36th Parliament, 1st Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 181
CONTENTS
Monday, February 15, 1999
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
1100
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ARMENIANS
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Karygiannis |
1105
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Julian Reed |
1110
1115
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bob Mills |
1120
1125
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Daniel Turp |
1130
1135
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Svend J. Robinson |
1140
1145
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. David Price |
1150
1155
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Karygiannis |
1200
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL FISCAL ARRANGEMENTS ACT
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-65—Time Allocation Motion
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Don Boudria |
1245
(Division 316)
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion agreed to
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Second Reading
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Szabo |
1250
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Norman Doyle |
1255
1300
1305
1310
1315
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Bryden |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Szabo |
1320
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Werner Schmidt |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John McKay |
1325
1330
1335
1340
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Werner Schmidt |
1345
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gordon Earle |
1350
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gerry Ritz |
1355
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | NATIONAL FLAG DAY
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bryon Wilfert |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | AND THE WINNER IS—
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Myron Thompson |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HERITAGE DAY
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Eleni Bakopanos |
1400
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | UNITED WAY
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | NATIONAL PAROLE BOARD
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Lynn Myers |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | FAMILIES
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Eric Lowther |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | NATIONAL PAROLE BOARD
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jacques Saada |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | 1949 STRIKE OF ASBESTOS WORKERS
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien |
1405
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | SUICIDE PREVENTION WEEK
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bernard Patry |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | KOSOVO
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bob Mills |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PUBLIC CONSULTATION
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Andy Scott |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CAPE BRETON
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Alexa McDonough |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CHEVALIER DE LORIMIER
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Francine Lalonde |
1410
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | RAF FERRY COMMAND
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Sheila Finestone |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HIGHWAYS
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Norman Doyle |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | AGRICULTURE
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Harvard |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | NATIONAL PAROLE BOARD
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Richard Marceau |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADIAN FLAG
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ken Epp |
1415
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE BUDGET
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nelson Riis |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | TAXATION
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Monte Solberg |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jim Peterson |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Monte Solberg |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jim Peterson |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Monte Solberg |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jim Peterson |
1420
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Miss Deborah Grey |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jim Peterson |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Miss Deborah Grey |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jim Peterson |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
1425
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Crête |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Crête |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEALTH CARE
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Alexa McDonough |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Elinor Caplan |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Alexa McDonough |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Elinor Caplan |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | TAXATION
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Scott Brison |
1430
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jim Peterson |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Scott Brison |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jim Peterson |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEALTH CARE
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Grant Hill |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jim Peterson |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Grant Hill |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jim Peterson |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bernard Bigras |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
1435
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bernard Bigras |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | TAXATION
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Dick Harris |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jim Peterson |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Dick Harris |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jim Peterson |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Michel Gauthier |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Michel Gauthier |
1440
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEALTH CARE
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gerry Ritz |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jim Peterson |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gerry Ritz |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jim Peterson |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
1445
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | INTERNATIONAL ASSISTANCE
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvon Charbonneau |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Denis Paradis |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | TAXATION
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ken Epp |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jim Peterson |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Ken Epp |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jim Peterson |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvon Godin |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvon Godin |
1450
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | AGRICULTURE
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Rick Borotsik |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Rick Borotsik |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Bob Speller |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | FOREIGN AFFAIRS
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Sue Barnes |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PUBLIC WORKS
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Rob Anders |
1455
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Alfonso Gagliano |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Pauline Picard |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | THE ECONOMY
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nelson Riis |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Jim Peterson |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | NATIONAL DEFENCE
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. David Price |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
1500
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | HEALTH
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Szabo |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Elinor Caplan |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PRESENCE IN GALLERY
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | The Speaker |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
1505
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | CANADA ELECTIONS ACT
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-478. Introduction and first reading
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Roy Bailey |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | RECOGNITION OF CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY ACT
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-479. Introduction and first reading
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | PETITIONS
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Marriage
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Miss Deborah Grey |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Human Rights
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Szabo |
1510
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bilateral Agreements
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nelson Riis |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Taxation
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Paul Bonwick |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ghana Airways
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gurbax Singh Malhi |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Tobacco
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gurbax Singh Malhi |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Marriage
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Murray Calder |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Rights of Grandparents
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Lynn Myers |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Mac Harb |
1515
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Cummins |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Rick Borotsik |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL FISCAL ARRANGEMENTS ACT
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Bill C-65. Second reading
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gerry Ritz |
1520
1525
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Tony Valeri |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nelson Riis |
1530
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
1535
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Steve Mahoney |
1540
1545
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Gary Lunn |
1550
1555
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Nelson Riis |
1600
1605
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Denis Coderre |
1610
1615
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Roy Bailey |
1620
1625
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Bryden |
1630
1635
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Mike Scott |
1640
1645
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Pierre de Savoye |
1650
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Peter Adams |
1655
1700
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Chuck Strahl |
1705
1710
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Lynn Myers |
1715
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
1720
1725
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Murray Calder |
1730
1735
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jim Abbott |
1740
1745
1750
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Bonnie Brown |
1755
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Werner Schmidt |
1800
1805
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Stan Keyes |
1810
1815
1840
(Division 317)
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Motion agreed to
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
|
1845
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Employment Insurance
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Yvon Godin |
1850
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Bonnie Brown |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Royal Canadian Mounted Police
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. John Solomon |
1855
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Jacques Saada |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | East Timor
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Svend J. Robinson |
1900
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Hon. Raymond Chan |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Poverty
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Libby Davies |
1905
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Ms. Bonnie Brown |
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Aboriginal Affairs
|
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. Myron Thompson |
1910
![V](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/b_stone1.gif) | Mr. David Iftody |
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 181
![](/web/20071219090738im_/http://www2.parl.gc.ca/common/images/crest2.gif)
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Monday, February 15, 1999
The House met at 11 a.m.
Prayers
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
1100
[English]
ARMENIANS
Mr. Jim Karygiannis (Scarborough—Agincourt, Lib.) moved:
(a) join the members of the Canadian Armenian community in
honouring the memory of the 1.5 million men, women and children
who fell victim of the first genocide of the 20th century;
(b) condemn the genocide of the Armenians and all other acts of
genocide committed during our century as the ultimate act of
racial, religious and cultural intolerance;
(c) recognize the importance of remembering and learning from
such dark chapters in human history to ensure that such crimes
against humanity are not allowed to be repeated;
(d) condemn and prevent all attempts to use the passage of time
to deny or distort the historical truth of the genocide of the
Armenians and other acts of genocide committed during this
century;
(e) designate April 24 of every year hereafter throughout Canada
as a day of remembrance of the 1.5 million Armenians who fell
victim to the first genocide of this century; and
(f) call on the Government of Canada officially to condemn the
genocide of the Armenians and any attempts to deny such crimes
against humanity.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Armenian World Alliance for
its inspiration to draft this motion as well as Mr. Haig Misakyan
and Hratch Tourikian for their support and guidance; also, Mr.
Aris Babikian of the Armenian National Federation and Apkar
Mirakian of the Canadian Armenian National Committee for their
continuous support.
The purpose of this motion is to give official Canadian
recognition of the Armenian genocide which started April 24, 1915
and lasted until 1923, during which over 1.5 million Armenians
were subjected to systematic extermination through a policy of
deportation, torture, starvation and mostly massacre.
I would like first of all, just so that we are clear on what is
at the heart of this motion, to read the Oxford Dictionary
definition of genocide which defines it as “the deliberate
extermination of a race or nation”.
1105
The facts of the Armenian genocide are well known and I will not
take up the time of the House with a long list of historical
references. I would, however, like to point out that this
recognition of the death of 1.5 million victims is long overdue.
Parliament passed a motion with regard to this event in April
1996. The motion was, however, changed in a critical manner by
dropping the word “genocide” and replacing it with the term
“tragic event”. To my mind, the sinking of the Titanic
and the great Halifax fire were tragic events. What happened was
and is nothing other than genocide and to call it anything else
is to deny its existence.
In March and April 1980 the Ontario legislature and the Quebec
national assembly passed a resolution asking the Government of
Canada to recognize and officially condemn this genocide and the
atrocities committed the Ottoman government against the Armenian
people. The United Nations recognized Armenian genocide in 1986
and the European parliament voted to recognize this genocide in
1987, as well as the Belgian, Greek, French and Australian
parliaments.
I believe that the House made a mistake by trivializing this
horrendous act of barbarism and I am disappointed that this
motion was not made a votable motion so that the House could take
the necessary steps to right this wrong once and for all.
The other section of my motion such as the designation of April
24 as a day of remembrance would I believe be most fitting under
the circumstances and it would not involve making it a national
holiday.
The condemnation of attempts to deny or distort what happened
during the years of the genocide is to ensure that the Ernst
Zundels of this world cannot refute what is fact.
As I mentioned, April 24 was the beginning of the Armenian
genocide committed by the Ottoman empire in 1915. On that day
300,000 intellectuals were rounded up from their houses and taken
into the desert. The leadership of the community was taken so
there would be no resistance to this crime that was to be carried
out over the next eight to twelve months.
As a result of this holocaust 1.5 million people were murdered
and another 500,000 were deported from their homelands. As of
now the crime remains unpunished.
We all know very well what happened to the Jewish population in
World War II beginning in 1939. The world was silent. It stood
silent while six million Jews were slaughtered. Nobody said a
word until the war was over. Why did we have to wait until the
number reached six million before we spoke out? Why do we have
to wait until the numbers reached 1.5 million before we spoke
out? Why can we not make our position known to everyone that
this will not be tolerated?
In 1939 when Adolf Hitler was giving his orders to SS units to
slaughter the Jewish population he said “Who remembers the
extermination of the Armenian people today?” That was on August
9, 1939. Today is February 15, 1999. I hope and pray this House
will remember that the message of Adolf Hitler was wrong in 1939.
I and many members of the House have spoken against this
genocide. We should continue to do that because it is very
important to remember.
I would like to conclude with what has been a rather overused
cliché but one I believe is apt under the circumstances, that
those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it.
Let us not forget.
Mr. Julian Reed (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I seek the unanimous
consent of the House to divide my time with the member for Laval
West.
The Deputy Speaker: Does the House give its consent to
divide the time, I presume equally?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Julian Reed: Mr. Speaker, there is an ongoing dispute
between people of Armenian and Turkish descent about events that
took place during World War I in the Ottoman empire.
We see Armenians in Canada and elsewhere asking for recognition
that genocide was committed in 1915 against Armenian populations
of Anatolia.
This request is often associated with suggestions that
restitution should be paid to the Armenians or that territorial
adjustments should be made to the existing border between Turkey
and Armenia. Turkey has rejected these claims.
1110
On the other hand, we see the Turkish people profoundly hurt by
the accusation of genocide. The Turkish government, expressing
views of Turkish public opinion in general, reacts sharply
against such an accusation. Turkish authorities also fear that
the kind of terrorism used in the past by some fanatic Armenian
underground organizations to promote their claims could
resurface.
In trying to understand the points of view of both sides in this
conflict we should always remind ourselves that there was
enormous suffering for all the people involved in the 1915 events
and that in addition to the death of solders there were literally
millions of innocent civilian victims in this conflict on both
sides. We have to be respectful of that suffering and therefore
tread carefully and avoid making hasty judgments.
There is a tendency nowadays to use the word genocide in a
non-technical manner and even sometimes almost as a metaphor. We
have all heard expressions like economic genocide or cultural
genocide. One should realize, however, that genocide is a very
specific crime and a particularly horrendous one. When making an
accusation of genocide implied is the fact that there are
criminals who are responsible for the crime.
What happened in 1915? Both sides in the dispute have their own
parts of view and generally highlight different events. The
Turkish side emphasises particularly events at the beginning of
World War I. The Ottoman empire entered World War I on November
1, 1914 on the side of the central powers and became
automatically at war with the Russian empire.
According to historians favourable to the Turkish side, an
Armenian rebellion against military conscription had begun in
August 1914, even before the beginning of the war. Particularly
in eastern Anatolia, Armenian guerrilla bands organized and
obtained some arms and support from Russia. In theory, young
Armenian males should have been conscripted into the army along
with Muslims, but tens of thousands escaped to join guerrilla
bands or fled to Russia, ultimately to fight alongside the
Russian army when it marched into Anatolia. The general picture
that is created is that of a rebellious Armenian population which
had particular affinities with the Russian invading army, one of
them being the Christian religion.
One particularly noteworthy episode of this war was the
rebellion in and around the city of Van in March 1915 when the
imperial Russian army was approaching Van. The uprising quickly
took the character of an intercommunal war. Armed Armenian bands
attacked Muslims, mainly Kurdish villages. Kurdish tribesmen
retaliated by attacking Armenian villages. Victims fell on both
sides. The Armenian rebels eventually took control of the city
of Van were some 30,000 Muslims perished between February and
April 1915 according to Turkish estimates. These events are
still commemorated every year in Van. Similar episodes
reportedly occurred in other cities and villages as the Russians
advanced in eastern Anatolia. The victory for the Russians was
also the victory for the Armenians. Large Muslin populations in
turn had to flee to central Anatolia.
Armenians focus on particular episodes of the conflict starting
in April 1915. On April 24, soon after the events in Van,
Ottoman authorities proceeded to arrest some 235 Armenian leaders
for activities against the state. This is a date which has a
symbolic value for Armenians and they claim that these 235
leaders, the elite of the Armenian society at the time in the
empire, were the object of a massacre. This claim is rejected by
Turkish authorities.
Soon after, in may 1915, the Ottoman council of ministers
ordered the forced relocation of Armenian communities of central,
eastern and southeastern Anatolia to Syria, Lebanon and Iraq,
which at the time were Ottoman provinces. The decision was
implemented gradually over the next two years. Of the estimated
700,000 Armenians who were thus forcefully relocated, many died
due to the manner in which the relocation was taking place at a
time when the Ottoman empire was collapsing.
1115
They perished mainly due to disease, harsh weather, exposure and
hunger. This is the episode that many Armenians believe
constitutes genocide. They portray this deportation as a
decision aimed at exterminating the Armenian population in
general.
Turkish authorities argue that this was not the case and that
although many people died as a result of the relocation it was
not intended as a measure to kill Armenians and that there is no
proof to that effect. Turkish authorities have argued that the
so-called Andonian papers which appeared in the 1950s and
attributed genocidal decisions to high Ottoman leaders of the
time were simply forgeries, not corroborated by any official
documents of the time. On the contrary, they contend that the
evidence of the official archives of the time, which are open to
historians, reveals that the relocation was intended to be
conducted in a humanitarian manner.
What happened after World War I? The armistice that put an end
to World War I in 1918 sanctioned the collapse of the Ottoman
empire. The empire no longer existed as a sovereign state.
Istanbul was occupied by the allies, the ports of northwestern
Anatolia by the British, southern Anatolia by the Italians,
southeastern Anatolia by the French and the Armenian legion,
western Anatolia by Greeks, and northeastern Anatolia by
Armenians.
It was in the spring and summer of 1919 that General Mustafa
Kemal Ataturk decided to mobilize the country and to wage war
against all occupiers, thus laying the foundations of modern
Turkey. For all population groups of Anatolia this meant further
war. The Turkish army reconquered eastern Turkish cities and
territories still occupied by the Armenians and marched north
more or less up to the present Turkish borders with Armenia and
Georgia.
There was enormous suffering on both sides. There was also
immense suffering on the part of innocent civilian populations.
The succession of wars and conflicts that took place during this
period in that part of the world is staggering. Exact figures of
people killed during such a troubled period of history are
extremely difficult to determine.
At the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 the head of the Armenian
delegation set the figure for Armenian losses at 300,000. By
1989, 1.5 million had become the number generally used by the
Armenians. Turkish scholars argue that a more realistic figure
based on data available would be around 600,000. The same
scholars estimate that the civilian Muslim losses during the same
period could be between 2.5 million and 3 million people. In any
case the figures of those who died, both Armenians and
non-Armenians, are very large.
How should Canada respond? What we should do today is to try to
encourage reconciliation, tolerance and respect for the suffering
of all groups in the region and their descendants for whom these
events are not far away in history but unfortunately all too
present in their daily lives.
The resolution before the House is not what is needed. It is
not helpful in bringing about tolerance, a more dispassionate
look at the past, and eventually reconciliation. It asks us to
take one side in a matter which is offensive to the other side.
If we as Canadians want to be helpful in this respect we should
be careful not to exacerbate old and bitter conflicts. We should
try to bring closure for the Armenians and Turks and encourage
each side to see and recognize the terrible suffering through
which the other side went.
It is the sense of government that the House of Commons as an
institution should not do anything that would bring new tensions
between Canadians of Armenian and Turkish descent.
Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I would like
to recognize the members of the Armenian National Committee who
are in the gallery, members of the Turkish community who are
here, and all those who are watching this issue so carefully.
What we have just seen indicates probably how volatile the issue
is.
We are talking about a time period from 1915 to 1923. Among all
parties and all Canadians we find a great deal of
misunderstanding and hostility which shows how volatile the issue
is.
1120
In reading the documentation on both sides of the issue, one
starts to realize how terrible the word genocide is and the type
of killing that can go on over religion, various ethnic mixes and
so on. We have listened to some of the history and we could get
the same history on either side. I was moved by the severity of
the information we can read on the issue.
I would like to talk about four points. The first is a motion
like this one being dealt with in the House. In the ethnic
communities across Canada, of which we are all very proud and
which are an intricate part of the country, we so often fail to
let them know how the House of Commons works. A motion like this
one is put and they actually have hope that their particular area
will be dealt with, that they will get something from the House
of Commons.
Mr. Speaker, you have been here long enough to know that will
not happen. A motion like this one is not really a debate. It
does not put all the issues on the table. It is not coming to
any kind of a conclusion. I think that is wrong and is one area
we must change in the House of Commons. We must make these
things more meaningful because they are so deep in the hearts of
the people who are involved.
Second is the issue of genocide itself. We could get out the
dictionary and talk about what it is. I probably could bring
forward the best meaning from my visit to Bosnia where we went
out and actually talked to the people. We went into churches,
mosques, bars and restaurants. We stopped little old ladies on
the street and asked them what they thought of what was
happening.
I was in nine different schools where I asked the students to
write in their own words what it meant to be part of ethnic
cleansing. I asked them to tell me what their futures were and
what would really happen. The words of those kids were pretty
touching. They made us cry. If we talk to Serbian children they
tell us about the terrible killings that went on and about the
600,000 people who died. They would describe it like it was
yesterday, but they were talking about back in 1943.
We could talk to Croat children and Muslim children and they
would tell us about things as if they happened yesterday. I will
always remember one little girl's face when she was telling me
about the killings. She was talking about the killings in 1536
like it was yesterday. That is what genocide is all about.
Whether we are talking about the Roman empire, the Greeks,
Napoleon, the Vikings, the African tribes, the first world war or
the second world war or whomever, we will find incidents of what
we would classify as genocide, a holocaust. Whatever words we
use they are all horrible.
In parliament we often have a double standard in the way we
think about things. Quite often we do not have all the
information. Every time I hear that our prime minister or
foreign affairs minister has visited Cuba again—I know about the
horrible human rights abuses in that country—I get mad because
of that standard. People are being persecuted in Cuba.
I read all the material and to try to put some real meaning to
it I took some quotes at random from either side.
I heard things like: “People fled with whatever property they
could carry. On the road they were robbed, the women were
repeatedly raped and then the men were killed. Women and young
children were then killed systematically. My mother's cousin,
with her child still nursing at her breast, was shot. Later that
still nursing baby was killed with a bayonet”. That is
genocide. That is horrible. All of us would say that is inhuman.
We cannot let that happen.
1125
When we talk about this sort of thing, it is the human issues we
are talking about. I can see why people feel so emotional about
them and why they remember 1915 and why they remember 1536 and so
on. The events are so horrible that they would undoubtedly
change people who witnessed them for the rest of their lives and
it would be passed on from generation to generation.
It is time to move on. We need to get all the information on
the table, whether it is the Armenian-Turkish situation, what
happened in World War II or what happened in Nanking, China, when
the Japanese came. Wherever it happened it is time to get
historians to put all the cards on the table. In a House like
ours we look at the history but most important we move on.
Canada has an important world role. We are members of almost
everything. We are members of all important organizations and
have a very important role in them. The level of respect for
Canadians gives us that role. Our role is one of a negotiator.
We are good at that. It is one thing we can do well.
Canada has a role whether it is solving the problem of the
Armenian-Turkish-Ottoman crisis that is so real to people, or
whether it is something between India and Pakistan, between
Israel and Palestine, in Sudan between the north and the south
and 43 years of war, or north Korea and south Korea. The list
goes on and on.
I could talk about the genocide and the killings on both sides,
but if there is one message to send it is what should Canadians
be doing in foreign affairs. I do not believe a soft power
approach is the way to go. I do not believe in simply waiting
and seeing what happens, kind of coasting along and making
grandiose statements about people and so on.
Let us do something. Let us not let the Rwandas happen. Let us
not let the Kosovos happen. Let us take an active role and let
us back it up with a modern, well mandated military that knows
what it is doing. Let us back it up with some power. We need to
do some real reform of how we look at the UN and of how we handle
all these issues. It is diplomacy. That is what it is about.
As Canadian politicians we should be putting forward, instead of
more conflict, an academic approach to the records. Some of
these countries will not even open up their records or files so
we have to do that. If there is one message it is that we must
move on.
[Translation]
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to speak today on behalf of the Bloc Quebecois to the
motion by the hon. member for Scarborough—Agincourt on
recognizing the Armenian genocide.
This motion allows the Bloc Quebecois to reiterate the position
it has stated many times before in this House, which is that it
should recognize the existence of the Armenian genocide and add
its voice to those of other parliaments affirming this genocide.
1130
The Bloc Quebecois in fact, through the voice of its member for
Ahuntsic at the time, Michel Daviault, initiated a major debate
on this issue in April 1996, when we devoted an entire
opposition day to this matter and tried to convince the members
of the House to accord such recognition.
My colleague, the member for Laval East, has since then, in both
1997 and 1998, drawn attention to this unfortunate anniversary
of the genocide, which falls on April 24 each year. So, the
members of this House and all interested individuals and groups
will not be surprised that we in the Bloc Quebecois support
Motion M-329.
We support it because it is part of a movement whose aim is not
to rewrite history or revise it, as some claim or would claim,
but to commemorate it. The great moments of history must be
commemorated, but so must its darkest moments, and the Armenian
genocide is one of the darkest moments in the history of
humanity.
It must not be forgotten, and must not be obliterated from
people's memory. This Parliament, like the National Assembly
and the Ontario legislature, must write a page in history by
giving recognition to the Armenian genocide. Parliament must
take the route traced by other parliaments in the international
community, the Russian Duma, the Israeli Knesset and more
recently the French National Assembly and the Belgian senate as
well as the supranational institution that is the European
parliament.
It is a page of history the successors to the Ottoman Empire
would like us to forget, which the Turkish ambassador to Ottawa
presented to me in a different light. I listened to him. I
read the documents and commentaries he provided me with, but I
also read and reread the testimonies of Armenians about the
genocide of which they say they were victims.
I spoke to Garine Hovsepian, who was one of my students in the
past and is now studying law in the United States. She is of
Armenian origin and has told me of the sufferings of a people
which, like so many others, has had to disperse all over the
world, reinvent itself, create a diaspora. That dispersion was
not ended with the creation of an Armenian state in 1918, and
its rebirth in 1991. This created a land for the Armenians, a
place for them, but did not bring back the dead, it did not
erase the memories of the massacres of children, women and men.
The memory of the massacre in which 2.5 million Armenians met
horrible deaths between 1915 and 1923 continues to shock the
conscience of humanity 84 years later. What continues to shock
that conscience, as do the more recent atrocities committed in
Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia or Kosovo, is the barbary of that
massacre. It was described in one of the most eloquent and
credible descriptions of the Armenian genocide by the allied
powers in a statement made on July 17, 1920, which has been kept
in the French national archives:
The Armenians were massacred in conditions of incredible
barbarity. During the war, the Ottoman government's actions in
terms of massacres, deportations and mistreatment to prisoners
went far beyond anything it had ever done in these areas.
It is estimated that, since 1914, the Ottoman government has
massacred, under the untenable pretence of a presumed revolt,
800,000 Armenian men, women and children, and deported more than
200,000 Greeks and 200,000 Armenians. The Turkish government has
not only failed to protect its subjects of non-Turkish origin
against looting, violence and murder, but a large body of
evidence indicates that it also took a hand in organizing and
carrying out the most ferocious attacks against communities
which it was its duty to protect.
1135
After hearing the hon. member for Brampton Centre, who often
speaks on behalf of the Armenian community in the House, refer
to the Der-zor River, a historic site for Armenians scattered
around the world, as a place where bones and human remains lie
under a mere six inches of sand, there is no choice but to
demand that responsibility be taken a step further, by
acknowledging this fact as others did, such as Germany following
the Holocaust, making an act of contrition and taking whatever
steps are necessary to ensure this is not devoid of any real
meaning.
It is not for me to elaborate, because I realize the frustration
of people, who wish this chapter in history had never been
written, are not proud of what their ancestors did and the fact
that their government denies these crimes were ever committed,
and take refuge in silence, something they should not feel duty
bound to do, no matter how strong their sense of solidarity is.
However, it is my duty and it is the duty of the Bloc Quebecois
to make a statement of principle that crimes of genocide and
crimes against humanity must be recognized. This will heal the
deep wounds, help the victims of genocide make their peace with
those they hold in contempt and help those who, generation after
generation, have been held in contempt to cast off the burden of
history.
As an internationalist, I would be remiss if I failed to mention
that the crime of genocide, as a concept, has long been accepted
in international law.
The Turkish government cannot hide behind that fact there was no
word in the League of Nations terminology between 1919 and 1923
to describe it—the term was coined in 1944 by a Polish lawyer
named Raphael Lemkin—to contend that the crime was not
committed. Did one of the first resolutions passed by the United
Nations General Assembly on December 11, 1946, not state that
genocide was a crime under international common law and thus may
have been committed even before it was decided to give it that
name?
Furthermore, this is in no way altered by the 50th anniversary
of the adoption of the Convention on the Prevention and
Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, which we celebrated even
more solemnly than that of the Universal Declaration of Human
Rights on December 9, because it codifies the existence of a
crime and provides the legal framework by which states agree to
prevent and punish the crime of genocide.
A recorded division on this motion would show every member of
the Bloc Quebecois in favour.
They were hoping to be able to vote on a motion that government
members had not watered down, the way they did in 1996,
relegating the genocide of the Armenians to the status of a
tragedy. They would not be afraid of offending the Turkish
government, which must face up to history and prepare to enter
the 21st century by recognizing the first genocide of the 20th
century. For they know, as do the Turks and many other nations,
that although the truth hurts, it also frees nations to grow, to
mature, to be appreciated.
Nor are they afraid to say to the other countries of the world
that the existence of nations, on whatever continent, must never
be threatened, that nations and their cultures enrich humanity's
common heritage.
They will not be afraid to say that this is also a question of
justice and freedom, about which Albert Camus wrote the
following, “If humanity fails to reconcile justice and freedom,
it has failed at everything that matters”.
[English]
Mr. Svend J. Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased and honoured to rise to strongly support
the motion which has been placed before the House today by my
colleague from Scarborough—Agincourt, not only speaking on my
own behalf but on behalf of my colleagues in the New Democratic
caucus.
In doing so I want to pay tribute to the ongoing leadership of
the Armenian National Committee of Canada which has kept this
issue alive through a number of parliaments. Today we are joined
by a number of of representatives of the Armenian National
Committee and I want to salute them: Giro Manoyan, Rouben
Kouyngian, Sylvia Baronian and Aris Babikian. It is important to
acknowledge these individuals for the leadership they have shown
on this issue, along of course with others such as the president,
Girair Basmadjian.
1140
I listened to the debate with interest. I appreciated the
eloquent remarks of the mover of the motion. The official
spokesperson for the government, the Parliamentary Secretary to
the Minister of Foreign Affairs, was very clear. The Liberal
government does not support this motion. That was quite obvious.
He was quite up front about that which is no surprise given the
position the government took in 1996 on another motion.
I have to confess some bewilderment in listening to the
spokesperson on behalf of the Reform Party. He talked about
Bosnia. He talked about Rwanda. He talked about the United
Nations. He talked about international law. But the one thing
he did not talk about was the motion. Did he support the motion
or did he oppose the motion? No one in this House and no one in
the country knows what the position of the Reform Party is after
that speech.
I hope that perhaps another spokesperson, maybe the member for
West Vancouver, might have an opportunity to clarify exactly
where the Reform Party of Canada stands on this motion, because
certainly we did not find out from its official spokesperson.
[Translation]
I was very pleased to hear the Bloc Quebecois member for
Beauharnois—Salaberry supporting the motion. I recall clearly
the very eloquent speech given by Michel Daviault on the subject
in April 1996, during the last debate.
[English]
It is clear where most of the parties stand on this issue.
This has been an issue that my colleagues and I have been
involved in for some time. I have a motion before the House that
states:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should
officially recognize and condemn the Armenian genocide of
1915-1923 perpetrated by the Turkish-Ottoman government, which
resulted in the murder of over one and one-half Armenians;
designate April 24 as the day of annual commemoration of the
Armenian genocide; and press the Government of Turkey to
recognize and acknowledge the genocide and provide redress to the
Armenian people.
That motion is before the House and it is also before the
foreign affairs committee where it will be coming to a vote in
the not too distant future.
I had the privilege of travelling to Armenia shortly after the
devastating earthquake some years ago. I had the opportunity to
meet with leaders of Armenia and to hear of the terrible and
tragic legacy of suffering of those people. The greatest tragedy,
the greatest suffering and yes, the genocide, was in 1915 to
1923, the first genocide of this dark century, the 20th century,
a century in which we also witnessed genocide in other parts of
the world, the Nazi Holocaust of World War II, the genocide in
East Timor, in Rwanda, in Cambodia and elsewhere.
[Translation]
The member for Beauharnois—Salaberry quoted French archival
material from 1920, which describes exactly what happened in
this genocide.
[English]
While this was a tragedy, it was far beyond that. It was
genocide and it was shameful that in this House in April 1996
when we had an opportunity to tell the truth, to be honest, to
speak about what actually happened, instead some Liberal members,
speaking on behalf of the government, watered down that motion.
1145
We have to ask why they are taking this position. Could it have
something to do with economic relations or trade relations with
Turkey? It might just have something to do with the fact that we
are trying to sell Candu reactors to Turkey. My goodness, we do
not want to offend the Turkish government if it might interfere
with the sale of Candu reactors. Good heavens no. We do not
want to offend the Turkish government if it might interfere with
our sale of military equipment to that country. Of course that
has nothing to do with the position the government members are
taking.
I want to speak for a moment about the Turkish government. The
Turkish government has for too long displayed contempt for
international law not just in this area but in too many others.
Its contempt has been displayed in its reluctance to apply the
principles of international law in its ongoing disputes with
Greece; the continued illegal occupation by Turkey of part of
Cypress; the profound violation of human rights of the Kurdish
people in Turkey; the lack of respect for human rights,
individual collective freedoms, attacks on journalists and
others, attacks on freedom of religion; the continued
imprisonment of elected members of parliament like Leyla Zana and
others.
It is time our Liberal government showed some courage and
honesty and spoke out on the genocide, condemned the genocide and
recognized the truth.
Following the Holocaust of World War II, nations of the world
adopted a convention on genocide. Canada was one of the
signatories to that convention. Why today are we not prepared to
acknowledge the truth of what happened? It is a very
straightforward matter. We owe it to the victims of that
genocide and to their families. We owe it to all Canadians to
ensure that this genocide that killed 1.5 million Armenians is
never repeated.
Today what we are asking for is the truth. That is all. This
parliament has an opportunity today to allow the truth to be told
and honesty to be our policy.
In closing, I once again appeal to all members of this House but
most importantly to the Liberal government to end their silence
and their revisionist history. Listening to the history lesson
from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign
Affairs was an astonishing experience because it flies in the
face of reality in that region and denies the truth of the
genocide.
On behalf of my colleagues in the New Democratic Party, it is an
honour to join not just with Armenian Canadians but to join with
parliaments such as the Belgium Senate, the French National
Assembly, the European Parliament, the Israeli Knesset, the
Russian Duma and many others that have taken this step. If they
can take this step and acknowledge the truth, why can we not do
the same in Canada?
Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, PC): Mr. Speaker, I
would like to thank the member for Scarborough—Agincourt for
bringing this important matter to the House of Commons.
One of the great tragedies of World War I was the deaths of 1.5
million Armenians at the hands of the Ottoman empire. It is
another sad episode in the history of modern warfare.
1150
Prior to the wars of the French Revolution in 1792, war was very
much a matter of battle between opposing armies. Few civilians
were ever killed. There were episodes in every war where cities
were sacked and women assaulted after decisive battles outside of
city gates, but few civilians were killed.
The wars of the French Revolution changed all that. The past
pattern of warfare between small professional standing armies
came to an end when the French instituted the conscription of
troops in 1793 to fight the Austrians and their allies. The days
of the small professional armies manoeuvring across country and
only giving battle to punish a strategically placed inferior
opponent were over with. Henceforth armies were large, unwieldy
mobs of civilians in uniform trying to kill each other and battle
was given quite freely.
The advent of the industrial revolution just made warfare far
more deadly and machine dependent. Due to the combination of
conscription and the industrial revolution, the foundation of a
nation's military strength changed. By the 1850s the true
foundation of a nation's military strength had begun to rest on
the size of its civilian population and its industrial
infrastructure. Modern warfare was born.
It took almost the next 100 years to perfect it to a point where
in World War II one could argue that civilians and industrial
infrastructure had become the real targets. That is the real
evil of modern war. In World War I, 20 million people were
killed, the majority being soldiers, but in World War II, 50
million people were killed, the majority now being civilians.
Many Canadians know the horrors of the Holocaust and the evils
of Nazism, but few Canadians know of the misfortune of the
Armenians butchered because they were stuck between the Ottoman
empire and the Russians. The decaying Ottoman empire found them
to be a threat. The Armenians were an industrious, energetic
Christian community awash in an Ottoman Turkish sea. Out of a
population of two million Armenians, one and one-half million
were killed.
The massacre of civilian populations has always been the ugliest
aspect of modern war. The Armenians suffered from what today
would be termed ethnic cleansing. The survivors escaped into
Russia or faced forced resettlement. Indeed the Geneva protocols
were brought forward by like-minded nations to protect civilian
populations like the Armenians from the ravages of war. Later the
League of Nations attempted to protect civilian populations
between the wars. After the second world war, the United Nations
took on the challenging job of trying to prevent war and protect
civilians.
The terrible truth is that even though we see ourselves as more
civilized than our forefathers on this planet, we are not. Every
day we hear of the terrible human cost of modern war: Rwanda,
Burundi, Bosnia, Croatia, and now Kosovo; where ethnic groups are
the targets of the most reprehensible acts known to mankind,
places where Canada has always dispatched peacekeepers and
peacemakers to end these brutal practices.
Canada sent troops to Rwanda under the command of the United
Nations and led by a Canadian, a brave Canadian, Lieutenant
General Romeo Dallaire. They were forced to witness one of the
worst episodes in man's inhumanity to man.
Canadians were also in the former Yugoslavia, in Bosnia and
Croatia and again witnessed unspeakable atrocities, atrocities
similar to what one and a half million Armenians suffered. In
Sarajevo a group of Canadians led by General Lewis MacKenzie
distinguished themselves at an airport trying to help the
unfortunate in Bosnia. Again outside a small village in Croatia,
in an area known as the Medak Pocket, Canadians attempted to put
a stop to ethnic cleansing.
Unfortunately for Canada's badly neglected military, they will
likely find themselves soon in Kosovo trying again to protect
civilians from harm. Canada has always stood up for those who
need our assistance and who could not protect themselves.
The fact that wars, horrible wars, both state on state and state
on sub-state or ethnic group continue on this planet is the key
reason that the Government of Canada must commit some of its
coming budget surpluses to its neglected, cut to the bone
military.
Indeed, the government must re-equip our forces so that Canada
will be able to play a more important role on the world stage in
trying to stop the horrors of war and ethnic violence.
1155
The fact that the Armenian people suffered at the hands of a
dying empire between 1915 and 1918 is of great sadness to all in
this House and to all Canadians. Armenian Canadians have
contributed greatly to the fabric of Canadian society and culture
and we are all richer for that. It is only fitting that we
remember them here today below the chimes of the Peace Tower, and
that we take steps to prevent this past tragedy and other
inhumanities from ever taking place again.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I came here this morning prepared to defend the motion
made by my hon. colleague for Scarborough—Agincourt.
I was shocked, really shocked, to hear the parliamentary
secretary give a speech which lies totally against the truth. I
have here an article from the Globe dated January 28, 1916.
It speaks of atrocities. I do not know who wrote the speech for
the hon. member or what he had for breakfast but it puzzles me
that we have people in foreign affairs who can twist the truth
the way this gentleman has done.
The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The hon. member will
recognize that it would be quite improper for him to suggest that
an hon. member of this House would twist the truth. In any
event, the member's time has expired.
The hon. member for Scarborough—Agincourt will have five
minutes to conclude the debate. I advise the House that if he
speaks now, he will close the debate.
Mr. Jim Karygiannis: Mr. Speaker, in view of my colleague
for Brampton Centre and his background, I will ask for unanimous
consent that we give him two minutes as well as recognize this
motion.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Deputy Speaker: Is the hon. member for
Scarborough—Agincourt going to continue with his speech?
Mr. Jim Karygiannis (Scarborough—Agincourt, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I listened to my colleague, the Parliamentary Secretary
to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, with great interest. I know
he probably does not believe what he said. I know what he said
was probably something that was put in front of him this morning.
Today's Turkish government is 75 years old, having celebrated
its 75th birthday. It started in 1922. My colleague kept
referring to Turkey Ottoman, Ottoman Turkey. Obviously we can see
clearly that the member does not have his facts straight.
The atrocities of that particular time happened by the Ottoman
empire. The Ottoman empire was collapsing. Everybody in that
part of the world was committing atrocities. The Armenian
genocide did happen. The 350 Greeks of the Black Sea were killed.
People were moved. An exchange of population happened.
I wonder, would the hon. member also refute the fact that my
ancestors had to flee Anatolia, that my grandfather had to go on
a ship and had one arm cut off? If the member refutes that, I
will certainly point out to him the December 1922 issue of
National Geographic. His picture is there.
Let us not muzzle history. Let us not cover up history.
Atrocities happen. The Armenian genocide happened. Is my hon.
colleague also going to stand here and say that the atrocities in
Warsaw did not happen? Is my hon. colleague going to say the
Jews just stood there and took it and they did not defend
themselves? The Armenians defended themselves.
Having heard what has been put in front of us, I am really
shocked. I am really amazed that history had to be turned upside
down and recorded as we see fit.
I stand and ask for unanimous consent for this motion to be
recognized as votable.
The Deputy Speaker: Does the hon. member have the
unanimous consent of the House that this motion be made votable?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
1200
The Deputy Speaker: The time provided for the consideration
of Private Members' Business has now expired and the order is
dropped from the order paper.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[Translation]
FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL FISCAL ARRANGEMENTS ACT
BILL C-65—TIME ALLOCATION MOTION
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I move:
That, in relation to Bill C-65,
An Act to amend the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act,
not more than one further sitting day shall be allotted to the
consideration of the second reading stage of the said Bill and,
fifteen minutes before the expiry of the time provided
for government business on the day allotted to the consideration
of the second reading stage of the said Bill, any proceedings
before the House shall be interrupted, if required for the
purpose of this Order, and in turn every question necessary for
the disposal of the stage of the Bill then under consideration
shall be put forthwith and successively without further debate or
amendment.
[English]
The Deputy Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to
adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Deputy Speaker: All those in favour of the motion
will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Deputy Speaker: All those opposed will please say
nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Deputy Speaker: In my opinion the nays have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Deputy Speaker: Call in the members.
1245
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Anderson
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Augustine
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bertrand
|
Bevilacqua
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Bonwick
|
Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Byrne
| Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
|
Caplan
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Chan
| Charbonneau
| Clouthier
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Dromisky
|
Duhamel
| Easter
| Eggleton
| Finestone
|
Finlay
| Folco
| Fontana
| Gagliano
|
Gallaway
| Godfrey
| Goodale
| Graham
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Harb
| Harvard
|
Hubbard
| Iftody
| Jackson
| Jennings
|
Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
| Keyes
|
Kilger
(Stormont – Dundas)
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lincoln
| MacAulay
| Mahoney
| Malhi
|
Maloney
| Manley
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Massé
|
McCormick
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
|
McTeague
| McWhinney
| Mifflin
| Minna
|
Mitchell
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Normand
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Pagtakhan
|
Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
|
Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pillitteri
|
Pratt
| Proud
| Provenzano
| Redman
|
Reed
| Richardson
| Robillard
| Rock
|
Saada
| Sekora
| Serré
| Speller
|
Steckle
| Stewart
(Brant)
| Stewart
(Northumberland)
| St - Julien
|
Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
| Torsney
|
Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
| Wappel
|
Whelan
| Wilfert
| Wood – 131
|
NAYS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Anders
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
|
Bailey
| Bergeron
| Bigras
| Blaikie
|
Borotsik
| Brien
| Brison
| Cadman
|
Casey
| Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Crête
| Cummins
|
Davies
| de Savoye
| Desjarlais
| Doyle
|
Dubé
(Madawaska – Restigouche)
| Duceppe
| Earle
| Epp
|
Forseth
| Gauthier
| Gilmour
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
|
Goldring
| Gouk
| Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
|
Guimond
| Hanger
| Hardy
| Harris
|
Harvey
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Jones
|
Konrad
| Laliberte
| Lalonde
| Lefebvre
|
Loubier
| Lowther
| Lunn
| Marceau
|
Marchand
| McDonough
| Ménard
| Meredith
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
| Muise
| Picard
(Drummond)
|
Price
| Proctor
| Reynolds
| Riis
|
Ritz
| Robinson
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
|
Schmidt
| Scott
(Skeena)
| Solberg
| Stoffer
|
Strahl
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Turp
| Vautour
|
Venne
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
– 74
|
PAIRED
Members
Alarie
| Alcock
| Bellehumeur
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
|
Bulte
| Carroll
| Dalphond - Guiral
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
|
Dumas
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Laurin
| Longfield
|
Marleau
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Peterson
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
|
Plamondon
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
|
The Speaker: I declare the motion carried and well done
Marie-Andrée Lajoie on your first time around.
SECOND READING
The House resumed from February 8 consideration of the motion
that Bill C-65, an act to amend the Federal-Provincial Fiscal
Arrangements Act, be read the second time and referred to a
committee.
The Deputy Speaker: When this bill was last under
consideration in the House, the hon. member for Mississauga South
had the floor. He has six minutes remaining for his remarks.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in
my previous comments I outlined a number of points with regard to
the overall equalization program. I thought it might be helpful
to the House simply to review some of those basic facts.
First of all, the equalization program is one of the
cornerstones of our country and has played a major role in
defining the Canadian federation.
Equalization ensures that all provinces have the resources they
need to provide reasonably comparable services to Canadians no
matter where they live without having to resort to higher levels
of taxation in other provinces. That point particularly should be
noted for Canadians with regard to the mobility rights that
Canadians all enjoy as citizens of this country.
1250
Equalization is also an unconditional federal payment and the
provinces can use it as they wish.
There are seven provinces that receive equalization payments,
Newfoundland, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick,
Quebec, Manitoba and Saskatchewan. The proposed legislation
before the House would renew the equalization program for a five
year period, from April 1, 1999 to March 31, 2004, and the basic
structure of the equalization program would remain the same
I repeat, the purpose of this bill is to renew the equalization
program, and the fundamental program as we know it today would
remain the same.
The bill does include some changes to the program to ensure that
it continues to measure the ability of provinces to raise
revenues as accurately as possible. These improvements will
increase the cost of the equalization program by an estimated
$242 million. The changes will be phased in over the course of a
five year renewal period.
The bill also includes changes to the ceiling and floor
provisions of the equalization program which protect against
unusually large fluctuations in equalization transfers. The
proposed amendments are the results of two years of extensive
consultations and review of the equalization program by the
federal and provincial governments.
I think members will remember from the debate that was held in
the House when we last dealt with this bill that there was much
concern about the disincentive for provinces that receive
equalization to pursue economic growth and job creation because
it would reduce the equalization payments they were otherwise
entitled to. I think many hon. members would like to speak to
the issue with regard to disincentive of equalization payments.
At the time of the 1998 budget it was projected that the
equalization in 1998-99 would amount to $8.5 billion. The last
official estimates released in October show an increase to $8.8
billion. The new estimates of equalization will be provided in
the 1999 budget tomorrow evening.
The bill would also renew the provincial personal income tax
revenue guarantee program for the same five year period. This
program protects those provinces participating in the tax
collection agreements from any major revenue reductions that may
be caused during the course of a year by changed in federal tax
policy.
By way of summary, these are some of the principal elements in
Bill C-65. In my view one of the important elements raised in
debate was whether there was a disincentive to provinces that
received equalization. I thought there was also some interesting
commentary with regard to the distribution of equalization to
certain provinces.
In that debate with regard to the significant amount of moneys
transferred to Quebec, there was an awful lot of suspicion raised
that somehow this was improper or incorrect. When I gave my
initial speech on this subject, I laid out substantive reasons to
point out to the opposition that it is not enough simply to
identify the numbers of differences between how much one
provinces gets compared to another. The important question is to
ask why do those numbers differ and is it fair and equitable.
After two years of consultation between the provinces, the
territories and the federal government those people have
determined that indeed the equalization program as it exists and
as it is proposed to be extended is fair and equitable.
Mr. Norman Doyle (St. John's East, PC): Mr. Speaker, I am
very pleased today to have the opportunity to say a couple of
words on this bill. It is a bill that is evidently very
important to at least seven provinces, the seven provinces that
receive equalization payments.
I was taken aback a moment ago by the member for Mississauga
South who mentioned that this bill is a major cornerstone of
Confederation.
1255
He can make that statement but five minutes ago his government
invoked one of the most hideous procedures available to
government today, closure, on one of the major cornerstones of
Confederation. The hon. member's words are not consistent with
what the government did a moment ago.
This is a very important bill to the provinces that receive
equalization payments. It is very important to Atlantic
Canadians. It is very important to Newfoundland. It is very
important to Nova Scotia. It is very important to New Brunswick.
It is very important not only to Atlantic Canadians but to
western Canadians. It is very important to Manitoba. It is very
important to Saskatchewan. It is very important to Quebec. It
is very important to Prince Edward Island. But today the
government, in spite of the importance we attach to Bill C-65,
has decided to cut off debate. It has decided to invoke closure.
It has decided to stifle, to muzzle the opposition from making
the comments it wants to make on this bill.
This bill is very important to all members of the PC caucus. It
is very important to Manitoba, to Saskatchewan, to Newfoundland,
to Nova Scotia and to Quebec. But these provinces are highly
dependent on equalization payments to better their economic
situation. It is even more important to have this bill fully
debated by all members to make the federal government fully aware
of the impact that equalization payments have on at least seven
provinces in Canada. Obviously we will not have that opportunity
to make the federal government aware of the impact these payments
have on Atlantic Canadians in particular because it has brought
in closure today.
I was told that before this bill came to the House of Commons
the province of Newfoundland requested some significant changes
to the way the formula treats offshore resources, offshore oil
and gas. The government has rejected the request of the province
of Newfoundland and Labrador. Instead it is only going to make
some very minor housekeeping changes to this bill, completely
ignoring the request of Premier Tobin and the province of
Newfoundland that Canada's poorest province should not be
penalized because of the current equalization formula before it
is given a chance to catch up and become equal to the rest of
Canadians.
There cannot be any chance for catch-up for Atlantic Canadians
or for that matter western Canadians in provinces like Manitoba
and Saskatchewan who receive equalization payments. There cannot
be any opportunity given to these provinces to catch up. There
cannot be a chance of equality of provinces unless there is some
recognition given to the fact that the very pool of money that
keeps a particular province from falling into economic despair
and economic disaster is the same pool of money that will keep
that province permanently poor.
That is the unfairness and injustice associated with the way
this formula is written. There will never be an opportunity for
the provinces that receive these equalization payments to be
brought up the same quality of life and the same standard of
living that other Canadians enjoy.
I am not saying we should put in place a new formula for ever
and a day.
What I am saying is that there should be an arrangement worked
out for the have not provinces which will see resource revenues
clawed back on a more gradual basis.
1300
For example, a Voisey's Bay development in Newfoundland could
have its resource revenues clawed back not dollar for dollar but
on a 50% basis. The Sable Island gas find could be clawed back
on a 50% basis. In that way there is an opportunity to bring
some fairness to the equalization formula and to bring the
unemployment rate and the quality of life for the receiving
provinces to some kind of acceptable standard.
I do not expect the government will make any changes in the
equalization formula today. Obviously it will not. It has
invoked closure on one of the most important bills ever to come
before parliament in quite some time. I am not expecting the
government to make any kind of substantive changes.
A few months ago I had a private member's bill on Newfoundland's
unemployment problem selected and debated before the House. In
my final remarks I made the point that if we had a fairer
equalization formula applied to Newfoundland as it relates to our
resource based revenues, not only would the province of
Newfoundland be a lot better off but the federal government would
be a lot better off as well. Eventually the province would
become less dependent upon federal resources to keep it going.
In the long run there is every reason for the federal government
to want these provinces that receive equalization payments to be
brought up to an acceptable standard so that the federal
government will not have to inject funds into the poorer
receiving provinces.
As we are all very much aware the Canadian equalization program
redistributes throughout the nation. Last year the province of
Newfoundland received roughly $996 million in equalization
payments. That is quite a great deal of money. In this fiscal
year we are expected to receive roughly $925 million. There will
be a reduction.
That number can be greatly affected by the overall wealth of the
nation, the overall wealth of the economy. If the economy is good
in any one particular year, the provinces receiving equalization
payments will obviously see their payments go up. If the economy
of the nation declines in any given year the provinces will
expect to receive less.
One thing that determines how much equalization a province will
get is the population of the receiving province. The population
of Newfoundland has gone down significantly over the last number
of years. I believe over the last six or seven years in
particular the province's population has gone down by 7,000 or
10,000 people per year. That is quite a decrease in population
for a small province like Newfoundland.
If Ontario, for instance, were to have a decline of 10,000
people per year it would not matter a great deal. When a province
like Newfoundland with a population of half a million people
loses 10,000 people per year it is very serious. Because of that
our equalization payments go down as well.
Over the last six or seven years Newfoundland has lost in the
neighbourhood of 70,000 people. As a result its equalization
payments have gone down dramatically.
1305
While the out-migration factor is very important to a province
like Newfoundland, the main variable I would be concerned about
is the fact that with any new influx of resource revenues,
revenues are deducted dollar for dollar over time from the
equalization payments.
To make it a bit clearer, if a province has taken in a billion
dollars in additional resource revenues in the 1997-98 fiscal
year, it would have only $4 million in equalization payments
because $996 million of the revenues would have gone to replace
equalization payments over time. It may not happen in any one
given year but over time the entire amount would be clawed back
by the federal government.
There are not many incentives for a province to want to develop
major resource developments. There is not much of an opportunity
for a province that receives equalization payments to boost its
standard of living comparable to a province that does not receive
equalization.
I served as a member of the Newfoundland House of Assembly for
about a 14 year period.
Mr. John O'Reilly: Double dipping.
Mr. Norman Doyle: Pardon me? Did the hon. member say
double dipping? No, I am not one of the individuals who double
dip. I can say to the member that I am not one of them.
I served for about 14 years as a member of the Newfoundland
House of Assembly. In that period of time I served during the
administration of the PCs and of the Liberals. I remember both
those governments making the case year after year after year to
the federal government for a change in the way the equalization
formula was written so that the province could have an
opportunity to catch up to other provinces in Canada. I believe
that was brought into focus by the massive Hibernia oil
development on the Grand Banks of Newfoundland. When the
particular resource was discovered back in 1979 Newfoundland held
a promise of jobs and revenues for its beleaguered provincial
economy.
In the early eighties oil prices were high and the prospect of
annual oil revenues were not out of the realm of reaching
billions of dollars. Given that fact, overcoming the
equalization hump was at least a possibility for the province of
Newfoundland and Labrador. It would lose probably the first
billion but we would keep subsequent billions and millions of
dollars as the case may be.
It proved impossible for the government of the day to negotiate
an offshore oil deal with the Trudeau administration when oil
prices were very high. An agreement had to be held up until the
PC government came in power under Brian Mulroney and there was a
decent offshore contract negotiated with his government. By that
time oil prices had fallen dramatically. There was not any
possibility of a multibillion dollar oil revenue, so we could see
all oil revenues simply going to replace equalization payments.
At about that time the government of the day negotiated with the
federal government a change in equalization entitlements as they
applied to the Hibernia resource development.
Instead of having the dollar for dollar clawback it was
negotiated that the federal government would only take 70 cents.
Some recognition was given to the fact that oil prices were low
at the time and Newfoundland would not be receiving all that much
revenue from resource development in that project. That could be
easily done again for other developments in Atlantic Canada like
Sable Island, Voisey's Bay and other developments in general.
1310
We are quite pleased to have an equalization program that keeps
us from economic disaster, but we are not at all pleased it is
the formula that keeps the receiving province from getting ahead.
How can we ever catch up if every new dollar we earn is
subtracted from our equalization payments? We have to catch up.
For as long as I have been in public life in Newfoundland the
unemployment rate has been double the national rate. During that
same time the federal government has cut transfers to the
provinces by 35%. Not only do we have to use our equalization
payments to help the province get ahead. We also have to use
them to make up for the fact that the federal government has cut
transfers to the provinces by 35%.
When that was done, in Newfoundland's case thousands of
provincial public servants were laid off. The public services
are now under a great deal of strain especially in rural
Newfoundland. The federal government has cut the federal public
service in the province by a full 30% as compared with 15%
nationally. It is hard to believe but the province with double
the national unemployment rate was saddled with double the rate
of federal job cuts.
Because the public service in general plays a larger than usual
role in Newfoundland's economy, the cumulative effect of these
cuts has been very devastating upon the province and probably
more devastating on Newfoundland than it has been on other
provinces in Canada.
We need a new deal. Atlantic Canada generally needs a new deal
in Confederation. If we are to move out of park and into high
gear, the federal government needs to recognize we are a have not
province which needs a greater say over the resource revenues
that come into our province. We need revenues that would more
than merely replace equalization. We need revenues to augment
our economic situation, to catch up and to make progress. That
will never happen unless the federal government is willing to
recognize the plight of Atlantic Canadians generally.
To sum up, we need economic development and jobs. We need to
maximize the impact of any resource development on our economy
and the provincial treasury. The federal government has not
helped today by invoking closure on the bill.
1315
Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, near as I can gather from the member's remarks, he is
saying the equalization payments which are designed to bring all
the provinces up to the same sort of minimum national standards
and opportunities should continue to be paid even when a province
on its own back can raise the money through its own resources.
In other words, what he is saying is that if a worker is on
employment insurance, for example, he should be entitled to get a
job as well with which he doubles his income, one from the
government and one from the job. Or that a person on welfare
should be able to get the social assistance and also get the
money from a job or any other resources. What he is saying if I
gather correctly is that rather than the people of Newfoundland
wanting to earn their own way from their own resources, they
should continue to tap the governments, the federal resources,
federal social assistance.
I submit this is indeed the type of agenda, the type of pattern
that we saw in the Conservatives of the past. I do not believe
it speaks actually to the other parties in Newfoundland, the
Liberals perhaps or the NDP. I think it is a Conservative
philosophy where not only do we get as much money as we can from
our own resources but we get as much money as we can from the
central government.
I submit that is not what produces independence, that is not
what produces dignity among people. I suggest the Conservatives
should understand that people now have to get off the gravy train
unless they need help. If they need help, yes.
The member suggested that closure has somehow been something
that is interfering with the ability of Newfoundlanders and other
people in the have-not provinces getting these equalization
payments. Rhetoric is not what these people need right now.
What they need is this legislation to go through as fast as
possible.
Mr. Norman Doyle: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member
for his rhetoric. That is all it was, rhetoric. As I suspected,
he was not listening to a thing I had to say on this very
important bill. He was talking to his colleague all the while I
was speaking and he never gave me a moment of thought nor
listened to a word I said.
I am not saying we should put in place a new equalization
formula for ever and a day. What I am saying is that we need to
work out some kind of an arrangement for have-not provinces that
will see the resource revenues they generate clawed back on a
more gradual basis than dollar for dollar.
As I said a moment ago, Newfoundland receives about $1 billion
in equalization payments. If the Hibernia development for
instance were to bring in $900 million in the run of a year, we
would be only $100 million better off. Is this not what we need,
an opportunity to catch up to the other provinces in Canada? Put
in place a formula that will see a more gradual claw back, a 15%
claw back for Voisey's Bay, a 50% claw back for Sable Island gas
development that will see the province given an opportunity to
become equal with the other provinces. It will see that province
given an opportunity to improve its quality of life and to raise
its employment opportunities and then let that province make the
contribution that it should be making to the country. That is all
we ask, a new arrangement that would see claw backs made on a
more gradual basis.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the member has raised an issue which has been raised by the
Premier of Newfoundland with regard to resource revenues.
I want to ask the member whether he has actually considered
whether the impact of the resources revenue and the additional
taxation from those additional resource revenues is only a dollar
for dollar reduction of the equalization payment.
1320
I wonder if he has considered the new economic development and
that those additional jobs created from that have very
substantial benefits over and above simply the direct taxation
revenues, the fact that there are substantial benefits for
employing people and getting them off welfare, off social
assistance and off other program grants like the TAGS program or
the ACOA program.
There seems to be much more at stake here than simply dollar for
dollar on equalization. The point is that Newfoundland is poised
to take a more substantive role in the economy of Canada.
Mr. Norman Doyle: Mr. Speaker, we are well aware of the
fact that we are poised to take a more substantive role in the
economy of our country. Again I have to remind the hon. member
that what we are talking about here is a province moving ahead
and a province being given the opportunity to become equal to
other provinces in Canada. Simply put, what we need is economic
development and jobs. We need to maximize the impact of our
resources and resource development. We cannot do that with the
current equalization formula the federal government has in place.
We have lost so much wealth in our economy due to federal
government cuts in programs and the fact that the federal
government has cut our health care system to such a great extent
over the last five year period, a 35% cut in transfers to the
provinces. We have use our equalization payments to make up for
the cuts the federal government has inflicted on us in the past.
What I have been talking about here is an opportunity for not
only Newfoundlanders but for Atlantic Canadians generally and
provinces that receive equalization payments to have some sort of
renegotiation of that formula to reflect the fact that they are
have not provinces and that they should be given the opportunity
to become equal, to catch up and to raise the standard of living
in their province and increase the employment rate as well.
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
wonder if the hon. member would clarify briefly why Newfoundland
should have a separate side agreement in terms of equalization
and revenues that would handle the natural resource revenues
differently in Newfoundland than it would say for the province of
Alberta. Why should Newfoundland, for example, have only 70% of
its revenues counted for equalization purposes when in Alberta it
is 100%?
Could he explain exactly how that would work and whether he
would be in support of having the same kind of treatment across
Canada and have it done through equalization rather than to have
some separate side agreements that really change the whole
equalization formula?
Mr. Norman Doyle: Mr. Speaker, I am not talking about
Newfoundland alone here. I am not talking about a separate side
agreement for Newfoundland. I am talking about a separate
agreement that would apply to seven provinces, not including
Alberta, Ontario and B.C. Alberta, Ontario and B.C., by virtue
of their geographic locations, in some respects have been able to
move ahead because of their prosperous economies. We thank these
provinces for being able to share their wealth with the rest of
Canada.
What we simply want to do is make our contribution to the rest
of Canada as well. I believe in order to do that we need the
federal government to look closely at this bill, to think about
the have not provinces and to come up with some kind of formula
that will enable less clawback on their resources until they
reach a point comparable to Ontario, Alberta and British
Columbia.
Mr. John McKay (Scarborough East, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
thank you for this opportunity to rise on this debate and to
discuss the equalization transfers.
Prior to the previous speaker, I was wondering who was the
biggest whiner in Confederation, Mr. Bouchard or Mr. Harris.
Having listened to the previous member I am inclined to think
that the Progressive Conservative Party is the biggest whiner in
Confederation. I cannot quite fathom how we should take $1
billion worth of transfer moneys given to the Government of
Newfoundland and then heaven forbid they should actually raise
their own funds, not call on the federal transfer and still
complain. That strikes me as a perverse effect of equalization
and one which I hope this bill in some measure addresses. We are
all moving I hope toward self-sufficiency.
1325
However, I do want to go back to the two people I consider to be
the biggest whiners in Confederation, Mr. Bouchard and Mr.
Harris. Each receives about $10 billion from the federal
treasury. Both complain bitterly about running the independent
little fiefdoms and both say they do not have enough money to
live on. It reminds me of certain people who will remain
unmentioned.
One hesitates to interject fact into the rhetoric that has been
going on on the opposite side of the House, but the federal
government raises about $150 billion to $160 billion a year. To
most ears that sounds like a lot of money. But the first call on
the money is by the provinces. The provinces suck up about $25
billion to $26 billion right out of the pot immediately. Then we
add on to that number a further $9 billion approximately that
goes into equalization. Before the federal government even
starts to enter into any debt repayment, any programs or anything
of that nature, 23% of its revenues are already transferred to
the provinces to frankly spend as they see fit.
If I may be permitted a speculation, I am assuming that a bit
more money in the next budget will be available for the provinces
to spend as they see fit. I dare say there will be no
correlation between whining and transfers of money.
These moneys are gone. They are virtually without strings. In
some provinces they account for upwards of 40% of their gross
revenues. In my province it is around 20%, in some provinces as
little as 15%.
Ontario has about 40% of the population. I has about 45% to 50%
of the gross domestic product. Ontario raises the revenue it
gives in the form of tax revenues to the federal government which
in turn redistributes it through the CHST and equalization. If
one were totally parochial about this matter one would complain.
But this is in fact the essence of being Canadian. This has been
true since Confederation and I dare say will continue to be true
for the foreseeable future.
This is called equalization which is in our country really a
form of redistribution of wealth. I will address the House's
attention to the actual money transferred. It totals something
in the order of $8.750 billion, of which quite clearly Quebec
receives the lion's share, $3.9 billion, just under $4 billion.
The next largest recipient is Nova Scotia and, as the previous
member alluded to, Newfoundland receives about $947 million, just
under $1 billion. That is a great deal of money.
The formula by which transfers are made have become quite
complex. I address the House's attention to the bill summary
which purports to phase in the tax changes over the period from
April 1, 1999 through to March 31, 2004. This is the reason for
bringing some closure to this debate.
These arrangements have to be made by the end of this fiscal year
so that transfers between provinces are calculated on a formula
which gives certainty to budgeting processes.
1330
There is also a provision that adjusts the definitions of
revenue source and revenue to be equalized. There has been some
discussions in the House about gambling and how to treat gambling
revenues as revenues being raised. Not all provinces are able to
raise those kinds of revenues. There is also a change to the
minimum and maximum provisions. Those are the three essential
points of the bill, namely a change to the minimum and maximum
payment provisions; a redefinition of revenue source and revenue
to be equalized; and the phasing in from April 1, 1999 through to
March 31, 2004.
In renewing the federal government commitments we are starting
to look more carefully at the revenue raising ability of each
province. Not all provinces are created equal. The bottom line
is that at the end of the day the provinces that receive
equalization will receive about $242 million additional over a
period of five years.
Fortunately for both sides of the equation the provinces can now
expect that their floor revenues will not be altered. Similarly,
the federal government can reasonably expect that the
equalization transfers will not go above $10 billion. This
brings some fiscal certainty to the entire process which
necessarily needs to be done so that all finance ministers in the
country can plan appropriately.
The hon. Leader of the Opposition heaped abuse and scorn on the
equalization process and said that it was essentially just so
much politics. I remind the hon. member that this House talks
about values. This talks about the values we are as Canadians.
If there is a significant value after universal medical health
insurance, it is equalization. Equalization is the transfer of
moneys among provinces so that all Canadians are treated
equitably. Arguably it is a hallmark of a civilized society.
I would like to quote the Minister of Finance on the very point
of equalization:
Equalization is a cornerstone of our country—a program that we
can all be proud of. It ensures that all provinces have the
resources they need to provide reasonably comparable services to
Canadians no matter where they live. This legislation will
ensure that the equalization program remain up to date and
continues to provide dependable federal support to the qualifying
provinces.
That is a hallmark of our Canadian civilization. We as Canadians
redistribute wealth so that all Canadians have a reasonable
access to government services throughout the country. No person
in Canada should be limited by his or her ability to access basic
services simply because of geography. Geography should not be in
question. It is a statement of a civilization and indeed of a
civilized society.
In Quebec the total government transfers are $1,414 per person.
In Ontario similar transfers are $824 per person. The average
for all of the provinces is $1,150 per person. What disturbs me
is in that process we do not seem to have a similar recognition
of the role of the federal government in the lives of its
citizenry. We transfer to Quebec something in the order of $932
per person on CHST and $536 per person on equalization for a
total of $1,414 per person. Ontario receives only $824 per person
on the CHST.
Newfoundland, which is the province of origin of the previous
speaker, receives a total of $2,495 per person, almost $2,500 as
a point of equalization.
1335
I do not know where the cutoff number is. Maybe we should
ratchet it up to $3,000, maybe even to $4,000. Or why not just
simply collect all the money, put it in one pot and divide by $30
million. There are points at which this is a rough form of
justice but I would submit that it is a form on which all
Canadians can count and all Canadians can expect that these
numbers will be there for them over the course of time.
The average CHST per person is $853. The average of all the
transfers is $1,150. Quebec does quite a bit better than the
average on both numbers, namely the CHST number and the
equalization number.
If Messrs. Harris and Bouchard had their way, as they pocketed
their cheques—which I would submit are rather substantial
cheques—they would simply say thank you very much—and I am not
sure we would get that—apply for a seat at the UN and say it is
all over, we are now 10 independent little countries.
I respectfully submit there is no sense of nationhood or nation
building out of these moneys. We have 10 little emperors. Each
has his hands on ridiculous amounts of money. They erect trade
barriers which interfere with each Canadian's ability to move
from province to province and to practise his or her trade. Then
they wonder why Canadian productivity lags. I would submit that
one of the most significant reasons Canadian productivity lags is
the interprovincial trade barriers.
My son is planning on attending university next year. If my son
applies to go to Queen's University, which is a university both
you and I share, Mr. Speaker, he will pay a tuition rate which is
a rate substantially less than he would pay to go to McGill. At
McGill he would pay something in terms of double or triple the
amount of tuition that he would otherwise pay at Queen's.
Comparable universities; comparable education; comparable job
prospects at the end of a degree. Yet the real cost for him,
merely because he lives in Toronto, will be in excess of two to
three times, residency costs aside. This is all because he
happens to live in Ontario as opposed to Quebec.
This is unacceptable. This is an interprovincial trade barrier
which needs to be addressed and has to be addressed. These are
the kinds of things that kill our productivity and send us toward
this model of 10 little fiefdoms with one tax collecting
authority.
If I had any impact on the finance ministers of Canada, and that
is somewhat dubious, I might ask some rather fundamental
questions. How do these equalization transfers help build
Canada? How is Canada better off at the end of the day once these
transfers are done? How will Canadians know that their money is
well spent? Strange question. How about a little
accountability? Where is the transparency? Why are kids who go
to university in one province having to pay two or three times
more than other people in the same dorm? Is this on the social
union talks agenda and if so, where is it going? Are we asking
these rather fundamental questions as to what we are as a nation
and how we back that up with money?
At one level this bill is about money pure and simple: $8.5
billion, write the cheques. End of story. At another level,
this is about something far more profound. It is about our
values and who we are as Canadians.
I like the value of equalization. It does however disturb me
greatly that once we send the money off to the provincial
treasuries, it seems to end up in this little fiefdom concept.
The next stage presumably is the issuance of a passport.
1340
The opposition said that we would put part of the money to the
vision. I argue with great respect to the Leader of the
Opposition that he and I have a very different vision of what
this country is all about. I am not prepared to simply let the
have not provinces slide off the table. I do not think that is
what he is talking about. On the other hand I am not prepared to
let the have not provinces continue on forever and a day not
trying to husband their own resources so that they can be kept
outside of this equalization formula. As I said, God forbid that
the money should actually return to the treasury of the federal
government.
I would urge members to support this bill and to demonstrate
that this is a matter of values. I would urge members to
articulate to themselves what this actually means in terms of
equity among provinces. It is a hallmark of our Canadian
civilization that we treat each other with civility and dignity.
In my view this is a bill that goes a long way toward that.
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I found
what we just heard to be a most enlightening discourse. It was
absolutely amazing. What this man has been able to put together
as a Liberal backbencher absolutely astounds me. He is asking
the ministers of finance to be transparent and accountable. He
is asking the provinces to be accountable. He is asking for
things to happen. He is asking the finance minister to explain
to Canadians how the equalization program actually develops the
economy of Canada.
This gentleman represents a riding on behalf of the Liberal
Party. Here he is talking as a Liberal but as if he had read and
understood very clearly and completely the position of the Reform
Party presented by the Leader of the Opposition a couple of days
ago. I congratulate him for listening so well. I congratulate
him for his ability to understand and to expound so clearly and
so carefully what it is he heard here last week. It is
tremendous.
He did qualify it a little and said “Well I do not really agree
with that, I do take a different view of Canada than the Leader
of the Opposition does”. But what he said before that was a
total contradiction. I think it is absolutely fantastic. I
commend the gentleman for saying that we need to examine our
values, that we need to consider accountability and that we need
to make this formula transparent.
I suggest that he tell this House exactly how he would make this
formula simpler and a little more transparent, and how he would
introduce accountability into it.
Mr. John McKay: Mr. Speaker, I am touched to the core by
the hon. member's acute observations on the parsement of the
speech. I asked some fairly simple and fundamental questions
which for the Reform Party is somewhat more of a challenge than
it can usually meet.
The issue of transparency is something of extreme urgency in my
province. The argument that has been going on in our caucus is
that all we do is backfill stupid ideas on the part of the
premier of the province.
I am absolutely confident the hon. member is aware of many of
the dumb ideas that come out of the premier's office with respect
to tax cuts as a priority in excess of all other tax cuts. We
have tax cuts that impede our ability to deliver health care. We
have tax cuts that impede our ability to deliver quality
education. I could not drive to the airport this morning without
dodging holes on the 401 because the road repair is so pathetic.
We are asking for transparency and accountability. When we
deliver the money, which is all we are doing here with our
transfer of $35 billion, there should be something coming back to
the federal government that says how the money was spent. I do
not see what the issue is. That has always been a Liberal value.
1345
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, like
my colleague, I also enjoyed the speech.
I particularly enjoyed the part where he was pointing out that
the equalization program, the topic for today, is only one aspect
of the way this wonderful country runs. I could not help but
pick up his point about Queen's University and McGill. I can
well understand that there are students in Ontario who might want
to go to Queen's. The member mentioned that the cost of tuition
was higher at McGill and he was concerned about that. Unless I
am very much mistaken that is not the case.
The situation is that the province of Quebec, like the province
of British Columbia, has kept its tuition fees down. I do not
compliment either of those two governments very often but I
compliment them both for doing that. It is a matter of decision
of how we encourage young people to go to college or university.
Tuition fees are only one device for doing that but I compliment
them on that aspect of it.
In the case of Quebec and McGill or Laval, my understanding is
that a student comes from out of the province and the university
charges them the average of the fees elsewhere in the country.
Because the fees in Ontario have been raised to an inordinately
high level, the tuition fees in Ontario are higher than the
national average. Unless I am mistaken, and I would like the
member to comment on this, as a result of that his son's fees at
Queen's will be higher than the fees at McGill even with the
additional levies the province of Quebec requires.
I believe in mobility of students across the country. We have
to ask should a province like Quebec suffer because it has
decided to keep the cost of education low for its own students. I
believe that is a decision for the province of Quebec. I suggest
to the member that even though McGill is much superior to
Queen's, the fees there are somewhat lower than the fees at
Queen's.
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. parliamentary secretary is
treading on dangerous ground here.
Mr. John McKay: Mr. Speaker, I was with the hon.
parliamentary secretary until he got to his last point and then
one does not necessarily need to comment on the patently obvious.
I appreciate the hon. member's intervention which I think is
actually quite enlightening and very helpful. The point in the
illustration I was trying to draw was on the issue of mobility.
In truth there should really be no impediment on the part of any
student anywhere in the country to go to the university of his or
her choice.
While I would not necessarily want to pursue the Queen's-McGill
dialogue, except over a football game and a beer, as I write the
cheque for my son in the fall I am concerned that if he chooses
to go to an out of province school I will be writing a far
heftier cheque.
I would also adopt the hon. member's position that the provinces
are to be congratulated in keeping their educational costs
somewhat in line. This government has done a great deal by the
$2.5 billion it put up for millennial scholarship money. That is
one of the reasons these kinds of numbers can be kept in line. I
hearken back to the sitting of the finance committee. President
Pritchard came before our committee and congratulated the federal
government on its $2.5 billion initiative.
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
hon. member in his dissertation on equalization touched on
tuition and expressed his concerns about the effect that
equalization may have on tuition fees for students.
1350
I ask the hon. member if he would have as much concern for the
recent change in government policy which prevents students who
are hard pressed and who are experiencing extreme financial
difficulty from declaring bankruptcy until after 10 years has
expired. This really works to discriminate against youth.
When we talk about encouraging students to go to university
certainly this policy has an adverse effect further down the
road. Does the member have any concern about that policy?
Mr. John McKay: Mr. Speaker, I do not think I was linking
tuition and equalization directly. My point was on the issue of
mobility, that this was a statement of values, that students
should not be impeded in terms of their ability to go from
province to province for the course outline they wish as they
pursue master and doctoral programs independent of considerations
as to whether one is on one side of a border or the other.
As to the financial issues, again, we have put up $2.5 billion
for scholarship money. That is fresh money available to
students. The only issue I have with respect to the bankruptcy
provision has to do with the abuse that was going on with respect
to the never-never payment plan. We were having students
graduate and in three, four or five years they had achieved a
certain financial security and then they were simply walking away
from the liability.
Mr. Gerry Ritz (Battlefords—Lloydminster, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise today to discuss the
equalization bill. I join my colleagues on this side of the
House in condemning the irresponsible panic the government uses
to introduce legislation in this place. To compound that, about
an hour ago we had the 46th time that time allocation or closure
has been moved since the Liberals took power in 1993.
There is a list of comments that could be made by the members
from that side in the way they handled time allocation when it
was used against them in a couple of government situations before
that. I will not get into that today.
This is not the first time this cabinet has waited until the
last minute to bring in time sensitive financial bills with no
consultation or material circulated so that all members of
parliament and their constituents can get a good, hard look at
what is being proposed.
In the case of Bill C-65 we have the even greater absurdity of
having this dumped in our laps, so the government knew it would
have to take a look at the equalization legislation formula every
five years. We knew this was coming. It is nothing new.
The auditor general several times has reminded the government
through his annual recommendations to reform the structure of
equalization, but like so many other worthwhile things that he
has had to say lately, it has been totally ignored.
The opposition and by extension all Canadians outside government
circles were given three sitting days notice to consider $35
billion in spending that will extend well into the mandate of the
next government. As the old saw goes, haste makes waste, and
this government has made haste an art form.
Bill C-65 introduces some new variables into an equation that is
already so complex that even its authors have trouble
understanding it. How else can we explain the fact that three
years out of five the formula for figuring out the amounts to be
doled out has to resort to exceptions and special definitions.
The formula, in other words, cannot even describe what the
government has in mind for all this money it hands out. I equate
this equalization system with the so-called simplicity of the new
gun registry which one member opposite compared to the simplicity
of the tax code. It never seems to occur to this government that
there is something wrong with a tax code that runs to 1,600 pages
and still requires thousands of legal opinions every year.
It does not seem to bother this government that it has spent
$200 million on a gun registry with more waste on the way as it
struggles to make it work. No one knows exactly what is supposed
to be accomplished by it.
Equalization as practised by this government suffers from the
same disease. It is complex, unaccountable, ineffective and
unworkable. On top of built-in special terms and evasions this
government has had to write up special deals with two so-called
have not provinces so that, we presume, they can be even more
equal than the other have nots.
It has occurred to me that if Nova Scotia and Newfoundland get
special discounts on their oil revenues maybe my home province of
Saskatchewan can make a deal on casino revenues which are now to
be considered part of the province's fiscal status.
In future will we see three levels of consideration for lottery
revenues like we are looking at for oil in those other two
provinces? Will there be special calculations for lottery
tickets versus roulette wheel contributions?
1355
Saskatchewan plans to take a major hit on gaming revenues as,
right or wrong, it has built up quite a nest egg over the last
couple of years from that source. We cannot be sure that
gambling even represents net revenue in the broadest sense. When
we take out the social ramifications and the costs to families
and so on, is there anything there that we really want to take a
look at taxing?
When the federal government counts the gross amount donated to
one arm bandits, lottery retailers, will it subtract the social
cost of gambling addictions and the resulting family break-ups?
Will it take into account the fact that gambling money may simply
be money taken from some other spending? Will it take into
account, as the member for Surrey Central mentioned on Monday,
the example of Windsor, Ontario? There is a great glittering
casino there surrounded by boarded-up restaurants and shops, and
Windsor is at least on the boarder with Detroit, a large
population base to draw from. One could argue that we are
fleecing Americans for their loose change, but that is not a
likely outlet for rural Saskatchewan.
I am not trying to argue that provinces should be able to
collect billions from their own jurisdiction and pick up handouts
from Ontario, Alberta and B.C. as well. Quite the contrary. The
fact that ten provinces and soon to be three territories exist as
autonomous jurisdictions means that all these governments have
different ways to fulfil the ambitions and desires of their local
populations.
The equalization plan this government is still tinkering with,
in fact making even more complex, does not even want to recognize
this. The equalization wants to arbitrarily level the playing
field by chopping down all the trees and filling in the ditches.
It forgets there are reasons why some people need those forests.
The Speaker: My colleague, I see that you are just
getting into the body of your speech. I was wondering if we
could intervene now. You still have about 15 minutes left. I
would rather stop you here than have you get half way in. We
will now proceed to Statements by Members.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[Translation]
NATIONAL FLAG DAY
Mr. Bryon Wilfert (Oak Ridges, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, today we are
celebrating the anniversary of Canada's national flag.
[English]
Our flag was raised for the first time in 1965 and for the past
34 years has been a most prominent symbol of our identity and our
sense of belonging to Canada. Because it represents our
achievements and hopes, our aspirations and all things that we
hold dear in this country, because it illustrates 132 years of
collective history, the maple leaf inspires a profound feeling of
pride in each of us.
Because it symbolizes the values we hold dear, freedom,
tolerance, compassion and understanding, and because it recalls
Canada's role in defence of human rights and in peacekeeping and
rescue missions abroad, the Canadian flag has become the emblem
of democracy all around the world.
I hope that the anniversary of the Canadian flag will strengthen
our sense of belonging and our faith in this country as today and
every day we realize the tremendous blessings of belonging to
this vast and beautiful land.
* * *
AND THE WINNER IS—
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am
sure most of the House is aware of the upcoming academy awards. A
special list of political awards was leaked from Oscar
headquarters and here it is.
Best actor in a supporting role, General Baril in his riveting
role as a scapegoat in the recent blockbuster Last Flight From
Whistler.
For best actor award the nominees are: the Minister of Health
for his almost lifelike portrayal of a lawyer as a caring health
minister; the Minister of Finance in the Great Houdini and his
portrait of a man with his hands in his own pockets while still
magically picking the pockets of every Canadian; the Minister of
Justice for an exquisite performance in Annie Get Your Gun, a
moving story of a young woman, her cat and her fear of rural
Canadians; the Minister of Canadian Heritage for a delightful
remake of Citizen Kane, remember whoever controls the press
controls the people.
And the big winner tonight is the Prime Minister for his Forest
Gump-like portrayal of the little guy from Shawinigan. Life is
not like a box of chocolates, it is like a monopoly game, and
sometimes you are forced to sell your hotel.
* * *
[Translation]
HERITAGE DAY
Ms. Eleni Bakopanos (Ahuntsic, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, today is
Heritage Day.
Heritage is everything that links together people, places and
things, everything that ensures continuity between past, present
and future.
Let us take advantage of this special occasion to celebrate our
heritage, to discover and explore it, to learn more about it, to
steep ourselves in all the richness of our culture.
[English]
Our writers, artists, dancers and creators tell us and the world
about the wonders of being Canadian. We work diligently at
preserving our stories for the benefit of current and future
generations.
In our heritage institutions we have collections that represent
the broad and diverse history of the people who made and make up
a country.
1400
Our system of national parks, national historic sites and
monuments enables Canadians to enjoy firsthand our natural
environment and learn about the people and places which shape the
country.
Let us today thank our ancestors for the truly rich Canadian
heritage we all enjoy.
* * *
UNITED WAY
Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain (Guelph—Wellington, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I congratulate the United Way and community services of
Guelph—Wellington for their successful fund raising effort.
Through the generosity of local businesses and residents the
United Way raised close to $1.6 million.
The theme of this year's campaign was “the best way to help
someone you know”, and it truly was. The money raised will be
used to support United Way's 43 local agencies that provide
services for children, youth, families and seniors. It will also
fund projects aimed at resolving critical issues in addressing
the needs of the community.
I also thank the many people who donated their time and made
this success possible. Once again the Guelph—Wellington spirit
of volunteerism and generosity has made us proud.
* * *
NATIONAL PAROLE BOARD
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
addressing the distinctive needs and interests of aboriginal
offenders has long been of vital importance to the Nation Parole
Board.
Aboriginal people are widely overrepresented in federal
corrections. While they represent 3% of Canada's total
population, they account for nearly 15% of the incarcerated
population. That proportion is even higher in the prairie
provinces.
The disproportionate number of incarcerated aboriginal offenders
presents significant challenges that can only be met with
cross-cultural awareness, sensitivity, creativity and innovation.
One of the most recent innovations introduced by the National
Parole Board has been the use of native elders to assist at
parole hearings.
Another innovation, which is still very much in the experimental
stage, is the concept of releasing circles as an alternative to
more traditional methods of assessing community support.
The 100th anniversary of conditional release in Canada and the
40th anniversary of the National Parole Board provide the House
with a unique opportunity to recognize all their good work.
* * *
FAMILIES
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
today is family day in Alberta and I rise to pay tribute to the
over 700,000 families in my home province.
The family is important to Albertans as they recognize that it
is society's fundamental social unit, the centre for social,
educational, economic and spiritual life, and is the cradle of
life itself, providing a safe and secure environment in which to
nurture, teach and love our children.
Many Albertans are concerned about the state of the family due
in part to the heavily intrusive high tax policies of the
government. Families in Alberta are not alone in calling for
less burdensome government. Today's Compas poll indicates that
nine of ten Canadians want tax cuts and the federal debt to be
paid down.
Tax and spend has to end. It is time to allow Canadian families
to determine their priorities with their own money.
* * *
[Translation]
NATIONAL PAROLE BOARD
Mr. Jacques Saada (Brossard—La Prairie, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, today
is the 40th anniversary of the National Parole Board, and I
would like to pay tribute to this institution.
It has undergone many changes over the years. Today, board
members are selected by a process which determines the best
qualified candidates; they are given the best possible training.
Parole decisions are no longer made in secret. Board members'
performances are evaluated and they are guided by a code of
ethics.
The parole board we have today is one that makes decisions in a
professional manner. It enjoys an international reputation, and
is made up of close to 2,000 parole officers, assisted by
numerous NGOs such as the Salvation Army, and the John Howard,
Elizabeth Fry and St. Leonard's societies.
I would like to take advantage of this anniversary to tell the
members and employees of the board that they have every right to
be proud of their accomplishments in ensuring the safety and
protection of all Canadians.
* * *
1949 STRIKE OF ASBESTOS WORKERS
Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien (Frontenac—Mégantic, BQ): Mr. Speaker, 50
years ago, asbestos miners staged one of the most important
strikes in Quebec's history. This work stoppage marked a
turning point in the province's labour relations.
Although they did not know it, these striking workers laid the
groundwork for the sweeping social movement in Quebec known as
the Quiet Revolution.
We must pay tribute to all these workers, whose courage,
solidarity and determination played such a key role in the
development of Quebec's labour movement.
They fought for decent wages, of course, but more importantly,
they fought to improve the inhumane working conditions in the
asbestos mines of that era.
1405
To all these brave miners, from all the workers of Quebec, we
say “Thank you” from the bottom of our hearts.
* * *
SUICIDE PREVENTION WEEK
Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this
weekend marked the beginning of suicide prevention week, a week
to draw attention to an increasingly disturbing phenomenon in
our society.
In Quebec, 1,445 people committed suicide in 1995 and 1,478 did
so in 1996. There was also a very disturbing trend, with men
committing 79% of suicides between 1994 and 1997. Furthermore,
between 1990 and 1997, the suicide rate climbed by 13%.
Suicide represents a rejection of life but, above all, an
expression of extreme distress in the face of situations felt to
be insurmountable.
We must not turn a deaf ear to these cries for help, which often
come from loved ones in our immediate circle.
* * *
[English]
KOSOVO
Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, today the
two sides in the Kosovo crisis are sitting down face to face and
trying to reach some type of settlement. The clock is ticking
and the deadline of Saturday noon has been set.
It is time Canada addresses our involvement in a NATO led force.
We first have to ask what is the mandate. Then we have many
questions that must be answered including the following.
Do we support a referendum on separation in three years in
Kosovo? Do we have a long term plan? If we bomb what do we
bomb? If we send ground troops will they simply serve as police
with big sticks, or will they attempt to build a long term
solution? How long will the mission last? What will the mission
cost? Do we have the manpower and equipment? What will we do
with the refugees? How will we keep this issue from spreading to
surrounding countries?
The government will come in and say that we must hold a quick
take note debate. That is not good enough this time. We need
some answers first.
* * *
PUBLIC CONSULTATION
Hon. Andy Scott (Fredericton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, public
consultation continues to be one of my major commitments as the
member of parliament for Fredericton.
Since being elected to parliament in 1993 I have held more than
30 people's forums on topics from health care to gun control to
seniors issues. I plan to hold several forums this year with the
first being held Sunday, February 21, on the campus of the
University of New Brunswick. The topic of the forum, which is
being held in conjunction with Fredericton's two universities,
UNB and St. Thomas, is the role of our universities in the
community.
We will be engaging in discussion and debate with the community
on a wide range of issues, including the role of universities in
a changing society, how post-secondary education should be
funded, how to successfully market research and development
innovations on the global market and what we can do to address
student debt.
I invite everyone in the riding of Fredericton to attend this
important forum on Sunday and look forward to a lively and
informative discussion.
* * *
CAPE BRETON
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday Cape Bretoners gathered in Glace Bay. In the words of
one coal miner's wife “it was the day of love, an intense love
for our families, for each other and for the beautiful island of
Cape Breton”.
They came together to tell one another that despite hard times
they would stand united, to remind one another of the island's
greatest strength, its proud people, and to assure one another
that so long as their values remain strong there is a future for
their children. They came together with one voice to say we
believe in our communities and we believe in our ability to
rebuild our lives.
They deserve our respect in their battle for dignity. They
deserve fair compensation as the government withdraws from the
Cape Breton coal industry. The beautiful voice of Aselin
Debinson expressed it best when she belted out “We are a people
as proud as there's been”.
* * *
[Translation]
CHEVALIER DE LORIMIER
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, on February
15, 1839, Chevalier De Lorimier and five of his fellow Patriots
were executed for wanting democracy to be fully exercised in the
colony of Lower Canada.
Rising up in arms after the British governor put a price on
Papineau's head, the Patriots saw Colborne's army put several
villages to fire and the sword.
In Upper Canada, the insurrection and ensuing repression were
not as fierce as they were in Lower Canada, although 20 of
Mackenzie's comrades were also executed.
1410
In 1938, in Niagara, his grandson, Prime Minister Mackenzie
King, inaugurated an arch erected in memory of the martyrs of
the rebellion.
[English]
He said “This arch symbolizes the conquest of ideas and
ideals”.
[Translation]
In 1967, this arch was demolished for dubious reasons. On this
February 15, let us commemorate the glorious death of these
martyrs of democracy.
* * *
[English]
RAF FERRY COMMAND
Hon. Sheila Finestone (Mount Royal, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
regretfully Canadians who volunteered to serve with RAF Ferry
Command are forgotten World War II veterans although they have
limited eligibility in several veterans programs.
During the darkest period for the allies these civilian airmen
and women were recruited to fly urgently needed bombers, patrol
aircraft and supply transports through the unchartered North
Atlantic to Europe. By war's end accidents claimed over 500 air
crew and passengers, among them Sir Frederick Banting, the
discoverer of insulin.
Theirs was not only a military contribution but also to aviation
history. The Ferry Command created the basis for the network of
northern and international air routes that commercial travellers
now take for granted.
To quote advocate Louis Lang of the Ferry Command Association
speaking for the 28 remaining men:
All veterans were civilians when they enlisted. It was their
service to their country that earned them the title of veteran.
It is for these Canadian air and ground crews who served in the
theatre of war that I am seeking veterans status so they can
finish their twilight years with the honours they have rightly
earned.
* * *
HIGHWAYS
Mr. Norman Doyle (St. John's East, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
existence of the toll highway in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia is
an affront to all Canadians. To note that it is also part of the
so-called Trans-Canada Highway only doubles the insult.
Back in the days when it was the government's duty to provide
basic services, the construction of the Trans-Canada system was
seen as a federal government priority. These days we have the
federal government subsidizing the construction of a privately
owned toll road that receives all westbound traffic from
Newfoundland and the maritimes.
We are not in the United States. Up here it is the crown's job
to build and maintain roads. As long as we pay our taxes we
should be allowed to walk or ride on them free. This is a tax on
transportation for all Atlantic Canadians.
I call on the federal government to intervene in this matter and
have these tolls removed immediately so that the free flow of
traffic from east to west can continue unimpeded.
* * *
AGRICULTURE
Mr. John Harvard (Charleswood St. James—Assiniboia,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on December 10 the Minister for
Agriculture and Agri-Food announced the federal government's
commitment to assist financially strapped farmers. The $900
million federal contribution would grow to $1.5 billion with full
provincial participation in the program.
This short term relief package will help producers who have been
caught by disastrous farm commodity prices and who are in the
middle of an American-European subsidy war.
So far all provinces except Manitoba have joined the program. It
is time for the Manitoba provincial government to act. The foot
dragging must stop. Many Manitoba farmers are hurting. They
want a commitment from their provincial government.
Manitoba farmers know they can count on the federal government
to do its share. To be fully effective, however, the program
requires full provincial participation. The Manitoba government
should not take its farmers for granted.
I urge the province of Manitoba to join us today in helping our
farmers.
* * *
[Translation]
NATIONAL PAROLE BOARD
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the Bloc
Quebecois is pleased to acknowledge the 40th anniversary of the
National Parole Board. By the conscientious work of its staff,
the National Parole Board is showing the inmate population and
the general public that offenders can successfully be
rehabilitated.
Our society has come to realize that the supervised release of
offenders could produce more positive results than the
repressive, exemplary imprisonment system, which some in this
country like to promote.
In fact, for reasons of effectiveness and efficiency, the
Standing Committee on Justice recently undertook the five-year
review of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act. The Bloc
Quebecois will be working at modernizing and improving this
important rehabilitation tool.
We cannot let this jubilee of the National Parole Board go
unnoticed.
* * *
[English]
CANADIAN FLAG
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it was on
this day in 1965 that the Maple Leaf was adopted as the new
Canadian flag. I was a young high school teacher at the time and
I remember the debate that took place.
Though many people were adamantly opposed to the adoption of the
Maple Leaf as our flag, we have now come to accept it as the
symbol of Canadian identity. I think it is wonderful to have
this symbol recognized around the world.
1415
We are a highly respected country and being able to display the
flag in most parts of Canada and freely around the world is
important to us. I see more and more people flying the flag at
their homes and businesses, not because they got them at
taxpayers expense but because they are feeling more devoted and
loyal to this wonderful country.
I hope we will now build on what this flag represents: a
country known for its freedoms and opportunities. It is with
optimism and hope that I pledge to continue working for a new
Canada. I hope that we will soon be able to replace this
dinosaur Liberal government that keeps trying to take away our
individual and collective freedoms.
* * *
THE BUDGET
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
NDP): Mr. Speaker, anybody that has been listening to the
comments of the Minister of Finance lately to see the trail of
balloons he has been floating will be of the mind that the old
trickle down economics is returning, where the pump is primed in
terms of selected tax cuts and some special grants with the
benefits trickling down.
Canadians are fed up with being trickled on. They want this to
stop. They will be watching carefully tomorrow when the Minister
of Finance stands in his place. They do not want any more
trickling on Canadians. They want some real action for those in
need.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
TAXATION
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, a
new poll in the National Post has Canadians demanding
substantial tax relief. In fact nine out of ten Canadians want
to see the government deliver major tax cuts tomorrow.
What is the government doing instead? It is giving us the shell
game. Why is the finance minister giving a loonie with one hand
and taking a toonie with the other hand when it comes to taxes
and health care?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, ever since we
took office cutting taxes has been one of our major priorities.
Even when we were in deficit we had selective, targeted tax cuts
for students, for low income families, for the disabled, for
charities and for the voluntary sector.
In every budget since, we have been able to reduce income taxes.
In the last budget we cut taxes for 13 million out of 14 million
Canadian tax filers. We took 400,000 taxpayers right off the tax
rolls. This is the type of tax—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Medicine Hat.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
think that is the most ridiculous answer I have heard since I
have been in this place. Every year we see taxes go up, thanks
to the government.
In fact Canadians are paying $1,800 more in taxes this year and
receiving $1,150 less in health care than when the government
took power in 1993. Despite running surpluses in the last two
years, Canadians will get less money for health care and more in
taxes after the budget.
How does the finance minister defend this disastrous record on
health care and taxes?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I suggest very
kindly that the hon. member wait until tomorrow's budget to see
what our measures on health care are.
Let me say this. In terms of tax revenues having gone up, it is
very simple. If we have more people working we have more
revenue. Since we took office 1.5 million more Canadians are
working. This is a huge increase and in the last month alone
employment went up 87,400. This is the type of real results—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Medicine Hat.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
that is an absolute joke. The finance minister knows that we
have seen bracket creep wring $1 billion out of Canadians pockets
every year since they have been in power.
We know that this government implemented the largest tax hike in
Canadian history, taking $900 from each Canadian who is working,
lucky enough to have a job these days, over the next several
years. The tax record of the government is an absolute disaster.
The government talks a lot about productivity. I want to ask
the minister a question. How productive is it to take more money
out of the pockets of Canadians and give us the highest tax
burden in Canadian history? How productive is it to push
Canadians into the corridors of—
The Speaker: The hon. Secretary of State for Finance.
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if it is a
question of credibility, I think some very important things have
been raised by members of the Reform Party which go to the heart
of their very credibility.
They have called for $54 billion in new fiscal goodies over the
next three years. They are basing it on estimated growth rates
of 5.5% per year for three years. This is more than twice the
private sector consensus.
1420
This type of pie in the sky, irresponsible budget making is what
got us into so much trouble. We will not do it.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
Sherry Cooper of Nesbitt Burns has said and endorsed that fact
that our plan will work.
What has happened is that the government says that a $1 billion
or $2 billion so-called selective tax relief tomorrow will just
make up for the $38 billion that it has slashed over the last
five years.
The Minister of Finance thinks that a little $2 billion or $3
billion in so-called health care relief tomorrow will just erase
the $16 billion health care deficit that the government has
racked up.
No matter which way we want to slice the pie, it is exactly the
same.
I ask the finance minister why Canadians are going to pay more
and get less than they did in 1993.
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it seems to me
the Prime Minister worked out an accord with his counterparts in
the provinces and territories which deals with this issue. I
thought the hon. member would be applauding this type of
co-operative enterprise.
If we want to talk about irresponsibility, Reform's budget calls
for $9 billion in spending cuts but it will not tell us where, a
$9 billion black hole. Reformers ought to be ashamed of
themselves.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
will tell the House what I am ashamed of, a government across the
way that has slashed $1,150 per taxpayer in health care and has
the nerve to brag about it.
What is also a shame is for this government to increase extra
taxes $1,800 per taxpayer and then stand there and brag about it.
That is what is a shame.
What should have gone up, like health care funding, has gone
done. What should have gone done, like taxes, has gone up.
The government's 1993 promises amounted to a whole lot of tax
hikes and a whole lot of health cuts. How can he justify that?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I find it
passing strange to hear the Reform Party today talking about
health care when yesterday it was calling for a two tier system
for the delivery of health in Canada.
I certainly cannot use the word hypocrisy, but we will never
allow a two tier health system in this country.
The Speaker: I ask all hon. members to stay away from
that word.
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, on
Saturday in the Gaspé region, I attended a meeting on employment
and dignity. Those who attended, the employed, the unemployed,
the general public, were crying out for help. Their despair was
palpable.
Today the Minister of Human Resources Development met with
representatives of the coalition for employment insurance, who
presented their demands to him.
Will the Minister of Human Resources Development, whose policies
and cutbacks have forced the people of the Gaspé into abject
poverty, finally make the decision to use the $6 billion annual
surplus in the employment insurance fund to help the unemployed?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I remind the leader of the Bloc
Quebecois that last December we announced the permanent renewal
of the Canada Jobs Fund, precisely in order to invest in job
creation in regions where the unemployment rate is still very
high. This has already been done.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it
takes a lot of nerve to say that this has already been done.
Even the Bishop of Gaspé has spoken out against the minister
because his projects do nothing to help the fishers, the
forestry workers, the food service workers.
Is the minister ever going to realize that the men and women of
the Gaspé are not just cold statistics? He should stop playing
the technocrat and start listening to people. Is this minister
going to understand that one day?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the only thing of interest to
the Bloc Quebecois is to create unemployment and keep people
unemployed as long as possible.
We on this side of the House have invested $2.1 billion in
active measures to help the people of the Gaspé, and other
Canadians, to get into the workforce.
1425
We have the Youth Employment Strategy, with its $155 million to
help young people get into the labour force. Everywhere in the
country, including the Gaspé, youth unemployment is in free
fall. That is what human dignity is all about: employment.
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, the minister has developed the annoying habit
of responding to our demands regarding employment insurance by
talking only of active measures that are supposed to return
people to the labour market.
Does the minister not understand that for the bush pilot and
forestry worker who are unemployed because there is too much
snow in the woods or for the fisher unable to fish because of
the seasonal nature of his work, active measures are not enough,
and the employment insurance plan must provide these workers
with supplementary income during the off-season?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, that is the very reason we have
set up other programs. I do not think we should use employment
insurance for everything. It is an insurance plan.
These members keep wanting to return us to the 1960s and 1970s,
to an outdated way of managing things and they want us to
provide a temporary income supplement, and this is not our way
of doing things. We want a dynamic approach so we have a
dynamic labour market right across the country with specific
tools in the difficult regions.
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, what would the Minister of Human Resources
Development respond to the bishop for the Gaspé, who said on
Saturday, not in the 1970s, but at a demonstration against cuts
to employment insurance, that the minister was attacking the
dignity of an entire region?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, is it a return to the Duplessis
era and its approach that they want? I know these members see
things in a way that is deeply rooted in the past.
But what I say to you is that the dignity of people lies in
helping them return to the labour market, helping them find jobs
by creating opportunities through programs like the jobs fund in
regions where unemployment remains very high. It involves
remaining attuned to needs and not keeping people dependent, as
members of the Bloc Quebecois would have it.
* * *
[English]
HEALTH CARE
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, instead
of a vision for the future, the federal government has blindly
slashed health care. From its original share of 50%, Ottawa now
pays 11% with predictable results: uneven services, families
forced to take more dollars out of their own pockets, patients
being shipped to the States for treatment at far greater cost.
Is this the kind of Canada the Prime Minister wants? Why will
the federal government not pay its fair share for health care?
Ms. Elinor Caplan (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister and the
Minister of Health have said repeatedly that health care is a
priority for this government. I encourage the member to be in
the House tomorrow when the budget is read at 4.15 p.m. Then she
will see that the words of the Prime Minister and the Minister of
Health are reflected in the budget that will be tabled.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
Canadians do not want another budget label or another band-aid.
They want a fair federal share for health care. What does this
government consider to be a fair share? Is it the original 50%
of health care costs that it used to pay or is it the 11% that it
now pays? What is this government's formula for a fair federal
share for health care?
Ms. Elinor Caplan (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, once again I encourage the leader
of the fourth party, the leaders of all parties and all members
to be in their seats tomorrow at 4.15 p.m. when the finance
minister will read the budget. Her questions will be answered.
* * *
TAXATION
Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Mr. Speaker,
Canadians pay the highest income tax in the industrialized world.
The Liberals say there was personal income tax relief in last
year's budget but the numbers do not add up. Their 1998 budget
projections show an increase in personal income tax revenues of
$2.6 billion and a further increase of $2.5 billion for this
year. So why are the Liberals talking tax cuts and doing tax
grabs?
1430
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, tax revenues
obviously go up as the number of jobs and working Canadians goes
up.
Thank goodness we had a very successful year last year: 450,000
new jobs created, 200,000 of those going to young Canadians.
This is why personal income tax revenues are up.
Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Mr. Speaker,
perhaps the secretary of state should explain why the
unemployment rate in Canada is twice that of the U.S. Maybe he
should explain why his government has increased taxes every
single year since 1993.
The fact is the Liberals give tax relief through the front door
and then they take it through the back door due to bracket creep.
Will the government provide meaningful tax relief tomorrow and
reindex the tax brackets, or will this be another give and take
budget where it gives the tax relief in the front door and takes
it from Canadians through the back door?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have a great
deal of respect for the hon. member, except I do not know why he
always does it to himself.
The facts are very simple. When we took office following that
government we had unemployment at 11.4%. We had unemployment
insurance at $3.07 going to $3.30.
We have been able to make very significant dents in both those
areas and I am very pleased that we have been able to do it. But
it was no thanks to what we inherited.
* * *
[Translation]
HEALTH CARE
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, Canadians are
paying higher taxes than ever, but receiving less for their
health care dollar.
Thanks to the federal government, there are now over 200,000
people on waiting lists.
Can the government tell Canadians how a tax hike results in
fewer health services?
[English]
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in terms of tax
concessions, in terms of a balanced approach, in terms of paying
down the debt, this is what we have undertaken in our last five
budgets and which I am sure the hon. member will see reflected in
the budget tabled tomorrow.
We are not maniacal about any one particular area. That is why
we have adopted the balanced approach.
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Perhaps I will try in
English, Mr. Speaker, to get my question across to the
government. It talks about cutting taxes. Taxes have gone up
$1,800 per taxpayer. It talks about protecting health care.
Health care has come down $1,150 per taxpayer. The result is
200,000 people on waiting lists today.
How can the government talk about looking after health care when
it is wrecking it by its increases in taxes?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, even when we were
running a $43 billion deficit our first priority was to restore
$1.5 billion to the transfers for health care. That is where our
priorities were. We are very concerned about the level of health
care for every Canadian. This is why the Prime Minister, the
health minister and the finance minister have said we will be
addressing health in tomorrow's budget.
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont, BQ): Mr. Speaker, of all the
workers protesting EI changes last weekend in the Gaspé, young
people are among the hardest hit. Three out of four are without
work and do not qualify for benefits.
Although he claims to be improving the outlook for young people
by excluding them from EI benefits, is the minister not instead
putting them in an even worse situation by requiring them to pay
more than their share of the $6 billion annual surplus in the
plan?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this is another point on which
we differ completely with the Bloc Quebecois, and I am very
proud to say so. Here we have a party that says young people
should be encouraged to remain unemployed.
What we are saying is that young people must be encouraged to
stay in school as long as possible because that is the surest
way to a secure livelihood.
What we have come up with is the youth employment strategy,
which provides on-the-job experience that they can include in
their CVs, thus bettering their chances of entering the labour
market.
1435
Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont, BQ): Mr. Speaker, if the minister
can boast of supplying the Minister of Finance with a $6 billion
surplus from the EI fund, does that not show that he is more
interested in protecting the image of the government than that
of unemployed workers?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is truly pathetic.
The figures show that, in 1998, 143,000 jobs were created for
young people, a 20-year high. Last month alone, in January 1999,
we created 44,000 full-time jobs for Canadian youth.
That is what young people want: help in entering the job market.
* * *
[English]
TAXATION
Mr. Dick Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I know that between the finance minister and the
secretary of state they possess at least a basic understanding of
simple arithmetic.
They have said they have increased taxes by $1,800 and have cut
health care by $1,100.
My question for the secretary of state is how in his realm of
understanding of arithmetic does he think Canadians should
rejoice in any form about this record?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the tax burden
in Canada, among the G-7, is about in the middle. In that area
we recognize that our personal income taxes are higher than in
any of the other G-7 countries. This is why last year we began
the process of overall personal income tax reductions.
If he is talking about arithmetic, maybe the hon. member could
explain to us how, in the Reform budget, they have a $9 billion
black hole of cuts and they will not even tell us what they are.
Mr. Dick Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, if the secretary of state would like to read our
plan for this country and the budget maybe he would understand
what we are talking about.
The fact is being at the very top of the G-7 countries in tax
levels does not sound like the middle to me. Canadians have had
tax increases of $1,800 since 1993. Their health care has gone
down by $1,100 per taxpayer.
I want to know what the secretary of state thinks can possibly
be good for Canadians on that kind of record. What is good about
it?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I can assure the
House that, unlike the Reform budget, our budget will build in
prudence factors. It will not assume 5.5% growth rates for each
of the next three years. We will not have a $9 billion black
hole of spending cuts without telling Canadians where. We will
not imperil our hard won economic credibility by impossible
promises.
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, because the
Bloc Quebecois defends people who are unemployed, because the
Bloc Quebecois demands only justice for those who contribute to
employment insurance, the minister treats us as old fogeys. We
are old fogeys because we seek justice, because we want an
honest government.
I would ask the minister, if he does not want to meet the same
fate as his predecessor, Doug Young, who was shut out by the
people of New Brunswick because he refused to listen to them,
whether it would not be wiser for him to be attentive—
The Speaker: The Minister of Human Resources Development.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I will not ask the member for
Roberval today to explain why his party dropped from 49% to 38%
of the votes in the last election.
I will say, however, that if I look at events in the Gaspé—we
mentioned this earlier—I could perhaps tell him we established
a $20 million Quebec coastal fund. What is the Quebec coastal
fund? Two hundred and three projects over the past year, which
created the 560 jobs in coastal Quebec we mentioned earlier.
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, if it gives
the minister pleasure, he can come and try his hand in Roberval
if he likes.
1440
Tomorrow, with the budget speech, will the Minister of Human
Resources Development understand that it is not the Minister of
Finance who is the focus of people's concerns, but rather the
Minister of Human Resources Development, whose effectiveness
will be determined by his ability to return to the unemployed
and to workers their due?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the member for Roberval can come
and try his hand in Papineau—Saint-Denis as well. His
colleague from Beauharnois—Salaberry tried that during the
byelection and we saw that the popularity of the Bloc had
dropped as well in the riding of Papineau—Saint-Denis at that
point.
I can tell him that my effectiveness in tomorrow's budget can
already be measured, since we have already announced a permanent
youth employment strategy of $155 million.
We have already announced we will be continuing with the Canada
job creation fund. So there will be things in tomorrow's budget
we have announced, which represent very good news for workers
and the unemployed.
* * *
[English]
HEALTH CARE
Mr. Gerry Ritz (Battlefords—Lloydminster, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the reality of life in Canada today is that while our
tax burden has risen 37 times, health spending has fallen by over
$1,100 per person putting over 200,000 people on waiting lists.
How can the government claim to be a tax cutter and health saver
when the facts prove we are paying more and getting less?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Canadians have a
right to know what it is exactly that the Reform Party is
proposing. “Securing Your Future” refers to $1.1 billion in
cuts to EI benefits, $1 billion in cuts to equalization, $1.1
billion in cuts to regional economic development. At the same
time it would cut EI by 28% but to employers only. Those are
Reform's priorities.
Mr. Gerry Ritz (Battlefords—Lloydminster, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the reality of health care spending right now is that
30% is private funding, 60% comes from the provinces and 10% from
the federal government. That is really saving health care for
the future, is it not?
How can the government be wringing record high levels of taxes
from Canadians? It is sucking the lifeblood out of the health
system. We are paying more and getting less. Why?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, again that is
the party that was calling for a two tier health care system, one
designed to penalize the poor.
We are the party that restored $1.5 billion as our first
spending priority for health care. This is the government which
has brought in about 12 different health care measures in past
budgets. This is the party that is committed to making
tomorrow's budget a health care budget.
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
today more than 150 people representing all of the groups making
up the coalition on employment insurance came to tell the
Minister of Human Resources Development that he must, with all
urgency, improve the employment insurance program, particularly
by making it more accessible to those who need it.
What must all these coalition members think when they see this
minister remaining insensitive to their claims and not
responding to expectations, no matter how legitimate they are?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I had the opportunity this
morning to meet with representatives of the coalition on
employment insurance. We had some very profitable discussions,
a good dialogue which we intend to pursue.
But when I am labelled insensitive, I feel my answers have not
been properly listened to, when I take the time to explain all
the programs which we—
Mr. Yvan Loubier: Liar!
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew: The hon. member for
Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot might perhaps stop calling us liars, Mr.
Speaker.
An hon. member: Thief!
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew: The terms “liar” and “thief” the
member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot persists in using are
unparliamentary, Mr. Speaker.
The programs we are creating are the proof of my sensitivity to
the wishes of the unemployed.
[English]
The Speaker: Order, please. Because the noise
level is a little higher of course I do not hear everything in
this House. I would hope—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. Words such as ones that the
minister used to describe what another member was saying are not
acceptable in this House. I would encourage all hon. members to
stay away from using such words.
* * *
1445
[Translation]
INTERNATIONAL ASSISTANCE
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau (Anjou—Rivière-des-Prairies, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, to cool things off a bit, I have a question on a rather
different topic.
We read in today's newspapers that 80,000 inhabitants of
Russia's far north are facing starvation. Here in Canada, we
understand the challenges and difficulties faced by isolated
northern communities in such situations in winter.
Would the Minister for International Co-operation tell us what
the Government of Canada is going to do to help our northern
neighbours during this crisis?
Mr. Denis Paradis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for
International Cooperation and Minister responsible for
Francophonie, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his
question.
We are very concerned about the famine conditions in which over
80,000 inhabitants of Russia's far north find themselves. In
fact, last January, Canada sent emergency humanitarian aid to
affected communities.
I am pleased to announce today that Canada will contribute up to
$5 million additional dollars through the International Red
Cross. This assistance will go to the most vulnerable members of
communities, that is, to children, the elderly, the disabled and
the homeless.
* * *
[English]
TAXATION
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, when I was a
young man the Ink Spots sang the song The Great Pretender.
The finance minister is pretending that taxes are going down
when every Canadian taxpayer knows that they are going up. He is
pretending that he is protecting health care when all Canadians
know that the lines in hospital corridors and on waiting lists
are longer than ever. What song and dance will we get now from
the great free spender?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we will continue
our overall policy of reducing personal income taxes which was
done on an almost across the board basis last year. But we
cannot do this in an irresponsible manner, one which would
jeopardize our ability to reinvest in the health care structure,
in the social infrastructure and in the economic infrastructure
of our country. As well we have to pay down the debt which is at
an enormous level.
We do not have unlimited options. We have adopted a very
responsible approach.
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I wonder
whether the minister is willing to admit that it is under this
government that those lineups in the hospitals have increased and
it is because of the high taxes and the low funding of health
care. Will he admit it now?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the member said
that we have lineups in hospitals because of high taxes. I do
not understand it.
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the Minister
of Human Resources Development should think about what becomes
of a minister who attacks EI in Canada.
This human resources development minister never agreed to go out
in the field and meet the victims of employment insurance
reform.
However, last fall, the minister indicated he would be very open
to suggestions I might bring back from my national tour on
employment insurance.
This morning, I sent his a copy of my report on the human cost
of the changes made by the Liberal government to the employment
insurance program.
Now that I have done his work for him by talking to workers
across the country, will the minister show how open he is by
adopting my recommendations?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have indeed received the hon.
member's report, which I will be reading soon and with great
interest.
This kind of report and work are useful in the approach taken by
our government, which wants to carefully assess, evaluate and
monitor the impact of EI reform on communities and individuals
across the country. I can therefore assure the hon. member that
I will be reading his report with great interest and that we
will certainly continue our dialogue.
[English]
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I
have done the job the human resources minister should have done
himself. I talked to the unemployed workers across the country.
He turned a deaf ear to Naida in British Columbia who was
refused sickness benefits because she was two hours short of
eligibility requirements. Naida was a mother who was recovering
from a 10-day coma.
1450
Will the minister now do his job and recognize that the reforms
have failed and bring in changes to allow EI to respond to the
needs of the current labour market?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I certainly think it is a
little too soon to say that the reforms have failed. Look at the
situation of the labour market where unemployment is down to
7.8%. Look at the situation with youth unemployment which is
decreasing more than it has in 20 years. I think some of the
things we are doing are fine.
In terms of anecdotes, I could bring forward a number of cases
of individuals who also greatly appreciated the actions of our
government to help them get into the labour market.
* * *
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food is finally going to
announce his new income disaster program next week in Victoria,
British Columbia the heartland of Canadian agriculture.
I am a little concerned with the timing of this announcement
because next week the House does not sit. Next week the
agriculture committee will be in Washington dealing with trade
issues with the Americans.
Would the minister not rather make the announcement in this
House this week after the budget?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am surprised that the hon. member is
disappointed.
Before I announce this I will have final consultations and
discussions with the ministers of agriculture in the other
provinces. I also remind him that the Canadian Federation of
Agriculture is having its annual meeting next week in Regina,
Saskatchewan which I will be attending.
If the hon. member really wants to help Canadian farmers,
particularly in his province, why does he not encourage them and
the provincial government to get on board so that the—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Brandon—Souris.
Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Mr. Speaker, I
would suspect that the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food is
having some difficulty in his portfolio.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
An hon. member: I cannot hear you.
The Speaker: Order. We cannot hear at all. Please let
us hear the questions and the answers.
The hon. member for Brandon—Souris.
Mr. Rick Borotsik: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of
Agriculture and Agri-Food is having some difficulty in his
portfolio.
On February 5 the World Trade Organization ruled against Canada
in an interim report on the United States question on milk
exports into the United States. I am asking the Minister of
Agriculture and Agri-Food right now, if the WTO upholds this
ruling, what has the minister got as a backstop? What does the
minister have for his strategy with respect to trade on the
supply management of dairy?
Mr. Bob Speller (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for
International Trade, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I say to the hon.
member that I do not agree with the premise of his question.
The hon. member should know that we do not comment on interim
reports. The final report is the final report. We will wait for
that report to come out.
* * *
FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Mrs. Sue Barnes (London West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
Today 90% of casualties of war are women and children. This
contrasts with the second world war where it was 48% and the
first world war where it was only 5%.
In light of Canada's leadership at the security council, what is
the minister doing to highlight the issue of the protection of
civilians in armed conflict?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, there was a special initiative at the security
council which allowed us to present the case that the hon. member
just presented to the House.
I am pleased to report that we had unanimous support for a
series of statements and resolutions condemning the practices of
atrocities against civilians. What is more important, there was
an agreement that the secretary general will prepare a series of
recommendations on which the council can act. To support that, on
the same day we announced a major contribution to the United
Nations special office protecting children.
* * *
PUBLIC WORKS
Mr. Rob Anders (Calgary West, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, Alberta
is being discriminated against.
Since 1994 B.C. got Royal Roads Military College and $25
million—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
1455
The Speaker: Order, please. We will hear the member's
question. The hon. member for Calgary West.
Mr. Rob Anders: Since 1994 B.C. got Royal Roads Military
College and $25 million, Ontario got Downsview military site and
$22 million, Quebec got St. Jean Royal Military College and $25
million. Mount Royal College in Calgary is 20% overcapacity and
it turned away 1,500 qualified applicants. It needs land to
expand. The federal government has land from the closure of CFB
Calgary which is right beside the college campus. Why has
Alberta been refused equal treatment?
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Public Works and
Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this issue has been
debated in the House. There have been different meetings between
the premier of Alberta and the Prime Minister. Canada lands is
looking at the issue. There are Treasury Board guidelines for
transfer of land between the federal government and the
provinces. If the province wants the land for its college and it
is ready to apply the Treasury Board guidelines, we will be
pleased to give it.
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, another of the
Minister of Human Resources Development's bright ideas is to tax
back benefits paid to the unemployed if they find employment
paying more than $39,000.
Does the Minister of Human Resources Development plan to
demonstrate to us once again that it is for the good of the
unemployed that he is going to recover benefits paid to them if
they get good jobs? Is this one of his wonderful strategies for
improving the situation of the unemployed?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, our reform is made up of a very
large number of elements. There are elements of fairness.
It is true that under some conditions we will go back to the
$39,000 income level and take back some of the benefits that
have been paid out, but not the first year, only after five
years in which the person has been back in the work force and
has systematically reached that level.
It is therefore a matter of progression, connected first and
foremost with the question of fairness to all workers, and a
matter of being sure that we are able to do as much as possible
for the least advantaged.
* * *
[English]
THE ECONOMY
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
NDP): Mr. Speaker, in advance of the budget, various trial
balloons advocating selective tax cuts and grants were floated.
It sounds suspiciously like the old return to the trickle down
economic school of thinking.
I want to tell the Minister of Finance that Canadians are sick
and tired of being trickled on. I want to ask him a serious
question. Will there be enough in the budget to give hope to
hardworking Canadians who have recently lost their jobs, lost
their businesses, lost their farms, lost their livelihoods, or
will they have to wait for the trickle down to occur before
anything in terms of hope returns?
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member
raises a very important problem. If actions are any indication
of the future budget, let me indicate what we have already done.
In the last budget we took 400,000 of the lowest income Canadian
taxpayers right off the tax rolls. Over the last two budgets we
introduced the child tax benefit, starting at $850 million and
doubling it in the last budget for our biggest expenditure on a
social program aimed at helping the poorest working families.
That is our record.
* * *
[Translation]
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, PC): Mr. Speaker, last week I
attended joint committee information sessions on Kosovo.
At this time we already have 2,000 people taking part in foreign
operations, and it was explained to us that deployment of a new
tactical group to Kosovo would stretch us to the breaking point.
My question is for the Minister of National Defence. While the
1994 white paper states that Canada must be capable of deploying
10,000 at a time, how can it be that we will be stretched to the
breaking point if we deploy another 1,200 soldiers to Kosovo?
[English]
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, no decision has been made with respect to
Kosovo. Preliminary discussions are going on now as to the
possible use of ground troops. Should an agreement come out of
the discussions in Rambouillet that would result in ground forces
going into Kosovo, at that time the government will make a
decision with parliamentary consultation.
1500
It is a question of priority. If that is where we feel our
troops should be then that is where we can put them to help end
the bloodshed in Kosovo.
* * *
[Translation]
HEALTH
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of
Health.
One of the main recommendations in the final report of the
advisory council on health infrastructure is the provision of a
public report card so as to improve the general accountability
of our health care system.
Since the Government of Canada is responsible for health care
standards, does the department support this recommendation and
will it undertake discussions with the provinces and territories
with the aim of—
The Speaker: The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of
Health.
[English]
Ms. Elinor Caplan (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I acknowledge the member's
interest in this question.
The government is very much supportive of developing a report
card to Canadians. We acknowledge the work done by the Advisory
Council on Health Infrastructure and its very important report
entitled “The Health Info Way”.
We accept its recommendations and believe that all governments
should be working together so that we can be more accountable to
Canadians for the delivery of the health services they receive.
We believe that a report card will assist Canadians in having
confidence that services will be there for them when they need
it.
* * *
PRESENCE IN GALLERY
The Speaker: I wish to draw the attention of hon.
members to the presence in the gallery of the honourable Gordon
Wilson, Minister of Aboriginal Affairs for the province of
British Columbia.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[Translation]
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in
both official languages, the government's response to five
petitions.
* * *
1505
[English]
CANADA ELECTIONS ACT
Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris—Moose Mountain, Ref.) moved for
leave to introduce Bill C-478, an act to amend the Canada
Elections Act.
He said: Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to introduce this
bill which will amend the Canada Elections Act.
The bill prevents the disaster that happened in the last federal
election in which people in Saskatchewan voted behind everybody
else. This amendment to the act will remove that embarrassment.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
RECOGNITION OF CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY ACT
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.) moved for
leave to introduce Bill C-479, an act to establish by the
beginning of the twenty-first century a permanent museum exhibit
to recognize the crimes against humanity as defined by the United
Nations that have been perpetrated during the twentieth century.
He said: Madam Speaker, I rise in the House today to present my
private member's bill. This act shall be cited as the
Recognition of Crimes Against Humanity Act.
The purpose of the bill is to mandate the establishment at the
beginning of the 21st century of an exhibit in the Canadian
Museum of Civilization recognizing all crimes against humanity
that have been perpetrated during the 20th century.
Canadians from many diverse backgrounds have been affected by
crimes against humanity that have taken place throughout the 20th
century. The suffering of any group of victims is no less
significant than that of any other group.
In introducing the bill I hope to address the concern that the
creation of a museum to recognize only one group of victims would
severely diminish the significance of the millions of other lives
that have been lost or ruined as victims of crimes against
humanity.
How can we as a government support one group of victims and
ignore the suffering of others?
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
PETITIONS
MARRIAGE
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Madam Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36, I have the honour to present a
petition signed by several people in Edmonton. Many of them are
from the Sheppherds care manor in Edmonton North: Nick
Hebberhold, Sadie Redomski, Mr. William Block and Esther Bartel.
I see my aunt's name is on here, Thelma Larson.
Whereas the majority of Canadians understand the concept of
marriage is only the voluntary union of a single, that is
unmarried, male and a single, that is unmarried, female and
whereas it is the duty of parliament that marriage as it has
always been and understood in Canada be preserved and protected,
the petitioners pray that parliament enact Bill C-225, an act to
amend the Marriage Prohibited Degrees Act and the Interpretation
Act, so as to define in statute that a marriage can only be
entered into between a single male and a single female.
HUMAN RIGHTS
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36, I am pleased to present a petition
on the subject human rights signed by a number of Canadians
including from my own riding of Mississauga South.
The petitioners would like to draw to the attention of the House
that human rights abuses continue to be rampant around the world,
particularly in countries such as Indonesia. The petitioners
also point out that Canada continues to be recognized
internationally as a champion of human rights.
1510
Therefore the petitioners call upon parliament to continue to
condemn human rights abuses around the world and to seek to bring
to justice those responsible for such abuses.
BILATERAL AGREEMENTS
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
NDP): Madam Speaker, I must say that my aunt's name is not on
this one; if she knew about it she would have signed.
I have a petition to present on behalf of a number of
constituents from the Shuswap Lake area adjacent to my
constituency.
They are concerned about the various bilateral agreements that
fail to protect Canada's social programs, environmental programs
and a variety of benefit programs. They point out in particular
the MMT issue.
The petitioners are suggesting that parliament reconsider these
various agreements on these grounds.
TAXATION
Mr. Paul Bonwick (Simcoe—Grey, Lib.): Madam Speaker, my
aunt did not sign this petition, either, but it is one for
automotive tool mechanics.
Pursuant to Standing Order 36, I table a petition signed by
constituents of Simcoe—Grey as well as concerned Canadians from
all across the country.
The petition deals with the tool tax credit presently
non-existent on tool purchases for automotive mechanics. At the
present time unlike many other professions they are not able to
receive a federal tax credit for them.
Therefore the petitioners request that parliament redress this
taxation policy, amending the applicable legislation to allow
current and future technicians to deduct their investment in
automotive repair tools.
GHANA AIRWAYS
Mr. Gurbax Singh Malhi (Bramalea—Gore—Malton—Springdale,
Lib.): Madam Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I have
the honour of presenting the following petition signed by 30
concerned individuals.
The petitioners call upon parliament to encourage the government
to consider allowing Ghana Airways to fly into Canada at least
once a week.
Currently members of the West African community, many of whom
reside in my riding of Bramalea—Gore—Malton—Springdale, have
no direct route from Canada to the old country.
TOBACCO
Mr. Gurbax Singh Malhi (Bramalea—Gore—Malton—Springdale,
Lib.): Madam Speaker, I have the honour to present a second
petition, pursuant to Standing Order 36, signed by 26 concerned
constituents.
Currently many young people are smoking despite clear evidence
that tobacco causes cancer. Therefore the petitioners call upon
parliament to encourage the government to lend its full support
to well funded educational and public awareness programs aimed at
reversing the growing youth smoking trend.
MARRIAGE
Mr. Murray Calder (Dufferin—Peel—Wellington—Grey,
Lib.): Madam Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I wish
to present a petition on behalf of my constituents of
Dufferin—Peel—Wellington—Grey recognizing marriage as a
voluntary union of a single male and a single female and to
ensure that marriage be preserved and protected.
RIGHTS OF GRANDPARENTS
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36, I am pleased to rise in the House
today to present a petition signed by a number of Canadians.
These petitioners wish to draw to the attention of the House
matters about which they are deeply concerned, namely that as
grandparents and as a consequence of death, separation or divorce
of their children, they are often denied access to their
grandchildren by their guardians; that the relationship which
exists between grandparents and grandchildren is a natural,
fundamental one; and that the denial of access can constitute
elder abuse and can have a serious detrimental and emotional
impact on both the grandparents and the grandchildren.
The petitioners wish that legislation would be introduced which
would in fact amend the Divorce Act to include a provision as
proposed and provided for in Bill C-340 regarding the right of
the parents of spouses, the grandparents, to access or to custody
of their grandchildren.
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I have
a petition signed by Canadians from Winnipeg, Regina and
elsewhere.
The petitioners are asking parliament to amend the Divorce Act
to include the provision as supported in Bill C-340 regarding the
right of the parents of spouses, that is the grandparents, to
have access to their grandchildren.
* * *
1515
[Translation]
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
Question No. 162 will be answered today.
.[Text]
Question No. 162—Mr. Paul Forseth:
With respect to contributions made by Heritage Canada and Public
Works and Government Services Canada for building restoration, in
each of the last five years, 1994 to 1998: (a) how many have
been made; (b) what specifically have they been for; (c)
what was the geographic location; and (d) what was the amount
of each contribution, including whether or not it was on a
matching basis?
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): I am informed as
follows: The Department of Public Works and Government Services
did not provide any contributions for building restoration from
1994 to 1998. Canadian Heritage contributions for building
restoration made by the Parks Canada program over the last five
years are listed as follows.
[Translation]
Mr. Peter Adams: Madam Speaker, I ask that the remaining
questions be allowed to stand.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Is it agreed?
[English]
Mr. John Cummins (Delta—South Richmond, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I did not hear clearly, but I do not believe the parliamentary
secretary mentioned Questions Nos. 132 or 138. It has been over
six months now since those questions were asked. As I pointed
out before, there are families of Canadian servicemen waiting for
the answers to these questions.
I want to ask the hon. member two things. First, will the
government commit to tabling a response by Friday or even a
partial response prior to the parliamentary break? If the answer
to that question is no, will the government undertake to explain
what problem it has encountered in the six months that have
passed in answering this question?
Mr. Peter Adams: Madam Speaker, the member has pursued
these answers with great diligence. I commend him for that. I
know he is very interested and is acting on behalf of his
constituents.
In the past I have said “fairly soon”, “in the fullness of
time” and this kind of thing. However, I want him to know I
have been actively seeking the answers. Although I cannot quite
respond in the way he would wish, we will have both answers very
soon.
Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Madam Speaker, I
rise on a point of order.
I too am a bit frustrated with the wheels of government and how
slowly they turn. I refer to a question on the order paper I
placed 135 days ago. These questions are to be answered within 45
days. There has now been a substantial amount of time separating
when it should have been on my desk and where it is now. It is
Question No. P-50 and I would like to bring it to the attention
of the government to please try to get the answer to me on this
question.
Mr. Peter Adams: Madam Speaker, I think the member is
referring to a Motion for the Production of Papers which are
normally dealt with on Wednesdays.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Shall the remaining
questions stand?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL FISCAL ARRANGEMENTS ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-65, an
act to amend the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act, be
read the second time and referred to a committee.
Mr. Gerry Ritz (Battlefords—Lloydminster, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, we are here this afternoon discussing Bill C-65, the
equalization bill.
One thing that concerns me in this bill is there seems to be no
recognition of costs in creating the wealth, only more confusing
ways of counting revenues. The federal government wants to know
how much the final product is worth rather than simply count the
number of logs after the fact. There might be some common sense
there but it is hard to see how it will work in practice.
I am thinking about Saskatchewan's agricultural production and I
wonder if there is any consideration for the greater input costs
that go into producing the higher value crops. Presumably my
province will be penalized equalization payments because our
farmers will be earning more for pulse crops than they did for
growing the straight grain commodities. The problem is that
growing higher value crops is more expensive and there seems to
be a disincentive to invest and innovate built into this approach
to equalization.
We have no indication that this government is listening to the
auditor general or the provinces that have an interest in
removing disincentives. There is no argument that disincentives
exist in this equalization scheme. We hear that from both sides.
How else can we explain the fact that some of the highest sales
taxes in this country are charged by the have not governments of
Atlantic Canada through harmonized governance?
1520
These provinces suffer from higher than average unemployment and
lower than average incomes but their citizens are charged higher
sales taxes than in Ontario and certainly in Alberta.
By overcharging on certain taxes these provinces suppress
consumer activity but at least are not penalized equalization
money because the revenues are below averages enjoyed elsewhere.
If anybody in this House is still under the illusion that higher
taxes raise more revenues I invite them to look at the examples
of the successes enjoyed by Ontario and certainly Alberta. We
are aware that Ontario is looking at alternatives to the present
equalization schemes because the world that existed when this
system was first cooked up 40 years ago is now quite different.
Trade flows across North America and between us, European and
Asian countries have undergone dramatic change. This bill seems
to want to perpetuate a system that Canada has outgrown. In the
meantime the government, despite promises going back to 1993, has
failed to address billions of dollars lost through
interprovincial trade barriers while it thinks up new ways to
irritate the Americans and interfere with that important market.
The point is there are many ways to grow the national economy
that do not include sending wealth through the bureaucratic meat
grinder here in Ottawa. Wealth creation is not a zero sum game
where if the government does not grab a share off the top and
sends it to where it thinks it is needed that somehow no wealth
would ever be distributed. That has never been a true picture of
economic activity and we are still waiting for this government to
grasp that simple economic concept.
The urge to tinker and micro manage the economy leads to some
unfortunate distortions. Subsidies to have not provinces allow
them to charge less in some areas than the cost of the service
and conversely because have provinces are obligated to finance
those subsidies they must collect more taxes than they might
otherwise wish to. We know high taxes penalize low income
Canadians, proportionately more than high income Canadians.
The fact that governments turn around and dish out the high
taxes in the form of credits and social programs only begs the
question why take it away from them in the first place. A C.D.
Howe study showed that when the extra taxes are taken away from
low income earners in a have province they are just as likely to
end up in the hands of a higher income citizen of a have not
province. This includes all services and is reflected in the
fact that Alberta families earning $30,000 to $40,000 a year pay
9% more in taxes than they receive in government services while
Canadians earning the same amount in a have not province, like
Saskatchewan right next door, see anywhere from 2.4% to 15.4%
more in return than they pay out. Where is the fairness? How
does this constitute equalization?
If this was one country where Canadians were welcome to live
anywhere within our borders then we could not tolerate policies
that paid people to stay where jobs did not exist at the expense
of people who sought out opportunities where they did. My
province of Saskatchewan has seen its population stagnate or
migrate over the years but I do not support policies that would
encourage people to sit at home. Saskatchewan has tremendous
potential and I would like to see that explored first. No one
should be treated as a liability that their home province has to
pay for, and that is what this legislation seems to do.
Clearly what we should be doing is looking at ways to unleash
the potential of every province and region of this great country.
We should be examining legislation that average Canadians can
understand that is so clear that it does not need special
exemptions and rulings, that focuses the benefits of any program
on the people who need it most. I do not think there is a better
definition of equalization than that.
The idea is to help those in need have the same opportunity as
others, not move everyone to the lowest common denominator. We
cannot guarantee the same outcome, and maybe that is what this
government is going for.
As usual, we started out with simple intentions 40 some years
ago and ended up with a tax code and gun registry that are
totally unworkable. Billions of dollars are intended to
accomplish certain objectives but the objectives end up being
blurred. Accountability is sacrificed in the name of an ideal and
the ideal ends up being overrun by events.
By all means let us agree that we want the whole country to
enjoy the wealth we have generated within our borders but let us
not keep our citizens from creating their own wealth on their own
initiative.
We must remember there is only one taxpayer whether from Alberta
or Newfoundland. The so-called have provinces must maintain
higher taxes to pay their share of equalization which has an
impact on poorer people of that province just so programs can
exist to subsidize not so poor people in have not provinces.
Bill C-65 is really all about the federal government maintaining
control of tax loads, to have a say in provincial affairs. As we
know, he who has the money makes the rules, but in the end is
that the best Canadian taxpayers can expect?
1525
Mr. Tony Valeri (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): Madam Speaker, the member made reference to
have not provinces and the fact that we are in some sense
subsidizing have not provinces and that we treat have not
provinces like liabilities.
I would like to clarify for the hon. member that we do not treat
any province like a liability. The intention of equalization is
to ensure that all provinces are able to provide a comparable
level of service to Canadians so that Canadians, regardless of
where they live, have an opportunity to receive health care and
social services benefits.
Alberta and British Columbia, which are have provinces today,
were provinces that did receive equalization payments in the
past. So equalization payments are meant to try to support
provinces as they are continuing to improve their economic
circumstance and once they improve their economic circumstance
equalization payments are no longer provided to those provinces.
I guess the true colour of the Reform Party comes through when
the member says the objective of the government is to try to
guarantee the same outcome or equal outcomes for Canadians and it
just cannot be done. I disagree with the hon. member.
Equalization is a cornerstone of what it is to be Canadian, and
that is to try to provide have not provinces with the ability to
provide equal services or services of comparable value to
Canadians.
He went on to make an accusation about how low income Canadians
from have provinces are subsidizing high income Canadians of have
not provinces. For a given level of income, all Canadians pay
the same federal taxes irrespective of which province they live
in. So I ask the hon. member to take the time to speak with his
provincial counterparts about equalization.
Saskatchewan is a recipient of equalization and I think
individuals who live in Saskatchewan appreciate this program. It
is a program provided in consultation and collaboration with the
provinces. It is renewed every five years. It is reviewed every
February and October of each year to assess what the payments are
and it is a collaborative effort. It is meant to provide
comparable services. I fail to understand how the hon. member
could disagree with that premise.
Mr. Gerry Ritz: Madam Speaker, I thank the parliamentary
secretary for his intervention. I think he misread what I said.
I said people in the have not provinces should not be treated as
liabilities.
What we want to create is equality of opportunity, not equality
of outcome. We cannot do that. We have regional disparity. We
have different things happening across this country. But
equality of opportunity, quality of life, we are all after those
goals. It is a great target to shoot for.
When we look at equalization across the country, Saskatchewan is
a have not province for whatever reasons. I am wondering why
Saskatchewan oil revenues are not treated the same as
Newfoundland oil revenues. Newfoundland is also a have not
province. Why do we have different sets of rules for different
provincial jurisdictions? Why do we have some extra little
things written for other areas?
Mr. Tony Valeri: That is on the value of the resources.
Mr. Gerry Ritz: The value of the product, sure. That is
what I talked about in my speech as well, the value of pulse
crops. The value of a tobacco crop in Ontario is certainly
different than the value of a canary crop in Saskatchewan. How
does the government come to a formula that is workable and fair
to everyone with all of those different codicils and amendments
to it?
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
NDP): Madam Speaker, I listened to my friend's remarks with
interest. I wonder if he shared the same observation that I made
when I was looking through the transfer payments that were made
to the province of Saskatchewan over the years. My friend will
know that Saskatchewan in some years has been a have province and
in other years it has been a have not province. Did he notice
the correlation between which political party was in office
during the have years and which political party was in office
during the have not years?
If my friend did not read the reports, it is interesting to
notice that subsequent years of Liberal and Conservative
governments inevitably resulted in the province becoming heavily
indebted and therefore qualifying for equalization payments.
Then the CCF or the NDP would be elected and over two or three
years balance the books and get into a situation where there was
no deficit and therefore lost the status of a have not province.
1530
There is a curious relationship between political parties and
being in and out of debt. Did my friend notice that when he was
looking at these statistics?
Mr. Gerry Ritz: Madam Speaker, I thank the member from
Kamloops for his great intervention on Saskatchewan provincial
politics.
Since I live there and he does not, I can tell him that being a
have not province regardless of who is governing us is not a
great thing to be. Regardless of what government has been in
Saskatchewan the problem we have seen is that we still have not
fulfilled the potential we have in that great province. We have
the resources, the pioneering spirit and the entrepreneurial
drive.
Under the NDP government we have seen in the last number of
years utility rates rather than taxes go through the roof. Those
are not part of the equalization system. We have seen a 9% PST
hike and we have backed off a little on that. Roads are in
terrible disarray. Health care is abysmal with waiting lines
that are unacceptable.
It does not seem to matter what government is in power. It
still comes down to some cash transfers from the federal
government that everybody relies on. It becomes a disincentive
to get out there and make things happen on your own.
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
perhaps I was not listening correctly. I heard if not
disparaging remarks about the equalization program, faint praise
of that program.
The equalization program is one of all sorts of links and flows
which make up this Confederation. In this case it is not some
form of charity which is being given to provinces which at this
moment under the formula are defined as being have not.
For example, with the case of the province of Saskatchewan, the
flows back to the Confederation of the other provinces includes
the wonderful health care system we have now. This is something
which Saskatchewan has given to us. It was developed there and
tried out there and the whole country was able to take it up. It
has flourished in a sense.
The member mentioned oil in particular. I do not think he
understands that the equalization part which has to do with oil
is arranged so it reflects the price of oil, the cost of the
production of oil in the province to which the equalization
payments are directed. This is very clear on looking at the
simulation I have here of equalization changes.
Is the member really saying that he does not like the
equalization program? Also, does he not think that every five
years there should be a thorough review of it so it reflects
current conditions across the country?
Mr. Gerry Ritz: Madam Speaker, the parliamentary
secretary talked about the cost of the production of oil.
Newfoundland's is maybe higher offshore. The problem in
Saskatchewan is that it is very heavy crude that we are trying to
pump. We are into steam recovery. We are into upgrading it and
all sorts of things. We have costs involved as well. I am saying
that if the formula gets so convoluted and tough to work with it
becomes a bureaucratic nightmare.
As I said in my speech, the average family in Alberta earning
$30,000 to $40,000 a year pays 9% more in taxes than it receives
in government services. The tax load has to be higher from
Alberta, a have province, to subsidize a have not province like
Saskatchewan next door. Those are the facts. Those are the
government's numbers.
When we speak about health care in Saskatchewan, we have closed
57 hospitals in the last number of years. We are still spending
$300 million more in health care than we did before we closed
those hospitals. We have fewer doctors and nurses. We have
longer waiting lists. We have a horrendous amount of
administrators, facilitators, co-ordinators and all sorts of
paper pushers and nobody servicing anybody who is ill. It is not
acceptable.
Mr. Nelson Riis: Madam Speaker, when we are discussing
equalization payments, what we are trying to do is establish a
level playing field for Canadians no matter where they happen to
live in the country.
One of the critical areas as we enter the knowledge based
economy of the 21st century is access to education.
1535
Does my hon. friend share the view that perhaps it is time to be
bold when it comes to funding education and eliminate tuition
fees? Tuition fees across the country come to about $3 billion.
We have a surplus of between $10 billion and $15 billion. If the
Minister of Finance wished, we could actually eliminate all
tuition fees from post-secondary institutions like most of the
other OECD countries did long ago. Would the member support this
notion?
Mr. Gerry Ritz: Madam Speaker, it is an interesting
concept to have everyone receive more education. That is
definitely a laudable goal. We are into a knowledge based
economy. Canada leads the world in a lot of the technology.
I do not think it is feasible to eliminate tuition fees. I
would certainly like to see the government rather than direct
money to the university, the physical structure and all the
things that go with it, to redirect it to the actual students so
the students control the outcome of their own education.
Mr. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I believe I will be splitting my time.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I have to advise the
members we are at the stage of 10 minute speeches with no
questions and comments. The hon. member has 10 minutes.
Mr. Steve Mahoney: Madam Speaker, I am being heckled by
members of my own caucus, but for good reason. Since it is a 10
minute address with no opportunity for questions and comments, I
will just have to put my points across.
Mr. Nelson Riis: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I want to apologize to my friend for interrupting his
remarks.
Unfortunately we have just been informed that we have reached
the 10 minute period during which the standing orders do not
allow for any questions and comments. Because of the interesting
exchange we have been having, I wonder if I could seek unanimous
consent to allow 10 minutes at the end of the member's
presentation to have questions and comments.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Does the hon. member
have the unanimous consent of the House?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Steve Mahoney: Madam Speaker, I must admit that I am
somewhat disappointed that it was this side of the House that
would not allow questions and comments. I do thank the hon.
member for asking for unanimous consent.
What really matters in this place is the debate that goes on
between the parties. I would welcome a response to some of the
perhaps mildly critical points I wish to make with regard to some
of the comments and the process that is going on here.
I have heard members from all parties talk about their concern
that we are operating under time allocation on this bill. Time
allocation is a very interesting process which has been used by
all governments in this place and across the country when there
is an obstreperous and obtrusive opposition party which simply
wants to oppose and stop the government's agenda from going
forward. It does not have to be based on any kind of solid
rationale. It simply has to be based on the fact that opposition
members got out of bed this morning and said “We not know what
is going on in the House but we are opposed to it”. That is
their mentality when they come to work.
The only option for a government, particularly a majority
government that wants to get on with the business of Canada, the
business of concerned Canadians, is to use the parliamentary
tools that are available. This happens to be one of them.
It is also interesting that opposition members would claim that
there has not been a dialogue or discussion. In fact, the
proposed amendments here are the result of over two years of
extensive consultations and review of the equalization program by
the federal government and the provinces.
It is rather interesting that the opposition members would
suggest there has not been an opportunity for dialogue. In fact,
those who are most directly affected by this equalization program
are the provincial governments, the people in the provinces. I
think they agree it is important that we get on with the renewal
of this particular program.
It is important when people use words, particularly in this place,
that we try to understand what they mean because they can be
clouded. They can be hidden. They can actually be tricky the
odd time.
1540
I heard a member from the Reform Party say that the Reform Party
is interested in seeing equality of opportunity and not equality
of outcome. Interesting. Put that together with the question
that was asked of him by one of the hon. members opposite about
tuition fees in universities. I would say that equality of
opportunity to the Reform Party simply means that there should be
an opportunity to attend post-secondary education somewhere in
the country but equality of outcome which Reform is opposed to
means that they are going to have to pay whatever it is the
Reform Party decides to pass on.
We as the national government believe not only in equality of
opportunity but also in equality of outcome. They must go
together, otherwise we end up with disparities around the country
where the rich will be able to afford to send their sons and
daughters to universities and colleges, but the majority of
Canadians will not. That is what it means if we look at putting
the opportunity there but do not worry about the outcome or the
mechanisms that are put in place to help Canadians.
I refer to a speech that was made by the hon. Leader of the
Opposition, the leader of the Reform Party. This is important
because it is an example of a party whose members will stand and
say what they think Canadians want to hear and then they will
change the words. Let me share some examples.
The Leader of the Official Opposition said in a speech on this
bill “I do not think it can be stressed enough that equalization
is an important principle which makes our federation work”. One
would assume by that statement that he would be in support of the
bill. I do not want to take it out of context but it is a
reasonable assumption, it makes the federation work. Then he goes
on to say the official opposition, the Reform Party, is committed
to equalization and has been from the outset. Once again one
would think that he is indicating that he supports this.
I remember the Ross Perot presidential campaigns in the United
States. We know that most of Reform's positions come out of
American policies. Ross Perot would point to a chart and it
would be a matter of if you want to know why the car does not
run, you have to open up the hood and look at the engine.
Terrific.
The Leader of the Opposition goes to the Ross Perot school of
politics. He wants four columns. This makes equalization clear
to him. It is sort of like a game show.
Column one would show what the province would receive through
simple equal per capita grants in support of social programs.
There is nothing in column one to deal with geography. Take a
look at what we are going to see when Nunavut starts up. They
are having their elections today.
The per capita grant in Nunavut for reasons of climate,
geography and demographics will be substantially higher than the
per capita grant for Saskatchewan or somewhere else in the
country. It seems fair that we do not simply look at the number
of people who exist in a particular province or territory, but we
deal with the real issues. How do these people survive? But not
in the Ross Perot school, and I cannot say the Leader of the
Opposition's name of course, since it is unparliamentary—but not
in that school of economics and politics.
Column two would show what the province would receive in terms
of enhanced and better focused equalization. He is somehow going
to magically top it up. That is the name of the game. If you
get the right column maybe there is a top up. It just depends,
we are not sure.
Column three would show what the people and employers would
receive through tax cuts. While he wants to top up the
equalization plan with increased transfers, he is also going to
cut taxes.
1545
It reminds me of the Reform Party's position on health care
funding. It said that it would put 50% of the surplus toward tax
relief, 50% of the surplus toward paying down the debt and the
other 50% that it will somehow magically manufacture I suppose
will go to health care. It is voodoo economics without question.
Number four would give the total of all this. I am not quite
sure whether this is reinventing the wheel or gamesmanship or a
show business mentality, trying to be different. I do not see
the substantive benefits in any way whatsoever. I mentioned we
have to be careful about interpreting the words used by people
who speak in this House.
This is a quote from the Leader of the Opposition: “The
premiers should take off their premiers' hats for just a day and
put on their political leaders' hats. I assure those provincial
leaders who favour reform of the federation over fossilized
federalism”—if that is not Ross Perot I do not know what
is—“that they will find an ally in federal Reformers united to
create a better alternative to this bankrupt administration”.
Very interesting. I have finally discovered where the words
united alternative came from. In reality we are hearing that if
the premiers will forget about their responsibilities to
represent all the people of the province, whether those people
voted for them or not, and if the premiers will simply put on
their partisan political hats, then the Reform Party will line up
beside them.
This is a group of people who do not even understand the
traditional significance of the equalization system in this
country that ensures Canadians from sea to sea to sea have equal
opportunity and equal outcome to ensure that they and their
families will have access to all social programs and economic
development programs in this country. It is astounding to me
that Reformers would be opposed to a bill that would share the
wealth throughout this great land.
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, I will try to bring this debate back to Bill C-65. It
is my pleasure to rise today on behalf of the residents of
Saanich—Gulf Islands and to speak to this bill, an act to amend
the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act. As we know from
previous speakers, the primary objective of this bill is to renew
the federal equalization program for another five years.
I will not take time to simply recount what my caucus colleagues
and the leader of the official opposition have said with respect
to Bill C-65. It has been repeated and eloquently stated by the
Reform Party and the people of Canada that they do support the
principle of equalization. That is very important to remember.
We support the principle of equalization, but that does not mean
we cannot improve the delivery vehicle.
Equalization transfers will amount to nearly $9 billion this
year alone and will account for 8% of all federal program
spending. That is an incredible amount of money. Yet with
regard to one of the government's largest expenditure items the
Liberal government recoils from any real scrutiny.
It is absolutely shameful that the government gave the House a
single day's notice that it would introduce this bill. It is
shameful that it did this without asking Canadians whether
equalization adequately served their needs. The government
claimed there were two years of consultations yet we had one
day's notice of this legislation's coming before the House. It is
shameful for this government to invoke closure after only one day
of debate. We have seen that over and over again in the House.
It is shameful that the government is ramming this legislation
through to avoid any real debate or accountability.
Let us not dwell on those acts but talk about the details of
this bill. I want to address the misinformation we hear from the
members opposite. I reiterate that we support the principle of
equalization throughout this great country. A common theme among
proponents is that this program works so well that it does not
need our full attention. They say things like the formula is
absolutely clear, transparent, simple. I have heard it being
referred to as scientific. A few members a few moments ago said
it is very clear.
1550
I would argue that the opponents opposite are wrong. It is
absolutely not transparent. It is not clear. It is not
scientific nor is it precise.
Let us just look at the legislation. The general formula is
laid out in section 4 of the Federal-Provincial Fiscal
Arrangements Act. It is very important that we read the facts
and this is what the formula states:
(1) Subject to the provisions of this part, the fiscal
equalization payment that may be paid to a province for a fiscal
year is the amount, as determined by the minister, equal to the
greater of
(i) the aggregate of the amounts obtained by subtracting, for
each revenue source, the per capita yield in that province for
the revenue source for that fiscal year from the average per
capital yield of the provinces of Ontario, Quebec, British
Columbia, Manitoba and Saskatchewan for the revenue source for
that fiscal year by
(ii) the population of the province for that fiscal year, and
That is the equalization formula, word for word right out of the
act. I have to note that days before Premier Tobin in
Newfoundland called his election he automatically received $30
million, the exact amount of Newfoundland's deficit, so he could
say he balanced the books before he called the election and that
met this formula.
I am only a short way into my 20 minutes so I will try to get
right down to it. I see some members are not interested as we
get to the facts and give them the specifics of this.
It is a natural response to the bureaucratese that those members
claim is so transparent and it is not even worth debating. We
need a formula that will work, that is truly equalization, and I
will get to offering alternatives.
Thousands of Canadians could be asked about that formula I just
read and they would not be able to decipher it. Even most people
in this Chamber, members who are used to reading legal jargon,
would have to carefully read and reread, mull it over for a few
minutes and attempt a guess. Then the 301 members of this
Chamber could be asked to give their definition of how the
formula works. I suggest there would be 301 different answers.
Even if it could be figured out there is a mountain of
preparatory calculations that needs to be made before actually
making the transfers. An army of specialized economists is
needed to calculate the revenue base and the per capita yield of
each province for 31 separate revenues. I would wager there is
not one member here who could list 31 revenue sources without
looking at notes.
This is all out of the formula. It creates a bureaucracy, a
glass tower of people even to come up with this formula. They
work all year long on it. There are all kinds they have to look
at, personal income tax, corporate income tax, corporate capital
tax, general miscellaneous sales taxes, harmonized sales tax,
amusement tax, fuel tax, motor vehicle, alcohol, medical,
forestry, mining, water rentals, and the list goes on and on. I
have pages of them here.
There are more such as provincial and municipal property taxes,
racetrack tax and lottery ticket sales. All these have to go
through pages and pages of formulations for every single province
to come up with this formula.
To suggest it is not politicized is absolutely ludicrous. In
only a stroke of a pen the province of Newfoundland received $30
million to balance the books before the premier called the
election the next day. He had a balanced budget.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. The Federal-Provincial
Fiscal Arrangements Act and the amendments laid out in Bill C-65
are complex and confusing to say the least. They are nothing
compared to the actual calculations made by the finance
department number crunchers.
I have here the results of the revenue source calculations. I
have done my homework and looked at this. I do not know if I can
get into this in 10 minutes. There are pages and pages of
calculations in this book. Each line is a very small step. I
cannot get into them all.
They have to go through this for every single one of the revenue
sources for every single province.
1555
There are 95 general steps for each revenue source for each of
the 10 provinces. That is nearly 1,000 separate calculations.
They are all added up, it goes on and on and in the end we have
tens of thousands of calculations done by the number crunchers.
The point I am trying to make is that we have this simple,
clear, transparent amending formula that creates a huge mountain
of bureaucracy.
Yes, I believe in equalization for all 10 provinces. I have
travelled this country from coast to coast to coast. I believe
in this country and that is why I am standing in the House. We
could not have a better country. But just because that is the
way it has been done for 50 years does not mean that is the way
it has to stay. There are better vehicles to do this than the
bureaucracy we have created.
Of the members asked how will the Reform Party meet its
financial numbers, 50% to tax reduction and 50% to debt. The
other numbers come from reducing the size of government,
eliminating these bureaucracies.
There must be a simpler way. As the leader of the official
opposition, the finance critic and a number of my colleagues have
pointed out, we simply cannot stand back and tinker with
federal-provincial financial relations, with something so
important and so complex and convoluted we need a task force to
consult with policy experts and others. We need to talk about
substantive reform and about the three pillars that finance our
social services. We need to rethink our tax policy, rethink
Canadian health and social transfers and rethink equalization. We
need to look at all three because they are tangled up together.
They are interrelated.
Real reforms, real improvements mean first of all we must
simplify and rationalize federal transfers by providing equal per
capita grants to all provinces for social purposes. Second, we
should simplify and refocus the equalization program even more to
low income provinces. Third, we must introduce substantive broad
based tax relief to increase disposable incomes of Canadians.
These are issues we must address to improve the social and
economic well-being of our citizens. We need to debate these
issues and we need to act now. We do not need the status quo.
Liberal tinkering and half measures that continue to prop up our
fossilized federalism are not the way to go.
I could not in good conscience support Bill C-65. I urge all
members to reject this bill and demand the government introduce
real improvements to Canada's social policy.
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
NDP): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to say a few words on Bill
C-65.
I differ a bit from my friend who just spoke. At this second
reading stage we will be supporting Bill C-65 but with a little
qualification. I think it is fair to say that when we look at
the formula for determining the equalization payments, it is
appropriate that in committee we examine this in considerable
detail. I think my hon. friend who just spoke pointed out the
reason for that, that this is a complicated formula and if we are
to pass this legislation beyond committee stage it is crucial
that we examine that.
I want to use this as an opportunity to point out one other
aspect, to simply note the various revenue sources that are
identified: personal income taxes, corporate income taxes, taxes
on capital corporations, general and miscellaneous sales taxes,
harmonized sales taxes, amusement taxes, tobacco taxes, motor
fuel taxes, non-commercial motor vehicle licence revenues,
commercial motor vehicle licence revenues, alcoholic beverage
revenues, hospital and medical care insurance premiums, forestry
revenues, conventional new oil revenues, conventional old oil
revenues, heavy oil revenues, mined oil revenues, light and
medium third oil revenues, heavy third oil revenues, revenues
from domestically sold natural gas, revenues from exported
natural gas, sales of crown leases, sales of reservations on oil
and natural gas lands, oil and natural gas revenues other than
those just described, mining revenues, water power rentals,
insurance premium taxes, payroll taxes, provincial local
government property taxes, race track taxes, revenues from
lottery ticket taxes, revenues from games of chance taxes,
miscellaneous provincial taxes, provincial revenues from sales of
goods and services, local government revenues from sales of goods
and services, miscellaneous local government taxes and revenues.
I think I have made my point.
A lot of taxes have been identified in this legislation. It
seems to me that it would be appropriate for us to ask the
question whether these individual taxes make sense. At the time
they were introduced I think it is fair to say there was probably
some rationale behind them. People thought they were appropriate
social or economic policy taxes.
1600
It is important now to identify each and every one of these tax
exempt areas and factor in a cost benefit analysis. What is the
cost to the taxpayer and what is the benefit? If it is not clear
that there is a benefit then these taxes should be dropped. It
is a recommendation that any fair-minded person would agree with.
Obviously I am not arguing against the principle of the bill.
The whole principle of equalization and having a level playing
field for Canadians no matter where they live in terms of access
to social programs, education, health care opportunities and
economic opportunities is absolutely crucial.
Canada is all about the Canadian family. It differentiates us
from any other countries. Whether one lives in an isolated part
of Canada, on the east coast, on the north coast, on the west
coast or in central Canada, one will have relatively the same
access to programs. That is what the country is all about. That
is what a civilized country is all about. That is what Canada is
all about. This program helps facilitate that whole idea.
Let us not be so arrogant that we think it cannot be improved.
That is what we are saying. While the principle is fundamental
to the Canadian ethic, it is imperative when the legislation
reaches committee that we determine whether this is the most
appropriate way.
I have heard my friend and others raise the point about the
Premier of Newfoundland and how it would appear that there has
been some monkeying around with this equalization bill in order
for him to say he had a balanced budget just days before the
election, which resulted in a more favourable election result.
These are the abuses of the system that if in fact they were the
case we have to find ways and means of mitigating them in the
future.
In conclusion, on behalf of the New Democratic Party I say that
we will support the bill enthusiastically at this stage of
principle, but we have many serious questions that we want to ask
in committee. We look forwarding to getting it into committee,
although not quite in this much of a hurry. We are under time
allocation which is, let us face it, an undemocratic use of the
rules of the House of Commons.
I would not want to say we can hear jack boots echoing in the
hallways just around the corner, but there is something
fundamentally wrong when the government starts muzzling Canadian
representatives, when it starts saying to the people of Canada
that it does not want to hear the view from some part of the
country because it has heard enough and wants to close the place
down. It wants to muzzle parliament. It wants to bring to an
end the democratic process. There is something fundamentally
wrong about a government that decides it has heard enough.
I remember a little while back when the Conservatives were on
that side and the Liberals were on this side. They would go into
a state of absolute hysterics every time some form of time
allocation or closure was brought in. They would stand and say
this was an element of fascism, undemocratic and un-Canadian,
that this was wrong, not right and ought not to occur. Lo and
behold there is an election and they flip across to the other
side and now they do the same thing more often.
When the Liberals said before the last election that if they
became the government they would not act like the Conservatives
did in the matter of muzzling parliament we thought they meant
less time allocation. We thought they meant less use of closure.
They meant more use of closure, more abuse of parliament.
We have to pay very close attention, as my friend said in his
presentation, and listen closely to what they are saying. When
they say they want to change parliament let us ask them if that
means improve parliament or make it less democratic so as to make
it perfectly clear in the future.
It is not with much enthusiasm that we now look forward to a
vote at the end of the day, but the sooner the bill gets to
committee and we find out some of the details, the better we will
be able to change and amend the legislation.
1605
[Translation]
Mr. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.): Madam Speaker, what a
perfect time to reply to several ridiculous statements on the
part of the opposition.
When I hear cries of persecution from the Jurassic Park Reform
Party, the shirt-rending Bloc Quebecois, or the NDP whited
sepulchres, when they know full well that the government has to
resolve the situation by March 31 so that the provinces will
have the money with which to provide services, I find their
egotistical grandstanding very hypocritical.
I am proud to be a member of this party and of this government.
Bill C-65 is further evidence of the fact that we care about the
public. We want all Canadians, wherever they live, to have
access to services. To this end, we have put forward an
equalization system that has proven itself year in year out
since it was established, in 1957.
When I hear the Bloc Quebecois say—and they do talk a great
deal of nonsense, acting persecuted and offended—“We are not
getting our fair share”, it makes me feel proud of being not
only a Liberal but a Liberal from Quebec because, once again,
not only are we going to get our fair share but, with the
improvements contained in this bill, Canadians will receive $242
million, 78% of this amount going to Quebec.
Do members want numbers? I feel in great shape.
I lost my voice last week, but I got it back.
As we know, Quebec accounts for 24% of Canada's population. Yet,
29% of all equalization payments go to Quebec. That is nearly
$1 billion, ladies and gentlemen from Quebec, and then the
separatists complain that we are not getting our fair share.
Canada is a generous country, so much so that Quebec is getting
much more out of the system than it is putting in. This money is
coming from all the provinces, and Ontario, British Columbia and
Alberta in particular. When we tell the Bloc Quebecois members
that, they get upset.
That is probably why the Bloc Quebecois is down to 38%, from
49%, in the polls today. Clearly, the Liberals are taking their
responsibilities.
Instead of complaining, the hon. member for Drummond should be
listening; it would do her good.
In 1996 and 1997, Quebec companies received 39% of all federal
government contracts and subsidies to industry for R & D. This
is extraordinary. We represent 24% of the total population but
Quebec universities received 28% of total subsidies. All the
contracts and subsidies to the universities for R & D represent
a fair amount.
Again on a regional basis, in science and technology we receive
26%. Truth will out. The separatists are moaning, the Reform
Party bunch from Jurassic Park are moaning, while we get on with
looking after the interests of the people. This is the first
time I have heard dinosaurs speak. I did not realize they
could.
The people of Quebec need to be reminded of what the
equalization payment system is. It is a system of generosity.
It is a system of equity. It is, above all, a system of
protection.
Bill C-65 will, whether our separatist friends like it or not,
give them an even larger piece of the pie. Not only a bigger
piece of the pie, but the province that gets the biggest share
among all those receiving equalization payments is Quebec, once
again. This is a good reason to stay within the Canadian
federation, since it has been demonstrated that not only does
this system work, but it is generous to all, from sea to sea.
Once again, this seems not to please the hon. members for
Drummond and Témiscamingue. I hear them weeping. The moaning
and groaning heard in the background when the truth comes as a
shock comes from the other side of the House.
Equalization is important in that it accounts for 10% of the
entire budget of Quebec. This means that that we are giving
close to $1 billion.
1610
Do not forget that 24% of the population is receiving 29% of the
transfer payments. What does all this money represent? Ten per
cent of Quebec's budget. That means that, while Bouchard is
busy with his little referendum and whines away about Quebec's
separation, we are looking out for the people of Quebec, because
we say “We are going to give you some money so you can have
services”. So while the others rattle on about Quebec's
independence, we are providing money to pay for and ensure
access to services.
While the other side goes on about “constitutionalitis”, do you
know what counts? What counts is that transfer payments are
unconditional.
The federal government hands out nearly $10 billion in total.
As I said earlier, Bill C-65 provides $242 million to Canadians,
78% of which will go to Quebec. While they go on about
“constitutionalitis” on the other side, we recognize one thing:
that this federation is showing once again, through its
generosity, that we care about the entire population.
Finally, they say “We are stuck with a PQ government in Quebec
City”. But one thing is sure: according to the latest polls,
support for the people in this government, for the federal
Liberals from Quebec, is now 49%—
Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien: Madam Speaker, on a point of order.
Mr. Denis Coderre: Oh, the member for Frontenac—Mégantic is in
a state again.
Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien: Madam Speaker, I would appreciate your
asking the member for Bourassa to withdraw his statement that we
are stuck with the government of Lucien Bouchard in Quebec City.
What we are stuck with is the member's Prime Minister but we
have not said so.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): This is part of the debate
so I am going to ask—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Denis Coderre: The truth hurts, but there is no getting
around it. While members opposite are constantly playing to the
audience—that is what they are doing—I am going to speak some hard
truths. I know that Quebeckers are very proud to be represented
by Liberal members, because they know that, instead of whining
all the time, we take their problems to the ministers and get
things done.
One thing is certain: when the MPs representing Quebec are
Liberals, the essentials get looked after, and one of those
essentials is equalization payments.
As I said, equalization is a system that has proved its worth, a
system based on generosity that protects all Quebeckers and
ensures that they have access to services.
Mrs. Pauline Picard: What about unemployed workers?
Mr. Denis Coderre: When we hear the members opposite whining, it
is obviously because the truth hurts.
Why do over 75% of Quebeckers identify with this beautiful
country called Canada? Because they have understood that, since
we have introduced social programs and equalization payments,
Canadians have enjoyed an exceptionally high standard of living,
making Canada the number one place in the world to live. This
is because of the system of equalization payments.
They cannot take that away from us. Members should get out and
visit the average person. They should get out into the real
world once in a while. If they talked to real people, they
would realize that it takes action to resolve problems.
Mrs. Pauline Picard: Not the same people as in our province.
Mr. Denis Coderre: That hurts them because, once again, Quebec
is receiving not just its fair share, but more than its fair
share. I would like to see it receiving less because, if Quebec
received less, it would mean that its economy is in better
shape.
The day Quebec receives less in the way of equalization payments
under this bill it will be because the economy is improving, not
because cuts are being made. This will be settled within three
years with a provincial election, when the Parti Quebecois is
dumped and we have Jean Charest as the premier of Quebec.
In the meantime, allow me to simply state that this bill is an
essential one, because it will make it possible, despite the
abominable administrative policies of the provincial government,
in the hospitals and in all health services, to look after the
interests of the population. We say to the people of Quebec,
for as long as there is a Liberal government in Ottawa, and for
as long as they have Liberal MPs in Ottawa to represent them,
they are in good hands and we are going to look after their
problems.
1615
[English]
Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris—Moose Mountain, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, last Saturday night was one of the few times I had the
opportunity to sit down and watch television. I watched the
performance at Maple Leaf Gardens. The players of the 1930s,
1940s, 1950s and so on were honoured. They looked back at the
achievements of the great players who gave their hearts to
Canada's national sport. They had tears in their eyes and were
so very proud of their accomplishments.
I wonder what will be the record of this government when we look
back at the 35th and 36th parliaments. The government has set a
record which is a shame to democracy. The Liberals shut down
this House 35 times in the last session. No other Government of
Canada has come near that number. The government has said 35
times that it does not need the opposition or as one of my hon.
colleagues just said, it does not even have to consult the
opposition. We are barely into the 36th parliament and the
Liberals have shut down the debate in this House 11 more times.
That is a record no government should be proud of.
It really hurts me to sit here and listen to the hon. members
opposite make certain statements almost bragging about their care
in hospitals. A growing number of people will die before they
get emergency hospital care in this country. That is not a
highfalutin statement, that is a fact. This government has come
in a total of 46 times and said it will shut this House down.
What is the record of the government? Going back to the 1930s,
the 1940s and the 1950s we had some great hockey players. What
will be the record of this government? It will be known as the
most undemocratic procedural government in the history of Canada.
Nobody can deny that.
I heard an hon. member say that the government gives out this
money with no strings attached. My question is, what is in this
bill that will prevent the government from making the same
bookkeeping manoeuvres as happened just a few months ago in the
Newfoundland election when all of a sudden it got rid of its
deficit? What is in this bill to stop that procedure? Nothing.
What is in this bill that will absolutely ensure that the
government does not intervene during the life of this bill to
pull strings just to suit itself? Absolutely nothing.
The government has had five years to come up with this, not five
weeks and not five months. And today it has moved closure on a
bill which has not really had any discussion in this House. That
is Liberal democracy. This is not good planning. The one thing
it does show Canadians is that this is government arrogance at
its worst. Most people on this side of the House have not had an
opportunity to provide input on the bill. This practice is very
dangerous. It is a growing practice opposite and an extremely
dangerous practice for any government in a democratic society to
use.
What will happen if closure is exercised as much in the next
four years as has been done in the past four years? There will
be no point in any member of the opposition even sitting here,
absolutely none.
There will be no point in members getting on their feet and
debating an issue because the government will say it has the
right to use this procedure and it is going to use it. I heard
that this afternoon. And use it the Liberals have done.
Forty-six times they have said “The opposition does not count.
We are not going to listen to them. We are not even going to
have a debate on it”. That is where we are at with this bill.
1620
If equalization works, why are there still seven have not
provinces? I draw attention to my own province. It is rather
interesting. A member of my family recently had a commercial
trucker haul two loads of grain to the terminal. His bill for
the trucking was in excess of $500. The amount of money taken
off was over $1 a bushel for freight. When we analysed it we
found that in my province we probably pay more money to the
government opposite in federal excise fuel tax per capita than
any other province. I heard the only member of that party from
my province say that we will not get any more back from the
federal excise tax because we are a have not province.
The rationale the government uses when it takes out millions of
dollars is simply “We cannot give back even 20% of the excise
taxes taken out of the province because it is a have not
province”. That is the rationale being used.
I watch as our highways go to pieces. The rural roads are being
completely ruined. After the millions of dollars the federal
government has taken out, what guarantee does this bill give? At
any given time a minister could decide that 48% of all the
federal excise tax will be spent in a region of Canada and the
people who really need the roads will get 3%. This bill does not
correct that deficit and the Liberals bring about closure so we
cannot have a debate on it.
Because of the policies of this government and because it told
the people we had to get rid of this freight rate and so on,
people are leaving my province like never before. They are
saying that this government continues to tax them and the amount
of money they are getting in return is not equal in any way.
Three per cent has been the most in the last four years.
Will this bill ultimately stop political patronage? Every
member on the government side of the House says no. What they
are saying is “We will use this bill and we will use these
payments the same way as we have used them in the past. We will
use them to throw money into any region of Canada we want to, as
long as we can buy money with that money that is going out”.
That is what has happened and that is what is going to continue
to happen.
This bill is more complex than the government admits. This bill
is going to committee and we know what will happen in committee.
The bill will pass all the way through. Opposition members will
have motions but they will not be heard. We might as well tear
our papers up now because the government is on the same old
course it has been on 43 times before: shut down the opposition;
shut down any criticism; “let us decide where we can put the
money the most”.
I found out from reading the paper that there is a little bit of
skulduggery going on like there was on the toll highway in New
Brunswick. Somebody is going to be bidding on highway 407 in
Ontario. Has anyone else heard about that?
It is these types of things. When my friends from the maritimes
stand up to discuss the toll highway the government responds to
them in complete mockery.
1625
I am not very proud to stand here and say that I condemn the
government. I am not very pleased to know it has used closure 46
times. After one day of debate, it is a smack in the face to
democracy and the people of Canada should realize it.
Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I quite enjoyed the previous speaker's remarks. I have
had the opportunity to examine the debate on this legislation.
Generally speaking despite the complaints that closure is
forthcoming, the debate has been of a fairly high order.
I particularly congratulate the Reform Party because it is
touching some genuine nerves of concern. One of the concerns in
this whole concept of transfers from the federal government to
the provinces is that of giving money to the provinces with no
strings attached.
The equalization program involves $8.6 billion being transferred
to various provinces. When that is added to the Canada health
and social transfer annual payments of some $12.6 billion, the
total is $20 billion being transferred to the provinces by the
federal government.
The difficulty I have is that traditionally the federal
government has so respected provincial rights that it has not
demanded any real transparency or accountability from the
provinces in terms of how this money is spent. The idea is that
both transfers are a provincial tax subsidy. They lower the
taxes a province is required to charge in order to provide the
same standard of social and health services that might be found
across the country. The whole idea is, as we recognize in the
Constitution, that the provinces have the right and the privilege
to provide for the basic care of their citizens. There is
controversy now that suggests the federal government should not
be involved in any issues pertaining to setting standards or
ensuring the type of programs have at least a reasonable quality
all across the country.
When we come to the origin of this equalization program, it is
to give some sense that no matter where Canadians are in the
country they have the same opportunities to a minimum level of
programs. This is so we are not in a situation where people in
Newfoundland are at an enormous disadvantage in the types of
social services provided to them when compared to people in
Ontario.
We have a very peculiar situation. On the one hand we are asked
to give the transfers because we want to see national standards,
and on the other hand the instruments of transparency and
accountability are not there. We cannot be absolutely certain
that any of the provinces is using this money for the purpose
intended. It is the same for the Canada health and social
transfer. It is in the end simply a subsidy to the provincial
taxes so the provinces will not have to raise them as high as
they might ordinarily have had to and they will not have to take
the flak. The whole idea is that the federal government is there
for the provinces to blame for high taxes. We see this theme
coming from the Reform Party all the time.
The member for Portneuf who is here for this part of the debate
made the observation that Quebec is owed the money. I found that
quite amusing. He basically said “Quebec is owed the money.
Give us the money and keep giving us the money until we declare
sovereignty”. And that would be the end to that.
1630
I say to the member for Portneuf that Quebec would probably not
be a have not province if it were not for the fact that Quebec
governments over the last 20 years successively and even to a
certain extent the Liberal governments have pursued an agenda of
nationalism that has dampened investment in Quebec, particularly
in the Montreal region. Montreal was the engine of the economy.
At one time Montreal was a rival to Toronto. Since this whole
thing about sovereignty really took root in Quebec there has been
a flight of investment. It is not just a lack of investment,
there has been a flight of investment. It is no wonder that the
province of Quebec wishes to continue to receive its share of
equalization programs and its share of the Canada health and
social transfer.
Earlier the member from St. John's said that equalization
transfers should continue to come to Newfoundland even if
Newfoundland develops new resource wealth. It should continue to
get 100% equalization transfers even if it enlarges its tax base
as a result of the development of Voisey's Bay, Hibernia and
other projects in Newfoundland.
This is the same type of difficulty as what that member was
asking. He said give us our tax subsidy no matter what our
resource income is. Give it to us because we would prefer that
the federal government be blamed for charging high taxes than the
provinces. In some respects, certainly in the sense of the
Canada health and social transfer, this is precisely what we hear
in my own province of Ontario.
In a way we may be looking at this equalization program in the
form we see it for the last time. The whole of society is now
moving to a position where Canadians in every province are asking
their governments to provide a high level of transparency and
accountability so that the people of those provinces can see that
the money is being spent wisely and well.
The reason this is very significant is in the context of the
recent social union talks, ten premiers signed a letter with
respect to how health spending would be undertaken. The key
element of those negotiations was the principle that if the
provinces were to receive money for social and health programs
from the federal government the provinces should be in control of
the programs. But the provinces had to undertake to put in
instruments of transparency and accountability so that all
Canadians, including Canadians in those provinces, could see that
the money regardless of where it is coming from is spent on the
programs it is intended for.
I see one of the members of the Bloc Quebecois shaking his head.
I point out that the province of Quebec is to be one of the
provinces best able to meet this requirement because that
province happens to have one of the best freedom of information
acts of any province. There is no reason why the member should
shake his head because it is precisely the type of program he
should support. If I had my way I would like to see the federal
government adopt some of the provisions that exist in Quebec with
respect to privacy and access to information.
There is no reason why Quebec or any other province should be
opposed to better transparency in the application of equalization
payments. If we are to transfer $8.6 billion a year or $12.6
billion, a sum total of $20 billion, I agree with my Reform
members opposite that we should be calling for better levels of
transparency. Perhaps it is a little premature right now because
this legislation has to go forward in order to get the money in
train.
1635
This bill is not cast in iron. There are opportunities two or
three years from now to look at it again and to make amendments
that require better levels of transparency and accountability.
All of us on all sides of the House and speaking for all
Canadians would agree that is what is required.
Mr. Mike Scott (Skeena, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I appreciated
the comments of my friend in the Liberal benches. I am always
interested in hearing his comments. He usually has a very
erudite way of putting things. He had some valid points to make.
I am very disappointed that we are dealing with time allocation.
Even with a government that has a legislative agenda bereft of
ideas and initiatives, it is beyond us to understand why it needs
the hammer of time allocation to ram this thing through
parliament without proper debate. One can only assume that it
does not want any more scrutiny on this bill than it absolutely
has to because it is afraid of what Canadians will think of it.
Today my colleagues have talked at length about a flawed process
that has led to a flawed deal. This is not just about a flawed
process right now, it is a process that goes back to the
beginning of the whole notion of equalization and how the formula
for equalization was to be drawn up and used.
For example, when I was elected in 1993 one of the first private
member's bills I brought to the House of Commons was a bill that
would require that revenues based on hydroelectric sales be
included in the equalization formula and calculations. Those are
not included. Some provinces, for example my province of British
Columbia, the province of Quebec and other provinces, derive
significant revenues from hydroelectric sales. That is not
included in the equalization formula. Those revenues often flow
directly into the coffers of the provincial government. As we
know, many provincial governments own many hydroelectric
installations. I cannot believe the Government of Canada would
not take into account this massive influx of revenues based on
hydroelectric sales.
As many of my colleagues have pointed out, the cost of
production in many provinces is not taken into account. For
example, in my province of British Columbia the cost of
production in tree harvesting is not taken into account. What
this leads to is a distortion based on this convoluted formula
that is all about political manipulation and delivering political
objectives. It has very little to do with true equalization.
The New Democratic government in British Columbia is in the
process of taking B.C. from a have province to a have not
province as we speak. So I have to be a little careful. We may
be in need of some equalization in British Columbia one of these
days unless we do something about that government.
The current equalization formula is full of inherent
contradictions and inconsistencies. This delivers a distorted
and easily manipulated formula which invites political
interference. We have seen that recently. My colleagues have
been referring to it all day. We saw it with the Government of
Newfoundland and the things that took place prior to the last
election in Newfoundland. There is no doubt or question that
succeeding federal governments have used equalization as a
political lever to gain political advantage in different parts of
the country at different times. Because it has been used as a
lever of political interference and political advantage, it is
inherently unfair.
The overall effect is really unfair for most ordinary Canadians.
Equalization is reflected in provincial tax rates. Have not
provinces can maintain lower tax rates than have provinces and
still deliver the same services to their citizenry. Because
lower tax rates benefit high income earners the most, the net
effect of equalization under the Liberals is that poor families
in rich provinces subsidize rich families in poor provinces.
1640
I will repeat that because I think it is a really important
point. Poor families in rich provinces subsidize rich families
in poor provinces which is exactly the opposite effect that
equalization is supposed to bring about, I submit.
Government interventionist programs, in particular where they
are not well thought out or not properly rationalized, tend to
have unintended consequences. Let us call it the law of
unintended consequences. These almost always are unfair.
If we think of it, a poor family somewhere in Ontario, British
Columbia or Alberta is subsidizing a rich family somewhere in one
of the other seven provinces. That is an unintended consequence
of this bill. It is inherently unfair but it is what comes when
we have a politically manipulated, artificial equalization system
that is there largely for political ends and purposes rather than
for a real attempt at equalization of incomes across Canada.
After decades of unfairness and the unintended consequences that
I have talked about, because this policy has been in place for
decades, we would think the government would be willing to look
at a new idea, something different, something that completely
breaks away from the past because the past is demonstrated as a
failure over and over again. But no, the government cannot. It
stands with its back toward the future, gazing serenely at the
failed policy fields of the past and it thinks if it could just
tinker with it a little, if it could move these few words over
here and change that clause over there, it would somehow turn
this all around and make it fair, make it equitable and make it
work.
Frankly, I think that is the main reason why the government does
not wish to have any more scrutiny or debate in the House than it
has to with time allocation. It does not legitimately want to
have the average Canadian taxpayer exposed to its own failures.
I suggest that it is these kinds of government interventions
that are inherently unfair, that are premised on political
advantage and not on truly trying to do the right thing which
lead to divisions in this country. It is one of things that
drove me to politics. I was annoyed by the continued
manipulation of the federal government and how that affected me
as a taxpayer in British Columbia and how it affected my family,
my friends and my co-workers, how it affected all British
Columbians. It was one of the reasons I got into politics.
I never had any intention of being here. I never had a lifelong
wish to be a member of parliament. I never graduated from high
school with a burning passion and desire to be a politician. I
came here because of this kind of nonsense.
I cannot for the life of me understand why the Liberals just do
not get it. They just do not want to face reality. They just do
not want to face the fact that what they have cobbled together
years and years ago, tinkered with and played with over decades
is not working and is driving Canadians to distraction. It has
driven me to politics. It is the kind of policy that is in part
responsible for the creation of the Reform Party of Canada.
I would argue that the Liberal government has not demonstrated
any capacity for change. I do not believe that with this
administration we will see any new ideas come forward.
It has a legislative agenda that is almost barren. Yet it does
not want to give it full and proper debate in the House of
Commons.
1645
When the Reform Party forms government and we have a Reform
administration, we will have real change to equalization so that
the provinces that are really in need of equalization will get
it. We will not end up with the ludicrous situation where seven
out of ten provinces are called have not provinces. I suggest
that is patently ridiculous.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): It is my duty, pursuant to
Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be
raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the
hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst, Employment Insurance; the hon.
member for Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, Royal Canadian Mounted
Police; the hon. member for Burnaby—Douglas, East Timor; the hon.
member for Vancouver East, Poverty; the hon. member for Wild
Rose, Aboriginal Affairs.
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I was not
intending to speak this afternoon, but with the inanities—there
is no other word for it—put forward by some of my colleagues,
no doubt in good faith—I would not cast aspersions on their
good faith—I must rise and correct a number of things. This
debate could be very technical, but the remarks that have been
made are not technical but demagoguery.
Among other things, they are saying that Quebec would not be in
a situation of having to receive transfer or equalization
payments if its economy were in a better state. And then,
without further explanation, just like that, they say “Well,
that will come later, once sovereignty has been gotten rid of”.
The Canadian Confederation was born in 1867, 132 years ago.
Quebec was born 400 years ago. In the 132 years since
Confederation, Quebec has never been as rich as Ontario. It is
not alone in that. The maritimes, the Atlantic provinces were
flourishing financially some 100 years ago.
Institutions in Halifax, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island
were doing well. But the decision making centres moved to
Ontario, as if by magic, by some miracle, and Toronto started
expanding.
So, why is this?
Is it because the people of Toronto, the people of Ontario, are
particularly smart and those in the Atlantic provinces and
Quebec less so? Is it because we are not good at business? Is
it because we have not been blessed with Ontarians' special
know-how? Absolutely not.
It is because the federal system in which we live has
deliberately and systematically made sure that the rules favour
Ontario.
I will give a very simple example, one mentioned several times
by the Prime Minister here in the House: calls for tender are
designed to favour the lowest bidder.
So, when the government does most of its buying here in Ottawa
and Ontario, naturally the closest suppliers have a better
chance of putting in the lowest bid.
How could someone from St. John's, Newfoundland, bid on
supplying office furniture here in Ottawa? There are all the
transportation costs to factor in. But the folks in St. John's,
Newfoundland, pay taxes just like us. The federal government
uses these taxes to give Ontario businesses a leg up in the
manufacture of goods or the delivery of services. That is the
fact of the matter.
1650
The so-called poor provinces are not poor because the people who
live there are less innovative, inventive, entrepreneurial,
courageous or intelligent; they are poor because the system
siphons off money to the centre of this nation, of this
confederation, or in others words here to Ontario, and
compensates for this by paying out, as a sort of apology,
transfer payments and equalization payments. Our money has been
stolen—stolen is a big word—our money has been made off with and
taxed, and instead of getting it back in the form of goods and
services purchased, we get it back in the form of kind
generosity, charity, transfer payments.
Transfer payments are not charity, it is a return of the taxes
we have paid, which ought to have come back to us in the form of
job creation but instead take the form of payments to the
government in order to provide services to the population.
There is something seriously wrong here. My colleague here
pointed out that contracts are being awarded in Ontario without
bidding, up to $150,000 a shot. This is a considerable amount
of money, which would enable businesses in the Atlantic
provinces, in Quebec and elsewhere—the prairie provinces for
instance—to get people working with the tax money that they pay,
instead of seeing it go to pay for federal propaganda.
Mr. Denis Coderre: You are opposed to mobility.
Mr. Pierre de Savoye: When the hon. member for Bourassa singles
out the sovereignist movement as one of the causes of our
economic problems, he is totally wrong.
For several years—between 1985 and 1993 or 1994—Premier Robert
Bourassa had control of Quebec's destiny. His was a federalist
Liberal government. In the course of that period, Mr. Bourassa
managed to cut jobs in Quebec by a net figure of 1,000 jobs. On
the other hand, when the PQ government came to power, first
under Mr. Parizeau and now with Mr. Bouchard, it created over
100,000 jobs in a shorter period of time.
The problem is structural. It arises from the fact that the
Canadian federation is based on the impoverishment of the
provinces surrounding Ontario, with Ontario getting the biggest
slice of the pie. It has been that way for 130 years, it
continues, and so long as we remain in this system, there is no
way out.
So, it is time to stop telling us that transfer payments are
charity. All we want is what we are entitled to, nothing more,
nothing less. But the bottom line is that the only way to put
an end to this dispute, this gross misunderstanding, is for
Quebec to acquire its sovereignty and have full control over its
entire economy.
[English]
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
member of the Reform Party who spoke previously said that revenue
from hydro power is not equalized and is not included in the
equalization formula. Once again the member is wrong and the
party is wrong. It is included in both those ways.
I have a couple of comments for my colleague from the Bloc. We
on this side have certainly stressed that anyone who knows
anything about the equalization program knows that it is not a
form of charity. This equalization program, through which moneys
are transferred from parts of the country that are technically at
that particular time so-called have provinces to the other parts,
is designed to make the country more efficient. It is not a form
of charity.
As I have said earlier today and as others have said, there are
all sorts of flows from one province to another province.
British Columbia benefits from the maritimes. The maritimes
benefit from British Columbia. Saskatchewan benefits from
Newfoundland. Newfoundland benefits from Saskatchewan and so on.
It is not a form of charity.
1655
With respect to the Bloc member's remarks about Ontario and
places on the periphery of Ontario, I heard him say that in some
way people asked for tenders on contracts and the nearer bidders
had some great advantage. There are parts of Ontario which are a
two day drive by truck, if it is a truck type contract, from
where we stand today or a day and a half drive from Toronto. The
main population of the province of Quebec is a five hour drive
from Toronto and an hour and a half or a two hour drive from
Ottawa.
On this business of where is the periphery, if we think in some
way where the centre of gravity of the population of Canada is,
it is in southern Quebec and southern Ontario. If people have
concerns about being on the periphery perhaps they are elsewhere.
Those things are beside the point.
I remind members and people watching the debate that what we are
discussing today is the equalization program, the program under
which moneys each year are transferred from some parts of the
country to other parts. This equalization program is one of the
cornerstones of the way we share wealth in Canada and of the ways
in which we make Confederation work.
We are debating it now because every five years the way we do
this is subject to major review. That review involves all the
players, all the provinces, whether they be have or have not. In
this case the discussions have been going on for two years and
the decisions have to be made by March 31. We are doing it now
with a view to establishing what this program should be like this
year and for the next five years. It has to be done by March 31,
which is why we are going through this trouble.
The thing that shocks me is that I hear literally combined
opposition from the Reform Party and the Bloc. It concerns me. I
think there should be criticism. That is the purpose of the
debate. We should air all these issues. Members come from every
part of the country. They have had the opportunity to talk to
their provincial colleagues and hear what they think and what
they have said during the two years of negotiation. They can
come to the House and present those views.
What I sense is that we have here two parties that are not
interested in the effective running of Confederation. I think
that is because they underestimate the nature and the strength of
the wonderful country we live in and the way that it functions.
What we have is unique. Perhaps there is one other jurisdiction
which could be compared to it. We have the strongest
decentralized democracy in the world. We have strong, however we
define strong, provincial governments and regional governments.
Even our territorial governments are becoming stronger and
stronger year by year, giving their people a voice in their
regions and in the country as a whole.
This decentralized democracy, our Confederation, is one of our
great strengths. It is based on all sorts of things. One is our
Constitution. Another is constant flows in federal-provincial
relations. At the present time we have the social union, an
agreement to which the premiers and the Prime Minister have just
agreed. It is the latest round in how we should run
Confederation in those particular respects.
I like the fact that mobility was emphasized this time. There
are advantages to having regional governments, but that should be
balanced against having proper flows of students, workers and
others between different parts of the country. There are huge
benefits from Confederation.
The regions can benefit from the strength of the whole. A
recent very simple example of that is that the federal government
has just put every elementary school and high school on the
Internet, many years before that same situation is achieved in
the United States.
1700
I accept the fact that elementary and high schools are under the
jurisdiction of the provinces and territories. No one objects to
the fact that the only government in the country that could very
quickly modernize our schools and get them onto the Internet is
the federal government.
That is an example of the parts benefiting from the whole. The
resources of the whole can be brought to bear on this small but
very important thing in an area by the way of traditional
provincial jurisdiction.
The whole can also benefit from the parts. In some ways the
members from Quebec, for example, describe the equalization as
charity and feel somehow beholden to the centre, but the flows
are in both directions.
In this country we had the huge advantage when health care came
in of having one province, Saskatchewan, that had implemented a
universal health care program, had run and tested it. I have no
doubt it made mistakes and modified it so that when the whole
country came to the idea it might want a health care system all
it had to do within its own jurisdiction was look at one part for
a working model already tested that the whole country could take.
We know, despite the problems there have been in recent years,
the success that health care program has been. I suggest there
are many other examples of the whole benefiting from the parts
and I can discuss those at another time.
This equalization program is one of the cornerstones of this
country. It has played a major role in defining our wonderful
federation. The equalization ensures that all provinces have the
resources needed to provide reasonably comparable services to
Canadians no matter where they live. My colleagues have stressed
that.
Equalization is an unconditional federal payment. Once the
money is transferred the provinces can use it any way they wish.
Given the time constraints, that this must be decided by the end
of March, I urge all members of the House to support this
legislation.
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, we
are getting close to the end of this debate today because
unfortunately we are experiencing time allocation by this
government. This is the 46th time the government has time
allocated a bill in this place since I have been here, 46 times
it has said debate is a bad thing in this place, it must be shut
down.
It can be seen why. It is such a small bill involving only $43
billion in transfers to the provinces over the next five years.
The government has had five years to prepare for this bill. What
has it ended up with? It has no draft legislation to show to us
ahead of time, no academic input into potential changes or
improvement, no committee investigations or public input as to
whether people want to keep the old system or the new system or
some changed version. There has been no debate in the House.
There will be $43 billion in transfers over the next five years
and we are allowed one day of debate. That is a shame and it is
a shame we will come to the end of this debate. People watching
should know that at the end of today we will have a vote on this
and it will be rammed through. My prediction is that the
Liberals will win the vote, as they usually do, and they will say
no debate because that is the way it should be.
It reminds me of a debate in British Columbia a few years ago
when Bill Bennett went on the road. Colleagues from British
Columbia will remember. When he went on the road the rallying
cry was not a dime without debate because the government had
arrived at this stage where the arrogance set in to the point
where it said it is only $43 billion, let us have one day of
debate and shut it down. That is what we are experiencing here
today.
1705
Equalization is an important issue. It is, as has been
mentioned on both sides of the House, a cornerstone issue for
many Canadians and many provinces that want to see some semblance
of ensuring the people who live in a province that is going
through some tough times or that does not have the revenue its
needs deserve some chance of equalization so they can enjoy
something close to the same services other Canadians enjoy. I
have no problem with that. That is not a bad theory if that is
the initial theory you are going to head off on.
I only have this 10 minute slot to talk, but not about the
equalization payments per se because that is not really the big
problem, that is not what gets under people's skin so much. The
problem is that it is all the other inequities, the
inequalization payments that occur day after day in the
departmental spending and in the program spending of this
government.
Why is it that when the fishermen are denied the opportunity to
fish on the east coast the government puts together the TAGS
program, a social benefit program amounting to $3 billion for
east coast fishermen, but on the west coast the federal
government does not even allocate 10% of what is allocated on the
east coast? That is called an inequalization program. It is not
equal for both fishermen. Both fishermen are unemployed, both
are in their coastal communities, both need some assistance to
adjust to whatever the new reality of the fishery minister might
be. Instead what happens? Ten per cent for B.C. compared to
Atlantic Canada.
What happens when the government allocates the CIDA contracts in
this country? CIDA contracts are not part of the equalization
program but why is it that when the CIDA contracts come through,
British Columbia gets 3% of those contracts although it has 10%
or 11% of the population of the land? The CIDA contracts are
worth hundreds of millions of dollars a year and the majority of
them go in this case to the province of Quebec. What is going
on? Why does 3% go to B.C. while the lion's share goes to
Quebec? That is not part of equalization. That is an inequality
payment.
That is why from the beginning the Reform Party has maintained
in its policies that programs should go through a regional
fairness test. That is not so the west gets more, heaven forbid,
but so that each region knows it will be dealt with fairly in
terms of social programs and other government spending. It will
not be allocated based on who you voted for last but on regional
fairness. That is the way it should be done. That is true
equality.
I went to a hockey game a while ago. There was a big brouhaha
from the government. It was trying to decide how it could help
out the hockey teams in this land. It is interesting. In one way
the government did help. It gave some direct assistance to the
Ottawa Senators and its establishment and to the Montreal
Canadiens. They got Canadian logos and Canadian government
advertising in their arena. It cost hundreds of thousands of
dollars a year. But where did they not get any help? Calgary,
Edmonton and Vancouver. Not a single sou went to help out with
any advertising. Again, is it fair that one group gets it and
another does not? It is not fair. It should go through a
regional fairness test. If you are going to promote the
Government of Canada in hockey arenas and if you can believe
anybody thinks that is a good idea, then certainly it is as good
an idea in Vancouver as it is in Ottawa or Montreal.
The federal government spent to $2 million to promote Canadian
athletes going to Nagano. I do not think that was a bad idea. We
should be proud of our athletes. I do not mind. I would rather
give the money to the athletes but even so we promote the
Olympics. Why were over half the ads placed only on French
language television stations in Quebec? Why do half the ads go
there when only a quarter of the population is there? How much
did my region of the country get? Where is the regional fairness
test? It is not there. It is part of the inequality of the
federation that is not addressed.
I do not even want to get started on what happened to CFB
Chilliwack plans in my own riding.
1710
Why is it that land is frozen in a state of suspended animation
while fairly new buildings start to crumple? It has been four
years now since they have turned the heat off and walked away.
No development can take place. No industrial work, no sale to
local developers, no land to the natives, nothing. It is just
frozen.
Why? It is in British Columbia. After all, we do not even have
an land forces base in the entire province of British Columbia.
Regional fairness would dictate that British Columbia should
somehow be just shunted aside.
The problem with the equalization payments is not the
equalization payments but all the other boondoggles that the
federal government is involved with. Why is it that when we
dealt with the child pornography case a week ago in this place,
the government said the child pornography case only applies in
British Columbia. The law is still really good in the other nine
provinces. So if the pedophiles go free it will only be in
British Columbia. So don't worry, it is only in British
Columbia. That is part of the attitude on that side of the
House.
They came two weeks ago to my riding on a western fact finding
mission headed up by somebody from Winnipeg, I think, which to
them is as far west as one can go. They do not realize that the
Rocky Mountains are not the end of the country, that there is
actually another province there. They came out to my riding and
said the following what about the future of the CFB Chilliwack
lands?. The response was does your member of parliament know
that it has been closed? This was said by the secretary of state
for women's issues. They said to her in a very kind way yes, he
does know. Yes, he has been fighting for fairness for our region
the same as any other.
When the Liberals come to town and say by the way, sorry about
this, we didn't even know it was closed, people in British
Columbia are saying that the issue is not just about
equalization, it is about the unequal treatment of some portions
of country often based strictly on who one votes for. That is
not the way to run a country and not the way to bring regional
fairness. It is the way to create inequality. If that was the
object, the Liberals have succeeded masterfully.
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to debate this
very important issue.
Certainly the residents of Waterloo—Wellington and indeed
Canadians no matter where they live have a great interest in this
matter.
The equalization program is an underlying value of what it means
to be Canadian. It is a cornerstone of the country, one which
people recognize and rely on in terms of what it means to be
Canadian. It is a sense of sharing, caring and ensuring fairness
across Canada.
Over time and through history the equalization program has
indeed played a major role in Canada and it can be argued has
played a major role in defining our federation. I suspect and
Canadians know our federation is stronger as a result, our
federation is better off as a result and our people have
benefited as a result. As a result of that, Canada has gained
tremendously and I think that is important to know.
I also want all members to know that it is important that we act
today to deal with this matter. We have had a deadline to meet
and as a result are using time allocation to ensure that we meet
that deadline of March 31.
I am not surprised the Reform Party and the Bloc do not support
the equalization program. It is not surprising because both
parties, quite frankly, do not want to see the federation work.
Rather, both are committed to seeing that Canada does not work.
That is really a shame but it is the reality of what we have here
not only in the House of Commons but in Canada.
The equalization program ensures that all provinces have the
resources they need to do what Canadians, wherever they live,
want in terms of reasonable and comparable services.
This is done so that hopefully they do not have to resort to
higher levels of taxation than in other provinces. While this
does not always happen it certainly is a goal and a laudable one
at that.
1715
I should also point out that the equalization program is an
unconditional federal payment. This enables provinces to use the
equalization program as they see fit and as they wish. That too
is an important point.
Seven provinces receive the equalization program: Newfoundland,
Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec,
Manitoba and Saskatchewan. They all qualify for this very
important payment. That is something that bodes well for the
country as a whole.
The proposed legislation, which is excellent I might point out,
will renew the equalization program for a five year period,
beginning April 1, 1999 to March 31, 2004. The basic structure
of the equalization program will however remain as it, but the
bill before us includes changes to ensure that it continues to
measure the ability of provinces to raise revenues as accurately
as possible.
These improvements will increase the cost of the program by an
estimated $242 million. These changes too will be phased in over
the five year period. As a result of extensive consultation,
which I believe underscores the fact that our federation works,
the bill will change the ceiling and the floor provisions to
protect against greater fluctuation. This was done
co-operatively and in a fashion and spirit in keeping with
improving the federation for the benefit of all Canadians
wherever they may live in this great country of ours.
The bill renews the provincial personal income tax revenue
guarantee program for the same five year period I spoke about.
This is a key and important provision. It protects those
provinces participating in the tax collection agreements from any
major revenue reductions that may be caused during the course of
a year by changes in federal tax policy, as an example. This is
worthy of our attention and clearly something in the best
interest of the participating provinces.
Finally I want to outline that the budget tomorrow will provide
new estimates of equalization. We all know that in the 1998
budget it was projected that equalization would amount to $8.5
billion in 1998-99. Official estimates showed an increase to
$8.8 billion as released in October.
[Translation]
The federal government recognizes that the country we live in is
continually changing. That is the reality of the Canadian
community. It is also a fact that we must change if we are
going to survive as a society. The federal government will
continue to watch over the interests of all Canadians.
[English]
I want to simply say by way of conclusion that the legislation
recognizes the importance of working co-operatively and in the
best interest of all Canadians wherever they may live in Canada.
It is legislation of great importance which underlies our
commitment to making Canada work for all our citizens. It is
worthy of support and I would certainly ask all members of the
House to support it accordingly.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, today we are debating Bill C-65, an act to amend the
Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act.
Any time we hear the word fiscal it means money. When we talk
about money we mean our money as Canadian taxpayers. Governments
have no money of their own but they certainly make free with the
money that we work to earn. This involves large amounts of the
money earned by hard working Canadian taxpayers. That is the
reason it is a very important debate.
However, the government has decided to cut off debate on the
spending of billions of dollars of taxpayers money under the
bill. For some reason it feels that a mere day of debate is more
than sufficient to explore the ins and outs of a very large
expenditure of money. Naturally the opposition disagrees
vehemently with this as well it should.
1720
The whole reason we are here is to enact laws and to administer
the affairs of the country for the benefit of Canadians. It is
very difficult to do that job when government keeps cutting off
debate and saying that it will do whatever it will do. It does
not really want to be confused with any facts or any suggestions
for improving the course of action that it has already decided
on.
This topic not only is very important because it will be
spending a great deal of money that we worked to earn. It is
also at the very heart of our federal system. It involves the
transfer of financial resources from the federal treasury, which
is filled up by our taxes, to the provinces to allow them to deal
with their responsibility to provide social programs and services
to Canadians.
These transfers not only include the equalization payments but
also the payments to support health care, education, EI payments
from the EI fund, regional grants and a host of smaller programs.
The total transfers from the equalization component are close to
$9 billion a year. With all the other transfers to support
social programs it is at least three times that. We are talking
about a very important element of the way our federation works.
One of the best resources I have found is a booklet by Paul
Boothe, Professor of Economics at the University of Alberta,
called “Finding A Balance: Renewing Canadian Fiscal
Federalism”. This was produced in October 1998, just a few
months ago. It is very current and a very scholarly and lucid
examination of the whole area of financial transfers within the
federation. I commend it to anyone who is trying to understand
this complex and difficult area.
Equalization is an important principle which makes the
federation work. It is a principle to which the official
opposition, the Reform Party, is committed. I make this point
clearly and unequivocally. Those who propose improved
administration of equalization are often attacked—and we saw
that this afternoon in the House—by those who lack the vision
and courage to make needed improvements.
It is because the principle of equalization is so vital to a
vigorous Canadian federation that we in parliament must ensure
co-operation in a fair and effective process. Equalization
directly affects the security of important social programs such
as health care and education. Equalization directly affects the
level of income left in the hands of Canadians and Canadian
parents and families to meet the needs of our children.
Here is a little background on equalization. Before
Confederation most of the provincial revenues came from customs
and excise taxes. With Confederation it became the exclusive
purview of the federal government to levy customs and excise
taxes. Therefore the provinces did not have the money they
needed to provide key services to their citizens that they were
responsible to provide under the Constitution.
Under an important recommendation from the Rowell-Sirois
commission in 1939 it was agreed that the federal government
would institute a system of national adjustment grants for poorer
provinces and that general transfers would be made to ensure that
the provinces had enough revenue to fulfil their constitutional
obligations without undue taxation. These formal equalization
payments began in 1957.
As many speakers on this side of the House have put forward, the
transfers in support of services to Canadians have become an
increasingly complex patchwork impacted by a multitude of diverse
political and economic purposes. The results, the transparency
and the understandability of the whole area of the federation
have become unnecessarily unfair and complex.
1725
Today, for example, the provinces have access to per capita
revenues equal to the potential average of five provinces to
raise taxes, and this is based on 33 different tax bases. With
that simple explanation we see how complex this whole area has
become.
To make equalization work clearly and equitably every province
would need the same kind of tax system, but of course that is not
the case. They are all different. What the federal government
has done, what the legislation does, is impose an artificial
hypothetical tax system trying to blend tax systems in 10
different provinces on 33 different levels and obviously a real
mess results.
The auditor general has criticized the whole process. In his
1997 report he looked at only one of the 33 elements, property
taxes which raises almost a quarter of the equalization payments.
He pointed out that property tax rates vary from province to
province. Property assessment methods vary even between
municipalities, let alone provinces. Property assessments are
infrequent and done in different years. The auditor general said
that it was just a guessing game.
In 1997 the finance department acknowledged this problem which
was brought before it by the auditor general. It promised to do
something about the problem. In fact here is a quote of a
promise it made to the auditor general:
Here we are smack dab in the middle of the “current
equalization renewal process”. Does the bill say anything about
the matter of property taxes and their calculation and how they
are factored into the equalization payment? No, it does not.
Yet Liberal members opposite have the colossal nerve to stand in
this place and say that this is a wonderful piece of legislation,
that it is just ticking along fine. After a few hours of letting
the opposition bleat about it, it will go forward exactly as they
envisioned, even though they have not kept a key promise made to
the auditor general.
A number of such problems in the equalization process are not
addressed in the legislation. My colleagues have been very
eloquent in pointing out some of the anomalies and the ridiculous
variations and variables in the way the whole program is
delivered on behalf of Canadians. It is a key program. It is
important to the proper working of our federation.
I urge the House to examine the systemic changes, the changes to
our equalization system, needed to deal realistically with the
tax system and the difficulties that have been pointed out. Let
us build a better country through reasoned debate on these issues
rather than simply sweep them under the closure carpet and move
on with mere tinkering.
Mr. Murray Calder (Dufferin—Peel—Wellington—Grey,
Lib.): Madam Speaker, there seems to be a problem with
members of the Reform Party on the other side of the floor. Of
course there is always a problem with them. We are talking about
social responsibility and every once in a while we have to
redefine and describe for the Reform Party what the word social
means.
Equalization payments are one of the cornerstones of Canada.
This country is a family. The children of the family that are
better off than the ones that are not take care of each other.
That is one of the things that has made this country unique
worldwide.
1730
I listened to today's debate and a number of points need to be
clarified. Questions were asked by members on the other side of
the House which I want to do my best to answer.
I have heard over and over again why time allocation? One
question that would lead into that is what does the bill do? The
legislation amends two programs covered by the Federal-Provincial
Fiscal Arrangements Act, equalization and the provincial personal
income tax review guarantee. Both programs expire on March 31,
1999. Today is February 15, which means a month and a half from
now we have to have something in place because these other two
programs are going to expire. There is a good reason right off
the bat. Also, our flag is 34 years old today. This is the
importance of what we are talking about.
The bill before us is designed to extend the programs from April
1, 1999 to March 31, 2004. We are basically establishing a five
year review. There is nothing wrong with that. Things change in
this country on a yearly basis, so why would we not have
legislation in place that we can renew and review on a regular
basis? Five years seems to be a very good basis to set it on.
That will allow the equalization payments to continue to be made
and revenue guaranteed payments made as required.
There are a number of points that the bill proposes to change in
the equalization programs. I will consider the three most
important points.
One ensures that the changes in the measurement of fiscal
capacity, that is the provinces' ability to take and raise
revenue, are provided for in the renewal and will be phased in
over a five year period. It also amends the floor and ceiling
provisions that protect provincial and federal governments from
large and unexpected changes in the equalization entitlements.
Finally, it will amend and clarify the list of provincial
revenues considered in measuring eligibility for equalization
payments. That is in addition to the amendments to the act. The
regulation will change and make adjustments to the measurement of
the provinces' relative revenue raising capacity from different
tax sources.
Another question I heard was how did the federal government
decide on the contents of the equalization renewal package? This
is something the opposition should listen to. The answer is that
the federal and the provincial governments established priorities
for the renewal in early 1997. This is not just something the
federal government came up with. It is something we came up with
in conjunction with the provincial governments. It is another
example of how the government tries its best to work with all the
provinces to get the best deal possible for the whole country.
I talked about family, and that is what it is all about. This
is the government doing its best for the family of Canada.
The proposals for the changes to the equalization program will
have an anticipated cost of around $48 million in the budget year
1999-2000. That will rise to $242 million when it is fully
phased in in the budget year 2003-04. That is being put forward
after extensive review of the issues with the provinces and the
territories at the official and ministerial level.
Again, there is extensive review with the provinces and the
territories. We are not just doing this on our own. We talk to
them and find out what is the best way they think we should be
doing it and we come to a compromise.
1735
My colleague across the way from the Conservative Party just
does not understand that. He just does not get it. One of the
reasons he is in the fifth party is because he just does not get
it. If the hon. member would listen to what I am saying here, I
will try to answer some more of his questions.
Another question I have heard here in the House today is why are
the changes being phased in rather than being implemented
immediately. The phase-in of changes is proposed in order to
dampen the distributional impact across provinces over time and
also to ensure that federal and provincial fiscal planners have
sufficient time to adjust to the changes in a predictable,
manageable way. We are not going to say “There it is guys, deal
with it”; we are saying “Here it is, it is coming. This is how
we want to change this after consulting with you”. It gives the
provincial ministers of finance a chance to adjust to it. It is a
good old-fashioned family way of doing it. It is logical.
I have heard other general questions today as to how
equalization works. It seems relatively straightforward.
Equalization transfers are determined on the basis of a
legislated formula.
First, the amount of revenue that each province could raise if
it applied national average tax rates is calculated for revenue
sources that provinces and their local governments typically
levy. The program currently includes around 30 tax bases.
Second, each province's overall ability to raise revenues from
these sources is compared to that of the five provinces making up
a representative standard, an average. Those provinces are
Quebec, Ontario, and Manitoba for the member across the way.
An hon. member: The member who likes the millennium fund.
Mr. Murray Calder: That is right. And Saskatchewan and
British Columbia.
If a province's total revenue raising ability falls short of
this standard, its per capita revenues are raised to the standard
level through the federal equalization payments.
Mr. Peter Adams: I see.
Mr. Murray Calder: That is the way it is, and the member
for Peterborough understands it now.
Mr. Peter Adams: If I can understand it, anybody can.
Mr. Murray Calder: He is a Liberal and he is a very smart
MP. I can understand why he clicks into that so quickly.
If a provincial government's total revenue raising ability
exceeds the standard, it obviously does not receive the
equalization. There we have that nice flat line where the ones
that are making more, like Ontario, the industrial heartland of
Canada, to the provinces that are experiencing problems, like
Newfoundland, each one of those governments can come up with good
solid government within their province and put forward good solid
programs like all the 10 provinces in Canada do.
Another question is how do we produce new estimates of
equalization and when do receiving provinces receive payments. I
do not have enough time to go into that so I will have to leave
that to the next time we speak on this.
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): Madam Speaker,
it is very interesting to listen to the Liberals go on and on and
on trying to explain around the issue of time allocation.
The reality nonetheless is that in the 35th parliament the
Liberals used time allocation 35 times, 32 time allocation
motions and three closure motions. This is the same group of
Liberals who while on this side of the House decried this kind of
anti-democratic, dictatorial bullying tactic by the government of
the day.
1740
In this the 36th parliament, there have been 11 time allocation
motions. It is quite unconscionable. It speaks to the management
of the affairs of this House. The fact that this Liberal
government is incapable of giving the House adequate time to put
forward the concerns of the people of Canada over issues like
this one is completely unacceptable.
It is a management problem of the affairs of this House that has
created this situation. We are being bullied into voting on
second reading of this bill by 6.30 tonight. This is after only
one day in the House. After only one day we have to vote.
The expiry date was no surprise. The expiry date of March 31
has been a known quantity for five years. Why could the Liberals
not have managed the affairs of the House in such a way that we
would have had an opportunity to debate this matter perhaps last
fall or at least get it out into the open? We are not talking
about nickels and dimes here. We are talking about countless
billions and billions and billions of taxpayers' dollars.
The previous speaker, after having used the lame excuse that
there is an expiry date that has to be met as an excuse for the
time allocation, said that everything is fine because in fact
there is a government to government decision making process.
There again, that just shows the mentality of this government.
It does not realize it has a responsibility to come to this
House, to come to the members of this House.
I represent approximately 87,000 people in the southeast corner
of British Columbia. I should have a voice in this House and be
able to speak on this bill in an intelligent way on behalf of the
people in my constituency. The debate should be full and free
flowing, hopefully with the government listening and taking some
direction from the people whom I represent as I speak for them.
Instead what is going on is the Government of Canada is getting
together with Brian Tobin and his government, getting together
with Glen Clark and his government, getting together with Mike
Harris and his government, so everything is fine because the
governments have negotiated this. The reference to this place,
the reference to the House of Commons, the reference to
parliament is inconsequential. Parliament is being treated as a
rubber stamp by this government.
Mr. Stan Keyes: Oh, nonsense.
Mr. Jim Abbott: The member says “Oh, nonsense”. How
else then, if we are not being treated as a rubber stamp, does
the member explain the fact that we have had a one day time
allocation on this and debate will be chopped off?
The management of this House works on the basis that the House
leader and the government know they can whip their sheep into
line. The sheep just stand and bleat on cue and the legislation
gets through. They know that is what is going to happen.
I was very appreciative of the member from Kamloops, a long time
member of this House, an NDP member I should point out. He stood
and said that he believed in the principle of the bill. He found
a tremendous number of difficulties with the legislation but he
believed in the principle of equalization to the point that he
would recommend to his colleagues that on second reading, which
is where we are right now, the NDP vote in favour of the bill
passing to committee whereupon they could take care of the very
serious problems that are in the legislation.
I mentioned that I have a very high regard for the member, but
clearly he has a lot more faith in the parliamentary process
currently in effect as stipulated by the Prime Minister and this
government than I do. In fact, if the government is going to be
treating the House of Commons as a rubber stamp in this way, how
can we have any confidence?
1745
Let us take a look at some of the realities that have already
been mentioned by a few of my colleagues. I do not believe that
anybody has mentioned the interprovincial transfer of wealth for
example in addition to the equalization program. I will state
this again very clearly and very slowly so that the members can
understand my English. I will go one word at a time and tell
them that the Reform Party is in favour of the concept of
equalization. We do see it as being one of the distinctives of
being Canadians.
I hope all members caught that because that is a statement of
fact as to where the Reform Party is coming from.
However, to equate our rejection of Bill C-65 in principle, to
equate our rejection of the tinkering around the edges that Bill
C-65 constitutes, to our somehow not being in favour of
equalization is something that only a Liberal mind could create I
am sure.
Let us touch back on employment insurance. On employment
insurance in Canada in the so-called have provinces, people
contributing to that, the individual workers or the corporations,
for every $1 that they contribute to that they get pennies back
out. That is a statement of fact.
Newfoundlanders, on the other hand, under that program as it is
presently constituted, for every $1 that they contribute get more
than $3 back and so it is ranging down from Newfoundland, which
is the most extreme, on down. The point being that equalization
is not the only interprovincial transfer of wealth.
The major problem with this formula is that it does not take
into account all the examples that my colleagues in the Reform
Party have pointed out where there has been and continues to be a
transfer of wealth from the so-called have provinces to the
so-called have not provinces.
It has been pointed, and it is worthy to remind members, that we
have a situation, for example, in my constituency where the
average per capita income is probably significantly less than the
average per capita income of say Vancouver or Victoria just
because of the type of constituency with a rural based economy,
where we have families of four or more earning $20,000 or $30,000
a year. Those families are having money transferred to families
in Newfoundland and in some of the maritime provinces that are
earning over $100,000 a year. This is the reality of the formula
as it is presently constructed.
I know this may be the third or fourth time that I have said
this but it seems to be going over the heads of my friends on the
Liberal side. The Reform Party believes in the concept of
equalization because it is distinctive of Canadians that we do
look after each other. This is one of the things that we embrace
as a nation and certainly one of the things we embrace as a
party. However, Bill C-65 simply tinkers around the edges,
creates more confusion, creates more problems and, in effect,
creates inequality when it is called a bill on equalization.
Mr. John Bryden: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of
order.
I would like to seek the unanimous consent of the House to move
a motion to the effect that this House urge the government to
place at the Prime Minister's disposal a long range executive jet
aircraft of the Global Express type produced by Bombardier to be
available when he is called upon on short notice to represent
Canada at major national and international events.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Does the hon. member
have the permission of the House to move the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): There is no unanimous
consent.
1750
Ms. Bonnie Brown (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Human Resources Development, Lib.): Madam Speaker, Bill C-65,
which renews the equalization program, is renewing one of the
cornerstones of this country.
The equalization program has played a major role in defining the
Canadian federation. It ensures that all provinces have the
resources they need to provide reasonably comparable services to
Canadians no matter where they live.
Equalization is an unconditional federal payment. Provinces can
use it as they wish. That is a basic outline of what the
equalization bill is about but over the years and this year as in
other years many questions have been raised about the system. Let
us look at some of these questions.
Some have asked if there is not a simpler approach by which to
measure disparities among provinces. Some have suggested for
example a measure based on gross domestic product of each
province. One has to go back to the concept of the equalization
program. All provinces are to be brought up to a standard to
enable them to provide comparable services at comparable levels
of taxation.
The calculation is based on a legislated formula that models
typical provincial tax systems. This formula is called a
representative tax system. The complexity of the program arises
as a result of the complexity of provincial tax systems that are
being modelled. The representative tax system has proved to be a
reliable and stable measure of provincial fiscal capacity, a
measure that has widespread support as a fair and comprehensive
approach.
The representative tax system uses around 30 tax bases to
measure a province's relative capacity to raise revenues. It
might be possible to construct a simpler equalization formula
that works satisfactorily and the federal and provincial
governments will continue to evaluate and investigate alternative
methods.
One suggestion for a simpler approach has been to use GDP per
capita as a measure to measure the provinces' fiscal capacities.
But a great deal more research is necessary before considering an
equalization based on a new approach.
Another question is whether equalization creates disincentives
to growth. The government would respond that when a province's
ability to raise revenues increases due to growth in that
province equalization payments decline. This was how the program
was designed to work in the first place, but the equalization
program is not a disincentive to provincial economic development.
It would be difficult to imagine that a province would turn its
back on opportunities to increase incomes and jobs for its people
just because its equalization payments might decline.
The Reform Party has raised the question of whether the proposed
changes in Bill C-65 address all the recommendations on the topic
made by the auditor general. The auditor general's report
discussed the design and operation of the equalization program
and made a number of recommendations.
During the course of this renewal the federal government
discussed all these recommendations with its provincial
counterparts. Many of those recommendations are being addressed
through this bill such as those involving the resource tax bases
and the ceiling design.
But other recommendations were more complex and it is felt by
both federal and provincial governments that it needs more
research and discussion, but both levels of government will
continue this research and discussion once the program has been
renewed.
Some people have asked why not move to a ten province standard.
This program is based on five provinces. The purpose of
equalization is to ensure provinces have sufficient revenues to
provide reasonably comparable levels of services at reasonably
comparable levels of taxation.
The current five province standard fully meets the federal
government's constitutional commitment to make equalization
payments and fully achieves the intended purpose. The five
province standard was introduced after the significant volatility
in the resource sector in the 1970s. These fluctuations
generated large fluctuations in equalization entitlements.
Now the risk of volatility is lower with the five province
standard than with the ten province standard which increased the
potential for volatility.
If implemented again, the ten province standard would add
considerably to the cost of the program, an anticipated $1
billion each year.
1755
Some people are confused by the terms floor and ceiling. The
floor protects individual provinces against large declines in
their equalization payments from one year to the next. Some
provinces criticize the current floor because the protection it
offers could fluctuate by large amounts with relatively small
changes in a province's economic situation. The proposed new
floor in Bill C-65 provides a similar level of protection to the
current floor but will not be subject to the same variations
which have been criticized.
What about the ceiling? The purpose of the ceiling is to
protect the federal government from unsustainable large increases
in equalization expenditures. The current ceiling limits the
total size of the program to an amount equal to the 1992
equalization entitlements increased each year by the growth of
GDP between 1992 and the year in question.
Whenever the size of the program exceeds the ceiling the program
standard is reduced, lowering each province's entitlement. In
1998-99 the ceiling is about $10.4 billion, about $1.2 billion
higher than the entitlement. The proposed new ceiling would be
set at $10 billion in the years 1999-2000. Like the current
ceiling, it will grow in subsequent years by GDP growth rate.
Receiving provinces have argued for the removal of the ceiling.
The federal government has indicated that the ceiling is
essential to ensure the program remains affordable and
sustainable.
Some have asked why the lottery and gaming revenues base is
changing. The current measure of a province's ability to raise
revenues from this source of revenue is based solely on lottery
ticket sales in the province. However, significant changes have
occurred over the years in the lottery and gaming area. The
federal government is proposing changes to the equalization
program that will take into consideration all types of gaming
activity and their revenue. The proposed changes will recognize
provinces' abilities to raise revenues from new and rapidly
growing sources, for example casinos, video lottery terminals,
break open tickets and other games of chance.
Some have asked why the equalization formula does not take into
account the different expenditure needs. The answer is that the
federal government has undertaken a number of studies to examine
various measures of expenditure needs. Both levels of government
concluded that there were too many issues that needed to be
resolved before expenditure need could be incorporated into
equalization such as how to decide what expenditures are needed.
The federal and provincial governments will continue to study the
issues surrounding the measurement of need and the inclusion of
such measurement in equalization.
The new bill addresses most of the questions that have been
raised. It must be remembered by all members that the agreements
reached at these five year renewal periods are agreements that
have taken a long time to hammer out between federal and
provincial representatives. They have agreed. Before us in the
House now is the result of much of that work. Each amendment
reflects an agreement that has been concluded between
representatives of all levels of government. I hope the House
will respect the work our colleagues in the provincial houses
have put into this and which our own representatives have agreed
to.
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I
enter this debate from a rather different point of view. So far
we have heard all kinds of criticisms of the bill. I have some
of those to advance. But I would like to underscore the Reform
Party position that we do support the concept of equalization
payments from the richer provinces to the poorer provinces. I
underscore that we do this and the kind of reforms we are
considering in the whole business of equalization payments.
1800
It is one thing to suggest that there have been five years of
consultation among provinces, that there have been five years of
discussion about the various amendments which have found their
way into the proposed bill before the House. Whether or not that
actually happened I do not know. The important thing I do know
is that within less than 48 hours of consultation in the House
and open debate we will be forced to make a decision.
I do not know what else went on behind closed doors. We have to
accept that hon. members opposite are telling us the way things
were. One thing is also true: we in the House have a
responsibility to reflect upon those kinds of amendments and to
think carefully about them.
Lest anyone misinterpret or misrepresent what the Reform Party
stands for, let it be abundantly clear that we support
equalization payments. We would like to suggest some reforms and
changes that could be made which are not found in the current
legislation.
Reform believes in a system that is open to all Canadians and
uses a different, simpler basis for comparison. That is part of
the issue. It should be a different, simpler and a more accurate
and more honest comparison of people. Rather than micro managing
equalization, which the current legislation and program do and
what the proposed legislation maintains, we should use a simple
indicator to determine who gets what. This is called a macro
formula.
A shortfall in per capital provincial GDP as an indicator might
be a good basis for comparison that would not require arbitrary
definitions and an army of bureaucrats to apply them. That is a
fundamental issue and one that we should address very carefully.
It is this kind of thing that we should have concentrated on and
debated in the next while. It is one thing to have a bill
proposed to us, but is there nothing else that could be done?
There is a lot that could be done. Using such a macro formula
would eliminate the incentive for provinces to adjust their tax
bases in inefficient ways to qualify for more federal money. We
cannot adjust an entire GDP.
Under a single indicator system equalization would be more
focused on the provinces that need it most. It would be hard to
argue that we have seven have not provinces in Canada. Canada is
one of the richest countries in the world. That is abundantly
clear. All we need to do is look at the population figures to
see how many people have come into Canada compared to the number
of people who have left Canada. In the last 25 years there has
been no mass exodus or out-migration from Canada.
By focusing benefits more on the poorer provinces the federal
government could reduce overall taxation, leave the money in
people's pockets and thereby increase economic efficiency. That
is what we are all about. Any province that experiences reduced
payments would receive special financing to ease the transition.
These ideas are worthy of discussion. They have been discussed.
My colleague from Calgary—Nose Hill indicated that and quoted
from a particular study.
It goes on from there. I will get very specific on what has
happened. In the current situation the average Canadian family
is a net contributor of $3,500 to the federal treasury. A family
in Saskatchewan pays $2,700 and an Alberta family, more than
$6,000. On the other hand the average family in Newfoundland
gains $7,000 per year.
To reduce this kind of unfairness the Reform Party has proposed
a new Canada act. In this act we call for two basic reforms:
first, an equal treatment of all citizens with per capita grants
to provinces for shared cost programs and, second, a single
equalization grant based on a macro indicator of per capita
provincial GDP compared to per capita national GDP. If that is
the kind of focus to which we would address ourselves we would be
moving forward. We would be taking into account the changes that
have taken place in Canada and the changes that have taken place
in the world around us.
May I draw the attention of the House to a couple of things that
have happened in Canada in terms of the GDP. I want to compare
population increases and decreases to the GDP. We will look at
the last four years, 1994 to 1998.
We find that Canada had a net increase in its population of
4.35%. Newfoundland had a decrease of 5.5%, Ontario an increase
of 5.3%, Alberta an increase of 7.7%, British Columbia an
increase of 9.03%, and Yukon an increase of 5.3%. Those are the
provinces with the greater gain.
1805
Let us compare the gain relative to the GDP in those provinces.
Here is what we discovered, using the numbers for 1993 to 1997.
Prince Edward Island had an increase in its GDP of 19.9%, Ontario
an increase of 19%, Saskatchewan an increase of 23.6%, Alberta an
increase of 26.07%, and British Columbia an increase of 16.96%.
If we begin to compare the increases in GDP in this four year
period, compared with the population shifts that have taken
place, we recognize very clearly that there is an unfairness
built right into the formula which currently determines the
amount of the equalization payments. That unfairness needs to be
eliminated.
The formula is so complicated that it takes an army of
bureaucrats to compute them and it makes it almost impossible for
anybody to understand exactly how it works. I dare say a lot of
people who put forward these amendments do not recognize or
understand fully the implications that will take place in their
particular provinces and the country as a whole.
We need to recognize as well that the composition of population
has changed dramatically. We do not have the same kind of
population composition in Toronto today that existed there 20
years ago. All we need to do is look at the changes in retail
marketing that have taken place in those marketplaces to
recognize those that have not changed with the times are
experiencing very serious financial difficulties at this time.
That is exactly the kind of thing we as a country need to
address. We need to recognize that the composition of our
population has changed. It has shifted from one part of the
country to another part of the country.
We in British Columbia are now experiencing a major shift of
populations into the province. If we compare the increase in GDP
in British Columbia and the GDP increase in Ontario or in
Alberta, we discover that the GDP has not increased nearly to the
same degree in British Columbia as it did in these other
provinces.
This should tell us something. In fact it tells us a lot. If
the government is determined that one part of the country shall
be preferred over another part of the country, indeed the formula
can be adjusted in such a way that it can be politically
manipulated so that it will grant to some and take away from
others.
What does it do? What has happened here is really interesting.
If we take, for example, the people in Prince Edward Island and
Newfoundland, they have had a 20% increase over and above what
they pay into the revenues for Canada. The program services they
receive are 20% more than they contribute into the treasury. In
Alberta it is the other way around.
In Alberta there is a 9% decrease in the amount of services and
product the people get and the money they pay in. In other
words, there is a deficit in the government services received by
Alberta people and there is a surplus in Newfoundland.
Perhaps there should be some of this sort of thing, but it is
interesting that this happens to people at the lowest end of the
income bracket. These are $20,000 to $30,000 people who get 9%
less in government services in Alberta and get 20% more in
Newfoundland. That is unfair.
Mr. Stan Keyes (Hamilton West, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I
have listened intently to the debate on the bill before us and
quite frankly I am astonished at the opposition party and in
particular the Reform Party and the lack of debate that has
actually taken place on the bill before us now.
1810
The member for Kootenay—Columbia whines and complains about the
time allocation motion. Yet only two members of the Reform Party
almost came close to addressing directly the government order of
the day, Bill C-65.
For the folks at home, in case they have become confused, we are
supposed to be discussing an act to amend the Federal-Provincial
Fiscal Arrangements Act or the equalization program.
The member for Kootenay—Columbia says he represents 85,000
constituents to whom at this moment I will apologize on his
behalf. I know he has to be completely embarrassed by the fact
that he has not addressed the issue we are supposed to be
debating in this place.
Did the member for Kootenay—Columbia touch on any of the
changes to the equalization program? None. Does any member of
the Reform Party really and truly understand the importance of
the equalization program? No. Given the level of debate on the
floor of this place by members of the Reform Party, what an
embarrassment.
For members opposite I will try to explain that a co-ordinated
team effort produced this cornerstone of the Canadian federation
called the equalization program. Many of my colleagues on this
side of the House have articulated the definition of the program,
the manner of payment in the program, the basic structure of the
program and the positive constructive improvements which will
increase the cost of the equalization program.
Reform Party members tell us they need more than the 48 hours
being provided to debate the bill. The member for Kelowna said
that he would strike out on the details of the equalization
program. Did he address the fact that the program includes
changes to the ceiling and floor provisions of the equalization
program? I heard it on this side of the House. It will protect
against unusually large fluctuations in equalization transfers.
Was that addressed by members of the Reform Party? No, they did
not touch on that.
At the time of the 1998 budget it was projected that
equalization in 1998-99 would amount to $8.5 million. The last
official estimates released last October showed an increase to
$8.8 billion. Did they address that or ask why it has gone up to
$8.8 billion? Did they examine the equalization program and its
importance to the country? No, they did not.
The member for Kelowna—
Mr. Werner Schmidt: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. The hon. member opposite is suggesting that we could have
addressed all those issues. The important thing is that if we
could not—
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): That is not a point
of order. That is a matter of debate.
Mr. Stan Keyes: Madam Speaker, that is the member I was
referring to a little earlier.
The member for Kelowna stood in his place with righteous
indignation. Did he speak to the issue of the equalization
program? No, he did not do that. Did the member for Kelowna or
the member for Kootenay—Columbia address the specifics of the
equalization program? No. Did members opposite in the Reform
Party want days to discuss the equalization program? Yes. Are
they going to discuss the issues? No.
The member for Kelowna talks about his party's policy on the
equalization program. Maybe the hon. member could save that
debate for his united alternative meeting this weekend because
there is a policy on equalization in the country and it is
working terrifically well. It has been examined for two years by
federal and provincial representatives. Does the member want to
attack the issue at hand? Does he want to look at all the points
that are important to the equalization program? No, he does not.
To his constituents in Kelowna I apologize on behalf of the
member.
I understand my time is up. I appreciate the opportunity to
contribute to the debate and to show how government members are
trying to articulate the importance of this cornerstone of the
federation.
1815
Mr. Ken Epp: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
We are debating Bill C-65. I think you should ask the member to
actually debate the issues he said he was going to talk about.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): That is not a point
of order.
[Translation]
It being 6.15 p.m., pursuant to order made earlier today, it is
my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every
question necessary to dispose of the stage of second reading of
the bill now before the House.
[English]
The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House
to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): In my opinion the
nays have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Call in the members.
1840
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Anderson
| Assad
| Assadourian
|
Asselin
| Augustine
| Axworthy
(Winnipeg South Centre)
| Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
|
Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bergeron
|
Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Bigras
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Brien
| Brison
| Brown
|
Bryden
| Byrne
| Caccia
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Casey
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Chan
| Charbonneau
|
Chrétien
(Frontenac – Mégantic)
| Clouthier
| Coderre
| Collenette
|
Comuzzi
| Crête
| Cullen
| de Savoye
|
Debien
| DeVillers
| Dion
| Discepola
|
Doyle
| Dromisky
| Duceppe
| Duhamel
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Finestone
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Fontana
| Fry
| Gagliano
|
Gallaway
| Gauthier
| Godfrey
| Goodale
|
Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
| Guarnieri
|
Guimond
| Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
|
Hubbard
| Ianno
| Iftody
| Jackson
|
Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Karygiannis
|
Keddy
(South Shore)
| Keyes
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
|
Kraft Sloan
| Lalonde
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
Lebel
| Lee
| Lefebvre
| Leung
|
Lincoln
| MacAulay
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
| Marceau
|
Marchand
| Marchi
| Massé
| McCormick
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
(Edmonton West)
| McTeague
|
McWhinney
| Mifflin
| Minna
| Mitchell
|
Muise
| Murray
| Myers
| Nault
|
Normand
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
|
Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
|
Peric
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Picard
(Drummond)
|
Pillitteri
| Pratt
| Price
| Proud
|
Provenzano
| Redman
| Reed
| Richardson
|
Robillard
| Rocheleau
| Rock
| Saada
|
Sauvageau
| Scott
(Fredericton)
| Sekora
| Serré
|
Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
| Steckle
|
Stewart
(Brant)
| St - Julien
| Szabo
| Telegdi
|
Thibeault
| Torsney
| Turp
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Venne
| Volpe
|
Wappel
| Whelan
| Wilfert
| Wood – 168
|
NAYS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Anders
| Bailey
|
Blaikie
| Cadman
| Casson
| Chatters
|
Cummins
| Davies
| Desjarlais
| Duncan
|
Earle
| Epp
| Gilmour
| Godin
(Acadie – Bathurst)
|
Goldring
| Gouk
| Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
|
Hanger
| Hardy
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
|
Hoeppner
| Jaffer
| Johnston
| Konrad
|
Laliberte
| Lowther
| Lunn
| Manning
|
McDonough
| Meredith
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Morrison
|
Nystrom
| Pankiw
| Penson
| Proctor
|
Reynolds
| Riis
| Ritz
| Robinson
|
Schmidt
| Scott
(Skeena)
| Solberg
| Solomon
|
Stoffer
| Strahl
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Vautour
|
White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| Williams – 54
|
PAIRED
Members
Alarie
| Alcock
| Bellehumeur
| Bernier
(Bonaventure – Gaspé – Îles - de - la - Madeleine – Pabok)
|
Bulte
| Carroll
| Dalphond - Guiral
| Dubé
(Lévis - et - Chutes - de - la - Chaudière)
|
Dumas
| Laurin
| Longfield
| Marleau
|
Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Mills
(Broadview – Greenwood)
| Peterson
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
|
Plamondon
| Tremblay
(Rimouski – Mitis)
|
The Deputy Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
Accordingly, the bill stands referred to the Standing Committee
on Finance.
(Bill read the second time and referred to a committee)
ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
1845
[Translation]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to
have been moved.
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, on November
23, 1998, I rose in this House to speak of the 4,000 workers on
Prince Edward Island who were forced to wait six weeks to
qualify for employment insurance or to receive benefits.
The response by the Minister of Human Resources Development
sidestepped the question entirely. He said, and I quote:
What I keep saying is that this reform has been such an
important one for Canadians that we as a government will monitor
very closely its impact and we will make the right changes when
they need to be made, as we did not too long ago with the small
weeks to address the concerns of my Atlantic colleagues.
I never said anything about small weeks. I spoke about the
4,000 workers on Prince Edward Island who were forced to wait
six weeks before receiving EI benefits. That shows how much the
Minister of Human Resources Development is out of touch with the
real problems people are facing.
In his response, he also spoke of the “gappers”. I did not say
anything about “gappers”.
I was speaking about people who have had to wait six weeks for
an employment insurance cheque.
Today I got a letter from a lady who wrote “How is a person
supposed to manage on a starvation income of $636 a month, when
the rent is $400 and then there is the phone and the
electricity, not to mention all the little payments that have to
be made? Food has to be paid for somehow”. She continues “I
often ask God to come and take me away. I wonder what point
there is in living, why we are put on earth to live in such
misery. Help us. Urgently”.
This is the kind of message I am hearing from all over. Our
people are suffering. Canadians are suffering.
The minister referred to “7,000 people in a black hole.
Today, there are only 2,000”. Only 2,000 suffering. There are
only 2,000 with no money coming in from January to May, whose
refrigerators are empty and who are sending letters like those I
have received from people telling me they want to kill
themselves after 27 years of working in plants. It is a
disgrace that they are being treated like this by the Liberal
government after 27 years of work.
The members opposite should be ashamed because, when they were
in opposition, they spoke out against the Progressive
Conservative Party's UI cuts. The hon. member for Saint-Maurice,
the Liberal leader, said that the Progressive Conservatives were
not attacking the real problem, which was the economy,
preferring instead to go after unemployed Canadians.
1850
[English]
Ms. Bonnie Brown (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Human Resources Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the member
asked the question in the past and asked it again tonight about
people waiting for their claims to be processed in Prince Edward
Island. He claimed that 4,000 people had to wait for six weeks.
We went back and looked at the records and in Prince Edward
Island from April to October 1998 the average number of claims
filed was about 2,000 per month. Ninety-seven per cent of those
entitled to EI received their first payment within 28 days. In my
lexicon 28 days is not six weeks and is pretty good service to
people who apply.
His second point was about gappers. He forgets to mention that
seasonal workers or workers with irregular working patterns face
particular issues with regard to accessing EI. Some gappers are
unable to find enough work so that the combination of work plus
EI gets them through an entire year. This problem is most
prevalent in his province.
We are sensitive to the plight of seasonal workers, and a change
to an hours based system benefits many who work very long hours
during the work season. The member has to understand that EI is
not intended to be a regular income supplement and the Government
of Canada prefers to put emphasis on creating additional
employment to address this issue.
We have invested $2.1 billion in active employment measures and
have renewed funding for the Canadian jobs fund which provides
the most direct response to the gapper issue.
In New Brunswick alone the federal government has made $5
million available directly for the gapper issue in partnership
with that province.
ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE
Mr. John Solomon (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, on October 22, I asked the former solicitor general to
back away from any decision to implement the so-called alternate
service delivery at the RCMP depot division training academy in
Regina, in my riding.
Alternate service delivery or ASD, as it is called, is the
latest bureaucratic buzzword for privatization, a bad policy of
right wingers who do not believe government has or ought to have
any role in providing public services. We have lots of
experience with privatization and right wingers in my province in
Saskatchewan, lots of fiascos that I wish the federal government
would try to learn from.
Privatization is synonymous with lost jobs, higher costs, low
wages and reduced services. ASD or privatization has been tried
in various federal government departments like CFB Goose Bay.
Here is what happens. The government fires you and then if you
are one of the lucky 55% a subcontractor offers you your job back
at about half the pay. Privatization: jobs are lost, costs go
up to the taxpayers, wages do down and public services are
reduced.
ASD is being invoked as a potential money saver by this right
wing Liberal government. The Liberals believe they need to save
money at the RCMP because the force's budget is in a management
mess. Things are so bad that when treasury board realized last
October that the RCMP had apparently overspent its budget,
treasury board would not release any more funds without
undertaking a $1 million audit of the operation of the entire
force by management consultants KPMG.
How bad a budget management problem do you need to justify
spending $1 million on an audit? The RCMP has a budget of $1.2
billion. By October it was overbudget by $11 million, mainly in
B.C. and Alberta. Ten million was transferred to B.C. from other
divisions of the force, cadet training was frozen at the depot in
Regina and other serious cuts in policing were implemented,
leaving Canadians dangerously under protected.
Now they are looking around for scapegoats and they have seized
on the civilian workers at the depot as prime targets. For the
record, civilian services at the depot account for $1.9 million
of the division's $40 million budget, or 4.75% of the salaries
are for the support services by the public servants in that
depot.
I met with many of these workers who are concerned for their
jobs and their families. They are also concerned about the RCMP
and the credibility the force has. They provide a dedicated and
cost effective service to the depot division and the RCMP, a
quality service that would be lost if plans for privatization
proceed.
These employees have already participated in one study of
privatization, a study that proved privatization cost the force
more money than if they had just kept the status quo.
1855
There is plenty of evidence that the high management and
administrative costs of the RCMP are the real culprit. The rights
and privileges of the officer class also come at a very high
price. If I were working at KPMG that is certainly where I would
be looking first.
But in a rush to jump the gun on any other recommendations that
KPMG might suggest, a last minute report from depot division
management to old division headquarters in Ottawa is recommending
that privatization be pushed ahead instead. The report was not
done by outside consultants but by area RCMP management. It was
based on out of date and incorrect information and in spite of
claims that they consulted, the so-called consultants never
actually consulted the affected workers. It is strange but it is
true.
I wrote to the President of the Treasury Board and the solicitor
general last week based on further meetings with my constituents.
I have asked them to hit the pause button on the drive to
privatize and to make sure they receive and read the KPMG report
before making any fundamental decisions like privatizing the
civilian depot employees in Regina.
This is no laughing matter for the civilian depot workers or
their families and it is no laughing matter for me or the RCMP. I
hope the parliamentary secretary can report to me today that
there will be no new moves to privatize those civilian services
and that any decisions about the depot will wait for the KPMG
report.
[Translation]
Mr. Jacques Saada (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, cadet training has been suspended
at the Regina depot.
I want to make it clear that this is a temporary suspension. It
is temporary, because the RCMP is carrying out a detailed review
of its programs and service delivery mechanisms across the
country, not just in Regina, but throughout Canada, as part of
its duty to manage its resources responsibly.
The RCMP must make the best possible use of its resources in
order to focus on its primary mandate, which is policing.
Once the review is complete, a date will be set for the
reopening of the RCMP training centre.
The RCMP is recognized the world over for the quality of its
training, and our government will naturally do everything it can
to see that this reputation continues.
[English]
EAST TIMOR
Mr. Svend J. Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, in late October last year the Minister of Foreign
Affairs met with Timorese leader and Nobel prize winner José
Ramos-Horta.
Mr. Ramos-Horta was in Canada to urge the Government of Canada
to support the people of East Timor, in particular to support
their right to self-determination and to an internationally
supervised referendum on their future. On that day I asked the
Minister of Foreign Affairs what the position of the Government
of Canada was with respect to support for East Timor's right to
self-determination.
Unfortunately the Minister of Foreign Affairs did not come out
in support of the right to self-determination. In fact, there
have been 10 votes at the United Nations since the brutal
invasion by Indonesia of East Timor and the annexation in 1975
and on not one of those votes has Canada supported the people of
East Timor and their fundamental right to self-determination.
Earlier today in this House we spoke about the genocide in
Armenia from 1915 to 1923. There has been genocide in East Timor
as well. Since 1975 over 200,000 people, over one-third of the
population, have lost their lives in the brutal repression and
genocide that followed the occupation.
The East Timorese people have carried out a valiant fight for
independence. We know that in 1991 hundreds of innocent marchers
were massacred at a demonstration in Dili. The documentation of
human rights abuses by Amnesty International, the East Timor
Human Rights Centre and the UN human rights commission is
extensive.
Just in the last few months Yayasan Hak, a very reliable East
Timorese NGO, has monitored complaints filed by victims of
extrajudicial executions, detentions, torture and forced
disappearances. Over 7,000 refugees have been forced to leave
their homes just in the last few months as a result of the terror
and intimidation taking place there.
1900
For too long the Canadian government has turned a blind eye to
these abuses and instead placed the focus on establishing a cosy
trade relationship with Suharto. We saw that in spades at the
APEC leaders summit in Vancouver in 1997.
The fall of General Suharto last May provided some hope but
clearly it is essential that the international community provide
support for the people of East Timor at this time. I ask the
Government of Canada today, I call on the Government of Canada to
join in the growing call for a United Nations monitored
peacekeeping force to oversee a referendum for
self-determination. I call on our government to provide support
for a transitional administration to help the territory toward
independence.
The Minister of Foreign Affairs spoke just last week at the
security council about the importance of his human security
agenda and the importance of protecting civilians in armed
conflict. What better place to apply those principles than in
East Timor.
I call as well on the United Nations to dispatch a monitoring
force to East Timor as soon as possible to oversee the disarming
and disbanding of the paramilitaries, paramilitaries that are
being actively armed and supported by the Indonesian army. We
want to see a reduction in occupying troops. We want to see the
protection of the population against further human rights abuses.
I urge the secretary of state, who I see in the House today, to
call for a permanent United Nations office in East Timor to
support and co-ordinate these very important activities. The
time has come for Canada to play a positive role and to send a
delegation to monitor the elections in East Timor and Indonesia.
The people of East Timor have suffered long enough. Canada has
been silent long enough. The time for justice is now.
Hon. Raymond Chan (Secretary of State (Asia-Pacific),
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is not true that Canada has not paid
attention to the human rights issue in East Timor. We have
continuously monitored the situation and raised those concerns
with the Indonesian government. At the end of last year I paid a
special visit to Indonesia on human rights issues.
Canada welcomes and is encouraged by indications that the
negotiations in New York on the future of East Timor included
discussions of ways of directly consulting the East Timorese
people. We maintain that the East Timorese should have a say in
determining their future. Now that East Timorese leader Xanana
Gusmao has been moved from prison to house arrest, this will
facilitate the consultation process with the East Timorese.
In October last year I personally visited Xanana Gusmao in
prison. He was very appreciative of Canada's efforts in East
Timor.
The Government of Canada is engaged in discussions with a number
of countries regarding East Timor's future at this very pivotal
time. These countries include the main parties to discussions at
the United Nations. In this context, Canada is closely examining
its position with a view to providing continuous support to the
people of East Timor.
Canada is the third largest aid donor in East Timor and provides
about $1.1 million annually through NGOs. Canada has also
regularly contributed to the All Inclusive Intra-East Timorese
Dialogue. Canada's ambassador to Indonesia visited East Timor in
December, one aim of his visit being to explore options for
further Canadian assistance in order to build indigenous capacity
and further peace in East Timor.
POVERTY
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Speaker, back
in December I asked the government how it could in good
conscience defend its record on poverty.
Under the Liberal government homelessness is now a national
disaster. Poverty is a new growth industry as a result of
Liberal policy.
The 1989 unanimous House of Commons resolution to eliminate
child poverty is a mere echo as child poverty has now increased
by approximately 50%. The attack on the unemployed under the
dreadful unemployment insurance program is a national disgrace.
It is not just me who is saying this. Even the United Nations
has condemned Canada for lack of compliance with the UN covenant
on social, economic and cultural rights.
1905
I recently completed a cross-Canada tour on homelessness. I saw
for myself the awful circumstances that growing numbers of
Canadians live in as a result of the federal government's
abandonment of social housing in this country.
I want to ask the government: If the Liberals are genuine about
eliminating poverty, why is the government not indexing the child
tax benefit? Why is the government not ensuring that the child
tax benefit goes to the poorest of the poor, the families on
welfare? Why has this government ensured that income assistance
is being cut across the country so that more and more people are
living below the poverty line? If the government is genuine about
eliminating poverty, why are the Liberals not ensuring that they
return the UI program to its rightful owners, the unemployed
workers of Canada?
If the Liberal government is genuinely concerned about poverty,
why have we not seen a commitment to build social housing in this
country, something that has not happened since 1993? Why have we
not seen a commitment to live up to the UN covenant on social,
economic and cultural rights?
Finally, why does the government not heed its own report from
the finance minister? As an opposition MP in 1990 he said “The
lack of affordable housing contributes to and accelerates the
cycle of poverty which is reprehensible in a society as rich as
ours”. That was the now finance minister speaking.
We want to know what is the commitment of this government to
alleviate poverty in Canada?
Ms. Bonnie Brown (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Human Resources Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I applaud
the member's dedication to and illustration of poverty in this
country. Certainly many members on this side of the House share
that concern.
However, I do not think it is helpful to anyone in this House to
always target and blame the actions of this government. Nowhere
in her remarks did I hear any recognition of some of the other
social phenomena which exist in the 90s and indeed sometimes
interact to exacerbate poverty.
For example, the technological revolution of which we are in the
middle is putting us in a period of transition, a transition
between the industrial age and the information age. Historically,
social revolutions of this sort actually impede some people from
moving forward. Some people adjust quickly and prosper. We are
finding that today with the information workers who are training
themselves upwards and are getting the good jobs with the high
salaries.
Often in these periods other people find it difficult to adjust.
It might be because of where they live or because of the level
of their education. They fall behind. This is simply part of the
period of history we are in.
The member often talks about the change to our EI system and
calls it a national disgrace. Nowhere in her remarks have I
heard an analysis of the new labour market and understanding that
the work people do is changing. All I hear is a nostalgic
wishful thinking to go backward in time and bring back a system
that was suitable for the 70s, not for the 90s.
This government is attempting to eliminate poverty. We are
moving forward step by step as we have the dollars to afford the
actions necessary.
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to have the opportunity to clarify the exchange between
the minister of Indian affairs and myself during question period
on October 28, 1998.
I want to preface my remarks by stating that I have been
bombarded by aboriginal people begging for forensic audits on
their reserves since that exchange in October. Since that time I
have realized that the confusion on this matter clearly lies in
Ottawa with the department of Indian affairs which is making up
the rules as it goes along.
By that I mean the department first stated that it refused to
conduct investigations unless it is requested by the band
leadership. I guarantee that no leadership is going to ask to
have themselves investigated. Then we heard in the department's
own words that forensic audits are extremely expensive and time
consuming and a request from a few upset band members would not
be enough to warrant one.
I have a message for the minister. It is not just a few band
members, it is hundreds, probably thousands. I was just informed
last Thursday that a list of 5,500 names from the Yukon to
southern Alberta has been collected all asking for help with
forensic audits.
These people are living in buses, sitting on apple crates,
freezing and starving in tarpaper shacks. They are not being
frivolous when they ask for forensic audits.
1910
The minister talks of accountability, transparency and working
in partnership. She says she is reviewing the management
practices of every first nation and that she is allowing the
chief to set the minimum standards for accountability practices.
Can she not see that this is the problem? The grassroots people
say that most chiefs and councils do not have the first clue on
how to set standards of accountability.
The minister claims that those who report financial
mismanagement will lead to pitting members of the community
against one another. This is simply not true. This will bring
people together and put them all on a level playing field.
The largest problem today is the fact that the department has
repeatedly told the grassroots people that when they have
documented proof of financial mismanagement by chief and council
to report it to the RCMP. However, in a letter from the
commissioner of the RCMP, Phil Murray, he very clearly
contradicts this statement. He says that in cases of
misappropriation of band funds and/or assets, DIAND will
initially review the allegations. Should the department believe
an investigation is warranted, it will refer the case to the RCMP
for investigation.
There are a few people on one reserve who managed to get hold of
some documents. They did those things very secretively. I would
not disclose who they were because they would be in real trouble
with their chief and council. The documents were a list of
social payments made to members of a band every month for two to
three years.
I looked at these documents and noticed that a few hundred
dollars was being paid to the odd member from the band from time
to time. Then every month one or two names would get a cheque
for $8,000, or $9,000, or $4,000. When I looked at that I
wondered why those people would be getting so much compared to
what the rest of them were on the lists. Then they produced
death certificates. One of the people who were getting these
cheques had been dead for 13 years. Not being an expert, I
thought it looked a little suspicious that a dead person would be
receiving that much money every month.
The band members and I went to the RCMP. We showed them the
documents and the RCMP agreed that there was probably something
serious here. The RCMP in turn sent it to commercial crimes in
Edmonton which looked at it and notified me a few days later that
there was insufficient evidence to carry on an investigation. In
other words the department must not have agreed to it and told
the RCMP to back off.
This whole system needs cleaning up. I would encourage the
member across the way who is going to respond to me that he get
out and check with his Winnipeg Coalition for Accountability
Group. Let them explain the problems to him.
Mr. David Iftody (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Indian Affairs and Northern Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I am pleased to respond to the hon. member for Wild Rose on
behalf of the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
concerning the forensic audits.
For too long the solution has been to have the federal
government come to the rescue and fix all the problems that
emerge in and around the reserve communities. We tried this
approach and we know that having evaluated it in the past 50
years it has not worked. The Royal Commission on Aboriginal
Peoples sent us a message to change. Today our approach is to
work in partnership with first nations to build a plan that will
create real change on behalf of aboriginal people.
First nations governments are expected to conduct their affairs
in accordance with the principles common to all governments in
Canada, namely, transparency, disclosure and redress. These
principles are intended to ensure accountability of first nation
leaders to their communities. To help build effective
administration for this responsibility, all first nations are
required to complete an evaluation of their current
accountability and management practices. Where weaknesses are
identified, first nations develop a plan to strengthen them.
First nations are taking the initiative to build the necessary
support for this activity.
First nations governments and the Department of Indian Affairs
and Northern Development work together. When problems do occur,
and they do occur, a remedial management plan is put into place
to help restore the first nation's financial health. This plan
could include placing the first nation under a co-management plan
or even third party management.
Where there is evidence of wrongdoing, it should be taken to the
police as the member has alluded to.
In this case of course they found there was no wrongdoing. In a
first nations community, as in other communities, the police have
the authority and responsibility to investigate allegations of
wrongdoing.
Accountability is fundamental to self-government. We continue
to partner with first nations private sector organizations and
governments and we will continue to work constructively with all
first nations to ensure accountability.
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: The motion to adjourn the House is now
deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly, this House stands
adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order
24(1).
(The House adjourned at 7.15 p.m.)