36th Parliament, 1st Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 198
CONTENTS
Wednesday, March 17, 1999
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| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| SEMAINE DE LA FRANCOPHONIE
|
| Mr. Yvon Charbonneau |
| THE PUBLIC SERVICE OF CANADA
|
| Mr. Keith Martin |
| SEMAINE DE LA FRANCOPHONIE
|
| Mr. Réginald Bélair |
| GEORGE CHUVALO
|
| Mr. Janko Peric |
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| THE SENATE OF CANADA
|
| Hon. Charles Caccia |
| SILKEN LAUMANN
|
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
| THE IRISH
|
| Mr. Pat O'Brien |
| ST. PATRICK'S DAY
|
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
| ST. PATRICK'S DAY
|
| Ms. Hélène Alarie |
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| STU CHAPMAN
|
| Ms. Paddy Torsney |
| ST. PATRICK'S DAY
|
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
| REFORM PARTY
|
| Mr. Denis Coderre |
| INFRASTRUCTURE
|
| Mr. John Solomon |
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| ST. PATRICK'S DAY
|
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
| THE ECONOMY
|
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
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| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| INTERNATIONAL CULTURAL FORUMS
|
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
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| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
| Hon. Sheila Copps |
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
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| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| NATIONAL HIGHWAY SYSTEM
|
| Mr. André Harvey |
| Hon. David M. Collenette |
| Mr. André Harvey |
| Hon. David M. Collenette |
| THE ECONOMY
|
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
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| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| TRADE
|
| Mr. Rahim Jaffer |
| Hon. Sergio Marchi |
| THE ECONOMY
|
| Mr. Preston Manning |
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| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| PRODUCTIVITY
|
| Mr. Antoine Dubé |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| Mr. Antoine Dubé |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| GRAIN
|
| Mr. Howard Hilstrom |
| Hon. Marcel Massé |
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| Mr. Howard Hilstrom |
| Hon. Marcel Massé |
| PASCAL HUDON
|
| Mr. Ghislain Lebel |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
| NATIONAL REVENUE
|
| Mrs. Karen Redman |
| Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal |
| TRADE
|
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
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| Hon. Sergio Marchi |
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
| Hon. Sergio Marchi |
| HOUSING
|
| Ms. Libby Davies |
| Hon. Alfonso Gagliano |
| Ms. Libby Davies |
| Hon. Alfonso Gagliano |
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| NATIONAL DEFENCE
|
| Mr. John Herron |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| Mr. David Price |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| AIR SAFETY
|
| Mrs. Sue Barnes |
| Hon. David M. Collenette |
| FIREARMS REGISTRY
|
| Mr. Garry Breitkreuz |
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
1500
| PRESENCE IN GALLERY
|
| The Speaker |
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Public Accounts
|
| Mr. Robert Bertrand |
| GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
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| PETITIONS
|
| Human Rights
|
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
| Child Pornography
|
| Mr. Jay Hill |
| MMT
|
| Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur |
| Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International
|
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
| The Senate of Canada
|
| Mr. Roger Gallaway |
| Bill C-68
|
| Bill C-304
|
| Hepatitis C
|
| Mr. Inky Mark |
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| Gun Control
|
| Mr. Inky Mark |
| MMT
|
| Mr. Paul Steckle |
| International Agreements
|
| Mr. Nelson Riis |
| The Rights of the Child
|
| Ms. Maria Minna |
| Iraq
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| Mr. Rick Borotsik |
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| MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| Mr. Rick Borotsik |
| Mr. Ted White |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| BUDGET IMPLEMENTATION ACT, 1999
|
| Bill C-71. Second reading
|
| Hon. David M. Collenette |
| Mr. Tony Valeri |
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1525
1530
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| Mr. Monte Solberg |
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1550
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1600
1605
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
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1615
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| The Deputy Speaker |
| BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
|
| Mr. Bob Kilger |
| Motion
|
| BUDGET IMPLEMENTATION ACT, 1999
|
| Bill C-71. Second reading
|
| Mr. Odina Desrochers |
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1635
1640
1645
1650
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| Mr. Nelson Riis |
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| Mr. Tony Valeri |
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| Ms. Angela Vautour |
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| Mr. Scott Brison |
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| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
| CRIMINAL CODE
|
| Bill C-219. Second reading
|
| Mr. Jim Abbott |
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| Mr. Hec Clouthier |
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| Mr. Gerald Keddy |
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| Mr. Richard M. Harris |
1800
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| Mr. Ken Epp |
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| Division deemed demanded and deferred.
|
| ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
|
| Veterans Affairs
|
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
| Mr. Bob Wood |
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| Tobacco
|
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
| Ms. Eleni Bakopanos |
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(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 198
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Wednesday, March 17, 1999
The House met at 2 p.m.
Prayers
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The Speaker: Today, we have two reasons to celebrate. First, it
is St. Patrick's Day and, second, of course, as is our practice
on Wednesday we will now sing O Canada, and we will be led by
the hon. member for Wentworth—Burlington.
[Editor's Note: Members sang the national anthem]
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[Translation]
SEMAINE DE LA FRANCOPHONIE
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau (Anjou—Rivière-des-Prairies, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, all French speaking Canadians celebrate the
Francophonie, regardless of the part of Canada they are in. It
is a celebration for Quebec, but it is also one for the entire
country.
Each of us is in a position to contribute to promoting French
culture in Canada and internationally.
Ever since the first Sommet de la Francophonie, the
participating states, Quebec and Canada among them, have
exchanged views in an atmosphere of harmony, not only on
cultural aspects, but also on the scientific, technical,
economic and social aspects of their relations.
May this Semaine de la Francophonie continue to unite peoples
and countries and bring them ever closer, in areas of
complementarity in which they can enjoy mutually advantageous
exchanges and collaboration in areas as diversified as culture,
social development and economic development.
* * *
[English]
THE PUBLIC SERVICE OF CANADA
Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, PSAC employees are being shafted. They are on strike
because their ability to engage in binding arbitration has been
taken away from them. All PSAC employees want is to be treated
fairly and to get back to work. As a result of the strike the
public is inconvenienced and our economy is hurting.
What do PSAC employees want? They want to be paid the same for
doing the same job with the same skills as other people in other
unions within the government. As it stands, PSAC employees are
paid significantly less.
In my riding of Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Canadian forces base
personnel have been exemplary in meeting the challenges laid out
for them. They have downsized more than 40%, increased
efficiency and doubled up on their duties. All they get from
this government is a kick in the teeth.
We must deal with PSAC workers fairly and treat them the same as
other workers within the federal government, give them the same
wages, benefits and opportunities and get them back to work.
Anything less is an abdication of this government's
responsibility.
* * *
[Translation]
SEMAINE DE LA FRANCOPHONIE
Mr. Réginald Bélair (Timmins—James Bay, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, all
of Canada has good reason to celebrate the Semaine de la
Francophonie.
In a number of Canadian provinces, the struggle to promote and
conserve the French language and culture has been a long and
difficult one.
The fear of losing the rich national resource that our language
and bilingualism represent has moved a number of people to form
organizations to defend and promote the French, with a view to
consolidating the position of francophones outside Quebec.
Today, all francophones outside Quebec feel pride in what they
have accomplished and join with Quebec in marking this week
which celebrates French and the ongoing battle in all of the
provinces of Canada to preserve and promote this rich culture.
* * *
[English]
GEORGE CHUVALO
Mr. Janko Peric (Cambridge, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise to
pay tribute to boxing legend George Chuvalo, Canadian heavyweight
champion for 21 years and one of our nation's toughest boxers.
Having endured a family tragedy that would have sent most down
for the count, George has fought back and declared all out war on
substance abuse.
With immense passion and determination he travels from city to
city urging Canadians teens, native youth and young offenders to
reject the use of drugs and the idea that drugs are cool or
glamorous.
George's anti-drug tour has been supported by the United Food
and Commercial Workers Union and Expedite Plus.
I know all members will join me in offering George our
encouragement for his continued efforts to educate youth about
the dangers of drug abuse.
* * *
1405
THE SENATE OF CANADA
Hon. Charles Caccia (Davenport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it
has become fashionable to kick an organization which cannot
defend itself, namely the upper house of parliament.
Over the decades valuable studies and reports have been produced
by our senators who have made a fine contribution to the
understanding of issues and the shaping of policies and laws. A
special Senate committee on poverty in Canada headed by Senator
David Croll is just one example. Upcoming reports include one on
the impact of globalization and another on Canada's boreal
forest.
Rather than attempting to dismantle a fine Canadian institution,
critics could better use their time and energy in becoming
acquainted with the good work of the other place and in informing
Canadians about the achievements of senators past and present.
With some exceptions, we in the House of Commons believe we have
the best possible arrangement for Canada, with one elected and
one appointed chamber. It is an ideal balance. Rather than
denigrating the Senate we should support it.
* * *
SILKEN LAUMANN
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
I rise today on behalf of all Canadians to honour one of my
constituents and one of our country's greatest and most
courageous athletes. Silken Laumann, Olympic medalist and world
champion rower, announced her retirement yesterday.
While her accomplishments include three Olympic medals and the
1991 single sculls World Championship, it was her determination
to triumph over adversity that won the hearts of a nation.
Just months before the 1992 Barcelona games her leg was
seriously injured in a collision at a German regatta. Doctors
said she would never race again. But she refused to give up.
She endured eight operations and battled back to win the bronze
medal.
If they awarded an Olympic medal for courage and determination,
I can think of no other recipient more worthy of a gold than
Silken Laumann. She is a shining example of what it means and
what it takes to be a true Olympian in every sense of the word.
* * *
THE IRISH
Mr. Pat O'Brien (London—Fanshawe, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as
you know, the Irish were one of the four founding cultures of
Canada in 1867; not two but four. This historical fact is
clearly symbolized on Canada's coat of arms, which includes the
Royal Harp of Tara and the Shamrock.
Indeed, the very ceiling of the House of Commons is fine
hand-painted Irish linen.
Several million Canadians proudly claim some Irish ancestry,
including 40% of Quebecers. Clearly Irish Canadians have made
and continue to make important contributions in every field of
endeavour in Canadian society.
To the wonderful people of Ireland we send our prayers for a
true and lasting peace with equality and justice for all. To the
people of Ireland and Canada, may I say a Happy St. Patrick's
Day, Joyeuse Saint-Patrice, Bannocktu Na Failee Padriq Oriv Gu
Layer.
* * *
ST. PATRICK'S DAY
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, I come
from the most Irish city there is in Canada: Saint John, New
Brunswick. I want to bring greetings from Saint John to all of
those who are Irish in the House of Commons. But more than that,
out of respect for you, Mr. Speaker, for whom I have great
respect, I would like all of my colleagues, if you would allow
us, to sing a chorus of When Irish Eyes Are Smiling. I ask them
all to stand.
[Editor's Note: Members sang When Irish Eyes Are Smiling]
* * *
[Translation]
ST. PATRICK'S DAY
Ms. Hélène Alarie (Louis-Hébert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, this year, St.
Patrick's Day, the celebration of the Irish, is particularly
significant.
This is in fact the first time in thirty years that the Irish in
the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland are celebrating
their national day in peace.
The Belfast agreements contain provisions for the possible
liberation and unification of the people of Ireland, thus
bringing to conclusion the work started by Daniel O'Connel,
Michael Collins, Eamon de Valera and the thousands of men and
women who fought for the independence of Ireland and for the
recognition of its identity as a nation.
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We can only hope that the peace process will ultimately mean the
uniting of the Irish. This would prove once and for all the
error of those who thought it possible to take away the identity
of a people by force and territorial annexation.
No political tactic or manoeuvring, no denial of rights or
failure to provide recognition can prevent a people from
affirming its existence and assuming its independence, if it so
desires—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Burlington.
* * *
[English]
STU CHAPMAN
Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is
my great pleasure to rise today and recognize Burlington Citizen
of the Year, Mr. Stu Chapman.
Stu Chapman has volunteered countless hours in Burlington and
across Canada. He has co-ordinated Grey Cup activities,
Studebaker events, assisted Friends of the Royal Hamilton Light
Infantry and the Burlington Lions-Optimist Minor Hockey
Association. He helped found Crime Stoppers in Burlington. He
has even been president of the Federal Progressive Conservative
Riding Association.
Today, Mr. Chapman is leading a wonderful group of Burlington
army cadets and their volunteer leaders on an educational tour of
Ottawa, its historical sites and the home of Canada's political
system.
Stu Chapman is a wonderful Canadian. His generosity, his
commitment to his community and his country are exemplary. He
has touched the lives of many. He has demonstrated the
importance of volunteerism and involved himself in making the
world a better place, particularly for our youngest citizens.
Colleagues, please join me in congratulating Burlington Citizen
of the Year, Mr. Stu Chapman.
* * *
ST. PATRICK'S DAY
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the member for Saint John is a hard act to follow.
Today Irish everywhere, including those who wish they were
Irish, celebrate the feast day of their patron saint, the
evangelist of Ireland, St. Patrick.
As Ireland enters its 15th century of Christianity, Canada's six
million Irish descendants can give thanks for the growing spirit
of peace taking root in their homeland. The Good Friday
agreement is a sign of hope in what has been a century of
violence and bloodshed.
Today is also a day to recall how fragile is the current peace
in a land riven by decades of sectarian hatred. Monday's brutal
car bomb attack on Rosemary Nelson, an Irish human rights lawyer
who died two hours after her legs were blown off, comes just two
weeks before the Good Friday peace agreement turns a year old.
She is simply the latest victim of the enemies of peace.
Terrorists on both sides have continued a murderous campaign to
prevent this resolution taking root, from the bombing at Omagh to
the daily beatings and shootings.
Terrorist intimidation must not be allowed to stand in the way
of peace. Without that there is little hope of restoring the
legacy of St. Patrick and the great civilization his message
spawned in Ireland.
* * *
[Translation]
REFORM PARTY
Mr. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I must strongly
criticize the conduct of the Reform Party in a matter that is
important to Quebec and Canada, the one involving Bombardier in
a dispute with Brazil.
By providing information to the Brazil government in the
Bombardier matter, the Reform Party displayed a total lack of
regard for the interests of Quebec and Canada.
The Reform Party could well have dangerously compromised the
position of the Government of Canada, which is working extremely
hard for a Quebec company.
[English]
I understand now that in return for the little service they gave
to the Brazilians they should move their headquarters to Brazil
and call themselves the The Unidos Alternatividados.
[Translation]
There is a name for this sort of behaviour.
[English]
I demand an apology from the Reform Party, especially for the
60,000 Canadian families who work for Bombardier. Do not ever,
ever take a side against Canada.
* * *
INFRASTRUCTURE
Mr. John Solomon (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, this week Liberals tabled a memo to justify the
so-called security reasons in the case of the untendered
contracts for the Prime Minister's cottage. The memo raises
other questions.
It shows that the RCMP asked for $80,000 to build a guard post
on the road. They actually awarded two untendered contracts
worth $137,000 for this work. Now we learn that costs have
reached $147,000 for the road alone, with no final billing yet.
In total, to date they have spent $200,000 on the Prime
Minister's personal cottage. The money has gone to the Prime
Minister's personal contractor who allegedly meets security
criteria but whose subcontractors are now before the courts on
fraud charges.
Canadian's are asking, how can they be sure the overruns are not
subsidizing the costs of the Prime Minister's private cottage
when the contracts went untendered to the same contractor before
construction of the cottage was complete?
Why has the extra $120,000 gone to a Liberal friend?
It is time the Prime Minister cleared the air on this matter by
tabling all relevant documents.
* * *
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[Translation]
ST. PATRICK'S DAY
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
on St. Patrick's Day, the national celebration of the Irish, I
as a Quebecker of Irish stock am pleased to have this
opportunity to pay homage to those women and men who have made
such a great contribution to what Quebec and Canada are today.
I am a descendant of those proud Irish who, after centuries
of English domination, fought to make Ireland a sovereign country
in 1921; of those proud Irish who, with the Belfast agreement,
committed Northern Ireland to a process giving their country
greater independence from the government in London; of those
proud Irish who left their native land to settle in America, to
build new lives and to build a country; of those proud Irish
who, in 1837 and 1838, took up the defence of the people of
French origin to establish an independent republic in Lower
Canada.
Yes, I am a descendant of those proud Irish, whose culture and
history ought to help them understand just how much they have in
common with the destiny and national aspirations of the Quebec
people.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
THE ECONOMY
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I had trouble falling asleep last night so I read a
speech by the industry minister.
In that speech to the Empire Club he admitted that Canada's
standard of living is falling far behind that of the United
States. It is now lower than that of California, lower than
Michigan, lower than Louisiana, Alabama and Georgia, even lower
than Mississippi.
Why does the Prime Minister persist in following high debt and
high tax policies that lower Canada's standard of living?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, when we formed the government we had a deficit of $42
billion. We eliminated this deficit within four years. During
that period we created more than 1.6 million jobs.
In the last budget the Minister of Finance again announced there
will be tax cuts to the tune of $16.5 billion. Maybe the leader
of the Reform Party does not know that we are on the right track.
We have been declared the best managers—
The Speaker: The hon. Leader of the Opposition.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, we are talking about Canada's standard of living, in
case the Prime Minister had not noticed.
The minister listed two principal reasons for the falling
standard of living, high government debt and high government
taxes, taxes that are 20% higher than our closest competitor and
a debtload that is too high in relation to our GNP.
Our high debt, high tax Prime Minister has made Canada poorer
than Mississippi. Does he really feel that is something to brag
about?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have to explain to the hon. leader of the Reform Party
or the united right, I am not sure of the name anymore—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: The Right Hon. Prime Minister.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, we have invested
money in research and development to make sure that Canada is
getting more competitive. We have also invested money in the
scholarship program to help young Canadians become more
competitive. We have established a registered education savings
plan to help young Canadians to become more productive than
before.
We have taken a country that was bankrupt and have managed to
put its finances in good order while at the same time keeping a
safety net that all Canadians can be proud of.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, we are talking about a declining standard of living. The
Prime Minister cannot seem to get that through his head.
The problem is the government cannot handle the truth. The
truth is that its high debt and high tax policies are driving the
standard of living of the country down.
When will the government face the fact that its high debt, high
tax policies are crippling Canada's competitiveness abroad and
decreasing our standard of living at home?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, if the hon. member has a problem sleeping he could read
the last financial report of the Department of Finance which
states that the government has paid $16 billion off market debt
in the last 10 months.
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We are working all the time for the benefit of Canadians to
create jobs and improve the finances of the nation. I would like
to tell the leader of—I do not know the name of the party—but
the Leader of the Opposition that the leader of this party would
never let his research bureau help a foreign government at the—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Medicine Hat.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, he
is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, is he?
Thanks to high taxes and a low dollar, our standard of living is
now worse than the poorest of the American deep south states.
That is the government's record.
We are still better off than Mexico, but then the Prime Minister
still has two years in his mandate to work on it.
According to the industry minister, if Canadians had kept pace
with the Americans: “Our per capita income would have been
$7,000 a year higher. For a family of four, this is a $28,000
shortfall”.
How can he brag about a record that leaves families $28,000 a
year—
The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Finance.
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the fact is real disposable income in Canada is up. It
went up this year and was up last year.
As I said yesterday, the Reform Party is caught in a time warp.
Reformers are quoting statistics over the course of a decade,
most of which when the Tories were in power. The fact is we
turned it around.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
guess the industry minister is caught in a time warp. Here is
what he said February 18. He told the audience that our standard
of living has fallen behind Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia. He
said that because our productivity was so weak the average
Canadian has lost $7,000 a year. That is what he said three
weeks ago. I guess he is in a time warp.
Is the Prime Minister proud of a record that leaves the average
Canadian $7,000 poorer?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, what the Minister of Industry was doing was in fact
quoting from a series of projections that arose out of the 1980s.
Our productivity growth in the 1990s is substantially higher
than what it was in the 1980s. Our manufacturing productivity in
the 1990s is much higher than it was the 1980s. Last year it was
higher than that of the United States. Those are the facts.
* * *
[Translation]
INTERNATIONAL CULTURAL FORUMS
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday, the Minister of Canadian Heritage said, and I quote
“In this party and this country, we believe in two founding
peoples and two official languages and two cultures”.
In a context of cultural diversity, can the Prime Minister tell
us why it is so difficult for his government, and him in
particular, to admit that the Government of Quebec has an
international role to play in promoting Quebec's culture?
Why is Belgium's national communities' approach impossible to
imagine here?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we
have accommodated Quebec in the Francophonie to a considerable
degree, much more so than Catalonia has been accommodated by
Spain. We promote the French fact.
Yesterday, I was very pleased when Premier of New Brunswick, Mr.
Thériault, who is not an anglophone and who is very proud of his
French heritage, said that the Canadian government was serving
the cultural interests of New Brunswick's Acadian francophones
very well.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
will the Prime Minister explain, from a federalist point of view,
because there is no doubt that that is where he is coming from,
what is so wrong with Canada letting Quebec, the only majority
francophone government in North America, represent itself on
issues that interest it?
What is the reason for stubbornly refusing to allow Quebec the
right to defend and to promote its culture and its identity?
1425
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
this is what we are allowing them to do, but as part of the
Canadian delegation.
Why are these people, who travel with Canadian passports, so
insulted and why do they not want to sit beside a Canadian
diplomat at a meeting of sovereign nations?
They want to behave like a sovereign nation, but on two
occasions now the people of Quebec have said they want to remain
in Canada, a country with two official languages, French and
English.
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it feels like
the Prime Minister is once again on the trail of the
separatists.
He is familiar with Mr. Gérin-Lajoie's contention that Quebec
should speak for itself internationally in areas under its
jurisdiction. This contention was put forward by a federalist
and has the support of federalists in Quebec.
Could the Prime Minister explain why he finds this such a
problem and why it is such a bad thing for Canada for Quebec to
be in its rightful place?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if
the hon. member were abreast of things he would know that, on
several occasions, the Quebec minister has made presentations to
UNESCO on his own behalf. However, she must do it as a Quebec
minister and a member of a delegation from the sovereign country
of Canada.
That is how it works internationally. We encourage Quebeckers
to speak out everywhere. We do it in the Francophonie, but
everyone must be aware that, when we are abroad and not involved
in Francophonie programs, Canada speaks and gives the floor to
Quebec or New Brunswick or—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Roberval.
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, if there are
two cultures, how can the Prime Minister explain that the
Minister of Canadian Heritage allowed the Quebec minister of
cultural affairs to attend the Ottawa conference last year, but
without the right to speak?
I ask him whether he really thinks that, by denying the facts,
by gagging us and trying to keep us from expressing ourselves,
he thinks he will resolve the problem. Does he think that by
blacklisting the Government of Quebec he will stop us from
having a voice internationally?
Hon. Sheila Copps (Minister of Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, there is only one government that is not interested in
Canada and that is the Government of Quebec.
I have written to the Quebec culture minister on a number of
occasions to invite her to take part with Canada internationally.
They have refused, because they refuse to be part of the
sovereign delegation of Canada.
* * *
[English]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
government is about to table its annual EI assessment. We do not
have to wait for that report to know that the EI changes are
unfair to women.
Since 1992 the percentage of women covered has been cut in half.
Mothers returning to the workforce are being penalized. Will the
minister use the tabling of this report as an opportunity to end
discrimination against unemployed women or will we just see
another self-serving report?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I can reassure the leader of
the NDP that it will not be a self-serving report. It will
assess the impact on individuals and communities of our reform of
the employment insurance system.
I hope very much, on the basis of this report and with the
facts, we will be able to establish a healthy dialogue in the
House to make sure the employment insurance system in Canada and
the other programs built around it, to compliment it, continue to
best serve Canadian citizens.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, when
the government introduced its massive EI changes it justified
them on the basis that women and youth were left out.
Apparently not enough for these Liberals. Check the numbers. In
1992, 38% of unemployed youth received benefits. Today it is down
to 15%. When will the government stop this discrimination? How
many reports will have to come and go before the government
provides fair protection for women and youth?
1430
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the NDP leader wants to make
employment insurance easily accessible to the young. That is a
mistake we as a country made 30 years ago, which explains why so
many of our older workers have a hard time in the labour market
today.
The best thing we can do for young Canadians is not to give them
employment insurance. Is that what the leader would want for her
children? That is not what she wants for her children. Why does
she even conceive of it for Canadian children? We want to give
the Canadian young training and access to the labour market.
* * *
[Translation]
NATIONAL HIGHWAY SYSTEM
Mr. André Harvey (Chicoutimi, PC): Mr. Speaker, my question is
for the Minister of Transport.
Several months ago, the minister said in Toronto that the
national highway system was a priority. Late last year, the
minister tabled a study and a revised national highway policy
put together by all Canada's transport ministers. The minister
said that this study had been ordered because effective and
integrated highways are vital to Canada's economic well-being.
When will the minister be tabling a real national highway
policy?
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have already answered this question several times in
the House.
It is true that we were studying a national highway system, but
the hon. member knows full well that it is a question of
funding, a question of fiscal priorities.
Mr. André Harvey (Chicoutimi, PC): Mr. Speaker, all the
provinces are now calling for a national highway infrastructure
program.
Does the Minister intend in any future proposal to stick to his
goal of putting in place or allowing the presence of private and
public sector consortiums, and has he remembered that toll
highways are out in this country, because the volume is not
there?
[English]
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I think most members of the House would like to see
an improvement in road quality across the country. It is a
question of financial priorities not only for this government but
for provincial governments.
I remind the House that the provincial premiers were unanimous
last August in stating that the priority for the country should
be health care. Everybody on this side of the House agrees with
that, and I assume most people on the other side do as well.
Money was put into health care. A question of further
priorities is the subject of discussion in the next number of
months. I am meeting with my colleagues, the provincial
transport ministers, in Ottawa in the month of May to look at all
the things the member raised including the question of tolls.
* * *
THE ECONOMY
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
Liberal pollster Michael Marzolini has explained the Prime
Minister's strategy now on the falling standard of living. He
said that only 10% of Canadians know how badly it is falling. The
Liberals pretend everything is just great even though they know
it is not.
Marzolini said: “A government could be punished if it allowed
the opposition to capture on this issue”. Canadians have
captured on this issue. Is the Prime Minister not simply denying
the facts? He knows that an informed taxpayer is an angry
taxpayer.
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the reason the opposition will never be able to capture
this issue is that it has come to it too late. The government
began to address it immediately. That is why we eliminated the
$42 billion deficit. That is why we have invested in education.
That is why we have invested in research and development. That
is why we have invested in the future of the country.
The fact is that just because the Reform Party has only woken up
to smell the roses does not mean the Canadian people and the
Canadian government have not been working in concert on the very
issue.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the government can blow its horn as much as it likes, but the
fact is that we still have huge high debts and high taxes. That
is what is affecting our standard of living.
Marzolini's advice to the Prime Minister is usually secret but
today it is public because the situation is so dreadful. We are
poorer now than Mississippi. The Prime Minister knows it and the
finance minister knows it, even though most Canadians do not know
yet because they have tried to hide it. Does that embarrassing
fact not make it just a little hard to stand up and brag about
our standard of living?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have just gone through a list, and I could do it
again, of a number of measures the government has brought forward
to help the country improve its productivity. There is one issue
that really does stand before—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. We heard the question and I
think we should now hear the answer.
1435
Hon. Paul Martin: Mr. Speaker, I would simply like to
remind the member from the Brazil party what the government has
done to improve the productivity of the nation.
If she would sit down and work with the government instead of
working with other governments, there is a great deal more we
might be able to do.
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the
Secretary of State for the Status of Women, who is supposed to
look after women's interests, sided with the government, which
claims that women are not being discriminated against by the new
eligibility rules for maternity benefits, because pregnancy is a
natural event.
Does the Minister of Human Resources Development realize that
his department is not immune to discriminatory practices toward
women when it states that pregnancy is a natural event?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I can assure you that when we
take a close look at the number of Canadian women who were paid
maternity benefits, we can see that these benefits were
maintained and that it is the number of births that went down.
Therefore, women have definitely not been penalized in that
regard in recent years.
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the minister
is well aware that, in 1989, the supreme court ruled that
discrimination based on pregnancy was discrimination against
women and that it violated the charter of rights.
How can the minister let his department still use an argument
that takes us decades back in time to justify the fact that the
employment insurance program discriminates against pregnant
women?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it goes without saying that,
when our government tabled in this House an act to reform the
employment insurance program, we made sure that it was legal and
constitutional.
There may be challenges. Challenges are part of the democratic
process. I can assure you that our government is absolutely
convinced that there is no discrimination, that the Employment
Insurance Act is perfectly legal and constitutional.
* * *
[English]
TRADE
Mr. Rahim Jaffer (Edmonton—Strathcona, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, yesterday we saw a desperate display in the House by the
international trade minister. No wonder he wants to talk about
anything except the fact that the World Trade Organization just
declared the Liberal technology partnerships program illegal.
When will the minister get it? The best way to help Canadian
entrepreneurs is with tax cuts and not illegal subsidies and
corporate welfare.
Hon. Sergio Marchi (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, was there a question or was there a
complaint that the Reform Party was as guilty as sin about being
disloyal to the Canadian interest, to Canadian workers in
Montreal and across the country?
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. I find the terms we are
using about disloyalty to our country to be very strong. I would
caution all hon. members not to use those types of terms.
* * *
THE ECONOMY
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, let me tell the minister something in language so simple
that he can understand. This member is here and I am here
because we love this country.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. The hon. leader of the
opposition.
Mr. Preston Manning: It breaks our hearts to see exports
crippled by high debt and high taxes.
1440
If the minister is such a patriot, why does he not attack the
high debt and high tax policies of the government?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am happy the leader of the Reform Party raised this
issue because a series of incidents occurred lately that we need
to hear him on.
He is the one who went abroad to talk against Canada, something
that no leader of any other party in the House has done
previously. To have his research bureau send documents to a
foreign government in order to hurt Canadian workers is
unacceptable—
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. The hon. member for
Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière.
* * *
[Translation]
PRODUCTIVITY
Mr. Antoine Dubé (Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
the major problem behind the falling Canadian dollar is the low
rate of growth of business productivity over the past twenty
years or so.
There are two important factors that may influence productivity:
R&D; investment and equipment purchases.
How can this government compromise the future prosperity of this
country by bringing in a budget in which Industry Canada's R&D;
effort is lower than last year?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
hon. member's question is a bit hard to grasp.
Looking at the latest budget, one sees that there has been a
substantial increase in research and development, as there was
in the previous budget. From the productivity figures, it can
be seen that Canada is on the right track.
The preamble leading up to the member's question does not hold
up, therefore.
Mr. Antoine Dubé (Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
I would remind the Minister of Finance that this comes from an
OECD report.
With so little federal effort in R&D;, and with a devaluated
dollar, which makes imported machinery virtually unaffordable,
is there not a risk in the medium term that this government's
negligence will cost us dearly and will confirm the OECD
prediction that the standard of living in Canada will be 15%
lower than the average of the other countries?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this
is obviously an old report. It dates back to the 1980s and very
early 1990s.
This is exactly why the government has invested in research and
development, for example $1.8 billion this year. This is why we
have created the Canadian foundation for innovation. This is
why we have put so much money into medical research. This was
precisely in response to that OECD report, which is now out of
date with the Canadian reality.
* * *
[English]
GRAIN
Mr. Howard Hilstrom (Selkirk—Interlake, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, it is day three in the grain weighers strike and there
are 21 ships waiting for grain in Vancouver. Does the minister
not realize that grain farmers are charged up to $15,000 per day,
per ship while they sit in port. Farmers cannot afford to wait
another day and neither can the strikers.
Will the President of the Treasury Board declare these 70 grain
weighers essential and allow them final offer arbitration?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
we are trying to get out of the difficulties the member mentions,
but I would like to remind the Reform member that the last time
we tried to help the western farmers with their grain and we
tried to pass back to work legislation there was only one member
of the Reform Party in the House.
1445
Mr. Howard Hilstrom (Selkirk—Interlake, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, this government moves like a glacier on farm issues.
First, the agriculture minister took months and months before he
did anything on the farm income crisis. The transport minister
and the Canadian Wheat Board minister have had the Estey report
for three months and they have done nothing. I hear nothing and
I see nothing.
Now the Treasury Board minister is fiddling while the grain
weighers are off on strike. He is weighing this option, he is
weighing that option. When will he quit weighing the options and
take action?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
we have taken the action that is necessary. This union has the
right to strike. They have been on strike. We are aware of the
problems they are causing. We have improved our offer to them.
Unfortunately, at this point the union has been asking for things
that are excessive and for which Canadian taxpayers do not want
to pay. We are looking at all the options. We are doing it in
order to defend in particular western grain farmers whom the
Reform Party did not defend the last time we had to adopt
back-to-work legislation.
* * *
[Translation]
PASCAL HUDON
Mr. Ghislain Lebel (Chambly, BQ): Mr. Speaker, young Pascal
Hudon has stopped his hunger strike, but he remains in prison in
Mexico where, over the past five years, 38 Canadians have had
similar misadventures.
Could the Minister of Foreign Affairs provide an update on the
progress of steps taken by Canadian diplomatic personnel to have
our young compatriot released quickly? Does he intend to warn
Canadians of the dangers of the Mexican justice system?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we have made a number of representations to the
government of Mexico in the case of Mr. Hudon.
The matter of the sentence, specifically, is very important, but
at this point there is an appeal before Mexican courts.
Following the appeal, we will have the possibility, the option
to exercise our rights to transfer prisoners under an agreement
between Canada and Mexico.
* * *
[English]
NATIONAL REVENUE
Mrs. Karen Redman (Kitchener Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Minister of National Revenue.
Rotating strikes by the Public Service Alliance are disrupting
operations at Revenue Canada. In the midst of the tax season,
millions of Canadians want to know if this strike action is going
to delay their tax return cheques and other benefits they are
owed by the government.
Hon. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal (Minister of National Revenue,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am extremely concerned with the
disruptions as a result of the PSAC strike. Right now we are
actually behind in terms of receipt of tax returns of 900,000. As
all of us know, we process 22 million tax forms every year.
Certainly as we approach the tax season, I am extremely
concerned because we want to ensure that the refunds to Canadians
are provided on time. We are watching the situation very closely
so we can meet our responsibilities and obligations to taxpayers
across the country.
* * *
TRADE
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
you know that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. When
we see this kind of—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order. Colleagues, I think we are going
down a road where there are no winners. We are just going back
and forth. I ask the hon. member to please stick with the facts
and the question. Would he do that please.
Mr. Jason Kenney: Mr. Speaker, I do not have to
apologize, nor do any members of this party, for having
registered Canadian ships in the Barbados, Bermuda, Singapore and
the Bahamas.
Let me say that the documents—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order. Go directly to the question.
Mr. Jason Kenney: Mr. Speaker, why did the government
furnish the same Brazilian government with 46 Industry Canada
documents?
Why did the government create an illegal policy of corporate
welfare which the World Trade Organization says is against
international law? That is the question.
1450
Hon. Sergio Marchi (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the member shows a lot of chutzpah in
getting up in this place. It is one thing to be critical of the
government. It is another thing to have a debate in this House.
But it is quite a different story to turn around and give the
documents to Brazil and jeopardize our industry, our interests
and Canadian jobs. The member should apologize.
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
this kind of shameful demagoguery from this minister really is
beneath contempt. Let me tell the minister that every document—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order. We will hear the question.
Mr. Jason Kenney: Mr. Speaker, they do not want to hear
the question, just like they do not want to hear about the WTO
ruling, just like they do not want to hear about the fact that
Canada's standard of living has been falling under this
government, just like they do not want to hear about the fact
that our productivity is less than that of Mississippi.
How can the government continue to justify policy that sends
young Canadians out of this country, that puts small businesses
into bankruptcy, that takes hope away from Canadians who are
working hard? How can it justify this job killing and hope
killing tax and debt level? How can the government apologize for
that?
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. We have heard the question. We are
going to hear the answer.
Hon. Sergio Marchi (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I understand the reasons for the member's
frustration.
The member pretends and purports to stand up for Canadian youth
and interests. His party gave information to another country
against best interests. I think it rings hollow when the member
can be so disloyal and purport to represent Canadian interests.
* * *
HOUSING
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Public Works and Government
Services.
Why has the minister turned his back on thousands of leaky condo
owners in B.C. left stranded as their assets literally drain
away? In the past the minister committed to federal loans to B.C.
with interest rates so high that the province is better off
accessing them on the open market. Yesterday he offered the B.C.
municipal affairs minister more of the same: nothing.
Why would the minister offer a so-called partnership that offers
zero to leaky condo owners?
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Public Works and
Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, to the contrary, we
answered the Barrett commission immediately. We offered to the
province $75 million as recommended by the Barrett commission at
Canada bank rates. We also offered that British Columbia use CMHC
programs. We did not refuse once. We accommodated everybody and
we continue to do so.
I asked the British Columbia minister responsible for the leaky
condos issue to give me a report before I can agree or disagree
with her in terms of whether we should give a loan with reduced
interest or interest free.
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
minister is just not getting it. He knows that what he has
offered to B.C. is at an interest rate so high that it is not a
usable program. He knows that they have been negotiating for a
year and there is still no commitment from the feds. The
homeowners do not need political manoeuvring. They need action.
Will the minister at least accept responsibility to help the
thousands of co-op housing owners still under federal
responsibility who are facing the same crisis?
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Public Works and
Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker we took action
immediately. Not only did we give a loan of $75 million, we put
money in RRAP for repairs. Forty-two British Columbians used
RRAP.
1455
The Government of British Columbia did not put a penny into
RRAP. Before B.C. asks for anything, it should put its money
where its mouth is.
* * *
[Translation]
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC): Mr. Speaker, in response to a
question in the House on the replacement of the Sea King
helicopter fleet, the Minister of National Defence said that
“The matter is being dealt with at a staff level to make sure
that we get the right kind of helicopter with the right kind of
equipment”. After 20 years of research, the minister is
claiming the forces are dragging their feet.
Will the minister order the Canadian armed forces to produce the
statement of requirements this month, yes or no?
[English]
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Canadian forces personnel are examining
what is needed in terms of the helicopters, the requirements for
an air frame and the kinds of mission equipment needed to do the
job effectively. They are moving as quickly as they can to get
the statement of requirements prepared so cabinet can consider
the matter. We are doing that as quickly as possible.
[Translation]
Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, PC): Mr. Speaker, as usual,
the minister is not answering the question. This has been going
on for 20 years.
I want to praise our military personnel for holding the fort
under these circumstances: contaminated anthrax vaccine;
insurance claims totaling about $100 million in the shipbuilding
industry; cancellation of the Reserve's pension fund; and
helicopters that are at the end of their useful life. Just
yesterday, another one experienced mechanical problems. I could
go on and on.
What will the minister do: deal with the helicopters or resign?
[English]
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we are moving to bring forward a
procurement strategy with respect to the replacement of the Sea
Kings. Meanwhile we have the Sea Kings that have good
maintenance standards. We have good mechanics. I am glad the
hon. member praised our military personnel because they do keep
these aircraft in good condition to fly. And we will only fly
them if they are in good condition.
Let us focus on the great things they do on their missions. They
serve Canadians. In search and rescue for example hundreds of
lives are saved every year with the use of these helicopters and
other aircraft.
* * *
AIR SAFETY
Mrs. Sue Barnes (London West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, recent
media reports have highlighted an increasingly disturbing trend
in the incidence of air rage. Too often airlines are forced to
deal with unruly and often violent passengers.
Can the Minister of Transport tell this House what action he
will take to protect the majority of air travellers from
disruptive and even dangerous passengers?
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, the incidence of unruly air passengers is certainly
of great concern. The government has established a working group
with industry, the Canadian Union of Public Employees, the
airline industry, the Air Transport Association and police
enforcement agencies to deal with the problem.
We are looking at strategies that will come up with perhaps new
regulations, stricter enforcement and better training for ground
and flight crews. This government will not tolerate disorder in
the skies.
* * *
FIREARMS REGISTRY
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton—Melville, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, last week when I accused the government of bureaucratic
bungling and wasting $200 million, the minister's mouthpiece said
“the firearms registry was operating very effectively”. So
effectively that a firearms owner in B.C. got his new firearms
licence and was shocked to find someone else's picture on it.
How would the justice minister like it if her face showed up on
someone else's firearms licence?
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, our firearms registry system
is working quite well, thank you very much.
Let me inform the House that since December 1 we have received
and answered over 160,000 phone calls, mailed over 250,000 forms
to individuals, processed 40,000 applications for licences and
registrations, issued over 17,000 registration certificate
numbers and issued over 12,000 photo ID licences.
* * *
1500
[Translation]
PRESENCE IN GALLERY
The Speaker: I wish to draw the attention of members to the
presence in our gallery of the Hon. Wayne Gaudet, the Nova
Scotia Minister of Education, Culture and Francophone Affairs.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
[English]
The Speaker: This has been a raucous question
period, but we will be having a reception in room 216. The
Deputy Speaker and I are inviting members for a cup of coffee, Irish
style.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[Translation]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Madam Speaker, pursuant to Standing
Order 109 I have the honour to table, in both official
languages, the government's response to the 18th report of the
Standing Committee on Public Accounts entitled “Department of
National Defence: Equipping and Modernizing the Canadian Forces,
and Buying Major Capital Equipment”.
* * *
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant
to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in both
official languages, the government's response to ten petitions.
* * *
1505
[English]
PETITIONS
HUMAN RIGHTS
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36, I am pleased to present two
petitions signed by a number of Canadians, including Canadians
from my riding of Mississauga South, on the subject of human
rights.
The petitioners draw to the attention of the House that human
rights abuses continue to be rampant around the world in
countries such as Indonesia.
The petitioners also point out that Canada continues to be
recognized internationally as the champion of internationally
recognized human rights.
They therefore call upon parliament to continue to speak out
against human rights abuses and to seek to bring to justice those
responsible for such abuses.
CHILD PORNOGRAPHY
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Ref.): Madam
Speaker, it is my pleasure to present a petition today containing
almost 900 signatures from the residents of Fort Nelson, which is
in the northern end of my riding.
These citizens are deeply troubled by the recent ruling of B.C.
Justice Duncan Shaw declaring the possession of child pornography
to be legal in British Columbia. They express their combined
outrage toward both the provincial and federal governments for
their failure to protect our children.
They call upon parliament to immediately invoke the
notwithstanding clause in order to provide children with the
protection they are so obviously entitled to.
This petition represents about 30% of the eligible voters of
Fort Nelson. I therefore salute the organizers of this petition
for the very fine job they did.
MMT
Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur (Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, Lib.):
Madam Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I am honoured to
present a petition signed by residents of the Grand Bend and
Dorchester areas who urge parliament to ban the gas additive MMT,
noting that studies underway at the University of Quebec are
showing adverse health effects, especially on children and
seniors.
STANDING COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL
TRADE
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Madam
Speaker, I am pleased to present a petition on behalf of
residents of Quebec and the Peace Network of Greater Montreal.
The petitioners call upon parliament to adopt the SCFAIT report
as an official policy of the Government of Canada, to fully and
promptly implement the recommendations of the report and to
harmonize existing government positions and programs within the
spirit and intent of the report.
THE SENATE OF CANADA
Mr. Roger Gallaway (Sarnia—Lambton, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I am pleased to present a petition signed by 300 people
from my riding and the surrounding area.
The petitioners call on parliament to examine the fact that the
Senate is an undemocratic institution which costs taxpayers some
$50 million a year, is redundant and undermines the role of
people in this House. They say that there is a need to modernize
our institutions and they call upon parliament to work toward
abolishing it.
[Translation]
BILL C-68
Mr. Michel Guimond
(Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ): Madam
Speaker, I am tabling two petitions dealing with different but
related issues.
The first petition asks parliament to repeal Bill C-68, the
Firearms Act.
BILL C-304
Mr. Michel Guimond
(Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ): Madam
Speaker, I also table a second petition, signed by people from
all over Quebec, including the riding of
Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans. It calls upon
parliament to support Private Member's Bill C-304, introduced by
the hon. member for Yorkton—Melville, which would strengthen the
protection for property rights, particularly as regards the
possession of firearms.
[English]
HEPATITIS C
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Ref.): Madam Speaker,
I am pleased to present two petitions on behalf of the people of
Dauphin—Swan River.
The first petition calls on parliament to revisit the issue of
hepatitis C compensation to reflect the concerns of the citizens
of Canada and to offer a fair, compassionate and humane
compensation package to all who received infected blood.
1510
GUN CONTROL
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Ref.): Madam Speaker,
in the second petition the petitioners call on parliament to
repeal Bill C-68, to redirect the hundreds of millions of tax
dollars that are wasted on licensing responsible gun owners and
to put those dollars toward having more police on the streets,
more crime prevention programs, more suicide prevention programs,
more women's crisis centres, an anti-smuggling campaign, as well
as fighting organized crime and street gangs.
MMT
Mr. Paul Steckle (Huron—Bruce, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36, I am pleased to present on behalf
of petitioners in my riding a petition which draws to the
attention of this House that the use of the additive MMT in
gasoline creates environmental hazards. The petitioners
therefore call upon parliament to set, by the end of this
calendar year, national clean fuel standards for gasoline with
zero MMT and low sulphur content.
INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
NDP): Madam Speaker, it is an honour to rise, pursuant to
Standing Order 36, to present a petition on behalf of a number of
constituents from Kamloops who are concerned that our
international trade agreements limit the ability of the House of
Commons or provincial legislatures to pass legislation to protect
the health of Canadian citizens. The petitioners ask the House
of Commons to consider examining these international agreements
to ensure they do not limit the ability of members of parliament
to take decisions on behalf of their constituents.
THE RIGHTS OF THE CHILD
Ms. Maria Minna (Beaches—East York, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I have a petition which deals with section 43 of the
Criminal Code which allows schoolteachers, parents and those
standing in the place of a parent to use reasonable force for the
correction of pupils or children under their care. The
petitioners say that reasonable force has been interpreted by the
courts to include spanking, slapping, strapping, kicking, hitting
with belts, sticks and extension cords and causing bruises, welts
and abrasions.
The petitioners feel that this goes against the UN charter with
respect to the rights of the child as well as the Canadian
Charter of Rights and Freedoms and they call upon parliament to
end the legal approval of this harmful and discriminatory
practice by repealing section 43 of the Criminal Code.
IRAQ
Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I
rise to present yet another petition from the people in the
Peterborough area who are concerned about the people of Iraq.
The petitioners point out that peace building and human
security, already a significant element in Canada's foreign
policy, assume that enduring peace is built from the people up by
meeting their basic needs and respecting their basic rights, and
that Canada as a new member of the UN Security Council has an
added opportunity to take leadership in proposing alternative
approaches to the effort to bring about peace and stability in
Iraq and the Middle East.
The petitioners call upon parliament to strongly appeal to the
UN, the U.S. and Britain to reject any further military action
against Iraq. They call for a serious attempt to be made at
peace negotiations with Iraq and its neighbours; and further, in
order to build a stable and sustainable society in Iraq,
excluding an embargo on military goods, that all other sanctions
be listed; and further, the petitioners urge Canada to vastly
increase its effort in providing food, medicine and
infrastructure reconstruction to Iraq and to take a lead in
promoting the same through the United Nations.
* * *
[Translation]
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I ask
that all questions be allowed to stand.
[English]
Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Madam Speaker, I
stand to ask a question which I asked previously on the
production of papers. Question No. P-50 was filed on October 5,
which was exactly 162 days ago. I have yet to receive any answer
on this production of paper and I would like to know why.
Mr. Peter Adams: Madam Speaker, I am would be pleased to
answer that question under the appropriate item of Routine
Proceedings. At the moment we are concerned with Questions on
the Order Paper. I believe the member is referring to Motions
for the Production of Papers.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Shall the remaining
questions stand?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
* * *
1515
[Translation]
MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I ask
that all notices of motions for the production of papers be
allowed to stand.
[English]
Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Madam Speaker, I
rise again on a point of order. I would like to now, once again,
place the question to the hon. member with respect to a request I
made on October 5 under the production of papers. It is 162 days
since I made the request and I have yet to receive any answer.
This is the proper timing now to put the question to the hon.
member.
Mr. Peter Adams: Madam Speaker, I would be delighted to
respond to that question if the member would give us the number
concerned.
Mr. Rick Borotsik: Madam Speaker, I have given the number
twice already. Perhaps I could do it once again. P-50 is what I
am referring to at this point. It was filed on October 5, 1998
by me.
Mr. Peter Adams: Madam Speaker, I think I must have
missed P-50 before. I assure the member that I will look into
the whereabouts of motion for the production of papers No. P-50.
I know of his great interest in it.
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise on a point of order. On January 28, 1999 I submitted a
notice of motion P-70 for the production of papers in connection
with section 31 of the Elections Act and the Communist Party of
Canada.
I took this action after withdrawing a written question on the
order paper that had been there for almost a year. The
government knows very well of my interest in this subject.
Could the parliamentary secretary give me some idea of exactly
how long I have to wait to get the production of papers under
P-70?
Mr. Peter Adams: Madam Speaker, I will certainly look
into that matter as soon as possible.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Shall all the Notices
of Motions for the Production of Papers stand?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
BUDGET IMPLEMENTATION ACT, 1999
Hon. David M. Collenette (for the Minister of Finance,
Lib.) moved that Bill C-71, an act to implement certain
provisions of the budget tabled in parliament on February 16,
1999 be read the second time and referred to a committee.
Mr. Tony Valeri (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): Madam Speaker, it is my pleasure on behalf of
the government to launch the debate on second reading of Bill
C-71, the 1999 budget omnibus bill.
In the minister's budget speech last month he reminded us and
all Canadians about what budget making is really about: “It is
to make the lives of Canadians better. It is to improve their
standard of living. It is to build today for a better tomorrow,
for budgets are about more than entries in the books of a
government; they are chapters in the progress of a people”.
This vision is reflected clearly and concretely in the
legislation before us. It will add some important, impressive
pages to the record of national investment by the government. In
particular, it provides historic new funding for Canada's public
health care system, a very real aspect of the standard of living
cherished by Canadians from coast to coast to coast.
Based on agreement with the provinces, it sets out the design of
significant additional funding under the Canada child tax
benefit, the primary federal instrument for providing financial
assistance to families with children.
Of course not every measure in this bill touches so directly and
so dramatically on so many Canadians. It also includes measures
dealing with the operations of government itself. It includes
debt management, income tax administration and first nations
taxations among other initiatives.
1520
These actions should not be seen as mere footnotes to the 1999
budget vision of building today for a better tomorrow. These
reflect our continuing commitment to an effective, efficient and
fiscally responsible government. This is one of the key
foundations that has allowed us to make new investments for a
stronger economy and society and at the same time provide broad
based tax relief while remaining deficit free.
There is certainly a lot to cover in this legislation so I will
move on to the measures themselves, starting with the vital issue
of health care.
Medicare is certainly, as everyone would agree, one of our most
cherished social programs. It represents the fundamental values
of fairness and equality that define our country by ensuring that
all Canadians, regardless of their financial means, have equal
access to high quality health care services that are based on
need and not on the ability to pay. That is why action to
sustain and strengthen health care is a key priority of this
government and a central initiative in today's legislation.
Part one amends the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act
to implement an $11.5 billion increase in cash through the Canada
health and social transfer of health care. This funding marks
the largest investment this government has ever made. The
increases will be distributed on an equal per capita basis. That
means each and every Canadian in every province will receive the
same amount.
This is an investment that will help provinces deal with the
immediate concerns of Canadians about health care. Those
concerns, I believe, are articulated quite clearly, waiting
lists, crowded emergency rooms and diagnostic services. At the
same time this funding provides Canadians with longer term
stability and predictability.
Premier Romanow recognized the importance of this budget when he
said: “The important message of this budget is that it is a much
needed shot in the arm of the health care system not only in
Saskatchewan but right across the country”.
Under this legislation the Minister of Finance is authorized to
pay $3.5 billion of these funds into a trust from which they will
be distributed to the provinces at a pace they set over the three
year period beginning April 1, 1999. The further $8 billion will
be distributed through the CHST over the four year period
beginning April 1, 2000. These numbers are significant by
themselves but let me put them in a wider context for the House
and for Canadians.
When the increase in funding reaches $2.5 billion in 2001 and
2002, direct cash support from the federal government under the
CHST will total $15 billion a year. That means what is regarded
as the health care component of the CHST will be as high as it
was before the period of spending restraint. That period of
spending restraint was to help eliminate the deficit in the
mid-1990s. The story does not end there.
When we also include the growing value of the CHST tax transfers
to the cash funding, total assistance to the provinces will be
worth $30 billion in 2001 and 2002. This is a new high.
This legislation also provides for the complete elimination of
the per capita disparities in the distribution of the existing
CHST among provinces. By 2001-02 all provinces will receive
identical per capita entitlements providing equal support for
health and other social services to all Canadians.
In addition to the $11.5 billion increase in provincial
transfers for health care, the budget announced that our
government will further invest about $1.4 billion over the
remainder of this year and over the next three years in health
information systems, research, first nations and Inuit health
services and health problem prevention.
Significant increases in the equalization program will also make
more resources available to those less prosperous provinces for
public services, including health care.
Payments this year alone are expected to reach $10.7 billion.
Bill C-65, which is now in the other place, renews the
equalization program for the next five years. That means the
projected payments will be a further $5 billion higher than over
the previous five years.
1525
There is one final point I would like to make. The government
is not only increasing transfers for health care, we are also
providing provinces and territories with greatly improved
stability and predictability in funding. All major transfers,
CHST, equalization and territorial formula financing, will be
placed on a common five year track for the very first time.
The next measure I would like to highlight is the Canada child
tax benefit. Through the creation of the national child benefit
system the federal and provincial governments have embarked on a
major co-operative effort to support families and reduce child
poverty. Our purpose is to ensure that children are always
better off when their parents join the workforce. In 1997 we
announced the first federal contribution to this national
endeavour, $850 million which began flowing last July, increasing
financial support to over two million children and their
families. In the 1998 budget we announced that a further $850
million would be allocated following the consultations with the
provincial and territorial governments.
Today's legislation acts on those consultations. It also
provides a further $300 million to increase benefits for modest
and middle income families.
I should explain that the Canada child tax benefit has two key
components, the base benefit and the national child benefit
supplement. The base benefit provides a basic amount of $1,020
per child to families with incomes up to $25,921. Beyond this
threshold it is progressively phased out and becomes nil when the
family income exceeds $67,000. The national child benefit
supplement provides maximum benefits of $605 for the first child,
$405 for the second and $330 for each subsequent child to
families with incomes up to $20,921. It becomes nil when the
family income exceeds $25,921.
This bill proposes changes to both the supplement and the base
benefit. It sets out the design of the 1998 budget commitment to
provide an $850 million increase in the national child benefit
supplement payments to low income families. The implementation of
the proposed changes requires amendments to various sections of
the Income Tax Act, section 122.6 to be specific.
The amendments will increase the level of the maximum benefits
provided under the national child benefit supplement by $350 per
child in two stages, $180 in July 1999 and $170 in July 2000.
They would avoid a significant increase in the effective marginal
tax rates for modest income families by increasing the net income
level at which the supplement is fully phased out, from $25,921
to $27,750 in July 1999, and from $27,750 to $29,590 in July
2000. Finally, they would increase benefits by $184 per family
for modest and middle income families.
Overall these changes mean, for example, that a family with two
children which earns $20,000 will receive an increase benefit of
$700 for a total of $3,750 per year.
Let us look at the aggregate results. The child tax benefit
actions in our two previous budgets will ultimately provide $1.7
billion for the children of low income families. This legislation
builds on that effort, not just by establishing the design for
the $850 million allocated in 1998 but by delivering a further
$300 million to enhance the child tax benefit for modest and
middle income families. As a result 100,000 more Canadian
families will become eligible for all or part of the base
benefit.
This issue, support for Canadian children in need, takes me
directly to the next aspect of this bill that I would like to
cover. It takes actions to ensure that the full amount of the
single supplement of the goods and services tax credit also goes
to single parents whose income does not exceed $25,921.
1530
The government will increase GST credit benefits for low income
single parents to complement the national child benefit by
providing them with the full value of the supplement. It will be
effective on July 1, 1999 and will provide additional benefits to
300,000 single parent families.
The measures relating to the GST take me directly to the next
set of measures contained in the legislation. In case hon.
members have not noticed, the bill comprises a number of various
measures so I am moving from one to the next as quickly as I can.
This section deals with the taxation powers of first nations. In
our budget plan the government once again expressed its
willingness to continue discussions and to put into effect
taxation arrangements with first nations that indicate an
interest in exercising taxation powers. This builds on the last
two years of budget commitment to put into effect taxation
arrangements with interested first nations which resulted in
taxation authorities for three British Columbia first nations:
the Cowichan Tribe, the West Bank First Nation and Kamloops
Indian Band.
Today's legislation will further facilitate first nation
taxation in a number of ways. The West Bank First Nation would
be authorized to levy a 7% GST style tax on the sale of fuel sold
on its reserve. This would take place in addition to its
existing tobacco and alcoholic beverages tax authority.
I would also like to address another area where today's
legislation involves the administration of taxation, specifically
citing the example of the Nova Scotia workers compensation board.
The amendment contained in the legislation will permit
co-operation in audits and the exchange of program information
between Revenue Canada and the WCB to help ensure that amounts
owed are paid.
These actions are a direct result of the service agreement
signed last October between Revenue Canada and Nova Scotia. These
two levels of government are pursuing opportunities for
partnership in tax administration, including joint employer
remittance for payroll deduction and WCB payments.
The administration agreement will result in improved fairness
and make compliance easier for business. We have often heard
about this in the House and from other associations interested in
ensuring the compliance burden is reduced. This is an example
where various levels of government are joining together to reduce
the compliance burden. It also reduces government overlap and
duplication.
Some of the most important measures in today's legislation deal
with investments our government is making in national health care
and certainly in the welfare of children. We have not and we
will not lose sight of a very fundamental concern: the critical
importance of continuing good financial management. The
investments we have made will not jeopardize our commitments to
balanced budgets.
We often hear in the House and from Canadians in our
constituencies that we still carry the painful legacy of decades
of deficit financing in the form of a massive debt burden that
costs us over $40 billion a year in interest payments. It is
money that cannot go to further tax reduction. It is money that
cannot go to additional investments in strengthening our economy
and social safety net. That is why we have implemented our debt
reduction plan. That is why we are also committed to managing
the debt we carry as cost effectively as possible.
Today's legislation includes further measures to help achieve
this goal. The amendments cover two principal areas. The first
is clarifying the authority governing government borrowing and
distribution of its debt. The second is modernizing government
financial and risk management powers. Many of these are quite
technical and often just confirm or clarify existing practices of
powers, but let me just highlight a few.
Section 46 of the existing FAA provides the government with
standing authority to refinance maturing debt. The government
proposes to amend this section to clarify that maturing debt
could only be refinanced within a given fiscal year. Accordingly,
any debt that is not refinanced by the end of a fiscal year
lapses and cannot be refinanced in the next fiscal year.
It is a practice the government has followed for many years. The
legislation is in response to interpretation questions raised
with respect to the existing wording.
1535
I should be very clear that the changes do not give the
government more authority to borrow. New borrowing authority to
finance a deficit must be obtained and would be obtained, as it
has been in the past, through a borrowing authority bill.
Another amendment clarifies and enhances the legislative basis
pertaining to auctions of Government of Canada securities. Last
fall the government reached an agreement with the distributors of
its debt on new rules in terms of participation at auctions of
government securities. The amendments set out in more detail the
minister's authority in respect of these auctions. The new rules
are designed to enhance market integrity and to maintain a well
functioning market in Government of Canada securities which
benefits all taxpayers through lower debt costs.
There is another measure I would like to highlight because it
deals with the issue of parliamentary accountability. I know
members opposite are very interested in parliamentary
accountability, as are all Canadians. The legislation will amend
the FAA to enhance reporting to parliament on debt management
activities and future debt management plans.
The proposed amendments ensure that parliament formally receives
information annually on the government debt management program
and plans, thus strengthening the reporting structure on an
important government activity.
The government is also proposing to repeal the Borrowing
Authority Act, 1996-97. Currently there is $4 billion of
non-lapsing borrowing authority contained in this act to provide
for contingencies such as foreign exchange requirements. The
government proposes to transfer this unused borrowing authority
to the budget implementation bill. No change in authority is
being provided by this transfer.
As members can see, today's legislation is truly wide ranging. I
have been more brief than I would have liked in dealing with some
of the measures addressed so far, but as we continue this debate
I expect that some of my colleagues will go into further detail
on aspects of the legislation that interest or concern them most.
Some of the other issues the bill deals with very briefly now
will be acts like the Superannuation Act which applies to the
public service, the Canadian forces and the Royal Canadian
Mounted Police. This change would improve future pension
benefits for these individuals. There is an amendment to the
basic pension formula to provide for benefits to be calculated on
a five year average salary and one for integrating benefits for
retirees when they become eligible for CPP or QPP benefits.
The legislation will also amend the Patent Act to clarify the
authority of the Minister of Health to pay provinces moneys
collected by the Patented Medicine Price Review Board from
excessive pricing of products by patented manufacturers.
We are also amending the Agricultural Marketing Programs Act. A
number of members in the House often speak out for the farming
community and for rural parts of Canada. We are amending this
act so that we can clarify the scope of federal government
guarantees to financial institutions that fund advanced payments
to agricultural producers under the act.
I should add a note of explanation. Although the intent was to
provide direct unconditional guarantees to the lending
institutions, the Agricultural Marketing Programs Act needs to be
clarified for the federal government to provide such guarantees.
Under the current legislation direct guarantees are conditional
upon having producer organizations meet the terms and conditions
stated in the act, which results in higher risk for lenders and
interest rates on the advances that adversely affects our farming
community.
Therefore the government is taking measures in the 1999 budget
to correct the wording of the AMPA and to ensure that advance
payments can be provided to agricultural producers at the lowest
possible cost. This measure is another example of federal
government commitment to agricultural producers and rural
Canadians.
Finally, we are amending the European Bank for Reconstruction
and Development Act to provide the Minister of Finance with the
authority to undertake the financial operations necessary to meet
our commitments to the EBRD.
1540
These are but a few highlights of Bill C-71, the 1999 budget
omnibus bill. It does not cover every measure that the February
budget proposed. For example, the broad based income tax cuts
which were announced will be confirmed in separate legislation.
Even the actions in the legislation by themselves reflect the
commitment to a balanced approach in budget planning and budget
making which has been the hallmark of the government since coming
to office.
The Minister of Finance said in the budget speech:
The social and economic needs of a nation are not separate. They
are not in conflict. The balanced pursuit of both is key to the
health and wealth of our country.
That is why, with the federal books in balance, we have brought
before the House a bill that delivers historic investment in an
area which Canadians have made very clear is their key priority.
We all know that key priority is health care and that it
continues our work to assist children in need or at risk.
We should be very clear that nothing we have proposed will
undercut another vital aspect of balance: our commitment to
providing Canadians with balanced budgets this year and in the
years ahead.
This type of fiscal responsibility will allow us to sustain the
social and economic investments we must make to maintain an
economic environment which keeps interest rates low. We need to
continue, as we have stated over and over in the House, and the
Minister of Finance outside the House, the process of tax relief
we all desire.
We know as a government and as parliamentarians that Canadians
never want to return to the time of deficit financing when we
were burdening our children and future generations with debt and
adding to that debt each and every year. We have finally turned
the corner. We now have an opportunity to build as we go forward
in a very balanced and very responsible way.
As we move forward in the consultations for the next budget
Canadians will come forward and clearly articulate their
priorities. I am sure and quite confident that Canadians, as
they have done in the past, will continue to provide a very
balanced and thoughtful approach to making budgets for this great
country. It will be one that will involve reinvestment both in
the social arena and in the economic arena. It will ensure that
we continue to pay down debt, that we stay balanced, and that we
provide the kind of tax relief Canadians are looking for in a
responsible way, which Canadians will clearly support. We have
done so in the past. I submit that we will continue to do so in
the future.
Many other members will be speaking to the 1999 budget omnibus
bill. It contains a number of various elements contained in the
budget speech, certainly in areas which reflect what Canadians
told us in the prebudget consultations. The success of this
budget and the success of the bill are embedded in the success
Canadians have experienced and will continue to experience.
It is an opportunity for Canadians to contribute to the process
and have their priorities heard. Many Canadians from my
constituency and from other constituencies across the country
will provide the input and necessary insight which clearly
reflect where they want to go. They can rest assured their
insight and priorities will continue to be reflected in what the
government does in budgets to come.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I
think you would find unanimous consent to split my time with the
my Irish friend from Saanich—Gulf Islands.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The hon. member is
seeking consent of the House to split his time. Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
1545
Mr. Monte Solberg: Madam Speaker, I thank my colleagues
for agreeing to that.
I rise to address Bill C-71, an act to implement certain
provisions tabled in the budget on February 16. This legislation
is an omnibus bill, maybe an ominous bill too. It deals with a
number of different issues.
It makes it difficult for an opposition party to vote on a bill
like this one when there are so many different things in it.
There are parts of it we agree with. There are parts we
completely disagree with. It points to the need to have an
agreement that legislation tabled in the House be roughly of one
kind so that when we address these things we can vote against the
legislation knowing that we are voting against a core group of
things that we oppose, or support, if there are supportable
things in it.
As my colleague from the Liberal Party pointed out, a number of
different things are dealt with in this bill. The biggest issues
in the bill have to do with health care and the child tax
benefit. The Reform Party has already told the government that we
support putting more money into health care. We have been
arguing for that for a long time. We disagree completely though
with how this was done, which is why we cannot support this
legislation, unfortunately. We disagree with it on a couple of
counts.
We are in a situation where the government cut a tremendous
amount of money out of health care initially, somewhere in the
range of over $20 billion. Now it is putting $11.5 billion back
in over a five year period, and the government is seeking to get
some kind of credit for doing that. This is another example of
the Canadian public paying more in taxes and getting far less in
the form of health care. We disagree with that.
The government should have been up front with Canadians instead
of playing this shell game as it does so often. There are many,
many examples of how the government plays this shell game.
Whether it is with employment insurance, the Canada pension plan,
or whatever it is, the government starts out giving people more
benefits and then takes them away. It gives with one hand and
takes away with the other and expects to get credit. That is
wrong. The government should not be rewarded for that. We
disagree completely with the government's approach on health care
in doing that.
The government has some supportable measures in the legislation.
In this budget the government has a chance to send a powerful
message to the Canadian public that it understands the difficult
position Canadians are in.
We had a surplus this year. It would have been a much larger
surplus than it actually turned out to be because the government
in its wisdom decided to go on a spending spree again. We had a
spending target of $104.5 billion. The government went almost $8
billion over budget in its spending. This meant that all of a
sudden there was no money left for substantive tax relief. There
was no money left for substantive debt reduction. And the
government continues to spend on programs that are absolutely
counterproductive, programs that distort the Canadian economy,
that hold us back as a country in today's global economy.
The government should go through its spending with a fine-tooth
comb. Money which is being spent on low priority items should be
taken away from those items and spent on things like health care,
things like fixing up national defence. In many ways it has
become a laughingstock, not because of the tremendous effort of
the soldiers and people who make up our Canadian armed forces.
They do an outstanding job but they are ill equipped. That money
should have gone back into ensuring that our soldiers who are in
places like Kosovo have proper equipment. Sadly that did not
happen.
Our criticism goes beyond that. Canadians want tax relief. They
are demanding it.
They did not get it in this budget. We do not see it in Bill
C-71 at all.
1550
We know from recent events that the government, in its open
moments when it assumes that no one is listening, acknowledges
that Canada has a serious problem when it comes to the issue of
taxation. The situation today is we are one of the highest taxed
nations in the world. If Liberal members doubt my word on that,
then I invite them to consider what their own industry minister
said just three weeks ago when he spoke to the Empire Club. I
want to read from some of the slides he put up when he spoke to
the Empire Club.
The minister was addressing the issue of standard of living. He
pointed out that since 1987, Canada's standard of living has
increased by only 7%. In the United States it increased by 17%.
According to the slide: “The income gap between the U.S. and
Canada is 30% and growing, $37,239 versus $28,000”. That is a
$9,000 difference in income between Canada and the U.S.
The industry minister was reading from statistics prepared by
Statistics Canada. It was not the Reform Party. This was the
government's industry minister levelling this kind of criticism
at the performance of the Canadian economy. And guess what? For
the last five years this government has been in charge of the
Canadian economy. It is an admission that the government has
done a horrible job.
The slide on productivity reads: “Impact of productivity.
Canada has the lowest rate of growth in productivity in the
G-7”. Out of all the major industrialized world, the industry
minister told the Empire Club that Canada has the lowest rate of
growth in productivity.
As we heard yesterday at a conference sponsored by a former
Liberal cabinet minister, the pollster for the Liberals, Michael
Marzolini, pointed out that productivity is tied intimately to
the standard of living of Canadians. There is a direct
connection between productivity and standard of living. We have
the lowest rate of growth in productivity, meaning we have the
lowest rate of growth in standard of living. This is the Liberal
pollster at the Liberal productivity conference. And the Liberal
industry minister was saying all these things. This was not the
Reform Party. This was the government pointing these things out.
We go to the next slide, productivity payoff: “Our falling
productivity has resulted in lower incomes, $7,000 per capita”.
That is not cumulative. That is not from 1979 to 1997 if we add
it all up. No. What we are talking about is that in 1997, the
difference between Canada and the U.S., because we have fallen
behind in our productivity, is now $7,000 per person per year.
The industry minister went on to point out that it works out to
$28,000 per family of four difference in income if we had kept
our productivity even with the United States, but we have not.
That means the Prime Minister, the finance minister, the
industry minister and the whole government are responsible for
engineering an economy that has left the average family $28,000
poorer than they would have been otherwise. That is an
absolutely shameful fact and the government actually spoke about
it at this conference.
It is time to make some fundamental changes. In order to do
that we have to begin to lower the crippling tax burden that the
government levels on Canadians each and every day.
The industry minister also pointed out that we have much higher
taxes in Canada than they do in the United States. Our taxes are
130% higher than taxes in the United States. Taxes in the U.S.
are around 28.5% of GDP according to the industry minister. Ours
are 36.8%, 130% higher.
1555
This points to the need to make some changes in order to ensure
that we have the standard of living we used to have in Canada.
We used to be the economic equal of the United States. We have
become second class economic citizens compared to our U.S.
cousins. That is unacceptable.
The government's plan over the last five years has been to
anesthetize the public and allow people to think everything is
moving along the way it should be. We hear this don't worry, be
happy message from the Prime Minister almost every week. I think
my friends around the House would agree with that.
We know it is simply not so. We know we are falling further and
further and further behind the United States. It should not
happen. We are as good as they are. We are better in so many
ways. We can do so many things much better than the United
States.
We have companies that are world leaders, but what do we see? We
see companies like Nortel, a great leader in the
telecommunications industry, in the high tech field, moving more
and more of its operations into the United States. That is a
condemnation of the policies of the government. It is
unbelievable that the government sits idly by.
No, that is not quite accurate. The government does not sit
idly by. Instead it trots out these rinky-dink little programs
saying, “We will have this program, we will have that program”
expecting to reverse the terrible trend that is bankrupting
families. Instead, the government should be cutting taxes.
There is hardly an economist left in the country who does not
understand that we have become uncompetitive when it comes to
taxes. The result is that our productivity continues to fall.
Our standard of living continues to fall. We see that every day.
I bet there is not a member of parliament in this place who
cannot tell a story about a family member, a daughter, a son, or
a friend who has left Canada to go to the United States. Why do
they go? There are four very compelling reasons.
First, there are more jobs in the United States especially for
people with great skills in those high tech fields. Our high
tech industry is held back by the government but in the United
States it is booming. It is absolutely going crazy. There are
all kinds of jobs. We hear stories about the entire class or a
great chunk of the class from Waterloo being recruited by
Microsoft to work at Microsoft in Seattle. We hear those stories
all the time. There are more jobs.
Second, the pay is better. When there is an unemployment rate
in the United States of 4.3%, companies in the U.S. are desperate
to find good workers. They pay a lot more money. Even when
comparing American dollars to Canadian dollars, companies are
still paying a higher numerical value in the United States for
those workers.
Third, people in the United States get to keep more of the money
they earn. As the industry minister has pointed out based on the
government's own data, our taxes are far higher than the taxes in
the United States. The industry minister hounded that point home
at the Empire Club.
Fourth, the U.S. dollar is worth so much more than ours. Ours
is now at 65 cents, near a record low. People are able to buy a
lot more with those dollars.
Those are four big reasons the government indirectly has given
to young people to leave Canada to go to the United States. It
is disgraceful that that happens. It is an economic tragedy.
More than that, it is a human tragedy. We are losing our family
members to places outside Canada, not only to the United States
but to other countries around the world as well. Ireland is
attracting many people, the U.K., and on and on it goes.
It is a human tragedy. We would like to keep our families
together. We would like our young people to have the option to
continue their high tech careers in Toronto, Kanata, Calgary, or
wherever. We just do not see that happening because the
government punishes innovation. It punishes people who have
obtained skills. The result is that we lose these young people
which is a great tragedy.
1600
Lately the government has been attempting to hang its hat on a
study done by KPMG Consulting which the government alleges
suggests that Canada is somehow far more competitive than the
rest of the world in terms of attracting business to Canada.
When we look at the fine print in that KPMG study two things jump
out. The first is that the single biggest reason people should
come to Canada is because we have low wages. For government
members to get to the point where they will stand in the House of
Commons to boast about Canada having extraordinarily low wages so
others should come here to set up shop speaks of the desperation
of the government. It demonstrates real desperation when they
get to the point of essentially saying “Come to Canada because
Canadians will work for peanuts”.
Second, they say that others should come to Canada because we
have an extraordinarily weak currency. The currency is the
barometer of the health of the economy. We can take where the
currency is and essentially say that is where the standard of
living is. As the currency strengthens, so does the standard of
living. We saw our currency fall to record lows in July and the
government did nothing about it. In fact the Prime Minister
almost bragged about it. He said “It is good for exports. No
problem”. He has said that over and over again during the
course of his career.
Contrarily, when the finance minister was running for the
leadership of the Liberal Party several years ago he berated
Michael Wilson, the Conservative finance minister at the time,
because the dollar had dipped below 80 cents. We yearn for the
days when it was only 80 cents. We yearn for those days because
again the dollar reflects the standard of living of Canadians.
When the dollar is low the standard of living is low.
If anyone doubts for a moment that Canadians have seen their
standard of living drop, then do not listen to my words, listen
to the words of the industry minister of the Government of Canada
who pointed out in his speech to the Empire Club that Canada has
seen its standard of living fall below the poorest of the deep
southern American states. Canada's standard of living is below
that of Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Arkansas and Louisiana.
That is a fact.
The industry minister told the Empire Club that a few weeks ago
and the government continues to stick its head in the sand a
pretend everything is okay. “Don't worry, be happy”. That is
all we hear from the government.
It had a chance to rectify this problem. It has been running
surpluses. If it had kept the line on spending we would have
money to start lowering taxes and to increase productivity and
the prosperity and standard of living of Canadians.
We desperately need that in Canada today. We are tired of being
second class economic citizens compared to the United State. We
used to have a dollar that was stronger. We used to have a
standard of living that was stronger. We used to have
unemployment that was lower. That has all gone by the wayside.
Since we have had this government, and Tory and Liberal
governments before it, we have seen the erosion.
It is time to reverse that and there is a way to do it. The way
is to hold the line on spending, run up big surpluses and cut
taxes. What happens when we cut taxes? Revenues increase. Those
who doubt for a moment what I am saying should look at Ontario
where revenues have increased since it cut taxes. On St.
Patrick's Day, look at Ireland and the Irish miracle. It cut
taxes and its economy has grown at over 5% a year for several
years now. It has extraordinarily low income tax rates and tax
rates of all kinds, to the point where it is actually able to
provide free tuition to everybody in Ireland today. That is how
much extra revenue it is bringing in as a result of cutting taxes
because of the increased business activity.
1605
The government is way off track with Bill C-71. It is way off
track with its budget in general. It should have taken the
opportunity to start cutting taxes, to leave more money in the
pockets of homemakers, business people and entrepreneurs. Those
are the people who create the jobs. Those are the people who
deserve a break.
I encourage my friends across the way to not be so hidebound and
to consider for a moment that there might be some good ideas
coming not only from the other side, not only from Canadians, but
even from the Department of Industry in the comments made by the
industry minister not so long ago.
At the end of the day, Canadians deserve this tax relief. We
should be getting it from this government.
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
that is a pretty tough act to follow, but I will see what I can
do. I have a lot of admiration for my colleague and friend from
Medicine Hat.
We are talking about budget implementation and I will focus on
different aspects of the budget.
The day of reckoning is coming. Within a few years this Liberal
government is going to see that Canadians cannot be given a snow
job. This is really about brainwashing, not about budgeting.
Government spin doctors are famous for their tinkering. All they
know how to do is tinker.
Let us just look at the record of this Liberal government. I
want to stick to the facts. In 1999 the average Canadian will
pay $2,000 more in taxes than they paid in 1993. At the very
same time, health cuts will amount to $1,500 per person. Over
the last three years there have been $1,500 in health care cuts
per person.
What is the government's record? Let us look at the facts.
What has it done? I can give hon. members examples.
Instead of looking at funding hip replacements or surgery,
taxpayers are providing funding of $100,000 for a government
grant on a book of dumb blonde jokes. The list goes on and on
forever.
The government has slashed university funding while protecting
$4 billion in pork barrel regional development grants over the
last four years.
This is an interesting one. RCMP services have been cut. We
have seen that it is devastating. The RCMP in British Columbia
has been cut down to the bare bones. Vacancies are not being
filled. As the government continues to cut money that is
available to the RCMP, it gets millions and millions of dollars
from the illegal trade subsidies it gives to profitable
corporations.
That was no more apparent than when we were speaking during
question period today. I see that members opposite are wondering
about this. The government continues with these illegal trade
subsidies, and that is exactly what they are. The WTO ruled on
it. It is part of the government's taxation policy to give
Canadian taxpayers' dollars away to profitable corporations.
Of course government members stand to make a lot of noise about
how patriotic they are. They accuse the official opposition of
siding with Brazil, which is absolute and utter nonsense. The
WTO ruling is the result of the government's taxation policies.
It wants to give tax dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars, to
profitable corporations. It is absolute and utter nonsense.
If government members are really so patriotic and committed to
Canadians, why do they continue to gouge the pockets of every
single Canadian in this country? Why do they continue with
sneaky, hidden tax increases, one after the other? They are
endless, and they are all sneaky, hidden tax increases.
Then government members claim these victories after they have
raised taxes and raked the wallets and pocketbooks of Canadians,
who are struggling from payday to payday.
Government members claim they had to make tough decisions so
they could balance the budget. They have no right to claim for
one second that they did one thing to balance this budget.
The credit goes entirely to every single Canadian taxpayer who
has been paying $2,000 more in taxes each year since 1993. The
credit goes to those families who have suffered irreversible,
incomprehensible harm as their loved ones have died waiting on
hospital lists. That is who the credit really goes to for
balancing this budget.
1610
It was not the Liberal government that made tough decisions for
Canadian families; it was the Canadian families themselves who
had to balance their paycheques every month to scrape by, dip
into their RRSPs, cash in their savings and struggle to make ends
meet. It was not the government.
We have heard the Minister of Finance stand in this House to
claim how proud he is that he has cut taxes. Sure, there might
have been some minor tinkering to provide slight tax cuts, but
what he is not telling us is that the increases have been
greater. In fact if we take into account payroll taxes, Canada
pension plan premiums and bracket creep, taxes this year alone
have increased by $2.2 billion.
I will focus the rest of my talk on a couple of issues. I will
deal with brain drain and how we have shattered the hopes and
aspirations of young Canadians. The other area that I feel very
passionate about is tax discrimination, tax unfairness, what we
are doing to the Canadian family and how the government attempts
to justify it.
We have all heard that a family of four with an income of
$50,000, with one parent who chooses to stay at home, will pay
$4,000 more in taxes than that of a family with the same income
with two parents working. Let us look at the net effect. How
does that affect these families?
The tax policies are discriminatory. I will use my sister for
an example. My sister is a schoolteacher in Invermere. She has
three small girls who are just starting elementary school. Her
husband James decided to put his career on hold. He stayed at
home with the three girls while my sister went off to teach.
They felt it was very important that one parent be at home until
the girls started school, so James put his career on hold and my
sister went to work. He made personal sacrifices that we should
be commending him for and not penalizing him under our current
tax act. That is exactly what we are doing. There is no
question about it.
I would like to quote some statements made by members opposite.
The member for Vancouver Kingsway said in a finance committee
hearing on October 8, 1998, when she was talking to parents who
had chosen to put their careers on hold, chosen to stay at home
and who place some value in parenting, “Perhaps individually you
have low self-esteem for many reasons. Most women can combine
career and family life. We know it is very difficult. A lot of
times people just take the easy way out”. Those have to be the
most insulting comments to make to someone who chooses to stay at
home to look after their family. It is an absolute disgrace
coming from the government, with all its fanfare and hoopla and
all of its wining and dining of the financial institutions in
trying to spin this budget.
All the spin doctors out there have failed to recognize some very
basic flaws in our tax act.
1615
I am pleased to see that the province of Alberta has taken a
leadership role in the country with respect to this issue. It is
rectifying the issue as far as it can within its provincial
jurisdiction to bring back fairness. It is breaking new ground
and it is high time.
The issue was brought to the attention of the Minister of
Finance over and over again. The Reform Party of Canada has been
fighting the issue since it first became an official party of the
House in 1993. It has had supply day motions and this debate has
been going on and on. The government has again buried its head
in the sand and has refused to recognize it. It is one of the
most offensive areas I have found in tax policy.
What does the government do? It only tinkers. Its day of
reckoning is coming. These are the hard core facts. I know the
government does not like them. It is not very proud of them but
they are the facts and it cannot get away from them.
Although I do not have the form in front of me I can recite form
T778, the child care deduction form, because I know it so well.
It gets even worse. If only one parent of a two parent family is
working there are three ways according to the tax form, which is
available on the Internet at website www.rc.gc.ca, to claim the
child deduction.
First, they have to be mentally or physically incapable of
looking after children. The second one is absolutely amazing.
They have to be convicted criminals who have spent at least two
weeks in jail in 1998. Can we imagine a convicted criminal who
has spent two weeks in jail being given priority to claim the
child care deduction? That is a fact. It is right on the tax
form. It is absolutely outrageous.
The third way is if the parents are separated or divorced for at
least 90 days. It is no good if they want to stay together. It
is no good if they are happily married. However, if they want to
separate, they can follow the Liberal government tax form. I
encourage everyone to look it up on the Internet. They can go to
any post office in Canada and ask for a T778 form, the child care
deduction form. It is absolutely incomprehensible.
What do the Liberals really think of their budget? What do they
really think about the Canadian economy? How proud are they? I
will refer to some quotes of the Minister of Industry on February
18, 1999. We have already heard from him in the House today.
This is what he thinks the Canadian economy is doing, one of the
Prime Minister's henchmen, the frontline people who go out and do
the messaging:
How can we maintain or, better still, increase our standard of
living? Since 1987 we have done okay.
That is debatable. He continued:
Our standard of living has grown by 7%, but when we look our
American friends we see that at the same time they have increased
their standard of living by 17%.
In other words it is 30% higher in the U.S. than in Canada or
$37,239 compared to $28,234. I repeat that this was the Minister
of Industry speaking, the government's henchman, the spokesperson
who goes out and brags about the record of government.
1620
Then he went on to say:
So what does all this mean? Moving back to our standard of
living, which is the whole point of this address, the
productivity in Canada has grown 1.2% per year faster, which is a
gap between U.S. and Canadian growth. According to the OECD per
capita income would have been $7,000 a year higher. For a family
of four this is a $28,000 shortfall.
The Prime Minister's henchmen are going out and doing their
messaging to promote the budget, yet they are admitting that
their economic policies have been an absolute, utter and complete
failure.
There are some lessons to be learned from the American system.
Obviously in 100 square miles in the U.S. and 100 square miles in
Canada we will not be able to deliver the same services for the
same price, but the difference does not have to be 10 times.
Our government's policies are driving us to bankruptcy. Our
government's taxation policies are driving Canadian businesses
out of Canada every minute of every day. Our government's
policies on taxation are shattering the hopes and aspirations of
all young Canadians. They are going across the border by the
thousands. Where are they going? It is to our neighbours to the
south. They are not going down there for the sunshine. They are
not going down there to live in their cities for their clean air.
They are going down there because they do not see any future way
of fulfilling their aspirations and dreams in this country.
That is why I am standing in the House today. I ask any member
of the House to challenge that I am not a patriotic Canadian and
that I am not here to fight for Canada, to make this country a
better place in which to live. That is why I am here and I made
sacrifices to be here. We have to offer a vision so that young
Canadians will be able to fulfil their dreams in this country and
not have them shattered by our taxation policies.
Let us go back 25 years to when I left high school. People
today do not have the same opportunities I had. When I finished
high school I could easily get work. It was no problem. I was
never out of work a day. I had good paying jobs and was able to
fund myself all the way through university without assistance. I
could do it because there were opportunities. There was
excitement. We were ready to get an education and get into the
working field. We could hardly wait to start going after our
dreams.
Young Canadians from coast to coast to coast in the country do
not see the same opportunities. They are trying to find minimum
wage jobs. They are graduating from university with students
loans in excess of $50,000. They are calling my office and
asking what they can do and how to get out of that mess. They
have degrees. They cannot get jobs. They owe $50,000. They ask
if they can declare bankruptcy. They ask for guidance. They do
not see any opportunities to fulfil their dreams.
Why? It is because of the government's tax, tax, tax and spend,
spend, spend policies. We have known about this for a long time,
as has the government. It likes to tinker a bit, fudge a few
numbers, shuffle the books and then say it has brought in a great
budget. It is all brainwashing. It is all nonsense.
I will leave government members with a few thoughts of which I
want them to take note. I am standing here along with my
colleagues to fight for Canada, to make the country a better
place so that young Canadians can fulfil their aspirations, hopes
and dreams; so that families can make the right decisions and can
choose to stay at home to raise their families without being
discriminated against by absolutely insane government taxation
policy.
1625
Every Canadian family would be better off if Reformers could
just change a few of these things, if they could convince the
government to get its head out of the sand and look into the
future as opposed to tinkering.
We are speaking on deaf ears across the way but the day of
reckoning will come. Canadians will see the so-called wonderful
tax decreases the government keeps talking about. I will leave
them with this thought: please phone me, please give me a call.
I ask them to take their paycheque stubs to their members of
parliament next month or in three or six months from now and show
them the hundreds of dollars of tax relief. At the end of the
day Canadians will not get one thin dime more. That is a
disgrace.
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker (Mr. McClelland): It is my duty, pursuant to
Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be
raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the
hon. member for Halifax West, Veterans Affairs; the hon. member
for Winnipeg North Centre, Tobacco.
* * *
[English]
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Bob Kilger (Stormont—Dundas—Charlottenburgh, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, some discussions have taken place among all parties
and the member for Wild Rose concerning the taking of the
division of Bill C-219 scheduled at the conclusion of Private
Members' Business today. I believe you would find consent for
the following motion:
[Translation]
That at the conclusion of today's debate on C-219, all questions
necessary to dispose of the said motion for second reading shall
be deemed put, a recorded division deemed requested and deferred
until Tuesday, March 23, 1999, at the expiry of Private Members'
Business.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is it the pleasure
of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to)
* * *
[Translation]
BUDGET IMPLEMENTATION ACT, 1999
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-71, an
act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in
Parliament on February 16, 1999, be now read the second time and
referred to a committee.
Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it is a
pleasure to speak to Bill C-71 now before the House, which seeks
to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled last month
in the House.
It is difficult to find positive things to say about this bill,
since the budget alluded, of course, to the centralizing of the
health care system, does nothing for the unemployed and is
giving the agriculture sector nothing but crumbs. I want to show
how this government managed to eliminate its deficit.
First, let us look at the employment insurance program. Members
opposite are very stubborn; we keep telling them that the system
is not working, that it is choking the unemployed. Let me give
you an example. As members know, in recent years, the employment
insurance benefits that the unemployed were not getting have
been used to increase the amount in the employment insurance
fund which, in turn, was used by the Minister of Finance to
eliminate the deficit.
In the 1999 budget, the government confirms that it
misappropriated the $7 billion EI surplus in 1998-99 and that it
intends to repeat the performance with the anticipated $5
billion surplus in 1999-2000.
Adding up all the billions that were taken from the unemployed,
by the end of this year—and this is a real bug for the
jobless—amounts to a $26 billion surplus, which has made the
regions, including Quebec, poorer and put the jobless in a scary
situation that still persists. These people have no hope that
the system might some day meet their expectations.
1630
When I rose a few weeks ago to speak to the budget, I had made a
long list of suggestions to improve the employment insurance
plan. However, when we on this side speak to the other side, I
do not know, it is as if there is an invisible wall or some
comprehension problem, but they do not understand common sense.
They really do not understand common sense.
We are hoping that, finally, the Liberals opposite will
understand what the Bloc Quebecois wants and what all the
workers in Quebec and Canada are calling for.
First of all, improved eligibility: the end of discrimination
against certain categories of unemployed because of their so
called regularity on the labour market; a reduction from the
current 700 hours to 300 hours the requirement for special
illness, maternity or parental benefits; an increase in the
number of weeks of benefit from 45 to 50; the abolition of the
so called intensity rule, which progressively cuts benefit rates
from 55% to 50% for contributors regularly drawing employment
insurance.
As we know, like a diet, a plan can be hard on people. Sometimes
people lose weight when they go on one. But the unemployed lose
money. They really lose money. Since 1993, this government has
ceaselessly attacked society's most disadvantaged.
This government, and especially the Minister of Finance, has
become very good at creative bookkeeping.
That brings us to the transparency of the EI fund. At a press
conference last winter, the four parties, including the Bloc
Quebecois, got together and called for the EI account to be kept
separate from government operations and for the Employment
Insurance Commission, not the minister, to be given sole
authority over EI premium rates.
Every December, the minister trots out so-called good news that
bears no resemblance to what unemployed workers want.
We also called for the rules that reduce the amount of benefits
to be eliminated. We asked that the freeze on maximum insurable
earnings be lifted, the 52 week base period be restored, and the
calculation of benefits be based on the number of weeks required
to qualify during which earnings are highest.
These are interesting and constructive suggestions, but nothing
is happening. On the contrary, the government continues to dip
into the EI surplus. Why? So that it can lower the deficit
and, worse still, interfere in provincial jurisdictions. It is
getting very good at this.
This was clear in the September 1997 throne speech written by a
marketing specialist, the sole objective of which was to make
sure the maple leaf appeared on everything.
Whether in provincial, municipal or rural jurisdictions,
everywhere we turn, there is the maple leaf. With the
millennium scholarships, we were even afraid we would have to
have the Prime Minister's face on the documents.
What do you suppose would happen to a Canadian dollar with the
Prime Minister's face on it?
An hon. member: It would have lost value.
Mr. Odina Desrochers: It would be worth less than 50 cents.
How much energy and money is expended by this government in an
ongoing battle against its own constitution? When it gets
involved in health and the municipalities, it is directly
interfering in areas of provincial jurisdiction. When it comes
in with the millennium scholarships, it is interfering with
education.
Who are the losers with the millennium scholarships? The
younger generation, the students, who will find themselves
dealing with two systems—once again, duplication in Quebec—and
will lose financially. While the federal government doggedly
insists on not respecting Quebec's jurisdiction over education,
who is it that loses out? The young people.
1635
There is a shortfall of hundreds of millions of dollars.
Everything possible has been done to get negotiations under way
again, but on an equal footing, not between the president of
Bell Canada and the new Minister of Education, but between the
Minister of Human Resources Development and the Minister of
Education. This government is trying to shirk its
responsibilities by delegating a representative of a private
company. Let us get serious, now.
Getting back to employment insurance, I would like to repeat to
this government the essential demands of the Bloc Quebecois.
The employment insurance fund must no longer be used as a tax on
employment.
The way it is operating, employment insurance has become an
indirect tax, a tax that is taken from the pockets of the
unemployed and from employers, and one that has no positive
benefits for them.
Let us consider the following example. A person has insurance
for his car. He is told “If you have an accident at
Drummondville, you will be covered, but if it is at
Lac-Saint-Jean, you will not”. The EI system is as ridiculous as
that.
In the Quebec City region, crossing the river changes the EI
rate. The result of this is that no one gets the same amount,
no one is entitled to the same number of weeks of employment
insurance. Where is the fairness and justice in such a system?
What is more, administration of the employment insurance account
needs to be depoliticized.
If the federal government has a hard time grasping common sense,
it need only give this responsibility to employers and workers.
We have introduced a private member's bill on this issue. Here
again, the four parties on this side of the House have approved
this approach, but, on the other side, nothing is happening.
I would now like to discuss the second point of my speech, which
concerns health, or, if members want to put in that way, the
initial ravages of the social union. The cuts are in the amount
of $33 billion rather than $42 billion. The budget announced an
additional $11.5 billion in transfers over five years, which
means $2 billion in 1999-00 and $9 billion until 2003-04.
Furthermore, the government also announced an additional $1.4
billion in new health care spending, which tramples on and
overlaps provincial jurisdictions.
The $2 billion announced for all of Canada represents only just
the amount that was cut for Quebec alone in health care. It is
a third of the $6.3 billion shortfall the federal government
announced last month.
Let us talk figures. They are the experts in this on the other
side of the House. They are also experts in having a hard time
recognizing the real things.
The initial plan for cuts represented a cumulative shortfall of
$48 billion between 1993-94 and 2002-03. The announcement in the
1997 election was a little election treat. They are good at
that. I will discuss later the little election treats in rural
development and where the money goes. You will see that, in
patronage, these folks are hard to beat.
During the 1997 election campaign, the Liberals announced an
increase of $12.5 billion and said the cumulative cut would be
only be $42 billion. This is not what I call a treat.
Let us now turn our attention to the recent social union
framework agreement. This was a great blackmail operation
conducted in the Prime Minister's office, along with provinces
that will soon hold an election, except one. It is very easy to
understand why Ontario received $1 billion. That province is
well represented in this House.
1640
I can understand why the province of Ontario would be favoured,
but I have a hard time figuring out why Liberal members from
Quebec would be so gullible. What is going on in that caucus?
They are asleep. Quebec MPs fall bow down to Ontario and guess
who loses? Quebec. Ontario receives $1 billion, while Quebec
gets $150 million. Is this justice? Is this a worthwhile social
union?
I can certainly understand why the Premier of Quebec, Lucien
Bouchard, dismissed the agreement that was proposed to first
ministers. It is impossible to understand why this government is
always trying to interfere in areas of provincial jurisdiction.
I will now give the long list of future federal intrusions in
health.
Mr. Réginald Bélair: Let's get the Kleenex out.
Mr. Odina Desrochers: It bothers them a lot on the other side to
hear the truth. But do not worry, I am used to that. I once
worked in the telecommunications industry and I am not the
nervous type.
Talking about intrusions, the national health surveillance
network comes to mind. This network will be used to identify
outbreaks of serious illnesses and will link Canadian
laboratories electronically. This is an investment of $75
million over a three-year period. Health is a provincial
jurisdiction, it is a Quebec jurisdiction.
There is also the establishment of the Canada health network.
This network will provide Canadians with access to information
about health issues ranging from nutrition to colds, from breast
cancer to diabetes, and so on. It will cost another $75 million
over three years. Health comes under the jurisdiction of
Quebec, not of Canada.
Then there is the Canadian institute for health information, a
bunch of medical snoops who will visit CLSCs and hospitals and
report to the Minister of Health on how he can take money, go
over the heads of the provinces and of Quebec, and invest it.
The new mandate of the Canadian institute for health information
will be to file periodic reports on the health of Canadians and
the health system, including waiting lists, doctor and
specialist assignments and the most effective courses of
treatment.
During a meeting of the Standing Committee on Agriculture and
Agri-Food dealing with rural development—since we are talking
about health—I learned that a $70,000 investment in community
health was being made in Saint-Étienne-des-Grès. How odd that this
is right near, if not right in, the riding of the Prime
Minister. I do not know whether the nurse or the person in
charge of this project is a generous contributor to the Liberal
Party of Canada. There are 68 rural development projects for a
total of $3.8 million in areas of provincial jurisdiction. They
excel at this.
There is more. There are telehealth and telecare pilot
projects. These are virtual CLSCs. There are accountability
measures and the NURSE fund. Now they are into training. But
the federal government and the Government of Quebec signed a
training agreement. This has been ignored.
What about prenatal nutrition, to the tune of $75 million? This
duplicates what is being done by CLSCs.
I will now look at how the federal Liberals went about
eliminating the deficit. There is nothing tricky about it: the
provinces, the sick, and unemployed workers were stuck with the
bill. In 1993, the federal deficit stood at $42 billion.
1645
This is the unfortunate heritage of the Conservative government,
but we must not forget that before the Conservatives tere were
the Trudeau Liberals, John Turner and great experts in
economics. The result was a growing deficit.
In 1993, the present Prime Minister said it would be impossible
for him to eliminate this deficit in under five years, without
cutting social programs. The first solution was to cut social
programs. And what did the Liberals do as soon as they took
over? They systematically demolished social programs.
From 1994 to 1999, federal government program expenditures were
reduced by $7.5 billion.
Transfer payments to the provinces alone were slashed by $6.3
billion, or 84% of total reductions in program expenditures.
Thus, close to 80% of federal budget cuts were shouldered by the
provinces. These federal cuts to front line services represent
more than 75 cents of every dollar of cuts to health and
education in Quebec.
And what about the unemployed? This is another Liberal policy
aimed at eliminating the federal deficit. There is nothing
complicated about it. The employment insurance program is
reformed, the rules are modified, and as a result fewer than 40%
of unemployed workers paying into the program are now eligible
to draw benefits. And where does the surplus go? First of all
into the employment insurance fund, and later into the pocket of
the finance minister.
When one thinks of it, employment insurance has become surplus
insurance for the government and poverty insurance for workers
who lose their jobs.
Nowadays, is there anything more scary than losing one's job?
There have been so many cuts in offices that the unemployed are
now dealing with recordings. There is not much sensitivity
involved. People wait. They do not know what they will get. The
act is so complex. They are told “Use tape number one to find
out how to fill your form. Use tape number two to know your
rights. Use tape number three to kill time”. Finally, when the
time comes to meet an officer, the afternoon is gone. It is 4:30
p.m. They are then told “Sir, Madam, come back tomorrow”.
And the lists get longer. I have received many complaints in my
riding office concerning the 1-800 number.
The line is always busy. Yet, the telephone operators are
located in Shawinigan, in the riding of Saint-Maurice. That
service should work. After all, it is in the Prime Minister's
riding.
I will now refer to a recent study by two UQAM professors,
Pierre Fortin and Pierre-Yves Crémieux, which shows that, because
of the recent employment insurance reforms, Quebec's welfare
roles alone will eventually swell by 200,000.
The impoverishment of Quebec and the regions is the result of
the employment insurance program. The data from Statistics
Canada support this forecast, given that, between 1989 and 1997,
the percentage of unemployed receiving EI benefits dropped from
83% down to 42%. The situation is even more dramatic in the case
of young people. More than three out of every four young people
do not qualify for employment insurance, even though all young
workers contribute to the program.
I want to say a word about the tax reduction, about the crumbs
that this government offered in its latest budget. The Bloc
Quebecois had asked for a targeted tax reduction that would have
helped those who paid off the deficit, namely the unemployed,
the young, the sick and the poor in our society.
1650
As regards the elimination of the 3% surtax for middle class
people earning between $30,000 and $60,000, the reductions in
income tax amount to $163 per person. In this budget, the poor
were left to their own devices, with tax reductions of only $90.
The minister announced an increase in the basic personal
exemption from $6,456 to $7,131, a tax reduction of $115 per
single taxpayer living alone. That really boosts the economy,
and helps a parent cope with difficulties.
I have spoken at length of the unemployed and health care, I
will now speak about rural development.
The Minister of Finance announced cuts worth $100 million to
funds earmarked for regional development. Since its arrival in
1993, this government has completely forgotten Quebec regions in
its budgets. That is understandable, since a recent survey
published last week in the Globe and Mail revealed that 77% of
people did not know who was responsible for regional
development, despite government propaganda.
Every time they provide a bit of money in Bloc ridings, we are
not invited. They arrive on the sly. The Minister of Human
Resources Development was by two or three weeks ago on the
pretext of making big local and regional announcements. All he
wanted to do was impress the local media with the benefits of
the budget.
The press conference was over in 20 minutes, of which 15 were
taken up with questions and five with announcements. The media
reported that there was nothing in the budget for unemployed
workers, middle income earners, or health. On the contrary,
there is plenty for health when it comes to Quebec. But once
again this was misunderstood.
In conclusion, I would like to mention another cute patronage
trick for interfering in the affairs of the provinces. It is
called rural development. There is an indepartmental working
group composed of 26 federal departments and agencies. Their
job is quite simply to find ways of interfering in provincial
jurisdictions where they have no business. That is their
mandate.
At least they are frank about it, which is rare for members
opposite. They say that the rural development goals for the
next few years are to ensure follow-up—$3.8 million for 68 small
projects with no structure—; co-operate better with other levels
of government. I wonder what that is all about because they are
going to be interfering in municipal and provincial
jurisdictions. Another goal is to make programs more flexible
and—here comes the fine print—increase the federal presence. This
was on one of the slides shown last Tuesday.
They also want to listen. Listen to what? Listen to the
demands of people who no longer know which way is up. The
response is to increase funding and to go over the heads of
municipalities, provinces and agencies serving the public.
Let me address these projects, particularly the $70,000 to
develop a model for rural community health care co-operatives.
The other project—and the minister was asked to define rural
community last Tuesday—is a $20,000 investment in community
organizations in the municipalities of Longueuil, Saint-Hubert,
Boucherville and Chambly.
These communities are located across from Montreal, on the south
shore. It is an urban area, and the government would have us
believe that it will put money into rural development in that
area. It is nothing but a joke.
1655
In conclusion, when talking about implementing certain
provisions of the budget, it is very difficult for us, in the
Bloc Quebecois, to vote in favour, because our basic demands
were dismissed out of hand by the Minister of Finance, the Prime
Minister and the federal Liberals.
[English]
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
NDP): Mr. Speaker, it is a delight to have an opportunity to
speak to Bill C-71, an act to implement certain provisions of the
budget tabled in parliament on February 16, 1999. The reason it
is a delight to have a chance to participate in this debate is to
clarify some of the mythology surrounding the most recent budget.
I realize that politics has a lot to do with perception.
Perception is a fancy word for mythology, or misleading I
suspect.
I have had some interesting advice. Watching today is a very
important individual, Ange Vautour, who is age 75. Today is his
birthday. He is very interested in the outcome of today's
deliberations. As well, my father who is in his mid-nineties, is
watching today. He gave me all kinds of advice in terms of what
to include in my comments on the budget. They are two very
special individuals, and I suspect many other very special
individuals are watching today's proceedings.
I have listened with interest to the debates to this point. The
picture from the constituency level is that this was a health
care budget. In other words, a lot of people said that the
government took major steps to once again fund Canada's health
care system. In a sense that is true, but only in a sense. When
we look at the fine print of this budget, we notice that if we
wait for not this year, not next year, not the year after, not
the year after that, and not the following year, but the
following year, the funding the provinces will get will be at the
same level as it was way back in 1995.
This is a bit of magic, a bit of hocus-pocus. This is moving
the little shell between hats when the government says it is
reinstating a whole lot of money into health care, which is true,
but after all is said and done, many years from now, we are still
way back in the mid-1990s in terms of funding for health care.
Let us admit today that we are still going to be seriously
underfunded in terms of developing the health care system that
Canadians wish.
There are two items that I remember my friends in the Liberal
Party promised Canadians. They promised, and promised. They
said, “If you elect Liberals, we are going to have a decent home
care program across the country. If you elect Liberals, we are
going to have a decent pharmacare program. As a matter of fact,
we will have a national pharmacare program and we are going to
wind it into our medicare system”.
I noticed that the budget was relatively mute on two items. The
Liberals do not talk much about home care any more. They do not
talk much about pharmacare. I suspect they can talk about it all
they want if they do not put any money into it. Mr. Speaker, you
might want to have home care, I might want to have home care and
my friend from P.E.I. might want to have home care, but if there
is no money for home care, what the heck do we do? This is an
empty promise. This is a promise that means nothing.
It is fair to say we are not going to have a pharmacare program
in this country for two reasons. The most obvious one is that
the government puts no money into it. But there is another one
and it is called NAFTA.
Under the provisions of NAFTA if we were actually going to
impose a pharmacare program that made sense, we would make a lot
of multinational pharmaceutical companies unhappy, particularly
those based in the United States. They would say to us, “If you
want to impose a national pharmacare program to give the people
of Canada a break when it comes to buying their prescription
drugs and so on, you have to compensate us for all the lost
profits, billions and billions of dollars in lost profits”.
No government is going to be in a fiscal position to do that.
The promise on home care and pharmacare in particular is
mythology that has been perpetuated by this government. It
continues to be perpetuated, but I do not think Canadians are
being fooled in the least.
1700
I have some very specific concerns I want to raise about this
bill today. I want to talk for a moment about a fundamental
problem that exists in this House, with this government, with
this parliament and in this country.
I know all of us have encountered people saying they do not
trust us, they trust politicians. They say we will let them
down. They do not believe we will do the things we say we will
do. They feel we do not listen to them. They feel alienated from
the process.
There is good reason for having those feelings. The government
has let people down. They are alienated. Do members think a
person living in Kamloops or in Chicoutimi or in Moose Jaw or in
Thunder Bay is involved in the decision making of this government
at all?
An hon. member: No.
Mr. Nelson Riis: My friend says no. He is a very smart
individual.
An hon. member: Windsor either.
Mr. Nelson Riis: Or in Windsor. People do not believe
they are involved. They know they are left out of the circle.
Before I get into proof, who makes the decisions? Here and now,
what we have in this great country is not a parliamentary
democracy. We have it in name but in reality we have an elected
dictatorship where every few years Canadians elect a dictator.
That person then decides they know what is best for everyone
else.
This really started with our old pal Brian Mulroney. He came in
here and said “I'm really a bright person”. I just thought of
a joke. We do not hear many jokes in this place. These can be
told about Brian Mulroney but you can load almost anybody else
in.
Brian Mulroney and the member for Halifax were being invited to
a speaking engagement in Vancouver. At the airport in Ottawa
there was a young fellow standing there feeling very dejected.
Brian said “What's wrong with you?” The fellow said “I'm a Boy
Scout and I am supposed to be at a jamboree in Vancouver. I
missed my flight”. Brian said “Join us. We're heading for
Vancouver”.
The plane took off and just about over Thunder Bay it got into
real trouble. The pilot said “Folks, I have bad news. We're
going down. We're going to crash. You have to jump out but
there are only two parachutes. So you will have to fight it out
between you”.
Brian Mulroney jumps up and says “Listen, I'm obviously the
smartest guy in the world. I have to get down there and save
this country”. So out he goes.
The Boy Scout says “Listen, Ms. McDonough, you're the head of
one of the most progressive political parties in the country.
You have great ideas. I think you should go”. She turns to the
Boy Scout and says “No, we can both jump out. We can both take
parachutes”.
The Boy Scout said “What about Mr. Mulroney? Didn't he jump
out?” “Yes, but the smartest guy in Canada grabbed your pack
sack”.
Brian Mulroney started the trend to make this place somewhat
irrelevant. I do not think he liked parliament. He found it a
nuisance and so on but he had to go through the motions. They
used closure, time allocation and so on to get legislation
through the House.
Then the Liberals came in. I was hopeful. I thought they have a
much longer tradition of parliament, particularly with the
leadership of the cabinet, and they would use closure less often.
Lo and behold, they use it more often.
An hon. member: Bob Rae used closure all the time.
Mr. Nelson Riis: The world is not perfect. The reality
is closure, closure, closure.
Who is in charge? My friends opposite in the back who are
making suggestions for my speech, are they in charge? No, they
are not. Is the cabinet in charge? No, the cabinet is not in
charge. Who is in charge of this country? Not the Speaker. He
is too nice a guy.
An hon. member: The United States government.
Mr. Nelson Riis: That is interesting. My friend says the
United States government. There is a lot of truth,
unfortunately, in that. We will come back to that in a moment.
The person in charge sits over there. He is called the Minister
of Finance. He actually decides now on major social policy in
the country.
Let us go back one budget. In last year's budget we were having
this debate. One of the big items was the millennium scholarship
fund.
1705
The government said “This is what we are doing for education.
We thought this through. We have education policy. We want to
find ways and means of encouraging young people and others back
into the school system, whether it be university, vocational
school, college, technical school, an institute or whatever. We
have this great idea. Its called the millennium scholarship fund
and it will provide support for at least 7% of the students of
this country”. What about the other 93%? The funds have been
cut to universities and colleges. The government got out of the
student loan program. For those 7% of students there is a
scholarship fund.
They made educational policy. Was it the backbenchers on the
Liberal side? No. It certainly was not on this side. Did we
have a single debate in the House of Commons on education? Not a
minute of debate.
The Minister of Finance decided that he knows best and he knows
what educational policy should be. He introduced it. He is a
very smart man. He is a very nice guy. I do not think he knows
anything about educational policy. Why should he? He is a
financier. That is his responsibility. That is the beginning.
We then asked what does this country need. It requires a major
overhaul of our health care system. We all agree that health
care is a crucial priority. Who decides on health care policy?
Is it the Minister of Health? No, it is the Minister of Finance.
He decides how much money is going into the system.
A few years ago he said “We will gut the health care system,
slash the guts out of the health care system”. The government
did, almost to the point this was an emergency situation. Now
the minister says they have made a mistake. Things have to be
changed so they will start refunding health care. Five years
from now we will be at the level we were five years ago.
The Minister of Finance is determining health care policy in
this great country. There is something wrong with this. This is
just the beginning. I could speak for the next two hours about
the Minister of Finance being in charge of everything in this
country. Cabinet is not in charge and neither is the Prime
Minister.
I will use one other example because it is a hot issue, the
replacement to the Young Offenders Act. The government brought
in the new Young Offenders Act which has various provisions and
ideas, some very positive, some questionable, some negative.
Nevertheless it is a reasonable try at doing a better job in
terms of dealing with young offenders. I will give the
government credit for that.
However, what is lacking? Are ideas lacking? No. Are new
initiatives lacking? No. Are new proposals lacking? No. There
is no money to implement the program. We could have all the
programs, all the policies, all the new initiatives, all the new
legislation, new regulations we want, but if no money is
available to deliver to the provinces, what good is it?
That is the same problem we had with the last Young Offenders
Act. One of the main problems we had with the last Young
Offenders Act was that it had all types of suggestions that
judges could take but there was no substance. There were no
opportunities at the local level. Lawyers could argue on behalf
of their young offender clients about the most appropriate way to
deal with an offence but the judge would say he had no choice but
to throw the kid in jail. That is the only choice the judge
would have. Unfortunately after this new legislation is in
place, if that takes place, it will be the same situation.
If my recollection serves me, there is $200 million available
over the next three years to implement all the provisions in this
new act. It is pittance. It is an impossibility to implement
the provisions of this new Young Offenders Act. That is the
mythology. Who decides this? Who decides how young offenders
are dealt with? Is it the Minister of Justice? No. Is it the
solicitor general? No. Is it anybody in cabinet? Yes, the
Minister of Finance.
There is something wrong with this picture. I can see members
shaking their heads. I think we all agree. There is something
wrong with the system. We have to change this so that the
Minister of Finance can spread his decision making around
slightly.
This was also to be a budget about productivity, acknowledging
that we need to improve our productivity. I think we all agree
there are areas of the economy where productivity is important.
When we say the word productivity, most Canadians watching will
start to panic. When people hear the word productivity they
think of layoffs, salary cuts and overtime. In other words,
productivity does not mean what productivity is. Productivity
means tougher times for most working people.
1710
When we talk about productivity, I will take my hat off and
acknowledge that the government put aside some money for research
and development, to fund some of the major research agencies of
the country. That was a positive step. By and large those funds
are destined for the large multinational corporations. That is
fair enough if some incentive will get them moving into more
highly productive areas.
Where the real innovation and creativity takes place is in the
small businesses of the country, in the medium sized businesses
that are out there on the cutting edge of technological change,
the innovators. Therein lies a real serious funding problem.
The government would rather fund Bombardier, which probably does
not really need any help, than to fund that small business in New
Brunswick, northern Manitoba or wherever. That funding is not
there. That is a serious problem we have to confront through
either the tax system, granting agencies or whatever, to
recognize that is where the real creativity is.
I will identify the fundamental fault with this legislation in
this budget. What kind of successful life would you have if you
did not have a clue where you were going, if you did not have a
clue what you would try to do in the next two months, two years
or whatever?
It is fair to say that for anyone to be a successful individual,
however success is defined, there needs to be a bit of a road
map. Goals and strategies have to be set. There has to be a
plan, a business plan as the business community would call it. A
person with a business idea, whether a farmer, small
entrepreneur, home based business or self-employed, before going
into any lending institution has to have a thought through
business plan in order to qualify for support or funding.
That is the first thing anybody asks for. What is your plan?
Where are you going?
Mr. Speaker, I know you are very successful in a whole variety
of areas and I know the reason you are successful is you know how
to write a good business plan. Successful business people know
how to write a successful business plan because it is
fundamental. Your plan on politics may be a little warped but
that is something we can discuss another time, Mr. Speaker.
We need a plan to be successful as individuals. There has to be
a plan to be successful in business. There has to be a plan to
be successful as any organization, whether it is the Red Cross,
the Boy Scouts, a minor hockey team or whatever. There has to be
a plan to be successful. We all agree with this fundamental
premise.
What about as a country? Do we need a plan to be successful as
a country or can we just mumble, fumble and jumble our way
through? That is what we are doing. Most Canadians if asked
what they thought the game plan for our federal government is
would probably laugh or shudder “oh my God, I think it is this
but I am not sure”.
Why would Canadians not be aware of what our plan as a country
is? We do not have a plan. We have no idea where we will be six
months from now. Look at the budget itself. When most countries
put together a budget their minister of finance has the guts to
say “This is where I think our projects are going for at least
the next five years. For five years this is what we project our
revenues to be and for five years this is what we predict our
expenditures to be”.
We do not dare go there as a country. We might foray out a
couple of years. That is it. Even those, let us face it, are
ultra conservative proposals. Even the Minister of Finance
agrees we have no plan. We do not plan ahead and therefore we
are in trouble. How can we evaluate a budget that is not based on
anything?
One thing in this budget that really concerns me is the revenue
agency being created, this monstrous form of government that will
have access in everybody's lives, and this legislation
facilitates that.
They say we will share information about people. This is the
ultimate in big brother, sharing information between provincial
governments and federal government departments about individuals.
If this agency were accountable, at least to the elected
representatives of Canada, I would not feel so bad but it will
operate at arm's length, virtually like a crown corporation.
There is not accountability. It can intrude in Canadian lives
all over the place and nobody will be able to ask the minister
what is going on because it will be set aside. It will be like
Canada Post.
Has anyone ever tried to find out what Canada Post does to
wrecked letters or why the mail is not delivered? It is almost
impossible.
1715
This provision is something we should be waving some flags
about. If the government is going to go ahead with this new
revenue agency, it must have some real transparency and
accountability to parliament and the elected representatives of
the people of Canada.
I have a whole host of other items but I am running out of time.
I will close by saying that we are not going to support this
bill. We have too many concerns about it. I would not say that
there is nothing good in it. There is obviously something good
in any budget. There are a number of positive initiatives but
overall it misses the mark. It does not reflect the views and
concerns of Canadians. And frankly, I do not want a whole
country run by a dictator called Paul Martin.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The hon. member is a
very experienced parliamentarian. As all other members know, we
do not refer to other members except by their office or their
riding.
Mr. Tony Valeri (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, not only would I hope the hon.
member would take into consideration what you have just said, but
also on the way he characterized the Minister of Finance I hope
when he gets the opportunity to stand up he will correct what he
said and retract that comment.
Toward the latter part of his comments I am assuming the hon.
member talked about how he would build budgets. There has been
some success on this side of the House in building budgets, with
two year rolling targets, a contingency reserve, and prudence in
the budgets ensuring that we stay with balanced budgets. We took
that $42 billion down to a $3.5 billion surplus.
The hon. member obviously does not agree with the way balanced
budgets are being built in this country, so I would offer him up
the opportunity. How would he build the mechanics of the budget?
He sits on the finance committee, he has heard from Canadians. He
talks about rolling out the five year plans. The last time this
country got itself involved in rolling out five year plans was
when the Conservative Party was in government and we ended up
with a $42 billion deficit.
How does the NDP build budgets? It obviously does not agree
with the success we have had. Let us give it a chance to express
how it would build budgets.
Mr. Nelson Riis: Mr. Speaker, that is a very reasonable
question.
First, I do take back referring to the Minister of Finance by
his name. I was referring to the Minister of Finance. And so
there is no mistaking, if the word dictator can be used in a
positive sense, that is what I was trying to do. Perhaps I could
use a different term. I will be serious with my hon. friend
because I respect his views and the work he does, but too much
power now sits with one cabinet minister. There is too much
influence.
My friend knows because I heard his comments earlier that this
budget gives the Minister of Finance and the Department of
Finance even more authority and even greater power in terms of
disbursing funds. This very clear trend is a serious concern
which I share with him and which others have shared with me. His
criticism was well placed. It was a term that could be
misconstrued. I did not mean it in a pejorative sense. I meant
it in a neutral sense with dictator meaning one single person
deciding on government policy.
My friend said that a major accomplishment of this government
was balancing the books. I do not think a single Canadian would
say that was not the case, but let us acknowledge how that
balance was achieved. That balance was achieved by dipping into
the EI fund. By dipping into the EI fund and taking billions of
dollars in employment insurance premiums, it was easy to balance
the budget. The other way to balance the budget was to devastate
the health care system. My friends over here would suggest there
were some tax issues involved in this as well.
Any government can balance the budget if it slashes the meaning
out of a society. Anybody can do that. If the government shut
down every university and every hospital, it would balance the
budget. It is that simple. But what kind of a country is that?
What kind of a government is that?
Not only does the government dip into the EI fund, which some
people have suggested is illegal to do, but it is now going to
dip into the pension fund of the federal government employees.
The government is going to dip into $37 billion of a pension fund
for which it has no authority. The government is going to have to
bring in legislation to be given that authority.
My second point was to acknowledge that the surplus comes with a
great deal of pain.
Were the people who were most pained by this budget cutting
rewarded now that there is a surplus? Were the homeless
recognized? No. Were the unemployed recognized? No. Were the
people who need affordable housing recognized? No. Were the
farmers acknowledged? No. Were the RCMP recognized? No. Were
the people in the fisheries industry recognized? No. Were the
miners recognized? No. Were the forest workers recognized? No.
Who was recognized?
1720
By the time we eliminate all of those groups, the nurses were
hacked out, the doctors, the teachers, the professors, and on and
on and on, there was a handful of people who liked this budget.
My suspicion is that they probably hang around Bay Street.
I think I made my points.
Ms. Angela Vautour (Beauséjour—Petitcodiac, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, on behalf of a constituent of mine by the name of Ange
Vautour who is celebrating his 75th birthday today, my father
whom I love dearly, could my colleague explain to both me and my
father what is in the budget, and again how the deficit was paid?
The Reform Party mentions that we are attracting companies here
because of the low wages. I would like my colleague to explain
to the House what exactly the Liberal government has done to make
sure that people are forced to work not only for minimum salary,
but I have a feeling that a lot of people in this country are
working below minimum salary.
Mr. Nelson Riis: Mr. Speaker, it was a thoughtful
question, one I suspect a lot of people are asking.
We have heard in the House repeatedly that one of the attractive
features to lure foreign corporations to Canada is the low wages
they are able to pay. This seems to be some kind of good news.
It is a rather warped sense of good news.
One of the realities is that the radical changes to the
employment insurance program resulted in that the majority of
Canadians who paid into that program are receiving no benefits at
all.
Mr. Speaker, imagine what it would be like for you to lose your
job. When people lose their jobs and have no income, they become
vulnerable to people who could exploit them in terms of paying
for their services of one kind or another.
I am aware, and I know the hon. member is as well, that because
of the changes to the employment insurance program, when some
people get their employment insurance cheque, the amount is
actually as low as $32, $50, $75. Mr. Speaker, I know you are a
very frugal man, but imagine trying to live for a couple of weeks
on $32. This is tough. Anybody who is trying to live on $32 a
week, $100 a week or $200 a week will be vulnerable to people who
are prepared to exploit the worker's skills, background, talent
and so on. That is one of the reasons so many people today are
in a very difficult situation.
That was one reason. The other reason is our taxation. It is
fair to say that Canadians by and large with a few exceptions are
paying too much tax, income tax and other kinds of taxes. It goes
back to my friend who asked what we would propose, and that is a
tax cut that would benefit every single man, woman and child in
the country, not this group or that group.
There is a tax cut that every single person would benefit from.
Even a little kid buying a teddy bear would benefit, or a parent
purchasing a needed vehicle or a washing machine would benefit
from a cut in the GST. This would benefit every single person.
Guess what the people who would benefit most from a cut in the
GST would do with that saved money in their pockets. They would
spend it. People are pushed to the wall and their savings are
minimal, if they have any at all. They would spend those dollars.
Those dollars would go from business to business to business
around that little community. They would support the small and
medium size businesses. Those dollars would circulate around and
around in the community benefiting the small businesses which
hire people and provide employment opportunities.
But instead, those dollars are coming to Ottawa to be used for
some questionable purposes from time to time.
1725
I do not know whether I have been thorough in my answer but
those are some of the reasons Canadians are having a tough time
getting by and why employers are able to pay such low wages and
salaries.
Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Mr. Speaker, I
listened with great interest to the comments of my colleague from
Kamloops on the budget implementation act.
We have considerable concerns, and I think all members of the
House do, for the future of young Canadians. The task before us
is to prepare policies that will create a more prosperous future
for young Canadians.
I am greatly concerned about the loss of so many young Canadians
to the U.S. We have seen an unprecedented level of brain drain
over the last several years. We have lost talented young
Canadians to the U.S. Every sign is that that will increase
unless we address some fundamental policies, part of which is tax
policies.
One hon. member referred to the birthday of her father today.
Today is the birthday of my nephew Seth who is three years old.
I think of young Canadians like Seth and how they will prosper in
the future. We have to work very hard to ensure that the
policies we create are sound, not just in terms of what is good
for today, but what is good for the future.
This government seems to be very intent on providing labels for
its budgets. The label for last year's budget I believe was the
education budget. All members in the House recognized student
indebtedness as being a huge issue. Student debts grew by 100%
from 1993 to last year, from an average of $12,000 to about
$25,000 last year. In the year after the education budget which
was to address the issue of student debt, over 12,000 Canadian
graduates declared bankruptcy.
I am a parliamentarian who is very concerned about the future of
health care. If last year's budget was the education budget and
the result a year after its implementation was 12,000 graduates
declaring bankruptcy, I would appreciate the hon. member's
insight on what he predicts to be the effect of this year's
health care budget on Canadians and on our beleaguered health
care system. The health care system has been absolutely
devastated and decimated by the Draconian slash and cut approach
of the Liberal government.
What does the hon. member expect to be the effect over the next
12 months when Canadians need a stronger health care system? Can
they expect a significant improvement based on this government's
reinvestment? He mentioned that in five years the federal
government will have only reached the 1995 level of federal
government investment in health care. Yet the government spent
$3.6 million of Canadian taxpayers' money to tell them this was a
great budget for health care. Does the hon. member feel that
perhaps that money should have been spent on health care as
opposed to telling Canadians about this health care reinvestment
which by and large is smoke and mirrors?
Mr. Nelson Riis: Mr. Speaker, once again it was a very
thoughtful question from my friend from Kings—Hants. I think he
has answered the question himself.
He described the mythology surrounding this so-called health
care budget, just like last year's education budget. He
acknowledged that very little moneys will go into the provincial
coffers for health care next year as a result of this budget.
My short answer to him is that I would be surprised if Canadians
noticed any change at all in Canada's health care system as a
result of this federal budget. He pointed out a major flaw in
the mythology the government has been trying to perpetuate.
I think we all agree with his suggestion, and I know my leader
has said the same thing, about the millions of dollars the
government has spent trying to tell people that it has done a
good job in health care. If that money was going directly into
health care, it would be money better spent.
May I suggest that if a government or an individual is doing a
good job, there is no need to advertise that they are doing a
good job. People understand that. They will know that. But if
they are not doing a good job, then they have to advertise.
1730
The Deputy Speaker: It being 5.30 p.m., the House will
now proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business as
listed on today's order paper.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[English]
CRIMINAL CODE
The House resumed from December 7, 1998, consideration of the
motion that Bill C-219, an act to amend the Criminal Code (using
or operating a stolen motor vehicle in the commission of an
offence), be read the second time and referred to a committee.
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
it gives me a great deal of pleasure to rise and speak to this
bill, particularly because of the person who has proposed it.
The member for Wild Rose has been absolutely tireless in his
efforts on behalf of not only the people in his constituency but
indeed all Canadians in bringing more common sense to the whole
area of justice in Canada. He has a tireless history in our
party of continuously working on behalf of the justice issue, and
I commend him for that.
Bill C-219 is an act to amend the Criminal Code by adding the
following after section 334:
Every one who, while committing an offence or while attempting to
commit an offence or during flight after committing or attempting
to commit an offence, operates or uses a motor vehicle that he
has stolen or knows to have been stolen is guilty of an
indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term of one
year.
If I could refer to the October 20 edition of Hansard, in
presenting the bill my colleague from Wild Rose said:
My private member's bill amends the Criminal Code so that a
person guilty of an indictable offence must be sentenced to one
year imprisonment if the person operates or uses a motor vehicle
that the person has stolen or knows has been stolen while
committing or attempting to commit an offence.
He made the point that the bill put the police chiefs'
resolution into practice. As I mentioned, my colleague is
tireless in making sure he is in tune not only with the Canadian
public but indeed with the Canadian Police Association and the
Chiefs of Police. He said:
This bill puts the police chiefs' resolution into practice. It
will clearly serve as a deterrent to those considering these
types of criminal acts.
He also noted:
There are three primary motivations for auto theft: one,
joyriding; two, transportation for criminal purposes such as
breaking and entering, robbery, and drive-by shootings; and
three, when a car is stripped for parts or exported to other
provinces or countries for sale.
I was particularly interested to note that the parliamentary
secretary to the justice minister then followed my colleague and
said:
I put emphasis on the word must because there is nowhere in Bill
C-219 or in the comments of my colleague that says this is a
mandatory sentence. She was wrong. It must not be a sentence to
one year's imprisonment. She went on further to state:
This offence must be served consecutively to any other punishment
imposed on the person for an offence arising out of the same
event or series of events.
This is again wrong. There is nothing in Bill C-219 that
prescribes whether it be consecutive or concurrent.
In the short time that I have had the privilege of being the
solicitor general critic for the Reform Party I have been on a
very rapid up-ramp of learning. What I have learned is the
difference between consecutive and concurrent.
The parliamentary secretary is suggesting that even if a person
was found guilty of this offence, should the bill indeed pass
through the House and become law, he or she would be liable for
one year's imprisonment. That would simply be served at the same
time as the penalty for whatever other criminal offence was being
served.
1735
In effect the minister is prejudging that the court system would
say it is one extra charge and it will be served concurrently. It
would be served at exactly the same time so it would not make any
difference. What a waste of time if that were the case, and
indeed it is not.
If that were the case it would be a pattern much like the
government has chosen for very violent offences, very violent
rapes and sexual offences, very violent multiple murders and all
the events surrounding multiple murders. Basically the
government has gone into the business of volume discount. In
other words, although it is true that one cannot serve more than
one life sentence, one can be incarcerated for an extended period
of time if life sentences are served consecutively, that is one
after the other.
If a person were able to apply for parole after the end of 15 or
25 years, depending on the precise circumstance, and there were
more than one murder or more violence surrounding the event, the
penalty for all the other surrounding events would have been paid
at the same time as that for the longest event because the
longest sentence before one can get parole in Canada is 25 years.
The government is out of touch with the Canadians with whom I
speak in coffee shops in my constituency and with whom my
colleagues speak on the streets of Calgary. Most members in the
House, and I dare say even a few Liberals when they talk to their
constituents, must know that the constituents are after some
feeling of public safety. The government is not giving any sense
of public safety.
I get back to the bill at hand. Bill C-219 takes a look at the
issue of someone, during the course of committing an indictable
offence, stealing and making use of a vehicle. It basically says
this must be put in place as a deterrent. The fact is that it is
only for one year. Because of the parole system, if a person has
a one year sentence it is quite possible to be out on day parole
within one-sixth of a year, in other words within two months.
The government is not even involved in truth in sentencing. It
says they will get one year if they use a car for a joy ride.
Such is being used, for example, in Cornwall as we speak where
people involved in smuggling weapons, guns, liquor, drugs and
tobacco were using vehicles for high speed chases. All sorts of
things are going on. As a result of the sentencing regime under
this government, even for a one year sentence the offender upon
conviction would not get one year because that is the maximum.
Even if he or she got the maximum, the offender would potentially
be out on day parole within two months.
This is why my colleague brought the bill before the House. In
his usual thoughtful manner he will have worked through the
process and will have taken direction from the people responsible
for public safety, safety on our streets.
Also as solicitor general critic I must say that I have a deep
concern about the entire issue of tracking vehicles. We know
that stolen vehicles end up at the Canadian police information
centre on CPIC. If a police officer sees a vehicle he or she can
access CPIC to find out the status of the vehicle. If the
vehicle is stolen or there is something irregular about it, it
will show up on CPIC.
1740
It is my position on behalf of our party that there be an
upgrading of the CPIC system so that vehicle identification
numbers, not just for stolen vehicles but indeed for all vehicles
in Canada, would be available to police officers. If Bill C-219
is enacted, CPIC and the vehicle registration system would become
part of bringing Bill C-219 into full force and effect.
Mr. Hec Clouthier (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I stand to debate
Bill C-219. It is a little frustrating the hon. member for Wild
Rose is not here to speak to it.
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member knows it is contrary
to the rules to refer to the absence of hon. members. I am
certain his mistake was inadvertent. Nevertheless, I would urge
him not to pursue the idea of who is here and who is not. That
is contrary to the rules.
Mr. Hec Clouthier: I must say that the bill of the member
for Wild Rose, Bill C-219, is something that we on this side of
the House cannot agree with because of the way in which once
again the Reform Party, in its eternal wisdom, has decided to
handle minor acts of indiscretion such as joy riding.
I do not know about the riding of the member for Wild Rose. I
know on occasion he likes to play sheriff. Perhaps some of his
constituents would be absolutely petrified to go joy riding.
However, in my riding, the great riding of
Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, on occasion people have gone joy
riding. As a matter of a fact a cousin of mine went joy riding
one time. I know the hon. member from Kootenay would probably
say it was the hon. member for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke who
did it, but it was a cousin of mine.
Should the government incarcerate a person for a one year term
because of a minor indiscretion? Goodness gracious, members of
the Reform Party continually come forward with notions on how to
mete out justice. They would throw them in jail and throw away
the key. They would not worry about the person. They would not
worry about the indiscretion. They would throw them in the
slammer and they would be done with them: out of sight, out of
mind.
That is not the way we on this side of the House would handle
the judicial system. The hon. member for Kootenay—Columbia
somehow extrapolated from joy riding to death. The little
munchkin is at it again. If members opposite want to listen to
the great justice that is being done by the Liberal Party of
Canada, all they have to do is pay attention for a short while. I
do not use that in a derogatory connotation against my hon.
friend on the other side.
It is absolutely disastrous that the Reform Party would
continually mete out something like Bill C-219. I know the hon.
member for Kootenay—Columbia said that the member for Wild Rose
was a tireless worker. In my estimation he is rather tiresome
when he puts forth agendas such as this one. This is not what
the Canadian judicial system is all about.
An hon. member: The police chiefs want it.
Mr. Hec Clouthier: The police chiefs do not want it.
Reform Party members are infamous for standing up and saying
there is one police chief, one person, one child or one priest
and extrapolating that to include the entire Dominion of Canada.
That is absolutely ludicrous and they know it. That is what I was
getting to when I said “tiresome”. It is tiresome that they
would bring forth that type of logic.
1745
In our view the objectives of the private member's bill now
before the House are already well served by the tools provided by
the common law principles of sentencing and legislation which is
currently in place. The hon. member for
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough would agree with me because he
has a legal background. He knows that the Reform Party would
bring into place scurrilous innuendo against the judicial system.
That party is trying to tell judges exactly what to do. What is
the Reform Party's agenda? If a person is not elected they do
not know what they are talking about. Once again it is an attack
on judges and the judicial system. My goodness gracious, I do
not know how some members of the Reform Party actually got
elected. I think they were appointed.
Bill C-219, an act to amend the Criminal Code, would create an
indictable offence for using a stolen motor vehicle in the
commission, attempted commission or flight following the
commission of an offence. If found guilty, everyone who commits
this indictable offence would be liable to imprisonment for a
term of one year, to be served consecutively with any other
punishment imposed arising out of the same offence.
What kind of gibberish is that? To begin with, it is flawed.
Even the notion of the bill is flawed. The summary of the bill
is flawed. Under Bill C-41, as everyone in this House knows,
including the hon. member opposite, we have already looked into
this. We have already done justice to this particular matter.
Why would the member want to bring up Bill C-219? Why the hon.
member for Wild Rose would propose this particular piece of
legislation is beyond my belief and beyond the belief of most
Canadians. The way we handle justice in this country is not by
throwing people in jail and throwing away the key. But that, in
the infinite wisdom of the Reform Party, is the way to handle the
situation.
We on this side of the House believe in rehabilitation. We do
not believe in complete incarceration just for the simple reason
of it. We cannot qualify it. Reform Party members know that.
They know they cannot put a maximum or a minimum on sentencing.
That is up to the judge's discretion. We cannot do that.
An hon. member: You don't know what you are talking
about.
Mr. Hec Clouthier: Mr. Speaker, far be it for me to
respond to the hon. members opposite, but if anyone does not know
what they are talking about it is the hon. member's party on the
other side.
That is the party whose leader came out on the front page of a
very reputable paper saying “Guess what, fellow Canadians,
fellow Reformers, the Reform Party can't win so we are going to
have to form a new party”. That is unbelievable. The captain
of the ship is saying “Listen, if we get on this ship it is
going to sink”. Members opposite are on a sinking ship. They
want to join the Conservative Party, which has already said it
does not want them. The NDP does not want them. My goodness
gracious, I just do not know where the Reform Party is coming
from.
This is the type of thing Canadian people do not want. The
Reform Party, with its self-serving demagoguery and its
sanctimonious attitude, believes it knows what is best for the
entire country. Under this—
Mr. Jim Abbott: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I am sure that somewhere in this blather we are going to get some
relevance. I wonder if we could have some.
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member began by talking
about the bill and he seems to have got on to the Reform Party.
I know that perhaps he intends to talk about the Reform agenda in
relation to the bill and I think it might be helpful if he did so
to keep us on the straight and narrow.
Mr. Hec Clouthier: Mr. Speaker, I apologize to you, but I
certainly do not apologize to the party opposite. Correct me if
I am wrong, and we can check Hansard, but whenever the hon.
member speaks he makes very vituperative remarks about the great
Liberal Party. I took a little offence to that. But I will go
on to the end.
If while in flight—and the hon. member was in full flight,
although he was not in as full flight as the hon. member for Wild
Rose when he discussed this bill—in a stolen motor vehicle
following the commission of an offence the offender posed a
danger to the lives of persons—and I might add that the hon.
member for Kootenay—Columbia could pose a danger as I have
actually seen him drive a motor vehicle—for example due to
excessive speed, this too would be considered an aggravating
factor meriting a harsher sentence.
1750
The sentencing provisions contained in the Criminal Code also
enable judges to exercise their discretion to impose consecutive
sentencing upon offenders where appropriate. Our sentencing is
comprehensive and provides the flexibility needed to tailor
sentences to the factual circumstances of the offender's conduct.
The proposals contained in Bill C-219 are simply not required to
address the conduct of offenders using a stolen motor vehicle in
the commission, attempted commission or flight following the
commission of an offence. We already have the tools at our
disposal to deal with this situation.
Bill C-219 is flawed. Members opposite know it. The Canadian
public knows it. We on this side of the House will certainly
know it and we will not participate or partake in such a flawed
bill because we know what is right for the Canadian public.
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to speak in support of Bill C-219, an act to amend the
Criminal Code with respect to using or operating a stolen motor
vehicle in the commission of an offence.
It is important that we understand that Bill C-219 deals exactly
with that. I will repeat that for members opposite because they
seem to have missed the point. It is an act to amend the
Criminal Code with respect to using or operating a stolen motor
vehicle in the commission of an offence.
I commend the hon. member for Wild Rose. Although we have not
always agreed on remedies for the justice system, there are many
problems in our justice system and I agree that the Liberal
government is not always there for Canadians to strengthen the
Criminal Code. Tougher provisions are needed in many places.
As mentioned by previous speakers, the bill would amend section
334 of the Criminal Code. The purpose of the amendment is to
classify those found guilty of operating or using a motor vehicle
that a person has stolen or knows has been stolen while
committing an indictable offence, during flight or attempting to
commit an offence. It is fairly simple legislation that is being
proposed. All we have to do is stick to the facts.
The sentence for such an offence would be a term of imprisonment
for one year. It would also require that the sentence be served
consecutively of any other punishment if it arises out of the
same set or series of events that contributed to the conviction
for the first offence.
All of that is to say in common parlance that there would be
greater emphasis placed on an offence that was committed while
using a stolen vehicle. In short, Bill C-219 would act as a
greater deterrent for such offences. Certainly it would be
commendable for this type of legislation to come from the
Parliament of Canada.
I commend the hon. member's efforts in this regard and I am
supportive of the bill. This is a positive measure that the
member for Wild Rose brings forward because it addresses two key
areas in which there is need for improvement in our Criminal
Code. It would toughen the criminal sanctions for those
individuals who use a stolen vehicle to assist in the commission
of a criminal act. This would be a welcome change because it
would additionally punish criminals for the additional steps they
have taken, namely to have stolen a vehicle to commit another
offence.
The second area of the intended amendment proposed in section
334.1(2), which is very much a truth in sentencing provision,
ensures that the sentence imposed on the criminal, mainly the
driver, would be served consecutively. That is, it would not be
simply dealt away, which is often done in criminal proceedings by
a plea bargain. The sentence would be cumulative. It would be
served consecutively as opposed to concurrently. This would send
a strong message to the thousands of Canadians who lose their
vehicles through theft or someone who would commit a robbery and
forcibly take their vehicles. It would result in greater
accountability and would certainly send a message to the criminal
element.
1755
It is important for everyone to understand that when a vehicle
is stolen it is often damaged and often never recovered. The
person the crime is committed against is greatly inconvenienced.
People experience a psychological feeling of invasion when their
property is taken or damaged. It is similar to when a person's
home is invaded. The purpose of the hon. member's motion is to
amend the code to put greater emphasis on this type of offence. I
believe it to be a positive one. I would therefore hope there is
support at third reading for Bill C-284 brought forward by the
member for Calgary Centre.
Those of us on this side of the House, at least those who are
interested enough in this bill to speak on it here today,
certainly see that voting in favour of this type of legislation
is a deterrent to the very thing the hon. member had brought
forth.
No matter how well meaning, legislation will go nowhere without
the ability to implement and enforce it. I would therefore like
to outline some of my concerns with respect to the government's
persistence in underfunding a host of law enforcement issues. The
solicitor general has often stated publicly that public safety is
a strategy and a priority for the government. Instead of talking
perhaps the solicitor general could also do a lot to demonstrate
that commitment to public safety by supporting legislation such
as the initiative brought forward by the member for Wild Rose and
by paying greater attention to what our police community is
telling him. Quite bluntly, police officers are getting the
shaft from the Liberal government.
According to the information revealed by the government's own
organized crime committee last April, the national police service
needs an additional $200 million over the next four years or it
will functionally expire. That will have a great impact on every
part of the country. We have already seen a situation evolve
where large detachments of the RCMP are underfunded. The
solicitor general and the Liberal government decided to cut $74.1
million from the RCMP's organized crime budget.
This is not about leadership or providing resources for the law
enforcement community. It is quite the contrary. When you cut
13% from the budget in one fiscal year what do you expect the
people who are supposed to uphold the government and the law in
this country to do? The RCMP is not the only police force that
feels the effect. Municipal and provincial police forces are
inevitably forced to pick up the slack. Many of these forces are
already burdened by the abandonment of the ports police and are
struggling to fill the void left by this government's axe.
We need a real commitment to law enforcement, not just talk, not
just debate in the Chamber but real legislation. The government
has to bring in legislative initiatives if we are to see real
concrete improvements. I applaud the member for Wild Rose for
taking such an initiative. it is quite disturbing to think the
government would not embrace such a positive initiative on the
member's part. I would expect the government to support this
legislation since it is votable and as we in the Conservative
Party will be supporting it.
Mr. Richard M. Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley,
Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-219 today
on behalf of my colleague from Wild Rose. I listened to the rant
of the member for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke. It was very
clear he had no understanding of what the bill is all about. As
I listened to him I was reminded of an old saying from many years
ago that if you stare at something long enough and hard enough,
you begin to take on some of the characteristics of what you are
staring at. Considering the long career in harness racing of
member for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, I see there is a lot of
truth to that saying. He has obviously spent a lot of time
staring at the back end of a horse.
Mr. Hec Clouthier: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. On behalf of Standardbred Canada, of which I am proud to
be a member, and on behalf of the horse racing fraternity across
this country, I take exception to the hon. member insinuating
that there could be a member for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke who
is a horse's ass.
1800
The Deputy Speaker: I do not think the hon. member went
that far. I am sure if he had he would have been called to order
by the Chair. I am sure he would not have wanted to suggest any
such thing.
Mr. Richard M. Harris: Mr. Speaker, if the member for
Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke believes he is a horse's ass I will
grant him that.
Getting back to Bill C-219, it was obvious the member did not
understand what he was talking about. The concept of this bill
put forward by the member for Wild Rose originated in August 1996
at the annual meeting of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of
Police. One of the resolutions that came out of that meeting was
the unanimous consent to add a minimum jail sentence when a
stolen vehicle is used in the commission of a crime.
Bill C-219 would amend the Criminal Code to provide for a
minimum sentence to be levied when someone used a stolen vehicle
in the commission of a crime. There is not rocket science about
that but the Liberals have a hard time understanding what this
bill is about. This would simply put the police chiefs'
resolution into practice.
The member for Wild Rose did receive a letter from the Canadian
Police Association. For those Liberals who do not know, these
are the frontline workers who deal with crime on a daily basis
and are witness to crime committed using a stolen vehicle. They
say to the member for Wild Rose: “The measures proposed in Bill
C-219 are therefore necessary to address this public safety
concern and we appreciate and support your efforts in this
regard”.
The last Liberal member who spoke said that support from the
Canadian police chiefs and the Canadian Police Association did
not exist. I am happy to inform him that it does exist in a
letter of support for this bill.
Let me deal with another statement. The member for
Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke said we should not be hard on
someone who has had a minor indiscretion and steals a vehicle and
goes for a joyride. I have never heard such a ridiculous
statement in my life. Does the member know that there are many
people killed in this country by people who have had, in his
words, some minor indiscretions? They have stolen a vehicle,
gone for a joyride only to wipeout some pedestrian on a street
corner, or on a crosswalk, or slam head on into another vehicle
and kill someone. Does he understand that when he makes that
statement? I find it pretty hard to take statements like that
considering the consequences of this so-called minor
indiscretions.
He also says the Canadian judicial system does not want or does
not need an amendment to the Criminal Code like this. He says
that in his opinion and in the opinion of the government
Canadians are well served by what is in the Criminal Code now.
The Criminal Code does not, even in Bill C-41 which he talked
about and which I do not think he understood either, provide for
an additional sentence to be levied against someone who commits a
crime using a stolen vehicle. It does provide for an additional
minimum sentence for someone who uses a firearm in the commission
of a crime.
Threatening with a firearm, using a vehicle or using any other
type of device in a commission of a crime and being a threat to
public safety, should there not be a provision to address that
and to provide not only a penalty but perhaps deterrence? Stolen
vehicles in this country are at an epidemic stage. Around 20% of
all vehicles stolen are stolen for the purposes of committing a
crime. They are used as get away vehicles or for whatever
purpose.
1805
While the government may make light of the member for Wild
Rose's private member's bill, I think it is a little misinformed
about the statistics. It is also misinformed about the opinion of
the police who are out there on the streets every day. It is
also misinformed about the Canadian Association of Chiefs of
Police and the support it has for the bill.
Since 1988 auto thefts have grown about 80%, another 9% in 1996
alone. This is the eighth straight year of dramatic increase in
the theft of vehicles.
The primary motivations for stealing cars or trucks are
joyriding, transportation for criminal purposes, breaking and
entering, robbery, drive-by shootings, or they simply strip the
vehicles for parts.
This costs in the hundreds of millions of dollars every year to
the provinces. I think the government has an opportunity here to
provide not only a penalty but perhaps deterrence. Deterrence and
penalties are foreign words to the Liberal government. We have
seen it and are seeing it in its approach to the impaired driving
issue.
I want to go to that because we are talking about deterrence and
penalties. The justice committee has a mandate to amend the
Criminal Code to enhance deterrence to impaired driving and
ensure the penalties reflect the seriousness of the crime.
Yesterday, I understand, someone was arrested who was drunk. The
person was handcuffed and put in a police car. Somehow the
person got the handcuffs in front of them, stole the police
cruiser while intoxicated, took off down the highway, smashed
into another car and killed two people. This was in Quebec.
Under the Liberal philosophy on how we should treat this person,
it is not their fault. They were obviously discriminated against
in their childhood and it is society to blame, not the person.
I just hope the mandate received by the justice committee to
amend the Criminal Code to enhance deterrence and assess
appropriate penalties to impaired drivers is somehow recognized
in the next few weeks. I do have my doubts, given what has
happened thus far.
I think it was absolutely highly irresponsible of the member for
Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke to refer to the stealing of a
vehicle for the purpose of joyriding as some sort of brief
indiscretion, considering the carnage that has been caused by
just such an act. He should apologize to the families of the
victims who have been killed by joyriders and those who have been
left with permanent injuries as a result of minor indiscretions
by joyriders. He should be ashamed of himself for making a
statement like that in the House. It proves that if we look at
something long enough we will take on the characteristics of it.
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is indeed
an honour to add to the debate this evening.
It is interesting how one would react to this issue. We have
seen pretty well both ends of the spectrum on this reaction.
There are those who think that when a young person steals a car,
particularly a person too young to even have a driver's licence,
it is just one of those things that kids do. Let us not get too
excited about it. Let us just carry on. Then there are others
who view it much more seriously.
1810
What I would like to do in the few minutes I have available is
talk briefly about the attitude that leads up to this. For many
years I have been involved in teaching children. As many members
know, I was involved for many years as part of a children's camp.
Part of our program was to teach them morals and how to behave
properly. I also taught for many years in our church in what is
called family Bible hour. We tried to relate life decisions to
some broader principles.
One of the things I emphasized over and over and in which I
strongly believe is that there is not a single person who at any
age suddenly one day goes out and commits a serious crime. I am
of the conviction that is first practised in one's mind. What
one thinks about one becomes. It has been my observation and my
experience. I will not give any details but I will shock and
surprise members by indicating that I am not perfect.
An hon. member: You're kidding.
Mr. Ken Epp: No, I am not. I have done some things which
at my age now I regret.
Mr. Jim Abbott: Next you will be saying there is no Santa
Claus.
Mr. Ken Epp: The jury is still out on that.
I have done some things that I now regret, thankfully not many
and thankfully not any that are very serious, but I still regret
them. In each instance when I look back at my own experience and
look at some of the things other young people did both in my
generation and in the generation I have observed as I have grown
older, I believe they practised first in their mind what they
finally then put their hands and their feet to.
I look at this as a much broader picture. I believe we need to
make sure young people growing up and young children like my
grandchildren who range from age six on down learn to think
correctly when making decisions. When I think of young people
taking a vehicle, there is something behind that which disturbs
me because in the home I grew up in my parents would not have
tolerated that.
I will tell members about one of the things I regret. This was
a minor prank that young people do. Back in the days when I was
young it was not as difficult to steal a car as it is now. The
electronics were different and I was sharp in those areas. We
used to move my uncle's car. He would park it in one place and
we would move it maybe just to the other side of the building.
When he came out we would laugh at him because he was thinking he
had forgotten where he had left his car. He would then go
looking for it and eventually find it. That was about as serious
as it got.
We need to treat with great seriousness the problem of a young
person being willing to steal a car, drive it away wilfully and
to not have any intention of bringing it back. If somebody
happens to notice that he or she should not be driving this car,
the police give chase. They then become ready to enter into the
excitement of a high speed chase without the experience of
knowing how to handle a car. By doing so, they put other
people's lives at risk and risk damaging the car. This is very
serious.
I highly commend my colleague for bringing this forward. I
really wish members would support it because it is indeed a
worthy bill.
1815
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: It being 6.15 p.m., the time provided for
debate has expired.
Pursuant to the order made earlier today, the motion is deemed
to have been put and a recorded division deemed demanded and
deferred until Tuesday, March 23, 1999, at the end of the time
provided for Private Members' Business.
ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
[English]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to
have been moved.
VETERANS AFFAIRS
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
Liberal government's treatment of many Canadian veterans is
simply appalling.
On November 24, 1998 in the House of Commons I asked the
Minister of Veterans Affairs to finally commit to a just
settlement with Canada's merchant marine. I had hoped he would
make some commitment to act. I had expected that he might
indicate a willingness to do something. Instead the response of
the minister was simply that he would listen.
It is not the time to listen. It is the time to act and to make
a commitment to these Canadians deprived of justice by this
government. I have become thoroughly appalled at the Liberal
government's handling of this matter and of the matter of
Canadian veterans who were prisoners of war at the Buchenwald
concentration camp.
These brave Canadians played a central role in Canada's war
effort. Many lost their lives and their health for our country.
Families suffered. Communities suffered. As a result our
country was poorer for the loss of so many merchant mariners, yet
so much richer for the role they played in bringing victory to
all of us.
This government has seen fit to provide an ex gratia payment of
$23,940 each to Hong Kong veterans who were Japanese prisoners of
war. This payment was promised just last December and strikes me
as at least an effort to achieve a just settlement.
It is simply a disgrace that this government has betrayed
Canada's merchant mariners by refusing to compensate them for the
discrimination the merchant mariners faced upon their return home
from serving Canada's war effort.
This issue is to be raised tomorrow at the House of Commons
veterans affairs committee on which I sit. It is disgraceful
that this government has abjectly refused to negotiate a
settlement with these Canadians. While I am glad that the
committee may make some headway where the government has failed,
it is unacceptable that this government has repeatedly rejected
calls for negotiation on compensation.
Assuming that the committee comes forth with a recommendation, I
worry that this government will then take its time to respond and
make an announcement.
How many more honourable Canadian merchant mariners must die
before this Liberal government does the right thing and provides
just compensation? How many? It has been estimated that
merchant mariners are dying at the rate of about 12 per month.
From where my New Democratic colleagues and I sit, one more death
before proper compensation is provided is far too much.
Finally, I would like to take this opportunity to encourage the
government to move to improve the health care package available
to all veterans, especially those whose advanced years make them
particularly vulnerable.
As I conclude, I am pleased to take a moment to pay tribute to
Gordon Olmstead, a man who fought for his country and then
continued to fight for what was right for the merchant mariners.
The efforts of Gordon Olmstead and others like him helped bring
about Bill C-61 and helped restore for the merchant mariners
their rightful place in history.
Canada's veterans deserve nothing but the best.
Mr. Bob Wood (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Veterans
Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to encourage the
hon. member for Halifax West, if he gets a chance, to take a more
in-depth look at this issue. As he stated just a few moments ago,
he is going to get that chance tomorrow at committee starting at
9 a.m.
For example, contrary to some reports, merchant navy veterans
were eligible throughout the war for disability pensions for
injuries sustained as a consequence of enemy action. At the end
of the second world war, merchant navy veterans qualified for
most of the post-war benefits provided to armed forces veterans.
What they did not qualify for as a rule were the
re-establishment benefits and there was a good reason for that.
The reason lay with the fact that the government intended to keep
the merchant marine operational. Canada needed experienced
mariners and offering incentives to quit the merchant marine was
hardly the way to do that.
By 1948 and 1949 it was clear that Canada could not sustain its
merchant fleet and layoffs began. Unemployment insurance
benefits were available and other benefits were awarded as a
consequence of those layoffs, including access to vocational
training.
I will add that armed forces veterans did not qualify for
unemployment insurance when they were demobilized at the end of
the war.
1820
I remind all members of the House that Bill C-61, which deals
with issues identified by merchant navy veterans including the
transfer of current merchant navy veterans clauses to the main
veterans act, received third reading and is now before the
Senate.
I also take this opportunity to remind the hon. member for
Halifax West that the Standing Committee on National Defence and
Veterans Affairs has agreed, as he stated, to consider the
question of compensation for past differences in the treatment of
merchant navy veterans under the veterans benefit legislation.
The committee will begin its study on the issue tomorrow and I
look forward to seeing the hon. member there.
TOBACCO
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to explore further the
government's strategy, if it has any, on dealing with smoking
among young people. I have raised this matter on numerous
occasions. My question on November 18 about Bill S-13 afforded
me another opportunity to try to discover if the government had
any kind of comprehensive strategy.
Are we dealing with words, rhetoric and old promises? Is there
actually a serious plan in place to reduce smoking among young
people and to deal with a very serious health problem that costs
all of us an enormous amount of money and loss of health?
Bill S-13 offered the government a very constructive proposal,
an opportunity to put a levy on the industry per carton in order
to ensure money was available to be directed entirely into
anti-smoking initiatives and into preventing young people from
smoking in the first place.
At that time the government used procedural wrangling to argue
that the bill should not be before the House. It succeeded. It
also promised at that time that it would take the issue further
and come back to the House with alternatives for putting in place
something comparable to Bill S-13 which adhered to the principles
of the proposal by Senator Kenny.
There has been nothing, not a word. There is no sign that a
process is in place. We do not know if the Liberal caucus has
even met on it as was promised and we are waiting anxiously to
see what will happen. In the meantime there is a growing litany
of broken promises on the part of the government. It keeps
promising that money will be spent. It did so in the 1993
election and in the 1997 election. There was a promise for $100
million to be spent on prevention of smoking among young people.
To date, we still believe that about $200,000 has been spent.
There is more rhetoric in the budget but no evidence of anything
happening. We also know that on other fronts the government had
opportunities to act and failed to do so.
As I mentioned before, with respect to tobacco taxes we know
that American tobacco prices have skyrocketed as a result of the
November 1998 settlement between the United States government and
tobacco companies. Cigarettes now cost as much as $15 more in
American states bordering Ontario and Quebec. This means that
the smuggling threat the government always talks about, which
caused the reduction in tobacco taxes, has been virtually
eliminated.
The budget offered the government an opportunity to act. It
failed to do so. The government also made a great fanfare about
Bill C-42 and about how it was working on eliminating tobacco
sponsorships. It was supposed to have included a grandfathering
effect, with tobacco companies forbidden to initiate new
sponsorships.
Lo and behold, just a few days ago, du Maurier put out a press
release bragging about 234 arts groups receiving funding for the
coming year and many of them being first time recipients. That
is contrary to the spirit of Bill C-42.
Whether we are talking about taxation policy, whether we are
talking about education programs or whether we are talking about
restrictions on advertising, the government has failed to act. It
has provided nothing but rhetoric and disjointed ad hoc
suggestions without a comprehensive strategy.
What is desperately needed today for the future of our kids and
for the sake of our health care system is a comprehensive,
concrete plan of action.
Ms. Eleni Bakopanos (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the member for Winnipeg North Centre raises a very important
issue. We agree that there has to be a comprehensive global
strategy.
1825
[Translation]
That is why we have put in place a comprehensive four pronged
strategy that includes the legislative and regulatory aspect,
enforcement, research and public awareness, to protect our
children's health.
We have adopted some of the toughest tobacco control measures in
the world, particularly with regard to restricting access to
tobacco products for young people. Canada is a world leader in
the regulation of tobacco products, with new proposals dealing
with labelling, prevention and reporting.
[English]
We are working with provincial governments to increase
compliance with the law eliminating cigarette sales to Canadians
under 18 years of age. We are increasing our research efforts
including monitoring and surveillance activities.
Most important, we have allocated $100 million to tobacco
control over the next five years. This will enable us to
encourage and support Canadians, particularly young people, in
their efforts not to smoke. This will include a media campaign
using ideas that will work in the Canadian context to
counterbalance the steady flow of images that make smoking seem
natural and desirable when it is anything but.
[Translation]
We are looking at all the tools available to us to discourage
people from starting to smoke and to encourage those who do
smoke to quit.
[English]
The Deputy Speaker: The motion to adjourn the House is
now deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly this House stands
adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order
24(1).
(The House adjourned at 6.26 p.m.)