people,
the spoken word programming will be developed through the news department as
well as the on‑air talent and the programming department.
6424
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: How
many on‑air announcers?
6425
MR. OLSTROM: There are
five.
6426
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: How
many do you foresee in the programming department?
6427
MR. OLSTROM: Those are five
on‑air.
6428
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So they
will be ‑‑
6429
MR. OLSTROM: That would be a
morning person, midday, afternoon and two evening swing.
6430
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So
these nine people will be responsible for the five hours and 53 minutes of news
and information programming?
6431
MR. OLSTROM: No, the news
and information will be developed primarily by the news
department.
6432
COMMISSIONER CUGINI:
Including Canadian Showcase?
6433
MR. OLSTROM: That would be a
function of the programming department.
So the program director in conjunction with the other on‑air talent would
produce these programs and develop these programs over the course of the
week.
6434
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: All
right.
6435
So the total of 15 hours and 53 minutes will be produced
locally?
6436
MR. OLSTROM: That is
correct.
6437
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: There
will be no programming shared with your other stations?
6438
MR. OLSTROM: No. No, none at all.
6439
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Are
there any synergies at all with your other stations?
6440
MR. OLSTROM: We did not look
at any synergies, however, you know, if we found that there was a requirement to
do so on a traffic basis or an accounting basis, that may occur, but we haven't
planned for that in this situation.
6441
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So
right now your plans are to be a standalone station in
Fort McMurray?
6442
MR. OLSTROM: Fully
standalone operation, yes.
6443
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Which
of course leads me to the big question that we always ask.
6444
As you know, there is a very strong incumbent in the area and how do you,
as an independent coming into this market, believe that you will be able to
compete with the incumbent already in Fort McMurray?
6445
MR. COWIE: We may give you
several answers on that, Commissioner.
6446
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: The one
you want the most for us to believe would be the good one.
6447
MR. COWIE: Well, it is the
highest demand format in Canada. It
is not present here in the marketplace.
6448
We have a combination of things.
We think we can come successfully into the market and, second, we think
we can come successfully into the market and not upset the incumbent too much,
because there are two stations sharing the total
marketplace.
6449
I will go to Michael for the detail of this, but we think there is enough
room, the market is growing fast enough and will grow over time to accept the
radio station successfully and allow us to do all the things we want to do and
compete at a very high level.
6450
MR. OLSTROM: The thing you
have to remember is, Adult Contemporary is a female leaning or skewing format
and both the current radio station is a Rock station, a Country station, tend to
be more predominant male. Just in
our anecdotal I guess qualitative research that we did in the marketplace and
talking to a lot of women in the marketplace, it was like "Oh, my God, thank
you. Something for us". So that solidified our decision in the
direction that we should take.
6451
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: How
many radio stations do you believe Fort McMurray can
handle?
6452
MR. COWIE: I just looked at
more economic information this morning that I have seen for the first time and
the notion that this is a five‑year bubble and then everything is going to slow
down just isn't going to happen.
This is going to go on for a long period of time.
6453
I think in this first phase, with the immediate growth we are seeing, we
think it is likely that two licences would be appropriate. Because within the timeframe of this
licence period certainly there would be room for four stations in this
market.
6454
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: You
have heard us ask other applicants about whether or not you felt it was such a
strong market that we could even license two additional stations with similar
formats.
6455
What are your thoughts on that?
6456
MR. COWIE: That would
not ‑‑
6457
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: If you
were one of the two, would you alter your format in any way if we were to do
that?
6458
MR. COWIE: Well, that's a
different question, but if ‑‑
6459
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: It goes
hand‑in‑hand.
6460
MR. COWIE: If we were one of
two licensed in the same format we would adapt and compete and we would be quite
comfortable with that. That would
not be our first choice, however.
6461
But I look at the roster of applicants here and there aren't a lot of
choices in terms of variety of formats.
There are literally three and three.
6462
I understand your dilemma, but there is one older demographic, I guess,
that has to be recognized in that equation as well in the
lounge.
6463
But we would be quite comfortable and happy to compete, if that
was the Commission's decision.
6464
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: You
know that two of the applicants before us are proposing gospel music
stations. Do you think that the
market could sustain two additional services, plus one of
them?
6465
MR. COWIE: We think that is
probable too.
6466
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: That
is ‑‑
6467
MR. COWIE:
Yes.
6468
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: ‑‑ a problem?
6469
MR. COWIE: No, no. That's
possible, too.
6470
COMMISSIONER CUGINI:
Okay.
Thank you.
6471
Thank you, Mr. Chair, those are my questions.
6472
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Commissioner Cram...?
6473
COMMISSIONER CRAM: After
yesterday I'm a little worried about broadcasters from my
region.
6474
Can you tell me, Mr. Hill or Mr. Cowie, why you applied here and not
Grande Prairie?
6475
MR. COWIE: Well, I thought
about that overnight and I thought of some answer that equated to what Elmer
Hildebrand was doing on that day.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
6476
MR. COWIE: But I didn't want
to go there particularly.
6477
Actually, in the circle of life and the sequence of things, at the time
we were presented with the idea we did look at Grande
Prairie.
6478
Presented with that idea we had a dilemma to deal with. We believed then and believe now that a
major market radio station is vital to our regional strategy, so our focus was
clearly on Calgary. Sequentially
all of those things might look like they don't line up, but they
do.
6479
Secondarily to that, and after a lot of thinking about it, the synergies
that would exist between Calgary ‑‑ and we are not trying to presuppose
anything here ‑‑ the synergies that would exist between the oil plant,
which is here in Fort McMurray, and the ownership and management of it which is
in Calgary, appealed to us.
6480
If you have two licences based on that kind of geographic connection and
also business and social connection, it seemed to us that that would be the best
place of the two for us.
6481
So we did think about applying for both, but at the end of the day that
would be a much better configuration for us we think and would allow for
information flowing both ways to our listeners about what is going on in the
province from both a corporate point of view and from the place where it is
actually taking place.
6482
COMMISSIONER CRAM: I have to
say, that is a better answer than ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
6483
MR. COWIE: I agree with
that.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
6484
COMMISSIONER CRAM: You had
to work on it, though, eh?
Sorry.
6485
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But
Mr. Hildebrand's was nice and short and we like pithy, epigrammatic
responses. We are giving him
marks on that.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
6486
COMMISSIONER CRAM: I will
ask my normal question about voice‑tracking. How much are
you planning?
6487
MR. OLSTROM: There will be
none during the broadcast week.
6488
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Would you
agree to a COL?
6489
MR. OLSTROM: Does the
Commission ‑‑
6490
COMMISSIONER CRAM: If you
recall, I asked ‑‑
6491
MR. OLSTROM: Yes, we
would.
6492
COMMISSIONER CRAM: I asked
the people last in Grande Prairie the same thing.
6493
MR. OLSTROM: Yes, we would,
Commissioner Cram.
6494
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank
you.
6495
My last question is:
Mr. Alexander, I had a hard time pronouncing your name when I went
to visit you at the Creek.
Yuzicapi?
6496
MR. ALEXANDER: Yuzicapi is
my real last name. William
Alexander is on‑air name.
6497
COMMISSIONER CRAM: How is
the Creek doing?
6498
MR. ALEXANDER: It's doing
fine. It's on its way back,
yes.
6499
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Oh,
excellent.
6500
Thank you. Thank you very
much
6501
Thank you, Mr. Chair/
6502
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Commissioner Williams...?
6503
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good
morning, Mr. Cowie and Olstrom and
panellists.
6504
I think I agree with you that decisions are made in Calgary and the plant
is in Fort McMurray, but there is some considered belief that the money is spent
in Edmonton, given the vast number of Fort McMurray workers that are on the
highway between Fort McMurray and Edmonton every weekend, or I think it's
Wednesday nights and weekends.
6505
Do you expect much of your ad revenue to come from Edmonton
businesses?
6506
MR. COWIE: We had not
considered approaching Edmonton businesses, no.
6507
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So
other than national advertisers your sales projections are focused primarily on
the Fort McMurray market?
6508
MR. COWIE:
Yes.
6509
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All
right. Thank you very
much.
6510
That's my question.
6511
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Commissioner Cram again.
6512
COMMISSIONER CRAM:
Sorry.
6513
In your written talk today you talked about leading to the Aboriginal
Media Education Fund. I have never
heard of that.
6514
Can you tell me what that is?
6515
MR. COWIE: Do you want to
answer that?
6516
MR. OLSTROM: Actually, what
I would like to do is I would like to have Debra McLaughlin speak to that,
because through her and ourselves and APTN Debra has background knowledge that
she can relay to you.
6517
MR. COWIE: Just before she
does that, Commissioner Cram, Jean LaRose, the President and CEO of APTN will be
here to speak about that in Phase III.
6518
COMMISSIONER CRAM: All
right.
6519
MR. COWIE: But Debra has
done the liaison work for us on this very special project, so we will have her
answer.
6520
MS McLAUGHLIN: The
Aboriginal Media Education Fund was borne out of really a necessity and APTN is
a lead sponsor in it. Repeatedly
APTN was challenged to find, not story ideas necessarily but the people to
develop those story ideas into productions. Not only that, they were continually
being approached as the resource, or the potential resource, for referrals to
talented aboriginal producers, writers, cameramen, any phase of production. It became quite clear in some aspects
that they were in danger of losing their staff and they couldn't find the
people.
6521
So collectively I believe ‑‑ and as Bruce mentioned Jean LaRose will
be here later to explain it in more detail ‑‑ but the idea of putting
together a fund that was contributed to by many aspects and many companies in
and outside the broadcasting industry was developed.
6522
It was announced this winter.
It was presented, I believe at Banff, and I know that Mr. LaRose has
had meetings with some people at the Commission ‑‑ I'm not sure who, I
wasn't party to those meetings ‑‑ to discuss this.
6523
The Harvard involvement comes ‑‑ actually, part of the reason he
believed that this fund could work was because of the kind of initiatives
Harvard was taking in actually mentoring, taking people into their
organization and at the end of the year turning out skilled, in this case, news
gatherers, news reporters.
6524
So it was announced, as I say, I believe this past winter. It has been discussed with the
Commission and it is now a viable fund with a separate operating company, I
believe based in Toronto, and I think the goal is $10 million and they have
started to collect that.
6525
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank
you.
6526
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
6527
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mrs. Cram. I had a very
similar question, so thank you for asking.
6528
Going back to your CTD plans, we quickly discussed VoicePrint and you
answered if the Commission was to say that VoicePrint was not meeting the notion
of CTD you will redirect the funding.
6529
Have you made up your mind where you will redirect that
money?
6530
MR. COWIE: We have not, but
I would say this, that it would be directed in the area of music talent within
the genre that we propose for this radio station and, as always, it would be in
payments to artists to help them along in their careers.
6531
THE CHAIRPERSON: Have you so
far made any commitments to VoicePrint regarding the CTD commitment you were
ready to make?
6532
MR. COWIE: I think I have to
ask Debra to answer that. I don't
think we have.
6533
MS McLAUGHLIN: There has
been a letter exchanged. The
Commission would have a copy in the file of a letter of support expressing
VoicePrint's understanding that the funding will be coming to
them.
6534
However, I have to qualify that by saying that VoicePrint hasn't spent
the money, as it were, because their target in receiving these funds was to
develop aboriginal readers and narrators.
6535
As you know, they have both skilled and non‑skilled readers and they have
become quite the training base for providing people with their first exposure to
on‑air presentation.
6536
So if the Commission was to decide that this was an ineligible recipient,
then VoicePrint would not be negatively impacted as the program itself has not
been developed for the Fort McMurray area.
6537
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank
you.
6538
I know that legal counsel has a question.
6539
MS FISHER: Thank you,
Mr. Chair.
6540
I just wanted to clarify, you have indicated that you will provide
additional information relating to your Local Advisory Committee at some point
today and I just wanted to clarify if you could please provide that before the
beginning of Phase III.
6541
MR. COWIE: Yes, indeed we
can.
6542
MS FISHER: Thank
you.
6543
Those are my questions.
6544
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank
you.
6545
Mr. Cowie, you have two minutes to tell us why Harvard should be granted
the licence to serve Fort McMurray.
6546
MR. COWIE: Thank you very
much, Mr. Chairman.
6547
This is the part I like.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
6548
MR. COWIE: At every hearing
we try to find an analogy for our proposal and I'm going to thank Commissioner
Langford for providing it for us on this occasion from a conversation
yesterday.
6549
We are not the prince wandering the country with a slipper looking for a
perfect fit. Our proposal is the
perfect fit for Fort McMurray.
6550
We offer a format Adult Contemporary that is not available in the market
despite being the number one music format in Canada.
6551
Our version of AC is tailor‑made for Fort McMurray. A proposal of 70 percent AC and
30 percent Pop clearly fills a program gap in the market and it meets
consumer demand for this new service.
We offer you a format that appeals both to the under served female
segment of the population and provides a listening opportunity for the
youth in the market.
6552
Our core demo is 18‑44, a group that represents approximately
52 percent of the city's population.
Clearly our format will serve the needs of the
majority.
6553
With 40 percent Canadian content, 25 percent of which will be
devoted to new and emerging Canadian artists, Harvard will play a key role in
developing Canadian artists and provide what is often missing in
radio.
6554
The residents of Fort McMurray told us what they value and we have
responded. They want variety. We are offering a broad AC format that
appeals to both ends of the 18‑54 demographic and a strong commitment to new and
emerging artists.
6555
News and information. We are
offering a comprehensive local news service which will provide extensive
local reflection. They want
diversity. With only two stations
currently in the market we will be able to offer new music currently
not available.
6556
In summary, Mr. Chairman, our format adds
diversity.
6557
Our commitment to Canadian music will showcase indigenous talent
with an emphasis on new Canadian artists.
6558
Our CTD package will develop talent at the local level, provide new
resources to the vision impaired, and help train a new generation of aboriginal
reporters.
6559
Finally, we know this market.
We have a significant presence in the real estate and housing markets and
are involved in the oil sands. This
has provided us with invaluable insight into this unique and growing
place.
6560
To ensure we reflect the community at all times, we have established
a Local Advisory Committee, the members of which have strong ties to Fort
McMurray.
6561
Mr. Chairman, we are prepared to invest in and grow with Fort
McMurray. We have found the slipper
that fits, and with your approval Harvard and Fort McMurray will live happily
ever after.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
6562
MR. COWIE: Thank you very
much.
6563
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Cowie. Thank you to your
team.
6564
We will take a 10‑minute, so we will get back for 10 to
10:00.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 0940 /
Suspension à 0940
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1000 / Reprise
à 1000
6565
THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam
Secretary, would you call the next applicant, please?
6566
THE SECRETARY: Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
6567
Before we introduce the next panel I would just like to indicate that the
applicant Harvard has just filed the additional information on their Local
Advisory Committee. The information
will be placed on their application file and will be available in the
examination room.
6568
We are now ready to proceed with Item 16 on the Agenda, which is an
application by King's Kids Promotions Outreach Ministries Incorporated for a
licence to operate an English‑language low power commercial specialty FM radio
programming undertaking in Fort McMurray.
6569
The new station would operate on frequency 91.1 MHz, channel 216LP, with
an effective radiated power of 35 watts, non‑directional antenna/antenna height
of 71.5 metres.
6570
Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Rick Kirschner, who will
introduce his colleagues. You will
then have 20 minutes for your presentation.
6571
Mr. Kirschner...?
PRESENTATION /
PRÉSENTATION
6572
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Thank
you.
6573
Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Members of CRTC and Commission staff. Thank you for hearing our presentation
today, but also for taking the time to investigate thoroughly the ramification
of applicants for Fort McMurray, Alberta which is very distinct and unique in
its social situation.
6574
Presenters for King's Kids Promotions Outreach Ministries Incorporated
are, on my right, Dave Kirschner, a 28‑year resident and business owner in Fort
McMurray. Dave is a father, and a
grandfather who has been involved in the social, economic and many other areas
of the city's development during that time.
6575
On my left is Mr. Bruce Taylor an 11‑year pastor, parent and founder of
the Centre for Hope, street‑level outreach in Fort
McMurray.
6576
My name is Rick Kirschner. I
am a parent of three teenagers, a former Ontario Police Officer, business owner
and currently an ordained minister.
6577
Mr. Chairman, we are here today to present our proposal for a new and
distinct music service for Fort McMurray residents, a Christian music service, a
specialty station with at least 90 percent of the weekly total music drawn
from subcategory 35.
6578
KAOS 91.1, with a vision to "Expose Hope thru relevant Music, Talk, and
Action", will impact more than simply the entertainment realm, but also the
social, educational and spiritual climate of Fort McMurray as
well.
6579
Today we will give a brief overview of King's Kids Promotions, which has
been incorporated since 1992; its history prior to radio; it's current operation
of KAOS 99.5 in Peterborough, Ontario, including a short DVD of how KAOS is
unique from other Christian operations in Canada; why it is so appealing and
applauded by Christian and secular artists, as well as secular and Christian
advertisers.
6580
Number two, King's Kids presentation will also include an overview of the
need for the format of the proposed station, as well as current partnerships and
support already developed within the community.
6581
King's Kids lengthy history of Canadian Talent Development prior to radio
broadcasting will be mentioned throughout this
presentation.
6582
MR. D. KIRSCHNER: Mr.
Chairman, King's Kids was established by Reverend Rick and Cathy Kirschner and
team in 1992 with a vision to "reach, build, and activate youth to impact the
world for Jesus Christ". Through
music and performing arts, work projects and world mission trips, King's Kids
has been involved with hundreds of youth, both Christian and secular, to help
them reach their potential in life.
6583
Rick, a youth pastor for the past 18 years at Selwyn Outreach
Centre, has always been encouraged to do whatever it takes to engage youth and
help them grow. Rick is very
familiar with the youth culture of Canada, being a former police officer, high
school teacher and youth pastor before entering radio
broadcasting.
6584
On studying his Master's Degree in reaching the North American youth
culture in the 21st century, Rick became even more convinced that the
media was the most significant force in the culture today, a force that can
either strengthen or weaken any community.
6585
In early 2000 Rick began to explore the Christian radio ministry, having
been involved with the development of many Canadian artists prior to this
time. For Rick and King's Kids this
is a natural fit, simply an extension of what they have been doing for
years.
6586
King's Kids has produced seven Canadian CDs on an amateur basis and is
currently working on two more. Many
of the over 100 first‑time artists King's Kids has recorded have gone on to
write, produce, record and perform in professional careers
today.
6587
King's Kids continues to reach people who need hope, encourage them to
grow and pursue their dreams and help them become active in making the world a
better place.
6588
Trevor McNevan from Thousand Foot Krutch
states:
"I collectively have 2 bands on
Tooth and Nail/EMI Records, Both `Thousand Foot Krutch' and `FM Static', as well
as producing/ songwriting with/for other artists in this industry. Rick Kirschner and KAOS Radio
Peterborough have been a tremendous support to both our bands, both on and off
the stage. Even before the license
was in hand, they were a large staple for encouraging and nurturing many local
artists. Their hearts are good,
their vision is strong, and myself as well as many other Canadian U.S. artists I
know will always support, and appreciate the help of KAOS
Radio..."
6589
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Right now
we would like to turn your attention to the DVD.
‑‑‑ Video presentation /
Présentation vidéo
6590
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: King's
Kids current operation, KAOS 99.5 in Peterborough,
Ontario.
6591
KAOS in Peterborough went on the air 24 November 2004, a low‑power
undertaking which nicely covers the major population of the city. The Contemporary Hit/Rock format of the
station has mass appeal with the 34 and under demographic, but is also readily
validated by those older in its ability to motivate and influence the younger
generation.
6592
Music with Christian themes comes in many styles and expressions, from
Rock, Hip‑Hop, traditional/classic, Skaw, Pop, Adult Contemporary and many
more.
6593
Although 90 percent of the music comes from the subcategory 35,
the other 10 percent could easily be considered the same type of music but
written and performed by secular artists.
In no way does it stand against Judeo Christian themes and morality. In fact, it is often more overt in its
stance for Christian themes and morality than some Christian
artists.
6594
The uniqueness of KAOS radio is its branding and approach to the
market. From the name "KAOS', which
to many has a negative connotation although it is derived from the Bible in
Genesis one, to the avoidance of calling the itself "Christian" has allowed the
station to be positioned in the market as a positive new music alternative while
not being considered religious.
6595
Post‑9/11 North American culture seems to be demanding a more positive
approach from the music industry.
KAOS radio has responded to that need by exposing new music to our
communities that emphasize hope and fun.
6596
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman,
the major benefit of this positioning and branding is
threefold:
6597
First, Christian and Christian‑valued music and artists get exposed to
the general market because thousands tune into a new music station that would
never listen to a Christian station because they are often perceived as
Bible‑thumping stations asking for money.
6598
A poor definition of Christianity has often caused people to shy away
from things called Christian. The
following is an unsolicited e‑mail:
"Thank YOU so much for your
wonderful station. I listen at work
on the internet everyday ... it ministers to me in a way that I never
expected. I have come to know some
awesome bands like thousand foot Krutch through listening through your
station... My husband and I hope to
move to Peterborough someday and are thankful that such a resource will be
available to our girls ... when they need it. ‑
Wendy"
6599
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Mr.
Chairman, the spirituality of the music is attractive to the
audience and encourages both Christian and non‑Christian alike. Youth social agencies are featured and
lifestyle issues are explored in ways that are palatable to our
listeners.
6600
Sometimes Christianity has been poorly defined by history. This antiquated definition makes the
religion not appealing to the culture.
By removing the name which is often poorly defined and misleading
anyways, people can experience the ways and purposes of Christian spirituality
for themselves. The new approach is
usually only offensive to some Christians who believes we are not being true to
our beliefs. However, consistently
we engage a large number of non‑Christian people who are seeking spirituality
but not religion.
6601
Dr. Dave for youth is an ordained Baptist Minister with a Ph.D. in
Education. He airs a feature on
KAOS 99.5 in Peterborough. Dave
presents Judeo Christian value, talks to kids using common language. He doesn't quote chapter and verse,
although he is quoting the Bible and young people love it and are tuned
in.
6602
Another example of this approach being beneficial was the production of a
CD, which is included in your package, called "Journey, a Tribute to the life of
Aaron Montgomery". This CD
incorporated positive encouraging general market and Christian music which was
distributed to the entire population of a secular high school to help them cope
with the suicide of a fellow student.
New and old Canadian Christian artists were exposed to the entire group
and a major service was provided to a grieving student
body.
6603
Post‑modern North American culture is very hungry for spiritual things
and for the gospel of Jesus Christ if presented in relevant
ways.
6604
Sonia, one girl says:
"I'm listening to Lucid Noize show
on grieving and it answered some of my prayers. When my mom died I just felt like giving
up, it's to hard to be strong and to live without her on my own, when I heard
you mention on Lucid Noize that with a loss of a close person sometimes we feel
like dying with them, that's how I felt‑ but when you said `if there is one
message just don't give up, grief is hard but it's going to get easier and you
can get through it", those words helped me a lot. Thanks for doing Lucid Noize and the
messages".
6605
MR. TAYLOR: A third benefit
is that advertisers enjoy the positive music and programming, and although some
is overtly Christian they are willing to support it because it is moral. Many businesses advertise on our station
because we have a moral positive stance.
There is no off‑coloured humour or sexual innuendo and people appreciate
that whether they are Christian or not.
6606
Many Christians share values with other world religions and so by not
branding the station Christian, but by upholding Judeo Christian values,
initiatives, traditions and some overtly Christian specialty shows, the station
has a much wider appeal and brings much wider market shares as a
result.
6607
This philosophy of positive contemporary hit music is well received in
Peterborough and the letters of support and community partnerships prove
it.
6608
We have promised financial support from several Fort McMurray businesses
who are not Christian because they believe in the moral philosophy of the
station.
6609
Peterborough KAOS has a wide appeal because of how we include our values
of promoting young local talent in our marketing and sales initiatives. Currently our KAOS radio rode show
incorporates a new act called "Stars on Stage" to our remotes. Not only do we do a radio broadcast from
the location, but we bring in three hours of bright Canadian local talent. Every one wins. The retail client gets a real show to
enhance their event; the performers receive much needed exposure to the public;
and KAOS radio adds value to its service, which makes us competitive in the
market.
6610
This years' show includes over 20 new performers. We are currently developing and hosting
the "Peterborough Pop Idol" to be held at the Peterborough Exhibition, and the
"Stars on Stage" are hosting a stage at the International Plowing Match in
Peterborough this September.
6611
The organization is not even a year old and it is playing at premier
venues sponsored by KAOS Radio.
Many corporate sponsors embrace this because of the community‑mindedness
and promotion of local Canadian talent.
6612
Mr. Chairman, we will now look at expanding on our Canadian Talent
Development.
6613
King's Kids has, for the past two years, conducted several battle of the
bands in conjunction with local catholic and public school boards. We have purchased and lend a
professional sound system to schools churches and other groups and hold monthly
shows designed to encourage and mentor new bands and
artists.
6614
Our financial investment far exceeds the minimum requirements and is much
more than proposed in our original application. Again, our history shows we have
consistently invested in Canadian Talent before we had a radio operation, and I
believe KAOS operates in the true spirit of the CRTC's Canadian Talent
Development requirements.
6615
A couple of Canadian bands have commented in your notes to support
this. They are there for you to
read later, we wouldn't have time.
6616
But, Mr. Chairman, now we will continue with a review of the need for
this Christian radio format in Fort McMurray.
6617
As a pastor and long‑time resident of Fort McMurray, there are many
social issues that have emerged over time that we deal with on a daily
basis. It has brought me a great
deal of hope to understand that there are those who want to come to Fort
McMurray to make a difference in the community. We have many people and businesses that
come to our area to make money.
6618
We have a lot of spin‑off issues because of the fast‑paced growth that
the drive for financial gain brings:
Drug and alcohol abuse, kids being kicked out of their homes, homeless
people and families, a high cost of living that brings a sense of poverty to
many working people, and other issues.
6619
KAOS radio is committed to being a part of the solutions to these types
of issues. They have expressed
their primary desire for this proposal as being the need to provide a positive
influence in the lives of the young people in our community. Also, they have expressed the desire to
partner with other non-profit agencies like the Salvation
Army Shelter, the Centre of Hope for the homeless, Young Life, Youth with a
Mission, the Soup Kitchen and others.
6620
I have reviewed most of the other applications and have even had some
discussion with those involved with some of the those applications. They have expressed a desire to be
involved in the community, however this has always been secondary and they are
business‑driven first.
6621
KAOS has shown time and time again that they will be committed to our
community and flexible to how that needs to work. As a Pastor, I can assure you that the
majority of the church community is supportive of this application. Also, I am certain that many of our
churches will want to partner with the station for special events, advertising
and concerts. KAOS Radio would be a
positive influence in our Community.
6622
MR. D. KIRSCHNER: Mr.
Chairman, we have a large‑base local steering committee and several letters to
commit time and finances. My KAOS
91.1 in Fort MCMurray with a vision to expose hope through relevant music, talk
and action is bound to succeed.
6623
While we do not went to generalize or overstate the serious condition in
Fort McMurray, we do want to acknowledge that there are significant social ills
that affect every socioeconomic level of society.
6624
As stated by Rev Taylor, the mission of KAOS radio is to raise a standard
of involvement in the social fabric of the community to not only offer a
healthier music and programming solution, but to offer and support the many
social services that are currently caring for the
community.
6625
In a letter of support for our application by M.P. Brian Jean, he states
the preference for a station in Fort McMurray with a mandate to help the younger
demographic, a station that inspires personal community involvement and is not
focused on making money as much as making a positive community
difference.
6626
Our records indicate over 264 general letters of support and at least 20
business letters were mailed to the CRTC.
We regret that over 163 were returned as they were not received in time;
even having been mailed 10 days prior to the deadline for
interventions.
6627
Our Mayor, Melissa Blake, writes that she particularly likes the fact
that this station is locally steered and programmed.
6628
From MP to MLA to our Mayor, every level of Fort McMurray government is
supportive of the vision and people behind the station. The church community has strongly
supported this application from Evangelicals to Roman Catholics, including a
letter from the Knights of Columbus who pledge financial support, as well as the
youth ministry coordinator and many other parishioners.
6629
The Assistant Superintendent of the catholic board, Kim Jenkins, has
pledged support and a keen interest, as well as principals from both the
elementary and other high schools.
6630
This application includes interventions of people who have never
advertised on radio before, but who have pledged significant financial
support. We also showed promise for
others who currently advertise on radio that they would be willing to support as
well financially.
6631
Rev Taylor and other local pastors all strongly support the application
and suggest that they will also donate in significant ways to launch
the station.
6632
KAOS staff has already been working to help locals develop their
talent. An excerpt from an
unsolicited letter as follows expresses thanks to Mr. Kirschner's help with
a local band:
"... Rick I want to thank you for
the time you spent with me an `Liberty's Prelude' we appreciate your patience
and care you gave us at our practice we look forward to you coming up here and
helping out bands like us... Josh (McDaniel) Fort
McMurray"
6633
Another established relationship agrees in principle to a partnership
with KAOS. Russell Thomas with the
local publicist at Keyano Theatre has said
that:
"During the annual InterPlay
Festival of the Visual and Performing Arts, KAOS will sponsor a Sunday morning
Musical Celebration of Faith.
Currently, the festival does not have any programming on the Sunday
morning. The Musical Celebration of
Faith would be non‑denominational event that give the local performers a chance
to express themselves in front of a family audience."
6634
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: In
closing, King's Kids and KAOS 91.1 are responding to a need in Fort
McMurray. I believe we have
demonstrated impressive local support and a business plan which will help us
make this resource a reality.
6635
We believe our long history of Canadian Talent Development, even before
we were involved in broadcasting, is a reflection of the true spirit of the
CRTC'S Canadian Talent Development requirement.
6636
King's Kids unique philosophy and approach with this new and distinct
Christian music service is refreshing and bold and has proven in Peterborough to
draw many people to this format, exposing more Christian and general market
Canadian talent to the citizens of Canada.
6637
Thank you for your time. We
look forward to answering your questions.
6638
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Kirschner.
6639
Commissioner Williams...?
6640
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good
morning, Mr. Kirschner and Taylor.
6641
I note you have filed some revised revenue and expense numbers here that
I guess is almost a 70‑80 percent increase in sales revenue for
example.
6642
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: That is
correct, sir. That was done prior
to coming
6643
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All
right. Thank
you.
6644
Why have you chosen to use a 35 watt transmitter in the Fort
McMurray marketplace?
6645
Is this power enough to serve your entire proposed
market?
6646
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: We found
that wattage successful in Peterborough.
We did take that to our consultant and engineer in Montreal and he seemed
to think that was quite sufficient to cover the area so we went ahead with
that.
6647
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm
not familiar with Peterborough. How
large is Peterborough in population, say, compared to
McMurray?
6648
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: It is
72,000 people.
6649
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So a
little larger then?
6650
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The
competing Christian radio application is a 20,000 watt station and I was just
curious about this.
6651
Go ahead, Mr. Chair.
6652
THE CHAIRPERSON: Back to the
question that Commissioner Williams was asking you regarding technical, are they
high enough buildings in Fort McMurray?
6653
MR. D. KIRSCHNER:
Yes.
6654
THE CHAIRPERSON: Where do
you plan to have your antenna? Is
it on the top of a building or on top of a mountain?
6655
MR. D. KIRSCHNER: Our tower
is actually just to the southeast of the city in the industrial
park.
6656
If I could refer to the CRTC's document it gives the tower heights and I
believe the tower that we are looking at transmitting out of is 71 metres,
which is about a third higher than the other
applicants.
6657
THE CHAIRPERSON: So a
35 watt will give you fairly ‑‑ well, I can see the map and I know the
engineers there, so I'm sure that they have taken everything into consideration,
but I wanted only not to lead you to believe that there was some
problems.
6658
All right. Thank
you.
6659
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm
going to spend a bit of time gaining a better understanding of your proposed
music format now.
6660
We note that 90 percent of your music will come from subcategory 35,
non‑classic religious. In your
supplementary brief you describe your music format as Hot Adult Contemporary and
Contemporary hit radio. We realize
that some artists that produce music in the non‑classic religious genre,
Category 3, can find their music on billboards Hot AC or CHR charts as crossover
artists. As you know, these
selections are usually classified as Category 2 music.
6661
This being said, could you explain to us how your musical format which
you define as Hot AC, CHR format, will be predominantly 90 percent composed
music from subcategory 35 non‑classic religious?
6662
Is it that contemporary music styles are also being produced by Canadian
artists?
6663
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: I'm sorry,
I'm not really getting the full depth of the question.
I'm sorry.
6664
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All
right, I will go through it again.
No problem.
6665
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Thank
you. Sorry.
6666
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Can
you please explain to us how your musical format, which you define as Hot Adult
Contemporary and Contemporary hit radio format will still be predominantly
90 percent composed of music from subcategory 35, which is non‑classic
religious?
6667
Could it be possible and is it possible that contemporary music styles
are also being produced by Christian artists?
6668
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: That is
correct. There is almost
exponential growth in the Christian music industry responding to the need for
Christian contemporary music, Rock and CHR music as well.
6669
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I
note that your programming will be directed mainly towards the youth of Fort
McMurray.
6670
For the record, could you tell me what demographic will make up your core
target audience and what would you expect would be the median
age?
6671
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: We project
our major demographic to be 18 to 34, our secondary demographic to be 16 to
44. The median age we would expect
to be 29 years old.
6672
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:
Twenty‑nine years old. I
guess you are still a youth at 29, judging on my children.
6673
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Actually,
at 44.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
6674
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How
similar or different will your proposed Fort McMurray station be to your
existing Peterborough service?
6675
MR. R. KIRSCHNER:
Peterborough service is a CHR/Rock station. It will be similar in the evenings when
we would go to more of a Rock format or add some Rock to the format, being a
little more inviting to the younger demographic. But primarily in the day would be that
Hot AC, CHR music format, a little bit of rock thrown in for the old
rockers.
6676
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All
right.
6677
In your deficiency response you indicated that 95 percent of the
programming would be locally produced and the remaining 5 percent would
feature programs which will assist in addressing issues of relevance in the Fort
McMurray area.
6678
Could you tell us where the remaining 5 percent of the programming
would originate from, indicating if it is Canadian or non‑Canadian and the
amount from each source?
6679
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: We are
working potentially ‑‑ and the finalization will be up to the local
steering committee, but we do anticipate local brokered programming of
approximately three hours a week.
It could be people such as Focus on the Family, Insight for Living, Chuck
Swindoll.
6680
This is American programming.
We are working hard to develop our own Canadian programming similar to
this. We have done that with Dr.
Dave Overholt from Hamilton, Ontario.
We have developed Canadian Christian programming that we would like to
air, but up to this point the quality is not yet sufficient to be deemed viable
and suitable for the station.
6681
So three hours, to answer your question, would be brokered program. The rest would be locally
produced.
6682
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How
soon do you anticipate being able to replace that American programming with
Canadian‑produced?
6683
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: I would be
going out on a limb to really say that, but we have developed these two
shows right now that are becoming prominent and there has been some ‑‑
Lucid Noize is the other program that we are half an hour. It is a Canadian‑produced program in our
studios by our volunteers and people on the streets in Peterborough, and there
has been people interested in that program across the
country.
6684
So I would like to say we could by next year be doing at least one hour,
but I just really don't know how soon we could replace that
completely.
6685
I would love to do it immediately.
6686
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes,
I'm not looking for a condition, I was just looking for some leading indicators
of where it was going.
6687
In reply to a deficiency response, you indicated that the proposed
station would broadcast 67 hours per week of live‑to‑air programming and 32
hours voice‑track, for a total of 99 hours of programming per week. The regulated broadcast week is
126 hours, which leaves 27 hours out of the broadcast week unaccounted for
in your programming commitments.
6688
How do you plan to program these 27 hours that you have not
accounted for? Will you offer more
station‑produced programming or would you fill this gap with syndicated
programming or some other type of network
programming?
6689
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: We would
like to fulfil it with local programming.
In Peterborough we do police features that are just a two‑minute
feature ‑‑ or a one‑minute feature twice a day with the local police
officers speaking about issues that are currently relevant to the
demographic. So we would produce
those.
6690
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We
note your spoken work programming will also encompass 15 hours per week
with four hours of that being devoted to news. I also note that for the proposed
station your programming staff requirements would be as follows: One program director, one production
manager and one part‑time on‑air news person and morning show
co‑host.
6691
Do you believe these proposed staffing numbers are sufficient in order to
realize your proposed spoken word programming?
6692
MR. R. KIRSCHNER:
Commissioner Williams, you will note in the supplement that
we ‑‑
6693
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:
Actually, I'm just turning to it.
6694
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: All
right. We have adjusted
that.
6695
As a result of our consultants as well as the local steering committee
and the report issued by OK Radio, we recognized before we came here that we
might be relying a little bit too much on the volunteer population in Fort
McMurray. Recent trends there have
said volunteerism has dropped as well because of such a high demand in every
other realm.
6696
So we have made adjustments long before this week to make those
adjustments and now it looks like we are working at nine full‑time
equivalent. And we still really are
engaged with the community and the social agencies, so we really do believe we
are going to have a high concentration of volunteers, but we know we can operate
with nine full‑time equivalent.
6697
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All
right, that's good.
6698
What role will your volunteers play at your station and who will train
them?
6699
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Volunteers
will take many roles, right from on‑air, and we have some tentative commitments
for some local youth workers to play on‑air roles to enhance programming. There will certainly be members of the
social service agencies that will be stringers and reporters from different
areas in the community.
6700
Certainly the community involvement is where we will use those volunteers
to report back.
6701
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Who
will train these volunteers?
6702
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: They will
be trained by a volunteer coordinator in coordination with the program director
and under the station manager.
6703
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:
Regarding news, can you provide us with more information on how news
would be gathered and packaged for broadcast on your
station?
6704
For example, would that be the responsibility of your part‑time on‑air
news people or who?
6705
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Yes, that
is a part‑time person. And some of
that would be brokered news from radio news which has been recommended by UCB,
Touch has also referred to this service.
It is a Canadian news service used by UCB in Belleville, Ontario and
services most of the Christian industry.
We would use those for international and national news, and then the
rest, the remainder, would be locally produced by our news anchor and the
stringers as well.
6706
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In
your deficiency response you indicate that the proposed station will broadcast a
minimum of 15 percent Canadian content in Category 3 music per
week.
6707
What would be your reaction should the Commission impose this weekly
level as a condition of licence?
6708
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: We would
welcome that condition.
6709
In Peterborough I think we reported that we operate around
25 percent to a little bit less now. Our concern is that the Canadian
Christian content, there isn't as much available, although we are working hard
and producing as many local bands as possible, but we think that is no problem
to maintain that 15 percent easily.
6710
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In
response to a deficiency question regarding how many hours of religious spoken
word programming you intend to do, you noted in one response that the proposed
station intended to do five hours per week of religious programming, with
additional three hours of locally produced religious programming on
Sunday.
6711
However, in response to another question you indicated that the proposed
station intended to air no more than six hours of religious spoken word
programming.
6712
Could you take me through your program schedule and tell me which
programs are religious and their length?
And then we will develop the totals, I guess, of how many hours of
religious spoken programming there are.
6713
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: It's just
around six hours. I was trying to
work these numbers again last night.
6714
But the three hours of religious spoken will be done by the local
steering committee. We believe that
the churches and the religious community in Fort McMurray will do at least three
hours Sunday morning. That is yet
to be defined but it will be in the hands of the local steering
committee.
6715
The remainder will be ‑‑ again, this is potentially brokered. Sometimes these big agencies don't like
to go with low‑power FM stations so it's just a proposal that potentially we
could get Focus on the Family, which is a very family friendly program. There was a half an hour show twice a
week.
6716
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How
long was the first one?
6717
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: I'm
sorry. It's a half an hour program,
it will be aired once Saturday and once Sunday.
6718
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All
right.
6719
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Insight
for Living as well is a half an hour program, once Saturday and once
Sunday.
‑‑‑ Pause
6720
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Chuck
Swindoll I believe is actually a one‑minute feature. I think it has both, a one‑minute or a
short feature as well as a full half hour program. In the schedule I believe we have
programmed in one half hour once Saturday and
once Sunday.
6721
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So
what is that, 4.5 hours so far?
6722
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: I think
it's six.
6723
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm
just trying to establish the number of hours.
6724
You said five plus three, or in another case you said six, and we have
established 4.5?
6725
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: I have our
brokered programming ‑‑ if I can just start from the top again and see if
that clarifies, I'm sorry.
6726
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Sure. All right. Yes, no
problem.
6727
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Focus on
the Family will be a half an hour Saturday and Sunday, total one hour weekly;
Insight for Living, one half hour Saturday and Sunday, one hour weekly; Chuck
Swindoll, half an hour Saturday and Sunday, which will be one hour weekly; the
local church community, religious community, will be three hours on Sunday,
which will be three hours weekly; and then there is a one‑minute Walk Mueller
feature which airs once a day, which is a one‑minute ‑‑ seven minutes
weekly.
6728
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So
six hours and seven minutes would be a fair
characterization?
6729
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Yes,
sir.
6730
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All
right. Thank
you.
6731
Could you tell us a bit more about that religious programming? For example, are we talking about
station ‑‑ tell me a bit more about the station‑produced programming,
programming produced and programming produced by a third party for your
station.
6732
So what types of programming content would be featured in each of these
types of programs?
6733
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Well,
Lucid Noize is a program designed for youth social issues and it brings a
spiritual opinion to the table. We
use our street team and our volunteers and our high school correspondents to
gather information and they report on a series of questions related to the
issue.
6734
We bring in local experts like Dr. Dave and people that are authorities
in the particular area and they respond as we interact with the young people by
way of a cellphone, you know a contact line, internet forum we interact, so we
get quality data from the populace.
6735
The people who do the interviews are not even Christians necessarily, are
students, so it is not biased in any way with that regard. We would bring students in. Co‑op students are not Christian
students necessary and they come in, so it's unbiased, quite balanced
programming.
6736
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank
you.
6737
In Peterborough you have been on‑air since 2004?
6738
MR. R. KIRSCHNER:
Correct.
6739
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: A
similar demographic, a similar station. What has been your experience in the
support of the community of your undertaking?
6740
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: It has
been exceptional actually. The
social component, being a former social worker, police office, I have quite a
lot of connections with the community, so the social component is very well
received. In fact, with the Boards
of Education we are regularly involved in every level of the process of
education among young people. It
has been well received.
6741
We launched our radio station with pretty significant national
advertising, McDonald's, Subway, these things, when we launched as a low‑power
FM in 2004 and maintain those contacts for an entire year. Unfortunately, the lack of the ability
to afford BBM ratings last year, some of those big advertisers just go with the
top four in the market and we didn't have the BBM rating to prove what we were
doing.
6742
However, at every level in engagement relationship with people we are
welcomed into the community. Even
as a Christian station that is very significant, to go in the public school
board and be welcomed in every level of their programming. They know that we know the rules with
regards to proselytizing and things like that. So we are a welcome
voice.
6743
In fact, in this fall we actually have a full partnership with the local
arts school. There is a brand new
Mac Lab going into the school and we will be involved in formally training
students with regard to our Lucid Noize and journalistic efforts. So that is very exciting when you look
at local support.
6744
Do you want me to be honest?
6745
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
No.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
6746
MR. R. KIRSCHNER:
No.
6747
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We
wouldn't want any children in the audience to see you being honest. That would be the last thing we would
want.
6748
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: In all
honesty, to some degree we are a little too Christian for the
non‑Christians and not Christian enough for the Christians. That creates sometimes a financial
pressure, that some people would like to support us but they are afraid
what this other local Christian organization might think.
6749
So it is a real battle. This
is a hybrid station, but it is a very, very valid socially responsible media in
my opinion. It has some unique
situations and some unique problems, but we are bearing with those. There is tremendous community support
from churches and some people, so I think we are faring
well.
6750
It's not that if anybody didn't have $100,000 that they wanted to lend me
that we wouldn't receive, but we are doing okay.
6751
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let's
talk a bit about Lucid Noize and balanced
programming.
6752
You state in your application it is your intention to offer opportunities
to present various points of view.
You say you are too religious for some and not religious enough for
others.
6753
Do they all have the opportunity to present their point of view of Lucid
Noize?
6754
MR. R. KIRSCHNER:
Exactly. And we make sure
that there is that kind of balance.
As I say, even making sure that it is not Christian biased in our
reporters. We have people who are
not Christians on the steering committee of that to ensure that that is a proper
reflection of the community. We
think that is true Christianity.
6755
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You
have also stated that you will add a three‑minute feature that will air on
Sundays which will allow opportunity for various backgrounds to air their views
and education listeners on the various religious beliefs and
perspectives.
6756
How widely is that available?
Is that available to all religions of the world?
6757
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Yes, it
would have to be available to all if we were going to allow it to be
one.
6758
It hasn't been developed yet, but I am currently the Chair of the
Chaplaincy Committee in the local university, a secular university, and I have
contact with all those different religious organizations and that is something
we were looking at planning in the fall in Peterborough. We would certainly open that to everyone
and let the distinctives of that world religion be
presented.
6759
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So
this hasn't been introduced into the Peterborough
market yet?
6760
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: It hasn't
been introduced. We use our balance
through the internet, through our hotline.
That's how we do our balance right now, and through our non‑biased
reporters on the street. That's
something we looked at that we would bring in ‑‑
6761
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So
your early thoughts and planning and consultations of developing this proposed
three minute feature, could you tell us a bit more about it? Like how do you feel it will provide
balance? Maybe give us some
examples of what listeners in Fort McMurray might be able to
hear?
6762
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: I think as
we were going to focus not just Christian social services, that as part of our
mandate and introduction to those community groups we will offer them the
opportunity to share the distinctives of their
faith.
6763
I mean, in our KAOS Fort McMurray video, which you haven't seen today, we
used a Bahai woman to act and share and dialogue about who she is and what she
does. Every level of the religious
community is involved in this station, so we anticipate seeking them out, don't
we, Bruce.
6764
MR. TAYLOR: Yes, we have
extremely strong partnerships developed in the community amongst social
agencies. We run a homeless drop‑in
centre as a church that I am with.
We run a soup kitchen, we are involved with the homelessness initiatives,
with the racism initiatives in the community, and those relationships go far and
wide very deep.
6765
Our soup kitchen ministry that is run for instance in our church is a
great example of that. We have a
variety of churches in the community that are representative of that, including
some groups that would be considered non‑Christian. They come on together under one roof and
make that happen.
6766
I think it's the same kind of concept that we can use to ensure that we
have balance in some of these features.
6767
MR. D. KIRSCHNER: If I may,
Mr. Williams...?
6768
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:
Yes.
6769
MR. D. KIRSCHNER: Having
settled into Fort McMurray in '78, the church, it has been a strong ecumenical
community in Fort McMurray throughout the just about three decades I have been
there. As a founding member of the
Food Bank and the Fort McMurray homeless shelter, it was a mix of all the
denominations that came together and worked at the common ground issues and the
needs of the community. They
continue to work strongly in that sense towards making good common goals and
good basis for the community at large, and we would continue to do that and
support that type of input.
6770
We seek out the common ground rather than the differences of all
denominations.
6771
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm
glad we are talking in this area now because it is actually the next area I
planned on going into.
6772
We have heard much made of magnificent revenue opportunity and business
opportunity, that Fort McMurray could present numbers as high as $135 billion
over the next few years being spent in that area. Clearly there must be some tremendous
social issues caused by this boom environment and I would like to hear a bit of
a description as to some of the maybe not so nice things that are happening in
Fort McMurray and in how you propose your station could
help.
6773
MR. D. KIRSCHNER: That's a
good question. That I believe is
what will come into the local programming aspect that will be discerned by the
local steering committee.
6774
Things that we are faced ‑‑ I am a father of six children
there. I think we have collectively
about 75 years in the school system, five daughters and one son, and they have
been heavily involved in music and arts and sports since we started to have them
in '79. We touch on a lot of
children coming and going from our home and we get a good cross‑reference of
what the kids are up against and the peer pressures and such as
that.
6775
So our local programming can move towards addressing some of the things
such as latchkey children.
6776
The hours that the 14 year olds are working right now, the 12 years old
that are being solicited to work in Fort McMurray because of the need for
employees.
6777
Road rage is a big thing. We
have a fair bit of different driving cultures coming to Fort McMurray. As we have heard, we have grown 20,000
people in three years.
6778
There is a lot of ‑‑ as rich as we are as a community in monetary
sense, we are very poor. That
brings a lot of deficit wealth. It
divides families, it divides relationships in the sense that we all have an
opportunity to pursue what the monetary dollar will bring.
6779
You have heard that the average salary is $100,000 and I will tell you
the youth of the community or the average age of the community has that kind of
money. They are on the go
continuously and it takes them ‑‑ we work hard at trying to have one meal a
day at home, but I don't think the majority of the youth or people have that in
the region. So I mean there are
problems ‑‑ there is divisions that come with affluence and those are some
of the things we face in the community.
6780
There is a shortness of patience.
You line up wherever you got.
6781
There is pressure put on individuals in the retail sector because of the
volume of people that come through.
We have a transient population that is just about 10 percent of our
existing population, that although they are good people and such they are not at
home and they act differently and then tend to put pressures on the community
that they wouldn't necessarily in their own home town.
6782
So we work hard as a community to maintain a stability that helps grow
the industry but still helps maintain the community that is going to give us
stability to raise children and to bring up the next generation, if that answers
some of your questions.
6783
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:
That's part of it.
6784
MR. D. KIRSCHNER: All
right.
6785
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So
the latchkey children, child labour, road rage, line ups, broken homes
dreams.
6786
Is there much poverty, crime, drug issues also within that
community?
6787
MR. D. KIRSCHNER: I will ask
Bruce to touch on that because he is moreso in the downtown
core.
6788
MR. TAYLOR: Yes, certainly
those are growing issues that we have in the community. We see tons of people ‑‑ I
really, truly mean that, there is a lot of people that come to our community
because the streets are paved with gold they heard. You know, someone told them, "Go to
McMurray, you will get a job". They
might be 18, they could be 35, they could be 55.
6789
They show up in town, they have no money, they may or may not have their
high school education, they may not have any other notable skills to get
employment, and they know no one and have no place to live. There is an extreme amount of pressure
that is put on our community in that.
Communities the size of Fort McMurray, or similar in size ‑‑ maybe
like a Red Deer or Grande Prairie, tend to have anywhere from three to five
times the number of social agencies that Fort McMurray does because they have
grown slowly over time. So we have
a huge demand in our community for more socially oriented groups to try to find
out how we solve some of these problems in our community.
6790
What happens is, as soon as a guy is turned down on the street, he is
alone, doesn't know anybody so he gets lonely, well, next thing you know he is
making friends with the other people who are on the street. So what are they doing? Well, they are all getting drunk, they
are all doing crack, you name it, they are doing
it.
6791
So now we have a problem where there is a growing number of
addictions. We have people who are
homeless in our community that have never been homeless anywhere
else.
6792
So there is a real vast array of social issues that grow in there. We have young families that come to the
soup kitchen because they cannot afford necessarily to always pay for food,
because rent is so high. Yes, you
can go and make $15 an hour at Tim Horton's or at a variety of places in
the community, but can you live?
6793
So there are a real bunch of challenges out there in the community. I think there is a high loneliness
factor in the community. There is a
lot of depression.
6794
The wintertime is really hard on a lot of people with the reduced amount
of daylight. I grew up in town and
I can tell you that it was a problem them.
It has grown exponentially over the years. So I see a huge need in the community
for people to feel like they are loved and cared for and that they are important
and that the issues that they face need to be addressed and discussed in a very
open manner.
6795
So I see this particular format of radio being about to flexibly kind of
fit into that community and help meet some of those needs and partner with other
social agencies to try and assist in conquering those
issues.
6796
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:
That's where your 95 percent local programming initiatives will
come in.
6797
Give me some examples, some specific programs that deal with some of
these tremendous challenges that you have just described?
6798
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: One of the
things was the Straight Talk with the local police department. We have been involved in two separate
meetings with the RCMP, emphasizing what we are doing in Peterborough, and
although they couldn't state at that point that yes, that is something they
would go for, we have to go through a formal proposal, but they were certainly
excited by that opportunity to gain relationship with the
students.
6799
You will see in the package, the newsletter, the local involvement with
the Peterborough police department, we created a high school liaison
officer. It's a pimped up car that
it's got great music in it and it's got lights and it's got the road kit and
everything. Again, it's just to
make the police more palatable and more
approachable.
6800
You know, they go in with a big PT Cruiser because that is what the
local Chrysler dealer will give you and they look at it and laugh. I mean, how appropriate is that? Well, it was great because we got it for
free, but it just totally does not engage the culture.
6801
So those are initiatives we are after.
6802
The Lucid Noize is one of the most significant things. I mean, we had a boy just die in
Peterborough, it was just a complete accident, ran out in front of a car, and
the community was just devastated, a lot of the youth community. So what we said, "Well, let's just do a
Lucid Noize program, bring them in around the table and dialogue with
them". It wasn't about as much that
went on‑air, although we aired the feature and it was wonderful, but it was
about engaging 130 kids in this process and grieving.
6803
You do have a CD in your package, we referred to that, about that process
before.
6804
Again, to be truly community, like I have heard the other applicants talk
about, you need to jump on those opportunities and it sometimes isn't about,
"Well, can we sell that? Can we get
sponsorship for that?" Sometimes
you just have to bite the bullet and that's what you are here
for.
6805
That is what relationship is about.
That is what community is about.
Get out there and do something about it whichever way you
can.
6806
I know that's highly ideal, but they are some of the things that we
are trying to do and that is what would be involved with the local community,
social services allows you ‑‑ enables us to do.
6807
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: More
programs?
6808
MR. D. KIRSCHNER: Again, the
Events Guide and certainly the one‑minute social service
feature.
6809
You know, we play a couple of times a day a feature just exposing the
local agencies to the students. I
mean, if you walk through a high school guidance office you see racks and racks
and racks of literature that are just really beautiful, and there are 30 there
in September and there are 30 there in June. Nobody has ever touched it. It's about packaging, it's about
promotion, it's about marketing.
6810
If you are going to say something to a young person, say it in
music. If you are going to connect,
say it in music, say it in media, and you have a 10 times better chance of
it getting connected. Put it on a
piece of paper because that is the way you have done it the last 30 years and it
will still be there and it will never be engaged.
6811
So these programs, through local people, local interviews, will just
expose the help lines, expose the help agencies to the young people. Again, it's in a way that they can
receive it and see it as valid in their lives.
6812
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How
busy is your Food Bank?
6813
MR. D. KIRSCHNER: It is very
busy. I did some numbers the other
night and I think they are probably doing 20 hampers a day to supplement income
to different people who are working and not working.
6814
They have a good process.
They have been going since 1983.
But it is well used.
6815
And when I say it has a good process, is they watch that the repeat user
is directed somewhere else for assistance rather than enabling them just to
use it as a resources, rather than ‑‑ it helps them to try to raise their
bottom and bring out their best potential and see where they can help themselves
better.
6816
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So
would your station work with organizations like the Food Banks to raise their
profile and their resources?
6817
MR. D. KIRSCHNER: We
certainly would. There are a number
of weeks that Fort McMurray has, it has Drug Awareness Week, Alberta Forest
Week, Education Week, Public Health Week; Crime Prevention Week, Social Services
Week, et cetera, and we would come in and assist them in supporting them and
forwarding their cause during those weeks and any other time that they have
specific food drives, which is at Christmas and such, we would do on‑air
broadcasting and such.
6818
I don't know if Rick mentioned also, but the broadcasting to the schools
as they come out for lunch, come out after school and such like that,
we would look at doing some programming there that might assist them and
getting on home to do their homework or a healthier lifestyle, just in the
broadcasting process.
6819
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: I'm sorry,
if I could just interject one more thing?
6820
I didn't really speak about that, the high school reporters. That is something we have developed in
Peterborough and there is a report from every high school twice a day ‑‑
sorry, one high school featured every day what is happening in the local high
school, just whatever.
6821
Also a reporter from the local university, also from Sir Sandford Fleming
College. This works on a two‑week
cycle and so there is a contemporary report at 11:40 every day and 4:40 every
day what is happening on the local campuses.
6822
Another feature is Dr. Dave Overholt. He is the youth cultural specialist in
Hamilton I referred to. He just
does principal talks on Coping as a Young Person, an excellent feature that we
have produced.
6823
There is another feature Walt Mueller which is Understanding Today's
Youth Culture. It is an American
program but the stats are real and relevant and it is helping adults understand
the post‑modern culture we live in and how to understand this creature that is
their adolescent or their child.
You know, what are the going through? It is a very exciting feature that a lot
of people really enjoy on our station.
6824
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank
you, gentlemen.
6825
I think now we will talk a bit now on the guidelines on ethics as a
condition of licence.
6826
As we just discussed, you will be broadcasting some religious
programs. The guidelines on ethics
in a religious policy deal with the solicitation of funds and programming
practices.
6827
What would be your reaction to the Commission imposing these as a
condition of licence?
6828
MR. R. KIRSCHNER:
Practically would that me that we can't go on‑air and ask for money, or
what does practically that mean?
6829
COMMISSIONER CRAM: It means
you can't threaten damnation if you don't give money.
6830
MR. R. KIRSCHNER:
Oh.
6831
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We
can do that, but you can't.
6832
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Actually,
I heard that.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
6833
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: We would
fully agree with that. In fact, the
policy in Peterborough has been that we don't solicit funds for ourselves. Most Christian operations in Canada,
that is a major part of their financial revenue stream is doing
share‑a‑thons. The verdict is still
out for us whether we need to do that or not, but we have had a policy that we
won't go on and solicit money for ourselves, we will solicit money for the
social service agencies or the organizations.
6834
As I said, the verdict is still out on that, but we won't threaten
anybody.
6835
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All
right. Thank you. We will talk a bit about your proposed
initiatives now.
6836
Besides directing $1,000 per year to workshops to assist with talent
development and $800 per year to performing arts camp, I note you have proposed
to direct $500 a month to KAOS Concert to develop a monthly show which would
total $6,000 a year.
6837
However, in your January 9th letter you indicate that you will direct
$5,800 a year.
6838
Could you please clarify the amount that will be directed to the
Concert Series development?
6839
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: We did set
a rough budget of $500 a month.
6840
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So
$6,000 would be the figure then?
6841
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Yes,
sir.
6842
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All
right. As indicated above, we note
that KAOS Concert Series development will be responsible for hosting and
developing the monthly talent shows and that amount would cover operation costs
associated with hosting the concert, including honorarium to musicians
performing.
6843
Could you tell us what your involvement in the Concert Series is? Do you have an ownership
position?
6844
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: No, we
don't own it. As a matter of fact,
I am an unpaid volunteer for King's Kids Promotions. There is no money. The radio station simply puts on this
concert to, again, surface young, local talent. Some of them are not very good musicians
as of yet, but they have a hint of passion ‑‑ a lot of passion and a hint
of talent. We give them an
opportunity to play.
6845
We have done this actually for about 14 years. It was called "The Gas Show". Opposite to "The Gong Show" when
somebody came out and you gonged them and made them look like a fool, "The Gas
Show" is a guaranteed applause.
That means, it doesn't matter how bad you are, we applaud your effort to
get up there on the stage and try to do
something.
6846
So we have continued that and we believe there is great merit. I mean, everybody wants to jump on the
next great artist. Everybody wants
to put $10,000 into the next great artist and give him a CD and say, "Look at
who we broke." But I believe like
panning for little specks of gold, if you go through hundreds of young, local
people, try to help them into flame that little trickle of hope they have in
them, or the little bit of talent, that that does far more for Canadian talent
development than just jumping on the next big thing.
6847
So it doesn't look like a lot, but we consistently create an opportunity
for young people to play and applaud them and encourage them and steer them
maybe to the next level of their growth, that that is going to be much more
significant in the landscape of Canadian talent in the future than is the
$100,000 into the next record for one group.
6848
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We
practice that to some degree in the broadcasting industry
ourselves.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
6849
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How
will your performing musicians be chosen?
6850
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: In that
feature just young people have to just apply. They just have to apply, usually four or
five ‑‑
6851
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: For
them to apply, how would they hear about it? How would you promote
it?
6852
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Oh, it
would be on‑air, like "Come to the KAOS Concert Series". It's just come and apply. Call Katey at
kaosvideo.com.
6853
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would
you use other media, posters or internet?
6854
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Posters,
yes. High schools, our street
teams, poster‑it, flyer‑it, viral marketing.
6855
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Could
you give us a breakdown or an overview of your other proposed initiatives, the
workshops and performing arts camp?
6856
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: This past
year in Peterborough it was actually American Kingdom Bound said "We will fund
money for Canadian talent." So they
said "Would you run a performing arts camp?"
6857
So we did that for 75 students.
They came in for the weekend, we brought in local artists and
professional artists that were quality.
We just developed entry level, advanced level guitar, vocal, just
different aspects of the musical industry.
6858
Then there were a couple of bands that actually came and we put them onto
a promoter and an artist developer, so the varying levels depending on who
comes, that is the kind of thing.
So we create either a one‑day event, or in Peterborough's case it was a
weekend event.
6859
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All
right. Thank
you.
6860
Let's talk a bit about possible synergies with your Peterborough
station.
6861
In your January 9th letter you indicate that there will be some synergies
with KAOS 99.5 in Peterborough.
6862
Could you elaborate on the extent of this and are you also expecting to
realize any other synergies between your proposed station and the Peterborough
station?
6863
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: I think
some of the programming like the Dr. Dave features, the Lucid Noize features
could be similar, but we would have to get local responses, obviously, to the
issues.
6864
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The
issues may be different in the two communities.
6865
MR. R. KIRSCHNER:
Right. Exactly. So it would be a similar format, but
local characters.
6866
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would
any of your existing staff in Peterborough be involved in, say, the training or
recruitment or establishment of the proposed
station?
6867
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: As a
matter of fact, yes. We have
some ‑‑ our staff will be given an opportunity if they would like
to come to Fort McMurray.
6868
We have a Fort McMurray young person, our afternoon drive host right now,
and so there would be some synergies and certainly he is a local boy. He has been on here, trained in CJOK and
KYX in Fort McMurray, and he is a great young talent and he could possibly come
back and train some locals as well.
6869
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That
brings us to the higher cost side of Fort McMurray.
6870
Can you explain to us how your business plan takes into account the
relatively high cost of living, zero apartment vacancy rate for example? For example, are you expecting to have
to pay higher salaries or living allowances or ‑‑ I don't know. I was in business in Yellowknife when it
was a high‑cost area ‑‑ I guess it still is ‑‑ and we actually had to
buy houses and trailers for our employees and rent them out at a reduced
rate. That was our entry, I guess,
into the real estate business inadvertently. We didn't want to be in the real estate
business.
6871
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Yes, a
couple of considerations there.
6872
We do admit that some of the people going into Christian broadcasting
have a passion for the vision and so they are desirous to work for a little bit
less. It is also a policy of KAOS
in Peterborough to not make the Christian broadcasters poor. I don't think that is honouring to God
or to anybody to make them work for nothing. However, we do realize that there is a
cost of doing business.
6873
So we are counting on a passion for the industry even more than a regular
passion for radio. We have also
made exceptions for
6874
MR. D. KIRSCHNER:
Commissioner Williams, every business new and existing is facing the same
challenges in Fort McMurray relative to hiring, staff retention and the costs of
living that we are faced with there.
I see on a regular basis and know of national western businesses, as well
as small businesses, that are struggling and are closing their doors because of
the area's ‑‑ the growth impact there.
6875
I think that individuals ‑‑ I have found that in radio and the arts,
as well as in aviation, that people who have a passion for that job, they will
start wherever.
6876
But, as Rick said, our intention ‑‑ and with my staff, I have 35
staff, I always try to get them a little bit above the marketplace wage, as well
as give them a better ‑‑ a great quality of work site that addresses their
personal needs and assists them in their personal needs as
well.
6877
As we have mentioned, we have a cross‑section of letters and support from
the community from business, government, church, social and individual agencies,
so we have been there ‑‑ or we have thousands of people connected. We are
well‑connected.
6878
My own business and family has connected seven new employees from Ontario
to different businesses this year.
That is what the businesses are faced with. There are people coming in and you have
to facilitate their presence in the community.
6879
There are vacancies in Fort McMurray and there are people who are willing
to help people to get established, because we need
community.
6880
Of course we invite families first because the idea of the transient
worker isn't as good for the community as it is to have families come and root
themselves. In the early '80s
people came for one year, but they are still there today. That's what we hope for in these new
people coming. And they are and can
be facilitated through the connections that we have in the
community.
6881
Again, we will try to keep their wages a little bit higher and move them
forward. My staff is in the $70,000
or $60,000 to $100,000 range. They
are married, they are having children, they are buying homes. You can do it. They have done it in Yellowknife, they
did it in Toronto, they have done it in Vancouver over the decades. You make it work. It's all proportionate to the wage. It's just they have 35 year
mortgages now, not 25 year.
6882
So we believe that we are as connected as anyone and we see success in
new people coming to every industry in the community.
6883
One idea we have, too, that seems to be working, I have been developing
it over the last five years, is we train up our own staff. We have a pool of truck drivers, for
instance, junior, intermediate and senior level and we have always ‑‑ we
have an educator on staff, a trainer on staff, and we just have three or four
drivers on a regular basis to replace the ones that can go at any day. We draw from a source more junior than
our company.
6884
And right now our company as well is able to compete with ‑‑
basically all the small businesses in Fort McMurray is competing with the major
oil industry and they are coming forward with increases and such to do so. I think in the advertising sense the
budgets are showing that they can do that as well.
6885
So we create our own pool, we pay well and we assist people to get
settled. It's happening and it
will continue to happen in Fort McMurray. I think with our connection in the
community we can do that in radio as well.
6886
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank
you. We are
nearing ‑‑
6887
MR. TAYLOR: Just to add to
that ‑‑
6888
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh,
please.
6889
MR. TAYLOR: ‑‑ if you would let me, I think we also have commitment
from the religious community to this initiative, whereby if we are required to
bring in staff from outside that the most difficult phase for new staff to the
community is actually that first few months of getting settled and figuring out,
you know, are you going to find a roommate and share an apartment or what are
you going to do. Can you get into
affordable housing programs which are available in the
community.
6890
We have a commitment from people within the religious community that they
would be open to opening up a room or two in their existing housing for some of
those people because they believe in the vision of what we are
doing.
6891
So I think that gives us an advantage as well where these people, their
rooms are empty right now because they are not in the idea of just renting out
rooms for renting out rooms. They
don't want that, but they would be willing to do it to help this
initiative. So I think that is a
positive.
6892
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All
right.
6893
With one more question we have reached the end of my portion of
this. My colleagues may of course
have more.
6894
I imagine you have heard part of this hearing, if not all of it, how
many new radio stations do you believe Fort McMurray could support at this
time?
6895
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Well, I
think everyone has really underestimated the potential in our financial
projections what is really available there.
6896
I think the short answer is ‑‑ again, I am not an experienced
broadcaster like the wealth of knowledge around this table, but it would certain
seem by the rationale I have heard that it could support two high‑power and one
low‑power station.
6897
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So
that would be, I presume, your station or a similar one, and any of the other
high‑power applications?
6898
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Depending
of course on the formats and everything that they line up in
their ‑‑
6899
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:
Yes. They have indicated
Classic Hits and ‑‑
6900
MR. R. KIRSCHNER:
Yes.
6901
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All
right.
6902
That concludes my portion of the questioning, Mr. Chair. Thank you very
much.
6903
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Commissioner Cram...?
6904
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank
you.
6905
Did you send a memo out to each other saying "Wear green
today?"
6906
MR. R. KIRSCHNER:
No.
6907
COMMISSIONER CRAM:
No?
6908
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: It's the
only shirts we had left.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
6909
COMMISSIONER CRAM: I'm
looking at your revenue projections, on the revised one on page 4, and
there is an "annual Sheraton".
6910
What is that? It is an
annual donation?
6911
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: It should
say "Share‑a‑thon", I apologize.
6912
COMMISSIONER CRAM: I'm
wondering if the Sheraton Hotel is giving you $10,000 a
year.
6913
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Well, I
will approach them.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
6914
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: But it
should say "Share‑a‑thon" and really it's a caption for meaning that we will
anticipate we are going to get sponsorship from local
churches.
6915
COMMISSIONER CRAM: All
right.
6916
Program sales. Today you
said it's not firmed up and you said there were problems or there are
perceptions that low‑power is not an effective vehicle. But do you have brokered sales on your
Peterborough station?
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: We do have
a couple. Actually, no, there was
just advertising from local features that we are ‑‑ it was just
advertising. They purchased air
time. So we have no brokered sales
at this point.
6917
COMMISSIONER CRAM: All
right. So what would go if you
couldn't get any brokered sales?
What would go in your programming?
What would your contingency be then?
6918
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: That we
get the sales people to make up the difference of $30,000.
6919
COMMISSIONER CRAM: All
right. And what do your sales
people do in Peterborough when you are not part of BBM? Have you done surveys, things like that,
to find out your share?
6920
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: We have an
unofficial kind of hint of what our share is. Of course we can't use that in
advertising.
6921
But we just really emphasize letters of successful advertisers, we
try to put the while hat on and say, "Look at all the great things we are doing
for the community", and that's pretty much all we can do.
6922
We are anticipating and projecting and working hard to be part of the BBM
ratings this fall and we are just praying we will have a pleasant surprise
there. That's what we are hoping
for.
6923
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Rick
Kirschner, you have such enthusiasm and such creativity, but this is going to be
in a place where you want. How are
you going to sort of transfer your experience, your creativity, how are you
going to transfer it to Fort McMurray so that if we gave you a licence you could
have the same kind of station that sounds very
interesting?
6924
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: I think
that I will spend a little bit of time in Fort McMurray. I have spent lots of time prior to this
process, certainly four separate times within the last year interacting with
people on the street and things like that.
6925
I think there has been a lot of transference of enthusiasm already, but
also a seeking out of like‑minded individuals. There are many people in Fort McMurray
with ‑‑ as a matter of fact, I think it is one of the most entrepreneurial
and creative communities I have ever seen, and so I think there has already been
some synergies and relationships developed by people with as much or more
passion than I have for these people.
6926
So I just think I am just really part of a team of a bunch of people
that will make this happen.
6927
We also have some transference happening in Peterborough right now with a
Fort McMurray local who is working with our team who is part of what we are
doing there, and we just don't know where he will go, but I know he likes home
and there are lots of opportunities.
6928
COMMISSIONER CRAM: It's not
to say that you, Mr. Dave Kirschner are not creative and energetic and
enthusiastic, or you Reverend Taylor, it's just that Rick, if I can call you
that, you are just bubbling over with the enthusiasm and some
creativity.
6929
Anyway, thank you very much.
6930
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
6931
MR. D. KIRSCHNER:
Commissioner Cram, if I may comment on that, your question to Rick, I am
a resource expediter to every major resource in the region. The name of my company is McMurray
Serv‑U Expediting. What my job has
been for the last 30 years is to find the resource in Fort McMurray first
to assist these companies to grow.
They are the major companies of the region. I still have the contracts with them and
such.
6932
And I have some question as to the possibility of finding that resource
in Fort McMurray too, and I pondered it heavily over the last three months and
again this week, but I believe that with the connection in the community and the
resource in itself to assist the community, that those people will be flushed
out.
6933
Again, having the letters of support from the broad section of the
community, and I have to say, those people have to come forward in very
short time. They have come forward
with their letters of support in our initial meetings, but as a resource
expediter I still believe that it is such a resource and that it would come
forward and it is worthy of pursuing.
6934
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank
you.
6935
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
6936
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr.
Kirschner, or maybe your two other panel members may be in a much better
position to answer the question that yourself because it is really towards Fort
McMurray.
6937
How many other significant faiths are there in Fort
McMurray?
6938
MR. TAYLOR: That's always an
interesting question. I guess it
depends on your perspective.
6939
The way I would look at it is, what we would call major faith groups
would be certainly the Evangelical Christian group, the Catholic Christian
group, there would be the Mormons, the Jehovah Witnesses, there is a significant
Muslim community. Those would sort
of be the major groups.
6940
I think there are, you know, certainly a variety of First Nations
variance in there, including Christian First Nations community, as well as
certainly some smaller groups mixed in.
6941
It is a very diverse community that is represented by people from well
over 50 different countries in the world, so I'm sure there are tons of little
groups that we aren't quite fully aware of yet as well.
6942
THE CHAIRPERSON: You are not
including the Catholic in your definition of Christian?
6943
MR. TAYLOR: Certainly. Like I said, the Catholic Christian
community.
6944
THE CHAIRPERSON: I was born
Catholic and they have told me all my life I was a
Christian.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
6945
MR. TAYLOR: Certainly,
no. I did say the Catholic
Christian community, just making a difference there that depending on people's
perspective on how they define Christianity. I know some Catholics that tend to tell
me I should get onboard with real Christianity. You know, I know some non‑Catholics that
would tell the Catholics the same thing.
6946
We are quite ecumenical, especially in our group here even, on that
matter and certainly they are a large portion of our community and we would see
them as part of this initiative.
6947
THE CHAIRPERSON: How aware
are the other denominations of your project here? Have you been talking, say with the
Muslims, if there is a Jewish community as well in Fort
McMurray?
6948
MR. TAYLOR:
Yes.
6949
THE CHAIRPERSON: Are they
aware of your project?
6950
MR. TAYLOR: I think
significant portions are aware. One
of the difficulties that we do have ‑‑ and initiatives like this I
think help us, is communicating with some of the other groups. Not all of them come to some
events. They tend to
separate themselves.
6951
So, yes, there has been a little more difficulty communicating heavily
with, say, the Muslims. There has
been some communication with them, but I wouldn't call it significant at this
point, because they do try and separate themselves from
us.
6952
We would like to use mediums like this that we can bring together a
common positive message ‑‑ that applies just as much from them as it does
from us ‑‑ to bring together a little more common ground for the community
to work together on something.
6953
THE CHAIRPERSON: If we grant
we a licence and they knock at your door, would you be open to do programming
with them?
6954
MR. D. KIRSCHNER: By all
means. The Mormon community in
particular are very family oriented and very strong community members. I know the two Bishops personally and we
talk on a regular basis about the challenges our youth and the youth of the
community are faced with.
6955
We certainly would be open.
Two heads are better than one and the more, the merrier. Like the better perspective we are going
to get and the better product we will be able to produce.
6956
THE CHAIRPERSON: Earlier
today we heard Harvard Broadcasting.
While they were describing their programming format they were talking
main AC during the day and then more Pop or Rock‑driven during the
evening.
6957
When I heard you talking, you were talking almost in the same terms about
being AC during the day and more Pop, Rock during the
evening.
6958
How different do you think your programming schedule is from a standard
commercial radio project like the one Harvard put before
us?
6959
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Mr.
Chairman, I have never done this in seven and a half years on this Panel and I
apologize, but I had too much coffee this morning and I need a two‑minute
break.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
6960
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: And I will
join you.
6961
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Would
you mind if I just stepped outside for two minutes.
6962
THE CHAIRPERSON: All
right.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
6963
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: You can
think about your answer.
6964
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Nature
calls.
6965
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
That's your theme for the next one.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
‑‑‑ Pause
6966
THE CHAIRPERSON: So are you ready to answer my
question?
6967
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Yes, sir.
I believe we are the last adult contemporary in the day, I apologize if I
didn't make that clear. I mean, it
is more Hot AC which is on its way to CHR pop. And then the evening will actually be a
little bit more rock than it would be, you know, then just pop in the
evening. So a little bit
more ‑‑ quite a bit more rock in the evening.
6968
THE CHAIRPERSON: So one of the questions that I asked to all of the
applicants that have appeared here was will we be skewing more towards the male
or the female? I suspect with the
type of music that you are planning it is going to be more towards the male
gender rather than the female gender.
6969
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: No, we anticipate approximately a 60/40 split, female
being 60 per cent of what we are going for.
6970
THE CHAIRPERSON: And what will be the median age
of..?
6971
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Twenty‑nine years old.
6972
THE CHAIRPERSON: Twenty‑nine years old. As you know, there is another applicant
for a religious radio station, Touch Canada. They appeared ‑‑ I don't know if
you were here when they appeared ‑‑
6973
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Yes.
6974
THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ for Grande Prairie. I suspect the radio programming plan
that they will propose for Fort McMurray will be similar. And they are talking about contemporary
gospel music and their base music usage is also subcategory
35.
6975
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Okay.
6976
THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you qualify the music genre that you will be playing
as also meeting that definition of contemporary gospel
music?
6977
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Yes, sir.
I don't want to define for Mr. Hunsperger. I have listened to that and I did have
the same question. I believe, and
he will clarify for us, that by gospel he means overtly evangelical in
nature. In other words, God has a
good plan for your life, come to him.
6978
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is what he ‑‑ yes.
6979
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Whereas, some of our music ‑‑ more of our music
will just be traditional Judiah (ph) Christian themes, being hey when you fall
down get back up. That is a
biblical theme, it is a Christian theme, but it is also a Muslim theme, you
know. So I think his is a little
more overtly evangelical and I think that is wonderful. As I said, there will be some of our
overtly Christian evangelical songs as well.
6980
The songs will be as they are sonically a great song and a song that is
doing well in North America. We
will play that song whether it has an overtly evangelical or gospel theme or
not. We won't apologize for
that. It is a Christian licence we
are applying for.
6981
MR. TAYLOR: And if I could just add to that discussion briefly. Certainly, when we talk about a 60/40
split female to male, you know, part of that mix is the fact that we believe
that the daytime programming would swing a little more towards the female
engender, whereas maybe a lot of the evening programming would actually be a
little more even.
6982
And the other thing is, even with that median age of 29, and it is a
reminder I like to give people, if we talk an average age in that area in the
community that means for every 40‑year old there is a 20‑year old, for every
50‑year old there is two 20s. There
is a huge young population and so certainly, especially in the evenings and
especially weekend evenings, we would swing to that younger population that
really makes a predominant part of the culture up that we would be trying to
work with.
6983
THE CHAIRPERSON: I seek your comments on my last question, is if the
Commission was to grant you a licence and also grand a licence to Touch Canada,
could you both go through and succeed?
6984
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: I believe we could both succeed and I would believe
there would have to be collaboration in doing that, because there is similar
play lists. As I said before, there
is not that many contemporary Christian artists. So we would just have to really work on
in collaborating. The same kind of
initiative happens in Peterborough market.
We have Life 100.3 broadcasting a repeater station in our community. I program around him, you know, and he
has a top seven at 7:00, you know, he has a top eight at 8:00 and I want to do a
call‑in top seven I do it at 7:00.
6985
So I think there has to be some synergies and I think the Christian
broadcasters are coming together and collaborating more than ever and that is
certainly my prayer. So I think we
could work together.
6986
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Well, as you know, we are giving you an
opportunity to sum up and tell us in a few minutes why you should be granted the
licence to serve Fort McMurray, so it is to
you.
6987
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, King's Kids steering committee has been working in Fort
McMurray for a long time, even prior to a call for applications. This has been considered and, of course,
the call for applications has made us speed up our
process.
6988
King's Kids has demonstrated from letters of intervention and other
letters referred to in the oral presentations that we have exceptional local
community support for this undertaking: local MP, MLA, mayor, school board,
religious social services, RCMP and businesses are well represented in their
support.
6989
MR. TAYLOR: King's Kids has a sound, realistic business plan having
demonstrated, even in this hearing, an understanding of the ever changing market
in Fort McMurray and a willingness to adjust and be flexible in order to be
successful.
6990
MR. D. KIRSCHNER: King's Kids has a long‑standing history of Canadian
Talent Development and letters of support testifying to their sincere commitment
to artist development, a commitment which has borne fruit in the lives of more
than one Canadian artist.
6991
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: King's Kids have current partnerships established to
introduce new Christian talent in a well‑established local festival,
interPLAY.
6992
MR. TAYLOR: King's Kids has demonstrated a need for this format to
expose, support and strengthen local social service agencies who are often
overwhelmed in this fast‑paced, high‑stressed community.
6993
MR. D. KIRSCHNER: King's Kids has outlined a unique philosophy and
approach to the market with a Christian radio format and provided letters from
the religious, business and Canadian talent communities validating many of the
benefits for business, religious groups and artists, some of whom are not
considered religious at all. This
approach will draw more listeners to our station, both Christian and
non‑Christian.
6994
MR. R. KIRSCHNER: King's Kids believe we have a transcendent cause to
expose hope to Fort McMurray through relevant music, talk and action. We pray we have justified the need and
demonstrated the support for this unique radio initiative. If the Commission deems our proposal
insufficient to warrant a speciality licence for Fort McMurray, we recommend you
consider any other applicant proposing a Christian music
service.
6995
Our research for the market has been personal, not arms‑length surveys,
by independent brokers over months of personal interaction with the people of
the community of Fort McMurray, two meetings with the police departments, over
45 high school teachers, hundreds of students, business members, church
communities, street people, parents, local bands and promoters, college staff
and even Tim Horton's employees.
Radio is about community, about people, about people touching people in
relationships. King's Kids research
has been on the ground level in relationship with the people we intend to
serve.
6996
Thank you very much.
6997
THE CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, thank you.
6998
We will take a real 10‑minute break, so the others have a chance
to.. And we will do the next
application immediately after. So
we will resume at 11:45.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 11:35
a.m.
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 11:45
a.m.
6999
THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Secretary.
7000
THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7001
We will now proceed with Item 17 on the agenda, which is an application
by Newcap Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio
programming undertaking in Fort McMurray.
7002
The new station would operate on frequency 110.5 MHz (channel 263B) with
an effective radiated power of 20,000 watts (non‑directional antenna/antenna
height of 54 metres).
7003
Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Robert Steele who will introduce his
colleagues. And I would like to say
for the record that the applicant has filed some revised financial information
which will be place on the application file and available in the examination
room. Mr.
Steele.
PRESENTATION /
PRÉSENTATION
7004
MR. STEELE: Well, good morning, still I guess. For the record, I am Rob Steele,
President and Chief Executive Officer of Newcap Radio and I would like to
introduce my colleagues. On your
far right are David Murray, VP of operations; Rob Mise, Director of Programming
for Newcap; Glenda Spenrath, Assistant GM of Newcap's Alberta Radio Group; Mark
Maheu, Executive Vice‑President and Chief Operating Officer of Newcap Radio; and
Al Anderson, GM of the Alberta Radio Group.
7005
Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, Commission staff, we at Newcap are
very pleased to present this application for a new FM radio station to serve
Fort McMurray. And as the
Commission has heard, the Fort McMurray with Buffalo region is a vibrant,
growing community whose current population is 75,000, could well top 100,000
within the decade.
7006
Our research suggests a clear interest on the part of Fort McMurray
residents for greater format choice.
Almost one in five say they are not at all satisfied with Fort McMurray
radio, while only 14 per cent are 100 per cent satisfied.
7007
Applicants in this hearing have proposed variations on three different
potential formats to serve these listeners and the health of the local economy
should allow the Commission to licence at least one new commercial
service.
7008
We believe that our application is worthy of your approval both because
of its specifics and more generally because of what Newcap as a company can
bring to Fort McMurray. We are one
of the few Canadian operators that remain equally committed to growth and in
smaller and larger markets in Canada.
Small and mid‑market radio is and will remain our core business, we
believe we are pretty good at it and our listeners and our shareholders seem to
agree.
7009
MR. MAHEU: Attracting retaining listeners to radio is not exactly getting
easier. Picking the right format
and complimenting it with the right kind and level of local news and information
programming is essential, especially when the competition comes less and less
from other stations in the market and more and more from radio's competitors,
iPods, internet and, particularly in Fort McMurray, satellite
radio.
7010
Newcap is proposing a classic hits station for Fort McMurray. Our reason for choosing classic hits is
simple, the research. Our format
research in Fort McMurray evaluated eight format options, 1980s, 1990s, active
rock, CHR, classic hits, classic rock, country, Hot AC and Soft AC. The research is projecting a 27 per cent
share for classic hits. Classic
hits is going to generate the most interest of the formats we tested. Half of the respondents to our survey
expressed positive interest in classic hits. A quarter expressed strong positive
interest, ie. they would listen to classic hits all the
time.
7011
At present, CKYX FM is the station that comes closest to serving this
need, but less than 40 per cent of listeners overall, and those with positive
interest in classic hits, associate CKYX with the format. Half of both groups cannot identify any
station with classic hits.
7012
As a result, classic hits is by far the largest format opportunity in
Fort McMurray today. The station's
audience will be predominantly 35 ‑ 54. Among 18 ‑ 64s overall the station
should rank a strong third in the market, ensuring no undue impact on O.K.
stations.
7013
The classic hit station that we propose for Fort McMurray will feature a
wide variety of music and while the vast majority of the music will be from the
1970s, 1980s and 1990s, 10 per cent will be current and most of that will be
Canadian. Fort McMurray FM will
combine the best of the past and present to create a compelling radio
station.
7014
Now, to give you a better feel for the station, we have a short audio
presentation.
‑‑‑ Audio presentation /
Présentation audio
7015
MS SPENRATH: Both before and after we filed our application 15 months ago
Al and I spent a lot of time in Fort McMurray speaking with residents, business
owners and public officials. The
growth and changes in just 18 months is astounding. What hasn't changed though is Fort
McMurray residents' thirst for a strong new source of news and information on
local radio, live and when it happens.
7016
With no local TV station and a small local daily newspaper Fort McMurray
residents rely heavily on radio for local news and information. So given only two local radio stations,
both under one owner, the addition of strong, new, alternative local news and
information sources is even more important. Fort McMurray FM will significantly
increase the diversity and availability of local news and information
programming. We will provide 53
newscasts throughout the week, including weekends, all of them sourced and
presented by our staff in Fort McMurray.
7017
With the booming oil industry and issues associated with local growth
there is little doubt that there is enough local news to warrant such
coverage. Fort McMurray FM plans to
offer our listeners 75 per cent local content in all newscasts with the
remaining 25 per cent being relevant news and information from Alberta, from
Canada and from the rest of the world.
Each newscast will run approximately four minutes, inclusive of sports
and weather, for a total of three and a half hours of news content
weekly.
7018
Considering Fort McMurray's isolated geographic location, community
presence will need to be an integral part of a successful radio station. Eight daily 60‑second features called
Fort McMurray Today will profile upcoming and recent community events. We are confident these capsules will
soon become an important source of information on the what, where and how to get
more involved in the community.
This will add another hour of intensely local information dedicated to
Fort McMurray.
7019
Frequent unscheduled updates breaking news, weather, traffic, road and
forest fire conditions, together with music and other commentary, will bring our
minimum total spoken word to 13 and a half hours.
7020
MR. ANDERSON: Our employees, and in particular those on the air, will be
representative of the Fort McMurray mosaic and will focus their stories to
reflect the reality of Canada's culture, ethnic, racial and Aboriginal
diversity. In addition, we will
report on news that is very important to the community as a whole, being
sensitive to the cultural nuances of the local population. The station's news director will
supervise a team of two reporters in Fort McMurray.
7021
In addition to the local news team focusing on Fort McMurray news, the
station will benefit from Newcap's 40 existing news people on the ground and
behind the mics in the rest of Alberta.
7022
Connected through today's technologies stories of national significance
and those relevant to Western Canada can be instantly shared by our stations
right across the country.
Consistent with Newcap's long tradition of providing intensely local
service, this new station will make a difference to the
community.
7023
MR. MAHEU: Our Canadian Talent Development plan is specifically designed
to expose emerging artists and stars from the Fort McMurray area in
Alberta. We have proposed a package
of Canadian Talent Development totalling $525,000 over the term of the licence,
spending $75,000 in each of the first seven years of the licence
term.
7024
Now, $37,500 each year for the first seven years of the licence will go
to fund the initiatives of the Radio Starmaker Fund; $37,500 each year will go
to fund local Canadian talent initiatives within the Fort McMurray school
district. Funds will be used for
the purchase of instruments, the development of music curriculums and music
festivals, including scholarships.
7025
Now, the economic impact on the existing stations. Ensuring new licensees do not have an
undue impact on incumbents is an important objective of the Commission's
licensing process. At Newcap we
deliberately design our applications and launch new stations to ensure and share
growth rather than just slicing up the existing pie. In fact, we estimate that only 30 per
cent of our year‑one revenues will be generated from existing radio advertising
budgets primarily from local retailers simply unable to effectively reach Fort
McMurray FM's potential target audience.
7026
Seventy per cent of the first‑year revenue is going to come from other
sources, 40 per cent of it is going to come from new radio advertisers drawn
because of the distinct audience that the radio station we are proposing will
attract or from those who presently advertise in newspaper, outdoor advertising
and other media, but will find them expensive when measured against the
effectiveness of Fort McMurray FM.
7027
Thirty per cent will come from expanded radio advertising budgets. While Fort McMurray FM's audience share
will largely come from the existing private stations, our revenue will not. Indeed, our estimated first‑year portion
of $300,000 from existing radio budgets could largely be accommodated through
current natural market growth alone.
7028
Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, we believe that our application
strikes the right balance for Fort McMurray, the right format, the right plan
and the right owner/operator. Thank
you for your consideration and we would be happy to answer any questions you may
have.
7029
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Maheu. Commissioner Cram.
7030
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
You get me again, aren't you lucky?
Anyway, I was going to start with your programming and can I assume that
all of your programming is going to be locally produced?
7031
MR. MAHEU: Yes, our programming will be locally
produced.
7032
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. No
co‑production with other stations
7033
MR. MAHEU: No, standalone station on a standalone
basis.
7034
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. In
the other application that you had with us at this hearing for Grande Prairie
you had an hour of public affairs programming, and you are not planning that for
Fort McMurray?
7035
MR. MAHEU: At this point in time it was not included in our supplemental
brief. We applied for Grande
Prairie after our application for Fort McMurray went in. In thinking about it going forward,
obviously we don't want to and cannot change what we have already submitted in a
competitive process. But obviously
dependent upon if we were to receive a licence and if there were other
competitors licensed we are going to look for every opportunity we can to
differentiate ourselves in the midst of competition.
7036
As we spoke about in Grande Prairie, we believe that live programming is
becoming a more important way to differentiate along with the music, so it would
certainly be a consideration going forward.
7037
COMMISSIONER CRAM: And your live to air 100 per cent of the regulated
time?
7038
MR. MAHEU: Yes, we are proposing that we have live personalities on the
radio station, Monday to Friday from 5:00 a.m. until midnight, and on the
weekends from 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m.
And when we are not live on the air we will be voice tracked and those
voice tracks will be produced by station personnel
locally.
7039
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Would you agree to a COL to be live to air during all
of the regulated hours?
7040
MR. MAHEU: Sure.
7041
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Now your spoken word ‑‑ this, by the way, is a
very handy little piece of paper, it has just about everything I wanted to
know.
7042
MR. MAHEU: We are learning.
7043
THE CHAIRPERSON: Me too.
7044
COMMISSIONER CRAM: You have three fulltime equivalent news staff and will
they be doing exclusively news?
7045
MR. MAHEU: What we are proposing in Fort McMurray is we will have three
fulltime news staff and two part‑time for a total of five, which probably works
out to about an equivalent of 3.9 or almost four. And our news people are going to do a
number of things. Obviously, they
are going to write and report news and deliver it on the air. They are also going to report on stories
throughout the city and do the things that reporters do.
7046
And we also would anticipate, based on our business plan, that
potentially some of the part‑time news people would also help us in gathering
information from the community for the eight times a day, one‑minute community
updates that we are proposing to air on the station, so they will do a little
more than just news, but it will be in that information gathering
vein.
7047
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. And
scheduled news that you have on this piece of paper that you filed with us it
talks about 53 four‑minute news packages.
Now, I notice that you have unscheduled info reports, but these news
packages would include news, weather, sports?
7048
MR. MAHEU: Yes, they would.
7049
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. And
they are going to be four minutes.
When are these 53 news reports to be heard?
7050
MR. MAHEU: We can get that for you right ‑‑ on Monday to Friday the
regularly scheduled newscasts ‑‑ thank you, Glenda ‑‑ 6:00 a.m., 6:30,
7:00 a.m., 7:30, 8:00 a.m., 8:30, noon, 4:00 and 5:00, all Monday to
Friday. And on the weekends, 7:00
a.m., 8:00 a.m., 9:00 a.m. and noon news on Saturday and
Sunday.
7051
So basically what we wanted to make sure we were doing is that in prime
time and in morning drive time and afternoon drive, in the high‑tune listening
hours, that we do have news and information on the radio
stations.
7052
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. And
in terms of your news, is there a target for local, a proportion of
local?
7053
MR. MAHEU: Yes, there is.
Our goal and our stated goal is to have 75 per cent of that news and
information that we present be local and the other 25 per cent is a provincial,
countrywide or international news and, wherever we can, we would localize that
too based on the needs and wants of people in Fort
McMurray.
7054
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Now, you talked in your application about listener
pools. How are these done and who
does it and..?
7055
MR. MAHEU: They are an interesting feature and we do that on a
number ‑‑ not all of our stations, but some of our stations where it makes
sense we do them. And basically it
is an opportunity for listeners to give feedback on a big topical issue of the
day. And, in some cases on some of
our radio stations, what we do is we kind of have that topic of the day, we are
promoting it in the morning, it is kind of the kicker on the newscasts sometimes
about, you know, we would like to know what you think about this big issue of
the day.
7056
We have a phone number and we also have an email address that people can
participate in. We tape the phone
calls and we do play some of them back on the air, because they are quite
interesting and some of them can be quite entertaining, depending on the topic
as well. But it is great radio, it
is a great way to be local and topical and it gives listeners a sense that they
can have a say on the radio station to get things off their chest or let us know
what is on their mind. It also
gives listeners a chance to get a sense of what other people think about a
particular issue. So we find it is
quite a good feature and it is easy to do and there is always something to talk
about.
7057
COMMISSIONER CRAM: And is it the news people that would be sort
of ‑‑ or the announcers would be ‑‑ so everybody sort of gets
together, the programming, announcers and news people and figure out what the
issue is and then it is..?
7058
MR. MAHEU: You are correct, Commissioner Cram. Largely, it begins on the morning show,
so the morning team and the news team would kind of talk about what the big
topical issue of the day is and agree on it and get rolling with
it.
7059
COMMISSIONER CRAM: And Fort Mac Today, that would be done also by the
news people or..?
7060
MR. MAHEU: Largely, yes.
7061
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes, okay.
Now, on your handy dandy list here I, again with my great skill in math,
added them up and you have, I think under other, six hours and it is Then &
Now, Time Capsule, Cool by Request.
How much at the end of the day did you allocate to announcer
talk?
7062
MR. MAHEU: I am going to ask Glenda, her being a CA, she did the math and
she can tell you that.
7063
MS SPENRATH: Yes, certainly.
We are allocating approximately one hour in total for the week for the
features, Then & Now, Time Capsule, Cool by Request and the remaining
portion, the five‑hours, would be announcer talk.
7064
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Five hours?
7065
MS SPENRATH: Nod, yes.
7066
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Programming staff, how many are you planning on
hiring?
7067
MR. MAHEU: I will let, if I may, Dave Murray has the details on our
staffing line‑up.
7068
MR. MURRAY: Yes, there is 10 individuals, seven fulltime, three
part‑time, and be about nine fulltime equivalents on
programming.
7069
COMMISSIONER CRAM: On programming?
7070
MR. MURRAY: Correct.
7071
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
Classic hits is your proposal.
How different would your classic hits be from that proposed by Vista
and/or Standard?
7072
MR. MAHEU: I am going to ask Rob Mise in just a moment to kind of talk
about the specific differences between Newcap's proposal and the other two. Suffice it to say that it was clearly a
large format opportunity, very similar to Grande Prairie, because of just the
number of stations in the marketplace and it is quite a large hole and we
believe our proposal is different.
And, Rob, if you would be kind enough to speak on
that?
7073
MR. MISE: Sure. Commissioner
Cram, the differences between our classic hits and the rest of the competitors,
first of all, you know it varies from market to market, also company to company,
but let me take a look at each of them.
7074
The first one was Standard and, based on yesterday's application, they
mentioned a difference of probably 30 ‑ 35 per cent of currents in there in
addition to a healthy dose of 1980s and 1990s. To our ears, that kind of recipe ends up
kind of sounding like an AC, Hot AC, kind of pop station. And most classic hit stations, and we
operate a couple in the country, so does CHUM and Rogers, are largely about 90
per cent gold, 10 per cent currents.
7075
Vista is looking at a mix somewhat different than ours too. They are looking at possibly less 1990s
and more 1970s and 1980s. So those
are the big differences.
7076
I would also like to mention that if we are granted a licence, we would
go back into the community, we would do a music test to actually pinpoint the
exact science of the music mix in there.
7077
COMMISSIONER CRAM: And right now you are proposing the 90 per cent 1970s,
1980s and 1990s and then 10 per cent now?
7078
MR. MISE: That is correct.
7079
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes, okay.
How does is this different and/or similar from your Grande Prairie
proposal?
7080
MR. MISE: It will be different again, because each market is slightly
different. The difference here is
that there is probably going to be less 1990s in Fort McMurray, more 1990s in
Grande Prairie. That is the biggest
difference there is that decade of 1990s, according to our
research.
7081
COMMISSIONER CRAM: And why did you do that?
7082
MR. MISE: Again, it got back to the existing
research.
7083
MR. MAHEU: Rob is correct in the fact that every market is a little bit
different. And you can go to almost
any market in Canada and if there is not a classic hit station there there is
certainly, in most markets, a pretty decent opportunity for it. But, like anything else, people are
different in every region and area of the country, so what necessarily works in
Halifax you cannot transport that directly to another marketplace and have it
work as effectively as finding out what that approach would be for that
market.
7084
We kind of look at it, when we talk about the music mix, it is like a
recipe. Lots of people know how to
make a cake, but there are a whole bunch of different recipes that still end up
looking like cakes, tasting like cakes, but the flavours are different and
formats are very similar. So I
think Vista, Standard and Newcap are all baking a cake, but our secret recipe
and approach to it is a little bit different.
7085
And as Rob said, and we do this in every market that we do business in,
if we are awarded a licence the first thing we do is we go back in right away
and we do more research, because we want to know has anything changed. And now that we know that we have a
licence and we know what the format opportunity is we go in with a different
type of research project and we get really specific and we get into cluster
analysis, ear (ph) balance, piece (ph) and correlation, analysis of music to
find out what songs work with other songs based on what the target audience
wants.
7086
So what we have tried to give you here in the research that we did is an
overview of what the market is saying they need and want, using the standard kinds of
descriptors, and then once you know that that is what you are going to do you
would go back in and get really specific.
That recipe may change slightly, but I wouldn't anticipate very
much.
7087
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. And
oh yes, what would happen if we would licence two licences in this market and
you were one but the second one was a similar
format?
7088
MR. MAHEU: Well, there would be a heck of a race to begin with which, you
know, kind of goes to radio's competitive side and we all can be
competitive. I got thinking about
it because obviously we anticipated that kind of question. You have asked a lot of licence
applicants the same thing and I think it is a fair question. It is interesting, Fort McMurray is one
of those ‑‑ I don't think we could find another market where this type of
circumstance would exist where you have this explosive growth, an underserved
market, some pretty clear opportunities, but then the added layer of potentially
a difficult business environment and that has to be a consideration obviously in
this case.
7089
If there were two, if we were licensed along with another applicant who
had the same format, although we would hustle as quickly as we could, we would
obviously like to do classic hits, we see it as a great opportunity and we try
to be first. But if by chance we
couldn't be first or another station launched the same day we did with classic
hits we would all have a decision to make.
I think it would boil down to what we talked about just as second ago,
that we would do more homework in the marketplace. There are other opportunities, they are
not necessarily as big, but the one thing we do know about radio is that it
always changes.
7090
And, you know, even O.K. Radio Group who has been operating in the market
pretty much on their own with two radio stations, their radio stations have
grown and changed with their audience.
Things change, tastes change and trends come and go. So even though they don't have that
competitive pressure that they have to program to, they are always
changing.
7091
We know, in this particular case, one of the two would probably end up
being classic hits very definitely and the second one would have to find where
it fit, because the other thing to consider is when classic hits comes on in the
market it is going to cause changes with the other two incumbent radio stations
and that in itself will create other opportunities.
7092
So as something new comes in, starts taking away share, other stations
move a little bit, creates more of an opening maybe for another format that,
when you do the research now in a vacuum, looks well it is not quite as big as
you might like, but introducing classic hits to that marketplace may create a
bigger opening for another hole. So
I think you go back in, you do your research and as long as the company has the
financial wherewithal and the commitment to make it work in the market I am
confident, I can only speak for Newcap, but I would assume that Standard and
Vista would approach it the same way, that we would all find a place to live
where we felt we could do well and fulfil our commitments as we have made them
to you.
7093
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
Your target demo, the broad target, is 25 ‑ 54, focus 35 ‑ 54
and median age 40. Male,
female?
7094
MR. MAHEU: Slightly more male than female in this particular
case.
7095
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
CTD, I want to talk about the Fort McMurray school district. And my first question is in Fort
McMurray, as in God's Country Saskatchewan, there is a separate school board and
a public school board. Is there
such a thing in Fort McMurray or is it all under the
same..?
7096
MR. MAHEU: Al Anderson has kind of been heading this up for us all. I will let Al explain that to
you.
7097
MR. ANDERSON: Yes there are, Glenda can attest to that as well. When we met with the public school board
in particular and spoke with Alice Cartwright they were very excited in more
ways than one about our contribution to their music system. And one of the reasons being, that we
are putting our initiative to the beginning and the middle of a musician's
career rather than at the tail end.
7098
So many of the initiatives are ready and willing to try and make another
Celine Dion, another big Canadian star.
But as dentist would have to complete grade 12 before he or she could get
into the university to become a dentist, so does that musician, somewhere along
the way they need help in learning what they have to learn about music to make
the music and that is where we come in.
7099
We are starting at the bottom rather than at the top and, as an example,
the $16,000 that goes towards the purchase of instruments one might say well
that is such an affluent area why do they need any help? But when you talk to the people at the
school boards you will find out very quickly that uh.. you know, Fort McMurray's
reputation of being so affluent and there is money on the streets and there is
another myth that King Ralph of Alberta just hands out money here, there and
everywhere.
7100
COMMISSIONER CRAM: He does that.
7101
MR. ANDERSON: But the truth of the matter is it doesn't filter into all
of those school systems and right here in Alberta there is a cutback in
teachers, just to use ‑‑ right here in Edmonton I should say, you know,
there is a cutback on the number of teachers they will have this coming year in
the City of Edmonton.
7102
And so with that in mind, the school boards have to struggle to stay
within the budget that they have.
And, in most cases, things like more instruments for the school band,
etc. they are the things that don't get the proper funding for. So that is one end of it that they are
particularly excited about. And
another $6,500 goes to the music curriculum and that would include things like
sheet music and instruction books and wherever it would be required. And another part of it would be music
festivals where we would support two festivals per year in each of the school
boards to the tune of $10,000 and within that there would be about
$5,000 ‑‑ well, there would be $5,000 allotted for scholarships within
those particular festivals.
7103
So that, sort of in a big nutshell, is what we plan to do with the
Canadian Talent Development.
7104
MS SPENRATH: If I might add, Madam Cram, to go back to your question, and
before I do I would agree with you that Saskatchewan is God's country,
the ‑‑
7105
COMMISSIONER CRAM: It is unanimous then?
7106
MS SPENRATH: Yes, it is. We
have done this in Lloydminster for several years, I have done it myself, I have
been delivering instruments to the schools myself, and we have always split our
funding and our instruments and other factors 50/50 between the Catholic and the
public school system so we will do the same in Fort
McMurray.
7107
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay, good.
So then what it really means when you say $16,000 for instruments it
means $8,000 and $8,000?
7108
MS SPENRATH: Yes, that is correct.
7109
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. And
then for the festivals, do they have separate festivals?
7110
MS SPENRATH: Typically the festivals they would travel to, probably
Edmonton, they may go to Grande Prairie to a festival, they could very well go
to the same festival, but doesn't have to.
I know in Lloydminster we go to festivals in Saskatoon, in Edmonton, in
Red Deer. We don't travel together,
the Catholic and the public systems, they choose the festivals they go to
separately.
7111
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay, so you are going to give each $5,000 for
festivals, but $2,000 of that is to be allocated for scholarships. Have I got that
right?
7112
MS SPENRATH: That is correct.
7113
COMMISSIONER CRAM: And then the remainder, half and half, will go to each
of the school boards for curricula‑related
items?
7114
MS SPENRATH: Yes, that would be items like sheet music, music stands,
instruction books for the kids.
Sometimes if the instructor does some research as to other types of music
they would like to introduce into the classroom, those kinds of
things.
7115
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. So
then how do you handle this? Do you
sort of say here is a cheque, I want you to use it for this much, for this and
for this and this and this and I want you to send me an accounting? Is that what you
do?
7116
MS SPENRATH: Typically, we decide ‑‑ I actually have done it for a
number of years and we decide it ahead of time with the schools and I have
worked together with them to order some of the materials and then I have them
produce an invoice for us first and then we cut cheques to the schools once we
have evidence.
7117
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. And
you agree, Mr. Maheu, that the CTD will be payable over seven consecutive years
commencing with the first year of operations, which may not necessarily be the
first licence term?
7118
MR. MAHEU: That is correct.
7119
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Any synergies with your other stations, either here or
in the Maritimes?
7120
MR. MAHEU: No, we are not anticipating any and we didn't budget for any
or plan it that way. Suffice it to
say though that, you know, we have a pretty good infrastructure in place in
Alberta and we are in a lot of smaller and mid‑size markets, some markets
similar in size to Fort McMurray.
You know, we had people available, I guess that is one of the things that
is helpful for us, that we have a lot of people who work for Newcap who live and
work in Alberta. Fort McMurray to
some of those people would be a promotion or an opportunity and that is I think
one of the advantages that we have is that we understand how to do radio in
markets that size and have people that would like to be part of it and I think
that could help us mobilize quickly.
7121
And in the event two were licensed and they were the same, we could have
a head start in the race. But in
terms of supplying programming or anything like that, no. No, it is a
standalone.
7122
COMMISSIONER CRAM: And on a totally separate topic, in your application
you referred to a study by Castlehof (ph) & Company but you didn't file
it. And we, being the suspicious
regulators that we are, would ask that you would file it if you
could.
7123
MR. MAHEU: Sure, we paid a lot of money for it we should have filed it,
so sorry about that. We will file
it quickly.
7124
COMMISSION: Before Phase 3 I guess?
7125
MR. MAHEU: Dave, can we do that?
7126
MR. MURRAY: (off mic) Yes, we can file it today,
sure.
7127
MR. MAHEU: Yes, sure.
7128
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
Your finances, and you did revise your numbers, if we gave you a licence
I look at it and I think we are giving you a licence to lose money, at least the
first five years. How did you
revise your projections?
7129
MR. MAHEU: We had to make a revision due to some circumstances. I am going to let Dave talk to you about
the specifics of those changes and the reason.
7130
MR. MURRAY: Right. We had
originally applied for a television station as well and there were a number of
synergies between the radio and the television and on the back office side,
administrative side. So when we
withdrew our television application it was obvious that our TV numbers
were ‑‑ the expense numbers were far too low and so that was the nature of
the revision.
7131
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
Your staffing salary costs, did you add a Fort McMurray
factor?
7132
MR. MURRAY: Yes, we definitely did.
Compared to staffing this station, a similar market in Atlantic Canada
were approximately 40 per cent higher, probably about 25 per cent higher than
the average Alberta station of a similar size.
7133
COMMISSIONER CRAM: And that is the staffing costs alone
or..?
7134
MR. MURRAY: Staffing, yes correct.
7135
COMMISSIONER CRAM: And what about commercial space? Is there a Fort McMurray factor in
that?
7136
MR. MURRAY: Yes, it is a little higher, it is about $25 a square foot, we
have that factored in.
7137
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
7138
MR. MURRAY: Now, it is very difficult to find and, you know, we don't
have a space but it seems to be getting increasingly more difficult than the
report. The Meyers, Norris Report
is frightening but, you know, we are very confident that we have the resources
to, you know, put a station on there and keep all of our commitments and do the
job.
7139
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
Now, Mr. Steele, you said at least one radio licence in Fort
McMurray. How many do you think
Fort McMurray ‑‑ is that the max?
7140
MR. STEELE: You know, Fort McMurray is a unique area and it is, you know,
we were trying to ascertain how big the radio revenue is there and how big can
it grow. One certainly, two with
some suspicion, that is my own view.
We have actually debated that amongst ourselves,
but..
7141
COMMISSIONER CRAM: And plus a specialty?
7142
MR. STEELE: Yes, and two commercial, that is what I am referring to,
yes.
7143
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Is there any disagreement with
that?
7144
MR. MAHEU: No, I think two would be lots.
7145
MR. STEELE: You know, I think it is ‑‑
7146
COMMISSIONER CRAM: So what is the reservation? You know, nobody else
has ‑‑
7147
MR. MAHEU: I don't think the market is as big revenue wise as some might
think it is. We
had ‑‑
7148
MR. STEELE: Also I think it is like, if you look at Thunder Bay for
example, where it is kind of like it is an entity all on its
own.
7149
MR. MAHEU: Yes.
7150
MR. STEELE: You look at Grande Prairie and you look at the amount of radio
revenue eventually coming out of there, I mean that is ‑‑ we were quite
shocked by that. We don't think it
is the same case in Fort McMurray and it is sort of a little more isolated where
Grande Prairie would be a hub of a trading area. So it is almost ‑‑ the perfect
prescription would probably be one and a half stations.
7151
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
7152
MR. MAHEU: But we wouldn't want the half station.
7153
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.
7154
MR. MAHEU: Just picking up on what Rob said, we have a couple of stations
in Thunder Bay and it is obviously not as prosperous there as it is in Fort
McMurray, but geographically it is somewhat similar in the fact that you have
this large population area in a northern local and not a lot around it, you have
to drive quite a ways to get to anything of any size and you are conducting
you're business in that marketplace.
7155
And in listening yesterday ‑‑ and the reason I am saying that we
don't think the revenues may be as robust as everybody is thinking it might
be ‑‑ listening yesterday to one of the presentations about, you know,
calculating the potential value of the market based on knowing what national
sales are and if national sales are X and then it is always a percentage
of. But we know from the research
that we have done, speaking with national rep firms, that the cost per point in
the Fort McMurray marketplace is much higher than it would be in any other
market of a similar size.
7156
So that may distort, if you are using the standard percentages of say 25
per cent is always national, so if national's going $1.X million then we know
that retail is at least this, we think that might not necessarily be the case
because they are getting so much more nationally up there because they can and
there is just no competition and the prices are higher. So we think it is a healthy market and
it is going to continue to get healthier in terms of the amount of retail spend
and everything else. But at this
point in time our feeling is one for sure and stretched to two, you
know.
7157
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
Well, it is a touch market because you have an incumbent with two
stations and an incumbent that may become an infinitely larger incumbent with
infinitely deeper pockets. What
kind of challenge does that present to you?
7158
MR. MAHEU: Commissioner Cram, competition is always a challenge and the
bigger and more well‑funded the competitor is the bigger the challenge. And if, for instance, if the situation
that has been talked about with Rogers and O.K. Radio Group came to be and the
Commission approved Rogers to take control of those radio stations, we have no
problem at all competing with Rogers.
We compete with them in markets now and I will give you a really good
example, a very recent example and it relates to classic hits, so it is even
more relevant.
7159
We compete in Sudbury, Ontario, we are a standalone FM radio station in
Sudbury. Rogers is our only
competitor, they have two FMs plus an AM, so it is three against one and we are
the little guy there. And we
changed our format to classic hits back on New Year's Day this year and from top
40 because we couldn't make a living in top 40 in a market that small against a
consolidated competitor. And first
book came out in April, so we were on the air for three months and we debuted
with a 29 share and we became the number one radio station in the market
overnight against a big, consolidated well‑funded
competitor.
7160
So we know what our capabilities are and we know that the O.K. Radio
Group's a tough competitor as well and it wouldn't matter to us who owned those
radio stations, we would be really focused on doing a good job for
listeners. I think that is what
always drives our approach to picking formats and doing a job for radio
listeners. We don't focus on
competition, we don't focus on beating the competitor, we really do focus on
putting a good product on the air and doing a great job for listeners and an
excellent job for advertisers. And
if we keep our eyes on those two things, normally good things happen and we get the result we
are looking for.
7161
COMMISSIONER CRAM: What in this market, especially given the
configuration of it ‑‑ you have heard others talk about maybe additional
criteria that we should be thinking about, aside from the competitive balance,
the adding a new voice, that sort of thing. Is there anything else we should
consider in this configuration of a market?
7162
MR. MAHEU: I think the uniqueness of this particular marketplace at this
particular time, from the Commission's perspective, you may have to consider
this time the financial wherewithal of potential applicants more than anything
else and more than you might at any other time for a couple of reasons. Costs continue to escalate. You have an entrenched competitor in the
marketplace.
7163
And the other thing that nobody has really spoken about or at least I
haven't heard it yet, and God forbid, but Fort McMurray has a history of being a
boom and bust town. And if anybody
has lived there for any length of time they know that the good times you always
think they are going to be here for a long time. They thought that in the mid 1960s, they
thought it again in the late 1970s and the early 1980s and then boom, the bottom
fell out of it.
7164
The whole economic environment in Alberta is riding high now on the price
of oil and gas and there is no question that the oil sands are much more
commercially viable now than they ever have been because of the price of crude
oil. On the one hand we hope that
that prosperity continues. On the
other hand there is a bunch of consumers around the world that hope that
alternatives develop and the pressure on producing oil at this price will go
down.
7165
So I think the financial wherewithal of a company to be able to go into
that market, invest capital, build infrastructure, potentially lose money for a
while and be able to ride it out that if eight or nine years from now or seven
or six years from now that oil goes back to $38 a barrel things may be quite
different. And while everybody else
is pulling up stakes and heading out of town, we have a radio station there that
we have to continue to own and operate and do a good job for. And I think that is a consideration, I
am not saying it is a probability by any stretch, but it has to be within our
thinking.
7166
COMMISSIONER CRAM: God forbid that Alberta would become a have‑not
province.
7167
MR. MAHEU: I don't anticipate that.
7168
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you very much.
7169
MR. MAHEU: Thank you.
7170
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Chair.
7171
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
There is no further questions, Mr. Maheu, so if you want to take your
two‑minutes to tell us why or, Mr. Steele, why we should strongly consider your
application to the extent that we grant you the licence.
7172
MR. STEELE: Thank you, Mr. Chair, members of the Commission and
Commission staff, for listening to us here
today.
7173
We do believe that our application strikes the right balance for Fort
McMurray and that we at Newcap can deliver the format and the plan that will
serve the residents of Fort McMurray.
And it seems from the record of this proceeding that the Fort McMurray
community can sustain the entry of one, perhaps more, commercial entrants. However, given the strength of the
two‑station incumbent combo that was just discussed, the challenges that exist
in Fort McMurray of getting staff, housing, cost of doing business there, etc.
it is going to be a challenge, but it is a challenge, it is going to be a
challenge for anyone, it is a challenge that we are up
for.
7174
But from our perspective, what makes our application strong is, first of
all, the format. Classic hits is a
clear, it is a well‑defined market hole there and that can stand on its own
against the other formats that currently exist. Also, in our business plan we have
anticipated a licensing of two new entrants and, as we have outlined in our
plan, we anticipate losses over almost the first term ‑‑ full term of the
licence. At Newcap we have the
resources to weather those losses.
7175
And thirdly, perhaps most important, our resources in this province and
our commitment to small and mid‑market radio in this province will ensure that
the community of Fort McMurray does get a quality service. And because of the number of radio
stations that we operate in rural Alberta we think we do bring an Alberta
sensibility, if you will. And for
that matter, much has been made of the Atlantic Canadian presence in Fort
McMurray and, for what it is worth, we bring that sensibility as
well.
7176
We do have extensive experience with new station start‑ups in
Alberta. We are about to launch,
for example, 90 minutes away in Lac La Biche a new station there and we have the
staff, we have the people power to mobilize quickly in Fort
McMurray.
7177
Thanks very much for letting us present our case here
today.
7178
THE CHAIRPERSON: As a matter of fact you yourself are a Newfoundlander,
so you probably have family already over there.
7179
MR. STEELE: Oh yes, I have a few friends there, yes. And yes, I understand the concept of
kitchen parties very well.
7180
THE CHAIRPERSON: I have been through one, yes.
7181
Mr. Steele, thank you very much.
Thank you to your team. We
will break for lunch and we will get back at 2:00.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1245 /
Suspension à 1245
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1403 / Reprise
à 1403
7182
THE CHAIRPERSON: Order,
please. Miss
Secretary.
7183
THE SECRETARY: Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
7184
Before we proceed to the next application, would just like to indicate
for the record that Vista Radio has filed with the Commission the letter
detailing the financial commitment made by Vista to the Fort McMurray School
Board. The letter will be placed on
their application file.
7185
And Newcap Inc. has also filed the market study that they referred to in
their application earlier this morning.
Again, the market study will be placed on the application file and can be
viewed in the examination room.
7186
And we will now proceed with Item 18 on the Agenda, which is an
application by Radio CJVR Limited for a license to operate an English‑language
FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Fort McMurray. The new station would operate on
frequency 105.9 megahertz (Channel 290B) with an effective radiated power of
20,000 watts (non‑directional antenna / antenna height of 54 metres). Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Jean
Fabro and you will have 20 minutes for your presentation after the introduction
of your colleagues.
Thank you.
PRESENTATION /
PRÉSENTATION
7187
MR. FABRO: Good afternoon,
Mr. Chairman and Commissioners.
7188
Before we begin our presentation, I would like to introduce the members
of our team. My name is Ken Singer,
I'm Vice President and General Manager of Radio CJVR
Limited.
7189
On my right is the President and Owner of Radio CJVR, Jean
Fabro.
7190
To my left is Kevin Gemmell, General Sales Manager of our
company.
7191
To his left is Jessica Schnell, Director of Research Services at
Insightrix Research of Saskatoon.
7192
And next to her is Corinne Harper, a partner at
Insightrix.
7193
Radio CJVR operates 2 stations in Melfort, Saskatchewan, CJVR FM and CKJH
AM. And we are excited about
launching our newest operation, CIXM FM in Whitecourt, Alberta, by mid‑September
of this year.
7194
Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission, Radio CJVR welcomes this
opportunity to apply for a broadcasting license to operate an adult contemporary
radio station on the frequency of 105.9 to serve Fort McMurray and the 11
surrounding communities within the Regional Municipality of Wood
Buffalo.
7195
Increasingly the eyes of the international business community are
focussed on Fort McMurray, located at the heart of the world's largest oil sands
development which currently meets over 30% of Canada's crude oil production and
is projected to fulfil 100% of the country's needs by 2011.
7196
Upon spending time in Fort McMurray, one can liken the frenetic activity
within the Wood Buffalo Region to a modern‑day Klondike Goldrush with all of the
escalating economic activity, population explosion, immigrating workforce and
attendant upward pressure on housing, municipal services and cost of living
indicators among other key considerations.
7197
For McMurray's current population of 61,000 grew by 67 percent between
1999 and 2005, according to the 2005 Wood Buffalo Municipal Census, it is
expected to increase to over 80,000 by 2010.
7198
Based on today's market conditions, it's highly likely that such
projections are vastly understated.
Similar to Grande Prairie, the pace and level of economic development
within the Wood Buffalo Region has outstripped Fort McMurray's ability to keep
abreast of all of the service demands that such development creates, including
the need for additional local radio programming choices.
7199
It is essentially against that backdrop that CJVR, in responding to the
Commission's July 2005 call for applications to serve Fort McMurray engaged
Insightrix Research Services of Saskatoon to undertake a comprehensive consumer
demand study of the local market as an integral part of our application
process.
7200
The primary objectives of the study were to assess the potential market
for a new FM station for Fort McMurray and Wood Buffalo and to determine
opinions regarding musical preferences, local news and other informational
programming elements on the radio.
7201
Based on the results of the Insightrix Consumer Demands Study and 40
years of broadcasting experience, CJVR has developed a comprehensive FM
undertaking that will help fulfil many of the programming needs and listening
preferences identified by the 400 Fort McMurray residents age 18 to 64 who
participated in the survey.
7202
The net result is 105.9 FM, an exciting new station whose unduplicated
adult contemporary music format will provide Fort McMurray and its 61,000
residents with much‑needed additional local radio listening
options.
7203
Fort McMurray is currently served by 2 local private stations, both owned
by the OK Radio Group, CJOK FM is a country music station, while CKYX FM
operates a classic mainstream rock format.
7204
Commission approval of 105.9 FM's unduplicated A/C format will bring
significant programming diversity and listener choice to Fort McMurray and Wood
Buffalo's more than 73,000 residents within the coverage area.
7205
105.9 FM will also bring an element of competitive balance to the local
marketplace that has been lacking under single ownership.
7206
One of the objectives of the Commissions long‑standing policy on common
ownership has been to preserve the availability of distinct news voices in a
community. As such, the addition of
105.9 FM to the local radio market will provide a distinctly western Canadian
alternative news voice for the benefit of Fort McMurray and surrounding area
residents.
7207
Further to introducing an alternative news voice and establishing
competitive balance, CJVR also brings ownership diversity to Fort McMurray's
radio market as an independent dedicated career radio broadcaster.
7208
As discussed earlier this week, in the context of our Grande Prairie
application, CJVR Albertan owners, the Fabro family, has a wealth of broadcast
experience, the financial strength, the human resources, the creative
entrepreneurship and the corporate will and determination to play a larger role
in western Canada's private radio sector.
7209
Like Grande Prairie, the Fort McMurray radio opportunity is of central
importance to CJVR and its strategic broadcast plan to grow our critical
broadcasting mass in western Canada.
7210
MR. GEMMELL: Mr. Chairman,
among the key findings of the Insightrix Consumer Demand study, is the fact that
nearly 85 percent of respondents, upon hearing a description of the proposed new
FM and a sampling of the music that would be played, stated it was very likely
or somewhat likely they would listen to the new
station.
7211
It was interesting to note that over 88% of females said they were very
likely or somewhat likely to listen to the station, compared to 78 percent of
males. 34 percent of total
respondents stated that 105.9 FM would be their favourite station. 62 percent indicated the proposed new FM
would become their first or second choice.
7212
In terms of spoken word programming, 94 percent of respondents overall
said that local news and information specific to Fort McMurray is important to
them. Of equal importance was news,
information on local road conditions and weather reports for the area. In addition, over 83 percent of females
compared to 6 3 percent of males said they agree or strongly agree they would
spend more time listening to radio if there was a local station that placed an
emphasis on softer music along with news and information specific to Fort
McMurray.
7213
The Insightrix Study also indicates that nearly 39 percent of Fort
McMurray residents tune to out of market stations in the absence of their
listening preferences on local radio.
As such, 105.9 FM's unduplicated music format and locally relevant spoken
word programming will help repatriate the majority of those out of market
listeners.
7214
MR. SINGER: Mr. Chairman, at
the heart of CJVR's corporate culture is a deeply rooted sense of community from
which all of our broadcasting goals and objectives flow.
7215
At CJVR we see local programming as the window to a community's soul and
as such we work very hard to provide locally relevant news and information and
other programming elements that accurately reflect the community and its
people.
7216
CJVR is keen to bring this experience to Fort McMurray and through 105.9
FM provide an addition to its unique music format, coverage of the daily news
and information, along with an emphasis on those events and activities which
define, reflect and promote a shared community of interest among residents
living within the communities of Wood Buffalo.
7217
Musically speaking, 105.9 FM's A/C format will specialize in playing soft
rock and pop songs from today along with the soft rock and pop hits of the 70's,
80's and 90's.
7218
As evidenced by the Insightrix Study, the proposed new FM will be most
popular with female listeners. In
keeping with spoken word programming needs and listener preferences identified
in the study, 105.9 FM will place an emphasis on local news, weather, road and
school closing reports and information on upcoming community events among other
listener interests.
7219
The station proposes a staff complement of 15 fulltime and 2 part‑time
employees, including 3 fulltime news reporters to service the new Fort McMurray
newsroom.
7220
In terms of newscasts, the station will broadcast locally originated news
every half hour in the mornings and again during selected hours throughout the
day as well as on weekends.
7221
Essentially, information packages will consist of news, sports, weather,
traffic reports and community events and activities. The station will provide over 5 hours of
scheduled news broadcasts per week plus additional surveillance information when
necessary and as it becomes available.
7222
Given the importance that respondents placed on traffic and road
condition reports, road and condition reports will air every 30 minutes between
6 a.m. and 9 a.m. as required between 9 a.m. and 4 p.m. and then again every 30
minutes between 4 p.m. and 7 p.m.
7223
This is important not only for local residents, but for commuters and
motorists who regularly travel portions of the Highway 63 corridor between
Edmonton and Fort McMurray.
7224
Fort McMurray historically has experienced critical weather extremes
often causing school closures and dangerous driving conditions. As such, 105.9 FM will provide weather
reports with every newscast and in extreme conditions will air more frequent
weather bulletins.
7225
Further to using the resources of Environment Canada, 105.9 FM will also
engage the use of weather watchers around the coverage area who will call the
station toll free with up to the minute weather
observations.
7226
When bad weather strikes, 105.9 FM will bring in additional people to
staff the "snowdesk" and ensure locals are frequently updated on school closings
and school bus cancellations.
7227
MR. GEMMELL: Mr. Chairman,
to ensure that its existing and potential radio stations achieve their locally
relevant community driven spoken word programming objectives, CJVR has developed
an inclusive broadcast plan that will enable each station to keep a steady
finger on the pulse of community life and the events and activities that occur
within.
7228
This is achieved in a number of ways, including the recruitment of a
network of community‑minded volunteers who regularly feed their mother station
with news and information of what is happening in their respective
areas.
7229
If licensed, 105.9 FM will participate in this initiative. 105.9 FM will utilize the station's
community cruiser to broadcast live several times per week from a number of
venues throughout the Wood Buffalo Region.
7230
As well, 105.9 FM proposes to broadcast a minimum of 4 community‑focussed
features each day, entitled "Focus on Fort McMurray" which will be in addition
to the 5 hours of news features noted earlier.
7231
A staff member will write and produce these features, aimed at addressing
everyday issues from a local and regional perspective.
7232
In addition to its newscasts and community features, 105.9 FM will excel
at keeping its audience informed with up to the minute local, regional and
national sport coverage.
7233
As well, CJVR has had discussions with the Fort McMurray Oil Barons the
areas popular Junior `A' Hockey Team, with a view of offering live play‑by‑play
broadcasting of all home and away games.
7234
I would further note that the internet will assist 105.9 FM in its
efforts to communicate with listeners and clients through a website that will
display critical road and weather conditions, community information as well as
relevant information about the radio station, its programming and
promotions.
7235
MR. FABRO: Mr. Chairman and
Commissioners, CJVR brings to Fort McMurray and 105.9 FM a proud legacy of
excellence, achievement and commitment in the area of talent development that
has had significantly beneficial impact on the careers of many Canadian artists
who have gone on to achieve national and international success.
7236
As mentioned in our earlier presentation, part of the legacy stems from
the fact that CJVR Melfort has been recognized 6 years in succession at the
national level and an incredible 11 years in a row at the provincial level by
the Canadian Country Music Association and the Saskatchewan Country Music
Association, respectively.
7237
With respect to Fort McMurray, 105.9 FM has committed to a minimum of
$25,000 per year or $175,000 over the course of a license term, in direct
expenditures on a series of Canadian talent development initiatives which
include $11,000 for "Fort McMurray Idol", $10,000 for Student Music
Scholarships, $3600 for Aboriginal Scholarship and $400 for Factor.
7238
In addition to the direct expenditures of $175,000, 105.9 FM has
allocated an indirect on‑air expenditures budget of $105,000 per annum or
$735,000 over the term of the license for the promotion of concert performers,
artistic programs and other initiatives that will assist in the exposure and
promotion of local talent within Fort McMurray and the Wood Buffalo
area.
7239
The combined total of direct and indirect talent expenditure amount to
$130,000 per annum or $910,000 over the license term.
7240
CJVR as a small independent broadcaster, is of the view that its direct
expenditures are realistic and will yield a good return for the talent they are
invested in.
7241
As we have noted on other occasions, the most valuable currency that a
broadcaster can provide for talent, is access to on‑air exposure of their
talents.
7242
The multiple awards that CJVR has won over more than a decade were not
awarded on the basis of the amount of direct dollars we were able to spend, but
rather on the creativity, dedication and commitment to the hundreds of artists
we have worked with over the years.
7243
Should CJVR be successful in its Fort McMurray application, we will apply
the same efforts of talent development that have worked so well for us over the
past number of years.
7244
MR. SINGER: As we stated
earlier this week in relation to Grande Prairie, CJVR has little doubt that the
Fort McMurray market is also capable of supporting one or more new private
commercial radio stations.
7245
Undoubtedly, one of the major problems is not whether it is sufficient to
support the exiting local stations and accommodate new entrants, the problem is
trying to get an accurate read on what the real numbers are because the growth
rate has been so rapid that some of the currently available market statistics
are grossly inaccurate.
7246
Such a rapid growth rate places unprecedented pressure on the available
dwelling spaces and the increase of married families with young children is
placing great strain on the existing elementary schools.
7247
MR. FABRO: Mr. Chairman, the
owner of CJVR, my family, Fabro Investments Limited, is also in the housing
business.
7248
I have a pretty good idea of the housing situation and the land
development opportunities within Fort McMurray as Fabmar is negotiated to
acquire land within the city limits to build a number of apartment
condominiums.
7249
Should CJVR be licensed for Fort McMurray, Fabmar's involvement in the
area would be extremely helpful as we would provide discounted housing to our
employees.
7250
MR. GEMMELL: Mr. Chairman,
according to Financial Post, 2005, retail sales in the combined Wood Buffalo and
Cold Lake Census Division are estimated to be $1.05
billion.
7251
These sales were supposedly derived from a population of 103,000 people
of which 73,000 resided in Wood Buffalo.
The report also states that there were a combined total of 485 businesses
in these census areas of which 251 were in Wood Buffalo and 234 were in Cold
Lake.
7252
We commissioned the Fort McMurray Chamber of Commerce to undertake a
study to determine an accurate count of the retail businesses in Fort
McMurray. They accounted for 583
such businesses in Fort McMurray alone, which is almost 22 times the number reported by the
Financial Post for the entire Wood Buffalo
Region.
7253
Well we believe the Financial Post numbers are grossly inaccurate and
actual spending is substantially higher than what was reported, CJVR has used
the FP Retail Sales Figures knowing that it will provide us with a conservative
estimate for the Fort McMurray market.
7254
Based on the fact that over 70 percent of the population in these 2
census areas reside in Wood Buffalo, we believe we are being very conservative
to estimate the retail sales in Fort McMurray to approximately $800,000,000
which is about 80 percent of the $1.05 billion.
7255
By applying the commonly accepted percentage of the total annual retail
sales as a valid approximation of annual potential advertising revenues
available in the market, we have estimated that the advertising revenues for
Wood Buffalo to be approximately $20,000,000.
7256
CJVR's research has led us to conclude that in this market, $6,000,000 of
the $20,000,000 should be obtainable by all local radio.
7257
We believe the 2 existing stations garner approximately 3.5 to 4 million
dollars of that amount and operate profitably in the market. The remaining 2 to 2.5 million dollars
would be available to a new licensee.
7258
The Insightrix Study's findings strongly suggest that our proposed new FM
will appeal to over 50 percent of the audience and attract approximately 20
percent of the total radio listening and total weekly hours tuned in our first
year of operation.
7259
As such, CJVR has estimated our first year local revenues will
conservatively amount to about 5 percent, or slightly over 1 million dollars of
the total available retail advertising pool of $20,000,000.
7260
Considering the rapid growth of the market and constant introduction of
national box stores, we estimate our first year national sales will be about
$340,000.
7261
MR. SINGER: Mr. Chairman and
Commissioners, included among the many important benefits that approval of
CJVR's 105.9 FM will yield for Fort McMurray and communities within Wood Buffalo
are the following.
7262
105.9 FM's unduplicated music format will add significant programming
diversity and listener choice to the market.
7263
Our unduplicated A/C music format and locally relevant spoken word
programming, will meet many of the listening needs and preferences of Fort
McMurray's 25 to 54 underserved demographic.
7264
105.9 FM's programming will strengthen Fort McMurray's local radio by
repatriating the 39 percent of listeners who presently tune to out of market
stations.
7265
Fort McMurray radio will be further strengthened by 105.9 FM's ability to
attract new listeners and draw lost listeners away from alternative audio
options, resulting in increased hours of local tuning.
7266
The commercial appeal and diversity offered by 105.9 FM's A/C format will
result in new radio dollars being attracted to the Fort McMurray market with
minimal impact on local stations.
7267
The establishment of a new adult contemporary station will provide
advertisers with a highly cost efficient alternative advertising vehicle to
target the underserved 25 to 54 demo.
7268
The addition of 105.9 FM will establish competitive balance within the
Fort McMurray single ownership market by providing a distinct alternative news
voice.
7269
Approval of 105.9 FM will increase ownership diversity within Fort
McMurray and Alberta's private radio sector.
7270
Approval of CJVR's new undertaking will ensure continuance of a strong
independent radio voice at a time when many smaller community broadcasting
entities are disappearing through increasing industry concentration.
7271
The addition of 105.9 FM to Fort McMurray's local radio spectrum, will
result in new CTD initiatives involving a minimum direct expenditure of $175,000
and an indirect on‑air expenditures budget of $735,000, for a total of $910,000
over the license term.
7272
105.9 FM will optimize the utilization of the frequency by extending its
unduplicated music format to meet the programming needs and preferences of the
underserved 25 to 54 year olds.
7273
105.9 FM through its daily spoken word programming will reflect the
cultural and racial diversity within Fort McMurray's growing
population.
7274
Approval of 105.9 FM will result in the creation of 15 fulltime and 2
part‑time employment equity opportunities.
7275
MR. FABRO: Mr. Chairman,
CJVR appreciates the opportunity to have appeared before you this week seeking
broadcast licenses that are central to our efforts to grow our company's
critical mass and to play a larger role in western Canadian radio
broadcasting.
7276
At a time when Canada's private radio sector is evolving from a
collection of independently‑owned radio stations, into commonly‑owned multiple
chains of stations, my family feels it is more important than ever that strong
independent radio voices be encouraged and maintained.
7277
I respectfully ask you and your colleagues to approve our application for
Fort McMurray. We will be happy to
answer any of your questions.
7278
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Fabro.
7279
I think I shall probably direct my question to Mr. Singer. So, Mr. Singer, if I'm referring you
back to your page 9 of your oral presentation, or page 7 of your supplementary.
because it is directly quoted, you are saying that based on the study that you
have done, you estimated the advertising revenues in Wood Buffalo to be
approximately $20,000,000.
7280
And you are saying that $6,000,000 shall be attributed to radio. The other $14,000,000 you see it
allocated where?
7281
MR. SINGER: I will defer
that question to our Sales Manager, Kevin Gemmell, to talk to the numbers, if
you don't mind.
7282
MR. GEMMELL: Thanks,
Ken. A great question, Mr.
Commissioner. That would be spread
out amongst many ways ‑‑ newspaper, advertising through the web, and the various
other means, outdoor advertising in the area.
7283
THE CHAIRPERSON: There's no
television. Is there a weekly
paper?
7284
MR. GEMMELL: There is a
daily paper.
7285
THE CHAIRPERSON: There is a
daily paper.
7286
MR. GEMMELL: Yes, there
is.
7287
THE CHAIRPERSON: There is a
daily paper.
7288
MR. GEMMELL: Fort McMurray
Today.
7289
THE CHAIRPERSON: I see. So they, more than likely, they are
taking the major share of that $14,000,000?
7290
MR. GEMMELL: That and some
of the outdoor advertising, there is some billboards around and, of course,
portable outdoor advertising as well, which wouldn't be a huge amount. I would think the newspaper would take
the majority.
7291
THE CHAIRPERSON: You think
that will take the majority.
7292
MR. GEMMELL:
Yes.
7293
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. We'll follow the standard line‑up of
questions that we have had over the last couple of days.
7294
And I will start with the format and the music. And really I don't have that many
questions to ask.
7295
But I understand that you are going to be aiming at the 25‑54 age group
and if you will be skewed more towards the female gender. And do you have an idea of the
share? Is it 60:40 or 55:45,
70:30?
7296
MR. SINGER: You're referring
‑
7297
THE CHAIRPERSON: To the
gender.
7298
MR. SINGER: To the gender
mixture picture ‑‑ it's fairly close and I will possible turn you over to our
people from Insightrix to give you the exact amount.
7299
MS SCHNELL: Mr. Chairman, we
are definitely targeting females and there's definitely a higher percentage of
females who are interested in the station, but its also important to note that
males had a high interest level as well.
7300
I believe we had over 80 percent of females saying they're interested or
very interested and, well, over 60 percent of males as well, so that would give
us about a 60:40, female‑male split in the listenership.
7301
THE CHAIRPERSON: And within
that demographic, the 25‑54, what will be the median age of your
listener?
7302
MS SCHNELL: Early 30's,
probably 30‑31. 25 to 34 age group
was the most interested.
7303
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. But your announcer will be talking,
instruction will be he is talking to a 31, 32 year old
female.
7304
MS SCHNELL:
Correct.
7305
THE CHAIRPERSON: And then
all the others are welcome.
7306
MR. SINGER: That's
correct.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7307
THE CHAIRPERSON: But in his
mindset, he is talking to a woman that is say, 32 years of
age.
7308
MS SCHNELL:
Correct.
7309
THE CHAIRPERSON: As you
know, the Harvard and Golden West has also filed for the same format that you
have filed. How do you see the
distinction between the music that they have proposed and the one that you are
proposing here?
7310
MR. SINGER: Mr. Chairman, we
have a better grasp, I feel, of what Harvard is proposing than ‑‑ musically it
was a little more defined, at least to us, than Golden
West.
7311
But I would say, in comparison to Harvard, they are planning to insert a
pop element and more of, like later in the day, but did mention that they would
integrate a lot of the pop element throughout their day as well as it fits the
A/C genre.
7312
We would be more of a pure A/C format, so we feel that perhaps the
Harvard format would appeal to a slightly younger demographic than our proposed
format would.
7313
THE CHAIRPERSON: Getting
back to your ‑‑ I took a lot of notes while you were talking, so I have to get
back to make sure that I did cover them.
7314
Okay, well, essentially those were my questions regarding your music
format. I have to say that your
application is very complete and there's a lot of ‑‑
7315
MR. SINGER: Thank you.
7316
THE CHAIRPERSON: There's a
lot of detail in it, so that's why we, well, obviously means that there is less
questions.
7317
We will move now towards spoken word and again, here, this time you have
said that you will have 15 employees, if my memory serves me
well.
7318
MR. SINGER:
Correct.
7319
THE CHAIRPERSON: And among
them, there will be 3 fulltime news reporters. What will they do? And how many newscasts will they do a
week? And what will be the
breakdown of the news schedule?
7320
MR. SINGER: Okay, Mr.
Chairman, we will have 3 news employees, as you noted. One of them will be our News
Director.
7321
The duties of each of those 3 will be, obviously to write and search out
stories with a great emphasis on the local component.
7322
I would estimate, if similar to r other radio operations in smaller
markets, we will strive to achieve at least an 80 percent component of local
news, local and regionally local news content.
7323
The number of newscasts they will prepare weekly, is 101 newscasts, with
the door always open to do extra news coverage when situations
warrant.
7324
We certainly understand that 3 news people, it's using everything they've
got to do that many newscasts, but we really feel that that component is
important.
7325
And we also, as we have indicated in other applications, and will be
employing on our new Whitecourt station, we will be endeavouring to set up as
many stringers as we can out within he broadcast coverage area, who will assist
our news department in keeping us informed of things going on in those areas and
certainly not just from a news point of view, but also from just a human
interest and public service point of view as well.
7326
THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, you
have been referring to them, your stringers, you have been referring to them as
the community‑minded volunteers.
7327
MR. SINGER:
Correct.
7328
THE CHAIRPERSON: So if they
are volunteers, they are unpaid?
7329
MR. SINGER: We do not have a
budgeted pay plan for them, but in my experience with this type of a setup, we
would offer some type of compensation to them in terms of a number of various
things.
7330
I also alluded to having weather watchers in our presentation. One of the things I did many years ago
with that type of a program was we actually got wrist watches for each of them
with our call letters on them and our logo and that was ‑‑ they took quite a bit
of pride in being part of the weather watcher army that we had out there.
7331
And we would do a number of initiatives to them. But in my experience, most of these
people feel quite honoured to be a part of the whole broadcasting
system.
7332
THE CHAIRPERSON: How do you
choose them?
7333
MR. SINGER: Primarily, you
know, we would advertise it, we would put it on our website, we would mention it
on the air, we would also ‑‑ we encourage our on‑air people in all situations to
become very involved in the communities, so there would be certainly some face
to fact contact in selecting some of these people as well.
7334
But we feel that just, you know, announcing that we do have a
correspondent in such‑and‑such an area, if you would like to be one, let us know
as well.
7335
And certainly it's, you know, we are not under any obligation to use
everything they give us. It would
certainly be edited by our news department and our programming
staff.
7336
THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, doing
101 newscasts a week means that you will have some people in your newsroom from
6 in the morning to ‑‑ and even earlier than 6 in the morning ‑‑ till midnight,
7 days a week?
7337
MR. SINGER: We would have
primarily our main focus would be 6 to 6.
But there would be, you know, some news assignments in the evening,
depending on various things that were going on from a reporting point of
view.
7338
But without question, because of today's technology, we can instantly be
in touch with any of our news reporters if something should break in the evening
hours.
7339
But we, because we don't plan to have any voice tracking on our Monday
through Friday, there would be an announcer on duty in the evenings if a
newscast was ‑‑ or a news story broke, a newsperson would be contacted
immediately.
7340
THE CHAIRPERSON: And he
could do the first call, even on air, if there was to be fire blaze somewhere he
could mention it during his own shift.
7341
MR. SINGER:
Correct.
7342
THE CHAIRPERSON: It doesn't
need to have a newsperson to say that there is a fire blaze
somewhere.
7343
MR. SINGER: That's
correct.
7344
THE CHAIRPERSON: What will
be the length of those newscasts?
You have 101 of them, but ‑‑
7345
MR. SINGER: News and weather
on our morning newscasts on the top of the hour are 5 minutes, the bottom of the
hour are 3 minutes. The weather
component is approximately 30 seconds within those newscasts.
7346
And then our mid‑day newscasts run about 3 minutes; noon hour we have a
5‑minute newscast, and then back to 3‑minute newscasts.
7347
THE CHAIRPERSON: And what
about sports?
7348
MR. SINGER: Sports is in
addition, one minute to two minutes in length, depending on time of day. But there would be a sports component on
pretty well all of our newscasts, and once again with emphasis on sports that
are relevant to the local area.
7349
THE CHAIRPERSON: Will your
news people be asked to do other feature material like material related to, say
to energy and to forest or whatever.
7350
MR. SINGER: Yes, Mr.
Chairman, we do have a number of spoken word features that the news department
will be responsible for, in addition to our programming
people.
7351
THE CHAIRPERSON: And
regarding on‑air people, how many people are you thinking
of?
7352
MR. SINGER: I too have a lot
of notes.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7353
THE CHAIRPERSON: You were
expecting the questions.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7354
MR. SINGER: Yes, I
was.
7355
THE CHAIRPERSON: Either from
me or Commissioner Cram.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7356
MR. SINGER: Yes. We mentioned that there will be 15
full‑time employees and two part‑time.
We've already discussed the three newspeople. Our on‑air hosts, our programming
people, consist of a morning host, who will also be our program director, our
midday announcer, an afternoon drive announcer, we will have an evening
announcer and a swing announcer. So
five more employees there.
7357
In the administration area, we'll have a general manager who will also
act as the sales manager, our accounting and traffic manager, we'll have a
receptionist who will also have other duties, assisting with writing. We hope that we'll be so busy we'll need
extra writing resources. She'll
also work in the promotions area, or he will work in the promotions
area.
7358
We anticipate having a creative staff in Fort McMurray consisting of
a creative director who will also write commercials; a second writer who will
also be the producer of the commercials; and we will have a half of a person
doing writing in our Melfort operation for Fort McMurray; we will also have
a part‑time technical person in Fort McMurray; and two salespeople. So in total, that's 15 full‑time and two
part‑time.
7359
THE CHAIRPERSON: Two
part‑time. So it's the equivalent
of 16 people.
7360
MR. SINGER: And I
should also mention, Mr. Chairman, that the accounting and traffic person
would be also located in Melfort.
So two of our contingency would be working out of our Melfort
facility.
7361
THE CHAIRPERSON: Regarding
spoken word by your announcers, will there be any script material or is it
banter material?
7362
MR. SINGER: Happy
talk. There will be a fair amount
of ‑‑ you're talking about aside from the produced spoken word
features? You're talking about
happy talk.
7363
My belief, in any on‑air responsibility, and it's been that way since I
started in the business 40 years ago, is that you don't turn the microphone on
until you know what you're going to say, and I was well‑trained in that area,
and I'm not referring to you, Mr. Chairman.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7364
MR. SINGER: And I'm
breaking those rules here today too, I'm sure.
7365
Preparation is key to any good radio show. I know some of our best announcers, and
we have quite a few of them, are very good at what they do, are very, very
prepared when they go in to do their show.
We encourage them to research what they're going to talk about today and
we don't tell them they have to write it out. Some choose to make notes. Some go in with three‑ring binders with
little newspaper clips and whatever they took off of the internet and whatever
resources they chose to put their programs together. But they do have a
guideline.
7366
And I know we had a sign in our control room at one time that said, "Make
sure your brain is in gear before engaging your mouth." And that really again, I guess, speaks
to being prepared and talking about things that are meaningful to the audience
rather than ‑‑ if you were to monitor any of our stations today, you would
hear much more than surveillance of song title and time of day. We actually have a commitment within
each of our hours where announcers do talk about local things going on and also,
you know, really do bring something to the air that provokes a little bit of
thought about what's going on out there, not just a list, it's not a shopping
list of things to do. So there is a
plan. Our announcers are monitored
regularly and our program director critiques them on their level of content that
they bring to each show.
7367
One of the things that we ask our announcers when they finish a shift is,
"Tell me what you did today that you're proud of." It's an important element of what you do
on the air.
7368
THE CHAIRPERSON: You have
included in your programming grid a feature that you've called "Focus on
Fort McMurray."
7369
Could you, for the benefit of the Commission, describe what those
features will be and their duration and when you are planning to broadcast
them?
7370
MR. SINGER: "Focus on
Fort McMurray" will run a minimum of four times per day. It certainly is a feature that can cover
many, many topics. The idea for
this was similar to what we explained in our previous application for a program
called "Community Connections," but "Focus on Fort McMurray" would
basically take the same direction, given the array of urban and rural
communities that we would serve with our signal making up our coverage area, we
would, again, through connections in these various communities, develop some
type of, I guess, an on‑the‑scene person who could be our go‑to to find out what
is going on in those respective areas.
7371
These reports would be written and produced by our news department and
our programming department but based on information we receive and acquire from
those volunteers in the various areas that we
serve.
7372
Without question, the breadth of the information is immense depending on
what's going on in those communities.
It would also reflect the cultural diversity of those communities as
well. I mean, if we, you know, had
a contact in a First Nations community, obviously there would be opportunity for
some dialogue on the Aboriginal issues that are going on in that community and
events, and also give an insight to the culture and activities even from an
historical point of view. We feel
it's kind of a mosaic about your community, and then it could be very specific
about something that is going on this particular weekend, such as a folk
festival or a powwow or a meeting or even a need in the community for
fund‑raising, that type of thing.
So the range is pretty broad.
7373
THE COMMISSIONER: Other than
the news feature and the "Focus on Fort McMurray," will you have other
types of features and which type will they be?
7374
MR. SINGER: We will
have a listener feedback line, which is an opportunity for our listeners to
sound off or to give opinion. Our
news department ‑‑ we plan to do that in two modes: one on our internet, where you could,
you know, leave a comment on our web site and submit it to the radio station, or
you could phone a talk line, a recorded talk line. Our news department will choose ones
that are appropriate for air and put together a bit of a montage that will run
daily of listener feedback and comments, similar to ‑‑ I guess you've seen
the CityTV concept with the television on the street or leave a comment. But this certainly has a little more
immediacy in terms of it being radio and audio; we can react quickly. So we would prepare these in our news
department. Our news director would
oversee this each day.
7375
THE CHAIRPERSON: Will you
deal with some public affairs matters and, if yes, how and at which period of
time?
7376
MR. SINGER: We don't
have plans for an actual block of public affairs programming, but we certainly
would incorporate that into I guess our produced features.
7377
One other spoken word feature that is included in our presentation, our
application, is our community cruiser, which is again one of radio's great
abilities, to go out, hook up with somebody, an organizer, a participant, and
put them on the air instantly and back to the radio station. It certainly provides an opportunity for
organizations that need extra help and promotion to be on the air everywhere
through our community cruiser.
7378
THE CHAIRPERSON: You said
that from Monday to Friday you will be live‑to‑air from six to midnight. What about the
weekends?
7379
MR. SINGER: On
Saturdays, we'll be live six to six; on Sundays, we'll be live from six till
3 p.m.
7380
THE CHAIRPERSON: And after
it will be voice tracking or is it brokered or syndicated shows or
what?
7381
MR. SINGER: We have no
plans at this time for brokered programming. We would run voice tracked hours, so in
total, 15 hours a week maximum.
7382
As I mentioned in our application, we also have an agreement with the
Fort McMurray Oil Barons hockey team, that should we be successful, we
would enter into negotiations with them for the opportunity to do live hockey
broadcasting. So that would
certainly take up some of those hours that we had planned as voice tracking,
would be then live play‑by‑play.
7383
THE CHAIRPERSON: Is the
hockey team playing only over the weekend?
7384
MR. SINGER: No, they
have a schedule that varies, weekdays, weekends. At present, they do have some of their
games broadcast, but our intention and their interest in our
proposal ‑‑
7385
THE CHAIRPERSON: Having them
all.
7386
MR. SINGER: We would do
them all, as we do in Saskatchewan on our stations. In Melfort, we do 125 and more hockey
broadcasts a year.
7387
THE COMMISSIONER: And you
will have some staff that will be capable to follow them and broadcast? We're talking here junior hockey, junior
Alberta hockey league?
7388
MR. SINGER: Yes,
yes. And we would certainly have to
add to our staff complement if we were successful. Unless we were lucky enough ‑‑ and
we have been lucky enough on some occasions ‑‑ that one of our announcers
was very good at play‑by‑play, but we have some very qualified sports people
working with us in Saskatchewan and we hope to develop more, and this would be
an ideal opportunity for us in Fort McMurray.
7389
THE CHAIRPERSON: We'll move
now towards dealing with synergies.
You have already mentioned that traffic, writing, and part of creative
will be done out of Melfort. What
about Whitecourt? Are you planning
to do any synergies with Whitecourt?
7390
MR. SINGER: Most
definitely, Mr. Chairman. Our
interest in Fort McMurray has increased dramatically because we applied for
Fort McMurray and then acquired Whitecourt, and obviously that just gives
us more ability to share some of our resources. Number one, accounting and
administration is perhaps one of the most obvious savings to us; but from the
point of view of, I think, more importantly than the synergies, especially from
a start‑up point of view, is this gives us an opportunity to exercise some of
our best practices across the whole group of stations, and we can certainly
utilize the training and development on a much more effective basis when we have
more areas for our talent to go and practice their craft. We are especially excited about, you
know, the opportunities of recruiting a higher standard of talent because there
would be more opportunities within our company.
7391
THE CHAIRPERSON: And if you
were granted the licence for Grande Prairie, will you have synergies as well
with Grande Prairie?
7392
MR. SINGER: I think
from a regional point of view it would strengthen our ability in terms of
content on our radio stations because then we would have three operations that
really have an Alberta regional focus and there's a lot of commonalities
there.
7393
We have plans, as you've seen on our Whitecourt application, to share
some of the Canadian talent initiative ideas, not to just duplicate them and put
them on in Whitecourt, but we have a very successful Canadian programming called
"Canadian Coast to Coast" which features Canadian country artists and their
music. We have a Saskatchewan
Country Sunday where we just feature Saskatchewan artists. We would employ those kinds of ideas but
give them an Alberta focus.
Obviously we're an Alberta radio station; we would put more emphasis on
the local Alberta musicians. At the
same time, it's an opportunity to share with Alberta the Saskatchewan musicians'
stories and successes.
7394
So there are some synergies in programming ideas. Certainly there are synergies in the way
we plan our programming. We use
resources to make our programming better.
We certainly feel that a company of our size can learn from broadcast
consultants who give us programming tips.
Now we can apply them in several stations and not just one or two. So those are
savings.
7395
A news department certainly has tremendous opportunity to share
resources ‑‑ again, if we were fortunate enough to have Grande Prairie and
Fort McMurray added to our Whitecourt, what a great news department we're
building here. Without question, we
would share each other's stories and expertise and try to localize them. Not to say we'd write a story for Grande
Prairie and play that to people in Fort McMurray as it is, but there might
be a story created that really has an element very localized to any of those
markets.
7396
THE CHAIRPERSON: We will now
talk about the CTD. You have
proposed to allocate $3600 per year to support students enrolled in the
Aboriginal Entrepreneurship Program at Keyano College. While such funding is worthy, we are not
sure that an initiative of this nature qualifies as a CTD expenditure under the
current CTD definition.
7397
If the initiative was to be declared by the Commission as non‑eligible,
do you wish to maintain the initiative and thereby reduce your annual CTD, or
will you allocate that CTD to another eligible
expenditure?
7398
MR. SINGER:
Mr. Chairman, a good question and one that certainly came to mind,
unfortunately, after we filed the application, that we recognized that it might
not meet the definition. So we have
given it some thought, and we would definitely keep it within our budgeted
direct expenditures, but we would redirect it to an initiative that would meet
the definitions.
7399
Our preference would be, because it was an Aboriginal initiative, that we
would find out and seek out another initiative that the benefactor would be an
Aboriginal.
7400
THE CHAIRPERSON: In your
oral presentation again today you mentioned that you are committed to spend
$25,000 per year or $175,000 over the course of the licence term but you may not
be on air the day the Commission issued the licence. Would you accept a condition of licence
that it be seven consecutive years rather than the licence term, or are you
ready to do it or spend the money over a five‑year period or a four‑year
period? It depends on when you are
going to be launching this station.
It's up to you; take your pick.
7401
MR. SINGER: I'll let
Gene answer.
7402
MR. FABRO: Yes, we
would commit to send that over the term of the licence period. So if the licence period was shorter
than seven years because when you issued the licence, we would still spend the
total amount committed over that period.
7403
THE COMMISSIONER: So you
will be increasing the amount on a per year basis?
7404
MR. FABRO:
Yes.
7405
MR. SINGER: I'm sorry,
I didn't understand the question.
Thank you, Gene.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7406
THE CHAIRPERSON: I phrased
it in a different manner than it was phrased to the others. There was a twist in it. But Mr. Fabro, being the president
of the corporation, we're taking his word.
7407
MR. FABRO: When it
comes to money, my ears perk up.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7408
MR. FABRO: But on the
Canadian Talent Development initiatives, it's important to note, as I think
Mr. Singer has pointed out and we said in our verbal submission here today,
that part of our commitment to Canadian talent is a large commitment to the
on‑air exposure. We've proven in
Saskatchewan that that's the real horsepower in making these artists
professionals.
7409
The dollar amount a lot of times isn't monitored well by some of the
broadcasters. It's just paid out
the door and broadcasters get their credit, they get their invoice and they have
their records.
7410
Our company is much more committed to actually promoting Saskatchewan
talent, and by having some of the radio programs that Mr. Singer indicated
and our promotion of talent generally is probably I would say the best in the
country, because I watch that kind of thing. When we came up with our CTD
commitments, it's not a small amount to ‑‑ basically $900,000 in terms of
total commitment and $735,000 in air time.
That's a big number for us and it's a big commitment and it will work
well for the artists.
7411
THE CHAIRPERSON: I do agree
with you. That being said, since
1998, following a long consultation that did involve the CAB, a decision was
made to assess the CTD only on the cash because all the broadcasters had
non‑cash or non‑monetary involvement in various ways and those are very hard for
the Commission to monitor.
Obviously you don't report on them.
That's why we didn't ask any questions. For sure we agree and I think ‑‑
surely it's acknowledged by the fact that you have earned for eight consecutive
years and eleven consecutive years the awards of the Canadian Country Music
Association for the Prairies and for Saskatchewan. I'm sure that those awards are directly
related to the effort that you have been making to the support of Canadian
talent, and I think you should be commended for these
awards.
7412
MR. FABRO: Thank
you.
7413
THE CHAIRPERSON: In making,
obviously, our formal appraisal of all the applications, we are taking only into
account the cash outlay. We know
the rest and we appreciate that you had raised it, but we need to have harder
facts, something that we can see.
We can see the cheque and the receipts afterwards.
7414
MR. FABRO: Right. Well, Mr. Commissioner, as
Mr. Singer alluded to, our commitment is a minimum commitment based on our
financial forecast. If we were to
exceed the forecast, and hopefully that will happen if he were to get a licence,
we would certainly examine very closely our CTD commitments and would commit
further.
7415
THE CHAIRPERSON: I think we
appreciate that. But we have to
assess everybody with the same ‑‑ if I agree with your plan, they will all
come back and say ‑‑
7416
MR. FABRO: That's true,
yes. Maybe we can reflect
on ‑‑
7417
THE CHAIRPERSON: So we're
not doing here an auction. We're
granted a licence but not through an auction process.
7418
MR. FABRO:
No.
7419
THE CHAIRPERSON: We're not
in Sweden and we're not in ‑‑ in Finland and Sweden, that's the way they've
granted the last FM frequencies, through auction,
but ...
7420
MR. FABRO: But
maybe ‑‑
7421
THE CHAIRPERSON: And it was
an FTD or STD, it was money to the treasury.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7422
MR. FABRO: Maybe
Mr. Singer can expand on our viewpoint in terms of our broadcast quality
and training of staff just with regards to our financial forecast and what we
believe what we're doing for the industry.
7423
MR. SINGER: Thank you,
Gene.
7424
Mr. Chairman, I certainly do understand the Commission's position
on, yes, you have to measure by the direct. We do too. I guess ‑‑ you know, we're new to
this game of applying for more licences, relatively new to this game. Once you see all of the applications, in
hindsight, we could make some great decisions here and put some tremendous stuff
into our application. But in all
honesty, the number that we did submit was at the time, we thought, significant
and reasonable for this competitive process; but we also formulated that number
based on the business plan to go and set up a radio operation in a market that
is perhaps twice as expensive to operate as we are accustomed
to.
7425
Consequently, we also looked at how we're going to go about doing
this. We could easily reduce our
costs in operating a station such as we're proposing in Fort McMurray by
putting a morning show on and voice tracking this thing even from Melfort. I mean, we've got the technology to do
that nowadays. But that is not
going to work. It's not going to
serve the people of Fort McMurray and it's not going to possibly even meet
the acceptance of the CRTC. I
understand we'd have to do a percentage of programming to be able to sell
advertising that would originate locally.
7426
The truth of the matter is we don't want to just put a radio station on
the air that serves the market reasonably adequately. So now we have to make a decision. We've got to bring some players to the
table that can do a job, someone that can go in a control room and do more than
the basics, and we have to hire a few more people because of the commitments
we've indicated in our presentation today.
7427
So it gets down to a balancing act of how much Canadian talent dollars
can I put on the table and offer a quality radio station to the
marketplace? I think we've
identified that in our business plan.
7428
THE COMMISSIONER: And I
appreciate your comment. It was
raised during the radio review by some intervenors. We heard the Ontario Independent Radio
Group making some representations in that regard. We also heard another trade association
which is called l'Association des radios indépendantes privées du Quebec. They made similar comments. We heard some other applicants this week
making the same representations.
And I understood from page 7, where you said, "CJVR is a small
independent broadcaster"; you also add that you are well‑structured,
well‑financed, and capable of being a player in Fort McMurray, but you are
still at the stage of the development of CJVR Limited a small organization,
independent organization, which cannot have the same level of commitments as
some of the other larger organizations that have 40, 50 radio
stations.
7429
Those are things that we're taking into account in assessing the various
applications and we're giving a different weight to each applicant. We see the need for the big
organizations to expand, but we see the need also to bring in new players and
not only totally new players but also smaller independent players to grow and
eventually be in a position to buy those big operators.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7430
MR. SINGER: That's our
hope. As Gene mentioned, if we
exceed projections, we won't wait until the end of the licence term to be doing
more. I understand where he's
coming from. At the same time, I
also ‑‑ and I appreciate the fairness of the CRTC in this matter because I
really do think that our beginnings are no different than the beginnings of the
Big 6 in our country. They started
with one and look where they are today.
We may never approach that capacity, but as we grow, so will our Canadian
Talent Development direct expenditures.
7431
THE CHAIRPERSON: I
understand that. If I'm turning the
clock back to 1998, and I was on the other side of the fence, as you know, when
the Commission came up with their commercial radio policy, everybody was saying,
well, Telemedia will buy everybody, but they were the first to sell. Nobody knows the future. But I can assure you we're taking all of
these factors into account.
7432
Your remarks are timely because I was moving towards the marketing and
the business aspect of your application.
I notice that you haven't filed any supplementary information regarding
revenues and expenses, so taking for granted that the numbers that you have
filed in 2005 are still the ones which you think, even if the Fort McMurray
market has exploded the way you stated it, with the type of financials you have
put to us, you're capable to go forward?
7433
MR. GEMMELL:
Mr. Chairman, maybe I'll speak towards that.
7434
Yes, we are confident that the financials as filed are exactly what we
want them to be.
7435
Just to give you an idea of ‑‑ we talked about potentially
inaccurate numbers through the Financial Post Canadian Demographics. The Financial Post 2005 Canadian
Demographics showed a number of just shy of $250 million in retail
activity, and that's a number quoted by some of the other worthy
applicants.
7436
We estimated the amount to be closer to $800 million based on the
entire Wood Buffalo‑Cold Lake census division and then taking population into
account.
7437
We're delighted to note that the 2006 Financial Post Canadian Demographic
estimate approximately $771 million in retail sales for this year, which
is ‑‑ what ‑‑ 29 million shy of where we estimated them to
be. Once again, it reinforces that
our numbers are dead on.
7438
THE CHAIRPERSON: Dead
on. Start with the premise, as you
said, Mr. Fabro, Fabmar is in the housing business and you even are
contemplating, with or without the licence, to move into the construction
business in Fort McMurray.
Let's start with the scenario and we will not discuss ‑‑ and we
won't discuss the scenario where we don't get the licence. If you have the licence, you will be
owning your own facilities, your building?
7439
MR. FABRO: Yes. What we choose to do everywhere we
operate is to buy our real estate to control our destiny. We house our office building in Calgary
to run our holding company, Fabmar, but we also run construction and other
businesses from there; and in Fort McMurray, we would buy our own
building. In Saskatchewan, Melfort,
we have our own building there and we have our own building in
Whitecourt.
7440
Fort McMurray, in the short‑term, we may, if we were to receive a
licence, we would probably lease until such time as we either built a building
or bought one that was available.
But lease or buy, the attributed costs, the occupancy costs would be the
same, we would still factor it in the same.
7441
With regards to our building business, yeah, we've been in the building
business since 1987 in Calgary and area and just recently, the last four years,
in Canmore, and we build anywhere from ‑‑ because we're in multi, single,
and recreational building, we build anywhere from, say, 85 to 180 units per
year, and we have the opportunity to come into the market here. It does have its challenges, but we
believe there's a long‑term benefit from being in the market, and the first two
years it would be difficult to get all our trades lined up and to organize
everything, but we think we could do very well here, also in Grande
Prairie. So there you
go.
7442
THE CHAIRPERSON: You have
the experience to do that. That
also allows you to say that ‑‑ how do you say it?
7443
MR. FABRO: Subsidize
or ...
7444
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Subsidize.
7445
MR. FABRO: Yes, that's
what we would do is we would provide ‑‑ well, firstly, by having the
opportunity to build here, you give one more outlet for any new employees to
come to have a property because there's a limited amount of property and some of
it is not Class A space, and the types of product that they build here isn't
probably what we'd build. We'd
probably pick it up a notch, so to speak.
7446
And what we would do is subsidize our employees. They could live in the houses and the
condominiums that the housing company would build, and that would be a perq for
the employees and also a bit of glue to keep them here in Fort McMurray
because we believe that our units would be desirable to live
in.
7447
THE CHAIRPERSON: In your
oral presentation, you said that you have commissioned the Fort McMurray
Chamber of Commerce to undertake a study to determine the accumulate count of
retail business in Fort McMurray.
7448
Do you have a copy of that report and could you provide the Commission
with one?
7449
MR. GEMMELL
Mr. Chairman, it was actually supplied with the licence application,
I believe.
7450
THE CHAIRPERSON: I have a
Take Five from you.
7451
MR. GEMMELL: Yeah,
yeah. Schedule 5 is the
Fort McMurray Retail Business List.
It lists it by, first of all, area of town, and then it's done by street,
and we further developed this list into a mailing list as we were attaining
letters of support. We mailed out
to all of these businesses and received very few returned as undeliverable, so
we know there's about 583 businesses.
7452
THE CHAIRPERSON: As you can
see ...
7453
MR. GEMMELL: Yes,
I understand.
7454
THE CHAIRPERSON: We wade
through tons of paper.
7455
MR. GEMMELL:
Yes.
7456
THE CHAIRPERSON: So it's
either somewhere here or been left in my office. Thank you. If we have it, we have it. Thank you very
much.
7457
MR. SINGER: If you
require another copy of it, we would be happy to file one.
7458
THE CHAIRPERSON: I only have
one bag to leave.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7459
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
very much, Mr. Singer.
7460
In the oral presentation, you alluded to the number of stations that the
Fort McMurray market could support.
You said at least one and maybe two. What if the Commission was to grant two
licences and what would be the impact on your business
plan?
7461
MR. SINGER: We do
believe the market will support more than one new licensee. We certainly would have to review our
business plan. It would be our hope
that we could certainly make this work as the business plan exists because of
the ongoing growth of the market.
7462
Again, you know, we don't hear the downside of this market, that things
are going to suddenly stop in Fort McMurray. I feel that the quality ‑‑ as I may
have mentioned earlier ‑‑ the quality of life will continue to improve in
Fort McMurray. It's a little
scary right now. But I think, you
know, there's going to be more settlement and more stability in that market as
time goes on, and I don't think you're going to see this market grow to a huge
proportion and then just all of a sudden dry up because I've heard too many that
share that point of view ‑‑
7463
THE CHAIRPERSON: It will
never become a metropolis.
7464
MR. SINGER: That's
right. I do believe that, you know,
down the road, there will probably be another call for applications in that
market. Certainly, in talking to
residents of Fort McMurray and through our surveys, you know, the people of
Fort McMurray, I mean, their comments to us, and many of them are on file
with our letters of support, would, thank God, more than two choices on the
dial. How ecstatic will they be if
they've got four choices? That
would be great.
7465
I think there is room and I'm confident that our business plan and our
projections can support ‑‑ we can be competitive in that
environment.
7466
MR. GEMMELL:
Maybe if I can interject just quickly on some of the calculations? I don't want to bore you with lots of
numbers because it's been a long week so far ‑‑
7467
THE CHAIRPERSON: But it
helps.
7468
MR. GEMMELL:
Yes. Well, and that's
good.
7469
As we suggested, $800 million is what we feel is the economic
activity or the retail sales in the market. We suggested there be $20 million
in advertising spending, of which $6 million would be spent on radio. We made the assumption initially in the
application that the O.K. stations were taking between $3.5 million and
$4 million out of the market.
7470
June 6th of this year, Broadcasting Public Notice CRTC 2006‑70, the
O.K. Group applied to amend their broadcasting operations by increasing the
transmitter height, and their first year of their seven‑year financial
projections showed a combined revenue of
$4.1 million.
7471
Now, when you take into consideration that the most recent CRTC Radio
Revenue Reports show that FM radio in Alberta has seen a five‑year growth of
8 percent in revenue per year, that means that last year the O.K. Group
probably billed about $3.75 million.
So, again, we're bang on in our suggestions.
7472
THE CHAIRPERSON: When you
say two new stations, what if the Commission was to grant one of the specialty
Christian services?
7473
MR. SINGER: I think the
Christian applications would have a minimal effect on our business plan and our
ability to achieve that revenue, and it would, again, bring some other diversity
to the marketplace. As long as
that's the format that they ‑‑ you know, if that's the format they propose
and that's the format they put on the air, I think we can compete in that
market.
7474
THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, we
have had discussions with the other applicants, and you will be the last one
with whom we are going to have that discussion, but while you have described
your format a bit different than the one of Harvard and Golden West, the reality
is that there is, mind you, some closed minds on that
format.
7475
What if the Commission was to grant two licences in the market but to you
and one of the other adult contemporary applicants? What will that mean for
you?
7476
MR. SINGER:
Mr. Commissioner, I think the Harvard application identified that
they were going after the broadest possible target of this adult contemporary
mix of music because they had the pop, the new pop element within their
format.
7477
I would suggest that if Harvard was licensed with that format as they
described today and we were licensed with our format, that we can compete with
it by being a pure AC/soft rock style radio station against that
format.
7478
We certainly would do additional research to have some confidence in that
theory, but it always gets down to, if you licence more than one, whoever gets
on the air first is going to have the advantage, and that advantage would be
something ‑‑ or that new situation would be something we'd have to measure
and we'd certainly go back to the marketplace to see what will work. Without question, the premise of our
entire application is, there's lots of room in this market, and I think
Mr. Hildebrand and his team identified that as well, that there is a
tremendous ‑‑ it's not like applying for a licence in Edmonton where we'd
have to narrowly focus what will work here. This market is very, very wide, and the
two stations are doing a good job serving the market, but they don't meet all
the musical needs and there's, I think, several choices in the market. The one that we chose is the one we
believe in. Hopefully you'll
approve that and we'll be the first one on the air and that will be the other
station's problem, what they're going to do.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7479
THE CHAIRPERSON: But it
surely won't be, if it was to be Harvard and you, it won't be a real estate
issue in both instances.
7480
MR. SINGER: I'll leave
that up to Gene to decide that.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7481
THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, those
are my questions, Mr. Singer.
I another your colleague, Commissioner Cram, wants to ask a
question.
7482
MR. SINGER: Thank
you.
7483
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank
you, Mr. Chair. I just have a
few issues.
7484
I was reading your deficiency letter of February 28, '06, at page 5,
and it's 5(a) and it says, "What are your plans in the area of live‑on air
talent, voice‑tracked or automated programming?" And then you say you plan to broadcast
live weekdays from 6 a.m. to 12 a.m.
7485
Did you mean 12 p.m.?
Because that's what I'm hearing today.
7486
MR. SINGER: No,
6 a.m. till midnight.
7487
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay, but
that's noon. 12 a.m. is noon,
isn't it?
7488
MR. SINGER: No, it's
p.m.
7489
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Oh, then
that's my problem.
Okay.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7490
COMMISSIONER CRAM:
Okay. Thank
you.
7491
And would you agree to a CoL?
7492
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
You're going to have to spell it out, Barb? What CoL?
7493
COMMISSIONER CRAM: CoL that
you would program live‑to‑air during the entirety of the broadcast, regulated
broadcast time?
7494
MR. SINGER: Yes, we
would.
7495
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Good,
thanks.
7496
Mr. Fabro, do you know the cost of commercial space in Fort
Mac?
7497
MR. FABRO: To purchase
or to lease?
7498
COMMISSIONER CRAM:
Lease.
7499
MR. FABRO: Yes, I
do. I think we estimated, for the
studios that we would need, to be about $60,000 in rent.
7500
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Per
square foot ‑‑
7501
MR. FABRO: No, that's
total ‑‑ and I can just check that figure here but ‑‑ let me just see
what I had here.
7502
That's like $25 gross a foot.
7503
COMMISSIONER CRAM:
Okay.
7504
MR. FABRO: Which
is ‑‑ we've checked the market, that we should be well be able to do
that.
7505
COMMISSIONER CRAM:
Commissioner Williams wants me to ask you, what's the construction costs
for Class A?
7506
MR. FABRO: Class
A. Depends where we build, I guess,
and it's Class A of Cadillac or Class A of Volkswagen, but we think that
selling ‑‑ the selling cost here would be $325 to $350 a foot in order to
make it worthwhile.
7507
COMMISSIONER CRAM:
Okay. Thank
you.
7508
And then ‑‑ I don't know which one of you ladies from Insightrix I
wanted to ask. At page 3 of
your ‑‑ I think it's the executive summary of your study, so it's (iii),
under "Demographics," you said, "Quotas were used to obtain a sample of
60 percent females and 40 percent
males."
7509
I'm asking myself why you did that because, if I've got it right,
55.8 percent of the population of the City of Fort McMurray are
male.
7510
MS SCHNELL: Madam
Commissioner, we did target females ‑‑ the format that we were targeting is
primarily targeting females and we were anticipating that about 60 percent
of the listening audience would be female.
So we wanted to get opinions of the residents, representative of what we
feel that our licensing audience would be.
7511
COMMISSIONER CRAM: So
because the others were targeting male, is that what happened, you wanted to
find out what females wanted to listen to?
7512
MS SCHNELL: Because the
other stations in the area are more directed towards males, so we wanted to
direct our station more towards females.
7513
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay,
okay. Thank
you.
7514
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
7515
MR. SINGER:
Mr. Chair, I've just noticed, and Commissioner Cram, I've made an
error here on this amount of voice‑tracking. I'm glad you drew my attention to page 5
here of the deficiency because I think I've stated it several times in our
appearance here before you today that we were automating 15 hours a week ‑‑
or voice‑tracking 15 hours, and I was calculating that on us being live Sundays
6a to 3p, and that is in fact 9 a.m. to 3 p.m., so you've got to add
three more hours to our ‑‑ so the voice‑tracking amount will be no more
than 18 hours per week.
7516
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Mr. Fabro, Mr. Singer, we are giving you a couple of minutes to
sum up and say to the Commission why you should be granted the licence for
Fort McMurray.
7517
MR. FABRO: We believe
that we should be granted a licence because there's an opportunity here in the
market. We believe that we have
chosen the right format. If there
are two entrants in the market, we think we can do a significant enough format
adjustment so that both new entrants can play and win.
7518
Our business plan is well‑thought‑out, it's conservative but it's
well‑done. We know we can deliver
on it. We have the financial and
human capital in our company to deliver on what we say we deliver, and for all
the time that we've been in Melfort, we have delivered and delivered more than
what other operators probably would have
delivered.
7519
If we were to get a licence here in Fort McMurray, it would be
complementary to our Melfort and Whitecourt operations and would obviously be
complementary to Grande Prairie, if we were so lucky.
7520
It would also be complementary to our other business here, our budding
business, as we've mentioned, and we do also have a coupling company that sells
into the oilsands and it would be complementary to that because we would have
people coming through town and it would just make it easier to manage all those
businesses.
7521
We have a passion for the business, with Radio CJVR being on the air for
40 years and our ownership for 15, we've proven it. We have the business acumen, we have the
entrepreneurialship, and we have the financial capacity.
7522
We believe that there will be a correct balance in the market with a
small market broadcaster coming into this market, and we believe that we can
deliver what we say we can deliver and we would like the chance to prove
it.
7523
Thank you for your time today.
7524
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Fabro, thank you Mr. Singer, thank you to your
team.
7525
We will take a ten‑minute recess.
Then we will hear the last applicant for the
day.
7526
I will invite all the applicants that have made the decision not to
appear in Phase 2 to inform the Secretary of their decision so that we plan the
lineup for Phase 2. Thank you very
much.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1535 /
Suspension à 1535
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1549 / Reprise
à 1549
7527
THE SECRETARY: Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
7528
Just would like to indicate to the applicants, that if they wish to
comment on any revised financial projections that were filed by other applicants
at this hearing, you may do so by filing written submissions with the commission
no later than Friday, June 30th.
The applicants will have the right to reply by filing written comments no
later than Monday, July 10th.
7529
And we will now proceed with Item 19 on the agenda which is an
application by Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc. for a license to operate an
English‑language commercial specialty FM radio programming undertaking in Fort
McMurray.
7530
The new station would operate on frequency 104.5 megahertz (channel 283B)
with an effective radiated power of 20,000 watts (non‑directional
antenna/antenna height of 54 metres).
7531
Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Allan Hunsperger. He will introduce his colleagues and you
will have 20 minutes for your presentation.
7532
Mr. Hunsperger.
PRESENTATION /
PRÉSENTATION
7533
MR. HUNSPERGER: Thank you,
Madam Secretary.
7534
THE CHAIRPERSON: Could I
have a minute?
7535
MR. HUNSPERGER:
Yes.
7536
THE CHAIRPERSON: Just to
pick up on what the Secretary announced regarding financial
statement.
7537
The Commission expects that those who will file comments will copy all
the other applicants with their comments so that they are made aware that there
have been comments filed. Thank
you.
7538
MR. HUNSPERGER: Good
afternoon, Mr. Chairman, members of the CRTC and Commission
staff.
7539
We are here today to make our second presentation of this hearing for a
new gospel music FM radio station in Fort McMurray.
7540
Before I start our presentation, I would like to reintroduce you to our
team briefly.
7541
I'm Allan Hunsperger, Founder and Director of Touch Canada Broadcasting
Inc.
7542
With me is a team that brings Shine FM to Edmonton and Calgary and CJCA
The Light to Edmonton.
7543
To my immediate left is Jamie Moffat, the Director of Sales for our
Edmonton stations. Jamie has 15
years of experience selling radio advertising in B.C. and Alberta for a variety
of radio companies, including Nornet, Telemedia and
Newcap.
7544
To his left is Chris Ferneyhough of Ipsos‑Reid, the company that
conducted our audience research in Fort McMurray.
7545
And beside him is Bev Gillespie who is the Business Manager of our
stations.
7546
On my immediate right is Malcolm Hunt, Touch Canada Network Program
Manager.
7547
Beside Malcolm is Hollie Taylor who is our afternoon drive host on 105.9
Shine FM in Edmonton.
7548
And beside Holly is Shawna McConechy the Promotions Director in
Edmonton. Shawna has almost 10
years on air and promotions experience in the radio
industry.
7549
Today's application is by Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc. As you are aware, we have developed
significant expertise in the operating gospel music radio stations in
Alberta.
7550
CJRY in Edmonton, known as 105.9 Shine FM, provides a contemporary gospel
music sound aimed at young adults, while AM 930 CJCA The Light in Edmonton
provides a southern gospel sound and significant spoken word programming which
serves an older audience.
7551
In Calgary, CJSI, 88.9 Shine FM provides a format that serves both
audience with contemporary gospel music through most day parts with southern
gospel specialty shows and a range of syndicated and local spoken word
features.
7552
Today's application aims to bring 104.5 Shine FM to Fort
McMurray.
7553
While it may seem counterintuitive that the gospel music station would be
attractive to what people think is the wild and woolly frontier town of Fort
McMurray, in fact our experience leads us to believe that our station would find
a welcome home in this great city.
7554
Fort McMurray is a growing community of families. Where once dad worked in the oil patch
with the family living elsewhere, over the last 10 years the whole family has
migrated there.
7555
Services and organizations such as schools, churches, community
organizations like the Scouts, soccer, hockey leagues, Keyano Community College,
have all become established to meet family needs.
7556
To confirm our market knowledge, and the local interest in our proposed
station, we asked Ipsos‑Reid to survey the market for us. I will ask Chris to describe what
research found for us.
7557
MR. FERNEYHOUGH: Thanks,
Allan, and good afternoon all.
7558
Last August 24th to 28th, Ipsos‑Reid interviewed a random sample of 300
residents of Fort McMurray to test their interest in Touch Canada's proposed
station.
7559
A sample size of 300 provides a margin of error of plus or minus 5.7
percent, 19 times out of 20.
7560
Interest in a contemporary Christian music station is strong among Fort
McMurray residents, as 33 percent of respondents indicate that they would listen
to this type of radio station described.
7561
Interest is even higher among females, as 39 percent say they would
listen to this type of station.
7562
Interest among the different age groups is fairly consistent, as
approximately 1 in 3 of each age group say they would listen to this
station.
7563
Among those who say they would listen to this station, they indicate that
on average, they would listen for just over 90 minutes every
day.
7564
MR. MOFFAT: Thanks,
Chris. The results from Ipsos‑Reid
lead to a number of conclusions for us, particularly when filtered through our
own experience in operating our stations.
7565
First, clearly there is an audience for this kind of station with fully a
third of respondents indicating that they would listen to
it.
7566
Second, in the last BBM book we subscribed to in Calgary, in fall of
2004, we received 4.7 percent of hours tuned in a very competitive market. Given the Ipsos‑Reid research results
and the fact that Fort McMurray's market is less competitive, we are confident
we could reach a 5 share.
7567
Third, a 5 share in a small market reflects the potential of a niche
market format. Our projections for
advertising revenue reflect the modest audience share that we will
reach.
7568
We only expect to receive about $325,000 in advertising in the first year
of operations, growing to $811,000 by the end of the first term of
license.
7569
Yesterday legal counsel indicated that applicants could re‑file financial
projections. We heard standard
estimates of both costs and revenue growth in the market and concur that such
change has occurred.
7570
When we re‑visited our business model, we realized that our salaries
would have to increase. But the
increase in the market revenues essentially covers those increases, leaving us
in more or less the same profit situation.
7571
We have attached copies of the revisions to these remarks, along with the
breakdown of our revenue projections.
7572
Our first year advertising revenues represent about 5 percent of what
most applicants have estimated the potential radio market to be right now. In fact, if the growth in the economy
noted by all continues, the growth alone will accommodate our first 2 revenues
handily.
7573
Of course, we could not keep the doors of the station open based upon
only these advertising revenues.
7574
About one quarter of our revenues will come from the sale of air time to
spoken word programmers. In total,
we will provide 15 hours per week of this kind of
programming.
7575
Rounding out the revenue side are contra‑revenues where we provide air
time in exchange for promotional opportunities such as vehicles, contest prizes
and advertising and other media and other similar costs.
7576
With such relatively modest revenues, we will rely heavily on the
expertise, back office functions and programming sharing with our Edmonton and
Calgary operations, to allow us to provide a high quality sound for Fort
McMurray.
7577
To tell you more about the sound of the station, here is Malcolm
Hunt.
7578
MR. HUNT: Thanks, Jamie, and
good afternoon Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission.
7579
Gospel music is undergoing an incredible period of growth in the
U.S. In our brief we provided some
illustrations of this.
7580
This growth is happening here in Canada as well. The number and diversity of the artists
recording across Canada is growing.
7581
Perhaps the best way for me to explain to you how dynamic the gospel
music industry has become, is to list some of the 23 categories at the annual
Shai Awards which Dionne Smith discussed with you the other
day.
7582
The number of categories rivals the Juno Awards, including contemporary
artist of the year, group, male and female vocalists, as well as worship album,
hard rock, inspirational, rap/hip‑hop, southern gospel and alternative
rock.
7583
Well over 60 artists were nominated in 2005 and there is a special
emphasis on new and emerging talent.
7584
At Shine FM and CJCA, we play many of these artists, including the 2005
winners in several of these categories.
Some of the winners we are currently playing in high rotation include
Starfield, Thousand Foot Krutch and Amanda Falk who also won a Juno last
April.
7585
Touch Canada is an important sponsor of this event and we propose to
devote an additional $56,000 over the course of the license to the Shai Awards
if we are licensed in Fort McMurray.
7586
104.5 Shine FM, Fort McMurray, will provide a mix of programming similar
to the one we described in our Grande Prairie
presentation.
7587
Essentially our station will be a mix of adult contemporary and CHR
styles of gospel music, supplemented by southern gospel, rock and hip‑hop
specialty music programs.
7588
We will play this contemporary mix of programming from 6 a.m. to 9 p.m.,
Monday to Friday, along with news, surveillance and other spoken word
features.
7589
On the weekends we will provide some special interest programs. We will serve our southern gospel
listeners with the programs "Gospel Greats" and "Homecoming
Radio".
7590
We will also serve the younger demographic in Fort McMurray by providing
a range of programs such as "The Vibe Radio Network", "Sound of Light", "Z‑Jam"
and "The Red Letter Rock 20 Countdown".
7591
Sunday morning will focus more on praise and worship music. Someone who isn't familiar with gospel
music might consider all of what we play to be praise and worship music. However, like southern gospel, praise
and worship is a style unto itself.
7592
From 6 to 10 a.m. we will broadcast "Power Praise", a Touch Canada
produced program which will be followed by "Heart of Worship", a 2 hour
syndicated program of artist interviews and CD
reviews.
7593
As we outlined in our Grande Prairie presentation, our stations continue
to exceed the regulatory requirement for Canadian content.
7594
Of course a radio station is a lot more than music. Shine FM, Fort McMurray, will provide a
range of news and other spoken word features totalling 31.4 hours per
week.
7595
From inception we will provide major news, weather, sports and other
information packages on the half hour during the morning drive period, one at
noon hour, and on the hour in the afternoon drive.
7596
In total, we will provide 6.6 hours of information programming per week,
of which just over half will be news.
7597
In addition, 8.3 hours will be devoted to local reflection and announcer
content, an hour and a half to human interest and comedy features, and there
will be 15 hours of brokered programming.
7598
As we mentioned in our Grande Prairie presentation, we take the
requirement for balance seriously, and we are willing to accept the conditions
of license we discussed with you yesterday.
7599
To speak more about the program flow, here is Hollie
Taylor.
7600
MS TAYLOR: Malcolm laid out
the skeleton of what we will program at Shine FM in Fort McMurray. I'm here to address how this plan will
translate to the on‑air sound that the announcers will
execute.
7601
An important part of our reaching out to our listeners, is our talk to
them during our music programs.
7602
We estimate that announcer talk is about 8 1/3 hours per week. This includes talk about the music, the
artists and about what is going on around town.
7603
For example, I'm sure you heard all about the talk about the Oiler roller
coaster run for the Stanley Cup. In
Fort McMurray this same type of talk will occur when the Junior Hockey Team, the
Barons, are in their playoff run.
7604
Community events and promotions would be a priority for our announcers as
they are the keys in setting us apart from the other options that exist, such as
satellite radio, internet and cell phone downloads.
7605
Taking calls from the listeners to record and air, reading our e‑mails
and taking requests, will also aid in our attempts to be as local and topical as
possible.
7606
Another example of our involvement in our communities is our community
spotlight, a one minute PSA in rotation several times a day that will help local
organizations get the word out about their events.
7607
These are but a few examples of how we serve our communities. To talk further about our community
involvement and promotions, here is Shawna McConechy.
7608
MS McCONECHY: A major
element of what we do at Touch Canada Broadcasting through our promotions
department is to build and strengthen relationships between
communities.
7609
Street level marketing is key.
Being at the events, being on the streets, personalizing with our
listeners, is what makes us a family friendly station.
7610
We continuously try to ensure an on‑air personality is at every event for
our listeners to meet. We find this
hands‑on approach is extremely successful with our
listeners.
7611
Listeners want to meet the people who get them up in the morning, who
keep them company on their drive home and who bring them the brand of music they
love.
7612
We are excited with the opportunity to be a part of the community events
that happen in and around Fort McMurray, like the "Petro Canada Frosty Frolics"
which support both the Public Library and Fort McMurray Food
Bank.
7613
There is also the "Family Fun Day Skate" at Borealis Park, a very similar
event to the one 88.9 Shine FM runs in Calgary.
7614
We also intend to be a part of "The Country Fair and Market" that is held
numerous times throughout the year.
The event took place 8 times in 2005.
7615
These 3 events are very grassroots and it's what we like to do
best.
7616
Fundraising is another large component of what we do at Touch
Canada. We wholeheartedly believe
in giving back to the communities we serve.
7617
For instance, all of our existing stations hold 3 annual
"radio‑thons". We pre‑promote these
12 hour live radio fundraisers with live on‑air chat and with pre‑produced
promos.
7618
A few of the charities we have assisted are the Calgary Dream Centre, the
Kids' Kottage in Edmonton and The Mustard Seed in both
cities.
7619
We are very pleased to say that in the last year, between these 3
stations, we have raised over 1.1 million dollars.
7620
We have also raised money for various other charities through live on‑air
auctions, web auctions and through a variety of events like fundraising dinners
and pledge‑gathering activities.
7621
We would love to duplicate these fundraising formats for local charities
in Fort McMurray if our application is granted.
7622
MR. HUNT: As you are aware
there are gospel stations across this great country, many of them low power and
many of them struggling.
7623
The fans of our kinds of social family‑friendly programming really feel
the need for stations like Shine FM and The Light. They don't hear the music that we play
anywhere else on the radio dial.
7624
We often have comments from our listeners who feel our popular‑based
music programming is a safe place for them to dial in. They like the fact that they can listen
to contemporary music which they do not have to turn off when their kids are
around.
7625
At the same time we recognize we are a niche format, attracting about 5
percent of the tuning in the communities we serve.
7626
While such a share is more than adequate in Canada's larger markets like
Montreal, Toronto or Vancouver, it does not attract sufficient revenues in
smaller markets to sustain high quality service.
7627
Our vision is to touch as many Albertans as possible, leveraging our
presence in Edmonton and Calgary to ensure excellent
programming.
7628
Touch Canada Broadcasting is at this hearing with 2 applications to
provide service in northern Alberta.
7629
There is a vision which motivates our approach. Additional stations will create a
stronger foundation to extend our unique format to other
communities.
7630
This is why we have the confidence to make a number of commitments. We are confident we can meet and exceed
the required Canadian content levels in all of our FM
stations.
7631
We at present provide $28,560 annually to the Shai Awards from our 3
stations and we have proposed specific contributions in each of the applications
we have filed.
7632
The granting of additional Shine FM stations to our group will permit us
to launch 2 new weekly programs: a
new national gospel music countdown featuring both Canadian and international
performers, and a totally Canadian gospel countdown show.
7633
We will air both programs in each of the markets we serve and make them
available to gospel music stations across the country at no cost other than
delivery.
7634
MR. HUNSPERGER: Mr. Chairman
and members of the Commission, Touch Canada Broadcasting is very excited to
propose the opportunity to serve gospel music fans in Fort
McMurray.
7635
I can remember back in the mid‑sixties, travelling to Fort McMurray with
some of my college friends on a painting contract. Back then Fort McMurray was going to be
this little boomtown because of something people were calling the
"tarsands".
7636
None of my college buddies, nor myself, could have imagined what is Fort
McMurray today. If we had, perhaps
we would have bought some land or even some houses we painted and just maybe
things might have been different today.
7637
Last month, when I was up in Fort McMurray, we had some time, so my
lifelong buddy who has lived in Fort McMurray for the last 30 years drove me
around to every neighbourhood in Fort McMurray.
7638
It looked like any other city in Alberta ‑‑ parks, community
centres, churches, strip malls, condos, apartments, playgrounds, all to serve
families that have now made their home in this beautiful Alberta
city.
7639
Fort McMurray is a place that none of us really understand, except for
this. Twenty years from now, people
will still be moving to Fort McMurray and they will still be mining the raw
resources that this province has in that area.
7640
Touch Canada Broadcasting wants to be there serving this community with
our contemporary gospel format, family friendly kind of
radio.
7641
We believe that our niche application is in keeping with the spirit of
the Broadcasting Act that stipulates the system should be diverse, balanced and
representative of all Canadians.
7642
While our gospel format may not attract a large audience, this audience
has a need to be served.
7643
Mr. Chairman, thank you for your attention and we would be pleased to
respond to your questions.
7644
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr.
Hunsperger.
7645
You have filed copies of your revised financials with us, as of
today. I will ask the Secretary to
make sure that a copy is made available in the public records, so those who want
to consult them can go and review them now. Since you're the last item and it may be
of interest to the other applicants ‑‑
7646
MR. HUNSPERGER:
Yes.
7647
THE CHAIRMAN: ‑‑ I want to makes sure that it is done as well as
expeditial as possible.
7648
Commissioner Langford will ask you the first
questions.
7649
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Just
like old times, isn't it?
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7650
How was the kick‑off to Lent, by the way?
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7651
MS TAYLOR: It was
fabulous.
7652
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Was
it?
7653
MS TAYLOR: You should have
been there.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7654
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Good
answer. Okay.
7655
I don't think we need to drag this out. We have heard you on Grande Prairie, and
as you said some of the stuff is kind of repetitive on format ‑‑ not
repetitive, but I mean similar, almost the same. So we can whiz through some of
that.
7656
But I do have some questions and then I do have some uncertainties about
some of the numbers given this afternoon.
They don't quite seem to tie up with some of the other ones. So, I will have a few questions, but
hopefully we can keep the pain to a minimum.
7657
And I think we sorted out a lot on the whole question of religious
balance. I think the undertaking
you have given here today sells it as far as I'm
concerned.
7658
My colleagues have some questions, but I think we are finally all singing
on the same page there. And I think
that is major progress. I hope you
agree.
7659
I want to start, Mr. Hunsperger, with some questions directly at
you. I think you are the
appropriate person.
7660
I don't quite understand why some applications are under the name of
Hunsperger and some are under the name of Touch. I just don't get
it.
7661
I have read the corporate breakdown that you have filed in Section 2 of
the standard application, but is there a strategy here that is quite simple but
I'm just missing?
7662
MR. HUNSPERGER: I don't
think there is any strategy. I
mean, because Grande Prairie Radio Limited is not an incorporated company at
this point, that is really who did the application for Grande
Prairie.
7663
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay.
7664
MR. HUNSPERGER: I'm just
being the representative. And Touch
Canada, the same thing, I'm just a representative.
7665
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. So, they basically all
go back to the same shareholder, the same 100 percent
shareholder?
7666
MR. HUNSPERGER: Yes,
sir.
7667
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. Thank you. I just wasn't sure
whether ‑‑
7668
THE CHAIRPERSON: Not for the
case of Grande Prairie, it's a 50:50 ‑‑
7669
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Yes. Fifty percent goes to a
Mr. Teichroeb and 50 percent goes to Touch Canada
Broadcasting.
7670
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That
is quite right. You have a partner
in Grande Prairie.
7671
MR. HUNSPERGER: Yes,
sir.
7672
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Do
you have any partners, just out of curiosity, for any of your other licenses or
do they all go back to Mr. Allard.
7673
MR. HUNSPERGER: Mr. Allard,
yes.
7674
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Mr.
Allard, sorry.
7675
MR. HUNSPERGER:
Yes.
7676
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I
live close to Quebec, so it's Allard, you know.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7677
If I stay here another week it will be "A‑lard" or something. I don't know. I will get it. I have a pee cap in my bag. I'm practising.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7678
Okay. Now, you have stations
in Calgary, Edmonton. You may have
one in Grande Prairie.
7679
And as a standalone in Fort McMurray, what we have heard from a lot of
other applicants is this an expensive proposition.
7680
This is an expensive town.
And it's an isolated town.
And it's hard to put synergies if you don't have anything to make
synergies with.
7681
We heard from Golden West that they would actually, you know, try their
best with things like accounting and stuff like that, to keep the cost
down. Everyone seems to be
conscious of costs in this location.
7682
What are you going to do?
Have you got a strategy using some of your other stations to help you to
meet the incumbent and the cost factor?
7683
MR. HUNSPERGER: We do, and I
will give that over to our business manager, Beverley.
7684
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. Thank
you.
7685
MS GILLESPIE: Hello. Yes, we do have synergies in our
administration, our traffic, our H.R., our back office. We also have synergies with our
tech.
7686
Malcolm can explain later on how he is going to handle the programming
staff.
7687
But we do realize the high cost of the wages out in Fort McMurray, so we
are going to try the best we can to use as much back office staff in Edmonton as
we can.
7688
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Edmonton would probably be where the connection would
be.
7689
MS GILLESPIE: Being the Head
Office, yes.
7690
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And
do you have central accounting for all of your stations?
7691
MS GILLESPIE:
Yes.
7692
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Yes,
you do. So you are ‑‑ you and
Mr. Hildebrand are kind of in tandem on that approach. Probably everyone is these
days.
7693
There is a sentence in your, in Mr. Hunt's part of your opening
presentation today, just near the bottom of page 13:
7694
"Our vision is to touch as many Albertans as possible, leveraging our
presence in Edmonton and Calgary to ensure excellent programming."(As
Read)
7695
How will that sort of synergistic statement work?
7696
MR. HUNT: Well we do
have ‑‑ most of our production is done out of Edmonton. Most of our writing is done out of
Edmonton. And I think a lot of our
music is scheduled out of Edmonton.
7697
Of course in each of the stations that we have, they have separate logs,
they have separate music logs.
Everything is completely separated.
7698
But we utilize that Edmonton Head Office as sort of the central zone so,
you know, we have some more staff there in Edmonton as opposed to even Calgary,
we have more staff in Edmonton because it is sort of the hub. That answer
the ‑‑
7699
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: No,
we are getting there, but when you say all your writing is done Edmonton, can
you give me a little more information on that? Did you say all your writing
was ‑‑
7700
MR. HUNT: The commercial
writing, the writing for commercials.
7701
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Oh,
commercial writing.
7702
MR. HUNT:
Yeah.
7703
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We
are not talking about programming, then.
7704
MR. HUNT: Programming
writing?
7705
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You
are not scripting ‑‑
7706
MR. HUNT: No, no,
no.
7707
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: ‑‑ announcers
or ‑‑
7708
MR. HUNT: No,
no.
7709
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: ‑‑ news or that sort of
thing.
7710
MR. HUNT:
No.
7711
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
No. Okay. Maybe the way of the future, but anyway,
you are not yet, at any rate.
7712
Okay, then sticking with financial, since we somehow started there, I
wanted to ‑‑ and you have tabled new financial statements today. And we have got those on the record and
we will look at them. So, some of
my numbers, if I bring them up, might be off and you can correct
them.
7713
But I wanted to look at expenses which were ‑‑ I think you filed on
March 30th of this year, some revised expenses and perhaps some more today. I haven't compared them to see whether
they are still the same.
7714
But I guess maybe the simplest way would be to take me through the big
items.
7715
So, for example wages ‑‑ everyone here is talking wages in this
town, or in the town of Fort McMurray.
7716
Can you give me an idea of your workforce and put some kind of round
salary figures beside them?
7717
MR. HUNSPERGER: I will let
Malcolm talk about the programming.
And then maybe Beverley can round that off with how we look at that
increase.
7718
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay.
7719
MR. HUNT: Of course we need
to be ‑‑ obviously we have talked about it ‑‑ conscious of the costs
in, really in any market that we are in, Fort McMurray included in that of
course.
7720
But, you know our plan is to have very similar staff to what we proposed
in Grande Prairie: a live morning
person, a live afternoon person and a part‑time co‑host for the morning who will
take care of the news.
7721
That is really, you know, the general plan for most of our new start‑ups
in terms of programming, because again we go back to a lot of the synergies that
we can utilize in Edmonton and the rest of our company.
7722
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So, I
have got 2 2 people for programming, that's
it?
7723
MR. HUNT:
Yes.
7724
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Does
that give you 7 days a week?
7725
MR. HUNT: Yes, it
does.
7726
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It
does.
7727
MR. HUNT:
Yes.
7728
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. Can you put some round
figures beside those live morning, live p.m. and the sort of half person here
for morning?
7729
MR. HUNT: Did you want
budget figures for that?
7730
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Yes,
please.
7731
MS GILLESPIE: Okay. What we have done with the revised
amounts that we have given was we have added an additional 60 percent increase
in our programming.
7732
So, now currently our programming staff runs around $110,000 plus another
10 percent for benefits. And
$24,000 for what we're allocating for our writer and our creative writer in
Edmonton.
7733
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So
this a third, leave the half ‑‑ well, this is yet another category, the
writer.
7734
MS GILLESPIE: Yes. It is still under our programming
expenses though.
7735
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. So you had given
me ‑‑ I just want to make sure ‑‑ we have got live morning, live p.m.,
and a kind of half co‑host. And
that is $110,000 plus ten for benefits?
7736
MS GILLESPIE: Ten percent,
which is around $13,400.
7737
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Ten
percent for benefits, okay.
7738
MS GILLESPIE:
Yes.
7739
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And
then we have a writer.
7740
MS GILLESPIE: One full‑time
position which is a writer/creative writer/production person which would bring
in $24,000 annually.
7741
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And
any benefits ‑‑ another 10 percent on benefits
or ‑‑
7742
MS GILLESPIE: That 10
percent is included in the $13,000.
7743
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Did
you say $13,000?
7744
MS GILLESPIE:
Yes.
7745
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I
thought you said $24,000.
7746
MS GILLESPIE:
$24,000 ‑‑
7747
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Yes.
7748
MS GILLESPIE: ‑‑ is the salary for the one full‑time
production/creative writer.
7749
And I gave you a figure of $13,000.
That is 10 percent of our entire promotion salaries ‑‑ or, sorry our
programming salaries. Ten percent
of the entire benefits is $13,000.
7750
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Got
it. Okay, $134,000 plus
10.
7751
MS GILLESPIE:
Yes.
7752
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. So, what else? What else have we got for
people?
7753
MS GILLESPIE: For
people?
7754
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Yes,
please.
7755
MS GILLESPIE: Okay. Next we have, in our administration we
have an office manager which at this point it $48,000 plus another 10 percent
for benefits.
7756
And that is currently roughly 50 percent higher than what we pay in
Calgary and 10 percent higher than we pay an experienced one in
Edmonton.
7757
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay.
7758
MS GILLESPIE: In our
technical department, we have a part‑time position also in Edmonton. That is $12,000 with 10 percent
benefits.
7759
We also have a contract, but that is not as part of our
employee.
7760
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Yes.
7761
MS GILLESPIE: That is just
part of our technical.
7762
And then for our sales department we pay slightly higher than the rest of
the other radios out there, slightly because we are in a niche market and we
want to attract someone.
7763
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Yes.
7764
MS GILLESPIE: We give 22
percent commission plus the 10 percent benefits and we have a General Sales
Manager getting another 8 percent.
7765
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That
is for one salesperson, 22 percent, they are working on straight commissions,
then.
7766
MS GILLESPIE:
Yes.
7767
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Plus
10 percent benefit and then you add 8 ‑‑
7768
MS GILLESPIE: Another 8
percent commission for the sales manager.
7769
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So 30
percent.
7770
MS GILLESPIE:
Yes.
7771
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: For
the sales manager.
7772
MS GILLESPIE: Sales
manager.
7773
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Plus
the 10 percent benefits.
7774
MS GILLESPIE: Plus the
benefits, yes.
7775
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And
that is the whole lot?
No?
7776
MS GILLESPIE: And we have a
half position for Promotions Director, sitting at $12,000.
7777
So our wage salary expense ratio roughly right now is about 46 percent of
expenses.
7778
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What
was that ratio again, sorry?
7779
MS GILLESPIE: Forty‑six
percent.
7780
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Of ‑‑ and what was ‑‑
7781
MS GILLESPIE: Of
expenses.
7782
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Sorry. Got to go right back
to basics here for me. Just to
start ‑‑
7783
MS GILLESPIE: Our salary
wage expense ratio is 46 percent.
7784
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank
you very much. Been making notes of
this please (inaudible) ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7785
I am not writing as fast as I used to, you know. Okay.
7786
All right, that covers that.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7787
And I thank you very much.
It really helps us make sense of these things because we have got filing
and then re‑filing and then some adjustments.
7788
And if we don't get it straight now, you know, it is kind of expensive to
call another hearing just to get this stuff done.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7789
Okay. Let's look then
at ‑‑ costs and salaries, I have got that done ‑‑ of studio and
antenna costs and that sort of thing.
Can you take me through that?
7790
Are they any ‑‑ first of all are there any changes there at all from
March 30th?
7791
MS GILLESPIE:
No.
7792
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
No. And it is all in the
March 30th one?
7793
MS GILLESPIE:
Yes.
7794
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: No
changes at all? Okay. So, studio ‑‑
‑‑‑ Off microphone / Hors
microphone
7795
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Do I
need this right now? No? Oh, good.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7796
Give it to me later. It's a
good thing they are nice.
7797
Okay. So, studio and
antenna, no change. And are you
still going to share antenna space with the CBC, that is still
on?
7798
MR. HUNSPERGER: Yes,
sir.
7799
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. Thank you very
much.
7800
Now, revenue figures on brokered and contra‑programming, you made quite a
point of that, I think a couple of times this afternoon in your opening remarks
saying, you know, as a niche market ‑‑ I'm not trying to coach you, but
paraphrasing you ‑‑ you can't make it go, at least in the early innings, on
advertising revenue, so you rely on brokered and contra.
7801
Could I just have the most up‑to‑date figures on brokered fees and
contra, the revenues, just to be sure I have got those?
7802
MS GILLESPIE: They haven't
changed in our proposal there.
7803
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. There are no changes
at all on that.
7804
MS GILLESPIE: No,
no.
7805
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. Thank
you.
7806
MS GILLESPIE: The only we
changed was our local advertising.
7807
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay.
7808
Now the contra, how do you reckon that exactly? I mean how can you be sure of it, is it
just experience or ‑‑
7809
MR. HUNSPERGER: Well, what
we do is we, you know, it's a trade off, obviously and we have really tightened
that up in the last few years, thanks to Beverley.
7810
But we have made sure that if we can make some trades, like, for example,
with cars ‑‑
7811
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Right.
7812
MR. HUNSPERGER: ‑‑ or whatever, then we do that. And we give the ‑‑ it works, like,
for example, on a car, it works great for an advertiser because he basically,
the car dealer, gives us a car and he puts it under his demo
package.
7813
So he gets paid by the company to have that as a demo, plus he gets
advertising from us and we get a station vehicle that gives us
promotion.
7814
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: God,
I hope Revenue Canada's not listening.
That sounds so complicated doesn't it?
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7815
THE CHAIRPERSON: Can I
comment on that?
7816
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Yes.
7817
THE CHAIRPERSON: Just a
minute.
7818
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Absolutely. The Chairman has
a question.
7819
THE CHAIRPERSON: Where do
you put the expense for the contra?
7820
MS GILLESPIE: It is under
our sales, advertising and promotion.
So that 391 for example, in the first year ‑‑
7821
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It
includes ‑‑
7822
MS GILLESPIE: ‑‑ includes the 140, yes.
7823
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay.
7824
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. Moving right
along ‑‑ and you are confident, just from experience
again.
7825
Is that really the answer ‑‑ you have done this before and these
numbers are reasonable. Is that
essentially what you are saying?
7826
MR. HUNSPERGER: Yes,
sir.
7827
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. I mean, I wouldn't
know, so it's good to hear it from you.
7828
Nobody has ever given me a car.
7829
MR. MOFFAT: Well, if you
listen to 105.9 Shine FM in Edmonton, you might win one.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7830
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I
might win a car.
7831
MR. MOFFAT:
Yes.
7832
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Or I
could roll up the rim.
Yes.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7833
Then on the brokered programming, you have got numbers there, they are
fairly substantial.
7834
But how sure of those are you?
Do you have agreements with the program suppliers? Or this again just
experience?
7835
MR. HUNSPERGER: Well, it's
both. Let me say, we don't have
agreements as far as written contracts as yet.
7836
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Right.
7837
MR. HUNSPERGER: But we work
very closely with the agencies that handle the programs and they have told us
verbally that the clients that they have very much want to get into these
markets and have the dollars to do so.
7838
And we also speak of experience in that area.
7839
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. And do these basically
match up with the kind of numbers you are getting in other stations for the same
sort of programs?
7840
MR. HUNSPERGER: Yes,
sir.
7841
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. So we can be confident
that they are pretty close.
7842
MR. HUNSPERGER: Yes,
sir.
7843
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. Now, speaking of
brokered, why don't we just use that as a little bridge to move from money to
programming, because I somehow have not understood correctly ‑‑ and I guess
I apologize for it, unless you are going to apologize to me and tell me you have
made a mistake or something.
7844
But I heard you say a number of times this afternoon, somebody in your
team said, I think at least twice, that you ‑‑ yes, here we have it at
least once on page 9, talking about programming.
7845
And there are a number of figures in here that don't jive with what I was
able to pull out of your written submissions. On brokered, you have 15 hours of
brokered programming:
7846
"There will be 15 hours of brokered programming."(As
read)
7847
I have a higher number than that.
When I look at your supplementary brief, page 3, I read, just about 2/3
of the way down:
7848
"Eighty percent of the total weekly program will be locally
produced. Twenty percent will be
made available for purchase to organizations that provide spoken word programs,
such as Focus on the Family and Insight for Living."(As
read)
7849
Now, assuming you are going at 126 hours, 20 percent of that would be
closer to 25 hours than 15, and there lies my confusion.
7850
MR. HUNSPERGER: That is
incorrect and we apologize, sir.
7851
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Which
is incorrect?
7852
MR. HUNSPERGER: The
80:20.
7853
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Ah.
Okay.
7854
MR. HUNSPERGER: The 15 hours
is the correct one.
7855
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. So you will be a
little patient with some of my questions if they tend to be maybe not quite
right, because I have prepared them on what you have presented
before.
7856
MS GILLESPIE: Just for
further clarification, we made it available, but in the first year we have 3
hours per day of brokered spoken word, which is 15.
7857
The second year we were going to go to 4 hours a day which brings it up
to 20.
7858
And then again for the third year being 5 hours a day, bringing it up to
25, and we wouldn't want to go much more than that.
7859
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So we
are at 20 percent then.
7860
MS GILLESPIE:
Yes.
7861
MR. HUNSPERGER: In the
seventh year.
7862
MS GILLESPIE: In the third
year.
7863
MR. HUNSPERGER: Oh, third
year, okay.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7864
MS GILLESPIE: Got to check
those numbers.
7865
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Yes,
repeat, no.
Okay.
7866
So ‑‑ well let's go through it. I mean, is it 80:20 by year 3, or is it
somehow the 15 works as an average, or how do I understand
this?
7867
MS GILLESPIE: Well, what we
have in our budget is we have 3 hours per day, the 15 hours for the first
year. Then we have 20 for the
second. Then we have 5 hours per
day, in the third year and that is the most we are going to do for our
programming.
7868
Then after that for revenue we are going to increase it by 5 percent a
year after that. Not increasing the
hours, just increasing our billing.
7869
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Just
increasing your ‑‑
7870
MS GILLESPIE: The
billing.
7871
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The
fees for ‑‑
7872
MS GILLESPIE: The fees,
yeah.
7873
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: ‑‑ that you charge.
7874
MS GILLESPIE: So, in a way
they are both right. Page 9 of the
opening statement is right about year one.
7875
After that we start to ratchet it up, as Ms. Gillespie says. And then by year 3, page 3 of the
supplementary brief is right.
7876
MR. HUNSPERGER: Yes,
sir.
7877
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. Good. Everybody is right. What a wonderful
world.
7878
Now, where do I go from here?
Just hold on for a second.
7879
So, let's finish off this brokered.
Now we know how much there is ‑‑ bring you back to a discussion you
and I have had before ‑‑ how do you control the content? How do you ensure that you can meet the
COL on balance, plus the regulations on ethics and solicitation that are so much
a part of religious broadcasting in Canada?
7880
MR. HUNSPERGER: I will let
Mr. Hunt answer that.
7881
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay.
7882
MR. HUNT: Well, as we have
mentioned before, we receive a Q‑sheet which is an explanation of the content of
each of the programs that we air.
7883
And that content is reviewed before it ever gets to
air.
7884
And of course we, you know, we have been doing this for about 12 years
now. And again, we haven't had a
single complaint about anything regarding balance or any other
issue.
7885
And we also have the mechanisms in place in terms of the recorded phone
lines, as we mentioned before.
7886
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Right.
7887
MR. HUNT: And we feel that
we meet the required balance ‑‑
7888
MR. HUNSPERGER: We also,
sir, you know, have over the years, we have had many broadcasters want to put
their program on our station because we won the International award, for
example, of an AM radio station in Canada by one of the programs that we have
on.
7889
So we know that people are wanting to, but there are programs that we
refuse to operate because either the content of it or the solicitation of funds
on it, we have eliminated those.
7890
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay.
7891
MR. HUNSPERGER: Our programs
that we have on our company now and our ‑‑ what we are broadcasting ‑‑
do not solicit funds and do not break the ethics of the rulings that are in line
with the Broadcasting Act.
7892
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So,
you wouldn't have any trouble accepting as a COL, not only the balance policy,
but the ethics policy and the solicitation policy?
7893
MR. HUNSPERGER: No problem
at all.
7894
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. Thank you very
much.
7895
Now, just one question, Mr. Hunt, about content sheets. Are these précis or is this, you know,
are these précis, short summaries of what you are getting, or this the whole
script you are getting?
7896
MR. HUNT: No, you get a
snapshot, if you will ‑‑
7897
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay.
7898
MR. HUNT: ‑‑ of what the program is about.
7899
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
That's what you get.
7900
MR. HUNT:
Yes.
7901
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Now,
what have you got in place in case the snapshot was misleading and someone is
going bonkers and making ‑‑ and the program is inappropriate, to put it
that way.
7902
Can you stop it? Do you have
a way to deal with that?
7903
MR. HUNSPERGER: Well, yes we
do. First of all, our staff
download it all and, in other words, every program that comes to us is now
downloaded into our computer.
7904
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay.
7905
MR. HUNSPERGER: So, they
download that. If they ever found
anything that they even thought was going sideways here to the
Q‑sheets ‑‑
7906
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Yes.
7907
MR. HUNSPERGER: ‑‑ they would notify Mr. Hunt and go from
there.
7908
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So
it's pre‑screened by your staff?
7909
MR. HUNSPERGER: Yes. We have never had it
happen.
7910
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Right.
7911
MR. HUNSPERGER: But I can
tell you, we keep in personal contact, even, with people that have programs on
our station.
7912
For example, I go down to the United States. Jamie also goes down. We talk to them face to
face.
7913
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Yes.
7914
MR. HUNSPERGER: We meet with
them. There are even people like
Vision TV representatives are there.
7915
And we talk about the concerns of Canada. And we talk about what would be
appropriate to air on the station and what is not appropriate. It might be appropriate in American, but
it's not appropriate in Canada.
7916
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Right.
7917
MR. HUNSPERGER: And so we
keep those relationships very well.
I fly down the States several times in the year to make sure that it's a
face to face relationship with these people.
7918
I have got an invitation to go to Lincoln, Nebraska, in September,
there's a ‑‑ one of our programmers that I have never met personally, "Back
to the Bible" ‑‑ he's a very good guy and doesn't bring controversial
things. But we are going to fly
down there and meet him and talk to him about what's happening in Canada and
those kinds of things.
7919
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well,
that's good. So you are doing your
due‑diligence.
7920
MR. HUNSPERGER: Trying
to.
7921
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Yes. Because, I mean, I
think you mentioned Vision and you know as well as I do, they are incredibly
respectable.
7922
MR. HUNSPERGER:
Yes.
7923
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And
hard‑working ‑‑
7924
MR. HUNSPERGER:
Yes.
7925
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: ‑‑ programmer. But they got caught
flat‑footed ‑‑
7926
MR. HUNSPERGER:
Yes.
7927
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: ‑‑ not too long ago. And you know, red faces all around, but
it still caused quite a controversy.
And so, it can happen.
7928
MR. HUNSPERGER: Yes, that's
true. But all of our broadcasters
also know that there is a line‑up of people that want on our air. And so, they wouldn't want to be taken
off.
7929
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I
see.
7930
MR. HUNSPERGER: And we would
take them off if that indeed happens, as we have done that with one individual
already.
7931
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. Thank you. I think that is enough on that
subject.
7932
And your agreement to abide by the usual COL's is certainly helpful. And your due‑diligence and your practice
gives us the comfort I think we need in that area.
7933
Let's move on to your own spoken word because I don't think we will have
to spend too long on musical format.
It sounds like I have heard about that before this week, but we will
touch on it to be certain.
7934
Again, I have a few problems with the numbers I am seeing on page 9,
which I think were Mr. Hunt's bailiwick, but I can't ‑‑ I don't
remember.
7935
Anyway, page 9, the large paragraph in the middle of the page of your
opening remarks has a number of numbers.
And you say:
7936
"Shine FM, Fort McMurray, will provide a full range of news and other
spoken word features, totalling 31.4 hours per week."(As
read)
7937
Now, the number that I have extracted, the total number I have extracted
from your written submissions, is 27 percent. So does that jive? Is that what the 27 percent
is?
7938
We can always call on Commissioner Cram to do the math, but we will be
here till midnight, so...
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7939
Is that about 27 percent?
7940
THE CHAIRPERSON: Which page
is the 25(sic) percent, if you mind me asking for
the ‑‑
7941
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The
27 percent?
7942
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Yes.
7943
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Oh,
boy.
7944
MR. HUNSPERGER: I'm sorry,
27 percent according to our Sales Manager here, is about 34
percent.
7945
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Thirty‑four.
7946
MR. HUNSPERGER: I'm sorry,
34 hours ‑‑ 27 ‑‑
7947
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Thirty‑four hours, right.
7948
MR. HUNSPERGER:
Yes.
7949
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And
you have got 31.4 here. So how do
you ‑‑ and actually I do have that written down, 34, in my
notes.
7950
So how do you explain that small discrepancy? What happened to the other ‑‑ I
don't know, 2 1/2 hours, or whatever?
‑‑‑ Pause
7951
Well, maybe somebody can think about that. I mean, it's not the end of the world,
but we are just trying to get this accurate and when numbers change, it makes it
a bit difficult.
7952
MR. HUNSPERGER: I might
error here, by sticking my foot in my mouth, which I do several times, but this
one on page 9 would be the accurate one.
7953
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. So, the 34 hours that
I got from somewhere else ‑‑ but I didn't make it up.
7954
So, maybe Steve as you were trying so hard to hand me notes
before ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7955
You could hand me a note on this one sometime this afternoon. Okay. So we will leave that, and we will leave
that with Steve. And he will bring
us a note ‑‑ or not.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7956
I have on news, weather and sports, from your written submission, 7 hours
and 9 minutes. But then today, in
the middle of the same paragraph:
7957
"In total we will provide 6.6 hours of information programming per week,
of which just over half will be news."(As read)
7958
So, that just seems ‑‑ like just over half of 6.6 would be, say,
4. And maybe in this sort of 4
hours today you haven't added the sports and weather.
7959
I don't know, but I'm confused a little bit. These numbers are not, they are not
jiving,
7960
MR. HUNSPERGER: May I try to
make an explanation of this?
7961
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Sure.
7962
MR. HUNSPERGER: Mr. Hunt
wasn't involved in putting the numbers together on our original
application.
7963
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay.
7964
MR. HUNSPERGER: Since then,
because we have been going before the CRTC more than once ‑‑ I mean, the
last time we were in front of the CRTC was 10 years ago, so ‑‑ I'm talking
about since Calgary.
7965
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I was
going to say, it may seem like 10 years.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7966
But it wasn't that long ago.
7967
MR. HUNSPERGER: So, what has
happened is he has ‑‑ we, as you can tell, we have put all out staff who
are responsible for the various divisions of the application ‑‑ we have now
put them, like hands‑on.
7968
For example ‑‑
7969
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay.
7970
MR. HUNSPERGER: ‑‑ the application that we are going to be filing
for Regina and Saskatoon, Malcolm did all the programming, Jamie did the
sales.
7971
I mean we got everybody now hands on, where before it was kind of myself
and my assistant doing it within our office.
7972
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. So,
how ‑‑
7973
MR. HUNSPERGER: And so that
is where you get discrepancy.
7974
So, what you have here on page 9, is really the correct
one.
7975
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: How
do you want to do it then? I mean,
we need to know, obviously, because it's a competitive process and we need to
know about local reflection and news.
7976
And, you know, the people from ‑‑ the other applicants ‑‑ want
to know as well.
7977
We can sit here and I can say, you said 7 hours, now you are saying 6
hours and we won't get anywhere.
7978
I see Mr. Hunt ‑‑ I suspect we won't ‑‑ has got a pile of
statistics, he has got a fistful of them there and he is looking not
happy.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7979
And Steve on our side, who I have assigned to this, isn't looking any
happier than Mr. Hunt.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
7980
So, could we go through ‑‑ I am going to suggest this, and maybe
legal can kind of give me a nod if they think it's a good idea, because it's a
little unparalleled, unprecedented.
7981
Could we ‑‑ could I go through some questions with you and we will
leave the answers blank and you could fill them in and get them to us, get us
the accurate answers on this?
7982
Because it's not something, I don't think ‑‑ I'm thinking aloud
here ‑‑ It's not something the other applicants are going to want to reply
to, really. They are just going to
want to know. And we are going to
want to know. And we are around 7
hours or 6 hours, I don't know.
7983
What ‑‑ do my colleagues have any thoughts about this
or...
7984
COMMISSIONER CRAM: I am
suggesting a time out.
7985
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Time
out?
7986
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
Yes.
7987
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. Mr. Chairman, maybe
you could give us a time out.
7988
THE CHAIRPERSON: I think we
could give you some, well, a few minutes.
How long will you need to get the file straight
and ‑‑
7989
MR. HUNSPERGER: We have it
right here in front of us.
7990
MR. HUNT: I can file this
page with ‑‑ if you wish ‑‑ right here. The one that I have with the current
numbers that are accurate.
7991
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: These
are the new numbers?
7992
MR. HUNT: Well,
yes.
7993
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. Have you got a copy of
that too?
‑‑‑ Pause
7994
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Yes. Okay. I have got the
source of my information. Thank
you, Mr. Aguiar.
7995
Mr. Aguiar on our staff has given me the source of our ‑‑ my
information which I stupidly didn't source in my own
notes.
7996
But it's your response, undated, but your response to our December 9th,
2005 deficiency letter. And in
there you very clearly set out the figures that I have been referring to ‑‑
34 hours, 7 hours 9 minutes of news ‑‑ the sort of figures I have built my
questions on.
7997
If you have got new figures, I can simply go through them with you right
now and you can answer the questions, or volunteer information should the
questions not be sufficient.
7998
So, I'm just going to close down this file which is no longer
relevant.
7999
And maybe we should just start.
Spoken word, news, weather and sports ‑‑ do they all go together in
your latest numbers?
8000
MR. HUNT: Yes, they
do.
8001
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Could
you let me have those on a weekly basis?
8002
MR. HUNT: 6.6 hours per
week.
8003
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: 6.6
hours. And how does that break
down?
8004
Excuse me for a second, I'm not just not sure whether my colleagues are
with me. Hold
on.
8005
We are going to adjourn for 5 minutes before we do this. We have to have what in the O.J. trial
became known as "a sidebar".
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8006
And ‑‑ but we will be with you. But I think the glove will
fit.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1641 /
Suspension à 1641
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1643 / Reprise
à 1643
8007
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank
you very much for your patience.
Our ‑‑ anyway, there will be ‑‑ if anyone is taken by
surprise ‑‑ our worry is that somebody else, some other party might be
taken by surprise, or feel somehow
disadvantaged.
8008
I don't ‑‑ an assessment on the first number I have heard ‑‑ it
doesn't sound like it's going to be that way. But then there are, there is a Phase IV
where, if someone does feel disadvantaged, they can reply and we can make our
assessment.
8009
We do have your first figures in your letter, in response to our December
9th, 2005 letter and we will get the figures today and then we will see what
happens.
8010
So, if I could return ‑‑ the first number you've given me is 6.6
hours for news, weather and sports per week.
8011
MR. HUNT:
Correct.
8012
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And
can you break that down anymore as to sort of an average Monday to Friday day
and an average weekend day?
8013
MR. HUNT: It breaks down to
10 newscasts per day, Monday to Friday.
I mean we would love to do a lot of weekend news, but it's just not part
of this particular programming plan.
8014
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Yes.
8015
MR. HUNT: So, again, 10 per
day, an average of 8 minutes per, which would include about 5 minutes of news,
60 percent national and 40 percent local,
8016
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Right.
8017
MR. HUNT: Approximately a
minute of weather, 2 minutes of sports, which would make up the 8
minutes.
8018
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. And on
weekends?
8019
MR. HUNT: And on the
weekend, again, as I said, I wish we could include that in this, but we are not
prepared to do the weekend stuff at this time.
8020
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: There
will be none at all.
8021
MR. HUNT:
Right.
8022
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. That answers that
question.
8023
Other spoken word ‑‑ I have it as 27 percent of all programming,
including the news.
8024
Do you have an overall figure now?
Is it 30 ‑‑
8025
MR. HUNT: 31.4 would
be ‑‑
8026
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: 31.4
hours.
8027
MR. HUNT: ‑‑ a total amount of spoken word.
8028
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Instead of 34, okay. So,
it's down a little.
8029
And what ‑‑ let's go through the spoken word.
8030
MR. HUNT:
Sure.
8031
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's
make sure we know exactly what makes up that 31.4 hours ‑‑ 6.6. is news,
obviously.
8032
MR. HUNT: Yes. 15 hours of brokered programming, as we
mentioned before, 8.3 hours of the announcer banter and the local reflection and
our community calendar.
8033
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Sorry, give me that last number ‑‑ 8 ‑‑
8034
MR. HUNT:
8.3.
8035
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Yes.
8036
MR. HUNT: And 1.45 hours
of ‑‑ those would be like comedy and human interest features and what not,
for a total of 31.4.
8037
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So,
you've included the brokered in ‑‑
8038
MR. HUNT:
Correct.
8039
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: ‑‑ the 15 hours of
brokered.
8040
And, of course, as we now know, that number will actually rise, the
brokered number will rise by your 3 to a higher number, about 25 hours or
something like that.
8041
MR. HUNT:
Yes.
8042
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. Now, you mentioned as
well, in your supplementary brief, on page 1, first line of the second
paragraph:
8043
"The format will include gospel music, spoken word programs,
contests."(As read)
8044
Where do they fit in?
8045
MR. HUNT: Into the
8.3.
8046
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Oh,
okay. Then maybe you better give me
a better break‑down of the 8.3, so I have it all. Slowly ‑‑
sorry.
8047
MR. HUNT: It's basically all
of the announcer content that is heard on the radio. I think you
have ‑‑
8048
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: How
about those Oilers?
8049
MR. HUNT: ‑‑ termed it "happy talk", I think. Yes.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8050
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Announcer banter ‑‑ we'll borrow the Chairman's term ‑‑ I like
it. And ‑‑ but that is not a
contest.
8051
MR. HUNT: That is part of
that, you know. That is the ‑‑
the contest would be, you know, them giving away a prize and
then ‑‑
8052
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Oh, I
see ‑‑
8053
MR. HUNT: ‑‑ give it to the listener ‑‑
8054
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: ‑‑ the first one who knows,
so ‑‑
8055
MR. HUNT:
Exactly.
8056
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: ‑‑ who won the soccer tournament, or
something, gets a mug or a T‑shirt.
Oh, okay. So this isn't some
half hour show ‑‑
8057
MR. HUNT:
No.
8058
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: ‑‑ where you give
away ‑‑
8059
MR. HUNT: Not at
all.
8060
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: ‑‑ an oil rig to the lucky
winner.
8061
MR. HUNT: It's just part of
their every‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8062
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. So, it's basically all
of that. It's all announcer ‑‑
it's announcer talk, okay.
8063
MR. HUNT:
Yes.
8064
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Fine.
8065
I'm going to stop here for a minute. Do any of my colleagues have any
questions at all at this point, since we are doing this piece by piece? Are we all clear on spoken word at this
point? Okay.
8066
Now, will all of this spoken word content ‑‑ let's take out the 15
hours of brokered, and I guess we have to take out the 8.3 hours of "banter", if
we are calling it that, announcer talk.
8067
So, we are left with 6.6 hours of news, 1.45 hours of what you call
comedy and human interest. Is all
of that exclusive to Fort McMurray, or might some of that, for example, comedy
and human interest, have been scripted somewhere else?
8068
MR. HUNT: It would be
pre‑packaged syndicated, yes, some of it.
8069
And as I mentioned, we mentioned, in the Grande Prairie one, some of the
comedy stuff is stuff that we produce ourselves.
8070
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Right.
8071
MR. HUNT: Based on the, you
know, we have one particular morning show feature that is about the morning show
people.
8072
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Right.
8073
MR. HUNT: Which could be
something that we would produce for that particular market as
well.
8074
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. But we shouldn't count
on that 1.5 hours as being either produced in Fort McMurray, or produced
exclusively for Fort McMurray.
8075
MR. HUNT:
No.
8076
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That
is correct? Thank
you.
8077
And of the news, keeping in mind the synergies discussion we
had.
8078
MR. HUNT:
Yes.
8079
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Will
any of that news be coming directly out of another newsroom, for instance
Edmonton or Calgary, and simply used again in Fort
McMurray?
8080
MR. HUNT: The national and
international stuff comes from the radio news department
currently.
8081
I mean obviously we have long‑term plans to create our own news service
for our own radio stations, but you know, we are not at that level yet,
so ‑‑ which is why we are using radio news.
8082
But the local aspect of it would come from Fort
McMurray.
8083
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Sure.
8084
MR. HUNT:
Yes.
8085
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So,
we have got a 5 minute newscast.
8086
MR. HUNT:
Yes.
8087
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: How
much of it would come from a central source?
8088
MR. HUNT: Forty per‑‑ oh, 60
percent would be from another source and 40 percent would be
locally.
8089
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Sixty
percent ‑‑ and that would be
your Source Rae ‑‑ R‑a‑e‑d‑i‑o news?
8090
MR. HUNT: Yes. Correct.
8091
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Where
does that ‑‑ we had a discussion about that in
Calgary.
8092
MR. HUNT: We
did.
8093
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And I
apologize, it slipped my mind.
Where is the headquarters of Raedio News?
8094
MR. HUNT: In
Ontario.
8095
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: In
Ontario. Okay. So, 60 percent of your 5 minute
newscast, on average, would come from Raedio news in
Ontario?
8096
MR. HUNT:
Correct.
8097
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And
40 percent from Fort McMurray.
Okay.
8098
McMurray? Is it Fort
McMurray?
8099
COMMISSIONER CRAM: That's
what we're talking about, yes.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8100
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Listen, it has been a long week.
I mean, I ‑‑ okay.
8101
Sure it's McMurray ‑‑ it's not McMichael, McDougall, McJones,
McGillicuddy? All
right.
8102
Now, you are aware then, that when we talk about local programming, the
60 percent wouldn't qualify in the sense that it's not either produced by the
station or exclusively for the station.
You are aware of that as well.
8103
MR. HUNT:
Yes.
8104
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It's
not a huge number, but still it's good that everybody knows the rules. All right.
8105
Is that it? Or is there
anything else? Or do you have plans
for anything else?
8106
MR. HUNT:
No.
8107
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
No. There's not "This Week
in the Oil Patch: ‑‑
8108
MR. HUNT:
8109
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: ‑‑ A half an hour in depth look at
oil". Nothing like
that.
8110
MR. HUNT: Not
initially.
8111
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. Have you reached that
stage in any of your other stations where you are starting to produce kind of,
you know, half hour weekend show on this, or something like that ‑‑ or
that, or the other thing?
8112
MR. HUNT: Not that amount of
time.
8113
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Not
that amount of time yet.
8114
MR. HUNT:
No.
8115
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay.
8116
I think that then just leaves us with the music. And I think your statement was that it
would be pretty much the same as what you proposed in Grande
Prairie.
8117
So I guess the question is what would the differences
be?
8118
MR. HUNT: There really
aren't any differences. I mean it's
essentially the same format.
8119
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. It's the same
format.
8120
MR. HUNT:
Yes.
8121
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But
we are not, you are not in any way suggesting, are you, that it would be somehow
recorded in Grande Prairie and played in
Fort ‑‑
8122
MR. HUNT:
No.
8123
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
No.
8124
MR. HUNT:
No.
8125
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So,
if I listen ‑‑
8126
MR. HUNT: Each of our radio
stations are independent of each other when it comes to their
music.
8127
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. So if I listen to both
of them at the same time, I'm not going to hear the same song at the same moment
of the same hour of the same day.
8128
MR. HUNT: No, you will
not.
8129
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay.
8130
MR. HUNT: If it does happen periodically, that's just
a ‑‑
8131
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Yes.
8132
MR. HUNT: ‑‑ freak of the programming.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8133
So, please don't hold me to that.
It will not be coming from one central source, if that is what you are
asking.
8134
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Sometimes the Chairman and I say the same thing at the same time, like
"How are you?"
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8135
How much overlap do you see with any existing stations in Fort
McMurray?
8136
MR. HUNT: Currently, or the
applicants?
8137
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Any
of them.
8138
MR. HUNT: Well if, for
example, "The King's Kids", which would be the only format that is even
close ‑‑
8139
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Oh,
let's leave them aside. I want to
do them separately.
8140
MR. HUNT:
None.
8141
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But
any of the other ones, are they likely to play any of your type of
music?
8142
MR. HUNT: There may be like
a handful of artists that might overlap.
I could give you some examples, but, you know.
8143
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Give
me one, just for the record.
8144
MR. HUNT: Switchfoot, you
know.
8145
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay.
8146
MR. HUNT: Relient K, they
get some mainstream airplay.
8147
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But
essentially, this ‑‑
8148
MR. HUNT: POD, you
know.
8149
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: This
is a new sound that's coming.
8150
MR. HUNT:
Absolutely.
8151
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: All
right. Now, let's do "The King's
Kids".
8152
MR. HUNT:
Okay.
8153
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What
kind of overlap have we got there, do you think?
8154
MR. HUNT: Basically, we are
going to ‑‑ we are proposing about the same in style of music. We are about 80 percent of the same type
of music that they would play, that we would play.
8155
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Oh,
really.
8156
MR. HUNT: I think the main
difference would be that they have a higher, slightly higher, percentage of
non‑category, sub‑category 35 music, than what we propose.
8157
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Okay. Because when we were
in Calgary ‑‑ I hope you will remember this discussion, because if I'm
beginning to remember discussions we didn't have, that's
worrisome.
8158
We talked about 2 types of sort of Christian music. And the gospel I think you
thought ‑‑ correct me if I'm wrong ‑‑ but would appeal to one audience
and the other type to another.
8159
And I thought perhaps maybe that "The King's Kids" format was a little
bit like the other. I just can't
remember what label you gave it ‑‑ more like the
gospel?
8160
MR. HUNT: No, actually, not
at all. Southern gospel is, like we
had mentioned in Calgary, a completely different format with a completely
different sound. I think we
actually played you a ‑‑
8161
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Right.
8162
MR. HUNT: ‑‑ an example of what we were proposing on the AM station
in Calgary, compared to what we play on our FM stations.
8163
But the 2 that are before you at this particular hearing, are essentially
the same format. About 80 percent
of the music would be the same.
8164
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I
see. See,
Calgary ‑‑
8165
MR. HUNT: I have listened to
CAOS on the internet.
8166
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Oh,
okay, so you ‑‑
8167
MR. HUNT: So I am familiar
with the format.
8168
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Calgary was 10 years ago, you know.
8169
MR. HUNT: I
know.
8170
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And I
don't remember that.
8171
MR. HUNT: That's a long
time.
8172
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I'm
just using your figures.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8173
That was a little mean, wasn't it? I'm just ‑‑ I apologize for
that. But it was kind of fun, from
my perspective.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8174
Okay. So, then here is a
question. I mean, could you
co‑exist with them? It doesn't
sound like you could. But could you
co‑exist with them if we decided to license both?
8175
MR. HUNSPERGER: You know, we
could co‑exist with them. We talked
a little bit about it even after they were before you.
8176
And we are cheering one another on, obviously.
8177
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Sure.
8178
MR. HUNSPERGER: And we
would, if it would be that both would get a license, we could
co‑exist.
8179
We were talking about we would sit down and perhaps our salespeople would
sell both stations instead of one and we would do the best. And we would settle between us what
format we could actually ‑‑ what they would be presenting, what we would be
presenting.
8180
We would probably initially stick with our Shine FM and because they are
low power, they could either go rockier and hit the teenage, which seem to be,
you know what they ‑‑
8181
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It
seems to be where they are headed anyway.
8182
MR. HUNSPERGER: Yeah, where
they are headed.
8183
And that works because Mr. Hunt was in Winnipeg where he had that
scenario between the Winnipeg station and Freak FM. And they were rockier as
well.
8184
So that could work and we could coexist.
8185
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You
could coexist.
Okay.
8186
And I don't think I have to ask you whether you can coexist with the
others because it sounds clear. But
I will ask you anyway, do you have any problems with any of the other
applicants?
8187
MR. HUNSPERGER: None
whatsoever.
8188
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Mr.
Chairman, those are my questions and I thank you.
8189
And it's unfortunate we got a little confused on the numbers, but I think
we have straightened them out.
8190
And we have ended on a nice high note. So thank you very
much.
8191
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Commissioner Cram.
8192
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank
you, Mr. Chair.
8193
Voice tracking ‑‑ how many hours will be live to air per
week?
8194
MR. HUNT: My math correct
this time, it's 40 hours live to air, Ma'am. I should also point out as well that in
our 50 hours of voice tracked that we have proposed for this particular radio
station, we will be using some of those people that will be doing live shifts
for some of our weekend programming.
8195
So there will be, at bare minimum, would be 6 hours that they would voice
track on the weekend, for example, that would be the morning and afternoon drive
people that we talked about hiring at this particular
station.
8196
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Your own
local people.
8197
MR. HUNT:
Correct.
8198
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. Okay. And the other voice‑tracked material
will be centrally developed, but specified for Fort
McMurray.
8199
MR. HUNT:
Correct.
8200
COMMISSIONER CRAM:
Okay. And then I come,
again, to your supplementary brief at page ‑‑ well it's the third page,
it's not paginated it looks like.
8201
And it's the paragraph before Canadian Content and CTD. And you say 80 percent of the total
weekly programming will be locally produced. You don't mean that, do
you?
8202
MR. HUNT: Well, our
understanding of voice tracking and how we do voice tracking is, in our opinion,
locally produced.
8203
That is why we put 80 percent there, is because that is ‑‑ when we
put this together, that is what we felt to be locally produced because each of
those voice tracks and those music logs that are in there are coming out of the
Fort McMurray studios. They may be
voiced in a ‑‑
8204
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay, so
you have got ‑‑
8205
MR. HUNT: ‑‑ microphone outside of the building, but they are
coming through the studio themselves.
8206
They are inputted into the computers that are going to be set up in Fort
McMurray and they will be generated through our systems in Fort McMurray. That is...
8207
MR. HUNSPERGER: May I also
add ‑‑
8208
COMMISSIONER CRAM: The voice
tracking that is done in Edmonton for Fort McMurray you say is locally
produced.
8209
MR. HUNT: Because it may be
recorded there, but it is transported and put into the Fort McMurray studios and
it is for that particular radio station.
8210
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Who
produces that voice tracking?
8211
MR. HUNT: The ‑‑ for
example, Holly might record those voice tracks in Edmonton, physically. And then they get transported ‑‑
and we won't go through exactly how they get
transported.
8212
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes, I
don't care.
8213
MR. HUNT: Because there is a
variety of ways of doing it.
8214
And then the local people, for example, the afternoon drive person, I
think in our ‑‑
8215
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Will air
it.
8216
MR. HUNT: ‑‑ we mentioned is a part producer, part production
person, would input those tracks so that they run according to the logs that we
have put in place for that particular radio station.
8217
COMMISSIONER CRAM: If I
defined locally produced as being produced in the locality of the radio station,
how much would that percentage be?
8218
MR. HUNT: Well it would be
46 hours, then. So I would have
to ‑‑ and you know my math it's not great.
8219
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes, I
know your math.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8220
MR. HUNT: My
apologies.
8221
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes,
we're both...
8222
Now, you are really going to love this one. On your brokered programming, I looked
at ‑‑ that's $156,000 in year one, isn't
it?
8223
So I then divided by 15 hours and divided by 50 weeks and I have
got ‑‑ is it $200 an hour you get for the brokered programming? Is that what it is based
on?
8224
MS GILLESPIE:
Correct.
8225
COMMISSIONER CRAM:
Okay. And based on a 5 share
in a population of 60,000 people, that means somebody is paying $200 an hour to
reach 3,000 people?
8226
MS GILLESPIE: 200 ‑‑
yes, correct.
8227
COMMISSIONER CRAM:
And ‑‑ okay, and then so the price per hour will go up ‑‑ did
you factor in an inflationary rate of 5 percent every
year?
8228
MS GILLESPIE: Just after the
third year.
8229
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Just
after ‑‑
8230
MS GILLESPIE: Once we hit
maximum.
8231
COMMISSIONER CRAM:
Okay. Yes. And they actually
will pay $200 an hour for reaching only 3,000 people.
8232
MS GILLESPIE: Some more,
some less, but that is the average, yes.
8233
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. Yes.
8234
MR. HUNSPERGER: Most of them
are only half hour programs, so ‑‑ but it boils down to 100 hours, or
whatever, but yes.
8235
COMMISSIONER CRAM:
Yes.
8236
MR. HUNSPERGER: And that
rate will go up because they are paying higher than that in Edmonton and
Calgary.
8237
COMMISSIONER CRAM:
Yes.
8238
Now, it's your position that in ‑‑ oh, my goodness ‑‑ it's in
the Deficiencies, and it has Reapplication 2005, 1103‑1, by Touch Canada. You say:
8239
"There will not be a specific amount of time devoted to religious
programming... commercially funded...and will be given to any parties wishing to
purchase time segments whether they are of a religious content or not."(As
read)
8240
Have you ever heard of, like what kind of brokered programming is there
that isn't Christian programming, do you know of it?
8241
MR. MOFFAT: We have a
current program running in Edmonton called Diabetes Compass and it's produced
locally by a woman that has a magazine.
And she has most recently connected with Capital Health here in Edmonton,
and that show will be turning into a one hour program and it airs each Saturday
at 9 a.m.
8242
COMMISSIONER CRAM: And it's
about diabetes.
8243
MR. MOFFAT: It's completely
about diabetes and it's produced in our studios.
8244
COMMISSIONER CRAM: And how
much did she pay you? Well you
don't have to ‑‑ I mean, is it around the same price
as ‑‑
8245
MR. MOFFAT: It's a little
more, not a lot more, but it's on market rate.
8246
COMMISSIONER CRAM:
Okay. Any other stuff you
know of?
8247
MR. MOFFAT: We have a
psychologist who has been airing a show for the last 90 days. And she's shutting down for the summer
because she's taking the summer off.
But she buys 30 minute blocks of time as well.
8248
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. Once a week
or ‑‑
8249
MR. MOFFAT: Pardon
me?
8250
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Once a
week?
8251
MR. MOFFAT: Yes, once a
week.
8252
COMMISSIONER CRAM:
Yes.
8253
MR. MOFFAT: And we also air
on our AM stations. We have ‑‑
just to show you we have experience in dealing with local brokered
programming ‑‑ a 15 minute segment called "Ask The Experts", which is a
live interview show done with the morning show host on Friday
mornings.
8254
COMMISSIONER CRAM:
Okay. So diabetes is an
informational program, is that the idea?
8255
MR. MOFFAT: Basic format for
the show is she brings in a special guest ‑‑ a doctor, an expert,
podiatrist ‑‑ and talks about issues, you know, for people who suffer from
diabetes, talks about resources available in the community to help people with
diabetes. It's ‑‑ she came to
us with the idea ‑‑
8256
COMMISSIONER CRAM:
Yes.
8257
MR. MOFFAT: ‑‑ and said I really want to do this show. And I want to do it on your radio
station.
8258
And so we have worked with her and it has grown into something we
have ‑‑ she has presented a 3 year contract to continue in September with a
one‑hour program along with Capital Health's support.
8259
COMMISSIONER CRAM: And the
psychiatrist, is it just information that kind of thing?
8260
MR. MOFFAT: Again, it's an
interview‑style format. She'll
bring in a guest or 2, talk about a specific issue, and they will spend 30
minutes talking about the issue as an informational
piece.
8261
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. And then "Ask The Expert" ‑‑ how do
I fix my plugged toilet? Or
what ‑‑
8262
MR. MOFFAT: Most recently it
has been financial planners who have been jumping on the bandwagon with
us.
8263
COMMISSIONER CRAM:
Yes.
8264
MR. MOFFAT: It's a hot
category in our sales department.
8265
And primarily they will come in and they will talk about, you know, basic
financial planning processes and pitch some of their products that they will get
co‑op from.
8266
For example Templeton Funds might help pay, offset some of the bills, and
they will talk about Templeton Funds at that specific, for that specific
show.
8267
COMMISSIONER CRAM: You are
getting really close to advertising, aren't you?
8268
MR. MOFFAT: The "Ask The
Experts" program is more of an advertising feature.
8269
The "Diabetes Compass", the other programming, is definitely not
advertising.
8270
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. What is your limit on advertising per
hour?
8271
MR. MOFFAT: We have, on this
application, 10 minutes for an FM station.
The "Ask The Experts" program example I gave you is for our AM station in
Edmonton.
8272
COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. And what is the limit
there?
8273
MR. MOFFAT: A little higher,
I believe.
8274
COMMISSIONER CRAM: 12, it
should be 12.
8275
MR. HUNSPERGER: I can tell
you this much, we haven't reached it yet.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8276
COMMISSIONER CRAM: I wonder,
in Fort McMurray you have a live morning person and a live afternoon person, and
a half person. Who gathers the
news?
8277
MR. MOFFAT: The part‑time
co‑host, the half‑person, I guess we can say, would be in charge of gathering
the local stuff.
8278
And also the, I mean the thing is our people, we wear a lot of hats. So we don't necessarily have any
specific people that are devoted just to news.
8279
So, you know, the afternoon person will likely do some of that news
gathering as well.
8280
COMMISSIONER CRAM:
Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr.
Chair.
8281
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr.
Langford.
8282
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I
just want to clear one thing up, Mr. Hunt, with you, the
voice ‑‑
8283
COMMISSIONER CRAM:
Tracking.
8284
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: ‑‑ tracking.
8285
And telecom said it's "voice‑casting". And if someone hadn't tried to clear it
up with me, I would have been fine, but now I'm totally
confused.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8286
So the voice tracking that you record in Edmonton ‑‑ would record,
plan to record for Fort McMurray ‑‑ that would be exclusively for Fort
McMurray, would it?
8287
MR. HUNT:
Correct.
8288
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It
would be used nowhere else.
8289
MR. HUNT: Nowhere else. That specific voice
track ‑‑
8290
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Right.
8291
MR. HUNT: ‑‑ would be for that particular break on that particular
radio station.
8292
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Right. So it is my
understanding that that would qualify as local programming as long as it is
exclusive.
8293
MR. HUNT: That was our
understanding as well.
8294
COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
Good. I think we are all
agreed.
8295
Thank you very much. That is
my question, Mr. Chair.
8296
THE CHAIRPERSON: I am taking
the example of your "Capital Diabetes" ‑‑ do you sell advertising in that
hour?
8297
MR. MOFFAT: No, sir, we do
not.
8298
THE CHAIRPERSON: You do
not. Do you sell advertising in
some, in the brokered program that you are currently running, say in Edmonton or
Calgary or the ones you are planning to have in
the ‑‑
8299
MR. MOFFAT: No sir, we
don't.
8300
THE CHAIRPERSON: No. So they are totally out of
it.
8301
Mr. Hunt, on page 9 ‑‑ I think we all love that page
9.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8302
But I'm going at the very top of the page.9 where you
say:
8303
"Our stations continue to exceed the regulatory requirement for Canadian
content."(As read)
8304
By how much?
8305
MR. HUNT: As we pointed out
in our Grande Prairie Application, we have, you know, just in the last week,
exceeded by 7, almost 7 percent I think on one of our stations, and I think
6.3. I don't have those,
that ‑‑
8306
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Exactly, 6.9 and 6.3,
yes.
8307
MR. HUNT:
Yes.
8308
THE CHAIRPERSON: So
generally speaking you are averaging over 15.
8309
MR. HUNT:
Absolutely.
8310
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you. Those were my
questions.
8311
I don't know ‑‑ and legal counsel? Yes.
8312
MS MURPHY: One
clarification, in respect to your CTD contributions ‑‑ you have indicated
that you would make annual contributions of $8,000 for a total of $56,000 over
the license term.
8313
Just for the record, considering that most undertakings do not implement
within the first year of their licensed terms, please comment on the imposition
of a condition of license directing you to make your $56,000 contribution over 7
consecutive years rather than over the license term.
8314
MR. HUNT: Yes, it would be
over the 7 years.
8315
MS MURPHY: Great. And to follow up on your discussion on
local programming with Commissioner Cram and Commissioner Langford, you have
indicated that 80 percent of your total weekly programming would be locally
produced.
8316
Given the definition of local programming where it can either be
programming produced by the station, or programming produced exclusively for the
station, what proportion of that 80 percent fits in either
category?
8317
In other words, what proportion is live and what proportion is
voice‑tracked?
8318
This is for the record, just to clarify the discussion that you have had
previously.
8319
MR. HUNT: It would be 40
hours of live and 50 hours of voice‑tracked, so...
8320
MS MURPHY: And the 90 hours,
of course, make up 80 percent of your weekly programming.
8321
MR. HUNT:
Correct.
8322
MS MURPHY: Thank you very
much. Those are my
questions.
8323
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank
you.
8324
Mr. Hunsperger, here is the last opportunity for you to tell us why we
should grant you the license for Fort Mc Murray.
8325
MR. HUNSPERGER: As I
mentioned in our opening statements, I have a friend who grew up in a farm
beside me when I was a kid. And we
have known each other all our lives.
8326
He and his wife and family have lived there for 30 years. Their children have grown up in Fort
McMurray, and now their grandchildren are growing up in Fort
McMurray.
8327
He is only typical of the many families that have asked us over the
period of years, when are we going to bring our gospel format to Fort
McMurray.
8328
When the CRTC gave the call, we felt that this was our opportunity. And so as you can see, we have made the
application.
8329
We are confident that we can fulfil what we are promising here to you as
a Commission.
8330
We are very thankful for the opportunity to be able to go into Fort
McMurray and we know that families right now are really wanting us to bring this
kind of radio to them.
8331
We also believe that our niche application is in keeping with the spirit
of the Broadcasting Act that stipulates the system should be diverse, balanced
and representative of all Canadians.
8332
And we are just thankful for having this opportunity. And we thank you, for every time that we
come out of these hearings we always grow a little more and you stretch us and
make us better and we appreciate that.
8333
Thank you for your time.
8334
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Hunsperger; thank you to your team.
8335
This concludes the first Phase of the Fort McMurray portion of this
hearing. We will now go immediately
to Phase II.
8336
Miss Secretary will obviously allow the people to move. But I will let you introduce the Phase
II.
8337
THE SECRETARY: Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
8338
This Phase II is a phase where the applicants will appear in the same
order to intervene on competing applications if they
wish.
8339
Several applicants have informed me that they will not appear in Phase
II. However, given the information
on spoken word programming provided by the applicant Touch Canada Broadcasting
in response to the panel's questions, I will call each applicant in the event
that they may now wish to intervene during this phase.
8340
I would now call as the first applicant, numbered company 1182743 Alberta
Limited if they wish to come forward.
If not, then I will go on to the next applicant.
‑‑‑ No response / Aucune
réponse
8341
Then I would ask Standard Radio Inc. if they would like to come
forward.
‑‑‑ No response / Aucune
réponse
8342
Vista Radio Limited.
‑‑‑ No response / Aucune
réponse
8343
Golden West Broadcasting Limited.
‑‑‑ No response / Aucune
réponse
8344
Harvard Broadcasting Inc.
‑‑‑ No response / Aucune
réponse
8345
King's Kids Promotions Outreach Ministries.
‑‑‑ No response / Aucune
réponse
8346
Newcap Inc.
‑‑‑ No response / Aucune
réponse
8347
Radio CJVR Limited.
‑‑‑ No response / Aucune
réponse
8348
And finally, Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc.
8349
This then concludes Phase II of this process.
8350
THE CHAIRPERSON: We will
move to Phase III.
8351
THE SECRETARY: Yes, Mr.
Chair. We have one appearing
intervener for Phase III of this process.
8352
And I would invite the Aboriginal People's Television Network, Mr. Jean
LaRose to come forward to present his intervention. .
8353
THE CHAIRPERSON: Les seuls
mots en français de l'audience:
Bonjour ‑‑ Bon fin d'après‑midi.
8354
When you are ready, Mr. LaRose.
INTERVENTION
8355
MR. LaROSE: Merci beaucoup,
monsieur Arpin.
Bonjour.
8356
Good afternoon Vice‑Chair Arpin, Commissioners and Commission
staff.
8357
My name is Jean LaRose and I am the Chief Executive Officer of the
Aboriginal People's Television Network.
8358
As you know, APTN is a one‑of‑a‑kind television service that provides
access to, by and for Aboriginal peoples to a television network that is unique
in the world.
8359
APTN is the reflection of all Aboriginal peoples in Canada which include
the First Nations, the Inuit, and the Métis peoples.
8360
We provide a perspective that is the true mirror of our peoples, both to
ourselves and to all Canadians.
8361
I am here today to discuss my support for Harvard Broadcasting Inc. and
their proposal to operate an FM station in Fort McMurray.
8362
According to the census conducted by the Regional Municipality of Wood
Buffalo in 2005, 10.3 percent of women and 8.7 percent of men living in Fort
McMurray indicated that they were of Aboriginal heritage.
8363
Outside of the city this number grows to 47.3 percent of women and 47.4
percent of men.
8364
This is a substantial proportion and represents the increasing reality of
the role and presence of Aboriginal peoples in the Prairie provinces, a presence
that is only going to increase as our population has a birth rate that is 3 to 4
times the Canadian average.
8365
As a result, Fort McMurray is a market rich with Aboriginal culture and
heritage.
8366
The Athabasca Tribal Council represents the interests of the First
Nations located in northeastern Alberta, of which there are 5 established
bands: the Chipewyan Prairie First
Nation, Mikisew Cree First Nation, Athabasca First Nation, Fort McKay First
Nation and Fort McMurray First Nation.
8367
Given the significant population and the important contribution by
Aboriginal peoples to both the historic and future development of the Wood
Buffalo area, it is critical to ensure that any new broadcaster in the market,
demonstrates both a willingness to work with the First Nations and a sensitivity
to the issues facing our people and our community.
8368
This means being a reflection of that community in a way that can only be
achieved by demonstrating a willingness to give a voice and a presence to our
community in the media that reaches out to all of the population in that
area.
8369
It is in this regard that we ask the Commission to give special
consideration to the proposal put forward by Harvard Broadcasting
Inc.
8370
Our relationship with Harvard began in 2004 when we came to an
understanding on what the needs of the Aboriginal Broadcast Community were, and
what a meaningful contribution to the Canadian talent development within the
Aboriginal population would look like.
8371
In the application forwarded by Harvard in Calgary, the first APTN
Harvard Mentorship Program was introduced.
The simple objective was to provide training for Aboriginal individuals
in the area of news gathering.
8372
The plan will provide training for one Aboriginal person each year and
will result in one hire, at the very minimum, of a graduate across the Harvard
Broadcasting stations over the term of the license.
8373
APTN will also benefit directly from having access to story gathered at
the market level, which in the cases of both Calgary and Fort McMurray, will
represent an expansion of the areas from which we
report.
8374
The critical aspect of a mentorship program is the very real and very
important first‑hand experience this opportunity will represent to an aspiring
Aboriginal reporter.
8375
Rather than simply learning by watching, the program Harvard Broadcasting
has designed for this candidate involves all aspects of news gathering and will
result in their stories being aired on the stations.
8376
The selected candidate will also be given the opportunity to develop
features that will air throughout the broadcast day and night. These features will celebrate Aboriginal
languages, cultures, and history and will entertain listeners while at the same
time providing a context to the history of the area that reflects the real and
lasting contribution of peoples to this area.
8377
The combined training and news gathering and reporting as well as feature
production, will provide invaluable practical experience and I believe will give
these Aboriginal news gatherers an opportunity to establish strong credibility
and credentials in the job market.
8378
Why Harvard? Three reasons,
actually. First, the mentorship
program was in fact their idea and it was their initiative that led to our
talks.
8379
Secondly, they have a track record of developing Aboriginal staff. I think a testimony to this commitment
is evident in their selection of senior staff for the proposed NICS
103.7.
8380
William Alexander first started with Harvard Broadcasting and although he
left to pursue bigger opportunities, the training he received enabled him to
move up and importantly he is prepared to return at a senior
level.
8381
This willingness to train Aboriginal talent at all levels of their
development and to provide opportunities at the management level sets Harvard,
as a radio broadcaster, apart in my mind.
8382
Finally, Harvard Broadcasting has committed to being one of the first
broadcasters to allocate funding to the Aboriginal Media Education Fund, AMEF in
short.
8383
The fund was launched this winter and while managed independently from
APTN, is certainly an initiative that the network was instrumental in
establishing and will be very active in promoting.
8384
The AMEF is designed to develop Aboriginal talent at all levels of
broadcasting: scriptwriting,
production, broadcasting, reporting, etc.
8385
The fund will allow Aboriginal individuals to access an industry that
was, until a few years ago, mainly closed to them.
8386
The fund will assist in 3 specific and separate ways. It will provide entry level assistance
to our youth who wish to enter the field of media in the areas of broadcasting,
journalism, filmmaking and others.
8387
It will, in a second manner, provide assistance to established media
individuals and give them the opportunity to obtain funding to increase their
skills by allowing them to access further professional development, to hone
their skills and move to the next level they wish to
attain.
8388
Finally, it will allow those producers who have become established and
have productions to their credit, to take their productions at the international
level and present them in major industry events.
8389
We expect, over the next 10 years, to definitely and irrevocably entrench
the Aboriginal production industry as a pillar of the Canadian production
sector.
8390
The fund will be administered through scholarship and bursary
endowments.
8391
We are hoping to raise $10,000,000 to ensure that we can meet the needs
of our communities. And Harvard's
commitment to supporting this fund is just another demonstration of their
sincere interest in furthering the opportunities for Aboriginal
peoples.
8392
We think this type of investment is critically necessary to ensure that
all Aboriginal peoples in Canada are reflected in our broadcasting system and in
the success stories we share.
8393
I strongly encourage the Commission to consider the Harvard Broadcasting
Application, not only in light of what it can provide to the city of Fort
McMurray, but also in what it represents in terms of partnership with Aboriginal
peoples, their communities and their greater presence and contribution to the
development of the Canadian community.
8394
Thank you for your time. And
I am more than happy to answer any questions you may have on
this.
8395
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. LaRose.
8396
I will start the question with the ‑‑ we will talk about the
foundation in the second stage.
8397
But in the first stage, the program that Harvard wants to put forth to
allow a First Nations member to get training in the station, now, you are saying
that this person will ‑‑ those who will go through the program will ‑‑
acquire, obviously, experience with Harvard in the radio side of the
business.
8398
But you are also suggesting, or I'm reading throughout, that it also will
be your contact and your ‑‑ the voice of APTN in the area where Harvard is
located.
8399
How will it ‑‑ now since that you are in television and they are in
radio ‑‑ how will that function?
8400
Mr. LaROSE: Well, the way we
have approached it is that, as a mentorship program, developing talent in news
reporting, whether it be radio or television, requires the basic, same basic
skill sets.
8401
While there is a difference in developing a television persona, the news
gathering elements, the news reporting, the fact gathering, all of those
elements are similar.
8402
And what we are hoping to be able to manage through this process
is ‑‑ as you are aware, the Commission in its decision regarding APTN last
fall, recognized the need for us to open more news
bureaus.
8403
And we are now opening, and I'm happy to report that we are opening our
bureau in Edmonton here on August 1st.
8404
What it will allow will be for us to have also down the road, a voice in
Fort McMurray and hopefully Calgary also, where through our news reporter here
we can have a voice report on which we can put some visuals for the television
medium, but also help train an individual outside of APTN's
format.
8405
We do not have the resources to provide all the training and the
mentoring that is necessary to create a workforce within the
network.
8406
And we are hoping to use this mentorship and partnership to create the
basic strong news‑gathering skills that we can then also take those individuals
to the next level and either provide them the training to become a video
journalist or a reporter for the television network, but also give them
opportunities to move to other radio stations which often open in our smaller
communities where they may have a small radio, community radio network, and give
them the opportunity to develop the skills to do that.
8407
THE CHAIRPERSON: Now,
currently Harvard operates in radio stations in Regina. Have they initiated such a program in
Regina?
8408
MR. LaROSE: Well, there is
a ‑‑ there will be exchanges between Regina and Fort McMurray and Calgary
for some of the news content for some of the productions that will be made out
of Fort McMurray. There would be
exchanges in that area.
8409
They first approached us for the Calgary project, but we are discussing
the opportunity of expanding this to some of their other properties as
well.
8410
THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, if I'm
looking into now the foundation ‑‑ and you are talking about a $10,000,000
endowment.
8411
At this time, how much money have you already collected for the
endowment?
8412
MR. LaROSE: Well, the fund
is a new initiative. Some of you
may recall when we met in November at the CAB during the tour of our studio, I
had made reference to the fact that we were working with CRA and Industry Canada
to create a fund, a charitable organization that would promote Aboriginal
training.
8413
This came through finally over the winter.
8414
APTN is the first entity to provide funding. We have put $200,000 of seed money into
the fund to launch it.
8415
We first used the fund to provide some training for young Aboriginal
people in the NSI Screenwriter's Program that was held just last month, in
fact.
8416
So, already we have put money into it and are starting to find other
avenues.
8417
We will also be trying to attract the interest of other broadcasters,
certainly through initiatives such as SABAR which is the Association of
Broadcasters to increase Aboriginal Representation in the media in Canada, and
approaching other broadcasters as well to support this
initiative.
8418
Some of them are doing it indirectly, like CTV this summer is providing
13 internship opportunities for Aboriginal youth within the network. CHUM, as you know, has
been a very strong supporter.
8419
So what we are looking to do is to expand this into the field of radio as
well because media is a broad range of initiatives that encompass both
television and radio.
8420
And we are looking to offer as many opportunities to our youth ‑‑
and not so young, sometimes ‑‑ but certainly to our peoples in the field of
media.
8421
THE CHAIRPERSON: And who
will recruit the ‑‑ I'm coming back to the first program ‑‑ who will
make the initial recruitment of the Aboriginals that Harvard will be taking on
its payroll and train them?
8422
MR. LaROSE: It is our
agreement that APTN would be the one to select the individuals and propose them
to Harvard. And they are agreeable
with that approach.
8423
THE CHAIRPERSON: Those are
my questions.
8424
Thank you very much, Mr. LaRose.
8425
MR. LaROSE: Thank you. Merci beaucoup.
8426
THE CHAIRPERSON: This
concludes the Phase III of this hearing.
8427
So we will move immediately to Phase IV.
8428
THE SECRETARY: Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
8429
Phase IV is in which applicants can reply to all interventions that are
submitted on their application
The applicants will appear in
reverse order.
8430
I would now ask Touch Canada Broadcasting to come forward for their
reply.
REPLY /
RÉPLIQUE
8431
MR. HUNSPERGER: Mr.
Chairman, Commissioners, Commission staff, I want to thank all those that sent
e‑mails and letters in support of our application.
8432
I particularly want to say thank you to Mrs. Parker who is a Grade 5‑6
teacher in Fort McMurray Christian School.
And she had all of her students handwrite ‑‑ I don't know if some of
you saw them ‑‑ but handwrite letters asking for license for Touch
Canada.
8433
And so I want to also thank all the students and maybe we've got some
broadcasters out of that Grade 5, Grade 6 class.
8434
Thank you too for the Commission for being here and Commission staff,
thank you so much.
8435
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Hunsperger.
8436
THE SECRETARY: I would now
call on Radio CJVR Limited to come forward.
8437
And if you could also introduce yourself for the record, I would
appreciate it. Thank
you.
REPLY /
RÉPLIQUE
8438
MR. SINGER: Good afternoon
again. I'm Ken Singer,
Vice‑President, General Manager, Radio CJVR Limited.
8439
Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, Commission staff, we wish to thank you for
your courtesies this week and fairness throughout these proceedings. We have enjoyed our week here in
Edmonton.
8440
We also wish to acknowledge the considerable number of individuals in
organizations who took the time to send their letters of support for our
application.
8441
We wish the Commission good luck with your deliberations and safe trip
home. Thank
you.
8442
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
very much, Mr. Singer.
8443
Miss Secretary.
8444
THE SECRETARY: I would now
call on Newcap Inc. to come forward.
REPLY /
RÉPLIQUE
8445
MR. MAYHEW: Thank you, Madam
Secretary. Mark Mayhew, Chief
Operating Officer, Newcap Radio.
8446
Very briefly, to confirm with the Commission that we have, as requested,
filed our research for the Fort McMurray marketplace with the
Secretary.
8447
And very briefly, just wanted to take this opportunity on the record to
thank those who on the record and off the record sent their support for our
application for a new radio station in Fort McMurray.
8448
I wanted to thank the Commission for a very fair hearing. And a special thank you to the staff who
don't get to get up as often as all of us do throughout the hearing and have
done a very good job.
8449
It's kind of a lonely job at times, but our experience in the examination
room and the interaction with the staff has been very good and on behalf of
Newcap, we thank you for that.
8450
So thank you for a great opportunity.
8451
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Mayhew.
8452
THE SECRETARY: I would now
call on King's Kids Promotion Outreach Ministries to present their
reply.
REPLY /
RÉPLIQUE
8453
MR. CHRISNER: Thank you,
Madam Secretary, Mr. Chairman, Commission staff. I appreciate all your
help.
8454
This is our first experience here and we expected maybe somewhat a more
intimidating time, but in fact it was quite enjoyable.
8455
We have learned very much from yourselves as well as the other
broadcasters. It's been a delight
to be here and learn.
8456
And we would also like to go on record as to thanking the over 260
positive interveners on behalf of our application, the steering committee and
the staff, some of which could not be with us on these 2
days.
8457
But we would just like to thank you very much and wish you all the best
in your deliberation and delivery of the licenses.
8458
Thanks again.
8459
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Chrisner.
8460
Miss Secretary.
8461
THE SECRETARY: Thank
you. I would not call on Harvard
Broadcasting Inc.
REPLY /
RÉPLIQUE
8462
MR. COWEY: Thank you Mr.
Chairman, members of the Commission.
8463
This has been a great hearing.
It's the most efficient one I have ever attended. My compliments to the Chair for moving
it along ‑‑ a very busy schedule.
8464
My compliments to the other applicants who presented themselves and their
programs very well.
8465
A terrific staff ‑‑ again thank you for your help and attention
during this process.
8466
I really want to thank our interveners from Fort McMurray and our
advisory group who have come together to help us along should we be successful
here.
8467
And a real big thank you to Jean LaRose for taking the time to come and
extend the discussion we have had with you with respect to the mentoring of
young Aboriginal reporters.
8468
And thank you for the levity of the day. It made it a very pleasant time to be
here.
8469
Thank you very much.
8470
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Cowey.
8471
Miss Secretary.
8472
THE SECRETARY: I would now
call on Golden West Broadcasting Limited to come forward.
‑‑‑ No response / Aucune
réponse
8473
Vista Radio Limited.
8474
And again, reminding you, if you could introduce yourself for the record
for the transcript. Thank
you.
REPLY /
RÉPLIQUE
8475
MS MICALLEF: Thank you. Margot Micallef, Chair and CEO of Vista
Broadcast Group.
8476
I just really would like to thank the Commission, the Commission staff in
particular, and all of the participants for helping us through this
process.
8477
This is only our third time before the Commission and every time we learn
a little bit more.
8478
So thank you all very much.
We look forward to the next time we are before you and good luck with
your deliberations.
8479
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Miss Micallef.
8480
Miss Secretary.
8481
THE SECRETARY: I now call on
Standard Radio Inc. to come forward.
‑‑‑ No response / Aucune
réponse
8482
And the last applicant, numbered company 1182743 Alberta
Limited.
8483
If you could also introduce yourself before the
record.
REPLY /
RÉPLIQUE
8484
MR. LARSON: Good afternoon,
Paul Larson, President 1182743 Alberta Limited.
8485
I would just like to, on the record, thank those who intervened with
positive written interventions for our application.
8486
Thank you Mr. Chair and Commissioners for your time this week and to the
CRTC staff as well ‑‑ a safe journey home. Thank you.
8487
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Larson.
8488
This ends the oral portion of the hearing and I know that the Secretary
wants to have the last word.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8489
THE SECRETARY: Second last
word, Mr. Chair.
8490
I would just like to indicate for the record, that there are a number of
non‑appearing applications on this agenda.
At this public hearing interventions were received on some of the
applications.
8491
The panel will consider these interventions along with the applications
and decisions will be rendered at a later date.
8492
And this completes the agenda of this public
hearing.
8493
And back to you, Mr. Chair.
8494
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
very much to everybody.
8495
I think it was ‑‑ you came all very well prepared. We learned a lot about your projects and
we will have now a long deliberation because you have very interesting projects
and you raise very interesting issues.
8496
So we have a good summer before us.
The summer is well‑cut for us.
8497
So thank you and all of you also have a safe
return.
‑‑‑ Whereupon the hearing concluded
at 1740 /
L'audience est terminée à
1740
REPORTERS
______________________
______________________
Richard Johansson
Lynda Johansson
______________________
______________________
Jean Desaulniers
Jennifer Cheslock