Hull, Quebec / Hull (Québec)
--- Upon resuming on Monday, May 28, 2001 at 0900 / L'audience reprend le lundi 28 mai 2001 à 0900
6674 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour, mesdames et
messieurs. Nous sommes maintenant prêts à commencer la
Phase III de cette audience.
6675 We are now ready to proceed to
Phase III of the hearing. Good morning to all.
6676 Madame la Secrétaire, s'il vous
plaît.
6677 MS POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chair.
6678 As you are probably aware, we are
going to start with No. 5 in your agenda.
6679 The first four interventions have
been moved to the end of the process.
6680 Nous allons débuter avec le numéro 5
parce que les quatre premiers numéros ont été déménagés
à mardi en fin de journée.
6681 I would like to call Mr. John
Boudrias. Mr. Boudrias is not here.
6682 Native American Journalists
Association.
6683 Every intervener has ten minutes
maximum.
6684 Thank you.
INTERVENTION
6685 MS O'BOMSAWIN: Good morning. Excuse
my nervousness.
6686 Hi. My name is Angie O'Bomsawin.
I am here today for -- sorry about that -- Mary Annette
Pember, for the Native American Journalists
Association.
6687 THE CHAIRPERSON: You shouldn't be
nervous. It's Monday morning and we are very patient.
6688 MS O'BOMSAWIN: Okay. I am here to
go over bringing up -- I am so sorry, guys.
--- Pause
6689 MS O'BOMSAWIN: Okay.
6690 My name is Angie O'Bomsawin. I am
from a small community named Odanak along the
St. Francis River. We are about 350 members within the
community and 1,450 off community.
6691 I have this dream, I guess, amongst
all young natives. When I first moved to my
community -- I was born and raised in Ottawa -- at the
age of 12 I went through many stages of feeling
disconnected and feeling as if I didn't know where I
belonged coming from a city and being moved into a
community where we were now surrounded by borders and
holding a feeing of segregation and that was very scary
for me. I was very nervous of how my own people would
react to me and -- I am so sorry -- how my own
community would react to me from being raised in the
city and not being raised on the reservation, and as
well the fear of not knowing who I was and feeling
inferior to my neighbours around me.
6692 When I started to spend more and more
time with members of the community and Elders, I
started realizing that this disconnected feeling that I
was feeling for so long in my life was that of not
knowing who I was and where exactly I was coming from.
6693 At the age of 14 I was moved to a
community called Kanawake along the shore of Montreal.
Again, I held great fear coming from a community of 320
then going to one over 8,000. I was very scared on how
they would react to me, especially because my community
was French-based and this community was English-based.
There was a lot of rivalry between our own family
members and brothers and sisters and blood.
6694 So I spent a long time trying to
figure out what it was that we needed as native people
to take away this feeling of disconnection and to bring
us together as a group and not feeling so alone and so
scared of my own people as well as outsiders.
6695 I spent a long time thinking what the
key was, and when it came down to it I realized that we
needed some kind of link to bring us together as youth
and as Elders and all members to get answers to the
questions that I needed answers for. I needed answers
for who I was and where I was going in life and that
sort of thing.
6696 Spending the time in Kanawake and
participating in festivals and traditional ceremonies
and things that helped me start to understand the
beauty behind my culture and the beauty behind myself
as an aboriginal woman. I wanted to do something that
could make me feel that I was making the link easier
for the youth that didn't have the power, the strength
to go off reservation and learn what they needed to
learn to bring back to the communities.
6697 At the age of 14, I did some
volunteer work and raised money to travel across
Belgium and France and offer cultural teachings about
our people to help break the ignorance on both behalf,
us being ignorant to the French culture and themselves
being ignorant to us.
6698 I learned a great deal up there.
I learned that through voice and through standing up
and speaking and linking with other people, I could
learn not only more about myself, but what we needed as
a community to rise above.
6699 In the end it came down to media, it
came down to coming down with something that was strong
enough based that could help my community not feel so
alone, that could help all communities feel more as
one.
6700 I put my focus into my education to
bring myself to a point where I can do just that, that
I can help members of my community be recognized, help
members of my community have answers to their questions
and not feel as if nobody was listening or that they
were on their own, that there are many communities out
there that, through radio, through television, through
broadcasting could join together.
6701 My focus in the end will be film as
at the age of 22 I hope to work with a lot of different
ways of bringing us together and having what we need to
be satisfied. Kanawake is about one hour and a half
alongside of my community Odanak where my father is
from, and they had never heard of us or thought my
nation had never existed. They thought we had been
cleared out in 1972, I think -- don't quote me on the
date.
6702 It's very hard for me to try to sit
here and make you understand my focus, and make you
understand what it is that I am trying to do as a
22-year-old youth. I just know that growing up and
moving from city, from reservation to reservation,
I have seen native people from all walks of life who
are walking around in a form of disconnection that is
hurtful, that is very painful as a people, where at one
second we stand with pride, the next second we stand
with fear and shame just because of what is going on
around us and our surroundings.
6703 In communities we have so much going
on in both negative and positive aspects that it's hard
to situate yourself in a place where you are always
feeling proud of where you are coming from and who you
are. There is so much that takes that idea away from
you. At times you feel really proud of who you are and
at other times you really just think it would be easier
if you weren't raised native, if you were just like
everybody else.
6704 My biggest fear moving back to the
reservation was being pointed out and being segregated
and the fear of not knowing. I have a little younger
brother and sister and there is so much in my community
being that we are so small in numbers that has been
lost and that will probably, because there is nobody
out there to want to keep it within my own community
that has been lost and it's not there.
6705 I just want to make it easier for my
children to grow up having that pride from day one,
holding that pride from day one, not growing up having
to question it and walk around and say, "Where are all
the natives at?". Walking around the city we are so
blocked by multicultural areas that it's so hard to
know where our brothers and sisters are and I have seen
so much that at times, when I first came to the city
and talking politics and going to Algonquin College and
learning about the Canadian government and world
governments, things that at points I would go home and
break down in tears and cry and cry and cry because I
couldn't understand where I was suppose to stand behind
all this, where I was supposed to be with all this.
6706 I want something that can make it
easier for our children to be proud of who they are and
to know that there is so much positive going on out
there, and there are so many native people working so
hard for the future of our culture and for the future
of our traditions and for our heritage. In my
community my language is gone. So much is lost and I
look at communities as strong as Kanawake and I say to
myself why can't we have that? Where did we go wrong?
6707 And I think that having something
that could link stronger communities with weaker
communities and bringing something that could maybe
give the people that sit back in my community and go,
"Well, we are almost gone, let's just give up", if they
could just see that they are not alone and that, you
know, way out in Adanak, along the St. Francis River,
there are millions of native people out there that have
this same goal and have a dream for all of us to stand
as one and to be heard from every community.
6708 And I guess what I'm trying to say is
I think that this -- I know that through media we can
build a link between communities that feel lost and
feel like they have no power and feel like, you know,
there's no hope, by bonding up with other communities
that hold the strength and that have been working and
have the numbers to pull through in these areas, as
tradition and heritage and language and culture.
6709 And, you know, preservation of the
culture is a goal for me, especially as the community,
it's almost gone. And my little brother and sister, by
the time they get to be my age, or, you know, by the
time I have my children, if it's not for youth like me
and people who are trying to reach this goal together
and bring these communities together so that we can
lean on each other in times of need and really, you
know, make the fight a lot stronger, it's such an
importance to me to feel like I can do something like
that, to feel that I cannot make the struggle so hard
for the younger ones, so that, you know, we can grow up
and learn our traditions and not be ashamed of who we
are and to know that we have many, many, many people
standing behind us and to offer something to make that
easy for them to assess. As for now it's so hard.
6710 MS POIRIER: Excuse me, could you
please conclude? You're getting over the 10 minutes
allowed.
6711 MS O'BOMSAWIN: Oh.
6712 MS POIRIER: Thank you.
6713 MS O'BOMSAWIN: That's it? I'm
sorry. Thank you very, very much.
6714 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner
Pennefather has a few questions for you.
6715 MS O'BOMSAWIN: Okay.
6716 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Good
morning.
6717 MS O'BOMSAWIN: Good morning.
6718 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You can
relax. It's okay.
6719 MS O'BOMSAWIN: I can relax. I'm not
on the spot.
6720 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You said
that your name was O'Bomsawin.
6721 MS O'BOMSAWIN: It is O'Bomsawin,
yes.
6722 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I can
understand why film might be of interest to you. And
you were very eloquent and we did hear very clearly
what you are bringing to us as the impact media has on
disconnection, on feeling of cultural value and
importance of yourself, importance of voice.
6723 The only thing I wanted to ask you on
is, indeed, you mentioned film and television, and they
are very powerful media. What, in your estimation, is
the importance of a radio media outlet? In line with
what you were saying, where does radio fit
particularly?
6724 MS O'BOMSAWIN: Well, when I speak of
media, I mean media in all walks of life. Radio is just
as powerful as TV, if not stronger because you have to
focus on the words, you have to focus on what's being
said. There's nothing to babysit the mind or take your
attention elsewhere.
6725 As well, radio is a way to offer
services that sometimes TV really can't offer, in terms
of service lines and in terms of surveys. And TV is
something that you more sit back and take in; radio is
more interactive, it's more something said and you can,
you know, play with phones, it's so much more -- I'm
looking for the word -- for lack of a better term --
easy action. It's very more --
6726 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Yeah,
two-way.
6727 MS O'BOMSAWIN: -- commute, you know,
you can kind of go back and forth with it.
6728 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Good. No,
I understand.
6729 MS O'BOMSAWIN: And it's a lot
easier, especially with communities -- not all our
communities are -- I know in Kanawake, we don't have
cable and, you know, so radio is something that is
accessible, more accessible, to all different classes
when it comes to native communities.
6730 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you
very much for those observations and for coming here
this morning. We appreciate seeing you here and
hearing what you have to say to us. Thank you.
6731 MS O'BOMSAWIN: Thank you.
6732 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you,
Madam President.
6733 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms
O'Bomsawin. I must say that despite your declared
nervousness, you're more articulate than most of us at
this time on Monday morning. Thank you.
6734 MS O'BOMSAWIN: Thank you.
6735 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary,
please.
6736 MS POIRIER: I would then ask Colleen
Thomas to come forward.
INTERVENTION
6737 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Ms
Thomas.
6738 MS THOMAS: Good morning. I'm
nervous, as well. I have never done this before.
6739 My name is Colleen Thomas. I'm a
Cree woman from Witchekan Lake Reserve in Saskatchewan.
I was born there and lived there for the first four
years of my life. And I also experienced the
relocation, I guess, to a different area of
Saskatchewan.
6740 And where I moved to was La Ronge and
they have probably one of the largest reserves in
Canada. They have like 10,000 registered Indians and
not including the non-status Indians that they have
there.
6741 When I moved there, I moved to a
community that they spoke a different dialect of Cree.
They made fun of my dialect of Cree and I lost my
language because of that. And I think aboriginal radio
could help in highlighting the similarities between our
nations because we have a lot of similarities. Our
values are the same, we focus on our children in the
same way -- like, we value family. The similarities in
the way we view the world. Like, we view the world in
a circle, with the youth, the elders, the women and the
men, and that's the way aboriginal people, indigenous
people, all over the world, that's where they come
from.
6742 Growing up what I learned was that
aboriginal people were savages. That's what I learned
in history. And growing up I was abused in any way you
can imagine. Like, I had no faith in anything, I had
no trust in anything, and it really, really was hard
for me to even trust the government because I went to
the government when I was 16 and asked for help and I
was turned down in three separate occasions from
Children's Aid. Because I asked for help for myself
and for my sisters.
6743 And I didn't know the help that was
available from the aboriginal community. I didn't know
and I think radio could help highlight what resources
our aboriginal people all over the nation have. And to
inform the children because I'm here and I really want
to focus on the youth because the youth don't know.
We, as adults, don't tell our youth, we don't inform
them about anything. We treat them as non-people. But
they are people. They hurt, and they often hurt more
than we do. And I think if we can give them
information that they can access on their own, they
would have more options and they wouldn't have this
despair that we see.
6744 I mean, you have seen aboriginal
youth in the media. All you have seen is they have no
hope. And it's true because I have a nephew, his name
is Daniel, and what he's learning in his life, he
doesn't like being Cree. He would rather be a Metis
person because the Metis people stood up for
themselves. They said what they want for themselves.
6745 And we don't have any heros, as
indigenous people and I think aboriginal radio could
bring that to the home in a different way that
television can't. Because growing up I had heard about
this Keewatin radio from Yellowknife. And the way I
heard about it was the lady moved to La Ronge and she
was so proud of who she was, I always wanted to be like
her because she spoke -- she didn't speak just to
adults, she spoke to young people, too.
6746 And I was really, really amazed that
there was a Cree woman. And she was from La Ronge and
she moved to the north and she went to host this
program and I was just amazed that a Cree woman could
do that. And this was like in the seventies,
late-seventies.
6747 And I guess all I want to say is that
radio -- cause growing up as a child I had a radio in
my own room. And I listened to the radio a lot and I
always wished I could hear her speak on the radio, and
I never did.
6748 I think a lot of Aboriginal kids, we
take television for granted as people. They don't have
televisions, they get pound off, they don't have
televisions. They do have radios and they are cheap
ones. I mean those are cheap and they can't be. --
they don't really get a lot of money for them pounding
them off.
6749 So, I think it's also -- it would be
useful in connecting our communities, like the speaker
before me said, because in highlighting our
similarities we would become -- we could become proud
of who we are as Aboriginal people and I know who
Aboriginal people are.
6750 I know that now and I learned that
all after the age of 20. I never learned that before
the age of 20, I didn't know what Aboriginal people
were, I didn't like being who I was before the age of
20, and when I started to learn who I was after the age
of 20, I was really amazed that Aboriginal people, the
values and what they held and how strong it was, but
nobody told me that as a child. I had to go and seek
it as an adult and I think it's important we inform our
youth through any media that we can and the way it's
accessible to them too.
6751 I mean, I'm a Web designer and that's
what I do. I'm doing that as well through the Web
because it's accessible, but I think any media that we
can to inform our youth about the options that they
have is important and that is all I have to say.
6752 Thank you for listening to me.
6753 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms
Thomas. Commissioner Noël.
6754 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you, Ms
Thomas, for your -- I'm looking for the English word
and it doesn't come up, that's Monday morning -- I will
say témoignage in French.
6755 So, what I gather from what you told
us this morning is that for you the radio is an
economical way of building some pride in your
communities. Is that the main essence of your message?
6756 MS THOMAS: Yes.
6757 COMMISSIONER NOËL: And a sense of
sentiment d'appartenance, a sense of belonging?
6758 MS THOMAS: Yes, affiliation to more
than just yourself to a broader scale because we don't
often -- in our communities, we don't see ourselves as
part of a larger community; we only see ourselves as
part of a local, and very segregated in our local as
well.
6759 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you very
much.
6760 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms
Thomas and your colleague, and we appreciate your
coming to speak to us this morning.
6761 MS. THOMAS: Thank you.
6762 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madame la
Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.
6763 MS POIRIER: Thank you. I would now
ask Rooney Productions.
INTERVENTION
6764 MR. ROONEY: Madam Chair, members of
the Commission.
6765 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. It's
Mr. Rooney?
6766 MR. ROONEY: Yes. If you didn't
indulge me, I would like to begin with a little
parable.
6767 Some years ago, a group of Crees
visited a Mohawk community to play an important
lacrosse game. The national Aboriginal championship
with the two best teams in the land. Now, the night
before the big game the Mohawks, as befits a host, put
on a big feast for their guests. And, because they
were an agricultural community, to show the generosity
of their bounty they had to put on a spread that was
far more than the assembled company could possibly eat.
6768 The Crees, on the other hand, were
from a hunter\gatherer culture and to them it was an
insult to their hosts to leave any food uneaten.
6769 So, you can imagine the picture.
Every time the Crees cleared their plates the Mohawks
were forced to serve the more food. They were the
Crees, stuffed to the gills, forcing themselves to eat
more and more, thinking to themselves: "These Mohawks
are trying to embarrass us by giving us more food than
we can possibly eat."
6770 Meanwhile, the Mohawks are thinking:
"These goddamn Crees are trying to embarrass us by
eating everything we put in front of them so they can
show just how stingy we are."
6771 Well, of course, the next day, with a
bunch of over-indulged players, the quality of the
lacrosse game left much to be desired. But this story
illustrates that cultural misunderstanding can exist
not only between Aboriginal people and us, but also
between different Aboriginal people themselves. And
the national Aboriginal radio network would certainly
go a long way towards dispelling some of these
misunderstandings.
6772 Now, I am not of Aboriginal decent
and so I don't feel qualified to speak on behalf of
Aboriginal cultures. However, there are a couple of
things I would like to share with you on that issue.
6773 Ten years ago, I was asked to produce
a Concert for Indigenous Restoration at Toronto's Royal
Alex theatre. It was part of a three-day conference on
the environment that featured elders, chiefs and shamen
from the Amazon to the Arctic. This event required a
funding mix of private and public monies along with
ticket sales and I thought it was appropriate to apply
to the Ontario Ministry of Multiculturalism.
6774 I tendered an application and I was
duly telephoned by a Ministry project officer who told
me that she couldn't possibly consider our proposal
because it was not multicultural it was just "Indian".
I responded by saying "Oh, so that's your problem with
these people.". But she became quite nervous -- I
mean, bureaucrats often do become nervous when you
suggest that they might be making the wrong decision --
and she asked, defensively. "What do you mean?"
6775 I said: "Well, if you put a Haida, a
Mohawk, a Cree, an Obibway and a Mi'kmaq in a room
together, I think they would consider that quite a
multicultural gathering."
6776 Needless to say we got the funding.
6777 But my point is that there are a lot
of traditional cultures in this country that do not
have adequate access to the public sphere through our
airwaves.
6778 My second point about the culture is
that over the years I have had the good fortune to work
with many of this country's leading artists, including
Thomson Highway, Buffy Ste. Marie, Graham Greene, Susan
Aglukark, Tom Jackson and many others. Not only do
these people represent important role models for
Aboriginal people but I am sure you would agree that
they have enriched all of us with their significant
contributions to mainstream Canadian culture. The fact
that they managed to do so in the face of what must
have seemed insurmountable odds at the start of their
respective careers speaks to the tenacity of their
artistic vision.
6779 Through its proposed national network
Aboriginal Voices Radio offers a significant stage from
which all Aboriginal artists will have the opportunity
to speak to us and to one another.
6780 Why do we need a national network?
Until now, Aboriginal radio has been restricted to
local community stations serving their local
communities. But there have been a marked demographic
shift in this country's Aboriginal populations. The
artists I have just mentioned all had to move to our
cities to pursue their artistic careers. It is
estimated that as many as 70% of Canada's native
peoples now live in urban centres. The last census
reported that 38,000 of them live in the National
Capital region alone. And I'm sure they don't all work
for the AFN and the Federal government. I am sure that
when the current census is completed we will find that
number has increased significantly.
6781 It has often been said in defense of
the CBC that it reflects the country back upon itself.
Well, I for one get a substantial amount of my
information and news from listening to CBC Radio and I
think it does a sterling job, but we still need a
broadcast environment that truly does reflect the
nature of this country in all its aspects. Otherwise,
we would not need a broadcasting commission.
6782 Now, this Commission has already
recognized the importance of wider Aboriginal access to
media by granting Aboriginal Voices Radio licenses in
Toronto and Calgary. But if they are to make a real
contribution to the palette of available information,
they need an Ottawa license. After all, this is the
seat of government, it is the headquarters of
Aboriginal political leadership. It's where our policy
makers live and work. And I would suggest that, with
the controversial changes being proposed in the Indian
Act, Ottawa is an important venue in which to hear the
public Aboriginal voice.
6783 The recent Supreme Court Corbière
decision gave Aboriginal people living off-reserve the
right to participate in the political life of their
local community. But how can they do that without
information? An Aboriginal radio network serving the
Aboriginal communities would be able to fulfil that
need.
6784 But apart from the national sport of
politics, there are other important issues like
diabetes, AIDS, substance abuse etc. that Aboriginal
media can address. A national network would clearly be
in a position to provide quality programming on these
sorts of subjects -- the kind of quality that is beyond
the financial wherewithal of small community radio
stations.
6785 The final report of the Royal
Commission on Aboriginal Peoples stressed the
importance of public awareness in advancing issues and
concerns of Aboriginal Peoples. It also said that this
could be more effectively achieved by a greater
representation of Aboriginal people working in the
media.
6786 People making this application are
not simply looking to work in the media they are
looking to own and operate. And that's a significant
distinction.
6787 As a former Clerk of the Privy
Council told me in an interview last week, the primary
purpose of good government is to share the wealth and
to share the opportunity.
6788 I would like to conclude this morning
with a quote from the English author Philip Pullman:
"All the history of human life
has been a struggle between
wisdom and stupidity. The rebel
angels, the followers of wisdom,
have always tried to open minds.
The authority has always tried
to keep them closed".
6789 Now, I am sure it's not the raison
d'être of this authority to keep minds closed, but it
has come to my attention that there is a private
broadcaster at these hearings that has pledged in its
own application to significantly fund Aboriginal Voices
Radio.
6790 I am sure you will recognize the
value of Aboriginal Voices Radio and grant them their
Ottawa licence, but if you truly have the courage of
your convictions, you will also grant the licence
request of this private broadcaster so that these rebel
angels can truly fly.
6791 Thank you for your patience.
6792 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Rooney.
6793 I would hope that we don't have our
minds closed, but if they are a presentation such as
yours and those we heard this morning should open them
a larger crack.
6794 MR. ROONEY: Thank you.
6795 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for
coming.
6796 Madame la Secrétaire, s'il vous
plaît.
6797 MS POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chair.
6798 The next intervention will be
presented by Ted Montour Communications.
INTERVENTION
6799 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning,
Mr. Montour.
6800 MR. MONTOUR: Good morning.
6801 Madam Chair, Commissioners, Madam
Secretary General, Counsel, Commission staff. I thank
you for the opportunity to appear before you this
morning.
6802 I also want to give thanks and
acknowledgement to the people of the Algonquin Nation
in whose territory we meet today.
6803 Aboriginal Voices Radio has placed
itself in a unique position in the Canadian radio
broadcasting universe, as a matter of both mission and
necessity. I want to talk today about the community
and the audiences to be served by an AVR broadcasting
outlet in the Hull/Ottawa region.
6804 As I indicated in my original letter
to the Commission, I have worked as a communications
and public policy consultant in the National Capital
for some 15 years now. I have been an advisor to
Aboriginal and non-aboriginal clients, First Nation
governments and businesses large and small.
6805 Prior to beginning my consulting
practice, I spent ten years in the federal public
service as a program and policy advisor and a manager.
I have also served two terms as the President of the
Board of Directors of the Odawa Native Friendship
Centre in Ottawa.
6806 A considerable proportion of my work
has been with the media in the National Capital, both
Parliamentary and otherwise, as well as with
journalists and media outlets elsewhere in Canada and
the United States.
6807 One of my most recent posts was as
public and community relations advisor for the Ottawa
Rebel professional lacrosse club of the National
Lacrosse League. I am also a volunteer minor lacrosse
coach and media advisor to minor, junior and senior
lacrosse organizations.
6808 I believe it is essential for
Aboriginal Voices Radio to have a present in the
Ottawa/Hull market for several reasons.
6809 The Aboriginal community here has
grown and diversified to a considerable extent in the
years since I first arrived in 1975. What was once a
relatively small community composed primarily of
employees of the national aboriginal organizations,
public servants and students now numbers well in excess
of 30,000 and includes technology specialists,
professionals and entrepreneurs.
6810 I have had the opportunity to be
involved in every round of Aboriginal constitutional
discussions since 1985 and I can say with the authority
of that experience that Ottawa/Hull and Canada will
benefit significantly from an Aboriginal perspective on
politics and current affairs and, yes, I am implying
that that perspective is not presented consistently or
objectively by the mainstream Canadian media.
6811 This is not to say that an Aboriginal
broadcast media outlet is needed for balance,but rather
that the media outlets in the Capital and Canada have
been less than diligent in seeking that balance, and
indeed living up to the relevant terms of their CRTC
licences.
6812 The Aboriginal community here will
also, I am certain, take every possible advantage of
the opportunity to produce original local programming
for both our own local consumption and for distribution
across the AVR network, reaching back to our various
home territories.
6813 We can look forward to the growth of
an Aboriginal Ottawa/Hull multilingual radio production
industry, with the attendant social and economic
benefits that will flow from that growth.
6814 Personally, I look forward to the day
that an Aboriginal broadcast team brings to the
Canadian sports audience our own presentation of
Canada's national sport, lacrosse, the Creator's game.
6815 On a more personal note, I have some
comments to make about the applicants. Gary Farmer,
the force behind the AVR network, is one of the best
known, multi-talented and productive artists in Canada.
6816 He has applied the benefits of his
personal success as an actor, producer, director,
writer, publisher and community broadcaster, to enrich
the lives of members of his home community, and mine,
the Six Nations Grand River Territory.
6817 He has also, by his efforts in
collaboration with, and on behalf of his fellow
Aboriginal artists, extended his influence to every
corner of Turtle Island.
6818 The community radio station back
home, CKRZ-FM, "The Voice of the Grand", was founded by
Gary and a small group of enthusiastic volunteers who
have kept it running and flourishing to this day.
Those of us who have joined and supported him on behalf
of AVR have all, I am sure, done so as much out of our
personal respect and friendship, as for any other
community or professional reason.
6819 The AVR team, of which I am proud to
be a part, has presented a persuasive and thoroughly
professional case for the licensing of a national
network, as well as an Ottawa/Hull service. They have
met with previous success before you in Toronto,
Vancouver and Calgary, and I urge you to give every
consideration to this application as well.
6820 I would also like to add my voice to
those who have recommended to you the application now
before you from AVR's partner, Newcap. Newcap has been
a supporter and backer of AVR's efforts since its
initial application in Toronto, and the commitments
that Newcap has made for the application of benefits
and resources from its operations to the establishment
and ongoing efforts of AVR are unprecedented and
unequalled in the Canadian broadcast industry.
6821 Let me conclude my remarks by
repeating my thanks to all of you for the opportunity
to speak today. Merci, Nya:wen.
6822 I am prepared to answer any questions
you may have.
6823 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Montour.
6824 Commissioner Pennefather.
6825 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you,
Madam Chair.
6826 MR. Montour, you have this morning
answered the questions that I had coming out of your
letter which you sent to us.
6827 I only had one further question to
just clarify currently what the Aboriginal production
industry in this particular market is like, the talent
available in radio, television, and so on.
6828 Could you expand a little bit because
you do make a point about that in both your letter and
today's comment.
6829 MR. MONTOUR: To my knowledge, the
current pool, if you will, of talent and professionals
is distributed among the mainstream media operations in
this area -- technical, talent, professional and
otherwise -- and I think that given that foundation, if
you will, the volunteer Aboriginal sector will join
forces with those people who are already in the
broadcast business to develop and produce the local
programming that we hope will help this network
flourish. I certainly look forward to the chance to do
that.
6830 I am not all that certain as to
numbers when it comes to people but, as I said, they
are scattered throughout the mainstream outlets and
production facilities here and nearby. So I would
fully expect it wouldn't take long for people to take
up this challenge at all.
6831 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you,
Mr. Montour.
6832 Thank you, Madam Chair.
6833 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6834 Thank you, Mr. Montour, for coming to
see us this morning.
6835 MR. MONTOUR: Thank you again.
6836 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Rooney.
6837 MR. ROONEY: Yes, I --
6838 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have to come to
the mic --
6839 MR. ROONEY: Oh, I am sorry.
6840 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- because all of
that will become transcribed.
6841 MR. ROONEY: Okay.
6842 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think you may
have had a couple of minutes left from your ten
minutes.
6843 MR. ROONEY: Oh, thank you.
6844 Just in response to that question,
I do a lot of work, here in Ottawa, producing
information, videos and radio for government clients.
I work with a number of Aboriginal talents in this
community and I think there is a pool in English,
French and Inuktituk of about 30 that I know of who are
already working here.
6845 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Rooney.
6846 Madame la Secrétaire.
6847 MS POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chair.
6848 Carleton University, the Centre for
Aboriginal Education? No?
6849 We have an addition to the list. CBC
requested to appear so if they are ready to appear,
I would like them to go forward. They requested a few
minutes to set up, like two or three minutes.
6850 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
--- Pause
6851 MS POIRIER: Are the interveners for
Harvard in the room right now, like Council for the
Arts in Ottawa, Menzies Mixed Media, Great Canadian
Theatre Company? No one in here? Thank you.
--- Pause
6852 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Nous continuons avec
une intervention de Radio-Canada.
6853 So we will proceed with the CBC
intervention.
INTERVENTION
6854 MR. MONTY: Merci, Madame la
Présidente, members of the Commission. Thank you for
your patience and thank you for allowing the CBC to --
giving the opportunity to explain to AVR's technical
parameters, with the frequency 95.7, would affect the
CBC's Radio One service in eastern Ontario.
6855 My name is Paul Monty and I'm senior
officer, Regulatory Affairs of the CBC. And to present
our intervention, with me is Suzanne Lamarre, senior
manager, Corporate Engineering, CBC.
6856 MS LAMARRE: Thank you, Paul.
6857 Let me first set out the current
situation, then I will explain how AVR's proposal would
affect not only the CBC signal from Cornwall,
broadcasting on 95.9, but also CBC radio service in
eastern Ontario, and compromise service to 3,000
people.
6858 The existing situation. First, our
Radio One service in Ottawa, CBO, provides a reliable
signal to the southeast as far as Monkland. Our
broadcasting transmitter in Cornwall, CBOC-FM, relays
the service where CBO-FM no longer reaches. In between
there is an overlap area that is necessary to ensure a
reliable service area so that one of the two
transmitters may provide a better signal in pocket
areas where the other provides a weaker one. It also
gives the traveller some transition time as he or she
moves away from one signal and into the other with no
interruption of service. Finally, there is a vacant
frequency on 95.9 allotted to Renfrew.
6859 The 95.7 frequency is currently
allocated to Gatineau as a Class A channel. If it were
transmitting from Gatineau, as established in the FM
allotment plan, it would not interfere with CBOC-FM,
Cornwall.
6860 CBOC-FM is not currently operating at
full class parameters. If it were, our maximum
coverage would be the dotted line. And Industry
Canada's Broadcast Procedures and Rules protect our
signal to this extent. The full line is the existing
coverage and our objections with AVR's proposed
parameters relate to this existing coverage only.
6861 Our CBO-FM coverage, in blue, as you
see, overlaps with CBOC-FM, Cornwall. However, this
overlap is not free from interference. In fact, a
Montreal FM station causes some interference with
CBO-FM, so part of the area covered by CBO-FM, Ottawa,
needs to be backed up by CBOC-FM, Cornwall. More than
1,000 people live in that area around Maxville.
6862 The reason why the overlap area
between the Cornwall and Ottawa signal is critical and
why we cannot accept the interference that AVR's
proposal would cause is as follows. Coverage
calculations are predictions that the level of a signal
calculated will be present at a certain location. In
broadcasting, these coverage predictions are valid for
50 per cent of the locations 50 per cent of the time,
so, in effect, at the coverage limit, where we draw the
line.
6863 The signal level is lower than its
predicted value over half the time. To ensure the
reliability of the reception in an environment where
interfering signals are present, this characteristic is
compensated by another one: the protection ratio set
forth in Broadcast Procedures and Rules. This
prediction method is at the origin of the necessity for
overlap coverage in a network arrangement.
6864 If all of the official coverage
contours were to meet at their limit and not create any
overlaps, as theoretically shown on this map, it would
appear to provide seamless, uninterrupted service on
paper, but, in reality, with no overlaps, coverage
would be discontinuous in some places. This is why,
especially in populated areas, some overlap is
necessary to ensure reliable coverage in those areas
that sit at the edge of the two signals.
6865 Now, let's look at what AVR's
consultant proposed and the impact it would have on the
reliability of our coverage. Here is in red, the outer
circle, the location of the proposed interfering 95.7
signal from Ottawa. Our CBO-FM, Ottawa, coverage has
been set aside for now on this map. Here it is again
in blue. We can see from this map that the proposed
location of the interfering signal not only
significantly exceeds the one from the original
Gatineau allocation, it even goes a little bit beyond
the coverage of CBO-FM from Ottawa.
6866 Let's remove the signal from Gatineau
and concentrate on Cornwall and Ottawa. The signal
from 95.7 from Ottawa will create an interference zone
within the protected existing coverage of CBO-FM. This
interference zone includes not 1,500, but almost 3,000
people. Adjacent to this interference zone is another
area where the interfering signal from 95.7, Ottawa,
will reduce the reliability of the reception of
CBOC-FM. This zone, which is not considered as an
interference zone by the rules, is nonetheless an area
where reception problems are likely to occur should
95.7 be implemented as proposed and where the CBO-FM,
Ottawa, signal may not always be able to provide a good
replacement. Why? Because as explained earlier,
prediction of coverage is based on 50 per cent of
location, 50 per cent of the time probability.
6867 AVR's consultant has proposed to
decrease the power to 6 kilowatts. This power
reduction would reduce somewhat the interference zone,
but the affected population remains above 2,000. AVR's
consultant claims that his proposed parameters are
spectrum-efficient. However, the parameters would
affect the reliability and continuity of our Radio One
network coverage and it would diminish the intrinsic
value of the 95.5 megahertz frequency in Cornwall.
Furthermore, it will cause the deletion of an
allocation on 95.9 in Renfrew.
6868 For these reasons, we disagree this
proposed parameters would be spectrum-efficient.
Spectrum efficiency does not only mean maximizing a
given coverage area of a frequency. It also means
minimizing the detrimental effects on existing
protected coverage and on FM allotments. I would add
that in designing the best possible parameters, efforts
to prevent any prejudice to an existing coverage should
be made at the outset, rather than attempting to fix a
posteriori a problem that can be avoided right from the
very start.
6869 AVR's consultant has focused his
design on the Camp Fortune transmitter site. It is
clear that if any attempt to avoid harmful interference
to our Cornwall signal is to be made, Camp Fortune
needs to be ruled out as a transmitter site and the
search has to be made for another site. There are a
number of radio communication sites and building
roof-tops in the Ottawa/Hull region and a search for a
suitable site should quickly meet success.
6870 In fact, some applicants present at
this hearing have done so. And to illustrate the great
potential of such attempts, we have analyzed the
results of using one of these other transmitter sites
for the coverage of 95.7. As shown here an effective
radiated power of 8 kilowatts from a site located in
Hull, with an omni-directional antenna, would cause no
interference to CBOC-FM from Cornwall. It would also
protect the Renfrew allocation up to a 30-kilometre
radius. It would provide coverage to the area AVR
proposes to serve. All in Ottawa would be within the
3-millivolt-per-metre signal level and the 500
microvolt per metre signal would reach almost a million
people. Here is a more detailed map of this area, a
map that looks much better on paper than on the screen.
6871 Here is a more detailed map of this
area, a map that looks much better on paper than on the
screen.
6872 We are not saying that this would be
the solution for AVR, but doing this exercise shows
that Spectrum efficiency can be achieved without
prejudice to existing protected signals.
6873 In concluding, I would like to talk
about the CBC's track record with respect to Spectrum
coordination with other broadcast licensees.
6874 Considering that the CBC operates
four radio networks and owns and operates close to 40
per cent of all FM transmitters in Canada. An
application for an FM frequency is very likely to
dealing with CBC either for frequency coordination or
for site sharing purposes.
6875 Given the need to limit the
proliferation of transmitter sites and the increasing
scarcity of the broadcast spectrum, I can say that we
have always viewed and treated the coordination
opportunities as a public responsibility. Industry
Canada and canadian broadcasters can rely on us. So
can our listeners, present and future. They can depend
on our vigilance to ensure a continued quality of
service.
6876 This is why we respectfully submit
that should the Commission approve the use of 95.7 in
Ottawa for AVR or any other applicant, it should also
require that the technical parameters meet the
broadcast procedures and rules requirements and thus,
avoid causing interference to the signal of CBOC-FM.
6877 Thank you, madam Chair, members of
the Commission, for your attention.
6878 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, madame
Lamarre, monsieur Monty. Madame Lamarre, est-ce que --
it is possible to test to actually see whether the
theoretical contours which show possible interference
is actually there or not?
6879 Is it possible to test ahead of time
or is that too difficult?
6880 MS LAMARRE: It is possible, but our
past experience with similar situations leads us to a
firm conviction that it will exist, it will be there.
Also, as you pointed out when we look at realistic
parameters, results can be different. And when we use
realistic propagation models to determine the position
of the Ottawa signal, there is, in fact, no overlap
between the Cornwall signal and the Ottawa signal.
6881 THE CHAIRPERSON: But this is on
paper. Then, is it possible to do some actual testing?
6882 MS LAMARRE: It is possible to do
some testing, but given that it's a first adjacent
frequency, the area is so large and encompasses so many
people that it is almost unrealistic to think that it
would be possible to adjust every problem that may come
up, present and future.
6883 THE CHAIRPERSON: And future,
especially. When you talk about rules for adjacency
projection, you are aware of the review of those rules
that Industry Canada is making. Would it make any
difference if the rules were relaxed?
6884 MS LAMARRE: Well, I am a member of
the committee that is looking at the revision of those
rules and along with the CRTC, the Commission, and
Industry Canada consultants, private broadcasters and I
can tell you that the review that is currently being
looked at does not include a review of the first
channel protection criteria.
6885 That criteria is recognized as being
necessary as it is now and there is no attempt, it
won't be changed.
6886 THE CHAIRPERSON: It won't be
changed.
6887 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, you do agree
that 95.7 can be used for the purpose intended, but
basically it would have to be used, according to your
last slide, from a different site.
6888 MS LAMARRE: Yes. It is not the only
solution. The one that we have brought up today was
just to demonstrate that there are different avenues.
Camp Fortune, which is an interesting site, has its
advantages and disadvantages.
6889 Of the of the disadvantage is that it
would be difficult to, if not impossible, because I can
tell you it's probably impossible to implement in
direction of antenna on the tower. There is no room on
the tower for this.
6890 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you have room
for an omnidirectional, but not a directional.
6891 MS LAMARRE: There is currently an
omnidirectional and what is planned is to actually use
that on the directional antenna and there is really no
room to accommodate an additional antenna.
6892 And looking at other sites, that was
one, that was one example, but there are numerous
examples that can be used and using probably even a
directional antenna or omnidirectional antenna. There
is tremendous possibilities of maximizing our coverage
while keeping the prejudice to a minimum.
6893 THE CHAIRPERSON: In your last slide,
is this example from French Hill, which is the site
suggested by Mr. Belzile?
6894 MS LAMARRE: No. It is -- well, I do
not know, I cannot tell you it is the site that was
proposed by Radio Nord for channel 250.
6895 THE CHAIRPERSON: That was proposed.
6896 MS LAMARRE: She is an engineer. I
look at coordinates, I do not look at street addresses.
6897 THE CHAIRPERSON: Les latitudes et
les longitudes. Although Radio Nord is on an another
frequency?
6898 MS LAMARRE: Yes, although they are
on another frequency.
6899 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, that is the
site that they are now using on 97.9?
6900 MS LAMARRE: That is the site that
was proposed for us, yes, yes.
6901 THE CHAIRPERSON: And so, what you
are saying is there are solutions?
6902 MS LAMARRE: There are solutions.
6903 THE CHAIRPERSON: What is proposed is
not acceptable to the CBC, but there could be solutions
in using this frequency in a manner that you would find
acceptable and not threatening interference now or in
the future?
6904 MS LAMARRE: Absolutely.
6905 THE CHAIRPERSON: I do not have any
further questions. I do not know if my colleagues
have. Counsel has.
6906 MR. RHEAUME: Merci, Madame la
Présidente. Madame Lamarre, briefly, just one
clarification. It appears that you also have another
solution which would be a power reduction, which is set
out in your letter of April 11, third paragraph to
Mr. Matthews', could you show the Commission on the map
what that would mean, your third paragraph, the
solution that you proposed there?
6907 MS LAMARRE: We did not bring a slide
to show this, I'm sorry, but we can provide one by
tomorrow, if you wish, later tomorrow. But it would
reduce -- the power reduction that was proposed in our
letter was from the Camp Fortune site and by doing so,
it reduces, as compared to the original coverage that
the applicant was proposing. It reduced the coverage
in quite a significant manner.
6908 This is why we are saying that Camp
Fortune has to be ruled out if the application is to
use this frequency while achieving their coverage
target.
6909 MR. RHEAUME: Thank you. Merci,
Madame la Présidente.
6910 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Lamarre, I
take it from your comments earlier that the CBC remains
open to trying to resolve this and discuss this matter
with the applicant.
6911 MS LAMARRE: Yes.
6912 THE CHAIRPERSON: In a manner that
maximizes under that frequency without causing
interference. So, it's not a dead-end yet.
6913 MS LAMARRE: No, it is definitely not
a closed issue.
6914 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
much. We appreciate your coming so that we have a
better understanding of the issue and, of course,
Mr. Farmer will have -- and his team may have some
comments too in reply. Thank you again.
6915 MS. LAMARRE: Thank you.
6916 MR. RHEAUME: Merci beaucoup.
6917 THE CHAIRPERSON: Merci. Madame la
Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.
6918 MS POIRIER: Thank you, madam Chair.
I would like to ask if the intervenors for the Harvard
applications are in the room. So, I guess we will move
on to Frank Tessier.
INTERVENTION
6919 M. TESSIER: Madame la Présidente,
membres de la Commission. Mon nom est François
Tessier. Je suis de Pulsate Music Inc. Je suis ici en
faveur de NEWCAP Broadcasting, pour l'application
200102872, pour un format Dance Music.
6920 Je suis personnellement un ex-employé
d'une station de radio de la région qui avait le format
Dance Music et qui a changé de format pour cause de
décision de leur maison maître à Montréal.
6921 Suite à mon objectif et pour honorer
le format Dance Music, c'est alors que j'ai décidé de
quitter l'emploi et puis d'aller promouvoir et puis
d'ouvrir une compagnie de disques dans le format Dance
Music.
6922 A ma grande surprise, mes croyances
étaient une grande réussite. Nous avons parti un
groupe qui s'appelait Capital Sound en 1993-94 qui
s'est rendu internationalement et, en plus, rapporté le
Juno du best dance recording en 1994 dans la région
d'Ottawa pour la pressier fois.
6923 Suite à ces grands succès, j'ai fait
la formation d'autres groupes qu'on connaît bien, M.G.
Roxy, Nadia, qui sont tous de la région et qui ont, eux
aussi, eu beaucoup de nominations, sans oublier les
disques d'or sur compilation de grandes maisons de
disques majeures.
6924 Si je retourne dans le passé,
j'aimerais vous laisser savoir que dans l'Outaouais,
malheureusement, nous n'avons pas eu beaucoup de
reconnaissance parce que le format d'une station Dance
Music était absent ou est toujours présent, absent.
6925 Dans la région de l'est de l'Ontario,
lorsqu'on allait là le tapis rouge se déroulait pour
accueillir tous mes artistes.
6926 Ce que NEWCAP veut établir comme
format de station de radio est en grande demande dans
l'Outaouais. Le Dance Music est une grande source de
revenus mondialement autant qu'au niveau national.
6927 Je suis une maison de production qui
est basée dans l'outaouais, j'aimerais pouvoir dans ma
propre ville avoir la satisfaction et le même succès
que j'ai à Vancouver, Winnipeg, Toronto, Burlington,
toutes les places au Canada où ils ont une station de
format Dance Music.
6928 Je ne crois pas qu'une station Dance
Music pourrait affecter les autres stations qui sont
disponibles sur la bande FM dans la région puisque
c'est la seule place où le format Dance Music pourrait
avoir de la reconnaissance.
6929 Madame la Présidente, membres de la
Commission, je ne peux pas en ajouter plus. J'ai tout
simplement le désir de voir la naissance d'une station
Dance Music dans l'Outaouais et je suis en faveur,
encore une fois de l'application que NEWCAP présente au
CRTC. Merci.
6930 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, monsieur
Tessier. Madame Pennefather, s'il vous plaît.
6931 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Merci,
Madame la Présidente. Monsieur Tessier, merci d'être
avec nous aujourd'hui. J'ai juste une couple de
questions de clarification. Je pense que vous venez de
dire que le format Dance n'est pas disponible, mais
est-ce que la musique -- est-ce qu'on peut entendre ce
qu'on peut dire les artistes en Dance Music à la radio,
dans le moment?
6932 M. TESSIER: Si on peut entendre des
artistes Dance Music à la radio?
6933 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Oui, oui,
même si le format comme vous venez de dire, le format
n'est pas disponible, mais est-ce que, en effet, les
chansons, les sélections, les artistes Dance sont
disponibles maintenant à la radio à Ottawa-Hull?
6934 M. TESSIER: Le dance a plusieurs
catégories et puis si on regarde le dance visé
directement, il n'y a aucune station dans Ottawa qui
joue vraiment du dance. Il ne faut pas confondre le
pop qui peut souvent sembler être dance, mais il n'y a
pas de station qui joue du dance directement, qui
tourne du dance.
6935 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Je suis
intéressée aussi de savoir, parce que je pense que
votre carrière maintenant ce n'est pas promoteur et
producteur de Music Dance, qu'est-ce que c'est la
présence des artistes en dance à Ottawa, localement?
Est-ce qu'il y en a? Est-ce qu'il y en a beaucoup?
Ils ont quel âge? Où est-on rendu dans le bassin
d'artistes en dance localement?
6936 M. TESSIER: Dans Ottawa il y a, si
on regarde les artistes qui sont restés, on parle
toujours de certains membres du groupe Capital Sound
qui sont les récipiendaires du Juno en 1994 qui
viennent tout juste de sortir un produit qui est danse,
"Chill Danse", qui s'appelle "Bluetonic World", qui
d'ailleurs vient d'être en licence et en grande demande
en Allemagne, et nous nous retrouvons aussi sur
plusieurs compilations ici au Canada.
6937 Ces artistes-là, malheureusement,
sont toujours reconnus à l'extérieur de l'Outaouais et
souvent à l'extérieur du pays. Il y a beaucoup
d'autres artistes danse qui sont encore actifs, mais on
n'en entend pas parler parce que justement dans la
région on n'a pas de format.
6938 Oui, je peux vous les nommer, il y a
"Roxy", il y a "Bluetonic World", qui est l'ancien
"Capital Sound" qui sont toujours actifs et puis actifs
avec succès.
6939 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Merci.
6940 Merci, Monsieur Tessier.
6941 M. TESSIER: Ça me fait plaisir.
6942 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Merci,
Madame la Présidente.
6943 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Monsieur
Tessier, d'être venu nous voir ce matin pour ajouter
aux présentations de la Phase III.
6944 M. TESSIER: Merci, Madame la
Présidente.
6945 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci.
6946 Madame Poirier, s'il vous plaît.
6947 MS POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chair.
6948 The next intervention is presented by
the Canadian Urban Music Festival Incorporated.
INTERVENTION
6949 MR. ADÉ: Good morning, Madam Chair.
6950 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
6951 MR. ADÉ: Commissioner.
6952 My name is Wale Adé, I am the
Executive Director for the Canadian Urban Music
Festival, and we are here to intervene for the Newcap
broadcasting licence for dance urban music in the
National Capital Region.
6953 Today, with me I have two of the
artists that happily would benefit from such a radio
station in terms of helping Canadian artists locally.
6954 The Canadian Urban Music Festival
basically is --
6955 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Adé, are you
going to introduce them to us?
6956 MR. ADÉ: Oh, I am sorry, Madam
Chair. As you can see, I am really nervous. I am not
used to this.
6957 MR. BARKER: My name is Bingie
Barker.
6958 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am sure you are
used to bigger crowds than this.
--- Laughter / Rires
6959 MR. ADÉ: Yes, but you know,
sometimes this is more formal.
6960 THE CHAIRPERSON: It's the number of
feet above the others that makes you nervous.
6961 MR. ADÉ: Basically.
6962 Anyway, this is Bingie Barker. He
has been performing over 20 years in the music industry
in reggae and he is originally from Jamaica and he has
an album out that is not getting any airplay so far in
Ottawa, and the Mighty Popo, originally from Africa,
and has been performing for over 12 years and he has
two albums out with no airplay locally and they are
both getting international airplay.
6963 Definitely by approving Newcap's
application, it would definitely change a lot of things
in the National Capital Region and it would equalize
basically what the rock and roll and other stations are
getting in terms of airplay, in terms of financial
revenues, in terms of economic situation. It will
basically equalize the playing field -- or level the
playing field.
6964 Basically -- can I go on, Madam
Chair? Ah, okay, thank you very much. I'm having a
good time now.
--- Laughter / Rires
6965 THE CHAIRPERSON: It doesn't take
long to warm you up.
--- Laughter / Rires
6966 MR. ADÉ: Actually, you just made me
feel comfortable, that's why.
6967 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, that's good.
6968 MR. ADÉ: I appreciate that.
6969 Basically, the Urban Music Festival
started four years ago with the mission to promote and
increase the awareness of urban music and culture in
Canada and to assist urban artists gain exposure in
Canada and worldwide, for a positive urban attitude,
racial harmony and unity, for a greater understanding
and appreciation of our multicultural society and
basically raise the National Capital Region into a
major centre for urban music in Canada.
6970 So far we have showcased over 100
artists in the National Capital Region alone, without
any major radio support. We have been to most of the
existent radio stations locally and they just basically
shut us down in terms of, "This is not what we play.
We play top 40, we play country music". So basically,
with the introduction -- I mean, with Newcap's
application, I think we have at least a partner because
we also basically have a common goal in terms of our
mission statement and in terms of our agenda and that's
one of the reasons why we feel strongly about Newcap's
application for a dance urban radio station in the
National Capital Region.
6971 Also, I will just let my colleagues
here basically say a few words in terms of themselves
that way you can get to at least connect with them too.
6972 Bingie, please.
6973 MR. BARKER: Madam Chair, members of
the Commission.
6974 My name is Bingie Barker, as Wale
told you. I have been in the Ottawa area for the past
27 years and provided entertainment, music, employment
for quite a number of people -- it has been 20
something years -- without local airplay. I am pretty
sure that with Newcap's interjection in the city we
should get some airplay and we can increase our
clientele and, of course, spread the vibes all around.
6975 Thank you.
6976 MR. ADÉ: Mighty Popo.
6977 M. POPO: Bonjour à tous, bonjour à
toutes.
6978 Bon, je vais parler en français parce
que je me sens plus confortable.
6979 Je suis un artiste qui fait la
musique du monde. Avec Newcap, bon, c'est une grande
promesse pour moi avec toute la communauté
afro-africaine d'Ottawa que je représente ce matin.
6980 Bon, avec Newcap on aura la chance
d'être connus, d'être écoutés par une radio commerciale
parce que, en somme, notre musique passe mais ça passe
toujours dans les radios universitaires ou à
Radio-Canada.
6981 Avec Newcap ce sont de nouveaux
horizons. C'est pourquoi je suis ici ce matin pour
supporter ça.
6982 Merci.
6983 MR. ADÉ: Thank you, Madame Chair,
members of the Commission.
6984 As you can see, most of these artists
are talented artists. They have been working out in
their craft for so long and it's very difficult for
them to get their products to the people that really
appreciate it. Without any airplay it's very difficult
for them to make a living in terms of -- I mean, most
of the time when they even get international
recognition they always come back, "What are you doing
at home? Is there any radio station playing your music
at home?", and the answer to them is basically no, and
with your approval of Newcap, I am certain that all
that will change for them.
6985 I actually made a couple of notes
here. By you granting Newcap a licence to operate on
89.9, the Planet, they would definitely be able to
bring the whole planet together in the National Capital
Region and Newcap basically will have to promote and
celebrate our diversity.
6986 Newcap will help develop Canadian
artists from this region because they have pledge to
put in, I believe, $2.5 million into developing
Canadian talent and most of them are going to come from
this region.
6987 Newcap -- this is funny, I said,
Newcap is the future of what radio should be with their
employment equity commitment because this is one thing.
I mean, being somebody that deals with all the radio
stations in terms of looking for support for the
Festival, I believe that most of the radio stations
that I have visited have very little minorities, if at
all, employed in their corporation. Newcap promised to
change that.
6988 Newcap will be a dream come true in
the National Capital Region to most of the local
artists. Newcap will keep everyone dancing 24/7 -- and
I love to dance -- and I know that maybe some you like
to dance too, if you were to grant them the licence to
operate on the 89.9 FM bandwidth. Dance music
definitely improves everybody's morale because that's
why everybody goes to the islands on vacation because
it's stress-free, and also to wrap it up, Madam Chair,
basically the Juno Awards this year kind wrapped up and
said "We are paying an overdue tribute to Canadian
urban artists" basically because they have been around
for so long -- 30 years -- and it's only this year that
they actually recognized basically what is positive and
what is past overdue. We also have basically, Dan
here, one of the main record pool executives with us
tonight, I mean this morning.
6989 With your approval, Madam Chair and
members of the Commission, the National Capital Region
can enjoy the same kind of tribute. I mean, we can all
say that we have done our share.
6990 Thank you very much. I appreciate
your time and thank you for making me feel comfortable
today.
6991 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Adé,
and your colleagues, for adding to our process.
6992 I am sure you are not used to
appearing before anybody so early in the morning.
--- Laughter / Rires
6993 MR. ADÉ: Definitely not. I guess we
work all night and by this time we are still sleeping.
6994 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
6995 MR. BARKER: We are night owls.
6996 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am surprised at
how awake actually your colleagues do look.
6997 MR. BARKER: Not too bad.
6998 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6999 MR. BARKER: Thank you very much.
7000 MR. ADÉ: Thank you.
7001 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Madame la Secrétaire,
s'il vous plaît.
7002 MS POIRIER: The next intervention
will be presented by Len Puckerin and Ben Jammin.
INTERVENTION
7003 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning,
Mr. Puckerin.
7004 MR. PUCKERIN: Good morning, Madam
Chair and members of the Commission.
7005 My name is Len Puckerin and my
associate is Ben Jammin.
7006 I am here today to present my case in
the assistance of Newcap obtaining a licence here in
our capital region.
7007 I have been a disc jokey promoter for
the past 20 years in our Ottawa region. Due to
different means and ways of promotion, I have been able
to get our information out whether we have live
artists, disc jockeys performing in our Ottawa area.
7008 For 20 years, I have been performing
dance music in numerous clubs within the Ottawa/Hull
area and I think if we had some form of station being
able to play that music, I would have been able to
attract more people and a larger audience within our
dance music.
7009 In 1985, I embarked on bringing music
to the streets by requesting that the NCC allow us to
have permission in one of our local parks where I
brought the music, the disc jockeys and everyone
performed whether it was calypso, reggae, latin music,
and it did blossom until today. I am able to pass it
over to my friend Ben Jammin who is involved with break
dancing, where he uses the same dance music in order to
flourish or blossom their activities.
7010 MR. JAMMIN: Madam Chair, members of
the Commission, ladies and gentlemen.
7011 If I can speak for everyone just to
say quickly we might speak too close to the microphone
because we are used in speaking in microphones at our
community radio stations that don't always work. So we
might approach the microphone too much. So I apologize
for everyone that that might happen to.
--- Laughter / Rires
7012 MR. JAMMIN: As a late night radio
DJ --
7013 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's a lesson to
Newcap.
--- Laughter / Rires
7014 MR. JAMMIN: As a late night radio DJ
for the past four and a half years in Ottawa's longest
running hip-hop show on the Ottawa University community
radio station, CHUO, and also DJeing in the community
for almost 20 years and break dancing when it first
came out back in the '80s, I follow obviously this
whole trend of what is happening and was very honoured
to be asked to be on this panel.
7015 Again, as a late night radio DJ only
having had one hour and a half of sleep last night with
my hours being two to six in the morning, I am fighting
the weight of the bags under my eyes and fighting my
brain to be coherent with you this morning.
7016 I am very excited to be here. We
have made it this far even to be amongst this panel
right here. I am very excited. So I am not tired, but
I might be nervous and excited to be here.
7017 I have a few from the same reason why
I'm here now, why I'm awake, probably just a few quick
stories from the heart and soul of this industry. And
it's funny, I was telling my dad the other day I was
going to be here and he found that ironic considering
that when I was younger and we used to travel around
and out of the country, I would always ask him, when we
had the radio on I would always ask and complain to
him, "Why don't we have music like this in Ottawa? Why
don't I hear this style of music in Ottawa?". So he
found that ironic that I would be here on this panel
today hoping to have a station like this in Ottawa.
7018 Before I continue, first and
foremost, I would like to commend the CRTC for staying,
as much as they can, up to date, making the effort to
keep up with the styles of music that change, that has
continued to evolve throughout this industry.
7019 Without going in too much to the
details of the fragmentation of this dance music, as
you will be hearing, instead of going into those
details, a quick example. I'm sure you are all
familiar with the Back Street Boys. The Back Street
Boys, for example, which you would hear on Kool-FM, you
will hear various different styles on, say, take one
song from the Back Street Boys, and then you have many
artists, producers, remixers, that change this style of
song into, again, this various fragmentation that's
happening within the dance music scene and many people
that would not listen to this Back Street Boys on
Kool-FM would love to hear it on a station like this,
where right now they are hearing it maybe sometimes on
Ottawa universities' or other community radio station.
And there is a whole other target market that would
love to hear this genre of music and would not even
realize they are listening to Back Street Boys, or some
that do realize that it's a total different genre of
music that is not expressed through commercial stations
like Kool-FM. So definitely not taking away anything
from them, that is one of the reasons that I believe
that this station is greatly needed.
7020 I have been DJing again the scene for
15 years. Even though being a governmental town, I
have played to people like maybe yourselves. Other
government people that I know love to get out and relax
and it's part of what keeps the heart and soul grooving
of these governmental people when they get out in the
night life. Believe me, you would be surprised. You
would be surprised.
7021 THE CHAIRPERSON: So would you!
--- Laughter / Rires
7022 MR. JAMMIN: So, basically, my mom
and dad could vouch for me on the predictions that I
have had, in terms of being in this industry. To give
you a quick example, the rap artist, instead of working
within an electronic beep-box machine or digital drum
machine, predicting effusions of a rap artist, rapping
lyrics to a live band, in the same regards I have faith
that the CRTC will see that we have come to this time
where this fusion of new styles of dance music, would
be much appreciated and needed in Ottawa.
7023 And I know you are used to just
sitting here watching or listening to people. Can I
give you a five-second demo right here of what people
would be doing if we had this station? Could I
conclude with that?
7024 THE CHAIRPERSON: Absolutely.
7025 MR. JAMMIN: All right. This is, for
Madam Chair and members of the Commission, just a quick
demo of -- imagine the station is on the air right now
and here is what you would be seeing across the city.
--- Applause / Applaudissement
7026 MR. JAMMIN: I thought I would just
enlighten you with a little entertainment, since you
are used to seeing people sitting and talking to you.
So I hope you enjoyed that. My point was many people
would be flipping to have this type of station here in
Ottawa. Thank you.
--- Applause / Applaudissement
7027 THE CHAIRPERSON: If I'm expected to
do this, you are not getting a licence!
--- Laughter / Rires
7028 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner
Cardozo.
7029 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yeah, but
Mr. Jammin, wouldn't you be surprised if I got up and
did that for you!
--- Laughter / Rires
7030 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: A couple of
questions. Thanks very much for both of your
presentations.
7031 You are DJs in the business and I
wonder if you could just define for us what you see is
dance music and the kind of music you would like to
hear from NEWCAP if they were licensed. You talked
about a few forms like calypso, rap, reggae and
hip-hop. Is that it? Are there more?
7032 MR. JAMMIN: I think, again, I was
trying to save time on further fragmentation of this
music. There are various styles and genres of music
that I believe I will let my other colleague speak on,
that I'm kind of more in the break dancing scene,
teaching break dancing heavily right now and am more
within, actually, the styles that you have mentioned,
but there are various more that -- it has so fragmented
that I would not even speak on it, I would let some
other individuals answer that questions because there
are various styles that I don't want to sit here and
take up too much time to discuss.
7033 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, no, not
necessarily what their application is, but what I'm
just looking for is: what would you like to see --
what would you like to hear, rather?
7034 MR. JAMMIN: All the different styles
that I have heard. Something again, like I said, you
take a regular Back Street Boys' song and it's made in
so many different versions, styles of music: house
music, underground, trance, different styles that
aren't represented on Kool-FM, so I would love to hear
these styles that are even somewhat -- some of them do
cross over into commercial, but there are some that
stay underground, and those are the styles that aren't
seen, that aren't heard on Kool-FM, for example. So
many of these styles is what I would love to hear.
7035 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Puckerin?
7036 MR. PUCKERIN: For this year's Blues
Festival, we are having James Brown and Joe Tex, I
think, and that this is one avenue where we would have
a certain style of music which is not yet played very
much being heard to the public and maybe more people
will come out knowing that these performers are being
present in our city this year for the Blues Festival.
7037 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. I'm
wondering if within the sort of dance urban field,
which is quite a large range of music, are there
already things which are yesterday's kind of music or
dance and thing which are today's? You mentioned you
are teaching break dancing and I'm wondering if there
is perhaps less break dancing, more and more hip-hop.
Anecdotally, I just seem to see more ads for people who
are teaching hip-hop, as opposed to break dancing. Is
it fair to say that people are moving more to hip-hop
and break dancing was a bigger thing a few years ago?
Is there a constant progression within the music over
time?
7038 MR. PUCKERIN: There is a constant
progression. And as far as the dance music has
evolved, we know how people using dance music for
aerobics and every format or every style which has a
fast beat or a moving beat which is continuous, it does
take place from one segment, explode into our present
time.
7039 MR. JAMMIN: Yes, I'm very happy you
asked that question and I have the chance to explain
this to a CRTC panel. And the fact, something that
everyone may not be aware of, is hip-hop is a culture
right now. It's more than just a music. You have
hip-hop, which is a culture, and in this culture you
have the music, which is rap, and then the break
dancing, as you have said, that I do. So these are all
elements that have grown into a culture and the break
dancing is part of the hip-hop culture. So it is all
growing and fusioning very fast. Like, I have gone
from one class last year to four classes, two with
beginner and advanced classes this year in break
dancing. So as it, you know, somewhat -- yet some
people don't like this -- but commercializes a bit, you
might have seen break dancing on Pepsi, GAP
commercials, for example, so it's getting more popular,
and therefore only expanding and growing as a culture.
7040 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, and that
leads to an interesting debate, and I don't want to
have the whole debate, but there is a debate on there
as to what should be played on a dance/urban music
station. Should it be more hip-hop culture or should
it be the kind of -- the cultural music that comes from
the Caribbean? And hip-hop does, too, but if you take
the more, if I can use the word, traditional
calypso/reggae, is there -- should it be more hip-hop,
more calypso/reggae, soka?
7041 MR. PUCKERIN: Well, I think all the
music is verging into one body. And whether it be
calypso/soka, they will all have found a sort of common
ground to embody themselves into this one unit of dance
music.
7042 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But if you
have a station that plays more sort of hip-hop breaking
dancing stuff, do you think you will hear from people
who say, "Hey, you're not playing enough
reggae/calypso/soka", who will want to hear more of
that?
7043 MR. PUCKERIN: I'm not sure that will
exist because the dance music format that NEWCAP is
actually embodying, I think will house and embody all
those various style of music that is considered dance
music.
7044 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
7045 One other question. You have talked
about the enthusiasm that you see -- and the previous
witnesses talked about that, too -- in terms of the
people who make the music, the people who go to the
clubs in the genre of music, the people who run the
community radio stations or the campus radio stations.
I just want to ask you, do you think there is a larger
community out there which is large enough to support a
commercial radio station? Because the number of people
who go to clubs and who are DJs and so forth may be
quite large, but they are not large enough to support a
commercial radio station, which requires many more
people. Is it your sense that in this area there are
enough people who are interested in this kind of music?
7046 MR. PUCKERIN: I agree there are
enough people interested in this area because last year
we had the Fabulous Five that came from Jamaica as a
tribute to the Tulip Festival and we had a number of
people coming out to not only view their style of
music, but if there was more radio play of these
artists, more people will know about them.
7047 MR. JAMMIN: And without having the
club scene, people that like to stay home -- I have
many friends and friends of family, parents, that enjoy
the music, the different genres of music, but do not go
out to the club, but radio gives a whole different
format to listen to, right -- they don't have to go out
to a club to enjoy this music, which is only found in
some clubs right now --
7048 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes.
7049 MR. JAMMIN: -- some underground
formats, they will actually have the opportunity to
enjoy it on the radio, where they would feel safer at
home, right, and that is definitely in demand.
7050 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Well,
thanks very much. I assume that if this station were
to be licensed, Mr. Jammin, you will be back soon for a
television station so that the public can also see your
break dancing.
7051 MR. JAMMIN: I'm working on that,
too.
7052 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks.
7053 MR. PUCKERIN: Thank you, Madam
Chair --
7054 MR. JAMMIN: Thank you very much for
your time.
7055 MR. PUCKERIN: -- and members of the
Commission.
7056 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Puckerin.
7057 And as for you, I hope you have a
well deserved afternoon nap!
--- Laughter / Rires
7058 MR. JAMMIN: Thank you very much.
7059 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madame le
secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.
7060 MS POIRIER: The next intervention is
presented by ABM Company, Mr. Daniel Caudelron.
INTERVENTION
7061 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. It's
Mr. McLaughlin.
7062 MS POIRIER: No.
7063 THE CHAIRPERSON: No?
7064 MR. CAUDELRON: Cain.
7065 THE CHAIRPERSON: Cain? Mr. Cain.
7066 MR. CAUDELRON: My name is Daniel
Caudelron.
7067 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes, I remember
you now.
7068 MR. CAUDELRON: Yes. I have been
asked to appear.
7069 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we had a
different name, but now I remember. You have appeared
before us before.
7070 MR. CAUDELRON: Thank you for
remembering, Madam Chair.
7071 Unforgettable. No, with all levity
aside, I want to wish the Commission a good morning.
7072 Madam Chair and members, my name is
Daniel Caudelron. I have appeared before you before
and I have been invited this time by my friend from
Ottawa, Frank Banker, who heads the Ottawa Dance Pool,
Record Pool. And I'm here to speak as a proxy for
Elorious Cain, in support of the NEWCAP broadcasting
application.
7073 I am the founder and director of the
Chair DJ Pool in Toronto, which is now 24 years old. I
am a past director of CARAS, the Canadian Academy of
Recording Arts and Science, and the 2001 recipient of
the Walt Grelis Special Achievement Award and the
latest inductee into the Canadian Music Hall of Fame as
an industry builder who has worked to advance artists
from the dance arena.
7074 From my many years of experience, I
can personally attest to the following. First, that
dance music celebrates diversity, drawing from various
cultural musical sources and influences and, as such,
gives each contributing cultural group a measure of
pride and equality. Dance music broadens the
individual's appreciation of the various roots of the
music and, as such, the dance floor is a great unifier.
7075 Secondly, Toronto now has an urban
station, Calgary has recently been licensed for a dance
music station. A dance music station for the nation's
capital will provide a boost to the dream of a national
network of written music on radio.
7076 Thirdly, and a subject of personal
pride, and something that has been very close to my
heart, is that of Canadian talent -- the need for
Canadian talent to reach fruition and to blossom,
particularly in the dance arena, where there is a vast
well of Canadian dance artists who currently receive no
mainstream radio play. We, literally, have hundreds of
dance music artists working in the shadows and marking
time. We would like to see them move forward.
7077 Commissioners, I urge you to help
them step up into the spotlight to succeed, and to
thereby build a strong viable dance music industry in
this country. And I think if we had Ottawa joining the
dance battle and taking us another step forward, we
will soon reach that spotlight and we will reach that
blazing light for dance music.
7078 I thank you for your time and I want
to thank my friends here in Ottawa in the Dance Pool
for keeping dance alive in the nation's capital and for
being generous with the time and very courteous to
invite me here today to say these words and to extend
the general invitation to the nation to come dancing
with dance music in 2001. Thank you very much.
7079 MR. Cain already has a dance program
on CKCU-FM, right, or are you aware of?
7080 MR. CAUDELRON: I am aware of
Elorious Cain.
7081 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And if there
were a dance radio station, would you expect that
this -- what is now an alternative music style, I
guess, it is claimed that it is not available
otherwise, would it continue on the university
stations, do you think?
7082 MR. CAUDELRON: Frankly, I could not
say what university program is it going to do when
commercial radio comes in, carrying a particular kind
of music. I would imagine you look at the places that
I have been licensed, when you have a format such as in
Toronto where we have now got an urban format, what
happens to all the campus stations that were carrying
the music on a small scale.
7083 I imagine that they just go deeper
underground because no matter how commercial one can
get on the front burner, there is always going to be
the inventiveness of the music that is going to come
with something more subterranean that needs an outlet
and I guess campus stations will have a place and will
be able to flourish and carry that alternative.
7084 There will always be an alternative
to whatever becomes the main stream and as viable as
the main stream may be musically and aesthetically, I'm
pleasing there is always going to be tomorrow's
hottest. Today's great supporters of dance are going
to have children who will be even more inventive and
are going to say, dad, that stuff you have got, that is
blimey, so there is always another step forward.
7085 And so, there will always be room for
the main stream and the underground.
7086 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner
Cardozo has a few questions for you.
7087 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I just have
one question, Mr. Caudelron and you mentioned the
national network of rhythm music developing and I am
wondering if this would be the third station you would
have milestone in Toronto, which is part owned by
Standard and then the Calgarian station owned by
Standard and then this one would be owned by NEWCAP,
whether the different companies would still have a
national, not in a strict sense, but I mean you sense
that there would be a sharing of music among them.
7088 MR. CAUDELRON: Well, I mean, from
the point of view of the listener, that they would get
a sense that it a network developing and from the point
of view of the fan, from the point of view of the
producers, the writers, the creative people with whom I
particularly emphasize, they would feel that, you know,
we can go to this town, we go there, never mind who
owns.
7089 The issue is -- the sentiment is the
same. Music is the healing force, music is the driving
force, music is what we came here for. Never mind A
owns it, B owns it or C owns it. That's for the dance
fans, for the dance composer and for the dance creator,
it is not a matter of who owns. It is a matter of who
is going to play it and will they play it consistently.
7090 And if you have three cities and then
you have four ultimately every major urban centre in
Canada, big city ought to have a dance music station
and if they are owned by 20 people, the one commonality
is dance, the desire to dance and the need for the
fans, the audience to dance. Never mind Joe Blow.
7091 Does it matter what cereals you eat
in the morning, whether it is Kellogg's or this other
company, you choose your cereal every morning,
everybody has a breakfast. Every day you have got to
listen to music and get an infusion. And I am not sure
that you have to know that everybody is owned by the
same person.
7092 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: No, I am not
arguing for that, but I am just wondering, given that
there are different owners, you feel that there is a
community out there?
7093 MR. CAUDELRON: Absolutely.
7094 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Of producers.
7095 MR. CAUDELRON: The producers, the
artists, the listeners, the audience, the dances, the
users of the system do not sit down and care about the
ownership. They do not need to know who they ownership
is. That is a different issue altogether to them. It
is the music and as long as they are true to the
original mandate of the music that they came here for,
and the stations are playing that I think, it will hold
through. You dance on.
7096 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Ottawa has
considered has a reputation of being a very stayed
town, but as Mr. Jammin was telling us just before you,
there is also a wild side to this area.
7097 MR. CAUDELRON: I imagine.
7098 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you think
there is a wild enough side for dance music?
7099 MR. CAUDELRON: Absolutely; not just
a wild side, I think a necessary -- a necessarily
adventure stall that is growing. When I first came to
Ottawa in 1982 and it might have been stayed then, I
don't think this city is stayed, not from what my
friends of the dance pools tell me, not from what I see
of the artists that I have heard and met and seen.
7100 Debbie Fredericks comes from Pembroke
nearby, she does some terrific dance music. There are
people burgeoning and creating music at home right home
and I'm sure that all of the people that you have seen
and heard today and will meet in here today will
confirm the fact that just because this is a capital
city that was created for a particular political
purpose, it does not mean that roots do not grow there.
They go past the concrete and all of the niceties and
they grow roots deep that flourish, that go whichever
way they want and they are taking the music forward,
they are taking dance to everyone and they are making
people wake up.
7101 Ottawa is not a civil service city
any more. It is going to be the dance capital of
Canada.
7102 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Now, if we
were to licence this, just make sure you go and sing
that for me from the top of every mountain because
nobody would believe you.
7103 MR. CAUDELRON: I would be happy to
do so. Just give me the appropriate beat and I will be
there.
7104 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks very
much. Thanks, madam Chair.
7105 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Caulderon.
7106 MR. CAUDELRON: Thank you very much.
7107 THE CHAIRPERSON: Nice to see you
again.
7108 MR. CAUDELRON: I appreciate that.
Thank you.
7109 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madame la
Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.
7110 MS POIRIER: Merci, Madame la
Présidente. I would now ask Club Caliente.
INTERVENTION
7111 MR. RACICOT: Madam Chair, members of
the Commission, thank you for hearing us this morning.
My name is Jason Racicot. I have been an active member
in the dance community for over 13 years now. I have
worked in many clubs, disc-jokeying till late hours in
the morning.
7112 Since then, I have progressed to
remixing and producing different artists and the fact
that NEWCAP may be granted a licence would offer me an
avenue to have my remix projects played on that
station.
7113 Currently, no stations play that sort
of music. As one of my colleagues mentioned earlier, I
take music in a pop form, as I mentioned it was Back
Street Boys, and will add a twist to it and it becomes
a whole different version. No stations currently play
that type of music.
7114 The fact that they want to promote
the disc-jockey and stand behind them is also really
exciting for me. Several stations over the years have
stepped up and tried to appease that type of format.
Unfortunately, it failed. They have all, you know,
sort of gone away from it. They have gone top 40 or
adult contemporary. They never really stuck with that
type of format and I know when I listen to those
stations, I was really pumped and excited about it.
Unfortunately, they have gone away.
7115 So, it's really exciting again to
know that there is a new company that is interested in
starting that format.
7116 MME LÉONARD: Bonjour, Madame la
Présidente et membres de la Commission. Je m'appelle
Josée Léonard et je suis un D.J. depuis une vingtaine
d'années dans les dance night clubs et puis je trouve
que ce serait une très très bonne acquisition d'avoir
une station de dance car maintenant nous avons
seulement quelques heures dans la région avec une
diffusion de Toronto et Montréal qu'on peut entendre
des D.J. et puis ils font beaucoup de promotions pour
les artistes de Toronto, Montréal. On connaît plus les
artistes de ces régions-là que nos artistes.
7117 Juste un exemple, comme à la
télévision, on a eu un programme qui s'appelait Pop
Stars et puis nous avions un artiste de la région qui
s'appelle Jessica Hawell qui a été nominée la dixième
sur 4 000. Personne ne la connaissait dans la région.
7118 En ayant une station de dance comme
ça, on pourrait avoir plus de promotions pour nos
artistes de la région et puis D.J. Je vous remercie de
votre attention.
7119 M. GONTHIER: Bonjour, Madame la
Présidente et membres de la Commission. Je m'appelle
Stéphane Gonthier. Je travaille dans les clubs de nuit
depuis les quatre dernières années et je travaille dans
la communauté en tant que dis-jockey mobile depuis les
neuf dernières années.
7120 Tous les soirs, du mercredi au samedi
soir, moi, les types de musique que je joue c'est du
dance et pop. Ce que NEWCAP veut offrir à Ottawa puis
qu'est-ce qui est vraiment intéressant pour tous les
dis-jockeys de la région d'Ottawa-Hull.
7121 Avoir une nouvelle station va nous
aider à vendre ces artistes-là, les nouveaux artistes
qui veulent commencer dans la région, les promouvoir.
Promouvoir ce style de musique qui a vraiment un gros
potentiel, qui est vraiment toujours en augmentation
puis ça va aider à promouvoir les artistes locaux et
aussi canadiens.
7122 Étant disc-jokey, réalisateur et
"remixeur" de musique, je crois qu'avoir une station
comme celle que NEWCAP veut offrir, ça va donner une
grosse possibilité aux auditeurs de la région de
pouvoir écouter cette musique-là 24 heures sur 24, si
désiré, sept jours sur sept et que ça va vraiment comme
aider aussi, tu sais.
7123 Le monde vont aller dans les clubs
puis ils vont demander aussi ce style de musique. Ils
vont l'entendre à la radio, ils vont aller acheter
l'album. Ils vont -- ils vont l'entendre, ils vont
savoir exactement qu'est-ce qui en est puis après ça,
ils vont arriver au club, o.k., monsieur D.J., est-ce
qu'on peut entendre telle, telle chanson?
7124 Puis, moi, en tant que disc-jockey et
étant dans le record pool de Frank ici, je vais avoir
cette chanson-là et je vais être capable de la jouer
pour cette clientèle-là.
7125 Donc, avoir vraiment une nouvelle
station à Ottawa, ce serait vraiment comme le meilleur
puis ce serait vraiment une bonne chose pour tous les
passionnés du dance music puis ça va vraiment être une
nouvelle chose, une nouvelle station à tourner, lorsque
désiré. Merci beaucoup de votre attention.
7126 THE CHAIRPERSON: Merci et c'est
monsieur Racicot?
7127 M. RACICOT: Monsieur Racicot, oui.
7128 THE CHAIRPERSON: Monsieur Racicot,
madame Léonard et monsieur Gonthier. Madame
Pennefather.
7129 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Merci,
Madame la Présidente. Bienvenue les D.J. d'Ottawa.
Juste une petite question. Vous avez mentionné que
vous faites souvent les remix. Un autre exemple qui a
été donné tantôt, un remix de Back Street Boys.
7130 Étant donné que c'est les stars pop
et on les remix pour que ça ait un son dance. Est-ce
qu'il n'y a pas peut-être un danger que le format
devienne plutôt pop que dance? Parce que ça semble
avoir alors une description assez large.
7131 M. RACICOT: Présentement, il y a
beaucoup de versions pop. Mais si dans les formats que
nous on joue au club, c'est jamais les versions qu'on
entend à la radio comme cela. C'est toujours des
différentes versions comme house, progressive,
underground puis ce qu'on appelle "dance" qui est plus
up-beat.
7132 Ce n'est pas les versions pop, c'est
pas les versions radio ou les versions intégrales, ça
fait que je ne pense pas. C'est le concept d'une
station dance et de jouer ces formats-là, ces
versions-là, pas les versions traditionnelles qu'on est
habitué d'entendre.
7133 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Puis la
deuxième question; vous êtes dans les clubs ou bien le
club ici, c'est quel âge les gens qui sont là? Qui y
vient?
7134 M. GONTHIER: Moi, ma clientèle part,
parce que je travaille du côté d'Ottawa, part
officiellement de 19 ans jusque environ 27 ans, donc
j'ai une très grande variété puis j'ai une très grande
variété de musique. Donc, étant NEWCAP offrant une
certaine variété de musique qui est dance puis qui
tourne un peu aussi sur pas mal le R&B puis le hip hop,
ça va aider de ce côté-là.
7135 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Madame,
est-ce que c'est le même?
7136 MME LÉONARD: Oui. Moi, c'est entre
19 ans et 35 ans, je dirais. Je travaille dans la
communauté gaie, je travaille dans un club gai à Ottawa
où est-ce qu'on a deux jours semaine entre 500 et 1 000
personnes. C'est très très populaire.
7137 M. RACICOT: Je pourrais aussi
ajouter qu'il y a aussi les plus jeunes, en partant de
15 ans à 18 ans qui n'ont pas la possibilité d'aller
dans les clubs, mais qui aiment quand même entendre et
écouter ce genre de musique. Ils peuvent avoir
l'opportunité maintenant.
7138 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Merci.
Merci, Madame la Présidente.
7139 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, monsieur
Racicot. Ce sera plus facile pour la force policière
comme ça.
7140 M. RACICOT: Oui, ça éliminerait des
problèmes des fois.
7141 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Ceux qui n'ont pas 19
ans pourront rester à la maison. Merci, madame,
messieurs. Madame la Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.
7142 MS POIRIER: Bernard Trudeau, s'il
vous plaît.
INTERVENTION
7143 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour, monsieur
Trudeau.
7144 M. TRUDEAU: Madame la Présidente, je
suis ici comme propriétaire de club pendant 20 ans de
temps. J'ai avec moi Shalini Kelly qui était le
directeur de musique pour mes boîtes de nuit.
7145 J'ai pas plus à ajouter que ce que
j'ai mis dans ma lettre, juste à dire que la musique
que nous, on jouait, c'était pour jusqu'à 50 ans. Il
n'y avait pas tous des jeunes. Nous autres, on
commençait `20 jusqu'à 50 ans puis il y a un gros
besoin dans le moment pour une station de dance.
7146 Puis il y avait une question, c'est
qui qui joue la musique dans le moment? C'est les
clubs de nuit. C'est eux autres qui font découvrir la
musique aux gens qui, après ça, demandent pour aller
l'acheter. Je vais passer à Shalini Kelly qui va vous
expliquer plus; moi, je suis juste comme propriétaire.
7147 MS KELLY: Good morning, ladies and
gentlemen. As Bernie has said, my name is Shalini
Kelly. I am coming here not just as a D.J., but also
as a music listener.
7148 I have been working as a D.J. on a
part-time basis for the past ten years and would have
noticed that it was not only really fun for me to go
and play the music, but also to meet the people who
came to the club to listen and enjoy the music.
7149 I found that in the past, clubs were
kind of deplaced to hear new music, dance music,
somewhere where they could have fun, listen to
something new, listen to new music styles, new versions
of existing songs, new formats and it always amazed me
in my visits to other cities and other -- my other
colleagues of mine have mentioned the fact that they
have gone to other cities such as Montreal, Toronto,
New York, wherever, and they have been able to flip to
dial all over and hear all kinds of dance music and I
come back to Ottawa and we have nothing like that, and
one would have to go to the club or go to places like
Downtown Records which promoted dance music. Those
sort of served as dance music stations per se where
people could go and pick up new music, listen to
something new.
7150 Ottawa, I found, has had a bit of a
conventional coverage of music. They have catered to
certain groups -- country music, rock music,
alternative, talk shows, sports, whatever -- but there
has never been a real dedication to dance music and
I think that's really lacking because in all my years I
found that people are wanting to hear that, and more so
now.
7151 A lot of my friends, my colleagues,
they are club goers, they are dance music listeners.
They are out on their lunch hour buying the new CDs.
They can't get that music on the radio so they have to
go buy these CDs and if they had this venue to listen
to music, I am sure they would be really thrilled. In
fact, some of my colleagues have written you a letter
in support of Newcap's application and I think what
they are looking for, what I am looking for, what we
are all looking for is being able to tune into one
station where we are going to hear all this music that
we love or even discover the new music that we will
love.
7152 Thank you.
7153 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Kelly, is it
your experience that the interest goes also beyond the
younger demographic?
7154 MS KELLY: This is actually one of
the points I was thinking about. If you can see here
the people that have appeared here today, and we even
talked about it this morning, and how diverse the group
is not only in culture and styles of music played, but
in age. You might think of me as one of the younger
people, but I am somewhere in the middle and I find
that this interest goes -- my mother is so into dance
music and I think Ben was saying that a lot of people
don't want to go out to the clubs, but they want to
have that opportunity to hear this music and radio is
the way. Ottawa needs it.
7155 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
7156 Thank you, Mrs. Kelly et Monsieur
Trudeau pour votre présentation ce matin.
7157 M. TRUDEAU: Merci.
7158 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Nous allons prendre
une pause maintenant d'une quinzaine de minutes.
7159 Nous reviendrons dans 15 minutes.
7160 We will be back in 15 minutes. That
should be about 11:30.
7161 Thank you.
--- Upon recessing at 1115 / Suspension à 1115
--- Upon resuming at 1135 / Reprise à 1135
7162 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will proceed
with the next intervenor.
7163 Madame la Secrétaire, s'il vous
plaît.
7164 MS POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chair.
7165 The next intervenor is presented by
Rtran, Ranjan Kelly.
INTERVENTION
7166 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning,
Mr. Kelly.
7167 MR. KELLY: Good morning, Madam
Chair, members of the Commission.
7168 My name is Ranjan Kelly and I would
like to thank the CRTC for allowing me to appear today
in support of a dance music station for Ottawa/Hull.
7169 My way of introduction, I have my own
company which provides direction, product and service
in a number of areas, especially music and
entertainment.
7170 I previously worked with the federal
Canadian government in a managerial capacity, but
throughout my professional law career I have been
involved in a parallel career by night in music. This
includes being a musician, songwriter, club DJ, even
coordinator and also promoter of dance music with the
Ottawa Record Pool as a co-director.
7171 I was really excited to hear about
this Newcap application and my letter written to the
CRTC on April 29th elaborates on what I feel my
convictions and they are all from a personal
perspective and if I may, I would like to elaborate on
them here today.
7172 As a musician, I want to say that
it's not just club goers who like this kind of music.
Non-club goers also like dance music and I will give
you a couple of examples.
7173 We all know rock superstar Bruce
Springsteen. He was considered the future of rock and
roll in the 1970s, but it was ten years later when he
became a superstar and that was with the dance club hit
"Dancing in the Dark". In this same way John Lennon of
the Beatles was asked in 1975, long after they broke
up, "What are you listening to now?" and he said, the
current disco hit of the day which was "Shame, Shame,
Shame".
7174 I used to DJ at the Four Seasons
Hotel at a club called Sasha's and we had rock artists
staying there and they would come to the club after the
concerts and they would come up and request dance music
songs.
7175 I grew up in rock and roll and jazz,
played in bands, I still write music, but when I turn
on my CD player, when I turn on the radio I want to
hear upbeat, feel good dance music.
7176 As a DJ over several years at many
clubs in this city, we trailblazed many aspects of
different dance music, from disco to urban to European
and Latin sounds. It's an umbrella term. It captures
everything -- Latin sounds, world beat -- and I can
elaborate on that later, if you would like.
7177 But it brought together a diverse
clientele of people from all walks of life, groups and
cultures and age groups varied from people who were 18
to people who were in their 50s. People would come up
to me and say, "Where can I buy that song?", and I
said, "You can't. I'm sorry. I just mixed it live".
It wasn't available commercially. And they would ask
us to make a tape or something like that because that
was the only way they could hear it.
7178 But there were cities like New York
where they were playing remixes like this, and I know
the Planet, which the Newcap is proposing will be able
to satisfy that demand.
7179 Let's look at events. I was involved
with fashion shows. They used dance music to
complement the models as they walked up the runways and
they still do.
7180 I mean, if you look at high-tech
seminars, if you look at sports commercials, if you
look at other entertainment events, they are using
dance music instrumentals to provide that vibes, and I
know that the Planet could do the same thing.
7181 I have been the Ottawa Record Pool
also and I have been promoting music with their dance
music companies, with DJs, with other Pool directors,
and they all want to see this music go forward, but
they need radio's help and today commercial radio in
Ottawa wants to stick to a proven and safe sound, which
is okay, but that's why we need a station which will
play cutting-edge music.
7182 Many artists are better known in
other countries -- and I will cite an example. I was
travelling a couple of months ago in India in a town
called Goa where they have a very heavy club scene and
I heard dance music being played there by Canadian
artists. And I said, "This is sad. These artists are
not even being heard over here in Ottawa and they are
being heard in India". If the current music stations
cannot understand this, we need a station like the
Planet.
7183 The big cities have their dance
stations and the Canadian industry is telling us the
music industry, dance music industry, "When is Ottawa
going to join the world?".
7184 Let's look at the workforce. The
workforce is predominantly civil servants, as we all
know, but I worked with them and they go out at night
and they love these sounds, I know that. There are
work environments all over that allow the playing of
music radio and they would love to play dance music
during the day if they could. After work they go for
exercises, aerobic workouts, dance music is being
played. In office parties, you get a mobile DJ playing
to all kinds of ages of people, dance music again.
Driving home from work, they want up-tempo songs.
7185 I made a list of clubs the other
night, and I came up with 65 on my own. Let's add to
that what other people would say and maybe we have 100
clubs. On a Friday night 200 people go to each club
and you can see the numbers that are happening.
Saturday we get some different people, so you add a few
more thousand to that.
7186 Now, if you look at the last 20
years, people have been going to clubs so you have all
those people too and they haven't stopped -- they may
have stopped going to club, but they haven't stopped
liking the music. They still like it. So we have a
huge, huge number of people out there who want to
listen to this music.
7187 These numbers incidently do not
include people who go to university clubs, live band
venues. There are singles bars that play non-DJ music
which is dance in nature and, of course, there is dance
studios that also provide a clientele for this kind of
music.
7188 Finally, if we look at the ethnic
multicultural minority factor many of the different
sounds we have today in dance have an international
component and the NCR is diverse with a multitude of
cultures and ethnic populations. Other genres of music
cater just to a specific audience, but overall the
Ottawa/Hull listening audience is significantly diverse
and a dance urban station would go a long way towards
establishing a common listening ground.
7189 Last but not least, my experience as
a DJ is that women in particular love to dance and
thrill to the sounds in the clubs. So why are we not
meeting the need for so many different minority groups
of people?
7190 Finally, look at the commercial radio
playlists. We have similar artists that you mentioned
like Madonna, Janet on commercial stations, but we hear
the water-downed versions, we don't hear these remixes
that are so creative. We hear these songs long after
they have been broken in clubs, but people have to wait
several months to hear them on the radio when they
could have heard them long before that.
7191 I just feel, as my colleagues feel,
how long are we going to have to wait? Will we have to
wait another few years? Why can't it be now? Why
can't we be there?
7192 And most important of all, there are
hundreds of artists, Canadian artists, local artists,
with their songs that are not being heard by people on
an ongoing basis and they deserve that chance.
7193 To conclude, the key to all this is
the Newcap application. They have given an excellent
presentation which I was fortunate enough to be at, and
Newcap's innovative ideas and intention to enhance the
Ottawa cultural music dialogue and commitment to
support local artists can be nothing but win-win-win
for all concerned for Ottawa/Hull and its status as a
relevant 21st century city, for its people and economy
and for the CRTC in recognizing and enabling the city's
overall music rainbow vision.
7194 The dance community is very big and
very close though in terms of spirit and passion. Many
of my colleagues here have to be commended for taking
time out to come here. There are artists who would
have loved to have been here, but they have to support
themselves and they couldn't take time off from work.
7195 My final word. Let people hear what
they love. Simply put, people love to dance. Why?
Maybe something I read long ago might help to shed some
light.
"Dance combines all of the arts.
It has the grace of a ballerina,
the drama of an actor, the form
of a sculptor, the lines of an
artist and the rhythm of a
musician".
7196 Thank you.
7197 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Kelly.
7198 Madame Noël.
7199 COMMISSIONER NOËL: So Mr. Kelly,
they don't roll the side walks in Ottawa at 4:30 every
day.
7200 MR. KELLY: Sorry, I didn't hear you.
7201 COMMISSIONER NOËL: I said they don't
roll the side walks at 4:30 in Ottawa any more. You
have clubs at night working.
7202 MR. KELLY: I am sorry. I didn't
understand. I beg your pardon.
7203 COMMISSIONER NOËL: I said contrary
to the common thought, they don't roll the side walks
at night. There are clubs working at night.
7204 MR. KELLY: Yes.
7205 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Many clubs.
7206 MR. KELLY: Yes, that's right.
7207 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Mr. Kelly, when
you say that the commercial radios play Madonna or
Janet, or other artists in a "water-downed version",
what do you mean by "water-downed"? Is it the words
that are changed, the music, the beat?
7208 MR. KELLY: No, it's not the
water-downed version. Basically, an artists composes a
song and sings it the way it was written.
7209 What happens after that -- and if you
allow me to talk about this, is a record company sees a
song, it has potential, or a DJ producer sees this has
potential to become really big on the dance floor. So
they invite DJs, such as those you have heard today, to
submit a variation of that song. They take b-tracks,
drum tracks, other electronic sounds, and make that
song almost different and they submit these to the
record companies who allow them to make these remixes
and then they press these and send back to the DJs, ten
versions of the same song. They are eight minute in
length, ten minutes, 15 minutes in length, and say,
"Here, tell us what is the best version and we will
release that commercially".
7210 So before all that happens, the DJs
are playing these in the clubs and people are hearing
these sounds. They might put a techno field to it,
house-field -- I am sure you have heard these
expressions, but they are part of the whole umbrella
term of dance -- and it combines maybe a rap sort of
beat, perhaps another version of the same song has a
disco Italian kind of continuous rhythm. Sometimes it
has a Latin flavour to it, a little bit of a samba
beat. Sometimes it has a world beat to it and you have
a Gypsy King style guitar playing in the background.
7211 That's all part of the whole umbrella
term of dance music and you can't get that on the CD
that you are buying. You can only get it in a special
compilation. Or, if you look at stations in Miami, in
New York, you are hearing these versions being played
live by DJs, and people love it. It's just tremendous.
I'm sure you have travelled and seen the energy that is
happening over there. It's because they have a chance
to hear this music.
7212 COMMISSIONER NOËL: So what is aired
on standard type radio? When I say "standard", I make
no reference to standard radio. I mean, a usual type
of radio station in this area would be the CD version
that's available in stores, but what you are playing in
the clubs is an upbeat version of the same.
7213 MR. KELLY: The term used is a
"remix", it's remixed and it has several other
instruments perhaps in it, an echo of the voice, all
kinds of interesting effects that make the song a
totally new --
7214 COMMISSIONER NOËL: And an urban
dance station would play the remixed versions.
7215 MR. KELLY: Right, right.
7216 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.
7217 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Kelly.
7218 MR. KELLY: Thank you very much.
7219 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Madame la Secrétaire,
s'il vous plaît.
7220 Mme POIRIER: Merci, Madame la
Présidente.
7221 I would now ask Mr. Frank Branker,
from the Ottawa Record Pool.
INTERVENTION
7222 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning,
Mr. Branker.
7223 MR. BRANKER: Good morning.
7224 Madam Chair, Commissioners, my name
is Frank Branker, and with me I have Scott Waithe from
Universal Records that is going to assist me with my
presentation. I'm a little nervous, so bear with me.
7225 Twenty years ago, I founded the
Ottawa Record Pool, an independent organization
sanctioned by the Canadian Music Industry. Our mandate
is to network and promote dance and urban music in the
National Capital Region to disc jockeys and clubs. And
it's something that I am committed to. I have been
doing it, like I say, for 20 years. I also get
involved with a lot of promotions in the club circuits.
When the people have like their DJ contests, their DMC
World Championship, they usually call on someone like
me to be a judge, grey hair and all.
7226 In addition, I was the proprietor of
Downtown Records, one of Ottawa's oldest and most
respected dance music stores, with revenues of -- back
in the days close to half-a-million, $500,000 in
revenues.
7227 Each week, my Record Pool members are
serviced with approximately 15 to 20 pieces of new
dance releases. Out of that every week there are
usually at least five new releases from Canadian dance
acts. Having a radio station can only help in their
promotion.
7228 As my colleague mentioned, there are
approximately 65 clubs in the Ottawa/Hull area that we
just, on a rough count -- and we are not talking places
like strip bars and private clubs that all play dance
music, we are not even counting that. You know, we
many not realize it, but we are so exposed to dance
music that sometimes we just take it for granted. You
know, it's not uncommon that on a weekly basis
producers from some of the other radio stations would
come into my establishment looking for special dance
music to be used as background music in a lot of TV
programs, documentaries, sporting events. But a lot of
people never realize, "Hey, that background music is
actually dance music we are listening to, you know,
it's the music in the background". And, again,
especially when you are on vacation and you have that
rum and coke in your hand or that margarita and you are
relaxing in a tropical country, that background music
there, they are not banging you with rock and roll, you
are listening to dance music -- their form of dance
music, based on the particular island that you are in.
7229 When I heard about the NEWCAP
application, I contacted a lot of my colleagues in the
industry. And some of them sent me letters in support
of the NEWCAP application. I would just like to take a
minute just to highlight a few points from some of
these record labels. And here is one -- and these
labels have been around for at least 10 years. We are
not talking fly-by-night operations; we are talking
Canadian labels. I deal with approximately 30 Canadian
labels that deal exclusively in dance music. It's a
way of life for them. And, you know, if you need a
copy of these letters for your records, I will be happy
to get these letters to you so you will have this on
file. Quote:
"NEWCAP Broadcasting will
generate countless opportunities
for all those involved: labels,
artists, clubs, studios, graphic
artists, etc. It will also be
an ideal medium for advertising
our upcoming talent, since the
listeners will be our main focus
group." (As read)
I'm going to pass on this one. Here is another one
from SBG.
"We at SBG Music will willing to
work with the NEWCAP
Broadcasting in any means
necessary to make such a radio
station succeed. We would offer
promotional and marketing
support by means of giveaways,
an artist's appearance and
advertising dollars." (As read)
Which is very important.
7230 And, you know, that is the sentiment
right across from all these letters, you know,
support -- support. Canadian artists, if they are
playing Canadian artists, they want to spend their
money there, they want to help with the advertising
dollars because that's where they want to spend their
money. And finally, one of the biggest record company
in the world, Universal, and I will let my colleague
Scott say a little about that.
7231 MR. WAITHE: Hi, good morning. My
name is Scott Waithe. I have been working with
Universal Music Canada now for the past four years. In
my capacity, I have come to know that, after a little
bit of research, 25 per cent of all music sold in
Canada is compilation music. Now, when I say
"compilation music", like, for instance, "Hockey Hits
2001", as Frank has mentioned, the in-between-period
music you hear at the hockey games is dance music. And
you see everybody get up out of their seats and get all
excited about it, 25 per cent of all music sold in
Canada is complication, which needs to be represented,
and it's not here in the Ottawa/Hull region.
7232 I can say that for a certainty as not
only does Universal represent 17 labels, but I have
personally gone in to certain stations -- I'm not
mentioning any names, but I will tell you that there
are certain hit songs that have not gotten air play
that have gotten air play across the country here in
Canada -- and a dance station in Ottawa will be able to
fit that type of, I guess, gap that is needed.
7233 Another couple of points I wanted to
touch on before I pass it back to Frank is the fact
that I have been DJing here in Ottawa also for the past
10 years. And touching on some questions that were
asked earlier on, in terms of if dance music is on a
community station, such as CKCU, like I am on, being a
volunteer at CKCU, I can tell you that if my music is
being played commercially there's a lot more out there
that I can go back into a crate and get that's not
being played at all.
7234 So that's basically all I have to
say. Thank you.
7235 MR. BRANKER: Thank you, Scott.
7236 In my closing statement, I would like
to address the diversity of people and cultures that we
are having as we grow in this fine city, and I will
quote from my letter to you.
"Immigrants to this fine city
would prefer a bit more variety
of popular music, along with the
traditional rock and roll and
country music. Adding dance
music to the mix will help to
reflect a more accurate overview
of the music choice of the
national capital. Canadians who
haven't travelled the world have
failed to understand just how
popular dance music is engrained
in other cultures. Perhaps it's
time to consider breaking from
old traditions. It's also time,
in my opinion, that a radio
station be given the opportunity
to program music that is more
reflective the changing dynamics
of the growing cosmopolitan
communities in the Ottawa/Hull
area." (As read)
7237 In closing, I would like to thank my
colleague, Daniel Caudelron, for making the trip down
from Toronto. This year, Daniel was the recipient of a
special Juno Award for dance and urban music, and it's
quite an accomplishment in our field. Thank you very
much for listening to us.
7238 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Branker and Mr. Waithe.
7239 Commissioner Cardozo.
7240 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks, Madam
Chair.
7241 Thank you both for coming here.
7242 MR. Branker, first, let me ask you,
you have talked quite a bit about the market that you
serve, and I want to pose a similar question that I
asked one of the earlier witnesses. There is a certain
number of people who would go to the clubs, be it the
DJs, the artists -- and they make up a fair number of
people -- but in the Ottawa/Hull area, do you think
there is a large enough community of people who would
make a commercial station viable for dance music?
7243 MR. BRANKER: In my opinion, and I
don't have any formal records to back this up, but I
can tell you we have been dancing and club-going for
over 20 years, as far as I know --
7244 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes.
7245 MR. BRANKER: -- and, do you know,
people will dance. You are not going to deny them that
privilege, you know. I don't go to dance clubs any
more, but I enjoy turning the radio on and just getting
the sampling of what little the other stations play on
a Saturday evening. It doesn't mean that I don't keep
informed by not listening to the news and other formats
of radio, but, you know, sometimes, you know, you want
to listen to some dance music and it's nice to know you
can flip the dial, you have that choice -- choice. I
think we are denied that choice.
7246 And things are changing here, the
ethic mix and stuff like that, and if there is no
choice, you now, it's almost like we are forced to
listen to a style of music that we don't want to on
commercial radio.
7247 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes. Well,
there's no problem with choice, but the issue we are
facing, the Commission, is to make at the end of the
day, is there are just a few frequencies that are being
considered -- not quite a few left, there may be
others -- and given the two or three frequencies, we
can't simply -- well, we could, but the question is:
is it the best use of the frequency to give it to a
format just for the purpose of choice when the number
of people who go to that choice is going to be very
small. So I'm asking you, is the number of people who
would listen to a dance station as much as, say, one of
the other existing stations in the market?
7248 MR. BRANKER: I would say, yes. I
would say, yes, there is numerous people out there.
And one of those other existing stations, you are going
to -- so perhaps you license another one to compete
with themselves again, and is that really needed?
7249 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes. Okay.
7250 Let me ask you, from your experience
in the business, either of you, both as a DJ and as a
seller of records, what you sense is today of the
market, in terms of -- you talked about the
multicultural mix, but I'm also wondering about the
anglophone-francophone mix of this area. Is dance
music as popular, or is it popular, among the
francophone population? I ask that because the roots
of dance music tends to be English language, either
from the Caribbean or from the United States.
7251 MR. BRANKER: Well, I don't know how
long you have been in the Ottawa/Hull area, but the
main core of the whole dance music industry, the whole
club-going thing, has been for the last 20 years the
Hull region, you know, has always been the place. You
come over here and the French people have always got
that party that they are, you know, that they are
willing to celebrate and to dance and to listen to this
music. And a lot of club-goers look forward to coming
over to Hull. That was the place -- bigger than the
Ontario side. If you go to bigger places like Montreal
and stuff like that, you know, I think you really get
the feel of the depth of the community.
7252 So as far as the French people, you
know, I think they will welcome this decision and they
will be listeners, they will participate in the station
and listen.
7253 MR. WAITHE: And according to the
sound scan numbers, you can see that there is a
marketplace in the Hull/Gatineau/Aylmer area
especially, when they are scanning high numbers for
some universal products, such as House Mix, House Mix
2000, House Mix 3, etc., etc., and they are getting
these things off of word of mouth and possibly TV
advertising, they are not actually hearing it on a
radio station, they are hearing in a club. So that's
how they are going out and getting excited about it.
7254 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are there a
lot of French bands or groups -- I can think of
Dogmatic, for Montreal, which is quite well known, but
are there a lot of others that play urban music in
French?
7255 MR. WAITHE: Yes, there is a
substantial amount. Universal currently working I
believe it's four different artists right now that are
French urban groups. There are different dance
remixers, you know, which we utilized and they are also
based out of Quebec.
7256 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Thanks
very much.
7257 MR. BRANKER: One of note out of
Montreal would be the DJ Mario, that has been making
compilations for the last 10 years. And he records on
Sony Music and is very big on the Quebec side. It's a
household name as you as -- you know, he's on
commercial radio in the evening with the dance shows
and stuff. I have a letter here from his company, too.
7258 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Thanks
very much.
7259 MR. BRANKER: You are welcome.
7260 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Commissioner Cardozo.
7261 Thank you, Mr. Branker and
Mr. Waithe, for your presentation.
7262 MR. BRANKER: You are welcome.
7263 Madam Secretary, please.
7264 MS POIRIER: The next intervention
will be presentation will be presented by Menzies Mixed
Media, Ian Menzies.
INTERVENTION
7265 MR. MENZIES: Madam Chair,
Commissioners, my name is Ian Menzies. I'm the
president of Menzies Mixed Media. It's a company that
I started with my wife when we were living in Toronto
in 1992. We have since relocated to Vancouver and
brought the company with us, of course. We provide a
wide range of consulting services, focusing primarily
on entertainment industry activity.
7266 For the last 20 years, almost, it's
shocking to admit, I have worked extensively in the
music business, usually in progressive genres -- what I
would consider progressive genres -- like acid jazz or
world music fusion and electronica.
7267 I started out as a band leader and
composer and musician and toured the country back and
forth over many years through the eighties and ended up
getting some videos and rotation on MuchMusic, some
radio air play.
7268 In the early nineties I wrote
extensively for national music publications like
Canadian Musicians and Chart Magazine and others, and I
was also a founding partner in MoFunk Records,
Vancouver based acid jazz label with distribution in
both North America and Europe and, actually, Australia
and New Zealand.
7269 In the last three years, I have been
working -- I have just recently finished, but I have
been working with Sam Feldman, his manager and partner
Steve Maclum, and their management client, Pattie
Maloney, who leads the Irish Traditional band the
Chieftans, as our director of BMG founded WorldMusic
label called Wicklar Records and also had international
distribution through BMG.
7270 Since then, I have signed an
executive producer deal with Network Productions, home
of Sarah McLachlan and other luminaries to compile a
series of CD releases in the -- I guess it is hard to
describe actually but world and jazz influenced
electronic music would be how I would best describe it.
7271 And I have also started teaching a
weekly management course, music management course at
the Trebas Institute in Vancouver, a institution of
learning for people who want to get into the music
business.
7272 And I am here today to speak on
behalf of Harvard Developments application for an NAC
smooth jazz FM licence. I was contacted last Fall when
Harvard applied for a Vancouver FM licence and was
invited to submit a concept for a radio show to be
considered for inclusion in their application. I came
up with a concept that we ended calling "Four A's into
future jazz".
7273 The idea is to program a weekly two
hour show which deals into the many realms of future
jazz and in particular, the more grooven electronic
basis acid jazz, afro-cuban jazz or latin jazz and that
type. These genres have had a great increase and
exposure and success over the last several years.
7274 Artists that could be used as
examples would be St. Germain, Sandi Brunot in France,
Bebelgo Alberto from Brazil, Medeski Martin & Wood,
Bonnavista Social Club which is, of course, usually
thought of as a world music release, but is very
much -- it could fit into a jazz category, I believe,
and current examples in Canada. The most notable one
would be Metalwood who won a couple Junos recently and
who have been just signed by Verve through a national
deal and are crossing that line between jazz and
electronic music, using D.J's and so on.
7275 So, it was a fairly forward thinking
idea and a bit to my surprise Harvard accepted it and
thought it would be a great edition as a two-hour
weekly program, I presume probably, you know, on a
Sunday evening or something like that.
7276 In the process of developing the
show, I became acquainted with some of the members of
the Harvard Group and I ended up becoming invited to be
part of the team which worked on the application for
Vancouver. So, I got my head around the overall format
that they had in mind and it was a great learning
experience for me and gave me some insight into how the
company worked and who their key players were for them
and I believe in the team that they have assembled and
I think that they would do a real class job with any
opportunity or licence that they might be granted.
7277 I am not an Ottawa resident and I
have never lived here, but I have had some experience
in this market. Artists that I worked with in the
recent past such as Alfawadi Allow and the new deal, I
have always done well in this market and I have known
some of the local promoters like Joe Rally of the Tulip
Festival, for example, and artists like Mighty PoPo,
and an acid jazz band called "HomeStyle" who I know do
quite well here.
7278 And I also know from my experience at
MoFunk Records that Ottawa was always good -- from the
acid jazz scene perspective has always been a good
territory for us.
7279 So, with my overall experience and
knowledge from the Canadian Industry, I have disagreed
on the situation. There is a large and enthusiastic
audience for jazz and jazz related music across the
country, proven amongst other things by the increased
growth and success at the International Jazz Festivals
in the major centres.
7280 To my knowledge, there is no
substantial radio service in Ottawa to serve the needs
of a growing jazz audience, a full power FM station
playing NAC and smooth jazz would have a great benefit
on the local music community and the overall arts
community as a good provider focal point for local
listeners and players.
7281 And so, in closing, I guess I would
just say that I know Harvard Developments to be a great
local broadcaster in Regina and some other territories
and have a very strong sense of community from what I
have seen. Yet, they are also not afraid to take a
chance with an idea like Four A's into future jazz
program, showing that they have a progressive attitude
towards the growth of music and audiences and ideas.
7282 I know that the Breeze, the name of
their application name, would serve this community well
and I am very happy to give them my full support to the
application and that's it.
7283 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Menzies. Mr. Menzies, have you been here for any
other part of the hearing?
7284 MR. MENZIES: No, I have not; just
this morning.
7285 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. Let me ask
you, since you seem to be knowledgeable in the jazz
area. There has been a lot of discussion about the
difficulty of distinguishing smooth jazz from jazz. Do
you share this confusion?
7286 MR. MENZIES: I do not envy anyone
who has the task of trying to put music in the boxes.
It has never really worked for me, as a person who has
tried to sell and market music for many, many years.
It is always the number one problem, you know, where
does a Jessica Cook song fits. Is it World? Is it
NAC? Is it smooth jazz? Is it pop? I do not know.
7287 What I do know is that in my
estimation, if I was forced to try and draw a line
between jazz and smooth jazz, I would say that it's
primarily a question of melody from a musical
standpoint and improvisation.
7288 Jazz is an improvisational music form
while there are melodies associated to traditional jazz
and to main stream jazz, whatever those categories are,
beep-up, what have you. The primary function in jazz,
I believe, is to improvise and solo and create new
ideas on the spot, not write them down.
7289 Smooth jazz, I think, is a more
melody based idiom. It is repetitive, in a way, the
regular jazz is not -- they have strong melodies. If
you look at the successes in this smooth jazz format,
always of course Kenny J comes to mind as a phoenix,
you know. He is so successful, we all probably hate
him now, but, you know, it's melody, right. You know
his songs by melody. He takes a solo on his soprano
saxophone in the middle of his song, but it is the
melody that comes home, that makes it something that
can become a hit or can resumate in a broader way.
7290 We don't necessarily think of current
successful jazz artists in that light. If we think of
John Scofield, let's say a big name jazz guitarist, we
don't think of the melodies of his songs or even Oscar
Peterson, let's say, for example, of a great Canadian
jazz artist, I don't start humming Oscar's tunes,
really when I think of Oscar, but I think it's a
smooth jazz artists, usually I can associate it to a
melody and ideas like that.
7291 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. So, it
is closer to easy listening than the pure form of jazz.
7292 MR. MENZIES: I think it is a very
close relationship to easy listening and that's why I,
at least, understood instinctively right away the
connection between NAC and smooth jazz. I think there
is a lot of commonality there because the smooth aspect
of smooth jazz I guess I would also say is just that.
It's sort of more A.C. type sound, softer sounds,
mellower sounds than perhaps straight ahead jazz would
have.
7293 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. It is
difficult for us because we are required to box to a
certain extent when people want to tell us they do not
know whether smooth jazz and jazz is the same thing,
but they know there is no smooth jazz station in Ottawa
and they want one.
7294 MR. MENZIES: Right. Yes, i is a
very difficult task. I think with the NAC smooth jazz
combination you have got, you know, for example artists
like, say, Holly Cole or Chardet or these sorts of --
could be A.C., could be pop, but there is a lot of jazz
influence as Stevie Dan, you know, that kind of thing.
It sits somewhere in-between the two categories frankly
and, therefore, maybe sits more comfortably at a
station that it is both.
7295 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Menzies. Thank you for your presentation.
7296 MR. MENZIES: Thank you.
7297 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Madame la Secrétaire,
s'il vous plaît.
7298 MS POIRIER: I would now like to
invite Nancy Oakley from the Great Canadian Theatre
Company. You do not look like a Nancy.
7299 MR. GLUSTEIN: As you probably have
guessed, I am not Nancy Oakley. My name is Mike
Glustein, I am filling in on her behalf. Madam
Chairperson and Commissioners, I am here on behalf of
the Great Canadian Theatre Company, which is Ottawa's
leading independent professional English theatre. I am
also here as a musician and a student of radio
broadcasting to put my support towards the Harvard
Developments application for a smooth jazz radio
station in Ottawa.
7300 The Great Canadian Theatre Company
has a six place subscription season in music series and
play development activity and it is presented each each
in intimate 236 theatres in the heart of Ottawa's
Italian neighbourhood. The season programming is a
blend of world premiers by Canadian writers and
Canadian classics.
7301 The Theatre Company was formed in
1975 and while they present mostly theatrical
performances, they produce their fin music series
called the "True stick waves" for 19 years. They
present Canada's finest musicians in an eight concert
series on Sunday nights. Over 2,000 people enjoy the
sounds of folk, eltic blues and, of course, the jazz
each season.
7302 I am intervening today on behalf of
the Harvard Developments application, as I have said,
for the Breeze, a new smooth jazz radio station for
Ottawa. I believe this will be a great new radio
format as it will appeal to a large segment of the
diverse population here in Ottawa Hull.
7303 The Breeze contacted the Great
Canadian Theatre Company back in January and asked how
they could help. I might say we, as a little side bar
i am reading a letter by Nancy Oakley, so if I switch
today in "we", I apologize. We sat down to figure out
how we could work together to help stimulate growth in
this market and they proposed to help us with our
acoustic wave concert series. This type of funding is
crucial to having a small series like ours continue.
7304 Basically, the Breeze has committed
to a minimum of ten thousand dollars ($10,000) per year
to help provide support for the performers in our
series. In addition to the cash funding, they have
also offered to provide a viable honour advertising and
support.
7305 We can help to feature our best local
talent plus national or international artists in these
series. We were trilled to be contacted by the Breeze
and are happy to see this type of support for artistic
community. We were pleased to see they were willing to
support small theatres as well as the larger venues.
7306 We are committed to our community and
believe that this is a new station that will make a
difference to the Ottawa Hull and the Ottawa Hull music
community. A new radio station will be good for
Ottawa. It will provide healthy competition to help
keep the economy healthy.
7307 Harvard Developments has put together
a solid application for the region. On behalf of the
Great Canadian Theatre Company and Acoustic Waves I am
pleased to provide our endorsement of the Harvard
Developments application for the Breeze Ottawa smooth
jazz.
7308 On a more personal note, being a
local musician, I know how important it is to have
venues available to perform our chosen profession and
with all the clubs that are closing down in the city
unfortunately, there is so few venues to ply our trade
and when you hear about radio stations willing to help
out community groups and local musicians, it's just --
because all it takes is one show in front of even five,
ten people to give somebody the confidence they need to
take their career to the next step so they decided they
want to do it.
7309 And having radio stations and
companies like Harvard Developments willing to take the
next step in supporting musicians like myself and like
other jazz artists in the area, I, myself, am not a
jazz artists, but I am in the same boat as they are,
all musicians kind of form a brotherhood of poverty, we
know how important it is to have avenues like this and
to have support and have a place to play, you know,
because we can perform in front of our best friends and
our parents as many times as you we want, it's not
quite the same feel as getting out there.
7310 And so, that's why I think something
like this is extremely important and I look forward to
answering any questions you may have to my best of my
ability. As I have said, this statement was written
and I am reading it and putting it into record. So,
thank you very much.
7311 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Glustein. Commissioner Cardozo, please.
7312 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks, madam
Chair. Thank you. It is Mr. Glustein?
7313 MR. GLUSTEIN: Glustein, yes.
7314 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can I ask then
what is your role with GCTC?
7315 MR. GLUSTEIN: I have been a
volunteer there in the past and I am an avid supporter
of the company.
7316 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I will keep my
questions in the light of that so they won't be too
detailed because you may not have had the same degree
of involvement in this particular issue as perhaps
Nancy Oakley would have had.
7317 But from what you understand,
would -- I am quite aware of GCTC and a lot of
different stuff you do, and I have seen a lot of plays
and stage shows there so I am quite familiar with the
kinds of things you do.
7318 What is your sense of whether this
series would be able to happen if you didn't have the
kind of support from Harvard?
7319 MR. GLUSTEIN: As far as I have
understood from reading different correspondences and
talking to different people, the series is in financial
trouble because, as you know, the Great Canadian
Theatre Company is a community theatre that depends a
lot on local contributions and donations to survive and
as larger scale theatre companies like the National
Arts Centre start bringing in more musical acts, it's
harder and harder for the smaller venues to compete.
7320 So I wouldn't say that this donation
is the end all, be all of it, but I certainly think
that they would be in dire financial trouble if the
donations do not occur.
7321 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And have you
had the series going on before?
7322 MR. GLUSTEIN: Oh, they have had the
series for the past 19 years. They have eight shows,
but, as I said, it has been flying by the seat of their
pants and just breaking even or taking a loss and
depending on the rest of the company to pull it out.
But it's a fantastic series, if you ever get a chance
to go see these artists in acoustic settings. I know
Jann Arden performed a few years back in a small
acoustic setting and it was a tremendous success, and
to see artists like that in that type of venue is a lot
different than going to be soon to be smoke-free clubs
and seeing them perform there. So it's a very special
thing.
7323 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So with CGTC
what you have is a number of different types of series
because you have theatre, music. Are you structured
over the year as having a number of different series
that overlap each other through the year?
7324 MR. GLUSTEIN: Throughout the season,
I think it's over a six-month period, the have six
different plays, different running times, and then
during the year every couple of Sundays they have eight
performances of an acoustic waves series. So it's
eight performers in a season and six different plays
which run for varying different times, so back and
forth. Also they used to have a huge -- they started
off with the Canadian Improv Games at the Great
Canadian Theatre Company and that became a huge
spectacle in itself and they have to move it to the
National Arts Centre.
7325 But it got started off in the
community roots of the Great Canadian Theatre Company
which is a very community oriented theatre from my
experience.
7326 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Now, apart
from having the radio there that would play a lot of
NAC/smooth jazz, what does this series really do for
the artists because if I think of who listens to --
when you get your song on the radio, thousands and
thousands of people can listen to. When you have it at
GCTC which is a nice intimate theatre, there is quite a
finite number of people who hear it.
7327 What kind of difference does a series
like this make to the development of the industry?
7328 MR. GLUSTEIN: As a musician, there
is a big difference between having one song on the
radio and then people know about you and find out who
you are, but if they come see you perform, it adds a
whole different aspect to your career.
7329 Playing live is a rush that is better
than any drug available and what having an acoustic
wave series like this does, not only it propels an
artist to a different level, you know, they have to
perfect their craft in order to pass it off live
because anybody can sound good in a studio. I mean,
Britney Spears is a perfect example of that.
I apologize to Britney Spears fans on the panel.
7330 In order to be a successful musician
you have to be able to perform in a live setting, and
having people, allow them the opportunity to come see
you in an intimate setting like this will do nothing
but help accelerate you as a musician and as a talent
and that benefits other musicians and talents as well
because if I am a jazz artist and I put on a hugely
successful show, and word of mouth is buzzing about
this great jazz artist, other jazz artists are going to
benefit by it because then there will be a buzz about
not just myself, but about the industry as a whole.
So it will start a whole new ground of support.
7331 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks for
that.
7332 What kind of a musician are you?
7333 MR. GLUSTEIN: I'm actually a rock
musician, but --
7334 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And there is
enough of that kind of stuff.
7335 MR. GLUSTEIN: Exactly, we are dime a
dozen.
--- Laughter / Rires
7336 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks very
much.
7337 MR. GLUSTEIN: You are very welcome.
7338 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks, Madam
Chair.
7339 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Glustein.
7340 Perhaps this would be a good time to
take our lunch break. We will begin at a quarter to
two with, I believe, the Infinity intervenors unless
there are intervenors we missed this morning who are
here and we will hear them first.
7341 Nous reprendrons à deux heures moins
le quart pour entendre les intervenants dans la requête
de Infinity ou tout autre intervenant que nous aurions
manqués ce matin.
7342 Oh, il semble y avoir un changement.
7343 We will hear one more intervenor who
cannot be here tomorrow and was slated for tomorrow.
7344 Alors nous entendrons, Madame la
Secrétaire --?
7345 Mme POIRIER: M. Alain Faubert de
l'école des Cépages. Il s'en vient.
INTERVENTION
7346 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Allez-y, Monsieur
Faubert.
7347 M. FAUBERT: Madame la Présidente,
mesdames et messieurs les Commissaires et membres du
Conseil, bonjour.
7348 C'est avec ferveur que je vous
présente le mémoire d'appui à la demande de licence de
radiodiffusion de la requérante, la Fondation Radio
Enfant, pour une station de radio francophone dédiée
aux enfants et aux adolescents de la région de
l'Outaouais et de l'Est ontarien.
7349 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Monsieur Faubert, pas
trop vite parce que nous avons l'interprétation
simultanée et c'est très difficile.
7350 M. FAUBERT: D'accord.
7351 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors ralentissez
votre débit, s'il vous plaît.
7352 M. FAUBERT: Pardonnez-moi. C'est
peut-être l'effervescence. Je viens d'arriver.
7353 Alors je me présente donc. Alain
Faubert, je suis enseignant du 3e cycle de l'école des
Cépages et représentant aussi les intérêts de l'école
et du comité de gestion de la Radio ÉCO -- c'est-à-dire
école des Cépages en Outaouais -- dont je fais partie.
7354 L'école des Cépages est un
établissement d'enseignement primaire situé sur la rue
Nobert près de la Montée Paiement à Gatineau. Elle
fait partie d'un réseau de 32 écoles à la commission
scolaire des Draveurs. Cette école, construite en
1998, offre des services éducatifs à près de 620 élèves
du quartier des Terrasses-Paiement.
7355 Au niveau du 3e cycle, on retrouve
160 élèves à l'intérieur de six groupes. Depuis 1999,
les enseignants de ce niveau travaillent sur
l'appropriation de la réforme actuellement en cours au
niveau du 1er cycle. Ces enseignants ont opté pour
l'ouverture sur le monde comme thématique générale à
l'intérieur d'un projet d'éducation aux médias.
7356 Trois volets sont prévus dans le
programme d'éducation aux médias de l'école des
Cépages. En 1999, les élèves de la 6e année,
accompagnés des enseignants de l'école et d'un comité
de parents, ont fondé le journal scolaire, Ces Pages en
Action! qui en est à son volume 2 cette année.
7357 En septembre 2000, six enseignants se
sont regroupés au niveau du 3e cycle pour poursuivre le
volet de la presse écrite. Le journal comprend une
quinzaine de rubriques sélectionnées par les élèves.
Ces derniers procèdent à la recherche d'information par
entrevues ou par d'autres médiums afin de rédiger des
articles d'intérêt.
7358 Le résultat final est imprimé en
format tabloïd tiré à 550 exemplaires. De plus, il est
publié en format Web sur un site Internet de l'école.
Ce journal est publié à chaque étape de l'année
scolaire.
7359 En septembre 2000, les enseignants et
les élèves du 3e cycle ont entrepris le développement
des volets reportage vidéo et radio communautaire, donc
c'est tout nouveau. Le volet reportage vidéo permet
aux jeunes d'être mieux sensibilisés aux différents
messages médiatiques que l'on retrouve à la télévision.
7360 Les élèves apprennent à réaliser un
scénario dans lequel ils désirent faire passer un
message. Ils sont initiés à la technique et
expérimentent le tournage vidéo.
7361 La Radio ÉCO permet l'expression des
enfants de la maternelle jusqu'au 3e cycle du primaire
et fait découvrir les talents de tous dans le respect
de chacun. La diffusion sur la fréquence 89,9 comprend
des productions élaborées par les jeunes telles que
poèmes, contes, histoires, chansons, radio théâtre, et
cetera. Ces productions musicales aussi utilisées
s'adressent à un public de 5 à 12 ans rarement entendus
sur les ondes de la radio commerciale.
7362 Ces nouveaux médiums sont ceux de
l'école et de la communauté dans laquelle elle est
située. Ils s'adressent aux élèves, aux parents, aux
différents personnels de l'école des Cépages, aux
membres de toute la communauté des Terrasses-Paiement à
Gatineau, à la population environnante de l'Outaouais
ainsi qu'aux personnes du monde entier qui ont accès à
Internet.
7363 Dans un rapport publié par L'UNESCO
en 1984, on peut lire :
"Par éducation aux médias, il
convient d'entendre toutes les
manières d'étudier, d'apprendre
et d'enseigner à tous les
niveaux -- et en toutes
circonstances l'histoire, la
création, l'utilisation et
l'évaluation des médias en tant
qu'arts plastiques et
techniques, ainsi que la place
qu'occupent les médias dans la
société, leur impact social, les
implications de la communauté
médiatisée, la participation, la
modification du mode de
perception qu'ils engendrent, le
rôle du travail créateur et
l'accès aux médias".
7364 Selon un extrait du Programme des
programmes produit par le ministère de l'Éducation,
toujours dans le sens de la réforme :
"Les médias alimentent, animent
et influencent sans arrêt la vie
intellectuelle, affective et
sociale des enfants. Les
enfants aiment la télévision et
tous les autres médias comme ils
aiment l'ordinateur et les
technologies issues de
l'informatique où ils retrouvent
des éléments de plaisir,
d'instantanéité, de rapidité et
d'efficacité. Les médias
plongent les enfants dans la
négociation constante de
l'imaginaire avec le réel, de
l'émotion, de l'affectivité et
de l'intuition avec la
rationalité. L'expérience
quotidienne des enfants avec les
médias implique chez eux une
activité intelligente qui les
introduits à une diversité
d'informations, de connaissances
et d'expériences psychiques
déterminantes. Elle les oblige
à choisir, à faire des liens, à
traiter l'information, à donner
du sens. Les médias constituent
un domaine d'expérience de vie.
L'enfant y puise nombre des
ingrédients avec lesquels il se
construit son identité
personnelle et sa vision du
monde, ses modèles de santé, de
bien-être et de comportement
socio-relationnel, une
représentation de
l'environnement physique, de
l'univers du travail, de la
consommation et de la vie
collective et de la citoyenneté.
Les médias exercent également
une influence sur son rapport
avec la connaissance, les
apprentissages, la motivation
scolaire. En éduquant l'enfant
aux médias, l'école accompagne
l'enfant dans ce domaine
d'expérience de vie et l'aide à
symboliser ce qu'il a éprouvé,
puis à intégrer de manière
personnelle ce qu'il apprend à
l'école et dans les média".
7365 Les compétences doivent correspondre
à celles visées par le programme de formation du M.É.Q.
dont la liste apparaît dans le mémoire soumis au
Conseil. Entre autres, on retrouve le langage, la
technologie, la représentation, la typologie, le public
et les productions.
7366 Tout comme les autres écoles des
commissions scolaires du Québec, il est temps pour
nous, les membres du personnel de l'école des Cépages,
de revoir nos méthodes d'enseignement et d'intervention
et de s'ajuster avec la réalité sociale dans laquelle
nous vivons.
7367 Les choses ne sont plus comme elles
étaient. Il faut donc adapter l'école de façon à mieux
répondre aux besoins des jeunes et ainsi favoriser leur
réussite. La réforme nécessite un changement de
vision, d'attitudes et de pratiques. Ce changement
s'opère graduellement depuis septembre 2000 avec
l'implantation de la réforme. Cette réforme a pour
mission de donner à tous les jeunes la chance de
devenir des citoyens autonomes, capables de participer
à la mise en place d'une société plus juste, plus
démocratique et plus égalitaire.
7368 Tout au long de son cheminement
scolaire, des compétences transversales liées à la
réalité quotidienne permettront à l'élève de développer
son esprit critique, d'analyser l'information,
d'améliorer sa méthodologie, de développer la
communication et ses relations avec les autres.
7369 L'implantation d'une nouvelle station
de radio communautaire desservant les régions de
l'Outaouais et de l'Est ontarien permettra aux enfants
et aux adolescents de mieux répondre à leurs besoins de
communication et de développement culturel. Le projet
est basé sur la participation des parents qui
s'associent aux enseignants et à la direction de
l'établissement pour l'organisation de ce projet.
7370 Pour chaque école, un comité de radio
(de 5 à 8 personnes) est responsable du projet et
supervise l'ensemble des activités. Les seuls artisans
de la radio sont les enfants qui, à tour de rôle,
viennent présenter une émission et manipuler les
équipements. Les écoles participantes se partagent une
grille horaire. Un ensemble d'outils pédagogiques et
techniques ainsi que des services de soutien sont
offerts par l'Atelier Radio Enfant (ARE).
7371 Cette véritable station de radio
diffuse directement de l'école primaire, laissant
s'exprimer les enfants autant de vive voix au
microphone que par les entrevues, les choix musicaux,
les histoires, etc. Chaque équipe (deux par classe
selon les besoins) réalise en moyenne deux heures de
radio par étape selon une thématique définie
préalablement avec les élèves.
7372 Une formation est offerte aux
personnels de l'école. La production et les
enregistrements se préparent à l'avance pour les
classes de la maternelle et du premier cycle (selon les
besoins toujours), encadrés par le personnel enseignant
et les parents. Les enseignants et les parents sont
invités à appuyer cette initiative.
7373 L'implantation d'une nouvelle radio
communautaire dans l'Outaouais et dans l'Est ontarien
est très importante pour toutes les écoles. Notre
établissement n'a pas le matériel ni le soutien
technique au niveau des opérations et de la formation.
C'est grâce au parrainage de l'organisme Atelier Radio
Enfant, dirigé par M. Michel Delorme et plusieurs
bénévoles, que le projet de Radio ÉCO a pu voir le jour
à l'école des Cépages.
7374 Avec le parrainage de la Radio
Enfant/Ado, tous les organismes oeuvrant auprès des
jeunes pourront bénéficier de cette expertise afin de
mieux répondre au plan d'action de leur milieu.
7375 A l'école des Cépages, le projet de
Radio Enfant/Ado possède les mêmes finalités que celles
de notre milieu, soit de permettre l'expression des
enfants à travers un médium simple et accessible, de
permettre un apprentissage du média, de favoriser la
découverte des stations de radio pour enfants au
Canada, de favoriser la découverte de la communauté
locale, régionale et nationale, de favoriser et
valoriser le développement de la culture francophone,
de favoriser la gestion de projets, la coopération,
l'entrepreneuriat, pour découvrir la richesse aussi
d'une radio produite et animée par des enfants.
7376 Il est donc essentiel, pour notre
organisation, que la Fondation Radio Enfant/Ado puisse
obtenir la licence de diffusion. C'est un événement
unique au Canada qui permettra aux enfants d'avoir
enfin 1'occasion de se faire entendre.
7377 Au nom de l'école des Cépages, le
comité de gestion de la Radio ÉCO (constitué de 8
parents, d'un membre du personnel et de deux membres de
la direction de l'école) approuve la mise en place de
ce nouveau service et assure catégoriquement son
implication à sa gestion, à sa production et à son
financement.
7378 La politique du CRTC mentionne
"qu'une station de radio communautaire est possédée et
contrôlée par un organisme sans but lucratif dont la
structure permet aux membres de la collectivité en
général d'y adhérer et de participer à sa gestion, à
son exploitation et à sa programmation".
7379 Or, on constatera que l'école des
Cépages a une part active à l'implantation de la
station CIRC-FM puisque le comité de gestion de la
Radio ÉCO a un de ses membres sur le comité
d'implantation. A l'école des Cépages, le comité de
gestion est directement impliqué dans le dossier de la
radio communautaire. Il exerce ainsi une contribution à
la gestion, à la programmation et à son exploitation.
7380 Les élèves du troisième cycle de
l'école des Cépages auront vécu, cette année,
l'élaboration de trois émissions de radio: une première
émission a eu lieu les 3 et 4 novembre 2000. La
deuxième émission a été radiodiffusée les 12, 13 et 14
mars 2001 dans le cadre des Rendez-vous de la
francophonie. La programmation a alors duré 36 heures,
c'est-à-dire de 8h le matin à 20h, pendant trois jours
consécutifs.
7381 En tout, 13 écoles de l'Outaouais et
de l'Est ontarien ont participé à cette activité riche
en émotions. Une troisième émission aura lieu en juin
2001. L'expérience est une réussite à tout point de
vue. Des commentaires élogieux ont été transmis aux
enseignants sur la réalisation de l'activité. Ces
derniers ont été très enthousiasmés par les productions
des élèves. L'école a reçu beaucoup d'appels de
parents concernant l'activité à leur façon.
7382 Vous avez entre vos mains également
une enveloppe contenant une pétition pour répondre
justement aux besoin qu'on a à l'école des Cépages
d'obtenir une radio permanente.
7383 L'école a ouvert ses portes à la
communauté lors de l'émission de clôture du 14 mars
2001 en invitant les auditeurs à se présenter au studio
et à venir commenter en direct leur opinion sur ce
projet. Le comité de gestion de la radio a également
soumis à tous les élèves, les parents et le personnel
de l'école un sondage sur ce que l'activité leur a
apporté et si elle répondait à un réel besoin.
7384 Il est primordial qu'une telle
activité soit bien encadrée avec des structures solides
et des ressources de qualité pour le développement de
scénarios pédagogiques signifiants.
7385 La Commission scolaire des Draveurs a
permis la libération d'une enseignante de l'école de
l'Escalade dans le cadre du programme de l'École
orientante du M.É.Q. Cette enseignante devient ainsi
une ressource importante dans le développement de
ressources pédagogiques pour les enseignants.
7386 A l'école des Cépages, les
enseignants du troisième cycle travaillent à identifier
les balises du programme d'éducation aux médias de la
prochaine année scolaire pour mieux répondre au
développement des compétences disciplinaires et
transversales des jeunes. Avec la direction de
l'école, ces enseignants se penchent sur la possibilité
de demander une subvention auprès des Fonds Jeunesse et
du programme de l'École orientante afin d'assurer un
encadrement et des ressources pour tous les enseignants
et cela, même au-delà de l'école des Cépages. C'est là
une preuve tangible de l'intérêt de la Commission
scolaire des Draveurs dans ce dossier.
7387 Au nom des membres du comité de
gestion de la Radio ÉCO de l'école des Cépages, je
crois important d'obtenir de la part du CRTC le droit
de radiodiffusion à la Fondation Radio Enfant. Je
tiens à vous remercier de l'occasion que vous nous avez
offerte de vous exprimer notre plus vif attachement à
ce projet. Nous espérons que vous pourrez reconnaître
le bien-fondé de nos recommandations.
7388 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, monsieur
Faubert. Monsieur Faubert, vous êtes ici comme
représentant l'école des Cépages. Donc, c'est une
occasion peut-être pour nous de mieux comprendre le
financement de tout ça.
7389 Dans votre intervention écrite, il
n'y a pas de pagination, mais je pense vers -- à la
septième page, je ne sais pas si vous l'avez avec vous,
vous donnez des chiffres de l'équipement nécessaire et
vous indiquez, évidemment, qu'une sérieuse contrainte,
c'est l'aspect technique et l'investissement requis
pour avoir les équipements nécessaires et vous parlez,
je crois, oui, d'équipement mobile.
7390 Les équipements, premièrement, qui
sont -- donc, il y a une ventilation au bas de la page,
est-ce qu'il s'agit des équipements mobiles ou des
équipements de l'école des Cépages? Comment ça
fonctionne?
7391 M. FAUBERT: Ce qui apparaît dans le
tableau, ce sont les équipements que l'école a achetés
de ses propres fonds et il y a également un prêt de
matériel qui a été remis par l'atelier Radio Enfant
dans le cadre de l'expérience que nous avons tentée
durant le mois de novembre et le mois de mars.
7392 Ces équipements-là, c'est pour
refléter un peu les valeurs que nous aurions dû
normalement dépenser si nous avions à louer de tels
équipements. Alors, ce sont des montants qui
apparaissent là à titre indicatif.
7393 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors, si je
comprends bien, il y a certains de ces équipements-là
qui ont été achetés avec les fonds de l'école des
Cépages?
7394 M. FAUBERT: Exactement.
7395 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et d'autres
équipements qui vous ont été prêtés sur une base mobile
et qui vous auraient coûté ces sommes-là si vous les
aviez achetés?
7396 M. FAUBERT: C'est ça. En fait,
loués parce que acheter c'est beaucoup plus cher, oui.
7397 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Maintenant, vous
comme -- mais, là, quand il y aura -- s'il y avait
diffusion à compter de 122 heures par semaine,
comment -- à ce moment-là, est-ce que ces
équipements-là seraient-ils satisfaisants pour fournir
les heures, pour fournir à d'autres intervenants ou
d'autres écoles la possibilité de préparer ou de
produire beaucoup plus d'heures de diffusion qui seront
nécessaires, comparé aux trois jours où vous avez
diffusé?
7398 M. FAUBERT: Oui. C'est sûr que si
on entreprenait ce projet-là de façon plus permanente,
donc de façon plus régulière aussi à chacune des
étapes, l'achat du matériel pourrait être partagé avec
d'autres écoles de notre secteur et de là, pouvoir
permettre de partager ce matériel à l'intérieur de
notre secteur.
7399 Cependant, en attendant, vu que nous
n'avons pas les fonds tout de suite, l'atelier Radio
Enfant avait soumis une proposition de nous louer les
équipements pour le temps que nous aurions besoin pour
la diffusion.
7400 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Est-ce que, à ce
moment-là, ces équipements-là sont transportés à
l'école des Cépages ou vous transportez les enfants
dans un autre site où l'équipement est --
7401 M. FAUBERT: Non. C'est plus
pratique d'avoir l'équipement à l'école.
7402 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors, c'est de
l'équipement mobile finalement.
7403 M. FAUBERT: Mobile, exactement, oui.
7404 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Qui est ajouté à
celui que l'école des Cépages a déjà acheté?
7405 M. FAUBERT: Oui.
7406 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et la même chose se
ferait pour d'autres écoles qui s'impliqueraient dans
la diffusion.
7407 M. FAUBERT: Le fonctionnement serait
similaire, oui.
7408 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Est-ce que vous
entreverriez l'école des Cépages comme produisant plus
d'heures si --
7409 M. FAUBERT: Nous avons déjà fait
l'expérience cette année et nous pensons faire
davantage les années suivantes. C'est sûr que nous
avons un pas de plus si on se compare avec les écoles
qui n'ont pas encore tenté l'expérience. Donc, nous
serions un peu l'école pilote qui pourrait aider les
autres écoles à entreprendre le projet. Donc, c'est un
peu une ressource pour ces écoles-là afin de pouvoir
démarrer dans leur propre milieu.
7410 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Mais vous verriez
l'école des Cépages beaucoup plus impliquée dans la
production que ce qui a été nécessaire pour trois jours
de diffusion.
7411 M. FAUBERT: Oui. Cette année, le
projet de Radio Enfant a impliqué les écoles de façon à
ce qu'on participe seulement dans le cadre des
Francophonies. Pour le mois de mars, nous, on en a
fait davantage. On en a fait une émission par étape,
donc, à chaque trois mois à peu près.
7412 C'est ça, à chaque trois mois on
faisait une émission, donc nous serions prêts, nous, à
préparer autant d'émissions que les écoles secondaires,
par exemple.
7413 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Vous vous verriez
alors produire pas une émission à tous les trois mois,
mais peut-être à toutes les trois semaines?
7414 M. FAUBERT: Peut-être. L'objectif
que nous tentons de fixer au troisième cycle, ce serait
de préparer une émission à chaque mois, de sorte qu'il
y ait une rotation au niveau des classes. Si nous
avons sept classes l'an prochain au niveau du troisième
cycle chaque classe pourrait contribuer au niveau des
émissions, soit de façon -- à chaque semaine préparer
une partie de l'émission en fonction de l'émission
générale qui serait diffusée à la fin du mois ou selon
les besoins. Si c'est plus fréquent que ça, nous irons
encore plus loin.
7415 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Maintenant, dans
votre présentation orale aujourd'hui, à la page 6, le
dernier paragraphe au bas de la page, vous nous parlez
de Radio ÉCO constituée de huit parents, d'un membre du
personnel. Là, vous parlez du personnel de l'école des
Cépages?
7416 M. FAUBERT: Demande du personnel de
l'école, oui.
7417 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et de deux membres de
la direction de l'école des Cépages, encore une fois?
7418 M. FAUBERT: Oui.
7419 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Approuve la mise en
place de ce nouveau service et il assure
catégoriquement son implication à sa gestion, à sa
production et à son financement. Quelle serait la part
au financement du projet de la part de Radio ÉCO?
7420 M. FAUBERT: La façon de pouvoir
participer aux étapes que j'ai énumérées là, surtout
celle du financement, ce serait au niveau d'organiser
des activités de levée de fonds au niveau de notre
école où les parents seraient directement impliqués
dans cette activité-là. C'est une partie.
7421 Il y a l'autre partie aussi au niveau
des subventions qu'on peut recevoir des gouvernements.
Je prends, par exemple, Rescole qui contribue
généreusement dans les écoles où on favorise justement
le développement des technologies, des nouvelles
technologies.
7422 Alors, ces parents-là pourraient
assister les enseignants à développer des projets à
l'intérieur de leur groupe.
7423 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Verriez-vous Radio
ÉCO aussi s'impliquer dans l'exercice d'obtenir des
fonds existants des ministères ou des groupes
gouvernementaux?
7424 M. FAUBERT: L'idée nous a effleuré
l'esprit avec l'école orientante qui fait partie,
justement, du Ministre de l'éducation du Québec qui a
débloqué des fonds afin d'aider les écoles à favoriser
la réussite scolaire chez nos jeunes. Et avec ces
possibilités de subvention-là nous pourrions dégager
justement des enseignants qui pourraient être
d'excellentes ressources auprès des enseignants pour
les épauler dans l'élaboration de futures émissions de
radio ou, encore, au niveau des médias à l'intérieur du
projet d'éducation immédiate que nous tentons de
développer à notre école.
7425 Alors, c'est de façon globale autour
des médias que nous cherchons justement à trouver des
moyens de financement pour aider ces enseignants-là à
pouvoir épauler les enseignants, les autres
enseignants.
7426 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Nous vous remercions,
monsieur Faubert, et bonne journée demain.
Apparemment, vous -- combien d'enfants est-ce que vous
accompagnez?
7427 M. FAUBERT: Nous partons demain pour
un voyage à Québec avec 75 élèves.
7428 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Soixante. Combien de
professeurs?
7429 M. FAUBERT: Nous sommes 16 adultes,
incluant des parents avec nous.
7430 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Vous avez des parents
aussi et trois fouets!
7431 M. FAUBERT: Pardon?
7432 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et trois fouets, pour
les garder tous ensemble.
7433 M. FAUBERT: Ce sont des anges
cornus, alors ça devrait bien aller.
7434 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci beaucoup.
Merci, monsieur Faubert. Nous allons maintenant
prendre la pause pour le lunch. Nous reprendrons après
le déjeuner à 2 h 00 maintenant. Je suppose que nous
aurons des gens ici à deux heures moins quart qui nous
attendrons avec impatience.
7435 We will be back after lunch at two.
Thank you.
--- Upon recessing at 1245 / Suspension à 1245
--- Upon resuming at 1405 / Reprise à 1405
7436 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome back to
Phase III of our hearing.
7437 Alors nous vous disons bonjour encore
une fois et nous poursuivons avec la troisième phase de
l'audience.
7438 Madame Poirier, s'il vous plaît.
7439 Mme POIRIER: Merci, Madame la
Présidente.
7440 The first intervener will be Tonya
Lee Williams.
INTERVENTION
7441 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, Ms
Williams.
7442 MS WILLIAMS: Good afternoon.
7443 Madam Chair and Commissioners, I
can't tell you now excited I am to be participating in
this important broadcast hearing in support of Infinity
Broadcasting. As a Canadian visible minority in the
entertainment industry, I have been very outspoken
about the changes that must take place in Canada to
ensure that every effort is made to allow visible
minorities more opportunities in front of, and, more
importantly, behind the scenes in the entertainment
industry.
7444 I have been a Canadian actress for
over 20 years, but the source of my income has usually
come from the U.S., as is the case with many successful
visible minorities who are in the entertainment field
in Canada.
7445 My name is Tonya Lee Williams and I
presently, and for the last 11 years, star on the
daytime drama, The Young and the Restless.
7446 As chair of Advocacy for the Black
Film and Video Network in Canada, I felt it more than
my duty and my responsibility to fly here from Los
Angeles and inform all of you that we have a serious
problem in Canada in regards to the lack of opportunity
broadcasters have afforded visible minorities. Most
people focus on the lack of racially diverse faces in
front of the cameras. I say we have a more serious
issue: the lack of racially diverse faces and voices
behind the scenes, and, in particular, in the executive
positions of broadcasters' offices. Until there is a
concerted effort to place visible minorities in
decision-making areas of production and programming, we
are never going to solve this problem.
7447 In the United States, the NWAACP and
other lobby groups have worked diligently to force the
hand of many broadcasting companies to create visible
minority watch groups made up of visible minorities
within their companies to ensure that the proper steps
are being taken to level the playing field in front of
and behind the scenes in the entertainment industry.
Aggressive apprenticeship programs for executives in
the areas of development and programming have been
developed with the intent that these apprentices will
be streamed into those networks over an 18-month time
frame. Regrettably, we are not as fortunate in Canada
to have such aggressive apprenticeship programs in
place. While Canada's employment equity provisions are
a positive step, in my view they could go even further.
Tougher measures must also be entertained in Canada in
order to change the severely underestimated support of
visible minorities in the entertainment industry,
particularly in television and radio. Here is a viable
opportunity for us to do something to slow down the
talent drain that is such a concern to our Canadian
entertainment industry. We must create opportunity for
our visible minorities or we are going to lose them to
other countries who are aggressively vying for their
talents.
7448 It was with this in mind that I
created Real World Film Festival, a film festival whose
mandate is to program films, videos, animation,
documentaries and music video made by and/or featuring
visible minorities. Our inaugural festival was this
past April and I couldn't even come close to explaining
to you the overwhelming pride that visible minorities
felt for this festival. Part of their pride was for
the festival itself, that featured top quality
entertainment and seminars. The other part of their
pride came from the fact that I, a visible minority, is
the founder and president of this festival, that 10 of
the 11 board of directs are visible minorities, that
our staff and volunteers are made up of 99 per cent
visible minorities and that our panels of guests were
80 per cent visible minorities. Never before had a
feat like this existed in Canada.
7449 Real World Film Festival will be a
yearly event and I believe it's the very least I could
do for this vastly growing group in Canada that is
starved for recognition. As someone who understands
these issues on a very personal level, you can
understand why I stand before you today and implore you
to support change.
7450 I can't tell you how shocked and
dismayed I was to hear that Ottawa was the only major
city in Canada that did not have a multicultural radio
station. It's embarrassing to think that in a country
so racially and culturally diverse as Canada, our
nation's capital, where our Parliament sits in office,
not one station is reflective of the voices that make
up Canada.
7451 How is this possible? I feel, as a
Canadian, that this is an unacceptable situation and
must not be allowed to continue. If visible minorities
are to increase their presence and participation in
Canadian broadcasting, if they are to have a greater
input in the decision-making role, if they are to
advance all aspects of their participation to the next
level, then it must begin with ownership.
7452 The Commission has a unique
opportunity to license a visible-minority-owned ethnic
station in Ottawa/Hull and this would send a message
throughout the broadcasting industry that making
visible minorities a part of the ownership structure of
Canadian broadcasting is important and keeping with
raising their participation to the highest level. It
would be a lost opportunity if the CRTC were not to
approve this radio station for the Ottawa/Hull, a radio
station that would speak to the needs of the hundreds
and thousands of ethnic Canadians residing within the
nation's capital.
7453 In the decision-making process let's
not assume that just because a potential new station
owner is a visible minority is, in itself, a guarantee
that the station will address the needs of the many
ethnic communities that it proposes to serve. In the
case of Infinity Broadcasting, however, its visible
minority owners have clearly demonstrated their
sensitivity to the real needs of the multicultural
communities because they have walked the talk. As
professional broadcasters, they have persevered the
same obstacles and prejudices from the mainstream
establishment. The level of sensitivity and
understanding that Infinity has for visible minorities
and all ethnic Canadians is reflected in the model of
radio stations they have opted to pursue.
7454 What is truly significant is that
Infinity has put the decision-making power on
programming and production matters directly in the
hands of the respective cultural communities. It is
equally significant that they have agreed to provide
the training, education, technical and production
infrastructure to each cultural group in order to
better insure that they will produce quality
programming and that they will be successful in meeting
that challenge.
7455 Madam Chair and Commissioners,
experienced, sensitive visible minority owners cannot
be legislated, they are grown, in the same way that
Neeti and Renu Ray have grown over the past 21 years as
visible minority broadcasters. Today, they stand ready
to take their rightful place at the ethnic broadcasting
ownership table and to achieve greater things for
multicultural broadcasters in Ottawa/Hull and
elsewhere. Please give Infinity and the 19 cultural
communities throughout the National Capital Region an
opportunity. Thank you.
7456 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms
Williams.
7457 Commissioner Pennefather, please.
7458 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you,
Madam Chair.
7459 Thank you, Ms Williams, for joining
us --
7460 MS WILLIAMS: Thank you.
7461 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: -- and
coming all this way to share with us your thoughts, not
just on this application but on some general issues,
which I think are very important. I do have a tendency
to call you Olivia, so you will forgive me if I slip --
7462 MS WILLIAMS: That's fine.
7463 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: -- into
that from time to time.
7464 I think you have raised some
important points in your letter and today.
7465 MS WILLIAMS: I'm just looking for my
glasses, excuse me -- my other glasses.
7466 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I will let
you do that.
7467 MS WILLIAMS: I have them. Thank
you.
7468 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Here and
in your written letter, you do raise the point of
ownership, ethnic ownership and diversity in the
market, but I wanted to get to a couple of other
points, very briefly.
7469 Congratulations, by the way, on your
festival --
7470 MS WILLIAMS: Thank you.
7471 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: -- but if
I'm correct, the festival covers largely film and
television -- if I'm right -- but if we could comment
on radio, in particular, and its value, in terms of
diversity of voices, because we are discussing a radio
situation here and, in particular, what kind of
apprenticeship do you think Infinity is going to offer.
7472 MS WILLIAMS: Well, in terms of
radio, if you are talking about the vast number of
immigrants that are coming into this country -- I know,
my parents are originally Jamaican -- radio in many of
the countries that these immigrants are coming from is
larger than television and film. Radio is the
consistent way that they have found that they
communicate with one another, they find out what is
actually happening in our country and that they are
actually learning a lot about Canada through the radio,
more than television and film.
7473 What I like about Infinity is the
visible minorities, who are actually running this
organization, have been in the wonderful position of
understanding how hard it was for them to get to the
position that they are now, and within this radio
station -- I'm assuming, and from their conversations
that I have had with them -- that they are also going
to be training people so that there can be more
executive position people within broadcasting for
radio.
7474 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: The second
comment, if you would -- you raised it yourself -- one
of the challenges of an ethnic radio undertaking is in
fact to serve many groups with quality programming. Do
you have any comment on the capacity of an ethnic
station to serve as many groups as they have said they
would and yet still find that it's quality programming,
from your own experience and your own discussions with
communities?
7475 MS WILLIAMS: Yes. I'm thinking that
there are a lot of radio stations right now that really
speak to one group, and there are several radio
stations that speak to a mainstream group. I think
there's a large number of visible minorities -- and
when I say "visible minorities", I include language
barriers on every level that are in this country. And,
in particular, right now in Ottawa there's not even one
station that sort of speaks to that group, which is a
largely under-supported group. So I don't see
Infinity's broadcasting station as being sort of a
limited group of people. I see it as sort of a starved
larger group of people that have many radio stations
that they can listen to now, but they are really not
understanding. I think you would at least need one.
Personally, I think there should be 10 or 11 of these
radio stations, but one is a good start.
7476 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Okay.
Well, thank you very much for your comments and for
your responses to my questions and thank you for being
here.
7477 MS WILLIAMS: Thank you very much.
7478 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms
Williams, for your participation. I hope you had a
good trip over and you will have a good trip back.
7479 MS WILLIAMS: Thank you.
7480 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam secretary,
please.
7481 MS POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chair.
7482 The next intervention will be
presented by the Dutch-Canadian Association Ottawa.
INTERVENTION
7483 MR. HANKES-DRIELSMA: Good afternoon,
ladies and gentlemen.
7484 My name is Maarten -- I don't know
whether to say it in the Dutch way -- Hankes-Drielsma.
I can't actually pronounce it the way it's supposed to
be pronounced. My Dutch has deteriorated, I'm afraid.
I speak on behalf of the Dutch-Canadian Association of
Ottawa Valley/Outaouais, but I hasten to add that Dutch
Canadians are sort of like economists and
meteorologists: if you have of them in the room, you
have five different positions on just about any issue
you might choose. I am president of the Dutch-Canadian
Association of Ottawa and our association has taken an
interest in your proceedings, and specifically has come
here to make representations, as you are aware, having
looked at the Infinity application, in support of that
application, and I would like to address that.
7485 Basically, we are a small, relatively
unique community. I don't know whether you noticed,
but in the media recently it was noted in the national
press, as a result of a study, that Dutch Canadians are
the happiest immigrant group in Canada, which, of
course, generated a lot of tongue-in-cheek comments
about Heineken beer and legalized marijuana, and that
kind of stuff. But in actual fact, it serves to
highlight a point that our community is somewhat
unique.
7486 The Netherlands, as I said in my
paper, is the tiny overachiever of the Netherlands and
the Netherlands tends to spin off overachieving
immigrants to wherever it is that people go. People
bring with them lots of language skills, very strong
academic and professional vocational qualifications,
and they generally excel wherever they go.
7487 And the other interesting thing about
Dutch Canadians is that we are assimilators. As I
said, I can't really pronounce my name. I can't roll
the "R" as much as it really ought to be rolled. I
apologize for that.
7488 But there's another side to that, and
there is a limit to how assimilated to how we want to
be and how assimilated we really ought to be. And the
fact that my organization exists at all is in fact an
expression of the fact that Dutch Canadians do want to
maintain contact with their roots in a way that they
really can't now. And a part of that is purely
selfish. They are people who grew up with certain
kinds of music, certain kinds of -- the love of
language and the love of one's mother's-tongue is not
something that needs to be explained to you. And as
Dutch Canadians, we are. I see that very strongly in
the membership of the organization, the DCA, the
Dutch-Canadian Association.
7489 So when we looked as an organization,
at Infinity's application, of course, the mere fact
that this would give people access to their culture, in
a way that doesn't exist now, that was an important
feature, but since that time I would like to highlight
another point, and I think that our community is not as
big a player in the local scene as it could be, if it
had a radio station such as Infinity.
7490 I gave you the example there of the
Friendship Windmill which most of you are probably
aware of. The Friendship Windmill -- the story of the
Friendship Windmill is a story of a small ethnic
community struggling without any institutions to
support it to do something, to give something to the
community at large, and to date this is a project that
is still struggling, still looking for its feet.
7491 The reason why it hasn't found its
feet is that there was no way to build a strong
consensus that our entire community, small as it is --
it's 8,000 to 10,000 people -- there has been no way
for our community to carry on the discussion and build
the consensus that a project of this magnitude would
need in order to come to fruition.
7492 So quite apart from the fact that
members of the Dutch-Canadian community are here asking
you to give them, for their own use, a radio station
that will speak to them in their own language, the
Dutch-Canadian community is also saying to you, "We can
do more for the community at large if we have the means
to function as a community". We have looked at the
Infinity application and are here to tell you that in
our view this is a radio station that would enhance our
ability to not just live our lives, but give back to
this community.
7493 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I will
try.
7494 Thank you for your presentation.
I see from your written intervention as well that you
have some doubts as to whether the two hours of
programming could be commercially funded, but have some
assurances from Infinity.
7495 MR. HANKES-DRIELSMA: That was one of
the issues that came out in the meeting where we were
addressed by Infinity people. Those were concerns that
were expressed and that I, as President, had to write
into our submission to you because they were expressed.
7496 I think this is an area in which our
members had, by definition, no experience. People had
no way of imagining how something like this could be
funded. When one thinks about it a little bit, and you
think of major Dutch corporations such as ING Bank and
Heineken beer, people who are the major players on the
world economic stage, you start approaching some of
those, and one can imagine that, in fact, it could pay
for itself. But yes, it is true that some of our
members did express those concerns.
7497 THE CHAIRPERSON: As you know, radio
stations rely a lot on local advertising as opposed to
large corporation advertising. What would you see in
Ottawa as the source of local advertising, or the Dutch
programming?
7498 MR. HANKES-DRIELSMA: Well, there is
a relatively small set of sort of pre-well known
economic companies that are logical, people who are
merchandising directly to the Dutch-Canadian community
and there is a relatively small number of those, but
I don't see that most of that funding would, in fact,
come from -- I think the demographics of our community
are such that a lot of companies that have no
connection to Holland whatsoever are nevertheless
interested in our demographics.
7499 I mean, we are a relatively well to
do segment of the community. We spend a certain number
of dollars and our listeners have to spend those
dollars somewhere. I don't see where we have to go to
the Dutch grocery store necessarily to find the funding
for our program. But I must say that I have no direct
experience in this, but certainly it would have to come
from companies that are interested in the demographics
of the community and that seems to me to be a viable
prospect.
7500 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of course, Ottawa
has some very special links to the Netherlands.
7501 MR. HANKES-DRIELSMA: Very much so.
7502 THE CHAIRPERSON: Isn't Ottawa twined
with The Hague, for example?
7503 MR. HANKES-DRIELSMA: It is indeed.
It is indeed and just yesterday --
7504 THE CHAIRPERSON: For various sports
and activities.
7505 MR. HANKES-DRIELSMA: Yes.
7506 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.
7507 MR. HANKES-DRIELSMA: Well, just
yesterday somebody from the Dutch community was
suggesting to me -- Holland is a country that excels
beyond its size in many areas, soccer happens to be one
of them -- wouldn't it be great if for next year's
Tulip Festival we could bring the Dutch soccer,
national soccer team, to play a benefit game against
the Canadian team? This is the kind of initiative that
you can make that kind of thing happen if you had a
means of harnessing the support that is out there.
7508 THE CHAIRPERSON: You better start
practising, sir.
--- Laughter / Rires
7509 THE CHAIRPERSON: But some minor
league soccer teams come and play here from Holland.
7510 MR. HANKES-DRIESLMA: Do they?
7511 THE CHAIRPERSON: From The Hague,
yes. I know a young Maarten someone -- I forget his
second name -- swept a young Canadian woman I knew who
played soccer and she ended up living in The Hague. So
obviously there are exchanges.
7512 It's nice to see you, and we thank
you for your presentation.
7513 MR. HANKES-DRIESLMA: Thank you.
7514 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Madame la Secrétaire,
s'il vous plaît.
7515 MS POIRIER: The next intervention
will be presented by Hana Nader-Merhi.
INTERVENTION
7516 MS NADER-MERHI: Good afternoon,
Madam Chair and Commissioners.
7517 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.
7518 MS NADER-MERHI: First of all, I must
apologize for my voice. Unfortunately it's not at full
blast today.
7519 My name is Hana Nader-Merhi and I am
pleased to be representing the Lebanese-Islamic
Community Association of Ottawa, Canada.
7520 The Association is supporting the
Infinity Broadcasting application for 89.9 FM because
in our view its proposal of an inclusive approach to
serving 19 ethnocultural communities in 20 different
languages will best serve the interests of ethnic
Canadians living within the Ottawa/Hull region.
7521 The proposed station, in our view,
will provide a much needed multicultural, multilingual
radio programming service in the Ottawa/Hull area since
no ethnic radio station currently exists. This absence
of a full service multicultural station within the
Nation's Capital, a capital that is host to one of the
largest and most culturally diverse population in
Canada, is simply no longer tolerable in our
submission.
7522 In my oral presentation today I would
emphasize two of the many important aspects of the
Infinity application and what it means to the
Ottawa/Hull region.
7523 One, is that it's important for the
Lebanese community, and secondly, it's relevance to the
remaining cultural communities and to the broader
Ottawa/Hull community.
7524 First, the Arabic-speaking
communities collectively represent one of the largest,
if not the largest, language groups within the
Ottawa/Hull region. The Lebanese community is the
single largest component within the overall
Arabic-speaking community. Although our community is
large, and in many respects self-sufficient, like other
cultural communities, we have no radio voice within the
region that specifically targets and serves the
cultural, linguistic and commercial needs of the
language groups other than English and French.
7525 From the Lebanese community's
perspective, in a highly diverse multicultural society
like Canada's, it is very important to be able to
listen to a radio program, gain information, and be
entertained in one's own heritage language.
7526 Currently, the provincial school
boards accommodate such retention of heritage language
through the International Languages Program. My
husband and I are both very involved in those programs
as we run an Arabic-language school with the Ottawa
French-Language School Board now. So this application
interested us very much in that respect.
7527 For first generation
Lebanese-Canadians, I would submit that it provides a
sense of comfort and well-being to be exposed and
reminded of things familiar from within one's own
heritage.
7528 To the second and third generation
Lebanese-Canadians it is no less important, in our
view, that they have the opportunity to be exposed to
their cultural roots and the heritage language of their
forefathers. It is through such access that young
Lebanese-Canadians will achieve a greater sense of
their own identities.
7529 As members of the Ottawa/Hull
Lebanese community, we look forward to fully
participating in the creation and production of local
programming that will be relevant to, and receptive of,
the entire Lebanese Arabic speaking population.
7530 I think it is fair to say that the
licensing of an ethnic radio station will result in the
station fulfilling many roles beyond meeting specific
programming needs of each of the 19 targeted
communities.
7531 By its very nature as a multilingual,
multicultural station, Infinity, if licensed, will
provide essential important opportunity for
cross-cultural activities, understanding and awareness
among all 19 ethnic communities within the region.
7532 As the various communities extend
their programming efforts to their own constituents
language groups, other communities will be exposed and
attracted and informed of each other which is really
the theory behind the International Languages Program
as well.
7533 Further in this respect, we are
excited by the potential of Infinity's proposed world
music programming to provide a further bridge to
cross-cultural understanding and communication among
all communities.
7534 Music through its universal ability
to cross all cultural boundaries, in our view, provides
a common ground for music lovers to share their
interest in and appreciation for world-class artists
and the music they perform. And when I say "music", I
am not talking about just mainstream, all kinds of
music from classical, spiritual, rock, the music that
will attract and is of interest to the various
community groups, ethnocultural community groups.
7535 Madam Chair and Commissioners,
another critical role that will fall to the first full-
service ethnic radio station will be to heighten public
awareness of Ottawa/Hull's rich cultural diversity and
the role and contribution that each multicultural
community has played in the history and development of
the National Capital Region and to Canada's fourth
largest population centre in one of the greatest urban
environments in the world.
7536 As a case in point, Ottawa/Hull has a
vibrant business community, and may I add Lebanese
business community as well, whose membership has played
an integral role in changing the face of Ottawa/Hull
from both the retail and professional and real estate
developmental perspectives, among many other
considerations.
7537 I myself was born and raised in
Ottawa and have seen this change over time personally.
We are proud of our business community's
accomplishments and the social, cultural and economic
benefits they have produced for the Ottawa/Hull
region's population as a whole.
7538 In closing, I would again express our
organization's support for Infinity's application. It
is the right proposal by the right ownership groups in
fulfilling the glaring multicultural service's void
within Ottawa/Hull's rapidly growing multicultural
population.
7539 The time is now for Infinity and its
visible minority ownership group which, we would
underline, includes local Ottawa/Hull investor
participation and strong local Ottawa/Hull
representation on the station's own Board of Directors.
7540 We urge the Commission to licence
Infinity Broadcasting for the good of Ottawa/Hull's
multicultural population and ethnic broadcasting.
7541 Thank you very much.
7542 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Ms Nader-Merhi.
7543 Commissioner Cardozo, please.
7544 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks, Madam
Chair, and thank you, Ms Nader-Merhi, for your
presentation.
7545 A couple of questions I wanted to get
your sense on. One is a little more about the Lebanese
community in this area. Is it fair to say the larger
part of adults would be immigrants and the younger
people, children, would tend to be born in Canada?
7546 MS NADER-MERHI: Maybe about --
I don't want to age myself, but about 20 years ago that
would have been fair to say, but now that young
population has grown into adults themselves, and
I would say it's probably a split. I am no expert, but
I would say it's evenly split.
7547 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. So what
degree of language retention is there among the ones
who were born here?
7548 MS NADER-MERHI: As I mentioned to
you before, the International Languages Program is a
very important program that promotes heritage languages
of all sorts and, for example, the Arabic speaking
population are encouraged and -- how can I put it --
have been very pleased to enrol their students on a
Saturday program and on a full-time summer program for
about two months because that helps the retention, to
some extent, but that is education, that's formal
education, that's classroom setting. That's not
entertainment and the sort of information and learning
and education, of course, that would be -- how can I
say that -- that is easier for the younger generation
sets to absorb because some of the young people,
although they are proud of their language, may not like
sitting in a classroom all day.
7549 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes.
7550 MS NADER-MERHI: And so in our view,
the opportunity to hear it on a radio program is
essential and much more valuable.
7551 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But I am
thinking about the young people who don't go to
language school. Is there enough Arabic spoken in
their milieu at home, and so forth, for them to have
enough to be conversant or be able to understand Arabic
so that they will be interested in it in radio
programming? Is there enough comprehension among the
younger Canadian-born population?
7552 MS NADER-MERHI: I understand, but I
think -- and you may be right, there may be some cases
where that is not the case, where English has
overwhelmed the language in the home, but I would think
that this radio station would help mitigate against
those adverse effects, exactly those adverse effects,
yes.
7553 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The second
question is with regards to businesses. You mentioned
there is a fair size business community of Lebanese
origin in Ottawa, and one can think of the Assalys and
one can think of the corner grocer. There is really a
wide range of people.
7554 Is that a large enough community to
support about ten hours of programming, two hours every
day in this schedule they provided you with a fairly
nice slot in the evening? Do you sense that there is a
lot of advertisers there that will fund the ten hours
plus be able to fund enough advertising that other
smaller groups who may not have that kind of
entrepreneurship would also benefit.
7555 MS NADER-MERHI: I would say
definitely. I mean, the Lebanese immigrants and
Lebanese Canadian-born citizens here are very -- they
have an lot of initiative in that sense, in terms of
establishing businesses and becoming educated. And,
yes, I think that there is more than enough
business-sponsored funding that would assist in this
radio station.
7556 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. And
excuse my ignorance on the matter of language, but to
what extent would the same language be -- would you
call it just Arabic, or would people from different
countries, different Arab countries, speak the same
dialect, for example? I mean, will the programming be
accessible to people of origins in all the Arab
countries?
7557 MS NADER-MERHI: There are many, many
countries and local community groups that speak the one
Arabic dialect. There are other Arabic dialects.
There are some variances, but they are not that
significant. And there is what is commonly known as
the classical Arabic, which we would hope to promote,
that is understood by all.
7558 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. I mean,
I can think of people in this region who are from
perhaps Syria, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain --
7559 MS NADER-MERHI: Iraq.
7560 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: -- places like
that, Iran --
7561 MS NADER-MERHI: Yes. Well,
Iranians, they know some Arabic, but they know more
Persian. But Iraqis, Somalis, Somalis from Egypt, from
Morocco, they have pretty well the same Arabic, basic
Arabic dialect.
7562 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Algeria?
7563 MS NADER-MERHI: Algeria, yes, yes.
7564 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So they would
all be able to understand the same --
7565 MS NADER-MERHI: In my opinion, yes.
7566 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: -- classical
Arabic?
7567 MS NADER-MERHI: Yes.
7568 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Thanks
very much.
7569 MS NADER-MERHI: You are welcome.
7570 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms
Nader-Merhi, for sharing with us. And I hope you bad
throat improves.
7571 MS NADER-MERHI: Thank you very much.
7572 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam la
sécretaire, s'il vous plaît.
7573 MS POIRIER: I would now invite the
Federation of Ottawa Chinese Organizations, Mr. Albert
Tang.
INTERVENTION
7574 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon,
Mr. Tang.
7575 MR. DAI: Good afternoon.
7576 I'm sorry, a little bit changed the
name, I already explained to the lady. I will talk
later. Madam Chair --
7577 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Tang.
7578 MS POIRIER: No, he's Mr. George Dai,
replacing Mr. Tang.
7579 MR. DAI: Yes, I already say that.
7580 MS POIRIER: Thank you.
7581 MR. DAI: It's okay. Thank you very
much.
7582 Madam Chair and Commissioners, good
afternoon.
7583 My name is George Dai. I'm here on
behalf of Albert Tang, president of the Federation of
Ottawa Chinese Organizations. I'm also president of
SinoCa Hi-Tech Exchange Association, also known as SHE
Association.
7584 The Federation of Ottawa Chinese
Organizations would like to intervene in support of
Infinity Broadcasting. If Infinity is approved, it
will be the first time that a full-time ethnic radio
station will be heard in Ottawa. The well over 30,000
people of Chinese origin and a total of over 400,000
from all ethnic origins living in Ottawa-Hull will then
have something that all other Canadian cities have, a
dedicated ethnic radio station.
7585 The Chinese community also has the
largest ethnic business sector in Ottawa and Hull, the
National Capital Region. A substantial amount of
advertising revenue remains untapped within the Chinese
business community. The Chinese business sector is one
of the most competitive among Ottawa-Hull's ethnic
communities.
7586 As for myself, I am quite a new
immigrant to Canada. Even when I was in China, I
selected the Ottawa/Hull region, specially Kanata, to
settle my family, because it's the capital of a
multi-cultural country and it's the technical capital
of the north, called the Silicon Valley North. After
1995, the number of new immigrants to Ottawa/Hull from
China has grown to be number one. About 1,000 new
immigrants enters the Ottawa hi-tech sector from China
every year. They brought with them their good
educational background, experience and working skills
to the new country and contribute to the government and
hi-tech sectors.
7587 We established the SHE Association
for the new immigrants to help each other. In the past
one-and-a-half years, we have attracted more than 700
members who have at least a Bachelor's degree. Most of
us can speak English fairly well and we are trying our
best to be involved in the mainstream society. But on
the other hand, we feel it is very important for us to
keep in touch with our native tongues, traditions and
cultures. As one would expect, we are very eager to
hear the sounds of our native tongue and music in
Ottawa/Hull's airwaves. That is what gives us our
identity and makes us stronger citizens.
7588 Our firm support of Infinity
Broadcasting is based on the inclusive nature of its
proposals, as described in the application. Infinity
has also consulted with the Federation as to the needs
of the Chinese community and the way in which it can be
best fulfilled. The Federation has agreed to fully
participate in any advisory capacity to create a
Chinese program that will truly reflect the local
Chinese community. Mrs. Renu Ray, vice-president of
Infinity Broadcasting, made an impressive presentation
at the Federation's annual dinner last month, which was
attended by MPs, MPPs, the Ottawa Mayor and
councillors. We understand a total of about 200
letters from the Chinese community were sent to the
CRTC in support of Infinity Broadcasting.
7589 The Federation of Ottawa Chinese
Community Organizations would like to stress on the
need for an ethnic radio station that is locally run
and managed. We cannot afford the risk of losing the
local character of the radio station. Infinity's
blueprint for the radio programs is full of local
flavour. Infinity's commitments to us are further
confirmed by the fact that Infinity has two Ottawa
owners and three Ottawa members on its board of
directors, including the board chairperson.
7590 Although there is some limited
Chinese programming on the campus station, about an
hour a week, for real intent and purposes the vast
Chinese community remains unserved in the NCR.
Infinity Broadcasting has provided three hours of
morning prime time of Chinese programs. This would
allow the Chinese community the privilege that our
sister communities in all other cities of Canada enjoy.
7591 Chinese people are spread all over
the Greater Ottawa region and Hull and areas outside
the Ottawa/Hull area. It is therefore important for us
to have a station on a powerful frequency.
7592 Madam Chair and Commissioners, on
behalf of the Federation of Ottawa Chinese Community
Organizations and SHE Association, I would like to
request the Commission grant Infinity the licence of
89.9 FM. Good luck, Infinity Broadcasting. Good luck,
Canadian multiculturalism. Thank you very much
7593 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
7594 Commissioner Pennefather.
7595 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you,
Madam Chair.
7596 And thank you, Mr. Dai.
7597 MR. DAI: Thank you very much. You
remembered my name.
7598 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Well, my
colleague also pointed out to me that you also sent a
letter yourself, which describes the SHE organization,
and you have also spoken to us on behalf of Mr. Tang.
7599 Just one question, and you touched on
it, though, the Chinese business community, the way you
see the Infinity proposal for the Chinese community.
Why do you see the Chinese business community
supporting this proposal? And I would also like your
comment on what kind of programming you think will
serve the Chinese community, which would also interest
the business community.
7600 MR. DAI: Thank you for your
question.
7601 From my understanding, I think all
the things were based on one principle: the Infinity
Broadcasting would use a program joint with the Chinese
community together. I mean, we will provide to the
information what is really needed for the Chinese
people, doesn't matter younger or older, doesn't matter
is Mandarin or Cantonese or some other local languages,
it doesn't matter he or she is a student, is a hi-tech
workers or just at home, is a homekeeper. So in this
way we can provide what they need. We can try to make
the program together. Of course, including to attract
the business advertising and such things.
7602 Now, in the Ottawa area Chinese
community there is some media in Chinese native
language. For example, there are four newspaper is
free delivered. Sorry my English is -- I just come
here a little more than two years, sorry. Four Chinese
local newspapers is free to deliver, but how they can
survive the only thing is to get this advertisement.
And on the other hand, there is some radio.
Fortunately today, not to Saturday, I think, or two
weeks ago, I cannot remember exactly, I heard once
about the local Chinese radio. To tell you the truth,
my feeling is that it's really, really bad. During
about a one-hour programming almost all the things are
music. They say to introduce the jazz -- is it called
jazz or something? -- maybe the jazz music in China,
not here. So they introduce some culture in China now,
but during the one hour programming they are talking --
I mean, the host is speaking no more than 10 minutes.
I was so sad. I mean, the information here is so
limited. Of course, this here, the hearing, is no
satisfied. And in this way we can find actually there
are no much advertisement, but if the program, the
contents, is really good, can attract the designers, of
course the business, or might promoted through the
radio station.
7603 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you,
that answers my question very well. Thank you for
coming --
7604 MR. DAI: Thank you very much.
7605 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: -- on
behalf of yourself and Mr. Tang.
7606 MR. DAI: Thank you.
7607 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Dai.
7608 MR. DAI: Thank you.
7609 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam la
secrétaire.
7610 MS POIRIER: I will now invite Mrs.
Margret Kopala.
INTERVENTION
7611 MS KOPALA: Good afternoon.
7612 Madam Chair, other commissioners, I'm
Margret Kopala. I am a third generation Canadian of
Ukrainian and Polish heritage. My Ukrainian
grandparents arrived as children in western Canada just
as Alberta was becoming a province in 1905. My Polish
grandparents arrived in 1928. I speak one of Canada's
official languages extremely well, I have smatterings
of the other and I don't speak either Polish or
Ukrainian.
7613 It was only when I and my husband
arrived here in Ottawa in 1986, with our two-year-old
son, miles away from my Edmonton home and family, that
I made a concerted effort to involve myself in my
mother's Ukrainian culture. Women, somehow or other,
seem to be the keepers of the culture. That seems to
be our particular role, amongst other things. I did so
partly to offset the homesickness that I felt for my
Ukrainian family -- Ukrainian Canadian family that I
had left back on Alberta. Partly, also, I wanted to
ensure that my son would have some exposure to his
various cultural roots.
7614 Since then, I have been active in the
Ottawa area Ukrainian Community as president of the
Ukrainian Canadian Professional & Business
Associations, Ottawa Branch, and as president of the
Parish Council of the Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral.
Currently, I am the volunteer producer of the Cable
Community Television Show, Ukrainian Profile.
7615 These activities in the Ukrainian
Community have brought me into extensive contact with
other ethnic groups, first as representative on the
National Council of Ethnic Canadian Business &
Professional Associations, Ottawa Branch, and now as a
member of the Board of Directors of the Pearson Shoyama
Institute.
7616 Through these contacts, I have come
to appreciate how new immigrant groups are experiencing
many of the same pressures and challenges that my
immigrant grand-parents did almost a hundred years ago.
Circumstances today are vastly different, of course,
but many of the issues remain the same.
7617 Concerns on both sides of the
immigrant divide about language, about fitting in
because of different customs, religious rights,
political persuasions, clothing and dietary habits and
plain old home sickness, plague sensitive new immigrant
and his national host.
7618 Of course, today's new arrival does
not have access -- has access to government programs
and technology that my grand-parents who picked rocks
and cleared bush in order to create their new Canadian
homes did not have. But with the rocks and with the
bush came time, time to adapt, to learn, so that in
two, perhaps even three generations, full integration
might take place.
7619 Today's immigrants, on the other
hand, are bombarded. They are bombarded with
television movies, all kinds of other technological
advances, they are whistled through our medical and our
school systems, they have to get the job, they have to
learn the language, often they have families back in
other countries, in their home countries, to worry
about. Indeed, for those from Third World countries, I
think the experience must be utterly overwhelming.
7620 Often, I pass a certain house on my
way to the Queensway. If it is early in the morning,
invariably there will be an elderly East Indian
gentleman sitting in front, doing nothing in
particular, seemingly soaking up the sun. Sometimes he
is smoking and I wonder if he has been turfed out of
the house to smoke as my grand-mother would have turfed
the men in her house out if they wanted to smoke.
7621 But the other day, when I saw him, I
thought to myself, I'll bet he speaks one of India's 24
regional languages, and if Infinity Broadcasting had
its licence, Neeti Ray with his command of these
languages would have a song or a story or a news item
that would connect and resonate with this gentleman and
maybe he would feel a little less lonely sitting there
in the sunshine.
7622 Through these hearings, you are no
doubt being indebted with facts, statistics and
credentials about the various applicants. So, my
presentation has instead focused on the human dimension
because I think culture finally is about the human
dimension, those shared experiences that connect us in
structured and unstructured ways.
7623 I think in our increasingly pluralist
societies, the challenge is to find those shared
experiences across ethnic device and here in Canada,
for reasons not entirely clear to many of us, we seem
to be succeeding and there are some of us who are
re-evaluating our multicultural policies and whether
they are deterrent to the kind of social cohesion that
creates a strong and viable nation state one thing does
appear to be certain. That social cohesion is, in
fact, promoted in that people who gain more freedom,
more closely identify with the society that allows it.
7624 I am very proud then, as a fully
integrated third generation Canadian of Ukrainian
Heritage, to support new immigrants as they embark on
their adventure to become integrated Canadians of other
heritages and who in so doing, will help others achieve
this as well.
7625 I close now by urging you, please, to
give Infinity Broadcasting every consideration to
become the National Capital Region's first ethnic radio
licensee.
7626 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
much, Ms Kopala, for sharing with us what you perceive
to be the needs for new immigrants. Is your son still
living in Ottawa?
7627 MS KOPALA: Yes, absolutely.
7628 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, that would be a
meaningful addition to his life.
7629 MS KOPALA: Perhaps it could be. I
think the major benefit a broadcasting facility of this
sort has is to new immigrants. It is going to be those
who still speak the language who are obviously going to
get the most out of it and the second group that will
get the most out of it are people like me who want to
be reconnected to their roots. But, per se, I see the
immigrant who is being the primary beneficiary of this
service.
7630 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms
Kopala, for your presentation. We will take a ten
minute break and then come back and complete the
remaining interveners for the afternoon. Would you
tell us, madam Poirier, who those are?
7631 MS POIRIER: There is Mr. Herb
Kreling; Somali Center for Youth; Gary Wiseman and
Barbara Wozniak and there was one from this morning,
the Council for the Arts in Ottawa that came in and
would like to be -- that would like to present their
intervention.
7632 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. So, we
will take a ten minute break and then complete with
those five, I understand, interveners and then proceed
with the remaining interveners tomorrow morning.
Alors, nous reviendrons dans dix minutes.
--- Upon recessing at 1503 / Suspension à 1503
--- Upon resuming at 1512 / Reprise à 1512
7633 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Madame la Secrétaire.
7634 MS POIRIER: Merci, Madame la
Présidente. Sur la liste, on a monsieur Gary Wiseman
qui ne pourra pas être présent et est représenté par
monsieur Raymond Grant. Excuse me; I should have said
that in English.
7635 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon,
Mr. Grant.
INTERVENTION
7636 MR. GRANT: Good afternoon, madam
Chair and Commissioners. I am Raymond Grant, I am
Pastor of Bibleway Ministries and president of Banner
Productions. I am Jamaican born, but I do not
represent Jamaican Ottawa Community Association, but I
am speaking inadvertently for them and for myself.
7637 Twenty-six years ago, I came to
Canada with my father, my mother, and my two sisters
and it was a political and business decision my father
made, and either the fact that the then Prime Minister
Michael Manley was becoming quite comfortable with our
neighbour to the north Fidel Castro.
7638 My father came from a family of 12
boys and one girl and had built a large and sizeable
business and we lived in a very affluent community. We
shared residential space with former Prime Minister
Ushira. My father, fearing that all that he had worked
to build would soon taken over by a predominantly
socialist regime, fled the country and came here to
Canada.
7639 I was just turning 12 at the time and
since coming here I have made this country my home. It
is not my homeland, but it is my home and I have had
the privilege of marrying one of your beautiful girls
and I have three children.
7640 The year that I got married marked 14
years since I left Jamaica and it was also the year I
returned and in returning I never realized how
disconnected I had become and I would like to touch a
little bit about on on a few points with regards to my
experience as a young boy coming here, still very much
in touch with my home country to which my parents have
gone back to live and I would like to talk to you today
about the necessity of having a community radio station
or an ethnic radio station rather that keeps people in
touch with their homeland.
7641 I think it is important that in light
of the fact that Canada has embarked upon in
multicultural policy in terms of the social engineering
of the country that those who are natives to the
country understand the importance of people still being
connected to their homelands.
7642 Now, when I went back, I was amazed
at the poverty that my nation had somehow fallen into.
When I left Jamaica at the age of 12 in 1975, we were
rising star of the Caribbean. There was an entrenched
middle class which we were a part of, part of an upper
middle class community.
7643 When I went back that demographic was
almost entirely gone and many communities had house in
a fine neighbourhoods and homes and families had now
been run down and had been taken over by all kinds of
squatters in various kinds of other types.
7644 Now being in touch with my homeland
during those years created a sense of not belonging any
more upon my first trip back. I must say I have gone
back every year since and that is now eroded, but at a
thousand dollars a trip, that is an expensive way to
try and stay connected.
7645 I think that with an ethnic community
station here in this city, that has a high ethnic
population, the aspect of connectivity to our people in
our homelands, to which many of us will never return to
live, will be afforded. I think it is important that
we also have a voice in the communities where we reside
currently.
7646 This is my adopted community and I
think that an ethnic station would give us an
opportunity to have a voice, and I am going to say this
kindly, among strangers and many of these strangers
have now become our friends. In some cases they have
become our families.
7647 But it still gives us a voice
politically, it gives us a voice I think municipally
and allows us to share our concerns within the Canadian
Mosaic.
7648 Thirdly, it gives us three
dimensional perspectives. It allows us to stay in
touch with where we come from. It allows us also to
more readily identify with where we came to and then it
allows us especially new immigrants to have a better
sense of who we are in the new world we are in and many
times, what multiculturalism does, is it ghettoises
people and I do not like the ghetto. I prefer the fact
that I am a Canadian. I never trump at the fact that I
am a Jamaican Canadian. I am a Canadian. This is my
home.
7649 And I think what it has done for me
in terms of just my life experience, the fact that I am
in the people business as a Minister, that I worked
with Immigration Canada for several years, for seven
years, in fact, and that much of my job, my labour
revolved around people. It allowed me to have a sense
of who I was, where I was, but it still did not take
from me my origin.
7650 And lastly, I think it allows
Canadians to understand the people who live among them
and who have now chosen Canada to be their home. As a
Immigration employee, we serviced many, many refugees
and my division was Medical Services Division, our job
was to ensure that those coming in to Canada did not
carry communicable diseases or diseases that would
pause a burden or a threat to our health care system.
7651 But I think it is really important
that Canadians understand who we are, that we are not
ethnics; we are people. And in a much broader sense we
are your brothers who finally get a chance to meet us,
finally getting a chance to know us.
7652 In essence then, Infinity's
application for licence by the CRTC is really a licence
in request that you allow them to provide the rest of
the country access to various people from various
quarters of the world and allows us an opportunity to
share with you not just on Canada Day, when we do a
little dance on the stage, we sing a little song in a
mike, but allows on a day by day basis to keep in touch
with where we are at, so you understand the ply of the
Sudanese and you understand the concerns of the Somali
and you understand as well that Jamaica has a whole lot
more to offer than reggae.
7653 We want that opportunity to share
with you who we are, not a political position, but we
as a people, two people that have welcomed us across
their borders and in their airports and allow us and
give us an opportunity to not just be a culture within
a culture, but to become a part of your lives
intricately. We want to be Canadians and we cherish
and rouse the fact that we have been given that
opportunity, despite a lot of hardships in many cases.
7654 My dad left everything he had. He
had a profitable business, he sold everything, log
stock and we came here. We learned how to be poor when
we came to Canada. Mind you, the tables have turned.
We learned how to work hard and to do well as
Canadians.
7655 Give us an opportunity through
Infinity Broadcasting to share with this particular
community in Ottawa who we are as a people. We don't
want to be different from you, but we want to share
with you what makes us unique and I think this
particular license allows us not to simply share canned
radio with you, also work at CHOR or 99.1-FM and
understand the power of the media.
7656 And I really believe that Infinity's
licence allows the community to project itself rather
than to be given canned programming that reflects
really a different agenda. Thank you.
7657 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Grant, and I hope you give our best wishes to
Mr. Wiseman. Thank you for coming to share with us.
Madam Poirier.
7658 MS POIRIER: Thank you, madam Chair.
The next intervention is presented by Herb Kreling.
7659 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon,
Mr. Kreling.
7660 MR. KRELING: Good afternoon, Madam
Chair and Commissioners.
7661 It's with pleasure that I am here
before you today to speak in support of the Infinity
application and certainly I wish you all well in your
deliberations as you go through the hearing processes.
7662 Madam Chair, my name is Herb Kreling.
I am a City Councillor in the City of Ottawa. I
represent the Orléans community. Prior to that I spent
two terms as a Regional Councillor for the Regional
Municipality of Ottawa-Carleton.
7663 During this time, I have had the
pleasure of representing at this point approximately
46,000 to 48,000 residents and fully, Madam Chair, I
would suggest to you that based on some of the most
recent data that we have from Statistics Canada that in
my community alone approximately 10 per cent, or
perhaps 12 per cent of that population is from ethnic
origins other than French or English.
7664 Ottawa/Hull as a region represents
today the fourth largest population centre in Canada
and it has a large and ever-expanding multicultural
population.
7665 Despite our multicultural nature,
Ottawa/Hull is one of the few remaining urban centres,
major urban centres, in Canada that does not have at
least one dedicated full-service ethnic radio station.
The addition of a full-service ethnic radio station
would greatly benefit the municipal level of government
in our region in communicating with ethnic Canadians
across the various cultural communities in their own
heritage language.
7666 By example, Madam Chair, I know that
colleagues of mine on City Council from time to time
translate -- I should say it's obviously more popular
for us to be translating into English and French, but I
know that colleagues at my Council table also translate
into other languages in order to communicate certain
issues to their respective wards so that it is more
readily understood by the communities that they
represent.
7667 It is vitally important to cultural
communities from many perspectives, not the least of
which is the ability to communicate directly with all
communities in times of emergencies. A dedicated
full-service ethnic station will fully reflect the rich
cultural diversity of Ottawa/Hull through its regular
program schedule throughout the week and on weekends.
7668 Infinity's proposed radio station in
serving 19 cultural groups and 20 different languages
will provide Ottawa/Hull's vibrant ethnic business
communities, a high cost-effective advertising vehicle
to target and serve multicultural communities they
specifically want to reach, and over the past six and a
half years, Madam Chair, in my capacity, representing
my community, I have had the opportunity to work with
representatives of a host of ethnic backgrounds,
professionals, business people from the engineering
profession, from the teaching profession, small
business owners to people who have interests in large
companies in our community. And these representatives
of these companies involved with our Chambers of
Commerce, involved with our economic development
partners in Ottawa/Hull come from, and are very much
representative, of the type of community that we have
in our region, a multicultural community.
7669 Ottawa/Hull's first full-service
ethnic radio station will foster greater awareness and
understanding by the general public of the magnitude of
multiculturalism within the region's overall population
and the role and contribution that the various cultural
communities have made to our community.
7670 Infinity's establishment of the
region's first dedicated full-service radio station
will add significant program diversity and listener
choice to Ottawa/Hull's radio market.
7671 The addition of Infinity's ethnic
station to the Ottawa/Hull radio spectrum will create a
more positive image for Ottawa/Hull from the
international business community who will see it as an
attractive area with a comprehensive offering of vital
services and hence a good place to invest in.
7672 With respect to Infinity Broadcasting
specifically, I know that Infinity is a highly
professional broadcast organization and it has over 20
years of ethnic broadcasting experience in major
Canadian markets. They are major shareholders of
visible minority South Asians. As such, if licensed,
they would bring fresh ideas, new energies, different
approaches, and more importantly a new diversity to
Ottawa/Hull.
7673 Infinity has sought local Ottawa/Hull
ownership participants and has appointed a strong
representation of Ottawa/Hull community and business
leaders to their Board of Directors.
7674 Madam Chair, in our community it is
important, in the type of work that I do as a City
Councillor, that we reach out to the community and
establish partnerships, and when I saw that Infinity
had reached out to the community to provide for and to
engage the community in partnerships on its Board of
Directors, it is the type of corporate citizen that
will do well within the multicultural mosaic that we
have in our region.
7675 Infinity's owners have spent many
weeks in our community, meeting with dozens of
multicultural communities and groups and organizations
to seek ideas and to garner support for their station's
efforts.
7676 Infinity, if licensed, will be
optimize the use of the 98.9 FM frequency by extending
first-time ethnic program services to the over 400,000
ethnic Canadians within the National Capital Region and
its listener audience.
7677 Madam Chair, I thank you again for
the opportunity to address you on this very important
issue this afternoon and, as I said at the outset, I
wish you and your colleagues every best in your
deliberations.
7678 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Kreling.
7679 MR. Kreling, in Orléans are there, to
your knowledge, chapters of associations of third
language or third culture groups?
7680 MR. KRELING: There are in the
Orléans community. It is not only done by way of the
ethnic or cultural or linguistic backgrounds, but also
through their places of worship, where the people come
together, and it is in those capacities that they
celebrate their individual ethnicities. In it is that
way that they also share between and amongst the
groups, a sharing of the ethnic richness that each of
the culture brings.
7681 Separate from that, separate from
their own work within their own community endeavours
that way, there is a terrific interest by the various
cultural and ethnic groups, citizens, to become
involved with what is going on in their community
through advisory panels, through our Council, through
assistance through the business Chambers of Commerce,
through the schools so that there is an opportunity for
them to contribute to the community in that way as
well.
7682 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you foresee a
lot of change in that as the city amalgamates Orléans
in part, right? Won't you become as well part of the
Greater Ottawa when the transition is over?
7683 MR. KRELING: Well, willingly or not,
we are already a part of the Greater Ottawa. We have
been, I suggest to you, since the origins of Orléans
which was established as a Roman Catholic church. It
was one of the first buildings on St. Joseph Boulevard,
which is the main boulevard in our community.
7684 I think that our challenge as a new
City of Ottawa is to represent all of the residents of
our city, in all of its communities, both
geographically and ethnically. I think an application
such as the one before you will help us to reach out to
those partners in yet another way.
7685 THE CHAIRPERSON: And help the
amalgamation.
7686 MR. KRELING: Yes, and we will need
all the help we can get.
--- Laughter / Rires
7687 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner
Cardozo has a question.
7688 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you,
Madam Chair.
7689 Thank you, Mr. Kreling. It has been
interesting.
7690 I just have one question for you.
One of the things we look at in licensing is the
business case that a station might have, and I am
wondering to what extent the City of Ottawa advertises
on the radio and whether you would see an ethnic radio
where you have programming in a number of different
languages as a vehicle for getting your message out to
the population.
7691 MR. KRELING: I think it is
absolutely an ideal vehicle for us to get our message
out. As I indicated earlier, some of my colleagues are
already undertaking that type of effort on their own
for certain types of information. I guess perhaps one
of the most recent one, and the one that may be the
most easily recognizable to all of us, is during our
election process.
7692 We undertake a great deal of
advertising during an election process for municipal
civic elections, yet we continue to have one of the
lowest voter turnouts by comparison to federal,
provincial and municipal levels. It is just one of
those challenges that we have as a municipality.
7693 In having a radio station that
provides this type of multicultural programming, it
provides us an opportunity to reach out to the
communities, the various multicultural communities, to
indicate to them their rights as residents of our city,
as Canadian citizens of ethnic origins living in our
municipality as to how they can express their
democratic rights.
7694 I myself, in the last municipal
election, undertook with three of the cultures in my
community the translation of certain items so that the
community would be better aware of the election
process. This radio station would provide us certainly
with a very good vehicle to get that message out.
7695 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But do you see
the city being interested in advertising about city
services and the kinds of things that the city does,
not just at election time, but on an ongoing basis?
7696 MR. KRELING: Yes, and I gave you the
election example. Maybe that was a poor example, but
that was the one that quickly came to mind and it was
one that we most easily recognize.
7697 I think that this station would
provide us that opportunity, sir, to get out the
information on various municipal programs. I know that
our Community Services Division, under people services
department, utilizes the services of a multicultural
language translation centre to provide information on
our health and community services program.
7698 I am also Chair of the Police
Services Board for Ottawa. I know that our police
service also utilizes that same multicultural
translation service in order to ensure that we reach
out and communicate effectively with the various ethnic
cultures in our city.
7699 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks very
much.
7700 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Noël.
7701 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Mr. Kreling, I
was under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that the
Orléans area was largely French Canadian. Could you
give me the demographics of that area?
7702 MR. KRELING: Certainly. At this
point, the demographics of the Orléans ward -- now it's
not all of Orléans. All of Orléans is about 80,000 or
90,000 people. My ward is completely within Orléans
and it is nearing a population of 50,000 in my ward.
So my example is going to be based on my ward, which is
pretty reflective of the balance of Orléans too.
English first language in Orléans is about 65 per cent
of the population; French first language in Orléans is
approximately 25 per cent of the population and the
balance is made up of all other ethnic cultures and
linguistic backgrounds.
7703 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you very
much.
7704 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Kreling.
7705 MR. KRELING: Thank you.
7706 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for
coming to share your comments with us.
7707 MR. KRELING: Thank you very much.
7708 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Madame la Secrétaire.
7709 Mme POIRIER: Merci, Madame la
Présidente.
7710 The next intervention is presented by
the Somali Centre for Youth, Women and Community
Development, by Raage Mohamed.
INTERVENTION
7711 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon,
Mr. Mohamed.
7712 MR. MOHAMED: Good afternoon.
7713 Madam Chair and distinguished members
of the panel, I am Raage Mohamed, Program Manager for
Somali Centre for Youth, Women and Community
Development.
7714 I would begin my presentation by
thanking the CRTC for giving us the opportunity to
appear at this hearing and express our thoughts to how
important an ethnic radio station is to our community
and why Infinity Broadcasting should be the ownership
group to be licensed.
7715 There is no doubt in my mind or the
community of 15,000 that we represent, that this
hearing process is of major importance to the Somali
community and will be remembered as such for many years
to come.
7716 They are of major importance because
they represent for the first time the possibility of an
effective communication tool to reach out to all parts
of the Somali community, to educate and to inform and
also to entertain them.
7717 As some of you on the panel may be
aware, the Somali community has grown considerably over
the past few years, but it still remains isolated and
in many ways vulnerable, like other smaller
multicultural communities in the region.
7718 One of the common problems that the
Somali community shares with other cultural groups is a
means of effectively talking to our community.
7719 Based on the experience of the
National Radio in Somalia, the most effective and
reliable mode of Somali culture is an oral
communication, since the script of Somali language was
written first only in 1973.
7720 Here in Ottawa/Hull, the Somali
Centre has continuously struggled to come up with an
effective tool to reach out to the community that we
are trying so hard to serve. We are strongly convinced
that regular Somali language programs on Infinity
Broadcasting would solve our dilemma. Such programs
would assist Somali Canadians both young and older to
retain their cultural and linguistic values, while
learning more about Canada and its ways.
7721 What we are also excited about is the
opportunity for persons within our own community to
effectively participate in deciding what kind of
programming the Somali community wants and needs the
most, and then actually producing that programming for
our own community.
7722 Madam Chairperson, there are many
talented people in the Somali community and its
organizations who have the talent to participate in the
production of programming for our community. With the
support and the guidance of Infinity's experienced
professional broadcasting team, the skill level within
the Somali community, in terms of broadcasting, will
increase even more and ensure that we will provide
quality programs to our people.
7723 It is also both important and
significant that the Somali community will have its own
member on that advisory council that has been
established by Infinity to ensure that the best
interests and fairness for each of the 19 cultural
communities are met and maintained.
7724 The reason, Madam Chairperson, why
it's important that Infinity has provided for each
community to make its own decision on programming and
in being included in the advisory council activities is
that no other outside influence can know the Somali
community's needs and express the Somali culture and
interpret the Somali language as well as Somalis
themselves can.
7725 While it's very important for the
Somali community and its institutions to have the
capacity to inform and educate and communicate among
its own immediate community, we also want to be able to
reflect the Somali community to other multicultural
communities. As part of Ottawa/Hull's multicultural
mosaic, we would like to share with them aspects of our
culture and the contribution it has made, and will
continue to make, to Ottawa/Hul's broader multicultural
society.
7726 By having a Somali voice among the 18
other cultural multilingual voices within Infinity
Broadcasting family, we, as a community, will be able
to participate in, and contribute to, public policy,
discussions within the lcoal, provincial and national
stages.
7727 Finally, because of all of what I
have stated, we are convinced that Infinity
Broadcasting is totally committed to provide a
high-quality, locally produced programming prackage
that will reflect the culture, music, current events
and celebrations and achievements of the Somali
community.
7728 Madam Chairperson and panel members,
we are impressed that the Infinity owners took the
initiative and invested in the time to personally come
and talk to our community, ask about our needs and
invite us to be part of their broadcast family.
Although they are of South Asian origin, Mr. and Mrs.
Ray seemed to understand and appreciate the problems of
the Somali community and the need for us to be
included.
7729 On behalf of the Somali Centre for
Youth, Women and Community Develoment, we would highly
recomend that Infinity be licensed for this
multicultural station for Ottawa/Hull and because we
have trust and confidence in them to make good on their
commitment and to use the station to advance
multiculturalism within the region. Thank you very
much.
7730 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Mohamed, the
Somali community is often -- or the Somali culture is
described is an oral culture, which I think you
confirmed today, and there are 15,000 people of Somali
origin in the Ottawa/Hull area. Can one language reach
all of them?
7731 MR. MOHAMED: Yes. I mean, the
unique aspect of the Somali culture is that there is no
language diversity. I mean, 99 per cent, or maybe 100
per cent, speak the Somali language, whereby all of
them -- or all of the members within the ethnic group
could understand. There may be one small dialect
within that Somali language, which means that although
anybody who speaks in that dialect can understand the
classical Somali, all members -- I could understand,
although I don't belong to that dialect, when they
speak to me.
7732 Also, the Somali language doesn't
represent only those who are originally from the
Somalian Republic, but also about 3.5 million from
Ethiopia, within the Ethiopian Federation, also from
the Republic of Jabuti, which 50-plus are ethnic
Somalis, about 1 million for Kenya. So they are all
spread over countries in the Horn of Africa.
Representatives from those regions are all here with us
so -- and they cdould communicate and share.
7733 THE CHAIRPERSON: They could
understand each other?
7734 MR. MOHAMED: Yeah.
7735 THE CHAIRPERSON: And now it is a
culture that is becoming more a written culture?
7736 MR. MOHAMED: Could you clarify that,
please?
7737 THE CHAIRPERSON: It's no more solely
an oral culture, I think I heard you say.
7738 MR. MOHAMED: Yeah. I mean, for
example, I am able to write and read in Somali and
English, but if you ask me my best way of
communication, it would be an oral. I mean, it's more
than oral, it's a way of living in a nomadic setting.
Even in you are here, we still communicate orally.
7739 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because you
wouldn't have a background of -- you culture wouldn't
have a written component?
7740 MR. MOHAMED: It was just those of us
who went to school. I mean, maybe 90 per cent of my
father's generation were not able to read and write in
Somali, althoguh Arabic was also part of our culture,
in terms of the religion, and most of us are able to
write and read. Even if they don't understand, they
are able to read and write, which is another aspect of
it.
7741 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, presumably,
radio would be of even greater importance to that
group.
7742 MR. MOHAMED: It's the only way. I
think maybe it's the only reason, despite all the other
reasons that my colleagues have mentioned, that you
should approve this application, because, as the Somali
Centre here, when we want to hold workshops or we want
to send a written message to the community, it so hard.
I mean, you can't access them or reach them. And even
if you give them a flyer, they would ask you, "Tell me
about it", I mean, without reading it, even if they can
read it.
7743 So they prefer to communicate orally.
And I believe this would really give us a chance to
communicate to the community, educate them about their
new country. But also another aspect, we are newcomers
to this country and it's very important and one of the
biggest concerns for the parents here is the need for
the children to keep their language and culture. And
we would like to see that happen and this would give us
an opportunity.
7744 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
much, Mr. Mohamed, for coming to share your
presentation with us. Thank you.
7745 MR. MOHAMED: I appreciate the
opportunity and I thank you very much.
7746 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madame la
Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.
7747 MS POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chair.
7748 The next one is presented by Barbara
Wozniak.
INTERVENTION
7749 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, Ms
Wozniak.
7750 MS WOZNIAK: Good afternoon.
7751 Madam Chair, Commissioners, my name
is Barbara Wozniak. I'm the treasurer for the Canadian
Polish Congress, the National Capital Region; treasurer
for the Polish Canadian Women's Federation, the Ottawa
Branch; and I'm on the executive committee for the
Polish Scouting Organization for all of Canada.
7752 The Polish Canadian Congress is an
umbrella organization representing Canadians of Polish
heritage. In the National Capital Region, we have 11
member organizations. There are about 25,000 Canadians
of Polish heritage residing in the Ottawa/Hull area.
7753 Last year, the Polish community in
Ottawa hosted over 120 special events. Advertising
such events to the community is done through leaflets,
the weekly church bulletin and monthly events calendar
put out by the Polish Congress. We would welcome a
high-quality radio program that is informative,
reflects our cultural values and addresses community
issues. A permanent Polish radio program would enable
the local population to be kept informed of all ongoing
events in the community in a concentrated information
slot and Polish-owned businesses serving the community
would have the ability to consolidate their advertising
with the assurance that their word is reaching the
highest number of listeners.
7754 In April, Mrs. Renu Ray presented the
proposal of Infinity Broadcasting to the executive and
members of the Polish Congress. We feel that the
multicultural aspect of local programming proposed by
Infinity will give Canadians in this region an exposure
to other cultures beyond the predominantly American
programming to which we are frequently exposed. It
will foster a positive global atmosphere, in keeping
with the advancement of the world today, as their
programming components will be supplemented by news and
information from the home countries of each ethnic
community as provide by international news
orgainzations like the BBC and Voice of America.
7755 We especailly value Infinity's
commitment to working closely with the Polish Congress
in developing a locally produced program to reflect
Ottawa-Hull's Polish community. An advisory council
formed by Infinity will have representation from the
Polish Congress and 19 other ethnic communities that
Infinity proposes to serve. It is very important that
the local characteristics of the various ethnic groups
are not at risk of being lost to out-of-market radio
forces.
7756 Infinity will broadcast Polish
programs five days a week, Monday to Friday, a total of
10 hours of weekly programming for the Polish
community, as well as 25 hours per week of World Beat
Music, featuring music from every ethnic group.
Through World Beat Music, Infinity will provide
exposure to local ethnic talent on air, as well as
providing scholarships, grants and training programs
for young musical talent in this region. Commentaries
on World Beat Music in French and English will make the
program more accessible for the bilingual members of
this community, a very important factor as this segment
of the population has demonstrated time and again its
interest in multicultural musical and community events
through their support and participation.
7757 I am a Canadian of Polish descent,
born and raised in this region. For my entire adult
life, I have been very active in the Polish community
and can say, without doubt, that connecting with one's
roots is important in creating a strong identity.
Through our ethnic schools, churches, community groups,
television and radio programs, the younger generation
has the opportunity to connect with and retain their
cultural heritage, which can only be an asset to
character development. Good quality radio programming
that reflects their local ethnic community will serve
not only as a link to their cultural background, but
will reinforce their ties to their community in this
region.
7758 From the outset, Infinity
Broadcasting have put much effort into conencting with
our community. They have shown interest in our needs
and the requirements for Polish radio programming and
have been open to healthy interaction. The Canadian
Polish Congress respectfully urges the CRTC to grant
the ethnic radio 89.9 FM licence to Infinity
Broadcasting. Thank you.
7759 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms
Wozniak.
7760 Commissioner Cardozo.
7761 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks, Madam
Chair.
7762 And thanks, Ms Wozniak. A couple of
questions. Could you give us a sense of the demography
of the Polish Canadain community, in terms of the
number of people who are immigrants and those who are
born in Canada?
7763 MS WOZNIAK: I don't have accurate
statistics, but I can tell you --
7764 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, just
roughly.
7765 MS WOZNIAK: -- in general terms --
7766 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes.
7767 MS WOZNIAK: -- that predominantly, I
would say, the larger number reflects immigrants that
came in the eighties. There was a larger influx of
immigrants because of the political --
7768 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.
7769 MS WOZNIAK: -- tensions and changes
in Poland. There was a very large immigration at that
time of Polish people. So I would say at the present
time they dominate the population. There is a small
percentage now of the older generation that came after
the war, or even prewar, because of the age factor.
7770 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.
7771 MS WOZNIAK: And, of course, the
remainder being the younger epople that either came
with their parents in the eighties or are born here.
7772 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. So
given the large number of people who came in the
eighties, is it safe to say the majority of the
community do speak Polish?
7773 MS WOZNIAK: Pardon me?
7774 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is it fair to
say the majority of the community do speak Polish, as I
understand?
7775 MS WOZNIAK: They do. And second-
and third-generation children do, as well. I am a
third-generation Pole and my children speak, read and
write Polish, as well --
7776 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Oh, yes.
7777 MS WOZNIAK: -- mainly due to the
ethnic schools, the heritage language schools, which
were mentioned earlier by another group --
7778 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.
7779 MS WOZNIAK: -- the Polish scouting,
the Polish church, and I feel a station, a program of
this nature, would be almost a connecting point for all
of these thigns because these various organizations
could promote their activities or what has been going
on and keep everyone informed.
7780 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right. And
would it also serve to bring together Polish Canadians
of different immigration waves, if I could put it that
way, people who immigranted pre- and post-war, versus
those who came in teh eighties?
7781 MS WOZNIAK: It would very much so
because there are cetain elements that sort of go
across the board, for example sport activities, or
cultural activities, such as in entertainment, music.
Classical music, it is very popular with the older
generation, but it isn't any less popular with the
younger generation. The different activities going on,
for example, in the scouting, which I'm involved in
very much, that interests three generations right
there. Those are things that are interesting across
the board to people.
7782 I feel that the program would be a
connection, a bridge, for all the different
generations.
7783 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. One of
the things we looked at in licensing commercial radio
stations like this is their business case and their
ability to attract advertising. Is it your sense that
the Polish Canadian community, the business community,
could sustain the advertising needed for 10 hours a
week, which is one of the larger blocks of language
programming that Infinity has put forward?
7784 MS WOZNIAK: I have a very strong
sense that that would not be a problem within our
community. The majority of business entrepreneurs and
business owners in the Polish community currently are
involved in the community. They are a great part of
the community. Anything of this nature that takes
place, they would be very willing to participate in it.
And we have a very broad spectrum of entrepreneurs
within our community. We have high-tech industry
owners of certain companies, high-tech companies; we
have doctors, lawyers, dentists; we have small busienss
owners, shops, delicatessens -- lots of
delicatessents -- right across the board a great
variety of businesses.
7785 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And these
popel are involved currently in the community?
7786 MS WOZNIAK: These people are very
involved in our community, yes.
7787 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, those
are my questions. Thanks very much.
7788 MS WOZNIAK: You are welcome. Thank
you.
7789 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Commissioner Cardozo.
7790 Thank you, Ms Wozniak.
7791 Madame la Secrétaire.
7792 MS POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chair.
7793 The last intervention for today will
be presented by the Council for the Arts in Ottawa,
Mr. Peter Honeywell.
INTERVENTION
7794 MR. HONEYWELL: Thank you. And
thanks for the opportunity, Madam Chairman and
Commissioners. I understand the Harbour Development
Group was entertained earlier today, so thank you for
fitting me in at the end of the day.
7795 My name is Peter Honeywell. I am the
executive director of the Council for the Arts in
Ottawa. The Council for the Arts in Ottawa was founded
in 1982, we are not for profit, membership based
organization dedicated to encouraging and developing
and appreciation of the arts in Ottawa.
7796 We have a small annual budget of
about a hundred and forty thousand dollars ($140,000)
and we raise funds through membership fees, special
events, corporate contributions and generous financial
assistance from the city of Ottawa, Ontario Trillium
Foundation and the Ontario Arts Council.
7797 Our 12 member Board of Directors is
chaired by Charles Reynolds and includes community
representatives who have a passion for the arts in
Ottawa. I am intervening today on behalf of Harvard
Developments application for the Breeze, a new smooth
jazz radio station for Ottawa. I believe this will be
a most welcomed format and it is currently not
available on our airwaves.
7798 We live in an increasingly diverse
and multi-cultured community here in Ottawa Hull. The
Breeze is committed to supporting this community,
Canadian artists, local artists and many of the arts
institutions here in the National Capital Region.
7799 I have been involved in the arts
community for about the past 25 years. For 12 years I
worked as an artist and I am keenly aware of the
challenges faced by artists as they struggle to develop
their careers.
7800 For the past 12 years, I have worked
as an arts administrator and in that capacity I have
had the opportunity to interact with artists and arts
group on a daily basis. My experiences have included
participation on numerous local arts committees and a
five-year term on a provincial organization called
"Community Arts Ontario".
7801 My exposure and involvement in the
arts has taken me to other Canadian cities and it has
given me an increased appreciation for our own local
talent and of our needs of our community. Ottawa needs
a jazz format. This brings together people from
different cultures and crosses many boundaries.
7802 The Breeze contacted us back in
January and asked how they could help and what we sat
down and figured out was that we could work together to
create an innovative program that would benefit the
local jazz artists and the jazz community.
7803 We came up with a great plan and it
is called the "Artist Travel Assistance Program". The
Breeze is committed to a minimum of forty-five thousand
dollars ($45,000) per year to help kick start this
great new support mechanism for local jazz performers
in our region. We will use our past experience and our
internal resources to administer the fund. We will
also welcome other partners so that we can build a
substantial fund to help these artists reach out and
perform at jazz festivals or take part in professional
opportunities across the country.
7804 Our idea is to create a funding
program to which artists may apply for support. We
will develop an application process and recruit
qualified pure assessment juries to review the annual
submissions.
7805 The program will allow us to fund a
portion of touring costs for approved artists. This
program can work in conjunction with national programs
that currently exist. Factor has a small touring
program, as does the Canada Council. However, their
funds are limited and for the most of the successful
applicants, they will pay 50 per cent of a touring
cost.
7806 If we are in a place to provide the
other 50 per cent, we can deliver art great jazz
artists to, say, the Vancouver Jazz Festival without
the artists having to subsidize the cost of travel
themselves.
7807 We can help to deliver our best local
talent to national and even international festivals and
stages. We were thrilled to be contracted by the
Breeze and to be able to create such a strong program
in support of our musical artists. We are pleased to
see them recognized the importance of the artists in
the community and providing direct friendly funding
directly to artists.
7808 We are committed to furthering our
arts community and believe this new program will make a
difference to many Ottawa Hull musicians. Harvard is
also committed to the same goals. Ottawa needs a new
station, we need to open our doors to a new format too.
Harvard Developments have put together a great
application. They will bring a new voice and new ideas
into the market.
7809 On behalf of the Council for the arts
in Ottawa, I am pleased to provide our support to the
Harvard Development application for The Breeze,
Ottawa's smooth jazz. Thank you.
7810 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
much, Mr. Honeywell for sharing with us this afternoon
in this third phase of our hearing.
7811 MR. HONEYWELL: All right. Thank
you.
7812 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Madame la Secrétaire.
7813 MS POIRIER: This completes the
hearing for today.
7814 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Nous allons reprendre
demain matin à neuf heures avec les intervenants de la
Phase III qui n'ont pas été entendus aujourd'hui.
7815 So we will pursue tomorrow morning
with Phase III of the hearing at 9:00 and hear the rest
of the intervenors in Phase III who have not been heard
today. We thank you and have a nice evening.
7816 A demain matin à neuf heures.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1610 to resume on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 at 0900 / L'audience est ajournée à 1610 pour reprendre le mardi 29 mai 2001 à 0900