TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
             FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND
                 TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

                TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU
                 CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
             ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES


                       SUBJECT / SUJET:

           RECONSIDERATION OF DECISION CRTC 2001-757
             RÉÉXAMEN DE LA DECISION CRTC 2001-757


HELD AT:                               TENUE À:

Conference Centre                      Centre de Conférences
Portage IV                             Portage IV
Outaouais Room                         Salle Outaouais
Gatineau, Quebec                       Gatineau (Québec)

May 9, 2002                            Le 9 mai 2002

                           Volume 1

						  

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.

						  

                 Canadian Radio-television and
                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
                télécommunications canadiennes


                  Transcript / Transcription


           RECONSIDERATION OF DECISION CRTC 2001-757
             RÉÉXAMEN DE LA DECISION CRTC 2001-757


BEFORE / DEVANT:

Charles Dalfen                     Chairperson / Président
Joan Pennefather                   Commissioner / Conseillère
David McKendry                     Commissioner / Conseiller


ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

William Howard                     Legal Counsel /
                                   Conseiller juridique
Jane Britten                       Hearing Coordinator /
                                   Coordonnatrice de 
                                   l'audience
Pierre LeBel                       Secretary / Secrétaire


HELD AT:                           TENUE À:

Conference Centre                  Centre de Conférences
Portage IV                         Portage IV
Outaouais Room                     Salle Outaouais
Gatineau, Quebec                   Gatineau (Québec)

May 9, 2002                        Le 9 mai 2002

                           Volume 1
						   

						  
  
             TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES

                                                   PAGE / PARA

PHASE I

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR

World Television Network/Le Réseau Télémonde Inc.        5 /26

						  
1
  1                         Gatineau, Quebec / Gatineau (Québec)
  2       --- Upon commencing on Thursday, May 9, 2002 at 1705 /
  3           L'audience débute le jeudi 9 mai 2002 à 1705
  4  1                    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good afternoon,
  5       ladies and gentlemen.
  6  2                    My name is Charles Dalfen and I am
  7       the Chairman of the CRTC.
  8  3                    With me are my colleagues,
  9       Commissioners Joan Pennefather and David McKendry. 
 10       Commission staff assisting us at this hearing are the
 11       Coordinator, Jane Britten, Legal Counsel, William
 12       Howard and Hearing Secretary, Pierre LeBel.
 13  4                    On December 14th, 2001, the
 14       Commission rendered Decision CRTC 2001-757, in which it
 15       authorized World Television Network/Le Réseau
 16       Télémonde, otherwise known as WTM, to operate a
 17       Category 2 national specialty television service for
 18       digital distribution.
 19  5                    La décision a également refusé la
 20       demande de la requérante visant une distribution
 21       analogique par câble garantie.
 22  6                    Le 13 mars 2002, la gouverneure en
 23       conseil, conformément à l'article 28(3) de la Loi sur
 24       la radiodiffusion, a renvoyé la décision au Conseil
 25       pour réexamen et nouvelle audience.

2
  1  7                    The Order-in-Council, P.C. 2002-330,
  2       stated that:
  3                              "It is material to the
  4                              reconsideration and hearing that
  5                              the Commission fully assess the
  6                              appropriate options for the
  7                              carriage of Broadcasting
  8                              Distribution Undertakings of
  9                              services that aspire to reflect
 10                              and connect Canada's
 11                              multicultural communities to
 12                              broader audiences".
 13  8                    On March 26th, 2002, the Commission
 14       invited the applicant to submit any comment or
 15       amendment it wished to make to its original
 16       application. The applicant did so on April 8th, 2002.
 17  9                    Pursuant to section 28, paragraph 3
 18       of the Broadcasting Act, where a decision is referred
 19       back to the CRTC, the Commission must reconsider the
 20       matter and, after a hearing, may choose among a number
 21       of alternatives, including rescinding the decision, or
 22       confirming the decision, either with or without change,
 23       variation or alteration.
 24  10                   This hearing should last about a day
 25       and a half.  Cellphones and beepers must be turned off

3
  1       when you are in the hearing room as they are an
  2       unwelcome distraction for participants and
  3       Commissioners.
  4  11                   And now, before we begin, I will turn
  5       things over to the Secretary, Mr. Pierre LeBel, to
  6       explain the process we will be following.
  7  12                   Monsieur LeBel?
  8  13                   MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
  9  14                   Before we begin, just a few
 10       housekeeping matters.
 11  15                   First, I would like to indicate that
 12       the Commission's examination room is located in the
 13       Papineau Room, adjacent to the hearing room.  The
 14       public files of the application being considered at
 15       this hearing can be examined there.
 16  16                   Secondly, there is a verbatim
 17       transcript of this hearing being taken by the court
 18       reporter at the table to my left at the centre.  If you
 19       have any questions about how to obtain all or parts of
 20       this transcript, please approach the court reporter
 21       during a break for information.
 22  17                   Finally, if you want to have messages
 23       taken, we will be happy to post them outside the public
 24       examination room.  The phone number in our public
 25       examination room is (819) 593-3168.  If you have any

4
  1       further questions, don't hesitate to contact me or the
  2       examination room officer and we will be more than
  3       pleased to assist where we can.
  4  18                   And now, Mr. Chairman, we will
  5       proceed with the item on the agenda which is an
  6       application by World Television Network/Le Réseau
  7       Télémonde Inc. for a licence to carry on national
  8       specialty television services dedicated to providing
  9       news, public affairs, film and entertainment
 10       programming from around the world.
 11  19                   We will proceed as follows.
 12  20                   First, we will hear the applicant's
 13       presentation.  Questions from the Commission will
 14       follow this presentation.
 15  21                   In Phase II, the appearing
 16       intervenors listed in the agenda will be granted ten
 17       minutes to present their intervention and there may be
 18       questions from the Commission following each
 19       presentation.
 20  22                   In the last phase, the applicant will
 21       be provided an opportunity to respond to the
 22       interventions submitted to its application.
 23  23                   Ten minutes will be granted for this
 24       reply and again questions may follow.
 25  24                   Now, Mr. Chairman, we will hear the

5
  1       presentation by World Television Network/Le Réseau
  2       Télémonde Inc., and I will ask Mr. Iannuzzi to
  3       introduce his colleagues.
  4  25                   You have 20 minutes to make your
  5       presentation.
  6       PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
  7  26                   MR. IANNUZZI:  Thank you very much.
  8  27                   Mr. Chairman, Members of the Panel,
  9       CRTC Hearing Manager, Legal Counsel and Analysts,
 10       Ladies and Gentlemen.
 11  28                   May I first introduce the World
 12       Télémonde programming team.  At the table directly
 13       facing you:  Howard Bernstein and Lon Appleby will be
 14       in charge of our programming, particularly our Canadian
 15       multicultural programming.
 16  29                   You have seen their work on almost
 17       every Canadian network.  This year they will have six 
 18       series running on Canadian television.  They have
 19       another 15 in production and concept development.
 20  30                   Michael McHale, Vice-President,
 21       previously at CHUM-CITY and Alliance Communications,
 22       currently at the cutting edge of technology with
 23       Telbotics.
 24  31                   Firdaus Kharas, Ottawa-based
 25       producer, with more than 1,000 hours of successful

6
  1       program production in both Canada and Asia is available
  2       to WTM.
  3  32                   Marcel Clémont, franco-Manitobain,
  4       producteur indépendant, avec une expérience passée à
  5       titre de producteur exécutif tant à l'Office national
  6       du film qu'à Radio-Canada.
  7  33                   Bill Brooks, a Principal in BIGBOARD
  8       Marketing, Vancouver.
  9  34                   And now may I direct your attention
 10       to our management team at this table.
 11  35                   I am Dan Iannuzzi, President of WTM,
 12       a founding partner in CITY-TV, founder of CFMT, Channel
 13       47, publisher of Corriere Canadese in Italian; Correo
 14       Canadiense in Spanish; Nove Ilhas in Portuguese; and
 15       the Tandem and Town Crier papers in English.
 16  36                   Our Senior Vice-President, Kerry
 17       Johnston, a former senior federal public servant
 18       responsible for multiculturalism.  He is an experienced
 19       executive who has led several organizations through the
 20       changes necessary to remain relevant to Quebec and
 21       Canadian society.
 22  37                   Doreen Iannuzzi, Director and
 23       Corporate Secretary at the Town Crier community
 24       newspaper and WTM's Hearing Coordinator.
 25  38                   Dr. Ken Marchant, our legal counsel,

7
  1       one of Canada's most experienced public lawyers.  He
  2       has appeared before the Commission on ethnic
  3       applications, pay-TV applications for CFMT, Rogers,
  4       CanWest Global, and now for World Télémonde.
  5  39                   Mr. Chairman, a most distinguished
  6       film and television producer, one of only two people to
  7       receive a lifetime achievement award from the Banff
  8       Television Festival, a producer of award-winning
  9       programs which entertain audiences in both official
 10       languages, our Chair, Rock Demers.
 11  40                   Rock?
 12  41                   M. ROCK DEMERS:  Monsieur le
 13       Président, Conseillers, mesdames et messieurs.
 14  42                   La gouverneure générale en conseil a
 15       demandé à ce que la décision 2001-757 soit réexaminée
 16       parce qu'elle déroge aux objectifs énoncés par notre
 17       Parlement dans la Loi sur la radiodiffusion.
 18  43                   Les arguments sur lesquels doit
 19       s'appuyer cette réexamination sont énoncés dans les
 20       pétitions adressées au Cabinet, dans la soumission de
 21       Télémonde, dans les interventions en notre défaveur
 22       ainsi que nos réponses à ces interventions.
 23  44                   Nous apprécions à sa juste valeur le
 24       temps que vous avez dû mettre à étudier tous ces
 25       documents vous permettant ainsi d'être en mesure

8
  1       d'exprimer un choix clair.
  2  45                   D'importants intérêts dans
  3       l'industrie du câble et de la télédiffusion en la
  4       partie anglophone de notre pays s'opposent à ce que la
  5       licence demandée par Télémonde lui soit accordée sur
  6       mode analogique.
  7  46                   Par contre, pas une seule opposition
  8       n'est venue de sociétés basées au Québec opérant en ce
  9       domaine.
 10  47                   Télémonde a obtenu le support de
 11       députés de l'Assemblée nationale du Québec, de députés
 12       d'autres législatures provinciales, de députés du
 13       Parlement canadien, de syndicats de travailleurs,
 14       d'organisations multiculturelles tant régionales que
 15       nationales, de producteurs indépendants, de nombreux
 16       individus provenant d'origines culturelles très
 17       diverses.
 18  48                   Différentes approches s'offrent au
 19       Conseil.  Nos opposants vous invitent à ne considérer
 20       que certains aspects des politiques du CRTC afin de
 21       cantonner Télémonde hors du domaine de la diffusion
 22       analogique.
 23  49                   Vous n'avez pas été sans remarquer
 24       que peu de nos opposants se sont référés dans leur
 25       argumentation à notre Loi sur la radiodiffusion.

9
  1  50                   Nous apprécierions beaucoup que votre
  2       décision soit basée sur cette loi telle qu'amendée en
  3       1991 de sorte qu'elle reflète l'évolution de notre
  4       pays.
  5  51                   Télémonde tient particulièrement à ce
  6       que le contenu des sections 3, 5 et 9 soient
  7       considérées dans leur intégralité.
  8  52                   J'aimerais conclure en disant que je
  9       ne suis ici que pour une seule raison, parce que
 10       Télémonde n'est pas un canal ethnique.  Le concept
 11       présenté par Télémonde fait en sorte que ce que nous
 12       irons chercher dans la production italienne, polonaise,
 13       chinoise, soit celle qui intéresse l'ensemble des
 14       Canadiens et non pas celle qui intéresse de façon
 15       spécifique les Italiens, les Polonais et les Chinois
 16       qui habitent au Canada.
 17  53                   Merci.
 18  54                   MR. JOHNSTON:  Mr. Chairman, in our
 19       reply to all the opposing interventions, we have
 20       demonstrated how the demographics of Canada have
 21       changed.
 22  55                   It's rather dramatic.  By 1996, 37
 23       per cent of all seniors in this country, 43 per cent of
 24       adults, and 50 per cent of youth under 25 identified
 25       themselves as from a cultural origin other than

10
  1       British, French or Canadian.
  2  56                   The 2001 Census numbers will be even
  3       more dramatic and they will out early next year.
  4  57                   There is published research on what
  5       this means to the daily life of Canadians:  82 per cent
  6       or more live in neighbourhoods with people of different
  7       cultural heritages; more than two-thirds of Canadian
  8       workplaces have people from different heritages;  three
  9       quarters of Canadians have friends they see regularly
 10       who come from different cultural backgrounds.
 11  58                   Not only has our population changed,
 12       but our Broadcasting Act has changed also.  It changed
 13       so much so that 21 of the 29 broadcast policy
 14       objectives to which WTM will make a contribution did
 15       not exist until 1991.
 16  59                   Many of these new objectives relate
 17       specifically to our linguistic duality, and our
 18       multiculturalism.  WTM responds to both.
 19  60                   MR. IANNUZZI:  Mr. Chairman, World
 20       Télémonde is truly a Canadian multicultural service. 
 21       It's a 50/50 service -- 50 per cent Canadian
 22       multicultural, 50 per cent international
 23       multicultural -- chosen from a Canadian perspective.
 24  61                   It is a mirror on our multicultural
 25       selves, particularly in evening programs like "Day and

11
  1       Night", "Mainstreets", "Cabaret" and "Modern Icons". 
  2       It is a prism for the full spectrum of world events and
  3       world programming seen through Canadian eyes, seen
  4       through Canadian eyes in our nightly current affairs
  5       program, "WorldJournal" and in the 7:00 p.m. time slot
  6       preferred by Canadians for news and current affairs.
  7  62                   Seen through Canadian eyes in
  8       international programming selected for a diverse
  9       Canadian audience.  We have given specific examples in
 10       the material filed with you, examples in film,
 11       documentaries, and variety programming.  Our
 12       programming team can give you more on these categories.
 13  63                   WTM programming is accessible to all,
 14       including the hearing impaired, through
 15       audience-friendly subtitles in both of Canada's
 16       official languages.
 17  64                   Mr. Chairman, it is also important to
 18       stress what World Télémonde is not.  It is not an
 19       ethnic service, as our Chair just said.  WTM will have
 20       no "ethnic" programming directed to particular
 21       culturally or racially defined groups.  WTM is not just
 22       an outward-looking service, a world programming
 23       service.  We are committed to reflecting Canadian
 24       diversity as a primary mission.
 25  65                   But, equally, WTM is not just an

12
  1       inward-looking service.  Canadians are interested in
  2       other places and other cultures, not just themselves. 
  3       This is one of the reasons Canadians are so well
  4       regarded by others around the world.
  5  66                   Mr. Chairman, we are ready for your
  6       questions, but l do have one request.  At the beginning
  7       of the last hearing, Commissioner Cardozo said, and I
  8       quote:
  9                              "Feel free to answer any
 10                              questions that we might not 
 11                              have asked.  This is really your
 12                              chance to give us all the
 13                              information you think we need in
 14                              order to make the decision".
 15  67                   Mr. Chairman, we do have a list of
 16       points which are important to us.  Since we have been
 17       brief -- you will admit -- may we have a very few
 18       minutes at the end of the questions to note any which
 19       may have not been raised in your questions, or which we
 20       would like to clarify?
 21  68                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 22  69                   The answer to your question is yes.
 23  70                   MR. IANNUZZI:  Thank you,
 24       Mr. Chairman.
 25  71                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  I guess, as I said

13
  1       in the opening statement, that we are obliged, after
  2       reconsidering a hearing, to consider the matter and to
  3       choose among a number of alternatives and I concluded
  4       recision of the decision as one.  Another is confirming
  5       the decision, either with or without change, variation
  6       or alteration.
  7  72                   You are, of course, asking us to
  8       confirm the decision with the alteration that you in a
  9       sense have analog carriage, if that is your position.
 10  73                   MR. IANNUZZI:  We do appreciate the
 11       licence.  That part, we do.
 12  74                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.
 13  75                   MR. IANNUZZI:  It's the carriage, of
 14       course.
 15  76                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am going to ask
 16       you one or two general questions and turn the
 17       questioning over to my colleagues.
 18  77                   In trying to help us reach the
 19       decision, I guess you would recognize that in order for
 20       us to implement the Broadcasting Act in this instance
 21       that if we came to the conclusion that a service such
 22       as yours might be a suitable service for carriage on
 23       analog, that fairness might also dictate that that
 24       opportunity to provide such a service be provided to a
 25       wider audience so that we could in effect choose from

14
  1       among the best proposals for such carriage since no
  2       such service is currently being carried.  That would
  3       follow presumably from the decision option if we went
  4       down that route.
  5  78                   I guess I would ask you to help me
  6       answer the question:  Why, if we came to the conclusion
  7       that such a service should be desired on analog, that
  8       we not go to a procedure of calling for applications
  9       and getting the best one to come forward and licensing
 10       that?
 11  79                   MR. IANNUZZI:  Before I turn this
 12       over to my colleague and legal counsel here, the
 13       question is, and you used the key word "in fairness". 
 14       To whom?  To those who have not applied over the past
 15       ten years once the Commission was calling for this and
 16       whilst we have appeared four times before this
 17       Commission?
 18  80                   I mean, where does fairness and where
 19       does justice actually unfold in this particular thing? 
 20       I think that we are here, as we have been before, and
 21       we are here because we feel that the Commission, on its
 22       part, did licence this service.  Therefore if they
 23       licensed this service they must believe that this
 24       service is necessary and answers a certain demand from
 25       the general public, from Canadians at large.

15
  1  81                   What we are here to discuss is the
  2       fairness of the second part of this whole thing:  Did
  3       this licence get the type of carriage that would make
  4       it viable?  Now, there is a whole legal question that
  5       goes with this as well, and I would like to pass this
  6       on to Dr. Marchant.
  7  82                   MR. MARCHANT:  Thank you,
  8       Mr. Iannuzzi, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
  9  83                   I endorse what Mr. Iannuzzi has just
 10       said.  I think that is a central issue that this type
 11       of licence has been known in the industry for a long
 12       time.  It has been part of a public process on a number
 13       of occasions.  There have been multiple opportunities
 14       for others to come forward and they have not.
 15  84                   I think it's also relevant that the
 16       Governor in Council could have, under the Broadcasting
 17       Act, done something different, as the Governor in
 18       Council did in the case of the Vancouver multilingual
 19       television, in the case of a French-language art
 20       service, in the case of ethnic radio in the Greater
 21       Toronto Area.  It could have asked the Commission to
 22       look into this category of service and report on it,
 23       and that would then be the basis for a call for
 24       applications which has been the approach in the three
 25       examples that I have mentioned, and the Governor in

16
  1       Council did not do that.
  2  85                   The Governor in Council found that
  3       this decision that is before us today did derogate from
  4       the Broadcasting Act and it was sent back for rehearing
  5       with this licensee and this licensee alone.
  6  86                   I know, Mr. Chairman, this was not
  7       the spirit of your question, but please redirect me if
  8       I am going in a direction that is not helpful to you,
  9       but your question does bring to mind certain
 10       interventions and might I comment on those as well?
 11  87                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  I was looking at
 12       this in a more general way.  If you think commenting
 13       would be helpful, that's fine, but there will be an
 14       opportunity to do that at the end of the process.
 15  88                   Well, you go ahead.  Feel free to
 16       comment.
 17  89                   MR. MARCHANT:  Well, let me just be
 18       very brief because this issue has been put on the table
 19       by three very large media groups in intervention.  I
 20       think that raises, in the context they are raising it,
 21       three important questions -- also by the Canadian
 22       Association of Broadcasters.  I will be very brief.
 23  90                   The first is I think in asking the
 24       Commission to use that as a ground to rescind this
 25       decision, they are, in my opinion, asking the

17
  1       Commission to do something I don't think the Commission
  2       would ever want to do which is to abuse its discretion. 
  3       I think that would be a totally inappropriate ground
  4       for recision.
  5  91                   Secondly, I think it is important
  6       that these are very large media conglomerates.  What
  7       they are asking is that an independent voice be
  8       silenced so they can have an opportunity now, and they
  9       have all had that opportunity, we would say.  They are
 10       really asking that this application be killed and the
 11       opportunity be turned over to them.
 12  92                   Thirdly, WTM has been granted a
 13       licence with conditions of licence -- a lot of
 14       conditions of licence -- which are acceptable.  We are
 15       simply down to carriage.
 16  93                   I suggest that in asking that this be
 17       open to a public call, the similar precedent would
 18       then, I think logically, apply to any member of the
 19       Canadian Association of Broadcasters, for example, who
 20       came before you asking for a change in their carriage
 21       status, that it should then be open to a public call
 22       because it's a very different kind of thing, it could
 23       be argued.  I think there is a significant precedent.
 24  94                   So with those three brief points, I
 25       would round out our stance of the issue as you put it.

18
  1  95                   I know I went a little beyond what
  2       you had in mind, and I thank you for your time.
  3  96                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think I have the
  4       gist of your answer on the point.
  5  97                   Let me ask another general question
  6       which is that I take it that you feel, Mr. Iannuzzi,
  7       that your service is a service that quote:
  8                              "... aspires to reflect and
  9                              connect Canada's multicultural
 10                              communities to broader
 11                              audiences".
 12  98                   Is that correct?
 13  99                   MR. IANNUZZI:  Absolutely.  I think
 14       our application, which has been in the works over the
 15       decade has really built itself as being the unique and
 16       prime service in dealing with the whole question of
 17       multiculturalism and multicultural programming.
 18  100                  The confusion that has taken place
 19       over the past decade has been the whole question of
 20       ethnocultural programming versus multicultural and
 21       using each one as a misnomer in various instances.
 22  101                  So yes, we are, and we firmly believe
 23       that we are the prime service at this particular time
 24       available and ready to go in the country and respond to
 25       the demand of Canadians for the past decade.

19
  1  102                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
  2       much.
  3  103                  Commissioner Pennefather?
  4  104                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you,
  5       Mr. Chairman.
  6  105                  Good evening to you, Mr. Iannuzzi and
  7       to your panel.
  8  106                  My task this evening -- and we will
  9       continue tomorrow because I have quite a few
 10       questions -- is the programming area.  So I will direct
 11       my questions to you, but feel free to pass them onto
 12       your programming experts and others.
 13  107                  It's an exercise which, pursuant to
 14       the conversation we just had with the Chair, is one
 15       that has that context clearly.  Yes, we are here to
 16       discussion carriage.  Yes, there is a licence that is
 17       there.
 18  108                  But in the context of the OiC and the
 19       previous decision, I think it's important we take the
 20       time to go back to review the concept itself, the
 21       programming approach that you have taken and do that in
 22       some detail so that we have a very good understanding
 23       of why it is that you responded as you just did to the
 24       Chair in terms of what this service is bringing to
 25       Canadians and why you feel that it should have the

20
  1       carriage that you have proposed and various options
  2       that you have given us.
  3  109                  So with that, if you agree, we will
  4       go through the programming concept as a whole and then
  5       I would like to look at some individual programs, both
  6       from the English-language point of view and the French-
  7       language point of view.
  8  110                  As we do so, I would ask you to keep
  9       in mind the answer you just gave to the Chair's
 10       question.  The term you used "prime" service, the term
 11       you used "unique" service in today's television
 12       environment.
 13  111                  I would ask you also to consider the
 14       criterion, and that is clearly not new to you and that
 15       is in dealing with the specialty service that is
 16       requesting the carriage you are proposing, one of the
 17       things that we will look at is that this service will
 18       be of exceptional importance in fulfilling the
 19       objectives of the Broadcasting Act.
 20  112                  So as we go through all the aspects
 21       of programming, I would like to keep those bars that
 22       you have set in mind because in order for us to really
 23       fairly examine the appropriateness of carriage, I think
 24       we should understand what it is you have in mind 
 25       putting on the screens of this country.

21
  1  113                  That's the general view I have.
  2  114                  When we discussed also the
  3       Broadcasting Act, and I believe Chair Demers also
  4       appropriately raised the Broadcasting Act in this
  5       discussion, I know in your April 8th submission you
  6       listed 29 objectives of the Act but I, for the purposes
  7       of this discussion at this time, would suggest that we
  8       focus on Section 3(1)(d)(iii) since, as you well said,
  9       one of the major points of your submission is that this
 10       is a multicultural station, multicultural service.
 11  115                  I would ask that we look at the
 12       programs in that light, how this service would fulfil
 13       the objectives of 3(1)(d)(iii), how this service will
 14       fill the objectives that are mentioned in the Order-in-
 15       Council, not only reflecting Canada's cultural
 16       communities, but connecting Canada's cultural
 17       communities.
 18  116                  What I have in front of me as we go
 19       through these questions -- and I see you are in your
 20       application book -- I am using the April 8th
 21       amendments, but I also have in front of me the June
 22       submission and will refer to certain descriptive
 23       phrases and paragraphs you used to describe the
 24       service.  But in fairness, I think I will be dealing
 25       mostly with the April 8th submission.

22
  1  117                  Now, I understand that in that
  2       submission, in the executive summary, page ii, you say
  3       that you are not changing the nature of the service as
  4       described in 2001-757.  Is that correct?
  5  118                  MR. IANNUZZI:  That's correct.
  6  119                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And just
  7       to be clear, what you are referring to there is the
  8       nature of service described in paragraph 31(a) which
  9       lists the conditions of licence.
 10  120                  MR. IANNUZZI:  I'm just trying to
 11       find that page.
 12  121                  MR. MARCHANT:  Commissioner
 13       Pennefather, while he is doing that, I would say that I
 14       think we did say clearly in the April 8th submission
 15       that we are adopting the service description in the
 16       opening paragraph of 2001-757.
 17  122                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I have on
 18       page ii, it says:  "We wish to change the nature of
 19       service in the decision", and I recognize that the
 20       point is made later in the submission, Mr. Marchant.
 21  123                  So that's the purpose of my question,
 22       in fact, is which description were you dealing with? 
 23       They are essentially the same, but you will understand
 24       the importance of this point as I go forward.
 25  124                  Any problems with that comment?

23
  1  125                  MR. MARCHANT:  I'm not clearly
  2       understanding the distinction so that I can answer the
  3       question, or so we can answer the question.
  4  126                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  All right. 
  5       If we take the decision, there is an opening paragraph,
  6       a summary paragraph, and if you go to paragraph of the
  7       same decision, paragraph (a) of paragraph 31, it says: 
  8       The licensee will provide a national service...".
  9  127                  MR. MARCHANT:  I do now understand.
 10  128                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I am
 11       taking that to be that the nature of service
 12       description that you are proposing to maintain, just
 13       for the record.
 14  129                  MR. MARCHANT:  My computer is a
 15       little slower -- sorry, I didn't have it right in front
 16       of me.
 17  130                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Paper
 18       perhaps?
 19  131                  MR. MARCHANT:  Well, good point.
 20  132                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  You
 21       mentioned the conditions yourself earlier in your
 22       discussion with the Chair.  So I think we are on the
 23       same wavelength actually.
 24  133                  MR. MARCHANT:  Yes, if you would like
 25       we can bring some text back to you, but --

24
  1  134                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  No, there
  2       is no need for that.  It's just to confirm that that is
  3       the nature of service we are dealing with.
  4  135                  MR. MARCHANT:  Well, there has been,
  5       from our standpoint, some misunderstanding with the
  6       Commission about the importance and role of our
  7       Canadian multicultural programming.
  8  136                  So for example, in the Notice of
  9       Public Hearing for this proceeding we are described
 10       simply as a "world programming service" with no
 11       reference to our Canadian multicultural programming
 12       which is extremely important to us and the sensitivity
 13       I am disclosing is to that.
 14  137                  I think that paragraph 31(a), I would
 15       suggest, doesn't capture the description of service as
 16       fully as the opening paragraph of 757.
 17  138                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Fair
 18       enough.
 19  139                  You are a little ahead of me in terms
 20       of where we are heading with this question.  So I
 21       appreciate your point.  We are going to look at
 22       Canadian world programming and the balance as now
 23       submitted to us.
 24  140                  But what is important as well is to
 25       understand is that the nature of service describes this

25
  1       proposal as a specialty service and that remains the
  2       case.
  3  141                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes.
  4  142                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yet at
  5       other times you describe this, Mr. Iannuzzi -- and this
  6       is perhaps a general comment -- as a mainstream
  7       multicultural service.
  8  143                  Again, I quote you from the June
  9       submission of the supplementary brief.  You say:
 10                              "WTM will be the most inclusive
 11                              and unique of Canadian
 12                              services".
 13  144                  Is this a mainstream service or
 14       speciality service?  Can you tell me how we can be both
 15       a mainstream service and a specialty service at the
 16       same time?
 17  145                  MR. IANNUZZI:  The term "mainstream"
 18       there meant that it was a service that was to reach all
 19       Canadians in that sense and it wasn't defined in a
 20       narrow ethnic community sense being that that would
 21       have been the narrower part of what might be call the
 22       "new mainstream".  So I mean that distinction, so that
 23       when we talk about WTM as a service, of course, it is a
 24       specialty service, but we are talking that it is a
 25       service that we believe is important that it be

26
  1       accessible to the entire "mainstream", the largest
  2       audience that is available to a television broadcaster.
  3  146                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay. 
  4       Just a subtlety on that.  I understand the point you
  5       are making "largest" perhaps in the sense of numbers,
  6       but I am also interesting in knowing -- I am hearing
  7       again, and you explained this at length at the June
  8       hearing -- normally a specialty service is geared to a
  9       niche group or a niche interest, shall we say, and at
 10       the same time you are saying you are a specialty
 11       service but you are reaching all Canadians, a broad
 12       spectrum of society.
 13  147                  I think this is fundamental to what
 14       you are trying to do here.
 15  148                  So could you just explain a little
 16       further how you can both technically a specialty
 17       service for the purposes of our rules and regs, if you
 18       will, and at the same time what could be described, and
 19       has been described by some intervenors, as a broad
 20       general service, not a specialty service as such.
 21  149                  Could you just explain that?
 22  150                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes.  I think that we
 23       are a specialty service in that we do have a specialty
 24       in the true sense of bringing in world programming from
 25       a Canadian perspective that is not available within the

27
  1       system, and secondly, specializing in the production of
  2       multicultural, truly multicultural programming that
  3       today is not available in the system.
  4  151                  Although the Commission is calling
  5       upon industry and industry is promising once again to
  6       develop that particular area, right now it isn't the
  7       case.  We are the ones that are sitting here stating
  8       that we have the capacity and the ability to produce a
  9       special kind of programming that fits within the
 10       system, that brings Canadians another perspective of
 11       who they are, what they are, and where they are going. 
 12       That's where we are a "specialty", in that sense.
 13  152                  But to do this we need a broad sense
 14       of categories in order to bring forth this particular
 15       expression of the Canadian reality because it takes
 16       place in all of these areas and of these program
 17       categories, under our specialty, that today -- maybe
 18       tomorrow will be different, but today as we sit before
 19       you -- is not available and certainly is not being
 20       produced by the mainstream networks.
 21  153                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Do you see
 22       why --
 23  154                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Promises, promises,
 24       but right now it is not being done.
 25  155                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Do you see

28
  1       why I go after those terms a little bit though because
  2       we don't want to leave them in limbo.  We want to --
  3  156                  MR. IANNUZZI:  And I appreciate that. 
  4       I appreciated the question because it gave the
  5       opportunity in order to express exactly what we believe
  6       we are specialists at in that sense.
  7  157                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Well,
  8       let's get to that programming then and look at what's
  9       on the screen, in fact.
 10  158                  The April 8th submission makes some
 11       changes to the programming schedule and the programming
 12       content.  In fact, if I am correct, you have dropped
 13       some programs because you said they are available now
 14       in the system.  So I think it's fair to keep in mind
 15       that you can see a little bit that I want to go after
 16       this point that you are unique again and again because
 17       it behooves us today to really discuss at length why
 18       this is an exceptional and unique service, as you have
 19       said.
 20  159                  So in looking at the April 8th
 21       submission, I see you removed some of the programs from
 22       the Canada list because they are available.  Those that
 23       remain I would like to look at with you in some detail.
 24  160                  Just generally speaking, this new
 25       schedule has also shifted some of the Canadian content

29
  1       into the six o'clock to eight o'clock, right up to the
  2       nine o'clock timeframe, if I am correct.
  3  161                  Previously your schedule was in the
  4       evening hours, although 50 per cent Canadian content,
  5       prime time was the world programming.  If you agree we
  6       will call it the world programming.
  7  162                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes.
  8  163                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And you
  9       have made a change in that regard.
 10  164                  What do you think the reaction of
 11       your supporters will be because it was my impression
 12       that you have changed the nature of the service, not in
 13       the legal sense, but the concept itself has shifted,
 14       that it is less, and I quote:
 15                              "A service about the wide world
 16                              of television".
 17  165                  A service which you yourself called:
 18                              "The picture of the global
 19                              society and the peoples that
 20                              inhabit it".
 21  166                  That it's something else now.
 22  167                  Would you agree with me on that?
 23  168                  MR. IANNUZZI:  No.
 24       --- Laughter / Rires
 25  169                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I know,

30
  1       but could you explain please?
  2  170                  MR. IANNUZZI:  My job is not here to
  3       disagree with you.  It's to agree with you in just
  4       about every instance that would lead us to come back to
  5       my opening statement that this is an exceptional
  6       service.
  7  171                  When we looked at our application,
  8       you have to appreciate the fact that this group has,
  9       over the past -- I won't even say decade because it
 10       makes me feel older than I am.  The fact is over the
 11       last three applications, we have always had to look at
 12       what are the changes that the Commission has brought
 13       in, what has been licensed, both on analog and in the
 14       specialty areas of digital, all of this coming in are
 15       certain changes that as businesspeople, because this is
 16       a business, we have to look at.  What makes it better
 17       or worse for us to come forward?
 18  172                  During this last instance, the
 19       Commission did make some reference to the fact that
 20       within the prime-time area, and particular peak, that
 21       we were -- how should I say -- lacking.  Now, that was
 22       part of a change in answering to the Commission's
 23       request or identifying a particular lack within the
 24       application, although, when we look at it, that that
 25       didn't really apply to specialty services.  That whole

31
  1       question of peak, in some instances, belongs to
  2       mainstream networks.
  3  173                  So we did this in order to show that
  4       we are able to, we have the flexibility within our
  5       schedule.  It's not a question of satisfying supporters
  6       that we are talking about the wide world of television. 
  7       Surely, we are doing that.  We haven't changed that. 
  8       Fifty per cent of our schedule is world programming,
  9       selected, as we keep saying, under a Canadian
 10       perspective.
 11  174                  The viewers will still get that.  We
 12       moved some of that out of prime in order to make room
 13       for what we believe -- and you will hear that from our
 14       programming people shortly -- a block of time within
 15       peak time that is good, solid and unique Canadian
 16       multicultural programming.
 17  175                  So that's why there is a change
 18       there, not because there was anything wrong with the
 19       schedule before because as a specialty that schedule
 20       stood up.  Otherwise we wouldn't have been "licensed"
 21       had that not been there.  But the Commission is
 22       bringing that to our attention, good, bad or
 23       indifferent.  We responded and said:  Why not?  We can
 24       do that.  If that is what the Commission believes
 25       multicultural programming should be as far as viewers

32
  1       are available and accessible to Canadians, if that's in
  2       the time period, why can't we do it?  Yes, we can do it
  3       and it still made a lot of sense.  We were still able
  4       to keep 50 per cent in prime and 50 per cent in peak
  5       time, 54 per cent all overall.  So we have a balanced
  6       schedule at this point.
  7  176                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Well,
  8       obviously I am more interested in what you think is a
  9       good multicultural service and why you made those
 10       choices and why you feel that it would still be the
 11       kind of service that you say is unique and exceptional.
 12  177                  When you look at the Canadian
 13       programs that you have proposed to us, both throughout
 14       the day and in prime, you have called them, in fact,
 15       the backbone of the broadcast day on page 23, and I
 16       quote:
 17                              "We are so committed to our
 18                              Canadian contents that Canadian
 19                              programs will kick off prime
 20                              time and peak time seven days a
 21                              week".
 22  178                  They will kick it off, but they will
 23       not occupy that prime peak time.  Am I correct?
 24  179                  MR. IANNUZZI:  They will not?
 25  180                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That's

33
  1       correct.  You said:
  2                              "... will kick off prime time
  3                              and peak time seven days a
  4                              week".
  5  181                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Well, that's what our
  6       new schedule shows.
  7  182                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yes, but
  8       is the backbone of your schedule?
  9  183                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Of course.  Canadian
 10       programming -- this particular service without the
 11       Canadian programming is not a service.  It wouldn't be
 12       any different than any other specialty service or any
 13       of the eligible channels, foreign channels that you are
 14       doing because all it would be -- anyone can do that. 
 15       Anyone can go out and buy 126 hours' worth of
 16       programming and have a world programming channel.
 17  184                  That would be a window on the world
 18       and I suppose it would be called the Wide World
 19       Network.  But that's not our mandate, self-imposed as
 20       it might be.  This is to produce the Canadian
 21       programming.  This is what makes our channel different. 
 22       It's the essence.
 23  185                  I mean, the fact is that when we talk
 24       about world programming, we are only talking less than
 25       10 per cent American and British programming.  Why? 

34
  1       Because we want to give the channel the kind of world
  2       programming that reflects the peoples of the world who
  3       are in Canada.  Why do we want to choose a particular
  4       kind of world programming?  There is an abundance, so
  5       much of it that 94 per cent of it never gets on North
  6       American television.  So we have ample choice.  We
  7       don't have to beg anyone, outbid anyone.  We can choose
  8       the best kind of world programming.  But that's one
  9       part of the service.  The real part is the Canadian
 10       programming.
 11  186                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And it's
 12       the Canadian programming I would like to focus on.
 13  187                  MR. IANNUZZI:  That's right.  Now, I
 14       would like to turn that over to the people who are
 15       going to be responsible.  Other than producing our own
 16       news, the bulk, as you know there, will be produced by
 17       independent production.
 18  188                  The people on our group that will be
 19       leading those independent producers across country,
 20       both in English and French, are here today and can
 21       answer your questions, and if we can add more to that,
 22       I am absolutely pleased that this whole thing boils
 23       down to -- and if it means the right kind of carriage,
 24       then we are here to convince you that we have the
 25       ability to make this Canadian programming unique within

35
  1       the broadcasting system.
  2  189                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Well, I
  3       would appreciate that.
  4  190                  Just for the record first though,
  5       where we have ended up is the same as we had
  6       previously, the Canadian content going from 40 per cent
  7       to 60 per cent in year 7, and over the evening period,
  8       50 per cent.  We are still there.
  9  191                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes, we are and we
 10       have made a commitment in a sense, as you will see the
 11       schedule that we have here, which I have shown and
 12       which shows that 50 per cent in prime is Canada, and
 13       52 per cent overall.  That's the snapshot of what we
 14       believe we can do if we are given the right kind of
 15       carriage.
 16  192                  So the whole question of 40 going to
 17       60, that was in place in order to say if we can start
 18       off at a certain level, we can grow into that.  With
 19       the right kind of carriage we believe we can actually
 20       do better than that in year 1.
 21  193                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Perhaps
 22       when we are discussing distribution, I will come back
 23       to that point because you have several options
 24       presented to us, but in many cases we don't have on the
 25       file what the results of those options are.  So we will

36
  1       hold that thought and we will come back to it
  2       specifically on each option that you say that you can
  3       perhaps do better with your Canadian content component.
  4  194                  But you know what I am also concerned
  5       about is that this is a programming discussion -- what
  6       is on the screens in this country, what drove this idea
  7       from the beginning world content to Canadian viewers
  8       and your multicultural service.  This combination was
  9       also discussed at the previous hearing.
 10  195                  If we look at the Canadian side on
 11       which you are placing more and more emphasis now, it
 12       still remains that if we take what we have in front of
 13       us, it will take until year 5 before the Canadian
 14       content is really the backbone of this broadcast day. 
 15       Is that correct?
 16  196                  MR. IANNUZZI:  No, I don't think so. 
 17       I think that we can do that a lot sooner specifically
 18       because we also have what comes into play is the French
 19       programming that we expect to do within our series,
 20       that the French programming has a big role to play as
 21       well in the composition of what our Canadian
 22       programming schedule does.
 23  197                  But I am getting away from -- I am
 24       getting into other people's territory here.
 25  198                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Just

37
  1       before we move to the specifics -- and I do have a
  2       series of questions on certain of the shows, not all of
  3       them, obviously, but a few that would give us a sense. 
  4       Before we get there, I still want to talk about
  5       Canadian content exhibition from a general point of
  6       view.
  7  199                  There are a couple of comments that I
  8       would like you to expand on again, and here we come
  9       back to our first starting point, that you say this is
 10       a unique service and this is an exceptional service for
 11       fulfilling the objectives of the Broadcasting Act.
 12  200                  When it comes to our assessment of
 13       your Canadian content exhibition, you have said in your
 14       submissions that the only fair way to treat an
 15       applicant is on a comparative basis.
 16  201                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Correct.
 17  202                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Fair
 18       enough?
 19  203                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes.
 20  204                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And
 21       specifically you appear to take the position that there
 22       should be relevant comparisons between WTM and other
 23       Canadian and specialty-like services now carried on
 24       analog.
 25  205                  Why do you feel you should be

38
  1       compared to other services, particularly non-specialty
  2       services?
  3  206                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Well, I think that
  4       again it's a question of fairness of how you can arrive
  5       at the question of not having two weights and two
  6       measures.
  7  207                  So if we compare what someone
  8       delivers in order to gain access to an analog channel,
  9       then I think, using the objectives of the Broadcasting
 10       Act, that we make that comparison.  We cannot just be
 11       arbitrary, just say well, it's neither ethnic -- well,
 12       it's something like ethnic so it should be
 13       discretionary because it's this.
 14  208                  I mean, it's a question of mindset
 15       and that's what we are trying to distinguish here
 16       today, to leave that whole question of ethnic,
 17       discretionary, and all that kind of service, and look
 18       at this as an exceptional service, as something unique,
 19       something different and in that light the only way then
 20       that, through the comparison, can we arrive at a fair,
 21       reasonable decision on your part that says:  Yes, in
 22       light of all of these comparisons, this particular
 23       channel is unique and does meet more objectives of the
 24       Broadcasting Act and should be deemed an exceptional
 25       service in the public interest and, therefore, gain

39
  1       access to analog and part of the basic service.
  2  209                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So indeed,
  3       since you state it that way, which specialty services
  4       would offer the best comparison to your service in this
  5       regard and why?
  6       --- Pause
  7  210                  MR. IANNUZZI:  So on the question of
  8       services, we are going to disregard those that do have
  9       modified dual status which we had called for, such as
 10       the Comedy Network, Teletoon, Space, Star TV, Outdoor
 11       Life and TalkTV, but we are not worried about that for
 12       now.  We are talking the ones such as the high-
 13       penetration ArTV in the French market, dual status CBC
 14       Newsworld, Vision TV, YTV and MuchMusic and Section
 15       9(1)(h), APTN, TVA national carriage.
 16  211                  So we would like to do the comparison
 17       towards those that are analog and part of basic
 18       service.  Then when we get into the diversity
 19       programming channels, there is a comparison there as
 20       well that the conventional networks that do some of the
 21       diversity programming are on basic, ie. CTV, CanWest
 22       Global and TVA.
 23  212                  Then we get into the regional
 24       multilingual stations that are on basic, CFMT-TV, CJNT
 25       in Montreal, the new MultiVan in Vancouver, CFMP-2

40
  1       which is about to be licensed and about to go to air,
  2       the Craig Toronto-Hamilton, all on basic.
  3  213                  We go into the local stations that
  4       carry ethnic programming, they are on basic.
  5  214                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I think I
  6       asked for comparison of specialty services.  If you
  7       recall, we talked at the very beginning about specialty
  8       services.
  9  215                  MR. IANNUZZI:  All right.  I was just
 10       getting down to that one.
 11  216                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And I
 12       think in fairness --
 13  217                  MR. IANNUZZI:  The ethnic specialties
 14       such as Telelatino is on analog.  The ethnic
 15       specialties such as Fairchild, TalentVision, Asian
 16       Television Odyssey are on discretionary services.  So
 17       they are the ones that we are comparing to.
 18  218                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  In terms
 19       of Canadian content exhibition then, with your proposal
 20       of 40 per cent in year 1 and up to 60 in year 7 and 50
 21       per cent in the evening hours, where do you position
 22       yourself in terms of comparison to other specialty
 23       services?
 24  219                  MR. IANNUZZI:  That's the one with
 25       Bravo! and --

41
  1       --- Pause
  2  220                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Do you
  3       want to get back to me on that point?
  4  221                  MR. IANNUZZI:  No, we just have it
  5       here.  Just one more second --
  6  222                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  You
  7       understand why I am asking the question, is you have
  8       raised it several times yourself.
  9  223                  MR. IANNUZZI:  I agree and we do have
 10       the right comparison.  I just thought it was general
 11       categories, but you want the specific --
 12  224                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  The
 13       specific was the specialties in terms of Cancon
 14       exhibition because you have said you are unique and a
 15       special service and you have made the point many times
 16       that:  How do we put your Cancon exhibition proposals
 17       in a context that is fair in terms of comparison?
 18  225                  I am looking for your presentation.
 19  226                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Well, in our
 20       submission on page 40, we have a table there that shows
 21       our overall exhibition requirements that go from 40 to
 22       60 in year 5, and we have 50 per cent throughout the
 23       licence term.  We make a comparison with ArTV, Télé des
 24       Arts, that is 47 per cent in year 1 to 55 in year 7, 
 25       as an example.  It's 45 per cent in year 1 to 60 in

42
  1       year 7.  So again, there is some comparison there.
  2  227                  Bravo! is 40 per cent in 1994/95, 50
  3       in 1996/97 and 60 per cent in 1998/99 and their evening
  4       exhibition was 40 per cent.  It moved up to 50 per cent
  5       in their third year.
  6  228                  TVA regulations was 60 per cent
  7       overall and 50 per cent in evening exhibition.
  8  229                  APTN is 70 per cent overall and 70
  9       per cent in evening exhibition.
 10  230                  On the other hand, History
 11       Television, a specialty, is a minimum of 30 per cent
 12       moving up to 50 per cent if they end up with five
 13       million subs, but their evening exhibition is only
 14       33 per cent.
 15  231                  Outdoor Life is 30 per cent in
 16       overall exhibition and 30 per cent in evening.  Yet,
 17       Space:  The Imagination Station, starts off at 25 per
 18       cent in 1997 to 40 per cent, including next year of
 19       2003.  They started off their evening time at 25 and
 20       moved to 35 per cent.
 21  232                  Canal D was 30 per cent in its first
 22       year moving to 32 per cent in 1997/98 with 30 per cent,
 23       moving to 32 per cent in evening exhibition.
 24  233                  Historia is 35 in year 1 moving to
 25       45 in year 6, and the evening 35 in year 1 and 45 in

43
  1       year 6.
  2  234                  So when we look at the whole question
  3       of Canadian content in the overall exhibition, we come
  4       out pretty close to on top of that in comparison to say
  5       Bravo! or certainly History and a long way from Space: 
  6       The Imagination Station on analog discretionary.
  7  235                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  When you
  8       put an analysis, a comparative analysis like that
  9       together, and you are talking about you being an
 10       exceptional service, do you feel that our Cancon
 11       exhibition commitments are a sufficient demonstration
 12       of the uniqueness of your service?
 13  236                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes, I do.
 14  237                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I notice
 15       in your program schedule -- this is from the April 8th
 16       submission, Schedule A for the time being -- it's
 17       called Prime and Peak Time Part Schedule.
 18  238                  Here we have Canadian programs from
 19       six to eight seven days a week.  Correct?
 20  239                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes.
 21  240                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  World
 22       programming from nine to midnight seven days a week.
 23  241                  Just for the record, when you say
 24       "prime" and "peak", it describes this whole chart, what
 25       is prime in your view?  What are the prime hours here?

44
  1  242                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Well, it's 6:00 p.m.
  2       to midnight.  The peak then turns out here in the seven
  3       to nine period as part of the prime period.  The peak
  4       in this case here, we use 8:00 to 9:00 p.m.
  5  243                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Often what
  6       is the case with specialties there are different
  7       reviews, but the TV policy also takes a different look
  8       at what is peak and prime.
  9  244                  Just again, for the record, if I am
 10       clear, the entire evening period of eight to midnight
 11       you are calling prime time?
 12  245                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes.  Go ahead.
 13  246                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.
 14  247                  MR. MARCHANT:  I think we are calling
 15       six to midnight prime or evening and the intention was
 16       to call peak seven to eleven to correspond to the
 17       definition in Building on Success, specifically
 18       paragraphs 37 to 42 of Building on Success where peak
 19       time is so defined and is applied to the major
 20       conventional networks, although not to specialties.
 21  248                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So in
 22       looking at our 50 per cent, it's the evening schedule
 23       of six to midnight when we are going back to the way we
 24       are setting this.  It's 50 per cent six to midnight.
 25  249                  MR. MARCHANT:  It's 50 per cent six

45
  1       to midnight, yes.  It's also 50 per cent in peak as
  2       defined in Building on Success, seven to eleven.
  3  250                  Might I just add why we are
  4       mentioning this?  In Decision 2001-757, WTM was
  5       criticized for not having peak time programming that
  6       was Canadian.  When we went looking for the guidelines
  7       on this, what did we find?  We found Building on
  8       Success.  It said it didn't apply to specialties, but
  9       it appeared to us that 757 had applied it and also
 10       defined peak more narrowly as eight to eleven for
 11       purposes of 757 although not for purposes of Building
 12       on Success.
 13  251                  So I guess we are proposing as a kind
 14       of common ground, if you will, to use the Commission's
 15       definition in 757.  So it would be seven to eleven.  So
 16       50 per cent of peak so defined would be Canadian in the
 17       schedule before you, Commissioner Pennefather.
 18  252                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Does this
 19       apply to all three feeds?
 20  253                  MR. MARCHANT:  Yes.
 21  254                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And if the
 22       Commission deemed it appropriate, would you accept a
 23       modification to your condition of licence regarding
 24       your evening exhibition of 50 per cent to reflect your
 25       commitment to exhibit these programs in prime time?

46
  1  255                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Sorry, I didn't
  2       understand the question.
  3  256                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  You have a
  4       condition of licence regarding the 50 per cent
  5       exhibition of Canadian programming in the evening
  6       period.
  7  257                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Correct.
  8  258                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Would you
  9       also accept a modification to that condition to reflect
 10       your commitment to exhibit these programs, the 50 per
 11       cent, the Canadian programs, in the prime time?
 12  259                  MR. IANNUZZI:  In the 6:00 to
 13       9:00 p.m.?
 14  260                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  No, the
 15       prime time is six to eleven, six to midnight, as you
 16       just described to me.
 17  261                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Right, but the
 18       Canadian programming is laid out from 6:00 p.m. to 9:00
 19       p.m.
 20  262                  MR. MARCHANT:  The answer is yes.
 21  263                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes.
 22  264                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay. 
 23       Thank you.
 24  265                  We are going now to look at Canadian
 25       programming that is listed in your submission of April

47
  1       8th, and I will be using pages 23 to 29, as well again
  2       as the schedule in the program descriptions on pages
  3       30 to 37.  So it may be time for the programming team
  4       to jump in.
  5  266                  First of all a general question. 
  6       There were program changes made here compared to the
  7       submission in June.  Have these changes been reflected
  8       in your budget that was submitted in June?  Do you
  9       expect it will make any change in the allocation to
 10       Canadian programming?
 11  267                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  Let me answer that.
 12  268                  Our budget numbers, we hope, reflect
 13       what the schedule is.  Our numbers are a worst case
 14       scenario.  We have strategies to deal with the
 15       budgeting of our programming.  To make sure that in
 16       case the budgets, as we set them out, are not enough to
 17       fulfil these shows the way we would like to do them, we
 18       have other ways of getting -- we think we have other
 19       strategies to get them done.
 20  269                  But yes, it does reflect the new
 21       programming and I would like to point out that it is a
 22       worst case scenario.
 23  270                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  We will
 24       get back to what you mean by "worst case scenario". 
 25       But you are saying that even with the changes you made,

48
  1       that the budgeting submitted in Schedule 24 which
  2       breaks down the programming for English/French acquired
  3       and in-house produced remains the same?
  4  271                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  I don't know what you
  5       mean by "the same".  It's at $4.1 million.
  6  272                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yes,
  7       that's correct.  The list you have here is $4.1 which
  8       includes your new programs.  In Schedule 24, I think,
  9       English language is something like $3.9, $3.8 million.
 10  273                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  Yes.  The $4.1
 11       reflects the present schedule.
 12  274                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So there
 13       may be some comparisons there that we will have to
 14       check into because I am not sure if they entirely match
 15       up.  But we will come back to that.
 16  275                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  Good.
 17  276                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  My point
 18       is:  You have made changes on April 8th, but we did not
 19       have a new budget in accordance with that, unless this
 20       $4.1 represents a new budget for programming.
 21  277                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  No.  The changes we
 22       made were made within the dollars we had to work with.
 23  278                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay.  I
 24       think you are getting the point.
 25  279                  As we discuss the programs, I picked

49
  1       a few to discuss, but feel free to offer other examples
  2       to the panel.
  3  280                  Again, keep in mind that we would
  4       like to discuss this in terms of what is unique and
  5       what is exceptional in terms of what Canadians are
  6       seeing on the screens.
  7  281                  The point was made earlier that in
  8       revising your schedule, you did find that some of the
  9       Canadian programs previously proposed were in the
 10       system.  So you dropped them.  So it's quite a
 11       challenge, to be sure, that we are clear that what you
 12       have here is nowhere else seen in this country.  That's
 13       the bar you have set.
 14  282                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  We have never said
 15       that these programs are nowhere else.  You have
 16       licensed in your wisdom a science network, but when the
 17       big science story happens CTV News, CBC News will cover
 18       that.  No network can say that everything they do is
 19       only on their network.
 20  283                  So I question where you are coming
 21       from on that one.
 22  284                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Well, from
 23       your submission.
 24  285                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  No.  We said it's
 25       unique and it is unique because of the kinds of choices

50
  1       we make, much like APTN, for example.  APTN has
  2       programs that have appeared on CBC.  It has programs
  3       that have appeared elsewhere, but you have recognized
  4       that it is a unique service because the choices they
  5       make are from the basis of the native peoples.
  6  286                  Well our choices are made from the
  7       basis of multicultural communities and world
  8       communities.
  9  287                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Well, you
 10       understand that where I am getting at is to push a
 11       little harder because we -- I take your point, but I
 12       have to say that Mr. Iannuzzi, today and in previous
 13       submissions and at the public hearings, has certainly
 14       made the point, and I think it behooves us here to
 15       discuss at length why this is a unique programming
 16       service.
 17  288                  Now, yes, there is news everywhere. 
 18       Yes, there are different programs or the same films
 19       perhaps.  What makes it different, what makes it unique
 20       is exactly what I am after.
 21  289                  One of the things to clarify off the
 22       top is in the previous programming concept, you had the
 23       idea of a strategy organized around five different
 24       world regions.  That seems to have gone.  Is that the
 25       case?

51
  1  290                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  Yes, it has.
  2  291                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Can you
  3       tell us why you did that?
  4  292                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  In the last hearing
  5       we had to deal with the subject of the amount of
  6       specific language programming we would cover, and we
  7       made a lot of concessions saying that, for instance, we
  8       would not have more than a certain percentage of
  9       Spanish, not more than a certain percentage of Italian,
 10       not more than a certain percentage of English and
 11       French, of course.
 12  293                  In order to do that, sometimes by
 13       making one night come from one part of the world, Latin
 14       America being a good example, it would skew the numbers
 15       to the point where you couldn't do Latin America
 16       without doing a lot of Spanish programming.
 17  294                  So we have backed off of that in
 18       order to comply with the things that we agreed with in
 19       the last hearing.
 20  295                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Let's
 21       continue on that just for a moment.
 22  296                  Again earlier we talked about the
 23       comment in the Order-in-Council and your agreement,
 24       Mr. Iannuzzi, that this service would connect cultural
 25       communities, which brings me to the programming

52
  1       challenge which you just raised.
  2  297                  Is it Mr. Bernstein?
  3  298                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  Bernstein.
  4  299                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Sorry, no
  5       names, so forgive me if I get mixed up.
  6  300                  Mr. Bernstein, in terms of how you go
  7       about deciding how many multicultural communities you
  8       will reach out to, how do you decide that balance, if
  9       again this Canadian programming section -- and let's
 10       not touch the world programming for the time being --
 11       the Canadian programming section is to be truly
 12       reflective, serve the communities, but also connect
 13       those communities.
 14  301                  What is your programming philosophy
 15       to be sure you have covered those bases, that you have
 16       covered the expectations of the entire country?
 17  302                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  I guess the easy
 18       answer is that's my job, I'm a programmer.  I don't
 19       pretend that I am going to get it 100 per cent correct. 
 20       All I can tell you is that we will attempt to look for
 21       stories that we believe are of interest to all
 22       Canadians, stories that reflect the multicultural
 23       nature of the country, the diversity of the country.
 24  303                  When we think multicultural, it is
 25       every bit as important, the difference in the culture

53
  1       between the outports of Newfoundland and the City of
  2       Vancouver as it is between an Italian community in
  3       Toronto and a Chinese community in Vancouver.
  4  304                  These are all things that we will
  5       have to look at and things we will have to take into
  6       consideration.  The strategies are to look for good
  7       stories first.  If we find good stories that people are
  8       interested in -- that we think people are interested
  9       in, to be fair -- we believe there are good stories in
 10       every community.
 11  305                  We believe once we get on the air and
 12       once we start showing stories from diverse communities,
 13       communities will come to us with stories and hopefully
 14       they will come to us with excellent stories that we
 15       want to put on air and through that process eventually
 16       we are going to hit all the communities.
 17  306                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Do you
 18       have specific programming criteria in place to assure 
 19       a balance amongst the various cultural communities?
 20  307                  MR. APPLEBY:  Madam Commissioner, if
 21       I may?
 22  308                  You could take a step back from the
 23       programming that we have in the Canadian programming
 24       section and look at a vision, if you will.  It will
 25       always come down to the most dramatic stories, but the

54
  1       truth is we are looking for culture clash, cultures
  2       coming together, cultures trying to work things out. 
  3       We live in a country where we all rub shoulders with
  4       different cultures every single day in the workplace,
  5       on the streets, in our neighbourhoods.
  6  309                  So if there is criteria when we take
  7       a step back and look for those stories, we are looking
  8       for stories where the cultures come together and where
  9       there is that clash.  That is what being a Canadian is
 10       all about.
 11  310                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Just to be
 12       a little bit unfair, I think the OiC talked about
 13       connecting not clashing, but I know what you mean.
 14  311                  MR. APPLEBY:  I mean it in the most
 15       positive and the most dramatic and the most difficult
 16       sense.
 17  312                  MR. IANNUZZI:  If I may just for a
 18       moment, Commissioner?
 19  313                  In the area of ethnic broadcasting,
 20       whether it be a station or a network, the Commission
 21       requires that that particular broadcaster break down
 22       the number of languages and the cultures to be served. 
 23       That applies to ethnic broadcasting because that is the
 24       way the Commission has to look at and say:  This is an
 25       ethnic broadcaster, narrow and will be serving X number

55
  1       of communities, X number of cultures.
  2  314                  Rogers in its application for CFMT-2
  3       says:  "My reason for requiring another channel is that
  4       there are more languages and more cultural groups that
  5       are undeserved and therefore...", and so on.  That
  6       satisfied the Commission in order to licence, I
  7       presume.
  8  315                  In the sense of a multicultural
  9       facility, and in a multicultural area, we cannot define
 10       that we will be dealing with X number of languages and
 11       X number of cultures because then we are not different
 12       than an ethnic broadcaster who is compelled to produce
 13       programming in order to serve a particular ethnic
 14       group.  That's what we call ethnic-specific
 15       broadcasting.
 16  316                  In our particular case we deal with
 17       the stories, Canadian stories, that have a
 18       multicultural background to it and the fact that these
 19       are people from around the world that are making up
 20       stories in Canada, whether we go to Lunenburg and find
 21       Canadian stories there, or we go to Nova Scotia and we
 22       get stories that go all the way back to the first Black
 23       settlements in there, or we go to Victoria and we find
 24       that one of the first mayors of Victoria was coloured.
 25  317                  So I mean, there are million stories

56
  1       in a country such as Canada that mainstream
  2       broadcasters that not been showing, but are promising,
  3       once again, that they will be looking for "not ethnic
  4       stories, but multicultural stories".
  5  318                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Well, I
  6       take your point and I am clearly in an area of
  7       programming and, rightly so, a vision.  That's the
  8       starting point because at some point choices are made: 
  9       Editorial choices, programming choices, what's on the
 10       screen.
 11  319                  You have set a bar that this is the
 12       multicultural, the most all-inclusive and unique
 13       service in this country.  So I think it's important
 14       that we find the proof of that in terms of that being
 15       said, not necessarily quotas, but how and who makes
 16       those choices to assure us that that is what is going
 17       to end up on the screen.
 18  320                  If we could take a specific example,
 19       Mr. Bernstein, it might be a little bit instructive as
 20       well.
 21  321                  If we take what I assume is a
 22       flagship show, "WorldJournal", am I correct?
 23  322                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  Yes.
 24  323                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Since it's
 25       on every night, Monday to Friday from seven to eight.

57
  1  324                  This is a news and public affairs
  2       program, as I understand the description.
  3  325                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  It's a public affairs
  4       program.
  5  326                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Where will
  6       the stories come from?  Will they come from foreign
  7       bureaus?  Will they come from foreign news bureaus? 
  8       This is a world journal.  Is this news about what is
  9       going on around the world, or is this news about
 10       Canada?  And how will you ensure that these programs
 11       will really be true alternatives to the foreign news
 12       already in the system?
 13  327                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  Well, frankly thank
 14       you for an easy one.
 15  328                  One of things we don't get in this
 16       country is the opinions and the stories that come from
 17       the places where the stories happen.  Yes, that show is
 18       about world events, not about Canadian events, but that
 19       show is also about what world events mean to Canadians.
 20  329                  So we start off with stories that we
 21       will take from the place, the local stories -- and
 22       "local" meaning the stories that take place where the
 23       events happen.  Obviously the Middle East is a good
 24       example today.  If we were doing a Middle East story
 25       today, we might take a story from Jordanian television

58
  1       and a story from Israeli television.
  2  330                  Canadians don't see that today. 
  3       Canadians get a totally North American point of view
  4       unless you watch BBC World Service, but it's still a
  5       totally western point of view on what is going on in
  6       the Middle East.
  7  331                  We will add to that by putting
  8       together groups of people, panels of Canadians, who
  9       have knowledge or interest in those areas to discuss
 10       a) what those stories mean in general, to give context,
 11       but b) to tell us what they mean here in Canada.  What
 12       should Canadians think about these stories?
 13  332                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So if I am
 14       correct, there is a news package.  It says "assembled a
 15       news package".
 16  333                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  That show will
 17       include -- we are guessing now because some days will
 18       be more, some days will be less -- approximately four
 19       stories per show.  Each story will have between two and
 20       three different points of view.  In other words,
 21       stories from two or three different countries on that
 22       story, to be followed by a discussion about those
 23       stories and what we saw in those stories and what those
 24       stories mean to us.
 25  334                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  In this

59
  1       discussion, who will decide who will be on the panel? 
  2       How will the discussion panel be selected?
  3  335                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  The same way every
  4       other panel show in the world is done.  The producers
  5       of the show go out and look for people who represent
  6       the different sides in the story.
  7  336                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Granted
  8       the same way but, again I repeat, remember we are
  9       looking at this as an exceptional service in Canada.
 10  337                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  Well, what makes it
 11       exceptional --
 12  338                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And a
 13       multicultural service.
 14  339                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  No, but this is
 15       simple.  What makes it exceptional is we wouldn't make
 16       the same choices.  Frankly, Richard Gwynn would not be
 17       on the show, it's that simple, because Richard Gwynn is
 18       on every show in Canada, it seems.  I know what Richard
 19       Gwynn is going to say before Richard Gwynn says it
 20       because I have read it his columns.
 21  340                  We will choose from the communities. 
 22       That's what makes us unique.  We are not going to
 23       choose Richard Gwynn unless it's, frankly, a story
 24       about Ottawa, meaning a local Ottawa story.
 25  341                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So again,

60
  1       if I picked your "WorldJournal" every evening, what I
  2       can expect to see is a news package on a story of the
  3       day, let's say, and you are deliberately going to find
  4       from foreign bureaus coverage of that story.
  5  342                  Do you have agreements already in
  6       place with various foreign bureaus to assure that you
  7       can have access to this programming?
  8  343                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  It's not foreign
  9       bureaus.  It's from local broadcasters.
 10  344                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Local
 11       broadcasters in X, Y, Z countries.
 12  345                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  In those places,
 13       that's correct.
 14  346                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And do you
 15       have those agreements in place?
 16  347                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  We have had meetings
 17       with Reuters, for instance, and they are interested in
 18       providing this kind of material.  We have also had
 19       meetings -- now it goes a long way back -- with ITN and
 20       these are services that collect stories from around the
 21       world.
 22  348                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Again then
 23       there will be a panel discussion and the selection of
 24       the panel you said, perhaps let's say done by yourself,
 25       will be from the communities.

61
  1  349                  What communities?
  2  350                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  Well, for instance,
  3       if we are talking about the Middle East, we might have
  4       a Canadian of Palestinian descent, a Canadian of Jewish
  5       descent, and maybe even a Canadian of Jordanian
  6       descent.  We will choose people who, we would like to
  7       think -- because this country is so diverse, we have
  8       the luxury of having people from almost any community
  9       in the world and the beauty of this is they have a foot
 10       in both places.
 11  351                  So on the one hand, they understand
 12       what is going on wherever the story is taking place,
 13       but on the other hand they also understand Canada and
 14       the Canadian context.  We would like them to bridge
 15       that.
 16  352                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Onto
 17       another program, "Original Voices".  It's still on the
 18       list of your Canadian programs and I believe commented
 19       on in both submissions as an important element.  Yet,
 20       it doesn't appear on the schedule.
 21  353                  Do you still intend to air the show?
 22  354                  MR. APPLEBY:  "Original Voices" is
 23       not a show that will be on the schedule, but it is a
 24       theme that will appear in other shows.  There are no
 25       shows that we have on our schedule that deal with one

62
  1       specific group.  Those groups will be widely
  2       represented in every show, particularly the First
  3       Peoples.
  4  355                  I can give you an example of how that
  5       would be done in a story.  For example, I think it
  6       would help if I can give you the kinds of stories that
  7       we will be treating.
  8  356                  In our series "Eye on Canada", which
  9       is a documentary series that we will be commissioning
 10       programs from independent producers, the theme of
 11       culture clash and cultures confronting and cultures
 12       working together is very much an important theme in
 13       that program.
 14  357                  So one story, for example, that we
 15       have been developing with independent producers is
 16       called "Zone Docks", and I will just describe it to you
 17       briefly so you have an idea of who we might deal with 
 18       native stories in this context.
 19  358                  There is a community, Sioux Lookout,
 20       in Northern Canada.  It has one hospital, and it serves
 21       a geographical area that is about the size of Western
 22       Europe.  There are scores of small communities around
 23       Sioux Lookout, native communities, that depend on Sioux
 24       Lookout, and one hospital there for all their medical
 25       attention.

63
  1  359                  Who are the doctors who are flown up
  2       to this hospital?  They are basically 34 doctors who
  3       come from all across Canada, with roots in many
  4       different countries.  They have never been that far
  5       north before.  They go to this community in Sioux
  6       Lookout and they then are the doctors who are saving
  7       the lives and working with the native communities.
  8  360                  It's a story about saving lives, but
  9       it's also a story about two cultures coming together: 
 10       The doctors who have never been in these communities
 11       before, and the native communities who have never
 12       encountered doctors like these before.
 13  361                  That's the way we would deal with the 
 14       stories.  We would have native stories in any other
 15       shows provided that they fit the dramatic criteria that
 16       makes for good television.  We are television producers
 17       and we want to look for good stories.
 18  362                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  An
 19       interesting last comment.  I don't know if you caught
 20       West Wing last night, but it in fact dealt with the
 21       whole issue of what is good television versus what is
 22       democracy and television involved in democracy.  But we
 23       will just move on.
 24  363                  The intercom program is an
 25       interesting piece of the proposal in Canadian

64
  1       programming.  Let's talk about that a little bit.
  2  364                  Is it a paid airtime arrangement?
  3  365                  MR. IANNUZZI:  No.  This is not paid. 
  4       This again is working with communities.  The major
  5       communities in Canada have within their communities a
  6       structure of organizations and federations that work up
  7       to national organizations, ie. the Canadian
  8       Ethnocultural Council as an example is a national
  9       organization out of Ottawa that speaks on behalf of 90
 10       ethnocultural communities.
 11  366                  We believe that we can give them
 12       access on a weekly basis by developing a program with
 13       them.  It's not unlike working with volunteers in
 14       community programming.  This gives them the access. 
 15       They have the ability of coproducing this type of
 16       material and this type of programming so that on a
 17       rotation basis we will be able to satisfy as many as
 18       20 or 30 of the associations or national federations to
 19       have a program that they can in real time speak to
 20       their entire membership across the country, something
 21       that is not available to them now.
 22  367                  They have access on ethnic programs,
 23       ethnic networks.  Some of these associations actually
 24       do buy time on facilities such as CITY-TV and CJNT in
 25       Montreal in order for them to express their concerns,

65
  1       or to express their views, on certain issues of
  2       national importance, but they have never had national
  3       exposure.  This is what we believe we can do for them.
  4  368                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  It's less
  5       community groups and more associations.
  6  369                  MR. IANNUZZI:  That's right.
  7  370                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And do you
  8       have criteria as to how you will determine who will be
  9       able to use this airtime?
 10  371                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Well, as part of our
 11       outreach program we will be in touch, as we have been,
 12       with a number of national multicultural associations. 
 13       Many of them have supported us as interventions so that
 14       we have been, over the years, in touch with them and,
 15       yes, this is something they would like to do.
 16  372                  Once we do that, we will then have a
 17       criteria to see how many would be willing to do that,
 18       and of the five hours we have per week, or the 250
 19       hours per year, is how we will share this particular
 20       facility with them on a fair basis.
 21  373                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Well, you
 22       got my point, the fair basis.
 23  374                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Absolutely.
 24  375                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Setting
 25       some criteria.  So I gather you will do that at some

66
  1       point.
  2  376                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Well, this comes from
  3       my experience, if I may, in all my years in ethnic
  4       broadcasting and how we had to satisfy as many
  5       communities as possible, and the Commission's records
  6       which show that CFMT in the first decade supplied more
  7       airtime and developed more community programming than
  8       it was licensed for.
  9  377                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And then
 10       you will not be surprised at my next question.  How
 11       will you ensure that such programming abides by
 12       applicable programming codes and regulations?
 13  378                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Well, we will be
 14       responsible as a licensee for all the programming
 15       content.
 16  379                  These programs are being done in
 17       English and, therefore, we have full control on its
 18       contents since this is all pretaped programming the day
 19       before or during the week and then aired on the
 20       Saturday and Sunday time periods.
 21  380                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So you
 22       will be offering access to production studios?
 23  381                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Pardon?
 24  382                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  You will
 25       offer access to production studios.

67
  1  383                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes, yes, both in
  2       Toronto, Ottawa, and in Montreal, the closest --
  3  384                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So it
  4       won't be only in English.
  5  385                  MR. IANNUZZI:  No.  There is French,
  6       as I say, in a portion of that programming we have a
  7       common denominator being that 30 per cent of our
  8       programming, and again in Montreal many of those
  9       communities want to do the programming in French and we
 10       agree with them that that is their right and we will
 11       make that available.
 12  386                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you
 13       for that.
 14  387                  Let's get to the independent
 15       production component of your proposal, in terms of what
 16       is going to be on the air in the Canadian programming.
 17  388                  At the June hearing you confirmed
 18       that you would commission a minimum of 13 new Canadian
 19       documentaries each year for "Eye on Canada" and you
 20       also clarified that overall approximately $39 million
 21       or 18 per cent of gross revenues will be spent on
 22       independent productions over seven years.
 23  389                  Now, do these commitments still
 24       stand?
 25  390                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  Yes, they do.

68
  1  391                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  If so, how
  2       are they incorporated into your programming strategy?
  3  392                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  All of our programs 
  4       other than our news programs -- all of our Canadian
  5       programs other than our news programs are independent.
  6  393                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Other than
  7       the news.  So the in-house production are essentially
  8       the "WorldJournal", the "World Weekend Journal", but
  9       all others are acquired?
 10  394                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  And WTM "News Day".
 11  395                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  A question
 12       on the 18 per cent.  That was in the June discussion on
 13       the basis of a particular carriage proposal, with a
 14       particular revenue result and in questioning, I think,
 15       Mr. Iannuzzi, you were very clear that the 18 per cent
 16       is what you propose.
 17  396                  Again, is the 18 per cent to continue
 18       if, in fact, there is a different revenue result
 19       depending on carriage?  Is it still the same
 20       commitment?
 21  397                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes.  That's the
 22       minimum.  If we get the carriage that we believe this
 23       service should be approved for it, of course, would
 24       represent increased revenues -- and we can discuss that
 25       further, as you had said we would -- that in this

69
  1       particular case we believe that the bulk of that
  2       increase would go to the Canadian independent
  3       production area of our Canadian programming.
  4  398                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So to be
  5       clear, the 18 per cent of gross revenues is the bottom
  6       line in terms of independent production?
  7  399                  MR. IANNUZZI:  That's right.
  8  400                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I would
  9       like to come back to that when we discuss the English
 10       and French component.  Before going there, you also
 11       discussed at the previous hearing a commitment in terms
 12       of regional production, describing it as a reasonable
 13       balance of expenditures on Canadian programming in a
 14       year across other regions in the country.
 15  401                  Does this commitment still stand?
 16  402                  MR. IANNUZZI:  It absolutely does.
 17  403                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Are these
 18       yearly commitments?
 19  404                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes, they are.
 20  405                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Can you
 21       define "reasonable balance of expenditures" in this
 22       commitment?  What does that mean?
 23  406                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Well, that we would
 24       express the use of our funds for that portion of the
 25       independent production would be allocated -- we had a

70
  1       table for that at our last public hearing and it was on
  2       file with the Commission and I don't have it here
  3       before me, but I can certainly get it by the break or
  4       tomorrow morning -- that showed how we would dispense
  5       with our independent production budget, including the
  6       French production that represented 30 per cent of our
  7       combined independent production budget.
  8  407                  It would be 30 per cent for Quebec
  9       and then I think we broke that down for Ontario and
 10       then Western Canada and some for the Maritimes, and so
 11       on, so that we would fairly give the opportunity to
 12       independent producers in these areas.  Why?  Because we
 13       want those stories to come back.  I mean, there are
 14       enough independent producers in Toronto that have been
 15       knocking on our door, at least the ones that believed
 16       we are going to be in business, asking already with
 17       ideas.
 18  408                  But my point is, I am also speaking
 19       to Chris Zimmer in Halifax, we are in contact, and he
 20       keeps telling me that, although he is a film producer,
 21       he can't wait to do some regional stories in
 22       documentary form, and so on.  And we have them out in
 23       Vancouver as well and Manitoba.
 24  409                  So it's in our interest as
 25       businesspeople to spread this to independent producers

71
  1       across the country, but in return not only would be get
  2       good value for our money, but we would get good
  3       stories, and truly reflect the national identity of our
  4       Canadian multicultural society.
  5  410                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yes,
  6       indeed.  In considering the bar you have set for this
  7       service and the points that were made earlier in terms
  8       of different stories on our screens, I would have
  9       thought a very specific commitment in terms of regional
 10       production would be part of this package.
 11  411                  MR. IANNUZZI:  We have that laid out.
 12  412                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  If you
 13       could retable that because my reading of the
 14       transcript, and I could be corrected, as a discussion
 15       of the 30 per cent for Quebec, 30 per cent for French,
 16       and a reasonable balance for regional production, and
 17       beyond a reasonable balance one wonders how --
 18  413                  MR. IANNUZZI:  There is a breakdown
 19       and we will deliver that to you.
 20  414                  I would like to ask Marcel Clémont to
 21       go a little further into regional -- and with his
 22       experience both at the National Film Board and others,
 23       maybe he can fill in on that.
 24  415                  Marcel?
 25  416                  M. CLÉMONT:  Commissaire.  Mes années

72
  1       d'avoir travaillé avec l'Office national du film,
  2       Radio-Canada et comme producteur indépendant dans le
  3       Canada, j'ai eu l'opportunité de travailler avec des
  4       maisons de production, des producteurs indépendants
  5       dans presque toutes les régions du pays.
  6  417                  Je peux constater à ce point-ci que
  7       vis-à-vis la programmation et la conception d'idées des
  8       producteurs francophones hors du Québec, disons, parce
  9       qu'on en a des centaines qui sont très intéressés à
 10       produire pour nous.
 11  418                  Aussi pendant mes démarches dans les
 12       régions du Canada j'ai aussi eu l'opportunité de
 13       travailler avec des diverses cultures de producteurs et
 14       dans chaque cas je pense que je peux indiquer qu'il y
 15       avait des idées, des concepts de production ou il n'y
 16       avait pas de fenêtre de disposition pour ces projets.
 17  419                  Pour nous ce qui est très intéressant
 18       c'est de travailler avec le secteur privé dans le
 19       Canada parce qu'on est trois ou quatre producteurs dans
 20       la programmation qui ont travaillé, ou travaillent
 21       aujourd'hui, avec des producteurs dans presque toutes
 22       les régions du pays, et nous sommes disons experts dans
 23       certaines démarches de contracter et de travailler avec
 24       ces producteurs pour développer des idées pour nous. 
 25       Dans plusieurs cas, des centaines d'idées déjà ont été

73
  1       présentées mais ce qui est important dans notre cas
  2       aussi c'est d'avoir des producteurs qui connaissent nos
  3       buts, notre vision vis-à-vis le réseau de télévision
  4       qu'on propose.
  5  420                  Alors c'est un point dont je voulais
  6       discuter vis-à-vis notre compréhension du secteur privé
  7       et les producteurs indépendants dans notre pays.
  8  421                  CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Merci.
  9  422                  M. IANNUZZI:  Merci, Marcel. 
 10       Monsieur Demers...
 11  423                  CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Juste avant
 12       que nous ne commenciez, monsieur Demers, est-ce que ça
 13       va si je continue en français pour la plupart de votre
 14       panel?
 15  424                  M. IANNUZZI:  Oui.
 16  425                  CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  En effet,
 17       si je peux interrompre M. Iannuzzi, j'étais sur le
 18       point de prendre un peu de réflexion, de faire un peu
 19       de réflexion sur l'aspect de ce projet qui touche,
 20       encore une fois, la Loi sur la radiodiffusion, mais qui
 21       concerne la dualité linguistique de ce pays qui est
 22       aussi dans l'objectif 3(1)(d)(iii).
 23  426                  J'ai des difficultés à comprendre
 24       comment ce service va vraiment servir la population
 25       francophone du Canada, mais j'ai peut-être mal compris

74
  1       la façon dont la programmation sera faite pour les
  2       francophones.
  3  427                  M. Clémont vient de décrire l'aspect
  4       de la production indépendante.  Les idées sont là, sont
  5       connues depuis plusieurs années, je pense.  Mais si
  6       j'ai bien compris, toutes les descriptions de la
  7       programmation étaient les programmations faites en
  8       anglais.
  9  428                  Je vois un horaire qui est identique,
 10       et vous n'avez pas caché ce fait-là que les horaires
 11       sont identiques.  Mais est-ce que les productions
 12       canadiennes sont identiques?  Est-ce que
 13       « WorldJournal » sera produit seulement en anglais et
 14       diffusé aux francophones avec des sous-titres anglais? 
 15       Est-ce que c'est possible que ça puisse être acceptable
 16       et vu comme étant un service exceptionnel au service de
 17       la loi dans ce cas-là?
 18  429                  En prenant cette conclusion j'ai
 19       peut-être mal saisi l'application parce que les budgets
 20       pour la production francophone sont peut-être le quart. 
 21       En effet, monsieur Iannuzzi propose 30 pour cent pour
 22       la production francophone.  Je pense que dans
 23       l'application du 8 avril c'est maintenant 25 pour cent
 24       pour la production francophone.
 25  430                  La programmation qui est ici aussi,

75
  1       qui devrait avoir une connexion avec les citoyens de ce
  2       pays en anglais et en français, est-ce qu'on peut dire
  3       qu'on sert vraiment les auditoires francophones en leur
  4       donnant de la programmation anglaise sous-titrée en
  5       français?
  6  431                  Il n'y a pas de problème pour le
  7       « world programming ».  On comprend très bien et on va
  8       arriver à ça, mais c'est le côté « Canadian
  9       programming ».  J'ai eu l'impression qu'un « feed » aux
 10       francophones de la programmation anglaise sous-titrée
 11       en français ne sera pas exactement le service
 12       exceptionnel qu'on peut viser dans ce contexte-là.
 13  432                  Est-ce que j'ai mal compris la façon
 14       dont vous allez servir les auditoires francophones?
 15  433                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Madam Commissioner, if
 16       I may before my good friend Rock jumps in here on that
 17       particular matter?
 18  434                  You are not the first one that always
 19       comes to the point and says:  Well, in the duality, how
 20       do you intend to serve this?
 21  435                  The fact is that Canada is a
 22       multicultural society and there is a Multiculturalism
 23       Canada Act.  There isn't an English one and a French
 24       one, there is  one, and we tend to look at, as we do
 25       with the Broadcasting Act, the Multiculturalism Canada

76
  1       Act and the rest of it.  So that when we are talking
  2       about the service, we are talking about one licence
  3       with two services within this particular licence.
  4  436                  Now, we are saying that both services
  5       are identical, except for maybe some time shifts,
  6       depending on how it goes, but they are identical, an
  7       example being when, of course, you look at our
  8       presentation and all the program schedule is there in
  9       English, and if we would have had the time and
 10       translated them into French, then it would have had a
 11       sort of French feel to it.  But the fact is that these
 12       are Canadian stories.
 13  437                  In fact, they are, I just remembered. 
 14       We did get them in in time, getting French translation
 15       in Ottawa is not easy.  The fact is that if we take one
 16       particular story called "Mainstreets", and we call for
 17       producing 13, 20, whatever the number is, and 30 per
 18       cent of those -- when I say 25 it is 25 in the Province
 19       of Quebec, 5 in francophone areas outside.  So we are
 20       talking 30 per cent a whole.
 21  438                  Therefore, 30 per cent of the
 22       programming would be produced -- the English ones are
 23       produced as "Mainstreets" and the other ones are
 24       produced as "Rue Principale", but they will produced
 25       again -- the storylines maybe are the same, the type is

77
  1       the same, but they are produced in Quebec by
  2       independent producers under that particular label.  We
  3       then subtitle those so that on the English network
  4       during that series coming up in prime time will be a
  5       program called "Rue Principale", dialogue in French,
  6       interviews in French, or what have you, and the
  7       subtitling is in English.  I mean, this is a bilingual
  8       country.  If people can't understand the language, they
  9       can at least understand the written words.
 10  439                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I
 11       understand your point.  You understand what I am
 12       talking about in terms of production values.  This is
 13       television, as your colleague said earlier.  Are you
 14       saying that "Mainstreets", as an example, will be
 15       produced originally both in French and in English?
 16  440                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Absolutely.
 17  441                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Is that
 18       the case for "WorldJournal" as well?
 19  442                  MR. IANNUZZI:  For "WorldJournal", on
 20       those particular areas where there are stories that
 21       will emanate out of Montreal, we will -- and you can
 22       correct me there -- have people from the communities
 23       who are French speaking.  So there would be a balance.
 24  443                  I mean, no one can tailor this to
 25       being precise, of saying three times a week will be in

78
  1       French and four times will be -- it's as the stories
  2       develop.
  3  444                  I mean, we have to give the news and
  4       information department the flexibility that says:  What
  5       it is the best for the story of today?  Where can we
  6       get the right people to give that Canadian perspective
  7       that is there?  We are dealing out of Montreal.  We are
  8       dealing here and producing out of Ottawa and in Toronto
  9       and eventually hope to do Vancouver as well.
 10  445                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  What would
 11       be helpful?  Because I must say I still am concerned
 12       that we are not getting a clear enough picture of the
 13       francophone service, if you follow me.
 14  446                  If I am a French-speaking Canadian
 15       and I want to watch this Canadian programming component
 16       and I am looking at shows which are produced in the
 17       English-language and subtitled on my main service --
 18       let's say I am in a situation where I have both the
 19       majority language feed and the minority language feed,
 20       and we will get to that later -- on the majority
 21       language feed, am I seeing my shows produced in my
 22       language?
 23  447                  I think you understand where I am
 24       getting at there.  It's hard to imagine that the
 25       schedule will be as full and as visionary at 25 per

79
  1       cent or 30 per cent of the production budget if that is
  2       to be the case.
  3  448                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  All of our shows, all
  4       of our Canadian shows, are either French or English.
  5  449                  In other words, if there is a strand
  6       called "Mainstreets", it is either "Mainstreets" or
  7       "Rue Principale".  The numbers of 25 per cent for
  8       Quebec and 5 per cent for other Franco-Canadians bring
  9       it up to 30 per cent.  Those are minimums and, frankly,
 10       in today's financial world and budgetary world and
 11       programming, we would be crazy not to do actually more
 12       French programming because it's less expensive to us.
 13  450                  So what we are guaranteeing is that a
 14       minimum for that programming, 30 per cent, will be in
 15       French.  Thirty per cent of the strand of "Rue
 16       Principale" will be French.  Seventy per cent, as a
 17       maximum, will be English, but when you are watching the
 18       show that is done from the Main Street in Kingston, it
 19       will probably be in English.  The show that is done
 20       from the Main Street in Shawinigan will most likely be
 21       done in French.
 22  451                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I
 23       understand that point.  To be clear, it would be
 24       helpful if you could submit to us a program outline
 25       which, from a francophone's point of view, looked at

80
  1       this where there would be French programming, French
  2       original programming.
  3  452                  It could be the same schedule, but
  4       just tell us how that is going to work in a clearer
  5       fashion because you can understand, and you said,
  6       Mr. Iannuzzi, that you are not surprised at my
  7       question.
  8  453                  MR. IANNUZZI:  No.
  9  454                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I think it
 10       would help us.
 11  455                  MR. IANNUZZI:  It's one of those
 12       things that you need a schedule in front of you.
 13  456                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Well, we
 14       have a schedule.  My point is the schedule doesn't tell
 15       us about the way the shows for francophones would be
 16       produced.
 17  457                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes, we will table
 18       that, but before we do, I had promised Rock -- he has
 19       to get off his chest.
 20  458                  So Rock, go ahead.
 21  459                  MR. DEMERS:  It's very little that I
 22       had to say.
 23  460                  Je voulais dire que j'ai déjà à mon
 24       bureau de nombreux projets qui ne pourront exister que
 25       si World Télémonde existe et ce sont des projets qui me

81
  1       sont amenés soit par des autochtones, soit par des gens
  2       qui ont émigré d'Amérique Latine, soit pas des
  3       Asiatiques, soit par une organisation qui regroupe une
  4       quinzaine de communautés culturelles à Montréal et qui
  5       ont déjà des piles de programmation ou de propositions
  6       à offrir.  C'est ce que je voulais indiquer lorsque
  7       j'ai demandé la parole tout à l'heure.
  8  461                  Mais suite à ce qui vient de se dire,
  9       je trouve très intéressant la dernière question que
 10       vous posez parce que c'est aussi la première question
 11       que j'ai posée lorsqu'on m'a présenté ce projet, et
 12       j'ai voulu avoir l'assurance que de Montréal le
 13       bulletin de nouvelles, par exemple, auquel on se
 14       réfère, il y aura un certain nombre d'émissions qui
 15       origineront, disons, d'une perspective francophone
 16       canadienne du pays qui seront intégrées dans l'ensemble
 17       des émissions qui seront faites dans d'autres parties
 18       du pays.
 19  462                  S'il n'y avait pas eu une réponse
 20       très positive à ça encore là, comme j'ai dit tout à
 21       l'heure, je ne serais pas ici parce que je vois
 22       Télémonde dans ce qu'il a de plus spécifique et
 23       d'unique en ce fait qu'il doit absolument contribuer à
 24       cimenter les différentes communautés canadiennes.
 25  463                  Comme beaucoup de citoyens

82
  1       francophones et anglophones, j'en ai marre de cette
  2       dualité qui sépare notre pays et pour moi Télémonde va
  3       être exceptionnel en ce sens qu'il va offrir un service
  4       qu'aucune autre télévision, quelle soit généraliste ou
  5       spécialiste, n'offre actuellement à l'ensemble de la
  6       population canadienne.
  7  464                  CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Merci,
  8       monsieur Demers.
  9  465                  J'ai une toute dernière question.
 10  466                  I have one last question and perhaps
 11       you could come back in the morning, it's a numbers
 12       question, and then we will go onto world programming in
 13       the morning.
 14  467                  Just to clarify the number of
 15       original hours during the broadcast day for the English
 16       service and for the French service as opposed to
 17       repeats.  Obviously it's a schedule in which there are
 18       repeats.
 19  468                  We did have a little different
 20       addition from yours in terms of how many original hours
 21       we now have after the changes in April.  So could you
 22       come back to us with a clarification on how many
 23       original hours we will have in Canadian programming?
 24  469                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  Yes.
 25  470                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  We

83
  1       certainly have a number of points we are going to come
  2       back to, but I think dinner calls for all of us.
  3  471                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
  4       Commissioner Pennefather.
  5  472                  We will resume at 9:30 a.m. tomorrow
  6       morning.
  7  473                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Thank you,
  8       Mr. Chairman.
  9       --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1858 to
 10           resume on Friday, May 10, 2002 at 0930 / L'audience
 11           est ajournée à 1858 pour reprendre le vendredi
 12           10 mai 2002 at 0930